SkullzInfinity wrote: Any Bangle v Nids matchup at this point will feel stale as hell. We all know Marines can't lose in these campaign books so this'll be the second Campaign book, and third major narrative event, featuring the Bangles where they beat the Nids. Even by 40k's 'Xenos always lose the event' standards that's just becoming ridiculous. Also I find a lot of the fluff around Nids and Marines ridiculous. We've got a Broodlord feeling fear against Gabriel Seth, Tigurius can read the Hive Mind's mind and now it has a literal personal beef against Dante. It really diminishes the Hive Mind that it seems more like some moody teen now rather than a vast, unknowable, unflappable alien intelligence that does not even perceive individual organisms as entities in their own right.
Then again Orks v Space Wolves is no different. They had Sanctus Reach already which was just Orks losing to Wolves and getting le classical 'but Chaos was the real foe all along' upstaged moment, so yet another supplement about the Orks losing to the Wolves is just tedious.
But I guess that's sorta the problem. Any of the matchups with the Marines is gonna feel tedious since basically every time the Marines are matched up with anyone they always win. I think the story fluff that comes with every single starter box featuring Marines since the game began ends in a Marine victory.
Kinda why I hope we get more matchups of just non-Marines against each other, like this Deldar and Craftworlds one. When Marines aren't involved you finally can actually be surprised at the outcome instead of being able to just say "marines win" and 9/10 times know you'll be right. Then again I'm still not ruling out Phoenix Rising literally just ending with a couple of Marines barging in and stomping Jain Zar and Drazhar flat with contemptuous ease.
This hits the nail right on the head. More conflicts that aren't Imperium vs X. Bonus points if you use lesser known subfactions. Let the EC do Slaaneshi things to Eldar. What happens when the Tau's naivety to let anyone join the Greater Good comes into conflict with Nurgle's loving embrace for ALL his followers? Some details on the Octarius War would show what both factions look like going full strength without needing Deus Ex Machina to save the loser. Harlequins are supposed to fight anything that is a threat to the Eldar's existence so why not show them fighting their ancient enemy the Necrons? Even the lesser known Imperials would be nice. What happens if the Genestealers infest a Forgeworld? Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows? The sisters will put that to the test with every single one of their actions glorifying the Emperor and most of their flame weapons not causing bloody wounds.
But no, we need to read more about how Rulesbloat Aquilaman and friends are saving the Imperium yet again through the power of Space Marines
Indeed. This is where I'm at also.
I mean we all know where we are with what happened to Calgar. The fact that he survived Abby just shows that GW will never kill off a Marine hero. They won't even allow them to lose.
I'm not being funny, but Ragnar should be no match for Ghazzy. Ghaz is our Primarch level character. Ragnar is not Primarch level. But we all know that if SW vs Orks is to be believed, Ghazzy will again be mugged off.
Why not have Ghaz kill Ragnar in cold blood, like he should, only for Russ to lose his gak and howl in on a space snowboard to give Ghaz a good kicking. Now that would be cool.
Actual repercussions. Actual permanent death of heroic marines. Then give them a Primarch as an appeasement.
Whilst these things might be nice we have to acknowledge the reality that "bonus points" don't mean gak to GW, nor should they. No one really believes Phoenix Rising is going to sell as well as BA or SW campaign book. It is what it is.
I'm not so sure you're right about Ghaz. Whilst he is the Ork Primarch equivalent I don't think he'll actually be Primarch level so to speak. Remember Abaddon was supposed to be so huge and so similar to Horus that even Heresy era CSM who have seen Primarchs irl think he's a clone.
Yet when he released he was a head shorter than Guilliman and both Calgar and Sigismund have lost to him but in ways that give them moral victories of sorts. I think GW will release all or most Primarchs eventually but want to do so really slowly and have them on a tier of their own, with the chapter master heroes (and Ragnar) stepping up as the great heroes of The Imperium. When Ghaz comes back I think he'll be big but not as monstrous as The Beast was described as.
Tiberius501 wrote: I think all the marines being first might make sense. With the marine codex, it may be a way to give all the other flavours (there are a lot of flavours) their extra rules to keep up with vanilla Marines early without needing to do a whole codex for them.
There is a lot of flavour indeed. Would be so much easier to make marines keep up with each other if we folded them all into a single codex!
Careful now, you're gonna get the whole "Muh Defwing and Furidreads" defenders in this thread!
I used to be dead against the idea but at this point they may as well. They seem intent on watering down fun as much as they can these days.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not being funny, but Ragnar should be no match for Ghazzy. Ghaz is our Primarch level character. Ragnar is not Primarch level.
I mean, his nemesis is an old Commissar, which is also Primarch-level.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Careful now, you're gonna get the whole "Muh Defwing and Furidreads" defenders in this thread!
And, to a lesser degree, their chaos equivalent now that we have 3 CSM codex.
I obviously don't count daemons as a CSM codex Half-Brother, as the SM in CSM stand for Space Marines and Daemons aren't Space Marine. That would be just dumb. I mean, I know you think I'm dumb, but you don't think I am that dumb, do you?
Whatever happened to that DA box set with the DA rumored as the bad guys?
Eldar vs DE would be cool if they fight, do the Phoenix thing, and then unite against the Necrons.
So Oct releases are:
5- Lizzies BB, Ghouls Underworld
12- Psychic Awakenings w/Eldar & DE 19- Skeleton Men for AOS 26- Maybe Salamanders and IF, infilitrators and repulsor?
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not being funny, but Ragnar should be no match for Ghazzy. Ghaz is our Primarch level character. Ragnar is not Primarch level.
I mean, his nemesis is an old Commissar, which is also Primarch-level.
To be fair, every direct confrontation between Yarrik and Thrakka ended with Yarrik needing a bunch of replacement body parts. Every army should have some sort of "Legendary General"-style leader, Gulliman, Abbaddon, Yarrik and Thrakka all fit into that category - but so does Helbrecht, Lemartes and other marine characters.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Careful now, you're gonna get the whole "Muh Defwing and Furidreads" defenders in this thread!
And, to a lesser degree, their chaos equivalent now that we have 3 CSM codex.
CSM sub-factions are lots of faction specific stuff + some basics, while loyal marines are lots of basic stuff + a hand full of unique units. Space Wolves have more in common with Ultramarines than TS or DG with CSM. That said, I'd love to get all the units, stratagems and powers from Codex:CSM for my death guard, and I really don't need a separate codex or a supplement for them, as long as we get our units, stratagems and warlord traits like black legion does.
Did Ghazghkul and Yarick ever actually fight? He lost his arm fighting some other warboss, who he then killed. Not sure about his eye. I know Yarick led the armies that defeated all Ghazghkul's big attacks, but I don't remember them every encountering each other. Come to think about it, it really makes Ghazghkul seem like a huge coward. He has this great nemesis that he never goes after, and he's never leading the major assaults of his war that end up being defeated by Yarick.
Popsghostly wrote: Whatever happened to that DA box set with the DA rumored as the bad guys?
Eldar vs DE would be cool if they fight, do the Phoenix thing, and then unite against the Necrons.
So Oct releases are:
5- Lizzies BB, Ghouls Underworld
12- Psychic Awakenings w/Eldar & DE 19- Skeleton Men for AOS 26- Maybe Salamanders and IF, infilitrators and repulsor?
For as much as there is talk of the whole "Eldar Hate Necrons" thing, is there or has there ever really been any in-depth fluff of newcrons fighting eldar? the only example I can come up with is like the one-page blurb with illic fighting some 'crons in the eldar codex.
For what is supposedly one of The Big Rivalries it's weird to hear about it so infrequently.
the_scotsman wrote: For as much as there is talk of the whole "Eldar Hate Necrons" thing, is there or has there ever really been any in-depth fluff of newcrons fighting eldar? the only example I can come up with is like the one-page blurb with illic fighting some 'crons in the eldar codex.
For what is supposedly one of The Big Rivalries it's weird to hear about it so infrequently.
In the necron Codex there is a some reference about Alaitoc being particulary active in destroying Tomb World. I don't have my codex with me, but in think they describe Alaitoc as one of the few Craftworld which take the necron menace seriously, or even remembers about them.
Triarch Pretorian, who where active during the great sleep, often fought with Alaitoc trying to defend Tomb Worlds.
Recently, Yllic and Anrakyr fought in the Carnac Campaign
Albino Squirrel wrote: Did Ghazghkul and Yarick ever actually fight? He lost his arm fighting some other warboss, who he then killed. Not sure about his eye. I know Yarick led the armies that defeated all Ghazghkul's big attacks, but I don't remember them every encountering each other. Come to think about it, it really makes Ghazghkul seem like a huge coward. He has this great nemesis that he never goes after, and he's never leading the major assaults of his war that end up being defeated by Yarick.
IIRC, the only time the two met in battle, Ghazzy captured Yarrick rather than kill him to reassert his dominance to the WAAAGH! He had Yarrick's bionics removed, proved he could predict Yarrick's behaviour through a couple tests where Yarrick acted exactly as predicted, then Ghazzy had his Bionics re-implanted and set Yarrick free so he could tell the Imperium to get ready for Ghazy's return to Armageddon.
I obviously don't count daemons as a CSM codex Half-Brother, as the SM in CSM stand for Space Marines and Daemons aren't Space Marine. That would be just dumb. I mean, I know you think I'm dumb, but you don't think I am that dumb, do you?
DON'T ANSWER THAT!!!
I do wish that 'all things 40K Chaos' were in one codex, but, yeah, I know that's not how GW rolls.
I mean, just look at all the books speculated for this release!
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not being funny, but Ragnar should be no match for Ghazzy. Ghaz is our Primarch level character. Ragnar is not Primarch level.
I mean, his nemesis is an old Commissar, which is also Primarch-level.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Careful now, you're gonna get the whole "Muh Defwing and Furidreads" defenders in this thread!
And, to a lesser degree, their chaos equivalent now that we have 3 CSM codex.
Death Guard are trickier because of how FNP isn't everywhere, and that WAS their gimmick for forever. However, Thousand Sons can just be given access to everything and just need a different Legion rule. Probably be given the current Scourged Overwatch bonus+ the extra range they already have. Seems okay as a start to me.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Did Ghazghkul and Yarick ever actually fight? He lost his arm fighting some other warboss, who he then killed. Not sure about his eye. I know Yarick led the armies that defeated all Ghazghkul's big attacks, but I don't remember them every encountering each other. Come to think about it, it really makes Ghazghkul seem like a huge coward. He has this great nemesis that he never goes after, and he's never leading the major assaults of his war that end up being defeated by Yarick.
That's just by today's standards. Yarrick and Ghazghkull are from a time when GW writers took greater inspiration from real life military history and their leaders oftentimes behaves more like actual leaders which have a responsibility to the larger war effort and can't just run off to shank somebody.
We've only started seeing the super hero comic approach of nemeses facing off against each other (and both walking away alive) come to the fore prior to 5th ed when the latest generation of writers took over. Basically the Ward era.
Ghazghkull and Yarrick at the time were fine. Their background is just an anachronism now because times have changed since then.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Did Ghazghkul and Yarick ever actually fight? He lost his arm fighting some other warboss, who he then killed. Not sure about his eye. I know Yarick led the armies that defeated all Ghazghkul's big attacks, but I don't remember them every encountering each other. Come to think about it, it really makes Ghazghkul seem like a huge coward. He has this great nemesis that he never goes after, and he's never leading the major assaults of his war that end up being defeated by Yarick.
IIRC, the only time the two met in battle, Ghazzy captured Yarrick rather than kill him to reassert his dominance to the WAAAGH! He had Yarrick's bionics removed, proved he could predict Yarrick's behaviour through a couple tests where Yarrick acted exactly as predicted, then Ghazzy had his Bionics re-implanted and set Yarrick free so he could tell the Imperium to get ready for Ghazy's return to Armageddon.
This is correct.
Ghazzy absolutely mugged Yarrick off, hence the latter's hate for the former. Ghazzy doesn't view Yarrick as a nemesis either, though he respects him for a human and Yarrick very, very nearly got his revenge, if it wasn't for Deus Ex Machinork.
SkullzInfinity wrote: Any Bangle v Nids matchup at this point will feel stale as hell. We all know Marines can't lose in these campaign books so this'll be the second Campaign book, and third major narrative event, featuring the Bangles where they beat the Nids. Even by 40k's 'Xenos always lose the event' standards that's just becoming ridiculous. Also I find a lot of the fluff around Nids and Marines ridiculous. We've got a Broodlord feeling fear against Gabriel Seth, Tigurius can read the Hive Mind's mind and now it has a literal personal beef against Dante. It really diminishes the Hive Mind that it seems more like some moody teen now rather than a vast, unknowable, unflappable alien intelligence that does not even perceive individual organisms as entities in their own right.
Then again Orks v Space Wolves is no different. They had Sanctus Reach already which was just Orks losing to Wolves and getting le classical 'but Chaos was the real foe all along' upstaged moment, so yet another supplement about the Orks losing to the Wolves is just tedious.
But I guess that's sorta the problem. Any of the matchups with the Marines is gonna feel tedious since basically every time the Marines are matched up with anyone they always win. I think the story fluff that comes with every single starter box featuring Marines since the game began ends in a Marine victory.
Kinda why I hope we get more matchups of just non-Marines against each other, like this Deldar and Craftworlds one. When Marines aren't involved you finally can actually be surprised at the outcome instead of being able to just say "marines win" and 9/10 times know you'll be right. Then again I'm still not ruling out Phoenix Rising literally just ending with a couple of Marines barging in and stomping Jain Zar and Drazhar flat with contemptuous ease.
This hits the nail right on the head. More conflicts that aren't Imperium vs X. Bonus points if you use lesser known subfactions. Let the EC do Slaaneshi things to Eldar. What happens when the Tau's naivety to let anyone join the Greater Good comes into conflict with Nurgle's loving embrace for ALL his followers? Some details on the Octarius War would show what both factions look like going full strength without needing Deus Ex Machina to save the loser. Harlequins are supposed to fight anything that is a threat to the Eldar's existence so why not show them fighting their ancient enemy the Necrons? Even the lesser known Imperials would be nice. What happens if the Genestealers infest a Forgeworld? Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows? The sisters will put that to the test with every single one of their actions glorifying the Emperor and most of their flame weapons not causing bloody wounds.
But no, we need to read more about how Rulesbloat Aquilaman and friends are saving the Imperium yet again through the power of Space Marines
Indeed. This is where I'm at also.
I mean we all know where we are with what happened to Calgar. The fact that he survived Abby just shows that GW will never kill off a Marine hero. They won't even allow them to lose.
I'm not being funny, but Ragnar should be no match for Ghazzy. Ghaz is our Primarch level character. Ragnar is not Primarch level. But we all know that if SW vs Orks is to be believed, Ghazzy will again be mugged off.
Why not have Ghaz kill Ragnar in cold blood, like he should, only for Russ to lose his gak and howl in on a space snowboard to give Ghaz a good kicking. Now that would be cool.
Actual repercussions. Actual permanent death of heroic marines. Then give them a Primarch as an appeasement.
I'm not so sure you're right about Ghaz. Whilst he is the Ork Primarch equivalent I don't think he'll actually be Primarch level so to speak.
It's not about literal size or who would actually 'win' in a fight (although Ghazzy would surely beat Ragnar in a scrap). It's about their relevance to their respective faction. Ghazzy is on a Primarch level in that sense - for Ork players he is the most important character in the current setting bar none. Just as Russ is for wolves, the Lion for DA, Dante/Sanguinor for BA, Guilliman for Ultras, Abbaddon for Black Legion, Mortarion for DG and Magnus for TS. Ragnar is like 2nd in command at best - Santa is the number 1 wolf at present afaik (until Russ returns of course). A Primarch level character should not lose to a number 2/3. It's like the Lion losing to Fabius Bile or some gak. Utter nonsense. Yarrick can compete with Ghazzy because he is arguably the most important IG character.
Also Ghazzy is definitely the most comparable Ork to the beast since the beast.
In my head canon they are one and the same. Ghazzy has already travelled through time and is also named beast. Wouldn't it be the most Orky thing ever to conquer the galaxy then get bored so go back in time to have a 'proper' scrap. Perhaps he's the Warboss of Ullanor actually?
Personally I think it's crap that Marines and Spikey Marines between them have like 8 super characters no-one else can touch. I'd like every Xenos faction to get at least one Special Character comparable to a Primarch as well, see no reason for only the Marines to literally hoard every single strongest character in the entire setting for them and them alone.
Damn right, give me a Ghazghkull just as strong as Primarch. Buff that pathetic loser Swarmlord who's constantly dying to everyone he fights too. Avatar of Khaine as well but, at this stage, I think hoping for the Avi of Khainey to do anything but die is pointless.
Bets that Phoenix Rising sees an Avatar of Khaine wake up, trip, and die in seconds?
SkullzInfinity wrote: Personally I think it's crap that Marines and Spikey Marines between them have like 8 super characters no-one else can touch. I'd like every Xenos faction to get at least one Special Character comparable to a Primarch as well, see no reason for only the Marines to literally hoard every single strongest character in the entire setting for them and them alone.
Damn right, give me a Ghazghkull just as strong as Primarch. Buff that pathetic loser Swarmlord who's constantly dying to everyone he fights too. Avatar of Khaine as well but, at this stage, I think hoping for the Avi of Khainey to do anything but die is pointless.
