Are there any reviews out that aren't miniwargaming because it's becoming increasingly difficult to not scream at them for being absolute morons who feel the need to spend a solid two minutes discussing useless and important aspects of units.
Wouldn't be so bad if I could just mute them but they don't show they important bits of the new units in screen because they are probably aware we'd all do that and what to make us suffer through their inane annoying and frankly useless hypotheticals.
Oh god one them literally was arguing rolling 7 or more on a 2d6 was 50% exactly.
SilverAlien wrote: Are there any reviews out that aren't miniwargaming because it's becoming increasingly difficult to not scream at them for being absolute morons who feel the need to spend a solid two minutes discussing useless and important aspects of units.
Wouldn't be so bad if I could just mute them but they don't show they important bits of the new units in screen because they are probably aware we'd all do that and what to make us suffer through their inane annoying and frankly useless hypotheticals.
Oh god one them literally was arguing rolling 7 or more on a 2d6 was 50% exactly.
I know. The arguing about the Tallyman and the 2d6 roll being "so unlikely" was the most annoying. I felt like screaming "The average roll of 2d6 is 7!"
what I mean is it fits the profile aesthetically ... from the early rogue trade models to current aesthetics with the nurglins and artwork for great unclean ones ... I imagine they wanna re-vision the BoN this way
So after this, I think Death Guard has more unique kits than the Primaris Have for now... Obviously, Primaris are gonna receive more kits the next year, but probably this is one of the biggest releases in GW history of a new faction, no?
Compared with Death Guard, Thousand Sons received... just crumbs
Thousand Sons: Tzaangors, Rubric Marines, Scarab Ocult Terminators, Magnus, Exalted Sorcerrers, Ahriman (6 kits)
Death Guard: 2 kits for Terminators, Plague Marines, PoxWalkers, 9 characters ( The 3 DI ones, Mortarion, Typhus, Tallyman, the dude with the poison bottles, the Aphotecary, and the one with the plague-mask), Bloat-Drones, The Tank, and the ground Bloat-drone. ( 16 kits)
If that image is the new beast of nurgle, I think it looks very... humanoid, and not so... beast-y.
Mymearan wrote: Why would those top ones be Beasts of Nurgle?
Fits the classic description/model; slug-like with head tentacles and leaves a slime trail. Also note the joyous expression that BoN are noted for having.
Plagueburst Crawlers seem really strong. If I understood everything correctly they are just 162 points for a T8 12W 3+/5++/5+++ tank weapons included. And he can have 2 entropy cannons which are basicly Darklances. I like it
Motarion has really good things going for him.
He seems to destroy hordes, killing about 30 horde units a turn not counting morale.
Also he can kill big stuff even easier than magnus.
AND he pulses mortal wounds every turn.
AND he removes toughness.
Bastard has 5 weapons to choose from:
Pistol with "beam"(can hit mutiple units) 1, S8, -3, 3
Grenade 2D6, S5, -1, 1
Nurglings like always D6, S2, 0, 1,
Silence has 2 modes:
anti big stuff: S user x2, -4, D6 anti horde 3x for every attack, S user, -2, 1
Re-roll 1s to hit for deathguard(like magnus but no fail save re-roll)
Psychic: knows 3 contagion, deny 3, casts 2. Can't take warp time :(
Mathammer wise he is a bit worse than Magnus on paper due to not casting warptime. His damage is better though and he can take on hordes as well as big dudes so he is waaaay more versatile.. Also the -1T aura and the pulsating 3 mortal wounds are hard to judge.
Plague Surgeon has an aura that gives infantry units within 3 inches a reroll on a 1 for their DR save. And they are elite choice and quite cheap too.
And for those who were worried Mortarion might be singled out and gunned down by heavy weapons. Deathshroud Terminators have 4++ save, DR, 2 wounds, and they can take wounds for any character near to them. So, yeah, all those lascannon shots directed at Mortarion can be rediracted at the Deathshroud terminators first!
Blightlord Terminators are T5, DR, 2W terminators that kind take the regular combi weapons stuff as well as the plague marine weapons like blight launchers and such and they are only a few points more expensive than regular CSM termninators.
The bloat drone with fleshmower sounds so fun to use! It adds 6 attacks to the Bloat drones attacks ... 6 !!! And its str user+2, so that's str 8 attacks on an uninjured bloat drone. This fleshmower will literally mow down stuff. lol Bloat drone has 3 attacks base, so at full health, it will do 9 Str 8 attacks. lol
The blight Hauler is a really interesting unit too. fast attack choice, moves 10 inches. 8 wounds, does not degrade, has 5++ as well as DR, packs 3 ranged weapons and 1 melee. And it gives a special aura that is 7 inches radius. Infantry units wholly within its aura get cover save! So, your 5 man plague marine unit close to the Blight Hauler is now a 2+ armor save as it trudges up the board. Nice! Its really cheap too. Under 100 points base. @@
The Plague burst crawler is really cheap too (its only slightly over 100 points base!) and quite hitty! Firstly, its really resilient, becuase it has T8, 3+ save and DR and 12 wounds. And it has a fair amount of heavy weaponery. You can swop the side sponstones into basically the equivalent of 36 inch range lascannons. And the Plague burst mortar is the heavy duty weapon. It does d6 hits, Str 8, AP -2. d3 damage at range 12 to 48 inches and you don't need line of sight to fire it! lol. With this, a gun line deathguard army is a distinct possibility.
SilverAlien wrote: Are there any reviews out that aren't miniwargaming because it's becoming increasingly difficult to not scream at them for being absolute morons who feel the need to spend a solid two minutes discussing useless and important aspects of units.
Wouldn't be so bad if I could just mute them but they don't show they important bits of the new units in screen because they are probably aware we'd all do that and what to make us suffer through their inane annoying and frankly useless hypotheticals.
Oh god one them literally was arguing rolling 7 or more on a 2d6 was 50% exactly.
I know. The arguing about the Tallyman and the 2d6 roll being "so unlikely" was the most annoying. I felt like screaming "The average roll of 2d6 is 7!"
Indeed every 6th time you will roll a 7. Not bad for getting back command points. Maybe you can take multiple Tallymen. Take 3 and you get the points of half your stratagems back (on average).
This range looks really great and with its own charme. Much better than the DIDG.
I don't think it works with multiple Tallymen. The hability triggers is theres at least one, so it means that they can be 1, 3, or 10, only triggers once.
Plus, I declare myself fan of this Nurgling with a helmet!
Horus Luperkermit wrote: I took some notes in the Miniwargaming Vid about Mortarion. (...) Lastly he is the Primarch of the DG rerolling Hitroles of 1 for all DG units including himself in 7" and if he dies he explodes on a 4+ dealing D3 Mortal wounds in 7" around him to all Non-Deathguard Units. The rest is as we know it. Please correct me if I heard something wrong
Wait what.. that's huge!
Means he does get another aura and it's the one we've all been hoping he'd have.
Wow that changes everything I guess!
I'm not sure how I feel about the new beasts of nurgle. We'll have to see how they pan out as miniatures. I could imagine them looking too goofy, even for Nurgle. Also, there seems to be a lot of overlap with Great Unclean Ones, which is lazy. But the miniatures make or break a concept, so I look forward to seeing this resolved. Also, I too am really scratching my head at this point over just what that Ultralisk-looking thing in that picture is now. Maybe a new Nurgle Daemon to be released? If so this was leaked WAY ahead of schedule. I don't want new daemons, I want them to make plastic kits for the old ones...
Would the tallyman CP ability stack or is it worded in such a way to prevent it? I refuse to open that video again
anyways, my thoughts:
Spoiler:
The bright crawler looks fairly good at first glance. It's really tough for cost and seems to have a lot of dakka. If all it's weapons are plague weapons I'd be even happier, as the str 8 might struggle a bit vs T 8 compared to str 9 lascannons, but that's not a huge deal. I think it'll do well given, enough it might actually screw over some alpha strike lists who rely on thinning out anti tank weapons turn 1.
What really struck me as impressive were the new blight haulers. Being able to keep nearby infantry in cover while having a lot of anti tank dakka is nice. They pair well with PM, who don't have the ork problem of trying to fit big squads entirely in the radius, not with msu being the smart choice. They are good enough I don't think I'll feel the loss of havocs as heavily as I imagined.
I'm excited for blight lord terminators, though I want a better description of their kit and loadout, whether the blight launchers are limited choices or can be taken across the squad, etc. Their price looks solid compared to normal csm terminators for the various defensive boosts. Again, a much better deal than what plague marines get.
The blight drones continue to look alright, the melee version is I think the most promising, though all could be useful. I do think the heavy blight launcher variant might struggle compared to the blight haulers though.
Our new characters are a mixed bag. The good is the tallyman, offering us both the dark apostle melee utility as well as a weaker version of the ultramarine warlord trait that everyone loved. Given it's 1/6 instead of 1/3 it's without a doubt still worth including at least one. If it stacks or you are running a melee based army probably a few more.
The biologis and foulspawn are both... alright. Being able to disrupt charges a little helps a defensive DG army, while the grenade boost could be useful in very specific situations (the stratagem). I just don't see either really doing enough work to justify their inclusions.
The apothecary is probably the biggest disappointment of the codex but I may have just expected too much from him. Going from a 33% chance to block a wound to a 38% chance just isn't very significant and the short range also hurts as you'll have to spam them. The fact it only works with infantry makes it even more mediocre, doesn't boost the demon engine DR. The helm might help one be useable, but honestly this unit (and the two above) are all going to need to pull their weight in combat to be worth their cost, they aren't particularly impressive force multipliers. Which disappoints me.
As for the other disappointing choices, deathshroud look just awful. So expensive, practically useless out of deepstrike, these are really just for dropping in in front of morty to shield him for a turn, or maybe loading into a LR with your HQ of choice.
Poxwalkers didn't go down in price, which shocked me. They can gain synergy bonuses cultists can't but I already mentioned the apothecary being kinda meh and typhus is fairly expensive for baby sitting what is a chaff unit. Honestly, I'd rather take plague bearers for screening if I can spare a detachment. It helps that DGHQs don't seem to benefit from the CT much at all, and I don't think there is anything else they lose by being part of a mixed detachment so long as the main detachment is DG, so they can be added without much issue or even needing specific demonic HQs.
So my favorites of the codex are likely either the blight haulers or blight lord terminators, my most disappointing is deathshroud and the apothecary.
Seriously, I think bloat drones with these fleshmowers will be the best thing to accompany Mortarion up the field. A bunch of these plus mortarion are going to be doing a filthy amount of CC damage and ALL of them blow up on a 4+ when they die (Mortarion too lol).
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Silveralien, I think the apothecary is ok. Its quite cheap, and giving a reroll 1 to DR saves isn't bad. Over time, this might add up to quite a few wounds saved on infantry close to it. So, if your plague marine squad is near to a plague surgeon as well as a Blight hauler will now have a 2+ armor save as well as reroll 1s on its DR. Said plague marine squad is now gonna be really tough!
I'm just loving this release. My wallet isn't. Normally I don't jump to the "new faction" crow because I need variety in an army to enjoy collecting it, thats why I didn't bought Kharadron Overlords or Thousand Sons... but with Deathguard? Oh my god. THIS is how you release a new faction!
First, a 5 man unit of BlightLord terminators all with Flails of Corruption, DG Termie Lord and a DG Termie Sorcerer.
Second, any CSM Termie Sorcerer.
Turn 1: Drop these guys in, Warptime the BlightLords, throw on Blades of Putrification and Prescience if you're feeling spicy. Charge in and throw down VotLW. Now you have a tasty 11d3 attacks, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s to hit, S6 with +1 to wound, AP-2 going to AP-3 on a 6 and doing mortal wounds on a 5+. That's an average of 7 mortal wounds on top of any regular damage done.
(Wanna go extra cheaky? Throw Skarbrand in for another 5d3 attacks! Do we have any other ways of getting more attacks with these guys?)
I know everyone's clamouring for the rules, but I wanna see the models.
Look who is playing right into GW's Model Company First philosophy
I agree though, if a model has bad rules, I might still play it, but if good rules have a bad model, there is next to no chance it will see play from me.
First, a 5 man unit of BlightLord terminators all with Flails of Corruption, DG Termie Lord and a DG Termie Sorcerer.
Second, any CSM Termie Sorcerer.
Turn 1: Drop these guys in, Warptime the BlightLords, throw on Blades of Putrification and Prescience if you're feeling spicy. Charge in and throw down VotLW. Now you have a tasty 11d3 attacks, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s to hit, S6 with +1 to wound, AP-2 going to AP-3 on a 6 and doing mortal wounds on a 5+. That's an average of 7 mortal wounds on top of any regular damage done.
