I don't think they "suck monkeyballs", but I'm not sure why people are so excited over bad AA units (BS3 S7, Heavy 3 whoopedy-do), overpriced jump flamers, and entire entries that can be hard countered by common opponents. They do add options as allies that are really nice though, especially for CSM wanting cheap troops that are not terrible cultists.

The Tzeentch chariot has potential though (3 Heldrakes plus another torrent flamer + Brand is just too hilarious to pass up), and daemonettes look pretty cool. Get a HQ with the portal for potentially free troops and you're set.

 blood reaper wrote:
Why would you ever take the sword? Yes master crafted, but otherwise it's really just 25 points more for a re-roll at base strength.

Only if you previously modeled the soulgrinder with the sword, thinking it was very cool to have one soul grinder with a claw and the other a sword....

Yea....

Seemed like a good idea at the time...

TzeentchNet wrote:
The Tzeentch chariot has potential though (3 Heldrakes plus another torrent flamer + Brand is just too hilarious to pass up), and daemonettes look pretty cool. Get a HQ with the portal for potentially free troops and you're set.

You are thinking to short sighted.

3 helldrakes
4 heralds as HQ choices (taking one HQ slot) Each on a flaming chariot.
1 flame chariot

That's 8 torrent STR 5/6 AP3 torrent flamers.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Why would you ever take the sword? Yes master crafted, but otherwise it's really just 25 points more for a re-roll at base strength.

Only if you previously modeled the soulgrinder with the sword, thinking it was very cool to have one soul grinder with a claw and the other a sword....

Yea....

Seemed like a good idea at the time...

An extra S10 AP2 swing isn't trivial. Is it worth 25 points? I dunno.

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.

Absolutely.

Ill be happy to buy your daemons for 20% of retail.

 labmouse42 wrote:
You are thinking to short sighted.

3 helldrakes
4 heralds as HQ choices (taking one HQ slot) Each on a flaming chariot.
1 flame chariot

That's 8 torrent STR 5/6 AP3 torrent flamers.

What, no Soul Grinders with their torrent weapon?

skarsol wrote:
An extra S10 AP2 swing isn't trivial. Is it worth 25 points? I dunno.

I also acknowlege that there are some targets that AP3, STR 6, master crafted is better. MEQ come to mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skarsol wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
You are thinking to short sighted.

3 helldrakes
4 heralds as HQ choices (taking one HQ slot) Each on a flaming chariot.
1 flame chariot

That's 8 torrent STR 5/6 AP3 torrent flamers.

What, no Soul Grinders with their torrent weapon?

Alas they compete with that final flame chariot. I guess 7 AP3 torrent is enough, right?

You are thinking to short sighted.

3 helldrakes
4 heralds as HQ choices (taking one HQ slot) Each on a flaming chariot.
1 flame chariot

That's 8 torrent STR 5/6 AP3 torrent flamers.

Don't tempt me, that's expensive But lordy would it be hilarious.

 JGrand wrote:
Troops are cheaper and better, but they were complete crap before, which is why you commonly saw 3x5 Plaguebearers as troops. While it does seem like there is increased troop utility, they are all one dimensional. Lack of grenades has always hurt Daemons as well.

Yea, its wacked. When rebooting the chaos daemon codex, they said "Lets change them from having the worst troops in the game to some of the best troops in the game"

Seriously. PlagueBearers are the best deck chairs in the game.

So, judging by the Fantasy rumors, it looks like Ward succeeded again at royally screwing up the army...

Except this time, instead of everything being outright 'uber, he's one-up'ed it by making things either 'stupidly good' or 'stupidly god-awful bad'.
Oh well, I guess that means there's options this time 'round, right?!

TzeentchNet wrote:
Don't tempt me, that's expensive But lordy would it be hilarious.

I'm worried that the AV 10 chariots would be to fragile. Part of what makes helldrakes work is that they are extremely durable. The flamer chariots die when you look at them.

On the plus side, they can shoot 3 heavy blasts at STR 9 in addition to their torrent. Oh, and the herald on them can also fire his blast
(assuming that you don't lose the pink and blue fires by adding a herald, I might be vastly wrong)

Edit : The herald replaces the exaulted flamer. The exaulted flamer is the one with the red and pink fire. Oh well, it was a good thought....

 labmouse42 wrote:

 JGrand wrote:
Troops are cheaper and better, but they were complete crap before, which is why you commonly saw 3x5 Plaguebearers as troops. While it does seem like there is increased troop utility, they are all one dimensional. Lack of grenades has always hurt Daemons as well.

Yea, its wacked. When rebooting the chaos daemon codex, they said "Lets change them from having the worst troops in the game to some of the best troops in the game"

Seriously. PlagueBearers are the best deck chairs in the game.

I am actually quite pissed at my PBs loosing 1 Toughness, 1 Initiative and FNP. I know they went down in price to 9 points and gained shrouded, but to me it takes the flavor out of them. I would not mind paying 11 points for them if they had just lost FNP or the stat change, but loosing both sees like a slap into the face of every Nurgle player. The FNP I can at least get back by using an expensive model that can be sniped with the prevalence of artillery, but that does not really fix the loss of it.

Mohoc wrote:

I am actually quite pissed at my PBs loosing 1 Toughness, 1 Initiative and FNP. I know they went down in price to 9 points and gained shrouded, but to me it takes the flavor out of them. I would not mind paying 11 points for them if they had just lost FNP or the stat change, but loosing both sees like a slap into the face of every Nurgle player. The FNP I can at least get back by using an expensive model that can be sniped with the prevalence of artillery, but that does not really fix the loss of it.

New design paradigm, it seems. "If it's scoring, it's also worse and cheaper, so buy extra!" It's the case with the CD troops and all CSM potential scoring units. DA seems to be the exception, but their coolest scoring stuff is still a bit too pricey to truly spam, so it better be strong.

Mohoc wrote:
I am actually quite pissed at my PBs loosing 1 Toughness, 1 Initiative and FNP. I know they went down in price to 9 points and gained shrouded, but to me it takes the flavor out of them. I would not mind paying 11 points for them if they had just lost FNP or the stat change, but loosing both sees like a slap into the face of every Nurgle player. The FNP I can at least get back by using an expensive model that can be sniped with the prevalence of artillery, but that does not really fix the loss of it.

It sounds worse at first, but plague bearers are actually much better at being deck chairs than they were before.

First you need to understand a concept called Resilience-Per-Point (RPP). Simply put, a plague marine is significantly better at resisting a bolter shot than an ork -- but the ork is much cheaper. What is the breaking point at when the ork is a better unit.

Using the RPP values, lets see what a bolter did to the old PB.
The old plague bearer had a RPP to MEQ bolter fire of a 67.49. That's actually very respectable and on the same level as grey hunters
The new plague bearers have an RPP value of 199.98 to that same MEQ bolter fire! That's right! They are now three times as Resilience-Per-Point as they were. That's a staggering value.

If your sad that your plague bearers are not out killing everything that moved. Well, that's not changed since the last codex. If you want to have an all nurgle army bring beasts and flies to do your killing. Plauge bearers are about holding objectives in your table half. (well, since you can also deep strike them....)

If having your deck chair units RPP values jump threefold is slap in the face, I would hate to see what getting the snot beat out of you would be.

Also, 2+ (15/18) cover in ruins, 3+ (12/18) in forests, normal terrain is a lot more survivable than 5++/5+ FNP (10/18) in most instances.

How does that compare in melee though where cover no longer matters?

Could we possibly have all the rumours put in the OP please?

It makes it far easier than going through several pages to get to the good stuff.

skarsol wrote:
How does that compare in melee though where cover no longer matters?

Poorly.

Thanks Labmouse for explaining better than I could of. People will still complain though. I'll let them play with their old rules against me if they want to..

pretre wrote:Also, 2+ (15/18) cover in ruins, 3+ (12/18) in forests, normal terrain is a lot more survivable than 5++/5+ FNP (10/18) in most instances.

They can also now go to ground, getting a 2+ in forests.

skarsol wrote:How does that compare in melee though where cover no longer matters?

Your missing the point of deck chair units.
Were playing in a game where 5/6 of the missions are objective/relic based. In 3/5 of those, you have multiple objectives. This means 50% of the time, your going to be dealing with multiple objectives. 66.66% of the time, your dealing with some objectives. If you play in tourneys, often troops are even more important for grabbing quarters in addition to objectives.

You don't want to put your heavy hitter units on objectives close to your board side. A unit of paladins sitting on an objective near your board edge is a complete waste. You have a ton of points that's literally doing nothing. Instead you want to put a cheap unit that can resist shooting attacks. This is called a 'deck-chair' unit. This lets you focus your heavy hitters where they need to be.

Now, can someone deep strike their 5 TH/SS in the middle of your army and attack your deck chairs? Yes, and its been done before. Usually when its done, you turn your horror/daemonette/KoS/Bloodthirster around and turn the MEQ into a pile of fine mist. The only real deck-chair killer Ive seen thats decent are 4 flamers drop podding in. Thats not as big of a threat to the plague bearers as they are T4 and have a 5++ save.

That's what I mean by 'deck-chair' unit. The fact that plague bearers are now argueably the best one in the game is remarkable.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
I am actually quite pissed at my PBs loosing 1 Toughness, 1 Initiative and FNP. I know they went down in price to 9 points and gained shrouded, but to me it takes the flavor out of them. I would not mind paying 11 points for them if they had just lost FNP or the stat change, but loosing both sees like a slap into the face of every Nurgle player. The FNP I can at least get back by using an expensive model that can be sniped with the prevalence of artillery, but that does not really fix the loss of it.

It sounds worse at first, but plague bearers are actually much better at being deck chairs than they were before.

First you need to understand a concept called Resilience-Per-Point (RPP). Simply put, a plague marine is significantly better at resisting a bolter shot than an ork -- but the ork is much cheaper. What is the breaking point at when the ork is a better unit.

Using the RPP values, lets see what a bolter did to the old PB.
The old plague bearer had a RPP to MEQ bolter fire of a 67.49. That's actually very respectable and on the same level as grey hunters
The new plague bearers have an RPP value of 199.98 to that same MEQ bolter fire! That's right! They are now three times as Resilience-Per-Point as they were. That's a staggering value.

If your sad that your plague bearers are not out killing everything that moved. Well, that's not changed since the last codex. If you want to have an all nurgle army bring beasts and flies to do your killing. Plauge bearers are about holding objectives in your table half. (well, since you can also deep strike them....)

If having your deck chair units RPP values jump threefold is slap in the face, I would hate to see what getting the snot beat out of you would be.

That is only true if the plague bearer is in 4+ cover. Any other time Plaguebearers fare far worse. Not only that, you have to take into account other issues such as Slow and Purposeful preventing you from running, making Deep Striking Plaguebearers suicidal unless you deepstrike straight into ruins. They also got significantly worse in combat. Before I could get assault and defensive grenades thru Heralds, now I just get offensive grenades on a unit that now always swings last anyways. I no longer have FNP, and almost everything out there wounds me suddenly on a 4+ so my survivability went out the window in that regard. But yes, my Plaguebearers hiding in a ruin got more survivable against everything that is not a flame template or faster than an Ork in close combat.

There are people who enjoy running mono-lists. Nurgle plaguebearers was their melee, fighting option.

 Swara wrote:
Thanks Labmouse for explaining better than I could of. People will still complain though. I'll let them play with their old rules against me if they want to..

LOL, no doubt. "My crappy troop choices have worked for me for the past 5 years, and I don't wanna change! I'll keep the crappy troops and the crappy screamers/flamers!"
(crappy screamers/flamers in comparison to the OP ones anyway)

I'm serious when I say Ill offer people 20% of retail for their daemons. If they really think their army is over and want to sell out, Ill be happy to take the models.

Mohoc wrote:
That is only true if the plague bearer is in 4+ cover. Any other time Plaguebearers fare far worse. Not only that, you have to take into account other issues such as Slow and Purposeful preventing you from running, making Deep Striking Plaguebearers suicidal unless you deepstrike straight into ruins. t.

Any area cover works.

5+ Base Area Cover Save
3+ Shrouded
2+ Going to Ground

If you have no area terrain, then you have other issues with your FLGS

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There are people who enjoy running mono-lists. Nurgle plaguebearers was their melee, fighting option.

I think they were people that liked abusing the 'tally lists'.
As expected, those are gone. Come on guys. That's like a DE expecting the beast pack of cheese will live past the next book. It isn't going to happen. GW has been fixing horribly broken things lately (to varying degrees of success) We all knew the tally was on the chopping block.
60 plague bearers without epi could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag in the last edition.
Now if you want to go mono-nurgle you have options. Flies, Beasts, GUO, Daemon Princes, Soul Grinders, etc...


Dont get me wrong guys. Im pissed about some things. My nicely painted fateweaver looks to be garbage now. My bloodcrushers will only see the light of day as heralds of Khorne. Skulltaker should now be called 'Shelf-taker" because the only thing he will be taking up now is shelf space. I also realize what has changed in the codex. Troops have gone form the worst choice to one of the best.

Best use for plaguebearers I can think of.

Aegis defence line + shrouded = 2+ cover. Take a herald of Nurgle to use his BS5 to man either the quadgun or the lascannon and bam. One objective is almost sure to be yours as long as you intercept any close combat units heading that direction.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Swara wrote:
Thanks Labmouse for explaining better than I could of. People will still complain though. I'll let them play with their old rules against me if they want to..

LOL, no doubt. "My crappy troop choices have worked for me for the past 5 years, and I don't wanna change! I'll keep the crappy troops and the crappy screamers/flamers!"
(crappy screamers/flamers in comparison to the OP ones anyway)

I'm serious when I say Ill offer people 20% of retail for their daemons. If they really think their army is over and want to sell out, Ill be happy to take the models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mohoc wrote:
That is only true if the plague bearer is in 4+ cover. Any other time Plaguebearers fare far worse. Not only that, you have to take into account other issues such as Slow and Purposeful preventing you from running, making Deep Striking Plaguebearers suicidal unless you deepstrike straight into ruins. t.

