Not even close to a fair comparison though. More like.
*Longtime consumer enters AutoZone in search of muffler because he has heard of discounts.*
Consumer: "Hey can I get a new muffler, mine is garbage"
Sale Rep: "Sure we are having a sale on a new car that has one of those!"
Consumer: "I just need the muffler, can I just buy one at normal price?"
Sales Rep: "Not now!"
Consumer: "When?"
Sales Rep: "I can't tell you that, just be sure the come back and check often!"
Consumer "Go Yourself!"
This. It's strange that people are acting like this is a great deal, when it's clearly no different than any other anti-consumer bundling scheme.
You want that prestige TV channel? We'll just bundle it with these useless channels so you pay a premium!
Today's preview isn't exactly filling me with optimism. They're really having to stretch things out if they're trying to pass off just showing us Jain Zar's model again as an amazing advertisement.
Marin wrote: Bla even normal captain on bike is better than phoenix lord, faster, toughter, better weapon choices can get 3++..
It`s funny how GW give marines broken rules regardless of them having model or not and are unwilling to give something extra to the xenos even on new release.
Captains on bikes have existed as long as the phoenix lords pretty much, and until the full rules are shown it's unclear how broken Eldar will or will not be. We can categorically say they are giving Eldar extra stuff, but surely it's better they hit the average power level rather than being "OMG so OP" on day 1, just because faction X was preceived that way?
The seven matching "Ynnari" heads...or...helmetless Banshees is definitely strange/weird/dumb.
RE: Phoenix Lords
We've discussed it several times on Dakka. The general consensus is they're simply not good, notably due to being frail (the 2+ save with no invuln for 5/6 and no FNP for 5/6 simply means they don't last...at all...particularly when they mostly need to get close, the one place where Characters may be targeted).
I did a comparison image a couple weeks back (I'll try to find it) where I compared the 175 point Asurmen to the 110 point Ironfather guy...and the difference was laughable.
Not even close to a fair comparison though. More like.
*Longtime consumer enters AutoZone in search of muffler because he has heard of discounts.*
Consumer: "Hey can I get a new muffler, mine is garbage"
Sale Rep: "Sure we are having a sale on a new car that has one of those!"
Consumer: "I just need the muffler, can I just buy one at normal price?"
Sales Rep: "Not now!"
Consumer: "When?"
Sales Rep: "I can't tell you that, just be sure the come back and check often!"
Consumer "Go Yourself!"
This. It's strange that people are acting like this is a great deal, when it's clearly no different than any other anti-consumer bundling scheme.
You want that prestige TV channel? We'll just bundle it with these useless channels so you pay a premium!
Yeah, this delayed release for an individual kit is crap and needs to die fast.
They did it for the canoptek cryptek, they did it for a couple of those ork buggies and both times was bs.
Also is it me or did Drazhar win the combat round 3 but they just went "no wait actually Jain zar totally did a backflip and ninja killed him!!!!"??
Yeah, I also got that impression. Unless the second time fighting from Drahzar was already accounted in the description of him doing 4 wounds. Otherwise they basically copped out and had him lose even though he would have had another set of attacks.
Or he flopped badly on the 2nd set of attacks. Never have had such a bad dice rolling?-) On monday I had game where I couldn't seem to roll 5+ at all.
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bullyboy wrote: Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.
She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.
Umm we are talking about this thing called "dice". There's no need to invent plot armour when we are talking about dice game. In dice game weird things happen. On saturday game of adeptus titanicus warlord titan fired at reaver titan with zero damage and somehow destroyed it. That just shouldn't happen. I don't even want to try to calculate odds of that one. First 6 attacks hitting on 4+, then he had 4+ save rerolling 1's and he needed to get total of 4 failures. And that was just the beginning. I needed to follow with lot more 6's to do what I did.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, for Jain Zar to win that contest they have to have omitted another ability that allowed her to finish of Drazhar, since he got to attack again. I can't imagine they just threw a plot armour curveball in there just for the narrative.
She certainly needs something else. Maybe instead of disarming strike she has ability to deflect wounds on to attacker with save of a 6? That would have taken his last wound.
Yeh i went back and did some quick mathammer...
On average, even with 1 round of shooting and fighting twice... Jain doesn't beat Drahzar - let alone killing him in one round of combat.
Drahzar kills Jain on average when fighting twice after charging.
Something must be missing from the Eldar side of things. Might be some form of Exarch power(s), because otherwise that duel is just shockingly not representative.
You play with averages rather than dice rolls? How you deal with decimals?
You deal with decimals by leaving them decimals, that's how statistical analysis of dice rolls work. The average result of a D6 roll is 3.5. If you roll a million D6, none of them will show a 3.5 on their face, but the average result obtained will be 3.5
Sotahullu wrote: Well I don't mind for bareheads (warpaints!) but why 7 heads that look almost the same?
Maybe its for vehicle crew?
Like, you get 5 banshees and 2 vehicles in the kit, right? So maybe 5 of the heads are for banshees and the remaining 2 go on vehicles?
So, wait, is "Howling Banshees Through the Ages" seriously today's preview?
If so, good lord. They're not even scraping the bottom of the barrel anymore. They've tunnelled right through the bottom of the barrel and have created an entire sub-basement to scrape from.
I mean, the previews have literally been:
Banshees (initial announcement)
Banshees again
incubi
Jain Zar
Drazhar
The box for the above
Inside the box for the above
Some actual rules
Drazhar and Jain Zar again
Banshees and Jain Zar again
Boy, maybe tomorrow we'll be treated to a preview of the assembly-instructions for Jain Zar.
Lastly, I note that they couldn't even be arsed using a different pictures for Jain Zar or Drazhar. It's just the same picture for both, reprinted in every preview. That's a whole new level of laziness.
If the box set had just the Banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi and Drazhar then I would go for it.
This right here. A box set of Jain + 10 Banshess and Draz + 10 Incubi would sell well at little to no discount vs separate retail, because finding splits partners or eBay customers would be easy. Everybody wins.
This box, while it operates somewhere in the 30-35% discount range, has a bunch of stuff no one really wants, so the discount isn't even sufficient to attract interest. When your Eldar players (both flavors) are taking hard passes on 30% discount and highly anticipated models to wait for retail, you've fethed up (GW).
Shadenuat wrote: That's not how Eldar sprues work man. Vehicles have heads on theirs by default.
Drukhari would beg to differ. Wracks came with vehicle crew parts.
They come with vehicle crew arms. You can choose to take one of your 5 squad members from the minimum squad size 5 unit and you can choose to have him be a crewman of a vehicle with no gameplay impact.
then you can choose to buy another 40$ wrack kit to be able to field the unit, which is going to be terrible because Wracks unlock their special weapons at 5-man and 10-man, so if you're stuck with 9 you're boned.
vipoid wrote: So, wait, is "Howling Banshees Through the Ages" seriously today's preview?
If so, good lord. They're not even scraping the bottom of the barrel anymore. They've tunnelled right through the bottom of the barrel and have created an entire sub-basement to scrape from.
I mean, the previews have literally been:
Banshees (initial announcement)
Banshees again
incubi
Jain Zar
Drazhar
The box for the above
Inside the box for the above
Some actual rules
Drazhar and Jain Zar again
Banshees and Jain Zar again
Boy, maybe tomorrow we'll be treated to a preview of the assembly-instructions for Jain Zar.
Lastly, I note that they couldn't even be arsed using a different pictures for Jain Zar or Drazhar. It's just the same picture for both, reprinted in every preview. That's a whole new level of laziness.
And they even left out pics of the classic exarchs!
Burnage wrote: Today's preview isn't exactly filling me with optimism. They're really having to stretch things out if they're trying to pass off just showing us Jain Zar's model again as an amazing advertisement.
Why was this given over a month of hype?
I am honestly fine with this, folks are way too eager for the next release. My God, I remember when they told people nothing and we got a faction release per year, sometimes without a new kit. Or when AOS and 40k alternated. Now they just keep pouring the crap on.
Shadenuat wrote: That's not how Eldar sprues work man. Vehicles have heads on theirs by default.
Drukhari would beg to differ. Wracks came with vehicle crew parts.
They come with vehicle crew arms. You can choose to take one of your 5 squad members from the minimum squad size 5 unit and you can choose to have him be a crewman of a vehicle with no gameplay impact.
then you can choose to buy another 40$ wrack kit to be able to field the unit, which is going to be terrible because Wracks unlock their special weapons at 5-man and 10-man, so if you're stuck with 9 you're boned.
To be fair you can make a venom pilot without sacrificing a model, it's the raider crew swap that's an issue.
Bizarre statement. I can't remember one year in the last 30 when they released something for just a single faction in a year.
The thing here is, people just want to move on to real information. They're either going to buy the horrible box, or they're not. More articles on it isn't going to sell it to anyone, and thats if they're even vaguely interested in these CC units.
At some point this pittance of eldar will get out of the way, the marine release will finally finish, Sisters will come out, and there will finally be something to talk about that isn't pure regurgitation.
Shadenuat wrote: That's not how Eldar sprues work man. Vehicles have heads on theirs by default.
Drukhari would beg to differ. Wracks came with vehicle crew parts.
They come with vehicle crew arms. You can choose to take one of your 5 squad members from the minimum squad size 5 unit and you can choose to have him be a crewman of a vehicle with no gameplay impact.
then you can choose to buy another 40$ wrack kit to be able to field the unit, which is going to be terrible because Wracks unlock their special weapons at 5-man and 10-man, so if you're stuck with 9 you're boned.
You fool.
You are meant to buy 5 kits to field 20 and then 5 vehicles to put one from each back on it.
Obviously..
Shadenuat wrote: That's not how Eldar sprues work man. Vehicles have heads on theirs by default.
Drukhari would beg to differ. Wracks came with vehicle crew parts.
They come with vehicle crew arms. You can choose to take one of your 5 squad members from the minimum squad size 5 unit and you can choose to have him be a crewman of a vehicle with no gameplay impact.
then you can choose to buy another 40$ wrack kit to be able to field the unit, which is going to be terrible because Wracks unlock their special weapons at 5-man and 10-man, so if you're stuck with 9 you're boned.
You fool.
You are meant to buy 5 kits to field 20 and then 5 vehicles to put one from each back on it.
Obviously..
Voss wrote: Yep. Wrath and Rapture (December) had the new stuff in March for Khorne and April for Slaanesh, if the models came out the same time as the AoS battletomes.
I'd expect a similar outcome for space elfs.
Looncurse came out in May, after the Gloomspite Gitz battletome. The Sylvaneth battletome came out in July. It's now nearing mid-October and we still don't have the Loonboos on Giant Cave Squig or Arch Revenant released outside of what was a very limited release box set.
Likewise, Phoenix Lords should wipe the floor with normal marine Calgar.
[troll]However, Primaris Calgar should wipe the floor with them, of course!![/troll]
I don't care what mary sue my miniatures need or have to butcher to be worthy, I just want them to be worthy of inclusion into the army because of some unique role they can fill well. Jain Zar is actually not bad as a pocket untargetable unit of Banshees goes, with Disarm she really was a swiss knife of rules. Giving her invul as a checkmark (because with 2+, a 5++ can be situational) and +1A would be enough for me. And extra wound would be amazing-tier.
As is, I expected nothing, and am still disappointed.
Shadenuat wrote: I don't care what mary sue my miniatures need or have to butcher to be worthy, I just want them to be worthy of inclusion into the army because of some unique role they can fill well. Jain Zar is actually not bad as a pocket untargetable unit of Banshees goes, with Disarm she really was a swiss knife of rules. Giving her invul as a checkmark (because with 2+, a 5++ can be situational) and +1A would be enough for me. And extra wound would be amazing-tier.
As is, I expected nothing, and am still disappointed.
Yeah, having her at 4A is pretty stupid. Honestly, the attacks stat of most Eldar close combat specialists outside of the Harlequins 'dex is pretty stupid. Close combat specialist Succubi have 4A....backline general aristocrat Archons have...5? Why?
I've always said that I don't give a gak if my Eldar are the strongest, or the toughest, because they're not supposed to be those things. What they SHOULD be is the fastest - which in 8th edition should translate to their Move stat, and their attacks.
The fact that all marine captains and better on the charge or when charged (So, pretty much every turn) have a higher attack stat than the Eldar pheonix lords and close combat specialists is dumb. I'm sorry. Marines are already strongest, they're already toughest, they've already got the best and most useful command aura abilities, some other supposedly elite faction is allowed to have characters with higher attacks stats.
Shadenuat wrote: I don't care what mary sue my miniatures need or have to butcher to be worthy, I just want them to be worthy of inclusion into the army because of some unique role they can fill well. Jain Zar is actually not bad as a pocket untargetable unit of Banshees goes, with Disarm she really was a swiss knife of rules. Giving her invul as a checkmark (because with 2+, a 5++ can be situational) and +1A would be enough for me. And extra wound would be amazing-tier.
As is, I expected nothing, and am still disappointed.
Yeah, having her at 4A is pretty stupid. Honestly, the attacks stat of most Eldar close combat specialists outside of the Harlequins 'dex is pretty stupid. Close combat specialist Succubi have 4A....backline general aristocrat Archons have...5? Why?
I've always said that I don't give a gak if my Eldar are the strongest, or the toughest, because they're not supposed to be those things. What they SHOULD be is the fastest - which in 8th edition should translate to their Move stat, and their attacks.
The fact that all marine captains and better on the charge or when charged (So, pretty much every turn) have a higher attack stat than the Eldar pheonix lords and close combat specialists is dumb. I'm sorry. Marines are already strongest, they're already toughest, they've already got the best and most useful command aura abilities, some other supposedly elite faction is allowed to have characters with higher attacks stats.
Banshees and scorpions having 2A this edition never made any sense for the purposes of either fluff or balance. Even ork boyz have more
Cronch wrote: Ah, so demi-gods can only be matched by actual gods of other races, I see. Man, GW should just delete Xenos since they can't compete with Humanity
I think you're being intentionally obtuse, at no point did i say the Primarchs should be punching out Khorne and nicking his favorite seat atop his throne of skulls.
I said that Primarchs; being practically demi-gods from the seed of the Emperor, are on the same footing as beings who are splinters of shattered Gods or the greatest Champions of various Gods who are imbued with a portion of that God's strength. Surely that isn't a controversial stance to take.
The Phoenix Lords aren't and shouldn't be on par with The Avatar/Greater Daemons/C'tan shards, Primarchs are because of their practically demi-god like origins.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Likewise, Phoenix Lords should wipe the floor with normal marine Calgar.