(Wanna go extra cheaky? Throw Skarbrand in for another 5d3 attacks! Do we have any other ways of getting more attacks with these guys?)
We have to see if all of them can use flails though. But yeah, it sounds like a ton of damage in CC. In practise though, nowadays, good players all guard against deep strike by having proper bubble wrap, so you have to clear away the bubble wrap before you can use this strategy.
Eldenfirefly wrote: @Silveralien, I think the apothecary is ok. Its quite cheap, and giving a reroll 1 to DR saves isn't bad. Over time, this might add up to quite a few wounds saved on infantry close to it. So, if your plague marine squad is near to a plague surgeon as well as a Blight hauler will now have a 2+ armor save as well as reroll 1s on its DR. Said plague marine squad is now gonna be really tough!
Again, 5% increase in durability, costs 80(?) (I refuse to double check in that video) points, and is going to struggle to boost many squads. It's not nothing, and maybe I just expected too much, but I just don't see myself using them. Not when haulers are actually similar in price (I think?) before we include their (more useful) weapons and have a more impactful aura.
So glad that those dice have not sold out instantly, they look great. Seems like a pretty strong release overall. As for the strength of DG as a faction they certainly seem to have a place as a playable faction, let's hope they can keep this up with subsequent codex releases.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: So glad that those dice have not sold out instantly, they look great. Seems like a pretty strong release overall. As for the strength of DG as a faction they certainly seem to have a place as a playable faction, let's hope they can keep this up with subsequent codex releases.
Well I left one extra set for ya. I was about the pull the trigger on the Collectors gaming set with dice and data cards, and just decided against the dice because the center is squishy. I feel they won't actually roll fairly without even weight to them, and also if they were solid plastic I was considering painting the dice with nurgley grossness on the boils. Can't do that if they're squishy though.
Also bought the limited edition models even though the price was crazy. The Blanche art cards sold me on it more than the models. Considering getting the cards matted and framed. Would be cool to have in my hobby desk.
Man, the stratagems are off the chain! The pox Walker one is outstanding and that one that lets all your dudes chuck a grenade in a unit, instead of just one, mixed with the guy that grants +1 to Blight grenade S and dmg is insane!
EDIT: Imagine a unit of 14 plague marines next to the grenade buff dude using that stratagem... 14d6 potential hits, S4, 2dmg...
Nope. Seems that all the non-new units just have their old rules and don't even get DR added on top of it.
Makes me wonder what's so "Death Guard-y" about Death Guard Possessed when they're not as tough as Plague Marines, or why there needs to be a 'Lord of Contagion' and a 'Chaos Lord'... wouldn't they both be the same thing with different weapons?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Nope. Seems that all the non-new units just have their old rules and don't even get DR added on top of it.
Makes me wonder what's so "Death Guard-y" about Death Guard Possessed when they're not as tough as Plague Marines, or why there needs to be a 'Lord of Contagion' and a 'Chaos Lord'... wouldn't they both be the same thing with different weapons?
The chaos lord is a relatively cheap HQ with a decent aura to act as a force multiplier, who can also do some damage in combat if needed.
The lord of contagion is a close combat monster whose only purpose is getting into melee, who does little to boost the power of his army.
The two have different roles, rules, and in no way shape of form overlap. Keeping the chaos lord cheap is good, as he sits behind other units most of the time, while the lord of contagion needs the extra durability.
I honestly don't get why people are upset about having a useful unit and that useful unit not being burdened by paying for extra durability it doesn't need to perform its role.
Tiberius501 wrote: Man, the stratagems are off the chain! The pox Walker one is outstanding and that one that lets all your dudes chuck a grenade in a unit, instead of just one, mixed with the guy that grants +1 to Blight grenade S and dmg is insane!
EDIT: Imagine a unit of 14 plague marines next to the grenade buff dude using that stratagem... 14d6 potential hits, S4, 2dmg...
Sounds great. The mental image of recreating Battlefield 1 (rifle) grenade spam is reason enough to do it. Already build crossbow grenade launchers, would be a nice fit for such an unit.
The Plague Marines made from the kit That one unhelmeted head in particular
Because a Lord of contagion is fluff-wise a Nurgle Chaos Lord, so it's really awkward to divide the unit like that into a guy with less toughness than a basic plague marine but good leadership skills, and a combat HQ with no leadership role.
Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote: It'd be really interesting to see what kind of mental gymnastic GW will pull to justify screwing over Lords and Sorcerers like that
... screwing over?
Are you saying you think the lord of contagion is the more useful HQ? That a price hike and T 5 and DR would help the chaos lord do their job better?
The only result better than what we got was T 5 and/or DR chaos lord/sorcerer for the same cost as the one in the CSM codex.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Nope. Seems that all the non-new units just have their old rules and don't even get DR added on top of it.
Makes me wonder what's so "Death Guard-y" about Death Guard Possessed when they're not as tough as Plague Marines, or why there needs to be a 'Lord of Contagion' and a 'Chaos Lord'... wouldn't they both be the same thing with different weapons?
The chaos lord is a relatively cheap HQ with a decent aura to act as a force multiplier, who can also do some damage in combat if needed.
The lord of contagion is a close combat monster whose only purpose is getting into melee, who does little to boost the power of his army.
The two have different roles, rules, and in no way shape of form overlap. Keeping the chaos lord cheap is good, as he sits behind other units most of the time, while the lord of contagion needs the extra durability.
I honestly don't get why people are upset about having a useful unit and that useful unit not being burdened by paying for extra durability it doesn't need to perform its role.
SilverAlien wrote: The chaos lord is a relatively cheap HQ with a decent aura to act as a force multiplier, who can also do some damage in combat if needed.
The lord of contagion is a close combat monster whose only purpose is getting into melee, who does little to boost the power of his army.
The two have different roles, rules, and in no way shape of form overlap. Keeping the chaos lord cheap is good, as he sits behind other units most of the time, while the lord of contagion needs the extra durability.
I honestly don't get why people are upset about having a useful unit and that useful unit not being burdened by paying for extra durability it doesn't need to perform its role.
You're missing the point.
How are these units (Chaos Lord, Possessed, Helbrute, etc.) Death Guard units? They're just regular units. What are regular units doing in a Death Guard army? Why is their dedication to Nurgle not reflected in any way, shape or form? Being a Death Guard Chaos Lord used to mean something. Even if it was something as simple as T5/DR as standard for 1 extra PL or some extra points on top of whatever the cost in the Chaos 'Dex is - that'd be enough.
But right now Death Guard Possessed are just Possessed with the DG Keyword. Same for the Lord, Sorcerer, Helbrute, Cultists - you name it. Beyond that there's literally nothing about them that makes them "Nurgle".
changemod wrote: Because a Lord of contagion is fluff-wise a Nurgle Chaos Lord, so it's really awkward to divide the unit like that into a guy with less toughness than a basic plague marine but good leadership skills, and a combat HQ with no leadership role.
First off, lords of contagion apparently get fleshed out in the new codex and aren't just a DG/nurgle lord in fluff.
Second, it's not really awkward even from a gameplay perspective. He's simply a DG chaos lord who took on a slightly different aspect. Remember how we had the skeletally thin morty in epic? Something like that.
SilverAlien wrote: The chaos lord is a relatively cheap HQ with a decent aura to act as a force multiplier, who can also do some damage in combat if needed.
The lord of contagion is a close combat monster whose only purpose is getting into melee, who does little to boost the power of his army.
The two have different roles, rules, and in no way shape of form overlap. Keeping the chaos lord cheap is good, as he sits behind other units most of the time, while the lord of contagion needs the extra durability.
I honestly don't get why people are upset about having a useful unit and that useful unit not being burdened by paying for extra durability it doesn't need to perform its role.
You're missing the point.
How are these units (Chaos Lord, Possessed, Helbrute, etc.) Death Guard units? They're just regular units. What are regular units doing in a Death Guard army? Why is their dedication to Nurgle not reflected in any way, shape or form? Being a Death Guard Chaos Lord used to mean something. Even if it was something as simple as T5/DR as standard for 1 extra PL or some extra points on top of whatever the cost in the Chaos 'Dex is - that'd be enough.
But right now Death Guard Possessed are just Possessed with the DG Keyword. Same for the Lord, Sorcerer, Helbrute, Cultists - you name it. Beyond that there's literally nothing about them that makes them "Nurgle".
What's the point?
I disagree here. Is the same as saying what makes Dark Angels Tacticals different from the Codex: Space Marines ones? Nothing, they are the same unit, barring chapter tactics. Theres no problem with that.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How are these units (Chaos Lord, Possessed, Helbrute, etc.) Death Guard units? They're just regular units. What are regular units doing in a Death Guard army? Why is their dedication to Nurgle not reflected in any way, shape or form? Being a Death Guard Chaos Lord used to mean something. Even if it was something as simple as T5/DR as standard for 1 extra PL or some extra points on top of whatever the cost in the Chaos 'Dex is - that'd be enough.
But right now Death Guard Possessed are just Possessed with the DG Keyword. Same for the Lord, Sorcerer, Helbrute, Cultists - you name it. Beyond that there's literally nothing about them that makes them "Nurgle".
What's the point?
You mean what makes them DG besides the CT, warlord traits, psychic abilities, stratagems, and possibly wargear for the independent character
This idea it doesn't fit in the army if it doesn't have toughness 5 and DR bothers me. Being dedicated to nurgle no longer means inherently tougher, I know that still bothers people but that's not the norm now.
Seriously, does it really beggar belief their might have been some variance in how nurgle effected the chapter as a whole? I think it fits, those that weren't consumed by plague either proved their worth and ascended to a higher rank, were consumed by demons and turned into, or died. There, narrative forged. On and helbrute she weren't effected the same way due to their nature.
Complaining about the cultists is just petty, why would cultists have the same traits as everyone else? Even benefitting from CT is something we kinda handwave.
changemod wrote: Because a Lord of contagion is fluff-wise a Nurgle Chaos Lord, so it's really awkward to divide the unit like that into a guy with less toughness than a basic plague marine but good leadership skills, and a combat HQ with no leadership role.
First off, lords of contagion apparently get fleshed out in the new codex and aren't just a DG/nurgle lord in fluff.
Second, it's not really awkward even from a gameplay perspective. He's simply a DG chaos lord who took on a slightly different aspect. Remember how we had the skeletally thin morty in epic? Something like that.
You can twist words to justify anything in fluff to gameplay relationships, but it may be a good idea to step back and think if you're doing so out of raw contrariness.
Anyhow Typhus was specifically a first captain, and frankly the first captain of a legion is probably easily equivalent to a modern chapter master. Are you saying him having no captain aura actually makes much sense?
Galas wrote: I disagree here. Is the same as saying what makes Dark Angels Tacticals different from the Codex: Space Marines ones? Nothing, they are the same unit, barring chapter tactics. Theres no problem with that.
Sorry that doesn't track.
Plague Marines are different from Chaos Space Marines. The Marines of the Death Guard, due to their devotion to Nurgle, are different to those that are not (Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors). Same could be said of Rubrics, Berzerkers and Noise Marines and their comparison to regular Chaos Space Marines.
But Plague Marine Possessed are... the same? You only get to be a "Nurgle" HQ if you're a Death Guard Lord of Contagion, but not if you're a Death Guard Chaos Lord? What???
changemod wrote: You can twist words to justify anything in fluff to gameplay relationships, but it may be a good idea to step back and think if you're doing so out of raw contrariness.
Anyhow Typhus was specifically a first captain, and frankly the first captain of a legion is probably easily equivalent to a modern chapter master. Are you saying him having no captain aura actually makes much sense?
Well, yes it entirely makes sense typhus wouldn't be a great leader, he's kinda been doing his own thing and is focused far more on disease, particularly the various zombie plagues, than anything to do with his fellow legionnaires. It'd make perfect sense he wouldn't exactly be used to leading his fellow DG marines anymore.
Plague Marines are different from Chaos Space Marines. The Marines of the Death Guard, due to their devotion to Nurgle, are different to those that are not (Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors). Same could be said of Rubrics, Berzerkers and Noise Marines and their comparison to regular Chaos Space Marines.
But Plague Marine Possessed are... the same? You only get to be a "Nurgle" HQ if you're a Death Guard Lord of Contagion, but not if you're a Death Guard Chaos Lord? What???
This is the crux of the issue: even within the DG there is variance in how infected and disease ridden a marine was. That shouldn't be that weird an idea.
Pre traitor legion 6th and 7th, PM were super infected, while nurgle marked everything else were a lesser example. Then traitors legions made the entire army PM level. Now we've changed things again. Most of the army is PM level of infected, with rare exceptions of less infected marines still within the DG operating at normal mark of nurgle levels which yes, isn't enough for a characteristic boost anymore.
