Q: If an ability or rule generates an additional hit, (e.g. the
Imperial Siege Masters Chapter Tactic), do these additional hits
gain any other benefits that would apply to an attack on a hit
roll of 6 (e.g. an Infiltrator’s marksman bolt carbine)?
A: Yes, the additional hits are treated as having rolled
the same value as the dice roll that generated them.
So that's an interesting FAQ, I've heard some people say those additional hits don't confer any extra benefits, I guess that clears it up.
Really cool impact. I had actually sent in this exact question as I was pretty certain the Marksman carbine for Infiltrators didn't interact that way with Siege Masters, but I wanted it to lol
Now it does! Infiltrators look pretty good for my Fists now.
Gunrunner1775 wrote: that 4++ makes the impulsor stupid hard to kill,
on "average" will take 12+/- lascannons to take out an impulsor in one round of shooting (not factoring in re-rolls) (opponent could get lucky, but that's all part of the game)
my opponent also stated, its more useful to just shoot other more threatening things and ignore the impulsor, wait for impulsors to unload, weather the damage, then have an appropriate counter attack response (for him, was deepstrike inceptors with plasma, with a jump smash captain supporting) his counter attack took out my hellblasters,
we also noted that this tactic will be fantastic vs other elite type armies, but will be nearly useless vs horde type armies,
either way, it is still an extremly brutal alpha strike, not much will survive 20 hellblasters in RF range - 40 shots overcharging, (with nearby captain/lieutenant)
Don't see much purpose in giving a non threatening unit a 4++. Most of the times it's just going to be +1 to your save because ap-2 is the most common AP. Ap -3 does exist but if they want to shoot it at a 100 point impuslor be my guest. I've got redemptors and executioners that really like not getting shot at. Probably going to be taking missles or arrays over the invunes.
Azuza001 wrote: Ok here is a list that i was thinking should cover all my bases for a space marine all comers list.
[spoiler]
Ravenguard Spearhead Detachment
Hq-
Shrike w/ Hero of the chapter : 150 pts
Heavy Support-
Whirlwind w/ castellen launcher : 80 pts
Devistator squad w/ 5 men, 4 with grav cannons, armored cherub : 150 pts
Devistator squad w/ 8 men, 4 with las cannons, armored cherub : 209 pts
Devistator squad w/ 8 men, 4 with las cannons, armored cherub : 209 pts
Troop Transports-
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Ravenguard batallion detachment
Hq-
Librarian w/ null zone, might of heros, jump pack, plasma pistol, armor indominus : 121 pts
Leiutenant w/ stormbolter, power sword, warlord : storm of fire : 66 pts
Troops-
Scout squad w/ 5 men with bolters : 55 pts
Scout squad w/ 5 men with bolters : 55 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Total : 1500 pts and 8cp.
So this is the list you used ? Do you think you have been lucky or no ?
I have difficulties to see how you are supposed to win against a horde army and how you cleant so many guardsmen in 2turns
It is not just the transport. It is the stuff you put in the transport which you need to arrive on time and alive. Being able to put the shield on the transport is bloody amazing. The missile launcher on the other hand is pretty crappy, it is not even a Typhoon.
Impulsors are also even better assualt harassment units than rhinos. After unloading, their job is to fly around and bump into things. With fly, 14" move, and a 4++ they can be insanely annoying and change the output of the game even with 0 damage output.
So FAQ's are up and chaplain dreads get litanies now for whoever was asking a few pages back. Also drop pods have to come in by turn 3 now so no holding pods for late game shenanigans.
McGibs wrote: Impulsors are also even better assualt harassment units than rhinos. After unloading, their job is to fly around and bump into things. With fly, 14" move, and a 4++ they can be insanely annoying and change the output of the game even with 0 damage output.
^ this. the hype is real y'all. They've been MVP in every game I proxy them (except against harlequins lol)
Looking at my models and seeing two squads of inceptors and two supressors squads, I'm having trouble making a list with all these 12" models.. Like the idea, but plasma inceptors feel horribly expensive when we have impulsors and eliminators feeling lot more point efiicient (primaris only). So guys see any place for plasma inceptors when we have so much more intriguing models. I think four jump squads could be handy to cover mobility issues...
Q. A lot of rules apply an effect when resolving an attack, rather than attacks. Does this mean the ability only applies for one single attack? For example, the Masterful Marksmanship Stratagem states ‘Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made with a special issue boltgun by a model in that unit, add 1 to the wound roll.’
A: The attack sequence in the core rules is based on attacks being made one at a time. Therefore the wording of these abilities matches how attacks are resolved in the core rules. The ability would still apply to other attacks made by that unit, so long as it satisfied the requirements laid out in the rule. In the above example, the ability would apply for each attack you make with a special issue boltgun by a model in that unit until the end of the phase.
Q: If an ability or rule generates an additional hit, (e.g. the
Imperial Siege Masters Chapter Tactic), do these additional hits
gain any other benefits that would apply to an attack on a hit
roll of 6 (e.g. an Infiltrator’s marksman bolt carbine)?
A: Yes, the additional hits are treated as having rolled
the same value as the dice roll that generated them.
So that's an interesting FAQ, I've heard some people say those additional hits don't confer any extra benefits, I guess that clears it up.
Really cool impact. I had actually sent in this exact question as I was pretty certain the Marksman carbine for Infiltrators didn't interact that way with Siege Masters, but I wanted it to lol
Now it does! Infiltrators look pretty good for my Fists now.
It's an odd decision as I'm fairly sure they have ruled it the other way in a similar FAQ, but GW has spoken.
Q. A lot of rules apply an effect when resolving an attack, rather than attacks. Does this mean the ability only applies for one single attack? For example, the Masterful Marksmanship Stratagem states ‘Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made with a special issue boltgun by a model in that unit, add 1 to the wound roll.’
A: The attack sequence in the core rules is based on attacks being made one at a time. Therefore the wording of these abilities matches how attacks are resolved in the core rules. The ability would still apply to other attacks made by that unit, so long as it satisfied the requirements laid out in the rule. In the above example, the ability would apply for each attack you make with a special issue boltgun by a model in that unit until the end of the phase.
Chaplain dreadnought can do this now it can Liteny:
S7 base
S8 (his +1S aura)
S9 (+1S litany)
S10 (Might of Heroes)
S12 (Salamanders WT)
x2 (Dreadnought Melee weapon)
S24 boys with A6 on the charge for 24W possible, rerolling 1's in Close combat with two fists. Not bad. And even without the salamanders WT, S20 will reliably wound everything in normal games on a 2+
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Pretty sure there is an FAQ somewhere that says that even on autowound on 6 weapons any generated hits still need to roll to wound but I could be wrong.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Please provide the citation that those additional hits are considered to be 6's.
They are just additional hits, they are not "unmodified hit roll of 6", you still have to roll to wound. But this is not a tactics question this really should have been a YMDC.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Pretty sure there is an FAQ somewhere that says that even on autowound on 6 weapons any generated hits still need to roll to wound but I could be wrong.
No FAQ required. A 6 on those weapons generates a hit that doesn't auto wound and 1 that does.
Thanks for clarifying - was sure it was too good to be true
Insularum wrote: Anyone planning on trying out a termite assault drill now they have angels of death? They seem insanely good for the price now (points not cash), and even if they are just dropping off some cheap bolter tacs, tactical doctrine will be on by the time they show up.
Have GW added a new FAQ or update to give termite assualt drills angles of death?
"Errata
All the updated abilities, wargear profiles and rules clarifications for non-Codex Adeptus Astartes Chapters and the Heretic Astartes – as well as their respective Forge World units – are included here."
The community team epic fail again as the errata doesn't cover the terrmite.
Hooray for FAQ's
Deadly termites and double-hit autowound weapons galore
Azuza001 wrote: Ok here is a list that i was thinking should cover all my bases for a space marine all comers list.
[spoiler]
Ravenguard Spearhead Detachment
Hq-
Shrike w/ Hero of the chapter : 150 pts
Heavy Support-
Whirlwind w/ castellen launcher : 80 pts
Devistator squad w/ 5 men, 4 with grav cannons, armored cherub : 150 pts
Devistator squad w/ 8 men, 4 with las cannons, armored cherub : 209 pts
Devistator squad w/ 8 men, 4 with las cannons, armored cherub : 209 pts
Troop Transports-
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Ravenguard batallion detachment
Hq-
Librarian w/ null zone, might of heros, jump pack, plasma pistol, armor indominus : 121 pts
Leiutenant w/ stormbolter, power sword, warlord : storm of fire : 66 pts
Troops-
Scout squad w/ 5 men with bolters : 55 pts
Scout squad w/ 5 men with bolters : 55 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Total : 1500 pts and 8cp.
So this is the list you used ? Do you think you have been lucky or no ?
I have difficulties to see how you are supposed to win against a horde army and how you cleant so many guardsmen in 2turns
Yes that's the list. I don't think i was particularly lucky, that whirlwind was doing work vs guard squads. 2d6 shots at squad 1 was on average 7 shots, hitting on 3's rerolling thanks to shrike t1 (t2 and 3 strike moved away so didnt give it rerolls), wounding on 2's rerolling 1's thanks to a leiutenant and ap-1 for devastation doctrine all ment i killed 6 guardsmen per squad of 10. I used the fire again strat and targeted a different squad, so 2 squads down by 6 men each. Heavy bolters from tacticals killed 1/2 more off per squad so now each was down to 2 men. Failed moral, thats 20 guardsmen dead. By t2 my tacticals were within 24" so their support fire made up for whirlwind losing full rerolls to hit.
Also each drop pod and marine in the dev squads not holding a las cannon had their shots to contribute.
But really, it was the 2d6 X 2 str 6 ap-1 1dmg shots that was doing the work on killing the guard each turn with everyone else helping out.
It is not just the transport. It is the stuff you put in the transport which you need to arrive on time and alive. Being able to put the shield on the transport is bloody amazing. The missile launcher on the other hand is pretty crappy, it is not even a Typhoon.
Its a 17 point missile with 3 firing modes. It's not incredible but but its better than a regular missle launcher and costs less. The AA stubber isn't bad ether. 4++ is probably the worst option. This is likely the cheapest vehical you are putting on the table. Let them shoot it. Realistically they wont - if you have an executioner or a redemptor and a contemptor - they are going to shoot that instead - I assure you.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Pretty sure there is an FAQ somewhere that says that even on autowound on 6 weapons any generated hits still need to roll to wound but I could be wrong.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Please provide the citation that those additional hits are considered to be 6's.
They are just additional hits, they are not "unmodified hit roll of 6", you still have to roll to wound. But this is not a tactics question this really should have been a YMDC.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Pretty sure there is an FAQ somewhere that says that even on autowound on 6 weapons any generated hits still need to roll to wound but I could be wrong.
No FAQ required. A 6 on those weapons generates a hit that doesn't auto wound and 1 that does.
Thanks for clarifying - was sure it was too good to be true
Insularum wrote: Anyone planning on trying out a termite assault drill now they have angels of death? They seem insanely good for the price now (points not cash), and even if they are just dropping off some cheap bolter tacs, tactical doctrine will be on by the time they show up.
Have GW added a new FAQ or update to give termite assualt drills angles of death?
"Errata
All the updated abilities, wargear profiles and rules clarifications for non-Codex Adeptus Astartes Chapters and the Heretic Astartes – as well as their respective Forge World units – are included here."
The community team epic fail again as the errata doesn't cover the terrmite.
Hooray for FAQ's
Deadly termites and double-hit autowound weapons galore
You want to sort out that wierd quote stack to make a point?
The FAQ still doesn't give termites the required keyword/abilities
The termite still isnt in the index it's it's own download.
TERRAX-PATTERN TERMITE ASSAULT DRILL
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Space
Marines Faction:
‘Angels of Death
This unit has the following abilities: And They Shall Know No Fear,
Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines.’
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Heretic
Astartes Faction:
‘Hateful Assault
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged or performs a Heroic
Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit
until the end of the turn.’
Azuza001 wrote: Ok here is a list that i was thinking should cover all my bases for a space marine all comers list.
[spoiler]
Ravenguard Spearhead Detachment
Hq-
Shrike w/ Hero of the chapter : 150 pts
Heavy Support-
Whirlwind w/ castellen launcher : 80 pts
Devistator squad w/ 5 men, 4 with grav cannons, armored cherub : 150 pts
Devistator squad w/ 8 men, 4 with las cannons, armored cherub : 209 pts
Devistator squad w/ 8 men, 4 with las cannons, armored cherub : 209 pts
Troop Transports-
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Ravenguard batallion detachment
Hq-
Librarian w/ null zone, might of heros, jump pack, plasma pistol, armor indominus : 121 pts
Leiutenant w/ stormbolter, power sword, warlord : storm of fire : 66 pts
Troops-
Scout squad w/ 5 men with bolters : 55 pts
Scout squad w/ 5 men with bolters : 55 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Total : 1500 pts and 8cp.
So this is the list you used ? Do you think you have been lucky or no ?
I have difficulties to see how you are supposed to win against a horde army and how you cleant so many guardsmen in 2turns
Yes that's the list. I don't think i was particularly lucky, that whirlwind was doing work vs guard squads. 2d6 shots at squad 1 was on average 7 shots, hitting on 3's rerolling thanks to shrike t1 (t2 and 3 strike moved away so didnt give it rerolls), wounding on 2's rerolling 1's thanks to a leiutenant and ap-1 for devastation doctrine all ment i killed 6 guardsmen per squad of 10. I used the fire again strat and targeted a different squad, so 2 squads down by 6 men each. Heavy bolters from tacticals killed 1/2 more off per squad so now each was down to 2 men. Failed moral, thats 20 guardsmen dead. By t2 my tacticals were within 24" so their support fire made up for whirlwind losing full rerolls to hit.
Also each drop pod and marine in the dev squads not holding a las cannon had their shots to contribute.
But really, it was the 2d6 X 2 str 6 ap-1 1dmg shots that was doing the work on killing the guard each turn with everyone else helping out.
^That's dope. I'm looking forward to getting my recent Thunderfire Cannon conversions painted and onto the table. Those'll be averaging 8 S5 AP-2 hits with Devastator Doctrine. I have Whirlwinds too. An artillery detachment will be fun-times, methinks.
TERRAX-PATTERN TERMITE ASSAULT DRILL
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Space
Marines Faction:
‘Angels of Death
This unit has the following abilities: And They Shall Know No Fear,
Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines.’
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Heretic
Astartes Faction:
‘Hateful Assault
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged or performs a Heroic
Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit
until the end of the turn.’
So rather than updated the downloadable PDF they decided to go with a downloadable FAQ PDF to a downloadable PDF datasheet.
Seriously this is top quality work even by GW's standard.
Did they let the community team wright this FAQ/Errata or have they just stopped giving a damn about 8th edition and have all moved onto 8.5 or 9th or whatever new shiney project they have.
TERRAX-PATTERN TERMITE ASSAULT DRILL
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Space
Marines Faction:
‘Angels of Death
This unit has the following abilities: And They Shall Know No Fear,
Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines.’
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Heretic
Astartes Faction:
‘Hateful Assault
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged or performs a Heroic
Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit
until the end of the turn.’
So rather than updated the downloadable PDF they decided to go with a downloadable FAQ PDF to a downloadable PDF datasheet.
Seriously this is top quality work even by GW's standard.
Did they let the community team wright this FAQ/Errata or have they just stopped giving a damn about 8th edition and have all moved onto 8.5 or 9th or whatever new shiney project they have.
I like how the bitching went from NO RULES WAAAAAH directly to RULES IN WEIRD PLACE WAAAAAH
I just noticed a few things i thought i would share....
Thunderfire cannons are bs2+ in the codex now, thats damn good. 2 of them in an armored company will make an incredible little repair station. On top of all the dakka they can put out.
Also a phobos hq with the armor indominus and is ravenguard gets a 0+ save outside 12" so he can run around and do whatever the hell he wants lol. Not sure how useful it is, but i find it very funny.
At a flgs tournament this weekend i will be trying out some eleminator squads with las fusils. I am thinking 2 in a squas with the srg equipped with the instigator bolt carbine for some mid field fire support. Srg gives the 2 las +1 to hit and wound, and if something gets close to charge they can simply move back during overwatch. However the more i look at i wonder if they would not work better as a single srg with the las and the other 2 as snipers to soak up any wounds that may show up. Thoughts on these guys would be helpful, i am dropping a dev las team for 2 squads of them.
TERRAX-PATTERN TERMITE ASSAULT DRILL
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Space
Marines Faction:
‘Angels of Death
This unit has the following abilities: And They Shall Know No Fear,
Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines.’
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Heretic
Astartes Faction:
‘Hateful Assault
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged or performs a Heroic
Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit
until the end of the turn.’
So rather than updated the downloadable PDF they decided to go with a downloadable FAQ PDF to a downloadable PDF datasheet.
Seriously this is top quality work even by GW's standard.
Did they let the community team wright this FAQ/Errata or have they just stopped giving a damn about 8th edition and have all moved onto 8.5 or 9th or whatever new shiney project they have.
I like how the bitching went from NO RULES WAAAAAH directly to RULES IN WEIRD PLACE WAAAAAH
Exactly. It's better they did this than nothing at all, and the PDFs are free.
GRANTED some of these things shouldn't be issues at all but oh well.
TERRAX-PATTERN TERMITE ASSAULT DRILL
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Space
Marines Faction:
‘Angels of Death
This unit has the following abilities: And They Shall Know No Fear,
Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines.’
Add the following ability to this datasheet if it is taken from the Heretic
Astartes Faction:
‘Hateful Assault
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged or performs a Heroic
Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit
until the end of the turn.’
So rather than updated the downloadable PDF they decided to go with a downloadable FAQ PDF to a downloadable PDF datasheet.
Seriously this is top quality work even by GW's standard.
