Are gw's rules for dreadnought bad? Competitively maybe. They have gotten a lot better with the base point drops each chapter approved. The units themselves are fine to a point. Iron hands makes them very good. Just taking 2 regular dreads now in iron hands with Las cannons and missiles making them chrs makes you a firebase that's pretty hard to reach. Plus hitting on 3's rerolling 1's? Not a bad option at all.
However they are not so cheap they are auto include, not so good there are no other units that can replace them, and not so tough that they can't be killed. To me this puts them in semi competitive territory. If you like them you can get a lot from them. If you don't your not losing anything that could not be found from another unit.
Forgeworld is a different story all together. I seriously don't think forgeworld is broken. I think the issue comes down to not enough people actually play with it or against it enough to know what the units do, which leads to you feeling like you have been gotten when the unit does something nasty that you didn't expect, or survives something a normal dread wouldn't. That and it's not as easy to get ahold of the units and rules.
Taking piracy out of the equation many people can't or don't want to buy from gw directly and that's really the only way to get forgeworld stuff a lot of the time. Many local game stores don't want to use forgeworld because their business is selling. If they run tournaments and new people come in and see these amazing awesome looking models they may want to go buy some. Then to be told you can't buy them here, you have to go online only, then the store is losing money. I mean if I have to go online to buy the models why not buy everything at once online?
So the store puts a no forgeworld at tournaments policy in place. No big deal, but this leads to the first problem. If I can't use my stuff in tournaments that I regularly go to why would I buy the forgeworld in the first place?
Again I think forgeworld is fine. Sure there can be rules issues that pop up due to these crazy weapons no one actually ever sees until this one guy with this one chapter tactic and one strat did this crazy thing and suddenly forgeworld is op.... but that's more of a urban legend situation.
Maybe this thread should be renamed, "IH Leviathans: Broken or Not?"
There are other chapters in the game, including one (Raven Guard) that specializes at sniping characters in the open. Have you seen the profile for Ex Tenebris? Did you notice that Eliminators don't need LoS?
How long will a strategy work when it requires an Iron Father to be standing around outside his transport? IH vehicles become a lot less durable without the 5++ bubble and the repairs.
They do have that martyrdom strat though. That one char might take 2 turns to go down which is long enough.
What I’m wondering about now is are Executioners really that great or not? Of course right now they seem clear winners, big AT that is tough to kill in an aura. But, the very same numbers also prove how mediocre they are for the mirror match and it’s safe to assume there will be a lot of mirror matches shortly.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Maybe this thread should be renamed, "IH Leviathans: Broken or Not?"
There are other chapters in the game, including one (Raven Guard) that specializes at sniping characters in the open. Have you seen the profile for Ex Tenebris? Did you notice that Eliminators don't need LoS?
How long will a strategy work when it requires an Iron Father to be standing around outside his transport? IH vehicles become a lot less durable without the 5++ bubble and the repairs.
Even the Leviathan.
We're talking about a T5, 7 wound Character with a 2+, 5++, 5+++ and a Grot shield made out of Intercessors.
Even without the Grot shield you need like 7 rounds of shooting with Eliminators to do him in out of LoS.
stratigo wrote: Note that no iron hands character should ever be in line of sight. They’re smaller than a tank
Today's Frontline podcast actually mentioned this exact case as they noted to remember that Repulsors hover and can be shot under to hit characters behind them.
stratigo wrote: Note that no iron hands character should ever be in line of sight. They’re smaller than a tank
Today's Frontline podcast actually mentioned this exact case as they noted to remember that Repulsors hover and can be shot under to hit characters behind them.
This has been keeping me up at night. like what if i put some rocks under there..
Today's Frontline podcast actually mentioned this exact case as they noted to remember that Repulsors hover and can be shot under to hit characters behind them.
Well, you can technically see under almost all vehicles in 40K. Yet most people don't try to shoot you through the gaps in Rhino's tracks. But yeah, technically true.
Today's Frontline podcast actually mentioned this exact case as they noted to remember that Repulsors hover and can be shot under to hit characters behind them.
Well, you can technically see under almost all vehicles in 40K. Yet most people don't try to shoot you through the gaps in Rhino's tracks. But yeah, technically true.
Yeah, I guess the Repulsors do hover a bit, but it does seem kinda pushing that true LOS rather hard in a setting where most people would rather have nicely posed models than standing stiffly with arms tucked in to be as hard to see as possible. I had planned to use Impulsors to block LOS if I took them, but guess not if people are going to shoot under them...
Flavius Infernus wrote: Maybe this thread should be renamed, "IH Leviathans: Broken or Not?"
There are other chapters in the game, including one (Raven Guard) that specializes at sniping characters in the open. Have you seen the profile for Ex Tenebris? Did you notice that Eliminators don't need LoS?
How long will a strategy work when it requires an Iron Father to be standing around outside his transport? IH vehicles become a lot less durable without the 5++ bubble and the repairs.
Today's Frontline podcast actually mentioned this exact case as they noted to remember that Repulsors hover and can be shot under to hit characters behind them.
Well, you can technically see under almost all vehicles in 40K. Yet most people don't try to shoot you through the gaps in Rhino's tracks. But yeah, technically true.
Yeah, I guess the Repulsors do hover a bit, but it does seem kinda pushing that true LOS rather hard in a setting where most people would rather have nicely posed models than standing stiffly with arms tucked in to be as hard to see as possible. I had planned to use Impulsors to block LOS if I took them, but guess not if people are going to shoot under them...
Snipers usually are positioned on high ground, which means they cant see through a gap below hover vehicles.
I'm thinking of an Ultras list which runs pure dakka, probably 300+ bolt rounds in turn 2. Combined with IF tactic for exploding 6s could be very nice, but is it worth 2cps?
stratigo wrote: Note that no iron hands character should ever be in line of sight. They’re smaller than a tank
Today's Frontline podcast actually mentioned this exact case as they noted to remember that Repulsors hover and can be shot under to hit characters behind them.
The gap is rather small, depending on the angle of the attacking unit, it very well might not see. Ultimately razorbacks do the job, and you're gonna see a fair few of those too.
For Iron Hands I think the improvements to Repulsors and maybe Redemptors stand out more than the Leviathan's. Any Leviathan with -50% damage taken is insanely hard to kill, not just an Iron Hands one.
But the repulsor and redemptor both gain a 5++. The redemptor gets to move and shoot without penalty, making it far better at crossing the board. It ends up being not all that much less tough than a leviathan, for about half the price.
The overall effect is that an Iron Hands gunline is able to survive going second against another gunline. That's a huge benefit. Once you factor in the 5++, 6+++ and Ironstone that parking lot takes less than half as much damage than another army would take against a lot of weapons. The Ironstone is particularly strong in a meta featuring a lot of D2 weapons.
Someone has already won a RTT now with 3 IH executioners and 3 redemptors. It's now an army you need to be able to beat if you expect to win a tournament.
But the repulsor and redemptor both gain a 5++. The redemptor gets to move and shoot without penalty, making it far better at crossing the board. It ends up being not all that much less tough than a leviathan, for about half the price.
.
T7 W13 3+ 5++ is a lot less tough than T8 W14 2+ 4++.
But the repulsor and redemptor both gain a 5++. The redemptor gets to move and shoot without penalty, making it far better at crossing the board. It ends up being not all that much less tough than a leviathan, for about half the price.
.
T7 W13 3+ 5++ is a lot less tough than T8 W14 2+ 4++.
Right, obviously, but not the point I'm trying to make.
Iron hands rules make leviathans more or less immortal - but they are already very tough models. An ultramarine leviathan also has a 2+/4++ and the same strat to halve damage. It gains nothing from Feirros' 5++ aura. It does benefit from the FNP and Iron Stone though, and Feirros' repairs. But an ultramarine one can fall back and shoot and an Imperial Fist one looks like it'll do more damage with heavy weapons - if the rumours are true. So there are good reasons why you might choose to run leviathans as another chapter.
But things like repulsors and redemptors gain a 5++ where they had nothing. And rather than being a >300pt model that can be tagged in combat and taken out of the game, the redemptor costs half as much and can hit back, while the repulsor is very difficult to charge and can fly away regardless.
In the end I'd be a lot happier to face an Iron Hands leviathan than repulsor executioner. The leviathan's range and inability to fall back and shoot make it quite vulnerable to being taken out of the game. You can only do that to a repulsor by killing it. An Iron Hands redemptor upgraded to a character with Student of History warlord trait is sort of unreasonable.
But the repulsor and redemptor both gain a 5++. The redemptor gets to move and shoot without penalty, making it far better at crossing the board. It ends up being not all that much less tough than a leviathan, for about half the price.
.
T7 W13 3+ 5++ is a lot less tough than T8 W14 2+ 4++.
When the same points gets you T7 W26 3+, 5++ vrs T8 W14 2+,4++ it's not the massive difference your making it out to be.
It costs about as much as a Knight with none of the survivability and anything not Ultramarines just gets tied up in melee indefinitely.
It's a good unit but hardly broken. It only appears broken because a lot of the Dread options are actually just terrible and always have been. There's a distinction ya know.
Hyperbole without factual framing does not constitute evidence, friend, but your bumptious opinion is noted.
It costs about as much as a Knight with none of the survivability and anything not Ultramarines just gets tied up in melee indefinitely.
It's a good unit but hardly broken. It only appears broken because a lot of the Dread options are actually just terrible and always have been. There's a distinction ya know.
Hyperbole without factual framing does not constitute evidence, friend, but your bumptious opinion is noted.
Slayer Fan isn't wrong about melee being a problem for Leviathans. It's clearly their weakness and it's the main reason I don't like them.
I took a leviathan to last year's LGT with my Crimson Fists - who were obviously a lot worse then than they are now. I found it pretty awkward to use. The combination of a short-ish range, not wanting to be in cc ever and LoS-blocking terrain was a real problem. Some turns it couldn't see anything to shoot and it did get tied up quite a lot. You have seriously fast units coming at you, plenty of which can charge after starting a turn outside the leviathan's range, some without even letting you overwatch. It did also kill a fair number of things with overwatch to be fair, and didn't get killed much.
Left unmolested the leviathan did great work for me. It certainly wasn't an awful unit and I went 3:2 in the end, so not too bad. But I do remember that opponents could frustrate it.
This doesn't really happen with repulsors. I found that if I had a repulsor or two kicking around in mid to late game, I was in great shape for a win. They just keep firing dakka until every enemy model is removed - and this was normal repulsors, not the new executioners.
Can't wait to get the proper rules for my Crimson Fists so I can finally start making proper lists for them. I took knights instead to the LGT this year and went 5:0, but I'm not at all confident my list would win vs Iron Hands. I'd be in good shape if I went first and zerged them with all four knights I think.
I will say that, so far, Raven Guard look the most interesting army to me, at least for ITC format with lots of LoS blockers. If you were playing at Warhammer World (with more open lines of sight) the Iron Hands would probably take it.
If I were to run IH I’m thinking I’d use maybe 2 executioners and 3 redemptors as my Feirros firebase core and save the rest of the points for troops and screens...But since I own 0 of any of those vehicles, this might make the choice to play RG for me :p
JNAProductions wrote: Like reroll all failed hits AND wounds? For all units in a 6” bubble? With more buffs besides?
Well they nerfed that. Then introduced more broken auras. Like -1 damage.
The idea has always been to combine the most broken GW and FW stuff to create unintended interactions which dominate the game. This has always been popular.
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bort wrote: If I were to run IH I’m thinking I’d use maybe 2 executioners and 3 redemptors as my Feirros firebase core and save the rest of the points for troops and screens...But since I own 0 of any of those vehicles, this might make the choice to play RG for me :p
2 Executioners a levi and 30 intercessors will work best. IMO. You can do 2 battalions with this setup.
bort wrote: If I were to run IH I’m thinking I’d use maybe 2 executioners and 3 redemptors as my Feirros firebase core and save the rest of the points for troops and screens...But since I own 0 of any of those vehicles, this might make the choice to play RG for me :p
My issue is that I actually do own three redemptor executioners, just with a leadbelcher undercoat on. The temptation to slap some black paint on them right now is huge. Embarrassingly, I've probably got enough grey plastic of shame to build the rest of a 1750 army and take it to the GT finals next year.
FWIW I do think that it makes sense to run all three, and not worry too much about getting a second battalion in. The army actually isn't that CP-reliant. My plan would be to take a couple of squads of infiltrators to screen. Not sure what the third troop would be.
It's a bit awkward that this doesn't let you take any more HS choices. I'd like at least one TFC but I'm not sure I want to have to buy another HQ to unlock it.
It costs about as much as a Knight with none of the survivability and anything not Ultramarines just gets tied up in melee indefinitely.
It's a good unit but hardly broken. It only appears broken because a lot of the Dread options are actually just terrible and always have been. There's a distinction ya know.
Hyperbole without factual framing does not constitute evidence, friend, but your bumptious opinion is noted.
Then point out where I'm wrong in that statement. I'm looking forward to the same non-reply I just got.
It costs about as much as a Knight with none of the survivability and anything not Ultramarines just gets tied up in melee indefinitely.
It's a good unit but hardly broken. It only appears broken because a lot of the Dread options are actually just terrible and always have been. There's a distinction ya know.
Hyperbole without factual framing does not constitute evidence, friend, but your bumptious opinion is noted.
Then point out where I'm wrong in that statement. I'm looking forward to the same non-reply I just got.
I'm not going to come out and say the Leviathan is broken, as tournament results will be the deciding factor for that IMO.....BUT;
Leviathans were already one of the best space marines units pre-codex, and dreadnoughts were....not.
Both both serious force multiplier buffs added to them in the new doctrines, chapter tactics, stratagems, auras and relics.
Making something that's already really good significantly harder to kill is kind of the formula for making something broken IMO. All of the buffs were absolutely needed to get "normal" dreads to a playable level, but when these are stacked on Leviathan it kind of gets insane. Looking over that mathhammer blog post from earlier was a little disgusting with how much firepower a fully kitted out Leviathan takes to kill. The obvious answer is just kill the other stuff of course, but your opponent having a neigh immortal unit in their list is disheartening and rather unfun overall. Having something this powerful also starts to heavily slant space marine players into using the unit/chapter, and has knock-on meta repercussions as well.
The burden of proof is upon you when you call someones analysis 'literally wrong' with no evidence of your own. That's how debate works. You don't have to agree with their opinion, but don't call it wrong without being able to back it up with facts. Fine, I'll bite.
A leviathan has easy access to invulnerability saves, stratagems, and relics that increase its survivability to be equal to or greater than many knights. It is repaired more easily than its knight counterpart. You say it gets tied up in melee, I say it does not. It can happen, but can does not equal does, and presumably you are piloting this thing with the intent to circumvent your own weaknesses. Look at the previous post regarding someone's in-game experience with SCA overwatch.
The Leviathan has been an exceptional, not just good, performer for all of 8th edition and has rocketed to bonkers with recent releases. One of which will heavily dictate the tournament meta. You might claim it is specifically IH that puts it over the top, to which I ask did the Castellan need a nerf if it was only too strong when used with a specific relic, stratagem, and household? It was too good and needed a fix. This is no different. A lot of the dread options are terrible. Sure. We aren't discussing those.
I believe that covers all your concerns? I can provide statistics if you'd like, but they've been discussed.
Vortenger wrote: The burden of proof is upon you when you call someones analysis 'literally wrong' with no evidence of your own. That's how debate works. You don't have to agree with their opinion, but don't call it wrong without being able to back it up with facts. Fine, I'll bite.
A leviathan has easy access to invulnerability saves, stratagems, and relics that increase its survivability to be equal to or greater than many knights. It is repaired more easily than its knight counterpart. You say it gets tied up in melee, I say it does not. It can happen, but can does not equal does, and presumably you are piloting this thing with the intent to circumvent your own weaknesses. Look at the previous post regarding someone's in-game experience with SCA overwatch.
The Leviathan has been an exceptional, not just good, performer for all of 8th edition and has rocketed to bonkers with recent releases. One of which will heavily dictate the tournament meta. You might claim it is specifically IH that puts it over the top, to which I ask did the Castellan need a nerf if it was only too strong when used with a specific relic, stratagem, and household? It was too good and needed a fix. This is no different. A lot of the dread options are terrible. Sure. We aren't discussing those.
I believe that covers all your concerns? I can provide statistics if you'd like, but they've been discussed.
The Leviathan Dreadnought is not overpowered.
The stacking buffs and stratagems that can be applied to the Leviathan Dreadnought, however, are overpowered. It's at the top of the list because it's the largest dreadnought, and thus uses those buffs and stratagems most efficiently, but any other dreadnought will see similar results. Were the Leviathan to get nerfed to oblivion, we'd just see this same conversation about Deredeos, or Relic Contemptors, or Redemptors.
What we need is to have the stratagems and other abilities patched so that they cannot stack or are balanced around size. (For example, charging an extra CP for halving damage on dreads with more than 10 wounds, similar to how Rotate Ion Shields costs more on the bigger knights.)
Vortenger wrote: The burden of proof is upon you when you call someones analysis 'literally wrong' with no evidence of your own. That's how debate works. You don't have to agree with their opinion, but don't call it wrong without being able to back it up with facts. Fine, I'll bite.
A leviathan has easy access to invulnerability saves, stratagems, and relics that increase its survivability to be equal to or greater than many knights. It is repaired more easily than its knight counterpart. You say it gets tied up in melee, I say it does not. It can happen, but can does not equal does, and presumably you are piloting this thing with the intent to circumvent your own weaknesses. Look at the previous post regarding someone's in-game experience with SCA overwatch.
The Leviathan has been an exceptional, not just good, performer for all of 8th edition and has rocketed to bonkers with recent releases. One of which will heavily dictate the tournament meta. You might claim it is specifically IH that puts it over the top, to which I ask did the Castellan need a nerf if it was only too strong when used with a specific relic, stratagem, and household? It was too good and needed a fix. This is no different. A lot of the dread options are terrible. Sure. We aren't discussing those.
I believe that covers all your concerns? I can provide statistics if you'd like, but they've been discussed.
1. You say "ease of access to Invul saves" without realizing it had a 4++ to begin with baked into its cost. So the new Techmarine guy does nothing except repair. So do you actually know the unit you're discussing or not, and just flailing your arms about screaming "OP" for no reason other than it shows up?
2. You want to add those Strats and Relics? That comes at a cost. Techmarines are what, 50 points? That's an extra 50 if you want the Ironstone, which means to get the most of the points you got to surround with other stuff. Character Strat does nothing unless you want to surround the thing with Intercessors to intercept wounds, which is more baked into the cost. Remember this is a 300+ point unit here.
3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.
4. No the Castellan suffers from core rules like Relics being free for example, as well as making the most of Strats. The Levi gets no relics or interesting Warlord Traits.
So no you're just fearmongering over a good unit when you're used to bad ones and I don't buy it.
+1 CP to codex astartes strats when applied to units with the RELIC keyword.
Tones down WW scorpius, levi dreads and other outliers but doesn't kill them for other armies (where they are fine and have been fine for 2 years).
IH not penalizing them for moving, native re-rolls 1s along with the -1 damage relic definitely makes them better and they are pretty good to begin with. Not sure how to address that but if levis haven't needed a nerf through 2 years of this edition (what % of GT final lists have one if any?) the issue isn't with the model but with the crazy stacking of strats/abilities.