Again, this doesn't track. The Chaos Lord dedicated to Nurgle who is part of the Death Guard is no different to the Chaos Lord who isn't. That makes -zero- sense.
Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote: It'd be really interesting to see what kind of mental gymnastic GW will pull to justify screwing over Lords and Sorcerers like that
Again, this doesn't track. The Chaos Lord dedicated to Nurgle who is part of the Death Guard is no different to the Chaos Lord who isn't. That makes -zero- sense.
Plague Marines are different from Chaos Space Marines. The Marines of the Death Guard, due to their devotion to Nurgle, are different to those that are not (Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors). Same could be said of Rubrics, Berzerkers and Noise Marines and their comparison to regular Chaos Space Marines.
But Plague Marine Possessed are... the same? You only get to be a "Nurgle" HQ if you're a Death Guard Lord of Contagion, but not if you're a Death Guard Chaos Lord? What???
This is the crux of the issue: even within the DG there is variance in how infected and disease ridden a marine was. That shouldn't be that weird an idea.
Pre traitor legion 6th and 7th, PM were super infected, while nurgle marked everything else were a lesser example. Then traitors legions made the entire army PM level. Now we've changed things again. Most of the army is PM level of infected, with rare exceptions of less infected marines still within the DG operating at normal mark of nurgle levels which yes, isn't enough for a characteristic boost anymore.
Galas wrote: I disagree here. Is the same as saying what makes Dark Angels Tacticals different from the Codex: Space Marines ones? Nothing, they are the same unit, barring chapter tactics. Theres no problem with that.
Sorry that doesn't track.
Plague Marines are different from Chaos Space Marines. The Marines of the Death Guard, due to their devotion to Nurgle, are different to those that are not (Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors). Same could be said of Rubrics, Berzerkers and Noise Marines and their comparison to regular Chaos Space Marines.
But Plague Marine Possessed are... the same? You only get to be a "Nurgle" HQ if you're a Death Guard Lord of Contagion, but not if you're a Death Guard Chaos Lord? What???
Ok, that makes sense. One can say that they are Chaos Space Marine possesed devoted to Nurgle, not Possesed Plague Marines, but it could be cooler to have all Deathguard units in the DG codex had Death Guard rules, yes.
Again, this doesn't track. The Chaos Lord dedicated to Nurgle who is part of the Death Guard is no different to the Chaos Lord who isn't. That makes -zero- sense.
The idea being marked by nurgle= higher toughness is one that people keep holding onto. It's not. Someone can be devoted to nurgle and have the same characteristics as a normal chaos lord, same with the other gods.
Also, he isn't different besides relics he can wield, warlord traits he can have, CT, stratagems he can use and benefit from, psychic powers for the sorcerer, warhead options, and his required mark of nurgle. As in, he isn't the exact same as a chaos lord, he just isn't different in the exact way you demand he must be, which is mostly a carryover from the last couple codices.
Again, this doesn't track. The Chaos Lord dedicated to Nurgle who is part of the Death Guard is no different to the Chaos Lord who isn't. That makes -zero- sense.
The idea being marked by nurgle= higher toughness is one that people keep holding onto. It's not. Someone can be devoted to nurgle and have the same characteristics as a normal chaos lord, same with the other gods.
Also, he isn't different besides relics he can wield, warlord traits he can have, CT, stratagems he can use and benefit from, psychic powers for the sorcerer, warhead options, and his required mark of nurgle. As in, he isn't the exact same as a chaos lord, he just isn't different in the exact way you demand he must be, which is mostly a carryover from the last couple codices.
But he has a point. The DG codex Chaos Lord isn't a normal Chaos Lord devoted to nurgle. Thats a Chaos Lord of the CSM codex with Mark of Nurgle. He is a Death Guard Chaos Lord, so a Chaos Lord of the Legion dedicated to Nurgle where they all have the Mark of Nurgle 2.0.
I really like the DG helmet on the codex cover, I hope that was based on an actual sculpt option in the kit. All of this stuff looks great. It's been a long time coming but man my steam has run out since I got the starter set. I have all the DG stuff built from that though. I came real close to just selling all of it.
Also not looking forward to seeing the prices on those individual clampack dudes, they look awesome but if they are more than 25 usd each you can forget it.
Galas wrote: But he has a point. The DG codex Chaos Lord isn't a normal Chaos Lord devoted to nurgle. Thats a Chaos Lord of the CSM codex with Mark of Nurgle. He is a Death Guard Chaos Lord, so a Chaos Lord of the Legion dedicated to Nurgle where they all have the Mark of Nurgle 2.0.
"All have mark of nurgle 2.0"? Where did you get that idea out of curiosity. They are all marked by nurgle yes, but traitor legions is the only supplement that made them all toughness 5 and fnp. On the table top, even back when legions had full rules, death guard as whole weren't tougher than anyone else with the mark of nurgle. PM were later on, but even then the fluff tended to indicate the PM were the bread and butter of the DG rather than being the entirety of their legion, with others not going through the same process needed to create them (and yes, it was described as a process to create one). It was really just traitor legions that started identifying DG as being entirely PM, both in fluff and crunch.
People are always really selective when they start talking about how something totally breaks lore, and this is no exception. Every member of the DG is currently not blessed with a plague marine's resilience, some are merely CSM marked normally by nurgle. Historically that's actually more supported than the entire legion being tougher than those marked by nurgle, both looking at fluff and crunch. It's simply a step back from the one most recent in people's minds.
Also not looking forward to seeing the prices on those individual clampack dudes, they look awesome but if they are more than 25 usd each you can forget it.
Man, I hope they don´t get the primaris threatment and come in a box of 4. But clampack seems more propably.
MWG I love don't get me wrong, but to say a Tallyman who costs 67pts and you can get CP's reimbursed on a 7+ every time you use them isn't competitive? HEEEELLLLLOOOOO??????
I understand the upset over the lords and sorcerors, in my eyes since alternative units exist for these already via lord of contagion etc. They either should have left the generic version out or just spent 5-10 mins giving it a new name and a slight tweak to make it more thematic.
stewe128 wrote: MWG I love don't get me wrong, but to say a Tallyman who costs 67pts and you can get CP's reimbursed on a 7+ every time you use them isn't competitive? HEEEELLLLLOOOOO??????
It's not a 7+
It's precisely 7. Nurgle's number. An 8 gets you nothing. MWG pretty much said they initially made the same mistake.
stewe128 wrote: MWG I love don't get me wrong, but to say a Tallyman who costs 67pts and you can get CP's reimbursed on a 7+ every time you use them isn't competitive? HEEEELLLLLOOOOO??????
Is it a 7+ in a 2d6, or a EXACT 7 in a 2d6? I think is a exact 7. Still, that+ the rerrol to meele hits like the Dark Apostle is very usefull for his point cost.
Dudeface wrote: I understand the upset over the lords and sorcerors, in my eyes since alternative units exist for these already via lord of contagion etc. They either should have left the generic version out or just spent 5-10 mins giving it a new name and a slight tweak to make it more thematic.
If Lords of Contagion and whatever the sorcerer is called are sufficiently customisable then there isn't really an issue.
Dudeface wrote: I understand the upset over the lords and sorcerors, in my eyes since alternative units exist for these already via lord of contagion etc. They either should have left the generic version out or just spent 5-10 mins giving it a new name and a slight tweak to make it more thematic.
If Lords of Contagion and whatever the sorcerer is called are sufficiently customisable then there isn't really an issue.
This.
If I have the option to give my Plaguecaster a Force Sword then I couldn't give a rat's arse. If it's a fixed build then I've got sword Sorcerers who just won't fit in with the rest of my T5, FNP power armoured horde.
Dudeface wrote: I understand the upset over the lords and sorcerors, in my eyes since alternative units exist for these already via lord of contagion etc. They either should have left the generic version out or just spent 5-10 mins giving it a new name and a slight tweak to make it more thematic.
If Lords of Contagion and whatever the sorcerer is called are sufficiently customisable then there isn't really an issue.
Oh yeah, Lords of Contagion have tons of options.
You can have a Plaguereaper or a Manreaper. Revel in the limitless possibilities
I disagree here. Is the same as saying what makes Dark Angels Tacticals different from the Codex: Space Marines ones? Nothing, they are the same unit, barring chapter tactics. Theres no problem with that.
The difference here is that there has never really been a precedent for Dark Angel tacticals to be statistically different from baseline Codex SM tacticals.
There HAS been such a precedent from 2nd edition for Nurgle marked units to be statistically different, particularly with Death Guard.
In 2nd ed the MoN was a straight toughness boost.
In 3rd ed - again, a straight toughness boost. The IA article went a little further, added restrictions, altered some units to Plague Units and gave True-Grit about.
In 3.5 we got a mini-list where, again MoN gave a straight toughness boost. It also restricted weapon options and granted fearless.
In late 4th we got a horrible book but again, MoN granted the toughness boost.
In 6th....are you seeing the pattern?
And in Traitor Legions in 7th we got proper Plague Units back again.
And now we've got....
A bunch of generic units that don't really have anything more than a few keywords to indicate that their part of a completely different army. Furthermore, they don't really benefit in the slightest from half the army's rules or its trait. Perhaps not so bad if you're a new player as you can happily avoid the trap and just build a proper plague army with massed T5 and DR and plague weapons...
But for existing players? It's pretty terrible. The World Eaters trait is a lot more close to theme in the CSM book and at least creates a semblance of WE armies - a lot more than the sad mess we got here.
It's really sad when figurehead characters and elite units (Lords, Sorcerers, Possessed) are far more fragile than the baseline units in the army - such things are meant to be the peak of the army they are part of...not weaker than it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How are these units (Chaos Lord, Possessed, Helbrute, etc.) Death Guard units? They're just regular units. What are regular units doing in a Death Guard army? Why is their dedication to Nurgle not reflected in any way, shape or form? Being a Death Guard Chaos Lord used to mean something. Even if it was something as simple as T5/DR as standard for 1 extra PL or some extra points on top of whatever the cost in the Chaos 'Dex is - that'd be enough.
But right now Death Guard Possessed are just Possessed with the DG Keyword. Same for the Lord, Sorcerer, Helbrute, Cultists - you name it. Beyond that there's literally nothing about them that makes them "Nurgle".
What's the point?
You mean what makes them DG besides the CT, warlord traits, psychic abilities, stratagems, and possibly wargear for the independent character
This idea it doesn't fit in the army if it doesn't have toughness 5 and DR bothers me. Being dedicated to nurgle no longer means inherently tougher, I know that still bothers people but that's not the norm now.
Seriously, does it really beggar belief their might have been some variance in how nurgle effected the chapter as a whole? I think it fits, those that weren't consumed by plague either proved their worth and ascended to a higher rank, were consumed by demons and turned into, or died. There, narrative forged. On and helbrute she weren't effected the same way due to their nature.
Complaining about the cultists is just petty, why would cultists have the same traits as everyone else? Even benefitting from CT is something we kinda handwave.
You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.
I agree with you on Cultists and Helbrutes not needing Disgustingly Resilient (Helbrutes getting the whole range weapon bonus is fitting enough for a Chapter Tactic equivalent), but I'd rather a price increase for Lords, Sorcerers, and Possessed out of principle and they get that benefit. I want some consistency ya know?
You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.
don't you think is strange too that just a few BA get black rage; or a few DA units only get jinks or unforgiven? ... the fact you expect every single unit out of a legion codex will get the same treatment as a few, makes me question what the heck did everyone expect from the beginning
You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.
don't you think is strange too that just a few BA get black rage; or a few DA units only get jinks or unforgiven? ... the fact you expect every single unit out of a legion codex will get the same treatment as a few, makes me question what the heck did everyone expect from the beginning
Ah, you mean that the only units that get Black Rage were the only units that actually in background are suffering from it?
Or the only units that Jink or have Unforgiven are the only units that actually have them?
If you want to dig for an equivalent you're going to have to try a lot harder than sticking out specialist elite units in specific armies that are above and beyond the core baseline troops in the army...
As your counter argument for an army where we now have HQs and specialist elite units (Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed) that are now WEAKER than core baseline troops.
Those sorts of things are supposed to be exemplars. They're supposed to be superior to the core baseline troop. Not weaker than them.
A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.
I disagree here. Is the same as saying what makes Dark Angels Tacticals different from the Codex: Space Marines ones? Nothing, they are the same unit, barring chapter tactics. Theres no problem with that.
The difference here is that there has never really been a precedent for Dark Angel tacticals to be statistically different from baseline Codex SM tacticals.
There HAS been such a precedent from 2nd edition for Nurgle marked units to be statistically different, particularly with Death Guard.
In 2nd ed the MoN was a straight toughness boost.
