Rogerio134134 wrote: Thoughts on inceptors?? Really think my list lacks something that can attack then enemy in the backfield and cause problems.
Thinking of putting in a squad of 4 will bolters and a squad of 3 plasmas into my army and dropping them in with my smash captain turn 2 and just causing havoc in the backfield.
Inceptors are solid with the new codex. I probably won't bother with the plasma at this point and would just stick with bolters.
Plasma is too expensive and that makes it a trap choice, on top of the random shots too. A solid 6 shots is good. And of course, being W3 makes them that much tougher.
The only problem is making room. I like the Bolter version but I can't fit them ANYWHERE in any list I make.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?
Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.
The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.
/rant
You actually understand the state of IFs. Seeing beyond the "IF super doctrine was OP, you can't complaint" is a rare sight.
IF Incepters, Indominus Crusade Detachment, Greyshields WLT, Add Crimson Fist CT for a turn, for double exploding 6s, then Bolter drill for another.
That's alot of dakka.
Kind of highlights the Imperial Fist supplement issues even further. To get these combos you need to combine a ton of rules from 3 books, which are both CP intensive and require pregame commitment.
Then you need to combine all these things together in an army that telegraphs the crap out of it, which is great for providing counterplay, and something I'd normally be championing...if the resulting effect wasn't just BOLTSTOOOOORM (cue tiny warcraft marrowgar pet).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?
Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.
The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.
/rant
You actually understand the state of IFs. Seeing beyond the "IF super doctrine was OP, you can't complaint" is a rare sight.
IF Incepters, Indominus Crusade Detachment, Greyshields WLT, Add Crimson Fist CT for a turn, for double exploding 6s, then Bolter drill for another.
That's alot of dakka.
Kind of highlights the Imperial Fist supplement issues even further. To get these combos you need to combine a ton of rules from 3 books, which are both CP intensive and require pregame commitment.
Then you need to combine all these things together in an army that telegraphs the crap out of it, which is great for providing counterplay, and something I'd normally be championing...if the resulting effect wasn't just BOLTSTOOOOORM (cue tiny warcraft marrowgar pet).
Wow its almost like playing this game requires a modicum of mental effort or something?
Think from now on I will be running my crimson fists as Imperial fist successors to get a better chapter tactic, thing that I don't like is I don't get to use Pedro Kantor anymore but I think the ignore cover is worth it.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Think from now on I will be running my crimson fists as Imperial fist successors to get a better chapter tactic, thing that I don't like is I don't get to use Pedro Kantor anymore but I think the ignore cover is worth it.
Run Pedro as a generic dude. The model is good enough after all. Run him as though he's using Primarchs Wrath if necessary.
Yeah I converted him into a Primaris body so I'll be using him still. Crimson fists just don't seem to do the business, the recent tournament really showed me that I need to step it up a notch in competitive games.
godardc wrote:Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so...
I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?
p5freak wrote:What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.
Champions got a boost in the new codex. I was looking at the rules in battlescribe, and they are out of date (at least my version when I checked) They have 4A base, plus a bunch of new rules.
I’ve had my eye on them to experiment with. First strike, full to hit/wound re-rolls vs. characters, 3/6” heroic intervention. MC sword and a 5++ for 47 points. Seems a nice little blender. Obviously, ALL they do is fight. They don’t add auras, there is no synergy to leverage. Competitive 40k is all about the synergies. The champion adds force, when you want to be multiplying. For a low cost HQ to fill a slot, he can work, but you are probably better off with a techmarine, or a bare-bones captain/LT.
But once you take a step away from competitive army building...
He has the same WS/A as a captain, so hits pretty well. Locked into the sword, which is not the best. But with full native re-rolls vs. characters, that’s mitigated quite a bit. He has a bunch of rules to help him get into combat, and get his swings in. Nice plus there. I think he should be able to pull his weight. He is not that expensive, so if you can get him into CC, he should make his points back. He’s a very characterful cool looking guy. I think the new book made him viable, if a little shy of competitive.
(Of course, Ultramarines get the Chapter Champion, which takes this guy up to 11. But still is probably a pass for competitive lists. Build and primed one myself, waiting for paint)
Also good for filling out an elite slot for a brigade for not too many points. I'm thinking about swapping my 2-man company vets out for a company champ because he's easier to hide against indirect fire for only a few points more.
For Raven Guard, the anti-character abilities synergize with the chapter doctrines. Shadowstep and/or Infiltrators strat makes it possible to get him in reach of enemy characters. With the burning blade and RG bonus, he can wound character knights on a rerollable 4.
Well, I have built a company champion that should be able to comfortably kill most characters. Here is what I have on him.
Warlord trait : Champion of Humanity
Relic : The Burning Blade
Have a librarian near, to buff him with Might of Heroes
Use the custom chapter tactic Whirlwind of Rage, for extra hits on a 6.
Now you have a company champion at S8, A7, T5 on the first round of a fight phase, which he will fight first in, against characters anyways. I have test rolled this so many times. Hits on an average of 8-9 times. He will hit on 2s with rerolls, and wound on 3s with rerolls on toughness 8, and wounding on 2s with rerolls against T7 or lower. That is a 47 point beast on the field.
Quick question. Got a second unit of eliminators to build. Already have one unit with the sniper rifles and was wondering to do the 2nd squad with them or give them las fusils? Usually play a tai force with mainly battle suits and as many drones as possible or Death guard. I tend to only use Primaris models and the only other anti armour I have is a las cannon las talon repulsor and an Executioner with the big cannon not the macro Plasma Incinerator. And Guilliman!
godardc wrote:Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so...
I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?
p5freak wrote:What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.
Champions got a boost in the new codex. I was looking at the rules in battlescribe, and they are out of date (at least my version when I checked) They have 4A base, plus a bunch of new rules.
I’ve had my eye on them to experiment with. First strike, full to hit/wound re-rolls vs. characters, 3/6” heroic intervention. MC sword and a 5++ for 47 points. Seems a nice little blender. Obviously, ALL they do is fight. They don’t add auras, there is no synergy to leverage. Competitive 40k is all about the synergies. The champion adds force, when you want to be multiplying. For a low cost HQ to fill a slot, he can work, but you are probably better off with a techmarine, or a bare-bones captain/LT.
But once you take a step away from competitive army building...
He has the same WS/A as a captain, so hits pretty well. Locked into the sword, which is not the best. But with full native re-rolls vs. characters, that’s mitigated quite a bit. He has a bunch of rules to help him get into combat, and get his swings in. Nice plus there. I think he should be able to pull his weight. He is not that expensive, so if you can get him into CC, he should make his points back. He’s a very characterful cool looking guy. I think the new book made him viable, if a little shy of competitive.
(Of course, Ultramarines get the Chapter Champion, which takes this guy up to 11. But still is probably a pass for competitive lists. Build and primed one myself, waiting for paint)
Also good for filling out an elite slot for a brigade for not too many points. I'm thinking about swapping my 2-man company vets out for a company champ because he's easier to hide against indirect fire for only a few points more.
For Raven Guard, the anti-character abilities synergize with the chapter doctrines. Shadowstep and/or Infiltrators strat makes it possible to get him in reach of enemy characters. With the burning blade and RG bonus, he can wound character knights on a rerollable 4.
Well, I have built a company champion that should be able to comfortably kill most characters. Here is what I have on him.
Warlord trait : Champion of Humanity
Relic : The Burning Blade
Have a librarian near, to buff him with Might of Heroes
Use the custom chapter tactic Whirlwind of Rage, for extra hits on a 6.
Now you have a company champion at S8, A7, T5 on the first round of a fight phase, which he will fight first in, against characters anyways. I have test rolled this so many times. Hits on an average of 8-9 times. He will hit on 2s with rerolls, and wound on 3s with rerolls on toughness 8, and wounding on 2s with rerolls against T7 or lower. That is a 47 point beast on the field.
I'd rather just use Teeth of Terra instead of Burning Blade. The 3 extra attacks is better than the strength bonus against a majority of targets.
I'd rather just use Teeth of Terra instead of Burning Blade. The 3 extra attacks is better than the strength bonus against a majority of targets.
He’s working with a Company Champion, they don’t have the options for chainswords.
I'm blind. My bad, G.
If that's the case, don't they get a Relic power sword that's D3 with F&F? That's the threshold that kills Custodes or Bullgryns orat least kills Knights faster.
I have been preoccupied with my other armies, haven't been following marines to much.
How did the latest updates affect the marine armies? Is IH still the top dog?
Ironhand took a big hit recently, it is no longer the "auto-win" choice. But I think it is still strong, just need to adapt instead of keeping with the old Repuslor - Leviathan built.
I think Ironhand infantry heavy army will still pack some serious punch. For example, one good combo maybe taking Ferrios, Chief Apothercary, a cheap Chapter Master, some Gravcannon Devastators in Droppod, and massed Intercessors (some with stalker bolt rifles, some with auto bolt rifles). Turn 1, drop in the Grav Devastators near the character blobs, pop the stratgem "grav amplification" for reroll wounds and dmg and "mercy is weak" to double the wounds on What you will get is 20 shots, S5 AP-4, D3 dmg against heavy targets, hit on re-rollable 2s, wound most things at minimum rerollable 5+ but the meat is any is two wounds. So against IK it will dealt around 15 wounds before its inv save, so it is gonna to eat around 19 dmg on average even the IK pops 4++ inv save, which is not too shabby.
On defensive side, if you drop the squad into cover, they get 2+/5++/5+++, so any dmg 1 weapon will need at least 12 wounds inflicted to kill the 5 men squad. Against the screening Intercessors, it need much more, and actually the threat of 2 dmg weapons against intercessors are much lowered by the 5+++.
I have been preoccupied with my other armies, haven't been following marines to much.
How did the latest updates affect the marine armies? Is IH still the top dog?
Hard to tell, I haven't had a chance to play much lately. I did play a few games when the codex first came out where I switched through the doctrines like I thought GW intended. It was still strong. The min max lists spamming heavy weapons are weaker than before, but a lot of SM chapters (like WS) aren't really affected that much.
Fists definitely took a hit losing the super doctrine turn 2 but I have moved to a mainly bolter heavy army with 30 intercessors now to maximize on exploding sixes and tactical doctrine. A squad of 10 Intercessors with the rapid fire strat (making bolt rifles rapid fire 2) with exploding sixes in re roll aura range at ap 2 is no joke!
I am tempted to start including some incursors in my army as well now due to their low points cost and the fact that they have plenty of attacks in close combat, they will definitely benefit from the combat doctrine.
So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?
A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?
A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have
Are Repulsor Executioners good even for a RG successor? The lists I've seen are mostly infantry centric with the exception of Invictors.
Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.
Why Marksmen? +3" doesn't seem like a huge deal to me unless it's for flamer and melta weapons and given that RG/RG successors love Phobos units with their forward deploying ability, it would probably let them get into range of whatever they want fairly easily. My thought is going for Stealthy + Master Artisans instead, Eliminators and Phobos Captains/Lieutenants would definitely appreciate the free reroll to hit and wound and even a Repulsor Executioner with a Heavy Laser Destroyer probably wouldn't mind a full reroll for one of its 4 shots either.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?
A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have
Are Repulsor Executioners good even for a RG successor? The lists I've seen are mostly infantry centric with the exception of Invictors.
Executioners are great. I wouldn't bring only one and bunch of infantry though. You would need threat saturation in your list to help get the most out of it.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?
A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have
Are Repulsor Executioners good even for a RG successor? The lists I've seen are mostly infantry centric with the exception of Invictors.
Executioners are great. I wouldn't bring only one and bunch of infantry though. You would need threat saturation in your list to help get the most out of it.
Yeah if I went that route I'd probably bring 2 though, RG in general seem to favor infantry heavy lists so 2 of those plus 2 Invictors would likely be the extent of vehicles I would bring. However, if I didn't want to invest in a Repulsor Executioner, would replacing the bolt sniper rifles on 2 units of Eliminators with las fusils comboed with Master Artisans plus a full squad of deep striking Hellblasters (or Plasma Inceptors? Not sure which people think are better these days) be a viable alternative for ranged anti armor? Haven't heard a lot of buzz about las fusils in general but they seem useful in a pinch especially with Master Artisan rerolls. Figured I would have character sniping covered enough with 1 bolt sniper Eliminator squad, a Phobos Captain with Marksman Honors and Korvidari Bolts, and a Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?
A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have
Are Repulsor Executioners good even for a RG successor? The lists I've seen are mostly infantry centric with the exception of Invictors.
Executioners are great. I wouldn't bring only one and bunch of infantry though. You would need threat saturation in your list to help get the most out of it.