Any area cover works.

5+ Base Area Cover Save
3+ Shrouded
2+ Going to Ground

If you have no area terrain, then you have other issues with your FLGS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There are people who enjoy running mono-lists. Nurgle plaguebearers was their melee, fighting option.

I think they were people that liked abusing the 'tally lists'.
As expected, those are gone. Come on guys. That's like a DE expecting the beast pack of cheese will live past the next book. It isn't going to happen. GW has been fixing horribly broken things lately (to varying degrees of success)
60 plague bearers without epi could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag in the last edition. I know, I ran 20 of them. They were deckchairs.

Now if you want to go mono-nurgle you have options. Flies, Beasts, GUO, Daemon Princes, Soul Grinders, etc...

Tell you what. I will still give my 120 Plaguebearers a lease on life. We will see how they play out with the new codex. Time to stop being negative about one unit when I like everything else I have seen so far.

100 plague bearers is 900 points of t4 shrouded goodness. The smelly tide approaches...

Mohoc wrote:
Tell you what. I will still give my 120 Plaguebearers a lease on life. We will see how they play out with the new codex. Time to stop being negative about one unit when I like everything else I have seen so far.

Look at it this way. Now you can field all 120 at once if you want, and still have plenty of points for HQ & support elements, all in a normal-sized list.

 xole wrote:
100 plague bearers is 900 points of t4 shrouded goodness. The smelly tide approaches...

You know what happens when you ignite methane, right?

 Janthkin wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
Tell you what. I will still give my 120 Plaguebearers a lease on life. We will see how they play out with the new codex. Time to stop being negative about one unit when I like everything else I have seen so far.

Look at it this way. Now you can field all 120 at once if you want, and still have plenty of points for HQ & support elements, all in a normal-sized list.

I know , especially considering that the standard game at my FLGS is 2K

Anyone have an idea how big the chariots are? I'm trying to guess at how hard it's going to be to hide them from enemy shooting so they don't explode from mean looks.

Mohoc wrote:
Tell you what. I will still give my 120 Plaguebearers a lease on life. We will see how they play out with the new codex. Time to stop being negative about one unit when I like everything else I have seen so far.

120 is quite a bit!
If your using them as your main punch, you will need 4 heralds to help boost the damage output -- their biggest weakness.

You also want to use some beasts as elites and flies as fast attack. Your going to need something that can actually deliver a blow. That will also keep your theme going.
I would bring 80 plague bearers, with one herald in each squad. Start with that and see how it works. Oh, and a palequin for each herald. Those are pretty good.
Remember, heralds are ICs and LoS on a 2+. This means if your not ID'ed your not going to be hurt badly by barrage weapons. Manticores will mess up your day, but hey -- every list has bad matchups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 newbis wrote:
Anyone have an idea how big the chariots are? I'm trying to guess at how hard it's going to be to hide them from enemy shooting so they don't explode from mean looks.

I would guess they are the same size as the slaanesh chariots give or take.

Your probably not going to be hiding them easily. On the plus side they are AV 12.

 BryllCream wrote:

 xole wrote:
100 plague bearers is 900 points of t4 shrouded goodness. The smelly tide approaches...

You know what happens when you ignite methane, right?

Beautiful, Beautiful things. I admit flamers will hinder them, and that will just be part of the fun.

Also, anyone all ragey, feel free to sell me your Nurgle stuff. My ad is up in the swap shop.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
Tell you what. I will still give my 120 Plaguebearers a lease on life. We will see how they play out with the new codex. Time to stop being negative about one unit when I like everything else I have seen so far.

120 is quite a bit!
If your using them as your main punch, you will need 4 heralds to help boost the damage output -- their biggest weakness.

You also want to use some beasts as elites and flies as fast attack. Your going to need something that can actually deliver a blow. That will also keep your theme going.
I would bring 80 plague bearers, with one herald in each squad. Start with that and see how it works. Oh, and a palequin for each herald. Those are pretty good.
Remember, heralds are ICs and LoS on a 2+. This means if your not ID'ed your not going to be hurt badly by barrage weapons. Manticores will mess up your day, but hey -- every list has bad matchups.

Here is the last batch I painted,

...why do I have images of a burgeoning futures market on 40k army releases?

"The price of eldar guardians rose 8% after rumours of them receiving pistol + ccw surfaced, though wave serpants continued to boom on strong rumours of them receiving Assault Vehicle USR"

Thanks guys for answering my question about the Soul Grinder's close combat attacks so quickly and thereby calming my nerves.

In an Allied Detachment you must take at least one Troops choice and one HQ. I wonder if a single Herald good enough for the HQ choice...

Chaospling wrote:
Thanks guys for answering my question about the Soul Grinder's close combat attacks so quickly and thereby calming my nerves.

In an Allied Detachment you must take at least one Troops choice and one HQ. I wonder if a single Herald good enough for the HQ choice...

To tell you the truth, at first I had planned to have Daemons as allies. After taking some time with the dex, I think they are much better off as a Primary Army, and my CSM will be allies.

You gain a lot more benefits by having CD as primary, compared to allies. The 4 Heralds and Warpstorm were the big deciding factors for me.

The new Plaguebearers look great to me. I'm bummed I've only got 21 ready to go. I can see why people might be dissapointed with them--the base unit is pretty dull. T4, Shrouded, not much else to see. But I think with Nurgle Heralds in the mix, there's room for a lot more flavor than there previously was. Take the Presence of Virulence, 2+ poison for your Herald and his maxed out unit of Plaguebearers. There's your Plaguebearer assault unit. Want a durable scoring unit?/Missing FNP? Well they've got a presence for that too. Then you've got the Nurgle Psychic powers, which could come in handy (-D3 WS/I on a unit in assault with 20 2+ poison Plaguebearers could be huge). Point being, there's actually options to customize Plaguebearers now. YAY. T5/FNP's great, very Nurgly and all, but that's All. There. Was. No variation unless you wanted .. what, an Instrument?

I'm liking all the new troops and Heralds, really. Heralds are boring, boring, boring in the current codex. Troops are even worse. The thing exciting me most about this new book is that there seems to be actual synergy between Heralds and their attached units. Like Necron Crypteks, they allow what start out as dull, inflexible units to become all sorts of different things. Finally, there is the added bonus of being able to add awesome character models to units. E.g., I finally get to use this guy. Oh, and this guy's definitely going with my Pink Horrors.

 whigwam wrote:
The new Plaguebearers look great to me. I'm bummed I've only got 21 ready to go. I can see why people might be dissapointed with them--the base unit is pretty dull. T4, Shrouded, not much else to see. But I think with Nurgle Heralds in the mix, there's room for a lot more flavor than there previously was. Take the Presence of Virulence, 2+ poison for your Herald and his maxed out unit of Plaguebearers. There's your Plaguebearer assault unit. Want a durable scoring unit?/Missing FNP? Well they've got a presence for that too. Then you've got the Nurgle Psychic powers, which could come in handy (-D3 WS/I on a unit in assault with 20 2+ poison Plaguebearers could be huge). Point being, there's actually options to customize Plaguebearers now. YAY. T5/FNP's great, very Nurgly and all, but that's All. There. Was. No variation unless you wanted .. what, an Instrument?

I'm really liking all the new troops and Heralds, really. Heralds are boring, boring, boring in the current codex. Troops are even worse. The thing exciting me most about this new book is that there seems to be actual synergy between Heralds and their attached units. Like Necron Crypteks, they allow what start out as dull, inflexible units to become all sorts of different things. Finally, there is the added bonus of being able to add awesome character models to units. E.g., I finally get to use this guy. Oh, and this guy's definitely going with my Pink Horrors.

Couple of problems though. Loci only allow for the strongest one to be used, so you can't stack more than one in a unit, and use them.

The Loci of Virulence isn't that good either. You only get the 2+ poison on to hit rolls of six. I'd always take the FNP one, because the greater Loci isn't really that good either IMO.

With a Nurgle Hearled, I'd go for the FNP Loci, and an Exalted gift. If you don't like the Gift, you can nab the Balesword, which is 4+ poison, instant death, and Touch of rust.

 Sasori wrote:


You gain a lot more benefits by having CD as primary, compared to allies. The 4 Heralds and Warpstorm were the big deciding factors for me.

I still see the advantage of shooty mech, cheap fighty Lords in fast units and the Helldrake/oblit combo as worth keeping CSM my main guys. That, and I have no patience for playing hordes.

But CD seem to have made using sorcerers entirely obsolete for CSM. You have access to better disciplines, can pick and choose freely as long as you stay away from named characters (which is freaking bizarre. A Nurgle sorcerer is forced to take Nurgle powers but an actual embodiment of Nurgle can go all-in on Biomancy?). So you can either go for a big 5-wound honking daemon psyker or double up on a pair of herals to back up your Chaos beatstick of choice.

Chaospling wrote:
Thanks guys for answering my question about the Soul Grinder's close combat attacks so quickly and thereby calming my nerves.

In an Allied Detachment you must take at least one Troops choice and one HQ. I wonder if a single Herald good enough for the HQ choice...

Yes a single Herald is an HQ choice and would work just fine. They are so affordable, though, having 2 is always fun.

Skriker

Just looking at all the gifts, powers, random charts..

It's going to take some major bookkeeping to keep track of it all.

 Sephyr wrote:
But CD seem to have made using sorcerers entirely obsolete for CSM. You have access to better disciplines, can pick and choose freely as long as you stay away from named characters (which is freaking bizarre. A Nurgle sorcerer is forced to take Nurgle powers but an actual embodiment of Nurgle can go all-in on Biomancy?). So you can either go for a big 5-wound honking daemon psyker or double up on a pair of herals to back up your Chaos beatstick of choice.

Nah, the Chaos Sorcerer still has a very solid role: he's an IC (which the greater daemons aren't), can go up to level 3 (and you don't have to buy a mark), and has access to the Spell Familiar, which helps out a lot against Tyranids & Eldar anti-psychic defense. And he's not terribly expensive for all that.

That said, you can stack a LOT of psychic goodness into a mixed list now, if that's your desire.

the stone of the damned: at the beginning of the assault phase. every enemy character models that are not daemons have to make a ld test. if it passes, nothing happens. if it loses. the model has -d6 on his ld value. if a model goes below 0 this way. it gets removed instantly without saves allowed.

If this works the way it looks like it does, my PBS just became character murderers.

 xole wrote:

the stone of the damned: at the beginning of the assault phase. every enemy character models that are not daemons have to make a ld test. if it passes, nothing happens. if it loses. the model has -d6 on his ld value. if a model goes below 0 this way. it gets removed instantly without saves allowed.

If this works the way it looks like it does, my PBS just became character murderers.

You have to get an Exalted gift for this. On everything you would normally buy exalted gifts for, you are likely better off purchasing two greater gifts. So, I don't know if we'll see a lot of Hellforged Artifacts. You'd most likely see it on a DP or a Bloodthirster, since they can/have a 3+ armor save. Most things with that, will usually wreck most squads on their own anyway.

EDIT: I guess you could take it on Herald if you wanted though.

The Grimoire of True names is my favorite though. I plan to combine that and some Bloodcrushers!

The Eternal Sword looks nice on the monstrous demons for +1 STR AP2 (since they are MC) and D3 extra attacks.

Ye, the grimoire seems the way to make the bloodcrushers somewhat resilient again.

 Shandara wrote:
The Eternal Sword looks nice on the monstrous demons for +1 STR AP2 (since they are MC) and D3 extra attacks.

Ye, the grimoire seems the way to make the bloodcrushers somewhat resilient again.

The Eternal Sword is nice, with D3 improvements to attacks, I and WS. At least with the Vanilla GDs I'd rather purchase two Greater gifts, and hope for the +1W IWND, 4+FNP, Reroll Invuls, and 3+ Armor results. I think you really need those to make most of the GDs better. Landing two of those is downright amazing if you get lucky.

 Sasori wrote:

 xole wrote:

the stone of the damned: at the beginning of the assault phase. every enemy character models that are not daemons have to make a ld test. if it passes, nothing happens. if it loses. the model has -d6 on his ld value. if a model goes below 0 this way. it gets removed instantly without saves allowed.

If this works the way it looks like it does, my PBS just became character murderers.

You have to get an Exalted gift for this. On everything you would normally buy exalted gifts for, you are likely better off purchasing two greater gifts. So, I don't know if we'll see a lot of Hellforged Artifacts. You'd most likely see it on a DP or a Bloodthirster, since they can/have a 3+ armor save. Most things with that, will usually wreck most squads on their own anyway.

EDIT: I guess you could take it on Herald if you wanted though.

The Grimoire of True names is my favorite though. I plan to combine that and some Bloodcrushers!

I agree with you on 2 greaters>1 exalted, at least for the character himself, simply because all of the greater gifts are good no matter who they go on. But I think sticking a few exalted gifts on Heralds wouldn't be bad. I like the Grimoire of True Names as well, and even the portalglyph(Does anyone know if you roll for more daemons from the portal glyph each daemon movement phase or just once?) I want to model a portalglyph of nurgle.

 xole wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 xole wrote:

the stone of the damned: at the beginning of the assault phase. every enemy character models that are not daemons have to make a ld test. if it passes, nothing happens. if it loses. the model has -d6 on his ld value. if a model goes below 0 this way. it gets removed instantly without saves allowed.

If this works the way it looks like it does, my PBS just became character murderers.

You have to get an Exalted gift for this. On everything you would normally buy exalted gifts for, you are likely better off purchasing two greater gifts. So, I don't know if we'll see a lot of Hellforged Artifacts. You'd most likely see it on a DP or a Bloodthirster, since they can/have a 3+ armor save. Most things with that, will usually wreck most squads on their own anyway.