Bets that Phoenix Rising sees an Avatar of Khaine wake up, trip, and die in seconds?
Personally I'm happy with everything not being equal, it makes things boring. The Greater Daemons, Avatar of Khaine, Ctan they are on Primarch level imo.
The Beast would be Primarch level, Ghaz is Chapter Master level or slightly above.
Nids shouldn't really have anything quite on that level until we start talking about beasties bigger than Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes as they are essentially mass produced bio materials and we're talking about characters fused with the power of God's or at least a portion of that God's power. It's no slight to not be on their level.
SkullzInfinity wrote: Any Bangle v Nids matchup at this point will feel stale as hell. We all know Marines can't lose in these campaign books so this'll be the second Campaign book, and third major narrative event, featuring the Bangles where they beat the Nids. Even by 40k's 'Xenos always lose the event' standards that's just becoming ridiculous. Also I find a lot of the fluff around Nids and Marines ridiculous. We've got a Broodlord feeling fear against Gabriel Seth, Tigurius can read the Hive Mind's mind and now it has a literal personal beef against Dante. It really diminishes the Hive Mind that it seems more like some moody teen now rather than a vast, unknowable, unflappable alien intelligence that does not even perceive individual organisms as entities in their own right.
Then again Orks v Space Wolves is no different. They had Sanctus Reach already which was just Orks losing to Wolves and getting le classical 'but Chaos was the real foe all along' upstaged moment, so yet another supplement about the Orks losing to the Wolves is just tedious.
But I guess that's sorta the problem. Any of the matchups with the Marines is gonna feel tedious since basically every time the Marines are matched up with anyone they always win. I think the story fluff that comes with every single starter box featuring Marines since the game began ends in a Marine victory.
Kinda why I hope we get more matchups of just non-Marines against each other, like this Deldar and Craftworlds one. When Marines aren't involved you finally can actually be surprised at the outcome instead of being able to just say "marines win" and 9/10 times know you'll be right. Then again I'm still not ruling out Phoenix Rising literally just ending with a couple of Marines barging in and stomping Jain Zar and Drazhar flat with contemptuous ease.
This hits the nail right on the head. More conflicts that aren't Imperium vs X. Bonus points if you use lesser known subfactions. Let the EC do Slaaneshi things to Eldar. What happens when the Tau's naivety to let anyone join the Greater Good comes into conflict with Nurgle's loving embrace for ALL his followers? Some details on the Octarius War would show what both factions look like going full strength without needing Deus Ex Machina to save the loser. Harlequins are supposed to fight anything that is a threat to the Eldar's existence so why not show them fighting their ancient enemy the Necrons? Even the lesser known Imperials would be nice. What happens if the Genestealers infest a Forgeworld? Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows? The sisters will put that to the test with every single one of their actions glorifying the Emperor and most of their flame weapons not causing bloody wounds.
But no, we need to read more about how Rulesbloat Aquilaman and friends are saving the Imperium yet again through the power of Space Marines.
Personally I'm happy with everything not being equal, it makes things boring. The Greater Daemons, Avatar of Khaine, Ctan they are on Primarch level imo.
The Beast would be Primarch level, Ghaz is Chapter Master level or slightly above.
Nids shouldn't really have anything quite on that level until we start talking about beasties bigger than Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes as they are essentially mass produced bio materials and we're talking about characters fused with the power of God's or at least a portion of that God's power. It's no slight to not be on their level.
If there is to be inequality, it should be completely against the Imperium. That's kinda the whole point of the 40k setting - humanity is well and truly fethed.
Either way - it's not about what happens in the black library collection (because we know that any named marine will beat anything else), it's about their relevance in the faction. The "main" character of the faction should absolutely be Primarch level, if not in terms of fighting ability then in terms of tactical prowess and accolades.
Take the Swarmlord. This monstrosity is supposed to be the pinnacle of designed evolution and contains all the knowledge of an entity that is potentially older than anything else in existence. If it fights with something and loses, it comes back with all the memories of its past loss and integrates those memories into its tactics. It constantly learns and constantly adapts. It does not stop until it has killed everything it needs to kill, then it is reborn wherever the hive mind needs it to do the same thing again. This thing, in all honesty, should be far superior to any Primarch. It lost to bloody Marneus "number 2, gauntlets of chumptramar" Calgar of all things. A man born to be number 2. Beat an entity that has existed for presumably millennia in a constant state of bloodshed and battle, that cannot be killed permanently and learns from every loss. How does this make sense?
How pathetic would the Swarmlord be if it fought against Guilliman? Would it even be a fight? How about Primarchs that are greater fighters than Guilliman? There's enough of them. Frankly it'd be embarrassing, one can assume. Perhaps so embarrassing that the Hive Mind would recoil in shock and implode upon itself, thus killing all of the Tyranid Swarms instands
Now I'm not a Nid player, I have no vested interest in this, but doesn't it seem a bit freaking stupid that the pinnacle of all the Tyranids are about, the creature that epitomises the entire faction, is beaten by a bloody number 2 chump?! Well it does to me.
The same should be true of any character that fulfils this role for their faction, we know each has one - Ghazzy for Orks, Eldrad for Eldar, Vect for DE, Farsight for Tau, Cawl for Admech, Yarrick for IG etc etc
Geifer wrote: We've only started seeing the super hero comic approach of nemeses facing off against each other (and both walking away alive) come to the fore prior to 5th ed when the latest generation of writers took over. Basically the Ward era.
Personally I'm happy with everything not being equal, it makes things boring. The Greater Daemons, Avatar of Khaine, Ctan they are on Primarch level imo.
The Beast would be Primarch level, Ghaz is Chapter Master level or slightly above.
Nids shouldn't really have anything quite on that level until we start talking about beasties bigger than Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes as they are essentially mass produced bio materials and we're talking about characters fused with the power of God's or at least a portion of that God's power. It's no slight to not be on their level.
If there is to be inequality, it should be completely against the Imperium. That's kinda the whole point of the 40k setting - humanity is well and truly fethed.
Either way - it's not about what happens in the black library collection (because we know that any named marine will beat anything else), it's about their relevance in the faction. The "main" character of the faction should absolutely be Primarch level, if not in terms of fighting ability then in terms of tactical prowess and accolades.
Take the Swarmlord. This monstrosity is supposed to be the pinnacle of designed evolution and contains all the knowledge of an entity that is potentially older than anything else in existence. If it fights with something and loses, it comes back with all the memories of its past loss and integrates those memories into its tactics. It constantly learns and constantly adapts. It does not stop until it has killed everything it needs to kill, then it is reborn wherever the hive mind needs it to do the same thing again. This thing, in all honesty, should be far superior to any Primarch. It lost to bloody Marneus "number 2, gauntlets of chumptramar" Calgar of all things. A man born to be number 2. Beat an entity that has existed for presumably millennia in a constant state of bloodshed and battle, that cannot be killed permanently and learns from every loss. How does this make sense?
How pathetic would the Swarmlord be if it fought against Guilliman? Would it even be a fight? How about Primarchs that are greater fighters than Guilliman? There's enough of them. Frankly it'd be embarrassing, one can assume. Perhaps so embarrassing that the Hive Mind would recoil in shock and implode upon itself, thus killing all of the Tyranid Swarms instands
Now I'm not a Nid player, I have no vested interest in this, but doesn't it seem a bit freaking stupid that the pinnacle of all the Tyranids are about, the creature that epitomises the entire faction, is beaten by a bloody number 2 chump?! Well it does to me.
The same should be true of any character that fulfils this role for their faction, we know each has one - Ghazzy for Orks, Eldrad for Eldar, Vect for DE, Farsight for Tau, Cawl for Admech, Yarrick for IG etc etc
Just my thoughts anyways.
Norn Queen
Dominatrix
Might bring back the Doom of Malantai
All 3 of these have heavy Pyschic Powers and would fit the narrative well. ALso, Tyranids are the only faction without a non FW lord of war. Could be nice to get one of these as a LoW.
Or bring back Parasite of Mortex
Ygmarl broods could come back as well.
Or...maybe they could actually use some creativity and just make a new unit/model. Gasp.
Popsghostly wrote: Whatever happened to that DA box set with the DA rumored as the bad guys?
Eldar vs DE would be cool if they fight, do the Phoenix thing, and then unite against the Necrons.
So Oct releases are:
5- Lizzies BB, Ghouls Underworld
12- Psychic Awakenings w/Eldar & DE 19- Skeleton Men for AOS 26- Maybe Salamanders and IF, infilitrators and repulsor?
For as much as there is talk of the whole "Eldar Hate Necrons" thing, is there or has there ever really been any in-depth fluff of newcrons fighting eldar? the only example I can come up with is like the one-page blurb with illic fighting some 'crons in the eldar codex.
For what is supposedly one of The Big Rivalries it's weird to hear about it so infrequently.
The second Ynnari book has some Necrons V Eldar that accomplishes nothing, neither side gains anything and there's an illogical Eldar/Necron vault. Basically one more reason to ignore Ynnari.
Ymargl will probably be saved for a genestealer reboxing for the GSC. I’m more expecting the pyrovore and/or lictor (because they are EXISTING finecast) to be the models Tyranids get, if any at all. Don’t have much hope for a new Red Terror, and I very much doubt we’ll get returned culled models anytime soon.
Expecting a bio/pyrovore dual kit or a Lictor with Deathleaper bits. A reimagined Red Terror closer to Mawloc size would be cool but is more likely dropped.
regarding marines always winning in their boxed sets, I do feel obligated to note that shadowspear saw the marines all die save one who escaped. Although they managed to cripple the deamon forge. Also it sounds like all the space wolves died fofilling their objectives in Tooth and claw. So GW's gotten a liiiitle better in that regard at least
BrianDavion wrote: regarding marines always winning in their boxed sets, I do feel obligated to note that shadowspear saw the marines all die save one who escaped. Although they managed to cripple the deamon forge. Also it sounds like all the space wolves died fofilling their objectives in Tooth and claw. So GW's gotten a liiiitle better in that regard at least
The noble sacrifice for the greater goal, or to win the day, is a classic trope. They count as heavy losses, but do count as wins.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding marines always winning in their boxed sets, I do feel obligated to note that shadowspear saw the marines all die save one who escaped. Although they managed to cripple the deamon forge. Also it sounds like all the space wolves died fofilling their objectives in Tooth and claw. So GW's gotten a liiiitle better in that regard at least
Dude we're not on about the boxed sets, we're on about the campaigns.
or make a general discussion thread about it, because at this point, people offering to fight GW for marines existing is derailing pretty much every news/rumor thread.
Personally I'm happy with everything not being equal, it makes things boring. The Greater Daemons, Avatar of Khaine, Ctan they are on Primarch level imo.
The Beast would be Primarch level, Ghaz is Chapter Master level or slightly above.
Nids shouldn't really have anything quite on that level until we start talking about beasties bigger than Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes as they are essentially mass produced bio materials and we're talking about characters fused with the power of God's or at least a portion of that God's power. It's no slight to not be on their level.
If there is to be inequality, it should be completely against the Imperium. That's kinda the whole point of the 40k setting - humanity is well and truly fethed.
Either way - it's not about what happens in the black library collection (because we know that any named marine will beat anything else), it's about their relevance in the faction. The "main" character of the faction should absolutely be Primarch level, if not in terms of fighting ability then in terms of tactical prowess and accolades.
Take the Swarmlord. This monstrosity is supposed to be the pinnacle of designed evolution and contains all the knowledge of an entity that is potentially older than anything else in existence. If it fights with something and loses, it comes back with all the memories of its past loss and integrates those memories into its tactics. It constantly learns and constantly adapts. It does not stop until it has killed everything it needs to kill, then it is reborn wherever the hive mind needs it to do the same thing again. This thing, in all honesty, should be far superior to any Primarch. It lost to bloody Marneus "number 2, gauntlets of chumptramar" Calgar of all things. A man born to be number 2. Beat an entity that has existed for presumably millennia in a constant state of bloodshed and battle, that cannot be killed permanently and learns from every loss. How does this make sense?
How pathetic would the Swarmlord be if it fought against Guilliman? Would it even be a fight? How about Primarchs that are greater fighters than Guilliman? There's enough of them. Frankly it'd be embarrassing, one can assume. Perhaps so embarrassing that the Hive Mind would recoil in shock and implode upon itself, thus killing all of the Tyranid Swarms instands
Now I'm not a Nid player, I have no vested interest in this, but doesn't it seem a bit freaking stupid that the pinnacle of all the Tyranids are about, the creature that epitomises the entire faction, is beaten by a bloody number 2 chump?! Well it does to me.
The same should be true of any character that fulfils this role for their faction, we know each has one - Ghazzy for Orks, Eldrad for Eldar, Vect for DE, Farsight for Tau, Cawl for Admech, Yarrick for IG etc etc
Just my thoughts anyways.
Norn Queen
Dominatrix
Might bring back the Doom of Malantai
All 3 of these have heavy Pyschic Powers and would fit the narrative well. ALso, Tyranids are the only faction without a non FW lord of war. Could be nice to get one of these as a LoW.
Or bring back Parasite of Mortex
Ygmarl broods could come back as well.
Or...maybe they could actually use some creativity and just make a new unit/model. Gasp.
To be honest , loyalist primarchs aren't at primarch level anymore.
Chaos Primarchs are more powerfull in 40k than in 30k, they are all ascended demon primarchs now.
But Guilliman is weaker than his 30k counterpat. Ok, he has the Emperor's Sword, but at the same time he has died, been resurrected, and now is inside a life-support armor. And that doesn't make him useless, but hes something like Darth Vader, hes still very powerfull but not what he had been or could had been.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding marines always winning in their boxed sets, I do feel obligated to note that shadowspear saw the marines all die save one who escaped. Although they managed to cripple the deamon forge. Also it sounds like all the space wolves died fofilling their objectives in Tooth and claw. So GW's gotten a liiiitle better in that regard at least
Dude we're not on about the boxed sets, we're on about the campaigns.
My main concern for Psychic Awakening is that we're going to get more stalemate situations like Vigilus.
"Oh snap, Abaddon and Calgar are finally facing off! It's the fight of a lifetime, you don't want to miss it! Anything could happen when these two legends take the field!"
Actually Abaddon had Calgar's balls in a blender and forgot to turn the blender on. Yep. This is the guy that's supposed to be the biggest bad of the 40k universe. One bullet, one slash of a claw, that would have ended Calgar forever. Would have taken him one extra millisecond. Nope, stalemate. A draw. Everyone goes back to their ships and then leaves and Vigilus might as well not exist from here on out.
But Guilliman is weaker than his 30k counterpat. Ok, he has the Emperor's Sword, but at the same time he has died, been resurrected, and now is inside a life-support armor. And that doesn't make him useless, but hes something like Darth Vader, hes still very powerfull but not what he had been or could had been.
Except didn't the more recent fluff say he was fully healed and didn't need the armor anymore?
"Oh snap, Abaddon and Calgar are finally facing off! It's the fight of a lifetime, you don't want to miss it! Anything could happen when these two legends take the field!"
Actually Abaddon had Calgar's balls in a blender and forgot to turn the blender on. Yep. This is the guy that's supposed to be the biggest bad of the 40k universe. One bullet, one slash of a claw, that would have ended Calgar forever. Would have taken him one extra millisecond. Nope, stalemate. A draw. Everyone goes back to their ships and then leaves and Vigilus might as well not exist from here on out.
drbored wrote: Actually Abaddon had Calgar's balls in a blender and forgot to turn the blender on. Yep. This is the guy that's supposed to be the biggest bad of the 40k universe. One bullet, one slash of a claw, that would have ended Calgar forever. Would have taken him one extra millisecond. Nope, stalemate. A draw. Everyone goes back to their ships and then leaves and Vigilus might as well not exist from here on out.
But then what would they do with my half brother's shiny new Primaris mini?
If we don't get a new Dante/Mephiston/Corbulo, maybe they'll die only to be replaced by... I dunno... a resurrected (Primaris) Captain Tycho!
drbored wrote: Actually Abaddon had Calgar's balls in a blender and forgot to turn the blender on. Yep. This is the guy that's supposed to be the biggest bad of the 40k universe. One bullet, one slash of a claw, that would have ended Calgar forever. Would have taken him one extra millisecond. Nope, stalemate. A draw. Everyone goes back to their ships and then leaves and Vigilus might as well not exist from here on out.
But then what would they do with my half brother's shiny new Primaris mini?
If we don't get a new Dante/Mephiston/Corbulo, maybe they'll die only to be replaced by... I dunno... a resurrected (Primaris) Captain Tycho!
I hope Tycho stays dead. He died in Armageddon 3. It has been a few centuries since then. I hope Primaris can't resurrect that.
drbored wrote: Actually Abaddon had Calgar's balls in a blender and forgot to turn the blender on. Yep. This is the guy that's supposed to be the biggest bad of the 40k universe. One bullet, one slash of a claw, that would have ended Calgar forever. Would have taken him one extra millisecond. Nope, stalemate. A draw. Everyone goes back to their ships and then leaves and Vigilus might as well not exist from here on out.
But then what would they do with my half brother's shiny new Primaris mini?
