xttz wrote: Wasn't there a rumour post saying that Psychic Awakening is about fleshing out the story gaps from the last 100 years? Things like Tyranids fighting on Baal would be covered in more detail, rather than introducing new stories.
I don’t believe it’s a rumor. In a recent stream, GW apparently confirmed that Psychic Awakening is taking place in the Indomitus Crusade and the immediate time after. This includes the conclusion of BA/Tyranids at Baal.
They are supposedly planning to flesh out this era in the same fashion as they are the Horus Heresy.
Well Tyranids are like Orks, just wiping out the main body won't have removed them. There's likely splinter fleets and hives all over the place in various states. So a lot to clean up and campaign to remove from whole systems even once the core body of the Fleet has been destroyed.
Plus Tyranids have that huge world they are building
The problem with doing a historic campaign is that there's very little to get invested in because much we already know.
We know that most characters are alive. We know that x have defeated y and a have attacked b, c and d. I feel that we're going to learn very little new information from this campaign, which is a shame as I'm sure GW said that they'd move the story forward (or at least implied it).
An Actual Englishman wrote: The problem with doing a historic campaign is that there's very little to get invested in because much we already know.
We know that most characters are alive. We know that x have defeated y and a have attacked b, c and d. I feel that we're going to learn very little new information from this campaign, which is a shame as I'm sure GW said that they'd move the story forward (or at least implied it).
Yes, this is why the movie 'Titanic' was such a box office failure. It's also why no one watches James Bond movies, as everyone knows that they'll just keep making them, so in the end Bond must always survive and defeat the bad guys.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The problem with doing a historic campaign is that there's very little to get invested in because much we already know.
We know that most characters are alive. We know that x have defeated y and a have attacked b, c and d. I feel that we're going to learn very little new information from this campaign, which is a shame as I'm sure GW said that they'd move the story forward (or at least implied it).
We know the overall major part of the story; but there's ample room to set the seeds for sub-plots within that story which might setup some interesting twists that develop after the major end that we know of. Which without otherwise going back to see with story elements, would feel like they came out of nowhere.
Have they done one of those campaigns in recent times when it involves the results of player battles? I recall from many moons ago an Armageddon campaign and everyone emailed their results in. That was a lot of fun!
An Actual Englishman wrote: The problem with doing a historic campaign is that there's very little to get invested in because much we already know.
We know that most characters are alive. We know that x have defeated y and a have attacked b, c and d. I feel that we're going to learn very little new information from this campaign, which is a shame as I'm sure GW said that they'd move the story forward (or at least implied it).
Yes, this is why the movie 'Titanic' was such a box office failure. It's also why no one watches James Bond movies, as everyone knows that they'll just keep making them, so in the end Bond must always survive and defeat the bad guys.
Comparing major movie releases with 40k campaigns? Now even for you, that's a pretty big streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeettttccchhhhhhh. One that bears so little weight as a cohesive argument it doesn't deserve a serious response.
Overread wrote: We know the overall major part of the story; but there's ample room to set the seeds for sub-plots within that story which might setup some interesting twists that develop after the major end that we know of. Which without otherwise going back to see with story elements, would feel like they came out of nowhere.
Hopefully but I'm not convinced, personally. Given the lore from Phoenix Awakening was so lacklustre and literally everything went back to an even bigger status quo than before (somehow), I'm not holding my breath.
using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.
that said continueing the comparisons to a book, pheonix rising is the 1st chapter of a novel. typically exciting stuff happens later.
BrianDavion wrote: using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.
There was a massive demand for the HH books before they even started work on them though, I've not seen any demand for more information about what happened during the Indomitus Crusade. This has been led by GW, while the HH was requested long before A Wolf of Ash and Fire was released.
that said continueing the comparisons to a book, pheonix rising is the 1st chapter of a novel. typically exciting stuff happens later.
So Phoenix Rising is the first chapter of the novel that is Psychic Awakening? And the price of this chapter is £30? That is even less reason to buy the books then. I'm not spending £30 on a chapter of a novel where nothing interesting happens because it's early on. If true it's a slap in the face of Aeldari players. gak rules, gak lore.
I understand the (weak) analogies you're attempting here, but I don't think they fit. People have been clamouring for PROGRESSION in the story and lore of 40k. Revisiting something that has already happened is not, by definition, progression. It is holding at worst, exploration at best.
Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.
Darsath wrote: Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.
Disagree, higher quality because the rules must've actually been playtested unlike some supplements.
BrianDavion wrote: using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.
I thought the trick with the Horus Heresy series was to stretch it out endlessly for over a decade with book after pointless book?
Well on the plus side it seems like the release of this box is already dropping the price of scourges in the aftermarket - down from about $25 on ebay to $20.
Hopefully it'll be a good chance to pick up some cheap DE stuff.
Darsath wrote: Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.
Disagree, higher quality because the rules must've actually been playtested unlike some supplements.
I've been hearing that the Space Marine supplements had a lot more test playing than any other codex release. I think Frontline Gaming even confirmed it in one of their vids too.
Overread wrote: Well Tyranids are like Orks, just wiping out the main body won't have removed them. There's likely splinter fleets and hives all over the place in various states. So a lot to clean up and campaign to remove from whole systems even once the core body of the Fleet has been destroyed.
Plus Tyranids have that huge world they are building
Well there are Hive Fleet Ouroboros and Moloch approaching that area, only a tendril of Leviathan was destroyed. If it was after the Baal campaign it would allow the to do a Primaris Dante as well. [actually it would have to be the aftermath at the very least if they want to include Primaris Bolld Angels..]
Yeah with the Horus Heresy book series coming to a close, I'm sure GW is looking at ways that they can create a new point of history that they can make their next big novel releases. Those writers aren't just going to retire, they're going to be tasked with filling out the Indomitus Crusade.
Watch, in 5-10 years, the Indomitus Crusade timeline will be chock full of stories, characters, wars, twists, and all sorts of other things.
BrianDavion wrote: using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.
I thought the trick with the Horus Heresy series was to stretch it out endlessly for over a decade with book after pointless book?
well that too, but generally if people know the outcome they'll still be engaged so long as the trip is enaging. prequals certainly do make money, beyond the horus heresy we also have the star wars prequals. They got their share of bashing but I never heard "nah it's boring we know how it ends" as one
Most fiction should be about the journey and not the destination, and this especially true of television the longer it goes on, other wise "Will they survive?" becomes boring as they're in the opening credits so of course they survive. "Will they" needs to become "How will they" to maintain any level of interest.
Unfortunately GW have answered that question quite solidly: Over a long period, featuring many overpriced products.
Darsath wrote: Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.
Disagree, higher quality because the rules must've actually been playtested unlike some supplements.
I've been hearing that the Space Marine supplements had a lot more test playing than any other codex release. I think Frontline Gaming even confirmed it in one of their vids too.
Wrong type of playtesting then. Most conslder playtesting to mean finding out and fixing broken stuff. Not adding even more broken stuff
Darsath wrote: Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.
Disagree, higher quality because the rules must've actually been playtested unlike some supplements.
I've been hearing that the Space Marine supplements had a lot more test playing than any other codex release. I think Frontline Gaming even confirmed it in one of their vids too.
Wrong type of playtesting then. Most conslder playtesting to mean finding out and fixing broken stuff. Not adding even more broken stuff
The bloat is really getting to me with the numarines. I played against Salem anders today and I had to remember the following universal stuff everyone got:
-Atsknf -Beta bolt guns
-Extra attack basically all the time
-rerolls to hit and wound forever making every attack take a billion goddammn years
-Ignore ap-1
-extra AP on tons of gak from doctrines including random stuff like ap-2 assault cannons on a dang plane because...devastator doctrine?
-even MORE extra ap on flamers because salamanders
It got to the point where I just assumed I never got any armor save on anything and every die got to be rerolled. It was ludicrous.
BrianDavion wrote: using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.
There was a massive demand for the HH books before they even started work on them though, I've not seen any demand for more information about what happened during the Indomitus Crusade. This has been led by GW, while the HH was requested long before A Wolf of Ash and Fire was released.
I don't recall a massive demand to explore the Badab War in exhaustive detail, yet that remains one of FW's most well regarded products. Nobody knew Anphelion or Vraks existed as part of 40K before Imperial Armour detailed them, but plenty of folk enjoyed them just fine. But your confusion is understandable, because...
that said continueing the comparisons to a book, pheonix rising is the 1st chapter of a novel. typically exciting stuff happens later.
So Phoenix Rising is the first chapter of the novel that is Psychic Awakening? And the price of this chapter is £30? That is even less reason to buy the books then. I'm not spending £30 on a chapter of a novel where nothing interesting happens because it's early on. If true it's a slap in the face of Aeldari players. gak rules, gak lore.
I understand the (weak) analogies you're attempting here, but I don't think they fit. People have been clamouring for PROGRESSION in the story and lore of 40k. Revisiting something that has already happened is not, by definition, progression. It is holding at worst, exploration at best.
...here is the actual issue. Some people have been clamouring for "progression". Some people want an ongoing storyline. Because you are one of them, you've decided that the other potential ways of exploring the setting are invalid and unwanted, but the reality is almost certainly a bell curve where a minority of fans share your view and want an ongoing plot, a minority of fans share my view that a temporally static setting that expands in scope and depth is inherently superior to an ongoing plot when the product is participative to the degree GW's are, and the vast majority of people simply don't give the teeniest tiniest gak so long as they get a cool story accompanied by new missions & game modes and new models.
However you'll be glad to know that the apparent new status quo pleases neither of us, since your lot go longer get your ongoing plot(and I do think there was going to be one, just as I suspect the 8th-era fluff was originally going to be a lot more dramatic of a departure until the first version of AoS kinda flopped and had to go through that painful first year or so), and my lot are getting the format we wanted but not the setting we wanted. Hurrah for compromise eh?
Problem with PA isn't necessarily the lack of progression but that GW billed it as being a major event in the lore.
Which by all accounts it isn't unless volume 2 and 3 unleash something major, given its set in a period already covered.
It's like the Indomitus Crusade, it was a potential chance to launch a massive Great Crusade like story, instead it started and finished in two pages. Yep, they're filling the gaps in but it's hard to care about it, as unlike the Heresy it does not really underpin much.
AoSlore is slowly coming together, now 40k seems to be suffering from tedium (to go with the rules bloat).
the_scotsman wrote: It got to the point where I just assumed I never got any armor save on anything and every die got to be rerolled. It was ludicrous.
Yeah. The kill level of 40k is getting totally ridiculous :( Even if GW suddenly brought new codex for everybody bringing everybody to same level as IH it would not be my cup of tea. Kill power is getting absolutely bonkers. IF can get for ~1000 pts firebase that causes around 100 S5 -2 shots with D2 vs vehicles. This clears both infantry and vehicles at ease(that's dead castellan in turn with spare...). Why even take AT weapons anymore?
For necrons starting to be at point necron warriors need 3+ and point drop and immortals needs T5 and/or 2 wounds to keep up.
If GW releases v2 of necron codex wonder what they come up with. Necrons have special issue with this kill power level in that necron core rules are effectively negated with this. RP? Pointless. Living metal? Pointless. Quantum shield goes to poof with all these S5-S6 D2 shots as well.
Guess it's one way to ensure game goes fast when everything dies in 2 turns...
The indomitus crusade lacked a central monumental obstacle around which it could be fleshed out. Without the betrayal of Horus, no matter how exquisitely different alien civilizations BL authors could think of, the Great Crusade would just have been a series of planet battles which even, in the books, were quite boring next to the events that shaped the heresy. The Indomitus Crusade had no such event otherwise it would have a left bigger trail in the lore. ATM it is simply pointless to delve deeper into it - for me the moment is lost and even if suddenly a great EVIL is revealed to have been nandled during the crusade it has no further effect on the setting... again unlike the heresy which shapes the entire setting.
AoS' Malign Portents were quite enjoyable to follow with all the short stories about DOOM,DOOM,DOOOOM, but fell a little short in the conclusion. Still there was a big event at the end. The big event at the end of the Indomitus Crusade is "Everything goes back to normal more or less" which, coming to think of it, is a big thing in the setting
Yodhrin wrote: I don't recall a massive demand to explore the Badab War in exhaustive detail, yet that remains one of FW's most well regarded products. Nobody knew Anphelion or Vraks existed as part of 40K before Imperial Armour detailed them, but plenty of folk enjoyed them just fine. But your confusion is understandable, because...
...here is the actual issue. Some people have been clamouring for "progression". Some people want an ongoing storyline. Because you are one of them, you've decided that the other potential ways of exploring the setting are invalid and unwanted
I haven’t decided anything actually - 8th edition is the most popular and successful edition of 40k ever (if the numbers are to be believed) and it just so happens to be the first edition where the story has progressed. Gathering Storm was a hugely successful campaign and that did the same thing. People are voting with their wallets.
There is also the general consensus that Vigilus was a poor campaign and had a poor story because nothing actually happened. As is so typical in GW lore - we simply returned to a status quo.
but the reality is almost certainly a bell curve where a minority of fans share your view and want an ongoing plot, a minority of fans share my view that a temporally static setting that expands in scope and depth is inherently superior to an ongoing plot when the product is participative to the degree GW's are, and the vast majority of people simply don't give the teeniest tiniest gak so long as they get a cool story accompanied by new missions & game modes and new models.
No doubt you’re right in that there’s a mix of individuals with different wishes for the lore of 40k and how it should be delivered but I really don’t see why one method prevents the other. There is nothing stopping GW progressing the story while exploring the setting in more detail and depth.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I haven’t decided anything actually - 8th edition is the most popular and successful edition of 40k ever (if the numbers are to be believed) and it just so happens to be the first edition where the story has progressed.
8th is definitely suffering from hardcore bloat. There's a big part of me that feels like the game would be considerably more balanced and smoother if played in a start-of-edition-Index style "datasheets only" mode.
8th is definitely suffering from hardcore bloat. There's a big part of me that feels like the game would be considerably more balanced and smoother if played in a start-of-edition-Index style "datasheets only" mode.
Or we could have an.actual.rule book with rules instead of a 5 page pamphlet...
An Actual Englishman wrote: I haven’t decided anything actually - 8th edition is the most popular and successful edition of 40k ever (if the numbers are to be believed) and it just so happens to be the first edition where the story has progressed. Gathering Storm was a hugely successful campaign and that did the same thing. People are voting with their wallets.
Yes, yes. And Sisters will never get any new release while Orks are incredibly popular and should get all the new releases. You always take your opinion as everyone's opinion...
I just tried out Master of Mutagens/Dark Technomancers against Tau. It was a bloodbath. I moved up with everything T1, including running and fire&fading a unit of 3 Talos so they were almost in the Tau lines (moved 19") and fired away at Drones with the Venoms, the D2 made clearing the shield drones much more efficient. On his turn, he used all 3 Riptides to wipe out the Taloi that were almost on top of him and do a chunk of damage to my Craftworlders who were following up behind the DE (I think he took out a wave serpent and badly damaged a second). On my turn 2 the Venoms flew danger close so the Liquefier Wracks inside could unload onto the riptides.... it was horrendous. Between the Venoms and the Liquifiers, I did over 30 wounds to them, killing 2 and mauling the third, which was finished off by fire from the remaining Craftworlders. I took 4 mortal wounds across my 5 venoms and lost 3 wracks, but that seems well worth the trade. With the 'tides dead my opponent conceded. Neither of us had been expecting that as the 2+ armour id really nice against the Ap- of the venoms and the Liquefiers only wound on 5s with DT.
