footfoe wrote: Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.
They already have a character that does the same thing.
footfoe wrote: Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.
They already have a character that does the same thing.
Funny to think about this, but Feirros went from OP as heck to kinda gimpy in such a short time. He only gives one unit BS2+ where as the new forge master (less than half his cost) gives a 6 inch aura of +1 to hit for vehicles and auto repairs three as well for 45 points. If you want to make him really durable as well just put him on a bike with a gorgans chain now snipers wound him on a 5+.
footfoe wrote: Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.
They already have a character that does the same thing.
Funny to think about this, but Feirros went from OP as heck to kinda gimpy in such a short time. He only gives one unit BS2+ where as the new forge master (less than half his cost) gives a 6 inch aura of +1 to hit for vehicles and auto repairs three as well for 45 points. If you want to make him really durable as well just put him on a bike with a gorgans chain now snipers wound him on a 5+.
I didn't realize this was an aura....Not OP at all. Fair to say it's not really needed. It could be interesing to run a bunch of plasma cannons on dreads and overcharge with outfear of overheat. Overall though - Reroll all hits is just as good.
bmsattler wrote: Keep in mind that you'd be spending 1-2 CP for that ability, but it is fairly strong. I'm kinda holding off on changing much until Chapter Approved to see if Centurions/Aggressors get nerfed, as they seem like they would benefit the most from healing and rezzing.
It would be rather unfair to see them nerfed only because a support character got optional rules which benefit them. But you never know, it's GW
Likewise unfair to see them priced up because RG and WS can teleport them. And same to Aggressors.
I’m assuming Assault Cents will go up if basically everyone except UM runs them. I dunno about Aggressors unless Cents go up by so much that GW doesn’t want everyone swapping to Aggressors and doing the exact same builds. Everyone says Aggressors are undercosted and too good and then no one takes them. If Cents only go up by like 5pts, then I’d hope Aggressors are unchanged, if Cents went up by more I’d guess Aggressors would need to go up by 2-5 to keep them about even.
footfoe wrote: Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.
They already have a character that does the same thing.
Funny to think about this, but Feirros went from OP as heck to kinda gimpy in such a short time. He only gives one unit BS2+ where as the new forge master (less than half his cost) gives a 6 inch aura of +1 to hit for vehicles and auto repairs three as well for 45 points. If you want to make him really durable as well just put him on a bike with a gorgans chain now snipers wound him on a 5+.
I didn't realize this was an aura....Not OP at all. Fair to say it's not really needed. It could be interesing to run a bunch of plasma cannons on dreads and overcharge with outfear of overheat. Overall though - Reroll all hits is just as good.
While true, Techmarines are WAY cheaper. That's something to consider.
footfoe wrote: Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.
They already have a character that does the same thing.
Funny to think about this, but Feirros went from OP as heck to kinda gimpy in such a short time. He only gives one unit BS2+ where as the new forge master (less than half his cost) gives a 6 inch aura of +1 to hit for vehicles and auto repairs three as well for 45 points. If you want to make him really durable as well just put him on a bike with a gorgans chain now snipers wound him on a 5+.
I didn't realize this was an aura....Not OP at all. Fair to say it's not really needed. It could be interesing to run a bunch of plasma cannons on dreads and overcharge with outfear of overheat. Overall though - Reroll all hits is just as good.
While true, Techmarines are WAY cheaper. That's something to consider.
It only affects vehicles though. The majority of vehicals I run are BS 2+ anyways. Executioners are really the only bs3+ vehical I ever run anymore.
bmsattler wrote: Keep in mind that you'd be spending 1-2 CP for that ability, but it is fairly strong. I'm kinda holding off on changing much until Chapter Approved to see if Centurions/Aggressors get nerfed, as they seem like they would benefit the most from healing and rezzing.
It would be rather unfair to see them nerfed only because a support character got optional rules which benefit them. But you never know, it's GW
Likewise unfair to see them priced up because RG and WS can teleport them. And same to Aggressors.
I’m assuming Assault Cents will go up if basically everyone except UM runs them. I dunno about Aggressors unless Cents go up by so much that GW doesn’t want everyone swapping to Aggressors and doing the exact same builds. Everyone says Aggressors are undercosted and too good and then no one takes them. If Cents only go up by like 5pts, then I’d hope Aggressors are unchanged, if Cents went up by more I’d guess Aggressors would need to go up by 2-5 to keep them about even.
There will be 0 cost increases on space marine units. There will only be rules nerfs - just like iron hands.
I like the +1 to hit even on vehicles that are BS2+ to help counteract negative to hits.
Techmarines seem like the big winners. Being able to build your own MoS is nice, and lets Primaris get double prayers. Chief Librarian will be nice for my 32k force w/ no Primaris, but on the other hand 1-3 CP for the upgrade/WLT/Relic is steep.
Big nerfs to Self Sacrifice and Siegebreaker Cohort.
Well, not a surprise, Waacraw lost again. Now that everything is settling down I'm curious to see what Salamanders armies will look like
As a Salamanders player myself I might whittle down my flamestorm aggressors from 6 to 4 or 5 but i dont think this changes too much in terms of how i'll play.
Still planning running 3 flamer invictors and the flamer aggressor squad
Kdash wrote: For me, the biggest thing is their write up note on the Sallies FAQ.
Just another re-iteration of “we do play test… not really :wink:”
yeah it's really suspect how they printed self sacrifice and didn't expect people to "abuse" it. Even the most casual player could think of the combo right away. IIRC it didn't even exclude characters, so you could just have everyone within 6" of an infantry character be untargetable. Like that would be the FIRST thing you think of, it's not some obscure rule interaction.
What are they doing? This is a brand new book that already has substantial rule changes in an FAQ.
Everyone is speaking about IF but what about the CF ?
Do you think IF are better / more competitive ?
I'm not an IF player nor a tournament one, just curious. The CF bonus seemed good to me at first but there are many way to get +1 to hit at the end of the day so idk
CF bonus is just too situational to rely on, and by comparison to what it replaces (ignore benefit of cover, which is in effect an additional +1 AP against most targets, and hard counters certain abilities that trigger from the benefit of cover) it just doesnt do enough.
Quick question for people that use index entries (I never do) Is it still legal to take index entries with SM 2.0 and get all the supplement/codex benefits?
Xenomancers wrote: Apoths are a clear winner for me. Reroll revive checks is massive. Double revives is also really great. 6+ FNP to a unit? Holy crap. This guy does a lot of great things.
I agree! Also the relic for Apoths that gives ++5 to individual models within "1 is really sweet. As an UM player I could easily fit my aggressors around him. Another thing I thought abt is to give the aggressor sgt the master crafted relic and kill him on purpose next to banner as often as possible and then ress with Apoths the turn after.
Xenomancers wrote: Apoths are a clear winner for me. Reroll revive checks is massive. Double revives is also really great. 6+ FNP to a unit? Holy crap. This guy does a lot of great things.
I agree! Also the relic for Apoths that gives ++5 to individual models within "1 is really sweet. As an UM player I could easily fit my aggressors around him. Another thing I thought abt is to give the aggressor sgt the master crafted relic and kill him on purpose next to banner as often as possible and then ress with Apoths the turn after.
That is just mean. Risky though - if the squad gets wiped you are in trouble.
Xenomancers wrote: Apoths are a clear winner for me. Reroll revive checks is massive. Double revives is also really great. 6+ FNP to a unit? Holy crap. This guy does a lot of great things.
I agree! Also the relic for Apoths that gives ++5 to individual models within "1 is really sweet. As an UM player I could easily fit my aggressors around him. Another thing I thought abt is to give the aggressor sgt the master crafted relic and kill him on purpose next to banner as often as possible and then ress with Apoths the turn after.
That is just mean. Risky though - if the squad gets wiped you are in trouble.
Yeah, but you could layer the buffs on a 6man squad abit. Tigurius -1 to hit, tranhuman strat to only wound on +4 when neeeded and ++5 invul from the Apoths makes the aggressors quite tough. Could pull some heat from the rest of your army atleast.
Edit: You can potentionally also ress 2 aggressors every turn if you can make the squad to survive
Xenomancers wrote: Apoths are a clear winner for me. Reroll revive checks is massive. Double revives is also really great. 6+ FNP to a unit? Holy crap. This guy does a lot of great things.
I agree! Also the relic for Apoths that gives ++5 to individual models within "1 is really sweet. As an UM player I could easily fit my aggressors around him. Another thing I thought abt is to give the aggressor sgt the master crafted relic and kill him on purpose next to banner as often as possible and then ress with Apoths the turn after.
That is just mean. Risky though - if the squad gets wiped you are in trouble.
Yeah, but you could layer the buffs on a 6man squad abit. Tigurius -1 to hit, tranhuman strat to only wound on +4 when neeeded and ++5 invul from the Apoths makes the aggressors quite tough. Could pull some heat from the rest of your army atleast.
Edit: You can potentionally also ress 2 aggressors every turn if you can make the squad to survive
You cant ress multiple models in a multiwound unit with one apo since they only come back with 1 wound so you have to heal him.
Not sure if its that good. Its an elite unit you spend 2 extra CP on and you will still need your 4 HQs. The apo cant really do much without the unit by it self so a bit much of all eggs in one basket.
The techmarine for IH on the other hand saves you 2cp from a CM so costs +- 0 in cp and helps you fill out a cheap detachment. Or lets you have 2 chapter masters if that is what you want or combine against hit modifier lists. +1 to hit is better than a CM for bs 3+ vehicles or against eldar for 2+.
The chaplain and techmarine upgrades both look really strong and not hard to get much value out of.
Apothecaries seem in such a weird spot. You look at them and think they should be an auto include in all these Cent armies, and yet no one takes them. I assume cause you can’t recover a wiped out unit and there is no good way to deliver the Apoth with the Cents.
bort wrote: Apothecaries seem in such a weird spot. You look at them and think they should be an auto include in all these Cent armies, and yet no one takes them. I assume cause you can’t recover a wiped out unit and there is no good way to deliver the Apoth with the Cents.
They have a Biker option in the Index. That's pretty darn expensive though as that's never gotten cheaper I'm assuming.
bort wrote: That and due to become Legend status, right?
And we really don't know what Legends is gonna bring to the table just yet. We have some ideas but until we actually get real info it's pointless to speculate.
If I have the choice to spam either infiltrators or incursors, which one is likely to be generally more useful? I had thought mass infiltrators with communications arrays would work well as long as I had the appropriate characters on the board. However, a sample vanguard list that GW had on their site a while back used a larger number of incursors. I feel that the mines and modifier ignoring are too situational, but am I wrong?
Chapter is probably Iron Hands. I know that won't synergise with either, but let's go with it for now.
Bilge Rat wrote: If I have the choice to spam either infiltrators or incursors, which one is likely to be generally more useful? I had thought mass infiltrators with communications arrays would well as long as I had the appropriate characters on the board. However, a sample vanguard list that GW had on their site a while back used a larger number of incursors. I feel that the mines and modifier ignoring are too situational, but am I wrong?
Chapter is probably Iron Hands. I know that won't synergise with either, but let's go with it for now.
While you shouldn't want to spam either of them (They are pricy troops and better used supplementally) I'd probably go for infiltrators. There are just some match-ups that marines can nearly auto-win with properly deployed infiltrators. Incursors have some okay CC potential with the dual combat blades but its not worth the utility of just having a hard counter to melee heavy deepstrike lists (Blood letter bombs, GSC Ambush, RG/WS Assault Centurions, etc.)
Bilge Rat wrote: If I have the choice to spam either infiltrators or incursors, which one is likely to be generally more useful? I had thought mass infiltrators with communications arrays would work well as long as I had the appropriate characters on the board. However, a sample vanguard list that GW had on their site a while back used a larger number of incursors. I feel that the mines and modifier ignoring are too situational, but am I wrong?
Chapter is probably Iron Hands. I know that won't synergise with either, but let's go with it for now.
I keep hearing buzz about combining the Incursor paired combat blades with Gene-Wrought Might and/or Whirlwind of Rage, but I’m not sure how those would interact and I’ve never seen anybody actually try it. You still have to come up with the 6’s on your dice either way.
It seems to me like the points and abilities are pretty well balanced across all three primaris troop choices, so nothing feels like a clear standout in terms of value for cost and whichever you choose is going to be some kind of tradeoff. So maybe a take a mix?
I would say, though, that 10 points feels like a lot to spend for rerolling 1s on a unit that doesn’t have a lot of shots to begin with, especially if you’re buying comms for a bunch of 5-man Infiltrator units rather than one or two 10-man.
It will be really interesting what what happens to legends. Australias biggest tournament in January has already ruled out index so no bike options for us other than captain. Given that index/legends options wont get points readjustments it kind of makes sense to bar them from competitive 40k.
It only affects vehicles though. The majority of vehicals I run are BS 2+ anyways. Executioners are really the only bs3+ vehical I ever run anymore.
Being able to +1 will be really beneficial to airwings that have both stormhawks and stormtalons.
Against flyers before negative mods, stormhawks hit on 0+ with icarus stormcannons and 1+for krak missiles and assault cannons. With rerolls thats going to hurt. And it makes the icarus hit on 3s with ground units.
Tested my Astraeus finally (IH) against a triptide list itc format, rolled well for sure but my list was solid and he gave up turn 3 ahead on points(9-6) but losing units faster and faster with less and less options to score while i still had multiple characters, an untouched astraeus and quad las contemptor, smash cap and scout squad.
Overall the Big Ass is a nice option, but maybe an auto lose against lists that can get 1st turn and deal enough to kill it turn1.
Bilge Rat wrote: If I have the choice to spam either infiltrators or incursors, which one is likely to be generally more useful? I had thought mass infiltrators with communications arrays would well as long as I had the appropriate characters on the board. However, a sample vanguard list that GW had on their site a while back used a larger number of incursors. I feel that the mines and modifier ignoring are too situational, but am I wrong?
Chapter is probably Iron Hands. I know that won't synergise with either, but let's go with it for now.
While you shouldn't want to spam either of them (They are pricy troops and better used supplementally) I'd probably go for infiltrators. There are just some match-ups that marines can nearly auto-win with properly deployed infiltrators. Incursors have some okay CC potential with the dual combat blades but its not worth the utility of just having a hard counter to melee heavy deepstrike lists (Blood letter bombs, GSC Ambush, RG/WS Assault Centurions, etc.)
I want to spam them because incursfiltrators are cool and the cheap units are lame
I do think that it would be fun to completely mess with someone's deep striking.
I keep hearing buzz about combining the Incursor paired combat blades with Gene-Wrought Might and/or Whirlwind of Rage, but I’m not sure how those would interact and I’ve never seen anybody actually try it. You still have to come up with the 6’s on your dice either way.
It seems to me like the points and abilities are pretty well balanced across all three primaris troop choices, so nothing feels like a clear standout in terms of value for cost and whichever you choose is going to be some kind of tradeoff. So maybe a take a mix?
I would say, though, that 10 points feels like a lot to spend for rerolling 1s on a unit that doesn’t have a lot of shots to begin with, especially if you’re buying comms for a bunch of 5-man Infiltrator units rather than one or two 10-man.
The incursors' mêlée buff doesn't really seem like it would help that much to me, whereas re-rolling all the 1s feels like it would be a nice boost. I see what you mean about the added cost of supplying every 5-man squad with an array though - I don't think that I had fully considered that.
Fifty wrote: I am sad. Crusader squads can no longer take both special and heavy at a squad size of five :(
Why would anyone be sad about that? It was silly that THE melee Chapter could get better special/heavy weapon saturation than anyone else and then on top of that had a bonus 3" aura for your custom Chapter Master.
Because you could take a power weapon instead of the heavy weapon, and have special weapon, combi-weapon and two power weapons in the same five man squad, but now you can get only three of those four.
No idea whether that was considered a good option, but I liked it and now I can't do it.
Well, it make you decide whether to gamble jumping on the Chaplain Dreadnought bandwagon or guess that it will get it's points cost reverted and/or Legend status like it should...
Love how even when it's not a separate FW team doing the rules anymore it's still always FW units that have issues.
So, I started a decently-sized collection of space marines back in 6th-7th edition.
At this point, with the ongoing Primaris rollout, and the increasingly confusing setup of the books (to me at least) i was wondering if someone might be able to help guide me regarding what chapter might work best considering the models I have, with maybe a small purchase here or there to round it out. I'm looking for advice so I can find a decent way to play my marines, since they have a good paint job, and my own custom fluff. (Paint Job is Silver/Red, so I'm not locked into anything)
iGuy91 wrote: So, I started a decently-sized collection of space marines back in 6th-7th edition.
At this point, with the ongoing Primaris rollout, and the increasingly confusing setup of the books (to me at least) i was wondering if someone might be able to help guide me regarding what chapter might work best considering the models I have, with maybe a small purchase here or there to round it out. I'm looking for advice so I can find a decent way to play my marines, since they have a good paint job, and my own custom fluff. (Paint Job is Silver/Red, so I'm not locked into anything)
FA 1 Squad of Marine Bikers with Plasma/Power Weapons
HS 3 Predator Tanks with Las/Autocannon
Land Raider Crusader
Devastator Squad
5 Hellblasters
2 Thunderfire Cannons with Crew
DT 3 Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannons
6 Drop Pods
Any advice is appreciated, thanks!
Depends on your style of play really, the new books have opened up a lot of different styles.
Regardless of chapter you'll want to get a librarian and a chaplain. I prefer mine kitted out with jump packs, but that's because I have an aggressive play style and they need to keep up and be on the board. More static styles can get away with standard/primaris variations. Also scouts, I'd recommend going up to three squads of 5 with no upgrades. I have won several games just because the scouts screened T1 charges. They are your speed bumps.
Iron Hands works well with what you have. Give the intercessors the stalker bolt-rifles. Ignore heavy and RR1s will work with almost your entire army and give the bigger vehicles a couple extra wounds.
Imperial fists aren't too bad either if you just want to bolt spam. (give razors HBs, give tacs HBs, Give devsHBs)
Given what you have those two seem the best setup. Really does depends on your playstyle though.
Since mentioning Intercessor loadouts, do many opponents care if you have the correct gun type modeled? I tend to proxy wargear a lot already for casual games, but would a tourney care that you don’t have the Stalker scopes or the auto drums? Most people I see run the cheap ones from the set which are stuck with the rifle option and now the ideal tends to be auto or stalker. I mean, technically they could complain they aren’t correct, but does anyone care enough to look closely that it’s a Stalker scope vs the decorative scope?
iGuy91 wrote: So, I started a decently-sized collection of space marines back in 6th-7th edition.
At this point, with the ongoing Primaris rollout, and the increasingly confusing setup of the books (to me at least) i was wondering if someone might be able to help guide me regarding what chapter might work best considering the models I have, with maybe a small purchase here or there to round it out. I'm looking for advice so I can find a decent way to play my marines, since they have a good paint job, and my own custom fluff. (Paint Job is Silver/Red, so I'm not locked into anything)
FA 1 Squad of Marine Bikers with Plasma/Power Weapons
HS 3 Predator Tanks with Las/Autocannon
Land Raider Crusader
Devastator Squad
5 Hellblasters
2 Thunderfire Cannons with Crew
DT 3 Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannons
6 Drop Pods
Any advice is appreciated, thanks!
when in doubt, Ultramarines. they're one of the most flexable chapters right now (and remember a sucessor chapter can use the "design your own CTs" rules) so if you're not sure how you wanna play they're a good pick
bort wrote: Since mentioning Intercessor loadouts, do many opponents care if you have the correct gun type modeled? I tend to proxy wargear a lot already for casual games, but would a tourney care that you don’t have the Stalker scopes or the auto drums? Most people I see run the cheap ones from the set which are stuck with the rifle option and now the ideal tends to be auto or stalker. I mean, technically they could complain they aren’t correct, but does anyone care enough to look closely that it’s a Stalker scope vs the decorative scope?
In casual games no one should care but I know of tournies starting to enforce bolter types. So ultimately it will be dependent on the TO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone started testing the techmarine master of the forge and +1 to hit for vehicles. Looks to be autopick for vehicle heavy lists.
It appears OPatm so I am waiting for the FAQ to come out which is just as likely to nerf it to one vehicle.
Ideally it would go on techmarine on bike but I am guessing this will be legended sadly.
I've been trying to come up with a broken list using that as Iron Hands successors with Stealthy + Round up on the damage table trait. It would be pretty fething ridiculous.
bort wrote: Since mentioning Intercessor loadouts, do many opponents care if you have the correct gun type modeled? I tend to proxy wargear a lot already for casual games, but would a tourney care that you don’t have the Stalker scopes or the auto drums? Most people I see run the cheap ones from the set which are stuck with the rifle option and now the ideal tends to be auto or stalker. I mean, technically they could complain they aren’t correct, but does anyone care enough to look closely that it’s a Stalker scope vs the decorative scope?
In casual games no one should care but I know of tournies starting to enforce bolter types. So ultimately it will be dependent on the TO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone started testing the techmarine master of the forge and +1 to hit for vehicles. Looks to be autopick for vehicle heavy lists.
It appears OPatm so I am waiting for the FAQ to come out which is just as likely to nerf it to one vehicle.
Ideally it would go on techmarine on bike but I am guessing this will be legended sadly.
I've had three games using the forge father with +1 to hit. I'm running Iron Hands with three redemptors and an invictor with a bunch of infantry. Nothing meta competitive, but fun and cool to play while not being bad by any stretch. The +1 to hit is SUPER good. Like SUUUUPER good. All those vehicles are hitting on 2s on the move re-rolling 1s on top of being Iron hands with all that entails. Running my tech marine as a conversion of Feirros as a generic tech marine and counting him as being on a bike. For 27 points it's worth the upgrade IMO. Goes a long way in protecting him from snipers and adding mobility.
I could see the warlord trait being nerfed to select one unit to get +1 to hit which would make me sad, but I could see the reasoning for it.
Big nerfs to Self Sacrifice and Siegebreaker Cohort.
Well, not a surprise, Waacraw lost again. Now that everything is settling down I'm curious to see what Salamanders armies will look like
Them changing Self Sacrifice because it made your entire army untargeteable is actually a RAW win, Since that was the RAW argument and in recognizing that they changed it
Fires of battle nerf is not good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
COLD CASH wrote: Tested my Astraeus finally (IH) against a triptide list itc format, rolled well for sure but my list was solid and he gave up turn 3 ahead on points(9-6) but losing units faster and faster with less and less options to score while i still had multiple characters, an untouched astraeus and quad las contemptor, smash cap and scout squad.
Overall the Big Ass is a nice option, but maybe an auto lose against lists that can get 1st turn and deal enough to kill it turn1.
Still fun to use.
Big Ass is amazing and with the 100 pt buff i cant wait to play it as successors and have a perpetual 4+ void shield and psysteel up to 3+. ITs a fun unit
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bort wrote: Well, it make you decide whether to gamble jumping on the Chaplain Dreadnought bandwagon or guess that it will get it's points cost reverted and/or Legend status like it should...
Love how even when it's not a separate FW team doing the rules anymore it's still always FW units that have issues.
With the legends update making one of my favorite models obsolete, techmarine with covnersion beamer, im pretty mad about it.
unless you play tournies I'd not worry too much about legends, especially if your group knows this is a favorite conversion of yours I can't imagine them telling you you can't use it
bort wrote: Well, it make you decide whether to gamble jumping on the Chaplain Dreadnought bandwagon or guess that it will get it's points cost reverted and/or Legend status like it should...
Love how even when it's not a separate FW team doing the rules anymore it's still always FW units that have issues.
It's already auto include at 192 points with lascannons. Points drop just makes it more auto include.
iGuy91 wrote: So, I started a decently-sized collection of space marines back in 6th-7th edition.
