one is a blessing that affects the psyker. every friendly psyker manifesting a power within 18" of him grants him a additional warp charge
then the 18" WC 2 focused witchfire with S6 ap 2 and d6 shots which causes instant death on to wound roll of 6's and spawning a chaos spawn for you if it kills a model
and the thirs power is like of the black legion cabal but a bit better: WC3 malediction. you can immediatly fire with the enemy unit as if it is your own unit and it also counts as not having moved. after the shooting the affected unit has to do a pinning check.
That's a shame. Would have loved to have seen someone pull that off.
Yeah I was thinking just that every time you open one up there is two in side hanging out. can you imagine someone bringing 6 units of 20? what a fething god awful experience that would be.
That's a shame. Would have loved to have seen someone pull that off.
Yeah I was thinking just that every time you open one up there is two in side hanging out. can you imagine someone bringing 6 units of 20? what a fething god awful experience that would be.
The butt-hurt over the Primarchs is just anxiety; the setting has remained fairly static for decades; changes have come in the form of minor retcons, primarily.
That's fine, of course. And if that's how you like it, cool. The history is going to remain static for you. Rejoice!
However, GW is a games company and it primarily exists to release plastic figures and then rules to be able to use those figures in its games. As such, it needs to up its game constantly as regards to miniature design and production. The desirability of the miniatures depends on a number of things depending how you interact with the hobby; Do you buy the figures to paint, to model, to game? Are you fascinated by the fluff, whether historically or in terms of creating your own narratives, or even participating in unfolding narratives as part of an advancement of that fluff? Different strokes. But, it seems to me that not covering all of those bases just because one of the other ones might get butt-hurt over it would be a silly decision.
The Primarchs are this, in a nutshell.
Another few things: You might not have liked Age of Sigmar, or the process by which GW changed away from WFB to AoS. That's fine. I feel bad for you, bro. But your dislike does not mean that it was a failure. It appears to be doing very well out of. And the new models coming out look fantastic. Admittedly, I'm not a fantasy player. But the new AoS figures, as well as the new "Start Collecting" boxes are threatening to change that.
40k is not heading down a WFB-style End Times scenario where they'll be discontinuing or fundamentally changing the core game. AoS came about because of low sales. 40k is not experiencing low sales. Here's another thing:
40K IS ALREADY AN END TIMES SETTING. It's literally about as "end times" as it gets. The advancement of the fluff obviously brings the whole thing closer to some sort of ill-defined cataclysm (for humanity? The galaxy?), but the idea that the culmination of that unfolding narrative will result in anything like the massive discontinuations/recombination of armies like AoS is fearmongering nonsense of the highest order. Stop it. You look childish. It's a game. If anything, what has happened over the last year or so has actually added further diversity to the 40k universe. Thousand Sons, one of the most neglected aspects of the 40k Chaos legions/pantheon just got a full release and spun off into an army of their own right, just as their fans (like myself) have been begging for since.... well, the 1990s, really.
Again, GW are using this unfolding narrative to release models. Really great models (like the Glottkin and Nagash during the WFB End Times). That's all. You don't like Magnus? Fine, don't buy him. You don't like Robo-Guilliman (if the rumour is true)? Fine, don't buy him either.
Franarok wrote: Well, doesnt mention Daemonology, but that doesnt means they cant not use it. Daemonology rules says that every psi on the game can use it but GK.
If not, even with the new blue and smaller horrors split, will be a huge nerf to summoning strategy
because that rule from the BRB was to adjust 6th edition books.
every codex after the 7th edition rulebook has all psykers explicitly mentioning their access to daemonology.
Warzone Fenris 1: Curse of the Wulfen had no unit updates except new formations, armoury and psychic powers aswell as adding belakor and exhalted flamers. <-- no changes to existing units within the codex: chaos daemons
Warzone Fenris 2: Wrath of Magnus has updated rules for Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors, and their entrys do not mention any daemonology at all. Consider that in the same Book, Ahriman has updated rules aswell and in his entry Daemonology is written.
as such: Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors may not use Daemonology, since they got updated Rules. However, all other entries except horrors in the Daemon Codex still have access to them, since their rules have not been updated yet.
Well, but all those others are CG, and they will have it for sure, no nothing new haha
also is most a hit to csm that use demons as ally, since only can place one herald, so the unit of horrors to help summoning was a nice punch. Now i guess will be just a warp battery xDD
Also will be important if they use the change old powers or the new theench ones. If just use the classic change powers...meh, mostly works to give feel no pain to the enemy haha, better use their dice with heralds or sorcerer.
In any case, the summoning strategy is nerfed with this..... Guess if GW will nerf marine formation that providex free transports...guess no xDD
also is most a hit to csm that use demons as ally, since only can place one herald, so the unit of horrors to help summoning was a nice punch. Now i guess will be just a warp battery xDD
Why?
ally detachment is 1 Cg, but 1-4 heralds count as 1 cg Also you can use DAC for only 30 pints more (brimstone horores are core)
Also there are a new formation that you can use 3-9 heralds
also is most a hit to csm that use demons as ally, since only can place one herald, so the unit of horrors to help summoning was a nice punch. Now i guess will be just a warp battery xDD
Why?
ally detachment is 1 Cg, but 1-4 heralds count as 1 cg Also you can use DAC for only 30 pints more (brimstone horores are core)
Also there are a new formation that you can use 3-9 heralds
You can only take 4 in a single HQ slot in a primary detachment.
An allied detachment you'd be limited to 1 herald per slot.
If there are a formation with more heralds is a different thing
GoatboyBeta wrote: As daft/improbable/kick ass(take your pick ) as Hulkbuster Gulliman sounds. It would answer the questions of how you make a non demon primarch fresh out of stasis different from his 30k model and fit in the same size/price bracket as Magnus.
I think that the best way to bring back an imperial primarch would be to have, for example Russ, come wandering out of nothingness and be just a very tired old man after thousands and thousands of years of fighting. Have him worn down, without any of his legendary equipment and missing an arm. Still pretty impressive, all things told, but ultimately just a little tougher and meaner than a chapter master. Any 40k primarch should be diminished. They'd still be a huge deal for their successors and cause massive schisms in the Imperium by simply existing but nothing you could smack down on the tabletop and totally wreck things with.
Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.
Which version came out first and in what year? Which version has the most novels and books? Which version has the most factions to work with? Material alone, there is enough written about the 40k universe to fill half a library.
Fantasy was released back in 83, 40k was released in 87.
So fantasy came first.
Fantasy also has more books by far.
Define factions? are we talking space marines in general or splitting all chapters?
Either way, fantasy yet again.
Doesnt matter how you cut it, fantasy came before 40k and the sheer volume of material for it is amazing.
So no, 40k does not have more "lore" to it atall.
Also, keep in mind your saying 40k, so all heresy era stuff is out aswell since that would be 30k at present.
You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.
nintura wrote: You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.
Worth keeping mind # of BL books!=amount of fluff game has.
nintura wrote: You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.
Worth keeping mind # of BL books!=amount of fluff game has.
Then what would you go off of? Number of Codex? Supplements? Board games? Websites? Data?
Do we know what each formation requires now or just their names and some of their benefits?
I'll probably have two lists, one more fluffy including most of the new releases and some demons and then one list that's more competitive that's mostly demons. Although, I really don't feel like running a full on horror focused army even if that ends up being the most competitive!
Any word on if the Mark of Tzeentch or Generating Powers rules have been updated to no longer require at least one roll on your deities' table?
I think it has been confirmed that the Rubric Marines dataslate just has the Tzeentch discipline on it for the Aspiring Sorcerer to generate on but I don't know do they have updated rules for the detachment or if it all falls back to the rules in Codex CSM.
Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.
Dante is the oldest loyalist marine at a bit over 1100.
In any case, the stupidest way to bring back Primarchs would be to just have them appear and be just like during HH like nothing had happened. If one wants that why not just play HH?
GoatboyBeta wrote: As daft/improbable/kick ass(take your pick ) as Hulkbuster Gulliman sounds. It would answer the questions of how you make a non demon primarch fresh out of stasis different from his 30k model and fit in the same size/price bracket as Magnus.
I think that the best way to bring back an imperial primarch would be to have, for example Russ, come wandering out of nothingness and be just a very tired old man after thousands and thousands of years of fighting. Have him worn down, without any of his legendary equipment and missing an arm. Still pretty impressive, all things told, but ultimately just a little tougher and meaner than a chapter master. Any 40k primarch should be diminished. They'd still be a huge deal for their successors and cause massive schisms in the Imperium by simply existing but nothing you could smack down on the tabletop and totally wreck things with.
Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.
Which version came out first and in what year? Which version has the most novels and books? Which version has the most factions to work with? Material alone, there is enough written about the 40k universe to fill half a library.
Fantasy was released back in 83, 40k was released in 87.
So fantasy came first.
Fantasy also has more books by far.
Define factions? are we talking space marines in general or splitting all chapters?
Either way, fantasy yet again.
Doesnt matter how you cut it, fantasy came before 40k and the sheer volume of material for it is amazing.
So no, 40k does not have more "lore" to it atall.
Also, keep in mind your saying 40k, so all heresy era stuff is out aswell since that would be 30k at present.
You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.
To put the fantasy 40k comparison to bed. There have been about 270 fantasy books including anthologies but not AOS or short stories. There have been more than 300 40k books following the same rules but not including the Horus heresy. Fantasy is older but in recent years there have been twice as many 40k books as fantasy books coming out. Even if we look at the last year, there were more books in the beats arises series than the main AOS series.
Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.
Dante is the oldest loyalist marine at a bit over 1100.
In any case, the stupidest way to bring back Primarchs would be to just have them appear and be just like during HH like nothing had happened. If one wants that why not just play HH?
They want to fight against Tau, Nids, Necrons etc?
ERJAK wrote: Feth the current theme. It's BORING. Literally no action anyone in all the galaxy takes matters because NOTHING HAPPENS. So to correct that, they move the story forward, a snails pace to be sure, milk it for another 20 years; big universe after all. But here's the thing, the good guys are hopelessly outmatched. 6 Demon Primarchs, just as many named, powerful characters as in the whole of the imperium, and an endless legion of greater demons and former legionaires to pull even bigger bads out of. The outcome would be hilariously foregone, even to a casual reader. Why then, get invested? Why, if you've never followed the fluff before, bother trying to catch up when at the end of the day all you're doing is watching the dirt settle on the grave of the imperium. So you need heroes, big names, names that would cause as many problems as they would offer solutions but little tiny glimmers of possibility. Watching a decrepit broken down imperium finally fall would ultimately lack meaning, even for Chaos. Seeing an Imperium topple as it's greatest heroes fail, as it's final opportunity to save itself, to bring itself back from the edge, is squandered, that would be a compelling story.
Hopeless or not is up for players to fight out on the tabletop...That was always the idea in 40k. Setting for players to fight out the story. GW wasn't supposed to provide the story as that's just limiting players own imagination and stories. But guess some people need to be hand fed stories rather than do their own.
And for not mattering...AOS is prime example of not mattering when GW has designed whole new setting so that it's 100% irrelevant what happens. So yeah good job from GW. In 40k at least it's possible for one side to lose. In AOS nobody CAN lose.
So name calling and shaming when someone has a differing opinion than you eh?
GoatboyBeta wrote: As daft/improbable/kick ass(take your pick ) as Hulkbuster Gulliman sounds. It would answer the questions of how you make a non demon primarch fresh out of stasis different from his 30k model and fit in the same size/price bracket as Magnus.
I think that the best way to bring back an imperial primarch would be to have, for example Russ, come wandering out of nothingness and be just a very tired old man after thousands and thousands of years of fighting. Have him worn down, without any of his legendary equipment and missing an arm. Still pretty impressive, all things told, but ultimately just a little tougher and meaner than a chapter master. Any 40k primarch should be diminished. They'd still be a huge deal for their successors and cause massive schisms in the Imperium by simply existing but nothing you could smack down on the tabletop and totally wreck things with.
Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.
Because it flips the expectations of the returning primarch being glorious and awesome on their head. Regular space marines don't reach 10 000 without major life-extending technology like being put into a dreadnought pod and hibernating most of the time or without being actively sustained by the chaos gods and entering timeless space. It's fully appropriate for a primarch to age, particularly when it's to emphasise the themes of change and outright decline between the era of primarchs and contemporary 40K.
Franarok wrote: Well, doesnt mention Daemonology, but that doesnt means they cant not use it. Daemonology rules says that every psi on the game can use it but GK.
If not, even with the new blue and smaller horrors split, will be a huge nerf to summoning strategy
because that rule from the BRB was to adjust 6th edition books. every codex after the 7th edition rulebook has all psykers explicitly mentioning their access to daemonology.
Warzone Fenris 1: Curse of the Wulfen had no unit updates except new formations, armoury and psychic powers aswell as adding belakor and exhalted flamers. <-- no changes to existing units within the codex: chaos daemons Warzone Fenris 2: Wrath of Magnus has updated rules for Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors, and their entrys do not mention any daemonology at all. Consider that in the same Book, Ahriman has updated rules aswell and in his entry Daemonology is written.
as such: Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors may not use Daemonology, since they got updated Rules. However, all other entries except horrors in the Daemon Codex still have access to them, since their rules have not been updated yet.
The current codex entry for Pink Horrors does not say they have access to Daemonology, and yet it is accepted that they can use it even without an FAQ, so why would an updated entry's lack of Daemonology be any different? The BRB gives specific access to all psykers with few exceptions (no Malefic for GKs or Sanctic for Daemons, or at all for Nids).
Unless the new entries SPECIFICALLY say the Horrors (of any type) cannot access Malefic daemonology, they can use it. PERIOD Or if it says they can ONLY access the Change Discipline, which we now know neither the Blue or Brimstone horrors entries are listed as such, so why would the Pinks entry be different?
Another possibility is if the Pink Horrors entry has access to Daemonology and Change (we haven't seen their entry yet, only the Blues & Brimstones) That would make sense as otherwise, why ever buy Pinkies over Blues?
So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.
nintura wrote: So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.
What? Any galactic conquering was done during the Great Crusade era. I'm obviously talking about the myths about Russ or Khan being lost in the warp somewhere, forever fighting whatever it is they're fighting.
nintura wrote: So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.
What? Any galactic conquering was done during the Great Crusade era. I'm obviously talking about the myths about Russ or Khan being lost in the warp somewhere, forever fighting whatever it is they're fighting.
Right. You were talking about them coming back as old men after thousands of years. But we have evidence that regular space marines can live that long (CSM's have been fighting for 10k, and I'm not talking about time dilation or anything that crazy). The Primarchs themselves had to have been fighting for thousands of years during the Crusade era. Unless they were nearing old age at the end of the heresy, I couldn't see them as old and shriveled marines. Certainly not Vulkan, but he's his own special case.
nintura wrote: So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.
I will assume that you din't read any of the HH fluff or books, since its explained in them that the Great Crusade lasted 200-300years iirc( someone can confirm this if they want).
Also the fluff established a long time ago that the Primarchs lifespan was in the 500-600-ish years, that all those that survived the heresy, simply died out of extreme age( bare for those who mysterously dissapeared and are Prophetised to come back at the end of times, yeah convinient i know)
The Dante's case is a particular one, since no one knows how the heck he's alive, either someone else in the Chapter takes up his armor and mask and then the name Dante is a Legacy passed on, or ...well since BA are kinda Space Vampires with all their blood exchange/infusion, he has acces to a life extending technology.
Its said in the fluff that the Great Crusade expansion was really really fast, with entiere Legions of Millions of Space Marines, and countless NAvy and IG devided into expeditionary groups and scattered all over the galaxy, it took them decades to reach the outskirts of the galaxy and a century to consildate their Power over the Galaxy.
At the time the Warp wasn't has brutal as it is now, it was still dangerous, but its really towards the end of the Great Crusade and at the start of the HH that SM had their first conflicts with Daemons, prior to that, they Though Daemons where simply another Xeno race that lived in the Warp.
When you factor all this, yeah, they conquered at an incredible pace the galaxy, and it din't take them a millenia.
Slayer le boucher wrote: 6th Ed CSM codex doesn't have Deamonology in the list of Powers Sorcerors can take.
WoM has the daemonology powers listed for the Sorcerors and Arhiman, but Horrors don't have it.
While I agree that is odd, and a very good RAI argument, Codedices and expansions must specifically override something from the BRB for it to be RAW. The absence of a rule that the BRB inherently grants does NOT override access to such rule.
I suspect an FAQ to address this (hopefully) and will probably disallow access to Malefic (let's hope for balance sake). But until such FAQ is published, nothing prevents Pink, Blue or Brimstone horrors from using Malefic.
Slayer le boucher wrote: 6th Ed CSM codex doesn't have Deamonology in the list of Powers Sorcerors can take.
WoM has the daemonology powers listed for the Sorcerors and Arhiman, but Horrors don't have it.
While I agree that is odd, and a very good RAI argument, Codedices and expansions must specifically override something from the BRB.
The absence of a rule that the BRB inherently grants does NOT override access to such rule.
I suspect an FAQ to address this (hopefully) and will probably disallow access to Malefic (let's hope for balance sake).
But until such FAQ is published, nothing prevents Pink, Blue or Brimstone horrors from using Malefic.
-
It might very well be the case, but the wait of a FaQ for WoM would be a long one i assume, since we just got the basic rules one and still are waiting for the final version of all the codexes ones.
nintura wrote: So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.
I will assume that you din't read any of the HH fluff or books, since its explained in them that the Great Crusade lasted 200-300years iirc( someone can confirm this if they want).
Also the fluff established a long time ago that the Primarchs lifespan was in the 500-600-ish years, that all those that survived the heresy, simply died out of extreme age( bare for those who mysterously dissapeared and are Prophetised to come back at the end of times, yeah convinient i know)
The Dante's case is a particular one, since no one knows how the heck he's alive, either someone else in the Chapter takes up his armor and mask and then the name Dante is a Legacy passed on, or ...well since BA are kinda Space Vampires with all their blood exchange/infusion, he has acces to a life extending technology.
Its said in the fluff that the Great Crusade expansion was really really fast, with entiere Legions of Millions of Space Marines, and countless NAvy and IG devided into expeditionary groups and scattered all over the galaxy, it took them decades to reach the outskirts of the galaxy and a century to consildate their Power over the Galaxy.
At the time the Warp wasn't has brutal as it is now, it was still dangerous, but its really towards the end of the Great Crusade and at the start of the HH that SM had their first conflicts with Daemons, prior to that, they Though Daemons where simply another Xeno race that lived in the Warp.
When you factor all this, yeah, they conquered at an incredible pace the galaxy, and it din't take them a millenia.
That's not even possible nor does it even make sense lol.
