Verd_Warr wrote:

 Swara wrote:

blood reaper wrote:
Also note what Matt says about a double 1 wiping out you're entire army....

*Sigh*

I'll go first

*Cocks gun towards head*

He said wipe your own army, which might just mean they hit themselves with whatever they are shooting with.

The context is rolling on the "Warp Storm Table." So, is that a psychic power, an army rule, a daemonic gift...?

I'm not sure, I'm thinking psychic power. I'm gonna wait for more info before I worry too much.

Nobody seems to be bothered about the message that store owners should direct sales away from their store. Am I the only one that noticed?

 Hulksmash wrote:
Correction for me being and idiot, definitely over 2k but that would still imply 2 for 1 slots on the heralds.

And poop, the new chariots are all heavies too. That means I'm not gonna be able to make a super friends chariot amry

If you can stick a herald on a chariot, you can bring 3 in the heavy solts, and another 4 for heralds.

If the chariots are like the seeker chariots from the WD release, that would be a total of 9 chariots plus the 4 heralds.

15 chariots is a lot of chariots.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Nobody seems to be bothered about the message that store owners should direct sales away from their store. Am I the only one that noticed?

The fact it is referencing the crazy expensive limited editions of the books lessens the outrage I would think. The normal (arguably crazy expensive still) editions aren't a part of the warning.

I am a bit unclear, are the rumoured Greater Daemons just missing from the leak, or are none at all getting released with the codex initially?

Those are very, very cool looking models. I'm kind of shocked that there are so many Codex releases in such a short period of time.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I am a bit unclear, are the rumoured Greater Daemons just missing from the leak, or are none at all getting released with the codex initially?

If they're coming, I think I've heard that wave 2 is where it's at.

Makes sense, release new stuff wave one to cut off third parties, release resculpts in wave 2.

-Shrike- wrote:
From Fundaemons.blogspot.com

Herald of Nurgle - 25/30
Herald of Khorne - 22.25/30
Herald of Slaanesh - 22.25/30

Wait, plastic is now MORE expensive than finecast?

Surely there are some pics of the new greater demons, all the rumors upto this point have said we would be getting two in the initial wave.

Had myhopes up, but it doesn't look like we are. :(

CleverAntics wrote:
Nurgle without FnP...? I can't see it being taken away from Nurgle units,

Back in 3Ed only HQs and Deamon princes of Khorne could take the Feel no Pain option, Heck we where the only models to have that rule, at the time Sm Apoticaries Narthecium rule was "... cancel first wound inflicted to the squad...", Bionics where " if you loss your last wound, on a 6 you stand back up with 1 Wound" and maybe Death Company also had Feel No Pain, but i'm not sure...

And at the time Nurgle Deamons did fine without FnP.

After finding out they CAN regain it - or they still have it under the universal 'Daemon of Nurgle' special rule, we'll see - through some means, I'm sated. To me, Nurgle personifies that special rule as much as being the definition of it.

Those leaked WD pages dont mention the Cangeling for Pinkies...
Should I get worried?

 azreal13 wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I am a bit unclear, are the rumoured Greater Daemons just missing from the leak, or are none at all getting released with the codex initially?

If they're coming, I think I've heard that wave 2 is where it's at.

Makes sense, release new stuff wave one to cut off third parties, release resculpts in wave 2.

Or it could be the entire rumor is bogus and we're scrabbling for explanations. My money's on no new Greater Daemons this year, or the next.

Observations from the leaks

No fnp on the nurgle deamons, probably gone out the window to be replaced with shrouding.

The beasts are beasts are beasts. 4 wounds, it will not die, and attention seekers. Beasts can move through cover without penalty + shrouded =easy 3+ cover

The flies will probably have jink and shrouded. 3+ cover.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Observations from the leaks

No fnp on the nurgle deamons, probably gone out the window to be replaced with shrouding.

The beasts are beasts are beasts. 4 wounds, it will not die, and attention seekers. Beasts can move through cover without penalty + shrouded =easy 3+ cover

The flies will probably have jink and shrouded. 3+ cover.

Don't we already know this isn't the case? The Plague Drones profile was in the White Dwarf, they are Jet Pack Cavalry and they don't have Jink listed as a special rule.

What "Daemon of Nurgle" grants them I can't say, but Jink wouldn't be hidden there.

no love at all for Slanesh? I was thinking of starting a Slanesh army only because of the look of all the daemonettes-variants. Is that a possible misstake? are they no good in current codex? or are they just good while nurgle and khorne are awsome?

why are there no rumors or interest in slanesh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im talking 40K by the way

The big Slaanesh release was the chariot kit they put out last year.

The WD articles and battle report focus on the new releases which is why there's not much talk about Slaanesh at the moment IMO.

Also weren't most of the stats we are seeing(outside the flies) for fantasy?

I am guessing wiping out your own army was that each unit will takes hits if you roll a double 1 (or something like that) with a particular power

Also on instability I am guessing that it is just a fearless change.

Anyone know for sure what they are?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I am a bit unclear, are the rumoured Greater Daemons just missing from the leak, or are none at all getting released with the codex initially?

If they're coming, I think I've heard that wave 2 is where it's at.
Makes sense, release new stuff wave one to cut off third parties, release resculpts in wave 2.

Or it could be the entire rumor is bogus and we're scrabbling for explanations. My money's on no new Greater Daemons this year, or the next.

How much money?

 azreal13 wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I am a bit unclear, are the rumoured Greater Daemons just missing from the leak, or are none at all getting released with the codex initially?

If they're coming, I think I've heard that wave 2 is where it's at.

Makes sense, release new stuff wave one to cut off third parties, release resculpts in wave 2.

I think it generally makes sales and marketing sense also. You want to strike while the iron is hot, and kits of the new units are going to be more appealing at release to both new and existing players of that army.

Back on topic, I love the crescent moon head option for the Tzeentch herald. That takes me back.

I noticed something odd in the pictures of the Fantasy army book that Pretre posted from Natfka.

The unit description page for the Plaguebearers lists three different "upgrades" available to the unit. However, the army list section of the book with the points cost for the unit doesn't give any options for taking upgrades.

Are those upgrades tied to the Herald maybe?

Saldiven wrote:
I noticed something odd in the pictures of the Fantasy army book that Pretre posted from Natfka.

The unit description page for the Plaguebearers lists three different "upgrades" available to the unit. However, the army list section of the book with the points cost for the unit doesn't give any options for taking upgrades.

Are those upgrades tied to the Herald maybe?

Seems they are going that route for both fantasy and 40k

Saldiven wrote:


Are those upgrades tied to the Herald maybe?

Almost certainly. The page included info for the herald too, I think.

I had the white dwarf delivered today and in the battle report there is something which might shed light on the instability thing:

"The sole survivor of the Sternguard charges into the Flamers alongside Captain Lysander. They win the combat and cause the remainder to fail their Daemonic Instability test".

So we can learn a few things from this:

1) Daemonic Instability kicks in when you loose combat and there is no mention in the batrep of the Flamers comming back on deep strike or some such

and

2) Flamers have changed. A lot. Because he charges 7 Flamers, and with the current rules they would have dealt 7d3 auto hits that kills a sternguard on 4+. My guess is that they can't overwatch any more.

Other interesting things from the batrep:

- EVERY Daemon choice has Deepstrike, but doesn't have to use it. In the batrep he deployed everything but 2 choices.

- PB don't have FnP, but the Heralds gives abilities to squads they join depending on what you have purchased for the Heralds.

- The Daemon prince placed a token, and from that token there spawned a random minimum sized troop choice every turn on a 4+

- The flaming Chariot "eats vehicles"

- The "Warp Storm Table" is a table Daemons must roll every shooting phase. It is hinted at as being something that is always there when Daemons appear, so perhaps a general rule like Daemonic Asssault was in the old days.

Maybe you get Daemonic Instability instead of failing Morale?

That would be crazy. Kinda like Auto-Regroup with ATSKNF but you're off the table for part of the turn.

Daemonic Instability kicks in when you loose combat

That's LOSE combat, not loose.

I'm wondering how much fun this is going to be when fighting a Warhammer battle that takes a few hours. In the past Daemonic Instability was one of those things that seemed like it would be colorful fun in an RPG type setting, but it just sucked a lot of the fun out of using Daemons in Warhammer battles. Daemon units would crumble so quickly after losing a combat that it made them hardly worth unpacking them and putting them on the table at times. My experience was that I'd be taking so many additional models off after losing a combat that it was almost the same as if the whole unit had been wiped out at the time combat was resolved. When that happens repeatedly it begins to take some of the fun out of fielding those units.

I cant remember where I read it but it was something like Flamers no longer have "Breath of Chaos" instead they have a "heavy flamer" type weapon.

That would explain why the sternguard survived the charge against 7 flamers.

I can't help but feel happy about some of the nerf's, even when it's my own army they are nerfing. Flamers, I will admit, were overpowered, but I hope they at least keep the breath of chaos for HQ's and such. It was only OP, when it could be spammed so easily by flamers of tzeentch.

Plus, I'm happy I will have thing's to accept challenges in my main unit's, with herald's becoming more like optional sergeant's than true HQ's

40k-noob wrote:
I cant remember where I read it but it was something like Flamers no longer have "Breath of Chaos" instead they have a "heavy flamer" type weapon.

That would explain why the sternguard survived the charge against 7 flamers.

Not really, even one hit per flamer at normal flamer hits should take out one marine, statistically.

I don't know from the wording whether he charged in alongside Lysander at the same time, or if Lysander was already in combat. If Lysander was already in combat, that explains no overwatch.

 azreal13 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I cant remember where I read it but it was something like Flamers no longer have "Breath of Chaos" instead they have a "heavy flamer" type weapon.

That would explain why the sternguard survived the charge against 7 flamers.

Not really, even one hit per flamer at normal flamer hits should take out one marine, statistically.

I don't know from the wording whether he charged in alongside Lysander at the same time, or if Lysander was already in combat. If Lysander was already in combat, that explains no overwatch.

i hope so. Flamers needed a nerf, such as a points increase, but I hope they were not made useless.

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Daemonic Instability kicks in when you loose combat

That's LOSE combat, not loose.

Thanks a million for clearing that up. To repay you for your help please make a post in my native language of Danish and I will correct minor mistakes for you in that post.


@Lysander:

The sternguard and Lysander was joined and charged the unengaged flamers at the same time. So overwatch could have gone to Lysander who tanked them on his 2+

EDIT:
More stuff from the batrep:

- Pink Horrors have a mastery level based on the number of models left

- Daemonprinces are indeed HQ choices

- The Beast of Nurgle ''charge in opponents phase'' rule is not mentioned anywhere that I saw

- The Soulgrinder changes it's firing mode to skyfire in the last two turns and killed a flyer in each of those turns

 Gorlack wrote:

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Daemonic Instability kicks in when you loose combat

That's LOSE combat, not loose.

Thanks a million for clearing that up. To repay you for your help please make a post in my native language of Danish and I will correct minor mistakes for you in that post.


@Lysander:

The sternguard and Lysander was joined and charged the unengaged flamers at the same time. So overwatch could have gone to Lysander who tanked them on his 2+

Or it's a standard White Dwarf battle report spoiler where some big rule is forgotten.

 Gorlack wrote:

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Daemonic Instability kicks in when you loose combat

That's LOSE combat, not loose.

Thanks a million for clearing that up. To repay you for your help please make a post in my native language of Danish and I will correct minor mistakes for you in that post.


@Lysander:

The sternguard and Lysander was joined and charged the unengaged flamers at the same time. So overwatch could have gone to Lysander who tanked them on his 2+

BrassScorpion is just being a jerk. Thank you for the info.

Unless breath of chaos changed, it should still ignore all armor saves, so he would have had to make a lot of 3++s, or 2+s if the ability has changed.

Imagine the outrage if they were made useless. After the WD update they must have sold a ton of them as people filled up three slots with nine each! Suddenly, if they are useless, people are going to FREAK OUT.

More stuff from the batrep:

- Pink Horrors have a mastery level based on the number of models left

- Daemonprinces are indeed HQ choices

- The Beast of Nurgle ''charge in opponents phase'' rule is not mentioned anywhere that I saw

- The Soulgrinder changes it's firing mode to skyfire in the last two turns and killed a flyer in each of those turns

Most of this sounds very very cool. The Mastery Level, and Skyfire Soulgrinder sound really fantastic!