I don't think GW understands how important mobility is. There is a significant drop of offensive power when going from hitting on a 2+ to a 3+ (or 4+ to a 5+ when shooting at anything with a negative) so being able to keep shooting with a 2+ makes them so much better. Then the small change of re-rolling all failed hits from only re-rolling 1s means the best defense against them (range and negs to hit) all took a hit.
All that being said, they do like 6 damage to a knight (20->20->7->3 = 6). They kill primaris really well (thank god) but barely better than a relic knight Gatling cannon. They really shine against marines but suffer from range, negs to hit or kiting against most other targets.
They probably wreck casual armies but against real competitive lists/players they are at most an annoyance (unless you are playing marines, then they are really good). Worthless in the mirror match (4 wounds vs an IH repulsor chassis or 3 vs another levi). They are less resilient than pox-walkers (per point vs most weapons) so their not the toughest thing in the game and their offensive output is good against a lot of targets but not great and is mitigated by range/los (not tall enough to see over a lot of terrain and not long enough to see around a lot of stuff, no fly to get on top of stuff).
I still think the executioner is better but for some reason people are fixated on the Levi.
3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.
Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use a levi but they are pretty damn strong with these strats
I still think the executioner is better but for some reason people are fixated on the Levi.
I believe that's because of durability, not DPS. Leviathans benefit from multiple rules that Executioners don't have access to that can boost their Durability to incredible levels.
Also, you can always pop the Warlord trait that gives extra hits on 6s if you want to boost DPS instead.
I use a leviathan often as alpha legion. It's always solid, on par with knights in terms of durability. And now I'll be using a relic leviathan in RG. I have no doubt how much better it will be. Sure it might get pinned here and there but that doesn't change how strong it is otherwise. Packing the equivalent of a shorter range s7 castigator bolt cannon is good enough to handle a t7 mech a turn while it's t8 saves with the strat guarantees it's not going down in time to matter.
I do think that the interaction was intended as a concession to pure SM who can't soup knights now. It's like built in soup.
3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.
Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use a levi but they are pretty damn strong with these strats
Amazing, 6 Intercessors! The last thing that is going to be charging the Levi! Cool beans.
3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.
Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use
Amazing, 6 Intercessors! The last thing that is going to be charging the Levi! Cool beans.
So make it 6 marines instead? Or 6 toughness 4 2 wound 3+ save models if that tickles your fancy? It gets better for the levi against anything with a worse save. It's not inconsequential is all. Sure no overwatch smash captains exist but they arent the only thing in the game that assaults
3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.
Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use
Amazing, 6 Intercessors! The last thing that is going to be charging the Levi! Cool beans.
So make it 6 marines instead? Or 6 toughness 4 2 wound 3+ save models if that tickles your fancy? It gets better for the levi against anything with a worse save. It's not inconsequential is all. Sure no overwatch smash captains exist but they arent the only thing in the game that assaults
Don't forget White Scars bikers, who would suffer as badly as Intercessors and are quite likely to actually be charging.
Edit: Or 4 Terminators, or 2.6 Assault Terminators, 2 Assault Centurions, an entire vanilla dreadnought...
3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.
Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use
Amazing, 6 Intercessors! The last thing that is going to be charging the Levi! Cool beans.
So make it 6 marines instead? Or 6 toughness 4 2 wound 3+ save models if that tickles your fancy? It gets better for the levi against anything with a worse save. It's not inconsequential is all. Sure no overwatch smash captains exist but they arent the only thing in the game that assaults
Don't forget White Scars bikers, who would suffer as badly as Intercessors and are quite likely to actually be charging.
Edit: Or 4 Terminators, or 2.6 Assault Terminators, 2 Assault Centurions, an entire vanilla dreadnought...
Consolidation shenanigans exist if you're actually THAT scared of Overwatch. Which you shouldn't be.
Consolidation shenanigans exist if you're actually THAT scared of Overwatch. Which you shouldn't be.
Cool. You use consolidation shenanigans, the Leviathan gets a few free kicks in and then consolidates 6" away, so you never do any actual damage and it can just shoot you normally next turn anyways.
Also, to be clear, it's not just 'Overwatch'. It's 11-12 hits with an AP-3 autocannon that will likely be rerolling 1s to wound, plus 2d6 Heavy Flamer hits if you're within 8" (which I didn't even include in the numbers above). That's something that most melee units would take pause at.
EDIT: It's also 12 dead Ork boyz, which is enough for even a big horde to be scared of.
Waaaghpower wrote: The Leviathan Dreadnought is not overpowered.
The stacking buffs and stratagems that can be applied to the Leviathan Dreadnought, however, are overpowered. It's at the top of the list because it's the largest dreadnought, and thus uses those buffs and stratagems most efficiently, but any other dreadnought will see similar results. Were the Leviathan to get nerfed to oblivion, we'd just see this same conversation about Deredeos, or Relic Contemptors, or Redemptors.
What we need is to have the stratagems and other abilities patched so that they cannot stack or are balanced around size. (For example, charging an extra CP for halving damage on dreads with more than 10 wounds, similar to how Rotate Ion Shields costs more on the bigger knights.)
This makes good sense to me.
Slayer: Friendly, aren't you? Never said it was OP, I said it was bonkers. If that's your definition of a 'good' unit, cool. I'd love to see your list of 'great' ones. I'd say it's pretty great. As to the rest, agree to disagree.
That attitude is ancient and diminishing rapidly. As it is major tournaments allow them generally. In Finland don't remember running into restrictions.
With GW codex containing vast majority of broken stuff leaving FW units generally pale in comparison there's no real case against banning them.
As it is I'm more worried about IH repulsors than leviathan. For leviathan there's better chapters. IH benefits more of lesser dreads and vehicles.
Some of the lesser hyped iron hands strats are hilarious on Leviathans
There is one to score extra wounds for every successful wound roll of a six. That's a flat 50 percent damage buff against T8, and a 33 percent buff against T7. Pretty mental for just 1CP on a 300pt unit with some of the game's most efficient shooting
Also their overwatch is not to be underestimated when they can choose to buff it to 4+ with 1CP, thats 10 S7 -3 D2 hits on average. Could easily off a charging smash captain or similar if they roll a bit poorly
DoomMouse wrote: Some of the lesser hyped iron hands strats are hilarious on Leviathans
There is one to score extra wounds for every successful wound roll of a six. That's a flat 50 percent damage buff against T8, and a 33 percent buff against T7. Pretty mental for just 1CP on a 300pt unit with some of the game's most efficient shooting
Also their overwatch is not to be underestimated when they can choose to buff it to 4+ with 1CP, thats 10 S7 -3 D2 hits on average. Could easily off a charging smash captain or similar if they roll a bit poorly
The true Smash Captains deny overwatch. The other imposters are terrible at the job if they can't
Even a lone BA smash captain can't kill a levi dread in melee. His 3 damage TH is reduced to 1 by the iron stone and duty eternal. Half his attacks are saved by the levi inv. The dread needs to have lost some wounds before the captain hits it.
It os a recursive loop; like the bootstrap paradox.
The Levi is being talked about so much here vs other units because it has been talked about so much here (and elsewhere)
When everyone started in with "IH are so OP and the strongest supplement" the very first unit mentioned as evidemce for this was the levi. It is spoken of as an auto-include in all SM lists, made so much better by strats,relics,and a character in the IH supplement.
If a 303 point unit that requires another elite unit of at least 50 points before you are allowed to take it is looked at as an auto-include while a 337 point dedicated transport(less points, and no FOC limitations) is seen as "meh", and a 331 points Heavy support unit is seen as "slightly better than the transport option"; then there is something wrong with the auto-include unit.
As far as other units that benefit from IH supplement ruleset as a whole: all of them.
The Predator wasn't great in the old dex, but people would take 3+ for killshot. Then the rule of 3 came out, so people at first took only 3. They started seeing 1 focus-fired off the board. Loss of killshot as a strat didn't kill the pred, rule of 3 did. Now with IH a dakka pred has gained: survivability, accuracy, and a few shenanigans. It is still worse than the Invictor Warsuit(with ACs) on unaugmented average; but when we apply the same augmentations the predator wins out(slightly) on everything except chaff.
The Predator wasn't great in the old dex, but people would take 3+ for killshot. Then the rule of 3 came out, so people at first took only 3. They started seeing 1 focus-fired off the board. Loss of killshot as a strat didn't kill the pred, rule of 3 did. Now with IH a dakka pred has gained: survivability, accuracy, and a few shenanigans. It is still worse than the Invictor Warsuit(with ACs) on unaugmented average; but when we apply the same augmentations the predator wins out(slightly) on everything except chaff.
Predators are still useless. A razorback is cheaper and can do the same with twin LC, and carry 6 marines. What it can't do is have sponsons, or get the pred autocannon. And even with autocannon it's outperformed by the contemptor mortis dreadnaught.
The reason so many folks are using the leviathan is because he gains the most mileage out of perks and traits that are not given real costs. For example how on earth do you come up with a cost or balance on relics that are free. Or how on earth do you assign a real cost to a stratagem that is 1CP that can be applied to how many slates? At least 8 lol. That stratagem needed to be way more specific, like only working on a Venerable Dreadnought. That relic should have been one use only.
Vortenger wrote: The burden of proof is upon you when you call someones analysis 'literally wrong' with no evidence of your own. That's how debate works. You don't have to agree with their opinion, but don't call it wrong without being able to back it up with facts. Fine, I'll bite.
A leviathan has easy access to invulnerability saves, stratagems, and relics that increase its survivability to be equal to or greater than many knights. It is repaired more easily than its knight counterpart. You say it gets tied up in melee, I say it does not. It can happen, but can does not equal does, and presumably you are piloting this thing with the intent to circumvent your own weaknesses. Look at the previous post regarding someone's in-game experience with SCA overwatch.
The Leviathan has been an exceptional, not just good, performer for all of 8th edition and has rocketed to bonkers with recent releases. One of which will heavily dictate the tournament meta. You might claim it is specifically IH that puts it over the top, to which I ask did the Castellan need a nerf if it was only too strong when used with a specific relic, stratagem, and household? It was too good and needed a fix. This is no different. A lot of the dread options are terrible. Sure. We aren't discussing those.
I believe that covers all your concerns? I can provide statistics if you'd like, but they've been discussed.
The Leviathan Dreadnought is not overpowered.
The stacking buffs and stratagems that can be applied to the Leviathan Dreadnought, however, are overpowered. It's at the top of the list because it's the largest dreadnought, and thus uses those buffs and stratagems most efficiently, but any other dreadnought will see similar results. Were the Leviathan to get nerfed to oblivion, we'd just see this same conversation about Deredeos, or Relic Contemptors, or Redemptors.
What we need is to have the stratagems and other abilities patched so that they cannot stack or are balanced around size. (For example, charging an extra CP for halving damage on dreads with more than 10 wounds, similar to how Rotate Ion Shields costs more on the bigger knights.)
It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.
Amai wrote: What are the better options on leviathan than Iron Hands ?
To be fair...Ultramarines. The best offensive buff available will be reroll all wounds from seal of oath. Only works against 1 target but that target will be ultimately obliterated by the levi dread. Salamanders is not terrible for it ether with the ap-1 ignore and a 4+ invo save reducing optimal weapons to target it with. Ironhands is obviously the best though.
Amai wrote: What are the better options on leviathan than Iron Hands ?
Ultramarines for one. Raven Guard I'd make an argument for as everyone and their mother runs characters with above 10 wounds and they'd be easily targeted by the Autocannons.
White Scars? Nah there are better melee Dreads which is a shame because I love the melee weapons look on the Levi.
One turn only for that relic actually makes a lot of sense. Use it turn 1 so you don't get blown off the board but you are not forever invulnerable.
If only GW would come down to this cesspit every once in a while to discover a hidden gem among the trash.
UM work well for levis (no penalty for moving, fall back and still shoot, re-roll wounds vs 1 target for them is big).
I like them as DW (if only we had a way to get rid of the movement penalty). Deepstriking, re-roll 1's to wound and the ability to get +1 to wound (big if you are s7).
Work well as space wolves (ability to ignore all negs to hit at BS 2+, yes please).
Heck, deepstriking them as WS (can white scars DS dreads?) works really good too.
Problem with the rest of these lists is the lack of armor saturation. With IH you are running the repulsor/executioner so you are fielding more t8 units than most armies can deal with and now your enemy actually has to make bad choices about what to shoot and the Levi is the worst choice out of several bad choices.
bananathug wrote: One turn only for that relic actually makes a lot of sense. Use it turn 1 so you don't get blown off the board but you are not forever invulnerable.
If only GW would come down to this cesspit every once in a while to discover a hidden gem among the trash.
UM work well for levis (no penalty for moving, fall back and still shoot, re-roll wounds vs 1 target for them is big).
I like them as DW (if only we had a way to get rid of the movement penalty). Deepstriking, re-roll 1's to wound and the ability to get +1 to wound (big if you are s7).
Work well as space wolves (ability to ignore all negs to hit at BS 2+, yes please).
Heck, deepstriking them as WS (can white scars DS dreads?) works really good too.
Problem with the rest of these lists is the lack of armor saturation. With IH you are running the repulsor/executioner so you are fielding more t8 units than most armies can deal with and now your enemy actually has to make bad choices about what to shoot and the Levi is the worst choice out of several bad choices.
Yes, White Scars can outflank everything that has the White Scars keyword, from Scouts to Mastodons and Thunderhawks. I was honestly surprised it didn't get FAQ'ed to be Infantry and Bikers only. Still need to try it on my Relic Contemptor, might even be worth slapping an extra Cyclone Missile Launcher on it to take maximum advantage of the guaranteed round of shooting.
Barring character dreadnoughts and the 6" free move after fighting WLT, Iron Hands are a very predictable supplement by comparison to the other three released so far.
Barring character dreadnoughts and the 6" free move after fighting WLT, Iron Hands are a very predictable supplement by comparison to the other three released so far.
What they do, though, they do well, and that's what matters for the Supplements.
The Predator wasn't great in the old dex, but people would take 3+ for killshot. Then the rule of 3 came out, so people at first took only 3. They started seeing 1 focus-fired off the board. Loss of killshot as a strat didn't kill the pred, rule of 3 did. Now with IH a dakka pred has gained: survivability, accuracy, and a few shenanigans. It is still worse than the Invictor Warsuit(with ACs) on unaugmented average; but when we apply the same augmentations the predator wins out(slightly) on everything except chaff.
Only one problem: no more Killshot
That thing that I specifically addressed through the paragraph you quoted? That killshot?
Killshot has been irrelevant and useless for about a year now. The only times you should have been able to get a killshot off was first battle round, when you had first turn. If one of your pedators wasn't dead by the end of your opponent's first turn; you had a bad opponent.
Same goes for linebreaker bombardment.
P5freak: 15 points cheaper. Yes, adds up over time; and the "benefits" you get with the predator does just add more of a price difference. But, the Pred Annihilater was already a sub-optimal choice vs a twin las-back since back when AV was a thing(yes, being better during the small window when killshot was usable). If you want a predator with lascannons you stuck them on the sponsons of a destructor.
Las-backs are also better due to not taking up slots; they should always be the unit of choice for relatively cheap mobile lascannons.
Xenomancers wrote: It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.
The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.
Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.
Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.
The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.
Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.
Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.
If you havent noticed, Xeno's approach to balance is "this thing annoys me, BURRRRRNNNNNNNINNNNNNAAAAAAAAATE" without any additional considerations.
Xenomancers wrote: It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.
The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.
Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.
Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.
There is a clear and obvious power gap between levi and every marine unit. Not going to argue about it because it is readily apparent. As an owner of one I have no issue with being brought down a tad. 16 shots is not burnante level. It's still the most durable unit we have. It should also be slower because it is bigger and clumsier.
Even if Ironhands get drawn in to realms of realism with power level the levi is still a problem.
Xenomancers wrote: It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.
The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.
Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.
Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.
Levi was already the most broken unit marines had access to. Seriously brought down to earth by every other marine unit sucking massive doink. Now marines have a lot of great units and whats funny is the levi has been buffed a lot by doctrines and super traits too. I seriously havn't even played a levi since the new codex even as ultramarines because I would automatically win the game and these are more are less practice games. Plus no one else has an 8.5 codex. I'd bring it to a tournament only.
Sometimes it seems I am the only reasonable person on this fourm. I get accused all the time of speaking in hyperbole and being a marine fanboy ect. Yet...I routinely call for nerfs to marine aspects that are too strong and call out imbalance where I see it. My perspective is pretty unique because very few of you play 3-4 games a week and own 10 armies...I do. I could balance the game overnight with much better rules and everyone would be able to play the way they want to play and have fun and have a chance to win. The only answer is this is not what GW wants because it really would be easy and could be done very quickly with basically just common sense.
Xenomancers wrote: It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.
The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.
Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.
Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.
There is a clear and obvious power gap between levi and every marine unit. Not going to argue about it because it is readily apparent. As an owner of one I have no issue with being brought down a tad. 16 shots is not burnante level. It's still the most durable unit we have. It should also be slower because it is bigger and clumsier.
Even if Ironhands get drawn in to realms of realism with power level the levi is still a problem.
So the one unit that was not trash in your earlier posts is now a problem unit that is now in need of a nerf?
Like seriously who actually has tried to make dreadnaughts work for marine's, I have and I can tell you now out side of iron hands they are still poor units that dont have a justifications for their points costs, the FW ones are not OP they are actually just at the playable level.
GW wrote unplayable poor rules for codex dreadnaughts, but don't have the guts to admit they screwed up on the stats.
A T7 3+ save isn't worth anything with the league of lethality in the game, if they wanted to keep them T7 they needed to go to a 2+ Sv flat across them all.
That half damage strategum now punishes list that take more than 1 dreadnaught.
It's another amateur work around instead of addressing the route cause of the issue.
The Invictor was basically an admission current dreads were underpowered, but instead of fixing them they made a new unit for us all to buy. Now to wait for the 130pt flying T8 Primaris predator...
Without the ability to stack buffs, the Leviathan is no stronger pound-for-pound than a Repulsor Executioner, Invictor, or the Redemptor. Its OPness comes from the ability to stack too many good abilities into to dense of a space, in the same way that 7th edition Deathstar units could stack a half dozen buffs into a single otherwise-balanced squad and create imbalance. (And without any stratagems, I'd honestly put the Leviathan in the B tier, maybe B+.)
Waaaghpower wrote: Without the ability to stack buffs, the Leviathan is no stronger pound-for-pound than a Repulsor Executioner, Invictor, or the Redemptor. Its OPness comes from the ability to stack too many good abilities into to dense of a space, in the same way that 7th edition Deathstar units could stack a half dozen buffs into a single otherwise-balanced squad and create imbalance. (And without any stratagems, I'd honestly put the Leviathan in the B tier, maybe B+.)
It's better than all three of those units.
It's one of the only marine vehicles that comes with an invuln.
Waaaghpower wrote: Without the ability to stack buffs, the Leviathan is no stronger pound-for-pound than a Repulsor Executioner, Invictor, or the Redemptor. Its OPness comes from the ability to stack too many good abilities into to dense of a space, in the same way that 7th edition Deathstar units could stack a half dozen buffs into a single otherwise-balanced squad and create imbalance. (And without any stratagems, I'd honestly put the Leviathan in the B tier, maybe B+.)
