Kirasu wrote: Except that GW makes a lot of their money on the impulse buys of new product. Next week there will be a new expensive item to buy which people will use their money on.
That is after all the entire purpose of weekly releases.
yep. Funny how someone says business 101 in his post and say something that makes no sense business wise
xttz wrote: The biggest repeating complaint I'm reading here is "ZOMG GW marketing can't predict the future, terrible business, sad!!!". For those people I have some great news; there's an awful lot of money to be made delivering accurate business sales forecasting. It's a tough enough area to do reliably in a B2B manufacturing / industry sector, let alone a B2C creative market. Everyone posting how easy it is to forecast manufacturing requirements several months out should really start consulting work asap, because you can literally make millions.
SeanDrake wrote: Yesterday when the game was released GW themselves through there website, stores and sales reps confirmed a limited release of a one and done product.
Citation needed.
GW have historically preferred the phrasing "while stocks last" for limited run releases because it's very flexible in terms of EU sales law. They can do a limited production run for something there may not be enough demand for but still imply limited stock. Then, if demand is sufficient, more can be ordered. This is the same "while stocks last" phrasing used for Dreadfleet, which didn't sell well enough to justify a second run. Also the same phrasing used for Space Hulk, which sold out multiple production runs.
Personally I've only ever known GW publish something with finite availability on rare occasions like games day events, etc. If you have any official evidence to the contrary for SWA, I'd really love to see it.
As you said, there is numerous companies that offer these services, and it is actually possible to also hire employees that are good at this stuff. Which is why it make GW decision to do no Market Research (theyr words, not mine) absolutely indefensible. Having a product that sold out in about 5 minutes and is not supposed to get another print (things might have changed) is a major fragup. Weird that some are so ensnared by GW that they are not even willing to admit this.
Kovnik Obama wrote: FFG released SW: Destiny and failed to anticipate the hype. Despite producing more SW: Destiny launch items than any other of their launch.
Did they advertise SW: Destiny heavily at a at a trade show, following that up by posts on their community page, all before releasing an item that no one thought was limited as limited?
luke1705 wrote: You make an initial run and PURPOSELY undershoot the demand. This creates artificial demand and gets people excited to play, plus you're guaranteed to make maximum profit on your first run. Based on timing, you can stipulate how big your second run should be. But this is a big set. Once the market is saturated, the extra boxes will likely sit around for a while. I'm ok with GW making better business decisions going forward. If that inconveniences me or some other people for a few weeks or so, so be it. There are other things I can do with my life.
The biggest flaw with the above is that this isn't the first run. This is the only run. Until GW comes out and says "We're making more!", then this is it, because it is listed as a while stocks last/limited run.
Kanluwen wrote: Wasn't a product they produced in house. The Wall of Martyrs line that the Plasma Obliterators go with were all produced in China.
As has been already said, Space Hulk did a 2nd print run too which was 2 years later. The problem is still that GW makes its money off impulse buys, so not having product now will make a 2nd print run much less profitable.
Don't be so upset at the players, GW is the one losing money off failed forecasts.
I find the extra rules on some of these teams questionable...
Grey Knight are limited to 3-5 per team and cannot ever recruit anyone else. That'd be fine, if it actually WAS possible to get to 5 man.
Justicar costs at least 275pts (the Warding Stave being the cheapest H2H weapon available)
A Grey Knight costs at least 200pts (same here)
Minimum for 5 woudl therefore be 1075.
Unless the specalists are to be included in that 5-man max? Besides, are they free? With no access to the rules, it's hard to figure that all out... /sigh
Even though it's massively interesting to read how terrible it is that they got their projections wrong over and over, a slight change of subject...
How great is it that this is demonstrating to them that the interest in stuff like this is much greater than they thought?! Games of this size are what I will play, I have zero interest in a 40k scale game no matter how good the rules are - but this I can actually paint enough for and play it
I really hope it obligates them to plan for lots more in this vein!
The campaign rules are really disapointing. I won't even comment on the injury table, since it's absurd beyond reason, but why couldn't they just gave money instead of these stupid rearm or recruit rules? These are limiting the possible actions for no good reasons, and are creating all kind of problems for certain factions.
Specialists appear to be bought during a campaign , you apparently earn promethium which is usable to get specialists, so a balancing act between your total in a campaign and using a specialist.
I assume that for one off games you could always play points plus X specialists.
I think it's hard to see why grey knights are even in this when daemons aren't.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the terrain , just hoping I actually get the boxes I've preordered........
Eh, I'm in a weird place with this release. I did preorder a copy at an independent store Saturday, a few hours before the sold out kerfuffle started. No telling if I'll actually get it, and I'll be okay with it if I don't. I wanted it enough to preorder, but haven't been playing much lately anyway, so I'll save $110 bucks if they can't fill the order. Life will go on....
streetsamurai wrote: The campaign rules are really disapointing. I won't even comment on the injury table, since it's absurd beyond reason, but why couldn't they just gave money instead of these stupid rearm or recruit rules? These are limiting the possible actions for no good reasons, and are creating all kind of problems for certain factions.
Because they are making it simple. It's based on Necromunda, if you are interested in it as anything like a balanced affair then prepare to house rule.
Use the old tables for injuries, allow money to be carried over
TwilightSparkles wrote: Specialists appear to be bought during a campaign , you apparently earn promethium which is usable to get specialists, so a balancing act between your total in a campaign and using a specialist.
I assume that for one off games you could always play points plus X specialists.
I think it's hard to see why grey knights are even in this when daemons aren't.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the terrain , just hoping I actually get the boxes I've preordered........
Grey Knights were famously on Armageddon (*cough* genocide *cough*). But they were only there because of the daemons...
Daemons aren't customisable and usually come in hordes. Not so good for a skirmish game.
streetsamurai wrote: The campaign rules are really disapointing. I won't even comment on the injury table, since it's absurd beyond reason, but why couldn't they just gave money instead of these stupid rearm or recruit rules? These are limiting the possible actions for no good reasons, and are creating all kind of problems for certain factions.
Because they are making it simple. It's based on Necromunda, if you are interested in it as anything like a balanced affair then prepare to house rule.
Use the old tables for injuries, allow money to be carried over
This Is what I will do. But it's still mind boggling that GW seems to think that their customers are too stupid to keep track of such simple things
TwilightSparkles wrote: Specialists appear to be bought during a campaign , you apparently earn promethium which is usable to get specialists, so a balancing act between your total in a campaign and using a specialist.
I assume that for one off games you could always play points plus X specialists.
I think it's hard to see why grey knights are even in this when daemons aren't.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the terrain , just hoping I actually get the boxes I've preordered........
Promethium Caches are used for Specialist Operatives, not "Specialists".
There's a difference. Specialists are things like the Gunners, while Specialist Operatives are things like the Grey Knight Terminators.
RexHavoc wrote: People are already asking in the comments is there any point in buying as they might not be able to meet demand. Of course, this is the made to order thing, so they will make enough to supply, but the damage is done and people are questioning their ability to do what they offer.
GW can't be held responsible for the portion of their customer base that cannot understand basic information, or assumes the worst possible outcome from every situation.
No, just for utterly failing to anticipate demand for a product.
Again.
Business 101 bro. You make an initial run and PURPOSELY undershoot the demand. This creates artificial demand and gets people excited to play, plus you're guaranteed to make maximum profit on your first run. Based on timing, you can stipulate how big your second run should be. But this is a big set. Once the market is saturated, the extra boxes will likely sit around for a while. I'm ok with GW making better business decisions going forward. If that inconveniences me or some other people for a few weeks or so, so be it. There are other things I can do with my life.
If you think that's business 101, I suggest you change schools.
Nintendo does literally the same thing. It still pisses people off but it does create a weird demand for stuff.
RexHavoc wrote: People are already asking in the comments is there any point in buying as they might not be able to meet demand. Of course, this is the made to order thing, so they will make enough to supply, but the damage is done and people are questioning their ability to do what they offer.
GW can't be held responsible for the portion of their customer base that cannot understand basic information, or assumes the worst possible outcome from every situation.
No, just for utterly failing to anticipate demand for a product.
Again.
Business 101 bro. You make an initial run and PURPOSELY undershoot the demand. This creates artificial demand and gets people excited to play, plus you're guaranteed to make maximum profit on your first run. Based on timing, you can stipulate how big your second run should be. But this is a big set. Once the market is saturated, the extra boxes will likely sit around for a while. I'm ok with GW making better business decisions going forward. If that inconveniences me or some other people for a few weeks or so, so be it. There are other things I can do with my life.
If you think that's business 101, I suggest you change schools.
Nintendo does literally the same thing. It still pisses people off but it does create a weird demand for stuff.
Given Nintendo haven't had the best financial track record over recent years, and has had one or two lemons, it is entirely possible that a conservative initial run was a financial necessity, not some sort of bass ackwards marketing ploy.
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote: Do you guys possibly think there will be a separate release option with just the rules? Potentially a downloadable PDF?
Yesterday during the initial sell-out, it was suggested by some of the Facebook team that the rules would be digitally released in a few weeks as a paid for bit--but that post has since vanished.
streetsamurai wrote: The campaign rules are really disapointing. I won't even comment on the injury table, since it's absurd beyond reason, but why couldn't they just gave money instead of these stupid rearm or recruit rules? These are limiting the possible actions for no good reasons, and are creating all kind of problems for certain factions.
Because they are making it simple. It's based on Necromunda, if you are interested in it as anything like a balanced affair then prepare to house rule.
Use the old tables for injuries, allow money to be carried over
This Is what I will do. But it's still mind boggling that GW seems to think that their customers are too stupid to keep track of such simple things
I'm not sure it's about being stupid.
It makes the game much easier to keep at some semblance of two gangs being able to play each other after a few games
It's going to be the first thing a new player can play, learning the rules and having a basic system is good.
RexHavoc wrote: People are already asking in the comments is there any point in buying as they might not be able to meet demand. Of course, this is the made to order thing, so they will make enough to supply, but the damage is done and people are questioning their ability to do what they offer.
GW can't be held responsible for the portion of their customer base that cannot understand basic information, or assumes the worst possible outcome from every situation.
No, just for utterly failing to anticipate demand for a product.
Again.
Business 101 bro. You make an initial run and PURPOSELY undershoot the demand. This creates artificial demand and gets people excited to play, plus you're guaranteed to make maximum profit on your first run. Based on timing, you can stipulate how big your second run should be. But this is a big set. Once the market is saturated, the extra boxes will likely sit around for a while. I'm ok with GW making better business decisions going forward. If that inconveniences me or some other people for a few weeks or so, so be it. There are other things I can do with my life.
If you think that's business 101, I suggest you change schools.
Nintendo does literally the same thing. It still pisses people off but it does create a weird demand for stuff.
Given Nintendo haven't had the best financial track record over recent years, and has had one or two lemons, it is entirely possible that a conservative initial run was a financial necessity, not some sort of bass ackwards marketing ploy.
Not only that but once again Nintendo's releases weren't planned to be limited to just 1 run.
You can't create demand for a product by doing a small initial run if you only ever planned to make ONE run at all.
You can't create demand for a product by doing a small initial run if you only ever planned to make ONE run at all.
No, you can't... But you can potentially create a perception of value through scarcity of your product overall.
As in, if every product you release sells out within minutes, then you (hopefully) build consumer perception of a company that has a product that is incredibly in-demand, and so people will (again, hopefully) flock to subsequent releases, on the assumption that they will be similarly in-demand and therefore worth buying.
It's an idea that would have fit well with Kirby-era GW, under that belief of his that GW's customers were mindless sheep who would race each other to buy whatever GW released because ooh! Shiny!...
The danger, of course, is that you have to balance the sales and market gains you achieve that way against the crankiness of potential customers who consistently miss out on the things they want. Brand loyalty only carries you so far.
To be clear, I don't think that's what was going on here... I suspect it really was just a case of them releasing what was intended to be a one-off splash release without having any idea that it was something that so many people actually wanted. But this release has been such a mess of miscommunication and misunderstanding that it's kind of hard to say for sure.
The reason for doing a small run is not to create artificial demand. It is not why Nintendo operates this way and not why GW does it.
The history of retail is full of examples of companies going bankrupt by making too many products.
The collapse of the video game business and the landfill full of e.t. games is one of the most famous examples.
Just recently Disney infinity was cancelled because they made too many toys.
If you make too many of a product you not only lose the money spent on production but you have to pay for storage and shipping. You are also filling up shelf space in stores with product that does not sell so you are hurting sales of other products.
In the end it is much better for a company to make 10,000 copies of a product and sell out than to make 100,000 copies and only sell 50,000.
streetsamurai wrote: The campaign rules are really disapointing. I won't even comment on the injury table, since it's absurd beyond reason, but why couldn't they just gave money instead of these stupid rearm or recruit rules? These are limiting the possible actions for no good reasons, and are creating all kind of problems for certain factions.
Because they are making it simple. It's based on Necromunda, if you are interested in it as anything like a balanced affair then prepare to house rule.
Use the old tables for injuries, allow money to be carried over
This Is what I will do. But it's still mind boggling that GW seems to think that their customers are too stupid to keep track of such simple things
I'm not sure it's about being stupid.
It makes the game much easier to keep at some semblance of two gangs being able to play each other after a few games
It's going to be the first thing a new player can play, learning the rules and having a basic system is good.
Might be wrong, but I think that the proportion of customers that see these simplified rules as an advantage is insignificant compared to the proportion that tee them as being detrimental.
Chikout wrote: The reason for doing a small run is not to create artificial demand. It is not why Nintendo operates this way and not why GW does it. The history of retail is full of examples of companies going bankrupt by making too many products. The collapse of the video game business and the landfill full of e.t. games is one of the most famous examples. Just recently Disney infinity was cancelled because they made too many toys. If you make too many of a product you not only lose the money spent on production but you have to pay for storage and shipping. You are also filling up shelf space in stores with product that does not sell so you are hurting sales of other products. In the end it is much better for a company to make 10,000 copies of a product and sell out than to make 100,000 copies and only sell 50,000.
Yes it is. But still, it is far from the optimal solution and it shows that GW marketing staff (if they have any) are wholly incompetent
Unlike many of the people who appear to be commenting, I've played two games of SW so far.
It's simple, easy to pick up, and does a very good job of giving the players ideas to make a narrative with.
A large section of the rules is weapons - but for the most part, everything is simple enough to pick up quickly.
If GW releases more content for this game (good odds, given silver tower 2 precedent) they'll have a solid game I feel.
If they don't, it seems like a lot of necromunda supplements will be easily adaptible.
Amazed it sold so fast. Now that there is clear demand from the players I think GW will be more interested in support. Actions speak louder than words, and money is extremely loud.
streetsamurai wrote: The campaign rules are really disapointing. I won't even comment on the injury table, since it's absurd beyond reason, but why couldn't they just gave money instead of these stupid rearm or recruit rules? These are limiting the possible actions for no good reasons, and are creating all kind of problems for certain factions.
Because they are making it simple. It's based on Necromunda, if you are interested in it as anything like a balanced affair then prepare to house rule.
Use the old tables for injuries, allow money to be carried over
This Is what I will do. But it's still mind boggling that GW seems to think that their customers are too stupid to keep track of such simple things
I'm not sure it's about being stupid.
It makes the game much easier to keep at some semblance of two gangs being able to play each other after a few games
It's going to be the first thing a new player can play, learning the rules and having a basic system is good.
Might be wrong, but I think that the proportion of customers that see these simplified rules as an advantage is insignificant compared to the proportion that tee them as being detrimental.
I can say safely, that DakkaDakka is not the gaming industries preferred audience.
In the end it is much better for a company to make 10,000 copies of a product and sell out than to make 100,000 copies and only sell 50,000.