Not every demons player went for the bandwagon. If FotM players get the shaft, I'm kind of OK with that.

 Gorlack wrote:

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Daemonic Instability kicks in when you loose combat

That's LOSE combat, not loose.

Thanks a million for clearing that up. To repay you for your help please make a post in my native language of Danish and I will correct minor mistakes for you in that post.

I at this. Having been to Copenhagen a couple of times, the Danes' willingness to switch from Danish to English without batting an eyelid never ceases to amaze me.

Germans tend do so as well, but with a pitying look in their eyes, whereas the French just look at you as though you're stupid.

Gorlack, I love your country

 matphat wrote:
Imagine the outrage if they were made useless. After the WD update they must have sold a ton of them as people filled up three slots with nine each! Suddenly, if they are useless, people are going to FREAK OUT.

Maybe the bangwagon jumpers. Most people that played Daemons prior to the update won't be surprised. I know I am not and even the guys that play those types of lists in my store are not either. We knew something like this would come. The easy fix to the unit would be to just make them SnP and leave them otherwise as they are. That way they cannot overwatch or spread out after arriving.

 Flashman wrote:
Thanks a million for clearing that up. To repay you for your help please make a post in my native language of Danish and I will correct minor mistakes for you in that post.

Most of the time I see this error (and I see it a lot) on Dakkadakka it's from English speaking countries like the UK, US, and Australia. I wasn't really picking on you which is why I didn't reference the quote. Believe me I wish I could speak or write in Danish. I also wish more of my fellow first-language-is-English users here on the forum could write a coherent sentence in English.

 newbis wrote:
Not every demons player went for the bandwagon. If FotM players get the shaft, I'm kind of OK with that.

I started playing Daemons in 5th, and while I didn't spam Flamers after they were buffed, I will admit to picking up a few more of them.

With that said, I'm not sad to see them nerfed (if this is actually happening), as I felt a bit dirty using them.

Skyfire on Souldgrinders sounds nice though. They'll need to add something to the Heavy choices to make up for moving DPs to HQ.

 undertow wrote:

 newbis wrote:
Not every demons player went for the bandwagon. If FotM players get the shaft, I'm kind of OK with that.

I started playing Daemons in 5th, and while I didn't spam Flamers after they were buffed, I will admit to picking up a few more of them.

With that said, I'm not sad to see them nerfed (if this is actually happening), as I felt a bit dirty using them.

Skyfire on Souldgrinders sounds nice though. They'll need to add something to the Heavy choices to make up for moving DPs to HQ.

Chariot's (The new model ones) and that new daemon engine, are both heavy support. Bit of an obvious ploy to sell new models by GW there, wouldn't be surprised if the soul-grinder went elite too xD

Evileyes wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 newbis wrote:
Not every demons player went for the bandwagon. If FotM players get the shaft, I'm kind of OK with that.

I started playing Daemons in 5th, and while I didn't spam Flamers after they were buffed, I will admit to picking up a few more of them.

With that said, I'm not sad to see them nerfed (if this is actually happening), as I felt a bit dirty using them.

Skyfire on Souldgrinders sounds nice though. They'll need to add something to the Heavy choices to make up for moving DPs to HQ.

Chariot's (The new model ones) and that new daemon engine, are both heavy support. Bit of an obvious ploy to sell new models by GW there, wouldn't be surprised if the soul-grinder went elite too xD

The Flamer Chariot, and the Skull Cannon are both, Heavy support? Confirmed? There isn't a new Daemon Engine, as far as I know.

 Sasori wrote:

Evileyes wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 newbis wrote:
Not every demons player went for the bandwagon. If FotM players get the shaft, I'm kind of OK with that.

I started playing Daemons in 5th, and while I didn't spam Flamers after they were buffed, I will admit to picking up a few more of them.

With that said, I'm not sad to see them nerfed (if this is actually happening), as I felt a bit dirty using them.

Skyfire on Souldgrinders sounds nice though. They'll need to add something to the Heavy choices to make up for moving DPs to HQ.

Chariot's (The new model ones) and that new daemon engine, are both heavy support. Bit of an obvious ploy to sell new models by GW there, wouldn't be surprised if the soul-grinder went elite too xD

The Flamer Chariot, and the Skull Cannon are both, Heavy support? Confirmed? There isn't a new Daemon Engine, as far as I know.

As far as I can tell, the chariot's are, yes.

And as for the daemon engine, that was among the earlier rumors, that "We would get a daemon engine, that was not the same as the ones for the chaos space marine codex". I can't imagine that would be anything other than heavy support.

But either way, I need to come up with a conversion for those plague-rider thing's. They are both far too expencive for what they are, and i'm not a total fan of them. Perhaps some fantasy chaos wolves, ridden by plaguebearers? I could get 10 of those out of 2 boxes, rather than 6 out of 2 boxes, and it would look better IMO, that is, unless the jet cavalry rules make it so they will just act silly without flying bases (Though, if they only jump short distances, I could just play it as them having an ability to leap over terrain, rather than truly flying )

 Gorlack wrote:


- Pink Horrors have a mastery level based on the number of models left

- The Soulgrinder changes it's firing mode to skyfire in the last two turns and killed a flyer in each of those turns

These points make me happy!

Thank you for sharing!

I Guess we will find out all the answers tomorrow anyway, so meh

 newbis wrote:
Not every demons player went for the bandwagon. If FotM players get the shaft, I'm kind of OK with that.

Totally agree.

 matphat wrote:

 newbis wrote:
Not every demons player went for the bandwagon. If FotM players get the shaft, I'm kind of OK with that.

Totally agree.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

*Really* liking the newest rumors regarding Pinkies & the Soul Grinder!
Especially since I always field my main unit of 18 Pinkies w/Changeling in every single list.

In the armylist in the batrep both of the chariots are Heavy Support. The plague drones are fast and the Daemon Prince is a HQ choice. The rest is in their usual place.

And with regards to the Skyfire on the Soulgrinder I just realised it could be using a mysterious objective... It doesn't say though. It says: ''The soulgrinder used skyfire to target one of the stormtalons bla bla shaken''. But it doesn't look like it's near any of the objectives in any of the pictures.

In the armylist it has the following upgrades:

''Soul Grinder of Tzeench, with Iron Claw and Phlegm Bombardment''

Oh... And a roll of 10 on the ''warp storm'' table gives the entire army +1 invul save so what ever that table is it's pretty powerfull


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding the chariots they are both actual Chariot unit types in-game.

The Khorne one shoots S8 AP4 Range 36 Large Blasts and the Tzeench one shoots ''either a torrent of flames that will chew through power armor, or a series of high strength low AP shots''.

It then goes on to describe how it is the ultimate vehicle killer, but that in their two previous battles it killed 10 Marines in a single shooting phase, so this time the Marine player knew to kill it in turn 1

Soulgrinder's can't use objectives to gain skyfire, as only a scoring unit can benefit from the objectives. So either, the soulgrinder's harvester gun has skyfire (Which would be a good way to give it to daemons) or, there is a new psychic power in the book which grant's skyfire, which would be fantastic, pink horror psykers giving skyfire to antitank units

I don't know if anyone understands this, but mastery level 20 pink horrors is terrifying when combined with, well, pretty much anything in the book. invisibility on your entire army? 10+ psychic shrieks on a deep striking unit? heck, even the biomancy powers would be scary on them.

I'm praying to space pope that whoever wrote the codex thought about the implications of that being brought out to the hordes of minmaxers who care nothing for cinematicity or storyline games, and wrote a proper counterbalancing factor for that.

Evileyes wrote:
Soulgrinder's can't use objectives to gain skyfire, as only a scoring unit can benefit from the objectives. So either, the soulgrinder's harvester gun has skyfire (Which would be a good way to give it to daemons) or, there is a new psychic power in the book which grant's skyfire, which would be fantastic, pink horror psykers giving skyfire to antitank units

Or they were playing Big Guns Never Tire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

uberjoras wrote:
I don't know if anyone understands this, but mastery level 20 pink horrors is terrifying when combined with, well, pretty much anything in the book. invisibility on your entire army? 10+ psychic shrieks on a deep striking unit? heck, even the biomancy powers would be scary on them.

I'm praying to space pope that whoever wrote the codex thought about the implications of that being brought out to the hordes of minmaxers who care nothing for cinematicity or storyline games, and wrote a proper counterbalancing factor for that.

It's far more likely they get a mastery level for every 5 or 10 models in the unit.

Oh sorry, I wasn't clear enough then the Pink Horrors started out with 20 and after they are shot at by a squad of Legion of the Damned it says: ''With both of their template weapons in range, the Legion of the Damned killed enough Horrors to reduce their Mastery Level to 2''. So I assume they start out at max 4, not 20

And good catch on the Soulgrinder and objectives. It still has the Harvester Cannon as it is mentioned that it uses it on some marines before plucking flyers out of the sky.

And they where playing the Scouring, so it wasn't because of the mission.

uberjoras wrote:
I don't know if anyone understands this, but mastery level 20 pink horrors is terrifying when combined with, well, pretty much anything in the book. invisibility on your entire army? 10+ psychic shrieks on a deep striking unit? heck, even the biomancy powers would be scary on them.

I'm praying to space pope that whoever wrote the codex thought about the implications of that being brought out to the hordes of minmaxers who care nothing for cinematicity or storyline games, and wrote a proper counterbalancing factor for that.

You are assuming it is per horror and not some ratio like say every 9 (T favored number perhaps) meaning 18+ would be mastery level 2.... This makes much more sense IMHO.

 Gorlack wrote:
Oh sorry, I wasn't clear enough then the Pink Horrors started out with 20 and after they are shot at by a squad of Legion of the Damned it says: ''With both of their template weapons in range, the Legion of the Damned killed enough Horrors to reduce their Mastery Level to 2''. So I assume they start out at max 4, not 20

And good catch on the Soulgrinder and objectives. It still has the Harvester Cannon as it is mentioned that it uses it on some marines before plucking flyers out of the sky.

And they where playing the Scouring, so it wasn't because of the mission.

Cool, I'm definitely interested in skyfiring Soulgrinders. Hopefully they start with it and it's not from a spell or warp storm.

 Red Corsair wrote:

uberjoras wrote:
I don't know if anyone understands this, but mastery level 20 pink horrors is terrifying when combined with, well, pretty much anything in the book. invisibility on your entire army? 10+ psychic shrieks on a deep striking unit? heck, even the biomancy powers would be scary on them.

I'm praying to space pope that whoever wrote the codex thought about the implications of that being brought out to the hordes of minmaxers who care nothing for cinematicity or storyline games, and wrote a proper counterbalancing factor for that.

You are assuming it is per horror and not some ratio like say every 9 (T favored number perhaps) meaning 18+ would be mastery level 2.... This makes much more sense IMHO.

IIRC, the old DoC WHFB book had just that, but then ofcourse with magic: for every 8 (or was it 9?) horrors it's magic level gets 1 higher.
I assume the same will be done to both WHFB and 40K.

Here some alternative pics taken from WD, posted by Perturabo:
http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11148828-en-marzo-demonios-rumores-y-fotos-a-dia-22/#101896978
and from this blog: http://diceandbrush.blogspot.de/

Spoilered because of size of pics:

That flaming chariot looks much cooler with fire colored flames and not warp flames.

I love the moon-face

Those Daemonic Chariots with some conversion work, though not much could make useful WOC Warshrines of Tzeentch or Khorne. For those who don't like the current Warshine model or feel they need more variety an alternative etc.

Hurray! Moonface!

 Leech wrote:
Those Daemonic Chariots with some conversion work, though not much could make useful WOC Warshrines of Tzeentch or Khorne. For those who don't like the current Warshine model or feel they need more variety an alternative etc.

Or alternatively, I could easily see taking the WOC Hellcannon and using it as the skullcannon. Get a couple of crushers pulling that thing and you've got yourself an awesome model.

THE ADVANCE ORDER IS UP!

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCatsLarge.jsp?catId=cat440160a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k



These are brilliant!

Hopefully this will teach all of you nay-sayers not to judge a mini based on thumb-nail sized blurry pictures.

Nice to see some new options. New rules hopefully for the better.