It's better than all three of those units.
It's one of the only marine vehicles that comes with an invuln.
It also costs more than a Land Raider and has very short range and mediocre speed.
I do agree on the leviathan. Its the single most overpowered and amazing model so far.
Xenomancer i would appreciate if you would use the time to rebalance and open a new thread for it in this forum. I am seriously interested on your insight on this subject.
I swear, vs many targets the Deredeo point for point out shoots the Leviathan and no one except me even likes those.
I’d agree it used to be like a B/B+shooter with A+ for marine survivability. Now it’s A++ surv for anyone, but it’s still only a B+ shooter. That means opponents should be killing anything else better with less durability first.
I kind of like my Deredeo. It is a totally different unit to the Leviathan, but only costs ~60% of what a leviathan does.
For all the fuss about IH leviathans I'm not sure they're the best unit for Iron Hands to take, or that Iron Hands are the best codex to use for them.
First up, the leviathan doesn't get one of the key IH buffs - the free 5++ aura. This is a huge benefit to repulsors, redemptor dreads and so on - and of no benefit to the leviathan which is paying for a 4++ already.
It does of course benefit from the Ironstone, repairs, the 6++ and so on. But its wounds are actually very expensive so the 6++ is less efficient than on a lot of other units.
It does of course also get the marine strat to halve damage - like a leviathan from any other chapter would have.
So the point is, an IH leviathan is still tougher than anyone else's - but not by a stupid amount. And there are very strong reasons to take them for other chapters - things like falling back and shooting or the (rumoured) +1 to damage for Fists are really great for Leviathans too.
On the other hand, an Iron Hands redemptor is far tougher than one from another chapter. In fact it's probably about as tough as most other people's leviathans are, if not more so. But it costs a fraction of what a leviathan does, and it comes with a big hand for wrecking stuff in melee, so the leviathan's major weakness is a strength for the redemptor... at least some of the time. It doesn't do as much shooty damage as the Leviathan of course, but it does a very respectable amount of dakka, and is now able to advance upfield while firing with no penalty if it wants to.
And the same can be said of the repulsor. Good luck dropping one of these in a turn. And again, where the leviathan has to watch out for being charged the repulsor has its -2" off charge moves trick, and a pretty similar wall of bullets to chuck at things to the leviathan's. But even if you do charge the thing it will just fly off and laser-destroy your face for you.
An indestructable Iron Hands dread is definitely a problem for an opponent. It's far from unbeatable though. Once it's in combat, that's kind of that.
I suggest you play the leviathan outside 5+ invu together with something else with invul to create a strong flank. There is plenty of traffic around ferros already.
The 5+ invu and overwatch is good to all kind of infantry also basically making them as durable as terminators.
It is possible to make the whole army to have invulns. Or at least most of them.
For example, take leviathan on flank and pair it with a dread (or another leviathan) that has invus and put deredeos near ferros + liutenant with agressors and intercessors. If something scary shoots use 5+ feel no pain or halve damage strategem if something charges use overwatch strategem and if something have taken damage use repair from ferros and techmarine who is in flank with liutenant. One unit of heavy weapon + storm bolter (if spare points) tacticals for back objective.
Ferros / techmarine take ironstone and repair relic and one liutenant takes teeth of terra.
Should be cost effective. In my opinion 2d6 shot whirlwind with stormbolter might be a nice addition.
With some kind of setup all infantry iron hands should also be viable because of 5+ invu, feel no pain and overwatch. With feel no pain strategem intercessors become as resilient as death guard terminators.
One idea would have only one vehicle, leviathan with reduce damage 1, halve strategem, repair, invu, fnp and so. Either shoot death guard type of infantry or that kind of vehicle.
My initial observations are that the damage output and durability are crazy as everyone has said.
In the spirit of fairness, days before our game, I chatted with my opponent and discussed all the ironhands abilities and rules, so he could try to prepare to deal with them.
For a firebase, I took two executioners, a gatling redemptor, a character venerable dread with lascannons and missile, a relic contemptor with lascannons and a razorback with assault cannons. I bubbled up with a techmarine, librarian with buffing abilities, chapter master and Feirros. Remaining points allowed me a screen of 3 minimum intercessor squads and 3 scout squads. Had the ironstone on one hq and the plus one to heal trait on the techmarine. I killed pretty much all of the opponents army except for one chaff unit. The downside is that I feel boxed in against fast melee armies. The opponent had a fast melee genestealer heavy tyrannid army with hiveguard support and some antitank units that had previously given my marines trouble. I basically just sat in the corner, barely moving and shot everything off the board while absorbing any antitank fire with no problem. We had plenty of terrain too. By the end of the game all my infantry were dead, and my vehicles were basically all at full health. Cool, I won, but it wasn't that fun for me or my opponent. The problem is that I love that these rules allow for an effective vehicle heavy space marine list, but I wish it were toned down at least a little. I don't play in a highly competitive environment, so I'll have to experiment with building a list that is effective and lets the theme shine, but isn't so unbalanced feeling.
I only mention the Deredeo cause I feel like its similar role to the Leviathan, but it's 2/3rd cousin. 2/3 the cost, 2/3 the damage, 2/3 the surv. Both are gun platforms with high rate of medium high str shots and both are among the few SM units with innate invulns.
And yeah, IH Redemptors still seem like the obvious dread pick to me. More survivability and if you do the mirror match vs another IH list, a Redemptor will do about as much damage as a Levi will since it's not nerfed by the Ironstone at all.
The above is what makes me kinda sad. I always wanted tougher marines, the IH traits made me plan to take them (even before hearing they'd be OP). And then their best toughness boosts are all for models I don't own. I wanted a tougher mobile mech army, not a tougher Executioner/Redemptor blob. Oh well. RG sound really cool too, even if they still die fast. ...Just need the dang codexes to arrive in the mail...
And the same can be said of the repulsor. Good luck dropping one of these in a turn. And again, where the leviathan has to watch out for being charged the repulsor has its -2" off charge moves trick, and a pretty similar wall of bullets to chuck at things to the leviathan's. But even if you do charge the thing it will just fly off and laser-destroy your face for you.
An indestructable Iron Hands dread is definitely a problem for an opponent. It's far from unbeatable though. Once it's in combat, that's kind of that.
You are overlooking the overwatch on 4+ stratagem. There wont be much left of any unit when it charges the leviathan. Its 2D6 automatic hits with heavy flamers at S5 AP-2 D1 (if within 8") and 10 hits with S7 AP-3 D2. If anything survives and gets within 1", and tries to surround the leviathan my characters will heroically intervene. Anything that survives gets hit by four S8 AP0 D1 attacks, and the characters. After that the leviathan walks away with student of history, and continues shooting next turn.
And the same can be said of the repulsor. Good luck dropping one of these in a turn. And again, where the leviathan has to watch out for being charged the repulsor has its -2" off charge moves trick, and a pretty similar wall of bullets to chuck at things to the leviathan's. But even if you do charge the thing it will just fly off and laser-destroy your face for you.
An indestructable Iron Hands dread is definitely a problem for an opponent. It's far from unbeatable though. Once it's in combat, that's kind of that.
You are overlooking the overwatch on 4+ stratagem. There wont be much left of any unit when it charges the leviathan. Its 2D6 automatic hits with heavy flamers at S5 AP-2 D1 (if within 8") and 10 hits with S7 AP-3 D2. If anything survives and gets within 1", and tries to surround the leviathan my characters will heroically intervene. Anything that survives gets hit by four S8 AP0 D1 attacks, and the characters. After that the leviathan walks away with student of history, and continues shooting next turn.
And once again the issue is your stacking 3 or 4 strategums and a battalions worth of CP into a single unit.
Still not a problem with the base unit design, it's poor strategum and subfaction rules interactions.
You can't have Ferrios and a Leviathian with Student of History, as Ferrios gets that Warlord trait automatically and you can't double up on it. That being said, can you use Student of History to withdraw if you're already base to base with an enemy model?
bmsattler wrote: You can't have Ferrios and a Leviathian with Student of History, as Ferrios gets that Warlord trait automatically and you can't double up on it. That being said, can you use Student of History to withdraw if you're already base to base with an enemy model?
You can use both, you just dont make ferrios your warlord, you make your other charictor your warlord and then use the 2 strategums to give the dreadnaught charictor keyword then the strategum for a warlord trait on a non warlord.
You can consolidate in any direction so why would you not be able to consolidate when in base to base, even more janky it can be used to do some seriously janky thinks like charge fight, consolidate away, fight twice to pile in fight and consolidate away for 2 slappings with no comeback or counter punching against said charictor. That warlord trait really does need a serious FAQ.
Thanks for clarifying that for me. I thought named characters kept the warlord trait. I asked about basing as it was my understanding that you couldn't make a consolidate move if you were already base-to-base with an enemy model.
Its because you have to move closer to the enemy during a normal consolidate. If you are already base to base you can't move closer and thus you cant move.
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
For a firebase, I took two executioners, a gatling redemptor, a character venerable dread with lascannons and missile, a relic contemptor with lascannons and a razorback with assault cannons. I bubbled up with a techmarine, librarian with buffing abilities, chapter master and Feirros. Remaining points allowed me a screen of 3 minimum intercessor squads and 3 scout squads. Had the ironstone on one hq and the plus one to heal trait on the techmarine. I killed pretty much all of the opponents army except for one chaff unit. The downside is that I feel boxed in against fast melee armies. The opponent had a fast melee genestealer heavy tyrannid army with hiveguard support and some antitank units that had previously given my marines trouble. I basically just sat in the corner, barely moving and shot everything off the board while absorbing any antitank fire with no problem. We had plenty of terrain too. By the end of the game all my infantry were dead, and my vehicles were basically all at full health. Cool, I won, but it wasn't that fun for me or my opponent. The problem is that I love that these rules allow for an effective vehicle heavy space marine list, but I wish it were toned down at least a little. I don't play in a highly competitive environment, so I'll have to experiment with building a list that is effective and lets the theme shine, but isn't so unbalanced feeling.
This is exactly why I think IH will be really damaging to the health of the game. They have a playstyle that is super easy, super effective... and super boring. They will not be fun to play and will be super frustrating to play against. Maybe some top end tournament players can come up with effective counters, but in more casual environment they will dominate and results very unsatisfying games.
Waaaghpower wrote: Without the ability to stack buffs, the Leviathan is no stronger pound-for-pound than a Repulsor Executioner, Invictor, or the Redemptor. Its OPness comes from the ability to stack too many good abilities into to dense of a space, in the same way that 7th edition Deathstar units could stack a half dozen buffs into a single otherwise-balanced squad and create imbalance. (And without any stratagems, I'd honestly put the Leviathan in the B tier, maybe B+.)
It's better than all three of those units.
It's one of the only marine vehicles that comes with an invuln.
It also costs more than a Land Raider and has very short range and mediocre speed.
If we go by Slayerfans' reality the Land Raider "costs as much" as the Levi.
Also; tossing in a different unit than the one's you discussed prior, and still doesn't have the invulnerable save that was lemondish's counter arguement, doesn't do anything other than deflect.
This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?
Red Corsair wrote: This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?
I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).
Red Corsair wrote: This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?
I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).
This is what is so annoying about this place everyone is so convinced that they know the game best and unit's need nerfed when the fact that so many broken lists can be built with 1 subfaction says it's the subfaction that needs rebalanced badly not the units.
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.
Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.
Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.
Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.
Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.
A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.
Leviathan might be a tad too good yes, but not gamebreakingly so. The IH rules on the other hand are just obscene. Now you of course can think both are issues (and I would agree), but it is clear that the latter is much, much bigger deal.
Crimson wrote: Leviathan might be a tad too good yes, but not gamebreakingly so. The IH rules on the other hand are just obscene. Now you of course can think both are issues (and I would agree), but it is clear that the latter is much, much bigger deal.
The degree the levi is over the top is much less than the iron hands rules. No question about that. Levi needs a love tap. Ironhands need lots of fixes. Its not just that it will be unfun to play against and that it is easy to play. It's easy to play because people can't kill your stuff! Low ROF weapons are already at a disadvantage in this game - a -1 damage aura is so problematic I can't even imagine why anyone thought it was a good idea.
Red Corsair wrote: This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?
I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).
Get the FW Rhino and use Huron as a Iron Hands successor.
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.
Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.
Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.
A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.
You realize how many points you need, relic slots, and Strats used to do what you're talking about?
I think I agree on this. The truly broken thing is the -1 damage relic – especially in a meta that features a lot of 2 damage weapons. I feel like the knight list I used at the LGT would have very little chance against a really straightforward Iron Hands army.
You can’t even snipe out the guy holding the relic, thanks to the IH strat to let nearby infantry tank the hits. Or I guess you have to first shoot them dead and then switch to the character… Oh and hope that you actually play an army that features snipers able to drop an IH character. The guy can quite happily sit behind a wall buffing tanks on the other side anyway.
On the plus side I’m enjoying planning ways to take this army out. I think Ravenguard might be able to do it, but not easily. Shrike can charge stuff because he has a warlord trait to prevent overwatch. It’s then a question of bringing in stuff like devastator centurions to take out the tanks. The problem is the infiltrator screen that the IH player will almost certainly bring.
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
On the plus side I’m enjoying planning ways to take this army out. I think Ravenguard might be able to do it, but not easily. Shrike can charge stuff because he has a warlord trait to prevent overwatch.
Any Raven Guard character can take the no-overwatch warlord trait. Follow the no-overwatch character into combat with whatever else you want that will fit--a bunch of smash captains, or something that does mortal wounds, or whatever combination will work.
But even without the Raven Guard strat, I wonder why the opponents described weren't using any of the usual ways to avoid overwatch, like charging from out of LoS or charging first with an expendable light vehicle, a speeder or rhino? Sure, a speeder might get blown away, but only one has to get through to stop overwatch on all subsequent charges (and the 4+ overwatch strat can only be used once per charge phase, right?).
Red Corsair wrote: This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?
I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).
Get the FW Rhino and use Huron as a Iron Hands successor.
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.
Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.
Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.
A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.
You realize how many points you need, relic slots, and Strats used to do what you're talking about?
I realize relics are free and with 13 CP to start the game you could keep the levi at indestructible status for 3 turns no problem. Thing is...you already lose if are putting real firepower into a unit you can't kill. That is the formula to lose games. Its the main reason Castellan was such a problem with a 3++ - its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Levis put out pretty insane damage too its much the same situation here except the stratagey to chip the levi down is even more risky because of auto 6 damage healed.
For the record. To have a -2 damage (or up to -4 damage vs d6 damage on a good roll) all you need to do is spend 2 CP after something threatening shoots at your levi. Just the -1 damage relic makes all d2 and random d3 damage weapons completely useless against you. You only need the 2CP strat vs the biggest guns. 2 CP for indestructable levi....Seems like a small investment compared to 3 CP for a castellan...which already needed 3 CP to pump it's damage and probably 1 CP to fire at full power later in the game. It busted and everyone know it.
On the plus side I’m enjoying planning ways to take this army out. I think Ravenguard might be able to do it, but not easily. Shrike can charge stuff because he has a warlord trait to prevent overwatch.
Any Raven Guard character can take the no-overwatch warlord trait. Follow the no-overwatch character into combat with whatever else you want that will fit--a bunch of smash captains, or something that does mortal wounds, or whatever combination will work.
But even without the Raven Guard strat, I wonder why the opponents described weren't using any of the usual ways to avoid overwatch, like charging from out of LoS or charging first with an expendable light vehicle, a speeder or rhino? Sure, a speeder might get blown away, but only one has to get through to stop overwatch on all subsequent charges (and the 4+ overwatch strat can only be used once per charge phase, right?).
Stupid gimmicks to beat stupid gimmicks ... Can't wait for the stratagem that lets you overwatch vs units you can't overwatch. Or the stratagem that makes you immune to assault damage or something...
Red Corsair wrote: This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?
I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).
Get the FW Rhino and use Huron as a Iron Hands successor.
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.
Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.
Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.
A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.
You realize how many points you need, relic slots, and Strats used to do what you're talking about?
I realize relics are free and with 13 CP to start the game you could keep the levi at indestructible status for 3 turns no problem. Thing is...you already lose if are putting real firepower into a unit you can't kill. That is the formula to lose games. Its the main reason Castellan was such a problem with a 3++ - its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Levis put out pretty insane damage too its much the same situation here except the stratagey to chip the levi down is even more risky because of auto 6 damage healed.
For the record. To have a -2 damage (or up to -4 damage vs d6 damage on a good roll) all you need to do is spend 2 CP after something threatening shoots at your levi. Just the -1 damage relic makes all d2 and random d3 damage weapons completely useless against you. You only need the 2CP strat vs the biggest guns. 2 CP for indestructable levi....Seems like a small investment compared to 3 CP for a castellan...which already needed 3 CP to pump it's damage and probably 1 CP to fire at full power later in the game. It busted and everyone know it.
On the plus side I’m enjoying planning ways to take this army out. I think Ravenguard might be able to do it, but not easily. Shrike can charge stuff because he has a warlord trait to prevent overwatch.
Any Raven Guard character can take the no-overwatch warlord trait. Follow the no-overwatch character into combat with whatever else you want that will fit--a bunch of smash captains, or something that does mortal wounds, or whatever combination will work.
But even without the Raven Guard strat, I wonder why the opponents described weren't using any of the usual ways to avoid overwatch, like charging from out of LoS or charging first with an expendable light vehicle, a speeder or rhino? Sure, a speeder might get blown away, but only one has to get through to stop overwatch on all subsequent charges (and the 4+ overwatch strat can only be used once per charge phase, right?).
Stupid gimmicks to beat stupid gimmicks ... Can't wait for the stratagem that lets you overwatch vs units you can't overwatch. Or the stratagem that makes you immune to assault damage or something...
The 3++ was not the only problem with the Castellan and you know that. Castellans got their power through a combination of basically everything. Levi can't even benefit through the same Imperial Guard spam.
FWIW the reason I’d use Shrike is because he’s so fast. I’d hazard a guess that the reason people aren’t charging Leviathans more has something to do with the leviathan and its friends shooting them dead before they are able to. Shrike can do a pre-game move, then move, advance, and still charge thanks to a 1cp strat. This lets him get to the leviathan from far away, which is what you need to do.
He’d probably try to multi-charge the leviathan and the guy holding the -1dmg relic – who he would have a reasonable chance of killing. The trick would then be bringing enough other stuff along to be able to pin the leviathan so that everyone didn’t get nuked in the following shooting phase.
That or I start painting Eldar planes. Could go either way.
He'd need to charge the Techmarine. Shrike himself is only 135 points I think, so the tradeoff with the Techmarine is still worth it just because of needing to kill the Ironstone. Yeah he can tie up the Levi, but the Ironstone is benefitting a bunch of other stuff theoretically.
Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.
He'd charge both. This is the downside of the character needing to be within 3" of the dread. Perfect gap for Shrike to fit in. Even if he can only make it to the dread with his charge he can still pile into the relic guy and blend him.
Then you send in something random like an infiltrator squad to surround the leviathan and keep Shrike in combat. Also, it's a really good idea to have first turn so these guys are all still alive by this point.
