Edit: It also says this for every End Times book. Great job invalidating all of our purchases for the past few months, GW.
Does that really surprise you? GW did that all the time. Their fans are still buying the "new rules" no matter what - because it's made by GW, so it must be awesome.
It was quite obvious to me when the End Times series came that it would not last long. Warhammer Battle is dead - long live Age of Sigmar!
That's what they were saying from the very beginning.
So, to me, all that "9th edition" is just nonsense. It's a new game, otherwise why change the name? Better to accept the fact Warhammer Battle is buried deep in the earth - like Epic, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, Warmaster, War of the Ring....
Yep...... I think this guy is actually NOT talking entirely about the AoS box/set but in some instances the Rules AFTERWARDS...
....... consists of three books (what I have heard too)
- full fledged rule system; no skirmish game - meaning not restricted to low miniature count: as I understand it AoS WILL be skirmish level, the later rules bring about massed battle rules)
- there are unit cards for every (as far as I can see) old unit. I was told there would be separate rules to allow fielding of old units, however I thought these were included in the kits
Setting
game is set on world Regalia that is connected with other young realms through portals of the old ones. Young realms are realms that were populated by the old creators and were guided on similar historical paths. Exactly what I was told
...... Fast travel is possible through a number of ..... circles that allows mages to open portal from one to another ..... There were a long period of peace curated by the Exoatl (Old Ones) ...... Exactly what I was told
The Skaven arrived on their own on Regalia and are basically the same. Exactly what I was told
The Soul Mill is a huge machinery ...... to feed on the power of dead spirits..... Exactly what I was told
- Lizardmen are not gone. There is a race called Servants of the Exoatl - I was not aware of the "servants of" part but the name Exoatl was mentioned to me.
The way I understand it AoS is a standalone skirmish game, the 'rules' included with it as my pastry based friend has already said multiple times are minimal. I then understand that the Rulebooks that come later deal with expanding the base game of AoS in every way in which you would imagine a GW product to do, upscale the battles, further the fluff, detail the world(s) & protaganists, lots of artwork etc.
I think rather than anyone being "wrong" there are 2 separate products here that are being merged into 1 topic.
Of course, the parts I am hearing about could just be rumour reverb from the post on Dakka???
JohnHwangDD wrote: Thanks, KK. With all this 9E nonsense, I am so nostalgic, I am now thinking to eBay a 7E hardback rulebook for posterity.
I hear there's another company in Notingham making a grimdark fantasy battle game.
I even hear rumors they care about the quality of their games.
Too bad their miniatures look like gak sculpted by a half-blind one-armed halfwit.
I kind of agree, although their undead are, in my opinion, better than GW's. Besides, the good thing about them is they don't mind what you play the game with, and a human army made up of Perry stuff is not only cheaper than GW's, its also to my eyes much better looking. Same with others, I'd take the avatars of war stuff over the competing GW ones as well, and with kow2 there is a ruleset you can use, even in tournaments, to play it with.
Too bad their miniatures look like gak sculpted by a half-blind one-armed halfwit.
No one told you to use their minis.
why has no one a problem with alternative minis for warhammer, but declines other rules just because he don't like how their minis look like?
therefore, GW makes the best rules but worst miniatures, because most players (I know) are looking for alternative minis but keep playing their games
(if it would be the other way around, everyone would GW minis with alternative rules)
As far as I understand AoS is a skirmish level game, pretty light on rules, a stand alone entry level game. What comes after is different, full ruleset for bigger battles with all the fluff, artwork etc.
So there may be a different game after AoS after all? AoS 2.0: the big battles?
As far as I understand AoS is a skirmish level game, pretty light on rules, a stand alone entry level game. What comes after is different, full ruleset for bigger battles with all the fluff, artwork etc.
Something doesn't add up here.
If AoS is an entry level skirmish game and the full game is yet to come, then why did GW pull all of WHFB books of the shelves already?
As far as I understand AoS is a skirmish level game, pretty light on rules, a stand alone entry level game. What comes after is different, full ruleset for bigger battles with all the fluff, artwork etc.
Something doesn't add up here.
If AoS is an entry level skirmish game and the full game is yet to come, then why did GW pull all of WHFB books of the shelves already?
Because contrary to what their eyes and figures are physically telling them (and what common business practice advises) GW believe that pulling product without advertising a replacement keeps or actually increases their market share as the best miniatures manufacturer in the world.
There may well be two versions of AoS, a replacement for Warhammer could be one, but GW is a miniature making company, not a games company, obviously this means that leaving your customers in the lurch totally means they wont go over to competitors.
As far as I understand AoS is a skirmish level game, pretty light on rules, a stand alone entry level game. What comes after is different, full ruleset for bigger battles with all the fluff, artwork etc.
Something doesn't add up here.
If AoS is an entry level skirmish game and the full game is yet to come, then why did GW pull all of WHFB books of the shelves already?
I've actually been thinking about this a lot since I firmly believe that AoS will end up being a specialist game and not the replacement for Warhammer. For better or worse, Warhammer is an important brand for GW and they wouldn't just abandon it. Clearly, AoS is not a replacement for Warhammer. One of the few things that we retailers have been told is that AoS is not Warhammer 9. There are two ways to take that. One (that most seem to be assuming) is that it's not Warhammer 9 because it's radically different and they're not calling it Warhammer anymore because of this. The other way to take it is more literally. "This is not Warhammer 9" because that game isn't done yet and we're not ready to release it.
They won't abandon the Warhammer game brand. It's too important to their bottom line. This is a separate game.
So why did they pull all of the other books?
I think that they are actually doing a long transition time for the retailers. Clearly the new Warhammer game is going to be a break from the old. If they spring this on the retailers with 2 weeks notice (as they like to do) and then say "suck it! you can keep all of that useless product" they are going to lose a lot of retailers. I can tell you that I would use that as an opportunity to completely reevaluate their products value to my store. So doing this gives us a heads up. We can return the product and get some credit for their upcoming products, we can hold on to it and gamble that fans are going to want the books in the future. In any case, this gives us retailers more time to prepare for the new Warhammer.
If I were a betting man, I would say that we're going to get the details on Warhammer 9 (or at least a teaser) within two weeks of the release of AoS.
I have to say, I hate this gak. I hate it with a passion. Why GW thinks that this communication strategy is a good idea is completely beyond me.
As far as I understand AoS is a skirmish level game, pretty light on rules, a stand alone entry level game. What comes after is different, full ruleset for bigger battles with all the fluff, artwork etc.
Something doesn't add up here.
If AoS is an entry level skirmish game and the full game is yet to come, then why did GW pull all of WHFB books of the shelves already?
Presumably because whatever follows Age of Sigmar builds on the new rules established in the skirmish level game. From what we've heard AoS rules are not compatible with the current army books.
monders wrote: Talk of Warhammer being important to GW is of course true, but maybe that's why they're re-branding their stores from "Games Workshop" to "Warhammer".
That keeps their delicious IP rights, whilst AoS allows them a clean start in a fantasy setting chock full of mmmmm, yeaaahhh, more delicious IP!
What I really don't understand is- the CHS court case basically set the case for third party miniatures that can even specify compatibility with GW's products (it was always legal before but GW managed to sue anyone else into submission before the issue came up).
What the hell is the point of all of this IP wrangling? They do all this stuff, rename all of the things, and where does that get them? Is Kirby just so angry that he's having this done in a fit of rage while the designers keep saying "Sir, the other companies can still leech off of us!"
What the hell is the point of all of this IP rangling? They do all this stuff, rename all of the things, and where does that get them? Is Kirby just so angry that he's having this done in a fit of rage while the designers keep saying "Sir, the other companies can still leech off of us!"
Dunno, but I am still waiting for Taser International to send em a cease & desist for the AdMech using Taser (tm) branded electroshock weapons instead of martian-made 41st century stuff. Sweet tears they would be.
Accolade wrote: What I really don't understand is- the CHS court case basically set the case for third party miniatures that can even specify compatibility with GW's products (it was always legal before but GW managed to sue anyone else into submission before the issue came up).
What the hell is the point of all of this IP wrangling? They do all this stuff, rename all of the things, and where does that get them? Is Kirby just so angry that he's having this done in a fit of rage while the designers keep saying "Sir, the other companies can still leech off of us!"
If I recall correctly, the CHS case was mostly about the physical representation of certain IP concepts. The infamous SM shoulder pad would be a good example.
Words now. Words are easier to protect, assuming they're sufficiently unique.
Then again, if the new game is set on Regalia of all places, it's not exactly going to improve GW's IP standing
I honestly think this was a way for them to name all the traditional fantasy creatures as their own "unique" creations for IP purposes... i think the lawsuits about them trying to enforce generic concepts have all been failures (if not legally, at least in the eyes of the public: spacemarine/CH to name a few of the more noticable ones). it seems that anything that they couldnt defend as absolutely their creation, was rebranded so they could.
we dont have vampires in fantasy... we have nechrarchs...
we dont have orcs in fantasy... we have nigons...
we dont have lizardmen in fantasy, we have servents of xotltltl...
Kiwidru wrote: I honestly think this was a way for them to name all the traditional fantasy creatures as their own "unique" creations for IP purposes... i think the lawsuits about them trying to enforce generic concepts have all been failures (if not legally, at least in the eyes of the public: spacemarine/CH to name a few of the more noticable ones). it seems that anything that they couldnt defend as absolutely their creation, was rebranded so they could.
we dont have vampires in fantasy... we have nechrarchs...
we dont have orcs in fantasy... we have nigons...
we dont have lizardmen in fantasy, we have servents of xotltltl...
But then is the point just to pretend they have unique concepts? Because third party companies can just write "compatible with fantasy necrarchs army" and there's not a damn thing GW can do about it.
Really, the smartest thing GW did was eliminate any units that didn't have kits (although I'd rather they'd just made the kits rather than cutting the units...), that should have knocked out most of the issue. The re-naming stuff just feels like they're over-doing it or trying to compensate for looking like fething morons during the CHS court case.
The only thing I'd add to the Blood Bowl rumours, is there have been a number of suggestions that Blood Bowl was incoming, but was pulled from the schedule due to the Dread Fleet sales.
Which if accurate is a shocking decision by GW, as its the equivalent of stopping a Dark Eldar release because new Lizardmen kits did not sell that well.
Sadly its the kind of suggestion only some one in GWHQ could ever confirm, so very hard to collaborate, and prove on a rumour thread hence why I've only seen it come up on occasion and by a short list of folks.
That is urgently off topic mind, but just raising it in case folks where not aware.
Accolade wrote: What I really don't understand is- the CHS court case basically set the case for third party miniatures that can even specify compatibility with GW's products (it was always legal before but GW managed to sue anyone else into submission before the issue came up).
What the hell is the point of all of this IP wrangling? They do all this stuff, rename all of the things, and where does that get them? Is Kirby just so angry that he's having this done in a fit of rage while the designers keep saying "Sir, the other companies can still leech off of us!"
If I recall correctly, the CHS case was mostly about the physical representation of certain IP concepts. The infamous SM shoulder pad would be a good example.
Words now. Words are easier to protect, assuming they're sufficiently unique.
Then again, if the new game is set on Regalia of all places, it's not exactly going to improve GW's IP standing
Actually, it was pretty clear that bits companies can explicitly advertise their products about being compatible with GW kits. So if a kit is compatible with a GW trademarked item they can use that trademarked name in their description (i.e. "This product is compatible with Games Workshop (tm) Space Marines (tm) from the Tactical Marines (tm) kits.")
Accolade wrote: What I really don't understand is- the CHS court case basically set the case for third party miniatures that can even specify compatibility with GW's products (it was always legal before but GW managed to sue anyone else into submission before the issue came up).
What the hell is the point of all of this IP wrangling? They do all this stuff, rename all of the things, and where does that get them? Is Kirby just so angry that he's having this done in a fit of rage while the designers keep saying "Sir, the other companies can still leech off of us!"
If I recall correctly, the CHS case was mostly about the physical representation of certain IP concepts. The infamous SM shoulder pad would be a good example.
Words now. Words are easier to protect, assuming they're sufficiently unique.
Then again, if the new game is set on Regalia of all places, it's not exactly going to improve GW's IP standing
That's the thing though, the words themselves might be easier to protect, but that still doesn't prevent other companies from using them. You couldn't make a clone of a unit called "Waaghkin Assaulters" and just call them "Warhammer Waaghkin Assaulters", but you can make a slight visual variation and sell them as "Orkkin Maulers, suitable proxies for Waaghkin Assaulters in Games Workshop's Warhammer game", and you can still make heads, weapons etc and sell them as "Compatible with Games Workshop Waaghkin Assaulters miniatures" etc. GW seem to think slapping a Trademarkable name on something will kill the aftermarket and alternatives industry, but it won't, because you're still allowed to use the Trademarked names in ways that will see your products right up at the top of Google when someone searches "Waaghkin Assaulters".
What the CHS case firmly established is that there's absolutely nothing GW can do about such uses, so all the renaming and rebranding seems to be for the benefit of the not-really-paying-attention shareholders, to give them the impression that the company is acting to shore up their IPs.
we dont have vampires in fantasy... we have nechrarchs...
we dont have orcs in fantasy... we have nigons...
we dont have lizardmen in fantasy, we have servents of xotltltl...
To stay correct to the rumor that was floated a few pages back, Orcs are Waaaghkin. The Nigmos are some new "tall, slender priest caste."
IMHO, it is hard for me to believe this rumor is entirely true. Looking at the rules of it, it seems like a lot of things were pulled from different games. Salvage said a lot of it seemed to be pulled from Of Gods and Monsters (IIRC). Also, I don't see them moving away from the 1-10 numbering system to a 1-6, lowest number being better for skills system. A friend that plays Infinity says they use the lowest number is better system, but that is using a d20, not a d6, which leaves more room for rolls to be balanced.
It is hard to believe they depart that much from 40k and current WHFB stats system and going with something entirely different, especially if it is just lifting it from another game system.
The storyline seemed plausible enough from a GW standpoint (for better or for worse). However, it is hard for me to believe that if a company is trying to do what it can to protect it's IP by coming up with original names, designs and concepts, that they would double-down on making at least the initial release so focused on humans in a roman-to-medieval time period, which is probably the least original type of model you can create.
But, who knows. It will be interesting to see. The fact that some of the main rumormongers are quite silent is telling on this one. Surprised there haven't been any sort of leaks of book images with the release less than a month away now. The initial run has to be printed and at the distribution points and getting ready to be sent out to stores at this point, as it ships three weeks from today.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Actually, it was pretty clear that bits companies can explicitly advertise their products about being compatible with GW kits. So if a kit is compatible with a GW trademarked item they can use that trademarked name in their description (i.e. "This product is compatible with Games Workshop (tm) Space Marines (tm) from the Tactical Marines (tm) kits.")
Which is why I think they're going for the easy targets now. The new rumoured dwarf name, what was it? Davikarr? That's a good piece of IP. Good in the sense that it's easy to protect. It's not like GW having Dwarfs as an army was causing them to lose money. But having Davikarr as an army actually increases their IP portfolio value. Or will, if the game catches on.
Then again, Yodhrin might be right and it's nothing more than lackeys brown nosing upper management and shareholders. You can never tell with GW.
HobbyBox wrote: Looking at the rules of it, it seems like a lot of things were pulled from different games. Salvage said a lot of it seemed to be pulled from Of Gods and Monsters (IIRC).
Even more looks to be pulled from the LotR SBG, including the alternating activation and compacted statline. Which is both plausible, as LotR is GW's game, but suspicious given the wishlisting of 9E using LotR / WotR elements over the last months.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: The only thing I'd add to the Blood Bowl rumours, is there have been a number of suggestions that Blood Bowl was incoming, but was pulled from the schedule due to the Dread Fleet sales.
Which never was an explanation that worked. Hastings & co. started the Blood Bowl rumours in early/mid-2013, nearly two years after DreadFleet failed.
If they'd decided to scrap the game due to DreadFleet, they'd done it in 2011, maybe early 2012. Starting a rumour in 2013 and blaming DreadFleet when the rumour turns out wrong was just desperate obfuscation.
And TastyTaste, whatever else his qualities as a rumour-monger are (not so bad actually, checking the rumour-tracker), also said months before the predicted fall 2013 release for BloodBowl, that it never existed.
Which is why I think they're going for the easy targets now. The new rumoured dwarf name, what was it? Davikarr? That's a good piece of IP. Good in the sense that it's easy to protect. It's not like GW having Dwarfs as an army was causing them to lose money. But having Davikarr as an army actually increases their IP portfolio value. Or will, if the game catches on.
However, the CHS case showed that other companies can still use the term Davikarr in a description "i.e. Fully compatible with Games Workshop Davikarr", and their IP doesn't get much added to them unless they differ enough that people don't just regard them as dwarves with a strange name.
Just like the Astra Militarum didn't make any difference to the Imperial Guard.
What the hell is the point of all of this IP wrangling? They do all this stuff, rename all of the things, and where does that get them? Is Kirby just so angry that he's having this done in a fit of rage while the designers keep saying "Sir, the other companies can still leech off of us!"
I think all the wrangling is just a result of GW not knowing anything about copyright or trademarks. Didn't their head of IP admit he didn't know what he was doing during the CHS case?
Which is why I think they're going for the easy targets now. The new rumoured dwarf name, what was it? Davikarr? That's a good piece of IP. Good in the sense that it's easy to protect. It's not like GW having Dwarfs as an army was causing them to lose money. But having Davikarr as an army actually increases their IP portfolio value. Or will, if the game catches on.
However, the CHS case showed that other companies can still use the term Davikarr in a description "i.e. Fully compatible with Games Workshop Davikarr", and their IP doesn't get much added to them unless they differ enough that people don't just regard them as dwarves with a strange name.
Just like the Astra Militarum didn't make any difference to the Imperial Guard.
But the new names do allow GW the right to sue someone that comes up with a novel named "Spots the Davikarr", so they really are protecting their IP!
Here's the catch. A third party reference to dwarves made by GW is generic enough to not be worth much. Everyone and their mother have dwarves in their product lines. A reference to Davikarr on the other hand directs all attention towards GW's brand.
It also creates a mental gap between GW's range of products and every other stunty making company.
Think of Mad Cat. There's a bunch of similar designs scattered across multiple IPs. And yet the name creates an instant link to one particular machine and one particular brand.
the_Armyman wrote:
No one noticed that the turn sequence changed from YGIG to unit activation? That's huge, if true.
Yes. I thought it was a good thing.
chiefbigredman wrote:The rules the guy stated in that giant post seem very similar to the lord of the rings rules, which are a good set of rules (just not super deep in my opinion)
Well, it's not like Warhammer was super deep either. Move-shoot/swing-hit-wound-save-oops-got-yer-flank with an awful lot of special rules and random tables crusted over the surface like so many cheap rhinestones.
NWansbutter wrote:However, the two things I really don't like and hope are not true is the abandonment of WS, BS, S, T, &c. as well as an abandonment of morale/psychology. Those two things were the #1 draws for me to Warhammer back in 1999 when I first took the plunge and bought the 5th edition starter box. To take away those two things would really gut the game for me because that's what set Warhammer apart.
Yeah, 'cos the rumour block mentioned stats that are totally different to WS, BS, S, T, Sv, Ld, etc., like Melee, Range, Might, Armour, Resolve...
agnosto wrote:What doesn't ring true for me is that the rumored rules seem to be a mishmash of other systems. Morale and "regenerating at the end of the turn" sounds like Nerve or whatever in Mantic's KoW.
'Cos keeping the unit together and rallying them to avoid destruction is completely different to what Ld was. (Whoa. You ever get that deja vú feeling?)
Boss Salvage wrote:Etc, etc, etc.
Curiously enough, I've recently been looking into the Of Gods and Mortals fantasy skirmish system, as I heard good things and if Fantasy heads that way, why not shop around? Anyway, this big wall of rumors sounds a whole lot like OGAM 2.0 - which would actually be really cool for OGAM, which IMO is a little too simple for my tastes as it is. But Warhams? I doubt it. Though the poster being German certainly adds some cred
(If you're curious about OGAM, this site is a pretty good place to get started.)
- Salvage
I've been meaning to add that to my library, but TBH I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, waiting for Dragon Rampant.
From what's said in the rumour block, and about the recent arrival of both Sigmar and Chaos, it seems Regalia isn't so much a bubble universe as a region on another world of the Old Ones, as yet untouched by Chaos (but that 'our guys' have just discovered) with continents arranged how they like. (Earthlike) It sounds a bit strange, but it's a convenient shorthand for the continent that matches real-world North America, and it'd be equally inaccurate to call it Naggaroth, 'cos on this new world there was no Morathi or Malekith; no Sundering; no centuries-long civil war; and froms the hints, not even any native elves.
Bottle wrote:These new rumours have me a little anxious. I have an Empire army and if my Empire army can no longer use gunpowder weapons or state troopers I guess that leaves me with my huntsmen, wizards and Knights :/
I have a little pool of money and GW vouchers set aside for AoS, and I do want to get into it because I chose WHFB to be the game I play in GWs and I have had lots of fun doing just that with my Empire dudes.
Oh, if only there was any other place licensed to host games of Warhammer, and some kind of worldwide communication network to keep in touch with local 8th ed fans...
NAVARRO wrote:Triangle bases are out - it's pentagons.
Makes sense, I mean GW created pentagons as we know them.
Nope, octagons! Surely it's obvious, as we all know the eight pointed star of Chaos is one of GW's most recognisable and original creations.
*cough*moorcock*cough*
That's not strictly true JohnHwangDD: Sure, SOME of their models are a bit crappy but they have come out with some awesome stuff too. I think most of this stems from us being spoilt with GW stuff (barring finecast of course).
I live in hope that some day they'll take (or improve) their Deadzone/Dreadball quality and revisit their fantasy ranges with it. Until then they can keep their chopstick elves, shaved apes dressed up as battle sisters, and dragon ducks.
Sarouan wrote:
Does that really surprise you? GW did that all the time. Their fans are still buying the "new rules" no matter what - because it's made by GW, so it must be awesome.
It was quite obvious to me when the End Times series came that it would not last long. Warhammer Battle is dead - long live Age of Sigmar!
That's what they were saying from the very beginning.
Yarp!
So, to me, all that "9th edition" is just nonsense. It's a new game, otherwise why change the name? Better to accept the fact Warhammer Battle is buried deep in the earth - like Epic, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, Warmaster, War of the Ring....
There's a bit of an Epic revival going on in two clubs over here.
kodos wrote:
No one told you to use their minis.
why has no one a problem with alternative minis for warhammer, but declines other rules just because he don't like how their minis look like?
therefore, GW makes the best rules but worst miniatures, because most players (I know) are looking for alternative minis but keep playing their games
(if it would be the other way around, everyone would GW minis with alternative rules)
Ha! QFT!
HobbyBox wrote:Also, I don't see them moving away from the 1-10 numbering system to a 1-6, lowest number being better for skills system.
What was any stat over 6 used for anyway, apart from leadership, one or two very fast elves and things, and the occasional superstrong monster?
A friend that plays Infinity says they use the lowest number is better system, but that is using a d20, not a d6, which leaves more room for rolls to be balanced.
Mayhem uses 'lowest number is better' for combat and shooting damage, using a whole range of dice from d4 to d20. That's an opposed roll rather than looking up results on a table, which might be a little better for that kind of thing, I dunno. (Though what if you flipped WFB's to hit and to wound tables?) But then the rumour block mentioned opposed rolls for AoS anyway.
It is hard to believe they depart that much from 40k and current WHFB stats system and going with something entirely different, especially if it is just lifting it from another game system.
There's nothing new under the sun. Most games these days use stats and mechanics that are similar to something else, often because the author liked how it worked. Even Warhammer wasn't cut from whole cloth. Don't doubt a game that has similarities to another; rather try it out, identify the groups of games with the types of mechanics you like, and have some confidence in any new or discovered game that sounds similar to your preferences.
That would be hailarious. but im sure there are things to stop people from just trademarking everything.
No, you tradmark everything
To only thing to stop you is going to court and get the judge to decide that this is not legal
A company trademarked orange as background colour, or "hello" and everyone who printed it on T-shirts got a warning (until it was brought to court of course and the judge decided that hello can never be a legal trademark)
People can trademark things that other people are using, but ownership does not transfer. The companies that used the trademarks prior to the filing of the trademark can continue to use it indefinitely. Sometimes C&Ds still get sent, but the owner of a trademark does not get the rights to anything else by that name -nor the right to stop others from using it.
GameZone's Heroquest represents a weird misunderstanding of how this works.
There's nothing new under the sun. Most games these days use stats and mechanics that are similar to something else, often because the author liked how it worked. Even Warhammer wasn't cut from whole cloth. Don't doubt a game that has similarities to another; rather try it out, identify the groups of games with the types of mechanics you like, and have some confidence in any new or discovered game that sounds similar to your preferences.