EDIT: I guess you could take it on Herald if you wanted though.

The Grimoire of True names is my favorite though. I plan to combine that and some Bloodcrushers!

I agree with you on 2 greaters>1 exalted, at least for the character himself, simply because all of the greater gifts are good no matter who they go on. But I think sticking a few exalted gifts on Heralds wouldn't be bad. I like the Grimoire of True Names as well, and even the portalglyph(Does anyone know if you roll for more daemons from the portal glyph each daemon movement phase or just once?) I want to model a portalglyph of nurgle.

You roll for it at the end of each movement phase, after it's been placed

What about the +1 Invulnerable Saves from the Warpstorm chart, or the 4+ Invulnerable from the Divination powers combined with the Grimoire on some Tzeentch Daemons for a 2++ rerolling fails.

 Sasori wrote:
You roll for it at the end of each movement phase, after it's been placed

Well, guess I have a modelling project to do then.

Being able to field 120 bloodletters, all armed with with Power Weapons and S5 on the charge for only 1200 points leaves me VERY tempted to start Daemons. I'm gonna wait until more info on the possible new Bloodthirster release though, since the current one is [Please do not try to circumvent the expletive filter - thanks!] hideous...

 xole wrote:

the stone of the damned: at the beginning of the assault phase. every enemy character models that are not daemons have to make a ld test. if it passes, nothing happens. if it loses. the model has -d6 on his ld value. if a model goes below 0 this way. it gets removed instantly without saves allowed.

If this works the way it looks like it does, my PBS just became character murderers.

Thats how it works but only against models in melee.

Good lord ... this is almost as bad as Zombie spam my friend did on me.

5++ ... Check

100+ models... Check

Fearless ... They got something even better

On top of that add in a Herald to make them even more of a pain.

Thats not not even counting their special rules of each individual unit ... Shroud ... AP 3 Attacks ... Rending.

Who ever says Daemons suck dosnt under stand 6th edition. Its all about Quantity over Quality ... which is why artillery and blasts are making such a big comeback.

I cant wait to see what they do to Orks and IG.

Tyrs13 wrote:
Fearless ... They got something even better

How so? It sounds worse to me. The off chance of getting your casualties replaced is cancelled out by the chance to lose everything. Losing a number of models equal to how much you fail the test by is not better than. "You lose by 6" "OK I'm fine, your turn."

Just a minor rules question here.

When they say that the Changeling swaps his characteristics with another model in base contact, does it mean he gets their stats in exchange for the opponent getting the Changeling's original stats?

Or does he just copy the opponent's stats and they proceed as normal as a near mirror-image of each other?

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Just a minor rules question here.

When they say that the Changeling swaps his characteristics with another model in base contact, does it mean he gets their stats in exchange for the opponent getting the Changeling's original stats?

Or does he just copy the opponent's stats and they proceed as normal as a near mirror-image of each other?

It swaps them from what I understand. Someone with a codex should answer that though.

 Eldarain wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:
Fearless ... They got something even better

How so? It sounds worse to me. The off chance of getting your casualties replaced is cancelled out by the chance to lose everything. Losing a number of models equal to how much you fail the test by is not better than. "You lose by 6" "OK I'm fine, your turn."

It's worse for close combat. However, against shooting, the unit is effectively Fearless. What this means, however, is that Daemon unit's can Go To Ground. For Plaguebearers, who already get a +2 to their cover save from Shrouded, makes them incredible. Plop them in area terrain, or behind any bit of cover, for a 2+ cover save. Nice!

Mohoc wrote:

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Just a minor rules question here.

When they say that the Changeling swaps his characteristics with another model in base contact, does it mean he gets their stats in exchange for the opponent getting the Changeling's original stats?

Or does he just copy the opponent's stats and they proceed as normal as a near mirror-image of each other?

It swaps them from what I understand. Someone with a codex should answer that though.

The Changeling can choose to take any of the opponents stats, but the opponent is not effected.

punchdub wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Just a minor rules question here.

When they say that the Changeling swaps his characteristics with another model in base contact, does it mean he gets their stats in exchange for the opponent getting the Changeling's original stats?

Or does he just copy the opponent's stats and they proceed as normal as a near mirror-image of each other?

It swaps them from what I understand. Someone with a codex should answer that though.

The Changeling can choose to take any of the opponents stats, but the opponent is not effected.

Fantasy has much the same rule right now it sounds like. In fantasy you would "swap" the statistics.. i get yours, you get mine... Im not sure how it reads in the new book however.

Camarodragon wrote:

punchdub wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Just a minor rules question here.

When they say that the Changeling swaps his characteristics with another model in base contact, does it mean he gets their stats in exchange for the opponent getting the Changeling's original stats?

Or does he just copy the opponent's stats and they proceed as normal as a near mirror-image of each other?

It swaps them from what I understand. Someone with a codex should answer that though.

The Changeling can choose to take any of the opponents stats, but the opponent is not effected.

Fantasy has much the same rule right now it sounds like. In fantasy you would "swap" the statistics.. i get yours, you get mine... Im not sure how it reads in the new book however.

It's probably not a full swap like the last whfb version of him. If it's a full swap of stats and equipment it would be hilarious to watch him pimp slap a NDK, dlord, or the swarmlord. Players would have to model him as Tyrion Lannister

 schadenfreude wrote:

Camarodragon wrote:

punchdub wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Just a minor rules question here.

When they say that the Changeling swaps his characteristics with another model in base contact, does it mean he gets their stats in exchange for the opponent getting the Changeling's original stats?

Or does he just copy the opponent's stats and they proceed as normal as a near mirror-image of each other?

It swaps them from what I understand. Someone with a codex should answer that though.

The Changeling can choose to take any of the opponents stats, but the opponent is not effected.

Fantasy has much the same rule right now it sounds like. In fantasy you would "swap" the statistics.. i get yours, you get mine... Im not sure how it reads in the new book however.

It's probably not a full swap like the last whfb version of him. If it's a full swap of stats and equipment it would be hilarious to watch him pimp slap a NDK, dlord, or the swarmlord. Players would have to model him as Tywin Lannister

No, it [essentially] says what I said it says above. I'm not about to post the entire paragraph.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Camarodragon wrote:

punchdub wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Just a minor rules question here.

When they say that the Changeling swaps his characteristics with another model in base contact, does it mean he gets their stats in exchange for the opponent getting the Changeling's original stats?

Or does he just copy the opponent's stats and they proceed as normal as a near mirror-image of each other?

It swaps them from what I understand. Someone with a codex should answer that though.

The Changeling can choose to take any of the opponents stats, but the opponent is not effected.

Fantasy has much the same rule right now it sounds like. In fantasy you would "swap" the statistics.. i get yours, you get mine... Im not sure how it reads in the new book however.

It's probably not a full swap like the last whfb version of him. If it's a full swap of stats and equipment it would be hilarious to watch him pimp slap a NDK, dlord, or the swarmlord. Players would have to model him as Tywin Lannister

No, it [essentially] says what I said it says above. I'm not about to post the entire paragraph.

In Fantasy he copies the stats, may take either value if dual stat (mounted character), unless the other model is in a challenge the Changeling isn't in.

In 40k he copies the stats.

I've got a look at the new codex and I have to say I like it a lot.

***Warning. I started out writing a few vague impressions and ended by writing an essay. You have been warned. Also, sorry.***

A few of the things that I like:

Aegis Defense Lines are amazing with daemon armies now. I don't own one, so I have to get a look at one to measure it, but as long as they are at least 1 and a quarter inches tall you'll be able to give 2+ cover to Nurgle Soul Grinders. 2+ cover and 5+ invuln armor 13 turrets--no one wants to deal with that. Plaguebearers on quadguns are quite resilient, too, against most things. This is the sort of back line that can withstand any but the most concerted firepower.

Soul Grinders: see Aegis Defense Lines.

Fateweaver makes an awesome choice as a Daemons warlord. If you bring a herald equipped with the Grimoire of True Names (preferably hiding somewhere that is out of sight so that it doesn't die on turn 1) you have a T5 flying monstrous creature warlord with a rerollable 2+ invuln save every turn, assuming you don't fail two rolls in a row getting the Grimoire of True Names to go off, who gives access to a free re-roll of any one dice a turn, allows a separate free re-roll of the warp table every turn, has access to every psychic discipline in the rulebook outside of telekinesis (though, granted, not all at once), and can send out a potential 4d6 S5 AP4 shots with Flickering Fire of Tzeentch every turn while still being able to afford one of his other powers. Oh, and he's a monstrous creature too so, on the off chance you need him to stomp a vehicle, he can try to do that, too. Not bad for 30 points less than his old iteration.

Access to cheap troops: I realize this was part of some grand strategy on the part of GW to sell models, but the drop in points cost of Daemon troops is still a sizable buff to our army. Someone pointed out earlier that Plaguebearers are now even better at holding down objectives than they were before, and I think a similar thing has happened for all of our troops. Daemonettes, for instance, are just as survivable as they used to be, hit just about as hard for their points, and are significantly cheaper. I think they'll make an excellent jamming unit. Bloodletters aren't quite as well off, but I think they're still in a better spot than they were before, especially if you incorporate Heralds. The only possible outlier is Pink Horrors. They're dirt cheap like the rest of our troops but their offense has dropped like a rock. I don't like the 2/3 chance they have of giving a Marine (or worse: an Ork) unit that they've shot stackable levels of feel no pain, either. I'm going to experiment with them and try and make them work, but I have a feeling they won't do too well.

Anything Slaanesh: seriously, even the fiends seem to have come off better than any of their counterparts in the much diminished Daemon elite slot. As I've said, Daemonettes are, at least in my opinion, superior to bloodletters. They've lost 1 initiative and attack, but have gained 1 WS and +3" on runs in trade, not to mention the fact that they've gone down in cost by more than a third of what they previously were and haven't gone down in survivability at all. I compare these things to Dark Eldar Wyches and my mind boggles. Seekers of Slaanesh are my pick for best fast attack slot, too.

Psykers: I admit to being unfamiliar with the usefulness of psykers in 40k, as the two armies I play are Daemons and Dark Eldar, but having consistent access to all of the psychic disciplines in the rulebook via heralds/daemon princes feels potent to me.

Unpredictability and Adaptability: all of the equipment for our HQs and characters, which we don't need to select until after we have rolled for our gifts (aka: in game), our myriad psychic powers, and our access to things which allow us to manipulate the large numbers of powerful random effects inherent in our codex (mainly via Fateweaver) makes the new daemon army both adaptable and difficult for an opponent to predict. You can, for instance, choose to take a mastercrafted ap 2 sword rather than a +2 strength ap 4 on your Tzeentch Herald with a Lesser Reward if you find yourself playing against a Marine list, or vice versa if you're up against Orks. Our excellent speed and easy access to flying monstrous creature HQs will make us hard to pin down, too. The major downside to all of this is that Daemon players are likely to become infamous for taking an hour to set up their army before a game starts, but oh well.

Deep Striking: The Daemon army now has deep strike across the board without having to deepstrike. In addition, the icons that we use to mitigate scatter issues have been dropped in cost a lot and have suffered only a moderate nerf to their utility. I can easily see a nasty Slaaneshi alpha strike list being built with large chunks of Daemonettes, flying Daemon Princes of Slaanesh, a Keeper of Secrets and four Heralds of Slaanesh, and Seekers of Slaanesh with Icons of Chaos.


A few of the things I don't like:

Chariots: the new chariots might be worth taking, but most of them hog a heavy support slot, and I don't see them competing with my soulgrinders any time soon. I would have loved to have seen more chariots in non HS slots like the Slaanesh one is. Oh well.

Warp Storm Table: No matter what they do to protect themselves from it Daemon players can still be easily screwed out of a game by the Warp Storm Table. Large units should blunt the occasional snake eyes (all units must take an instability test) and our ready access to extremely cheap character upgrades makes a bad experience with the 3 roll really unlikely (super instability on one of your random characters), but the 4 on the warp storm table is extraordinarily harsh. Having our entire army reduced to a 6+ save for a turn is not good in any way shape or form. Copious use of available cover (yay Aegis defense line!) should help, as should our new found ability to go to ground, but it's still likely to shut down a turn at best and cost the game at worst. The 4 result on the warp storm table is the main reason I'm currently intending to bring Fateweaver in most of my lists.

Daemonic Instability: Daemonic instability really forces daemons to take large units and spam heralds, in my opinion. If we lose a combat by, say, 5 models, which I don't find unlikely given the tools we have access to now, most of our units will be taking an additional 2d6-2 wounds. That's an extra 3 or 4 unsavable wounds on average. On a 20 (now 15) man blood letter unit that's not too big of a tax. Suffering this amount on two 10 man bloodletter units each would suck. The double ones healing you to your previous amount and double 6s killing your entire unit nonsense is hard to fathom, too. I'm so glad for the reroll item that Fateweaver brings, and so sad I can't have more of it.

So basically, Daemons have turned into a real swarm army, that are really good at cc, terribad at shooting, virtually no armour saves and are going to have a really tough time of getting into cc?

I dunno... I mean I really like the models, some of them are really nice looking, but some of the new rules are just garbage.

Bloodcrushers for example... 6+ save? Juggernauts are iron warhorses with badassitude, they should be 4+ minimum.

Horrors... Used to be a fairly Dakka unit, but now with that stackable fnp bonus to your enemy, what is the point in taking them?

On the upside... the army finally represents the fluff. Daemons have always been a daemonic horde in the lore, but never on the tabletop. I welcome this.

So how is this army supposed to play out?

Puscifer wrote:
So basically, Daemons have turned into a real swarm army, that are really good at cc, terribad at shooting, virtually no armour saves and are going to have a really tough time of getting into cc?

I dunno... I mean I really like the models, some of them are really nice looking, but some of the new rules are just garbage.