Not necessarily. The tipping point is going to vary significantly depending on a whole host of factors like production costs, storage costs, overheads... and what you do with those leftover 50000 copies. If your production costs are negligible (less than 2% of the overall cost, according to some of GW's previous financial reports) then it's very easy to imagine a scenario where it would be more profitable to produce the 100,000 copies and just bin whatever doesn't sell.
thats indeed an excellent point. Considering that past a certain quantity, the marginal cost of SWA is probaby really low, making a 100 000 and only selling 50 000 might indeed be better than only making 10 000
But as I read it on GW web site the box sets sold online will not ship out till the Monday after the release Saturday.
So the people picking up their box in shops will get it before the online people.
Guard team model costs are exactly the same as the genestealer cult equivalents.
Their team special ability is that the leader can issue a command instead of shooting and all guardsmen within 6" can then re-roll to hit rolls of 1.
Sergeant has WS, BS, I 4 and Ld 8, otherwise baseline human. Trooper is a veteran, who has same stats as a veteran in 40k. New recruit is a guardsman, same stats as a 40k guardsman.
Pretty much everyone can get laspistol or shotgun at the same price GSC get them. Lasguns are 10 points cheaper than for GSC.
Can get Camo Gear for 5 points, which reduces maximum range of enemy weapons by 4", if I remember right.
Can get a Clip Harness for 10 points, which means you are immune to falling so long as you attached it in your last movement phase (which takes up your move).
Can't get photo visors for some reason, but those reduce the cover penalty by 1.
Carapace armour is 20 points and does basically what you expect.
Red Dot Sight is the same cost as skitarii pay and gives +1 to hit, but enemy gets a 6+ invulnerable, I think.
Telescopic sight is the same cost as for skitarii too, increases maximum range of weapon.
Frag, Melta and Krak, same as skitarii.
Pretty much everyone can have close combat weapons, knife for 5, sword for 15, chainsword for 25 and power sword (sergeant only) for 50.
Sergeant can take a bolt pistol (same as GSC), plasma pistol (50) or boltgun (35)
Special weapons are sniper rifle (40), flamer (40), demo charge (50, one shot), plasma gun (80), meltagun (95), heavy flamer (100) and grenade launcher (85/100/125 depending on grenades).
EDIT:
Marine Scouts are led by a sergeant (200 points, same statline as veteran sergeant in 40k), troops are scouts (100, current 40k scout statline), novitiate scouts (75, old 40k scout statline), specialists are gunners for the usual 10 points on top of a trooper.
Oddly, all scouts get Move 5, rather than the human standard 4.
ATSKNF makes them immune to fear and terror and can always test to recover from pinning.
They get the same grenades and miscellaneous gear that the guard do for the same prices, except they can get photo-visors for 15 points.
HtH weapon options and prices are identical to guard.
Can get shotguns, boltguns and sniper rifles on everyone for the same price as the guard.
Heavybolter is 180, missile launcher is 175/190/225
Space Wolf scouts can also get flamers, plasma guns and melta guns at guard prices, but can not take novitiate scouts.
Not sure exactly what ork points or rules are yet, but seem to be slightly cheaper than guard for boyz. Yoofs are WS 3, A 1, everyone else's stats as per the 40k version. Think shoota is 20 points.
I doubt they will, since they seems to think that doing no market research is something you should be proud of. BTW, not everybody that plays GW games is a low life living in mommy basement. A lot of us have high profile jobs in management and marketing
Guard team model costs are exactly the same as the genestealer cult equivalents.
Their team special ability is that the leader can issue a command instead of shooting and all guardsmen within 6" can then re-roll to hit rolls of 1.
Sergeant has WS, BS, I 4 and Ld 8, otherwise baseline human. Trooper is a veteran, who has same stats as a veteran in 40k. New recruit is a guardsman, same stats as a 40k guardsman.
Pretty much everyone can get laspistol or shotgun at the same price GSC get them. Lasguns are 10 points cheaper than for GSC.
Can get Camo Gear for 5 points, which reduces maximum range of enemy weapons by 4", if I remember right.
Can get a Clip Harness for 10 points, which means you are immune to falling so long as you attached it in your last movement phase (which takes up your move).
Can't get photo visors for some reason, but those reduce the cover penalty by 1.
Carapace armour is 20 points and does basically what you expect.
Red Dot Sight is the same cost as skitarii pay and gives +1 to hit, but enemy gets a 6+ invulnerable, I think.
Telescopic sight is the same cost as for skitarii too, increases maximum range of weapon.
Frag, Melta and Krak, same as skitarii.
Pretty much everyone can have close combat weapons, knife for 5, sword for 15, chainsword for 25 and power sword (sergeant only) for 50.
Sergeant can take a bolt pistol (same as GSC), plasma pistol (50) or boltgun (35)
Special weapons are sniper rifle (40), flamer (40), demo charge (50, one shot), plasma gun (80), meltagun (95), heavy flamer (100) and grenade launcher (85/100/125 depending on grenades).
EDIT:
Marine Scouts are led by a sergeant (200 points, same statline as veteran sergeant in 40k), troops are scouts (100, current 40k scout statline), novitiate scouts (75, old 40k scout statline), specialists are gunners for the usual 10 points on top of a trooper.
Oddly, all scouts get Move 5, rather than the human standard 4.
ATSKNF makes them immune to fear and terror and can always test to recover from pinning.
They get the same grenades and miscellaneous gear that the guard do for the same prices, except they can get photo-visors for 15 points.
HtH weapon options and prices are identical to guard.
Can get shotguns, boltguns and sniper rifles on everyone for the same price as the guard.
Heavybolter is 180, missile launcher is 175/190/225
Space Wolf scouts can also get flamers, plasma guns and melta guns at guard prices, but can not take novitiate scouts.
Not sure exactly what ork points or rules are yet, but seem to be slightly cheaper than guard for boyz. Yoofs are WS 3, A 1, everyone else's stats as per the 40k version. Think shoota is 20 points.
Neronoxx wrote: Unlike many of the people who appear to be commenting, I've played two games of SW so far.
He said, like that meant something.
Game's not out yet boyo, and most of us that wanted one can't get one, so of course most of us haven't played the game yet. We can still react to leaked rules. It's not hard to read an interpret those.
I really do dislike the "Just wait and see guys! You haven't seen it yet!" approach to rules. To a movie or television show, something you need to experience, saying it is bad prior to seeing it is stupid. But for rules, where we can read the rules, and interpret the rules, it's not difficult to get an idea of how they work and whether they are good or not.
Neronoxx wrote: If GW releases more content for this game (good odds, given silver tower 2 precedent) they'll have a solid game I feel.
Except that Silver Tower wasn't released as a one-and-done limited release. This was. What precedent do you have to show that we'll get any more releases for this?
A lot of us thought that this imprint - Shadow War [Name] - was the start of something new, a bit like Warhammer Underwords [Name] looks to be. This does not appear to be the cast at all.
xttz wrote: The biggest repeating complaint I'm reading here is "ZOMG GW marketing can't predict the future, terrible business, sad!!!". For those people I have some great news; there's an awful lot of money to be made delivering accurate business sales forecasting. It's a tough enough area to do reliably in a B2B manufacturing / industry sector, let alone a B2C creative market. Everyone posting how easy it is to forecast manufacturing requirements several months out should really start consulting work asap, because you can literally make millions.
SeanDrake wrote: Yesterday when the game was released GW themselves through there website, stores and sales reps confirmed a limited release of a one and done product.
Citation needed.
GW have historically preferred the phrasing "while stocks last" for limited run releases because it's very flexible in terms of EU sales law. They can do a limited production run for something there may not be enough demand for but still imply limited stock. Then, if demand is sufficient, more can be ordered. This is the same "while stocks last" phrasing used for Dreadfleet, which didn't sell well enough to justify a second run. Also the same phrasing used for Space Hulk, which sold out multiple production runs.
Personally I've only ever known GW publish something with finite availability on rare occasions like games day events, etc. If you have any official evidence to the contrary for SWA, I'd really love to see it.
Unfortunately, you are going to have to reel this trout in. YOU are not seeing the conversation as a whole here. the issue is not as you say, either, you just misread the tone of the conversation. People are mad because the "Limited" discussion came, after the fact of the conversation of the game itself. No blood, no foul.
"Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding."
The issue on the table is that GW came out, as the news did, and in passing dropped the bomb that the game was going to be limited run. THEN, as the wave of .... issue.. came along, are now in rework status to the kickback of the chainsaw. They underestimated the wave of interest, and desire they generated for the game. it is that simple. Best thing they can do? crank out 100,000 more units, and watch as the money rolls in.
"While Supplies last" is subjective. THIS game is not even out yet, it is not even a conversation piece. THE game itself was , as usual, pushed out with the idiocy of standard issue GW, again, not knowing their cliental, and throwing chum in the water, when they have great white sharks hiding under the rocks. I don't fault GW, in general, I fault their team that released this information, and the handling of this issue in such a haphazard manner.
I know for a fact that GW is actually TRYING. That to me is the key, unlike past released games, the team they have now is actually responsive to discussion, so in that- chalk it up as a shortsighted one, on their end. I am sure they are not blind to the fallout that they themselves have created.
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EnTyme wrote: I'm sure GW will be interested to see how many marketing and merchandising experts they have playing their games.
I don't see the reasoning behind this comment. Seriously? Your not even looking at the issue that has people irritated, here.
You don't honestly believe that do you? Are you so bitter that you're actually claiming that playing the game has no factor in evaluating it?
Game's not out yet boyo, and most of us that wanted one can't get one, so of course most of us haven't played the game yet. We can still react to leaked rules. It's not hard to read an interpret those.
Anybody can react to leaked rules. Turns out, their reactions are usually wrong.
I really do dislike the "Just wait and see guys! You haven't seen it yet!" approach to rules. To a movie or television show, something you need to experience, saying it is bad prior to seeing it is stupid. But for rules, where we can read the rules, and interpret the rules, it's not difficult to get an idea of how they work and whether they are good or not.
Oh, so just by looking at the Kill Team rosters and few pages that have been released, you are able to quantify and evaluate a full ruleset? Not buying it sarge. Try selling that load to someone else.
Except that Silver Tower wasn't released as a one-and-done limited release. This was. What precedent do you have to show that we'll get any more releases for this?
Silver Tower was so popular, GW released a second expansion to the main game incorporating more of what people had asked for. All I'm saying is if what you think of GW was true, then we wouldn't have seen that happen.
A lot of us thought that this imprint - Shadow War [Name] - was the start of something new, a bit like Warhammer Underwords [Name] looks to be. This does not appear to be the cast at all.
Why? Because you said so? See above comments.
There is nothing to support this.
There actually is, try reading the comments. If that's too much work for you then I don't really know what to tell you.
But really, do you have nothing better to do than attack people?
There actually is, try reading the comments. If that's too much work for you then I don't really know what to tell you.
This was covered earlier in this thread. The comment that you linked to is based on an old email that is being recirculated as new news. GW have given no evidence so far that they're actually looking at a reprint. All they've said so far is that they're working on a digital release, and then that comment was removed and replaced with 'We're looking into it'.
At this stage, we have no idea what the outcome will be.
The game is basically necro with a few tweaks. If you played necro and read the informations that have been released, there is no need to play this game to have an opinion on the ruleset
In the end it is much better for a company to make 10,000 copies of a product and sell out than to make 100,000 copies and only sell 50,000.
Not necessarily. The tipping point is going to vary significantly depending on a whole host of factors like production costs, storage costs, overheads... and what you do with those leftover 50000 copies. If your production costs are negligible (less than 2% of the overall cost, according to some of GW's previous financial reports) then it's very easy to imagine a scenario where it would be more profitable to produce the 100,000 copies and just bin whatever doesn't sell.
This is true. If you product is a video game sold on CD, then your incremental production cost might be around $1.00 USD - 10 cents for the cover, 20 cents for the booklet, 20 cents for the CD, and 50 cents for the case. But the revenue would be $50.00 USD per game sold. So that's $2,500,000 revenue vs $50,000 unsold inventory. I'll take that ratio if my development cost was under $2M.
streetsamurai wrote: The game is basically necro with a few tweaks. If you played necro and read the informations that have been released, there is no need to play this game to have an opinion on the ruleset
Just last week I was listening to several members of the board state that Necromunda was indeed the best thing GW had ever done.
Some of those same members are the ones stating that Shadow Wars is bad.
It's mind boggling, but I guess part of the hobby is just blindly hating anything GW makes.
In fact, I bet that new citadel War-ter causes cancer...
I have no doubt you are getting slammed with emails about the undersupplying of Shadow War Armageddon, but I wanted to offer my thoughts, and ask that you pass these on the the design/marketing/planning teams.
I am sure that GW will find a way to get at least the rules to folks that want it, but I wanted to urge GW to look at Shadow War not as a "once and done" product, but as an evergreen one fulfilling what has been a long unsatisfied demand for a true 40K skirmish game. Kill Team is fun as a quick one of, but is ultimately pretty limited and doesn't have the finer detail or the campaign focus that Shadow War, as an adaptation/update of the Necromunda engine does.
Having that skirmish game provides both an easier entry to new players, as well as giving veteran players more ways to play - and more ways to play means more reason to buy models. As a personal example, my partner and I are both very excited about Shadow War. In discussing plans, I asked them if they were going to do a Scout team from their Dark Angels, or something else. Looking over the PDF of the additional Kill Teams, they saw that Grey Knights were an option and immediately picked them. Thinking narrative, I figured that meant I should start with a Chaos Team. While I have a pretty extensive Khorne-focused collection, my thoughts went to the new Thousand Son models.
As a result, before we've even gotten Shaodw War (we were fortunate enough to get a copy ordered online before it sold out from GW), we had also gone and purchased a Grey Knight Strike Squad, box of Rubric Marines, and box of Tzaangors (aka cultists) which is $150 we would not have otherwise been spending on GW at that point. And they will be getting a box of Grey Knight Terminators before long for Special Operatives, and I know I have more incentive to look at expanding the Thousands Sons into a larger portion of my overall Chaos Space Marine Collection.
I strongly recommend GW look at keeping the Necromunda rules in print (though I quite understand having the Armageddon box as a limited value-focused launch product and not an evergreen one_, with support for additional Kill Teams and models - even updating the vehicle rules from previous editions for things like bikes. As another personal example, I don't have a Dark Eldar army - but I do have Gangs of Commoragh. Letting me use those makes getting Wyches to use more tempting - and having rules for a Kabalite Warrior Kill Team would be even better.
This can even tie into future releases. Take the Death Guard we've had previewed. Sure, like I'm using the Thousand Sons as stand-ins for the generic Chaos Marine Kill Team with the appropriate Mark and gear, one can do the same with the new Plague Marines and Nurgle Cultists when they come out - but imagine that extra bit of excitement if, when the pre-orders for them go up, a Death Guard Kill Team list is posted alongside, with some of the unique DG specific gear and maybe a special rule or two.
In sort: having a skirmish game using the main ranges is another way to sell people models, and one that people want to invest into. Please consider making Shadow War an evergreen game under the Warhammer 40,000 umbrella.
rmeister0 wrote: All in all, though, the fact that people at GW seem to be "surprised" at how quickly Shadow War sold out tells me that:
A) They made a small number of kits, relatively speaking, and
B) They really don't understand a fairly considerable chunk of their customer base.
A.) Would be a 'just as planned' scenario and therefore not surprising at all, imo. I find it far more likely thay had a substantial amount and then were blown out of the water by demand.
B is quite likely, given it's only been a year since things began changing in corporate.
Neronoxx wrote: Are you so bitter that you're actually claiming that playing the game has no factor in evaluating it?
No. Which is why I didn't, y'know, say that.
Neronoxx wrote: Anybody can react to leaked rules. Turns out, their reactions are usually wrong.
Usually wrong? By what metric.
Neronoxx wrote: Oh, so just by looking at the Kill Team rosters and few pages that have been released, you are able to quantify and evaluate a full ruleset?
If you can show me where I said that I'll be happy to reply. I don't think you'll be able to.
Helps to argue against what people actually say, not what you wish they'd said.