THEY ARE UP! And the look fantastic, GW website has some cracking pictures. On an off-shoot note my site is doing free shipping over £40 all pre-orders are here http://www.greendragongames.co.uk/deals/pre-orders.html

I'm pleasantly surprised at the prices actually, thought worse. Getting myself one of those chariots for the option of a herald on disc AND a chariot in the same kit, looks good! Also as a Hobbit fan, I think Thror looked amazing in White Dwarf this month.

Plague bees look awesome!

4 different Limited Editions.. one for each god!

I guess it was inevitable.

 MetalOxide wrote:

Hopefully this will teach all of you nay-sayers not to judge a mini based on thumb-nail sized blurry pictures.

I stand by my previous assessment of the Khorne kart:

Seriously, that Tzeentch herald on burning chariot is AWESOME. One of the best models I've seen in a while. Hope he's worth taking rules-wise.

Love the one-handed Hadoken

The bigger, better GW pictures do make this stuff look nicer, but more in the sense that there seems to be some nice parts, and that some of the stuff could make for great conversions. I still think that as a whole, on their own merits, these models are pretty lack-lustre...

-C6

I'm going to have to agree on the awesome that is the tzeentch chariot kit, finally they do something like adding a base in for the herald so that you have another option fully covered if you build it as the big bad flamer option. Just a shame they didn't do the same for the skull cannon seeing as that clearly also has another herald in it, maybe they just want to make sure they can sell the finecast one.

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
I'm going to have to agree on the awesome that is the tzeentch chariot kit, finally they do something like adding a base in for the herald so that you have another option fully covered if you build it as the big bad flamer option. Just a shame they didn't do the same for the skull cannon seeing as that clearly also has another herald in it, maybe they just want to make sure they can sell the finecast one.

I think you may be right, however the Khorne herald's arm is holding on to the chariot, and his legs are spread pretty wide as he's balancing on top of the blood throne. But hey, who doesn't have a spare base lying around? With a little conversion work he'd make a fine herald on foot.

Khorne chariot is still crap, though ideas flowed through my head on how to make it look better. The wheels are what ruins it for me.

Tzeentch chariot looks good with the exception of the giant flamer. Even with the traditional flames, the flamer looks weak. Those giant 2D flames are horrible. Agree that the plastic herald on with the kit is probably the strongest item in the release.

Now with bigger pictures...looks nice, better than WoC release. I like sicko flies. Tzeentch chariot too, I'm not big fan of "flames" but it can be left out. Khorne throne is bit weird but OK. All these kits seem to have plenty of options and room for modification.

Don't like heralds, except maybe Khorne one. Nurgle Herald seems just too...messy. Slaanesh Herald has too thick arms/claws. Why is just one of the heralds plastic and other two Finecast? Overpriced limited edition books are silly, but different covers are nice touch. Also they bothered to paint different studio models for both 40k and FB.

Limited Edition stuff seems pointless to me, but I do love the Slaanesh Herald, could be awesome if painted just right. I agree that the Nurgle Herald seems a little too messy, looks more like a showcase piece than a practical playing model.

Am I the only one shocked by the prices? I mean they actually seem to be...appropriate. I would have thought the nurgle flyers would have gone the way of $75+ easily. They look awesome, and I can't wait to get them painted up!

Lets see. Now that there's a bigger picture of the flies let me see if I changed my mind.

Silly riders oddly positioned on top: X
Silly looking anteater style face: 1/2X (The other option doesn't look bad)
Fanged genitalia: X
Awkward pose revolving around the bloated abdomen:X

Ok. So the faces got better. I'm still not seeing what people like about this.

The Kelp Flamer looks better with a flame paint job, but just looks odd that it has a straight wall of fire infront of it. I'm actually not sure if I like the model or not.

Wow! The new models looks really good. I wonder how much would it cost to make a 1500pts 40k army? Questions to deamon players, do you only use 1 type to daemon force or a mix? GW is selling 4 sets of battleforce, one for each god. Are they a good starting point for a new player at CAD183 compared to buying them seperatly? They seem to be direct GW only so I know I can't get it online for a discount. Would 1 be enough to start a force or I need like at least 2?

why does it say sold out on the picture for the battle magic cards? it still says add to cart on the options. they just started. are they out of stock already?

The biggest issue for me are the battleforces for each faction, roughly £90

I still think the models look a might silly, better than the rumour pics, but still not very good. The heralds aren't bad though.

As for the prices, they do seem quite a bit more reasonable than I was expecting, save for the finecast, but then that's the norm really. They're not any more overpriced than most finecast.

Interesting to see the Daemons getting any actual psychic powers, should make game balance a lot more straightforwards, clear up any confusion, and abuse, around current Daemon powers.

I'm kind of disappointed there's no new casts though; GW should spend some time replacing old casts with each release, makes me nervous for more upgrade-centric armies in the future whose boxes include virtually none of their upgrades.

Now, as the Khorne chariot and cannon still look ridiculous - here's an idea... a miniature brass scorpion. Either with a throne rider mounted on top or the cannon as the tail sting?

Now, how would you construct a mini brass scorpion? Imperial Guard Sentinel legs?

Now they look a lot better, i'd actually say a average release rather than an awful one. Even the snorkel flie heads look better in the alternate colour scheme.


Honestly, do GW PURPOSELY use the worst pictures in WD?

 Aipoch wrote:
Am I the only one shocked by the prices? I mean they actually seem to be...appropriate. I would have thought the nurgle flyers would have gone the way of $75+ easily. They look awesome, and I can't wait to get them painted up!

Those Drones aren't really that big, same cost & size as Dragon Ogres from recent WoC release, just bit more parts. Ditto for Chariots, this release doesn't have really large, expensive model like Warshrine or Throgg.

Murdock129 wrote:
The biggest issue for me are the battleforces for each faction, roughly £90

Those arent battleforces, they are bundles.

Battleforces offer a slight discount compared to buying each peice on its own, and you can see the new deamons battleforce in the first post of this thread under "WFB: Chaos Daemons Battalion/Battleforce $115.00". It is not mono-god.

The bundles are mono-god, but are just a collection of each gods stuff at no discount. The battleforce is not on the GW site yet.

 Kroothawk wrote:


WFB: Chaos Daemons Battalion/Battleforce $115.00

interestingly enough the pictures for the two systems are different. The flies look a lok better in the 40k pics than the WFB ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
interestingly enough the pictures for the two systems are different. The flies look a lok better in the 40k pics than the WFB ones.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I still think the models look a might silly, better than the rumour pics, but still not very good. The heralds aren't bad though.

As for the prices, they do seem quite a bit more reasonable than I was expecting, save for the finecast, but then that's the norm really. They're not any more overpriced than most finecast.

I thought so too, those dual kits could easily have gone for 50$ or more.

Edit for rudeness. MT11

Wow, I just cant believe that, within a month or so, we already got another release.

Mmm I placed my order for the cards for now but it say it will be shipped so it will be at my house around the release day. Are they not released yet then if there up on the site?

Please do not quote rule breaking, use the mod-alert button instead, thank you! MT11

This is an average release, the pictures have made the models look better admittedly. The characters are still angular and blocky althought that may be down to a poor paintjob. Some of the stuff has definitely been scultped nicely but overall its still al little lackluster ( i still think the Flame chariot think is lousy, the Slaaneshi herald is the complete opposite of alluring, and the flies design i think is still poorly considered and makes them look like bagpipes)

My opinion of the models has changed a little bit due to the new pictures. My opinion of you has not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wow, I just cant believe that, within a month or so, we already got another release.

And because its Daemons it counts for a realease for both systems.. clever GW.....

Please do not quote rule breaking, use the mod-alert button instead, thank you! MT11


I've seen the better pics, and both the flies and flame chariots are improved, but I still don't much like them. We'll see how they look in the flesh. I'm a bit nervous about the rules, but only parts are out now. I'll reserve judgement til the actual books come out.

Please do not quote rule breaking, use the mod-alert button instead, thank you! MT11

Check Dakka rule #1.

Now I'm almost regretting deciding make my nurgle army last and my slaanesh army first...

Almost... who knows? maybe I'll do Khorne last?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I still think the models look a might silly, better than the rumour pics, but still not very good. The heralds aren't bad though.

As for the prices, they do seem quite a bit more reasonable than I was expecting, save for the finecast, but then that's the norm really. They're not any more overpriced than most finecast.

I thought so too, those dual kits could easily have gone for 50$ or more.

The dual kits are $55 au, but they are only chariot bases, other fantasy chariots are only $44 so it is a price increase.

Wait, what? the God bundels have a HQ?

and nurgle/slaanesh bundles have special characters! Epidemus for nurgle and the Masque for slaanesh!

sorely tempted to pick up the Slaanesh Limited Edition Codex, though... mmm

The herald of tzeentch chariot looks better than I expected (really aladdin'ish), but everything else still looks very disappointing. I will pick up the codex + psychic cards.. and maaaaybe a box of flies to convert with. They are ok, but not good or great. They should have done something more similar to the forgeworld blight drone - a hybrid mechanical/flesh abomination along the lines of the soulgrinder. Or, some giant threatening beast with flesh rotting off the bone, along the lines of the zombie dragon.

Wow, the real pictures make this stuff look MUCH better than I thought. The only model here that I'm not a fan of is the Khorne chariot. Going with the simple "pulled by Juggernauts" route would have been a lot better there, I feel.

Weird. I swear it looks like someone at GW designed an awesome looking Khorne themed motorcycle, and then got forced to stick three bloodletters on top of it. And then stuck a bad color scheme on the undercarriage. :(

Oh, they are sticking with the finecrapst for the heralds and heroes? yeah, not going there.

Any of the chariot type models if made as the alternative model (ie, skullcannon) will yield a free plastic herald. The only herald without a chariot is the nurgle one, and the new nurgle herald just happens to be plastic!

 shasolenzabi wrote:
Oh, they are sticking with the finecast for the heralds and heroes? yeah, not going there.

The Slaanesh and Khorne heralds are Finecast, but you can get plastic heralds from the Chariot kits if you build them as their alternate configurations, much like the Necron Overlord and Catacomb Command/Annihilation Barge.

Anyone noticed that Karanak and The Changeling are now HQ choices in GW's site?

 Kingsley wrote:
Wow, the real pictures make this stuff look MUCH better than I thought. The only model here that I'm not a fan of is the Khorne chariot. Going with the simple "pulled by Juggernauts" route would have been a lot better there, I feel.

Agreed. The flies look pretty neat without the snout faces, I should add some to my pre-order.

Lol, I know I will be alone in this, but having looked at the 360 image, I actually kind of like the Khorne Skull Cannon. It's pleasingly bonkers. Ho Hum.

The Nurgle Flies without the snuffle heads are good too, except for the static riders.

If I was starting a Daemon army and GW prices hadn't disappeared into fantasy land, I'd be tempted by some of this stuff.

They look good to me. The online negativity brigade were always going to rip apart some poorly scanned WD photos.

 Glorioski wrote:
They look good to me. The online negativity brigade were always going to rip apart some poorly scanned WD photos.

Always going to be the way- I try not to even look at any early release photos, as you can never really tell how good a model is until you have it physically in your hands.

Pleasantly surprised by this release! The tzeentch chariot looks good to me, and the price is reasonable for GW

Waited for the proper pics before I commented and that Khorne thing is an abomination [and not in a good way]. Whoever designed it [does anyone know?], and whoever signed it off, need to be slapped repeatedly around the face then shown the door. The plague drones are ok, except for the spiky saddle bit which looks off, and the Tzeentch chariot is also not bad, although the other configuration looks way over the top and the flames look wierd.

I don't buy anything in finecast so the new herald sculpts are of no interest to me.

Having different codexes for the different gods is a nice idea, but I'm not paying £25 for a different cover. Plus seeing as most of the rules support for the different gods has been ditched [sacred number, rivalries between the gods etc.] and the internal content is the same, I don't see the point.

So out of the last two releases for two of my armies [Chaos Marines and Daemons], and despite being a huge fan of all things chaos, I haven't been impressed enough to buy any of the new models.

I was very down on the Plague Drones, but I am coming around to them. The larger photos make them look less like sacks and more like insects, and the riders don't look quite so 'stuck on'. I think the fact that they are multipose means they're less homogenous than a one-piece model, and I suspect the posing makes a big difference. I'm still not keen on most of the other new models, apart from maybe the Herald of Nurgle.

