No I actually wasn't whining at all, I'm not even sure if it's true until I see it, though I did like your humour.
It's just that a Tyrant is known to have another role, like giving bonuses and the sort where a Bloodthirster are known to be one of the ultimate close combat monsters of the game. It's not that much better than a Terminator with a Power Fist when it comes to destroying vehicles.
aliusexalio wrote: I was okay with it not being the best army. I was also aware that Tzeentch was more competitive. However right now I fail to see how Khorne is getting any kind of boost? Reroll charge distance? Great, with demonic assault I could deepstrike all over the board, now I've got to actually WALK my units of bloodletters across the table with their 3 TOUGHNESS and then charge into a space marine tactical squad which previously I had a chance of killing because of my AP3 hellblades (which was fair because I'd lose about half the squad in 1 shooting phase and the subsequent overwatch).... but now?
* You can still deepstrike them
* They are cheaper
* Hellblades are still AP3
* Overwatch can be mitigated. Look at CSM allies for 'dirge casters'. Look at the leaked slaanesh spells that deny overwatch.
aliusexalio wrote: And then 45 points for a T4 3 wounds bulletmagnet, aka Bloodcrusher? Which again only has an AP4 weapon? Why on earth even consider putting it in your army?
Bloodthirster, strenght 6????? I mean seriously, my army is now utter gak. I don't mind not being the best, I don't mind being the least best, but I sure mind being worthless.
* Have you seen the 40k book? Are you looking at Fantasy stats?
* If the CSM codex is any indication, bloodcrushers will be calvary . Moving 12" per turn is huge. T4 or T5, your going to be in assault on turn 2 - espeically with the reroll
* STR 6 is fine for a DP. Your still wounding most stuff on a 2+ and you can smash the rest. Your only at a STR 7 right now.
Personally I'm really excited about breaking out my bloodcrushers. I have two squads of them, and throwing 18 bloodcrushers down someones throat on turn 2 is very hard to deal with. Combined with chariots, beasts, etc, its a huge amount of fast-moving threats that have you have one turn to deal with. Noone is going to be shooting at your bloodletters because your bloodcrushers/chariots will be assaulting them on turn 2. That's a much bigger threat.
That kind of a rush army actually has a good chance to hard-counter necron nightsycthe spam. If you go first, you can be in assault at the top of turn 2, before the flyers come in. Unlike CSM, 20 bloodcrushers + chariots has enough dakka/choppa to kill wraiths, tabling the necron on top of 2. It will also be a hard counter to guard, or most other gunline units.
aliusexalio wrote: Oh to end my rant "none khorne DPs can buy Psyker levels up to level 3 at 25pts/lvl``
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chaospling wrote: Because the Bloodthirster model doesn't look like a S6 creature. It looks at least as tough as the Wraithlord for example and for those of us who want to see connections between rules and models this is just too weird. Yes I know that with Smash it gets to do S10 attacks but 3 S10 attacks from a Bloodthirster model which costs 250 points is still not right in my opinion.
Size of model should not be an indicator of stats. Look at the daemon prince model. Its the same height (without wings).
The bloodthirster is rearing back, while the DP is hunched over. Put them both in proper posture and they are the same height (or very close)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Well the way you stated it was that it was like you required X daemon to have X effect work on the field at all, so if you didn't have X, it didn't proc at all.
Read further down in my posts good sir You will see that was corrected. I'm not going to go back and edit previous posts accordingly.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: But anyways, I'll count the Base IC's by race (I'll count some MC's too)
That's a good amount of work you did, gotta give you credit, but your not being thorough. You should reflect this as a percentage, not just a list. 20 people die each year in the US from dog attacks. If I show you all 20 names it can be quite intimidating. Then you see that its 20 people out of 300,000,000+ and its much less so.
Here is your list given as an -out of- value.
CSM - 4 our of 14 (you can't plan on getting the gift of mutation, its not valid)
DE - 1 out of 12 (though you can give shadow fields)
Eldar - 6 our of 11
GK - 11 out of 15
IG - 0 out of 6
Necrons - 5 out of 10 (including overlords/destoyer lords)
Orks - 2 out of 9
Sisters - 1 out of 6
C:SM - 7 out of 19
BT - 6 out of 7
BA - 6 out of 12
DA - 6 out of 16
SW - 10 out of 13
Tau - 1 out of 5
Nids - 1 out of 6
So, out of 151 ICs, 72 (47.6%) have the capacity to wear 2+ armor. It looks like both of our statements were misleading.
"Most HQ's Have 2+ saves as well." is incorrect. 47.6% is not most.
"Few HQs have a 2+ save" is incorrect. 47.6% is not least.
So, out of 151 ICs, 72 (47.6%) have the capacity to wear 2+ armor. It looks like both of our statements were misleading.
Yes, but one needs to figure out what HQ's are mostly used. You're not for example, going to see Drahzar in most games, but you'll see a higher percentage of Belial and Azrael players.
Course that is Way to much work with hard to find data counter-points.
So, out of 151 ICs, 72 (47.6%) have the capacity to wear 2+ armor. It looks like both of our statements were misleading.
Yes, but one needs to figure out what HQ's are mostly used. You're not for example, going to see Drahzar in most games, but you'll see a higher percentage of Belial and Azrael players.
Course that is Way to much work with hard to find data counter-points.
Your best bet there is to look at your local tourney army lists.
There is a strong reason to have a 2+ save and use AP2 weapons. I recently wrote an article on the subject. Sadly, even with a 2+ save, Azrael is a punk because he is T4 without EW and wields an AP3 weapon. Belial is almost as bad unless he brings a thunder hammer/SS -- a combo I rarely see on him.
One would think that everyone would be bringing 2+ save ICs, but this is not the case. These are the ICs I faced in the past few games
- Sammael
- Ghaz (2+ save)
- Blood Angel Librarian
- Draigo (2+ save)
- Vect (shadow field, sorta a 2+ save)
- Daemon Prince
So in my meta I've been seeing about a 50% 2+ save rate for warlords. Everyone's meta may differ.
Not to get to much off topic, but I was running Abbadon against the majority of those ICs. Abbadon took their lunch money. Any time a warlord got near him, Abbadon went 'fruit ninja' on him.
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Shandara wrote: It's just wrong when Mephiston has the same strength as a Bloodthirster, though.
Or a generic space marine with an axe.
Maybe he was thinking of a power maul.
As previously stated,you cannot use the size of a model to judge stats. What about Epidemius? Look at him tower over those other models. His sword is as big as a space marine! He should be STR 5 or 6 right?
Regardless, Skull Taker was mostly meant to take on upper level champions.
I wouldn't have minded he kept rending on 4-6, but ID on only 6, but as it is it means he'll be far less effective then a standard Herald (Especially if the SC's can't take the various Locii powers)
As previously stated,you cannot use the size of a model to judge stats. What about Epidemius? Look at him tower over those other models. His sword is as big as a space marine! He should be STR 5 or 6 right?
He does have more attacks, he's also sitting on a palanquin which is giving him more wounds .
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Regardless, Skull Taker was mostly meant to take on upper level champions.
I wouldn't have minded he kept rending on 4-6, but ID on only 6, but as it is it means he'll be far less effective then a standard Herald (Especially if the SC's can't take the various Locii powers)
Is he? What makes you say that?
I play CSM and daemons as my main army. Any decent CSM player quickly learns how to play 'the challenge game'. Their not that hard to manipulate.
Throw your bloodthirster against the HQ, and use skulltaker to rack up squads or other weaker characters.
I am sad to see that skulltaker will no longer be my go-to for killing ICs. He was great when running fatecrusher because anyone without EW was usually gibbed by him. I guess the rumored drop in 40 points is supposed to take the sting off a bit, eh?
One thing to think about for Daemon AA. If its really bad in your area you can go with a quad gun, 3 soul grinders, greater daemon and a daemon prince in one FOC. Prescience is also good for turning any decent strength shooting unit into a poor man's AA unit.
I really like the sound of the new Daemons stuff, I look forward to playing them!
Now this is more Realms-of-Chaos-y which is what I wanted for CSM but didn't get. More movement towards mono-god armylists and some actual animosity stuff. Guess we know what part of Chaos that Fail Kelly spent more time working on!
airmang wrote:How does S6 really hurt a bloodthirster?
Base STR matters a lot when you're a FMC. Vector Strikes are probably Khorne Daemons' best hope for anti-air, and S6 won't cut it.
Soul Grinders
If Grinders hold on to their S10 AP1 Tongue, they would probably be the next best thing. But if their rumored cost is correct and they still have to choose between Tongue/Phlegm, then I would bet Grinders are quickly headed for overcosted/over-specialized territory. If that's not the case, and Grinders wind up being a cost-effective AA option, great, but that still feels pretty flavorless to me. Call me crazy, but my idea of 'cinematic' gameplay is a Bloodthirster chopping a Vendetta out of the sky. I will accept nothing less.
airmang wrote:How does S6 really hurt a bloodthirster?
Base STR matters a lot when you're a FMC. Vector Strikes are probably Khorne Daemons' best hope for anti-air, and S6 won't cut it.
Soul Grinders
Base STR 7 with an option for STR 8 with Unholy Might was great when you expected to fight a lot of multiple wound models with T4 that didn't have EW. Granted I can Smash, but I really don't see myself running that many MCs, which is what attracted me to the army in the first place.
The army has changed so much that it's almost like GW is removing Daemons from the game and replacing them with something else that uses the same models.
Do you have the Codex? Because other sources states that Hellblades are AP3.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. It's rumoured, that hellblades are dropping to ap4. And this would coincide well with the new vastly reduced points cost. I mean, 10 point's is cheaper than most armies pay just to -give- something a power weapon, let alone a body attached to it. 20 power weapon's at strength 6, with rage, so 3 attacks on the charge? For 10 points a pop? I can't see it personally, but if they were AP4, I could. So it fit's in my mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I beleive the bloodthirster is only strength 6 (Lol, "Only"), because you can now take thing's from an armoury, the same as CSM can do with their own armoury. There is likely some "Super smashy axe of khorne" which gives you strength 10 and +d6 attacks in close combat, or something silly good like that.
zachwho wrote: Anyone have more specific info for the skull cannon or whatever it is for 40k?? Armor values, hull points, cost, squadrons?
there is only the Blood throne profil for now.
Bloodthrone
bs 0 12/12/10 3 hullpoints.
if the bloodthrone causes at least one hammer of wrath wound he regains a hullpoint on a 4+
a herald on a bloodthrone brings his presence to every khorne unit within 6" instead of only the unit he is in.
open topped transport but can only carry the herald
Anyone else read those rules and think they came up with them because of something along these lines?
"Hey we have this fantasy chariot that can carry a hero.. how to we use this in 40k?"
"Make it transport a hero"
"But.. it can't possibly fit his squad"
"Make it transport just the hero"
"But.. we have already built the dex so that heroes give cool buffs, people wont want a hero if they cant get the buff"
"Slap an extra rule on it to give the buff and move on already, the next dex has to be ready monday"
One thing is for sure for me. My Deathguard will be able to run with hordes of cheap Plaguebearers. Even if they are only T4 with a Herald needed to give FNP, I will have fun.
Mohoc wrote: One thing is for sure for me. My Deathguard will be able to run with hordes of cheap Plaguebearers. Even if they are only T4 with a Herald needed to give FNP, I will have fun.
Yeah and 9 points a piece I can field all 49 of mine for under 500 points. Throw a couple heralds out there for about 60 a pop and you've got some healthy units.
I'm also pretty happy about T7 GUO - Lv 3 psyker with biomancy.
All deamons still got a 5+ invul, this counts also for every vehicle.
Lesser Gifts:
1: burning blood. each time you take a unsaved wound the enemy that caused the wound suffers d3 s 4 hits with ds 5. no cover saves allowed. those wounds count towards the combat result
2: cleaving strike: each hit on a 6 causes the daemon to strike with double strength (max 10)
3: corrosive breath : flame : s 5 ap 5 assault 1 armorbane
4: spellbreaker: the daemon got the rule adamantium will
5: warpbreath: 18" s 8 ap 4 assault 1 soulblaze
6: warpstalker : the daemon and his unit get +1 on reserve rolls..
you may also decide to change your roll for the
0: magical weapon. the daemon gains a aetherblade (s user ap 2, mastercrafted specialist weapon).
daemons of khorne may take a bloodaxe ( s user ap 2 instand death on 6's specialist weapon),
daemons of tzeentch a stave of change (s+2 ap 4, concussive, specialist weapon. warpcurse: a model slain by the user of this weapon explodes and hits every unit within 6" inculding the user of the stave for d6 s 5 ap - hits) ,
daemons of nurgle a mace of pestilence (s+1 ap - specialist weapon, disease: for each unsaved wound the model has to make a toughness check or suffer another wound without armor/coversaves)
daemons of slaanesh a ghostreaver sword. ( s user ap 5 rending, specialist weapon, ghostreaver: same as the nurgle one but initiative test)
Greater Gifts:
1: corpulence : the daemon got +1 toughness and the special rule it will not die
2. daemonic toughness the daemon got the special rule feel no pain (4+)
3. dark blessing: the daemon may reroll failed invul saves
4 hellfiregaze : 18" s 8 ap 1 assault 1 lance
5 touch of decay the close combat attacks of the daemon got armorbane and lifebane
6 unbreakable skin, the daemon gets a 3+ armor save.
and the 0 if you decide for it:
mighty magical weapon:
you gain a mighty aetherblade (s +1 ap 2 mastercrafted, specialist weapon
daemons of khorne may take a bloodblade: (s user ap 2, specialist weapon, unwieldly, bloodthirst: the wielder gains the special rule rampage
daemons of tzeentch may take the mutating warpblade (s user ap 3, specialist weapon, warpmutation: a character slain with with weapon becomes a chaos spawn on a 2+
daemons of nurgle may take pestielnce sword (s user ap - poison 4+ instand death. specialist weapon, rustbreath: every armor pen throw of 6 is automatically a glancing hit if it wouldnt be a penetrate allready)
daemons of slaanesh may take whip of despair ( 12" s user ap - assault 2w6)
Exalted Gifts:
1: blessed twice: roll twice again on this chart. reroll another 1. xou apply both results without further costs
2: riftbringer: at the end of close combat phase in wich the daemon caused at least 1 unsaved wound you roll 2w6 and add 1 for each 3 unasved wounds the daemon caused. is the sum is 9 or higher a new unit of daemons will be created like the warpstorm table result number 12
3: souleater: at the end of the close combat phase, if the daemon caused at least one unsaved wound you roll a d6. on a 2+ the daemon gains another lifepoint (and may go up to 10 lifepoints)
4: unholy rage : the daemon gains the special rules rampage and rage
5: warpflame. the first time this daemon is slain dont remove him from the game but take him from the table instead. the daemon may come back from reserve with 1 wound remaining.
