That might be one of the more perplexing things I've heard someone say here. Spoilers? For rules? Spoilers???
I suppose by by spoiler I mean avoiding wafts of Internet cynicism fart smell on opening the box instead of the whole new box game smell/unknown components experience like the gud ole days.
I even have Friday off work to take delivery of it. A few of the lads are doing the same, should be a blast.
Then don't look on the fething forum mate!
At least with some of the photos inexplicably posted sideways you have to crane your neck somewhat to read them..
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
So I can pay GW to see decent images of things I might want to buy?
Cool!
Don't pretend there isn't a scan of the whole thing on the net somewhere (and probably linked in this thread)... ;-)
Ok, so rather than going to the vendor's website I can go and find some images "on the net somewhere?"
Cool!
You see where this is going? There's basically no reason for the very best images of something I can't yet see physically in person being freely available from the company that wants to sell it to me.
For free, and without having to go digging for them.
Someone may have already noted it but we have gone from OOS to "Temporarily Unavailable" to there being no notice and no Email Me button.
I wonder if this means GW has decided to reintroduce Shadow War in a slightly different format. I'd like to see the components available separately, including a hardcover rulebook.
Ideally, the rulebook would not only be hardcover but include all the published so far as well as several more, covering the rest of the plastics lines (e.g., Thousand Sons).
Manchu wrote: Someone may have already noted it but we have gone from OOS to "Temporarily Unavailable" to there being no notice and no Email Me button.
I wonder if this means GW has decided to reintroduce Shadow War in a slightly different format. I'd like to see the components available separately, including a hardcover rulebook.
Ideally, the rulebook would not only be hardcover but include all the published so far as well as several more, covering the rest of the plastics lines (e.g., Thousand Sons).
Several have noted that. It also states the following above the product description
This product will be released in stores on Saturday 8th April but is no longer available for pre-order here. Find your local store.
Manchu wrote: Someone may have already noted it but we have gone from OOS to "Temporarily Unavailable" to there being no notice and no Email Me button.
I wonder if this means GW has decided to reintroduce Shadow War in a slightly different format.
On a serious note, the best thing they can do is put out pictures of that terrain package with a 'coming soon' for those feeling like they're missing the terrain. Then make a hardback (not limited edition) rulebook with all the extra pdf pages and missing stuff in it. Keep it on sale as a gateway to 40k for the kids wanting to get into 40k who aren't Little Timmy.
Blargh so they probably just want to clarify that you can try to find one at the WH store or your LGS ... which everyone here already knew ... but might be unclear to little Timmy's parents and other normies.
I prefer my baseless speculation that Shadow War will live on!
I think they're deliberately keeping the door open while they decide what to do next - it says it's no longer available to pre order online, but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't start selling it online again after it's released. It does still say while stocks last, though. Bit weird. They should announce something.
Bull0 wrote: I think they're deliberately keeping the door open while they decide what to do next - it says it's no longer available to pre order online, but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't start selling it online again after it's released. It does still say while stocks last, though. Bit weird. They should announce something.
I mean, strictly speaking it would be "while stocks last"...
When the shops sell out of it, that's it.
I would not be surprised to see them keeping the door open for a reprint of the main rules and counters and doing something like the "Containers" bundles they're doing right now.
If you haven't seen those, it's a set of the Armoured Containers, a Start Collecting set, and one extra item.
Guard get a Techpriest Enginseer added in, Tau get a Broadside, and Skitarii get a Ballistari.
Manchu wrote: TBH a softback would make the most sense to keep the price point lower for maximum gateway-to-addiction effect, like AoS.
Not much about this release even demonstrates that they're aware/vigorously pursuing the gateway strategy. I guess maybe they paid that idea some lip service during the GAMA thing, from some second-hand reports I hear?
They're still run soooo poorly.
I'm another one of those types that have been posting in here -- out of 40K for a long time, desperately wanting/whining about a 40K skirmish game for a decade+, bought $100+ worth of GW odds and ends for a new Kill Team as soon as the nature of this system started to clarify, etc.. Box was sold out by the time I checked in last saturday. I'm still going to play, but you best believe I'm pirating every element I can. Turns out they weren't interested in my $200 *shrug*
Manchu wrote: TBH a softback would make the most sense to keep the price point lower for maximum gateway-to-addiction effect, like AoS.
Not much about this release even demonstrates that they're aware/vigorously pursuing the gateway strategy. I guess maybe they paid that idea some lip service during the GAMA thing, from some second-hand reports I hear?
They're still run soooo poorly.
Seriously?
Look into the "Battle for Vedros" stuff. Look into the new starter coming for Age of Sigmar. Look into a lot of things they've done in the past few years.
I'm another one of those types that have been posting in here -- out of 40K for a long time, desperately wanting/whining about a 40K skirmish game for a decade+, bought $100+ worth of GW odds and ends for a new Kill Team as soon as the nature of this system started to clarify, etc.. Box was sold out by the time I checked in last saturday. I'm still going to play, but you best believe I'm pirating every element I can. Turns out they weren't interested in my $200 *shrug*
Yeah, you go pirate those free PDFs for virtually everything barring the main rulebook and Marines, Orks, and Guard...show them what for!
Altruizine wrote: out of 40K for a long time, desperately wanting/whining about a 40K skirmish game for a decade+, bought $100+ worth of GW odds and ends for a new Kill Team as soon as the nature of this system started to clarify, etc.
Pretty close to where I am at. I have wanted some AdMech and GS Cult (and 1ksons) models since they were launched ... but I want nothing to do with 40k since 5e. I got increasingly excited about Shadow War as the info rolled in from GAMA and dropped a few hundred buying up some of those models I had been wanting, which I could now use for Shadow War.
So naturally, I became extremely determined to get a copy once it became clear that Aus/NZ sold out pretty quickly and it looked to be a one-and-done. Naturally, I spent two hours sitting on the damn F5 key before 1PM EST this past Saturday to get my copy. For people who missed the five-minute window, we already know there WILL be a digital edition of the rulebook. I feel pretty sure some kind of reprint of the rules if not the box set must currently be under discussion in Nottingham.
Manchu wrote: TBH a softback would make the most sense to keep the price point lower for maximum gateway-to-addiction effect, like AoS.
Not much about this release even demonstrates that they're aware/vigorously pursuing the gateway strategy. I guess maybe they paid that idea some lip service during the GAMA thing, from some second-hand reports I hear?
They're still run soooo poorly.
Seriously?
Look into the "Battle for Vedros" stuff. Look into the new starter coming for Age of Sigmar. Look into a lot of things they've done in the past few years.
I'm another one of those types that have been posting in here -- out of 40K for a long time, desperately wanting/whining about a 40K skirmish game for a decade+, bought $100+ worth of GW odds and ends for a new Kill Team as soon as the nature of this system started to clarify, etc.. Box was sold out by the time I checked in last saturday. I'm still going to play, but you best believe I'm pirating every element I can. Turns out they weren't interested in my $200 *shrug*
Yeah, you go pirate those free PDFs for virtually everything barring the main rulebook and Marines, Orks, and Guard...show them what for!
lol, you should work for GW PR, you might be bad enough to make them look good.
Also none of the stuff you mentioned were good efforts to get people into the hobby.
Manchu wrote: TBH a softback would make the most sense to keep the price point lower for maximum gateway-to-addiction effect, like AoS.
Not much about this release even demonstrates that they're aware/vigorously pursuing the gateway strategy. I guess maybe they paid that idea some lip service during the GAMA thing, from some second-hand reports I hear?
They're still run soooo poorly.
Seriously?
Look into the "Battle for Vedros" stuff. Look into the new starter coming for Age of Sigmar. Look into a lot of things they've done in the past few years.