Neronoxx wrote: Silver Tower was so popular, GW released a second expansion to the main game incorporating more of what people had asked for. All I'm saying is if what you think of GW was true, then we wouldn't have seen that happen.
You failed to answer the question, so I'll repeat it:
"What precedent do you have to show that we'll get any more releases for this?"
Silver Tower wasn't released as a "limited release/as stocks last" release. It was released as a full release, and still is on sale. It's popularity saw them release expansions, sure, but that has nothing to do with this release. So answer the question, because Silver Tower - a non-limited product with clearly higher levels of support when initially released - does not set a precedent for Shadow War's release.
You know what does sent a precedent though? The Sanctus Reach box. Limited release. The Shield of Baal box. Limited release. But neither of these were advertised at a trade show as the next big thing. Shadow War was, and that's why people are annoyed. We thought that this was a new release that we'd be able to get, not something that would vanish in less than 1/2 an hour of going on sale.
Do you not get that yet?
Neronoxx wrote: Why? Because you said so? See above comments.
I'm not the one saying so. We've had comments in this thread of stockists, GW managers and even US Regional Managers being blindsided by this 'limited release'. You want me to see your above comments? How 'bout you see the rest of the thread since this box's release.
Neronoxx wrote: There actually is, try reading the comments. If that's too much work for you then I don't really know what to tell you.
An unsubstantiated comment by Atia (however relaible she is)... and basically silence from GW outside of them looking into maybe doing a digital release of the rules. That's it.
Neronoxx wrote: But really, do you have nothing better to do than attack people?
I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking your argument. I'm attacking your logic. You taking it personally is more of a "you" problem than a "me" problem.
rmeister0 wrote: All in all, though, the fact that people at GW seem to be "surprised" at how quickly Shadow War sold out tells me that:
A) They made a small number of kits, relatively speaking, and
B) They really don't understand a fairly considerable chunk of their customer base.
A.) Would be a 'just as planned' scenario and therefore not surprising at all, imo. I find it far more likely thay had a substantial amount and then were blown out of the water by demand.
B is quite likely, given it's only been a year since things began changing in corporate.
Well there restricting to 10per store and they sold the entire worldwide online direct stock in about 30mins so I am going to go out on a limb and say they just printed a very small run. Which is pretty strange considering they were pimping it pretty hard at one of the largest tradeshows, must have been some akward moments for reps when thay had to tell new any new traders.that thy could have 10 max.
One of the worst effects of GW getting stuff right more often is the resurgence of true believers who lack the critical thinking to distinguish between bashing and well founded criticisms.
Chikout wrote: I am not sure this is thread worthy, but I noticed this in white dwarf. New guard stuff incoming?
For context there was a similar hint about the Kharadron last month.
A little late to the party , but i was thinking about this earlier today. The Guard pretty much have all their tank options available if I remember correctly. Also i heard Cadia was destroyed in the last campaign books. This would be a really good opportunity to release a new plastic guard box in the proportions of the new GSC models. Steel Legion would be a good choice as they just put out SWA, and people have been asking for Trench coat guard for as long as I remember. Plus GW could put out a head sprue for Valhallan conversions.
Petty bickering and e-peen contests aside, I just came here to bitch and moan that I too am not going to be getting this. I suspect that just like Space Hulk, this will end up being re-released a few times though.
Well I know I made the effort to hit up my FLGS and managed to reserve myself a copy.
While I know a couple of my mates would of liked to get it as well.. we only really need 1 rulebook between the lot of us, and as we know the terrain is coming out separately it isn't a great loss
streetsamurai wrote: The game is basically necro with a few tweaks. If you played necro and read the informations that have been released, there is no need to play this game to have an opinion on the ruleset
Just last week I was listening to several members of the board state that Necromunda was indeed the best thing GW had ever done. Some of those same members are the ones stating that Shadow Wars is bad. It's mind boggling, but I guess part of the hobby is just blindly hating anything GW makes. In fact, I bet that new citadel War-ter causes cancer...
Some people that like Necro are criticizing SWA for some of the ridiculous streamlining and needless restrctions, but these 2 things are not mutually exclusive
Chikout wrote: I am not sure this is thread worthy, but I noticed this in white dwarf. New guard stuff incoming? For context there was a similar hint about the Kharadron last month.
A little late to the party , but i was thinking about this earlier today. The Guard pretty much have all their tank options available if I remember correctly. Also i heard Cadia was destroyed in the last campaign books. This would be a really good opportunity to release a new plastic guard box in the proportions of the new GSC models. Steel Legion would be a good choice as they just put out SWA, and people have been asking for Trench coat guard for as long as I remember. Plus GW could put out a head sprue for Valhallan conversions.
Aren't rules for Steel legion in SWA? Arent only models that have plastic minis in SWA (bar the steel legions)?
You might be into something
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Azreal13 wrote: One of the worst effects of GW getting stuff right more often is the resurgence of true believers who lack the critical thinking to distinguish between bashing and well founded criticisms.
Amen. This is really annoying. But then, I rebember that a lot of posters here are in fact kids
Grey Knight are limited to 3-5 per team and cannot ever recruit anyone else. That'd be fine, if it actually WAS possible to get to 5 man.
Justicar costs at least 275pts (the Warding Stave being the cheapest H2H weapon available)
A Grey Knight costs at least 200pts (same here)
Minimum for 5 woudl therefore be 1075.
Unless the specalists are to be included in that 5-man max? Besides, are they free? With no access to the rules, it's hard to figure that all out... /sigh
Apparently their are other ways to earn points, to get over the 200pt limit, so Grey Knights and Tyranids can in fact recruit more members, it's just extra hard.
Two ways known so far, rolling hidden cache for an extra 100pts and one of the Guerilla skills (scavenger) gives you a 50pt bonus per mission if the fighter hasn't gone out of action.
How do the Speical Ops work? Are they just special characters that you obtain as you move through the campaign... similar to the Special Characters in Necromunda?
Sorry... not familiar with either game. Just curious how important it is to grab them before playing.
eekamouse wrote: How do the Speical Ops work? Are they just special characters that you obtain as you move through the campaign... similar to the Special Characters in Necromunda?
Sorry... not familiar with either game. Just curious how important it is to grab them before playing.
You earn tokens through out the campaign that can be traded to use a Specialist for a game
eekamouse wrote: How do the Speical Ops work? Are they just special characters that you obtain as you move through the campaign... similar to the Special Characters in Necromunda?
Sorry... not familiar with either game. Just curious how important it is to grab them before playing.
You earn tokens through out the campaign that can be traded to use a Specialist for a game
Thank you. So just for one game? Interesting...I expect a lot of "counts as" here.
Thank you. So just for one game? Interesting...I expect a lot of "counts as" here.
Well with the previous skirmish games, it was a case you were 'encouraged' to convert your models as you progressed. (but they were all pretty much metal)
There is also a lot less option in this game compared to old, and with plastic minis being readily available, I do hope people will do some nice conversion for their team as the campaign progresses
Thank you. So just for one game? Interesting...I expect a lot of "counts as" here.
Well with the previous skirmish games, it was a case you were 'encouraged' to convert your models as you progressed. (but they were all pretty much metal)
There is also a lot less option in this game compared to old, and with plastic minis being readily available, I do hope people will do some nice conversion for their team as the campaign progresses
OK. That makes sense. Most boxes of the basic units come with 10 models, so shouldn't be too much to leave 2-3 aside to convert as needed.
streetsamurai wrote:
Aren't rules for Steel legion in SWA?
Arent only models that have plastic minis in SWA (bar the steel legions)?
You might be into something
I have heard (but have not seen) that the three types of IG that have skill tables in SWA are Cadians, Catachans, and Steel Legionnaires. If this is the case then I do believe they are the only models in the game (SWA) that do not have plastic models. That combined with that hint from the WD that Chikout posted (and I ineptly did not put in my quote by them) being about tanks rather than preparing Infantry, I think it could make sense. Also, the current Guard plastics (minus the command squads) have aged very poorly and are some of the oldest core troops in the game at this point.
Hmm... it'd really only require 3 boxes (Infantry, Command, Heavy Weapon). Not a huge release and very easy to do.
I think all things point to it being a very reasonable release, they could even just through the Command bits in with the Infantry box if they decided to be lazy (you don't really need more than a standard, a vox, a medikit, a few different heads, and couple different weapon arms). I would be rather happy to get some Guard infantry that are proportioned like the very nice new GSC hybrids. My old guard army when I played 40k was Steel Legion too, as they are probably my favorite regiment GW has put together (barring maybe Elysians......and Vostroyans are pretty cool too actually...).
A Steel legion plastic kit or two would be very cool. If the can be made compatible with the skitarii and gsc neophytes it opens up lots of possibilities for unique looking guard armies.
In the end it is much better for a company to make 10,000 copies of a product and sell out than to make 100,000 copies and only sell 50,000.
Not necessarily. The tipping point is going to vary significantly depending on a whole host of factors like production costs, storage costs, overheads... and what you do with those leftover 50000 copies. If your production costs are negligible (less than 2% of the overall cost, according to some of GW's previous financial reports) then it's very easy to imagine a scenario where it would be more profitable to produce the 100,000 copies and just bin whatever doesn't sell.
This whole thing is why market research is important... the constant failure to meet market demand shows someone is failing at their job and should have investors up in arms. If they are planning a release around only 10,000 copies and then realize the demand is higher they should be bending over backwards to make more as the original release of 10,000 will have already absorbed the R&D costs and the great majory of overhead costs... so each kit beyond that initial 10,000 is as profitable as the sale of 2 from that initial 10,000.
JustaerinAtTheWall wrote:Do you guys possibly think there will be a separate release option with just the rules? Potentially a downloadable PDF?
I spoke in person with a GW-USA sales manager yesterday. He said the rules will be available online and that they'll probably be free.
I would imagine for the corporate side of the business, presenting this game at one of the biggest trade shows for the industry in the world, to pull in new retailers and then offering them 10 each to sell would more likely be the bit where people lose jobs.
Because its as unprofessional and ill planned as you can get.
You don't use a limited run game as an entry for stockists. Especially when you fail to mention it is limited run at any point before they order it.
New IG kits would be super unexpected and highly welcome.
In WD they're teasing new minis done by Maxime Corbeil in the 4 Generals article (and if they're as well done as his conversions and paintjobs, oh my, look at his freaking Skaven army) and one of his opponents does Guard. Looong shot, but when we're speculating on WD blurbs, why not.
NoggintheNog wrote:I would imagine for the corporate side of the business, presenting this game at one of the biggest trade shows for the industry in the world, to pull in new retailers and then offering them 10 each to sell would more likely be the bit where people lose jobs.
I can tell you from experience that managers are waaaaaaay more likely to be sacked for overproducing and tying up resources on dead stock than for underestimating demand and temporarily running out. Any sales manager's worst fear is being stuck with 6 figures worth of Dreadfleet boxes that will never shift, even at a loss. When products beat the forecast and demand is still strong, that's when they open the champagne and cash the bonus cheques.
Keep in mind this release will also have been competing for distribution resources against a range of other new products (Gathering Storm, AoS, 8E, Blood Bowl etc), against restocking existing items, and all the key sourcing decisions involved would almost certainly have been made last year; well before SWA was public knowledge and demand could be properly gauged. GW isn't some pharmaceutical company where customers die if insulin is delivered a week late. Instead, the worst case scenario is some entitled nerd whining into the Internet at needing to wait a few extra days for their toys.
Although when you sit and think about it, no one is really missing out on much:
New terrain - already announced as being available the following week
Scouts and Ork models have been available forever - you can literally go buy them right now
The various dice, templates and cards are all things that either aren't essential or can be available elsewhere in some form
The only thing missing are the new rules, which I have no doubt we will see news on soon. So let's all chill the fluff out and paint some spacemans instead of angryposting about getting total strangers fired.
aka_mythos wrote: the constant failure to meet market demand shows someone is failing at their job and should have investors up in arms.
Citation needed, as I'm struggling to remember which releases GW "constantly" struggled to meet demand for.
I am not sure why people discussing the failures of GW are always deemed angry or salty, one does not need to be ranting or raving to see certain flaws, even the best companies make mistakes, I guess some folk just dont like this to be pointed out.
NoggintheNog wrote:I would imagine for the corporate side of the business, presenting this game at one of the biggest trade shows for the industry in the world, to pull in new retailers and then offering them 10 each to sell would more likely be the bit where people lose jobs.
I can tell you from experience that managers are waaaaaaay more likely to be sacked for overproducing and tying up resources on dead stock than for underestimating demand and temporarily running out. Any sales manager's worst fear is being stuck with 6 figures worth of Dreadfleet boxes that will never shift, even at a loss. When products beat the forecast and demand is still strong, that's when they open the champagne and cash the bonus cheques.
Keep in mind this release will also have been competing for distribution resources against a range of other new products (Gathering Storm, AoS, 8E, Blood Bowl etc), against restocking existing items, and all the key sourcing decisions involved would almost certainly have been made last year; well before SWA was public knowledge and demand could be properly gauged. GW isn't some pharmaceutical company where customers die if insulin is delivered a week late. Instead, the worst case scenario is some entitled nerd whining into the Internet at needing to wait a few extra days for their toys.
Although when you sit and think about it, no one is really missing out on much:
New terrain - already announced as being available the following week
Scouts and Ork models have been available forever - you can literally go buy them right now
The various dice, templates and cards are all things that either aren't essential or can be available elsewhere in some form
The only thing missing are the new rules, which I have no doubt we will see news on soon. So let's all chill the fluff out and paint some spacemans instead of angryposting about getting total strangers fired.
I agree with a lot of that, your worst case scenario is way off base though.
At the far end of the scale, some people will flatly refuse to buy anything from GW ever again, especially as this is not the first time this sort of thing has happened, if you read this forum regularly, you would have seen that this does happen, as does people moving on and refusing to buy the game at a later date.
GW makes most money from splash releases, next week lots of customers will be after something else and will not be interested in buying shadow war ever again, this is also worse than your " worst case Scenario ".
Personally, I would buy or download the rules if they are released, but I am not going to be interested in buying a box with old scouts or orcs in anymore as I have already spent the money allotted for shadow war on something else, I could be tempted to buy some of the awesome looking terrain again at some point in the future, in small amounts, if it does not sell out in ten minutes that is...
Citation needed, as I'm struggling to remember which releases GW "constantly" struggled to meet demand for.
This has happened quite a bit, to date I have not been able to buy any of the blood bowl pitches or any of the dice and even some of the scenery pieces sold out in the twenty minutes it takes for me to get home on saturday morning. I am not particularly bothered about it, but they are missing out on a fair bit of cash, I assume that I am not the only customer trying to get this stuff.
No one will be sacked for this. Seriously, people, there's some undue rage levels going on right now. The calls for sackings are more disgusting and out of proportion than a plastic Catachan. Eat a Snickers/get back in Synapse range/do whatever it is calms you down.
Rayvon wrote: I am not sure why people discussing the failures of GW are always deemed angry or salty, one does not need to be ranting or raving to see certain flaws, even the best companies make mistakes, I guess some folk just dont like this to be pointed out.
Because it's easier to say "You're just salty!" or "You're a hater!" than it is to try to argue a coherent point.
NoggintheNog wrote:I would imagine for the corporate side of the business, presenting this game at one of the biggest trade shows for the industry in the world, to pull in new retailers and then offering them 10 each to sell would more likely be the bit where people lose jobs.
Although when you sit and think about it, no one is really missing out on much:
New terrain - already announced as being available the following week
Scouts and Ork models have been available forever - you can literally go buy them right now
The various dice, templates and cards are all things that either aren't essential or can be available elsewhere in some form
The only thing missing are the new rules, which I have no doubt we will see news on soon. So let's all chill the fluff out and paint some spacemans instead of angryposting about getting total strangers fired.
.
New terrain- available in separate kits, that when brought total more than the base game. Its one thing to add to a set of terrain, another thing to have to buy it all from scratch at a higher cost.