At this point, with the ongoing Primaris rollout, and the increasingly confusing setup of the books (to me at least) i was wondering if someone might be able to help guide me regarding what chapter might work best considering the models I have, with maybe a small purchase here or there to round it out. I'm looking for advice so I can find a decent way to play my marines, since they have a good paint job, and my own custom fluff. (Paint Job is Silver/Red, so I'm not locked into anything)
FA 1 Squad of Marine Bikers with Plasma/Power Weapons
HS 3 Predator Tanks with Las/Autocannon
Land Raider Crusader
Devastator Squad
5 Hellblasters
2 Thunderfire Cannons with Crew
DT 3 Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannons
6 Drop Pods
Any advice is appreciated, thanks!
when in doubt, Ultramarines. they're one of the most flexable chapters right now (and remember a sucessor chapter can use the "design your own CTs" rules) so if you're not sure how you wanna play they're a good pick
Honestly, Iron hands is the best just whatever chapter not thinking about it. Ultramarines have to really lean into intercessors and aggressors to work, of which there are none in this list of models. Go Iron Hands or Imperial Fists.
Just impulse bought a Sicaran Battle Tank, and while I might use it in my Iron Warriors collection, I was wondering what Loyalist chapter might be a good fit.
I am tempted to do Ultras. I am avoiding Iron Hands. Any particular Chapter tactic/strat that benefits a Sicaran?
Is everyone using aggressors?? I think they are absolutely incredible. Used them at a tournament at the weekend and every time I got first time i put them as far forward as possible then obviously moved and advanced and was still able to fire at close range targets.
I play crimson fists so get exploding sixes for bolt weapons, not only that but use boltstorm from the IF codex and each hit then counts as an extra 2 hits! I've been activating this turn 2 when I'm in tactical doctrine and then firing into juicy enemy targets. With that volume of ap-1 fire I've found that pretty much any unit is wiped out in one turn of shooting.
Another thing in their favour is high toughness and 3 wounds! And finally to top it off dual power fists with 4 attacks each on the first round of combat (5 for the sergeant and another one of within 6 of Pedro Kantor!) They are a bonkers unit and I'm amazed when people don't take them.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Is everyone using aggressors?? I think they are absolutely incredible. Used them at a tournament at the weekend and every time I got first time i put them as far forward as possible then obviously moved and advanced and was still able to fire at close range targets.
I play crimson fists so get exploding sixes for bolt weapons, not only that but use boltstorm from the IF codex and each hit then counts as an extra 2 hits! I've been activating this turn 2 when I'm in tactical doctrine and then firing into juicy enemy targets. With that volume of ap-1 fire I've found that pretty much any unit is wiped out in one turn of shooting.
Another thing in their favour is high toughness and 3 wounds! And finally to top it off dual power fists with 4 attacks each on the first round of combat (5 for the sergeant and another one of within 6 of Pedro Kantor!) They are a bonkers unit and I'm amazed when people don't take them.
In my last game I dropped them from deepstrike and killed a full squad of ork lootas. Charged 9" to a weirdboy, actually tried to reroll my 6 on the charge roll so I could fail it, because realised it took me too close to boys and ork hq blob, well with my luck I rerolled my 6 to a 6. Well my master-crafted sergeant boltstorm gauntlet killed the weirdboy and my unit sustained a lot of ork attacks, think 3-4 died from 100+ attacks.
I used a RG successor with bolter fusillades and ranged marksmen and yeah, those combo nicely. If I would have gotten first turn I would have used master of ambush instead of strike from the shadows (deepstrike strat). Against orks my 2 damage boltstorm gauntlet didn't show it's teeth yet, so still need to experience if it's worth it on the sergeant.
I run centurions + apothecary in my ravenguard force. Give the apothecary the 2nd warlord trait to deploy him and the centurions forward then sit back and watch the sparks fly. Extra points if you make the apothecary be able to heal twice and get the relic for 5++ bubble.
Azuza001 wrote: I run centurions + apothecary in my ravenguard force. Give the apothecary the 2nd warlord trait to deploy him and the centurions forward then sit back and watch the sparks fly. Extra points if you make the apothecary be able to heal twice and get the relic for 5++ bubble.
Centurions are not going to use a 5++ for the most part so I'd call that wasted. Now if you used the Warlord Trait that gave the 6+++, that's a different story.
Cant use the warlord trait, the model already has a warlord trait to allow the deep strike. Well, you could, but it's not a good idea in my opinion to make the apothecary the true warlord and double stack traits on him like that.
Also the 5++ could come up. Some enemy units have AP-4 weapons or greater. For example, multimeltas, knights with their cc weapons (other than feet), harlequins with fusion pistols, fire dragons, marine las cannons in dev doctrine. It can make its self known, even if it's not likely.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Is everyone using aggressors?? I think they are absolutely incredible. Used them at a tournament at the weekend and every time I got first time i put them as far forward as possible then obviously moved and advanced and was still able to fire at close range targets.
I play crimson fists so get exploding sixes for bolt weapons, not only that but use boltstorm from the IF codex and each hit then counts as an extra 2 hits! I've been activating this turn 2 when I'm in tactical doctrine and then firing into juicy enemy targets. With that volume of ap-1 fire I've found that pretty much any unit is wiped out in one turn of shooting.
Another thing in their favour is high toughness and 3 wounds! And finally to top it off dual power fists with 4 attacks each on the first round of combat (5 for the sergeant and another one of within 6 of Pedro Kantor!) They are a bonkers unit and I'm amazed when people don't take them.
Aggressors are essentially the poor man's assault centurions. Both units are great with the new codex. Centurions are tougher and hit harder but aggressors are more mobile and around two thirds the price of a centurion with hurricanes.
If you want a unit that butchers infantry with its shooting and hits hard in melee then both are great options.
In my Raven Guard army I run a Phobos Captain with Chapter Master, Fast and Deadly warlord trait to allow advance+charge, and the Vox for 9 inch bubbles. Then my Warlord is a Chaplain with Master of Ambush, Master of Sanctity, Wise Orator, the +1 to wound speech and the +2 charge speech. I run two squads of 6 assault centurions and two squads of 6 boltstorm aggressors. The ability to advance and shoot and charge makes them surprisingly fast, as does the 6 inch pile in and consolidate.
kaiseric wrote: hi, im new here have a couple question
1. which rifle of intercessor suit for ultramarine?
2. why people choose to run with indomitus crusade?
1. Bolt Rifle in most cases; UM super doctrine allows you to double-tap at full range even if you moved (provided you don't advance).
2. Not sure I understand the question, can you elaborate?
kaiseric wrote: hi, im new here have a couple question
1. which rifle of intercessor suit for ultramarine?
2. why people choose to run with indomitus crusade?
1. Bolt Rifle in most cases; UM super doctrine allows you to double-tap at full range even if you moved (provided you don't advance).
2. Not sure I understand the question, can you elaborate?
thank you for answer my question.
i mean special detachment name "indomitus crusader" in vigilus defiant book.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: No point as that detachment thing was made illegal with the new codex.
No it wasn't. The veteran intercessor strats were replaced by what is in the codex. You can still use the rest.
The warlord trait would be my guess for why people still use it. If you are running heavy on Intercessors in one detachment it may be worth it.
Huh, I thought the FAQ said it was completely illegal. My apologies for spreading incorrect information.
Yeah the Warlord Trait is tasty. Making your dudes get THAT many benefits is amazing for Intercessors. They're really some of the best troops in the game.
Does anyone else find it weird that GW hasn't come out with an answer to the Black Templar issue yet? The fact that the imperial fist supplement says all fist successors get these rules (which the templars are) and faith and fury gave templars additional rules (which was basically their own supplement) but there was nothing saying templars dont get the imperial fist stuff? Because right now I am still waiting for someone to try the RAW argument that templars get the imperial fist super doctrine while in heavy doctrine and templar super doctrine while in assault doctrine. If that's truly how gw wants templars to be played.... oh my....
Default SBs and PF, maybe sprinkle in a CF or two. Then support them with a JP Chaplain that gives canticles of hate and preferably use a chapter that wants to get into tactical doctrine.
Terminators are not good mainline units as they're not per point durable enough to sustain straight up hits from enemy heavy hitters, so your going to want to use them in small squads as disruption units. Getting stuck in where the opponent doesn't want them, or can't afford to dedicate resources to them.
Vilehydra wrote: Default SBs and PF, maybe sprinkle in a CF or two. Then support them with a JP Chaplain that gives canticles of hate and preferably use a chapter that wants to get into tactical doctrine.
Terminators are not good mainline units as they're not per point durable enough to sustain straight up hits from enemy heavy hitters, so your going to want to use them in small squads as disruption units. Getting stuck in where the opponent doesn't want them, or can't afford to dedicate resources to them.
Vilehydra wrote: Default SBs and PF, maybe sprinkle in a CF or two. Then support them with a JP Chaplain that gives canticles of hate and preferably use a chapter that wants to get into tactical doctrine.
Terminators are not good mainline units as they're not per point durable enough to sustain straight up hits from enemy heavy hitters, so your going to want to use them in small squads as disruption units. Getting stuck in where the opponent doesn't want them, or can't afford to dedicate resources to them.
Right, I was thinking of giving them combi plas
You cant. Regular terms for loyalists cant take combi plasma like chaos terms or space wolf terms.
Vilehydra wrote: Default SBs and PF, maybe sprinkle in a CF or two. Then support them with a JP Chaplain that gives canticles of hate and preferably use a chapter that wants to get into tactical doctrine.
Terminators are not good mainline units as they're not per point durable enough to sustain straight up hits from enemy heavy hitters, so your going to want to use them in small squads as disruption units. Getting stuck in where the opponent doesn't want them, or can't afford to dedicate resources to them.
Right, I was thinking of giving them combi plas
You cant. Regular terms for loyalists cant take combi plasma like chaos terms or space wolf terms.
Huh, it does seem like you can though in the Codex
How do you figure? There is no options in the codex for terminators to take any combi weapons. Powerfists to chainfists, 1 in every 5 can get a heavy weapon. The only loyalist terms that can do it are space wolf ones.
Thinking of adding around 500pts of space marines to a custodes army (supported by eversor and 2x dakka armigers). Would you guys have any suggestions to build a bolt on force for ranged anti-infantry?
whirlwindstruggle wrote: Thinking of adding around 500pts of space marines to a custodes army (supported by eversor and 2x dakka armigers). Would you guys have any suggestions to build a bolt on force for ranged anti-infantry?
Depends on what infantry you want to deal with but
Imp fist - 15 intercessors and a bare captain/LT combo will run you ~389 points. Depending on how the rest of your army plays and what style of infantry your hunting you can choose to equip the intercessors with Bolt rifles for 30 S4 AP1 D1 shots at doubletap (which they get for standing still) or the stalker heavy bolt rifle for 15 heavy S4 AP2 D2 shot at 36". You could also spend an extra 15 to give all the intercessors ABRs (Battlescribe says their 5 points per ABR, but I doublechecked the book and it says 1 point per ABR) to give the intercessors 45 Assault S4 AP0 D1 at 24.
If your worried about hordes, I'd recommend using the ABRs and getting your intercessors stuck in. Between shooting and CC they put out 96 S4 AP0 D1 attacks without counting bolter explosions (if you give the SGTs chainswords)
If your worried about other primaris or elite infantry, I'd recommend the stalker bolt rifle, your going to be far less mobile but it is far deadly to enemy primaris/elite units
Bolt rifles are the all rounders, they can threaten most things with the ability to double the amount of shots for some CP
You can then use the extra points to trick out your LT/Captain if you have nowhere else to spend them (THs cost 40, but are worth it on captains and LTs who both have WS2 base and swing a combined 9 times first round of combat). Its a battalion so it brings 5 CP that you could spend on Making the Captain a Chaptermaster(2CP, reroll ALL hits) or Veteran intercessors (1 Cp per, an extra attack per intercessor in CC) or the various SM strats.
Another Option is Imp fist 3 x 5 Dev squads carrying 4 HBs each with the same LT/Captain combo. For 449 points your putting out 36 Heavy Str5 AP1 1D shots at 36" 9 of which are going to be BS2 because of your signum. This option is far more static, and doesn't give you as much CP as the first one, but it still puts out a good quantity of moderate quality shots.
Also In case your not aware Imp Fist chapter tactics are - Unmodified 6's to hit with bolt weapons count as an additional hit, and they ignore cover. Which makes them good for boltspam.
I recommended the base Captain/LT combo because it provides a simple straight-forward benefit, but you could also swap out for other HQ's like chaplains for litanies or Librarians for psychic support (Depending on what else you have in the army a Jetpack libby with nullzone can be an excellent asset)
I strongly recommend a squad of boltstrom gauntlet Aggressors.222 points for a squad of 6 gives you 18 wounds, T5, either the ability to advance and shoot as normal or stand still and double shoot for over a hundred shots, and everyone has a power fist and 3 attacks base. Their only real drawback is that they aren't Troops.
bmsattler wrote: I strongly recommend a squad of boltstrom gauntlet Aggressors.222 points for a squad of 6 gives you 18 wounds, T5, either the ability to advance and shoot as normal or stand still and double shoot for over a hundred shots, and everyone has a power fist and 3 attacks base. Their only real drawback is that they aren't Troops.
bmsattler wrote: I strongly recommend a squad of boltstrom gauntlet Aggressors.222 points for a squad of 6 gives you 18 wounds, T5, either the ability to advance and shoot as normal or stand still and double shoot for over a hundred shots, and everyone has a power fist and 3 attacks base. Their only real drawback is that they aren't Troops.
whirlwindstruggle wrote: Thinking of adding around 500pts of space marines to a custodes army (supported by eversor and 2x dakka armigers). Would you guys have any suggestions to build a bolt on force for ranged anti-infantry?
This is a plug-in detachment used by Mani Cheema at Glasshammer:
Imperial Fists Spearhead
Captain with the Eye of Hypnoth
3 thunderfire cannons
3 whirlwinds with vengeance launchers
More than 500 points, but you can cut back to fewer artillery pieces and it'll still be effective.
-IF means that you ignore cover
-Eye of Hypnoth makes your captain function like a lieutenant too
-Thunderfire cannons kill and/or slow masses of infantry without needing LoS -Vengeance whirlwinds kill 2-wound models like intercessors, and also are excellent counterbattery fire against the opponent's Thunderfire Cannons
-Indirect fire means you can completely hide the detachment out of LoS, and it doesn't add vulnerability to your list.
Does the Blood Angel's 'Hero of the Chapter' strategim count as a different one than the 'Hero of the Chapter' strategim listed in the Space Marine codex?
My Space Marine collection is minimal (sold off most of my 7th edition army) so it's basically Primaris Killteam units (intercessors and reivers), and Scouts.
Debating Raven Guard or Blood Angels (for Death Company Intercessors), as a Chapter, and awaiting the next Dark Angel update (since mostly Primaris would be a unique theme, chapter initiates that know nothing of the Fallen). I would start adding mostly Primaris (new) you its and avoiding old marines.
Any suggestions? This post started as a question on who had the best Scouts and Intercessor core.
Nightlord1987 wrote: My Space Marine collection is minimal (sold off most of my 7th edition army) so it's basically Primaris Killteam units (intercessors and reivers), and Scouts.
Debating Raven Guard or Blood Angels (for Death Company Intercessors), as a Chapter, and awaiting the next Dark Angel update (since mostly Primaris would be a unique theme, chapter initiates that know nothing of the Fallen). I would start adding mostly Primaris (new) you its and avoiding old marines.
Any suggestions? This post started as a question on who had the best Scouts and Intercessor core.
Any thoughts?
I’d say Raven Guard. Scouts with camo cloaks get +2 to their save while standing in the open if they’re more than 12” with RG and it can make all SMs pretty hard to dislodge
BA have like 0 buffs that help primaris right now. Its almost all about the old marines with jump packs. If you dont use them Jump Packs ANY other chapter will be better for you. You could choose primary chapter and successor traits at random and get a stronger force than going BA 100% of the time. Not kidding or over exaggerating at all.
So a ravenguard successor is what I would pick if you want to be aggressive.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: No point as that detachment thing was made illegal with the new codex.
No it wasn't. The veteran intercessor strats were replaced by what is in the codex. You can still use the rest.
The warlord trait would be my guess for why people still use it. If you are running heavy on Intercessors in one detachment it may be worth it.
Huh, I thought the FAQ said it was completely illegal. My apologies for spreading incorrect information.
Yeah the Warlord Trait is tasty. Making your dudes get THAT many benefits is amazing for Intercessors. They're really some of the best troops in the game.
Mainly you are doing it for the warlord trait yeah. It also affects a few other units...for some reason it affects inceptors too. You can pick up ether the CF or Ironhands CT for a turn (if it works the way I think it does as in the get the new chapter tactics it is pretty huge). Ultras using team over watch strat while hitting on 5's with intercessors is massive and you get a 6+ FNP. While the CF ability would be massive for any other intercessors to have for a turn in any army. Basically its 2 CP to give a heavy base of intercessors a big benefit. Could be worth it. I have never done it as 2 CP could probably be used better. I can get a 6+ FNP Aura from an Apoth now for 1 CP...I think that is better.
whirlwindstruggle wrote: Thinking of adding around 500pts of space marines to a custodes army (supported by eversor and 2x dakka armigers). Would you guys have any suggestions to build a bolt on force for ranged anti-infantry?
This is a plug-in detachment used by Mani Cheema at Glasshammer:
Imperial Fists Spearhead
Captain with the Eye of Hypnoth
3 thunderfire cannons
3 whirlwinds with vengeance launchers
More than 500 points, but you can cut back to fewer artillery pieces and it'll still be effective.
-IF means that you ignore cover
-Eye of Hypnoth makes your captain function like a lieutenant too
-Thunderfire cannons kill and/or slow masses of infantry without needing LoS -Vengeance whirlwinds kill 2-wound models like intercessors, and also are excellent counterbattery fire against the opponent's Thunderfire Cannons
-Indirect fire means you can completely hide the detachment out of LoS, and it doesn't add vulnerability to your list.
Or, an even more powergamery version making the rounds lately:
Iron Hands Spearhead
Chaplain Dread with all lascannons
Mortis Dread with all lascannons
2 Thunderfire Cannons
Use the strat to make the mortis dread a character, and you get two untargetable dreads.
whirlwindstruggle wrote: Thinking of adding around 500pts of space marines to a custodes army (supported by eversor and 2x dakka armigers). Would you guys have any suggestions to build a bolt on force for ranged anti-infantry?
This is a plug-in detachment used by Mani Cheema at Glasshammer:
Imperial Fists Spearhead
Captain with the Eye of Hypnoth
3 thunderfire cannons
3 whirlwinds with vengeance launchers
More than 500 points, but you can cut back to fewer artillery pieces and it'll still be effective.
-IF means that you ignore cover
-Eye of Hypnoth makes your captain function like a lieutenant too
-Thunderfire cannons kill and/or slow masses of infantry without needing LoS -Vengeance whirlwinds kill 2-wound models like intercessors, and also are excellent counterbattery fire against the opponent's Thunderfire Cannons
-Indirect fire means you can completely hide the detachment out of LoS, and it doesn't add vulnerability to your list.
Or, an even more powergamery version making the rounds lately:
Iron Hands Spearhead
Chaplain Dread with all lascannons
Mortis Dread with all lascannons
2 Thunderfire Cannons
Use the strat to make the mortis dread a character, and you get two untargetable dreads.
I disagree it's more power gamey. You're actually worse off since the Custodes are gonna want more of the anti-horde. For that, I would say to lose the Whirlwinds as the TFCs should be enough, and buy Infiltrators to really help with footprint for Custodes.
whirlwindstruggle wrote: Thinking of adding around 500pts of space marines to a custodes army (supported by eversor and 2x dakka armigers). Would you guys have any suggestions to build a bolt on force for ranged anti-infantry?
This is a plug-in detachment used by Mani Cheema at Glasshammer:
Imperial Fists Spearhead
Captain with the Eye of Hypnoth
3 thunderfire cannons
3 whirlwinds with vengeance launchers
More than 500 points, but you can cut back to fewer artillery pieces and it'll still be effective.
-IF means that you ignore cover
-Eye of Hypnoth makes your captain function like a lieutenant too
-Thunderfire cannons kill and/or slow masses of infantry without needing LoS -Vengeance whirlwinds kill 2-wound models like intercessors, and also are excellent counterbattery fire against the opponent's Thunderfire Cannons
-Indirect fire means you can completely hide the detachment out of LoS, and it doesn't add vulnerability to your list.
Or, an even more powergamery version making the rounds lately:
Iron Hands Spearhead
Chaplain Dread with all lascannons
Mortis Dread with all lascannons
2 Thunderfire Cannons
Use the strat to make the mortis dread a character, and you get two untargetable dreads.
I disagree it's more power gamey. You're actually worse off since the Custodes are gonna want more of the anti-horde. For that, I would say to lose the Whirlwinds as the TFCs should be enough, and buy Infiltrators to really help with footprint for Custodes.
More or less is debatable. No question that these are both VERY powergamey. Almost to the extent it should be banned lol.
Sterling191 wrote: "Playing units from a legal rulebook should be banned".
Xeno starting out 2020 with little change I see.
Ynnari was legal and obviously needed to be changed or banned. This is no different. It's annoying because now I can't play my marines for a different reason. Such a strong stigma of being super OP because of these 2 factions people wont even play against my Ultras if they have a choice.
Ynnari was legal and obviously needed to be changed or banned. This is no different. It's annoying because now I can't play my marines for a different reason. Such a strong stigma of being super OP because of these 2 factions people wont even play against my Ultras if they have a choice.
Demonstrate you're not a dick with your lists and people will play you, especially in a casual environment. Its not difficult.
Ynnari was legal and obviously needed to be changed or banned. This is no different. It's annoying because now I can't play my marines for a different reason. Such a strong stigma of being super OP because of these 2 factions people wont even play against my Ultras if they have a choice.
Demonstrate you're not a dick with your lists and people will play you, especially in a casual environment. Its not difficult.
It's not casual to the extent that people are dumbing down their lists against each other - it's just not tournaments. I'd go back to the day of SM being one of the worst armies in an instant compared to this...IF and IH are gamebreaking - realistically I am dumbing down my list already by not playing these OP factions.
They're not as strong as Iron Hands, for instance, but hell, Space Marines sans supplements STILL blow a lot of Dexes out of the water.
They are more than capable and as successors with +3" range are QUITE deadly after turn 2 with agressors and bolt rifles. All marines have access to AP-4 lascannons too which RR all hits rr 1's and MOA as well. Tau players and eldar players complaining in game is mainly coming from the ass whoopings they have gotten from IH and IF though. These armies are more than capable of defeating Ultramarines.
Ynnari was legal and obviously needed to be changed or banned. This is no different. It's annoying because now I can't play my marines for a different reason. Such a strong stigma of being super OP because of these 2 factions people wont even play against my Ultras if they have a choice.
Demonstrate you're not a dick with your lists and people will play you, especially in a casual environment. Its not difficult.
So much this. ^
Have people forgotten how to write lists where you don't squeeze the most points efficiency out of every model you possibly can? Take tactical marines in rhinos, take assault marines, take land speeders and standard dreadnoughts. Create your own captain with a weird loadout and a story.
When you stop worrying about writing a list that has the easiest path to victory and start writing lists that give each player a decent chance at victory, you're taking off some pretty damn heavy shackles man. You can have weaknesses. It's okay.
Ynnari was legal and obviously needed to be changed or banned. This is no different. It's annoying because now I can't play my marines for a different reason. Such a strong stigma of being super OP because of these 2 factions people wont even play against my Ultras if they have a choice.