Honestly, the systems that pick up steam tend to be ones that offer something new to players. New games survive based on the three main elements (fluff, mechanics and miniatures) and all three need to be both excellent and original. Players need to have a reason to play a new game instead of an older one (that they probably already have minis for).
So here's hoping Age of Sigmar offers original gameplay.
So if they haven't done it yet could we trademark them instead, just in case
If no paperwork has been filed yet, then it's not going to be. You want the trademarks to be live before the product goes live, so that a critical delay somewhere along the line doesn't screw you over.
Formosa wrote: Just like making up a whole new ruleset ...
Seriously dudes, it reads a lot like 'Of Gods and Mortals' combined with LotR and a little Fantasy. If he's making it up, it's not totally from scratch. And if this is how 9E is going to roll, then GeeDub isn't pulling these completely out of nowhere either - thankfully by all accounts OGAM is good fun?
HobbyBox wrote:Also, I don't see them moving away from the 1-10 numbering system to a 1-6, lowest number being better for skills system.
What was any stat over 6 used for anyway, apart from leadership, one or two very fast elves and things, and the occasional superstrong monster?
A friend that plays Infinity says they use the lowest number is better system, but that is using a d20, not a d6, which leaves more room for rolls to be balanced.
Mayhem uses 'lowest number is better' for combat and shooting damage, using a whole range of dice from d4 to d20. That's an opposed roll rather than looking up results on a table, which might be a little better for that kind of thing, I dunno. (Though what if you flipped WFB's to hit and to wound tables?) But then the rumour block mentioned opposed rolls for AoS anyway.
It is hard to believe they depart that much from 40k and current WHFB stats system and going with something entirely different, especially if it is just lifting it from another game system.
There's nothing new under the sun. Most games these days use stats and mechanics that are similar to something else, often because the author liked how it worked. Even Warhammer wasn't cut from whole cloth. Don't doubt a game that has similarities to another; rather try it out, identify the groups of games with the types of mechanics you like, and have some confidence in any new or discovered game that sounds similar to your preferences.
I agree in the current system the way they handled it, values over 6 don't make a ton of difference. And don't get me wrong, I know there are tons of different ways to handle the stats and the mechanics to resolve them and many of those IMO are better than GWs system.
Looking at GW, to me they like to think of their customers as GW Hobbyists that buy and paint and care about their models and play games as a secondary. I believe a lot of the reason they have two main systems (WHFB and 40k/30k) is that they want to be in those two main markets for tabletop gaming and if a player plays 40k and is looking to play a fantasy game, they want them to play the GW fantasy game and vice versa. In creating this new game, some of the wording that has gone out to stores is that this new game will attract new players to the line. Those will be people who are completely new to tabletop miniature gaming as well as people just new to a fantasy style game who maybe play 40k already.
If that is their main focus, I would think they would keep the basics of the systems similar. And if they are moving things to round bases and having formations be the same as 40k, it would make sense to me that statlines would stay in line with what current WHFB or 40k use now, so that people can find it easy to switch between the two games. That is the only reason why I don't see them going away from it. Doesn't have anything to do with thinking it is a superior system to everything (though I'm sure they believe it is ).
I guess, the rumors to me sounded like it was someone puzzling together bits and pieces from a bunch of systems and then welded it all together to form some mish-mash of a game (formations of 40k, unit cards like Warmahordes, and so on), which isn't necessarily how I think it would all come together as the games designers build it.
I know I could easily be wrong and if this rumor block is 100% true, I'm not going to completely write them off until I can read through the books myself and give the system a few games to see how it works overall. If it is a more fun game that takes a bit less time to play and is less cumbersome, I'm all for it - especially if it is a bit easier for newer players to buy into and start playing.
And that's what I was saying. Especially with veteran gamers, if you want to get them into a new game, you need to offer them something new.
GW definitely did offer something new back in the day, and over time, the main feature that GW offers is the ability to go into any game store and pick up a game.
Now, I don't know about where you guys live, but around here, it is easy to get in pick up games of 40k or Warmachine/Hordes, but the Warhammer Fantasy crowd isn't so much thriving.
I expect that is true everywhere, and that's why GW is changing their game so drastically.
Type Nigmo into Urban Dictionary and you'll see what the problem is.
Hint: There's a reason I'm not linking it.
And that pretty well discredits the whole thing as a fake.
Not sure why it's still so hotly debated.
1. Unknown, new poster
2. Odd racist undertones of Sigmar Missionaries fighting Chaos-Primitives in Africa
3. Racist slang terms as IP-names
4. Sad Panda says its bull
5. Darnok says its bull
I've never seen a rumour so thoroughly discredited. This one makes Larry Vela look like an investigative journalist.
Type Nigmo into Urban Dictionary and you'll see what the problem is.
Hint: There's a reason I'm not linking it.
And that pretty well discredits the whole thing as a fake.
Not necesarily. Its not a term that is used in the uk as far as I know, or if it is used in the uk anywhere, its certainly not common. Since GW is a uk company they may well call something a name that means something different in another country without even knowing.
Type Nigmo into Urban Dictionary and you'll see what the problem is.
Hint: There's a reason I'm not linking it.
And that pretty well discredits the whole thing as a fake.
Not necesarily. Its not a term that is used in the uk as far as I know, or if it is used in the uk anywhere, its certainly not common. Since GW is a uk company they may well call something a name that means something different in another country without even knowing.
Still going to be endless jabs and jokes about it. if its true.
It is possible that someone in GW told them both the same thing. So they could both be unwitting pawns in GWs trolling game. I may have just revealed too much and must leave before GWinquisitorial stormtroopers smash in my door and/or window
Formosa wrote: Just like making up a whole new ruleset ...
Seriously dudes, it reads a lot like 'Of Gods and Mortals' combined with LotR and a little Fantasy. If he's making it up, it's not totally from scratch. And if this is how 9E is going to roll, then GeeDub isn't pulling these completely out of nowhere either - thankfully by all accounts OGAM is good fun?
- Salvage
If I want to play OGAM I'll go play OGAM.
Qft!!
It also sounds like a really bad mash of LotR and world of borecrap, Like I said before, the fluff is what keeps me in the game, rules are a distant 3rd, so if the fluff is naff, the models will need to be amazing to make up for that, and if they carry on down the wow cartoony crap they have been churning out since the chaos deamon book came out years ago (deamon prince, bloodletters... All of it really) then that's another nail in the coffin, and last but not least GW's track record of rules writing is bad enough for me to be very worried about them writing a new ruleset.
Apprehensive is what I am, I was excited by end times and the prospect of 9th being a polished version of 8th, this doesn't sound good.
Type Nigmo into Urban Dictionary and you'll see what the problem is.
Hint: There's a reason I'm not linking it.
And that pretty well discredits the whole thing as a fake.
Not sure why it's still so hotly debated.
1. Unknown, new poster
2. Odd racist undertones of Sigmar Missionaries fighting Chaos-Primitives in Africa
3. Racist slang terms as IP-names
4. Sad Panda says its bull
5. Darnok says its bull
I've never seen a rumour so thoroughly discredited. This one makes Larry Vela look like an investigative journalist.
R.I.P.
We've already been warned off discussing this "nigmo" crap any further, can you give it a rest? Urban Dictionary is not a reliable source.
So if they haven't done it yet could we trademark them instead, just in case
If no paperwork has been filed yet, then it's not going to be. You want the trademarks to be live before the product goes live, so that a critical delay somewhere along the line doesn't screw you over.
Depends on the country/system.
The US has a common law system, if you can show you've been using a mark and claiming it with a (TM) that's enough. You can pursue registration on the Federal or State level and get the (R) but it's more exensive and takes longer and you run the risk of being challenged and losing.
I think in the UK you have to register to get any protection.
Sad Panda wrote: Those rumours sound cool. Perhaps better than the real thing.
But the good guys of the starter really are Fantasy Space Marines for all intents. And nothing else. Even a bit broader than Space Marines, even a bit chubby looking. Models might make reasonable Adeptus Custodes conversions even. And they are all male of course.
Sad Panda denies? So basically confirmed that huge wall of text is bs. Too bad, it sounded cool...
Not necessarily.
SinaLeibniz wrote: Age of Sigmar box content: Extrapolated from the pictures, they are the only new models.
Maybe he/she just made a mistake extrapolating from pics. Doesn't invalidate all the rest, though.
SinaLeibniz's post was extremely long, and Sad Panda refuted one small part of it, a part which SinaLeibniz specifically said he was extrapolating from pics. Hastings has confirmed some parts, too. To throw it all out seems off to me, but like most rumors it's unlikely to be 100% accurate, either.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: The only thing I'd add to the Blood Bowl rumours, is there have been a number of suggestions that Blood Bowl was incoming, but was pulled from the schedule due to the Dread Fleet sales.
Which never was an explanation that worked. Hastings & co. started the Blood Bowl rumours in early/mid-2013, nearly two years after DreadFleet failed.
If they'd decided to scrap the game due to DreadFleet, they'd done it in 2011, maybe early 2012. Starting a rumour in 2013 and blaming DreadFleet when the rumour turns out wrong was just desperate obfuscation.
And TastyTaste, whatever else his qualities as a rumour-monger are (not so bad actually, checking the rumour-tracker), also said months before the predicted fall 2013 release for BloodBowl, that it never existed.
edit - I have a feeling the rumours pre-dated that as well in a more 'I think its coming' from minor rumour folks.. but Harry/Hastings first brought them up themselves in 2011 around the time of Dreadfleets release.
Fantasy Spacemarines = Brotherhood of Zealous Knights
It's not like they are going to have bolguns and powerarmor. Although truth be told, I would play 40K Space Marines in the Fantasy setting if I could get away with it.
adamsouza wrote: Fantasy Spacemarines = Brotherhood of Zealous Knights
It's not like they are going to have bolguns and powerarmor. Although truth be told, I would play 40K Space Marines in the Fantasy setting if I could get away with it.
Of course not!
But they will have repeating crossbows called Bolt Throwers.
adamsouza wrote: Fantasy Spacemarines = Brotherhood of Zealous Knights
It's not like they are going to have bolguns and powerarmor. Although truth be told, I would play 40K Space Marines in the Fantasy setting if I could get away with it.
Of course not!
But they will have repeating crossbows called Bolt Throwers.
And enchanted plate armor with many powers.
TOTALLY DIFFERENT from Space Marines.
Ugh, God. Because what WHFB needed was to just be a slightly more medieval version of 40k.
adamsouza wrote: Fantasy Spacemarines = Brotherhood of Zealous Knights
It's not like they are going to have bolguns and powerarmor. Although truth be told, I would play 40K Space Marines in the Fantasy setting if I could get away with it.
Of course not!
But they will have repeating crossbows called Bolt Throwers.
And enchanted plate armor with many powers.
TOTALLY DIFFERENT from Space Marines.
And I am quite sure they will be unable to conceptualize fright!
Accolade wrote: Ugh, God. Because what WHFB needed was to just be a slightly more medieval version of 40k.
I anxiously await FW reintroducing their fantasy line with endless iterations of the same basic knight but with different plumes and pauldrons to indicate his specific order... and, of course, the obligatory cataphractii full plate Ogres and contemptor armored Giants each customized sequentially for every order as well.
adamsouza wrote: Fantasy Spacemarines = Brotherhood of Zealous Knights
It's not like they are going to have bolguns and powerarmor. Although truth be told, I would play 40K Space Marines in the Fantasy setting if I could get away with it.
Of course not!
But they will have repeating crossbows called Bolt Throwers.
And enchanted plate armor with many powers.
TOTALLY DIFFERENT from Space Marines.
And I am quite sure they will be unable to conceptualize fright!
Valete,
JohnS
CONFIRMED FALSE RUMOR-They'll have blades on the end of flails called "Sword Chains"
And the greatest Order are the seagoing knights whose azure armor has given them the name Aquamarines.
Accolade wrote: Ugh, God. Because what WHFB needed was to just be a slightly more medieval version of 40k.
I anxiously await FW reintroducing their fantasy line with endless iterations of the same basic knight but with different plumes and pauldrons to indicate his specific order... and, of course, the obligatory cataphractii full plate Ogres and contemptor armored Giants each customized sequentially for every order as well.
Spoiler:
We'd be lucky to even get that from ForgeWorld, they are really pre-occupied with the Horus Heresy stuff. No time or space for work on anything else, which is a shame. At first I was really excited about all the Horus Heresy stuff...but now its getting really, really old. I miss their amazing sculpts, like the Great Unclean One, Khorne Daemon Prince...way better than slight variants of the same armor pattern, or another darn space marine vehicle variant every few months. But apparently people are eating it up, as they show no sign of stopping.
adamsouza wrote: Fantasy Spacemarines = Brotherhood of Zealous Knights
It's not like they are going to have bolguns and powerarmor. Although truth be told, I would play 40K Space Marines in the Fantasy setting if I could get away with it.
Of course not!
But they will have repeating crossbows called Bolt Throwers.
And enchanted plate armor with many powers.
TOTALLY DIFFERENT from Space Marines.
And I am quite sure they will be unable to conceptualize fright!
Valete,
JohnS
CONFIRMED FALSE RUMOR-They'll have blades on the end of flails called "Sword Chains"
And the greatest Order are the seagoing knights whose azure armor has given them the name Aquamarines.
I heard that if the Aquamarines take a lord, a hero, and two core choices, they get all their horses and chariots for free.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I am well aware of that word, and its history. I refuse to use it here out of respect for others. I don't see such refusal as childish, but rather mature.
Using it in a discussion about the word and saying it to someones face, are acts separated by almost as wide a distance as the act of murder and the transcription of one.
I realize this is an area where europeans and americans are probably gonna have some problems seeing eye to eye, it's just such a different attitude towards these things...
It's not a rumour, my spy has confirmed that space marine style knights will feature in AOS.
The story is thus: alarmed by the rise of chaos, and wanting to re-unite the world, Sigmar uses his own genetic material to create knightly orders. He will use these knights to launch his greater crusade, and conquer this new world. There are 20 knightly orders. Here are their names and colour schemes:
Imperial hands. Yellow/gold
Dark Bangels. Dark green and white
Aquamarines are confirmed.
Apple white scars. White with red trim
Iron fingers. Black/silver
Star wolves. Colours unknown
Starrier wolves. Light blue. Will have ginger beards.
Crow guard. Black
Beta legion: similar to aquamarines.
land eaters. Red
Sigmar's children. Purple.
Life guard. Green
Iron fighters: silver
Thousand daughters. Female focused group. This is GW's plan to increase its demographic appeal.
Gekko: a knightly cult that worships lizards. green and fire colours.
Blood bagels: red. Tasked with defending the empire's baked goods.
Dawn lords: dark blue. They get up early and attack people when they're still sleeping.
Dictionary bearers: red.
As always, If I get any more info, you'll hear it here first. You'll note that 2 names are missing. My spy is working on getting these.
It's not a rumour, my spy has confirmed that space marine style knights will feature in AOS.
The story is thus: alarmed by the rise of chaos, and wanting to re-unite the world, Sigmar uses his own genetic material to create knightly orders. He will use these knights to launch his greater crusade, and conquer this new world. There are 20 knightly orders. Here are their names and colour schemes:
Imperial hands. Yellow/gold
Dark Bangels. Dark green and white
Aquamarines are confirmed.
Apple white scars. White with red trim
Iron fingers. Black/silver
Star wolves. Colours unknown
Starrier wolves. Light blue. Will have ginger beards.
Crow guard. Black
Beta legion: similar to aquamarines.
land eaters. Red
Sigmar's children. Purple.
Life guard. Green
Iron fighters: silver
Thousand daughters. Female focused group. This is GW's plan to increase its demographic appeal.
Gekko: a knightly cult that worships lizards. green and fire colours.
Blood bagels: red. Tasked with defending the empire's baked goods.
Dawn lords: dark blue. They get up early and attack people when they're still sleeping.
Dictionary bearers: red.
As always, If I get any more info, you'll hear it here first. You'll note that 2 names are missing. My spy is working on getting these. [spoiler]
If they told us what they were releasing, like what 99.9% of normal companies do, people like myself wouldn't be reduced to lame humour to pass the time.
Fallout 4 is out in the Autumn. How do I know that? Because Bethesda told the world not that long ago. Do you think they waited until two weeks before their release date?
We could be planning armies, building terrain, budgeting our money for purchases, discussing tactics etc etc if we knew what we were getting with AOS
FLGS could be busy organising launch parties or taking customer orders.
Or, like me, you could be placing orders to buy miniatures from other companies, because they were upfront about their release schedule.
I there's a general sense of meh towards AOS, then GW only have themselves to blame, something their defenders fail to acknowledge.
Lets guess that Warhammer: AoS is a new stand alone game with rules to play skirmish or small games. Which seems to be a common view.
No stopping us from playing bigger games with the same rules.
At least until GW sells us an expansion on the rules for bigger and apocalyptic size armies. Then we will all buy the new stuff and praise GW for their fine game product development.
Now lets look at the facts. Age of Sigmar is coming out July 11th. That's it. Have a nice day.
If they told us what they were releasing, like what 99.9% of normal companies do, people like myself wouldn't be reduced to lame humour to pass the time.
Fallout 4 is out in the Autumn. How do I know that? Because Bethesda told the world not that long ago. Do you think they waited until two weeks before their release date?
We could be planning armies, building terrain, budgeting our money for purchases, discussing tactics etc etc if we knew what we were getting with AOS
FLGS could be busy organising launch parties or taking customer orders.
Or, like me, you could be placing orders to buy miniatures from other companies, because they were upfront about their release schedule.
I there's a general sense of meh towards AOS, then GW only have themselves to blame, something their defenders fail to acknowledge.
The other thing is that GW have also just done this 6-8 month run of 5 £40 books complete with about 6-8 £50-£60 kits, happily encouraging people to build up large armies that combine multiple factions...and all the rumours are pointing to a much, much smaller scale with certain armies getting shoved to mandatory references much like certain things were in 2nd ed. 40k (Hiya Squats!). That really, really isn't a healthy approach for a company to take - people have put frightening amounts of money into armies and all signs point to them only really being able to use a fraction of it in their new 'rules', having to mass rebase (or risk having a fugly mish mash appearance should they add new units or characters) or having to sit there stagnant while we wait for yet another 'surprise' release that'll get leaked out a week or so in advance.
That and the fact a lot of people still remember when they would tease new releases 3 months ahead of time so people could be prepared. It generated a sales rush in those 3 months - hey, Marines coming out in 3 months - everyone starts to buy Marines and the few 'new' units that come out also sell as people couldn't buy those in advance.
Personally, I sold all my Fantasy off. All of it. Admittedly a lot of that had to do with my work cocking up and paying me £0 for the month of May (have to pay rent somehow) but also because I just wasn't happy with the direction it was going. The fact they pushed the End Times rules into the core rules made it worse. Oh, running mono-Dark Elves? Sucks to be you. Oh, Lizardmen? Cute.
AoS has not really gotten a positive response anywhere. The fact the rumours are pointing toward a 'skirmish' system which is more 'interactive' with round bases?
Gods damnit GW. If I wanted to play Warmachine I'd play Warmachine.
WFB was my go to for massed units and now you're killing that so...uh....Mantic it is then.
Heck, you murdered Specialist Games long ago - hurrah internet keeping them alive.
And considering the fact that Fantasy was one of their big two...seriously. We need more than a fancy graphic three weeks early to get us interested. You're potentially changing the basic fundamentals of one of your big two systems and all we definately know so far is its name.
If they told us what they were releasing, like what 99.9% of normal companies do, people like myself wouldn't be reduced to lame humour to pass the time.
Fallout 4 is out in the Autumn. How do I know that? Because Bethesda told the world not that long ago. Do you think they waited until two weeks before their release date?
We could be planning armies, building terrain, budgeting our money for purchases, discussing tactics etc etc if we knew what we were getting with AOS
FLGS could be busy organising launch parties or taking customer orders.
Or, like me, you could be placing orders to buy miniatures from other companies, because they were upfront about their release schedule.
I there's a general sense of meh towards AOS, then GW only have themselves to blame, something their defenders fail to acknowledge.
The other thing is that GW have also just done this 6-8 month run of 5 £40 books complete with about 6-8 £50-£60 kits, happily encouraging people to build up large armies that combine multiple factions...and all the rumours are pointing to a much, much smaller scale with certain armies getting shoved to mandatory references much like certain things were in 2nd ed. 40k (Hiya Squats!). That really, really isn't a healthy approach for a company to take - people have put frightening amounts of money into armies and all signs point to them only really being able to use a fraction of it in their new 'rules', having to mass rebase (or risk having a fugly mish mash appearance should they add new units or characters) or having to sit there stagnant while we wait for yet another 'surprise' release that'll get leaked out a week or so in advance.
That and the fact a lot of people still remember when they would tease new releases 3 months ahead of time so people could be prepared. It generated a sales rush in those 3 months - hey, Marines coming out in 3 months - everyone starts to buy Marines and the few 'new' units that come out also sell as people couldn't buy those in advance.
Personally, I sold all my Fantasy off. All of it. Admittedly a lot of that had to do with my work cocking up and paying me £0 for the month of May (have to pay rent somehow) but also because I just wasn't happy with the direction it was going. The fact they pushed the End Times rules into the core rules made it worse. Oh, running mono-Dark Elves? Sucks to be you. Oh, Lizardmen? Cute.
AoS has not really gotten a positive response anywhere. The fact the rumours are pointing toward a 'skirmish' system which is more 'interactive' with round bases?
Gods damnit GW. If I wanted to play Warmachine I'd play Warmachine.
WFB was my go to for massed units and now you're killing that so...uh....Mantic it is then.
Heck, you murdered Specialist Games long ago - hurrah internet keeping them alive.
And considering the fact that Fantasy was one of their big two...seriously. We need more than a fancy graphic three weeks early to get us interested. You're potentially changing the basic fundamentals of one of your big two systems and all we definately know so far is its name.
Really?
Couldn't agree more. The short-sightedness of GW never fails to amaze me. I mentioned terrain earlier, and normal retailers would do things like buy 2, get one free on terrain kits, if they had a big launch, or 10% off paints and brushes on launch night etc etc
I remember call of duty launch nights at my local video games store, and they had one night only reductions on control pads, cables, accessories etc etc because they were a normal retailer trying to sell as much stuff as possible and get as mnay customers in the door, as possible.
A question to any FLGS owners on this site: are you planning a launch day/party when AOS comes out, or is it being met with a shrug of the shoulders?
Accolade wrote: Ugh, God. Because what WHFB needed was to just be a slightly more medieval version of 40k.
I anxiously await FW reintroducing their fantasy line with endless iterations of the same basic knight but with different plumes and pauldrons to indicate his specific order... and, of course, the obligatory cataphractii full plate Ogres and contemptor armored Giants each customized sequentially for every order as well.
Spoiler:
We'd be lucky to even get that from ForgeWorld, they are really pre-occupied with the Horus Heresy stuff. No time or space for work on anything else, which is a shame. At first I was really excited about all the Horus Heresy stuff...but now its getting really, really old. I miss their amazing sculpts, like the Great Unclean One, Khorne Daemon Prince...way better than slight variants of the same armor pattern, or another darn space marine vehicle variant every few months. But apparently people are eating it up, as they show no sign of stopping.
In the grim darkness of the future there are only humans, fighting humans. As someone who hasn't bothered to read the HH books, I can only assume that the other factions/races didn't exist in the galaxy during that period? For an ancient race, it's odd that the Eldar weren't doing anything at that time...no Ork or Dark Eldar raids? Tyranids hadn't entered the galaxy yet?
adamsouza wrote: GW actually discourages sales of any sort on their products from retailers. They view it as competition with their web store.
Again, complete madness. It's part of the salesman's trade to have a discount, or an offer, up his sleeve. Retailers are the same.
A few years back, I went on a spending spree at a FLGS, bought tons of stuff. I made the mistake of not buying dice or paint brushes, but because of the large amount of money I was handing over, I got free dice and paint brushes from the store owner.
GW used to give stuff away years ago when a new stores opened. People would come from miles around to take advantage of the buy 2, get a 3rd free, offers.
Now They're saying that if I spent £300, they wouldn't throw in a free bag of dice, or something. I bet some retailers would do that.
I didn't drive, so I caught a bus that took over three hours to do a route which can be driven by car in a little over an hour, and I spent £75 on an Epic Tyranids army. Not, in the grand scheme of things a great deal of cash, but this was approx 20 years ago, and I was a student earning about £15 a week from my weekend job (and no other income.) Then I hung around all day because the bus I caught only had one return service.
Last week, I had to drive to Exeter for a hospital appointment. I drove within yards of where the GW is now (it has moved to a less prominent position since their original location has been redeveloped as one of the main shopping areas in the city.) I also met a friend for coffee within easy walking distance of the shop after my appointment.