In 3rd ed - again, a straight toughness boost. The IA article went a little further, added restrictions, altered some units to Plague Units and gave True-Grit about.
In 3.5 we got a mini-list where, again MoN gave a straight toughness boost. It also restricted weapon options and granted fearless.
In late 4th we got a horrible book but again, MoN granted the toughness boost.
In 6th....are you seeing the pattern?
And in Traitor Legions in 7th we got proper Plague Units back again.
And now we've got....
A bunch of generic units that don't really have anything more than a few keywords to indicate that their part of a completely different army. Furthermore, they don't really benefit in the slightest from half the army's rules or its trait. Perhaps not so bad if you're a new player as you can happily avoid the trap and just build a proper plague army with massed T5 and DR and plague weapons...
But for existing players? It's pretty terrible. The World Eaters trait is a lot more close to theme in the CSM book and at least creates a semblance of WE armies - a lot more than the sad mess we got here.
It's really sad when figurehead characters and elite units (Lords, Sorcerers, Possessed) are far more fragile than the baseline units in the army - such things are meant to be the peak of the army they are part of...not weaker than it.
I can see your point and I agree, they seem like generic units put there just to fill space. But to be honest, the rest of the Codex is just so lovely and those untis are a small percentage that... I can forgive them for this
In fact, the whole weaker than the base troop is exactly the sort of gak that put me off the 6th ed Codex entirely.
At least this time round we're getting Plague Terminators so I can at least be happy that my horrendously expensive elite unit isn't weaker and more prone to running away than my baseline troop.
I can see your point and I agree, they seem like generic units put there just to fill space. But to be honest, the rest of the Codex is just so lovely and those untis are a small percentage that... I can forgive them for this
I can't.
Sure, the units are a small percentage. But Lords and Sorcerers are kind of important characters - and unless you happened to conveniently build your Sorcerers with a Force Staff and your Lords in Terminator Armour with a double handed axe or scythe....you're pretty much getting the short end of the stick here.
It's almost as much a thematic mess as the old 4th-5th ed book was where if a unit dropped its Icon it somehow lost its mark and could go skipping off to worship another Chaos God.
A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.
don't you believe the lord of contagion is that equivalent ... or the plaguecaster is for the sorcerer? not everything has to be busted to be the defacto of every legion army ... specially when they are specific units that cover that role
A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.
don't you believe the lord of contagion is that equivalent ... or the plaguecaster is for the sorcerer? not everything has to be busted to be the defacto of every legion army ... specially when they are specific units that cover that role
And yet rather than combine the two generic roles into the LoC and Plaguecaster and giving those unit types options (Power Armour for the LoC, different weapon options for both) they instead....
Kept the generic ones.
Kept the specialist ones.
As I have already said, unless you have conveniently build your Chaos Lord in Terminator armour with a double handed axe or scythe, or conveniently gave your Sorcerer a force staff....you're pretty much out of luck.
Would have been fairly easy for the LoC to get the reroll aura since the Warlord Traits incorporate the Mortal Wound bubble now - but I suspect we're going to see some pretty terrible redundancy there.
And your busted comment? I laugh. So you are trying to tell me that not everything in a Legion army that is KNOWN FOR ITS RESILIENCE and has pretty much in all incarnations been the high toughness, good armour, high resilience, small numbers army should have high toughness or resilience?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.
I agree with you on Cultists and Helbrutes not needing Disgustingly Resilient (Helbrutes getting the whole range weapon bonus is fitting enough for a Chapter Tactic equivalent), but I'd rather a price increase for Lords, Sorcerers, and Possessed out of principle and they get that benefit. I want some consistency ya know?
No I can honestly say it doesn't bother me.
Let's lay out the options we now have: we have a budget plain chaos lord to act as a buffing unit. A chaos lord on a palanquin to act as a slightly tougher buffing unit, fits better with the rest of the army's statline for those who are bothered. Then a daemon prince for an expensive but tough HQ that can both buff and fight well. Finally, we have a lord of contagion, for those who don't care about winning and just want to use the new models or have a "real" deathguard lord.
Over reliance on "unique" units could mean we have no cheap HQ options and even no decent HQs that can actually make the army work well. I mean, why shouldn't all our HQs have both the reroll aura and the mortal wound aura, toughness 5, DR, and a maybe even a wound more than normal to match the LoC? It's the most fluffy, even if it's horrific from anyone wanting to build a decent list. Same with whoever thought we should only have LoC, that's literally being upset they didn't arbitrarily weaken our army.
Balancing fluff with practicality is important, that's why marines are toned down on tabletop compared to how they are in fluff. Currently we have a good balance, plenty of fluffier options for those who care (chaos lord mounted on nurgling, daemon prince, or LoC).
DarkStarSabre wrote: Those sorts of things are supposed to be exemplars. They're supposed to be superior to the core baseline troop. Not weaker than them.
A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.
Maybe this will start a trend where HQs and officers aren't chosen for their raw combat skill in defiance of logic and practically.
That's actually wonderful. We have an HQ that's look it was chosen for actual tactical acumen rather than how good he was in a fight. We have the first HQ in warhammer that makes even a little sense, that's kinda cool actually:
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DarkStarSabre wrote: And yet rather than combine the two generic roles into the LoC and Plaguecaster and giving those unit types options (Power Armour for the LoC, different weapon options for both) they instead....
Does the thought of having a decent army scare you or something? Why would I want to pay for those useless auras and generally unneeded defensive buffs on my cheap buffing HQs?
stewe128 wrote: MWG I love don't get me wrong, but to say a Tallyman who costs 67pts and you can get CP's reimbursed on a 7+ every time you use them isn't competitive? HEEEELLLLLOOOOO??????
It's not a 7+
It's precisely 7. Nurgle's number. An 8 gets you nothing. MWG pretty much said they initially made the same mistake.
Yep. It's a 1 in 6 (or 16.67%) chance to have your CPs refunded.
If you believe every generic unit should be the same high toughness and resilience 'cause hurr durr DG, then yes. Otherwise, suck it up and realize it isn't as sweet as you hope ... thinking gw will give monopose models more weapon option is a thing of the past
aracersss wrote: If you believe every generic unit should be the same high toughness and resilience 'cause hurr durr DG, then yes. Otherwise, suck it up and realize it isn't as sweet as you hope ... thinking gw will give monopose models more weapon option is a thing of the past
And we resort to the insults already. Cute.
How about this. I block your sorry trolling self and have to see your pointless input no longer. Have a nice day.
insulting are you serious? you are the one mocking people 'cause they believe not everything in a codex should have every single rule that makes an army ... you blatant sarcasm is what originates these pointless debates ... low move
T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
aracersss wrote: If you believe every generic unit should be the same high toughness and resilience 'cause hurr durr DG, then yes.
What is the name of the codex again? Exactly.
Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.
Not reducing poxwalkers from 6 ppm to 5 ppm is mind boggling. I have to hope that they increase the cost of conscripts, ork boyz, and storm boyz to put things more into line. Also disappointed with the tallyman and apothecary. The grenade guy is cool. Wish we had more unique stratagems.
That being said, Mortarion is absolutely amazing. I just did a test ITC game with him. There are some incredible combos you can do, especially if you bring in Nurgle Daemon or CSM allies for other psychic powers. Wonder how long it will take people to figure out the best combo...it was super sexy in my test game.
Virules wrote: Not reducing poxwalkers from 6 ppm to 5 ppm is mind boggling. I have to hope that they increase the cost of conscripts, ork boyz, and storm boyz to put things more into line. Also disappointed with the tallyman and apothecary. The grenade guy is cool. Wish we had more unique stratagems.
That being said, Mortarion is absolutely amazing. I just did a test ITC game with him. There are some incredible combos you can do, especially if you bring in Nurgle Daemon or CSM allies for other psychic powers. Wonder how long it will take people to figure out the best combo...it was super sexy in my test game.
Eh, Typhus didn't get a points increase so I'd say it balances out since if you're running any great numbers of 'em he'll be an auto-include.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.
I agree with you on Cultists and Helbrutes not needing Disgustingly Resilient (Helbrutes getting the whole range weapon bonus is fitting enough for a Chapter Tactic equivalent), but I'd rather a price increase for Lords, Sorcerers, and Possessed out of principle and they get that benefit. I want some consistency ya know?
No I can honestly say it doesn't bother me.
Let's lay out the options we now have: we have a budget plain chaos lord to act as a buffing unit. A chaos lord on a palanquin to act as a slightly tougher buffing unit, fits better with the rest of the army's statline for those who are bothered. Then a daemon prince for an expensive but tough HQ that can both buff and fight well. Finally, we have a lord of contagion, for those who don't care about winning and just want to use the new models or have a "real" deathguard lord.
Over reliance on "unique" units could mean we have no cheap HQ options and even no decent HQs that can actually make the army work well. I mean, why shouldn't all our HQs have both the reroll aura and the mortal wound aura, toughness 5, DR, and a maybe even a wound more than normal to match the LoC? It's the most fluffy, even if it's horrific from anyone wanting to build a decent list. Same with whoever thought we should only have LoC, that's literally being upset they didn't arbitrarily weaken our army.
Balancing fluff with practicality is important, that's why marines are toned down on tabletop compared to how they are in fluff. Currently we have a good balance, plenty of fluffier options for those who care (chaos lord mounted on nurgling, daemon prince, or LoC).
DarkStarSabre wrote: Those sorts of things are supposed to be exemplars. They're supposed to be superior to the core baseline troop. Not weaker than them.
A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.
Maybe this will start a trend where HQs and officers aren't chosen for their raw combat skill in defiance of logic and practically.
That's actually wonderful. We have an HQ that's look it was chosen for actual tactical acumen rather than how good he was in a fight. We have the first HQ in warhammer that makes even a little sense, that's kinda cool actually:
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DarkStarSabre wrote: And yet rather than combine the two generic roles into the LoC and Plaguecaster and giving those unit types options (Power Armour for the LoC, different weapon options for both) they instead....
Does the thought of having a decent army scare you or something? Why would I want to pay for those useless auras and generally unneeded defensive buffs on my cheap buffing HQs?
You're literally denying fluff.
The Lord of Contagion and Chaos Lord should have different abilities, but they should BOTH have T5 and Disgustingly Resilient. This isn't hard to figure out. This is Death Guard HQ, not generic Nurgle HQ. This is the Legion that has utterly dedicated themselves to Nurgle, not just received a couple of buffs. This is about consistency and completionism. This isn't whether the HQ is chosen because they're good in a fight or not!
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NinthMusketeer wrote: T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
You add 10-15 points just like with the last codex. It isn't particularly hard to figure out ya know.
I admit I am somewhat disappointed the Warlord Traits seem to be more of the same, even though they are in keeping with Nurgle's theme of toughness and enduring. Of the 6, a whole 4 basically revolve around various means of damage mitigation, and another is basically another plague aura.
I was hoping for something perhaps emphasizing Nurgle in his aspect of Decay of all things, not just flesh. I note for example the Pallid Hand are infected with something called the Ferric Blight which is an infection that corrodes metal. Something like a Warlord Trait specifically affecting vehicles, like the Warpsmith's ability, might have been nice, and shows how Nurgle is also opposed to the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Tau with all their attempts to resist entropy by building shiny machines and constructs.
Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.
NinthMusketeer wrote: T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
You add 10-15 points just like with the last codex. It isn't particularly hard to figure out ya know.
Yeah such as a new codex would be a great chance to modify points!
I think, genuinely what you're seeing is a distant echo of the no-model-no-rules policy. While this could have been circumvented by a simple wargear piece (read: Mark of Nurgle) for the characters...I think they would have considered having an alternate entry reading "Plague Chaos Lord" etc...and you simply won't get rules without a proper model. Same reason your wargear options are woefully sad.
It's probably the worst knock-on effect in the entire 40K build right now.
Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.
The disappointment may be from the point that people's models are only useful if they conform to the newest model being sold such as chaos lords. There is no reason all deathguard shouldn't have t5 with DR since they are deathguard...
Pseudomonas wrote: Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.
Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in. The ultimate reason why there isn't a "Lord of Contagion" option with power armour is that GW don't make a model for him. So you get a Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armour in a Death Guard Codex with no special rules that mark him out as a member of the Death Guard.
NinthMusketeer wrote: T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
False dilemma.
This should have been worked into the rules prior to the Codex coming out. And it wouldn't need to be everything.
Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.
Models are fantastic.
What sounds so utterly dissappointing is how this GW utterly fails to handle Chaos releases.
The lack of Toughness 5 and DR on Chaos Lords/Sorcerers and possessed is simply unforgivable. It's a failure understand what fans wanted and a failure to interpret their own fluff on a basic level that is so worringly obvious that it throws into doubt every other release GW has yet to do; what will the next army lose?