Bloodcrushers for example... 6+ save? Juggernauts are iron warhorses with badassitude, they should be 4+ minimum.

Horrors... Used to be a fairly Dakka unit, but now with that stackable fnp bonus to your enemy, what is the point in taking them?

On the upside... the army finally represents the fluff. Daemons have always been a daemonic horde in the lore, but never on the tabletop. I welcome this.

So how is this army supposed to play out?

From what I am seeing based on this new codex, Daemons now occupy an in-between role from pure horde armies and MEQ. They are cheap enough to be run as hordes, but powerful enough o their own, with their ++ saves, being fearless, and AP 3/ rending weapons in the case of Khorne/Slaneesh that they can till do damage if their unit is cut down. For example, charge 5 boys or 5 gaunts into a unit of tacticals and they're gonna get cut down while the marines lose maybe one guy. Charge 5 bloodletters or daemonettes into the same unit, and while they'll probably still die, their Ap3/rending weapons means they may yet also take down a good number of marines with them before they do.

I'm only counting Khorne and Tzeentch here since Nurgle and Tzeentch troops fulfill different roles (Shooting for Horrors, Objective holding for PBs)

An in between role?

Please explain, all I'm seeing is a cc horde army with liitle support from range or to get to the front line.

I have found something though...

Four Nurgle Heralds with fnp locus... four large units of PB going objective grabbing. That's something that will be tough to get rid of.

I can see a reason for Eradicators now.

It's interesting how much people like Go To Ground. Yes you'll get some extra cover save, but the unit can't do anything the following turn. That's quite some movement you lose there.

As for Bloodcrushers, then a S5 AP3 Cavalry unit is quite awesome, but I agree that the toughness of the unit doesn't live up to the model which is a must for me to use the unit.
T4 and Armour save 6+ is ridiculous for such a behemoth. I had the same feeling for Defilers in 5th edition.

Well, mostly it's talked about for Plaguebearers and since they are not really supposed to go somewhere as objective sitters, not moving sounds fine to me

I'll definitely use them this way as allies for my CSM, and what I've heard so far makes me really want to start a Daemon army too

Chaospling wrote:
It's interesting how much people like Go To Ground. Yes you'll get some extra cover save, but the unit can't do anything the following turn. That's quite some movement you lose there.

As for Bloodcrushers, then a S5 AP3 Cavalry unit is quite awesome, but I agree that the toughness of the unit doesn't live up to the model which is a must for me to use the unit.
T4 and Armour save 6+ is ridiculous for such a behemoth. I had the same feeling for Defilers in 5th edition.

I'm still hoping the juggernaut still gives a 3+ and 1+T, and they forgot to mention it in the statline xD t4 6+ is a really bad nerf when coming from t5 3+ EW... even accounting for the extra wound

 Requiem wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
It's interesting how much people like Go To Ground. Yes you'll get some extra cover save, but the unit can't do anything the following turn. That's quite some movement you lose there.

As for Bloodcrushers, then a S5 AP3 Cavalry unit is quite awesome, but I agree that the toughness of the unit doesn't live up to the model which is a must for me to use the unit.
T4 and Armour save 6+ is ridiculous for such a behemoth. I had the same feeling for Defilers in 5th edition.

I'm still hoping the juggernaut still gives a 3+ and 1+T, and they forgot to mention it in the statline xD t4 6+ is a really bad nerf when coming from t5 3+ EW... even accounting for the extra wound

They do not get the Warpforged armor (3+)

Essentially they were useful previous dex, and now that people have bought them, they nerfed it right into the ground.

Fiends got nerfed, but not as badly..Still rather bad though.

IMHO the cost per wound of juggernauts are to high. At 15 points pet wound they are very costly. If theyhad EW it would be worth it still but without EW MLs are removing 45 point models.

I think seekers are the better option. 12 points each. Decent offensive power. The ability to move 21 inches a turn when running

Im not taking fiends. The only decent multi wound models are greater daemons, DPs, and beasts of Nurgle. Even th masque, whom is really cool will die when looked at

So I really couldn't be bothered going through the last few pages looking for the changes to Nurgle in fantasy, can someone please sum that up for me?

 jonolikespie wrote:
So I really couldn't be bothered going through the last few pages looking for the changes to Nurgle in fantasy, can someone please sum that up for me?

Yeah, but we couldn't be bothered to write it down

 labmouse42 wrote:
IMHO the cost per wound of juggernauts are to high. At 15 points pet wound they are very costly. If theyhad EW it would be worth it still but without EW MLs are removing 45 point models.

I think seekers are the better option. 12 points each. Decent offensive power. The ability to move 21 inches a turn when running

Im not taking fiends. The only decent multi wound models are greater daemons, DPs, and beasts of Nurgle. Even th masque, whom is really cool will die when looked at

I don't know, I think with the Grimoire of True names they can be made quite effective. I'm also don't see near as much Strength 8 as I used to, really only Space Wolves seem to carry a lot. I'm seeing much more plasma, and Bloodcrushers will be pretty effective against that.

We will just have to try it and see.

Oh, for what its worth. I figured out something.
Reading the daemon special rules, it appears that most CSM units cannot be joined by daemons.
"Daemons can only join units that are comprised entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)

Possessed and Warp Talons are daemons. Provided the alignments match up, you can have a herald join your unit of possessed.

While I doubt that passing SnP/Shrouded/FNP to a squad of Nurgle Possessed would be all that awesome, there you are.
Maybe if you inflitrated them using Huron as your warlord? While they are SnP, they are still Fleet. (riddle me that batman)

You could also run Khorne warp talons and stick 4 heralds on Juggernaughts in the squad. That would be a pretty frightening and fast moving beatstick unit.

 labmouse42 wrote:
We will just have to try it and see.

Oh, for what its worth. I figured out something.
Reading the daemon special rules, it appears that most CSM units cannot be joined by daemons.
"Daemons can only join units that are comprised entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)

Possessed and Warp Talons are daemons. Provided the alignments match up, you can have a herald join your unit of possessed.

While I doubt that passing SnP/Shrouded/FNP to a squad of Nurgle Possessed would be all that awesome, there you are.
Maybe if you inflitrated them using Huron as your warlord? While they are SnP, they are still Fleet. (riddle me that batman)

You could also run Khorne warp talons and stick 4 heralds on Juggernaughts in the squad. That would be a pretty frightening and fast moving beatstick unit.

It's not possible in any way. Possessed and Warp Talons aren't "Daemons of...", they have Marks which isn't the same.

Units with instability cant join units without it.

zamnath wrote:
Aegis Defense Lines are amazing with daemon armies now

That won't work. At least 25% of the model must be behind the ADL. The soul grinder is 4.5" tall, and the ADL is 1.5" tall, but the problem is the spidery legs are the only things behind the wall. The vast majority of the soul grinders body is visible, so it would not get the 2+ cover save.

Your right on the ADL being awesome for daemons though. Just throw that thing out in the middle of the board and use it for a 4+ cover save. Anything that draws a LoS over it (friend or foe) is getting the cover save.

The other thing is that bloodletters are 'on point' with that quad gun. Sporting a BS of 5, they can man those defenses like no marine ever could....

Chaospling wrote:
It's not possible in any way. Possessed and Warp Talons aren't "Daemons of...", they have Marks which isn't the same.

So how does a daemon prince of Khorne use the Axe of Blind Fury?
There is a precedent that marks indicate being of the same alignment.

skarsol wrote:
Units with instability cant join units without it.

Incorrect. Units without instability cannot join a unit with instability. Heralds are only limited by the text I provided above. If you found something else that indicates otherwise, please let me know.

Does the Soul Grinder benefit from a Nurgle alignment?

 labmouse42 wrote:
So how does a daemon prince of Khorne use the Axe of Blind Fury?
There is a precedent that marks indicate being of the same alignment.

CSM FAQ wrote:Page 69 – Axe of Blind Fury.
Change first rules sentence to ‘Models with the Mark of
Khorne, or Daemons of Khorne, only.’

It was FAQ'd to allow it to use it.

Ah, you're correct. So then they effectively lose the bad effects of it when they join a CSM unit since the unit doesn't have it andso it never triggers?

What time does itunes preorders download?

 skkipper wrote:
What time does itunes preorders download?

They'll probably go live at 7pm, since that's midnight in the UK.

yeah some of us are 37 minutes from midnite sadly. I don't want to wait. :(

Can the CSM daemons benefit from the CD icons for Deep Striking? Nurgle oblits, for instance, have the Daemon rule and are aligned, but they are not "daemons of Nurgle".

EDIT: strange doublepost.

 Sephyr wrote:

Can the CSM daemons benefit from the CD icons for Deep Striking? Nurgle oblits, for instance, have the Daemon rule and are aligned, but they are not "daemons of Nurgle".

"have the same daemonic alignment (both units are entirely composed of models with the same Daemon of Khorne, Tzeentzh, Nurgle, or Slaanesh special rule)"

GW has been good about FAQing their books.

Hopefully this one will be FAQed in the next day or so.

skarsol wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

Can the CSM daemons benefit from the CD icons for Deep Striking? Nurgle oblits, for instance, have the Daemon rule and are aligned, but they are not "daemons of Nurgle".

"have the same daemonic alignment (both units are entirely composed of models with the same Daemon of Khorne, Tzeentzh, Nurgle, or Slaanesh special rule)"

They can still benefit from the reduced scatter, since it only requires the 'Daemon' special rule (and that they all have the same alignment).

Ah, you are correct.

Of course, placing a d6" scattering unit within 6" of another unit is asking for mishap.

Oh, assuming that a daemon with mark of nurgle counts as Daemon with the alignment of Nurgle.

Mutilators and Oblitators could have heralds join them.
Mutilators with FnP + shrouded might actually be halfway decent. That would make them extremely durable.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Oh, assuming that a daemon with mark of nurgle counts as Daemon with the alignment of Nurgle.

Mutilators and Oblitators could have heralds join them.
Mutilators with FnP + shrouded might actually be halfway decent. That would make them extremely durable.

Wouldn't the Obllits have to have daemonic instability for the herald to join them?

We already resolved that. IC without DI cannot join a unit with DI. IC with DI can join a unit without DI.

skarsol wrote:
We already resolved that. IC without DI cannot join a unit with DI. IC with DI can join a unit without DI.

The "We" he is refering to is internet nerd collection. I would in no way purchase my army based on 40k dudes thoughts on what the rules mean.

Once you get the book I will be interested to see how you can possibly twist the words in that section. It's not like we're performing poetry interpretation here.

skarsol wrote:
We already resolved that. IC without DI cannot join a unit with DI. IC with DI can join a unit without DI.

Thank you Skarsol, I must of missed it.

 Swara wrote:
Wouldn't the Obllits have to have daemonic instability for the herald to join them?

No.
Daemons can only join units that are comprised entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)

Only units with daemonic instability can join units with daemonic instability. This locks out CSM units from joining daemons. Not the other way around.
The question is this "Does a unit of Mutilators with the Mark of Slaanesh count as having the same alignment as a daemon of slaanesh". That will need to be FAQed at your local tourney or by GW.

This is designed so that people doesn't put Lords and Sorcerors in a squad of Deamons and Deep Strike with them, even if they have a Termi armor.

A Nurgle Sorceror in a pavement of 20 PB's + Herald...

But a Herald+PM's, is apparently doable.

Mmmh... An Herald of Khorne in a Khorne Chosen Squad...

About the alignments, when you look at the Warpstorm table the results that hits units also mention " Deamons of X or Marked by X" so it might be 2 things, its designed that way because the Soulgrinder is the only unit of the book that can be Marked, or its done so for when you play CSM allies and they get also hit.

SO maybe, and i say maybe, because its a sling shot that i'm doing here, Marked units are regarded as alignend to the same god, as the Deamons.

Dunno if it is more clear in the dex or anything, but it might be something cleared up in a following FaQ.

And i do hope that the Crushers saves will be faqed...

 skkipper wrote:
yeah some of us are 37 minutes from midnite sadly. I don't want to wait. :(

Just wait. I guess you'll be disappointed.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Swara wrote:
Wouldn't the Obllits have to have daemonic instability for the herald to join them?

No.
Daemons can only join units that are comprised entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)

Only units with daemonic instability can join units with daemonic instability. This locks out CSM units from joining daemons. Not the other way around.
The question is this "Does a unit of Mutilators with the Mark of Slaanesh count as having the same alignment as a daemon of slaanesh". That will need to be FAQed at your local tourney or by GW.

Thanks. I was a bit confused by it, but hopefully FAQ wise it is doable. FnP with 3 Oblits would make them beastly. And the Loci of poison is only wound on 2+ for only hits that are a 6 correct?

 Swara wrote:
Thanks. I was a bit confused by it, but hopefully FAQ wise it is doable. FnP with 3 Oblits would make them beastly. And the Loci of poison is only wound on 2+ for only hits that are a 6 correct?

Correct. "To hit rolls of a 6 ... close combat ... Poisoned (2+)"

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
But a Herald+PM's, is apparently doable.

Sorry, this is not allowed.
Plague Marines are not daemons. A herald can only join a unit of daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swara wrote:
Thanks. I was a bit confused by it, but hopefully FAQ wise it is doable. FnP with 3 Oblits would make them beastly. And the Loci of poison is only wound on 2+ for only hits that are a 6 correct?

I think it opens a lot of doors, and might add some functionality to otherwise useless units.

Mutilators are garbage. If I can give them FNP, then they might be better. If they can deep strike in off a daemon icon, they might be even better.

skarsol wrote:

 Swara wrote:
Thanks. I was a bit confused by it, but hopefully FAQ wise it is doable. FnP with 3 Oblits would make them beastly. And the Loci of poison is only wound on 2+ for only hits that are a 6 correct?