If we don't get a new Dante/Mephiston/Corbulo, maybe they'll die only to be replaced by... I dunno... a resurrected (Primaris) Captain Tycho!
It does mention that Calgars wounds healed but he wasn't fit to return to field duties, so don't be shocked if his next mini is a dread.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding marines always winning in their boxed sets, I do feel obligated to note that shadowspear saw the marines all die save one who escaped. Although they managed to cripple the deamon forge. Also it sounds like all the space wolves died fofilling their objectives in Tooth and claw. So GW's gotten a liiiitle better in that regard at least
Dude we're not on about the boxed sets, we're on about the campaigns.
Didn't the Blood Angels Loose shield of Bhaal?
Nah, specifically they cite it as yet another one of those 'we won, but at what cost' moments and it's called a pyrrhic victory for the Blood Angels.
Also Shadowspear still sees the Marines win. It literally says they won the battle, but at great cost. Same for Tooth and Claw. The Vigilus Campaign book still says they win. Again. At great cost, sure, but there isn't a narrative event in 40k's history that isn't 'at great cost'. The term is meaningless in 40k cause it gets strapped on to every single battle and has no actual impact on the setting. Why not let someone other than the Marines win the Starter Box story event for a change? Orks and Eldar have been kicking around for decades and not managed to win a single one!
Doesn't seem like Phoenix Rising is gonna be providing any LoW for the Deldar though, pretty sure Drazhar+Incubi is all we're gonna see for Spiky Elves. They haven't actually shown off the Incubi kit though so I'm desperately hoping that at least the Incubi main kit will get something new or different! Not just literally be the exact same unit but in plastic with no rule changes or equipment changes.
Somehow the Marines will still win, albeit at great cost.
It's especially handy to cull the old marines, between the casualties and the rubicon, and the infinite generation of primaris from Cawl (seriously this guy had what ? more marines than a space marine legion in his secret closet ? ). Great cost doesn't seem that grim.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding marines always winning in their boxed sets, I do feel obligated to note that shadowspear saw the marines all die save one who escaped. Although they managed to cripple the deamon forge. Also it sounds like all the space wolves died fofilling their objectives in Tooth and claw. So GW's gotten a liiiitle better in that regard at least
Dude we're not on about the boxed sets, we're on about the campaigns.
Didn't the Blood Angels Loose shield of Bhaal?
The Imperial Guard had lost before the Blood Angels ever turned up, then the Necrons blew up the whole system.
Stormonu wrote: Has no one considered the BA vs. ‘Nids will be a “back in time” book instead of a rematch?
BA didnt have primaris "back in time", so no, they will not touch that subject.
There is no way to make sense of a BA vs. Nids setup.
Also that won't give us resolutions or progression to any plot points - something GW have said these campaigns will give us so it's even less likely.
Honestly, its hard to use Tyranids in any kind of deeper plot or narrative. The recent run in with BA is a good example of how horrible the tyranids are for an overall narrative.
What could possibly make for a good tyranid plot in a larger campaign?
Part of the problem is that the official fluff for the Tyranids sucks. If they were extra-galactic predators, enslavers, and flesh-crafters like they were in Rogue Trader they could have character and motivations and so on.
Stormonu wrote: Has no one considered the BA vs. ‘Nids will be a “back in time” book instead of a rematch?
BA didnt have primaris "back in time", so no, they will not touch that subject.
There is no way to make sense of a BA vs. Nids setup.
Also that won't give us resolutions or progression to any plot points - something GW have said these campaigns will give us so it's even less likely.
Honestly, its hard to use Tyranids in any kind of deeper plot or narrative. The recent run in with BA is a good example of how horrible the tyranids are for an overall narrative.
What could possibly make for a good tyranid plot in a larger campaign?
Hive Fleet Tiamet would be an interesting plot in a campaign.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding marines always winning in their boxed sets, I do feel obligated to note that shadowspear saw the marines all die save one who escaped. Although they managed to cripple the deamon forge. Also it sounds like all the space wolves died fofilling their objectives in Tooth and claw. So GW's gotten a liiiitle better in that regard at least
Dude we're not on about the boxed sets, we're on about the campaigns.
Didn't the Blood Angels Loose shield of Bhaal?
The Imperial Guard had lost before the Blood Angels ever turned up, then the Necrons blew up the whole system.
Sisters of Battle were there too - loads of cool pics, stories etc - guess which Sub-sub faction got all the rules....
Stormonu wrote: Has no one considered the BA vs. ‘Nids will be a “back in time” book instead of a rematch?
BA didnt have primaris "back in time", so no, they will not touch that subject.
There is no way to make sense of a BA vs. Nids setup.
Also that won't give us resolutions or progression to any plot points - something GW have said these campaigns will give us so it's even less likely.
Honestly, its hard to use Tyranids in any kind of deeper plot or narrative. The recent run in with BA is a good example of how horrible the tyranids are for an overall narrative.
What could possibly make for a good tyranid plot in a larger campaign?
Hive Fleet Tiamet would be an interesting plot in a campaign.
Yeah. I think Tyranids would be a great plot point for a campaign. The problem is the writers. Think of the Tyranids like the Joker, "some men just want to watch the world burn". In this case its the galaxy. A foe with no motivation other than pure, total destruction. They could have a lot of stuff happen with nids that could do any of the following:
1.) Multiple hive fleets attack from several points along the galaxy (rather than a single)
2.) all the Hive fleets so far have been splinter fleets for the main actual tyranid force, and have a full scale invasion that drives all the way to Terra
3.) Force unlikely allies to join up (Imperium, Eldar, Tau) for the survival of all. Hard to see if Drukhari, Orks would be so willing, but maybe... Chaos definitely not.
4.) Tie in the Necrons (Old Gods/C'tans) fall with the Tryanids; thus this is why they became non edible machines and chose to go dormant and hide underground to live and fight again another day. Perhaps have the Necrons/C'tan "join" the Imperium to fight this great invasion which was foreseen.
5.) A MASSIVE Shadow in the Warp that severs the Emperors Psykic connection affecting the entire Imperium. Not a complete "off" but more like a sputtering effect, where he is constantly fighting it.
6.) Tyranids invade the Eye of Terror (chaos tyranid biomorphs).
7.) Tyranids integrate Primaris Gene Seed into new Biomorphs.
8.) The Imperium sends extra Galactic scouts/strike forces to scout out more about the Tyranids.
9.) Have it end with a Battle of Wills where the Eldar and Emperor (and other Pyskers) have to mind meld to attempt a "Sundering" of the Shadow of the Warp to cut of the Hive Minds ability to control the swarm. This works, but creates a massive Psychic backlash that kills millions of pyskers (maybe a main character), opens new portals/gateways around the galaxy that spawns more daemons. Think, mini "eye of terror" black holes popping up all across the galaxy.
10.) After the Sundering you now have pockets of all factions who were temporary allies spread all across the galaxy. The imperium is pockets of systems without a strong connection and a new "Great Crusade" to Re-unify the Imperium.
Dynas wrote: Yeah. I think Tyranids would be a great plot point for a campaign. The problem is the writers. Think of the Tyranids like the Joker, "some men just want to watch the world burn". In this case its the galaxy. A foe with no motivation other than pure, total destruction.
I would tend to think of the Tyranid as Hobbesian "State of Nature" nightmares. That is, the terrifying state of "naturalistic" intentionality, bent on sole survival. I wouldn't, personally, give the Hive Mind a sociopathic bent, because, well, I wouldn't really care to either anthropomorphic something so "alien" but also, not dilute the naturalistic biological "evolutionary" horror of it. But that is me personally. I don't see Tyraids as "destruction" rather, another force of "differential" Order, one of less of a less human seeming "intentionality" and more of brute, evolutionary, biological determinism. That is, "survival of the fittest," taken it a nightmarish, brutal, extreme.
In that sense, well, they would be, to me, distinctly at odds with every other faction and I'd be OK with that. Then again, I am not a Tyranid player though.
The ultimate problem with tyranids is that they cannot win. As in, if the writers acknowledge their victories, they will also have to acknowledge the fact that they cannot be stopped at that point with conventional means, because every time they win, they essentially regenerate their numbers and grow more troops, while every other faction loses troops, and cannot replace those losses as quickly.
So instead we have the tyranids be punching bags, which robs them, or any xenos, of any menace.
Dynas wrote: Yeah. I think Tyranids would be a great plot point for a campaign. The problem is the writers. Think of the Tyranids like the Joker, "some men just want to watch the world burn". In this case its the galaxy. A foe with no motivation other than pure, total destruction.
I would tend to think of the Tyranid as Hobbesian "State of Nature" nightmares. That is, the terrifying state of "naturalistic" intentionality, bent on sole survival. I wouldn't, personally, give the Hive Mind a sociopathic bent, because, well, I wouldn't really care to either anthropomorphic something so "alien" but also, not dilute the naturalistic biological "evolutionary" horror of it. But that is me personally. I don't see Tyraids as "destruction" rather, another force of "differential" Order, one of less of a less human seeming "intentionality" and more of brute, evolutionary, biological determinism. That is, "survival of the fittest," taken it a nightmarish, brutal, extreme.
In that sense, well, they would be, to me, distinctly at odds with every other faction and I'd be OK with that. Then again, I am not a Tyranid player though.
The problem with this is that we already know through various stories that the Hive Mind is perfectly sentient and HAS attempted to communicate on occasions, both in a Black Library short story where a hive ship directly spoke to a librarian psychically and by using Zoats as infiltrating alien diplomats. There's also the fact that Tigurius has touched the Hive Mind and experienced a sliver of the malign intellect that drives the fleets.
Cronch wrote: The ultimate problem with tyranids is that they cannot win. As in, if the writers acknowledge their victories, they will also have to acknowledge the fact that they cannot be stopped at that point with conventional means, because every time they win, they essentially regenerate their numbers and grow more troops, while every other faction loses troops, and cannot replace those losses as quickly.
So instead we have the tyranids be punching bags, which robs them, or any xenos, of any menace.
I think that is true to a point. However, clever writing and simply placing logistical realities on them, can mean that, say, Tyranids are horrific, fightening, terrifying, but not unstoppable.
Unfortunately, the sort of "rule of cool" laws that invade the general narrative, for various reasons, but mostly (to me) for marketing purposes, means that in the fluff everyone is unstoppable. Which means there is no logic of victory for anyone. Everyone is both an irresistible force and an immovable object, all at the same time. I don't think it must be like that, but it likely is the "easy button" way of uniting lore and marketing intentions.
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Platuan4th wrote: The problem with this is that we already know through various stories that the Hive Mind is perfectly sentient and HAS attempted to communicate on occasions, both in a Black Library short story where a hive ship directly spoke to a librarian psychically and by using Zoats as infiltrating alien diplomats. There's also the fact that Tigurius has touched the Hive Mind and experienced a sliver of the malign intellect that drives the fleets.
Well, I do realize that my personal interpretation will be incompatible with already established lore to some degree.
But it wasn't really my aim to say that the Hive Mind has no actual intentionality, in the sense of not being able to communicate, or reason, but I do think it is a little silly to apply "malice" to it. Is a lion's stance malicious with respect to a gazelle? Well, actually, yeah, maybe it is, to the gazelle. Actually, I think it's better to ask, is a lion's stance malicious with respect to a hyena? There again, actually, I think yes, from the hyena's standpoint. From the lion's own standpoint, it is perfectly reasonable to not consider either the gazelle or the hyena as a "peer."
But I don't think malicious stance equals a sociopathic stance, per se. The Hive Mind could simply see hatred as the direct and simple path toward it's aim of being the sole fittest living thing left at the end (of everything). Being empathetic is only advantageous when once can expect it to be reciprocated. Considering the 40k universe, I think the Hive Mind is wise to not expect that at all, instead taking the stance that it is far "safer" if everything simple is One (a part of the Hive Mind).
Dynas wrote: Yeah. I think Tyranids would be a great plot point for a campaign. The problem is the writers. Think of the Tyranids like the Joker, "some men just want to watch the world burn". In this case its the galaxy. A foe with no motivation other than pure, total destruction.
I would tend to think of the Tyranid as Hobbesian "State of Nature" nightmares. That is, the terrifying state of "naturalistic" intentionality, bent on sole survival. I wouldn't, personally, give the Hive Mind a sociopathic bent, because, well, I wouldn't really care to either anthropomorphic something so "alien" but also, not dilute the naturalistic biological "evolutionary" horror of it. But that is me personally. I don't see Tyraids as "destruction" rather, another force of "differential" Order, one of less of a less human seeming "intentionality" and more of brute, evolutionary, biological determinism. That is, "survival of the fittest," taken it a nightmarish, brutal, extreme.
.
It isn't 'survival of the fittest' at all. There is no longevity, breeding, or passing on of genes (genestealers as an ill-fitting aside). A tyranid organism is purpose built with no propagation or real expectation of survival (the fleshborer beetles for example, have an active lifespan of seconds). An organism that worked fine for millennia can be tossed out in an instant when no longer needed, and recycled into something new- the long term survival of the new or old organism doesn't matter at all. Neither does the 'fittness' of an organism. If it dies, the hive fleet can just produce new ones.
The hive fleet build tools fit to purpose, and that's to eat more. Its rather actively impractical, since farming has far more prospects for long term survival than eating literally everything and shooting all the survivors across the void between galaxies. Produce more biomass or gamble that there will be food at the other end of thousands of years (assuming you survive the journey at all). Its rather stupid, actually. If the tyranids were someone's idea of a biological terraforming weapon gone amuck (ie, at the end they produce stable planets of a certain type, but they ate their creators and turn planets into breeding nests to spread), they'd be far less silly.
There actually was an Epic campaign called Shadowsword, a whole book where the Raven Guard company operating on a mission was ensnared by an Eldar trap and wiped out to a man.
Voss wrote: It isn't 'survival of the fittest' at all. There is no longevity, breeding, or passing on of genes (genestealers as an ill-fitting aside). A tyranid organism is purpose built with no propagation or real expectation of survival (the fleshborer beetles for example, have an active lifespan of seconds). An organism that worked fine for millennia can be tossed out in an instant when no longer needed, and recycled into something new- the long term survival of the new or old organism doesn't matter at all. Neither does the 'fittness' of an organism. If it dies, the hive fleet can just produce new ones.
Hmm, well, yes, but that is if we take each Tyraid "form" as a reproductive unit. Which, while I don't know all that much about Tyranid biology, I don't think they are. Instead, Tyraids are, to me, almost haploid, in the sense that the Hive Mind is the genetic "unit" itself, each Tyranid form being only a particular functional part. Those parts exist solely for "function" and not reproduction. In the end, the function of any and all forms is simply the continued survival and propagation of the entire Tyranid Hive Mind, not maintenance of any "individual form." Granted, this is some "fuzzy" biology, but we are in a sci-fi universe, filled with "fuzzy" physics and so on, so I don't think it would be terrible.
Voss wrote: The hive fleet build tools fit to purpose, and that's to eat more. Its rather actively impractical, since farming has far more prospects for long term survival than eating literally everything and shooting all the survivors across the void between galaxies. Produce more biomass or gamble that there will be food at the other end of thousands of years (assuming you survive the journey at all). Its rather stupid, actually. If the tyranids were someone's idea of a biological terraforming weapon gone amuck (ie, at the end they produce stable planets of a certain type, but they ate their creators and turn planets into breeding nests to spread), they'd be far less silly.
Well, I do agree, but notions of farming at not only at odds with the entire thematic setting on 40k, that survival is predicated on violence. We simply must concede something, or else we have no place to start. I do think there is likely numerous ways to make Tyranids (and every other Xeno race) far less silly, but I think there is almost no chance it would be done, especially now, with the moralistic flattening the setting seems to be undergoing.
SInce 40k is an "eternal war" setting, I don't think it needs to be the case that anyone needs to finally win, just have losses and wins eventually form stalemates of sorts.
Farming is more practical for long term survival, but at present we don't really know the Tyranids real purpose. Thus far their operations have focused around powerful Hive Fleets striking deep into the Galaxy, consuming worlds in a quick manner of harvesting all bio and much mineral mass and then moving on.
They've also shown tactical awareness as some hive fleets fighting demon forces have had other fleets consume and predigest worlds, leaving them behind to be fed on by the demonic fighting fleet (since demons don't leave behind biomass when killed). It's also been used to try and get around Imperial methods of burning worlds in advance to try and starve a hive fleet out.
We've also seen them starting to construct a single planetary sized structure, for what purpose we've no idea. Furthermore its the only time we've seen them properly entrench themselves.
Tyranids are an enigma and we've no real understanding of them nor their motivations. In many ways I hope we never do, its nice to see facets of their thinking and approach, but I think they'd be weaker if we got a full on breakdown of them.
Also when talking and thinking of the Hive Mind its important to note that the Imperial reports might be wrong. One Imperial might speak to the Hive Mind, but they've no real way to verify if what they spoke to was the Mind itself; or a simple element of it. It might even have been a single organism pretending; or presenting itself as such. A Norn Queen likely could achieve it with ease.
Interesting to note though that whilst they are the most alien of all the xenos factions, they are also somewhat human too. Extreme consumption of raw resources before moving into the next site is a classic trait of human activity when left unchecked and without strict forethought and structure. At least on Earth today humans are one of the old/few species that revolves around the concept of total resource extraction.