What was the point of releasing a DEATHGUARD codex with vanilla units in it? These aren't the codex adherent astartes - these are devout followers of nurgle without his signature blessings and rules to make the army different.
Why should I spend $50 on a book that wasn't the best they had to offer me? Why should any of us reward them for this lazy cut and paste job?
I don't think I will be purchasing the codex, as sad as it is, until they fix this. If I do, it'll be at a massive discount from a 3rd party. Even still, it makes me scared for my thousand sons, who already have virtually nothing.
Will they get copy and paste sorcerers and lords?
What about possessed? World Eaters?
How will they feth over Blood Angels?
Really discouraging given how I've waited almost 6 months for this flop.
Pseudomonas wrote: Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.
Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in. The ultimate reason why there isn't a "Lord of Contagion" option with power armour is that GW don't make a model for him. So you get a Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armour in a Death Guard Codex with no special rules that mark him out as a member of the Death Guard.
NinthMusketeer wrote: T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
False dilemma.
This should have been worked into the rules prior to the Codex coming out. And it wouldn't need to be everything.
The sheer fact that I agree with everything H.B.M.C. has said in this thread is an eye-opening prospect.
I don't think this is the result of laziness. I think what you are seeing is the direct manifestation of model-driven rules. The Chaos Lord comes in a box with "Chaos Lord" on it. That particular model has a specific set of rules (aka datasheet) tied to it. If you include it in your army it will have that set of rules regardless of what army you're playing. Do DG use a different model for their Chaos Lord than CSM? No? Then the rules are the same.
This is the No Model No Rules policy taken to the extreme. Not only do you not get rules where no model exists to represent them, the correspondence is now strictly one-to-one. No more using the same model to represent different things. And heaven help you if I catch you converting something to use as something else.
I'm sure somewhere in the studio they've got a big binder of datasheets sorted by SKU.
Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.
Models are fantastic.
What sounds so utterly dissappointing is how this GW utterly fails to handle Chaos releases.
The lack of Toughness 5 and DR on Chaos Lords/Sorcerers and possessed is simply unforgivable. It's a failure understand what fans wanted and a failure to interpret their own fluff on a basic level that is so worringly obvious that it throws into doubt every other release GW has yet to do; what will the next army lose?
What was the point of releasing a DEATHGUARD codex with vanilla units in it? These aren't the codex adherent astartes - these are devout followers of nurgle without his signature blessings and rules to make the army different.
Why should I spend $50 on a book that wasn't the best they had to offer me? Why should any of us reward them for this lazy cut and paste job?
I don't think I will be purchasing the codex, as sad as it is, until they fix this. If I do, it'll be at a massive discount from a 3rd party. Even still, it makes me scared for my thousand sons, who already have virtually nothing.
Will they get copy and paste sorcerers and lords?
What about possessed? World Eaters?
How will they feth over Blood Angels?
Really discouraging given how I've waited almost 6 months for this flop.
Pseudomonas wrote: Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.
Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in. The ultimate reason why there isn't a "Lord of Contagion" option with power armour is that GW don't make a model for him. So you get a Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armour in a Death Guard Codex with no special rules that mark him out as a member of the Death Guard.
NinthMusketeer wrote: T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
False dilemma.
This should have been worked into the rules prior to the Codex coming out. And it wouldn't need to be everything.
The sheer fact that I agree with everything H.B.M.C. has said in this thread is an eye-opening prospect.
Fair enough, but I think it has something to do with game balance. Also, in the long run, I do not think these models missing the +1t and DR are going to make that huge of a difference. Does it screw with the theme of the army? Sure. But lets be honest, it doesn't make the army unplayable.
The far more likely (and demonstrably so) reason is the one Doobie gave above. This is the "No Model/No Rules" policy in its ultimate form - hard baked into a brand new Codex that allows zero variation from the plastic miniatures they sell and, more importantly, as they sell them.
I've got a Chaos Lord miniature with the Death Guard Terminator FW conversion kit. He has twin Lightning Claws. He will be T4 whilst his 9 other Nurgle Terminator buddies get to be T5/DR because... GW don't sell a Death Guard Terminator Lord kit.
NinthMusketeer wrote: T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
You add 10-15 points just like with the last codex. It isn't particularly hard to figure out ya know.
Yeah such as a new codex would be a great chance to modify points!
I should have clarified; I meant that may be why GW didn't do it, even though I think they should have. A reason, not an excuse.
The far more likely (and demonstrably so) reason is the one Doobie gave above. This is the "No Model/No Rules" policy in its ultimate form - hard baked into a brand new Codex that allows zero variation from the plastic miniatures they sell and, more importantly, as they sell them.
I've got a Chaos Lord miniature with the Death Guard Terminator FW conversion kit. He has twin Lightning Claws. He will be T4 whilst his 9 other Nurgle Terminator buddies get to be T5/DR because... GW don't sell a Death Guard Terminator Lord kit.
Give him the warlord trait Hulking Physique if you really want him to be T5 with his buddies. I know it's a big sacrifice but RAW for now that's the best you can do.
Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.
Models are fantastic.
What sounds so utterly dissappointing is how this GW utterly fails to handle Chaos releases.
The lack of Toughness 5 and DR on Chaos Lords/Sorcerers and possessed is simply unforgivable. It's a failure understand what fans wanted and a failure to interpret their own fluff on a basic level that is so worringly obvious that it throws into doubt every other release GW has yet to do; what will the next army lose?
What was the point of releasing a DEATHGUARD codex with vanilla units in it? These aren't the codex adherent astartes - these are devout followers of nurgle without his signature blessings and rules to make the army different.
Why should I spend $50 on a book that wasn't the best they had to offer me? Why should any of us reward them for this lazy cut and paste job?
I don't think I will be purchasing the codex, as sad as it is, until they fix this. If I do, it'll be at a massive discount from a 3rd party. Even still, it makes me scared for my thousand sons, who already have virtually nothing.
Will they get copy and paste sorcerers and lords?
What about possessed? World Eaters?
How will they feth over Blood Angels?
Really discouraging given how I've waited almost 6 months for this flop.
Pseudomonas wrote: Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.
Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in. The ultimate reason why there isn't a "Lord of Contagion" option with power armour is that GW don't make a model for him. So you get a Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armour in a Death Guard Codex with no special rules that mark him out as a member of the Death Guard.
NinthMusketeer wrote: T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
False dilemma.
This should have been worked into the rules prior to the Codex coming out. And it wouldn't need to be everything.
The sheer fact that I agree with everything H.B.M.C. has said in this thread is an eye-opening prospect.
Fair enough, but I think it has something to do with game balance. Also, in the long run, I do not think these models missing the +1t and DR are going to make that huge of a difference. [/spoiler]Does it screw with the theme of the army? Sure. But lets be honest, it doesn't make the army unplayable.
It does if you play for the theme. What about that do you not understand?
I had to suffer through this garbage in 7th playing Blood Angels, I'm not going to again.
470 pts. for Mortarion. Seems a little high, imo, especially with Rouboute across the field costing 120 less than that. Really impressed with Plagueburst Crawlers. Probably auto-include 3 of those in each list. Also, my favorite unit is probably the new blight hauler. Not only are the rules good, but I LOVE the model. Can't wait to get my hands on some of these new units.
puma713 wrote: 470 pts. for Mortarion. Seems a little high, imo, especially with Rouboute across the field costing 120 less than that. Really impressed with Plagueburst Crawlers. Probably auto-include 3 of those in each list. Also, my favorite unit is probably the new blight hauler. Not only are the rules good, but I LOVE the model. Can't wait to get my hands on some of these new units.
I think we all know that Roboute is at least 25-50 points undercosted. That being said, I did two test games with proxy mortarion today with nurgle daemon allies, and he was incredible. In the first game he killed a bunch of primaris marines, a storm raven, and then killed Gullimen twice. In the second game he killed a trygon, old one eye, 3 carnifexes, 17 genestealers, and 2 zoanthropes. In both games the only reason Morty didn't kill more things is because I tabled my opponent and ran out of targets.
puma713 wrote: 470 pts. for Mortarion. Seems a little high, imo, especially with Rouboute across the field costing 120 less than that. Really impressed with Plagueburst Crawlers. Probably auto-include 3 of those in each list. Also, my favorite unit is probably the new blight hauler. Not only are the rules good, but I LOVE the model. Can't wait to get my hands on some of these new units.
I think we all know that Roboute is at least 25-50 points undercosted. That being said, I did two test games with proxy mortarion today with nurgle daemon allies, and he was incredible. In the first game he killed a bunch of primaris marines, a storm raven, and then killed Gullimen twice. In the second game he killed a trygon, old one eye, 3 carnifexes, 17 genestealers, and 2 zoanthropes. In both games the only reason Morty didn't kill more things is because I tabled my opponent and ran out of targets.
That's encouraging. Did you run Deathshrouds with him to intercept wounds? Or did you just run Morty to test him? Would you say 470 pts. is fair?
Personally, I think a unit of Deathshrouds + Plague Surgeon + Mortarion, while expensive, would be nigh unstoppable.
I ran him in an army of all nurgle daemons with lots of stuff to get into my opponent's way so that Morty isn't the only thing they have to worry about shooting / Morty isn't easily reached by the enemy in melee to get ganged up on. I think Death Guard are still too expensive and too slow, so it is actually harder for DG to support morty compared to Nurgle Daemons.
The nurgle daemon psychic powers are nice to throw on Morty, but ultimately he didn't need them. If he can avoid dying the first two turns and can mostly pick and choose his fights, then he can cast two buffs on himself and operate without any support other than having a few other melee units nearby to tie things up (he can't fight the ENTIRE enemy army alone, after all).
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, is there a list anywhere showing which CSM stratagems made it into the DG book? There are 6 DG unique ones and 14 in the book, so 8 should have made it from the CSM book.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in.
They really need to reevaluate their world then. This 'monopose' gak does nothing to prevent people making alternative miniatures and it only hurts gamers, or more specifically modellers.
Elbows wrote: I think, genuinely what you're seeing is a distant echo of the no-model-no-rules policy. While this could have been circumvented by a simple wargear piece (read: Mark of Nurgle) for the characters...I think they would have considered having an alternate entry reading "Plague Chaos Lord" etc...and you simply won't get rules without a proper model. Same reason your wargear options are woefully sad.
It's probably the worst knock-on effect in the entire 40K build right now.
This is absolutely 100% correct. Its all the ugly effects of bureaucracy. It is like a computer made this decision because its so single minded, its so devoid of common sense. It is a decision made by someone who don't play this game.
Everyone who is trying to justify this decision by elaborate explanations is doing so in vain, except giving me a good laugh.
It is all about consistency and the larger picture. The only way we are getting the lord and sorcerer back is if they make a kit for them with all the options.
PS: The thing in the pictures from the rulebook which was speculated about being the new beast of Nurgle. It has those perforated hollowed globes all over, which you can see throughout the DG range. This indicates to me that it is not of daemonic nature, and its face plate looks a lot like the bloat drones. But seeing as its noting in the DG codex about it I'm sceptical. Either its just artists freedom, but seeing we have less and less of that these days probably not. It could be a daemon engine destined for the daemons codex.
Can we recap a second on the Blightlord Terminators? If I understand correctly for just 7pts more your terminator get +1R DR and 4++ and that minor bonus on ap in melee... this is absolutely amazing! And being the grenade launcher a special weapon everyone can get it right? While for the heavy we just got the pathetic autocannon and a couple of flamers that wont have enough range to hurt in Deep Strike. And what about the Big Cleaver? A marine use it with both hands, any possibility that the terminator can use it with one?
I have some questions:
Will my Grave Warden make for decent Blight Lord proxies? Can I equip all five with Blight Launchers (ie. the grenade launcher) and some powerfist equivalent?
Are there any pictures of the Datasheets, specifically Mortarion?
Do you think deathshroud from FW are about the same size (same base?) As the new GW ones?
DarklyDreaming wrote: Can we recap a second on the Blightlord Terminators? If I understand correctly for just 7pts more your terminator get +1R DR and 4++ and that minor bonus on ap in melee... this is absolutely amazing! And being the grenade launcher a special weapon everyone can get it right? While for the heavy we just got the pathetic autocannon and a couple of flamers that wont have enough range to hurt in Deep Strike. And what about the Big Cleaver? A marine use it with both hands, any possibility that the terminator can use it with one?
Except the fact that the rest of the weapons being Plague Weapons will have had a points hike too.
This means that those Terminators may be even more expensive.
broxus wrote: So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?
For summoning.
Can't they already summon any demons from the index?
Can you imagine what this thread would be like if one of the special rules included in the new Codex relied entirely on buying a separate book to get the unit rules?
broxus wrote: So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?
For summoning.
Can't they already summon any demons from the index?