Yeah if I went that route I'd probably bring 2 though, RG in general seem to favor infantry heavy lists so 2 of those plus 2 Invictors would likely be the extent of vehicles I would bring. However, if I didn't want to invest in a Repulsor Executioner, would replacing the bolt sniper rifles on 2 units of Eliminators with las fusils comboed with Master Artisans plus a full squad of deep striking Hellblasters (or Plasma Inceptors? Not sure which people think are better these days) be a viable alternative for ranged anti armor? Haven't heard a lot of buzz about las fusils in general but they seem useful in a pinch especially with Master Artisan rerolls. Figured I would have character sniping covered enough with 1 bolt sniper Eliminator squad, a Phobos Captain with Marksman Honors and Korvidari Bolts, and a Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris.
I haven't tried las talon eliminators myself. They look ok on paper. Definitely a unit I would proxy first before buying. However I have found bolt sniper eliminators are actually rather decent at shooting monsters and vehicles with master artisans and the sergeant guiding their shots.
As for inceptors, I wouldn't take plasma with the new codex.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.
Why Marksmen? +3" doesn't seem like a huge deal to me unless it's for flamer and melta weapons and given that RG/RG successors love Phobos units with their forward deploying ability, it would probably let them get into range of whatever they want fairly easily. My thought is going for Stealthy + Master Artisans instead, Eliminators and Phobos Captains/Lieutenants would definitely appreciate the free reroll to hit and wound and even a Repulsor Executioner with a Heavy Laser Destroyer probably wouldn't mind a full reroll for one of its 4 shots either.
That extra three inches does a lot. When you wish you were an extra three inches closer so you can more successfully make a charge, apply the same logic to range weapons. It doesn't apply much to Tactical Marines, but everyone else loves it. Centurions with an even bigger threat range? Assault Bolt Intercessors throwing shots out from even further? Flamers actually being able to shoot from Deep Strike? Not to mention the deployment flexibility it gives for the whole army basically. Need to really squeeze into a corner for that Thunderfire? Sure no problem.
We have rerolls from HQ units and Dreads (for one CP a turn). All of our stuff is based around getting rerolls. Master Artisans adds too much redundancy to actually be effective, hence why people started being able to counter any successor Chapter trying to make use of it, and I pointed that out a while ago.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.
Why Marksmen? +3" doesn't seem like a huge deal to me unless it's for flamer and melta weapons and given that RG/RG successors love Phobos units with their forward deploying ability, it would probably let them get into range of whatever they want fairly easily. My thought is going for Stealthy + Master Artisans instead, Eliminators and Phobos Captains/Lieutenants would definitely appreciate the free reroll to hit and wound and even a Repulsor Executioner with a Heavy Laser Destroyer probably wouldn't mind a full reroll for one of its 4 shots either.
That extra three inches does a lot. When you wish you were an extra three inches closer so you can more successfully make a charge, apply the same logic to range weapons. It doesn't apply much to Tactical Marines, but everyone else loves it. Centurions with an even bigger threat range? Assault Bolt Intercessors throwing shots out from even further? Flamers actually being able to shoot from Deep Strike? Not to mention the deployment flexibility it gives for the whole army basically. Need to really squeeze into a corner for that Thunderfire? Sure no problem.
We have rerolls from HQ units and Dreads (for one CP a turn). All of our stuff is based around getting rerolls. Master Artisans adds too much redundancy to actually be effective, hence why people started being able to counter any successor Chapter trying to make use of it, and I pointed that out a while ago.
I suppose, but 3" is a way bigger difference for charges than for weapon ranges generally IMO since if you're forward deploying with Phobos units/master of ambushing/deep striking I don't think there are many units that are going to be out of range for most of your units. I can see it being helpful but in the case where your army is likely to be spread out and most units will be out of range of a captain/lieutenant's auras, I can see master artisans being useful. Both would probably require testing though.
The one I was waffling on more for a while there was Stealthy. Sure, the cover is easily the best when it works, but GW was piling on the ways to ignore cover and render your trait worthless. But with the nerf to IF armies that ignore cover will presumably be less common again.
On the subject of inceptors, I've found bringing a unit of six bolter dudes down turn 2 with the salamander +1 to wound strat to be devastating to just about anything they look at.
Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:
x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred
The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.
bort wrote:The one I was waffling on more for a while there was Stealthy. Sure, the cover is easily the best when it works, but GW was piling on the ways to ignore cover and render your trait worthless. But with the nerf to IF armies that ignore cover will presumably be less common again.
I have moved away from taking stealthy myself. The tables I typically play on have enough terrain that my infantry can usually get cover without much issue. It is still helpful for vehicles but I have found long range marksmen and master artisan are my go to setup.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.
Why Marksmen? +3" doesn't seem like a huge deal to me unless it's for flamer and melta weapons and given that RG/RG successors love Phobos units with their forward deploying ability, it would probably let them get into range of whatever they want fairly easily. My thought is going for Stealthy + Master Artisans instead, Eliminators and Phobos Captains/Lieutenants would definitely appreciate the free reroll to hit and wound and even a Repulsor Executioner with a Heavy Laser Destroyer probably wouldn't mind a full reroll for one of its 4 shots either.
That extra three inches does a lot. When you wish you were an extra three inches closer so you can more successfully make a charge, apply the same logic to range weapons. It doesn't apply much to Tactical Marines, but everyone else loves it. Centurions with an even bigger threat range? Assault Bolt Intercessors throwing shots out from even further? Flamers actually being able to shoot from Deep Strike? Not to mention the deployment flexibility it gives for the whole army basically. Need to really squeeze into a corner for that Thunderfire? Sure no problem.
We have rerolls from HQ units and Dreads (for one CP a turn). All of our stuff is based around getting rerolls. Master Artisans adds too much redundancy to actually be effective, hence why people started being able to counter any successor Chapter trying to make use of it, and I pointed that out a while ago.
I suppose, but 3" is a way bigger difference for charges than for weapon ranges generally IMO since if you're forward deploying with Phobos units/master of ambushing/deep striking I don't think there are many units that are going to be out of range for most of your units. I can see it being helpful but in the case where your army is likely to be spread out and most units will be out of range of a captain/lieutenant's auras, I can see master artisans being useful. Both would probably require testing though.
Master Artisan is really good. It is better in MSU lists on things like whirlwinds and eliminators. It is also great on captains that are taking weapons with -1 to hit like thunder hammers. I have rolled lots of 2s in 8th so I know how helpful the extra reroll on them is. However it is very underwhelming on 10 man squads of intercessors or repulsor tanks. The bonus range works best on short and mid range weapons. For my RG, I have found running them as successors with master artisan and long range marksmen is best if I am deep striking assault centurions. I have found I get more work out of those guys with the 12 flamethrowers under tactical doctrine than I do a lot of times with the drills. It also gives my centurions a mean over watch. Several of my opponents have learned that the hard way. The usefulness of the successor traits is very list dependent in my experience.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:
x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred
The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.
You can't take master of the tri fold path if a named character is your warlord. Also it doesn't work like hero of the chapter, it only gives a non named warlord character a second trait. Also you can't take the wrist mounded grenade launcher unless you take a powerfist.
Why echo of the ravenspire? If you use it you don't get Issodon's auras for a whole turn.
I was messing around with a Issodon bomb list before the local store closed due to COVID 19 and was having lots of success with it. I was running grav devs and 2 tac squads though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:
x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred
The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.
You can't take master of the tri fold path if a named character is your warlord. Also it doesn't work like hero of the chapter, it only gives a non named warlord character a second trait. Also you can't take the wrist mounded grenade launcher unless you take a powerfist.
Why echo of the ravenspire? If you use it you don't get Issodon's auras for a whole turn.
I was messing around with a Issodon bomb list before the local store closed due to COVID 19 and was having lots of success with it. I was running grav devs and 2 tac squads though.
For the wrist grenade launcher, that was just something Battlescribe had. I hadn't noticed the option and was more questioning it, which I forgot to put in the original post.
Hmm, I don't recall that caveat on Master of the Tri-Fold Path. If that's the case, Lias just won't be the Warlord and I can end up giving the Terminator a second Warlord Trait instead, which isn't the worst idea. HOWEVER, the idea behind Lias having it is that after the initial drop and things are low on his end, the now unsupported Stalkers will LOVE a Chapter Master reroll. He says "bye, Felicia" to the Sternguard and then for the last phase of the game things get cleaned up. Any remaining Sternguard will just get the Captain benefit, if that.
So if that's the case, Terminator Captain will be the regular Warlord with Iron Resolve (nice little combo there) and Master of the Tri-Fold should be Swift and Deadly. Biker Captain then gets Imperium's Sword, which is evil enough with Teeth of Terra.
Thoughts on a primaris list running multiple repulsors? I have a crimson fist army with 2 Repulsors and an Executioner but only the executioner gets on the table (It is usually fantastic) and i love to run another one and back them up with a solid wall of Intercessors and Aggressors.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:
x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred
The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.
I really like your list ! Could you explain it a little bit ? Do you have any battle report ? And why so many stalkers ?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:
x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred
The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.
I really like your list ! Could you explain it a little bit ? Do you have any battle report ? And why so many stalkers ?
I did a small explanation in there, and I fixed how the Warlord Traits would go in a post not far from it as I kinda fethed up on how Master of the Trifold Path works. Stalkers are for anti-tank and anything flying, which is ALWAYS going to be meta, and that's why I feel they're more important than basic Lascannons or anything like that. When it comes to Knights, I'm relying basically on the Super Doctrine. They're the main dangerous vehicle that's not flying, and if you want them to do anything if value you gotta invest in the CP to make them...characters!
I might have a small battle report as, if I lose, I heavily take down notes.
The idea is to have the Centurions (ab)use Devout Push in comjuction with the Jump Chaplain's litany to zoom 6"+6"+D6"+4" across the board on turn 1, since you can use Devout Push in both your own and the opponent's turn. With plenty of chaff clearing units for turn 1 I should be in a decent position to shove multiple assault threats down the opponent's throat turn 2. The Apothecary with the Aurillian Shroud and Grimaldus with his 5++ litany makes sure the Assault Centurions are tough as nails.
Gets two Litanies for the price of one, saving the CP for a Master of Sanctity. If I'm gonna be running a Chaplain for the 5++ anyway (which I totally am) I might as well bring Grimaldus to get an extra Deny as well as the additional Litany.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Gets two Litanies for the price of one, saving the CP for a Master of Sanctity. If I'm gonna be running a Chaplain for the 5++ anyway (which I totally am) I might as well bring Grimaldus to get an extra Deny as well as the additional Litany.
A Brigade is being ran, so CP shouldn't be that much an issue. Hell my Raptors use 6 before the game even starts (well actually 8 with Stranglehold). You'd be able to get a Relic that helps a bit more, and keep him a bit cheaper.
Wouldn't it be better to make the Phobos Captain the chapter master since he has the bonus range on his auras?
As far as relics go you could give the master of sanctity the ancient breviary and then give the jump chaplain something else. The relic crozius maybe?
As far as the extra pts goes you could upgrade the intercessor sergeant's weapons. Maybe take a thunder hammer.
So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
Swampmist wrote: So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
You'd probably be just better off going with a Smashplain or Smash Captain. Gk have exactly the correct tools to kill Terminators with SS, like Smites and easily done AP-1, so those extra wounds on the Terminators won't defeat the defense of basic Character protection. On top of that, Terminators are going to have a much harder time getting into melee.
Swampmist wrote: So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
You'd probably be just better off going with a Smashplain or Smash Captain. Gk have exactly the correct tools to kill Terminators with SS, like Smites and easily done AP-1, so those extra wounds on the Terminators won't defeat the defense of basic Character protection. On top of that, Terminators are going to have a much harder time getting into melee.
Oh, sorry. I was not talking about using them as a counter to GK, but rather noting that I want to re-evaluate them now that GK Paladins have shown how mathematically excellent 2+\4++ (or 3++ in the case of my suggestion) Transhuman can be.
Swampmist wrote: So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
You'd probably be just better off going with a Smashplain or Smash Captain. Gk have exactly the correct tools to kill Terminators with SS, like Smites and easily done AP-1, so those extra wounds on the Terminators won't defeat the defense of basic Character protection. On top of that, Terminators are going to have a much harder time getting into melee.
Oh, sorry. I was not talking about using them as a counter to GK, but rather noting that I want to re-evaluate them now that GK Paladins have shown how mathematically excellent 2+\4++ (or 3++ in the case of my suggestion) Transhuman can be.
Oh, I should learn how to read apparently.