Did they let the community team wright this FAQ/Errata or have they just stopped giving a damn about 8th edition and have all moved onto 8.5 or 9th or whatever new shiney project they have.
I like how the bitching went from NO RULES WAAAAAH directly to RULES IN WEIRD PLACE WAAAAAH
I'm glad they are updating the rules but it's now got to the point were a number od the more casual players I play against have hit the point of just being over the endless stream of FAQ and Errata that they find confusing and just excessive.
Up untill now I've not found it too silly but when your issuing free downloadable ERRATA to free downloadable datasheets instead of just updating the datasheet and puting in a note that a new copy is available I can see a bit more of why they are fed up.
Azuza001 wrote: I just noticed a few things i thought i would share....
Thunderfire cannons are bs2+ in the codex now, thats damn good. 2 of them in an armored company will make an incredible little repair station. On top of all the dakka they can put out.
Also a phobos hq with the armor indominus and is ravenguard gets a 0+ save outside 12" so he can run around and do whatever the hell he wants lol. Not sure how useful it is, but i find it very funny.
At a flgs tournament this weekend i will be trying out some eleminator squads with las fusils. I am thinking 2 in a squas with the srg equipped with the instigator bolt carbine for some mid field fire support. Srg gives the 2 las +1 to hit and wound, and if something gets close to charge they can simply move back during overwatch. However the more i look at i wonder if they would not work better as a single srg with the las and the other 2 as snipers to soak up any wounds that may show up. Thoughts on these guys would be helpful, i am dropping a dev las team for 2 squads of them.
I’m pretty sure that save rolls of 1 always fail regardless.
Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"
GreatGranpapy wrote: Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"
Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.
So after all the talk about how great/gamebreaking Thunderhammer Intercessor Sgt's would be, has anyone actually tried it out?
Just picked up a box of Vanguard Vets for those sweet TH's, wanted to see how the "Hidden Powerfist 2.0" performs before I start bashing something together.
My thoughts would be 4 of these on MSU squads, backed up by some Captains/Chaplains who also know how to dish out the hurt.
Fisheyes wrote: So after all the talk about how great/gamebreaking Thunderhammer Intercessor Sgt's would be, has anyone actually tried it out?
Just picked up a box of Vanguard Vets for those sweet TH's, wanted to see how the "Hidden Powerfist 2.0" performs before I start bashing something together.
My thoughts would be 4 of these on MSU squads, backed up by some Captains/Chaplains who also know how to dish out the hurt.
I've been wanting to, but my fists don't have a supplement yet so no dice.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"
Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.
Skyfire is a hidden gem. Especially on a Stalker. The shot count means you are likely to get one of those double damage shots off. It is a good counter to Alaitoc flyers, who will be pretty much lacking any of their shenanigans.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"
Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.
Skyfire is a hidden gem. Especially on a Stalker. The shot count means you are likely to get one of those double damage shots off. It is a good counter to Alaitoc flyers, who will be pretty much lacking any of their shenanigans.
Also don't forget - the strat also applies to your HKM and your storm bolter. I actually got the double damage proc last weekend on the HKM and I was like..."dang best 6 points I ever spent" as it proceeded to deal 10 damage to a hammer head...
On a further note with new space marine stratagems. I have tried the double shooting TFC twice now and I think it is more or less a waste of CP. The random number of shots is the real reason. The second reason is this kind of firepower is readily available in a space marine army already. I'd much rather take 5 more intercessors to take another 10 man for back up on rapid fire stratagem because often the 10 man unit gets targeted.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"
Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.
Skyfire is a hidden gem. Especially on a Stalker. The shot count means you are likely to get one of those double damage shots off. It is a good counter to Alaitoc flyers, who will be pretty much lacking any of their shenanigans.
Also don't forget - the strat also applies to your HKM and your storm bolter. I actually got the double damage proc last weekend on the HKM and I was like..."dang best 6 points I ever spent" as it proceeded to deal 10 damage to a hammer head...
Nice! I didn't even think of that. And the Storm Bolter seems like it can lay into some medium infantry with fly as a result. No added AP, but you are still going to have some decent shooting. If you can hit them, whack some bikes or whatever.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"
Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.
Skyfire is a hidden gem. Especially on a Stalker. The shot count means you are likely to get one of those double damage shots off. It is a good counter to Alaitoc flyers, who will be pretty much lacking any of their shenanigans.
Also don't forget - the strat also applies to your HKM and your storm bolter. I actually got the double damage proc last weekend on the HKM and I was like..."dang best 6 points I ever spent" as it proceeded to deal 10 damage to a hammer head...
On a further note with new space marine stratagems. I have tried the double shooting TFC twice now and I think it is more or less a waste of CP. The random number of shots is the real reason. The second reason is this kind of firepower is readily available in a space marine army already. I'd much rather take 5 more intercessors to take another 10 man for back up on rapid fire stratagem because often the 10 man unit gets targeted.
The double shooting TFC is for the double tremmer shells slowing down those key units can be clutch for some match ups.
But yes It's fairly CP intensive for mediocre damage, roll hot and it's worth it every time roll liw and it's wasted CP it's too swingy outside the tremmor shells to be worth the doubel shot.
Also what is you guys opinion on stalker bolt rifles now? I've been taking a few 5 mans and I have found their damage to be pretty nice. Especially for the banner fire when you die ability. I just find the added range and AP-3 on turn 1 to be quite useful for the cost of pretty cheap. I was targeting broadsides with them and it was nice to tac on 2 damage here and there. It could all be confirmation bias but the feeling you get when you reduce a 3+ to a 6 plus save with a basic weapon is satisfying.
I also find that even as an ultramarine player I am more often than not staying in the devastator doctrine until all my heavy units are dead. I could build my army more around rapid fire and assault weapons but it seems more often than not your best options are heavy weapons and even with the ignore shooting penalty for moving. Increased AP is better than not suffering -1 to hit. As suspected from the early rumors. Chapters that benefit form a devastator super doctrine are going to be at a serious advantage over everyone else.
Maybe I need to start including more plasmacannons and grav cannons (who don't really need bonus AP) but Primaris really lack options in this area that are any good. I like the sound of 10- man devs with 4 plasma cannons in the tactical doctrine - I think I'll give that a try.
Xenomancers wrote: Also what is you guys opinion on stalker bolt rifles now? I've been taking a few 5 mans and I have found their damage to be pretty nice. Especially for the banner fire when you die ability. I just find the added range and AP-3 on turn 1 to be quite useful for the cost of pretty cheap. I was targeting broadsides with them and it was nice to tac on 2 damage here and there. It could all be confirmation bias but the feeling you get when you reduce a 3+ to a 6 plus save with a basic weapon is satisfying.
Yeah they performed very well for me in my last game, sat at the back on an objective pinging shots off. They managed to finish an eldar flyer out of the sky with a lucky shot as well!
Xenomancers wrote: Also what is you guys opinion on stalker bolt rifles now? I've been taking a few 5 mans and I have found their damage to be pretty nice. Especially for the banner fire when you die ability. I just find the added range and AP-3 on turn 1 to be quite useful for the cost of pretty cheap. I was targeting broadsides with them and it was nice to tac on 2 damage here and there. It could all be confirmation bias but the feeling you get when you reduce a 3+ to a 6 plus save with a basic weapon is satisfying.
I also find that even as an ultramarine player I am more often than not staying in the devastator doctrine until all my heavy units are dead. I could build my army more around rapid fire and assault weapons but it seems more often than not your best options are heavy weapons and even with the ignore shooting penalty for moving. Increased AP is better than not suffering -1 to hit. As suspected from the early rumors. Chapters that benefit form a devastator super doctrine are going to be at a serious advantage over everyone else.
Maybe I need to start including more plasmacannons and grav cannons (who don't really need bonus AP) but Primaris really lack options in this area that are any good. I like the sound of 10- man devs with 4 plasma cannons in the tactical doctrine - I think I'll give that a try.
My dreadnaughts love some move and shoot without penalty but if your playing primaris units they don't gain as much from scions as much as some of the more old school unit's.
Tacs or devs with mobile heavy weapons can be damaging, intercessors bolt rifles and even basic bolters are less ignorable with the bonus shots and Ap.
I'm running a Pros/Cons comparison between a Redemptor Dreadnought with Gatling Cannons and a Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank. Both fill similar roles with similar levels of ability, but with various pros and cons and I can't decide which is better.
Redemptor Dreadnought costs 161 points for an 'ideal' anti-infantry build, and gets 18 S5 AP-1 shots, d3 S7 AP-1 shots with AA, and 4 S4 Rapid Fire shots. It has somewhat shorter range, slower movement, and one fewer wound, but can defend itself in melee should it come to CQC.
The Sicaran Punisher costs 26pts more, but gets a whopping 27 S5 AP-1 shots (as well as 2 S4 Rapid Fire shots), an extra wound, has longer range and much faster movement, rerolls 1s without a captain nearby for 18 of its shots, but is a Relic and therefore you need at least one other Elites choice to bring it.
The Sicaran comes out on top in terms of DPS, range, durability, and mobility, but I'm not sure if it's worth the cost - The higher mobility and the higher range both end up doing the same job, the durability increase is minor, and if you don't already have an Elites choice, you could end up spending a noteworthy model tax or rearranging your list to make it work.
1. There is the stratagem to allow the dreadnaught to take half damage for a turn, this is actually pretty amazing and can make a huge difference in survival for such a unit.
2. I am not a fan of forgeworld, prefering to use codex options if there is a unit that can do the same job most of the time. Thats not to say i don't use or own forgeworld (forgeworld relic contemptor is freaking awsome...) but in this case i don't think the Sicaran is the better unit for the extra cost.
Of course the matter of what chapter your playing matters as well. I am a firm believer that ravenguard and iron hands will be the biggest winners of this newest release. Our damage output has gone way up now, spacemarines feel like a serious threat on the table. But our survival hasnt changed all that much, so anything that will help us stay on the table longer will be very beneficial to the army.
I mean, redemptor dreadnought that has a 2+ save (counts as in cover) and takes half dmg or 3+/6+++, takes half dmg, counts as double the wound total for degradation, and overwatches on 5's? Either one is a scary thought.
@Azuza001, for reference, I'm an Iron Hands player. I actually own the Sicaran but not the dreadnought.
I agree with point #1 about the stratagem, though - Having that ability around in case you take some heavy fire is pretty potent and easily outweighs 1 extra wound as long as there are CPs to spare.
The main reason I'm looking into this is to supplement my gunline with powerful anti-infantry, especially that will be able to use the Devestator Doctrine effectively. (S5 AP-2 will "Devestate" most infantry hordes.) I think I'm leaning towards "Dreadnought is better unless you already have an Elites choice and don't have a ton of CPs".
Important caviat is that the dreads storm bolters are always 8 shots. So really its the same total number of shots. Plus it costs a lot less. Plus 50% of a redemptors game is in CC where it hits with 5 attacks that almost always wound on 2's for d6 damage. Redemptors are quite solid.
Agreed about redemptors, they are almost always totally ignored and then by about turn 2 or 3 they are in the enemys face smashing people.
Last game he wasn't touched and I deployed him on a flank, alaitoc flyer rush and shining spears killed alot of my infantry but he left the repulsors and redemptor which he thought weren't dangerous. My redemptor finished 2 squads of shining spears (one of them deep striked behind him and failed the charge) and then proceed to march up to a wave serpent and cripple it before finally being destroyed.
Impulsors look quite good for tactical doctrine ultramarines (or successors). 2 storm bolters and an ironhail stubber = 8 shots on the move, then you can take the sky talon or missile on top of that. Using 3-4 of them for screening would definitely boost your anti infantry firepower and they can fall back and shoot if they get tagged.
Idea I had while looking through warlord traits: the slash captain. Give a captain a jump pack (cuz mobility) teeth of terra, the reroll charge and +1str +1atk on charge trait, and the ultramarines mortal wounds on 6s to wound trait. Should be 9 attacks on the charge for a decent chance at some mortal wounds. Can really go out and delete some chaff or maybe even an enemy character. Is it actually that good? Probably not, but it's the extreme end of getting as many attacks as possible on a character so an interesting thought experiment.
Slash captain is something i have used a lot in my games, he is quite effective. I run mine on a bike though because its cheaper for more mobility and an extra point of toughness and the 2 bolters attached to the bike. Might of heros on him turns him into a psudo demon prince with talons effectively.
Xenomancers wrote: Important caviat is that the dreads storm bolters are always 8 shots. So really its the same total number of shots. Plus it costs a lot less. Plus 50% of a redemptors game is in CC where it hits with 5 attacks that almost always wound on 2's for d6 damage. Redemptors are quite solid.
I think your math is off. A Dread will have 27-29 shots. A Sicaran will have 31. (More importantly, the Sicaran has 27 shots that take advantage of Devestator Doctrine, instead of 19-21.)
I also don't like to plan on multitasking with my units. Having CQC as an option is nice if I need some counter-assault capabilities, but I don't want to plan on moving towards the enemy or seeking out melee targets. (Against Orks or Nids, I can see the redemptor doing significantly better, but against something like Guard, I don't value the melee potential for much.)
1. There is the stratagem to allow the dreadnaught to take half damage for a turn, this is actually pretty amazing and can make a huge difference in survival for such a unit.
2. I am not a fan of forgeworld, prefering to use codex options if there is a unit that can do the same job most of the time. Thats not to say i don't use or own forgeworld (forgeworld relic contemptor is freaking awsome...) but in this case i don't think the Sicaran is the better unit for the extra cost.
Of course the matter of what chapter your playing matters as well. I am a firm believer that ravenguard and iron hands will be the biggest winners of this newest release. Our damage output has gone way up now, spacemarines feel like a serious threat on the table. But our survival hasnt changed all that much, so anything that will help us stay on the table longer will be very beneficial to the army.
I mean, redemptor dreadnought that has a 2+ save (counts as in cover) and takes half dmg or 3+/6+++, takes half dmg, counts as double the wound total for degradation, and overwatches on 5's? Either one is a scary thought.
1. That is assuming you only ever have one Dread you want to protect. Were it a bigger investment like a Relic Contemptor or Leviathan, this would make sense. In a list when you're likely running multiple Dreads? Nah.
2. This...is not an argument.
The Dread doesn't fill a real role when you consider other Dreads existing.
Yes, he was asking between those 2 things and i gave my honest opinion. I wasnt trying to make an argument, just my opinion and my reasoning for said opinion.
If we are talking about taking just 1 vs the other, assuming you already own both models and your only taking 1, i think the dreadnaught is the preferred option. However as i also said it depends on what the rest of the list is. If your running 3 dreads then the strat doesnt come into play as much and the Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank looks much better.
Xenomancers wrote: Important caviat is that the dreads storm bolters are always 8 shots. So really its the same total number of shots. Plus it costs a lot less. Plus 50% of a redemptors game is in CC where it hits with 5 attacks that almost always wound on 2's for d6 damage. Redemptors are quite solid.
I think your math is off. A Dread will have 27-29 shots. A Sicaran will have 31. (More importantly, the Sicaran has 27 shots that take advantage of Devestator Doctrine, instead of 19-21.)
I also don't like to plan on multitasking with my units. Having CQC as an option is nice if I need some counter-assault capabilities, but I don't want to plan on moving towards the enemy or seeking out melee targets. (Against Orks or Nids, I can see the redemptor doing significantly better, but against something like Guard, I don't value the melee potential for much.)
It certainly involves a different game plan. I play marines like an advancing battleline so redemptors suit me perfectly. It's also true they wont see CC a lot vs tau or guard.
Xenomancers wrote: Important caviat is that the dreads storm bolters are always 8 shots. So really its the same total number of shots. Plus it costs a lot less. Plus 50% of a redemptors game is in CC where it hits with 5 attacks that almost always wound on 2's for d6 damage. Redemptors are quite solid.
I think your math is off. A Dread will have 27-29 shots. A Sicaran will have 31. (More importantly, the Sicaran has 27 shots that take advantage of Devestator Doctrine, instead of 19-21.)
I also don't like to plan on multitasking with my units. Having CQC as an option is nice if I need some counter-assault capabilities, but I don't want to plan on moving towards the enemy or seeking out melee targets. (Against Orks or Nids, I can see the redemptor doing significantly better, but against something like Guard, I don't value the melee potential for much.)
the other advantage of the sicaran punisher if your not going to be moving is it's inbuilt reroll 1's which while as a marine your probably going to be aiming to be in an aura, it does allow it a bit more ability to be left alone instead of neading to shuffle along should you have been forced to counter charge/heroically intervene.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Sicarans can also take Sponsons for whatever that's worth. Makes them more expensive but it concentrates even more of that S5 AP-1 into one platform.
That is including the sponsons I'm pretty sure. The main gun is heavy 20 I believe.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Sicarans can also take Sponsons for whatever that's worth. Makes them more expensive but it concentrates even more of that S5 AP-1 into one platform.
That is including the sponsons I'm pretty sure. The main gun is heavy 20 I believe.
18 but it also has a hull heavy bolter for 21+6 sponson shots
Ya know I haven't looked at the Sicaran variants since last Chapter Approved. I know the Autocannon one got slightly cheaper and it was basically better than the Predator already.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ya know I haven't looked at the Sicaran variants since last Chapter Approved. I know the Autocannon one got slightly cheaper and it was basically better than the Predator already.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ya know I haven't looked at the Sicaran variants since last Chapter Approved. I know the Autocannon one got slightly cheaper and it was basically better than the Predator already.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Idea I had while looking through warlord traits: the slash captain. Give a captain a jump pack (cuz mobility) teeth of terra, the reroll charge and +1str +1atk on charge trait, and the ultramarines mortal wounds on 6s to wound trait. Should be 9 attacks on the charge for a decent chance at some mortal wounds. Can really go out and delete some chaff or maybe even an enemy character. Is it actually that good? Probably not, but it's the extreme end of getting as many attacks as possible on a character so an interesting thought experiment.