Overread wrote: Farming is more practical for long term survival, but at present we don't really know the Tyranids real purpose. Thus far their operations have focused around powerful Hive Fleets striking deep into the Galaxy, consuming worlds in a quick manner of harvesting all bio and much mineral mass and then moving on.
They've also shown tactical awareness as some hive fleets fighting demon forces have had other fleets consume and predigest worlds, leaving them behind to be fed on by the demonic fighting fleet (since demons don't leave behind biomass when killed). It's also been used to try and get around Imperial methods of burning worlds in advance to try and starve a hive fleet out.
We've also seen them starting to construct a single planetary sized structure, for what purpose we've no idea. Furthermore its the only time we've seen them properly entrench themselves.
Tyranids are an enigma and we've no real understanding of them nor their motivations. In many ways I hope we never do, its nice to see facets of their thinking and approach, but I think they'd be weaker if we got a full on breakdown of them.
Also when talking and thinking of the Hive Mind its important to note that the Imperial reports might be wrong. One Imperial might speak to the Hive Mind, but they've no real way to verify if what they spoke to was the Mind itself; or a simple element of it. It might even have been a single organism pretending; or presenting itself as such. A Norn Queen likely could achieve it with ease.
Interesting to note though that whilst they are the most alien of all the xenos factions, they are also somewhat human too. Extreme consumption of raw resources before moving into the next site is a classic trait of human activity when left unchecked and without strict forethought and structure. At least on Earth today humans are one of the old/few species that revolves around the concept of total resource extraction.
Can't remember. Was there fluff about the Old Ones creating the younger races including the Tyranids to fight the entities in the Warp?
Overread wrote: Farming is more practical for long term survival, but at present we don't really know the Tyranids real purpose. Thus far their operations have focused around powerful Hive Fleets striking deep into the Galaxy, consuming worlds in a quick manner of harvesting all bio and much mineral mass and then moving on.
They've also shown tactical awareness as some hive fleets fighting demon forces have had other fleets consume and predigest worlds, leaving them behind to be fed on by the demonic fighting fleet (since demons don't leave behind biomass when killed). It's also been used to try and get around Imperial methods of burning worlds in advance to try and starve a hive fleet out.
We've also seen them starting to construct a single planetary sized structure, for what purpose we've no idea. Furthermore its the only time we've seen them properly entrench themselves.
Tyranids are an enigma and we've no real understanding of them nor their motivations. In many ways I hope we never do, its nice to see facets of their thinking and approach, but I think they'd be weaker if we got a full on breakdown of them.
Also when talking and thinking of the Hive Mind its important to note that the Imperial reports might be wrong. One Imperial might speak to the Hive Mind, but they've no real way to verify if what they spoke to was the Mind itself; or a simple element of it. It might even have been a single organism pretending; or presenting itself as such. A Norn Queen likely could achieve it with ease.
Interesting to note though that whilst they are the most alien of all the xenos factions, they are also somewhat human too. Extreme consumption of raw resources before moving into the next site is a classic trait of human activity when left unchecked and without strict forethought and structure. At least on Earth today humans are one of the old/few species that revolves around the concept of total resource extraction.
I like the vagueness of not knowing everything about them. The have a lot of parallels to Yuzhaan Vong in the Star Wars EU. Pure biological, a living planet, seemingly endless resources( which turns out to not be the case.)
The biggest thing to limit/attack Tyranid logistics would be to sever/weaken the hive mind powers. This would limit the fighting effectiveness and thus put some sort of "limit" on the amount of resources they could "process/recycle". Having a bunch of strong Pyskers (emperor, tiggy, Eldar, ork will, etc...) severely "sever or dampen" the connection could be that victory but still allow for eternal war.
SkullzInfinity wrote: Personally I think it's crap that Marines and Spikey Marines between them have like 8 super characters no-one else can touch. I'd like every Xenos faction to get at least one Special Character comparable to a Primarch as well, see no reason for only the Marines to literally hoard every single strongest character in the entire setting for them and them alone.
Damn right, give me a Ghazghkull just as strong as Primarch. Buff that pathetic loser Swarmlord who's constantly dying to everyone he fights too. Avatar of Khaine as well but, at this stage, I think hoping for the Avi of Khainey to do anything but die is pointless.
Bets that Phoenix Rising sees an Avatar of Khaine wake up, trip, and die in seconds?
It's a "can he die" issue. Having Bjorn The Washing Machine kill Magnus or a random intercessor marine gun down an Avatar of Khaine is fine to GW because those characters are available to die in order to show how cool somebody is.
Yeah, if the hive mind's goal was just survival of the species, you'd think they would have come up with the idea of agriculture by now. Then again, the latest codex does mention that hive fleet that it just sitting there guarding a world, so maybe they finally discovered the idea and created an agri-world to start farming.
Then again, they may not care, even though their strategy seems self-defeating. I mean, does any animal or insect care about exhausting it's resources? And especially for Tyranids, they don't actually need enough resources to keep any of the lesser creatures alive. They are all expendable. The worker bees can all die off, they only kneed the queen bees to survive the winter.
Perhaps they are intentionally trying to devour as much as possible not to get a greater amount of material, but the greatest variety in order to create stronger organisms. Or maybe they are just driven by pure insatiable irrational animistic hunger. Like most things in 40k, it's probably best left vague.
Well, I do agree, but notions of farming at not only at odds with the entire thematic setting on 40k, that survival is predicated on violence. We simply must concede something, or else we have no place to start.
.
It isn't at odds at all. They'd be traveling from system to system and effectively forcibly terraforming planets into Death Worlds (by human standards). Food and nests for Tyranids, dangerous to deadly to everyone else. And at the end of each nesting cycle they'd push out excess tyranid creatures to new worlds. Still a major threat, but one that's internally consistent and appropriate to a purely biological species.
Overread wrote: Farming is more practical for long term survival, but at present we don't really know the Tyranids real purpose. Thus far their operations have focused around powerful Hive Fleets striking deep into the Galaxy, consuming worlds in a quick manner of harvesting all bio and much mineral mass and then moving on.
They've also shown tactical awareness as some hive fleets fighting demon forces have had other fleets consume and predigest worlds, leaving them behind to be fed on by the demonic fighting fleet (since demons don't leave behind biomass when killed). It's also been used to try and get around Imperial methods of burning worlds in advance to try and starve a hive fleet out.
We've also seen them starting to construct a single planetary sized structure, for what purpose we've no idea. Furthermore its the only time we've seen them properly entrench themselves.
Tyranids are an enigma and we've no real understanding of them nor their motivations. In many ways I hope we never do, its nice to see facets of their thinking and approach, but I think they'd be weaker if we got a full on breakdown of them.
Also when talking and thinking of the Hive Mind its important to note that the Imperial reports might be wrong. One Imperial might speak to the Hive Mind, but they've no real way to verify if what they spoke to was the Mind itself; or a simple element of it. It might even have been a single organism pretending; or presenting itself as such. A Norn Queen likely could achieve it with ease.
Interesting to note though that whilst they are the most alien of all the xenos factions, they are also somewhat human too. Extreme consumption of raw resources before moving into the next site is a classic trait of human activity when left unchecked and without strict forethought and structure. At least on Earth today humans are one of the old/few species that revolves around the concept of total resource extraction.
Can't remember. Was there fluff about the Old Ones creating the younger races including the Tyranids to fight the entities in the Warp?
No. Tyranids were not included.
What makes the Tyranids so interesting is that they were not created by the Old Ones and are from another galaxy. Same reason why Necrons and C'tan are interesting. If they retconned it and said "lol nope, Old Ones made everything", well, that would be disappointing, imo.
Voss wrote: It isn't at odds at all. They'd be traveling from system to system and effectively forcibly terraforming planets into Death Worlds (by human standards). Food and nests for Tyranids, dangerous to deadly to everyone else. And at the end of each nesting cycle they'd push out excess tyranid creatures to new worlds. Still a major threat, but one that's internally consistent and appropriate to a purely biological species.
Well, I think that is fair. But it depends on how the Hive Mind construes the nature of competition. In our biological paradigm, in fact, the only one we know of, it makes sense that lions don't want to exterminate gazelles. Since, if they did, what would they eat? Sure, something else, until there is nothing else they could eat. Then eat each other. Which is a losing game, if the aim is to have as many lions alive as possible. You'd get the "best" lion at the end, but that would be the last lion, since it would have nothing to eat. Of course, it could adapt to eat plants then start this anew, but it's the same losing paradigm.
However, I'd imagine a slightly more nuanced paradigm. Rather, the Hive Mind doesn't just want to be "the fittest" life form in an array of lifeforms, it is actually attempting to bring all biodiversity under itself. That is, make All Things (all living things) parts of the One Thing (the Hive Mind). In this way, the Hive Mind is always the "fittest thing" since it is all things. There is no competition outside it's own biodiversity. No exotic living threats. More importantly no conscious directed threats. The only consciousness is the Hive Mind. In a way, the Hive Mind would be a sort of union between a sort of Hegelian notion of Absolute Spirit and the God of Intelligent Design.
In this sense, the galaxy or wherever the Tyranids came from is already as "biodiverse" as it can be, that is, the whole thing is populated by Tyranid Hive Mind entities. At that point, since there would be nothing living to have to compete with besides itself, it can find it "equilibrium state" of, say, photosynthetic Tyranid forms and those that would eat them keeping the system homeostatic.
It's only once the Hive Mind realized there was a new set of external threats that it sends out fleets, fleets that are in "war mode" to eliminate threats with maximal efficiency (that is, with no other purpose). Until the point where the external (i.e. consciousness outside the Hive Mind) existential threat is low, at which point, it is safe for the Hive Mind to open those places to it's own internal form of competition (i.e. full biodiversity, which means photosynthetic, etc. Tyranid forms).
Of course, I just made all of this up on the spot. I'd think that competent writers, those with actual skills and talents (i.e. not me), could likely do even better. Or, should do better. I'm not saying my paradigm is perfect, by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think it has a better conceptual framework at hand than what we usually get.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: No. Tyranids were not included.
What makes the Tyranids so interesting is that they were not created by the Old Ones and are from another galaxy. Same reason why Necrons and C'tan are interesting. If they retconned it and said "lol nope, Old Ones made everything", well, that would be disappointing, imo.
Agree 100%. Tyranids representing the 'Other', the cosmic horror from outside, the 'Here There Be Monsters' on the map is much more compelling conceptually than Darth Vader built C-3PO.
Personally I'm happy with everything not being equal, it makes things boring. The Greater Daemons, Avatar of Khaine, Ctan they are on Primarch level imo.
The Beast would be Primarch level, Ghaz is Chapter Master level or slightly above.
Nids shouldn't really have anything quite on that level until we start talking about beasties bigger than Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes as they are essentially mass produced bio materials and we're talking about characters fused with the power of God's or at least a portion of that God's power. It's no slight to not be on their level.
If there is to be inequality, it should be completely against the Imperium. That's kinda the whole point of the 40k setting - humanity is well and truly fethed.
Either way - it's not about what happens in the black library collection (because we know that any named marine will beat anything else), it's about their relevance in the faction. The "main" character of the faction should absolutely be Primarch level, if not in terms of fighting ability then in terms of tactical prowess and accolades.
Take the Swarmlord. This monstrosity is supposed to be the pinnacle of designed evolution and contains all the knowledge of an entity that is potentially older than anything else in existence. If it fights with something and loses, it comes back with all the memories of its past loss and integrates those memories into its tactics. It constantly learns and constantly adapts. It does not stop until it has killed everything it needs to kill, then it is reborn wherever the hive mind needs it to do the same thing again. This thing, in all honesty, should be far superior to any Primarch. It lost to bloody Marneus "number 2, gauntlets of chumptramar" Calgar of all things. A man born to be number 2. Beat an entity that has existed for presumably millennia in a constant state of bloodshed and battle, that cannot be killed permanently and learns from every loss. How does this make sense?
How pathetic would the Swarmlord be if it fought against Guilliman? Would it even be a fight? How about Primarchs that are greater fighters than Guilliman? There's enough of them. Frankly it'd be embarrassing, one can assume. Perhaps so embarrassing that the Hive Mind would recoil in shock and implode upon itself, thus killing all of the Tyranid Swarms instands
Now I'm not a Nid player, I have no vested interest in this, but doesn't it seem a bit freaking stupid that the pinnacle of all the Tyranids are about, the creature that epitomises the entire faction, is beaten by a bloody number 2 chump?! Well it does to me.
The same should be true of any character that fulfils this role for their faction, we know each has one - Ghazzy for Orks, Eldrad for Eldar, Vect for DE, Farsight for Tau, Cawl for Admech, Yarrick for IG etc etc
Just my thoughts anyways.
While i agree Swarmlord should smash Calgar i believe there should be a limit to how powerful it can actually become, boost one attribute and it can have a negative effect on another, sure it can adapt etc but i still see Godly Beings such as the C'tan, Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons and Primarchs being a league above what is essentially a supped up Hive Tyrant no matter how much it adapts or learns. Still there is no shame in that, we're talking about it being 2nd only to beings that are literally infused with supernatural Godly power. When it comes up against anything else it should reign supreme.
TedNugent wrote: Mods, please. Pages of OT discussion about Ghazghkull and the Tyranid hivemind - does this have anything to do with Psychic Awakening N&R?
This thread is difficult to read.
No but it's OT discussion or half a week of nothing.
Cronch wrote: The ultimate problem with tyranids is that they cannot win. As in, if the writers acknowledge their victories, they will also have to acknowledge the fact that they cannot be stopped at that point with conventional means, because every time they win, they essentially regenerate their numbers and grow more troops, while every other faction loses troops, and cannot replace those losses as quickly.
So instead we have the tyranids be punching bags, which robs them, or any xenos, of any menace.
But that isn't really true. You can literally just take something like Gryphonne IV, make a book out of it, detail it, and that's more than good enough. 40k always works on the logic of almost no victory, no matter how big, translating to anything coming down. Iyanden can lose literally 90% of their population and literally go on in the Fluff almost exactly as they always have. The Tyranid can have a book about them winning just as much as anyone else. You just need to pick a particular important point, give them an enemy against who them triumphing gives Tyranid players a chance to for once feel satisfaction and as if they are cool guys who can win against tough opponents sometimes, and presto you're done.
Also I don't see why the Swarmlord should be weaker than 'godly beings'. Warp Gods are literally just massive psychic collectives in this. The Hive Mind is already so strong it blocks out the Warp. No reason a massive psychic entity like that isn't just as comparable to a 'godly being' as Gork or Mork or the Emperor.
But, to stick with Phoenix Rising: I wonder when we'll see the release date drop. It's this month apparently so I'd expect we should pretty soon know when it's actually coming out.
Manchu wrote: I heard there was. Slaaneshi symbol at the end of the Psychoc Awakening Twitch stream earlier.
To what does that refer? Emp Kids? Something about Eldar?
It was the not so much the end of Psychic Awakening as the beginning of their Four Warlords coverage starting with the Emperors Children player who drew that on screen
Cronch wrote: The ultimate problem with tyranids is that they cannot win. As in, if the writers acknowledge their victories, they will also have to acknowledge the fact that they cannot be stopped at that point with conventional means, because every time they win, they essentially regenerate their numbers and grow more troops, while every other faction loses troops, and cannot replace those losses as quickly.
So instead we have the tyranids be punching bags, which robs them, or any xenos, of any menace.
The tyranids are one of the most frustrating plot points of 40k.
Necrons seem unstoppable but there are a finite number of them and they sleep for most of the time.
Orks can be beat, but it's hard to put them down completely.
Chaos cults can be destroyed (or at worst, exterminatus'd)
Tyranids are a never-ending plague that is slowly consuming the entire galaxy one hundred planets at a time. If something drastic doesn't change, then the Tyranids WILL win.
The main thing that I think will keep that from happening is Chaos realizing "Crap, if everything is eaten by the tyranids, then there wont be any more emotions to feed us" and joining the fight against the Tyranids, but that won't happen because Chaos is too busy fighting against everything else and seems content to ignore the Tyranids completely.
chaos isn't ignoring 'nids though, chaos and 'nids do fight. although I think a real intreasting story would be a world that defends against tyranids along side space marine saviors. only to be wiped out by an inqusitor when it's revealed said chaos marines where the Iron Warriors or something
Cronch wrote: The ultimate problem with tyranids is that they cannot win. As in, if the writers acknowledge their victories, they will also have to acknowledge the fact that they cannot be stopped at that point with conventional means, because every time they win, they essentially regenerate their numbers and grow more troops, while every other faction loses troops, and cannot replace those losses as quickly.
So instead we have the tyranids be punching bags, which robs them, or any xenos, of any menace.
The tyranids are one of the most frustrating plot points of 40k.
Necrons seem unstoppable but there are a finite number of them and they sleep for most of the time.
Orks can be beat, but it's hard to put them down completely.
Chaos cults can be destroyed (or at worst, exterminatus'd)
Tyranids are a never-ending plague that is slowly consuming the entire galaxy one hundred planets at a time. If something drastic doesn't change, then the Tyranids WILL win.
The main thing that I think will keep that from happening is Chaos realizing "Crap, if everything is eaten by the tyranids, then there wont be any more emotions to feed us" and joining the fight against the Tyranids, but that won't happen because Chaos is too busy fighting against everything else and seems content to ignore the Tyranids completely.