I'm glad they look better than most made out (including myself) tbh - they look fun to paint at least - don't care much for how they are in the game.

I think there's potential to squeeze a lot out of the kits - you could easily convert the Plague Drones into Blight Drones or a set of 3 Nurgle Spawn (which is what I'm thinking of doing), as well as getting an HQ and another choice out of the chariot kits (and an additional two or three horrors by the looks of things).

To me all the Bloodletters look stuck on, as oppossed to being part of the kit, I'd much rather have a Juggernaught pulling the Blood Throne - but there's still an opportunity to get 2 Bloodletters and a Herald out of the kit. Well 1 Bloodletter - I think it'll be amusing to have just a single Bloodletter holding onto the Cannon

The flamer chariot looks so much better with actual flames painted onto it - not a mixture of coral and silly string IMHO

I don't get the Herald of Nurgle model. You get ten of those in the Plaguebearer box for almost the same price.

Well, the bees look a lot better than the pre-release pictures did, except for the little fanged penises - to be frank, the higher the resolution the worse off we are on those.

The Khornecycle is just yet another epic "how did we get here" sculpt. Why is he standing atop the throne instead of sitting on it? Why are there Bloodletters pulling it instead of Juggernauts? Most of all, how did this happen, conceptually?

Herald of Tzeentch is quite well-done, though. Not my thing but definitely fits the aesthetic and looks very nice.

Not seeing the value in the Herald of Nurgle - for $25, they could have done a little more then gussied up a Plaguebearer. Lazy and greedy.

Herald of Khorne delivers what the Herald of Nurgle didn't. Still a Bloodletter stands right out as being special. Not as nice as the FW one but the FW one is incredible. This is still very nice, IMO, although the pose is a little goofy - is he pooping a line of skulls or what? My dog once ate an entire paper towel sheet when she was a puppy, and when she tried to pass it, it got stuck. She ran around the yard barking in terror while it was hanging out of her, flapping around. I had to put on rubber gloves and slowly pull it out. That line of skulls reminds me strongly of that. She ate a lot of inedible things. But now we're digressing.

Herald of Slaanesh is OK. I'd give it a B-. I wish they'd made these heralds stand out a little more.

 Ouze wrote:
My dog once ate an entire paper towel sheet when she was a puppy, and when she tried to pass it, it got stuck. She ran around the yard barking in terror while it was hanging out of her, flapping around. I had to put on rubber gloves and slowly pull it out. That line of skulls reminds me strongly of that. She ate a lot of inedible things. But now we're digressing.

Haha glad I finished my breakfast before I read that.

Overall I like the new release. I have a lot of Tzeentch Daemons so I probably won't be buying anything.

Although I did order the limited edition Tzeentch Codex last night.

 Ouze wrote:
Well, the bees look a lot better than the pre-release pictures did, except for the little fanged penises - to be frank, the higher the resolution the worse off we are on those.

They will be highly sought after bits for conversions though, naughty bits so to speak

 Ouze wrote:

The Khornecycle is just yet another epic "how did we get here" sculpt. Why is he standing atop the throne instead of sitting on it? Why are there Bloodletters pulling it instead of Juggernauts? Most of all, how did this happen, conceptually?

Its not being pulled by the bloodletters, it has an engine in the back
Would be hard for bloodletters to pull it when they're standing on it

Karanak and the Changeling are listed as HQ units now
And Lords and Heroes for WFB

Chad Warden wrote:
Karanak and the Changeling are listed as HQ units now
And Lords and Heroes for WFB

I can imagine Karanak making Flesh Hounds troop choices, or something along those lines.

 Requiem wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

The Khornecycle is just yet another epic "how did we get here" sculpt. Why is he standing atop the throne instead of sitting on it? Why are there Bloodletters pulling it instead of Juggernauts? Most of all, how did this happen, conceptually?

Its not being pulled by the bloodletters, it has an engine in the back
Would be hard for bloodletters to pull it when they're standing on it

Oh, it's like a parade float, then, and they're standing on it, waving to the crowd? Not sure that improves it.

The one on the bottom left is going "Free chicken drum to the one who eats the marine first!"

(How do you make images smaller D: )

Nice I always prefer Nurgle Musicians to play Bells. Not feeling the bone flute thing on the Plaguebearers from last year so a welcome return. Can't wait to get a box. The riders might look a bit static in the Eavy Metal pics but with a bit of extra work and a decent paint job they would look amazing.

Not much I don't like here except the Heralds. Think you can convert/kit-bash/scratch build your own quite easily. And they'd look more impressive IMO.

I'm guessing that giant Flamer thing would also make a nice stand alone model (Pyrocaster or Flamer-style Herald perhaps) if you build the Herald variant.

The Khorne chariot/motorbike thing had me a bit worried at first as I really wanted a Jugger Chariot but looking at it in 360 view I'm really impressed. Same deal as the Plague Drones regarding Paintjob though. Eavy Metal ones look a bit bright and cheerful.

Good work GW. Pleasantly surprised.

(much rather be able to get paperback codex for 20 quid though. There's no point having a nice Hardback book that's gonna get bashed around and thumbed through so much)

That bike thing with the chair or gun mount is pretty sweet! Like you said Diakon, pleasantly surprised. ..at all of it but mostly the bike thing.

Heralds? Still crap. Sorry, but they're seriously uninspired. I could live with the Slaanesh one if s/he was plastic, but in FineCost, no thanks.
Khorne Chariot? Terrible.
Khorne Cannon? Terrible like the chariot, but also comically stupid.
Tzeentch Herld Chariot? Seriously cool!
Tzeench Coral Reef? Better when painted like actual damned fire.
Flies'O'Doom? Give 'em a decent paint job and remove the elephant trunks and suddenly they improve. Not quite the Pumbagore mistake that they first appeared to be. Shame the riders are just kinda sitting there with no sense of motion.

I think though what we can really all take away from this is:

Clear photos on bright backgrounds with good lighting = Good!
WD photo team photographing things with heavy shadow on dark backgrounds = Bad!

 Kingsley wrote:
Going with the simple "pulled by Juggernauts" route would have been a lot better there, I feel.

I have to agree. I don't know why they didn't make it a Jugger Chariot. That would've been great.

Just pre-ordered both books + both sets of cards.

I'll definately be picking up a Tzeentch Chariot kit when I head down to the GW store to pick-up my pre-order next weekend. And I'll almost certainly be adding another chariot at some point as well - that kit is simply a converter's dream!
I'm loving the birdy head option on the Herald, I'm hoping it won't look too small on the plastic Daemon Prince as it will fit perfectly for converting up an 'evil looking Horus' to fit in with Tzeentch's ancient Egyptian styles.

Only 7 more sleeps till release!

I have to say that those plague flies look fantastic in the new pics. Not having those stupid looking trunks helps a lot too.

I only have one complaint. We now have around double the amount of HQ choices, of any other codex. While that wouldn't normally be an issue, it seems that some of the herald's have become almost mandatory (The nurgle herald the only way to give plaguebearers feel no pain, for instance)

This would be fine, except that you either have to take 4 heralds, which means no monstrous creatures -whatsoever- in a daemons army, something completely bonkers in my mind, or you can only take 2, limiting your improved troops choices.

This, makes me sad. The whole point of a daemons army when I started, was the awesome concept of being able to take monstrous creatures, especially when they seemed to take the role of tanks for other armies. Now, we have chariot's as our tank equivalent, which just don't seem to cut it in my eyes...

All I can hope is, that they have some ruling, that means you can take an extra herald per troops choice you take, which would make this pretty dang awesome, and would mean I could at least take both my great unclean one, and a daemon prince as my monstrous creatures, rather than having to choose between them.

Still sad that the max monstrous creatures daemons can take now, is 2 per army, with every single one being HQ's :(

**Extremely disappointing** - and in line with the Slaughterbrute.

Not a single model (apart from the bloodletters) that I would even consider owning.

Way to cartoonish to the point that they no longer fit with the rest of the GW line (also the "mixing of chaos gods within an army"-thing as the default choice makes me really sad).

GW is definitely suffering in the middle of a shift between hand sculpted minis - and computer sculpted ones. Some designers (Aly Morrison etc.) who produced bad minis before seem to become even worse when trying to use a computer.

It seems that sculpting Fantasy vehicles on ze computer is much harder than doing Space Marine stuff.

Also, trying to make vehicles that can be used for both Fantasy and 40k is downright stupid/greedy.

Hopefully GW realise this and will have retired a lot of miniature designers that doesn't cut it before the Dark Elf line is about to get redone.

I (still) have high hopes for the DE release; Cauldron of Blood, Chariots, Beasts, Harpies, Infantry with spears/crossbows, Witch Elves, ...

So does anyone else think the art is pretty awful on the limited edition covers? I was gonna buy one, but just went for the regular codex instead as I thought all 4 pictures were just bad. I like the new models pretty good, which I guess is more important in the long run, but the LE covers.... bleh.

For Fantasy, I noticed that the Beast of Nurgle, Fiend, Bloodcrushers and (notably) furies have all moved to Special.

Rare now holds the Soul Grinder, the god specific chariots and the Plague Drones.

 squall018 wrote:
So does anyone else think the art is pretty awful on the limited edition covers? I was gonna buy one, but just went for the regular codex instead as I thought all 4 pictures were just bad. I like the new models pretty good, which I guess is more important in the long run, but the LE covers.... bleh.

I just cannot fathom why anyone would buy a Ltd. Ed. Codex?

I mean, here in Oz they're AUD$150 (which for those keeping score at home is more than US$150), and for what? A tiny bit of artwork on a black cover, and a black ribbon? Huh? Why would you part with that much money for that?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 squall018 wrote:
So does anyone else think the art is pretty awful on the limited edition covers? I was gonna buy one, but just went for the regular codex instead as I thought all 4 pictures were just bad. I like the new models pretty good, which I guess is more important in the long run, but the LE covers.... bleh.

I just cannot fathom why anyone would buy a Ltd. Ed. Codex?

I mean, here in Oz they're AUD$150 (which for those keeping score at home is more than US$150), and for what? A tiny bit of artwork on a black cover, and a black ribbon? Huh? Why would you part with that much money for that?

I usually buy the LE, read over it, and the sell it on eBay. The money people pay usually allows me to then buy the regular codex for almost free. So that's why I would buy it, but I don't know of anyone is gonna want these after (if) they sell out. Art is bad IMO

I bought the Limited Edition Codex (Tzeentch). Although I am a little nervous, if someone tore it, or spilt something on it, or it got stolen it is irreplaceable. Unlike a regular codex. Also I might have to wait a few more days for it to arrive.

But I already have a huge Tzeentch Daemon collection, I doubt I will be buying any new models.

And I don't want a Bloodletter on the front of my Tzeentch armies Codex! OCD I know, but after you've made army Objective Markers, got army themed dice, even a tape measure, perhaps even a T-shirt or a even a tattoo, the Limited Edition Codex is a nice little addition.

 XT-1984 wrote:
I bought the Limited Edition Codex (Tzeentch). Although I am a little nervous, if someone tore it, or spilt something on it, or it got stolen it is irreplaceable. Unlike a regular codex. Also I might have to wait a few more days for it to arrive.

But I already have a huge Tzeentch Daemon collection, I doubt I will be buying any new models.

And I don't want a Bloodletter on the front of my Tzeentch armies Codex! OCD I know, but after you've made army Objective Markers, got army themed dice, even a tape measure, perhaps even a T-shirt or a even a tattoo, the Limited Edition Codex is a nice little addition.

That's fair... and the tattoo is pretty hardcore.

 XT-1984 wrote:
I bought the Limited Edition Codex (Tzeentch). Although I am a little nervous, if someone tore it, or spilt something on it, or it got stolen it is irreplaceable. Unlike a regular codex. Also I might have to wait a few more days for it to arrive.

But I already have a huge Tzeentch Daemon collection, I doubt I will be buying any new models.

And I don't want a Bloodletter on the front of my Tzeentch armies Codex! OCD I know, but after you've made army Objective Markers, got army themed dice, even a tape measure, perhaps even a T-shirt or a even a tattoo, the Limited Edition Codex is a nice little addition.