Old models- maybe, but more orks is always welcome to ork players. I have never painted a space marine, I would have painted the scouts, and more than likely brought more models to go with them if they were fun. Plus again, how much is it to buy the two boxes on minis as well as the terrain, compared to getting the boxset.
Dice and gubbinz- The first time I saw this game being showed off, they said it was a going to be a great starting point for new players that want start 40k. How many new players will be put off buy having to first spend more money to buy just the base terrain + minis, only to be told you need to source the tokens and dice from some where else. Its great if you have been in to 40k for a long time, and have dice every where. Not so good for someone getting back in to it or starting outright.
I can tell you from experience that managers are waaaaaaay more likely to be sacked for overproducing and tying up resources on dead stock than for underestimating demand and temporarily running out. .
Except, again, it's not a matter of 'temporarily running out' when the product is intended as a single, one-and-done release.
Dice and gubbinz- The first time I saw this game being showed off, they said it was a going to be a great starting point for new players that want start 40k.
Yup, there's nothing like a limited edition set that they can no longer buy for getting newcomers into gaming...
NoggintheNog wrote:I would imagine for the corporate side of the business, presenting this game at one of the biggest trade shows for the industry in the world, to pull in new retailers and then offering them 10 each to sell would more likely be the bit where people lose jobs.
I can tell you from experience that managers are waaaaaaay more likely to be sacked for overproducing and tying up resources on dead stock than for underestimating demand and temporarily running out..
Great.
Now lets talk about the situation we have here rather than one you just invented.
They went to a trade show to attract new retailers, they used this game, billed as a gateway for the entire range, to entice people. Neither at the event itself, nor in any of the 4 week of marketing going into this produc for customers, was it mentioned, at all, it was a limited edition one time only release.
Until it was released. Now, its a one shot deal with a limited run.
That is a huge issue for corporate, because its a complete disconnect between marketing and production at a level that is hard to comprehend in any competent business. It won;t be marketing losing jobs (unless they ignored the limited edition nature purposely) it will be whoever made the choice of a limited run one shot game in production without informing marketing, and seeing reactions from GWs own store management, anyone in their own retail department.
There is a problem somewhere, and for a company about to role out an entire new edition of their core product, its something they need to fix very quickly.
I still don't see the fascination people seem to have with stock still being on shelves/warehouses. Surely this is needed to some degree.
If I buy and get into a new game. I want that game on the shelves or at least available somehow. I hate it when a pal comes round, has a new game of something then says he wants to get into it himself. Only to be told that it's no longer available, or those figues were limited edition or something. The way people talk on this forum, it's like GW need to hit some magical sales number where exactly the amount of people that want it, get it and there's no longer stock left costing them money idle on shelves.
I still think the way GW have handled this game is poor. All it needs is a cheap softback book available in stores. Then anyone wanting to get into the GW universe, can buy a cheap rulebook and a single plastic box of figures and off they go. They then slowly build up to full on 40k. Gateway gaming. How are GW so blind to this. Do they really believe that everyone is a little Timmy whose parents spend the massive amount to get into 40k in one giant go.
I find it weird that they haven't posted a downloadable roster sheet yet. Or have I missed it?
I know it isn't out yet but the faction rules are so why not give us a roster?
Welp, I have been industriously hoarding leaks, and it seems the only thing we haven't seen screenshots of is the missions and the skills tables. Or have those been posted at some point?
Gimgamgoo wrote: I still don't see the fascination people seem to have with stock still being on shelves/warehouses. Surely this is needed to some degree.
You only want stock that you think you're going to sell. GW presumably have better data on their own sales projections than you do (although they've admitted that in this case their projections were wrong, and they're looking at their options). Unsold stock with little chance of being sold is just a waste of money, and an ongoing cost to your business.
I still think the way GW have handled this game is poor. All it needs is a cheap softback book available in stores. Then anyone wanting to get into the GW universe, can buy a cheap rulebook and a single plastic box of figures and off they go. They then slowly build up to full on 40k. Gateway gaming. How are GW so blind to this. Do they really believe that everyone is a little Timmy whose parents spend the massive amount to get into 40k in one giant go.
GW introduces game that lowers the cost of entry to 40k, Gimgamgoo complains because they didn't hit a home run right out of the gate by also making it available as a softback book. Strong rumour is that they're going to make the rules a free PDF in the next few weeks. Hardly seems worth throwing a fit over.
I still think the way GW have handled this game is poor. All it needs is a cheap softback book available in stores. Then anyone wanting to get into the GW universe, can buy a cheap rulebook and a single plastic box of figures and off they go. They then slowly build up to full on 40k. Gateway gaming. How are GW so blind to this. Do they really believe that everyone is a little Timmy whose parents spend the massive amount to get into 40k in one giant go.
GW introduces game that lowers the cost of entry to 40k, Gimgamgoo complains because they didn't hit a home run right out of the gate by also making it available as a softback book. Strong rumour is that they're going to make the rules a free PDF in the next few weeks. Hardly seems worth throwing a fit over.
A few points...
1. GW hasn't (yet) introduced a game that lowers the cost of entry to 40k. I expect only die hard 40k/necromunda fans managed to purchase SWA and not many that would be new blood to the hobby.
2. PDF's aren't useful to everyone. Quite a few people still like real books.
3. That was hardly a "fit". Several people I know do have fits and need a lot of medication/medical care.
Hopefully, GW will at least produce more of the printed rulebook, especially when the terrain becomes available.
So, has anybody created teams yet with what's out and about right now? Still hoping for an Ork list that's less blurry, as I need to create something for my brother to get started with.
I've managed to create something that's pretty close to how they represent the Militarum Tempestus in this game (only thing I can't get is the photo-visor), plus it gives me a great opportunity to do something I've been wanting to do since I saw art of it in the 3rd edition Imperial Guard codex, but can now do legally since the rules allow for it:
If GW do release the rules in either a physical or digital format then Shadow War could be used as an entry mode but it would be a lot easier to do it when everything is packaged together.
(you could make them in regular 40K as Veterans with Grenadier upgrade, in case you want a carapace squad with shotties - no hotshot mix obvs but would allow you to make more)
aka_mythos wrote:
the constant failure to meet market demand shows someone is failing at their job and should have investors up in arms.
Citation needed, as I'm struggling to remember which releases GW "constantly" struggled to meet demand for.
I don't need to cite anything because I've experienced it first hand...
Off the top of my head the following sold out while on preorder or within the first month of release:
Void shield generator
Plasma Obliterator
A number of WHFB end times releases
A number of different faction branded dice
A number of Blood Bowl releases
Battletome Bonespitterz
Triumvirate of the Imperium
Imperial Space Marine
Battle Cannoness Veridyan
While many of these were eventually restocked, GW has not been shy about the fact that the peak of sales for an item occurs during the first 3 months of its release and dictates its overall profitability... a shortage no mattee how temporary negatively sales at a crucial time in their sales cycle. I'm sure there are more.
Additional ones I found:
Apocrypha books
Deathwatch Terminator Captain
Deathwatch bikers
Liquid green stuff
I can tell you from experience that managers are waaaaaaay more likely to be sacked for overproducing and tying up resources on dead stock than for underestimating demand and temporarily running out. .
Except, again, it's not a matter of 'temporarily running out' when the product is intended as a single, one-and-done release.
Dice and gubbinz- The first time I saw this game being showed off, they said it was a going to be a great starting point for new players that want start 40k.
Yup, there's nothing like a limited edition set that they can no longer buy for getting newcomers into gaming...
Is this for real? It's honestly a limited release? I haven't read anything from Games Workshop to that effect, and I can't find anything on Google about it either.
If that's true, and they're legitimately not restocking these sets, then I don't see how anyone could defend GW in this instance. That's a straight up mistake, money left on the table. I would have bought one for sure, and my Facebook has been blowing up this week with folks itching to buy a copy that haven't bought anything 40k in more than a year.
And it was supposed to be... a starter set? Huh? Sounds like some of the GW employees at this trade show were talking out of their arses.
I can tell you from experience that managers are waaaaaaay more likely to be sacked for overproducing and tying up resources on dead stock than for underestimating demand and temporarily running out. .
Except, again, it's not a matter of 'temporarily running out' when the product is intended as a single, one-and-done release.
Dice and gubbinz- The first time I saw this game being showed off, they said it was a going to be a great starting point for new players that want start 40k.
Yup, there's nothing like a limited edition set that they can no longer buy for getting newcomers into gaming...
Is this for real? It's honestly a limited release? I haven't read anything from Games Workshop to that effect, and I can't find anything on Google about it either.
If that's true, and they're legitimately not restocking these sets, then I don't see how anyone could defend GW in this instance. That's a straight up mistake, money left on the table. I would have bought one for sure, and my Facebook has been blowing up this week with folks itching to buy a copy that haven't bought anything 40k in more than a year.
And it was supposed to be... a starter set? Huh? Sounds like some of the GW employees at this trade show were talking out of their arses.
In a surprise to everyone, it does indeed seem to have been a limited release - whilst stocks last on the website.
But changing messages over the weekend on their official FB feed means there is some hope that silly decisions will be changed!
I'd be fine if they wanted to sell the rules separately or have a PDF, and sell the terrain separately too. I don't need the box set, I have 2 necromuda sets worth of terrain that's still in good shape so I don't really need it, I just care about having the rules.
What do people think about the new movement stats - have they got it about right with the fluff? Tyranids look to be one of the few armies with different moves for different units.
Necros wrote: I'd be fine if they wanted to sell the rules separately or have a PDF, and sell the terrain separately too. I don't need the box set, I have 2 necromuda sets worth of terrain that's still in good shape so I don't really need it, I just care about having the rules.
RFHolloway wrote: What do people think about the new movement stats - have they got it about right with the fluff? Tyranids look to be one of the few armies with different moves for different units.
A lot of the specialists have some handy fast movement, kind of surprised dark eldar move faster than normal eldar.
Liking that the Solitaire has an even more ridiculous statline than it did back in 2nd edition.
RFHolloway wrote: What do people think about the new movement stats - have they got it about right with the fluff? Tyranids look to be one of the few armies with different moves for different units.
They have just reverted back to old 40kMA stats, so they should fit nicely to those that remember. I've not seen Eldar stats though (trying to avoid spoilers for when I open the box on Friday!), are they MA5?
RFHolloway wrote: What do people think about the new movement stats - have they got it about right with the fluff? Tyranids look to be one of the few armies with different moves for different units.
They have just reverted back to old 40kMA stats, so they should fit nicely to those that remember. I've not seen Eldar stats though (trying to avoid spoilers for when I open the box on Friday!), are they MA5?
1. GW hasn't (yet) introduced a game that lowers the cost of entry to 40k. I expect only die hard 40k/necromunda fans managed to purchase SWA and not many that would be new blood to the hobby.
2. PDF's aren't useful to everyone. Quite a few people still like real books.
3. That was hardly a "fit". Several people I know do have fits and need a lot of medication/medical care.
Hopefully, GW will at least produce more of the printed rulebook, especially when the terrain becomes available.
1) The original 'Kill Team' did just that (although i now notice that that's entirely disappeared from the webstore.)
2) 100%.
Vorian wrote: I'm thinking about running Orks - the low BS looks like it'll be pretty brutal. Hitting on 7s when targeting heavy cover.
Ignoring the heavier weapons for a swarm of Yoof Shootas seems the best option at the moment, unless there is a cap I haven't seen somewhere
I think there's a cap of 10 - 13 models somewhere in the rules, with the option to field more models depending on the mission.
I think that's for missions with variable members turning up - say 2D6 turn up normal, the Orks would have 2d6 + 2, but selected from their normal roster.
I was thinking a Boss, 11 yoof shootas and some toys for the Boss to fill it out.
As for Dark Eldar vs Eldar movement. It's more the type of units selected. Banshees would be 6 too, while you see Scourge base movement is 5
So, in an attempt to add a slightly outsider perspective to the conversation, here's how I've viewed Shadow War: Armageddon as someone who started playing GW games over 20 years ago but completely left the GW bubble in 2012 and has stuck to the greater wargaming hobby as a whole ever since:
I follow GW news only inasmuch as it pops up in my usual wargaming news feeds. As such, I've been hearing that GW has been "getting better" over the last year or so, but a cursory glance at their prices and practices tells me they're still not what I consider "good" compared to other companies in the hobby. But now it seems like they're pushing a new "entry level" skirmish game at GAMA, to help get people into 40K with just one plastic box. That is good! And its based on the 2e rules, specifically the variant from Necromunda, and will use 40K factions instead of gangs! I need to parse the individual parts of my reaction to that:
* I have very fond memories of playing Necromunda.
* I mostly played WHFB at the time and didn't go fully into 40K until 3e, but I did dabble with 2e. And man, all of the best 40K war stories come out of the clunky charm of the 2e ruleset.
* I still haven't gotten around to eBaying off my Eldar yet, and I also have a box or two of Chaos Marines left over from my last, "Maybe what I need is the new perspective of a new army," attempt to stay interested in the game. That should be enough to try this game out with just an eBayed rulebook and my already existing terrain. Oh, and hey, look at that, they finally put Genestealer Cult models out again!
* I wanted exactly this game concept so badly 20 years ago.
So, now I'm somewhat curious and interested. So I start following the news, mainly here, but also on other boards and venues. And over this past weekend, the PDF with Eldar, Chaos, and Genestealer Cult lists dropped, so I got a chance to look them over. And the pre-order went up, and immediately sold out of the limited run stock. So, now I'm left with these observations:
* Despite the GAMA claims of being an entry-level starter, this was a limited edition, with fewer units produced than the (clearly unexpected by GW) high demand.
* The team lists are really rather simplistic, obviously designed to use 1-2 plastic boxes and no more, with the option of using a very limited, pre-defined spec-op from this exact list of 3-4 per list. Now, don't get me wrong, I definitely see the pros to doing it this way, especially given the idea this would be entry level. A single box set and some terrain, and off you go? Great! But...limiting the base list to only 1-2 specific core box sets limits access to the variety that is one of 40K's (few, in my opinion) strengths. It wouldn't hurt much to allow a few specialists from other box sets into the core list, as an option. Keep the strengths of being able to make a perfectly strong team from one box, allow the option to include other plastic boxes just for funsies.
* The (somewhat unexpected) "while stocks last" listing in the webstore preorder, plus the drastic under-supply that allows them to sell out within 15 minutes per region rings big ol' alarm bells to me that this box and the pdf is all they had planned for this game. Maaaaaaaybe one or two more lists in each White Dwarf for maaaaybe up to 3 issues, but then it'd be time for whatever new campaign pack or new edition or new limited release box game or new three-grots-driving-Space-Marine-power-armor subfaction release is in the pipeline. Which is a shame, because the best solution to the above point's problem would be to continuously churn out new lists for every conceivable plastic box set. "Here's a variant Chaos list that combines the new Thousand Sons box and the Tzaangors box into a Kill Team!" etc, etc.
* Following on the above point, I imagine that even if the (mysteriously) unexpected demand prompts extra support in the future, it'll probably be rushed and slap-dash. Extra lists will probably be only slightly play-tested, if at all, in the rush to pretend that this game wasn't intended to be dumped out and moved on from. No personnel will be assigned to it, but it'll just be left to whoever can think of a new thing to do with the game who will be allowed to knock the new thing together so they can put it online or in White Dwarf. New lists could have been planned out to be a new, anticipated feature article in White Dwarf akin to the 3e Adeptus Astartes article series, but no...they were just gonna toss this out to fill a hole in their release schedule, and any new development will be unplanned and thrown together.
