H.B.M.C. wrote: Assuming those prices is mightily optimistic.
Which just would make box even better deal...
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Elbows wrote: $230 is an absolute laugh, considering there are four small units in that box that people actually want. If these were all new models, or it came with the hard cover book in the box or something it would still be more than most people are going to plunk down for a single box....but a handful of new models with two kits which are literally 20+ years old...and you want to ask $230? That's incredible.
Sadly it'll likely mean sales will not be huge, and GW will think "Huh, guess people won't want plastic Aspects..."
Nah these are not for people with existing eldar armies that need no additions except for the new kits. This follows 100% pattern of previous discount boxes that have sold out. And so will this. And then ~6 months later the solo boxes come out for those old gognards who get to buy then without discount.
It's win-win for GW. Get to sell out first these boxes that are higher profit margin, then get the solo boxes sold later
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Dread Master wrote: 230.00 USD??? Wow..... Was considering this as a gift for one of my buddies. Nope.
I dread the prices of the aspect Warriors when released separately.
Gw has a long history of doing these boxes at about a 50% discount. Even if we assume the highest possible prices for the new kits we are looking at a $370 value in the US at a 35% discount. It is about $50 too much. I hope we don't have to wait too long for the individual kits. It also makes me worried about the price of the sisters box.
Hmm 230 US$ seems far fetched, but 230AUS$ sounds about right putting the box at about 120 quid. I looked back into the thread for the price leak, but I guess I'm really poor at it and couldn't find it...
I've found uses for prisms, falcons and serpents.
Prisms for long range, static firepower and backfield camping. They're very good units
Serpents for transport and midfield harassment, I usually put vectored engines on them so they also get a move penalty for shooting and once that shield is popped it's not really any tougher than a falcon. With shuriken their damage against anything tougher than guard is pretty underwhelming.
They're excellent transports but not very good tanks.
Falcons with star canon and CTM can engage with more heavily armoured targets like marines a lot better than a serpent. They grab objectives and harass units a lot better than prisms. They're also great for sniping out exposed characters.
They're very good units, they may not be specialists but sometimes flexibility is its own strength.
It is following exact same pattern GW has been doing for years. New kit or two(this actually is breaking the pattern a bit with FOUR new kits), then bunch of old kits to get decent discount without hurting individual kit sales while giving better profit margin for GW(as the extra sprues themselves are free).
This was 90% forseeable release.(only ??? was exact what old units would be in there but even there not that many options. Old kit, can't be selling too well on it's own)
kingheff wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the falcon is a very good unit. 137 PTS for a flying tank with twelve wounds and basically a triple las cannon that can carry a small squad of infantry is great value. If you want a dedicated transport go for the serpent, it's damage output is pretty poor, it's more expensive but it's tougher and has double the capacity.
A single falcon out damages a fire prism for 20pts less. With the strat prisms shine but only in groups of three.
I do wonder if the people who write it off have ever tried actually using one.
A single Falcon only out damages a Prism if the Prism moves. Shooting against a target with T8 the Prism wins without moving. Makes the box even worse.
Against t7 3+ the falcon wins on average, on t8 3+ the prism wins on average, both assuming the prism double shoots.
Considering the falcon is cheaper, can carry a small squad and works best in a midfield role means it's a perfectly good vehicle that fulfills a different role. And it's certainly not the worst unit in the codex as some hyperbolic person said.
Sorry, but your maths is wrong. Average on D3 is 2 giving the Prism twice the number of shots over the Falcon. Both hit on 3+ and both wound on 3+ against the t7 but the Falcon allows a save where as the Prism does not.
Twice the number of shots allowing no save but only doing 1 less damage? The Prism wins both average and max damage.
Its a good discount for the boxed set when you look at the total price of the models within but I just can't see many people spending over $200 on one GW purchase.
I mean CWE get 8 models. 8 models is not many. 2 of those 8 every CWE player already owns. Shadowspear was $175 and had around 20 models per faction, all new.
Perhaps they're including Phoenix Rising in the box too? Otherwise I can't see this boxed set doing too well.
Tyranid Horde wrote: None of the kits in this set are particularly bad, they're just not played because there are stellar units in each respective codex.
I'm quite happy to add a third falcon to my Eldar and my first Vyper to my army.
This box is probably an auto-buy for me.
Falcon is probably the worst unit in the Eldar book...so yes it is particularly bad :p Both models have been around since like 1996 or something so I wonder why its an auto-buy now. They really should have done jet bikes + wave serpent if they wanted to sell these... instead of 2 of the oldest units.
I think you ought to go and read the codex again, it's far from the worst (or shall I list them?). Plus, as someone who owns eight of the falcon chassis, they've held up pretty well against time. And if you really want to stretch the box, you can convert the falcon into a wave serpent, there is about half a dozen extra pieces of difference.
The box is an auto-buy for the reasons I've already mentioned, nice try.
kingheff wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the falcon is a very good unit. 137 PTS for a flying tank with twelve wounds and basically a triple las cannon that can carry a small squad of infantry is great value. If you want a dedicated transport go for the serpent, it's damage output is pretty poor, it's more expensive but it's tougher and has double the capacity.
A single falcon out damages a fire prism for 20pts less. With the strat prisms shine but only in groups of three.
I do wonder if the people who write it off have ever tried actually using one.
A single Falcon only out damages a Prism if the Prism moves. Shooting against a target with T8 the Prism wins without moving. Makes the box even worse.
Against t7 3+ the falcon wins on average, on t8 3+ the prism wins on average, both assuming the prism double shoots.
Considering the falcon is cheaper, can carry a small squad and works best in a midfield role means it's a perfectly good vehicle that fulfills a different role. And it's certainly not the worst unit in the codex as some hyperbolic person said.
Sorry, but your maths is wrong. Average on D3 is 2 giving the Prism twice the number of shots over the Falcon. Both hit on 3+ and both wound on 3+ against the t7 but the Falcon allows a save where as the Prism does not.
Twice the number of shots allowing no save but only doing 1 less damage? The Prism wins both average and max damage.
I assume you didn't include a bright Lance? I get 3.5 wounds with the prism and 3.7 for the falcon with that load out.
With the bright lance and CTM it's still 12 PTS cheaper than the prism too plus it may get to fire the catapults too for a bit of anti screen.
Unfortunately it's to be expected, probably puts the kybosh on any more aspects getting updated soon too. :(
Hopefully the rules will make the older models better.
kingheff wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the falcon is a very good unit. 137 PTS for a flying tank with twelve wounds and basically a triple las cannon that can carry a small squad of infantry is great value. If you want a dedicated transport go for the serpent, it's damage output is pretty poor, it's more expensive but it's tougher and has double the capacity.
A single falcon out damages a fire prism for 20pts less. With the strat prisms shine but only in groups of three.
I do wonder if the people who write it off have ever tried actually using one.
A single Falcon only out damages a Prism if the Prism moves. Shooting against a target with T8 the Prism wins without moving. Makes the box even worse.
Against t7 3+ the falcon wins on average, on t8 3+ the prism wins on average, both assuming the prism double shoots.
Considering the falcon is cheaper, can carry a small squad and works best in a midfield role means it's a perfectly good vehicle that fulfills a different role. And it's certainly not the worst unit in the codex as some hyperbolic person said.
Sorry, but your maths is wrong. Average on D3 is 2 giving the Prism twice the number of shots over the Falcon. Both hit on 3+ and both wound on 3+ against the t7 but the Falcon allows a save where as the Prism does not.
Twice the number of shots allowing no save but only doing 1 less damage? The Prism wins both average and max damage.
I assume you didn't include a bright Lance? I get 3.5 wounds with the prism and 3.7 for the falcon with that load out.
With the bright lance and CTM it's still 12 PTS cheaper than the prism too plus it may get to fire the catapults too for a bit of anti screen.
Of course I didn't, because that's an option. Yes with that combination against that target it will out damage a Prism. Hardly a blanket statement that you made though.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Just checked our resident French leakerdude who has said that Banshees won't be out separately soon. Expected, but just wanted to provide the info.
somehow this doesn't suprise meespecially given how long it's taking GW to put outthe multipart infiltrator kit.
Urgh. So half the box is a faction I don't want to start, and the other half is mostly garbage units nobody plays. Falcons are rubbish, always have been, period.
Hard pass from me. Very disappointing and I doubt they will sell many at all. Sometimes wonder what they are thinking...
Of course - if they change the points/rules in the box and make all those units good...
they would have been better served putting in both new units, both new characters and a troops for each faction, so guardians and kabalites. Maybe splash in a raider and wave serpent because it thematically fits better and stick a £105 tag on it - it's essentially 2 start collecting boxes then and useful core units for both sides.
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zerosignal wrote: Urgh. So half the box is a faction I don't want to start, and the other half is mostly garbage units nobody plays. Falcons are rubbish, always have been, period.
Hard pass from me. Very disappointing and I doubt they will sell many at all. Sometimes wonder what they are thinking...
Of course - if they change the points/rules in the box and make all those units good...
but this is kinda a people problem, GW don't care if they're "good"
The funny thing is that GW just doesn't have a lot to put into the box from Craftworlds side to fit the concept, or what already wasn't in other boxes, because there isn't anything to put.
What other plastic infantry could they put there? Guardians? Those already were in a few boxes and they don't make much sense for Aspect-bowl. Wraithguard? Featured in 2 boxes. It would make sense for say Swooping Hawks face off Scourges, but here's a problem: there are NO plastic Hawks.
The Craftworlds line, specifically infantry, just doesn't have miniatures to create varied boxes out of them.
Wake the dead had two squads of troops and a serpent amongst other things.
I assume they don't want to keep putting out the same kits in each box. Although with the sorry state of our plastic kits they are quite limited.
Shadenuat wrote: The funny thing is that GW just doesn't have a lot to put into the box from Craftworlds side to fit the concept, or what already wasn't in other boxes, because there isn't anything to put.
What other plastic infantry could they put there? Guardians? Those already were in a few boxes and they don't make much sense for Aspect-bowl. Wraithguard? Featured in 2 boxes. It would make sense for say Swooping Hawks face off Scourges, but here's a problem: there are NO plastic Hawks.
The Craftworlds line, specifically infantry, just doesn't have miniatures to create varied boxes out of them.
No need to make new kit, give people 10 banshee + jain zar + watever viper/war walker/falco vs 10 incubi + drazhar + watever DE kit. And definitely not at 230US$.
Ofc but between making more money and making people happy, GW would choose the money.
That is not to mention they reduce their usual 2 sprues 5 man kit to their new 1.5 sprue kit, which cut down cost even more.
Shadenuat wrote: The funny thing is that GW just doesn't have a lot to put into the box from Craftworlds side to fit the concept, or what already wasn't in other boxes, because there isn't anything to put.
What other plastic infantry could they put there? Guardians? Those already were in a few boxes and they don't make much sense for Aspect-bowl. Wraithguard? Featured in 2 boxes. It would make sense for say Swooping Hawks face off Scourges, but here's a problem: there are NO plastic Hawks.
The Craftworlds line, specifically infantry, just doesn't have miniatures to create varied boxes out of them.
No need to make new kit, give people 10 banshee + jain zar + watever viper/war walker/falco vs 10 incubi + drazhar + watever DE kit. And definitely not at 230US$.
Ofc but between making more money and making people happy, GW would choose the money.
That is not to mention they reduce the usual 2 sprues 5 man kit to their new 1.5 sprue kit, which cut down cost even more.
This is exactly my opinion, 10x banshee and incubi, 1x Jain zar and Drazhar and 1x Wave Serpent and Raider.
Throw it with lower price and the box jumps from the *good to share with a friend* to I now haver a decent Vanguard Detachment there if i get another elite unit somewhere so i can keep the whole box.
Its not good value beacuse the units are not top-tier?
I know its a common trope of haters, but FFS GW do not actually prices stuff by their competitive rates.
There are, as Sahdenuat has noted, not THAT MANY plastic eldar kits, and eldar have gotten a LOT of boxs recently.
Wake the Dead was a mere year ago, with a spiritseer, a wave serpent, guardians and wraithguard.
Eldar was also one of the 2018 Christmas kits, with a farseer, guardians (again), dire avengers, windriders, vyper and a freaking wraithknight
Star collecting is also what, 2 years old? less? it has a farseer (again), wraithguard (again), and a wraithlord.
What plastic eldar are LEFT?
We already HAVE overlaps, and heck this new set will ALSO have an overlap-because there are no more plastic eldar.
Sure, they could put war walkers, but would that make anyone happy? they don't fit the theme, the kit is just as old and its honestly not ascetically appealing.
And the planes? these are WAY above the scale of such kits. you don't put a freaking plane is these kits, it would be like having tau VS admech and giving tau a riptide to face some admech infantry.
Like, jesus, take a chill pill.
Its a cute set. its not for everyone-nothing is for everyone.
Maybe some will split if with a friend, maybe they want to build both eldar and DE, maybe they want to get yannari-I don't know, I don't care.
Enough with the hate train people.
Seriously, some people on dakka make me wonder if they have any love for 40k in general or are they just here to hate on everything GW ever does.
No need to make new kit, give people 10 banshee + jain zar + watever viper/war walker/falco vs 10 incubi + drazhar + watever DE kit. And definitely not at 230US$.
Ofc but between making more money and making people happy, GW would choose the money.
That is not to mention they reduce their usual 2 sprues 5 man kit to their new 1.5 sprue kit, which cut down cost even more.
Even at £140 this would have been an insta-buy for me. Without a doubt.
I have always wanted Banshees in my hobby years (since about 2010/11) but never wanted to buy metal or finecrap. Promised myself I would not buy resin products from GW.
Now we are finally here where I get this play this legendary unit and we either shell out BIG time, or wait another 6 months to a year. Amazing.
BoomWolf wrote: Many of the complaints here are honestly idiotic.
As above.. they should have just made it 10 Incubi and 10 Banshees. Literally nobody would have complained about this and would be 10x more tempted to buy. Even ignoring the 20 year old kits in the box, 5 banshees are pointless. Especially when there is no proper way to expand the squad for another year.
shabbadoo wrote: Drazhar is decent, but not a Phoenix Lord. Okay, maybe there will be a comic called "Lil' Phoenix Lord," but he shouldn't be one. He's just a really skillled Incubi. Arha. Now there's Phoenix Lord, but he's fallen to Chaos
According to the Incubi he didn't fall, he was possessed but managed to hold the demon at bay from corrupting his spirit (although it controlled his body) and when he was killed by his disciples his soul escaped, pure, and inhabited those followers, so could have been reborn as other Phoenix Lords are. The other story is clearly Craftworld propaganda.
On behalf of the elder Eldar authors, let me offer you this token for a free tour of the Chambers of the Haemoculi. You will emerge a changed person - guaranteed!
As the Ynnari are a sort of bridge between the Aeldari and the Drukhari, it would be interesting to see a *real* Arha (and other more darkererer Aeldari) emerge on the other end of things, being a bridge between the Drukhari and Chaos. I probably wouldn't be able to resist the temptation...the lure...of buying such models.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Just checked our resident French leakerdude who has said that Banshees won't be out separately soon. Expected, but just wanted to provide the info.
somehow this doesn't suprise meespecially given how long it's taking GW to put outthe multipart infiltrator kit.
Which is really odd- seems like a deliberate slow down/restriction of releases ..[then again there seems to be a wider variety of releases with Warcry, bloodbowl etc..].
An Actual Englishman wrote: Just checked our resident French leakerdude who has said that Banshees won't be out separately soon. Expected, but just wanted to provide the info.
somehow this doesn't suprise meespecially given how long it's taking GW to put outthe multipart infiltrator kit.
Which is really odd- seems like a deliberate slow down/restriction of releases ..[then again there seems to be a wider variety of releases with Warcry, bloodbowl etc..].
Deliberate slow down with all the other new kits from boxed sets that comes about half a year later from boxed set? Poor marines. Having to wait for multipart kit like the rest of us mortals.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Just checked our resident French leakerdude who has said that Banshees won't be out separately soon. Expected, but just wanted to provide the info.
somehow this doesn't suprise meespecially given how long it's taking GW to put outthe multipart infiltrator kit.
Which is really odd- seems like a deliberate slow down/restriction of releases ..[then again there seems to be a wider variety of releases with Warcry, bloodbowl etc..].
Deliberate slow down with all the other new kits from boxed sets that comes about half a year later from boxed set? Poor marines. Having to wait for multipart kit like the rest of us mortals.
Wasn't really referring to marines but also stuff like the special characters in the AoS boxes like the Sylvaneth and FEC characters on top of these eldar releases- they would sell much more if they released them individually rather than as part fo a large pricey box. If they do the same for Nids I'll have to save for a box set rather than a few individual kits., You would have thought they would have rushed out their cash cow marine releases too rather than hold them back [I'm not a marine collector at all btw Tyranids and Eldar].