But ignoring all the impossibilities of conquering millions of planets (if not billions) in the span of a few centuries, let alone travel time getting to them, you said Primarchs died out due to old age. Which Primarchs would these be? There were more than the 18 or so first talked about?
It might very well be the case, but the wait of a FaQ for WoM would be a long one i assume, since we just got the basic rules one and still are waiting for the final version of all the codexes ones.
it may not be as long as you think. The Curse of the Wulfen was very new when we got the Draft FAQ, yet they including some stuff about it in there.
Hopefully the final draft FAQ for Chaos will include stuff about Wrath of Magnus.
I would be fine if Horrors did not have access to Malefic anymore, especially since they spawn guaranteed new units and still provide WC. The only thing that I would miss in my lists would be the extra chance to roll Cursed Earth or Incursion.
I still can't believe more people are not freaking out about a 90pt unit that spawns two 50pts units that spawn two 30pt units
Edit: I just realized something: If you have a Herald or other Psyker cast Sacrifice and kill 1 Pink horror, then you get 1 Herald + 2 Blue Horrors.
And until FAQ'd, a unit of 10 Pink Horrors that uses Posession will be removed and you'll get a Greater Daemon + 20 Blue Horrors....sick
nintura wrote: You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.
Worth keeping mind # of BL books!=amount of fluff game has.
Then what would you go off of? Number of Codex? Supplements? Board games? Websites? Data?
Obviously you need to incorporate all. Codex, rpg's, white dwarf articles...it's fluff, it gets counted
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nintura wrote: [
That's not even possible nor does it even make sense lol.
But ignoring all the impossibilities of conquering millions of planets (if not billions) in the span of a few centuries, let alone travel time getting to them, you said Primarchs died out due to old age. Which Primarchs would these be? There were more than the 18 or so first talked about?
Primarch were not fighting alone you know...give me 1000 fleets and i'll conquer 1000 times as fast as one fleet
nintura wrote: You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.
Worth keeping mind # of BL books!=amount of fluff game has.
Then what would you go off of? Number of Codex? Supplements? Board games? Websites? Data?
Obviously you need to incorporate all. Codex, rpg's, white dwarf articles...it's fluff, it gets counted
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nintura wrote: [
That's not even possible nor does it even make sense lol.
But ignoring all the impossibilities of conquering millions of planets (if not billions) in the span of a few centuries, let alone travel time getting to them, you said Primarchs died out due to old age. Which Primarchs would these be? There were more than the 18 or so first talked about?
Primarch were not fighting alone you know...give me 1000 fleets and i'll conquer 1000 times as fast as one fleet
Have all the troops you want, it wouldn't be enough to do it in 300 years
Have all the troops you want, it wouldn't be enough to do it in 300 years
Yes if all troops were in same spot. They were not.
One fleet conquers 300 planet a year(often just by coming to orbit. Sometimes conquer one, conquer many at the same time). 1000 fleet therefore takes 300,000 in a year. GC lasted 200 year(not thousands. Pretty close to 200-300). That's 60,000,000 planets
nintura wrote: Well, we've gone off track, but I dont think you understand the distance between locations and the actual size of the galaxy.
And you seem to be on assumption each primarch had all on one fleet.
But complain to gw. They wrote it. It's official. There's no possibility gc lasted thousands of years. Between birth of slaanes(before which gc was flat out impossible) and hh was just couple centuries.
Arque with gw. They came up with timeline. To have gc last thousands of years requires time trave' or something equally silly
nintura wrote: So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.
I will assume that you din't read any of the HH fluff or books, since its explained in them that the Great Crusade lasted 200-300years iirc( someone can confirm this if they want).
Also the fluff established a long time ago that the Primarchs lifespan was in the 500-600-ish years, that all those that survived the heresy, simply died out of extreme age( bare for those who mysterously dissapeared and are Prophetised to come back at the end of times, yeah convinient i know)
The Dante's case is a particular one, since no one knows how the heck he's alive, either someone else in the Chapter takes up his armor and mask and then the name Dante is a Legacy passed on, or ...well since BA are kinda Space Vampires with all their blood exchange/infusion, he has acces to a life extending technology.
Its said in the fluff that the Great Crusade expansion was really really fast, with entiere Legions of Millions of Space Marines, and countless NAvy and IG devided into expeditionary groups and scattered all over the galaxy, it took them decades to reach the outskirts of the galaxy and a century to consildate their Power over the Galaxy.
At the time the Warp wasn't has brutal as it is now, it was still dangerous, but its really towards the end of the Great Crusade and at the start of the HH that SM had their first conflicts with Daemons, prior to that, they Though Daemons where simply another Xeno race that lived in the Warp.
When you factor all this, yeah, they conquered at an incredible pace the galaxy, and it din't take them a millenia.
Doesn't the warp exist outside of time? If so they wouldn't come out the exact age they went in?
nintura wrote: So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.
I will assume that you din't read any of the HH fluff or books, since its explained in them that the Great Crusade lasted 200-300years iirc( someone can confirm this if they want).
Also the fluff established a long time ago that the Primarchs lifespan was in the 500-600-ish years, that all those that survived the heresy, simply died out of extreme age( bare for those who mysterously dissapeared and are Prophetised to come back at the end of times, yeah convinient i know)
The Dante's case is a particular one, since no one knows how the heck he's alive, either someone else in the Chapter takes up his armor and mask and then the name Dante is a Legacy passed on, or ...well since BA are kinda Space Vampires with all their blood exchange/infusion, he has acces to a life extending technology.
Its said in the fluff that the Great Crusade expansion was really really fast, with entiere Legions of Millions of Space Marines, and countless NAvy and IG devided into expeditionary groups and scattered all over the galaxy, it took them decades to reach the outskirts of the galaxy and a century to consildate their Power over the Galaxy.
At the time the Warp wasn't has brutal as it is now, it was still dangerous, but its really towards the end of the Great Crusade and at the start of the HH that SM had their first conflicts with Daemons, prior to that, they Though Daemons where simply another Xeno race that lived in the Warp.
When you factor all this, yeah, they conquered at an incredible pace the galaxy, and it din't take them a millenia.
Doesn't the warp exist outside of time? If so they wouldn't come out the exact age they went in?
Eh, that's not quite true. It still takes time for those outside of the warp as evidenced by the books and it sometimes taking years to reach a system under attack. And warp travel isn't instantaneous, it still takes time for those inside as well. It just shortens the window, in essence it's faster than light travel, but not that much faster.
Slayer le boucher wrote: quick question because i can't find it back, wasn't there a formation for the Daemons that doubled the amounts of Horrors spawing from the Split rule?
exalted locus of creation (35 pts), pg 57
Vet may I ask what the Icon of Flame does now?
Icon of flame for CSW TS unit: any weapons with "Bolter" have soul blaze
Icon of fire: Tz demons: demons in this unit have soul blaze in close combat attacks
That is not quite correct nintura. Time does not travel linearly in the warp. It is entirely possible (and has happened) that some fleets have arrived at star systems before they were actually ordered to leave or the system even requested help.
People in the warp experience time but the time they experience could have absolutely no correlation to the time experienced by those outside the warp, or even others within the warp. So you could have two people enter the warp at the same time and one experiences a longer time than the other in the warp (say he thinks he was in there for 100 years and the other guy thinks he was in there for 5 minutes) but also leaves the warp sooner than the other from the point of view of an observer outside the warp.
A Town Called Malus wrote: That is not quite correct nintura. Time does not travel linearly in the warp. It is entirely possible (and has happened) that some fleets have arrived at star systems before they were actually ordered to leave or the system even requested help.
People in the warp experience time but the time they experience could have absolutely no correlation to the time experienced by those outside the warp, or even others within the warp. So you could have two people enter the warp at the same time and one experiences a longer time than the other in the warp but also leaves the warp sooner than the other from the point of view of an observer outside the warp.
Thats literally throwing your hands up in the air and pro-claiming "Hell if I know"
Yes you are correct, but I was referring to the parts we know in which warp travel was taking linearly because anything else is literally a random throw of the dice.
Wilson wrote: I learned a few pretty cool things today about the future of 40k that I can't keep to myself but must keep the source identity as anonymous as he is a part of the design team...
Spoiler:
Next primarch release is Guiliman in a sort of dreadnight suit. Following him will be Ferrus! In short, his spirit lived on in the machine, so somehow he was cloned and is genetically reborn on Mars. Following those two is demon mortation.
The general jist is that ALL major primarchs are on there way back with the exception of Horus, Sanguinius, Curze etc.
It'll be a final seige on Terra and the next campaign will build up to the demon primarchs breaking in to the emperors throne room and confronting the man himself before the lights go out. No clue what happens after that!
In terms of rules for the next edition, all that was said was that scatter dice would be a thing of the past.
nintura wrote: So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.
I will assume that you din't read any of the HH fluff or books, since its explained in them that the Great Crusade lasted 200-300years iirc( someone can confirm this if they want).
Also the fluff established a long time ago that the Primarchs lifespan was in the 500-600-ish years, that all those that survived the heresy, simply died out of extreme age( bare for those who mysterously dissapeared and are Prophetised to come back at the end of times, yeah convinient i know)
The Dante's case is a particular one, since no one knows how the heck he's alive, either someone else in the Chapter takes up his armor and mask and then the name Dante is a Legacy passed on, or ...well since BA are kinda Space Vampires with all their blood exchange/infusion, he has acces to a life extending technology.
Its said in the fluff that the Great Crusade expansion was really really fast, with entiere Legions of Millions of Space Marines, and countless NAvy and IG devided into expeditionary groups and scattered all over the galaxy, it took them decades to reach the outskirts of the galaxy and a century to consildate their Power over the Galaxy.
At the time the Warp wasn't has brutal as it is now, it was still dangerous, but its really towards the end of the Great Crusade and at the start of the HH that SM had their first conflicts with Daemons, prior to that, they Though Daemons where simply another Xeno race that lived in the Warp.
When you factor all this, yeah, they conquered at an incredible pace the galaxy, and it din't take them a millenia.
Doesn't the warp exist outside of time? If so they wouldn't come out the exact age they went in?
Eh, that's not quite true. It still takes time for those outside of the warp as evidenced by the books and it sometimes taking years to reach a system under attack. And warp travel isn't instantaneous, it still takes time for those inside as well. It just shortens the window, in essence it's faster than light travel, but not that much faster.
No, it depends. There's mention in the fluff - can't remember where, but I know I read it - of ships coming out of the Warp and encountering themselves before they leave. Time is mutable in the Warp, which translates into "whatever the writers need it to be."
Lol yeah, pretty much. For a fun point though, I thought it would be interesting to note that there is a way to make this all possible, and not with "magic travel".
There is a high enough velocity that will allow you to travel to any point instantaneously, despite the distance. An easy way to understand this is Star Treks "Warp 10", using the new definition, not the old one (there have been ships that broke warp 10 but this was later reduced as they condensed all speeds).
Warp 10 was a theoretical speed in which the traveler occupies all possible spaces in the universe simultaneously. To imagine this, think that you have an apple in your hand, you can point at any part of it and be there. Except that apple is all of the universe. It's kinda like you step out of your universe which becomes a little ball.
A Town Called Malus wrote: That is not quite correct nintura. Time does not travel linearly in the warp. It is entirely possible (and has happened) that some fleets have arrived at star systems before they were actually ordered to leave or the system even requested help.
People in the warp experience time but the time they experience could have absolutely no correlation to the time experienced by those outside the warp, or even others within the warp. So you could have two people enter the warp at the same time and one experiences a longer time than the other in the warp (say he thinks he was in there for 100 years and the other guy thinks he was in there for 5 minutes) but also leaves the warp sooner than the other from the point of view of an observer outside the warp.
The warp sounds very... Chaotic
•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
A Town Called Malus wrote: That is not quite correct nintura. Time does not travel linearly in the warp. It is entirely possible (and has happened) that some fleets have arrived at star systems before they were actually ordered to leave or the system even requested help.
People in the warp experience time but the time they experience could have absolutely no correlation to the time experienced by those outside the warp, or even others within the warp. So you could have two people enter the warp at the same time and one experiences a longer time than the other in the warp (say he thinks he was in there for 100 years and the other guy thinks he was in there for 5 minutes) but also leaves the warp sooner than the other from the point of view of an observer outside the warp.
The warp sounds very... Chaotic
•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
VeteranNoob wrote: Icon of fire: Tz demons: demons in this unit have soul blaze in close combat attacks
Would it be possible for you to tell us how much the relics cost?
Also, can you elaborate on the Daemons side of things? what does the tzeentch warpstorm table look like? what are the benifits of a "daemons of tzeentch detachment"? not the tzeench daemon decurion, but the "you can make any daemons detachment a tzeentch daemon detachment" bit, like the thousand sons. (is that even a thing?)
Wilson wrote: I learned a few pretty cool things today about the future of 40k that I can't keep to myself but must keep the source identity as anonymous as he is a part of the design team...
Spoiler:
Next primarch release is Guiliman in a sort of dreadnight suit. Following him will be Ferrus! In short, his spirit lived on in the machine, so somehow he was cloned and is genetically reborn on Mars. Following those two is demon mortation.
The general jist is that ALL major primarchs are on there way back with the exception of Horus, Sanguinius, Curze etc.
It'll be a final seige on Terra and the next campaign will build up to the demon primarchs breaking in to the emperors throne room and confronting the man himself before the lights go out. No clue what happens after that!
In terms of rules for the next edition, all that was said was that scatter dice would be a thing of the past.
Well, this sounds like a giant pile of gak.
Ferrus? Being cloned and reborn on Mars?
Hold me whilst I laugh until my sides bleed.
Ferrus is dead. Deader than dead. Cloning Primarchs....doesn't really work - we know this from Fabius Bile's attempts. Please note that Fabius is probably the most capable geneticist alive after the Emperor and well, one of them is sat in a golden throne and not saying much.
Reborn on Mars? No no no. Have you not paid attention the past 3 editions where it was STRONGLY indicated that Mars' cult is probably very, very deeply rooted in the C'tan of the Void Dragon? They're not about to spontaneously poop out a clone of Ferrus - for one thing, Mars doesn't do genetics. You can't extract genetic material from a machine.
The fact you list the dead ones as the exception and try to push a dead one as coming back says horsegak.
A Town Called Malus wrote: That is not quite correct nintura. Time does not travel linearly in the warp. It is entirely possible (and has happened) that some fleets have arrived at star systems before they were actually ordered to leave or the system even requested help.
People in the warp experience time but the time they experience could have absolutely no correlation to the time experienced by those outside the warp, or even others within the warp. So you could have two people enter the warp at the same time and one experiences a longer time than the other in the warp but also leaves the warp sooner than the other from the point of view of an observer outside the warp.
Thats literally throwing your hands up in the air and pro-claiming "Hell if I know"
Yes you are correct, but I was referring to the parts we know in which warp travel was taking linearly because anything else is literally a random throw of the dice.
"Hell if I know" is appropriate. The 40k universe is so vast that everything imaginable is canonical. Don't expect consistency.
Reborn on Mars? No no no. Have you not paid attention the past 3 editions where it was STRONGLY indicated that Mars' cult is probably very, very deeply rooted in the C'tan of the Void Dragon? They're not about to spontaneously poop out a clone of Ferrus - for one thing, Mars doesn't do genetics. You can't extract genetic material from a machine.
Oh god, now I have this horrifying image of an all Living Metal Ferrus Manus bar two fleshy hands, tearing himself out of the Void Dragon shard on Mars.
Reborn on Mars? No no no. Have you not paid attention the past 3 editions where it was STRONGLY indicated that Mars' cult is probably very, very deeply rooted in the C'tan of the Void Dragon? They're not about to spontaneously poop out a clone of Ferrus - for one thing, Mars doesn't do genetics. You can't extract genetic material from a machine.
Oh god, now I have this horrifying image of an all Living Metal Ferrus Manus bar two fleshy hands, tearing himself out of the Void Dragon shard on Mars.
The Pre-Heresy gene cultists were on Luna, not Mars. If that rumor had any chance of being real, they would have at least named the more reasonable astral body.
A Town Called Malus wrote: That is not quite correct nintura. Time does not travel linearly in the warp. It is entirely possible (and has happened) that some fleets have arrived at star systems before they were actually ordered to leave or the system even requested help.
People in the warp experience time but the time they experience could have absolutely no correlation to the time experienced by those outside the warp, or even others within the warp. So you could have two people enter the warp at the same time and one experiences a longer time than the other in the warp but also leaves the warp sooner than the other from the point of view of an observer outside the warp.
Thats literally throwing your hands up in the air and pro-claiming "Hell if I know"
Yes you are correct, but I was referring to the parts we know in which warp travel was taking linearly because anything else is literally a random throw of the dice.
Well funny that. That's how GW designed the warp. It is NOT linear.
Really check up on fluff GW HAS written. That way you don't claim great crusade took thousands of years when that's flat out impossibility according to GW's official time line which puts it from starting around year 29800 with birth of Slaanesh(before which large scale space travel was impossible which is why Emperor prepared on earth since he knew warp storms would calm soon) and lasted until first decades of next millenia.
Yeah it sounds ridiculously small timeframe so you need to up the scale of number of fleets enough. If you have fleets conquering tens if not hundreds of thousands of systems simultaneously it makes more sense. And 40k has always been about dialing up numbers up. Hundreds of thousands of fleets ain't nothing in 40k.
A Town Called Malus wrote: That is not quite correct nintura. Time does not travel linearly in the warp. It is entirely possible (and has happened) that some fleets have arrived at star systems before they were actually ordered to leave or the system even requested help.
People in the warp experience time but the time they experience could have absolutely no correlation to the time experienced by those outside the warp, or even others within the warp. So you could have two people enter the warp at the same time and one experiences a longer time than the other in the warp but also leaves the warp sooner than the other from the point of view of an observer outside the warp.
Thats literally throwing your hands up in the air and pro-claiming "Hell if I know"
Yes you are correct, but I was referring to the parts we know in which warp travel was taking linearly because anything else is literally a random throw of the dice.
Well funny that. That's how GW designed the warp. It is NOT linear.
Really check up on fluff GW HAS written. That way you don't claim great crusade took thousands of years when that's flat out impossibility according to GW's official time line which puts it from starting around year 29800 with birth of Slaanesh(before which large scale space travel was impossible which is why Emperor prepared on earth since he knew warp storms would calm soon) and lasted until first decades of next millenia.
Yeah it sounds ridiculously small timeframe so you need to up the scale of number of fleets enough. If you have fleets conquering tens if not hundreds of thousands of systems simultaneously it makes more sense. And 40k has always been about dialing up numbers up. Hundreds of thousands of fleets ain't nothing in 40k.