It's almost as if the goal of story progression wasn't to tell a good story, but to create a new setting where everybody would have to repurchase their space marine army.
Drager wrote: I just tried out Master of Mutagens/Dark Technomancers against Tau. It was a bloodbath. I moved up with everything T1, including running and fire&fading a unit of 3 Talos so they were almost in the Tau lines (moved 19") and fired away at Drones with the Venoms, the D2 made clearing the shield drones much more efficient. On his turn, he used all 3 Riptides to wipe out the Taloi that were almost on top of him and do a chunk of damage to my Craftworlders who were following up behind the DE (I think he took out a wave serpent and badly damaged a second). On my turn 2 the Venoms flew danger close so the Liquefier Wracks inside could unload onto the riptides.... it was horrendous. Between the Venoms and the Liquifiers, I did over 30 wounds to them, killing 2 and mauling the third, which was finished off by fire from the remaining Craftworlders. I took 4 mortal wounds across my 5 venoms and lost 3 wracks, but that seems well worth the trade. With the 'tides dead my opponent conceded. Neither of us had been expecting that as the 2+ armour id really nice against the Ap- of the venoms and the Liquefiers only wound on 5s with DT.
I kind of have the feeling that whoever was responsible for the Covens traits straight up forgot that you can give vehicles the <Covens> tag. Remove Venoms (or Raiders, or Reapers, or Tantali...) from the equation and the various combos getting thrown around sound a lot less dangerous.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: It's almost as if the goal of story progression wasn't to tell a good story, but to create a new setting where everybody would have to repurchase their space marine army.
you're not entirely wrong there, story progression is done to justify new models. it's a LOT easier from a suspension of disbelive angle to introduce a new tank and say "the new tank from the find of Cawl is now becoming a popular tank with the Imperial Guard" then it is to say "this tank has been in sue all along we've never mentioned it"
The fact of the matter is stagnet tech only works in a world that's not been fleshed out eneugh that they can conceviably add new things without completely fething with suspnesion of disbelief
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: It's almost as if the goal of story progression wasn't to tell a good story, but to create a new setting where everybody would have to repurchase their space marine army.
you're not entirely wrong there, story progression is done to justify new models. it's a LOT easier from a suspension of disbelive angle to introduce a new tank and say "the new tank from the find of Cawl is now becoming a popular tank with the Imperial Guard" then it is to say "this tank has been in sue all along we've never mentioned it"
The fact of the matter is stagnet tech only works in a world that's not been fleshed out eneugh that they can conceviably add new things without completely fething with suspnesion of disbelief
That's nonsense though, because the only reason someone could fail to suspend their disbelief in such cases is if they completely failed to appreciate the scale of the setting. The Imperium is ludicrously large and filled with as yet unexplored variety. I mean, look at Gaunt's Ghosts - just the Sabbat Worlds Sector has what, a dozen or more "new" vehicle patterns? Multiple new Chaos subfactions with unique "units"? If they can add entire new factions to the setting, casting the odd additional vehicle or unit for the existing ones as somehow beyond the bounds of reason and plausibility is just daft.
The problem was never with the the Imperium, or the Guard, or the idea of stagnant tech generally - the only faction the "oh no yeah we've totes had these all along" approach didn't really work for was Marines, which only serves to reinforce his point that GW have gotten so high on their own supply they'll chuck big parts of their own setting just to keep harvesting dem sweet sweet Marinebux at the highest rate possible.
EDIT: There is actually one more issue with the "there all along" approach, but it's not an inherent problem, it's one created by GW's own desire to increasingly focus their marketing & storytelling efforts on their own OC Donut Steel characters and armies. "There all along" isn't a problem for players because people can simply amend the fluff for Their Dudes to say they were supplied with that vehicle or thing, it's only when GW are forcing themselves to cram every new addition into the Cadian 8th or whatever faction the Studio army is painted up as that it begins to stretch credulity.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: It's almost as if the goal of story progression wasn't to tell a good story, but to create a new setting where everybody would have to repurchase their space marine army.
Hey, what has Age of Sigmar to do with this?
...oh, never mind.
Seriously though, the whole primaris thing is quite ingenious just because of the reasons you mentioned.
We are used to stupid GW marketing ploys, like new super cheese rules for new models, or scrapping Fantasy Battle.
Introducing Primaris is some next level bussiness developement, considering.
The problem was never with the the Imperium, or the Guard, or the idea of stagnant tech generally - the only faction the "oh no yeah we've totes had these all along" approach didn't really work for was Marines,
Even then, that's a problem of GWs own making. As you're no doubt aware, originally (like RT & space marine era) marines used a whole range of war machines and gear, what you saw in the model ranges was just the most commonly deployed. RT even had rules for making your own vehicles. The scope for 'yourdudes' was endless and was most of the fun.
Then over time, they started to more rigidly codify marine forces (literally) and a lot of the scope for invention and imagination was lost. This emerging drive to exhaustively define all aspects of the universe and its factions got worse over time, aggravated by things like the chapterhouse lawsuit and a vocal part of the fanbase that require 'storylines' and 'main characters' for everything to revolve around, rather than just being content to explore the setting with their imagination.
It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.
“Age of Sigmar” isn't a reference for the fact people who like a story with main characters and progression than a wide, static setting are a majority.
Not anymore than previous 40k was a reference of the opposite.
Age of Sigmar is just showing us what GW believe will make them most money, not what most people want. GW can have… weird ideas.
I think overall I'm sold on the idea of PA backtracking with the Crusade a bit if you have the right mindset. Emperor's Spears and Andy Clark's recent appearance on Voxcast really solidified for me just how dire things were for the Imperium writ large following the Schism. Given how desperate and bleak things were, I'm definitely sold on the idea of exploring that era in more depth, with some mild-to-moderate plot advancement by the end.
Also, just for the sake of pointing out the obvious, people keep pointing out GW doing what it does for money as if it's a bad thing. But that's literally what a company does. It's legally obligated to do everything in it's power to make as much money for it's shareholders as it possibly can.
If you've got issues with the fundamental concepts of capitalism that's one thing, but harping on GW for doing what a company does seems silly to me.
By the way have I mentioned how tasty this Kool-Aid is?
Nurglitch wrote:It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.
It's like people forgot that their own imagination exists. or they forgot they could use it. or people are just becoming more and more reliant on what others come up with(like netlisting).
Nurglitch wrote:It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.
It's like people forgot that their own imagination exists. or they forgot they could use it. or people are just becoming more and more reliant on what others come up with(like netlisting).
It's more that its a lot easier to have fun and play games when the game itself has a baseline rules system that works. Even games as kids had rules, they were just darn simple. Plus you could end up with all your own rules to games but they'd work within your group and finding groups was easier since you were all entrapped in the same place (school) for most of the day.
For gaming groups its a LOT easier to get people on board with a single working rules set that works out of the box. You can build an army, set expectations and come to game without a huge problem. IT makes getting pick-up games a lot easier which is very important as not everyone can pre-plan into fine detail or wants to spend over 30mins setting the game up and not even getting a model onto the table.
Once you've established a firm foundation its actually a lot easier to then use your imagination to build right off the top of it. Because with a solid system you can tweak it and have a better idea what will happen as a result.
With a less well built system you can end up losing time just getting the rules to work as you think they should; which might result in disagreements and time lost with your opponent. With no single rules system you fast end up ahving to teach everyone you play how to play your own system. It slices the possibilities of inter-club competitions down almost entirely unless you're a key member in more than one local group.
Think of the rules of a game not like restrictions, but like the building blocks of a language. Well constructed it allows almost infinite freedom when applied in the right way. Done poorly and you limit creativity because it becomes harder to convey what you mean.
Nurglitch wrote:It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.
It's like people forgot that their own imagination exists. or they forgot they could use it. or people are just becoming more and more reliant on what others come up with(like netlisting).
Its more like if you're paying for a ruleset, it ought to be good and useful.
'People are just...' is just sloppy thinking, or a veiled 'don't like things I don't like/everyone should like what I like'
Hellebore wrote: Having seen the exarch powers, and the data sheets, I am hoping that Jain Zar will have some kind of access to the exarch powers.
Neither the banshee sheet or Zar's sheet mentions exarch powers.
So hopefully she will be able to swap out.
Id much prefer if she could change hers at will during the game as she presumably came up with them, but that's probably too wishful...
Those that have already had preview copies already confirmed that is not possible.
Does that mean she gets to choose one to replace way shout,v or that she just doesn't have access to them at all?
She doesn't get to do anything. There are no choices available for her.
Yes it doesn't make sense. Nor does it make sense IMO that an Exarch with Piercing Strike can end up with higher Strength hits than Jain Zar.
...Literally the dumbest thing from this release.
If they allowed her to decide which exarch power she had active at the beginning of the turn, then she would actually be good and could decide to actually have an invulnerable save (FNP).
Dur dur I invent powers by can't use them dur dur.
That's like a single line they could add to Phoenix Lord profiles that would remove all the issues I have with them
still a rumor. Part of me thinks chaos vs Black Templar would be a strange choice as assuming it gets a box set thats two box sets in november. at the same time, GW's released a marine supplement a month pretty regularly and apparently this book'll be the black templars supplement equivilant.
Nurglitch wrote:It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.
It's like people forgot that their own imagination exists. or they forgot they could use it. or people are just becoming more and more reliant on what others come up with(like netlisting).
Yes because NOBODY would ever have figured out any broken lists ever with how poor GW releases rules!
Stop attacking this imaginary "netlisting" and attack the core problem itself: shoddy rules writing.
If nothing else, it strikes me as astonishingly unlikely that volume 3 is releasing in December. I'll be quite surprised if Chaos vs BT is in November given the Sisters release, but it's at least plausible. GW don't do major releases that close to Christmas for lots of consistent logistics reasons.
I don't think SW vs Orks is too unlikely though, assuming that the purpose of Psychic Awakening seems to be to shift a bunch of finecast to plastic. SWs still have stacks of characters to redo (and a Primaris Ragnar seems a shoe-in). And Orks need the plastic Deffkopters, a plastic warboss kit and plastic grots badly enough that it would fill up a box.
The Phazer wrote: And Orks need the plastic Deffkopters, a plastic warboss kit and plastic grots badly enough that it would fill up a box.
They could just release Grukk as a generic warboss and we've had plastic grots for ages. We do still need (or at least want) plastic deffkoptas, more characters (big mek with KFF, any bike characters, weirdboy, mega-armour warboss, any special characters) and various units which are now mostly made by kit-bashing (tankbustaz, kommandos, nob bikers). Characters and kit-bashable units which don't have official plastic models seem like decent candidates for a box set.
If nothing else, it strikes me as astonishingly unlikely that volume 3 is releasing in December. I'll be quite surprised if Chaos vs BT is in November given the Sisters release, but it's at least plausible. GW don't do major releases that close to Christmas for lots of consistent logistics reasons.
I don't think SW vs Orks is too unlikely though, assuming that the purpose of Psychic Awakening seems to be to shift a bunch of finecast to plastic. SWs still have stacks of characters to redo (and a Primaris Ragnar seems a shoe-in). And Orks need the plastic Deffkopters, a plastic warboss kit and plastic grots badly enough that it would fill up a box.
just because they're needed doesn't mean they'll get them all, I mean it's not like Eldar saw a complete range revamp of their aspect warriors.
If nothing else, it strikes me as astonishingly unlikely that volume 3 is releasing in December. I'll be quite surprised if Chaos vs BT is in November given the Sisters release, but it's at least plausible. GW don't do major releases that close to Christmas for lots of consistent logistics reasons.
I don't think SW vs Orks is too unlikely though, assuming that the purpose of Psychic Awakening seems to be to shift a bunch of finecast to plastic. SWs still have stacks of characters to redo (and a Primaris Ragnar seems a shoe-in). And Orks need the plastic Deffkopters, a plastic warboss kit and plastic grots badly enough that it would fill up a box.
just because they're needed doesn't mean they'll get them all, I mean it's not like Eldar saw a complete range revamp of their aspect warriors.
I very much doubt they'll get all of them too, and those were just indicative examples (as pointed out above, Tankbustas are another example). But I think the point remains that they can make some progress on it, and that's probably all the justification GW need.
If nothing else, it strikes me as astonishingly unlikely that volume 3 is releasing in December. I'll be quite surprised if Chaos vs BT is in November given the Sisters release, but it's at least plausible. GW don't do major releases that close to Christmas for lots of consistent logistics reasons.
I don't think SW vs Orks is too unlikely though, assuming that the purpose of Psychic Awakening seems to be to shift a bunch of finecast to plastic. SWs still have stacks of characters to redo (and a Primaris Ragnar seems a shoe-in). And Orks need the plastic Deffkopters, a plastic warboss kit and plastic grots badly enough that it would fill up a box.
It could be at the end of December, just after Christmas for the 3rd volume- they've done that before especially given it looks like these releases are towards the end of the month. If they are just a book and a box set its pretty easy to set them into a one week release window so it wouldn't surprise me if they do come out once a month. A book, 2 kits and 2 characters is a small release really- they might not all be boxed sets.
Geifer wrote: There's only so many combinations for Marines versus ... boxes.
There are literally hundreds. I believe that raven guard, imperial (and crimson) fists, iron hands, salamanders, white scars and grey knights have never appeared in a box set, nor have any of the traitor forces except the death guard. That's 48 possible combinations of marine-vs-marine which would give two completely new forces. I think every xenos army has appeared in at least one set, but guard or 'agents of the emperor' vs. traitors might be viable, giving us a few more options. Once you start getting into armies which have already been done but in combinations not seen before, you have a wealth of options.
That said, Space Wolves are apparently the most popular divergent marine force and they are probably going to be the first to get unique primaris units, plus they have an abundance of special characters to do. Orks have some glaring holes in their range and the sculptors seem to enjoy making monopose oddities for them, so they seem like a moderately good bet too.
Ratius wrote: SW vs Orks is a bit.....uninventive. Didnt we already have a boxed set of them a while back?
might not even be a boxed set. that said if it is maybe it means new Boyz?
Gosh no. Current ones are just fine, don't need the inevitable biggification and price hike and there's loooooooot more pressing issues orks need than new boyz box making collecting orks even more expensive.
The Phazer wrote: And Orks need the plastic Deffkopters, a plastic warboss kit and plastic grots badly enough that it would fill up a box.
And grots are even less in need of a kit! Especially seeing how many you need. Price hike last thing grots need.
Ratius wrote: SW vs Orks is a bit.....uninventive. Didnt we already have a boxed set of them a while back?
might not even be a boxed set. that said if it is maybe it means new Boyz?
Gosh no. Current ones are just fine, don't need the inevitable biggification and price hike and there's loooooooot more pressing issues orks need than new boyz box making collecting orks even more expensive.
This. I'd rather have GW some more plastic aspect warriors than a new boyz kit, and I don't even own a single eldar model.
Yeah, with most of the Ork range still being in finecast having new boys is the lowest priority. Boys are fine. If you don't like thicc orks that's your problem.
Geifer wrote: There's only so many combinations for Marines versus ... boxes.
There are literally hundreds. I believe that raven guard, imperial (and crimson) fists, iron hands, salamanders, white scars and grey knights have never appeared in a box set, nor have any of the traitor forces except the death guard. That's 48 possible combinations of marine-vs-marine which would give two completely new forces. I think every xenos army has appeared in at least one set, but guard or 'agents of the emperor' vs. traitors might be viable, giving us a few more options. Once you start getting into armies which have already been done but in combinations not seen before, you have a wealth of options.