I'm another one of those types that have been posting in here -- out of 40K for a long time, desperately wanting/whining about a 40K skirmish game for a decade+, bought $100+ worth of GW odds and ends for a new Kill Team as soon as the nature of this system started to clarify, etc.. Box was sold out by the time I checked in last saturday. I'm still going to play, but you best believe I'm pirating every element I can. Turns out they weren't interested in my $200 *shrug*
Yeah, you go pirate those free PDFs for virtually everything barring the main rulebook and Marines, Orks, and Guard...show them what for!
They've always offered products aimed at beginners/newcomers, but nothing approaching a dedicated, continuously-supported, squad-scale system that uses the same products one would find in a full-fledged game of 40K.
Well, until now. This certainly "approaches" that, but if they don't give it long-term support it will be a lost opportunity. I literally cannot think of a better way of suckering people into the big, prestige systems than by giving them a smaller -- and, importantly, a living -- game that will tempt them into buying the components of a full army bit by bit. You buy one box for your core squad, they release an expansion that gets you to buy another box of different infantry, etc. Before you know it you're sitting on hundreds of points worth of figs, and thinking "hmmm well for X dollars more I basically have a small 40K army..."
It's impossible to pirate a free PDF. I'll be stealing the main rulebook.
With how incredibly easy it is to get every rule you need, all of the scenery there was in the box, there are 3rd party tokens I can't believe the complaining about it going out of stock is still going on :/
Yes, I'm sure it's annoying if you can't get it, but it's not the end of the world. You could literally be playing it now just with the information in this thread and the free Necromunda rules from yaktribe.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
Last time I checked, my eyeballs still don't have the ability to zoom or rotate images in 3D when they'e on a flat page.
And as for the "well, they'll do it for the terrain's own pages" - sure, of course they will, indeed they almost certainly already have, which makes it doubly odd they're not on the page where the terrain was already being sold.
Look, I get it's a small complaint, but folk don't need to defend every single daft wee thing GW do.
Altruizine wrote: They've always offered products aimed at beginners/newcomers, but nothing approaching a dedicated, continuously-supported, squad-scale system that uses the same products one would find in a full-fledged game of 40K.
Sure, although the biggest items in SWA are TEQs, not Dreads, much less Knights... It's a downscaling of 40k back to RT (which had Dreads) levels.
They'll probably get a ruleset around the same time they get a plastic kit.
...I'm not sure whether that statement should be a joke or an actual prediction anymore.
In the meantime, you can probably get away with proxying them with CSM, Scouts, or IG profiles. Assuming you're okay with homebrew rulesets, I'll also likely get started on an SoB profile once I'm satisfied with my Ordos of the Inquisition profile (you can also represent a sister's statline fairly decently with that one as well).
As much as I don't mind homebrewing and proxying up rules, I do hope we see additional supplements forthcoming, be they published as a stand alone product or included as a supplement in WD.
If they realize the demand is there for a low model count game using their existing range, then hopefully they realize further down the line that the more units (of figures they've already manufactured, no less) they include, the better.
Honestly, what better way to sucker some of us into buying a box or two of models we like (but have no interest in starting an entire new army) than by having a go to game where I can play them as soon as I finish gluing them?
A skirmish level game is going to get me to buy the product, whereas I am not going to invest in starting an entire new army to collect and paint.
Yodhrin wrote: folk don't need to defend every single daft wee thing GW do.
Or bitch about every single daft wee thing GW do, for that matter.
Complaining has an utility, since at least it can makes GW notice and change some of their decisions. Blindly defending them is as useless as it gets.
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highlord tamburlaine wrote: As much as I don't mind homebrewing and proxying up rules, I do hope we see additional supplements forthcoming, be they published as a stand alone product or included as a supplement in WD.
If they realize the demand is there for a low model count game using their existing range, then hopefully they realize further down the line that the more units (of figures they've already manufactured, no less) they include, the better.
Honestly, what better way to sucker some of us into buying a box or two of models we like (but have no interest in starting an entire new army) than by having a go to game where I can play them as soon as I finish gluing them?
A skirmish level game is going to get me to buy the product, whereas I am not going to invest in starting an entire new army to collect and paint.
TO be honest, I'm not too surprised that GW is so disconnected from its player base that they were surprised that this sold so well (even thought most players have been asking for this for years), and still seems to fail to realise that such a game probably wouldn't cannibalize the sale of 40k, but be a perfect gateway drug and reason for veteran to buy models that they like but don't want to start an army of (I'm buying the MT start collecting and Ogryn because of this game). They are, after all, the same company that tought that we would appreciate rules that force us to sing, shout, dance and insult each other.
I am wondering how many people here that are being angry about the mail order pre-order, have actually contacted their local gaming store?
Because that's the first thing I did.. was hit up a local store as them if they had allocation left, they said yes and put my name down for one.
Very easy and I will be picking up my nice new game on Saturday, and be reading and putting it all together while playing the new Stelaris expansion.. Life is good
I'm pretty sure that those that complains either don't live near one or it is already sold out in their area, since usually, you don't buy at GW site if you can avoid it, since price are usually higher than the one you get in a LGS.
streetsamurai wrote: Complaining has an utility, since at least it can makes GW notice and change some of their decisions.
Of course, complaining about "about every single daft wee thing GW do" might actually discourage GW from listening because we (posters on message boards) can be dismissed as Never Happy About Anything, which is actually not a bad summary of Yodhrin's posts. I went to my local WH Store the other day and overheard a couple of customers there talking about how sour Dakka Dakka can be. I happen to like that we can host criticism because we are independent. But by the same token, it's also OK to push back on some of the absurd complaints - like overlooking that GW provided pics of the new terrain sprues in favor of complaining that there isn't a 360 spin pic.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
So I can pay GW to see decent images of things I might want to buy?
Cool!
Don't pretend there isn't a scan of the whole thing on the net somewhere (and probably linked in this thread)... ;-)
Ok, so rather than going to the vendor's website I can go and find some images "on the net somewhere?"
Cool!
You see where this is going? There's basically no reason for the very best images of something I can't yet see physically in person being freely available from the company that wants to sell it to me.
For free, and without having to go digging for them.
You guys fancy pointing out the part where I defended the lack of GW website images? In fact, I pointed out they had a tonne more they could have added. Which somehow got taken as me being a white knight. Plenty of hostility on the net without finding some that isn't there. ;-)
GodDamUser wrote: I am wondering how many people here that are being angry about the mail order pre-order, have actually contacted their local gaming store?
I think this is the feeling in Nottingham, considering the edit to the sales page on their site today. OTOH the bigger issue is how irritating it is to have to be ready within five minutes of the product being listed on the website to spend $130 or forever miss out. People complaining about this being not only limited but so limited against so much demand that the US site sold out in literally 5 minutes ... I think they have a valid point!
highlord tamburlaine wrote: As much as I don't mind homebrewing and proxying up rules, I do hope we see additional supplements forthcoming, be they published as a stand alone product or included as a supplement in WD.
If they realize the demand is there for a low model count game using their existing range, then hopefully they realize further down the line that the more units (of figures they've already manufactured, no less) they include, the better.
Honestly, what better way to sucker some of us into buying a box or two of models we like (but have no interest in starting an entire new army) than by having a go to game where I can play them as soon as I finish gluing them?
A skirmish level game is going to get me to buy the product, whereas I am not going to invest in starting an entire new army to collect and paint.
On the subject of suckering us into buying more models, I'm a bit disappointed with Special Ops. I'd have preferred a more Mordheim styled approach to heroes, with more specialized specialists that focus more on regular roster members..
streetsamurai wrote: Complaining has an utility, since at least it can makes GW notice and change some of their decisions.