I wouldn't say they ignore Tyranids completely. There is that fluff piece about the carnage of a Tyranid attack being bloody enough to open a rift for Khorne Daemons to rush out and be WTF confused. Then the daemons and tyranids threw down in an epic fight. Seriously though, both Necron and Daemons are perfect for fighting Tyranids. No matter what they don't leave any biomass behind.
Cronch wrote: The ultimate problem with tyranids is that they cannot win. As in, if the writers acknowledge their victories, they will also have to acknowledge the fact that they cannot be stopped at that point with conventional means, because every time they win, they essentially regenerate their numbers and grow more troops, while every other faction loses troops, and cannot replace those losses as quickly.
So instead we have the tyranids be punching bags, which robs them, or any xenos, of any menace.
The tyranids are one of the most frustrating plot points of 40k.
Necrons seem unstoppable but there are a finite number of them and they sleep for most of the time.
Orks can be beat, but it's hard to put them down completely.
Chaos cults can be destroyed (or at worst, exterminatus'd)
Tyranids are a never-ending plague that is slowly consuming the entire galaxy one hundred planets at a time. If something drastic doesn't change, then the Tyranids WILL win.
The main thing that I think will keep that from happening is Chaos realizing "Crap, if everything is eaten by the tyranids, then there wont be any more emotions to feed us" and joining the fight against the Tyranids, but that won't happen because Chaos is too busy fighting against everything else and seems content to ignore the Tyranids completely.
I wouldn't say they ignore Tyranids completely. There is that fluff piece about the carnage of a Tyranid attack being bloody enough to open a rift for Khorne Daemons to rush out and be WTF confused. Then the daemons and tyranids threw down in an epic fight. Seriously though, both Necron and Daemons are perfect for fighting Tyranids. No matter what they don't leave any biomass behind.
Demons are pretty bad against Nids as they're weakened massively by the Warp Shadow and they don't get any energy from emotions either.
TedNugent wrote: Mods, please. Pages of OT discussion about Ghazghkull and the Tyranid hivemind - does this have anything to do with Psychic Awakening N&R?
This thread is difficult to read.
No but it's OT discussion or half a week of nothing.
I'll take the half a week of nothing, thanks. There's a designated place for OT discussion; this is the designated space for News and Rumors. I expect to find News and/or Rumors here, not rambling postings about alien punching bags.
It might be hard to find to be fair, but the reason people are talking about Nids, Chaos and Orks is because there are RUMOURS about the next PA books and all are included.
Cronch wrote: The ultimate problem with tyranids is that they cannot win. As in, if the writers acknowledge their victories, they will also have to acknowledge the fact that they cannot be stopped at that point with conventional means, because every time they win, they essentially regenerate their numbers and grow more troops, while every other faction loses troops, and cannot replace those losses as quickly.
So instead we have the tyranids be punching bags, which robs them, or any xenos, of any menace.
The tyranids are one of the most frustrating plot points of 40k.
Necrons seem unstoppable but there are a finite number of them and they sleep for most of the time.
Orks can be beat, but it's hard to put them down completely.
Chaos cults can be destroyed (or at worst, exterminatus'd)
Tyranids are a never-ending plague that is slowly consuming the entire galaxy one hundred planets at a time. If something drastic doesn't change, then the Tyranids WILL win.
The main thing that I think will keep that from happening is Chaos realizing "Crap, if everything is eaten by the tyranids, then there wont be any more emotions to feed us" and joining the fight against the Tyranids, but that won't happen because Chaos is too busy fighting against everything else and seems content to ignore the Tyranids completely.
I wouldn't say they ignore Tyranids completely. There is that fluff piece about the carnage of a Tyranid attack being bloody enough to open a rift for Khorne Daemons to rush out and be WTF confused. Then the daemons and tyranids threw down in an epic fight. Seriously though, both Necron and Daemons are perfect for fighting Tyranids. No matter what they don't leave any biomass behind.
Demons are pretty bad against Nids as they're weakened massively by the Warp Shadow and they don't get any energy from emotions either.
Which makes necrons even better at fighting nids, as the C'tan don't use the Warp for their powers.
A lot of people called old crons metal nids, because they have similar goals to the nids. To me that's not a bad thing, in fact it was a perfect set up to have a casus belli between Tyranids and necrons.
The tyranids may not get biomass from the necrons, but the C'tan in the old lore wouldn't have liked tyranids poaching their cattle. Think of two apex predators fighting over prey in the same ecoystem; that's what OldCrons and Nids would have been like.
Now though its not that clear cut and a bit wishy washy, imo, with the whole biotransference thing. If the necrons just needed experiments, they could just capture a bunch of specimens and breed them in captivity. In the old fluff you could make the case that the C'tan wanted their food "free range".
I don't know, it just feels like the old necron fluff would have been better suited to a necron / tyranid conflict. The whole Silent King and bio-transference motive doesn't feel right. Maybe I just prefer old horror crons to grumpy old Egyptian crons.
TedNugent wrote: Mods, please. Pages of OT discussion about Ghazghkull and the Tyranid hivemind - does this have anything to do with Psychic Awakening N&R?
This thread is difficult to read.
No but it's OT discussion or half a week of nothing.
If there's no news, it would be better if there was a week of nothing - until there is news.
This is for news and rumors. General lore discussion is that way ->
TedNugent wrote: Mods, please. Pages of OT discussion about Ghazghkull and the Tyranid hivemind - does this have anything to do with Psychic Awakening N&R?
This thread is difficult to read.
No but it's OT discussion or half a week of nothing.
If there's no news, it would be better if there was a week of nothing - until there is news.
This is for news and rumors. General lore discussion is that way ->
An Actual Englishman wrote: It might be hard to find to be fair, but the reason people are talking about Nids, Chaos and Orks is because there are RUMOURS about the next PA books and all are included.
Ted - I'll update OP with the most up to date rumour news to save people having to troll through pages of OT discussion.
Ted - I'll update OP with the most up to date rumour news to save people having to troll through pages of OT discussion.
Hope that helps.
Wouldn't it make more sense to start a new thead in the appropriate forum for OT content, rather than repeatedly bump the N&R thread with content that is neither news or rumour?
Ted - I'll update OP with the most up to date rumour news to save people having to troll through pages of OT discussion.
Hope that helps.
Wouldn't it make more sense to start a new thead in the appropriate forum for OT content, rather than repeatedly bump the N&R thread with content that is neither news or rumour?
The RUMOURED contents of the first 4 books aren't rumours or news?
The complaint as I understand it is that people are potentially missing news and rumours for the OT discussion. I've updated the OP to try and help with that.
Feel free to make a discussion in another forum if you like but I guarantee people will continue to post stuff in here because the 'conversation' flows that way after the news from Monday and rumours from the rest of the week. It was/is the same with the thread about Marine supplement rumours.
Feel free not to bump the thread yourself, mind. You could have literally followed your own advice?
nagash42 wrote: Well if the nids could land on a tomb world they could get a lot of tasty necron metals to eat. I'm interesting in the black templar vs chaos rumor.
Can they eat necrodermis though?
I mean, nids do consume some metals when they eat a planet, but one would think that necrodermis would give them some pretty bad indigestion, due to its special properties. By indigestion I mean "literally tears its way out of the poor nid's stomach"
Even if it doesn't do that, the nids would need some pretty strong acid to digest it. Necrodermis is no joke. They use that stuff to contain c'tan essences.
nagash42 wrote: Well if the nids could land on a tomb world they could get a lot of tasty necron metals to eat. I'm interesting in the black templar vs chaos rumor.
Can they eat necrodermis though?
I mean, nids do consume some metals when they eat a planet, but one would think that necrodermis would give them some pretty bad indigestion, due to its special properties. By indigestion I mean "literally tears its way out of the poor nid's stomach"
Even if it doesn't do that, the nids would need some pretty strong acid to digest it. Necrodermis is no joke. They use that stuff to contain c'tan essences.
Also necrodermis might be a heavy metal, some toxic for the nids.
Imagine a swarmfleet with leadpoisoning
I feel like that's way more likely to be a necromunda release. They are supposed to have a new book/expansion getting announced here soon.
Is there any appreciable difference? Zone Mortalis for Necromunda will still be used for Kill Team and depending on how its done may be incorporated into 40k terrain projects. Just like 40k kits can be used to make Necromunda boards.
The takeaway should be 40k style and 40k scale Zone Mortalis. In plastic.
Is there any appreciable difference? Zone Mortalis for Necromunda will still be used for Kill Team and depending on how its done may be incorporated into 40k terrain projects. Just like 40k kits can be used to make Necromunda boards.
The takeaway should be 40k style and 40k scale Zone Mortalis. In plastic.
I was commenting specifically on your suggestion that there would be rules for it in the Psychic Awakening books. People will probably use them as terrain pieces but, but I personally don't think they will get rules outside of Necromunda.
Well. Eldars coming in boxed set. No word for individual boxes next week that i saw. Full squad of banshee requires some swaps it seems for a while. Well wasn't surprise
Hmm...sad to see that the Vyper and Falcon haven't been updated since the 2nd edition. I mean, they still look great, but would have been nice to see an update?
So it sounds like the Ynnari are just getting a reprint of there WD rules, and nothing for the Harlequins? That's a shame considering the Craftworld and Dark Eldar content in the book.
Malika2 wrote: Hmm...sad to see that the Vyper and Falcon haven't been updated since the 2nd edition. I mean, they still look great, but would have been nice to see an update?
agreed, but at the same time I think that there are more pressing models in need of updating. Even if you exclude the legion of finecast aspect warriors and their associated hero leaders there's also the core guardians which are also a very old and very dated looking plastic kit .Viper and Falcon have stood the test of time, design wise at least, really rather well.
Yeah. Modeldesign-wise the Falcon and Vyper are ok.
But bundling them in (along with the Venom, etc.. ) with just 5 Banshees/Incubi is just cruel.
Hell, assuming Banshees/Incubi get decent rules, at least 10 each for a full unit in the box along with the old stuff and the special characters would've been nice (though still a painful buy-in to field a squad of the new shiny).
What a terrible way to present the new kits. Would have been better to just pit the brand new models from each side against each other and give you a full squad of 10 per side. Instead you get to have old kits you probably don't have any need for unless your just starting, and even then it's dictating what your buying too much.
That said I am excited for the book, was the normal book only available in the set though? I refuse to buy a collectors edition, those are such a scam.
Malika2 wrote: Hmm...sad to see that the Vyper and Falcon haven't been updated since the 2nd edition. I mean, they still look great, but would have been nice to see an update?
agreed, but at the same time I think that there are more pressing models in need of updating. Even if you exclude the legion of finecast aspect warriors and their associated hero leaders there's also the core guardians which are also a very old and very dated looking plastic kit .Viper and Falcon have stood the test of time, design wise at least, really rather well.
I dare you to build a Weapon platform (the old Vaul's Wrath) and enjoy the deformed feets of guardians there too.
Imho i think the Vyper it's the easiest to upgrade, since it should be the Eldar Rhino/Chimera and they have the basic build with Venoms and Starweavers/Voidweavers.
Would have pulled the trigger in a heartbeat but I have 3 vypers and 2 falcons in boxes, don't need more. Also don't need some of the extras from the dark side. Shame really. Will get the book though.
I am definitely getting the box and keeping the Dark Eldar half. Literally EVERYTHING in it is exactly what I wanted to be getting. Incubi, Scourges, Hellions, Drazhar. Yes please!
So if there are new Craftworld Attributes, does this mean that the base ones are not getting updated? Iyanden is kinda meh so if it doesn't change I may end up going custom. What Eldar really need though are new relics and warlord traits.
Red Corsair wrote: What a terrible way to present the new kits. Would have been better to just pit the brand new models from each side against each other and give you a full squad of 10 per side. Instead you get to have old kits you probably don't have any need for unless your just starting, and even then it's dictating what your buying too much.
That said I am excited for the book, was the normal book only available in the set though? I refuse to buy a collectors edition, those are such a scam.
This kind is pretty normal though. Question was just what old kits there would be. At least not wraiths again
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Sotahullu wrote: Well my hope is that they actually release those new models from the box set.
Locking them into the big box is certainly frustrating. I didn't need more banshees, but I totally intended to get 10 and Jain Zar. Now, not only does this box not give me a full squad of 10, it's got the Falcon and Vyper that I don't need (got 3 of each already), and loads of DE that I'm not interested in. Damn it.
I doubt we'll see the 'normal' release alongside anything (except the incubi), if other eldar stuff is redone as part of the next campaign book it will probably release later by a good few months
bullyboy wrote: I think the choice of miniatures in this box set may hurt their sales.
It absolutely will. People just want their new miniatures, not old or useless junk.
This is how salesmen hurt the company and ideas of other people and ruin releases. If it was like new miniatures + wave serpent and some raiders/venoms or something, everyone would take it.
And then managers are like: wait, why are aspect warriors not sellin?
Thing is so people claim but in practice these discount boxes sell. You know why? A) it's discount b) not everybody has large eldar armies and those aren't gw's main target anyway. Gw isn't looking at selling odd box or two to old players as main. They look at selling new armies.
How many of these discount boxes haven't sold out? And generally fast...if these would hurt sales don't you think that after many many many years they would have stopped those?
(and really is somebody not going to buy banshees when they come separately because of this? As if)
So far I think the only one that hasn't sold out is Wrath and Rapture - Khorne VS Slaanesh. Which is somewhat odd unless GW made a LOT more than the others because both those armies have rules now for their new models and they cross over both 40K and AoS (which might have meant GW made more boxes tahn normal). They've actually lasted so long that all the models within them are now on individual sale (which is doubly odd as some - such as the skaven Vs Flesheaters are still waiting for their two new models to be individually released).
Otherwise the other slower sale one was Genestealers VS Spacewolves and that vanished once the new Stealer codex came out (if not a bit before? I can't recall exactly).
The real issue isn't the duel box, its how long GW estimates it to last and thus when they prep to release the new content on their own. Even then the duel boxes offer a nice big discount. Heck if you just want one model set chances are you'll get them off ebay for a while for a decently discounted price.
How are people still surprised/upset after like a dozen battle boxes all done to the same tune, Shadowspear being the one exception with all new models? Many of them didn't even have one new unit, just a monopose hero. And they were all massively popular, some made people upset because stock ran out instantly.
lord_blackfang wrote: How are people still surprised/upset after like a dozen battle boxes all done to the same tune, Shadowspear being the one exception with all new models? Many of them didn't even have one new unit, just a monopose hero. And they were all massively popular, some made people upset because stock ran out instantly.
I don't think too many people are bothered by the additional models, but more so on the choice. Wave Serpent? Sure. falcon, not so much. Vyper? Hellions?
I mean, at least Jain and Banshees can embark into Falcon. Drazhar and Incubi can't all go into a Venom lol.
IDK if Drukhari would like a Raider instead of Venom, but for Craftworlds: replace Falcon with WS, and replace Vyper with a squad of Dark Reapers (they would be visually a great contrast to Banshees and Incubi - yeah I guess it's "all plastic kit" which is why no DR). Boom, sales.
But then I don't know anything about sales (except for being salesman myself for a while but whatever), maybe their practice "just works" (Todd Howard song).
Well, the boxes sell, because you get all the "stuff no one wants" basically for free. If I buy Karanak, 5 Flesh Hounds, the Enrapturess and the 3 Fiends I could have just gotten Wrath and Rapture for extra goodies. Will be the same with this one. 2 Characters and 2 Unit boxes would be 100€ easily (at least 20€ each for the characters and 30€ each for the units.) And the box will be about 125€? Thats a deal. If you don't want some of the stuff either find someone to split the box or sell it on the internet. Easy as that.
I love that there is a whole box without any marines in it <3, and I love that GW is generalizing the whole “Create your own subfaction” thing!! Very good development. I hope Sisters get the “Create your faction” thing too!!
lord_blackfang wrote: How are people still surprised/upset after like a dozen battle boxes all done to the same tune, Shadowspear being the one exception with all new models? Many of them didn't even have one new unit, just a monopose hero. And they were all massively popular, some made people upset because stock ran out instantly.
I don't think too many people are bothered by the additional models, but more so on the choice. Wave Serpent? Sure. falcon, not so much. Vyper? Hellions?
Which one sells fine as it is? Falcon or wave serpents? Gw has sales number. They know which one they can put without hurting solo sales that much.
Cinderspirit wrote: Well, the boxes sell, because you get all the "stuff no one wants" basically for free. If I buy Karanak, 5 Flesh Hounds, the Enrapturess and the 3 Fiends I could have just gotten Wrath and Rapture for extra goodies. Will be the same with this one. 2 Characters and 2 Unit boxes would be 100€ easily (at least 20€ each for the characters and 30€ each for the units.) And the box will be about 125€? Thats a deal. If you don't want some of the stuff either find someone to split the box or sell it on the internet. Easy as that.
High probability prices would be 30 -35 euro for banshees and incubi (30 if we are lucky ) and nearly 30 or 32'50 for special characters, add the book and extras and GW surely thinks it's an steal.
