Why does the Icon that grants Mark of Nurgle grant Fear, and the Icon that grants Mark of Slaneesh grant Feel No Pain? Nurgle is synonymous with Feel No Pain, which is useful. Whereas Fear is honestly quite useless with the average troop you are going to give the Icon to.
I8 deamon prince? What the hell? 5 attacka WS9, It looks it got buffed i never rememering it getting that many attacks and definatly not that high initialtive
Marthike wrote: I8 deamon prince? What the hell? 5 attacka WS9, It looks it got buffed i never rememering it getting that many attacks and definatly not that high initialtive
But he is only Ld 9... ya, I have no idea whats up with his unusually stats.
For now, only the Warpsmith interessed me for my Iron Warrior (every units are on rhinos). What piss me off is I cannot used anymore my dreadnoughts...
hellpato wrote: For now, only the Warpsmith interessed me for my Iron Warrior (every units are on rhinos). What piss me off is I cannot used anymore my dreadnoughts...
You can use your dreads. You just use the rules for the hellbrute.
hellpato wrote: For now, only the Warpsmith interessed me for my Iron Warrior (every units are on rhinos). What piss me off is I cannot used anymore my dreadnoughts...
They're called space marine allies. Incidentally, they will just be chaos marines selected from a loyalist marine codex
edit: I'm not actually aware of the alliance rules, so this may be bogus unless others choose to ignore the alliance tables
Yeah, it appears as if the helbrute is simply the new chaos dreadnought. Fine by me, really. All it is is a new name, and a much better (while still fluffy) Crazed rule.
On the Daemon Prince: I haven't actually seen the special rules for him, but he might still have EW under another special rule, a la Ghazzy or something, where the EW isn't specifically listed. I played about 15 games with him before I realized that lol.
hellpato wrote: For now, only the Warpsmith interessed me for my Iron Warrior (every units are on rhinos). What piss me off is I cannot used anymore my dreadnoughts...
They're called space marine allies. Incidentally, they will just be chaos marines selected from a loyalist marine codex
edit: I'm not actually aware of the alliance rules, so this may be bogus unless others choose to ignore the alliance tables
lol, that's funny. You were all snarky about it, like "They're called allies, dude.", but you don't even know the rules?
Just to clarify, you don't even really need to look it up because it SHOULD be obvious, but I just checked and sure enough, Loyalists don't like CSM much. At all, actually. So no, that won't work.
That said I don't see what the problem is anyway, you can still use your god-damned dreads. They're just "helbrutes" now, which judging from the one and only existing "helbrute" model, looks exactly like a mutated fething dread! And we've even had people confirm that the fluff says "some helbrutes are more mutated than others" so there's NO REASON AT ALL for you to not be able to use your old dreadnoughts. Is this seriously an issue just because of the name? Who cares, ignore the name, it's a Chaos dreadnought.
Go to post #325, there are 5 links to pictures. The original source is from Faeit, I believe.
Have to remember Nurgle can make him T6, so not all is lost. Also, I don't think it was here, but I read somewhere else that he may have access to Daemon Weapons...would be interesting if true.
So with my army being mostly khorne I have hardly any 'big guns' and was wndering, what would you guys take to fill this gap rather well, the dragon or the forgefiend with 2 hades autocannons? Does the fiend actually get 2 of em or is it just twin linked? What is this baleflame attack?
I am just having huge trouble picking which model to get, I am worried the dragon just wont bring enough fire power but then again I dont know if the fiend just has twin linked autocannons.
To be honest, I would be okay with the loss of EW in exchange for a nice boost to abnormal stats in addition to a lot of wargear. He can obviously become a big points sink if you go crazy with him, but could end up making a beast in the end. Sounds like something Phil would do.
I initially feared for my Chaos Daemons when they come out, but if they lose EW and get significant stat boosts...I'm fine with it.
unmercifulconker wrote: So with my army being mostly khorne I have hardly any 'big guns' and was wndering, what would you guys take to fill this gap rather well, the dragon or the forgefiend with 2 hades autocannons? Does the fiend actually get 2 of em or is it just twin linked? What is this baleflame attack?
I am just having huge trouble picking which model to get, I am worried the dragon just wont bring enough fire power but then again I dont know if the fiend just has twin linked autocannons.
Convert one of those giant mechanical machines that looks like a dinosaur into a giant Juggernaut, the main body isn't too different, and keep the massive Autocannons, maybe add some Bezerkers to ride on it's back or something like that.
Palindrome wrote: Dps have to pay for power armour now. A DP with a MoN and power armour is 180 points...
I think I will be using a lord.
It seems cheaper, maybe this will end up like the Warriors of Chaos daemon prince, lots of flash, but in the end a slightly boosted lord.
And I though Chaos daemons princes where expensive....
unmercifulconker wrote: So with my army being mostly khorne I have hardly any 'big guns' and was wndering, what would you guys take to fill this gap rather well, the dragon or the forgefiend with 2 hades autocannons? Does the fiend actually get 2 of em or is it just twin linked? What is this baleflame attack?
I am just having huge trouble picking which model to get, I am worried the dragon just wont bring enough fire power but then again I dont know if the fiend just has twin linked autocannons.
Convert one of those giant mechanical machines that looks like a dinosaur into a giant Juggernaut, the main body isn't too different, and keep the massive Autocannons, maybe add some Bezerkers to ride on it's back or something like that.
Palindrome wrote: Dps have to pay for power armour now. A DP with a MoN and power armour is 180 points...
I think I will be using a lord.
It seems cheaper, maybe this will end up like the Warriors of Chaos daemon prince, lots of flash, but in the end a slightly boosted lord.
And I though Chaos daemons princes where expensive....
That sounds badass, juggernaut head would be awesome but maybe a bit too small?
CleverAntics wrote: Have to remember Nurgle can make him T6, so not all is lost. Also, I don't think it was here, but I read somewhere else that he may have access to Daemon Weapons...would be interesting if true.
Actually the Mark of Nurgle just gives Daemon Princes Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful.
CleverAntics wrote: Have to remember Nurgle can make him T6, so not all is lost. Also, I don't think it was here, but I read somewhere else that he may have access to Daemon Weapons...would be interesting if true.
Actually the Mark of Nurgle just gives Daemon Princes Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful.
It's possible Daemon Princes have become, a terrible choice.
After reading this, it's become clear the codex is a allot of flash but no real game......
unmercifulconker wrote: So with my army being mostly khorne I have hardly any 'big guns' and was wndering, what would you guys take to fill this gap rather well, the dragon or the forgefiend with 2 hades autocannons? Does the fiend actually get 2 of em or is it just twin linked? What is this baleflame attack?
I am just having huge trouble picking which model to get, I am worried the dragon just wont bring enough fire power but then again I dont know if the fiend just has twin linked autocannons.
Convert one of those giant mechanical machines that looks like a dinosaur into a giant Juggernaut, the main body isn't too different, and keep the massive Autocannons, maybe add some Bezerkers to ride on it's back or something like that.
Palindrome wrote: Dps have to pay for power armour now. A DP with a MoN and power armour is 180 points...
I think I will be using a lord.
It seems cheaper, maybe this will end up like the Warriors of Chaos daemon prince, lots of flash, but in the end a slightly boosted lord.
And I though Chaos daemons princes where expensive....
That sounds badass, juggernaut head would be awesome but maybe a bit too small?
Bulk it up, add parts of it to the other heads, mainly the top part with the horn and use green stuff.
I have to laugh. A few hours ago the sky was falling, now people can't wait to start CSM. I will admit my biggest fear was the rules themselves, not whether the models are "ugly". (I didn't know non slannesh chaos was suppose to be pretty....)
I like what's in the book, and I've been waiting so damn long for something that isn't the Gavdex(there is no way possible Kelly could have made CSM worse than what Gav did) I will gladly pay 50 dollars for the book. I have several thousand points of Chaos marines accumulated over the past 5 years. It's not like I need anything outside the book. The Dragon looks pretty tzeentchian. Id have to see it's rules before I decide If I want it. The Daemons engines look nice. They may look like something from Power Rangers, but it's better than before. As for the cracks about these new models looking like toys. What do you think Warhammer is? Technically we are all playing with toys.
Things to note on the DP. His statline got a HUGE boost. he's now:
9(!!!) 5 6 5 4 8(!!!) 5 9
Probably gets DW (still looking for it). So he now hits everything on a 3, can potentially have a silly number of ap2 attacks LONG before anyone else can hit him, with the exception of a few things, and gained 3 wounds. He's an expensive flying beatstick. I love it. I'll pay 200+ points for a FMC that can wreck face.
CleverAntics wrote: Have to remember Nurgle can make him T6, so not all is lost. Also, I don't think it was here, but I read somewhere else that he may have access to Daemon Weapons...would be interesting if true.
Actually the Mark of Nurgle just gives Daemon Princes Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful.
You're thinking of the Daemon Prince Upgrade; the army list picture has an option for the Mark of Nurgle, among the three others.
Yikes some of the recent rumors are looking sorta dire for the power level and options!
I'm crossing my fingers! Poor csm look like they're getting the short end yet again. Depending on the cost for upgrades they may have gotten worse.
Sigmundr wrote: Things to note on the DP. His statline got a HUGE boost. he's now:
9(!!!) 5 6 5 4 8(!!!) 5 9
Probably gets DW (still looking for it). So he now hits everything on a 3, can potentially have a silly number of ap2 attacks LONG before anyone else can hit him, with the exception of a few things, and gained 3 wounds. He's an expensive flying beatstick. I love it. I'll pay 200+ points for a FMC that can wreck face.
He'll end up far more expensive than Greater Daemons by the time he's useful against the instant kill weapons of the game.
An allied Bloodthrister, Lord of Change, etc will end up taking his place.
Lucre wrote: Yikes some of the recent rumors are looking sorta dire for the power level and options!
I'm crossing my fingers! Poor csm look like they're getting the short end yet again. Depending on the cost for upgrades they may have gotten worse.
How? From the get-go the rumours were of a balanced competent book that was powerful but not Necron-broken, and the latest batch just got better, so how do they make the book look weak exactly?
I'm still taking my DP. At that point, to get a bloodthirster, you are buying more daemons, and the uncertantity of when that bloodthirster is arriving. Also take into account the flexibility you get in what role that DP is playing.
To be honest, the point hike simply made it so 2 lash princes with wings weren't the auto-take option. I didn't want a broken dex, I wanted a balanced one. It seems that's what we're getting, so I'm a happy gamer. Granted, it's based on seeing perhaps a grand total of 7 pages of the dex, but still =)
That thing about Boon of Chaos, would that count to squad leaders as well? Or can only IC's benefit/have to be killed in a challenge for the boon table to work
Hashulaman wrote:That thing about Boon of Chaos, would that count to squad leaders as well? Or can only IC's benefit/have to be killed in a challenge for the boon table to work
It says target Character doesn't it? So i'd assume it applies to Sergents and what not.
On top of these new stats, a DP can use a DW now......Wow okay. I honestly thought Daemon princes would at best stay the same, if not get nerfed or even removed from the Codex. Im curious is if you have Typhus or Ahriman turning into one for some reason. They loose their war gear and pyskik powers? What if a Generic lord rolls and gets it? Does he loose what he had already? Does he gain psykik powers?
So far we haven't seen the full details page for the Boon table, only the summary, so we don't have concrete information on the Dark Apotheosis process.
Daemon Princes took a big hit in usefulness. The average winged prince with a mark won't go for less than 210 points, which is approaching Land Raider cost.
He also has no natural armor save, is still only T5 and 4 wounds (weaker compared to other recent MCs), and not an Eternal warrior, so learn to fear Vindicator shells and IG artillery.
