Whoa, I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more discussion here so far!
I thought the opposite, that it would use 8th edition rules...
I'm not sure what to think... at least when they release Fires of Cyraxus I can try out the 8th edition rules with my Mechanicum, but the lack of specifics on that has me wondering what to do in the interim. If anyone there in-person can bug them on timeline regarding the book, I'm sure the legion of us waiting on it would appreciate it
Got me confused here too. For one, sticking to 7th is pretty logical as phasing out that many volumes of HH books, that cost 70-80 quid each would most likely cause a massive gak storm.
On the other hand, there's the question: for how long? Will they just stick to 7th, until they release pretty much everything and then leave it as a half-dead setting with minor tweaks one in a while? Because they would eventually have to phase out all the books anyways..
CragHack wrote: Got me confused here too. For one, sticking to 7th is pretty logical as phasing out that many volumes of HH books, that cost 70-80 quid each would most likely cause a massive gak storm.
On the other hand, there's the question: for how long? Will they just stick to 7th, until they release pretty much everything and then leave it as a half-dead setting with minor tweaks one in a while? Because they would eventually have to phase out all the books anyways..
It is essentially just a Specialist Game now. And "release pretty much everything" LOL Dude, they can't release enough fast enough for this to be a real issue.
CragHack wrote: Got me confused here too. For one, sticking to 7th is pretty logical as phasing out that many volumes of HH books, that cost 70-80 quid each would most likely cause a massive gak storm.
On the other hand, there's the question: for how long? Will they just stick to 7th, until they release pretty much everything and then leave it as a half-dead setting with minor tweaks one in a while? Because they would eventually have to phase out all the books anyways..
It is essentially just a Specialist Game now. And "release pretty much everything" LOL Dude, they can't release enough fast enough for this to be a real issue.
Have they confirmed that? Or at least mentioned anything about it converting to 8th? I recall them saying that it eventually it will be updated to 8th. That's why it's so confusing
CragHack wrote: Got me confused here too. For one, sticking to 7th is pretty logical as phasing out that many volumes of HH books, that cost 70-80 quid each would most likely cause a massive gak storm.
On the other hand, there's the question: for how long? Will they just stick to 7th, until they release pretty much everything and then leave it as a half-dead setting with minor tweaks one in a while? Because they would eventually have to phase out all the books anyways..
I suspect that this is intended to give them time to a) finish releasing everything for 7th and b) work on updating everything for 8th.
But as em_en_oh_pee said, "finish releasing everything for 7th" is kinda crazy idea. Considering they haven't really finished releasing stuff from last year Eh...
CragHack wrote: Bleh, couldn't even bother making new slides for Cyraxus. I guess that pretty much sums up their whole priorities.
Yep. Pretty much my entire feelings rn.
Yeap. The last big event FW attended they said there would be at least one or two new models for FoC this year and this was just a few months back. We know the book got delayed, but I thought they would show those off today. They said it wouldn't new a super heavy flyer or suit. So I guess that isn't happening. Not if it means space marines go without release for one week.
It's never going to come out is it?
With the Tyranids being obliterated by Khorne in like the blink of an eye. Does anyone else think this is the end for the Xenos in 40k? Oh sure our model ranges will always be there, but it feels like we're not going to get anything anymore. It sure feels that way.
Gamgee wrote: With the Tyranids being obliterated by Khorne in like the blink of an eye. Does anyone else think this is the end for the Xenos in 40k? Oh sure our model ranges will always be there, but it feels like we're not going to get anything anymore. It sure feels that way.
Really, feth off with this baseless speculation. This is also the wrong fething thread for this bs.
CragHack wrote: Got me confused here too. For one, sticking to 7th is pretty logical as phasing out that many volumes of HH books, that cost 70-80 quid each would most likely cause a massive gak storm.
On the other hand, there's the question: for how long? Will they just stick to 7th, until they release pretty much everything and then leave it as a half-dead setting with minor tweaks one in a while? Because they would eventually have to phase out all the books anyways..
I would hope that they stick with 7th until a sensible break-point like the Siege of Terra book/s so that everyone who wants it can have a "complete" set of Heresy rules based on 7th. Once that point is reached, they can switch over to 8th if they intend to carry on into The Scouring or whichever other "historical" period of 40K they choose to cover, and could release a set of final compilation Red Books in 8th as well if they think there would be sufficient demand.
Hell, I might well get an 8th Ed version of the HH rules, but only if I can finish my existing collection of content first in case I find I don't enjoy 8th.
There was one marine model I liked. Gabriel my boy from the Blood Ravens. Certified cool chapter by Gamgee. The only one guys. Just make stuff for them and you will finally get me to buy space marines.
The odd thing about them sticking with 7th, is just two months ago they said they were going to 8th, right? That doesn't fill me with confidence about their long term plans for the system...
'In the seminar he said that 30k would develop separately to 40k from this point. The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.'
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.
I can't say I'm surprised, and I definitely respect Forge World wanting to go in this direction. They've always struck me as a company that likes their models and fluff more than writing rules. But inevitably their parent company comes out with a new edition and then their existing book sales plummet. By having their own core rules that they publish, they can finally have ownership of that development cycle. Hopefully their edition 7.5 is well edited.
I'm so stoked by the sticking with 7th, putting out there own rulebook thing. I am now however tempted to collected all the big expensive books, instead of just the odd one here or there with the legions I most like. (I currently only have two)
It could cause issues, such as what happens if it sells better than 8th? Unlikely given the limited sales channels but if large numbers of current players move to 30k instead of the new system?
Also all the custodes stuff previewed so far looks awesome.
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.
Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.
Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.
Edit double post.I
Well, thats the reason HH is so balanced. Is like a WW2 historical game. Whenever everyone uses the same things, or things that are very similar with slighly differences... is much more easy to balance.
And I'm not saying this to go in favour or against HH or 8th edition. To each their own. I'm glad for both systems to remain different, even if I don't play HH. Thats gives people choice to stick to the ruleset they like more.
And, TBH, I call BS on the "8th don't give us enough deept". I'll wait to see both systems to analize it myself, but 8th isn't sigmar. It isn't as streamlined.
ImAGeek wrote: This is from the comments on BattleBunnies:
'In the seminar he said that 30k would develop separately to 40k from this point. The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.'
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.
Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.
Edit double post.I
Well, thats the reason HH is so balanced. Is like a WW2 historical game. Whenever everyone uses the same things, or things that are very similar with slighly differences... is much more easy to balance.
And I'm not saying this to go in favour or against HH or 8th edition. To each their own. I'm glad for both systems to remain different, even if I don't play HH. Thats gives people choice to stick to the ruleset they like more.
The issue is that plenty of people played one against the other, from what I understand it's pretty common for 40k groups to have one or two guys who pick up 30k because of xyz reason. Those guys are largely boned. Atia, for example has said she likely won't play much anymore because she can't play against 40k anymore.
I don't know what boned meant. And it always sucks when people around you play a game you don't like. But that hasn't nothing to do with 30k vs 40k. It can happen with any other game. Even I don't know, videogames if people stop wargaming
RiTides wrote: The odd thing about them sticking with 7th, is just two months ago they said they were going to 8th, right? That doesn't fill me with confidence about their long term plans for the system...
They said a lot of things.
They said they wouldn't, they said they would, the digital website said they were switching to something that wasn't 7th or 8th, then the website didn't say that. It's actually been a complete mess of communication from FW during this period. My guess is that it took them a few weeks to figure out what they were going to do (I guess the horrible stuff happening with Bligh wasn't helping matters either).
Yeah, sounds like they need time to figure gak out.
Finishing the last few Legions in the same rule set was a pleasant surprise. They can then port everything over to 8th at the same time if they later choose to do so.
Forgeworld never said they were going to 8th edition. They said for the time being, they will stick with 7th edition. Everyone just drew assumptions that they'd transition.
When you look at how they announced all of the 40K stuff would be getting updates to 8th, and their lack of any like message for 30K stuff, it seemed pretty clear that they were not planning on a transition, any time soon.
Galas wrote: I don't know what boned meant. And it always sucks when people around you play a game you don't like. But that hasn't nothing to do with 30k vs 40k. It can happen with any other game. Even I don't know, videogames if people stop wargaming
But this is offtopic, sorry!
Boned is a colloquial term that means 'to be fornicated with'
And the issue isn't that other people play a game they don't like, it's that they WERE playing the SAME game and now they aren't.I
The point is that the initial FAQ let everyone understand that they WILL eventually convert to 8th
A few of you might be wondering how the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 affects Forge World’s Horus Heresy rules and army lists. Well, for the moment, it won’t! You can carry on using the existing Warhammer 40,000 ruleset for your Horus Heresy games.
Which later changed to..
Well, we can let you all know today, Forge World will be talking about the future of Horus Heresy games at Warhammer Fest this year.
And now no one can really tell for sure, what the hell are they actually planning
Quite a few 30k players in my group are mad, mostly because it wont use 40k rules, and that their playgroup got smaller because they cant play 40k players.
Our Judge is saying that anyone who wants to play 30k can FORCE their opponent to the 40k 7th.......
Its kinda dumb
hotsauceman1 wrote: Quite a few 30k players in my group are mad, mostly because it wont use 40k rules, and that their playgroup got smaller because they cant play 40k players.
Our Judge is saying that anyone who wants to play 30k can FORCE their opponent to the 40k 7th.......
Its kinda dumb
The temptation to retaliate would be intense lol. 'Ah, okay well here's my 5 invisible wraithknight list and if that's too intense for how you guys wanna play, I also have a cabal star with Tau'nar Supremecy armor list I wanted to try out!'
A lot of the 30k players in my area are only lose organized and play the majority of their games agiest 40k players.
Splitting the community like this will probably kill a lot of interest in 30k unless gw does more to support the game and make the rule books easier to get ahold of. Digital is OK, but not everyone has a device that can support the books. The actual rule books need to be easier to get ahold of.
Well the announcement has caused a much more visceral reaction on the Australian 30K FB group page.
As in 1 side going on how they are a bit disappointed because they liked the direction 8th was heading, or are disappointing because it would widen the gap between 30k and 40k.
Those in the middle (like me) who don't care either way but understand that first group's worries.
There are those that are really happy with the news because they didn't like 8th.
And then there's the very vocal and abhorrent group that are going around calling anyone who likes 8th peasants, fat feths and a whole manner of slurs and other offensives things (and even terms that intended to cause offence that aren't offensive themselves - like brony).
... yeah it's a mess. And it's absurd. Luckily where I am there's still a rather large 30k crowd so I'll still be able to find opponents. To those of you who aren't as fortunate though, you have my condolences.