The 5 banshees/incubi really kill this box. Even if you have no use for the other units, you could always sell them (even at a large discount) to get some of your money back. Having to buy two boxes in order to field a full unit of each is probably too much to expect from the average customer.
For beginners, this box might be appealing, but I'd imagine they'd rather have full squads or at least the option of buying additional models for them.
BertBert wrote: The 5 banshees/incubi really kill this box. Even if you have no use for the other units, you could always sell them (even at a large discount) to get some of your money back. Having to buy two boxes in order to field a full unit of each is probably too much to expect from the average customer.
For beginners, this box might be appealing, but I'd imagine they'd rather have full squads or at least the option of buying additional models for them.
The 'full kit' when released will likely be a 10 man box for Incubi/Banshees. Infantry units that aren't Big Goons tend to be 10 model sets now, with these big discount boxes sometimes splitting the unit size down(Tooth and Claw gave you 5 Intercessors instead of 10, for example).
BertBert wrote: The 5 banshees/incubi really kill this box. Even if you have no use for the other units, you could always sell them (even at a large discount) to get some of your money back. Having to buy two boxes in order to field a full unit of each is probably too much to expect from the average customer.
For beginners, this box might be appealing, but I'd imagine they'd rather have full squads or at least the option of buying additional models for them.
The 'full kit' when released will likely be a 10 man box for Incubi/Banshees. Infantry units that aren't Big Goons tend to be 10 model sets now, with these big discount boxes sometimes splitting the unit size down(Tooth and Claw gave you 5 Intercessors instead of 10, for example).
Which then leaves you with 15 models, if you want a full sized squad after having already bought Phoenix Rising. Probably best to wait for the regular release.
BertBert wrote: The 5 banshees/incubi really kill this box. Even if you have no use for the other units, you could always sell them (even at a large discount) to get some of your money back. Having to buy two boxes in order to field a full unit of each is probably too much to expect from the average customer.
For beginners, this box might be appealing, but I'd imagine they'd rather have full squads or at least the option of buying additional models for them.
The 'full kit' when released will likely be a 10 man box for Incubi/Banshees. Infantry units that aren't Big Goons tend to be 10 model sets now, with these big discount boxes sometimes splitting the unit size down(Tooth and Claw gave you 5 Intercessors instead of 10, for example).
Which then leaves you with 15 models, if you want a full sized squad after having already bought Phoenix Rising. Probably best to wait for the regular release.
Oh no, you have a smaller unit and a bigger unit! WHATEVER SHALL YOU DO!
The 'full kit' when released will likely be a 10 man box for Incubi/Banshees. Infantry units that aren't Big Goons tend to be 10 model sets now, with these big discount boxes sometimes splitting the unit size down(Tooth and Claw gave you 5 Intercessors instead of 10, for example).
Harlequin, immortal, loota, burna etc etc etc. Oh and certain dire avenger box...
With options coming up 5 for 35$ or so isn't at all unlikely.
The 'full kit' when released will likely be a 10 man box for Incubi/Banshees. Infantry units that aren't Big Goons tend to be 10 model sets now, with these big discount boxes sometimes splitting the unit size down(Tooth and Claw gave you 5 Intercessors instead of 10, for example).
Harlequin, immortal, loota, burna etc etc etc. Oh and certain dire avenger box...
With options coming up 5 for 35$ or so isn't at all unlikely.
All older kits, the recent releases say otherwise!
Harlequin, immortal, loota, burna etc etc etc. Oh and certain dire avenger box...
With options coming up 5 for 35$ or so isn't at all unlikely.
The problem is what's the most recent set to do that?
Harlequins were, as far as I can tell, the last set to stay at that price point. There was "Combat Squads" for Intercessors, Reivers, and Helblasters but those were billed as "while stock lasts".
An Actual Englishman wrote: Just checked our resident French leakerdude who has said that Banshees won't be out separately soon. Expected, but just wanted to provide the info.
somehow this doesn't suprise meespecially given how long it's taking GW to put outthe multipart infiltrator kit.
Which is really odd- seems like a deliberate slow down/restriction of releases ..[then again there seems to be a wider variety of releases with Warcry, bloodbowl etc..].
Deliberate slow down with all the other new kits from boxed sets that comes about half a year later from boxed set? Poor marines. Having to wait for multipart kit like the rest of us mortals.
Wasn't really referring to marines but also stuff like the special characters in the AoS boxes like the Sylvaneth and FEC characters on top of these eldar releases- they would sell much more if they released them individually rather than as part fo a large pricey box. If they do the same for Nids I'll have to save for a box set rather than a few individual kits., You would have thought they would have rushed out their cash cow marine releases too rather than hold them back [I'm not a marine collector at all btw Tyranids and Eldar].
I would like to point at chosen and cultists, aswell as the deffkoptas of blackreach..........
The 'full kit' when released will likely be a 10 man box for Incubi/Banshees. Infantry units that aren't Big Goons tend to be 10 model sets now, with these big discount boxes sometimes splitting the unit size down(Tooth and Claw gave you 5 Intercessors instead of 10, for example).
Harlequin, immortal, loota, burna etc etc etc. Oh and certain dire avenger box...
With options coming up 5 for 35$ or so isn't at all unlikely.
All older kits, the recent releases say otherwise!
The Harlequin box isn't that old. But lets go with GSC Acolytes and Aberrants, just off the top of my head.
Oh no, you have a smaller unit and a bigger unit! WHATEVER SHALL YOU DO!
Considering that Banshees were, from 3rd onwards, never really that good, and completely useless in minimum sized squad, you have a bigger unit and 5 pieces of plastic trash.
Most times when you run Banshees now, you run them as MSU or just one unit of 5 to tie something up for a turn or two. Their overwatch denial is the only thing going for them right now.
I’d be very very surprised if they released the kits as 10-man kits in the future. For a troop choice, maybe, but, for elite choices that have squad sizes of 5-10, I can’t see them doing it.
I might be wrong, but, I fully expect for all the Aspect units and all other non-troop new releases to remain at min squad sized boxes, with the exception of Dark Reapers as they already come in a pack of 5, rather than 3. An example of this is the Aggressors I guess.
Harlequin, immortal, loota, burna etc etc etc. Oh and certain dire avenger box...
With options coming up 5 for 35$ or so isn't at all unlikely.
The problem is what's the most recent set to do that?
Harlequins were, as far as I can tell, the last set to stay at that price point. There was "Combat Squads" for Intercessors, Reivers, and Helblasters but those were billed as "while stock lasts".
GSC Acolytes are a nightmare purchase at 5 models. Alot of options, but it's the number of sprues that matter, not what you can make.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guys, it has nothing to do with battlefield role and everything to do with what size box they want them in and how many sprues fit into that box.
The pictures were already shown and it takes 3 sprues to make 5. Believing 10 guys is happening is a pipe dream.
Unless the Banshee Exarch can be built as a normal grunt then I doubt we'll see a 10 man box, unlike the Dire Avenger box where you can have 10 grunts.
Guys, it has nothing to do with battlefield role and everything to do with what size box they want them in and how many sprues fit into that box.
The pictures were already shown and it takes 3 sprues to make 5. Believing 10 guys is happening is a pipe dream.
This right here. Its clear as day that the sprue shown will be the sprue released seperate, and the sprue is 3 half sprue pieces, no way is this a 10 man box.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Unless the Banshee Exarch can be built as a normal grunt then I doubt we'll see a 10 man box, unlike the Dire Avenger box where you can have 10 grunts.
Both the Klaivex & the Exarch are optional builds
One of the models can be assembled as an Exarch
That being said I'd be shocked if it wasn't a 5 man box anyway
Howling Banshees, in particular, will benefit greatly from the chance to inflict additional Damage in this manner, as the -3 AP of their power swords means that they’ll likely cut straight through their target’s armour. All of a sudden, that solid line of 2-Wound Primaris Space Marines doesn’t look so intimidating!
Hahahahahahahahaha don't make me laugh GW!!
Banshees killing Primaris????
They forgetting that Primaris will kill more in return attacks??
Also how is Ghostwalk a speed boost?? When I think Ghostwalk I think Invoker from dota where he goes invisible.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
First thing that made me giggle too. Initial thought.....oh baby, those points in Chapter Approved are going to soar just like the plane! At least they will be deadly for the next 2 months.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
Splinter weapons don't have a strength value so will never benefit from it.
Test of Skill for Wych Cult Flyers could be an auto take, Dissies wounding Knights on 4's, Dark Scythes on 3's and Void Lances on 2's will be good, epsecially since a pure Drukhari list tends to struggle against such units.
First thing that made me giggle too. Initial thought.....oh baby, those points in Chapter Approved are going to soar just like the plane! At least they will be deadly for the next 2 months.
Have I missed something? That stratagem specifically says it's Once per Battle.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
Splinter weapons don't have a strength value so will never benefit from it.
Test of Skill for Wych Cult Flyers could be an auto take, Dissies wounding Knights on 4's, Dark Scythes on 3's and Void Lances on 2's will be good, epsecially since a pure Drukhari list tends to struggle against such units.
First thing that made me giggle too. Initial thought.....oh baby, those points in Chapter Approved are going to soar just like the plane! At least they will be deadly for the next 2 months.
Have I missed something? That stratagem specifically says it's Once per Battle.
They are giving Crimson Hunter Exarchs Exarch Powers.....which will make the already crazy good flier, even better.
I don't usually comment on these things, but as an Eldar and Dark Eldar player I think these new rules are terrible. Very powerful, very stupid, just poorly designed compared to previous stuff.
Any Craftworld unit can have +2 charge after deepstriking in with the Ghostwalk power? Can't wait for Skathatch Wraithknights and Shining Spears to be charging out of DS reliably. If they don't change Biel-tan's stratagem then Shining Spears can get a +4 to charge after DS.
Wych Cults with +1 to wound on all attacks against anything with 10+ wounds? Great now Raider Disintegrator Cannons can wound all vehicles with 10+ wounds on 4s. And that Tantalus....
Did GW not learn anything? I thought they at least learned to put "INFANTRY and BIKER" before the really OP psychic powers and abilities but I guess not.....
That's exactly why it is not limited, although limited by <Craftworld> tag. Because units like Wraithknights suck since you can't cast a lot of cool things on them. And so do Scorpions and somewhat WG who struggle with their 5" Move.
This power is perfect for many units which are too fragile or too slow to be put on the table.
Wych Cults with +1 to wound on all attacks against anything with 10+ wounds? Great now Raider Disintegrator Cannons can wound all vehicles with 10+ wounds on 4s. And that Tantalus....
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
Had to check but pretty much yes.
As it refers to models strength value, not weapons, it does indeed make Poisoned Weapons wound on 3+.
To be Quickened you have to start on the table, which is bad for Spears when playing with bad terrain, or against enemies with flyers who can see through even tall buildings, or someone with lots of indirect shooting. This is why they are still often taken as Biel-Tan and always were. Having a potential extra +2 on that, hell, even when not DSd, means you can move over enemy models with 2d6+4 charge.
After looking at the math the extra damage on a 6 to wound is actually really good.
It means Scorps AND Banshees should be doing about 10 damage~ with Doom. Which actually isn't that bad of a charge. Especailly for Banshees as theyre so quick.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
T4 or less, but yes.
When stood next to a haemonculus the venom is T6 as it gets +1 Toughness. And the rule compares Toughness values I think, not S v T. So for Wracks it'll be 3+ against anything T4 or lower if next to a Haemie. I could be confusing myself though.
THE_LIST_MASTER wrote: I don't usually comment on these things, but as an Eldar and Dark Eldar player I think these new rules are terrible. Very powerful, very stupid, just poorly designed compared to previous stuff.
Any Craftworld unit can have +2 charge after deepstriking in with the Ghostwalk power? Can't wait for Skathatch Wraithknights and Shining Spears to be charging out of DS reliably. If they don't change Biel-tan's stratagem then Shining Spears can get a +4 to charge after DS.
Wych Cults with +1 to wound on all attacks against anything with 10+ wounds? Great now Raider Disintegrator Cannons can wound all vehicles with 10+ wounds on 4s. And that Tantalus....
Did GW not learn anything? I thought they at least learned to put "INFANTRY and BIKER" before the really OP psychic powers and abilities but I guess not.....
Why is that bad compared to say Bloodletters getting a 3D6" charge or Infiltraitors ability to deny deep strike within 12". Anyone taking a Scathach isn't playig to win anyway.
That Tantalus is 400pts, and Drukhari in general struggle against high toughness units that have invulns or can be taken en mass. That it can't be used on Ravagers will limit it a little.
I completely forgot about Wych Cult flyers, can't wait for these Wych Cult Razorwing Airwings to join the Alaitoc flying circus. The +1 to wound ability is only HALF the Obession bonus too. They will need to nerf Craftworld flyers or Alaitoc really hard to prevent an even better flyer spam list from coming out of these silly rules.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
Splinter weapons don't have a strength value so will never benefit from it.
Test of Skill for Wych Cult Flyers could be an auto take, Dissies wounding Knights on 4's, Dark Scythes on 3's and Void Lances on 2's will be good, epsecially since a pure Drukhari list tends to struggle against such units.
I agree with Test of Skill, will make the planes very strong, shame that the Ravager can't be Cult.
I don't see why the strength of the splinter cannon matters, its a comparison between the toughness of the two models as far as I can tell.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
T4 or less, but yes.
When stood next to a haemonculus the venom is T6 as it gets +1 Toughness. And the rule compares Toughness values I think, not S v T. So for Wracks it'll be 3+ against anything T4 or lower if next to a Haemie. I could be confusing myself though.
It seems very weirdly worded, I'm hoping that it's a screw up from WarCom along with the mention that Torturers Craft is +1 to wound, as it's currently reroll all failed wounds (doubly so if they've changed it and kept it at 2CP).
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
T4 or less, but yes.
When stood next to a haemonculus the venom is T6 as it gets +1 Toughness. And the rule compares Toughness values I think, not S v T. So for Wracks it'll be 3+ against anything T4 or lower if next to a Haemie. I could be confusing myself though.
No, that's right, Venoms would wound anything T5 and under on a 3+.
Which is silly, but I don't think its game breaking.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
T4 or less, but yes.
When stood next to a haemonculus the venom is T6 as it gets +1 Toughness. And the rule compares Toughness values I think, not S v T. So for Wracks it'll be 3+ against anything T4 or lower if next to a Haemie. I could be confusing myself though.
No, that's right, Venoms would wound anything T5 and under on a 3+.
Which is silly, but I don't think its game breaking.
I think it depends what it can be paired with. If there is a way to get AP-1 on that it will be very strong. Also what if it's a T5 vehicle, like, say an enemy venom? Does it wound on 3s or 6s?
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
T4 or less, but yes.
When stood next to a haemonculus the venom is T6 as it gets +1 Toughness. And the rule compares Toughness values I think, not S v T. So for Wracks it'll be 3+ against anything T4 or lower if next to a Haemie. I could be confusing myself though.
No, that's right, Venoms would wound anything T5 and under on a 3+.
Which is silly, but I don't think its game breaking.
I think it depends what it can be paired with. If there is a way to get AP-1 on that it will be very strong. Also what if it's a T5 vehicle, like, say an enemy venom? Does it wound on 3s or 6s?
It would wound on 5s. It doesn't say that the rule overrides the 6+ to wound against vehicles, just it adds +1 to the wound roll.
So against a T5 vehicle that venom would effectively be wounding on 5+. Which is still silly, but I've seen them give marines stupider crap.
No, that's right, Venoms would wound anything T5 and under on a 3+.
Which is silly, but I don't think its game breaking.
Yeah. My bad. It's T5 and under.
But yeah, it's not game breaking, and they'd really need to be creative (or game breaking) with coven traits to beat +1 invul, Vexator Mask and Diabolical Soothsayer. So I doubt it'll come up much.
Presumably the coven part of those rules remain just wasted space, as all non-Prophets Coven rules have been thus far.
Shadenuat wrote: That's exactly why it is not limited, although limited by <Craftworld> tag. Because units like Wraithknights suck since you can't cast a lot of cool things on them. And so do Scorpions and somewhat WG who struggle with their 5" Move.
This power is perfect for many units which are too fragile or too slow to be put on the table.
Wych Cults with +1 to wound on all attacks against anything with 10+ wounds? Great now Raider Disintegrator Cannons can wound all vehicles with 10+ wounds on 4s. And that Tantalus....
Ravagers are <Kabal>.
But raiders, the two fliers and both FW heavies can be cult.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
T4 or less, but yes.
Next to a haemi they become toughness 6. That idiotic trait forgets to measure strength verse toughness, instead for some odd reason it measures the toughness of the attacker verse the toughness of the defender. I had to read it a couple times myself. Surely this will be FAQ'd within 2 weeks though.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
T4 or less, but yes.
Next to a haemi they become toughness 6. That idiotic trait forgets to measure strength verse toughness, instead for some odd reason it measures the toughness of the attacker verse the toughness of the defender. I had to read it a couple times myself. Surely this will be FAQ'd within 2 weeks though.