Can you imagine what this thread would be like if one of the special rules included in the new Codex relied entirely on buying a separate book to get the unit rules?
You say this like you expect people to actually summon daemons nowadays rather than start them on the board in their own detachment.
Our normal Terminators - we can pretty much guess that our flamer, heavy flamer, power axes and power swords are becoming plague equivalents. And with the exception of the Balesword we have the points for everything in the CSM book - or can figure them out.
We also know that our base terminators are 7 points more.
Ok. Fair enough. But I have important questions.
Power Fists (safe to assume still in). Chainfists. Power Mauls. Lightning Claws (suspect still in due to the Chaos Lord).
I ask as my local GW has a tournament the Sunday after release and my current list is revolving around a Terminator blob and a Daemon Prince Vanguard detachment so would like to start figuring out rough points.
With various daemons being in the codex itself filling various slots... does including them in those slots keep your army from becoming Battleforged?
For example, if I have a full Death Guard Battalion and include Plaguebearers in the Troop slot, do I still get all the bonuses of having a Death Guard Battalion?
Many people on FB saying that just because they are Nurgle and they are in the codex does NOT make them Death Guard and so, they must be taken in a separate detachment of Daemons. This seems completely ridiculous to me but I don't know any better.
broxus wrote: So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?
For summoning.
I'm not clear why summoning would interfere with battleforged status. If the units all share the key word nurgle, and fill out unit break down, where do things go wrong?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Because the need is for Heretic Astartes or Death Guard.. Which Daemons don't have.
While I understand the logic here, it seems completely contradictory. Why include the Daemons in the codex if I am punished for bringing them? Why include the Daemons in the codex if I am meant to bring them in a separate detachment... but not include a Daemon HQ? It seems like they should have just left them out and told us all to wait for the Daemon codex to drop. I don't really see the point if I am actually punished for bringing them.
The example in the rule book explicitly uses a space marine as an hq and then stated that a battle forged army must have either imperial or astartes faction key words. A death guard HQ model has chaos, heretic astartes, nurgle, Deathguard faction keywords, any unit included in the formation must have one of those words in common. A plague bearer and Deathguard both share nurgle, so nurgle becomes the unifying faction keyword for the force. Battleforged criteria met?
Kendo wrote: The example in the rule book explicitly uses a space marine as an hq and then stated that a battle forged army must have either imperial or astartes faction key words. A death guard HQ model has chaos, heretic astartes, nurgle, Deathguard faction keywords, any unit included in the formation must have one of those words in common. A plague bearer and Deathguard both share nurgle, so nurgle becomes the unifying faction keyword for the force. Battleforged criteria met?
Correct, it is Battle Forged.
However, any special rules requiring the entire detachment to have the DEATH GUARD keyword would not apply, as Plaguebearers lack the keyword.
Once the first round starts, faction keywords become pointless. You could summon Khorne daemons if it was possible and not lose battleforged. The Dev Commentary states that.
So summoning some nurgle daemons with characters won't cause you to suddenly lose DG stuff. Especially since you don't need to say what the summoning points will be used on ahead of time.
You only get the benefits of being a Death Guard detachment if every unit has the DEATH GUARD keyword. The daemons don't have it. A detachment can still be battle-forged if you mix them in, but it won't be a "Death Guard detachment" and so won't be able to use certain faction abilities.
The daemon units are included in the Codex because Death Guard characters have a special rule that allows them to summon daemons. There were a small number of daemon units in the Chaos Space Marines Codex for the same reason.
Units summoned in this way don't affect factions as they're added from your reinforcements points pool rather than being part of a detachment.
So, if you make an army that's entirely DEATH GUARD, you can still get the Death Guard goodies, and also use Dark Ritual to summon daemons, which you don't even need to purchase an extra book to use.
Yes, you can include the daemons in a detachment with Death Guard units. You can even have a detachment with Death Guard and daemons and then a detachment of Ultramarines and still be battleforged -- this is not very restrictive.
What people mean to be pointing out is that (if Death Guard work like every other codex we've seen so far) including daemons in a detachment will mean that it is no longer a "Death Guard" detachment. Therefore Death Guard units in it won't get 18" rapid-fire and so on, and it won't unlock Death Guard stratagems.
Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.
Models are fantastic.
What sounds so utterly dissappointing is how this GW utterly fails to handle Chaos releases.
The lack of Toughness 5 and DR on Chaos Lords/Sorcerers and possessed is simply unforgivable. It's a failure understand what fans wanted and a failure to interpret their own fluff on a basic level that is so worringly obvious that it throws into doubt every other release GW has yet to do; what will the next army lose?
What was the point of releasing a DEATHGUARD codex with vanilla units in it? These aren't the codex adherent astartes - these are devout followers of nurgle without his signature blessings and rules to make the army different.
Why should I spend $50 on a book that wasn't the best they had to offer me? Why should any of us reward them for this lazy cut and paste job?
I don't think I will be purchasing the codex, as sad as it is, until they fix this. If I do, it'll be at a massive discount from a 3rd party. Even still, it makes me scared for my thousand sons, who already have virtually nothing.
Will they get copy and paste sorcerers and lords?
What about possessed? World Eaters?
How will they feth over Blood Angels?
Really discouraging given how I've waited almost 6 months for this flop.
Pseudomonas wrote: Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.
Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in. The ultimate reason why there isn't a "Lord of Contagion" option with power armour is that GW don't make a model for him. So you get a Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armour in a Death Guard Codex with no special rules that mark him out as a member of the Death Guard.
NinthMusketeer wrote: T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
False dilemma.
This should have been worked into the rules prior to the Codex coming out. And it wouldn't need to be everything.
The sheer fact that I agree with everything H.B.M.C. has said in this thread is an eye-opening prospect.
Fair enough, but I think it has something to do with game balance. Also, in the long run, I do not think these models missing the +1t and DR are going to make that huge of a difference. [/spoiler]Does it screw with the theme of the army? Sure. But lets be honest, it doesn't make the army unplayable.
It does if you play for the theme. What about that do you not understand?
I had to suffer through this garbage in 7th playing Blood Angels, I'm not going to again.
I think we can all agree that New GW is 10 times better than what it was. This seems to me like people still have to find a reason to complain about something.
Dionysodorus wrote: Yes, you can include the daemons in a detachment with Death Guard units. You can even have a detachment with Death Guard and daemons and then a detachment of Ultramarines and still be battleforged -- this is not very restrictive.
What people mean to be pointing out is that (if Death Guard work like every other codex we've seen so far) including daemons in a detachment will mean that it is no longer a "Death Guard" detachment. Therefore Death Guard units in it won't get 18" rapid-fire and so on, and it won't unlock Death Guard stratagems.
This is exactly what people are arguing.
And to piggy back on this, while some people are saying that the point of including them in the Codex is for you to summon Daemons, this doesn't make any sense with a unit like Nurglings where a large part of their draw is to deploy them 9'' away from enemies at the beginning of the game. Opening yourself up for a decent screen or a turn 1 charge which DG lacks right now.
Dionysodorus wrote: Yes, you can include the daemons in a detachment with Death Guard units. You can even have a detachment with Death Guard and daemons and then a detachment of Ultramarines and still be battleforged -- this is not very restrictive.
Actually, you can't do that.
A Battleforged army has all detachments sharing a keyword. Ultramarines have exactly ZERO keywords in common, even if you go for the broader faction ones.
Might not be wise to give advice that is blatantly wrong.
Well, as long as at least one detachment is pure DG in your army, the only downside to having a mixed detachment is you lose the CT for that specific detachment. Even stratagems merely require a pure DG detachment in the army, but can then be used on any qualifying unit, even those in other detachments.
Considering our CT has little to no utility for a lot of our army, you can easily include a mixed detachment if you are careful about how you divide it. I mean, HQs don't care because it offers little benefit, our tanks and daemon engines don't care because they don't get CT. Even deathshroud barely care.
Our CT is honestly there to boost basically 3-4 units, cultists (a little), ranged PM (a lot), ranged helbrutes (a lot), and ranged blightlord terminators (depends).
Dionysodorus wrote: Yes, you can include the daemons in a detachment with Death Guard units. You can even have a detachment with Death Guard and daemons and then a detachment of Ultramarines and still be battleforged -- this is not very restrictive.
Actually, you can't do that.
A Battleforged army has all detachments sharing a keyword. Ultramarines have exactly ZERO keywords in common, even if you go for the broader faction ones.
Might not be wise to give advice that is blatantly wrong.
Yes, this might not be wise, but I think I'm safe. Battle-forged armies are simply ones which are composed of detachments, and "some Detachments require all units included in it to be from the same Faction". In fact this restriction applies to all detachments that can consist of multiple units except for the Fortification Network.
You may be thinking of the rule on p214 that "All of the units in a matched play army... must have at least one Faction keyword in common". This is a separate rule and has nothing to do with being Battle-forged.
And to piggy back on this, while some people are saying that the point of including them in the Codex is for you to summon Daemons, this doesn't make any sense with a unit like Nurglings where a large part of their draw is to deploy them 9'' away from enemies at the beginning of the game. Opening yourself up for a decent screen or a turn 1 charge which DG lacks right now.
Just because it isn't the most optimal use of the unit doesn't mean it will have a more favourable faction. Daemons are there for reference. You can absolutely use them as a separate detachment and choose them as normal if you want, but the main reason for their inclusion is to avoid players having to buy two books to use the Daemonic Ritual ability.
And to piggy back on this, while some people are saying that the point of including them in the Codex is for you to summon Daemons, this doesn't make any sense with a unit like Nurglings where a large part of their draw is to deploy them 9'' away from enemies at the beginning of the game. Opening yourself up for a decent screen or a turn 1 charge which DG lacks right now.
Just because it isn't the most optimal use of the unit doesn't mean it will have a more favourable faction. Daemons are there for reference. You can absolutely use them as a separate detachment and choose them as normal if you want, but the main reason for their inclusion is to avoid players having to buy two books to use the Daemonic Ritual ability.
This is actually a great argument in favor of them being able to fit inside the detachment with no penalty. GW would never try and prevent us from having to buy two books!!
In all seriousness, I understand but I am just a little disappointed. I think there are a lot of great options in the codex so squeezing in Daemons isn't entirely necessary I just thought it would be fun. And if it's fun, it doesn't always have to be optimal! Thanks for discussing this with me!
I'll admit, if the legions worked Daemonkin-style then daemons would be more interesting to include. Summoning just isn't interesting in it's current setup though. I'd rather it went back to the pre-7th style of daemons just have deep strike to represent being summoned.
If the summoning comment is true, then it won't be particularly hard to get the Chapter Tactic benefit then. Just set aside the points for the Daemons and you're good to go. I can't imagine every character will be moving a lot, so that's not gonna be an issue.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If the summoning comment is true, then it won't be particularly hard to get the Chapter Tactic benefit then. Just set aside the points for the Daemons and you're good to go. I can't imagine every character will be moving a lot, so that's not gonna be an issue.
Yes, this is literally the reason they're included in the book.
Do we know for certain that nothing in the book allows the included daemons to be a part of the army without breaking the DG battleforged status? I'm just curious. Maybe somewhere in there there's an exception for the lesser nurgle daemons.
Here it comes the Meganobz pricepoint for 3 Deathshrouds? The FW ones are gonna be cheaper
And I'll buy them
I'll, uh, stretch the parts out, though. With only three guys rhere have to be tons of bits in there, right.
For the lack of DGness of Possessed, well, luckily my current ones are mostly exposed flesh. My explanation for myself will have the partial to complete lack of body parts where black carapace might be left and a weak connection to the Warp as a reason for them not to be that tough.
This a point where hopefully a lot of people complain and GW listens and erratas an upgrade option in for DEATH GUARD lords/sorcs/possessed as well as putting it into the World Eaters etc. books once those (probably) hit.
Here it comes the Meganobz pricepoint for 3 Deathshrouds? The FW ones are gonna be cheaper
And I'll buy them
Maybe GW feels kind to us and give them the agressor pricepoint at 40€ for 3. Even better, as they are gonna be smaller than the agressors, maybe even 35€ for 3! One can dream, no? (And yes, I'm gonna buy at least one box, but after I buy bloat drones, normal terminators and plague marines )
ImAGeek wrote: They're really dragging this release out.
Kharadron Overlords would like to have a word with you. They released the book and data cards and then a unit or two a week for 5-6 weeks. You literally couldn't play them effectively because they had such different looking units. At least this time around you can use existing models to proxy a bunch of things.