Of course, complaining about "about every single daft wee thing GW do" might actually discourage GW from listening because we (posters on message boards) can be dismissed as Never Happy About Anything, which is actually not a bad summary of Yodhrin's posts. I went to my local WH Store the other day and overheard a couple of customers there talking about how sour Dakka Dakka can be. I happen to like that we can host criticism because we are independent. But by the same token, it's also OK to push back on some of the absurd complaints - like overlooking that GW provided pics of the new terrain sprues in favor of complaining that there isn't a 360 spin pic.
Personally I don't see how asking for such a pic is an abusive complaint. It's not the end of the world and I haven't seen anyone claim it is) but it would have been a nice touch
Can you bring those goal posts back over here please?
As usual, this comes down to assuming that GW is incompetent when the issue could be more easily ascribed to having finite resources and being on a schedule. I guess you could spin it as a teachable moment for poor benighted GW. Perhaps if they had 360 pics of the terrain, the US site's entire stock would have sold through in four minutes rather than five. Better luck next time! Ah well, lesson learned. But more likely, this is just an excuse to complain and should be dismissed accordingly.
If anything bears complaint, it's GW still being out of touch with its market - specifically, the market for its own products (which is how it has defined its market over the last decade). They did admit on FB to being shocked about how fast they sold through Shadow War. I can see being shocked that it went in 5-20 minutes. But yes of course people want official skirmish rules for their 40k collections. This part shouldn't have been a surprise.
Can you bring those goal posts back over here please?
As usual, this comes down to assuming that GW is incompetent when the issue could be more easily ascribed to having finite resources and being on a schedule. I guess you could spin it as a teachable moment for poor benighted GW. Perhaps if they had 360 pics of the terrain, the US site's entire stock would have sold through in four minutes rather than five. Better luck next time! Ah well, lesson learned. But more likely, this is just an excuse to complain and should be dismissed accordingly.
If anything bears complaint, it's GW still being out of touch with its market - specifically, the market for its own products (which is how it has defined its market over the last decade). They did admit on FB to being shocked about how fast they sold through Shadow War. I can see being shocked that it went in 5-20 minutes. But yes of course people want official skirmish rules for their 40k collections. This part shouldn't have been a surprise.
THis doesn't make sense at all. In what way does my post consist in moving goal post?
and a 360 pic having something to do with finite ressources and time limitations? I might be wrong, but I don't think these take a long time to make, nor do they cost a lot of money. And if it is indeed the case, well simple logic dictate that using these limited ressources to show the new sceney in 360 would have been a lot more usefull than using them on 360 of Ork and scouts.
streetsamurai wrote: I don't think these take a long time to make, nor do they cost a lot of money.
But so what? The only question is, is it more reasonable to assume they fethed up or that they correctly concluded it was not a high priority relative to other matters? Now I get it, we all want to see more of these new things.* Because we want them. That's the key - we want the pics because we already want the goods; we don't need the pics to want the goods. And customers hemming and hawing, who need 360 pics to decide, well never fear there will almost certainly be 360 pics of the kits to hem and haw over when those kits get released.
*some even managed to pry a bit of dosh from our trap-like wallets to buy WD this month, wot!
I agree. The only reason I am bothering to respond this time - after ignoring these kind of quibbles for years now - is because I just recently IN REAL LIFE came across people complaining about this site because yes we do have posters who cast their eyes over a great release only to pronounce ... "what no 360 pics?"
kronk wrote: However, that doesn't make me any less disappointed that there weren't spin picks of the fething terrain. Just offering an explanation.
I'd hazard that's because the Notcromunda box has 2 and a bit full kits, and rather than do 360's of what kits (which we will get), and include them with something that doesn't actually come with exactly what's in the picture, they left it a few alternate configuration shots using only what comes in the box.
Manchu wrote: As usual, this comes down to assuming that GW is incompetent when the issue could be more easily ascribed to having finite resources and being on a schedule.
Incompetence is a shorter bow to draw than some of the 'they short-stocked us on purpose!' conspiracy theories we're getting here, but I believe you're more talking about 360 photos than the release in general, yes?
Except Scions are in carapace armour, and the Sisters have always been in power armour. The weapon options for Scions also don't fit at all, because they can't take Bolters and Sisters don't use lasguns. Special weapons are alright, at least they fit, but there's one majorly important thing you're forgetting- you only ever get one Scion and it costs you a Promethium Cache each game, outside of counts as using regular veterans.
Just a question, have you ever thought IG Veterans in 40k are a suitable counts as profile for Sisters? Cause I've never met or even heard of someone who believes that
H.B.M.C. wrote: Incompetence is a shorter bow to draw than some of the 'they short-stocked us on purpose!' conspiracy theories we're getting here, but I believe you're more talking about 360 photos than the release in general, yes?
Correct - you and I seem to be on the same page as to the other matter:
Manchu wrote: If anything bears complaint, it's GW still being out of touch with its market - specifically, the market for its own products (which is how it has defined its market over the last decade). They did admit on FB to being shocked about how fast they sold through Shadow War. I can see being shocked that it went in 5-20 minutes. But yes of course people want official skirmish rules for their 40k collections. This part shouldn't have been a surprise.
Rygnan wrote: Except Scions are in carapace armour, and the Sisters have always been in power armour.
Careful mate, you're responding to someone with dangerous ideas about taking PA away from our Sisters.
Yeah, DakkaDakka its like an old west saloon full of hardened veterans that have seen everything and just point how all things can be better before spiting on a spittoon.
And no, I don't say this to criticied it, this its the place where I have leanerd more about this hobby than anywhere else, but normally things that I didn't expect to learn, like miniature fabrication process, economical and marketing strategies, etc...
Just a question, have you ever thought IG Veterans in 40k are a suitable counts as profile for Sisters?
Sisters as Stormtroopers / Carapace Veterans? Yes, absolutely. I am totally OK with Sisters wearing count as Carapace, armed with count as Hotshot Lasguns.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I am totally OK with Sisters wearing count as Carapace, armed with count as Hotshot Lasguns.
Spoiler:
For shame!
Galas wrote: Yeah, DakkaDakka its like an old west saloon full of hardened veterans that have seen everything and just point how all things can be better before spiting on a spittoon.
LOL but we haven't! If you look back, you'll find years' worth of predictions that GW will be out of business in short order - but basically no predictions that things would turn around so dramatically and all these awesome releases would be streaming in one after another. Take the salt with a grain of salt! Or should that be, take the grain of salt with a tall glass of water?
kronk wrote: However, that doesn't make me any less disappointed that there weren't spin picks of the fething terrain. Just offering an explanation.
I'd hazard that's because the Notcromunda box has 2 and a bit full kits, and rather than do 360's of what kits (which we will get), and include them with something that doesn't actually come with exactly what's in the picture, they left it a few alternate configuration shots using only what comes in the box.
Just a question, have you ever thought IG Veterans in 40k are a suitable counts as profile for Sisters?
Sisters as Stormtroopers / Carapace Veterans? Yes, absolutely. I am totally OK with Sisters wearing count as Carapace, armed with count as Hotshot Lasguns.
I saw them today. I think they are on par with Space marines, or Sisters of Battle.
They have bolters. Swords, and special weapon load outs.
Except Scions are in carapace armour, and the Sisters have always been in power armour. The weapon options for Scions also don't fit at all, because they can't take Bolters and Sisters don't use lasguns. Special weapons are alright, at least they fit, but there's one majorly important thing you're forgetting- you only ever get one Scion and it costs you a Promethium Cache each game, outside of counts as using regular veterans.
Just a question, have you ever thought IG Veterans in 40k are a suitable counts as profile for Sisters? Cause I've never met or even heard of someone who believes that
Ironically, I think Sisters would be best represented by Chaos Marines. They have all the proper equipment, though the stats are a bit better. You could pretend they're a more veteran unit or some such.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
So I can pay GW to see decent images of things I might want to buy?