6: winds of chaos : 24" s 2w6 ap 4 assault 1 3" explosiv. fluktuation : roll the strenght after caling the target, if its 11 or 12 its counting as s10 but is a 5" blast instead of 3"
and the 0 again:
the daemon may take a hellforged artifact of his choise from the armory.. note that these are uniqe and only once taken:
eternal blade: s +1 ap - specialist weapon, honorseeker: at the beginning of the assault phase in wich the wielder is bound to roll a d3. the result will be granted to the wielders WS, initiative and attacks.
grimoire of true names: you may use it at any time in your movement phase. the target hast to be within 24" and at least one model with the special rule daemon has to be within the unit.
is the unit a enemy it has -1 on reserve rolls. is the unit a friendly unit roll a d6. on a 1-2 the all models in the unit (except the user) with the special rule daemon suffer -1 on the reserve rolls. if you roll a 3+ all models with the rule daemon have +2 on their invulnerable saves until your next turn.
portalglyph: may be used once per game. you may place it in the movement phase (does not matter when) place a 3" blast within 12" around the user. and let it scatter 4d6. if the marker goes off the board or cannot be placed it will move the distance so it can be placed (droppod) after that its a vehicle with the following profile : bs 0 12/12/12 hp 1
after placing the portalglyph you roll a d6 at the end of your movement phase. on a 4+ a new unit of d6 daemons (of your choisem horrors, daemonettes, plaguebearers or bloodletters) the unit got no upgrades but counts as a normal unit of its type.
the stone of the damned: at the beginning of the assault phase. every enemy character models that are not daemons have to make a ld test. if it passes, nothing happens. if it loses. the model has -d6 on his ld value. if a model goes below 0 this way. it gets removed instantly without saves allowed.
Psychic Powers
Tzeentch: primaris: 24" s 5 ap 4 assault 2d6, warpflames, soulfire. 1 warpcharge.
for each additional warpcharge you gain a additional d6 1-2: 24" S d6 +1 assault 1 3" explosive, warpflames
3-4: 24" beam s d6+4 ap 2 assault 1 warpflames
5-6: witchfire: 18" s d6+4 ap 1 assault 1 explosive 3" warpflames.
Nurgle:
primaris: witchfire : flame s - ap 3 assault 1 poison 4+
1-2 : witchfire, 12" s 1 ap 2 assault 1 5" blast 4+ poison.
3-4 : blessing, the psyker gains at the beginning of each assault phase a d3. all enemys in base contact have the score reduced on their WS and initiative
5-6 : nova: every enemy within 12" has to do a toughness test or suffer a wound without armor or coversaves allowed. if the unit loses a model it has to do another toughness check and so on and so on.
Slaanesh
primaris : beam ; 24" s 6 ap - rending assault 1
1-2 : malediction, a enemy within 18" has -5 initiative and can not use the special rule counter attack nor can it overwatch
3-4 : 24" focused witchfire. enemy has to do a leaderchip tests or takes a wound without armor or coversaves allowed. if the model dies you nominate another random model in the unit. and so on and so on....
5-6 : nova : 12" every enemy has to roll 2w6 on and take the ld of the result. for every point remaining on this roll the unit suffers a wound without armor or cover saves allowed. after that the units have to do a pinning test-
Banners
horrors can for additional 20 points get the banner of curse... wich once per game causes a additional 2d6 s 4 ds - hits to any unit hit.
nurgle banner is nce per game all models in the unit have poisoned weapons 2+
slanesh: every enemy in base contact with the banner has -3 ws
Skarbrand
ws 10 bs 10 s 6 t 6 w 5 i 10 a 6 ld 9 sv 3+
every unit (friend and foe) within 12" have rage and hatred (everything!)
got a s 5 ap - flamer...
his weapons
murder : s user ap 2 lifebane
deathstrike s user ap 2 armorbane
225 points. his warlord trait is the all attacks cause instant death.
Bloodthirster
250pts
ws 10 bs 10 s 6 t 6 w 5 i 9 a 6 ld 9 Sv 3+
axe of khorne (instantdeath on 6s)
whip of khorne ( 12" s 6 ds 2 assault 1)
may take up to 50 points in daemonic gifts.
Skulltaker
100pts
ws 9 bs 9 s 5 t 4 w 2 i 9 a 4 ld 8 sv3+
always has to accsept and issue challenges.
got eternal warrior and his sword is
s user ap 3 soulblaze and kills on 6's
comes with the adamant will presence.
may take a jugger for 45 points
Karanak
120pts
ws 7 bs 0 s 5 t 5 w 3 i 6 a 4 ld 6 sv 6+
before placing the armys on the board nominate his prey(character). as long as this model is alive karanak rerolls all to hit and to wound rolls against the prey and its unit
got the rage presence from the start.
Flesh Hounds
16pts
ws 5 bs 0 s 4 t 4 w 2 i 4 a 2 ld 7 sv 6+/5++
scouts
collar of khorne: +2 on deny the witch rolls.
Khorne Herald
55pts
ws 7 bs 7 s 5 t 4 w 2 i 6 a 3 ld 6 sv 6+
30 points into gifts
lesser presence of stubborness (may misstranlate here): 10 points the model and his unit have adamantium will
presence of rage : 20 points the model and his unit gain rage
presence of wrath: 25 points the model and his unit got hatred (everything!)
may take a juggernaught 45 points or a
Juggernaut ; +1 t +1 w + 1 a and becomes cavalry.
bloodthrone for 75 points
Bloodthrone
bs 0 12/12/10 3 hullpoints.
if the bloodthrone causes at least one hammer of wrath wound he regains a hullpoint on a 4+
a herald on a bloodthrone brings his presence to every khorne unit within 6" instead of only the unit he is in.
open topped transport but can only carry the herald
Bloodcrushers
ws 5 bs 5 s 5 t 4 w 3 i 4 a 4 ld 7 sv 6+
hellblades. and they cost 5 points more then currently.
cavalry
one may become a bloodhunter for 5 points gaining 1 attack and can take up to 20 points in gifts.
may take instrument, icon and banner.
Bloodletter
10pts
hellblades - ap 3.
WS 5 bs 5 s 4 t 3 w 1 i 4 a 1 ld 7 sv 6+
one may be a hellfighter with the possibility to get up to 20 points in rewards.
one may take instrument of chaos 10 points, (if you deepstrike this unit you may nominate another unit of the same god to deepstrike right after them without reserve roll. in addition the warpstrom table roll of the same god wich wipes on the opposing god you may reroll the d6 if the unit is hit.
one may take ikon of chaos 10 points and may (still a homer but only works for units fo the same god) upgrade that for banner of blood for 10 points. ( the unit may once per game assault 6"+d6 instead of 2d6.
Ku'gath
260pts
ws 6 bs 3 s 6 t7 w 7 i 4 a 6 ld 9
still got his 4+ pieplate but its ap 3 now.
psyker level 1
and can heal 1 w per turn on a single unit of nurglings...
Great Unclean One
190 points
ws 6 bs 3 s 6 t 7 w 6 i 4 a 5 ld 9
psyker level 1
poison (4+)
cann roll for pestilence and biomancy. may be upgraded up to psyker level 3 for 25 pts per level.
may take 50 points of lesser, mighty and exhalted gifts.
Nurgle Herald
ws 5 bs 5 t 5 w 2 i 4 a 3 ld 8
45 points. may take up to 30 points in gifts.
may be psyker up to level 2 for 25 points each.
may take presence of virulence: 10 points the model and its unit got poison 2+
presence of fertility 20 points the model and its unit gain feel no pain.
presence of affliction. 25 points. the model and his unit gains for every 6 on the enemy's to hit rolls instantly attack with s4 ap - and poison 4+ (next to the normal attacks)
palanquin 45 points: gains +2 w +1 a and is bulky.
Plague Drones
42pts (9 max)
can get the 3+ poison for 5 pts per model
can also get instant death attacks for 5+ per model
Plaguebearer
9pts
ws 3 bs 3 s 4 t 4 w 1 i 2 a 1 ld 7
daemon of nurgle so really they are shrouded... but no fnp nor t 5
Nurglings
15 pts
ws 3 bs 3 s 3 t3 w 4 i3 a 4 ld 7
infiltrators
Fateweaver
300pts
ws 1 bs 6 s 5 t 5 w 5 i 2 a 1 ld 9 4+ invul.
can reroll a single dice per turn.
psyker level 4. one head knows all of tzeentch +1 roll on pyromancy and prophecy, the other one knows all tzeentch and 1 roll on telepathy and biomancy you have to decide wich head is used at the start of every turn.
no longer make a ld or dissapear after getting wounded.
no reroll bubble
Lord of Change
230pts
ws 6 bs 6 s 6 t 6 w 5 i 6 a 5 ld 9 and 5+ invul (like every other daemon)
starts as psyker level 2. can get a additional level for the same price as others.
can roll on tzeentch lore and divination.
can take up to 50 points in gifts.
Herald of Tzeentch
45 points
ws 3 bs 4 s 3 t 3 lp 2 i 3 a 2 ld 8
psyker level 1. prophecy and change as powers.
may take up to 30 points in daemonic gifts.
psyker levels up to 3 for 25 points each.
take up to three presences.
presence of tranmorification 10 points ( for each dead horror you place d3 blue horror markers instead of 1)
presence of change 20 points you roll a d6 at the start of each turn. your model and his unit gain the strength of the d6 roll.
presence of conjuration: 25 points +1 strength on the power of psychic powers by the model and his unit.
may take a disk of tzeentch 25 points
Disk of tzeentch: +1 a and jetbike
chariot of tzeentch 50 pts
Chariot of Tzeentch
100 pts flat.
10/10/10 all around 3 hp flamer on the inside got 3 lp otherwise same profile as the rest.
my take the blue horror upgrade 10 pts (-1 ld for every enemy within 6".
can take up to 20 pts in gifts
open topped, fast, skimmer, chariot.
Flamers
same, but loose awesome flamer attack, replaced with
s4 ap4 and causes warpflame wich basically causes the enemy to force a toughness check after wounds have been caused. if he fails he suffers d3 additional wounds without armor or cover allowed. if he makes the test he gains 6+ feel no pain or if the unit already got feel no pain it becomes better by 1.. they cost the same as of the update.
Screamers
same (and re-roll 1)
Pink Horrors
9pts
ws 3 bs 3 s 3 t 3 w 1 i 3 a 1 ld 7
for psychic tests they add +3 to the ld Brootherhood of sorcerers
Blue horrors: if a pink horror is slain place a blue horror marker.. at initiative 1 the blue horror attacks causing the enemy unit to suffer one s2 hit with ap -
horrors can only cast change dicipline, not divination.
horrors get 1 warppoint, 2 at unit strength 11-15 and 3 at 16-20. they generate psychic powers at the start of the game like normal psykers but can only roll on tzeentch lore.
2d6 shots base +d6 for each additional warp point. in additon they have access to the other spells of lore of tzeentch, you roll for them like you do with psykers. making them psyker level 3 gives great benefit.
Slaanesh
sadly no named greater daemon.
Keeper of Secrets
170pts
ws 9 bs 6 s 6 t 6 w 5 i 10 a 6 ld 9
psyker level 1
prefered enemy eldar/dark eldar.
can get psyker level up to 3 for same costs as everyone else
can take up to 50 pts in gifts.
Masque
75 pts
ws 7 bs 6 s 4 t 3 w 2 i 7 a ld 8
may take up to hit and run. unnatural reflexes (may reroll failed invul saves)
eternal dance: at the beginning of the shooting phase you decide for wich dance she makes against a single non vehicle unit within 12"
dance of binding: the enemy has -5 WS (minimum 1) can only move d3" only d3" run and only d3" assault. also the unit can only fall back d3"
dance of death: the unit suffers as many strength 1 hits as models are in the unit. these hits have AP 2 and igore cover.
dance of dreaming: the target has -5 bs and cannot overwatch. until the next turn of the mask.
Herald of Slaanesh
45 pts
ws 7 bs 6 s 4 t 3 w 2 i 7 a 4 LD 8
same psyker upgrades as nurgle as well as gifts..
presence same costs.. here are the tiers:
presence of grace : model and unit gains move through cover
presence of agility (30pts) the model and its unit have +5 on its initiative (yes you read that right)
presence of seduction. the model and its unit may reroll to hit rolls in close combat. the user always has to accept challenges or issue them. but the user of the presence decides wich character the enemy takes for the challenge.
slanesh horse. 15
chariot 30
exhalted chariot 80
Steed of slaanesh: +1 a and outflanking and acute senses. also becomes cavalry
Fiends
ws 4 bs 0 s 4 t 4 lp 3 i 6 a 3 ld 7
models that getsin contact by one or more feinds gets -5 to their initiative
they got a 12" aura that decreases enemy psykers LD by 1
35 pts a piece
Seekers
ws 5 bs 4 s 3 t 3 lp 1 i 5 a 3 LD 7
outflank, acute senses
12 points a piece
Daemonettes
9pts
ws 5 bs 4 s 3 t 3 w 1 i 5 a 2 ld 7
rending + 3" run
Daemon Princes
warpsmithed armor with a 3+ armorsave for 20 points.
they can be made heavy support with the corresponding greater deamon (and charakter GD) fromt he same god.
Chaos Furies
ws 3 bs 0 s 4 t 3 w 1 i 4 a 1 ld?
infantry with jumpmodule (like crisis)
Can be to khorne/nurlge/slaanesh/tzeentch
Soulgrinder
135 pts + upgrade to god needed
Comes with close combat weapon and the harvester
Harvester is now a weapon with 2 profiles...
autocannon with 6 shots
autocannon with 3 shots and skyfire
Can can get the flamer (wich is now torrent) for 20
phlegm for 30
tounge for 25 points
Thanks for those Pretre!
However, I still get the impression that there's some mixing up of 40k/Fantasy stats in there... (ie: Flesh Hounds have 2 wounds in Fantasy)
I am however getting more and more excited for the new books! Being a Tzeentch player, change is a good thing!
Experiment 626 wrote: Thanks for those Pretre!
However, I still get the impression that there's some mixing up of 40k/Fantasy stats in there... (ie: Flesh Hounds have 2 wounds in Fantasy)
I am however getting more and more excited for the new books! Being a Tzeentch player, change is a good thing!
Yes I'm still trying to hold all my excitement until I actually have the book in hand. It's hard to do though..
One of the Tzeentch powers has 'explosive' listed as an effect. I don't see that anywhere in the rulebook, what does it mean?
Also, I don't know that I'm crazy about only getting 3D6 shots out of a 11 strong Horror unit when they used to get 33 guaranteed, even if the shots have the potential to be of higher strength.
Chaospling wrote: Strange how cheap the Soul Grinder is compared to the Defiler. It's probably too much to hope for it remains as 13/13/11 HP4.
Not strange at all when it looks like the basic version comes with just 2 guns and the mandetory need to upgrade it to one of the 4 gods.
Going by the current rumors, it looks pretty barebones at face value and requires at least one forced upgrade, (which likely isn't free), and then requires even more upgrades for different firing modes.