Oh yeah, that should probably be strength. It's probably working as intended though.
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Shadenuat wrote: I think it's Day 1 FAQ material really. Probably should be melee attacks.
That would make a lot more sense than splinter cannons suddenly becoming more poisonous because a venom is floating next to a haemonculous.
Honestly I think the -1 ap on all shuriken weapons is the craziest thing leaked. Mass shuriken fire was already solid, adding in the additional -1 and then you can jinx a target gets mental.
On a bright side, it does seem like they are standardizing Chapter Tactics to "you get two traits (or occasionally one very strong trait)."
I would be unsurprised to see The Cursed Blade and...the flying stuff kabal one... stay unchanged, as the are already two distinct traits, while Poisoned Tongue, the Craftworld Traits, and the two worse Coven traits might gain an extra bonus rule as did the basic marine CTs.
HOPEFULLY this new wych cult trait that is limited to stand on its own means they learned how much the Prophets of Flesh trait is a bad bad bad bad very bad idea, and that has been either changed or at the very least, not buffed.
Traitwise....honestly, they don't seem all that out of line especially compared to some of the gak marines now pull out of their power armored bumholes.
Shadenuat wrote: I think it's Day 1 FAQ material really. Probably should be melee attacks.
Probably which means it's trash. The only poisoned attacks in melee for coven are on wracks and haemis. No way anyone is trading Urien and a +1 to invuln for that.
I honestly only see the Test of skill combined with vehicles of all things to be the strong element. Damage 2 splinter weapons on a 6 to wound isn't awful either, but right now your looking at flayed skull or black heart to dethrone which is not an easy task IMO. I hope they didn't phone in the coven traits either like it appears because prophets of flesh currently has the best relic, WLT, strat and obsession which makes dethroning it daunting to begin with.
Red Corsair wrote: Honestly I think the -1 ap on all shuriken weapons is the craziest thing leaked. Mass shuriken fire was already solid, adding in the additional -1 and then you can jinx a target gets mental.
Its 12" range though. Necrons have a similar trait, and its not that effective on them because of how risky it is. In most cases you have to be within 12" in order to use it, and that makes getting shot a few times. And necrons are much tougher than Eldar.
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Shadenuat wrote: Within "12. It's for people who like playing their elves the hard way.
To be fair, shuriken catapults are already 12" range. It guess it's GW's way of buffing guardians...instead of just making them 24" range like nearly every other small arms weapon in the game. Or even just 18" and give Dire Avengers 24" range.
Well it also buffs Avengers, Spears, any vehicles with TSC, pistols (including shooting into melee), shuriken cannons, even makes you want to try TSC Windriders.
And yes, of course it does great for Guardian blobs.
I honestly only see the Test of skill combined with vehicles of all things to be the strong element
Red Corsair wrote: Honestly I think the -1 ap on all shuriken weapons is the craziest thing leaked. Mass shuriken fire was already solid, adding in the additional -1 and then you can jinx a target gets mental.
Its 12" range though.
Necrons have a similar trait, and its not that effective on them because of how risky it is. In most cases you have to be within 12" in order to use it, and that makes getting shot a few times. And necrons are much tougher than Eldar.
Guardians only have 12" to begin with. And Guardian-bombs are decent. Shining Spears are only 12" as well, as are Conclave bikes, etc..
For most of those, it will be decent.
Admittedly, none of that is top of the meta atm, but hey.
Red Corsair wrote: Honestly I think the -1 ap on all shuriken weapons is the craziest thing leaked. Mass shuriken fire was already solid, adding in the additional -1 and then you can jinx a target gets mental.
Its 12" range though.
Necrons have a similar trait, and its not that effective on them because of how risky it is. In most cases you have to be within 12" in order to use it, and that makes getting shot a few times. And necrons are much tougher than Eldar.
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Shadenuat wrote: Within "12. It's for people who like playing their elves the hard way.
To be fair, shuriken catapults are already 12" range. It guess it's GW's way of buffing guardians.
Necrons move 5" and don't get battle focus lol. Your comparing a fine meal with the excrement that's produced later. Necrons are a horrible measuring stick lol.
Red Corsair wrote: Honestly I think the -1 ap on all shuriken weapons is the craziest thing leaked. Mass shuriken fire was already solid, adding in the additional -1 and then you can jinx a target gets mental.
Its 12" range though.
Necrons have a similar trait, and its not that effective on them because of how risky it is. In most cases you have to be within 12" in order to use it, and that makes getting shot a few times. And necrons are much tougher than Eldar.
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Shadenuat wrote: Within "12. It's for people who like playing their elves the hard way.
To be fair, shuriken catapults are already 12" range. It guess it's GW's way of buffing guardians.
Necrons move 5" and don't get battle focus lol. Your comparing a fine meal with the excrement that'd produced later. Necrons are a horrible measuring stick lol.
Alright, fair enough. Still the possibility of return fire though.
Do we know if the -1 AP to shuriken weapons is an Army trait, or an Exarch/Aspect warrior only power? Because if it's an army trait and Alaitoc is getting the Raven Guard treatment, I may choose that trait instead
Shadenuat wrote: I think it's Day 1 FAQ material really. Probably should be melee attacks.
Probably which means it's trash. The only poisoned attacks in melee for coven are on wracks and haemis. No way anyone is trading Urien and a +1 to invuln for that.
I honestly only see the Test of skill combined with vehicles of all things to be the strong element. Damage 2 splinter weapons on a 6 to wound isn't awful either, but right now your looking at flayed skull or black heart to dethrone which is not an easy task IMO. I hope they didn't phone in the coven traits either like it appears because prophets of flesh currently has the best relic, WLT, strat and obsession which makes dethroning it daunting to begin with.
You missed the Flesh Gauntlets on Grotesques. Mortal Wounds going off on a 5+, with re-roll wounds fom the strat only costing 1CP can be very useful against a number of units.
Shadenuat wrote: I think it's Day 1 FAQ material really. Probably should be melee attacks.
Probably which means it's trash. The only poisoned attacks in melee for coven are on wracks and haemis. No way anyone is trading Urien and a +1 to invuln for that.
I honestly only see the Test of skill combined with vehicles of all things to be the strong element. Damage 2 splinter weapons on a 6 to wound isn't awful either, but right now your looking at flayed skull or black heart to dethrone which is not an easy task IMO. I hope they didn't phone in the coven traits either like it appears because prophets of flesh currently has the best relic, WLT, strat and obsession which makes dethroning it daunting to begin with.
You missed the Flesh Gauntlets on Grotesques. Mortal Wounds going off on a 5+, with re-roll wounds fom the strat only costing 1CP can be very useful against a number of units.
It sounds like Covens have lost their re-roll wounds strat, the article says Torturer's Craft is now +1 to wound. Pretty big nerf to them.
Shadenuat wrote: I think it's Day 1 FAQ material really. Probably should be melee attacks.
Probably which means it's trash. The only poisoned attacks in melee for coven are on wracks and haemis. No way anyone is trading Urien and a +1 to invuln for that.
I honestly only see the Test of skill combined with vehicles of all things to be the strong element. Damage 2 splinter weapons on a 6 to wound isn't awful either, but right now your looking at flayed skull or black heart to dethrone which is not an easy task IMO. I hope they didn't phone in the coven traits either like it appears because prophets of flesh currently has the best relic, WLT, strat and obsession which makes dethroning it daunting to begin with.
You missed the Flesh Gauntlets on Grotesques. Mortal Wounds going off on a 5+, with re-roll wounds fom the strat only costing 1CP can be very useful against a number of units.
It sounds like Covens have lost their re-roll wounds strat, the article says Torturer's Craft is now +1 to wound. Pretty big nerf to them.
As I said earlier, I'm hoping thats a mistake on WarComs part (wouldn't be the first time), because TC becaumes a considerably worse version of Veterans of the Long War for twice the cost otherwise.
It sounds like Covens have lost their re-roll wounds strat, the article says Torturer's Craft is now +1 to wound. Pretty big nerf to them.
Well, that'd be fun, wouldn't.
Entice people to not take Prophets so they can play an overpriced melee-only version of VotlW at a discount that might bring it back to VotlW-costs, if you're lucky.
Might just be a website/social-media people typo though. Perhaps?
I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
The comment about Banshees going up against primaris really give it away. This whole book is just a clever plot from marines to se xenos field lots of T3 infantry against their bolters. The design team probably brainstormed how to make marine flamers viable again and came up with rules to bring the aeldari up close.
Suddenly even the stupid new primaris snipers make sense.
Did GW not learn anything? I thought they at least learned to put "INFANTRY and BIKER" before the really OP psychic powers and abilities but I guess not.....
Haven't been following marine supplements much have you these are mild in comparison
Fayric wrote: The comment about Banshees going up against primaris really give it away. This whole book is just a clever plot from marines to se xenos field lots of T3 infantry against their bolters. The design team probably brainstormed how to make marine flamers viable again and came up with rules to bring the aeldari up close.
Suddenly even the stupid new primaris snipers make sense.
Just saying what everyone is thinking
Disclaimer-not really serious here.
I know you're not serious, but the sad thing is that you might be right. And we haven't seen the Salamander supplement in full yet. There's bound to be some flamer buffs in that book.
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
T4 or less, but yes.
Next to a haemi they become toughness 6. That idiotic trait forgets to measure strength verse toughness, instead for some odd reason it measures the toughness of the attacker verse the toughness of the defender. I had to read it a couple times myself. Surely this will be FAQ'd within 2 weeks though.
Oh yeah, that should probably be strength. It's probably working as intended though.
I don't think it can be strength, since don't all poison weapons have a strength value of * and therefore have no number to compare to?
So a Venom stood next to a Haemonculus wounds everything T5 or less on 3s? Or am I missing something that restricts this to melee or none vehicles or something?
T4 or less, but yes.
Next to a haemi they become toughness 6. That idiotic trait forgets to measure strength verse toughness, instead for some odd reason it measures the toughness of the attacker verse the toughness of the defender. I had to read it a couple times myself. Surely this will be FAQ'd within 2 weeks though.
Oh yeah, that should probably be strength. It's probably working as intended though.
I don't think it can be strength, since don't all poison weapons have a strength value of * and therefore have no number to compare to?
Compare strength characteristic of attacking model to target's toughness.
If higher, increase to wound roll with poison weapons by 1.
Shadenuat wrote: I think it's Day 1 FAQ material really. Probably should be melee attacks.
Probably which means it's trash. The only poisoned attacks in melee for coven are on wracks and haemis. No way anyone is trading Urien and a +1 to invuln for that.
I honestly only see the Test of skill combined with vehicles of all things to be the strong element. Damage 2 splinter weapons on a 6 to wound isn't awful either, but right now your looking at flayed skull or black heart to dethrone which is not an easy task IMO. I hope they didn't phone in the coven traits either like it appears because prophets of flesh currently has the best relic, WLT, strat and obsession which makes dethroning it daunting to begin with.
You missed the Flesh Gauntlets on Grotesques. Mortal Wounds going off on a 5+, with re-roll wounds fom the strat only costing 1CP can be very useful against a number of units.
I didn't miss it, but definitely didn't express my thoughts correctly to reflect that. In my experience flesh gauntlets are extremely situational and the cleaver is almost always better. The things I generally want to do mortal wounds to tend to be vehicles or have really good armor saves. Verse armor saves the MW output generally just makes up for the lack of any AP.
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Twilight Pathways wrote: I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
Almost 100% it was an editorial error. Had there been a pic of the actual strat I'd worry. They make these kinds of errors all the time in these articles. They didn't even format the article well enough to understand when the subject is changing on the craftworld section. The -1sp is clearly an army trait upon further scrutiny but initially reads as an exarch power.
I like these traits and the psychic trait sounds interesting too. So do the aspect abilities.
I wonder if there are extra stratagems and relics too? That's the special sauce to these new 'supplements' and its the difference between competing at the highest level and not.
I hope there are stratagems and relics and I hope all factions get this treatment, if so things look great for the foreseeable future.
My only concern is the buff to certain units that are mega strong anyways - Crimson Hunter exarches and Venoms hardly needed a boost and will require a points update.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I like these traits and the psychic trait sounds interesting too. So do the aspect abilities.
I wonder if there are extra stratagems and relics too? That's the special sauce to these new 'supplements' and its the difference between competing at the highest level and not.
I hope there are stratagems and relics and I hope all factions get this treatment, if so things look great for the foreseeable future.
My only concern is the buff to certain units that are mega strong anyways - Crimson Hunter exarches and Venoms hardly needed a boost and will require a points update.
Well we've seen one stratagem for Craftworlds already so I think it's a strong bet there's more and for both factions.
CHE may be getting new abilities but they'll have to replace their current ability to reroll 1's to hit, remains to be seen if the new abilities are as good as the current one or not. Venoms haven't had any direct boost to their profile only the Obsessions, the Drukhari detachment traits, and again it remains to be seen whether they'll get anything better than what Flayed Skull already offers (+3M, re-roll 1's on RF and Ignores Cover, whilst also being confered to a FS unit within the transport).
Shadenuat wrote: I think it's Day 1 FAQ material really. Probably should be melee attacks.
Probably which means it's trash. The only poisoned attacks in melee for coven are on wracks and haemis. No way anyone is trading Urien and a +1 to invuln for that.
I honestly only see the Test of skill combined with vehicles of all things to be the strong element. Damage 2 splinter weapons on a 6 to wound isn't awful either, but right now your looking at flayed skull or black heart to dethrone which is not an easy task IMO. I hope they didn't phone in the coven traits either like it appears because prophets of flesh currently has the best relic, WLT, strat and obsession which makes dethroning it daunting to begin with.
You missed the Flesh Gauntlets on Grotesques. Mortal Wounds going off on a 5+, with re-roll wounds fom the strat only costing 1CP can be very useful against a number of units.
I didn't miss it, but definitely didn't express my thoughts correctly to reflect that. In my experience flesh gauntlets are extremely situational and the cleaver is almost always better. The things I generally want to do mortal wounds to tend to be vehicles or have really good armor saves. Verse armor saves the MW output generally just makes up for the lack of any AP.
Should have made that more clear myself, against Daemons, TWC and Custodes the Flesh Gauntlets are amazing and that trait definitely helps buff them in that respect, but yes against the majority of units the Cleaver is better.
Imateria wrote: Venoms haven't had any direct boost to their profile only the Obsessions, the Drukhari detachment traits, and again it remains to be seen whether they'll get anything better than what Flayed Skull already offers (+3M, re-roll 1's on RF and Ignores Cover, whilst also being confered to a FS unit within the transport).
Twilight Pathways wrote: I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
I don't know where you got that idea. When they updated the daemon kits in Wrath and Ruin, they changed their rules.
BrianDavion wrote:
if Marine sucessor tactics are anything to go by they'll be fluffy and a solid option, but they're not going to replace the "featured craft worlds"
I'm dubious about that. Mix and matching 2 traits seems a lot better than current versions of most Craftworld traits. Unless those are also getting replaced, of course.
Twilight Pathways wrote: I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
I don't know where you got that idea. When they updated the daemon kits in Wrath and Ruin, they changed their rules.
Imateria wrote: Venoms haven't had any direct boost to their profile only the Obsessions, the Drukhari detachment traits, and again it remains to be seen whether they'll get anything better than what Flayed Skull already offers (+3M, re-roll 1's on RF and Ignores Cover, whilst also being confered to a FS unit within the transport).
Twilight Pathways wrote: I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
I don't know where you got that idea. When they updated the daemon kits in Wrath and Ruin, they changed their rules.
Dataslates maybe but not old stratagems.
Didn't isn't can't. They weren't shy about obliterating or altering stratagems in the new SM codex, regardless of whether they came from the previous codex or Vigilus.
Imateria wrote: Venoms haven't had any direct boost to their profile only the Obsessions, the Drukhari detachment traits, and again it remains to be seen whether they'll get anything better than what Flayed Skull already offers (+3M, re-roll 1's on RF and Ignores Cover, whilst also being confered to a FS unit within the transport).
Twilight Pathways wrote: I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
I don't know where you got that idea. When they updated the daemon kits in Wrath and Ruin, they changed their rules.
Dataslates maybe but not old stratagems.
Didn't isn't can't. They weren't shy about obliterating or altering stratagems in the new SM codex, regardless of whether they came from the previous codex or Vigilus.
Right, except that was a new codex.... This isn't...
Imateria wrote: Venoms haven't had any direct boost to their profile only the Obsessions, the Drukhari detachment traits, and again it remains to be seen whether they'll get anything better than what Flayed Skull already offers (+3M, re-roll 1's on RF and Ignores Cover, whilst also being confered to a FS unit within the transport).