Unless you're talking trillions of fleets, it's not going to happen. Not in that time frame. Yes, GW can say what they want because that's how it worked. But it wouldn't happen in reality. There's an estimated 100 BILLION habitable planets in the Milkway alone. And that's 1% of 1% of 1% (it goes on, but I dont like to repeat myself) of the planets out there. So even given your possible theory of 60 million planets conquered in 300 years, you'd need to really, REALLY ramp that up. And that's not going to happen by the year 30,000 by the best of times.
Seriously guys, take foxphoenix's advice and move your discussion to the background forum.
Re: foxphoenix,
Besides the initial leak that we got a couple of weeks ago that was from the guy who 'predicted' (some argue he didn't predict it at all) traitors hate. Seems strange though seeing how close we are getting to it's release that there are no leaks.
nintura wrote: Unless you're talking trillions of fleets, it's not going to happen. Not in that time frame. Yes, GW can say what they want because that's how it worked. But it wouldn't happen in reality. There's an estimated 100 BILLION habitable planets in the Milkway alone. And that's 1% of 1% of 1% (it goes on, but I dont like to repeat myself) of the planets out there. So even given your possible theory of 60 million planets conquered in 300 years, you'd need to really, REALLY ramp that up. And that's not going to happen by the year 30,000 by the best of times.
So you ramp the numbers up.
Also btw that's a) estimate b) IoM did not conquer every habitable planet.
Whatever you arque fact is GC took about 200 years. End of story. You can arque about whether it's logical for us or not but that's the fact.
Pages upon pages of opinion with very little content. It's very ultracrepidarian.
I may have missed it somewhere in this mess, but do we have any information relating to the actual rules for the Thousand Sons (ideally someone who has managed to sneak an early copy?)
But we're not talking about reality. We're talking about space fantasy where our knowledge of "reality" is completely meaningless. Now can you please stop trying to apply real-world physics to an imaginery universe and physics-less daemonic dimension and leave this thread for it's intended purpose?
Wulfmar wrote: Pages upon pages of opinion with very little content. It's very ultracrepidarian.
I may have missed it somewhere in this mess, but do we have any information relating to the actual rules for the Thousand Sons (ideally someone who has managed to sneak an early copy?)
We may see some scans around Wednesday if I had to guess.
Can you guys please take your discussion to the background forum, please!
Wulfmar wrote: Pages upon pages of opinion with very little content. It's very ultracrepidarian.
I may have missed it somewhere in this mess, but do we have any information relating to the actual rules for the Thousand Sons (ideally someone who has managed to sneak an early copy?)
I already own my copy of the book. I will be home in about half an hour.
Prepare your questions!!!!!!
We haven't seen much on the Daemons. We know about the new Horror rule, but is there anything new with other entires like the Flamers? What about the new Warpstorm table?
I already own my copy of the book. I will be home in about half an hour.
Prepare your questions!!!!!!
What is the initial cost for a unit of Tzaangors and their min size? I read they were 7 each after initial cost and max size was 30. Is there a cost for them to take auto pistols and chainswords?
I already own my copy of the book. I will be home in about half an hour.
Prepare your questions!!!!!!
Hey luchiban, thanks for this. If you have a chance to just check to see if there's any update to the Mark of Tzeentch rules or the Tzeentch discipline rules and whether Psykers with the Mark of Tzeentch still have to generate one power from the Tzeentch discipline and can only generate up to half their powers from the discipline. I suspect there isn't from looking at the table of contents on BOLS but if it's going to be anywhere I guess it'd be in the armoury (if the MoT has a specific entry) or in the Discipline of Tzeentch section.
I already own my copy of the book. I will be home in about half an hour.
Prepare your questions!!!!!!
Excellent news! Thank you in advance!
1) Standard Thousand Sons Squads
- What weapon choices are available?
- How do you reckon it affect compositions of the squad (are you encouraged to go for a specific type of weapon to make use of any specific bonuses?)
2) Occult terminators
- Anything notably different to normal CSM terminator weapon choices?
3) Ahriman
- Does he have to be mounted on a disk of Tzeentch now?
Thanks again - hope you enjoy flicking through the book!
Do the warpflame weapons have the boost to an enemies FNP or is simply plus 1 AP and soulblaze.
Do not have the rule in print but I read that it depends on your enemies toughness.
Also if you have a flamer is it soulblaze or do you need the Icon. same question for Soul reaper cannon, soulblaze or not.
3) Ahriman
- Does he have to be mounted on a disk of Tzeentch now?
Thanks again - hope you enjoy flicking through the book!
I know we have a book INC, but I think the sculptor was talking about how he made Ahriman stand and look good on and off the disk. So a possible hint, or reading into it too far.
Skerr wrote: I need to read up on the whole decurion.
Is it possible to just take a normal cad?
HQ and 2 troops, season to taste?
Or do I need to follow with detachment rules?
I think I can answer that one (or rather this handy screenshot can here). But essentially any Chaos Space Marine detachment (and I guess regular book ones) can be a Thousand Sons detachment provided it meets those restrictions.
In theory this could apply to other detachments and formations from other CSM books.
VeteranNoob wrote: Icon of fire: Tz demons: demons in this unit have soul blaze in close combat attacks
Would it be possible for you to tell us how much the relics cost?
Also, can you elaborate on the Daemons side of things? what does the tzeentch warpstorm table look like? what are the benifits of a "daemons of tzeentch detachment"? not the tzeench daemon decurion, but the "you can make any daemons detachment a tzeentch daemon detachment" bit, like the thousand sons. (is that even a thing?)
CSM Rubrics icon flame 15 as well as icon fire for Pink Horrors
As far as the generic Tz demons that's in Curse of Wulfen along w/warlord traits and I don't have that. This was before our review time. Someone here surely can answer that. I'd be curious to know but won't see that book until this weekend when a friend shows me those older stats.
If your warlord has Demon of Tz rule and is the decurion either from Curse of Wulfen or Wrath of Magnus they can opt to use this Tz warp storm table each shooting phase
ranges from hurting a friend or foe to create a chaosspawn, taking your unit off the board to deep strike them next round, harnessing on 3+, warpflame flamers, both players getting rerolls, cheaper psyker powers, potentially everyone getting hit by warpflame, create brimstones, possession, to creating a Lord of Change.
CSM Rubrics icon flame 15 as well as icon fire for Pink Horrors
As far as the generic Tz demons that's in Curse of Wulfen along w/warlord traits and I don't have that. This was before our review time. Someone here surely can answer that. I'd be curious to know but won't see that book until this weekend when a friend shows me those older stats.
If your warlord has Demon of Tz rule and is the decurion either from Curse of Wulfen or Wrath of Magnus they can opt to use this Tz warp storm table each shooting phase
ranges from hurting a friend or foe to create a chaosspawn, taking your unit off the board to deep strike them next round, harnessing on 3+, warpflame flamers, both players getting rerolls, cheaper psyker powers, potentially everyone getting hit by warpflame, create brimstones, possession, to creating a Lord of Change.
Thanks! What about the costs of the new tzeentch CSM artifacts in the new book?
Skerr wrote: I need to read up on the whole decurion.
Is it possible to just take a normal cad?
HQ and 2 troops, season to taste?
Or do I need to follow with detachment rules?
I think I can answer that one (or rather this handy screenshot can here). But essentially any Chaos Space Marine detachment (and I guess regular book ones) can be a Thousand Sons detachment provided it meets those restrictions.
In theory this could apply to other detachments and formations from other CSM books.
Though could I do that with units in WOM. Ahriman and 2 troops from WOM?
Skerr wrote: I need to read up on the whole decurion.
Is it possible to just take a normal cad?
HQ and 2 troops, season to taste?
Or do I need to follow with detachment rules?
I think I can answer that one (or rather this handy screenshot can here). But essentially any Chaos Space Marine detachment (and I guess regular book ones) can be a Thousand Sons detachment provided it meets those restrictions.
In theory this could apply to other detachments and formations from other CSM books.
Though could I do that with units in WOM. Ahriman and 2 troops from WOM?
I guess so. We'd have to see if the Dataslates are all from Chaos Space Marines (Like the Horrors are they just for Daemons or the specific formations in WoM) but I imagine Ahriman and either Tzaangors or Rubrics would be available in a Combined Arms Detachment.
Skerr wrote: I need to read up on the whole decurion.
Is it possible to just take a normal cad?
HQ and 2 troops, season to taste?
Or do I need to follow with detachment rules?
I think I can answer that one (or rather this handy screenshot can here). But essentially any Chaos Space Marine detachment (and I guess regular book ones) can be a Thousand Sons detachment provided it meets those restrictions.
In theory this could apply to other detachments and formations from other CSM books.
Though could I do that with units in WOM. Ahriman and 2 troops from WOM?
I guess so. We'd have to see if the Dataslates are all from Chaos Space Marines (Like the Horrors are they just for Daemons or the specific formations in WoM) but I imagine Ahriman and either Tzaangors or Rubrics would be available in a Combined Arms Detachment.
VeteranNoob wrote: Icon of fire: Tz demons: demons in this unit have soul blaze in close combat attacks
Would it be possible for you to tell us how much the relics cost?
Also, can you elaborate on the Daemons side of things? what does the tzeentch warpstorm table look like? what are the benifits of a "daemons of tzeentch detachment"? not the tzeench daemon decurion, but the "you can make any daemons detachment a tzeentch daemon detachment" bit, like the thousand sons. (is that even a thing?)
CSM Rubrics icon flame 15 as well as icon fire for Pink Horrors
As far as the generic Tz demons that's in Curse of Wulfen along w/warlord traits and I don't have that. This was before our review time. Someone here surely can answer that. I'd be curious to know but won't see that book until this weekend when a friend shows me those older stats.
If your warlord has Demon of Tz rule and is the decurion either from Curse of Wulfen or Wrath of Magnus they can opt to use this Tz warp storm table each shooting phase
ranges from hurting a friend or foe to create a chaosspawn, taking your unit off the board to deep strike them next round, harnessing on 3+, warpflame flamers, both players getting rerolls, cheaper psyker powers, potentially everyone getting hit by warpflame, create brimstones, possession, to creating a Lord of Change.
So the icon of flame didn't change at all? Except not affecting bolt pistols now?
A lot of talk about Magnus, what about Ahriman on a disk? With new speed and no roll to hit for shreik he could potentially throw out 4 shreiks a turn. Potentially joining a screamer star could this be a big thing? Points heavy yes but that's a lot of shreik.
skycapt44 wrote: A lot of talk about Magnus, what about Ahriman on a disk? With new speed and no roll to hit for shreik he could potentially throw out 4 shreiks a turn. Potentially joining a screamer star could this be a big thing? Points heavy yes but that's a lot of shreik.
Definitely. Ahriman will become the bane of, well, everything.
Ahirman can only cast the same witchfire up to three times, not four. He's also still stuck with rolling once the discipline of tzeentch. Although that got a LOT better with the cabal power. Still not sure whether or not gaze of magnus is part of that or not, but that would be nasty if you have enough warp charges to cast that three times. Not sure that's even feasible mind you.
I already own my copy of the book. I will be home in about half an hour.
Prepare your questions!!!!!!
Excellent news! Thank you in advance!
1) Standard Thousand Sons Squads
- What weapon choices are available?
- How do you reckon it affect compositions of the squad (are you encouraged to go for a specific type of weapon to make use of any specific bonuses?)
2) Occult terminators
- Anything notably different to normal CSM terminator weapon choices?
3) Ahriman
- Does he have to be mounted on a disk of Tzeentch now?
Thanks again - hope you enjoy flicking through the book!
Ok, let's get the party started:
1) Rubric Marines: 150 points for 4 guys + sorcered. Standard equipment as usual. Any Rubric Marine may take a warp flamer for +7 points. For every 10, 1 may get the assualt cannon thing. Rest is more or less as always.
2) Termies are slightly different: 250 points for 4 guys + sorcerer (Lvl 2). For every five guys, one may get a heavy weapon (Heavy Flamer(+15) or, Assault cannon thing (+30)). May not take Power fists and/or any other CC weapon than the power sword. For every five models, one may get the Missile thing (+20).
Roknar wrote: Ahirman can only cast the same witchfire up to three times, not four. He's also still stuck with rolling once the discipline of tzeentch. Although that got a LOT better with the cabal power. Still not sure whether or not gaze of magnus is part of that or not, but that would be nasty if you have enough warp charges to cast that three times. Not sure that's even feasible mind you.
I'm pretty sure Gaze of Magnus is unique to Magnus, as the name suggests.
Artefacts (Some interesting ones here, and as usual translation of names may be innaccurate)
- Astral Grimoire (30 points):At the beginning of your Movement phase choose either the bearer or a single infantry unit. This unit gets the Jump Infantry type until the end of the phase.
- Doom of the ser (40 points): Daemon weapon, AP2, Combat, Force. Agaist non-vehicle targets the roll to wound is made Ld vs Ld. To calculte instant death the Ld of the bearer is used agaist the T.
- Third eye helmet (20 points): The bearer and his unit may make overwatch attacks, even if the are S&P. Non S&P units may overwatch with BS2.
- Arcane staff thing (10 points): Standard staff, but when the bearer or his unit are charged, charging unit has -2 to the charging distance.
Artefacts (Some interesting ones here, and as usual translation of names may be innaccurate)
- Astral Grimoire (30 points):At the beginning of your Movement phase choose either the bearer or a single infantry unit. This unit gets the Jump Infantry type until the end of the phase.
- Doom of the ser (40 points): Daemon weapon, AP2, Combat, Force. Agaist non-vehicle targets the roll to wound is made Ld vs Ld. To calculte instant death the Ld of the bearer is used agaist the T.
- Third eye helmet (20 points): The bearer and his unit may make overwatch attacks, even if the are S&P. Non S&P units may overwatch with BS2.
- Arcane staff thing (10 points): Standard staff, but when the bearer or his unit are charged, charging unit has -2 to the charging distance.
buddha wrote: Thanks Ichiban! What are the auxiliary formations for the thousand sons decurion?
Let's go with formations then:
War cabal:
1 Ahriman, Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer
1-3 Rubric Marines
1-3 S O Termies
1-3 Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer
Benefits:
If formation is maximezed in number of units, reroll 1's to sabe.
I a Psyker manifest one power, during the next Psychic phase the Psyker and his unit may reroll 1's to hit
War Coven
1 Daemon Prince, Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3-9 Sorcerer of Exalted Sorcerer
Benefits:
Same as War Cabal (reroll 1's to sabe when max)
The formation may choose one of the psychic disciplines of the BRB and cast those powers with 3+, instead of 4+.
Tzangoor warheard
1 Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3 units of Tzangoors
0-6 units of Tzangoors or Spaws
Benefits:
Fleet
Reroll to save 1's when max
Tzangoors may run and charge. If charge distance is 9 or more, +1S and +1I.
Sehkmet Conclave
1 Sorcerer, Exalted Sorcecer, Daemon Prince, Ahriman or Magnus
3-9 Units of Scarab Termis
Benefits:
Fear
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Units in this formation have +1T if they are at 6" of any other 2 units of this formation.
Ahriman Exiles
Ahriman
3-9 Exalted Sorcerers
Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Ahriman and any sorcerer at 18" cast powers with 3+.
Rehati War Sect
Magnus
3-9 Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer
Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
If at 18" of Magnus, the formation cast powers with 3+, and have line of sight with every unit in the battlefield.
Hey Iuchiban, thanks as always for this.
I have some Daemon specific questions:
--Do the unit entries for Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors replace/add to the entries in Codex: Daemon? or are they unique to CSM detahcments taken as Thousand Sons?
--Can Blue or Brimstone Horrors be taken in the Warpflame Host formation from the Incursion Detachment? Or can they only be taken in CADs and certain Wraith of Magnus formations?
--Other that then Horrors, are there any other Daemon units in the book?
That daemon weapon is pretty nasty with using LD vs T for ID as it is most likely that the person running around with it will have LD 9 or 10 (I think, surely chaos sorcerers have high leadership?).
So they won't even need to activate the Force power to get ID on T4 or 5, freeing up warp charges for other powers.
Vash108 wrote: Pardon my lack of knowledge but what is S&P?
I believe Slow and Purposeful or something like that.
What is a sabe? At first I thought it was a spelling mistake and is suppose to be save, but I see it a few times. So is it suppose to be save or is it something else?
Vash108 wrote: Pardon my lack of knowledge but what is S&P?
I believe Slow and Purposeful or something like that.
What is a sabe? At first I thought it was a spelling mistake and is suppose to be save, but I see it a few times. So is it suppose to be save or is it something else?
It's just misspelling save. B is right next to V on the keyboard and I imagine they're trying to type fast to answer everyones questions
nintura wrote: Lol yeah, pretty much. For a fun point though, I thought it would be interesting to note that there is a way to make this all possible, and not with "magic travel".
There is a high enough velocity that will allow you to travel to any point instantaneously, despite the distance. An easy way to understand this is Star Treks "Warp 10", using the new definition, not the old one (there have been ships that broke warp 10 but this was later reduced as they condensed all speeds).
Warp 10 was a theoretical speed in which the traveler occupies all possible spaces in the universe simultaneously. To imagine this, think that you have an apple in your hand, you can point at any part of it and be there. Except that apple is all of the universe. It's kinda like you step out of your universe which becomes a little ball.
If you think that's possible even in theory, then your understanding of physics is about on the level of your understanding of 40K background (IE. not very good.) Now the former is completly understandable, as the theory of reality is really unintuitive and hard to grasp. But briefly, in reality travelling faster than light would effectively lead to time travel and breaking of causality. Star Trek's FTL is just as much 'magic' as 40K's. For more information google 'Theory of Relativity.'
Unless you're talking trillions of fleets, it's not going to happen. Not in that time frame. Yes, GW can say what they want because that's how it worked. But it wouldn't happen in reality. There's an estimated 100 BILLION habitable planets in the Milkway alone. And that's 1% of 1% of 1% (it goes on, but I dont like to repeat myself) of the planets out there. So even given your possible theory of 60 million planets conquered in 300 years, you'd need to really, REALLY ramp that up. And that's not going to happen by the year 30,000 by the best of times.
Imperium consists of about million worlds. That information is literally on the first pages of every edition of 40K. It is pretty futile to engage in arguments about fluff if you have no foggiest what the fluff actually entails.
Furthermore, you are also wrong about real physics again. Absolutely top estimate of planets in habitable zones of stars not hostile to like is 40 billion, and of course that does not account presence of water and other factors which affect the habitability of said planets.
buddha wrote: Thanks Ichiban! What are the auxiliary formations for the thousand sons decurion?