CragHack wrote: The point is that the initial FAQ let everyone understand that they WILL eventually convert to 8th
A few of you might be wondering how the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 affects Forge World’s Horus Heresy rules and army lists. Well, for the moment, it won’t! You can carry on using the existing Warhammer 40,000 ruleset for your Horus Heresy games.
Which later changed to..
Well, we can let you all know today, Forge World will be talking about the future of Horus Heresy games at Warhammer Fest this year.
And now no one can really tell for sure, what the hell are they actually planning
Don't forget their statement at the open day that 30K will always be a supplement to the 40K rules. But I guess they were being coy as to which rules?
Actually, I think that the sad news we received today means we may have a very fluid situation. It's understandable that they may be reeling right now, and that the direction of 30K could be clearer or change again some months from now. This decision seems to be about the short term and the path of least resistance, and it remains to be seen if it was chosen due to short-term needs, shortsightedness, or if it's the first part of a longer-term strategy.
I'm totally fine with the HH game remaining in 7th edition. Due to the nature of the armies alot of the problems with 7th didn't manifest , so it's cool.
... yeah it's a mess. And it's absurd. Luckily where I am there's still a rather large 30k crowd so I'll still be able to find opponents. To those of you who aren't as fortunate though, you have my condolences.
There are honestly quite a few of us saying "Good, I hope it isnt play on league Night now" because the local 30k community is kinda toxic.
I know quite a few 30k players who are upset now.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Quite a few 30k players in my group are mad, mostly because it wont use 40k rules, and that their playgroup got smaller because they cant play 40k players.
Our Judge is saying that anyone who wants to play 30k can FORCE their opponent to the 40k 7th.......
Its kinda dumb
Even as a primarily 30k player, I would tell that judge which body part he could make wet...
That is just a sure-fire way to make your scene toxic, if it wasn't already.
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.
Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.
Edit double post.I
Nah each legion has 2 pages of bespoke rules and thats it other than legion specific units. You can do that with a fully functioning core rule set.
Also they are basicly saying aos/8th is shallow which it is and your comment seems to apply to 8th more given the whole bespoke rules every unit.
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.
Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.
Edit double post.I
Nah each legion has 2 pages of bespoke rules and thats it other than legion specific units. You can do that with a fully functioning core rule set.
Also they are basicly saying aos/8th is shallow which it is and your comment seems to apply to 8th more given the whole bespoke rules every unit.
It goes beyond just the 2 pages of rules. It's how those unique rules interact with the base game. Like Initiative, which does not exist in 8th edition.
Yeah, Initiative has been replaced with Move, which would logically be very similar across the Legions (6" in the vast majority of cases for infantry, 5" for Terminators).
Having 20 different ways of playing essentially the same core list does require a high degree of granularity to differentiate between those ways, otherwise there isn't much point having the different characters to the Legions/Black Shields.
40k only needs that degree of difference for 6 Space Marine factions, and some of these are much more different than the Legions are from each other. It is a lot easier to mark them apart because of this.
I don't think it is an indication 8th is too shallow in general, only that a very high level of depth is required for 30k that isn't easily satisfied by 8th (I'm sure they could, with effort, but I think there are many other reasons to stick with 7th for now, as otherwise mentioned in this thread).
Losing initiative and gaining a movement stat is for some reason "low depth"?
Initiative mechanics never added MUCH to the game. they were most of the time all-or-nothing, and very rarely had subtle influences.
Movement? much for subtle influences. a marine moving 5 compared to one moving 6 compared to one moving 7 makes differences in shooting, in assault, in zone control, etc.
Let be honest, they looked for an excuse to put 30k and 40k apart, and this gave them just that.
Well the complete lack of of an actual morale system in 8th would be an issue for 30k. Given that some legions have a strong slant towards using pinning and fear there loss would be felt.
BoomWolf wrote: Losing initiative and gaining a movement stat is for some reason "low depth"?
Initiative mechanics never added MUCH to the game. they were most of the time all-or-nothing, and very rarely had subtle influences.
Movement? much for subtle influences. a marine moving 5 compared to one moving 6 compared to one moving 7 makes differences in shooting, in assault, in zone control, etc.
Let be honest, they looked for an excuse to put 30k and 40k apart, and this gave them just that.
I'm actually really glad 40k and 30k are different systems now.
Actually our gaming group is quite pumped 30k is going to stay with the current ruleset. I dont think 8th edition is going to be all everyone makes it out to be. Just like most GW rules, it will start fairly balanced then as more codexes are released the escalation will start and the rules bloat etc. 30k is fine the way it is and it certainly doesnt need any of the new models in the design process- keeping 30k and 40k different is probably a good thing, and honestly you can put together a 40k army from most 30k collections and vice versa (even with a bit of proxying), now tournament are different but I dont think the majority of folks are tournament players.
ImAGeek wrote: This is from the comments on BattleBunnies:
'In the seminar he said that 30k would develop separately to 40k from this point. The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.'
This has nice bonus that now they can basically change anything they want without worrying about 40k. If they want they could fix all the worst issues of 7th ed. HH fixed lots of issues but there are still some issues. Before they were at the mercy of main studio since it would be harder to change core rules. Now they can do that easily.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote: Yeah, sounds like they need time to figure gak out.
Which is like "wtf". GW has been working on 8th ed for years. 2 years minimum, 3 years quite likely. Nobody in the meanwhile mentioned FW where things are going? Sounds like they heard it when it was announced to public...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hotsauceman1 wrote: Quite a few 30k players in my group are mad, mostly because it wont use 40k rules, and that their playgroup got smaller because they cant play 40k players.
Our Judge is saying that anyone who wants to play 30k can FORCE their opponent to the 40k 7th.......
Its kinda dumb
If there's 30k tournament kinda obvious opponents need to play 7th ed...If it's not tournament what judge and what forcing? Outside tournaments nobody can force me to play what I don't want. Hell even in tournament they can't force me to play what I don't want.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CragHack wrote: Don't forget that it's most likely not gonna be the 7th we know. There might as well be movement values and iniciative stat..
Yeah they could introduce that if they wanted. Biggest problem would be army books. They would either need to release new red books with M stats(when they did last version?) along side and/or PDF with M value for every unit.
But yeah just one thing they could do if they want to.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Quite a few 30k players in my group are mad, mostly because it wont use 40k rules, and that their playgroup got smaller because they cant play 40k players.
Our Judge is saying that anyone who wants to play 30k can FORCE their opponent to the 40k 7th.......
Its kinda dumb
If there's 30k tournament kinda obvious opponents need to play 7th ed...If it's not tournament what judge and what forcing? Outside tournaments nobody can force me to play what I don't want. Hell even in tournament they can't force me to play what I don't want.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Quite a few 30k players in my group are mad, mostly because it wont use 40k rules, and that their playgroup got smaller because they cant play 40k players.
Our Judge is saying that anyone who wants to play 30k can FORCE their opponent to the 40k 7th.......
Its kinda dumb
If there's 30k tournament kinda obvious opponents need to play 7th ed...If it's not tournament what judge and what forcing? Outside tournaments nobody can force me to play what I don't want. Hell even in tournament they can't force me to play what I don't want.
ITs a 40k league night.
Ok... 40K is the operative word here. They are two separate game systems already, that aren't exactly meant to be played together. This would be like someone showing up to a Age of Sigmar event, with an 8th Edition High Elf army, and demanding the Ironjaws play with those rules. It's ridiculous.
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.
Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.
Edit double post.I
Nah each legion has 2 pages of bespoke rules and thats it other than legion specific units. You can do that with a fully functioning core rule set.
Also they are basicly saying aos/8th is shallow which it is and your comment seems to apply to 8th more given the whole bespoke rules every unit.
You can think that if you want but the truth is that it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing.
You think that 8th is shallow and that's why they are choosing to stick to 7th.
I think that HH armies are shallow so they need the extra gunk that 40k ditched to hide how similar everything is.
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.
Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.
Edit double post.I
Nah each legion has 2 pages of bespoke rules and thats it other than legion specific units. You can do that with a fully functioning core rule set.
Also they are basicly saying aos/8th is shallow which it is and your comment seems to apply to 8th more given the whole bespoke rules every unit.
You can think that if you want but the truth is that it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing.
You think that 8th is shallow and that's why they are choosing to stick to 7th.
I think that HH armies are shallow so they need the extra gunk that 40k ditched to hide how similar everything is.
Either one of us, or even both. We'll never know.
That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?
You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.
I'm curious to see if FW tries to fix the flaws with the 3rd-7th ed system without throwing out the baby with the bathwater since they're allowed to make their own ruleset now.
Yodhrin wrote: That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?
You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.
8th ed is the one that has bespoken everywhere. Generally the more bespoken rules you have the shallower the core rules are. So 8th ed is the shallow one.
Kings of War is a very shallow game and it works just right.
Not the type of gameplay that I like. But to me words like "shallow", "bloated", "complex", etc... are often overused as if they alone mean something about what makes a good (or bad) ruleset.
Shallow =/= Bad. IT means its simpler, it means you have to learn less and less rules
D&D 5th edition is more shallow than Pathfinder, but pathfinder hurts my head.
That's probably enough on the general "shallow vs deep" discussion tangent - this is the Forge World News thread, and we're getting pretty far afield from it.
So, let's get back to the thread topic, please - thanks all.
CragHack wrote: Got me confused here too. For one, sticking to 7th is pretty logical as phasing out that many volumes of HH books, that cost 70-80 quid each would most likely cause a massive shitstorm.
On the other hand, there's the question: for how long? Will they just stick to 7th, until they release pretty much everything and then leave it as a half-dead setting with minor tweaks one in a while? Because they would eventually have to phase out all the books anyways..
I would hope that they stick with 7th until a sensible break-point like the Siege of Terra book/s so that everyone who wants it can have a "complete" set of Heresy rules based on 7th. Once that point is reached, they can switch over to 8th if they intend to carry on into The Scouring or whichever other "historical" period of 40K they choose to cover, and could release a set of final compilation Red Books in 8th as well if they think there would be sufficient demand.
Hell, I might well get an 8th Ed version of the HH rules, but only if I can finish my existing collection of content first in case I find I don't enjoy 8th.
Yup this is what I see happening. A total 7th edition set for the whole heresy up to the final round hype at Terra. Then a clean break into 8th edition stuff with or the scouring for like ever all the different space marine shoulder pads they could release would be epic.
Maybe they are just waiting until the nu marines get their multi part kit so they can sell nu marine shoulder pads along with nu marine ' cool awesome stuff'
I am happy they are doing the 7th full rules for the heresy tho, at least it is all self contained in one edition...ok well 2 but they are so close anyways, like 6th and 7th are like closer then kissing cousins......
Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.
Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?
In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.
Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.