[troll]However, Primaris Calgar should wipe the floor with them, of course!![/troll]
The only Eldar character that can get even close to threatening calgar is the avatar of khaine, ironically enough. Because it will often deal 3 damage to him with its melta sword, and the 5++ 5+++ is pretty good at staying alive.
All the other pheonix lords deal about 2 damage to the guy and get splatterized in one round
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
kingheff wrote: Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
Asurmen dies in two rounds after getting Calgar to just past half hp.
Fuehan does worse but lasts the same number of rounds.
kingheff wrote: Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
Calgar has more A, W, T and S, none of the Phoenix Lords can remotely match that, though ironically Drazhar's fight twice and +1 to wound abilities mean can do some damage befor dying. It's really sad how GW are content to leave the Phoenix Lords with effectively 3rd ed stats in 8th.
kingheff wrote: Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.
I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.
kingheff wrote: Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.
I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.
The one thing I keep coming back to when thinking about Jain's possible role is that she's maybe meant to be the castle killer, not a horde killer. Got an opponent who's wrapped up all of his units in a 3" bubble around a character? Shoot their screens, then get her to charge in ignoring overwatch and shred them.
I don't think she's going to be very good in that role but I could potentially see it as GW's intention for her.
kingheff wrote: Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.
I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.
It makes more sense for Kara to be the character killer since he deals Mortal Wounds and is a stealth guy and stuff.
That said the Phoenix Lords should have 5 attacks minimum at least.
Basically the low attacks issue is an 8th issue. Almost every CC character or unit does not have enough attacks barring a few obvious exceptions like berserkers or Steelers. Daemon prince 4 attacks base. Warp talons. 1 attack base. And there are so many more across all armies.
xeen wrote: Basically the low attacks issue is an 8th issue. Almost every CC character or unit does not have enough attacks barring a few obvious exceptions like berserkers or Steelers. Daemon prince 4 attacks base. Warp talons. 1 attack base. And there are so many more across all armies.
Don't Daemon Princes have 5 base? Most of the units that don't have many attacks are the ones that have been left behind with stats that haven't really changed since 3rd ed, like Phoenix Lords. There are plenty of units though that have been given both the quantity and/or quality of attacks that are needed, GW just take a scattershot approach to who gets it and in some cases skip complete codexes in this matter (like Craftworlds).
xeen wrote: Basically the low attacks issue is an 8th issue. Almost every CC character or unit does not have enough attacks barring a few obvious exceptions like berserkers or Steelers. Daemon prince 4 attacks base. Warp talons. 1 attack base. And there are so many more across all armies.
Don't Daemon Princes have 5 base? Most of the units that don't have many attacks are the ones that have been left behind with stats that haven't really changed since 3rd ed, like Phoenix Lords. There are plenty of units though that have been given both the quantity and/or quality of attacks that are needed, GW just take a scattershot approach to who gets it and in some cases skip complete codexes in this matter (like Craftworlds).
As xeen said in his post, Princes technically have 4 base but always get 1 extra from their talon (3 extra if they take the pair)
kingheff wrote: Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.
I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.
It looks pretty obvious they're not doing anything good with the Phoenix Lords. Hopefully, the backlash is loud enough for GW to hear.
Nah. The boxset that is half ancient sculpts and 30% more expensive than the all new kits Shadowspear not selling out will just reinforce the Marines first mentality.
Eldarain wrote: Nah. The boxset that is half ancient sculpts and 30% more expensive than the all new kits Shadowspear not selling out will just reinforce the Marines first mentality.
sadly you're proably right, Wake the dead also sold out a lot faster then most boxes and GW will if the eldar set under sells proably point to those two date points as proof eldar just aren't selling (even though wake the dead suffered more due to primaris box fatigue then anything. I think at this point everyone has more hellblasters and intercessors then they know what to do with)
Chopstick wrote: I reckon this box would sell well and the price epidemic continue. Because people will just suck it up and buy it with their 25% off from their store.
Man I really miss Death Masque and Burning of Prospero, they had insane value but without the insane price.
Calith was IMHO the best value simply due to being ALL Space Marines.
tneva82 wrote: That prospero had pretty similar value...
it did but traded some of the stuff for custodes and sisters. Calith meanwhile was a single force and thus made for an awesome "army in a box"couse I bought both of em, but yeah for awhile I was basicly reccomending calith over the starter set for marine intreasted people
tneva82 wrote: That prospero had pretty similar value...
it did but traded some of the stuff for custodes and sisters. Calith meanwhile was a single force and thus made for an awesome "army in a box"couse I bought both of em, but yeah for awhile I was basicly reccomending calith over the starter set for marine intreasted people
Yeah, Calth was probably the best box recently in terms of sheer value to a single player. I added 30 tacticals, 5 Cataphractii, Chaplain, Cat Capt & a relic contemptor in one fell swoop.
name another box before or since with that much bang for your buck for one faction?
everyone saying the eldar box sucks, but as a ynarri only player it makes sense(not that I'm buying it...cuz Sororitas), just not from a competitive viewpoint. yes it sucks it's not whole squads, that it's not a raider & wave serpent, etc...but as someone who doesn't own any of the included models, it looks appealing.
Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.
The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.
We don’t know the entire picture yet - it’s disappointing that points costs haven’t been changed but I suspect that’s what CA is for. There could be a ton of new rules that make Banshees (among other things aka - Falcon, Vyper, Scourges etc) worth taking. One decent stratagem is all it takes. Let’s hold the lamentations back until we’ve seen the entire picture shall we?
Do things look bleak in terms of rules? Yes. Could things be great when we see the entire book? Also yes. This thread could do with a salt reduction I think.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.
Boxes don't have one side anyway. This is actually unusually good in that you CAN play them together. But last time I checked there's no way to use both ad mech, knights and necrons together. Or space wolves and genestealer cult. Or number of other combos.
(oh and primaris and chaos aren't exactly allies either)
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.
Boxes don't have one side anyway. This is actually unusually good in that you CAN play them together. But last time I checked there's no way to use both ad mech, knights and necrons together. Or space wolves and genestealer cult. Or number of other combos.
(oh and primaris and chaos aren't exactly allies either)
There have been plenty of boxes where you can use both halves in one army. Marines are a good example if you fancied getting fluffy (even played some Raven Guard Alpha Legion last night to reinforce my point!).
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.
The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.
We don’t know the entire picture yet - it’s disappointing that points costs haven’t been changed but I suspect that’s what CA is for. There could be a ton of new rules that make Banshees (among other things aka - Falcon, Vyper, Scourges etc) worth taking. One decent stratagem is all it takes. Let’s hold the lamentations back until we’ve seen the entire picture shall we?
Do things look bleak in terms of rules? Yes. Could things be great when we see the entire book? Also yes. This thread could do with a salt reduction I think.
Actually Dark Imperium was all new stuff too. but you're absolutely right that it's very much a case of "exceptions not the rules". In fact 40k Box sets are predictable. New models. often monopose, with a mix of old stuff, that acts as a sort of "preview" of new plastic multipose kits that we, hopefully, receive at a later date.
BrianDavion wrote: ad chances are if banshees where squads of 10 before, we'll see their new data sheet being size 5-10
They are already 5-10, you just never seen them played as a 5-man unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.
The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.
We don’t know the entire picture yet - it’s disappointing that points costs haven’t been changed but I suspect that’s what CA is for. There could be a ton of new rules that make Banshees (among other things aka - Falcon, Vyper, Scourges etc) worth taking. One decent stratagem is all it takes. Let’s hold the lamentations back until we’ve seen the entire picture shall we?
Do things look bleak in terms of rules? Yes. Could things be great when we see the entire book? Also yes. This thread could do with a salt reduction I think.
While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.
While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.
This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.
While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.
This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.
If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.
Ynnari happening and thus stuff actually happening in the Eldar background and Eldar fluff no longer being mainly about boring gak thousands of years ago that nobody cares about and has no bearing on Eldar storylines, narrative campaigns and the developments in “contemporary” 40K was the first time Eldar became interesting since Ultrammarines had an Half-Eldar Librarian.
While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.
This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.
If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.
I don't see Yvraine so much as stepping in as DE and CWE having substantial elements who feel trapped in one or the other society and don't really like eaither choice being willing to take a gamble on the. Kinda like folks, in a two party system who get tired of both parties and suddenly a third party option with a decently charismatic leader and a reasonably appealing platform pops up. (apologies for the politcal analogy we've a election going on in my country)
Draz and Jain trying to kill each other, but end up K.I.S.S.I.N.G
Turns out Arhra-Draz was just heartbroken, and even turns out it was all because of a misunderstanding. All revealed in a snappy conversation while they duel.
-the day hollywood came to nothingham
An Actual Englishman wrote: The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.
That would be accurate if Banshees weren't twice more expensive and had 2 less Strength.
And were Troops.
If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]
silverstu wrote: If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]
Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.
That would be accurate if Banshees weren't twice more expensive and had 2 less Strength.
And were Troops.
Yeah, except that even against the sorts of targets that Banshees are supposed to be better against (MEQ) blunt-force units like choppa boyz still solidly outperform them. Equal points of choppa boyz do over twice as much damage vs MEQ than Banshees do.
Bloodletters are a similar example of a terrible unit. They're better than banshees, but they are still terrible!
kingheff wrote: Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
Asurmen dies in two rounds after getting Calgar to just past half hp.
Fuehan does worse but lasts the same number of rounds.
I'd forgotten about how much of a buff gravis Calgar got, but I did a few test battles and whoever charges usually loses in a Calgar Vs asurman fight. With asurman it's a bit swingy due to his mortal wounds potential. Fuegan needs luck on his side to prevail however.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless the phoenix lords get exarch powers, which they definitely should since they're the creators of the aspects.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Pretty sure GW said that it's great for collecting both forces in an article this week.
They don't have to spell things out for the box to be a Ynnari starter, especially when you see loads of Incubi as Ynnari.
Jain Zarr is already pro-Ynnari, maybe Drazhar will have a change of heart.
The problem here is that the Ynnari rules specifically say that no named characters can be Ynnari (other than the obvious 3) so Drazhar and Jain Zar can never be used in an Ynnari detachment.
silverstu wrote: If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]
Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.
Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?
silverstu wrote: If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]
Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.
Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?
You're thinking of Wake the Dead. Death Masque was Harlequins versus Deathwatch, and on the Eldar side alone you had one special character (Eldrad), two units of six Players, another character (the Death Jester), two bikes around the same size as Vypers (Skyweavers) and a transport vehicle (Starweaver).
Already that's looking more impressive than Blood of the Phoenix, and that's before you take into account a) those were all new plastic models, and b) Death Masque was £95 instead of £140. It's a bad sign that this is so weak in comparison to both other recent Aeldari box sets.
Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?
That's not Death Masque, all of these are 150$USD btw.
kingheff wrote: Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
Asurmen dies in two rounds after getting Calgar to just past half hp.
Fuehan does worse but lasts the same number of rounds.
I'd forgotten about how much of a buff gravis Calgar got, but I did a few test battles and whoever charges usually loses in a Calgar Vs asurman fight. With asurman it's a bit swingy due to his mortal wounds potential. Fuegan needs luck on his side to prevail however.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless the phoenix lords get exarch powers, which they definitely should since they're the creators of the aspects.
Asurmen: WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A5 SV2+
3++ invuln, S+1 Ap-3 Dd3 melee weapon with D3 mw's on 6 to wound.
Calgar: WS2+ BS2+ S4 T5 W8 A6 Sv2+
4++ invuln, damage halved round up, Sx2 Ap-3 Dd3 melee weapon, rerolls his own to hit rolls.
Assume Asurmen charges. His weapon does 2 wounds 1/3 of the time, 1 wound 2/3 of the time, and an average of 2 MW's on a 6. This puts him at an average of 2.8 wounds dealt to calgar.
Calgar just punches for 3.2 unsaved wounds.
If asurmen charged, then the next round will take place on the marine player's turn so calgar gets to fight first. Calgar hits again for 3.2 unsaved wounds, killing asurmen with average rolls. If Calgar charged, then Asurmen does better, dealing another 2.8 wounds. So Asurmen will at best deal between 5/8 and 6/8 of calgar's wounds before dying.
Versus any Pheonix lord with no invuln save, calgar's 6 attacks deal 6.5 damage on average. This means the only other pheonix lord that can even survive one round against him is fuegan, who does less damage than Asurmen manages.
you're just talking out your butt here, my dude, marine characters are just consistently better than Eldar characters. hand a random captain a thunder hammer and storm shield and he kills Asurmen with average rolls if he fights first the second round, and one-hit KO's any other pheonix lord besides fuegan.
silverstu wrote: If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]
Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.
Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?
You're thinking of Wake the Dead. Death Masque was Harlequins versus Deathwatch, and on the Eldar side alone you had one special character (Eldrad), two units of six Players, another character (the Death Jester), two bikes around the same size as Vypers (Skyweavers) and a transport vehicle (Starweaver).
Already that's looking more impressive than Blood of the Phoenix, and that's before you take into account a) those were all new plastic models, and b) Death Masque was £95 instead of £140. It's a bad sign that this is so weak in comparison to both other recent Aeldari box sets.
Not to mention the new deathwatch vets kit, a deathwatch upgrade kit, and a unit of vanguard vets. Death Masque was the best box set GW has ever put out.
While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.
This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.
If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.
Thats a big confusion many people has with 40k and old fantasy.
Eldar and Dark Eldar ARE NOT High Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy. Their separation doesnt come from a big civil war that destroyed the High Elven Homeland and the Dark Eldar aren't lead by a wanabee King that claims he's the rightfull leader of all Elves.
In 40k the separation of Dark Eldar and Craftworlders comes from how they chose to live their lives after the fall. And even if their philosopies put them at odds many times, their separation is not as big as in Fantasy. At the end of the day they are all Eldar, for a Craftworlder a Dark Eldar comes before a Human in his list of priorities, where in Fantasy, for a High Elf, a Dark Elf is probably the worst thing in the world.
kingheff wrote: Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.
Asurmen dies in two rounds after getting Calgar to just past half hp.
Fuehan does worse but lasts the same number of rounds.
I'd forgotten about how much of a buff gravis Calgar got, but I did a few test battles and whoever charges usually loses in a Calgar Vs asurman fight. With asurman it's a bit swingy due to his mortal wounds potential. Fuegan needs luck on his side to prevail however.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless the phoenix lords get exarch powers, which they definitely should since they're the creators of the aspects.