Let's go with formations then:
War cabal:
1 Ahriman, Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer
1-3 Rubric Marines
1-3 S O Termies
1-3 Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer
Benefits:
If formation is maximezed in number of units, reroll 1's to sabe.
I a Psyker manifest one power, during the next Psychic phase the Psyker and his unit may reroll 1's to hit
War Coven
1 Daemon Prince, Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3-9 Sorcerer of Exalted Sorcerer
Benefits:
Same as War Cabal (reroll 1's to sabe when max)
The formation may choose one of the psychic disciplines of the BRB and cast those powers with 3+, instead of 4+.
Tzangoor warheard
1 Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3 units of Tzangoors
0-6 units of Tzangoors or Spaws
Benefits:
Fleet
Reroll to save 1's when max
Tzangoors may run and charge. If charge distance is 9 or more, +1S and +1I.
Sehkmet Conclave
1 Sorcerer, Exalted Sorcecer, Daemon Prince, Ahriman or Magnus
3-9 Units of Scarab Termis
Benefits:
Fear
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Units in this formation have +1T if they are at 6" of any other 2 units of this formation.
Ahriman Exiles
Ahriman
3-9 Exalted Sorcerers
Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Ahriman and any sorcerer at 18" cast powers with 3+.
Rehati War Sect
Magnus
3-9 Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer
Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
If at 18" of Magnus, the formation cast powers with 3+, and have line of sight with every unit in the battlefield.
What are the non-formation auxilliary choices?
Also, how about the Daemon decurion's formations and aux choices?
It doesn't really say anything new but there is this:
"pecial rules with names like “The Butcher’s Nails”, “Many Heads of the Hydra” and “Iron Within, Iron Without” bring the well-loved background of the Heretic Astartes to life, and will be available to any detachment or formation pledged to the appropriate Legion (much like their loyalist brethren have access to Space Marine Chapter Tactics).
In addition, every Legion gets a Warlord Traits table, Chaos Artefacts and a dedicated Detachment of Formations, further rewarding armies that mirror the Legions as they appear in the background."
So every legion is getting their own decurion by the looks. That's more than I was expecing.
I wonder what that means for non TSons legions. I would expect them to copy paste the Wrath of Magnus formations without the daemon only parts. Unless we get all new formations (a man can dream right?)
Vash108 wrote: Pardon my lack of knowledge but what is S&P?
I believe Slow and Purposeful or something like that.
What is a sabe? At first I thought it was a spelling mistake and is suppose to be save, but I see it a few times. So is it suppose to be save or is it something else?
It's just misspelling save. B is right next to V on the keyboard and I imagine they're trying to type fast to answer everyones questions
Thanks, that is what I thought, just wanted to make sure since I am not familiar with all of 40K so wanted to make sure sabe didn't stand for something else with all the acronyms we have
It doesn't really say anything new but there is this:
"pecial rules with names like “The Butcher’s Nails”, “Many Heads of the Hydra” and “Iron Within, Iron Without” bring the well-loved background of the Heretic Astartes to life, and will be available to any detachment or formation pledged to the appropriate Legion (much like their loyalist brethren have access to Space Marine Chapter Tactics).
In addition, every Legion gets a Warlord Traits table, Chaos Artefacts and a dedicated Detachment of Formations, further rewarding armies that mirror the Legions as they appear in the background."
So every legion is getting their own decurion by the looks. That's more than I was expecing.
I wonder what that means for non TSons legions. I would expect them to copy paste the Wrath of Magnus formations without the daemon only parts. Unless we get all new formations (a man can dream right?)
Can't wait to see what they get, even if I am wary of them just being Copy, Paste versions of the Loyalists with name changes.
Also, how in the nine hells are you supposed to use that re-roll special rule when it require you to take a around of 2k+ points in every formation other than the tzangors? I didn't think it would be THAT hard to get. Even just 9 exalted sorcerers is almost 2k, not including the HW choice ^_-
It doesn't really say anything new but there is this:
"pecial rules with names like “The Butcher’s Nails”, “Many Heads of the Hydra” and “Iron Within, Iron Without” bring the well-loved background of the Heretic Astartes to life, and will be available to any detachment or formation pledged to the appropriate Legion (much like their loyalist brethren have access to Space Marine Chapter Tactics).
In addition, every Legion gets a Warlord Traits table, Chaos Artefacts and a dedicated Detachment of Formations, further rewarding armies that mirror the Legions as they appear in the background."
So every legion is getting their own decurion by the looks. That's more than I was expecing.
I wonder what that means for non TSons legions. I would expect them to copy paste the Wrath of Magnus formations without the daemon only parts. Unless we get all new formations (a man can dream right?)
Well the Alpha Legion players can stop worrying since “Many Heads of the Hydra” can be little else.
It doesn't really say anything new but there is this: "pecial rules with names like “The Butcher’s Nails”, “Many Heads of the Hydra” and “Iron Within, Iron Without” bring the well-loved background of the Heretic Astartes to life, and will be available to any detachment or formation pledged to the appropriate Legion (much like their loyalist brethren have access to Space Marine Chapter Tactics).
In addition, every Legion gets a Warlord Traits table, Chaos Artefacts and a dedicated Detachment of Formations, further rewarding armies that mirror the Legions as they appear in the background."
So every legion is getting their own decurion by the looks. That's more than I was expecing. I wonder what that means for non TSons legions. I would expect them to copy paste the Wrath of Magnus formations without the daemon only parts. Unless we get all new formations (a man can dream right?)
Can't wait to see what they get, even if I am wary of them just being Copy, Paste versions of the Loyalists with name changes.
Pfft, as if GW will give something to Chaos from a loyalist faction without attaching some kind of downside which makes it basically useless
nintura wrote: Lol yeah, pretty much. For a fun point though, I thought it would be interesting to note that there is a way to make this all possible, and not with "magic travel".
There is a high enough velocity that will allow you to travel to any point instantaneously, despite the distance. An easy way to understand this is Star Treks "Warp 10", using the new definition, not the old one (there have been ships that broke warp 10 but this was later reduced as they condensed all speeds).
Warp 10 was a theoretical speed in which the traveler occupies all possible spaces in the universe simultaneously. To imagine this, think that you have an apple in your hand, you can point at any part of it and be there. Except that apple is all of the universe. It's kinda like you step out of your universe which becomes a little ball.
If you think that's possible even in theory, then your understanding of physics is about on the level of your understanding of 40K background (IE. not very good.) Now the former is completly understandable, as the theory of reality is really unintuitive and hard to grasp. But briefly, in reality travelling faster than light would effectively lead to time travel and breaking of causality. Star Trek's FTL is just as much 'magic' as 40K's. For more information google 'Theory of Relativity.'
Unless you're talking trillions of fleets, it's not going to happen. Not in that time frame. Yes, GW can say what they want because that's how it worked. But it wouldn't happen in reality. There's an estimated 100 BILLION habitable planets in the Milkway alone. And that's 1% of 1% of 1% (it goes on, but I dont like to repeat myself) of the planets out there. So even given your possible theory of 60 million planets conquered in 300 years, you'd need to really, REALLY ramp that up. And that's not going to happen by the year 30,000 by the best of times.
Imperium consists of about million worlds. That information is literally on the first pages of every edition of 40K. It is pretty futile to engage in arguments about fluff if you have no foggiest what the fluff actually entails.
Furthermore, you are also wrong about real physics again. Absolutely top estimate of planets in habitable zones of stars not hostile to like is 40 billion, and of course that does not account presence of water and other factors which affect the habitability of said planets.
Not only did you miss the point, but you missed the posts and responses. We've been asked to forget it.
It doesn't really say anything new but there is this:
"pecial rules with names like “The Butcher’s Nails”, “Many Heads of the Hydra” and “Iron Within, Iron Without” bring the well-loved background of the Heretic Astartes to life, and will be available to any detachment or formation pledged to the appropriate Legion (much like their loyalist brethren have access to Space Marine Chapter Tactics).
In addition, every Legion gets a Warlord Traits table, Chaos Artefacts and a dedicated Detachment of Formations, further rewarding armies that mirror the Legions as they appear in the background."
So every legion is getting their own decurion by the looks. That's more than I was expecing.
I wonder what that means for non TSons legions. I would expect them to copy paste the Wrath of Magnus formations without the daemon only parts. Unless we get all new formations (a man can dream right?)
Can't wait to see what they get, even if I am wary of them just being Copy, Paste versions of the Loyalists with name changes.
Pfft, as if GW will give something to Chaos from a loyalist faction without attaching some kind of downside which makes it basically useless
Well they might copy paste them word for word like with the new disciplines. So enjoy those re-roll to hits with ultramarine units in your army
nintura wrote: Lol yeah, pretty much. For a fun point though, I thought it would be interesting to note that there is a way to make this all possible, and not with "magic travel".
There is a high enough velocity that will allow you to travel to any point instantaneously, despite the distance. An easy way to understand this is Star Treks "Warp 10", using the new definition, not the old one (there have been ships that broke warp 10 but this was later reduced as they condensed all speeds).
Warp 10 was a theoretical speed in which the traveler occupies all possible spaces in the universe simultaneously. To imagine this, think that you have an apple in your hand, you can point at any part of it and be there. Except that apple is all of the universe. It's kinda like you step out of your universe which becomes a little ball.
If you think that's possible even in theory, then your understanding of physics is about on the level of your understanding of 40K background (IE. not very good.) Now the former is completly understandable, as the theory of reality is really unintuitive and hard to grasp. But briefly, in reality travelling faster than light would effectively lead to time travel and breaking of causality. Star Trek's FTL is just as much 'magic' as 40K's. For more information google 'Theory of Relativity.'
Unless you're talking trillions of fleets, it's not going to happen. Not in that time frame. Yes, GW can say what they want because that's how it worked. But it wouldn't happen in reality. There's an estimated 100 BILLION habitable planets in the Milkway alone. And that's 1% of 1% of 1% (it goes on, but I dont like to repeat myself) of the planets out there. So even given your possible theory of 60 million planets conquered in 300 years, you'd need to really, REALLY ramp that up. And that's not going to happen by the year 30,000 by the best of times.
Imperium consists of about million worlds. That information is literally on the first pages of every edition of 40K. It is pretty futile to engage in arguments about fluff if you have no foggiest what the fluff actually entails.
Furthermore, you are also wrong about real physics again. Absolutely top estimate of planets in habitable zones of stars not hostile to like is 40 billion, and of course that does not account presence of water and other factors which affect the habitability of said planets.
OK guys seriously, knock it off. We don't even have a man on mars and you all are arguing about something 39,000 years in the future....that is fiction.
On topic: Why isn't the Space Wolves getting anything with this? I thought the warzone supplements had new rules for both armies featured?
Iuchiban: Thank you for the info! A couple questions if I may.
1) How expensive is the cannon for the Rubrics? Same price as for the terminators?
2) What kind of options does the Exalted Sorcerer have? We know you can bump ML up to 3, but do they have weapon options? Can they wear Terminator Armor?
Outside the Warlord Trait, is there any other way to prevent/reduce Deep Strike scatter within the book?
What models can take the Doom of the Seer staff?
Davor wrote: What is a sabe? At first I thought it was a spelling mistake and is suppose to be save, but I see it a few times. So is it suppose to be save or is it something else?
I guess it's either invul saves or saves in general
Roknar wrote: Also, how in the nine hells are you supposed to use that re-roll special rule when it require you to take a around of 2k+ points in every formation other than the tzangors? I didn't think it would be THAT hard to get. Even just 9 exalted sorcerers is almost 2k, not including the HW choice ^_-
I hope that's not a sign of...something.
Look again you only need regular sorcerers to get these formations so you can max out the war cabal for 1400 ish points and still have access Divination with the Occult Terminators Sorcerer.
Are the new Exalted Sorcerors required to generate one of their powers on the Discipline of Tzeentch table?
It seems strange to me that new War Coven formation would give you a boost to a BRB psychic discipline, but prevent you from rolling on it unless you're ML2+ (and even then, an ML3 Tzeentch sorceror is a worse Biomancer than a ML2 Librarian!)
But hey, it's Chaos, our worst enemy is ourselves :(
caelim wrote: Are the new Exalted Sorcerors required to generate one of their powers on the Discipline of Tzeentch table?
It seems strange to me that new War Coven formation would give you a boost to a BRB psychic discipline, but prevent you from rolling on it unless you're ML2+ (and even then, an ML3 Tzeentch sorceror is a worse Biomancer than a ML2 Librarian!)
But hey, it's Chaos, our worst enemy is ourselves :(
It's probably worth figuring out what has new potential rather than immediately complaining.
Siphon Magic has massive potential. Any WC1 power is essentially "free" and 2x Siphon will actually generate Warp Charge.
Conclave might be better Biomancers, so why not look outside Biomancy? I mean, you can always ally in an unmarked Cabal anyway.
OK I am totally making an army modeled after the seven samurai idea of a hand full of desperadoes. Ahriman and 9 Exalted sorcerors would be hillarious to field as an army. if you kept a few of them cheap, disc only and paired them with a mate I could see some serious psychic phases lol. Thats 32-37 warp charges a turn manifesting on 3+ Imagine ahriman spamming witch fires lol, 3 shrieks a turn, if you really wanted to win you could obviously just summon 10 units of horrors turn 1. My god, the more I think about it the more I think that formation might be broken. If they are all on discs and one guy casts shrouding they suddenly have a 2+ rerollable cover save..... So many insane combos.
I would imagine that, like most named characters, his wargear is built into his cost, which is 130 Meltabombs. Unless I missed where he has optional wargear.
It's probably worth figuring out what has new potential rather than immediately complaining.
Siphon Magic has massive potential. Any WC1 power is essentially "free" and 2x Siphon will actually generate Warp Charge.
Conclave might be better Biomancers, so why not look outside Biomancy? I mean, you can always ally in an unmarked Cabal anyway.
Sorry, I was just using Biomancy as an example. There are some great powers in most of the other disciplines we have access to.
But there are a lot of duds, and there's a HUGE difference between a psyker rolling 2 vs 3 powers, in terms of reliability. (with 3 psykers, you go from a 66% chance of getting a particular power, to 87.5%).
Paying 15 points to get a better Invulnerable save is nice. Being charged 15 points to be less reliable at your job in my army is... sad.
My point wasn't to complain already, it was to hope that Tzeench Sorcerors might actually be better than others, rather than "cool but restrictive"
I would imagine that, like most named characters, his wargear is built into his cost, which is 130 Meltabombs. Unless I missed where he has optional wargear.
I would imagine that, like most named characters, his wargear is built into his cost, which is 130 Meltabombs. Unless I missed where he has optional wargear.
I would imagine that, like most named characters, his wargear is built into his cost, which is 130 Meltabombs. Unless I missed where he has optional wargear.
I would simply rather not assume.
Are there any named characters in the game whose wargear isn't included in their points cost? That would be extremely strange.
It looks like positive stuff for my existing Thousand Sons and Ahriman by the look of it, bit of a kidney-blow for my existing terminators though (kitted out with power mauls / axes, fists and chainfists)
Does Ahriman happen to have any modification to spell casting? In particular, does he receive a spell familiar or similar to help mitigate perils (or is he still as prone to self destruction?)
I would imagine that, like most named characters, his wargear is built into his cost, which is 130 Meltabombs. Unless I missed where he has optional wargear.
I would imagine that, like most named characters, his wargear is built into his cost, which is 130 Meltabombs. Unless I missed where he has optional wargear.
I would simply rather not assume.
Are there any named characters in the game whose wargear isn't included in their points cost? That would be extremely strange.
The only one I can think of is Samael, and we KNOW Magnus isn't getting a Landspeeder option
What sucks about exalted sorcerers, Ahriman, and CSMDPs is that they have to waste one of their psychic choices on a tzeentch power. Unless the new supplement changes that??
Hey Iuchiban, thanks for sharing! I understand that at this point most people are mainly interested in the rules, but could you confirm whether the fluff summary found in this thread was accurate?
It's probably worth figuring out what has new potential rather than immediately complaining.
Siphon Magic has massive potential. Any WC1 power is essentially "free" and 2x Siphon will actually generate Warp Charge.
Conclave might be better Biomancers, so why not look outside Biomancy? I mean, you can always ally in an unmarked Cabal anyway.
Sorry, I was just using Biomancy as an example. There are some great powers in most of the other disciplines we have access to.
But there are a lot of duds, and there's a HUGE difference between a psyker rolling 2 vs 3 powers, in terms of reliability. (with 3 psykers, you go from a 66% chance of getting a particular power, to 87.5%).
Paying 15 points to get a better Invulnerable save is nice. Being charged 15 points to be less reliable at your job in my army is... sad.
My point wasn't to complain already, it was to hope that Tzeench Sorcerors might actually be better than others, rather than "cool but restrictive"
I really think the best Discipline for TS is Divination Ignores Cover and Twin Linked plus other good things.
Also do you really need to take 9 units in every formation to get a reroll of 1's?
From what has been said, it's not that you need to take "9 units" in every formation, but rather you have to take the maximum allotment of units that a formation can take.
So if a formation gives you the option of taking 1-3 Superduperguys, you need to take 3 Superduperguys in order to get the reroll of 1's for saving throws.
Also do you really need to take 9 units in every formation to get a reroll of 1's?
Yeah, each formation will tell you a range for number of units so if it says, for example, Sekhmet conclave core formation, 3-9 units of SOTermies if you have 9 you get that sweet re-roll. but War Cabal (other core) is less demanding so you'd need 3 exalted or regular sorcerers, 3 rubrics and 3 SOT instead of 1-2 for each. Looking at these as I build my army honestly reflect to what I would build anyway. I can't plop down cash for 9 boxes of SOT anytime soon but a goal to reach one day, War Cabal needs to be first for me in this case, and it makes sense. There's so much AP3 and psyker bad-assery in this army not worried one bit.
Man, I really like the looks of that War Cabal, but whoof, that's expensive, both in cash and points. Whoof. My store basically only plays 1850, so I guess I better get used to not being able to field anything else if I want that sweet formation bonus...
The current codex entry for Pink Horrors does not say they have access to Daemonology, and yet it is accepted that they can use it even without an FAQ, so why would an updated entry's lack of Daemonology be any different?
The BRB gives specific access to all psykers with few exceptions (no Malefic for GKs or Sanctic for Daemons, or at all for Nids).
Unless the new entries SPECIFICALLY say the Horrors (of any type) cannot access Malefic daemonology, they can use it. PERIOD
Or if it says they can ONLY access the Change Discipline, which we now know neither the Blue or Brimstone horrors entries are listed as such, so why would the Pinks entry be different?
Another possibility is if the Pink Horrors entry has access to Daemonology and Change (we haven't seen their entry yet, only the Blues & Brimstones)
That would make sense as otherwise, why ever buy Pinkies over Blues?