Correct. "To hit rolls of a 6 ... close combat ... Poisoned (2+)"

At least they made it a simple choice of which loci I'm going to take. : (

I looked through the thread and didn't see the answer to this. I was curious as to what the Loci of Khorne are. I know that they have a banner which gives a charge of 6+D6" which is pretty badass.

Lesser: Adamantium Will
Greater: Rage
Exalted: Hatred

This extreme fear of any real direct interplay between CD and CSM irks me.

You can put an IG primaris psyker attached to a squad of Black Templars. You can have Eldrad fist-bumping a haemonculi in the same unit and a scrub Guard IC bossing proud Ultramarines around.

But having a squad of plague marines being led by an incarnation of the deity they have dedicated their souls to? Unthinkable. A Khorne Lord adding his juggernaut to a stampede of bloodcrushers? Not fluffy at all. Ahriman leading a host of horrors he just pulled from the Warp? Na ga happen.

Hell, pretty much 90% of CSM fluff revolved around using icons and rituals to brong Warp Daemons about to swell their numbers and fight by their side, but if you looked at these two codexes you'd never guess.

Guess they need to work toward having the organic, long-lasting bond shared by Eldar and Tau.

I suspect as more and more 6th edition books come out, they'll all be locked down in a similar fashion.

I agree with the forced lack of synergy between codexes. There's only been one loyalist 6th book and it unlocked 4++ IG blob squads. I'm not seeing anything on that level here. (still happy about what I'm hearing from the codex for the most part though )

 Sephyr wrote:
This extreme fear of any real direct interplay between CD and CSM irks me.

You can put an IG primaris psyker attached to a squad of Black Templars. You can have Eldrad fist-bumping a haemonculi in the same unit and a scrub Guard IC bossing proud Ultramarines around.

But having a squad of plague marines being led by an incarnation of the deity they have dedicated their souls to? Unthinkable. A Khorne Lord adding his juggernaut to a stampede of bloodcrushers? Not fluffy at all. Ahriman leading a host of horrors he just pulled from the Warp? Na ga happen.

Hell, pretty much 90% of CSM fluff revolved around using icons and rituals to brong Warp Daemons about to swell their numbers and fight by their side, but if you looked at these two codexes you'd never guess.

Guess they need to work toward having the organic, long-lasting bond shared by Eldar and Tau.

I really don't think you can attach a Primaris Psyker to Black Templars. It says very clearly that Black Templars cannot ally with any psykers except grey knights.

+1 here.
It makes me sad that Vect and Eldrad can bro-fist, but Nurgle forbid that one of his chosen deamons join a squad of dedicated plague marines.

Now Slaanesh will have Eldar/Dark Eldar as preferred enemy.

The plaguemarine incident can be explained simply that it's too dangerous for the plague marines to be in the same immediate vicinity as a herald. Or that the herald doesnt consider them worthy of his prescence.
But oblits, mutis, and warp talons have crossed a threshold, where they have given up any humanity to become a "true weapon" of the dark gods, where as a plaguemarine might embrace nurgle for selfish reasons. Something like that....
As far as "marks = daemons of," i personally don't think they do, because there is a difference, but no clear evidence to the contrary either. Either way you argue, it's safest to assume that marks =/= daemons of....

skarsol wrote:
I suspect as more and more 6th edition books come out, they'll all be locked down in a similar fashion.

Nice hardcover books but playing DA or CSM? No, thank you, I wouldn't.

skarsol wrote:
I suspect as more and more 6th edition books come out, they'll all be locked down in a similar fashion.

Yup. It's plainly obvious that GW is being very careful to leave the door wide open for the removal of Allies in 7th.

Edited by Manchu

skarsol wrote:
I suspect as more and more 6th edition books come out, they'll all be locked down in a similar fashion.

The only thing I'd add to this thought is this. With the single decision to have ATSKNF transfer with independant characters any army who is battle brothers with a loyalist chapter already has an amazing level of synergy before a single word is written in a 6th update.

Neronoxx wrote:
As far as "marks = daemons of," i personally don't think they do, because there is a difference, but no clear evidence to the contrary either. Either way you argue, it's safest to assume that marks =/= daemons of....

Except that GW has already ruled cases where they do mean the same thing. The FAQ giving a daemon prince of knorne access to the Axe of Blind Fury (which requires a mark of khorne) is an example.

It will require a FAQ, either on GWs part or on the tourney organizers.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

skarsol wrote:
I suspect as more and more 6th edition books come out, they'll all be locked down in a similar fashion.

Yup. It's plainly obvious that GW is being very careful to leave the door wide open for the removal of Allies in 7th.

I would be very surprised if allies remained in 7th. Knowing GW, allies was implemented both as a way for certain armies that lacked things (anti-air, fliers, long range weapons, etc.) to get them, and more cynically, so they could force people to buy different armies. Once 6th nears its end and most armies get access to these things in some way, allies will be removed entirely. Most tournaments already don't allow them if I'm not mistaken (along with double FOC buts that's a whole other issue).

 lord_blackfang wrote:


Yup. It's plainly obvious that GW is being very careful to leave the door wide open for the removal of Allies in 7th.

"Better expand those 500 points of IG you bought to boost your Ultramarines into a proper army now, fanboy! Oh, and we nerfed Vendettas into the ground, so they don't even count toward the goal!"

As for Neronox's explanation for not allowing IC attachment, that's really reaching. you think daemons wouldreally care about who fights alongside them during the rare chances they get to tear things up in the Materium?

"Stop this charge NOW, my fellow Bloodletters! Kharn is trying to be a party pooper and tag along again! Warp help me young man, I'll turn this slaughter right around and head home if you don't behave!"

or

"See Typhus, it's not that we don't -like- you and your plague marines. We think's your just swell! It's just that we're a bit too toxic to hang around with you. I know you're actually WAY more durable than us, with higher toughness, power armor and organic FNP, and we all carry the same poisoned weapons...but...um...it's not you, it's us."

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Most tournaments already don't allow them if I'm not mistaken (along with double FOC buts that's a whole other issue).

I haven't seen a tournament that doesn't allow allies in 6th.

 labmouse42 wrote:
+1 here.
It makes me sad that Vect and Eldrad can bro-fist, but Nurgle forbid that one of his chosen deamons join a squad of dedicated plague marines.

If you think that's bad, read the Disciple rule on Phoenix Lords. "Cannot join ASPECT SQUADS that are not their aspect."

Incubi are not aspect squads.

RAW, Karandras can join a unit of Incubi led by Drazhar.

Because apparently they can put their differences aside when the Archon and the Autarch tell them to play nice.

On topic: Why do people think it's obvious that GW is leaving the door open to get rid of allies in 7th edition by saying in 6th edition books that things can't ally. By your logic, GW's ploy is to get people to buy multiple armies. So wouldn't it make more sense to let people ally CSMs and Daemons, then simply remove the ally rules in the 7th edition rulebook? That way they can be that money-grubbing, greedy, capitalist company that we all know Gamesworkshop to be (that was sarcasm, by the way). Why would the codices need the rules to disallow allies when, according to you, allies won't be allowed at all in the next rule set, all the while saying GW is trying to get all our moneyz? And to scream "it makes no sense!!" before you even have the codex in your hand is equally silly. Unless, of course, you speak fluent German.

 Sephyr wrote:

"Stop this charge NOW, my fellow Bloodletters! Kharn is trying to be a party pooper and tag along again! Warp help me young man, I'll turn this slaughter right around and head home if you don't behave!"

I LOLed

You could argue that there might be communication barriers between Plague Marines and Daemons of Nurgle that would get in the way of the PMs actually being led by a Daemon. There is a difference between fighting alongside one another (allies) and actually being told what to do by an allied force on the battlefield.

That doesn't excuse the general ridiculousness of things like DE/Eldar fist bumps, but for CSM/CD I think it is a reasonable "real world" explanation.

I'm hoping to hear something positive about Daemons as an elite army in this codex, otherwise, all my wife's models are getting relegated to D&D monsters for our next campaign.
I refuse to purchase another 60-70 troops and paint them.

 matphat wrote:
I'm hoping to hear something positive about Daemons as an elite army in this codex, otherwise, all my wife's models are getting relegated to D&D monsters for our next campaign.
I refuse to purchase another 60-70 troops and paint them.

From the rumours it sounds like you can do both. Horde deamons or elite deamons and maybe some Flying Circus.

 Punisher Gatling Cannon wrote:

 matphat wrote:
I'm hoping to hear something positive about Daemons as an elite army in this codex, otherwise, all my wife's models are getting relegated to D&D monsters for our next campaign.
I refuse to purchase another 60-70 troops and paint them.

From the rumours it sounds like you can do both. Horde deamons or elite deamons and maybe some Flying Circus.

Both seems possible. A horde army with many troop units since troops are cheap, 9-10 pts per model.
A flying circus could contain 3 DPs (as heavy support) which are unlocked by taking a GD, and another DP as HQ.

 matphat wrote:
I'm hoping to hear something positive about Daemons as an elite army in this codex, otherwise, all my wife's models are getting relegated to D&D monsters for our next campaign.
I refuse to purchase another 60-70 troops and paint them.

You know you can still use them for your D&D campaign and play 40k with them. Those two are not mutually exclusive.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Both seems possible. A horde army with many troop units since troops are cheap, 9-10 pts per model.
A flying circus could contain 3 DPs (as heavy support) which are unlocked by taking a GD, and another DP as HQ.

I was thinking of something like this, if your looking for a flying circus at 1750 points.
LoC w/greater reward, lvl 3 psyker
LoC w/greater reward, lvl 3 psyker
DP of Tzeentch w/Wings, Armor, lvl 3 psyker
DP of Tzeentch w/Wings, Armor, lvl 3 psyker
DP of Tzeentch w/Wings, Armor, lvl 3 psyker
15 plague bearers
15 plague bearers

Each DP/LoC is throwing out 4d6 STR 5, AP 4 shots per turn. You have enough rolls to where you can try for bolt, or grab fun stuff from other trees.
I'm sure as get the book and dig through it we will find even more combos. My guesses on point costs are what I heard for rumors, so I might be off on what you can bring.

"A flying circus could contain 3 DPs (as heavy support) which are unlocked by taking a GD, and another DP as HQ.

Forgive perhaps an already answered Q in this thread but for the 40k version is the split army Daemon DS rule still in place or can you deploy as normal like everyone else now?

 Sephyr wrote:
If that army ever sees Rune Priests or Eldar runes on the table, though, pretty much all of its shooting is gone.

Which is fine by me, as flying circus as a borderline abusive build.

The same thing happens with horror shooting builds. Tzeentch has bad matchup vs Eldar / SW.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

skarsol wrote:
I suspect as more and more 6th edition books come out, they'll all be locked down in a similar fashion.

Yup. It's plainly obvious that GW is being very careful to leave the door wide open for the removal of Allies in 7th.

I would be very surprised if allies remained in 7th. Knowing GW, allies was implemented both as a way for certain armies that lacked things (anti-air, fliers, long range weapons, etc.) to get them, and more cynically, so they could force people to buy different armies. Once 6th nears its end and most armies get access to these things in some way, allies will be removed entirely. Most tournaments already don't allow them if I'm not mistaken (along with double FOC buts that's a whole other issue).

The vast majority of tournaments allow allies... you need to do a better job of mastering your google-fu

 Ratius wrote:
Forgive perhaps an already answered Q in this thread but for the 40k version is the split army Daemon DS rule still in place or can you deploy as normal like everyone else now?

They deploy as everyone else, but all have deep strike.

skarsol wrote:
Lesser: Adamantium Will
Greater: Rage
Exalted: Hatred

Eh, pretty weak overall especially considering that one of the Nurgle one grants freakin' FNP.

That's fine though ,more points to spend on Bloodthirsters.

They deploy as everyone else, but all have deep strike.

So they may choose to deploy as normal or go full DS?
If full DS do they still have to split forces?

Sorry if this has been covered

 Ratius wrote:

They deploy as everyone else, but all have deep strike.

So they may choose to deploy as normal or go full DS?
If full DS do they still have to split forces?

Sorry if this has been covered

They do not have the option to go full DS.

Raulengrin wrote:

On topic: Why do people think it's obvious that GW is leaving the door open to get rid of allies in 7th edition by saying in 6th edition books that things can't ally. By your logic, GW's ploy is to get people to buy multiple armies. So wouldn't it make more sense to let people ally CSMs and Daemons, then simply remove the ally rules in the 7th edition rulebook? That way they can be that money-grubbing, greedy, capitalist company that we all know Gamesworkshop to be (that was sarcasm, by the way). Why would the codices need the rules to disallow allies when, according to you, allies won't be allowed at all in the next rule set, all the while saying GW is trying to get all our moneyz? And to scream "it makes no sense!!" before you even have the codex in your hand is equally silly. Unless, of course, you speak fluent German.

Yeah, I'm with you, I don't see it as GW trying to squash allies. More than likely, they are trying to squash abusing the allies system. I personally don't see a problem with CSM not being able to join/lead a CD unit and vice versa. Its more to do with the army synergy then power-gaming the system. CSM offer small units of durable, ranged firepower to CD's frail but very large and extremely hard hitting assault units. Its similar to how IG work well with loyal marines, IG bring the cheap bullet stoppers and objective squaters, while Marines provide the elite hitting power.

I haven't seen anyone mention that the banners' special abilities can only be used once per game. I really don't see why when csm get banners that are (in most cases) better and their effects last the whole game.

They do not have the option to go full DS.

So X% reserve/DS rule applies as mormal?

It was mentioned a couple days ago. It wouldn't be Chaosy(tm) to have them always in effect!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:

They do not have the option to go full DS.

So X% reserve/DS rule applies as normal?

Correct.

Well, time to pack away daemons and break out the marines... That's how desperate it's become.

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Well, time to pack away daemons and break out the marines... That's how desperate it's become.

In a meta filled with triple helldrakes and MEQ armies showing poorly in competitive play....