Imateria wrote: Venoms haven't had any direct boost to their profile only the Obsessions, the Drukhari detachment traits, and again it remains to be seen whether they'll get anything better than what Flayed Skull already offers (+3M, re-roll 1's on RF and Ignores Cover, whilst also being confered to a FS unit within the transport).
Not sure what that link is supposed to illustrate.
Seriously? Not sure I could've made it much clearer. Not that it matters, I was addressing someone else.
Yes seriously, its the top 4 results from an event entirely out of context. Not sure why the snark.
Perhaps if you were involved in the proceeding brief discussion you'd understand the context? Genuinely baffled as to how you are struggling to understand my post to be honest Either way, feel free not to comment on posts that are neither directed at you or involve you in any way, unless you have something more constructive to add than "I don't understand this".
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vipoid wrote: Have we heard anything about new Warlord Traits and Relics in this book?
Twilight Pathways wrote: I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
I don't know where you got that idea. When they updated the daemon kits in Wrath and Ruin, they changed their rules.
Dataslates maybe but not old stratagems.
Didn't isn't can't. They weren't shy about obliterating or altering stratagems in the new SM codex, regardless of whether they came from the previous codex or Vigilus.
Right, except that was a new codex.... This isn't...
Well spotted. Its an overhaul and partial replacement for two. For all their gibber about a 'campaign' (with... no mention of campaign rules so far), this is Eldar and Dark Eldar 8.5.
It seems pretty obvious that GW is setting out to deliberately change things in the two elf books, so the idea that they won't touch certain things seems odd and weird.
It seem more likely to me that they made changes while making updates in the new book, not that they made multiple errors in the preview article.
Maybe I had misread it, but the -1 AP on Shurikens was showcased in the Exarch Powers section of the article, wasn't it? It looked to me like a possible Exarch power for someone like Dire Avengers, meaning it would be solely based around that unit (or several units I suppose). I didn't read it as a Craftworld trait.
Twilight Pathways wrote: I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
I don't know where you got that idea. When they updated the daemon kits in Wrath and Ruin, they changed their rules.
BrianDavion wrote:
if Marine sucessor tactics are anything to go by they'll be fluffy and a solid option, but they're not going to replace the "featured craft worlds"
I'm dubious about that. Mix and matching 2 traits seems a lot better than current versions of most Craftworld traits. Unless those are also getting replaced, of course.
to be honest I am too. the Marines worked because GW went back and rejiggered Marine traits to work within a formula (although Iron Hands breaks this formula, getting three traits.. guess whose seen as the most powerful? *exasperated sigh*) eldar don't follow the formula. still it's possiable that GW's long term plan includes a 2.0 eldar codex. put this box out, give it 6 months then release codex: eldar when the plastic banshee kit becomes avaliable.
Elbows wrote: Maybe I had misread it, but the -1 AP on Shurikens was showcased in the Exarch Powers section of the article, wasn't it? It looked to me like a possible Exarch power for someone like Dire Avengers, meaning it would be solely based around that unit (or several units I suppose). I didn't read it as a Craftworld trait.
It struck me as obnoxiously unclear formatting, since it is after disarming strike. I think it is, however, since they traits are called 'Craftworld Attributes' and the rule uses 'model with this attribute' to distinguish who gets to use the bonus (SM Codex uses 'this tactic' the same way). Presumably Diviners of Fate(6++) and Wrath of the Dead are also craftworld attributes. The latter certainly isn't an exarch power, and comes before the shift to talking about the new psychic discipline.
Good point. It would make more sense as an Exarch power, but I agree it's all jumbled together. I don't think -1 to shurikens is mega-incredible, but it'd be a solid boost solely depending on army builds.
Unfortunately it would widen the gulf between shuriken cannons vs. other Eldar heavy weapons which is sad, since they're really stuck in a bad place already. I hate that the shuriken cannon is often the best choice...and this wouldn't really help that case.
Twilight Pathways wrote: I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
I don't know where you got that idea. When they updated the daemon kits in Wrath and Ruin, they changed their rules.
BrianDavion wrote:
if Marine sucessor tactics are anything to go by they'll be fluffy and a solid option, but they're not going to replace the "featured craft worlds"
I'm dubious about that. Mix and matching 2 traits seems a lot better than current versions of most Craftworld traits. Unless those are also getting replaced, of course.
to be honest I am too. the Marines worked because GW went back and rejiggered Marine traits to work within a formula (although Iron Hands breaks this formula, getting three traits.. guess whose seen as the most powerful? *exasperated sigh*) eldar don't follow the formula. still it's possiable that GW's long term plan includes a 2.0 eldar codex. put this box out, give it 6 months then release codex: eldar when the plastic banshee kit becomes avaliable.
Funny, how it was deemed necessary for some factions to be locked into the uncustomizable traits with added restrictions whilest other just get to make stuff.
Elbows wrote: Good point. It would make more sense as an Exarch power, but I agree it's all jumbled together. I don't think -1 to shurikens is mega-incredible, but it'd be a solid boost solely depending on army builds.
Unfortunately it would widen the gulf between shuriken cannons vs. other Eldar heavy weapons which is sad, since they're really stuck in a bad place already. I hate that the shuriken cannon is often the best choice...and this wouldn't really help that case.
It doesn't massively help the Shuricannon does it? It's only for units within 12" right? Also there might be other, more beneficial tactics for use with other heavy weapons.
Imateria wrote: Venoms haven't had any direct boost to their profile only the Obsessions, the Drukhari detachment traits, and again it remains to be seen whether they'll get anything better than what Flayed Skull already offers (+3M, re-roll 1's on RF and Ignores Cover, whilst also being confered to a FS unit within the transport).
Not sure what that link is supposed to illustrate.
Seriously? Not sure I could've made it much clearer. Not that it matters, I was addressing someone else.
Yes seriously, its the top 4 results from an event entirely out of context. Not sure why the snark.
Perhaps if you were involved in the proceeding brief discussion you'd understand the context? Genuinely baffled as to how you are struggling to understand my post to be honest Either way, feel free not to comment on posts that are neither directed at you or involve you in any way, unless you have something more constructive to add than "I don't understand this".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: Have we heard anything about new Warlord Traits and Relics in this book?
We have not.
I am following the discussion fine(if you can call it that since he literally hasn't responded to you lol). His point was flayed skull is the most beneficial to venoms, not that they require it to be a functioning component to a winning list. You then posted the top 4 results to some event with zero context. Good job. Has nothing to do with his initial point. It's also anecdotal at best.
Elbows wrote: Good point. It would make more sense as an Exarch power, but I agree it's all jumbled together. I don't think -1 to shurikens is mega-incredible, but it'd be a solid boost solely depending on army builds.
Unfortunately it would widen the gulf between shuriken cannons vs. other Eldar heavy weapons which is sad, since they're really stuck in a bad place already. I hate that the shuriken cannon is often the best choice...and this wouldn't really help that case.
It doesn't massively help the Shuricannon does it? It's only for units within 12" right? Also there might be other, more beneficial tactics for use with other heavy weapons.
The shuriken cannon only has a range of 24", so it would help pretty often. The Shuriken Cannon is one of MANY Eldar weapons which have AP0 unless you roll a '6'. The issue is that Eldar heavy weapons are generally expensive and suffer the -1 to hit when moving, whereas the Shuriken Cannon is an Assault weapon - Eldar ignore the penalties for moving and shooting Assault weapons. Add to that it was originally cheaper than even the crappy Scatter Laser, and you end up really struggling to justify the majority of other Eldar heavy weapons. The Scatter Laser was so bad they had to hack its points cost in half to try to justify it.
So any rule which only targets Shuriken weapons just makes the Shuriken Cannon the better choice...but moreso. The 12" limitation is nice, but again the farthest shooting Shuriken weapon is the cannon (I don't know if Maugan Ra's Maugetar counts, it might be longer range?) at 24", so it'll be useful most of the time.
PS: And yes, there could absolutely be other rules changes/buffs to normal heavy weapons. Just generally speaking, they're potentially doubling up on "why take anything else?" for the Shuriken Cannon which is a little meh.
I am following the discussion fine(if you can call it that since he literally hasn't responded to you lol). His point was flayed skull is the most beneficial to venoms, not that they require it to be a functioning component to a winning list. You then posted the top 4 results to some event with zero context. Good job. Has nothing to do with his initial point. It's also anecdotal at best.
I don't think you need to state his point for him. You certainly seem to be missing my original point, since it isn't in your swathe of quotations. My point being - Venoms are incredibly strong as they are and don't need a buff - for reference see the numbers spammed at a recent event that I posted.
I'm not sure you understand what 'anecdotal' means either. Me providing evidence of a player finishing 2nd at a massive event is literally the opposite of anecdotal.
Elbows wrote: Good point. It would make more sense as an Exarch power, but I agree it's all jumbled together. I don't think -1 to shurikens is mega-incredible, but it'd be a solid boost solely depending on army builds.
Unfortunately it would widen the gulf between shuriken cannons vs. other Eldar heavy weapons which is sad, since they're really stuck in a bad place already. I hate that the shuriken cannon is often the best choice...and this wouldn't really help that case.
It doesn't massively help the Shuricannon does it? It's only for units within 12" right? Also there might be other, more beneficial tactics for use with other heavy weapons.
The shuriken cannon only has a range of 24", so it would help pretty often. The Shuriken Cannon is one of MANY Eldar weapons which have AP0 unless you roll a '6'. The issue is that Eldar heavy weapons are generally expensive and suffer the -1 to hit when moving, whereas the Shuriken Cannon is an Assault weapon - Eldar ignore the penalties for moving and shooting Assault weapons. Add to that it was originally cheaper than even the crappy Scatter Laser, and you end up really struggling to justify the majority of other Eldar heavy weapons. The Scatter Laser was so bad they had to hack its points cost in half to try to justify it.
So any rule which only targets Shuriken weapons just makes the Shuriken Cannon the better choice...but moreso. The 12" limitation is nice, but again the farthest shooting Shuriken weapon is the cannon (I don't know if Maugan Ra's Maugetar counts, it might be longer range?) at 24", so it'll be useful most of the time.
PS: And yes, there could absolutely be other rules changes/buffs to normal heavy weapons. Just generally speaking, they're potentially doubling up on "why take anything else?" for the Shuriken Cannon which is a little meh.
I forgot Shuricannon was assault to be fair.
I saw this buff primarily aimed at pistols and cats but I take your point.
The poor part to me is that you'd generally not shoot something within 12" because you're about to charge the thing and you don't want to decrease your odds of making said charge. Rarely are there a lot of options to fire at within 12". Also the opponent can much easier mitigate any risk of using this trait well.
Yeah it just gives a lot of sting to things which need to zip across the board to finish something off. A Wave Serpent could zip somewhere, pop its Serpent Shield (D3 mortal wounds), and fire off 9 Strength 6, AP-1 shots. It's not ideal, but it just gives that gun even more usefulness.
(ideally though I agree, you're not trying to be within 12").
It does give more bite to Aspect Warriors which I think is the true intention. The Shuriken Cannon is just along for the ride, really.
It does give more bite to Aspect Warriors which I think is the true intention. The Shuriken Cannon is just along for the ride, really.
Yea I think you're right but assuming that's the case, why doesn't the trait just say something like "add -1AP for weapons used by all [ASPECT WARRIOR] [INFANTRY] units with this trait"? Seems like a missed opportunity.
Still, I like these rules, they're thematic and potentially competitive.
I am following the discussion fine(if you can call it that since he literally hasn't responded to you lol). His point was flayed skull is the most beneficial to venoms, not that they require it to be a functioning component to a winning list. You then posted the top 4 results to some event with zero context. Good job. Has nothing to do with his initial point. It's also anecdotal at best.
I don't think you need to state his point for him. You certainly seem to be missing my original point, since it isn't in your swathe of quotations. My point being - Venoms are incredibly strong as they are and don't need a buff - for reference see the numbers spammed at a recent event that I posted.
I'm not sure you understand what 'anecdotal' means either. Me providing evidence of a player finishing 2nd at a massive event is literally the opposite of anecdotal.
No I thought I understood your point, but wasn't 100% clear so I thought I'd inquire to be sure rather then assume. At which point you were rude. Implied I couldn't keep up, then told me not to get involved despite the fact your literally using a forum for discussion when the PM button is appropriate if you just wanted to discuss it with one user only.
Sorry, anecdotal is the wrong term. But the fact remains you are using one data point to make a conclusion. That link also only presents 4 lists, no total attendance, number of rounds or format. I have no idea what terrain was like or what the missions were but was interested in discussing that.
Red Corsair wrote: No I thought I understood your point, but wasn't 100% clear so I thought I'd inquire to be sure rather then assume. At which point you were rude. Implied I couldn't keep up, then told me not to get involved despite the fact your literally using a forum for discussion when the PM button is appropriate if you just wanted to discuss it with one user only.
Sorry, anecdotal is the wrong term. But the fact remains you are using one data point to make a conclusion. That link also only presents 4 lists, no total attendance, number of rounds or format. I have no idea what terrain was like or what the missions were but was interested in discussing that.
Right then, apologies if you didn't understand my point. Still not sure how I could've made it clearer.
Do you doubt that Venoms are one of the strongest and most spammed of all the units in the DE dex? Like do I really need to provide more evidence? This is common knowledge right? If you're still unsure I'd advise that you take a look at the 40k stats site I linked and check out the Dark Eldar lists. Take a look at how many Venoms are taken and see what you think. E - here's the link to the other tournaments and number of players at Iron Halo; https://www.40kstats.com/top-4s
Red Corsair wrote: No I thought I understood your point, but wasn't 100% clear so I thought I'd inquire to be sure rather then assume. At which point you were rude. Implied I couldn't keep up, then told me not to get involved despite the fact your literally using a forum for discussion when the PM button is appropriate if you just wanted to discuss it with one user only.
Sorry, anecdotal is the wrong term. But the fact remains you are using one data point to make a conclusion. That link also only presents 4 lists, no total attendance, number of rounds or format. I have no idea what terrain was like or what the missions were but was interested in discussing that.
Right then, apologies if you didn't understand my point. Still not sure how I could've made it clearer.
Do you doubt that Venoms are one of the strongest and most spammed of all the units in the DE dex? Like do I really need to provide more evidence? This is common knowledge right? If you're still unsure I'd advise that you take a look at the 40k stats site I linked and check out the Dark Eldar lists. Take a look at how many Venoms are taken and see what you think. E - here's the link to the other tournaments and number of players at Iron Halo; https://www.40kstats.com/top-4s
You'd probably be surprised by the number of DEldar players that think Venoms are pretty crap (I disagree with them, for what it's worth).
Tomorrow we get more rules for the Banshees, Incubi and characters huh? Interesting. Might be able to work out if other unit's datasheets are changing from the article.
Funny, how it was deemed necessary for some factions to be locked into the uncustomizable traits with added restrictions whilest other just get to make stuff.
It isn't that. Its just that GW changed the design paradigm in mid-stream. Again.
With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.
Red Corsair wrote: No I thought I understood your point, but wasn't 100% clear so I thought I'd inquire to be sure rather then assume. At which point you were rude. Implied I couldn't keep up, then told me not to get involved despite the fact your literally using a forum for discussion when the PM button is appropriate if you just wanted to discuss it with one user only.
Sorry, anecdotal is the wrong term. But the fact remains you are using one data point to make a conclusion. That link also only presents 4 lists, no total attendance, number of rounds or format. I have no idea what terrain was like or what the missions were but was interested in discussing that.
Right then, apologies if you didn't understand my point. Still not sure how I could've made it clearer.
Do you doubt that Venoms are one of the strongest and most spammed of all the units in the DE dex? Like do I really need to provide more evidence? This is common knowledge right? If you're still unsure I'd advise that you take a look at the 40k stats site I linked and check out the Dark Eldar lists. Take a look at how many Venoms are taken and see what you think.
It was less a case of me not understanding your point and me hoping there was more discussion with your point since it seemed so obvious. I guess I thought maybe you had something more to say beyond venoms are strong. If your saying they are broken, then I disagree. Again because context matters. There are multiple reasons why venoms are popular beyond them being too good.
Red Corsair wrote: No I thought I understood your point, but wasn't 100% clear so I thought I'd inquire to be sure rather then assume. At which point you were rude. Implied I couldn't keep up, then told me not to get involved despite the fact your literally using a forum for discussion when the PM button is appropriate if you just wanted to discuss it with one user only.
Sorry, anecdotal is the wrong term. But the fact remains you are using one data point to make a conclusion. That link also only presents 4 lists, no total attendance, number of rounds or format. I have no idea what terrain was like or what the missions were but was interested in discussing that.
Right then, apologies if you didn't understand my point. Still not sure how I could've made it clearer.
Do you doubt that Venoms are one of the strongest and most spammed of all the units in the DE dex? Like do I really need to provide more evidence? This is common knowledge right? If you're still unsure I'd advise that you take a look at the 40k stats site I linked and check out the Dark Eldar lists. Take a look at how many Venoms are taken and see what you think. E - here's the link to the other tournaments and number of players at Iron Halo; https://www.40kstats.com/top-4s
You'd probably be surprised by the number of DEldar players that think Venoms are pretty crap (I disagree with them, for what it's worth).