Cool!
Don't pretend there isn't a scan of the whole thing on the net somewhere (and probably linked in this thread)... ;-)
Ok, so rather than going to the vendor's website I can go and find some images "on the net somewhere?"
Cool!
You see where this is going? There's basically no reason for the very best images of something I can't yet see physically in person being freely available from the company that wants to sell it to me.
For free, and without having to go digging for them.
You guys fancy pointing out the part where I defended the lack of GW website images? In fact, I pointed out they had a tonne more they could have added. Which somehow got taken as me being a white knight. Plenty of hostility on the net without finding some that isn't there. ;-)
Firstly, nobody used white knight until you did.
Secondly, it is very difficult to take "but do this alternative thing" as anything but an attempt to excuse the current status quo by diminishing the issue because "you can do this alternative thing instead." Diminishing someone's objections is pretty much impossible to take as anything but a defence of whatever it is that's attracting criticism.
You made poor points, points which anyone participating in the thread would almost certainly already have been aware of, and points which didn't actually address the core issue Yodhrin raised.
Finally, there's no hostility, only responses to a not terribly strong counter argument, any hostility you've invested into the posts yourself.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
So I can pay GW to see decent images of things I might want to buy?
Cool!
Don't pretend there isn't a scan of the whole thing on the net somewhere (and probably linked in this thread)... ;-)
Ok, so rather than going to the vendor's website I can go and find some images "on the net somewhere?"
Cool!
You see where this is going? There's basically no reason for the very best images of something I can't yet see physically in person being freely available from the company that wants to sell it to me.
For free, and without having to go digging for them.
You guys fancy pointing out the part where I defended the lack of GW website images? In fact, I pointed out they had a tonne more they could have added. Which somehow got taken as me being a white knight. Plenty of hostility on the net without finding some that isn't there. ;-)
Firstly, nobody used white knight until you did.
Secondly, it is very difficult to take "but do this alternative thing" as anything but an attempt to excuse the current status quo by diminishing the issue because "you can do this alternative thing instead." Diminishing someone's objections is pretty much impossible to take as anything but a defence of whatever it is that's attracting criticism.
You made poor points, points which anyone participating in the thread would almost certainly already have been aware of, and points which didn't actually address the core issue Yodhrin raised.
Finally, there's no hostility, only responses to a not terribly strong counter argument, any hostility you've invested into the posts yourself.
Well, I have seen the terms of GW fanboys, "children living in his mother house", etc... used in this conversation.
But to clarify - none of these have any rules for use in Shadow War.
To this, I'm just going to keep my mouth shut...
All models. teams. New figures that just came out. THIS being a "limited" run..... You do know where this is going.
When is the next edition of the game on deck to come out?
So is that mouth shut? Seems like mouth open.
I hope GW supports Shadow War by publishing lists for every faction. I think that would be very well-received and that it would move product. But will GW do it? After all, Shadow War was in fact a limited release.
GodDamUser wrote: well sure the non modular terrain has 360 views.. but the modular terrain, such as cities of death do not as like stated, no set way to build them
GodDamUser wrote: well sure the non modular terrain has 360 views.. but the modular terrain, such as cities of death do not as like stated, no set way to build them
Modular terrain with 360 degree views.
I'm not counting terrain that has only 1 set way to assemble as Modular
GodDamUser wrote: well sure the non modular terrain has 360 views.. but the modular terrain, such as cities of death do not as like stated, no set way to build them
Modular terrain with 360 degree views.
I'm not counting terrain that has only 1 set way to assemble as Modular
And none of the sets I listed have one set way to assemble it.
Except Scions are in carapace armour, and the Sisters have always been in power armour. The weapon options for Scions also don't fit at all, because they can't take Bolters and Sisters don't use lasguns. Special weapons are alright, at least they fit, but there's one majorly important thing you're forgetting- you only ever get one Scion and it costs you a Promethium Cache each game, outside of counts as using regular veterans.
Just a question, have you ever thought IG Veterans in 40k are a suitable counts as profile for Sisters? Cause I've never met or even heard of someone who believes that
Ironically, I think Sisters would be best represented by Chaos Marines. They have all the proper equipment, though the stats are a bit better. You could pretend they're a more veteran unit or some such.
While I hope GW puts out rules for more factions and variant lists, I doubt we can rely on that beyond GW giving us 20 more marine chapters no one asked for. There is the Inquisimunda community that has written a good number of faction rulesets compatible with Necromunda... I hope if they are compatible enough we can see a broader acceptance of those rules as stop-gaps.
This tangent does afford an opportunity to discuss how suitable or unsuitable a lot of the existing terrain pieces are for Shadow War. Most of what's available emphasizes breaking up the surface of the play area as opposed to verticality. Which existing terrain pieces would be best for Shadow War?
You can really make that stuff as tall as you want really.. I played a 40k game once on a piece that was 7 levels high
You just need to clearly have worked out where the 'ladders' are. We generally played it when playing Necro on CoD terrain, anywhere on a floor tile that had a hatch had a ladder leading up to it for when we didn't have enough ladders
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz wrote: With the other sections listed, obviously. That doesn't make them any less modular.
That's not really a modular kit then.. that just means it can be combined.
They are still individual kits that have a intended configuration
While CoD and these new Shadow War pieces can be made any way you like
Ghaz wrote: With the other sections listed, obviously. That doesn't make them any less modular.
That's not really a modular kit then.. that just means it can be combined.
They are still individual kits that have a intended configuration
While CoD and these new Shadow War pieces can be made any way you like
Yes. It is a modular kit since it can be added to other kits in different configurations. Just because you can't use the kit to make alternate builds does not mean its not modular.
Got my copy yesterday. Have to say that I'm impressed with terrain and the rulebook. Though I still doubt I'll be playing it. Maybe read the fluff part for once
Yeah - regardless of what "modular" means to a given person, it's clear that kits like the Tidewall are not "modular" is the same sense as the Shadow War stuff.
Manchu wrote: This tangent does afford an opportunity to discuss how suitable or unsuitable a lot of the existing terrain pieces are for Shadow War. Most of what's available emphasizes breaking up the surface of the play area as opposed to verticality. Which existing terrain pieces would be best for Shadow War?
I think a simple rule is whatever you have bought, you want more than one of.
Verticality can be a problem in Necro as a heavy stubber in cover on 3-4 level podium can dominate a 4' x 4' table, so if you have a tower of some sort you might want some of the new Ferro-Furnace type kits to break up higher fire corridors.
At ground level I think anything you buy will add to the game, so yeah defence line and even The Khirne Skull Fort Playset will do the trick. I've played some very good games on single level Zone Mortalis type terrain (homemade corridors using foam) that once it was packed with crates and computer terminal type scatter terrain was a very offering experience that offered an additional tactical element beyond 'hide from the heavy'.
Of course there are other companies that do terrain and I'd suggest anyone that wants to get a really challenging game needs to go and get as much scatter tarragon as they can get. There are a number of companies that do MDF crates and pallets which are best. By way of example I'm playing Necromunda tonight and I've got a 40k box with about 100+ pieces to throw on the table. Allot of mine is resin bits from Micro Arts Studio as well.
Anyway the message to anyone new is don't scrimp on terrain in Necro/SWA, most weapons are deadly and armour is negated allot of the time so you want cover, lots and lots of cover. A soldier in the open is going to go out of action quickly.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Or, like, a whole massive WD feature's worth on the terrain... they took plenty of photos in multiple paint schemes.
So I can pay GW to see decent images of things I might want to buy?
Cool!
Don't pretend there isn't a scan of the whole thing on the net somewhere (and probably linked in this thread)... ;-)
Ok, so rather than going to the vendor's website I can go and find some images "on the net somewhere?"