Fully upgraded it looks like the things will cost upwards of 250-270+ pts!
Chaospling wrote: Strange how cheap the Soul Grinder is compared to the Defiler. It's probably too much to hope for it remains as 13/13/11 HP4.
Not strange at all when it looks like the basic version comes with just 2 guns and the mandetory need to upgrade it to one of the 4 gods.
Going by the current rumors, it looks pretty barebones at face value and requires at least one forced upgrade, (which likely isn't free), and then requires even more upgrades for different firing modes.
Fully upgraded it looks like the things will cost upwards of 250-270+ pts!
It already starts with a Six Shot autocannon, and a three shot auto against flyers. You really don't need much else.
Chaospling wrote: Strange how cheap the Soul Grinder is compared to the Defiler. It's probably too much to hope for it remains as 13/13/11 HP4.
Not strange at all when it looks like the basic version comes with just 2 guns and the mandetory need to upgrade it to one of the 4 gods.
Going by the current rumors, it looks pretty barebones at face value and requires at least one forced upgrade, (which likely isn't free), and then requires even more upgrades for different firing modes.
Fully upgraded it looks like the things will cost upwards of 250-270+ pts!
It already starts with a Six Shot autocannon, and a three shot auto against flyers. You really don't need much else.
But a mark is mandatory, so it's a minimum of 150 points. So it's basically a quad gun, with one less shot, and the ability to defend itself in melee, for 150 points.
Swara wrote: Yeah and 9 points a piece I can field all 49 of mine for under 500 points. Throw a couple heralds out there for about 60 a pop and you've got some healthy units.
I'm also pretty happy about T7 GUO - Lv 3 psyker with biomancy.
Well, a fellow on Warseer supposedly got the book today and is answering questions. GUO is supposedly T6...? 6 Wounds? Whoopee.
Chaospling wrote: Strange how cheap the Soul Grinder is compared to the Defiler. It's probably too much to hope for it remains as 13/13/11 HP4.
Not strange at all when it looks like the basic version comes with just 2 guns and the mandetory need to upgrade it to one of the 4 gods.
Going by the current rumors, it looks pretty barebones at face value and requires at least one forced upgrade, (which likely isn't free), and then requires even more upgrades for different firing modes.
Fully upgraded it looks like the things will cost upwards of 250-270+ pts!
It already starts with a Six Shot autocannon, and a three shot auto against flyers. You really don't need much else.
But a mark is mandatory, so it's a minimum of 150 points. So it's basically a quad gun, with one less shot, and the ability to defend itself in melee, for 150 points.
And with Slaanesh it's a Quad Gun with Rending. (Or is that only in CC)
Chaospling wrote: Strange how cheap the Soul Grinder is compared to the Defiler. It's probably too much to hope for it remains as 13/13/11 HP4.
Not strange at all when it looks like the basic version comes with just 2 guns and the mandetory need to upgrade it to one of the 4 gods.
Going by the current rumors, it looks pretty barebones at face value and requires at least one forced upgrade, (which likely isn't free), and then requires even more upgrades for different firing modes.
Fully upgraded it looks like the things will cost upwards of 250-270+ pts!
Hold your horses! Upgrades for 115-135 points!? Where do you get this from?
As it is now you only have to pay for the Mark and still 135 points for 13/13/11 and HP4 is very cheap.
undertow wrote: One of the Tzeentch powers has 'explosive' listed as an effect. I don't see that anywhere in the rulebook, what does it mean?
Also, I don't know that I'm crazy about only getting 3D6 shots out of a 11 strong Horror unit when they used to get 33 guaranteed, even if the shots have the potential to be of higher strength.
Well, for one you do get more psychic powers, so Horrors can be a lot more versatile. The Primaris power also starts at strength 5, so that's already 1 higher than Warpflame was. Horrors are also 8 points cheaper a piece as well. They will probably need a Herald to really shine though.
undertow wrote: One of the Tzeentch powers has 'explosive' listed as an effect. I don't see that anywhere in the rulebook, what does it mean?
Also, I don't know that I'm crazy about only getting 3D6 shots out of a 11 strong Horror unit when they used to get 33 guaranteed, even if the shots have the potential to be of higher strength.
Well, for one you do get more psychic powers, so Horrors can be a lot more versatile. The Primaris power also starts at strength 5, so that's already 1 higher than Warpflame was. Horrors are also 8 points cheaper a piece as well. They will probably need a Herald to really shine though.
Yeah, a Herald with Prescience would help make up some of the lost ground. Also, that conjuration locus would appear to take the horrors' shooting up to s6, which ain't shabby.
Edit: Pretty sure 'explosive' means 'blast'.
And while the W2 for Flesh Hounds could be a WFB stat, Screamers gained a wound. So it's plausible.
I think the right build for them would be a Lvl 3 Herald with the +1st who takes the tzeentch primaris and then two divination powers. 20 Horrors.
For around 280ish points you get the ability to basically split fire 2d6 St6 twinlinked bs4 shots, 3d6 st6 twinlinked bs3 shots and a St. d6+5 beam for some anti-tank. Seems solid to me.
The only trouble I see is you want to use them last if you're doing other shooting as you don't want to inadvertantly give a unit FnP against future shots in the same round. I hope that Warp Flames isn't cumalitve but from what we've seen it will be.
Personally, I'm looking forward to the horde. The fact that I can get 120 daemons for less than 1200pts is disgustingly fun!
undertow wrote: One of the Tzeentch powers has 'explosive' listed as an effect. I don't see that anywhere in the rulebook, what does it mean?
Also, I don't know that I'm crazy about only getting 3D6 shots out of a 11 strong Horror unit when they used to get 33 guaranteed, even if the shots have the potential to be of higher strength.
Well, for one you do get more psychic powers, so Horrors can be a lot more versatile. The Primaris power also starts at strength 5, so that's already 1 higher than Warpflame was. Horrors are also 8 points cheaper a piece as well. They will probably need a Herald to really shine though.
Yeah, a Herald with Prescience would help make up some of the lost ground. Also, that conjuration locus would appear to take the horrors' shooting up to s6, which ain't shabby.
Fair enough. I'm really trying to wait to have the book in my hands before casting judgement.
I don't know that I'll run ANY MCs in my lists, given the current rumors.
Daemons in fantasy have always had a 6+ save IIRC. Never played them myself (nor against them )
You recall incorrectly. Daemons always had a 5+ Ward/Daemonic save. This 6+ thing is new and ONLY a Khorne thing, at least for the Fantasy side(it's a Scaly Skin save there).
Daemons in fantasy have always had a 6+ save IIRC. Never played them myself (nor against them )
You recall incorrectly. Daemons always had a 5+ Ward/Daemonic save. This 6+ thing is new and ONLY a Khorne thing, at least for the Fantasy side(it's a Scaly Skin save there).
Ah, thanks for that.
Must have been another army then
chaos0xomega wrote: Wait, what about the blue scribes? They still in the book?
I assume that. They released a new miniature for them half a year ago.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
aliusexalio wrote: So whats up with the 6+ save I keep seeing? Don't demons still keep their 5++ save? So why the 6+ one?
Daemons in fantasy have always had a 6+ save IIRC. Never played them myself (nor against them )
Blue Scribes reportidly work exactly as their Fantasy version now; pick a BRB psychic lore, roll random power and auto-cast it w/out test. (and likely no swapingfor the primaris power either)
Daemons typically don't wear armour, even in Fantasy.
The main exceptions have been that Khornate units have typically either had light/heavy armour, Juggers acting like sudo armour & characters getting access to the likes of 'Armour of Khorne'. Nurgle has occasionally also had characters gaining access to a 4+ or 5+ save.
However, back in the day, IIRC any undecided daemonic character auto-gained Chaos Armour for a basic 4+ save, while Khorne characters could purchase it.
Hulksmash wrote: Personally, I'm looking forward to the horde. The fact that I can get 120 daemons for less than 1200pts is disgustingly fun!
Thing only thing that I'm worried about is the time to play it. Bringing 120+ models makes it hard to finish a game in 2.5 hours.
The good thing about it is, you can either take lot's of troops, and make a horde army, or bring elites, fast attack, heavy support and HQ's in abundance, and use a small amount of very powerfull unit's to protect your minimal troops.
It's either horde, or elite, depending on how you play it
Meh, I currently move, shoot, and sometimes fight in assault two large blobs that always have prescience on them. 120 models which won't be taking place in every phase or rerolling everything will be fine
This is what I'm thinking of trying when the codex comes out.
- 20 Plague Bearers
- 40 Bloodletters (just because I own the models)
- 40 Daemonettes
- 18 Screamers
- 3 Seeker Chariots
- 2 Soulgrinders
- 2 Heralds of Khorne on Juggs in the Bloodletter squads
- Bloodthister/LoC/Fateweaver
I guess with a little practice that would be doable. The trick is to pull models from the back and put in the front when playing them.
(Those are the models I own btw, that's why I am thinking of it)
I feel like I might go for one unit of Screamers and two large units of Steeds of Slaanesh. They are insanely fast and at 12ppm they're a steal. In fact I can see Daemonettes and Horrors being extremely popular with a unit or two 10 Plaguebearers in cover on objectives constantly going to ground for a 3++.
Hulksmash wrote: I feel like I might go for one unit of Screamers and two large units of Steeds of Slaanesh. They are insanely fast and at 12ppm they're a steal. In fact I can see Daemonettes and Horrors being extremely popular with a unit or two 10 Plaguebearers in cover on objectives constantly going to ground for a 3++.
Yeah, that's one of the plus sides I've seen from Daemonic instability. We pass all Fear, Morale and Pinning tests, but we're not 'Fearless', which means we can Go to Ground and back off from combat from things we can't hurt.
Yeah, I'm liking Seekers too. Plus 3" to running would have been good...+6" is stupidly good. And at 12 pts per with that kind of speed and acute senses, I don't even hate them for outflanking.
Well, I'm going to have to get more daemonettes and seekers!
And convert fiends, and finish my KoS conversion...
May have to invest in the Masque too, now...
Also, the more I look at the rumoured slaanesh rules, -1 I isn't too bad, -1 attack isn't bad either, really.
No grenades is a bit of a blow, but oh well, again not gamebreakingly bad
Agility, sounds look, but useless. I10 slaanesh daemonettes, bit excessive?
MtC ability might be good, though.
Seduction is pretty cool for an assassin herald, give her one of the Aetherblades or the Honoursword (again, assuming rumors are true) and kill them. Not a SC killer for the most part, but really good.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Well, I'm going to have to get more daemonettes and seekers!
And convert fiends, and finish my KoS conversion...
May have to invest in the Masque too, now...
Also, the more I look at the rumoured slaanesh rules, -1 I isn't too bad, -1 attack isn't bad either, really.
No grenades is a bit of a blow, but oh well, again not gamebreakingly bad
Agility, sounds look, but useless. I10 slaanesh daemonettes, bit excessive?
MtC ability might be good, though.
Seduction is pretty cool for an assassin herald, give her one of the Aetherblades or the Honoursword (again, assuming rumors are true) and kill them. Not a SC killer for the most part, but really good.
Seekers won't be slowed down by difficult terrain because they're cavalry, but then will pass all their dangerous terrain tests thanks to MtC. Heh. And that's while they move 20+" each turn.
On a more comical note:
Over on Whinseer there's a huge debate raging in the Fantasy daemon rumors that the Winds of Magic chart, (aka: the Fantasy version of the Warpstorm table), only hurts marked enemy units and/or any units with Daemonic Instability.
of course, the camp that says, "no the table can effectively only ever hurt daemons/WoC" is trying to prove their point by saying that if it worked against all enemy units in general, it would be too over-powered. (because apparently a 1 in 6 chance of hitting any enemy unit not locked in combat is game-breaking now...)
Hulksmash wrote: Well the way it's been presented so far it's showing as gain. But if not then there are other combos already cropping up.
Thinking on it, I think we may need to clarify for each other. Are we talking the mid-grade Locus power(which is D6St for herald and unit) or one of the Gifts?
Anyone else think it's a little strange that there seems to be a good amount of Tzeentch stuff giving bonus strength and attacks for things you typically don't want in combat?
Seekers are awesome sauce, but they will likely be competing with screamers for the same slot.
Screamers are your solution to AP2 and armor. This is even moreso if you don't have any MCs.
So loading up on 30 seekers is a really keen idea, but I think 20 seekers and 9 screamers might take you further.
BarBoBot wrote: Any word on wheather or not demons will be true battle brothers with CSM yet? (Joining each others units etc.)
Looking like no joining units - apparently, Daemonic Instability prevents a model w/o that rule from joining a unit that has it (so no Chaos Lords on Juggers joining Bloodcrushers, for example).
Not sure about the inverse yet, but it's less important for Heralds to join CSM units, I think.
Hulksmash wrote: No, because Tzeentch has a unit you do want in combat, Screamers. Makes sense to me.
Tzeentch is currently a shooty army though. Imo there seem to be too many close combat boosts but I'll wait until I have the book in my hand before I declare shooty Tzeentch to be dead.
BarBoBot wrote: Any word on wheather or not demons will be true battle brothers with CSM yet? (Joining each others units etc.)
Looking like no joining units - apparently, Daemonic Instability prevents a model w/o that rule from joining a unit that has it (so no Chaos Lords on Juggers joining Bloodcrushers, for example).
Not sure about the inverse yet, but it's less important for Heralds to join CSM units, I think.
It might go both ways. When I translated the original post, the rule seemed weird to me, but that was what he wrote.
Hulksmash wrote: No, because Tzeentch has a unit you do want in combat, Screamers. Makes sense to me.
Tzeentch is currently a shooty army though. Imo there seem to be too many close combat boosts but I'll wait until I have the book in my hand before I declare shooty Tzeentch to be dead.
Shooty chariot's, and horror's with psychic shooting attacks, flying shooty princes and/or greater daemon's with psychic shooting, and normal shooting, with extra shooting.
Sound's pretty shooty to me. Even if it's a lot more psychic shooting.
Its a Chariot apparently, can regen a lost PC when it killed at least one model with the HoW like the Bloodthrone.
Its a BS5 S8 AP4 Big Blast, and when Khorne Deamons charge a unit that was hit by a Skull Cannon, and that unit is in a terrain, the Deamons that assault them don't take Init malus for assaulting in a cover without grenades.
In the Fantasy version i think i saw somewhere that it could still fire, even if engaged in combat, not sure if this is gonna be like this in 40k though...
Raziel started a new Daemons codex thread on 4chan again... hes answering questions now.
4 heralds are allowed per HQ slot (instead of the previous 2), but have a max of 4 per primary detachment... unless you are playing with double FOC, then you can take 8. This is nice... can outfit all of your troops squads with one
There is no way to make Daemon Princes fast attack as we heard in rumors a month ago, even if you buy wings etc. However, they can be made heavy support if you take the greater daemon of that god, and are priced very similar to CSM princes. If you are not taking a greater daemon, then the princes can only be HQ.