Demonstrate you're not a dick with your lists and people will play you, especially in a casual environment. Its not difficult.
So much this. ^
Have people forgotten how to write lists where you don't squeeze the most points efficiency out of every model you possibly can? Take tactical marines in rhinos, take assault marines, take land speeders and standard dreadnoughts. Create your own captain with a weird loadout and a story.
When you stop worrying about writing a list that has the easiest path to victory and start writing lists that give each player a decent chance at victory, you're taking off some pretty damn heavy shackles man. You can have weaknesses. It's okay.
It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
The most efficient tactics and units and methods in what context? Why is it that your context is the only one that is supposedly legitimate?
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
The most efficient tactics and units and methods in what context? Why is it that your context is the only one that is supposedly legitimate?
If the advice is for "casual" there's no point for discussion because casual means you don't actually care whether or not you have a functioning list.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
The most efficient tactics and units and methods in what context? Why is it that your context is the only one that is supposedly legitimate?
If the advice is for "casual" there's no point for discussion because casual means you don't actually care whether or not you have a functioning list.
No it doesn't. I can set a self-imposed limit to build a specific archetype, knowing full well that it is sub-optimal, and still strive to make it as functional as possible within the given parameters.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
The most efficient tactics and units and methods in what context? Why is it that your context is the only one that is supposedly legitimate?
If the advice is for "casual" there's no point for discussion because casual means you don't actually care whether or not you have a functioning list.
No it doesn't. I can set a self-imposed limit to build a specific archetype, knowing full well that it is sub-optimal, and still strive to make it as functional as possible within the given parameters.
Your self-imposed rules have nothing to do with the game.
this is a tactics thread, not a list building thread. personally it gets a bit silly when every tactics thread consists of "take X Y and Z"
that's not tactics. these threads would be MUCH more intreasting if someone posted a list and said "ok what can I do to make this perform as well as possiable?"
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
The most efficient tactics and units and methods in what context? Why is it that your context is the only one that is supposedly legitimate?
If the advice is for "casual" there's no point for discussion because casual means you don't actually care whether or not you have a functioning list.
No it doesn't. I can set a self-imposed limit to build a specific archetype, knowing full well that it is sub-optimal, and still strive to make it as functional as possible within the given parameters.
Your self-imposed rules have nothing to do with the game.
Yes they do. There is more to 40k than just pick-up games with strangers.
Kryddbov wrote: Are there any ways you can buff the nummer of wounds a techmarine heals each turn?
Like a relic, artefact of stratagem perhaps?
As of Faith and Fury for 1cp you can make a techmarine a master of the forge so he can heal 3 wounds instead of d3. There are also some pretty good warlord traits you can give to buff nearby vehicles
Kryddbov wrote: Are there any ways you can buff the nummer of wounds a techmarine heals each turn?
Like a relic, artefact of stratagem perhaps?
As of Faith and Fury for 1cp you can make a techmarine a master of the forge so he can heal 3 wounds instead of d3. There are also some pretty good warlord traits you can give to buff nearby vehicles
There's also an Iron Hands strat that allows you to repair twice in the same turn, including the same model.
Kryddbov wrote: Are there any ways you can buff the nummer of wounds a techmarine heals each turn?
Like a relic, artefact of stratagem perhaps?
As of Faith and Fury for 1cp you can make a techmarine a master of the forge so he can heal 3 wounds instead of d3. There are also some pretty good warlord traits you can give to buff nearby vehicles
There's also an Iron Hands strat that allows you to repair twice in the same turn, including the same model.
Not any more I'm afraid. Was one of the casualties of their FAQ nerf...
Kryddbov wrote: Are there any ways you can buff the nummer of wounds a techmarine heals each turn?
Like a relic, artefact of stratagem perhaps?
As of Faith and Fury for 1cp you can make a techmarine a master of the forge so he can heal 3 wounds instead of d3. There are also some pretty good warlord traits you can give to buff nearby vehicles
There's also an Iron Hands strat that allows you to repair twice in the same turn, including the same model.
Not any more I'm afraid. Was one of the casualties of their FAQ nerf...
Which is bizarre as that's not even broken due to most people focus firing to kill something anyway. It was just something people wanted to complain about for the sake of complaining.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
The most efficient tactics and units and methods in what context? Why is it that your context is the only one that is supposedly legitimate?
If the advice is for "casual" there's no point for discussion because casual means you don't actually care whether or not you have a functioning list.
No it doesn't. I can set a self-imposed limit to build a specific archetype, knowing full well that it is sub-optimal, and still strive to make it as functional as possible within the given parameters.
Your self-imposed rules have nothing to do with the game.
Yes they do. There is more to 40k than just pick-up games with strangers.
Not when it comes to Tactica discussion. Someone saying "Help me but I don't want to do stuff" means they're not really accepting advice they're not ready to hear. Why waste the time to do that here?
If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
Different people play the game for different reasons, and still need help and advice.
“I love unit XX and want to use it, what’s the best way” is a legitimate question deserving of an answer. If you want to preface your answer with “Unit YY does the job better, but if you want to use XX...” that’s fine. Letting people know they are using a sub-optimal choice is OK. Not every list is going to be top-table tournament quality. For many of us, that’s acceptable. I’d rather play with units I love then ones I don’t. I acknowledge that it’s not the “right” call from a pure win/power POV. But odds are, the people I play against are also making similar sacrifices in their lists, so everyone ends up balanced.
"Bin your army/dreams and play the FOTM" is not helpful, even if it might let people win more. They want to win with their army, not some netlist.
BrianDavion wrote: this is a tactics thread, not a list building thread. personally it gets a bit silly when every tactics thread consists of "take X Y and Z"
that's not tactics. these threads would be MUCH more intreasting if someone posted a list and said "ok what can I do to make this perform as well as possiable?"
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
Different people play the game for different reasons, and still need help and advice.
“I love unit XX and want to use it, what’s the best way” is a legitimate question deserving of an answer. If you want to preface your answer with “Unit YY does the job better, but if you want to use XX...” that’s fine. Letting people know they are using a sub-optimal choice is OK. Not every list is going to be top-table tournament quality. For many of us, that’s acceptable. I’d rather play with units I love then ones I don’t. I acknowledge that it’s not the “right” call from a pure win/power POV. But odds are, the people I play against are also making similar sacrifices in their lists, so everyone ends up balanced.
"Bin your army/dreams and play the FOTM" is not helpful, even if it might let people win more. They want to win with their army, not some netlist.
Terms like "netlist" and "flavor of the month" are scrub mentalities. Self imposed limits are not a concern for Tactics discussion, as otherwise everything is just happy happy joy joy and use whatever you want. That's not discussion, that's just saying "I wanna use this" and replying "k cool".
There IS a middle ground between 'use whatever who cares' and 'play the single strongest combination of units around'. That middle ground encompasses the vast majority of 40k players.
People can be limited by what models they own (or which ones they wish to purchase due to the looks of the model).
People can choose to try and optimise a certain playstyle, even if it isn't currently top tier to see what they can achieve with certain units. People who choose to play 'primaris marines only' are a very common example of this. It can be fun and rewarding to try and solve the tactical puzzle of how to use a certain subset of units to their highest potential.
People can be limited by their understanding of the game. It might be better to advise a new player to use a simple and effective strategy rather than a complex one (e.g. genestealer cults are a powerful army but a hard one to master).
I'm a competitive tournament player myself. But when giving advice it's important to tailor it to the person in question and what units or strategies they would actually want to (or be able to) use.
Different people play the game for different reasons, and still need help and advice.
“I love unit XX and want to use it, what’s the best way” is a legitimate question deserving of an answer. If you want to preface your answer with “Unit YY does the job better, but if you want to use XX...” that’s fine. Letting people know they are using a sub-optimal choice is OK. Not every list is going to be top-table tournament quality. For many of us, that’s acceptable. I’d rather play with units I love then ones I don’t. I acknowledge that it’s not the “right” call from a pure win/power POV. But odds are, the people I play against are also making similar sacrifices in their lists, so everyone ends up balanced.
"Bin your army/dreams and play the FOTM" is not helpful, even if it might let people win more. They want to win with their army, not some netlist.
Terms like "netlist" and "flavor of the month" are scrub mentalities. Self imposed limits are not a concern for Tactics discussion, as otherwise everything is just happy happy joy joy and use whatever you want. That's not discussion, that's just saying "I wanna use this" and replying "k cool".
Spoiler:
I respectfully disagree.
There is a wide range of tactics to discuss, from bleeding edge tournament lists to casual floorhammer. Someone might want to improve themselves at their local level without going full-throttle competitive. As a community, we should try to help out. If you want to excuse yourself from discussing “scrub” lists and tactics feel free; I generally avoid putting in my two cents when people are discussing tournament lists, as I lack experience there.
40k is played a many different levels, as we should be accommodating to that. If people ask questions in a framework, we should answer within that framework. You might choose to view everything though the lens of top-table ITC events, but not everyone does.
We can educate people on what works, specific combos, mathhammer, and other such things to improve their game. If they listen, that’s on them. If they choose to ignore it, they have their reasons. They might not want to use the best unit because they think it looks ugly. They might be willing to make the sacrifice in power, but want advice on what’s second best. Do we just ignore them? If a crappy unit is what drew them to the game, we should try to help them get the most out of it (even if it’s not much).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
So? Your insistence on only being allowed to discuss the kind of tactics you care about is a parameter you've created yourself as well.
Funnily enough, all things else equal it takes a better player to win with a weaker unit choice, not a worse one. You're seemingly completely incapable of understanding the fact that someone might completely understand that a unit is sub-par but still want to make it as good as possible. Making a sub-par unit perform as well as possible is a completely valid way of making yourself better at the game.
BrianDavion wrote: this is a tactics thread, not a list building thread. personally it gets a bit silly when every tactics thread consists of "take X Y and Z"
that's not tactics. these threads would be MUCH more intreasting if someone posted a list and said "ok what can I do to make this perform as well as possiable?"
This sounds like a great idea to me.
Do you have a list to share?
Sure lemme toss out a list I'm pondering Bringing
Ultramarines Battlaion (2000 points)
HQs:
Primaris Captain with Master Crafted Stalker Boltrifle and power sword
Phobos Libby
Troops
4 x5 intercessor squads with Bolt Rifles (sergent has a chainsword cause duh!)
Elites:
2 Dakka Agressor Squads
and a redemptor Dread with heavy gatling canon, gatling canon, and stormbolters,
Heavy Support:
1 Squad Eliminators (sergent has the bolt carbine)
1 squad Hellblasters (5 man, rapid rife plasma guns)
Repulsor Executioner (with Heavy Laser Destroyer, Icarus Rocket Pod, Ironhail heavy stubber)
Dedicated Transports:
2 Impulsors each with stormbolters, Ironhail heavy stubber, and shield Dome
Repulsor: with Ironhail heavy stubber, twin heavy Bolter, Heavy Onslaught gatling Canon, Onsalught Gatling Canon, 3 stormbolters, and 2 fragstorm grenade launchers.
alright folks, with this specific list, how can I get the best performance out of it? what stragtiugums should I use and when? what infantry should go in what transport, etc? what should my warlord traits, relics and psyker pwoers be?
I know you said "no listbuilding", but combining two of the Intercessor squads to a 10-man squad means you can get more oomph out of the Rapid Fire stratagem. Since it's Ultramarines being on foot isn't going to matter that much for Bolter Discipline. That'd also let you run the other two Intercessor squads and the Hellblasters in the transports. Turn the Captain into a Chapter Master, give him the vox Espiritum for bigger aura range. Adept of the Codex on something for CP regeneration since you're not gonna have a lot of them.
The Libby is limited in efficiency since a bunch of the Obscuration powers only work on <PHOBOS> units. Tenebrous Curse and something else I guess.
I haven't got the UM supplement, so there's probably some stuff in there that I'm missing.
DoomMouse wrote: There IS a middle ground between 'use whatever who cares' and 'play the single strongest combination of units around'. That middle ground encompasses the vast majority of 40k players.
People can be limited by what models they own (or which ones they wish to purchase due to the looks of the model).
People can choose to try and optimise a certain playstyle, even if it isn't currently top tier to see what they can achieve with certain units. People who choose to play 'primaris marines only' are a very common example of this. It can be fun and rewarding to try and solve the tactical puzzle of how to use a certain subset of units to their highest potential.
People can be limited by their understanding of the game. It might be better to advise a new player to use a simple and effective strategy rather than a complex one (e.g. genestealer cults are a powerful army but a hard one to master).
I'm a competitive tournament player myself. But when giving advice it's important to tailor it to the person in question and what units or strategies they would actually want to (or be able to) use.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
False. In a tactics thread you can and should discuss tactics and uses of units.
Nowhere does it say you absolutely must discuss only the most efficient ones. If somebody comes here wanting to make their assault Terminators work as best as they can, then this is the thread where that discussion can and should occur in. There's ample space to discuss the proper tactical application of those units even if they're notoriously inefficient.
Shouting at people because they dare to select units and lists that aren't ITCHammer meta defining even when tactics discussion can still be had is the epitome of childish nerdrage bs. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am anyway.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
False. In a tactics thread you can and should discuss tactics and uses of units.
Nowhere does it say you absolutely must discuss only the most efficient ones. If somebody comes here wanting to make their assault Terminators work as best as they can, then this is the thread where that discussion can and should occur in. There's ample space to discuss the proper tactical application of those units even if they're notoriously inefficient.
Shouting at people because they dare to select units and lists that aren't ITCHammer meta defining even when tactics discussion can still be had is the epitome of childish nerdrage bs. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am anyway.
Not playing ITC doesn't magically make bad units any good. Sorry but it's true. Also this game isn't so complex that it garners much discussion to talk about those bad units, nor do we ever really discover anything new for those units a couple of months after a codex being dropped.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
So? Your insistence on only being allowed to discuss the kind of tactics you care about is a parameter you've created yourself as well.
Funnily enough, all things else equal it takes a better player to win with a weaker unit choice, not a worse one. You're seemingly completely incapable of understanding the fact that someone might completely understand that a unit is sub-par but still want to make it as good as possible. Making a sub-par unit perform as well as possible is a completely valid way of making yourself better at the game.
Except I didn't create any artificial parameters. The whole game is available, surprise surprise. So yeah it's a waste of time to talk about Assault Marines, Tactical Terminators, Predators, etc.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I know you said "no listbuilding", but combining two of the Intercessor squads to a 10-man squad means you can get more oomph out of the Rapid Fire stratagem. Since it's Ultramarines being on foot isn't going to matter that much for Bolter Discipline. That'd also let you run the other two Intercessor squads and the Hellblasters in the transports. Turn the Captain into a Chapter Master, give him the vox Espiritum for bigger aura range. Adept of the Codex on something for CP regeneration since you're not gonna have a lot of them.
The Libby is limited in efficiency since a bunch of the Obscuration powers only work on <PHOBOS> units. Tenebrous Curse and something else I guess.
I haven't got the UM supplement, so there's probably some stuff in there that I'm missing.
not a bad idea re the intercessors yeah (it's list optimization yes but it's acceptable for this exercise as you're not discussing . as for the Libby obscuration is of limtied use yes, but I can opt to sue the Ultramarines powers so there's that. truthfully I just like the Phobos Libby model eneugh that I'll make it work even though I'm proably better just using a normal libby.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
False. In a tactics thread you can and should discuss tactics and uses of units.
Nowhere does it say you absolutely must discuss only the most efficient ones. If somebody comes here wanting to make their assault Terminators work as best as they can, then this is the thread where that discussion can and should occur in. There's ample space to discuss the proper tactical application of those units even if they're notoriously inefficient.
Shouting at people because they dare to select units and lists that aren't ITCHammer meta defining even when tactics discussion can still be had is the epitome of childish nerdrage bs. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am anyway.
Not playing ITC doesn't magically make bad units any good. Sorry but it's true. Also this game isn't so complex that it garners much discussion to talk about those bad units, nor do we ever really discover anything new for those units a couple of months after a codex being dropped.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
So? Your insistence on only being allowed to discuss the kind of tactics you care about is a parameter you've created yourself as well.
Funnily enough, all things else equal it takes a better player to win with a weaker unit choice, not a worse one. You're seemingly completely incapable of understanding the fact that someone might completely understand that a unit is sub-par but still want to make it as good as possible. Making a sub-par unit perform as well as possible is a completely valid way of making yourself better at the game.
Except I didn't create any artificial parameters. The whole game is available, surprise surprise. So yeah it's a waste of time to talk about Assault Marines, Tactical Terminators, Predators, etc.
except if someone HAS assault marines, terrminators and predators they'll want advise on how to use them, not be told "ohh buy a bunch of new stuff" not everyone has the money to drop on an entire new list every month.
godardc wrote: Has anyone tried IH or UM land speeder (with ML ?) ? Even without any penalty to hit, looks awfully overcoated...
I’ve not put mine on the table in a while, but flew my TML/HB speeders a lot in previous editions. 8th was not kind to them. Regaining the ability to move and fire again is a huge boon to them, but do you need to? You pay a lot for the mobility on a platform that’s not that sturdy. For a few more points you can get a Dev squad, which is easier to hide in cover, gets a signum, can take advantage of cherubs/strats, etc. The Impulsor is a little slower, only gets one shot out of its ML (but gets an AA option), but has significantly more toughness and wounds. Plus transport.
The speeder gives a mix of firepower and movement. The problem is most of the time you want to castle up under auras with your guns, so getting the most out of both aspects is going to be tough. If you play on a table with a lot of terrain, the mobility can be key. Speeders do offer a reasonable amount of fire, and are fast enough to relocate when needed. But they are fragile and a little overpriced. They fill a niche, but it’s one that’s very table/opponent dependent.
They are not useless, but I would not recommend them in a vacuum.
BrianDavion wrote: this is a tactics thread, not a list building thread. personally it gets a bit silly when every tactics thread consists of "take X Y and Z"
that's not tactics. these threads would be MUCH more intreasting if someone posted a list and said "ok what can I do to make this perform as well as possiable?"
HQs:
Primaris Captain with Master Crafted Stalker Boltrifle and power sword
Phobos Libby
Troops
4 x5 intercessor squads with Bolt Rifles (sergent has a chainsword cause duh!)
Elites:
2 Dakka Agressor Squads
and a redemptor Dread with heavy gatling canon, gatling canon, and stormbolters,
Heavy Support:
1 Squad Eliminators (sergent has the bolt carbine)
1 squad Hellblasters (5 man, rapid rife plasma guns)
Repulsor Executioner (with Heavy Laser Destroyer, Icarus Rocket Pod, Ironhail heavy stubber)
Dedicated Transports:
2 Impulsors each with stormbolters, Ironhail heavy stubber, and shield Dome
Repulsor: with Ironhail heavy stubber, twin heavy Bolter, Heavy Onslaught gatling Canon, Onsalught Gatling Canon, 3 stormbolters, and 2 fragstorm grenade launchers.
alright folks, with this specific list, how can I get the best performance out of it? what stragtiugums should I use and when? what infantry should go in what transport, etc? what should my warlord traits, relics and psyker pwoers be?
DISCUSS!
I agree with walrus about bunching an intercessor unit. Ultramarine intercessors in tactical doctrine can move and use the Rapid Fire strategem at the full 30". So with ten intercessors, that means 40 shots at an effective range of 36". You get a lot more out of your 2 CP.
I actually like Phobos librarians because of what they can do:
-You can deploy forward in a LoS-blocking ruin to be in range for denials turn one
-If you're up against a heavy psychic (eg. smite spam) army, deploying forward with the Reliquary of Gathalamor will disrupt whatever your opponent was planning to do.
-He can step out of cover, cast a smite or mind raid, then use temporal corridor to get back under cover. Or, using the Shoot & Fade warlord trait, he can step out, cast two powers, and then move back under cover in the shooting phase.
-Phobos librarians can synergize with Eliminators, casting soul sight on them to improve their shooting, preventing them from being shot by using shrouding.
-Give the librarian the Shoot and Fade warlord trait, and the Eliminators can step out, shoot with their good ammunition, and then dodge back under cover (UMs don't care about moving and shooting heavies in tactical doctrine. I realize Elims can shoot without LoS, but the Mortis rounds are so much better at sniping characters with 4+ wounds.)
With everything in a transport except the Eliminators, they're going to draw fire from every indirect, dropping shot, and flyer unit on the table. Something like starting them inside one of the transports turn one, then moving them out once the opponent's indirect fire is dead, and/or casting shrouding on them, and/or keeping them out of LoS while they pop up and shoot, is pretty much the only way they're going to survive past turn one.
That's off the top of my head. Probably more on the way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The transport question is tough because there's no way to fit everything, so some T4 will be on the table turn one.
-Impulsors can only fit Intercessors, so two of the 5-man squads go in there.
-I assume those Aggressor squads are 3 models each? So one in the Executioner and the other in the Repulsor. Aggressors are going to draw a lot of fire and they need to be closer, so they should get priority access to transports. They don't want to disembark until tactical doctrine in turn 2 anyway.
-If you go with a 10-man Intercessor unit, then they can go on foot--they have much more range than Aggressors.
-One or two small Intercessor units hang back to camp home objectives (if this were a list-building thread, I would suggest stalker bolt rifles for one or the other squad).
-Captain goes in any transport where he'll fit.
-Librarian deploys forward in a ruin, or uses Temporal Corridor to go where he wants.
-Eliminators can either deploy in the Repulsor with the Aggressors, or can replace an Intercessor unit in an Impulsor. When it's safe for them to come out, they come out.
Then the army plays like an old-school mech infantry, moving into range, then disembarking and shooting.
Ultramarine Rapid Redeployment stratagem is, IMO, one of the best in the game.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I know you said "no listbuilding", but combining two of the Intercessor squads to a 10-man squad means you can get more oomph out of the Rapid Fire stratagem. Since it's Ultramarines being on foot isn't going to matter that much for Bolter Discipline. That'd also let you run the other two Intercessor squads and the Hellblasters in the transports. Turn the Captain into a Chapter Master, give him the vox Espiritum for bigger aura range. Adept of the Codex on something for CP regeneration since you're not gonna have a lot of them.
The Libby is limited in efficiency since a bunch of the Obscuration powers only work on <PHOBOS> units. Tenebrous Curse and something else I guess.
I haven't got the UM supplement, so there's probably some stuff in there that I'm missing.
not a bad idea re the intercessors yeah (it's list optimization yes but it's acceptable for this exercise as you're not discussing . as for the Libby obscuration is of limtied use yes, but I can opt to sue the Ultramarines powers so there's that. truthfully I just like the Phobos Libby model eneugh that I'll make it work even though I'm proably better just using a normal libby.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
False. In a tactics thread you can and should discuss tactics and uses of units.
Nowhere does it say you absolutely must discuss only the most efficient ones. If somebody comes here wanting to make their assault Terminators work as best as they can, then this is the thread where that discussion can and should occur in. There's ample space to discuss the proper tactical application of those units even if they're notoriously inefficient.
Shouting at people because they dare to select units and lists that aren't ITCHammer meta defining even when tactics discussion can still be had is the epitome of childish nerdrage bs. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am anyway.
Not playing ITC doesn't magically make bad units any good. Sorry but it's true. Also this game isn't so complex that it garners much discussion to talk about those bad units, nor do we ever really discover anything new for those units a couple of months after a codex being dropped.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
So? Your insistence on only being allowed to discuss the kind of tactics you care about is a parameter you've created yourself as well.
Funnily enough, all things else equal it takes a better player to win with a weaker unit choice, not a worse one. You're seemingly completely incapable of understanding the fact that someone might completely understand that a unit is sub-par but still want to make it as good as possible. Making a sub-par unit perform as well as possible is a completely valid way of making yourself better at the game.