CleverAntics wrote: Have to remember Nurgle can make him T6, so not all is lost. Also, I don't think it was here, but I read somewhere else that he may have access to Daemon Weapons...would be interesting if true.
Actually the Mark of Nurgle just gives Daemon Princes Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful.
Wrong. Mark still apply their normal bonuses, in the case of Nurgle, giving a DP plus one toughness. In addition to this Daemon Prince have extra bonuses depending on their mark, which for Nurgle is Shrouded and S&P.
It is amazing to me how much misinformation is floating around in this thread, simply because people can't even be bothered to read the information available in it's entirety. People read half a sentence of rules and their knee jerks so hard they put their foot in their mouth.
Yeah, I'm probably just looking at all this in the wrong light, I'm just pretty disappointed by the CSM entry, but I'm probably just looking at it with the wrong idea in my head.
75 points for a Champion and 4 CSM with only bolters is interesting. 13 points for each model after that is sorta cool. I'm not sure they are going to really work as a better alternative for rapid fire range rushing troops. The LD really hurts that, but maybe the apostle or a lord could come into there.
I'm also pretty sure they don't get more than 2 special weapons per squad no matter how big they get. That's a sadness. Maybe there's still a way to turn them into a good big CC meatgrinder through characters and marks though.
I guess cultists and cult heavy infantry will have to pull some weight in the troops department because normal csm seem hard to sharpen into a really effective point in this environment. Maybe I'm missing something, my mind is still open. Demon princes are something I'm very dubious but curious about too!
punkow wrote: About the DP eternal warrior, stay calm guys... he has the Daemon special rules that gives him also eternal warrior iirc
no it does not. as the codex chaos space marine will follow the rule daemon from the rulebook it will only grant him a 5+ invulnerable save and fear.
the eternal warrior rule is only in the codex chaos daemons and as such only applies to them.
even though the DP will lose his 4+ while beeing a DP of tzeentch i think it will still be a nice unit to play with. my setup will be running at 255 points wich is pretty high i know but that guy got the potential to get stronger while fthe battle goes on. thanks to the psychic dicipline of tzeentch he is able to buff himself up with boon of mutation. granting him rolls on the gift chart. couple that with the character status and his ability to challenge and let him farm himself up to godhood.
i know this sounds easier than you can actually do it.. yes the DP got more expensive and cant take that much of a beating than before but as a daemons of chaos player who has to invest heavily in order to increase the potential of a DP i think i will be fine with my thousand sons aswell.
CleverAntics wrote: Have to remember Nurgle can make him T6, so not all is lost. Also, I don't think it was here, but I read somewhere else that he may have access to Daemon Weapons...would be interesting if true.
Actually the Mark of Nurgle just gives Daemon Princes Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful.
Wrong. Mark still apply their normal bonuses, in the case of Nurgle, giving a DP plus one toughness. [/i]In addition[/i] to this Daemon Prince have extra bonuses depending on their mark, which for Nurgle is Shrouded and S&P.
It is amazing to me how much misinformation is floating around in this thread, simply because people can't even be bothered to read the information available in it's entirety. People read half a sentence of rules and their knee jerks so hard they put their foot in their mouth.
I had reread it, and in fact, the Daemon Prince CANNOT take a Mark...very strange...he can only 'upgrade' to a Daemon of X God. I suppose the only way it is possible is through the Artefacts or what have you, if even at all.
CleverAntics wrote: Have to remember Nurgle can make him T6, so not all is lost. Also, I don't think it was here, but I read somewhere else that he may have access to Daemon Weapons...would be interesting if true.
Actually the Mark of Nurgle just gives Daemon Princes Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful.
Wrong. Mark still apply their normal bonuses, in the case of Nurgle, giving a DP plus one toughness. [/i]In addition[/i] to this Daemon Prince have extra bonuses depending on their mark, which for Nurgle is Shrouded and S&P.
It is amazing to me how much misinformation is floating around in this thread, simply because people can't even be bothered to read the information available in it's entirety. People read half a sentence of rules and their knee jerks so hard they put their foot in their mouth.
Oh the irony.
You'll notice that the Daemon Prince entry says: "must be upgraded to be a:". Whereas the Chaos Sorcerer entry says: "May take a Mark of Chaos from the Wargear list".
btw.. my guess is that the DP got LD 9 because of veteran of the old war. nowhere is stated that he got the bonus in his profile and most likely wont be in his own unit page.
Meh. DP takes the EW hit atm, but I believe we'll likely see a wargear item that grants EW. If that's so.. he becomes worth a lot of points once more, especially if you give him a powerful weapon... that's a stat line to rival a Tyrants easily enough, maybe with some upgrades go toe to toe with an Avatar and actually have odds, rather than just plain luck.
I felt a little sick when I saw the LD drop. It had been rumoured, but I still couldn't believe it. That was always one of the CSM's 'things', alas, if it cost's 1/2pts to get veterans of the long war per model.. it's alright.
Chaos Vehicles have all of a sudden become incredibly hardy, daemon, many HP's.. looking good.
Special Characters seem to be an overall 'meh'. They're strong, but they've been hit with striking last or unfulfilled potential compared to some of their loyalist counterparts (remember these are the new staple big bads - tyranids and c'tan step aside, so really for every drago, meph etc there should be a CSM character to equal them). This applies to all (inc Abby) save maybe Ahriman assuming he still has a forceweapon, although I am disappointed neither of them warranted a 3++, especially considering Abby might start attacking at I and WS 1.
Berserkers... wth actually happened there? LD8, 1 attack? *slaps forehead*.. talk about getting nerfed. I am happy with everything so far, its coming across as a way way better shake then we got last time but those berserker rules are the biggest disappointment i've seen for years.
Have we seen the page that outlines what a "daemon of x" entails? I don't recall that from the 4chan/warseer page, but I'm probably wrong.
*edit* Zerkers are now ALL about getting the charge. I believe the mark+icon combo gives them furious charge + rage, for +1 str, rerolling charge distance via fleet, and +2 attacks on said charge instead of 1. They also got counterattack and something else I believe. Kind of comes out in the wash, really.
Sigmundr wrote: Have we seen the page that outlines what a "daemon of x" entails? I don't recall that from the 4chan/warseer page, but I'm probably wrong.
yup here they are :
Demon of Khorne: Hatred (Demons of Slaanesh), Furious Charge
Demon of Slaanesh: Hatred (Demons of Khorne), Rending, Fleet of Foot, runs +3 inches
Demon of Nurgle: Hatred (Demons of Tzeentch), Slow and Purposefull, Shrouded
Demon of Tzeentch: Hatred (Demons of Nurgle), May Reroll all saves of 1
Thanks, souba. I thought I saw it somewhere. (Like the first page!)
There is a lot we aren't seeing. Their might be a line that states daemons of x benefit from the associated marks. That would be rather beastly, as the slaaneshi then gets FNP in addition to rending and fleet +3 on the run. Which means that probably isn't the case.
It's a give and take, really. The way a good codex should be written. Oct. 6 just can't come fast enough.
You'll notice that the Daemon Prince entry says: "must be upgraded to be a:". Whereas the Chaos Sorcerer entry says: "May take a Mark of Chaos from the Wargear list".
And we know the full rules for Daemon Princes, without seeing their entry? It is very likely that becoming a Daemon Prince of X, reads something like, "unit has the Mark of X, in addition to the following special rules for daemon princes". It would be unprecedented for units aligned with a god to not get similar base upgrades, more likely, since it is unique to Daemon Princes, it differs from a standard mark by applying the additional rules.
My general point about this, is that people are drawing conclusions on incomplete information, and people are having knee jerk reactions to it.
XT could you tell me how chosen operate? same as last codex? super expensive or moderate for what they do. And is it true that Abbadon makes them troops?
Yeah, that is off the Icon. I've been thinking they had fleet, but they have (IMO) just the more useful portion of that rule, which is the reroll on the charge distance. However, it seems like it is not "as per fleet" which means you're re-rolling all the dice, not being able to pick.
From what I've heard Abaddon does make Chosen Troops, not Terminators though. Havn't heard anything about Chosen.
I've not even laid eyes on the book in person, just repeating what I've read and seen since these new pictures came out.
EDIT: Yes the Khorne Icon is Furious Charge and reroll charge distance (the screen shot of this page of the codex is on the front page of this thread). :p
I wish more info *COUGH* pics *COUGH* would be taken of the chosen entry...I really desire to do an army of chosen if possible, even if I have to take Abaddon to make it happen!
Just want to point out that in the 3.5 armory eternal warrior was a glyph or rune (can't remember too lazy to find book) that you purchased. My guess would be it's back in and you can take it on Lords and DP's again.
Stop making irrational conclusions. Having the book in hand is the only way to be sure what got nerfed or buffed. Knowing Kelleys work, you are going to be able to do stupid amounts of things but all will have a cost and be upgrades from the armory.
In 3.5 my DP was 183 points T5 and didn't have EW. He only ever died once to insta death and that was because I was really tired and forgot to allocate his attacks against the librarian hidden in the termi squad.
Force weapons are not going to kill your DP. You challenge out the librarian and eat his face before he can do anything. And in the event your dice choose to hate you, the typical Libby will need 5s to hit, 5s to wound, you fail your 5+ inv save, then make his psychic test. Thats a lot of things that need to go right for the libby and wrong for the DP.
Your big fear from shooting will be railguns and demolisher cannons. In HTH, its Arjac and Lysander - both of whom are equal in points cost to the DP.
Stuff doesn't need EW to remain effective, competitive, or even desirable. Its my opinion that the worst thing you can do is not take something because of what might end up on the other side. Once you start doing that your not playing the game for fun.
Jayden63 wrote: In 3.5 my DP was 183 points T5 and didn't have EW. He only ever died once to insta death and that was because I was really tired and forgot to allocate his attacks against the librarian hidden in the termi squad.
Force weapons are not going to kill your DP. You challenge out the librarian and eat his face before he can do anything. And in the event your dice rebell, the typical Libby will need 5s to hit, 5s to wound, you fail your 5+ inv save, then make his psychic test.
Your big fear from shooting will be railguns and demolisher cannons. In HTH, its Arjac and Lysander - all of whom are equal in points cost to the DP.
Stuff doesn't need EW to remain effective, competitive, or even desirable. Its my opinion that the worst thing you can do is not take something because of what might end up on the other side. Once you start doing that your not playing the game for fun.
A 300 point model that can be instakilled isn't something I'd want to gamble on, especially when I can just take an allied thirster and be done with it. Cheaper and more effective. There are other CSMHQ options that are much lighter on points and still effective.
The thirster doesn't have quite the statline as the DP. Also, you gotta look at the cost of the other daemons you need to take to get said thirster.
Sure, the DP is no longer the auto take it used to be. But that's fine. No specific loadout should EVER be an "autotake if you want to win" (Say that in arnie's voice, it's funny). That smacks of a poorly balanced codex.
Mine is my typhus/lord conversion and a Sorcerer. A. Because those nurgle powers are BOSS, and B. becuase I got the forgeworld ones and they are going on the table damn it.
So anyone able to decipher the destroyer hive? Also Manreaper is BOSS, 2x strength now. Still goes last but I can live with that, especially with 4 wounds now.