Edit double post.I
Nah each legion has 2 pages of bespoke rules and thats it other than legion specific units. You can do that with a fully functioning core rule set.
Also they are basicly saying aos/8th is shallow which it is and your comment seems to apply to 8th more given the whole bespoke rules every unit.
You can think that if you want but the truth is that it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing.
You think that 8th is shallow and that's why they are choosing to stick to 7th.
I think that HH armies are shallow so they need the extra gunk that 40k ditched to hide how similar everything is.
Either one of us, or even both. We'll never know.
That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?
You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.
However, that excuse is pure bul gak, because 8th is MORE granular than 7th ever were, thanks to them stepping out of the characteristic 10 limits, the ability to stack faction keywords (so you can have, for example a "word bearers" and then "gal vorbak" as two keywords)
Plus the fact most rules shift from the genetic rulebook, directly into the units-means you can have different units have slightly different variations of the same rule withou causing a fuss.
The movement stat is a whole new degree of granduality.
The only grandualties 8th "lost" are initiative-and initiative hardly ever mattered, because its a power toggle all-or-nothing switch of "who's first", so its hardly difficult to mimic, and the vehicle armor values/damage table, who are made far more gradual with heavy multi-wound "MC" stats, especially as we seen the big things not being shy from 20+ wounds.
An 8th characther has more wounds than a 7th-so its more gradual there.
Weapon profiles can do different amounts of damage-again more gradual.
8th is not less gradual than 7th, its more. you can have units who's tiny difference is that one walks a tiny bit faster without the need of special rules, and if you need something complex-the system assumes that each unit has its own special rules to begin with, rather than just stacking army-wide rules (who still exist.)
The reason not to shift 30k to 8th, is that its TONS of work, as you can't really use the "plug extension to main marine list" system properly, and you'll need to create a whole lot of new dataslates and rules.
It would be a lot of work that they rather avoid. converting the 40kFW stuff is something they didn't have a choice about, but 30k-they had a choice.
Do hard work to convert, or keep the lazy path and stick to 7th, while taking the excuse to properly seperate the systems (no more legions versus xenos! now we can really be all marines all the time!)
They took the lazy route with a seperation excuse.
Its a valid choice, but the excuse they gave is bs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Numarines have compatible shoulder pads, so no need to do anything special for them though.
It's also pretty much impossible to replay battles in the horus heresy book series and have it feel like in books in 8th ed. Possible in 7th ed.
I read fallen angels recently and laughed how badly 8th ed would be usable for that story. It's not even implausible events but flat out what CANNOT happen in 8th ed period.
Yeah, converting to 8e won't be hard, but it will involve lots more work for an already overstretched team, invalidating existing work (not the published stuff, but the pre publication Angelus and whatever mechanic they have set for the remaining legions) and a whole bunch of centralised decisions, which will be difficult while they recover from abruptly losing their head of development.
Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.
What are you talking about?
Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…
Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.
What are you talking about?
Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…
Refers to 8th ed psychic lores(at least ones shown so far) having 3 powers.
Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.
What are you talking about?
Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…
Refers to 8th ed psychic lores(at least ones shown so far) having 3 powers.
If that's so, why here in the Forge World thread and not the main 8th edition thread?
tneva82 wrote: It's also pretty much impossible to replay battles in the horus heresy book series and have it feel like in books in 8th ed. Possible in 7th ed.
I read fallen angels recently and laughed how badly 8th ed would be usable for that story. It's not even implausible events but flat out what CANNOT happen in 8th ed period.
Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.
What are you talking about?
Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…
Refers to 8th ed psychic lores(at least ones shown so far) having 3 powers.
Do we really need all the existing powers?
I mean, half of them are variations of the same thing-especially when witchfires are concerned.
3 powers per lore is enough is you do a truly distinct trio for every lore.
tneva82 wrote: It's also pretty much impossible to replay battles in the horus heresy book series and have it feel like in books in 8th ed. Possible in 7th ed.
I read fallen angels recently and laughed how badly 8th ed would be usable for that story. It's not even implausible events but flat out what CANNOT happen in 8th ed period.
7th ed HH>8th ed 40k.
Do give an example.
Dark angels lie in ambush, tank lumbers in, melta gun fires, tank explodes. Easiest one of them all.
Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.
What are you talking about?
Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…
Refers to 8th ed psychic lores(at least ones shown so far) having 3 powers.
Do we really need all the existing powers?
I mean, half of them are variations of the same thing-especially when witchfires are concerned.
3 powers per lore is enough is you do a truly distinct trio for every lore.
Did I say anything about them being enough/not enough?
Though means lvl 3 psykers are too certain in them and generally psykers in a whole too reliable in getting the killer spells they really want.
Luminous Lizard wrote: What's the usual turn around for models announced at warhammerfest? Particularly the Custodes.
I'm hoping the heavy dread is out sometime in June as I'm going warhammerworld in July
It depends, although the heavy dread was available to buy at warhammerfest so that won't be long at all.
Yeah; announced models, like the ones pictured in the seminars, are kind of a "forthcoming attractions" preview of the year ahead (or even longer if we're talking about a certain set of knightly decals…) but models they have on pre-sale like the Telemon Heavy Dreadnought or the Goblin positionals are usually on general release in weeks.
I know some people will always bemoan the lack of choice, but honestly I'd prefer if there were only 3 options that were all generally useful or good, instead of having two or even three times as many options, but still only being left with a couple that are actually worth using. I don't see the point in being given a "choice" that I'll never willingly want to use. That's not really a "choice" in my opinion.
And I'm sure it's been said before, but if the whole purpose of having multiple powers and having so many that are either extremely situational or just plain bad was to "balance" the good ones, because the powers were always randomly selected, then that's just terrible game design. I don't mind one bit that every "lore" only has three spells if it turns out those spells are all equally good. As for being able to get them reliably, you should be able to get what you want in the first place. It shouldn't be random and none of the powers should be so powerful that being able to pick the one you want breaks the game.
I'm not sure why this discussion started in the FW thread and not the 8th edition thread, but whatever. Anyway, speaking of FW, I love the new tigershark and I wanna know when that's going to come out. I'm glad I didn't buy the new barracuda yet, so I can get a pair of them and a tigershark all at once.
Sidstyler wrote: And I'm sure it's been said before, but if the whole purpose of having multiple powers and having so many that are either extremely situational or just plain bad was to "balance" the good ones, because the powers were always randomly selected, then that's just terrible game design. I don't mind one bit that every "lore" only has three spells if it turns out those spells are all equally good. As for being able to get them reliably, you should be able to get what you want in the first place. It shouldn't be random and none of the powers should be so powerful that being able to pick the one you want breaks the game.
Except spells WON'T be equal. So with the pick what you want you will just see certain spells picked up rather than others.
I have to say, I find the excuse that 8th lacks the depth for Legions to work to be complete and total BS. It's mainly the Legion special rules and Rites of War that separate the Legions and all of them should be pretty easy to convert across, so this either points to incompetence, laziness or (most likely) a lack of staff/time but dressing it up in spite.
Sidstyler wrote: I know some people will always bemoan the lack of choice, but honestly I'd prefer if there were only 3 options that were all generally useful or good, instead of having two or even three times as many options, but still only being left with a couple that are actually worth using. I don't see the point in being given a "choice" that I'll never willingly want to use. That's not really a "choice" in my opinion.
And I'm sure it's been said before, but if the whole purpose of having multiple powers and having so many that are either extremely situational or just plain bad was to "balance" the good ones, because the powers were always randomly selected, then that's just terrible game design. I don't mind one bit that every "lore" only has three spells if it turns out those spells are all equally good. As for being able to get them reliably, you should be able to get what you want in the first place. It shouldn't be random and none of the powers should be so powerful that being able to pick the one you want breaks the game.
I'm not sure why this discussion started in the FW thread and not the 8th edition thread, but whatever. Anyway, speaking of FW, I love the new tigershark and I wanna know when that's going to come out. I'm glad I didn't buy the new barracuda yet, so I can get a pair of them and a tigershark all at once.
Obviously everyone would prefer many options that are all equally worth taking, but I'll take half a dozen options where only three are "good" over three options which are all "good" any day, because my priority is not always making the most efficient list I can. Even if some of the options are total garbage from the perspective of trying to win games in a competitive setting, I'd rather have the option to choose them than not, because not everyone plays in a competitive setting all the time, sometimes the goal is to find the rules that best represent a character that's been created on the table; and while anyone can make up any rule they want for casual play, having stuff already there in the "official" material just makes things easier.
Basically, as long as the "good" choices are there, why would you ever want less options? And even if you don't want them, why would you prefer a system that takes them away from people who do when their existence has no impact on you at all?
Imateria wrote: I have to say, I find the excuse that 8th lacks the depth for Legions to work to be complete and total BS. It's mainly the Legion special rules and Rites of War that separate the Legions and all of them should be pretty easy to convert across, so this either points to incompetence, laziness or (most likely) a lack of staff/time but dressing it up in spite.
Wow, so much bigger than Horus (his pose is not helping) ... if its correct fluff wise I am alright with it but it looks a little ridiculous.
Still, I am looking forward to painting Magnus as the TS slowly become my favorite HH Legion because of their color scheme as well as models which FW has put out so far.
Fireball wrote: Wow, so much bigger than Horus (his pose is not helping) ... if its correct fluff wise I am alright with it but it looks a little ridiculous.
Still, I am looking forward to painting Magnus as the TS slowly become my favorite HH Legion because of their color scheme as well as models which FW has put out so far.
It is correct fluffwise - Magnus is said to be the largest/tallest of all the Primarchs (and can use his psychic might to alter his height if needed, though that may only be after he ascends to Daemonhhod.)
Fireball wrote: Wow, so much bigger than Horus (his pose is not helping) ... if its correct fluff wise I am alright with it but it looks a little ridiculous.
Still, I am looking forward to painting Magnus as the TS slowly become my favorite HH Legion because of their color scheme as well as models which FW has put out so far.
Since Magnus is a newer model they have surely refined the sculpting and scale a bit, but yes, Magnus towered over his already freakishly tall brethren quite a bit. He also shifted shape and size a lot, due to the whole BIOTIC (psychic) GOD thing.
And I couldn't agree more with what you're saying about the Thousand Sons legion. I am in the process of painting mine just like FW, with candy red over golden metallics (using an airbrush). It gives a fantastic result, and I can't wait to paint the big red guy himself
alleus wrote: And I couldn't agree more with what you're saying about the Thousand Sons legion. I am in the process of painting mine just like FW, with candy red over golden metallics (using an airbrush). It gives a fantastic result, and I can't wait to paint the big red guy himself
I do not do any airbrushing ... I was not happy with the metallic results I achieved so I went with the "plain" red. I still like it very much. I still need to paint Geigor and Leman Russ ... but after that I will focus on Magnus, Sekhmet Terminators and some conversion which shall represent the Rehati ...