I could do with an extra Chaos Rhino for my current project, and with that being the only item I'm currently in the market for, online discounters don't make a lot of sense, as postage normally erases all the discount plus interest, and despite hardly being wealthy right now, I can afford full price Rhinos.
Still. I couldn't be arsed to go into the shop to pick one up.
It's this sort of apathy, alongside the baffling decison to refuse to act like a retailer, the GW really need to tackle (alongside a laundry list of other things not really relevant to the thread.)
They can reinvent, rerelease and update all of the things, but until more customers are getting excited for them, and are looking to engage with their stores as destinations, their bigger problems will persist.
I wantAoS to be good, and a success, but even if it is, it'll still be lipstick on a pig.
I wantAoS to be good, and a success, but even if it is, it'll still be lipstick on a pig.
Yes, they really ARE good at dispelling their own magic, aren't they?
Almost everybody has fond memories of GW, and most of them turned into disillusioned grumblings.
odinsgrandson wrote:Honestly, the systems that pick up steam tend to be ones that offer something new to players. New games survive based on the three main elements (fluff, mechanics and miniatures) and all three need to be both excellent and original. Players need to have a reason to play a new game instead of an older one (that they probably already have minis for).
Only from a certain point of view. You've touched on two things that I've ranted about recently, involving the 'package' type game with all three of those elements in one, that's encouraged by GW and clung to by GW - and some ex-GW - gamers. The first is that I think these games gather steam not (just) because they have that package, but because the package is somewhat familiar and comforting to the considerable numbers of gamers leaving GW. Big flashy models with their own particular big flashy stories and big flashy rules, all in one stop. The problem is that, while the gameplay might be improved on GW's (how could it not?), most of these games still rely on those special rules to sell minis, and it leads to another similarity to GW games: power creep, listbuilding, and imbalance.
The other thing is that when the package is encouraged and clung to for long enough, or without reference to any other way, the attitude becomes like yours: not just gravitated towards because GW gamers are used to it, but viewed as how games must be. This model must have it's own special, unique, defining (imbalancing, bogging down...) rules and considerable backstory taking up pages of the rulebook. What's the point, otherwise? But this is a nonsense. Some gamers view fluff, rules and minis as indivisible, but that's only a state of mind encouraged by GW, among others. It's not true, and only limits your choices.
Historical gamers alone are a sizeable chunk of the wargaming demographic that prove that. You've got a couple of package games in there like FoW or Saga; but for the most part historical gamers are free to decide on the period (the fluff, so to speak) that draws them the most, then decide on which company's minis to use, then choose the rules to play the period. And they know it. Fantasy and sci-fi gamers can do the same, if they're not so conditioned to view the GW situation as the norm. You talk about veteran gamers: these should be the ones exploring different rules, minis and settings for themselves, even coming up with their own background and settings, at least; rather than only hanging onto apron strings, and certainly not just waiting for just the right gift-wrapped package to be dumped in their lap, and not bothering to shift themselves if it never comes. I know people who game LotR without reference to GW's minis or rules. Heck, I know a bunch who game Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire, and that doesn't even have an official wargame to ignore! (Dark Sword have a line of official ASoIaF minis, but they're more collectors' and painters' display items than gaming minis)
In fact, among the recent package-type fantasy and sci-fi games, I have to point out KoW as bucking the trend. It's not my first choice for a fantasy battle game (somewhere about second, tho) but I just have to admire the way it was built up from the start as alternative rules and minis, with choice at the core, and the way it's fans carry on that ethos. Earlier I agreed with whoever-it-was (sorry guy) who called out the tired old complaints of a game that doesn't have the best minis, when it's highly compatible with Warhammer and other minis. KoW players get the idea of division of minis and rules, much more than GW players, and dare I say players of PP, Malifaux, Infinity and such.
As for unique mechanics, I stand by what I said: there's nothing new under the sun. I've heard a lot of Malifaux's exciting and unique playing card mechanic, but from long experience with it I can say that it's just another randomisation method, offering little more than 2D6 with a handful of rerolls. You'll find Warmachine's focus and combos in slightly different forms and under different names in other games. You can give orders and roll D20s in other games besides Infinity, too.
You might look down on GW, and praise the half-dozen GWesque games as being better and balanced and broader; but it's like stopping your visits to MacDonalds and claiming you now have more open, adventurous, even eclectic dining choices, when the only other places you go to are Burger King, KFC, Pizza Hut...
Kirasu wrote:They offer new players the ability to pay the most money for a game out of all the competition tho.
Vulcan wrote:If I want to play OGAM I'll go play OGAM.
If Boss Salvage is right, you might yet do that, in a GW store.
odinsgrandson wrote:
And that's what I was saying. Especially with veteran gamers, if you want to get them into a new game, you need to offer them something new.
And that's what I was saying. You won't find too much that's 'new', even if being insulated in a GW store means you haven't heard of it. How about something 'good' or 'balanced' instead?
GW definitely did offer something new back in the day, and over time, the main feature that GW offers is the ability to go into any game store and pick up a game.
*Aherherm* How about offering the main feature of being 'good' or 'balanced' instead? And on the gamer's end, maybe take the unprecedented step of introducing yourself to the pickups, and 'pickup' a phone or tap an email or two to organise non-GW-sanctioned games of anything (even 40K or WFB); rather than being concerned about and shackled to the idea of getting a game of a subpar rule set anywhere outside your reasonable travel radius?
People here make several good arguments about how the GW shop is outmoded in several ways, compared to a decade or two ago. I'd like to add it's role as a place to meet and organise with gamers who want to play something non-current, non-GW, or non-bad, in the frickin' internet age.
Thargrim wrote:
We'd be lucky to even get that from ForgeWorld, they are really pre-occupied with the Horus Heresy stuff. No time or space for work on anything else, which is a shame.
Psst.
I think it was a joke.
angelofvengeance wrote:Ugh. Can we lock this thread yet? Just seems to be wandering off topic massively.
But that's when it gets most interesting. What else is there to say besides "Urgh I know nothing about this game but I sell all my minis and my books and my dog and my house because I hate Warhammer so much now" or "I know nothing about this game and for all I know each new mini has a coin slot in the back that has to be fed constantly to stop it exploding and throwing schrapnel in my face and that has to be emptied into the nearest GW till but I love it forever and will never ever play another game or version of Warhammer until the next one comes along two years later!"
I didn't drive, so I caught a bus that took over three hours to do a route which can be driven by car in a little over an hour, and I spent £75 on an Epic Tyranids army. Not, in the grand scheme of things a great deal of cash, but this was approx 20 years ago, and I was a student earning about £15 a week from my weekend job (and no other income.) Then I hung around all day because the bus I caught only had one return service.
Last week, I had to drive to Exeter for a hospital appointment. I drove within yards of where the GW is now (it has moved to a less prominent position since their original location has been redeveloped as one of the main shopping areas in the city.) I also met a friend for coffee within easy walking distance of the shop after my appointment.
I could do with an extra Chaos Rhino for my current project, and with that being the only item I'm currently in the market for, online discounters don't make a lot of sense, as postage normally erases all the discount plus interest, and despite hardly being wealthy right now, I can afford full price Rhinos.
Still. I couldn't be arsed to go into the shop to pick one up.
It's this sort of apathy, alongside the baffling decison to refuse to act like a retailer, the GW really need to tackle (alongside a laundry list of other things not really relevant to the thread.)
They can reinvent, rerelease and update all of the things, but until more customers are getting excited for them, and are looking to engage with their stores as destinations, their bigger problems will persist.
I wantAoS to be good, and a success, but even if it is, it'll still be lipstick on a pig.
I can relate to this. I remember the days of packed buses descending on mass to games day, or even people getting excited about 6th edition, or making the pilgrimage to GWHQ in Nottingham, just to have your photo taken next to that giant space marine statue. I'm getting all misty-eyed
I won't be buying it, and I wish them all the best with AOS, but I still cannot believe a company could take so much good will, so much loyalty from its customers, and throw it away.
I remember a mate, who worked in a GW store, working away until 4am, so they could get a display ready for games day, back in the day when stores used to do this...
I didn't drive, so I caught a bus that took over three hours to do a route which can be driven by car in a little over an hour, and I spent £75 on an Epic Tyranids army. Not, in the grand scheme of things a great deal of cash, but this was approx 20 years ago, and I was a student earning about £15 a week from my weekend job (and no other income.) Then I hung around all day because the bus I caught only had one return service.
Last week, I had to drive to Exeter for a hospital appointment. I drove within yards of where the GW is now (it has moved to a less prominent position since their original location has been redeveloped as one of the main shopping areas in the city.) I also met a friend for coffee within easy walking distance of the shop after my appointment.
I could do with an extra Chaos Rhino for my current project, and with that being the only item I'm currently in the market for, online discounters don't make a lot of sense, as postage normally erases all the discount plus interest, and despite hardly being wealthy right now, I can afford full price Rhinos.
Still. I couldn't be arsed to go into the shop to pick one up.
It's this sort of apathy, alongside the baffling decison to refuse to act like a retailer, the GW really need to tackle (alongside a laundry list of other things not really relevant to the thread.)
They can reinvent, rerelease and update all of the things, but until more customers are getting excited for them, and are looking to engage with their stores as destinations, their bigger problems will persist.
I wantAoS to be good, and a success, but even if it is, it'll still be lipstick on a pig.
As someone who hasn't bothered to read the HH books, I can only assume that the other factions/races didn't exist in the galaxy during that period? For an ancient race, it's odd that the Eldar weren't doing anything at that time...no Ork or Dark Eldar raids? Tyranids hadn't entered the galaxy yet?
The Tyranids had not entered the galaxy yet, the Necrons were still in deep hibernation and the Tau were not technologically advanced enough to be even a blip on the radar. The Eldar and Dark Eldar were still reeling from the creation of Slannesh at that time, so not much of a factor, although this isn't really highlighted in the books I've read so far (I'm 4-5 behind now). Only the Orks were around in force, and a massive Waaagh was defeated at Ullanor by the Emperor and Horus shortly before the traitor was named Warmaster and the Emperor returned to Earth. Other alien species not represented in miniature form exist in the HH novels, but they tend to get wiped out pretty quick.
I was surprised to learn that the Emperor's Great Crusade was in part aided by the birth of Slannesh. According to... what's it called, the Lexicanum? website, the birth of Slannesh resulted in a psychic wavefront that emanated from the Eye of Terror and spread across the galaxy. This is what killed off most of the Eldar race. In the wake of that psychic wave, the Warp went calm, ending the warpstorms that had isolated the disparate planets of humanity. It was at this point that the Emperor started his Great Crusade, as reliable warp travel was possible for the first time in... I dunno, a really long time!
Sorry to get into 40K in this thread!
Back to Fantasy Battle, I for one have been buying up Island of Blood miniatures to use in Kings of War. Whatever new stuff GW is coming out with doesn't really interest me. I'm only interested in their current aesthic for Fantasy. Fantasy space marines? Oh, the irony! They have truly run out of ideas if that's true.
odinsgrandson wrote:Honestly, the systems that pick up steam tend to be ones that offer something new to players. New games survive based on the three main elements (fluff, mechanics and miniatures) and all three need to be both excellent and original. Players need to have a reason to play a new game instead of an older one (that they probably already have minis for).
Only from a certain point of view. You've touched on two things that I've ranted about recently, involving the 'package' type game with all three of those elements in one, that's encouraged by GW and clung to by GW - and some ex-GW - gamers. The first is that I think these games gather steam not (just) because they have that package, but because the package is somewhat familiar and comforting to the considerable numbers of gamers leaving GW. Big flashy models with their own particular big flashy stories and big flashy rules, all in one stop. The problem is that, while the gameplay might be improved on GW's (how could it not?), most of these games still rely on those special rules to sell minis, and it leads to another similarity to GW games: power creep, listbuilding, and imbalance.
The other thing is that when the package is encouraged and clung to for long enough, or without reference to any other way, the attitude becomes like yours: not just gravitated towards because GW gamers are used to it, but viewed as how games must be. This model must have it's own special, unique, defining (imbalancing, bogging down...) rules and considerable backstory taking up pages of the rulebook. What's the point, otherwise? But this is a nonsense. Some gamers view fluff, rules and minis as indivisible, but that's only a state of mind encouraged by GW, among others. It's not true, and only limits your choices.
Historical gamers alone are a sizeable chunk of the wargaming demographic that prove that. You've got a couple of package games in there like FoW or Saga; but for the most part historical gamers are free to decide on the period (the fluff, so to speak) that draws them the most, then decide on which company's minis to use, then choose the rules to play the period. And they know it. Fantasy and sci-fi gamers can do the same, if they're not so conditioned to view the GW situation as the norm. You talk about veteran gamers: these should be the ones exploring different rules, minis and settings for themselves, even coming up with their own background and settings, at least; rather than only hanging onto apron strings, and certainly not just waiting for just the right gift-wrapped package to be dumped in their lap, and not bothering to shift themselves if it never comes. I know people who game LotR without reference to GW's minis or rules. Heck, I know a bunch who game Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire, and that doesn't even have an official wargame to ignore! (Dark Sword have a line of official ASoIaF minis, but they're more collectors' and painters' display items than gaming minis)
In fact, among the recent package-type fantasy and sci-fi games, I have to point out KoW as bucking the trend. It's not my first choice for a fantasy battle game (somewhere about second, tho) but I just have to admire the way it was built up from the start as alternative rules and minis, with choice at the core, and the way it's fans carry on that ethos. Earlier I agreed with whoever-it-was (sorry guy) who called out the tired old complaints of a game that doesn't have the best minis, when it's highly compatible with Warhammer and other minis. KoW players get the idea of division of minis and rules, much more than GW players, and dare I say players of PP, Malifaux, Infinity and such.
As for unique mechanics, I stand by what I said: there's nothing new under the sun. I've heard a lot of Malifaux's exciting and unique playing card mechanic, but from long experience with it I can say that it's just another randomisation method, offering little more than 2D6 with a handful of rerolls. You'll find Warmachine's focus and combos in slightly different forms and under different names in other games. You can give orders and roll D20s in other games besides Infinity, too.
You might look down on GW, and praise the half-dozen GWesque games as being better and balanced and broader; but it's like stopping your visits to MacDonalds and claiming you now have more open, adventurous, even eclectic dining choices, when the only other places you go to are Burger King, KFC, Pizza Hut...
I get what you're saying, and I agree to a certain extent, but comparing with historicals is a bit unfair. By definition, all companies involved in historical gaming are dealing with the same "fluff" and the same miniatures. You can pick up any miniature or any ruleset and know that it will work with anything else dealing with the same period. A Sherman is a Sherman is a Sherman. You can't say the same for Fantasy/sci-fi. Even if every Fantasy game had a variation on elves or dwarves (and most do) there will always be significant differences. Even Mantic are forced to make "not-warhammer" army lists, because their own races , while similar, aren't unit-for-unit analogues to GW miniatures. And that's what people want.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: ...making the pilgrimage to GWHQ in Nottingham, just to have your photo taken next to that giant space marine statue. I'm getting all misty-eyed
I did that - all the way from the USA - back in 1998!
I was in the UK anyway, but diverted a significant distance to do this.
Had a blast and got to chat with Gav who was just hanging around!
But yeah, those times seem long since gone, dead, buried and just about forgotten...
I was down at Meeplemart (one of the largest game shops in Toronto) the other day and had an interesting conversation with the owner. He said that GW sent intructions to have all of the Fantasy product pulled off shelves and disposed of (indeed there was nothing fantasy related for sale in the store). He recored all the UPC codes of what stock he had and send them to GW for re-imbursment. He was literally handing out free army books to customers (not sure what he did to the kits though). He said that GW is planning to release Age of Sigmar later in the year (he quoted November). He also, exclaimed how difficult it is to drum up interest in this new game with no details.
I have no dog in this fight - just though people might like to hear this.
Popped into GW Southampton to peer at the blue signs today.
With tongue planted in cheek, I asked the blackshirt if he had any info.
"Yeah, we'll find out two days before when the White Dwarfs come in, but we might be told keep quiet about it even then."
So... you find out two days after the internet then.
He also inferred it was going to be a really really big release. Whether he meant lots of stuff or just that it was going to be - BIG - I'm afraid I failed to clarify.
Flashman wrote: Popped into GW Southampton to peer at the blue signs today.
With tongue planted in cheek, I asked the blackshirt if he had any info.
"Yeah, we'll find out two days before when the White Dwarfs come in, but we might be told keep quiet about it even then."
So... you find out two days after the internet then.
He also inferred it was going to be a really really big release. Whether he meant lots of stuff or just that it was going to be - BIG - I'm afraid I failed to clarify.
And another thing I've discussed with you in the past: your days of reading white dwarf for free in WHS, are over
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: ...making the pilgrimage to GWHQ in Nottingham, just to have your photo taken next to that giant space marine statue. I'm getting all misty-eyed
I did that - all the way from the USA - back in 1998!
I was in the UK anyway, but diverted a significant distance to do this.
Had a blast and got to chat with Gav who was just hanging around!
But yeah, those times seem long since gone, dead, buried and just about forgotten...
And a damn shame it is as well. Hell, back then you could turn up, wander in there, and talk to Jervis or Rick, no problem.
I'm watching this, but I feel completely jaded about it. Without a serious price restructure on their rules, I just can't see myself buying in. I've got too many cheaper options that are of good quality.
People who shelled out for End Times books must be a bit peeved by now, I'd say.
Still, I am watching this and I am more interested than I have been.
I used to have 4 fully painted entirely GW fantasy armies. I still have my GW Dwarves and Orcs, and a large painted Mantic Undead army that was originally supposed to be Vampire Counts, as well as an unassembled Chaos army. So you'd think I'd be more excited...
holden88 wrote: I was down at Meeplemart (one of the largest game shops in Toronto) the other day and had an interesting conversation with the owner. He said that GW sent intructions to have all of the Fantasy product pulled off shelves and disposed of (indeed there was nothing fantasy related for sale in the store). He recored all the UPC codes of what stock he had and send them to GW for re-imbursment. He was literally handing out free army books to customers (not sure what he did to the kits though). He said that GW is planning to release Age of Sigmar later in the year (he quoted November). He also, exclaimed how difficult it is to drum up interest in this new game with no details.
I have no dog in this fight - just though people might like to hear this.
November? GW itself has released information that pre-orders for AoS are the 4th of July and release the 11th.... Possibly the additional, not-skirmish, ruleset that's been rumored?
Da Boss wrote: People who shelled out for End Times books must be a bit peeved by now, I'd say.
People who shell out for rulebooks that basically tell you that they're going to end the Warhammer World as you know it thereby making this all null and void need to think more carefully about their purchases.
So where are the rumours? I see like 1 post about rumours and 24 pages of people talking about things they think they heard while their friend was in the toilet with a guy talking about a rumour.....
This is alot less news and rumors then. Make things up and have pages of pointless complaining.
Da Boss wrote: Sorry OgreChubbs, are you new to DakkaDakka?
I retired for a while when I got annoyed by people for insulting people with good paint jobs who where new and praised people who where here a long time who did piss poor job.
Even before I bought Nagash it was pretty clear that this was the End of Warhammer campaign. Wenn I bought it anyhow since I was with Warhammer for about 20ish years and wanted The End Collection to read and as a good buy.
Now that it is dead from a commercial point of view I wait for the new product and hope it is good and that I enjoy it. Will I rebase my old stuff for a new game? No I don't think so ... those armies will be for when I meet with old friends for beer and games a few times a year.
So were does that leave me? Fresh start, new army and hopefully no more 50ish blocks of infantry to paint up !
I wantAoS to be good, and a success, but even if it is, it'll still be lipstick on a pig.
Yes, they really ARE good at dispelling their own magic, aren't they?
Almost everybody has fond memories of GW, and most of them turned into disillusioned grumblings.
Can't be ONLY us, surely?
My problem is it's the same dang people writing this new game.
A new game means nothing to me if it's by the same folks who brought us 7th ed 40k, the AM split across two books etc...
So why would I have any faith thje same folks will now magically produce a game that's streamlines, fun, open-ended yet also backwards compatible with the existing model line?
JohnHwangDD wrote: [quote=Da Boss 643158 7914565 3b369a9fa46391cd1ac548de73a946de.jpgPeople who shelled out for End Times books must be a bit peeved by now, I'd say.
Because GW Ended Warhammer Fantasy with a bang, not a whimper?
Because in terms of usability in the "current meta" those books look like being GW's shortest ever period of usability, and they were very expensive hard backed books rather than cheap softback booklets as the old campaign books used to be.
adamsouza wrote: GW actually discourages sales of any sort on their products from retailers. They view it as competition with their web store.
Again, complete madness. It's part of the salesman's trade to have a discount, or an offer, up his sleeve. Retailers are the same.
A few years back, I went on a spending spree at a FLGS, bought tons of stuff. I made the mistake of not buying dice or paint brushes, but because of the large amount of money I was handing over, I got free dice and paint brushes from the store owner.
GW used to give stuff away years ago when a new stores opened. People would come from miles around to take advantage of the buy 2, get a 3rd free, offers.
Now They're saying that if I spent £300, they wouldn't throw in a free bag of dice, or something. I bet some retailers would do that.
Hell if you spent that much when I was working in a LGS I think I'd have thrown in a box of something free.
adamsouza wrote: GW actually discourages sales of any sort on their products from retailers. They view it as competition with their web store.
Again, complete madness. It's part of the salesman's trade to have a discount, or an offer, up his sleeve. Retailers are the same.
A few years back, I went on a spending spree at a FLGS, bought tons of stuff. I made the mistake of not buying dice or paint brushes, but because of the large amount of money I was handing over, I got free dice and paint brushes from the store owner.
GW used to give stuff away years ago when a new stores opened. People would come from miles around to take advantage of the buy 2, get a 3rd free, offers.
Now They're saying that if I spent £300, they wouldn't throw in a free bag of dice, or something. I bet some retailers would do that.
Hell if you spent that much when I was working in a LGS I think I'd have thrown in a box of something free.
If GW had a heart, they would do what FOW did when they gave anybody with a hardback copy of 2nd edition rules, a free softback copy of the 3rd edition rules.
If I were running GW, anybody with a full set of End times rulebooks would get a free softback AOS rulebook.
Da Boss wrote: People who shelled out for End Times books must be a bit peeved by now, I'd say.
Because GW Ended Warhammer Fantasy with a bang, not a whimper?
Because in terms of usability in the "current meta" those books look like being GW's shortest ever period of usability, and they were very expensive hard backed books rather than cheap softback booklets as the old campaign books used to be.
So? They have high production values compared to cheap softbacks, and they close out the story. If one were just getting rules, rather than a physical, tangible object, there are much cheaper ways to play.
The fact is, GW has been pushing "End Times", and GW really did end things.
Da Boss wrote: People who shelled out for End Times books must be a bit peeved by now, I'd say.
People who shell out for rulebooks that basically tell you that they're going to end the Warhammer World as you know it thereby making this all null and void need to think more carefully about their purchases.
Or they bough them because they enjoyed them? I bought the whole set in hardback (wasn't 100% going to, the Nagash was an impulse that sucked me in) but I thoroughly enjoyed all of them except Khaine. Elvish names sound to similar and the story was a bit meh. But I think the pleasure the story gave me is worth it. Plus it was the end of the Warhammer World I'd been playing in off and on for 18 years so having the ending appealed to me
I will say anyone who bought those books thinking of them as anything other than a year long campaign was lying to themselves.
The only one of the End Times books that I felt ripped off by was Khaine.
It was poorly done, and the only good things to come out of it were the new Magic rules and the revision to the crummy Forest Stalker rule Wood Elves have.
The Elf army lists were trash, the wholesale slaughter of basically every named Elf character and the convoluted(yet obvious) storyline was disappointing. It was especially irritating to me because I was not able to preorder it, on time, because of the fact that Khaine had the single lowest print run they did on the standard edition of the End Times books.
Kanluwen wrote: The only one of the End Times books that I felt ripped off by was Khaine.
It was poorly done, and the only good things to come out of it were the new Magic rules and the revision to the crummy Forest Stalker rule Wood Elves have.
The Elf army lists were trash, the wholesale slaughter of basically every named Elf character and the convoluted(yet obvious) storyline was disappointing. It was especially irritating to me because I was not able to preorder it, on time, because of the fact that Khaine had the single lowest print run they did on the standard edition of the End Times books.
Yeah, I only got it because it was slightly damaged (like ridiculously slight) and a guy returned it and the store owner gave him his hardback. So when the paperbacks came in he sold me the hardback for the paperback price. Which is why I don't loathe the Khaine book
Da Boss wrote: People who shelled out for End Times books must be a bit peeved by now, I'd say.
People who shell out for rulebooks that basically tell you that they're going to end the Warhammer World as you know it thereby making this all null and void need to think more carefully about their purchases.