I bet you Tzeentch's lunch money you get at least 2 of th enew chariots!

As a fellow devotee to Lord Tzeentch, his constant cackling whispers about how much I really did want them got to me...
Despite the fact I've already converted up a Herald on chariot.


Still, I'm not overly impressed with the new Khornate chariot - just too wierd for me.
So my 'counts as' Skulltaker will keep his pimped-out TK chariot 'o death which is pulled by his 4 favourite flesh puppies!

thats dedication XT-1984 !!!

tzeentch might have a plan for you....

greetings Badger

I'm hoping I can make a mostly themed Tzeentch allies! I still like Bloodcrushers, and the flys are cool. We'll just have to see when codex drops.

Everything looks WAY better up close. Ironically, the Plague Drones are my favorites of the lot!

The Khorne Chariots look insane, and that's not really a bad thing.

Still meh on the Tzeentch chariots, though. Perhaps they should have gone with a more conservative approach for the Khorne-y stuff and leave the madness for Tzeentch. A disk pulled by two screamers is way too obvious for the Changer of Ways.

I hope we get our own warlord table like Chaos marines did. The tables in the BRB are useless.

The only thing I'll probably get is the Khorne Chariot and use it as a base for a conversion.
The Khorne Herald isn't bad, but really you can make a decent looking herald using the champion parts from a blood crusher kit.

Was never a fan of the current demon models, every one is an ugly cartoonish mess
that and the fantasy books are always tainted by Matt Ward

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Everything looks WAY better up close. Ironically, the Plague Drones are my favorites of the lot!

The Khorne Chariots look insane, and that's not really a bad thing.

Still meh on the Tzeentch chariots, though. Perhaps they should have gone with a more conservative approach for the Khorne-y stuff and leave the madness for Tzeentch. A disk pulled by two screamers is way too obvious for the Changer of Ways.

I've actually got the exact opposite opinion. The Pictures really improved my liking for the Tzeentch Chariots, but I still dislike the Khorne chariot. I still think Bloodcrushers are the best Khorne Models to date.

Given that Juggernauts are 'daemonic living machines of war' I'd have though a fused chariot using them would have been on the cards. Not the 'khorne mower'.

 blood reaper wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:
Karanak and the Changeling are listed as HQ units now
And Lords and Heroes for WFB

I can imagine Karanak making Flesh Hounds troop choices, or something along those lines.

Maybe. I'm thinking it'll be treated as a herald.

After taking a look at the pics on the GW site I can't say I loved any of the new models, but I did think the new plague flies were cool, and way cooler envisioning the riders missing.
So for the time being I just got the book and the powers cards, waiting to see if adding anything to my collection is a good idea.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Given that Juggernauts are 'daemonic living machines of war' I'd have though a fused chariot using them would have been on the cards. Not the 'khorne mower'.

\

Stealing this idea.

Thank you sir.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Clear photos on bright backgrounds with good lighting = Good!
WD photo team photographing things with heavy shadow on dark backgrounds = Bad!

This has been puzzling me as well, why are WD photos so dark nowadays?

Backfire wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Clear photos on bright backgrounds with good lighting = Good!
WD photo team photographing things with heavy shadow on dark backgrounds = Bad!

This has been puzzling me as well, why are WD photos so dark nowadays?

It's cinematic

Backfire wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Clear photos on bright backgrounds with good lighting = Good!
WD photo team photographing things with heavy shadow on dark backgrounds = Bad!

This has been puzzling me as well, why are WD photos so dark nowadays?

A agree. I like the photos lightened up so I can see the detail better. Dark backgrounds, lots of shadows does not equate to a good presentation.

 LordRogalDorn wrote:
After taking a look at the pics on the GW site I can't say I loved any of the new models, but I did think the new plague flies were cool, and way cooler envisioning the riders missing.
So for the time being I just got the book and the powers cards, waiting to see if adding anything to my collection is a good idea.

This is what I'll be doing too. And I'll be converting Khorne chariots from WoC metal chariots and blood crushers.

Anyone notice that the GW website lists the Nurgle DP as T4?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440199a&prodId=prod1160103a

Mohoc wrote:
Anyone notice that the GW website lists the Nurgle DP as T4?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440199a&prodId=prod1160103a

No...you can't do that....not without eternal warrior dammit!

The darker backgrounds on the white dwarf pictures might be GW attempting to limit picture clarity on leaked pictures since they know they have a higher chance of being seen ahead of time.

I actually like the khorne mower..sorry the name stuck in my head. The nose just doesn't look like it fits the reast of the model.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Given that Juggernauts are 'daemonic living machines of war' I'd have though a fused chariot using them would have been on the cards. Not the 'khorne mower'.

Great description of that mess of a model

And to think I was nervous about giving up the world of GW for Flames of war/historical wargaming. I wish I could go back in time to congratulate myself on that decision.

If anybody wanted evidence that GW had given up the ghost of being a serious hobby company, this was it. I've seen a lot of bad models from GW in my time, but this beats the lot.

The heralds are bland and uninspring, as though they had been done by a trainee, not a veteran.

The plague drones look like something you would see at a zoo, and the less said about the khorne mower the better. If GW are expecting that much cash for a piece of coral (Tzeentch chariot) then you may as well pay a similar amount on the entry fee to your local sea world centre and see the real thing.

Total mess.

Just speculating: Maybe 2 Greater Daemons were planned for the first wave, but as a reaction to the recent price discussion GW opted to release the 300$ (1000AU$) plastic kits at a later date

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Given that Juggernauts are 'daemonic living machines of war' I'd have though a fused chariot using them would have been on the cards. Not the 'khorne mower'.

Great description of that mess of a model

And to think I was nervous about giving up the world of GW for Flames of war/historical wargaming. I wish I could go back in time to congratulate myself on that decision.

If anybody wanted evidence that GW had given up the ghost of being a serious hobby company, this was it. I've seen a lot of bad models from GW in my time, but this beats the lot.

The heralds are bland and uninspring, as though they had been done by a trainee, not a veteran.

The plague drones look like something you would see at a zoo, and the less said about the khorne mower the better. If GW are expecting that much cash for a piece of coral (Tzeentch chariot) then you may as well pay a similar amount on the entry fee to your local sea world centre and see the real thing.

Total mess.

Lol. You're kidding right?
Hating for hating sake is pretty petty.
The models have plenty of detail, and to judge a model by its paint job is ignorant. I may not like the models, but i dont let my personal opinion determine whether a model is good or not. That's just plain stupid.

New Models

I don't like the giant flys - the big Toads that Forge World made are much better IMO
Burning Chariot is really horrible for me -but I do like the Herald from the same kit - lots of great stuff with that version.
Similar with the Blood Chariot but like the Skull Cannon
Herald of Nurgle is ok but like the other Finecast - horribly overpriced.
Herald of Khrone looks great
Not keen on the Herald of Slaanesh - Raging Heroes do this type of figure much better.

Nice art work on the Codex / army book covers - but again they are overpriced for what they are and hence a non purchase until they come up cheap on ebay.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The heralds are bland and uninspring, as though they had been done by a trainee, not a veteran.

Look at the Nurgle Herald. It has an astonishing amount of detail. Are you honestly saying that you find it uninspiring?

I'm not trying to hate on you, I'm just amazed that you find it "bland".

The heralds kinda look too much like the plastic models they are emulating...

 4oursword wrote:
The heralds kinda look too much like the plastic models they are emulating...

Seeing that Heralds are just Better Versions of the basic troops of the Gods..., it makes sens...

 4oursword wrote:
The heralds kinda look too much like the plastic models they are emulating...

Gawd guy's, space marine sergeant's look too much like space marines.

My problem is not the detail of the Herald of Nurgle, but nothing stands out to any of the other Plaguebearers. It's not a bad model though.

 blood reaper wrote:
My problem is not the detail of the Herald of Nurgle, but nothing stands out to any of the other Plaguebearers. It's not a bad model though.

Paint standard plaguebearers green. Paint herald albino, or corpse grey, or bloody red, or bruise purple, or scabby brown, or whatever you like to symbolise the difference

Evileyes wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
My problem is not the detail of the Herald of Nurgle, but nothing stands out to any of the other Plaguebearers. It's not a bad model though.

Paint standard plaguebearers green. Paint herald albino, or corpse grey, or bloody red, or bruise purple, or scabby brown, or whatever you like to symbolise the difference

I'm just making one with the plastic box set. £15 for a single plastic model? No way. £10 or £11 pounds, but £15?

 blood reaper wrote:

Evileyes wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
My problem is not the detail of the Herald of Nurgle, but nothing stands out to any of the other Plaguebearers. It's not a bad model though.

Paint standard plaguebearers green. Paint herald albino, or corpse grey, or bloody red, or bruise purple, or scabby brown, or whatever you like to symbolise the difference

I'm just making one with the plastic box set. £15 for a single plastic model? No way. £10 or £11 pounds, but £15?

Despite me liking the model, I have to agree, the one with the plaguebearers box is still pretty epic in itself, with it's handfull of heads and huge sword. Plus, the whole, getting 9 extra plaguebearers for 3 pounds more

Evileyes wrote:

 4oursword wrote:
The heralds kinda look too much like the plastic models they are emulating...

Gawd guy's, space marine sergeant's look too much like space marines.

Use Space Marine Sergeants as Heralds of Nurgle. Use Heralds of Nurgle as Space Marine Sergeants.

Fixed.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Given that Juggernauts are 'daemonic living machines of war' I'd have though a fused chariot using them would have been on the cards. Not the 'khorne mower'.

Having looked at the sprues it seems as though this will actually be able to be done.

-Shrike- wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The heralds are bland and uninspring, as though they had been done by a trainee, not a veteran.

Look at the Nurgle Herald. It has an astonishing amount of detail. Are you honestly saying that you find it uninspiring?

I'm not trying to hate on you, I'm just amazed that you find it "bland".

Yeah, I do think it's bland. For $25 I'd expect more than a normal plaguebearer with some extra bits stuck to that. As an earlier poster said, you could do that with the contents of the plaguebeaer box. I suspect many people will make their own heralds.

It's probably best I put this in my signature, but for the record (again) I freely admit to spending hundreds of pounds on GW stuff, and, shock horror, enjoying GW games. So now and again I don't like their stuff, so what? That's not hating for hating's sake, that's expressing my God given right to a personal view.

This is not a personal attack, just a response to some of the threads above. I'm not picking on individuals here.

I'm completely in with these releases all accept the khorn mobile. It is such a shame as this could really have been a great model. My problem is unusually the model is too "sleek". It should be more like a large blood crusher, maybe with a single spiked wheel at the back.

The way it is it looks more slanneshi not khorn like at all, just a real shame it could have been a really great model.

Actually looking at the model again it could make an excellent dark elder conversion to go along side these with minimal work.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1780153a_99120112016_Cronos01_445x319.jpg

Neronoxx wrote:

I may not like the models, but i dont let my personal opinion determine whether a model is good or not. That's just plain stupid.

You're right, who wants to use their own personal opinion to determine if they like a model or not - that's what internet forums are for!

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

I may not like the models, but i dont let my personal opinion determine whether a model is good or not. That's just plain stupid.

You're right, who wants to use their own personal opinion to determine if they like a model or not - that's what internet forums are for!

Hahaha, personality, that's far too mainstream for me.

Has there been any word on how Eppy and the Tally work now?

Uhm I may have missed something (long thread) but the books contain nothing new bar being in hardback
Are the Nurgle Drones included in them?

Oh my god! Those blight drones are so amazing! I shall have to get some for my nurgle army. Ive been waiting a long time for something like that!

 Ratius wrote:
Uhm I may have missed something (long thread) but the books contain nothing new bar being in hardback
Are the Nurgle Drones included in them?

You mean other than all the new models and new rules?

 Ratius wrote:
Uhm I may have missed something (long thread) but the books contain nothing new bar being in hardback
Are the Nurgle Drones included in them?

The books are completely a new Army Book (Fantasy)/Codex (40K) so will have a whole bunch of changed/additions/subtractions from the old ones

the limited edition versions are just the standard one with a different cover, marker ribbon (and limited edition number) unless you HAVE to have your favorite gods version, probably not worth having

Ahhh right, thanks for the clarification

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Uhm I may have missed something (long thread) but the books contain nothing new bar being in hardback
Are the Nurgle Drones included in them?