Asurmen: WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A5 SV2+
3++ invuln, S+1 Ap-3 Dd3 melee weapon with D3 mw's on 6 to wound.
Calgar: WS2+ BS2+ S4 T5 W8 A6 Sv2+
4++ invuln, damage halved round up, Sx2 Ap-3 Dd3 melee weapon, rerolls his own to hit rolls.
Assume Asurmen charges. His weapon does 2 wounds 1/3 of the time, 1 wound 2/3 of the time, and an average of 2 MW's on a 6. This puts him at an average of 2.8 wounds dealt to calgar.
Calgar just punches for 3.2 unsaved wounds.
If asurmen charged, then the next round will take place on the marine player's turn so calgar gets to fight first. Calgar hits again for 3.2 unsaved wounds, killing asurmen with average rolls. If Calgar charged, then Asurmen does better, dealing another 2.8 wounds. So Asurmen will at best deal between 5/8 and 6/8 of calgar's wounds before dying.
Versus any Pheonix lord with no invuln save, calgar's 6 attacks deal 6.5 damage on average. This means the only other pheonix lord that can even survive one round against him is fuegan, who does less damage than Asurmen manages.
you're just talking out your butt here, my dude, marine characters are just consistently better than Eldar characters. hand a random captain a thunder hammer and storm shield and he kills Asurmen with average rolls if he fights first the second round, and one-hit KO's any other pheonix lord besides fuegan.
silverstu wrote: If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]
Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.
Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?
You're thinking of Wake the Dead. Death Masque was Harlequins versus Deathwatch, and on the Eldar side alone you had one special character (Eldrad), two units of six Players, another character (the Death Jester), two bikes around the same size as Vypers (Skyweavers) and a transport vehicle (Starweaver).
Already that's looking more impressive than Blood of the Phoenix, and that's before you take into account a) those were all new plastic models, and b) Death Masque was £95 instead of £140. It's a bad sign that this is so weak in comparison to both other recent Aeldari box sets.
Not to mention the new deathwatch vets kit, a deathwatch upgrade kit, and a unit of vanguard vets. Death Masque was the best box set GW has ever put out.
Crimson wrote: Phoenix Lords are currently about as dangerous than normal Exarchs should be, if even that.
I would welcome Exarchs returning as a Lieutenant style character unit. That would actually be really cool IMO, rather than having them be weirdly potent and important sergeant equivalents.
Though given how good characters are in 8th that would just mean everyone would use exarchs instead of any regular aspect warrior squad
While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.
This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.
If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.
Thats a big confusion many people has with 40k and old fantasy.
Eldar and Dark Eldar ARE NOT High Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy. Their separation doesnt come from a big civil war that destroyed the High Elven Homeland and the Dark Eldar aren't lead by a wanabee King that claims he's the rightfull leader of all Elves.
In 40k the separation of Dark Eldar and Craftworlders comes from how they chose to live their lives after the fall. And even if their philosopies put them at odds many times, their separation is not as big as in Fantasy. At the end of the day they are all Eldar, for a Craftworlder a Dark Eldar comes before a Human in his list of priorities, where in Fantasy, for a High Elf, a Dark Elf is probably the worst thing in the world.
Please don't lecture me on Eldar and Dark Eldar fluff, and I don't even play fantasy. Eldar and Dark Eldar have historically been at odds with each other (see: the fluff) but it's only relatively recently you have them teaming up and even then it's as untrustworthy allies. They still fight each other even then!
Eldar and Dark Eldar working together on a regular basis as Ynnari IS a big change. Dark Eldar with their violence and lack of spirit stones is like a shining beacon in the Warp for daemons to come running and the Craftworlders don't like associating themselves with that. Letting emotions run freely is bad for Eldar business. Slapping them together as Ynnari is like (to reference politics as previously done) conservatives and labour parties forming a coalition.
Crimson wrote: Phoenix Lords are currently about as dangerous than normal Exarchs should be, if even that.
I would welcome Exarchs returning as a Lieutenant style character unit. That would actually be really cool IMO, rather than having them be weirdly potent and important sergeant equivalents.
Though given how good characters are in 8th that would just mean everyone would use exarchs instead of any regular aspect warrior squad
Thats easely fixed with allowing one exarc for each aspect warrior unit.
And I always find strange all this extra exarch powers and things for a character that is basically a slighly better sargeant.
What I don't understand is how a cybernetic slow assf giant roboman in a extremely heavy armor with two giant fists has 6 attacks and the extremely agile and fast eldars have 4.
I mean, I understand why, marines blablabla, but... is just stupid.
Galas wrote: What I don't understand is how a cybernetic slow assf giant roboman in a extremely heavy armor with two giant fists has 6 attacks and the extremely agile and fast eldars have 4.
I mean, I understand why, marines blablabla, but... is just stupid.
I think it's a case of GW refusing to give models actual weaknesses.
e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.
While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.
This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.
If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.
Thats a big confusion many people has with 40k and old fantasy.
Eldar and Dark Eldar ARE NOT High Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy. Their separation doesnt come from a big civil war that destroyed the High Elven Homeland and the Dark Eldar aren't lead by a wanabee King that claims he's the rightfull leader of all Elves.
In 40k the separation of Dark Eldar and Craftworlders comes from how they chose to live their lives after the fall. And even if their philosopies put them at odds many times, their separation is not as big as in Fantasy. At the end of the day they are all Eldar, for a Craftworlder a Dark Eldar comes before a Human in his list of priorities, where in Fantasy, for a High Elf, a Dark Elf is probably the worst thing in the world.
Spoiler alert:
Spoiler:
Malekith was actually the rightful king of the elves all along. The high elf kings were the wannabees.
Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?
That's not Death Masque, all of these are 150$USD btw.
Wow, I've just totaled up the value of everything in that Deathmask box on the Harlequins side of things and it comes to £133.50, whilst the Deathwatch are about £100. Compared to the Craftworlds and Drulhari side of the new box that are both worth about £100, so there's less in it for £40 more. I gather Death Mask is probably unusual just for how much stuff you got in it but still, GW are out right lying about this being their biggest box set ever.
The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.
I mean they're also sitting at 13ppm, and clearly intended to be a glass cannon melee specialist. But how does any of that compare favorably with boyz who have a higher toughness/strength, and double the attacks for half the price?
The power swords don't make up for terrible damage output
It's also still terrible fluff-wise because Banshees are intended to be supernaturally quick in combat, yet they've got the same attack profile of a guard sgt or a bunch of melee cultists.
Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?
That's not Death Masque, all of these are 150$USD btw.
Wow, I've just totaled up the value of everything in that Deathmask box on the Harlequins side of things and it comes to £133.50, whilst the Deathwatch are about £100. Compared to the Craftworlds and Drulhari side of the new box that are both worth about £100, so there's less in it for £40 more. I gather Death Mask is probably unusual just for how much stuff you got in it but still, GW are out right lying about this being their biggest box set ever.
We don't know what the individual prices of the new models are going to be. If they get a significant price rise (spoiler: they will) then it could still be true.
While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.
This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.
If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.
Thats a big confusion many people has with 40k and old fantasy.
Eldar and Dark Eldar ARE NOT High Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy. Their separation doesnt come from a big civil war that destroyed the High Elven Homeland and the Dark Eldar aren't lead by a wanabee King that claims he's the rightfull leader of all Elves.
In 40k the separation of Dark Eldar and Craftworlders comes from how they chose to live their lives after the fall. And even if their philosopies put them at odds many times, their separation is not as big as in Fantasy. At the end of the day they are all Eldar, for a Craftworlder a Dark Eldar comes before a Human in his list of priorities, where in Fantasy, for a High Elf, a Dark Elf is probably the worst thing in the world.
Spoiler alert:
Spoiler:
Malekith was actually the rightful king of the elves all along. The high elf kings were the wannabees.
I know but that fluff is so bad I normally try to ignore it. How GW did a 180º and made what was basically the most cruel race of the old world (Even more than Chaos), the guys on the right all along was at the level of Blizzard making Illidan the good guy and everything else a moron.
e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.
Well speed isn't that odd actually. Quite a few Dinosaurus would appear as slow and poundering but would be actually outrunning quite a lot. they would look to be moving in slow motion yet be quite fast.
I know but that fluff is so bad I normally try to ignore it. How GW did a 180º and made what was basically the most cruel race of the old world (Even more than Chaos), the guys on the right all along was at the level of Blizzard making Illidan the good guy and everything else a moron.
It was always obvious that de jure Maelkith's claim was legitimate and the later High Elf kings were usurpers. Doesn't change the fact that Malekith was a complete donkey-cave.
e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.
Well speed isn't that odd actually. Quite a few Dinosaurus would appear as slow and poundering but would be actually outrunning quite a lot. they would look to be moving in slow motion yet be quite fast.
Yeah, Usain Bolt only beats an Elephant by 2MPH at his record-breaking sprint. How long your legs are is a thing. I have no problem with IK's having high top speed, given their scale.
I know but that fluff is so bad I normally try to ignore it. How GW did a 180º and made what was basically the most cruel race of the old world (Even more than Chaos), the guys on the right all along was at the level of Blizzard making Illidan the good guy and everything else a moron.
It was always obvious that de jure Maelkith's claim was legitimate and the later High Elf kings were usurpers. Doesn't change the fact that Malekith was a complete donkey-cave.
I'm not saying that Malekith claim wasn't legitimate. I believe that was a good turn, like, yeah maybe he was the rightull heir but he was also a piece of **** so he wasn't fit to rule.
But is too obvious, if you read the 6th edition Dark Elf army book, how they are described as the most vile race in warhammer, but in the 8th they are totally whitewashed and "yeah they aren't THAT bad".It was so obvious that it was painfull to read.
e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.
Well speed isn't that odd actually. Quite a few Dinosaurus would appear as slow and poundering but would be actually outrunning quite a lot. they would look to be moving in slow motion yet be quite fast.
Yeah, Usain Bolt only beats an Elephant by 2MPH at his record-breaking sprint. How long your legs are is a thing. I have no problem with IK's having high top speed, given their scale.
Thats a problem of the game not being depth enough to differentiate top speed on a straight line and maneuverability.
e.g. Imperial Knights could have been made durable and packing significant amounts of firepower, but also slow and ponderous. But no, they just zip around like they're on rocket-skates and in spite of their tremendous weight and bulk, have no issues pivoting on a dime.
Well speed isn't that odd actually. Quite a few Dinosaurus would appear as slow and poundering but would be actually outrunning quite a lot. they would look to be moving in slow motion yet be quite fast.
But what you're ignoring is acceleration. Yes, large things can be fast but they can't just go from a standstill to their maximum speed.
For example, aeroplanes can reach incredible speeds, but if you've ever seen one take off it can require over a mile of runway just to accelerate to takeoff speed.
Furthermore, decelerating and/or changing direction becomes a far more difficult and lengthy process. To use the aeroplane example above, they also require a similar amount of runway to actually come to a stop on landing. Similarly, when they want to turn, they can only do so in a wide arc - they can't just pivot on the spot and then carry on at full speed in the new direction.
Crimson wrote: Phoenix Lords are currently about as dangerous than normal Exarchs should be, if even that.
I would welcome Exarchs returning as a Lieutenant style character unit. That would actually be really cool IMO, rather than having them be weirdly potent and important sergeant equivalents.
Though given how good characters are in 8th that would just mean everyone would use exarchs instead of any regular aspect warrior squad
With how the damage system and AP system works, I'd prefer they got the WS/BS2+ W2 back. I was very much against it for 7th but I think it would be okay for this edition.
vipoid wrote: For anyone interested, it appears DE are getting custom Obsessions and nothing else.
Hmm. Well, I would anticipate that the weaker Obsessions like Strife and Coven of Twelve will most likely be completely obsolete if they're not seeing an SM-style redesign.
Where's this rumor sourced from? I am disappointed to not see the few units that aren't good aren't getting rules updates, but not super surprised. Tough to complain too much when Drukhari is really in a great spot and I can't say that they don't have enough rules to track... most obsessions are already two-parters and they've got PFP and Drugs to keep track of.
The drukhari relic lists are good. The WL traits are good. The stratagems are good. They're an army that doesn't need all that much. Maybe more anti-psyker tech?
Would've been nice to have rules updates to Hellions, Beasts/masters, Wracks and Cronos engines though.
Presumably though they do at least get new profiles to Incubi and Drazar though, which were two units that needed boosts.
The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.
I mean they're also sitting at 13ppm, and clearly intended to be a glass cannon melee specialist. But how does any of that compare favorably with boyz who have a higher toughness/strength, and double the attacks for half the price?
The power swords don't make up for terrible damage output
It's also still terrible fluff-wise because Banshees are intended to be supernaturally quick in combat, yet they've got the same attack profile of a guard sgt or a bunch of melee cultists.
Well crucially Boyz only have a 6+ save while Banshees sit at a 4+ and have inbuilt -1 to hit in combat. They can innately advance and charge and they get +3" to their charge if they do so. That said I think their Str should be 4 (have their swords add +1).
Their speed is represented by their movement stat that is significantly larger than Boyz (5").
Banshees are designed to be a tar-pit so perhaps GW should have gone/should go all in on that? Give them a specific stratagem to make them -2 to hit, watch as they laugh at Power Fists, Klaws and anything else with -1 in built. Give them a way to stop units retreating like Wyches.
Slashing Impact: A model with this obsession finishing a charge move within 1" of enemy infantry, biker or monster models rolls a D6. On a 5+, it causes a mortal wound.
Stimulant Innovators: Hyperstimm Backlash costs 1 command point instead of 2.
Test of Skill: +1 to wound vs 10+ wound enemy models
Trophy Takers: Enemy rolls 2 dice takes the highest for leadership tests
Bezerk Fugue: Hit roll of 6 causes 2 hits
Precise Killers: Wound roll of 6 causes an extra AP-1
Acrobatic Display: Add 1 to invuln saves up to 3++ if in close combat. Models without an invuln get 6++ when in close combat. Can't take a second trait.
Kabal Obsessions:
Mobile Raiders: +3" move to models with fly
Soul Bound: Reroll inured to suffering (6+++ FNP saves) of 1. Models that don't have Inured to Suffering gain Inured to Suffering.
Toxin Crafters: Poison weapons deal 2 damage on a wound roll of 6
Webway Raiders: You can use the webway stratagem twice
Covens
Artists of Flesh: Subtract 1 from damage characteristics of weapons that target units with this obsession (Cannot take a second trait with this one)
Dark Harvests: Exactly the same as slashing impact: MW on a 5+ for each model within 1" on a charge.