That said, Space Wolves are apparently the most popular divergent marine force and they are probably going to be the first to get unique primaris units, plus they have an abundance of special characters to do. Orks have some glaring holes in their range and the sculptors seem to enjoy making monopose oddities for them, so they seem like a moderately good bet too.
Mathematically the number of 40k factions allows for a wealth of options, yes. It's not really what GW does, though. What were the last boxes that pitted Marines against something else? Ultramarines versus Black Legion. Ultramarines versus Eldar. Space Wolves versus Genestealers. Ultramarines versus Death Guard. The list goes on as we move back to 7th ed and I think the most interesting one there would be Deathwatch versus Eldar and Genestealers respectively.
The problem is that even in spite of a few fringe cases, GW rarely ever moves beyond the Big Four. And since special characters aside Ultramarines just used to use the same models as most other chapters, and with Primaris extending even to Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels, you're just not going to see a lot of variety in the models themselves and not much beyond the four colors of those chapters.
Also, Chaos Marines are not the same as Marines in this regard. Especially these days GW is very clear in their depiction of good guy loyalists and bad guy traitors, both in the background and in the visual design of the models.
We are getting battle boxes without Marines in them these days, few though they may be. That's great and it opens the door to seeing Imperial Guard face off against the enemies of mankind instead of Marines as usual (though I'd prefer if maybe GW could release a new plastic regiment for that one, please). But in the majority of cases when you do see Marines in battle boxes, it's one of the Big Four. If something good (other than those neat chapter upgrade sprues) were to come out of the chapter supplement deluge, I'd hope it's a broader spread of Marines featured in battle boxes. But until that actually happens, I have no reason to believe GW is going to change policy.
Which takes me back to what I originally said, the number of variations is fairly low. If not in theory, it definitely is in practical terms.
Mathematically the number of 40k factions allows for a wealth of options, yes. It's not really what GW does, though. What were the last boxes that pitted Marines against something else? Ultramarines versus Black Legion. Ultramarines versus Eldar. Space Wolves versus Genestealers. Ultramarines versus Death Guard. The list goes on as we move back to 7th ed and I think the most interesting one there would be Deathwatch versus Eldar and Genestealers respectively.
while technically not a battlebox, but deathwatch overkill already was a deathwatch vs. genestealer cult box
Mathematically the number of 40k factions allows for a wealth of options, yes. It's not really what GW does, though. What were the last boxes that pitted Marines against something else? Ultramarines versus Black Legion. Ultramarines versus Eldar. Space Wolves versus Genestealers. Ultramarines versus Death Guard. The list goes on as we move back to 7th ed and I think the most interesting one there would be Deathwatch versus Eldar and Genestealers respectively.
while technically not a battlebox, but deathwatch overkill already was a deathwatch vs. genestealer cult box
Fresh French rumours- Christmas releases including Army boxes for 6 40k factions SW, BA and Nids included.
Translation via google translate-
"Sister of battles:
The first box including the new army figures will be available between November 10 and 20 and the collector version will exist in French.
There will be no further news until February / March 2020.
Necromunda:
New Necromunda box including a new band and with new rules.
Battleforce Christmas:
There will be 10 different Battelforce.
145 euros / piece
4 for AOS: Nighthaunt / Skaven / Stormcast / Goblins
6 for 40k: T'au, Drukhari, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Chaos, Tyranids
Romans:
All Horus Heresy novels are back in Hard Cover Omnibus
Accessories:
A box with 5 painting handles
A box with a handle under layer for under bed 50 figurines
MS:
Start collecting Vanguard
Chaos:
Start collecting Ombrelance"
Dunno what "Ombrelance " is .. he also went on to say the Tyranid box contents set is "nice". So possibly Christmas army boxes with separate books elsewhere ? Perhaps they aren't going to do campaign boxes with every book.
Nurglitch wrote:It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.
It's like people forgot that their own imagination exists. or they forgot they could use it. or people are just becoming more and more reliant on what others come up with(like netlisting).
Yes because NOBODY would ever have figured out any broken lists ever with how poor GW releases rules!
Stop attacking this imaginary "netlisting" and attack the core problem itself: shoddy rules writing.
Better start buying the Shadowspear halves you want off ebay now. Last I checked, you could get one for around $60ish. Which is a shame, seeing as how I bought the chaos side for $85-90 XD
look at the sw primaris sc box, its basicly a generic marine box with an upgrade sprue, they might do the same for one or both of the marine christmas boxes
Nurglitch wrote:It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.
It's like people forgot that their own imagination exists. or they forgot they could use it. or people are just becoming more and more reliant on what others come up with(like netlisting).
Yes because NOBODY would ever have figured out any broken lists ever with how poor GW releases rules!
Stop attacking this imaginary "netlisting" and attack the core problem itself: shoddy rules writing.
I think you missed my point.
Which was, that since netlisting is a thing, it's far easier to have zero knowledge of how to actually build a list without anyone telling them how.
If the rules were so shoddy how is it that many, many, many players have no problems with the rules and how the game functions?
Back on topic
I hope that the eldar box doesnt set the precedent for future PA sets. if they just include 1 or 2 new models and are filling them with "filler", this will end up being lamer that scheiss.
If the story is as light on actual consequences/stakes this just doesn't bode well for the rest.
Nevelon wrote: They could put in the chapter specific HQs, or units. Even if they don’t, the upgrade sprues might be counted as part of the value of the box.
Still might be worth it. Will be interesting to see full contents when that gets leaked.
I assumed the "MS start collecting Vanguard" is space Marine stuff. releasing a special marine box is proably a bit much if we're also getting a new start collecting box.
this is also good as it means at least when Shadowspear runs out people will have a way to get supressors and they won't be a "yeah you missed box x so screw you" unit.
Nevelon wrote: They could put in the chapter specific HQs, or units. Even if they don’t, the upgrade sprues might be counted as part of the value of the box.
Still might be worth it. Will be interesting to see full contents when that gets leaked.
I assumed the "MS start collecting Vanguard" is space Marine stuff. releasing a special marine box is proably a bit much if we're also getting a new start collecting box.
this is also good as it means at least when Shadowspear runs out people will have a way to get supressors and they won't be a "yeah you missed box x so screw you" unit.
Would not make a shabby start collecting box. You can get the Lib/Captain seperate, so I’d not expect to see them bundled, but if they are I’d grab a box instantly.
Nevelon wrote: They could put in the chapter specific HQs, or units. Even if they don’t, the upgrade sprues might be counted as part of the value of the box.
Still might be worth it. Will be interesting to see full contents when that gets leaked.
I assumed the "MS start collecting Vanguard" is space Marine stuff. releasing a special marine box is proably a bit much if we're also getting a new start collecting box.
this is also good as it means at least when Shadowspear runs out people will have a way to get supressors and they won't be a "yeah you missed box x so screw you" unit.
Would not make a shabby start collecting box. You can get the Lib/Captain seperate, so I’d not expect to see them bundled, but if they are I’d grab a box instantly.
yeah my guess is thats the box. it's actually a pretty nice box and I'd be tempted by it. Supressors and Eliminators are some of the best Primaris units right now.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I won't lie, I don't even have use for them in Deathwatch yet and I'd be pretty tempted to pick up that SC box if those are the contents.
speaking as someone who collects both marines and chaos marines I think the chaos box would be the better of the two,
you're looking at 2 CSM posssed, 10 CSMs, a venom crawler and 2 oblits.
granted I'm a bit concerned as this isn't a typical SC box, but I can't see how they could cut the sprues any differant way so.. I dunno..
AngryAngel80 wrote: I won't lie, I don't even have use for them in Deathwatch yet and I'd be pretty tempted to pick up that SC box if those are the contents.
speaking as someone who collects both marines and chaos marines I think the chaos box would be the better of the two,
you're looking at 2 CSM posssed, 10 CSMs, a venom crawler and 2 oblits.
granted I'm a bit concerned as this isn't a typical SC box, but I can't see how they could cut the sprues any differant way so.. I dunno..
I do hope that we get full sprues though.
I can't stand the shadowspear squad of csm.
look at the sw primaris sc box, its basicly a generic marine box with an upgrade sprue, they might do the same for one or both of the marine christmas boxes
Generic marine box with completely unusable HQ (gear illegal for all SM but wolfwolves) kinda killing the point for anyone who doesn't play SW. Discount is so low you might not even bother without usable character. I am puzzled why they didn't made DASC instead, at least their loadout problem (plasma pistol on Lt) can be easily worked around by swapping the pistol to bolt one or sword to fist, making him legal for other SM.
GaroRobe wrote: They did something similar with the AOS starter set (SC v K)
They released both sides as Start Collecting. Though, I want to say it wasn't every model. I think some of the bloodreavers were missing iirc.
I'm not expecting that to be an issue with this stuff. Mixed sprues make it hard to split things out unless they're willing to remove the items from sprues themselves.
look at the sw primaris sc box, its basicly a generic marine box with an upgrade sprue, they might do the same for one or both of the marine christmas boxes
Generic marine box with completely unusable HQ (gear illegal for all SM but wolfwolves) kinda killing the point for anyone who doesn't play SW. Discount is so low you might not even bother without usable character. I am puzzled why they didn't made DASC instead, at least their loadout problem (plasma pistol on Lt) can be easily worked around by swapping the pistol to bolt one or sword to fist, making him legal for other SM.
more importantly though a SC box averages about 100 bucks, netting you 1 HQ, 1 troop and one "special thingy"
why on earth would anyone buy a SC vanilla marine box when you could just buy Know no Fear for the same price?
I can tell you one reason, shoulder pads. I had to cut and saw and file off shoulder pads from starter marines for Deathwatch, wasn't super fun. I have Space wolves, so the character and upgrades worked well but used the models for Deathwatch reinforcements with free to place shoulder pads.
That is one of the only reasons I would say the SC box is better than the know no fear box. As well I haven't tried my hand at cutting the bolt rifles to place the right bits for the different variants on the starter primaris marines so not sure how hard that would be to make them the appropriate type I'd want.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I can tell you one reason, shoulder pads. I had to cut and saw and file off shoulder pads from starter marines for Deathwatch, wasn't super fun. I have Space wolves, so the character and upgrades worked well but used the models for Deathwatch reinforcements with free to place shoulder pads.
That is one of the only reasons I would say the SC box is better than the know no fear box. As well I haven't tried my hand at cutting the bolt rifles to place the right bits for the different variants on the starter primaris marines so not sure how hard that would be to make them the appropriate type I'd want.
true the differant rifle types are actually useful now, although the standard rapid fire is useful eneugh that you're proably gonna have a squad or two of them,
Battle sisters, astra militarum, alpha legion, night lords, emperor children,word bearers, world eaters, iron warriors,salamanders, white scars, black templars..
Battle sisters, astra militarum, alpha legion, night lords, emperor children, world eaters, iron warriors, black templars..
if they drop world eaters AND emperors children codexes and models on us I'm gonna be so happy
Please oh please oh please let's see new Berserkers and Noise Marines!
Unlikely, give the release schedule is approximately 1 month from announcement to delivery and both new EC/WE kits and codexes would likely have much more build up.
Probably a vague mention for the factions that aren't SoB with the focus on SoB primarily on their full release.
Wonder if it will will be a Sister v Chaos boxset. Can't imagine them giving us a sister battle box and a boxset in a short time frame, though after all this time, it could be a popular move. Maybe that chaos sorcerer from the old rumor engine will be the big bad for the chaos half.
GaroRobe wrote: Wonder if it will will be a Sister v Chaos boxset. Can't imagine them giving us a sister battle box and a boxset in a short time frame, though after all this time, it could be a popular move. Maybe that chaos sorcerer from the old rumor engine will be the big bad for the chaos half.
The rumour is BT vs Chaos (could be Daemons, or CSM I guess) boxed set.
Unlikely, give the release schedule is approximately 1 month from announcement to delivery and both new EC/WE kits and codexes would likely have much more build up.
Probably a vague mention for the factions that aren't SoB with the focus on SoB primarily on their full release.
Something like Vigilus book 1 I'm guessing.
Your probably right but....
Book one gave us two new character models and two new unit kits. The Sisters are getting a full release regardless of the book and the World eaters already have a signature character in plastic. So assuming book two has about the same number of releases, Berserkers and Noise Marines would cover the two unit kits. While the EC and BT(+upgrade pack because loyalist SM) get the two characters.
Whatever happens november will be packed in terms of release with SoB codex, BT and maybe something for chaos.
I might be a little pessimist but I don't really think chaos will get the awaited berzerker / noise marine but will rather get a kit for the obliterators and the venomcrawler.
I'm expecting more for Aeldari whenever their redone book comes out. They're pretty clearly working on it too, since the "not Alaitoc" Craftworld bit has the same wording(12" or further, unit is counted as in cover) as the Stealthy successor trait for SM(which in and of itself is the not Raven Guard trait, minus the "if in cover and not a vehicle, -1 to be hit" caveat).
I don't expect much in the way of actual full-on kit releases for this. The majority of what was shown via icons already came out via the updated Marine book and we already knew about the Sisters stuff coming too. I'm thinking it will probably be mostly upgrade kits for the Marines and maybe a new Basilisk for the Guard.
A Black Templar vs. CSM or A Sisters vs. CSM box would have me interested.
I hoping if we get new kits we get a new basic infantry kit for the guard.....those Cadians looks so bad. Even reworking of the current Cadian to the proportions of the Command Squad would be great.
More like as Kan said, it will be a BT marine upgrade kit, and hopefully a few CSM upgrade kits.
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, I think anyone expecting full range revamps as part of this is going to be sorely disappointed.
I agree with you, though I would hardly call a new box of Guard Infantry, a box of Khorne Berserkers, or a box of Noise Marines a full range revamp. In reality we will probably just get a BT upgrade kit and nothing more.
Unlikely, give the release schedule is approximately 1 month from announcement to delivery and both new EC/WE kits and codexes would likely have much more build up.
Probably a vague mention for the factions that aren't SoB with the focus on SoB primarily on their full release.
Something like Vigilus book 1 I'm guessing.
Your probably right but....
Book one gave us two new character models and two new unit kits. The Sisters are getting a full release regardless of the book and the World eaters already have a signature character in plastic. So assuming book two has about the same number of releases, Berserkers and Noise Marines would cover the two unit kits. While the EC and BT(+upgrade pack because loyalist SM) get the two characters.
EC and World Eaters would make the most sense to be full releases on the terms of DG and TS.
I could see BT being a new unit, with a primaris version of the crusader squad and emperors champion, while maybe chaos cultists/traitor guard and maybe the traitor command sprue from Blackstone fortress.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm expecting more for Aeldari whenever their redone book comes out. They're pretty clearly working on it too, since the "not Alaitoc" Craftworld bit has the same wording(12" or further, unit is counted as in cover) as the Stealthy successor trait for SM(which in and of itself is the not Raven Guard trait, minus the "if in cover and not a vehicle, -1 to be hit" caveat).
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, I think anyone expecting full range revamps as part of this is going to be sorely disappointed.
I agree with you, though I would hardly call a new box of Guard Infantry, a box of Khorne Berserkers, or a box of Noise Marines a full range revamp. In reality we will probably just get a BT upgrade kit and nothing more.
Nah, they've stated there will be model releases.