Malika2 wrote: Hmm...sad to see that the Vyper and Falcon haven't been updated since the 2nd edition. I mean, they still look great, but would have been nice to see an update?
agreed, but at the same time I think that there are more pressing models in need of updating. Even if you exclude the legion of finecast aspect warriors and their associated hero leaders there's also the core guardians which are also a very old and very dated looking plastic kit .Viper and Falcon have stood the test of time, design wise at least, really rather well.
Indeed, there is only a finite budget for plastic kits... much better for them to devote those resources on things that don't currently have plastic models.
I'll probably buy it as someone who just has the Start Collecting CE, but I can see why people with collections are disappointed.
I might try to convert the Falcon into a WS using some of the spare weapons I have. Maybe the vyper to a venom, but that looks like a more ambitious job.
Gotta say, there's nothing encouraging in that box.
The Vyper and Falcon are old and useless (quite poor in game, with aging molds). I don't need either, nor do I need the Jain Zar mini (though that's easy to flip). Five Banshees. If this box had been all-new models or more useful stuff, it would have been a nice pick-up on eBay. Now the Banshees will carry a super premium on eBay instead of being a reasonable purchase. On the plus side we'll see a flood of Falcons if anyone needs them (they're a direct-only model...because that's what you do with staple vehicles for a faction).
However, the book may make normal Eldar more palatable, instead of the "five or six mega-unit that the book is currently. Would love to see Alaitoc nerfed and the other Craftworlds get better options (more fluffy/useful).
As a returning Eldar player that is sex in a box and if I could afford the inevitable £100 for it, hell yes! Regretfully, I'm also collecting for AT and AoS so thats a no-go.
On the positive side its given me an idea for a force consisting of banshees, reapers and kabalites. Probably a craftworld that left it later to escape the Eldar downfall and still has some nasty ways about it, the Kabalites representing that. I've already got the Kabalites, and the old Jain Zar model, so for now it might just be a copy of that lovely collectors book for inspiration.
lord_blackfang wrote: How are people still surprised/upset after like a dozen battle boxes all done to the same tune, Shadowspear being the one exception with all new models? Many of them didn't even have one new unit, just a monopose hero. And they were all massively popular, some made people upset because stock ran out instantly.
I don't think too many people are bothered by the additional models, but more so on the choice. Wave Serpent? Sure. falcon, not so much. Vyper? Hellions?
You'd almost think GW was using their as an opportunity to clear out their warehouses of models that aren't selling.
The contents of that Box just look like they're trying to shift plastic kits that don't sell to players who want to buy the new Howling Banshees/ Incubi kits. It's a pretty scummy move from Games Workshop if so.
Darsath wrote: The contents of that Box just look like they're trying to shift plastic kits that don't sell to players who want to buy the new Howling Banshees/ Incubi kits. It's a pretty scummy move from Games Workshop if so.
I'm seeing it as "Buy the new units and get some Scourges and a Venom for free*."
Darsath wrote: The contents of that Box just look like they're trying to shift plastic kits that don't sell to players who want to buy the new Howling Banshees/ Incubi kits. It's a pretty scummy move from Games Workshop if so.
Or they're having a setup that will let people who get interested because of the box set get into it quickly...
. . . tune in next week for even more Craftworld bonuses!
New Obsessions for Kabals, Cults and Covens. They'll have to be really good to compete with existing ones (particularly for Cults and Covens), but the idea that the DE are getting nothing is flatly contradicted by the article.
Ynarri might complain though. A magazine reprint! yay.
Darsath wrote: The contents of that Box just look like they're trying to shift plastic kits that don't sell to players who want to buy the new Howling Banshees/ Incubi kits. It's a pretty scummy move from Games Workshop if so.
Well, and the Venom.
But they've done this with most boxed sets. Execution Force was assassins and some really old chaos kits. Wrath and Rapture was the new daemons finally in plastic, plus existing basics.
Really, it makes perfect sense. To sell a thing, you want a hook, and to pad it with things that don't cost you much. The older kits have already paid their outlay costs, so its really just the cost of the plastic (almost nothing) at this point. The real question is how long it will take for the individual kits to hit the shelves. Going by wrath and ruin, it could be Spring or even Summer.
Personally... I'm not all that enthused by the box or the book. This new galaxy changing story with something for everyone... kicks off with some guy's personal murder quest that doesn't matter to literally anyone else in the galaxy. He hasn't even been worth putting in the codex for years. And additional rules for two factions. So buy your DLC rules upgrade now!
The box seems to me like a "Ynarri Starter set!" more than anything. I don't think it's really supposed to attract current Eldar or Dark Eldar players outside of the few new minis.
It would be nice if all boxed sets from now on were like Shadowspear in that they have only new models/sculpts but realistically I think we all know that isn't going to happen.
The reasons GW have chosen to put these specific units in the box are kinda obvious to me too.
The rules are the most interesting thing to me, I hope there will be new stratagems and relics though, without them I don't see how they can expect to raise any faction up to the nu-Marine level.
If they did a fire prism/wave serpent instead I would not blink for a second and pick one of these up as I need a 3rd one to compelet the set.. The tax in the form of useless models I will need to re-sell to get the new plastic banshees and jain zar is horrendous... I said Id be getting new banshees and jain zar but this... I don't know if I want to pull this trigger.
Maybe I'll stick to metal banshees on ebay for now guess GW don't want my money after all.
Argive wrote: If they did a fire prism/wave serpent instead I would not blink for a second and pick one of these up as I need a 3rd one to compelet the set.. The tax in the form of useless models I will need to re-sell to get the new plastic banshees and jain zar is horrendous... I said Id be getting new banshees and jain zar but this... I don't know if I want to pull this trigger.
Maybe I'll stick to metal banshees on ebay for now guess GW don't want my money after all.
If you want a laugh head over the the sisters release thread, where some of them have the balls to complain about an entire box of nothing but new plastics all dedicated to one faction
Apparently GW should have worried about what force org slot or how many points were in the kit. It's double funny for me as a GSC player, where nearly every unit costs WAY more in dollars then points
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I love that there is a whole box without any marines in it <3, and I love that GW is generalizing the whole “Create your own subfaction” thing!!
Very good development.
I hope Sisters get the “Create your faction” thing too!!
New Obsessions for Kabals, Cults and Covens. They'll have to be really good to compete with existing ones (particularly for Cults and Covens), but the idea that the DE are getting nothing is flatly contradicted by the article.
My point is that both Craftwords and DE are getting subfaction rules. However, Craftwords then get both an extra psychic discipline *and* a whole table of powers for every one of their exarchs on top of that.
Whilst DE apparently get their subfaction traits and nothing else.
It would be a great idea if they did smaller sets to accompany these large boxes. Just the "Lords", the banshees and incubi would go a long way. Obviously the book as well.
Wait 20 years (only 8 in my case.. but still) for one kit to be made plastic at long last and you still have to wait an indefinite amount of time, or buy a box full of junk.
tneva82 wrote: Thing is so people claim but in practice these discount boxes sell. You know why? A) it's discount b) not everybody has large eldar armies and those aren't gw's main target anyway. Gw isn't looking at selling odd box or two to old players as main. They look at selling new armies.
How many of these discount boxes haven't sold out? And generally fast...if these would hurt sales don't you think that after many many many years they would have stopped those?
(and really is somebody not going to buy banshees when they come separately because of this? As if)
Wake the dead took a long time to sell out..... so of course we know this means no one likes/has intreast in Eldar and not even a boxed set with Marines can save them! ... just kidding! what I really meant was that it was a terriable deal, nothing new for eldar, and the Marine end of things was a poor deal compared to the starter sets out there
New Obsessions for Kabals, Cults and Covens. They'll have to be really good to compete with existing ones (particularly for Cults and Covens), but the idea that the DE are getting nothing is flatly contradicted by the article.
My point is that both Craftwords and DE are getting subfaction rules. However, Craftwords then get both an extra psychic discipline *and* a whole table of powers for every one of their exarchs on top of that.
Whilst DE apparently get their subfaction traits and nothing else.
Not unexpected but still a predatory practice which I wish I could punish by at least downvoting their replies by minus ten thousand angry faces. Wouldn't be so annoying if box at least packed full 10 unit squads of new models.
“new customisable Craftworld Attributes that work like the Successor Tactics in Codex: Space Marines! You’ll also find rules for Drukhari Obsessions (specifically for the Kabals, Wych Cults and Haemonculus Covens)”
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Whilst DE apparently get their subfaction traits and nothing else.
Well, also Drazar and new Incubi rules if I understood correctly.
Wake the dead took a long time to sell out..... so of course we know this means no one likes/has intreast in Eldar and not even a boxed set with Marines can save them! ... just kidding! what I really meant was that it was a terriable deal, nothing new for eldar, and the Marine end of things was a poor deal compared to the starter sets out there
The Wraithseer was new.
The reason it didn't work was that it didn't offer anything new or unique for either faction. It gave you Wraithguard, a vehicle, and a Wraithseer for the Eldar...which so does the Start Collecting set.
Marines gave you Reivers(instead of the Aggressors that Tooth & Claw gave), Inceptors(instead of the Redemptor Dreadnought), Intercessors, and a very "meh" Lieutenant sculpt/loadout.
I think another concern I have is that we're getting a "quasi...mini....codex" in the book. Updates to the new models, etc. This kills the likelihood that we'll get a proper normal Craftworld codex anytime soon (if ever). That makes me sad for proper Eldar players.
As a person who has played Eldar as a primary army for 25 years I don't give a flying feth about Dark Eldar, or Ynnari. I'm not going to convert to a "new" Eldar faction. I've no desire to ally with anything beyond maybe the occasional Harlequin troupe if the story permits. While I'm more or less done playing 40K, I am saddened for the Eldar grognards and die-hards if this means there won't be a proper replacement for their book going forward.
Model-wise, I do suspect the Aspects may get plastics one per campaign (It seems GW is likely going to continue with campaigns, once or twice a year maybe). The Eldar model range will be even more bizarre if they half-ass the release of Aspect Warriors. If it takes three or four more years to get them all, it'll be an extremely poor showing on GW's part.
Elbows wrote: I think another concern I have is that we're getting a "quasi...mini....codex" in the book. Updates to the new models, etc. This kills the likelihood that we'll get a proper normal Craftworld codex anytime soon (if ever). That makes me sad for proper Eldar players.
“new customisable Craftworld Attributes that work like the Successor Tactics in Codex: Space Marines! You’ll also find rules for Drukhari Obsessions (specifically for the Kabals, Wych Cults and Haemonculus Covens)”
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Whilst DE apparently get their subfaction traits and nothing else.
Well, also Drazar and new Incubi rules if I understood correctly.
Sorry If I'm stating the obvious but I believe that was referring to the campaign book "phoenix rising" with is 80 pages, and the first for the campaign books released for PA and covers new missions plus build your own craftworld rules..
I don't think you get any of that rules in the box. The book you get in the box set called "blood of the phoenix" is 40 pages with "some of the rules" and is called blood of the phoenix.
Will the phoenix rising book have all of the rules from blood of the phoenix ? Will you need both the box booklet and the new campaign book to have all the new rules?
My money is on who the hell knows... its GW we are talking here. They tell you nothing.
Wake the dead took a long time to sell out..... so of course we know this means no one likes/has intreast in Eldar and not even a boxed set with Marines can save them! ... just kidding! what I really meant was that it was a terriable deal, nothing new for eldar, and the Marine end of things was a poor deal compared to the starter sets out there
The Wraithseer was new.
The reason it didn't work was that it didn't offer anything new or unique for either faction. It gave you Wraithguard, a vehicle, and a Wraithseer for the Eldar...which so does the Start Collecting set.
Marines gave you Reivers(instead of the Aggressors that Tooth & Claw gave), Inceptors(instead of the Redemptor Dreadnought), Intercessors, and a very "meh" Lieutenant sculpt/loadout.
Wake the dead set, was very good value for money as a new Eldar player for me at the time. 3rd party 20% off was a sweet deal. Re-selling the marine part people were happy to buy means cost me next to nothing. Very happy with that life choice and the wave serpent!
The problem with this box is, I don't feel confident I will be able to re-sell the DE half like at all..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadenuat wrote: Blood of the Phoenix is lore if I understand it correctly; Phoenix Rising is rules.
"In addition to the miniatures, Blood of the Phoenix includes a 40-page campaign book telling the tale of the ancient grudge between those who fled the Fall aboard the space-faring Craftworlds and those who arrogantly continued the dark practices that first damned their race.
The action then follows Drazhar’s quest to cement his place in legend by slaying a Phoenix Lord in combat, and you can refight each stage of his bloodthirsty journey with three Echoes of War missions that are inspired by the narrative. Finally, the book features all of the datasheets for the models in the battlebox – including the awesome new rules for Jain Zar and Drazhar, both of whom are now utterly terrifying!"
But will this information be it?
Will the phoenix rising contain new data sheets/rules?
Elbows wrote: I think another concern I have is that we're getting a "quasi...mini....codex" in the book. Updates to the new models, etc. This kills the likelihood that we'll get a proper normal Craftworld codex anytime soon (if ever). That makes me sad for proper Eldar players.
Wake the dead took a long time to sell out..... so of course we know this means no one likes/has intreast in Eldar and not even a boxed set with Marines can save them! ... just kidding! what I really meant was that it was a terriable deal, nothing new for eldar, and the Marine end of things was a poor deal compared to the starter sets out there
The Wraithseer was new.
The reason it didn't work was that it didn't offer anything new or unique for either faction. It gave you Wraithguard, a vehicle, and a Wraithseer for the Eldar...which so does the Start Collecting set.
Marines gave you Reivers(instead of the Aggressors that Tooth & Claw gave), Inceptors(instead of the Redemptor Dreadnought), Intercessors, and a very "meh" Lieutenant sculpt/loadout.
ohh I agree, heck I was in the market for a marine box set at the time it came out to pad out my army a bit.. I bought Know no fear instead.
“new customisable Craftworld Attributes that work like the Successor Tactics in Codex: Space Marines! You’ll also find rules for Drukhari Obsessions (specifically for the Kabals, Wych Cults and Haemonculus Covens)”
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Whilst DE apparently get their subfaction traits and nothing else.
Well, also Drazar and new Incubi rules if I understood correctly.
Whelp. More rules bloat I guess as I'm not expecting a bunch of Warlord Traits, Relics, and Strats. Better internal and external balance for Eldar would be good though.
The weird thing is, it’s so easy to do dual kits with Eldar Vehicles.
Wave Serpent/ Falcon
Fire Prism/ Night Spinner (check)
Vyper/ 5-man assault transport
Works pretty much done. All you’d have to do is freshen up the kits, add a couple more weapon options in the case of the Wave Serpent, Falcon and Vyper, then profit.
I’m honestly confused by how GW handles the Eldar line. Have been for a long time.
I will most likely purchase this. However, I do acknowledge the models will be made available for sale at a later point and I anticipate the rules in this boxset will be a 'beta version of rules for a new codex to be released some time in 2020. With that codex release, we will see more Aspect Warriors in plastic.
Sarigar wrote: I will most likely purchase this. However, I do acknowledge the models will be made available for sale at a later point and I anticipate the rules in this boxset will be a 'beta version of rules for a new codex to be released some time in 2020. With that codex release, we will see more Aspect Warriors in plastic.
Yeah I think you are right. It would seem like the logical thing. but with GW you just never know.. I really hope I can find someone locally to go halves with so that I can at least recoup some of the costs. I normally would not bat an eye lid and buy to re-sell but honestly I am not confident in being able to shift all that junk and make enough to claw back with the P&P + ebay fees.
While I appreciate the Vyper, it's one of the worst aging models in the line. While the base aesthetic is okay, the build quality is very poor/frustrating. All of the older Eldar vehicles need a mold cleanup/re-cut if they don't get replaced. I did chuckle though while building three Falcons a couple months ago. I assembled three at once, and found three completely different plastics. One was the oldest pale plastic from the launch in the 90's (they used to be almost white). Then was a darker plastic, and then a third intermediate grey. That damn kit has been around for 22 years...and it shows.
Back to the Vyper. I had a couple, and just didn't care for them, so I sold them on. If they re-do the Vyper they need to bring back the damned fighting platform from 2nd edition. Why? Because it's cool. Instead they gave that stuff to the Harlequins and Dark Eldar. The Vyper with a fighting platform was never actually a model, but it was in the codex and was a cool idea, particularly back when Exarchs were characters. You could have a Phoenix Lord or a Farseer, Warlock, Exarch etc. zipping around the table on the back of one.
The Falcon is in desperate need of rules adjustments. It just serves such little purpose. Shifting it to a Transport might help? The Vyper is decidedly okay but sits in the quagmire of 60-90 point light vehicles, none of which really shine. I replaced mine with two Hornets which are better in almost every single regard and nearly as cheap now.
Darsath wrote: The contents of that Box just look like they're trying to shift plastic kits that don't sell to players who want to buy the new Howling Banshees/ Incubi kits. It's a pretty scummy move from Games Workshop if so.
Ummm that's been modus operandi for discount boxes for year. Nobody should have been surprised. They aren't going to put best selling kits on discount boxes.