I thought the current extreme end for max attacks for a slash Captain was with White Scars? Imperium’s Sword warlord trait that you mentioned plus a White Scars warlord trait of +d3 attacks. That would be 10-12 attacks on the charge.
Ah, was not aware of the white scars trait. Dont own the book for them so my scars knowledge is admittedly lacking. That probably would be the highest attacks possible. My idea was that the mortal wound procs were like pseudo extra attacks.
Actually, at a glance, those two traits look about the same mathematically with probably an edge to the white scars one, though I'd have to actually run the numbers.
Run as BT. 10 attacks on the charge, rerolls wounds with extra hits on unmodified 6s and can also get a 5+ FNP if you need it. You're down one Str, but reroll wounds is better anyway.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Run as BT. 10 attacks on the charge, rerolls wounds with extra hits on unmodified 6s and can also get a 5+ FNP if you need it. You're down one Str, but reroll wounds is better anyway.
Per the FAQ regarding effects that proc on 6s that referenced eliminanators and fist tactics would that mean 2 MW per 6?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ya know I haven't looked at the Sicaran variants since last Chapter Approved. I know the Autocannon one got slightly cheaper and it was basically better than the Predator already.
Yeah and it still is lol.
They're still in the Elite slot correct?
Saying they're better than Predators is damning with faint praise, IMO. A lot of things are better than Predators. Predators have a d3 autocannon, but are fragile and don't provide a ton of benefit over similar options. (If you want a glass cannon with high rate of fire, shave points and go for a quad-autocannon Dreadnought. If you want something durable with better DPS, pay the extra 40pts and go for a Sicaran.)
The biggest benefit of the Sicaran is that it provides efficient AA, but it's awkward in how it does it - instead of the standard +1 to hit against Fly units, (making it particularly effective against skimmers and the like,) it ignores penalties to hit against Fly units, which is worse against most non-supersonic choices, but ironically means you can advance and fire against a unit with multiple stacked hit debuffs and still use normal BS.
The regular Sicaran probably sees as much benefit as the Punisher from doctrines, since getting an extra point of AP on high ROF weapons is great, but I want to run it a couple times to see.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Run as BT. 10 attacks on the charge, rerolls wounds with extra hits on unmodified 6s and can also get a 5+ FNP if you need it. You're down one Str, but reroll wounds is better anyway.
Per the FAQ regarding effects that proc on 6s that referenced eliminanators and fist tactics would that mean 2 MW per 6?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Run as BT. 10 attacks on the charge, rerolls wounds with extra hits on unmodified 6s and can also get a 5+ FNP if you need it. You're down one Str, but reroll wounds is better anyway.
Per the FAQ regarding effects that proc on 6s that referenced eliminanators and fist tactics would that mean 2 MW per 6?
Isn't the MW on 6s an Ultramarine thing?
Fist tactics give extra hits, the MWs trigger on wound rolls so no double MWs.
While we're talking unit comparisons:
Is the Vindicator Laser Destroyer efficient enough to be useful?
It's only 8pts more than an equivalent Predator, gets +1 T and W, reliable damage, and an overcharge option that's admittedly limited but helpful against T5 or T9 enemies, or anyone with particularly good saves and no invuln. It loses flexibility if it moves, but that's the only downside I can see.
"Better than a Prefator" is once again weak praise, though. Is it *good*?
Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).
Sterling191 wrote: Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).
That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/
A squad of 10 intercessors with auto-bolt rifles could be pretty good deep-strike deterrent against infantry. 30 attacks at BS4 with theoretical re-rolls should be able to blunt a genestealer cult's or whatever else's attack.
Sterling191 wrote: Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).
That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/
I dunno if that's true because of the consistent damage and the range boost. Is there any presented Mathhammer?
Sterling191 wrote: Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).
That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/
I dunno if that's true because of the consistent damage and the range boost. Is there any presented Mathhammer?
Mathhammer usually takes the average results, so it wouldn't be of much use here. Compare and contrast:
Vindicator vs, say, an Imperial Knight - 3.5 shots, 2/3rds hit, 2/3rds wound, 2/3rds fail save, 3.5 damage per shot = 3.61 damage
VLD vs an Imperial Knight - 4 shots, 2/3rds hit, 2/3rds wound, 2/3rds fail save, 3 damage per shot = 3.54 damage per shot
Trying to do math that, for example, showcases the effectiveness of having a consistent 3 damage or the likely spread of damage becomes exponentially harder.
The VLD will do better against anything with precisely 2 or 3 wounds, and the AP-5 option means that it can snipe high value targets who lack invulns if it comes up as an option. Pure vanilla Vindicator will generally do better against T5 because it wounds on 2s without losing rate of fire.
I'd be willing to bet, just going off of gut feeling, that the VLD does get a fairly significant edge for having reliable damage output, but I highly doubt that this reliability is enough to compensate for a 50% increase in points cost. You could get three Vindicators for the cost of two VLDs.
Sterling191 wrote: Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).
That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/
vanilla vindicators are less random then arcane relics of the heresy?
Sterling191 wrote: Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).
That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/
I dunno if that's true because of the consistent damage and the range boost. Is there any presented Mathhammer?
Mathhammer usually takes the average results, so it wouldn't be of much use here. Compare and contrast:
Vindicator vs, say, an Imperial Knight - 3.5 shots, 2/3rds hit, 2/3rds wound, 2/3rds fail save, 3.5 damage per shot = 3.61 damage
VLD vs an Imperial Knight - 4 shots, 2/3rds hit, 2/3rds wound, 2/3rds fail save, 3 damage per shot = 3.54 damage per shot
Trying to do math that, for example, showcases the effectiveness of having a consistent 3 damage or the likely spread of damage becomes exponentially harder.
The VLD will do better against anything with precisely 2 or 3 wounds, and the AP-5 option means that it can snipe high value targets who lack invulns if it comes up as an option. Pure vanilla Vindicator will generally do better against T5 because it wounds on 2s without losing rate of fire.
I'd be willing to bet, just going off of gut feeling, that the VLD does get a fairly significant edge for having reliable damage output, but I highly doubt that this reliability is enough to compensate for a 50% increase in points cost. You could get three Vindicators for the cost of two VLDs.
Seems like a case of figuring out how much you want to pay for that extra range.
Played 3 games of 500pt last night with my crimson fists and have decided I don't really like suppressors much. My list was as follows..
Crimson fist liberator strike force patrol
Primaris lt
Vox esperitum, auto bolt rifle. Expert instructor.
(For the 9 inch re rolls)
2 X 5 intercessors with bolt rifles
1 X 5 Intercessors with stalker's
3 eliminators
3 suppressors
...
Game 1 played nurgle who basically had a Daemon prince and some chaff. The Prince just flew over and killed my whole army despite being riddled with fire and charged by everyone. Lost 9-2
Game 2 against slaneesh daemons , I formed up into a castle in some ruins as I had first turn. My opponent seized and charged into my lines with everything, luckily I weathered the charge then pulled out of combat and cleaned up with my remaining squads who could fire. The following turn he charged everything else he had left and I yet again took it on the chin and finished him. Won 12-5
Game 3 against death korps of krieg. Basically on planet bowling ball against 2 Basilisk and a million mortars, I was pounded to dust on a battlefield which completely suited the guard. I had to slog the whole battlefield getting hammered the whole time, I finally got into combat right at the end but it was far too late and the cards I drew were horrific. Lost 9-2.
In conclusion I don't like suppressors really, they are incredibly cheap but they want to be in deepstrike really but you also need the firepower to be on the table with their Autocannons. A squad of 3 inceptors is far better with more wounds more toughness and more shots.
Eliminators are cool but I definitely misused them, they need to be sat miles back in cover but because of the massive boards and small amount of units I kept infiltrating then onto objectives which put them in the line of fire allot!
Just wondering if anyone has any numbers on when it is good to use the guided aim ability on the srg?
I looking at putting a squad together and if its generally good to use GA instead of firing another sniper then I'm model him up with a carbine instead for the run away option.
I'd be willing to bet, just going off of gut feeling, that the VLD does get a fairly significant edge for having reliable damage output, but I highly doubt that this reliability is enough to compensate for a 50% increase in points cost. You could get three Vindicators for the cost of two VLDs.
Thats the long and short of it. Also remember that if you're taking two VLDs you need two other Heavy Support units (cause <RELIC>. Not necessarily hard to do for Marines, but it complicates things if you also want to bring in say a Leviathan.
WisdomLS wrote: Just wondering if anyone has any numbers on when it is good to use the guided aim ability on the srg?
I looking at putting a squad together and if its generally good to use GA instead of firing another sniper then I'm model him up with a carbine instead for the run away option.
Thanks for any help :-)
I don't have the numbers to hand right now (will edit to include later), but the summary is that assuming you still have a full squad of 3, using guided aim is better, especially if you use the Mortis round because it doubles your chances of getting the mortal wound.
Incidentally, a guided Mortis round is very nearly as good as a guided las fusil against toughness 6, 7 and 8, and is better in terms of points per wound and assuming no invul. If the target has a 5++ or better, they're the same.
I will be taking two bolt sniper rifles and one instigator in each of my three squads, as a brilliant multi-purpose unit that can tackle elite infantry, characters and sling approximately 7 damage a turn against even heavy vehicles (though I plan on using Master Artisans, so it will be even higher).
The maths here, including the mortal wound and the re-rolls for Master Artisans, gets pretty complicated so please feel free to correct me if I've done anything wrong!
The Eliminator math is really tricky. There are all sort of things like reroll auras and Chaplain's +1 to hit which complicate the matters.
If GW ever bothers to actually release the multipart kit, my current plan is to build one squad of all sniper rifles and one squad of two fusils and a carbine sergeant.
The reason for not giving carbine to the sniper squad sergeant is the executioner rounds. When firing those the guided aim is not needed, and I'd like the sergeant to fire along with the rest of the squad.
I will eventually want a third squad too, I really like the models, but I want to first to see how these two versions perform before deciding on how to arm the third one.
Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:
Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.
Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.
Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.
The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.
The Newman wrote: Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:
Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.
Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.
Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.
The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.
Master Crafted only applies to 1 weapon on the sargent not all of that weapon in the unit
The Newman wrote: Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:
Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.
Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.
Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.
The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.
Master Crafted only applies to 1 weapon on the sargent not all of that weapon in the unit
Can you do this on centurions? Holy crap a master crafter hurricane bolter with ignore cover seems pretty broken.
The Newman wrote: Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:
Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.
Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.
Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.
The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.
Master Crafted only applies to 1 weapon on the sargent not all of that weapon in the unit
Can you do this on centurions? Holy crap a master crafter hurricane bolter with ignore cover seems pretty broken.
Can't see why not aside from GW being GW and FAQ it to be x bolters in future.
Also works on the missiles aswell -3AP Flat 4 damage isn't as good but it delets gravis fast
The Newman wrote: Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:
Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.
Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.
Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.
The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.
Master Crafted only applies to 1 weapon on the sargent not all of that weapon in the unit
I thought spelling out Honored Sergeant / Khan's Champion would cover that since the strats spell out one weapon on one Sergeant that isn't a character.
Also, yeah the Centurion Missile Launcher is a Heavy D3 Dd3, the strat would only make it Dd3+1. Which is still pretty decent when you get right down to it. It also could be applied to one of the Centurion's Heavy Bolters or Grav Cannon, or a Suppressor Cannon.
As stated earlier though, it gets more valuable the more shots it's effecting, so a Hurricane Bolter or Boltstorm Gauntlet (Ranged) is the best return on investment. Especially if you stack other buffs on it.
And I left out Ultramarines being able to flip two units to Tactical Doctrine on turn one. (One via strat, one via warlord trait.) Applying two full units of move-and-double-tap Aggressors to your opponent before they get to do anything in a casual game borders on TFG behavior. ...actually that might cross the line into TFG behavior depending on how casual your local group is.
Can you think of a good use for a Gravis Captain? Besides being a slow walking tank.
The model is badass and iconic and he got a nice buff with +1 wound. But it only fits in the (now overpriced) Repulsor and I can't think of many relics/warlord traits to improve him.
Maybe it's a good choice to buff walking Agressors.
I hope one of the remaining supplements bring a relic Boltstorm Gauntlet, it's quite the unimpressive piece of gear as it is.
Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.
That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.
Xenomancers wrote: Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.
That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.
Whats the relic to halve damage? They changed Shield Eternal. Is it a supplement specific one?
Xenomancers wrote: Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.
That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.
Whats the relic to halve damage? They changed Shield Eternal. Is it a supplement specific one?
The only one I know of is the Ultramarine Terminator armor one. Basically it's what Shield Eternal used to be.
Xenomancers wrote: Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.
That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.
Whats the relic to halve damage? They changed Shield Eternal. Is it a supplement specific one?
The only one I know of is the Ultramarine Terminator armor one. Basically it's what Shield Eternal used to be.
So not useable by him. Neither the current (or old) Shield Eternal.
Where do you get 6" HI besides the Born Heroes successor trait?
DanielFM wrote: Can you think of a good use for a Gravis Captain? Besides being a slow walking tank.
The model is badass and iconic and he got a nice buff with +1 wound. But it only fits in the (now overpriced) Repulsor and I can't think of many relics/warlord traits to improve him.
Maybe it's a good choice to buff walking Agressors.
I hope one of the remaining supplements bring a relic Boltstorm Gauntlet, it's quite the unimpressive piece of gear as it is.
I have been using mine as a chapter master with the vox espiritum relic. It gives him a 9" aura of reroll all hits. The lack of a transport doesn't matter because he will be walking anyway due to the aura. The gravis captain and the phobos captain are really good CM options for my RG while I wait for Shrike's new model/rules to come out.
Edit: As far as counter punch units go, just take the Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought from forge world. That thing is insanely good after the errata.
DanielFM wrote: Can you think of a good use for a Gravis Captain? Besides being a slow walking tank.
The model is badass and iconic and he got a nice buff with +1 wound. But it only fits in the (now overpriced) Repulsor and I can't think of many relics/warlord traits to improve him.
Maybe it's a good choice to buff walking Agressors.
I hope one of the remaining supplements bring a relic Boltstorm Gauntlet, it's quite the unimpressive piece of gear as it is.
I have been using mine as a chapter master with the vox espiritum relic. It gives him a 9" aura of reroll all hits. The lack of a transport doesn't matter because he will be walking anyway due to the aura. The gravis captain and the phobos captain are really good CM options for my RG while I wait for Shrike's new model/rules to come out.
Edit: As far as counter punch units go, just take the Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought from forge world. That thing is insanely good after the errata.
I second the "Chapter Master with Vox Espiritum". It's one of the few times that using the Chapter Master stratagem provides real benefits over taking named characters, since most characters don't get 9".
I have used him a few times as chapter master with vox, the 9" bubble is nice and he saved a vindicator from a deamon prince once. He is a cool model and does well in the field but all and all i find most primaris hq's sub par vs normal ones, they just don't have the upgrade options to be mobile enough for me. As a counter punch they do ok but still... not enough. Only the phobos lib do i find has enough in the positive side of things to be useable.
To me a good hq has a few different things that they need to be effective. They need to buff your army in some way and they need to be strong enough in cc that your opponent needs to think twice before charging. Finally they need some way to get to where they are needed the most quickly. Phobos libs can do this, but as a scalpel. You can give them the warlord trait to boost a units shooting (phobos only now but still works well), scryers gaze, and corridor. But that only buffs 2 squads, not much. The gravis captain is more like a rock, he is slow but hard to shift and if you go chapter master /vox he is very effective at boosing your army and kicking butt in cc.
The other primaris hq's dont cut it for me. You have to give them the burning blade relic to make them any good in cc, and their mobility isnt any better really than gravis who has the fist of "respect mah authority!" already.
DanielFM wrote: Can you think of a good use for a Gravis Captain? Besides being a slow walking tank.
The model is badass and iconic and he got a nice buff with +1 wound. But it only fits in the (now overpriced) Repulsor and I can't think of many relics/warlord traits to improve him.
Maybe it's a good choice to buff walking Agressors.
I hope one of the remaining supplements bring a relic Boltstorm Gauntlet, it's quite the unimpressive piece of gear as it is.
What the Gravis captain seems to have going for it is melee flexibility straight out of the box. Power Fist or Master Crafted Power Sword depending on which is better against the target and a three shot pistol to clear hordes faster is a pretty darn good loadout for a model without a relic, that might be worth it by itself if you don't want to spend the CPs for a second or third relic in your list.
This is especially true if your collection is Primaris-only and your generic characters don't exactly have great melee loadouts.
He does make the best use of Master Crafted Weapon and Hellfire / Stormwrath Bolts of all the Primaris characters, but they're better used elsewhere.
Xenomancers wrote: Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.
That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.
Whats the relic to halve damage? They changed Shield Eternal. Is it a supplement specific one?
The only one I know of is the Ultramarine Terminator armor one. Basically it's what Shield Eternal used to be.
So not useable by him. Neither the current (or old) Shield Eternal.
Where do you get 6" HI besides the Born Heroes successor trait?
Still learning the book - didn't realize it was term armor only. That is disappointing. The 6" heroic is an Ultramarine warlord trait. Also the double warlord trait stratagem says you have to take 2 warlord traits from the Ultramarine codex. Probably best to combine the 2 heroic intervention traits. Warlord can do a 6 " and all units within 6 inches of him can also intervein (think dreadnoughts and additional intercessor squads etc). The space marine stratagem for an additional warlord trait seems to allow you to take warlord traits from any book.
Upon further inspection. I think putting a no investment out of the box gravis captain is probably his best use. He has pretty good base stats.
Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.
7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.
Nice discussion guys!
Another one: best company for Impulsor Hellblasters?
The most obvious one is a barebones Primaris Captain for the ever-necessary rerolls. Maybe with relic bolt rifle/bolt pistol to contribute dakka, or Burning blade for counter attack.