Choosing daemon psychic powers very similar to CSM... for example, a lvl 3 Daemon of Nurgle has to take at least 1 nurgle power and then can roll on either nurgle or biomancy. Slaneesh is Slaneesh/Telepathy, Tzeentch are tzeentch/divination.
Rakarsis wrote: Raziel started a new Daemons codex thread on 4chan again... hes answering questions now.
4 heralds are allowed per HQ slot (instead of the previous 2), but have a max of 4 per primary detachment... unless you are playing with double FOC, then you can take 8. This is nice... can outfit all of your troops squads with one
There is no way to make Daemon Princes fast attack as we heard in rumors a month ago, even if you buy wings etc. However, they can be made heavy support if you take the greater daemon of that god, and are priced very similar to CSM princes.
Choosing daemon psychic powers very similar to CSM... for example, a lvl 3 Daemon of Nurgle has to take at least 1 nurgle power and then can roll on either nurgle or biomancy. Slaneesh is Slaneesh/Telepathy, Tzeentch are tzeentch/divination.
Hulksmash wrote: Not as good as a Tzeentch herald on disc with the +d6St power, daemonic weapon, and prescience joined to a 9 screamer unit
It's looking like this book, just like the CSM and DA, is going to provide a plethora of ways to play the army
Hulk,
Once you get your hands on the book make sure you post your initial thoughts ASAP.
I've always wanted to play a Daemons army since they released the last codex, but never pulled the trigger. I like what I'm reading here so far (minus all the random roll abilities that I'll have to figure out a way to keep track of for each model) but it looks SO very different from the last codex that I don't know where to begin...so I'm definitely looking for a non-jaded vet Daemon player (that would be you) to give me some good starting pointers to think about.
Reading his postings now. These are all copy and past from his thread.
Nurglings are still Swarm but can infiltrate, Unit size 3-9
GUO ws 6 bs 3 s 6 t 7 w 7 i 4 a 6 ld 9
psyker level 1. poison 4+
slimetrail (like beasts of nurgle) enems dont get a +1 attack and no furious charge when assaulting him
he always got the warlord trait that every daemon within 12" can reroll instability tests.
all heralds can take up to 30 points in gifts.
greater daemons 50 points and dp aswell 50 points..
exhalted gifts the primary weapon you can always take is "select a item from the hellforged list" wich are all artefacts.. so all artefac are 30 points
everyone.. even champions of units.. EVERY lesser gift roll is 10 pts.. EVERY powerful gift roll is 20 EVERY exhalted is 30.
so if a herald can take up to 30 points in gifts its your choice what you take. either 3 lesser, 1 lesser 1 powerful or one exhalted. you can mix and match as you want.
champions of units (5 pts upgrade) can take up to 20 pts.
important to note : you roll ALL gifts first and after all models that have bought gifts rolled you decide for each model if you want to swap for the primary gift (the magical weapons)
unlike the primary power rolling for psychic powers this is really awesome for building nice gift setups as you can mix and match after rolling all gifts.
[Bloodcrushers are] 3 wounds now and beeing cav makes them fast.. really fast.. add the khrone banner with 6" + d6 charge range (more reliable yknow) and they are quick enough inside the enemys unit.
warlord traits:
1: the warlord has instant death on all CC attacks.
2: the warlord and his unit have the special rule hatred
3: as long as the warlord is alive the enemy has to test his fear tests with -1 ld 4: all daemons within 12" of the warlord may reroll instability tests
5: as long as the warlord is alive you can reroll on the warpstrom table
6: the warlord counts as having a teleport homer for daemons
set warlord abilities:
skarbrand : 1
kairos : 5
ku'gath : 4
the rest got none.
they [Icons] count as homers for units of the same god.
units of other gods only scatter d6 they also add +1 to the close combat result. doesnt matter if you had a draw or lost.. always +1
instruments let you deepstrike another unit of the same god with you (like stormtalon special rule) also they let you reroll the 6's on the warpstorm table of opposing gods if you play multiple gods. for example:
unit of bloodletters with instrument. you got the warpstrom result khornes wrath wich hits your daemonettes coz you rolled a 6. you may reroll the dice thanks to the instrument
lordofthegophers wrote: Can anyone confirm that the angry god results on the Warp storm table affect all enemy units? Not just Daemons.
I think they do, otherwise why not just say "Units containing a Daemon of X or a model with the Mark of X..." instead of the "Enemy units and friendly units containing a Daemon of X or a model with the Mark of X..."?
It's unnecessarily wordy if it only affects Daemons/Marks of X, but then again this is GW.
Hulksmash wrote: Not as good as a Tzeentch herald on disc with the +d6St power, daemonic weapon, and prescience joined to a 9 screamer unit
It's looking like this book, just like the CSM and DA, is going to provide a plethora of ways to play the army
Hulk,
Once you get your hands on the book make sure you post your initial thoughts ASAP.
I've always wanted to play a Daemons army since they released the last codex, but never pulled the trigger. I like what I'm reading here so far (minus all the random roll abilities that I'll have to figure out a way to keep track of for each model) but it looks SO very different from the last codex that I don't know where to begin...so I'm definitely looking for a non-jaded vet Daemon player (that would be you) to give me some good starting pointers to think about.
I fully intend to get something up on my blog next week. Gonna have 10+ hours to spitball on my drive back from the Indy Open with some of the local guys so there should be some thoughts starting to come around
It's always nice to have people who enjoy your opinion on things
schadenfreude wrote: WS5 deamonettes and seekers with the -3 WS banner are hit on a 5+ by any opponent WS5 or less, and hit any opponent WS7 or less on a 3+.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone have info on the warpstorm table?
I posted it earlier in the tread. Just hit filter under my name. I am asking some follow up questions to a guy that has the codex in hand on 4chan/tg
After reading and contemplating, I have to say despite the nerfs to my favorite gods, this codex doesn't seem half bad. If you look at it as an ork player(Hordes of cheap troops and other cheap units) it seems really good. In a different respect, you could go really cheap on troops and splurge the rest of your points on big stompy daemons. I'll have to look more into the dex but as it stands Tzeentch is tops, but Slannesh can be very, very fast.
There's a lot of butthurt flying around from both sides of the argument, would really like some clarification, personally I think it would be silly if it affected only our own units.
lordofthegophers wrote: There's a lot of butthurt flying around from both sides of the argument, would really like some clarification, personally I think it would be silly if it affected only our own units.
Looks like the answer is "yes, it effects all enemy units" including any allies of convenience.
Tzeentch shooting may be all psychic fireworks now, but dear sweet fluffernutter! Think about what a unit of 18-20 Pinkies including a Mastery Level 2 or 3 HoT w/Prescience + his own primaris Tzeentch power can do; a possible 7D6 shots all re-rolling missed to-hit rolls? (and IIRC atS5/ap4 to boot)
Sure hope my opponent's can pass their DtW rolls, otherwise that'll leave a few marks!
Now imagine a Tzeentch-Nurgle tag-team and hitting your intended shooting target first with Enfeeble from Biomancy... (wound most things on 2's or 3's and swing the likelyhood of an additional +D3 auto-wounds more in your favour)
Sure you've got to roll up those powers, but feth, the possibilities when the gods truely smile upon you can get downright dirty.
As a non-daemon player that is interested in the new book, how is Tzeentch doing? I have *been afraid to start an army due to how good screamers and flamers are leading to a possible harsh pendulum swing.
I'm still sad that with decades of previous books, rules and various other sources that they couldn't do 7 powers per Chaos God (this applies to CSM as well).
I'm not digging the Slaanesh powers at all. When the book is released and if Slaanesh doesn't have a way to reduce leadership, Pavane of Slaanesh and Cacophonic Choir is going to be a complete joke. Warpcharge 2 to maybe do 2-3 wounds to most units IF you roll a 10 or higher? Thats pathetic....
I also sat down with the book this evening, everything looks balanced and fun to play. I didn't see any units that just struck me as bad.
Something that struck me as weird though was the bloodletter's 5 BS. I guess stick them on an aegis line or in a tower and let them go at it on the heavy bolters, lol.
Noir Eternal wrote: I'm not digging the Slaanesh powers at all. When the book is released and if Slaanesh doesn't have a way to reduce leadership, Pavane of Slaanesh and Cacophonic Choir is going to be a complete joke. Warpcharge 2 to maybe do 2-3 wounds to most units IF you roll a 10 or higher? Thats pathetic....
Average Ld is 8/9. Plus, no armour or cover is pretty harsh.
Sure it's not going to erase large swathes of Guardsmen or Orks, but a Terminator unit for example botching their roll will be rather painful.
Besides, Slaanesh not gaining any Ld fudging abilities is a damn GOOD thing!!!
Clearly you never saw what Slaanesh did with those abilities in 7th edition...
The endless Slicing Shards was OP.
The insta Terror Ld-Bomb was game endingly broken.
Average Ld is 8/9. Plus, no armour or cover is pretty harsh.
Sure it's not going to erase large swathes of Guardsmen or Orks, but a Terminator unit for example botching their roll will be rather painful.
Besides, Slaanesh not gaining any Ld fudging abilities is a damn GOOD thing!!!
Clearly you never saw what Slaanesh did with those abilities in 7th edition...
The endless Slicing Shards was OP.
The insta Terror Ld-Bomb was game endingly broken.
On average roll of 7, it will do nothing in 40k, and most Termie squads have a LD10 Char with them, I will laugh it you used that on them.
And now your talking about Fantasy, where as I was talking ONLY about 40k
I'm talking about the one which makes you take a leadership test or suffer a wound with no armour or cover saves aloud, then if the model is slain, go on to the next one. It might have been the other power. A whole squad of ork boys gone with two psychic tests. THE NUMBER OF WOUNDS YOU CAN CAUSE WITH THAT STUFF IS ASTOUNDING
A whole squad of Ork boys, are you serious? Like the squad that has a LD equal to the number of Boys up to 10? So maybe if there are about 5 boys left, and they repeated failed a still relatively easy LD until they all died you may kill them.
But a warp charge 2 power to kill a couple low point models? Not very impressive....at all
Save yourself the trouble, use a 10 point flamer and kill at least twice as many
Noir Eternal wrote: A whole squad of Ork boys, are you serious? Like the squad that has a LD equal to the number of Boys up to 10? So maybe if there are about 5 boys left, and they repeated failed a still relatively easy LD until they all died you may kill them.
But a warp charge 2 power to kill a couple low point models? Not very impressive....at all
I'm talking about the combination of psyker battle squad and that power. It would kill any single-wound-per-model unit that doesn't have an invuln. Reduce their leadership to 2, then make them take tests and they will lose models until they roll double 1s or until the unit is dead. It's brilliant...
Eh, yeah its possible but If I saw that on the table I would do everything in my power to make sure that battle squad never got even close to being within range.
Its like your counting on your opponent to just let it happen. And I wouldn't count on combos like that for my lists. Its very easy to see coming and you have to have both units very close to their target
Noir Eternal wrote: Eh, yeah its possible but If I saw that on the table I would do everything in my power to make sure that battle squad never got even close to being within range.
Its like your counting on your opponent to just let it happen. And I wouldn't count on combos like that for my lists
Well slaanesh is rediculously fast, can deep strike, and the psyker battle squad has a range of 36", so it would be hard to make sure that the power doesn't go off at least once or twice
And you think about it, even if it does only go off once, you are going to KILL a unit. The total cost of the herald and a 10 man pbs is like 175, so if the unit is worth more than that, you've made your points back in one go...
Noir Eternal wrote: Eh, yeah its possible but If I saw that on the table I would do everything in my power to make sure that battle squad never got even close to being within range.
Its like your counting on your opponent to just let it happen. And I wouldn't count on combos like that for my lists
Well slaanesh is rediculously fast, can deep strike, and the psyker battle squad has a range of 36", so it would be hard to make sure that the power doesn't go off at least once or twice
I have played around with something similar. Chaos Sorc with Shriek and a PBS. It never worked.
Ok I'll give you that your maybe able to get that off once or twice, but I would have rather Slaanesh being good on its own, and not needing another Codex that will probably lose that Psychic power once its redone to be good. And thats really the issue, alone or even with its brother codex Chaos Space Marines, the powers are terrible
For all the work GW put into defining the various types of allies, they sure are going out of their way to make sure that no benefits from one book can ever affect units from another, even when such things make perfect sense (Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons, or Black Templars and Eldar).
Yup, BA Chappy Honor of the Chapter, faqed to be for BA units only.
Same for all the Sm Chappys that comes from a 5th Dex.
nearly 80% of rules that affects numerous units, has been faqed as only working for that perticular codex units, so whats the point in taking allies?...
yeah you can still use their units, yadda,yadda, but it will be a portion of your army, who doesn't work with the rest of the army's rules, worst of it if some stuffs are taken as Allies, their rules and bonuses can only affect their detachment.
Also CSm and Deamons are maybe the only two armies who have Battle Brother, who isn't that much better then some Allies of Convinience(Circumstances?).
really, Thanks GW , you and your brillant mind plots...
yes. a unit cannot be joined by a unit with instability. also units with instability cant take IC's without it.
Do Heralds have Daemonic Instability? If not then they could join units from CSM
yes they do have DI
By the way,
The Changeling, Karanak and Skulltaker are now Heralds.
Can take up to 4 Heralds counting as 1 HQ slot in a Primary detachment.
Sorry if I'm splitting hairs here, but do the Special Character Heralds count as only taking up one in four, or do they take up a full slot because they are a special character?
Raziel on the warp storm table (based on my translation the other day)
5: its correct but its "ignores cover and barrage" wich does pinning but also hase different applications on ruins and buildings with multiple platforms. also you can "snipe" models with the plate this way because of how barrage works. cover is also taken differently.
6: accurate but the player wich owns the unit decides wich models are hit
7: accurate
8: accurate
9: also accurate but still its barrage so also able to snipe with it like the tzeentch one. aswell as pinning.
yes. a unit cannot be joined by a unit with instability. also units with instability cant take IC's without it.
Do Heralds have Daemonic Instability? If not then they could join units from CSM
yes they do have DI
By the way,
The Changeling, Karanak and Skulltaker are now Heralds.
Can take up to 4 Heralds counting as 1 HQ slot in a Primary detachment.
Sorry if I'm splitting hairs here, but do the Special Character Heralds count as only taking up one in four, or do they take up a full slot because they are a special character?
the rule says this exactly:
Codex:Chaos Daemons wrote:Heralds of Chaos Each primary detachament in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos, chosen in any combination from the following models: *Herald of Khorne *Karanak *The Changeling *Herald of Nurgle *Skulltaker *Herald of Tzeentch *Epidimius *Herald of Slaanesh
This selection uses a single HQ slot from the force organisation chart, but the Heralds are otherwise treated as separate units.