My issue is they won't do anything until T2 minimum probably. Aggressors and Centurions won't have an Invul but they'll contribute T1. Plus there's a bunch of Psyker powers to help to durability if you really need it.
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I suppose, but 3" is a way bigger difference for charges than for weapon ranges generally IMO since if you're forward deploying with Phobos units/master of ambushing/deep striking I don't think there are many units that are going to be out of range for most of your units. I can see it being helpful but in the case where your army is likely to be spread out and most units will be out of range of a captain/lieutenant's auras, I can see master artisans being useful. Both would probably require testing though.
Master Artisan is really good. It is better in MSU lists on things like whirlwinds and eliminators. It is also great on captains that are taking weapons with -1 to hit like thunder hammers. I have rolled lots of 2s in 8th so I know how helpful the extra reroll on them is. However it is very underwhelming on 10 man squads of intercessors or repulsor tanks. The bonus range works best on short and mid range weapons. For my RG, I have found running them as successors with master artisan and long range marksmen is best if I am deep striking assault centurions. I have found I get more work out of those guys with the 12 flamethrowers under tactical doctrine than I do a lot of times with the drills. It also gives my centurions a mean over watch. Several of my opponents have learned that the hard way. The usefulness of the successor traits is very list dependent in my experience.
That's a big reason I like Master Artisans on them, Eliminators love the free rerolls, as do the Phobos Captain and Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris. Going Primaris only, I'm not gonna be using Centurions or Whirlwinds but I am considering a Repulsor Executioner to go with two Invictors so the Invictors are not taking ALL the anti-tank fire before they get to do anything. And I feel like the Repulsor Executioner can benefit from Master Artisans since you can use the rerolls on one of the 4 Heavy Laser Destroyer shots. And being a tanky vehicle with only a 3+, it definitely benefits from Stealthy. Here's a sample list I was thinking about:
Librarian in Phobos Armour [5 PL, -1CP, 101pts]: 2) Enveloping Darkness, 3) Mind Raid, 4) Shadowstep, Camo cloak, Force sword, Stratagem: Chief Librarian
Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, -2CP, 77pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate, Benediction of Fury, Litany of Hate, Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Master of Sanctity
Swampmist wrote: So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
You'd probably be just better off going with a Smashplain or Smash Captain. Gk have exactly the correct tools to kill Terminators with SS, like Smites and easily done AP-1, so those extra wounds on the Terminators won't defeat the defense of basic Character protection. On top of that, Terminators are going to have a much harder time getting into melee.
Oh, sorry. I was not talking about using them as a counter to GK, but rather noting that I want to re-evaluate them now that GK Paladins have shown how mathematically excellent 2+\4++ (or 3++ in the case of my suggestion) Transhuman can be.
Oh, I should learn how to read apparently.
My issue is they won't do anything until T2 minimum probably. Aggressors and Centurions won't have an Invul but they'll contribute T1. Plus there's a bunch of Psyker powers to help to durability if you really need it.
Fair points. I don't think Terminators are correct in raven guard or their successors, since you can so easily deliver better options. I do however think that its worth evaluating the terminators in melee-focused builds or in salamanders as a bodyguard unit. The math on what it takes to efficiently kill 3++ 2 wound models through transhuman is honestly kinda baffling. Centurions have double the woundcount, but the lack of invuln means that sufficient AP is enough to still kill them quite quickly. Also, for those chapters that cannot simply deepstrike literally any infantry unit in the codex, the native deepstrike on the terminators does mean they will more reliably get to their target. I've played around with centurions outside of RG (and to a lesser extent WS), and their range bands can absolutely be played around in those scenarios, leaving them doing no more turn 1-2 than terminators do.
I am not saying the terminators are 100% correct as a note. But doing the math on what can efficiently kill paladins makes it very clear that the answer is "most things fail to do so", and I believe TH\SS terminators sit at a similar, and potentially effective, durability point.
I'd like a case for my termies, but I dunno...Marine termies have 2 important flaws compared to Paladins:
1. The jump to 3 wounds protects against being single shotted by a lot of weaponry out there. I can't see using termies without something also supplying a fnp roll to compensate.
2. Paladins can shoot and be too dangerous to ignore. TH/SS termies can be avoided and regular termies aren't near as threatening nor survivable.
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I suppose, but 3" is a way bigger difference for charges than for weapon ranges generally IMO since if you're forward deploying with Phobos units/master of ambushing/deep striking I don't think there are many units that are going to be out of range for most of your units. I can see it being helpful but in the case where your army is likely to be spread out and most units will be out of range of a captain/lieutenant's auras, I can see master artisans being useful. Both would probably require testing though.
Master Artisan is really good. It is better in MSU lists on things like whirlwinds and eliminators. It is also great on captains that are taking weapons with -1 to hit like thunder hammers. I have rolled lots of 2s in 8th so I know how helpful the extra reroll on them is. However it is very underwhelming on 10 man squads of intercessors or repulsor tanks. The bonus range works best on short and mid range weapons. For my RG, I have found running them as successors with master artisan and long range marksmen is best if I am deep striking assault centurions. I have found I get more work out of those guys with the 12 flamethrowers under tactical doctrine than I do a lot of times with the drills. It also gives my centurions a mean over watch. Several of my opponents have learned that the hard way. The usefulness of the successor traits is very list dependent in my experience.
That's a big reason I like Master Artisans on them, Eliminators love the free rerolls, as do the Phobos Captain and Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris. Going Primaris only, I'm not gonna be using Centurions or Whirlwinds but I am considering a Repulsor Executioner to go with two Invictors so the Invictors are not taking ALL the anti-tank fire before they get to do anything. And I feel like the Repulsor Executioner can benefit from Master Artisans since you can use the rerolls on one of the 4 Heavy Laser Destroyer shots. And being a tanky vehicle with only a 3+, it definitely benefits from Stealthy. Here's a sample list I was thinking about:
Librarian in Phobos Armour [5 PL, -1CP, 101pts]: 2) Enveloping Darkness, 3) Mind Raid, 4) Shadowstep, Camo cloak, Force sword, Stratagem: Chief Librarian
Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, -2CP, 77pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate, Benediction of Fury, Litany of Hate, Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Master of Sanctity
Everything will benefit from master artisans, but it is just more efficient in the MSU set up.
As far as your list goes, you can't take powers from both disciplines with the master librarian unless you also take the High Scholar of the Librarius warlord trait. Also I have haven't had much success with haywire mines. I personally would drop them for more bodies or weapon upgrades. And always take the free chainsword on the intercessor sergeant. Other than that it looks good for a pure primaris list.
That's a big reason I like Master Artisans on them, Eliminators love the free rerolls, as do the Phobos Captain and Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris. Going Primaris only, I'm not gonna be using Centurions or Whirlwinds but I am considering a Repulsor Executioner to go with two Invictors so the Invictors are not taking ALL the anti-tank fire before they get to do anything. And I feel like the Repulsor Executioner can benefit from Master Artisans since you can use the rerolls on one of the 4 Heavy Laser Destroyer shots. And being a tanky vehicle with only a 3+, it definitely benefits from Stealthy. Here's a sample list I was thinking about:
Librarian in Phobos Armour [5 PL, -1CP, 101pts]: 2) Enveloping Darkness, 3) Mind Raid, 4) Shadowstep, Camo cloak, Force sword, Stratagem: Chief Librarian
Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, -2CP, 77pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate, Benediction of Fury, Litany of Hate, Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Master of Sanctity
Everything will benefit from master artisans, but it is just more efficient in the MSU set up.
As far as your list goes, you can't take powers from both disciplines with the master librarian unless you also take the High Scholar of the Librarius warlord trait. Also I have haven't had much success with haywire mines. I personally would drop them for more bodies or weapon upgrades. And always take the free chainsword on the intercessor sergeant. Other than that it looks good for a pure primaris list.
Good point, thanks! Instead of burning a WL trait though, I can use the CP to pick up the Tome of Malcador instead of making him a Chief Librarian and that should let me use Mind Raid in addition to the other Umbramancy spells. And the reasoning behind the haywire mines is to deploy the Incursors onto midfield objectives, mine them, and then use A Deadly Prize at the end of my turn to booby trap those objectives to make it difficult for my opponent to take them without taking at least 2d3 mortal wounds trying to do it. Maybe it doesn't work quite as well in practice, but at least it seems like a lot of fun and can definitely mess with your opponent's strategy to make them think twice before trying to take them.
I have tried the objective booby trapping - it is fun, but not as effective as it seems. First you can't drop all the mines in the same turn (boo hiss!), then you still need your squad to be in harms way for A Deadly Prize to work. Still, it's quite fun to do but it depends a lot on the mission being played and who you are playing against.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you can't have both a Chapter Relic and Special Issue Wargear in a Successor army. If so, you should chose which to take depending on what army you face.
jpwyrm wrote: I have tried the objective booby trapping - it is fun, but not as effective as it seems. First you can't drop all the mines in the same turn (boo hiss!), then you still need your squad to be in harms way for A Deadly Prize to work. Still, it's quite fun to do but it depends a lot on the mission being played and who you are playing against.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you can't have both a Chapter Relic and Special Issue Wargear in a Successor army. If so, you should chose which to take depending on what army you face.
Where did it say you can only lay down one mine per turn? I read it as long as a single model in the army has a mine they can deploy it. Also I don't think they need to be in harm's way necessarily since they'll be deployed right on the midfield objective and then you use the strat at the end of the turn to booby trap it more. And also I believe you can have both a chapter relic and special issue wargear but you need to use Token of Brotherhood to unlock the chapter relic as Raven Guard successors and then you can use the extra relics strat to buy special issue wargear/codex relics.
The rule is "In your Movement phase, one model from your army with a haywire mine that has not been primed can prime it. "
The way I read it, it's one model that can prime the mine, so one per turn. Otherwise it would say "any model ..."
I could be wrong though.
What I meant by in harms way is in order to use A Deadly Prize, you need to be within 3" of the objective. The Haywire mine is better in this aspect because you can lay it down anywhere that the model who has it moved this turn, so you could start on the objective, move and advance to hide your unit and drop the mine on the objective. This would be very good too if you can indeed lay down more than one mine per turn.
I reread the rules for Relics and Special Issue Wargear and you are right, we can take both Ex-Tenebris and Korvidari Bolts - great news!
Quick question. With Intercessors, Infiltrators and Incursors are 5 or 10 man units better? I had gone for 5man units to fill out battalions and give more options originally but the Intercessor starts favour larger units and the area denial footprint of the infiltrators plus the extra attacks (from more chances to role 6s to hit) with more models with incursors suggests bigger units. Was wondering what the general consensus might be
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question. With Intercessors, Infiltrators and Incursors are 5 or 10 man units better? I had gone for 5man units to fill out battalions and give more options originally but the Intercessor starts favour larger units and the area denial footprint of the infiltrators plus the extra attacks (from more chances to role 6s to hit) with more models with incursors suggests bigger units. Was wondering what the general consensus might be
Generally multiple small units are better.
However:
Buffs/strats and the like do get more milage from larger units. Do they give you enough of a boost to counteract the advantages of a MSU build? I think “generally not” is the consensus. Small units fill out detachments better, are more flexible, free sarge, etc.
Ask yourself what else you could use the points boosting the squad to 10 men, or what else you could spend the CP on.
I don’t think you are overly crippling your list to include a full squad or two to leverage some of the nice things, but it’s probably not the most efficient way to run. Probably a lot of list/chapter/builds could take good advantage of them.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question. With Intercessors, Infiltrators and Incursors are 5 or 10 man units better? I had gone for 5man units to fill out battalions and give more options originally but the Intercessor starts favour larger units and the area denial footprint of the infiltrators plus the extra attacks (from more chances to role 6s to hit) with more models with incursors suggests bigger units. Was wondering what the general consensus might be
Generally multiple small units are better.
However:
Buffs/strats and the like do get more milage from larger units. Do they give you enough of a boost to counteract the advantages of a MSU build? I think “generally not” is the consensus. Small units fill out detachments better, are more flexible, free sarge, etc.
Ask yourself what else you could use the points boosting the squad to 10 men, or what else you could spend the CP on.
I don’t think you are overly crippling your list to include a full squad or two to leverage some of the nice things, but it’s probably not the most efficient way to run. Probably a lot of list/chapter/builds could take good advantage of them.
With Infiltrators you want smaller units. The area denial needs to be used in multiple areas rather than one fell swoop of "nope you can't go here in this big area". Intercessors you can get away with bigger units as long as you're willing to commit to multiple uses of those Strats they get.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also if you plan to do the Crusade or whatever specialist Detachment. That thing is bonkers broken honestly.