Cool!
You see where this is going? There's basically no reason for the very best images of something I can't yet see physically in person being freely available from the company that wants to sell it to me.
For free, and without having to go digging for them.
You guys fancy pointing out the part where I defended the lack of GW website images? In fact, I pointed out they had a tonne more they could have added. Which somehow got taken as me being a white knight. Plenty of hostility on the net without finding some that isn't there. ;-)
Firstly, nobody used white knight until you did.
Secondly, it is very difficult to take "but do this alternative thing" as anything but an attempt to excuse the current status quo by diminishing the issue because "you can do this alternative thing instead." Diminishing someone's objections is pretty much impossible to take as anything but a defence of whatever it is that's attracting criticism.
You made poor points, points which anyone participating in the thread would almost certainly already have been aware of, and points which didn't actually address the core issue Yodhrin raised.
Finally, there's no hostility, only responses to a not terribly strong counter argument, any hostility you've invested into the posts yourself.
No, you didn't use the exact term white Knight but people posted attacking me as if I was acting as one. So it's relevant shorthand to just use that term. Typing out these sentences wasted my brevity.
No, I didn't diminish anything or reject anyone's complaints. I said they had a tonne of photos they could have used. Two people leapt on me. Eh, rereading I get you could misconstrue my meaning but reactions were disproportionate regardless. Not your enemy.
No, I've not invested hostility into the posts myself. People attacked my posts (you're still doing it) so a shorter way of saying that is 'hostility'. I didn't invite attacks or criticism, hell, I getting agree they should have printed sufficient and posted the photos they have. Not your enemy. ;-)
I do think there is significant overreacting going on to all this. It's not the end of the word that a set of mandollies sold out. Be disappointed, sure. Angry? Riiight. Salty? Fair enough. Raging and arguing about it? Go do some hobby.
Feel free to PM me if you'd like to continue your discussion about me and my posts as it's off topic to continue discussing me.
Really stupid anyway because when those kits go up for individual sale they'll have more photos, and Shadow War isn't available on the site at the moment anyway.
The whole "nobody used the term white knight" thing is pitiful too. Exactly as squidhead there said, that's what you were accusing him of, you waste everyone's time with that silly aside. And as for hostility, that's in the eye of the beholder. The sarcasm can certainly be reasonably interpreted as hostility, it's belittling. At least have the balls to stand by it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Re: terrain, I can't recommend Mantic's battlezones terrain highly enough. It's like a meccano set. I got more of it than I could use for about £40 in one of the big sets, from a discounter. Lots of scope for multi level buildings, corridors, gantries, mix of los blocking and non blocking bulkheads, etc. Really fantastic stuff.
Re: terrain, I can't recommend Mantic's battlezones terrain highly enough. It's like a meccano set. I got more of it than I could use for about £40 in one of the big sets, from a discounter. Lots of scope for multi level buildings, corridors, gantries, mix of los blocking and non blocking bulkheads, etc. Really fantastic stuff.
I've been toying with getting one of the large sets, probably the huge industrial set, but I've had some really crappy minis from them in the past, and its put me off ever buying from them again. Plus, the connection pin things are a bit rubbish looking as they have gaps and holes in all the large parts, that seem like too much work to disguise. Shame though, as the set looks like it would be a hell of a lot of fun to play on.
Whilst pretty, the Shadow War terrain isn't actually anywhere near *enough* for a good game using Necromunda rules. You're gonna want a whole bunch more and scatter terrain to boot - barrels, barricades, rocks, anything to break up firelanes. The verticality is fun and a big part of the experience but not having 4ft kill-lanes is as, if not more, important.
The set seems to give about two building's worth compared to old Necro card terrain or my Wargames Tournaments MDF stuff. I regulalry run 4 towers, three platforms, a tonne of walkways as well as homemade shipping containers and barrels galore. That starts feeling dense enough for a game. Play with what's in the SW box and the Scout Heavies and snipers could cut down anyone before they even got close.
Re: terrain, I can't recommend Mantic's battlezones terrain highly enough. It's like a meccano set. I got more of it than I could use for about £40 in one of the big sets, from a discounter. Lots of scope for multi level buildings, corridors, gantries, mix of los blocking and non blocking bulkheads, etc. Really fantastic stuff.
I've been toying with getting one of the large sets, probably the huge industrial set, but I've had some really crappy minis from them in the past, and its put me off ever buying from them again. Plus, the connection pin things are a bit rubbish looking as they have gaps and holes in all the large parts, that seem like too much work to disguise. Shame though, as the set looks like it would be a hell of a lot of fun to play on.
I'm not a fan of mantic's miniatures (at least until Walking Dead, those are lovely) but yeah, I really like those scenery sets. The connectors are a tad fiddly but worth it for how much versatility they bring to the kit. I ended up squeezing them into place with a pair of pliers as they're a really snug fit - it's that or trim them a bit and glue them in.
JohnnyHell wrote: Whilst pretty, the Shadow War terrain isn't actually anywhere near *enough* for a good game using Necromunda rules. You're gonna want a whole bunch more and scatter terrain to boot - barrels, barricades, rocks, anything to break up firelanes. The verticality is fun and a big part of the experience but not having 4ft kill-lanes is as, if not more, important.
The set seems to give about two building's worth compared to old Necro card terrain or my Wargames Tournaments MDF stuff. I regulalry run 4 towers, three platforms, a tonne of walkways as well as homemade shipping containers and barrels galore. That starts feeling dense enough for a game. Play with what's in the SW box and the Scout Heavies and snipers could cut down anyone before they even got close.
Exactly. It's pretty, but it's not enough to play a game on.
Consider the original Necromunda box:
That was just enough. Two sets gave you a great table. Three gave you some height. Throw in Outlanders and you were golden.
This stuff is good, but it's weirdly too high - the jump from 0" to 6" is massive - and it just gets higher if you make more levels, and what's in the box is one big Necro building, one small, and some platforms, far less than what you got.
They must have rewritten the moving up ladders rules, surely? Else it's a Run move to even go up a floor. 3" floors gave the option to climb and shoot. This means you can't take advantage of your newfound vantage point. Boo hiss.
The good thing is that it all mixes quite nicely together. I've got lots of cities of death stuff and some of the Promethium pipes - add to that all the reactors and containers that's already released and now you have this multi level stuff.
I won't get a full board of just this, but a couple boxes of the SW:A and maybe one or two of the individual sets and I'll have a really varied and interesting table that looks like it belongs together.
Vorian wrote: The good thing is that it all mixes quite nicely together. I've got lots of cities of death stuff and some of the Promethium pipes - add to that all the reactors and containers that's already released and now you have this multi level stuff.
I won't get a full board of just this, but a couple boxes of the SW:A and maybe one or two of the individual sets and I'll have a really varied and interesting table that looks like it belongs together.
My group went with SW:A, Munitorum containers, haemotrope reactors and promethium pipes. Should give up a nice base to start from and all interchangeable.
Don't forget that there are those terrain bundles coming out at the end of the year. One of the 40K ones has 2 Void Shield Generators (which are set to fit with this stuff), one Blood Reactor for the Blood Reactor God, and some pipes.
Well I ordered one off Wayland about 12:00 on Saturday (which might not get fulfilled and then reserved a copy yesterday at a local store because there's a chance Wayland might have oversubscribed.
It's not like I've even had to try very hard and if Wayland doesn't come through I'll just get a few extra of the terrain sets. *shrug*
H.B.M.C. wrote: Don't forget that there are those terrain bundles coming out at the end of the year. One of the 40K ones has 2 Void Shield Generators (which are set to fit with this stuff), one Blood Reactor for the Blood Reactor God, and some pipes.
I've not I had zero interest in these when they were announced, but now I'm pretty likely to get one!