Except I didn't create any artificial parameters. The whole game is available, surprise surprise. So yeah it's a waste of time to talk about Assault Marines, Tactical Terminators, Predators, etc.
except if someone HAS assault marines, terrminators and predators they'll want advise on how to use them, not be told "ohh buy a bunch of new stuff" not everyone has the money to drop on an entire new list every month.
They don't actually need to buy Assault Marines if they're just used as Vanguard. Also of course not everyone has money to drop nillywilly. That's why you tell people to avoid buying certain things in the first place!
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
I'm not going to go play baseball with a worn out bat and glove and not do my best. Otherwise I might as well not show up. Nor should anyone have interest in a game where one of your teammates doesn't try either.
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
I'm not going to go play baseball with a worn out bat and glove and not do my best. Otherwise I might as well not show up. Nor should anyone have interest in a game where one of your teammates doesn't try either.
So poor people shouldn't be allowed to play baseball, if they can't afford new equipment? You're really not coming off very well.
Slayer you have a piss poor attitude and you aren't making any friends here with it. This doesn't go how you think it does. Take your bullcrap to the competitive warhammer subreddit or wherever else people only play at tournaments. Its been said many ways, but ultimately what I'm try to tell you is lose the attitude or GTFO.
godardc wrote: Has anyone tried IH or UM land speeder (with ML ?) ? Even without any penalty to hit, looks awfully overcoated...
Ironhands speeds are pretty dang good. Put them in a unit of 3 and give them a 4++ for moving for 1 CP. Pretty hard to hide from them and that is a lot of firepower. A contemptor dread can get even more firepower for the price but it will have a 5++ not a 4++ and a more difficult time targeting the units it wants to - it is also a lot less versatile as the speeders can put out 6d6 str 4 ap-1 plus 9 str 5 ap-2 to kill infantry. Ultramarines are just a much worse version of that so I'd take them as Ironhands.
Advice given should be in context to the question asked. If someone asks how to make a specific unit work, then the advice should not be to replace that unit, but considerations on making it work.
If the Question is the value for a unit, then yes discussing possible alternatives for the unit's role is acceptable. That being said, it's generally more well received if a) you give an alternative, and b) say it in a positive and informative manner. Seriously reading unit A SUCKS, use unit B instead gets grating. It offers no real helpful input. It doesn't say why Unit A sucks, or what considerations should be given to taking Unit A over unit B, so it doesn't actually contribute anything to the conversation, and gets ignored.
That aside, I'd be wary of meta-chasing. If all your doing is following the FoTM then your not improving as a player, which for some people might be acceptable, but your also setting yourself up to be sideswiped by any list that is tailored to beat that meta. Having a bit of diversity in your list can often times be the way to survive those match-ups.
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
I'm not going to go play baseball with a worn out bat and glove and not do my best. Otherwise I might as well not show up. Nor should anyone have interest in a game where one of your teammates doesn't try either.
So poor people shouldn't be allowed to play baseball, if they can't afford new equipment? You're really not coming off very well.
If you have damaged/worn equipment you should probably replace it. That's just common sense there. You never had a wooden bat break on you I take it?
Sometimes you can still get use out of that equipment and can't afford to replace it because you have this thing called a budget. Have you heard of that Slayer-fan? it's this thing adu;ts have to live with, and sometimes you have to choose between buying an entire new army to chase the meta fairy and eating? but I suppose you think people who can't just ask mommy and daddy for a new 40k army every 6 months aren't worthy of having hobbys?
because guess what? if someone posts a list they're proably trying to make the best list with the models they have, telling them to replace their entire list is... completly useless advice because
1: they may not be able to afford it.
2: they may not have time to do so (If I've got a game scheduled against my buddies a two days I don't have time to run out, buy build and paint an entire new army)
3: they might wanna use a partiuclar unit because gosh darn it, THEY LIKE IT!
people who responded to my list (which BTW is a list I could run right now as I own all the models) for example where doing PERFECT, they gave some sggestions regarding the particular list and the only major change they suggested was simply combining two squads into one, that's something they knew I could do if I so wished to.THAT was good advice.
Advice given should be in context to the question asked. If someone asks how to make a specific unit work, then the advice should not be to replace that unit, but considerations on making it work.
If the Question is the value for a unit, then yes discussing possible alternatives for the unit's role is acceptable. That being said, it's generally more well received if a) you give an alternative, and b) say it in a positive and informative manner. Seriously reading unit A SUCKS, use unit B instead gets grating. It offers no real helpful input. It doesn't say why Unit A sucks, or what considerations should be given to taking Unit A over unit B, so it doesn't actually contribute anything to the conversation, and gets ignored.
That aside, I'd be wary of meta-chasing. If all your doing is following the FoTM then your not improving as a player, which for some people might be acceptable, but your also setting yourself up to be sideswiped by any list that is tailored to beat that meta. Having a bit of diversity in your list can often times be the way to survive those match-ups.
Except people here don't care if you explain the unit is bad. There's posters here that literally can't do math at this point and they defend bad units. Plus look at how long this thread is. Should it really need to be explained AGAIN Assault Marines are garbage in a paragraph format? Not really, just a simple "they're mathematically bad compared to the other options" should be sufficient enough.
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
I'm not going to go play baseball with a worn out bat and glove and not do my best. Otherwise I might as well not show up. Nor should anyone have interest in a game where one of your teammates doesn't try either.
So poor people shouldn't be allowed to play baseball, if they can't afford new equipment? You're really not coming off very well.
If you have damaged/worn equipment you should probably replace it. That's just common sense there. You never had a wooden bat break on you I take it?
Sometimes you can still get use out of that equipment and can't afford to replace it because you have this thing called a budget. Have you heard of that Slayer-fan? it's this thing adu;ts have to live with, and sometimes you have to choose between buying an entire new army to chase the meta fairy and eating? but I suppose you think people who can't just ask mommy and daddy for a new 40k army every 6 months aren't worthy of having hobbys?
because guess what? if someone posts a list they're proably trying to make the best list with the models they have, telling them to replace their entire list is... completly useless advice because
1: they may not be able to afford it.
2: they may not have time to do so (If I've got a game scheduled against my buddies a two days I don't have time to run out, buy build and paint an entire new army)
3: they might wanna use a partiuclar unit because gosh darn it, THEY LIKE IT!
people who responded to my list (which BTW is a list I could run right now as I own all the models) for example where doing PERFECT, they gave some sggestions regarding the particular list and the only major change they suggested was simply combining two squads into one, that's something they knew I could do if I so wished to.THAT was good advice.
So you're not actually looking for advice. You're looking for "everything is great kiddo! Great job!"
If someone wanted to improve at baseball, and all they had was the worn about-to-break bat, yeah the first piece of advice should be to toss it, not try and duct tape it together.
BrianDavion wrote: that you keep making a baseball analogy just shows how utterly clueless you are.
No Baseball coach is going to tell someone who shows up to their first game of baseball to go out and get olympic level baseball gear.
He's going to work on the SKILL SET.
Touche
Also funny that people play baseball without planning to win world cup so organize teams that aren't best players in the world either.
And no one, precisely NO ONE is going to fobid you from playing in a local "fun league" because your glove is a bit old. only time poor equipment would be an issue is if it was a safety concern.
but yeah I'd much rather see a focus on skill set then "lol your list needs XYZ" actually I for one would appreciate a tactics thread of basic tricks, I know as someone whom readily admits he's not perfect by any means there are a lot of little positional things that I suspect I'd benifit from being told with images etc.
godardc wrote: Has anyone tried IH or UM land speeder (with ML ?) ? Even without any penalty to hit, looks awfully overcoated...
I've used up to four speeders at a time in typhoon/HB configuration, but with Raven Guard rather than UM/IH, in both competitive and casual games.
The fire output is amazing, even with the move-shoot penalty, even without staying in a bubble. It's just a lot of shots, and with flexibility to switch between antitank and frag. So, for example, I've seen two speeders wipe out a unit of Deathwatch vets with storm shields, because frag doesn't care about invulnerable saves, then next turn blow up a dread with krak missiles.
But the durability of the speeders is basically zero. With so much Str5 in the marine meta right now, the speeders go down like paper in whatever turn your opponent decides to target them (even with the RG cover save). If you hide them, they can't shoot, and Thunderfire cannons just wipe them out even when they hide. Imperial Fists can just sneeze in their direction, and the speeders go down. Best case, they get to shoot once or twice, then they give up an easy kill.
Skilled Riders isn't one of the good defensive strats (like Eldar lighting fast reactions) that you trigger when the unit is targeted. Because it works in your movement phase, you can't use it at all in turn one if you're going second--which means dead speeders since they can't start in reserve or hide from indirect fire. You can only protect one unit of speeders at a time, you have to pick which unit to protect before your opponent's turn, and 2CP every turn gets really expensive.
I've heard about competitive players using them in a kind of lurk-and-pounce mode, using Skilled Riders to soak up fire. But that's out of my league in terms of skill level, personally.
I really would like them to work. Tactically, a cheap speeder or two with the mobility to score points by zooming around to objectives, recon, linebreaker and so forth is really great, if you can keep it alive long enough. Flying vehicles make really good screening units, but compared with Impulsors for about the same cost...
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I'm putting together a Salamanders deathstar list built around 4 Centurion Devastators with all lascannons, and maybe the missiles too. The idea is to use the Self Sacrifice stratagem to keep them from being targeted while they kill stuff from across the table. (I'm giving up on the idea of salamanders closing in to use flamers/meltas since I can't make that work.)
If you don't have the Salamanders FAQ in front of you, the rewrite of Self Sacrifice is like this: At the start of your opponent's shooting phase, you pick an infantry unit to be protected, and an infantry unit within 6" of it to be sacrificed. The protected unit can't be targeted by enemy shooting until the sacrificial unit is dead or otherwise forced to be completely more than 6" away from the protected unit.
So I need the toughest possible infantry unit to stand within 6" of my centurions and take the hits. What do you guys think would work best?
-Big units of Intercessors--individually not that tough, but point-for-point more wounds, and you can switch them out for a fresh one as they get reduced.
-Six aggressors, T5 and 3 wounds each is tasty
-Ten terminators, any flavor
-Something else?
The sacrificial unit(s) have to be infantry. It would be nice, but not vital, if they could also be doing something while they stand around, like shooting stalker bolt rifles or whatever.
Salamanders also have probably the best durability buffs in the SM arsenal. The sacrificial unit can get -1 to be hit, +1 toughness, +1 armor save, and 6+++ feel no pain.
If I sacrifice a multiwound unit, the Forgeworld character Hareth Shen can be used to bring back dead models more reliably than a regular apothecary.
Also I could take a Chief Apothecary with the 5++ aura power (six aggressor/terminator bases will fit within 1" of an apothecary) and possibly the heal-the-same-unit-twice relic to buff up the sacrificial unit.
So taking all that into account, what's the best sacrificial unit?
Flavius Infernus wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: So I'm putting together a Salamanders deathstar list built around 4 Centurion Devastators with all lascannons, and maybe the missiles too. The idea is to use the Self Sacrifice stratagem to keep them from being targeted while they kill stuff from across the table. (I'm giving up on the idea of salamanders closing in to use flamers/meltas since I can't make that work.)
If you don't have the Salamanders FAQ in front of you, the rewrite of Self Sacrifice is like this: At the start of your opponent's shooting phase, you pick an infantry unit to be protected, and an infantry unit within 6" of it to be sacrificed. The protected unit can't be targeted by enemy shooting until the sacrificial unit is dead or otherwise forced to be completely more than 6" away from the protected unit.
So I need the toughest possible infantry unit to stand within 6" of my centurions and take the hits. What do you guys think would work best?
-Big units of Intercessors--individually not that tough, but point-for-point more wounds, and you can switch them out for a fresh one as they get reduced.
-Six aggressors, T5 and 3 wounds each is tasty
-Ten terminators, any flavor
-Something else?
The sacrificial unit(s) have to be infantry. It would be nice, but not vital, if they could also be doing something while they stand around, like shooting stalker bolt rifles or whatever.
Salamanders also have probably the best durability buffs in the SM arsenal. The sacrificial unit can get -1 to be hit, +1 toughness, +1 armor save, and 6+++ feel no pain.
If I sacrifice a multiwound unit, the Forgeworld character Hareth Shen can be used to bring back dead models more reliably than a regular apothecary.
Also I could take a Chief Apothecary with the 5++ aura power (six aggressor/terminator bases will fit within 1" of an apothecary) and possibly the heal-the-same-unit-twice relic to buff up the sacrificial unit.
So taking all that into account, what's the best sacrificial unit?
It depends on your opponent, but for 1217 points you can get your self:
4 DevCents with 2 Las and hurricanes
6 Aggressors with boltstorms
35 Intercessors (5x5 and 1x10)
Depending on the match-ups:
Lots of Str 6 2D Decent AP - Buff the Aggressors and use them to shield the centurions
Lots of Mortal Wounds - Don't bother buffing the intercessors but put them in front of the centurions and aggressors. Unless the MWs come from shooting, self sacrifice doesn't matter here
Lots of 1D Decent AP shots, you can either buff the aggressors and use Stand your ground (+1 save against 1 Damage weapons) or use the centurions to tank for your aggressors (as they are still incredibly durable to 1D weapons)
Lots of 3+D High AP shots, Buff intercessors and use them to shield for either the aggressors or DevCents depending on whats more important.
Consider taking a Chaplain for either the bubble 5+ FNP against MW for MW heavy armies or +1 to hit against everybody else.
If your getting removed by just too much High AP weaponry (like stalker bolt rifles, AP3 2D is nasty for Cents), I would then consider putting in 5 SS/TH terminators (10 is way to expensive to just soak hits).
Also, sometimes it will be better to just let your opponent hit your DevCents, They are the most durable thing on your board and if they are going to try and put their entire army into low efficiency attacks against the DevCents, your other models will be in a better position later on. Especially with Harath Shen and F&F your centurions will be resilient as long as they aren't wiped.
hi all,
i have 40 intercessor and try to build them as ultramarine so their weapon load out should be bolt rifle. but i have a couple question
1. which equipment will suit for their sergeant ? i think i saw someone using thunderhammer?
2. should i keep them as squad of 10?
kaiseric wrote: hi all,
i have 40 intercessor and try to build them as ultramarine so their weapon load out should be bolt rifle. but i have a couple question
1. which equipment will suit for their sergeant ? i think i saw someone using thunderhammer?
2. should i keep them as squad of 10?
1) Chainswords. Free, extra attack. Leave the heavy-hitting to other units.
2) One or two squads of 10 (for strat and litany usage), the rest 5.
Having one or two Sergeants armed with a Thunder Hammer isn't a bad idea, especially with that many intercessor models available. Thunder Hammers make the squad scary in close combat.
Especially for the squads you are planning to march forward to grab objectives, a CC toy for the sarge is not a bad investment. They get a healthy number of attacks.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: So I'm putting together a Salamanders deathstar list built around 4 Centurion Devastators with all lascannons, and maybe the missiles too. The idea is to use the Self Sacrifice stratagem to keep them from being targeted while they kill stuff from across the table. (I'm giving up on the idea of salamanders closing in to use flamers/meltas since I can't make that work.)
If you don't have the Salamanders FAQ in front of you, the rewrite of Self Sacrifice is like this: At the start of your opponent's shooting phase, you pick an infantry unit to be protected, and an infantry unit within 6" of it to be sacrificed. The protected unit can't be targeted by enemy shooting until the sacrificial unit is dead or otherwise forced to be completely more than 6" away from the protected unit.
So I need the toughest possible infantry unit to stand within 6" of my centurions and take the hits. What do you guys think would work best?
-Big units of Intercessors--individually not that tough, but point-for-point more wounds, and you can switch them out for a fresh one as they get reduced.
-Six aggressors, T5 and 3 wounds each is tasty
-Ten terminators, any flavor
-Something else?
The sacrificial unit(s) have to be infantry. It would be nice, but not vital, if they could also be doing something while they stand around, like shooting stalker bolt rifles or whatever.
Salamanders also have probably the best durability buffs in the SM arsenal. The sacrificial unit can get -1 to be hit, +1 toughness, +1 armor save, and 6+++ feel no pain.
If I sacrifice a multiwound unit, the Forgeworld character Hareth Shen can be used to bring back dead models more reliably than a regular apothecary.
Also I could take a Chief Apothecary with the 5++ aura power (six aggressor/terminator bases will fit within 1" of an apothecary) and possibly the heal-the-same-unit-twice relic to buff up the sacrificial unit.
So taking all that into account, what's the best sacrificial unit?
It depends on your opponent, but for 1217 points you can get your self:
4 DevCents with 2 Las and hurricanes
6 Aggressors with boltstorms
35 Intercessors (5x5 and 1x10)
Depending on the match-ups:
Lots of Str 6 2D Decent AP - Buff the Aggressors and use them to shield the centurions
Lots of Mortal Wounds - Don't bother buffing the intercessors but put them in front of the centurions and aggressors. Unless the MWs come from shooting, self sacrifice doesn't matter here
Lots of 1D Decent AP shots, you can either buff the aggressors and use Stand your ground (+1 save against 1 Damage weapons) or use the centurions to tank for your aggressors (as they are still incredibly durable to 1D weapons)
Lots of 3+D High AP shots, Buff intercessors and use them to shield for either the aggressors or DevCents depending on whats more important.
Consider taking a Chaplain for either the bubble 5+ FNP against MW for MW heavy armies or +1 to hit against everybody else.
If your getting removed by just too much High AP weaponry (like stalker bolt rifles, AP3 2D is nasty for Cents), I would then consider putting in 5 SS/TH terminators (10 is way to expensive to just soak hits).
Also, sometimes it will be better to just let your opponent hit your DevCents, They are the most durable thing on your board and if they are going to try and put their entire army into low efficiency attacks against the DevCents, your other models will be in a better position later on. Especially with Harath Shen and F&F your centurions will be resilient as long as they aren't wiped.
Thanks for the feedback, especially on the pairings. It consistently looks like Aggressors are the best option to have available.
kaiseric wrote: hi all,
i have 40 intercessor and try to build them as ultramarine so their weapon load out should be bolt rifle. but i have a couple question
1. which equipment will suit for their sergeant ? i think i saw someone using thunderhammer?
2. should i keep them as squad of 10?
I think the power fist is more realistic. If you are taking 1 thunder-hammer on a 5 man intercessors...that will just be the first one to die. Just take 2 powerfists instead. It is about the same price and the likelihood of actually using the weapon goes up drastically.
For example I take 25 intercessors on foot and I put 12 in impulsors. I give the 2 sarg typically a power sword on 1 and a power fist on the other. I don't think I've gotten them into combat once. I'm starting to think the melle weapons are a waste. You really only take them for matchups like custodes/eldar who want to jump on you with tough units like spears or jetbikes and it gives you better counter charge.
Which factions are best for souping? I'm trying to soup up with Raven guard an blood angels. Both factions don't get that big debuff for losing the super doctrine, imho.
I wish the would be some long range faction who doesn't lean too much on super doctrine.
For my pure BA or RG lists I find it difficult to cover the long range support (no-FW). Am I missing something? My RG are pure primaris and bringing a single costly range threat feels just stupid.
Which factions are best for souping? I'm trying to soup up with Raven guard an blood angels. Both factions don't get that big debuff for losing the super doctrine, imho.
I wish the would be some long range faction who doesn't lean too much on super doctrine.
For my pure BA or RG lists I find it difficult to cover the long range support (no-FW). Am I missing something? My RG are pure primaris and bringing a single costly range threat feels just stupid.
For your BA take melle elements and your RG take shooty elements. RG can take a chapter master and ven dreads...works great. BA take sang gaurd and characters ect.
Which factions are best for souping? I'm trying to soup up with Raven guard an blood angels. Both factions don't get that big debuff for losing the super doctrine, imho.
I wish the would be some long range faction who doesn't lean too much on super doctrine.
For my pure BA or RG lists I find it difficult to cover the long range support (no-FW). Am I missing something? My RG are pure primaris and bringing a single costly range threat feels just stupid.
For long-range fire support:
Imperial Fists still get ignore cover in soup lists. That makes their indirect fire weapons better. Elsewhere in this thread you'll see references to an IF spearhead with a captain (with the Eye of Hypnoth) and three TFC/Whirlwinds. Since these weapons don't shoot at vehicles most of the time anyway, they're not losing anything.
Iron Hands still get the character dreadnought and iron stone in soup lists. Elsewhere on this thread you'll see references to an IH spearhead detachment with a chaplain dread, contemptor mortis dread, and two thunderfire cannons. The TFCs don't move anyway, so they don't suffer from loss of the superdoctrine, and the dreads are BS 2+, so they don't lose that much.
So in this list I would have a decent alpha strike and screen removal. A chance to drop down an invul. T1/T2 with the JP lib with MoA deploy. The above eldar soup is something from my meta and if I can give it a hard time, maybe I can compete with others as well. I don't have any FW so have to stick with regulars.
Any ideas/suggestions. My "RG" primaris is painted in black colour scheme, so it can be altered into something else.
So in this list I would have a decent alpha strike and screen removal. A chance to drop down an invul. T1/T2 with the JP lib with MoA deploy. The above eldar soup is something from my meta and if I can give it a hard time, maybe I can compete with others as well. I don't have any FW so have to stick with regulars.
Any ideas/suggestions. My "RG" primaris is painted in black colour scheme, so it can be altered into something else.
I would suggest taking the tech marine with +1 to hit aura for vehicals with a chapter master for that RG detachment. Surrounded by redemptor dreads with gatling guns and missle pods and impuslors with the skytalon array. That will murder those Eldar. Just play RG successors with +3 inch range and always count in cover.
Another option is just spamming intercessors with autoboltguns with a chapter master. This negates the MW spam.
Hi everyone, still fairly new to marines but trying to build somewhat competitively.
Are Impulsors any good?
Was thinking of adding one with 5 Auto bolt Intercessors and a Captain but have never seen/heard about anyone trying them. Was thinking of going either Orbital bombard or shield - guessing the shield is better!
Currently mostly a gun line army and I want something that can reach out!
What would be a good purchase for her when birthdays come around to make her army slightly more competitive.
First thing that leaps out is you need one more troop pick for a battalion. A box of intercessors would give you some options, and more poses then what I assume is 2x the same mono-pose ones.
Alternatively, I might suggest the SC: vanguard marines box. It gives you another troop pic (infiltrators) another HQ (a LT, which matches better than 2 captains) and some long range firepower in the form of supressors and eliminators.
(If you fan find/split the showdowspear box, that’s better deal, as you get 2 more HQs and the whole chaos side)
A lower cost option would be a new HQ. Doubling up on the captains doesn’t do a whole lot. Adding a librarian, Lt. or another option will give you more flexibility.
Tremble wrote: Hi everyone, still fairly new to marines but trying to build somewhat competitively.
Are Impulsors any good?
Was thinking of adding one with 5 Auto bolt Intercessors and a Captain but have never seen/heard about anyone trying them. Was thinking of going either Orbital bombard or shield - guessing the shield is better!
Currently mostly a gun line army and I want something that can reach out!
Dont really want to buy it if its trash!
It depends how many T7 or T8 vehicles you have in your list.
Against most shooty marine armies, you can expect to lose 1-3 T7 vehicles per turn. If you run the math on four Iron Hands lascannons (hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, -4AP—a mortis contemptor dread or regular mortis dread supported by a master of the forge) you find that the median damage on a T7 vehicle with a 3+ save is about 8-10 wounds, with about 33% of the time scoring 11+ wounds. Giving it a 4+ invul cuts those wounds in half on average, but that just means the second dread (or flyer) has to shoot it too.