I'm suspecting no battle box but instead smaller releases but a decent chunk more of them than the Blood of the Phoenix set.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm expecting more for Aeldari whenever their redone book comes out. They're pretty clearly working on it too, since the "not Alaitoc" Craftworld bit has the same wording(12" or further, unit is counted as in cover) as the Stealthy successor trait for SM(which in and of itself is the not Raven Guard trait, minus the "if in cover and not a vehicle, -1 to be hit" caveat).
Oh yes it's obvious. As clear as mud that!
If you can't figure out that the "Successor Craftworlds" version of Alaitoc having a wording literally copy/pasted from the Successor Chapters version of the Raven Guard trait might be a significant tell that they're working on an updated codex, that's on you.
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, I think anyone expecting full range revamps as part of this is going to be sorely disappointed.
I agree with you, though I would hardly call a new box of Guard Infantry, a box of Khorne Berserkers, or a box of Noise Marines a full range revamp. In reality we will probably just get a BT upgrade kit and nothing more.
Nah, they've stated there will be model releases.
I'm suspecting no battle box but instead smaller releases but a decent chunk more of them than the Blood of the Phoenix set.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm expecting more for Aeldari whenever their redone book comes out. They're pretty clearly working on it too, since the "not Alaitoc" Craftworld bit has the same wording(12" or further, unit is counted as in cover) as the Stealthy successor trait for SM(which in and of itself is the not Raven Guard trait, minus the "if in cover and not a vehicle, -1 to be hit" caveat).
Oh yes it's obvious. As clear as mud that!
If you can't figure out that the "Successor Craftworlds" version of Alaitoc having a wording literally copy/pasted from the Successor Chapters version of the Raven Guard trait might be a significant tell that they're working on an updated codex, that's on you.
But hey, keep your snark going.
in addition to that there's the fact that GW didn't release those minis as stand alone. doesn't take a genius to figure out that GW'll release them seperately with a eldar codex (as well as possiably some new minis) in a few months. This is GW's MO. we saw it with Shadowspear, we saw it with Forge Bane (which heralded a new nercron and Imperial Knights codex)
we saw it with tooth and claw (which ehralded both space wolves and GSCs)
Good to know there will be model releases. I'm hoping they do what they did with the last release and update old models that really need it (Guard, Berserkers, etc) rather than do something new.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm expecting more for Aeldari whenever their redone book comes out. They're pretty clearly working on it too, since the "not Alaitoc" Craftworld bit has the same wording(12" or further, unit is counted as in cover) as the Stealthy successor trait for SM(which in and of itself is the not Raven Guard trait, minus the "if in cover and not a vehicle, -1 to be hit" caveat).
Oh yes it's obvious. As clear as mud that!
If you can't figure out that the "Successor Craftworlds" version of Alaitoc having a wording literally copy/pasted from the Successor Chapters version of the Raven Guard trait might be a significant tell that they're working on an updated codex, that's on you.
But hey, keep your snark going.
Thats really, really poor reasoning.
I'm not saying they wont be getting a new codex, a friend of a friend who works at GW says they will be out early next year with about 5 unit releases (remains to be seen how accurate that is), but claiming a single sentence for the build-your-own-craftworld traits in a book where all the Craftworlds rules were quite clearly phoned in by the intern is terrible logic. Either that or the next Craftworlds codex is going to be even worse than the current one.
EC and World Eaters would make the most sense to be full releases on the terms of DG and TS.
Oh they should totally get fully independent ranges in the same vein as the DG and TS. But its not impossible for GW to use this chance to get a couple of units out there early that can also be used by the core CSM codex. And its a bit odd that the EC get some attention in this book given the state of there models(unless GW are going to lean into not all EC being Noise Marines). That said I agree its unlikely to happen with this book.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm expecting more for Aeldari whenever their redone book comes out. They're pretty clearly working on it too, since the "not Alaitoc" Craftworld bit has the same wording(12" or further, unit is counted as in cover) as the Stealthy successor trait for SM(which in and of itself is the not Raven Guard trait, minus the "if in cover and not a vehicle, -1 to be hit" caveat).
Oh yes it's obvious. As clear as mud that!
If you can't figure out that the "Successor Craftworlds" version of Alaitoc having a wording literally copy/pasted from the Successor Chapters version of the Raven Guard trait might be a significant tell that they're working on an updated codex, that's on you.
But hey, keep your snark going.
Thats really, really poor reasoning.
I'm not saying they wont be getting a new codex, a friend of a friend who works at GW says they will be out early next year with about 5 unit releases (remains to be seen how accurate that is), but claiming a single sentence for the build-your-own-craftworld traits in a book where all the Craftworlds rules were quite clearly phoned in by the intern is terrible logic. Either that or the next Craftworlds codex is going to be even worse than the current one.
I agree, that alone is poor reasoning, but it stacks with other info as well as GW's general trends, to suggest an upcoming codex release.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm expecting more for Aeldari whenever their redone book comes out. They're pretty clearly working on it too, since the "not Alaitoc" Craftworld bit has the same wording(12" or further, unit is counted as in cover) as the Stealthy successor trait for SM(which in and of itself is the not Raven Guard trait, minus the "if in cover and not a vehicle, -1 to be hit" caveat).
Oh yes it's obvious. As clear as mud that!
If you can't figure out that the "Successor Craftworlds" version of Alaitoc having a wording literally copy/pasted from the Successor Chapters version of the Raven Guard trait might be a significant tell that they're working on an updated codex, that's on you.
The change in Alaitoc wording means nothing in so far as a new codex is concerned.
BrianDavion wrote: in addition to that there's the fact that GW didn't release those minis as stand alone. doesn't take a genius to figure out that GW'll release them seperately with a eldar codex (as well as possiably some new minis) in a few months. This is GW's MO. we saw it with Shadowspear, we saw it with Forge Bane (which heralded a new nercron and Imperial Knights codex)
we saw it with tooth and claw (which ehralded both space wolves and GSCs)
What? The Chaos part of Shadowspear hasn't even released yet and they've had a 1.5 codex. You've proven your own theory wrong in your first example.
Also note the many more codexes that didn't come out with a boxed set.
I'm not saying they wont be getting a new codex, a friend of a friend who works at GW says they will be out early next year with about 5 unit releases (remains to be seen how accurate that is), but claiming a single sentence for the build-your-own-craftworld traits in a book where all the Craftworlds rules were quite clearly phoned in by the intern is terrible logic. Either that or the next Craftworlds codex is going to be even worse than the current one.
I think you're misunderstanding my "claim".
The "claim" is that it lines up with what we literally just saw Space Marines get. Raven Guard were one of the first factions to have the "at 12 inches or further, -1 to be hit" trait that Alaitoc got a better version of. That modifier has been complained about fairly heavily thanks to its ability to stack and the fact that Space Marines are currently the odd one out with a notably different(if at 12 or further, you're counted as in Cover. If you're Infantry and in terrain, you get minus 1 to be hit) version should suggest to anyone with any interest in reasoning? The design paradigm likely is shifting with Marines being the first book to feature it.
The whole reason I even bothered to post about it is that someone I know was complaining about the fact that there's no straight Alaitoc trait for them to build around and they groused about the wording. As soon as they read it, I realized it's a 1:1 reading of the "Stealthy" faction trait for Successor Chapters, which purposely leaves off 'the good part' that people want from Raven Guard(the negative hit modifier) for the DIY Chapters.
TLDR: Design paradigms shift. Patterns emerge. These two things actually line up fairly well.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm expecting more for Aeldari whenever their redone book comes out. They're pretty clearly working on it too, since the "not Alaitoc" Craftworld bit has the same wording(12" or further, unit is counted as in cover) as the Stealthy successor trait for SM(which in and of itself is the not Raven Guard trait, minus the "if in cover and not a vehicle, -1 to be hit" caveat).
Oh yes it's obvious. As clear as mud that!
If you can't figure out that the "Successor Craftworlds" version of Alaitoc having a wording literally copy/pasted from the Successor Chapters version of the Raven Guard trait might be a significant tell that they're working on an updated codex, that's on you.
The change in Alaitoc wording means nothing in so far as a new codex is concerned.
BrianDavion wrote: in addition to that there's the fact that GW didn't release those minis as stand alone. doesn't take a genius to figure out that GW'll release them seperately with a eldar codex (as well as possiably some new minis) in a few months. This is GW's MO. we saw it with Shadowspear, we saw it with Forge Bane (which heralded a new nercron and Imperial Knights codex)
we saw it with tooth and claw (which ehralded both space wolves and GSCs)
What? The Chaos part of Shadowspear hasn't even released yet and they've had a 1.5 codex. You've proven your own theory wrong in your first example.
Also note the many more codexes that didn't come out with a boxed set.
the entire chaos contents of shadowspear didn't come out no, but chaos did get a new model wave including chaos marines that where clearly based on the shadowspear stuff. I'm also not saying "you only get a codex if you got a boxed set" but rather "GW tends to used boxed sets to preview upcoming releases"
Maybe you're right but I'm pretty comfortable saying Eldar will likely see the banshee kits released seperately and that it's a pretty good chance it'll be alongside a 2.0 codex and some additional toys.
I got the collectors edition book. Terrible terrible value. It’s double the price for nothing at all. The short stories are the free ones from warhammer community, I like fluff and only bought this edition because it had extra background, only to find I’ve already read them. The book is just a standard book. There isn’t a single piece of original art in the whole book.
I’ve felt ripped off in the past but this beats them all.
Content better be beyond superb, but I could of got that for half the price.
Knockagh wrote: I got the collectors edition book. Terrible terrible value. It’s double the price for nothing at all. The short stories are the free ones from warhammer community, I like fluff and only bought this edition because it had extra background, only to find I’ve already read them. The book is just a standard book. There isn’t a single piece of original art in the whole book.
I’ve felt ripped off in the past but this beats them all.
Content better be beyond superb, but I could of got that for half the price.
Shoddy shenanigans from GW indeed.
Sorry to hear that, especially when paying that much extra for it.
It was a stupid cheap($15 last I recall) way to build a Tactical Squad when combined with parts from other boxed sets. I have a whole DA army set up exclusively from these things that cost a fraction of what would have been with Tactical Squads.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm expecting more for Aeldari whenever their redone book comes out. They're pretty clearly working on it too, since the "not Alaitoc" Craftworld bit has the same wording(12" or further, unit is counted as in cover) as the Stealthy successor trait for SM(which in and of itself is the not Raven Guard trait, minus the "if in cover and not a vehicle, -1 to be hit" caveat).
Oh yes it's obvious. As clear as mud that!
If you can't figure out that the "Successor Craftworlds" version of Alaitoc having a wording literally copy/pasted from the Successor Chapters version of the Raven Guard trait might be a significant tell that they're working on an updated codex, that's on you.
But hey, keep your snark going.
Thats really, really poor reasoning.
I'm not saying they wont be getting a new codex, a friend of a friend who works at GW says they will be out early next year with about 5 unit releases (remains to be seen how accurate that is), but claiming a single sentence for the build-your-own-craftworld traits in a book where all the Craftworlds rules were quite clearly phoned in by the intern is terrible logic. Either that or the next Craftworlds codex is going to be even worse than the current one.
I agree, that alone is poor reasoning, but it stacks with other info as well as GW's general trends, to suggest an upcoming codex release.
Then again GW doesn't have trend that makes sure alaitoc gets changed. Marines got? So what. People thought every reroll would become cawl style when cawl came yet rerolls are all over the place. And when ork codex came people were 100% sure CA comes with plasma unification to work like orks...how did that pan out in the end?-)
That one came quite a long time after the aforementioned one for the Company Veterans.
The 'original' Dark Angels upgrade frame came with robed bodies, a set of Deathwing Terminator legs, and some other assorted goodies.
Yeah. the original one is what I was referring to and I know part of it is in the Company Veterans box but that's a shadow of what the box was, which is why I initially said the BT upgrade sprue would go.
zamerion wrote: the same person talks about chaos sorcerer and primaricer mephiston (the latter possibly for PA3)
also confirms zone mortalis
Please no. From all the BA characters Mephiston would be the unlikliest to go Primaris. He is already a physical beast and his psychic abilities wouldn't even get enhanced. Why risk death, when you are already ahead? Maybe it was only an impressive new model he's seen. But who am I trying to fool. If GW makes a new Marine it would be a Primaris.
my money says PA2 will be pretty minimal given the sheer number of factions involved, we're pretty sure this'll give the black templars a "supplement" so we know that's gonna be some strats relics warlord traits for them. I can't imagine GW not putting out a primarisized BT character with that. we'll also get a BT upgrade sprue for primaris.
Salamanders and white scars will almost certainly get pure fluff with a specialsit detachment at most, Sisters will likely be mostly fluff (unless GW decides to put out "minor order customization rules" in PA1) Astra Millitarium likewise could get "custom regiment" rules. Chaos will proably get relic, warlord traits and extra strats ala black legion for the involved legions. the mini releases will likely be plastic bezerkers, plastic noise marines, a plastic Lucius, and a chaos sorcerer.
Battle sisters, astra militarum, alpha legion, night lords, emperor children,word bearers, world eaters, iron warriors,salamanders, white scars, black templars..
I dunno, Templars have a tendency to die in droves in the fluff. Both Armageddon and the Guilliman recovery kerfuffle saw the Templates involved take massive casualties.
BrianDavion wrote: every 40k battle has both sides take massive casualites.
Except even a complete wipe out of a Chapter is not that many bodies.
GW's vague writing tries to make it seem like there are hordes of marines dying like armored Guardsmen, but the number of Marines involved should be a droplet compared to the army groups of IG vs the hordes of cultists and mutants.
BrianDavion wrote: every 40k battle has both sides take massive casualites.
Except even a complete wipe out of a Chapter is not that many bodies.
GW's vague writing tries to make it seem like there are hordes of marines dying like armored Guardsmen, but the number of Marines involved should be a droplet compared to the army groups of IG vs the hordes of cultists and mutants.
a lot of the time you see battle zones being made up of companies from multiple chapters. Vigilius is a good example, but yeah the losses are a bit silly. Did anyone else notice that GW just casually killed off half the 2nd company of ultramarines in shadowspear?
That one came quite a long time after the aforementioned one for the Company Veterans.
The 'original' Dark Angels upgrade frame came with robed bodies, a set of Deathwing Terminator legs, and some other assorted goodies.
Yeah. the original one is what I was referring to and I know part of it is in the Company Veterans box but that's a shadow of what the box was, which is why I initially said the BT upgrade sprue would go.
The DA upgrade frame, as far as I can find, was never sold in a box. Just via mail-order.
And it was two of the sprues rather than one like the Veterans box has.
a lot of the time you see battle zones being made up of companies from multiple chapters. Vigilius is a good example, but yeah the losses are a bit silly. Did anyone else notice that GW just casually killed off half the 2nd company of ultramarines in shadowspear?
Its the Smurf retirement program. Keeps pension costs down.
my money says PA2 will be pretty minimal given the sheer number of factions involved, we're pretty sure this'll give the black templars a "supplement" so we know that's gonna be some strats relics warlord traits for them. I can't imagine GW not putting out a primarisized BT character with that. we'll also get a BT upgrade sprue for primaris.
Salamanders and white scars will almost certainly get pure fluff with a specialsit detachment at most, Sisters will likely be mostly fluff (unless GW decides to put out "minor order customization rules" in PA1) Astra Millitarium likewise could get "custom regiment" rules. Chaos will proably get relic, warlord traits and extra strats ala black legion for the involved legions. the mini releases will likely be plastic bezerkers, plastic noise marines, a plastic Lucius, and a chaos sorcerer.