Vladsimpaler wrote: The Armory is Back! So it's not the same name, but it's basically the same thing as far as I'm concerned
I noted that the Daemon Prince had options from both the Chaos Rewards and Artefacts section, but the wording says "the Daemon Prince has access to Chaos Rewards and Artefacts section of the wargear list. So I believe that Daemon Princes can take Daemon Weapons! woooo
The Aspiring Champion has a similar note, except that it's from the "Ranged or Close Combat section of the wargear list"
Vladsimpaler wrote: The Armory is Back! So it's not the same name, but it's basically the same thing as far as I'm concerned I noted that the Daemon Prince had options from both the Chaos Rewards and Artefacts section, but the wording says "the Daemon Prince has access to Chaos Rewards and Artefacts section of the wargear list. So I believe that Daemon Princes can take Daemon Weapons! woooo
The Aspiring Champion has a similar note, except that it's from the "Ranged or Close Combat section of the wargear list"
Urge to review... rising...
Yes....let the urge to review flow through you...
Also now I'm wondering...the Juggernaut of Khorne is a Chaos reward. So does this theoretically mean that I can have a Daemon Prince riding a Juggernaut?
Vladsimpaler wrote: The Armory is Back! So it's not the same name, but it's basically the same thing as far as I'm concerned
I noted that the Daemon Prince had options from both the Chaos Rewards and Artefacts section, but the wording says "the Daemon Prince has access to Chaos Rewards and Artefacts section of the wargear list. So I believe that Daemon Princes can take Daemon Weapons! woooo
The Aspiring Champion has a similar note, except that it's from the "Ranged or Close Combat section of the wargear list"
Urge to review... rising...
Yes....let the urge to review through you...
Also now I'm wondering...the Juggernaut of Khorne is a Chaos reward. So does this theoretically mean that I can have a Daemon Prince riding a Juggernaut?
That is awesome.
For extra awesomeness, let's hope he can take a blastmaster. Which looks like a guitar.
Jayden63 wrote: Your big fear from shooting will be railguns and demolisher cannons.
Just like the old days.
Personally I don't see the problem. No DP of mine has ever been immune to Instant Death, and it seems no future DP will either.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vladsimpaler wrote: Also now I'm wondering...the Juggernaut of Khorne is a Chaos reward. So does this theoretically mean that I can have a Daemon Prince riding a Juggernaut?
Now I have this mental image of a DP trying to ride a shetland pony, but his legs are longer than the pony's!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now I have this mental image of a DP trying to ride a shetland pony, but his legs are longer than the pony's!
I just spit my drink out.
*edit* I'm drawing a blank on the FMC rules. A swooping FMC has the "hard to hit" rule, correct? And he can still assault and whatnot while swooping? He would just be rolling 6's to hit guys on the ground with shooting or witchfire? If so, your only real worry is that deadeye tau railgunner
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now I have this mental image of a DP trying to ride a shetland pony, but his legs are longer than the pony's!
I just spit my drink out.
*edit* I'm drawing a blank on the FMC rules. A swooping FMC has the "hard to hit" rule, correct? And he can still assault and whatnot while swooping? He would just be rolling 6's to hit guys on the ground with shooting or witchfire? If so, your only real worry is that deadeye tau railgunner
He cannot assault. He does however have vector strike.
Sigmundr wrote: *edit* I'm drawing a blank on the FMC rules. A swooping FMC has the "hard to hit" rule, correct? And he can still assault and whatnot while swooping? He would just be rolling 6's to hit guys on the ground with shooting or witchfire? If so, your only real worry is that deadeye tau railgunner
You can't assault while swooping, you can only vector strike. He needs to swap to gliding at the start of the turn to be able to assault something.
Anyone else notice that the talon of horus isn't unwieldy(Sp) so abby has a power claw that he can use at standard initiative? or am I missing something?
-Loki- wrote:Daemon Prince with a Juggernaut under each foot, rollerskate style.
Okay the mental image for this is too much. I am going to make this and it's going to be so badass your head will explode. Oh and the rollerskate wheels will all be SKULLZZZ
Mantle wrote:Anyone else notice that the talon of horus isn't unwieldy(Sp) so abby has a power claw that he can use at standard initiative? or am I missing something?
It's AP3 so no Terminator bashing unfortunately, but everything else is going to go down in flames.
VermGho5t wrote: Has anyone heard or read the rules for vanilla csm troops?
These are the latest rumors that were posted.
Chaos Space Marine
70 for 5, 14 for each additional marine.
Aspiring Champion is a 10 point upgrade.
Come with bolter/bp/ccw For every 5 models in the squad you get a special weapon. If the squad is 10 or more, one model can exchange a flamer(5 pts) for a Heavy Bolter, meltagun(10 points) for an Autocannon or Missile Launcher or a plasmagun(15 points) for a Lascannon.
Marks range from 10-50 points, Icons range from 10-40 points.
That's not terrible, but the loss of 1 LD point wasn't worth only losing 1 point for a model. If Chaos Marines end up being 13 points I'd be a lot happier, or if it was 70 for Aspiring Champion+4 other Marines and then add 15 additional for 13 points per.
However, if Cultists are still 40 for the initial Champion+9 cultists, and then add 20 more for 3 points per cultist (as rumored), I seriously doubt that I'm even going to be using very many Chaos Marines at all!
Do you realise that loyalist marines are 16 points per dude and do not have CCW for an extra attack? 14 for a Chaos Marine is insanely cheap.
grey hunters are 15 points, have the CCW, have ATSSNF, and have coutner attack. totally worth the point
Sigmundr wrote: The thirster doesn't have quite the statline as the DP. Also, you gotta look at the cost of the other daemons you need to take to get said thirster.
Sure, the DP is no longer the auto take it used to be. But that's fine. No specific loadout should EVER be an "autotake if you want to win" (Say that in arnie's voice, it's funny). That smacks of a poorly balanced codex.
The thirster has a better stat line than the DP. He can instant death T4 models with his normal attacks. More toughness, more weapon skill. Ok so he is a little worse with a bolter. Dang.
As for the other demons, I already have a unit of flamers, screamers, and bloodletters painted up. If I really want to get frisky I can throw my useless Chaos Space Marine prince in as an allied heavy support!
Sigmundr wrote: The thirster doesn't have quite the statline as the DP. Also, you gotta look at the cost of the other daemons you need to take to get said thirster.
Sure, the DP is no longer the auto take it used to be. But that's fine. No specific loadout should EVER be an "autotake if you want to win" (Say that in arnie's voice, it's funny). That smacks of a poorly balanced codex.
The thirster has a better stat line than the DP. He can instant death T4 models with his normal attacks. More toughness, more weapon skill. Ok so he is a little worse with a bolter. Dang.
As for the other demons, I already have a unit of flamers, screamers, and bloodletters painted up. If I really want to get frisky I can throw my useless Chaos Space Marine prince in as an allied heavy support!
LOL dude calm down. Notice how once points costs and stats started being posted, people went from "this is gonna suck" to "dis sho am gud!". I'm not writing off Daemon Princes just yet.
The question about the DP riding a Jugger reminds me of the days in 3thEd where with the Chapter Approved updated wargear for DP's, you could actually have a DP of Khorne on a Jugger...
At the time a jugger offered a +1 S,W,T+2A so a S7 T6 W5 A7 Deamon Prince..., aah the fun and crazy days...
Slayer le boucher wrote:The question about the DP riding a Jugger reminds me of the days in 3thEd where with the Chapter Approved updated wargear for DP's, you could actually have a DP of Khorne on a Jugger...
At the time a jugger offered a +1 S,W,T+2A so a S7 T6 W5 A7 Deamon Prince..., aah the fun and crazy days...
Haha the Daemon Princes now would be just as a crazy! they'd be S6 T6 W5 A6, but they'd also have WS9 and I8. So pretty tough mofos.
Mantle wrote:ahh didn't realize it was AP3 or think of it as a lightning claw :S makes sense to me now haha
It's all good man, the text is really blocky so it's hard to read. And it's literally the best MEQ killing weapon in the game as far as I know, since you wound 97.2% of the time. (Str8 wounds T4 on a 2+, then reroll failed wounds from Shred!)
I'm now very excited to see what kind of crazy stuff Kharn and Lucius have; all the special characters shown so far have a lot of great abilities and wargear. This is truly a great time for Chaos players.
I'd love the silliness of a Prince on a jugger with a daemon weapon of khorne. Assuming it had that statline, it'd have the possibility for 19 attacks on the charge, at i8, at ap2, wounding Not MCs on a 2. I'd pay 300 points for that possibility. Not in any sort of competitve play, but I've always been a fluff player anyway.
Sigmundr wrote: I'd love the silliness of a Prince on a jugger with a daemon weapon of khorne. Assuming it had that statline, it'd have the possibility for 19 attacks on the charge, at i8, at ap2, wounding Not MCs on a 2. I'd pay 300 points for that possibility. Not in any sort of competitve play, but I've always been a fluff player anyway.
Haha, I'm the exact same way.
In preparation for this codex, today I consulted the original Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness book published back in the 80's and I rolled up a Daemon Prince character. Yep, rolled up. There was a whole section on how to make an "instant" daemon prince. And let me tell you, if by "instant" they meant "this is going to take 25 minutes of cross-referencing and rolling" then they were right! The amount of D100's and D1000's rolled was intense.
But now I have the entire background for my Daemon Prince (which appropriately has a Daemon Weapon fused to his arm!)
I really had high hopes for the 1k sons. On a side note, Is the heldrake going to be an auto include? At this point is it the only anti aircraft (with out allying) that csm can take? I'll take 2 please
Vladsimpaler wrote: But now I have the entire background for my Daemon Prince (which appropriately has a Daemon Weapon fused to his arm!)
That's weird. The DP who leads my army (former Ultramarine Captain Horatio Lethus) also has a weapon fused to his arm. The weapon is a Wailing Doom, but still.
Sigmundr wrote: I'd love the silliness of a Prince on a jugger with a daemon weapon of khorne. Assuming it had that statline, it'd have the possibility for 19 attacks on the charge, at i8, at ap2, wounding Not MCs on a 2. I'd pay 300 points for that possibility. Not in any sort of competitve play, but I've always been a fluff player anyway.
Heh, I don't know if my idea for a Flying DP riding on a palaquin of Nurgle is better or worse. 6 wound FMC with 6 bases attacks. Actually, in all seriousness, a fat old DP without wings riding a palaquin could be pretty awesome(and possibly a legal build).
Actual daemon weapons for DPs is awesome. I seriously can't wait. This codex may not end up being perfect, but it will no doubt be better than what we've had for the last 5 years.
Leth wrote: Mine is my typhus/lord conversion and a Sorcerer. A. Because those nurgle powers are BOSS, and B. becuase I got the forgeworld ones and they are going on the table damn it.
So anyone able to decipher the destroyer hive? Also Manreaper is BOSS, 2x strength now. Still goes last but I can live with that, especially with 4 wounds now.
If Typhus still has FNP and Terminator armour and Manreaper is a Force Weapon that just became unholy good.
If things remain the way they appear so far for Slaneesh,
Slaneesh Lord/Sorceror
Slaneesh Chosen
CSM with Slaneesh icon/mark for assault
Noise Marines for midfield support
Cultists for blob
Dirge Casters to prevent Overwatch
FW Flyer to substitute for dragon
Have there been any postings for Havocs yet? I'm wondering if they could be a viable AA alternative if they actually get Flakk Missiles. I haven't seen anything so far in the thread for them but 75 pages is just a bit to wade through over a bowl of cereal.
Ravanar wrote: Have there been any postings for Havocs yet? I'm wondering if they could be a viable AA alternative if they actually get Flakk Missiles. I haven't seen anything so far in the thread for them but 75 pages is just a bit to wade through over a bowl of cereal.
Read on BolS some of the things people saw looking at the book at GD-UK 2012. Apparently Havocs have gotten a points decress, and you are able to buy Flakk Missles as a upgrade for their Missle Launchers. This gives them Flakk inaddtion to their Frag/Krak rounds.