So just one impulsor, even with the shield, will probably be dead in turn 1 if it’s your only vehicle.
Two impulsors with shields, and one of them may last into turn 2-3.
If you really want to use impulsors, you need at least 4-5 vehicles with T7+ to have any chance of some making it into later turns.
I recently played in a couple of noncompetitive local RTs with an Eldar list with 5 wave serpents and 3 night spinners, and against shooty marine armies I lost a tank or two per turn (and wave serpents are tougher than impulsors). At a tournament yesterday, my Iron Hands opponent was able to take out one whirlwind per turn every time he got a shot at one (the terrain didn’t allow me to hide them all), and could easily have killed 2-3 in a turn if he’d had LoS.
So they work, but they will get killed and you need enough of them to still have some around in later turns when you’ve had a chance to deal with your opponent’s antitank shooting.
I keep hearing buzz about a theoretical impulsor spam list with 7-8 impulsors all armed with maximum guns and no shields, but I haven’t seen anybody actually field that yet.
What would be a good purchase for her when birthdays come around to make her army slightly more competitive.
definatly more troops. I'll second the suggestion to snag the start collecting vanguard box.
that'll give ehr another unit of troops. a Leuitenant (giving her a differant type of HQ, which;ll be good) a unit of Eliminators which are REALLY nice. a unit of supressors which will give her some mobile heavy firepower, all for a, considering primaris marines, a pretty reasonable price tag.
Hope you might be able to help offer me some advice for my intecessors load outs. I have the 10 from DI and then another box. I only have two grenade launchers so I was thinking of sticking them on two of the DI mono-pose ones and then splitting the box between the other two weapon types and having
5 w/ Bolt Rifles, inc one Grenade launcher
5 w/ Bolt Rifles, inc one Grenade launcher
5 w/ Stalker Bolt Rifles
5 w/ Auto Bolt Rifles
And then just stick a chainsword on all the sergeants (this is free and has no downside from what I can see?)
Is this my best option? I'm more interested in flexibility then whats 100% the best loadout, but if one of the bolter types is far superior I'm happy to go with more of one type. I've only used normal bolt rifles so far so no idea how the others do on the battlefield
I always run 1 each of the little fliers and a Redemptor, sometimes dropping in another dread so it would not be the only mech.
Have not seen anyone buy/use an Impulsor at all yet which might be the hint I should stay away!
I have plenty of anti tank in my list but not sure I have enough anti-infantry so thought adding the auto bolt intercessors that can be in opponents face first turn would be helpful.
Have heard mention of hellblasters in Impulsors as well but they are mega expensive, and they need a captain and the banner and a lieutenant which means 3 impulsors to get everyone there with a unit each!
I always run 1 each of the little fliers and a Redemptor, sometimes dropping in another dread so it would not be the only mech.
Have not seen anyone buy/use an Impulsor at all yet which might be the hint I should stay away!
I have plenty of anti tank in my list but not sure I have enough anti-infantry so thought adding the auto bolt intercessors that can be in opponents face first turn would be helpful.
Have heard mention of hellblasters in Impulsors as well but they are mega expensive, and they need a captain and the banner and a lieutenant which means 3 impulsors to get everyone there with a unit each!
I have been considering the following package as a mobile strike force:
2 Impulsors with 5 Hellbasters each
Smash Captain on bike to follow up with speed
A Lieutenant and Ancient each ride in one vehicle
Comes up at around 40% of a 2000pts list. Expensive but looks like packing a real punch and well protected until firing. Any thought?
Most of the competitive lists I've seen wouldn't have trouble killing two Impulsors and 10 primaris marines in a single turn. So I think you might be disappointed with the results.
I'm another one of those marine players who has piles of unused hellblasters because of the way they come with every boxed set, and I've tried to make them work, but without any success personally.
It's not only that they can't do as much damage as other, much more devastating units like centurions or even devastators, and it's not only needing all those support characters just to get a measly 2 points of damage per shot. I think the major problem is that they're still priced according to the early 8th-edition value of plasma, and the meta has changed around them to make them now ridiculously overpriced.
For the cost of one hellblaster you can get two intercessors with stalker bolt rifles. The intercessors have the same damage output, same number of shots, twice the wounds, obsec, longer range, and similar AP depending on doctrine. Hellblasters at their current cost don't make any sense.
Impulsors can work as a shooting/flying/screening vehicle, similar to how wave serpents work in an Eldar army. But Impulsors, IMHO, don't currently have anything that they can carry that's going to be super hard-hitting (which can be good, though, because then they become less of a target).
my biggest sucess with hellblasters came from someone who'd never fought em before, hellblasters are just plasma gun marines and thus it's easy to under estimate em if you don't realize how potent a full squad of em is. I one shooted his redemptor dread.
Are there anyways to get Tactical Doctrine T1? There is the stratagem, but thats only 1 unit. Trying to get both aggressors units T1. Im looking at taking Ultramarine Aggressors (2x6) with Chaptaer anceient, chaplian, Calgar and tiggy as a death ball in the middle of the board. Would like to be able to get into Tac Dotrcrine T1.
Dynas wrote: Are there anyways to get Tactical Doctrine T1? Im looking at taking Ultramarine Aggressors (2x6) with Chaptaer anceient, chaplian, Calgar and tiggy as a death ball in the middle of the board. Would like to be able to get into Tac Dotrcrine T1.
There are 2 ways.
1 stratagem allows you to pick your doctrine for an infantry or biker unit.
Tiggy's warlord trait allows you to put 1 unit in the tactical doctrine I believe at the start of the turn within 6".
So you can get both of them in the tactical doctrine turn 1 with that build. No problem.
Dynas wrote: Are there anyways to get Tactical Doctrine T1? Im looking at taking Ultramarine Aggressors (2x6) with Chaptaer anceient, chaplian, Calgar and tiggy as a death ball in the middle of the board. Would like to be able to get into Tac Dotrcrine T1.
There are 2 ways.
1 stratagem allows you to pick your doctrine for an infantry or biker unit.
Tiggy's warlord trait allows you to put 1 unit in the tactical doctrine I believe at the start of the turn within 6".
So you can get both of them in the tactical doctrine turn 1 with that build. No problem.
OK thanks. So i can take master of strategy and use the extra WLT to put it on a chaplain for example. Or i guess it wouldn't really matter.
Dynas wrote: Are there anyways to get Tactical Doctrine T1? Im looking at taking Ultramarine Aggressors (2x6) with Chaptaer anceient, chaplian, Calgar and tiggy as a death ball in the middle of the board. Would like to be able to get into Tac Dotrcrine T1.
There are 2 ways.
1 stratagem allows you to pick your doctrine for an infantry or biker unit.
Tiggy's warlord trait allows you to put 1 unit in the tactical doctrine I believe at the start of the turn within 6".
So you can get both of them in the tactical doctrine turn 1 with that build. No problem.
OK thanks. So i can take master of strategy and use the extra WLT to put it on a chaplain for example. Or i guess it wouldn't really matter.
Black Templars Smash Captain; Thunder Hammer or relic Power Sword? Hammer is S8 vs. S5, Sword hits on 2+ rerollable instead of 3+ rerollable, S5 becomes a much lesser problem with the Vigilus stratagem giving rerolls to wound, and the sword also gets more value from the super doctrine. The hammer is 40 points whereas the sword is 1 CP and 4 points. I'm leaning sword just for thematic reasons, but from an optimization perspective, which would you take and why?
@Walrus I would say magnetize. Sometimes you won't have the CP but you'll have the points. Sometimes you'll have the points to spare but don't want to give up more CP. I find myself in the later camp where I don't like spending all of my CP before the game starts.
So is there anything different between chapter Ancient and the Ancient with terminator armor other than paying 3 points for the 5++ invul? Is there a Terminator with Banner model?
Dynas wrote: So is there anything different between chapter Ancient and the Ancient with terminator armor other than paying 3 points for the 5++ invul? Is there a Terminator with Banner model?
you also get a 2+ armor save and a native ability to deep strike. and IIRC the only model in terminator armor is actually in the dark angels termy command squad box.
Also, if you give honored sergeant mastercrafted weapon to an agressor does it increase the dame of boltstorm gauntlet both melle and ranged. So Damage 2 shooting and Damaged D3+1 in melee.
Dynas wrote: So is there anything different between chapter Ancient and the Ancient with terminator armor other than paying 3 points for the 5++ invul? Is there a Terminator with Banner model?
you also get a 2+ armor save and a native ability to deep strike. and IIRC the only model in terminator armor is actually in the dark angels termy command squad box.
Hmm. So i have old Tact Sgt banner bits, i guess i could put that on a basic Terminator and he is effectively the same.
Dynas wrote: Also, if you give honored sergeant mastercrafted weapon to an agressor does it increase the dame of boltstorm gauntlet both melle and ranged. So Damage 2 shooting and Damaged D3+1 in melee.
Dynas wrote: So is there anything different between chapter Ancient and the Ancient with terminator armor other than paying 3 points for the 5++ invul? Is there a Terminator with Banner model?
you also get a 2+ armor save and a native ability to deep strike. and IIRC the only model in terminator armor is actually in the dark angels termy command squad box.
Hmm. So i have old Tact Sgt banner bits, i guess i could put that on a basic Terminator and he is effectively the same.
I think that is FaQ_ed to have that +1 DMG only on either shooting profile or the melee profile, but not both.
LVO top 8 is terrible to read.. 1 ork, 1 eldar, 1 imperium soup (BA, IH, admech), 2 RG cent spams, 4 IH with three triple chap dread, 40 stalker intercessor, levianthan lists..
Boris IH list in the other hand looks fun list. Nice to see it in there.
Hope GW understands that SM isn't broken, just certain builds..
I want to discuss how to do screening the best as Space Marines. Especially against the opponent like Kraken Genstealers, Hormagants, Shining Spears, Harlequin Jetbikes, etc..
The most severe difficulty of deploying a screen of cheap units is being "taken hostage". As far as I know, the way to avoid being taken hostage is space your screen unit a bit. However, against horde units with 20+ models which can spread out forming a real long frontage so your units cannot avoid being taken hostage unless you spaced your units really far enough.
If you spaced your unit far enough away from each other, then there is no real meaning screen. Since your opponents can reliably swept more than 30", potentially covers more than 40", so a large hole on your frontline means enemy unit can and will penetrate through the screen to directly charge your big gun units in first turn.
So how should us deploy our screen against fast moving charging units, some even can fly.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Black Templars Smash Captain; Thunder Hammer or relic Power Sword? Hammer is S8 vs. S5, Sword hits on 2+ rerollable instead of 3+ rerollable, S5 becomes a much lesser problem with the Vigilus stratagem giving rerolls to wound, and the sword also gets more value from the super doctrine. The hammer is 40 points whereas the sword is 1 CP and 4 points. I'm leaning sword just for thematic reasons, but from an optimization perspective, which would you take and why?
That depends. Are you planning to get a Relic on the TH dude? Keep in mind you get access to the more supporting Relics since the TH is an awesome weapon on it's own, whereas you spent your Relic slot on the Sword. I'm also not a fan of the sword in general with Teeth of Terra existing. Against many targets, the three extra attacks are just better, and the times you are wanting the D3, the TH is gonna wound more often.
As my next army, I am looking to form Primaris White Scars. I have never played pure marine army, so I am seeking some advice here.
I am always bit thematic with my list approach. I like flyers. Any tips with such direction? I would love to include some Infiltrators (because the sculpt is lovely).
I don't have many models yet, so no restriction with that.
Primaris white scar looks like it would be a challenging list to make and play. Is it for fun/local friends type of scene or semi competitive? One thing I have found works well in white scars is jump infantry. Fall back / shoot / charge is really good.
Azuza001 wrote: Primaris white scar looks like it would be a challenging list to make and play. Is it for fun/local friends type of scene or semi competitive? One thing I have found works well in white scars is jump infantry. Fall back / shoot / charge is really good.
Local scene has "fun friendly" campaign thing going on everynow and then, and we have more serious tourneys like once in three months. Would be using these for both, hopefully. Just afraid I don't get them painted before Fall, which could easily be 9th edition time? Will see.
Fall back / shoot / charge is indeed neat, sadly just contradicts with where to my understanding Astartes is a gunline army? Jump infantry is a good tip there. I am unsure how good these new Repulsors are? What would be do's and don'ts with them?
Agreed: most competitive White Scars lists I’ve seen are built around outflanking centurions.
But, back when the WS supplement first came out, a lot of people were pointing out that a White Scars intercessors spam list could be really powerful, based on the fact that each melee attack does +1D once you get to assault doctrine. So you would just blanket the board wtih 60+ intercessors, shoot for two turns, then pile in and smash everything in close combat after turn 3.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Black Templars Smash Captain; Thunder Hammer or relic Power Sword? Hammer is S8 vs. S5, Sword hits on 2+ rerollable instead of 3+ rerollable, S5 becomes a much lesser problem with the Vigilus stratagem giving rerolls to wound, and the sword also gets more value from the super doctrine. The hammer is 40 points whereas the sword is 1 CP and 4 points. I'm leaning sword just for thematic reasons, but from an optimization perspective, which would you take and why?
That depends. Are you planning to get a Relic on the TH dude? Keep in mind you get access to the more supporting Relics since the TH is an awesome weapon on it's own, whereas you spent your Relic slot on the Sword. I'm also not a fan of the sword in general with Teeth of Terra existing. Against many targets, the three extra attacks are just better, and the times you are wanting the D3, the TH is gonna wound more often.
Assuming you're using the extra attack and reroll wounds stratagem from Vigilus, but no Doctrine and that the Smash Captain in question has the Vigilus warlord trait, the Thunder Hammer does slightly less than one more wound against T8 3+, while the sword does slightly less than half a wound more against T5 2+ (Centurion statline). They're pretty close in performance since although the Thunder Hammer has better strength, it also only hits 28/36 instead of 35/36 due to the -1 to hit.
The Teeth of Terra does slightly more than half the damage of the sword against a T5 2+ target under the above conditions. It does way worse against T8 3+ as well. It's better at mulching through T4 3+ 2W (i.e. Primaris Marines) since D2 and D3 might as well be the same there, but I'm not seeing the dominance of the Teeth of Terra. Smash Captains are generally taken to punch out the ridiculously tough targets, no?
Seeing all these Assault Centurions, are they better than Aggressors. Looking at pure Ultramarines chapter. The Scions of guilliman seem to work well with them. Am i missing something for having ultramarine centurions over aggressors?
Dynas wrote: Seeing all these Assault Centurions, are they better than Aggressors. Looking at pure Ultramarines chapter. The Scions of guilliman seem to work well with them. Am i missing something for having ultramarine centurions over aggressors?
Assault centurions are basically the better version of aggressors. However they are more expensive and slower. Assault centurions are great with chapters like WS or RG since they can put them in reserve with strats. Most competitive lists are using Assault centurions with long range marksman for 11" range flamers.
For ultramarines, they do have arguably the best aggressors so it may be better to run them over centurions.
To be honest though assault centurions are probably on the short list for Marine models that will probably be nerfed in the not so distant future.
Dynas wrote: Seeing all these Assault Centurions, are they better than Aggressors. Looking at pure Ultramarines chapter. The Scions of guilliman seem to work well with them. Am i missing something for having ultramarine centurions over aggressors?
For Ultramarines, aggressors synergize better with the chapter tactics than with other chapters because Ultramarines aggressors get to shoot twice, even when you move, while in tactical doctrine. So Ultramarine aggressors are automatically better than the aggressors of other chapters, who have to use strats or stand still to get the double shots.
Centurions get the better armor save (which gives them some kind of save against everything except -4AP lascannons), the extra wound, and assault centurions get Str10 with no -1 to hit penalty.
But aggressors are a little faster, a little cheaper, and a little less survivable.
So overall they are pretty well balanced in terms of points versus capabilities, with both actually being pretty underpriced compared to other armies and other SM units. But if I were playing Ultramarines, I’d prefer aggressors, both because of the extra shots and also because Ultramarines don’t have a good way to get centurions up the board.
Azuza001 wrote: Primaris white scar looks like it would be a challenging list to make and play. Is it for fun/local friends type of scene or semi competitive? One thing I have found works well in white scars is jump infantry. Fall back / shoot / charge is really good.
Local scene has "fun friendly" campaign thing going on everynow and then, and we have more serious tourneys like once in three months. Would be using these for both, hopefully. Just afraid I don't get them painted before Fall, which could easily be 9th edition time? Will see.
Fall back / shoot / charge is indeed neat, sadly just contradicts with where to my understanding Astartes is a gunline army? Jump infantry is a good tip there. I am unsure how good these new Repulsors are? What would be do's and don'ts with them?
With White Scars I would take advantage of Assault Weapon wielding Primaris in that case. Assault Bolt Intercessors are already good, so that would allow them to shoot at almost full strength and charge. Aggressors are excellent as always. As well, i know you're wanting all Primaris overall, but White Scars Vanguard are awesome and i highly recommend them. I like all Chainswords on them.
With White Scars I would take advantage of Assault Weapon wielding Primaris in that case. Assault Bolt Intercessors are already good, so that would allow them to shoot at almost full strength and charge. Aggressors are excellent as always. As well, i know you're wanting all Primaris overall, but White Scars Vanguard are awesome and i highly recommend them. I like all Chainswords on them.
So given my thematic WS list would decently stacked with Intercessors and then some gunships / interceptors for my flyer love - what there would be missing? I assume these flyers aren't the top tier units since I barely ever see them on lists.
Tactical warsuits, eliminators and aggressors maybe? Hellblasters seem weak to me.
With White Scars I would take advantage of Assault Weapon wielding Primaris in that case. Assault Bolt Intercessors are already good, so that would allow them to shoot at almost full strength and charge. Aggressors are excellent as always. As well, i know you're wanting all Primaris overall, but White Scars Vanguard are awesome and i highly recommend them. I like all Chainswords on them.
So given my thematic WS list would decently stacked with Intercessors and then some gunships / interceptors for my flyer love - what there would be missing? I assume these flyers aren't the top tier units since I barely ever see them on lists.
Tactical warsuits, eliminators and aggressors maybe? Hellblasters seem weak to me.
Absolutely take Aggressors. The Warsuit looks good and doesn't sacrifice much if it advances and charges, but I've not tried them myself. Hellblasters I'm not a fan of outside Dark Angels because Azrael.
For as thematic WS Primaris list one thing people are forgetting that is absolutely a "proably worth taking" are impulsors. Grab a pair of impulsors, load em up with hellblasters, move forward and absolutely shread your opponent fast.
Dynas wrote: Seeing all these Assault Centurions, are they better than Aggressors. Looking at pure Ultramarines chapter. The Scions of guilliman seem to work well with them. Am i missing something for having ultramarine centurions over aggressors?
For Ultramarines, aggressors synergize better with the chapter tactics than with other chapters because Ultramarines aggressors get to shoot twice, even when you move, while in tactical doctrine. So Ultramarine aggressors are automatically better than the aggressors of other chapters, who have to use strats or stand still to get the double shots.
Centurions get the better armor save (which gives them some kind of save against everything except -4AP lascannons), the extra wound, and assault centurions get Str10 with no -1 to hit penalty.
But aggressors are a little faster, a little cheaper, and a little less survivable.
So overall they are pretty well balanced in terms of points versus capabilities, with both actually being pretty underpriced compared to other armies and other SM units. But if I were playing Ultramarines, I’d prefer aggressors, both because of the extra shots and also because Ultramarines don’t have a good way to get centurions up the board.
Honestly Cents compare pretty favorably with aggressors even if they are shooting twice. Because they have natural ignore cover. Plus if you can get them in melee or flamer range it's not even close. They also have longer range by 6 inches with the hurricane. Aggressors are certainly good too I just think assault cents are even better. It is nice that you can slot a 3 man aggressor in for 111 points. That is dirt cheap for the attention they will get and if they are ignored can do some real damage.
Really these units aren't underpriced. They are both slow - have no invune saves and fire a bunch of str 4 shots. Not exactly the end of the world. Their melee stats are purely defensive and easy to avoid - so realistically they shouldn't pay much for them. It is the strats that let you ignore this weakness that are broken. Realistically - those strats are just going to be used on other units and make those units appear broken too if they go about this nerf the wrong way. Even assault terminators start looking pretty broken if you can charge with them turn 1 practically automatically.
For my own experience the assault cents do pretty well for the points they are a good mid line counter charge unit. If opponent wants to kill them before they do anything - it is pretty easy without me spending 2 cp to make them tougher. My personal opinion they should not be infantry. That would also fix any additional issues people have with their cost.
BrianDavion wrote: For as thematic WS Primaris list one thing people are forgetting that is absolutely a "proably worth taking" are impulsors. Grab a pair of impulsors, load em up with hellblasters, move forward and absolutely shread your opponent fast.
This is a good point, and I think I might go with this route.
For flyers, what you guys think which one to take: Stormhawk Interceptor or Stormtalon Gunship?
- interceptor cheaper, and higher toughness
- gunship has more firepower
I don't have experience in these guys at all. Any game experiences with these? Some good pointers to make an educated decision?
My brothers friend has gotten back into the hobby with his Imperial Fist army but he is kinda blown back by the Codex, Supplements and Psychic Awakening. He asked me if I could make him a 1k list but I don't play marines so have no idea how to make a list for them.
So, just wondering,can anyone recommend a 1k Casual-competive imperial Fist list for him to use. I know he has a lot of the older units and some of the newer stuff like the Primaris Marines from Dark Imperium and 1-2 redemptor dredos. He will more than likely be playing against my brother Tsons and Tzeetch daemons so the +1 damage doctorine won't have much affect but he like wysiwyg.
I'm trying to get a powerful classic marine list, seeing as my usual opponent are getting though, like primaris Imperial Fists.
I think going drop pods, jump pack characters, thunderfire and grav dev is a good beginning. I'm actively avoid crap vehicles, except dreadnought.
I'm taking plenty of scouts too ofc What's would be good others units according to you ?
Playing as Ultramarines for the moment.
Odrankt wrote:Hey everyone. Just have a quick question to ask.
My brothers friend has gotten back into the hobby with his Imperial Fist army but he is kinda blown back by the Codex, Supplements and Psychic Awakening. He asked me if I could make him a 1k list but I don't play marines so have no idea how to make a list for them.
So, just wondering,can anyone recommend a 1k Casual-competive imperial Fist list for him to use. I know he has a lot of the older units and some of the newer stuff like the Primaris Marines from Dark Imperium and 1-2 redemptor dredos. He will more than likely be playing against my brother Tsons and Tzeetch daemons so the +1 damage doctorine won't have much affect but he like wysiwyg.
Thanks in-advance for the help.
Imperial Fists are on top right now, so you have lot source materials. You could easily get a decent start going, if you just grab a good 2000 ITC list and trim it down to 1000. This also makes sense since you know what he owns.
For troops, I think he should run Intercessors with Stalker's.
I'm looking at imperial fist as well, mainly because I love a well painted yellow scheme. And I like the idea of defenders of terra. And they seem to be pretty competitive. Here is my list. I am a bit overwhelmed as well. There are so many relics and WLT and supplements. I read somewhere you can get like 4-7 WLT? and even have some characters with 2?! how is this done? Also, im not finding the Grey Shield thing in the Vigilus INdomitus Crusaders. It doesnt show in Battlescribe which leads me to think im doing something wrong.
Is this list to character heavy? I want the librarian and apocathary to go in the center of the cents and heal them up (and get the 5++) invul. Scouts are cheap obj secure bodies. Stalker bolt rifles for main gunline with Lt and Garadon. Tech Marine hangs out with the Thunderfire and whirlwinds. The thunderfire shoots twice. Can the Relic Whirlwind shoot twice? The keyword is "RELIC WHIRLWIND" but the stratagem is just whirlwind.