The books are completely a new Army Book (Fantasy)/Codex (40K) so will have a whole bunch of changed/additions/subtractions from the old ones

the limited edition versions are just the standard one with a different cover, marker ribbon (and limited edition number) unless you HAVE to have your favorite gods version, probably not worth having

There's no "probably" about it. I don't know who would pay $100 for a book with a different cver and ribbon. The codices are overpriced enough as it,is. People don't get them for collecting nice looking books. They get them for the game primarily, which is why they just need softcover black and white and charge $20 like a non-crazy company.

My opinions on the new models are that the new heralds are kind of not too special.

The rest of the new models are mostly good except for the tzeentch stuff which doesn't look that appealing to me for some reason. I love the lord of change (tzeentch) but the daemonic stuff is usually not as cool looking in comparison to the warriors of chaos and chaos marines themed tzeentch units in my eyes.

The nurgle plague flies are awesome to me. Sure the riders are a bit meh but not a huge deal.

The khorne chariot is awesome and yeah the bloodletters at the front aren't too fantastic and in some ways it's a little weird as a fantasy/40k combo unit since it had to suit both but whatever it still works for me. I'm more unsure about the khorne cannon (interesting name hehe) because i always saw khorne as a melee blood and skulls type of guy. He hates magic and to an extent probably considers ranged attacks cowardly so a khorne themed cannon seems a bit strange to me even if it launches skulls.

So yeah my opinions overall is that the new model line is pretty good. It's not like the dark eldar model release or the vampire counts models release with as fantastic set-piece models but for me it looks a h*ll of a lot better than the warriors of chaos release.

Also i find it ridiculous 40k players would complain about these new models. In my opinion 40k models can range from awesome to sucking whereas with fantasy new models are either fantastic to about average. Fantasy in my opinion seems to have a better track record than say the storm raven, dreadknight, warp talons shenanigans BS 40k players have to put up with.

Also even with the new dark angels models the look of that land speeder with the plasma storm battery gunner's other option with the statue he basically fires looks stupid. I mean what's that gunner doing with the statue? It looks absolutely slowed. Is he firing some holiness aura of doom at people and cranking up the 'pure-i-ness' of the f*cking thing?! This might just be me but somebody totally has to turn the plasma storm battery gunner into a DJ with giant *ss speakers surrounding him on that thing. It needs to happen. Do it!

The dark angels model i'm talking about for ease of reference.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat860011a&prodId=prod1830076a

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

This is not a personal attack, just a response to some of the threads above. I'm not picking on individuals here.

Oh yeah? Well your opinion is a personal attack on my God-given right to consider other people's opinions personal attacks!



Okay, so on topic, do you guys think there'd be any problems with using the plague drones riderless? I quite like the fly models, but the riders just seem... I dunno, just unceremoniously plunked down on top of them without much thought. Kinda clunky. Too big relative to the flies to seem realistic (and yes, I realize the questionableness of needing little plastic daemons of chaos to look "realistic", but it still bothers me). I think I saw that the models have plague swords as wargear, so maybe I'd have to do something to represent those?

vanadium322 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

This is not a personal attack, just a response to some of the threads above. I'm not picking on individuals here.

Oh yeah? Well your opinion is a personal attack on my God-given right to consider other people's opinions personal attacks!



Okay, so on topic, do you guys think there'd be any problems with using the plague drones riderless? I quite like the fly models, but the riders just seem... I dunno, just unceremoniously plunked down on top of them without much thought. Kinda clunky. Too big relative to the flies to seem realistic (and yes, I realize the questionableness of needing little plastic daemons of chaos to look "realistic", but it still bothers me). I think I saw that the models have plague swords as wargear, so maybe I'd have to do something to represent those?

This is generally what green stuff and converting is for sadly. Just find some better looking pose or something. I'm no converter myself (though i send all the ones that come to my door away) but with enough fixing maybe you could make the pose a bit more dynamic. Maybe add some sort of harness for the plague bearers. Also if you ever need something plague ridden and can't find something worthy that's nurgle themed then maybe you could use some clan pestilens plague monks or similar which are basically nurgle rats. That said i'm more waiting till skaven get yet another re-release before plague monks, other elite units, many weapons teams and characters get a much needed facelift. I do find that nurgle and plague monks could be fairly inter-change-able if somebody so chose.

Put nurglings on top of the fly, instead of plaguebearers, maybe?

I would personally proxy the Flies themselves as FW Blight Drones as they are simply too expensive from FW imho.
/shrug

 Janthkin wrote:
Put nurglings on top of the fly, instead of plaguebearers, maybe?

I really really like that idea! The thought of giving the nurglings swords that are bigger than they are also makes me smile, but it might look a little too silly...

And ironically, I already have three Blight Drones, so I may end up proxying them the other way around to try the new flies...

Evileyes wrote:

 4oursword wrote:
The heralds kinda look too much like the plastic models they are emulating...

Gawd guy's, space marine sergeant's look too much like space marines.

I get your point, I do. But it's different in this case, and maybe it's just not been explained better. I think sergeants do stand out in a lot of really visible ways - they have a chainsword or power weapon, they generally have bare heads (or an alternately-painted helmet), they often have a better mark of armor, and a pistol instead of a boltgun generally, and possibly a banner on the backpack. I think if you look at a squad of marines, you can immediately tell who is an elite vs a standard trooper.



I think it's less so with the Nurgle Herald - I think he simply blends in too well with the other plaguebearers.



But I'm not really sure on the scale. If he's substantially taller, that might work. Right now I think all you can do is paint him in slightly different shade, and that's just not good enough for a model that costs $25 or whatever, vs those other models that are $3 each.

I really want to buy the korne mower and green stuff some electric gitars on the two guys in the front. think it would look fun

So if the idea is that this was hurried to get rid of the last remnants of Allesio's touch on WHFB and WH40k, does that mean we have a new Skaven book to look forward to before any other FB armies get updated? Because I can't wait for that. Definitely give me more updated 7e books for 8e. WOOOOOOO!!!

 blood lance wrote:

The one on the bottom left is going "Free chicken drum to the one who eats the marine first!"

(How do you make images smaller D: )

I think my favorite thing about this release is the fact some of the riders have no eyes, unless there are tiny little eye slits in there?

I think they have very small yellow eyes, just the one mind you. It could probably be painted like a pustule, skin or even sculpted over. Kind of want to make an army of blind plague bearers now...

 Ouze wrote:


But I'm not really sure on the scale. If he's substantially taller, that might work. Right now I think all you can do is paint him in slightly different shade, and that's just not good enough for a model that costs $25 or whatever, vs those other models that are $3 each.

Your herald was about 10% too small, if you match up the base sizes. That's not a huge difference. Here they are at what should be accurate relative size:

 Nagashek wrote:
So if the idea is that this was hurried to get rid of the last remnants of Allesio's touch on WHFB and WH40k, does that mean we have a new Skaven book to look forward to before any other FB armies get updated? Because I can't wait for that. Definitely give me more updated 7e books for 8e. WOOOOOOO!!!

You mean the Skaven book that was written by Jeremy Vetock?

I don't see how replacing it helps remove Allesio from the picture...

I think the heralds look a bit alike, but essentially they are just more powerful lessers. The heralds of Khorne are just ex Bloodletters that were chosen by Khorne himself an became more powerful.

Also, with the heralds, if you want to make them diverse, always remember that Chaos Daemons are convertible as feth! And this will always be... It may actually be waht GW is after, daemons' models are just a basis for what players to "improve" on or just express their own views of chaos. Hell, you could make horrors by filling a small tray with glue, throwing in some bitz and then mixing them up and letting them dry.

Take these models as a BLESSING or GIFT, and improve them as you wish.

Personally though, I love them. The Nurglesque herald is as sick-looking as it should be (or it COULD be more ickly, but I could always handle that meself), the Tzeenchian herald is just BEGGING for conversion, and you can do whatever you wish with the other two.

But one question: has Slaanesh been buffed in this dex? Because then I might be interested in starting a small daemons force someday.

vanadium322 wrote:
Your herald was about 10% too small, if you match up the base sizes. That's not a huge difference. Here they are at what should be accurate relative size:

Yeah.... that's a lot better. Thanks.

 Ouze wrote:

vanadium322 wrote:
Your herald was about 10% too small, if you match up the base sizes. That's not a huge difference. Here they are at what should be accurate relative size:

Yeah.... that's a lot better. Thanks.

Even so, he looks more like a nurgle plaguebearer champion than to me. I will be using this guy on a round base as my Herald of Nurgle.


He simply stands out much than new Herald. IMHO

I did post this link earlier, but it may have got a bit overwhelmed by all the excitement.

For those who want a little more variety in their daemons....

http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.php?showtopic=9270&st=0

Man, if I played nurgle or Slaanesh I'd be pretty upset about the heralds.

If I played Khorne I'd be stoked about the herald. Less so about the cannon. Because every time I look at it I see a penis or scrotum, and I'd wonder if it was just me.

40k-noob wrote:
Even so, he looks more like a nurgle plaguebearer champion than to me. I will be using this guy on a round base as my Herald of Nurgle.


He simply stands out much than new Herald. IMHO

Damn, that guy might actually make for a nice herald.

I think they are kinda' meant to be a basis for conversion (just a sad excuse). That way you can just take a herald model as a base and add your own extra bits from other kits and/or GS to make them stick out.

The nurgle plague things are pretty cool.

The other stuff is unimpressive.

GW really has lost it. They just do the same gimmick over and over again. No new Greater Daemon models is just WTF.

the whole army didn't need a redo, it was still powerful in its own right, but hey hand it to matt ward, the man who caused fantasy to need a total overhall, one many people didn't like and caused shrinking numbers in the game
oh and the models are ugly as sin (especially khorne and slaanesh, I admit the old bloodletters were static but they looked like proper fearsome demons, now they look like unrotted plague bearers, with too big a head.

Griever wrote:
The nurgle plague things are pretty cool.

The other stuff is unimpressive.

GW really has lost it. They just do the same gimmick over and over again. No new Greater Daemon models is just WTF.

Tell that to CSM players who are still waiting for Plastic TSons and Plaque Marines, and new Zerkers Sculpts+ new Abby and Kharn models( the 3 last are 15years old...)

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Griever wrote:
The nurgle plague things are pretty cool.

The other stuff is unimpressive.

GW really has lost it. They just do the same gimmick over and over again. No new Greater Daemon models is just WTF.

Tell that to CSM players who are still waiting for Plastic TSons and Plaque Marines, and new Zerkers Sculpts+ new Abby and Kharn models( the 3 last are 15years old...)

Are you sure the plastic Berzerkers are 15 years old?

Closer to 12 but they are pretty old. They were one of the first plastic Chaos sets.

well damn............

the tzeentch disk is ok I guess but the rest....see this is the reason why Istocked up on metal daemonettes >.>

speaking of which that slaaneshi herlad....I'm out...I quit q.q

 Hulksmash wrote:
Closer to 12 but they are pretty old. They were one of the first plastic Chaos sets.

Plastic Noise Marines would have been nice....

...And another disappointing release to add to the record. And good god, those prices do not help things at all.

So are there any rumors as to what will be contained weapon wise in like a demonic armory? special weapons that can only be be brought once like they've done in the past few codex's?

Took 1st in local tournament today running the Screamer Flamer bomb I called "in before the nerf"
Im gonna miss ya :(

Speculation from what I have read.

Flamers and screamers are "Nerfed" if their stats stay the same, which is very likely except leadership will probably drop.

The loss of eternal warrior is a nerf. It's not catastrophic, but it's not minor.

Fearless turning into deamonic instability is a big cc nerf. It won't hurt screamers that hard because they inflict good combat res, but it should probably hurt flamers really good. The way instability/crumble works in fantasy is deamons/undead use their leadership stat (probably 7 or 8 for deamons)to make leadership tests when cc is lost just like a morale test, and instead of breaking they remove wounds with no saves whatsoever for every point they fail by. No saves=no invo, no FNP, no armor, nothing. Fantasy deamonic instability is 5th ed fearless on amphetamines.