Or they bough them because they enjoyed them? I bought the whole set in hardback (wasn't 100% going to, the Nagash was an impulse that sucked me in) but I thoroughly enjoyed all of them except Khaine. Elvish names sound to similar and the story was a bit meh. But I think the pleasure the story gave me is worth it. Plus it was the end of the Warhammer World I'd been playing in off and on for 18 years so having the ending appealed to me
Couldn't they have done it as series of (much cheaper) novels via Black Library then?
Da Boss wrote: People who shelled out for End Times books must be a bit peeved by now, I'd say.
People who shell out for rulebooks that basically tell you that they're going to end the Warhammer World as you know it thereby making this all null and void need to think more carefully about their purchases.
Or they bough them because they enjoyed them? I bought the whole set in hardback (wasn't 100% going to, the Nagash was an impulse that sucked me in) but I thoroughly enjoyed all of them except Khaine. Elvish names sound to similar and the story was a bit meh. But I think the pleasure the story gave me is worth it. Plus it was the end of the Warhammer World I'd been playing in off and on for 18 years so having the ending appealed to me
Couldn't they have done it as series of (much cheaper) novels via Black Library then?
They did, in fact a lot of the gaps in the story line are actually in the Black Library End Times series
Kanluwen wrote: The only one of the End Times books that I felt ripped off by was Khaine.
It was poorly done, and the only good things to come out of it were the new Magic rules and the revision to the crummy Forest Stalker rule Wood Elves have.
The Elf army lists were trash, the wholesale slaughter of basically every named Elf character and the convoluted(yet obvious) storyline was disappointing. It was especially irritating to me because I was not able to preorder it, on time, because of the fact that Khaine had the single lowest print run they did on the standard edition of the End Times books.
The only part of Khaine that I disliked was the fact that they ruined the ending by resurrecting Tyrion in End Times: Archaon. Seemed needless, until I got to the end of Archaon and he's there standing with the Everqueen in hand, watching the worlds ending come to them. Great piece of artwork.
All of the new art in the End Times books were awesome, now that I think of it.
Kanluwen wrote: The only one of the End Times books that I felt ripped off by was Khaine.
It was poorly done, and the only good things to come out of it were the new Magic rules and the revision to the crummy Forest Stalker rule Wood Elves have.
The Elf army lists were trash, the wholesale slaughter of basically every named Elf character and the convoluted(yet obvious) storyline was disappointing. It was especially irritating to me because I was not able to preorder it, on time, because of the fact that Khaine had the single lowest print run they did on the standard edition of the End Times books.
You go on about how bad and trashy a book is, then say you were disappointed because you couldn't pre order it?
Kanluwen wrote: The only one of the End Times books that I felt ripped off by was Khaine.
It was poorly done, and the only good things to come out of it were the new Magic rules and the revision to the crummy Forest Stalker rule Wood Elves have.
The Elf army lists were trash, the wholesale slaughter of basically every named Elf character and the convoluted(yet obvious) storyline was disappointing. It was especially irritating to me because I was not able to preorder it, on time, because of the fact that Khaine had the single lowest print run they did on the standard edition of the End Times books.
You go on about how bad and trashy a book is, then say you were disappointed because you couldn't pre order it?
Kanluwen wrote: The only one of the End Times books that I felt ripped off by was Khaine.
It was poorly done, and the only good things to come out of it were the new Magic rules and the revision to the crummy Forest Stalker rule Wood Elves have.
The Elf army lists were trash, the wholesale slaughter of basically every named Elf character and the convoluted(yet obvious) storyline was disappointing. It was especially irritating to me because I was not able to preorder it, on time, because of the fact that Khaine had the single lowest print run they did on the standard edition of the End Times books.
You go on about how bad and trashy a book is, then say you were disappointed because you couldn't pre order it?
You understand that I was EXCITED for the book when I went to preorder it, right? That the only thing I knew about it was that it was featuring two of my favorite armies(Wood Elves and Dark Elves)?
It was not until I had the book in hand, devoured the fluff section, and then played using the armies within that I realized how disappointing it was. Considering the quality that was Glottkin and Nagash, Khaine was the standout in sucking. Khaine was also the last of the End Times books I bought as a result.
Bharring wrote: They did make it explicit that said books would *not* be obsolete. If they hadn't, you might have a point.
But their actions of pulling all these books they say are not becoming obselete totally contradicts it. If the books werent becoming obsolete why wont they still be for sale?
Another fruitless hour of my life wasted with GW...
-YES! This will be the biggest launch ever.
-YES! we will be supporting retailers.
..uh, no, we don't know what we are doing about the old books....even though we asked you for an inventory...
...uh, no, we don't have anything to tell you....but trust us
....uh, no. while we say we are supporting you and encouraging you to go huge with your weekend events...we don't really have anything we can say on how we are supporting you.
..Magic? What does MTG have to do with warhammer? Pre-release weekend the same week as AOS release, don't be silly, you know you love warhams.
mikhaila wrote: Another fruitless hour of my life wasted with GW...
-YES! This will be the biggest launch ever.
-YES! we will be supporting retailers.
..uh, no, we don't know what we are doing about the old books....even though we asked you for an inventory...
...uh, no, we don't have anything to tell you....but trust us
....uh, no. while we say we are supporting you and encouraging you to go huge with your weekend events...we don't really have anything we can say on how we are supporting you.
..Magic? What does MTG have to do with warhammer? Pre-release weekend the same week as AOS release, don't be silly, you know you love warhams.
Very Frustrating.
So no launch party, then?
It cuts to the root of what I've been saying - kamikaze business practices are GW's stock in trade. My local videogame store goes crazy when a new call of duty is released. Discounts on control pads, accessories etc etc but not GW.
I'm willing to bet that if I walked into your store and spent $500 on stuff, but forgot to buy a $5 bag of dice and a paint brush, you would probably throw them in for free.
GW stores used to do that, but unfortunately, no more. Hell, they won't even do a buy 2, get one 1, on products, like they used to.
Hah, not that I'd expect GW to pay attention to what the competition is doing, but to ignore an MtG pre, especially a unique one like the upcoming Origins, is silly.
Then again, they just want stuff to sell. It doesn't really matter if anyone's playing with it, right?
Grimtuff wrote: So, preorder on a holiday weekend and released the same day as a big MTG preorder...
I think we can assume AoS might be DOA.
It never occurred to me to check out what GW's opposition would be doing on that weekend. As you say, AOS could go down like the Titanic.
What competition? GW has no competition. The Internet is a fad. Magic and Pokemon will die out any day. Ex employees starting their own company? Nah, not a chance.
Actually, I'm buying up fantasy to play with 6th Ed rules, and current unit prices (to make everything useable), or 8th edition full rules except 6th edition magic. Figured out how to bring my 6th edition Incredible Hulk back into my WoC list, so that kinda makes me happy.
Grimtuff wrote: So, preorder on a holiday weekend and released the same day as a big MTG preorder...
I think we can assume AoS might be DOA.
It's silly and unnecessary, but not backbreaking. New games don't live or die based on who bought them on the first day, not when they have a large company behind them. It will take months for AOS to propagate through the system anyway, the fact some retailers will pick MtG over GW on that particular weekend doesn't really change much in the long run.
mikhaila wrote: Another fruitless hour of my life wasted with GW...
-YES! This will be the biggest launch ever.
-YES! we will be supporting retailers.
..uh, no, we don't know what we are doing about the old books....even though we asked you for an inventory...
...uh, no, we don't have anything to tell you....but trust us
....uh, no. while we say we are supporting you and encouraging you to go huge with your weekend events...we don't really have anything we can say on how we are supporting you.
..Magic? What does MTG have to do with warhammer? Pre-release weekend the same week as AOS release, don't be silly, you know you love warhams.
Very Frustrating.
Do you sell Privateer Press stuf? If not already, did this make you consider selling it ?
Grimtuff wrote: So, preorder on a holiday weekend and released the same day as a big MTG preorder...
I think we can assume AoS might be DOA.
If AOS is a slow seller, than GW will be no worse off than they were since the initial shine wore off 8E. Except they will have far fewer SKUs to bother with. Winner!
mikhaila wrote: Another fruitless hour of my life wasted with GW...
-YES! This will be the biggest launch ever.
-YES! we will be supporting retailers.
..uh, no, we don't know what we are doing about the old books....even though we asked you for an inventory...
...uh, no, we don't have anything to tell you....but trust us
....uh, no. while we say we are supporting you and encouraging you to go huge with your weekend events...we don't really have anything we can say on how we are supporting you.
..Magic? What does MTG have to do with warhammer? Pre-release weekend the same week as AOS release, don't be silly, you know you love warhams.
Very Frustrating.
This must drive you absolutely up the fething wall.
I really cannot, for the life of me, understand how all of that BS cloak & dagger is good for anyone at all, lease of all GW.
Grimtuff wrote: So, preorder on a holiday weekend and released the same day as a big MTG preorder...
I think we can assume AoS might be DOA.
It's silly and unnecessary, but not backbreaking. New games don't live or die based on who bought them on the first day, not when they have a large company behind them. It will take months for AOS to propagate through the system anyway, the fact some retailers will pick MtG over GW on that particular weekend doesn't really change much in the long run.
It can hurt it a lot, especially if GW is expecting it to be huge immediately, rather than have the slow build up that most smaller companies would expect.
Still, the biggest sellers of games is excited gamers, and that's what the release parties are all about.
If I were invested in AoS being a success, my concern would be slow initial sales would be interpreted as lack of demand and it being dropped by Christmas.
GW don't have the mechanisms in place to know why it sold slowly, so they'll forge their own narrative.
mikhaila wrote: Another fruitless hour of my life wasted with GW...
-YES! This will be the biggest launch ever.
-YES! we will be supporting retailers.
..uh, no, we don't know what we are doing about the old books....even though we asked you for an inventory...
...uh, no, we don't have anything to tell you....but trust us
....uh, no. while we say we are supporting you and encouraging you to go huge with your weekend events...we don't really have anything we can say on how we are supporting you.
..Magic? What does MTG have to do with warhammer? Pre-release weekend the same week as AOS release, don't be silly, you know you love warhams.
Very Frustrating.
Is GW operating off some kind of school of business that most people aren't aware of (whether poorly implemented or not), or are they just completely unschooled amateurs?
This isn't meant as a snarky question btw; it's just that it seems so hard for me to fathom that a company that's been doing this for so long, would run things the way they do without some kind of reason... It's so weird to me how they had more of an online presence back when the internet was barely a thing, than they do today. Theirs is a game that seems to lend itself so well to developer diaries, random work in progress photos in blog posts, with 'accidental' leaks of upcoming releases in the form of a barely visible WIP new kit etc.
Yet they go for this wall of silence with a website that is 100% catalogue (at least I haven't noticed anything else at a glance), and might I add, not even a very good catalogue given what they are selling. But there has to be some logic to it, are there any other businesses that run things this way (succcessfully)? Can't think of one off the top of my head but that doesn't mean much.
My friend was due to be made redundant from his government job.
He knew over a year before he left, and two years before the office closed.
Three months before he left, they supplied him with a new computer. A computer which is now either still in a closed office or in some storage somewhere.
This closed office used to be owned by the UK government, but in heir infinite wisdom they sold it to a private company who them rented it back to them.
This governmental department is the one Tom Kirby worked for before entering wargaming.
The comparison someone made to videogame stores doing launches for a certain game isn't really a great one - yeah these events happen but only because the market has massive competition between major companies within the videogame industry.
GW actually has no competition on the same scale as them in their home markets. People go on about share prices, shareholders......they are, as far as I know, the ony wargaming company that even has shareholders in that sense. They have hundreds of their own stores worldwide, and sure, these are 2/1 man operations in many cases but, from the point of view of just selling stuff, that's actually more than doable and effective.
In terms of customer service they are actually really good compared to others in the industry - it's not good service when company "x" sends you the missing part for free and an extra thing, its good service when they get the parts right in the first place. I've had one issue with a GW order ever, and it was minor (the dust jacket on a book was a bit torn as the package had taken a big hit in transit, so not even their control) and they sorted it super fast with a replacement, and I could keep the original, and an extra book. All for a small bit of damage that didnt stop me using the item. By comparison I have lost count of how many times I have had to request missing parts from Warlord, Privateer and a few others and, Warlord excluded, the turnaround time is terribe.
As someone who abandoned GW several years ago when my finances meant I couldnt drop a small mountain of money into new stuff, Age of Sigmar has me anticipating the rumours being largely true. Unit cards, no scores of markers and wound tracking, one shot spells, smaller model count, wider factions and armies - win.
GW is looking to grow the market, I honest think with Age of Sigmar they've looked at what the competition is doing, figured that the old Warhammer was never going to draw many people in that are new as it had gotten to bloated hundreds of model strong 3000 points armies, and decided a clean sweep and restart is for the best. Anyone who has bought in already; they have your money and the old stuff potentially has little resale value once AoS comes out, and they know that people new to the hobby spend more in the first six months, generally, than someone who has been in for a long time.
Hopefully more news leaks before official preorders, I'm 99% sure these leaks are orchestrated by GW anyway with the fakes thrown in to add doubt and then a fair few others just extrapolating from these that they hope will be true.
My friend was due to be made redundant from his government job.
He knew over a year before he left, and two years before the office closed.
Three months before he left, they supplied him with a new computer. A computer which is now either still in a closed office or in some storage somewhere.
This closed office used to be owned by the UK government, but in heir infinite wisdom they sold it to a private company who them rented it back to them.
This governmental department is the one Tom Kirby worked for before entering wargaming.
My friend was due to be made redundant from his government job.
He knew over a year before he left, and two years before the office closed.
Three months before he left, they supplied him with a new computer. A computer which is now either still in a closed office or in some storage somewhere.
This closed office used to be owned by the UK government, but in heir infinite wisdom they sold it to a private company who them rented it back to them.
This governmental department is the one Tom Kirby worked for before entering wargaming.
My friend was due to be made redundant from his government job.
He knew over a year before he left, and two years before the office closed.
Three months before he left, they supplied him with a new computer. A computer which is now either still in a closed office or in some storage somewhere.
This closed office used to be owned by the UK government, but in heir infinite wisdom they sold it to a private company who them rented it back to them.
This governmental department is the one Tom Kirby worked for before entering wargaming.
Wait this was a thing?
Hand on heart, gods honest truth, my friend even posts on here occasionally.
I've only experienced it second hand, but if you view GW through the prism of being run to feather Kirby's retirement nest, things make a lot more sense, if you then use the fact that Kirby came into private commerce from the civil service, the things that don't fit with the greed suddenly make sense too. All the apparent ADHD, investing heavily in one direction, only to drop it and do and about face, all the abortive attempts at this or that with no follow through, plus the massive disconnect between how GW do business and how a sane company would act in the same circumstance all scream public sector. Public sector "companies" are government controlled, aren't subject to any sort of commerical pressure and therefore can end up doing things in highly unorthodox and massively inefficient ways, but it doesn't matter, because you can't take your tax business or your vehicle registration or passport queries elsewhere.
I can only hope Hewitt has something to do with this.
At least Ward is finally gone. I know we said that like a year ago, but if you look at his writing credits, all the End Times books are listed in there.
You know... people keep mentioning Hewitt and hoping he helps with the game's design... You do realize he was a community manager and part-time editor for Mantic, right? Nothing more.
If my brief time working with him on the Deadzone fiction anthology (before the terrific Greg Smith replaced him) is any indication... I don't know how good at logistics and the like he is.
When I say "logistics" I am being kind. I am talking about basic organization and critical thinking skills... Stuff which would be pretty beneficial to a designer.
I organized more play-tests when I was helping design Strange Aeons 2nd Ed. than I think James played total games of Dreadball, Deadzone, etc... :-p I saw him get rules wrong in games he was community manager for... Things like that.
Compel wrote: The rumours I've been hearing around was, basically Fantasy had until the next financial year (April) to really pick up.
Even if Fantasy totally stalled with miserable sales, GW's smart move would be to remove any requirement for FLGS to carry Fantasy, largely remove it from their own stores, and essentially sell models and books from 8e online. They still have a large number of pretty cool fantasy kits.
On the other hand, if GW ditched Fantasy and stopped selling models, I'd make a killing selling my BNIB fantasy stuff like Nagash online -- Since I probably will never get around to building it anyhow, at least not til I have like, at least 10,000 points of every 40k faction done.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: You know... people keep mentioning Hewitt and hoping he helps with the game's design... You do realize he was a community manager and part-time editor for Mantic, right? Nothing more.
Yeah, but the job he got at GW was as a games designer. At the very least, a bit of fresh blood in that area would be good.
mikhaila wrote: Another fruitless hour of my life wasted with GW...
-YES! This will be the biggest launch ever.
-YES! we will be supporting retailers.
..uh, no, we don't know what we are doing about the old books....even though we asked you for an inventory...
...uh, no, we don't have anything to tell you....but trust us
....uh, no. while we say we are supporting you and encouraging you to go huge with your weekend events...we don't really have anything we can say on how we are supporting you.
..Magic? What does MTG have to do with warhammer? Pre-release weekend the same week as AOS release, don't be silly, you know you love warhams.
Very Frustrating.
Do you sell Privateer Press stuf? If not already, did this make you consider selling it ?
I have a 40 ft wall of everything that privateer has in production, plus the entire line of Flames of war, and quite a few smaller games like infinity, malifaux, xwing/armada, bolt action, saga, All Quiet on the Martion Front,. I tend to go with the "stock it all' theory when I go into a line of games. Putting too much into one game can hurt when that game cools off.
GW used to be a mainstay for us. Our GW sales sometimes equalled other stores total sales. Ironically, if you looked at our Organized Play each week, you'd see little GW, but tons of other games. Two days a week for boardgames, Leagues for Xwing, Privateer, about 8 DnD games running various nights. MTG on 3 nights a week, Historical group meets 2 days a week. GW has been tougher to run lately, but it's an awesome time for everything else. That's sort of what frustrates me the most. We have a huge number of people in playing games, and I love my GW games, but there isn't as much excitement for them.
I really want to get a league going on Saturdays for Age of Sigmar......I just sort of need to know what it is first, and convince people they want to play with me. Nothing kicks off a new league like a big release event and being part of a group right when the new game comes out. Would love to run a big weekend for AoS, GW is just making it harder and harder to do that as weeks go by with no information.
I really want to get a league going on Saturdays for Age of Sigmar......I just sort of need to know what it is first, and convince people they want to play with me. Nothing kicks off a new league like a big release event and being part of a group right when the new game comes out. Would love to run a big weekend for AoS, GW is just making it harder and harder to do that as weeks go by with no information.
Mik,
It sounds like you might just have to schedule the new league to start the 18th instead? So you have a week to roll-out/prepare/absorb the new system? That's unfortunate, of course... it still just blows my mind how GW insists on keeping this so 'hush hush' when it is supposed to be such a huge deal. Even their little 'ad' and 'teaser video' were -beyond- lame.
What part of the country are you in, btw? The way you describe your business set-up sounds absolutely awesome.
You'd think GW would at least inform LGS owners about the release and have them sign an NDA specifying what about the game they can and cannot talk about.
At least then they could sell the idea to customers to build hype.
Instead, for all we know it's a single book releasing with no box set and it's actually a graphic novel about the exploits of KISS in space. That's how much official info we have: zero.
It does reek of insanity that 15 days away from the "BIG" advance order day for AOS that we have nothing concrete about the release. It seems dead in the water before it has even happened.
Azreal13 wrote:
Nobody at GW seems to get that sometimes goodwill is more valuable than money.
Everyone likes getting a bit of something for nowt!
My wife was at Twitter HQ Dublin this week, and I asked her to ask them to get my account verified. They said no, silly man, you're not famous! But they did send me a twitter mug.
adamsouza wrote:
zacharia wrote: If the books werent becoming obsolete why wont they still be for sale?
It doens't really matter if they are compatible or not.
The End Times Books are supplements for the Warhammer Fantasy game that no longer exists.
They are going out of their way to re-brand and reboot as Age of Sigmar
So?! It's called End Times! It's Ended!
The Dark Tower was the last book in Stephen Kings The Dark Tower series.
The story ending has no impact on my enjoyment of everything that preceded it, and I am able to re-read the saga whenever the mood takes me.
Grimtuff wrote:So, preorder on a holiday weekend and released the same day as a big MTG preorder...
I think we can assume AoS might be DOA.
Is MtG that big? I've only seen a handful of very odd people playing it at Manchesters premier stink pit, Fanboy3.
Micky wrote:
Yeah, but the job he got at GW was as a games designer. At the very least, a bit of fresh blood in that area would be good.
Release at the same time as MTG?
I can actually imagine lots of magic players that dont follow GW rumors (anymore) that show up for the magic buzz and instead see some new fresh GW stuff in the FLGS.
Probably benefit AOS more than not, letting it ride on the magic event rather than GWs ovn marketing.
Because, lets face it, how many non WHFB players follow these rumors?
And the point of the whole remake must surely bee to draw in some new players for fantasy, right?
(gods know they dont do alot of flirting with the old player base)
If the AoS launch is on the same day as the MTG Origins (pre-)release it will get a big FU from my local game store as there will be no room for a GW event.
Fayric wrote: Release at the same time as MTG?
I can actually imagine lots of magic players that dont follow GW rumors (anymore) that show up for the magic buzz and instead see some new fresh GW stuff in the FLGS.
Probably benefit AOS more than not, letting it ride on the magic event rather than GWs ovn marketing.
Because, lets face it, how many non WHFB players follow these rumors?
And the point of the whole remake must surely bee to draw in some new players for fantasy, right?
(gods know they dont do alot of flirting with the old player base)
This will only realistically affect the retailers, not the game itself. As you mentioned, it might actually have a positive effect on AoS recognition. What sucks is that the stores will have to choose between two promotions, instead of having both, at different dates.
So many of GW's problems could be solved just by employing one or two "Nope Consultants". These are people who you pay a small retainer to to just look at your upcoming releases and campaigns and say the word "Nope" as necessary. Hire Mikhaila or someone of similar experience to do a couple of hours a month of just looking at the retail side to say "Nope, that release date is no good, major MtG release on the same day" etc. Hire one powergamer or tournament gamer to read each new codex etc. and say "Nope, that combo is overpowered, etc." In fact they could probably just hire Reecius to do both jobs.
edlowe wrote: Maybe they shouldn't have lost Ronney Renton?
Speaking of Herr Renton, I wonder what would happen if GW started using crowdfunding on stuff like this.
They're big enough that they could run it themselves to save the KS fees or could also go with KS.
Esp. if they use it as a pre-order system for stuff they already have in the pipeline and might restrict/delay from retail availability.
Tailor codexes so that the KS stuff has better game efficiency and there-you-go.
edlowe wrote: Maybe they shouldn't have lost Ronney Renton?
Maybe they should have gotten rid of Kirby immediately after his first(necessary) restructuring of the company back in the 90's, rather than allowing him to embed himself like a tick and begin running the company for his personal enrichment and the advancement of his cronies.
Grimtuff wrote:So, preorder on a holiday weekend and released the same day as a big MTG preorder...
I think we can assume AoS might be DOA.
Is MtG that big? I've only seen a handful of very odd people playing it at Manchesters premier stink pit, Fanboy3.
Magic, Big? You could say that. Magic single-handedly keeps many hobby and gaming stores in the black. If I ran a store and had to choose between a well publicised and well known about launch of Magic or a murky unknown in the form of Age of Sigmar, then Sigmar's going to be relegated to a handful of stock posters and a small display in the corner. Maybe a demo table if I had the room. Magic will be given centre stage as that's where the money and numbers lie. Plus, I'd know what to expect ahead of time, so can plan properly for it, make sure staff are about and are educated on what they need to know, arrange the store accordingly, get posters and flyers printed, take to the Internet, launch day promotions, etc etc etc.
edlowe wrote: Maybe they shouldn't have lost Ronney Renton?
Speaking of Herr Renton, I wonder what would happen if GW started using crowdfunding on stuff like this.
They're big enough that they could run it themselves to save the KS fees or could also go with KS.
Esp. if they use it as a pre-order system for stuff they already have in the pipeline and might restrict/delay from retail availability.
Tailor codexes so that the KS stuff has better game efficiency and there-you-go.
GW spends more money refilling the coffee machine at HQ than Mantic makes on Kickstarter in a year. Why would they need to crowdfund?
Milhaila can correct me if I'm wrong but people!e going to a MtG release and dropping their nerd budget there probably won't be looking into a GW game that nobody knew anything about until the previous week.
"Hmm, I can spend money on this product that is regularly supported and I know a large number of people play OR I can potentially throw it all out the window on something that the company who produces it obviously doesn't care enough about to even advertise.....whatever will I do with my limited resources?".
agnosto wrote: Milhaila can correct me if I'm wrong but people!e going to a MtG release and dropping their nerd budget there probably won't be looking into a GW game that nobody knew anything about until the previous week.
"Hmm, I can spend money on this product that is regularly supported and I know a large number of people play OR I can potentially throw it all out the window on something that the company who produces it obviously doesn't care enough about to even advertise.....whatever will I do with my limited resources?".