I don't think any other army in 40K or AoS has this diversity of sculpts and unique looking basic troops. (Yes even primaris marines are doubled up sprues of 5 in the troop boxes)
At the end of the day there will be at least 20 unique PM sculpts (7 from DI, 3 from easy build kit, 10 from MPP kit), 5 unique terminators, 3 unique "super terminators", 16 unique poxwalkers, 3 different blight drones, a new artillery tank, new demon engine tank, a host of 6-7 unique heroes, an iconic character in Typhus, and a demon primarch.
Really gets me excited for the future of the hobby.
The real killer for me is the fact my army has an existing aesthetic that consists mostly of the FW upgrade kits - so I'd have to see the sprues to see if the arms can be used seperate - in which case it might soon be time for a costly order to make a few units.
Hilariously I found a spare pre-Heresy Apothecary I had so I guess that Elite slot is filled for the time being once I paint him up.
But if the arms aren't really compatible with other things...
It might be a case of me ordering a Terminator Conversion set, some Tartarus Terminators and seeing if I can source the 30k Deathshroud arms seperately or if I should just fold and buy a squad of Deathshroud....
Galas wrote: Yep, I think this is the biggest "new faction" release in GW history. In number of unique kits/units
Which is bizzare because of how niche it is. It's like doing a Blood Angels or Iyanden release with a gigantic pile of model support rather than just giving them a few unique units.
Which is bizarre because of how niche it is. It's like doing a Blood Angels or Iyanden release with a gigantic pile of model support rather than just giving them a few unique units.
Certainly in the past DG were a lot more of a niche force, but I feel they've green-lit them in 8th to be then main antagonist and reinvented the faction. I think this is more akin to a new army/faction release than a re-hashing of an old one.
Having said that, I'm also on board with wanting to see this diversity in other lines, especially the xenos kits. For how popular Eldar are, you wouldn't know it from the model line of ancient plastics and resin aspect warriors.
She said expect new stuff for he tau but not tau empire if I recall. It's also been speculated that could mean farsight enclaves might get the DG treatment and become more unique.
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ImAGeek wrote: They're really dragging this release out.
SilverAlien wrote: She said expect new stuff for he tau but not tau empire if I recall. It's also been speculated that could mean farsight enclaves might get the DG treatment and become more unique.
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ImAGeek wrote: They're really dragging this release out.
I'm just happy we finally know what is coming.
If that's true about FSE I'll die happy. Finally a legit sub-faction. On the other hand awww no auxiliary. I'm so torn as to what I want.
1) Why can't a PM sergeant take a blight launcher? If you take 2 blight launchers on normal PMs then advance you are then your sergeant's plasma gun is useless (in addition to the bolters). This seems to force me to take all plasma guns in a unit to maximize synergy.
2) It sucks all the daemons in the book don't have the Death guard keyword allow you to be battle forged. I really wanted to have a truely mixed army. I hate the poxwalkers and would have loved to use Plaguebearers for example.
3) it suck the hellbrutes and other models all didn't get DR (with a points increase). It would have made things easier to remember and fluffy.
If you take Mortarian in your list as a LoW and Typhus does only one of them get to use their warlord trait? Is it one trait per army or one per formation?
If you take Mortarian in your list as a LoW and Typhus does only one of them get to use their warlord trait? Is it one trait per army or one per formation?
One per army. You can have multiple HQs or LoWs, but only one warlord
If you take Mortarian in your list as a LoW and Typhus does only one of them get to use their warlord trait? Is it one trait per army or one per formation?
One per army. You can have multiple HQs or LoWs, but only one warlord
Bummer really wanted to give my daemon prince +1 DR.
If you take Mortarian in your list as a LoW and Typhus does only one of them get to use their warlord trait? Is it one trait per army or one per formation?
One per army. You can have multiple HQs or LoWs, but only one warlord
Bummer really wanted to give my daemon prince +1 DR.
broxus wrote: I love this new book except for 3 things:
1) Why can't a PM sergeant take a blight launcher? If you take 2 blight launchers on normal PMs then advance you are then your sergeant's plasma gun is useless (in addition to the bolters). This seems to force me to take all plasma guns in a unit to maximize synergy.
2) It sucks all the daemons in the book don't have the Death guard keyword allow you to be battle forged. I really wanted to have a truely mixed army. I hate the poxwalkers and would have loved to use Plaguebearers for example.
3) it suck the hellbrutes and other models all didn't get DR (with a points increase). It would have made things easier to remember and fluffy.
1) just tool out the sergeant with some of the cool new melee weapons, blight laucher unit should be a melee one since they are advancing. Plasma sergeant with 2 plasmas is your shooty squad.
2) they all have nurgle keyword so they are battleforged. You just have to bring all the demons in a separate detachment, then all your deathguard in the other detachment and they still get the CT.
3) I agree with you there, would've been really cool.
If you take Mortarian in your list as a LoW and Typhus does only one of them get to use their warlord trait? Is it one trait per army or one per formation?
One per army. You can have multiple HQs or LoWs, but only one warlord
Bummer really wanted to give my daemon prince +1 DR.
Mortarian's ability is pretty good. Not sure if giving one Deamon Prince is worth giving a +1 DR over a 14" buff.
1) just tool out the sergeant with some of the cool new melee weapons, blight laucher unit should be a melee one since they are advancing. Plasma sergeant with 2 plasmas is your shooty squad.
2) they all have nurgle keyword so they are battleforged. You just have to bring all the demons in a separate detachment, then all your deathguard in the other detachment and they still get the CT.
3) I agree with you there, would've been really cool.
I may be completely wrong here, but if models are in different detachments, they don't need to share any keywords.
As long as they share a keyword with the other models in their own detachment that is enough.
1) just tool out the sergeant with some of the cool new melee weapons, blight laucher unit should be a melee one since they are advancing. Plasma sergeant with 2 plasmas is your shooty squad.
2) they all have nurgle keyword so they are battleforged. You just have to bring all the demons in a separate detachment, then all your deathguard in the other detachment and they still get the CT.
3) I agree with you there, would've been really cool.
I may be completely wrong here, but if models are in different detachments, they don't need to share any keywords.
As long as they share a keyword with the other models in their own detachment that is enough.
I think that is right.
To be a battleforged army, everything needs to have one keyword in common.
To get the CT, everything in the detachment needs to have the same keyword for the ability (ie. deathguard or ultramarines, etc) but only units in that detachment gain the ability. If you brought a 2nd detachment of nurgle demons lead by a Lord of Contagion, that Lord of contagion would not gain "inexorable advance" even though he is deathguard because the detachment he's from is not all deathguard. The original detachment of all deathguard would though.
1) just tool out the sergeant with some of the cool new melee weapons, blight laucher unit should be a melee one since they are advancing. Plasma sergeant with 2 plasmas is your shooty squad.
2) they all have nurgle keyword so they are battleforged. You just have to bring all the demons in a separate detachment, then all your deathguard in the other detachment and they still get the CT.
3) I agree with you there, would've been really cool.
I may be completely wrong here, but if models are in different detachments, they don't need to share any keywords. As long as they share a keyword with the other models in their own detachment that is enough.
I think that is right.
To be a battleforged army, everything needs to have one keyword in common
No. Battle-forged only requires that all units in a detachment have a keyword in common. It's the Matched Play rules found on page 214 under the heading 'Army Faction' which requires all of the units in the army to have a Faction keyword in common. This is NOT the Battle-forged rule found on page 240 of the main rulebook.
1) just tool out the sergeant with some of the cool new melee weapons, blight laucher unit should be a melee one since they are advancing. Plasma sergeant with 2 plasmas is your shooty squad.
2) they all have nurgle keyword so they are battleforged. You just have to bring all the demons in a separate detachment, then all your deathguard in the other detachment and they still get the CT.
3) I agree with you there, would've been really cool.
I may be completely wrong here, but if models are in different detachments, they don't need to share any keywords.
As long as they share a keyword with the other models in their own detachment that is enough.
I think that is right.
To be a battleforged army, everything needs to have one keyword in common
No. Battle-forged only requires that all units in a detachment have a keyword in common. It's the Matched Play rules found on page 214 under the heading 'Army Faction' which requires all of the units in the army to have a Faction keyword in common. This is NOT the Battle-forged rule found on page 240 of the main rulebook.
Nurgle and Chaos are faction keywords. I don't understand what your point is or why you said "no". My above example of a deathguard detachment and a nurgle detachment is battle forged and matched play legal as they share the same faction keywords.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you wanted to get really messy, you could have a lord of contagion as hq, knorne berserkers and thousand sons as elites, demonettes as troops and a renegade knight as a lord of war all in the same detachment because they have the chaos faction keyword in common even though you're pulling troops from 2 codecies and an index.
And that's still battle forged and match play legal.
I hope the sculptor who leaked Mortarion nearly a year ago or something didn't lose his job lol. Regardless of the leak he's got enough talent to deserve working on these models if you ask me. This is gonna be a very drawn out release...but the models are awesome so whatever.
Thargrim wrote: I hope the sculptor who leaked Mortarion nearly a year ago or something didn't lose his job lol. Regardless of the leak he's got enough talent to deserve working on these models if you ask me. This is gonna be a very drawn out release...but the models are awesome so whatever.
This is a really huge release. Other Codexes are being released that have nothing to do with Death Guard, but I think this is just a testament to how popular Death Guard is as a faction. Plague Marines have always been strong in the game. Even being expensive or slow, they've always been extra tough troops that are hard to budge off of an objective. Besides their rules, they're a popular army to convert, and I've seen many Chaos Marine player go to Nurgle just for the opportunity to bust out more Green Stuff.
My hope is that we can expect more grand releases like this in the future for factions that really need it. It's a double-edged sword, since factions that don't get big shiny new toys end up feeling like they've been ignored. I feel for AdMech players that were hoping for SOMETHING to go along with their Codex, and got nothing.
Here's hoping that GW keeps it up and gives us plenty more fun toys that... maybe aren't Space Marines?
These models look very monopose, not a fan if thats the case. I think GW is going too far with he goofy side of Nurgle, its adding too much levity to an absolutely terrifying force.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: These models look very monopose, not a fan if thats the case. I think GW is going too far with he goofy side of Nurgle, its adding too much levity to an absolutely terrifying force.
I thought they looked quite badass personally. The only things that are somewhat goofy are the pox walkers, but that's quite scary if you think about it. These masses of maggots and writhing tentacles slowly shuffling towards you with these big toothy grins on their faces through scowling eyes, wanting to infect you.
And obviously the Nurglings are goofy, but that's the charm of those little guys.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: These models look very monopose, not a fan if thats the case. I think GW is going too far with he goofy side of Nurgle, its adding too much levity to an absolutely terrifying force.
I thought they looked quite badass personally. The only things that are somewhat goofy are the pox walkers, but that's quite scary if you think about it. These masses of maggots and writhing tentacles slowly shuffling towards you with these big toothy grins on their faces through scowling eyes, wanting to infect you.
And obviously the Nurglings are goofy, but that's the charm of those little guys.
The models are indeed gorgeous, however they just dont fit the aesthetic i personally desire when i think of the Death Guard.
Anyone have any clue what he made his Raptor heads from?
I think he sculpted the lense parts himself. He posts as Morbak on blog de Kouzes. There is some awesome stuff there including lots of wip and a bit of stuff about his design process. It is all in French though so a bit of Google translation is necessary.
The Biologus Putrifier is one of the Grenade caddies we have seen some pictures of. His ability grants a +1 to the Strength and Damage characteristic of the Blight Grenades. He also lets Grenades do a Mortal wound on a 6+. With a Stratagem you can have the entire unit throw Blight Grenades as well and when you mix it with Veterans of the Long War they all of a sudden each get 1d6 hits that have a chance to do mortal wounds on a 5 or 6. Sure it is 6 Inches but that is something to really worry about when you try to charge in and face a plethora of Grenades coming at your face.[u]
We are crazy? 20d6 hits, that at 5+ to wound are mortals?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Only with a stratagem, so you have to pay a rare resource to use it.
But it's only 1CP.
Oof, that is pretty cheap, if that's true. Still, it has really short range, so it should be avoidable. The way I see it, it does hurt, but it needs a resource and does have a clear limitation, so its not really OP.
Not to mention that if you want 20d6 shots you will need 20 models in the squad. That's a pretty heavy investment just to effectively use a stratagem.
Without the stratagem its crazy too (better use the stratagem cloud of files in this unit of 20 plague marines). With a chaos lord you can rerolls 1s to hit and with the warlord trait you can reroll to wound with plague weapons (and granades are XD)
So for each 6s (rerollable) to wound you do 2 mortal wounds? (the hero gives damage 2)
Without the stratagem you can only throw one grenade. That's not very scary. You might as well break up that 20 man squad into 4 squads to get 4 grenade throws. But then the stratagem wouldn't be that effective.
Its strong, but hardly crazy. It still relies heavily on RNG.