Example based off speculation So if hammernaters charge flamers, flamers inflict 1 unsaved wound, termies inflict 4 unsaved wounds which ID 4 flamers, termies win by 7 combat res. Flamers take instability test at a -7 on leadership 7. They roll and 8 and the unit takes 8 more wounds for a total of 16 between 8 in cc damage and 8 in deamonic instability.

Deamonic instability + the loss of EW should be a healthy nerf to flamers.

Next: Loss of deamonic assault.
I don't think this one's a nerf. All those deamons are going to start on the table turn 1 with no mishaps. Flamers/screamers can deploy behind terrain and jump over on turn 1.

All of that being said I think the white dwarf rules were the final version of flamers and screamers except maybe for a new leadership stat.

Nurgle and shrouded V FNP. In melee FNP is definitely better. When being shot at most of the time shrouded is better. Against shooting single 3+ save is better than a pair of 5+, and a 2+ is way better. Shrouded units in ruins=2+ cover. Shrouded units in cover going to ground=2+ cover. If deamonic instability replaces fearless and doesn't prohibit going to ground plaguebearers are going to be even more difficult to shoot off an objective than they were in 5th ed or pre 6th ed codex 6th ed.

Heralds buffing a unit. Having a herald gives a unit in fantasy a unit wide bonus. That encourages large units to maximize the bonus. Large units of troops is a totally different direction than what most current 40k deamon armies do. Some of them, especially pink horrors can become very vulnerable to deamonic instability in large groups.

Anyhow the rumored changed sound interesting and fun. It sounds like it's going to be a powerful yet balanced 6th ed codex. Hopefully it has multiple competitive builds like the DA codex.

This release may be the push I needed to start a small Daemons Fantasy Army!

 schadenfreude wrote:


Next: Loss of deamonic assault.
I don't think this one's a nerf. All those deamons are going to start on the table turn 1 with no mishaps. Flamers/screamers can deploy behind terrain and jump over on turn 1.

They didn't lose it completely. It was said in the WD that all daemon units have deep strike. And it was also shown that icons still allow for deep strikers to not scatter. So now we can use fast units like the plague drones to move forward and get in a good position to allow units to deep strike up the board without worry. Kind of like demonic Ravenwing.

 wowsmash wrote:
I really want to buy the korne mower and green stuff some electric gitars on the two guys in the front. think it would look fun

Not guitars but a chain AXE

I think my favorite thing about this release is the fact some of the riders have no eyes, unless there are tiny little eye slits in there?

They have a single eye (or three on one of them), which is a common Nurgle mutation going back to the original Rogue Trader and Realm Of Chaos era.

Are you sure the plastic Berzerkers are 15 years old?

Yes, they are.

Closer to 12 but they are pretty old. They were one of the first plastic Chaos sets.

No, that's incorrect. They are indeed about 15 years old (released sometime in 1998).

 Janthkin wrote:
Plastic Noise Marines would have been nice....

And ones that looked like they were playing instruments brought back!

Whatever you guys say... Personally I like these models. And that is what matters to me.

where is some skyfire units and flyers like helldrake or something like that? or some heavy units like soulgrinder??

only 2-3 new units for new codex sucks!

against flyers have no chance!

neuminic wrote:
where is some skyfire units and flyers like helldrake or something like that? or some heavy units like soulgrinder??

only 2-3 new units for new codex sucks!

against flyers have no chance!

Calm down.

Soulgrinder has skyfire.

Besides, having mass invilnerable saves makes flyers a bit less dangerous for us anyway.

Can I ask why people don't like the look of the plastic daemons?

Khorne: Ok the Bloodletters look less buff but at least they have a great snarling mad beast look to them and still have the look of a soldier.

Nurgle: Improvement hands down, bearers look unique while at the same time you can see which one is the sgt and which is a grunt because of some nice little extras here and there.

Slaanesh: I really don't get all the hate people seem to have for the Daemonettes, do you really miss painting a bare breast that much?

The only plastic daemons I really hate are the horrors, old ones were a lot better. The main problem with the daemonettes is that they're just so static, if it weren't for that I'd be fine with them, too.

Everything else is just terrible, though. That Khorne "chariot" thing doesn't really impress and the giant flies...seriously, come on, that's almost as bad as the thunderwolf cavalry. They couldn't have given them something a little more mechanical like the FW drone? It's not like it wouldn't fit in a fantasy army, look at the kinda gak Khorne brings to battle FFS.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Nagashek wrote:
So if the idea is that this was hurried to get rid of the last remnants of Allesio's touch on WHFB and WH40k, does that mean we have a new Skaven book to look forward to before any other FB armies get updated? Because I can't wait for that. Definitely give me more updated 7e books for 8e. WOOOOOOO!!!

You mean the Skaven book that was written by Jeremy Vetock?

I don't see how replacing it helps remove Allesio from the picture...

Mrr? Really? My Google Fu must be pretty damned weak then. Trying to find which book was written by whom is really rough unless you own them, seemingly. Then, it's still no guarantee as so many of them don't even list the bloody author properly. >.<

Still irritated Daemons got updated already, but tempered by the knowledge that they were the most overpowered of 7e and the most in need of 8e treatment to stop them from continued curbstomping in 8th. Honesly think they should have gotten updated before Vamps, actually, but the WE/Brets/Dwarves situation is so perverse at this point that the release schedule couldn't keep up with how quickly they SHOULD have been released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melkhiordarkblade wrote:

Slaanesh: I really don't get all the hate people seem to have for the Daemonettes, do you really miss painting a bare breast that much?

Yes. Yes I do.

Along with that, however, is that, even if the old daemonnettes were just covered up, I'd still prefer them. Their faces were eerily beautiful IMO, their frames belying a deadly grace offset by the malformed spikes, demonic feet and tentacle hair. The new ones just don't compare, but that's years of disappointment now. Don't care for any of this newer stuff, but meh. It just means that even now I wouldn't be starting a Daemon army, even if I was still giving GW money. I will continue to wait for WE and Dwarves to get updated and see what happens. Or WHFB 9e

EDIT: Oh. Hunh. Just saw Faet posted that Mat Ward is doing WHFB daemons again.

Well. That answers that then. :flips table:

What, really? People prefer the old metal deamonettes?
I like the plastic set so much I got some despite knowing they would never do me any good on the battlefield.
They have a great eerie ghostly feel, like drowned spirits caught in a slow floating motion coming back from a deep abyss, lethal and otherwordly.
The old ones were all caught in an awkward pose trying to handle those bulky lobsterclaws.

Ofcourse, thats just my oppinion, and the old ones are not to bad I guess, just not what I would prefer.

I think you missed the lithe daemonettes that came out in the mid 2000's. they had knives and delicate blade arms. The models for them riding steeds were 100x better than the current seekers (IMHO).

The ones that were bald and had huge lobster claws came out in the 90's.

 Fayric wrote:
What, really? People prefer the old metal deamonettes?
I like the plastic set so much I got some despite knowing they would never do me any good on the battlefield.
They have a great eerie ghostly feel, like drowned spirits caught in a slow floating motion coming back from a deep abyss, lethal and otherwordly.
The old ones were all caught in an awkward pose trying to handle those bulky lobsterclaws.

Ofcourse, thats just my oppinion, and the old ones are not to bad I guess, just not what I would prefer.

You're remembering the wrong metal daemonettes. The last set before the plastics weren't lobster-clawed.

 Nagashek wrote:

EDIT: Oh. Hunh. Just saw Faet posted that Mat Ward is doing WHFB daemons again.

Well. That answers that then. :flips table:

Don't worry, I'm betting we're in for something closer the 7th ed O&G's in power level...

Just look at poor papa Nurgle - he lost 4 wounds and yet another attack!
At this rate, he'll have a single attack by the 10th edition update!

 Sidstyler wrote:
That Khorne "chariot" thing doesn't really impress and the giant flies...seriously, come on, that's almost as bad as the thunderwolf cavalry.

What's wrong with the thunderwolf cavalry? I like the models, despite the perhaps ugly riders' faces...

 LlamaAgility wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
That Khorne "chariot" thing doesn't really impress and the giant flies...seriously, come on, that's almost as bad as the thunderwolf cavalry.

What's wrong with the thunderwolf cavalry? I like the models, despite the perhaps ugly riders' faces...

Some folks are just never satisfied. Remember opinions are personal.

I am not sure whether anyone else has pointed this out, but a 50 CAD plastic tzeentch chariot includes 2 screamers along with a herald, a disc, 3 horrors and a giant flamer, plus bits, where 3 screamers alone are 40 CAD?

Assuming you can muster the minimal green-stuff skills to make up the chopped ends of screamer tails, when removed from the disc, it seems like the chariot is a better buy.

It looks like the Tzeentch Chariot has 2 different middle parts to the disc. So, if you greenstuff the middle of the disc, you can get 2 small discs for Tzeentch Raptors, and bigger disc for a ChaosLord/Sorcerer.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Just look at poor papa Nurgle - he lost 4 wounds and yet another attack!
At this rate, he'll have a single attack by the 10th edition update!

I think that's bad info you're working off of. Somebody's working off blurry shots, but when zoomed in, its pretty apparent that the GUO has 5 attacks now, not 3. I'm not finding that screenshot again, but if I recall correctly, the thing's toughness also went up to 7. (Edit: WS up by 2 as well, if I'm remembering right. Point being- let's keep the demonic violins from playing sad tunes just yet w/respect to rules and stats.)

Perhaps small comfort to a model who was once safe from being one-shotted by a cannon, but still...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440199a&prodId=prod860026a

Deamon Princes are T4? This is new to me.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440199a&prodId=prod860026a

Deamon Princes are T4? This is new to me.

Lame. Monstrous creatures should be harder to take down than that. With the loss of EW and T4, why bother fielding them at all?

Just compare those stats to the chaos space marines DP which has +2 WS, +1S, +1T, +3I, +1A and -1Ld compared to the daemons DP

Here's hoping that GW just really screwed up on the website.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Here's hoping that GW just really screwed up on the website.

Stats have been wrong on the website many times before. I remember seeing the Praetorians being 2A on the website, and everyone hoping that was true, and the codex was a mistake, lol.

I like those plastic kits. Not as individual models, God no, the riders on the drones are horrid, but as conversion fodder they really look rather nice. I might just buy the drones and do something like that

The Khornemower/Phallocycle kit must be among GW's most bizarre ideas ever, which is saying quite a lot when they invented the Chaos Dwarf boarcentaur tenderizing wheelbarrow. The fanged egg looks weird, the skulls emerging from flesh remind me of the Surinam toad whose toadlets eat their way out of the skin on their mother's back (which is not something I care to be reminded of), I don't understand why the daemons are hanging on to rings on chains, I don't get the random piston near the saddle, I don't see why there is a throne when the herald can't reach his ring-and-chain while seated, the whole idea is just rubbish, I can't help but think no one of the design team had the courage to tell the boss what they really thought about it, ...but I like the herald and its horn icon but there ain't no way I'm buying the kit just for that.

The plaguebearers were obviously sculpted specifically for this kit. So why do their stomachs defy gravity?

The Slaaneshi herald has the usual bizarre two dimensional hair and looks like she has her petticoat stuck in her knickers. The teeth add nothing.

I wanted to want this release but I'm finding it very easy to resist. I confess I don't really understand why the quality of their designs seems to be declining when as far as I can see, their design team has never been larger.

As far as the heralds go, I think Avatars of War are both better-looking and cheaper:-

Aaaaand still no hint if Bloodcrushers are cavalery units...

man i would love to see this, so that i can stick my Jugger Lord in a Bloodcrusher unit...

The Domina of Torment is a great sculpt,

I wish you could actualy get casts to match

they are all pretty poor (I know I was unable to get hold of a decent one even after a fair bit of trying)

 LlamaAgility wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
That Khorne "chariot" thing doesn't really impress and the giant flies...seriously, come on, that's almost as bad as the thunderwolf cavalry.

What's wrong with the thunderwolf cavalry? I like the models, despite the perhaps ugly riders' faces...

Wolf guys riding giant wolves.

Plague daemons riding giant flies.

People used to joke about Blood Angels getting vampire bat mounts, but GW is so lacking in creativity that I could have seen them doing it with releases like this. The idea is silly and so are the models.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
I like those plastic kits. Not as individual models, God no, the riders on the drones are horrid, but as conversion fodder they really look rather nice. I might just buy the drones and do something like that

Speaking of creativity...