Havocs are the only ones in the book who can take Flakk Rounds in their missle launchers in the whole book.
I wish people would start complieing this stuffinstead of snippets posted across the internet.
Leth wrote: Mine is my typhus/lord conversion and a Sorcerer. A. Because those nurgle powers are BOSS, and B. becuase I got the forgeworld ones and they are going on the table damn it.
So anyone able to decipher the destroyer hive? Also Manreaper is BOSS, 2x strength now. Still goes last but I can live with that, especially with 4 wounds now.
If Typhus still has FNP and Terminator armour and Manreaper is a Force Weapon that just became unholy good.
Nor just a force weapon... A daemon force weapon... Rules for daemon- weapon, with the added bonus of being a force weapon aswell...
What's that? 2xS, AP2, strike last, with 5+d6 instakill attacks on the charge... With a bloke who's runoured to be T5, 4W and FnP with 2+, 5++ saves...
Ooh, saw those pics on /tg/ last night snapped em up while I could. Couldn't help but notice chaos seems to have thunderhammer's now. Having never played as loyalists I have no idea how good or not these things are without a storm shield, but would MoT termies with hammers work out well?
CSM are interesting. You can get the statline for 13 points. It's not as good (no CC weapon) but you have the options there that you didn't have before.
CSM are almost exactly as they were But now marks are cheaper on smaller squads and you don't have the option of not using the champ.
I like basic CSM, but they're not exactly Grey Hunters or Grey Knights in this book.
Agreed on the thunder hammers, I spotted that too. Now it seems my converted terminators might actually have some stats to go with the weapons they're carrying! Sweet.
Reanimator wrote: Agreed on the thunder hammers, I spotted that too. Now it seems my converted terminators might actually have some stats to go with the weapons they're carrying! Sweet.
Thunder Hammers are probably only for Helbrutes and not Chaos Terminators.
People are complaining about how the forgefiends and maulerfiends are armor 12's.. Well It also has " It Will Not Die," The Forgefiend can sit back quite far, it can take 3 plasma cannons and the Maulerfiend moves 12inch's a turn.. so you'll be able to hide it easier and jump out for an attack!
Lets not forget the warpsmith either, repair a hullpoint with him, and It Will not die! .... every turn if you roll well.
Although I'll admit with the marks and icons it sounds like a CSM Squad kitted out w/ TS marks would outdo a TS Squad just you have no sorcerer..
just noticed that the Warpsmith comes with fleshmetal by default, so a 2+ save and six attacks on the charge with his power axe (two attacks base, two from mechenandrites, one from weapon and pistol, one for charging). Even with what looks like WS4 that's a lot of hurt
plus the flamer/melta, the option to take items from the wargear list, and the vehicle repair/curse/destroy cover. I'm sold :O
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decoste007xt wrote: Not at all, 60pts, and I beleive he's mastery level 3 for 155 pts is the rumor.
Faeit212 had someone saying 25pts per extra level, so 135pts for mastery 3? I'll try to find a link.
decoste007xt wrote: People are complaining about how the forgefiends and maulerfiends are armor 12's.. Well It also has " It Will Not Die," The Forgefiend can sit back quite far, it can take 3 plasma cannons and the Maulerfiend moves 12inch's a turn.. so you'll be able to hide it easier and jump out for an attack!
Well the Ectoplasma cannons are only 24", so with those weapons it can't stay that much back. The Hades Autoannon are 36" though.
gak, I read on bols a while back that they gave furious charge and allowed your allied demons to teleport to the apostles icon. So now that that isnt an option, do you know by a long shot is there will be a way to give terminators furious charge? I really miss zerker termies.
Rumour has it that termies can take both marks and icons. And Icon of wrath gives furious charge. So you should be able to make termies with rage, couterattack, furious charge and the ability to reroll charge distance.
Budwaagh wrote: Rumour has it that termies can take both marks and icons. And Icon of wrath gives furious charge. So you should be able to make termies with rage, couterattack, furious charge and the ability to reroll charge distance.
Reanimator wrote: Agreed on the thunder hammers, I spotted that too. Now it seems my converted terminators might actually have some stats to go with the weapons they're carrying! Sweet.
Thunder Hammers are probably only for Helbrutes and not Chaos Terminators.
Well considering the Helbrute is a "Dreadnought" and its armed with a Power Fist as standard...
I doubt that VERY Much.
I'm looking forward to the Thunder Hammers for Termis and hopefully the Storm Shield you usually see with a Thunder Hammer
It's a little difficult to read from the picture posted, but from what I see under the Daemon Prince entry it says "May take items from the Chaos Rewards and/or Chaos Artifacts section of the wargear list."
Looking at the Chaos Rewards in the reference sheet lists items such as Stted of Slaanesh, Palaquin of Nurgle, Disc of Tzeentch, and Juggernaut of Khorne.
Does this mean we can take:
Daemon Prince on a Juggernaut? Giving him 6 toughness, 5 wounds, and 5 attacks?
Daemon Prince of a Disc of Tzeentch with Daemon of Nurgle upgrade? Giving him jink save with Shrouded?
Though I do wonder if you have to have the appropriate mark in order to take these rewards, and since the Daemon Prince can't get the marks it means he can take these items.
Has anyone had a chance to actually look at the book and know if you can or cannot do this?
Phil Kelly wrote this codex. No one should be worried about power level. He's had one codex that didn't just stomp the gaming scene and that Dark Eldar and the only reason they didn't I feel is that a lot of people didn't want to put in the time.
I'm loving the basic chaos marine entry as it's got incredible flexibility. I'm liking almost everything we're seeing. And I really love that for 170pts I can have a flyer that can do vector strikes on flyers and throw a st.6 ap3 flamer template at troops on the ground is just so good!
Well, they have counter attack as well. Now, I'm not a current Chaos player--so this comparison could be wrong;
Zerks then
4 attacks on the charge
3 attacks when charged
Furious when charging
Zerks now
4 attacks on the charge
3 attacks when charged (pending Ld 9 Skull Champ test)
Furious when charging + reroll charge distance (If you take a banner)
AgeOfEgos wrote: Well, they have counter attack as well. Now, I'm not a current Chaos player--so this comparison could be wrong;
Zerks then
4 attacks on the charge
3 attacks when charged
Furious when charging
Zerks now
4 attacks on the charge
3 attacks when charged (pending Ld 9 Skull Champ test)
Furious when charging + reroll charge distance (If you take a banner)
And...they got 2 pts cheaper per model (I think)?
The difference is that they're weaker in subsequent turns. Counter Attack only works when they get charged, and Rage only works when they charge. That second round of close combat isn't going to be as good for them.
Reanimator wrote: Agreed on the thunder hammers, I spotted that too. Now it seems my converted terminators might actually have some stats to go with the weapons they're carrying! Sweet.
Thunder Hammers are probably only for Helbrutes and not Chaos Terminators.
Well considering the Helbrute is a "Dreadnought" and its armed with a Power Fist as standard...
I doubt that VERY Much.
I'm looking forward to the Thunder Hammers for Termis and hopefully the Storm Shield you usually see with a Thunder Hammer
Well it was told by some one who had read the codex, that the Helbrute has the options to choose between, Powerfist, Power Scourge and Thunder Hammer. It isn't something I'm guessing. So my thoughts was that the Thunder Hammers will only be displayed on the Helbrute as there haven't been rumours about Thunder Hammers and Stormshields on Chaos Terminators.
The difference is that they're weaker in subsequent turns. Counter Attack only works when they get charged, and Rage only works when they charge. That second round of close combat isn't going to be as good for them.
Ahh yeah I'm with you there--but after the first round--say lose 3 Zerks--you're looking at 7 less attacks. I honestly think that's worth the 2 pts + rerolling charge distance (which is a pretty big deal in 6th from my games).
Bloodhorror wrote: There also haven't been any rumors that the Helbrute can take a Thunder Hammer either apart from this one.
All i'm saying is, its more likely for the Terminators to be able to take a Thunder Hammer rather than a Dreadnought.
But it's not a rumour. A guy read the codex and told what he read. I hope this is clear enough. If not, then get the White Dwarf, one of the small pictures of the Elites section of the codex is displayed, there you can barely make out the text: "May replace one Power Fist with one of the following:
Thunder Hammer, Power Scourge." Afterwards it states:"May replace one Power Fist with a Missile Launcher with Frag and Krak missiles."
AgeOfEgos wrote: Well, they have counter attack as well. Now, I'm not a current Chaos player--so this comparison could be wrong;
Zerks then 4 attacks on the charge 3 attacks when charged Furious when charging
Zerks now 4 attacks on the charge 3 attacks when charged (pending Ld 9 Skull Champ test) Furious when charging + reroll charge distance (If you take a banner)
And...they got 2 pts cheaper per model (I think)?
Khorne Berzerkers are even better now. Yes they lost 1 attack all the time, but they will act the same as the 4th edition ones on the turn that they charge/are charged.
For example: 4th edition Khorne Berzerker squad:
10x Berzerkers-225 Skull Champion upgrade
Now: 10x Berzerkers-180 you get the Skull Champion upgrade already, it starts out as Champion+4 Zerkers for 105
That's 45 points savings. If I had a choice between saving 45 points and having 1 attack all the time, I would take saving 45 points, because then I can get them a Rhino. It's 2 extra points per model to give them AP4 chainaxes which is a gamble, but there you go. I play against a lot of Marines so I will definitely be giving them the Veterans of the Long War upgrade, for that juicy reroll misses ability against Imperial Space Marines.
Bloodhorror wrote: There also haven't been any rumors that the Helbrute can take a Thunder Hammer either apart from this one.
All i'm saying is, its more likely for the Terminators to be able to take a Thunder Hammer rather than a Dreadnought.
The Old Chaos Dread came with one as an option and as of now the Chaos Dread has been removed from the GW website, I would say its either getting a new plastic box kit or moving to finecast. Im not saying termis may not get them. But so far it seems like Kelly hasnt given us access to much new equipment for older units. (From what I have read so far)
Bloodhorror wrote: There also haven't been any rumors that the Helbrute can take a Thunder Hammer either apart from this one.
All i'm saying is, its more likely for the Terminators to be able to take a Thunder Hammer rather than a Dreadnought.
But it's not a rumour. A guy read the codex and told what he read. I hope this is clear enough. If not, then get the White Dwarf, one of the small pictures of the Elites section of the codex is displayed, there you can barely make out the text: "May replace one Power Fist with one of the following:
Thunder Hammer, Power Scourge." Afterwards it states:"May replace one Power Fist with a Missile Launcher with Frag and Krak missiles."
Hmm well we can't see the rest of the Cultists entry with that hand blocking the way, but it appears that I am guessing there isn't much anyways beyond the ability to take a heavy stubber and a heavy flamer.
I was hoping Cultists would have gotten marks or even a mark-lite ability to differentiate themselves in worship to the different Gods so I can warrant building five different large blobs of Cultists.
Oh who am I kidding - I am still going to build five different large blobs of Cultists.
Bloodhorror wrote: There also haven't been any rumors that the Helbrute can take a Thunder Hammer either apart from this one.
All i'm saying is, its more likely for the Terminators to be able to take a Thunder Hammer rather than a Dreadnought.
But it's not a rumour. A guy read the codex and told what he read. I hope this is clear enough. If not, then get the White Dwarf, one of the small pictures of the Elites section of the codex is displayed, there you can barely make out the text: "May replace one Power Fist with one of the following:
Thunder Hammer, Power Scourge." Afterwards it states:"May replace one Power Fist with a Missile Launcher with Frag and Krak missiles."