Codex:Chaos Daemons wrote:Heralds of Chaos
Each primary detachament in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos, chosen in any combination from the following models:
*Herald of Khorne
*Karanak
*The Changeling
*Herald of Nurgle
*Skulltaker
*Herald of Tzeentch
*Epidimius
*Herald of Slaanesh
This selection uses a single HQ slot from the force organisation chart, but the Heralds are otherwise treated as separate units.
This must be missing the Blue Scribes and the Masque. They just released a Scribes model less than a year ago, they wouldn't get rid of them now. Plus I thought we already had confirmation on both of them?
Codex:Chaos Daemons wrote:Heralds of Chaos
Each primary detachament in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos, chosen in any combination from the following models:
*Herald of Khorne
*Karanak
*The Changeling
*Herald of Nurgle
*Skulltaker
*Herald of Tzeentch
*Epidimius
*Herald of Slaanesh
This selection uses a single HQ slot from the force organisation chart, but the Heralds are otherwise treated as separate units.
This must be missing the Blue Scribes and the Masque. They just released a Scribes model less than a year ago, they wouldn't get rid of them now. Plus I thought we already had confirmation on both of them?
Not gone, but apparently no longer Heralds either. Just HQ's now
I fully intend to get something up on my blog next week. Gonna have 10+ hours to spitball on my drive back from the Indy Open with some of the local guys so there should be some thoughts starting to come around
It's always nice to have people who enjoy your opinion on things
Why haven't you updated the URL in your profile to go to your blog? I know you've got a link in your sig, but are you still doing the painting service? If so, how come you don't have like a link from the painting service page to your blog?
Reading that warp storm table, the original german rumor was pretty close and unlike the Fantasy version, this one is pretty darn fool proof... until you blow yourself up.
H.B.M.C. wrote: For all the work GW put into defining the various types of allies, they sure are going out of their way to make sure that no benefits from one book can ever affect units from another, even when such things make perfect sense (Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons, or Black Templars and Eldar).
Well, in the case of CSM and CD, the main benefit of being battle brothers is going to be the ability to cast psychic powers on units from either codex.
At least to me it makes sense that CSMIC's can't join Daemon units (and vice versa) because although they're allies, they still are very different types of beings. I don't see CSM taking very well to taking direct oders from a full-on Daemon that has just materialized, and conversely I can't see Daemons themselves feeling goo about taking orders from a mortal.
When you get to other codexes, you still have a lot of cross-pollination between battle brothers. Not so much in the super-special rules that apply to all units within X" kind of things, but certainly when you're talking about an IC with a USR joining a unit and granting it onto them.
Hulksmash wrote: Not as good as a Tzeentch herald on disc with the +d6St power, daemonic weapon, and prescience joined to a 9 screamer unit
It's looking like this book, just like the CSM and DA, is going to provide a plethora of ways to play the army
Hulk,
Once you get your hands on the book make sure you post your initial thoughts ASAP.
I've always wanted to play a Daemons army since they released the last codex, but never pulled the trigger. I like what I'm reading here so far (minus all the random roll abilities that I'll have to figure out a way to keep track of for each model) but it looks SO very different from the last codex that I don't know where to begin...so I'm definitely looking for a non-jaded vet Daemon player (that would be you) to give me some good starting pointers to think about.
I fully intend to get something up on my blog next week. Gonna have 10+ hours to spitball on my drive back from the Indy Open with some of the local guys so there should be some thoughts starting to come around
It's always nice to have people who enjoy your opinion on things
Agreed. Can't wait. You are my go to for Daemon opinions.
Something of interest I don't think I've seen noted is that the banner doesn't say it has to start the turn on the board in order to guide in deep strikers like the ones in other codexes do, and the instruments let you bring another unit of Daemons in with you automatically when you pass your reserve roll (along with giving you rerolls on the Warp Storm nukes).
Edit: Also, to clarify the 3rd Slaanesh locus, it prevents the opposing player from refusing challenges and allows you to pick who accepts. You can still refuse a challenge with the herald if you so desire.
yakface wrote: Well, in the case of CSM and CD, the main benefit of being battle brothers is going to be the ability to cast psychic powers on units from either codex.
That makes it even more artificial. We can share our powers, but nothing else?
With CSM and CD there's already something of a built in mechanic - the Chaos Gods. Just allow units aligned with a specific Chaos God to benefit from the abilities/special rules/auras/banners/etc. of the same God, even if it's from the other book. It makes fluff sense, and it should be fairly easy to figure out.
It mightn't be balanced (but nothing about allies is balanced), but it wouldn't be as arbitrary or pointless as it is right now.
Codex:Chaos Daemons wrote:Heralds of Chaos
Each primary detachament in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos, chosen in any combination from the following models:
*Herald of Khorne
*Karanak
*The Changeling
*Herald of Nurgle
*Skulltaker
*Herald of Tzeentch
*Epidimius
*Herald of Slaanesh
This selection uses a single HQ slot from the force organisation chart, but the Heralds are otherwise treated as separate units.
This must be missing the Blue Scribes and the Masque. They just released a Scribes model less than a year ago, they wouldn't get rid of them now. Plus I thought we already had confirmation on both of them?
Not gone, but apparently no longer Heralds either. Just HQ's now
Are you sure they are HQ. I could see GW moving them to elite.
Fluff wise neither are heralds nor do they lead other deamons. Haven't seen any info on the blue scribes, hope they use the same mechanic as did in whfb. Wonder what invo the masque has. People are not going to like it when she stops their best cc unit from charging or stops their best dakka unit from shooting and end up focusing a lot of dakka at her..
Blue Scribes and Masque are both listed in the same area of the HQ section as the Heralds. However, neither are mentioned in the "Heralds of Chaos" section which says explicitly which units are part of the 4 for 1 deal. It might be FAQ'd in the future, but as written, they take a full HQ slot.
Edit: These 2 are the ones that are not Independant Characters. The "Heralds of Chaos" callout specifies that "Heralds of Chaos can form a unit on the tabletop as long as they all share the same daemonic alignment." which would not be valid if those two were included.
Hmmm, I'm already thinking up an army list with a pseudo-flying circus theme with this new codex.... though allied with CSM.
Daemon Prince w, Black Mace + 3 Heldrakes + 2 min-sized Cultist squads allied in with the supposed optimal build Bloodthirster at 280, and assuming another Daemon Prince at that price with a full squad of Screamers and Horrors.....
That's still under 2000 points and only the Heldrakes are in reserve (which can be trimmed depending on the need.
Gah, can't wait for this codex to officially come out!
In HQ Section Karanak and i think Der Wechelsbalg is the Changelin, but my German is a bit rusty...
karanak T5 W3 WS7 A4, Flesh Hounds T4 W2 WS5 .
When i look at this a allied detachment list is emerging for my CSM, Herald of Khorne on a Blood throne, 1 unit of Fleshounds+Karanak, Nurglings base as troop, and a Skull Canon or a Soulgrinder, Letters are laughable and you know my point of view on the new Crushers.
Skulltaker isn't even worth his 100pts, take a 45pts Herald, give a jugger+25(?), and a Axe of Khorne+Presence and another Major gift+ 3+ save, he does what the Skulltaker does and even better and is cheaper...
Of what i can make out of the Skull cannon(Schadelkanone), its S8 AP5!!!!, seriously AP5?..., but ignores Cover(with AP5 whats the point?...) and Grausige Schadel, is the rule about Khorne deamons assaulting through cover and count as having assault Nades.
Skulltaker is 45 more points than a Herald and that gets you 2 WS, 2BS, 3I, 1A, +3 to AS, EW, Soul Blaze, Decapitating Blow. You're stuck with lesser loci (for free, that's 10 points) and have to Challenge/accept. I'd say that's a pretty well spent 45 points.
Lou_Cypher wrote: Daemon Prince w, Black Mace + 3 Heldrakes + 2 min-sized Cultist squads allied in with the supposed optimal build Bloodthirster at 280, and assuming another Daemon Prince at that price with a full squad of Screamers and Horrors.....
I would expect the "Daemon princes as Heavy Support" to have a similar limitation to CSM's "Noise Marines as Troops," i.e., it only works in the Primary Detachment.
It is better than a basic Herald's. We'll assume a 60 pt base for the statline alone. Juggernaught options are equal, so we shall disregard those.
So, Presence of Adamantium Will? 10 pts by all accounts.
Axe of Khorne? 10 pt lesser gift.
3+ armor save? 20 pt minor gift
Skulltaker has surety in having the 3+ save in the first place.
So...what does Skulltaker have over the Herald?
Eternal Warrior for one, so no need to worry about any random git instant gibbing him, which makes the Juggernaught option all the more viable.
What you get with Skulltaker is surety and a far improved statline. With a basic Herald, you have versatility and the ability to build a character almost the equal of Khorne's Sacred Executioner. Advantage goes to Skulltaker if you want him to live. Advantage to Herald if you want to deal with Terminators...But I have a solution for that: Squad Champion!
Seriously, the squad champ is a beast. 2 Lesser gifts, 2 weapons, and he's now got 4 S6 (on charge) AP2 attacks. Beastly!
skarsol wrote: All that and EW on a 2 wound model is what you'd be willing to pay for? Okay, we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
I ran Skulltaker from day 1 with the current book. He is no longer the awesome sauce he was, but I will still bring him out once in a while as a speartip character for my Mono Khorne aspects.
I'm disappointed he can't go 1-1 with Draigo any longer...THAT was a hilarious thing to see, him taking on the best thing since sliced cheese and having them both bouncing off 2++s.
Lou_Cypher wrote: Daemon Prince w, Black Mace + 3 Heldrakes + 2 min-sized Cultist squads allied in with the supposed optimal build Bloodthirster at 280, and assuming another Daemon Prince at that price with a full squad of Screamers and Horrors.....
I would expect the "Daemon princes as Heavy Support" to have a similar limitation to CSM's "Noise Marines as Troops," i.e., it only works in the Primary Detachment.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Does seem odd that Skulltaker would be a Herald yet the Masque isn't.
The masque isn't in good standing with her god. She's cursed and other deamonetes won't follow her. Likewise the blue scribes just squabble with each other and cannot lead pink horrors or other deamons.
Going to take another random guess that they are intended to be a non hqhq like honor guard or IG priests
Lou_Cypher wrote: Daemon Prince w, Black Mace + 3 Heldrakes + 2 min-sized Cultist squads allied in with the supposed optimal build Bloodthirster at 280, and assuming another Daemon Prince at that price with a full squad of Screamers and Horrors.....
I would expect the "Daemon princes as Heavy Support" to have a similar limitation to CSM's "Noise Marines as Troops," i.e., it only works in the Primary Detachment.
I'd love to be wrong, though.
"Daemon Princes from this codex"
Right....?
He's suggesting a CSM army: DP-led (Black Mace), cultists, 3 Heldrakes. Then a Daemons allied detachment: Bloodthirster, Screamers, Horrors, and another Daemon Prince. That second Prince is either a Daemons HQ or Heavy Support, depending on if you can use the "take DP's as Heavy Support" option when it's not your primary detachment.
And the stat boosts are really only pretty on paper.
WS9?, once you are at 6 you hit nearly everything on 3's anyway, and there is only a few things with WS higher then 6(outside Special Chars, GD's and DP's)
BS9, don't care
Initiative 9?, apart for the Deamons in this dex, the only model who have a Init of 7, is Drazhar Master of the Blades(and maybe Alpha Stealers...)
The two really nice is the +1 A and the inbuilt 3+ save.
Personnaly i think the only way Skulltaker would have been fixed is if He whas the one that had the Warlord trait ID's in CC, instead of Skarbrand, who allready can do this with Smash...+ always wounding on 2+.
So EW is really the only thing that keeps me from grabing my Skulltaker model and throw it through the window...
Slayer le boucher wrote: WS9?, once you are at 6 you hit nearly everything on 3's anyway, and there is only a few things with WS higher then 6(outside Special Chars, GD's and DP's)
WS9 is the difference between a WS4 model hitting you on a 4+ or a 5+. There are just a few WS4 models in the game....
He's suggesting a CSM army: DP-led (Black Mace), cultists, 3 Heldrakes. Then a Daemons allied detachment: Bloodthirster, Screamers, Horrors, and another Daemon Prince. That second Prince is either a Daemons HQ or Heavy Support, depending on if you can use the "take DP's as Heavy Support" option when it's not your primary detachment.
Ah, I misunderstood. The callout works regardless of if it's your primary army. "If your army includes...", nothing about allied/primary/detachment.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Does seem odd that Skulltaker would be a Herald yet the Masque isn't.
The masque isn't in good standing with her god. She's cursed and other deamonetes won't follow her. Likewise the blue scribes just squabble with each other and cannot lead pink horrors or other deamons.
Going to take another random guess that they are intended to be a non hqhq like honor guard or IG priests
Die Maske des Slaanesh, HQ section, now not sure if it automatically means that she is an Herald, but even if she is cursed by Slaanesh, she is still an Herald, just like Skarbrand who's Exiled, but is still a GD of Khorne.
I wonder if the Herald of Slaanesh +5 ini thing is applied before or after assaulting through cover penalties. The reason I'm thinking it does is as such:
+5 is such strange number to increase initiative by when all the units that can be affected by it are at least i6 (11 initiative, yeah! Take that, space elves!), if not more. Why not just make it a flat 10? But then I got my math hat on. When a, let's say, Daemonette assaults through cover, she is smacked down to i1 (obviously afraid of stubbing her claw on a fallen branch). Normally this would be the end of it (and the Daemonette, as it happens), but, assuming the +5 is applied after the penalty, we have this little coincidence: a Daemonette with i6 (1+5=6, for all you mathhammer people out there). Now I could be mistaken, but that is the base initiative of your average Slaanesh Daemon.
Tell me if I'm stretching here. This sounds a bit conspiracy theoryish, even to me, but I really want my Slaanesh daemons to be viable :(
EDIT: Upon closer inspection, Daemonettes have i5 base. All is well in the world of math. Disregard the above ravings.
I'm really shocked that bloodcrushers only seem to have a 6+ armour save now, instead of the 3+ they had
Lots of changes in the list, some good, some bad
Requiem wrote: I'm really shocked that bloodcrushers only seem to have a 6+ armour save now, instead of the 3+ they had
Lots of changes in the list, some good, some bad
6+ saves are weird in general when everything is a Daemon with a 5++ to start with.
How does that even make any sense?
Are there times when a 6+ save are available when a 5++ fails to be used?
Shandara wrote: Only if the invulnerable save was removed somehow (Shieldbreaker from VIndicare for instance, but that only works on wargear, not special rules).
Perhaps there will be future rules that will eliminate 5++ saves, leaving Daemons with 6+ the ones laughing at their naked kin....
Sigvatr wrote: So many models with high T :( Great Unclean One with T7, hrmpf.
Don't feel too bad, nearly everything else can be breezed through with S6 Autocannons and S8 Missiles.
Reading the daemon special rules, it appears that CSM units cannot be joined by daemons.