See, I would have accepted that. Really badass concept. GW needs that kind of talent working on their design team.

I've ordered my codex. The Tzeentch stuff looks excellent!

The flies are still dumb as hell.

Not a Daemon player but thats some cool new stuff
Enjoy your new goodies!

So in the new WD, it goes into a bit more detail of the Skull Cannon's fluff.

Apparently it eats up enemies in their path then fires their flaming skulls back into enemy ranks.

I'm not happy with this new Daemon release, but that fluff made me lol at least....

I dont get the whole daemonic farm machinery idea they are going for, first there was the slaanesh harvester, now the khorne plougher.
Im kinda expecting some form of Tzeentch seeding machine and Nurgle fertiliser to pop up lol.

 Nagashek wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Nagashek wrote:
So if the idea is that this was hurried to get rid of the last remnants of Allesio's touch on WHFB and WH40k, does that mean we have a new Skaven book to look forward to before any other FB armies get updated? Because I can't wait for that. Definitely give me more updated 7e books for 8e. WOOOOOOO!!!

You mean the Skaven book that was written by Jeremy Vetock?
I don't see how replacing it helps remove Allesio from the picture...

Mrr? Really? My Google Fu must be pretty damned weak then. Trying to find which book was written by whom is really rough unless you own them, seemingly. Then, it's still no guarantee as so many of them don't even list the bloody author properly. >.<

Alessio wrote the Skaven army book before the Vetock one, so that's where your idea might come from.

 Xeriapt wrote:
Im kinda expecting some form of Tzeentch seeding machine and Nurgle fertiliser to pop up lol.

Don't joke, the next big release might be a poop-flinging daemon engine for Nurgle. And maybe some daemonettes riding giant flying boobs with smaller boobs on them.

 Sidstyler wrote:
And maybe some daemonettes riding giant flying boobs with smaller boobs on them.

Not gonna happen with current kid-friendly GW direction of Slaanesh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, for me this is somehow disappointing release by GW (again). The flies are just silly, they could be a good conversion material for Blight Drones though. The Tzeentch Chariot is pretty nice though, I can see cannibalizing that kit for cool models. I mean, 2 screamers, 1 flamer, bunch of horrors and a herald in one kit, along with a very neat Disc? Not bad.

I'm really hoping the DaemonPrince stats on the website are wrong, I'll be deeply saddened if they are weaker than the CSM varient..

And I wonder how powerful the Greater Daemons will be... PKelly did say in WD they'd have stats a DP would dream for... though if DP's are weaker than that isn't saying much...

And if be 'Assault by turn two' he means that the KoS can move 12', or assault the turn it deepstrikes, then

I think GW need to fire their photographer.

After seeing the models close up, I can say that they are actually quite good. The flys in particular are great.

Shame I've started Guard otherwise I'd definitely collect Daemons.

Puscifer wrote:

Shame I've started Guard otherwise I'd definitely collect Daemons.

There´s always allies mate

As for the new daemon prince stats i laughed... T4 ? They might as well sneeze at him and hope for a wound.

Daemon princes are T4? That's got to be one of the worst demotions a model has ever had in terms of battlefield effectiveness.

 tarnish wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

Shame I've started Guard otherwise I'd definitely collect Daemons.

There´s always allies mate

As for the new daemon prince stats i laughed... T4 ? They might as well sneeze at him and hope for a wound.

Im expecting T4 to be a mistake on the website.

Either that or they will come out with a new prince kit that comes on a 40mm base which make the 60mm base ones obsolete lol.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Don't joke, the next big release might be a poop-flinging daemon engine for Nurgle. And maybe some daemonettes riding giant flying boobs with smaller boobs on them.

Paint the trunk flies in skin colours and the daemonettes fit just fine

Isnt there usually a lot of rule leaks by now?

 Xeriapt wrote:

 tarnish wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

Shame I've started Guard otherwise I'd definitely collect Daemons.

There´s always allies mate

As for the new daemon prince stats i laughed... T4 ? They might as well sneeze at him and hope for a wound.

Im expecting T4 to be a mistake on the website.

Either that or they will come out with a new prince kit that comes on a 40mm base which make the 60mm base ones obsolete lol.

Or they might be T4 base at a lower cost,

but able to pay for extra 'stuff' that boost them back to where they started so you can custom the role better

SlyasR wrote:
Isnt there usually a lot of rule leaks by now?

Yeah.

This release has been kept a lot tighter than normal. We got pictures a lot later, and have had nothing but snippets of rules so far.

 Sasori wrote:

SlyasR wrote:
Isnt there usually a lot of rule leaks by now?

Yeah.

This release has been kept a lot tighter than normal. We got pictures a lot later, and have had nothing but snippets of rules so far.

I'm surprised the errata isn't posted already. They've been coming out at record speed. (Not just a FAQ, but stuff they knew they goofed on)

Vetric wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

SlyasR wrote:
Isnt there usually a lot of rule leaks by now?

Yeah.

This release has been kept a lot tighter than normal. We got pictures a lot later, and have had nothing but snippets of rules so far.

I'm surprised the errata isn't posted already. They've been coming out at record speed. (Not just a FAQ, but stuff they knew they goofed on)

They're not going to post an errata before the book is released.

 Sasori wrote:

Vetric wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

SlyasR wrote:
Isnt there usually a lot of rule leaks by now?

Yeah.

This release has been kept a lot tighter than normal. We got pictures a lot later, and have had nothing but snippets of rules so far.

I'm surprised the errata isn't posted already. They've been coming out at record speed. (Not just a FAQ, but stuff they knew they goofed on)

They're not going to post an errata before the book is released.

I know But they got it down to what, 3 days for DA? Chaos Marines was quick, Death from the Skies had one almost immediatly. Tbh, I really hope the new codex is error free, but I'm not that optimistic given recent trends.

 Sasori wrote:

SlyasR wrote:
Isnt there usually a lot of rule leaks by now?

Yeah.

This release has been kept a lot tighter than normal. We got pictures a lot later, and have had nothing but snippets of rules so far.

Sooooo, does this mean GW is doing its job? Yes it does.

Didn't see this posted in this thread, so sorry if it's a repeat.

It's from BOLS, which I think was taken from Naftka?
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/02/faeits-40k-rumor-tarot-daemons-and.html

Chaos Daemons
Its no longer rumors that the Chaos Daemons are here, and will be available a week from now. In the meantime we are scraping through the latest White Dwarf for bits of pieces of how the new rules will play out when the codex hits. One of the best bits of information gleaned from the Battle report and pictures of March's White Dwarf are below.

These come from TastyTaste on Blood of Kittens
*Deamons of special rules are the same as the ones found on the Deamon Princes in Chaos Space Marine codex
*Burning Chariot of Tzeentch has Torrent AP3 Flamers along with second mode with high strength for vehicle killing.
*The Skull Cannon of Khorne is Large Blast S8 AP4 or 36" range
*Standard Deployment is back for Deamons along with normal Deep Strike
*Plague Drones have upgrades to get 3+ along with at least Strength 4
*Daemonic Rewards random chart three tiers (50 pts to roll)
*Herald Loci buffing powers for same god units (Icons of Deamons)
*Psychic Powers
*All Heralds (minus Khorne) can be psykers and you still can take two for one per HQ
*Warp Storm random (2d6) powers that effect Deamons every turn of the game.
*Tzeentch Gets Divination (HUGE)!
*Soul Grinder has Skyfire

Soul Grinders with Skyfire is going to push many armies to start fielding these models (still one of my favorites), so I look forward to this one being true. Otherwise we are looking at quite a few random charts, from daemonic rewards to Warp Storm powers. The last most drastic new change is moving Chaos Daemons to a more standard deployment, while still allowing normal deepstriking.

Other things we are expecting, but are still more rumor than fact, are that daemons are going to be losing eternal warrior and fearless. That Daemon Princes are moving to a Headquarters choice, and of course there is a wild variety of speculation.

Huge changes are underway and I am sure that next week will be very interesting as little bits of the rules start to emerge.

I find it interesting that they proxy forgeworld plague toads on 60mm bases for the 40mm beasts of nurgle. Not that they don't look a lot better. I'll probably end up doing the same thing as the plague toads are cheaper than the beasts..

 Swara wrote:
I find it interesting that they proxy forgeworld plague toads on 60mm bases for the 40mm beasts of nurgle. Not that they don't look a lot better. I'll probably end up doing the same thing as the plague toads are cheaper than the beasts..

I noticed that too.

I hope they release a new sculpt for the Beast, the current is just silly, it looks like some one took the original sculpt and threw in the microwave for a minute or two.

40k-noob wrote:

 Swara wrote:
I find it interesting that they proxy forgeworld plague toads on 60mm bases for the 40mm beasts of nurgle. Not that they don't look a lot better. I'll probably end up doing the same thing as the plague toads are cheaper than the beasts..

I noticed that too.

I hope they release a new sculpt for the Beast, the current is just silly, it looks like some one took the original sculpt and threw in the microwave for a minute or two.

I don't mind the old sculpt, but I don't want to pay 25 bucks a pop for them..

 Swara wrote:
I don't mind the old sculpt, but I don't want to pay 25 bucks a pop for them..

Strong arguement to go to a craft store, get some clay and make your own darn nurgle beasts.

They might not look nearly as good as the new sculpts, but at 25 bucks a pop......yea....
Ill find a way to make mine for a heck of a lot cheaper.

Shrug, I use spawn with fly heads and tentacle bitz to make my spawn. They definitely work.

yeah,

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Sold!

Panic...

 Panic wrote:
yeah,

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Sold!
..

Is this just the model without the rider or did he do something to the face? I don't see the hose-nose hanging out

It's photoshop or similar, he's used the saddle/wings/legs of the fly and 'invented' the blob of phlem body

(which he probably plans to convert using the fly abdomen as a base)

a nice bit of work

I'll take a rain check on this release. The Plague Drones look awkward and shaped wrong (although maybe someday I'll use some parts for conversions), the Khorne Chariot thing has got to be one of the worst models I've seen in ages, nothing else is really up there in terms of excitement. I'm gonna hope the next release is more akin to Dark Eldar or Space wolves than this or Chaos.

Took a look at the releases on my computer (finally! had to use the phone for a while) and all it did was reconfirm my earlier opinions:
-Herald of Khorne: Like it. With a lower cost than initially shown, and being able to get it 25% off, I'll get one

-Herald of Slaanesh: Body good, face terrible. The smashed in, rugby style nose doesn't do it for me. It ruins the whole face-looks like my male, 36 year old cousin's face on a daemonette's body. Hurl. Might buy it, if a head swap is easily done

Tzeentch Chariot: Awesome. Truly a work of art. I'll take 2

Herald of Nurgle: God, that's disgusting. I love it. I don't like the price tag for plastic. I'll convert my own, or get an AoW for 5 bucks less, before discount.

Plague flies: Pass

And the cream of the crop...saved for last...THE KHORNE THRONE!!!!! Verdict? My Chaos chariots are going to enjoy mixing it up with Bloodcrushers to create this baby on my own.

Not sure if anyone has posted this, forgive me if it has come up but I haven't seen it here. This is a screen grab of the video on the WD that shows some of the chart from the Daemonic gifts from I think fantasy?

What?! A chart with good results, where you can actually choose a default good option instead of a huge chance of losing the model for something totally different?
Must be fake.

 Swara wrote:
Not sure if anyone has posted this, forgive me if it has come up but I haven't seen it here. This is a screen grab of the video on the WD that shows some of the chart from the Daemonic gifts from I think fantasy?

Spoiler:

Ahhhh random tables - GW's answer to actually balancing points costs and item abilities.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

 Swara wrote:
Not sure if anyone has posted this, forgive me if it has come up but I haven't seen it here. This is a screen grab of the video on the WD that shows some of the chart from the Daemonic gifts from I think fantasy?

Spoiler:

Ahhhh random tables - GW's answer to actually balancing points costs and item abilities.

At least if you don't like your roll you can choose "0". But yeah.. still random tables.

I'm hoping I can take options in the Daemons codex without having to roll on a chart and hope I get what I'm wanting, because otherwise, that would mean I could never really control my army. Hopefully, Phil Kelly isn't taking Chaos too literally.