As tricky as this is to achieve, it's even worse if the IH player brought repulsors and redemptors instead of leviathans. Now, the leviathans just annoyingly float away and - even more annoyingly - shoot you approximately a bajillion times.
Mandragola wrote: He'd charge both. This is the downside of the character needing to be within 3" of the dread. Perfect gap for Shrike to fit in. Even if he can only make it to the dread with his charge he can still pile into the relic guy and blend him.
Then you send in something random like an infiltrator squad to surround the leviathan and keep Shrike in combat. Also, it's a really good idea to have first turn so these guys are all still alive by this point.
As tricky as this is to achieve, it's even worse if the IH player brought repulsors and redemptors instead of leviathans. Now, the leviathans just annoyingly float away and - even more annoyingly - shoot you approximately a bajillion times.
This is why double exectuiner levi is going to be all the jazz...You possition the executioners in such a way that you can't charge the levi solo. So -2 to charge comes into play and you pretty much have to charge at the back of the levi cause you can't be placed anywhere...Good luck with that charge dude. You gonna have to kill the executioners first...which is doable but they don't degrade easy and can't just be tied up to shut them down. This is also only doable with ignore overwatch which only a few units have access to.
For more SNG you can even include a chapter master for like 78 points and even more melle protection for your levi. Doubles the effectiveness of all your overwatch instead of reroll 1's. Plus if they have -1's to hits you basically ignore them. Probably still mandatory vs eldar anyways.
Oh BTW...still 30ish 6+ FNP intercessors in front of them too.
And now we're back to the levi isn't OP but the combo of the IH + executioners + strats + characters is the problem like people have been trying to point out for the last couple pages...
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.
Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.
Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.
Yes, you don't want to charge the Repulsor. But the Repulsor also isn't using Duty Eternal.
The reason folks are keen to charge a Levi is because on top of the 4++, 5+++ warlord trait, half damage Strat, repairs, and Ironstone - charging is the only way to silence it.
Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.
Pretty sure the Levi has less than 4 attacks because the moment you take a gun you lose an attack.
Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.
Pretty sure the Levi has less than 4 attacks because the moment you take a gun you lose an attack.
With the strat to make it a character and SA it has 4 attacks.
Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.
Pretty sure the Levi has less than 4 attacks because the moment you take a gun you lose an attack.
I was originally going to post that too, but I think he’s counting the +1 first combat round and +1 for the strat to make a dread a character, putting it back at 4.
Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.
Pretty sure the Levi has less than 4 attacks because the moment you take a gun you lose an attack.
I was originally going to post that too, but I think he’s counting the +1 first combat round and +1 for the strat to make a dread a character, putting it back at 4.
I did genuinely forget about SA, but it's really not dangerous in melee. Everyone is getting their save.
bananathug wrote: And now we're back to the levi isn't OP but the combo of the IH + executioners + strats + characters is the problem like people have been trying to point out for the last couple pages...
No...the Levi is totally OP. It's just not as OP as ironstone is. Or the Ironhands trait which is bonkers OP. 3 freaking army traits in 1...come on man...you just cant make this up...
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.
Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.
Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.
A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.
That relic would be insanely powerful even as one use only
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.
Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.
Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.
A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.
That relic would be insanely powerful even as one use only
Yep - would still be auto include. Also in a meta sense - the only thing that will keep IH Levi from dominating the scene is the presense of ironstone. All its weapons are flat 2 damage...we might even start seeing grav flux bombard instead....
Mandragola wrote: He'd charge both. This is the downside of the character needing to be within 3" of the dread. Perfect gap for Shrike to fit in. Even if he can only make it to the dread with his charge he can still pile into the relic guy and blend him.
Then you send in something random like an infiltrator squad to surround the leviathan and keep Shrike in combat. Also, it's a really good idea to have first turn so these guys are all still alive by this point.
As tricky as this is to achieve, it's even worse if the IH player brought repulsors and redemptors instead of leviathans. Now, the leviathans just annoyingly float away and - even more annoyingly - shoot you approximately a bajillion times.
This is why double exectuiner levi is going to be all the jazz...You possition the executioners in such a way that you can't charge the levi solo. So -2 to charge comes into play and you pretty much have to charge at the back of the levi cause you can't be placed anywhere...Good luck with that charge dude. You gonna have to kill the executioners first...which is doable but they don't degrade easy and can't just be tied up to shut them down. This is also only doable with ignore overwatch which only a few units have access to.
For more SNG you can even include a chapter master for like 78 points and even more melle protection for your levi. Doubles the effectiveness of all your overwatch instead of reroll 1's. Plus if they have -1's to hits you basically ignore them. Probably still mandatory vs eldar anyways.
Oh BTW...still 30ish 6+ FNP intercessors in front of them too.
Put the chapter master in phobos and give him the vox epherium (or whatever TF its named) and nobody is dropping in or sneaking into within 15.1" either, coupled with the repulsers -2 charge to make up for him being behind the tanks and nobody is every making contact with that castle in a worthwhile way.
Mandragola wrote: Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.
Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem
Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.
Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.
Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.
A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.
That relic would be insanely powerful even as one use only
Yep - would still be auto include. Also in a meta sense - the only thing that will keep IH Levi from dominating the scene is the presense of ironstone. All its weapons are flat 2 damage...we might even start seeing grav flux bombard instead....
I thought about that, but honestly in a mirror your probably leaning on the executioners and first turn for board control. Everyone else just hopes the two IH players slap fight into a draw and drop in the rankings
I dont think youre going to see a ton of Iron Hands at the higher boards. For a couple of reasons.
1/ no movement shenanigans. How exactly is Iron Hands dealing with Tau? Are you just sitting back and trading gun for gun against them? IH are really tough but theyre also pretty slow, if you go for units that benefit from their CT the most.
2/ Ironstine etc is very powerful but only if they stay together. SO you're Balling up everything and moving out, there are so many armies that can get +2,3,4 to their charge rolls, or have an ignore overwatch relic/WT.
3/ Few High Powered units. Iron Hands are going to have a hard time rooting out MSU infantry armies that can hide. Why fight when you can hide and sit on objs? How many whirlwinds are they really going to take?
4/ Ravenguard. The Anti Iron Hands. If raven guard get the first turn they can effectively kill whatever is screening via one warlord trait and one Stratagem. Vanguard vets and 6 aggressors will clear all of that. The snipers will snipe the character with the Iron Stone and now youre just vehicles.
5/ CA2019 is coming, if the Levi Dread is doing really well, expect it to go up by 30-50 points.
Put the chapter master in phobos and give him the vox epherium (or whatever TF its named) and nobody is dropping in or sneaking into within 15.1" either, coupled with the repulsers -2 charge to make up for him being behind the tanks and nobody is every making contact with that castle in a worthwhile way.
That isnt going to work.
Space Marine FAQ wrote:
Page 185 – The Vox Espiritum
Change the second sentence to read:‘If a model has this Relic, add 3" to the range characteristic of its aura abilities (e.g. Rites of Battle) to a maximum of 9".
Put the chapter master in phobos and give him the vox epherium (or whatever TF its named) and nobody is dropping in or sneaking into within 15.1" either, coupled with the repulsers -2 charge to make up for him being behind the tanks and nobody is every making contact with that castle in a worthwhile way.
That isnt going to work.
Space Marine FAQ wrote:
Page 185 – The Vox Espiritum
Change the second sentence to read:‘If a model has this Relic, add 3" to the range characteristic of its aura abilities (e.g. Rites of Battle) to a maximum of 9".
Well sure that came out just now though But good to know though, but honestly it still does work, just not perfectly.
Red Corsair wrote: This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?
I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).
This is what is so annoying about this place everyone is so convinced that they know the game best and unit's need nerfed when the fact that so many broken lists can be built with 1 subfaction says it's the subfaction that needs rebalanced badly not the units.
Except the broken gimmick here is completely independent of my army being an IH successor. The exact same thing can be done with Ultras, sallies, or raven guard and their successors with 0 change in tactic(hide the impulsors from LOS and have them call in bombardments)
The "problem" with this is points cost. 93ppm. And knowing abuse of the option GW gave us. They also didn't give us much choice or think any of it through. The skytalon array is a joke(and why bother with the different name from the executioner's Twin Icarus ironhail heavy stubbers?). Missile array is at least half decent in all roles(and one of the options I will leave open). And only the Shield Dome actually helps the Impulsor in its role of moving small units around.
We asked for a Primaris Rhino-equivalent, we got a Razorback with bad guns that cannot carry the units we really want to get close.
demontalons wrote: I dont think youre going to see a ton of Iron Hands at the higher boards. For a couple of reasons.
1/ no movement shenanigans. How exactly is Iron Hands dealing with Tau? Are you just sitting back and trading gun for gun against them? IH are really tough but theyre also pretty slow, if you go for units that benefit from their CT the most.
2/ Ironstine etc is very powerful but only if they stay together. SO you're Balling up everything and moving out, there are so many armies that can get +2,3,4 to their charge rolls, or have an ignore overwatch relic/WT.
3/ Few High Powered units. Iron Hands are going to have a hard time rooting out MSU infantry armies that can hide. Why fight when you can hide and sit on objs? How many whirlwinds are they really going to take?
4/ Ravenguard. The Anti Iron Hands. If raven guard get the first turn they can effectively kill whatever is screening via one warlord trait and one Stratagem. Vanguard vets and 6 aggressors will clear all of that. The snipers will snipe the character with the Iron Stone and now youre just vehicles.
5/ CA2019 is coming, if the Levi Dread is doing really well, expect it to go up by 30-50 points.
That's way too early to say. Iron hands also have the best attack bikes, land speeders and fliers.
Those raven guard gimmicks BTW also instantly fall flat verse other marine armies infiltrators/phobos captains. It's also funny your bring up snipers because they benefit from their super doctrine a full turn before raven guard. Moving and ignoring penalty scout snipers with innate reroll 1's and -1 ap on turn 1 is something even raven guard should be a bit jealous of.
Red Corsair wrote: This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?
I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).
This is what is so annoying about this place everyone is so convinced that they know the game best and unit's need nerfed when the fact that so many broken lists can be built with 1 subfaction says it's the subfaction that needs rebalanced badly not the units.
Except the broken gimmick here is completely independent of my army being an IH successor. The exact same thing can be done with Ultras, sallies, or raven guard and their successors with 0 change in tactic(hide the impulsors from LOS and have them call in bombardments)
The "problem" with this is points cost. 93ppm. And knowing abuse of the option GW gave us. They also didn't give us much choice or think any of it through. The skytalon array is a joke(and why bother with the different name from the executioner's Twin Icarus ironhail heavy stubbers?). Missile array is at least half decent in all roles(and one of the options I will leave open). And only the Shield Dome actually helps the Impulsor in its role of moving small units around.
We asked for a Primaris Rhino-equivalent, we got a Razorback with bad guns that cannot carry the units we really want to get close.
I actually rate the invuln WAY above the bombardment. I have been play testing them both and the invuln always makes them better, and all game. The mortal wounds is very gimicky and nothing stops the other guy from shooting the ones that haven't spent theirs yet. I also wouldn't scoff at the tranport ability. Moving 14" + advancing then dtopping out with your back base edge within 3" and moving yourself is a stupid range band. Auto hitting auto bolters, hell blasters, many things get mileage from that and if your a white scar you can charge the tank in and out ever turn after all that movement.
I read through Daemontalon's post after posting my last response. There is some disconnect there.
1) There are many faster units with heavy weapons... Along with taking more melee-capable units that are faster moving. The super doctrine and CTs just mean that everything with a heavy weapon is more mobile, and mobile units(well, all units) are more durable.
2) Not completely true. Mostly meta netlists are saying "castle up in a bubble". You want your weapons in range, for some models that means moving forward quite a bit. You know what happens to a repulsor executioner that only moves 5" per turn and a competent opponent only putting big models anywhere within 24" of it? It wastes all of those points on close range gunsand gets focus-fired off the board early.
3) What? They have the same access to every unit that any other Codex chapter has. Eliminators can now move and fire executioner rounds with a 1+ to hit(or 2+ vs Altioc etc). Thunderfires exist. Everything else can just move around the intervening terain and fire as if they hadn't moved(see above). Or are you talking only about the Netlist castle again?
4) Ok, you are definitely thinking no list other than the netlist castle can exist.
5) I really wouldn't mind that. Sorry Levi-defenders, I really don't think any 10-shot Str-7 D-2 weapon should exist. Especially not for only 6 points more than a Twin Asscann/gun.
Edit: just double-checked the old dex cost on twin asscann; stormcannon arrays were proced 15 ppg more from the old dex. So we can certainly expect the Levi to go up in price. Probably close to 60/gun.
Kommissar Kel wrote: I really wouldn't mind that. Sorry Levi-defenders, I really don't think any 10-shot Str-7 D-2 weapon should exist. Especially not for only 6 points more than a Twin Asscann/gun.
If you really feel the need to nerf a unit just because atleast nerf the weapon your complaining about and not the base unit as it's noy like a melta or grav flux seige drill or CCW are currently under appropriately costed either.
Also you compairing them to twin assualt cannons, go compair them to punisher gattling cannons from IG.
Put the chapter master in phobos and give him the vox epherium (or whatever TF its named) and nobody is dropping in or sneaking into within 15.1" either, coupled with the repulsers -2 charge to make up for him being behind the tanks and nobody is every making contact with that castle in a worthwhile way.
That isnt going to work.
Space Marine FAQ wrote:
Page 185 – The Vox Espiritum
Change the second sentence to read:‘If a model has this Relic, add 3" to the range characteristic of its aura abilities (e.g. Rites of Battle) to a maximum of 9".
Well sure that came out just now though But good to know though, but honestly it still does work, just not perfectly.
It’s actually from the first version of the FAQ released on the 2nd of September.
Red Corsair wrote: It's also funny your bring up snipers because they benefit from their super doctrine a full turn before raven guard. Moving and ignoring penalty scout snipers with innate reroll 1's and -1 ap on turn 1 is something even raven guard should be a bit jealous of.
Not sure what you mean that IH benefit a full turn before raven guard?
Sniper rifles are Heavy 1, so all marine armies get -1 AP on sniper rifles in turn 1.
RG don’t get move & shoot or innate reroll 1s with sniper rifles, but they do get their +1hit/+1wound super doctrine on turn 1.
Tactical doctrine doesn’t add anything to Raven Guard sniper rifles. Actually makes them less effective on AP.
Red Corsair wrote: It's also funny your bring up snipers because they benefit from their super doctrine a full turn before raven guard. Moving and ignoring penalty scout snipers with innate reroll 1's and -1 ap on turn 1 is something even raven guard should be a bit jealous of.
Not sure what you mean that IH benefit a full turn before raven guard?
Sniper rifles are Heavy 1, so all marine armies get -1 AP on sniper rifles in turn 1.
RG don’t get move & shoot or innate reroll 1s with sniper rifles, but they do get their +1hit/+1wound super doctrine on turn 1.
Tactical doctrine doesn’t add anything to Raven Guard sniper rifles. Actually makes them less effective on AP.
Pretty sure Raven Guard only get +1 to hit and wound in tactical doctrine
Kommissar Kel wrote: I read through Daemontalon's post after posting my last response. There is some disconnect there.
1) There are many faster units with heavy weapons... Along with taking more melee-capable units that are faster moving. The super doctrine and CTs just mean that everything with a heavy weapon is more mobile, and mobile units(well, all units) are more durable.
2) Not completely true. Mostly meta netlists are saying "castle up in a bubble". You want your weapons in range, for some models that means moving forward quite a bit. You know what happens to a repulsor executioner that only moves 5" per turn and a competent opponent only putting big models anywhere within 24" of it? It wastes all of those points on close range gunsand gets focus-fired off the board early.
3) What? They have the same access to every unit that any other Codex chapter has. Eliminators can now move and fire executioner rounds with a 1+ to hit(or 2+ vs Altioc etc). Thunderfires exist. Everything else can just move around the intervening terain and fire as if they hadn't moved(see above). Or are you talking only about the Netlist castle again?
4) Ok, you are definitely thinking no list other than the netlist castle can exist.
5) I really wouldn't mind that. Sorry Levi-defenders, I really don't think any 10-shot Str-7 D-2 weapon should exist. Especially not for only 6 points more than a Twin Asscann/gun.
Edit: just double-checked the old dex cost on twin asscann; stormcannon arrays were proced 15 ppg more from the old dex. So we can certainly expect the Levi to go up in price. Probably close to 60/gun.
It's a 300 point unit. Think about 3 Assault Cannon Razorbacks.
5) I really wouldn't mind that. Sorry Levi-defenders, I really don't think any 10-shot Str-7 D-2 weapon should exist. Especially not for only 6 points more than a Twin Asscann/gun.
Edit: just double-checked the old dex cost on twin asscann; stormcannon arrays were proced 15 ppg more from the old dex. So we can certainly expect the Levi to go up in price. Probably close to 60/gun.
That's not really a fair comparison, though. The Twin Ass Cannon is a weapon with many possible platforms and is costed accordingly. The Stormcannon Array is, as far as I am aware, only available on one model, and is costed accordingly - The only thing its cost has to be balanced against is the other weapons on the Leviathan. (In the same way that guns like the Demolisher Cannon are not costed objectively, but rather have their cost based on the fact that it'll always be taken on a specific platform.)
Kommissar Kel wrote: You replied during my edit, so the first part is exactly what I was saying.
Punisher gatling cost is mostly baked in. But it is an example of a gun on a platform that is edging into the OP levels(mostly from grinding advance).
20 shots, 50% hit. 10 hits, 33.33% wound vehicles, no AP so only 33.33% of those do 1 damage each.
It's not 20 shots it's 40 it's also 20 points or 30 points less than 1 storm cannon array.
Take the Twin Autocannons
8 shots 48 inches double the range same Strength and damage, 1 less AP. It's 17 points and never taken.
A battle cannon is 22 points has 48 inches of additional range 2d6 shots +1Strength Same AP and d3 Damage avarages 2 damage
Even saying a commander is a over performing unit it's weapons still look bonkers next to leviathan weapons costs heck anyone ever seen a grav flux a claw or a melta lance?
That is exactly why I am comparing the asscann: 12 d1 s6 shots vs 10 d2 s7 shots.
You should have to pay much more for the higher s(16.666% increase in wounding hits) and double damage.
There also shouldn't be any D2 or higher weapons with more than 5 stable shots. D6/2d6? Yeah that is fine due to potential for 1 or 2 shots. Multiple shots with d3/d6 damage? Also fine because luck and law of averages. 10 s7(50% wounds vs most vehicles) D2 wounds is just too much.
That is exactly why I am comparing the asscann: 12 d1 s6 shots vs 10 d2 s7 shots.
You should have to pay much more for the higher s(16.666% increase in wounding hits) and double damage.
There also shouldn't be any D2 or higher weapons with more than 5 stable shots. D6/2d6? Yeah that is fine due to potential for 1 or 2 shots. Multiple shots with d3/d6 damage? Also fine because luck and law of averages. 10 s7(50% wounds vs most vehicles) D2 wounds is just too much.
Again, you're not fairly comparing cost. Stormcannons are costed subjectively for the platform they're on.