"Daemons can only join units that are comprised entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)
Since CSM are not daemons, they are boned. The only battle brothers that cannot join each other's units.
This makes me a sad panda.
Yes, the way it works out is that CSM units and Daemon units cannot join each other.
Their less of battle brothers, and more of battle acquaintances.
They can cast powers on each other, and see each other at parties.
But don't really like hanging out that close. If a CSM lord invites a herald over for some beers, the herald will find that its busy that weekend.
labmouse42 wrote: Yes, the way it works out is that CSM units and Daemon units cannot join each other.
Their less of battle brothers, and more of battle acquaintances.
They can cast powers on each other, and see each other at parties.
But don't really like hanging out that close. If a CSM lord invites a herald over for some beers, the herald will find that its busy that weekend.
Thank you for making this analogy. I was going to start making "back of the bus/separate water fountain" analogies, but you saved me from having to go there.
labmouse42 wrote: Yes, the way it works out is that CSM units and Daemon units cannot join each other.
Their less of battle brothers, and more of battle acquaintances.
They can cast powers on each other, and see each other at parties.
But don't really like hanging out that close. If a CSM lord invites a herald over for some beers, the herald will find that its busy that weekend.
Thank you for making this analogy. I was going to start making "back of the bus/separate water fountain" analogies, but you saved me from having to go there.
Chaos Furies are a 5-daemon squad for 35 points, but additional ones cost 6 points each. Typo? They don't come with an upgrade option for a squad leader anyways.
Shandara wrote: Chaos Furies are a 5-daemon squad for 35 points, but additional ones cost 6 points each. Typo? They don't come with an upgrade option for a squad leader anyways.
Also.. leadership 2. O.o
Leadership is only for purposes of daemonic instability. Your right thought, if they fail a combat, they fail hard.
Your 'entry' cost to the squad is 7 points per model. After you unlocked it you can get them for 6 points per model.
For T3, 1 attack models....these look like garbage man.
But at 6 points per model with a 5++ save and jump pack infantry -- their fast and cheap garbage.
Maybe decent for contesting?
Ick, looks like Chaos Furies are completely useless now. LD 2???? Seriously? Combined with the reduced stats from last edition, there is no way I'm going to bother with these guys. Its a shame, because I like the idea of a "generic" daemon that can be tweaked with marks.
Shandara wrote: Chaos Furies are a 5-daemon squad for 35 points, but additional ones cost 6 points each. Typo? They don't come with an upgrade option for a squad leader anyways.
Also.. leadership 2. O.o
Leadership is only for purposes of daemonic instability. Your right thought, if they fail a combat, they fail hard.
Your 'entry' cost to the squad is 7 points per model. After you unlocked it you can get them for 6 points per model.
For T3, 1 attack models....these look like garbage man.
But at 6 points per model with a 5++ save and jump pack infantry -- their fast and cheap garbage.
Maybe decent for contesting?
If they counted as Troops, I could see a use for them, but as fast attack (a somewhat crowded slot as it is), I just don't see me ever using them. Maybe if they carried over the stat line from the last codex, but now?
Does anyone know what the marks cost is for Furies (can they even be marked??)
I'm glad I sold my Furies when I did. Got a decent price for them. But if a Herald of something could fly or Calvary whilst joined to them, then the Furies could be a cheap fast meat-shield, like CSM Spawns.
Those Beasts of Nurgle are really pricey, are they good now? Are they actually Beasts? If so I may have to build and paint some more. I'm hoping the Plague Drones have some sort of vomit spew attack, or Slashy thing like Screamers, something.
I'm guessing Skarbrand still can't fly, and they still reward enemies with his Endless Rage Bellow or whatever....and many other things in this Codex appear to reward enemies or punish my own Daemons as much as punish the enemy (ie. Warplame, Warpstorm, who knows what else....) I guess that's just Chaos, but I'm unsure how competitive this Codex will be. Battlecannons will rip apart Screamers and Flamers and Fiends from across the table; there are many ranged weapons to ignore cover, therefore ignoring the Nurgle Shrouded effects, just not sounding very awesome to me at the moment. I think the idea was to make the Daemons method of play more versatile, but I fear their limitations will narrow the field of what people can do with them.
Overall the Daemons sound vastly less resilient. But though my poor Flamers are now severely nerfed to the point of near-uselessness, I'm looking forward to many more synergies between Daemons and CSM because of the weird powers, and Divnination availability. This will certainly mix things up and change everyone's game in a drastic way.
From what I know, the beasts of nurgle gained an extra wound, it will not die, feel no pain (Ironically, when other nurgle stuff lost it, I guess you can't take a herald with beasts though to give them it) Shrouded, they became beasts, and there is even a rumour they became some kind of "Monstrous beasts" like mini monstrous creatures, but I find this one a little hard to beleive in truth.
Evileyes wrote: From what I know, the beasts of nurgle gained an extra wound, it will not die, feel no pain (Ironically, when other nurgle stuff lost it, I guess you can't take a herald with beasts though to give them it) Shrouded, they became beasts, and there is even a rumour they became some kind of "Monstrous beasts" like mini monstrous creatures, but I find this one a little hard to beleive in truth.
Codex:Chaos Daemons wrote:
Heralds of Chaos
Each primary detachament in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos, chosen in any combination from the following models:
*Herald of Khorne
*Karanak
*The Changeling
*Herald of Nurgle
*Skulltaker
*Herald of Tzeentch
*Epidimius
*Herald of Slaanesh
This selection uses a single HQ slot from the force organisation chart, but the Heralds are otherwise treated as separate units
Am I reading this wrong, or does this say that 4 Heralds count as a single HQ?
Noir Eternal wrote: A whole squad of Ork boys, are you serious? Like the squad that has a LD equal to the number of Boys up to 10? So maybe if there are about 5 boys left, and they repeated failed a still relatively easy LD until they all died you may kill them.
But a warp charge 2 power to kill a couple low point models? Not very impressive....at all
I'm talking about the combination of psyker battle squad and that power. It would kill any single-wound-per-model unit that doesn't have an invuln. Reduce their leadership to 2, then make them take tests and they will lose models until they roll double 1s or until the unit is dead. It's brilliant...
Yeah... this ain't a big deal. Also, not going to work with large Ork squads (Mob Rule).
The have the ability to "charge/Assault" an enemy unit (within 12") and that has successfully charge one or more of your units, during your enemies assault phase.
So, your opponent declare a charge against your Horrors, and makes it into BTB. Your Beasts MUST now charge the enemy, so long as that unit is within 12"
So your Beasts "Charge" into that Assault because they are "Attention Seekers" LOL
Codex:Chaos Daemons wrote:
Heralds of Chaos
Each primary detachament in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos, chosen in any combination from the following models:
*Herald of Khorne
*Karanak
*The Changeling
*Herald of Nurgle
*Skulltaker
*Herald of Tzeentch
*Epidimius
*Herald of Slaanesh
This selection uses a single HQ slot from the force organisation chart, but the Heralds are otherwise treated as separate units
Am I reading this wrong, or does this say that 4 Heralds count as a single HQ?
Correct, but you can only take 4 in a Primary detachment so, you are not going to get 8 Heralds for 2 HQ slots.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Ick, looks like Chaos Furies are completely useless now. LD 2???? Seriously? Combined with the reduced stats from last edition, there is no way I'm going to bother with these guys. Its a shame, because I like the idea of a "generic" daemon that can be tweaked with marks.
There is 1 reason I would consider bringing them.
At 6 points a pop they are dirt cheap. 20 of them is 120 points.
You can use them for late game contesting (or scoring if your playing "The Scouring"). You can use 20 of them to go after things like long fangs. Remember they have a 5++.
Remember, the LD only matters for daemonic instability. They don't fall back from getting shot up. They don't make pinning tests. They just need to make it when failing assaults.
I just realized that nuglings have a BS3 now and a BS is the only requirement to fire emplacements right? If so, I think I found some fun modeling opportunities with nurglings firing quad guns and heavy bolters..
ClassicCarraway wrote: Ick, looks like Chaos Furies are completely useless now. LD 2???? Seriously? Combined with the reduced stats from last edition, there is no way I'm going to bother with these guys. Its a shame, because I like the idea of a "generic" daemon that can be tweaked with marks.
There is 1 reason I would consider bringing them.
At 6 points a pop they are dirt cheap. 20 of them is 120 points.
You can use them for late game contesting (or scoring if your playing "The Scouring"). You can use 20 of them to go after things like long fangs. Remember they have a 5++.
Remember, the LD only matters for daemonic instability. They don't fall back from getting shot up. They don't make pinning tests. They just need to make it when failing assaults.
Since daemons can still deep strike, mobility isn't such an issue. But for 2 points more, they could be tougher plaguebearers, psyker pink horrors, or quick quick daemonettes. All 3 of which are more capable of defending themselves than furies, for only a few points more.
Swara wrote: I just realized that nuglings have a BS3 now and a BS is the only requirement to fire emplacements right? If so, I think I found some fun modeling opportunities with nurglings firing quad guns and heavy bolters..
That would be funny to see, it'd be like watching little children play with an AA gun.
Swara wrote: I just realized that nuglings have a BS3 now and a BS is the only requirement to fire emplacements right? If so, I think I found some fun modeling opportunities with nurglings firing quad guns and heavy bolters..
That would be funny to see, it'd be like watching little children play with an AA gun.
Custom daemon fortress of redemption manned completely by nuglings. Put some little IG hats on them and some cigars.
Nothing can go wrong with Nuglings covering you with high powered guns.
Khorne should be the best at all things martial. That includes shooting in the future
Pretty awesome that nurglings can fire gun emplacements though. I haven't modeled any of the older ones but aren't they so short you couldn't see them over the wall?
Hulksmash wrote: Khorne should be the best at all things martial. That includes shooting in the future
Pretty awesome that nurglings can fire gun emplacements though. I haven't modeled any of the older ones but aren't they so short you couldn't see them over the wall?
I'm tempted to buy another gun and have it swarmed over with nurglings.
Hulksmash wrote: Khorne should be the best at all things martial. That includes shooting in the future
Pretty awesome that nurglings can fire gun emplacements though. I haven't modeled any of the older ones but aren't they so short you couldn't see them over the wall?
They can just lift each other up so they can see, or pile up together.
Nope. So they are pretty vulnerable to things like battlecannons. Still 15 points though and now have shrouded, so they'll have a 2+ cover behind an aegis if I remember correctly.
Nope. So they are pretty vulnerable to things like battlecannons. Still 15 points though and now have shrouded, so they'll have a 2+ cover behind an aegis if I remember correctly.
So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?
And 1 extra wound and attack as well as infiltrate. Not horrible buggers if you can avoid the high strength blasts that'll destroy em pretty bad.
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matphat wrote: So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?
I could see it going either way. You either have large groups supported by heralds or small groups for objective grabing and then have elites do the pushing. Even a flying circus is mostly viable.
Blah!
I LIKE running my troops, But I just got finished painting an Ork horde, and I DON'T WANNA paint another 100 models! Even if Horrors are dead simple to build and paint.
=(
matphat wrote: So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?
You can have 4 FMCs and a Greater Deamon in one army...
matphat wrote:So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?
Some test games need to be played to see.
I am not sold on the FMC route. Sure, you can bring 5 FMCs, but they can die very easily. Each MC has 5 wounds and most are bringing a 5++ save.
It might work, and will require some testing to see.
Damons still have screamers/flamers which are very good choices.
Still, it seems to me like MSU is not that hot of an option for daemons.
matphat wrote:So, with all the page leaks out, is the general consensus building that Daemons are going to be strictly horde?
Are there going to be any options to keep the army low model count and elite?
Some test games need to be played to see.
I am not sold on the FMC route. Sure, you can bring 5 FMCs, but they can die very easily. Each MC has 5 wounds and most are bringing a 5++ save.
It might work, and will require some testing to see.
Damons still have screamers/flamers which are very good choices.
Still, it seems to me like MSU is not that hot of an option for daemons.
MSU does seem like the less viable option, which I'm ok with. I don't think I'd try a flying circus though, in the previous codex, I think the other FMCs really relied on Fateweaver to survive. With his abilities changed, and invul saves in general being made worse, I'm not sure I want to spend the points in all those pricey units that no longer have EW. I'll try it out, but I'm thinking I'll go with more, larger troop units and add a bunch of heralds. I might even pick up some chariots.
While I'm sad that my current list (Flying Circus) doesn't seem viable anymore, I'm Ok with it as I've felt that Fateweaver has been a bit of a crutch for me. He's been a must-include for any Daemon army I've made.
Also, didn't Flamers get a nerf? What happened to Breath of Chaos?
Flamers now just have a STR 4, AP4 flamer. Much like any other flamer.
While its a huge nurf, it was a needed nurf. They were really over the top.
Assuming you get 5 guys under each flamer template, flamers will still crush squad they get close to.
9 * 5 = 45 hits.
Vs T4 thats 22.5 wounds. Goodbye ork squad.
Vs MEQ thats 7.5 dead marines. Goodbye marine squad.
As you can see, they still flame things dead. They are just not completely broken like the were before the update.
What do people who're familiar with pysker stuff think of the new Fateweaver? He can access any spell from any school, but has had his support aspect completely removed.
skarsol wrote: 1 spell from each school, with access to only half of them each turn, and 1 d6 reroll isn't a whole lot imo.
I'm going to try the big chicken, but I doubt I'll use him as much as I used to. Although I don't think he'll have quite the target priority that he used to.
Today, I had the chance to look into the new codex.
Well, from the structure it looks like the CSM codex, with psychic powers for the three gods.
Here are some random thoughts:
Daemonic instability is as it basically was in the previous incarnation with exceptions if double 1 or double 6 is rolled.
DPs are in the HQ section.
Greater Daemons can make DPs heavy support of the same god.
DPs can get iron hide and wings that makes them 205 pts before any mark. Marks are 10 to 25 pts.
MoN gives shrouding (+2 on cover save).
Troops are rather cheap, models cost 9 to 10 pts. Bloodletters have AP3 weapons.
Nurglings got boosted a bit.
Flamers cost the same as in the errata but got nerfed a bit with an S4 AP4 flamer.
Screamers are still jetbikes with 3 attacks which can be replaced by one S5 AP2 attack, with 2D6 vs tanks.
Well, a guy with the Codex just said there isn't a unit called Warp Stalker in the codex.. So i guess the Leaked release list really was fake, unless its a Fantasy unit.
HawkWall wrote: Well, a guy with the Codex just said there isn't a unit called Warp Stalker in the codex.. So i guess the Leaked release list really was fake, unless its a Fantasy unit.
You mean that one from last year that had the allies and such on it? Yeah, kinda figured.
BryllCream wrote: What do people who're familiar with pysker stuff think of the new Fateweaver? He can access any spell from any school, but has had his support aspect completely removed.
I think hes a complete support role now, just in a different way.