You think that every single release will be for Chaos and a chatacter for BT? I think that's.....unlikely.
Leaker has stated that there won't be many/any unit releases with this PA volume.
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SamusDrake wrote: Black Templars then. Hmm. I hope they do a new Emperor's champion that does the old one justice.
BrianDavion wrote: the mini releases will likely be plastic beRzerkers, plastic noise marines, a plastic Lucius, and a chaos sorcerer.
Likely based on what? The sorc we know is coming at some point, having seen the teaser of it.
Those (+warpsmith) are all either finecast units or older than a fair few members of the forum maybe are. I can see them passing over on the zerkers against since they're at least plastic though.
It would be great if true, but that's quite a few kits for one relatively random/multifaction book. Was just curious if BrianDavion knew something we didn't.
There's still that rumor mill picture of what appears to be a ruined aquila reminiscent of one of Grimaldus's servitors, isn't there? Or was that confirmed as being part of some other model?
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: It would be great if true, but that's quite a few kits for one relatively random/multifaction book. Was just curious if BrianDavion knew something we didn't.
A big thing to consider is that we do know there's a Chaos Sorcerer model that's unreleased. There was a rumor engine from awhile back that was the gargoyle headed backpack spouts.
Personally, I'm in a fair amount of agreement with Brian other than the Lucius bit. I'm thinking Chaos will see expanded rules for the Legions highlighted, a Berzerkers box, a Noise Marine box, the Sorcerer model that we've not seen yet and then maybe upgrade frames ala what the Marines got for the Legions highlighted(Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Night Lords).
Marine side of things, stuff for Black Templars. Guard get something. Sororitas are getting their Army Pack and Codex as a whole separate dealio.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: It would be great if true, but that's quite a few kits for one relatively random/multifaction book. Was just curious if BrianDavion knew something we didn't.
A big thing to consider is that we do know there's a Chaos Sorcerer model that's unreleased. There was a rumor engine from awhile back that was the gargoyle headed backpack spouts.
Yep, mentioned that on the previous page when I asked why he thought the other models were coming. Would LOVE for the rest of that stuff to come, as well.
I don't know whether they are just meant to be fluff clues or actual clues as to upcoming models but in Phoenix Rising, there is reference to the Screaming Serpent. The Serpent is described as vast, with wings, armed with 3 swords and a whip. Sounds like Fulgrim.
A quote from an Exodite, Maegrah Worldsinger, suggests maybe Exodites are coming as well?
Iracundus wrote: I don't know whether they are just meant to be fluff clues or actual clues as to upcoming models but in Phoenix Rising, there is reference to the Screaming Serpent. The Serpent is described as vast, with wings, armed with 3 swords and a whip. Sounds like Fulgrim.
A quote from an Exodite, Maegrah Worldsinger, suggests maybe Exodites are coming as well?
Lol, great. More ridiculous animal-riding factions in a universe with world-ending technology is just what we need.
Iracundus wrote: I don't know whether they are just meant to be fluff clues or actual clues as to upcoming models but in Phoenix Rising, there is reference to the Screaming Serpent. The Serpent is described as vast, with wings, armed with 3 swords and a whip. Sounds like Fulgrim.
A quote from an Exodite, Maegrah Worldsinger, suggests maybe Exodites are coming as well?
Lol, great. More ridiculous animal-riding factions in a universe with world-ending technology is just what we need.
Iracundus wrote: I don't know whether they are just meant to be fluff clues or actual clues as to upcoming models but in Phoenix Rising, there is reference to the Screaming Serpent. The Serpent is described as vast, with wings, armed with 3 swords and a whip. Sounds like Fulgrim.
A quote from an Exodite, Maegrah Worldsinger, suggests maybe Exodites are coming as well?
Lol, great. More ridiculous animal-riding factions in a universe with world-ending technology is just what we need.
Iracundus wrote: I don't know whether they are just meant to be fluff clues or actual clues as to upcoming models but in Phoenix Rising, there is reference to the Screaming Serpent. The Serpent is described as vast, with wings, armed with 3 swords and a whip. Sounds like Fulgrim.
A quote from an Exodite, Maegrah Worldsinger, suggests maybe Exodites are coming as well?
Lol, great. More ridiculous animal-riding factions in a universe with world-ending technology is just what we need.
If there's one thing I can't stand in my 40k, it's all this ridiculous anachronistic sci-fantasy! Keep that oh you tea OUT of my realistic space setting.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: It would be great if true, but that's quite a few kits for one relatively random/multifaction book. Was just curious if BrianDavion knew something we didn't.
A big thing to consider is that we do know there's a Chaos Sorcerer model that's unreleased. There was a rumor engine from awhile back that was the gargoyle headed backpack spouts.
Personally, I'm in a fair amount of agreement with Brian other than the Lucius bit. I'm thinking Chaos will see expanded rules for the Legions highlighted, a Berzerkers box, a Noise Marine box, the Sorcerer model that we've not seen yet and then maybe upgrade frames ala what the Marines got for the Legions highlighted(Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Night Lords).
Marine side of things, stuff for Black Templars. Guard get something. Sororitas are getting their Army Pack and Codex as a whole separate dealio.
I'm just guessing based on what we know and carrying forward. I truthfully mentioned Lucius because we saw eldar and dark eldar get a unit type and a HQ, so I'm guessing that at most we'll see a WE and EC unit and character. the black templars upgrade frame is almost a certainty given that PA is supposed to be giving us the same rules treatment for Black templars that the first founding chapters got in their supplement.
I think it's highly likely we'll see new plastic noise marines, and hopefully bezerkers because Games Workshop doesn't seem likely to highlight those legions without updating their basic troop choice. Bezerkers are at least plastic so could be skipped, but noise marines are an ancient resin upgrade kit.
it seems like a lot of new kits, but it's not really that big. 1 upgrade it, two boxes of units. that'd be a pretty mild model release window.
I'm always amazed how often GW has mentioned Exodites of all the sub-faction armies that we've never seen. Even the community site has mentioned them a fair few times. I can never tell if they are just seeding for conversions (seraphon) or if they are openly hinting at the future or if someone on the community staff keeps pushing for it in the hope that enough casual mentioning might get GW to make them.
OF all the Eldar updates such as Harliquins and Yinnari the Exodites would be the most exciting update in terms of releasing a totally brand new roster of models with a very unique look.
I think if they let Jes out of his cupboard and allowed him to do something other than Primaris marines we might have actually seen them by now.
Exodites are so integral to the Eldar fluff that it's surprising they haven't been made. There are even rules for fighting on a maiden (exodite) world in the newest supplement!
Part of me doesn't want an Exodite release so I can complete my own sometime soon.
From our new favorite overlord french rumor monger (Kikasstou) :
About Psychic Awakening Vol. 3 (BA vs Tyranids) :
_ Mephiston will get a new model. He is now a primaris.
About Psychic Awakening Vol. 2 :
_ Main focus is BT vs Chaos (CSM). SoB will be in it, but they are not the main focus of the book. Same goes for Imperial Guard.
_ Librarians, Chaplains and Techmarines "level 2" are making a comeback. Librarians and Chaplains know one more spell / litany and can cast one more spell / litany. Techmarines lvl 2 can repair a flat 3 damages instead of D3.
_ Access to those lvl 2 characters will work in the same manner as getting a Chapter Master or Ork Warphead. The stratagems to "upgrade" the characters will cost 1 CP.
_ All SM will have access to those lvl 2 characters (he doesn't know if SW, DA and BA will have access to Chaplains lvl 2 because they don't even know Litanies right now). He thinks it is only for SM and CSM will not have access to something similar but he's not sure.
_ BT cannot use IF stratagems / warlord traits / etc. PA2 will pretty much be its own supplement for BT : super-doctrine, warlord traits, relics, stratagems and their very own Litanies. He doesn't know if there will be any new model for BT (it was confirmed to him that there will be NO Primaris version or new model for Hellbrecht, Grimaldus and the Emperor's Champion).
_ Don't expect a lot of new models in general. There might be a new Chaos Sorcerer though.
Overread wrote: I'm always amazed how often GW has mentioned Exodites of all the sub-faction armies that we've never seen. Even the community site has mentioned them a fair few times. I can never tell if they are just seeding for conversions (seraphon) or if they are openly hinting at the future or if someone on the community staff keeps pushing for it in the hope that enough casual mentioning might get GW to make them.
OF all the Eldar updates such as Harliquins and Yinnari the Exodites would be the most exciting update in terms of releasing a totally brand new roster of models with a very unique look.
Well today's taunting is a Corsair-focused story.
And the mere hint of 'not-quite humans' altered by a Haemonculus.
What a lovely new way to be disappointed. My half ass Vigilus style update that doesn't fix the worst faction rules in the game gets to share a book with yet another Marine super charging.
Eldarain wrote: What a lovely new way to be disappointed. My half ass Vigilus style update that doesn't fix the worst faction rules in the game gets to share a book with yet another Marine super charging.
Eldarain wrote: What a lovely new way to be disappointed. My half ass Vigilus style update that doesn't fix the worst faction rules in the game gets to share a book with yet another Marine super charging.
I did not know Grey Knights were in it?
I'm super hoping for another rule in it like the Daemon codex has that specifically calls out Grey Knights and beats the horse dead for no reason.
Selfcontrol wrote: From our new favorite overlord french rumor monger (Kikasstou) :
He doesn't know if there will be any new model for BT (it was confirmed to him that there will be NO Primaris version or new model for Hellbrecht, Grimaldus and the Emperor's Champion).
Wait what????
... wasn't it speculated by another french that Echamp was getting a primaris overhaul????
Eldarain wrote: What a lovely new way to be disappointed. My half ass Vigilus style update that doesn't fix the worst faction rules in the game gets to share a book with yet another Marine super charging.
I did not know Grey Knights were in it?
Despite being terrible they get my Legion Trait added on as a bonus.
Mephiston getting a new model is the first special character I'm kind of excited about. I don't care if he gets primarisized but I hope they keep his distinctive vampire lord armor as a Mk X variant and not screw it up by changing it to the chunkier gravis one.
Overread wrote: I'm always amazed how often GW has mentioned Exodites of all the sub-faction armies that we've never seen. Even the community site has mentioned them a fair few times. I can never tell if they are just seeding for conversions (seraphon) or if they are openly hinting at the future or if someone on the community staff keeps pushing for it in the hope that enough casual mentioning might get GW to make them.
OF all the Eldar updates such as Harliquins and Yinnari the Exodites would be the most exciting update in terms of releasing a totally brand new roster of models with a very unique look.
Well today's taunting is a Corsair-focused story.
And the mere hint of 'not-quite humans' altered by a Haemonculus.
Emperor's Children / Fabius do have history in learning from/working with the Covens...and the latter does like his new breeds of enhanced humans.
Enhanced humans would be an interesting new unit for Choas - and certainly a welcome change from the endless Marine releases every single week.
Selfcontrol wrote: From our new favorite overlord french rumor monger (Kikasstou) :
About Psychic Awakening Vol. 3 (BA vs Tyranids) :
_ Mephiston will get a new model. He is now a primaris.
About Psychic Awakening Vol. 2 :
_ Main focus is BT vs Chaos (CSM). SoB will be in it, but they are not the main focus of the book. Same goes for Imperial Guard.
_ Librarians, Chaplains and Techmarines "level 2" are making a comeback. Librarians and Chaplains know one more spell / litany and can cast one more spell / litany. Techmarines lvl 2 can repair a flat 3 damages instead of D3.
_ Access to those lvl 2 characters will work in the same manner as getting a Chapter Master or Ork Warphead. The stratagems to "upgrade" the characters will cost 1 CP.
_ All SM will have access to those lvl 2 characters (he doesn't know if SW, DA and BA will have access to Chaplains lvl 2 because they don't even know Litanies right now). He thinks it is only for SM and CSM will not have access to something similar but he's not sure.
_ BT cannot use IF stratagems / warlord traits / etc. PA2 will pretty much be its own supplement for BT : super-doctrine, warlord traits, relics, stratagems and their very own Litanies. He doesn't know if there will be any new model for BT (it was confirmed to him that there will be NO Primaris version or new model for Hellbrecht, Grimaldus and the Emperor's Champion).
_ Don't expect a lot of new models in general. There might be a new Chaos Sorcerer though.
I can belive this change. in the blood ravens index article they had a trait called "chief libarian" that basicly did exactly that. and I always thought it odd that we didn't see it in the space marine codex given blood ravens where clearly a cheeky little preview of the codex. So it'll proably be chief libby, cheif reclusiarch and master of the forge
It's possible that in that short story, the corsair saw what he thought was a haemonculus but was in fact some sort of flesh crafter of the emperor's children, like Fabius Bile. They share themes, like flesh crafted coats, big mechanical surgical tools on their backs/arms etc, pale skin and gaunt faces.
It'll be interesting to see what actually comes out. My expectations are low, just like they were for the first psychic awakening, and so far I haven't been disappointed.
Kinda annoying that they'd release codexes, just to release new stuff for space marines several months later. Especially since it's more of an upgrade than an actual new model.
GaroRobe wrote: Kinda annoying that they'd release codexes, just to release new stuff for space marines several months later. Especially since it's more of an upgrade than an actual new model.
Agreed. but they gotta get Marine players somehow I guess, if they only put stuff out for black templars in PA they run the risk of not getting their largest audiance for PA. which could indeed be problematic for their bottem line
I mean, the new stuff is kind of the curse of the Primaris. As a Space Marine player you're more or less guaranteed 4-5 new kits per year, minimum (granted maybe one or two of those will be for a specific chapter etc.). There's more or less no way to keep the Space Marine codex relevant.
On the plus side, you're getting new stuff...so that's cool I guess. More so than ever before you're just guaranteed new models every couple of months. That's not a bad time to be a Space Marine player. Unlike previous editions though you're not going to be getting re-vamped model kits of old units, so the growing pain is how to keep all the rules together.
GaroRobe wrote: Kinda annoying that they'd release codexes, just to release new stuff for space marines several months later. Especially since it's more of an upgrade than an actual new model.
Welcome to the club, they're doing the same to chaos in the same book.
Rumors of another CSM Sorcerer kind of line up with pretty old rumors when Thousand Sons came out that we'd get a stand alone sorcerer HQ kit that wasn't in terminator armor and had a Thousand Sons helmet as an extra bit option.
We do know a CSM Sorcerer is supposed to be released. The old rumor engine matches up perfectly to the old sorcerer backpack. I think its probably one of our oldest RE left to be revealed.
And the mere hint of 'not-quite humans' altered by a Haemonculus.
Minor fluff spoiler for book one alert
Spoiler:
There is a small piece about Haemonculus putting some DE into almost human body's as a punishment. These DE are then used as spies and agent provocateurs by Vect
SamusDrake wrote: Black Templars then. Hmm. I hope they do a new Emperor's champion that does the old one justice.
To be fair, it's not really needed because that new Lt model has nearly the same pose and identical wargear. Change the helmet and you're 95% of the way toward primaris EC. In fact, the rosary, relics, and other stuff make the model better EC than it is Lt...
_ Librarians, Chaplains and Techmarines "level 2" are making a comeback. Librarians and Chaplains know one more spell / litany and can cast one more spell / litany. Techmarines lvl 2 can repair a flat 3 damages instead of D3.