So, while there was a real chance that this release could have brought me back in (like the new Warhammer Quests,) it was handled in such a way to be almost but not quite what I needed it to be to do so (like the new Warhammer Quests.) While I'll happily acknowledge that GW does seem to be getting better, compared to other wargaming companies I'm engaged with now, they've only caught up enough to finally reappear in my rear view mirror. Everything about this release, I approached with hope, but it just disappointed me - especially all the signs that say that I nearly blundered into another one-off that no one at GW will even remember having released in a year and a half. So, at this point, I realize I have three other, better options to do what I wanted to do with Shadow War as far as wargaming goes:
1) Dig out my 2e codeces and Necromunda rulebook, multiply the 40K points by 10 and use 'credits' as 'requisition points', and play 2e Necromunda 40K with my 20 year old rulebooks and templates.
2) Stat the relevant models up in Rogue Stars and play that ruleset instead.
3) Forget the 40K models, continue with the plans to flog them on eBay, and keep working on Deadzone, Warpath, and Frostgrave.
2 and 3 are definitely the strongest contenders.
So, basically, my expatriate perspective is this: GW hyped up a release that might have brought me back in as a paying customer. But they failed to follow through on that hype. Further, their continued insistence on avoiding market research led them to continue to show signs of not understanding what their customers are interested in. They continue to show signs of not following up on these box game releases to the standards I am used to with other wargame companies. I see signs of GW's talked-about improvement, but "better" isn't "good enough" yet. It'd be nice if it got there someday, but today is not yet that day. I'm a little disappointed, but I also have more money that I can spend with other companies to get more bang for my wargaming buck. Oh well, maybe next time.
Everyone's on here arguing about economic theory of limited print runs and I'm just sitting here curled up in the fetal position around my copies of 1st edition Necromunda gently rocking from side to side.
Vorian wrote: I'm thinking about running Orks - the low BS looks like it'll be pretty brutal. Hitting on 7s when targeting heavy cover.
Ignoring the heavier weapons for a swarm of Yoof Shootas seems the best option at the moment, unless there is a cap I haven't seen somewhere
I think there's a cap of 10 - 13 models somewhere in the rules, with the option to field more models depending on the mission.
I think that's for missions with variable members turning up - say 2D6 turn up normal, the Orks would have 2d6 + 2, but selected from their normal roster.
I was thinking a Boss, 11 yoof shootas and some toys for the Boss to fill it out.
Could indeed be the case yeah, Genestealers have the same rule come to think of it.
One way to negate the low BS is to get in close and use red-dot laser sights, which give +1 to ranged rolls, but also a 6++ save because of the red dot.
* The (somewhat unexpected) "while stocks last" listing in the webstore preorder, plus the drastic under-supply that allows them to sell out within 15 minutes per region rings big ol' alarm bells to me that this box and the pdf is all they had planned for this game. Maaaaaaaybe one or two more lists in each White Dwarf for maaaaybe up to 3 issues, but then it'd be time for whatever new campaign pack or new edition or new limited release box game or new three-grots-driving-Space-Marine-power-armor subfaction release is in the pipeline. Which is a shame, because the best solution to the above point's problem would be to continuously churn out new lists for every conceivable plastic box set. "Here's a variant Chaos list that combines the new Thousand Sons box and the Tzaangors box into a Kill Team!" etc, etc.
* Following on the above point, I imagine that even if the (mysteriously) unexpected demand prompts extra support in the future, it'll probably be rushed and slap-dash. Extra lists will probably be only slightly play-tested, if at all, in the rush to pretend that this game wasn't intended to be dumped out and moved on from. No personnel will be assigned to it, but it'll just be left to whoever can think of a new thing to do with the game who will be allowed to knock the new thing together so they can put it online or in White Dwarf. New lists could have been planned out to be a new, anticipated feature article in White Dwarf akin to the 3e Adeptus Astartes article series, but no...they were just gonna toss this out to fill a hole in their release schedule, and any new development will be unplanned and thrown together.
An interesting point. GW have never handled looking after games very well, after the general release of items. I had fully expected there to have been way more stuff brought out for silvertower before hammefell was released. I was sure there would be at least one small add one set- like a book or small boxset, as well as white dwarf being jammed packed with new rules. Instead we got rules for a couple of new heroes, to help sell a handful of hero minis and then they put out a game that pretty much replaced it.
Though I've been quite- well cross is too strong a word, but its more than being annoyed, I was after all really looking forward to this game, I think this is pretty much why I'm not so bothered now. At the end of the day, it looks like it was never meant to have been a full release, and even if it was, I doubt we would have seen an expansion for it, other than maybe a couple of new kill teams in white dwarf, to cover what ever minis come out over the next 3 months.
I'd love to have had a game I actually wanted to start playing again, one that I could use my Inq warbands in quite happily, but looks like it wont be this game. I'll probably pick up a couple of the terrain sets on sale some where as cheap as I can, but might just stick to finishing off my 6mm/epic scale Inquisitor set I was working on last year. Cheaper, and it will continue to be fully supported in the future (as I support it myself! )
Its end of play monday, and still no word from GW, unless I have missed it, I would have thought they would have at least popped up a 'we chatted about over the watercooler, laughed at the pile of money you gave us, we will get back to you *Sometime* when we know if we are going to bother reprinting the game". But no, nothing. And yes, a time frame for them to solve this has to be more than 24 hours, but a friendly message would have been enough today, especially as they have been posting rumor engine and painting guides.
What a huge blunder. I like that GW has changed their approach to the creative side of the company, and the marketing side, but they can't seem to get the business part right.
Making this a while stocks last product is stupid. Only making enough stock to last a few minutes is even stupider.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The worst part is that making it "while stocks last" makes it absolutely clear that this won't be any sort of gateway into 40K or way to start small. Because it isn't going to be around very long. Like Silver Tower or Deathwatch: Overkill, they have no intention or desire for people to still be playing this game a year from now.
Vorian wrote: I'm thinking about running Orks - the low BS looks like it'll be pretty brutal. Hitting on 7s when targeting heavy cover.
Ignoring the heavier weapons for a swarm of Yoof Shootas seems the best option at the moment, unless there is a cap I haven't seen somewhere
I think there's a cap of 10 - 13 models somewhere in the rules, with the option to field more models depending on the mission.
I think that's for missions with variable members turning up - say 2D6 turn up normal, the Orks would have 2d6 + 2, but selected from their normal roster.
I was thinking a Boss, 11 yoof shootas and some toys for the Boss to fill it out.
Could indeed be the case yeah, Genestealers have the same rule come to think of it.
One way to negate the low BS is to get in close and use red-dot laser sights, which give +1 to ranged rolls, but also a 6++ save because of the red dot.
Yeah, but that is a lot of credits for not actually much more hitting power.
I think the actual way to go is run straight at them and swamp them in loads of shots from within 12 inches (for the +1) and charge them if they get too close.
Don't worry folks, the box set is a limited release. The skirmish rules from this game sound very similar to what was teased to be part of 8th edition. Remember the terminator captain limited model (limited only as part of a box set), who was released in another box set and a blister later?
I'm guessing this was a quick cash grab before 8th edition, to test the waters and see how it sells/get feedback. They said 8th edition would have apocalypse type tournament play (like 7th edition with fliers, superheavy, etc), old 40k style play, and a skirmish mode... a skirmish mode just like this. Fear not, besides many of us who got suckered into paying $150 for a rulebook, we will see skirmish rules again. Not to mention, I'm sure the entire rules will get leaked online like kill team.
If someone really wants the limited box set with limited terrain that bad, they can purchase mine (without the rule book of course )
The worst part is that making it "while stocks last" makes it absolutely clear that this won't be any sort of gateway into 40K or way to start small. Because it isn't going to be around very long. Like Silver Tower or Deathwatch: Overkill, they have no intention or desire for people to still be playing this game a year from now.
Which, TBF, is always how it worked. New big box, decent sized expansion, some tertiary miniature releases and WD support for a while, then the next year another big box came around and the whole process started again.
It's just back in the day, one could be fairly sure of buying what you wanted for the whole of that time period.
The game looks cool, but pretty disappointing in terms of army selection options. I'll probably just stick to Kill Team and see how it works under the 8th Edition rules.
Binabik15 wrote: New IG kits would be super unexpected and highly welcome.
Not nearly as unexpected and welcome as a Codex that didn't suck, for a game engine that's as smooth and simple as AoS.
I already own more IG than I could ever play, but their rules are so lackluster that it's kinda pointless. Give me an IG Codex that is competitive in game system that isn't overbloated with nonsense features and hair-splitty rules, and I'll be very happy.
Starting to put together a Necron kill team. Saddened by the fact that all those fun praetorian weapons are only for specops who only get to show up for a single game before being sent back to base or wherever it is they're hanging out.
If this does take off, I'm sure we'll be seeing new unit setups in White Dwarf from here on out.
zerosignal wrote: Wow, everyone's just going crazy here... they'll just print more, they clearly didn't expect the demand to be so high.
GW can't print more.
The components that made this a "limited" set(box, counters, and rulebook/reference guides) were all done by a printing company elsewhere.
If it were something as simple as they needed more Scout Sniper sprues or the terrain, it would be a totally different story. That's all stuff within their control.
GW can't print more. The components that made this a "limited" set(box, counters, and rulebook/reference guides) were all done by a printing company elsewhere.
GW can't print more. The components that made this a "limited" set(box, counters, and rulebook/reference guides) were all done by a printing company elsewhere.
So GW will pay them to do another run?
The doomsday angst is real.
I'm sure that there will be another run of the counters and rulebook.
I'm not sure that there will be another run of Shadow War: Armageddon.
Also, GW has to get space at the printers/card companies.
455_PWR wrote: Don't worry folks, the box set is a limited release. The skirmish rules from this game sound very similar to what was teased to be part of 8th edition. Remember the terminator captain limited model (limited only as part of a box set), who was released in another box set and a blister later?
I'm guessing this was a quick cash grab before 8th edition, to test the waters and see how it sells/get feedback. They said 8th edition would have apocalypse type tournament play (like 7th edition with fliers, superheavy, etc), old 40k style play, and a skirmish mode... a skirmish mode just like this. Fear not, besides many of us who got suckered into paying $150 for a rulebook, we will see skirmish rules again. Not to mention, I'm sure the entire rules will get leaked online like kill team.
If someone really wants the limited box set with limited terrain that bad, they can purchase mine (without the rule book of course )
I was thinking this exact same way, in that it was probibly a field test of some of the new rules sets that were being discussed for a while now. Just because it is supposedly a "Limited release" doesn't mean what people think it means, when the AOSification of 40K comes, and thiese start being the new 'Skirmish rules set" that was alluded to.
Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
Grot 6 wrote: Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
True and false. The game has more rules than GW can manage, which hurts the uptake. AoS grew well, so the simplified rules aren't a hindrance to ultimate sales.
The price range isn't really a turn off. GW just sold out of $130 SWA boxed sets containing a mere 5 Scouts and 10 Boyz. In a matter of hours. The $130 price point didn't appear to hurt sales at all.
Grot 6 wrote: Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
True and false. The game has more rules than GW can manage, which hurts the uptake. AoS grew well, so the simplified rules aren't a hindrance to ultimate sales.
The price range isn't really a turn off. GW just sold out of $130 SWA boxed sets containing a mere 5 Scouts and 10 Boyz. In a matter of hours. The $130 price point didn't appear to hurt sales at all.
I was alluding to new players buy in. How is your ratio of new players to old, in your area?
Grot 6 wrote: Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
The price range isn't really a turn off. GW just sold out of $130 SWA boxed sets containing a mere 5 Scouts and 10 Boyz. In a matter of hours. The $130 price point didn't appear to hurt sales at all.
10 scouts, 10 boys and Terrain....Thee box set is ....a pretty good value in terms of what you get (depending on how much they sell terrain for..which..i feel will be alot.)
Grot 6 wrote: Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
The price range isn't really a turn off. GW just sold out of $130 SWA boxed sets containing a mere 5 Scouts and 10 Boyz. In a matter of hours. The $130 price point didn't appear to hurt sales at all.
10 scouts, 10 boys and Terrain....Thee box set is ....a pretty good value in terms of what you get (depending on how much they sell terrain for..which..i feel will be alot.)
We already know the prices on the two scenery pieces.
$50 and $70.
It was always going to be a thing that sold well simply because of the leaked price points for the terrain.
Grot 6 wrote: Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
True and false. The game has more rules than GW can manage, which hurts the uptake. AoS grew well, so the simplified rules aren't a hindrance to ultimate sales.
The price range isn't really a turn off. GW just sold out of $130 SWA boxed sets containing a mere 5 Scouts and 10 Boyz. In a matter of hours. The $130 price point didn't appear to hurt sales at all.
I was alluding to new players buy in. How is your ratio of new players to old, in your area?
We're all old; but even if we weren't, the buy-in isn't an issue. It's not like we're poor to get what we want. I just got my CC statement with my KD:M PM adds.
Incidentally, I just wanted to share this observation... but having played probably 15 games of Shadow War over the last week (with the final rules you guys will be receiving in the box), I feel like I had a lightbulb moment as I reflected on my time with it so far.
Its subtle, but I think Shadow War has been designed for one-day leagues/tournaments. The changes from Necromunda, IMO have actually taken away some of its value as a long-form campaign system, but the game absolutely works fantastically when a group of friends plays for a whole day, in a rush to 15 Promethium Caches. Only in this format does its "injury" table make sense, along with its heavily cut down advancement/turf/credits systems.
Its ultra light on book keeping which makes for a great run of games, back-to-back.
That said, as I suspected my group will probably be slowly baking back in the more substantive Necromunda campaign/progression systems.
I've got about three peeps including myself signed up for some test games. As mentioned earlier, I want to see if the general consensus is to add in the Necromunda XP and Injuries - purely for myself, I always did enjoy the post game sequence for Necromunda and Mordheim.
It's possible it will also lead to a proper Necromunda campaign. Whilst we won't necessarily have the 'right' models, I'm sure we can get round that (for me, I'd like to use Genestealer Hybrids in place of say, Goliath, with their inherited strength and that)
Provided such transpositions all remain the same (so allGC gangs count as Goliath and so on, I don't foresee many issues,
I'm hoping the local store will actually do something with this for a change. It would be a pity if the tourney pack were to collect dust just every other pack the owner purchased for the store.
Grot 6 wrote: Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
True and false. The game has more rules than GW can manage, which hurts the uptake. AoS grew well, so the simplified rules aren't a hindrance to ultimate sales.
The price range isn't really a turn off. GW just sold out of $130 SWA boxed sets containing a mere 5 Scouts and 10 Boyz. In a matter of hours. The $130 price point didn't appear to hurt sales at all.
I was alluding to new players buy in. How is your ratio of new players to old, in your area?
We're all old; but even if we weren't, the buy-in isn't an issue. It's not like we're poor to get what we want. I just got my CC statement with my KD:M PM adds.
Grot 6 wrote: Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
True and false. The game has more rules than GW can manage, which hurts the uptake. AoS grew well, so the simplified rules aren't a hindrance to ultimate sales.
The price range isn't really a turn off. GW just sold out of $130 SWA boxed sets containing a mere 5 Scouts and 10 Boyz. In a matter of hours. The $130 price point didn't appear to hurt sales at all.
I was alluding to new players buy in. How is your ratio of new players to old, in your area?
We're all old; but even if we weren't, the buy-in isn't an issue. It's not like we're poor to get what we want. I just got my CC statement with my KD:M PM adds.
But that's kind of the point, isn't it? None of you are new players. You know what you want and what risks you're willing to take. As someone who has tried to get a fair number of my friends into table top gaming, with varying levels of success, I have to say that price is usually the first real deciding factor. There are plenty of people who will pay $30-$50 for a one player starter set to see if they like a game, few people are ready to drop $100+ to see if they like it or not.
That's part of what had me so excited about this. I have half a dozen friends who are interested in 40K, some who will play fairly large games with me. If I provide the miniatures for both sides. In part because they don't have time to build and paint armies with their own hobbies, and in part because they don't like it enough to drop a few hundred dollars on it. However, if I told them that they could spend ~$50, and play with an army of under ten models, they'd be happy to buy in. Hell, I got several of them more than interested in Blood Bowl and Frostgrave for the same reason.