A Primaris Librarian would be useful for Null zone, as a Chaplain for the +1 to hit (but not the turn you dissembark, what a waste of a shooting phase), or the old school Ancient for revenge shots.
It's such a shame they changed the +1 to hit WT to Phobos only. A Reiver Lieutenant with it would have been the perfect company for the Impulsor Hellblasters.
Hace I missed any tricks in the book? (Books, but I disregard UM supplement as I play IF)
Got a full battalion box spare from apoc and have got quite a large crimson fist force now so I'm tempted to start a second marine army with the contents of the box, hoping iron hands are good I might choose them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Got a full battalion box spare from apoc and have got quite a large crimson fist force now so I'm tempted to start a second marine army with the contents of the box, hoping iron hands are good I might choose them.
Lemondish wrote: Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.
7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.
it looks good but he can't go anywhere without a transport. Counter Assault Lite as a Chapter Master as discussed earlier seems like a better idea.
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
I have tried the successor rules and I think they are solid. All you lose from being a successor seems to be special characters and one page of relics in the supplement you are using. However there is a stat that lets take one relic from that page for 1 cp if you are a successor. Honestly though the special issue wargear and the relics from Codex Space Marines are solid, so I don't think you are missing much there.
You can always just take Inheritors of the Primarch if you like your founding chapter's tactics. There are some good successor tactics such whirlwind of rage or stealthy.
I think the successor rules are competitive IMO.
DanielFM wrote: Nice discussion guys!
Another one: best company for Impulsor Hellblasters?
The most obvious one is a barebones Primaris Captain for the ever-necessary rerolls. Maybe with relic bolt rifle/bolt pistol to contribute dakka, or Burning blade for counter attack.
A Primaris Librarian would be useful for Null zone, as a Chaplain for the +1 to hit (but not the turn you dissembark, what a waste of a shooting phase), or the old school Ancient for revenge shots.
It's such a shame they changed the +1 to hit WT to Phobos only. A Reiver Lieutenant with it would have been the perfect company for the Impulsor Hellblasters.
Hace I missed any tricks in the book? (Books, but I disregard UM supplement as I play IF)
The librarian is the best. With null zone up hellblasters are rather brutal. Through with hellblasters IMO it is either go big or go home. To get the most out of them you need a captain/chapter master, a lieutenant and a libby for null zone. Hellblasters are best used as hammer unit that you deploy supported by characters and other units.
With the phobos librarian no longer having access to null zone, I think the best way to deliver null zone to a target is a normal primaris librarian in a implusor. Moving after disembarking gives the librarian crazy threat range with null zone.
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
It isn't INTERESTING, but the list I'm working on will use the Raptors as a Raven Guard successor with the Stealthy and Marksman bonus. The way I figure it, the -1 to hit bonus won't come up a lot but the 3" does matter for an Alpha or Beta Strike.
I run my black templars as a sucsessor chapter right now because i don't care for the current templar rules. Reroll charges is nice, adding to charge rolls is better. So i run marksman and add to charge. Nothing says "Burn heritic" like templars piling out of drop pods with 11" flamers lol.
Not the most survivable way to run marines but very alpha strike effective.
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
It isn't INTERESTING, but the list I'm working on will use the Raptors as a Raven Guard successor with the Stealthy and Marksman bonus. The way I figure it, the -1 to hit bonus won't come up a lot but the 3" does matter for an Alpha or Beta Strike.
Unless you are using flamers or other short range weapons master artisans is better IMO. Especially if you are running MSU.
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
It isn't INTERESTING, but the list I'm working on will use the Raptors as a Raven Guard successor with the Stealthy and Marksman bonus. The way I figure it, the -1 to hit bonus won't come up a lot but the 3" does matter for an Alpha or Beta Strike.
Unless you are using flamers or other short range weapons master artisans is better IMO. Especially if you are running MSU.
Master Artisans is garbage as a trait. The moment you're anywhere near the HQs you should be near anyway, it loses a sense of purpose. Even if you only chose to run your HQ units as beatsticks, it isn't good whatsoever. It's also why The Scourged are bad too.
It wasn't good in the last codex and it sure as hell isn't good now, and the endless defending of the bad trait is honestly mind boggling. If anything, the ignoring of AP-1 is the only thing making Salamanders look worthwhile.
Meanwhile, the extra 3" actually gives worthwhile flexibility in terms of deployment and objective holding AND Deep Strike effectiveness.
Most hqs only reroll ones so with master artisan you can reroll those 2s and 3s that the hqs cant reroll. So unless you hit and wound your targets on 2s it is probably not wasted at all. And on units like the new warsuit and scouts you probably wont have a character nearby anyway.
The reroll on shooting isnt that amazing on the warsuit but after wiping out a squad and then charging in with 5 ws 3+ str 14 ap-3 D3 attacks the 2 rerolls is almost the same as adding 1-2 extra attacks since it is unlikely against any harder targets to hit and wound with all 5.
Also great if having a detachment with a single something like a thunderfire cannon that you dont want having characters around just to buff that.
Perhaps not so good in a full gunline castle list but still not bad.
Im gonna run a detachment with 3 warsuits, 3 troops and 3 whirlwinds/TF and use master artisan, stealthy and as a ultramarine successor for the redeploy stratagem if I dont go first. Having a 1000pt detachment like that to cover the weakness of my blood angels that will be the other 1000pts. Might use another first founding if the other supplements will have anything better than the redeploy strat since the other UM stuff isnt that useful
I wouldnt say master artisans is garbage. Its all about how you want to play. If you like lots of min size squads and prefer to not use hq's as force multipliers, going for a more "each unit is self supporting " salamanders are terrific. It frees up the hq pts to be spent on more units, which can be quite an effective use of points. I am not sure its a top teir option but it can be quite efficient in allowing you to save those cp on rerolls.
I just played a game using salamanders, and the rerolls for master artisans was great. Getting some rerolls away from hqs is great. It allows more freedom of movement as you're not worrying about being tied down to a character.
Aura-hammer is annoying and creates boring game-play.
Units being able to reroll on their own combats the boring play quite a bit.
Heafstaag wrote: I just played a game using salamanders, and the rerolls for master artisans was great. Getting some rerolls away from hqs is great. It allows more freedom of movement as you're not worrying about being tied down to a character.
Aura-hammer is annoying and creates boring game-play.
Units being able to reroll on their own combats the boring play quite a bit.
I'm not interested if you consider it boring. It's more effective and that's what the tactics thread is for.
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Azuza001 wrote: I wouldnt say master artisans is garbage. Its all about how you want to play. If you like lots of min size squads and prefer to not use hq's as force multipliers, going for a more "each unit is self supporting " salamanders are terrific. It frees up the hq pts to be spent on more units, which can be quite an effective use of points. I am not sure its a top teir option but it can be quite efficient in allowing you to save those cp on rerolls.
It wasn't a good argument for the last codex, so why is it a good argument now? Everything we have that's good needs more than a single reroll, and that's a fact.
I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.
Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.
Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.
Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.
Heafstaag wrote: I just played a game using salamanders, and the rerolls for master artisans was great. Getting some rerolls away from hqs is great. It allows more freedom of movement as you're not worrying about being tied down to a character.
Aura-hammer is annoying and creates boring game-play.
Units being able to reroll on their own combats the boring play quite a bit.
I'm not interested if you consider it boring. It's more effective and that's what the tactics thread is for.
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Azuza001 wrote: I wouldnt say master artisans is garbage. Its all about how you want to play. If you like lots of min size squads and prefer to not use hq's as force multipliers, going for a more "each unit is self supporting " salamanders are terrific. It frees up the hq pts to be spent on more units, which can be quite an effective use of points. I am not sure its a top teir option but it can be quite efficient in allowing you to save those cp on rerolls.
It wasn't a good argument for the last codex, so why is it a good argument now? Everything we have that's good needs more than a single reroll, and that's a fact.
...?
Artisans allows freedom of movement. Your units are not as tied down. This means you can use units on their own a bit more- perhaps allowing you to forgo a character here and there, thus saving points. This allows the characters you do have in your list to be fielded where it matters during the game. A flank can hold on its own while still getting some rerolls. That's what I found out today. I had an invictor, a regular dread, and a tac squad hold, and eventually win a flank against my oppenents push on their own. My characters were able to stay in the center and hold the line against Mortarion.
Freeing up points and allowing flexibility in lists is nothing to scoff at.
And I'm pretty sure most people play games for fun-even competitive/tournament games. If you aren't having fun you woudn't pay the costs for a 40k army, and invest the time building and painting. Sure, people enjoy different play styles, and the artisans trait allows flexibility without shooting yourself in the foot by playing a bit more spread out, or going a bit light on characters.
Those are some solid reasons why master artisans doesn't suck.
What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.
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Azuza001 wrote: I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.
Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.
Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.
Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.
The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.
Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.
So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.
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Azuza001 wrote: I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.
Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.
Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.
Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.
The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.
Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.
So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?
Simply put are you running a primaris list or an old school marines list?
If your primaris then yeah it's probably not a good trait, especially if your running redemptor or repulsors as those things are rediculous buckets of dice unit's.
However if your running a lot of MSU Tacs with a single heavy it's going to allow them to keep a significant amount of their damage output re-roll buffed.
It really depends on the list you run and the missions you play as to the actual impact it has, with ITC probably not the way you want to play. With some other missions with lots of objectives or random scoring objectives being able to camp multiple objectives without being totally buffless can make a difference.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.
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Azuza001 wrote: I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.
Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.
Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.
Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.
The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.
Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.
So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?
Meaning units can operate on their own without a character more effectively. Simple as that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.
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Azuza001 wrote: I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.
Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.
Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.
Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.
The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.
Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.
So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?
Simply put are you running a primaris list or an old school marines list?
If your primaris then yeah it's probably not a good trait, especially if your running redemptor or repulsors as those things are rediculous buckets of dice unit's.
However if your running a lot of MSU Tacs with a single heavy it's going to allow them to keep a significant amount of their damage output re-roll buffed.
It really depends on the list you run and the missions you play as to the actual impact it has, with ITC probably not the way you want to play. With some other missions with lots of objectives or random scoring objectives being able to camp multiple objectives without being totally buffless can make a difference.
I'm doing mix, with both MSU and larger squads being done. It isn't good for Primaris and it isn't good for Manlet Marines either, especially with how much more other Tactics can offer (especially if you're doing camping, where Imperial Fists are easily a better choice).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.
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Azuza001 wrote: I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.
Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.
Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.
Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.
The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.
Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.
So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?
Meaning units can operate on their own without a character more effectively. Simple as that.
You're not running so many units that it's a good argument. Were you talking armies that could spam units like Imperial Guard or AdMech you'd maybe have a point.
Artisans is my favourite trait out of the successors. Some units it really ramps up the damage on:
Hunters with HKMs
Eliminators with snipers
Invictors with autocannons (both ranged and CC)
Whirlwind with vengeance rounds and HKM
Any random missile launcher you throw on a tac squad or scout squad
Unlike before (when it was linked only to sallys) you can pair it with a second trait of your choosing, and also retain the boosted doctrine and extra strats from ultras or white scars. It's not the only way to make a competitive space marine list but it really shines in some situations and boosts every unit damage by a little
Edit: just did the maths on the invictors CC attacks. You're actually better off having master artisans than you are having chapter master rerolls to hit! (3.1 wounds caused vs 3). The same is true of ML or las dev squads too when targeting knights or T7 vehicles
Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?
Point doesn't matter, dismissing that the trait makes a predator with quad las better because you dont like the predator vs a different unit is not an objective argument to make to counter my point.
Same with making passive aggressive arguments about hq's not being able to move, you know exactly what we are saying. Your aura hq can not be everywhere at once. The trait allows units that normally get left behind an option to become better. The % better they become is tied to the type of weapons said unit uses. Are there different traits that can be better? Again that comes down to list building and deciding. But to flat out say something is garbage because you see no use for it in the kinds of lists you run in said tactics thread is in and of its self wrong. People come to these kinds of threads looking for advice and peoples opinions on how to make their armys play better. If you said its bad and no one argued with you then the general consensus would be your right in your opinion. The fact your getting so much push back on said argument should show that this is a personal opinion and not necessarily what the comunity as a whole agrees with.
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
It isn't INTERESTING, but the list I'm working on will use the Raptors as a Raven Guard successor with the Stealthy and Marksman bonus. The way I figure it, the -1 to hit bonus won't come up a lot but the 3" does matter for an Alpha or Beta Strike.
Unless you are using flamers or other short range weapons master artisans is better IMO. Especially if you are running MSU.
Master Artisans is garbage as a trait. The moment you're anywhere near the HQs you should be near anyway, it loses a sense of purpose. Even if you only chose to run your HQ units as beatsticks, it isn't good whatsoever. It's also why The Scourged are bad too.
It wasn't good in the last codex and it sure as hell isn't good now, and the endless defending of the bad trait is honestly mind boggling. If anything, the ignoring of AP-1 is the only thing making Salamanders look worthwhile.
Meanwhile, the extra 3" actually gives worthwhile flexibility in terms of deployment and objective holding AND Deep Strike effectiveness.
The extra rerolls from master artisan adds up over a game though. The Chapter Master aura makes the reroll to hit redundant but the wound reroll is still useful. Lieutenants only let you reroll ones.
I have played both DE and Tau in 8th and have experimented with their subfactions that have a bonus range "chapter tactic". Both are more restrictive than Long-range Marksmen but are double as effective. I found these traits really good on flamers and other short range weapons but rather lackluster on longer range guns. Also in some match ups the bonus range didn't seem to make any difference.
If you want to deep strike flamethrowers, sure run LRM. Otherwise I think there are better options.
Lemondish wrote: Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.
7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.
it looks good but he can't go anywhere without a transport. Counter Assault Lite as a Chapter Master as discussed earlier seems like a better idea.
He rides in my dakka Repulsor, so he has a transport.
Had a game with Iron Hands va White Scars today. Some thoughts:
Doctrines are pretty devastating. (Pun intended.) Marines vs Marines seems to be a battle of massive DPS and will heavily rely on who can get the first serious punch in.
Bikes are still in the unfortunate position of being 2W models, making them extremely vulnerable to autocannons and othe 2 damage weapons. (Grav with Grav-Amp stratagem as well.)
Thunderfire cannons have terrible DPS, but if you have enough command points it can be brutally powerful against assault armies - I wasn't able to kill most of his army before my first turn was over, but I was able to completely shut down his offensive power by immobilizing two of the units I couldn't kill. The tiny number of models that closed into CQC were still devestating, but it wasn't enough to hit back from the damage I did.
Azuza001 wrote: Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?
A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.
I run master artisans and the +1 charge and advance trait.
I love the reliability they lend to my lists, I play old marines, msu with lots of dreads and the re-roll are pure gold.
Obviously it's possible to get re-rolls from having a character nearby but they cant be everywhere and we play missions where you have to go out and claim ground not sit still and shoot to win. Plus, you know , the enemy can kill characters, fun fact
Like someone mentioned before. You can also use master artisan with another trait and primary founding of your choice so you dont really miss out on anything.
Before the latest codex I dont think it was the trait that just sucked but non ultramarine marines in general. If the only good list before were a repulsor castle with g man of course the salamander trait would be a straight downgrade. But that isnt the trait being bad. The RG trait was also good before but didnt help much either since the marine with the trait sucked.
More units are viable now and there are even a few more units now than before, warsuit and eliminators, that can use the traut well. Have to revalue the traits with the new units and rules ans not be stuck in the old way. Pure UM isnt always the best anymore and their chapter tactic havent changed.
Playing as Salamanders though im a bit more unsure if it is good enough until their supplement drops. Until then using master artisan + whatever and be a UM or WS successor is probably better for now so you can get more stratagems, traits, relics and special doctrine. Should be better than a straight ignore ap 1 in almost all circumstances.
Azuza001 wrote: Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?
A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.
Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.
I think the Autocannon would've been a better choice to stick with. An average of 4 shots and the consistent damage makes them a far more attractive option to the TLas.
Lemondish wrote: Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.
7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.
it looks good but he can't go anywhere without a transport. Counter Assault Lite as a Chapter Master as discussed earlier seems like a better idea.
He rides in my dakka Repulsor, so he has a transport.
Hasn't let me down yet. Guy is an absolute beast.
My guess is you have a retinue of some kind for him as that's an expensive way to just transport one guy otherwise.
I've got mine magnetized, so that's not an issue, and I've been mostly using it as a dakkapred (made some Necron destroyers really sad one game), but the las configuration is, like I said, my only good source of anti-armor that I physically own. Thinking I'll get with the a ven dread with las and missile.
Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.
Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!
Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)
DoomMouse wrote: Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.
Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!
Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)
I’m curious if it’s still worth it for the sarge to not shoot for the +1s when you have the re-rolls. With a small squad, it seems just the extra shots might be better.
With a Master Artisan reroll and a T6-9, the math is slightly in favor of using the Sergeant buff. 1.325 wounds with 2 +1+1 shots vs 1.123 with 3 normal shots.
This is in contrast to when you're shooting T3-4, which is slightly in favor of taking the 3 shots. I haven't run the numbers for T5 yet
DoomMouse wrote: Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.
Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!
Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)
I'm not really interested in the Master Artisans numbers (I don't play Chapters for their rules), but without external buffs (but with Guided Aim) Mortis Eliminators and Lasfusil Eliminators inflict the same number of wounds against T8 5++ targets (1.11 per model).
Against T8 no invulnerable it's 1.11 vs 1.38. Interestingly, proportionally to point cost Mortis Eliminators do more damage.
It's against T7 no invulnerable (1.11 vs 1.73) when Lasfusil shine even when considering their higher cost.
There are a few T7 no invulnerable vehicles out there. I don't know if they are enough to justify the purely anti-tank configuration. But it's important to keep in mind that Knights are not the whole vehicle meta.