Also, why shouldn't there be a lot of shots on one gun, if the gun is expensive enough? It's a 300+ point model with only two main guns. Putting an arbitrary number on how many shots you think is "OK" is completely ridiculous. Would you be fine if it had four five-shot guns instead of two ten-shot guns?
That is exactly why I am comparing the asscann: 12 d1 s6 shots vs 10 d2 s7 shots.
You should have to pay much more for the higher s(16.666% increase in wounding hits) and double damage.
There also shouldn't be any D2 or higher weapons with more than 5 stable shots. D6/2d6? Yeah that is fine due to potential for 1 or 2 shots. Multiple shots with d3/d6 damage? Also fine because luck and law of averages. 10 s7(50% wounds vs most vehicles) D2 wounds is just too much.
And for the price of a Levi I can get 3 asscanbacks, which is 36 S6 D1 and the number of Storm Bolter shots (depending if you buy 1 or 2).
Asscannons were 15 points less expensive than the stormcannon array.
They are now only 6 points cheaper.
As far as the arbitrary number that I think is "ok": look at every weapon in every army, non-forgeworld.
The closest you get are titanic unit weapons. Even the stompa's supagatla is 3d6 shots D1. The closest you get is the Vulcan Megabolter(at only S6), on a base 428 point, no invulnerable save unit.
That is exactly why I am comparing the asscann: 12 d1 s6 shots vs 10 d2 s7 shots.
You should have to pay much more for the higher s(16.666% increase in wounding hits) and double damage.
There also shouldn't be any D2 or higher weapons with more than 5 stable shots. D6/2d6? Yeah that is fine due to potential for 1 or 2 shots. Multiple shots with d3/d6 damage? Also fine because luck and law of averages. 10 s7(50% wounds vs most vehicles) D2 wounds is just too much.
And for the price of a Levi I can get 3 asscanbacks, which is 36 S6 D1 and the number of Storm Bolter shots (depending if you buy 1 or 2).
Which are 36 D1 shots. Which is potentially more: 40 or 36? But that is assuming best possible outcome.
Vs T7 the asscann backs are hitting 24, wounding 8. The stormcannon array is hitting 13.333 wounding 6.66 for 12.66 damage.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Asscannons were 15 points less expensive than the stormcannon array.
They are now only 6 points cheaper.
As far as the arbitrary number that I think is "ok": look at every weapon in every army, non-forgeworld.
The closest you get are titanic unit weapons. Even the stompa's supagatla is 3d6 shots D1. The closest you get is the Vulcan Megabolter(at only S6), on a base 428 point, no invulnerable save unit.
That is exactly why I am comparing the asscann: 12 d1 s6 shots vs 10 d2 s7 shots.
You should have to pay much more for the higher s(16.666% increase in wounding hits) and double damage.
There also shouldn't be any D2 or higher weapons with more than 5 stable shots. D6/2d6? Yeah that is fine due to potential for 1 or 2 shots. Multiple shots with d3/d6 damage? Also fine because luck and law of averages. 10 s7(50% wounds vs most vehicles) D2 wounds is just too much.
And for the price of a Levi I can get 3 asscanbacks, which is 36 S6 D1 and the number of Storm Bolter shots (depending if you buy 1 or 2).
Which are 36 D1 shots. Which is potentially more: 40 or 36? But that is assuming best possible outcome.
Vs T7 the asscann backs are hitting 24, wounding 8. The stormcannon array is hitting 13.333 wounding 6.66 for 12.66 damage.
Do you just disregard platforms because?
It didn't matter when Hurricane Bolters were only 5 points because only a few platforms could take them. Does the price matter when all the platforms are all like frickin expensive? Jeez.
Also you forgot about all the other targets besides just T7 multiwound.
If I understand correctly, we dont get dev/tactical/assault tactics if we mix custodes and guard right?
If that's so, are the new buffs worth keeping them "pure", or is soup still better?
Playing necrons soon and was thinking about bringing custode shield captain bikes and a terminator squad for 700 points, rest being Primaris for 1300 (I only have primaris). Was leaving out my repulsor and executioner because those necron shields and d6 damage.
Red Corsair wrote: It's also funny your bring up snipers because they benefit from their super doctrine a full turn before raven guard. Moving and ignoring penalty scout snipers with innate reroll 1's and -1 ap on turn 1 is something even raven guard should be a bit jealous of.
Not sure what you mean that IH benefit a full turn before raven guard?
Sniper rifles are Heavy 1, so all marine armies get -1 AP on sniper rifles in turn 1.
RG don’t get move & shoot or innate reroll 1s with sniper rifles, but they do get their +1hit/+1wound super doctrine on turn 1.
Tactical doctrine doesn’t add anything to Raven Guard sniper rifles. Actually makes them less effective on AP.
Pretty sure Raven Guard only get +1 to hit and wound in tactical doctrine
Kommissar Kel wrote: Asscannons were 15 points less expensive than the stormcannon array.
They are now only 6 points cheaper.
As far as the arbitrary number that I think is "ok": look at every weapon in every army, non-forgeworld.
The closest you get are titanic unit weapons. Even the stompa's supagatla is 3d6 shots D1. The closest you get is the Vulcan Megabolter(at only S6), on a base 428 point, no invulnerable save unit.
This argument could be made for a huge variety of weapons, though.
Look at the punisher gatling cannon. Other than super heavies, nobody else gets 20 S5 shots on a single gun that can shoot twice!! And it's only 20 points!!! How unfair is that?
Look at the Heavy Laser Destroyer. FOUR whole S10 AP-4 D6 shots from a single gun? Other armies might need two whole guns to get that number of shots! And it costs even less than two Lascannons!
What about the Shokk Attack Gun? Nobody else gets that many AP-5 shots mounted onto a single weapon, especially a weapon that's only 25 points. And it can do mortal wounds! How can anyone possibly compete?
You are getting into conniptions because someone taped five Autocannons together and then tweaked the rules a bit.
Incidentally, one Stormcannon array costs the same as five Autocannons.
(Also, sidebar: Stompas suck. They are one of the worst units in the game, full stop. Comparing to them in order to make your argument look better just makes you look silly.)
Playing necrons soon and was thinking about bringing custode shield captain bikes and a terminator squad for 700 points, rest being Primaris for 1300 (I only have primaris). Was leaving out my repulsor and executioner because those necron shields and d6 damage.
Bring lots of D2 or D3 damage weapons, QS is mostly useless against those. Now, what good unit has D2 guns ? The leviathan Autocannons on dreads are fine against crons. Also anything that works against FLY, like stalker, hunter.
When picking psychic powers, do the supplements say that you must pick from a particular chapter's discipline, or that you may pick from that discipline? I'm trying to weasel my way in to Null Zone for a Raven Guard librarian.
You can either use the disciplines from the SM codex, or from your supplement, but you cant mix psychic powers. You would need two psykers if you want psychic powers from both books.
p5freak wrote: You can either use the disciplines from the SM codex, or from your supplement, but you cant mix psychic powers. You would need two psykers if you want psychic powers from both books.
You can mix powers from different disciplines with the Tome of Malcador. It lets you take an additional power from any discipline you have access to. You can't mix Librarius or Obscuration anymore though.
p5freak wrote: You can either use the disciplines from the SM codex, or from your supplement, but you cant mix psychic powers. You would need two psykers if you want psychic powers from both books.
You can mix powers from different disciplines with the Tome of Malcador. It lets you take an additional power from any discipline you have access to. You can't mix Librarius or Obscuration anymore though.
not since the codex release you can't. the wording changed.
p5freak wrote: You can either use the disciplines from the SM codex, or from your supplement, but you cant mix psychic powers. You would need two psykers if you want psychic powers from both books.
You can mix powers from different disciplines with the Tome of Malcador. It lets you take an additional power from any discipline you have access to. You can't mix Librarius or Obscuration anymore though.
not since the codex release you can't. the wording changed.
Rereading the relevant rules here I am not sure now.
The tome new wording is: "Librarian model only. A model with this Relic knows one additional psychic power from any discipline they have access to."
The RG supplement says: "Librarian models in Raven Guard detachments can know all of their psychic powers from the Umbramancy discipline instead of the Librarius or Obscuration disciplines."
So if I have a RG phobos librarian in a RG detachment, I have access to both Obscuration and Umbramancy. So when I take the tome as well does that third power have to be from same discipline as the other two or can be it from either? I do have access to both.
Quick question. Are people finding Primaris units work better as 5 man MSU or as full squads with the new UM rules and some of the generic SM strats?
Some units like the infiltrators, eliminators and deep striking units like Reivers and interceptors and suppressors might be better as smaller units due to foot print on deep strike but thinking more on the likes of intercessors aggressors and hellblasters
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question. Are people finding Primaris units work better as 5 man MSU or as full squads with the new UM rules and some of the generic SM strats?
Some units like the infiltrators, eliminators and deep striking units like Reivers and interceptors and suppressors might be better as smaller units due to foot print on deep strike but thinking more on the likes of intercessors aggressors and hellblasters
It depends. If your game plan evolves around using certain stratagems, warlord traits, etc.like rapid fire that only work on a single unit then larger units would be better, otherwise though MSU is the way to go IMO. MSU helps you fill out detachments faster and gives better target saturation.
Playing necrons soon and was thinking about bringing custode shield captain bikes and a terminator squad for 700 points, rest being Primaris for 1300 (I only have primaris). Was leaving out my repulsor and executioner because those necron shields and d6 damage.
Bring lots of D2 or D3 damage weapons, QS is mostly useless against those. Now, what good unit has D2 guns ? The leviathan Autocannons on dreads are fine against crons. Also anything that works against FLY, like stalker, hunter.
Thanks! Sadly I'm limited to only primaris, so I only have 3 suppressor guys for auto cannons. Do have a stormhawk though. So would you say custodes are worth bringing, or nah? If you had to go primaris only, what ideally would you bring?
p5freak wrote: You can either use the disciplines from the SM codex, or from your supplement, but you cant mix psychic powers. You would need two psykers if you want psychic powers from both books.
You can mix powers from different disciplines with the Tome of Malcador. It lets you take an additional power from any discipline you have access to. You can't mix Librarius or Obscuration anymore though.
not since the codex release you can't. the wording changed.
Rereading the relevant rules here I am not sure now.
The tome new wording is: "Librarian model only. A model with this Relic knows one additional psychic power from any discipline they have access to."
The RG supplement says: "Librarian models in Raven Guard detachments can know all of their psychic powers from the Umbramancy discipline instead of the Librarius or Obscuration disciplines."
So if I have a RG phobos librarian in a RG detachment, I have access to both Obscuration and Umbramancy. So when I take the tome as well does that third power have to be from same discipline as the other two or can be it from either? I do have access to both.
Thank you for the exact wording. I have the new Space Marine codex, but my Raven Guard supplement is still in the mail.
Its interesting that the FAQ applies to the old codex, but not the new one. Perhaps they just thought it was redundant. Without that, based on the wording here, it would seem like the Tome would allow you to pick from 2-3 disciplines (depending on whether you're Phobos or not).
With the new codex nobody should even consider necrons when building their army competitively lmao. The power gap is so absurd you should only be toning your list down verse them during friendly games
p5freak wrote: You can either use the disciplines from the SM codex, or from your supplement, but you cant mix psychic powers. You would need two psykers if you want psychic powers from both books.
You can mix powers from different disciplines with the Tome of Malcador. It lets you take an additional power from any discipline you have access to. You can't mix Librarius or Obscuration anymore though.
not since the codex release you can't. the wording changed.
Rereading the relevant rules here I am not sure now.
The tome new wording is: "Librarian model only. A model with this Relic knows one additional psychic power from any discipline they have access to."
The RG supplement says: "Librarian models in Raven Guard detachments can know all of their psychic powers from the Umbramancy discipline instead of the Librarius or Obscuration disciplines."
So if I have a RG phobos librarian in a RG detachment, I have access to both Obscuration and Umbramancy. So when I take the tome as well does that third power have to be from same discipline as the other two or can be it from either? I do have access to both.
Thank you for the exact wording. I have the new Space Marine codex, but my Raven Guard supplement is still in the mail.
Its interesting that the FAQ applies to the old codex, but not the new one. Perhaps they just thought it was redundant. Without that, based on the wording here, it would seem like the Tome would allow you to pick from 2-3 disciplines (depending on whether you're Phobos or not).
The way it's written for picking powers for librarians in both the main codex and supplements implies the intention was that you can only know powers from a single discipline but as usual GW has been keeping loopholes in vagueness of wordings for people to argue over.
The supliment says you can know all powers from supliment powers instead of the codex powers (no mix and matching) this should apply even with the tome additional power aswell but GW hasn't been great at wording of relics to be clear.
Red Corsair wrote: With the new codex nobody should even consider necrons when building their army competitively lmao. The power gap is so absurd you should only be toning your list down verse them during friendly games
As someone that mained Necrons 4th onwards, I can tell you this is true. QS spam can be okay but that's about it. They're not offensively that good
U02dah4 wrote: The tome lets you take an additional psychic power but the librarians must take all their psychic powers from one disipline.
The keyword is "all"
To know to start, yes. But the tome says 1 power they have “access” to. Each librarian had access to 2 schools. I’m assuming it’ll be FAQed to all from the picked school like it was before, but RAW I’m in the camp that you could mix.
U02dah4 wrote: The tome lets you take an additional psychic power but the librarians must take all their psychic powers from one disipline.
The keyword is "all"
To know to start, yes. But the tome says 1 power they have “access” to. Each librarian had access to 2 schools. I’m assuming it’ll be FAQed to all from the picked school like it was before, but RAW I’m in the camp that you could mix.
It will be logical that we can use a psychic power from another « school ». It’s a spellbook at the end
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question. Are people finding Primaris units work better as 5 man MSU or as full squads with the new UM rules and some of the generic SM strats?
Some units like the infiltrators, eliminators and deep striking units like Reivers and interceptors and suppressors might be better as smaller units due to foot print on deep strike but thinking more on the likes of intercessors aggressors and hellblasters
It depends. If your game plan evolves around using certain stratagems, warlord traits, etc.like rapid fire that only work on a single unit then larger units would be better, otherwise though MSU is the way to go IMO. MSU helps you fill out detachments faster and gives better target saturation.
It was the use of the intercessor strats I was thinking of plus a Deathstar unit of 6 aggressors with the bolt gauntlets and Missile launchers and putting them near Gman and a chaplain with the +1 wound litany and using the UM strat that gives them extra ap on a 6 as well as the strat that allows me to put them on the tactical doctrine from turn 1 and just marching them up the field firing at 1 unit at a time. I’d also have an apothecary and an ancient with the UM banner relic for wound heals and extra shooting when a model dies. Not to mention +1 attack when they all reach combat
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question. Are people finding Primaris units work better as 5 man MSU or as full squads with the new UM rules and some of the generic SM strats?
Some units like the infiltrators, eliminators and deep striking units like Reivers and interceptors and suppressors might be better as smaller units due to foot print on deep strike but thinking more on the likes of intercessors aggressors and hellblasters
It depends. If your game plan evolves around using certain stratagems, warlord traits, etc.like rapid fire that only work on a single unit then larger units would be better, otherwise though MSU is the way to go IMO. MSU helps you fill out detachments faster and gives better target saturation.
It was the use of the intercessor strats I was thinking of plus a Deathstar unit of 6 aggressors with the bolt gauntlets and Missile launchers and putting them near Gman and a chaplain with the +1 wound litany and using the UM strat that gives them extra ap on a 6 as well as the strat that allows me to put them on the tactical doctrine from turn 1 and just marching them up the field firing at 1 unit at a time. I’d also have an apothecary and an ancient with the UM banner relic for wound heals and extra shooting when a model dies. Not to mention +1 attack when they all reach combat
For units like the aggressors bigger units are better. Otherwise if you don't plan on stacking buffs like that you are better off with MSU. As far as the Intercessor strats go bigger squads are better but with all the others strats that marines have access to now with the supplements, I am not sure the intercessor strats are worth it at this point. It may be better to spend the CPs elsewhere and take MSU intercessors to fill out battalions.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question. Are people finding Primaris units work better as 5 man MSU or as full squads with the new UM rules and some of the generic SM strats?
Some units like the infiltrators, eliminators and deep striking units like Reivers and interceptors and suppressors might be better as smaller units due to foot print on deep strike but thinking more on the likes of intercessors aggressors and hellblasters
5 mans are great on their own but 10 mans make best use of stratagems like rapid fire and the sniper strat for stalkers. Including one 10 man unit is something I typically do but ultimately this will be the unit that gets targeted first. Just make sure that unit is in cover. MSU is the way to got now for most your squads because we actually have good stratagems so you really need to fill out 2 batallions to get the most out of them.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question. Are people finding Primaris units work better as 5 man MSU or as full squads with the new UM rules and some of the generic SM strats?
Some units like the infiltrators, eliminators and deep striking units like Reivers and interceptors and suppressors might be better as smaller units due to foot print on deep strike but thinking more on the likes of intercessors aggressors and hellblasters
5 mans are great on their own but 10 mans make best use of stratagems like rapid fire and the sniper strat for stalkers. Including one 10 man unit is something I typically do but ultimately this will be the unit that gets targeted first. Just make sure that unit is in cover. MSU is the way to got now for most your squads because we actually have good stratagems so you really need to fill out 2 batallions to get the most out of them.
Thanks for the advice. Think I’ll go for the 10 man intercessors and 6 man aggressors and basically MSU the rest especially the vanguard units. Planning on going full Primaris except Roboute but then he seems to fit in that design and perhaps my grav centurions to make some use of the new grav strat as well.
Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.
Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks
Bryten wrote: Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.
Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks
You can do it, and it would add 8 wounds (honor guards have 6 wounds +2 from ignore on 5+) to a single, or multiple characters. And they only get to ignore on 5+ if you roll a 3+ at the start of the battle round. But is it worth 132 pts. ? You can get an additional character for those points.
Bryten wrote: Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.
Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks
You can do it, and it would add 8 wounds (honor guards have 6 wounds +2 from ignore on 5+) to a single, or multiple characters. And they only get to ignore on 5+ if you roll a 3+ at the start of the battle round. But is it worth 132 pts. ? You can get an additional character for those points.
Victrix are only 60 pts for 2 models and they have 3 wounds each. I am running chaplain cassius so can take a second prayer as well, such as the +hit or wound to shooting. I think the flexibility of choosing to save a certain character is worth the points, and calgar is even halving the wounds before he pass them on to the Victrix. As I see it you even get a chance to ignore the mortal wounds on 5+ twice, first on your character then on the guards (since they are turned into mortals) and that is after you save on your characters (depending what kind of fire is incoming of course).
Bryten wrote: Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.
Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks
You can do it, and it would add 8 wounds (honor guards have 6 wounds +2 from ignore on 5+) to a single, or multiple characters. And they only get to ignore on 5+ if you roll a 3+ at the start of the battle round. But is it worth 132 pts. ? You can get an additional character for those points.
Victrix are only 60 pts for 2 models and they have 3 wounds each. I am running chaplain cassius so can take a second prayer as well, such as the +hit or wound to shooting. I think the flexibility of choosing to save a certain character is worth the points, and calgar is even halving the wounds before he pass them on to the Victrix. As I see it you even get a chance to ignore the mortal wounds on 5+ twice, first on your character then on the guards (since they are turned into mortals) and that is after you save on your characters (depending what kind of fire is incoming of course).