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Well, time to pack away daemons and break out the marines... That's how desperate it's become.

Would you care to explain your view on this one?(Or sell me your nurgle)

^^ interested in the logic too.

What do you see as the problem with new Daemons?

Grimnarsmate has been spewing the doom and gloom for the last couple days. I wouldn't pay too much attention.

Still though, I'd like to hear 1-2 coherrent anti-Daemon points if possible.

Have you any Grim?

I dont play them myself but have always been very interested in them.
Perhaps now is the time?

 pretre wrote:
Grimnarsmate has been spewing the doom and gloom for the last couple days. I wouldn't pay too much attention.

I'll pay attention to anything that gets me cheap daemons.

Well, we have become a horde army with good CC, but if we lose combat we start to fold. Another build is psychic tzeentch. A sixth of the shooting is shut down before you start to crunch the numbers, then any eldar or space wolves will shut a lot of what's left down. plus one bad warpstorm roll could leave your army with almost no save! What's even more annoying is I've just spent over £150 on my tzeentch daemon army and they've just been hit for 6 with the nerf bat, which is why I might be exaggerating a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I made 1 negative point earlier on, not exactly spewing the doom and gloom.

Ah, that sucks. The screamer/flamer rules were bound to change though, so can't really knock the book for that.

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Well, we have become a horde army with good CC, but if we lose combat we start to fold.

Or you lose a couple models and hold. You are still fearless, you just lose/gain/poof.

plus one bad warpstorm roll could leave your army with almost no save!

Or hit every unit in the enemy army with a large blast (on a 6).

What's even more annoying is I've just spent over £150 on my tzeentch daemon army and they've just been hit for 6 with the nerf bat, which is why I might be exaggerating a bit.

Aha. There's the rub. Never buy a big army right before they are rebuilt.

Probably shouldn't have banked on obviously overpowered rules then.

Ah c'mon Skar, hes expressed his counter points, no need to snipe.

Everyones point of view is valid as they see it.

You're right, I edited my post to be more constructive.

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
What's even more annoying is I've just spent over £150 on my tzeentch daemon army and they've just been hit for 6 with the nerf bat, which is why I might be exaggerating a bit.

Its ok man, sell em again or shelf em. I have first hand witnessed the turn around with several of my armies. My Necrons went from OP to crap with 5th ed.... then the new dex breathed major life back into the immortal robots. Same went with my slaanesh daemons, 4th ed Rending was even more vicious than it is now but with 5th my 150+ slaanesh daemon army sat on the shelf to slowly get fully painted and (for the most part) collect dust. I dont have the new dex in hand yet but from what I have read my sexy daemons will once again see light.

What I am saying is your investment may have been pre mature but in the long term you will likely be ahead of the game when another set of rule changes comes down the pipe if you just are patient.

EDIT:
Not saying slaanesh were horrible in 5th... there were just much better choices as far as daemons were concerned.

Weird... auto double post.

I did the same, The tracking number is FedEx

unfortunately my tracking number shows it left Memphis thursday morning and has had no activity since :(

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Well, we have become a horde army with good CC, but if we lose combat we start to fold. Another build is psychic tzeentch. A sixth of the shooting is shut down before you start to crunch the numbers, then any eldar or space wolves will shut a lot of what's left down. plus one bad warpstorm roll could leave your army with almost no save! What's even more annoying is I've just spent over £150 on my tzeentch daemon army and they've just been hit for 6 with the nerf bat, which is why I might be exaggerating a bit.

Heralds prevent instability, do they not? You still have issues of people sniping them out (and their crummy invulnerable saves will not hold up well) but it's not the most terrible situation - at least now you can pull off shenanigans like S9 Horrors depending on the loci you choose.

The psychic shooting is going to be a huge problem, especially if your meta already features lots of allied Farseers/Eldrad or Rune Priests. Deny the Witch isn't exactly the most reliable defense anyways (even shooting at psyker units like Grey Knights). It is a big problem though, no one is going to deny that - and is a signficant 'balance' factor for Tzeentch shooty lists. However, at least based on my reading you could do the whole "1 Horror peeking out channeling the entire units psychic attacks per turn" which is a bit but runes of warding and Space Wolves are already

Tzeentch screamers got nerfed pretty bad, but they may need a FAQ regarding trading attacks for warp jaws because right now they get very little advantage for charging at stuff if they have to trade 4 attacks for 1 jaw. Flamers are also nerfed to hell considering their cost ($ and points) so maybe we can get a FAQ once sales of those models grinds to a halt. But otherwise they are not terrible and still useful in some cases considering their mobility and the price you would pay for jump or jet bike troops of similar capabilities.

Still, like I've said before, I don't understand the excitement for daemons as primary detachment. They are a finesse army (which is code for "underpowered") with more units that are not total garbage like the old codex, but almost no standout units either (and no, you're probably not going to be able to claim Aegis cover for your Nurgle Soulgrinders unless you are modeling for advantage).

Unfortunately, heralds do not prevent instability.

Even worse, if your herald and his unit lose combat and you roll a double 6.. boom both gone.

 Shandara wrote:
Unfortunately, heralds do not prevent instability.

Even worse, if your herald and his unit lose combat and you roll a double 6.. boom both gone.

*Honest Trailers Voice on*

Because you weren't just gak enough, you can lose 200 points of models for taking one wound. Seriously, I'm not even joking, Phil must have been really high at the time.

At the moment if I do end up taking daemons it'll probaly be a 20 daemmonette squad with a herald with the leadership test power, allied to my guard army w/ a psyker battle squad with a telekenises primaris.

Or you could have one guy survive and get the whole squad back. That's daemons for you.

 pretre wrote:
Or you could have one guy survive and get the whole squad back. That's daemons for you.

In all respects, this doesn't change the fact that Daemons have a massive hurdle in the form of their own special rules. The chance that I'll gain my models back doesn't mean I've got a chart which will cause damage to my own army, randomised wargear and incredibly poor saves.

6+ for a Juggernaut? Jesus Christ they better have a 3++.....

 Shandara wrote:
Unfortunately, heralds do not prevent instability.

Even worse, if your herald and his unit lose combat and you roll a double 6.. boom both gone.

Yes but,

If your herald and his unit lose combat and you roll a double 1.. Boom squad at full strength again

considering Daemons leadership, I have not put the math to it but it seems to me you are more likely to get a positive result (pass leadership OR return wounds) than you are to get a negative one ( fail leadership or lose all) The full return or full wipe have the same chance, while you will be passing leadership more often than not. Unless you lose by 3+ wounds which CAN happen but does not seem highly likely. Considering you do not do something tactically stupid with them.

Has the leadership changed? I havent seen anything about it.

Edit: never mind

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Has the leadership changed? I havent seen anything about it.

Yes, most basic units are LD7.

Which is an instant loss is most forms of combat.

Down across the board. HQ 8 or 9, everyone else is 7, except Furies which are 2 cause... well... who knows.

 blood reaper wrote:
The chance that I'll gain my models back doesn't mean I've got a chart which will cause damage to my own army, randomised wargear and incredibly poor saves.

The chart also potentially does damage to every unit in the enemy army while only doing damage to some units in your army. The Randomized Wargear all allow you to pick a primaris and I haven't seen the saves.

Four Tzeentch Lvl2 psyker Heralds following around my CSM forces handing out Prescience like candy looks hard to resist That alone is pretty sweet.

Well, better go big, or go home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And hope for no double 6s

 pretre wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
The chance that I'll gain my models back doesn't mean I've got a chart which will cause damage to my own army, randomised wargear and incredibly poor saves.

The chart also potentially does damage to every unit in the enemy army while only doing damage to some units in your army. The Randomized Wargear all allow you to pick a primaris and I haven't seen the saves.

At the same rate it will damage an Undivided army. It's a poor design choice, and should really only apply to rolls of 1 or 2 on a D6 chart. Yes, it allows you to pick a Primaris weapon, but it's still a big disadvantage when other armies can pick their wargear. Most of the saves are 5++, while most Khorne units have a 6+ 5++.

TzeentchNet wrote:
Four Tzeentch Lvl2 psyker Heralds following around my CSM forces handing out Prescience like candy looks hard to resist That alone is pretty sweet.

You can only stack the 4 for 1 if Daemons is your Primary Detachment.

 blood reaper wrote:
At the same rate it will damage an Undivided army. It's a poor design choice, and should really only apply to rolls of 1 or 2 on a D6 chart.

Wrong.

No matter the composition of your 'undivided army', less than 100% of the models in it are of one god (by definition). While your opponent always has 100% of the models in his army consisting of 'enemy' models to you. You always potentially hurt more in your opponent's army than in yours unless you have a mono god army and roll the one that hurts your god. Even then, there are 3 rolls that don't hurt your army and hurt your opponent.

Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

You can only stack the 4 for 1 if Daemons is your Primary Detachment.

How does that work. Do you go back to the 2 for 1 if they are allies?

 Shandara wrote:
Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

Allow you to save against the couple of attacks that disallow invlun saves I guess.

 Shandara wrote:
Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

Help if your invul gets taken away for some reason...

TzeentchNet wrote:

You can only stack the 4 for 1 if Daemons is your Primary Detachment.

How does that work. Do you go back to the 2 for 1 if they are allies?

Based on my reading, if they're allies you get 1 HQ, be it Herald, Greater Daemon, or Daemon Prince. Choose wisely!

 pretre wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

Help if your invul gets taken away for some reason...

Which will probably also taken away, being that most weapons are AP5, and even at negative AP it's a 1 in 6 chance.

Can someone remind me why Daemons have the survival rate of a Grot?

Chances of something that takes away invuls and normal armor saves? Pretty low. Keep grinding though.

 blood reaper wrote:
Can someone remind me why Daemons have the survival rate of a Grot?

Why is a 9 pt daemon infinitely more survivable than a Hive Tyrant against krak missiles?

Let's tone down the hyperbole; it's not doing much for the conversation.

Another Allied question:

Any chance CD bringing Divination to CSM lists will result in more people using the Hades Autocannon on the Helldrake instead of the blaeflamer? Four twin-linked S8 shots at BS 3 is not bad at all in dealing with enemy flyers, if you can keep your drake in range to get the blessing.

That's a lot of IFs when it is good the way it is.

Prescience on Forgefiends would seem to be easier to accomplish if you wanted to go the machine-buffing route.

I might sit this army out. I usually buy roughly 750-1k points for small games, but I'm not sure if I want to with this army.

Something about them says they will be a dark horse. Something else though tells me the Phil Kelly was high when writing this.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:

On topic: Why do people think it's obvious that GW is leaving the door open to get rid of allies in 7th edition by saying in 6th edition books that things can't ally. By your logic, GW's ploy is to get people to buy multiple armies. So wouldn't it make more sense to let people ally CSMs and Daemons, then simply remove the ally rules in the 7th edition rulebook? That way they can be that money-grubbing, greedy, capitalist company that we all know Gamesworkshop to be (that was sarcasm, by the way). Why would the codices need the rules to disallow allies when, according to you, allies won't be allowed at all in the next rule set, all the while saying GW is trying to get all our moneyz? And to scream "it makes no sense!!" before you even have the codex in your hand is equally silly. Unless, of course, you speak fluent German.

Yeah, I'm with you, I don't see it as GW trying to squash allies. More than likely, they are trying to squash abusing the allies system. I personally don't see a problem with CSM not being able to join/lead a CD unit and vice versa. Its more to do with the army synergy then power-gaming the system. CSM offer small units of durable, ranged firepower to CD's frail but very large and extremely hard hitting assault units. Its similar to how IG work well with loyal marines, IG bring the cheap bullet stoppers and objective squaters, while Marines provide the elite hitting power.

Only, with marines, you can add your IC to blobs of guardsmen, to give them rules that should really only be applied to elite units (ATSKNF and feel no pain, for instance)

But for chaos, we can't add our elite guy's (Chaos) to our cheap hordes (Daemons)

 Sephyr wrote:
Another Allied question:

Any chance CD bringing Divination to CSM lists will result in more people using the Hades Autocannon on the Helldrake instead of the blaeflamer? Four twin-linked S8 shots at BS 3 is not bad at all in dealing with enemy flyers, if you can keep your drake in range to get the blessing.

The ease of access to Divination is really pretty awesome. Toss Prescience at Seekers for huge numbers of rerolls, or Noise Marines for the same, or even just Oblits for twin-linked Assault Cannon/Lascannon/Multimelta action. I can see how Horrors would benefit from that, too, but they're almost a secondary consideration in this case.

 blood reaper wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

Help if your invul gets taken away for some reason...

Which will probably also taken away, being that most weapons are AP5, and even at negative AP it's a 1 in 6 chance.

Can someone remind me why Daemons have the survival rate of a Grot?

Last I checked grots don't have ++ saves, or are strength 5 on the charge with AP 3 weapons, or have rending, or can get 2+ cover saves...

 Janthkin wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
Another Allied question:

Any chance CD bringing Divination to CSM lists will result in more people using the Hades Autocannon on the Helldrake instead of the blaeflamer? Four twin-linked S8 shots at BS 3 is not bad at all in dealing with enemy flyers, if you can keep your drake in range to get the blessing.

The ease of access to Divination is really pretty awesome. Toss Prescience at Seekers for huge numbers of rerolls, or Noise Marines for the same, or even just Oblits for twin-linked Assault Cannon/Lascannon/Multimelta action. I can see how Horrors would benefit from that, too, but they're almost a secondary consideration in this case.

Picking nits, but you can get permanent Prescience on Seekers with a Herald for 30 pts and no Psychic tests.

I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

Even if the codex is garbage, I am still going to continue with my love of all things chaos. Man, it's just too fun to paint daemons to just let em go. And the troops are some of the cheapest models to buy, so there's that too. I need me some nurgling swarms next.

 airmang wrote:
I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

Hot damn! Looks like Necrons just lost their monopoly on tank busting...

 airmang wrote:
I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

God I hope this is true. And more, if it's also for beasts of nurgle.