Master Torturers: Torturer's Craft costs 1CP instead of 2.
Dark Technomancers: You may choose to add +1 to the wound and +1 to the damage roll for a shooting weapon. If you do, you suffer a mortal wound for each wound roll of 1.
Experimental Creations: The wonky toughness one from the article
Note: It's unlikely this is all of them, because they did not reveal the Wych Cult one from the article, and because they said there were 22. So there are 8 we have not yet seen most likely most of them Coven or Kabal.
Also, they did reference updated Stratagems for Drukhari, though I'm not expecting too much. Incubi are unchanged except the whole squad gets precision strikes (Which, tbf, is really quite good). Drazar gets his fairly solid rework. Too bad he still can't ride in a venom alongside a squad of incubi :^)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, there's a Ynnari.....hype? Article up on warcom I didn't even notice.
It seems like it'll be a reprint of the gak-tastic Ynnari WD rules. Fs in chat for Ynnari.
Shadenuat wrote: They nerfed main Ynnari stratagem, it went up to 2CP.
Best way to run Ynnari is just to run the three characters as a supreme command and ally them with other eldar factions using functional stratagems and chapter tactics
So far Kabals are defintiely looking like they are getting a bit shafted here, I've seen nothing that would make me reconsider playing Flayed Skull.
Potentially some very interesting combos for Coven and Cults, though I'm not sure any of the Coven combo's would be good enough to replace Prophets of Flesh.
I see a 6++ for my Serpents including CC, and potential 5++ with Protect on units on infantry and bikes; and -1 AP for some punching power. It's like Biel-Tan + Ulthwe somewhat but together is more fun.
It would allow me not to use 2CP cover during 1st turn if enemy shoots with -4 AP at me.
Imateria wrote: So far Kabals are defintiely looking like they are getting a bit shafted here, I've seen nothing that would make me reconsider playing Flayed Skull.
Potentially some very interesting combos for Coven and Cults, though I'm not sure any of the Coven combo's would be good enough to replace Prophets of Flesh.
I've got a bunch of Hellions and Reavers in my cult, and Slashing Entrance and Test of Skill is looking pretty sexy to me. Might finally make my Hellions and Reavers good at taking down monsters in fun swarms, and give me a little more bite against vehicles.
I just wish there was a way to give even one point of AP to a hellglaive... Those things are so frustrating to try and use their Damage 2 stat.
Slashing Impact: A model with this obsession finishing a charge move within 1" of enemy infantry, biker or monster models rolls a D6. On a 5+, it causes a mortal wound.
Models? That right? Sounds strong AF if you can get massive squads of Wyches dishing out MW on a 5+. There may still be hope yet.
Imateria wrote: So far Kabals are defintiely looking like they are getting a bit shafted here, I've seen nothing that would make me reconsider playing Flayed Skull.
Potentially some very interesting combos for Coven and Cults, though I'm not sure any of the Coven combo's would be good enough to replace Prophets of Flesh.
I've got a bunch of Hellions and Reavers in my cult, and Slashing Entrance and Test of Skill is looking pretty sexy to me. Might finally make my Hellions and Reavers good at taking down monsters in fun swarms, and give me a little more bite against vehicles.
I just wish there was a way to give even one point of AP to a hellglaive... Those things are so frustrating to try and use their Damage 2 stat.
Unfortunately that strat doesn't work against Vehicles, specifically says Infantry, Bikes and Monsters. I'd still use it with the +1 to wound ability so Reavers with Heat Lances might do a little work and be relatively inexpensive.
They metioned a trait in the WarCom article called Precise Killers/Hunters which gives out AP boosts, so that might be very useful for Hellions.
Slashing Impact: A model with this obsession finishing a charge move within 1" of enemy infantry, biker or monster models rolls a D6. On a 5+, it causes a mortal wound.
Models? That right? Sounds strong AF if you can get massive squads of Wyches dishing out MW on a 5+. There may still be hope yet.
Yeah, models. But only those models that are within 1". But, indeed - pretty strong.
Worth noting that for Hellions and Reavers, they already have a potent combo with the Cult of the Red Grief (Advance and still Charge) and the Slashing Flyby stratagem (When a unit with Fly advances you can select one enemy unit they moved over and roll a die to cause a MW on a 5+ for each model in the unit)
But that's only one unit, and costs CP, and pushes you towards running hellions and reavers as big units instead of small units which you don't wanna do.
Slashing Impact+Test of Skill look really really really good.
Shadenuat wrote: Within "1 means from massive squad only first row rolls?
It's going to mostly depend on how high you roll and how many models get close, I think there are going to be better options for Wyches.
Comparing to Cursed Blade I like this a lot better tbh.
Sure, CB lets me run 20-wych blobs and that is good, and for my non-special weapon wyches CB has the same effect as Test of Skill vs big vehicles.
But test of skill also affects my freaking planes y'all - disintegrators on a Razorwing shredding marines on 2s and vehicles on 4s, yes please!
10 CB wyches with 1 net deal 4.1 wounds vs MEQ on the charge. 10 identical slashing impact wyches deal 6.1. Slashing Impact+AP on 6 to wound wyches deal 6.8 (but I doubt it's worth giving up test of skill given how much wyches struggle against big targets.
...If they really are all for players adopting Ynnari then how about a Start Collecting box and a codex? A Ynnari Kill Team faction box would be spanking too.
...If they really are all for players adopting Ynnari then how about a Start Collecting box and a codex? A Ynnari Kill Team faction box would be spanking too.
That article is preposterous... yeah spend 4 cp and a psychic powr to have that squad of 5 banshees we give you do something...? Duno how you gwtting that 4 cp in the first place a you cant build any detatchements from the box set..
Also you cant actualy be ynnari or use one of the strats unless you buy the triumvarate of ynnead to have one o the characters? Am i missing something obvious? I dont do ynari or DE but you defo cant make a cp gwnerating detatchement from the cwe part of the box.
Ive seen their cheesy marketing and sort of eye rolled before... but this is just plain misrepresentative what you can do with the box and phoenix rising as sold.
Imateria wrote: So far Kabals are defintiely looking like they are getting a bit shafted here, I've seen nothing that would make me reconsider playing Flayed Skull.
Potentially some very interesting combos for Coven and Cults, though I'm not sure any of the Coven combo's would be good enough to replace Prophets of Flesh.
I've got a bunch of Hellions and Reavers in my cult, and Slashing Entrance and Test of Skill is looking pretty sexy to me. Might finally make my Hellions and Reavers good at taking down monsters in fun swarms, and give me a little more bite against vehicles.
I just wish there was a way to give even one point of AP to a hellglaive... Those things are so frustrating to try and use their Damage 2 stat.
Hellions leaving combat and doing eviscerating flyby and then impact hits over and over sounds really thematic and devastating despite being on t3 1w 5+ save models
Edit: I always forget about the advance part of that strat, really should have been just move to help hellions a bit.
Imateria wrote: So far Kabals are defintiely looking like they are getting a bit shafted here, I've seen nothing that would make me reconsider playing Flayed Skull.
Potentially some very interesting combos for Coven and Cults, though I'm not sure any of the Coven combo's would be good enough to replace Prophets of Flesh.
I've got a bunch of Hellions and Reavers in my cult, and Slashing Entrance and Test of Skill is looking pretty sexy to me. Might finally make my Hellions and Reavers good at taking down monsters in fun swarms, and give me a little more bite against vehicles.
I just wish there was a way to give even one point of AP to a hellglaive... Those things are so frustrating to try and use their Damage 2 stat.
Unfortunately that strat doesn't work against Vehicles, specifically says Infantry, Bikes and Monsters. I'd still use it with the +1 to wound ability so Reavers with Heat Lances might do a little work and be relatively inexpensive.
They metioned a trait in the WarCom article called Precise Killers/Hunters which gives out AP boosts, so that might be very useful for Hellions.
Doesn't the coven trait do the exact same thing only without that restriction I guess they figured they hit harder normally and are slower Which is probably fair.
I have a little more faith after watching a bit of the FLG Signals - they mention that some of the new Exarch powers give their Aspect Warriors a new lease of life. They also mention that the meta will be shifting from now onward and won't have time to settle, there may be hope yet for something other than Marines vs Marines.
silverstu wrote: If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]
Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.
Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?
You're thinking of Wake the Dead. Death Masque was Harlequins versus Deathwatch, and on the Eldar side alone you had one special character (Eldrad), two units of six Players, another character (the Death Jester), two bikes around the same size as Vypers (Skyweavers) and a transport vehicle (Starweaver).
Already that's looking more impressive than Blood of the Phoenix, and that's before you take into account a) those were all new plastic models, and b) Death Masque was £95 instead of £140. It's a bad sign that this is so weak in comparison to both other recent Aeldari box sets.
Whoops- so I was - shows how much I have been paying attention! There have seems to have been a lot of eldar boxes... but yes definitely much better value if you happen to like harlequins and Deathwatch.
I was expecting Blood of the phoenix to be a similar price- it still has some value but not enough to tempt me at all.
Racerguy180 wrote: I'm pretty sure that the entire box could run in an appropriately pointed narrative based game.
they didnt say anything about the contents being set up specifically for tournament/competitive. it is a good start for a new collector.
Only for people who are going to take a very roundabout way to get started.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marin wrote: Hmm someone saw that there is coven that is -1 to damage ?
Can some units use it and be better with it ?
Debatable, compared to the 4++ of Prophets it'll be better against some weapons (mostly D2 ones) and worse against others. The most important part is that if you take that trait, you can't have a second.
Racerguy180 wrote: I'm pretty sure that the entire box could run in an appropriately pointed narrative based game.
they didnt say anything about the contents being set up specifically for tournament/competitive. it is a good start for a new collector.
Only for people who are going to take a very roundabout way to get started.
Not everyone builds their army for competitive play.
No, but its a poor start for a collector. There's no theme, no troops, no nothing. You can't even field a legal patrol detachment with the box contents. Even if you somehow combine both and call 'em Ynnari.
A DE player has a venom, a poor Cult unit and nothing else that actually fits into the way DE are organized. Incubi are generally bodyguards for others, scourges are general mercs. They benefit from nothing the DE codex offers .
The craftworld side is a roleless tank, a random single vyper and a bare handful of aspect warriors. No craftworld organizes its forces that way.
You could use a random number generator and field a more fluffy force than what the box gives you.
vipoid wrote: So looking at the contents page, why did this even need to be a book? I'm pretty sure GW has released FAQs with more pages than these rules.
so your telling me that if you dont own any of those models, the box is worthless. That you couldnt use the Banshees, Incubi, venom, falcon, vyper & 2 badass characters? add in a couple boxes of troops and heavy support and then you have a beginnings of a decent force(just not competitive).
It's not an army in a box, just an expensive start collecting with a couple of vehicles added in.
vipoid wrote: So looking at the contents page, why did this even need to be a book? I'm pretty sure GW has released FAQs with more pages than these rules.
To be fair, several of the SM supplements total about 8 pages of rules. This has a fair bit more, even if you aren't interested in the missions.
Though 80 pages does seem really phoned in, especially since the Ynarri stuff is just copy-pasta from white dwarf. They could have at least done a Ynnari makeover with another 16 pages.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote: so your telling me that if you dont own any of those models, the box is worthless. That you couldnt use the Banshees, Incubi, venom, falcon, vyper & 2 badass characters? add in a couple boxes of troops and heavy support and then you have a beginnings of a decent force(just not competitive).
It's not an army in a box, just an expensive start collecting with a couple of vehicles added in.
Yes. Its an expensive 'start collecting' box that requires you to collect a pile of other stuff before you can use it. Hence not actually a start to a collection in any way- the other stuff you have to buy is your actual starting point. That is extremely terrible and worthless.
GW has done a lot of good starter boxes over the years, where you're basically not paying full price for the half of the army you actually want, and it is out of the box workable at low points. This does neither. This is solely to pre-sell new models at a premium price, and move some of their junk stock. 'Competitive' doesn't enter into it. This is a classic sales trap for people who 'need' new stuff 'now,' regardless of what it is, or how inflated the costs are.
I'm starting to feel really underwhelmed from this upcoming book. There aren't many missions, the additional rules look meh, really disappointing. Could have been so much more.
It's not an army in a box, just an expensive start collecting with a couple of vehicles added in.
That's not the greatest argument in favor of the box...
I'm only stating that it isnt worthless, not that it's the best. it is overpriced, if it was $150 I'd buy it due to not having those models yet, since it isnt at a price point I think is reasonable I'm not gonna buy it. But all of it would fit into my current ynarri army nicely.
godswildcard wrote: So I’m a bit slow here, but what is the American cost of Blood of the Phoenix if it’s $390 dollarydoos?
$230 US is what I've been hearing.
Geez...
I wonder what kind of discount I can find on it. I’d really like Drazhar and the Incubi, but that price is about as far away from an ‘auto-buy’ for me as a box can get.
Honestly, I'm kind of glad - but for all the wrong reasons. My White Dwarf subscription is up for renewal next month, and I was on the fence on whether or not to renew it. But it's clear that GW has lost their god damned mind. I really don't like GW chasing whales.
I was initially going to get this box for the Dark Eldar half. But there is no way I could sell the Eldar half for $115. This is just obscene. I guess I will just have to wait for the models to be available separate. And it sucks because I really do like Drazhar and the Incubi.
Edit: people are listing Drazhar and Jain for $35 on eBay. They will likely cost that anyway. So I will just get them that way. Screw the boxed set.
I posted this in the other thread, but I saw it and it....just...yeah...
Basically the full contents of both Dark Imperium and ...Know no Fear? The secondary set. That includes all the books (as pointless as they are now), the dice, etc. etc...
Stormclaw was AUD$190.
Deathstorm was AUD$190.
Death Masque was (IIRC) AUD$220.
Forge Bane was AUD$240.
This price is obscene.
Preach. I hate to be yet another voice complaining about GW’s pricing, but I’m having serious reservations about the rumoured Blood Angels release for Part 3 if this is the price point.
Sqorgar wrote: I know! Who would bother to buy Dark Imperium AND Know No Fear? They are essentially the same box.
I did given I wanted another 5 man intercessor and hellblaster squad and thus it was cheaper to just buy Know no fear then buy the respective boxes.