You only ever get one "Ignore Damage" roll per model. So you can either take the 2+ Victrix pass, and then THEY get the 5+, or take a 5+ on your character, but CANNOT pass it on.
Bryten wrote: Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.
Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks
You can do it, and it would add 8 wounds (honor guards have 6 wounds +2 from ignore on 5+) to a single, or multiple characters. And they only get to ignore on 5+ if you roll a 3+ at the start of the battle round. But is it worth 132 pts. ? You can get an additional character for those points.
Victrix are only 60 pts for 2 models and they have 3 wounds each. I am running chaplain cassius so can take a second prayer as well, such as the +hit or wound to shooting. I think the flexibility of choosing to save a certain character is worth the points, and calgar is even halving the wounds before he pass them on to the Victrix. As I see it you even get a chance to ignore the mortal wounds on 5+ twice, first on your character then on the guards (since they are turned into mortals) and that is after you save on your characters (depending what kind of fire is incoming of course).
You only ever get one "Ignore Damage" roll per model. So you can either take the 2+ Victrix pass, and then THEY get the 5+, or take a 5+ on your character, but CANNOT pass it on.
The litany text: "Chaper unit with in 6" of this model would lose a wound as a result of a mortal wound, roll d6, on 5+ that wound is not lost." Victrix guard ability: "Roll on d6, on a 2+ that model does not lose those wounds and this unit suffers 1 mortal wound for each of those wounds. Only one attempt can be made to intercept that attack."
Lets say 1 eliminator wounds you with a shot on a 6+ and I also failed the normal saving throw. I can first attempt to block the mortal wound on my character on a 5+, lets say I fail, I take total 2 normal wounds and 1 mortal. I can now intercept that attack with my victrix on a 2+ and that passes on as 3 mortal wounds on the victrix that I can attempt to deny on +5. As per the rules I cannot see how this is not ok?
Bryten wrote: Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.
Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks
Nothing prevents them from just shooting the vitrix guard first. Yeah they are a little bit beefy but they are plenty of weapons that remove them pretty easily. That is a huge investment just to get picked off by bolters.
Could see 10 veteran intercessors with a PF Sgt doing some serious damage. Millions of shots with their bolters and 4 attacks each first round of combat with 5 for the sergeant!
Give him a thunder hammer and the honoured sergeant (or whatever it’s called in the other supplements) strat to make it master crafted and you have a 4damage thunder hammer on a guy with 5 attacks. Then slap on the gene wrought might strat and any 6s to hit auto wound as well in melee.
Still got a battalion box of Marines from apoc sat on my top shelf eagerly awaiting news about the black templars and Imperial fists supplements.
I've already. Got over 3k of crimson fists painted and would love to try something else out on the tabletop. Black templars would be very cool if they got their crusader squads in the form of Primaris troops back.
Bryten wrote: Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.
Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks
Nothing prevents them from just shooting the vitrix guard first. Yeah they are a little bit beefy but they are plenty of weapons that remove them pretty easily. That is a huge investment just to get picked off by bolters.
Can you math at all? They're not getting picked off by Bolters.
Bryten wrote: Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.
Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks
Nothing prevents them from just shooting the vitrix guard first. Yeah they are a little bit beefy but they are plenty of weapons that remove them pretty easily. That is a huge investment just to get picked off by bolters.
Can you math at all? They're not getting picked off by Bolters.
Hardly "picked off", but the thought is probably, "Since they have 3+ invul, the optimal weapon is AP-1, S5+, with up to D3 a shot". Not really sure what that is in a space marine army other than primaris type bolters and assault cannons? Maybe Autocannons/Predator Autocannons?
Regardless, the thought is don't waste heavy weapons on a 3+ invul. It's isn't harder to put down 2 of these guys with intercessor bolt guns than it is to kill 6 tactical marines.
I was running Vitrix for a while. It seemed really good to have such high saves on cheapish models.
In practice, they're not as strong i think. Reasons? A. They don't shoot, and just have to walk into combat. Why not have more shooting? B. I'm not sure why you're worried about snipers.
C. They tend to actually die relatively easily. I know they have high saves, but the low toughness and model count means they give away easy kill points in practice.
So I have a 500pt game tomorrow but I've not played Marines at all since the new Codex dropped. I used to run a Tac-heavy Lias RG list but haven't played 500pts at all in years.
I have a rough idea of what he'll be running, mainly as I gave him tips on his 500 list earlier today for another game.
HQ Company Commander
- Plasma Pistol
- Power Sword
- Laurels of Command
- Superior Tactical Training
Lord Commissar
- Plasma Pistol
- Power Sword
Troops Infantry Squad
- Voxcaster
Infantry Squad
- Voxcaster
Infantry Squad
- Voxcaster
Elites Command Squad
- Medi-pack
- Regimental Standard
- Voxcaster
Platoon Commander
5x Ratlings
Heavy Support Heavy Weapon Squad
- 3x Lascannon
Wyvern
I suggested he drop the Command Squad for a Mortar HWS.
Now I have roughly 2500pts of Marines at my disposal, but not many Primaris units; only 1 squad of Intercessors, Reivers and Hellblasters each.
I think at 500pts my options are quite limited so here's a first attempt.
HQ Captain
- Power Sword
- MC Bolter
Lieutenant
Troops 5x Intercessors
- Auto Boltrifle
7x Intercessors
- Boltrifles
5x Tactical Marines
- Heavy Bolter
Heavy Support 5x Devastators
- Rockets
- Armoury Cherub
Total - 487
Any thoughts? As to Chapter Traits I'm thinking Long Range Marksmen and Master Artisans. The rerolls from MA will help mitigate the lack of CP since I'm only taking a Patrol.
Bryten wrote: Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.
Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks
Nothing prevents them from just shooting the vitrix guard first. Yeah they are a little bit beefy but they are plenty of weapons that remove them pretty easily. That is a huge investment just to get picked off by bolters.
Can you math at all? They're not getting picked off by Bolters.
Hardly "picked off", but the thought is probably, "Since they have 3+ invul, the optimal weapon is AP-1, S5+, with up to D3 a shot". Not really sure what that is in a space marine army other than primaris type bolters and assault cannons? Maybe Autocannons/Predator Autocannons?
Regardless, the thought is don't waste heavy weapons on a 3+ invul. It's isn't harder to put down 2 of these guys with intercessor bolt guns than it is to kill 6 tactical marines.
Ty...excellent explanation. Not any hard to kill these guys with anti chaf weapons than it is to kill primaris marines...which do in fact die to weight of fire. 2+ save offers some protection but every army is going to have an easy way to get rid of these guys.
It occurs to me that if you put the Storm Bolter Rapid Fire 4 relic on a Techmarine, and gave them a servoharness with plasma cutter and flamer, then gave him the Paragon of War warlord trait, you'd be pumping out a lot a looooot of wound rolls each turn to try and roll your natural 6s to get your mortal wounds.
Fifty wrote: It occurs to me that if you put the Storm Bolter Rapid Fire 4 relic on a Techmarine, and gave them a servoharness with plasma cutter and flamer, then gave him the Paragon of War warlord trait, you'd be pumping out a lot a looooot of wound rolls each turn to try and roll your natural 6s to get your mortal wounds.
Yeah it's pretty nice. I've done that before. Works best on a termi captain though because you will get 8 shots at 24" on turn 1.
Crazyterran wrote: Captain on Bike with that does the job fairly well as well. Rapid Fire 4 Relic and Rapid Fire 2 TL Bolter is pretty good for fairly cheap.
Ill have to try that. I always forget I have a biker captain.
Not sure if others have noticed this, but the Stormhawk infernum halo launcher rules have changed.
It used to be re roll armour saves of 1 (crap) and is now an additional -1 to hit from FLY key word units. This, in an era of everything having fly, is actually a pretty big change. My go to chapter trait combo at the moment is long range marksmen and stealthy for a -2 to hit, 2+ save flyer. Might have to get a second one.
Good spot. I think that makes Stormhawks even more worth considering. It’s sort of a shame that they’re so much better as Iron Hands than for anyone else though.
Still waiting to see what my Crimson Fist rules will be, but I can’t really imagine they’ll be better for my (currently grey plastic) vehicles than Iron Hands are.
I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).
Well yeah, that. I don’t exactly have to pay to win to have a pretty optimised IH army under the current rules. My pile of grey plastic shame is extensive. It currently includes three repulsor executioners and at least two or three planes. I’ve also got the whole contents of shadowspear, ~20 intercessors and a redemptor dread.
Two or three things are stopping me:
- Black armour is boring in my opinion. I’m a decent painter and would prefer something more visually appealing.
- I like my Crimson Fists and want to see their rules.
- I’m not sure I’d enjoy the play style – though planes might make the army considerably more fun.
I’ve got this vague idea of painting up some guys as a homebrew chapter. Ever since I saw Primaris I’ve been curious to see how they’d look in camouflage. I’m quite keen to try out both Raven Guard and Iron Hands so I could potentially use some of my grey plastic guys to make something like this.
ewar wrote: I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).
If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.
ewar wrote: I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).
If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.
I agree that's the most likely outcome. Also the character dreads will definitely get set to be only one model I think.
I'm fortunate that my marines are my own chapter with a mysterious past... so I play around with a few different chapter tactics. The IH castle is just boring play, same as the guilliman castle was, but at least Bobby could counter punch in the late game which added some interest.
I'm thinking of an Ultras list which runs pure dakka, probably 300+ bolt rounds in turn 2. Combined with IF tactic for exploding 6s could be very nice, but is it worth 2cps?
Any other ideas?
I didn't get any takers on this question the other day, probably because I posted it at the height of the IH shock.
I'm sure that collectively there must be some good ideas out there for picking the best of the CTs. Is the IH one worth it turn 1? You don't get the super doctrine, so I think probably not, but it might be worth trying out. Actually thinking about it, getting a 5+ overwatch for a turn combined with the UM strat for +3 units firing overwatch would be pretty damned funny.
I actually don’t think the IH castle will be as boring as castles tend to be. It’s inherently quite mobile, relative to most other gunlines.
That said, I tend to think that aura abilities are bad for the game. It’s dull to blob everything together. That’s partly why I like the idea of flyers for IH, because they’ll inevitably zoom off. And it’ll be pretty useful to have them do so, to root out people hiding out of LoS.
ewar wrote: I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).
If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.
Honestly their super doctrine is probably the biggest issue outside of iron stone. It is just flat out too good. It should probably get nerfed to just reroll 1's without the move and shoot penalty removal and just make ironstone single target AND can not stack with other damage mitigation.
I posted a rough 2000pt list idea in the lists forum, curious what you guys think of the viability. Short form it’s 2 BA smash caps, loyal 32, and then a bunch of RG jump chars, invictors, and an aggressor blob to ambush up. And of course 30 scouts to put some bolter bodies all over.
I was thinking about RG turn 1 charge list ideas and thought about souping in BA smash captains to get both their wings redeploy, bigger hammers, and their deny overwatch relic. If charging in turn 1/2 anyways I’m not really using the RG doctrine and it’s too early for the White Scar one, so is souping even hurting that much?
As long as it avoids getting shot to pieces before the jump chars can get in cc I think it’s do quite well vs IH, that’s enough melee hits to drop the IH vehicles while avoiding their overwatch and has some charge bonuses to counter the -2”. But I also don’t want to over tailor vs IH and be too weak vs other matchups either.
ewar wrote: I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).
If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.
Honestly their super doctrine is probably the biggest issue outside of iron stone. It is just flat out too good. It should probably get nerfed to just reroll 1's without the move and shoot penalty removal and just make ironstone single target AND can not stack with other damage mitigation.
Mandragola wrote: Well yeah, that. I don’t exactly have to pay to win to have a pretty optimised IH army under the current rules. My pile of grey plastic shame is extensive. It currently includes three repulsor executioners and at least two or three planes. I’ve also got the whole contents of shadowspear, ~20 intercessors and a redemptor dread.
Two or three things are stopping me:
- Black armour is boring in my opinion. I’m a decent painter and would prefer something more visually appealing.
- I like my Crimson Fists and want to see their rules.
- I’m not sure I’d enjoy the play style – though planes might make the army considerably more fun.
I’ve got this vague idea of painting up some guys as a homebrew chapter. Ever since I saw Primaris I’ve been curious to see how they’d look in camouflage. I’m quite keen to try out both Raven Guard and Iron Hands so I could potentially use some of my grey plastic guys to make something like this.
Crimson Fists have the worst Tactic by far. I'd highly recommend going against it unless they're allowed to be ran under Imperial Fists like they originally were.
ewar wrote: I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).
If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.
Honestly their super doctrine is probably the biggest issue outside of iron stone. It is just flat out too good. It should probably get nerfed to just reroll 1's without the move and shoot penalty removal and just make ironstone single target AND can not stack with other damage mitigation.
So make the army garbage, got it
How would it be garbage...WS have to wait until turn 3 to get any benefit without stratagems out of their super doctrine. Ironhands start turn 1 - reroll1's with heavies is great compared to like (DA reroll 1's if they stay still, Same with the orks ability) and these armys don't also have 3 other competitive traits for their chapter tactic too..GET REAL...Ultras have to wait unitl turn 2 to move without penalty and they lose AP for it.
Mandragola wrote: Well yeah, that. I don’t exactly have to pay to win to have a pretty optimised IH army under the current rules. My pile of grey plastic shame is extensive. It currently includes three repulsor executioners and at least two or three planes. I’ve also got the whole contents of shadowspear, ~20 intercessors and a redemptor dread.
Two or three things are stopping me:
- Black armour is boring in my opinion. I’m a decent painter and would prefer something more visually appealing.
- I like my Crimson Fists and want to see their rules.
- I’m not sure I’d enjoy the play style – though planes might make the army considerably more fun.
I’ve got this vague idea of painting up some guys as a homebrew chapter. Ever since I saw Primaris I’ve been curious to see how they’d look in camouflage. I’m quite keen to try out both Raven Guard and Iron Hands so I could potentially use some of my grey plastic guys to make something like this.
Crimson Fists have the worst Tactic by far. I'd highly recommend going against it unless they're allowed to be ran under Imperial Fists like they originally were.
It's not the worst - it's just significantly worse than imperial fists.
The 6's with bolt weapons generating an additional hit is REALLY good. Ultras tactic is the worst hands down.
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
We also have no idea what the CF super doctrine will be (if they get a different one to IF). It might be all kinds of awesome. We'll have to wait and see.
Indeed, which is why so much of my plastic is still grey right now. I actually kind of feel like the army is finished and I wouldn't mind painting something different, but on the other hand I've enjoyed using them and it would be cool to keep doing so.
Mandragola wrote: Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.
I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.
As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.
Probably true about Templars. They lack the units to really make use of the doctrine, which isn’t all that useful anyway.
But pretty much all the CTs are situational. The Ravenguard one is awesome against Tau or IG, but irrelevant against most chaos or GSC armies, and easily negated by Eldar. The Ultramarines one doesn’t come up often at all – units that fly can fall back anyway and stuff that can’t will often be wrapped.
This is part of what makes Iron Hands look so good. Their CT always applies because the bad guys will almost always try to kill your dudes. And it helps to have an always on super-doctrine.
I’ve honestly always found Crimson Fists fine in comparison. It’s just a problem that right now we’ve got no super doctrine, relics, warlord traits and so on. That obviously puts the army way behind the others. Even so I’ve been playing the army in tournaments since the start of 8th and they’ve always done reasonably well – qualifying for the GT finals both of the years I took them. And that was before marines were any good.
That said, they’ve always been a kind of casual tournament army for me – one that will do fine but not an army to go 5:0 with. I could see a good IH or RG army winning events now.
Xenomancers wrote: WS have to wait until turn 3 to get any benefit without stratagems out of their super doctrine. Ironhands start turn 1 - reroll1's with heavies is great compared to like (DA reroll 1's if they stay still, Same with the orks ability) and these armys don't also have 3 other competitive traits for their chapter tactic too..GET REAL...Ultras have to wait unitl turn 2 to move without penalty and they lose AP for it.
Because the doctrine, a single relic and one or two strats are all the IH book has going for it. Gut the doctrine, you gut the army.
Also I love how you're still crapping on White Scars, which are the polar opposite. They dont give a damn about their doctrine. Their strength comes from multiple good strats, WL traits and relics, plus the ability to massively punish gunlines by getting in their face at a time and place of their own choosing.
Xenomancers wrote: WS have to wait until turn 3 to get any benefit without stratagems out of their super doctrine. Ironhands start turn 1 - reroll1's with heavies is great compared to like (DA reroll 1's if they stay still, Same with the orks ability) and these armys don't also have 3 other competitive traits for their chapter tactic too..GET REAL...Ultras have to wait unitl turn 2 to move without penalty and they lose AP for it.
Because the doctrine, a single relic and one or two strats are all the IH book has going for it. Gut the doctrine, you gut the army.
Also I love how you're still crapping on White Scars, which are the polar opposite. They dont give a damn about their doctrine. Their strength comes from multiple good strats, WL traits and relics, plus the ability to massively punish gunlines by getting in their face at a time and place of their own choosing.
This. Nerf iron stone and feirros if you want but the doctrine still leaves a very mobile shooty marine force. I can see a list based on impulsors/Razorbacks and fliers maybe backed up by some dreads for lascannons being able to work well.
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ewar wrote: So the whole of 8th people have been crying out for tanks that can fall back and shoot. We get given tanks that can fall back and shoot.
Now all of a sudden it's the worst CT!? You guys are nuts. Big dev cent blobs being able to fall back and shoot? Amazing.
UM CT is a real all rounder. It's almost like it caters to taking a mix of units and a balanced play style....
No just that one guy is nuts. UM CT is damn fine and their doctrine makes units like aggressors nutty.
To me it seems like most of the chapters we've seen so far look decent, but IH look broken.
There’s a pretty scattergun approach to balancing super doctrines, relics, strats and so on. All codexes feature a lot of “meh” options. Some are great.
IH benefit from a very strong super doctrine that’s active all the time, a great special character and a relic that’s far too powerful. Their strats might not be all that amazing but there’s still some really good stuff in there – letting intercessors tank wounds for characters and a deny the witch on a 4+ strat, for example.
This coincidence of good abilities has kind of always been why some sub-factions get picked more than others, for every army in 40k. If all marines are IH in future is it any worse than all Eldar being Alaitoc and all Tau being… Tau (apart from sometimes a detachment from the world where everyone is a firesight marksman)?
In a way it’s good that marines are getting rewarded for not souping. Let’s just not pretend that the abilities the different chapters get are in any way balanced.
And so, if I’m going to make an army to try and win events, it’ll probably be Iron hands. Maybe Raven Guard and just possibly Crimson Fists. But I can’t even plan a list for now until I get my rules.
I actually picked up Shrike to add to my grey plastic pile of shame last night. No Iron Fathers in stock though – ominously!
Mandragola wrote: Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
NO other Chapter Tactic relies on your opponent's army composition. Even Ultramarines, if your opponent runs all guns, can make use of charging to tie up units and then falling back to shoot as something aggressive. Imperial Fists help deny good deployment with terrain.