DoomMouse wrote: Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.
Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!
Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)
I'm not really interested in the Master Artisans numbers (I don't play Chapters for their rules), but without external buffs (but with Guided Aim) Mortis Eliminators and Lasfusil Eliminators inflict the same number of wounds against T8 5++ targets (1.11 per model).
Against T8 no invulnerable it's 1.11 vs 1.38. Interestingly, proportionally to point cost Mortis Eliminators do more damage.
It's against T7 no invulnerable (1.11 vs 1.73) when Lasfusil shine even when considering their higher cost.
There are a few T7 no invulnerable vehicles out there. I don't know if they are enough to justify the purely anti-tank configuration. But it's important to keep in mind that Knights are not the whole vehicle meta.
True but the minimal benifit for the total loss of sniper ability or the ability to blind fire, makes the las configuration feel very much only the better option on such a small match up combo that for a TAC list it's just not worth considering.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I think the Autocannon would've been a better choice to stick with. An average of 4 shots and the consistent damage makes them a far more attractive option to the TLas.
Lemondish wrote: Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.
7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.
it looks good but he can't go anywhere without a transport. Counter Assault Lite as a Chapter Master as discussed earlier seems like a better idea.
He rides in my dakka Repulsor, so he has a transport.
Hasn't let me down yet. Guy is an absolute beast.
My guess is you have a retinue of some kind for him as that's an expensive way to just transport one guy otherwise.
Agreed on the Autocannon.
And yes - but his retinue really depends on the opponent. Most times it's a 3 man squad of Aggressors alongside an Lt with power sword and the Ancient. Sometimes it's worth splitting them up to avoid the "too many fish in a barrel" issue.
Thankfully I've found other threats to add in the list that make it hard for someone to always choose that particular Repulsor to focus.
There are some decent deployment maps against some fast forces that make it better to just march him up the board and meet them head on, but that's not something I'd often plan for.
Good thing nothing about building this guy comes from wargear so if he won't be doing me proud then I don't really need him that match.
DoomMouse wrote: Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.
Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!
Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)
I'm not really interested in the Master Artisans numbers (I don't play Chapters for their rules), but without external buffs (but with Guided Aim) Mortis Eliminators and Lasfusil Eliminators inflict the same number of wounds against T8 5++ targets (1.11 per model).
Against T8 no invulnerable it's 1.11 vs 1.38. Interestingly, proportionally to point cost Mortis Eliminators do more damage.
It's against T7 no invulnerable (1.11 vs 1.73) when Lasfusil shine even when considering their higher cost.
There are a few T7 no invulnerable vehicles out there. I don't know if they are enough to justify the purely anti-tank configuration. But it's important to keep in mind that Knights are not the whole vehicle meta.
Took me so long to figure out they changed the round names from the Shadowspear codex. In the old one the mortis was the ignore los shot lol
Azuza001 wrote: Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?
A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.
Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.
I just did the comparison between a LC Predator and LC Relic Contemptor.
Contemptor is 15pts more, and gets:
+1 Wound
+1 Armor
5+ Invuln
+1 BS 6+ FNP And has room for a Cyclone Missile Launcher.
The Predator:
Moves slightly faster until it gets damaged, then moves slower
Isn't a Relic
Can take a HKM
The dreadnought comes out *Massively* on top. The only significant advantage is that you don't need a second unit in the same detachment to take a Predator.
It isn't hard to meet those extra Elite requirements though. Ancients with the Relic Banner are still a fantastic pick, and with everyone still getting access to Honour Guard that's a quick 50 point tax and extra wounds for your HQ if you so wish.
Call me crazy, but Stormhawks look pretty decent. Devastator doctrine helps them so much, and if you're Ultras (and find yourself in Tac doctrine) they can fly around without worrying about the hit-modifier for their heavy weapons (all of them). Depending on what the Devastator focused chapters have they could be nuts for them.
Azuza001 wrote: Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?
A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.
Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.
I just did the comparison between a LC Predator and LC Relic Contemptor.
Contemptor is 15pts more, and gets:
+1 Wound
+1 Armor
5+ Invuln
+1 BS 6+ FNP And has room for a Cyclone Missile Launcher.
The Predator:
Moves slightly faster until it gets damaged, then moves slower
Isn't a Relic
Can take a HKM
The dreadnought comes out *Massively* on top. The only significant advantage is that you don't need a second unit in the same detachment to take a Predator.
It's 168pts for a 4las Contemptor Mortis, which isn't a Relic either. No 6+ FNP, but meh?
Azuza001 wrote: Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?
A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.
Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.
I just did the comparison between a LC Predator and LC Relic Contemptor.
Contemptor is 15pts more, and gets:
+1 Wound
+1 Armor
5+ Invuln
+1 BS 6+ FNP And has room for a Cyclone Missile Launcher.
The Predator:
Moves slightly faster until it gets damaged, then moves slower
Isn't a Relic
Can take a HKM
The dreadnought comes out *Massively* on top. The only significant advantage is that you don't need a second unit in the same detachment to take a Predator.
It's 168pts for a 4las Contemptor Mortis, which isn't a Relic either. No 6+ FNP, but meh?
You forgot to mention that the dread can do some damage in melee with 4 attacks, hitting on 2+, with S7 AP0 D1. The pred has 3 attacks, hitting on 6+, with S6 AP0 D1 The pred shouldnt cost more than 140-150 pts.
Fun fact about the relic contemptor dread, you can re-roll hit rolls of 1s for its plasma blastguns, when it has two melee weapons
How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!
Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.
Rogerio134134 wrote: How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!
Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.
dip those hands in blue and run them as the ultramarines!
joking aside I have no issue with it, If you decided to switch perminatly to iron hands I'd proably prefer to see you repaint your army but obviously that's not practical and an ideal. parituclarly as you may just really like the paint job.
Rogerio134134 wrote: How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!
Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.
I have zero problem with it whatsoever, I myself have a red space marine army, sometimes they are blood angels but most of the time they are something else, the beauty of a space marine army is that it can be played with a vast array of different rules and playstyle.
Some people do seem a little put out when people use the wrong colour marine rules and that is there choice and opinion. This type of thing only seems to be an issue with marines though as noone blinks an eye at the various colours of always alaitoc eldar, different scheme bugs and cults and various shades of drybrushed necrons. The fact that marines chapters are well known and usually distinctly different colour blocks makes people think that for some reason the rules should be applied differently.
As always paint your models how you want to, if you want to paint a brown and pink Roboute then feel free and still play with it.
All that said it is important that your opponent knows what you are playing with, so having the correct wargear modelled is a must and having different detachments using different chapter rules but with models painted in the same scheme is a no go. Both players need to feel fully informed and happy when playing.
That's cool yeah I am a big crimson fist fanboy and will use the rules when they are eventually released but I've got quite alot of dreadnoughts and vehicles and I think it would work quite well for the models I have.
I'm still toying with a secondary chapter for fun though... Can't help myself
Trying to think of some way to make an all-dreadnought army somewhat viable in a semi-competitive meta. Iron Hands obviously.
3 Invictors infiltrating would deal with chaff and put a pretty big dent in hordes, but if I came up against Knights? Or any army with a lot of armour? I just can't see where enough firepower would come from.
It may only be viable with the FW Leviathan, but I can't afford any of them right now...
Thoughts? Will relic contemptors do enough damage? Do I have to take my own Knight?
Having a game on friday and I'm going to be trying out some old units that haven't seen the tabletop in a few years.
What are your thoughts on applications and loads outs for the following:
Centurian devestators - thinking of running then with Lascannon/hurricans and keeping an apothecary nearby.
Sternguard in a pod - the special issue bolter seems like a must take, fist on srg.
Tactical terminators with cyclone - these love ultramarine tactical doc turn two.
Terminator captain with chainfist - cheap alternative to the captain smash to drop do with the sternguard and terms.
Company champion - seems very solid for the points, gonna pop him in the pod and see if he can surprise any characters. Can take the shield eternal as it can now replace a combat shield which seems tasty.
I run ultra successors with master artisans and +1 advance and charge traits as I love the reliability they lend.
For anti tank I really think invictors and do the job with a strength 14 power fist and 5 attacks the first round of combat with ap -3 and flat 3 damage that's good!
Azuza001 wrote: Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?
A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.
Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.
I just did the comparison between a LC Predator and LC Relic Contemptor.
Contemptor is 15pts more, and gets:
+1 Wound
+1 Armor
5+ Invuln
+1 BS 6+ FNP And has room for a Cyclone Missile Launcher.
The Predator:
Moves slightly faster until it gets damaged, then moves slower
Isn't a Relic
Can take a HKM
The dreadnought comes out *Massively* on top. The only significant advantage is that you don't need a second unit in the same detachment to take a Predator.
It's 168pts for a 4las Contemptor Mortis, which isn't a Relic either. No 6+ FNP, but meh?
It also looses 2 wounds and only has a 3+ sv Degrades after 4 wounds not 5 etc
It's not that it's a bad choice it's more their is more too it.
For some lists not having to met the relic requirement can be a big selling point in it's favour.
Rogerio134134 wrote: For anti tank I really think invictors and do the job with a strength 14 power fist and 5 attacks the first round of combat with ap -3 and flat 3 damage that's good!
You need to get there first. So you need something to help clean up the screening blob in addition to your arm mount HF.
Rogerio134134 wrote: How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!
Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.
A proud son of Dorn would play with their underdeveloped rules until the supplement arrives but it's your choice.
Most people won't care at all.
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.
Rogerio134134 wrote: How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!
Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.
A proud son of Dorn would play with their underdeveloped rules until the supplement arrives but it's your choice.
Most people won't care at all.
Lol I have been recently and tbh I've done alright I just get excited when I see shiny new books!!
I have another question however.. Can successor chapters just use their parent chapters rules and relics etc? Say can novamarines just be Ultramarines or Brazen Claws be iron hands without having to use the "inheritors of the primarch" trait?
Rogerio134134 wrote: How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!
Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.
A proud son of Dorn would play with their underdeveloped rules until the supplement arrives but it's your choice.
Most people won't care at all.
Lol I have been recently and tbh I've done alright I just get excited when I see shiny new books!!
I have another question however.. Can successor chapters just use their parent chapters rules and relics etc? Say can novamarines just be Ultramarines or Brazen Claws be iron hands without having to use the "inheritors of the primarch" trait?
Yes, just make it clear before the game starts to avoid confusion. Personally I'm creating a custom chapter that are supposed to be expert hunters and both White Scars and Raven Guard fluff/ rules can work for that so I'm getting both and will play with either depending on what I feel like. Also going to get Primaris Shrike so while fluffwise he'll be from my own chapter I will have to use "pure" Raven Guard rules in order to not have an illegal list.
Can anyone offer me some advice on what to get next. I basically have DI and a couple extra things, about 1300pts currently. Custom chapter, run as Imperial Fists atm. Want to build up to 1500/2000 pts
Primaris Captain
2xPrimaris Lieutents
Librarian in phobos
Smash Captain
Redemptor Dread
Company Ancient
2x5 Intecessors
5 Hellblasters
3 Inceptors (bolters)
3 bikes + attack bike
Main options of what to get next seem to be:
Troops - Would a second lot of Intecessors be best, or wait for Incursors to come out?
Anti-tank - Get more Hellblasters, or something else?
Get a third elite to run a vanguard detachment, another redemptor or aggressors maybe?
Rogerio134134 wrote: For anti tank I really think invictors and do the job with a strength 14 power fist and 5 attacks the first round of combat with ap -3 and flat 3 damage that's good!
You need to get there first. So you need something to help clean up the screening blob in addition to your arm mount HF.
What would you suggest instead? More screen clearers or some more firepower?
I have another question however.. Can successor chapters just use their parent chapters rules and relics etc? Say can novamarines just be Ultramarines or Brazen Claws be iron hands without having to use the "inheritors of the primarch" trait?
this is a good question that deserves more discussion.
It looks like an Ultramarines successor can use the stratagems, psychic powers, half the relics, and the Scions of Guilleman ability. They can choose their own Chapter Tactics if you want. But they cannot use Calgar and the other dataslates in the supplement.
I'm doing this with my bone-colored marines. Sticking with the Fall Back and Shoot for now.
Shooter wrote: Can anyone offer me some advice on what to get next. I basically have DI and a couple extra things, about 1300pts currently. Custom chapter, run as Imperial Fists atm. Want to build up to 1500/2000 pts
Primaris Captain
2xPrimaris Lieutents
Librarian in phobos
Smash Captain
Redemptor Dread
Company Ancient
2x5 Intecessors
5 Hellblasters
3 Inceptors (bolters)
3 bikes + attack bike
Main options of what to get next seem to be:
Troops - Would a second lot of Intecessors be best, or wait for Incursors to come out?
Anti-tank - Get more Hellblasters, or something else?
Get a third elite to run a vanguard detachment, another redemptor or aggressors maybe?
Open to suggestions!
Troops - Out of the DI box you have two squads of Bolt Rifle Intercessors. The stand-alone box would give you a 5-man with Autobolters and a 5-man with Stalkers if you want, that's more versatility for your army. (Also, look into trading for a Power Fist or two; they're pretty good on Intercessor Sergeants.) Also, if you're not set on pure Primaris Scouts are a good investment. The basic four-bolters-and-a-Heavy-Bolter box is still pretty cheap and sometimes you'll just need to shave 30 point out of your troop selections to fit something else in the list
AT - The Eliminator box is droping soon, if you're looking for AT and want to stay pure Primaris Lasfusiles are a good value. If you're not looking to stay pure Primaris and/or the Executioner is too spendy for your tastes then the Vindicator and Whirlwind are both a lot of bang for your buck (although Vindicators are better in pairs).
Suppressors aren't out as a stand-alone yet but they're also pretty good, especially if your meta isn't full of Knights and Guard.
Elites - Aggressors, full stop. Excellent unit. Again, if you're not looking for pure Primaris the regular Dreadnaught and Venerable Dreadnaught straddle the Elite and AT lines, and the Ironclad Dread is a hidden gem. Some people locally swear by Stormshield and Stormbolter Vets in a Lascannon Razorback, I personally haven't had the greatest results out of them.
Edit: Forgot one: Chaplains. They can hand out a +1 to-wound now, and on some units with a large number of low-quality shots (Aggressors, Redemptors, Centurions, etc) that can be huge.
Rogerio134134 wrote: How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!
Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.
Crimson Fists are terrible so nobody should blame you for trying out other styles of Marines.
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.
The wording is terrible and vague, but I am assuming you can’t do this to get around the relic penalty, that the cost purchase has to be in place of the free one.
As to the running Novamarines as whatever, I should hope no opponent would care. Known second foundings get left in a weird area where as written it seems you’re expected to use the watered down UM rules, just cause you liked the color which is silly. Why take a first founding chapter tactic and then cut yourself out the special chars and relics?
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.
The wording is terrible and vague, but I am assuming you can’t do this to get around the relic penalty, that the cost purchase has to be in place of the free one.
All the "you get access to a relic of your primogenitors" does is allow you access to one (1) relic from your founding chapter. It does not increase the number of relics you're allowed to take in a game. IOW, if you want a single relic, pay 1 CP to make it a named chapter relic. If you want a named chapter relic on top of a free generic one, you'll need to spend 2 CP.
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.
The wording is terrible and vague, but I am assuming you can’t do this to get around the relic penalty, that the cost purchase has to be in place of the free one.
As to the running Novamarines as whatever, I should hope no opponent would care. Known second foundings get left in a weird area where as written it seems you’re expected to use the watered down UM rules, just cause you liked the color which is silly. Why take a first founding chapter tactic and then cut yourself out the special chars and relics?
Which is exactly why I will be running definitely-not-Shrike for my definitely-not-Raven Guard
Ironhands are definitely going to be tough armies to crack. Flyers became more interesting (still not willing to say competitive just yet, but at least semi competitive), and dreadnaughts.... i just dont see anything wanting to deal with that kind of crazy.
I mean a redemptor at +1 to hit from blessing spell, reroll 1's and no penitly for move and shoot, +1 ap and 6+++ with counting as double wounds for wound chart from docrine and basic trait, reducing damage by 1 from the relic and by half from the stratagem, and being healed by a tech priest because of course you will have a tech priest there.... that thing is going to be unstoppable. A relic contemptor dread from fw would be even nastier! Yeah, iron hands are something to really look at how to kill....
Rogerio134134 wrote: How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!
Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.
A proud son of Dorn would play with their underdeveloped rules until the supplement arrives but it's your choice.
Most people won't care at all.
Lol I have been recently and tbh I've done alright I just get excited when I see shiny new books!!
Crimson Fists got new rules in the March 2019 issue of White Dwarf. Are those still valid?
I wonder how the Stalker bolter intercessor compares as an Iron Hand. You will always be in dev doctrine as an Iron Hand so ap-3 d2 shot spam from intercessors could have a place against select targets. You can spread out and re-roll 1s all day and do so at no penalty. Against 2 wound targets (like other primaris) I could see it being legit. Yeah compared to an auto bolt rifle it has two less shots, but that one shot is ap-3 as opposed to ap - and 2 damage all the while being 1 point cheaper, and always re-rolling 1s.
Yeah, if I do go IH, grav devs in a pod seem an auto include. Nothing matches their AT shooting with the strat for that few points. And the Leviathan is definitely going in too.
My Aggressor UM list idea might be short lived. I liked the idea of my whole army counting as standing still from round 2 onwards, but 6fnp and moving heavies from turn 1 is hard to resist. ...I think hardest decision for IH will be how hard to lean into it. All heavies is expensive and if you go light on unboosted troops then you’ll be very short on cps vs UM lists.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I wonder how the Stalker bolter intercessor compares as an Iron Hand. You will always be in dev doctrine as an Iron Hand so ap-3 d2 shot spam from intercessors could have a place against select targets. You can spread out and re-roll 1s all day and do so at no penalty. Against 2 wound targets (like other primaris) I could see it being legit. Yeah compared to an auto bolt rifle it has two less shots, but that one shot is ap-3 as opposed to ap - and 2 damage all the while being 1 point cheaper, and always re-rolling 1s.