My biggest fear about this box, it's going to fail and fail hard. and GW in their "infinate wisdom" is going to point to this and not say "We charged too fething much for this and hit the wall where people simply won't buy" instead they're going to say "WELL GUESS PEOPLE DON'T LIKE ELDAR! SCREW UPDATING ASPECT WARRIORS! QUICK MAKE MORE PRIMARIS LEUITENANTS"
I urge everyone to post on GW's facebook page and highlight the price as being too high. it won't correct the price on this box, but perhaps it'll make GW reconsider the future.
Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. This will sell out, due to "Fear of Missing Out", and it will only encourage GW to price the next one even higher.
The prices have gotten too rich for my blood. No way in hell I'm buying this one, and I was really looking forward to them doing Eldar Aspects in plastic.
I think there are several factors that have gone into this abortion of a pricing scheme:
1) The dual-army boxes (as least for Age of Sigmar) sell out within hours. When demand outstrips supply, it is usually an indication that you are pricing your product too low - and this is probably true of the AoS boxes. But I don't think demand is a linear curve. The demand does not evenly change with the price. I think there's a point of no return where demand basically flatlines, where you give up a critical mass of customers and instead focus only on the few, rich whales for success. This can support a niche game like Adeptus Titanicus, but it is a poor idea for a flagship product that needs that critical mass of customers to consume a constant, weekly stream of new products.
2) This is intended to be a collector's item, rather than an evergreen product. All the items inside it will be sold separately at some point in the (likely distant) future. Collector's items can be used to prop up a declining business, as you can artificially increase the profit of your product as the demand shrinks. Of course, as comic books have taught us, leaning too heavily on a collector's market can ultimately crash when the collectors realize that their possessions are only valuable to other collectors, and they've got it too.
What confuses me is that making more money from fewer customers is usually something seen in a declining company (like GW a few years ago), but GW is doing better than ever. Also, since everything in this box will be available separately six months or a year from now, this isn't much of a deal, even including the moderate discount - other than an experiment on pricing, I can't fathom why they would make people pay this much for a box that has so much stuff that people don't want. The Sisters of Battle box will probably be US$400+, though.
3) Brexit. GW is crapping their pants at how Brexit will affect their global business, and they are pricing things in a way that they think will not be devastating to their bottom line, in the worst possible outcome. Will it work? Not a chance in hell. The cost of their goods going up won't safeguard GW's place in the marketplace, it will destroy it. GW is going to price themselves out of the marketplace.
They release so much stuff a month to a singular audience that if they start charging two months worth of hobby budget for a single product, how are they going to sell anything the other seven weeks? I think you can really only ask a typical hobby consumer for about $100-$150 a month, maybe up to $200 for people like me with poor money management skills and are easily excitable. Anything more than that and you start to cannibalize your own sales, as customers have to choose between the things they buy rather than just buying all of it. I thought GW was already past their limit with the Warcry stuff, paying $90 for a ravaged land, $30 for a book, and another $50 for a box of miniatures in a single week - but then two weeks later, they ask for $230 for a single product. I think they've managed to walk the tightrope well so far, but I think they've fallen off and done the one thing they should never do as a company - make their consumers realize that they don't need their products anymore.
Sqorgar wrote: I know! Who would bother to buy Dark Imperium AND Know No Fear? They are essentially the same box.
I did given I wanted another 5 man intercessor and hellblaster squad and thus it was cheaper to just buy Know no fear then buy the respective boxes.
Same, but for the Nurgle side. That I also got a good start to Primaris army was essentially a free bonus. The only unnecessary things from buying them both are the two commanders. Everything else is very usable in the respective armies.
Stormonu wrote:Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. This will sell out, due to "Fear of Missing Out", and it will only encourage GW to price the next one even higher.
I don't agree- this isn't a collectors item, this isn't even vaguely special. Its worth noting that Wrath and Ruin tried to pull this same thing, and of all the boxed sets over the last few years, it is still around for sale on the website. Both Tooth and Claw and Wake the Dead lasted a good long while too, and the contents there were far more reasonable to the price.
It admittedly worked with the AoS stuff, but those boxed barely lasted the weekend, and those commander models have never been seen again.
These models aren't that good, aren't that useful, and GW doesn't actively bury 40k models the way it does AoS models. There isn't anything to miss out on. At most, there is a wait, adn the old versions of these models haven't even disappeared yet. (And the quality difference between the metal and new plastics isn't immense- at least not for the units.
There's zero reason to rush out and blow a wad of money on this box.
I'd consider getting just Jain Zar at this point, as mentioned, she's going to cost $35 anyway. However, what has GW done to inentivize this purchase? She's trash game-wise....so why even part with that money to begin with? heck, at this point in time I'm not even pre-ordering Phoenix Rising. I will need to see a lot of reviews before I decide if this one is worth it.
bullyboy wrote: I'd consider getting just Jain Zar at this point, as mentioned, she's going to cost $35 anyway. However, what has GW done to inentivize this purchase? She's trash game-wise....so why even part with that money to begin with? heck, at this point in time I'm not even pre-ordering Phoenix Rising. I will need to see a lot of reviews before I decide if this one is worth it.
Best part is, you couldn't even play the narrative campaign/story of the book where Vect get's mad at the Ynnari and sends out all the Incubi and Jain Zar (and Yriel) join the Ynnari and thus come into a fight with Drazhar and the Incub by the current rules, as Jain Zar cannot actually be Ynnari, lol.
Sqorgar wrote: I think there are several factors that have gone into this abortion of a pricing scheme:
1) The dual-army boxes (as least for Age of Sigmar) sell out within hours. When demand outstrips supply, it is usually an indication that you are pricing your product too low - and this is probably true of the AoS boxes. But I don't think demand is a linear curve. The demand does not evenly change with the price. I think there's a point of no return where demand basically flatlines, where you give up a critical mass of customers and instead focus only on the few, rich whales for success. This can support a niche game like Adeptus Titanicus, but it is a poor idea for a flagship product that needs that critical mass of customers to consume a constant, weekly stream of new products.
2) This is intended to be a collector's item, rather than an evergreen product. All the items inside it will be sold separately at some point in the (likely distant) future. Collector's items can be used to prop up a declining business, as you can artificially increase the profit of your product as the demand shrinks. Of course, as comic books have taught us, leaning too heavily on a collector's market can ultimately crash when the collectors realize that their possessions are only valuable to other collectors, and they've got it too.
What confuses me is that making more money from fewer customers is usually something seen in a declining company (like GW a few years ago), but GW is doing better than ever. Also, since everything in this box will be available separately six months or a year from now, this isn't much of a deal, even including the moderate discount - other than an experiment on pricing, I can't fathom why they would make people pay this much for a box that has so much stuff that people don't want. The Sisters of Battle box will probably be US$400+, though.
3) Brexit. GW is crapping their pants at how Brexit will affect their global business, and they are pricing things in a way that they think will not be devastating to their bottom line, in the worst possible outcome. Will it work? Not a chance in hell. The cost of their goods going up won't safeguard GW's place in the marketplace, it will destroy it. GW is going to price themselves out of the marketplace.
They release so much stuff a month to a singular audience that if they start charging two months worth of hobby budget for a single product, how are they going to sell anything the other seven weeks? I think you can really only ask a typical hobby consumer for about $100-$150 a month, maybe up to $200 for people like me with poor money management skills and are easily excitable. Anything more than that and you start to cannibalize your own sales, as customers have to choose between the things they buy rather than just buying all of it. I thought GW was already past their limit with the Warcry stuff, paying $90 for a ravaged land, $30 for a book, and another $50 for a box of miniatures in a single week - but then two weeks later, they ask for $230 for a single product. I think they've managed to walk the tightrope well so far, but I think they've fallen off and done the one thing they should never do as a company - make their consumers realize that they don't need their products anymore.
A large quote just to say, I mostly agree but there is no way the sisters box would or could be $400+ USD. That would be complete madness for what you get in the box. At that point I'd say GW has gone beyond being greedy into straight up malicious to their customer base. To try and rip off a base so excited for a release that they have to realize the people want. They said they knew we wanted it, to then rake us over the coals for it ? That would be a step too far for me.
Sqorgar wrote: I think there are several factors that have gone into this abortion of a pricing scheme:
1) The dual-army boxes (as least for Age of Sigmar) sell out within hours. When demand outstrips supply, it is usually an indication that you are pricing your product too low - and this is probably true of the AoS boxes. But I don't think demand is a linear curve. The demand does not evenly change with the price. I think there's a point of no return where demand basically flatlines, where you give up a critical mass of customers and instead focus only on the few, rich whales for success. This can support a niche game like Adeptus Titanicus, but it is a poor idea for a flagship product that needs that critical mass of customers to consume a constant, weekly stream of new products.
You're correct in that demand isn't a linear curve. I believe the theorem that describes this is 'elasticity of demand' but I could be wrong, its been a good 10 years since I studied economics
Either way you are absolutely correct in that the previous boxed sets selling out for GW mean that they likely priced them too low.
2) This is intended to be a collector's item, rather than an evergreen product. The Sisters of Battle box will probably be US$400+, though.
I'm not sure GW see this as a collectors item to be honest. All of the items will be released separately later, or already are.
The SoB box will certainly be expensive as GW believe there is demand for the product. I don't think it will be stupid money though.
3) Brexit. GW is crapping their pants at how Brexit will affect their global business, and they are pricing things in a way that they think will not be devastating to their bottom line, in the worst possible outcome. Will it work? Not a chance in hell. The cost of their goods going up won't safeguard GW's place in the marketplace, it will destroy it. GW is going to price themselves out of the marketplace.
I think Brexit has a part to play in this. The UK price, though expensive, is nowhere near as unreasonable. I suspect that changing exchange rates, the relative increase in costs and shipping/import fees have impacted on GWs pricing model.
The final piece of this pricing puzzle is that GW have simply overestimated demand. As we have seen - many Eldar players aren't too fussed on the new models. The new rules look pathetic in comparison to the marines. The bundle of models in the box is also uninspired for both factions, many players don't need and have no desire for more Falcons, Vypers or Hellions.
This may have seemed more attractive if we weren't in the middle of a massive SM overhaul with a glut of new models and rules. Unfortunately it seems that one design group hasn't spoken to the other while this set for PA and the Marine updates were developed so the rules, and models, look very, very unattractive. Then add to this an inflated price. It's a perfect storm of reasons not to buy, really.
Sqorgar wrote: I think there are several factors that have gone into this abortion of a pricing scheme:
[...]
A large quote just to say, I mostly agree but there is no way the sisters box would or could be $400+ USD. That would be complete madness for what you get in the box. At that point I'd say GW has gone beyond being greedy into straight up malicious to their customer base. To try and rip off a base so excited for a release that they have to realize the people want. They said they knew we wanted it, to then rake us over the coals for it ? That would be a step too far for me.
It could very well be priced at US$ 400+ if they price it at £250 (using current GW exchange rates), which is the "value" of said boxset as disclosed in the WHCommunity Survey earlier this year:
[...]
12) The prizes will be an army of new Adepta Sororitas plastic miniatures. The prizes would include a grand prize worth £250 and 10 prizes worth £35 (grand prize ca. AUD 468 and 10 prizes at AUD 65). The prize value of the 11 prizes are: GBP £600 (ca. AUD 1127) and they will be dispatched to the customer at the time of their worldwide release later this year. The currency and exact value of each prize will vary depending on the countries of residence of the winners.
[...]
Elasticity of demand is the relative variation of the demand of a specific good in relation to the evolution of its price. If it is negative, which most good are supposed to be, demand for a good decrease when its price increase.
For GW there is a good chance that their product are inelastic to a certain degree : when price goes up, demand doesn't change or very little.
WhiteDog wrote: Elasticity of demand is the relative variation of the demand of a specific good in relation to the evolution of its price. If it is negative, which most good are supposed to be, demand for a good decrease when its price increase.
For GW there is a good chance that their product are inelastic to a certain degree : when price goes up, demand doesn't change or very little.
Right you are! Its been a while since I studied and I couldn't be bothered with a google search.
I think you're right with the inelastic nature of GW sales generally too but I also think there's a tipping point where demand just drops off a cliff. This box is likely past the tipping point.
Sqorgar wrote: They release so much stuff a month to a singular audience that if they start charging two months worth of hobby budget for a single product, how are they going to sell anything the other seven weeks? I think you can really only ask a typical hobby consumer for about $100-$150 a month, maybe up to $200 for people like me with poor money management skills and are easily excitable. Anything more than that and you start to cannibalize your own sales, as customers have to choose between the things they buy rather than just buying all of it.
And once the reflex to purchase is interupted,
one might choose to not buy at all.
WhiteDog wrote: Elasticity of demand is the relative variation of the demand of a specific good in relation to the evolution of its price. If it is negative, which most good are supposed to be, demand for a good decrease when its price increase.
For GW there is a good chance that their product are inelastic to a certain degree : when price goes up, demand doesn't change or very little.
Right you are! Its been a while since I studied and I couldn't be bothered with a google search.
I think you're right with the inelastic nature of GW sales generally too but I also think there's a tipping point where demand just drops off a cliff. This box is likely past the tipping point.
Maybe, just maybe,
GW is in the business of saving marriages!
Case in point.
At the store: Wow! Love it! Need it!... huh? 230Euro? For... OK. A vyper. WTF?
OR
At the store: Wow! Love it! Need it! huh? 150Euro? And I get a vyper! Hot I will get one for my wife for her birthday!
WhiteDog wrote: Elasticity of demand is the relative variation of the demand of a specific good in relation to the evolution of its price. If it is negative, which most good are supposed to be, demand for a good decrease when its price increase. For GW there is a good chance that their product are inelastic to a certain degree : when price goes up, demand doesn't change or very little.
Right you are! Its been a while since I studied and I couldn't be bothered with a google search.
I think you're right with the inelastic nature of GW sales generally too but I also think there's a tipping point where demand just drops off a cliff. This box is likely past the tipping point.
Forgetting about elasticity isn't such a loss tho (I teach econ).
I also think GW's product are not infinitly inelastic and that there is necessarily a tipping point. But at the same time, some of their very expensive items are still sold, like limited edition rule books, for reasons that just don't seem to understand,
If I weren't wrapped up with Bonereaper addiction I'd be all over that boxed set. Then again I can safely say that as someone without any Eldar at all.
Looks like GW has let there mask slip and gone full Kirby again.
I hope SoB players are starting to lube up now ready for the most expensive etb kit ever.
SeanDrake wrote: Looks like GW has let there mask slip and gone full Kirby again.