I'm going to guess RAI is they don't have access, but RAW they do, at least until 8th edition drops.
Anyone has a clue what are the "floating auxillary" of the war coven?
I mean, the units you can just take 1 of as an auxillary.
And if there a way to get both ahriman and a prince, while staying remotely sane in costs? seems like the only way to get princes in the war cover (hugely expensive if you want the reroll), and if you do then you gotta take the exiles for ahriman, and that thing clocks what? 700ish points? at minimum size before upgrades?
It seems 1ksons suffers the same issue as the cadian and ork detachments. they simply were not designed for the same scale most of us play.
In huge games (say, 3000 points) they become amazing, but in 1500-1850 range, they are very hard to pull off.
Zerosoul wrote: Iuchiban: Thank you for the info! A couple questions if I may.
1) How expensive is the cannon for the Rubrics? Same price as for the terminators?
2) What kind of options does the Exalted Sorcerer have? We know you can bump ML up to 3, but do they have weapon options? Can they wear Terminator Armor?
Sorry guys, but duty called ...
Going back to the book:
1) Cannon fo Rubrics is +25 points
2) Exalted sorcerers: 160 points, Lvl2, +25 Lvl3. Disc for +30 points. Once per game, in the shooting phase thay may unleash the power of the Silver Tower:Reach Unlimited S9, AP2, Heavy1, Lance Blast One use only. Note that this is NOT a power, just a shooting attack.
There are three new loci (I think that's the name of the Daemon Heralds upgrades, and again translations may be not accurate)
- Lesser Loci of Metamorphosis (+15): Bearer and all the models in his unit have the IWND special rule
- Mayor Loci of Scam (+20): Roll a D6. All attacks that have the same result as in the rolled D6, are considered to be a 1.
- Glorious Loci of Creation (+35): Everytime a Pink of this unit horror dies, 4 Blue Horrors are created. Everytime a blue Horror of this unit dies, 2 Brimstone Horrors are created.
Any reason other than the power why the exalted sorcerer is more expensive than a basic csm sorcerer 160 for a level 2 is allot! Some special gear or power?
Guyver 3 wrote: Any reason other than the power why the exalted sorcerer is more expensive than a basic csm sorcerer 160 for a level 2 is allot! Some special gear or power?
They have a Chaos Lord Profile (3 Wounds, 3 Attacks, etc ..), Mark of Tzeentch, 5++ (with the mark, 4++), Veterans of the Long War SR, ,,,,
The increased profile helps a lot, but man, they're pricey, and can't even hop into Terminator Armor or grab a spell familiar. Painful. That's kind of a hard sell over a regular Sorcerer, to me. The extra wound is highly relevant, of course, but the extra attack...Blech. And the gun is completely useless unless you're planning on putting him on a Disc, which isn't a BAD plan, of course, but then you either have to find him a ride or do without everything that makes the disc cool.
Yeah, I think I'll either skip the Exalted Sorcerer for a regular Sorcerer or just find the extra points and go with a Daemon Prince.
caelim wrote: Are the new Exalted Sorcerors required to generate one of their powers on the Discipline of Tzeentch table?
It seems strange to me that new War Coven formation would give you a boost to a BRB psychic discipline, but prevent you from rolling on it unless you're ML2+ (and even then, an ML3 Tzeentch sorceror is a worse Biomancer than a ML2 Librarian!)
But hey, it's Chaos, our worst enemy is ourselves :(
It's probably worth figuring out what has new potential rather than immediately complaining.
Siphon Magic has massive potential. Any WC1 power is essentially "free" and 2x Siphon will actually generate Warp Charge.
Conclave might be better Biomancers, so why not look outside Biomancy? I mean, you can always ally in an unmarked Cabal anyway.
It really hit me last night that the army really revolves around the power of the sorcerer so we need to utlize that and things like the power are a great example. I need to read up on it. Is it scale able? The higher the warpcharge the more siphoning? If so that could lead to some a lot of energy being thrown around.
With a sorcerer in just about all units and the ability to generate and extra spell makes them and ther units expensive though I love how this made up for with the Tzaangors. These guys are dirt cheap and plentiful with with decent stats for fodder and the ability to run and charge is huge!! I also play harlequins so the board control these guys are going to offer is great. Being able to fleet ans get a bonus if they charge 9 in or more is insane for 7 points a model if that is to be believed. sure you gotta take the beastmen formation to get that but what great fun!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also it seems like the Helm is an auto include for me.
zamerion wrote: Luchiban please, can you speak about the new warp table for daemon of tzeentch? (when use it) and something about daemon formations/decurion.
And has some horror access to daemonology?
Thanks a lot!
The Tzeentch Warp table can be used if your Warlord has the Daemon of Tzeentch SR and your primary detachment has been chosen from the Chaos Daemon Codex, Curse of the Wulfen book or Wrath of Magnus book.
2 - Choose at random one non-daemon Character. This chacarter suffers 1D3 Wounds withount saves of any kind. If slain, create a Chaos Spawn
3 - If any psiker manifest a power, the have to roll on the perils table with any double result
4 - Choose at random one Daemon of Tzeentch Character. Remove it from play. Return him to the battlefield via DS.
5 - All psikers manifest powers with 3+
6 - All flamer weapons gain the warpflame SR
7 - Each player may reroll up to 1D3 dice until end of turn. Each player rolls the D3 separetly.
8 - Psychic power cost is reduce by 1 (mínimum 1). If one psyker fails to manifest a power, automaticalli roll on the perils table.
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
10 - Via DS, deploy a unit of 10 Brimstone horrors
11 - Choose at random a non-Daemon of Tzeentch Character. Check LD. If failed, model is removed from play, replaced by a Herald of Tzeentch
12- Choose a Daemon of Tzeentch Character. Check Ld. If failed, model is removed from play. If passed, model is replaced by a Lord of Change.
Man I'm having the hardest time deciding in what to pick up first! I know I'm getting 2 boxes of rubicaez Ahriman, dice and the new paint from my local. I'm torn between getting Magnus, or a box of termies and exalted sorcs. Would get it all but limited only to about $300. >.< Pretty excited for this and can't wait to try the new rules in a Black Crusade detachment.
zamerion wrote: Luchiban please, can you speak about the new warp table for daemon of tzeentch? (when use it) and something about daemon formations/decurion.
And has some horror access to daemonology?
Thanks a lot!
The Tzeentch Warp table can be used if your Warlord has the Daemon of Tzeentch SR and your primary detachment has been chosen from the Chaos Daemon Codex, Curse of the Wulfen book or Wrath of Magnus book.
2 - Choose at random one non-daemon Character. This chacarter suffers 1D3 Wounds withount saves of any kind. If slain, create a Chaos Spawn
3 - If any psiker manifest a power, the have to roll on the perils table with any double result
4 - Choose at random one Daemon of Tzeentch Character. Remove it from play. Return him to the battlefield via DS.
5 - All psikers manifest powers with 3+
6 - All flamer weapons gain the warpflame SR
7 - Each player may reroll up to 1D3 dice until end of turn. Each player rolls the D3 separetly.
8 - Psychic power cost is reduce by 1 (mínimum 1). If one psyker fails to manifest a power, automaticalli roll on the perils table.
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
10 - Via DS, deploy a unit of 10 Brimstone horrors
11 - Choose at random a non-Daemon of Tzeentch Character. Check LD. If failed, model is removed from play, replaced by a Herald of Tzeentch
12- Choose a Daemon of Tzeentch Character. Check Ld. If failed, model is removed from play. If passed, model is replaced by a Lord of Change.
A classic example of Games Workshop rule design. Opposed to a creative or innovative way to represent the rapidly changing and mutating nature of Tzeentch, we have a random table which removes a great degree of the players agency and frustrates battle plans and stratagem - making many choices outright worthless. And worst of all, it is lazy.
Guyver 3 wrote: any info on the daemon formations? And tzeentch warpstorm table?
To add to this, does anyone know about Tzaangors? Are they just like tzeentch specific cultists like plague zombies are?
Guardsman stat line except WS/T 4 and 6++ and are NOT Daemon.
I heard you can take up to 30 and are about 7 points each. With 3 attacks on the charge their formation will be killer if you can afford the points. The ability to run and charge is awesome board control. Plus 1 to Str if they charge 9 in or more. Great manageable cannon fodder that will look great on the table. Great filler combat wise and thematically for the wizards and their golems.
Guyver 3 wrote: any info on the daemon formations? And tzeentch warpstorm table?
To add to this, does anyone know about Tzaangors? Are they just like tzeentch specific cultists like plague zombies are?
Guardsman stat line except WS/T 4 and 6++ and are NOT Daemon.
I heard you can take up to 30 and are about 7 points each. With 3 attacks on the charge their formation will be killer if you can afford the points. The ability to run and charge is awesome board control. Plus 1 to Str if they charge 9 in or more. Great manageable cannon fodder that will look great on the table. Great filler combat wise and thematically for the wizards and their golems.
Apparently the minimum is an exalted sorcerer and 3 units of tzaangors so not too expensive, max is an additional 6 units though for that rerollable 1 which might be good with that many guys but you're still rerolling for a 6 so not sure if it's really worth it.
Guyver 3 wrote: any info on the daemon formations? And tzeentch warpstorm table?
To add to this, does anyone know about Tzaangors? Are they just like tzeentch specific cultists like plague zombies are?
Guardsman stat line except WS/T 4 and 6++ and are NOT Daemon.
I heard you can take up to 30 and are about 7 points each. With 3 attacks on the charge their formation will be killer if you can afford the points. The ability to run and charge is awesome board control. Plus 1 to Str if they charge 9 in or more. Great manageable cannon fodder that will look great on the table. Great filler combat wise and thematically for the wizards and their golems.
Apparently the minimum is an exalted sorcerer and 3 units of tzaangors so not too expensive, max is an additional 6 units though for that rerollable 1 which might be good with that many guys but you're still rerolling for a 6 so not sure if it's really worth it.
In your example the rerollable save is just for the models in that formation correct?
If you take the Daemon Incursion Detachment at least you can add or subtract 1 from your roll on the table.
But would you use the Tzeentch warpstorm table if you had to? Personally I would be borderline not bothering with the new table.
No. there are to many result that apply to you and your opponent; both bad and good.
Actually that is a great reason to use it. The ability to go up or down would allow you to make the best use of the Tzeentch table
This actually works. If you have no non-daemon of tzeentch characters in your army, you're always within 1 shift up or down of a decent result, no matter what you roll. Not sure if it is possible to take the detachment for the +/-1 and have no non-daemon characters though.
If an opponents character is removed and replaced with a spawn/herald/lord of change, who controls the new model? Or when it says random non-DoT character does it not include your opponents models? If it is the tzeentch player who gets control of the newly placed model then I'd do this on the table:
Roll 2: you stick and get D3 free hits against an enemy character, possibly getting you a free spawn. 3: either drop down to 2 for free hits or, if you want to, go up to 4 for deep strike for one of your characters. 4: go up to 5 or stick. 5: Stick or drop to 4. 6: Drop down to 5 or go up to 7 (but that gives opponent re-rolls as well so relies on luck to get more re-rolls/hope their re-rolls go badly). 7: Stick or move up to 8. 8: Stick or drop to 7. 9: Drop for easier casting, raise for free brimstone horrors. 10: Stick or +1 if you have no non-daemon of tzeentch characters. 11: Stick for opportunity to kill enemy character and replace them with a herald. 12: Drop down to 11.
I know it's been mentioned, but the requirements to get the save reroll of 1s is very unfortunate. They might as well not even include it for most of the formations. It could have been a very cool fluffy bonus.
I was just thinking that the bonus of rerollable saves really makes the power armor near invulnerable.
Reroll 1s and fail on 2 should come with a high price tag. The formations seem to be designed to stand on their own with little support form outside units. Whether they will, we shall see.
Though I think that the army can be quite good with using what units you need of the formations and focusing on the sorcerers strengths.
after looking at the sprues last week, getting my WD mag on Saturday, and now seeing the design video on Warhammer TV today, i am even more excited about Magnus...
the close-ups of the render in the video are amazing!!!
he has so many little cool details on the armor, skin, and wings...
so awesome to be getting a massive Demon Primarch in plastic come on December!!!
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
Roll on this chart to see if you roll for every unit on the table to see if you roll an amount of hits to see if you can roll to wound with those hits to see if your opponent gets to roll armour saves on those hits.
Guyver 3 wrote: any info on the daemon formations? And tzeentch warpstorm table?
To add to this, does anyone know about Tzaangors? Are they just like tzeentch specific cultists like plague zombies are?
Guardsman stat line except WS/T 4 and 6++ and are NOT Daemon.
I heard you can take up to 30 and are about 7 points each. With 3 attacks on the charge their formation will be killer if you can afford the points. The ability to run and charge is awesome board control. Plus 1 to Str if they charge 9 in or more. Great manageable cannon fodder that will look great on the table. Great filler combat wise and thematically for the wizards and their golems.
Apparently the minimum is an exalted sorcerer and 3 units of tzaangors so not too expensive, max is an additional 6 units though for that rerollable 1 which might be good with that many guys but you're still rerolling for a 6 so not sure if it's really worth it.
In your example the rerollable save is just for the models in that formation correct?
Yes, it's of corse worth much more for the other units rerolling 1s on 3+/3++ or even 2+ on termites but then you're sinking an insane amount of points.
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
Roll on this chart to see if you roll for every unit on the table to see if you roll an amount of hits to see if you can roll to wound with those hits to see if your opponent gets to roll armour saves on those hits.
Jesus 40K is a mess.
Don't forget to roll for Warpflame if they take any wounds!
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
Roll on this chart to see if you roll for every unit on the table to see if you roll an amount of hits to see if you can roll to wound with those hits to see if your opponent gets to roll armour saves on those hits.
Jesus 40K is a mess.
Same thing happens in the Chaos Daemons codex already, except there are 2 results that do that (if you run monogod or duogod lists).
Then there are 2 results where you roll for units on the table to see if they get hit by a blast that then has to roll for scatter, then to wound and then saves.
Skerr wrote: I was just thinking that the bonus of rerollable saves really makes the power armor near invulnerable.
Reroll 1s and fail on 2 should come with a high price tag. The formations seem to be designed to stand on their own with little support form outside units. Whether they will, we shall see.
Though I think that the army can be quite good with using what units you need of the formations and focusing on the sorcerers strengths.
To be fair getting SOT that reroll 1s for failed saves will basically let you negate any troops choices they bring since it will take a wall of fire to bring down even 1 terminator.
Guyver 3 wrote: any info on the daemon formations? And tzeentch warpstorm table?
To add to this, does anyone know about Tzaangors? Are they just like tzeentch specific cultists like plague zombies are?
Guardsman stat line except WS/T 4 and 6++ and are NOT Daemon.
I heard you can take up to 30 and are about 7 points each. With 3 attacks on the charge their formation will be killer if you can afford the points. The ability to run and charge is awesome board control. Plus 1 to Str if they charge 9 in or more. Great manageable cannon fodder that will look great on the table. Great filler combat wise and thematically for the wizards and their golems.
Apparently the minimum is an exalted sorcerer and 3 units of tzaangors so not too expensive, max is an additional 6 units though for that rerollable 1 which might be good with that many guys but you're still rerolling for a 6 so not sure if it's really worth it.
In your example the rerollable save is just for the models in that formation correct?
Yes but its available for every formation, and with that particular formation I believe you can take 0-6 Tzzangors or Spawn
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
Roll on this chart to see if you roll for every unit on the table to see if you roll an amount of hits to see if you can roll to wound with those hits to see if your opponent gets to roll armour saves on those hits to see if he gets to roll for feel no pain to see you get to roll it will not die at the end of yours and to roll for warpflame and repeat the whole thing again.
Skerr wrote: I was just thinking that the bonus of rerollable saves really makes the power armor near invulnerable.
Reroll 1s and fail on 2 should come with a high price tag. The formations seem to be designed to stand on their own with little support form outside units. Whether they will, we shall see.
Though I think that the army can be quite good with using what units you need of the formations and focusing on the sorcerers strengths.
To be fair getting SOT that reroll 1s for failed saves will basically let you negate any troops choices they bring since it will take a wall of fire to bring down even 1 terminator.
As I was saying maybe rerollable 1s is a bit op and if you want it its fair to pay out the nose for it.
Guyver 3 wrote: any info on the daemon formations? And tzeentch warpstorm table?
To add to this, does anyone know about Tzaangors? Are they just like tzeentch specific cultists like plague zombies are?
Guardsman stat line except WS/T 4 and 6++ and are NOT Daemon.
I heard you can take up to 30 and are about 7 points each. With 3 attacks on the charge their formation will be killer if you can afford the points. The ability to run and charge is awesome board control. Plus 1 to Str if they charge 9 in or more. Great manageable cannon fodder that will look great on the table. Great filler combat wise and thematically for the wizards and their golems.
Apparently the minimum is an exalted sorcerer and 3 units of tzaangors so not too expensive, max is an additional 6 units though for that rerollable 1 which might be good with that many guys but you're still rerolling for a 6 so not sure if it's really worth it.
In your example the rerollable save is just for the models in that formation correct?
Yes but its available for every formation, and with that particular formation I believe you can take 0-6 Tzzangors or Spawn
Right, saw that this formation still looks fun.
Personally the GC looks tight, allows for some decent upgades and additions after prerequisites are taken and I like being able to cast an extra power.
Though I thought cabal also let you reroll 1s to hit until your next psychic phase if you cast in the current round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You meaning your unit.
Skerr wrote: Right, saw that this formation still looks fun.
Personally the GC looks tight, allows for some decent upgrades and additions after prerequisites are taken and I like being able to cast an extra power.
Though I thought cabal also let you reroll 1s to hit until your next psychic phase if you cast in the current round.
I would agree, that there is wiggle room there. As for the rerolling 1s I have seen two different versions of this, the first being "you reroll 1s with with attacks" and "you reroll 1s for psychic attacks" so i'm not sure there.
Its not just fun its down right good. Since you can easily take 4 units of Tzzangors and 4 units of spawn and use "Telekine Dome" to get a 3++ on everything.
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
Roll on this chart to see if you roll for every unit on the table to see if you roll an amount of hits to see if you can roll to wound with those hits to see if your opponent gets to roll armour saves on those hits to see if he gets to roll for feel no pain to see you get to roll it will not die at the end of yours and to roll for warpflame and repeat the whole thing again.
Jesus 40K is a mess.
Emphasised text mine.
My point stands.
I hope 8th nukes everything for a complete back-to-basics reset.
Skerr wrote: I was just thinking that the bonus of rerollable saves really makes the power armor near invulnerable.