Anyone know any math on this?
The actual math is less important than the useability IMO. Even as ultras I am staying in dev doctrine the entire game and only moving a unit to tactical doctrine for 1 CP if I really need it (like for rapid fire stratagem) As standard in iron hands I'd be running 6 stalker bolt rifle 5 mans. The AP-3 is really deadly. Even against armor. The range is really nice too.
I've been playing Iron Hands since 6th and am quite happy to have some really solid rules that don't rely on single cheesy deathstars. My tank gunlines are going to be really, really solid with this.
What's the conventional wisdom on best screening units? Tac squads with a single heavy weapon seem cheap and fairly good at keeping chargers away, especially with the cost reduction.
3” sucks, but still, yeah that’s so good. Plus, it makes the Deredeo shield more appealing. Worst case you Ironstone the Deredeo who then can shield more stuff within 6”.
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Waaaghpower wrote: I've been playing Iron Hands since 6th and am quite happy to have some really solid rules that don't rely on single cheesy deathstars. My tank gunlines are going to be really, really solid with this.
What's the conventional wisdom on best screening units? Tac squads with a single heavy weapon seem cheap and fairly good at keeping chargers away, especially with the cost reduction.
I’m still thinking sniper Scouts. They were always good and the ability to move and reroll 1s with no aura just makes them better. But tac lascannons or something that can keep up and reroll seem good too.
3” sucks, but still, yeah that’s so good. Plus, it makes the Deredeo shield more appealing. Worst case you Ironstone the Deredeo who then can shield more stuff within 6”.
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Waaaghpower wrote: I've been playing Iron Hands since 6th and am quite happy to have some really solid rules that don't rely on single cheesy deathstars. My tank gunlines are going to be really, really solid with this.
What's the conventional wisdom on best screening units? Tac squads with a single heavy weapon seem cheap and fairly good at keeping chargers away, especially with the cost reduction.
I’m still thinking sniper Scouts. They were always good and the ability to move and reroll 1s with no aura just makes them better. But tac lascannons or something that can keep up and reroll seem good too.
You can just snipe the durrado and I believe that requires fully within. So in most cases the range is about the same.
I hate to say it but this looks nasty and the last roumer was apparently saying Imperial Fists are bordeline broken.
If their isn't some.unseen downside to Iron hands I can see a lot of calls for marine nerfs coming very soon and getting more vocal when imperial fists drop if they truely are even more over powered than iron hands are already starting to look.
Oh yeah, that Deredeo one is a wholly within aura..Well, still, between the stone and the strat to make 1 dread tougher I think it’s possibly worth considering instead of being an easy waste of points.
Damn didnt even think of speeders, 195 pts for 18 wounds putting out 18 hb shots and moving 20" a turn with all those bonuses? Thats some speed there and effective shooting.
Ice_can wrote: I hate to say it but this looks nasty and the last roumer was apparently saying Imperial Fists are bordeline broken.
If their isn't some.unseen downside to Iron hands I can see a lot of calls for marine nerfs coming very soon and getting more vocal when imperial fists drop if they truely are even more over powered than iron hands are already starting to look.
I think from most sources I have seen Ironhand's is considered to be the strongest. They are exceptionally broken though compared to the other 2 armies we have seen rules for. Even if Crimson fists is slightly less broken they are still one of the best options in all of the game.
Though - is it really fair to compare 8th edition codex to 9th edition codex?
IMHO Iron Hands is.. sisutational. they're great if you wanna run tank heavy, but not so great otherwise. and Ultramarines might be, arguably better, if your tanks are repulsor executioners.
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO Iron Hands is.. sisutational. they're great if you wanna run tank heavy, but not so great otherwise. and Ultramarines might be, arguably better, if your tanks are repulsor executioners.
How exactly? Sure the if you are running a las repulsor you would probably be better in the tactical doctrine on that unit though the AP-4 can be amazing - Even AP-5 on an executioner is hilarious when hunting 3+ tanks in cover without invunes. Or broadsides in cover. Aside from the AP bonus you are giving up 6+ FNP (so basically 3 more additional wounds) overwatch on 5+ and half damage for degradation.
For every benifit you get for being ultramarines in tactical there is a trade off of durability which in the end is not even fair.
Ultras wait for their bonus to apply turn 2 for most their units. The bonus is for inferior weapons. Their chapter tactic sucks in comparison. There is nothing situational about ironhands. Who do you think wins the matchup between Ironhands stalkers vs intercessors with bolt rifle in tactical doctrine?
My first thought is two repulsor executioners next to the ironstone. Their main problem is being too easy to one-shot, but with a -1 damage relic they might just hang around long enough to gun down the foe
You wouldn't even necessarily need to run them as pure iron hands as they don't gain anything from the super doctrine.
If im reading it right it seems the re roll 1's only applies to a single shot per heavy weapon, still a great buff but wont completely replace captains.
Ice_can wrote: I hate to say it but this looks nasty and the last roumer was apparently saying Imperial Fists are bordeline broken.
If their isn't some.unseen downside to Iron hands I can see a lot of calls for marine nerfs coming very soon and getting more vocal when imperial fists drop if they truely are even more over powered than iron hands are already starting to look.
I think from most sources I have seen Ironhand's is considered to be the strongest. They are exceptionally broken though compared to the other 2 armies we have seen rules for. Even if Crimson fists is slightly less broken they are still one of the best options in all of the game.
Though - is it really fair to compare 8th edition codex to 9th edition codex?
I dont think anyone would argue that Iron Hands where possibly the worst way to play codex 1.0?
The issue appears to be GW doing classic GW and giving the worst Chapter tactic a massive buff to now be essentially a 3 in 1 combo trait.
They then as Iron hands were the posterboys for 1.0 codex marines suck, have given them a very good super trait aswell as what lloks like some tasty relics psychic powers and strategums.
So the worst now becomes the new OP, classic over compensation GW at work.
Hi guys, great read so far I got a question which i can't find an answer to, if I use the Grey Shield WL trait to gain a second chapter tactic for my crusader units for 1 turn, will I also gain access to chapter specifiy stratagems durin that turn? Thanks and much appreciated!
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO Iron Hands is.. sisutational. they're great if you wanna run tank heavy, but not so great otherwise. and Ultramarines might be, arguably better, if your tanks are repulsor executioners.
How exactly? Sure the if you are running a las repulsor you would probably be better in the tactical doctrine on that unit though the AP-4 can be amazing - Even AP-5 on an executioner is hilarious when hunting 3+ tanks in cover without invunes. Or broadsides in cover. Aside from the AP bonus you are giving up 6+ FNP (so basically 3 more additional wounds) overwatch on 5+ and half damage for degradation.
For every benifit you get for being ultramarines in tactical there is a trade off of durability which in the end is not even fair.
Ultras wait for their bonus to apply turn 2 for most their units. The bonus is for inferior weapons. Their chapter tactic sucks in comparison. There is nothing situational about ironhands. Who do you think wins the matchup between Ironhands stalkers vs intercessors with bolt rifle in tactical doctrine?
Yeah, well, just don't let the UM touch anything that doesn't fly, as it won't be shooting next turn. Fall-back and shoot is dope, imo.
Khornatedemon wrote: If im reading it right it seems the re roll 1's only applies to a single shot per heavy weapon, still a great buff but wont completely replace captains.
You are not.
FAQ has already clarified "when resolving an attack" as applying to every individual attack.
The 2 things with this (and my Sons of Medusa) are:
1) The Captain is still needed for non-heavy weapons, like Plasma Incinerators.
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO Iron Hands is.. sisutational. they're great if you wanna run tank heavy, but not so great otherwise. and Ultramarines might be, arguably better, if your tanks are repulsor executioners.
How exactly? Sure the if you are running a las repulsor you would probably be better in the tactical doctrine on that unit though the AP-4 can be amazing - Even AP-5 on an executioner is hilarious when hunting 3+ tanks in cover without invunes. Or broadsides in cover. Aside from the AP bonus you are giving up 6+ FNP (so basically 3 more additional wounds) overwatch on 5+ and half damage for degradation.
For every benifit you get for being ultramarines in tactical there is a trade off of durability which in the end is not even fair.
Ultras wait for their bonus to apply turn 2 for most their units. The bonus is for inferior weapons. Their chapter tactic sucks in comparison. There is nothing situational about ironhands. Who do you think wins the matchup between Ironhands stalkers vs intercessors with bolt rifle in tactical doctrine?
Yeah, well, just don't let the UM touch anything that doesn't fly, as it won't be shooting next turn. Fall-back and shoot is dope, imo.
Ya, tagging units in melee is a big deal at high level play.
Absolutely, one of the most underrated game play mechanics, and one of the big reasons chaos daemons and genestealers are so spectacular. Ultramarines nix that in a big way -- Iron Hands new toys are fantastic, but fall back and shoot can be game rescuing if you don't let them take a hostage.
I think we might actually see macro plasma Redemptor dreads with IH
Nearly mathematically identical to twin Las (better ap at the cost of a bit of range) but with all the downsides handled. Guaranteed reroll 1s, degradation doesn't impact the unit as much, and movement doesn't cause a penalty any longer. Might be a valid source of AT now.
Khornatedemon wrote: If im reading it right it seems the re roll 1's only applies to a single shot per heavy weapon, still a great buff but wont completely replace captains.
You are not.
FAQ has already clarified "when resolving an attack" as applying to every individual attack.
The 2 things with this (and my Sons of Medusa) are:
1) The Captain is still needed for non-heavy weapons, like Plasma Incinerators.
and
2) I might field Heavy Plasma Incinerators now.
Ah thank you, just getting back into the game (havent played since 6th) and going through all the faqs still
Spado wrote: Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?
I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.
The wording is terrible and vague, but I am assuming you can’t do this to get around the relic penalty, that the cost purchase has to be in place of the free one.
All the "you get access to a relic of your primogenitors" does is allow you access to one (1) relic from your founding chapter. It does not increase the number of relics you're allowed to take in a game. IOW, if you want a single relic, pay 1 CP to make it a named chapter relic. If you want a named chapter relic on top of a free generic one, you'll need to spend 2 CP.
Well foop. Yeah, the wording of that strat is terrible.
Primaris Chaplain, Warlord with Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury Relic, and Mantra of Strength Litany.
7 Stength 8 AP-2 Damage 4 attacks, and every unmodified 6 to wound adds a Mortal Wound. All for 77 points.
Add a Librarian with Might of heroes for 8 Strength 9 attacks
Yes. The verdict was that while a Primaris chaplain can hit very hard, the fact that you can only footslog him if you want to make use of his litanies makes him unviable. Only way to field a smashplain is an oldmarine one with jump pack and start him on the board. And even then the good old smash captain does his job a lot more reliably. In other words, only field the smashplain if you do not mind fielding something suboptimal. The chaplain is still first and foremost a support character that happens to be able to hold his own in a scrap.
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Bryten wrote: Hi guys, great read so far I got a question which i can't find an answer to, if I use the Grey Shield WL trait to gain a second chapter tactic for my crusader units for 1 turn, will I also gain access to chapter specifiy stratagems durin that turn? Thanks and much appreciated!
No, because you do not have the keyword of the chapter that you gain the chapter tactic from. Therefore you do not gain access to their stratagems (nor other things like super-doctrines).
Primaris Chaplain, Warlord with Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury Relic, and Mantra of Strength Litany.
7 Stength 8 AP-2 Damage 4 attacks, and every unmodified 6 to wound adds a Mortal Wound. All for 77 points.
Add a Librarian with Might of heroes for 8 Strength 9 attacks
Yes. The verdict was that while a Primaris chaplain can hit very hard, the fact that you can only footslog him if you want to make use of his litanies makes him unviable. Only way to field a smashplain is an oldmarine one with jump pack and start him on the board. And even then the good old smash captain does his job a lot more reliably. In other words, only field the smashplain if you do not mind fielding something suboptimal. The chaplain is still first and foremost a support character that happens to be able to hold his own in a scrap.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bryten wrote: Hi guys, great read so far I got a question which i can't find an answer to, if I use the Grey Shield WL trait to gain a second chapter tactic for my crusader units for 1 turn, will I also gain access to chapter specifiy stratagems durin that turn? Thanks and much appreciated!
No, because you do not have the keyword of the chapter that you gain the chapter tactic from. Therefore you do not gain access to their stratagems (nor other things like super-doctrines).
Thanks for the reply, below is the wording of the second paragraph. It is a bit unclear to me, do you still think chapter specific stratagems are not possible? They gain the keyword, rules are however implying that it is for the purpose of resolving the new chapter tactic. Please let me know what you think.
"Until the start of your next turn, friendly Indomitus Crusaders gain the benefit of that chapter tactic in addition to any others they already have. They are considered to have the keyword of that chapter tactic belongs to for the purpose of resolving that chapter tactic."
"Until the start of your next turn, friendly Indomitus Crusaders gain the benefit of that chapter tactic in addition to any others they already have. They are considered to have the keyword of that chapter tactic belongs to for the purpose of resolving that chapter tactic."
Emphasis mine. They dont have the keyword. They are considered to have it solely so they benefit from the bonus chapter tactic. You do not gain access to new stratagems as a result, nor can they be targeted by stratagems locked to the keyword of the second chapter.
Bryten: not implied, specifically stated. The unit is only considered to have the keyword for the purposes of resolving the chapter tactic.
Pandabeer: I had thought of that issue and the Jump Chaplain normie marine being a better choice. He only loses 1A and 1W, but costs more. Still viable in some aspects.
I had thought a way around it would be an Impulsor, but the timing on litanies throws that out.
Could still be used like the old IC rules: impulsor him + 5 man squad nearish enemy lines Turn 1 and get out, bury him in the unit, Turn 2 litany and smash.
But really he would only be good at wrecking enemy characters and big things(potentially 1-assault a knight Dominus), damage is mostly wasted on enemy heavy infantry.
I think everyone needs to step back from the ledge about the iron hands. They have a strong buff. They can move and shoot heavy weapons and reroll 1s on heavy weapons.
Very good, very strong, but they still die slightly slower than other marines.
If you go very vehicle heavy you will not have that much screening and be susceptible to getting charged and wrapped in combat. It’s not that difficult to take a primaris unit hostage. You can use infiltrators but they’re pricy and the more you take the less guns you’re going to have. Take a deep breath and look at the army as a whole. They make expensive units better but to maximize their trait they have to take expensive units which means their mode count won’t be very high.
demontalons wrote: I think everyone needs to step back from the ledge about the iron hands. They have a strong buff. They can move and shoot heavy weapons and reroll 1s on heavy weapons.
Very good, very strong, but they still die slightly slower than other marines.
If you go very vehicle heavy you will not have that much screening and be susceptible to getting charged and wrapped in combat. It’s not that difficult to take a primaris unit hostage. You can use infiltrators but they’re pricy and the more you take the less guns you’re going to have. Take a deep breath and look at the army as a whole. They make expensive units better but to maximize their trait they have to take expensive units which means their mode count won’t be very high.
for that reason i think IH flyers are a beast, PotMS , resilience , can be wrapped in combat
Iron Hands are looking like a really solid choice, and the fact that their bonus doctrine rules apply from turn 1 is a huge boost. I liked the look of Ultramarines in the first instance due to the benefits they would get on bolter discipline, but only taking effect from turn 2 at the earliest was a real downside.
Some of the biggest winners for Iron Hands from what we know already are:
- Vehicles of all stripes when supported by the Ironstone relic, but especially Dreadnoughts for the sheer resilience when combined with the half damage stratagem (the exact nature of the interaction might need to be clarified, but I would expect that it's /2 then -1). The Leviathan in particular is going to be a very tough prospect to remove.
- Any vehicles without PotMS, but some of the most interesting are the smaller flyers which can now bring their full weight to bear. Stormhawks will be bringing down Eldar flyers left right and centre with their rr1s combined with the devastator doctrine -1ap, whilst remaining effective for longer in dogfights due to their natural Iron Hands resilience. The Stormtalon could now be a pretty good character sniper as well, though I'm very hyped on Eliminators so they might not find their way into my list.
- Dreadnoughts (again) due to the ability to move and shoot without penalty. Though it applies to all units, it's especially useful for dreadnoughts who are often stuck between wanting to stand still to use their weapons properly, and moving to get close enough to use their fist. Now you don't have to choose!
- Grav devastator squads got a huge boost from the main codex with the points drop and drop pod rules, but being able to ignore the penalty for moving and built in rr1s for their weapons just bumps them up even further! Laugh as you drop them in, wipe out something big, and then kill even more when they try to charge you!
- Suppressors are in a weird place, with heavy weapons but impressive maneuverability. Well, with Iron Hands, they don't have to choose between the two! I will definitely be trying these out.
I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.
That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.
DoomMouse wrote: I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.
That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.
It is clearly too strong. It practically doubles the survivability of most vehicles. It's worse than the gman buff.
DoomMouse wrote: I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.
That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.
It is clearly too strong. It practically doubles the survivability of most vehicles. It's worse than the gman buff.
DoomMouse wrote: I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.
That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.
It is clearly too strong. It practically doubles the survivability of most vehicles. It's worse than the gman buff.
Gman buff?
A free (1 CP) aura that doubles the survivability of a bunch of vehcials is more OP than a 400 point buff that lets you reroll all hits and wounds.
DoomMouse wrote: That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.
Does that mean Space Marine players will FINALLY stop complaining?
Not seeing anyone really complain about space marines being weak anymore. In fact most marine players are looking at this and see the end of the game being near.
There are 3 possibilities.
Marines will be heavily nerfed or
All the following codex will be much better than this
40k as a whole becomes a laughing stock like the end of 7th edition and people just stop playing.