I hope SoB players are starting to lube up now ready for the most expensive etb kit ever.
Considering the SoB box is going to contain a limited edition codex as well, it's going to have to be outrageously expensive even compared to this.
Well, either that, or it'll turn out that GW just decided to charge a random premium for Eldar players wanting plastic updates.
WhiteDog wrote: Elasticity of demand is the relative variation of the demand of a specific good in relation to the evolution of its price. If it is negative, which most good are supposed to be, demand for a good decrease when its price increase.
For GW there is a good chance that their product are inelastic to a certain degree : when price goes up, demand doesn't change or very little.
Right you are! Its been a while since I studied and I couldn't be bothered with a google search.
I think you're right with the inelastic nature of GW sales generally too but I also think there's a tipping point where demand just drops off a cliff. This box is likely past the tipping point.
Forgetting about elasticity isn't such a loss tho (I teach econ).
I also think GW's product are not infinitly inelastic and that there is necessarily a tipping point. But at the same time, some of their very expensive items are still sold, like limited edition rule books, for reasons that just don't seem to understand,
Lol true on all accounts. I suspect that their market is full of relatively wealthy people with a fair bit of nostalgia for the good old days and they/we can afford to spend a few extra pounds on limited edition stuff.
I don't understand how the massively expensive titan pieces sell though. Such as warlords and the like.
It's a social experiment, , they got away with price hike one too many time, highly doubt this one would be different, box would sold out, price keep hiking.
Chopstick wrote: It's a social experiment, , they got away with price hike one too many time, highly doubt this one would be different, box would sold out, price keep hiking.
Pretty much I think they have been slowly creeping prices up since Kirby got the boot and project nuGW got started looking for the tipping point.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The SoB box will be AUD$500 because it has a ltd ed Codex in it.
Anyway, in rebellion of this nonsense I went and got me some Mechanicum stuff.
Back in the day all those Death Storm, Death Masque e.t.c come with a big and thick rulebook, with special cover related to that box set. , also cardboard and cards were free, nowaday cardboard and card are more expensive than the plastic.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Anyway, in rebellion of this nonsense I went and got me some Mechanicum stuff.
Lol this is the worst rebellion ever dude!
HBMC - "Take this GW you fools! My money!! Mwahahahaha those idiots will never see this coming!"
GWHQ, a shadowy figure sits while stroking a cat that purrs, ever so gently - "Just. As. Planned."
Sqorgar wrote: I think there are several factors that have gone into this abortion of a pricing scheme:
[...]
A large quote just to say, I mostly agree but there is no way the sisters box would or could be $400+ USD. That would be complete madness for what you get in the box. At that point I'd say GW has gone beyond being greedy into straight up malicious to their customer base. To try and rip off a base so excited for a release that they have to realize the people want. They said they knew we wanted it, to then rake us over the coals for it ? That would be a step too far for me.
It could very well be priced at US$ 400+ if they price it at £250 (using current GW exchange rates), which is the "value" of said boxset as disclosed in the WHCommunity Survey earlier this year:
[...]
12) The prizes will be an army of new Adepta Sororitas plastic miniatures. The prizes would include a grand prize worth £250 and 10 prizes worth £35 (grand prize ca. AUD 468 and 10 prizes at AUD 65). The prize value of the 11 prizes are: GBP £600 (ca. AUD 1127) and they will be dispatched to the customer at the time of their worldwide release later this year. The currency and exact value of each prize will vary depending on the countries of residence of the winners.
[...]
£250 -> €325 -> US$418
Unless I am missing something, that text does not state that the "army of new Adepta Sororitas plastic miniatures" is the new boxset. The other prizes are based on separately released normal boxes (a squad of 10 Sisters of Battle), and there is no particular reason to believe the grand prize is not a collection of the various new boxes, rather than the single boxset with easy to build figures.
Burnage wrote:
SeanDrake wrote: Looks like GW has let there mask slip and gone full Kirby again.
I hope SoB players are starting to lube up now ready for the most expensive etb kit ever.
[...]
Considering the SoB box is going to contain a limited edition codex as well, it's going to have to be outrageously expensive even compared to this.
It's not much of a limited edition codex, just the regular book with a different cover. I don't much keep track of limited edition codices, but I was under the impression they are at least a bit more special than that to warrant the increased price tag.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: It's not much of a limited edition codex, just the regular book with a different cover. I don't much keep track of limited edition codices, but I was under the impression they are at least a bit more special than that to warrant the increased price tag.
It's my understanding that limited edition codex's are just different covers, and sometimes bundled in tokens or cards. So the sister one fits the bill.
Sqorgar wrote: I think there are several factors that have gone into this abortion of a pricing scheme:
[...]
A large quote just to say, I mostly agree but there is no way the sisters box would or could be $400+ USD. That would be complete madness for what you get in the box. At that point I'd say GW has gone beyond being greedy into straight up malicious to their customer base. To try and rip off a base so excited for a release that they have to realize the people want. They said they knew we wanted it, to then rake us over the coals for it ? That would be a step too far for me.
It could very well be priced at US$ 400+ if they price it at £250 (using current GW exchange rates), which is the "value" of said boxset as disclosed in the WHCommunity Survey earlier this year:
[...]
12) The prizes will be an army of new Adepta Sororitas plastic miniatures. The prizes would include a grand prize worth £250 and 10 prizes worth £35 (grand prize ca. AUD 468 and 10 prizes at AUD 65). The prize value of the 11 prizes are: GBP £600 (ca. AUD 1127) and they will be dispatched to the customer at the time of their worldwide release later this year. The currency and exact value of each prize will vary depending on the countries of residence of the winners.
[...]
£250 -> €325 -> US$418
Unless I am missing something, that text does not state that the "army of new Adepta Sororitas plastic miniatures" is the new boxset. The other prizes are based on separately released normal boxes (a squad of 10 Sisters of Battle), and there is no particular reason to believe the grand prize is not a collection of the various new boxes, rather than the single boxset with easy to build figures.
[...]
Considering that the GW definition of "army" is a few units with an HQ, I'd say it's likely to be it. Next month we'll likely see only the release of the SoB boxset, not the individual multi-part plastic kits, so I'd say the "grand prize" is not a collection of individual boxes.
I hope to be wrong since I like the content of that box very much but, at the point I fear it will be priced at, it would definitely be too expensive for my tastes.
So I can run Jain Zar count as Yvraine for same points in CW with just Gaze and Smite and I swear I will probably get more out of that new miniature that way (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Seeing Jain Zar in 3D makes me appreciate the model even more. The pose really works, this is an excellent upgrade. Drazhar and the Incubi are nice, the Banshees are pretty meh.
I'm not buying this box, but I will be buying Jain separately when that will be possible.
Based on zooming really closely on the preview pages, the fluff is:
Vect hired a ton of people to kill Yvraine.
Drazhar took the bounty.
He nearly decapitated her, but Jain Zarr blocked the blow and is allied the the Ynnari.
Jain Zarr is buffed by Ynead's blessing, allowing her to go toe to toe with Drazhar.
Yncarne also lost her 6+++ aura though. Couldn't have a sub-300 points character handing out FnP or invuls on an aura basis. That'd be super broken, right?
Also the +1 Attack strat you could use IF you had 3 Ynnari detachments of Ynnari-quins, Ynnari-craftworld and Ynnari-drukhari (and thus all the Ynnari characters to make the 3 detachments Ynnari) also went up in CP. Cause army-wide +1 attack on a sort of ... shock assaultish ... charge would be a super-broken thing other wise, right?
Book confirm that you need the 5 Crones sword from morai heg or kill all Eldars to revive Ynnead
Last (5th) Crone sword has been stolen by Slaanesh and stocked in his palace
Yvraine admit the mass suicide is now the only way (i am not sure yet)
5 or 6 pages of details on what are doing famous Craftworlds
Shalaxi Helbane and Syll lead a Slaanesh Hunter party to kill Yvraine and the Avatar
Dark Eldar are close to civil war as a lot of them join Yvraine
Vect sent Drahzar to kill Yvraine and was very very close to succeeding but Jain Zar saved her
2 harlequins exiled from Cegorath join the band, one of them have super strong psychic power, they also warn Ygrainne of a new foe
Yvraine group is now 5 Champions: Jain zar, Visarch, mysterious exiled solitaire, Lelith Hesperax
Multiple fights happen on Exodite Worlds to save them from chaos (3 Phoenix Lord fight together there)
Lots of Eldars are gaining more psychic power since the big rift
Dino riders are mentioned multiple time
Exodite ride to wars with the Eldars now
the Last Stand happen on Iathglas a Hexodite world with a lot of spiritual power
Big fight Dnd fight happen, the 5 champions vs Hellbane, while a bunch of other Eldars sacrifice themself to hold the Slaanesh horde
Jain Zar start using the power of the dead to buff her now
, In the end, Shalaxi Helbane is banished but it was only a shard of his power and he was only having fun.
censored.gif? he was super close to winning vs Jain zar, Vizarch, avatar, Lilith, solitaire (KIA) and Yvraine and it was only a "glamour of his real self". Yea sure, why not just coming for real and delete reality
GaroRobe wrote: Based on zooming really closely on the preview pages, the fluff is:
Vect hired a ton of people to kill Yvraine.
Drazhar took the bounty.
He nearly decapitated her, but Jain Zarr blocked the blow and is allied the the Ynnari.
Jain Zarr is buffed by Ynead's blessing, allowing her to go toe to toe with Drazhar.
Why would she need a blessing for that and does this mean that she can be included in an Ynnari detachment now?
Why would she need a blessing for that and does this mean that she can be included in an Ynnari detachment now?
Unless they changed the rules, named characters and Solitaires cannot be Ynnari currently under White Dwarf rules.
Right, but aren't the new rules reprinted in this book/ They may have changed it. It would be so damn silly to have all this fluff and then not be able to recreate it on the tabletop, lol. It would, in fact, be very GW
After several BL books and hundred years past they still can't get that last sword. While the other 4 were obtained instantly within a few pages. This is probably the dead end for the whole Ynnari plotline, the whole thing is just an excuse to revive the great marine hero Guilliman anyway.
Also did they ever mention the plot involve Kheradruakh getting his last skull and is now taking control of Comorragh?
Chopstick wrote: After several BL books and hundred years past they still can't get that last sword. While the other 4 were obtained instantly within a few pages. This is probably the dead end for the whole Ynnari plotline, the whole thing is just an excuse to revive the great marine hero Guilliman anyway.
Also did they ever mention the plot involve Kheradruakh getting his last skull and is now taking control of Comorragh?
They really wrote themselves into a corner with the Crone swords. What else is there for the Ynnari to do now?
Now if GW ever decide to produce Ynnari specific models and expand the faction out, then maybe there might be a daring raid to recover the sword from Slaanesh. Otherwise I could see the final sword to be like those McGuffins in TV shows. It will never be found and recovered successfully. If somehow found it will always slip out of reach before it can be secured or used.
Chopstick wrote: Didn't they had those raid already in one of the book? The whole claim about 5 sword = Slaanesh die is dubious and nonsense in the first place.
They raided a Crone world and got one of the swords. The Ynnari trio each have one, and Yriel's weapon was written to actually be one of the Crone swords, in a different shape.
It is get 5 swords to wake up Ynnead. They believe Ynnead will be able to destroy Slaanesh but that doesn't mean their belief is correct.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The SoB box will be AUD$500 because it has a ltd ed Codex in it.
Anyway, in rebellion of this nonsense I went and got me some Mechanicum stuff.
Back in the day all those Death Storm, Death Masque e.t.c come with a big and thick rulebook, with special cover related to that box set. , also cardboard and cards were free, nowaday cardboard and card are more expensive than the plastic.
Big and thick? What? You mean these pocket, tiny rulebooks (which is incidentally something 40Kreally needs so dunno why GW sat on their arses 3 years with it) barely larger than a coaster?
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: It's not much of a limited edition codex, just the regular book with a different cover. I don't much keep track of limited edition codices, but I was under the impression they are at least a bit more special than that to warrant the increased price tag.
It's my understanding that limited edition codex's are just different covers, and sometimes bundled in tokens or cards. So the sister one fits the bill.
Speaking of limited edition books, is it me or is Phoenix Rising the laziest one ever? There is literally no difference in covers besides lack of Psychic Awakening logo...
Marin wrote: I still don`t get it, do you get the book in the box or you have to purchase it ?
Do you get the new rules and points with the box or not :-(
You have to buy the book and the box seperately. The box set only contains rules for the models that are in it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The SoB box will be AUD$500 because it has a ltd ed Codex in it.
Anyway, in rebellion of this nonsense I went and got me some Mechanicum stuff.
Back in the day all those Death Storm, Death Masque e.t.c come with a big and thick rulebook, with special cover related to that box set. , also cardboard and cards were free, nowaday cardboard and card are more expensive than the plastic.
Big and thick? What? You mean these pocket, tiny rulebooks (which is incidentally something 40Kreally needs so dunno why GW sat on their arses 3 years with it) barely larger than a coaster?
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: It's not much of a limited edition codex, just the regular book with a different cover. I don't much keep track of limited edition codices, but I was under the impression they are at least a bit more special than that to warrant the increased price tag.
It's my understanding that limited edition codex's are just different covers, and sometimes bundled in tokens or cards. So the sister one fits the bill.
Speaking of limited edition books, is it me or is Phoenix Rising the laziest one ever? There is literally no difference in covers besides lack of Psychic Awakening logo...
Surely you appreciate the jewel like quality of the different font, that there is a £25 font if I ever saw one.
As a digital sculptor myself I cannot unsee one detail of Jain Zar after seeing her in 3D that ruins this sculpt for me „raw” and I will have to convert her - originally her hair were not sculpted to be a support for the model and were simply stretched to end underneath her without any further resculpting. This creates a length of hair that is unnaturally flattened and with significantly less detailed than the rest. This is clearly visible from the back angle parallel to her polearm. Original design had to be much closer to the old one, with her comb flowing free above ground.
The second sculpting problem is with banshee kit and going with swappable helmets/heads with universal hair sculpt - for one, there is a gap between hair and exarch helmet and two, helmetless exarch head ends up looking like there is some sort of a rig underneath the bulk of hair to make them as puffed as they are...
Sqorgar wrote: I think there are several factors that have gone into this abortion of a pricing scheme:
[...]