_ Access to those lvl 2 characters will work in the same manner as getting a Chapter Master or Ork Warphead. The stratagems to "upgrade" the characters will cost 1 CP.
So, they took that garbage Blood Raven stratagem and actually changed it to what it should have been in the first place? Wow, I did not thought GW can make BR ""supplement"" look more terrible and phoned in than it already was, but they prove me more and more wrong with every release...
Elbows wrote: I mean, the new stuff is kind of the curse of the Primaris. As a Space Marine player you're more or less guaranteed 4-5 new kits per year, minimum (granted maybe one or two of those will be for a specific chapter etc.). There's more or less no way to keep the Space Marine codex relevant.
On the plus side, you're getting new stuff...so that's cool I guess. More so than ever before you're just guaranteed new models every couple of months. That's not a bad time to be a Space Marine player. Unlike previous editions though you're not going to be getting re-vamped model kits of old units, so the growing pain is how to keep all the rules together.
except there's been two years between the first primaris wave and the second, so 4-5 minis a year seems a bit much. what marines came out in 2018? I don't really count Limited edition event models because, frankly speaking, I can't buy them.
That was simply lag in the start of the edition, with all of the effort and time going to codices and "new" armies, etc. Now that things have settled...you will absolutely be getting 4-5 kits a year minimum. Maybe the occasional gap due to edition changes or other "big" GW events.
Elbows wrote: That was simply lag in the start of the edition, with all of the effort and time going to codices and "new" armies, etc. Now that things have settled...you will absolutely be getting 4-5 kits a year minimum. Maybe the occasional gap due to edition changes or other "big" GW events.
Elbows wrote: I mean, the new stuff is kind of the curse of the Primaris. As a Space Marine player you're more or less guaranteed 4-5 new kits per year, minimum (granted maybe one or two of those will be for a specific chapter etc.).
I like how xeno players keep repeating this over and over despite being blatantly wrong. Between middle of 2017 (first primaris wave) and late 2019 (second one) there was a big fat ZERO space marine releases*. Unless you count Death Guard or Black Legion as space marines, which would first be as accurate as counting orks as eldar release, second, both of the above heavily expanded on not-astartes side of each army, ironically diluting CSM content of each massively.
*No, Shadowspear sneak peek doesn't count, because unless you wanted something to put on the shelf, incomplete, badly pointed rules made the minis pretty much unusable.
Elbows wrote: That was simply lag in the start of the edition, with all of the effort and time going to codices and "new" armies, etc. Now that things have settled...you will absolutely be getting 4-5 kits a year minimum. Maybe the occasional gap due to edition changes or other "big" GW events.
You're aware this 'lag' ended with huge wave of (not-SM) GSC over a year ago, and since then we had releases of: Gellerpox (0% SM), Starstriders (0% SM), Daemonkin (0% SM, which is funny considering they started as SM), not one but two Rogue Trader releases (with again 0% SM, even though adding one here would be trivial), various renegades and heretics (0% SM), Chaos Knights (0% SM), two Chaos reboots, Eldar/DE refresh, and more. All without a single SM model. Gee, what bounty!
And only now we're back at SM release, after 3 year break, said release being horribly drawn out, overpriced, with some really lame models, and to boot most of it can't be even classified as general SM release as they are subfaction-only (to the point you can't even field them as counts-as because GW writers couldn't be arsed to give primaris access to lightning claws, graw guns, and other stuff marines had for decades firmly making new models useless even for converters). Oh no, how will SM players recover after rain of boons of this magnitude?
Elbows wrote: That was simply lag in the start of the edition, with all of the effort and time going to codices and "new" armies, etc. Now that things have settled...you will absolutely be getting 4-5 kits a year minimum. Maybe the occasional gap due to edition changes or other "big" GW events.
So Genestealer Cult are Space Marines?
Huh. Who knew!
Actual spoiler joke, don't open if you haven't read newer novels
Spoiler:
no we've not received any Scythes of the Emperor models yet so so far so good
You're aware this 'lag' ended with huge wave of (not-SM) GSC over a year ago, and since then we had releases of: Gellerpox (0% SM), Starstriders (0% SM), Daemonkin (0% SM, which is funny considering they started as SM), not one but two Rogue Trader releases (with again 0% SM, even though adding one here would be trivial), various renegades and heretics (0% SM), Chaos Knights (0% SM), two Chaos reboots, Eldar/DE refresh, and more. All without a single SM model. Gee, what bounty!
What about all those Primaris Lieutenants models? Primaris Lieutenants aren't Space Marines?
*No, Shadowspear sneak peek doesn't count, because unless you wanted something to put on the shelf, incomplete, badly pointed rules made the minis pretty much unusable.
Really - the pathetic argument of "I don't like/can't afford the models/rules so somehow they don't count as one of the many Marine releases" - all alongside the constant (even GW laugh about it) releases of Primaris Lt models, the Kill team boxes, the massive amount of FW models that can also be used.....and are still constantly being released.
but yeah our Marines got no new models ever - over here in bizaro world.
And only now we're back at SM release, after 3 year break, said release being horribly drawn out, overpriced, with some really lame models, and to boot most of it can't be even classified as general SM release as they are subfaction-only (to the point you can't even field them as counts-as because GW writers couldn't be arsed to give primaris access to lightning claws, graw guns, and other stuff marines had for decades firmly making new models useless even for converters). Oh no, how will SM players recover after rain of boons of this magnitude?
Based on a recent Voxcast, those are options. They just aren't matched play options. To go off of something James Gallagher said: just pay the points for the option like normal (well that and maybe run it by your friends first).
Options exist, but you need to go outside of the magic box to find them.
Elbows wrote: That was simply lag in the start of the edition, with all of the effort and time going to codices and "new" armies, etc. Now that things have settled...you will absolutely be getting 4-5 kits a year minimum. Maybe the occasional gap due to edition changes or other "big" GW events.
So Genestealer Cult are Space Marines?
Huh. Who knew!
Actual spoiler joke, don't open if you haven't read newer novels
Spoiler:
no we've not received any Scythes of the Emperor models yet so so far so good
I thought you were joking, but I looked it up. I hate Guy Haley so so much.
*No, Shadowspear sneak peek doesn't count, because unless you wanted something to put on the shelf, incomplete, badly pointed rules made the minis pretty much unusable.
Really - the pathetic argument of "I don't like/can't afford the models/rules so somehow they don't count as one of the many Marine releases" - all alongside the constant (even GW laugh about it) releases of Primaris Lt models, the Kill team boxes, the massive amount of FW models that can also be used.....and are still constantly being released.
but yeah our Marines got no new models ever - over here in bizaro world.
the primaris leuitenants are almost all special event minis, so no they don't count.
and yes the quyality of a units rules is worth speaking of considering that I've seen at least one poster here dismiss a substantial xenos release "because none of them where any good!"
Elbows wrote: I mean, the new stuff is kind of the curse of the Primaris. As a Space Marine player you're more or less guaranteed 4-5 new kits per year, minimum (granted maybe one or two of those will be for a specific chapter etc.).
I like how xeno players keep repeating this over and over despite being blatantly wrong. Between middle of 2017 (first primaris wave) and late 2019 (second one) there was a big fat ZERO space marine releases*. Unless you count Death Guard or Black Legion as space marines, which would first be as accurate as counting orks as eldar release, second, both of the above heavily expanded on not-astartes side of each army, ironically diluting CSM content of each massively.
*No, Shadowspear sneak peek doesn't count, because unless you wanted something to put on the shelf, incomplete, badly pointed rules made the minis pretty much unusable.
Elbows wrote: That was simply lag in the start of the edition, with all of the effort and time going to codices and "new" armies, etc. Now that things have settled...you will absolutely be getting 4-5 kits a year minimum. Maybe the occasional gap due to edition changes or other "big" GW events.
You're aware this 'lag' ended with huge wave of (not-SM) GSC over a year ago, and since then we had releases of: Gellerpox (0% SM), Starstriders (0% SM), Daemonkin (0% SM, which is funny considering they started as SM), not one but two Rogue Trader releases (with again 0% SM, even though adding one here would be trivial), various renegades and heretics (0% SM), Chaos Knights (0% SM), two Chaos reboots, Eldar/DE refresh, and more. All without a single SM model. Gee, what bounty!
And only now we're back at SM release, after 3 year break, said release being horribly drawn out, overpriced, with some really lame models, and to boot most of it can't be even classified as general SM release as they are subfaction-only (to the point you can't even field them as counts-as because GW writers couldn't be arsed to give primaris access to lightning claws, graw guns, and other stuff marines had for decades firmly making new models useless even for converters). Oh no, how will SM players recover after rain of boons of this magnitude?
Yes you totally deserve that victim mentality with ~30 new kits in 2 years.... you poor poor marine player... everyone saying you get things and you have ONLY got ~30 new kits in 2 years. Its not like that is more than double new kits for other factions combined. How dare any one get slightly annoyed that marines get so many releases, ~30 is nothing! /s
Come on dude, I get you like marines and thats cool, but drop it with the victim mentality here. With ~30 SM kits released over 2 years it makes sense people would like to see more love for other factions... considering there is ~22 other factions out there. Also comparing a brand new armies release to additional stuff for SM is extremely disingenuous, which... SM have had more new ADDITIONAL kits than GSC had for their entire army. Same with the gellerpox starstrider stuff... that is its own game, the fact they have any rules for 40k is more a bonus, then a model release. Its is pretty fair and logical that the other 20ish factions would like even 1/5 of the love new kit wise as SM have been getting. Can't even believe with ~30 kits you wrote that with the tone that SM haven't got much lol.
*No, Shadowspear sneak peek doesn't count, because unless you wanted something to put on the shelf, incomplete, badly pointed rules made the minis pretty much unusable.
Really - the pathetic argument of "I don't like/can't afford the models/rules so somehow they don't count as one of the many Marine releases" - all alongside the constant (even GW laugh about it) releases of Primaris Lt models, the Kill team boxes, the massive amount of FW models that can also be used.....and are still constantly being released.
but yeah our Marines got no new models ever - over here in bizaro world.
Shadowspear contains phobos marines. Their latest release wave is phobos marines.
Unless you want to count releasing infiltrators etc twice, then no you can't count shadowspear.
*No, Shadowspear sneak peek doesn't count, because unless you wanted something to put on the shelf, incomplete, badly pointed rules made the minis pretty much unusable.
Really - the pathetic argument of "I don't like/can't afford the models/rules so somehow they don't count as one of the many Marine releases" - all alongside the constant (even GW laugh about it) releases of Primaris Lt models, the Kill team boxes, the massive amount of FW models that can also be used.....and are still constantly being released.
but yeah our Marines got no new models ever - over here in bizaro world.
Shadowspear contains phobos marines. Their latest release wave is phobos marines.
Unless you want to count releasing infiltrators etc twice, then no you can't count shadowspear.
I'm detecting a notable double standard here. any marine release is too much meanwhile with anyone else their release only counts if it's "worthy" and if the unit sucks "it doesn't count"
The only double standard is with you marine apologists.
Firstly - Marines have had, what was it, over 30 new releases since 8th dropped. The ‘substantial’ release for my faction was 6. The virtually new line of GSC got 12. The next largest release was DG with 20, 10 less if maths isn’t your strong point; 2/3 what marines had. SM have had more releases than the rest of the Imperium releases combined, including a full new army in Custodes. There are factions that have had NOTHING.
Secondly - there was at least one release in 2018 for marines because wake the dead had a new character model. There was also a massive forge world grav tank unless I’ve imagined all the hype around it. There was also Tiberius, Calgar and his Vixtrix Guard. There was also the million Primaris Lt (that absolutely weren’t special event models in most cases). Oh and Space Marine heroes that can easily be found online.
Thirdly - yes shadow spear counts as a release, because it was a release. It had new models within, did it not? EVEN MORE new models have been released since, with the alternative build options for units and the myriad of large vehicles added. Or is Phoenix Rising not a release? How about Speed Freeks? That not a release either? The Necron Cryptek box, should we discount that too?
You cannot argue in anything but the worst of faith that Marines have had more than the lions share of releases since 8th dropped and that these releases continue. The victim mentality here and the ‘but I had to wait 4 months this one time for something new!’ is unbelievable.
*No, Shadowspear sneak peek doesn't count, because unless you wanted something to put on the shelf, incomplete, badly pointed rules made the minis pretty much unusable.
Really - the pathetic argument of "I don't like/can't afford the models/rules so somehow they don't count as one of the many Marine releases" - all alongside the constant (even GW laugh about it) releases of Primaris Lt models, the Kill team boxes, the massive amount of FW models that can also be used.....and are still constantly being released.
but yeah our Marines got no new models ever - over here in bizaro world.
Shadowspear contains phobos marines. Their latest release wave is phobos marines.
Unless you want to count releasing infiltrators etc twice, then no you can't count shadowspear.
I'm detecting a notable double standard here. any marine release is too much meanwhile with anyone else their release only counts if it's "worthy" and if the unit sucks "it doesn't count"
Bro, come on. I tell you what, lets size up my own army releases of none marine stuff. We'll start with Guard. A limited edition event driven female commissar model, and Sly Marbo. I know, the pace of their releases is blowing me away too.
Lemme see here, Dark Eldar, oh yeah, one character and incubi which lord knows when they'll drop not in a sucktastic bloat box.
Tau, nada.
I think the only faction that got anything really sizeable was Ad mech, and that was the transport/tank kit and that one tech priest fella that has yet to be released on his own outside kill team so I don't have him.
The only armies that got anything new with any number has been my marine armies both loyal and chaos. Really saying marines are so lacking, the numbers were crunched and it's way off the scale.
Add to that now I hear guard will be in a book, but won't even be a focus. That's very cool to hear, another book that'll probably have a usable formation or two but I won't buy just for 2 formations and a bunch of stuff I can't use and no model released still for them. Guess I better go back to lovingly holding Sly Marbo.
Anyone complaining about marine releases are just doing the hobby wrong.
Just get a marine army on the side -they are really easy to get because they are part of most boxed sets for nice discounts
Seriously though, I thought many gamers kept a marine force on the side. Most of my friends has 2 or 3 different factions gathered over the years.
Fayric wrote: Anyone complaining about marine releases are just doing the hobby wrong.
Just get a marine army on the side -they are really easy to get because they are part of most boxed sets for nice discounts
Seriously though, I thought many gamers kept a marine force on the side. Most of my friends has 2 or 3 different factions gathered over the years.
Not everyone has that ammount of cash, especially in regards to the new and improved prices (COUGH ELIMINATORS COUGH)
Secondly, in my situation i allready got marines. Just the wrong kind, with spikes, you know the ones?
Fayric wrote: Seriously though, I thought many gamers kept a marine force on the side.
Well, I recently (Oxayotl scale of recent) started some Imperial Guards along with my Sisters of Battle, so now I'll be swimming in new releases! When was the latest release for the guard? New Marbo maybe? Or Severina Rayne?
Anyway I'm only using Victoria Miniatures models (except for Severina) so it doesn't really matter, she release new regiments and stuff regularly. But if I keep going like I'm doing, I'll just get an army of basic infantry guardmen (and guardwomen) with no special weapons or vehicles, which doesn't seem like it could work on 1500/2000 points games.
I don't particularly feel sorry for the likes of Tau... Guard... Nids.. Necrons.
Yeah, you haven't had a release in a while.. but your model line is already pretty good.
You have a full range of plastics easily available. No real core issues with your line. What can they even do for Guard that isn't just a brand new thing that they don't exactly need but would be nice?