Reroll 1s and fail on 2 should come with a high price tag. The formations seem to be designed to stand on their own with little support form outside units. Whether they will, we shall see.
Though I think that the army can be quite good with using what units you need of the formations and focusing on the sorcerers strengths.
To be fair getting SOT that reroll 1s for failed saves will basically let you negate any troops choices they bring since it will take a wall of fire to bring down even 1 terminator.
As I was saying maybe rerollable 1s is a bit op and if you want it its fair to pay out the nose for it.
Guyver 3 wrote: any info on the daemon formations? And tzeentch warpstorm table?
To add to this, does anyone know about Tzaangors? Are they just like tzeentch specific cultists like plague zombies are?
Guardsman stat line except WS/T 4 and 6++ and are NOT Daemon.
I heard you can take up to 30 and are about 7 points each. With 3 attacks on the charge their formation will be killer if you can afford the points. The ability to run and charge is awesome board control. Plus 1 to Str if they charge 9 in or more. Great manageable cannon fodder that will look great on the table. Great filler combat wise and thematically for the wizards and their golems.
Apparently the minimum is an exalted sorcerer and 3 units of tzaangors so not too expensive, max is an additional 6 units though for that rerollable 1 which might be good with that many guys but you're still rerolling for a 6 so not sure if it's really worth it.
In your example the rerollable save is just for the models in that formation correct?
Yes but its available for every formation, and with that particular formation I believe you can take 0-6 Tzzangors or Spawn
Right, saw that this formation still looks fun.
Personally the GC looks tight, allows for some decent upgades and additions after prerequisites are taken and I like being able to cast an extra power.
Though I thought cabal also let you reroll 1s to hit until your next psychic phase if you cast in the current round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You meaning your unit.
That's right, Cabal gains Oracular Guidance: If a psyker from war cabal successfully manifests a psyker power, the psyker and any war cabal unit he is part of or has joined, can reroll failed to-hit rolls of 1 until the start of your next psychic phase.
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
Roll on this chart to see if you roll for every unit on the table to see if you roll an amount of hits to see if you can roll to wound with those hits to see if your opponent gets to roll armour saves on those hits.
Jesus 40K is a mess.
And if my unit gets hit and fails any saves I get to roll to see what psychic power my new unit that gets created generates!
Skerr wrote: I was just thinking that the bonus of rerollable saves really makes the power armor near invulnerable.
Reroll 1s and fail on 2 should come with a high price tag. The formations seem to be designed to stand on their own with little support form outside units. Whether they will, we shall see.
Though I think that the army can be quite good with using what units you need of the formations and focusing on the sorcerers strengths.
To be fair getting SOT that reroll 1s for failed saves will basically let you negate any troops choices they bring since it will take a wall of fire to bring down even 1 terminator.
As I was saying maybe rerollable 1s is a bit op and if you want it its fair to pay out the nose for it.
Guyver 3 wrote: any info on the daemon formations? And tzeentch warpstorm table?
To add to this, does anyone know about Tzaangors? Are they just like tzeentch specific cultists like plague zombies are?
Guardsman stat line except WS/T 4 and 6++ and are NOT Daemon.
I heard you can take up to 30 and are about 7 points each. With 3 attacks on the charge their formation will be killer if you can afford the points. The ability to run and charge is awesome board control. Plus 1 to Str if they charge 9 in or more. Great manageable cannon fodder that will look great on the table. Great filler combat wise and thematically for the wizards and their golems.
Apparently the minimum is an exalted sorcerer and 3 units of tzaangors so not too expensive, max is an additional 6 units though for that rerollable 1 which might be good with that many guys but you're still rerolling for a 6 so not sure if it's really worth it.
In your example the rerollable save is just for the models in that formation correct?
Yes but its available for every formation, and with that particular formation I believe you can take 0-6 Tzzangors or Spawn
Right, saw that this formation still looks fun.
Personally the GC looks tight, allows for some decent upgades and additions after prerequisites are taken and I like being able to cast an extra power.
Though I thought cabal also let you reroll 1s to hit until your next psychic phase if you cast in the current round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You meaning your unit.
That's right, Cabal gains Oracular Guidance: If a psyker from war cabal successfully manifests a psyker power, the psyker and any war cabal unit he is part of or has joined, can reroll failed to-hit rolls of 1 until the start of your next psychic phase.
That's just awesome. Along with the reroll of perils and warlord trait the WC is the way I am going to go.
Skerr wrote: That's just awesome. Along with the reroll of perils and warlord trait the WC is the way I am going to go.
I will second that motion. With rerolls of 1 on all attacks and saves, all you need to do is focus on beefing the units up a bit and you will have a very formidable force.
What I'm thinking right now is max everything out but have 3 regular sorcerers in termi armor and put them in front of the Thousand Sons. A bit expensive but basically gives the unit a giant shield for small arms fire.
Does anyone know if Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors generate warp charges like pink horrors? For example, do 11 Blue or Brimstones horrors give you 2 WC?
997Turbo wrote: Does anyone know if Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors generate warp charges like pink horrors? For example, do 11 Blue or Brimstones horrors give you 2 WC?
Skerr wrote: I was just thinking that the bonus of rerollable saves really makes the power armor near invulnerable.
Reroll 1s and fail on 2 should come with a high price tag. The formations seem to be designed to stand on their own with little support form outside units. Whether they will, we shall see.
Though I think that the army can be quite good with using what units you need of the formations and focusing on the sorcerers strengths.
To be fair getting SOT that reroll 1s for failed saves will basically let you negate any troops choices they bring since it will take a wall of fire to bring down even 1 terminator.
As I was saying maybe rerollable 1s is a bit op and if you want it its fair to pay out the nose for it.
Guyver 3 wrote: any info on the daemon formations? And tzeentch warpstorm table?
To add to this, does anyone know about Tzaangors? Are they just like tzeentch specific cultists like plague zombies are?
Guardsman stat line except WS/T 4 and 6++ and are NOT Daemon.
I heard you can take up to 30 and are about 7 points each. With 3 attacks on the charge their formation will be killer if you can afford the points. The ability to run and charge is awesome board control. Plus 1 to Str if they charge 9 in or more. Great manageable cannon fodder that will look great on the table. Great filler combat wise and thematically for the wizards and their golems.
Apparently the minimum is an exalted sorcerer and 3 units of tzaangors so not too expensive, max is an additional 6 units though for that rerollable 1 which might be good with that many guys but you're still rerolling for a 6 so not sure if it's really worth it.
In your example the rerollable save is just for the models in that formation correct?
Yes but its available for every formation, and with that particular formation I believe you can take 0-6 Tzzangors or Spawn
Right, saw that this formation still looks fun.
Personally the GC looks tight, allows for some decent upgades and additions after prerequisites are taken and I like being able to cast an extra power.
Though I thought cabal also let you reroll 1s to hit until your next psychic phase if you cast in the current round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You meaning your unit.
That's right, Cabal gains Oracular Guidance: If a psyker from war cabal successfully manifests a psyker power, the psyker and any war cabal unit he is part of or has joined, can reroll failed to-hit rolls of 1 until the start of your next psychic phase.
That's just awesome. Along with the reroll of perils and warlord trait the WC is the way I am going to go.
But wait, don't forget every psyker in the Grand Coven--all your formations in primary detachment with psykers (ya know, about all)--psykers can manifest one more power. so 2-->3, Magnus 5-->6
Automatically Appended Next Post:
997Turbo wrote: Does anyone know if Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors generate warp charges like pink horrors? For example, do 11 Blue or Brimstones horrors give you 2 WC?
I thought a long time about how to make a fun, good list out of the new Wrath of Magnus Thousand Sons rules by using Traitor's Hate to circumvent the overpriced units to create a more interesting deathstar. You might see some neat combos using non-Fenris formations eventually. Here is my 1850 Hexfleet "Thousand Hates" list:
Detachment 1: Black Crusade Decurion
++Chaos Warband (all objective secured, hatred: imperium, free VotLW, +1 to invul if affected by a blessing)
-Chaos Lord, terminator armor, astral grimoire, combi-melta, chain fist, mark of tzeentch (joins terminators, makes unit fearless, moves his terminator unit 12" over terrain, rolls twice on boon table each turn)
-6x Chaos Terminators, mark of tzeentch, 2 chainfists, 2 power weapons, 2 power axes
-6x Chaos Space marines, mark of tzeentch
-6x Chaos Space marines, mark of tzeentch
-5x Warp Talons, mark of tzeentch
-1x Helbrute, 2 powerfists
++Heldrake Terror Pack
-2x Heldrakes, baleflamers (-1 Ld on enemies for telepathy spells and Doom of the Ser attacks, extra vector strikes on enemy units debuffed by telepathy spells)
Detachment 2: War Coven (cast telepathy on 3+)
-Chaos Sorcerer, psyker level 3, terminator armor, doom of the ser (badass daemon weapon), mark of tzeentch, spell familiar (join terminator unit, wreck anything non-vehicle in melee, roll sinisterum for re-roll all saves on unit or +2 I/A/T/S on self)
-Chaos Sorcerer, psyker level 3, terminator armor, force axe, mark of tzeentch, spell familiar, athenean scrolls (join terminator unit, cast invisibility on terminator unit on 4 dice with re-roll, succeed on 3+, if ANY two dice are the same the opponent cannot deny)
-Chaos Sorcerer, psyker level 3, jump pack, force axe, mark of tzeentch, spell familiar (join warp talon unit, cast force for 3++ on unit, throw psychic scream on a 3+)
-Chaos Sorcerer, psyker level 1, force axe, mark of tzeentch (sit in back with a chaos space marine unit, psychic scream anything that gets close)
There's a unit of 8 Tzeentch Terminators (including the characters) moving 12" over terrain, with a 2+/3++, possibly invisible and/or re-rolling armor saves, packing lots of chainfists and power weapons and a daemon weapon that will deal instant death wounds to wraithknights and deathstars. Psychic abilities and Heldrakes kill FMCs. Heldrakes and warp talons kill anything not in 2+ armor.
Does anyone know if we will get any KDK style mixing of daemon and non-daemon units? (i.e. no daemonic instability when taken in a thousand sons detachment)
mrhappyface wrote: Does anyone know if we will get any KDK style mixing of daemon and non-daemon units? (i.e. no daemonic instability when taken in a thousand sons detachment)
From what I have seen, Pink and Blue Horrors, they have daemonic instability not sure about anything else.
mrhappyface wrote: Does anyone know if we will get any KDK style mixing of daemon and non-daemon units? (i.e. no daemonic instability when taken in a thousand sons detachment)
From what I have seen, Pink and Blue Horrors, they have daemonic instability not sure about anything else.
I guess that's fair given the broken combinations you could make from a TDK list. :/
mrhappyface wrote: Does anyone know if we will get any KDK style mixing of daemon and non-daemon units? (i.e. no daemonic instability when taken in a thousand sons detachment)
From what I have seen, Pink and Blue Horrors, they have daemonic instability not sure about anything else.
I guess that's fair given the broken combinations you could make from a TDK list. :/
You can still get some broken stuff the Hearld formation that gets you 1 extra warp charge seems amazing since your getting 2 warp charges for 35 points stick them in a min unit of pink horrors and you have a scary good warp charge battery.
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
Roll on this chart to see if you roll for every unit on the table to see if you roll an amount of hits to see if you can roll to wound with those hits to see if your opponent gets to roll armour saves on those hits.
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
Roll on this chart to see if you roll for every unit on the table to see if you roll an amount of hits to see if you can roll to wound with those hits to see if your opponent gets to roll armour saves on those hits.
Jesus 40K is a mess.
Yeah I cringed at this one. Horrible.
As much as I like the direction the company is taking 40k is kind of a hot mess right now for sure. Played a game of 40k with someone who has been out since 2001 and they just looked baffled at all the stuff we had to roll for constantly and how many rules and rules exceptions we had to keep consulting and cross referencing. While I think some things in AoS were taken a bit far they are closer with that system than they are with 40k in my opinion. Definitely hoping for a similar but less drastic simplification in 8th.
The Tzeentch Warp table can be used if your Warlord has the Daemon of Tzeentch SR and your primary detachment has been chosen from the Chaos Daemon Codex, Curse of the Wulfen book or Wrath of Magnus book.
Spoiler:
2 - Choose at random one non-daemon Character. This chacarter suffers 1D3 Wounds withount saves of any kind. If slain, create a Chaos Spawn
3 - If any psiker manifest a power, the have to roll on the perils table with any double result
4 - Choose at random one Daemon of Tzeentch Character. Remove it from play. Return him to the battlefield via DS.
5 - All psikers manifest powers with 3+
6 - All flamer weapons gain the warpflame SR
7 - Each player may reroll up to 1D3 dice until end of turn. Each player rolls the D3 separetly.
8 - Psychic power cost is reduce by 1 (mínimum 1). If one psyker fails to manifest a power, automaticalli roll on the perils table.
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
10 - Via DS, deploy a unit of 10 Brimstone horrors
11 - Choose at random a non-Daemon of Tzeentch Character. Check LD. If failed, model is removed from play, replaced by a Herald of Tzeentch
12- Choose a Daemon of Tzeentch Character. Check Ld. If failed, model is removed from play. If passed, model is replaced by a Lord of Change.
9 - Roll a D6 for every unit on the battlefield. With a result of 1 or 2, D6 hits, S4, AP4, Warpflames
Roll on this chart to see if you roll for every unit on the table to see if you roll an amount of hits to see if you can roll to wound with those hits to see if your opponent gets to roll armour saves on those hits.
Jesus 40K is a mess.
Yeah I cringed at this one. Horrible.
As much as I like the direction the company is taking 40k is kind of a hot mess right now for sure. Played a game of 40k with someone who has been out since 2001 and they just looked baffled at all the stuff we had to roll for constantly and how many rules and rules exceptions we had to keep consulting and cross referencing. While I think some things in AoS were taken a bit far they are closer with that system than they are with 40k in my opinion. Definitely hoping for a similar but less drastic simplification in 8th.
Why AoS? Why not 3rd edition, with the knowledge of what was wrong back then? Why AoS must be even in the radar for 40k?
Virules wrote: I thought a long time about how to make a fun, good list out of the new Wrath of Magnus Thousand Sons rules by using Traitor's Hate to circumvent the overpriced units to create a more interesting deathstar. You might see some neat combos using non-Fenris formations eventually. Here is my 1850 Hexfleet "Thousand Hates" list:
Detachment 1: Black Crusade Decurion
++Chaos Warband (all objective secured, hatred: imperium, free VotLW, +1 to invul if affected by a blessing)
-Chaos Lord, terminator armor, astral grimoire, combi-melta, chain fist, mark of tzeentch (joins terminators, makes unit fearless, moves his terminator unit 12" over terrain, rolls twice on boon table each turn)
-6x Chaos Terminators, mark of tzeentch, 2 chainfists, 2 power weapons, 2 power axes
-6x Chaos Space marines, mark of tzeentch
-6x Chaos Space marines, mark of tzeentch
-5x Warp Talons, mark of tzeentch
-1x Helbrute, 2 powerfists
++Heldrake Terror Pack
-2x Heldrakes, baleflamers (-1 Ld on enemies for telepathy spells and Doom of the Ser attacks, extra vector strikes on enemy units debuffed by telepathy spells)
Detachment 2: War Coven (cast telepathy on 3+)
-Chaos Sorcerer, psyker level 3, terminator armor, doom of the ser (badass daemon weapon), mark of tzeentch, spell familiar (join terminator unit, wreck anything non-vehicle in melee, roll sinisterum for re-roll all saves on unit or +2 I/A/T/S on self)
-Chaos Sorcerer, psyker level 3, terminator armor, force axe, mark of tzeentch, spell familiar, athenean scrolls (join terminator unit, cast invisibility on terminator unit on 4 dice with re-roll, succeed on 3+, if ANY two dice are the same the opponent cannot deny)
-Chaos Sorcerer, psyker level 3, jump pack, force axe, mark of tzeentch, spell familiar (join warp talon unit, cast force for 3++ on unit, throw psychic scream on a 3+)
-Chaos Sorcerer, psyker level 1, force axe, mark of tzeentch (sit in back with a chaos space marine unit, psychic scream anything that gets close)
There's a unit of 8 Tzeentch Terminators (including the characters) moving 12" over terrain, with a 2+/3++, possibly invisible and/or re-rolling armor saves, packing lots of chainfists and power weapons and a daemon weapon that will deal instant death wounds to wraithknights and deathstars. Psychic abilities and Heldrakes kill FMCs. Heldrakes and warp talons kill anything not in 2+ armor.
Nice man!
So from if I take a Grand Coven and work in a formation of 3 vindicators with a warpsmith, give the warpsmith Aura of Dark Glory and Mark of Tzeentch for 30 points, VOTLW for free and a psycher casts Prescience on him (as an example) will he count as getting the -1 invuln for a blessing? just curious.
They'll use whatever rules push the most supplemental products, such as as books, dice, psychic cards, etc. That's all that matters in the current ruleset.
nintura wrote: If the rumor that scatter die will be removed in 8th is true, it's quite possible you'll get your wish.
I haven't heard that one. Will Drop Pods and other deep strikers just land where you put them? And blasts? And ordinance barrages?
IG will armored companies are back, baby! You heard it here first!
Pure speculation on my part, but in 4th ed, you just rolled to hit and placed the blast I could see that happening again. For Deep Strikers, I would imagine you just roll on a modified mishap table: 1=dead, 2=back into reserves, 3+ you land where you want. So high risk vs high reward
As for the Tsons, it is sad that they will not be able to join Daemon units, but the the abuses would be much worse than anything KDK could do. So it's probably for the best Speaking of abuses: I have started repainting half of my Pink Horrors blue. I think the best way to do Pink/Blue horrors is to make half of them mostly Pink with some blue, and the other half mostly Blue with some Pink. that way you'd only need as many models as you need Blue Horrors. For example: Lets say I start with 10 Pinks. normally that would mean I would also need 20 Blues, but with the paint scheme above, I only need 10 Blues as I can reuse the slain Pinks. So those 10 Pinks suffer 3 casualties, creating a unit of 6 Blues. I would use 3 Blues and the 3 slain Pinks to make the new unit, ensuring that the mostly blue models create a "divide" between the units before they move apart. So instead of needing 10 Pinks and 20 Blues, I only need 10 & 10 as I will reuse the Pinks mixed in with the Blues
The Brimstone horrors are another matter, but luckily they are only a 1:1 ration of models
icon of flame
All boltguns, combi bolers, heavy bolters, bolt pisols and inferno weapons carried by models with Mark of Tz in unit equipped with icon of flame gain soul blaze. (page 26)
VeteranNoob wrote: icon of flame
All boltguns, combi bolers, heavy bolters, bolt pisols and inferno weapons carried by models with Mark of Tz in unit equipped with icon of flame gain soul blaze. (page 26)
Can you clarify if the flamers have Soulblaze as an auto include. Frontline Gaming seemed to indicate that.