A large quote just to say, I mostly agree but there is no way the sisters box would or could be $400+ USD. That would be complete madness for what you get in the box. At that point I'd say GW has gone beyond being greedy into straight up malicious to their customer base. To try and rip off a base so excited for a release that they have to realize the people want. They said they knew we wanted it, to then rake us over the coals for it ? That would be a step too far for me.
It could very well be priced at US$ 400+ if they price it at £250 (using current GW exchange rates), which is the "value" of said boxset as disclosed in the WHCommunity Survey earlier this year:
[...]
12) The prizes will be an army of new Adepta Sororitas plastic miniatures. The prizes would include a grand prize worth £250 and 10 prizes worth £35 (grand prize ca. AUD 468 and 10 prizes at AUD 65). The prize value of the 11 prizes are: GBP £600 (ca. AUD 1127) and they will be dispatched to the customer at the time of their worldwide release later this year. The currency and exact value of each prize will vary depending on the countries of residence of the winners.
[...]
£250 -> €325 -> US$418
Unless I am missing something, that text does not state that the "army of new Adepta Sororitas plastic miniatures" is the new boxset. The other prizes are based on separately released normal boxes (a squad of 10 Sisters of Battle), and there is no particular reason to believe the grand prize is not a collection of the various new boxes, rather than the single boxset with easy to build figures.
[...]
Considering that the GW definition of "army" is a few units with an HQ, I'd say it's likely to be it. Next month we'll likely see only the release of the SoB boxset, not the individual multi-part plastic kits, so I'd say the "grand prize" is not a collection of individual boxes.
I hope to be wrong since I like the content of that box very much but, at the point I fear it will be priced at, it would definitely be too expensive for my tastes.
And with no separate boxes out (any time soon? who knows...), the other prizes also presumably won't be handed out yet. To outright state it as a given that the previewed boxset is the thing priced at 250 quid seems to rest on some large assumptions, though at this stage it is admittedly probably no bad idea to assume the worst and see if it comes to pass... after all, a pessimist is rarely disappointed. Not that I'm expecting £250 to actually buy you much more than is in the set, but then at least as full sets rather than easy-to-build figures.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: It's not much of a limited edition codex, just the regular book with a different cover. I don't much keep track of limited edition codices, but I was under the impression they are at least a bit more special than that to warrant the increased price tag.
It's my understanding that limited edition codex's are just different covers, and sometimes bundled in tokens or cards. So the sister one fits the bill.
Speaking of limited edition books, is it me or is Phoenix Rising the laziest one ever? There is literally no difference in covers besides lack of Psychic Awakening logo...
But it's also soft touch! That's how I like my literature. Hardcover, but with a soft touch. Sensual. Hmm...
...
Where was I? Also, to be fair: "The Collector's Edition also includes an expanded background section which features the narrative from the Blood of the Phoenix battlebox and no less than four short stories that were released to coincide with the Psychic Awakening". And a ribbon marker! (Admittedly, I do like ribbon markers. Not at +100% the price of the normal book levels, but I do like them quite a bit.)
Coenus Scaldingus wrote:And with no separate boxes out (any time soon? who knows...), the other prizes also presumably won't be handed out yet. To outright state it as a given that the previewed boxset is the thing priced at 250 quid seems to rest on some large assumptions, though at this stage it is admittedly probably no bad idea to assume the worst and see if it comes to pass... after all, a pessimist is rarely disappointed. Not that I'm expecting £250 to actually buy you much more than is in the set, but then at least as full sets rather than easy-to-build figures.
We know the sisters multipart boxes are one of the prizes, so it's possible the grand prize is the big box set plus say 2 sisters squads, which would value the big box at £180 if each sisters squad is £35
Chopstick wrote: After several BL books and hundred years past they still can't get that last sword. While the other 4 were obtained instantly within a few pages. This is probably the dead end for the whole Ynnari plotline, the whole thing is just an excuse to revive the great marine hero Guilliman anyway.
Also did they ever mention the plot involve Kheradruakh getting his last skull and is now taking control of Comorragh?
They really wrote themselves into a corner with the Crone swords. What else is there for the Ynnari to do now?
Now if GW ever decide to produce Ynnari specific models and expand the faction out, then maybe there might be a daring raid to recover the sword from Slaanesh. Otherwise I could see the final sword to be like those McGuffins in TV shows. It will never be found and recovered successfully. If somehow found it will always slip out of reach before it can be secured or used.
just because they can't get the last sword anytime soon doesn't mean there's not things to do. for example, "The last sword is locked in Slaanish's palace? WELL IT TURNS OUT THAT THERE IS A RITUAL THAT WILL ALLOW A POWERFUL CHAMPION TO ENTER THE PALACE UNDETECTED AND TAKE THE SWORD! IT JUST REQUIRES SOME VAGUE HAND WAVEY gak WE'RE NOT TELLING YOU EXACTLY WHAT IT IS, BUT EVERYTHING THE YNNARI DO IS SO ASTO ENABLE THEM TO DO THAT!" - poof! motivation! see how easy that was?
Voss wrote: Though 80 pages does seem really phoned in, especially since the Ynarri stuff is just copy-pasta from white dwarf. They could have at least done a Ynnari makeover with another 16 pages.
Are there any changes to the Ynnari other than points? I was concerned that the rules might be changed so the Wraithseer could no longer take an artifact, since NewMarine dreadnought characters can't.
Ugh that story line breakdown made me want to switch my phone phone off and walk into the sea...
At £140 will be getting one of these splitting with a guy from flg .. we were planing on getting two but 1 will have to do.. i can pick up a second 5 man unit of banshees from.a scalper. £29 sounds cheaper than what GW will charge when they drop as a solo kit.
Gw realy did a number on the eldar fans. Mierce minatures are looking real good about now.
Gw realy did a number on the eldar fans. Mierce minatures are looking real good about now.
Well going by UK prices:
Falcon - £32.50
Vyper £20
Venom £20
Scourges £17.50
Hellions £17.50
Total £107.50
140-107.5 = 32.50
So that's just over £30 for two characters and two troop sets. Currently many of the characters are £15 each and troops anything from £25 to £30. So that's still a very significant saving.
The only real oddity is why they felt the need to put the Falcon and Venom into the set to price it up higher to the £140 bracket when they could have settled on the £100 bracket as before. IT might be that AT sold so well that GW feels more confident charging more for these duel boxes. Otherwise the deal is still, at least by UK prices, a very good deal from GW that shows a good solid saving over the contents on their own. Though I appreciate that anyone with a current army of either (or both) is likely giong to be darn annoyed that they can't get the new models without hte whole set; but that's honestly the same issue always present with these duel army boxes when they don't feature brand new or very new armies.
Argive wrote: Ugh that story line breakdown made me want to switch my phone phone off and walk into the sea...
Those sort of quick bullet point summaries rarely do any kind of story justice. Its always better to actually read the whole thing. Of course I'm not saying its going to be Shakespeare, but even the bards work would sound a bit naff if it was summed up in that way.
Argive wrote: Ugh that story line breakdown made me want to switch my phone phone off and walk into the sea...
Those sort of quick bullet point summaries rarely do any kind of story justice. Its always better to actually read the whole thing. Of course I'm not saying its going to be Shakespeare, but even the bards work would sound a bit naff if it was summed up in that way.
Boy meets girl
Parents disapprove
Boy and girl commit accidental joint suicide
Yeah boiling nearly any story down into one or two lines generally makes them sound daft, especially any fantasy or scifi story. It's why I try to avoid reading blurbs on the back of books (esp as so many can often spoil the middle of the book and the early plot twists in a general sense).
Argive wrote: Ugh that story line breakdown made me want to switch my phone phone off and walk into the sea...
At £140 will be getting one of these splitting with a guy from flg .. we were planing on getting two but 1 will have to do.. i can pick up a second 5 man unit of banshees from.a scalper. £29 sounds cheaper than what GW will charge when they drop as a solo kit.
Gw realy did a number on the eldar fans. Mierce minatures are looking real good about now.
If we are lucky they are trying to clear out stock on vypers and falcons. Maybe a potential release later for say windriders with shining spears, new vyper, at arch on bike?
Not sure if it was brought up before, but what's the deal with the little shrine? Is it just a filler, like with the BA terminators, or does it serve a purpose, a la ammo runt or ammo cherub?
Argive wrote: Ugh that story line breakdown made me want to switch my phone phone off and walk into the sea...
Those sort of quick bullet point summaries rarely do any kind of story justice. Its always better to actually read the whole thing. Of course I'm not saying its going to be Shakespeare, but even the bards work would sound a bit naff if it was summed up in that way.
Sounds accurate..It seems like its more of the same along the lines of "the path". Short story featured in the PA which was byfar the worst thing ive read in recent memory. And ive read threads by xenomancers... so...
Anything thats pushing the idiotic concept of eldar just throwing themselves to their deaths "because reasons" is just a no thank you for me.
"On tonights episode of garbage mystery stories - are the eldar near you dissapearing in mysterious circuimstances? Find out after the commercial"
However, any mentions of exodites gets me tingling. Might read it just for whatever brief passages i get about those and dream about getting exodite models(ha)
Regarding the box saving. A savin on stuff you dont want to get the stuff you want is no saving. Its a tax.
Luckily i can get it and split it with someone at huge discount but anyone wihout that ability i feel really sorry for.
Chopstick wrote: I reckon this box would sell well and the price epidemic continue. Because people will just suck it up and buy it with their 25% off from their store.
Man I really miss Death Masque and Burning of Prospero, they had insane value but without the insane price.
+1
This box was really disappointing... and expensive. I’ll get the book and the new exarchin later.
...and it clarified that its not the book for me, and might be better off with a strict Craftworld army instead.
Can't help thinking that the Ynnari Triumvirate and rules are better off at home within the pages of Codex: Harliquins. That faction is a bit light on units and make sense as go-betweens for other Eldar factions, maybe the player must select a troope master or shadowseer for it to be a Ynnari army, if not taking one of the Triumvirate?
...and it clarified that its not the book for me, and might be better off with a strict Craftworld army instead.
Can't help thinking that the Ynnari Triumvirate and rules are better off at home within the pages of Codex: Harliquins. That faction is a bit light on units and make sense as go-betweens for other Eldar factions, maybe the player must select a troope master or shadowseer for it to be a Ynnari army, if not taking one of the Triumvirate?
...and it clarified that its not the book for me, and might be better off with a strict Craftworld army instead.
Can't help thinking that the Ynnari Triumvirate and rules are better off at home within the pages of Codex: Harliquins. That faction is a bit light on units and make sense as go-betweens for other Eldar factions, maybe the player must select a troope master or shadowseer for it to be a Ynnari army, if not taking one of the Triumvirate?
That would be much better than the current setup for sure. I'm wondering if this Awakening arc isn't a narrative way of consolidating the 40k lineup. They have a truly insane number of unique factions. Having Eldar become Ynarri and all Astartes working out of the Space Marine book with some sort of Chaotic consolidation would help them keep things updated.
...and it clarified that its not the book for me, and might be better off with a strict Craftworld army instead.
Can't help thinking that the Ynnari Triumvirate and rules are better off at home within the pages of Codex: Harliquins. That faction is a bit light on units and make sense as go-betweens for other Eldar factions, maybe the player must select a troope master or shadowseer for it to be a Ynnari army, if not taking one of the Triumvirate?
This would have been infinitely better than the current setup.
nou wrote: As a digital sculptor myself I cannot unsee one detail of Jain Zar after seeing her in 3D that ruins this sculpt for me „raw” and I will have to convert her - originally her hair were not sculpted to be a support for the model and were simply stretched to end underneath her without any further resculpting. This creates a length of hair that is unnaturally flattened and with significantly less detailed than the rest. This is clearly visible from the back angle parallel to her polearm. Original design had to be much closer to the old one, with her comb flowing free above ground.
The second sculpting problem is with banshee kit and going with swappable helmets/heads with universal hair sculpt - for one, there is a gap between hair and exarch helmet and two, helmetless exarch head ends up looking like there is some sort of a rig underneath the bulk of hair to make them as puffed as they are...
To be perfectly fair, loss of detail might be just mold fault. A lot of plastic GW models has this 'sudden detail loss syndrome', sometimes in really dumb places, that could have been avoided with a tiny bit more work. I bet it's on the mould's side, you'd never get details there, especially with undercuts.
As for the gap, it was in earlier works, DoW2 intro even has banshee mask being just mask and the helmet not protecting from behind. Might be intended, actually.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Where was I? Also, to be fair: "The Collector's Edition also includes an expanded background section which features the narrative from the Blood of the Phoenix battlebox and no less than four short stories that were released to coincide with the Psychic Awakening". And a ribbon marker! (Admittedly, I do like ribbon markers. Not at +100% the price of the normal book levels, but I do like them quite a bit.)
Funnily enough, if you think about it, whales are likely to splurge for both, making the narrative section likely completely useless.
As for short stories, for the price of the difference I could have just printed them off WarCom like 40000 times
...and it clarified that its not the book for me, and might be better off with a strict Craftworld army instead.
Can't help thinking that the Ynnari Triumvirate and rules are better off at home within the pages of Codex: Harliquins. That faction is a bit light on units and make sense as go-betweens for other Eldar factions, maybe the player must select a troope master or shadowseer for it to be a Ynnari army, if not taking one of the Triumvirate?
Personally I'd just change the harlequin codex to an Eldar Cults codex and have that as a place for Harlequins, Ynnari and some Exodites.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Sounds like an opportunity to create an entirely new range of plastic dino-riding space elves.
They should have focused on them and corsairs before ever inventing a new faction...
It sounds like they don't know what the hell they want to do with Eldar at the moment
That seems very accurate to me actually. There's a huge disconnect between what GW and Black Library hint at for the story going forwards and what they do with specific characters like Jain Zar. Then there's things like trying (and failing) to fix Ynnari while Corsairs have nothing.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Sounds like an opportunity to create an entirely new range of plastic dino-riding space elves.
They should have focused on them and corsairs before ever inventing a new faction...
It sounds like they don't know what the hell they want to do with Eldar at the moment
That seems very accurate to me actually. There's a huge disconnect between what GW and Black Library hint at for the story going forwards and what they do with specific characters like Jain Zar. Then there's things like trying (and failing) to fix Ynnari while Corsairs have nothing.
This is definitely a plot point that we likely wont see resolved for years to come, and during those years Ynnari will remain this weird psuedo-faction that has lore importance and little else. Oh, except rules that are hard to balance.
It's weird and we won't see the result of these developments for a long time, and that's just going to be frustrating for the fanbase that's left with a half-resin, half-plastic range of models and no satisfying lore development.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Sounds like an opportunity to create an entirely new range of plastic dino-riding space elves.