I don't think we are picking up how much Alan's death will impact on the HH. Alan was pretty much the creative brain behind the whole game.
I think we need to give the company some time to sort some things out.
Those big black books we have will be his legacy. It will be interesting to see were the heresy goes going forward but it's lost it master and it's going to struggle a little i imagine.
Knockagh wrote: I don't think we are picking up how much Alan's death will impact on the HH. Alan was pretty much the creative brain behind the whole game.
I think we need to give the company some time to sort some things out.
Those big black books we have will be his legacy. It will be interesting to see were the heresy goes going forward but it's lost it master and it's going to struggle a little i imagine.
Yeah, my feelings on this are complicated. On one hand, I think the decision to develop their own rules based on 7th -- which will be virtually identical to current 7th, let's be honest about that -- puts them firmly on the wrong path with HH. They're a small shop that already struggles mightily with completing jobs on time and with supporting their released products. And now they're going to own the ruleset also? Um.
On the other hand, AB's passing is an absolutely huge blow for them. They lost their creative genius and product champion all in one blow. The future of HH is far murkier now than some seem to want to believe, IMO. They're facing long-term issues, but also important short-term ones, and in that context I guess I understand their need to keep the status quo for a while until more can be sorted out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Given how many legion rules revolve around Morale or Sweeping Advances, and Morale being simplified as much as it has been in 8th...
No, it wouldn't be an easy switch. Not in the slightest.
I don't think it's easy as in something you can do overnight. But I don't think it's nearly the task people make it out to be. The key is to stop thinking like it's 7th edition and use the tools that 8th edition presents.
For instance, I see people concerned about EC, since advantages like Flawless Execution are initiative based. So what about giving them a EC-specific stratagem that's the equivalent of Counter-Offensive but costs only 1 CP? That's off the top of my head and just one imperfect example, but I don't think it'd be that difficult to develop rules that aren't exact translations, but still keep the right spirit and flavor.
Although again, I think they have bigger fish to fry at the FW studio than just figuring out how to translate things into 8th.
Knockagh wrote: I don't think we are picking up how much Alan's death will impact on the HH. Alan was pretty much the creative brain behind the whole game.
I think we need to give the company some time to sort some things out.
Those big black books we have will be his legacy. It will be interesting to see were the heresy goes going forward but it's lost it master and it's going to struggle a little i imagine.
Yeah, my feelings on this are complicated. On one hand, I think the decision to develop their own rules based on 7th -- which will be virtually identical to current 7th, let's be honest about that -- puts them firmly on the wrong path with HH. They're a small shop that already struggles mightily with completing jobs on time and with supporting their released products. And now they're going to own the ruleset also? Um.
On the other hand, AB's passing is an absolutely huge blow for them. They lost their creative genius and product champion all in one blow. The future of HH is far murkier now than some seem to want to believe, IMO. They're facing long-term issues, but also important short-term ones, and in that context I guess I understand their need to keep the status quo for a while until more can be sorted out.
The over arching plot points of the remaining FW and BL books should have been ironed out back in December: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/ar/t1999.htm when Laurie was leaving. I am sure it is just the detail from the books that is left now, FW is so much larger than it was at the beginning of the HH series there must be people who can pick that up as it shouldn't be as difficult as devising the entire direction of a many year much loved series... My guess would be Andy Hoare moves back from running the Specialist Games team to get HH over the line.
Finishing the series in 7th (or 7.5) would be an important move. It means that every army would have rules in the edition the HH started in, so people can make the choice to stay in 7th or move forward to 8th when the time comes. Plus FW gets to double dip when they do move to 8th.
Knockagh wrote: I don't think we are picking up how much Alan's death will impact on the HH. Alan was pretty much the creative brain behind the whole game.
I think we need to give the company some time to sort some things out.
Those big black books we have will be his legacy. It will be interesting to see were the heresy goes going forward but it's lost it master and it's going to struggle a little i imagine.
Yeah, my feelings on this are complicated. On one hand, I think the decision to develop their own rules based on 7th -- which will be virtually identical to current 7th, let's be honest about that -- puts them firmly on the wrong path with HH. They're a small shop that already struggles mightily with completing jobs on time and with supporting their released products. And now they're going to own the ruleset also? Um.
On the other hand, AB's passing is an absolutely huge blow for them. They lost their creative genius and product champion all in one blow. The future of HH is far murkier now than some seem to want to believe, IMO. They're facing long-term issues, but also important short-term ones, and in that context I guess I understand their need to keep the status quo for a while until more can be sorted out.
The over arching plot points of the remaining FW and BL books should have been ironed out back in December: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/ar/t1999.htm when Laurie was leaving. I am sure it is just the detail from the books that is left now, FW is so much larger than it was at the beginning of the HH series there must be people who can pick that up as it shouldn't be as difficult as devising the entire direction of a many year much loved series... My guess would be Andy Hoare moves back from running the Specialist Games team to get HH over the line.
gorgon wrote: Alan did a lot more than just fill in details.
Yes, and as I said, that would have all been documented back in December, when Laurie was leaving, as Laurie also had a big input to both BL and FWHH books.
I'm pretty disappointed with the decision to stick with 7e. Primarily because I dislike remembering two separate rulesets for the same army (since I use the White Scars in 40k as well), but also because it ensures that the steady stream of players moving from 40k to 30k will slow dramatically. No longer will people be able to quickly and easily jump across after learning one new codex.
I think that it will be very interesting to see how things go from here. I know that Alan Bligh was very important to them, but they have more than broken the back of the Heresy at this stage, and and we are probably looking at no more than three more books; it's likely that they prepared a detailed roadmap to go forward with. On the other hand, we might see them flounder to recover from this loss. It's not like FW released new books very quickly regardless though, so we'll have to wait and see for a while; the first test will be how long it takes them to publish their new rulebook.
Losing the main guy behind a project always hurts even if all the solid ground work has already been done. FW mentioned the inferno had been delayed heavily by the change in the psychic system. And that was just about the only change between 6th-7th. It would be a lot of work.
Also I remember quite a few threads hoping they would stick to 7th with HH. so all those shiny (expensive) black books wouldn't be invalidated.
one thing up front, I was really saddened by the totally unexpected death of AB, way too early, really sad.
Whenever someone so young dies it clearly shows your own mortality... :(
Charles Rampant wrote: I'm pretty disappointed with the decision to stick with 7e. Primarily because I dislike remembering two separate rulesets for the same army (since I use the White Scars in 40k as well), but also because it ensures that the steady stream of players moving from 40k to 30k will slow dramatically. No longer will people be able to quickly and easily jump across after learning one new codex.
I can only agree, to stick with 7th is IMO a HUGE mistake.
I have all 7 books and I will keep them, simply because they are just very good background books.
But everything after 40K 4th edition was way above me, I like all the changes GW announced so far for 40K, so to stick with 7th was a big blow.
I will do some games with 40K 8th and after that will use my 30K minis as stand ins, or write my own conversion.
This could be actually a pretty cool community project!
Losing the main guy behind a project always hurts even if all the solid ground work has already been done. FW mentioned the inferno had been delayed heavily by the change in the psychic system. And that was just about the only change between 6th-7th.
It would be a lot of work.
Also I remember quite a few threads hoping they would stick to 7th with HH. so all those shiny (expensive) black books wouldn't be invalidated.
Reprinting the big black books with new rules would annoy me, reprinting the "codex" sized red books would not. I can't remember the last time I needed to take the big books for a game, just the red books.
Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...
On the other hand, GW is doing what a lot of companies do and openly criticizing 7th in a lot of the new 8th edition preview materials. That makes it a little bit awkward on appearance. "Man, we're so happy 8th is going to rock, you don't have to worry about any of these silly issues from 7th!....unless...you're still playing 7th because we're keeping HH there".
The more successful 8th is, the more odd it will be for HH. I mean, objectively - if you own both armies and play both games, and find that 8th is 200% more fun for you - how much will that diminish your interest in HH?
Very curious to see how this rolls out and if they change position later.
Elbows wrote: Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...
On the other hand, GW is doing what a lot of companies do and openly criticizing 7th in a lot of the new 8th edition preview materials. That makes it a little bit awkward on appearance. "Man, we're so happy 8th is going to rock, you don't have to worry about any of these silly issues from 7th!....unless...you're still playing 7th because we're keeping HH there".
The more successful 8th is, the more odd it will be for HH. I mean, objectively - if you own both armies and play both games, and find that 8th is 200% more fun for you - how much will that diminish your interest in HH?
Very curious to see how this rolls out and if they change position later.
They are criticizing 7th for 40k. It is pretty well-known that 30k was considered generally fine under 7th and many folks were hoping that this would be what came to pass.
I am fine either way, honestly. It is just now a Specialist Game and not a ruleset under the standard game format. Not too big a deal, really. And when/if they go to 8th, I hope it is a nice rollout and not haphazard.
Elbows wrote: Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...
On the other hand, GW is doing what a lot of companies do and openly criticizing 7th in a lot of the new 8th edition preview materials. That makes it a little bit awkward on appearance. "Man, we're so happy 8th is going to rock, you don't have to worry about any of these silly issues from 7th!....unless...you're still playing 7th because we're keeping HH there".
The more successful 8th is, the more odd it will be for HH. I mean, objectively - if you own both armies and play both games, and find that 8th is 200% more fun for you - how much will that diminish your interest in HH?
Very curious to see how this rolls out and if they change position later.
They are criticizing 7th for 40k. It is pretty well-known that 30k was considered generally fine under 7th and many folks were hoping that this would be what came to pass.
I am fine either way, honestly. It is just now a Specialist Game and not a ruleset under the standard game format. Not too big a deal, really. And when/if they go to 8th, I hope it is a nice rollout and not haphazard.
It seems fine enough when its marine vs marines. i dont think 30k will be any different in 8th since its ultimately a mirror match still (for the most part)
Elbows wrote: Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...
On the other hand, GW is doing what a lot of companies do and openly criticizing 7th in a lot of the new 8th edition preview materials. That makes it a little bit awkward on appearance. "Man, we're so happy 8th is going to rock, you don't have to worry about any of these silly issues from 7th!....unless...you're still playing 7th because we're keeping HH there".
The more successful 8th is, the more odd it will be for HH. I mean, objectively - if you own both armies and play both games, and find that 8th is 200% more fun for you - how much will that diminish your interest in HH?
Very curious to see how this rolls out and if they change position later.
They are criticizing 7th for 40k. It is pretty well-known that 30k was considered generally fine under 7th and many folks were hoping that this would be what came to pass.