Got a link to this picture?
Sorry no, I only have the magazine in front of me.
Hulksmash wrote: Phil Kelly wrote this codex. No one should be worried about power level. He's had one codex that didn't just stomp the gaming scene and that Dark Eldar and the only reason they didn't I feel is that a lot of people didn't want to put in the time.
This is the problem, just because Kelly will make chaos a balanced book does not mean all other books written will be. By being "balanced" we are already under powered compared to other books that are inherently over powered.
Kroothawk wrote: Some people are not satisfied until every single page of the Codex has a readable scan in this thread.
A download of a fully readable eBook would be preferable. If you would make sure that different readers are supported, it would be much appreciated
But, in all seriousness, I think it will be the future. If Codexes now go for GBP 30,-, more people will want to get a good idea of what it will be like online on forums like Dakka before they buy.
Wish I could talk to Phil K. about the whole "only half of your psychic powers may be Tzeentch if you have the Mark of Tzeentch" thing.
.......and maybe also the whole ML:1 aspiring sorcerer not being able to take Breath of Chaos thing.
I'm still more than happy. Don't really care about the Overwatch thing or not. We don't have Divination anyways, so we've been getting along just fine with the current codex in 6th to not need Overwatch.
The sky's not falling. Look at our cheap sorcerer HQ. Pewpewpew!
Hulksmash wrote: Phil Kelly wrote this codex. No one should be worried about power level. He's had one codex that didn't just stomp the gaming scene and that Dark Eldar and the only reason they didn't I feel is that a lot of people didn't want to put in the time.
This is the problem, just because Kelly will make chaos a balanced book does not mean all other books written will be. By being "balanced" we are already under powered compared to other books that are inherently over powered.
You apparently misunderstood me. Let me make it clearer:
4th Edition Eldar Skimmer Spam ugliness/Early 5th Edition Seer Council Shenanigans
4th Edition Tyranid MC list
Late 4th and all through 5th Edition Orks
Space Wolves
See, all 4 of those codexes were pretty dominant in their edition and one of them made it through 2 editions so far and is still pretty good in it's 3rd. Heck, Eldar are still competing in their 3rd edition.
In other words Kelly writes good codexes. The only one that people call "balanced" and consider not power is Dark Eldar. And in 5th that was mostly because people didn't understand the list and in 6th still don't.
So, once again, this book is gonna be fine. It'll probably take a month or two but expect it to be an insane book once you dive in.
Faeit Blog wrote:Abbadon 265pts. Chosen can be taken as troops. Can choose to either use Drach'nyen at +1S AP3 or Talon at x2S AP2 (both at full initiative). Gives preferred enemy space marines to every unit in 12"
So if this is true, why would anybody ever make use of Drach'nyen? The Talon gives you higher strength, lower AP, and is the same initiative..? I wonder if you have to roll for the daemon weapon if you're only using the Talon.
Faeit Blog wrote:Abbadon 265pts. Chosen can be taken as troops. Can choose to either use Drach'nyen at +1S AP3 or Talon at x2S AP2 (both at full initiative). Gives preferred enemy space marines to every unit in 12"
So if this is true, why would anybody ever make use of Drach'nyen? The Talon gives you higher strength, lower AP, and is the same initiative..? I wonder if you have to roll for the daemon weapon if you're only using the Talon.
I have the page, your APs are swapped. Claw is AP 3, sword is AP 2
Hulksmash wrote: Phil Kelly wrote this codex. No one should be worried about power level. He's had one codex that didn't just stomp the gaming scene and that Dark Eldar and the only reason they didn't I feel is that a lot of people didn't want to put in the time.
This is the problem, just because Kelly will make chaos a balanced book does not mean all other books written will be. By being "balanced" we are already under powered compared to other books that are inherently over powered.
You apparently misunderstood me. Let me make it clearer:
4th Edition Eldar Skimmer Spam ugliness/Early 5th Edition Seer Council Shenanigans
4th Edition Tyranid MC list
Late 4th and all through 5th Edition Orks
Space Wolves
See, all 4 of those codexes were pretty dominant in their edition and one of them made it through 2 editions so far and is still pretty good in it's 3rd. Heck, Eldar are still competing in their 3rd edition.
In other words Kelly writes good codexes. The only one that people call "balanced" and consider not power is Dark Eldar. And in 5th that was mostly because people didn't understand the list and in 6th still don't.
So, once again, this book is gonna be fine. It'll probably take a month or two but expect it to be an insane book once you dive in.
The problem is Space Wolves are only broken because of a few select units and 1 power. They really only have 1 realistic list which, coincidently, is all Dark Eldar are sporting with more than half their book being useless (and by useless I mean each option is such a distant second there's no reason to consider them in each FOC). He makes terrible rules, I'm sorry. I'm sure Chaos will be a fantastic book if you're looking for 1 or 2 competetive lists and a ton of subpar fluffy options with half the units having limited use because of FOC bloat or simply being awful. But hey, we can stick with the whole wait and see approach if you want, but that kind of defeats the purpose of a discussion board.
I have 4 armies I really focus on: Dark Eldar (incubi++), Dark Angels, Thousand Sons, and Iyanden. Nothing has really changed in 15 years for me to try and expand these armies.
The problem is Space Wolves are only broken because of a few select units and 1 power. They really only have 1 realistic list which, coincidently, is all Dark Eldar are sporting with more than half their book being useless (and by useless I mean each option is such a distant second there's no reason to consider them in each FOC). He makes terrible rules, I'm sorry.
I agree. But even worse than the rules is IMO that Kelly's rule so often go against the grain of what the army should feel like. Space Wolves became a gun-line-army led by Wizard-spam when it should by an army moving forward with aggressive cunning, led by glory-seeking martial heroes. Dark Eldar should be a thinking-mans army of dirty tricks and lighting-fast razor-strikes, instead it became 40Ks dumbest drown-your-opponent-in-dice-MSU-spam-fest.
Kelly IMO really struggles to translate fluff into rules. I hope Chaos will be the exception to his poor track-record. I would have vastly preferred him doing Dreadfleet expension or whatever and leaving 40K to other people.
If you think SW's have only one competitive build we're not going to agree because you're simply wrong.
I also disagree with the DE statement but hey, it's the internet and the internet says there is only one build and units are useless so don't use it!
I'm absolutely down with discussing but saying the sky is falling from digesting things in a vacuum is silly. Even though in a vacuum with some of the information out there it's obvious this is going to shape up solidly. Granted, that's my opinion and I've been wrong before
Nvs wrote: They really only have 1 realistic list which
For each metagame, each codex will produce one, and only one, optimal list. The only reason people think a codex can produce several different, equally powerful lists is because they do not understand how to evaluate the metagame and optimize their roster.
Nvs wrote: They really only have 1 realistic list which
For each metagame, each codex will produce one, and only one, optimal list. The only reason people think a codex can produce several different, equally powerful lists is because they do not understand how to evaluate the metagame and optimize their roster.
Or maybe people want to have fun and have an army set up the way that they would like to. My battlebuddy runs Black Templars and has been told several times, both here and in person, that he runs his list incorrectly. With a ridiculous win record, and three Ard Boyz titles, I think he's doing just fine.
The reason there are multiple units per FOC slot is so that people may play the way they want. Why does every list have to be for maximum viability or whatever crap means "your army list isn't right".
I, for one, am lookong forward to the new Chaos codex. The random factor will make it pretty cool.
Nvs wrote: They really only have 1 realistic list which
For each metagame, each codex will produce one, and only one, optimal list. The only reason people think a codex can produce several different, equally powerful lists is because they do not understand how to evaluate the metagame and optimize their roster.
Quite the opposite. As long as their is such a thing as a meta-game, no "one" list will ever be optimal. People will flock to list "A" because it is good. Once list "A" has a critical number of players, it is likely that list "B" will become popular because it offers a unique threat to the popular list "A". Once "B" then makes the round, people will experiment to find its counter "C" and eventually flock to it. Etc.,, etc..
It is the one crucial difference between an unchanging "meta-game-free" game like Chess (where "skill" is essentially a greater awareness of existing moves) and a "meta-game" game like 40K (where "skill" is essentially being slightly ahead of the rolling meta-game curve compared to the majority of the players).
Zweischneid wrote: Quite the opposite. As long as their is such a thing as a meta-game, no "one" list will ever be optimal. People will flock to list "A" because it is good. Once list "A" has a critical number of players, it is likely that list "B" will become popular because it offers a unique threat to the popular list "A". Once "B" then makes the round, people will experiment to find its counter "C" and eventually flock to it. Etc.,, etc..
That's fashion. I'm talking about the technical quality of an optimal list in relation to every other optimal list, which has nothing to do with how popular any of those are.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Or maybe people want to have fun and have an army set up the way that they would like to. My battlebuddy runs Black Templars and has been told several times, both here and in person, that he runs his list incorrectly. With a ridiculous win record, and three Ard Boyz titles, I think he's doing just fine.
So? Perhaps his list is closer to the metagame optimum than the conventional ones? Perhaps he's good enough to consistently put up good result with suboptimal lists? It really doesn't matter. There's no obligation to play the best list after all.
I'm guessing a mod will whip us with a picture of some poor dead SW chump in a moment.
That's fashion. I'm talking about the technical quality of an optimal list in relation to every other optimal list, which has nothing to do with how popular any of those are.
No. Because there is no "single" optimal list, because all lists are contingent on the "meta game". If nobody in your "meta-game" (assuming its a local one for simplicity) uses Melta-weapons, AV14 is highly optimal. Once more and more AV14 appear, people will load up on melta. Once people see lots of melta, they downgrade to AV11 and more long-range that negates the melta-advantage, etc.. .
There is no absolute "optimum" in 40K. The "global" metagame is more difficult to study perhaps, but it is also just "fashion" and "countering the fashion with the next fashion" to get to the top tables.
4th Edition Eldar Skimmer Spam ugliness/Early 5th Edition Seer Council Shenanigans
4th Edition Tyranid MC list
Late 4th and all through 5th Edition Orks
Space Wolves
See, all 4 of those codexes were pretty dominant in their edition and one of them made it through 2 editions so far and is still pretty good in it's 3rd. Heck, Eldar are still competing in their 3rd edition.
In other words Kelly writes good codexes. The only one that people call "balanced" and consider not power is Dark Eldar. And in 5th that was mostly because people didn't understand the list and in 6th still don't.
So, once again, this book is gonna be fine. It'll probably take a month or two but expect it to be an insane book once you dive in.
One power build and loads of chaff isn't my idea of a good codex. This one looks to be marginally better than the GavDex but even in the meager amount of scans we have so far there are obvious useless choices and subpar units, with Tzeentch seemingly being even worse off than before, Noise Marines being relegated strictly to static gunline duty, horrendously overpriced AV12 walkers, etc.
4th Edition Eldar Skimmer Spam ugliness/Early 5th Edition Seer Council Shenanigans
4th Edition Tyranid MC list
Late 4th and all through 5th Edition Orks
Space Wolves
See, all 4 of those codexes were pretty dominant in their edition and one of them made it through 2 editions so far and is still pretty good in it's 3rd. Heck, Eldar are still competing in their 3rd edition.
In other words Kelly writes good codexes. The only one that people call "balanced" and consider not power is Dark Eldar. And in 5th that was mostly because people didn't understand the list and in 6th still don't.
So, once again, this book is gonna be fine. It'll probably take a month or two but expect it to be an insane book once you dive in.