Primaris Librarian [5 PL, -1CP, 98pts]: 1) Tectonic Purge, 3) Null Zone, 4) Fortify, Force sword [8pts], Stratagem: Chief Librarian [-1CP], Tome of Malcador
Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, -1CP, 70pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant [4 PL, -1CP, 70pts]: Hand of Dorn, Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle [5pts], Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP]
Techmarine [4 PL, -2CP, 45pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Master of the Machine, Servo-arm, Stratagem: Field Commander [-1CP], Strategem: Master of the Forge [-1CP], The Eye of Hypnoth
Dynas wrote: I'm looking at imperial fist as well, mainly because I love a well painted yellow scheme. And I like the idea of defenders of terra. And they seem to be pretty competitive. Here is my list. I am a bit overwhelmed as well. There are so many relics and WLT and supplements. I read somewhere you can get like 4-7 WLT? and even have some characters with 2?! how is this done? Also, im not finding the Grey Shield thing in the Vigilus INdomitus Crusaders. It doesnt show in Battlescribe which leads me to think im doing something wrong.
Is this list to character heavy? I want the librarian and apocathary to go in the center of the cents and heal them up (and get the 5++) invul. Scouts are cheap obj secure bodies. Stalker bolt rifles for main gunline with Lt and Garadon. Tech Marine hangs out with the Thunderfire and whirlwinds. The thunderfire shoots twice. Can the Relic Whirlwind shoot twice? The keyword is "RELIC WHIRLWIND" but the stratagem is just whirlwind.
Primaris Librarian [5 PL, -1CP, 98pts]: 1) Tectonic Purge, 3) Null Zone, 4) Fortify, Force sword [8pts], Stratagem: Chief Librarian [-1CP], Tome of Malcador
Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, -1CP, 70pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant [4 PL, -1CP, 70pts]: Hand of Dorn, Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle [5pts], Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP]
Techmarine [4 PL, -2CP, 45pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Master of the Machine, Servo-arm, Stratagem: Field Commander [-1CP], Strategem: Master of the Forge [-1CP], The Eye of Hypnoth
You can drop the LT and give one of your characters the eye of hypnoth, its basically LT rerolls for shooting attacks, it ends up saving you how ever many points and consolidates your list slightly. The relic whirlwind can fire twice on its own, it has a special rule IIRC but it can't be targeted for the suppression fire strat.
Tome of Malcador isn't worth it on your librarian really, I understand wanting nullzone, but its not going to come into play often on a footslogging librarian due to its 6inch range and the AP -2 (which is most of what you have during heavy doctrine) won't care about most invulns. If you want your librarian getting into the thick of it, give him armour indomitus as it makes it incredibly difficult to kill (goes from a 3+ to a 2+/ Once per game, for the entire turn 3++)
If your deadset on getting a nullzone librarian, take a standard one and give him a jumppack and armour indomitus, keep him deployed on the board turn 1.
I didn't get any responds to my list thread, so I try here since I've been talking about the list here anyways. As discussed, Primaris White Scars with flyers:
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [43 PL, 6CP, 1,000pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot +
**Chapter Selection**: White Scars
>> Intercessors would ride those Impulsors, Kor'sarro and Lieutenant join them. Just mobile force that gets there in an aggressive style.
>> Incursors and Invictor Tactical Warsuits spread up on board a bit, Warsuits provide more aggression
>> Infiltrators are an unit on some flank on the board, just providing presence and hoping to hold their line and possibly secure an objective
>> Flyers do their thing. Unsure if they are optimised, hope you guys can help me.
Should be more than enough CP for strategems. Kind of thinking, if I should get librarians into this somehow. Help much appreciated. List aims to be winnable in a narrative campaign, most likely use them in local tourneys but I am not that obsessed about tournament winning. Not while being so fresh into the game.
I would skip Khan. Even for a melee army, he's too slow to really bring anything of worthwhile value. You could argue for the Bike one, but I don't have any idea how much he costs right now.
Odrankt wrote: Hey everyone. Just have a quick question to ask.
My brothers friend has gotten back into the hobby with his Imperial Fist army but he is kinda blown back by the Codex, Supplements and Psychic Awakening. He asked me if I could make him a 1k list but I don't play marines so have no idea how to make a list for them.
So, just wondering,can anyone recommend a 1k Casual-competive imperial Fist list for him to use. I know he has a lot of the older units and some of the newer stuff like the Primaris Marines from Dark Imperium and 1-2 redemptor dredos. He will more than likely be playing against my brother Tsons and Tzeetch daemons so the +1 damage doctorine won't have much affect but he like wysiwyg.
Thanks in-advance for the help.
if he tosses a redemptor dread onto the contents of dark Imperium he's pretty much got a 1000 point list I belive.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I would skip Khan. Even for a melee army, he's too slow to really bring anything of worthwhile value. You could argue for the Bike one, but I don't have any idea how much he costs right now.
I think he put Kosaro Khan and the Lieutenant in the impulsors. It may not be a bad idea. This list is basically "in your face" from Turn 1 with the Warsuit and incusors. Then the 2 Intercessors with TH follow up in 2nd Turn. But maybe the problem is, if facing a melee horde army, or Tau and being placed to go 2nd, his plan would likely fall apart.
Dynas wrote: I'm looking at imperial fist as well, mainly because I love a well painted yellow scheme. And I like the idea of defenders of terra. And they seem to be pretty competitive. Here is my list. I am a bit overwhelmed as well. There are so many relics and WLT and supplements. I read somewhere you can get like 4-7 WLT? and even have some characters with 2?! how is this done? Also, im not finding the Grey Shield thing in the Vigilus INdomitus Crusaders. It doesnt show in Battlescribe which leads me to think im doing something wrong.
Is this list to character heavy? I want the librarian and apocathary to go in the center of the cents and heal them up (and get the 5++) invul. Scouts are cheap obj secure bodies. Stalker bolt rifles for main gunline with Lt and Garadon. Tech Marine hangs out with the Thunderfire and whirlwinds. The thunderfire shoots twice. Can the Relic Whirlwind shoot twice? The keyword is "RELIC WHIRLWIND" but the stratagem is just whirlwind.
Primaris Librarian [5 PL, -1CP, 98pts]: 1) Tectonic Purge, 3) Null Zone, 4) Fortify, Force sword [8pts], Stratagem: Chief Librarian [-1CP], Tome of Malcador
Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, -1CP, 70pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant [4 PL, -1CP, 70pts]: Hand of Dorn, Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle [5pts], Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP]
Techmarine [4 PL, -2CP, 45pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Master of the Machine, Servo-arm, Stratagem: Field Commander [-1CP], Strategem: Master of the Forge [-1CP], The Eye of Hypnoth
You can drop the LT and give one of your characters the eye of hypnoth, its basically LT rerolls for shooting attacks, it ends up saving you how ever many points and consolidates your list slightly. The relic whirlwind can fire twice on its own, it has a special rule IIRC but it can't be targeted for the suppression fire strat.
Tome of Malcador isn't worth it on your librarian really, I understand wanting nullzone, but its not going to come into play often on a footslogging librarian due to its 6inch range and the AP -2 (which is most of what you have during heavy doctrine) won't care about most invulns. If you want your librarian getting into the thick of it, give him armour indomitus as it makes it incredibly difficult to kill (goes from a 3+ to a 2+/ Once per game, for the entire turn 3++)
If your deadset on getting a nullzone librarian, take a standard one and give him a jumppack and armour indomitus, keep him deployed on the board turn 1.
I was planning to just keep the librarian with the Centurions for the healing spell along with the Apothecary to really bring them back. Sort of like Resurrection Protocols necrons have. What spells would you take if I dripped the nullzone?
The Lt is in there to get the grey shield ability since i don't have a non named character captain. Also Lt was going to go with the Intercessors and the Eye go with the centurions. That way everyone is getting wound buffs.
I think he put Kosaro Khan and the Lieutenant in the impulsors. It may not be a bad idea. This list is basically "in your face" from Turn 1 with the Warsuit and incusors. Then the 2 Intercessors with TH follow up in 2nd Turn. But maybe the problem is, if facing a melee horde army, or Tau and being placed to go 2nd, his plan would likely fall apart.
Yeah you got it right. Horde army can indeed be a problem, meaning my target priorities need to be on point. Going in second is one problem. Unsure how to minimize risks with that.
I think he put Kosaro Khan and the Lieutenant in the impulsors. It may not be a bad idea. This list is basically "in your face" from Turn 1 with the Warsuit and incusors. Then the 2 Intercessors with TH follow up in 2nd Turn. But maybe the problem is, if facing a melee horde army, or Tau and being placed to go 2nd, his plan would likely fall apart.
Yeah you got it right. Horde army can indeed be a problem, meaning my target priorities need to be on point. Going in second is one problem. Unsure how to minimize risks with that.
The benefits of generic characters are much greater though than the wounding aura, especially with you not being able to charge out of the Impulsors anyway.
I refer to this as "The Hellblaster Rush" it has performed tremendously well TACTICS The Invictus warsuit I place right in front of as close as legally possible to the enemy, right in his face -distraction unit.. opponent MUST deal with , can not ignore
movement phase impulsors move 14", hellblasters dismount 3", hellblasters move 6" = 23" total movement, usualy places 99% of opposing force within rapidfire range of 20 hellblasters
shooting phase eliminators take out key support characters - focus on opposing space marine ancient to negate banner return fire, if none available, shoot at other supporting characters (priests, librarians, lieutenants ect ) hellblasters toss out 40 shots with full rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound
This tactic I have used does not depend on me going first, as opponent is forced to ignore the impulsors and focus on the warsuits however, IF I get to go first, the warsuits just add quite significant offensive capability
This army performs very well vs TAC lists, that being said, it is quite easy to create a specialized list to defeat this, but vs majority of generic take all comers lists in most events I have observed, this list performs exceptionally well
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [23 PL, 1CP, 474pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines Detachment CP [1CP]
+ HQ + Lieutenants in Phobos Armor [5 PL, 81pts] . Lieutenant in Phobos Armour . . Occulus Bolt Carbine and Bolt Pistol: Grav-chute, Master-crafted occulus bolt rifle
+ Elites + Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [57 PL, 2CP, 1,203pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines Battle-forged CP [3CP] Detachment CP [1CP]
+ HQ + Primaris Chapter Master [5 PL, -2CP, 86pts]: Adept of the Codex, Master-crafted auto bolt rifle, Power sword, Stratagem: Chapter Master, The Vox Espiritum, Warlord
Ok so I am trying to come up with a better name than smash captain for my salamanders warlord on bike.
Bike, Teeth of terra, anvil of strength, master of forge. That's 8 str 7 attacks at ap-2 2dmg on the charge on a t7 14" moving guy. Add might of heros for 9 str 8 t8.
I have been calling him a slash captain but it doesnt seem to fit his roll properly. Any suggestions?
Azuza001 wrote: Ok so I am trying to come up with a better name than smash captain for my salamanders warlord on bike.
Bike, Teeth of terra, anvil of strength, master of forge. That's 8 str 7 attacks at ap-2 2dmg on the charge on a t7 14" moving guy. Add might of heros for 9 str 8 t8.
I have been calling him a slash captain but it doesnt seem to fit his roll properly. Any suggestions?
Gunrunner1775 wrote: I refer to this as "The Hellblaster Rush"
it has performed tremendously well
TACTICS
The Invictus warsuit I place right in front of as close as legally possible to the enemy, right in his face
-distraction unit.. opponent MUST deal with , can not ignore
movement phase
impulsors move 14", hellblasters dismount 3", hellblasters move 6" = 23" total movement, usualy places 99% of opposing force within rapidfire range of 20 hellblasters
shooting phase
eliminators take out key support characters - focus on opposing space marine ancient to negate banner return fire, if none available, shoot at other supporting characters (priests, librarians, lieutenants ect )
hellblasters toss out 40 shots with full rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound
This tactic I have used does not depend on me going first, as opponent is forced to ignore the impulsors and focus on the warsuits
however, IF I get to go first, the warsuits just add quite significant offensive capability
This army performs very well vs TAC lists, that being said, it is quite easy to create a specialized list to defeat this, but vs majority of generic take all comers lists in most events I have observed, this list performs exceptionally well
Spoiler:
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [23 PL, 1CP, 474pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
Detachment CP [1CP]
+ HQ + Lieutenants in Phobos Armor [5 PL, 81pts] . Lieutenant in Phobos Armour . . Occulus Bolt Carbine and Bolt Pistol: Grav-chute, Master-crafted occulus bolt rifle
+ Elites + Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [57 PL, 2CP, 1,203pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
Battle-forged CP [3CP] Detachment CP [1CP]
+ HQ + Primaris Chapter Master [5 PL, -2CP, 86pts]: Adept of the Codex, Master-crafted auto bolt rifle, Power sword, Stratagem: Chapter Master, The Vox Espiritum, Warlord
Several guys at my local store were using Invictors to screen forward (but with the autocannon instead of the flamer), and they were all successful right after the unit/kit came out. But they all recently stopped and dropped their Invictors from their lists. I asked why, and one told me that everybody had figured out how to defeat the suits by tagging/wrapping them, and that the Invictors had become a liability because they gave up easy kills early in the game without accomplishing any effective screening. Because Invictors have so many wounds, a beefier unit (and also characters) can assault in and tripoint them without having to worry about accidentally killing the suit, then finish it off the following turn. So the suit provides a place where assault units can hide for a turn, and then slingshot off of, while also giving up a kill.
I haven't confirmed this for myself, but it seems like the kind of thing that common TAC lists could mostly do with available units. Tagging/wrapping the Invictors would allow all the big guns to shoot at impulsors in turns 1-2. With the shield domes, probably two impulsors would get through, but maybe half the hellblasters would get stranded where their impulsors blew up.
Gunrunner1775 wrote: I refer to this as "The Hellblaster Rush"
it has performed tremendously well
TACTICS
The Invictus warsuit I place right in front of as close as legally possible to the enemy, right in his face
-distraction unit.. opponent MUST deal with , can not ignore
movement phase
impulsors move 14", hellblasters dismount 3", hellblasters move 6" = 23" total movement, usualy places 99% of opposing force within rapidfire range of 20 hellblasters
shooting phase
eliminators take out key support characters - focus on opposing space marine ancient to negate banner return fire, if none available, shoot at other supporting characters (priests, librarians, lieutenants ect )
hellblasters toss out 40 shots with full rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound
This tactic I have used does not depend on me going first, as opponent is forced to ignore the impulsors and focus on the warsuits
however, IF I get to go first, the warsuits just add quite significant offensive capability
This army performs very well vs TAC lists, that being said, it is quite easy to create a specialized list to defeat this, but vs majority of generic take all comers lists in most events I have observed, this list performs exceptionally well
Spoiler:
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [23 PL, 1CP, 474pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
Detachment CP [1CP]
+ HQ + Lieutenants in Phobos Armor [5 PL, 81pts] . Lieutenant in Phobos Armour . . Occulus Bolt Carbine and Bolt Pistol: Grav-chute, Master-crafted occulus bolt rifle
+ Elites + Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [57 PL, 2CP, 1,203pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
Battle-forged CP [3CP] Detachment CP [1CP]
+ HQ + Primaris Chapter Master [5 PL, -2CP, 86pts]: Adept of the Codex, Master-crafted auto bolt rifle, Power sword, Stratagem: Chapter Master, The Vox Espiritum, Warlord
I run 3 flamer invictors in my salamanders army. I’ve yet to face an opponent who wasn’t completely fed up by them being in their face turn one. The sally strats and bonuses help put them over the top for me as an auto take.
Played my first game against Knights today with my crimson fists, it was an absolute massacre. I got the first turn and the firepower of an Imperial fist successor against a vehicle heavy army is devastating. I've had great success against death guard and admech who have been vehicle heavy but I've never played pure Knights.
My repulsor executioner almost one shorted a knight and then my invictor charged into the enemy causing havoc before being destroyed in combat and then exploding and causing allot of mortal wounds
I'm finding I'm just tabling everyone now with a pretty mid power list which is mainly intercessors and a smattering of dreads etc.
Heavy Support: 5x Devastators - 4 grav cannons
Drop Pod
1,197 pts
Warlord traits: Adept of Codex, Selfless healer, wise orator
Relic: Seal of Oath, Healers Aegis
Theme is to use the Aggressors as a ball of hate. Suppressors for some anti take, 12 shots with re-roll hits and wounds of 1. Seal of Oath to help too. Apothecary keeps the Aggressors alive. Stalker bolt rifles for first turn 36" -2AP. Grav-Dev turn 1 for a strategem or turn two.
Heavy Support: 5x Devastators - 4 grav cannons
Drop Pod
1,197 pts
Warlord traits: Adept of Codex, Selfless healer, wise orator
Relic: Seal of Oath, Healers Aegis
Theme is to use the Aggressors as a ball of hate. Suppressors for some anti take, 12 shots with re-roll hits and wounds of 1. Seal of Oath to help too. Apothecary keeps the Aggressors alive. Stalker bolt rifles for first turn 36" -2AP. Grav-Dev turn 1 for a strategem or turn two.
I think you forgot to add the storm bolter to the Dev Sgt.? Making you 1199pts instead of 1197pts. But outside of that, the list looks fine.
I think it's a hard choice to drop down the Droppod with Grav Dev squads in turn 1 or turn 2, if you drop down T1, you get the AP-4 but suffer -1 to hit, I think it is better to drop in T2 to avoid the -1 to hit, since AP-3 is enough for more than 70% of the time in my experience.
That list is pretty close to my salamanders list I run, except I put a squad of 10 thss terms in front of the aggressors to protect them and dont run suppressors.
It works really well, takes people forever to kill off the terms once you start staking buffs on them, but the reason I bring this up is once the terms are dead the aggressors die much too quickly. A big blob of 6 are just such a threat people are going to target them first. Be prepared for that as beyond the apothecary I dont see much in the way to protect them or get them up the field quickly. Good luck at the tournament!
Heavy Support: 5x Devastators - 4 grav cannons
Drop Pod
1,197 pts
Warlord traits: Adept of Codex, Selfless healer, wise orator
Relic: Seal of Oath, Healers Aegis
Theme is to use the Aggressors as a ball of hate. Suppressors for some anti take, 12 shots with re-roll hits and wounds of 1. Seal of Oath to help too. Apothecary keeps the Aggressors alive. Stalker bolt rifles for first turn 36" -2AP. Grav-Dev turn 1 for a strategem or turn two.
I think you forgot to add the storm bolter to the Dev Sgt.? Making you 1199pts instead of 1197pts. But outside of that, the list looks fine.
I think it's a hard choice to drop down the Droppod with Grav Dev squads in turn 1 or turn 2, if you drop down T1, you get the AP-4 but suffer -1 to hit, I think it is better to drop in T2 to avoid the -1 to hit, since AP-3 is enough for more than 70% of the time in my experience.
You can pod T1 while being in tactical doctrine with the correct stratagem
Azuza001 wrote:That list is pretty close to my salamanders list I run, except I put a squad of 10 thss terms in front of the aggressors to protect them and dont run suppressors.
It works really well, takes people forever to kill off the terms once you start staking buffs on them, but the reason I bring this up is once the terms are dead the aggressors die much too quickly. A big blob of 6 are just such a threat people are going to target them first. Be prepared for that as beyond the apothecary I dont see much in the way to protect them or get them up the field quickly. Good luck at the tournament!
My issue exactly, need something more "threatening" than the aggressors so they live a bit longer. The suppressors did alright at best but had to ensure they focus fired all 12 shots at a vehicle and even then, it wouldn't die.
Neophyte2012 wrote:
I think you forgot to add the storm bolter to the Dev Sgt.? Making you 1199pts instead of 1197pts. But outside of that, the list looks fine.
I think it's a hard choice to drop down the Droppod with Grav Dev squads in turn 1 or turn 2, if you drop down T1, you get the AP-4 but suffer -1 to hit, I think it is better to drop in T2 to avoid the -1 to hit, since AP-3 is enough for more than 70% of the time in my experience.
Very hard choice. If I don't go first turn, I'll drop it first turn. I'll drop it second if my first turn was decent. Agreed on the -3. At that point, heavier units tend to have inv saves anyway.
godardc wrote:
You can pod T1 while being in tactical doctrine with the correct stratagem
Right. It just depends on blowing another CP at that low points
What are thoughts on the relic contemptor dred with twin lascannon at 1200pts instead of the suppressors?
I know this thread is for Space Marine tactics but I was wondering if people here knew the best way to deal with Raven Guard as Tau, asking for my bro and I figured you guys would be the experts on Raven Guard and SM in general.
As for me, I was wondering what would be a good idea to buy next. Ive got about 20 intercessors, a bunch of HQ choices and a redemptor, the start collecting vanguard marines and enough infantry from other game systems to use as counts as for hellblasters/scouts etc but I was wondering what to get next? I was thinking of going for the invictor tactical warsuit some termies or maybe a FW dread?
Qyleterys wrote: I know this thread is for Space Marine tactics but I was wondering if people here knew the best way to deal with Raven Guard as Tau, asking for my bro and I figured you guys would be the experts on Raven Guard and SM in general.
As for me, I was wondering what would be a good idea to buy next. Ive got about 20 intercessors, a bunch of HQ choices and a redemptor, the start collecting vanguard marines and enough infantry from other game systems to use as counts as for hellblasters/scouts etc but I was wondering what to get next? I was thinking of going for the invictor tactical warsuit some termies or maybe a FW dread?
What was the Ravenguard running? 18 infiltrate / Deepstrike Assault Centurions? If so your friend's Tau may have some nuisance due to the 1+ armor save and -1 to hit and "in your face latest turn 2", other than that and IH Intercessors spam supported by Chief Apothecary, I don't think Tau have big difficulty in defeating space marine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Qyleterys wrote: I know this thread is for Space Marine tactics but I was wondering if people here knew the best way to deal with Raven Guard as Tau, asking for my bro and I figured you guys would be the experts on Raven Guard and SM in general.
As for me, I was wondering what would be a good idea to buy next. Ive got about 20 intercessors, a bunch of HQ choices and a redemptor, the start collecting vanguard marines and enough infantry from other game systems to use as counts as for hellblasters/scouts etc but I was wondering what to get next? I was thinking of going for the invictor tactical warsuit some termies or maybe a FW dread?
Go evil route to the two storm cannon Levithan, or Contemptor Mortis with two twin Lascannon, or a Chaplain Dread. That will give you great punch to be competitive. Terminators are still overpriced sadly.
Qyleterys wrote: I know this thread is for Space Marine tactics but I was wondering if people here knew the best way to deal with Raven Guard as Tau, asking for my bro and I figured you guys would be the experts on Raven Guard and SM in general.
As for me, I was wondering what would be a good idea to buy next. Ive got about 20 intercessors, a bunch of HQ choices and a redemptor, the start collecting vanguard marines and enough infantry from other game systems to use as counts as for hellblasters/scouts etc but I was wondering what to get next? I was thinking of going for the invictor tactical warsuit some termies or maybe a FW dread?
What was the Ravenguard running? 18 infiltrate / Deepstrike Assault Centurions? If so your friend's Tau may have some nuisance due to the 1+ armor save and -1 to hit and "in your face latest turn 2", other than that and IH Intercessors spam supported by Chief Apothecary, I don't think Tau have big difficulty in defeating space marine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Qyleterys wrote: I know this thread is for Space Marine tactics but I was wondering if people here knew the best way to deal with Raven Guard as Tau, asking for my bro and I figured you guys would be the experts on Raven Guard and SM in general.