Fateweaver's job is now to stay back and bolt the heck out of units, the flame another. He can then buff his own allies with prescience. Being a level 4 psyker, he has a lot of options.
I'm surprised by the screamer thing. Are their normal attacks still AP2? Or no AP at all? I ask because everyone else who's seen the codex said there was no change to the horrors but they could have misinterpretted the trade all attacks for one part of the rule.
HawkWall wrote: Well, a guy with the Codex just said there isn't a unit called Warp Stalker in the codex.. So i guess the Leaked release list really was fake, unless its a Fantasy unit.
You mean that one from last year that had the allies and such on it? Yeah, kinda figured.
Yeah, someone really went out of their way to do it.
Well, i think that buries the sisters of battle pretty deep then.
wuestenfux wrote: Today, I had the chance to look into the new codex.
Well, from the structure it looks like the CSM codex, with psychic powers for the three gods.
Here are some random thoughts:
Daemonic instability is as it basically was in the previous incarnation with exceptions if double 1 or double 6 is rolled.
DPs are in the HQ section.
Greater Daemons can make DPs heavy support of the same god.
DPs can get iron hide and wings that makes them 205 pts before any mark. Marks are 10 to 25 pts.
MoN gives shrouding (+2 on cover save).
Troops are rather cheap, models cost 9 to 10 pts. Bloodletters have AP3 weapons.
Nurglings got boosted a bit.
Flamers cost the same as in the errata but got nerfed a bit with an S4 AP4 flamer.
Screamers are still jetbikes with 3 attacks which can be replaced by one S5 AP2 attack, with 2D6 vs tanks.
They have to swap for only 1 attack?! That's... Well... Crappy.
Its good at killing vehicles, can do flyby attacks over light armored units, is a jetbike, and can do an AP2 attack.
All in all, its still pretty strong. Its just no longer waaaay OP
wuestenfux wrote: Today, I had the chance to look into the new codex.
Well, from the structure it looks like the CSM codex, with psychic powers for the three gods.
Here are some random thoughts:
Daemonic instability is as it basically was in the previous incarnation with exceptions if double 1 or double 6 is rolled.
DPs are in the HQ section.
Greater Daemons can make DPs heavy support of the same god.
DPs can get iron hide and wings that makes them 205 pts before any mark. Marks are 10 to 25 pts.
MoN gives shrouding (+2 on cover save).
Troops are rather cheap, models cost 9 to 10 pts. Bloodletters have AP3 weapons.
Nurglings got boosted a bit.
Flamers cost the same as in the errata but got nerfed a bit with an S4 AP4 flamer.
Screamers are still jetbikes with 3 attacks which can be replaced by one S5 AP2 attack, with 2D6 vs tanks.
They have to swap for only 1 attack?! That's... Well... Crappy.
Phil: "Cruddace, we have to stop the dangers of an overpowered unit!"
Cruddace: "But Phil, whatever shall we do? We've nerfed the crap out of the codex already! Surely we can't do another unit, can't we?"
Phil: "That's what they will think, muhahahahahh!"
labmouse42 wrote: Flamers now just have a STR 4, AP4 flamer. Much like any other flamer.
While its a huge nurf, it was a needed nurf. They were really over the top.
Assuming you get 5 guys under each flamer template, flamers will still crush squad they get close to.
9 * 5 = 45 hits.
Vs T4 thats 22.5 wounds. Goodbye ork squad.
Vs MEQ thats 7.5 dead marines. Goodbye marine squad.
As you can see, they still flame things dead. They are just not completely broken like the were before the update.
nice but there are helldrakes too and it would suck to have an army which dies as soon as your opponent comes and he brings in 2-3 baledrakes.
Hulksmash wrote: I'm surprised by the screamer thing. Are their normal attacks still AP2? Or no AP at all? I ask because everyone else who's seen the codex said there was no change to the horrors but they could have misinterpretted the trade all attacks for one part of the rule.
Well, I think its AP - just normal attacks.
By the way, the illustrations are rather underwhelming.
I am trying not to get sad from reading these rumors but it seems my current Daemon army got hit very hard from the Nerf Bat.
I do hope Fatey is still worth taking as I spent ages painting that model. At least my Blood Crushers can be converted into Khorne CSM bikes. I am glad i only have 9 Flamers too lol.
Whats everyone takes on Daemons being Allies with CSM? With such cheap scoring units I can see a whole a lot of benefits. I do like the 9 Screamers + Herald on a Disc DeathStar running with CSM Bikes or Spawn to put the pressure on straight away
From Faeit212:
Klaus SchächnerFebruary 28, 2013 at 9:39 AM
Icons and Banners act like homing beacons for deep striking units.
If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from the same deity, they don't scatter within 6" of the icon.
If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from different deities, the deep striking unit (when aiming for a spot within 6" of the icon) only scatters 1D6" instead of 2D6"
If one of the units (icon or deep striking) hasn't got the Daemon special rule, the icon has no effect whatsoever.
Standard icon costs 10 points, +10 points for a god specific icon.
There are several different icons for the different gods:
Khorne: Unit may attack 6+D6" (once per game)
Tzeentch: Inflicts 2D6 S4 AP- hits to a unit you shoot at (must declare before; once per game)
Nurgle: All attacks count as Poison (2+) (must declare before close combat; once per game)
Slaanesh: In close combat: takes D3 WS from enemy units in combat; Slaanesh units are immune (once per game)
Instruments have two purposes:
1) If a unit with an instruments comes into game via reserve, you can immediately get another daemon unit out of reserve (they don't have to roll)
2) If you roll on the warpstorm table and get e.g. the result where Khorne attacks Slaanesh units, you may re-roll ONE DIE that could be harmful for your Slaanesh models PER instrument of Khorne in your army and on the table (and of course in any other god combination, too).
Hulksmash wrote: I'm surprised by the screamer thing. Are their normal attacks still AP2? Or no AP at all? I ask because everyone else who's seen the codex said there was no change to the horrors but they could have misinterpretted the trade all attacks for one part of the rule.
Screamers regular attacks are AP -. They can trade all of their attacks for 1 Strength 5, AP 2 Armorbane one. The move over vector slashing thing is still the same though.
My initial impression so far:
-Vanilla Greater Daemons are much better than named ones. This is mainly because you can up their psyker level, and take Daemonic Gifts. I expect GDs will almost always be rolling twice on the greater Daemon chart, and upping their Psyker level.
-Only the Changeling and Horrors are restricted to choosing from their God Lore. GUOs can take ML 3 and get 3 rolls on biomancy....
-Horrors are pretty bad, even with a herald. They DO NOT go up in Mastery level as the squad size increases, they only gain Warpcharges. So, you only get one power, and the only one you would ever take is the Primaris. Even with 3 Warp Charges, and the Strength
boost from the Locus, and a rerolls to hit from the Primaris Divination, you're only on average killing 4 marines. Warpflame is also terrible.
-Nurgle seems to come out on top, as far as troops go. You can give them FNP with a locus, and the Herald with a Balesword can be pretty nasty in challenges.
- I think the Soulgrinder will be the go to Heavy support choice. Comes standard with a powerfist, and a 3 Shot autocannon that you can use Skyfire with. You can then choose to upgrade a Mawcannon, with 1 of three choices, to fit in with the rest of your list.
-Screamers are still good, just not as good. Flamers are still pretty good, just not as good. Bloodcrushers are T4 with 3W and Cav now. Time will tell if they are good.
-There is something for every god here. There really are not a lot of bad choices in this book. The Gift charts are actually really good. The best thing is you can always swap for a Primaris.
Mohoc wrote: From Faeit212:
Klaus SchächnerFebruary 28, 2013 at 9:39 AM
Icons and Banners act like homing beacons for deep striking units.
If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from the same deity, they don't scatter within 6" of the icon.
If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from different deities, the deep striking unit (when aiming for a spot within 6" of the icon) only scatters 1D6" instead of 2D6"
If one of the units (icon or deep striking) hasn't got the Daemon special rule, the icon has no effect whatsoever.
Standard icon costs 10 points, +10 points for a god specific icon.
There are several different icons for the different gods:
Khorne: Unit may attack 6+D6" (once per game)
Tzeentch: Inflicts 2D6 S4 AP- hits to a unit you shoot at (must declare before; once per game)
Nurgle: All attacks count as Poison (2+) (must declare before close combat; once per game)
Slaanesh: In close combat: takes D3 WS from enemy units in combat; Slaanesh units are immune (once per game)
Instruments have two purposes:
1) If a unit with an instruments comes into game via reserve, you can immediately get another daemon unit out of reserve (they don't have to roll)
2) If you roll on the warpstorm table and get e.g. the result where Khorne attacks Slaanesh units, you may re-roll ONE DIE that could be harmful for your Slaanesh models PER instrument of Khorne in your army and on the table (and of course in any other god combination, too).
Instruments of Chaos cost 10 points.
Note that icons work even if they didnt start the turn on the table. If you have icon and instrument you can DS in then bring in another same godunit without scattering.
So if all of your units have banner/instrument you basically daisy chain all of your reserves right onto the field? Now I wonder if you can fail the reserve roll with a unit then still force them to come in via the instrument. So you basically can never fail reserves if you wish, as long as at least one unit passes the reserve roll.
It doesn't chain. It triggers on passing the roll and the 2nd unit doesn't roll. It also specifically excludes units that have failed their roll already.
Just realized you only take ONE locus, and even with multiple heralds only the highest works. What the hell kelly? Half those powers aren't worth taking over others!
skarsol wrote: If they're not worth taking, then no great loss that they don't stack, neh?
Actually what I was meaning, was that they would be worthwhile if they could be taken together, but with being only able to take one that drastically reduces the use of some of them down to specific choices.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Just realized you only take ONE locus, and even with multiple heralds only the highest works. What the hell kelly? Half those powers aren't worth taking over others!
I don' think you would generally take more than one Locus though.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Just realized you only take ONE locus, and even with multiple heralds only the highest works. What the hell kelly? Half those powers aren't worth taking over others!
I don' think you would generally take more than one Locus though.
-Vanilla Greater Daemons are much better than named ones. This is mainly because you can up their psyker level, and take Daemonic Gifts. I expect GDs will almost always be rolling twice on the greater Daemon chart, and upping their Psyker level.
KoS is already psycher level 1, so that matches the DP cost (25). Both can go to Psycher level 3 for 50 more points. Both can take 50 points in gifts. Daemon of Slaanesh is another 10 points already paid for in the KoS. Prince has the options of flight and armor, for more points. KoS is a much better deal if you don't need a flyer/3+/Biomancy.
Hulksmash wrote: I'm surprised by the screamer thing. Are their normal attacks still AP2? Or no AP at all? I ask because everyone else who's seen the codex said there was no change to the horrors but they could have misinterpretted the trade all attacks for one part of the rule.
Screamers regular attacks are AP -. They can trade all of their attacks for 1 Strength 5, AP 2 Armorbane one. The move over vector slashing thing is still the same though.
My initial impression so far:
-Vanilla Greater Daemons are much better than named ones. This is mainly because you can up their psyker level, and take Daemonic Gifts. I expect GDs will almost always be rolling twice on the greater Daemon chart, and upping their Psyker level.
-Only the Changeling and Horrors are restricted to choosing from their God Lore. GUOs can take ML 3 and get 3 rolls on biomancy....
-Horrors are pretty bad, even with a herald. They DO NOT go up in Mastery level as the squad size increases, they only gain Warpcharges. So, you only get one power, and the only one you would ever take is the Primaris. Even with 3 Warp Charges, and the Strength
boost from the Locus, and a rerolls to hit from the Primaris Divination, you're only on average killing 4 marines. Warpflame is also terrible.
-Nurgle seems to come out on top, as far as troops go. You can give them FNP with a locus, and the Herald with a Balesword can be pretty nasty in challenges.
- I think the Soulgrinder will be the go to Heavy support choice. Comes standard with a powerfist, and a 3 Shot autocannon that you can use Skyfire with. You can then choose to upgrade a Mawcannon, with 1 of three choices, to fit in with the rest of your list.
-Screamers are still good, just not as good. Flamers are still pretty good, just not as good. Bloodcrushers are T4 with 3W and Cav now. Time will tell if they are good.
-There is something for every god here. There really are not a lot of bad choices in this book. The Gift charts are actually really good. The best thing is you can always swap for a Primaris.
Horrors will be far from useless.
Horrors in ruins + area terrain or behind an aegis+ go to ground= cannot be shot off an objective without shots that ignore cover.
4+ cover goes to 2+ and Tzeentch deamons reroll 1s on failed cover saves=an average of 36 wounds to kill 1 horror=360 wounds needed to kill a 90 point scoring unit.
-Vanilla Greater Daemons are much better than named ones. This is mainly because you can up their psyker level, and take Daemonic Gifts. I expect GDs will almost always be rolling twice on the greater Daemon chart, and upping their Psyker level.
KoS is already psycher level 1, so that matches the DP cost (25). Both can go to Psycher level 3 for 50 more points. Both can take 50 points in gifts. Daemon of Slaanesh is another 10 points already paid for in the KoS. Prince has the options of flight and armor, for more points. KoS is a much better deal if you don't need a flyer/3+/Biomancy.
He was talking about the normal greater daemons vs. the named ones. Like GUO versus Ku'gath.
Makumba wrote:nice but there are helldrakes too and it would suck to have an army which dies as soon as your opponent comes and he brings in 2-3 baledrakes.
I have no idea what you mean with that sentence. Are you trying to say that helldrakes are better than flamers?
Nakor The BlueRider wrote:Whats everyone takes on Daemons being Allies with CSM? With such cheap scoring units I can see a whole a lot of benefits. I do like the 9 Screamers + Herald on a Disc DeathStar running with CSM Bikes or Spawn to put the pressure on straight away
Daemons offer some really good deck-chair units. Plague bearers are smashingly good at squatting on objectives and going to ground. I would rather have them over cultists any day of the week.
Aside from that, daemons can offer some cheap bodies, and fast moving bodies to throw at your enemy.
Sasori wrote:-Horrors are pretty bad, even with a herald. They DO NOT go up in Mastery level as the squad size increases, they only gain Warpcharges. So, you only get one power, and the only one you would ever take is the Primaris. Even with 3 Warp Charges, and the Strength
boost from the Locus, and a rerolls to hit from the Primaris Divination, you're only on average killing 4 marines. Warpflame is also terrible.
I agree with most of your assements, but here we diverge.
Take 20 horrors. Add a herald, make him a level 2 psyker with exaulted locus of conjuration. Take the primary from divination and change. Cast prescience on the horror unit every turn from the herald, who gets 2 warp charge spells per turn.
Your horrors then shoot 4d6STR 6 attacks hitting 75% of the time.
Your herald shoots 2d6STR 6 attacks hitting 89% of the time.
You hit 16.73 times, you wound 13.94 times, and 4.64 MEQ die.