One power build and loads of chaff isn't my idea of a good codex. This one looks to be marginally better than the GavDex but even in the meager amount of scans we have so far there are obvious useless choices and subpar units, with Tzeentch seemingly being even worse off than before, Noise Marines being relegated strictly to static gunline duty, horrendously overpriced AV12 walkers, etc.
Right, but how does having some useless units make Chaos worse than anybody else? Last I looked almost every Codex or Army Book from GW had quite an amount of useless units.
Ok I thought the mauler fiend would suck do to grenades...primarily haywire until realizes the tentacles negate one attack per model in base....WHICH IS HUGELY BROKEN if true lol. SO if this is how it works you can't use grenades on those damn things.
12" move AND fleet for 125 base, assume 10pts for the tentacle.... WOW!
Right, but how does having some useless units make Chaos worse than anybody else? Last I looked almost every Codex or Army Book from GW had quite an amount of useless units.
Fair enough, but I think of all Codexes Chaos should be done to a higher standard because it has 9 and more armies crammed into one book. The BA or SW Codex have some bad units but you can still play a BA or SW army. When CSM have a bad unit, it shuts down a whole sub-faction. A terrible Thousand Sons unit doesn't just mean you pick another unit and move on, it means you can't play that legion at all without critically handicapping yourself.
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Red Corsair wrote: Ok I thought the mauler fiend would suck do to grenades...primarily haywire until realizes the tentacles negate one attack per model in base....WHICH IS HUGELY BROKEN if true lol. SO if this is how it works you can't use grenades on those damn things.
12" move AND fleet for 125 base, assume 10pts for the tentacle.... WOW!
If think you should know by now these things always come with the caveat "down to a minimum of 1"
Nvs wrote: They really only have 1 realistic list which
For each metagame, each codex will produce one, and only one, optimal list. The only reason people think a codex can produce several different, equally powerful lists is because they do not understand how to evaluate the metagame and optimize their roster.
Or maybe people want to have fun and have an army set up the way that they would like to. My battlebuddy runs Black Templars and has been told several times, both here and in person, that he runs his list incorrectly. With a ridiculous win record, and three Ard Boyz titles, I think he's doing just fine.
The reason there are multiple units per FOC slot is so that people may play the way they want. Why does every list have to be for maximum viability or whatever crap means "your army list isn't right".
I, for one, am lookong forward to the new Chaos codex. The random factor will make it pretty cool.
THIS, right here. I run what I run regardless of what's competitive and I enjoy a good bit of success. 5/6 at ATC in 2011, and got a semifinal slot at ard boys with a list that I've been criticized at every turn.
I'm also looking forward to the new codex, yeah basic chaos marines are no grey hunters but neither are basic Marines or Blood Angel Tacticals or Black Templar Initiates or even Dark Angel Tacticals. Fact is that Grey hunters are probably the most efficient troops for point cost amongst MEQs. Chaos is getting 13 point bolter/bolt pistol marines and for another 3 points each they can have +1 leadership, hatred (marines), and the extra CCW (or just don't take the bolter and bam you're still 14 point marines). So for the same points for a standard marine chaos get bolter bolt pistol and chainsword and hatred instead of ATSKNF. Granted I'd love ATSKNF but it doesn't make sense for chaos, they DO know fear, they've seen their gods and know how terrible they are.
Why does every codex has to be built better than every before, why do we have to clamor for more codex creep every time. It's a game not a sport, just cause your team isn't the best since the '91 cowboys doesn't mean you won't have fun playing, it doesn't mean you WON'T win all the time. I've seen eldar players go undefeated through 5th, I've seen GK and necron players get rocked by tau and deathwing. Codices are a crutch for mediocre players, simple answer, get better and go whup on people with a subpar codex and laugh
Hey solo, "Battlebuddy"? Ever spend any time at jackson, leonard, knox, benning or shank?
I am trying to read these pictures and so far I can only see that CSM are troops, are there any other troop choices? Can you take chosen or 1k sons as troops etc?
haroon wrote: I am trying to read these pictures and so far I can only see that CSM are troops, are there any other troop choices? Can you take chosen or 1k sons as troops etc?
cultists are troops.
Abaddon makes chosen troops.
HQ's with a mark make that cult troop.
haroon wrote: I am trying to read these pictures and so far I can only see that CSM are troops, are there any other troop choices? Can you take chosen or 1k sons as troops etc?
chosen if you take Abby, and tsons if you take a sorceror or lord with mark of tzneetch and so on. Cultists are a basic choice as well.
haroon wrote: I am trying to read these pictures and so far I can only see that CSM are troops, are there any other troop choices? Can you take chosen or 1k sons as troops etc?
chosen if you take Abby, and tsons if you take a sorceror or lord with mark of tzneetch and so on. Cultists are a basic choice as well.
Could you theoretically compose your troop section with six squads of Chosen marines, each with 5 special weapons and a champ, if you take Abby? If so, that's a lot of melta/plasma spam.
Right, but how does having some useless units make Chaos worse than anybody else? Last I looked almost every Codex or Army Book from GW had quite an amount of useless units.
Fair enough, but I think of all Codexes Chaos should be done to a higher standard because it has 9 and more armies crammed into one book. The BA or SW Codex have some bad units but you can still play a BA or SW army. When CSM have a bad unit, it shuts down a whole sub-faction. A terrible Thousand Sons unit doesn't just mean you pick another unit and move on, it means you can't play that legion at all without critically handicapping yourself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: Ok I thought the mauler fiend would suck do to grenades...primarily haywire until realizes the tentacles negate one attack per model in base....WHICH IS HUGELY BROKEN if true lol. SO if this is how it works you can't use grenades on those damn things.
12" move AND fleet for 125 base, assume 10pts for the tentacle.... WOW!
If think you should know by now these things always come with the caveat "down to a minimum of 1"
Umm.....see page one actually. According to that there is no caviet unless they ERRATA it later
Why does every codex has to be built better than every before, why do we have to clamor for more codex creep every time. It's a game not a sport, just cause your team isn't the best since the '91 cowboys doesn't mean you won't have fun playing, it doesn't mean you WON'T win all the time.
Every codex certainly should not be better than the last one, but they -should- aim for a similar feasibility and point/reward ratio. Suppose you have an amazing, flexible Heavy Support option for 140 points/unit in your dex. Then the next two books give popular armies stronger, even more flexible similar units for 110 points a pop. Did your guys change? No. Is your situation worse? Yes.
Likewise, getting new stuff that does not compare to what is already out there and established is a drain. You are paying more/getting less for your investment than someone else. In 5th this could be somewhat explained by army-specific flavor (GKs are amazing for what they pack, but they are really short-ranged!/IG has tons of big guns and orders and stuff, but they suck at CC!). In 6th, with allies, that has pretty much gone out the window and everyine but Nids can get almost everything.
This makes the issue worse, not better, because now people can just skip their sub-optimal choices and get the gravy if the matrix lets them: why pick boring Ultramarine tacticals when you can drag sweet Grey Hunters in (with a better psyker to boot!), Tau suck at CC but their TH/SS buddies certainly don't, and so on.
So far, Chaos seems fun but...oddly mismatched. Makes me wonder, as most GW books do, if it was playtested at all beyond a few sessions in the back room.
So I am thinking triple dragon triple mauler fiends lists. 915 pts is a steal for that.
Start that oval base sideways to cheat 2 extra inches on deployment, that plus 12" move and a turn one 3" average run gets you 29" up field. Turn two dragons arrive to burn and vector and the Mauler fiends have an average threat range of 21(thanks to fleet) inches ignoring terrain!!!!!!
Chaplain Pallantide wrote: I haven't seen much mentioned about Chosen marines? Are they any good in this incarnation of Codex Chaos Space Marine? Inquiring minds want to know!
I don't think much has changed fundamentally other then the extra attack but nerf to LD. They still have insane options per guy but are going to get expensive quick. Abby making them troops could be fun though.
4th Edition Eldar Skimmer Spam ugliness/Early 5th Edition Seer Council Shenanigans
4th Edition Tyranid MC list
Late 4th and all through 5th Edition Orks
Space Wolves
See, all 4 of those codexes were pretty dominant in their edition and one of them made it through 2 editions so far and is still pretty good in it's 3rd. Heck, Eldar are still competing in their 3rd edition.
In other words Kelly writes good codexes. The only one that people call "balanced" and consider not power is Dark Eldar. And in 5th that was mostly because people didn't understand the list and in 6th still don't.
So, once again, this book is gonna be fine. It'll probably take a month or two but expect it to be an insane book once you dive in.
One power build and loads of chaff isn't my idea of a good codex. This one looks to be marginally better than the GavDex but even in the meager amount of scans we have so far there are obvious useless choices and subpar units, with Tzeentch seemingly being even worse off than before, Noise Marines being relegated strictly to static gunline duty, horrendously overpriced AV12 walkers, etc.
Maybe this is just my opinion... GW doesn't design for power builds or optimized lists... they design things such that the average unit is average. They balance through mediocraty and its only for people power gaming that things seem imbalanced... That *gasp* playing the game outside of how the designer expects you to leads to things not playing the way they expect things to. The game is only balanced when no one is min-maxing. Thus I think its the players who break the game, not the designers.
I agree with the idea you can't really have more than one optimal list since the very notion of optimization is a bit of a singularity. What does changes is what you're optimized for, metagame changes and people re-adjust their optimization, but there remains only a single true optimization.
aka_mythos wrote: Maybe this is just my opinion... GW doesn't design for power builds or optimized lists... they design things such that the average unit is average. They balance through mediocraty and its only for people power gaming that things seem imbalanced... That *gasp* playing the game outside of how the designer expects you to leads to things not playing the way they expect things to. The game is only balanced when no one is min-maxing. Thus I think its the players who break the game, not the designers.
A good designer that playtests properly purposely breaks the system to find out what isn't balanced to the average so that EVERYTHING can balanced to the average, not so that only the one average thing is balanced to the average. If the system has "must haves" because it's not balanced and/or playtested properly, that's the designers failing to do their job properly.
If your game requires players to play how YOU want them to instead of how they want to, that's poor design. You may as well have predetermined army lists instead of an army book with options by that point.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Ugh... just noticed where some of those savings on troops came from... chaos marines no longer automatically come with close combat weapons...
Ja LD 7, bolter and bolt pistol. gotta pay 2 points for the extra CCW or give up the bolter and get it for free.
aka_mythos wrote: Maybe this is just my opinion... GW doesn't design for power builds or optimized lists... they design things such that the average unit is average. They balance through mediocraty and its only for people power gaming that things seem imbalanced... That *gasp* playing the game outside of how the designer expects you to leads to things not playing the way they expect things to. The game is only balanced when no one is min-maxing. Thus I think its the players who break the game, not the designers.
A good designer that playtests properly purposely breaks the system to find out what isn't balanced to the average so that EVERYTHING can balanced to the average, not so that only the one average thing is balanced to the average. If the system has "must haves" because it's not balanced and/or playtested properly, that's the designers failing to do their job properly.
GW has atleast on one occasion in the past that their playtesting is all done in house with the devs etc. Which is the WORST kind of playtesting ever.
Sigh, Havocs are the only ones with Flakk Missiles.
Havocs box only comes with one missile launcher
Chaos Marines Box does not come with any missile launchers
Devastator squad only comes with one missile launcher
Tac Squad only comes with one missile launcher
Rivet wrote: Sigh, Havocs are the only ones with Flakk Missiles.