You're funny. MTG players having limited resources. I thought I spent a lot of money on my hobby until I saw a bunch of MTG players drop more on cards than I do on TTG in a quarter and that was their weekly budget.
agnosto wrote: Milhaila can correct me if I'm wrong but people!e going to a MtG release and dropping their nerd budget there probably won't be looking into a GW game that nobody knew anything about until the previous week.
"Hmm, I can spend money on this product that is regularly supported and I know a large number of people play OR I can potentially throw it all out the window on something that the company who produces it obviously doesn't care enough about to even advertise.....whatever will I do with my limited resources?".
You're funny. MTG players having limited resources. I thought I spent a lot of money on my hobby until I saw a bunch of MTG players drop more on cards than I do on TTG in a quarter and that was their weekly budget.
The difference...
I played MTG for years... Then I sold my cards last year... Lots of mythics, foils and original duals, besides really rare cards... Made a LOT and I MEAN A LOT of money!
I buy GW products... Want to sold them... Win a few bucks :S
agnosto wrote: Milhaila can correct me if I'm wrong but people!e going to a MtG release and dropping their nerd budget there probably won't be looking into a GW game that nobody knew anything about until the previous week.
"Hmm, I can spend money on this product that is regularly supported and I know a large number of people play OR I can potentially throw it all out the window on something that the company who produces it obviously doesn't care enough about to even advertise.....whatever will I do with my limited resources?".
It's not so much a competition for dollars (though that is always a factor) as it is a competition for space. Most of the LGS I frequent can and often do fill the entire store with a MtG pre-release. There is unlikely going to be any space even available to have a display table/demo for AoS. I'm sure my experience isn't an outlier (though maybe GW hasn't considered the LGS or North America at all in this decision).
Shying away from a date because it is the release date of a competing product isn't always a good idea in all industries, but when you're talking niche markets that require table space, it's definitely worth considering.
agnosto wrote: Milhaila can correct me if I'm wrong but people!e going to a MtG release and dropping their nerd budget there probably won't be looking into a GW game that nobody knew anything about until the previous week.
"Hmm, I can spend money on this product that is regularly supported and I know a large number of people play OR I can potentially throw it all out the window on something that the company who produces it obviously doesn't care enough about to even advertise.....whatever will I do with my limited resources?".
You're funny. MTG players having limited resources. I thought I spent a lot of money on my hobby until I saw a bunch of MTG players drop more on cards than I do on TTG in a quarter and that was their weekly budget.
You took that statement too literal. They obviously don't have enough money for MtG AND a new version of fantasy, or whatever AoS will be, so, will they dump all the money they have the day of release on MtG, a known or spend the money they have budgeted for MtG that day on AoS? That was my point. Personally, I wouldn't come to a MtG event and spend my $300 on GW but maybe I'm crazy.
WotC gives info to store owners and it's hugely popular. Store owner buys lots of Magic to stock. GW releases new edition/board game/novel/birthday cake recipe on the same day as a new Magic release without giving any information. 99.9% of store owners will take the safe bet on that one. I didn't realize it was a Magic release weekend. GW actually lives in its little bubblehammer universe, doesn't it?
Formosa wrote: This magic you guys are talking about, is it the new magic phase of aos? No? Yeah, general discussion I think
I'd say whether releasing AoS on a major release weekend for Magic and the subsequent debate as to whether either game is sufficiently large to impact the other is, in the absence of any hard info, as close to topic we'll be getting.
So, I'll allow it! (As it seems everyone and their dog feels free to moderate this thread.)
That's because it's not news or a rumour, however I see what your saying, talking about how it will impact warhammer may be pertinent.
It won't impact the vets at all, if they want it, they will get it, the newbs that have already bought into the game won't be affected either as they will likely already know about it, walk ins however will defo be affected, they will see hordes of magic players and a few fantasy players as magic seems to be more popular everywhere I've been flgs wise.
If GW was smart enough, they would make a HUGE publicity on each store regarding AoS.
This would bring some players from MTG to AoS
This was how I started playing this... I was always a MTG player and then left it some years to play this... Then left this to play again MTG and left it again to start playing this when EoT started... Now I dunno if I will be back to some of these games ever
Changing release dates to avoid competition conflicts is very common. Look at movies. Plenty of blockbuster movies get delayed weeks or months based on other huge movies that announced release dates that were originally going to be used.
Star Wars moved from being summer films to Christmas films because they know what's in the pipeline and don't want to have competition for those weekends. You think Disney wanted to go head to head with Jurassic World(which is doing insanely well) or Mad Max? No. Instead they saw that the winter releases weren't nearly as big and opted to change the release to that time, even though the movie is done and sitting on a shelf waiting to be shipped out.
I'd say the problems here are a few things:
1. GW doesn't think they actually have competition, in any form. They think anyone who plays their games has money for their games that WILL be spent on GW product and nothing else. It's like they assume no players have other things competing for their money, like card games, video games, food, rent...
2. GW is likely clueless about the releases of other games and systems because they do zero market research, and those games don't exist in their stores. They don't keep track of what other games LGS's stock and what major events or releases those stores have lined up that might interfere with a release GW has planned. As such, they just assume if they stock GW games then they have the time/space/resources to host events and expect great turnout.
That second part could easily be mitigated if their sales reps bothered gathering info from store owners and working with them to get info out about a new release and give the stores the tools and info needed to help the success of a launch.
As we've seen with Mikhaila, they say less than nothing while still trying to gain sales.
I understand not wanting to bleed out all the info about a new release to the public so early, but surely LGS owners would gladly sign NDA's(which any store owner wouldn't dare breach for sake of losing their store) to be able to get the info needed to make a successful launch of a new product.
Hell, even at my local GW shop, after a few things released like the new paint line and misc other things, the manager admitted he knew about them 1-2 months ahead, and was able to plan store events and make veiled hints at things enough to garner interest. And he readily admitted he knew about it, but had NDA's to deal with, which I can respect.
So for, Age of Sigmar is nothing more than some blue cards on some shelves and some conflicting rumors. With less than a month until the release, that doesn't put much goodwill into whatever it will be.
Part of GW's problem is they base all decisions on the UK model. If they think it works there, they figure it works everywhere. They sort of forget the whole think about different cultures and countries 100 times as big. They also seem to ignore how marketing works differently in different parts of the world. This starts to show in how many times they have tried to unroll stores across the USA and blanket it like the UK. They expand a bit, and then start retreating like the germans trying to take over russia in WW2.
In the UK, Magic the Gathering isn't as big. In the US it is huge, a behemoth that not only rivals GW at it's peak, but surpassed it years ago and has outsold any other game in history. Sales in 2012 were 25 million. Up over 20% in 2013 and more growth in 2014. 2015 is already big with ModernMasters2 leading the way. And while growth and profits are a great thing, lets look at some other things they do:
-Spent millions on a worldwide database of players and stores that is integrated with easy to use tournament software. Stores can enter players, hit a button and the software handles all pairings and at the end uploads info to wizards for player rankings.
-Supports thousands of tournaments each year with advertising and product support, up to national and world championships.
-Gives stores a large amount of freedom in running events and rewards those stores that give the most for their communities with more support from the company.
How i wish GW had done these things. Instead they now run zero events in the US.
This is why GW has competition from MTG. WOTC supports stores heavily. For this pre-release they'll send me many boxes of free packs to hand out as prizes, and the event is guaranteed profitable. It's advertised on their own websites and they drive players to stores. For many stores this is their main profit center. For 90% of stores it isn't even an option to choose whether to support MTG or GW, it's a no brainer. AoS will get chucked on a rack and they'll worry about it the next week.
In fact, every store may be doing just that. GW hasn't sent out demo sets for a long, long time. If they tell stores nothing until right before the release, and If we get in the games a day or two ahead of release, its a bit tough to get demo sets put together, and know enough about the game to run a demo or explain the rules. You will probably just see an open box and you can look at the sprues and thumb through a rulebook.
I wish Sigmar would just take a hammer to Kirby's head and then work his way down the company ladder until he find someone with a clue.
The main problem with GW is that they take a strange bullish pride in not listening to or engaging with the fanbase in any meaningful way, they have been the undisputed kings for so long that they take it for granted. Its only recently that any real competition has begun to emerge, we can only hope it motivates them to actually start giving a gak again.
Actually testing their rulesets before release would be a good start.
mikhaila wrote: Part of GW's problem is they base all decisions on the UK model. If they think it works there, they figure it works everywhere. They sort of forget the whole think about different cultures and countries 100 times as big. They also seem to ignore how marketing works differently in different parts of the world. This starts to show in how many times they have tried to unroll stores across the USA and blanket it like the UK. They expand a bit, and then start retreating like the germans trying to take over russia in WW2.
In the UK, Magic the Gathering isn't as big. In the US it is huge, a behemoth that not only rivals GW at it's peak, but surpassed it years ago and has outsold any other game in history. Sales in 2012 were 25 million. Up over 20% in 2013 and more growth in 2014. 2015 is already big with ModernMasters2 leading the way. And while growth and profits are a great thing, lets look at some other things they do:
-Spent millions on a worldwide database of players and stores that is integrated with easy to use tournament software. Stores can enter players, hit a button and the software handles all pairings and at the end uploads info to wizards for player rankings.
-Supports thousands of tournaments each year with advertising and product support, up to national and world championships.
-Gives stores a large amount of freedom in running events and rewards those stores that give the most for their communities with more support from the company.
How i wish GW had done these things. Instead they now run zero events in the US.
This is why GW has competition from MTG. WOTC supports stores heavily. For this pre-release they'll send me many boxes of free packs to hand out as prizes, and the event is guaranteed profitable. It's advertised on their own websites and they drive players to stores. For many stores this is their main profit center. For 90% of stores it isn't even an option to choose whether to support MTG or GW, it's a no brainer. AoS will get chucked on a rack and they'll worry about it the next week.
In fact, every store may be doing just that. GW hasn't sent out demo sets for a long, long time. If they tell stores nothing until right before the release, and If we get in the games a day or two ahead of release, its a bit tough to get demo sets put together, and know enough about the game to run a demo or explain the rules. You will probably just see an open box and you can look at the sprues and thumb through a rulebook.
I wish Sigmar would just take a hammer to Kirby's head and then work his way down the company ladder until he find someone with a clue.
A sobering and excellent post and just shows the sheer cluelessness of the leadership. To get something basic so utterly wrong beggars belief. Also, this:
-Spent millions on a worldwide database of players and stores that is integrated with easy to use tournament software. Stores can enter players, hit a button and the software handles all pairings and at the end uploads info to wizards for player rankings.
-Supports thousands of tournaments each year with advertising and product support, up to national and world championships.
-Gives stores a large amount of freedom in running events and rewards those stores that give the most for their communities with more support from the company.
Imagine if GW did something like this along with a list of regularly updated FAQ's and recognised rules sources. Imagine how they'd be as an industry player and what the global "Eye of Terror" style campaigns would be like.
According to Motley Fool in 2014, MtG's direct revenue was around $250,000,000.00. Keep in mind, this is when their primary sales item is a pack of cards that sells for less than $5.00.
"Over the last five years, the Magic brand has grown annual revenue by 182%. That puts the brand's annual revenue somewhere close to $250 million, though Hasbro hasn't released an official figure."
-Spent millions on a worldwide database of players and stores that is integrated with easy to use tournament software. Stores can enter players, hit a button and the software handles all pairings and at the end uploads info to wizards for player rankings.
-Supports thousands of tournaments each year with advertising and product support, up to national and world championships.
-Gives stores a large amount of freedom in running events and rewards those stores that give the most for their communities with more support from the company.
Imagine if GW did something like this along with a list of regularly updated FAQ's and recognised rules sources. Imagine how they'd be as an industry player and what the global "Eye of Terror" style campaigns would be like.
If they invested the same amount of money that WotC invests on MTG, Warhammer/AoS would be a giant...
This way, is just an ant... Ok... Maybe an hamster...
MTG has a great business due to the creation of mythic cards, the ideas of planeswalkers and all the formats we can play (from pro tours qualifications, to national championship to even pauper).
And the singles that are sold at a HUGE price in the player market is a huge thing... There are individuals making a lot of money only on these sales... I used to spent 300 euros for month on MtG... This is a reason why I went back to Warhammer... I just need to update on new things every few years, instead of every three months :p
Just going back to the topic of rumours concerning Age of Sigmar, I saw this on Faet and it sounds both a lot better and a lot more realistic/likely than the text block about Nigmos we've been arguing over:
We have seen a lot of information come through, and I have held a lot as well that came in to me directly, simply because I think there was a lot of guessing and reverb going on. Today I believe we may have a decent look at just what this game will be about, and a run down on some basics of game play and the feel of the game.
Please take this right now as rumor.
via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I think players should be doing a bit more to give current players more info,
but as they don't seem to want to do that, I thought I'd weigh in with what
I know.
I had to be taught how the new game works in order to
teach it to potential players.
As this info comes from the intro game there may be some simplification of
the rules that I am unaware of, as you don't want to overload a newbie with
too much info.
Anyway, on with what I know:
Age of Sigmar offers a skirmish-level fantasy game, he did not know
whether it would be expanded to a mass-battle game later but he thought it
would.
Players take control over several small units, organised into loose groups.
The models are on round bases. He mentioned that at least at our location,
people can use square bases if they want to, in fact with the new
unit formation rules it might be slightly easier to use squares.
Units can choose how loose their units form up, either very loose (think
8th ed skirmisher loose) with benefits to movement and defense against
shooting, tight, or square.
Tight allows for more maneuvers than square, but is less maneuverable than
loose. However, if you receive a charge in tight formation you're better
off in CC than if you received it in Skirmish.
Square offers almost no maneuverability, you can only move slowly forward.
However, if you receive a charge in Square formation then you're better off
in CC than if you received it in Tight or Skirmish formation.
One of the units in the intro game (the Chosen of Sigmar) can elect to
change their formation when someone declares a charge against them as long
as they pass a Ld check (base Ld 8 so it's fairly easy, hero had Ld 9)
The only real benefit to receiving a charge in Skirmish formation (and
there are a ton of negatives - you don't get a bonus from your numbers,
only the models in base contact with the enemy can strike (see below), and
you can't parry) is that the enemy don't get the bonus for charging you in
your flank/rear, since the skirmish formation means you effectively don't
have any.
A lot of the base rules are the same as in 8th ed fantasy. The same
statline is there (M, WS, BS etc etc), armour works the same, shooting
takes similar penalties (long range, soft cover, shooting at skirmishers
etc), the difference is in the recommended level of play. CC works out in
much the same way, highest I goes first, units in base contact with either
an enemy model or a friendly model in base contact with an enemy model get
to strike, though only the former get to use all their attacks. Casualties
are removed from the back, as per usual. Different kinds of weapons
(halberds, spears, etc) and their associated bonuses weren't brought up
since the models involved only used hand weapons. Hand weapon + shield
still gives you a parry save though, as long as you received a charge (or
charged yourself) in tight or square formation, and the attacks weren't
coming from your flanks or rear.
GW is trying to push this to be played at the 1000-1500pt level. A lot of
focus was put on the heroes leading each force, and leaders will have more
impact on the game. Think LotR Strategy Battle Game and its Warband rules.
He implied that leaders in general will be more expensive, but have
more of an impact on the game. So a 1000pt force might be led by a 300pt
hero who is absolutely the core of the force, and if they die the rest of
the force is at a severe disadvantage. This goes double if the leader is
killed in a challenge by the enemy leader.
On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different
types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't
exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking. Do you start in
skirmish formation for more maneuverability, risking getting charged with
no bonuses from your numbers? Or do you form up Tight and split the
difference? Or do you make like a Dwarf and form up Square and just risk
getting outflanked? Also, when the two leaders got into a challenge in the
middle it was exciting - mine was faster but not as strong, hers was slower
but more likely to do lasting damage. We stopped before one leader killed
the other though.
Magic wasn't raised in the intro game, but once again I was told
it hasn't hugely changed. Only thing I should mention is that,
aside from some notable exceptions, wizards can't be leaders of a force.
On a background note - I was laughed at for about 10 straight minutes
when I told her about the rumours of "Waaaghkin" led by an all-female caste
of "Nigmos", though he was strangely silent when I mentioned Regalia.
From what little he did mention, the core races are all-but unchanged in their
basic background. Humanity is represented by the Empire, with the Chosen of
Sigmar being an auxiliary detachment that is often fielded alongside Empire
forces. Orcs and Goblins are there, nothing about 'Nigmos' or whatever.
Chaos is obviously there, in both Daemon and Warrior form, he didn't know
anything about Beastmen. Lizardmen weren't mentioned, neither were Skaven,
Elves were though. Elves are becoming a bit more like Space Marines in one
specific aspect - they're all one race, but differentiated on the grounds
of how they wage war, a bit like Chapter Tactics. High Elves will have 'Elf
Tactics' that reflect their training and drilling, Dark Elves will
have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their cruelty and malice, and Wood Elves
will have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their reliance on hit-and-run attacks.
I anticipate this means a single Elf book with basic troop units, some
specific units for each type of Elf, and the rest of the differences will
be in these 'Elf Tactics' and colour scheme etc.
I'm trying to remember anything else, the units were about 10-15 models
each. The Chaos forces were comprised of a unit of 10 warriors, 15
marauders, 5 warhounds, and the chaos leader. The Chosen of Sigmar (being
represented by Lizardmen models as the actual models are obviously
currently unavailable) had 15 'warriors of light', 10 'hunters' with
shortbows, and 10 'chosen', plus the leader.
It seemed a little unbalanced
in the Chosen's favour, but my manager said that when you're introducing
people to the game, although you let them pick, you talk up the Chosen more
so that they're more likely to pick them and be the good guy. That way,
although it looks fairly even, the Chosen have an advantage. Like other
intro games that have come before it, it is intended to provide 2 good,
though small, starting forces.
It was implied that both armies would
need 2-3 boxes of troops added to them to get them to 'average game' size.
This was obviously important because a key part of the intro game is not
only selling the intro box, but also upselling the customer to get a couple
more boxes for a bigger force.
Stat-line wise, though I wasn't told any specifics (this was more a matter
of 'Okay so the Warriors of Light are in close combat with the Marauders,
so you go first and hit on...') regarding statlines, this is a rough
breakdown:
- Warriors of Light are a halfway point between marauders and Chaos
Warriors, not as tough or as well armoured, but more skilled than
marauders, they were hitting marauders on 3s and saving wounds on a 4+
- Chosen are basically Chaos Warriors, same armour save, they were hit on a
4+ and wounded on a 4+ by Chaos Warriors, saving on a 4+
- Hunters are skirmishing bowmen, their only unique aspect is that I think
their bows are armour piercing. They were hitting stuff at long range
(range 24") on 5s, wounding Chaos Warriors on 5s, but Chaos Warriors with
shields were only saving on a 4+, instead of the 3+ they were saving on
against the Hunters in close combat.
- Leader of the Chosen was basically the Chosen's statline with +1 to
everything except Movement and Toughness. He had a sword that allowed him
to re-roll failed hits against Chaos things.
I am using the current statlines for Chaos Warriors, Marauders etc in these
estimations, and they are liable to change.
Anyway, that's all I can remember. I hope this is informative!
I've actually been fairly apathetic about Age of Sigmar (just because of the uncertainty) and was prepared to just stick to 6th edition in my closed gaming group, but this actually has enough potential to get me just a tiny bit excited. Maybe we'll end up using Age of Sigmar after all.
-Spent millions on a worldwide database of players and stores that is integrated with easy to use tournament software. Stores can enter players, hit a button and the software handles all pairings and at the end uploads info to wizards for player rankings.
-Supports thousands of tournaments each year with advertising and product support, up to national and world championships.
-Gives stores a large amount of freedom in running events and rewards those stores that give the most for their communities with more support from the company.
Imagine if GW did something like this along with a list of regularly updated FAQ's and recognised rules sources. Imagine how they'd be as an industry player and what the global "Eye of Terror" style campaigns would be like.
To go down the same road, imagine if GW developers were willing to engage with the community online like M:TG does. Their lead designer is active on Twitter, his own blog, and an official M:TG design blog. Just try to imagine a GW rules developer ever writing a column like this about army building: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/303
I actually had to google mtg thing to find out what it was lol. The closest gw store is one hour away. Closest store to buy mtg is 3 hours away so gw wins here
Editing here tablet submitted rather then jumped a line
For me it come to owning something i can show off use and feel like i own something. Gw gives me a model of varying sizes ect. Where as a pretty picture on a piece of paper give me very little. So a card game vs the item is one sidded.
Would you buy a oicture of a car for 20 bucks or buy the car for 20k. You can buy alot of picture for the same price but seems like a ripoff somehow.
NWansbutter wrote: Just going back to the topic of rumours concerning Age of Sigmar, I saw this on Faet and it sounds both a lot better and a lot more realistic/likely than the text block about Nigmos we've been arguing over:
We have seen a lot of information come through, and I have held a lot as well that came in to me directly, simply because I think there was a lot of guessing and reverb going on. Today I believe we may have a decent look at just what this game will be about, and a run down on some basics of game play and the feel of the game.
Please take this right now as rumor.
via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I think players should be doing a bit more to give current players more info,
but as they don't seem to want to do that, I thought I'd weigh in with what
I know.
I had to be taught how the new game works in order to
teach it to potential players.
As this info comes from the intro game there may be some simplification of
the rules that I am unaware of, as you don't want to overload a newbie with
too much info.
Anyway, on with what I know:
Age of Sigmar offers a skirmish-level fantasy game, he did not know
whether it would be expanded to a mass-battle game later but he thought it
would.
Players take control over several small units, organised into loose groups.
The models are on round bases. He mentioned that at least at our location,
people can use square bases if they want to, in fact with the new
unit formation rules it might be slightly easier to use squares.
Units can choose how loose their units form up, either very loose (think
8th ed skirmisher loose) with benefits to movement and defense against
shooting, tight, or square.
Tight allows for more maneuvers than square, but is less maneuverable than
loose. However, if you receive a charge in tight formation you're better
off in CC than if you received it in Skirmish.
Square offers almost no maneuverability, you can only move slowly forward.
However, if you receive a charge in Square formation then you're better off
in CC than if you received it in Tight or Skirmish formation.
One of the units in the intro game (the Chosen of Sigmar) can elect to
change their formation when someone declares a charge against them as long
as they pass a Ld check (base Ld 8 so it's fairly easy, hero had Ld 9)
The only real benefit to receiving a charge in Skirmish formation (and
there are a ton of negatives - you don't get a bonus from your numbers,
only the models in base contact with the enemy can strike (see below), and
you can't parry) is that the enemy don't get the bonus for charging you in
your flank/rear, since the skirmish formation means you effectively don't
have any.
A lot of the base rules are the same as in 8th ed fantasy. The same
statline is there (M, WS, BS etc etc), armour works the same, shooting
takes similar penalties (long range, soft cover, shooting at skirmishers
etc), the difference is in the recommended level of play. CC works out in
much the same way, highest I goes first, units in base contact with either
an enemy model or a friendly model in base contact with an enemy model get
to strike, though only the former get to use all their attacks. Casualties
are removed from the back, as per usual. Different kinds of weapons
(halberds, spears, etc) and their associated bonuses weren't brought up
since the models involved only used hand weapons. Hand weapon + shield
still gives you a parry save though, as long as you received a charge (or
charged yourself) in tight or square formation, and the attacks weren't
coming from your flanks or rear.
GW is trying to push this to be played at the 1000-1500pt level. A lot of
focus was put on the heroes leading each force, and leaders will have more
impact on the game. Think LotR Strategy Battle Game and its Warband rules.
He implied that leaders in general will be more expensive, but have
more of an impact on the game. So a 1000pt force might be led by a 300pt
hero who is absolutely the core of the force, and if they die the rest of
the force is at a severe disadvantage. This goes double if the leader is
killed in a challenge by the enemy leader.
On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different
types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't
exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking. Do you start in
skirmish formation for more maneuverability, risking getting charged with
no bonuses from your numbers? Or do you form up Tight and split the
difference? Or do you make like a Dwarf and form up Square and just risk
getting outflanked? Also, when the two leaders got into a challenge in the
middle it was exciting - mine was faster but not as strong, hers was slower
but more likely to do lasting damage. We stopped before one leader killed
the other though.
Magic wasn't raised in the intro game, but once again I was told
it hasn't hugely changed. Only thing I should mention is that,
aside from some notable exceptions, wizards can't be leaders of a force.
On a background note - I was laughed at for about 10 straight minutes
when I told her about the rumours of "Waaaghkin" led by an all-female caste
of "Nigmos", though he was strangely silent when I mentioned Regalia.
From what little he did mention, the core races are all-but unchanged in their
basic background. Humanity is represented by the Empire, with the Chosen of
Sigmar being an auxiliary detachment that is often fielded alongside Empire
forces. Orcs and Goblins are there, nothing about 'Nigmos' or whatever.