Crimson Fists, meanwhile, can have a game where you can't even get that bonus to hit because the opponent built their army wrong for you to benefit. Kantor himself might be good, and yeah the Fist Relic is good, but that doesn't make for a good army. They at least functioned when they were under the Imperial Fists rules themselves.
Mandragola wrote: Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.
I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.
As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.
Black Templars getting the rewording on their charge makes them significantly stronger as a melee centric army. The Mortal wound 5+++ is just a bonus at that point and excellent for Psyker spam that STILL happens.
Mandragola wrote: Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
NO other Chapter Tactic relies on your opponent's army composition. Even Ultramarines, if your opponent runs all guns, can make use of charging to tie up units and then falling back to shoot as something aggressive. Imperial Fists help deny good deployment with terrain.
Crimson Fists, meanwhile, can have a game where you can't even get that bonus to hit because the opponent built their army wrong for you to benefit. Kantor himself might be good, and yeah the Fist Relic is good, but that doesn't make for a good army. They at least functioned when they were under the Imperial Fists rules themselves.
Mandragola wrote: Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.
I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.
As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.
Black Templars getting the rewording on their charge makes them significantly stronger as a melee centric army. The Mortal wound 5+++ is just a bonus at that point and excellent for Psyker spam that STILL happens.
You gotta be kidding me. Close to half the armies in the game want to be no where near marines units and fall back and shoot is 100% useless here. +1 LD almost always 100% useless. I'd trade it for CF any day of the week vs literally any opponent just for the 6's generating additional hits on bolt weapons the +1 to hit would be an okay bonus and more useful than fallback and shoot in probably more games than the ability to fall back and shoot at -1 to hit. heck the 5+ overwatch for ironhands is better than the ability to fall back and shoot because things literally wont be able to charge you a lot of times. Try playing ultramarines sometime and lean something - playing ultras is like not having a chapter tactic in most of your games.
Mandragola wrote: Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
NO other Chapter Tactic relies on your opponent's army composition. Even Ultramarines, if your opponent runs all guns, can make use of charging to tie up units and then falling back to shoot as something aggressive. Imperial Fists help deny good deployment with terrain.
Crimson Fists, meanwhile, can have a game where you can't even get that bonus to hit because the opponent built their army wrong for you to benefit. Kantor himself might be good, and yeah the Fist Relic is good, but that doesn't make for a good army. They at least functioned when they were under the Imperial Fists rules themselves.
Mandragola wrote: Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.
I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.
As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.
Black Templars getting the rewording on their charge makes them significantly stronger as a melee centric army. The Mortal wound 5+++ is just a bonus at that point and excellent for Psyker spam that STILL happens.
You gotta be kidding me. Close to half the armies in the game want to be no where near marines units and fall back and shoot is 100% useless here. +1 LD almost always 100% useless. I'd trade it for CF any day of the week vs literally any opponent just for the 6's generating additional hits on bolt weapons the +1 to hit would be an okay bonus and more useful than fallback and shoot in probably more games than the ability to fall back and shoot at -1 to hit. heck the 5+ overwatch for ironhands is better than the ability to fall back and shoot because things literally wont be able to charge you a lot of times. Try playing ultramarines sometime and lean something - playing ultras is like not having a chapter tactic in most of your games.
I like how you ignored how I suggested how to use the Fall Back + Shoot aggressively just so you could whine "Woe is me" once more.
Also you still said Vitrix get pelted by Bolters and die. So once again it's pretty damn hard to take what you say seriously. At all.
Mandragola wrote: Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
NO other Chapter Tactic relies on your opponent's army composition. Even Ultramarines, if your opponent runs all guns, can make use of charging to tie up units and then falling back to shoot as something aggressive. Imperial Fists help deny good deployment with terrain.
Crimson Fists, meanwhile, can have a game where you can't even get that bonus to hit because the opponent built their army wrong for you to benefit. Kantor himself might be good, and yeah the Fist Relic is good, but that doesn't make for a good army. They at least functioned when they were under the Imperial Fists rules themselves.
Mandragola wrote: Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..
Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.
We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.
I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.
I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.
As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.
Black Templars getting the rewording on their charge makes them significantly stronger as a melee centric army. The Mortal wound 5+++ is just a bonus at that point and excellent for Psyker spam that STILL happens.
You gotta be kidding me. Close to half the armies in the game want to be no where near marines units and fall back and shoot is 100% useless here. +1 LD almost always 100% useless. I'd trade it for CF any day of the week vs literally any opponent just for the 6's generating additional hits on bolt weapons the +1 to hit would be an okay bonus and more useful than fallback and shoot in probably more games than the ability to fall back and shoot at -1 to hit. heck the 5+ overwatch for ironhands is better than the ability to fall back and shoot because things literally wont be able to charge you a lot of times. Try playing ultramarines sometime and lean something - playing ultras is like not having a chapter tactic in most of your games.
I like how you ignored how I suggested how to use the Fall Back + Shoot aggressively just so you could whine "Woe is me" once more.
Also you still said Vitrix get pelted by Bolters and die. So once again it's pretty damn hard to take what you say seriously. At all.
I ignored it because it reduces your total damage and is therefore a useless strategy. You do more damage in CC than you do falling back and shooting at -1. Plus what game are you playing where people don't just fall back after you charge them and blow you up with other parts of their army? These are unrealistic situations that basically never happen.
For vehicles they can fall back and hit at 5+ to hit because they are all heavies...fly keyword is way better for vehicles. Too bad ultras trait offers nothing of interest for a vehicle except the ability to trade ap for +1 to hit...which in most cases will result in the same amount of damage...AND the super doctrine DOESNT EVEN WORK IF YOU FALL BACK...because...that would be TOO POWERFUL or something...it is a laughing stock of balance. It's literally GW listening to cry babies while simultaneously thinking people will buy a new marines army and paint it black like the rolling stones - they wont BTW.
For infantry they can fight reasonably well in CC and do more damage not falling back. For elites like cents and agressors yeah the trait is okay if you somehow manage to get them into combat in the first place...Why someone wouldn't just shoot them to death is beyond me. These are the hardest units in the codex to use too...slow with unrealistic transport options.
I ignored it because it reduces your total damage and is therefore a useless strategy. You do more damage in CC than you do falling back and shooting at -1. Plus what game are you playing where people don't just fall back after you charge them and blow you up with other parts of their army? These are unrealistic situations that basically never happen.
You quite literally have no clue how to play a Marine army do you. Staying in with those amazeballs S:User AP0 D1 punches instead of using your delicious Calgar aura for 75% accuracy with all your goddamn guns, why didnt anyone else think of that.
They could have fifteen traits and it wouldnt matter. What matters is the quality of said traits, and in the case of Iron Hands only one is remotely relevant: the 6+++. Its also massively outclassed by what you can do with successor chapters, but hey please continue to be absolutely clueless. I'm getting my free entertainment for the day.
Removed - kindly use spoiler tags when quoting massive walls of text next time
Ultramarines not being useful for vehicles? Did you literally forget how to read? They got the most relevant part of Fly! BS5+ is still fine for not being tied up. On a Asscanback that's still 4 shots landing for a unit that would need to literally be surrounded to tie up.
Also it isn't a useless strategy because it ties up units without the same exact ability. Either the opponent needs to fall back so they can shoot the unit, or they don't and you fall back and still shoot, ergo the strategy worked either way. Just because you can't do anything with it honestly means nothing to to me because you only know how to sit still and shoot.
You might as well play Tau. Maybe you'll like them better.
Also who cares that you don't get the Super Doctrine when falling back? Iron Hands don't get to fall back and shoot at all with their non-Fly units. White Scars don't get any benefit until T3. Raven Guard have one that completely goes against the preferred weapon type with sniping.
I ignored it because it reduces your total damage and is therefore a useless strategy. You do more damage in CC than you do falling back and shooting at -1. Plus what game are you playing where people don't just fall back after you charge them and blow you up with other parts of their army? These are unrealistic situations that basically never happen.
You quite literally have no clue how to play a Marine army do you. Staying in with those amazeballs S:User AP0 D1 punches instead of using your delicious Calgar aura for 75% accuracy with all your goddamn guns, why didnt anyone else think of that.
They could have fifteen traits and it wouldnt matter. What matters is the quality of said traits, and in the case of Iron Hands only one is remotely relevant: the 6+++. Its also massively outclassed by what you can do with successor chapters, but hey please continue to be absolutely clueless. I'm getting my free entertainment for the day.
He is clueless. He literally said earlier that Victrix, which are 10 points per T4 2+ wound, die to Bolters too easily. What does that tell you?
Bolters are AP-1 or 2 typically....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters per point. I am correct ofc as usual.
I'd really like to put on a workshop for how to play 40k for you guys. t4 models with 3 wounds are not hard to remove with basically any weapon in the game with any amount of AP. The point was you shouldn't include the vitrix - you'd probably be better with an apoth because he can't be targeted. Though...he also still sucks.
Xenomancers wrote: Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.
9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save
6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save
Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.
Xenomancers wrote: Bolters are AP-1 or 2 typically....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters per point. I am correct ofc as usual.
I'd really like to put on a workshop for how to play 40k for you guys. t4 models with 3 wounds are not hard to remove with basically any weapon in the game with any amount of AP. The point was you shouldn't include the vitrix - you'd probably be better with an apoth because he can't be targeted. Though...he also still sucks.
Xenomancers wrote: Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.
9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save
6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save
Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.
Wowzers! You sure you're "correct ofc as usual" there, Xeno?
Xenomancers wrote: Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.
9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save
6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save
Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.
Wowzers! You sure you're "correct ofc as usual" there, Xeno?
But wait, Bolt Rifles can easily be AP-2!
Which drops an Intercessor to a 5+, and the Victrix to... 3+. Because they have a shield.
Xenomancers wrote: Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.
9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save
6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save
Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.
Intercessors are 17 points for 2 wounds and victrix are 30 points for 3 wounds. They die at about the same rate. To argue against this is purely argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Vitrix are not viable. That isn't even what I was saying though...I'm just going to remove your victrix with anti chaff than snipe your leader...You can't stop me from doing this. Therefore it is a garbage strategy.
Which drops an Intercessor to a 5+, and the Victrix to... 3+. Because they have a shield.
Not to mention basic bolters in tactical doctrine plinking off Victrix cover on a 2+ (because any competent player is going to look for that entrenching option). Or just flat out plinking off Victrix on that same 2+ if not fired by marines.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.
I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL
Smart players use their weapons intelligently not idiotically like you are suggesting.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.
I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL
Yeah, because the Honour Guard having cheap wounds for the HQ wasn't part of their point, huh?
See how ridiculous you sound? Is this really the hill you wish to die on?
Xenomancers wrote: Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.
9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save
6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save
Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.
Intercessors are 17 points for 2 wounds and victrix are 30 points for 3 wounds. They die at about the same rate. To argue against this is purely argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Vitrix are not viable. That isn't even what I was saying though...I'm just going to remove your victrix with anti chaff than snipe your leader...You can't stop me from doing this. Therefore it is a garbage strategy.
10 points per 9 shots
8.5 points per 6 shots
Those are, respectively, 1.11 and 1.42 points per shot. That's 1.275 times the effectiveness.
Drop them in cover, and gets worse.
Apply high AP, it gets worse.
Do 2 damage a shot, it gets a LOT worse.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.
I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL
Yeah, because the Honour Guard having cheap wounds for the HQ wasn't part of their point, huh?
See how ridiculous you sound? Is this really the hill you wish to die on?
You sound redic. You are the one suggesting a strategy that is countered ridiculously easily.
Plus the point is if the unit is to tough to crack then you just snipe the HQ's and he has to take mortal taking away the 3++. They are garbage because they can be targeted.
My redemptor dreads don't give a damn about these guys. Literally no army I play would have trouble removing them.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.
I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL
Smart players use their weapons intelligently not idiotically like you are suggesting.
Stalkers do two damage apiece genius. I know it requires functional cognitive capacity, but please actually know the rules for the units you're talking about.
That was obviously a typo. You are just sour and mean. I know stalkers do 2 damage lol.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.
I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL
Smart players use their weapons intelligently not idiotically like you are suggesting.
Stalkers do two damage apiece genius. I know it requires functional cognitive capacity, but please actually know the rules for the units you're talking about.
You also conveniently forgot about the 5+ FNP in the original example that you tried to gak on.
Xenomancers wrote: That was obviously a typo. You are just sour and mean. I know stalkers do 2 damage lol.
Given your blatant and excruciating ignorance, no it isnt obvious. You routinely get basic details of units, rules and actions wrong. If you want people to take you seriously, get your facts in order.
Which would make it even harder to kill the Victrix by forcing them to tank damage as a bodyguard as both FNPs would be applied to your ZOMG STALKER barrage.
Sterling191 wrote: Which would make it even harder to kill the Victrix by forcing them to tank damage as a bodyguard as both FNPs would be applied to your ZOMG STALKER barrage.
That is not true. You're only allowed one aftersave-so you can either take your 2+ to shift it the Victrix, or your 5+ FNP.
You cannot, unless they changed it in the latest FAQ, take both.
JNAProductions wrote: That is not true. You're only allowed one aftersave-so you can either take your 2+ to shift it the Victrix, or your 5+ FNP.
You cannot, unless they changed it in the latest FAQ, take both.
The bodyguard rule kicks in after wounds are lost on the target. The baseline FNP would apply, then the bodyguard roll, then the Chappy FNP on the bodyguard mortal.
JNAProductions wrote: That is not true. You're only allowed one aftersave-so you can either take your 2+ to shift it the Victrix, or your 5+ FNP.
You cannot, unless they changed it in the latest FAQ, take both.
The bodyguard rule kicks in after wounds are lost on the target. The baseline FNP would apply, then the bodyguard roll, then the Chappy FNP on the bodyguard mortal.
I'm pretty sure that an FAQ forbids you taking more than one Ignore Wounds roll, which FNP and the Bodyguard rule both are.
"Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore the damage suffered each time it loses a wound (e.g. Disgustingly Resilient, The Flesh is Weak and Tenacious Survivor). If a model has more than one such ability, you can only use one of those abilities each time the model loses a wound.’"
Emphasis mine. The Victrix bodyguard rule isnt on a per wound basis, its explicitly on a per-attack basis (as you only get one swing at that 2+ to invoke the Bodyguard ability regardless of how much damage is involved). The two stack.
"Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore the damage suffered each time it loses a wound (e.g. Disgustingly Resilient, The Flesh is Weak and Tenacious Survivor). If a model has more than one such ability, you can only use one of those abilities each time the model loses a wound.’"
Emphasis mine. The Victrix bodyguard rule isnt on a per wound basis, its explicitly on a per-attack basis. The two stack.
Interesting. I also note that it specifies that if the MODEL has more than one such ability-but the Victrix's bodyguard rule isn't an ability of the injured model, it's an ability of a DIFFERENT model.
JNAProductions wrote: Interesting. I also note that it specifies that if the MODEL has more than one such ability-but the Victrix's bodyguard rule isn't an ability of the injured model, it's an ability of a DIFFERENT model.
Precisely. Its similar to how Tau Shield Drones get their FNP after invoking Saviour Protocols.
The end result is that if you're trying to snipe out a character with a 5+++ protected by a bodyguard unit packing a 5+++ against mortals, there's a roughly 55% flat probability of ignoring any damage, irrespective of other defensive profiles.
In other words, you aint sniping gak in that scenario without massive firepower.
Xenomancers wrote: That was obviously a typo. You are just sour and mean. I know stalkers do 2 damage lol.
Given your blatant and excruciating ignorance, no it isnt obvious. You routinely get basic details of units, rules and actions wrong. If you want people to take you seriously, get your facts in order.
Which would make it even harder to kill the Victrix by forcing them to tank damage as a bodyguard as both FNPs would be applied to your ZOMG STALKER barrage.
Dude I bet you don't talk like this to people in real life. Stop being an internet warrior please. Be nice.
The Chaplain buff strategy does produce 5+++ to mortals on the honor guard unit so you can effectively get 2 FNP rolls if the character has a FNP.
However for the cost of the chaplain - your opponent could just include another unit of snipers.
I guess it's 9 eliminators and a 10 man stalker bolter that you are trying to defend against. This chaplin vitrix combo might bye you one turn if you could keep the victrix out of LOS from being picked off.
My personsal opinion. Drop the victrix and chaplain. Bye yourself 2 razorsbacks with TLHB and hide behind them.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.
I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL
Yeah, because the Honour Guard having cheap wounds for the HQ wasn't part of their point, huh?
See how ridiculous you sound? Is this really the hill you wish to die on?
You sound redic. You are the one suggesting a strategy that is countered ridiculously easily.
Plus the point is if the unit is to tough to crack then you just snipe the HQ's and he has to take mortal taking away the 3++. They are garbage because they can be targeted.
My redemptor dreads don't give a damn about these guys. Literally no army I play would have trouble removing them.
Well if something is legit that dangerous from the sniping, like Stalker Bolt Strat or Eliminators or Vindicare, then yeah I'll gladly take Mortal Wounds on a Guard. If it isn't dangerous, like Scouts or Ratlings, the HQ can probably tank. I'm not forced into Mortal Wounds.
Slayer are you honestly saying the redemptor isn't good? Or what are you saying...I have no idea.
What I'm saying is its going to be non sniper weapons killing the victrix. I think an apoth is probably a better investment than the victrix. It leaves them with a conundrum. Target the character you want to kill and risk him getting healed? Or go for the apoth first? Razorback or Rhino works a lot better IMO.
Well if something is legit that dangerous from the sniping, like Stalker Bolt Strat or Eliminators or Vindicare, then yeah I'll gladly take Mortal Wounds on a Guard. If it isn't dangerous, like Scouts or Ratlings, the HQ can probably tank. I'm not forced into Mortal Wounds.
Oh what's the wording on the bodyguard ability? Necron one at least isn't "may" or "can". Lychguard HAS to protect character if character takes wound.
Well if something is legit that dangerous from the sniping, like Stalker Bolt Strat or Eliminators or Vindicare, then yeah I'll gladly take Mortal Wounds on a Guard. If it isn't dangerous, like Scouts or Ratlings, the HQ can probably tank. I'm not forced into Mortal Wounds.
Oh what's the wording on the bodyguard ability? Necron one at least isn't "may" or "can". Lychguard HAS to protect character if character takes wound.
Whenever I see that Xenomancers has picked some new hill to die on, it means I have to ignore the forum for a few days and wait until everyone's done arguing in circles.
Whenever I see that Xenomancers has picked some new hill to die on, it means I have to ignore the forum for a few days and wait until everyone's done arguing in circles.
Probably because the hill he chose to die on was a really fething bad one.
I have seen custodes succumb to bolter fire on Winter SEO so no doubt about that.
Xenomancer i would suggest you use your energy on rebalancing 40k and posting the results in here. Lets do a fan based edition on this game ?
Maybe add some new factions / chapters as well. I already have a skaven faction in development.
I would hope you could start with space marines as i see them most interesting. And let me say, the 8th edition is the most interesting edition so far, the gameplay is easy and it introduces neat things like strategems. I was only vaguely interested in 40k before.
I will also jest you and say that you will make the game even more unbalanced.