I don't think they are crap, but I do think the rule set encourages shooting platforms. I think raiders wracks and wyches need improvement rather then venoms needing to be brought down.
Funny, how it was deemed necessary for some factions to be locked into the uncustomizable traits with added restrictions whilest other just get to make stuff.
It isn't that. Its just that GW changed the design paradigm in mid-stream. Again.
With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.
Oh, I hope so. If loyalist marines get their chapter tactics on vehicles, Chaos marines better start getting legion traits on theirs. Plus, Thousand Sons better get a second effect out of theirs, since their CERTAINLY doesn't work on vehicles right now.
Funny, how it was deemed necessary for some factions to be locked into the uncustomizable traits with added restrictions whilest other just get to make stuff.
It isn't that. Its just that GW changed the design paradigm in mid-stream. Again.
With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.
Oh, I hope so. If loyalist marines get their chapter tactics on vehicles, Chaos marines better start getting legion traits on theirs. Plus, Thousand Sons better get a second effect out of theirs, since their CERTAINLY doesn't work on vehicles right now.
That ship sailed over a month ago. Codex marines do get their tactics on vehicles. Other marines just got the bonus attack for charging/being charged.
So GW are back to "40k is a setting, not a story", like so many of us have been saying since before the return of Roboute at the end of 7th.
That's a good thing IMO. That's the way it should be.
Voss wrote: With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.
I've always thought 8th Ed could do with more rules.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So GW are back to "40k is a setting, not a story", like so many of us have been saying since before the return of Roboute at the end of 7th.
That's a good thing IMO. That's the way it should be.
Voss wrote: With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.
I've always thought 8th Ed could do with more rules.
well GW's been removing customization options from their various units since late 7th edition. at least now we're getting some army customization to make up for it
H.B.M.C. wrote: So GW are back to "40k is a setting, not a story", like so many of us have been saying since before the return of Roboute at the end of 7th
That's a good thing IMO. That's the way it should be.
What are you referencing? Everything so far seems to be about Drazhar's personal murder quest story, and nothing about the setting at all.
Voss wrote: With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.
I've always thought 8th Ed could do with more rules.
Certainly seems to be the path they're on. I'd personally go for a nice bout of cutting the special snowflake fat and more USRs.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So GW are back to "40k is a setting, not a story", like so many of us have been saying since before the return of Roboute at the end of 7th
That's a good thing IMO. That's the way it should be.
What are you referencing? Everything so far seems to be about Drazhar's personal murder quest story, and nothing about the setting at all.
Voss wrote: With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.
I've always thought 8th Ed could do with more rules.
Certainly seems to be the path they're on. I'd personally go for a nice bout of cutting the special snowflake fat and more USRs.
If it was about Drazhar's fluff he should be fighting Karandras, instead of randomly fighting banshees.
Voss wrote: What are you referencing? Everything so far seems to be about Drazhar's personal murder quest story, and nothing about the setting at all.
Wait... was this not posted here? It's a reddit summary of the Awakening preview. Specifically the last point is what I'm referring to:
-The way GW handles AoS and 40K storytelling differently. AoS is an episodic setting that has its lore expanded and progressed with each release. AoS follows a linear storyline. 40K storytelling revolves around creating a big backdrop and then sprinkling it with stories and also give the fans the option of using the backdrop to tell their own stories. What they did in 8th ED is just repainting the backdrop. Though there are ongoing narrative arcs, GW is not interested in telling a linear ongoing story in 40K.
Voss wrote: Certainly seems to be the path they're on. I'd personally go for a nice bout of cutting the special snowflake fat and more USRs.
USRs? Then we wouldn't have our precious "bespoke" rules!
If it was about Drazhar's fluff he should be fighting Karandras, instead of randomly fighting banshees.
I didn't say it was about his fluff. I said its about his murder quest, that's the story being presented:
Warhammer Community wrote: Blood of the Phoenix also includes a 40-page campaign book with everything you need to get started. It tells of Drazhar’s hateful quest to slay a Phoenix Lord in combat to cement his place among the Drukhari as a warrior of unrivalled skill forever
Voss wrote: What are you referencing? Everything so far seems to be about Drazhar's personal murder quest story, and nothing about the setting at all.
Wait... was this not posted here? It's a reddit summary of the Awakening preview. Specifically the last point is what I'm referring to:
-The way GW handles AoS and 40K storytelling differently. AoS is an episodic setting that has its lore expanded and progressed with each release. AoS follows a linear storyline. 40K storytelling revolves around creating a big backdrop and then sprinkling it with stories and also give the fans the option of using the backdrop to tell their own stories. What they did in 8th ED is just repainting the backdrop. Though there are ongoing narrative arcs, GW is not interested in telling a linear ongoing story in 40K.
Words, words.
Proof and pudding come to mind. But lack of a coherent narrative (which is how I translate 'not interesting in telling a linear ongoing story'), doesn't mean its going to be setting over story.
Voss wrote: Certainly seems to be the path they're on. I'd personally go for a nice bout of cutting the special snowflake fat and more USRs.
USRs? Then we wouldn't have our precious "bespoke" rules!
They keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means.
In particular, I don't think it means 'reroll 1s' or +1/-1 to hit.
If it was about Drazhar's fluff he should be fighting Karandras, instead of randomly fighting banshees.
I didn't say it was about his fluff. I said its about his murder quest, that's the story being presented:
Warhammer Community wrote: Blood of the Phoenix also includes a 40-page campaign book with everything you need to get started. It tells of Drazhar’s hateful quest to slay a Phoenix Lord in combat to cement his place among the Drukhari as a warrior of unrivalled skill forever
Voss wrote: What are you referencing? Everything so far seems to be about Drazhar's personal murder quest story, and nothing about the setting at all.
Wait... was this not posted here? It's a reddit summary of the Awakening preview. Specifically the last point is what I'm referring to:
-The way GW handles AoS and 40K storytelling differently. AoS is an episodic setting that has its lore expanded and progressed with each release. AoS follows a linear storyline. 40K storytelling revolves around creating a big backdrop and then sprinkling it with stories and also give the fans the option of using the backdrop to tell their own stories. What they did in 8th ED is just repainting the backdrop. Though there are ongoing narrative arcs, GW is not interested in telling a linear ongoing story in 40K.
Words, words.
Proof and pudding come to mind. But lack of a coherent narrative (which is how I translate 'not interesting in telling a linear ongoing story'), doesn't mean its going to be setting over story.
Voss wrote: Certainly seems to be the path they're on. I'd personally go for a nice bout of cutting the special snowflake fat and more USRs.
USRs? Then we wouldn't have our precious "bespoke" rules!
They keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means.
In particular, I don't think it means 'reroll 1s' or +1/-1 to hit.
Hey that’s a little unfair don’t forget the exploding 6s there bespoke too
USRs are awful because they mean that the codex doesn't contain all information within.
I remember when I first got into the hobby I had my 2nd Ed Eldar Codex and the majority of rules in there for my units were referenced in another book that I didn't own. It was frustrating and bogus. Dropping them was a great idea because it means the rulebook is actually just the rulebook (rather than the codex USR reference book) and codexes are just that.
I could think of nothing worse than returning to USRs.
Plus we already have a few that are required - Flyers all have the same rules for example.
Lack of USR results in same rule working differently. Especially with GW. Remember how dark angels had weaker stormshield just because? Or how their smoke launchers worked totally differently to other smoke launchers?
Lack of USR leads to total mess. Just like 8th ed in fact!
Given the popularity and relative balance of this edition compared to every other, and given that this edition is the first to do away with USRs I am inclined to disagree.
Rules can be fixed. USRs that confuse and frustrate new players cannot.
Funny, how it was deemed necessary for some factions to be locked into the uncustomizable traits with added restrictions whilest other just get to make stuff.
It isn't that. Its just that GW changed the design paradigm in mid-stream. Again.
With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.
Yay, no thanks. Chaos won't get anything like that soon and the specification for the renegades to be mark bound make it clear that nothing is going to happen.
This isn’t Proposed Rules forum, guys. We don’t have USRs. No point discussing them in N&R as GW haven’t shown any indication of their return, and that would require a rewrite of every book anyway. Not happening any time soon.
Funny, how it was deemed necessary for some factions to be locked into the uncustomizable traits with added restrictions whilest other just get to make stuff.
It isn't that. Its just that GW changed the design paradigm in mid-stream. Again.
With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did.
There are more recent Codexes like GSC that don't get tactics on vehicles either. There's no paradigm change there. Just a book-by-book thing GW does or doesn't do for unknown reasons.
They even retroactively further restricted the Chaos Marines this last time out. Not enough to be restricted to infantry/bikes/dreads. Let's remove it from the already multiple nerfed Cultists.
vipoid wrote: I have to be honest - as a DE player I'm still waiting for even a single rule that makes me the slightest bit interested in purchasing this book.
Don't you mean a single new HQ that actually is generic? Edit: With mobility options?
vipoid wrote: I have to be honest - as a DE player I'm still waiting for even a single rule that makes me the slightest bit interested in purchasing this book.
vipoid wrote: I have to be honest - as a DE player I'm still waiting for even a single rule that makes me the slightest bit interested in purchasing this book.
design your own cabal rules aren't intreasting?
not if you can't customize the leader of the cabal
vipoid wrote: I have to be honest - as a DE player I'm still waiting for even a single rule that makes me the slightest bit interested in purchasing this book.
Don't you mean a single new HQ that actually is generic? Edit: With mobility options?
That would certainly be the dream. In fact, if one was revealed I might even break my rule of never preordering anything ever.
However, I'd happily settle for something to just make the exiting generic HQs more interesting.
Or, hell, Ynnari rules that are actually worth a damn, so that I at least have an alternate way to play them that isn't utter garbage and doesn't require the forced inclusion of special characters.
vipoid wrote: I have to be honest - as a DE player I'm still waiting for even a single rule that makes me the slightest bit interested in purchasing this book.
design your own cabal rules aren't intreasting?
Not to me, no. Even less so after seeing how dreary the options for such are.
vipoid wrote: I have to be honest - as a DE player I'm still waiting for even a single rule that makes me the slightest bit interested in purchasing this book.
design your own cabal rules aren't intreasting?
not if you can't customize the leader of the cabal
Not Online!!! wrote: No, i can just extrapulate how you feel, out of the perspective of someone that has a list even more cut to ribbons by GW.
Traits are worth jack if the army itself is not complete enough in roster thanks to cuts.
Pretty much.
The thing is, DE already has a pretty good selection of army traits. Maybe a couple could do with a slight leg-up but I think they're already one of the better aspects of the codex. Hence, adding a bunch more really isn't going to fix anything.
Know what I would have loved to see? Something like the new Exach powers for each of the DEHQs. Boom. We'd still only have 3 generic HQs, but at least you'd have a lot more options for customisation and/or better focusing them towards a particular role.
Not Online!!! wrote: No, i can just extrapulate how you feel, out of the perspective of someone that has a list even more cut to ribbons by GW.
Traits are worth jack if the army itself is not complete enough in roster thanks to cuts.
Pretty much.
The thing is, DE already has a pretty good selection of army traits. Maybe a couple could do with a slight leg-up but I think they're already one of the better aspects of the codex. Hence, adding a bunch more really isn't going to fix anything.
Know what I would have loved to see? Something like the new Exach powers for each of the DEHQs. Boom. We'd still only have 3 generic HQs, but at least you'd have a lot more options for customisation and/or better focusing them towards a particular role.
It's mostly an issue for armies that are supposedly determined by their individualistic HQ in their behaviour imo.
Not Online!!! wrote: No, i can just extrapulate how you feel, out of the perspective of someone that has a list even more cut to ribbons by GW.
Traits are worth jack if the army itself is not complete enough in roster thanks to cuts.
Pretty much.
The thing is, DE already has a pretty good selection of army traits. Maybe a couple could do with a slight leg-up but I think they're already one of the better aspects of the codex. Hence, adding a bunch more really isn't going to fix anything.
Know what I would have loved to see? Something like the new Exach powers for each of the DEHQs. Boom. We'd still only have 3 generic HQs, but at least you'd have a lot more options for customisation and/or better focusing them towards a particular role.
It's mostly an issue for armies that are supposedly determined by their individualistic HQ in their behaviour imo.
I've said it before and I'll say it a million times, that what 40k really needs is for EVERY army to have a box like the Space Marine Commander box. And IMHO the next time GW puts out one of their survey's we should press for it.
Problem is, while diversity is nice, the Eldar stuff is functionally still a side-grade, not an upgrade to the Space Marines 8.5 power-level.
Iron Hands and Ulthwe were both a 6+++.
GW: Hey Iron Hands players, would you like to add 5+ overwatch, less degrading on vehicles, -1 AP to weapons, +1 attack on all units, move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty, free re-roll 1s on heavy weapons, extra wounds on more units, point drops, ridiculous new WL traits, strats, relics and more to go with that 6+++ ?
GW: Hey Ulthwe players, would you like to trade your 6+++ for a -1 AP to Shuriken under 12" (but not on the rending, and you'll lose Eldrad and the Ulthwe strat/relic/WL trait)?
Sunny Side Up wrote: Problem is, while diversity is nice, the Eldar stuff is functionally still a side-grade, not an upgrade to the Space Marines 8.5 power-level.
Iron Hands and Ulthwe were both a 6+++.
GW: Hey Iron Hands players, would you like to add 5+ overwatch, less degrading on vehicles, -1 AP to weapons, +1 attack on all units, move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty, free re-roll 1s on heavy weapons, extra wounds on more units, point drops, ridiculous new WL traits, strats, relics and more to go with that 6+++ ?
GW: Hey Ulthwe players, would you like to trade your 6+++ for a -1 AP to Shuriken under 12" (but not on the rending, and you'll lose Eldrad and the Ulthwe strat/relic/WL trait)?
assuming Eldar don't get the ability to take two traits like marines do.
good point on drukhari tactic thread. That 6 to wound on poison weapon=dam2 is going to be fun rolling vs multi wound models. Forget dice rolling. Roll to hit, start rolling to wound and saves one by one. Whee.
For those who are wondering, I red somewhere there will no modification to Chaos Traits in Psychic Awakening Volume 2. Only things planned are Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics for each legion (except BL, DG, TS and renegade chapters like Flawless Host).
if chaos gets anything new It'll be nice. minimal impact for me since my chaos is black legion, but I hope it's good stuff that the other chaos legionarres are happy with
BrianDavion wrote: if chaos gets anything new It'll be nice. minimal impact for me since my chaos is black legion, but I hope it's good stuff that the other chaos legionarres are happy with
Considering kika claimed only wl traits and relics?
Not Online!!! wrote: No, i can just extrapulate how you feel, out of the perspective of someone that has a list even more cut to ribbons by GW.
Traits are worth jack if the army itself is not complete enough in roster thanks to cuts.
Pretty much.
The thing is, DE already has a pretty good selection of army traits. Maybe a couple could do with a slight leg-up but I think they're already one of the better aspects of the codex. Hence, adding a bunch more really isn't going to fix anything.
Know what I would have loved to see? Something like the new Exach powers for each of the DEHQs. Boom. We'd still only have 3 generic HQs, but at least you'd have a lot more options for customisation and/or better focusing them towards a particular role.
It's mostly an issue for armies that are supposedly determined by their individualistic HQ in their behaviour imo.
I've said it before and I'll say it a million times, that what 40k really needs is for EVERY army to have a box like the Space Marine Commander box. And IMHO the next time GW puts out one of their survey's we should press for it.
Yeah I was thinking about this recently- a lot of armies are well served in their overall range but single models are the detail thats missing and its where players/collectors really personalise their force. So needed for most factions.
For those who are wondering, I red somewhere there will no modification to Chaos Traits in Psychic Awakening Volume 2. Only things planned are Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics for each legion (except BL, DG, TS and renegade chapters like Flawless Host).
Well, it was nice for the renegades to have something for a little while before being put to the back of the bus again.
Imateria wrote: Venoms haven't had any direct boost to their profile only the Obsessions, the Drukhari detachment traits, and again it remains to be seen whether they'll get anything better than what Flayed Skull already offers (+3M, re-roll 1's on RF and Ignores Cover, whilst also being confered to a FS unit within the transport).
Not sure what that link is supposed to illustrate.
Seriously? Not sure I could've made it much clearer. Not that it matters, I was addressing someone else.
Yes seriously, its the top 4 results from an event entirely out of context. Not sure why the snark.
Perhaps if you were involved in the proceeding brief discussion you'd understand the context? Genuinely baffled as to how you are struggling to understand my post to be honest Either way, feel free not to comment on posts that are neither directed at you or involve you in any way, unless you have something more constructive to add than "I don't understand this".