Havocs box only comes with one missile launcher
Chaos Marines Box does not come with any missile launchers
Devastator squad only comes with one missile launcher
Tac Squad only comes with one missile launcher
Rivet wrote: Sigh, Havocs are the only ones with Flakk Missiles. Havocs box only comes with one missile launcher Chaos Marines Box does not come with any missile launchers Devastator squad only comes with one missile launcher Tac Squad only comes with one missile launcher
I only have two missile launchers right now :(
Suck.
www.thewarstore.com
Good thing I have six. $8.99 for a single missile launcher is horse gak. I suppose you could use the Cadian ones but they might look odd.
aka_mythos wrote: Maybe this is just my opinion... GW doesn't design for power builds or optimized lists... they design things such that the average unit is average. They balance through mediocraty and its only for people power gaming that things seem imbalanced... That *gasp* playing the game outside of how the designer expects you to leads to things not playing the way they expect things to. The game is only balanced when no one is min-maxing. Thus I think its the players who break the game, not the designers.
A good designer that playtests properly purposely breaks the system to find out what isn't balanced to the average so that EVERYTHING can balanced to the average, not so that only the one average thing is balanced to the average. If the system has "must haves" because it's not balanced and/or playtested properly, that's the designers failing to do their job properly.
If your game requires players to play how YOU want them to instead of how they want to, that's poor design. You may as well have predetermined army lists instead of an army book with options by that point.
That assumes that the type of balance is even achievable or desirable to an author who's emphasis is casual story driven game play. On a certain level I believe GW's mentality is that you should only use unit "X" when it fits a narrative, and if that unit is an uber-broken wipe the table clean killing machine the fact that the narrative is maintained is what's important. Or if a unit is just naturally outgunned and gets consistently whiped that's just how the narrative plays out. That's why balance doesn't matter as much to them... they aren't playing the game the same way.
Don't get me wrong, I think GW does a pretty poor job of play testing... What I'm talking about is that they're designing the game with a particular type of game play in mind thats more casual and where unit design isn't always about being practical or useful. I think a perfect example is several pages back when someone was complaining that Berzerkers axes are only AP4 and are thus only useful against light infantry hordes... but that's just like their fluff. In many instance some of the sub-optimal game designs are because they are also trying to reconcile fluff.
thenoobbomb wrote: This 'dex will be solid anyways, since it's written' by Phil 'Sidebeard'(from the WD) Kelly.
And people will not complain about it being OP.
13 point marines will definitely elicit some OP cries.
thenoobbomb wrote: This 'dex will be solid anyways, since it's written' by Phil 'Sidebeard'(from the WD) Kelly.
And people will not complain about it being OP.
13 point marines will definitely elicit some OP cries.
Not when they're only LD8, no ATSKNF & no longer have BP/CCW.
I'm just saying that I don't think people are realizing how ridiculous the basic Chaos Marine entry is yet. So many options for you to design units for what you need.
the whole "phil kelly writes balanced codices" thing is hilarious... his codices are abolutely the worst ones with a strikingly poor internal balance and things such as Grey Hunters and Long Fangs...
Zweischneid wrote: No. Because there is no "single" optimal list, because all lists are contingent on the "meta game".
I'm not sure how you managed to miss "for each metagame". It's right there at the beginning of my initial post. So what exactly are you trying to explain here that I didn't already say in those three words?
punkow wrote: the whole "phil kelly writes balanced codices" thing is hilarious... his codices are abolutely the worst ones with a strikingly poor internal balance and things such as Grey Hunters and Long Fangs...
Yeah, it's better when everything is equally busted/useless.
Zweischneid wrote: No. Because there is no "single" optimal list, because all lists are contingent on the "meta game".
I'm not sure how you managed to miss "for each metagame". It's right there at the beginning of my initial post. So what exactly are you trying to explain here that I didn't already say in those three words?
I think the difference is on emphasis.
"Each metagame" is fairly small (and ultimately irrelevant) unit to look at. Each metagame is in the end again a new meta-game each time you make a list. The very act of making a list and trying to find "the one optimal list" of "this particular metagame" is an indicator of the fact that the metagame is constantly changing (and thus constantly forcing people to find the next optimal list for tomorrow's metagame.
In this sense, you are right I guess. But the "skill" (i.e. the difficult part) lies not in writing the list that is optimal. The skill is in reading the metagame to know which "optimal list" you need to build.
Right, but how does having some useless units make Chaos worse than anybody else? Last I looked almost every Codex or Army Book from GW had quite an amount of useless units.
Fair enough, but I think of all Codexes Chaos should be done to a higher standard because it has 9 and more armies crammed into one book. The BA or SW Codex have some bad units but you can still play a BA or SW army. When CSM have a bad unit, it shuts down a whole sub-faction. A terrible Thousand Sons unit doesn't just mean you pick another unit and move on, it means you can't play that legion at all without critically handicapping yourself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: Ok I thought the mauler fiend would suck do to grenades...primarily haywire until realizes the tentacles negate one attack per model in base....WHICH IS HUGELY BROKEN if true lol. SO if this is how it works you can't use grenades on those damn things.
12" move AND fleet for 125 base, assume 10pts for the tentacle.... WOW!
If think you should know by now these things always come with the caveat "down to a minimum of 1"
See i thought that, but it doesn't say so... It just says that they attack with one less attack
Doesn't the first page of this thread break the dakka rules? New Chaos units look great mind. I like the new Daemon Machines and the Iron Warriors paint scheme in WD. Anyone know if Iron Warriors take lesser daemons often?
Probably been covered in the 79 other pages but was unable to get a good search of what I was looking for:
Do Daemon Princes benefit from the Mark of (God) and the Daemon of (chosen God) rules? As in, does a Tzeentch prince get 4++ and reroll saves of 1? Does a Nurgle Prince get 6T and shrouded and such?
Yea Typhus had mastery 2(from what I could see) every spell had to be from the nurgle list(O NO!!!!!). Manreaper was unwieldy, daemon weapon, and force. Hits at 2x strength.
I was able to see FNP listed in his special rules.
On the metagame front. Personally I think that 6th has made a generals skill with his army much more important than his army's optimization itself. If there is a type of army, or you have a particular playing style. then you are going to do better with an army tailored to that style, rather than an army tailored to the meta.
Pre-ordered my Chaos book, made sure to get it at a store open at midnight so I can grab it on friday. Really excited, everything I have seen so far looks great(rules and modelwise) and that is before we have seen the wargear section. We have seen no signs of possible synergies yet and I think that is where the codex will really shine. Same with necrons(outside of flyer spam) as it requires synergy to be truly effective.
Zweischneid wrote: But the "skill" (i.e. the difficult part) lies not in writing the list that is optimal. The skill is in reading the metagame to know which "optimal list" you need to build.
Exactly, that's why I think taking a balanced approach and learning to play it well will be much more succesful than constantly making large changes and having to re-learn against the same armies all the time.
I can see FnP fething everywhere. Seems to be the new thing these days. FnP in elites (PM), FnP in troops (Icon), FnP in HQ (DA)..... it's actually kind of annoying that the last few codexes have given secondary saves out like candy. I'll reserve my final judgement for when I see the actual book but it already seems like you can get that rule everywhere in this dex.
On the page with the full rules entry for the item in question.
summary (ˈsʌmərɪ)
— n , pl -maries
1. a brief account giving the main points of something
OK Blackfang, you made your point which was redundant in the first place as I said in my OP that IF it works as written on the reference page.....
You honestly have no merit to disprove it anyway, currently from what I see that is the rule. End of.
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lord_blackfang wrote: As always, there will be plenty of good options for people who don't care about fielding a themed force.
Depends on your view of theme. FnP is a theme to some folks.
Think im going to go with a chosen army but i am at a loss which mark to give them fnp and +1i or 1t and fear or rage furious charge and reroll on charge?
From the rumors you need Abby to make chosen troops. Also abby is supposed to give the warlord trait preferred enemy (space M) to units with 12" so I thought of a Max plasma gun chosen list sitting behind an aegis DL because against SM you reroll 1's to hit so you won't have to worry about gets hot as much(1/36 before AS). As far as icons I would take the fearless one as it fits the BL theme but Nurgle or Slannesh would synergize well.
favourite faction hmm khorne or nurgle tbh I want to use them as a combat makeup with abby I know your going to say assaulty armies arnt great anymore I know that quite well as I shoot them up with my sternguard all the time, this is why im thinking possibly nurgle for the 1t for that extra bit of survival and hopefully loyalists failing there ld test on fear. on the other hand khorne marks and icon thats 2 extra attacks on nice power mauls lightning claws etc with 1 extra strength reroll on charge and counter attack but is that to much of a glass cannon or possibly put abby at the front taking the flak on the overwatch and shooting?
Red Corsair wrote: I can see FnP fething everywhere. Seems to be the new thing these days. FnP in elites (PM), FnP in troops (Icon), FnP in HQ (DA)..... it's actually kind of annoying that the last few codexes have given secondary saves out like candy. I'll reserve my final judgement for when I see the actual book but it already seems like you can get that rule everywhere in this dex.
Makes me glad they bumbed it to 5+ instead of 4+. Worst was playing my friend with blood angels. Made hime take 30+ FNP rolls when it was 4+. He made all of them.
These rules are looking extremely good. It seems that Chaos Marines are going to continue their current trend of having some of the best Troops units in the game. 13 points base for an extremely customizable bolter marine is just plain awesome, and that's before we even know the prices for the potentially quite impressive Cultists...
Hulksmash wrote: I'm just saying that I don't think people are realizing how ridiculous the basic Chaos Marine entry is yet. So many options for you to design units for what you need.
Speaking in very general terms, it seems to me that if you start with good, well-priced core units with a bunch of options, and then surround them with a wide variety of units in other parts of the org chart (some of which are also very customizable)...that kinda has to add up to a pretty solid codex.
What I've seen so far reminds me a little bit of the Ork codex a little in terms of having a core-satellite type of construction approach.
randomguy8891 wrote: so forgefiends and maulfiends get 5+ invul save and soul gridner doesn't?
How long ago was the Daemons Codex written? How long ago was this Chaos Codex written?
Think about it.
how old is 6th edition rulebook and latest errata and FAQ updates? think about it
Did they faq the chosen, helbrute and cultists to match the new codex? They didn't and they won't bother with the soulgrinder until the new daemon codex gets released in a couple of month. Patience lil padawan!
randomguy8891 wrote: so forgefiends and maulfiends get 5+ invul save and soul gridner doesn't?
How long ago was the Daemons Codex written? How long ago was this Chaos Codex written?
Think about it.
how old is 6th edition rulebook and latest errata and FAQ updates? think about it
Did they faq the chosen, helbrute and cultists to match the new codex? They didn't and they won't bother with the soulgrinder until the new daemon codex gets released in a couple of month. Patience lil padawan!
they did faq the soul grinder and added only fear but no save to his special daemon rule, and did't change it even in 1.1 faq version, which took place after the white dwarf daemons update
Ahh yeah I'm with you there--but after the first round--say lose 3 Zerks--you're looking at 7 less attacks. I honestly think that's worth the 2 pts + rerolling charge distance (which is a pretty big deal in 6th from my games).
But don't they need the Icon for rerolling the charge?
Hmm the Chaos Space Marines riding a Juggernaut of Khorne become Cavalry, while my Bloodcrushers are "Infantry (as they are too slow to be treated as cavalry)"... GW, you freaking kidding me? Makes 0.000% sense...
Which would be faster, a Juggernaut carrying some ab-human space marine in heavy armour, or a Juggernaut carrying a single bloodletter? The daemon codex must be using prototype juggernauts or something...-.-
The codex does look kinda cool, even if not every option is equally good, which can be expected. I like the customizability in normal marines. I just hope Thousand Sons are a legit army in the new codex, as I was planning to start a new army (despite how ridiculously expensive TS have become with the new upgrade kit)
Hmm the Chaos Space Marines riding a Juggernaut of Khorne become Cavalry, while my Bloodcrushers are "Infantry (as they are too slow to be treated as cavalry)"... GW, you freaking kidding me? Makes 0.000% sense...