Is that one of the Vigilus detachments I’ve not heard of that. I thought a few of the Vigilus stuff was in the 2.0 codex like the vet intercessors and so on
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Is that one of the Vigilus detachments I’ve not heard of that. I thought a few of the Vigilus stuff was in the 2.0 codex like the vet intercessors and so on
Yeah it is. Basically what it does is it gives a Warlord Trait to your dude to give all your Intercessors an extra Chapter Tactic just because. It's downright broken to be honest. Ever try to kill an Intercessor that has cover out in the open AND has a 6+++? Ever try to tie up Intercessors that fall back + shoot, and also they get exploding Bolt weapons?
It REALLY sucks, it really does. I'm still trying to perfect a list because there's a ton you can do, not to mention all the blasted Supplements adding so much that you gotta wonder what should the base Intercessor should BE.
I found salamanders a bit underwhelming if you run them to take advantage of their doctrine but they do have some great strats so successors could be strong maybe but I'd be pleasantly surprised if they are top 3.
Yeah, I like their Psy Powers, Strats and Warlord Traits. I like Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics a lot as it fits my style, but the rest of their stuff is blah.......same goes for Raven Guard.
Iron Fists are really the only match for my style next to Salamanders, but I am playing a successor chapter which eliminates Iron Father.
Is there merrit into bringing 1-2 Invictor Warsuits into a Imperial Fists list? I know bringing dreads is probably better? BUT starting outside my deployment + all the benefits of the Imperial Fists i could do some nasty damage to a some stuff and they make decent Distraction Carnifexs.
Rahdok wrote: Is there merrit into bringing 1-2 Invictor Warsuits into a Imperial Fists list? I know bringing dreads is probably better? BUT starting outside my deployment + all the benefits of the Imperial Fists i could do some nasty damage to a some stuff and they make decent Distraction Carnifexs.
Bringing regular Dreads would not be better, actually. While the Suits wouldn't get THAT much benefit from the Tactic, it gets enough benefit that you won't regret using it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also have we all mathed out Stalkers vs Hunters? I know we talked about Hunters as cheap and hitting overall but when mathed out they actually don't do a lot of damage.
From a year back I always thought the Stalker was better point for point and even passable vs ground units. But all the pro lists at the time used Hunters instead due to being cheaper. Today, I suppose if your main purpose is cheap utility blocker then the Impulsor is even better.
bort wrote: From a year back I always thought the Stalker was better point for point and even passable vs ground units. But all the pro lists at the time used Hunters instead due to being cheaper. Today, I suppose if your main purpose is cheap utility blocker then the Impulsor is even better.
I vaguely remember that. I'm trying to look at my list again before the quarantine ends to be SUPER PREPARED.
I'm also looking at Carcharodons again as a more fun list. The only real thing that they have is Tyberos, who, while a monster in combat, is absurdly slow. So we either go fluff as Raven Guard successors with Stealthy + Hungry For Battle, or White Scars successors entirely. Advance and Charge is pretty clutch, but requires units built around both shooting assault + melee, or purely melee. Assault Intercessors, Aggressors, dual Chainsword Vanguard, and Shotgun Scouts as examples. So what am I potentially missing? On the other hand, Raven Guard as usual is a TAC choice, and I could still use Tyberos to support some Centurions, taking more advantage of their shooting whilst they have a better chance to charge.
I am having a hard time deciding which Chapter I want to run as I love bits and pieces from each.
My core list is centered around one model....(ok two models!)
StormRaven Gunship and the Tor Garadon as a Captain in Gravis armor.
I worked hard on converting my Lascannon Centurions into assault Centurions, got my Chaplain Dreadnought and settled on Raven Guard only to read the FAQ/Errata..........%$@!*
If I go heavy tank and dread with my Storm Raven, Iron Hands seems best....
If I do heavy troops centered around the Bolt Rifle and gunline to support the Storm Raven then Imperial Fists looks good......
If I want lame Psychic powers and Warlord traits with the best Strategems and good Relics then Ultramarines......
If I want to play a chapter that plays opposite to everything I like then White scars is there......
If I want to play the best Pyschic powers, warlord traits, relics and rules I would go Salamanders......
Trying to fit in what I like at 1500 points with marines makes me want to cry!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Salamanders aren't even played with their core Chapter Tactic. Go with anything else, really.
Is MSU Tactical Squad with Lascannon still good? It's getting 6 Lascannon shot from 2 min Battalion reroll hits and wounds. I think it is decent unless you are facing 3 IK most with 4++.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Salamanders aren't even played with their core Chapter Tactic. Go with anything else, really.
Is MSU Tactical Squad with Lascannon still good? It's getting 6 Lascannon shot from 2 min Battalion reroll hits and wounds. I think it is decent unless you are facing 3 IK most with 4++.
It really isn't because Salamanders are stupid redundant when you want Captain and Lt. rerolls anyway. There's incredibly few units that like Master Artisans:
1. Hunters as they get reroll to wound on their weapon and didn't need the Captain anyway. Buying the HK is mandatory.
2. Min Devastator squads with the Cherub and two Lascannons.
3. Eliminators and Suppressors
Honestly that's about it where I'd want those rerolls.
So I weirdly have extra cash on hand at the moment and I was looking at making an Ultramarines army.
Bobby G is of course included but due to the virus I can't go to a store and pick up a Codex and sift through it for myself.
Does anyone have any recommendations for an all primaris based, FLUFFY Ultramarines army? An entire 2k list idea would be great.
A lot of it seems really cool - but stuff like Reivers and the Warsuits all seem to fit the White Scars/Raven Guard better than Ultramarines... but I don't know since I can't pick up the book! Any help is appreciated.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So I weirdly have extra cash on hand at the moment and I was looking at making an Ultramarines army.
Bobby G is of course included but due to the virus I can't go to a store and pick up a Codex and sift through it for myself.
Does anyone have any recommendations for an all primaris based, FLUFFY Ultramarines army? An entire 2k list idea would be great.
A lot of it seems really cool - but stuff like Reivers and the Warsuits all seem to fit the White Scars/Raven Guard better than Ultramarines... but I don't know since I can't pick up the book! Any help is appreciated.
One important thing about Ultramarines is that like the Romans they are somewhat modeled after, they used all tools and types of soldier available to them.
An Ultramarine commander would look at all units available and try to use that which suited the particular situation best. If they thought the mission needed some sneaky Reivers and Warsuits, they would fight in a way like you would more expect Raven Guard and White Scars to fight.
Ultramarines are very "take the units and fight in the way that is best for this specific situation" unlike say Iron Warriors who would say "we've got the guys and we've got the siege guns, we are going to fight this fight the way we know until they run out of soldiers".
You wouldn't want Reivers anyway as they're fething awful and a joke of a unit entry.
If you want primarily Primaris, 4 squads of Intercessors are already a requirement. You'll want at least two squads of either Scouts or Infiltrators. Up to you how PURE you want it, but Scouts are literally half their price and, while the 12" denial is awesome, you can get more separate coverage instead of the one giant bubble.
Aggressors are amazing as Ultramarines so use 3 squads of 4 at minimum. The Warsuits are decent and nothing amazing. Hellblasters are too expensive to be of much worth, as I don't think they get much survival stuff as Ultramarines.
As well, while I know you want to try and keep pure Primaris, keep in mind you should look at this based on models and not unit entries. If you got a Thunderfire Cannon with a converted "Primaris" Techmarine, you're more likely gonna get compliments than complaints. Wanna use that Mk10 armor dude but wanna attach a Jump Pack and Thunder Hammer and just throw him against stuff? Just do it and run the regular Captain entry. Primaris are great models but don't limit your unit entries because of them.
I have to say I’m starting to lean into this idea more and more. Got rid of all my none primaris models as they just don’t look great next to my Primaris but think I’m hampering my self tactically.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also intercessors and aggressors are a key part of UM with their super doctrine
What do you guys think of this 2k list that I put together for IH? I wanted a focus on vehicles/primaris but I havent played or made a SM list since like, 3rd edition so its been a while.
Billagio wrote: What do you guys think of this 2k list that I put together for IH? I wanted a focus on vehicles/primaris but I havent played or made a SM list since like, 3rd edition so its been a while.
Starting to build a fun/fluffy Ultramarine 10th Company project with lots of Scouts and Vanguard Marines (with some Intercessors from the 7th Reserve thrown in).
Since I wont be using Named Characters (the whole theme is a recon army of rookies and trainees) are there any good Successor Trait combos to use with Ultras in particular I should consider?
I'd just stick with their core Trait, which is good. Otherwise if you want durability there's Stealthy and pick whatever else you want depending on the list.
The list is mostly Sniper Scouts, Eliminators, Bolter Scouts, Intercessors, Infiltrators, CCW Scouts, Reivers, and ML Heavy Bolters, with Suppressors and a Stormtalon.
Stealthy seems like a fit for the theme, and then Bolter Fullicade or Master Artisans, although I have lots of rerolls from Captains, Lts, Chaplain, and allied Inquisitor.
With forced movement in the Doctrine Chart there isn't a point in keeping them there. I personally still use them with Raven Guard though because the Super Doctrine is ace with it.
IG and Cust player here. Thinking of crossing my fate with Ultramarines, as I like the feel of the chapter (coming from the toolbox imperial guard this seems natural), and the Primaris developments. However I have found little to no grasps for starting an army. Could you please suggest me a way to build up a core, flexible 1000 pt army? I suppose regardless of future playstyle there is a cadre of models you should get and always have.
Ultras capitalize on Tactical Doctrine so lots of Bolt weaponry, plus whatever Heavy weapon you like.
Aggressors are pretty cheesy for them. Lots of the tanks and flyers will benefit from being Counts as Stationary. Intercessors and the like are also strong for UM.
The UM special characters open up different play styles. Calgar/Guilliman gunlines. Tiberius Psychic support. Chronus for a super Tank. So all depends what direction you want the army to go.
My own UM list is themed 10th Company, so I'm using lots of sniper scouts, bolter scouts, and CCW scouts, to move through each doctrine, leaving battle company units like Hellblasters and Aggressors out, and focusing on Vanguard units like Eliminators and Infiltrators instead.
IG and Cust player here. Thinking of crossing my fate with Ultramarines, as I like the feel of the chapter (coming from the toolbox imperial guard this seems natural), and the Primaris developments. However I have found little to no grasps for starting an army. Could you please suggest me a way to build up a core, flexible 1000 pt army? I suppose regardless of future playstyle there is a cadre of models you should get and always have.
Thank you.
2-3 units of Bolt Rifle Intercessors, 10men strong each. A few bolt scouts as screen. Marneus Calgar or a CP upgraded Chapter Master, a Lieutenant, then add some heavy weapon bearers such as flyers or Dev squad. I bet you won't regret it
I want to try to get into 40k, and I like the looks of Space Marines. It helps that I can get a force into a travel bag easily enough. I have some questions about 40k and Space Marines. If this is not the place, feel free to deler the post.
I have been playing around on Battlescribe to learn a bit Space Marines and what make a them tick. Parts og my list are based on models i like (Repulsor and Predator), and the mix og troops based on what id like i the army to look like. Because of this it's probably not very competative, but id still like to have some bite and be able to win a game or two.
Spoiler:
1992/2000 points. 13 CP - 1 CP for Chief Librarian.
Detachment
Captain in Phobos Armour
2x Lieutenants
Aggressor Squad (4) w/ Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstone Grenade Launcher
Deimos Pattern Bal Predator w/ Two Lascannons, Predator Autocannon, Hunter-Killer Misslie
Venerable Dreadnought w/ Storm Bolt fist and Multimelta.
Repolsor Executioner w/ Heavy Laser Destroyer, Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod
Predator, w/ Predator Autocannon, Two Lascannons, Storm Bolter and Hunter-Killer Misslie
Detachment
Librarian, Chief Librarian, w/ Veil of Heroes and Pshycic Scourge
Captain barebones
Techmarine
I am unsure what chapter, og successive chapter tactics that this would for with. I know I can paint them any way i feel like.
Does anyone spot anything illegal in the list? Anything i am missing in terms of firepower/units that is a common thing to have?
As for some questions:
1) do the Lieutenants and Captains rerolls work for vehicles?
2) Is the second detachment worth it in terms of the extra cp?
3) Im a little unclear on strategems as a sucessor chapter: what strategems can they access? Their ancestor chapter? What about traits and relics?
I want to try to get into 40k, and I like the looks of Space Marines. It helps that I can get a force into a travel bag easily enough. I have some questions about 40k and Space Marines. If this is not the place, feel free to deler the post.