Does anyone have any ideas for strong counter charge units to clear out hordes locking our vehicles up? I guess intercessors aren't too bad, and a teeth of terra captain could do work.
My main concerns are large units of boyz, plaguebearers or GSC infantry wrapping and trapping characters, vehicles and troops.
Dreadnoughts aren't going to do much against hordes or plaguebearers with their invulns
Honestly, yes SM have lot of nice new shiny rules, but what is the real gaming data telling us. Are pure win ratio looking unbeatable, in my experience no and we must see the impact in tournament meta where we eventually stand. Sure in casual games we have a chance to win, but we are still learning our tricks. We hit harder in a wide spectrum, but still die to massed dice.
How is subtracting 1 dmg to the vehicle suddenly taking half damage? Unless your anti tank idea was overcharged plasma i don't see how this is any different than wave serpents getting -1 to dmg in the end....
DoomMouse wrote: Does anyone have any ideas for strong counter charge units to clear out hordes locking our vehicles up? I guess intercessors aren't too bad, and a teeth of terra captain could do work.
My main concerns are large units of boyz, plaguebearers or GSC infantry wrapping and trapping characters, vehicles and troops.
Dreadnoughts aren't going to do much against hordes or plaguebearers with their invulns
Like you said - intercessors do this quite well. If they are on your tanks though - the intercessors are likely trounced. Psykers do really well in this situation because you can smite into combat. 2 libbies that focus on damaging spells then charge in can probably clear a 10 man unit. They can also do the neat trick of allowing a tank to shoot if they smite the tank out of combat.
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Azuza001 wrote: How is subtracting 1 dmg to the vehicle suddenly taking half damage? Unless your anti tank idea was overcharged plasma i don't see how this is any different than wave serpents getting -1 to dmg in the end....
I said practically. D3 damage and dmg2 is actually the most common form of multi damage in the game. 66% of d3 will do 1 damage instead of 2 and 3 damage will just do 2 damage. Wave serpents are extremely durable LOL.
DoomMouse wrote: Does anyone have any ideas for strong counter charge units to clear out hordes locking our vehicles up? I guess intercessors aren't too bad, and a teeth of terra captain could do work.
My main concerns are large units of boyz, plaguebearers or GSC infantry wrapping and trapping characters, vehicles and troops.
Dreadnoughts aren't going to do much against hordes or plaguebearers with their invulns
You could take an IH successor chapter with Tactical Withdrawal and just merrily fire as you drive out of melee.
Xirax wrote: Honestly, yes SM have lot of nice new shiny rules, but what is the real gaming data telling us. Are pure win ratio looking unbeatable, in my experience no and we must see the impact in tournament meta where we eventually stand. Sure in casual games we have a chance to win, but we are still learning our tricks. We hit harder in a wide spectrum, but still die to massed dice.
Mass dice I am not really concerned with. I have massed dice and I reroll most of them too. It's quality firepower that marines can't handle - though with iron hands getting a 5++ and 6+++ where most marine units get nothing....It's just silly when you tac on a -1 damage aura too.
Ravenguard preview is out. I have to say, i like it. Its not as straight forward good as iron hands but it has potential.
Scout Snipers doing mortals on a 5+? Nice.
Knight chrs / tank commanders? Yeah, bolter fire can really hurt now....
You want to charge into me with your charecter? Careful, everyone in this army has a chance to give you a bloody nose.
Yep, kinda like it. And that spell, t1 move your chaplain up outside 9", drop pods come in next to him, troops pile out, 7" charges all around. Yeah, thats pretty good.
Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.
There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.
Robtype0 wrote: I liked the look of Ultramarines in the first instance due to the benefits they would get on bolter discipline, but only taking effect from turn 2 at the earliest
To be fair, they can give Tac doctrine to something turn 1 using a stratagem. 1CP as well I think. Not bad if you have a big unit of Inctercessors or Aggressors you need online turn 1.
Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.
There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.
Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic Eliminators, come to papa...
edit: I still hope there's some kind of way to increase charge distance, even with rerolls a 9" charge is still only ~50% chance. Don't want to waste your precious smashcaptain you also just used a librarian for to port him over. Well, not that super-Eliminators aren't good enough already...
Now we gotta do all the crazy math again and factor in another +1 to hit and to wound to try and figure out the best bullet and how many bullets to fire.
(But seriously, this is probably my favorite of the super-doctrines to far).
Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.
There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.
Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic Eliminators, come to papa...
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.
There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.
Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic Eliminators, come to papa...
Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.
There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.
Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic Eliminators, come to papa...
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
Good thing that in our FLGS we always play with tons of scalable ruins so I can just take the high ground and probably spot him anyway
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
Do not underestimate what massed 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound 4+/5+ mortal wound causing shots can do to a marine infantry defensive statline.
Oh for sure if they get to use the mortis rounds. Those babies will tear up boys no mistake about it. I'm talking about the ones that are the much weaker variant that can shoot stuff even out of LOS.
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
Do not underestimate what massed 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound 4+/5+ mortal wound causing shots can do to a marine infantry defensive statline.
Oh for sure if they get to use the mortis rounds. Those babies will tear up boys no mistake about it. I'm talking about the ones that are the much weaker variant that can shoot stuff even out of LOS.
Executioner rounds. Well, I wouldn't be surprised to find a stratagem or somesuch in the supplement that will boost those as well.
Oh for sure if they get to use the mortis rounds. Those babies will tear up boys no mistake about it. I'm talking about the ones that are the much weaker variant that can shoot stuff even out of LOS.
As am I. The bonus to wound makes them significantly more deadly. And they already did a good job of shredding marine characters after the S5 bump.
DoomMouse wrote: I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.
That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.
It is clearly too strong. It practically doubles the survivability of most vehicles. It's worse than the gman buff.
Gman buff?
A free (1 CP) aura that doubles the survivability of a bunch of vehcials is more OP than a 400 point buff that lets you reroll all hits and wounds.
DoomMouse wrote: That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.
Does that mean Space Marine players will FINALLY stop complaining?
Not seeing anyone really complain about space marines being weak anymore. In fact most marine players are looking at this and see the end of the game being near.
There are 3 possibilities.
Marines will be heavily nerfed or
All the following codex will be much better than this
40k as a whole becomes a laughing stock like the end of 7th edition and people just stop playing.
I hope the first really. And a bit of the second in that I feel most other factions should also be given bonuses if they stay mono-codex or even mono-subfaction. And with nerfs I mean a bunch of point cost increases. I personally love it that I can now play marines like they are portrayed in the fluff. Super powerful, but few in number. Although at their current pricing you might be able to just field too many of them so if there are going to be nerfs they should be made more expensive so you can put less models on the table (instead of the previous trend of price drops and marines starting to feel like guardsmen +1). That is,. IF they prove to be OP (it certainly looks that way but there's no way to say for sure until we see results). Howeverm, don't forget their complete inability to soup if they want their best stuff, that is quite a heavy counterweight in a meta that up till now is heavily dominated by souped armies.
That RG one sure is interesting. Not directly army killy, but I wonder if it will change the meta by existing? You can’t aurahammer if marines in general can easily threaten weak supports and 1 chapter can basically sweep all your chars by turn 2.
Oh for sure if they get to use the mortis rounds. Those babies will tear up boys no mistake about it. I'm talking about the ones that are the much weaker variant that can shoot stuff even out of LOS.
As am I. The bonus to wound makes them significantly more deadly. And they already did a good job of shredding marine characters after the S5 bump.
Ehh I'm just not seeing it. Even 9 of those shots from three whole squads gets like 8 hits. Let's say 7 wounds. ap-1 to a 3+ = about 3.5 wounds which the Iron Hand has a 6+++ against. Assuming no apothecary it;s going to take two dedicated rounds of shooting from three whole squads to take the boy down. If it's a gravis captain potentially three rounds. If they have an apothecary you'll need to kill him first which means redirecting shots from the choice HQ to the support elite. I just don't see plinking away with ap-1 1 damage shots to be effective at dropping an Iron Hand Primaris HQ.
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.
They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.
They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.
Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.
Ehh I'm just not seeing it. Even 9 of those shots from three whole squads gets like 8 hits. Let's say 7 wounds. ap-1 to a 3+ = about 3.5 wounds which the Iron Hand has a 6+++ against. Assuming no apothecary it;s going to take two dedicated rounds of shooting from three whole squads to take the boy down. If it's a gravis captain potentially three rounds. If they have an apothecary you'll need to kill him first which means redirecting shots from the choice HQ to the support elite. I just don't see plinking away with ap-1 1 damage shots to be effective at dropping an Iron Hand Primaris HQ.
Doubt it all you want, but practical experience tells a different story. I run 3x3 Eliminators with Master Artisans in support of my Deathwatch. They absolutely massacre non-Custodian characters.
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.
They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.
Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.
Where does it say vehicles can't take relics? Relics have rules for what can take them.
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.
They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.
Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.
Where does it say vehicles can't take relics? Relics have rules for what can take them.
In the rules for taking relics in codex space marines, also how are they making vehicles into characters in the first place?
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.
They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.
Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.
Where does it say vehicles can't take relics? Relics have rules for what can take them.
In the rules for taking relics in codex space marines, also how are they making vehicles into characters in the first place?
They have a stratagem to do it we have learned. Vehicles not being able to take relics is stupid. Knights can take relics. It's actually called a relic leviathan and you can give it forge world relics.
Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.
But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1
It's odd how much worse the raven guard super doctrine is compared to the iron hands one. I guess it maybe gives them a reason to use stalker bolt rifles with their sniper rifle strat to just pile mortal wounds on something. The end result is probably to give them a better chance against knights (who will particularly fear plasma inceptors and hellblasters), but not much else.
On the other (iron) hand, a buff that affects the devastator doctrine is inherently great, because it kicks in on turn 1* - which is usually the most important turn. But it's also a far more significant buff, particuarly to vehicles like dreadnoughts and vindicators which want to move but don't have potms.
You really have to think quite hard to see how to use the raven guard ability, whereas the iron hands one is powerful in obvious ways. That's generally a good indication of which is best.
My fingers are so crossed right now for my Crimson Fists' ability. Please don't make it suck, GW!
*This is also the downside of the white scar doctrine - it happens too late.
To be fair when frontline gaming was doing one of their podcasts they said iron hands was going to be the most powerful because it was the simplest and easiest to use / get your head around.
I am seeing a lot of use from the ravenguard trait really. Every army has chrs in it and if your fighting ravenwing it doesnt matter, you have to protect your chrs because every thing is a threat. Even scouts can do some damage to a chr!
I forsee a lot of ravenguard sniper detachments popping up. How many points is a stalker captain and 3 eliminator squads in a spearhead? By turn two, you'll Have plinked out most enemy foot characters in an army. And that's not even knowing what any of the snipey based relics/traits/psychics are yet,
McGibs wrote: I forsee a lot of ravenguard sniper detachments popping up. How many points is a stalker captain and 3 eliminator squads in a spearhead? By turn two, you'll Have plinked out most enemy foot characters in an army. And that's not even knowing what any of the snipey based relics/traits/psychics are yet,
330ish depending on load out. But it wouldn't have to be a spearhead. Marine brigades are looking good now that CP are in demand, and there are just so many units that each slot has something that is good, cheap or both. And remember you don't get the super doctrine unless you're all the same chapter, so it's not like a Raven Guard eliminator spearhead is plug and play. What could be, though, is the same spearhead with master artisans and stealthy. With the built in rerolls you might be better taking a Phobos librarian in that case for some added utility.
and rememebr you only get the doctrine bonus if you're running a 100% pure army so no ravenguard spearheard accompanying an ultramarines battalion
The wording is the entire army must have doctrines in order to get the bonus.
Is there an FAQ? Otherwise there is nothing stopping you having mixed Codex Compliant Chapters.
Extrapolation from Ultra and Scars Supplements; both state you do not get the following abilities unless your army(besides UNALIGNED) are all Ultra/scar or the same Ultra/scar successor(so not even 2 detachments from different successors)
and rememebr you only get the doctrine bonus if you're running a 100% pure army so no ravenguard spearheard accompanying an ultramarines battalion
The wording is the entire army must have doctrines in order to get the bonus.
Is there an FAQ? Otherwise there is nothing stopping you having mixed Codex Compliant Chapters.
Extrapolation from Ultra and Scars Supplements; both state you do not get the following abilities unless your army(besides UNALIGNED) are all Ultra/scar or the same Ultra/scar successor(so not even 2 detachments from different successors)
Good thing the army I'm currently working on is White Scars and Raven Guard and I don't care about the bonus as much!
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.
To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.
They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.
Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.
Where does it say vehicles can't take relics? Relics have rules for what can take them.
In the rules for taking relics in codex space marines, also how are they making vehicles into characters in the first place?
They have a stratagem to do it we have learned. Vehicles not being able to take relics is stupid. Knights can take relics. It's actually called a relic leviathan and you can give it forge world relics.
DoomMouse wrote: Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.
But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1
Personally I love it. It's fluffy and powerful at the same time without being overbearing. It will really force your opponent to adapt his playstyle unless he wants to lose all his most important units in no time at all. Going to be a lot of fun playing cat and mouse with my opponent while he tries to hide his characters and get rid of my Eliminators.
DoomMouse wrote: Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.
But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1
Personally I love it. It's fluffy and powerful at the same time without being overbearing. It will really force your opponent to adapt his playstyle unless he wants to lose all his most important units in no time at all. Going to be a lot of fun playing cat and mouse with my opponent while he tries to hide his characters and get rid of my Eliminators.
I doubt their is any cat and mouse going on here it's simply can I annihilate your snipers before you annihilate my charictors. If yes I win, if not yeah fun times playing with zero buff bots in aura hammer edition.
Also RIP knights
Raven guard eliminators are certainly fantastic. The sniper ones are even a threat to knights – probably doing more damage point for point than las fusils thanks to the mortal wounds. It’s going to be fun firing plasma inceptors and hellblasters at them too, with no risk of exploding.
But you can’t have an army of eliminators – you can only have nine – and not everyone plays knights. I guess you could bring a bunch of sniper scouts too.
It’ll be interesting to see how this works on the table. Knocking the characters out from an army can make a huge difference in some cases, particularly against chaos.
DoomMouse wrote: Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.
But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1
Personally I love it. It's fluffy and powerful at the same time without being overbearing. It will really force your opponent to adapt his playstyle unless he wants to lose all his most important units in no time at all. Going to be a lot of fun playing cat and mouse with my opponent while he tries to hide his characters and get rid of my Eliminators.
The thing is that eliminators are already really good at killing characters, even if you don't pick raven guard. Even with NO chapter tactics and NO auras, three squads (on average) pick up a space marine captain per turn. Eliminators are probably better run as iron hands! They get to move and shoot for no penalty (so you can start them out of LOS and walk out to shoot with mortis rounds your turn 1). AND they get native reroll ones to hit thrown in. And all of this happens turn 1, not turn 2. It says something when iron hands can potentially do sniping characters better than RG (as well as doing all heavy weapon shooting better).
Hopefully RG have some great powers, strats and warlord traits to balance this out cos they're pretty subpar at the momeny
The main issue I have with the Raven Guard trait, is, that against the most common characters you generally don’t need the +1 hit and wound, and, for those characters you’d like it for (i.e Knights and Primarchs etc), you’re looking to kill them turn 1 anyway, so by the time the bonus is active, the target will hopefully be dead anyway.
I just feel, that whilst it is thematic that the RG attempt to “Cut off the Head”, I just think that the other Chapters just do it, and everything else, much better.
I think that they made a mistake not letting you choose which doctrine to start in. (It could even be made into a stratagem perhaps?)
It just makes white scars so much worse (the game could easily already be decided by turn 3, and assault armies really don't need more obstacles). The raven guard doctrine could be interesting if it started turn 1, but I totally don't see the point if you have to wait for it.
So far iron hands look like the clear winner, with some UM builds being good (particularly aggressors!). The ultramarine buff is strong enough that it could be worth waiting a turn for if you built around it.
I think Imperial/Crimson Fists could be seriously filthy too though. Assuming that Centurion strat from Vigilus will make it's way into their book, combined with their new tactics.
DoomMouse wrote: I think that they made a mistake not letting you choose which doctrine to start in. (It could even be made into a stratagem perhaps?)
It just makes white scars so much worse (the game could easily already be decided by turn 3, and assault armies really don't need more obstacles). The raven guard doctrine could be interesting if it started turn 1, but I totally don't see the point if you have to wait for it.
So far iron hands look like the clear winner, with some UM builds being good (particularly aggressors!). The ultramarine buff is strong enough that it could be worth waiting a turn for if you built around it.
I don't know. Yes, it would certainly be fantastic if White Scars could start off in tactical doctrine, remove screens with a hail of improved bolter fire, then switch to assault doctrine T2 for a massive charge with bikers and deepstrikers. On the other hand, that might be too powerful as well. I am personally of the opinion that RG and WS have powerful super-doctrines without being too much but Iron Hands certainly look a little overpowered at the moment, with UM being at the border between just strong and OP.
Mandragola wrote: Raven guard eliminators are certainly fantastic. The sniper ones are even a threat to knights – probably doing more damage point for point than las fusils thanks to the mortal wounds. It’s going to be fun firing plasma inceptors and hellblasters at them too, with no risk of exploding.
But you can’t have an army of eliminators – you can only have nine – and not everyone plays knights. I guess you could bring a bunch of sniper scouts too.
It’ll be interesting to see how this works on the table. Knocking the characters out from an army can make a huge difference in some cases, particularly against chaos.
Specifically against vehicle characters like knights, las fusils edge out mortis rounds. But just a little.
1/6 more likely to woud, and (against not a knight) 1/6 more likely to not get saved. Then we have a flat 3 damage on wounds suffered vs d3 with a 1/3 chance mortal wound.