Lady Atia said this in a comment on one of her blog posts:
This release is really quite a mess. Let's hope they lerned and the next Shadow War box will be better ...
Not sure if she's speculating, or just assuming, that there will be more products in the Shadow War line. Maybe a once a year new version with a different theme/different terrain, like the update to Silver Tower?
So wait, ten pages later after I noticed they were sold out, and I can't tell if they're going to put them back in production again. What the hell is going on over there in Nottingham?
Looks like there won't be a reprint/restock of the box itself. The rules and rules for additional factions will be available at some point in the future with the terrain available separately.
This just popped up on the Warhammer Community page:
Shadow War: Armageddon – Rules Support
So, it turns out that a lot of you are really keen to get your hands on Shadow War: Armageddon.
The new boxed game of skirmish warfare, set in the industrial sprawl of an Imperial hive world, went on sale last weekend. We had known this would be a popular game, combining elements of the classic Necromunda rules set with some fantastic new Warhammer 40,000 modular terrain, but we hadn’t expected the demand to be as high as it was – the box sold out online within minutes.
There will be copies in stores this weekend, but again, we are expecting demand to be high, and this might still leave some of you who were keen to play, with no way of getting your hands on the rules.
Don’t worry though – we we have some good news for you.
We will be making the rules for this game are more widely available, very soon.
Not only that, but following requests we’ve received throughout this week, our rules team are also looking to expand the number of playable factions in the game.
We’ll bring you news on exactly how and when you’ll be able to get ahold of the rules outside of the box, and the new factions, just as soon as we can.
For those of you who were keen to get your hands on the terrain content from the box, the new modular Sector Mechanicus scenery pieces will be available separately, and you can pre-order those kits this weekend. These work really well as Warhammer 40,000 scenery pieces for any war zone, and they can combine together to create some really spectacular battlefields.
So, whether it’s the rules for the game or the scenery you’re after, you will be able to get your hands on it.
More news soon.
And even before that, you can still join in on Shadow War: Armageddon campaigns in local stores, with just a single box of Warhammer 40,000 infantry.
Find your local store HERE and contact them to learn more about how to get involved.
Was just about to post the Warhammer Community link. Sounds like good news, and shows that they are listening to what people are saying and asking for.
So far that's good news at least rules-wise. If they do another print or two of the boxed game it won't be within a week or two - that stuff takes a bit of time.
Re: terrain, I can't recommend Mantic's battlezones terrain highly enough. It's like a meccano set. I got more of it than I could use for about £40 in one of the big sets, from a discounter. Lots of scope for multi level buildings, corridors, gantries, mix of los blocking and non blocking bulkheads, etc. Really fantastic stuff.
I've been toying with getting one of the large sets, probably the huge industrial set, but I've had some really crappy minis from them in the past, and its put me off ever buying from them again. Plus, the connection pin things are a bit rubbish looking as they have gaps and holes in all the large parts, that seem like too much work to disguise. Shame though, as the set looks like it would be a hell of a lot of fun to play on.
Well, I'm with Bull0 on this. I just wish this Battlezone stuff had been around when I first bought Necromunda many years ago. It's great for making multilevel buildings and walkways.
The only thing I'd advise though, it to build several small fixed buildings that sit together. Don't expect to be able to disconnect parts. I glued all my small sections together, they then sit on the board with gangplanks and walkways between them.
Mind you, it's a pointless exercise pointing out when something is good from a company other than GW on dakka these days, as you get shot down, especially in a GW orientated thread like this.
EDIT: As for the latest community message. I'm hoping to be wrong, but it just smells of an ebook release.
Does this mean the full rules will be free to download or that they'll get out a quick run of paperback rulebooks? Would the latter be feasible within a "very soon" time window?
Maybe if you, y'know, *did some basic market research* (duh) like every other successful company out there in the history of like forever, you might not drop the ball like this?
Not-not-kenny wrote: Does this mean the full rules will be free to download or that they'll get out a quick run of paperback rulebooks? Would the latter be feasible within a "very soon" time window?
Free? Not bloody likely.
Paperback? Not bloody likely.
I'd imagine an eBook format for $X. Again, I'd like to be proven wrong, but nothing in GW's recent history makes me think they'll go either of those first two routes.
Not-not-kenny wrote: Does this mean the full rules will be free to download or that they'll get out a quick run of paperback rulebooks? Would the latter be feasible within a "very soon" time window?
Only if the books are already printed and bound. It takes about 2-3 months lead time for a print run, assuming the printers have an opening for it.
OK they even admitted to underestimating demand - at this point there is no need to pile on.
Think about how far this company has come in such a short time: something goes wrong, the customers ask them to fix it, they admit something went wrong, and announce plans to fix it while specifically acknowleding customer feedback. Not long ago, there would have been (a) no venue to address customer concerns, (b) no acknowledment that there is a problem, and (c) nothing at all done.
It's so nice to be able to genuinely like GW again!
Not-not-kenny wrote: Does this mean the full rules will be free to download or that they'll get out a quick run of paperback rulebooks? Would the latter be feasible within a "very soon" time window?
Only if the books are already printed and bound. It takes about 2-3 months lead time for a print run, assuming the printers have an opening for it.
Not very likely then. Hmm this might be my first digital purchase from GW ever.
Rules to become available online, more factions added, and all the terrain will be available separately. Looks like GW is serious about supporting the players again!
Tamwulf wrote: Rules to become available online, more factions added, and all the terrain will be available separately. Looks like GW is serious about supporting the players again!
Manchu wrote: OK they even admitted to underestimating demand - at this point there is no need to pile on.
Think about how far this company has come in such a short time: something goes wrong, the customers ask them to fix it, they admit something went wrong, and announce plans to fix it while specifically acknowleding customer feedback. Not long ago, there would have been (a) no venue to address customer concerns, (b) no acknowledment that there is a problem, and (c) nothing at all done.
It's so nice to be able to genuinely like GW again!
Just wait til they relaunch the official forums. Hopefully the more toxic side of the fanbase won't ruin that again.
Tamwulf wrote: Rules to become available online, more factions added, and all the terrain will be available separately. Looks like GW is serious about supporting the players again!
I don't see where they say the rules will be available online.
They don't say the rules will be available online. What they actually said was...
"We will be making the rules for this game are more widely available, very soon."
"We’ll bring you news on exactly how and when you’ll be able to get ahold of the rules outside of the box, and the new factions, just as soon as we can."
"So, whether it’s the rules for the game or the scenery you’re after, you will be able to get your hands on it."
"More news soon."
Sounds to me like they're trying to work out a plan. Throwing the rules up on WarhammerDigital would make a ton of sense and is probably the easiest option. Making a physical book would require some work and printing. If nothing else, the book in the big box doesn't have a barcode, so would need a new back cover before being ready for solo retail.
I'd imagine an eBook format for $X. Again, I'd like to be proven wrong, but nothing in GW's recent history makes me think they'll go either of those first two routes.
The quickest/easiest way to get the rules into people's hands is through an electronic release.
It's probably a safe bet that the rules will end up on the Black Library site as an ePub and as an enhanced iBook for a little bit more money. Just like the Kill Team rules. I'm going to guess the price will be higher than Kill Team as the book has four times the page count.
What happy news! Now the only bummer (still a valid bummer) is people who wanted the moneysaving box set, red templates and counters, but at least they wont be frozen out completely and there's decent life in the game if the rules are going to be available separately and more factions are being added. Yay
Would also be the quickest way to get them out there.
To me, 'online' and 'digital' have different meanings.
I'm curious. What would you say is the difference between online and digital in the context of a GW rule book?
'Online' by itself would be like the PDF for the different factions. 'Digital' or 'Online as an e-book' would be an epub, etc.
Ah. Gotcha.