I am fine either way, honestly. It is just now a Specialist Game and not a ruleset under the standard game format. Not too big a deal, really. And when/if they go to 8th, I hope it is a nice rollout and not haphazard.
And many folks were hoping it'd change too, because 7th still has plenty of issues. Some issues aren't as apparent in 30K just because of how FW set up the army lists and army selection. But there's still plenty of clunkiness and imbalance baked into the ruleset that 8th edition directly addresses.
If I had to bet, I'd bet on the "new" rulebook being released at the FW Open Day. Although that's a fairly tight timeline for them and they tend to miss those. Given that they seemed almost overwhelmed with getting one black book out per year even with AB steering the ship, I worry about how they'll keep up going forward.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Go to a 30k tournament, its almost ALWAYS Marines with just a few of those armies.
Last one I went to on the weekend out of about 56 players, I saw 3 Knight armies (including mine), 5 custodies armies, a cult army with an Ordinatus. I didn't see a Mechanicum army this time though, which was lucky as they are the kryptonite for my Knights. There were a few Marine armies with Demon allies and a couple of tank only Marine armies as well. So about 70% of the armies taken were Marine based. I got lucky and played a Marine tank company, the Ordinatus list, a Custodies list, with standard marine lists for my remaining 2 games. I have yet to see Solar Aux. in the wild and that makes me sad.
Elbows wrote:Definitely a curious choice. On one hand (as mentioned numerous times) it won't invalidates $500-1000 worth of books a lot of you folks have...
The black books only become invalidated if they update the fluff in them and/or replace the rules only in the black books. That is highly unlikely. Replacing the red books and/or issuing the new index books is expected. We have already had replacements for the Legion red book and the Mechanicum lists have also been updated since the original as their red book supersedes the early lists for most people. I can't remember the last time I needed to look in the first four black books for rules. Replacing one £32 book or purchasing a £15 index isn't that expensive.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Go to a 30k tournament, its almost ALWAYS Marines with just a few of those armies.
Last one I went to on the weekend out of about 56 players, I saw 3 Knight armies (including mine), 5 custodies armies, a cult army with an Ordinatus. .
Yeah, custodes were already showing up by the handfuls at the March AdeptiCon HH events. Painted, even!!!
At least at AdeptiCon HH events, I've been seeing more and more Mechanicum lists with their...weird weaponry. "What's that? What's it do? K. What's that? What's it do? k."
The black books only become invalidated if they update the fluff in them and/or replace the rules only in the black books. That is highly unlikely. Replacing the red books and/or issuing the new index books is expected. We have already had replacements for the Legion red book and the Mechanicum lists have also been updated since the original as their red book supersedes the early lists for most people. I can't remember the last time I needed to look in the first four black books for rules. Replacing one £32 book or purchasing a £15 index isn't that expensive.
Agreed 100%. A number of the Black Books have already had units invalidated by the red books, anyway. The Anvilus Dreadclaw costs 115 points now (was 100 points) AND now has the standard drop pod's Inertial Guidance System. Apothecaries can join almost any unit now, instead of the list in the first black book. Legion Tactical Support squads have had a point adjustment, as have the bikes and a few other units.
If you make a list from the black books and come to a tournament, there is a significant chance your list isn't legal with the amount of point changes that have been made. Ergo, your black books, from a list building stance are ALREADY outdated.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Go to a 30k tournament, its almost ALWAYS Marines with just a few of those armies.
Last one I went to on the weekend out of about 56 players, I saw 3 Knight armies (including mine), 5 custodies armies, a cult army with an Ordinatus. .
Yeah, custodes were already showing up by the handfuls at the March AdeptiCon HH events. Painted, even!!!
At least at AdeptiCon HH events, I've been seeing more and more Mechanicum lists with their...weird weaponry. "What's that? What's it do? K. What's that? What's it do? k."
The black books only become invalidated if they update the fluff in them and/or replace the rules only in the black books. That is highly unlikely. Replacing the red books and/or issuing the new index books is expected. We have already had replacements for the Legion red book and the Mechanicum lists have also been updated since the original as their red book supersedes the early lists for most people. I can't remember the last time I needed to look in the first four black books for rules. Replacing one £32 book or purchasing a £15 index isn't that expensive.
Agreed 100%. A number of the Black Books have already had units invalidated by the red books, anyway. The Anvilus Dreadclaw costs 115 points now (was 100 points) AND now has the standard drop pod's Inertial Guidance System. Apothecaries can join almost any unit now, instead of the list in the first black book. Legion Tactical Support squads have had a point adjustment, as have the bikes and a few other units.
If you make a list from the black books and come to a tournament, there is a significant chance your list isn't legal with the amount of point changes that have been made. Ergo, your black books, from a list building stance are ALREADY outdated.
The fluff and pictures are still good.
I can make a list from my black books that's perfectly legal just fine, because I took a page worth of notes from someone's red book. You're making it sound like the level of disparity between the black book rules and updated red book rules is equivalent to the disparity between two entirely different versions of the Heresy written for different editions of the core rules, in a scenario where "different editions" is more like 2nd to 3rd than 6th to 7th. In fact, the black/red disparity is more like an FAQ update.
The red books are useful, but they're not required outside of a handful of edge cases; plenty of folk don't own them and have no intention of owning them until the most comprehensive versions are released circa-/post-Terra, so switching to 8th actually would be an additional expense.
Look I get that plenty of folk on Dakka don't have to care about this kind of thing, but some folk actually do have to budget their hobby purchases quite carefully and every needless rulebook replacement is one less purchase of models for their army.
Yodhrin wrote: In fact, the black/red disparity is more like an FAQ update.
Sadly, for right or wrong, these "stealth updates" were not covered in an FAQ. If you don't know about them, then you aren't playing by the most recent rules. I say you're underplaying the extent of the changes that FW made to the Hersey armies.
Look I get that plenty of folk on Dakka don't have to care about this kind of thing, but some folk actually do have to budget their hobby purchases quite carefully and every needless rulebook replacement is one less purchase of models for their army.
Coming out with 8th edition rules does not invalidate Black Books 1-7. The fluff and scenarios are still there. I will repeat and stick to my statement that the rules for the black books were invalidated with the first red book "stealth update". Period.
Needless replacement? I say needed and overdue. I HATE 7th edition and would like for FW to hurry up and port all of the Legions into an 8th edition format as soon as the finish the last couple in a 7th edition format.
Furthermore, I also budget my hobby purchases. One part of my budget is having the right rules for my current army. It sucks, but it's part of the expense.
Charles Rampant wrote: I'm pretty disappointed with the decision to stick with 7e. Primarily because I dislike remembering two separate rulesets for the same army (since I use the White Scars in 40k as well)
I would not worry 8th is based on AoS so a lobotomised chimp could play it.
Seriously I give it 4 games of 8th as it stands before you even start missing formations, a functioning morale system or anything to add some depth.
8th is a game designed to get AoS players to buy Restartes to go with there sigmarines, it also seems to have been aimed at TO's to minimise rules queries and speed up games so they can fit more paying players in.
I think that we'll see loads of Custodes armies for the same reason that I saw loads of Grey Knights back when I restarted the hobby in 5e; a new, elite, highly fluff important, army. That appeals to a LOT of people, especially those who like to paint a small army and still play full sized games. Meanwhile, nobody remembers the Solar Auxilia because they cost so much that I've never seen anyone mention collecting them, nor does anyone in my entire country seem to play them, judging from our Facebook chat.
I don't own the black books, so that concern is not one that I possess. But I have to admit that the concern that 8e won't reflect marine on marine combat well is an odd one; that's something like 50% of games, considering how popular Space Marines of various loyalist and heretical kinds are in 40k. I mean, 40k is the Space Marine game, if we got right down to it.
Elbows said above that if 40k 8th edition is really popular, it'd be weird and unfun to switch between it and a version of 7e, especially if you enjoy 8e more. We should be fair and observe that street goes both ways - some are happy since they don't like what they see of 8th. But for me, I'm loving everything that I'm seeing, and I'm really not looking forward to fighting against MCs with vehicles, and sitting through the psychic phase, just because FW decided not to update their rules. In a possible future, I end up preferring 8e so much that I'll want to step back from running 30k events in order to not have to deal with 7e again. As a mainly Orks player, I have vanishingly little love for 6th and 7th editions.
gorgon wrote: Yeah, give it just a little time, and you'll see more and more Custodes armies.
*Hides Free Talons of the Emporer is Got under the table*
Er...what?
The GW talons of the emporor, my friend got one sent to him by accident instead of what he wanted.
He gave it to me
Its a joke about the fact that we are seeing more & more custodes
Charles Rampant wrote: I'm pretty disappointed with the decision to stick with 7e. Primarily because I dislike remembering two separate rulesets for the same army (since I use the White Scars in 40k as well)
I would not worry 8th is based on AoS so a lobotomised chimp could play it.
Seriously I give it 4 games of 8th as it stands before you even start missing formations, a functioning morale system or anything to add some depth.
8th is a game designed to get AoS players to buy Restartes to go with there[u] sigmarines, it also seems to have been aimed at TO's to minimise rules queries and speed up games so they can fit more paying players in.
Charles Rampant wrote: I think that we'll see loads of Custodes armies for the same reason that I saw loads of Grey Knights back when I restarted the hobby in 5e; a new, elite, highly fluff important, army. That appeals to a LOT of people, especially those who like to paint a small army and still play full sized games.
Yodhrin wrote: In fact, the black/red disparity is more like an FAQ update.
Sadly, for right or wrong, these "stealth updates" were not covered in an FAQ. If you don't know about them, then you aren't playing by the most recent rules. I say you're underplaying the extent of the changes that FW made to the Hersey armies.
I was talking about the magnitude of the changes. An FAQ is not equivalent to a new edition of the game with a 2nd-to-3rd level reworking of the core rules, and the changes made in the red books relative to the black books are far closer to the former than the latter.
Look I get that plenty of folk on Dakka don't have to care about this kind of thing, but some folk actually do have to budget their hobby purchases quite carefully and every needless rulebook replacement is one less purchase of models for their army.
Coming out with 8th edition rules does not invalidate Black Books 1-7. The fluff and scenarios are still there. I will repeat and stick to my statement that the rules for the black books were invalidated with the first red book "stealth update". Period.
You're simply wrong. I know you're wrong, because I can sit here with a page of notes and my black books and make perfectly valid army lists. The rules content in them still has value that they would no longer have if FW had chosen to switch to 8th.
Needless replacement? I say needed and overdue. I HATE 7th edition and would like for FW to hurry up and port all of the Legions into an 8th edition format as soon as the finish the last couple in a 7th edition format.
Furthermore, I also budget my hobby purchases. One part of my budget is having the right rules for my current army. It sucks, but it's part of the expense.