Your saying "Only kills 4 MEQ" but to get that same result, you would need to fire 41.55 bolter shots! Your saying that one squad of horrors + herald have as much firepower at 21 MEQ within rapid fire range. How is that bad again?
Since the horrors are STR 6 as well, your also a threat to vehicles - particular flyers. The horror unit will snap shot and hit flyers with ~6.3 STR 6 hits per turn. That's going to do some damage to night scythes,
Sasori wrote:-Nurgle seems to come out on top, as far as troops go. You can give them FNP with a locus, and the Herald with a Balesword can be pretty nasty in challenges.
I think slaanesh is also something to be feared. Daemonettes are moving ~13.5" a turn. On turn two, they will have a respectable assault range of 26.5" from their starting point. This means they will be on you by turn 2 or 3. That's a lot of rending attacks in your face.
Ooooh, I play Slaanesh and we don't get one of those, so I guess that's where my confusion came from.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
labmouse42 wrote: I think slaanesh is also something to be feared. Daemonettes are moving ~13.5" a turn. On turn two, they will have a respectable assault range of 26.5" from their starting point. This means they will be on you by turn 2 or 3. That's a lot of rending attacks in your face.
And seekers add 9"/turn to that + an attack and HoW for 3 points per...
No doubt. I'm putting 40 seekers on order next paycheck. At 12 points a model they are crazy.
Add in 2 heralds and you can have some pretty good facekicking in before the rest of the party shows up.
Speaking of heralds. Khorne Heralds on Juggernauts are sick.
For example, look at what a 110 point herald of Khorne gives you. It wields an AP2 weapon that causes ID on 'to wound' rolls of a 6.
WS...BS....S....T....W....I.....A....Ld....Sv ....7.....7.....5....5....3.....6....4.....8.....6
That statline and AP2 weapon is enough to make a C:SM captain cry himself to sleep at night.
I am curious to see what happens when I stick 2 of those in 2 squads of bloodletters, which are close on the heels of the 40 seekers mentioned earlier.
labmouse42 wrote: No doubt. I'm putting 40 seekers on order next paycheck. At 12 points a model they are crazy.
Add in 2 heralds and you can have some pretty good facekicking in before the rest of the party shows up.
Or outflank them and be fairly confident they'll get where they're needed at the same time as everyone else.
Outflanking is nice b/c it lets you get them where you want them to be.
It's not nice because you are assaulting on turn 3 at the earliest. If you could still assault from reserve it would be awesome.
That one turn with having "whatever daemonettes have" hanging in the wind could be very bad.
IMHO rending got a lot better in this edition. Or at least, it stayed as useful when power weapons were nurfed.
BTW don't bother to check Warseer for rumours and discussion of the new Daemons Codex. A mod rage-locked the thread today. The thread on Tyranids in March is still open though
Yeah, I noticed that last night. Didn't care enough to scroll back and see why. I have the codex though if anyone still has questions, although it seems like most of the info has been spoiled already.
I'll likely be bringing a big Tzeentch bird to my CSM force to gain acces to Divination. And since it seems it will be a better psyker AND CC beast then the Daemon Prince, it should be alright.
Then a small pool of scoring troops to sit on objectives, and a Soul Grinder to replace my chaos vindicator when I want to splurge.
So far, it seems decent. Very radical in its reshuffling of what is good and what is crap, which is always a problem in my book, but the end result seems playable, as long as you cave the $$$ to adapt to the new horde paradigm.
Do Pink Horrors have any shooting that isn't a psychic power? Not loving that my 20-man squad can end up with 4 shots due to bad dice, or that the enemy can Deny the Witch and cancel out my shooting.
Sephyr wrote: So far, it seems decent. Very radical in its reshuffling of what is good and what is crap, which is always a problem in my book, but the end result seems playable, as long as you cave the $$$ to adapt to the new horde paradigm.
Advantage to those of us with Fantasy Daemon armies; we already have large numbers of daemons lying around.
Kroothawk wrote: BTW don't bother to check Warseer for rumours and discussion of the new Daemons Codex. A mod rage-locked the thread today. The thread on Tyranids in March is still open though
Yeah that moderator sure likes to show of. Quite pathetic...
Hulksmash wrote: What does the torrent flamer upgrade cost on the Soul Grinder and what are it's stats?
At Faeit I read that it's S6 and AP3!!! If that's the case then... Christ... A Dreadnought with tiny weeny arms have S10 but such huge claws S6 and AP3. If that's the case, then GW will never sell me a Defiler or Soul Grinder...
Hulksmash wrote: What does the torrent flamer upgrade cost on the Soul Grinder and what are it's stats?
At Faeit I read that it's S6 and AP3!!! If that's the case then... Christ... A Dreadnought with tiny weeny arms have S10 but such huge claws S6 and AP3. If that's the case, then GW will never sell me a Defiler or Soul Grinder...
That's what I thought too. Helps you deal with horde armies that can shoot and whittle down your own horde of gribblies. Things like 30 Shoota boy mobs or Blob Platoons.
I'm still shooting mostly in the dark but this book could see a shift overall away from blob squads. Right now I'm looking at adding 60 models to my CSM lists for 600pts. And they will be absolutely lethal.
MandalorynOranj wrote: Do Pink Horrors have any shooting that isn't a psychic power? Not loving that my 20-man squad can end up with 4 shots due to bad dice, or that the enemy can Deny the Witch and cancel out my shooting.
Not seen anything that indicates their standard warpfire is gone, but if they have not changed it to do less shot's or something...then my god these thing's would be monsters
Daemons are looking less and less appealing as a primary force the more little bits get released (e.g. the actually rather large nerf to screamers). Allies to my CSM looks like the way to go.
Edit: By the way, a good tactic for Horrors now appears to have a single model in LOS of the enemy and he can (it appears) be the source for all the psychic shooting attacks, and you only expose 1 model a turn to actual shooting casualties. Presumably you can also play some range games the same way against anti-psyker bubbles by having a further away model make the declared attacks.
MandalorynOranj wrote: Do Pink Horrors have any shooting that isn't a psychic power? Not loving that my 20-man squad can end up with 4 shots due to bad dice, or that the enemy can Deny the Witch and cancel out my shooting.
Not seen anything that indicates their standard warpfire is gone, but if they have not changed it to do less shot's or something...then my god these thing's would be monsters
They have no ranged attack other than whatever psychic spell they roll off the chart.
TzeentchNet wrote: Daemons are looking less and less appealing as a primary force the more little bits get released (e.g. the actually rather large nerf to screamers). Allies to my CSM looks like the way to go.
Grimnarsmate wrote: So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.
Only if they are playing against Eldar with Runes of Cheese or Space Wolfs with Hood of "You cannot do anything on a roll of 4+"
I do find the notion of mortal humans (space marines) blocking a demonic power to be...odd, to say the least. Very unfluffy, especially that demons themselves get no bonus to pysker defence whatsoever as far as I can tell.
TzeentchNet wrote: Daemons are looking less and less appealing as a primary force the more little bits get released (e.g. the actually rather large nerf to screamers). Allies to my CSM looks like the way to go.
Brotherjanus wrote: Don't forget the Tyranid's Shadow in the Warp. They can cover the board in bubbles of 3d6 psychic tests.
Only by getting close enough to drown in rending daemonettes. And as a Tyranid player, I can tell you that "covering the board" with Shadows is much harder than you might think. And for all the PSAs in the book, walking out of Shadows is usually an option.
With the exception of Tzeentch, psychic powers for Daemons look like flavor enhancers, rather than must-haves. Tzeentch, well, Tzeentch-only builds will have to accept some bad match-ups, at least until Eldar gets updated & Runes goes away.
BryllCream wrote: I do find the notion of mortal humans (space marines) blocking a demonic power to be...odd, to say the least. Very unfluffy, especially that demons themselves get no bonus to pysker defence whatsoever as far as I can tell.
Well, except the bonuses to DTW that Khorne units get and the bonuses to DTW that any daemon unit with a psyker in it will get and...
Yeah, so, this just in... Being strongly psychic already gives you bonuses to psy defense in 6th.
Grimnarsmate wrote: So daemons havegone from top tier to bottom tier, I'm talking rock bottom.
Only if they are playing against Eldar with Runes of Cheese or Space Wolfs with Hood of "You cannot do anything on a roll of 4+"
Derp Knights will still be able to give us painfully one-sided matches as well. (at least Warp Quake isn't an auto-loss anymore!)
But then, we have solid rumors, (or rather Hastings), saying 'Eldar codex in Q4', so I suspect that their Runes of Cheese will be similarly nerfed as things like psyhoods have been.
But please, keep promoting the notion that Daemons now suck monkeyballs. It only means less bandwagoners to sully our good name and more fun when we crush opponents with our supposedly "bottom tier pile of steaming fecal matter codex."
Then it make the raging even more epic as suddenly the intertubes come alive next month with cries of, "OMG! Daemons are the most broken things EVAH!11!!!1!"
I agree with most of your assements, but here we diverge.
Take 20 horrors. Add a herald, make him a level 2 psyker with exaulted locus of conjuration. Take the primary from divination and change. Cast prescience on the horror unit every turn from the herald, who gets 2 warp charge spells per turn.
Your horrors then shoot 4d6STR 6 attacks hitting 75% of the time.
Your herald shoots 2d6STR 6 attacks hitting 89% of the time.
You hit 16.73 times, you wound 13.94 times, and 4.64 MEQ die.
Your saying "Only kills 4 MEQ" but to get that same result, you would need to fire 41.55 bolter shots! Your saying that one squad of horrors + herald have as much firepower at 21 MEQ within rapid fire range. How is that bad again?
Since the horrors are STR 6 as well, your also a threat to vehicles - particular flyers. The horror unit will snap shot and hit flyers with ~6.3 STR 6 hits per turn. That's going to do some damage to night scythes,
Perhaps you're right. I may have overreacted when I realized their Mastery Level didn't go up with their numbers.
It might be worth rolling the Heralds as Level 3 Psykers for a shot at infernal gateway as well. With the +1 strength to Psychic attacks, that gives you a minimum strength 6 AP 1 blast, to go with the rest of the Horrors, and you can always double Warp Charge the Primaris if you're dealing with GEQ.
I still think Warpflame will be a problem, since MEQs will be gaining FNP 66% of the time, and the way I read it, it will continue to stack.
As for AA, I think Soulgrinders will cover that pretty well. The Strength 10 shot and the Battlecannon seem like the best upgrades to me.
BryllCream wrote: I do find the notion of mortal humans (space marines) blocking a demonic power to be...odd, to say the least. Very unfluffy, especially that demons themselves get no bonus to pysker defence whatsoever as far as I can tell.
Well, except the bonuses to DTW that Khorne units get and the bonuses to DTW that any daemon unit with a psyker in it will get and...
Yeah, so, this just in... Being strongly psychic already gives you bonuses to psy defense in 6th.
The fluff in 40k makes it quite clear why you don't use psyker powers when there are demons about - a rule that was 100% fluff would simply remove a model from play if it tried to use it. Obviously that would be absurd but something to represent that demons are the warp made incarnate would be nice. There's something underwealming about how easily Demon's powers can now be blocked.
I much preferred the "old" books approach, which imo was good at representing demons' use of powers by simply treating them as shooting attacks or automatic. I don't like that an action *I* take has a risk of harming my own men, which is why I don't take plasma guns. The fact that most of my army will have to go through this gak in every game is pretty offputting.
But please, keep promoting the notion that Daemons now suck monkeyballs. It only means less bandwagoners to sully our good name and more fun when we crush opponents with our supposedly "bottom tier pile of steaming fecal matter codex."
Then it make the raging even more epic as suddenly the intertubes come alive next month with cries of, "OMG! Daemons are the most broken things EVAH!11!!!1!"
Perhaps you're right. I may have overreacted when I realized their Mastery Level didn't go up with their numbers.
It might be worth rolling the Heralds as Level 3 Psykers for a shot at infernal gateway as well. With the +1 strength to Psychic attacks, that gives you a minimum strength 6 AP 1 blast, to go with the rest of the Horrors, and you can always double Warp Charge the Primaris if you're dealing with GEQ.
I still think Warpflame will be a problem, since MEQs will be gaining FNP 66% of the time, and the way I read it, it will continue to stack.
As for AA, I think Soulgrinders will cover that pretty well. The Strength 10 shot and the Battlecannon seem like the best upgrades to me.
Warpflame is a minor annoyance at best. AFIK, it only tests once all your shooting at a particular unit is finished, so only one toughness test AND it only lasts until the begining of the next daemonic shooting phase.
And if you're really, really paranoid about it, run a Nurgle psyker or two alongside your Tzeentch shooters to try and hit the enemy with the -1T malediction power from Biomancy. Suddenly MEQ's are now only 50/50 shot at passing.
Perhaps you're right. I may have overreacted when I realized their Mastery Level didn't go up with their numbers.
It might be worth rolling the Heralds as Level 3 Psykers for a shot at infernal gateway as well. With the +1 strength to Psychic attacks, that gives you a minimum strength 6 AP 1 blast, to go with the rest of the Horrors, and you can always double Warp Charge the Primaris if you're dealing with GEQ.
I still think Warpflame will be a problem, since MEQs will be gaining FNP 66% of the time, and the way I read it, it will continue to stack.
As for AA, I think Soulgrinders will cover that pretty well. The Strength 10 shot and the Battlecannon seem like the best upgrades to me.
Warpflame is a minor annoyance at best. AFIK, it only tests once all your shooting at a particular unit is finished, so only one toughness test AND it only lasts until the begining of the next daemonic shooting phase.
And if you're really, really paranoid about it, run a Nurgle psyker or two alongside your Tzeentch shooters to try and hit the enemy with the -1T malediction power from Biomancy. Suddenly MEQ's are now only 50/50 shot at passing.
If they gain FNP, it is for the rest of the game. It will continue to stack as well.
It will be interesting to see how this codex plays out. On the positive side, units seem fast, lethal, and relatively cheaper. On the other hand, Daemon players will have to contend with a host of random elements and increasingly fragile and specialized units.
Troops are cheaper and better, but they were complete crap before, which is why you commonly saw 3x5 Plaguebearers as troops. While it does seem like there is increased troop utility, they are all one dimensional. Lack of grenades has always hurt Daemons as well.
While there are lots of fast, multi-wound models, they are also not eternal warrior and possess a terrible save. Those Blood Crushers, Screamers, Flamers, Fiends, and Fleshhouds all fear strength 8. Manticores will do serious work to them.
Finally, the random elements seem very make or break. Daemonic Instability is bad. 1/6 chance to disappear for at least a turn. Even when you deepstrike back, you are pretty much out of it again if you are an assault unit. The Warp Storm table is crazy too.
I don't want to make snap judgements though. Thus far, it seems as though there are lots of "good" specialized units, but few "great" ones. Then again, I haven't read through. Hopefully, Daemons are at least fun to play.
You will see that was corrected. I'm not going to go back and edit previous posts accordingly.
nce per game all models in the unit have poisoned weapons 2+
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