Bolt sniper rifles are still very effective in tactical doctrine with RG against vehilce characters, and even more effective vs non-vehicle characters so are still the better choice in such an army.
The effect of forcing you to start in devastator doctrine is certainly that it’s better if your super-doctrine works in devastator mode. It’s really easy to build an army around essentially having an always on bonus of -1 ap to most of your guns, rerolls of 1s and no penalty to move and shoot.
It’s also super frustrating for those of us who don’t know what our bonuses will be yet. They hugely affect the kinds of things we’ll want to have in our armies, as we can see with how good things like UM aggressors could be. We can see that iron hands want suppressors and raven guard probably want inceptors instead (or totally different stuff) but I’ve got no real clue what my Crimson Fists will want.
Mandragola wrote: Raven guard eliminators are certainly fantastic. The sniper ones are even a threat to knights – probably doing more damage point for point than las fusils thanks to the mortal wounds. It’s going to be fun firing plasma inceptors and hellblasters at them too, with no risk of exploding.
But you can’t have an army of eliminators – you can only have nine – and not everyone plays knights. I guess you could bring a bunch of sniper scouts too.
It’ll be interesting to see how this works on the table. Knocking the characters out from an army can make a huge difference in some cases, particularly against chaos.
Specifically against vehicle characters like knights, las fusils edge out mortis rounds. But just a little.
1/6 more likely to woud, and (against not a knight) 1/6 more likely to not get saved. Then we have a flat 3 damage on wounds suffered vs d3 with a 1/3 chance mortal wound.
Bolt sniper rifles are still very effective in tactical doctrine with RG against vehilce characters, and even more effective vs non-vehicle characters so are still the better choice in such an army.
An individual las fusil might beat a bolt sniper rifle, but it's significantly more expensive. That's why I think bolt sniper rifles could be better point for point - while also letting you snipe normal-sized characters.
For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.
Mandragola wrote: The effect of forcing you to start in devastator doctrine is certainly that it’s better if your super-doctrine works in devastator mode. It’s really easy to build an army around essentially having an always on bonus of -1 ap to most of your guns, rerolls of 1s and no penalty to move and shoot.
It’s also super frustrating for those of us who don’t know what our bonuses will be yet. They hugely affect the kinds of things we’ll want to have in our armies, as we can see with how good things like UM aggressors could be. We can see that iron hands want suppressors and raven guard probably want inceptors instead (or totally different stuff) but I’ve got no real clue what my Crimson Fists will want.
Bolters. Just an absolute assload of bolters. Aggressors, Centurions, Intercessors. Min squads.
But yeah, it'd be nice to know what else to build around that.
Mandragola wrote: The effect of forcing you to start in devastator doctrine is certainly that it’s better if your super-doctrine works in devastator mode. It’s really easy to build an army around essentially having an always on bonus of -1 ap to most of your guns, rerolls of 1s and no penalty to move and shoot.
It’s also super frustrating for those of us who don’t know what our bonuses will be yet. They hugely affect the kinds of things we’ll want to have in our armies, as we can see with how good things like UM aggressors could be. We can see that iron hands want suppressors and raven guard probably want inceptors instead (or totally different stuff) but I’ve got no real clue what my Crimson Fists will want.
Mandragola wrote: Raven guard eliminators are certainly fantastic. The sniper ones are even a threat to knights – probably doing more damage point for point than las fusils thanks to the mortal wounds. It’s going to be fun firing plasma inceptors and hellblasters at them too, with no risk of exploding.
But you can’t have an army of eliminators – you can only have nine – and not everyone plays knights. I guess you could bring a bunch of sniper scouts too.
It’ll be interesting to see how this works on the table. Knocking the characters out from an army can make a huge difference in some cases, particularly against chaos.
Specifically against vehicle characters like knights, las fusils edge out mortis rounds. But just a little.
1/6 more likely to woud, and (against not a knight) 1/6 more likely to not get saved. Then we have a flat 3 damage on wounds suffered vs d3 with a 1/3 chance mortal wound.
Bolt sniper rifles are still very effective in tactical doctrine with RG against vehilce characters, and even more effective vs non-vehicle characters so are still the better choice in such an army.
An individual las fusil might beat a bolt sniper rifle, but it's significantly more expensive. That's why I think bolt sniper rifles could be better point for point - while also letting you snipe normal-sized characters.
I forgot to compare cost.
But that is fine, because I already said Bolt Sniper Rifles are the all around better choice.
You will not be fighting exaulted courts every game, and after 1 game against raven guard sniper lists, most knight players will save the cps by dropping the relics on all but thier warlord. More often than not you will see non-vehicle characters, and even MC characters are not going to be hard to drop with mortis rounds.
I do particularly like how much more reliable the Raven Guard Sniper Scouts are. I didn't do the math but I'm sure that's like twice the Mortal wound output, which isn't bad for the lowered cost of Sniper Rifles now.
bmsattler wrote: For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.
You know what would be an awesome target for that teleport power? A chaplain. Instantly solves all of his mobility problems.
bmsattler wrote: For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.
You know what would be an awesome target for that teleport power? A chaplain. Instantly solves all of his mobility problems.
I mean, the dude can get a Jump Pack unless you're hellbent on Primaris for whatever reason.
bmsattler wrote: For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.
You know what would be an awesome target for that teleport power? A chaplain. Instantly solves all of his mobility problems.
I’m not seeing anything hugely awesome about teleporting RG characters. They’ll still be trying to do 9” charges that way. They already have quite a lot of options for getting close to the enemy.
The chaplain idea is interesting but it would require the 3+ roll from him and then the libby power to go off. Much more reliable to have a guy with a jump pack or bike who you can move to where he’s needed after he does his bit of praying.
Teleporting can still win objective games though. It’s pretty cool in maelstrom missions, or for grabbing things like linebreaker.
bmsattler wrote: For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.
You know what would be an awesome target for that teleport power? A chaplain. Instantly solves all of his mobility problems.
I mean, the dude can get a Jump Pack unless you're hellbent on Primaris for whatever reason.
But the power can get him to effectively Deep Strike turn 1 while still getting his Litany off, which let's you do charges from Pods much better.
DoomMouse wrote: Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.
But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1
+1 to hit and +1 to wound is double the wounding hits done to characters. Not to mention double any MW generated by sniper type rules. Considering most synergy buffs are on characters this is a big deal.
Also you basically just listed three very powerful meta units which get spammed in tournament lists- having an easier time dealing with them is only a good thing.
A lot of people are discounting how powerful removing the opponents character models is. We haven't even seen the full warlord traits, relics, and stratagems yet. White scars by looking at their combat doctrine buff are a write off, but looking at the other stuff are really good for example.
I agree the RG one has some interesting implications, building a list to remove your opponent’s buffs and making them play different than expected instead of stacking your own buffs and outpowering like usual.
If combining chapters, again remember you won’t get either super doctrine, so I’d probably look at combining chapters where you don’t care about the super as much. Like an RG shooty backfield with a WS assault group. WS’ power seems kinda subpar due to the turn 3 limit, but their ability to get in charge range turn 1 is crazy strong. Snipers to remove things too far to charge could be a good fit.
Scary thought. Such is the size of my grey pile of plastic shame, I could basically build a sizeable iron hands army with things I've already got. I've got three repulsor executioners undercoated metal, a couple of redemptors (one unbuilt, one with a Kantor blue base coat I could easily paint over), 20 intercessors, 9 suppressors and assorted infiltrators, intercessors and characters. If I got the codex, a couple of upgrade sets, some black paint and maybe the special character guy, I'd be good to go.
Iron hands invictors are really very good. All those heavy weapons with an extra -1ap and no penalty for moving and shooting. I don't have any of those yet though.
I could even use my captain in Phobos armour... maybe.
Mandragola wrote: Scary thought. Such is the size of my grey pile of plastic shame, I could basically build a sizeable iron hands army with things I've already got. I've got three repulsor executioners undercoated metal, a couple of redemptors (one unbuilt, one with a Kantor blue base coat I could easily paint over), 20 intercessors, 9 suppressors and assorted infiltrators, intercessors and characters. If I got the codex, a couple of upgrade sets, some black paint and maybe the special character guy, I'd be good to go.
Iron hands invictors are really very good. All those heavy weapons with an extra -1ap and no penalty for moving and shooting. I don't have any of those yet though.
I could even use my captain in Phobos armour... maybe.
I'm in a very similar position regarding the pile of shame! All my assorted primaris units leftover from buying box sets for other armies now have a useful purpose and some good rules to go with them. They might finally be graced with a coat of paint.
RG super doctrine and catechism of fire have some interesting implications. For example, a squad of aggressors targeting a character knight that is now the closest model.
The aggressors are now hitting on 2+ wounding on 4+ with AP-1
Not always going to be useful as it requires the target to be the closest for Catechism of Fire to come into effect. But I could definitely see it coming into play with proper board control and screen clearing
regarding iron hands, make sure when facing iron hands guys to remember that while you don't suffer the -1 penaty for moving every other pentalty applies, don't try to let an iron hands player move his executioner full speed and fire his main gun twice. I'm sure some people will try to pull that
True. On the other hand, they always get to reroll 1s for their plasma cannon things.
It’s a pretty major bonus for tanks not to need to gather up around a Captain and lieutenant. You could just run a couple of chaplain dreads as your HQs and work with the built in rerolls. Techmarines would be another good choice - preferably with conversion beaners.
Iron hands Iron Fathers should already be both rolled into one so no need to choose?
I imagine that's exactly what the new special character will be, sup'd up techmarine with special gear and a captain's re-roll bubble. As its their chapter bonus I suspect he might give a re-roll wounds bubble instead though which would be pretty insane.
WisdomLS wrote: I think the re-roll ones part of their tactic is perhaps there to help you play with let captains and more techmarines
My all dread and techmarine list is loving it :-)
Would love to see your list! I'm trying to work one out over in the Army List forum, but would be great to see another or get your advice!
Here you go, its basically a way to field all of my dreads at once :-)
Surprisingly effective on the couple of times I've played it and that was before the new codex, add it the ironhands rules and I think it will be a nightmare for certain lists to face. The obvious issue it has is getting locked in combat, deepstriking orks & cult units will cause it massive problems. I have played it with some screening scouts before but they just died being the only thing there to point infantry weapons against. More a fun list that competitive but puts out alot of hurt.
Can't decide what to run it as, full iron hands or a successor - Master artisans is amazing on the dreads then add something else for flavour. The overwatch from pure IH great but the 6+++ is wasted on a few units and the damage chart stuff only effects a couple so likely a successor is better, perhaps an extra 3" range or always in cover over 12"?
RG bonus vs characters is being really underestimated IMO. The meta is full of lord discordants, tank commanders, and knights. Furthermore beat stick characters tend to end up exposed to fire after killing something. For example a smash captain with a thunder hammer and storm shield will be hit on a 2+ and wounded on a 3+ with bolt guns. 35/36 shots will hit with a captain's aura and 2/9 hits will be an unsaved wound with the -1 ap from tactical doctrine. Bikes often also have the speed to get close to an enemy character and can end up being super deadly against T3 now with them only needing a 2+ 2+ to cause a wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also people keep saying sniper MW on 5+, no it's MW on 4+ with a chaplain.
schadenfreude wrote: RG bonus vs characters is being really underestimated IMO. The meta is full of lord discordants, tank commanders, and knights. Furthermore beat stick characters tend to end up exposed to fire after killing something. For example a smash captain with a thunder hammer and storm shield will be hit on a 2+ and wounded on a 3+ with bolt guns. 35/36 shots will hit with a captain's aura and 2/9 hits will be an unsaved wound with the -1 ap from tactical doctrine. Bikes often also have the speed to get close to an enemy character and can end up being super deadly against T3 now with them only needing a 2+ 2+ to cause a wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also people keep saying sniper MW on 5+, no it's MW on 4+ with a chaplain.
If they're the closest model and you succeed on a 3+.
The chaplain bonus really isn’t a factor. You only get +1 to wound the nearest target, which is unlikely (though not impossible) to be a character you’re sniping at.
But also a chaplain costs more than a whole new eliminator squad, has to give his bonus out at the beginning of the battle round (which is awful) and fails to do it 1 time in 3.
And unfortunately, a ravenguard chaplain with the relic Crozuis won’t do more mortal wounds either, because those only trigger on an unmodified wound roll of a 6.
I’m wondering what troops iron hands should use – if any. Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles might actually not be terrible, with no movement penalties and -3 ap all game. Dakka can be found elsewhere.
You might be better off going with things like infiltrators to keep the baddies away from all your tanks, and also to have some guys who can occupy midfield. These could be backed up by Invictor suits, which look fantastic for iron hands (as basically all their guns are heavy).
Just noticed we can give scout sergeants thunder hammers these day. Could be interesting for a first turn surprise punch for 16pts extra on a scout squad.
WisdomLS wrote: I think the re-roll ones part of their tactic is perhaps there to help you play with let captains and more techmarines
My all dread and techmarine list is loving it :-)
Would love to see your list! I'm trying to work one out over in the Army List forum, but would be great to see another or get your advice!
Here you go, its basically a way to field all of my dreads at once :-)
Surprisingly effective on the couple of times I've played it and that was before the new codex, add it the ironhands rules and I think it will be a nightmare for certain lists to face. The obvious issue it has is getting locked in combat, deepstriking orks & cult units will cause it massive problems. I have played it with some screening scouts before but they just died being the only thing there to point infantry weapons against. More a fun list that competitive but puts out alot of hurt.
Can't decide what to run it as, full iron hands or a successor - Master artisans is amazing on the dreads then add something else for flavour. The overwatch from pure IH great but the 6+++ is wasted on a few units and the damage chart stuff only effects a couple so likely a successor is better, perhaps an extra 3" range or always in cover over 12"?
That's an impressive amount of Dreads at 2,000! Interested as to why you take the Hurricane Bolter on the Ironclad? Just for a little more screen-clearing? How do two Thunderfire Cannons fare against hordes?
What's the best loadout for a Leviathan? I get the feeling that double Stormcannon Array is usually the way to go, since it's the cheapest gun with the best rate of fire and longest range, but the other options seem interesting as well. (Basically fusing two Venerable dreadmoughts with double autocannons together.)
Also, do people ever have issues deploying it into a gunline, since it has such short range? Being able to move and shoot will help some, but a mere 24" isn't all that long.
I was just thinking how a deredeo giving my gun line a 5++ would be sweet and then they go and give the iron father char the same ability. As long as he isnt super expensive he has to be an auto include.
His aura is actually far better than the Deredeo's. That requires units to be wholly within 6" of the dread, which is difficult with big stuff like tanks. This guy's aura works even if just one bit of a vehicle or a single member of a squad is in range.
Doesn't look like he hands out rerolls to hit though - not that iron hands need them.
My only issue with these guys is that I think an all black army would be boring to do. I'll keep waiting to see what my Crimson Fists get. If it's anything like what Iron Hands have, I'll be pretty happy.
Edit: of course the points cost is going to be really important. He's essentially a defensive character who makes your army a bit tougher. He doesn't kill all that much himself either in shooting or melee (though he's not too bad). If he costs a lot you'll probably be better off just buying another vehicle instead.
His aura is actually far better than the Deredeo's. That requires units to be wholly within 6" of the dread, which is difficult with big stuff like tanks. This guy's aura works even if just one bit of a vehicle or a single member of a squad is in range.
Doesn't look like he hands out rerolls to hit though - not that iron hands need them.
My only issue with these guys is that I think an all black army would be boring to do. I'll keep waiting to see what my Crimson Fists get. If it's anything like what Iron Hands have, I'll be pretty happy.
Edit: of course the points cost is going to be really important. He's essentially a defensive character who makes your army a bit tougher. He doesn't kill all that much himself either in shooting or melee (though he's not too bad). If he costs a lot you'll probably be better off just buying another vehicle instead.
He kills a lot more than calgar does shooting. His weapon is a lot better. Considering its +1 Str +1 AP +1 Shot at max range of 30 and gets doctrine bonus turn 1. Calgar is at best a turn 3 melle option - more of a deterrent but its a strong one. Really this guy does just about as much damage in melee as calgar he just can't take the hits as well. Ironhands can still take a chapter master stratagem I believe.
His aura is actually far better than the Deredeo's. That requires units to be wholly within 6" of the dread, which is difficult with big stuff like tanks. This guy's aura works even if just one bit of a vehicle or a single member of a squad is in range.
Doesn't look like he hands out rerolls to hit though - not that iron hands need them.
My only issue with these guys is that I think an all black army would be boring to do. I'll keep waiting to see what my Crimson Fists get. If it's anything like what Iron Hands have, I'll be pretty happy.
Edit: of course the points cost is going to be really important. He's essentially a defensive character who makes your army a bit tougher. He doesn't kill all that much himself either in shooting or melee (though he's not too bad). If he costs a lot you'll probably be better off just buying another vehicle instead.
He kills a lot more than calgar does shooting. His weapon is a lot better. Considering its +1 Str +1 AP +1 Shot at max range of 30 and gets doctrine bonus turn 1. Calgar is at best a turn 3 melle option - more of a deterrent but its a strong one. Really this guy does just about as much damage in melee as calgar he just can't take the hits as well. Ironhands can still take a chapter master stratagem I believe.
While I agree his shooting is superior he is nowhere near the level of calgar in melee. They're not even playing the same game in terms of legality up close and melee counter punch. Calgar has more attacks, hit's harder, hits essentially every time (2+ re-rollable versus flat 3+) and is on similar levels of overall durability depending on what hits him. I think Iron boy is comparable for sure and overall in the same ballpark (albeit less strong IMO), but he's not the fighter boss that Calgar is.
. Not necessarily hard to do for Marines, but it complicates things if you also want to bring in say a Leviathan.
The pred shouldnt cost more than 140-150 pts.