If you don't want them wait for solo kits to appear. These will sell out anywav
The vid seems to confirm that drazhar is a midget compared to jain zar. seems like in nu 40k, good guys are always bigger and better than evil one. What a sad turn of event
streetsamurai wrote: The vid seems to confirm that drazhar is a midget compared to jain zar. seems like in nu 40k, good guys are always bigger and better than evil one. What a sad turn of event
I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but this was always the case. The Phoenix Lords are all considerably larger than most Eldar, and the original Jain Zar model was bigger than the original Drazhar model. This isn't a new thing.
New Obsessions for Kabals, Cults and Covens. They'll have to be really good to compete with existing ones (particularly for Cults and Covens), but the idea that the DE are getting nothing is flatly contradicted by the article.
My point is that both Craftwords and DE are getting subfaction rules. However, Craftwords then get both an extra psychic discipline *and* a whole table of powers for every one of their exarchs on top of that.
Whilst DE apparently get their subfaction traits and nothing else.
streetsamurai wrote: The vid seems to confirm that drazhar is a midget compared to jain zar. seems like in nu 40k, good guys are always bigger and better than evil one. What a sad turn of event
I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but this was always the case. The Phoenix Lords are all considerably larger than most Eldar, and the original Jain Zar model was bigger than the original Drazhar model. This isn't a new thing.
Yea but since Drazhar is rumoured to be an ex-phoenix Lord surely they should be roughly the same height?
It's also just a general aesthetic thing. The two opposing heroes from their faction are generally equal in stature to show that the duel will be a close one. Typically, if any of the duelists is to be larger, it's the 'bad guy' - to give a David vs Goliath type vibe.
Not overly impressed with these models to be honest. The Incubi are awful, they look static but have rigid, standing streams that imply movement. Drazhar looks good as a model but is too short and static. The banshees are OK and I like how the squad looks together. Jain Zar I love but she has divided opinion.
And that's it.
Meanwhile SM get release after release of awesome miniatures. Say what you like about the cowboy Dread or Primaris marines, but as models they are phenomenal. It almost feels like the Incubi and Drazhar were designed 10 years ago or rushed or something. They don't feel like they've been developed by the same model company that makes primaris marines.
Sad to see that Banshees appear to be a 5-man box. Beside meaning they're probably going to be pricy, that means in a unit of 10 you're most likely going to have a double of each model except the exarch. While the models and poses are nice, the poses are so distinct that it's going to be noticable they're duplicates.
Redemption wrote: Sad to see that Banshees appear to be a 5-man box. Beside meaning they're probably going to be pricy, that means in a unit of 10 you're most likely going to have a double of each model except the exarch. While the models and poses are nice, the poses are so distinct that it's going to be noticable they're duplicates.
I don’t think anyone was expecting the Banshees to be in a box of 10. All Aspect Warriors have come in boxes of 5 for a while now.
Overall, I think this box is a hard miss for me. The contents as a whole just looks uninspiring. Unless there are considerable changes to the Falcon and Vyper, I’d just be buying this box for the Banshees, of which, unless they too have also had big changes, I’d probably never field in a semi-competitive game anyway.
As always, I’ll wait for the reviews to come out before making a decision, but, I’m pretty much certain that I’ll be giving this one a miss and just waiting for the kits to come out separately in 6-12 months time.
As a craftworld collector, the drukhari part of the box is the only reason to buy it.
Its probably fun tho play the scenarios in the box though, as they are designed for the specific content.
I would not even bother to build the 5 banshees -If they somehow tweek the rules so its worth taking a unit of five, people will just spam their metal/fincast instead.
Really looking forward to the campaign book though. Better preorder it early on, GW stuff always sell out these days.
Drazhar is decent, but not a Phoenix Lord. Okay, maybe there will be a comic called "Lil' Phoenix Lord," but he shouldn't be one. He's just a really skillled Incubi. Arhra. Now there's Phoenix Lord, but he's fallen to Chaos, and Drazhar obviously doesn't have his suit, otherwise he would be notably larger. Drazhar can bling himself out all he wants to with broken spirit stones and other stuff, but a real Phoenix Lord doesn't need to try so hard to get attention. Just a poser. :p The Incubi have nice detail, but are static in their poses, and those arm streamers of rigidness just plain look bad. Definitely not sculpted to the motion, or lack thereof, of the models. Drukhari have a very short list of kits for plastic now, those being Grostesques, Mandrakes, Beastmaster + Beasts, and the Archon's Court; a couple of generic HQs would round things out nicely. Very happy to see this release for all of the Drukhari players out there.
Jain Zar looks good, as do the Banshees - properly leaping around and dynamically posed. While I am very happy to see new Aeldari plastic kits, the lack of attention paid to them over the years means they have quite the laundry list of plastic kits needed, those being kits for...
1. Avatar of khaine
2. Warlocks
3. Scouts/Pathfinders
4. Asurman
5. Shining Spears
6. Warp Spiders
7. Karandras
8. Striking Scorpions
9. Baharroth
10. Swooping Hawks
11. Feugan
12. Fire Dragons
13. Maugan Ra
14. Dark Reapers
That is a crap-ton of units that have been mostly ignored for more than a decade. Insanity. They really need to redo the Falcon, Vyper (both of these are among a handful of remaining models form the old pantograph days of mold making, and in no way compare to the exacting fit of the newer computer created models), and Guardians/Storm Guardians. Add to that new and emergent Phoenix Lords for Warp Spiders and Shining Spears, because people will buy them if they make them.
Is there any other army that has been given the sort of red-headed step child treatment that Aeldari has? Not even close. And so I hope there is more still on the way, because 10+ years is an egregiously long time to wait for what is only now the second plastic Aspect Warrior kit to be released.
Except not, because incubi and succubi are the same, shapeshifting demons. But then again, expecting GW to know their donkey from their kitty when it comes to real-world anything is a bit much.
The whole box is just sad. DE side of it is okay I guess, but the craftworld part is a bad joke. Understrength unit of banshees, hero and two ancient vehicle kits does not enticing deal make.
It must have occured to at least a few people, that the units in the box are likely more heavily involved in the campaign book. Of which (as stated by the article) several units and characters central to the story get new rules. The banshees and incubi, Jain Zar and Drazhar are stated separately as getting new rules, so there are more units involved than just those new kits.
It might not improve any of the models in the box, but it might. The wrist slitting is premature, and I'm just excited for new models, new rules, and a campaign to change things up a bit.
hmm, I may pick this up - but will be looking to pawn the Dark Eldar stuff. Bracing for sticker shock - and how much taller the new banshees will be to my old metal ones.
Anyone planning to go Ynarri on this set? Curious if anyone will use both sides for their army....
shabbadoo wrote: Drazhar is decent, but not a Phoenix Lord. Okay, maybe there will be a comic called "Lil' Phoenix Lord," but he shouldn't be one. He's just a really skillled Incubi. Arha. Now there's Phoenix Lord, but he's fallen to Chaos
According to the Incubi he didn't fall, he was possessed but managed to hold the demon at bay from corrupting his spirit (although it controlled his body) and when he was killed by his disciples his soul escaped, pure, and inhabited those followers, so could have been reborn as other Phoenix Lords are. The other story is clearly Craftworld propaganda.
Stormonu wrote: hmm, I may pick this up - but will be looking to pawn the Dark Eldar stuff. Bracing for sticker shock - and how much taller the new banshees will be to my old metal ones.
Anyone planning to go Ynarri on this set? Curious if anyone will use both sides for their army....
I'll be buying 2 of these boxes and keeping everything, will take me up to ~50 Incubi, but 30 or so are metal and about 15 are finecrap so I'll like having the 10 plastics. I have 5 venoms, but sometimes want to run seven so two more is perfect. I have 15 scourges but would be happy for 2 more units as then I can paint them up in my Ynnari colour scheme instead of my DE one. I have 2 old Drazhars, which will become Klaivexes I think. I only have 1 Falcon as I started collecting Craftworld Eldar Eldar after they became rubbish, so will be glad to round that out to 3. I don't have any banshees (same reason I only have 1 Falcon) and don't have Jain or any Vypers, so getting some for my collecting will be nice. I can use the second Drazhar I get to convert a badass looking Visarch (I'm not a huge fan of the current Visarch, even though I have one). Don't know what to do with Jain 2. Maybe some head and arm swaps and make her into a Harlequin. Dark Eldar are my first love, but I play all 3? 4? 5? 7? 8? Eldar factions. Hard to say how many Eldar factions there are (Do Ynarri count separately? Are Kabal/Coven/Cult/Mercs 1, 3 or 4 factions? I can still count my Corsairs right?).
How can you tell? We don't see their genitals and we don't even know what eldar genitals look like...
Sunny Side Up wrote: If that were the case, the implication would also be that Incubi are Daemons that have sex with sleeping women.
Yeah, if we are silly enough to use christian mythology as an explaining guide for dark eldar units, then incubi are just succubi that had sex with men, and stored the semen to impregnate women. I think this somehow isn't perfectly compatible with the established lore. I dare anyone thinking otherwise to find any indication in the lore that all incubi used to be succubi, and how does the whole "have to kill another incubi to become an incubi" fits with this interpretation?
Even without the characters that's £15 off. Assuming each character is £20 that's £55 off buying everything at standard prices. With local retailer discount at 20% you're looking at £112 for something that would cost £200 if bought direct, that's not bad if you want the models. If they buff the rules for these things (some of the lower performing things in each force) then the box might go from near-worthless to must buy.
To be fair, not including the new models or the book, the rest comes in at £107.50.
Presuming it's another £30 book, and that the new models cost the same as the old, you're looking at a separate total of £217.50. Pretty big discount.... However, i agree. Based on the current rules for most of the models in the box, it's just not worth it for a current player to pick up the box imo. If you can split it 50/50, then maybe, but, even then, you're not likely to use the models outside of attempting to re-do the book "narrative missions".
If it turns out they make my scourges and Hellions useable AND give me them at a discount I'll be a very happy camper. If we don't see any rules updates for them then... I'll be a moderately content one. Some of my favourite models.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the falcon is a very good unit. 137 PTS for a flying tank with twelve wounds and basically a triple las cannon that can carry a small squad of infantry is great value. If you want a dedicated transport go for the serpent, it's damage output is pretty poor, it's more expensive but it's tougher and has double the capacity.
A single falcon out damages a fire prism for 20pts less. With the strat prisms shine but only in groups of three.
I do wonder if the people who write it off have ever tried actually using one.
Jacob29 wrote:Clearly the value is coming from the books in the set, just a shame the actual box value is so poor.
Kdash wrote:To be fair, not including the new models or the book, the rest comes in at £107.50.
Presuming it's another £30 book.
Ok to try and clear things up, the book that comes in the Blood of the Phoenix box is not the Psychic Awakening book. Its a 40 page campaign book like the ones that came in all the other double force boxes over the last year or so. Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising is a separate release. Nothing personal guys, you are just the most recent examples of people seeming to get them mixed up.
kingheff wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the falcon is a very good unit. 137 PTS for a flying tank with twelve wounds and basically a triple las cannon that can carry a small squad of infantry is great value. If you want a dedicated transport go for the serpent, it's damage output is pretty poor, it's more expensive but it's tougher and has double the capacity.
A single falcon out damages a fire prism for 20pts less. With the strat prisms shine but only in groups of three.
I do wonder if the people who write it off have ever tried actually using one.
It's problem is that it's main wep is Heavy. Wave Serpents can just run Assault Weps, move, drop full squad off. Easy peasy.
It doesn't help that Aspect Warriors suck atm so what unit of 6 are you going to carry in a Falcon?
Jacob29 wrote:Clearly the value is coming from the books in the set, just a shame the actual box value is so poor.
Ok to try and clear things up, the book that comes in the Blood of the Pheonix box is not the Psychic Awakening book. Its a 40 page campaign book like the ones that came in all the other double force boxes over the last year or so. Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising is a separate release. Nothing personal guys, you are just the most recent examples of people seeming to get them mixed up.
"you should be excited if you're an Aeldari Player! Yep, all the Aeldari races, Drukhari, Craftworlds and Ynnari. That's all of them! They all get rules! We can't possibly think of any other aeldari faction we could be forgetting...hm....I feel like there's been one doing comparatively extremely poorly in the competitive scene, with horrendous and boring rules for all their wargear, a terrible psychic power list, no special character models at all, and only a handful of units.
Nope! Must have been our imagination. anyway stay tuned for the rest of psychic awakening, where EverybodyTM will be getting rules and we definitely won't be forgetting about half the minor factions when convenient."
Forgive me for not being clear with the book costs and my total.
Due to the book and the box set being intrinsically linked, I took the (wrong) liberty of presuming one would purchase the two items together. Slightly skewed the numbers though.
As it stands, the contents of the box would be at least £187.50 when everything is brought individually. Boxset wise we’re probably looking at ~£67discount. Buying the 2 together is likely going to cost around £150.
So, whilst likely to still be a pointless buy for the majority of players, it still remains a pretty decent discount overall.
kingheff wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the falcon is a very good unit. 137 PTS for a flying tank with twelve wounds and basically a triple las cannon that can carry a small squad of infantry is great value. If you want a dedicated transport go for the serpent, it's damage output is pretty poor, it's more expensive but it's tougher and has double the capacity.
A single falcon out damages a fire prism for 20pts less. With the strat prisms shine but only in groups of three.
I do wonder if the people who write it off have ever tried actually using one.
It's problem is that it's main wep is Heavy. Wave Serpents can just run Assault Weps, move, drop full squad off. Easy peasy.
It doesn't help that Aspect Warriors suck atm so what unit of 6 are you going to carry in a Falcon?
When I get my third falcon I will try out three squads of six avengers with a dual wielding exarch all riding in falcons with star cannon and CTM for a total of 597 PTS. The falcons have decent all round fire power and the movement to get into position to take advantage of the CTM. They also keep my precious eldar alive and probably not target priority number one.
Is it tournament winning? No. Is it gak as so many seem to think? Also a no.
Drager wrote: Even without the characters that's £15 off. Assuming each character is £20 that's £55 off buying everything at standard prices.
Sorry but are we seriously pretending that £20 for a single character is even remotely reasonable?
Darkoath Warqueen is £20 and has been for a long while.
GW character prices seem to jump around between around £12 and £20. Part of the issue is that plastic mould are much more expensive than metal or finecast so that tends to push the prices of them up compared to troop boxes. A box of core infantry you might buy three times just for one full squad and several times over that for multiple squads and different weapon loadouts. A leader you might buy several times; but a hero most customers will buy just the once; perhaps twice if the first was painted poorly, but then you're often looking at quite a few years between the purchases.
I wonder how the box and book is linked.
The way I see it, the box is about Draz trying to kill Jain zar as a personal claim for fame.
But the actual campaign book is described as "The mightiest champions of the Asuryani, Drukhari and Ynnari will fight as one to prevent their ultimate doom."
Sound like the Blood of the phoenix is more like a prequel/intro to the actual campaign, and phoenix rising will se the eldar united?
New Obsessions for Kabals, Cults and Covens. They'll have to be really good to compete with existing ones (particularly for Cults and Covens), but the idea that the DE are getting nothing is flatly contradicted by the article.
My point is that both Craftwords and DE are getting subfaction rules. However, Craftwords then get both an extra psychic discipline *and* a whole table of powers for every one of their exarchs on top of that.
Whilst DE apparently get their subfaction traits and nothing else.
insaniak wrote: Wyches are not primarily female. The models are about half and half.
How can you tell? Boob-plate?
Either way, the Succubus (that are the Incubi equivalent) are all female.
Succubi are exclusively female although the background does state they are most commonly female. Also Incubi are a a dark aspect shrine, not a rank or status, so it makes no sense saying a succubus is an incubus equivalent.
Succubi are exclusively female although the background does state they are most commonly female.
What? Does the background say they are exclusively female or not? To my knowledge, it does.
Also Incubi are a a dark aspect shrine, not a rank or status, so it makes no sense saying a succubus is an incubus equivalent.
I always though Incubi was exactly a rank. I didn't realise that GW have stated anywhere in the lore that it's an actual aspect shrine? Where's this from?
How can you tell? We don't see their genitals and we don't even know what eldar genitals look like...
I can't think of many GW units which have mixed genders yet use identical bodies (i.e.: if wearing a helmet, the male and female versions would look the same). Various mixed Necromunda sets, Elves and Space Elves of different types, Warcry warbands, both armoured and unarmoured figures - those that are meant to be female will typically be different in the chest department at least, possibly also with a narrower waist, broader hips and/or narrower shoulders.
Drager wrote:With local retailer discount at 20% you're looking at £112 for something that would cost £200 if bought direct, that's not bad if you want the models.
You're comparing the bundle price at a discount with the price of separate items at full RRP? That seems.. skewed.
I imagine I'm one of the few people out there whose Eldar collection doesn't yet include any falcons or vypers, so those are welcome additions for me. For Dark Eldar, as well, the only models I'd be doubling up on would be scourges and the rest would all find a home in my collection.
My main issue really is that this is coming out too close to the Sisters release and as much as I like the contents of this box set I'd much rather hold out for November.
Kind of annoyed that they just did an unboxing video rather then rules leaks. I mean, we already know whats in the kit and what the finished models look like, why on earth would I care what the sprues look like, especially for all the kits that are already available lol?
Ive come to appreciate gw more after starting warmahordes, both pricing and models in themselves , but been quite a couple of bad sculpts lately from them IMO
Tyranid Horde wrote: None of the kits in this set are particularly bad, they're just not played because there are stellar units in each respective codex.