I have been playing around on Battlescribe to learn a bit Space Marines and what make a them tick. Parts og my list are based on models i like (Repulsor and Predator), and the mix og troops based on what id like i the army to look like. Because of this it's probably not very competative, but id still like to have some bite and be able to win a game or two.
Spoiler:
Detachment
Captain in Phobos Armour
2x Lieutenants
Aggressor Squad (4) w/ Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstone Grenade Launcher
Deimos Pattern Bal Predator w/ Two Lascannons, Predator Autocannon, Hunter-Killer Misslie
Venerable Dreadnought w/ Storm Bolt fist and Multimelta.
Repolsor Executioner w/ Heavy Laser Destroyer, Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod
Bal Predator Twin and Two Lascannons, Storm Bolter and Hunter-Killer Missile
Detachment
Librarian, Chief Librarian, w/ Veil of Heroes and Pshycic Scourge
Captain barebones
Techmarine
Scout Squad (5), one with Sniper
Scout Squad (5), one with Sniper
Scout Squad (5), one with Sniper
I am unsure what chapter, og successive chapter tactics that this would for with. I know I can paint them any way i feel like.
Does anyone spot anything illegal in the list? Anything i am missing in terms of firepower/units that is a common thing to have?
As for some questions:
1) do the Lieutenants and Captains rerolls work for vehicles?
2) Is the second detachment worth it in terms of the extra cp?
3) Im a little unclear on strategems as a sucessor chapter: what strategems can they access? Their ancestor chapter? What about traits and relics?
Sorry if these have been asked before.
1 - Yes, they specify that all <chapter> units within 6" get their respective rerolls. Vehicles are <chapter> units - They must be the same chapter though (An UM captain can't give an IH unit rerolls)
2 - In general yes, Marines have a lot of stratagems that can be leveraged well, but they can be expensive.
3 - If your using a successor, they have access to all the strategems found in Codex: Space Marines and the parent chapters book (Note: This is only for the Codex Space Marine chaptes, so it does not include blood angels, dark angels, space wolves, deathwatch, or grey knights)
As a successor you will have to pay an extra CP for the unique Chapter relics IIRC.
As per the list, what points are you playing at?
Beyond that
- Drop the multimelta on the dreadnought, I can make standard meltaguns work but the Multimelta is probably one of the worst weapons in the marine codex.
- I don't think marines have access to the baal predator, but they still have the standard one. I'd recommend running it with the Predator Autocannon for the second one as well. Flat 3 damage is really good.
- Either make your scouts all snipers (which I wouldn't recommend, but you might find them useful) or make them all boltguns or shotguns. These units generally act as your screen, and even if they die turn 1 they can be MVPs by buying space.
Ah, of course I forgot the points. It is a 2000 point list, matched play i think it's called? Not based on the PL-system.
The Ba'al Predator name is probably an error. Think i picked up the name reading the Blood Angels book, and it sorta stuck. Ive changed it to just "Predator Tank".
You are suggesting the Predator Autocannon over Two Lascannon shots. I have just read I need a fair bit of Lascannons to deal with high ap/high wounds vehicles/monsters?
The scout snipers was just 6 points i didnt have anywhere to place, not planned or anything. The general plan with them was to babysit objectives out of the way, or screen vehicles from charges. Will try to ammende the list.
Im thinking Long-range Marksman and Master Artistans as tactics, and Iron Hands sucessor?
The TL Lascannons on the Predator are too swingy with the D6 damage, and against non-Imperial Knight Imperium Tanks you can expect the AP-3 to matter but not to anyone else.
Are ultramarine successors a thing people use, or do people mostly use the founding chapter?
Seems like a lot of people use the UM characters in lists I’ve seen, but their chapter bonus seems lacklustre compared to other bonuses you could take instead.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you could custom Chapter to still get the pseudo Fly Successors might be a thing for them.
Wouldn't you just take ultras at that point so you can use their characters? It's the only one they can take, right.
The pseudo Fly is really the best part about them as the really good shooty choices without Fly in the first place want to not be stuck trying to hit stuff. The good characters is merely why you don't choose a Successor with Inheritors. Once we have updated rules/points for the FW characters we will see if that continues to be the case.
Alright so I prepared my third iteration of a Carcharodons list out of boredom. Won't be playing for probably a few months so yeah. ANYWAY here you go, and it's two Battalions, and the traits for the army are Raven Guard Successors w/ Stealthy and Hungry For Battle (or should it be Whirlwind of Gore?):
x1 Tyberos
x1 Lt. w/ MC Bolter, Power Fist
3x5 Intercessors w/ Aux Grenade Launcher, Power Sword
2x4 Assault Centurions w/ Hurricane Bolters, Flamers
2x2 Relic Contemptors w/ TL Autocannon, Chainfist
The list is pretty darn simple. You rush at the opponent. Centurions have the durability to be deployed more midfield and not lose any firepower, with either Tyberos next to them, Suicide Captain runs with the Contemptors, who won't lose any movement speed on their damage chart (which is a godsend if you want melee Dreads). My main reason for being here is getting advice on how to select Librarian powers (since I'm not using them ever) and where to put my Warlord Traits and relics.
I know the Celestial Lions are Imperial Fists successors, but what traits represent them best?
And can an good army be made from a core of just Devastators, Assault Marines and Dual Claw Terminators and shooty Terms? With no primarius or vehicles other than Land Speeders?
EDIT Nevermind. Just made an army list to get feedback.
What do people tend to arm Intercessors/Hellblasters with?
I'm thinking about maybe perhaps doing a small Primaris only force but have no idea if people use Auto-Bolt Rifles, or Heavy Plasma Incinerators, etc.
Any idea on chapter tactics?
Also, with 9th incoming, any advice is on the clock.
For the bolt rifle, I think they are all situationally useful. Chapter can make a big swing here. As an Ultra, the rapid fire is my go-to, The weight of fire from the autos is nice, and the heavy can plink some wounds on.
Plasma I think is still fixed on the rapid fire rifle. Not worth loosing the S for the assault, or the shot for the heavy.
I'm returning to my Black Templars with the new melee models. I intended to get some Impulsors to emulate the rhino rush of old, but those things are superexpensive money wise. Am i better off slamming a few repulsors? What is the "must have" core of Primaris? (Besides Cap, Lt and 3 Intercessors ofc )
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm returning to my Black Templars with the new melee models. I intended to get some Impulsors to emulate the rhino rush of old, but those things are superexpensive money wise. Am i better off slamming a few repulsors? What is the "must have" core of Primaris? (Besides Cap, Lt and 3 Intercessors ofc )
Honestly? Everything in Indomitus is must have for Templars.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm returning to my Black Templars with the new melee models. I intended to get some Impulsors to emulate the rhino rush of old, but those things are superexpensive money wise. Am i better off slamming a few repulsors? What is the "must have" core of Primaris? (Besides Cap, Lt and 3 Intercessors ofc )
Honestly? Everything in Indomitus is must have for Templars.
I sure think so, i'll get more of those bladeguard vets as soon as they hit shelves ^^
The question was more aimed at the rest of the army though, like repulsors or impulsors for transport. Do i need an executioner as fire support or do a nappy dread or two suffice? Are eliminators necessary? For troops i think of a large blobe of assault intercessors, 5mam regular Intercessors and some Incursors for backfield fun, but those won't take apart tanks. And since i didn't play my men in black for some time and don't have many primaris models i'm curious to know, what actually works on the tabletop.
So, we've seen the points cost of pretty much everything in the basic marine codex. Has anyone done a breakdown on the pts increase as of yet? I'd be curious to see the bench mark rise in costs.
cody.d. wrote: So, we've seen the points cost of pretty much everything in the basic marine codex. Has anyone done a breakdown on the pts increase as of yet? I'd be curious to see the bench mark rise in costs.
So Primaris Marines are getting the following releases in 9th:
New Captain
New Lieutenant
New Chaplain (same rules just new sculpt)
Judiciar
Bladeguard Veterans
Bladeguard Ancient
Eradicators
Assault Intercessor Squad
Outriders
Invader ATV (essentially the new attack bike)
Firestrike Servo-turret
Hammerfall Bunker
Techmarine
Chaplain on a bike
Am I missing anything?
Looking at the rules for what was previewed so far everything looks good. The eradicators will be probably be nerfed I would expect.
There is definitely a landspeeder looking thing in one of the fuzzy potato pics
Looks like some new tank there too, or at least a turret. (i actually hope its some sort of baal repulsor and the chapters start getting a bit of their own primaris flavour)
So we are getting a pile of new stuff, but how much of it looks to be worth taking?
The melta guys look to be a clear winner. Their one big issue looks to be how to get them where thy need to be.
Bikes look solid, more so if priced aggressively.
I still tend to think of chaplains as melee beatsticks and combat multipliers. But the range of litanies available to them makes them a lot more these days. He’s our first generic primaris character who’s not footslogging. (although some had deployment options)
Some new gear options on old characters will be welcome.
A bunch of choppy stuff. Which is welcome, but all suffers from the problem of being on foot.
The turret and bunker could be useful for adding to castles if the price is right.
Shooter wrote:There is definitely a landspeeder looking thing in one of the fuzzy potato pics
Spoiler:
Looks like some new tank there too, or at least a turret. (i actually hope its some sort of baal repulsor and the chapters start getting a bit of their own primaris flavour)
I forgot about that pic. I hope the tank on the bottom left is more of predator style primaris vehicle. The repulsor tanks are nice but expensive.
Nevelon wrote:So we are getting a pile of new stuff, but how much of it looks to be worth taking?
The melta guys look to be a clear winner. Their one big issue looks to be how to get them where thy need to be.
Bikes look solid, more so if priced aggressively.
I still tend to think of chaplains as melee beatsticks and combat multipliers. But the range of litanies available to them makes them a lot more these days. He’s our first generic primaris character who’s not footslogging. (although some had deployment options)
Some new gear options on old characters will be welcome.
A bunch of choppy stuff. Which is welcome, but all suffers from the problem of being on foot.
The turret and bunker could be useful for adding to castles if the price is right.
The main models I am iffy on are the bladeguard unit and ancient. Sword and shield primaris on foot conceptually I think should struggle in a game where shooting is so powerful. The ancient suffers from the new character rules I think. At only 3 man squads if the bladguard take any casualties then they can't screen for him anymore and he himself is very squishy.
The assault intercessors I was worried about but they look potentially rather good. Unless their SM chainsword cost pts then they should be cheaper than the other primaris troop choices. Under assault doctrine, they put out a good number of AP -2 attacks with their pistols and SM chainswords.
All the characters look great. I have played against armor of Russ before so I know how powerful the Judiciar's ability can be. Both the new profiles for the primaris captain and lieutentant look great. IMO the best primaris captain prior to the this was the Captain in Phobos armor but the new one looks great if you want more of a front line captain.
How do you think Scions of Guilliman (if it remains the same) will interact with the reinforcement rules from 9th? Thinking of Aggressors arriving as strategic reserves from t2 for example.
Scions says "...models with this ability that moved in your Movement phase, but did not Advance or Fall Back, can make attacks with ranged weapons in the following Shooting phase as if their unit had remained stationary this turn."
Reinforcement rules: "Reinforcement units cannot make a normal move, Advance, Fall Back or remain stationary for any reason, but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, fight etc.)....
How do you think Scions of Guilliman (if it remains the same) will interact with the reinforcement rules from 9th? Thinking of Aggressors arriving as strategic reserves from t2 for example.
Scions says "...models with this ability that moved in your Movement phase, but did not Advance or Fall Back, can make attacks with ranged weapons in the following Shooting phase as if their unit had remained stationary this turn."
Reinforcement rules: "Reinforcement units cannot make a normal move, Advance, Fall Back or remain stationary for any reason, but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, fight etc.)....
Thanks!
I think they would benefit from Scions of Guilliman. The reinforcement rules say you count as moving a distance equal to your movement characteristic. At no point does it say you count as falling back or advancing.
KingmanHighborn wrote: I know the Celestial Lions are Imperial Fists successors, but what traits represent them best?
And can an good army be made from a core of just Devastators, Assault Marines and Dual Claw Terminators and shooty Terms? With no primarius or vehicles other than Land Speeders?
EDIT Nevermind. Just made an army list to get feedback.
Any combo that makes them stubborn as hell to kill. Also, remember never to ally with Inquisitors or Assassins
How do you think Scions of Guilliman (if it remains the same) will interact with the reinforcement rules from 9th? Thinking of Aggressors arriving as strategic reserves from t2 for example.