So much happy if this is true

But ill find out tomorrow when i buy the book from my local store

GOT THE BOOK TODAY, it seems solid, I love all the hate and stuff i have read through 66 pages.. before the book even came out or any serious game play of the army could be given as evidence. how much is hater and how much is from solid tourney winning, smart players. I wonder.

Reading through the book, it looks solid. Some thing got hit/nerfed hard, but some things are just "woah".

So Daemons got nerfed, no more point and click. Big woop, IMHO its now like playing chess instead of checkers. And if you look close and find the right combinations its pro-level chess. this book is far from bottom tier. Its pretty solid.

The one thing i just dont understand is the bloodcrushers. I can see the T being reduced ( i guess). But 6+ save? No better armor save on these behemoths? And Why 6+, when will you ever use it? They still have the Daemon special rule giving em a 5++. but i thought for sure juggies would still have a 3+

(and yes plague swords glance armor on a 6)

Anyone read the Fantasy book yet? How big is the nerf for Daemons there?

Evileyes wrote:

 airmang wrote:
I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

God I hope this is true. And more, if it's also for beasts of nurgle.

So much happy if this is true

But ill find out tomorrow when i buy the book from my local store

Its true. Its an effect on all nurgle melee swords. Beasts dont get it.

Tsilber wrote:

The one thing i just dont understand is the bloodcrushers. I can see the T being reduced ( i guess). But 6+ save? No better armor save on these behemoths? And Why 6+, when will you ever use it? They still have the Daemon special rule giving em a 5++. but i thought for sure juggies would still have a 3+

Wait... dont tell me GW was to lazy to print a different entry/statline from the entry they put in the fantasy book? LOL, i usually dont indulge in GW hate.. but thats Fookin lazy...

Makes sense in fantasy cause you get boosts from armor and mounts, right?

Yeah, it should be +2 for mounted. Should be 4+5++ effectively I believe.

Some Khorne Daemons have a 6+ Armour save because you can reduce a Daemons Invulnerable Save to '-' with the Grimoire of True Names and the result on the Warp Storm Chart.

This book is FILLED with "need a FAQ" stuff because RAW is very vague in parts (e.g. the -1 Ld for Psykers within 12" of a Fiend could be interpreted as stacking). Which might make them useful, as right now they are pretty garbage.

Only Plagueswords get the Touch of Rust (glance on 6) rule.

The Problem with this book its that Deamons are supposed to be dangerous and mighty, beings from another dimension.

The last dex was partialy right in that, even if it was dull.

The new dex offers new things, new rules etc, but it still wants to be an "semi-elite" army that wants to become a horde army.

its a codex that in short, doesn't know what he want to be when he gets grown up.

And having ELITE units with a 6+ save for 45pts, thats the cherry on the cake of WTF...

GW wanted to prevent some of the brokeness of 4th Ed dex?

They made it worse...12pts Slaanesh cavalery with flank and acute sense that runs +3"?...

In the previous dex a unit of 10 of them was allready an hassle, and they where like 20pts a piece, but now?, they are so dirt cheap, that people think of taking them by droves !!

And once again they failed to make a decent balance for the 4 factions, the problem is that in essence they have to design 4 armies in one book, but the last time that something like this worked was in 3th Ed...

And so Tzeentch end up with giving other armies free FnP, Khorne give free Killpoints with models so frail that if a grot sneeze at it, they die, and for the price of a TH/SS Termi.

I'm definatly disgusted to play them as an army, and i'm not even sure that i will take them has allies, because points spent on them, are less points spent on my CSM, wich for the moment does pretty good, even though i play a themed WE army...

I really need some HARDCORE testing, and serious thoughs about this, but i'm not sold on them...

I usually am of the optimistic kind, but right now...

TzeentchNet wrote:
This book is FILLED with "need a FAQ" stuff because RAW is very vague in parts (e.g. the -1 Ld for Psykers within 12" of a Fiend could be interpreted as stacking). Which might make them useful, as right now they are pretty garbage.

Only Plagueswords get the Touch of Rust (glance on 6) rule.

It does count as stacking. in the Dark eldar book for example: It says while within 12" of 1 or more Grisly trophies (or torment grenade launchers).. anyway it says while within 12" of 1 or more. In this book it does not. Now im not saying GW might of messed it up, but rules as read is not vague. It is what it is... eat it psykers.

(It says BTW: any psyker within 12" of A fiend of slaanesh have -1 penalty to leadership... if you are within 12" of 5... You have -5 leadership when taking the psy test, doens't seem vague as written)

Oh, for some hilarious brokenness check out Kairo's Staff of Tomorrow. As written you can force your opponent to reroll a single die and prevent other rerolls from Twin-Linked and Preferred Enemy

Note: And that forced reroll can be for a result that was a success

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
The Problem with this book its that Deamons are supposed to be dangerous and mighty, beings from another dimension.

The last dex was partialy right in that, even if it was dull.

The new dex offers new things, new rules etc, but it still wants to be an "semi-elite" army that wants to become a horde army.

its a codex that in short, doesn't know what he want to be when he gets grown up.

And having ELITE units with a 6+ save for 45pts, thats the cherry on the cake of WTF...

GW wanted to prevent some of the brokeness of 4th Ed dex?

They made it worse...12pts Slaanesh cavalery with flank and acute sense that runs +3"?...

In the previous dex a unit of 10 of them was allready an hassle, and they where like 20pts a piece, but now?, they are so dirt cheap, that people think of taking them by droves !!

And once again they failed to make a decent balance for the 4 factions, the problem is that in essence they have to design 4 armies in one book, but the last time that something like this worked was in 3th Ed...

And so Tzeentch end up with giving other armies free FnP, Khorne give free Killpoints with models so frail that if a grot sneeze at it, they die, and for the price of a TH/SS Termi.

I'm definatly disgusted to play them as an army, and i'm not even sure that i will take them has allies, because points spent on them, are less points spent on my CSM, wich for the moment does pretty good, even though i play a themed WE army...

I really need some HARDCORE testing, and serious thoughs about this, but i'm not sold on them...

I usually am of the optimistic kind, but right now...

Im not sure if you are giving the book props or hating on it. You said tzeench is terrible because it gives a FNP, but then say seekers are over powered.

but on those 2 comments i have to humbly disagree...

FNP from Tzeench is rare and even if the unit does get it. its on a 6+. Have at it.

The Seekers outflanking with acute senses is far from the most broken thing in this book... they have rending going for them. Other then that what are they gonna do, blow on you?. Plus they wont even get in combat until at best turn 3. Good luck being effective in any tourney. I guess playing a 6 turn game they will have their bonus. But if you are playing against them, put your durable units on the egde, a flamer on over watch. A few tanks.. Shoot the be-jeezus out of their T3 steeds once they show up.

The Book is still solid and scary... again it just came out. No one has played this army well enough, no "suggestive list", no cookie cutter. So its natural for people to just hate on it. But its not terrible, far from it. Its still scary and pretty powerful IMHO.

One quick note: seeker of Slaanesh get +6 to their run roll.

 airmang wrote:
I've not seen it mentioned, but did anyone notice that plaguebearers and plague drones auto glance vehicles on an armor penetration roll of 6?

Edit : strange double post


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsilber wrote:
The Seekers outflanking with acute senses is far from the most broken thing in this book... they have rending going for them. Other then that what are they gonna do, blow on you?. Plus they wont even get in combat until at best turn 3. Good luck being effective in any tourney. I guess playing a 6 turn game they will have their bonus. But if you are playing against them, put your durable units on the egde, a flamer on over watch. A few tanks.. Shoot the be-jeezus out of their T3 steeds once they show up.

I've been doing a lot of comparing seekers to daemonettes.
- Seekers are 33% more expensive.
- They are not troops.
- They have one extra attack.
- They can move -much- faster. (Daemonettes are going ~13.5" a turn, Seekers are going ~22.5") That's awesome for objective holding.
- They have a much bigger footprint as their bases are much larger.
So with a unit of 20 seekers your looking at 240 points. That's not bad for 20 models! You run them up the sides of the board so you can threaten anything you want to on turn 2. If they get shot to bits, just run the remainders back to deny the KP.

Tsilber wrote:
The Book is still solid and scary... again it just came out. No one has played this army well enough, no "suggestive list", no cookie cutter.

True. There might be another 'helldrake' hidden somewhere that we don't see yet. Only time will tell.

My inital thoughts are that slaanesh and nurgle got the most love. Horror spam lists might be good, but I'm worried their a one trick pony. Either way Ill have to expand my daemon army to match these new rules -- something GW was likely hoping for.

Tsilber wrote:


FNP from Tzeench is rare and even if the unit does get it. its on a 6+. Have at it. .

Yeah, excepte that this is stacking...

Turn 1-2 shoot a unit of Marines, they pass their test gets FnP 6+, shoot with another unit on them, they pass it a second time, oh look, because we allready had FnP, we get +1 on the roll!, do this several times, Oh look!!! a FNP2+ Marine squad...

it will be rare,yes i know, but i've allready seen guys exploding Reaver titans with a melta and making all the rolls needed to destroy all the Structure points and make an Cataclismic explosion..., so its a scenario that i'm not putting behind, because i know that it will happen.

Again, stupidest rule i've ever seen...

Being a CC army and having your best CC troops, at least those that are dedicated to it, only have 1A?, common sens?, nope not found here.

And there is so much more that just screams of desperation in this book that i can bairly(bearly?) look at it, without having the same feeling of pity that Signourey Weaver had for her clone in Alien Ressurection...

I will need some heavy convincing( or money) to play this has a full fledged army, and even has allies i'm not sure.

And here i though Zerkers where worse, but man, this is just taking it to a whole new level...

The stacking Feel no pain is solid i guess, i see your point on that... but 6d6 shots from the horror unit and 6d6 shots from the herald in the unit. Well you should wipe units prior to them getting to much of a feel no pain.

As for playing it as a full army, well thats your opinion and you are certainly entitles to it.

Ill for one, look forward to the combos this book is begging people to figure out and use tactfully. (is tactfully even a word? )

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I will need some heavy convincing( or money) to play this has a full fledged army, and even has allies i'm not sure.

And here i though Zerkers where worse, but man, this is just taking it to a whole new level...

Sorry to hear that. I'll be happy to take your daemons off your hands for 20% retail plus shipping.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Turn 1-2 shoot a unit of Marines, they pass their test gets FnP 6+, shoot with another unit on them, they pass it a second time, oh look, because we allready had FnP, we get +1 on the roll!, do this several times, Oh look!!! a FNP2+ Marine squad....

On a more serious note, you need to focus fire. 20 horrors plus herald will kill ~4.6 MEQ. Focus two horror squads onto one MEQ squad and you can put them out of your mind. It takes multiple turns to get a higher FNP, so just focus fire.

Grrr. Why can I not buy the book on itunes yet?

Are they really going to make me wait until midnight in my timezone to purchase this?

Very annoying.

Switched from preorder to "new release" on GW website.

Its past midnight in jolly o' England

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Tsilber wrote:


FNP from Tzeench is rare and even if the unit does get it. its on a 6+. Have at it. .

Yeah, excepte that this is stacking...

Turn 1-2 shoot a unit of Marines, they pass their test gets FnP 6+, shoot with another unit on them, they pass it a second time, oh look, because we allready had FnP, we get +1 on the roll!, do this several times, Oh look!!! a FNP2+ Marine squad.....

Not exactly. They only roll once per phase for Warpflame. So even if 3 units cast tzeentch powers at one unit in a shooting phase, they only take 1 Warpflame test. Best thing to do is just focus on the squad with multiple units and wipe it out.

labmouse42 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I will need some heavy convincing( or money) to play this has a full fledged army, and even has allies i'm not sure.

And here i though Zerkers where worse, but man, this is just taking it to a whole new level...

Sorry to hear that. I'll be happy to take your daemons off your hands for 20% retail plus shipping.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Turn 1-2 shoot a unit of Marines, they pass their test gets FnP 6+, shoot with another unit on them, they pass it a second time, oh look, because we allready had FnP, we get +1 on the roll!, do this several times, Oh look!!! a FNP2+ Marine squad....

On a more serious note, you need to focus fire. 20 horrors plus herald will kill ~4.6 MEQ. Focus two horror squads onto one MEQ squad and you can put them out of your mind. It takes multiple turns to get a higher FNP, so just focus fire.

Personnaly i rather burn them, recollect the plastic and mold new modeles with it.

And even so, i play exclusifly Khorne, i play fluff and themed armies always been Khorne for the last 15yrs, so i won't switch back to Horrors, so you want to ask, why even get angry over this, because, the fact that i don't play them, doesn't mean that i do not care for the book as a whole.

airmang wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Tsilber wrote:


FNP from Tzeench is rare and even if the unit does get it. its on a 6+. Have at it. .

Yeah, excepte that this is stacking...

Turn 1-2 shoot a unit of Marines, they pass their test gets FnP 6+, shoot with another unit on them, they pass it a second time, oh look, because we allready had FnP, we get +1 on the roll!, do this several times, Oh look!!! a FNP2+ Marine squad.....

Not exactly. They only roll once per phase for Warpflame. So even if 3 units cast tzeentch powers at one unit in a shooting phase, they only take 1 Warpflame test. Best thing to do is just focus on the squad with multiple units and wipe it out.

Well, for once, they where less stupid that i would have though, but even so, when i read the full rule for this, the little line at the bottom" Chais can be fickle" nearly made me outburst in rage and tear the book in 2, fickle okay..., so now they decide to bring fluff in rules, but still Letters are A1 and Crushers armor6...

From what I've seen, the thing that appeals most about the codex is the Warp Storm table actually making the first serious attempt by GW to discourage MSUs. The table essentially has a 50% chance of generating a BS1 artillery attack for every enemy squad on the field.