Also is there any adverse table that flamers have to roll in vs someones toughness that might increase or give them FnP? I read that on another forum and hoped that our flamers would not be subject to that.
I haven't seen a screenshot of the Brimstone horrors, but I'm assuming they're S/T 1, 2W.
So assuming you take a standard unit of 11 horrors for 99 points, plus a herald with the double splits thing...
11 horrors => 44 blue horrors => 88 brimstone horrors. 143 wounds (231 if you're facing Dark Eldar who can't ID T1) and up to 44 warp charge... for 99 points.
Potential downside -> giving up kill points. Upsides -> so so many.
Skerr wrote: If rubric marines count as troops what does Ahriman ability do, allow rubric termies to be troops as well?
If not it seems redundant.
Rubric marines are only troops in a thousand sons detachment. Otherwise they are still elites.
Arhiman (and a tzeentch marked sorcerer warlord) makes them troops in any detachment
the bearer needs to be in the unit for the extra splitting so 11 pink to 44 blue to 44 brimstone or 11 pink into 22 blue into 88 brimstone
Via frontlinegaming.org:
Lord of Flux: Enemy units within 12″ of your Warlord treat all terrain, even open ground, as difficult terrain. Additionally, any enemy units that run, trubo-boost, move flat out or charge within that radius must take dangerous terrain tests.
Magnus gets this automagically. So he's a flying 12" terrain feature that pew-pews everything in the psycic phase! Put him near some vulnerable units for the dangerous terrain test since Tsons cant overwatch.
BomBomHotdog wrote: the bearer needs to be in the unit for the extra splitting so 11 pink to 44 blue to 44 brimstone or 11 pink into 22 blue into 88 brimstone
.
With the formation of wulfen (9 horrors or flamers or exalted flamers) the focus is to all units in 12 ums,
Skerr wrote: If rubric marines count as troops what does Ahriman ability do, allow rubric termies to be troops as well?
If not it seems redundant.
Rubric marines are only troops in a thousand sons detachment. Otherwise they are still elites.
Arhiman (and a tzeentch marked sorcerer warlord) makes them troops in any detachment
Am I correct in understanding that the only formation including Rubric marines is the War Cabal core choice including:
War cabal:
1 Ahriman, Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer
1-3 Rubric Marines
1-3 S O Termies
1-3 Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer
If this is the case then there's really no reason in having more than 3 units of Rubrics if you're aiming for the Grand Coven FBD, and want to be able to get the reroll saves of 1 on your Rubrics (and others)?
VeteranNoob wrote: icon of flame
All boltguns, combi bolers, heavy bolters, bolt pisols and inferno weapons carried by models with Mark of Tz in unit equipped with icon of flame gain soul blaze. (page 26)
Can you clarify if the flamers have Soulblaze as an auto include. Frontline Gaming seemed to indicate that.
Also is there any adverse table that flamers have to roll in vs someones toughness that might increase or give them FnP? I read that on another forum and hoped that our flamers would not be subject to that.
Inferno/bolt weapons have no additional special rules unless the icon of flame is in the unit which then grants them soul blaze. Warpflame weapons (pistol, flamer & heavy flamer) come with warp flame sp. rule. If a unit suffered one or more unsaved wounds from any attack with warp flame the phase they must take a toughness test. If failed immediately suffers D3 wounds, no armor or cover saves allowed. If test is passed then unit gains 6+ FnP rest of game. or improves existing FnP...for Chaos is fickle.
VeteranNoob, What is the exact wording on the formation benefits for the formation with Kairos Fateweaver and 1-3 Lords of Change?
is it generic "models in this formation reroll" or is it a specific "the lords of change in this formation reroll"
Trasvi wrote: Blue Horrors are 1-10 = 1 WC, 11-20 = 2 WC.
I haven't seen a screenshot of the Brimstone horrors, but I'm assuming they're S/T 1, 2W.
So assuming you take a standard unit of 11 horrors for 99 points, plus a herald with the double splits thing... 11 horrors => 44 blue horrors => 88 brimstone horrors. 143 wounds (231 if you're facing Dark Eldar who can't ID T1) and up to 44 warp charge... for 99 points.
Potential downside -> giving up kill points. Upsides -> so so many.
A couple issue with the math here. It's hard to judge how many WCs you can get because models that are Split MUST join a unit that is within 6" unless a unit is not in range, then and only then can you make a new unit. So at most, a unit of 11 horrors would only make 1 extra unit per turn, since they cannot move away unit their movement phase or with clever removing of casualties (which the attacking player has more control over anyway) You have to "split" them over multiple turns in order to make that many new units. Also, You can't have all the WC at once. The 2WC from the original 11 Horrors goes away once the unit dies
The best case scenario for the Daemon play in the first turn is to have 3 Pinkes get killed while in a unit with the Loci, creating 12 Blues. Now they have 1WC from the remaining 8 Pinks and 2WC from the new unit of 12 Blues. That is only 1 more than they started with. Hardly game breaking. If you manage to kill a lot of Pinkies, than you make a single large unit of Blue. If you kill ALL the Pink in that turn, the unit of 22 Blues only generates 2 WC, just like the staring 11 Pinks
Even Killing Pinks in multiple phases will typically only creates 1 unit of Blues. For Example: You use Psychic Shriek to kill some, a new unit is made within 6". In your shooting phase you kill some more Pinks. Guess what? the unit of Blues you created before is still within 6", so new models add to that unit. Now you assault the Pinks. Unless the Daemon player can remove casualties in a way that makes the Pink & Blue units more than 6" away, they won't be able to create a new unit until YOUR new turn (with some exceptions like perils, dangerous terrain, etc).
The Split rule is pretty amazing, but it is not possible to make 90 pts unit into 250pts worth of units in the same turn, nor is it likely to produce all the Warp Charge, all the time. At best, the Daemon player will have about 2-4 WC being produced for the "same" 90pt investment at any given turn. Not 44
Red_Drake wrote: VeteranNoob, What is the exact wording on the formation benefits for the formation with Kairos Fateweaver and 1-3 Lords of Change?
is it generic "models in this formation reroll" or is it a specific "the lords of change in this formation reroll"
Kairos and the 1-3 LoC from this formation can reroll any rolls of 1 when making psychic tests, to hi or to wound rolls. Also, while all the models from this formation are on the battlefield you can choose to reroll any attempt to seize the initiative and any reserve rolls.
note: could see it both ways but I think the last rule is for the original number of LoC you took in the formation to all still be alive. So 1-3 LoC.
Still hoping one of the lucky folks who's got the book can let us know if the Tzaangors can be equipped with different weapons within the same unit, or if they all have to be identically equipped. I'm hoping I can mix and match!
angryboy2k wrote: Still hoping one of the lucky folks who's got the book can let us know if the Tzaangors can be equipped with different weapons within the same unit, or if they all have to be identically equipped. I'm hoping I can mix and match!
Thanks!
Any Tzaangor may replace both close combat weapons for autopistol and chainsword at 1pt/model.
angryboy2k wrote: Still hoping one of the lucky folks who's got the book can let us know if the Tzaangors can be equipped with different weapons within the same unit, or if they all have to be identically equipped. I'm hoping I can mix and match!
Thanks!
Any Tzaangor may replace both close combat weapons for autopistol and chainsword at 1pt/model.
Thanks, VeteranNoob! That's perfect! That means I can use some of the autopistols from the box to mod my Silver Tower Tzaangors, while keeping CC weapons for half the unit, masking the fact they're repeated poses.
So according the the wording on the Split rule, if you kill a unit of pink horrors in one go, they don't split, as there is no unit to place within 6" of at the end of the phase.
Special exception is given to RULES that completely remove the unit (assuming sweeping advance and posession, and perils result 1 fall under this), but not if the unit is entirely removed for any other reason
Additionally, any horrors killed BEFORE the point that the unit is removed entirely dont split as well, for the same reason.
If you kill all but one model in assault and they roll 12 on their instability test, you only get 2 blue horrors (as there was one model in the unit when the unit was removed) and the unit no longer exists to place the other blue horrors near to.
Does this mean the way to avoid the bs splitting is to kill the entire unit in one go? the OPPOSITE of the usual tactic which is "kill 1 model to drop them down 1 warp charge"
and amusingly, if they weren't immune to psychology, they would split when they ran off the board edge or were sweeping advanced
Red_Drake wrote: So according the the wording on the Split rule, if you kill a unit of pink horrors in one go, they don't split, as there is no unit to place within 6" of at the end of the phase.
Special exception is given to RULES that completely remove the unit (assuming sweeping advance and posession, and perils result 1 fall under this), but not if the unit is entirely removed for any other reason
I had this thought initially, but then I remembered that everything you do in 40K is governed by a "rule". So failing their saves and being removed as casualties is a "rule", though not a "special rule" as defined by the BRB. But the Split rule doesn't say "special rule", just "rule". If the Split rule said "special rule" you would be right.
However it doesn't so it appears that the only way to stop splitting is to cause the unit to fail an Instability test, specifically a failure that removes the whole unit (either double 6s or rolling high enough to kill every model left in the unit). All other "rules" will still allow them to split
VeteranNoob wrote: icon of flame
All boltguns, combi bolers, heavy bolters, bolt pisols and inferno weapons carried by models with Mark of Tz in unit equipped with icon of flame gain soul blaze. (page 26)
Can you clarify if the flamers have Soulblaze as an auto include. Frontline Gaming seemed to indicate that.
Also is there any adverse table that flamers have to roll in vs someones toughness that might increase or give them FnP? I read that on another forum and hoped that our flamers would not be subject to that.
Inferno/bolt weapons have no additional special rules unless the icon of flame is in the unit which then grants them soul blaze. Warpflame weapons (pistol, flamer & heavy flamer) come with warp flame sp. rule. If a unit suffered one or more unsaved wounds from any attack with warp flame the phase they must take a toughness test. If failed immediately suffers D3 wounds, no armor or cover saves allowed. If test is passed then unit gains 6+ FnP rest of game. or improves existing FnP...for Chaos is fickle.
Bummer. I mean slight chance of it backfiring so I guess no to bad. do not have any xp using it.
mrhappyface wrote: Would you not class "remove model from play if it has lost it's last wound" a rule?
right, but thats not a rule that removes the whole unit from the board (unless you consider the last model in the unit being removed as a "unit of 1", and even then, it would only allow "the unit" (read: the last model) to split instantly. the rest of the casualties would still be placed at the end of the phase, nearby the non-existant unit)
EDIT: whoops, forgot that instability was specifically excluded from letting a unit split when removed. I removed that bit from this post
I was just looking at the sprues for the Tzaangors and they seem to have shields, is there a specific entry stating they can take shields? Are the shields base wargear? Do they count as Close Combat Weapons?
They also have some pretty neat swords and axes, and also some miscellaneous weapons, great kit over all.
When a Pink dies you set up 2 blues at the end of that phase (so they can't act in that phase. If there is already a unit of blues within 6" of the dying pinks, the 2 models/pinks go there. Otherwise, even if the whole unit of pinks is destroyed, excluding demonic instability, the last pink to be removed from the table (so controlling picks which pink to pick up last) is the point where 6" of this last horror (still 2blues/pink) so that this new unit of blues is entirely within the 6" bubble, essentially, of that last pink. Same with brimmies
also: I put the pics up from the rules a few pages back so everyone can just see for themselves.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I was just looking at the sprues for the Tzaangors and they seem to have shields, is there a specific entry stating they can take shields? Are the shields base wargear? Do they count as Close Combat Weapons?
They're most likely there for use in Age of Sigmar and not 40K.
Whitebeard wrote: So should I be picking up a bunch of blue horrors and brimstone models?
Yes, but good luck, as GW does not yet sell either in stand-alone kits. You can get 3 Blue Horrors in the Tz Chariot box, or 4 Blues from the Silver Tower boxed game, which also include 4 Brimstone horrors. eBay currently does not have any for sale (I've been checking)
VeteranNoob wrote: When a Pink dies you set up 2 blues at the end of that phase (so they can't act in that phase. If there is already a unit of blues within 6" of the dying pinks, the 2 models/pinks go there. Otherwise, even if the whole unit of pinks is destroyed, excluding demonic instability, the last pink to be removed from the table (so controlling picks which pink to pick up last) is the point where 6" of this last horror (still 2blues/pink) so that this new unit of blues is entirely within the 6" bubble, essentially, of that last pink. Same with brimmies
Agreed. It does deem to imply that only 1 thing stops splitting and that is if Instability removes the unit. Removing the unit in ANY other way still produces blue/brimstone Horrors.
Now a good question is whether the reference to Instability is specifically the double 6s, or if any failed check that is high enough to remove the last few models in the unit?
SIde note, if you do remove all models in the unit, you do not wait until the end of the phase to place the new unit. They are immediately placed. So if you can kill a whole unit in one go, you can then target the unit created in the same phase.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I was just looking at the sprues for the Tzaangors and they seem to have shields, is there a specific entry stating they can take shields? Are the shields base wargear? Do they count as Close Combat Weapons?
They're most likely there for use in Age of Sigmar and not 40K.
But would it be to far fetched to use them as CCW in 40k? Or should I just stick with the chainswords?
Theoretically, if one was unable to fit all Blue Horrors within 6" of the unit, would the excess be removed as casualties, or would they just not deploy?
If the former, would this cause Brimstone Horrors to spawn?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Theoretically, if one was unable to fit all Blue Horrors within 6" of the unit, would the excess be removed as casualties, or would they just not deploy?
If the former, would this cause Brimstone Horrors to spawn?
Whitebeard wrote: So should I be picking up a bunch of blue horrors and brimstone models?
Yes, but good luck, as GW does not yet sell either in stand-alone kits. You can get 3 Blue Horrors in the Tz Chariot box, or 4 Blues from the Silver Tower boxed game, which also include 4 Brimstone horrors. eBay currently does not have any for sale (I've been checking)
VeteranNoob wrote: When a Pink dies you set up 2 blues at the end of that phase (so they can't act in that phase. If there is already a unit of blues within 6" of the dying pinks, the 2 models/pinks go there. Otherwise, even if the whole unit of pinks is destroyed, excluding demonic instability, the last pink to be removed from the table (so controlling picks which pink to pick up last) is the point where 6" of this last horror (still 2blues/pink) so that this new unit of blues is entirely within the 6" bubble, essentially, of that last pink. Same with brimmies
Agreed. It does deem to imply that only 1 thing stops splitting and that is if Instability removes the unit. Removing the unit in ANY other way still produces blue/brimstone Horrors.
Now a good question is whether the reference to Instability is specifically the double 6s, or if any failed check that is high enough to remove the last few models in the unit?
SIde note, if you do remove all models in the unit, you do not wait until the end of the phase to place the new unit. They are immediately placed. So if you can kill a whole unit in one go, you can then target the unit created in the same phase.
-
The language in splitting I'll type exactly: "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the slain Horrors will split and creat Blue Horrors at the end of that phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks)."
Hulksmash wrote: Are the daemon princes in the formations CSM or codex daemons?
I am no expert but thousand sons are from CSM so I would assume you field any unit available in CSM, from that book and if it only exists elsewhere you would then look elsewhere but hopefully the WoM sheds some light on it. If not, I would be fine with it either way my opponent wanted so long as they were consistent.
Whitebeard wrote: So should I be picking up a bunch of blue horrors and brimstone models?
Yes, but good luck, as GW does not yet sell either in stand-alone kits. You can get 3 Blue Horrors in the Tz Chariot box, or 4 Blues from the Silver Tower boxed game, which also include 4 Brimstone horrors. eBay currently does not have any for sale (I've been checking)
VeteranNoob wrote: When a Pink dies you set up 2 blues at the end of that phase (so they can't act in that phase. If there is already a unit of blues within 6" of the dying pinks, the 2 models/pinks go there. Otherwise, even if the whole unit of pinks is destroyed, excluding demonic instability, the last pink to be removed from the table (so controlling picks which pink to pick up last) is the point where 6" of this last horror (still 2blues/pink) so that this new unit of blues is entirely within the 6" bubble, essentially, of that last pink. Same with brimmies
Agreed. It does deem to imply that only 1 thing stops splitting and that is if Instability removes the unit. Removing the unit in ANY other way still produces blue/brimstone Horrors.
Now a good question is whether the reference to Instability is specifically the double 6s, or if any failed check that is high enough to remove the last few models in the unit?
SIde note, if you do remove all models in the unit, you do not wait until the end of the phase to place the new unit. They are immediately placed. So if you can kill a whole unit in one go, you can then target the unit created in the same phase.
-
The language in splitting I'll type exactly: "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the slain Horrors will split and creat Blue Horrors at the end of that phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks)."
That can't be all of it, I would assume it gets specific and tells you when where and how. That specificity is the key point.
Whitebeard wrote: So should I be picking up a bunch of blue horrors and brimstone models?
Yes, but good luck, as GW does not yet sell either in stand-alone kits. You can get 3 Blue Horrors in the Tz Chariot box, or 4 Blues from the Silver Tower boxed game, which also include 4 Brimstone horrors. eBay currently does not have any for sale (I've been checking)
VeteranNoob wrote: When a Pink dies you set up 2 blues at the end of that phase (so they can't act in that phase. If there is already a unit of blues within 6" of the dying pinks, the 2 models/pinks go there. Otherwise, even if the whole unit of pinks is destroyed, excluding demonic instability, the last pink to be removed from the table (so controlling picks which pink to pick up last) is the point where 6" of this last horror (still 2blues/pink) so that this new unit of blues is entirely within the 6" bubble, essentially, of that last pink. Same with brimmies
Agreed. It does deem to imply that only 1 thing stops splitting and that is if Instability removes the unit. Removing the unit in ANY other way still produces blue/brimstone Horrors.
Now a good question is whether the reference to Instability is specifically the double 6s, or if any failed check that is high enough to remove the last few models in the unit?
SIde note, if you do remove all models in the unit, you do not wait until the end of the phase to place the new unit. They are immediately placed. So if you can kill a whole unit in one go, you can then target the unit created in the same phase.
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The language in splitting I'll type exactly: "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the slain Horrors will split and creat Blue Horrors at the end of that phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks)."
That can't be all of it, I would assume it gets specific and tells you when where and how. That specificity is the key point.
"Split: If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the salin Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of that Phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks).
Two Blue Horrors are created for each slain Pink Horror- if there is allready a friendly Blue Horror unit within 6" of the Ping Horrors, add the newly created Blue Horrors to that unit, otherwise set them up as a new unit within 6" of the unit of Pink Horrors.