But again, you're missing the point - people already have the right rules for their current army with the black books and a page of completely free notes. They did budget for them, they did pay for them. Switching to 8th would require them to budget and pay for them a second time unenecessarily, hence needless.
Your black books were outdated until you copied notes from someone else's book. Your point is still wrong.
Look, I get that your shtick is to be edgy and anti-GW, but you have your head in the sand if you think they would never go to a new edition.
They are delaying it, which is good to complete the
Legions in one rule set, but then they will most likely go to 8th. People can either play in 7th or make the switch, just like the last 6 edition updates.
So the black books are outdated already because of the red books, but wouldn't be outdated if they made the switch to 8th because the scenarios and fluff are still there.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So the black books are outdated already because of the red books, but wouldn't be outdated if they made the switch to 8th because the scenarios and fluff are still there.
Make up your mind!
Nothing inconsistent there. The rules in your black books won't be outdated by a move to 8th edition because they already are outdated.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So the black books are outdated already because of the red books, but wouldn't be outdated if they made the switch to 8th because the scenarios and fluff are still there.
Make up your mind!
poor form.
The rules for the units in the black books are outdated the second red books came out.
You can still use the black books for fluff and scenarios.
But you knew that. You're just being you.
I'm done with your gak for a while. Welcome to ignore.
Charles Rampant wrote: I think that we'll see loads of Custodes armies for the same reason that I saw loads of Grey Knights back when I restarted the hobby in 5e; a new, elite, highly fluff important, army. That appeals to a LOT of people, especially those who like to paint a small army and still play full sized games. Meanwhile, nobody remembers the Solar Auxilia because they cost so much that I've never seen anyone mention collecting them, nor does anyone in my entire country seem to play them, judging from our Facebook chat.
Solar auxilia does indeed suffer from price. It's semi-horde army with elite armies. If you want to stick with GW models(say tournament requires) poor alternatives as well. Even GW "Storm troopers" are more expensive...
"Coming out with 8th edition rules does not invalidate Black Books 1-7."
Then you said that the black books were invalidated with the Red books. Yes, you're talking about the scenarios, I get that, I'm not a idiot, but the scenarios presumably are for 7th Ed rules as well so yes, 8th Ed rules would invalidate the black books.
kronk wrote: The rules for the units in the black books are outdated the second red books came out.
You can still use the black books for fluff and scenarios.
Not if it's 8th, where the scenarios are written for a different rule set.
kronk wrote: But you knew that. You're just being you.
I'm done with your gak for a while. Welcome to ignore.
gorgon wrote: Yeah, give it just a little time, and you'll see more and more Custodes armies.
I'm planning on one. Been out since 6th ed, 8th looks nice enough to come back in. Loving the new stuff so far!
I am working on Custodes. Mainly I love the look of their vehicles. Dreads are OK, but it's the grav tanks and the new flier that sell them for me. Bit afraid of the price point, but I am also kind of hoping the custodes flier comes out by say July 4th.
well, that may be the reason that there seem to be no preorders published today ... I had hopes that they put out Amon so I could make my TS heavy order ...
Damn it, and I waited whole week for Friday's pre-orders, just in case they released anything fancy... just to make an order for that bloody prize draw
Maybe waiting til tomorrow for 8th ed stuff. Have to wait for GW before they offer data sheets or something perhaps
Yeah, I was waiting all day until I realised FW will most likely just release the data sheets tomorrow. Sigh... no custodes, no new sicarans...
Why would you get Custodes data sheets? FW has only touched them for 30k so far and we aren't switching to 8th for that.
Unfortunately yeah, doesn't seem like they're doing it. The second imperial book is Guard rather than remaining imperium, and the games workshop index still had the awkward half-assed custodian guard/sentinel guard/shield captain hybrid unit.
It will probably come after the various colors of Astartes get thier own codexes but I think its a given that in 2 years or so the Custodians will get a 40k codex to themselves. And we can probably assume that well get some forgeworld stuff translated to plastic.
So... when FW said they'd be making rules for everything they're currently selling, they decided to ignore the Breacher squad, and when they said they were making their lists, they decided to ignore Tyrant's Legion and the Siege Assault Vanguard?
I'm happy to see that they did a pretty comprehensive list of at least the Marine characters (did they drop any?), but it's bit frustrating that they don't have rules for those lists, esp. since they could be covered pretty quickly-- about as much space as the GSC or CSM cult pages plus like 1-2 spreads for units would have been everything necessary.
edit: also, I thought they promised the Eldar Corsair list, and I only see one unit represented there? I don't know how much the ork and necron lists varied, so can't comment on those...
What if the breachers are simply a weapon option now for another unit listing though? It's possible the models are simply covered under another entry as an option (unlikely, but possible).
Tannhauser, the Breacher models were IIRC an option for their zone mortalis, for the siege list tac squad variant, and were the most obvious way to build shield assault units for the Retaliators which never had official models... so, the unit has 2-3 variations in 40k rules that existed before 30k (I don't know if the shield squads the same function in 30k).
I'm happy to see that they did a pretty comprehensive list of at least the Marine characters (did they drop any?)
Off the top of my head, they dropped Hamath Kraatos, the Minotaurs Devastator Vet Sgt that had the special Heavy Bolter. He doesn't have a current model(it was Event Only despite being in one of the books) but that doesn't seem to matter here since Arkos got 8th Ed rules and he never had a model, limited or otherwise.
spiralingcadaver wrote: So... when FW said they'd be making rules for everything they're currently selling, they decided to ignore the Breacher squad, and when they said they were making their lists, they decided to ignore Tyrant's Legion and the Siege Assault Vanguard?
It makes sense, the major elements of both lists (tank/dread squadrons and allies IG/SM, respectively) can now be done without a special list. They're not really worth keeping.
Rydria wrote: Abit sad there isn't rules for the sonic dreadnought anymore since i now have 2 dreads/hellbrutes with illegal weapon options :/
Maybe discuss with your group allowing you to just use the costs in the Chaos Index to add the weapons to a Hellbrute? I mean we basically have all the points costs right there and the way they do it now makes custom units/models even easier than before...
Well as far I am concerned, it means I have a lot of model
I cannot use in 8th...
Fighta and Fighta-Bomba are just the Dakka Jet and either Blitza or Burna bomba now. Only real loss is the ability to take one shot rokkits, which ought to be a thing since the kit can support it.
Maybe there was enough noise from people to get them to include the Plague Hulk, so much so that they're going to resurrect its moulds or do a new version.
Also its nurgle co release in the starter, and there are pretty good chances he'll get a full release next month or soon after. (Tzaanuary making way for Nurly? Or Nurgust?)
Point being maybe they expect a particular out cry for plague hulks given the current themes. Also If thebork buggy rumours are true and it seems likely since they were always WAAAAYYYYY motr believable than what turned outnto he a pir new old space marine overlords the Orks mau be getting an in depth look in the not too distant future.
Though it still mightly sucks that your stuff wasn't included but there is the silver lining of you guys are gonna get some attention soonish?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Maybe there was enough noise from people to get them to include the Plague Hulk, so much so that they're going to resurrect its moulds or do a new version.
Ties into the Death Guard release quite well perhaps.
Rydria wrote: Abit sad there isn't rules for the sonic dreadnought anymore since i now have 2 dreads/hellbrutes with illegal weapon options :/
Maybe discuss with your group allowing you to just use the costs in the Chaos Index to add the weapons to a Hellbrute? I mean we basically have all the points costs right there and the way they do it now makes custom units/models even easier than before...
This could work for the sonic weapons.
I doubt they will let me take a chainfist at 22pts over a hellbrute fist which costs 40pts : P
Imateria wrote: So much for my Corsairs, though I have no idea what a Skyreaver is.
Looks like corsairs are now 3 entries indeed.
Basically all the Corsairs they lacked models for were axed.
I guess you can hope for a special case where you can make certain Craftworld + Dark Eldar units get the Corsair Keyword or the like?
Imateria wrote: So much for my Corsairs, though I have no idea what a Skyreaver is.
Looks like corsairs are now 3 entries indeed.
Basically all the Corsairs they lacked models for were axed.
Offhand, it looks like they mostly only did rules for the models they still produce. Which is what they promised, right? I know it sucks they didn't do anything for the legacy models that are no longer made, but that's been an ongoing thing with Forgeworld for years now with every new edition or codex update, anyway. Besides, there will still be new IA books, and those can always reintroduce the missing stuff. Personally, I'm still surprised they updated so many of the Badab War characters to 8th.
Imateria wrote: So much for my Corsairs, though I have no idea what a Skyreaver is.
Looks like corsairs are now 3 entries indeed.
Basically all the Corsairs they lacked models for were axed.
Offhand, it looks like they mostly only did rules for the models they still produce. Which is what they promised, right? I know it sucks they didn't do anything for the legacy models that are no longer made, but that's been an ongoing thing with Forgeworld for years now with every new edition or codex update, anyway. Besides, there will still be new IA books, and those can always reintroduce the missing stuff. Personally, I'm still surprised they updated so many of the Badab War characters to 8th.
Honestly, I'll be surprised if all their IG tanks get rules. I mean, has anyone here ever actually faced a trojan support vehicle? Or a MACHARIUS VANQUISHER? Or a taurus? Actually, I have seen a Taurus used before, but unless you play Elisians, or DKOK, you probably won't own one. I mean, they are great models, and I would buy all of them if they were 30k compatible, but really?
In the car with the family today and I hit the phone display not realising it was connected to the wife's phone. Last dialled number..... 'forgeworld'! Seems either she is taking up some gaming or I'm getting a great Father's Day present!
Also mightily impressed she has their number saved on her phone!
Imateria wrote: So much for my Corsairs, though I have no idea what a Skyreaver is.
Looks like corsairs are now 3 entries indeed.
Basically all the Corsairs they lacked models for were axed.
Offhand, it looks like they mostly only did rules for the models they still produce. Which is what they promised, right? I know it sucks they didn't do anything for the legacy models that are no longer made, but that's been an ongoing thing with Forgeworld for years now with every new edition or codex update, anyway. Besides, there will still be new IA books, and those can always reintroduce the missing stuff. Personally, I'm still surprised they updated so many of the Badab War characters to 8th.
Honestly, I'll be surprised if all their IG tanks get rules. I mean, has anyone here ever actually faced a trojan support vehicle? Or a MACHARIUS VANQUISHER? Or a taurus? Actually, I have seen a Taurus used before, but unless you play Elisians, or DKOK, you probably won't own one. I mean, they are great models, and I would buy all of them if they were 30k compatible, but really?
Aquila lander anyone?
Atlas?
Trojan?