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vipoid wrote: Have we heard anything about new Warlord Traits and Relics in this book?
We have not.
I am following the discussion fine(if you can call it that since he literally hasn't responded to you lol). His point was flayed skull is the most beneficial to venoms, not that they require it to be a functioning component to a winning list. You then posted the top 4 results to some event with zero context. Good job. Has nothing to do with his initial point. It's also anecdotal at best.
And now that I'm looking through this thread again I'll respond. Not that I need to, Red Corsair has made all the relevant points already, that Venoms are pretty good as is and that the xisting Obsessions, particularly Flayed Skull IMO, gives them a lot already (Black Heart is the most popular trait for the obvious reason, Agents of Vect is the most powerful stratagem in the game, but the LGT showed there are a lot of people running Flayed Skull Battalions as well.) and we have yet to see anything in the mix and match that would combine to be as powerful overall for Venoms as we already have.
As for Burnage comment reagrding Drulhari players thinking Venoms are underpowered, thats not quite true as it's more about Splinter Weapons. Being Poison Weapons that wound on a fixed 4+ they are horribly ineffeciant against T3 units, of which we see a lot more of this edition. Add to that that the Splinter Cannon, a RF3 weapon, is a 10pt upgrade over the Twin Splinter Rifle, a RF2 weapon, and it's just too much to be worth it in most cases (the ranges are different, so playstyle has a big effect on wether you think the weapon is worth it or not).
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Sunny Side Up wrote: Problem is, while diversity is nice, the Eldar stuff is functionally still a side-grade, not an upgrade to the Space Marines 8.5 power-level.
Iron Hands and Ulthwe were both a 6+++.
GW: Hey Iron Hands players, would you like to add 5+ overwatch, less degrading on vehicles, -1 AP to weapons, +1 attack on all units, move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty, free re-roll 1s on heavy weapons, extra wounds on more units, point drops, ridiculous new WL traits, strats, relics and more to go with that 6+++ ?
GW: Hey Ulthwe players, would you like to trade your 6+++ for a -1 AP to Shuriken under 12" (but not on the rending, and you'll lose Eldrad and the Ulthwe strat/relic/WL trait)?
This is a serious misrepresentation though. You're comparing a named sub faction to a single option in the build-your-own list, which is particularly egregious when you choose two traits, not just the one. Since Space Marines do this as well, why didn't you make that comparison too?
Also, your making the assumption that the existing Craftworld Traits and Obsessions are going to be left unchanged. Well, you know what they say about assumptions....
H.B.M.C. wrote: So GW are back to "40k is a setting, not a story", like so many of us have been saying since before the return of Roboute at the end of 7th
That's a good thing IMO. That's the way it should be.
What are you referencing? Everything so far seems to be about Drazhar's personal murder quest story, and nothing about the setting at all.
Voss wrote: With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.
I've always thought 8th Ed could do with more rules.
Certainly seems to be the path they're on. I'd personally go for a nice bout of cutting the special snowflake fat and more USRs.
If it was about Drazhar's fluff he should be fighting Karandras, instead of randomly fighting banshees.
Why is Drazhar only ever allowed to fight Karandras? Thats just dumb.
Twilight Pathways wrote: I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.
I don't know where you got that idea. When they updated the daemon kits in Wrath and Ruin, they changed their rules.
Dataslates maybe but not old stratagems.
Didn't isn't can't. They weren't shy about obliterating or altering stratagems in the new SM codex, regardless of whether they came from the previous codex or Vigilus.
Right, except that was a new codex.... This isn't...
Well spotted. Its an overhaul and partial replacement for two. For all their gibber about a 'campaign' (with... no mention of campaign rules so far), this is Eldar and Dark Eldar 8.5.
It seems pretty obvious that GW is setting out to deliberately change things in the two elf books, so the idea that they won't touch certain things seems odd and weird.
It seem more likely to me that they made changes while making updates in the new book, not that they made multiple errors in the preview article.
For most of us we're hoping it's a mistake because otherwise that means that one of the few really good stratagems in the codex has changed from reroll all failed wounds in combat on Coven units for 2CP to +1 to wound in combat for Coven units for 2CP, which means it becomes a much worse version of Veterans of the Long War for twice the cost. That would be a really bad and uneccessary change.
Well, Torturer's Craft clearly is in the rules-mix somehow as one non-Prophets coven trait now gives a discount on the strat, which is in itself "new".
Also, why add the brackets explaining what the strat does in the first place? They name-drop plenty of rules in the article without ever telling or hinting at what these rules actually do.
I am super excited for the idea of pick-your-own-traits coming to every army.
My wife is getting into Drukhari and particularly likes Scourges, so we plan to look through the list together and figure out what would fit that unit.
I have been building an army of crab-themed Tyranids, but none of the hive fleets available to me really capture the 'feel' I'm going for (high durability, close combat focused).
And for my Renegade Guard, this'll be the ticket for properly representing them as zealous rabble, rather than shoehorning them into either Catachan (for the melee focus) or Valhallan (for the ignoring morale). Back in 4th Ed you could pick doctrines to augment your army in characterful ways, so this seems to be coming full circle.
I'm sure that the ability to further min-max is going to play merry hell on competitive balance. But as a non-competitive player, I'm looking forward to Your Dudes really becoming Your Dudes.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, Scourges don’t get Kabal/Cult/Coven traits unfortunately..
Well I can safely say that Scourges could get absolutely disguting to use with some traits. Like with Flayed Skull trait.
Um...How, exactly? +3" movement doesn't really matter since they deep strike and then immediately die 99% of the time, most of their guns aren't Rapid Fire besides Splinter Cannons, which would be nowhere near the best loadout even with RR 1s to hit, and ignore cover...kind of matters? But, just Ignore Cover in and of itself is a weak enough trait that in Codex: SM they gave them a second half of their power. And it's not like SMDevs and Havocs can't get Ignores Cover...why is it OP on scourges, which are basically the same thing but flimsier and deep striking?
The thing with Scourges is that they're heavy-weapon platforms that are based on speed, yet still suffer the normal penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons.
I will say once again that 7th edition Corsair Balestrike Bands were everything Scourges should have been.
catbarf wrote: I am super excited for the idea of pick-your-own-traits coming to every army.
My wife is getting into Drukhari and particularly likes Scourges, so we plan to look through the list together and figure out what would fit that unit.
I have been building an army of crab-themed Tyranids, but none of the hive fleets available to me really capture the 'feel' I'm going for (high durability, close combat focused).
And for my Renegade Guard, this'll be the ticket for properly representing them as zealous rabble, rather than shoehorning them into either Catachan (for the melee focus) or Valhallan (for the ignoring morale). Back in 4th Ed you could pick doctrines to augment your army in characterful ways, so this seems to be coming full circle.
I'm sure that the ability to further min-max is going to play merry hell on competitive balance. But as a non-competitive player, I'm looking forward to Your Dudes really becoming Your Dudes.
Is there something to suggest this pick-your-own-traits thing is coming to armies beyond loyalist Astartes and Eldar/Dark Eldar? I haven't been keeping a very close eye on things.
vipoid wrote: The thing with Scourges is that they're heavy-weapon platforms that are based on speed, yet still suffer the normal penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons.
I will say once again that 7th edition Corsair Balestrike Bands were everything Scourges should have been.
On the other hand Scourges have access to only 1 Heavy weapon, the Dark Lance, so thats not really such a big deal. Agreed about the Balestrike Bands though. Of the Obsessions the only one that would be any real benefit to them is Obsidian Rose's +6" range.
Sunny Side Up wrote:Well, Scourges don’t get Kabal/Cult/Coven traits unfortunately..
Oops. Knew there was something I was forgetting.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:Is there something to suggest this pick-your-own-traits thing is coming to armies beyond loyalist Astartes and Eldar/Dark Eldar? I haven't been keeping a very close eye on things.
Not really, but it would seem really weird for GW to only do that with Marines and the participants of the first Psychic Awakening book. I figure at this point it's a pretty safe bet that they'll be implementing the same system, or something like it, for each participant in the new sets. I could always be disappointed.
Burnage wrote: Aside from losing Disarming Strike, has Jain Zar changed at all? It seems bizarre that GW are hyping up all of the abilities that she... already had?
Nope. I just compared and she is exactly the same. Same stat line, same wargear with the same stats, same special rules.
Just lose Disarming Strike for the rule they showed off 3?? weeks ago.
Also is it me or did Drazhar win the combat round 3 but they just went "no wait actually Jain zar totally did a backflip and ninja killed him!!!!"??
For those who are wondering, I red somewhere there will no modification to Chaos Traits in Psychic Awakening Volume 2. Only things planned are Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics for each legion (except BL, DG, TS and renegade chapters like Flawless Host).
Well, it was nice for the renegades to have something for a little while before being put to the back of the bus again.
Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?
Burnage wrote: Aside from losing Disarming Strike, has Jain Zar changed at all? It seems bizarre that GW are hyping up all of the abilities that she... already had?
I would argue she was nerfed. At least against other characters, without Disarming strike, she stands no chance against current era of 3++ and damage 3 pwnhammerz.
Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?
No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place
I guess we could talk about "should" all day, though I see little point. They're both in the CSM codex. Nothing stopping anyone from using CSM models to make a loyalist list, though.
Burnage wrote: Aside from losing Disarming Strike, has Jain Zar changed at all? It seems bizarre that GW are hyping up all of the abilities that she... already had?
I would argue she was nerfed. At least against other characters, without Disarming strike, she stands no chance against current era of 3++ and damage 3 pwnhammerz.
It is a fight between invalids from begone era.
Yes, I'd agree she's been nerfed. Storm of Silence is massively inferior to the old Disarming Strike.
Also is it me or did Drazhar win the combat round 3 but they just went "no wait actually Jain zar totally did a backflip and ninja killed him!!!!"??
Yeah, I also got that impression. Unless the second time fighting from Drahzar was already accounted in the description of him doing 4 wounds. Otherwise they basically copped out and had him lose even though he would have had another set of attacks.
Well... Todays article is disappointing. I expected more changes to be made to Jain, or at least some kind of Invuln save etc.
Can't see the point of the "Duel" either, as it's pretty clear that whoever charges the other will win 99% of the time - just like with most characters when charging into their "optimum" targets.
Lots of hype for the new models, yet, as others have said, completely pointless as the model, game wise, hasn't changed.
That is an absolute trash statline for Jain. Unless she's clockin in at ~80 points she's never going to see play (and even then there will be faaaaaaaar better options).
Glad to see Drazhars ability has changed from +1 to hit to +1 to wound, this is far better as he gets to benefit from it and Incubi will definitely want that buff to wounding.
So disappointed to see them keep Phoenix Lords underwhelming. With a chance to create unit diversity in the Eldar codex...they instead chose to do nothing.
Sterling191 wrote: That is an absolute trash statline for Jain. Unless she's clockin in at ~80 points she's never going to see play (and even then there will be faaaaaaaar better options).
Yeah, I scoffed when I read her stats. Destroyer Lords have better stats. Higher toughness, higher strength, same number of attacks, same wounds. The only thing that it loses out on is WS and BS, but its 3+ rerolls 1, so almost 2+.
Looks like a big buff for Incubi if that is accurate. Lethal precision on the unit, not just the champion is great. With a +1 to wound on top, they are petty deadly killers getting 3D on 5s and wounding most things on 3s or 4s. They'll really do a number on primaris, but each wound will need to be rolled individually, which will be a pain with the numbers of attacks involved.
Sterling191 wrote: That is an absolute trash statline for Jain. Unless she's clockin in at ~80 points she's never going to see play (and even then there will be faaaaaaaar better options).
Yeah, I scoffed when I read her stats. Destroyer Lords have better stats. Higher toughness, higher strength, same number of attacks, same wounds. The only thing that it loses out on is WS and BS, but its 3+ rerolls 1, so almost 2+.
Further, she either lost her -1 to be hit in combat, or WHC fethed up again. Its the one ability on her existing datasheet they dont give a punch out image for.
Imateria wrote: Glad to see Drazhars ability has changed from +1 to hit to +1 to wound, this is far better as he gets to benefit from it and Incubi will definitely want that buff to wounding.
The article also implies that all incubi will have lethal precision. If so they are actually worth a punt. Drazhar hits like a ton of bricks, if he kept hatred eternal as a warlord trait the guy will mulch anything he charges.
Sterling191 wrote: That is an absolute trash statline for Jain. Unless she's clockin in at ~80 points she's never going to see play (and even then there will be faaaaaaaar better options).
Yeah, I scoffed when I read her stats. Destroyer Lords have better stats. Higher toughness, higher strength, same number of attacks, same wounds. The only thing that it loses out on is WS and BS, but its 3+ rerolls 1, so almost 2+.
Further, she either lost her -1 to be hit in combat, or WHC fethed up again. Its the one ability on her existing datasheet they dont give a punch out image for.
The article implies she still does, but not showing it was rather dumb I agree.
Drager wrote: Looks like a big buff for Incubi if that is accurate. Lethal precision on the unit, not just the champion is great. With a +1 to wound on top, they are petty deadly killers getting 3D on 5s and wounding most things on 3s or 4s. They'll really do a number on primaris, but each wound will need to be rolled individually, which will be a pain with the numbers of attacks involved.
Sounds like lethal precision is on an unmodified 6 not a 6+ otherwise they REALLY fudged that little duel because he would be hitting her with a lot more damage 4 strikes.
Kirasu wrote: So no updates to making her better than random SM captains. I dont understand how their effort level is so low for any book other than Marines.
Except now she doesn't have a prayer when fighting random marine captains, unlike before where she could go "nope, no D4 thunder hammer for you, sir! Now we fight, FOREVEEEEEEEEEEEEEER!"
To be fair we don't know either costs yet, or on the infantry units. I mean, she can have that new power cast on her for another +2" charge at which point her threat range is 8+d6+2d6+5" and the extra inch you just need to be within. So shes averaging 28" a turn with that power lol. No overwatch either. I'd say she is pretty critical depending on cost in an environment where things are overwatching on a 4+ rerolling everything.
Drazhar definitely hits WAY harder and more often lol but he's also very one dimensional.
Drager wrote: Looks like a big buff for Incubi if that is accurate. Lethal precision on the unit, not just the champion is great. With a +1 to wound on top, they are petty deadly killers getting 3D on 5s and wounding most things on 3s or 4s. They'll really do a number on primaris, but each wound will need to be rolled individually, which will be a pain with the numbers of attacks involved.
Sounds like lethal precision is on an unmodified 6 not a 6+ otherwise they REALLY fudged that little duel because he would be hitting her with a lot more damage 4 strikes.
Well in the Drazhar preview they do show the rule and it specifically says Unmodified 6s.
Elbows wrote: Jain Zar is slightly better than she was before. However, if she's still 125 points (with Iron Father being 110), then yes none of it makes sense.
True, but at the same time it is getting silly listening to people use that guy as a measure of whats fair. He's clearly broken and everything in the game shouldn't come down to meet him, he should go up in cost.
115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.
This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"
99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:
-You expend support to get her into combat
-she destroys most of a screening unit
-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.
Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.
She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.
115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.
This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"
99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:
-You expend support to get her into combat
-she destroys most of a screening unit
-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.
Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?
Elbows wrote: Jain Zar is slightly better than she was before. However, if she's still 125 points (with Iron Father being 110), then yes none of it makes sense.
She was 115, and in what way is she better since the only change is loosing Disarming Strike for the far more situational Storm of Silence?
115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.
This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"
99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:
-You expend support to get her into combat
-she destroys most of a screening unit
-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.
Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?
Kill the screen...before the psychic phase?
Is it possible to learn this power?
New Jain is not a skill piece. She's a timmy piece, for narrative games where footslogging melee units matter. She'll make as much actual competitive impact as the cloak of blades Solitaire build: none at all.
Unless she's costed so stupidly low that there's no reason not to throw her in. Obviously if she were like, 40 points, everyone would just use her as a throwaway because why not.
She had a role. Now she does not - she just has an ability that makes her marginally less laughable against horde units.But she's gone from a piece with a purpose (neutralizing pesky models with nasty melee weapons) to a piece without one.
115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.
This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"
99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:
-You expend support to get her into combat
-she destroys most of a screening unit
-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.
Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?
Kill the screen...before the psychic phase?
Is it possible to learn this power?
New Jain is not a skill piece. She's a timmy piece, for narrative games where footslogging melee units matter. She'll make as much actual competitive impact as the cloak of blades Solitaire build: none at all.
Unless she's costed so stupidly low that there's no reason not to throw her in. Obviously if she were like, 40 points, everyone would just use her as a throwaway because why not.
She had a role. Now she does not - she just has an ability that makes her marginally less laughable against horde units.But she's gone from a piece with a purpose (neutralizing pesky models with nasty melee weapons) to a piece without one.
Agreed, I don't think it would have been OP to allow her to have both abilities. She could pick which to use depending on the circumstance.