As for me, I was wondering what would be a good idea to buy next. Ive got about 20 intercessors, a bunch of HQ choices and a redemptor, the start collecting vanguard marines and enough infantry from other game systems to use as counts as for hellblasters/scouts etc but I was wondering what to get next? I was thinking of going for the invictor tactical warsuit some termies or maybe a FW dread?
Go evil route to the two storm cannon Levithan, or Contemptor Mortis with two twin Lascannon, or a Chaplain Dread. That will give you great punch to be competitive. Terminators are still overpriced sadly.
The Raven Guard player was me actually, mostly infantry, some counts-as hellblasters and aggressors and a redemptor. He has a riptide some crisis suits a commander and a lot of infantry. His problem is more that his infantry can’t scratch a -1 to hit 2+ save 2W intercessor
fraser1191 wrote: What's a reliable way to remove a riptide once it gets its 3++ as Ultramarines?
I'll be honest I've been having too much trouble with this on my own and I need some outsourcing.
Run 18 Aggressors, Marneus, Lieutenant, Chaplain, Mark the Riptide with zeal of oath. Then bolt storm it to death. Your weapons will mostly be AP-1, perfect against 2+/3++.
Math tells a squad of 6 Aggressors averagely output 114 shots of S4 AP-1. Even with only Calgar and Lt., you are looking at average >39 wounds before Riptide making the saves. So on average it will inflict 13 unsaved wounds. With the further help of Chaplain buff, and/or even the relic. You will pretty reliably take out the Riptide in one round of shooting.
You may also consider spam the humble Tactical Squads as well. 5 men each, one HB and SBCS on the Sgt. Once you have 10+ such squads, Their firepower output is also astonishing under Tactical Doctrine and character buff.
Of course, keep your aggressors alive before they can fire That is the hard part when Ultramarine facing Tau.
fraser1191 wrote: What's a reliable way to remove a riptide once it gets its 3++ as Ultramarines?
I'll be honest I've been having too much trouble with this on my own and I need some outsourcing.
Run 18 Aggressors, Marneus, Lieutenant, Chaplain, Mark the Riptide with zeal of oath. Then bolt storm it to death. Your weapons will mostly be AP-1, perfect against 2+/3++.
Math tells a squad of 6 Aggressors averagely output 114 shots of S4 AP-1. Even with only Calgar and Lt., you are looking at average >39 wounds before Riptide making the saves. So on average it will inflict 13 unsaved wounds. With the further help of Chaplain buff, and/or even the relic. You will pretty reliably take out the Riptide in one round of shooting.
You may also consider spam the humble Tactical Squads as well. 5 men each, one HB and SBCS on the Sgt. Once you have 10+ such squads, Their firepower output is also astonishing under Tactical Doctrine and character buff.
Of course, keep your aggressors alive before they can fire That is the hard part when Ultramarine facing Tau.
A Jump Libby with Null Zone could also be of benefit. Tricky part will be getting him close enough.
fraser1191 wrote: What's a reliable way to remove a riptide once it gets its 3++ as Ultramarines?
I'll be honest I've been having too much trouble with this on my own and I need some outsourcing.
Run 18 Aggressors, Marneus, Lieutenant, Chaplain, Mark the Riptide with zeal of oath. Then bolt storm it to death. Your weapons will mostly be AP-1, perfect against 2+/3++.
Math tells a squad of 6 Aggressors averagely output 114 shots of S4 AP-1. Even with only Calgar and Lt., you are looking at average >39 wounds before Riptide making the saves. So on average it will inflict 13 unsaved wounds. With the further help of Chaplain buff, and/or even the relic. You will pretty reliably take out the Riptide in one round of shooting.
You may also consider spam the humble Tactical Squads as well. 5 men each, one HB and SBCS on the Sgt. Once you have 10+ such squads, Their firepower output is also astonishing under Tactical Doctrine and character buff.
Of course, keep your aggressors alive before they can fire That is the hard part when Ultramarine facing Tau.
A Jump Libby with Null Zone could also be of benefit. Tricky part will be getting him close enough.
Getting close enough is a recurring theme for me. This guy is not above gun lining me just to win. Aggressors would be the way to go but he'll just pop the repulsor with a fusion commander if I load them in one, and just gun line me if I foot slog.
Null zone is a no go since it would take me 2 turns to get to the riptide if he doesn't just move away, and I can't drop in and use it.
Honestly I've already told him that the riptide is too much for a casual game if he just keeps spamming branched Nova charge for the invuln and max shots, doesn't matter. We've yet to play a game with the new Tau PA book and but we've never had a game go to turn 3 before it.
Iirc the riptide is now the only high Toughness model with a 3++. They nerfed it for knights but this one is fine I guess?
fraser1191 wrote: What's a reliable way to remove a riptide once it gets its 3++ as Ultramarines?
I'll be honest I've been having too much trouble with this on my own and I need some outsourcing.
Run 18 Aggressors, Marneus, Lieutenant, Chaplain, Mark the Riptide with zeal of oath. Then bolt storm it to death. Your weapons will mostly be AP-1, perfect against 2+/3++.
Math tells a squad of 6 Aggressors averagely output 114 shots of S4 AP-1. Even with only Calgar and Lt., you are looking at average >39 wounds before Riptide making the saves. So on average it will inflict 13 unsaved wounds. With the further help of Chaplain buff, and/or even the relic. You will pretty reliably take out the Riptide in one round of shooting.
You may also consider spam the humble Tactical Squads as well. 5 men each, one HB and SBCS on the Sgt. Once you have 10+ such squads, Their firepower output is also astonishing under Tactical Doctrine and character buff.
Of course, keep your aggressors alive before they can fire That is the hard part when Ultramarine facing Tau.
A Jump Libby with Null Zone could also be of benefit. Tricky part will be getting him close enough.
Getting close enough is a recurring theme for me. This guy is not above gun lining me just to win. Aggressors would be the way to go but he'll just pop the repulsor with a fusion commander if I load them in one, and just gun line me if I foot slog.
Null zone is a no go since it would take me 2 turns to get to the riptide if he doesn't just move away, and I can't drop in and use it.
Honestly I've already told him that the riptide is too much for a casual game if he just keeps spamming branched Nova charge for the invuln and max shots, doesn't matter. We've yet to play a game with the new Tau PA book and but we've never had a game go to turn 3 before it.
Iirc the riptide is now the only high Toughness model with a 3++. They nerfed it for knights but this one is fine I guess?
Sorry for the slight rant
What systems does he run? I'm assuming ATS but whats the second one. How many drones does he run.
If he is not running target-lock (move and shoot w/o penalty) Make him move, get into CC (yes it can be done surprisingly) and force it to move. Now its hitting at a -1
If you're ultramarines, bring tiggy and MoH the repulsor (making it T9, the fusion commander is markedly less effective) and make it -1 to hit.
If the fusion commanders are consistently popping the repulsors, swap for redundant units like impulsors or rhinos. On average (w/o ml support, but overcharged) the riptide only does 4 damage to a rhino, making them excellent at soaking rounds from the riptides and then delivering people in close.
Also, do ultramarines have any targeted smites? Riptides can't pass saviour protocol on anything that doesn't have a wound roll. Hellfire shells/Flakk missiles for example bypass saviour protocols because they don't roll to wound. Anything that can do target mortal wounds without rolling to wound is pretty useful.
So if you bring a repulsor, heavy bolter, and ML you can put out 3d3 mortal wounds for 3 CP, toss in a couple psychic powers. Psychic scourge will add another d3 mortals, but will only be effective w/o an ethereal. 4d3 will cripple a riptide in one turn, then 3d3 (as the repulsors hunter slayer only fires once) should kill it the next.
Special points:
-Doctrines change , no matter you want it or not
-Dreadnought stratagem is now -1 damage, no cumulative
-IronHands intercessors can't tank wounds for vehicles
-No more infiltrating Centurions
The forced doctrine change is probably the biggest change IMO.
Special points:
-Doctrines change , no matter you want it or not
-Dreadnought stratagem is now -1 damage, no cumulative
-IronHands intercessors can't tank wounds for vehicles
-No more infiltrating Centurions
The forced doctrine change is probably the biggest change IMO.
Its honestly a well-needed correction. I don't have issues with it.
So now Ultramarines move with Heavy Weapons better than everyone else. Yay.
They could've made it so that the Strat wasn't deleted and could only be uses once per game to help keep things even between the two Doctrines but whatever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So now Ultramarines move with Heavy Weapons better than everyone else. Yay.
They could've made it so that the Strat wasn't deleted and could only be uses once per game to help keep things even between the two Doctrines but whatever.
Yes, I think UM and Sally get this hit lightest. They rely on Tac Doc., which they get to use Turn 2 and 3, and by Turn 4 the game is technically ended anyway.
UM is even better they got WLT and Strat letting them put units in their preferred Doc..
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So now Ultramarines move with Heavy Weapons better than everyone else. Yay.
They could've made it so that the Strat wasn't deleted and could only be uses once per game to help keep things even between the two Doctrines but whatever.
Yes, I think UM and Sally get this hit lightest. They rely on Tac Doc., which they get to use Turn 2 and 3, and by Turn 4 the game is technically ended anyway.
UM is even better they got WLT and Strat letting them put units in their preferred Doc..
TBF Ultramarines don't have the insane chapter tactics that IH have so if it's a case of rebalancing rather than rewriting rules then GW have got it right. My one concern is about raven guard deepstrike and repositioning shenanigans, that feels like it should have been limited to troops not just infantry (minus cents).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So now Ultramarines move with Heavy Weapons better than everyone else. Yay.
They could've made it so that the Strat wasn't deleted and could only be uses once per game to help keep things even between the two Doctrines but whatever.
Yes, I think UM and Sally get this hit lightest. They rely on Tac Doc., which they get to use Turn 2 and 3, and by Turn 4 the game is technically ended anyway.
UM is even better they got WLT and Strat letting them put units in their preferred Doc..
Raven Guard, actually. Lists that weren't using the Centurions like that weren't hit at all. Salamanders are still laughably bad so they really aren't taken into consideration.
IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).
The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.
Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.
DanielFM wrote: IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).
The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.
Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.
How is that poor balance ? Hit the strongest the hardest. The IH took already several needs while the IF were almost unscathed and now things are more even. They can't just delete the full IH supplement, they are clearly a very different army than D1 while the IF just lost two turn of doctrine.
I'm a fan of the changes, there is a lot more implicit interaction between players. The first step to beating IH/IF is too avoid to he T1 Alpha, which can be done. Then engage HARD afterwards. Feels more strategic now, which isn't really saying much given the servitor level brainpower required to play IH before.
I’m curious if RG will just start infiltrating Aggressors or not. Per point in a vacuum they are nearly as good, but that strat limit of 1 unit really meant you needed that 1 ultra beefy unit, not 2 units that together are as good. Also the rise of 3W targets meant Aggressor fists aren’t near as good as flat 3 from wasted hits.
As for lightest hit, the assault chapters clearly got even lighter than UM/salamanders, White Scars always wanted assault anyways.
I don't think assault centurions are going anywhere from a ravenguard list. You can still outflank them or give them a free t1 move. It's just your opponent will be able to react to them easier which is fair.
I think for RG, the Assualt Centurion still provides the best small arms platform, they have 1+Sv and -1 to hit due to Chater Trait. And 24" range 12 shots on the move plus 2D6 auto hit if enemy draws close enough (try to bypass their CT buff or try to charge them), compare to 18" 6+D6 shots to the Aggressor. Aggressors are better used in Ultramarine.
Yeah, I mistyped when I said Infiltrate instead of Ambush. I don't think anyone would deny that the Cent is still better than an Aggressor. And will probably stay that way given that errata nerf seems less likely GW is going to crank up the price on them. But still, presumably RG are still going to want to Ambush something...
Yeah, the amount of shots they put out is still impressive. It'll just be more of a pain to get into melee. It sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Stormravens coming back packing 4 Centurions?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah, the amount of shots they put out is still impressive. It'll just be more of a pain to get into melee. It sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Stormravens coming back packing 4 Centurions?
Sadly Storm Raven is too expensive imo. I think you can still Deep Strike the Centurion in RG army, if so, just drop the 320pts flyer and Deep Strike the Centurion.
They have different rolls completely. Also Assault centurions are typically taken with hurricane bolters and flamers from what I see, putting them at 52 pts a guy. The cheapest dev centurion is heavy bolters and hurricane bolters at 70 pts. But most importantly that assault centurion has siege drills for close combat, the devs dont. Personally the only way I could see using dev centurions are with twin las and a missile launcher, putting them at 110 pts a guy, but at that point you have to question if its worth it or not. I could see salamanders doing something with them making the d centurions untargetable but everyone else why not just take a dreadnaught with twin las and a missile launcher?
Has the recent nerf made Heavy Plasma Incinerators completely unviable again?
I was planning on building a squad because they look cool. I know they weren't as competitive as the rapid fire version, but with only 1 turn of doctrine bonus Vs 2 I'm not sure I can justify it even with rule of cool anymore.
I'm building an IF successor that's Primaris infantry only so the anti-tank power they brought was useful, and I play against a lot of T8 armour so I'm not sure what else will fill the gap?
DanielFM wrote: IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).
The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.
Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.
Bolter buff works in every phase (just take a mix of bolt weapons and remember basically everyone has a bolt pistol) and they ignore cover meaning turn 1 is more for cracking armour, then you thin the hordes, and even if you're charge you have exploding 6s with the pistols before you pinch back.
DanielFM wrote: IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).
The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.
Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.
Bolter buff works in every phase (just take a mix of bolt weapons and remember basically everyone has a bolt pistol) and they ignore cover meaning turn 1 is more for cracking armour, then you thin the hordes, and even if you're charge you have exploding 6s with the pistols before you pinch back.
I think the biggest problem with IF is how they were a one trick pony and the rest of their supplement is downright terrible.
They're also probably the most boring of the marine forces, tied to the main codex for their only source of decent tools. Their only good warlord trait is literally "you get D3 command points". Their only decent psychic power is "you heal D3 lost wounds". They received very little support in their own Supplement - CF ended up with more things than the parent chapter did. Whether that was because they were scraping the bottom of the barrel by the time they got to them, or they didn't want to invalidate the Specialist Detachment outright, who knows? Even Legacy of Dorn is downright boring as all hell, even if it was powerful. Now it's just boring and weak.
Too many of their rules are inexplicably tied to buildings, a unit that does not exist in 8th edition. Some of their cooler traits were just outright replaced with worse performing and extremely forgettable versions. The whole supplement is a waste of space - they are disjointed, underdeveloped, and severely underpowered now. Even the special character for the force doesn't even have a bolt weapon. He lacks a bolt weapon, in the army that is (for better or worse) built around bloody bolt weapons.
It was bound to happen - there's only so much you can do with marines - one of the flavours is going to have to be the dumping ground for copy paste effects when they run out of ideas. Seriously, there's a legit stratagem in there that is just the exploding bolter shots from the chapter tactic! How absolutely brain numbingly boring.
Lemondish wrote: Seriously, there's a legit stratagem in there that is just the exploding bolter shots from the chapter tactic! How absolutely brain numbingly boring.
Well, to that point several Chapters got a similar stratagem. It allows for successors to embody the tsctics of their primogenitors, and for the First Founding chapters to display true mastery. Iron Hands have a stratagem to Overwatch on 5s/4s, and Ultramarines have a stratagem to fall back and still be able to shoot, with/without -1 to hit.
Lemondish wrote: Seriously, there's a legit stratagem in there that is just the exploding bolter shots from the chapter tactic! How absolutely brain numbingly boring.
Well, to that point several Chapters got a similar stratagem. It allows for successors to embody the tsctics of their primogenitors, and for the First Founding chapters to display true mastery. Iron Hands have a stratagem to Overwatch on 5s/4s, and Ultramarines have a stratagem to fall back and still be able to shoot, with/without -1 to hit.
Fair point. I concede on that piece. Strike that from the long list of IF crap rules and we still end up with a long list of crap rules, though.
DanielFM wrote: IF got it the hardest IMHO.
They only got their (really powerful) superdoctrine. gakky stratagems, meh warlord traits and psychic powers. Now they have a single turn of benefits.
Iron Hands got a lot of shiny things on top of their super doctrine, and keep them (ok, no unkillable Dreads anymore).
The rest of the Chapters got almost unscathed.
Another example of the poor grasp of balance from GW.
Bolter buff works in every phase (just take a mix of bolt weapons and remember basically everyone has a bolt pistol) and they ignore cover meaning turn 1 is more for cracking armour, then you thin the hordes, and even if you're charge you have exploding 6s with the pistols before you pinch back.
I think the biggest problem with IF is how they were a one trick pony and the rest of their supplement is downright terrible.
They're also probably the most boring of the marine forces, tied to the main codex for their only source of decent tools. Their only good warlord trait is literally "you get D3 command points". Their only decent psychic power is "you heal D3 lost wounds". They received very little support in their own Supplement - CF ended up with more things than the parent chapter did. Whether that was because they were scraping the bottom of the barrel by the time they got to them, or they didn't want to invalidate the Specialist Detachment outright, who knows? Even Legacy of Dorn is downright boring as all hell, even if it was powerful. Now it's just boring and weak.
Too many of their rules are inexplicably tied to buildings, a unit that does not exist in 8th edition. Some of their cooler traits were just outright replaced with worse performing and extremely forgettable versions. The whole supplement is a waste of space - they are disjointed, underdeveloped, and severely underpowered now. Even the special character for the force doesn't even have a bolt weapon. He lacks a bolt weapon, in the army that is (for better or worse) built around bloody bolt weapons.
It was bound to happen - there's only so much you can do with marines - one of the flavours is going to have to be the dumping ground for copy paste effects when they run out of ideas. Seriously, there's a legit stratagem in there that is just the exploding bolter shots from the chapter tactic! How absolutely brain numbingly boring.
That...well that is a lot of opinion from the get go.
Lorewise IF are a codex chapter. One almost identical to the UM (possibly from over compensating from the Iron Cage, or a side effect of pulling hundreds of Astartes from multiple chapters to reform the chapter post-War of the Beast), but not completely. The few traits the IF have that differ are their marksmanship, the Feast of Blades, their seigecraft and being so stubborn that if they were tasked with headbutting their way through a void shield, the shield would give up first.
So this translates to their chapter trait buffing their bolters and allowing them to ignore cover (as they are so adept at dealing with the enemy's prepared positions they can shoot you like you're standing on open ground). The super doctrine reflects that.
Gameplaywise the army applies it's buffs to peel the opponent's defenses away, first by taking it's tanks, then by taking it's chaffe, and finally by striking the broken remnants in the heart. It's playstyle that rewards methodical forward movement, and a tactic I call "Dorn's Moving Castle" where you run small fire bunkers of Marines around a supporting piece. It's not the flashiest method of warfare, but it is a reliable one (also, exploding hits on 6s is almost the same as hitting on a 2+ with bolt weapons when you crunch numbers).
The "one trick" of maxing out your skew into the super doctrine wasn't the best way to play them, but it definitely was the most obvious. And even now taking extra indirect fire isn't bad as it can disrupt the enemy lines and ensure you can move more unimpeded. It's an army that can sieze ground fairly well due to it's offensive output and balances more defensive/static armies, as well as mechanized. Plus with the change to the army running more dedicated anti-armour/TEQ weapons is more rewarding than relying solely on spamming heavy bolters to solve your problems.
Some things worth using in almost any Imperial Fists list:
Warlord Traits:
Indominatable: To wound rolls of 1-3 auto-fail. Nice.
Stubborn Heroism: Take half damage (but can't fall back). Requires smart play, but good.
Architect of War: 6" bubble of reducing enemy attacks by 1AP, and improving cover saves by an extra 1. Definitely has uses.
Relics:
The Banner of Stagnada: 6" aura of +1 to hit in melee (great for late game, or for improving your counter-punch against melee armies, furthermore, since the IF have exploding dice on their bolt pistols they don't need to leave combat to do some decent shooting before punching the unit they're locked in combat with again, meaning they can grind units down in protracted combats since most units only hit hard on their first round of combat).
The Eye of Hypnoth: 6" reroll wounds for ranged attacks of 1. Put it on a Captain to reroll 1s to hit and wound on weapons like Lascannons, or Plasma Cannons for a more devastating barrage early in the game, or for making your shooting in general better (considering sticking it on a Chaplain who can buff your Overwatch to hitting on 5s or 6s for example).
Fist of Terra: Powerfist with a bonus attack and no to-hit penalty. -And- you can stick it on a Sergeant for a CP (Gift of the Phalanx). Quality right there.
Stratagems:
Bolster Defenses: great if you want a big unit of Heavy Hellblasters, Lascannon Devastators, or other important shooting unit. +1 Cover against most other armies is pretty solid.
Pain is a Lesson: 6+ FnP. A straight ~17% increase to survivability for a CP? Great on big, expensive units of basically anything.
Close-Range Bolter Fire: Turn your Auto Bolters into Pistol 3 and unload at close range (namely from inside of melee), possibly with bonuses if it's the Assualt Doctrine? Sign me up.
Bolter Drill: Double your free hits on 6s for IF is never bad. Stacks with the CT so it's great on high volume of fire units (hi, Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles).
Tank Hunters: Great at increasing your chances of wounding enemy armour. Anyone want to wound T8 on a 2+ with Lascannons?
Clearance Protocols: 10 models throwing Krak grenades or Frag Grenades? Situational, but useful.
Praetorian's Wrath: Only works on Turn 1 now, but it boosts all Grenade and Heavy weapon AP across the entire army. Good investment in general.
Tectonic Purge: Reduce the chances of being charged by reducing charge rolls by 2". Good for slowing down melee units so you can better shoot them in the face.
Fortify: Free healing. Not bad.
Aspect of Stone: +2 Strength/Toughness to the Psyker. Great for a more aggressive Psyker.
So yeah, maybe they won't break the game like the Iron Hands could, but there are solid options in the book too.
EDIT: And yes, the CF have it even better, but that doesn't make the IF themselves bad.
Architect of War: 6" bubble of reducing enemy attacks by 1AP, and improving cover saves by an extra 1. Definitely has uses.
It would, if there was such a Warlord Trait. Sadly, what this one actually does is improve cover saves by a 1 as long as the weapon being fired is AP -1 and the unit being targeted is receiving the benefit of cover.
I believe what you describe would have been an absolutely fantastic, flavourful, powerful, and fun tool. And that's part of my point - there's so many hoops to jump through to get a lot of these benefits, which makes them pretty weak all things considered. The above rant I went on absolutely is opinion - don't take it as anything but. And please don't think that because I just picked out this one piece you posted here that I ignored what you had to say - I haven't, I just decided not to quote the large post, no matter how well meaning and well constructed I felt it was.
You've provided a list of things that are certainly...there...but none of them are truly tools with anywhere near the same level of effectiveness as we've seen sprinkled all over the other supplements. If we're just comparing with one of the believed to be weaker supplements, the Salamanders, there is but one Stratagem for IF that might be at the same level as Flamecraft, Crucible of Battle, Strength of the Primarch, Self Sacrifice, Rise From the Ashes, or Relentless Determination. And it is limited to vehicles targets only.
There's certainly not a single item in this book that is at the same level as Seal of Oaths (UM Special-Issue), or Master of Ambush (RG trait), or the Ironstone (IH relic), or Ride the Winds (WS psychic power). You can dodge quite a few of the IF rules pretty easily, from Legacy of Dorn to the psychic power Wrack and Ruin. The one stratagem that can rank that high is from a completely different book entirely.
Even the Fist of Terra, a power fist, is a worse option than the Crimson Fists piece, and in a cruel twist of faith those Ork hating bastards can have both.