40K having a true skirmish sized game to draw in new players unwilling to commit the time, money, and amount of effort required to make a proper 40K army is brilliant, and somewhat surprising that they took this long with it, frankly. The Start Collecting boxes were a good start, this is a good second step if it actually gets supported with more Kill Teams... Like those from the Start Collecting boxes in a lot of cases. I do feel that restricting the base Kill Teams to single boxes was a mistake and hope that it is one that gets rectified not long after the release of an actual, obtainable rulebook.
Grot 6 wrote: Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
True and false. The game has more rules than GW can manage, which hurts the uptake. AoS grew well, so the simplified rules aren't a hindrance to ultimate sales.
The price range isn't really a turn off. GW just sold out of $130 SWA boxed sets containing a mere 5 Scouts and 10 Boyz. In a matter of hours. The $130 price point didn't appear to hurt sales at all.
I was alluding to new players buy in. How is your ratio of new players to old, in your area?
We're all old; but even if we weren't, the buy-in isn't an issue. It's not like we're poor to get what we want. I just got my CC statement with my KD:M PM adds.
But that's kind of the point, isn't it? None of you are new players. You know what you want and what risks you're willing to take. As someone who has tried to get a fair number of my friends into table top gaming, with varying levels of success, I have to say that price is usually the first real deciding factor. There are plenty of people who will pay $30-$50 for a one player starter set to see if they like a game, few people are ready to drop $100+ to see if they like it or not.
That's part of what had me so excited about this. I have half a dozen friends who are interested in 40K, some who will play fairly large games with me. If I provide the miniatures for both sides. In part because they don't have time to build and paint armies with their own hobbies, and in part because they don't like it enough to drop a few hundred dollars on it. However, if I told them that they could spend ~$50, and play with an army of under ten models, they'd be happy to buy in. Hell, I got several of them more than interested in Blood Bowl and Frostgrave for the same reason.
40K having a true skirmish sized game to draw in new players unwilling to commit the time, money, and amount of effort required to make a proper 40K army is brilliant, and somewhat surprising that they took this long with it, frankly. The Start Collecting boxes were a good start, this is a good second step if it actually gets supported with more Kill Teams... Like those from the Start Collecting boxes in a lot of cases. I do feel that restricting the base Kill Teams to single boxes was a mistake and hope that it is one that gets rectified not long after the release of an actual, obtainable rulebook.
This is exactly where I'm at with it. I had five friends in my normal game group super excited to pick up some copies of this. They mostly play board games. Two of them are ex-40K, and ex-Necromunda players who have had wanted nothing to do with minis gaming for several years now. We were all excited to pick this up, throw our terrain and together and assemble some Kill Teams.
To all the people rightly bemoaning the horrible print volume GW put out: ask your FLGS? I called mine up and they don't get them until Wednesday, I went ahead and prepaid for one so your local stores might have one for you as well.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I think Shadow War has been designed for one-day leagues/tournaments. The changes from Necromunda, IMO have actually taken away some of its value as a long-form campaign system, but the game absolutely works fantastically when a group of friends plays for a whole day, in a rush to 15 Promethium Caches. Only in this format does its "injury" table make sense, along with its heavily cut down advancement/turf/credits systems.
Its ultra light on book keeping which makes for a great run of games, back-to-back.
Conceptually, it's nearly a real-time "campaign"? In that the events you play out over 12 hours would correspond to 12-ish hours in-game?
Grot 6 wrote: Even GW knows that the game is getting too big, and that the price range is the turn off point to getting little timmy to buy in.
True and false. The game has more rules than GW can manage, which hurts the uptake. AoS grew well, so the simplified rules aren't a hindrance to ultimate sales.
The price range isn't really a turn off. GW just sold out of $130 SWA boxed sets containing a mere 5 Scouts and 10 Boyz. In a matter of hours. The $130 price point didn't appear to hurt sales at all.
I was alluding to new players buy in. How is your ratio of new players to old, in your area?
We're all old; but even if we weren't, the buy-in isn't an issue. It's not like we're poor to get what we want. I just got my CC statement with my KD:M PM adds.
Buy-in is an issue. Even if the money isn't an issue.
If I quote someone a ballpark getting started figure for Infinity, Malifaux, Guildball, or many other games... GW products are more expensive by an order of magnitude.
If I put a Malifaux or Infinity model next to a modern GW model, maybe the GW model is on that level of quality.
Especially if I put a Malifaux or Infinity model next to some of GW's 20 year old garbage sculpts that is cast in absolute trash that is finecast... GW looks absurd. Especially since GW products are trapped in an aesthetic from an era where giant hands and bizarre anatomy is the rule. Put a Terminator model next to an Azra'il or Al Fasid model and tell me GW doesn't look the absolute fool.
Then I pull out the rulebooks (that are often free), and show them how tightly and clearly written they are compared to GW.
Then I talk model balance, competitive tournament support, etc.
Then I talk the raw amount of painting and hobby work they have to do before playing a real game.
Why is someone going to pay thousands to play a GW product when they could pay $100-200 to play the very arguably equal if not outright superior product? Even if they could easily afford any of the options. They'd have to REALLY like the GW IP. Liking the IP is a legit reason to play GW games, but not many people with zero emotional investment in GW are going to magically gravitate towards GW's IP over another game's IP.
Buy in matters, because other companies are offering competing buy ins. GW has competition, and NEW players don't owe GW anything.
Malifaux model quality is not nearly as good as what modern GW does. Aesthetics preference asides (true scale vs heroic scale) their minis are not as detailled, nor do they offer the range of options and posabilities of GW minis. And this is coming from someone who likes Malifaux a lot
That might be one of the more perplexing things I've heard someone say here. Spoilers? For rules? Spoilers???
I suppose by by spoiler I mean avoiding wafts of Internet cynicism fart smell on opening the box instead of the whole new box game smell/unknown components experience like the gud ole days.
I even have Friday off work to take delivery of it. A few of the lads are doing the same, should be a blast.
the_scotsman wrote: Welp, I have been industriously hoarding leaks, and it seems the only thing we haven't seen screenshots of is the missions and the skills tables. Or have those been posted at some point?
I think there's some other stuff missing, unless you've stumbled across bits and pieces I haven't seen.
For example, I've not yet seen the full outline of how Ld/morale works.
So did I miss it, or are Chaos Space Marines only a single entry and if you had wanted to play as a Sorcerer with some rubrics you kinda have to fudge with the Mark of Tzeentch?
frozenwastes wrote: It probably should have been 25% more money. Hopefully the demand that has been demonstrated on this print run will be taken into account for the next and they'll jack the price up a bit. It was obviously too cheap.
Are you trolling, or do you just lack an understanding of how boxed sets and starters work?
GW can't print more. The components that made this a "limited" set(box, counters, and rulebook/reference guides) were all done by a printing company elsewhere.
So GW will pay them to do another run?
The doomsday angst is real.
Assuming that their a favoured customer with the (at least) three different printers they use (all the heavy card stuff, boxes, and books are printed by different companies) we'd still be looking at a good four months, minimum, before GW could get them on shelves again and it would be a ridiculous amount of work that i just don't think they're invested in (and rightfully so.)
That being said, it would be absurd not to rerelease the rules in some form or another (and as much as I don't care for ebooks, my money's on that direction.)
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davou wrote: Just wanna link something awesome I just came across online regarding terrain!
All the talk of cards and tokens, I thought part of the Specialist Game expansion included acquiring some of the necessary machines so they could produce some more of the materials in house.
As much as I like what GWs been doing in the last year their treatment of this game's release shows there is still a problem with their perspective. They clearly understand we want certain types of games but they are unwilling to really think of those games as products unto themselves and merely as vehicles for selling discount bundles for 40k. It is as if they were treating the latter as a potential loss to revenue that needed to be mitigated by selling only a fixed volume. A game only works as a gateway if for a significant time it's consistently and perpetually sold and supported. A limited product can never be that.
GW is still a business, one that wants quick turn on investement. If the product sits on the warehouse or shelves, like Dreadfleet did, that's bad.
GW knows there is a saturation to everything the sell, so limiting sales is sensible. The only question is how they limit it. In this case, I wouldn't doubt a 2nd or 3rd printing. Or restock for X months.
The idea that this is "1 and done" doesn't make sense, and I don't think we've gotten anything definitive that this is a single production run, never to be repeated.
Buy-in is an issue. Even if the money isn't an issue.
[...]
Buy in matters, because other companies are offering competing buy ins. GW has competition, and NEW players don't owe GW anything.
You also forgot one very, VERY important factor. Local playerbase. There's a Warhammer playerbase of some sort in almost every single location around the world, all things considered (although in some cases it's a little underground and reclusive), wherease most of these newer games have a far more niche and limited fanbase.
If you have friends willing to jump in along with you then all the better, but if you're starting on your own and trying to find a group to join into, then going with the game that DOES have fans helps...
Buy-in is an issue. Even if the money isn't an issue.
[...]
Buy in matters, because other companies are offering competing buy ins. GW has competition, and NEW players don't owe GW anything.
You also forgot one very, VERY important factor. Local playerbase. There's a Warhammer playerbase of some sort in almost every single location around the world, all things considered (although in some cases it's a little underground and reclusive), wherease most of these newer games have a far more niche and limited fanbase.
If you have friends willing to jump in along with you then all the better, but if you're starting on your own and trying to find a group to join into, then going with the game that DOES have fans helps...
10 years ago thats very true, but today, at least here in Spain, the GW crow its actually now the rare thing to encounter. Infinity ,Guildball, X-wing and Warmahordes have detroned every GW game in the biggest part of the country.
I doesn't help that I live just at the side of the Infinity/CorvusBelli HQ
I doubt it's the case for the whole of Spain. One of the main reason I now mostly only play GW games is that i was tired of seasrching for opponents. Some people seems to underestimate how hard it is to find players for other games (bar warmahodre and X-wing)
Buy-in is an issue. Even if the money isn't an issue.
[...]
Buy in matters, because other companies are offering competing buy ins. GW has competition, and NEW players don't owe GW anything.
You also forgot one very, VERY important factor. Local playerbase. There's a Warhammer playerbase of some sort in almost every single location around the world, all things considered (although in some cases it's a little underground and reclusive), wherease most of these newer games have a far more niche and limited fanbase.
If you have friends willing to jump in along with you then all the better, but if you're starting on your own and trying to find a group to join into, then going with the game that DOES have fans helps...
10 years ago thats very true, but today, at least here in Spain, the GW crow its actually now the rare thing to encounter. Infinity ,Guildball, X-wing and Warmahordes have detroned every GW game in the biggest part of the country.
I doesn't help that I live just at the side of the Infinity/CorvusBelli HQ
I dunno SN battle reports has some of the best 40k games blogs around and a pretty active tournament scene. It is by far one of the best 40k blog sites, super active and based right on the border of Spain or part of Spain depending on your definition. http://snbattlereports.com
Verviedi wrote: Oh, gak. 6 skills per chart. I smell random rolling...
Don't mind this at all, really.
One of the more annoying problems with Necromunda/Mordheim was the division between must-have skills and lackluster ones. Typically, every character type would develop along the same pattern in any campaign they played. At least this will force some variety.
streetsamurai wrote: I doubt it's the case for the whole of Spain.
One of the main reason I now mostly only play GW games is that i was tired of seasrching for opponents. Some people seems to underestimate how hard it is to find players for other games (bar warmahodre and X-wing)
Very true. I can't find a single person around here that's even heard of Gates of Antares, let alone wants to play it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The sheet has 5 different pieces of terrain, although I swear two of them are 100% the same.
It appears that there's 3 different pieces of terrain, with the last two seemingly being bundles.
The Alchomite Stack and Ferratonic Furnace are two kits. The Ferratonic Incinerator looks like it is a Ferratonic Furnace and part of the Galvanic Magnavent put together.
The Promethium Forge looks like it is the Stack and Galvanic Magnavent combined.
frozenwastes wrote: It probably should have been 25% more money. Hopefully the demand that has been demonstrated on this print run will be taken into account for the next and they'll jack the price up a bit. It was obviously too cheap.
Are you trolling, or do you just lack an understanding of how boxed sets and starters work?
Doesn't look like a starter when they make a limited run and it sells out in 15 minutes. A starter is something you offer as part of a larger product line to get people into it. A starter is an evergreen product. This looks like a limited supply one off release.
Units sold x price = revenue, so if GW is going to only make X copies and they sell out in 15 minutes, then GW probably left a lot of money on the table. If they go back for a second go, they should probably throw a single additional sprue in there and offer the new printing at a higher price. Jack the price up $30ish and talk about how it now contains even more terrain or something. The more better edition.
The real issue here is that GW underestimated demand and that doesn't mean their approach to the product was wrong, just that they didn't price it right to maximize revenue. If it sold out in fifteen minutes at $130, it probably would have sold just fine (and probably still sold out) and made more money at $160. And now that demand has been so surely demonstrated, a reprint should probably be at a higher price point justified by including a tiny bit more product with a super low marginal cost (an additional sprue).
Why would they want to set up a competing entry into 40k for the stuff they have planned with the new version of 40k? I highly doubt this is going to be an ongoing game the way people hope. The Age of the Emperor is coming and you can't have your customer base all switched over to a revamp of Necromunda as the new way to play 40k. You'll fragment your customer base too much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Terrain image just posted above:
Spoiler:
Is there any sign any of this terrain will be marketed as part of "Shadow War Armageddon" and not as just being 40k terrain? It's beginning to look like the real evergreen product here is the terrain and the SWA box set was just a bundle with some rehashed rules thrown in on the same sort of glossy stock that ikea uses for its catalogues.
Zethnar wrote: I can't find a single person around here that's even heard of Gates of Antares, let alone wants to play it.
My entire group knows about GoA. But it's out of notoriety, rather than admiration. We found great amusement in the sheer hubris displayed in the GoAKS, with it's "trust me" approach to gameplay, and it's idolized creator homage sculpt. OMG.
Ha no, the feeding frenzy does not demonstrate that the price was too low.
What happened was, this product was
(a) actually marketed
(b) responded to a market trend
(c) reintroduced Necromunda
(d) gave people an excellent excuse to use their existing collections and buy new minis
(e) introduced awesome new terrain
Furthermore, Shadow War isn't self-competition because you can use the same minis for both. What is more likely is, Shadow War will be the gateway drug to starting multiple armies. I was already interested in 8e - first time I have cared about 40k as a game since 2010 by the way - but now I have spent approx. $300 on 40k models not even including the Shadow War boxed set. At this point, me trying 8e is looking pretty good. Maybe with three new armies, too!
Manchu wrote: Ha no, the feeding frenzy does not demonstrate that the price was too low.
Limited run that sells out in 15 minutes? Would have made so much more money had it been $30 a copy higher? Obviously the price was too low. The reasons you listed for the feeding frenzy are just more reasons people would have paid a higher price for this.
The people who thought GW was bringing necromunda back or that this was the new approach to 40k are experiencing a pipe dream. The products, the real ones that will be available for years to come, are the terrain models. This bundle is just a launch for those kits with some revamped rules printed on catalogue stock. And an excuse to bundle a bunch of existing sprues together for various armies with slapped together PDF rules support. Aren't people spotting issues where you can't even take certain options as the campaign game progresses because of contradictory rules about point costs? And people think this is a *real* game product launch? That this was about relaunching a version of Necromunda? Hardly. This was about selling terrain models and making some bundles on their web site at no savings compared to buying them separately.
Maybe they'll respond to the demand by taking a second dip of the core game, but a year from now, this will be largely forgotten and while some people might remember the terrain originally being from that shadow whatever set, they'll largely just think of the terrain as 40k terrain. This isn't the triumphant return of Necromunda or a foreshadow of a new edition of 40k. It's a sales launch for a line of terrain models which are the real evergreen product in this release. Shadow War Armageddon will prove to be as supported into the future as End Times was for Fantasy.
LOL I think we actually agree about everything but the conclusion.