RogueRegault wrote:
From what I've seen, the thing that appeals most about the codex is the Warp Storm table actually making the first serious attempt by GW to discourage MSUs.

Yeah I really don't think they think about that sort've thing when they design rules like that.

They're all about "forging a narrative" and "making games more randomcinematic!".

I honestly think that if you asked them what they thought of MSU's you'd get a litany of "Huh?" and "What are those?".

yeah.

RogueRegault wrote:
From what I've seen, the thing that appeals most about the codex is the Warp Storm table actually making the first serious attempt by GW to discourage MSUs.

The chance of playing Kill point missions??

Panic...

is a mandatory champion required for units now?
But yeah, as a word bearer player the sounds of a cheap daemons are definatly going be able to pull off a meatsheild daemons. Now i just need the book to figure out what im going to do.

 Panic wrote:
yeah.

RogueRegault wrote:
From what I've seen, the thing that appeals most about the codex is the Warp Storm table actually making the first serious attempt by GW to discourage MSUs.

The chance of playing Kill point missions??

Panic...

Not sure I follow. I think they were referring to the fact that if you play against a Daemon player with a MSU build you are far more likely to take damage from warpstorm due to having to roll more attempts.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Anyone read the Fantasy book yet? How big is the nerf for Daemons there?

From the few rumors thus far, it looks like a giant clusterfeth.

We have some horribly undercosted new options that will be sure of turning up in every single tourny list and becoming the new "most hated" things in the game. (LoC w/Wand of Whimsy & 2-3x Skullcannons)
And other options are simply nerfed into the ground so bad they're all but unplayable. (Bloodcrushers for some reason, got nerfed?! Welcome to the game's worst MC!)

It's going to be a power book still, likely as strong as or slightly above Ogres. But there isn't much wiggle room for variation in power builds.

Overall I'm pretty sure we'll be maintaining the trend of "Daemons ruined Fantasy" for at least another edition!

Experiment 626 wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Anyone read the Fantasy book yet? How big is the nerf for Daemons there?

From the few rumors thus far, it looks like a giant clusterfeth.

We have some horribly undercosted new options that will be sure of turning up in every single tourny list and becoming the new "most hated" things in the game. (LoC w/Wand of Whimsy & 2-3x Skullcannons)
And other options are simply nerfed into the ground so bad they're all but unplayable. (Bloodcrushers for some reason, got nerfed?! Welcome to the game's worst MC!)

It's going to be a power book still, likely as strong as or slightly above Ogres. But there isn't much wiggle room for variation in power builds.

Overall I'm pretty sure we'll be maintaining the trend of "Daemons ruined Fantasy" for at least another edition!

Odd that we have so much info for 40K daemons but I've only seen a few scans from fantasy. Really odd considering how powerful they are there, so you'd think people would want to know more.

iTunes codex now available for download

Yet another reason to own an iPad. Mine is downloading now.

Cyvash wrote:
is a mandatory champion required for units now?
But yeah, as a word bearer player the sounds of a cheap daemons are definatly going be able to pull off a meatsheild daemons. Now i just need the book to figure out what im going to do.

Champions aren't required and they dont even boost LD.

clively wrote:
Yet another reason to own an iPad. Mine is downloading now.

Me too, huge file.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Panic wrote:
The chance of playing Kill point missions??

Panic...

You'd think we were still playing 5E because kill points show up in every 3 round tournament I've played in 6E even though it's only 1 of 6 in the BRB

Since the codex is now officially out, time to lock the thread?

How is Khorne looking in the new book?

Download failed at 90%+ What a piece of crap. Now its downloading super slow...

Looks like something is awry with the iPad versions. Can't download and a message appears saying the item is no longer available.

 cincydooley wrote:
How is Khorne looking in the new book?

People who'd heard early rumors were whining that they were underpowered, but the Dutch guy on 4chan who had an early copy played Khorne as his second playthrough with the codex and tabled a Grey Knights list by the second turn.

Granted it wasn't a WAAC Grey Knights list, but it was still a strong performance.


The best things about Khorne seem to be the ease with which heralds can be made into challenge assassins, the icons that turn assaults into 6+d6", and cheap powerweapons.


People are complaining about Bloodcrushers losing toughness, but their added speed makes them easy to run up the board and deepstrike troops next to an objective. (This goes for most FA in the codex as well.)

Also, skullcannon will probably be a must-take in most armies since it basically acts as offensive grenades for whichever units assault their target.

Cinematic download!

 airmang wrote:
Looks like something is awry with the iPad versions. Can't download and a message appears saying the item is no longer available.

My re-download is still going, albeit super slow (estimates 1.5 hours left)

RogueRegault wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
How is Khorne looking in the new book?

People who'd heard early rumors were whining that they were underpowered, but the Dutch guy on 4chan who had an early copy played Khorne as his second playthrough with the codex and tabled a Grey Knights list by the second turn.

Granted it wasn't a WAAC Grey Knights list, but it was still a strong performance.


The best things about Khorne seem to be the ease with which heralds can be made into challenge assassins, the icons that turn assaults into 6+d6", and cheap powerweapons.


People are complaining about Bloodcrushers losing toughness, but their added speed makes them easy to run up the board and deepstrike troops next to an objective. (This goes for most FA in the codex as well.)

Also, skullcannon will probably be a must-take in most armies since it basically acts as offensive grenades for whichever units assault their target.

Khorne lists have always done well against GK (well, better than other mono-god lists) due to the 2++ save against force weapons and in this new codex, 2+ deny the witch which make Dark Excommunication almost a non-issue. I'd like to see how new Daemons codex doee against GK lists specifically tailored to beat them, since most WAAC GK lists don't include Strike Squads, Dreadknights, or libbys with Dark Excommunication, the three units which mess up Daemons the most...

Damn you GW, now my 2nd download froze and I can't restart it....

I don't think that Games Workshop has anything to do with your network connection, duder.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I don't think that Games Workshop has anything to do with your network connection, duder.

You'd think with 2500 posts you'd learn to keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about... But then this is dakka and you obviously feel the need to comment for the sake of hearing yourself comment. And I know GW has nothing to do with Apple's app store connectivity issues. Since I'm not the only one having them (as evidenced in messages above) and I've been watching my network traffic, pretty sure it's not my network connection, duder.

punchdub wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I don't think that Games Workshop has anything to do with your network connection, duder.

You'd think with 2500 posts you'd learn to keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about... But then this is dakka and you obviously feel the need to comment for the sake of hearing yourself comment. And I know GW has nothing to do with Apple's app store connectivity issues. Since I'm not the only one having them (as evidenced in messages above) and I've been watching my network traffic, pretty sure it's not my network connection, duder.

Wow, calm down bro...

You'd think with 2500 posts you'd learn to keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about... But then this is dakka and you obviously feel the need to comment for the sake of hearing yourself comment. And I know GW has nothing to do with Apple's app store connectivity issues. Since I'm not the only one having them (as evidenced in messages above) and I've been watching my network traffic, pretty sure it's not my network connection, duder.

Damn you GW, now my 2nd download froze and I can't restart it....

Except, you know, you explicitly blamed GW. Unless you actually didn't and just phrased yourself very, very poorly. Either way, it appears your jimmies are quite rustled.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

RogueRegault wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
How is Khorne looking in the new book?

People who'd heard early rumors were whining that they were underpowered, but the Dutch guy on 4chan who had an early copy played Khorne as his second playthrough with the codex and tabled a Grey Knights list by the second turn.

Granted it wasn't a WAAC Grey Knights list, but it was still a strong performance.


The best things about Khorne seem to be the ease with which heralds can be made into challenge assassins, the icons that turn assaults into 6+d6", and cheap powerweapons.


People are complaining about Bloodcrushers losing toughness, but their added speed makes them easy to run up the board and deepstrike troops next to an objective. (This goes for most FA in the codex as well.)

Also, skullcannon will probably be a must-take in most armies since it basically acts as offensive grenades for whichever units assault their target.

Khorne lists have always done well against GK (well, better than other mono-god lists) due to the 2++ save against force weapons and in this new codex, 2+ deny the witch which make Dark Excommunication almost a non-issue. I'd like to see how new Daemons codex doee against GK lists specifically tailored to beat them, since most WAAC GK lists don't include Strike Squads, Dreadknights, or libbys with Dark Excommunication, the three units which mess up Daemons the most...

I seem to remember one of the bits in the battle report was the Bloodthirster getting grounded by massed fire without taking a wound, and then killing the Dreadknight that charged it in melee.

To clarify, the GK army was Coteaz and an OXI as HQs, and mostly inq henchmen focused with some elite GK support. The GK's player lost because he couldn't pass his reserves roll for his stormraven carrying assault troops before the khorne player tore apart the rest of the army.

 RatBot wrote:

You'd think with 2500 posts you'd learn to keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about... But then this is dakka and you obviously feel the need to comment for the sake of hearing yourself comment. And I know GW has nothing to do with Apple's app store connectivity issues. Since I'm not the only one having them (as evidenced in messages above) and I've been watching my network traffic, pretty sure it's not my network connection, duder.

Damn you GW, now my 2nd download froze and I can't restart it....

Except, you know, you explicitly blamed GW. Unless you actually didn't and just phrased yourself very, very poorly. Either way, it appears your jimmies are quite rustled.

Except I didn't, you know... I cursed them. I didn't blame anyone if you want to have at the semantics of my post. Without regard to the download issue, I think GW is very worthy of a curse now and again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And with that, good night all.

punchdub wrote:

 RatBot wrote:

You'd think with 2500 posts you'd learn to keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about... But then this is dakka and you obviously feel the need to comment for the sake of hearing yourself comment. And I know GW has nothing to do with Apple's app store connectivity issues. Since I'm not the only one having them (as evidenced in messages above) and I've been watching my network traffic, pretty sure it's not my network connection, duder.

Damn you GW, now my 2nd download froze and I can't restart it....

Except, you know, you explicitly blamed GW. Unless you actually didn't and just phrased yourself very, very poorly. Either way, it appears your jimmies are quite rustled.

Except I didn't, you know... I cursed them. I didn't blame anyone if you want to have at the semantics of my post. Without regard to the download issue, I think GW is very worthy of a curse now and again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And with that, good night all.

Yikes dude. Go get some sleep. Maybe you've got a bit too much Khorne in you tonight.

punchdub wrote:
Without regard to the download issue, I think GW is very worthy of a curse now and again.

Anyone who argues that point is not going to get invited to my birthday party.

punchdub wrote:

 RatBot wrote:

You'd think with 2500 posts you'd learn to keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about... But then this is dakka and you obviously feel the need to comment for the sake of hearing yourself comment. And I know GW has nothing to do with Apple's app store connectivity issues. Since I'm not the only one having them (as evidenced in messages above) and I've been watching my network traffic, pretty sure it's not my network connection, duder.

Damn you GW, now my 2nd download froze and I can't restart it....

Except, you know, you explicitly blamed GW. Unless you actually didn't and just phrased yourself very, very poorly. Either way, it appears your jimmies are quite rustled.

Except I didn't, you know... I cursed them. I didn't blame anyone if you want to have at the semantics of my post. Without regard to the download issue, I think GW is very worthy of a curse now and again.

You did curse them, but the most obvious way to interpret your post is that the clause after the comma explains the first clause; "Dammit, Jim [I am cursing Jim], I'm a doctor, not an engineer! [he has asked a question (perhaps rhetorical) about something to do with engineering, which is why I cursed him at the start of my sentence]." When you phrase yourself poorly, don't get your undergarments in a bunch when you're not clearly understood.

Regardless, I certainly agree that GW is often worthy of curses.


EDIT: So that my post is at least somewhat on topic: I was right, the Burning Chariot looks much better when the flames are actually painted like flames, and I'm willing to eat crow on the Nurgle Flies; the full-sized pictures with better paintjobs make them look much better. They're still not my favorite models by any stretch, but they're not horrible.

RogueRegault wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

RogueRegault wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
How is Khorne looking in the new book?

People who'd heard early rumors were whining that they were underpowered, but the Dutch guy on 4chan who had an early copy played Khorne as his second playthrough with the codex and tabled a Grey Knights list by the second turn.

Granted it wasn't a WAAC Grey Knights list, but it was still a strong performance.


The best things about Khorne seem to be the ease with which heralds can be made into challenge assassins, the icons that turn assaults into 6+d6", and cheap powerweapons.


People are complaining about Bloodcrushers losing toughness, but their added speed makes them easy to run up the board and deepstrike troops next to an objective. (This goes for most FA in the codex as well.)

Also, skullcannon will probably be a must-take in most armies since it basically acts as offensive grenades for whichever units assault their target.

Khorne lists have always done well against GK (well, better than other mono-god lists) due to the 2++ save against force weapons and in this new codex, 2+ deny the witch which make Dark Excommunication almost a non-issue. I'd like to see how new Daemons codex doee against GK lists specifically tailored to beat them, since most WAAC GK lists don't include Strike Squads, Dreadknights, or libbys with Dark Excommunication, the three units which mess up Daemons the most...

I seem to remember one of the bits in the battle report was the Bloodthirster getting grounded by massed fire without taking a wound, and then killing the Dreadknight that charged it in melee.

To clarify, the GK army was Coteaz and an OXI as HQs, and mostly inq henchmen focused with some elite GK support. The GK's player lost because he couldn't pass his reserves roll for his stormraven carrying assault troops before the khorne player tore apart the rest of the army.

Hmm, so it seems it was mostly bad luck on the GK player's part, since the stormraven would've destroyed the Bloodthrister. DK charging it was also really stupid since DK doesn'e have psyk-out nades and BT is initiative 9. Henchman are typically good for TAC and WAAC lists, but against Daemons they're usually ho-hum.

And with that, I think we're done here.