Disarming Strike was probably her most interesting and best power, this is all a little bland for me.
Drazhar sounds interesting though, a proper beat stick.
E - For you CSM players - Kikasstou also said not to expect legion traits on vehicles.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.
She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.
Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...
On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.
Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.
Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.
She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.
Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...
On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.
Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.
Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.
Maybe the pheonix lords get an exarch power. Would kinda make sense?
115ppm. They were 10pts off - and that is still absurdly high for her new incarnation given how sad her damage output is outside of stupid edge-case scenarios.
This is why I dislike her new Timmy power - everyones gonna go "BUT MUH ONE GAME SHE HAD 19 ATTACKS!"
99% of the time, if you take Jain, here's what happens:
-You expend support to get her into combat
-she destroys most of a screening unit
-Then she gets shot to death supremely easily, because they can just fall back and she's right out in the open. She kills less than half her value.
Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?
Kill the screen...before the psychic phase?
Is it possible to learn this power?
New Jain is not a skill piece. She's a timmy piece, for narrative games where footslogging melee units matter. She'll make as much actual competitive impact as the cloak of blades Solitaire build: none at all.
Unless she's costed so stupidly low that there's no reason not to throw her in. Obviously if she were like, 40 points, everyone would just use her as a throwaway because why not.
She had a role. Now she does not - she just has an ability that makes her marginally less laughable against horde units.But she's gone from a piece with a purpose (neutralizing pesky models with nasty melee weapons) to a piece without one.
Smite, and executioner do pretty good at punching holes through screens yes. Alternatively if you fail you can move her point blank prior to the shooting phase and with a 2d6+5" charge you have really good odds at hitting their lines anyway. You alternatively could not use her first turn, and instead remove the chaf. I am not saying she is a brainless model like Feirros, and I don't think that should be the defining metric of a good unit.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.
She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.
Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...
On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.
Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.
Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.
It's a narrative duel, it's not really worth reading into when the DE guy gave Jain first turn and from the sounds of it at least one of the players has never 40k'd before.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.
She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.
Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...
On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.
Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.
Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.
It's a narrative duel, it's not really worth reading into when the DE guy gave Jain first turn and from the sounds of it at least one of the players has never 40k'd before.
Oh i know it's a narrative duel, but, it's represented as round 1 being a curb stomp to Jain, round 2 to Draz and then round 3 Draz fluffs massively. When using the models and rules in an example aimed at being an honest interpretation of what can happen, you have to just go with the flow, even if it means the Phoenix Lord super character gets wrecked.
Red Corsair wrote: Alternatively you can kill the screen, quicken her through the gap and use that new 40mm base to tag all those clowns that need to be real close to that small aura buff. Is it a skill free maneuver? No, but why should it be?
Jain is p cool harassing unit, I played her, but the biggest thing was that enemy couldn't randomly smack her with any character with decent damage weapon. Now it's really scary to be around enemy characters even if they're support kind of type.
Also is it me or did Drazhar win the combat round 3 but they just went "no wait actually Jain zar totally did a backflip and ninja killed him!!!!"??
Yeah, I also got that impression. Unless the second time fighting from Drahzar was already accounted in the description of him doing 4 wounds. Otherwise they basically copped out and had him lose even though he would have had another set of attacks.
Or he flopped badly on the 2nd set of attacks. Never have had such a bad dice rolling?-) On monday I had game where I couldn't seem to roll 5+ at all.
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bullyboy wrote: Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.
She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.
Umm we are talking about this thing called "dice". There's no need to invent plot armour when we are talking about dice game. In dice game weird things happen. On saturday game of adeptus titanicus warlord titan fired at reaver titan with zero damage and somehow destroyed it. That just shouldn't happen. I don't even want to try to calculate odds of that one. First 6 attacks hitting on 4+, then he had 4+ save rerolling 1's and he needed to get total of 4 failures. And that was just the beginning. I needed to follow with lot more 6's to do what I did.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.
She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.
Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...
On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.
Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.
Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.
You play with averages rather than dice rolls? How you deal with decimals?
Average is average, there is also deviation. Jain has 4+ save against his attacks, basically an extra save, especially against 4 Damage, and she already survives. Not to mention she can kill Drazhar in-between 2 activations and fights first in 2d round.
Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?
No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place
No, because the CSM keeps trying to do too much that it isn't meant for, and it isn't meant for Renegades. No reason that any Renegade band suddenly gets a bunch of Daemon Engines and all the sudden lost their Whirlwinds and Assault Cannon Terminators. Oh and those Storm Shields the Terminators had don't work anymore either.
Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?
No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place
No, because the CSM keeps trying to do too much that it isn't meant for, and it isn't meant for Renegades. No reason that any Renegade band suddenly gets a bunch of Daemon Engines and all the sudden lost their Whirlwinds and Assault Cannon Terminators. Oh and those Storm Shields the Terminators had don't work anymore either.
No, Renegades should not be in the CSM codex.
"Codex CSM isn't meant for Renegades because it's not meant for renegades"?
No reason an Alaitoc force would have Eldred or Yriel. No reason a Wych Cult would have an Archon. But a chapter falling to Chaos having a Sorcerer or demon-worshiping leader/techmarine is (for some reason) completely impossible so clearly a chaos-worshiping Marine force isn't Chaos Marines?
Either way, maybe take it to general. No idea why that's being discussed in news and rumors during an eldar release.
Shadenuat wrote: Average is average, there is also deviation. Jain has 4+ save against his attacks, basically an extra save, especially against 4 Damage, and she already survives. Not to mention she can kill Drazhar in-between 2 activations and fights first in 2d round.
I have literally failed 16 4+ rollsat once. What happened in the article is hardly impossible.
People are looking at it in too complex light. It's just putting the two models fight against each other and roll a dice. Nothing more than that. No need to look for deeper meaning there when there isn't any.
So despite the giant laundry list of special rules attached to these two... meh? Not a lot to get excited about.
---
The 'duel' on the other hand is meaningless. Its essentially an empty field mathhammer exercise (the kind of thing people complain about not being like a real game of 40k), except without the math and anecdotes instead.
Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?
No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place
No, because the CSM keeps trying to do too much that it isn't meant for, and it isn't meant for Renegades. No reason that any Renegade band suddenly gets a bunch of Daemon Engines and all the sudden lost their Whirlwinds and Assault Cannon Terminators. Oh and those Storm Shields the Terminators had don't work anymore either.
No, Renegades should not be in the CSM codex.
"Codex CSM isn't meant for Renegades because it's not meant for renegades"?
No reason an Alaitoc force would have Eldred or Yriel. No reason a Wych Cult would have an Archon. But a chapter falling to Chaos having a Sorcerer or demon-worshiping leader/techmarine is (for some reason) completely impossible so clearly a chaos-worshiping Marine force isn't Chaos Marines?
Either way, maybe take it to general. No idea why that's being discussed in news and rumors during an eldar release.
It was in response to the rumour about chaos marine updates I psychic awakening 2 and that any renegades are now left with sigjifanctly less stuff than the legions in theory, simply for no reason.
If you're going to be blunt, it'd be more like "40K in a nutshell". There's never been a stunning or elegant or amazing ruleset applied to the game - it's always been about the models. So if you like the new models, that's something to get excited about I s'pose.
Given that today's article doesn't have anything about checking back tomorrow or later in the week, is this all we should expect in terms of rules previews? This is starting to feel very flimsy, especially for a release that got hyped up for over a month...
For those who are wondering, I red somewhere there will no modification to Chaos Traits in Psychic Awakening Volume 2. Only things planned are Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics for each legion (except BL, DG, TS and renegade chapters like Flawless Host).
Well, it was nice for the renegades to have something for a little while before being put to the back of the bus again.
Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?
No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place
No, because the CSM keeps trying to do too much that it isn't meant for, and it isn't meant for Renegades. No reason that any Renegade band suddenly gets a bunch of Daemon Engines and all the sudden lost their Whirlwinds and Assault Cannon Terminators. Oh and those Storm Shields the Terminators had don't work anymore either.
No, Renegades should not be in the CSM codex.
"Codex CSM isn't meant for Renegades because it's not meant for renegades"?
No reason an Alaitoc force would have Eldred or Yriel. No reason a Wych Cult would have an Archon. But a chapter falling to Chaos having a Sorcerer or demon-worshiping leader/techmarine is (for some reason) completely impossible so clearly a chaos-worshiping Marine force isn't Chaos Marines?
Either way, maybe take it to general. No idea why that's being discussed in news and rumors during an eldar release.
Missing Technology and units > Your Daemon Fantasy
Renegades needs to be covered in the standard Marine codex, full stop. I'll even make a thread for it.
Regarding today's preview, I can't help but think that this could have replaced the individual Drazhar and Jain Zar previews. Thus freeing up previews for actual content. You'd almost think there wasn't much content to preview...
This thought isn't helped by today's preview for Jain Zar, where there was so little to showcase that they had to resort to "previewing" abilities she already had.
That aside, I'll admit I'm not an Eldar player but even if I was I still doubt I'd be using Jain Zar. She has some things going for her - her weapon is decent, she ignores Overwatch, and she's actually fast. Not fast as in 'all of 1" faster than a Space marine' but actually fast (a rarity for a non-flying infantry model).
Unfortunately, unless they've left out some rules, she only has 4 attacks and no invulnerable save. Meh.
As for Drazhar, on the one hand he seems actually decent(ish) now. On the other hand, I don't want to have to take a 120pt special character just to make Incubi worth a damn, which definitely seems to be the direction we're headed.
Also, he seems best suited to Ynnari but last I checked they couldn't take any special characters other than their own. I wonder if this has changed?
Burnage wrote: Given that today's article doesn't have anything about checking back tomorrow or later in the week, is this all we should expect in terms of rules previews? This is starting to feel very flimsy, especially for a release that got hyped up for over a month...
No, no, clearly an expansion that has had to resort to literally previewing the same rules and models multiple times is just oozing with content.
vipoid wrote: Regarding today's preview, I can't help but think that this could have replaced the individual Drazhar and Jain Zar previews. Thus freeing up previews for actual content. You'd almost think there wasn't much content to preview...
This thought isn't helped by today's preview for Jain Zar, where there was so little to showcase that they had to resort to "previewing" abilities she already had.
That aside, I'll admit I'm not an Eldar player but even if I was I still doubt I'd be using Jain Zar. She has some things going for her - her weapon is decent, she ignores Overwatch, and she's actually fast. Not fast as in 'all of 1" faster than a Space marine' but actually fast (a rarity for a non-flying infantry model).
Unfortunately, unless they've left out some rules, she only has 4 attacks and no invulnerable save. Meh.
As for Drazhar, on the one hand he seems actually decent(ish) now. On the other hand, I don't want to have to take a 120pt special character just to make Incubi worth a damn, which definitely seems to be the direction we're headed.
Also, he seems best suited to Ynnari but last I checked they couldn't take any special characters other than their own. I wonder if this has changed?
Burnage wrote: Given that today's article doesn't have anything about checking back tomorrow or later in the week, is this all we should expect in terms of rules previews? This is starting to feel very flimsy, especially for a release that got hyped up for over a month...
No, no, clearly an expansion that has had to resort to literally previewing the same rules and models multiple times is just oozing with content.
Yeah they were trying very hard to hype up this minor release. Did 2 characters and 2 units really need almost two months of teasers and previews?
No doubt they have other aspect and DE designs tucked away. But I guess a big release is less lucrative than a drip-feed of boxes and events over a couple of years...
DivineVisitor wrote: I take it Jain Zar and Drazhar won't be getting sold separately? Back to eBay I guess.
If you can hold your breath for 3-6+ months. GW is very inconsistent with this stuff...
And yeah, I bet the focus is going to shift over to hyping up the Ossiarch Bonereapers. They've got to fit those and Imperial Fists + Salamanders into this month and we're already 1/3rd of the way through the month, so... yeah. Expect a lot of really rushed hype.
Yep. Wrath and Rapture (December) had the new stuff in March for Khorne and April for Slaanesh, if the models came out the same time as the AoS battletomes.
I'd expect a similar outcome for space elfs.
Yeah they were trying very hard to hype up this minor release. Did 2 characters and 2 units really need almost two months of teasers and previews?
No doubt they have other aspect and DE designs tucked away. But I guess a big release is less lucrative than a drip-feed of boxes and events over a couple of years...
The truly sad thing is the models don't even matter that much. They're aren't great choices now, and don't look to be an more amazing once the book comes out- they'll still be over shadowed internally and externally.
The big thing will be the new traits and strategems and if new crazy nonsense was essentially overlooked in the margin notes.
As models they basically improved by... no longer being finecast and... presumably greater availability on actual shelves.
And I guess giant honking base decorations if you're into that sort of thing.
useally you get the multipart kit alone within 6 months or less, Although Infiltrators, assuming they're out in 2 weeks or so would mean a 9 month turn around, but Marines are in an odd place thanks to the supplements
BrianDavion wrote: useally you get the multipart kit alone within 6 months or less, Although Infiltrators, assuming they're out in 2 weeks or so would mean a 9 month turn around, but Marines are in an odd place thanks to the supplements
Marines are in an odd place because they are drowning in new releases and content. So much so that even GW can’t keep up. Must be tough having so many new releases that sometimes you have to wait longer than normal for an individual unit release.
Voss has hit the nail on the head above - now we see what rules, stratagems and this psychic tree have in store. There is little noise from FLG and the like which leads me to believe that rules-wise this won’t compete in anyway with the new Marines, but we’ll see.
So, something that made me a little more disappointed, was listening to the FLG Signals stream last night. From what was said, the general indication is that there will be no points changes in this box set or the PA book.
point changes are for CA19, why would they do anything other than narrative for this very narrative event? They changed rules and stats for JZ & drazhar.
not everything revolves around what costs what in screw over your opponent lists.
What the hell is GWs insistence on not giving Phoenix lords invulnerable saves? It's like their refusal to increase catapult ranges.
Marines can field generic commanders with 2+/3++, hell even Eldar themselves have an invulnerable save on ALL their HQ choices, except when it comes to Phoenix lords.
Hellebore wrote: What the hell is GWs insistence on not giving Phoenix lords invulnerable saves? It's like their refusal to increase catapult ranges.
Marines can field generic commanders with 2+/3++, hell even Eldar themselves have an invulnerable save on ALL their HQ choices, except when it comes to Phoenix lords.
WTF
It might be an option to pick from the Aspect list for Jain Zar? I'm assuming she can pick from the list, given she's the Phoenix Lord and all.
But yea, it's insane, the same way no Ork HQ has an invulnerable without taking a relic or a KFF that only works against ranged attacks.
Phoenix lords seem like they should be a lot more powerful than they actually are on the tabletop. Not primarch-level sure, but at least better than some random space marine captain, right?
I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously. I don't think announcing any kind of winner before a narrative campaign between the two is exactly helpful.
"Yeah, drazhar stomped Jain zar 3-0, can you get a win for the phoenix lord?"
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!" GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books" Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
Not gonna lie, that point would be valid in most other contexts, in this case you're paying through the nose for 12 new models and a bunch of models most people don't want, discount or none.
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.
slave.entity wrote: Phoenix lords seem like they should be a lot more powerful than they actually are on the tabletop. Not primarch-level sure, but at least better than some random space marine captain, right?
yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was
Cronch wrote: yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was
Even ignoring the fluff, Jain Zar as a little missile to take out small units or Support characters isn’t half as good as, say, an Eversor, who is a third cheaper and comes with much better Strat support, better survivability, infinitely better charge from reserves, etc...
Cronch wrote: yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was
Zip up man, your bias is showing.
He's kind of right though? You would think that a psychically attuned individual with tens of thousands of years of combat experience would be a better fighter than some guy who probably only been fighting for like, a couple of hundred years.
Should Jain Zar or Karandras be better at swinging a sharp stick than Russ?
I'm sure they will be...
...in the Eldar codex, as is tradition in those chainsword measuring lore contests.
As an aside, how much MORE can you learn about combat after a hundred years of practice? Seriously, even ignoring the whole Eldar decline thing, the Lords were paragons of their Path during their first life. How much can a random Exarch add to that pot?
Cronch wrote: yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was
Zip up man, your bias is showing.
He's kind of right though? You would think that a psychically attuned individual with tens of thousands of years of combat experience would be a better fighter than some guy who probably only been fighting for like, a couple of hundred years.
Only if you think thousands of years of combat experience by pansy elves is worth anything.
To me that's actually a detriment. They're already handicapped by being stinkin' space elves. Now they have thousands of years of bad habits ingrained in them psychically? Blimey, they're doomed.
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.
100% this.
Would you rather a) buy this box set at £140 or, b) wait a few months and buy 10 Banshees and Jain-Zar for ~£75?
Waiting seems like a no brainer to me, especially from a monetary pov. Hell, for ~£127.50 you can get a Falcon, Vyper, 10 Banshees and Jain Zar when paying current GW online prices. (It’s actually £10 cheaper if you expect Jain to remain £15 rather than the £25 I’ve used.)