Meanwhile we have Eldar where a very large part of their army is resin. Dark Eldar also have similar issues, and are both missing flexible HQ like the SM Captain or Tau Commander.
Orks who still don't have a proper Warboss with options either. Plenty of resin hanging around, no Deffkopta model that isn't from 1990s, even though they do have a sculpt for it...
So sorry.. but I don't really care about Guard players moaning about lack of releases either.
Jacob29 wrote: In the context of the current discussion.
I don't particularly feel sorry for the likes of Tau... Guard... Nids.. Necrons.
Yeah, you haven't had a release in a while.. but your model line is already pretty good.
You have a full range of plastics easily available. No real core issues with your line. What can they even do for Guard that isn't just a brand new thing that they don't exactly need but would be nice?
No, necrons do not have a full range of plastics available. Flayed Ones are finecast. C'tan are Finecast. Characters are finecast. Keep in mind that necrons don't have a large range to begin with, so that's still a good chunk of their line.
Jacob29 wrote: In the context of the current discussion.
I don't particularly feel sorry for the likes of Tau... Guard... Nids.. Necrons.
Yeah, you haven't had a release in a while.. but your model line is already pretty good.
You have a full range of plastics easily available. No real core issues with your line. What can they even do for Guard that isn't just a brand new thing that they don't exactly need but would be nice?
No, necrons do not have a full range of plastics available. Flayed Ones are finecast. C'tan are Finecast. Characters are finecast. Finecast is not plastic and is an inferior product cooked up by GW as part of a scheme to save money by not using Pewter or plastic and instead use a "resin" that's prone to defects and is way too fragile to be anywhere near a gaming table.
Apologies then to Necrons I forgot Flayed Ones are still finecast as well as C'tan. They also could do with a new Lord, granted. But their range isn't exactly bad. They have a lot of plastic.
I DID know finecast was not plastic fyi.
Also they do have a plastic overlord, granted it is monopose, but still. They only have one finecast unit.
I suppose I would be fine with Necron models though if they were coming out the pipe though, sure.
edit: Just saw your edit regarding them already being a small line, that is true they are not massive, and perhaps I should take them off my list.
Yeah, Finecast is supposed to be a type of resin, but its a really cheap, poor quality resin. Getting it is a waste of money.
I guess its like knock-off forgeworld? Like, Forgeworld also makes resin models, but you don't hear as much negative feedback about their stuff as Finecast.
Jacob29 wrote: Yeah, you haven't had a release in a while.. but your model line is already pretty good.
You have a full range of plastics easily available. No real core issues with your line. What can they even do for Guard that isn't just a brand new thing that they don't exactly need but would be nice?
Jacob29 wrote: Yeah, you haven't had a release in a while.. but your model line is already pretty good.
You have a full range of plastics easily available. No real core issues with your line. What can they even do for Guard that isn't just a brand new thing that they don't exactly need but would be nice?
As opposed to... Marines? REALLY?
You misundertood, apologies.
Not compared to Marine, definitely not.
I don't think Marines should get a release either, its getting old and boring very quickly.
I just also don't think they should focus on Guard as they have a very solid range already.
But if I had to pick Marines or Guard I would definitely choose Guard.
*No, Shadowspear sneak peek doesn't count, because unless you wanted something to put on the shelf, incomplete, badly pointed rules made the minis pretty much unusable.
Really - the pathetic argument of "I don't like/can't afford the models/rules so somehow they don't count as one of the many Marine releases" - all alongside the constant (even GW laugh about it) releases of Primaris Lt models, the Kill team boxes, the massive amount of FW models that can also be used.....and are still constantly being released.
but yeah our Marines got no new models ever - over here in bizaro world.
How much money do you want to bet that he considers the Pheonix Rising box a xenos release, though? Because...let's see...terrible rules? Check. Giant, overpriced box the only way to get them? Check. Models not available for purchase individually yet? Check.
Yeah, guard models are pretty dated.
What I find really sad though is that you had such a wide variety of different Imperial Guard regiments, but its all Rambo and generic army dudes now.
If they are going to cut down on the variety, as least make what's left look good.
Librarians, Chaplains and Techmarines "level 2" are making a comeback. Librarians and Chaplains know one more spell / litany and can cast one more spell / litany. Techmarines lvl 2 can repair a flat 3 damages instead of D3.
_ Access to those lvl 2 characters will work in the same manner as getting a Chapter Master or Ork Warphead. The stratagems to "upgrade" the characters will cost 1 CP.
_ All SM will have access to those lvl 2 characters (he doesn't know if SW, DA and BA will have access to Chaplains lvl 2 because they don't even know Litanies right now). He thinks it is only for SM and CSM will not have access to something similar but he's not sure.
Awsome. Because no other race could have benefited from this. There was definitely no race in Phoenix Rising that was desperately short of HQ choices and could have really benefited from a way to improve one. Thank goodness we live in a world where no such race exists.
Fayric wrote: Anyone complaining about marine releases are just doing the hobby wrong.
Just get a marine army on the side -they are really easy to get because they are part of most boxed sets for nice discounts
Seriously though, I thought many gamers kept a marine force on the side. Most of my friends has 2 or 3 different factions gathered over the years.
Why on earth would I want models from the most boring faction in the game?
Not Online!!! wrote: Beyond that, a random librarian can be upgraded a sorcerer not.
Remind me which off these is aligned more closely with the warp.
so much this....and the random librarian is on farseer lvls of psychic power as well. They really need to stop with the "always one more than the one before" approach.
Jacob29 wrote: In the context of the current discussion.
I don't particularly feel sorry for the likes of Tau... Guard... Nids.. Necrons.
Yeah, you haven't had a release in a while.. but your model line is already pretty good.
You have a full range of plastics easily available. No real core issues with your line. What can they even do for Guard that isn't just a brand new thing that they don't exactly need but would be nice?
Upgrade sprues with reasonable amounts of special/heavy weapons. You can either buy a metal clam-pack with 1 melta and 1 plasma for $15 or a Command Squad with 1 of each special/melee weapon for $35. Same goes for Tau, but the kit needs multiples of every crisis weapon including the ones you only get 1 of in the $50 Commander kit. A dedicated box of 4+ drones would be nice too. $15 for 2 is insane so most people just stalk ebay/miniswap/swapshop until they have enough. There's probably lots of armies that need upgrade kits with their bottlenecked weapons/bits. Getting some rules love would be nice too.
Something along the lines of "Hello there Guardsman/woman! Ever wanted to run your dudes exactly like you wanted to even though they don't wear 3+ armor? With the new imperial guard supplement you can! Combined with the new Guardsman upgrade sprue you can run any tactics you want with the loadout to match!"
*No, Shadowspear sneak peek doesn't count, because unless you wanted something to put on the shelf, incomplete, badly pointed rules made the minis pretty much unusable.
Really - the pathetic argument of "I don't like/can't afford the models/rules so somehow they don't count as one of the many Marine releases" - all alongside the constant (even GW laugh about it) releases of Primaris Lt models, the Kill team boxes, the massive amount of FW models that can also be used.....and are still constantly being released.
but yeah our Marines got no new models ever - over here in bizaro world.
Shadowspear contains phobos marines. Their latest release wave is phobos marines.
Unless you want to count releasing infiltrators etc twice, then no you can't count shadowspear.
I'm detecting a notable double standard here. any marine release is too much meanwhile with anyone else their release only counts if it's "worthy" and if the unit sucks "it doesn't count"
Bit like all Marines are one faction for sales and super different compeltely unique factions that just happen to use the same models for other things?
That the constant FW modells AND rules for 40K Marines dont count - even though other factions either don't get one or both.
Marines have models released every week.
Anyone complaining about marine releases are just doing the hobby wrong.
No - I have several Marine armies but I would like stuff released for my others armies that actually need new releases not just adding to the Mountain of Marine bloat.
I wonder how many generic Marine units, formaitons, etc are added by the new campaign andif the entire rest of the facition releases added together will come close.
Upgrade sprues with reasonable amounts of special/heavy weapons. You can either buy a metal clam-pack with 1 melta and 1 plasma for $15 or a Command Squad with 1 of each special/melee weapon for $35.
If we see anything, it'll be a recut Guard Infantry box ala the Fire Warriors revamp a few years ago. If we do...don't be surprised to see reduced heavy weapons/special weapons options though.
Fayric wrote: Anyone complaining about marine releases are just doing the hobby wrong.
Just get a marine army on the side -they are really easy to get because they are part of most boxed sets for nice discounts
Seriously though, I thought many gamers kept a marine force on the side. Most of my friends has 2 or 3 different factions gathered over the years.
Why on earth would I want models from the most boring faction in the game?
Glad to see we are keeping this thread relevant to the topic. Mod step in anytime, thank you.
My hope for the new book is a few more missions. I felt Phx Rising was a bit of a disappointment in this area. I wanted more Vigilus style, and this was more of a whimper. I am tempted to pick up some slaaneshi daemons just to play some of these games.
Apologies then to Necrons I forgot Flayed Ones are still finecast as well as C'tan. They also could do with a new Lord, granted. But their range isn't exactly bad. They have a lot of plastic.
I DID know finecast was not plastic fyi.
Also they do have a plastic overlord, granted it is monopose, but still. They only have one finecast unit.
I suppose I would be fine with Necron models though if they were coming out the pipe though, sure.
edit: Just saw your edit regarding them already being a small line, that is true they are not massive, and perhaps I should take them off my list.
Destroyer Lords and Heavy Destroyers are also a mix plastic-finecast. And if there is one thing Finecrap a particuliary bad at, it's those shaft every necron character have, or the long cannon of the Heavy Destroyers which are all bent and break without notice.
Still we are at a far better place than Craftworld ou Dark Eldar. But our Finecast is on particulary fragile models.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: they also say that the Chapter's Marines were infected by the Genestealer's Kiss.
This is not anything new and has been in the fluff for years. Genestealers can infect Astartes to influence them mentally, but the whole reproduction aspect does not work due to Astartes physiology.
Fayric wrote: Anyone complaining about marine releases are just doing the hobby wrong.
Just get a marine army on the side -they are really easy to get because they are part of most boxed sets for nice discounts
Seriously though, I thought many gamers kept a marine force on the side. Most of my friends has 2 or 3 different factions gathered over the years.
Why on earth would I want models from the most boring faction in the game?
At the place where I play we did a "hobby garage sale" recently where people brought in all the spare stuff they don't want anymore to try and trade it away. For the most part, people were trading model kits for 10-15$ just to get rid of them.
95% of it was marines stuff. Amusingly, mostly Primaris marine stuff - there were no less than 6 unpainted repulsor chassis people were trying to ditch.
Not Online!!! wrote: Beyond that, a random librarian can be upgraded a sorcerer not.
Remind me which off these is aligned more closely with the warp.
so much this....and the random librarian is on farseer lvls of psychic power as well. They really need to stop with the "always one more than the one before" approach.
We're at...let's see now..
Librarius
Ob...scurious? The new phobos one
GK list
BA list
SW list
DA list
IH list
RG list
UM list
WS list
IF list
So that's... 11 psychic disciplines within the power armor codexes.
Outside of the power armor codexes, we've got:
3 Eldar lists
daemons list
CSM list
Tsons list
DG list
harlequins list
Ork list
IG list
10 psychic disciplines. Total. Across all the factions that have psykers.
Amazing times we live in. Anyone want to place bets on whether the next psychic doctrine released will be something for a non-loyalist SM faction, or will it be Deathwatchamancy or, feth it, Templaromancy just to complete the set?
Fayric wrote: Anyone complaining about marine releases are just doing the hobby wrong.
Just get a marine army on the side -they are really easy to get because they are part of most boxed sets for nice discounts
Seriously though, I thought many gamers kept a marine force on the side. Most of my friends has 2 or 3 different factions gathered over the years.
Why on earth would I want models from the most boring faction in the game?
At the place where I play we did a "hobby garage sale" recently where people brought in all the spare stuff they don't want anymore to try and trade it away. For the most part, people were trading model kits for 10-15$ just to get rid of them.
95% of it was marines stuff. Amusingly, mostly Primaris marine stuff - there were no less than 6 unpainted repulsor chassis people were trying to ditch.
Not Online!!! wrote: Beyond that, a random librarian can be upgraded a sorcerer not.
Remind me which off these is aligned more closely with the warp.
so much this....and the random librarian is on farseer lvls of psychic power as well. They really need to stop with the "always one more than the one before" approach.
We're at...let's see now..
Librarius
Ob...scurious? The new phobos one
GK list
BA list
SW list
DA list
IH list
RG list
UM list
WS list
IF list
So that's... 11 psychic disciplines within the power armor codexes.
Outside of the power armor codexes, we've got:
3 Eldar lists
3 daemons list
2 CSM list Tsons list
DG list
harlequins list
Ork list
IG list
13 psychic disciplines. Total. Across all the factions that have psykers.
Amazing times we live in. Anyone want to place bets on whether the next psychic doctrine released will be something for a non-loyalist SM faction, or will it be Deathwatchamancy or, feth it, Templaromancy just to complete the set?
Not much better but fixed that for you.
Honestly getting bored of this now. People are fed of marines,but there's no need to pour out this level vitriol towards it, either don't buy them/ignore the marine content or join them. It's not worth being outwardly hostile and bitter about what the company decides to release or not release.
And no I'm not a marine "apologist", I don't own a marine army and their releases don't impact me. I just get on with what I have and enjoy, let them have their stuff if it keeps the game going. There are some advantages to not having new stuff shovelled out constantly for all factions - the older units aren't going to get re-made and magically double the monetary cost.
Back on topic: given the list of factions included I can imagine a lot of them getting lipservice with minimal new stuff, especially sisters. The main focus will probably black templars which will (assumingly) round out the marine supplements at last. it might be better if there are no model releases this time though.
Is it just me or does anyone else feel like the Eldar part was so disappointing and poorly done that they no longer care storywise?
I'm interested in new models/rules for factions I play and like the look of but story wise I'm feeling more and more like just leaving 40k nowadays.
BrianDavion wrote: the scythes thing was simply GSC infiltration of their human support staff, which is yes a weak link in their chain.
Except there is still screening of Serfs, and they also say that the Chapter's Marines were infected by the Genestealer's Kiss.
While unlikely, it is still possible.
How an AVATAR can merge with a patriarch is beyond me....
Infect a Pheonix Lord who is sacrficed and the psychic taint infests the Avatar's form?
Phoenix Lord's don't get sacrificed.
Also, if avatars were vulnerable that way, then I expect daemons would be as well.
In any case, infecting space marines would be a dead end since they don't have kids. And samples of the chapter's geneseed regularly get sent off for screening, making it likely that they'd quickly get discovered.
If we could keep the thread on topic instead of "omg X faction needs more/less releases" to other threads that would be nice. I think the latest leak got overlooked for the most part due to all the from the last two pages.
About Psychic Awakening Vol. 3 (BA vs Tyranids) :
_ Mephiston will get a new model. He is now a primaris.
About Psychic Awakening Vol. 2 :
_ Main focus is BT vs Chaos (CSM). SoB will be in it, but they are not the main focus of the book. Same goes for Imperial Guard.
_ Librarians, Chaplains and Techmarines "level 2" are making a comeback. Librarians and Chaplains know one more spell / litany and can cast one more spell / litany. Techmarines lvl 2 can repair a flat 3 damages instead of D3.