Chaos is obviously there, in both Daemon and Warrior form, he didn't know
anything about Beastmen. Lizardmen weren't mentioned, neither were Skaven,
Elves were though. Elves are becoming a bit more like Space Marines in one
specific aspect - they're all one race, but differentiated on the grounds
of how they wage war, a bit like Chapter Tactics. High Elves will have 'Elf
Tactics' that reflect their training and drilling, Dark Elves will
have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their cruelty and malice, and Wood Elves
will have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their reliance on hit-and-run attacks.
I anticipate this means a single Elf book with basic troop units, some
specific units for each type of Elf, and the rest of the differences will
be in these 'Elf Tactics' and colour scheme etc.
I'm trying to remember anything else, the units were about 10-15 models
each. The Chaos forces were comprised of a unit of 10 warriors, 15
marauders, 5 warhounds, and the chaos leader. The Chosen of Sigmar (being
represented by Lizardmen models as the actual models are obviously
currently unavailable) had 15 'warriors of light', 10 'hunters' with
shortbows, and 10 'chosen', plus the leader.
It seemed a little unbalanced
in the Chosen's favour, but my manager said that when you're introducing
people to the game, although you let them pick, you talk up the Chosen more
so that they're more likely to pick them and be the good guy. That way,
although it looks fairly even, the Chosen have an advantage. Like other
intro games that have come before it, it is intended to provide 2 good,
though small, starting forces.
It was implied that both armies would
need 2-3 boxes of troops added to them to get them to 'average game' size.
This was obviously important because a key part of the intro game is not
only selling the intro box, but also upselling the customer to get a couple
more boxes for a bigger force.
Stat-line wise, though I wasn't told any specifics (this was more a matter
of 'Okay so the Warriors of Light are in close combat with the Marauders,
so you go first and hit on...') regarding statlines, this is a rough
breakdown:
- Warriors of Light are a halfway point between marauders and Chaos
Warriors, not as tough or as well armoured, but more skilled than
marauders, they were hitting marauders on 3s and saving wounds on a 4+
- Chosen are basically Chaos Warriors, same armour save, they were hit on a
4+ and wounded on a 4+ by Chaos Warriors, saving on a 4+
- Hunters are skirmishing bowmen, their only unique aspect is that I think
their bows are armour piercing. They were hitting stuff at long range
(range 24") on 5s, wounding Chaos Warriors on 5s, but Chaos Warriors with
shields were only saving on a 4+, instead of the 3+ they were saving on
against the Hunters in close combat.
- Leader of the Chosen was basically the Chosen's statline with +1 to
everything except Movement and Toughness. He had a sword that allowed him
to re-roll failed hits against Chaos things.
I am using the current statlines for Chaos Warriors, Marauders etc in these
estimations, and they are liable to change.
Anyway, that's all I can remember. I hope this is informative!
I've actually been fairly apathetic about Age of Sigmar (just because of the uncertainty) and was prepared to just stick to 6th edition in my closed gaming group, but this actually has enough potential to get me just a tiny bit excited. Maybe we'll end up using Age of Sigmar after all.
This sounds like something I would actually be pretty interested in playing. And the described army sizes would allow me to field a huge variety of armies, since I have collected models from a few different armies over time while focusing on building one large (High Elf) force for active play. Cautiously excited.
guru wrote: Today the rep have indicated that between 26 to 29 June will give us all the information about Age of Sigmar necessary to meet the launch event.
NWansbutter wrote: Just going back to the topic of rumours concerning Age of Sigmar, I saw this on Faet and it sounds both a lot better and a lot more realistic/likely than the text block about Nigmos we've been arguing over:
We have seen a lot of information come through, and I have held a lot as well that came in to me directly, simply because I think there was a lot of guessing and reverb going on. Today I believe we may have a decent look at just what this game will be about, and a run down on some basics of game play and the feel of the game.
Please take this right now as rumor.
via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I think players should be doing a bit more to give current players more info,
but as they don't seem to want to do that, I thought I'd weigh in with what
I know.
I had to be taught how the new game works in order to
teach it to potential players.
As this info comes from the intro game there may be some simplification of
the rules that I am unaware of, as you don't want to overload a newbie with
too much info.
Anyway, on with what I know:
Age of Sigmar offers a skirmish-level fantasy game, he did not know
whether it would be expanded to a mass-battle game later but he thought it
would.
Players take control over several small units, organised into loose groups.
The models are on round bases. He mentioned that at least at our location,
people can use square bases if they want to, in fact with the new
unit formation rules it might be slightly easier to use squares.
Units can choose how loose their units form up, either very loose (think
8th ed skirmisher loose) with benefits to movement and defense against
shooting, tight, or square.
Tight allows for more maneuvers than square, but is less maneuverable than
loose. However, if you receive a charge in tight formation you're better
off in CC than if you received it in Skirmish.
Square offers almost no maneuverability, you can only move slowly forward.
However, if you receive a charge in Square formation then you're better off
in CC than if you received it in Tight or Skirmish formation.
One of the units in the intro game (the Chosen of Sigmar) can elect to
change their formation when someone declares a charge against them as long
as they pass a Ld check (base Ld 8 so it's fairly easy, hero had Ld 9)
The only real benefit to receiving a charge in Skirmish formation (and
there are a ton of negatives - you don't get a bonus from your numbers,
only the models in base contact with the enemy can strike (see below), and
you can't parry) is that the enemy don't get the bonus for charging you in
your flank/rear, since the skirmish formation means you effectively don't
have any.
A lot of the base rules are the same as in 8th ed fantasy. The same
statline is there (M, WS, BS etc etc), armour works the same, shooting
takes similar penalties (long range, soft cover, shooting at skirmishers
etc), the difference is in the recommended level of play. CC works out in
much the same way, highest I goes first, units in base contact with either
an enemy model or a friendly model in base contact with an enemy model get
to strike, though only the former get to use all their attacks. Casualties
are removed from the back, as per usual. Different kinds of weapons
(halberds, spears, etc) and their associated bonuses weren't brought up
since the models involved only used hand weapons. Hand weapon + shield
still gives you a parry save though, as long as you received a charge (or
charged yourself) in tight or square formation, and the attacks weren't
coming from your flanks or rear.
GW is trying to push this to be played at the 1000-1500pt level. A lot of
focus was put on the heroes leading each force, and leaders will have more
impact on the game. Think LotR Strategy Battle Game and its Warband rules.
He implied that leaders in general will be more expensive, but have
more of an impact on the game. So a 1000pt force might be led by a 300pt
hero who is absolutely the core of the force, and if they die the rest of
the force is at a severe disadvantage. This goes double if the leader is
killed in a challenge by the enemy leader.
On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different
types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't
exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking. Do you start in
skirmish formation for more maneuverability, risking getting charged with
no bonuses from your numbers? Or do you form up Tight and split the
difference? Or do you make like a Dwarf and form up Square and just risk
getting outflanked? Also, when the two leaders got into a challenge in the
middle it was exciting - mine was faster but not as strong, hers was slower
but more likely to do lasting damage. We stopped before one leader killed
the other though.
Magic wasn't raised in the intro game, but once again I was told
it hasn't hugely changed. Only thing I should mention is that,
aside from some notable exceptions, wizards can't be leaders of a force.
On a background note - I was laughed at for about 10 straight minutes
when I told her about the rumours of "Waaaghkin" led by an all-female caste
of "Nigmos", though he was strangely silent when I mentioned Regalia.
From what little he did mention, the core races are all-but unchanged in their
basic background. Humanity is represented by the Empire, with the Chosen of
Sigmar being an auxiliary detachment that is often fielded alongside Empire
forces. Orcs and Goblins are there, nothing about 'Nigmos' or whatever.
Chaos is obviously there, in both Daemon and Warrior form, he didn't know
anything about Beastmen. Lizardmen weren't mentioned, neither were Skaven,
Elves were though. Elves are becoming a bit more like Space Marines in one
specific aspect - they're all one race, but differentiated on the grounds
of how they wage war, a bit like Chapter Tactics. High Elves will have 'Elf
Tactics' that reflect their training and drilling, Dark Elves will
have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their cruelty and malice, and Wood Elves
will have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their reliance on hit-and-run attacks.
I anticipate this means a single Elf book with basic troop units, some
specific units for each type of Elf, and the rest of the differences will
be in these 'Elf Tactics' and colour scheme etc.
I'm trying to remember anything else, the units were about 10-15 models
each. The Chaos forces were comprised of a unit of 10 warriors, 15
marauders, 5 warhounds, and the chaos leader. The Chosen of Sigmar (being
represented by Lizardmen models as the actual models are obviously
currently unavailable) had 15 'warriors of light', 10 'hunters' with
shortbows, and 10 'chosen', plus the leader.
It seemed a little unbalanced
in the Chosen's favour, but my manager said that when you're introducing
people to the game, although you let them pick, you talk up the Chosen more
so that they're more likely to pick them and be the good guy. That way,
although it looks fairly even, the Chosen have an advantage. Like other
intro games that have come before it, it is intended to provide 2 good,
though small, starting forces.
It was implied that both armies would
need 2-3 boxes of troops added to them to get them to 'average game' size.
This was obviously important because a key part of the intro game is not
only selling the intro box, but also upselling the customer to get a couple
more boxes for a bigger force.
Stat-line wise, though I wasn't told any specifics (this was more a matter
of 'Okay so the Warriors of Light are in close combat with the Marauders,
so you go first and hit on...') regarding statlines, this is a rough
breakdown:
- Warriors of Light are a halfway point between marauders and Chaos
Warriors, not as tough or as well armoured, but more skilled than
marauders, they were hitting marauders on 3s and saving wounds on a 4+
- Chosen are basically Chaos Warriors, same armour save, they were hit on a
4+ and wounded on a 4+ by Chaos Warriors, saving on a 4+
- Hunters are skirmishing bowmen, their only unique aspect is that I think
their bows are armour piercing. They were hitting stuff at long range
(range 24") on 5s, wounding Chaos Warriors on 5s, but Chaos Warriors with
shields were only saving on a 4+, instead of the 3+ they were saving on
against the Hunters in close combat.
- Leader of the Chosen was basically the Chosen's statline with +1 to
everything except Movement and Toughness. He had a sword that allowed him
to re-roll failed hits against Chaos things.
I am using the current statlines for Chaos Warriors, Marauders etc in these
estimations, and they are liable to change.
Anyway, that's all I can remember. I hope this is informative!
I've actually been fairly apathetic about Age of Sigmar (just because of the uncertainty) and was prepared to just stick to 6th edition in my closed gaming group, but this actually has enough potential to get me just a tiny bit excited. Maybe we'll end up using Age of Sigmar after all.
This all sounds a bit more believable, though disappointed that the rules haven't changed that much.
Yeah, that sounds more believable. So it's basically 40k with fantasy models on round bases and 1" coherency. My brother and I will stick with 8th as planned.
NWansbutter wrote: Just going back to the topic of rumours concerning Age of Sigmar, I saw this on Faet and it sounds both a lot better and a lot more realistic/likely than the text block about Nigmos we've been arguing over:
We have seen a lot of information come through, and I have held a lot as well that came in to me directly, simply because I think there was a lot of guessing and reverb going on. Today I believe we may have a decent look at just what this game will be about, and a run down on some basics of game play and the feel of the game.
Please take this right now as rumor.
via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I think players should be doing a bit more to give current players more info,
but as they don't seem to want to do that, I thought I'd weigh in with what
I know.
I had to be taught how the new game works in order to
teach it to potential players.
As this info comes from the intro game there may be some simplification of
the rules that I am unaware of, as you don't want to overload a newbie with
too much info.
Anyway, on with what I know:
Age of Sigmar offers a skirmish-level fantasy game, he did not know
whether it would be expanded to a mass-battle game later but he thought it
would.
Players take control over several small units, organised into loose groups.
The models are on round bases. He mentioned that at least at our location,
people can use square bases if they want to, in fact with the new
unit formation rules it might be slightly easier to use squares.
Units can choose how loose their units form up, either very loose (think
8th ed skirmisher loose) with benefits to movement and defense against
shooting, tight, or square.
Tight allows for more maneuvers than square, but is less maneuverable than
loose. However, if you receive a charge in tight formation you're better
off in CC than if you received it in Skirmish.
Square offers almost no maneuverability, you can only move slowly forward.
However, if you receive a charge in Square formation then you're better off
in CC than if you received it in Tight or Skirmish formation.
One of the units in the intro game (the Chosen of Sigmar) can elect to
change their formation when someone declares a charge against them as long
as they pass a Ld check (base Ld 8 so it's fairly easy, hero had Ld 9)
The only real benefit to receiving a charge in Skirmish formation (and
there are a ton of negatives - you don't get a bonus from your numbers,
only the models in base contact with the enemy can strike (see below), and
you can't parry) is that the enemy don't get the bonus for charging you in
your flank/rear, since the skirmish formation means you effectively don't
have any.
A lot of the base rules are the same as in 8th ed fantasy. The same
statline is there (M, WS, BS etc etc), armour works the same, shooting
takes similar penalties (long range, soft cover, shooting at skirmishers
etc), the difference is in the recommended level of play. CC works out in
much the same way, highest I goes first, units in base contact with either
an enemy model or a friendly model in base contact with an enemy model get
to strike, though only the former get to use all their attacks. Casualties
are removed from the back, as per usual. Different kinds of weapons
(halberds, spears, etc) and their associated bonuses weren't brought up
since the models involved only used hand weapons. Hand weapon + shield
still gives you a parry save though, as long as you received a charge (or
charged yourself) in tight or square formation, and the attacks weren't
coming from your flanks or rear.
GW is trying to push this to be played at the 1000-1500pt level. A lot of
focus was put on the heroes leading each force, and leaders will have more
impact on the game. Think LotR Strategy Battle Game and its Warband rules.
He implied that leaders in general will be more expensive, but have
more of an impact on the game. So a 1000pt force might be led by a 300pt
hero who is absolutely the core of the force, and if they die the rest of
the force is at a severe disadvantage. This goes double if the leader is
killed in a challenge by the enemy leader.
On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different
types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't
exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking. Do you start in
skirmish formation for more maneuverability, risking getting charged with
no bonuses from your numbers? Or do you form up Tight and split the
difference? Or do you make like a Dwarf and form up Square and just risk
getting outflanked? Also, when the two leaders got into a challenge in the
middle it was exciting - mine was faster but not as strong, hers was slower
but more likely to do lasting damage. We stopped before one leader killed
the other though.
Magic wasn't raised in the intro game, but once again I was told
it hasn't hugely changed. Only thing I should mention is that,
aside from some notable exceptions, wizards can't be leaders of a force.
On a background note - I was laughed at for about 10 straight minutes
when I told her about the rumours of "Waaaghkin" led by an all-female caste
of "Nigmos", though he was strangely silent when I mentioned Regalia.
From what little he did mention, the core races are all-but unchanged in their
basic background. Humanity is represented by the Empire, with the Chosen of
Sigmar being an auxiliary detachment that is often fielded alongside Empire
forces. Orcs and Goblins are there, nothing about 'Nigmos' or whatever.
Chaos is obviously there, in both Daemon and Warrior form, he didn't know
anything about Beastmen. Lizardmen weren't mentioned, neither were Skaven,
Elves were though. Elves are becoming a bit more like Space Marines in one
specific aspect - they're all one race, but differentiated on the grounds
of how they wage war, a bit like Chapter Tactics. High Elves will have 'Elf
Tactics' that reflect their training and drilling, Dark Elves will
have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their cruelty and malice, and Wood Elves
will have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their reliance on hit-and-run attacks.
I anticipate this means a single Elf book with basic troop units, some
specific units for each type of Elf, and the rest of the differences will
be in these 'Elf Tactics' and colour scheme etc.
I'm trying to remember anything else, the units were about 10-15 models
each. The Chaos forces were comprised of a unit of 10 warriors, 15
marauders, 5 warhounds, and the chaos leader. The Chosen of Sigmar (being
represented by Lizardmen models as the actual models are obviously
currently unavailable) had 15 'warriors of light', 10 'hunters' with
shortbows, and 10 'chosen', plus the leader.
It seemed a little unbalanced
in the Chosen's favour, but my manager said that when you're introducing
people to the game, although you let them pick, you talk up the Chosen more
so that they're more likely to pick them and be the good guy. That way,
although it looks fairly even, the Chosen have an advantage. Like other
intro games that have come before it, it is intended to provide 2 good,
though small, starting forces.
It was implied that both armies would
need 2-3 boxes of troops added to them to get them to 'average game' size.
This was obviously important because a key part of the intro game is not
only selling the intro box, but also upselling the customer to get a couple
more boxes for a bigger force.
Stat-line wise, though I wasn't told any specifics (this was more a matter
of 'Okay so the Warriors of Light are in close combat with the Marauders,
so you go first and hit on...') regarding statlines, this is a rough
breakdown:
- Warriors of Light are a halfway point between marauders and Chaos
Warriors, not as tough or as well armoured, but more skilled than
marauders, they were hitting marauders on 3s and saving wounds on a 4+
- Chosen are basically Chaos Warriors, same armour save, they were hit on a
4+ and wounded on a 4+ by Chaos Warriors, saving on a 4+
- Hunters are skirmishing bowmen, their only unique aspect is that I think
their bows are armour piercing. They were hitting stuff at long range
(range 24") on 5s, wounding Chaos Warriors on 5s, but Chaos Warriors with
shields were only saving on a 4+, instead of the 3+ they were saving on
against the Hunters in close combat.
- Leader of the Chosen was basically the Chosen's statline with +1 to
everything except Movement and Toughness. He had a sword that allowed him
to re-roll failed hits against Chaos things.
I am using the current statlines for Chaos Warriors, Marauders etc in these
estimations, and they are liable to change.
Anyway, that's all I can remember. I hope this is informative!
I've actually been fairly apathetic about Age of Sigmar (just because of the uncertainty) and was prepared to just stick to 6th edition in my closed gaming group, but this actually has enough potential to get me just a tiny bit excited. Maybe we'll end up using Age of Sigmar after all.
This basically sounds like a mix of Warhammer Skirmish and the Warbands campaign from years back. Nothing sounds so earth shattering that it would deem all of the old books invalid on day 1.
Are we supposed to just accept skirmish as the only official way to play until they hopefully release rules for scaled up games?
Oryza Sativa wrote: This sounds like something I would actually be pretty interested in playing. And the described army sizes would allow me to field a huge variety of armies, since I have collected models from a few different armies over time while focusing on building one large (High Elf) force for active play. Cautiously excited.
While this doesn't really sound all that interesting to me yet, it does sound like a game called Warhammer that I have many figures for already and wouldn't mind trying out. As well as a decent base of rules to build up complexity upon.
Aerethan wrote: This basically sounds like a mix of Warhammer Skirmish and the Warbands campaign from years back. Nothing sounds so earth shattering that it would deem all of the old books invalid on day 1.
Are we supposed to just accept skirmish as the only official way to play until they hopefully release rules for scaled up games?
Point on the expectation of rules changes of such sweeping scale to invalidate all armybooks, though I expect faction shifts, changes to leaders and unit sizes are easily enough to need all new books.
I too am curious on the up-scaling. Perhaps it's the whole leader-based thing that's limiting the scale? Speaking of which, while it doesn't sound as auto-lose as WM/H, I know many an undead player who loooooooves them crumbling tests when their leader bites it ...
EDIT: Maybe I lied, this is pretty interesting. Take 8E, give everybody (maybe?) formation options, address the spell lores, slap around the factions, job's a good'un. Oh, and embrace herohammer more fully I guess? Because Epic.
Was the game played on a round table? did Units randomly float about in random directions? Those are the key rumors I would like verified. Randomly floating backwards of the table edge to have your unit removed... not fun.
That sounded like a scenario to me, so if you could verify thats not how the game is actually played, that would be cool.
mikhaila wrote: Part of GW's problem is they base all decisions on the UK model. If they think it works there, they figure it works everywhere. They sort of forget the whole think about different cultures and countries 100 times as big. They also seem to ignore how marketing works differently in different parts of the world. This starts to show in how many times they have tried to unroll stores across the USA and blanket it like the UK. They expand a bit, and then start retreating like the germans trying to take over russia in WW2.
In the UK, Magic the Gathering isn't as big. In the US it is huge, a behemoth that not only rivals GW at it's peak, but surpassed it years ago and has outsold any other game in history. Sales in 2012 were 25 million. Up over 20% in 2013 and more growth in 2014. 2015 is already big with ModernMasters2 leading the way. And while growth and profits are a great thing, lets look at some other things they do:
-Spent millions on a worldwide database of players and stores that is integrated with easy to use tournament software. Stores can enter players, hit a button and the software handles all pairings and at the end uploads info to wizards for player rankings.
-Supports thousands of tournaments each year with advertising and product support, up to national and world championships.
-Gives stores a large amount of freedom in running events and rewards those stores that give the most for their communities with more support from the company.
How i wish GW had done these things. Instead they now run zero events in the US.
This is why GW has competition from MTG. WOTC supports stores heavily. For this pre-release they'll send me many boxes of free packs to hand out as prizes, and the event is guaranteed profitable. It's advertised on their own websites and they drive players to stores. For many stores this is their main profit center. For 90% of stores it isn't even an option to choose whether to support MTG or GW, it's a no brainer. AoS will get chucked on a rack and they'll worry about it the next week.
In fact, every store may be doing just that. GW hasn't sent out demo sets for a long, long time. If they tell stores nothing until right before the release, and If we get in the games a day or two ahead of release, its a bit tough to get demo sets put together, and know enough about the game to run a demo or explain the rules. You will probably just see an open box and you can look at the sprues and thumb through a rulebook.
I wish Sigmar would just take a hammer to Kirby's head and then work his way down the company ladder until he find someone with a clue.
Can't believe I'm leaping to GW's defence
Some great points there and yes, GW need a foot up the backside when it comes supporting FLGS and community engagement
BUT MTG is a card game. It's easy to print off cards and fire them all over the country or set up a database, or play it online, like what I used to do. Hell, when it comes to playing the game, what do you need? A table and two players. It's a very low tech game, and a damn good one at that, I love the game.
GW's product is obviously miniatures. You'll know better than me, but getting terrain ready, getting enough tables, getting room for the tables painting minis etc etc is a lot harder than tearing open a booster pack and playing magic.
Like I say, GW can do a hell of a lot better, but it's slightly unfair to compare a card game, to a miniature game. If GW gave everybody samples on the scale of magic, they'd quickly go under. Platic minis being more valuable than printed cards.
zedmeister wrote: Magic, Big? You could say that. Magic single-handedly keeps many hobby and gaming stores in the black. If I ran a store and had to choose between a well publicised and well known about launch of Magic or a murky unknown in the form of Age of Sigmar, then Sigmar's going to be relegated to a handful of stock posters and a small display in the corner. Maybe a demo table if I had the room. Magic will be given centre stage as that's where the money and numbers lie. Plus, I'd know what to expect ahead of time, so can plan properly for it, make sure staff are about and are educated on what they need to know, arrange the store accordingly, get posters and flyers printed, take to the Internet, launch day promotions, etc etc etc.
The difference being that Hasbro / WotC is retailer-oriented; GW doesn't want retailers getting crumbs. GW is something that retail carries because there are still a bunch of 40k players that might come in, not something you actively want as a product line.
BUT MTG is a card game. It's easy to print off cards and fire them all over the country or set up a database, or play it online, like what I used to do. Hell, when it comes to playing the game, what do you need? A table and two players. It's a very low tech game, and a damn good one at that, I love the game.
GW's product is obviously miniatures. You'll know better than me, but getting terrain ready, getting enough tables, getting room for the tables painting minis etc etc is a lot harder than tearing open a booster pack and playing magic.
Yeah, it's cheaper to ship cards willy nilly across the country. If only there was an existing way that stores could sign up for a program (let's just call it a retailer account for example) where they'd regularly order product from that manufacturer direct and get in the vast majority of cases weekly LARGE shipments from them that those freebies could just be thrown in with instead of costing a whole separate shipping charge... if only!
As for terrain, I'm going to guess that the stores that would benefit from tourny support (like Mikhalia's) for GW games already have made the investments in stuff like tables and terrain. GW already vets stores for a proper retail presence either in person or electronically (pics, videos, and such) so making sure that the stores that would be receiving said tourny support actually could properly use it and qualify for it would be relatively trivial for a $100 million international company that is the current sales leader in the hobby niche. The problem is that there is no will to do so and they expect the money to flow in like a river regardless of how many beaver dams they put up voluntarily.
mikhaila wrote:WOTC supports stores heavily... they drive players to stores.
Blimey.
I wish Sigmar would just take a hammer to Kirby's head and then work his way down the company ladder until he find someone with a clue.
Spoiler:
"THEE! HAST THOU A CLUE?"
"I... er... I..."