IF Supplement is not a very well written set of rules, from power to flavour to fun, and although I can't exactly claim this is objective truth on those last two bits, you'll soon see that the first part will almost certainly reign true.
Architect of War: 6" bubble of reducing enemy attacks by 1AP, and improving cover saves by an extra 1. Definitely has uses.
It would, if there was such a Warlord Trait. Sadly, what this one actually does is improve cover saves by a 1 as long as the weapon being fired is AP -1 and the unit being targeted is receiving the benefit of cover.
I believe what you describe would have been an absolutely fantastic, flavourful, powerful, and fun tool. And that's part of my point - there's so many hoops to jump through to get a lot of these benefits, which makes them pretty weak all things considered. The above rant I went on absolutely is opinion - don't take it as anything but. And please don't think that because I just picked out this one piece you posted here that I ignored what you had to say - I haven't, I just decided not to quote the large post, no matter how well meaning and well constructed I felt it was.
You've provided a list of things that are certainly...there...but none of them are truly tools with anywhere near the same level of effectiveness as we've seen sprinkled all over the other supplements. If we're just comparing with one of the believed to be weaker supplements, the Salamanders, there is but one Stratagem for IF that might be at the same level as Flamecraft, Crucible of Battle, Strength of the Primarch, Self Sacrifice, Rise From the Ashes, or Relentless Determination. And it is limited to vehicles targets only.
There's certainly not a single item in this book that is at the same level as Seal of Oaths (UM Special-Issue), or Master of Ambush (RG trait), or the Ironstone (IH relic), or Ride the Winds (WS psychic power). You can dodge quite a few of the IF rules pretty easily, from Legacy of Dorn to the psychic power Wrack and Ruin. The one stratagem that can rank that high is from a completely different book entirely.
Even the Fist of Terra, a power fist, is a worse option than the Crimson Fists piece, and in a cruel twist of faith those Ork hating bastards can have both.
IF Supplement is not a very well written set of rules, from power to flavour to fun, and although I can't exactly claim this is objective truth on those last two bits, you'll soon see that the first part will almost certainly reign true.
You're right, I misread the WT. Yeah, it's meh as they wrote it.
And I won't try and claim the Fists are going to light the world on fire, but they aren't -bad-. They have a solid, if a bit a bit plain, tool kit that can play rather solidly. If I were to describe them I'd say they sit in a "fat middle". They'll play a good game, but they're more of a middle table army, except against mechanized armies, but they aren't bad, they're just not bent going on broken (which is generally where the stuff on the top of the heap sit metawise).
But even as a Fists fan I'm not even working on playing them. Instead I've started work on Lamenters because I've played shooting heavy armies since 5th (shooty Endless Swarms, Sisters of Battle, a fairly shooty heavy 5th ed CSM) and I want to do something new.
Thoughts on Crimson fists with double repulsor? My 2k list is basically
Smash captain
Pedro
Primaris lieutenant
Techmarine (warlord)
5x Intercessors
1 X scouts
Relic contemptor with 4 lascannons
4 aggressors
2 X eliminators
Executioner
Normal repulsor with lascannons
??
I usually run a list similar to this but instead take an invictor warsuit and a ven dread with lascannons and ML. Only issue is it makes my list very static and a second repulsor could draw fire from the executioner and contemptor?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?
Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.
The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.
So I finally retired a 20 terminator list with an okay record (11-0-4 W/D/L)
Was running 10 shooty, 10 SS/TH as salamanders. I feel I did pretty well but it was a really bulky list to maneuver and in the end wasn't my style of list.
Still the Salamander terminators have some fun combos
2CP for Fury of the first and Crucible of battle for 40 bolters with +1 to hit +1 to wound and RR1's is pretty fun.
Stacking Fireshield, Drake Skin, and Self sacrifice on the assault terminators make them incredibly hard to shift and make the shooty terminators untargetable.
Wise Orator chaplain with canticles of hate and litany of faith is a must.
Teleport homers are worthless in almost all games because they are just so easy to remove.
Anyone else tried to make terminators competitive? My conclusion is that they're close but just not there.
Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.
Ignoring AP1 is pretty big deal on a 2+ and 2+/3++. Like I've found that alone has stopped them from getting wiped out by lootas or autocannon style weapons.
Have you tried running mass terminators as any of those, because frankly it sounds like your just speculating and going on your weird anti-sally tirade again.
I was looking for someone who has some play experience in the matter.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.
Ignoring AP1 is pretty big deal on a 2+ and 2+/3++. Like I've found that alone has stopped them from getting wiped out by lootas or autocannon style weapons.
Have you tried running mass terminators as any of those, because frankly it sounds like your just speculating and going on your weird anti-sally tirade again.
I was looking for someone who has some play experience in the matter.
Raven Guard is the same thing basically on a 2+, except it benefits the regular ones more the moment you run into AP-2. As well, having run mass Aggressors and Centurions, the things Terminators compete with in the first place, the same logic does apply. This has been done with Chapter variants on my end, so I am EXTREMELY confident in the statement i have given.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.
Ignoring AP1 is pretty big deal on a 2+ and 2+/3++. Like I've found that alone has stopped them from getting wiped out by lootas or autocannon style weapons.
Have you tried running mass terminators as any of those, because frankly it sounds like your just speculating and going on your weird anti-sally tirade again.
I was looking for someone who has some play experience in the matter.
Raven Guard is the same thing basically on a 2+, except it benefits the regular ones more the moment you run into AP-2. As well, having run mass Aggressors and Centurions, the things Terminators compete with in the first place, the same logic does apply. This has been done with Chapter variants on my end, so I am EXTREMELY confident in the statement i have given.
While terminators may compete with centurions/aggressors they don't act in the same. The same logic doesn't actually apply here.
Lets take the units you put forward
- Aggressors have a 3+ armor. This means that having cover and getting a 2+ is a massive benefit. This is not the same for terminators, especially for SS/TH variants
- DevCents are excellent shooters, but poor in CC. They want to (like aggressors) maintain range and therefore benefit more from the cover and -1 to hit. Terminators are a danger close unit, your paying for CC and you need to use to make points back. 12" isn't going to happen all the time (although it will still help with crossboard shooting true)
- Assault Cents have good shooting, excellent CC, but poor delivery methods (with the new restriction on FAQs) but in CC they don't get their cover save benefit, there are plenty of AP1 weapons where this actually matters.
Ravenguard has merit. The cover bonuses are great but they can also be worked around fairly easily.
Terminators may compete with the Aggressors/Cents, but they don't operate in the same manner. Your Logic isn't sound, neither is your statement. Assuming that Terminators must play like Aggressors and Centurions shows the lack of experience with the units.
And really, your going to tell me that giving 40 Boltshots and 4 Krak Missiles +1 to wound for 1 CP is not a good trade?
Anyways, has anyone who has actually played terminators have any other perspectives to add
I can say I plan to proxy some in for my Fists for the hell of it, especially now that the artillery and stalker bolt rifle gunline isn't as effective (thank Dorn, that playstyle was boring).
I'll share experiences, but my local is limited to 1200 point CA19 matches while I'm traveling for work. Probably won't be worth much for you.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.
Ignoring AP1 is pretty big deal on a 2+ and 2+/3++. Like I've found that alone has stopped them from getting wiped out by lootas or autocannon style weapons.
Have you tried running mass terminators as any of those, because frankly it sounds like your just speculating and going on your weird anti-sally tirade again.
I was looking for someone who has some play experience in the matter.
Raven Guard is the same thing basically on a 2+, except it benefits the regular ones more the moment you run into AP-2. As well, having run mass Aggressors and Centurions, the things Terminators compete with in the first place, the same logic does apply. This has been done with Chapter variants on my end, so I am EXTREMELY confident in the statement i have given.
While terminators may compete with centurions/aggressors they don't act in the same. The same logic doesn't actually apply here.
Lets take the units you put forward
- Aggressors have a 3+ armor. This means that having cover and getting a 2+ is a massive benefit. This is not the same for terminators, especially for SS/TH variants
- DevCents are excellent shooters, but poor in CC. They want to (like aggressors) maintain range and therefore benefit more from the cover and -1 to hit. Terminators are a danger close unit, your paying for CC and you need to use to make points back. 12" isn't going to happen all the time (although it will still help with crossboard shooting true)
- Assault Cents have good shooting, excellent CC, but poor delivery methods (with the new restriction on FAQs) but in CC they don't get their cover save benefit, there are plenty of AP1 weapons where this actually matters.
Ravenguard has merit. The cover bonuses are great but they can also be worked around fairly easily.
Terminators may compete with the Aggressors/Cents, but they don't operate in the same manner. Your Logic isn't sound, neither is your statement. Assuming that Terminators must play like Aggressors and Centurions shows the lack of experience with the units.
And really, your going to tell me that giving 40 Boltshots and 4 Krak Missiles +1 to wound for 1 CP is not a good trade?
Anyways, has anyone who has actually played terminators have any other perspectives to add
The units are absolutely comparable. They're supposed to be survivable (which is debatable but it is how GW sees them), they throw out a bunch of Bolter shots for the points (which is again debatable on the Terminator end) and lastly they strike at a higher Strength value with fists/drills. The only difference is different deployment how efficient said units actually are.
Terminators only have the natural Deep Strike, which isn't too much an advantage since multiple Chapters have ways to fix deployment and make units go places. Ultramarines for example can redeploy three units for a measly 2CP. If you wanted to take advantage of that natural Deep Strike you gotta wait until T2. So yeah it's pretty easy to make the comparison as much as you want to deny it for whatever reason.
Also no being stuck as Salamanders to get +1 to wound for a unit is not worth the trade off of having the utility of any other Chapter.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.
Ignoring AP1 is pretty big deal on a 2+ and 2+/3++. Like I've found that alone has stopped them from getting wiped out by lootas or autocannon style weapons.
Have you tried running mass terminators as any of those, because frankly it sounds like your just speculating and going on your weird anti-sally tirade again.
I was looking for someone who has some play experience in the matter.
Raven Guard is the same thing basically on a 2+, except it benefits the regular ones more the moment you run into AP-2. As well, having run mass Aggressors and Centurions, the things Terminators compete with in the first place, the same logic does apply. This has been done with Chapter variants on my end, so I am EXTREMELY confident in the statement i have given.
While terminators may compete with centurions/aggressors they don't act in the same. The same logic doesn't actually apply here.
Lets take the units you put forward
- Aggressors have a 3+ armor. This means that having cover and getting a 2+ is a massive benefit. This is not the same for terminators, especially for SS/TH variants
- DevCents are excellent shooters, but poor in CC. They want to (like aggressors) maintain range and therefore benefit more from the cover and -1 to hit. Terminators are a danger close unit, your paying for CC and you need to use to make points back. 12" isn't going to happen all the time (although it will still help with crossboard shooting true)
- Assault Cents have good shooting, excellent CC, but poor delivery methods (with the new restriction on FAQs) but in CC they don't get their cover save benefit, there are plenty of AP1 weapons where this actually matters.
Ravenguard has merit. The cover bonuses are great but they can also be worked around fairly easily.
Terminators may compete with the Aggressors/Cents, but they don't operate in the same manner. Your Logic isn't sound, neither is your statement. Assuming that Terminators must play like Aggressors and Centurions shows the lack of experience with the units.
And really, your going to tell me that giving 40 Boltshots and 4 Krak Missiles +1 to wound for 1 CP is not a good trade?
Anyways, has anyone who has actually played terminators have any other perspectives to add
The units are absolutely comparable. They're supposed to be survivable (which is debatable but it is how GW sees them), they throw out a bunch of Bolter shots for the points (which is again debatable on the Terminator end) and lastly they strike at a higher Strength value with fists/drills. The only difference is different deployment how efficient said units actually are.
Terminators only have the natural Deep Strike, which isn't too much an advantage since multiple Chapters have ways to fix deployment and make units go places. Ultramarines for example can redeploy three units for a measly 2CP. If you wanted to take advantage of that natural Deep Strike you gotta wait until T2. So yeah it's pretty easy to make the comparison as much as you want to deny it for whatever reason.
Also no being stuck as Salamanders to get +1 to wound for a unit is not worth the trade off of having the utility of any other Chapter.
Deepstriking on the board T2 isn't equal to redeploying in deployment. Assuming they are is another indicator of a lack of experience with the units, because A) they can't get shot at (nor can they shoot) if they aren't on the board and B) they can't react to enemy movement pass the first turn.
Between not actually refuting the fact that Terminators operate differently and assuming that First Turn Redeploy is similar enough to DS really shows a lack of understanding on game mechanics.
But that's beyond the point, I'm interested in new perspectives when it comes to stuff like this (which your 'Salamanders suck' is stale, and has failed to convince pretty much anyone on this board)
So I'll give you another chance and frame this more like a challenge -
Pick whatever chapter you like, and see what you can do with them rules wise. And I'll compare them to what I can do with mine. I'm legitimately curious to see what you come up with.
Also @ Lemondish, GL and don't forget that sweet CQB Bolter Strat on them if they ever get stuck in.
Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.
Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.
It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.
It's not exactly the same but I was very surprised when IF centurions that I has assaulted just shooted in assault thanks to their stratagem: even devastator centurions can be surprisingly good in assault if they can shoot ! :p
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.
Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.
It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.
Oooh I like that, Terminators really do excel when the enemy can get stuck in, and this really does get in their face and locks stuff down. What are the restrictions on the no escape stratagem?
5++ FNP against mortals is also necessary. I've lost more terminators to mortal wounds than all other weapons combined, so having the default 5+ FNP really helps.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.
Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.
It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.
Know what else gets into the opponent's screening units? Artillery. TFCs are already a unit that should be taken, and the Scorpius will have the requirement met of taking another Elite slot. Could do regular Whirlwinds as well but meh.
I run 10 assault terminators (th / ss) and 6 aggressors in my salamander list myself. I make them a successor chapter for extra 3" range and master artisans then walk them up the middle of the table. Terms get +1 toughness and -1 to hit cast on them from a lib while a chaplain is there to grant +1 to wound on the aggressors. Finally master apothecary gives them all a 6+++ and the aggressors a 5++ with the terms using the salamander defensive strat to protect the aggressors.
It's expensive and slow (I also play death guard so I am ok with playing a slow, methodical list style) but t2 that squad typically has the center of the table and nothing wants to go near it or deep strike near them. 11" flamers from the aggressors that can get a maximum of +3 to wound at ap -1 thanks to doctines.... that's an incredibly nasty overwatch or auspex scan waiting to hit. Only downside I have found is its cp intensive and if someone brings along something to mess with your cp like an assassin or raven guard it can get harder to pull off.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.
Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.
It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.
Know what else gets into the opponent's screening units? Artillery. TFCs are already a unit that should be taken, and the Scorpius will have the requirement met of taking another Elite slot. Could do regular Whirlwinds as well but meh.
You know, it would have taken you less effort to not post that at all than pointing out what everyone already knows. None of those units are Terminators. The discussion isn't about optimizing the list to the greatest extent, because if it were "don't take Terminators" is all that has to be said.
Plus, tying up multiple enemy units in melee on turn 1 is a whole different dynamic than just shooting them off the board with artillery. TFCs and Scorpiuses aren't threatening to tie up your big guns on turn 2.
Then again, you don't recognize anything other than min-maxing as a tactical discussion, so this is going nowhere.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.
Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.
It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.
Oooh I like that, Terminators really do excel when the enemy can get stuck in, and this really does get in their face and locks stuff down. What are the restrictions on the no escape stratagem?
5++ FNP against mortals is also necessary. I've lost more terminators to mortal wounds than all other weapons combined, so having the default 5+ FNP really helps.
2 CP, "Use this Stratagem in the Movement phase, when an enemy INFANTRY unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield ROle and is within 1" of any BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?
Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.
The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.
/rant
You actually understand the state of IFs. Seeing beyond the "IF super doctrine was OP, you can't complaint" is a rare sight.
Played a 2k tournament this weekend with my crimson fists and things did not go well, lost 1-1-4 being my final score.
Made a few conclusions, venerable dreadnoughts are a bit crap might as well spend the points on another invictor who are great.
Eliminators need to be maxed out ! Only took 2 squads and they were absolutely class. Killing multiple characters and blowing up a few vehicles which were chugging along too.
Infiltrators are a waste of time and points, so expensive and they just sit there doing nothing
Scouts are an easy kill point for the enemy and skills be deployed at the back!
Obviously to most experienced tournament players this stuff will be bread and butter but to me it was a great learning curve.
Crimson Fists aren't a good Chapter to begin with, so that's part of your problem. Their bonus to hit is too specific and relies on the opponent's army choice AND composition. That's not a good combination. Running them as generic Imperial Fists successors choosing to Ignore Cover is awesome if you're doing a lot of Intercessors. Also Ven Dreads aren't bad, you're simply using them poorly is my guess.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Played a 2k tournament this weekend with my crimson fists and things did not go well, lost 1-1-4 being my final score.
Made a few conclusions, venerable dreadnoughts are a bit crap might as well spend the points on another invictor who are great.
Eliminators need to be maxed out ! Only took 2 squads and they were absolutely class. Killing multiple characters and blowing up a few vehicles which were chugging along too.
Infiltrators are a waste of time and points, so expensive and they just sit there doing nothing
Scouts are an easy kill point for the enemy and skills be deployed at the back!
Obviously to most experienced tournament players this stuff will be bread and butter but to me it was a great learning curve.
Not sure why you'd think experienced tournament players would agree here. Infiltrators and scouts are some pretty common mainstays for good reason.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists aren't a good Chapter to begin with, so that's part of your problem. Their bonus to hit is too specific and relies on the opponent's army choice AND composition. That's not a good combination. Running them as generic Imperial Fists successors choosing to Ignore Cover is awesome if you're doing a lot of Intercessors. Also Ven Dreads aren't bad, you're simply using them poorly is my guess.
What did the list actually look like?
Smash captain Reid powerfist and imperium's sword
Pedro
Primaris lieutenant
Techmarine (warlord)
4 X 5 intercessors (2 with stalkers 2 with bolt rifles)
1 X 5 infiltrators
1 X 5 scouts
Relic contemptor with 4 lascannons
5 aggressors
2 X eliminators
Invictor warsuit
Venerable dread with lascannons and ml Repulsor executioner heavy laser
The real problems I was having was that the infiltrators do zero damage and I never know to forward deploy then or to put them in my deployment zone to stop deep strike. My scouts I used badly and kept forward splitting then to grab midfield objectives but they always die rapidly.
Venerable dread I normally love but it just didn't do enough damage.
By far the best 3 units were
Smash captain with relic PF. He was an absolute monster starting in the board then flying out and murdering everything, his kill tally was impressive, think I need more units like him that can move quick.
Eliminators were one of the most effective units by killing multiple characters and even popping a gorkanaught causing it to blow up and kill 3 trukks and a defkopta. One hundred percent including a third unit in the army.
Third would be between the aggressors and the repulsor who were both great.
Things I'm going change -
- Drop the infiltrators, techmarine with master of the forge, venerable dread and scouts. This would force me to simply take a battalion and vanguard rather than double battalion. However I felt most of the CP I used weren't that well spent anyways so I don't mind having less.
- Added to the list - third squad of eliminators, another invictor warsuit so I've got 2 running around at the start of the game. A second aggressor squad is going into the list and finally I'll try to boost one of the intercessor squads up with the remaining points so I can hold objectives better.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?
Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.
The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.
/rant
You actually understand the state of IFs. Seeing beyond the "IF super doctrine was OP, you can't complaint" is a rare sight.
IF Incepters, Indominus Crusade Detachment, Greyshields WLT, Add Crimson Fist CT for a turn, for double exploding 6s, then Bolter drill for another.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists aren't a good Chapter to begin with, so that's part of your problem. Their bonus to hit is too specific and relies on the opponent's army choice AND composition. That's not a good combination. Running them as generic Imperial Fists successors choosing to Ignore Cover is awesome if you're doing a lot of Intercessors. Also Ven Dreads aren't bad, you're simply using them poorly is my guess.
What did the list actually look like?
Smash captain Reid powerfist and imperium's sword
Pedro
Primaris lieutenant
Techmarine (warlord)
4 X 5 intercessors (2 with stalkers 2 with bolt rifles)
1 X 5 infiltrators
1 X 5 scouts
Relic contemptor with 4 lascannons
5 aggressors
2 X eliminators
Invictor warsuit
Venerable dread with lascannons and ml Repulsor executioner heavy laser
The real problems I was having was that the infiltrators do zero damage and I never know to forward deploy then or to put them in my deployment zone to stop deep strike. My scouts I used badly and kept forward splitting then to grab midfield objectives but they always die rapidly.
Venerable dread I normally love but it just didn't do enough damage.
By far the best 3 units were
Smash captain with relic PF. He was an absolute monster starting in the board then flying out and murdering everything, his kill tally was impressive, think I need more units like him that can move quick.
Eliminators were one of the most effective units by killing multiple characters and even popping a gorkanaught causing it to blow up and kill 3 trukks and a defkopta. One hundred percent including a third unit in the army.
Third would be between the aggressors and the repulsor who were both great.
Things I'm going change -
- Drop the infiltrators, techmarine with master of the forge, venerable dread and scouts. This would force me to simply take a battalion and vanguard rather than double battalion. However I felt most of the CP I used weren't that well spent anyways so I don't mind having less.
- Added to the list - third squad of eliminators, another invictor warsuit so I've got 2 running around at the start of the game. A second aggressor squad is going into the list and finally I'll try to boost one of the intercessor squads up with the remaining points so I can hold objectives better.
Hmm, about what I expected. My notes to try and keep things the same are:
1. Autobolt for the Intercessors instead of the Stalkers. Take advantage of exploding 6s.
2. If you don't face too many Deep striking armies, you cam exchange the Infiltrators for extra Scouts.
3. You're going into Double Battalion. While our HQ dudes are good, the Techmarine doesn't help much. Repairing doesn't work when the opponent will just utterly kill a vehicle one at a time. Iron Hands are the exception as they can bring stuff up two brackets sometimes without too much investment. Lose the Techmarine.
Hey, what ever happened to using those Inquisitor psykers in Marine lists? It was the hot idea for like 1 week and then I've never seen a single list doing it. Were they determined not good, FAQed to break doctrines, everyone doing best in faction needing pure lists...what?
bort wrote: Hey, what ever happened to using those Inquisitor psykers in Marine lists? It was the hot idea for like 1 week and then I've never seen a single list doing it. Were they determined not good, FAQed to break doctrines, everyone doing best in faction needing pure lists...what?
They don't break doctrines for sure so not that at least.
bort wrote: Hey, what ever happened to using those Inquisitor psykers in Marine lists? It was the hot idea for like 1 week and then I've never seen a single list doing it. Were they determined not good, FAQed to break doctrines, everyone doing best in faction needing pure lists...what?
I know for me it becomes a fluff issue. There are just not that many chapters, in the grand scheme of things, that would pal around with their primarily rivals for supremacy in being beholden only to the Emperor.
Black Templars Assault Centurions and a Chaplain. Run Assault Centurions forward turn 1 (4+3.5"), pop Devout Push (+6" since Chaplain's using the litany), pop Devout Push again in enemy Fight Phase (+6" again). You've now got your Assault Centurions in position for T2 to start doing nasty things. Add Apothecary and/or extra Chaplain for 5++ or 5+++ saves, add the 4+ invuln relic, etc. etc. We've seen what Assault Centurions can do, would this be decent enough?
Could use it on Aggressors as well, but why would you when Assault Cents exist?
Thoughts on inceptors?? Really think my list lacks something that can attack then enemy in the backfield and cause problems.
Thinking of putting in a squad of 4 will bolters and a squad of 3 plasmas into my army and dropping them in with my smash captain turn 2 and just causing havoc in the backfield.