If a rule causes a Whole unit of Pink Horrors to be Removed at once (excluding Daemonic Instability), you can immediatly create a unit of Blue Horrors, just before removing the last model from the Pink Horrors unit. The unit of Blue Horrors has to models for each model in the unit of Pink Horrors at the point at which it is removed, and must be set up with all models within 6" of the last model from the Pink Horror unit."
The language in splitting I'll type exactly: "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the slain Horrors will split and creat Blue Horrors at the end of that phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks)."
And the rule goes on to say "If a rule causes the whole unit to be removed at once (excluding Instability), you can IMMEDIATELY create a units of Blue Horrors, just before removing the LAST model from the Pink horror unit."
So in any case in which the unit is removed (Instability is the only exception noted), you do not wait until the end of the phase, you do it immediately, and 6" from the last Horror removed. The reference to the "last horror" has to mean any time the unit is removed, not just rules that take out the whole squad. There has to be a "last model" to measure too. So if you shoot down all 11 horrors in a single phase, 22 Blue horrors are created within 6" of the last model. Immediately, not at the end of the phase
Galef wrote: I think the best way to do Pink/Blue horrors is to make half of them mostly Pink with some blue, and the other half mostly Blue with some Pink. that way you'd only need as many models as you need Blue Horrors.
What I might try (if I played daemons) is installing 3 blue LEDs in the bases with a watch battery. If they turn blue, just switch them on!
@VeteranNoob:
Are terminator and/or rubrics replacements for normal termies /TSons? Like cataphractii for loyalists.
I'm asking because that would allow us to use scarab occult in a terminator annihilation force.
Red_Drake wrote: VeteranNoob, is Magnus purely a CSM lord of war? or can be taken as a Lord of War choice in daemon armies as well?
This is important to me.
he's listed in the intro (pg 8) as a new datasheet entry for CSM codex. LoW. He is not in the Demon Pandemoniad from Warzone Fenris. That's all I got for you. I'm building a SCM TS army and plan to eventually ally in some cute, cuddly Tz demons for fun.
Galef wrote: I think the best way to do Pink/Blue horrors is to make half of them mostly Pink with some blue, and the other half mostly Blue with some Pink. that way you'd only need as many models as you need Blue Horrors.
What I might try (if I played daemons) is installing 3 blue LEDs in the bases with a watch battery. If they turn blue, just switch them on!
I will still need a ton more of them though...
In addition to adding Blue or Brimstone horror models, that would be fething cool
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Roknar wrote: @VeteranNoob:
Are terminator and/or rubrics replacements for normal termies /TSons? Like cataphractii for loyalists.
I'm asking because that would allow us to use scarab occult in a terminator annihilation force.
Try to answer as best I can. All the TS stuff is new addition to CSM. Ahriman and Rubrics replace the CSM codex entries. Does that help?
VeteranNoob wrote: @Hulk DP are entries in CSMTS Grand Cove and demons Pandemoniad.
GC: War Cabal, Sekhment conclave, reharti war sect, lord of the legion, war coven
demons: Lords of Pandemonium
I guess I can just check the Faction icon at the top of the sheets but based on what you're saying it's the CSMDP's outside of any daemon formations specific to that faction. Sounds good. I prefer the CSM variant.
Do we still have to pick one power from our marked discipline or did they do away with that?
If we're building a CSMTS army we would pull from DP in CSM codex at this point for the GC.
from that pic I took that circulated and Atia posted on her blog, the DP for this TS detachment would need to take the demon of Tz, and mark of tz if possible, and could elect to choose all his powers from the new expanded Lore of tzeentch (primaris +6) if he so desired.
Furthermore, as he already has VotLW *if* he is affected by a blessing his invuln save is improved by 1 until the start of our next psy phase. He would reroll failed to-hits vs. SW every round of close combat, though SW gain hatred (TS). He could take from the TS 6 artefacts.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I was just looking at the sprues for the Tzaangors and they seem to have shields, is there a specific entry stating they can take shields? Are the shields base wargear? Do they count as Close Combat Weapons?
They're most likely there for use in Age of Sigmar and not 40K.
But would it be to far fetched to use them as CCW in 40k? Or should I just stick with the chainswords?
Red_Drake wrote: "Split: If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the salin Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of that Phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks).
Two Blue Horrors are created for each slain Pink Horror- if there is allready a friendly Blue Horror unit within 6" of the Ping Horrors, add the newly created Blue Horrors to that unit, otherwise set them up as a new unit within 6" of the unit of Pink Horrors.
If a rule causes a Whole unit of Pink Horrors to be Removed at once (excluding Daemonic Instability), you can immediatly create a unit of Blue Horrors, just before removing the last model from the Pink Horrors unit. The unit of Blue Horrors has to models for each model in the unit of Pink Horrors at the point at which it is removed, and must be set up with all models within 6" of the last model from the Pink Horror unit."
Ok, if this is the exact wording then it becomes near impossible to run out of room to place the models as they don't need to be within 6", the unit they for does.
Which also means you could daisy chain Blue/Brimstone horrors across the board, which is dumb.
"You killed 10 horrors in your unit with the Herald with the Exalted Locus this shooting phase. I now get to create a unit of 40 Blue Horrors. Oh look I now have a sizable number of blue horrors in your deployment zone, even though the pink horrors were still in mine."
Trasvi wrote: Blue Horrors are 1-10 = 1 WC, 11-20 = 2 WC.
I haven't seen a screenshot of the Brimstone horrors, but I'm assuming they're S/T 1, 2W.
So assuming you take a standard unit of 11 horrors for 99 points, plus a herald with the double splits thing...
11 horrors => 44 blue horrors => 88 brimstone horrors. 143 wounds (231 if you're facing Dark Eldar who can't ID T1) and up to 44 warp charge... for 99 points.
Potential downside -> giving up kill points. Upsides -> so so many.
A couple issue with the math here. It's hard to judge how many WCs you can get because models that are Split MUST join a unit that is within 6" unless a unit is not in range, then and only then can you make a new unit. So at most, a unit of 11 horrors would only make 1 extra unit per turn, since they cannot move away unit their movement phase or with clever removing of casualties (which the attacking player has more control over anyway)
You have to "split" them over multiple turns in order to make that many new units. Also, You can't have all the WC at once. The 2WC from the original 11 Horrors goes away once the unit dies
The best case scenario for the Daemon play in the first turn is to have 3 Pinkes get killed while in a unit with the Loci, creating 12 Blues. Now they have 1WC from the remaining 8 Pinks and 2WC from the new unit of 12 Blues. That is only 1 more than they started with. Hardly game breaking. If you manage to kill a lot of Pinkies, than you make a single large unit of Blue. If you kill ALL the Pink in that turn, the unit of 22 Blues only generates 2 WC, just like the staring 11 Pinks
Even Killing Pinks in multiple phases will typically only creates 1 unit of Blues. For Example: You use Psychic Shriek to kill some, a new unit is made within 6".
In your shooting phase you kill some more Pinks. Guess what? the unit of Blues you created before is still within 6", so new models add to that unit.
Now you assault the Pinks. Unless the Daemon player can remove casualties in a way that makes the Pink & Blue units more than 6" away, they won't be able to create a new unit until YOUR new turn (with some exceptions like perils, dangerous terrain, etc).
The Split rule is pretty amazing, but it is not possible to make 90 pts unit into 250pts worth of units in the same turn, nor is it likely to produce all the Warp Charge, all the time.
At best, the Daemon player will have about 2-4 WC being produced for the "same" 90pt investment at any given turn. Not 44
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Sure, it is a theoretical scenario. Probably even impossible due to game length.
But even in the worst case scenario, a single 11 model pink horror unit without the locus now has effectively 55 (77) wounds and needs to be killed at least 3 times. They operate at the same or *increased* effectiveness as models die.
With how the game usually goes for me, my opponents throw a few stray boaters at the pinks to knock out one warp charge - a strategy which won't work anymore. Now just to stop the snowball effect the opponent needs to invest a large amount of shooting. If the pinks go to ground in ruins, you need to put 50 wounds on them to kill them all in one phase. If my opponent invests that amount of shooting to kill horrors instead of daemon princes I'm happy.
Wiping them out in assault is far easier, but it still takes at least 3 turns to completely do. If your opponent is trying to assault you off an objective, it's futile.
Now that I really think about it, I think the split rule is going to cause players to just completely ignore the pink horrors until the game is sealed, because trying to deal with them just creates more problems than it solves.
Is there any confirmation that Dark Angels will be getting any updates/new models? I see the DA codex says "no longer available" on the Canadian site, though I know this may mean nothing.
astro_nomicon wrote: They fleshed out the Tzeentch table in the for chaos space marines. The Daemon Tzeentch table from Curse of the Wulfen is unchanged.
Now if Traitor Legions does the same for Nurgle and Slaanesh I will be so happy.
Especially for Nurgle. Since Typhus HAS to take that god awful discipline it'd be nice to have a chance of stuff worth using other than Force lol.
astro_nomicon wrote: They fleshed out the Tzeentch table in the for chaos space marines. The Daemon Tzeentch table from Curse of the Wulfen is unchanged.
Now if Traitor Legions does the same for Nurgle and Slaanesh I will be so happy.
Especially for Nurgle. Since Typhus HAS to take that god awful discipline it'd be nice to have a chance of stuff worth using other than Force lol.
I don't believe the Traitor legion supplement will carry any Chaos bonuses.
Remember, Traitor legions are those that left the might of the Imperium and DIDN'T join chaos.
Otherwise, they would be Chaos Space Marines.
Yeah, new powers are a pretty exciting prospect! It would be awesome to see Cabals with marks, for a change, and not have that be a terrible self-inflicted hamstring for fluff's sake.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Yeah, new powers are a pretty exciting prospect! It would be awesome to see Cabals with marks, for a change, and not have that be a terrible self-inflicted hamstring for fluff's sake.
Don't be so quick, look at what they did with the Change and Tzeentch disciplines, they took the old tables and slapped some new ones on there. They will probably do the same with everything else.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Yeah, new powers are a pretty exciting prospect! It would be awesome to see Cabals with marks, for a change, and not have that be a terrible self-inflicted hamstring for fluff's sake.
Don't be so quick, look at what they did with the Change and Tzeentch disciplines, they took the old tables and slapped some new ones on there. They will probably do the same with everything else.
I actually have not seen the 2 newest disciples online.
Would appreciate it if anyone would send me a link to them! =O
astro_nomicon wrote: They fleshed out the Tzeentch table in the for chaos space marines. The Daemon Tzeentch table from Curse of the Wulfen is unchanged.
Now if Traitor Legions does the same for Nurgle and Slaanesh I will be so happy.
Especially for Nurgle. Since Typhus HAS to take that god awful discipline it'd be nice to have a chance of stuff worth using other than Force lol.
I don't believe the Traitor legion supplement will carry any Chaos bonuses.
Remember, Traitor legions are those that left the might of the Imperium and DIDN'T join chaos.
Otherwise, they would be Chaos Space Marines.
*checks the Strongly Disagree checkbox
It has all of the Traitor Legions, all of whom DID turn to chaos. The only ones who supposedly haven't are the Alpha Legion. I could very well see them including special things for specific Gods and such if they're doing Legion Specific rules.
Edit; Also would like to point out that is is a Chaos Space Marine Supplement.
astro_nomicon wrote: They fleshed out the Tzeentch table in the for chaos space marines. The Daemon Tzeentch table from Curse of the Wulfen is unchanged.
Now if Traitor Legions does the same for Nurgle and Slaanesh I will be so happy.
Especially for Nurgle. Since Typhus HAS to take that god awful discipline it'd be nice to have a chance of stuff worth using other than Force lol.
I don't believe the Traitor legion supplement will carry any Chaos bonuses.
Remember, Traitor legions are those that left the might of the Imperium and DIDN'T join chaos.
Otherwise, they would be Chaos Space Marines.
...say what?
No offense, but I think you might want to brush up on your lore... all of it.
The traitor legions all fell to chaos, some more than others. Horus was the warmaster and had the blessing of all 4 gods.
What your thinking of are renegade astartes, those may or may not fall to chaos although the majority do. Like the crimson slaughter.
Those only started appearing after the horus heresy. The Traitor Legions are called Traitor legion because that's exactly what they are. There haven't been any since...officially.
Some of these have been around for 10000 years, and steeped in the stuff of warp for longer than some renegade astartes chapters even exist.
4 of the legions dedicated themselves utterly and completely to their patron gods, two worship all of chaos equally. The remaining three may not be quite as eager to serve the great 4 by comparison but make no mistake, they are servants of chaos all. So getting updated chaos disciplines is going to happen for the respective traitor legions or not at all. As seen now with the Thousand Sons.
astro_nomicon wrote: They fleshed out the Tzeentch table in the for chaos space marines. The Daemon Tzeentch table from Curse of the Wulfen is unchanged.
Now if Traitor Legions does the same for Nurgle and Slaanesh I will be so happy.
Especially for Nurgle. Since Typhus HAS to take that god awful discipline it'd be nice to have a chance of stuff worth using other than Force lol.
I don't believe the Traitor legion supplement will carry any Chaos bonuses.
Remember, Traitor legions are those that left the might of the Imperium and DIDN'T join chaos.
Otherwise, they would be Chaos Space Marines.
...say what?
No offense, but I think you might want to brush up on your lore... all of it.
The traitor legions all fell to chaos, some more than others. Horus was the warmaster and had the blessing of all 4 gods.
What your thinking of are renegade astartes, those may or may not fall to chaos although the majority do. Like the crimson slaughter.
Those only started appearing after the horus heresy. The Traitor Legions are called Traitor legion because that's exactly what they are. There haven't been any since...officially.
Some of these have been around for 10000 years, and steeped in the stuff of warp for longer than some renegade astartes chapters even exist.
4 of the legions dedicated themselves utterly and completely to their patron gods two worship all of chaos equally. The remaining three may not be quite as eager to serve the great 4 by comparison but make no mistake, they are servants of chaos all. So getting updated chaos disciplines is going to happen for the respective traitor legions or not at all. As seen now with the Thousand Sons.
You are correct. I mistook the Traitors for Renegades. my b
You are correct. I mistook the Traitors for Renegades. my b
Even that doesn't hold true.
Especially when you consider that the Crimson Slaughter are an explicitly Renegade SM Chapter (and a Chaos Space Marine supplement) and one of the most infamous Renegades of all - the Tyrant of Badab, Huron Blackheart is a special character in the base Chaos Space Marine codex.
You really might want to brush up on your lore before wading in so.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Yeah, new powers are a pretty exciting prospect! It would be awesome to see Cabals with marks, for a change, and not have that be a terrible self-inflicted hamstring for fluff's sake.
Don't be so quick, look at what they did with the Change and Tzeentch disciplines, they took the old tables and slapped some new ones on there. They will probably do the same with everything else.
True, but the new Tzeentch tree is fun, barring the Blessing of Mutation. Granted, not exactly "worth" skipping Telepathy or Biomancy for, but I like the Mind Control power. Taken in a Cyclopia Cabal, you could turn some nasty units against each other. For funsies, not really too concerned with tournament power.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Yeah, new powers are a pretty exciting prospect! It would be awesome to see Cabals with marks, for a change, and not have that be a terrible self-inflicted hamstring for fluff's sake.
Don't be so quick, look at what they did with the Change and Tzeentch disciplines, they took the old tables and slapped some new ones on there. They will probably do the same with everything else.
I actually have not seen the 2 newest disciples online.
Would appreciate it if anyone would send me a link to them! =O
I'm liking the new releases for TS, as this could suggest a branching out for CSM and the possibility of each chaos god being a separate faction(Lookin' forward to my boy Nurgle! )
As for the models, DP Magnus is an excellent centerpiece for a CSM army. His unfurled wings definitely give him a presence on the battlefield to rival his presence in the Warp. The new RM look like an excellent update to the older models and breath life into a frankly dying faction(tabletop wise). Ditto for the terminators, which look great in their TBT tartaros armor. As for Ahriman and the Sorcerers, They all look pretty good, but when you compare the new CSM sorcerer models to the new Ahriman, they're pretty similar barring his helm and staff.
VeteranNoob wrote: If we're building a CSMTS army we would pull from DP in CSM codex at this point for the GC.
from that pic I took that circulated and Atia posted on her blog, the DP for this TS detachment would need to take the demon of Tz, and mark of tz if possible, and could elect to choose all his powers from the new expanded Lore of tzeentch (primaris +6) if he so desired.
Furthermore, as he already has VotLW *if* he is affected by a blessing his invuln save is improved by 1 until the start of our next psy phase. He would reroll failed to-hits vs. SW every round of close combat, though SW gain hatred (TS). He could take from the TS 6 artefacts.
Heeeeeeeey, can you spill if anything in Traitor Legions is compatibly with KDK? I don't need details, I just want to know if I should squash all my hopes and dreams now before saturday.
I may be imagining it but is there something in the new release that means the psyker knows all Tzeentch powers, kinda like the eternal grimoire?
I could have swarn something let a sorceror (or it might have been Ahriman) know all Tzeentch powers, does anyone know what I am talking about?
mrhappyface wrote: I may be imagining it but is there something in the new release that means the psyker knows all Tzeentch powers, kinda like the eternal grimoire?
I could have swarn something let a sorceror (or it might have been Ahriman) know all Tzeentch powers, does anyone know what I am talking about?
Not sure. I think I read somewhere that both Ahriman and the Exalted Sorcerers have all the Tzeentch powers. No idea if I read it right.
mrhappyface wrote: I may be imagining it but is there something in the new release that means the psyker knows all Tzeentch powers, kinda like the eternal grimoire?
I could have swarn something let a sorceror (or it might have been Ahriman) know all Tzeentch powers, does anyone know what I am talking about?
Magnus knows all Tzeentch Powers and Sorcerers can now roll all of their powers on the Tzeentch table.
If some lovely person with the book could pretty please answer these questions that would be awesome sauce!!
Do the Sorcerers, Scarab Occult Terminator Sorcerers and Exalted Sorcerers still have to select one of their powers from Tzeentch or are they free to select all their powers from wherever they like?
Can Exalted Sorcerers take Terminator armour at all? What about items from the Chaos Rewards and Special Issue Wargear lists? (I read somewhere they couldn't)
What is the range of the Astral Grimoire? Can you also please confirm if it is the bearer AND/OR a unit within X"?
Sorta disappointing that the detachment is basically just all the new models forced on you. Yet you can take demon engines but no warsmith or vehicles but no CSM? (Who pilots them then?). They could have made this a bit more interesting rather than be so dogmatic about restricting it heavily to new kits.