Scions says "...models with this ability that moved in your Movement phase, but did not Advance or Fall Back, can make attacks with ranged weapons in the following Shooting phase as if their unit had remained stationary this turn."
Reinforcement rules: "Reinforcement units cannot make a normal move, Advance, Fall Back or remain stationary for any reason, but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, fight etc.)....
Thanks!
I think they would benefit from Scions of Guilliman. The reinforcement rules say you count as moving a distance equal to your movement characteristic. At no point does it say you count as falling back or advancing.
Hi, its the "... or remain stationary for any reason ..." in the Reinforcement rule that I am thinking about. "For any reasons" seems like a definit no-go if you want to shoot twice with aggressors from strategic reserve while Scions of Guilliman is active. I hope I am wrong though!
How do you think Scions of Guilliman (if it remains the same) will interact with the reinforcement rules from 9th? Thinking of Aggressors arriving as strategic reserves from t2 for example.
Scions says "...models with this ability that moved in your Movement phase, but did not Advance or Fall Back, can make attacks with ranged weapons in the following Shooting phase as if their unit had remained stationary this turn."
Reinforcement rules: "Reinforcement units cannot make a normal move, Advance, Fall Back or remain stationary for any reason, but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, fight etc.)....
Thanks!
I think they would benefit from Scions of Guilliman. The reinforcement rules say you count as moving a distance equal to your movement characteristic. At no point does it say you count as falling back or advancing.
Hi, its the "... or remain stationary for any reason ..." in the Reinforcement rule that I am thinking about. "For any reasons" seems like a definit no-go if you want to shoot twice with aggressors from strategic reserve while Scions of Guilliman is active. I hope I am wrong though!
It definitely remains to be seen exactly how in depth the new FAQ and errata will be. If they went through and touched every overwatch piece, would they have gone and done the same to all movement related items? Now that they have defined different move types, it would be trivial to update these rules be easier to understand.
And there's the question on if the app makes these things easy to reference. I have very high hopes for the app, especially if it provides unit rules all in one place.
Just been reading my current codex again and for some reason I’d never read the grapnal launcher rules properly for Reivers. From what I can tell, if the whole unit has the launchers they basically have “Strategic Reinforcement” already for free (as in no CP cost) as in they can arrive from any table edge. Or am I reading that wrong?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m also liking the new Primaris Chaplain on bike. A good way to get litanies further up field fast and I’m wondering if he’ll get the “devastating charge” rule that the Outriders got? If so give him the relic crozaius and Imperiums sword warlord trait and have fun with the Outriders.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Just been reading my current codex again and for some reason I’d never read the grapnal launcher rules properly for Reivers. From what I can tell, if the whole unit has the launchers they basically have “Strategic Reinforcement” already for free (as in no CP cost) as in they can arrive from any table edge. Or am I reading that wrong?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m also liking the new Primaris Chaplain on bike. A good way to get litanies further up field fast and I’m wondering if he’ll get the “devastating charge” rule that the Outriders got? If so give him the relic crozaius and Imperiums sword warlord trait and have fun with the Outriders.
Better than the new rule, as it’s any table edge when they show up.
Which doesn’t solve the reivers main problem of not actually doing much when they show up for their points. They have two nice move/deploy options (which they have to pay extra for) but all they bring are a few S4, no AP attacks. Which marines are not lacking for ways to get.
I’m really liking the look of the chaplain. As long as his points are OK, he could see a bit of table time. Assuming he’s not priced crazy from a $$ POV. With what they ask for primaris characters on foot, who knows what heights they will reach for a bike one.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Is it worth them having the carbines then and clearing artillery and characters from back field
In a word: no.
Marines arent lacking in Character killing options, and with the advent of another means of deep striking there's far killier shooting platforms that can be delivered to the enemy backfield.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Just been reading my current codex again and for some reason I’d never read the grapnal launcher rules properly for Reivers. From what I can tell, if the whole unit has the launchers they basically have “Strategic Reinforcement” already for free (as in no CP cost) as in they can arrive from any table edge. Or am I reading that wrong?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m also liking the new Primaris Chaplain on bike. A good way to get litanies further up field fast and I’m wondering if he’ll get the “devastating charge” rule that the Outriders got? If so give him the relic crozaius and Imperiums sword warlord trait and have fun with the Outriders.
Better than the new rule, as it’s any table edge when they show up.
Which doesn’t solve the reivers main problem of not actually doing much when they show up for their points. They have two nice move/deploy options (which they have to pay extra for) but all they bring are a few S4, no AP attacks. Which marines are not lacking for ways to get.
I’m really liking the look of the chaplain. As long as his points are OK, he could see a bit of table time. Assuming he’s not priced crazy from a $$ POV. With what they ask for primaris characters on foot, who knows what heights they will reach for a bike one.
My guesstimate is €40. Which is indeed expensive but it's not something I'd be unwilling to pay. Model looks gorgeous and if the Outrider rules are anything to go by he'll be a lightning fast, durable beatstick with a diverse selection of aura's. A White Scars one that's promoted to a Master of Sanctity with double Warlord Traits and Adamantium Mantle for extra beefiness or Benediction of Fury for extra choppiness looks especially tasty. Or a Space Wolves one with Saga of the Hunter using Touch of the Wild on the charge.
I’ve been a chaplain fan from the start, through thick and thin, when their rules were great, or garbage. No model quite captures the soul of 40k like a chaplain. Which is appropriate. I might balk at the price, I might wait for him to show up on amazon discounters so I can use guilt-free gift cards, I might cringe when I add him to cart, but I will pick him up eventually.
Obviously without points or rules in hand, we can only guess at how effective he will be. But what we can see looks promising. Will it be as effective as other options? Who knows, that’s a fickle tiger to chase. Will it be fun to scream litanies to the Emperor, zoom across the battlefield, and put a crozius through the head of some filthy heretic? You know it will be.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm returning to my Black Templars with the new melee models. I intended to get some Impulsors to emulate the rhino rush of old, but those things are superexpensive money wise. Am i better off slamming a few repulsors? What is the "must have" core of Primaris? (Besides Cap, Lt and 3 Intercessors ofc )
Honestly? Everything in Indomitus is must have for Templars.
I sure think so, i'll get more of those bladeguard vets as soon as they hit shelves ^^
The question was more aimed at the rest of the army though, like repulsors or impulsors for transport. Do i need an executioner as fire support or do a nappy dread or two suffice? Are eliminators necessary? For troops i think of a large blobe of assault intercessors, 5mam regular Intercessors and some Incursors for backfield fun, but those won't take apart tanks. And since i didn't play my men in black for some time and don't have many primaris models i'm curious to know, what actually works on the tabletop.
Redemptor Dreads are good solid fire support for sure. If your playing Black Templars, 2 units of 10 assault intercessors in 2 Repulsors crashing into the enemy with the Bike Chaplain and some Outriders would be a nasty charge.
So, per the new FAQ, White Scars (attack) bikes no longer ignore the penalty from heavy weapons, but all White Scars now ignore the penalty from Advancing and Firing Assault weapons.
In addition to advance and charge, of course.
*Page 175 – White Scars: Lightning Assault
Change the second sentence of this Chapter Tactic to read:
‘Models with this tactic do not suffer the penalty for Advancing
and firing Assault weapons.’
Voss wrote: So, per the new FAQ, White Scars (attack) bikes no longer ignore the penalty from heavy weapons, but all White Scars now ignore the penalty from Advancing and Firing Assault weapons.
In addition to advance and charge, of course.
*Page 175 – White Scars: Lightning Assault
Change the second sentence of this Chapter Tactic to read:
‘Models with this tactic do not suffer the penalty for Advancing
and firing Assault weapons.’
Surprise, you're a primaris foot army now?
Objections, thoughts?
Isn't the ignore heavy penalty part of the main rules for everyone bar infantry? So the attack bike would be fine?
You're right. Hadn't integrated that yet. Was thinking 'vehicle' rather than 'not infantry.'
That explains some of the change, but not the rest, especially given how many assault weapons there are in primaris units. Except, ironically, the bikes. Though those are a good charge unit.
So I've seen conflicting things on this:
I'm getting the (hopefully double) marine side of indomitus, and I really want to paint them as pre-angron world eaters, and maybe mix it up with some chainaxes/head swaps.
Because of this, do I have to use successor chapter/make my own rules? Because I'd really like to be able to still use white scars rules because No1 I think that they are a very good fit of the lore of world eaters (war hounds) as they were before the nails and khorne, and also because I want to go white scars for the rules benefit.
(The context here being that I'll only mostly play in my local gw, however if I think my army gets good enough I would want to play at a tournament level)
If I do instead have to run a successor, what rules do I still get from them? As someone new to marines I've yet to wrap my head around them and the mixing pot of what successors get.
Cheers, am really looking forward to getting my hands on choppy marines
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: So I've seen conflicting things on this:
I'm getting the (hopefully double) marine side of indomitus, and I really want to paint them as pre-angron world eaters, and maybe mix it up with some chainaxes/head swaps.
Because of this, do I have to use successor chapter/make my own rules? Because I'd really like to be able to still use white scars rules because No1 I think that they are a very good fit of the lore of world eaters (war hounds) as they were before the nails and khorne, and also because I want to go white scars for the rules benefit.
(The context here being that I'll only mostly play in my local gw, however if I think my army gets good enough I would want to play at a tournament level)
If I do instead have to run a successor, what rules do I still get from them? As someone new to marines I've yet to wrap my head around them and the mixing pot of what successors get.
Cheers, am really looking forward to getting my hands on choppy marines
Very worst case you run them as a White Scar Successor which gives you everything except the White Scar special character (Khan) and the White Scar relic (Tho you can spend 1 cp to still get the relic)
But I would expect most (all) to be ok with you running them as 'true' White Scars.
As always up to the TO.
Big guns never tire, and Invictor Warsuit stealth nerf:
Not really a nerf, just a strange reversal in the rules; but "Heavy Sidearm is still a rule on the Invictor with the new FAQs. This means that we can either still Fire the Heavy Bolter, or every other gun that isn't the fragstorm while in engagement Range. Not sure about the rest of you , but I would rather have the 2d6 equal-stat auto-hitting shots plus 6 Heavy Stubber, or 6 S7 d2shots plus 6 heavy stubbers than just 3 HB shots (I mean, ideally I would rather get the HB shots as well).
I have been thinking about the impact of Strategic Reserves as turn 1 protection on the Devastator Doctrine chapters, and I really hope GW will FAQ back/change in the new codex the limitation of DD to turn 1.
As IH/IF, your most important targets could be absent from the table the turn your shooting is more relevant (just to pop in unscathed and unleash their firepower unmolested). This clearly devaluates further their superdoctrines.
Putting any two relevant tanks is already 2 command points spent in SR, but they will have them in spades this edition. We will see if that defensive strategy is used a lot against us or only rarely.
All in all, it starts as a nerf for those two former glories.
Anyone looked at which units for the imperial fists will shine this edition? I’m struggling to make anything competitive. My experience so far is their “sons of Dorn” trait is useless now. All the extra terrain means all my games so far means I have very few targets until turn 2. Also, the price increase of heavy bolters was a kick in the groin. Also, centurions are useless and dead to me at 95pts each now.
broxus wrote: Anyone looked at which units for the imperial fists will shine this edition? I’m struggling to make anything competitive. My experience so far is their “sons of Dorn” trait is useless now. All the extra terrain means all my games so far means I have very few targets until turn 2. Also, the price increase of heavy bolters was a kick in the groin. Also, centurions are useless and dead to me at 95pts each now.
I ran a spreadsheet and Repulsor Executioner with Macro Plasma is one of the units which benefits the most from Sons of Dorn. It's also a really good target for Tankhunters and Garadon's 2+ to hit.
In addition, Fly should be useful to get out of hiding, and could (correct me if I'm wrong) allow to get on second/upper floors of ruins (or other Escalable terrain) for better LoS.
Close second come Suppressors, with a good increase in their damage output from Sons of Dorn. Also very easy to hide then get into position (even if suffering from -1 to hit).
I'm ignoring oldmarines because I don't play them, but Droppod Grav Devastators should remain properly scary on turn 1.
All in all, 9th edition sounds like a nerf for IF and I hope some rebalancing is done later. But I don't think we are useless, yet.
I heard no more Vigilus Campaign detachments in 9th. Even a bigger nerf to IF. Since Sons of Dorn is useless and I can’t take detachments. I have no idea what is worth taking.
broxus wrote: I heard no more Vigilus Campaign detachments in 9th. Even a bigger nerf to IF. Since Sons of Dorn is useless and I can’t take detachments. I have no idea what is worth taking.