_ Access to those lvl 2 characters will work in the same manner as getting a Chapter Master or Ork Warphead. The stratagems to "upgrade" the characters will cost 1 CP.
_ All SM will have access to those lvl 2 characters (he doesn't know if SW, DA and BA will have access to Chaplains lvl 2 because they don't even know Litanies right now). He thinks it is only for SM and CSM will not have access to something similar but he's not sure.
_ BT cannot use IF stratagems / warlord traits / etc. PA2 will pretty much be its own supplement for BT : super-doctrine, warlord traits, relics, stratagems and their very own Litanies. He doesn't know if there will be any new model for BT (it was confirmed to him that there will be NO Primaris version or new model for Hellbrecht, Grimaldus and the Emperor's Champion).
_ Don't expect a lot of new models in general. There might be a new Chaos Sorcerer though.
We had rumors for the past couple of weeks saying BT would get some sort of love when it came to new or updated models. A possible Primaris EC? Now nothing? That would be pretty lame if BT got nothing updated/upgraded. Give us something GW! I can understand not moving the current named characters to primaris, but I thought the EC would be fitting. In fact I think the EC would make sense to have both the regular and Primaris version still be viable moving forward. Maybe they will release someone new in that case like the did for IF and IH. How about a Primaris with a hammer? I'd line up to buy that.
Edit - On further thought.... It doesn't make any sense to add BT in a box set if they aren't adding any new models, or updating anything - like say the Sword Brother unit. What would the point of a box set be at that point?
Not sure what to think about the "level 2" changes, but I would welcome some BT specific tweaks. It would make sense to load up on other things since they don't have any casting.
Not that I play Demons or CMS, but I like the list we saw for Volume 2. The short story they put up of the Commisar (last week?) for PA makes me think that this is going to be a pretty brutal round from a lore standpoint, and being within spitting distance of Terra? Let the games begin!
Fayric wrote: Anyone complaining about marine releases are just doing the hobby wrong.
Just get a marine army on the side -they are really easy to get because they are part of most boxed sets for nice discounts
Seriously though, I thought many gamers kept a marine force on the side. Most of my friends has 2 or 3 different factions gathered over the years.
Not everyone has that ammount of cash, especially in regards to the new and improved prices (COUGH ELIMINATORS COUGH)
Secondly, in my situation i allready got marines. Just the wrong kind, with spikes, you know the ones?
I just refuse to buy Eliminators and Suppressors because of the unit design. You buy them as three man units and...that's it. Super fething lame.
No models for BT would be in line with the last two editions: all the hate by association with other Marines that do everything better than you, none of the love from having a decent niche and model releases that work with your army.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No models for BT would be in line with the last two editions: all the hate by association with other Marines that do everything better than you, none of the love from having a decent niche and model releases that work with your army.
To be honest Intercessors in Assault Doctrine are very scary now in meele. And probably they'll be even better with all the meele bonuses BT will get, I'm sure.
Agressors are also good as an assault unit.
The potential is there, it'll be down to the non-Chapter Tactic boni. I just have a hard time seeing how BT Intercessors are going to compete with UM ones. The melee buffs would have to be very strong there to equal "always stationary, always shooting".
One niche they could go with is BT as the Drop Pod/Deep Strike faction. It'd fit in with the CT and be fluffy to boot.
EDIT: I guess what I fear is another edition spent existing for the sake of existing. This pisses of BT players (who get to enjoy being the worst loyalists for a third edition in a row bar possibly GK) and it pisses off everyone else too (for having a Marine faction that might as well not exist hogging a release slot). Either give us rules that aren't poop or rip off the band-aid and tell us we're no longer wanted. Stop giving us hope when it's just the first step on the road to disappointment.
Jacob29 wrote: You have a full range of plastics easily available. No real core issues with your line. What can they even do for Guard that isn't just a brand new thing that they don't exactly need but would be nice?
A full line reboot. Drop the desert storm era look of the Cadians and lean more into the WWI/WWII era look that their tanks have. That or use Guilliman as an excuse to bring back the Solar Auxilia in plastic.
BrianDavion wrote: the scythes thing was simply GSC infiltration of their human support staff, which is yes a weak link in their chain.
Except there is still screening of Serfs, and they also say that the Chapter's Marines were infected by the Genestealer's Kiss.
While unlikely, it is still possible.
How an AVATAR can merge with a patriarch is beyond me....
Infect a Pheonix Lord who is sacrficed and the psychic taint infests the Avatar's form?
Phoenix Lord's don't get sacrificed.
Also, if avatars were vulnerable that way, then I expect daemons would be as well.
In any case, infecting space marines would be a dead end since they don't have kids. And samples of the chapter's geneseed regularly get sent off for screening, making it likely that they'd quickly get discovered.
Sorry, I should have said "Young King". Still, point remains, infect someone then have them do the awakening. I mean if a Keeper of Secrets can possess an Avatar, nothing is impossible.
BrianDavion wrote: the scythes thing was simply GSC infiltration of their human support staff, which is yes a weak link in their chain.
Except there is still screening of Serfs, and they also say that the Chapter's Marines were infected by the Genestealer's Kiss.
While unlikely, it is still possible.
How an AVATAR can merge with a patriarch is beyond me....
Infect a Pheonix Lord who is sacrficed and the psychic taint infests the Avatar's form?
Phoenix Lord's don't get sacrificed.
Also, if avatars were vulnerable that way, then I expect daemons would be as well.
In any case, infecting space marines would be a dead end since they don't have kids. And samples of the chapter's geneseed regularly get sent off for screening, making it likely that they'd quickly get discovered.
Unless Chapters go silent and stop sending off samples to be examined because they are almost destroyed and don’t have any to spare, and started actively using their now tainted Geneseed.
Which it’s revealed is exact what was happening, and is no explained as why in the previous Scythes of Emperor novels the 3rd Company Captain left the Chapter Master to die and later killed the Chief Apothecary. Because they knew the geneseed had been corrupted and kept using it.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The potential is there, it'll be down to the non-Chapter Tactic boni. I just have a hard time seeing how BT Intercessors are going to compete with UM ones. The melee buffs would have to be very strong there to equal "always stationary, always shooting".
One niche they could go with is BT as the Drop Pod/Deep Strike faction. It'd fit in with the CT and be fluffy to boot.
EDIT: I guess what I fear is another edition spent existing for the sake of existing. This pisses of BT players (who get to enjoy being the worst loyalists for a third edition in a row bar possibly GK) and it pisses off everyone else too (for having a Marine faction that might as well not exist hogging a release slot). Either give us rules that aren't poop or rip off the band-aid and tell us we're no longer wanted. Stop giving us hope when it's just the first step on the road to disappointment.
I think so far most of the supplement work has been pretty decent so far for all the chapters we have seen. No reason to think (yet) that BT are going to get screwed.
That being said, that whole hope/disappointment bit you mentioned....
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No models for BT would be in line with the last two editions: all the hate by association with other Marines that do everything better than you, none of the love from having a decent niche and model releases that work with your army.
To be honest Intercessors in Assault Doctrine are very scary now in meele. And probably they'll be even better with all the meele bonuses BT will get, I'm sure.
Agressors are also good as an assault unit.
Nobody is allowed to start in Assault Doctrine though. Because for reasons.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No models for BT would be in line with the last two editions: all the hate by association with other Marines that do everything better than you, none of the love from having a decent niche and model releases that work with your army.
To be honest Intercessors in Assault Doctrine are very scary now in meele. And probably they'll be even better with all the meele bonuses BT will get, I'm sure.
Agressors are also good as an assault unit.
Nobody is allowed to start in Assault Doctrine though. Because for reasons.
Yeah but a bunch of Intercessors firing -2AP bolters turn 2 and charging with 3 attacks each at -1AP in turn 3 doesn't sound bad for a 17ppm model (Or was it 16? Man the power creep...) with 2 Wounds and a sv3+.
And is not like you won't have all kind of other support units, those are just your basic troops.
I think so far most of the supplement work has been pretty decent so far for all the chapters we have seen. No reason to think (yet) that BT are going to get screwed.
That being said, that whole hope/disappointment bit you mentioned....
Important difference this time around however: we're not talking about a codex supplement, we're talking about a PA campaign book. While the supplements have been beefy ruleswise, PA so far has not come anywhere near that level of buffage.
I think so far most of the supplement work has been pretty decent so far for all the chapters we have seen. No reason to think (yet) that BT are going to get screwed.
That being said, that whole hope/disappointment bit you mentioned....
Important difference this time around however: we're not talking about a codex supplement, we're talking about a PA campaign book. While the supplements have been beefy ruleswise, PA so far has not come anywhere near that level of buffage.
You might be right, but I am not sure it's apples to apples in this case. Unless I am mistaken, the leaks have mentioned that BT's part of the Vol2 books will basically be their supplement. It might be an outlier to the standard campaign book.Not that I would put money on that.
BrianDavion wrote: the scythes thing was simply GSC infiltration of their human support staff, which is yes a weak link in their chain.
Except there is still screening of Serfs, and they also say that the Chapter's Marines were infected by the Genestealer's Kiss.
While unlikely, it is still possible.
How an AVATAR can merge with a patriarch is beyond me....
Just wondering what book you are talking about?
The second Ynnari book. I think it's Wild Rider?
The first Ynnari book Ghost warrior it's the one with the history but it does make some sense when you consider the whole situation.
Spoiler to avoid reveal fluff from it
Spoiler:
That one of the Oldest if not the Oldest Craftworld ever know from before the Fall has been surviving as a Genestealer cult/infectation as alternative from not having Soulstones, explains how after more than ten thousands years the Eldar psyke and belief in the migthy power of the Patriarch posing as a pseudo Khaine has turned it into a hybrid of both.
ClockworkZion wrote: That or use Guilliman as an excuse to bring back the Solar Auxilia in plastic.
What a wonderful (if expensive) world it would be!
It'd give the Guard a rather unique (if very 50s raygun) asthetic for sure.
I mean I'd love something like plastic Krieg, but if we can't have them, plastic spacemen would be good too.
You know, I'd be happy with any plastic Guard kit that didn't have fists bigger than the model's torso. Even if they took boring old Cadians and resculpted them to the same proportions of the command squad I'd be fine. Solar Auxilia or Death Korp would be great, but at this point I'd take just about anything to replace what is likely the worst plastic kit GW still offers (tied with possibly the plastic zombies).
BrianDavion wrote: the scythes thing was simply GSC infiltration of their human support staff, which is yes a weak link in their chain.
Except there is still screening of Serfs, and they also say that the Chapter's Marines were infected by the Genestealer's Kiss.
While unlikely, it is still possible.
How an AVATAR can merge with a patriarch is beyond me....
Just wondering what book you are talking about?
The second Ynnari book. I think it's Wild Rider?
The first Ynnari book Ghost warrior it's the one with the history but it does make some sense when you consider the whole situation.
Spoiler to avoid reveal fluff from it
Spoiler:
That one of the Oldest if not the Oldest Craftworld ever know from before the Fall has been surviving as a Genestealer cult/infectation as alternative from not having Soulstones, explains how after more than ten thousands years the Eldar psyke and belief in the migthy power of the Patriarch posing as a pseudo Khaine has turned it into a hybrid of both.
Ah my bad then. But it was still dumb. Why would they choose a Cult? How did the Cult get on board? How did any of that start? Why did a statue get infected and HOW!?
I think BT will be just fine and will have the same amount of power creep as the other supplements. The French guy leaked some of the abilities for BT.
You want actual RUMOURS in this rumour thread?! How dare you
kikass wrote:Strat on a 2+ can't disengage from BT unit.
You have things like for 1CP, the turn where you land a land raider crusader you do not suffer overwatch in charge and the opponent has -1 to touch you to the cqc. Or you have a relic that gives an invaded 4+ to 3 "around the wearer for 1 round.A warlord trait that gives a bubble + 1Advance and + 1charge (so load has 8+ reroll for BT in FeP) .. yes there are some tips to reach the CqC For the characters do not bother you either, it is especially warlord traits that change, but once they are at the CqC, the target is unlikely to 'get out.
...
Also this for the relevant CSM factions;
Sorry I did not read much about CSM. I just know that the legions concerned will get 1 warlord / strat / relic trait pages each. But I have no more details. All I know is that they will not have a doctrine like SM or retouching their legion (which will not apply to vehicles like DMs ).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No models for BT would be in line with the last two editions: all the hate by association with other Marines that do everything better than you, none of the love from having a decent niche and model releases that work with your army.
To be honest Intercessors in Assault Doctrine are very scary now in meele. And probably they'll be even better with all the meele bonuses BT will get, I'm sure.
Agressors are also good as an assault unit.
Nobody is allowed to start in Assault Doctrine though. Because for reasons.
Yeah but a bunch of Intercessors firing -2AP bolters turn 2 and charging with 3 attacks each at -1AP in turn 3 doesn't sound bad for a 17ppm model (Or was it 16? Man the power creep...) with 2 Wounds and a sv3+.
And is not like you won't have all kind of other support units, those are just your basic troops.
Except why not just stay in the Tactical Doctrine at that point? There's just very little incentive to go all that way, especially in a IGOUGO system where games are basically decided T1
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No models for BT would be in line with the last two editions: all the hate by association with other Marines that do everything better than you, none of the love from having a decent niche and model releases that work with your army.
To be honest Intercessors in Assault Doctrine are very scary now in meele. And probably they'll be even better with all the meele bonuses BT will get, I'm sure.
Agressors are also good as an assault unit.
Nobody is allowed to start in Assault Doctrine though. Because for reasons.
Yeah but a bunch of Intercessors firing -2AP bolters turn 2 and charging with 3 attacks each at -1AP in turn 3 doesn't sound bad for a 17ppm model (Or was it 16? Man the power creep...) with 2 Wounds and a sv3+.
And is not like you won't have all kind of other support units, those are just your basic troops.
Except why not just stay in the Tactical Doctrine at that point? There's just very little incentive to go all that way, especially in a IGOUGO system where games are basically decided T1
I've yet to play a game decided on turn 1. By turn 3 perhaps, but not on turn 1.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No models for BT would be in line with the last two editions: all the hate by association with other Marines that do everything better than you, none of the love from having a decent niche and model releases that work with your army.
To be honest Intercessors in Assault Doctrine are very scary now in meele. And probably they'll be even better with all the meele bonuses BT will get, I'm sure.
Agressors are also good as an assault unit.
Nobody is allowed to start in Assault Doctrine though. Because for reasons.
Yeah but a bunch of Intercessors firing -2AP bolters turn 2 and charging with 3 attacks each at -1AP in turn 3 doesn't sound bad for a 17ppm model (Or was it 16? Man the power creep...) with 2 Wounds and a sv3+.
And is not like you won't have all kind of other support units, those are just your basic troops.
Except why not just stay in the Tactical Doctrine at that point? There's just very little incentive to go all that way, especially in a IGOUGO system where games are basically decided T1
Because you can still shoot and then charge for nearly double the offensive capabilities (Specially with a Sargeant with a powerfist or something)? I don't know. All games are different and theres a ton of reasons for charging an unit with Intercessors. And if you are playing a meele army you want to get to assault doctrine as fast as you can.
Ultramarines have a strat that let's them treat a single unit as being in tac doctrine even when your army is in someone else. Iron Hands have one that allows you to treat a unit as in devestator doctrine even if the rest of the army are in something else. if black templars get a strat that does the same for assault it could be a useful strat.
Blood Raven stratagem and actually changed it to what it should have been in the first place? Wow, I did not thought 