I start with a suggestion, instead of tuning down the most powerful relics we take 2-3 most powerful relics in each chapter and put them under restriction that they can be only taken once for each army with a specified strategem that costs 2 or 3 CP. If there are not enough strong relics, we shall invent new ones. Lets use the existing mechanisms and not invent new ones, but invent new content instead. I shall also express my opinion that most of the units, relics and so are fine as they are but there are probably several either under or overwhelming ones in the current setup (which is ever changing).
Another question for those of you with codexes. My Raven Guard book is still on order. :(
I'm looking to take the Raptors Successor chapter of the Raven Guard. What will taking the Raven Guard chapter tactic allow me to use? Strategiems, warlord traits, relics? Raven Guard super-sniper doctrine? I know I lose the special characters for Raven Guard, but its not clear what else.
Do I lose everything if I don't take Inheritors of the Primarch?
bmsattler wrote: Another question for those of you with codexes. My Raven Guard book is still on order. :(
I'm looking to take the Raptors Successor chapter of the Raven Guard. What will taking the Raven Guard chapter tactic allow me to use? Strategiems, warlord traits, relics? Raven Guard super-sniper doctrine? I know I lose the special characters for Raven Guard, but its not clear what else.
Do I lose everything if I don't take Inheritors of the Primarch?
Nope, you can go custom as long as they're listed a Successor. So your best bet is Stealthy and the extra 3" on range weapons.
bmsattler wrote: Another question for those of you with codexes. My Raven Guard book is still on order. :(
I'm looking to take the Raptors Successor chapter of the Raven Guard. What will taking the Raven Guard chapter tactic allow me to use? Strategiems, warlord traits, relics? Raven Guard super-sniper doctrine? I know I lose the special characters for Raven Guard, but its not clear what else.
Do I lose everything if I don't take Inheritors of the Primarch?
As a successor you lose access to special characters and half the relics. You can take one of the RG only relics with a 1 CP strat as a successor. That is it.
bmsattler wrote: Another question for those of you with codexes. My Raven Guard book is still on order. :(
I'm looking to take the Raptors Successor chapter of the Raven Guard. What will taking the Raven Guard chapter tactic allow me to use? Strategiems, warlord traits, relics? Raven Guard super-sniper doctrine? I know I lose the special characters for Raven Guard, but its not clear what else.
Do I lose everything if I don't take Inheritors of the Primarch?
As a successor you lose access to special characters and half the relics. You can take one of the RG only relics with a 1 CP strat as a successor. That is it.
Which is overall worth it if you're not going Shrike. Lias is still a fantastic option, having 3 Drop Pods basically baked into his cost. Then you can go, as I've been saying like a record on repeat, Stealthy + Marksman
Rather than debate the survivability-per-point of the Victrix Guard, I'm going to say this: as an Ultramarine player, I have not yet found space for them when making a competitive list. I have to spend so many points on characters now to fuel my detachment/CP/buff needs that every extra point needs to go to stuff that can reach out and touch the enemy. I play most often using NOVA missions, so the L's and 1st floor ruins blocking LOS means that if I need to hide my characters, I have ways of doing it that don't involve spending more points. I haven't played against Raven Guard yet, so that may change my perspective, but against most armies I can't see it being a worthwhile investment. If the enemy is targeting your Ultramarine characters and you aren't playing against Eliminators or Stalker-heavy Imperial Fists, something has already gone horribly wrong. And regardless of how survivable they are, small bodyguard units are great targets to pick up points with secondaries.
If Victrix were available to my White Scars successors I'd use them in every list.
If you're actually super aggressive with your Ultramarines instead of gun lining like Iron Hands and Imperial Fists you might get more value out of them.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If Victrix were available to my White Scars successors I'd use them in every list.
If you're actually super aggressive with your Ultramarines instead of gun lining like Iron Hands and Imperial Fists you might get more value out of them.
Victrix Guard in a White Scars successor list are a different animal. Ultramarines aren't meant to play like White Scars, Iron Hands or Imperial Fists. They are about mobile, aggressive shooting-based deathballs that make charging them essentially pointless through massive Overwatch, decent counterpunch and the ability to fall back and shoot. I want to spend my points on units like Aggressors or bolt rifle Intercessors that receive maximum benefit from Scions of Guilliman and can still hang in melee if they need to.
ewar wrote: Not sure if this is better in YMDC or not, but figured some here might know the answer.
Is there a way to get Guilliman into a SM army (that isn't a true blue UM) and keep the super doctrine?
Seems to really limit him if using him costs me my super doctrine, even as UM successor.
Honestly, Guilliman might not be worth it anymore in a pure UM list. The change to his aura and his warlord trait mean that taking him over Calgar+Lieutenant really hurts an army's CP pool, which is much more important now with all the great stratagems available. Pointswise, I think he's probably worth the 80 points over Calgar+Lieutenant if you need the extra beatstick, but the opportunity cost is just so high. Calgar can also utilize a stratagem for +3" aura range if necessary, which Guilliman lacks the keywords for.
Warnings have been issued, some cleaning has been done, I would kindly ask all participants to stick to the topic and to remain polite to one another at all times.
ewar wrote: Not sure if this is better in YMDC or not, but figured some here might know the answer.
Is there a way to get Guilliman into a SM army (that isn't a true blue UM) and keep the super doctrine?
Seems to really limit him if using him costs me my super doctrine, even as UM successor.
Honestly, Guilliman might not be worth it anymore in a pure UM list. The change to his aura and his warlord trait mean that taking him over Calgar+Lieutenant really hurts an army's CP pool, which is much more important now with all the great stratagems available. Pointswise, I think he's probably worth the 80 points over Calgar+Lieutenant if you need the extra beatstick, but the opportunity cost is just so high. Calgar can also utilize a stratagem for +3" aura range if necessary, which Guilliman lacks the keywords for.
Gman I think is mainly a fighter now. Sure he buffs your army but he really is a killer and you have to build your list to support that.. You can buff him up to 10 attacks with spells and relics and he can fight again. 20 attacks at str9 ap-4 flat 3 doing d3 mortals on 6+ if you use the attacks twice stratagem. Plus the 3+ attack bonus you can give him. both relics and MOH. I did the math and that will nearly kill 2 knights in 1 turn. Basically will kill any unit you put him into in that situation. Putting 2 knights that close together though would be a huge tactical error. Even fighting twice with 14 attacks will likely kill anything you come up against. Really no clue what to build around him though. He works pretty well with aggressors due to the +1 to advance and charge rolls but then what do you do against gunlines like tau and IG? Your just gonna get blown off the table before you get close...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.
For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.
For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.
Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)
So a question I've been mulling over is as follows:
I've been playing black painted marines for over 14 years (since I was 12), and own a bunch of other armies too. So I'm not bandwagoning on to the ironhands stuff. However, prior to the supplement release, I already owned 2 repulsor executioners and a leviathan. I play in a friendly group where people try to optimize their lists as much as possible, but its never cutting edge tournament stuff. My marines had been having a hard time winning for most of 8th. When I wanted to actually win I usually played one of my other armies. So when the iron hands wambo combo dropped, I tried it out for a couple games, did the bubble with the repulsors and leviathan and did very well, but it wasn't fun for anyone. However, I like having the option to consistently do well with marines. My question is how do I leverage the new rules to build a strong list (potentially as ironhands, but ultra is cool too), without making it a feels bad experience? I've always skewed towards running lot of vehicle with marines, even when it wasn't good, and iron hands are amazing for that, but I'm having a hard time building a well optimized force with them that isn't too strong for my group.
Dont play dreadnoughts, or when you do, dont use the stratagem to make them characters, or the one with half damage, dont give them warlord traits. Play mediocre vehicles like whirlwinds, predators, land speeders, land raiders. Dont play with the iron father. Dont use the iron stone.
rooster92 wrote: So a question I've been mulling over is as follows:
I've been playing black painted marines for over 14 years (since I was 12), and own a bunch of other armies too. So I'm not bandwagoning on to the ironhands stuff. However, prior to the supplement release, I already owned 2 repulsor executioners and a leviathan. I play in a friendly group where people try to optimize their lists as much as possible, but its never cutting edge tournament stuff. My marines had been having a hard time winning for most of 8th. When I wanted to actually win I usually played one of my other armies. So when the iron hands wambo combo dropped, I tried it out for a couple games, did the bubble with the repulsors and leviathan and did very well, but it wasn't fun for anyone. However, I like having the option to consistently do well with marines. My question is how do I leverage the new rules to build a strong list (potentially as ironhands, but ultra is cool too), without making it a feels bad experience? I've always skewed towards running lot of vehicle with marines, even when it wasn't good, and iron hands are amazing for that, but I'm having a hard time building a well optimized force with them that isn't too strong for my group.
Don't play a parking lot.
Leverage the fact that Iron Hands are able to provide a mobile firebase and take their buffs with them. Build a rugged, durable army that can actually play to the mission - Deep strike in with Devestator squads in Drop Pods, for example, or take Razorbacks holding troops that can stay mobile and still lay down great dps. If you do run a parking lot, make it a small chunk of your army - The steel core that holds backfield objectives and lays down fire support while the rest of your army handles mobility and objective scoring.
I do want to be able to use my shiny semi new repulsor executioners (put time and money in em). If I used the pair of them and a lascannon contemptor, bubbled up with chapter master and a regular techmarine and librarian (no iron father or ironstone) as my fire base, and then built the rest of list with plenty of infantry and more aggressive elements (maybe some drop in inceptors, and aircraft), would that seem still sporting but still strong you think?
Question: could the iron hand vehicle bubble work in combination with stormravens? Nothing that prevents them from hovering and getting repaired, right?
I do want to be able to use my shiny semi new repulsor executioners (put time and money in em). If I used the pair of them and a lascannon contemptor, bubbled up with chapter master and a regular techmarine and librarian (no iron father or ironstone) as my fire base, and then built the rest of list with plenty of infantry and more aggressive elements (maybe some drop in inceptors, and aircraft), would that seem still sporting but still strong you think?
Its toned down, but still strong.
shogun wrote:Question: could the iron hand vehicle bubble work in combination with stormravens? Nothing that prevents them from hovering and getting repaired, right?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.
For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.
Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)
Only a 5+ on enemy stratagem, which means that on many turns you will not get your CP back. There will be games where spending a CP on it will not even be a good idea.
You don't have a regen on your stratagems without grand strategist, especially one that goes on CP spent rather than on stratagem usage.
rooster92 wrote: So a question I've been mulling over is as follows:
I've been playing black painted marines for over 14 years (since I was 12), and own a bunch of other armies too. So I'm not bandwagoning on to the ironhands stuff. However, prior to the supplement release, I already owned 2 repulsor executioners and a leviathan. I play in a friendly group where people try to optimize their lists as much as possible, but its never cutting edge tournament stuff. My marines had been having a hard time winning for most of 8th. When I wanted to actually win I usually played one of my other armies. So when the iron hands wambo combo dropped, I tried it out for a couple games, did the bubble with the repulsors and leviathan and did very well, but it wasn't fun for anyone. However, I like having the option to consistently do well with marines. My question is how do I leverage the new rules to build a strong list (potentially as ironhands, but ultra is cool too), without making it a feels bad experience? I've always skewed towards running lot of vehicle with marines, even when it wasn't good, and iron hands are amazing for that, but I'm having a hard time building a well optimized force with them that isn't too strong for my group.
I like to think of myself as a relatively hardcore tournament player, so here’s my advice on how to integrate into normal society.
Firstly, context matters. Talk to your opponents before the game about the kind of game you want. If you both want to bring your best possible lists and play ITC missions, go for it. If one of you wants to play a casual list then do that. Ultimately it’s not wrong to use a badass tournament list. What’s wrong is to inflict it on people who don’t want that kind of game.
Second, consider buying yourself a ticket to a tournament. I like them. You might, or might not, so give it a try. It’s fun to see how your theoretically good army does against people other than your usual opponents.
Third, get another repulsor executioner. I think they’re probably better in an IH list than the immortal leviathan - which I don't think is as dangerous. Then maybe some planes, TFCs and other ways to root out people who hide from your death bubble.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.
For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.
Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)
Only a 5+ on enemy stratagem, which means that on many turns you will not get your CP back. There will be games where spending a CP on it will not even be a good idea.
You don't have a regen on your stratagems without grand strategist, especially one that goes on CP spent rather than on stratagem usage.
Well, per 3 CP you're likely going to get one refunded. GMan gives you three off the bat being the Warlord, and the Loyal 32 is 5. Add whatever from the Knights (3 I think), and you get the Battleforged bonus which makes up for the CP to give Knights some toys.
It's tight for sure but that should be able to get you through a few turns, which is all that should be necessary for a Knight list. Any longer than that and things probably went bad.
shogun wrote: Question: could the iron hand vehicle bubble work in combination with stormravens? Nothing that prevents them from hovering and getting repaired, right?
Yes, but I don't see why you would do that since Stormravens aren't all that durable without their -1 to hit.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.
For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.
Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)
Yes 6" intervention. Just speaking about CP value. You are going to load your knights with relics and WL traits. Gotta take Ion bluwark and endless furry at least That cost 0 if you don't make Gman your warlord. Costs 2 if you do. Take another relic it cost 5 CP instead of 1. Because your free relic has to come from your warlord faction.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.
For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.
Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)
Only a 5+ on enemy stratagem, which means that on many turns you will not get your CP back. There will be games where spending a CP on it will not even be a good idea.
You don't have a regen on your stratagems without grand strategist, especially one that goes on CP spent rather than on stratagem usage.
Well, per 3 CP you're likely going to get one refunded. GMan gives you three off the bat being the Warlord, and the Loyal 32 is 5. Add whatever from the Knights (3 I think), and you get the Battleforged bonus which makes up for the CP to give Knights some toys.
It's tight for sure but that should be able to get you through a few turns, which is all that should be necessary for a Knight list. Any longer than that and things probably went bad.
Knight lance with 3 knights is 6 CP.
Gman, loyal 32, and Knight lance starts with a hefty 17 CP.
shogun wrote: Question: could the iron hand vehicle bubble work in combination with stormravens? Nothing that prevents them from hovering and getting repaired, right?
Yes, but I don't see why you would do that since Stormravens aren't all that durable without their -1 to hit.
You could deploy way back and fly towards the iron hand parking lot bubble. You would still keep -1 to hit and get 5+ inv save and -1 damage. Airborne doesn't prevent him from getting bubble bonuses, right?
Could even give it +1 save with the iron hand psyker. Next turn hover down and repair the sucker. It would function as a gunboat and at any time it could move forward and take the field, deploy stuff whatever.
I'm playing in a 2000pts doubles tournament on Dec 1st, and my team mate is bringing all of the anti tank. Restrictions include:
No LoW Single detatchment only
Rule of 3 in effect
Detatchment CP is for your individual army only
Battleforged CP is split between both players
+1 CP for a battle ready painted force
Chapter Approved 2018 missions
One warlord from the team to be designated Force Commander for the "slay the warlord" objective
So, its up to me to bring the anti infantry, and I've decided to go full Primaris. I've decided against a known chapter and made my own dudes with Rapid Assault and Stoic. Firstly, every gun in my list is Assault, so being mobile and during at ful BS is nice. And being able to ignore 1 and 2's to wound regardless of modifiers makes them harder to shift.
For relics I've given my Lieutenant an invulnerable save as it helps in survivability in case of a lucky lascannon hit etc. And I've used 1CP to give him a 6+++ too.
Agressors with flamestorm gauntlets are a must as the tournament will include at least 4-5 players who run plaguebarer mobs so the auto hits will be vital (and powerfistshelp in the anti tank role if needed)
Assault bolters offer incredible Dakka and also will allow me to keep moving.
Lastly, assault bolter inceptors unleash rediculous a mounts of shots, and they eat light vehicles and infantry blobs for breakfast. Also, I've found them excellent character assassins due to the small footprint catching people out.
Rapid assault is ok, but stalwart isnt a good choice. A 1 to wound always fails, and 2s would require a S8/10 weapon to hit your dudes with T4/5. Those weapons are anti armor and will hit your partners vehicles. If you use bolter fusillades you get to re-roll 1s for all bolt weapons, and you have a lot of those. That includes your inceptors, which will deepstrike, i think. You wouldnt need a captain for the re-rolls of 1s, and could replace him with a librarian, for example. And dont use flamestorm gauntlets, flamers suck. Use boltstorm instead, which may count as a bolt weapon for bolter fusillades, not sure. I dont have the SM codex.
So, firstly, which Chapter are you a Successor of? That will determine which "super doctrine" you get the benefit of. Certainly you'll want to be either Raven Guard or Ultramarines, because of their synergies with Tactical Doctrine.
Stalwart is indeed pretty terrible. I would suggest either Whirlwind of Rage or Hungry for Battle - your list clearly wants to get right up in the face of your enemy. Might as well make them a little better at fighting, or getting in there. I quite like Hungry for Battle with deepstriking elements, for the 8" charge.
Another option would be Long-Range Marksmen. The increased range on flamers is enormous.
Played a practice tournament today with Iron Hands, learned some useful things. He had three knights (A castellan, a valiant, and a crusader) and I had a parking lot and a drop pod.
Firstly, I was sloppy with my drop pod placement and he was able to charge it with his knight, making it impossible for me to shoot at it for a turn. Note to self: Be careful with drop pod placement.
I also screwed up in deployment, forgetting that I'd changed my ironstone from my librarian to my techmarine. I ended up rolling ridiculously well on my saves, though, which cancelled out the extra damage I took from the screwup.
All in all:
Any assaulting units that can close and get into cqc are a huge problem. I ended up losing the game, in part because of sloppy play, but in part because I got tied up and didn't have a recourse. Spreading out would have been a better call for me.
Chaplains are awesome if you can get the +1 to wound against a valuable target.
Feirros's most useful ability is his three wound healing. The 5+ invuln helped a little, and the Signum Array came up a couple times, but that 6 wounds per turn with a CP ended up being invaluable.
The "Recover a CP on a 5+" relic is going to be an auto-take. No surprises there.
Having the parking lot able to move around a bit is useful, but I should have taken better advantage of it. Specifically, I deployed forward because I wanted to be in range, but then didn't get first turn and he was able to close on me faster than I could deal with. Deploying back and then moving forward would have payed off a lot better.
Scouts didn't really pay off, but that's too be expected with this particular matchup. I want to play with them a couple more times to see if they have a use against different armies.
My tactical marines, on the other hand, *were* pretty useful. 85pts a squad, and they provided handy screens and were able to pop off some wounds here and there. (The biggest benefit, of course, was just the CPs they brought me.)
I had a thunderfire cannon, but used it poorly. I didn't think shutting down the movement on the knights was all that important. *Boy* was I wrong.
All in all, it was a very good learning experience. I think the army is strong, but it's not unbeatable. I need to work on my maneuvering and deployment to get the most out of IH.
So now that we lose so much for not being pure marines,(though I prefer that way already) are there any super heavy tanks that are worth using (and buying)? I am looking at the Falchion and Astreaus right now, but not sure if they are competitive in my local meta where knights and baneblades are becoming more prevalent.
We have one player who plays pure knights, two with a baneblade, and one with a spartan, a levi, and a sicarian. (the last three aren't supeheavy I know, but they are IH, at least until/unless Fists are better.) A few others bring knights sometimes, and one who will be getting Mortarion.