Only for tournament matched play - it's a rule in the Chapter Approved book. They're still perfectly legal when using the Eternal War Matched Play missions in the main rulebook and every other format that isn't the GT mission pack.
broxus wrote: I heard no more Vigilus Campaign detachments in 9th. Even a bigger nerf to IF. Since Sons of Dorn is useless and I can’t take detachments. I have no idea what is worth taking.
Only for tournament matched play - it's a rule in the Chapter Approved book. They're still perfectly legal when using the Eternal War Matched Play missions in the main rulebook and every other format that isn't the GT mission pack.
I would expect most tournaments (outside of maybe ITC if they keep doing their own thing) to copy the GT mission pack and generally the Pick-up game scene tends to mirror what the tournament scene is doing.
broxus wrote: I heard no more Vigilus Campaign detachments in 9th. Even a bigger nerf to IF. Since Sons of Dorn is useless and I can’t take detachments. I have no idea what is worth taking.
Only for tournament matched play - it's a rule in the Chapter Approved book. They're still perfectly legal when using the Eternal War Matched Play missions in the main rulebook and every other format that isn't the GT mission pack.
Yea I really only play tournament style games. It seems that is going to be the norm. This really really hurts Imperial Fists. With all the SM which were directed at Iron Hands it has put them in a bad spot in 9th. I play multiple armies and honestly they are now the worst off I guess at least my Death Guard army is much better.
After looking at the new points does anyone have any idea why a Contemptor dreadnaught is the same point cost as the Relic Contemptor dreadnaught vastly better. Am I missing something???
broxus wrote: After looking at the new points does anyone have any idea why a Contemptor dreadnaught is the same point cost as the Relic Contemptor dreadnaught vastly better. Am I missing something???
GW stated that points increases for 9th were to allow for more granularity after repeated points cuts since forever (which is true - back in 2nd ed, a basic bolter marine cost 30 points and a lasgun guardsman was 10). The new points however are blatantly just an arbitrary rounding up with no attempt at balancing units within factions or cross faction and the Contemptor variants are just one of the more obvious examples - grots vs guardsmen and grav cannons vs heavy bolters are more examples of things that have no business being at the same price point.
broxus wrote: After looking at the new points does anyone have any idea why a Contemptor dreadnaught is the same point cost as the Relic Contemptor dreadnaught vastly better. Am I missing something???
Nice find. Ya, there is no reason to take a normal contemptor now and those were already good.
broxus wrote: After looking at the new points does anyone have any idea why a Contemptor dreadnaught is the same point cost as the Relic Contemptor dreadnaught vastly better. Am I missing something???
The missing piece here is the new FW index. No idea how the relic contemptor will adjusted rules wise.
ultimentra wrote: Isn't it time for a new thread? Or are we waiting for the next codex?
seems best to me to wait for a new codex. not a lot for marines has changed since codex 8.5 and we know that our codex is coming in Oct. where I guess we'll need to welcome our DA, BA, SW and DW brothers.
Holy gak you're right... this is a bigger deal than I realized. Not only is that book going to be enormous but also there won't be separate angels and wolves threads anymore... wow... how times change.
ultimentra wrote: Holy gak you're right... this is a bigger deal than I realized. Not only is that book going to be enormous but also there won't be separate angels and wolves threads anymore... wow... how times change.
My initial thought is that each First Founding Chapter should get a thread of their own, or at the very least the Big 4 Non Codex Compliant ones should keep theirs. I know I have been following the Dark Angel one for some time and it definitely feels like different information then this thread.
If there were 10 separate threads though then no one should actually post in Space Marine general and that probably isn't going to happen.
Gonna be interesting to see if other Codex Supplement chapters get units and such of their own down the road, eventually separate discussion areas may be necessary.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: This might have already been answered but would the assault intercessors be eligible for the veteran intercessors stratagem?
A 10 man unit in the assault doctrine in the first round of combat would then put out 51 ap-2 attacks
I would say no. The Stratagem targets an INTERCESSOR squad.
Assault Intercessors have the ASSAULT INTERCESSOR keyword instead.
That might well change with the new codex though, with the cuŕrent datasheet assault intercessor sergeants can't take melee weapons other than a chainsword. Which is clearly rid... oh. Oh no. No, please don't...
Cpt. Icanus wrote: That might well change with the new codex though, with the cuŕrent datasheet assault intercessor sergeants can't take melee weapons other than a chainsword. Which is clearly rid... oh. Oh no. No, please don't...
Inquisition got him.
But seriously - I expect the Veteran Intercessor stratagem to completely disappear given the new data sheet for Veteran Intercessors in the codex table of contents. My hope is that this is a new kit, because honestly I would be hard pressed to see the value in an Elite unit of Intercessors with +1 A and +1 Ld unless they had some unique options. Plus, it would be a fine new base for a Deathwatch Veteran Primaris Kill Team, so I'm super hopeful.
Where did you see the table of contents? I assume from the codex video on Saturday?
I’ve seen references to “Heavy Intercessors” to with an image of a Grav captain with Stalker bolter being shown.
Surely we’re not getting that many new kits along with Indomitus the quad bike, turret, bike chaplain, tech marine drop pod bunker thing and the new Gladiator tank?
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Where did you see the table of contents? I assume from the codex video on Saturday?
I’ve seen references to “Heavy Intercessors” to with an image of a Grav captain with Stalker bolter being shown.
Surely we’re not getting that many new kits along with Indomitus the quad bike, turret, bike chaplain, tech marine drop pod bunker thing and the new Gladiator tank?
It's not a Stalker bolter. It's a Heavy bolt rifle, the regular version of the master-crafted Heavy bolt rifle the new Gravis Captain carries.
We know nothing about the stats, hopefully closer to a Heavy bolter than to a bolt rifle. Primaris-only Imperial Fists players would love them so much.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Where did you see the table of contents? I assume from the codex video on Saturday?
I’ve seen references to “Heavy Intercessors” to with an image of a Grav captain with Stalker bolter being shown.
Surely we’re not getting that many new kits along with Indomitus the quad bike, turret, bike chaplain, tech marine drop pod bunker thing and the new Gladiator tank?
Nothing about the stats, only that they exist. If I were a betting man, I'd say it's likely the alternate build we'll get out of the Eradicators box.
But based on the table of contents pulled from the video, these are the new units that aren't yet available in any way:
Captain with Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle
Primaris Chaplain on Bike
Primaris Techmarine
Heavy Intercessor Squad
Veteran Intercessor Squad
Invader ATV Squad
Storm Speeder Hellstrike
Storm Speeder ???? (text is difficult to decipher)
Storm Speeder ????2: Electric Boogaloo
Firestrike Servo
Gladiator Lancer
Gladiator Reaper
Gladiator Valiant
Hammerfall Bunker
We know of 8 of the above, though no dates for anything. We don't know specifics on anything else except that the blurry picture from last year is likely showing the Storm Speeder, the blurry picture of a bulky BA Intercessor from the codex flip through is probably a Heavy Intercessor, and of course the picture of the Captain with the MC Heavy Bolt Rifle. We also don't really know what Veteran Intercessors means.
Conservatively, it is a datasheet replacement of the Stratagem.
But I personally hope it is a new kit that launches with the supplements and stands in as a way to add some DW Veterans with greater wargear selection.
Aeri wrote: Is the impulsor really the best way to Deliver our melee Units?
For Primaris only, yes.
But surely we’d still have to weather a turn of shooting before charging. Presumably we’d have to disembark to cover then charge the following turn? Bit more possible with new Bladeguard I suppose with storm shields.
Aeri wrote: Is the impulsor really the best way to Deliver our melee Units?
For Primaris only, yes.
But surely we’d still have to weather a turn of shooting before charging. Presumably we’d have to disembark to cover then charge the following turn? Bit more possible with new Bladeguard I suppose with storm shields.
Or move impulsor to position, weather, disembar, move and charge. You can't charge if you disembark out of impulsor that moved first. If you do it regular disembark you can stay inside safety of impulsor.
Aeri wrote: Is the impulsor really the best way to Deliver our melee Units?
For Primaris only, yes.
But surely we’d still have to weather a turn of shooting before charging. Presumably we’d have to disembark to cover then charge the following turn? Bit more possible with new Bladeguard I suppose with storm shields.
The Impulsor advances 14+D6" in your turn 1.
It weathers enemy fire on the enemy turn 1.
On your turn 2 you disembark 3" and move 6".
Said unit has now moved ~23+D6" and is free to charge, and has never been under fire directly assuming the Impulsor didn't get destroyed in the previous enemy shooting phase.
Noticed some interesting things about how Centurion Devastators are affected by new points and rules:
-Centurion Devastators get the infantry discount for heavy weapons, but don’t suffer the move & shoot penalty.
-Hurricane bolters and centurion missiles now cost the same, so there’s no longer a premium for taking the MLs -Grav cannons and heavy bolters now cost the same, so there’s no reason to take the HBs (unless you really need the extra range)
-Centurion MLs, as d3 blast weapons, benefit from max hits against any target of 6+ models
-(Not a change, but a synergistic thing) Centurion ML’s are assault weapons, so they are AP-3 during tactical doctrine
True, you’re still talking 85-90 ppm, so not sure if it’s worth it. But I’m leaning Salamanders right now, and Shen has to stand somewhere...
Speaking of HBs, I'm kind of expecting them to eventually see a change in profile. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, to be honest.
No reason a Twin Heavy Bolter should cost the came as a Heavy Onslaught Cannon when the profiles are identical and you're gaining only 6" in range at the cost of half the shots.
At D2 they'd be pretty much identical, so that's what I'm expecting to see. Just not sure how they plan to roll out a change like that since it will apply to every Imperium army.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Noticed some interesting things about how Centurion Devastators are affected by new points and rules:
-Centurion Devastators get the infantry discount for heavy weapons, but don’t suffer the move & shoot penalty.
-Hurricane bolters and centurion missiles now cost the same, so there’s no longer a premium for taking the MLs -Grav cannons and heavy bolters now cost the same, so there’s no reason to take the HBs (unless you really need the extra range)
-Centurion MLs, as d3 blast weapons, benefit from max hits against any target of 6+ models
-(Not a change, but a synergistic thing) Centurion ML’s are assault weapons, so they are AP-3 during tactical doctrine
True, you’re still talking 85-90 ppm, so not sure if it’s worth it. But I’m leaning Salamanders right now, and Shen has to stand somewhere...
I have been looking at the same thing...grav/missile dev cents barely went up in price, net, after the weapons costs are taken into account. I think a lot of folks saw the "headline" massive price increase on the bodies, and didn't do the math on the net of bodies plus weapons. I definitely plan to use mine in that build.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Noticed some interesting things about how Centurion Devastators are affected by new points and rules:
-Centurion Devastators get the infantry discount for heavy weapons, but don’t suffer the move & shoot penalty.
-Hurricane bolters and centurion missiles now cost the same, so there’s no longer a premium for taking the MLs -Grav cannons and heavy bolters now cost the same, so there’s no reason to take the HBs (unless you really need the extra range)
-Centurion MLs, as d3 blast weapons, benefit from max hits against any target of 6+ models
-(Not a change, but a synergistic thing) Centurion ML’s are assault weapons, so they are AP-3 during tactical doctrine
True, you’re still talking 85-90 ppm, so not sure if it’s worth it. But I’m leaning Salamanders right now, and Shen has to stand somewhere...
I have been looking at the same thing...grav/missile dev cents barely went up in price, net, after the weapons costs are taken into account. I think a lot of folks saw the "headline" massive price increase on the bodies, and didn't do the math on the net of bodies plus weapons. I definitely plan to use mine in that build.
Not only that but the lascannon/missile dev cents are actually cheaper.
I'm trying to integrate in Outriders and a Captain on a bike with my armor heavy 1500 point list.
What would be the best role for 3 Outriders, (do they need a Captain on a bike......does the list need one?)
* Edit: Iron Hands
Stormraven - decked out with dakka and carrying an Ironclad Dreadnought.
Land Raider Achilles - used to carry Assault Centurions in a past list, now just love it on the table.
Techmarine - Used to be Iron Father, but now there for repairs on Achilles.
18 Intercessors - 9 with Stalkers. I want more of them on the table and I want my snipers, but the points bump hurt.
3 Outriders - ??
Captain on Bike - ? (what load out for him......best load out and economic load out?)
Its mainly for casual play so I am looking for that blend of fun and competition. I have never run bikes in any of my lists....and I have been playing since 3rd edition. :-)
Da-Rock wrote: I'm trying to integrate in Outriders and a Captain on a bike with my armor heavy 1500 point list.