"WRONG ANSWER!"
NWansbutter wrote:
Spoiler:
Players take control over several small units, organised into loose groups.
The models are on round bases. He mentioned that at least at our location,
people can use square bases if they want to, in fact with the new
unit formation rules it might be slightly easier to use squares.
Units can choose how loose their units form up, either very loose (think
8th ed skirmisher loose) with benefits to movement and defense against
shooting, tight, or square.
Tight allows for more maneuvers than square, but is less maneuverable than
loose. However, if you receive a charge in tight formation you're better
off in CC than if you received it in Skirmish.
Square offers almost no maneuverability, you can only move slowly forward.
However, if you receive a charge in Square formation then you're better off
in CC than if you received it in Tight or Skirmish formation.
One of the units in the intro game (the Chosen of Sigmar) can elect to
change their formation when someone declares a charge against them as long
as they pass a Ld check (base Ld 8 so it's fairly easy, hero had Ld 9)
The only real benefit to receiving a charge in Skirmish formation (and
there are a ton of negatives - you don't get a bonus from your numbers,
only the models in base contact with the enemy can strike (see below), and
you can't parry) is that the enemy don't get the bonus for charging you in
your flank/rear, since the skirmish formation means you effectively don't
have any.
On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different
types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't
exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking.
That sounds a lot like the close, open and skirmish order in a lot of other games, especially ancient-medieval historicals. In fact, it makes the game sound more and more like Foundry's God of Battles.
Spoiler:
in the Chosen's favour, but my manager said that when you're introducing
people to the game, although you let them pick, you talk up the Chosen more
so that they're more likely to pick them and be the good guy.
And that just sounds like he's talking to twelve-year-olds.
OgreChubbs wrote:I actually had to google mtg thing to find out what it was lol. The closest gw store is one hour away. Closest store to buy mtg is 3 hours away so gw wins here
I don't think you guys are going to be enough to save them.
BUT MTG is a card game. It's easy to print off cards and fire them all over the country or set up a database, or play it online, like what I used to do. Hell, when it comes to playing the game, what do you need? A table and two players. It's a very low tech game, and a damn good one at that, I love the game.
GW's product is obviously miniatures. You'll know better than me, but getting terrain ready, getting enough tables, getting room for the tables painting minis etc etc is a lot harder than tearing open a booster pack and playing magic.
Yeah, it's cheaper to ship cards willy nilly across the country. If only there was an existing way that stores could sign up for a program (let's just call it a retailer account for example) where they'd regularly order product from that manufacturer direct and get in the vast majority of cases weekly LARGE shipments from them that those freebies could just be thrown in with instead of costing a whole separate shipping charge... if only!
As for terrain, I'm going to guess that the stores that would benefit from tourny support (like Mikhalia's) for GW games already have made the investments in stuff like tables and terrain. GW already vets stores for a proper retail presence either in person or electronically (pics, videos, and such) so making sure that the stores that would be receiving said tourny support actually could properly use it and qualify for it would be relatively trivial for a $100 million international company that is the current sales leader in the hobby niche. The problem is that there is no will to do so and they expect the money to flow in like a river regardless of how many beaver dams they put up voluntarily.
It's been a long time since GW were a $100 million dollar company. Even Tom Kirby probably wouldn't go that far
Good points, but I think it's still easier for WOTC to outgun GW, simply because cards are cheaper than plastic minis, and there's a bigger profit margin for WOTC.
WOTC 'driving' players to stores is not literal. They don't transport them to the stores. They drive as in 'direct' them to stores and events by having info easily and prominently displayed on their sites, via posters at stores, etc.
PS - Unless WOTC really has started chauffeuring and I missed it
According to Motley Fool in 2014, MtG's direct revenue was around $250,000,000.00. Keep in mind, this is when their primary sales item is a pack of cards that sells for less than $5.00.
"Over the last five years, the Magic brand has grown annual revenue by 182%. That puts the brand's annual revenue somewhere close to $250 million, though Hasbro hasn't released an official figure."
It's also far more mainstream. Feth, it's even been featured on Big Bang Theory at least 3 times (I don't know about the US, but BBT is on UK TV at least 4 episodes a day, every day).
Yes clearly when all the rumors sound like a joke its easy to distinguish between them. Would be nice if people would just post real rumors than wouldn't it...
The rumours that sound most like jokes tend to be the ones that turn out to be true, though.
OgreChubbs wrote: I actually had to google mtg thing to find out what it was lol. The closest gw store is one hour away. Closest store to buy mtg is 3 hours away so gw wins here
All the large bookstores (Waterstones etc) and all but the smallest comic stores in the UK sell MtG packs. It's easily the most accesible 'geek' game on the market, and 'geek' is currently pretty in. I wouldn't be surprised if some newsagents even have packs.
To be fair, you don't need much shelf space to stock MtG, just have an open box near the register and it'll pretty much sell itself.
Chopxsticks wrote: Yes clearly when all the rumors sound like a joke its easy to distinguish between them. Would be nice if people would just post real rumors than wouldn't it...
Problem is, the rumours are pretty scant. Naturally, people are getting bored and start to make merry at GWs expense...
Bottle wrote: The new rumours sound nice. So will I be able to make a "square" formation with circle bases???????
And as long as my Empire aren't ghost units I have to summon from another plane, I'm happy.
I'm wondering (assuming that rumor specifically is true) if you don't need counters to show what each unit is doing formation-wise each turn.
Such counters would obviously be available in army specific patterns sold in limited edition tins and later as generic ones.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Good points, but I think it's still easier for WOTC to outgun GW, simply because cards are cheaper than plastic minis, and there's a bigger profit margin for WOTC.
It's not about shipping or production or anything like that, though. It's about getting people into stores and buying product that has been shipped and produced.
I've watched my FLGS manager work pre-release events. I like the guy, but he's a bit lazy and a "wouldn't running a game store be fun?" sort more than a business savvy sort.
Yet, the pre-release events pack the card-flopper stink pit. There's so many players that the game rooms are 5-10 degrees warmer than the rest of the store due to the sheer number of close-packed bodies. And each one of them drops a big chunk of change in addition to the entry fee.
This happens because WotC practically holds his hand through the entire process. He gets informed of the date and the requirements months in advance, along with a small advertisement pack with posters and such to hang in the game rooms. He receives documentation telling him how to easily run the event and what will be expected of him. There is DCI software to pretty much automate the tally-keeping. There are DCI approved judges to officiate and often times work the software for him. The event cards plus a hefty amount of stock comes in as one giant pre-order shipment several days in advance - it typically fills up a large roller cart, being about the size of the weekly GW orders back in the late-90's early 2000's heyday of GW games locally. He usually sells out of it all the day of the event.
Basically, his sales rep tells him what he needs to do, sends him packet material in advance to advertise and prepare for his part, DCI judges clamor to help him run the event, then one Saturday 100+ card floppers descend on the store, everyone else stays the hell away from the place, and he stands behind the counter and equals his sales for the rest of the month. All because WotC is determined to get people into his store to play their game and buy their product - so they make sure he gets his cut and all the help he needs to not screw up and miss out on the opportunity.
It's marketing. And for all I hold CCGs in disdain, it's brilliant and efficient and amazing and so far from the GW paradigm you'd need the Hubble telescope for the two ways of operating to find each other.
Contrast the last decade of GW release events for FLGS: "Oh, this major new product we haven't told you anything about releases next weekend! How many can we put you down for?"
On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different
types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't
exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking. Do you start in
skirmish formation for more maneuverability, risking getting charged with
no bonuses from your numbers? Or do you form up Tight and split the
difference? Or do you make like a Dwarf and form up Square and just risk
getting outflanked? Also, when the two leaders got into a challenge in the
middle it was exciting - mine was faster but not as strong, hers was slower
but more likely to do lasting damage. We stopped before one leader killed
the other though.
That sounds quite interesting to be honest.
Not so sure about the commander being the important centre of the army, are we talking about a version of herohammer - one hard ass lord surrounded by "relatively" weak units, that are just there to buff him/soak up fire?
NWansbutter wrote: Just going back to the topic of rumours concerning Age of Sigmar, I saw this on Faet and it sounds both a lot better and a lot more realistic/likely than the text block about Nigmos we've been arguing over:
We have seen a lot of information come through, and I have held a lot as well that came in to me directly, simply because I think there was a lot of guessing and reverb going on. Today I believe we may have a decent look at just what this game will be about, and a run down on some basics of game play and the feel of the game.
Please take this right now as rumor.
via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I think players should be doing a bit more to give current players more info,
but as they don't seem to want to do that, I thought I'd weigh in with what
I know.
I had to be taught how the new game works in order to
teach it to potential players.
As this info comes from the intro game there may be some simplification of
the rules that I am unaware of, as you don't want to overload a newbie with
too much info.
Anyway, on with what I know:
Age of Sigmar offers a skirmish-level fantasy game, he did not know
whether it would be expanded to a mass-battle game later but he thought it
would.
Players take control over several small units, organised into loose groups.
The models are on round bases. He mentioned that at least at our location,
people can use square bases if they want to, in fact with the new
unit formation rules it might be slightly easier to use squares.
Units can choose how loose their units form up, either very loose (think
8th ed skirmisher loose) with benefits to movement and defense against
shooting, tight, or square.
Tight allows for more maneuvers than square, but is less maneuverable than
loose. However, if you receive a charge in tight formation you're better
off in CC than if you received it in Skirmish.
Square offers almost no maneuverability, you can only move slowly forward.
However, if you receive a charge in Square formation then you're better off
in CC than if you received it in Tight or Skirmish formation.
One of the units in the intro game (the Chosen of Sigmar) can elect to
change their formation when someone declares a charge against them as long
as they pass a Ld check (base Ld 8 so it's fairly easy, hero had Ld 9)
The only real benefit to receiving a charge in Skirmish formation (and
there are a ton of negatives - you don't get a bonus from your numbers,
only the models in base contact with the enemy can strike (see below), and
you can't parry) is that the enemy don't get the bonus for charging you in
your flank/rear, since the skirmish formation means you effectively don't
have any.
A lot of the base rules are the same as in 8th ed fantasy. The same
statline is there (M, WS, BS etc etc), armour works the same, shooting
takes similar penalties (long range, soft cover, shooting at skirmishers
etc), the difference is in the recommended level of play. CC works out in
much the same way, highest I goes first, units in base contact with either
an enemy model or a friendly model in base contact with an enemy model get
to strike, though only the former get to use all their attacks. Casualties
are removed from the back, as per usual. Different kinds of weapons
(halberds, spears, etc) and their associated bonuses weren't brought up
since the models involved only used hand weapons. Hand weapon + shield
still gives you a parry save though, as long as you received a charge (or
charged yourself) in tight or square formation, and the attacks weren't
coming from your flanks or rear.
GW is trying to push this to be played at the 1000-1500pt level. A lot of
focus was put on the heroes leading each force, and leaders will have more
impact on the game. Think LotR Strategy Battle Game and its Warband rules.
He implied that leaders in general will be more expensive, but have
more of an impact on the game. So a 1000pt force might be led by a 300pt
hero who is absolutely the core of the force, and if they die the rest of
the force is at a severe disadvantage. This goes double if the leader is
killed in a challenge by the enemy leader.
On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different
types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't
exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking. Do you start in
skirmish formation for more maneuverability, risking getting charged with
no bonuses from your numbers? Or do you form up Tight and split the
difference? Or do you make like a Dwarf and form up Square and just risk
getting outflanked? Also, when the two leaders got into a challenge in the
middle it was exciting - mine was faster but not as strong, hers was slower
but more likely to do lasting damage. We stopped before one leader killed
the other though.
Magic wasn't raised in the intro game, but once again I was told
it hasn't hugely changed. Only thing I should mention is that,
aside from some notable exceptions, wizards can't be leaders of a force.
On a background note - I was laughed at for about 10 straight minutes
when I told her about the rumours of "Waaaghkin" led by an all-female caste
of "Nigmos", though he was strangely silent when I mentioned Regalia.
From what little he did mention, the core races are all-but unchanged in their
basic background. Humanity is represented by the Empire, with the Chosen of
Sigmar being an auxiliary detachment that is often fielded alongside Empire
forces. Orcs and Goblins are there, nothing about 'Nigmos' or whatever.
Chaos is obviously there, in both Daemon and Warrior form, he didn't know
anything about Beastmen. Lizardmen weren't mentioned, neither were Skaven,
Elves were though. Elves are becoming a bit more like Space Marines in one
specific aspect - they're all one race, but differentiated on the grounds
of how they wage war, a bit like Chapter Tactics. High Elves will have 'Elf
Tactics' that reflect their training and drilling, Dark Elves will
have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their cruelty and malice, and Wood Elves
will have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their reliance on hit-and-run attacks.
I anticipate this means a single Elf book with basic troop units, some
specific units for each type of Elf, and the rest of the differences will
be in these 'Elf Tactics' and colour scheme etc.
I'm trying to remember anything else, the units were about 10-15 models
each. The Chaos forces were comprised of a unit of 10 warriors, 15
marauders, 5 warhounds, and the chaos leader. The Chosen of Sigmar (being
represented by Lizardmen models as the actual models are obviously
currently unavailable) had 15 'warriors of light', 10 'hunters' with
shortbows, and 10 'chosen', plus the leader.
It seemed a little unbalanced
in the Chosen's favour, but my manager said that when you're introducing
people to the game, although you let them pick, you talk up the Chosen more
so that they're more likely to pick them and be the good guy. That way,
although it looks fairly even, the Chosen have an advantage. Like other
intro games that have come before it, it is intended to provide 2 good,
though small, starting forces.
It was implied that both armies would
need 2-3 boxes of troops added to them to get them to 'average game' size.
This was obviously important because a key part of the intro game is not
only selling the intro box, but also upselling the customer to get a couple
more boxes for a bigger force.
Stat-line wise, though I wasn't told any specifics (this was more a matter
of 'Okay so the Warriors of Light are in close combat with the Marauders,
so you go first and hit on...') regarding statlines, this is a rough
breakdown:
- Warriors of Light are a halfway point between marauders and Chaos
Warriors, not as tough or as well armoured, but more skilled than
marauders, they were hitting marauders on 3s and saving wounds on a 4+
- Chosen are basically Chaos Warriors, same armour save, they were hit on a
4+ and wounded on a 4+ by Chaos Warriors, saving on a 4+
- Hunters are skirmishing bowmen, their only unique aspect is that I think
their bows are armour piercing. They were hitting stuff at long range
(range 24") on 5s, wounding Chaos Warriors on 5s, but Chaos Warriors with
shields were only saving on a 4+, instead of the 3+ they were saving on
against the Hunters in close combat.
- Leader of the Chosen was basically the Chosen's statline with +1 to
everything except Movement and Toughness. He had a sword that allowed him
to re-roll failed hits against Chaos things.
I am using the current statlines for Chaos Warriors, Marauders etc in these
estimations, and they are liable to change.
Anyway, that's all I can remember. I hope this is informative!
I've actually been fairly apathetic about Age of Sigmar (just because of the uncertainty) and was prepared to just stick to 6th edition in my closed gaming group, but this actually has enough potential to get me just a tiny bit excited. Maybe we'll end up using Age of Sigmar after all.
You know, I'd honestly be more annoyed with something like that than with the pretty mental total overhaul in the rumours you allude to. Why? Because these new rumours don't just sound plausible, they sound pretty good, indeed they sound like exactly the sort of thing that Warhammer needed.
And they in no way whatsoever required GW to take a massive steaming cacky all over the background. Not even slightly.
Switch to a Stormclaw-esque release model for the game going forward, focus the campaigns on smaller conflicts that form part of the wider war, bam, there's your excuse to move to smaller units and game sizes. Moderately ramp up the Chaos threat to "oh balls, they're going to overrun Prague again", and have Valten pop up to work with the Witch Hunters to found a new knightly order and recover some shiny magical relic to Super Saiyan them up to fight the resurgent Chaos threat, and there's your justification for this new Sigmarines nonsense. Bring back Nagash but have him as a Man Behind the Curtain-style villain, still giving justification to amalgamate the Undead. Threaten all the Elven races with daemonic incursion through those magical pathways of the Old Ones or whatever, to justify them uniting.
There are so, so many ways they could have achieved the same outcomes from gameplay and sales/stock management perspectives as the End Times while leaving the existing fiction almost entirely intact that the only reason I can think of for this whole debacle is sheer, utter laziness. Sure, they could have put time, effort, and resources into marketing the new version of the game, but far easier to just smash it with a hammer as an attention-grabber.
Bottle wrote: The new rumours sound nice. So will I be able to make a "square" formation with circle bases???????
And as long as my Empire aren't ghost units I have to summon from another plane, I'm happy.
I'm wondering (assuming that rumor specifically is true) if you don't need counters to show what each unit is doing formation-wise each turn.
Such counters would obviously be available in army specific patterns sold in limited edition tins and later as generic ones.
I was thinking of the lines:
Skirmish = 2" any shape (i.e. 40k style)
Tight = 1" square shape (i.e. 8th style skirmish)
Square = base to base
I'm sure there'll be limited edition counters for some role in the game though :p
Aye, make its sound like 4th/5th edition. Which, with me, makes it tempting because I like those versions of fantasy! Rest of it sounds more of the same though
At this point I'm just hoping for a decent selection of models in the starter set.
People were, and still are, cracking open Dark Vengeance Box sets to sell the min rulebook for $35 and the starter armies for $40-$50 each. GW may not be crazy about it, but it allowed everyone in my gaming comunity to pick up a rulebook at a semireasonable price without aquiring models they didn't want, while allowing others to aquire cheap Dark Angel's armies and Chaos Cultists.
You know, I'd honestly be more annoyed with something like that than with the pretty mental total overhaul in the rumours you allude to. Why? Because these new rumours don't just sound plausible, they sound pretty good, indeed they sound like exactly the sort of thing that Warhammer needed.
And they in no way whatsoever required GW to take a massive steaming cacky all over the background. Not even slightly.
Switch to a Stormclaw-esque release model for the game going forward, focus the campaigns on smaller conflicts that form part of the wider war, bam, there's your excuse to move to smaller units and game sizes. Moderately ramp up the Chaos threat to "oh balls, they're going to overrun Prague again", and have Valten pop up to work with the Witch Hunters to found a new knightly order and recover some shiny magical relic to Super Saiyan them up to fight the resurgent Chaos threat, and there's your justification for this new Sigmarines nonsense. Bring back Nagash but have him as a Man Behind the Curtain-style villain, still giving justification to amalgamate the Undead. Threaten all the Elven races with daemonic incursion through those magical pathways of the Old Ones or whatever, to justify them uniting.
There are so, so many ways they could have achieved the same outcomes from gameplay and sales/stock management perspectives as the End Times while leaving the existing fiction almost entirely intact that the only reason I can think of for this whole debacle is sheer, utter laziness. Sure, they could have put time, effort, and resources into marketing the new version of the game, but far easier to just smash it with a hammer as an attention-grabber.
Ugh.
I completely agree. Since the destruction of the setting and the factions we know, I havent had any interest in the new edition, even if its a masterpiece of rules writing. Its unfortunate that they took the unnecessary step of destroying everything, as if they hadn't, and these new rumours are true, It would have me very excited instead of going ho hum its not warhammer anymore so who cares.
For every person that is upset over the 30+ year old setting coming to an end, there is likely an equal number of people excited about a new setting. It's especially friendly to new players who can find a game with history older than they are daunting.
How many settings had D&D gone through ?
Forgottten Realms, Lankmar, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Al Quadim, Dragon Lance, Mystara, Spelljammer, etc....
adamsouza wrote: For every person that is upset over the 30+ year old setting coming to an end, there is likely an equal number of people excited about a new setting. It's especially friendly to new players who can find a game with history older than they are daunting.
How many settings had D&D gone through ?
Forgottten Realms, Lankmar, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Al Quadim, Dragon Lance, Mystara, Spelljammer, etc....
I doubt that. People who didnt like the setting are more likely to have left to find one they do like. While those who liked the setting are more likely to stay because they DO like it. Meaning its logical that destroying the setting upsets more people than it has people cheering.
adamsouza wrote: For every person that is upset over the 30+ year old setting coming to an end, there is likely an equal number of people excited about a new setting.
Numbers?
I dunno how many are excited vs. upset. There might be more excited, there might be fewer. But despite the mantra of the GW Hhhobby, there are factors other than background that might attract or repel gamers, and I'm not entirely sure that a lot of 'em who've been once bitten by GW are going to come flooding back, even if the new fluff tickles them.
As someone who has been playing 18+ years I was excited with the end times. I likeep that all the recent armybooks, 8th rulebook, and end times pretty much tell a story of an entire era. And now I'm excited to see what happens. The newest rumors make me hopeful that my issues with 8th are resolved. We'll see in 3 weeks...
adamsouza wrote: For every person that is upset over the 30+ year old setting coming to an end, there is likely an equal number of people excited about a new setting. It's especially friendly to new players who can find a game with history older than they are daunting.
How many settings had D&D gone through ?
Forgottten Realms, Lankmar, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Al Quadim, Dragon Lance, Mystara, Spelljammer, etc....
And how many of those were successful post apocalypse? Their most popular setting outside of the core (FR) was nuked into bubble universes alongside a drastic rules change just like we're talking about with WHFB/AOS and that edition's sales were the first surpassed by another company since D&D started the RPG hobby and resulted in the shortest lived edition in recent memory (20 years). The rest were unceremoniously dropped (although frequently for good reason TBH) so they're not exactly poster children for the potential success of AOS either.
And Episodes IV,V, and VI are better than I,II,III but they reinvigorated the franchise and paved the way for a movie a year for the next ten years.
No matter how much anyone loved the Warhammer Fantasy setting as it was, it wasn't selling.
Rebooting provides a fresh jumping on point.
How much of the next edition do you buy, if you already have been playing for the last decade and only the core rules changed ? The answer is not much.
Great for you, but not soo much for GW or your LGS you expect to carry it.
New sells. Kickstarter is blowling up with new miniatures games every month.
Herzlos wrote: The rumours that sound most like jokes tend to be the ones that turn out to be true, though.
OgreChubbs wrote: I actually had to google mtg thing to find out what it was lol. The closest gw store is one hour away. Closest store to buy mtg is 3 hours away so gw wins here
All the large bookstores (Waterstones etc) and all but the smallest comic stores in the UK sell MtG packs. It's easily the most accesible 'geek' game on the market, and 'geek' is currently pretty in. I wouldn't be surprised if some newsagents even have packs.
In the US you can buy Magic cards at most big retailers. Walmart and Target (a bit like Tesco, I gather) both stock them. In addition, at least in my area, about a quarter of the FLGS that exist are pretty much exclusively focused on Magic, with little or no support for miniature gaming. I don't know where OgreChubbs lives that he is 3 hours from any place that sells Magic, but it must be waaaaaaay out in the sticks.
adamsouza wrote: For every person that is upset over the 30+ year old setting coming to an end, there is likely an equal number of people excited about a new setting. It's especially friendly to new players who can find a game with history older than they are daunting.
How many settings had D&D gone through ?
Forgottten Realms, Lankmar, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Al Quadim, Dragon Lance, Mystara, Spelljammer, etc....
You forgot the original -- Greyhawk!!
Gord of Greyhawk was my hero. At the time, he was my favorite thief character in literature, and remained so for quite a while.
To your other point, I don't even think it's good for players to make a game where you just iterate rules. If you were very good at that, at the end of the day, you'd have a perfect game that nobody stayed with because the same setting gets boring no matter how good it is. To keep the eyeballs on you, there has to be new stuff that people want, dribbled out at the right cadence. In this respect, 40k has been much better than Fantasy.
Heck, I can find MTG cards at the local Gas Stations. They are everywhere.
I've talked to more than one comic/gaming store owner and they've all agreed that MTG is their number one money maker.
Players are constantly impulse buying new packs, card sleeves, and card holders, between releases, while buying entire boxes of cards with each new release. Not to mention the money to be made selling singles.
To your other point, I don't even think it's good for players to make a game where you just iterate rules. If you were very good at that, at the end of the day, you'd have a perfect game that nobody stayed with because the same setting gets boring no matter how good it is. To keep the eyeballs on you, there has to be new stuff that people want, dribbled out at the right cadence. In this respect, 40k has been much better than Fantasy.
Exactly.
Also, I can't believe I forgot GreyHawk. Although I must admit, it's been damn long time since I've heard it's name mentioned.
No matter how much anyone loved the Warhammer Fantasy setting as it was, it wasn't selling.
Rebooting provides a fresh jumping on point.
I agree with the above but was rather pointing out a market leading example of doing what WHFB is rumored to be doing NOT leading to increased sales. FR was bubbled (turned into "points of light") and the rules massively revamped (if the stuff posted here ends up true) and it flopped... big time. A reboot isn't a magic cureall for everything despite what Hollywood would have us believe. There are real risks involved and if GW didn't put the customer first (instead of Kirbry's retirement dividend slush fund) and the effort into making sure the changes are good for the customer (see 7th edition 40k for the opposite) then the reboot will likely be a waste of everyone's time and money.