I'm quite happy to add a third falcon to my Eldar and my first Vyper to my army.
This box is probably an auto-buy for me.
Falcon is probably the worst unit in the Eldar book...so yes it is particularly bad :p Both models have been around since like 1996 or something so I wonder why its an auto-buy now. They really should have done jet bikes + wave serpent if they wanted to sell these... instead of 2 of the oldest units.
Jacob29 wrote: While including poop-kits that arent' selling is annoying.
The biggest grievance is the 5 man banshee squad.
Only option is ebay or buying two boxes.
Or swap with dark eldar player if you aren\t playing both. And if you are you are likely looking for 10 incubi's anyway so 2 will be in. Or would you want to pay some 30-40 more for 10 for both?
Jacob29 wrote: Interestingly.. what are the chances of the banshees not being monopose?
When was the last time we got a non monopose unit in a box set?
Pretty regularly- Tooth and Claw was one, as was Toll the Dead. So was Wrath and Rapture, though the new units were monopose. There are effectively two different types of boxed sets. The precursor box, like Shadow Spear and the new Sisters box, and the 'alternate Starter' box which are two forces themed around the latest 'campaign.'
Looking at the Banshee sprue, there are notably 7 swords for five models (the exarch can take a pair), alternate heads for everyone, a Triskele and a halberd, and 6 pistols. Definitely not monopose.
Tyranid Horde wrote: None of the kits in this set are particularly bad, they're just not played because there are stellar units in each respective codex.
I'm quite happy to add a third falcon to my Eldar and my first Vyper to my army.
This box is probably an auto-buy for me.
Falcon is probably the worst unit in the Eldar book...so yes it is particularly bad :p Both models have been around since like 1996 or something so I wonder why its an auto-buy now. They really should have done jet bikes + wave serpent if they wanted to sell these... instead of 2 of the oldest units.
Which sells without discount? Wave serpent or falcon? There's your answer.
They will sell these boxes this way without hurting their solo box sales. They don't put hottest cheese into the discount boxes. That's deliberate. Yet the boxes sell out. It's win-win for GW.
Tyranid Horde wrote: None of the kits in this set are particularly bad, they're just not played because there are stellar units in each respective codex.
I'm quite happy to add a third falcon to my Eldar and my first Vyper to my army.
This box is probably an auto-buy for me.
Falcon is probably the worst unit in the Eldar book...so yes it is particularly bad :p Both models have been around since like 1996 or something so I wonder why its an auto-buy now. They really should have done jet bikes + wave serpent if they wanted to sell these... instead of 2 of the oldest units.
Which sells without discount? Wave serpent or falcon? There's your answer.
They will sell these boxes this way without hurting their solo box sales. They don't put hottest cheese into the discount boxes. That's deliberate. Yet the boxes sell out. It's win-win for GW.
There is a difference between "hottest cheese" and utter garbage bin units. Lets not pretend anyone uses Falcons (in reasonable quantities) in narrative or matched play. You can make a fun and playable box by including units people might actually use more than once.
The fact that the latest news was just an unboxing (after they'd already showed us the box over the weekend) gives me 0 hope for Psychic Awakening having any rules worth a damn.
vipoid wrote: The fact that the latest news was just an unboxing (after they'd already showed us the box over the weekend) gives me 0 hope for Psychic Awakening having any rules worth a damn.
Dunno. We didn't get much advance notice about the rules for Shadowspear, but they turned out to be okay.
Honestly, anything they give Eldar is just going to make the army better. I'm more interested in other armies, especially Grey Knights.
kingheff wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the falcon is a very good unit. 137 PTS for a flying tank with twelve wounds and basically a triple las cannon that can carry a small squad of infantry is great value. If you want a dedicated transport go for the serpent, it's damage output is pretty poor, it's more expensive but it's tougher and has double the capacity.
A single falcon out damages a fire prism for 20pts less. With the strat prisms shine but only in groups of three.
I do wonder if the people who write it off have ever tried actually using one.
A single Falcon only out damages a Prism if the Prism moves. Shooting against a target with T8 the Prism wins without moving. Makes the box even worse.
Well, a falcon is way better than 5 banshees, and better than most aspect units.
Sure, I dont know the new exarch abilities, but I dont expect miracles.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: I can't think of many GW units which have mixed genders yet use identical bodies (i.e.: if wearing a helmet, the male and female versions would look the same).
Tau.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: possibly also with a narrower waist, broader hips and/or narrower shoulders.
techsoldaten wrote: Honestly, anything they give Eldar is just going to make the army better. I'm more interested in other armies, especially Grey Knights.
The silver lining for you should be that Custom Craftworlds are confimred, which almost assuredly will mean a revamp of the existing CWE traits. I.e. Alaitoc will get the Raven Guard treatment. No more -2 to hit Flyers without using stratagems
techsoldaten wrote: Honestly, anything they give Eldar is just going to make the army better. I'm more interested in other armies, especially Grey Knights.
The silver lining for you should be that Custom Craftworlds are confimred, which almost assuredly will mean a revamp of the existing CWE traits.
I.e. Alaitoc will get the Raven Guard treatment. No more -2 to hit Flyers without using stratagems
-
that combined with a points jump come CA will see off dem pointys ears showing up dem Speesh Marines, well till whatever the new Eldar hotness is takes hold
I'd like to see the "Ynnari double shooting/fighting" tax disappear from...ya know, Craftworld units which aren't being used with Ynnari. This soup style penalty/tax is fething obnoxious when you want to play your army, but are penalized because "well, you could buy this other book...and use this other stuff and combine it, so...it could be way better, so you should pay for that.".
Last I checked my six Dark Reapers are still an eye-watering 209 points for seven Toughness 3 wounds. Of course I'm also still paying 7 points for a four-shot lasgun on Swooping Hawks, etc...
Elbows wrote: I'd like to see the "Ynnari double shooting/fighting" tax disappear from...ya know, Craftworld units which aren't being used with Ynnari. This soup style penalty/tax is fething obnoxious when you want to play your army, but are penalized because "well, you could buy this other book...and use this other stuff and combine it, so...it could be way better, so you should pay for that.".
Last I checked my six Dark Reapers are still an eye-watering 209 points for seven Toughness 3 wounds. Of course I'm also still paying 7 points for a four-shot lasgun on Swooping Hawks, etc...
I mean, the Ynnari double attack tax should be removed from every unit, because Ynnari can't do that any more. It certainly feels like whoever set the price of the Ynnari HQs didn't get that memo though.
If you mean Yncarne, it is still capable due to teleport ability alone. It packs a better statline and more speed than Avatar, arguably better aura and ability for 2 psychic powers.
Whatever point drop it would get, it won't be terribly big.
If you mean Yncarne, it is still capable due to teleport ability alone. It packs a better statline and more speed than Avatar, arguably better aura and ability for 2 psychic powers.
Whatever point drop it would get, it won't be terribly big.
I think he means Shining Spears & Dark Reapers.
On the Spears I'd be happy for them to get an extra attack instead of a points increase.
Dark Reapers Are good but wouldn't say no to a 10% drop in points.
I wonder if all the PLs are going to get a new ability. What I wouldn't give for Maugan Ra to be able to target characters.
Also what I wouldn't give to have Drastanta be the Phoenix Lord that rises.
Also we are getting a whole new set of Psychic Powers. To me this represents the place for the biggest boost to CWE.
If you want a drop for Dark Reapers, then so should get say Wolf Fangs, who are also same points if they take ML. Which unit is better, how do you think?
Reapers were just horrendously underpriced on Codex release, and they are still in many tournament lists.
Spears are also still good, even though glasscannony. An extra attack would make this most damaging unit in the Codex even... more most damaging.
Spears is a really hard unit to balance I think due to combination of shooting, melee and speed. And ability to run in units of 9 fully buffed by every power at hand.
Hell if there is one unit I wish would get a point drop, it would be Warlocks.
Elbows wrote: I'd like to see the "Ynnari double shooting/fighting" tax disappear from...ya know, Craftworld units which aren't being used with Ynnari. This soup style penalty/tax is fething obnoxious when you want to play your army, but are penalized because "well, you could buy this other book...and use this other stuff and combine it, so...it could be way better, so you should pay for that.".
Last I checked my six Dark Reapers are still an eye-watering 209 points for seven Toughness 3 wounds. Of course I'm also still paying 7 points for a four-shot lasgun on Swooping Hawks, etc...
I mean, the Ynnari double attack tax should be removed from every unit, because Ynnari can't do that any more. It certainly feels like whoever set the price of the Ynnari HQs didn't get that memo though.
Yep, that's my issue. The rules changed, etc...but I'm still paying through the nose for a tax caused by an army I don't play, which is a gak way to try to balance things. Ynnari should have originally had their own points cost in their fake little mini-dex instead of arbitrarily penalizing people who don't use them, etc.
I doubt we'll see corrective points drops, but it'd be nice.
If you want a drop for Dark Reapers, then so should get say Wolf Fangs, who are also same points if they take ML. Which unit is better, how do you think?
Reapers were just horrendously underpriced on Codex release, and they are still in many tournament lists.
Spears and Reapers are not the norm for winning Tournament lists.
Saying that if X gets a points costs then so should Y is a pretty bad argument especially when Y is from one of the least competitive armies out there. To be fair I think Space Wolves need some love but that is a whole different topic.
Spears are good because they are quick, can be a great distraction and hit well. They also die rather easily, rely on Psychic Powers to be effective and got taxed due to Ynnari.
If you mean Yncarne, it is still capable due to teleport ability alone. It packs a better statline and more speed than Avatar, arguably better aura and ability for 2 psychic powers.
Whatever point drop it would get, it won't be terribly big.
I think he means Shining Spears & Dark Reapers.
No, I mean the Ynnari special characters. Yvraine and the Yncarne are fine but neither of them deserve to be the same points that they were when Soulburst caused double actions. I'm hoping for a slight tweak to them in either Phoenix Rising or Chapter Approved.
Visarch is not bad as a bullet sponge for Yvraine. I admit I expected more from someone who looks fancier than Phoenix Lord and is a fighting legend and stuff.
Burnage wrote: Yvraine and the Yncarne are fine but neither of them deserve to be the same points that they were when Soulburst caused double actions
Because Soulburst was overpowered as feth, with it they should have costed much, much more than they cost now, or then.
Interesting they went for a box set for the release, evidently this is more about the book. I wonder of this is the template for all the Psychic Awakening books- that would be a lot of box sets in quick succession..
The book sounds interesting- I hope that in the Blood Angels vs Nids they split the content evenly so its not just A bLood Angels story with the NIds in the background as the baddies..
Not a norm where, on what format, in what mission system? Why should that norm be applied to every unit at all?
ITC and ETC formats. Why should that matter? Because it is widely considered the goto tournament formats and the best for unit balancing. Yes there might be this one guy at the FLGS that does quite well with his spears but that is the Outlier
Current Meta for CWE is either Flyers or Mech (Wave Serpents, Night Spinner, Fire prisms) (Not Falcons)
Like, theoretically, let's say DR get buffed so mech/flyers are replaced by equal points of DR. (like before Ynnari nerf and when they were 27 ppm I think) How is that healthy for the game?
My only comment on reducing their cost was for a 10% reduction. So 34 down to 30-31pts.
To be fair even at 27pts I can't see people taking anymore then 1 squad + a Wave serpent to keep them alive.
They should get cheaper because T3 3+. They die to a stiff breeze unless you invest 140pts for a Wave serpent and 1CP per turn.
At 30pts and a new Psychic Power (Which could change the entire CWE Meta depending on what they are) that works like the SM power that prevents being targeted unless its the closest enemy model and I'd get them out again for competitive games.
You have an even worse case of meta fever though
Not sure what Meta fever is but when I'm off to a tourny I do look at what is the most likely armies I will be coming up against, what is doing well and what is the most efficient units I can take.
Curve balls are thrown when someone brings a list completely out of the blue and they do well which is great and I even enjoy losing to that army. Congrats to anyone that can do that.
BrianDavion wrote: so the price for blood of the pheonix is 230 bucks USD? LOL and people thought SHADOWSPEAR was too much
Usually, GW prices these things at a spot where I'll complain about the price, but still get it. But this is like the third or fourth product that they've released at an absurdly unreasonable price in the past few months - and I don't think I'm the only one who has thought so. Like, they've gone from "*grumble* *grumble* take my money" to "How dare you! Who do you think you are?!"
At this point, I think GW's core audience is people who work at GW, because the only people who would pay that are people with a 50% off employee discount (and even then, it's STILL too expensive!!).
BrianDavion wrote: so the price for blood of the pheonix is 230 bucks USD? LOL and people thought SHADOWSPEAR was too much
Where did this price info come from? It seems to be buried under tournament commentary. I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up as the Sisters box price, but not so much this little thing.
Just for the record, for the curious, current individual prices:
Vyper $35
Falcon $55
{latest character- spiritseer}- $30
{plastic aspect warriors- DA}- $35
Craftworld side- $155
Hellions- $30
Scourge- $30
Venom- $35
{latest character- spiritseer}- $30
{plastic aspect warriors- DA}- $35
Dark Eldar side- $165
Total retail price (assuming banshees, incubi and characters aren't even more ridiculously priced, which is unknown probably for six month)- $320.
Gotta say, if someone buys this just for the new models of one side, they're making a bad purchase.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Assuming those prices is mightily optimistic.
Eh. They're a starting point. I don't see the characters going to the Primaris Marine SC levels (currently $40), but yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the new units are $40 rather than $35. Much further and they start getting in the same ballpark as Wraithguard, and then people look at them funny.
Still. $230 (wherever that price came from), seems really gacky for a box that has one really good thing in it (the Venom). Unless the new stuff comes with major rules overhauls, Blood of the Phoenix might as well be called the Second Tier Eldar Gift Box, the present for people you don't really like.
Usually with GW boxes they feel like a value, becuase the price is close to the cost of one side, so everything else at least feels like a bonus. This is just.., blah.
$230 is an absolute laugh, considering there are four small units in that box that people actually want. If these were all new models, or it came with the hard cover book in the box or something it would still be more than most people are going to plunk down for a single box....but a handful of new models with two kits which are literally 20+ years old...and you want to ask $230? That's incredible.
Sadly it'll likely mean sales will not be huge, and GW will think "Huh, guess people won't want plastic Aspects..."
kingheff wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the falcon is a very good unit. 137 PTS for a flying tank with twelve wounds and basically a triple las cannon that can carry a small squad of infantry is great value. If you want a dedicated transport go for the serpent, it's damage output is pretty poor, it's more expensive but it's tougher and has double the capacity.
A single falcon out damages a fire prism for 20pts less. With the strat prisms shine but only in groups of three.
I do wonder if the people who write it off have ever tried actually using one.
A single Falcon only out damages a Prism if the Prism moves. Shooting against a target with T8 the Prism wins without moving. Makes the box even worse.
Against t7 3+ the falcon wins on average, on t8 3+ the prism wins on average, both assuming the prism double shoots.
Considering the falcon is cheaper, can carry a small squad and works best in a midfield role means it's a perfectly good vehicle that fulfills a different role. And it's certainly not the worst unit in the codex as some hyperbolic person said.
The Falcon is definitely underwhelming, but it's more of an issue that it doesn't serve much of a purpose in 8th.
-Penalty when it moves to shoot (can be undone partially with wargear but the tank does NOT need to be more expensive)
-Carries only enough models for characters or small Aspect Warrior squads (and they mostly suck ass right now)
-Being a transport *unless you're just hiding for a turn* the move and shoot penalty is an issue if you want to zip across the board to drop something off - the Wave Serpent is far better at actually moving things and laying down cannon fire.
-Nowhere near as tough as a Wave Serpent which is 7 points more when armed with all shuriken cannons (and carries twice as much)
-Doesn't match the range or fire versatility of the Fire Prism, this is compounded if you have two Fire Prisms since they benefit from the superb stratagem
-Is very outranged by the Fire Prism
-Capacity is too small to carry any Wraith units, which are one of the more useful units to move.
-Isn't a Transport so it doesn't have the versatility of something like a Razorback in army lists
-A Hornet from Forgeworld is about as killy, faster, harder to hit, and much cheaper.
Is it awful? Arguably so when compared to a lot of other things in the game. The problem is it simply doesn't do anything well. I have four modeled up that I could run as Falcons, but it's rare. Even with Ulthwe they don't last long at all.
BrianDavion wrote: so the price for blood of the pheonix is 230 bucks USD? LOL and people thought SHADOWSPEAR was too much
Usually, GW prices these things at a spot where I'll complain about the price, but still get it. But this is like the third or fourth product that they've released at an absurdly unreasonable price in the past few months - and I don't think I'm the only one who has thought so. Like, they've gone from "*grumble* *grumble* take my money" to "How dare you! Who do you think you are?!"
At this point, I think GW's core audience is people who work at GW, because the only people who would pay that are people with a 50% off employee discount (and even then, it's STILL too expensive!!).
Well inserting what box has in models and assuming 30$ per infantry box and 25$ per character came to 295$. Even if we assume GW gives 0 value for books etc that's 295$ models for 230$.
How big discount people are expecting GW to give? 22% off plus free books not enough? Say something about unreasonable expectations. Why not ask 90% discount then?