What would be the best role for 3 Outriders, (do they need a Captain on a bike......does the list need one?)
* Edit: Iron Hands
Stormraven - decked out with dakka and carrying an Ironclad Dreadnought.
Land Raider Achilles - used to carry Assault Centurions in a past list, now just love it on the table.
Techmarine - Used to be Iron Father, but now there for repairs on Achilles.
18 Intercessors - 9 with Stalkers. I want more of them on the table and I want my snipers, but the points bump hurt.
3 Outriders - ??
Captain on Bike - ? (what load out for him......best load out and economic load out?)
Its mainly for casual play so I am looking for that blend of fun and competition. I have never run bikes in any of my lists....and I have been playing since 3rd edition. :-)
"(do they need a Captain on a bike......does the list need one?)" No,but the New Chaplain Primaris on Bike will be a nice buff(still no needed).
Outriders seem pretty good all on their own, maybe with FB Bikers/Attack Bikes or new Primaris Invader(Really Cost/haves/wants) as shooty back-ups; but even if we do get a cpt/lt on a bike sooner the Chaplain is the best buff character with litanies.
They are still in the strange place that all Bikers are at: generally good CC abilities but have better shooting buffs/good guns. Twin Bolt Rifles + Bolter Discipline = 12 shots at all times when not engaged on a really fething durable platform(and even two of the worst litanies for a chaplain-sitter will still do wonders with them) that can be doctrines @ ap-2 for 2 turns before committing to melee... if you really really wanted to hold them back for... reasons.
Basically, 1st turn is the only time they perform... less good, but reserves fixes that as does a slight shorter deployment. You want them shooting double shots for the first 2 turns, and you can charge them in in the second(as their guns churned up to better AP), and they are likely to stomp many units in combat, but in third you can get their chainswords churned up the same as the bolters on those heavier armored targets. Reserving their charge until turn 3/4 is both viable and easy with the range on the guns and effect of Bolter discipline without them feeling like a waste of points(vs, say 8 JP Assault Marines used in the same fashion, or 6/7 with the sgt having a real weapon). They effectively function like a Dreadnaught with 12W, only degrading in shots for every 4 wounds and being just a little easier to wound, but having far more attacks on the charge. Iron Hands only adds to the durability.
Really you need more Ranged anti-tank more than anything to make use of Dev doctrine.
What do you think of this Invictor Datasheet someone found in a new box?
Heavy Bolter changed to 1 shot with S5/AP-1/2D — unknown if this is going to be a new weapon for the Invictor, or an updated heavy bolter profile.
Ironhail Heavy Stubbers listed as Heavy 8, S4/AP-1/1D (was Heavy 3 S4/AP-1/1D) — the old instruction book showed the full datasheet, so I don't know if this one is including the shots for both stubbers, but I doubt they're going up to 8 shots each.
Twin Accelerator Autocannon is S7/AP-2/2D (was S7/AP-1/2D)
Hmm was expecting heavy bolters to go 2D, but figured they would keep their 3 shots. They'd keep pace with Onslaught at 3 shots and 2D, which would make the points hike actually make sense.
But then you'd have a ton of 2 damage shooting from the Invictor, so mayhaps they went with a bespoke weapon to remove that balancing issue.
MinscS2 wrote:Doubt Heavy Bolters will become one-shot.
More likely they've revamped the Invictors old Heavy Bolter with it's funky Pistol-rule into a "Really Heavy Bolt Pistol"
(Or it's simply a typo.)
broxus wrote:If a HB was only 1 shot then a stalker bolt rifle would actually become better due to the extra AP. Sorta seems silly to me.
Totally agree.
While on the other hand, if the normal heavy bolter does go to 2D, it totally explains the massive points increase, especially on vehicle mounted versions.
And since that was a pervasive rumour that went hand in hand with the multi-melta shot bump, I do wonder if there's more to that as well.
There is always the chance that the Invictor's Heavy Bolter is becoming the new "Heavy Bolt Rifle" from the Heavy Intercessors/Gravis Captain with Heavy bolt Rifle.
still kinda meh compared to a unit with Stalker Bolt Rifles as said: Trading +1S for -1AP.
As the Heavy Intercessors are likely an "alternate build" with Eliminators, a 5-man Stalker Bolt Rifle unit would just plain be better for the points(10W vs 9W, Might cost more than 100pts for the Heavy Intercessors, 5 shots with better Ap vs 3 Shots with better Str, etc). They would have to also gain "Total Obliteration" or similar rule to make them anywhere near worth taking over Stalker Ints.
Have you seen the leaked Firestrike profile?
Twin Accelerator Autocannon is Heavy 6 but AP -1.
It could be speculated that Suppressors will get their Accelerator Autocannons changed to Heavy 3 AP-1.
I run some numbers and, without the change, the Firestrike makes them obsolete (minus the gained mobility, but what use is that on a -1 to shoot Heavy weapons squad?). With the change, Suppressors would be very powerful, and absolutely bonkers under Imperial Fists doctrine.
Spado wrote: The mario kart is pretty ugly, better run some good looking suppressors!
A little converting will fix the looks issues to some degree. The rules on the other hand, jesus. Top tier firepower, and solid survivabilitiy for their points.
On an unrelated note....are grav devastators as obscenely insane as I think?
Signum + armored Cherub. 4 grav cannons in a pod. Throw in Gravitic Amplification strat.
With the exception of a larger titan or 25+ man unit, is there anything they cannot erase on the drop? I had a squad drop on me this weekend and cook my 3 eradicators and 10 wounds off of my predator with mediocre rolls. Pretty sure the math says they can cook a Repulsor on the drop turn.
Basically an auto-include in Iron-hands and probably in Imperial fists and Ultramarines right?
edit: If the multimelta changes get applied to all multimeltas, attack bikes and land speeders seem reasonable units again.
Ex: 55pts for a MM attack bike vs 40 pts for an Eradicator.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, grav devs with the strat put even eradicators or multimelta bikes to shame, but with like 1/3 the survivability.
bort wrote: edit: If the multimelta changes get applied to all multimeltas, attack bikes and land speeders seem reasonable units again.
Ex: 55pts for a MM attack bike vs 40 pts for an Eradicator.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, grav devs with the strat put even eradicators or multimelta bikes to shame, but with like 1/3 the survivability.
Survivability is only really a concern if they have something left to strike back with. Erasing double their points cost when they drop means IDGAF if they are immediately destroyed afterwards. Especially when they are sub-200 points WITH the pod.
Every multi-melta platform will have to be re-evaluated if the MM changes are space marine codex wide. Tacticals having a 2 shot heavy weapon get interesting. Attack bikes, dreadnoughts, speeders, devastators....god, imagine 8 close range MM shots into something for sub-200 points? Lots to consider.
I'd hope the 2shot MM changes go gamewide. That gun has been sad for so long and for having multi in the name, it was always weird to only get 1 shot. The wound part of the change would be cool too, but not as game changing if that got left on primaris only because...GW reasons.
I'm waffling on the MMDev idea. I get the thought, you want to fill the pod with something else as you can't use the grav strat twice in the same turn. But that's taking a -1 to hit on your unit that will die after it fires once.
Which back to the survivability point, it's true that in any case you can assume the unit will die after it torches something. But, the 120pt devs will die to anything firing at them, the 120pt eradicators require a modest commitment to remove. That's protecting the rest of your army a little bit.
I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).
Spado wrote:The mario kart is pretty ugly, better run some good looking suppressors!
Oh, I was talking about the Firestrike turret. It does the same as Suppressors, but cheaper. Only if Suppressors gun doesn't get changed, though.
I also kind of dislike the kart.
Blood Hawk wrote:Yes grav devs are really good. They are super squishy though.
And they are squats. No amount of overpowered shooting would convince me to field the stunted, disproportionate Oldmarines.
How I wish they were at least in a separate codex (if not phased out) so they don't mess with the balance of Primaris units.
If the land raider achilles avoids legends it'll be one hell of a brutal platform with new meltas, just enough capacity for some devestators inside too.
Captain on Bike, an LT with a Jump Pack, Tac Squads in Razorbacks (more adequate than good), could drop Termies (remains to be seen if they are any good, but i've seen a few people excited about them) in, Long Range Centurions actually dropped in points apparently, Grav Devs in Pods, Bikes are generally a little bit better at shooting than Outriders (not as tanky, though). Leviathans and Contemptors (Relic or Morti) are still good.
Mobility is key this edition, as you have to get on objectives then use actions on them a lot of the time. We'll see how it shakes out as time goes on.
Sazzlefrats wrote: Can one still make a decent list without using any primaris models?
Absolutely, I don't use Primaris at all and have been having pretty good success - admittedly the sample size is still pretty low (4 TTS games)
Some units you should absolutely recheck are
Ironclads - With a hurricane bolters and chainfist/melta they threaten pretty much any target. Being able to fire the hurricane bolter into CC mitigates hordes locking it down, the flat 4D chainfist makes the area inhospitable to most large targets as well. The major weakness - speed - is mitigated by the fact that you can place it so that your opponent MUST deal with it or cede the objective.
Basic terminators may also make a good comeback this edition - They're exceptional multi-role units with good horde clear and a nasty CC punch. They're durable enough that your opponent will have to dedicate non-negligible fire to kill them, especially if they're in cover.
Anything that can rock a Multi-Melta - If the MM rules the ATV datasheet is using was propagated to all MM, then anything that can mount them will be carrying a significantly nastier punch.
Devastator Squad [6 PL, 125pts] . Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-grav
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp
Galef wrote: I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).
That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though
Galef wrote: I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).
That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though
Are you meaning 8 total, including the 4 Lastalon shots?
Galef wrote: I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).
That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though
Are you meaning 8 total, including the 4 Lastalon shots?
because it only has 2 Multimeltas.
Yes, I mean including the Lastalons. Would be twice the AT firepower of a Land Raider or LasPred within 24" Although it'd need to position very aggressively to utilize that firepower and the points per wound cost will likely be quite high making it a glass cannon.
Galef wrote: I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).
That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though
Are you meaning 8 total, including the 4 Lastalon shots?
because it only has 2 Multimeltas.
Yes, I mean including the Lastalons. Would be twice the AT firepower of a Land Raider or LasPred within 24" Although it'd need to position very aggressively to utilize that firepower and the points per wound cost will likely be quite high making it a glass cannon.
Random napkin math using the Impulsor as a baseline puts it at 210 points to the Predator's 170, which coincidentally is exactly what the Gladiator Valiant without sponsons would cost.
Started playing SM at the end of 8th with IH although I'm not tied to them they were just the hottness at the time. Want to try sticking with SM in 9th too. At the end of 8th I started working on a drop podding dev squad. Trying to figure out what all the tricks are around them though. Can I get some advice on how to configure them for maximum damage? I only bought one box so far wasn't sure if having two squads was optimal based on what characters I would need to add in, etc also have a couple of drop pods already. Not interested in building a list around them just thinking I like the option. Also don't really care what faction I can always adjust with an additional detachment.
necron99 wrote: Started playing SM at the end of 8th with IH although I'm not tied to them they were just the hottness at the time. Want to try sticking with SM in 9th too. At the end of 8th I started working on a drop podding dev squad. Trying to figure out what all the tricks are around them though. Can I get some advice on how to configure them for maximum damage? I only bought one box so far wasn't sure if having two squads was optimal based on what characters I would need to add in, etc also have a couple of drop pods already. Not interested in building a list around them just thinking I like the option. Also don't really care what faction I can always adjust with an additional detachment.
2 boxes and a Tac squad box are always a good Idea: Tac squad box is bodies for all the Weapons, most of which you get 2.
Next up Is the idea of a fairly sacrificial Drop pod squad of Grav canoon Devs that you use Gravitic Amplification strat on(reroll to-wound, and reroll Damage).
After that we also have the Multi-melta sacrificial Drop pod squad(assuming all MM get 2shots and D6+2 damage @ half range).
Chapter does not matter very much, other than Imp Fists with Heavy Bolters, or Sallies with MM. Grav/MM drop units do not need Dev Doctrine(Bonus AP), but IH move-and-fire w/o penalty does help Drop-devs accuracy; but it is almost better with Plasma cannons Overcharging on First turn(Both ignores move-and-fire, and rerolls 1 to hit).
Non-drop-pod Devs are still a good "firebase" core for any chapter army with lascannon, missile Launcher, and/or Heavy bolter. Having a few of all of these is good for your normal tax squads as well; but then, I am a more shooty marine player.
What you will get is 20 shots, S5 
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