It'll be interesting to see what they end up doing. It looks like most factions will be able to field a team for about $50. It'll be insane, but standard GW operating policy, if the rule aren't SIGNIFICANTLY below that.
Also, I tried to shorten Shadow War Armageddon down to SWA, but that clearly means Star Wars Armada in the table top miniatures world. First world problems.
This is definitely good news. I just hope that if they do a digital release they give us an option for a pdf. GW's new rules ebooks format (aka Kill Team) is terrible , I can't read it on my Kindle, it doesn't work well on my my phone, and out of 7 or 8 ebook readers on my computer none of them format it correctly. Not to mention no option to print.
Rules coming very soon. Extra factions coming soon.
Hands held up 'we messed this up and utterly underestimated demand'
I wouldn't say this is significant, quite the opposite in fact.
It says the exact same thing it did Saturday, just with some pictures and a few more words! Its not even very well written, seems rather rushed, and considering its several days after the event, I was expecting a much better, and more concise response, being that they waited until half way through the week to repeat what they said on facebook Saturday.
The only real additional thing is the part about extra factions. But even then , that was kinda a given, considering they hinted at white dwarf printing them over the next few months anyway.
Oh well, looks like I will be sticking to my older, free GW rule sets, and spending my cash on other things.
The artwork depicts Lieutenant Tyna Ulanti of the Necromunda XXXVIth, aka – the Hell-Hive Tigers and yes, that's new artwork. Or at least not one I've ever seen before.
BrookM wrote: The artwork depicts Lieutenant Tyna Ulanti
I've heard of hair like a rat nest but hair like a servo-sull nest?
RexHavoc wrote: It says the exact same thing it did Saturday
Incorrect. On Saturday, the message was that they would sell a digital version. Today's message is that the rules will be available again - format undisclosed. Furthermore, there was no mention on Saturday of making more lists available.
LOL do you think the employees were just sitting around villainously twirling their moustaches? First, they have their regular work to do beyond damage control for the weekend feeding frenzy. Second, it's not just a matter of snapping one's fingers and the perfect solution - whatever that may be - magically appears. Third, after reaching a decision on how to try to solve this they still need to see if that is logistically feasible. A response within three workdays, vague though it may be, is a huge step in the right direction for a company that only shortly before barely acknowledged the existence of the humans buying their products.
Necros wrote: but I think this would work better as a PDF living rulebook kinda thing
Eh the rules are pretty simple and also very well tested at this point. The core is pretty stable. I'd like to see it expanded via "battletomes" or maybe Annuals collecting WD content.
Bull0 wrote: And I've made up my mind, I-i'm, keepin' my bolter
Yep good news. Hopefully now that GW realise they dropped the ball on this they will keep up the support. A game like Shadow war strikes me as a good way to shift terrain kits and encourage impulse buys of infantry boxes.
That regimental standard was excellent. A new Necromunda when it arrives would be good, but if they also added new background which was of similar quality to the original, now that would be something.
As someone who hasn't played any Games Workshop games since Necromunda I was very tempted to pick up the boxed game so it's a shame that a full reprint of the boxed game doesn't seem to be on the cards. I know they have said they would make all the components available but having it discounted in a ready to play box was much more tempting and a lot easier to impulse buy without trying to think about possible squad lists and buying the correct boxes.
Aeneades wrote: As someone who hasn't played any Games Workshop games since Necromunda I was very tempted to pick up the boxed game so it's a shame that a full reprint of the boxed game doesn't seem to be on the cards. I know they have said they would make all the components available but having it discounted in a ready to play box was much more tempting and a lot easier to impulse buy without trying to think about possible squad lists and buying the correct boxes.
Buying the correct boxes?
Barring Mission Specialists, isn't every kill team in the game out of just one single box except for SM scouts (which for some reason have a separate box for sniper rifles)?
I suppose you can use the command and infantry box for IG vets too. Everything else is exactly what it says on the tin though.
Not exactly. Eldar would "possibly" require Dire Avengers (comically priced), a box of Guardians, and possibly a grav platform depending on you get your guardians.
I don't know if anyone else has written to GW but I did.. and here's the response I got.
Thank you so much for taking the time to put down your thoughts in this email with regards to Shadow War Armageddon, and of the impact of some of our previous business decisions. We do take all feedback very seriously from our customers, so this email has been passed on to the relevant heads of departments to look into.
At this moment in time, it is only the web allocation that has sold out, and the box will be available in our stores and independent retailers on Saturday the 8th of April, so there is still hope for you to get hold of a box. To find a store near you, please use our Store Finder (see link below):
If you still find the set unavailable to you (no local stores), then we do individually offer the miniatures on our web store (the box set features existing Space Marine and Ork miniatures). Also, as shown in White Dwarf, the scenery will be available individually soon. The rules content is currently exclusive to the box, but the following was posted just today on our Community page:
Watching this thread intently for the noise produced when GW release the rulesbook in whatever format,looking forward to that myself hope it's a physical book though prefer that not the only one either.
Manchu wrote: Haha I love that they gave you an actual "TL;DR" summary.
Yeah, it's a way different tone than last time I talked to GW.. though.. that involved the Chapterhouse case.. but still.. this was super fast and cordial..
u971 wrote: Watching this thread intently for the noise produced when GW release the rulesbook in whatever format,looking forward to that myself hope it's a physical book though prefer that not the only one either.
I updated my post. Customer Service doesn't know the plans just yet.. but from what I posted above that says to me physical book at some point..
MLaw wrote: I don't know if anyone else has written to GW but I did.. and here's the response I got.
Just out of curiosity, where did you send the email to? I would be willing to take the time to send them an email about my thoughts on the release of the new game, and hopes for a new Necromunda.
RexHavoc wrote: It says the exact same thing it did Saturday
Incorrect. On Saturday, the message was that they would sell a digital version. Today's message is that the rules will be available again - format undisclosed. Furthermore, there was no mention on Saturday of making more lists available.
LOL do you think the employees were just sitting around villainously twirling their moustaches? First, they have their regular work to do beyond damage control for the weekend feeding frenzy. Second, it's not just a matter of snapping one's fingers and the perfect solution - whatever that may be - magically appears. Third, after reaching a decision on how to try to solve this they still need to see if that is logistically feasible. A response within three workdays, vague though it may be, is a huge step in the right direction for a company that only shortly before barely acknowledged the existence of the humans buying their products.
Not incorrect at all. So they went from saying 'digital download' to saying in 'some format'. That's the same thing. If they no longer meant a digital download they would have said. Sure, if you over analyse and read between the lines, it MIGHT mean they are looking at a reprint. But for all intents and purposes, the are just saying the rules will be available, which is exactly the message they gave out on Saturday. I'm not interested in reading between lines from a company that is trying to sell me something, I'm going to take what they SAY at face value. Its not my job to decode an advert.
They mentioned during the live stream that, over the coming months, white dwarf would be printing stuff to tie in with this release including new rules and lists. So the new lists were not included in Saturdays message. It still doesn't make it new information, they are just repeating old news to a wider audience, a clever way to pad out what would have been otherwise an incredible short article.
The point about it being the middle the week is more this: Have you actually read today's announcement. Its dreadful. I'm not expecting someone with a masters degree in language to be working their community site, but a little proof reading never hurt anyone.
"Don’t worry though – we we have some good news for you."
"We will be making the rules for this game are more widely available, very soon."
My point is, I wasn't expecting some grand announcement telling us we were all going to be receive a reprint personally delivered to our door by Duncan, but it took them 3 working days to write that and post it up? It is almost cut and paste from their facebook replies on Saturday, and it says nothing of interest, and certainly nothing of any real substance, that we haven't already seen before. It would have taken someone 5 minutes on a monday morning to post something to say, "sorry guys, we are working on a solution, we have no clue how we are going to fix, but we will!"