Which would be faster, a Juggernaut carrying some ab-human space marine in heavy armour, or a Juggernaut carrying a single bloodletter? The daemon codex must be using prototype juggernauts or something...-.-
The codex does look kinda cool, even if not every option is equally good, which can be expected. I like the customizability in normal marines. I just hope Thousand Sons are a legit army in the new codex, as I was planning to start a new army (despite how ridiculously expensive TS have become with the new upgrade kit)
So if i'm reading the sheet correctly...Icon of Excess(slannesh only) will now give noise marines(or space marines with slannesh) the Feal No Pain Rule? Its no longer Nurgle?
Hmm the Chaos Space Marines riding a Juggernaut of Khorne become Cavalry, while my Bloodcrushers are "Infantry (as they are too slow to be treated as cavalry)"... GW, you freaking kidding me? Makes 0.000% sense...
Which would be faster, a Juggernaut carrying some ab-human space marine in heavy armour, or a Juggernaut carrying a single bloodletter? The daemon codex must be using prototype juggernauts or something...-.-
The codex does look kinda cool, even if not every option is equally good, which can be expected. I like the customizability in normal marines. I just hope Thousand Sons are a legit army in the new codex, as I was planning to start a new army (despite how ridiculously expensive TS have become with the new upgrade kit)
So if i'm reading the sheet correctly...Icon of Excess(slannesh only) will now give noise marines(or space marines with slannesh) the Feal No Pain Rule? Its no longer Nurgle?
Plague marines still have FNP according to the leaked pages, no idea on noise marines getting it or not.
I suspect that the cult units will be able to buy an Icon of their mark that will grant them that ability.
thenoobbomb wrote: This 'dex will be solid anyways, since it's written' by Phil 'Sidebeard'(from the WD) Kelly.
And people will not complain about it being OP.
13 point marines will definitely elicit some OP cries.
Not when they're only LD8, no ATSKNF & no longer have BP/CCW.
~Vryce
They're LD9 as long as the Aspiring Champion is alive since they now come with him standard. And 13 point Marines are fantastic. It's not even so much that, it's just the potential with marks and upgrades. Oh hey there, 16 pt T5 3+ save infantry! Sure, I'd love you to grab that objective for me. Oh hey there, 15 point Boltpistol/CCW Marines with 4 attacks on the charge!
Then for an extremely minimal amount, you get Hatred (Marines) and +1 LD so that now the squad is LD10 as long as the Aspiring Champ is alive. C'mon, that's good and you know it.
The problem is Space Wolves are only broken because of a few select units and 1 power. They really only have 1 realistic list which, coincidently, is all Dark Eldar are sporting with more than half their book being useless (and by useless I mean each option is such a distant second there's no reason to consider them in each FOC). He makes terrible rules, I'm sorry.
I agree. But even worse than the rules is IMO that Kelly's rule so often go against the grain of what the army should feel like. Space Wolves became a gun-line-army led by Wizard-spam when it should by an army moving forward with aggressive cunning, led by glory-seeking martial heroes. Dark Eldar should be a thinking-mans army of dirty tricks and lighting-fast razor-strikes, instead it became 40Ks dumbest drown-your-opponent-in-dice-MSU-spam-fest.
Kelly IMO really struggles to translate fluff into rules. I hope Chaos will be the exception to his poor track-record. I would have vastly preferred him doing Dreadfleet expension or whatever and leaving 40K to other people.
Honestly from what it seems its not, everything seem over costed...no new characters, leadership drops across the board, units that are more expensive but arguably worse than they were (berserkers). Leadership drops, and watered down versions of things that the loyalist get that are alot better, Dark apostle (Chaplin) and Warp Smith (tech marine)...And I'm sure there is more.
thenoobbomb wrote: This 'dex will be solid anyways, since it's written' by Phil 'Sidebeard'(from the WD) Kelly.
And people will not complain about it being OP.
13 point marines will definitely elicit some OP cries.
Not when they're only LD8, no ATSKNF & no longer have BP/CCW.
~Vryce
They're LD9 as long as the Aspiring Champion is alive since they now come with him standard. And 13 point Marines are fantastic. It's not even so much that, it's just the potential with marks and upgrades. Oh hey there, 16 pt T5 3+ save infantry! Sure, I'd love you to grab that objective for me. Oh hey there, 15 point Boltpistol/CCW Marines with 4 attacks on the charge!
Then for an extremely minimal amount, you get Hatred (Marines) and +1 LD so that now the squad is LD10 as long as the Aspiring Champ is alive. C'mon, that's good and you know it.
Oh, I absolutely love it. I'm not complaining @ all, I was simply responding to DarknessEternal when he stated that many people will cry OP w/ our standard Chaos Marines. I'm actually very excited to see them & I may actually start using CSM instead of solely cult troops as I do now.
Especially seeing as to how TS took yet another foot to the groin...
Especially seeing as to how TS took yet another foot to the groin...
~Vryce
We've been taking a foot to the groin since third. Just give us back our 3 Heavy/Specials per squad we had in 2nd, GW. That would help show us that you care at least a little.
Especially seeing as to how TS took yet another foot to the groin...
~Vryce
We've been taking a foot to the groin since third. Just give us back our 3 Heavy/Specials per squad we had in 2nd, GW. That would help show us that you care at least a little.
Have the point costs been confirmed for Thousand Sons units? Because I'd honestly be surprised if they didn't have a big point drop, I know that both Noise Marines and Berzerkers went way down in cost.
Okay, I'm a little sick of the TS players complaining. Get that discussion into another topic or whatever, boys!
I see great things. Compare what we're getting to the current rules.
Next, compare the new codex Tzeentch stuff to what an Aspiring Sorcerer could do at 24" in the 3.5 codex and just smile. If you play Thousand Sons, you've probably seen two or three editions. Suck it up, keep being the underdog, and adapt and overcome. Failing that, be happy that you're probably the only TS player in your area and just smile when someone says "I love Tsons but I don't play them because of their rules"...... Again.
This is sparta. Oh and another thing.. I've said this elsewhere and not to be some sort of "martyr" or something, but if I can handle the Tsons rules then you can handle the rest of the codex. I promise. The sky is not falling.
Vladsimpaler wrote: They're LD9 as long as the Aspiring Champion is alive since they now come with him standard. And 13 point Marines are fantastic. It's not even so much that, it's just the potential with marks and upgrades. Oh hey there, 16 pt T5 3+ save infantry! Sure, I'd love you to grab that objective for me. Oh hey there, 15 point Boltpistol/CCW Marines with 4 attacks on the charge!
I'm not seeing the problem either. It's a shame that I won't have this book in time for my first 6th Ed game this weekend. But, as compensation I will be - for the first and last time - taking a Lash Prince/Plague Marine/Oblit army from the current 'Chaos' Codex as a sort of 'farewell' to that wretched book.
Brometheus wrote: Okay, I'm a little sick of the TS players complaining. Get that discussion into another topic or whatever, boys!
I see great things. Compare what we're getting to the current rules.
Next, compare the new codex Tzeentch stuff to what an Aspiring Sorcerer could do at 24" in the 3.5 codex and just smile. If you play Thousand Sons, you've probably seen two or three editions. Suck it up, keep being the underdog, and adapt and overcome. Failing that, be happy that you're probably the only TS player in your area and just smile when someone says "I love Tsons but I don't play them because of their rules"...... Again.
This is sparta. Oh and another thing.. I've said this elsewhere and not to be some sort of "martyr" or something, but if I can handle the Tsons rules then you can handle the rest of the codex. I promise. The sky is not falling.
Lets just repeat it all so it can just stop...
TS players: Our squads are the same price as before... Even though psykers bring more, they should be cheaper.
DG players: why can Slaanesh players get FnP and my terminators can't?
EC player: Our weapons are salvo and thus make us static... FnP and Int bonus are never enough.
WE players: Our axes are only AP4 killing light infantry swarms isn't good enough for elite anti-light infantry.
Everyone else: Our key defining unit, of our slight not generic armies are now made fully generic. To hell with everyone else!
If its a problem for you maybe it's time to build a "chaos army" instead of a narrowly defined niche of it.
Honestly from what it seems its not, everything seem over costed...no new characters, leadership drops across the board, units that are more expensive but arguably worse than they were (berserkers). Leadership drops, and watered down versions of things that the loyalist get that are alot better, Dark apostle (Chaplin) and Warp Smith (tech marine)...And I'm sure there is more.
How are things that are cheaper in points suddenly over costed? Sure they might seem over costed when you compair them to GKs and GH. But when you realize that a basic CSM is only 3 points more than a firewarrior. Damn, how do you think that makes the fish folk feel? The book doesn't need to top GK (infact I hope nothing ever comes close to the cheese fest that is GK ever again) all it needs to do is play well and be competitive. And I think it will do just that.
I also find it amuzing how there is a major complaint about how most armies just throw away the moral rules section of the book, but now we have an army where those things will matter and people are still complaining. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. So CSM is no longer fearless or LD10 with a reroll across the board. The core rules for regrouping have changed. They are still Init. 3-5 so depending on what attacked them sweeping isn't guaranteed. Its just the way it is.
Personally, I am really looking forward to the book. Even if it doesn't spike up in overall power levels it at least feels like its got some of its swaggar back in the form of customizability, flavor, and options. 100% welcome upgrade over the last book.
Brometheus wrote: Okay, I'm a little sick of the TS players complaining. Get that discussion into another topic or whatever, boys!
I see great things. Compare what we're getting to the current rules.
Next, compare the new codex Tzeentch stuff to what an Aspiring Sorcerer could do at 24" in the 3.5 codex and just smile. If you play Thousand Sons, you've probably seen two or three editions. Suck it up, keep being the underdog, and adapt and overcome. Failing that, be happy that you're probably the only TS player in your area and just smile when someone says "I love Tsons but I don't play them because of their rules"...... Again.
This is sparta. Oh and another thing.. I've said this elsewhere and not to be some sort of "martyr" or something, but if I can handle the Tsons rules then you can handle the rest of the codex. I promise. The sky is not falling.
Lets just repeat it all so it can just stop... TS players: Our squads are the same price as before... Even though psykers bring more, they should be cheaper. DG players: why can Slaanesh players get FnP and my terminators can't? EC player: Our weapons are salvo and thus make us static... FnP and Int bonus are never enough. WE players: Our axes are only AP4 killing light infantry swarms isn't good enough for elite anti-light infantry.
If its a problem for you maybe it's time to build a "chaos army" instead of a narrowly defined niche of it.
TS: Has the point cost been confirmed? That's the second time I've had to ask. In rumors before the book got leaked, Khorne Berzerkers were 19ppm, now they're 15ppm. So I'm still holding out some hope.
DG: I agree that this makes little sense fluff-wise, but gameplay wise you can't convince me that T5 Terminators with FNP would be balanced in the slightest
EC: I do agree that it's unfortunate about having to be static to gain the full benefit, but a unit of 10 can fire off 30 bolter shots that ignore cover! They will be the ultimate horde wrecker, I can't think of anything else that puts out that much damage.
WE: I play World Eaters and I love the changes to Khorne Berzerkers. They lose very little killing power but are way cheaper. Even with AP4 axes they're cheaper than their 4th edition incarnation, and Necrons, Orks, and Guard have to bite the pillow because Berzerkers always go in dry. Necrons especially get brutally wrecked by AP4 Berzerkers.
) Kelly.