Even the fortress walls are here,
so the "oop models are not here, as they said" theory is not valid in my opinion.
I am happy most of the stuff (still no platform, but these can be covered by carriage anyway) is updated for imperial players,
but again there is no logic to be seen here, and slides from the seminars said all models (not all model still production)
will be updated.
Some were, some not. The ork line suffered most.
Knockagh wrote: In the car with the family today and I hit the phone display not realising it was connected to the wife's phone. Last dialled number..... 'forgeworld'! Seems either she is taking up some gaming or I'm getting a great Father's Day present!
Also mightily impressed she has their number saved on her phone!
Good for you!
Now, as the father of human civilisation I deserve something too. Maybe a warlord titan...
Knockagh wrote: In the car with the family today and I hit the phone display not realising it was connected to the wife's phone. Last dialled number..... 'forgeworld'! Seems either she is taking up some gaming or I'm getting a great Father's Day present!
Also mightily impressed she has their number saved on her phone!
Good for you!
Now, as the father of human civilisation I deserve something too. Maybe a warlord titan...
Or she's seen the bills, called them to tell them of your untimely demise, and told them that people are trying to order stuff in your name and never allow it to happen again . But keep being a glass half full guy, it's better that way really.
Oh, sorry for OT question, I was just looking at some DKoK to buy alongside the new Index book and noticed they are no longer available. I assume this has been for a while? Was there any response to it?
unmercifulconker wrote: Oh, sorry for OT question, I was just looking at some DKoK to buy alongside the new Index book and noticed they are no longer available. I assume this has been for a while? Was there any response to it?
They sure look available to me when I search for them on the FW site...
unmercifulconker wrote: Oh, sorry for OT question, I was just looking at some DKoK to buy alongside the new Index book and noticed they are no longer available. I assume this has been for a while? Was there any response to it?
They sure look available to me when I search for them on the FW site...
Yeah working fine now. Hmmm must have just been a cock up on the site. Crisis averted.
Or a taurus? Actually, I have seen a Taurus used before, but unless you play Elisians, or DKOK, you probably won't own one.
Actually, that might not be true anymore. Forge World did say they'd be giving factions access to units that they never had before, and if you look at the Table of Contents it lists the Tauros under the general Astra Militarum datasheets rather than the Elysian specific ones. So at a bare minimum it means that standard Guard should have access to the Tauros.
Now they just need to let my Heretics also use them, and my dream of Heretic technicals will finall be a reality.
Also, on the subject of Renegades and Heretics, did anyone else wince a bit at the mention that we might need ~$95USD worth of books just to run our army? I'll probably hold off on any other Indexes until I can buy the FW Astra Militarum index to confim thats the case, but if so then it's really disappointing.
Knockagh wrote: In the car with the family today and I hit the phone display not realising it was connected to the wife's phone. Last dialled number..... 'forgeworld'! Seems either she is taking up some gaming or I'm getting a great Father's Day present!
Also mightily impressed she has their number saved on her phone!
Good for you!
Now, as the father of human civilisation I deserve something too. Maybe a warlord titan...
Or she's seen the bills, called them to tell them of your untimely demise, and told them that people are trying to order stuff in your name and never allow it to happen again . But keep being a glass half full guy, it's better that way really.
Sh*t I never thought of that! Have to admit I've been concerned about the silence over the increase in hobby related stuff that's invaded the house. She hasn't said a word.....
if I'm banned from FW I will have to get the kids to buy stuff.
Jack Flask wrote: So at a bare minimum it means that standard Guard should have access to the Tauros.
They already did, in IA1 (second edition). They're just not very useful rules-wise, so you didn't see them much unless someone was doing a themed Elysian army.
Imateria wrote: So much for my Corsairs, though I have no idea what a Skyreaver is.
Looks like corsairs are now 3 entries indeed.
Basically all the Corsairs they lacked models for were axed.
Offhand, it looks like they mostly only did rules for the models they still produce. Which is what they promised, right? I know it sucks they didn't do anything for the legacy models that are no longer made, but that's been an ongoing thing with Forgeworld for years now with every new edition or codex update, anyway. Besides, there will still be new IA books, and those can always reintroduce the missing stuff. Personally, I'm still surprised they updated so many of the Badab War characters to 8th.
Honestly, I'll be surprised if all their IG tanks get rules. I mean, has anyone here ever actually faced a trojan support vehicle? Or a MACHARIUS VANQUISHER? Or a taurus? Actually, I have seen a Taurus used before, but unless you play Elisians, or DKOK, you probably won't own one. I mean, they are great models, and I would buy all of them if they were 30k compatible, but really?
Aquila lander anyone?
Atlas?
Trojan?
Even the fortress walls are here,
so the "oop models are not here, as they said" theory is not valid in my opinion.
I am happy most of the stuff (still no platform, but these can be covered by carriage anyway) is updated for imperial players,
but again there is no logic to be seen here, and slides from the seminars said all models (not all model still production)
will be updated.
Some were, some not. The ork line suffered most.
Ork line is weird a lot of the models they stoped making such as various weapons they made and tanks, flyers, battlefortreses and gunwagons have absolutely no rules but what confuses me is they still sell the halftrakks, enclosed cab trukks and mega dread and they also lacks rules maybe the mega dread is rolled into options for the meka dread? No freakin clue
To be fair the meka dread can be huge for dread mobs as another kff model. Zhardsnark can be huge for warbikers, buzzgrob (who may still have his stompa) can maybe make his stompa decent and give stompas even more offensive ability, the big trakk should be a more durable trukk with better weapon options, the squiggoths can be tough and the chinork kopta can be an interesting twist. I realize FW will benefit the imperial soup the most but orks can definitely gain a benefit to some of thier stronger lists.
Or a taurus? Actually, I have seen a Taurus used before, but unless you play Elisians, or DKOK, you probably won't own one.
Actually, that might not be true anymore. Forge World did say they'd be giving factions access to units that they never had before, and if you look at the Table of Contents it lists the Tauros under the general Astra Militarum datasheets rather than the Elysian specific ones. So at a bare minimum it means that standard Guard should have access to the Tauros.
Now they just need to let my Heretics also use them, and my dream of Heretic technicals will finall be a reality.
Also, on the subject of Renegades and Heretics, did anyone else wince a bit at the mention that we might need ~$95USD worth of books just to run our army? I'll probably hold off on any other Indexes until I can buy the FW Astra Militarum index to confim thats the case, but if so then it's really disappointing.
Ha even better gene cults have access to all units with the Astra militarum keyword. That creates a few strong options if they gain the shadow rules. However I want to see some people conversions of the sentinel powerlifter in genecult themeed lists.
The funniest thing with forgeworld is the mold for DKOK grenadiers broke at the worst possible time for them as scions or basically grenadiers which are carapace vets with hotshot guns are literally one of the most overpowered units in 8th. Forgeworld would have sold a lot of these models if they can quickly redo that mold.
Imateria wrote: So much for my Corsairs, though I have no idea what a Skyreaver is.
Looks like corsairs are now 3 entries indeed.
Basically all the Corsairs they lacked models for were axed.
Offhand, it looks like they mostly only did rules for the models they still produce. Which is what they promised, right? I know it sucks they didn't do anything for the legacy models that are no longer made, but that's been an ongoing thing with Forgeworld for years now with every new edition or codex update, anyway. Besides, there will still be new IA books, and those can always reintroduce the missing stuff. Personally, I'm still surprised they updated so many of the Badab War characters to 8th.
Honestly, I'll be surprised if all their IG tanks get rules. I mean, has anyone here ever actually faced a trojan support vehicle? Or a MACHARIUS VANQUISHER? Or a taurus? Actually, I have seen a Taurus used before, but unless you play Elisians, or DKOK, you probably won't own one. I mean, they are great models, and I would buy all of them if they were 30k compatible, but really?
Aquila lander anyone?
Atlas?
Trojan?
Even the fortress walls are here,
so the "oop models are not here, as they said" theory is not valid in my opinion.
I am happy most of the stuff (still no platform, but these can be covered by carriage anyway) is updated for imperial players,
but again there is no logic to be seen here, and slides from the seminars said all models (not all model still production)
will be updated.
Some were, some not. The ork line suffered most.
Ork line is weird a lot of the models they stoped making such as various weapons they made and tanks, flyers, battlefortreses and gunwagons have absolutely no rules but what confuses me is they still sell the halftrakks, enclosed cab trukks and mega dread and they also lacks rules maybe the mega dread is rolled into options for the meka dread? No freakin clue
To be fair the meka dread can be huge for dread mobs as another kff model. Zhardsnark can be huge for warbikers, buzzgrob (who may still have his stompa) can maybe make his stompa decent and give stompas even more offensive ability, the big trakk should be a more durable trukk with better weapon options, the squiggoths can be tough and the chinork kopta can be an interesting twist. I realize FW will benefit the imperial soup the most but orks can definitely gain a benefit to some of thier stronger lists.
Or a taurus? Actually, I have seen a Taurus used before, but unless you play Elisians, or DKOK, you probably won't own one.
Actually, that might not be true anymore. Forge World did say they'd be giving factions access to units that they never had before, and if you look at the Table of Contents it lists the Tauros under the general Astra Militarum datasheets rather than the Elysian specific ones. So at a bare minimum it means that standard Guard should have access to the Tauros.
Now they just need to let my Heretics also use them, and my dream of Heretic technicals will finall be a reality.
Also, on the subject of Renegades and Heretics, did anyone else wince a bit at the mention that we might need ~$95USD worth of books just to run our army? I'll probably hold off on any other Indexes until I can buy the FW Astra Militarum index to confim thats the case, but if so then it's really disappointing.
Ha even better gene cults have access to all units with the Astra militarum keyword. That creates a few strong options if they gain the shadow rules. However I want to see some people conversions of the sentinel powerlifter in genecult themeed lists.
The funniest thing with forgeworld is the mold for DKOK grenadiers broke at the worst possible time for them as scions or basically grenadiers which are carapace vets with hotshot guns are literally one of the most overpowered units in 8th. Forgeworld would have sold a lot of these models if they can quickly redo that mold.
Well tanks, flyers, battlefortreses and gunwagons absolutely had rules for 7th edition in IA 8,
all were covered including the various weapon options.
What is making me mad is that they made rules for the lifta-wagon which is oop, and
not for the more common stuff such as the the grot-launchas battery,
gun wagonz or forteresses which were trademark vehicules for the orks.
They still sell the halftrakk and armored cab trukk which are, well trukk
variants, used for chassis for the Gun trukks in the IA list.
(basically, the trukk gave up its transport capacity to fit a big gun).
I really hope they will consider to address this issue later with
datasheets to cover the missing stuff (at least grot-launchas battery,
gun wagonz or forteresses, I can understand for the flyers), and a looted wagon datasheet
would be nice also.