If you’re someone that needs/wants the new models instantly for the sake of it, then, sure, go ahead and buy them. But as someone that generally has to restrict my purchases to things I’m going to use and need, there is no way that this box set offers me anything close to a discount for a viable set of models.
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.
100% this.
Would you rather a) buy this box set at £140 or, b) wait a few months and buy 10 Banshees and Jain-Zar for ~£75?
Waiting seems like a no brainer to me, especially from a monetary pov. Hell, for ~£127.50 you can get a Falcon, Vyper, 10 Banshees and Jain Zar when paying current GW online prices. (It’s actually £10 cheaper if you expect Jain to remain £15 rather than the £25 I’ve used.)
If you’re someone that needs/wants the new models instantly for the sake of it, then, sure, go ahead and buy them. But as someone that generally has to restrict my purchases to things I’m going to use and need, there is no way that this box set offers me anything close to a discount for a viable set of models.
So the Drukhari part of the set is worth nothing? That calculation is just wrong.
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.
100% this.
Would you rather a) buy this box set at £140 or, b) wait a few months and buy 10 Banshees and Jain-Zar for ~£75?
Waiting seems like a no brainer to me, especially from a monetary pov. Hell, for ~£127.50 you can get a Falcon, Vyper, 10 Banshees and Jain Zar when paying current GW online prices. (It’s actually £10 cheaper if you expect Jain to remain £15 rather than the £25 I’ve used.)
If you’re someone that needs/wants the new models instantly for the sake of it, then, sure, go ahead and buy them. But as someone that generally has to restrict my purchases to things I’m going to use and need, there is no way that this box set offers me anything close to a discount for a viable set of models.
So the Drukhari part of the set is worth nothing? That calculation is just wrong.
To me, the Drukhari side of things is worthless yes, as I’ll never use it and likely leave it sat on the sprue in the box, gathering dust. The point is not about whether or not part of the box is “worthless”, but, whether or not you feel like you are getting true value for money.
It’s a question of what do you want this box for. If you want it because it gives you the new models straight away, then go for it. Likewise if you want it for the start of a Craftworld, Drukhari and/or Ynnari force (though I’m guessing that wouldn’t work too well from a fluff pov as they are trying to kill each other in this campaign…)
But, if you only want it for the new models, then, waiting and buying them will save you a significant amount of cash and you’d be able to get more. Hell, you can get Jain and 30 Banshees currently for £165. You’re better off doing that if you want to run Banshees, than to buy this box and only get 5, because as others have said, 5 is completely pointless.
Likewise, if you only want the Craftworlds stuff and will sell the Drukhari stuff, then, I guess you have to weigh up the options of how much you think you’ll be able to sell the models for in what could be a relatively flooded market. Sure you’ll save some money overall after selling half the box, but, whether it’ll be enough after all the hassle and additional costs, that’ll be 100% up to the person going down that route.
If you need and want all the models in this box, then it is a good deal. If you only want the new models and for some reason can’t wait for them to be released individually, then it is a good deal.
However, if you only want the new models and there is no reason why you can’t wait a few months, then I’d consider you insane for considering to buy this (or have too much spare cash).
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
I will gladly pay full price for 10 banshees once they are released in their own boxes. The big expencive box with relative low gaming value is just frustrating.
100% this.
Would you rather a) buy this box set at £140 or, b) wait a few months and buy 10 Banshees and Jain-Zar for ~£75?
Waiting seems like a no brainer to me, especially from a monetary pov. Hell, for ~£127.50 you can get a Falcon, Vyper, 10 Banshees and Jain Zar when paying current GW online prices. (It’s actually £10 cheaper if you expect Jain to remain £15 rather than the £25 I’ve used.)
If you’re someone that needs/wants the new models instantly for the sake of it, then, sure, go ahead and buy them. But as someone that generally has to restrict my purchases to things I’m going to use and need, there is no way that this box set offers me anything close to a discount for a viable set of models.
So the Drukhari part of the set is worth nothing? That calculation is just wrong.
Yes to an elder player the Drukhari part of the set is worthless, it mostly has no resale value either which is why GW put them in there in the 1st place.
To be brutally honest even the elder half is pretty worthless to an elder player 5 new models that are pointless as a unit of 5 and 1 sub par new/old hq are underwhelming and the rest is models older than most players that barely fit together and are pretty crap in game.
kingheff wrote: I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously.
And here I was thinking it was a literal representation of the type of rigorous play-testing GW does.
To be fair it's more thorough than some of the experts on dakka who's research seems to involve logging on to mathhammer and freaking about how op or worthless any given unit is, at least they moved a couple of models around.
Not implying this is you of course.
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
It's the precedence that a new £140 box represents, a lot of us can scrimp and save to get £100 together but £140 is taking the and should not become the new norm and if we accept it it will.
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
It's the precedence that a new £140 box represents, a lot of us can scrimp and save to get £100 together but £140 is taking the and should not become the new norm and if we accept it it will.
It's the two special characters pushing it up. Now, whether they were included to justify a premeditated price hike or not is another story. Ultimately it is what it is. I would ask that people voice their actual complaints though. If you are bothered that you can't get Jain Zar outside of an expensive box set at the moment, then moan about that. Complaining about the price of a discounted box is rather asinine.
kingheff wrote: I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously.
And here I was thinking it was a literal representation of the type of rigorous play-testing GW does.
To be fair it's more thorough than some of the experts on dakka who's research seems to involve logging on to mathhammer and freaking about how op or worthless any given unit is, at least they moved a couple of models around.
Not implying this is you of course.
The mathhammer figures I posted are simply what will the average result of several hundred rounds in the duel will give you. I, and everyone else (hopefully), can fully accept that there will be extremes on both sides of the averages. Maybe the results of the duel were honest and did happen, all we can do is either take it at face value or come to our own conclusions based on reasonable expectation.
Yes they moved 2 models 12”s towards each other and made the 1-4” charge once and the 5” charge twice, but, it’s hardly a “real world” test to showcase their “power” on the tabletop.
At the end of the day, it’s all down to the dice. For every single time Jain instantly kills Drazhar there will be significantly more times where she does not. This does not matter in normal games, but, it has to be considered when playing competitive games (but not to the exclusion of everything else). On the flip side, Drazhar is going to kill Jain-Zar in one round, something like 3 times as often on the turn he charges and has a better chance of winning over 2 rounds (even fighting last both times) than Jain has of winning.
His Master's Voice wrote: Should Jain Zar or Karandras be better at swinging a sharp stick than Russ?
I'm sure they will be...
...in the Eldar codex, as is tradition in those chainsword measuring lore contests.
As an aside, how much MORE can you learn about combat after a hundred years of practice? Seriously, even ignoring the whole Eldar decline thing, the Lords were paragons of their Path during their first life. How much can a random Exarch add to that pot?
Experience against new types of foe.
Consider Tyranids and how quickly they evolve. Consider Orks, and how utterly barmy they are. The Imperium fields lots of different armed forces - and fighting Astra Militarum Regiment A does not mean you're equipped to tackle Astra Militarum Regiment B. Primaris are something new, and tougher than previous Marines.
When someone new dons the Phoenix Armour, all that knowledge isn't so much passed on - as simply known. It's not studying a book or a pictcast etc. It's just there - part of you. That's pretty handy!
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's also other, secondary skills.
The Phoenix Lords started on the Path of the Warrior. So they've likely never studied anything else with such commitment.
Add in one that followed say, Path of the Sculptor or Builder? Phoenix Lord is now better versed in spotting structural weakpoints.
Path of Xenobiology? Where best to place one's blows.
All sorts of experiences are added in, and in some small way help to make them a better warrior.
Consider. We take a combat veteran. They're very, very good at their job. We then grant them the lifetime knowledge of a retiring psychologist. Your highly skilled warrior now has a better idea of how to break the enemy's spirit - making victory even easier.
Loads of seemingly innocuous stuff can help a fighter to improve.
kingheff wrote: I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously.
And here I was thinking it was a literal representation of the type of rigorous play-testing GW does.
To be fair it's more thorough than some of the experts on dakka who's research seems to involve logging on to mathhammer and freaking about how op or worthless any given unit is, at least they moved a couple of models around.
Not implying this is you of course.
The mathhammer figures I posted are simply what will the average result of several hundred rounds in the duel will give you. I, and everyone else (hopefully), can fully accept that there will be extremes on both sides of the averages. Maybe the results of the duel were honest and did happen, all we can do is either take it at face value or come to our own conclusions based on reasonable expectation.
Yes they moved 2 models 12”s towards each other and made the 1-4” charge once and the 5” charge twice, but, it’s hardly a “real world” test to showcase their “power” on the tabletop.
At the end of the day, it’s all down to the dice. For every single time Jain instantly kills Drazhar there will be significantly more times where she does not. This does not matter in normal games, but, it has to be considered when playing competitive games (but not to the exclusion of everything else). On the flip side, Drazhar is going to kill Jain-Zar in one round, something like 3 times as often on the turn he charges and has a better chance of winning over 2 rounds (even fighting last both times) than Jain has of winning.
Sorry, didn't mean you either! I haven't read all the posts and certainly wasn't responding to yours.
But I have no doubt that drazhar will win that fight more often than not.
kingheff wrote: I think it's safe to say their best of three duel was not meant to be taken too seriously.
And here I was thinking it was a literal representation of the type of rigorous play-testing GW does.
To be fair it's more thorough than some of the experts on dakka who's research seems to involve logging on to mathhammer and freaking about how op or worthless any given unit is, at least they moved a couple of models around.
Not implying this is you of course.
The mathhammer figures I posted are simply what will the average result of several hundred rounds in the duel will give you. I, and everyone else (hopefully), can fully accept that there will be extremes on both sides of the averages. Maybe the results of the duel were honest and did happen, all we can do is either take it at face value or come to our own conclusions based on reasonable expectation.
Yes they moved 2 models 12”s towards each other and made the 1-4” charge once and the 5” charge twice, but, it’s hardly a “real world” test to showcase their “power” on the tabletop.
At the end of the day, it’s all down to the dice. For every single time Jain instantly kills Drazhar there will be significantly more times where she does not. This does not matter in normal games, but, it has to be considered when playing competitive games (but not to the exclusion of everything else). On the flip side, Drazhar is going to kill Jain-Zar in one round, something like 3 times as often on the turn he charges and has a better chance of winning over 2 rounds (even fighting last both times) than Jain has of winning.
Sorry, didn't mean you either! I haven't read all the posts and certainly wasn't responding to yours.
But I have no doubt that drazhar will win that fight more often than not.
No worries! I think my post was the main one on the past few pages about the duel mathammer result. Didn’t take it as an attack either, I just wanted to further expand on my reasoning and use of the math
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
30% off on 100% worthless units no one has used in 10 years is still a 70% loss. Its the typical fallacy people apply to "sales" of something you never needed to begin with.
We should get some online reviews tomorrow I expect that will shed more light on the content. I haven't seen anything yet, as an Eldar player, that gets me excited for the new models. The Phoenix Rising book? For sure, but I don't get these books (vigilus etc) for unit rules, I get them for the fluff, missions, narrative games etc.
I would have picked up the box if the pricepoint was reasonable and it didn't include mostly worthless units (I have 2 falcons and 3 Vypers on sprues that I got for extremely cheap a few years ago), plus the hellions which are simply trash. I don't mind the venom or Scourges but it still puts the box on a no-buy list. I want jain Zar and the banshees, but I'm content to wait rather than pay so much for what I don't need, or in any likelihood, will ever need.
DivineVisitor wrote: I take it Jain Zar and Drazhar won't be getting sold separately? Back to eBay I guess.
Initially no, later you can bet yes.
Exactly. Just exercise a little bit of patience
Patience? It could be ages before they are sold separately. Nah, think I'll just buy the the only two models I want from an expensive box set via eBay.
If the box set had just the Banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi and Drazhar then I would go for it.
DivineVisitor wrote: I take it Jain Zar and Drazhar won't be getting sold separately? Back to eBay I guess.
Initially no, later you can bet yes.
Exactly. Just exercise a little bit of patience
Patience? It could be ages before they are sold separately. Nah, think I'll just buy the the only two models I want from an expensive box set via eBay.
If the box set had just the Banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi and Drazhar then I would go for it.
Be prepared to be scalped slightly for the pleasure of buying it early via Ebay.
His Master's Voice wrote: Should Jain Zar or Karandras be better at swinging a sharp stick than Russ?
I'm sure they will be...
...in the Eldar codex, as is tradition in those chainsword measuring lore contests.
As an aside, how much MORE can you learn about combat after a hundred years of practice? Seriously, even ignoring the whole Eldar decline thing, the Lords were paragons of their Path during their first life. How much can a random Exarch add to that pot?
Generally you decline with age after a certain point . Also, there's a saying about too many cooks. It's hilarious to think of the phoenix lords as schizophrenic lunatics who's internal voices are constantly arguing over which strike to apply next in combat
Cronch wrote: yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was
Zip up man, your bias is showing.
He's kind of right though? You would think that a psychically attuned individual with tens of thousands of years of combat experience would be a better fighter than some guy who probably only been fighting for like, a couple of hundred years.
It's not just about experience though, sure the Phoenix Lords are powerful but they aren't and shouldn't really be on Primarch level, Primarchs are practically demi-gods grown from the seed of The Emperor. Only the Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons and C'tan should be hanging with them.
Phoneix Lords should be around Chapter Master+ level.
Motograter wrote: Haven't looked through this whole thread but having seen the supposed price it's mental. GW have list the plot
Players: "Prices too high, gives us discount!"
GW: "Here's 30% off plus free books"
Players: "Still too high!"
Guess 100% discount is needed to satisfy some
Not even close to a fair comparison though. More like.
*Longtime consumer enters AutoZone in search of muffler because he has heard of discounts.*
Consumer: "Hey can I get a new muffler, mine is garbage"
Sale Rep: "Sure we are having a sale on a new car that has one of those!"
Consumer: "I just need the muffler, can I just buy one at normal price?"
Sales Rep: "Not now!"
Consumer: "When?"
Sales Rep: "I can't tell you that, just be sure the come back and check often!"
Consumer "Go Yourself!"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote: Ah, so demi-gods can only be matched by actual gods of other races, I see. Man, GW should just delete Xenos since they can't compete with Humanity
I am not sure you understand what the word Avatar means. All those examples are not actual gods.
Cronch wrote: yeah, immortal entities that consume wisdom, experience and essence of each consecutive wearer of the armor are absolutely not on par with a bunch of genetic freaks cooked up by an incompetent idiot who doomed humanity with how bad of a father he was
Zip up man, your bias is showing.
He's kind of right though? You would think that a psychically attuned individual with tens of thousands of years of combat experience would be a better fighter than some guy who probably only been fighting for like, a couple of hundred years.
It's not just about experience though, sure the Phoenix Lords are powerful but they aren't and shouldn't really be on Primarch level, Primarchs are practically demi-gods grown from the seed of The Emperor. Only the Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons and C'tan should be hanging with them.
Phoneix Lords should be around Chapter Master+ level.
Sure, it's not just about experience. Phoenix Lords are practically demi-gods, unkillable spirits ascended through the forge of battle to be perfect weapons. The Primarchs are the spawn of a demi-god and are close to being able to claim that title in their own right so they should just about be capable of getting to phoenix lord level, eventually, if they work hard. They are still human at base, though and so lacking in the curse/gift of focus that the Eldar Phoenix lords have.
GW Have a lot of love for the marines and have been bigging up the Primarchs for ages, but its perfectly reasonable to have a PL on their level.
I am not sure you understand what the word Avatar means. All those examples are not actual gods.
According to normal, real-world definition, an avatar is physical representation or incarnation of a god. Not a demi-god, not a product of god, a god encased in physical shell. So avatar of Khaine, by that definition, should be more powerful than anything short of actual warp deity like chaos gods.
I am not sure you understand what the word Avatar means. All those examples are not actual gods.
According to normal, real-world definition, an avatar is physical representation or incarnation of a god. Not a demi-god, not a product of god, a god encased in physical shell. So avatar of Khaine, by that definition, should be more powerful than anything short of actual warp deity like chaos gods.
Sure that makes sense if you have no understanding of the what the Avatar of Khaine is. It's not the avatar of a single god, it's a dead god that was shattered into many smaller less powerful pieces. The Primarchs *are* a result of the chaos gods. In game they can't be unstoppable, but generally speaking they were the strongest beings in the mortal universe next to the Emperor. Phoenix Lords are extremely powerful as well and aren't really entirely living.
Bla even normal captain on bike is better than phoenix lord, faster, toughter, better weapon choices can get 3++..
It`s funny how GW give marines broken rules regardless of them having model or not and are unwilling to give something extra to the xenos even on new release.
and should not become the new norm and if we accept it it will.
Yourself!"