Damage is not the same as mortal wounds. Mortal wound is a bonus effect in addition to damage. So each roll of a 6 deals 1 mortal wound + 2 normal wounds from the damage buff
Automatically Appended Next Post: then again, probably not...
Oh hello! Never seen these before. I'm reluctant to buy non-GW models since I play in a GW store semi-regularly, but I like those a lot for autogun cultists...
It only gives cover if every model in the unit is within 7", so you'll want small squads to benefit from it. I can see it synergizing really well with Terminator squads.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It only gives cover if every model in the unit is within 7", so you'll want small squads to benefit from it. I can see it synergizing really well with Terminator squads.
Right, but wholly within 7" of a unit of 3 Haulers seems like you could potentially fit in quite a bit.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It only gives cover if every model in the unit is within 7", so you'll want small squads to benefit from it. I can see it synergizing really well with Terminator squads.
AutocannonSidearm wrote: All about that cover save. It would be nice if you could remove the missile launcher and multi-melta (that's a job for a 3+ BS hellbrute, instead!)
Yes and no. I made the argument on Facebook in favor of the little guys.
Hellbrutes don't provide a Cover Aura and requires a Death Guard only Detachment to benefit from ignoring heavy weapons. Oh, and has only 2 weapons right? Hellbrutes have a place but as Lascannon platforms or gribblys tarpit when in Hentai mode. Oh and doesn't get a 5+ invul I believe or Disgustingly Resilient
Good god I hope helbrutes got a point reduction. At 140ish points that hauler is faster and better at getting a multi-melta in range and far more durable.
This thing has no downside other than perhaps you'll need three.
AutocannonSidearm wrote: All about that cover save. It would be nice if you could remove the missile launcher and multi-melta (that's a job for a 3+ BS hellbrute, instead!)
Yes and no. I made the argument on Facebook in favor of the little guys.
Hellbrutes don't provide a Cover Aura and requires a Death Guard only Detachment to benefit from ignoring heavy weapons. Oh, and has only 2 weapons right? Hellbrutes have a place but as Lascannon platforms or gribblys tarpit when in Hentai mode. Oh and doesn't get a 5+ invul I believe or Disgustingly Resilient
Yup. Thats why i've just gone all in, ditched the hellbrute and taken an contemptor. These Drones are going to be brilliant. if we have some carry over from the CSM stratagems and get "Daemon forged" re rolling all hits and wounds. Yes please.
Rush a unit of these forward 10" and then deepstrike your termies in less than 7" from them. That gets you 16" from your deployment zone. Or advance them and you get 11" to 16"s
AutocannonSidearm wrote: All about that cover save. It would be nice if you could remove the missile launcher and multi-melta (that's a job for a 3+ BS hellbrute, instead!)
These get 3+ BS. You need 3, but the other abilities it has seem worth it.
I know a lot of people are salty about the art direction of the new DG, but between the marines, drones, and this new hauler, god am I in love with where they are taking the style.
There's really no reason you couldn't just use the old Death Guard models if you don't like the new ones. The chaos index shows both versions of plague marines in it after all.
Sure it would suck that you don't get as many NEW things to put on the table, but there's nothing stopping you from using existing models.
AutocannonSidearm wrote: All about that cover save. It would be nice if you could remove the missile launcher and multi-melta (that's a job for a 3+ BS hellbrute, instead!)
Yes and no. I made the argument on Facebook in favor of the little guys.
Hellbrutes don't provide a Cover Aura and requires a Death Guard only Detachment to benefit from ignoring heavy weapons. Oh, and has only 2 weapons right? Hellbrutes have a place but as Lascannon platforms or gribblys tarpit when in Hentai mode. Oh and doesn't get a 5+ invul I believe or Disgustingly Resilient
Yup. Thats why i've just gone all in, ditched the hellbrute and taken an contemptor. These Drones are going to be brilliant. if we have some carry over from the CSM stratagems and get "Daemon forged" re rolling all hits and wounds. Yes please.
Remember, a group of nurglings likely drive these happy little DGBugs
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darthryan wrote: Dont forget a deamon herald will buff the strength by +1 as well and he can heal them with his powers as they are nurgle deamons
They are also Daemon so you can use the Nurgle Demon psychic powers to heal it.
By the way, the prices for the Deathshroud Terminators have leaked. 35 pounds for 3 characters.
So 45€ like Intercessors. The FW ones at 49 pounds are much better! They are 50% cheaper in euros a piece, from 10 for the FW ones to 15 for the GW ones.
Well, I suppose I'll buy them from Element Games then, with discount and the exchange rate they come down too to 10€ for Terminator.
AutocannonSidearm wrote: All about that cover save. It would be nice if you could remove the missile launcher and multi-melta (that's a job for a 3+ BS hellbrute, instead!)
Yes and no. I made the argument on Facebook in favor of the little guys.
Hellbrutes don't provide a Cover Aura and requires a Death Guard only Detachment to benefit from ignoring heavy weapons. Oh, and has only 2 weapons right? Hellbrutes have a place but as Lascannon platforms or gribblys tarpit when in Hentai mode. Oh and doesn't get a 5+ invul I believe or Disgustingly Resilient
Yup. Thats why i've just gone all in, ditched the hellbrute and taken an contemptor. These Drones are going to be brilliant. if we have some carry over from the CSM stratagems and get "Daemon forged" re rolling all hits and wounds. Yes please.
Remember, a group of nurglings likely drive these happy little DGBugs
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darthryan wrote: Dont forget a deamon herald will buff the strength by +1 as well and he can heal them with his powers as they are nurgle deamons
They are also Daemon so you can use the Nurgle Demon psychic powers to heal it.
I am so unbelievably into the Stank Tanks (credit to someone in the Death Guard group on FB). They are going to be so fun to paint, I am gonna need at least 6.
can this Myphitic Blight-Hauler thing be equipped with the "Fleshmower" like on the bloat drone?...because that would be kinda great...if only for looks
ZoBo wrote: can this Myphitic Blight-Hauler thing be equipped with the "Fleshmower" like on the bloat drone?...because that would be kinda great...if only for looks
The haulers have no options. But don't let stop you from adding a fleshmower to yours just for looks.
ZoBo wrote: can this Myphitic Blight-Hauler thing be equipped with the "Fleshmower" like on the bloat drone?...because that would be kinda great...if only for looks
I haven't seen what the fleshmower looks like. Where is it on the drone?
ZoBo wrote: can this Myphitic Blight-Hauler thing be equipped with the "Fleshmower" like on the bloat drone?...because that would be kinda great...if only for looks
I haven't seen what the fleshmower looks like. Where is it on the drone?
ZoBo wrote: can this Myphitic Blight-Hauler thing be equipped with the "Fleshmower" like on the bloat drone?...because that would be kinda great...if only for looks
I haven't seen what the fleshmower looks like. Where is it on the drone?
Thanks! Looks like DG have a Deffrolla now. Better not be better than the Deffrolla. I'll keel someone.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So, are lightning claws allowed on any of the DG terminators? What about combi plasma?
Also, why in the hell did tartauros Death Shroud Terminators suddenly turn into cataphractii? It's really throwing my whole collection out of whack.
I don't think anyone is gonna complain about that. Personally, I think Cathapractii is more fitting for the "Slowest and sturdiest legion" thematic of DG, than the Terminator Armour known for being much more flexible and ligther than the others.
They work out about £2 more expensive per model, with presumably much more in terms of options and the ability to buy from a retailer for a discount and/or not pay ridiculous shipping from FW. If you're okay with the price of the FW ones, it's not much of a stretch.
They work out about £2 more expensive per model, with presumably much more in terms of options and the ability to buy from a retailer for a discount and/or not pay ridiculous shipping from FW. If you're okay with the price of the FW ones, it's not much of a stretch.
More importantly, for me at least, is the sweet, sweet, polystyrene. I hate working with resin and hate super glue even more.
The Deathshroud look great! But is that all the DG being released that week... really? I mean, if it was a dual kit, great, that's two units, but, it doesn't look to be.
Glad to see that admech codex out, I just don't want this to be such a slow... trickle... DG... release... schedule.
If this is meant to mimic the slow, ponderous nature of Nurgle's legions... very cute GW. But the entire Emperor's children release better happen in ONE WEEK!
skullking wrote: The Deathshroud look great! But is that all the DG being released that week... really? I mean, if it was a dual kit, great, that's two units, but, it doesn't look to be.
Glad to see that admech codex out, I just don't want this to be such a slow... trickle... DG... release... schedule.
If this is meant to mimic the slow, ponderous nature of Nurgle's legions... very cute GW. But the entire Emperor's children release better happen in ONE WEEK!
AutocannonSidearm wrote: All about that cover save. It would be nice if you could remove the missile launcher and multi-melta (that's a job for a 3+ BS hellbrute, instead!)
The blight-haulers are 3+ when there are three of them in a unit.
AutocannonSidearm wrote: All about that cover save. It would be nice if you could remove the missile launcher and multi-melta (that's a job for a 3+ BS hellbrute, instead!)
The blight-haulers are 3+ when there are three of them in a unit.
Arachnofiend wrote: Erm, I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't come with 3 in a box.
Really>? I would not be at all.
I am a not GW basher, but I doubt they would package a squadron together at a fair price, when they sell them as 1 for more profit.
It depends on how big they really are. Do we know if the Bloat Drone will be one per box? They seem pretty similar in size, but the Bloat Drone box will include a bunch of weapon and carapace options. Stank Tanks could be more like a Centurion box of three, since they have no weapon options. Maybe they will at least have some carapace options so they aren't all identical?
Galas wrote: How are the Nurgle Drones (The giant flys) compared in size with the Bloat Drones? The daemonic flys come in a 3-pack
They take up a similar amount of space in a minis bag because of the fly wings, but they are definitely less plastic. There's a couple optional parts for the Nurgle Drones, but I would imagine one Bloat Drone sprue with all the options will be similar to the sprues for 3x Plague Drones (flies).
£35 is the same as the 1KSons Sorcerer 3 pack. I don't see why this is an issue (other than that being an insane price in the first place, but that's a given).
I think the price for Deathshrouds is fair. I mean, I doubt you're going to be fielding that many units of them. They're only 1-3 in a unit, they're slow and CC-focused. They're great for character meatshields, but at 75 ppm, how many of these are you planning on running?
puma713 wrote: I think the price for Deathshrouds is fair. I mean, I doubt you're going to be fielding that many units of them. They're only 1-3 in a unit, they're slow and CC-focused. They're great for character meatshields, but at 75 ppm, how many of these are you planning on running?
Unit size 3-6 but your point still stands.
Also they're 75 points per model so I doubt fielding any more than 6 of them will be competitively viable, although I'd love to be wrong on that.
puma713 wrote: I think the price for Deathshrouds is fair. I mean, I doubt you're going to be fielding that many units of them. They're only 1-3 in a unit, they're slow and CC-focused. They're great for character meatshields, but at 75 ppm, how many of these are you planning on running?
Unit size 3-6 but your point still stands.
Also they're 75 points per model so I doubt fielding any more than 6 of them will be competitively viable, although I'd love to be wrong on that.
Really? The Miniwargaming review said they were 3 to a unit.
Edit: Listened again and you're right - you can include an additional 3. Still, I'd only include 3 I think.
Tell me again why Death Guard shouldn't have jump troops? My only Raptor so far is rocking a very similiar jump pack with two fans, too.
The Blight-hauler looks a bit like one of those prehistoric crabs, doesn't it? I'll have to see a 360 to decide if I like it though. The rules would work very well for a daemonified Salamander scout tank or a scratch built WW1 light tank, hmh. Playing BF1 males me way too eager to buy even more DG stuff.
Edit: Gak, this post was in transit a few hours it seems, it should have been posted right after the pic of Maxime's jump troopers
So - In the Codex apparently in the Daemon Prince profile it says there is an option for the Prince to take wings for 1 PL.
But there is no entry for Daemon Prince with Wings listed under the points section of the codex.
So, did GW forget to include the points? Is the wing upgrade free?
Or, did the Prince lose the ability to bring wings and they forgot to take it out of the profile?
I imagine we'll see an Errata get posted VERY fast just like the other codexes (day or two). But I'm pretty worried they'll just come out and say Prince doesn't get to take wings.
AutocannonSidearm wrote: All about that cover save. It would be nice if you could remove the missile launcher and multi-melta (that's a job for a 3+ BS hellbrute, instead!)
These get 3+ BS. You need 3, but the other abilities it has seem worth it.
AutocannonSidearm wrote: All about that cover save. It would be nice if you could remove the missile launcher and multi-melta (that's a job for a 3+ BS hellbrute, instead!)
These get 3+ BS. You need 3, but the other abilities it has seem worth it.
That one unhelmeted head in particular 