This was a magical perfect storm. What really sealed the deal, as far as the frenzies in UK/EU and US are concerned, was learning well in advance of launch in those regions that Aus/NZ had sold out and shockingly the product turned out to be one-and-done. That translated into me and others sitting on the website for hours beforehand - not just willing to spend money but downright maniacal about it. It's not that the product was underpriced - it just rode in on a roaring tide of unbottleable thunder hype.
Yes indeed this is not the triumphant return of Necromunda - that concept honestly only computes at all through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia. The only thing holding back the complaints about Shadow War not being sufficiently Necromundesque from the Necromunda fans and posters following their lead is a major case of the want-what-you-can't-haves. I agree that as soon as GW prints a rulebook, we'll see the conversation shift from "how could they understock it???" back to "eh maybe I will pick it up sometime" ... and it will either grow in popularity with some support (like AoS) or be one-upped by the next not-Necromunda boxed game (see also Gangs of Commorragh).
What it will not do is fracture the customer base for whatever is the current edition of 40k. And with some minor support, which would all run parallel with 40kmproduction anyhow, it very well could be the gateway drug I mentioned.
Dravis wrote:Here's some 4chan links for skill tables:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Well I'll be darned! They actually rebalanced the skills! This looks great. Two of the most broken skills (Marksman and Hurl Opponent) have been toned down and are now completely reasonable.
Verviedi wrote:Oh, gak. 6 skills per chart. I smell random rolling...
I wish they would put the Ork, Marine and Guard lists up with all of the others when they posted them. I seriously want to build out my main two forces (Blood Angels & Vostroyan Firstborn).
I wasn't able to get the box set, so hopefully the rules and the missing three forces will be released independently soon.
I'll busy myself with the Harlequins rules (My wife's preferred faction) and building out a kill team for her till then,
streetsamurai wrote: I doubt it's the case for the whole of Spain.
One of the main reason I now mostly only play GW games is that i was tired of seasrching for opponents. Some people seems to underestimate how hard it is to find players for other games (bar warmahodre and X-wing)
Very true. I can't find a single person around here that's even heard of Gates of Antares, let alone wants to play it.
Very true. I learned this lesson more than 15 years ago.
I also learned that non-GW companies tend to go out of business as well, so you are better off buying the miniatures you like the look of.
Around here people are very reluctant to try something new, as more than once we bought into something, only for it to no longer be supported or to have such a horrible resupply of product that any interest dies out over time. Also, there is this stereotype that we Dutch are stingy, gamers even more so. The amount of money I ended up throwing away by trying games that won't take off around here is just sad.
Red__Thirst wrote: I wish they would put the Ork, Marine and Guard lists up with all of the others when they posted them. I seriously want to build out my main two forces (Blood Angels & Vostroyan Firstborn).
I wasn't able to get the box set, so hopefully the rules and the missing three forces will be released independently soon.
I'll busy myself with the Harlequins rules (My wife's preferred faction) and building out a kill team for her till then,
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Guard and orks are on page 72 of this thread w/ first page of Orks above. Marine skills also above.
Here's the marine list:
So I got really excited and ended up writing up a first draft for an Inquisitional kill team.
Now, I've yet to even play a game yet, so everything could be wildly off base, since it's mostly based on speculation from looking at the entries for other factions. Things are also a bit long-winded, since it's meant to be a more advanced response to the somewhat limited selection a lot of the official factions have to deal with.
I've tried to add some more diverse specialists, starting with Death Cult Assassins. If people like them, I might try throwing something for diversified specialists for other factions.
Special Operatives are not included yet (Daemonhosts?), and the Ordo Xenos don't get a huge amount of representation since they have fewer easily implementable source books for me to draw from.
So, feel free to take a look at it and let me know what you think. Maybe even test it out if it looks like it might be fun. C&C is appreciated, please be as vicious as you possibly can.
Dravis wrote:Here's some 4chan links for skill tables:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Well I'll be darned! They actually rebalanced the skills! This looks great. Two of the most broken skills (Marksman and Hurl Opponent) have been toned down and are now completely reasonable.
Verviedi wrote:Oh, gak. 6 skills per chart. I smell random rolling...
Well yeah... it's Necromunda.
I'm truly amazed. They fixed the game destroying Marksman.
Gamesworkshop serially fixing terrible unbalance? This surely is the age of Rowntree
Dravis wrote:Here's some 4chan links for skill tables:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Well I'll be darned! They actually rebalanced the skills! This looks great. Two of the most broken skills (Marksman and Hurl Opponent) have been toned down and are now completely reasonable.
Verviedi wrote:Oh, gak. 6 skills per chart. I smell random rolling...
Well yeah... it's Necromunda.
I'm truly amazed. They fixed the game destroying Marksman.
Gamesworkshop serially fixing terrible unbalance? This surely is the age of Rowntree
Don't have to shoot at the nearest target (is that still a thing? Tell me its not a thing!) and could fire at extreme ranges (1.5x range). Only applicable to basic weapons.
Bobthehero wrote: Don't have to shoot at the nearest target (is that still a thing? Tell me its not a thing!) and could fire at extreme ranges (1.5x range). Only applicable to basic weapons.
5: Marksman
A model with the Marksman skill can ignore the
normal restriction which obliges fighters to shoot at
the nearest target. Instead, he can shoot at any target
he can see.
It meant you could feed them juves to hit while your guys picked off their good ones. Worked with heavy weapons.
The key was to get as much good BS long range marksman in your gang and watch the other guy melt away.
Fantastic news it's gone
Edit: Of course nearest target will still be a thing, it's a foundation of Necromunda
Bobthehero wrote: Don't have to shoot at the nearest target (is that still a thing? Tell me its not a thing!) and could fire at extreme ranges (1.5x range). Only applicable to basic weapons.
From what MWG did, it is still a thing.
That is good. A big part of the strategy in Necro was positioning your gangers so the opponent would be forced to target the weaker ones first. although that could be mitigated somewhat by the fact that you only had to shoot the closest fighter in LOS, not the closest period. Marksman was broken because it allowed you to pick off the leader, heavy weapons etc first and ignore the weak fighters running towards you screaming. I recently had Marksman on a Heavy with Heavy Plasma and it basically broke the campaign all by itself.
Fafnir wrote: So I got really excited and ended up writing up a first draft for an Inquisitional kill team.
Now, I've yet to even play a game yet, so everything could be wildly off base, since it's mostly based on speculation from looking at the entries for other factions. Things are also a bit long-winded, since it's meant to be a more advanced response to the somewhat limited selection a lot of the official factions have to deal with.
I've tried to add some more diverse specialists, starting with Death Cult Assassins. If people like them, I might try throwing something for diversified specialists for other factions.
Special Operatives are not included yet (Daemonhosts?), and the Ordo Xenos don't get a huge amount of representation since they have fewer easily implementable source books for me to draw from.
So, feel free to take a look at it and let me know what you think. Maybe even test it out if it looks like it might be fun. C&C is appreciated, please be as vicious as you possibly can.
Maybe start a new thread in specialist games section, might get more focus there.
Some comments: Warband size seems small, maybe stick to standard 3-10, leaders can't be replaced anyway so first part of restriction is unnecessary. You've labeled the Throne Agent Specialist as Trooper.
The specialist should only be 10 pts more then trooper.
The death cultist, should be priced more, the Harlequin Virtuoso is 175pts, w/ +2 BS -1 S and +1 Ld and +1 M, maybe 145pts?
All weapons that use user str seem to have a static mod: user+1 rather then user x2, Rad grenades seem too strong for the price, maybe only test once and remove rarity.
Some comments: Warband size seems small, maybe stick to standard 3-10, leaders can't be replaced anyway so first part of restriction is unnecessary. You've labeled the Throne Agent Specialist as Trooper.
The Inquisitional Warband is meant to be disbanded upon the loss of their Inquisitor because they are a personal retinue, and thus have no reason for sticking around if the guy they've been hand-picked to serve is no longer alive.
The death cultist, should be priced more, the Harlequin Virtuoso is 175pts, w/ +2 BS -1 S and +1 Ld and +1 M, maybe 145pts?
The Virtuoso also comes with a better invulnerable save, causes fear, and ignores most terrain, as well as improved cover bonus for running and better access to equipment. That said, the Cultist does come with a better set of starting weapons and the higher strength could be pretty killer. I was originally basing the Death Cultist off of the statline for the Harlequin Player and the old Death Cultist statline. I'll push up the points for now, I'll have to get some games in to see just how potent those starting swords are.
All weapons that use user str seem to have a static mod: user+1 rather then user x2, Rad grenades seem too strong for the price, maybe only test once and remove rarity.
Noted for the Eviscerator. I'll also turn the rad grenades into a small blast.
H.B.M.C. wrote:]I genuinely thought your original post was dry sarcasm.
I'm surprised that I was wrong.
There is certainly an element of it. It wasn't a totally off base interpretation.
I guess I just have come to accept GW's business model for what it is, even if it goes against the fact that injection moulded plastics are most efficient when they are for as high volume of production as possible.
Obviously what I think GW should do is make a low model count game that scales up well that doesn't have a huge barrier to entry in terms of price. This isn't quite it, but it had the potential to be that.
Given that it's not though, I think GW should use it to cash in on nostalgia money. Since it is just a game attached to a terrain product launch accompanied by the Kirby-era practice of model bundles with no savings, I think they should go whole hog on the approach. If they're not going to take the time to get ex customers back in a way that keeps them, they may as well try to get what money they can in a single shot.
So yeah, it was dry sarcasm, but also an acceptance of GW's current practices not being as different from the Kirby era as some people like to claim. And I actually see the utility in selling less product at a higher price for some releases.
@Manchu, I also completely agree with you except for the conclusion. I see price as a supply management tool in response to high demand *for this type of product*. They underestimated the effectiveness of their own promotion and the general demand for this type of game whereas if they didn't, I think a more appropriate response for this single product would be to jack up the price and make as much money as they can in a one and done fashion. By the time their promotion of this was going, it was probably too late to change their supply even if they did suddenly get that their marketing and customer communication about this release was actually working.
Obviously the better approach would have been for this game to be a truly supported new product line and not an afterthought to sell some terrain kits and no discount model bundles on their web store. But with new40k on the horizon, I don't think that's necessarily strategically sound.
Imagine if there was suddenly a continually available version of 40k from GW that required a handful of the models of a current edition army and with tight and tested rules for most of the models (not the larger models that are out of scope for such a game). It would be in direct opposition to their move towards selling people on huge games with hordes of smaller models scattered around big monsters and vehicles on 120mm bases.
So now that they know there actually is demand for something like this they need to figure out the best way to sell it that doesn't negatively effect new40k. It really can't be a viable version of 40k that continues as an alternative to new40k. While player's may love that, GW is probably still deathly afraid of cannibalizing their own lines. Even if they're wrong about that, I don't think they'll take the risk.
Bobthehero wrote: Don't have to shoot at the nearest target (is that still a thing? Tell me its not a thing!) and could fire at extreme ranges (1.5x range). Only applicable to basic weapons.
From what MWG did, it is still a thing.
That is good. A big part of the strategy in Necro was positioning your gangers so the opponent would be forced to target the weaker ones first. although that could be mitigated somewhat by the fact that you only had to shoot the closest fighter in LOS, not the closest period. Marksman was broken because it allowed you to pick off the leader, heavy weapons etc first and ignore the weak fighters running towards you screaming. I recently had Marksman on a Heavy with Heavy Plasma and it basically broke the campaign all by itself.
I find it funny that an entire campaign breaks because one dude figured out one of the most basic military tactics.
It takes all skill of positioning out of the game. Necromunda without nearest target would be a totally different game - and I can well imagine a marksman Heavy Plasma completely draining the fun out of a campaign.
They look to have done a good job toning shooting down
Shoot the closest target was already problematic in the original Necromunda because it only applied to models inside your 90* fire arc and so in many cases you could rotate the shooting model to remove the juve meat-shield from your arc. It was one of the rules we play house ruled (1. Choose closest within 90* 2. Rotate firing model to aim directly. 3. If another model in the arc is now closer, that must be targeted instead.)
You still get cover and minus a for BS for using that cover. It may male sense for gangers yo freak out and shoot at the nearest target, but for trained soldiers? (And it only goes up from there and the scale of training)
Bottle wrote: Shoot the closest target was already problematic in the original Necromunda because it only applied to models inside your 90* fire arc and so in many cases you could rotate the shooting model to remove the juve meat-shield from your arc. It was one of the rules we play house ruled (1. Choose closest within 90* 2. Rotate firing model to aim directly. 3. If another model in the arc is now closer, that must be targeted instead.)
Arc had nothing to do with closest target (unless you're talking about overwatch).
Bottle wrote: Shoot the closest target was already problematic in the original Necromunda because it only applied to models inside your 90* fire arc and so in many cases you could rotate the shooting model to remove the juve meat-shield from your arc. It was one of the rules we play house ruled (1. Choose closest within 90* 2. Rotate firing model to aim directly. 3. If another model in the arc is now closer, that must be targeted instead.)
Arc had nothing to do with closest target (unless you're talking about overwatch).
Closest target, turn to face. Simple.
I'd have to go through my ORB but that's not how I remember it at all. What were arcs for if you didn't target models in them?
Nope, I'm misremembering the official rules because we ignore it and do 360 sight unless on overwatch. It's going to be hard to unlearn decades of houseruling!
You do the swivelly thing you outlined officially - turn to face nearest in arc, then if anyone else is now nearest turn to face them, and so on.
Hopefully whoever I play agrees to ignore arcs too, they are fiddly things that serve no useful purpose and just introduce judgement calls that can be argued. Those and no pre measuring are the two things I do away with whenever I can
Yeah, they added a bit of strategy because you committed your models to looking a certain direction and if you managed to take out all the threats in that direction early you could be left with no models to shoot with latter gangers. I think the swivel thing might have been added in the LRB, whereas I have always played ORB. Happy to know our house-rule turns out to be the same as a later official ruling!
I think removing the rule can be worthwhile in just speeding up the game, and agree with your houserule that being kept for overwatch is a good call.
The "strategy" is just gamey spinning your model round so you get the best 90 degrees to target who you want though. It's like the even more stupid version of moving behind half a pillar to obscure one target from line if sight!
True, but there was also strategy in, 'there are 2 models on my left flank, I could pivot 2 models to face them and hope it's enough or pivot 3 and run the risk of one not having a target'.
I had a look through the rulebook today in my lunch break and it is a beautifully done book! The campaign has a definite win condition too which is cool, earn 15 promethium crates (the max) and then win one more game with 15 in your stash (so no Special Operatives) to win!
For anyone that played that Kill Team box that released with the Deathguard and the Tau in it, how far removed is this? Is it very similar, or just way way different?
So quick question (and sorry, if it has been mentioned already): in the web shop it's marked as "Currently not available" instead of "No longer available"... So second print run incoming?
nou wrote: I don't know if you guys noticed, but Shadow War: Armageddon went from Sold Out to Temporarily out of stock, but there is no "email me" button.
I noticed that - it doesn't seem to be on the main entry, but shows 'temporarily out of stock' when you search for it. Wonder if we'll see something more definite later today?
That has just changed in the last hour or so.
I looked earlier for closer pics at the scenery sprues
(it bugs me that they write SOLD OUT across every image meaning you can't get that clear a view).
I managed to preorder one on Saturday but I wouldn't mind getting another for the scenery savings (plus more orks is never a bad thing).
"What do you mean you sold our new game as limited edition?" "Sir we..." "We advertised it a damned trade show! We made it a big deal." "Yes but..." "Shoot yourself and then go make more!" "In that order, sir?" "Get out!"
Generally, according to the theories of social psychology- making something appear "scarce" is an effective sales technique.
My money is on this and also GW testing the waters. If it didn't sell well then they could just slowly try and sell what they had then delete it. They have sold out of the product for the moment, but will run a second production run now. It would be crazy not to.
Kanluwen wrote: They don't remove the "SOLD OUT" tag for giggles and grins.