Tesco tends to stock Pokemon TCGs in the UK.. but in the starter, three blister and blister on a card back with rare and coin variety.
The Waterstones in Ipswich has a large selection of Magic though.
Those recent gameplay rumours sound pretty good to me, would happily give that a go.. if it comes with some of the figures the other guy suggested.. then I could see me starting with a couple of boxes not the one.
No matter how much anyone loved the Warhammer Fantasy setting as it was, it wasn't selling.
Wrong.
warhammer fantasy wasnt selling as well as they wanted it to. It was still selling and was still making profit. Either way this had nothing to do with the setting, and to find a solution that setting didnt need to be destroyed. In fact id go as far as to say the reason it was still doing as well as it was, and hadnt already completely died was because of the setting and its history.
The 3 biggest reasons it wasnt selling better were the price (both of entry and in general), the effort to start an army (time and assembly/painting in general for some) and the lack of support (competitive play, timely errata/faqs, good balance etc).
Neither of these are tied to a setting, they could make a smaller scale skirmish edition in the old setting just as easy as they can in a new setting to fix the first 2 (which is one step they seem to be taking), likewise better support can be done in any setting (though i doubt this will change anyway).
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: Tesco tends to stock Pokemon TCGs in the UK.. but in the starter, three blister and blister on a card back with rare and coin variety.
The Waterstones in Ipswich has a large selection of Magic though.
Those recent gameplay rumours sound pretty good to me, would happily give that a go.. if it comes with some of the figures the other guy suggested.. then I could see me starting with a couple of boxes not the one.
The Waterstone's local to me started doing FNM, but the organiser kept picking it up and dropping it, or something similar I think, so the local players got frustrated, but it def seems there's a link.
No matter how much anyone loved the Warhammer Fantasy setting as it was, it wasn't selling.
Rebooting provides a fresh jumping on point.
I agree with the above but was rather pointing out a market leading example of doing what WHFB is rumored to be doing NOT leading to increased sales. FR was bubbled (turned into "points of light") and the rules massively revamped (if the stuff posted here ends up true) and it flopped... big time. A reboot isn't a magic cureall for everything despite what Hollywood would have us believe. There are real risks involved and if GW didn't put the customer first (instead of Kirbry's retirement dividend slush fund) and the effort into making sure the changes are good for the customer (see 7th edition 40k for the opposite) then the reboot will likely be a waste of everyone's time and money.
Are you refering to D&D 4th Edition ? It did take massive amounts of hated from the existing playerbase, and fueld Pathfiders success, but it was a good game, and new players generally enjoyed it. Most of the 3E players that hated it decided they hated it before playing it. There was serious resentment over having huge libraries of books that became perceived as obsolete.
D&D 4E's life cycle had more to do with it being owned by a toy and board game manufacturer rather than an old school gaming outfit. It's the same situation that 40K and Fantasy are in now. Corporations care about moving product. To move product it needs to be "new and improved".
adamsouza wrote: And Episodes IV,V, and VI are better than I,II,III but they reinvigorated the franchise and paved the way for a movie a year for the next ten years.
Yeah, no. Disney would've bought the Star Wars license without the prequel trilogy existing. They probably would've produced a better prequel trilogy, too, while they were at it.
All this talk of MtG is reminding me how much I loath that game, and the community/culture it engenders. I have seen children crying in front of a box, buying a pack at a time... for hours... because they didn't get some "chase" non-sense. Likewise you'll see people fighting angrily over trades, and all manner of non-sense.
I may dislike GW's pricing and questionable (or non-existent) game balancing, but at least their game isn't a depraved slot-machine before one even starts "playing", and a recipe for future addicts of every or any kind.
I appreciate that it, and mostly singles-sales prop up most game-shops in the US, but seeing those singles often coming from desperate teens trading in something for a few dollars of "store credit" to feed their habit, which then gets flipped to another manic gamer for 400% profit, just makes me feel all kinds of uncomfortable.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm more excited that WFB is going back to 5E / 6E unit sizes and army composition vs the hordes of 8E.
My 8. edition units are smaller than my 5. and 6. edtion units were (played a lot 30-40 model units back than, now they hardly one hits 30 models with most beeing 20).
So for me, units size is getting smaller and smaller with every edition (while total army prize increased)
adamsouza wrote: And Episodes IV,V, and VI are better than I,II,III but they reinvigorated the franchise and paved the way for a movie a year for the next ten years.
Yeah, no. Disney would've bought the Star Wars license without the prequel trilogy existing. They probably would've produced a better prequel trilogy, too, while they were at it.
Disney straigh up admitted that the reason they bought Star Wars was the same reason they bought Marvel, they were both currently strong with the 18-25 year old male demographic.
Without the prequils, all Star Wars was at the time was the expanded universe, which Disney immediately dumped after aquiring, and a few video games, which Disney dumped after aquiring.
Don't get me wrong, they loved the Star Wars setting, like we all do, but it was the Clone Wars Era success with modern males that made them viable.
Are you refering to D&D 4th Edition ? It did take massive amounts of hated from the existing playerbase, and fueld Pathfiders success, but it was a good game, and new players generally enjoyed it. Most of the 3E players that hated it decided they hated it before playing it. There was serious resentment over having huge libraries of books that became perceived as obsolete.
The above is certainly not reflective of my experience or that frankly of the community as a whole who responded after initial enthusiasm (WOTC boasted that the 4e preorders were their best ever) negatively to it for the rest of the entirety of it's short life cycle. If it was "just" the existing old foggies like myself that supposedly hated it before playing, the preorders wouldn't have been so high and the game would have stayed at the top of the ICV2 rankings like the previous D&D edition as new players started AND STAYED. Every edition has had churn yet D&D never dropped out of the top spot for as long as folks have been counting. Most of my (then) current D&D group as well as the previous long standing multiyear one in another state had the majority of the then 3e players preorder the books.. and both groups collapsed withing months. My then current group lasted only 2-3 games of 4th before we all decided that it just wasn't worth it; at the time there was no pathfinder yet so we stopped playing RPGs and switched to board games instead for a while. My old group chugged on for a few months but then pettered out as well since out of the 6-7 remaining players only 2 actually liked the new rules. I find little objective basis in your excuses for 4e and even less subjective ones from my own experience. In the case of the latter, though, they're both anecdotal so you're welcome to agree to disagree.
adamsouza wrote: And Episodes IV,V, and VI are better than I,II,III but they reinvigorated the franchise and paved the way for a movie a year for the next ten years.
No matter how much anyone loved the Warhammer Fantasy setting as it was, it wasn't selling.
Rebooting provides a fresh jumping on point.
How much of the next edition do you buy, if you already have been playing for the last decade and only the core rules changed ? The answer is not much.
Great for you, but not soo much for GW or your LGS you expect to carry it.
New sells. Kickstarter is blowling up with new miniatures games every month.
And how many of those games do you expect will become 30 year franchises with an IP strong enough to flog licensed videogames? Hell, how many of them manage to stay relevant even 6-12 months after the KS is over? Newshiny sells in the moment, it doesn't create a stable foundation; you can try and set up a perpetual churn of newshiny, that's what GW have tried with 40K of late and what a few companies have been trying on KS, but in both cases fatigue is setting in. The ADHD crowd buy and then they move on, or go back to their familiar favourite(which for many was Warhammer, because of the background); MMO companies have been trying to lure the videogaming part of the ADHD crowd for years now, they get a burst of sales, then inside a couple of years all those folk have moved on or gone back to WoW, and they either sink or go F2P and eke out a living from a handful of whales.
So GW goes Newshiny on Fantasy with AoS, then in six months the sales drop off again because the actual issues have only been partially solved, what then, blow everything up again? Start a 40K-style accelerated release cycle that will burn out new folk and further piss off existing players who find their expensive rulebooks invalidated after a year or two? This approach to "rebooting" Fantasy is symptomatic of GW's issues as a company; they're happy to lurch from one barely-sustainable burst of sales to the next, burning through their rich heritage of IP in order to keep the financials just healthy enough that they can continue to justify forking out dividends, with no real regard for longevity.
I'm sure that some people stopped playing Fantasy because they got bored of the background, but I'd bet my house that such folk are a tiny minority compared to those who quit because of cost, or issues with the new edition's rules, or lack of event support, or GW's less community-friendly approach to their retail chain, or because the decline in playerbase caused by all of those other things meant WHFB was no longer guaranteed to find you a game whenever you wanted in your area.
warboss wrote:Most of my (then) current D&D group as well as the previous long standing multiyear one in another state had the majority of the then 3e players preorder the books.. and both groups collapsed withing months. My then current group lasted only 2-3 games of 4th before we all decided that it just wasn't worth it; at the time there was no pathfinder yet so we stopped playing RPGs and switched to board games instead for a while. My old group chugged on for a few months but then pettered out as well since out of the 6-7 remaining players only 2 actually liked the new rules.
But... but... surely they knew gaming groups are for drinking beer and shooting breezes, and the games and their rubbishness have nothing to do with anything...?
Yodhrin wrote: I'm sure that some people stopped playing Fantasy because they got bored of the background, but I'd bet my house that such folk are a tiny minority compared to those who quit because of cost, or issues with the new edition's rules, or lack of event support, or GW's less community-friendly approach to their retail chain, or because the decline in playerbase caused by all of those other things meant WHFB was no longer guaranteed to find you a game whenever you wanted in your area.
Indeed. The numbers don't lie. When I started 40K (4E). Fantasy was the top game in the local stores and on the forum. Today I never see Fantasy players anymore at the FLGS. I see INFINITY, Warmahordes and 40K mostly. X-Wing is the «shiny new game» but its already in difficulty because Armada came out - some want to play others don't. And now I see more and more 40K players giving Infinity a try because they are tired of spending a fortune (7E after 2 years didn't help) and carrying trunks full of models just for one game. Times are changing and GW has to do something about it.
On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different
types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't
exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking. Do you start in
skirmish formation for more maneuverability, risking getting charged with
no bonuses from your numbers? Or do you form up Tight and split the
difference? Or do you make like a Dwarf and form up Square and just risk
getting outflanked? Also, when the two leaders got into a challenge in the
middle it was exciting - mine was faster but not as strong, hers was slower
but more likely to do lasting damage. We stopped before one leader killed
the other though.
That sounds quite interesting to be honest.
Not so sure about the commander being the important centre of the army, are we talking about a version of herohammer - one hard ass lord surrounded by "relatively" weak units, that are just there to buff him/soak up fire?
Sounds more like a huge hit to morale that makes the troops lose their heart in the fight after seeing their lord and leader get decapitated by a daemon prince in CC. Pretty good reason to pack it in and head home from a fight, I'd say. I like that concept!
And how many of those games do you expect will become 30 year franchises with an IP strong enough to flog licensed videogames? Hell, how many of them manage to stay relevant even 6-12 months after the KS is over? Newshiny sells in the moment, it doesn't create a stable foundation; you can try and set up a perpetual churn of newshiny, that's what GW have tried with 40K of late and what a few companies have been trying on KS, but in both cases fatigue is setting in. The ADHD crowd buy and then they move on, or go back to their familiar favourite(which for many was Warhammer, because of the background); MMO companies have been trying to lure the videogaming part of the ADHD crowd for years now, they get a burst of sales, then inside a couple of years all those folk have moved on or gone back to WoW, and they either sink or go F2P and eke out a living from a handful of whales.
So GW goes Newshiny on Fantasy with AoS, then in six months the sales drop off again because the actual issues have only been partially solved, what then, blow everything up again? Start a 40K-style accelerated release cycle that will burn out new folk and further piss off existing players who find their expensive rulebooks invalidated after a year or two? This approach to "rebooting" Fantasy is symptomatic of GW's issues as a company; they're happy to lurch from one barely-sustainable burst of sales to the next, burning through their rich heritage of IP in order to keep the financials just healthy enough that they can continue to justify forking out dividends, with no real regard for longevity.
I'm sure that some people stopped playing Fantasy because they got bored of the background, but I'd bet my house that such folk are a tiny minority compared to those who quit because of cost, or issues with the new edition's rules, or lack of event support, or GW's less community-friendly approach to their retail chain, or because the decline in playerbase caused by all of those other things meant WHFB was no longer guaranteed to find you a game whenever you wanted in your area.
Everything you've said there may be fine and valid, but it's how corporations work.
What matters to them are the sales for the this, and maybe next, financial year.
Also, it has less to do with being bored with Warhammer Fantasy and to do with being new and shiny. End Times sold really well because it was something new.
My FLGS couldn't move Warhammer Fantasy stuff to save their lives, but Age of Sigmar starters will sell because the old fantasy players will buy it out of curiosity. Then we'll get some fools to play it with us, and some of them witll buy it as well. Then they'll need an army book, and more models, etc...
What matters to them are the sales for the this, and maybe next, financial year.
What happens the year after that? Another edition? multitudes of 'DLC' army lists? If I really wanted to sink Warhammer I would do pretty much what GW seem to be doing at the moment.
What matters to them are the sales for the this, and maybe next, financial year.
What happens the year after that? Another edition? multitudes of 'DLC' army lists? If I really wanted to sink Warhammer I would do pretty much what GW seem to be doing at the moment.
Army Book: Imperial Steam Tank. I can see it now! Oh, what a day... what a lovely day!
For every person that is upset over the 30+ year old setting coming to an end, there is likely an equal number of people excited about a new setting. It's especially friendly to new players who can find a game with history older than they are daunting.
How many settings had D&D gone through ?
Forgottten Realms, Lankmar, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Al Quadim, Dragon Lance, Mystara, Spelljammer, etc....
+1
Dabbled in WHFB around 5-7th with friends armies, enjoyed it, but was bigtime into 40k so didnt want another army/.system.
This though, has me excited- aswell as my core gaming group who havent bought a WHFB model in 2 yrs.
I know, its anecdotal but, dont write off the silent WHFB "viewers".
I think there's a reasonable chance that Age of Sigmar will disgruntle and fracture the existing Warhammer Fantasy community, and it won't get any new people. Or maybe it'll entice some new people, but not enough, and quickly get forgotten.
It sounds reasonably affordable to put an army together based on the latest rumours and GW could turn this into an opportunity to shift current Fantasy stock...
...or they could use it as an opportunity to hike the prices of the existing kits because you won't need as manyy miniatures.
Flashman wrote: It sounds reasonably affordable to put an army together based on the latest rumours and GW could turn this into an opportunity to shift current Fantasy stock...
...or they could use it as an opportunity to hike the prices of the existing kits because you won't need as manyy miniatures.
So, what, they jack the empire to 40-50 a box? raising per model to 4 or 5? I dunno, are GW that cwayzee?
Nah not thinking greedy enough.
"Sir we have to price the models for the new game."
"Well they need fewer models, so sell we'll the models as single clam packs with a few options for $30."
"Genius!"
I really like the description of AoS by the latest rumor. I havent play Warhammer fantasy historically but have been looking at getting into it. I do play a number of other games including 40K. I would like it if you can maintain multiple formations having skirmish at one extreme and rank and file at another. I am very excited to see what will come out in July. I am not big on how fast codex's are coming out for 40K to be honest, however with the release of so many models and a new army recently in 40K I think GW has really upped it's game and see no reason why fantasy shouldnt also benefit from great product (IMO) in the same way that 40K is getting the good treatment.
"Sir we have to price the models for the new game."
"Well they need fewer models, so sell we'll the models as single clam packs with a few options for $30."
"Genius!"
Oh come now
but seriosuly, despite GWs naiiveity, they have to cater to people like me surely with AoS? - WHFB "dabblers" - get us to buy 2-3 basic kits, and then after 6 months jack the release/unit needs?
Fish once hooked, rarely let go and all that......
No matter how much anyone loved the Warhammer Fantasy setting as it was, it wasn't selling.
Rebooting provides a fresh jumping on point.
I agree with the above but was rather pointing out a market leading example of doing what WHFB is rumored to be doing NOT leading to increased sales. FR was bubbled (turned into "points of light") and the rules massively revamped (if the stuff posted here ends up true) and it flopped... big time. A reboot isn't a magic cureall for everything despite what Hollywood would have us believe. There are real risks involved and if GW didn't put the customer first (instead of Kirbry's retirement dividend slush fund) and the effort into making sure the changes are good for the customer (see 7th edition 40k for the opposite) then the reboot will likely be a waste of everyone's time and money.
Are you refering to D&D 4th Edition ? It did take massive amounts of hated from the existing playerbase, and fueld Pathfiders success, but it was a good game, and new players generally enjoyed it. Most of the 3E players that hated it decided they hated it before playing it. There was serious resentment over having huge libraries of books that became perceived as obsolete.
D&D 4E's life cycle had more to do with it being owned by a toy and board game manufacturer rather than an old school gaming outfit. It's the same situation that 40K and Fantasy are in now. Corporations care about moving product. To move product it needs to be "new and improved".
I flipped through the book, came to section on alignments, only saw 5, put the book down and never gave it another thought. Sorry, but I need lawful evil villains and chaotic good heroes.
Disney straigh up admitted that the reason they bought Star Wars was the same reason they bought Marvel, they were both currently strong with the 18-25 year old male demographic.
Without the prequils, all Star Wars was at the time was the expanded universe, which Disney immediately dumped after aquiring, and a few video games, which Disney dumped after aquiring.
Don't get me wrong, they loved the Star Wars setting, like we all do, but it was the Clone Wars Era success with modern males that made them viable.
No. I'm in that 18-25 liking Star Wars demographic. I'm in that demographic despite the prequels, not because of them. I grew up with the originals on VHS, as would have done countless others. Without the prequels, Star Wars would still be one of the best selling and most loved science fiction film series of all time.
Disney straigh up admitted that the reason they bought Star Wars was the same reason they bought Marvel, they were both currently strong with the 18-25 year old male demographic.
Without the prequils, all Star Wars was at the time was the expanded universe, which Disney immediately dumped after aquiring, and a few video games, which Disney dumped after aquiring.
Don't get me wrong, they loved the Star Wars setting, like we all do, but it was the Clone Wars Era success with modern males that made them viable.
No. I'm in that 18-25 liking Star Wars demographic. I'm in that demographic despite the prequels, not because of them. I grew up with the originals on VHS, as would have done countless others. Without the prequels, Star Wars would still be one of the best selling and most loved science fiction film series of all time.
You do understand the concept that a single person is not representatitve of an entire demographic ?
Also, what do you think they would have been selling ? Maybe growing up with the prequils being a thing already has skewed your perspective on this, because without the hype for and from the prequils there was virtually nothing Star Wars to buy. At least nothing worth Disney's attention. There were Dark Horse Comics, the WEG RPG, and Novels. Those VHS tapes you grew up watching were released to remind us all how great the originals were so we would watch the prequils.
Wait, what?! Now I'm confused. Is the game changing radically or what? I just converted a whole regiment of Nigmos on hex bases and bought a bunch of d12s... I'm ready to get my Age of Sigmar swerve on, yo.
Disney straigh up admitted that the reason they bought Star Wars was the same reason they bought Marvel, they were both currently strong with the 18-25 year old male demographic.
Without the prequils, all Star Wars was at the time was the expanded universe, which Disney immediately dumped after aquiring, and a few video games, which Disney dumped after aquiring.
Don't get me wrong, they loved the Star Wars setting, like we all do, but it was the Clone Wars Era success with modern males that made them viable.
No. I'm in that 18-25 liking Star Wars demographic. I'm in that demographic despite the prequels, not because of them. I grew up with the originals on VHS, as would have done countless others. Without the prequels, Star Wars would still be one of the best selling and most loved science fiction film series of all time.
You do understand the concept that a single person is not representatitve of an entire demographic ?
Also, what do you think they would have been selling ? Maybe growing up with the prequils being a thing already has skewed your perspective on this, because without the hype for and from the prequils there was virtually nothing Star Wars to buy. At least nothing worth Disney's attention. There were Dark Horse Comics, the WEG RPG, and Novels. Those VHS tapes you grew up watching were released to remind us all how great the originals were so we would watch the prequils.
I remember the prequels coming out. I was seven when Phantom Menace was released. I remember being extremely excited, before I saw it.
And right, because Star Wars, the films which basically began the entire concept of selling toys from films as we know it today has nothing to offer Disney without the prequels. I again say, Disney would've bought the rights and made their own prequel trilogy.
Disney straigh up admitted that the reason they bought Star Wars was the same reason they bought Marvel, they were both currently strong with the 18-25 year old male demographic.
Without the prequils, all Star Wars was at the time was the expanded universe, which Disney immediately dumped after aquiring, and a few video games, which Disney dumped after aquiring.
Don't get me wrong, they loved the Star Wars setting, like we all do, but it was the Clone Wars Era success with modern males that made them viable.
No. I'm in that 18-25 liking Star Wars demographic. I'm in that demographic despite the prequels, not because of them. I grew up with the originals on VHS, as would have done countless others. Without the prequels, Star Wars would still be one of the best selling and most loved science fiction film series of all time.
You do understand the concept that a single person is not representatitve of an entire demographic ?
Also, what do you think they would have been selling ? Maybe growing up with the prequils being a thing already has skewed your perspective on this, because without the hype for and from the prequils there was virtually nothing Star Wars to buy. At least nothing worth Disney's attention. There were Dark Horse Comics, the WEG RPG, and Novels. Those VHS tapes you grew up watching were released to remind us all how great the originals were so we would watch the prequils.
You're kidding, right? Every toystore I went to in the 90's as a kid had an entire aisle of Star Wars merch. The prequels can't be discounted out of hand, I'm sure they created a lot of new fans, but the idea that Star Wars, a franchise that merited being re-released in cinemas 20+ years after they originally came out(a release which had an associated avalanche of merch and toys), wasn't big enough for Disney to pay attention to is laughable.
I was at a bbq with some gaming gents today when WFB came up, one of them being a redshirt. Take this with the usual redshirt info, sometimes spoonfed by GW. Units will indeed be on circular bases with most infantry units gaining base-to-base contact bonuses depending on their equipment layout and command qualities.
Armored/shield units gain a shield wall bonus, ranged and spear units gain rerolls to-hit with additional ranks in base-to-base, basic infantry gain morale. These are initiated at the end of their movement phase if the unit is fully in base contact.
Separated models fall into a 40k-esque open formation, gaining bonuses if their type has a preference for that formation, with all gaining movement and deployment bonuses depending on the further their cohesion but also lowering morale and objective contests of some sort.
I'll try to squeeze out a little more info tomorrow at breakfast.
From a Red Shirt, but at this point they might be starting to train them to demo the new game.
Let's hope Age of Sigmar isn't to GW what Age of Ragnarok was to Rackham.
'cause it's CAotR all over again. Company has a beloved line with a staggering baggage in the form of wonky rules and excessive number of factions, but profits aren't satisfactory (despite the line remaining profitable), so they scrap it along with the entire fan base to start afresh and expand the customer base, purging the miniature line of any slow sellers and duplicates in the process. The new game is shunned by the old guard and there aren't enough newcomers to make up for the loss, let alone provide higher turnover. The game dies, taking the company with it.
Anybody want to wager the same will be true for AoS?
-DE- wrote: Let's hope Age of Sigmar isn't to GW what Age of Ragnarok was to Rackham.
'cause it's CAotR all over again. Company has a beloved line with a staggering baggage in the form of wonky rules and excessive number of factions, but profits aren't satisfactory (despite the line remaining profitable), so they scrap it along with the entire fan base to start afresh and expand the customer base, purging the miniature line of any slow sellers and duplicates in the process. The new game is shunned by the old guard and there aren't enough newcomers to make up for the loss, let alone provide higher turnover. The game dies, taking the company with it.
Anybody want to wager the same will be true for AoS?
If GW decides to switch from unpainted plastic kits to rubber prepaints, while at the same time upscaling the game, instead of downscaling it, I might consider betting a modest sum.
I was at a bbq with some gaming gents today when WFB came up, one of them being a redshirt. Take this with the usual redshirt info, sometimes spoonfed by GW. Units will indeed be on circular bases with most infantry units gaining base-to-base contact bonuses depending on their equipment layout and command qualities.
Armored/shield units gain a shield wall bonus, ranged and spear units gain rerolls to-hit with additional ranks in base-to-base, basic infantry gain morale. These are initiated at the end of their movement phase if the unit is fully in base contact.
Separated models fall into a 40k-esque open formation, gaining bonuses if their type has a preference for that formation, with all gaining movement and deployment bonuses depending on the further their cohesion but also lowering morale and objective contests of some sort.
I'll try to squeeze out a little more info tomorrow at breakfast.
From a Red Shirt, but at this point they might be starting to train them to demo the new game.
This sounds great too. The only nigmo of doubt I have left for AoS is the state of the Empire and if my black powder units can still play
).