They should have focused on them and corsairs before ever inventing a new faction...
It sounds like they don't know what the hell they want to do with Eldar at the moment
You are the opposite of wrong there.
Because seriously. Dino-Riding Space Elves. That just sounds like a bloody license to print money. Heck, they even should have the CADs to draw from at this point with Lizardman stuff and other Eldar stuff. That doesn't sound like a tough one to work with, and the cool factor is beyond ridiculous.
And I say all this as someone who likes the Ynnari a lot - even if I'm hating their rules.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Sounds like an opportunity to create an entirely new range of plastic dino-riding space elves.
They should have focused on them and corsairs before ever inventing a new faction...
It sounds like they don't know what the hell they want to do with Eldar at the moment
You are the opposite of wrong there.
Because seriously. Dino-Riding Space Elves. That just sounds like a bloody license to print money. Heck, they even should have the CADs to draw from at this point with Lizardman stuff and other Eldar stuff. That doesn't sound like a tough one to work with, and the cool factor is beyond ridiculous.
And I say all this as someone who likes the Ynnari a lot - even if I'm hating their rules.
Absolutely. Dino Riders...exodites have been my favourite since tghe 2nd ed codex. there is literally nothing to hate about them.
I liked the IDEA of the Ynnari, but their purpose is narratively a deadend. Especially now that apparently they will never get the 5th crone sword and so the whole endeavour is a waste of time and they all have to suicide anyway. Which is a status quo reset if ever I've seen one. Pre-eldrad trying to wake Ynnead, that was the only potential option - mass suicide. Which is why it went nowhere.
So it seems like they have just decided to do nothing with Ynnari...
Yeah when adding up all the previously-existing kits, the cost of the new stuff in this box set is actually pretty darn good.
But because of that choice of existing kits, the price point this lands at just...feels bad.
Sure the savings are there, but $280 CAD for a 25-model box set just leaves a bad taste in my mouth in the wake of stuff like Dark Imperium and Wake the Dead and Shadowspear all being around the $200 range and with higher model counts. This seems like a good example of how not to do a box set - the value is there on paper but it's not as tangible as previous sets have been. There's something to be said about how price points "feel" that doesn't land, here.
Still a nice set, but at that price point it's definitely not tempting me out of my plans to stay the course and wait for Sisters. It's a shame (for me) because I could actually really use a lot of the kits in this one.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Sounds like an opportunity to create an entirely new range of plastic dino-riding space elves.
They should have focused on them and corsairs before ever inventing a new faction...
It sounds like they don't know what the hell they want to do with Eldar at the moment
You are the opposite of wrong there.
Because seriously. Dino-Riding Space Elves. That just sounds like a bloody license to print money. Heck, they even should have the CADs to draw from at this point with Lizardman stuff and other Eldar stuff. That doesn't sound like a tough one to work with, and the cool factor is beyond ridiculous.
And I say all this as someone who likes the Ynnari a lot - even if I'm hating their rules.
Honestly, I would be convinced if they had enough higher toughness units that I could do potential conversions with the current Lizardmen range.
Eldarain wrote: I still think they could get the fifth sword. Tie it into the Emperor's Children arc. They summon Ynnead but it fails to slay Slaanesh.
Now Eldar are one faction Ynarri and have a Primarch scale monstrous character.
or they could simply leave Ynnari plan as "in progress" it's a plan that could take centuries to acheive
Eldarain wrote: I still think they could get the fifth sword. Tie it into the Emperor's Children arc. They summon Ynnead but it fails to slay Slaanesh.
Now Eldar are one faction Ynarri and have a Primarch scale monstrous character.
or they could simply leave Ynnari plan as "in progress" it's a plan that could take centuries to acheive
Always possible though they did stress they are resolving story arcs during this series.
Eldarain wrote: I still think they could get the fifth sword. Tie it into the Emperor's Children arc. They summon Ynnead but it fails to slay Slaanesh.
Now Eldar are one faction Ynarri and have a Primarch scale monstrous character.
or they could simply leave Ynnari plan as "in progress" it's a plan that could take centuries to acheive
Always possible though they did stress they are resolving story arcs during this series.
Sure and they'll set up new ones at the same time.
I saw the box set on a 3rd party seller website for £112 which is a pretty decent price, that makes selling the other half of you don't want it more viable.
Eldarain wrote: I still think they could get the fifth sword. Tie it into the Emperor's Children arc. They summon Ynnead but it fails to slay Slaanesh.
Now Eldar are one faction Ynarri and have a Primarch scale monstrous character.
or they could simply leave Ynnari plan as "in progress" it's a plan that could take centuries to acheive
Always possible though they did stress they are resolving story arcs during this series.
There aren't a lot of ynnari resolutiona that end well....
Yeah good luck with the fifth sword, it is not AoS,
Slaanesh is still in the Palace, and probably not alone...
As if the Chaos God himself needed servants to smash some
elves when he/she founds them robbing the thing...
Eldarain wrote: I still think they could get the fifth sword. Tie it into the Emperor's Children arc. They summon Ynnead but it fails to slay Slaanesh.
Now Eldar are one faction Ynarri and have a Primarch scale monstrous character.
or they could simply leave Ynnari plan as "in progress" it's a plan that could take centuries to acheive
Always possible though they did stress they are resolving story arcs during this series.
There aren't a lot of ynnari resolutiona that end well....
Ynnari are pretty new, I imagine what we're going to see resolved is danling plot hooks that GW's had hanging for 20+ years.
Gw realy did a number on the eldar fans. Mierce minatures are looking real good about now.
Well going by UK prices:
Falcon - £32.50
Vyper £20
Venom £20
Scourges £17.50
Hellions £17.50
Total £107.50
140-107.5 = 32.50
Just checked Ebay and the prices are cheaper than the official prices by far. The prices come in at around £74 .
Aye, certainly any retail outlet selling things less than RRP is going to be cheaper. I went for the GW prices because they are basically the "most expensive" and also a fixed price whilst 3rd parties can vary quite a bit depending on the store itself. Plus there's quite a f few people who just buy those kits at launch and sell off the excess without needing to profit and they can get even lower in price (because they mostly want to just fast sell rather than profit sell).
Honestly the main issue is the same one that we always get with the duel kits, which is that anyone who has already got an army doesn't "really" need the already released models. The other issue is how long the lag time is between box and individual model sale and that's very variable. GW was super fast with Warcry stuff going on individual sale, but at the same time the Carrion Empire box released way back at the start of the year still hasn't got the two leader models released on their own. And that's just two very basic single sprue blisters for sale.
I'm starting to think that this series of books is the equivalent for 40k to the "End Times" for Fantasy...
From before the "Gathering Storm" thing the background and lore material is truly atrocious anyway, so maybe a total reshuffle a la "Age of Sigmar" is possible.
Warpspy wrote: I'm starting to think that this series of books is the equivalent for 40k to the "End Times" for Fantasy...
From before the "Gathering Storm" thing the background and lore material is truly atrocious anyway, so maybe a total reshuffle a la "Age of Sigmar" is possible.
What do you think?
Thats kinda a baiting post - we already had a AOS reshuffle of lore and rules....I don't think this is it. Its more a few bits and pieces for the Eldar then yet another wave of Marine stuff - -same old same old
Some old lore is awesome - some less so - same as the new stuff. Gathering storm was ok - Vigilus was less good - lore was ok I guess but the rules and models were guess what - just more Marines. And then nothing much happened at the end of it.
Warpspy wrote: I'm starting to think that this series of books is the equivalent for 40k to the "End Times" for Fantasy...
From before the "Gathering Storm" thing the background and lore material is truly atrocious anyway, so maybe a total reshuffle a la "Age of Sigmar" is possible.
What do you think?
That you are exaggerating, haven't understood that 40k has always been set at the edge of extinction storywise and you haven't followed the different situations of both systems closely? A 'total reshuffle' of 40k was thought about but axed 3 years ago (stated in interviews). It does not happen
Slaanesh_shield wrote: Yeah good luck with the fifth sword, it is not AoS,
Slaanesh is still in the Palace, and probably not alone...
As if the Chaos God himself needed servants to smash some
elves when he/she founds them robbing the thing...
Some eldar got in to the garden of Nurgle to free Isha -it didnt end well.
But it bring up another line of thought. Isha was first captured by Slaanesh, but the great
and loving heart of Nurgle got him to free her from Slaanesh and claim her as his queen.
So perhaps the Aeldari can get some other chaos god to get the last sword. Sounds easy enough
Slaanesh_shield wrote: Yeah good luck with the fifth sword, it is not AoS,
Slaanesh is still in the Palace, and probably not alone...
As if the Chaos God himself needed servants to smash some
elves when he/she founds them robbing the thing...
Some eldar got in to the garden of Nurgle to free Isha -it didnt end well.
But it bring up another line of thought. Isha was first captured by Slaanesh, but the great
and loving heart of Nurgle got him to free her from Slaanesh and claim her as his queen.
So perhaps the Aeldari can get some other chaos god to get the last sword. Sounds easy enough
Of course some part of Slaanesh would enjoy being subjegated by a resurgent Eldar God/Goddess......likely some dodgy ficition about it somewhere.
Slaanesh_shield wrote: Yeah good luck with the fifth sword, it is not AoS,
Slaanesh is still in the Palace, and probably not alone...
As if the Chaos God himself needed servants to smash some
elves when he/she founds them robbing the thing...
Some eldar got in to the garden of Nurgle to free Isha -it didnt end well.
But it bring up another line of thought. Isha was first captured by Slaanesh, but the great
and loving heart of Nurgle got him to free her from Slaanesh and claim her as his queen.
So perhaps the Aeldari can get some other chaos god to get the last sword. Sounds easy enough
Or just have Draigo walk in there, beat up Slaanesh and take it. Then the rest of the story is about the Eldar trying to get the sword from Draigo.
BlackKnight wrote: Just checked Ebay and the prices are cheeper than the official prices by far. The prices come in at around £74 .
With shipping?
Yes a lot were free shipping. It is changing quite rapidly I checked back about two hours later and some had gotten cheaper while others had gone up.
The new models seem to be £25 for the Characters and £30 for the units.
Honestly not bad, I was speaking to my GW store guy and he was explaining how GW work on a 4 year profit plan and how vyper was basically a free addition (don't really believe him because you can compare to shadowspear...).
He also thought the banshees would be a 5 man for £30. So I'm happy to pay the price early.
Slaanesh_shield wrote: Yeah good luck with the fifth sword, it is not AoS,
Slaanesh is still in the Palace, and probably not alone...
As if the Chaos God himself needed servants to smash some
elves when he/she founds them robbing the thing...
One of the Ynnari books has them breaking into the Gardens of Nurgle to steal something and they come out of that just fine. Slaanesh's palace is still a place, and that makes it possible even if unlikely.
Dulahan wrote: One of the Ynnari books has them breaking into the Gardens of Nurgle to steal something and they come out of that just fine. Slaanesh's palace is still a place, and that makes it possible even if unlikely.
The Aeldari, lead by Yvraine and Visarch, were after the Hand of Darkness. And even, the Garden of Nurgle was just a transit point as they made their way to the the Whispering Tower of Mortarian on the Plague Planet.
Slaanesh_shield wrote: Yeah good luck with the fifth sword, it is not AoS,
Slaanesh is still in the Palace, and probably not alone...
As if the Chaos God himself needed servants to smash some
elves when he/she founds them robbing the thing...
Some eldar got in to the garden of Nurgle to free Isha -it didnt end well.
But it bring up another line of thought. Isha was first captured by Slaanesh, but the great
and loving heart of Nurgle got him to free her from Slaanesh and claim her as his queen.
So perhaps the Aeldari can get some other chaos god to get the last sword. Sounds easy enough
When we say that Nurgle "got" Slaanesh to free Isha it was less a trade and more a mugging.
Coordinate with Khorne to attack the palace. Khorne would probably be all for that.
Or just manipulate Khorne to, and hope one of his champions gets the sword and then it's just a short waiting game to ambush said champion when they do something.
Dulahan wrote: Coordinate with Khorne to attack the palace. Khorne would probably be all for that.
Or just manipulate Khorne to, and hope one of his champions gets the sword and then it's just a short waiting game to ambush said champion when they do something.
Not a bad idea but how do you "Coordinate with Khorne" ??
Dulahan wrote: Coordinate with Khorne to attack the palace. Khorne would probably be all for that.
Or just manipulate Khorne to, and hope one of his champions gets the sword and then it's just a short waiting game to ambush said champion when they do something.
Not a bad idea but how do you "Coordinate with Khorne" ??
Not sure he is in the astrotelapathic phone book
Eldar Psychic Shenanigans! Murder a random Tau warlord here. Shave off one eyebrow from Chapter Master Bob of the Imperial Bob Legion there. Put a feather under a governor's pillow somewhere else. Say nana nana boo boo to the Tyranids on the other side of the Galaxy and run. PROFIT! The plan can't fail, obviously!
Dulahan wrote: Coordinate with Khorne to attack the palace. Khorne would probably be all for that.
Or just manipulate Khorne to, and hope one of his champions gets the sword and then it's just a short waiting game to ambush said champion when they do something.
Not a bad idea but how do you "Coordinate with Khorne" ??
Not sure he is in the astrotelapathic phone book
You just follow behind when something like THIS happens:
Syll and Esske ultimately fought as one to protect Slaanesh’s throne room against a devastating assault from a dread host of Khornate Daemons that had fought its way further into the Dark Prince’s realm than ever before. For their part in defeating the invading horde and saving Slaanesh from the ignominy of intervening directly to slaughter the intruders...
The Chaos Gods are always willing to see each others plans ruined and come to naught
If the plot summary is true, I m not really impressed with the level of radical game changing fluff it was set out to be.
Its basicly bussiness as usual, and even the ynnari plot coming to a grinding halt.
However, the Blood Angels/Tyranid box makes more sense if the story line is not more notable than in phoenix rising.
Getting more and more dissapointed in this campaign.
Wasn't there a rumour post saying that Psychic Awakening is about fleshing out the story gaps from the last 100 years? Things like Tyranids fighting on Baal would be covered in more detail, rather than introducing new stories.
Not unless its a "historic" campaign. The Nids were defeated on Baal towards the end of the Indomitus crusade. 40K's current "present" is about a century after the crusade's end.
Yourself!"
You mean these pocket, tiny rulebooks (which is incidentally something 