Don't assume anything until we get at least some sort of official notice. Otherwise, we're doing nothing more than wishlisting on what could turn out to be a silly mistake. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get my hands on a second set but I'll keep my powder dry until we know for sure.
I've already written GW making a case for the game being an evergreen part of the line up - including how my partner and I had just bought $150 worth of models for new Kill Teams that were weren't otherwise planning on spending on GW stuff thanks to the game!
BlueGrassGamer wrote: Just a bit surprised/disappointed that GW didn't include the Raven Guard as a sub-faction for Space Marine Scouts...
Agreeed. I was hoping to run Raptors as Raven Guard. Hopefully there'll be an article with more Space Marine chapters and Imperial Guard regiments in the next White Dwarf. I'd expect to see rules for Imperial Fists (Iron Champions/Celestial Lions) and Raven Guard (Raptors) at the very least.
BrookM wrote: Chances are they'll probably put out the notification at the end of today or some time tomorrow.
Chances are they already made the decision to do another production run or more however wanted to talk to the operations manager to have a better idea when he can restock it before they make any premature statement about when it can be available. Odds are the operations manager will need to bump something in the production line down to fit in a huge boxset, but non of these decisions he can make at home without looking over the production schedule and making adjustments. <- this is how a manufacture works. They can't just magically make 10,000 more box sets appear from thin air or kick back every other production run.
BlueGrassGamer wrote: Just a bit surprised/disappointed that GW didn't include the Raven Guard as a sub-faction for Space Marine Scouts...
Agreeed. I was hoping to run Raptors as Raven Guard. Hopefully there'll be an article with more Space Marine chapters and Imperial Guard regiments in the next White Dwarf. I'd expect to see rules for Imperial Fists (Iron Champions/Celestial Lions) and Raven Guard (Raptors) at the very least.
Apart from different skill tables (and space wolf scouts getting special weapons) are any of the variants any different?
BrookM wrote: Chances are they'll probably put out the notification at the end of today or some time tomorrow.
Chances are they already made the decision to do another production run or more however wanted to talk to the operations manager to have a better idea when he can restock it before they make any premature statement about when it can be available. Odds are the operations manager will need to bump something in the production line down to fit in a huge boxset, but non of these decisions he can make at home without looking over the production schedule and making adjustments. <- this is how a manufacture works. They can't just magically make 10,000 more box sets appear from thin air or kick back every other production run.
Buy-in is an issue. Even if the money isn't an issue.
[...]
Buy in matters, because other companies are offering competing buy ins. GW has competition, and NEW players don't owe GW anything.
You also forgot one very, VERY important factor. Local playerbase. There's a Warhammer playerbase of some sort in almost every single location around the world, all things considered (although in some cases it's a little underground and reclusive), wherease most of these newer games have a far more niche and limited fanbase.
If you have friends willing to jump in along with you then all the better, but if you're starting on your own and trying to find a group to join into, then going with the game that DOES have fans helps...
10 years ago thats very true, but today, at least here in Spain, the GW crow its actually now the rare thing to encounter. Infinity ,Guildball, X-wing and Warmahordes have detroned every GW game in the biggest part of the country.
I doesn't help that I live just at the side of the Infinity/CorvusBelli HQ
I dunno SN battle reports has some of the best 40k games blogs around and a pretty active tournament scene. It is by far one of the best 40k blog sites, super active and based right on the border of Spain or part of Spain depending on your definition. http://snbattlereports.com
Yeah, thats right, I don't say that GW games where non existant here, but in the big hobby hubs of Spain (Madrid, Barcelona, Bilbao, Navarra) they have been pushed away in favour of games of other companys. And in Galicia, 80% of the gaming its Infinity, for obvius reasons
BrookM wrote: Chances are they'll probably put out the notification at the end of today or some time tomorrow.
Chances are they already made the decision to do another production run or more however wanted to talk to the operations manager to have a better idea when he can restock it before they make any premature statement about when it can be available. Odds are the operations manager will need to bump something in the production line down to fit in a huge boxset, but non of these decisions he can make at home without looking over the production schedule and making adjustments. <- this is how a manufacture works. They can't just magically make 10,000 more box sets appear from thin air or kick back every other production run.
Calm down son?
Don't be so defensive, son! I'm just explaining how there are multiple parts and people involved in manufacturing and how logistically they all need to talk to make any changes and why it requires time to make any statement on when something will turn up on when it's not prescheduled.
BlueGrassGamer wrote: Just a bit surprised/disappointed that GW didn't include the Raven Guard as a sub-faction for Space Marine Scouts...
Agreeed. I was hoping to run Raptors as Raven Guard. Hopefully there'll be an article with more Space Marine chapters and Imperial Guard regiments in the next White Dwarf. I'd expect to see rules for Imperial Fists (Iron Champions/Celestial Lions) and Raven Guard (Raptors) at the very least.
Apart from different skill tables (and space wolf scouts getting special weapons) are any of the variants any different?
On the background level, sure! Otherwise? No so much. The Raven Guard's shtick, for a while at least, has been their focus on special operations, covert missions, and infiltration. So it was just kinda odd not see them either name checked or given rules in a game/supplement about small but elite units of warrior undertaking special operations...
Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Wasnt interested in this game before, but seeing as how they made actual rules for each chaos Cultists CCW theyre modeled with, I may have to jump into the inevitable Campaign style gaming my FLGS will develop.
Kanluwen wrote: They don't remove the "SOLD OUT" tag for giggles and grins.
Don't assume anything until we get at least some sort of official notice. Otherwise, we're doing nothing more than wishlisting on what could turn out to be a silly mistake. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get my hands on a second set but I'll keep my powder dry until we know for sure.
Come on, I think we're probably safe in this instance.
BrookM wrote: Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Source: Codex: Armageddon.
Tau were not on Armageddon either - of course Sisters of Battle were but hey, why make rules for them
BrookM wrote: Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Source: Codex: Armageddon.
Tau were not on Armageddon either - of course Sisters of Battle were but hey, why make rules for them
Ah, but the Tau are in plastic and yadda yadda yadda, whatever.
BrookM wrote: Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Source: Codex: Armageddon.
Don't necessarily need to be playing on Armageddon. Plenty of hive cities to base the campaigns in..
Yes, but that's why they selected the space marines chapters they did. Whereas factions were just whatever had plastic kits that were appropriate
Was just odd why people were hoping for rules when the chapter specific rules are so tiny. Just use a chapter with a stealth table and your raven guard are good!
BrookM wrote: Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Source: Codex: Armageddon.
If we're going to be pedantic.. The Raptors, a Second Founding successor chapter to the Raven Guard, deployed five companies to Armageddon. The Raptors were specialized in surgical strikes and jungle warfare.
BrookM wrote: Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Source: Codex: Armageddon.
Tau were not on Armageddon either - of course Sisters of Battle were but hey, why make rules for them
Once I'm happy with my Inquisitional ruleset, I'll get started on those too.
Product page has been updated to say: "This product will be released in stores on Saturday 8th April but is no longer available for pre-order here. Find your local store."
"What do you mean you sold our new game as limited edition?"
"Sir we..."
"We advertised it a damned trade show! We made it a big deal."
"Yes but..."
"Shoot yourself and then go make more!"
"In that order, sir?"
"Get out!"
corrected -
"Sir, let's put a limited number online for preorder, and when they "Sell Out" we will change it to "check your local store." and boost store sales on April 8th & 9th!"
"It sold out already?"
"Sir, the ploy was successful!..."
"We advertised it a damned trade show! We made it a big deal. Are you sure they'll take the bait?"
"Yes! Now we are showing online that people have to go into the stores and get it!"
"Shoot ! That is brilliant! Now people will go in and get that, plus hobby supplies, and more! They'll spend twice as much in a store than online!"
"It's called Marketing Strategy Sir!"
"Let's keep doing this! They'll never catch on! Is the Thunderhawk kit almost done?"
BrookM wrote: Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Source: Codex: Armageddon.
Hmmm ... are the Relictors in the game? All 10 companies were on Armageddon ...
Asmodai wrote: Product page has been updated to say: "This product will be released in stores on Saturday 8th April but is no longer available for pre-order here. Find your local store."
You can still preorder it cheaper from online retailers or stores. Nearly every store I contacted now has stock for sale and are contacting me if I still want to order it.
Honestly if this is a future strategy this is a great idea. Limit preorders on the Gw website and push sales back to the flags or online retailers with the new order page rules. This means FLGS will once again have a large GW client base and it is still cheaper or the same price as GW website.
Asmodai wrote: Product page has been updated to say: "This product will be released in stores on Saturday 8th April but is no longer available for pre-order here. Find your local store."
You can still preorder it cheaper from online retailers or stores. Nearly every store I contacted now has stock for sale and are contacting me if I still want to order it.
Honestly if this is a future strategy this is a great idea. Limit preorders on the Gw website and push sales back to the flags or online retailers with the new order page rules. This means FLGS will once again have a large GW client base and it is still cheaper or the same price as GW website.
Except that was not the strategy they had planned I know this because all my local flgs were pissed they could only have 10 copies and as of 10 minutes ago they have not heard anything different. As it stands if it was intended then it was only aimining to funnel sales.through there own stores. Even then I am not sure as the GW manager was pretty pissed when he found out it was limited edition and he was only gett8ng a limited supply but was expected to demo it even if he had nothing to sell.
Looks like damage control at best and would not be suprised if some flgs find there orders short.
I asked my local Warhammer shop today and he told me they are only getting 3 copies in, and this is an actual Warhammer shop :-) Hoping to get there early on Saturday to see if there are any left.
Asmodai wrote: Product page has been updated to say: "This product will be released in stores on Saturday 8th April but is no longer available for pre-order here. Find your local store."
You can still preorder it cheaper from online retailers or stores. Nearly every store I contacted now has stock for sale and are contacting me if I still want to order it.
Honestly if this is a future strategy this is a great idea. Limit preorders on the Gw website and push sales back to the flags or online retailers with the new order page rules. This means FLGS will once again have a large GW client base and it is still cheaper or the same price as GW website.
My local GW store announced they're getting 7 copies in (for a catchment area of around a million people).
I doubt that it was planned. It's also out of stock every place I've checked in Canada.
"What do you mean you sold our new game as limited edition?"
"Sir we..."
"We advertised it a damned trade show! We made it a big deal."
"Yes but..."
"Shoot yourself and then go make more!"
"In that order, sir?"
"Get out!"
The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
BrookM wrote: Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Source: Codex: Armageddon.
If we're going to be pedantic.. The Raptors, a Second Founding successor chapter to the Raven Guard, deployed five companies to Armageddon. The Raptors were specialized in surgical strikes and jungle warfare.
IIRC Shadow war is set during the 2nd war for Armageddon not the 3rd. The only chapters deployed during the 2nd war were the Blood angels, Ultramarines and Salamanders.
BrookM wrote: Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Source: Codex: Armageddon.
If we're going to be pedantic.. The Raptors, a Second Founding successor chapter to the Raven Guard, deployed five companies to Armageddon. The Raptors were specialized in surgical strikes and jungle warfare.
IIRC Shadow war is set during the 2nd war for Armageddon not the 3rd. The only chapters deployed during the 2nd war were the Blood angels, Ultramarines and Salamanders.
It's kinda obvious that Shadow War takes place either during or in the aftermath of the Third War for Armageddon. The Space Marine Scout section includes sub-faction rules for the Sons of Guilliman, the Angels of Redemption, the White Scars, and Space Wolf Scouts. Each of those chapters have been listed in multiple sources as having fought in the Third War for Armageddon.
So while we're waiting on rules... just thought i'd update my comments from yesterday....
While it is NOT fluffy, or in fact makes any sense in its purest form, a few of us played a load of Shadow War all afternoon and into the night, using the Necromunda Serious Injury Tables, Territories, Credits, and EXP systems exactly as they appear in the ORB (but using the current skill tables ie fixed Marksman, and Guerilla in place of Techno), and we found it to be absolutely perfect. I'd go so far as to say only logicial/fluffy tweaks need be made to these systems to have them port right over.
The next round of testing will be to see how to point/price Special Operatives as Hired Guns, which will be the only part that has to be home-brewed with everything else working as-is.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Exactly. Buy a scout box & an ork box. The rules will come out on their own (either officially or not so officially ) later, or in the next rulebook. The terrain will be sold (remember the Tau wall that was lmtd edition too?) separately in several months....
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So while we're waiting on rules... just thought i'd update my comments from yesterday....
While it is NOT fluffy, or in fact makes any sense in its purest form, a few of us played a load of Shadow War all afternoon and into the night, using the Necromunda Serious Injury Tables, Territories, Credits, and EXP systems exactly as they appear in the ORB (but using the current skill tables ie fixed Marksman, and Guerilla in place of Techno), and we found it to be absolutely perfect. I'd go so far as to say only logicial/fluffy tweaks need be made to these systems to have them port right over.
The next round of testing will be to see how to point/price Special Operatives as Hired Guns, which will be the only part that has to be home-brewed with everything else working as-is.
Sounds good.
Maybe I'll finally get to do that Ran Lo strike team, after all. Not spyrer suits (are they called that in English?), but heavily armed storm troopers and house guards protecting a house member doing or searching...something...in the Underworld.
Just looking at my old rulebooks got me hyped again foe Necromunda's lore and setting. Shadow War provides the lists, Necro the rest. Mhm.
(And Death Guard cultist kit will provide ALL the Scavvies )
BrookM wrote: Well, the list goes with some of the Chapters involved in the action on Armageddon, the Raven Guard were not a part of it. This is also why the Dark Angels and Ultramarines are not mentioned directly, they weren't involved either.
Source: Codex: Armageddon.
Hmmm ... are the Relictors in the game? All 10 companies were on Armageddon ...
Id be interested to know this too..
Seeing how GW is altering the time line for the 13th and having the 3rd war for Arm probably be the next book to include Orks, BA and using 'Shadow war' as a bridge gap.. yes technically the Relictors should be involved. Well, at Angrons Monolith. However the Astartes Praeses chapters were not mentioned at all in any of the Gathering Storm books, which would have decimated those chapters.. So without mention, who knows, the Relictors may not even anymore.
Loving the whole buying new troops equipment leaders etc,using earned promethium caches by killing there leader or achieving a set objective guess there are counters for that,i have actual barrel caches i will substitute in place of cardboard,Will just do as it says above buy the scouts & boys plus one or more of the terrain kit when they are released,while using old Necromunda rules,until someone eventually uploads there copy of the book online,that way the whole shadow war will continue supported in a similar way to the old version,people keeping it alive with love for the game itself.
u971 wrote: Loving the whole buying new troops equipment leaders etc,using earned promethium caches by killing there leader or achieving a set objective guess there are counters for that,i have actual barrel caches i will substitute in place of cardboard,Will just do as it says above buy the scouts & boys plus one or more of the terrain kit when they are released,while using old Necromunda rules,until someone eventually uploads there copy of the book online,that way the whole shadow war will continue supported in a similar way to the old version,people keeping it alive with love for the game itself.
And honestly, Shadow War in that sense just seems a nice "official" way to get some 40k model/weapon rules, and give the Necromunda community a shot in the arm. I love it for that, but a week in, and maybe twenty games played, and I can say it has no legs. They absolutely dismantled the idea of it having a lot of longevity in a group. Luckily, the Necromunda rules immediately fix that.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
Maybe they will when they sell the terrain separately?
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
So I can pay GW to see decent images of things I might want to buy?
I'm going to have to call my local GW store about this release. All the info in this thread is confusing me so much I need something from the horse's mouth.
I work Saturday tho, so might need to try and arrange for a friend to pick a set up for me hopefully.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
So I can pay GW to see decent images of things I might want to buy?
Cool!
Don't pretend there isn't a scan of the whole thing on the net somewhere (and probably linked in this thread)... ;-)
) later, or in the next rulebook. The terrain will be sold (remember the Tau wall that was lmtd edition too?) separately in several months....