But why would that tank have totally different rule from a normal Razorback?
In IA2-2nd it's just a Razorback with a Multi-melta - no special rules. It's just a separate entry for the FW weapon options - I'm expecting the Gryphonne Pattern Chimera to be the Autocannon / twin Heavy Bolter turrets, for another example.
While that would be cool, it's just 1 multi-melta on the turret, unfortunately!
Oh yeah... for some reason I always keep thinking it's a twin one.
Probably because every other Razorback turret is a Twin weapon, or a Twin & Single weapon in the case of the Las-Plas.
MaxT wrote: Has the Tauros Assault Vehicle gone OOP? I can only see its bigger brother on the forgeworld website.
There's been a lot of stuff disappearing temporarily recently, repacking maybe? Also the filters have been a bit messed up, try doing a search as stuff sometimes turns up that way.
Is there a purpose of having tau in the index if they are in Fires as well?
Alternatively, if tau are NOT in fires, does it mean only admech are in?
And if so, what rules ARE there to fill the book? because forgewrold aint got too many Admech if they are not porting 30k admech to 40k.
They had to put the existing Tau models into an index as they currently have 40k rules - so need 8th ed 40k rules on release. None of the adMech models have 40k rules yet so no need to release them in the index.
Do you think Tau will get additional models? I figured they already released the lion's share of the Tau when Fires of C was first stated as coming out.
They get an upgraded flyer - but outside of that I can't image there is much more.
The Admech got their upgrades too.
Outside of the Red Scorpions, what do they have left to release for this book?
Is there a purpose of having tau in the index if they are in Fires as well?
Alternatively, if tau are NOT in fires, does it mean only admech are in?
And if so, what rules ARE there to fill the book? because forgewrold aint got too many Admech if they are not porting 30k admech to 40k.
Isn't bringing the 30k Mechanicum stuff in 40K the whole bloody point of this book?
(I fething hope so. Maybe then I can finally use my Thallaxi I ordered when they first announced this book somewhere in the late Jurassic period.)
stormboy wrote: Do you think Tau will get additional models?
I don't really know the Tau range very well, but I would be highly surprised if there wasn't at least one big thing we haven't seen a model for yet in the new book even if it is just a weapons variant, it would be most unlike them not to do that.
Is there a purpose of having tau in the index if they are in Fires as well?
Alternatively, if tau are NOT in fires, does it mean only admech are in?
And if so, what rules ARE there to fill the book? because forgewrold aint got too many Admech if they are not porting 30k admech to 40k.
Isn't bringing the 30k Mechanicum stuff in 40K the whole bloody point of this book?
(I fething hope so. Maybe then I can finally use my Thallaxi I ordered when they first announced this book somewhere in the late Jurassic period.)
Yea, I thought they said all 30k Admech will be made to 8th edition 40k in this book.
stormboy wrote: Do you think Tau will get additional models?
I don't really know the Tau range very well, but I would be highly surprised if there wasn't at least one big thing we haven't seen a model for yet in the new book even if it is just a weapons variant, it would be most unlike them not to do that.
The build up to Fires initially had the release of the Supremacy Armour and its variants. Granted that was over a year ago - but I can't imagine FW has another giant Tau suit in the works. They have a flyer update coming that was seen at Warhammerfest - but I imagine most of this release will now be the Red Scorpions and Leviathan Dread Culn. I would be happy to be wrong - but Admech will get access to 30k models (so they likely don't need any other kits) and Tau were already released.
stormboy wrote: Do you think Tau will get additional models?
I don't really know the Tau range very well, but I would be highly surprised if there wasn't at least one big thing we haven't seen a model for yet in the new book even if it is just a weapons variant, it would be most unlike them not to do that.
The build up to Fires initially had the release of the Supremacy Armour and its variants. Granted that was over a year ago - but I can't imagine FW has another giant Tau suit in the works. They have a flyer update coming that was seen at Warhammerfest - but I imagine most of this release will now be the Red Scorpions and Leviathan Dread Culn. I would be happy to be wrong - but Admech will get access to 30k models (so they likely don't need any other kits) and Tau were already released.
It wouldn't have to be a whole new model, just a new weapon variant would be enough, especially if you can only get that weapon by purchasing a whole model rather than just the gun. I think it is reasonably safe to assume that the rules have been rewritten in the book for 8th edition so FW have had plenty of time to add in another weapon load out or two for some of the models.
With the admech stuff some of the 30k weapons do not have 40k valid rules, I think there is a reasonable chance we'll see some different weapon variants for some of the mechancium robots as well because of this.
All speculation on my part, mostly because I am fed up of waiting for the new book and I have a horrible feeling it won't be released till the next FW Open day 13th August.
Verviedi wrote: 13th August? You are so optimistic... should I make a formal guessing board?
I bet May 2018.
They already had a draft done. I assume most of the fluff stayed the same - so they just need to adapt to the new edition. Maybe August is a decent guess.
Still needs fluff / etc in a "real" book, I think? Personally, I'd be thrilled with an August release . Doesn't seem like FW have given any renewed timeline hints, though.
Nope, from emails and WarhammerFest stuff, they gave no hints at all. My best guess is early next year, after HH: Angelus, or the heat death of the universe.
Edit: I do have a reputable source saying August, but take it with salt.
RiTides wrote: Still needs fluff / etc in a "real" book, I think? Personally, I'd be thrilled with an August release . Doesn't seem like FW have given any renewed timeline hints, though.
I feel the opposite. The Thunderhawk lost a lot of its charm with the somewhat streamlining of the model. I suspect it's a much better model (well, as good as FW can manage), but it looks quite boring by comparison to the old one.
I prefer the old Thunderhawk, the T-tail was part of the iconic silhouette of the Thunderhawk and I don't think they should have removed it, also prefer the frame of the canopy on the older one.
Other than the tail and canopy frame I'm happy enough with the new one I guess, but those problems are pretty big in the overall aesthetic of the model.
Breotan wrote: I still don't understand GW's need to put a sizeable load bearing structure through the center of an aircraft engine.
Far from their worst engineering faux pas, I just assume the engine housing is strengthened, stiffened and cooled appropriately. This one actually thickens up in the wing root area to get rid of the stress concentration the old one would have had as it went from outer wing -> engine -> wing root.
Must've been accidentally sent emails? I've checked both emails I have FW sunscriptions on and haven't seen anything on this topic, just the indexes :(
Tamereth wrote: I'm so stoked by the sticking with 7th, putting out there own rulebook thing. I am now however tempted to collected all the big expensive books, instead of just the odd one here or there with the legions I most like. (I currently only have two)
It could cause issues, such as what happens if it sells better than 8th? Unlikely given the limited sales channels but if large numbers of current players move to 30k instead of the new system?
I can't see any danger of that happening. The number of returnees to the game looks to be huge, not to mention 8th being much more friendly to new players. If people want to play with 7.5/30k/HH alongside 8th, then more power (and money) to Forge World. If they can offer some better rules balance with some tweaks, I'd be quite happy to pick up a copy of 7.5 alongside my 8th edition stuff.
I'll still buy the big black HH books. Because they're things of beauty.
For the Fires book, is it still confirmed/rumoured that we will be getting some 30k Ad-Mech units for 40k? I'd love to see those big ass robots in an army.
What a nice surprise it would be though to see the book this month, since I can't get the new box set until the end of the month I was gonna do FW shop too to get the Militarum Index and the Fires book would be sound as!
Obviously 8th has been in the works for a long time so they could have well changed all the rules section for 8th a while ago.
My lawd though, to see some proper Ad-Mech vs Tau, with the scorpions in grey. Lather me in it.
Verviedi wrote: Yes, we are. Vorax and Thanatars are confirmed by the book's teaser art. Every single 30k unit would be greatly appreciated.
Honestly the thing I want more than anything else is a port of the Magos rules. I really dislike the GW Studio trend these days to only give characters the options available in the blister pack - finally being able to "officially" put together Mechanicus characters with some variety of gear and battlefield role would be glorious.
That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?
You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.
I think it's pretty clear that 8th has the tools in place to make the Legions play with subtle differences, given that the core rules are 12 pages and the real meat of each unit and army is in the Dataslates and keywords. It would simply be a matter of Forge World writing up the Legions and their bespoke units with this all in mind. And then playtesting them before releasing them as an "Index" to 8th. So, while it's very technically possible - it could be done - it's probably so much work for them to retrofit the 7 books (or even just the red books) that it won't happen for a long, long time - if at all.
That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?
You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.
I think it's pretty clear that 8th has the tools in place to make the Legions play with subtle differences, given that the core rules are 12 pages and the real meat of each unit and army is in the Dataslates and keywords. It would simply be a matter of Forge World writing up the Legions and their bespoke units with this all in mind. And then playtesting them before releasing them as an "Index" to 8th. So, while it's very technically possible - it could be done - it's probably so much work for them to retrofit the 7 books (or even just the red books) that it won't happen for a long, long time - if at all.
I'd suggest that the death of their lead book and rules writer has hampered efforts somewhat. Plenty of people spoke to Alan earlier this year who confirmed that 30k will be moving to 8th. The poor soul's untimely demise has put paid to that.
That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?
You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.
I think it's pretty clear that 8th has the tools in place to make the Legions play with subtle differences, given that the core rules are 12 pages and the real meat of each unit and army is in the Dataslates and keywords. It would simply be a matter of Forge World writing up the Legions and their bespoke units with this all in mind. And then playtesting them before releasing them as an "Index" to 8th. So, while it's very technically possible - it could be done - it's probably so much work for them to retrofit the 7 books (or even just the red books) that it won't happen for a long, long time - if at all.
I'd suggest that the death of their lead book and rules writer has hampered efforts somewhat. Plenty of people spoke to Alan earlier this year who confirmed that 30k will be moving to 8th. The poor soul's untimely demise has put paid to that.
Yes, AB's sad passing has no doubt left a big hole there. He was a talented writer, project manager and so much more.
Whoo! I am going up to WHW on the 23rd and I was hoping they'd have the Index Xenos available for all my Tau (sorry T'au) stuff; I might just be in luck!
I may just do that, as I'd rather not wait six weeks on a physical copy to arrive, not to mention, at least the digital product will (hopefully) receive swift errata.
CragHack wrote: Who, on earth, would possibly want to buy 3 KX Titans?
I have one and in theory would love to if that was remotely economically viable.
Anyhow if you go to warhammer digital and check the previews for the books, you can get one unit from each book. Vindicator Laser Destroyer (looking really good, reliable damage instead of D6 rolls) Blood Slaughterer, Dimachaeron and some superheavy guard flyer.