But waiting till Wednesday evening is joke. I understand there is other things for them to work on, but no other business works like this. Any other business would have that rushed, cut & paste message up monday morning, and they might not have an answer anytime soon, but they wouldn't wait three working days to post what amounts to nothing more than an advertisement for the terrain coming next week.
Sure, I agree its a step in the right direction from how they were several years ago. But its still not good enough for them to escape criticism, when they screw up. Our money shouldn't just fall into their tills, they need to earn it.
MLaw wrote: I don't know if anyone else has written to GW but I did.. and here's the response I got.
Just out of curiosity, where did you send the email to? I would be willing to take the time to send them an email about my thoughts on the release of the new game, and hopes for a new Necromunda.
Oddly enough, the contact us link on the GW-store. It's at the bottom. The responded crazy fast too.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Exactly. Buy a scout box & an ork box. The rules will come out on their own (either officially or not so officially ) later, or in the next rulebook. The terrain will be sold (remember the Tau wall that was lmtd edition too?) separately in several months....
RexHavoc wrote: It says the exact same thing it did Saturday
Incorrect. On Saturday, the message was that they would sell a digital version. Today's message is that the rules will be available again - format undisclosed. Furthermore, there was no mention on Saturday of making more lists available.
LOL do you think the employees were just sitting around villainously twirling their moustaches? First, they have their regular work to do beyond damage control for the weekend feeding frenzy. Second, it's not just a matter of snapping one's fingers and the perfect solution - whatever that may be - magically appears. Third, after reaching a decision on how to try to solve this they still need to see if that is logistically feasible. A response within three workdays, vague though it may be, is a huge step in the right direction for a company that only shortly before barely acknowledged the existence of the humans buying their products.
Not incorrect at all. So they went from saying 'digital download' to saying in 'some format'. That's the same thing. If they no longer meant a digital download they would have said. Sure, if you over analyse and read between the lines, it MIGHT mean they are looking at a reprint. But for all intents and purposes, the are just saying the rules will be available, which is exactly the message they gave out on Saturday. I'm not interested in reading between lines from a company that is trying to sell me something, I'm going to take what they SAY at face value. Its not my job to decode an advert.
They mentioned during the live stream that, over the coming months, white dwarf would be printing stuff to tie in with this release including new rules and lists. So the new lists were not included in Saturdays message. It still doesn't make it new information, they are just repeating old news to a wider audience, a clever way to pad out what would have been otherwise an incredible short article.
The point about it being the middle the week is more this: Have you actually read today's announcement. Its dreadful. I'm not expecting someone with a masters degree in language to be working their community site, but a little proof reading never hurt anyone.
"Don’t worry though – we we have some good news for you."
"We will be making the rules for this game are more widely available, very soon."
My point is, I wasn't expecting some grand announcement telling us we were all going to be receive a reprint personally delivered to our door by Duncan, but it took them 3 working days to write that and post it up? It is almost cut and paste from their facebook replies on Saturday, and it says nothing of interest, and certainly nothing of any real substance, that we haven't already seen before. It would have taken someone 5 minutes on a monday morning to post something to say, "sorry guys, we are working on a solution, we have no clue how we are going to fix, but we will!"
But waiting till Wednesday evening is joke. I understand there is other things for them to work on, but no other business works like this. Any other business would have that rushed, cut & paste message up monday morning, and they might not have an answer anytime soon, but they wouldn't wait three working days to post what amounts to nothing more than an advertisement for the terrain coming next week.
Sure, I agree its a step in the right direction from how they were several years ago. But its still not good enough for them to escape criticism, when they screw up. Our money shouldn't just fall into their tills, they need to earn it.
Maybe step back and take a breather. They have to have actually finished the action for it to be declared a screw up. You can choose to not take it on good faith that they had no idea this would be sold short. That's your decision. You can even decide that they are intentionally trying to piss of potential customers.. that's a strange decision but it's yours to make. What you can't decide is that this matter is concluded and final judgement is ready to be rendered. Until that time, maybe consider a hobby (snicker).. There's a lot of horrible stuff going on right now for people of just about any persuasion to be bent out of shape over.. GW trying to release a game and hitting some (slightly amusing) stumbling blocks are probably the most petty things a person could choose to be upset over in this day and age.
Those have been out for a few days - just the "lists" for the factions not included in the actual rulebook. No rulebook content, and no guard/orks/marines.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Exactly. Buy a scout box & an ork box. The rules will come out on their own (either officially or not so officially ) later, or in the next rulebook. The terrain will be sold (remember the Tau wall that was lmtd edition too?) separately in several months....
My local store allocated had four people sign up for preorders before Saturday (and unfortunately they are only getting 4 copies, not the 12 they asked for), and GW online sold out before I was able to to send payment at 1005 AM. So I've been doing a bit of hunting.
So here's a heads up to all my fellow Americans who missed out : The War Store has a few copies left for phone order (Mine was 126 with their priority flat rate shipping), you can reach them at 6317650047. I hope a few more of you can get your hands on a copy!
RexHavoc wrote: It says the exact same thing it did Saturday
Incorrect. On Saturday, the message was that they would sell a digital version. Today's message is that the rules will be available again - format undisclosed. Furthermore, there was no mention on Saturday of making more lists available.
LOL do you think the employees were just sitting around villainously twirling their moustaches? First, they have their regular work to do beyond damage control for the weekend feeding frenzy. Second, it's not just a matter of snapping one's fingers and the perfect solution - whatever that may be - magically appears. Third, after reaching a decision on how to try to solve this they still need to see if that is logistically feasible. A response within three workdays, vague though it may be, is a huge step in the right direction for a company that only shortly before barely acknowledged the existence of the humans buying their products.
Not incorrect at all. So they went from saying 'digital download' to saying in 'some format'. That's the same thing. If they no longer meant a digital download they would have said. Sure, if you over analyse and read between the lines, it MIGHT mean they are looking at a reprint. But for all intents and purposes, the are just saying the rules will be available, which is exactly the message they gave out on Saturday. I'm not interested in reading between lines from a company that is trying to sell me something, I'm going to take what they SAY at face value. Its not my job to decode an advert.
They mentioned during the live stream that, over the coming months, white dwarf would be printing stuff to tie in with this release including new rules and lists. So the new lists were not included in Saturdays message. It still doesn't make it new information, they are just repeating old news to a wider audience, a clever way to pad out what would have been otherwise an incredible short article.
The point about it being the middle the week is more this: Have you actually read today's announcement. Its dreadful. I'm not expecting someone with a masters degree in language to be working their community site, but a little proof reading never hurt anyone.
"Don’t worry though – we we have some good news for you."
"We will be making the rules for this game are more widely available, very soon."
My point is, I wasn't expecting some grand announcement telling us we were all going to be receive a reprint personally delivered to our door by Duncan, but it took them 3 working days to write that and post it up? It is almost cut and paste from their facebook replies on Saturday, and it says nothing of interest, and certainly nothing of any real substance, that we haven't already seen before. It would have taken someone 5 minutes on a monday morning to post something to say, "sorry guys, we are working on a solution, we have no clue how we are going to fix, but we will!"
But waiting till Wednesday evening is joke. I understand there is other things for them to work on, but no other business works like this. Any other business would have that rushed, cut & paste message up monday morning, and they might not have an answer anytime soon, but they wouldn't wait three working days to post what amounts to nothing more than an advertisement for the terrain coming next week.
Sure, I agree its a step in the right direction from how they were several years ago. But its still not good enough for them to escape criticism, when they screw up. Our money shouldn't just fall into their tills, they need to earn it.
Maybe step back and take a breather. They have to have actually finished the action for it to be declared a screw up. You can choose to not take it on good faith that they had no idea this would be sold short. That's your decision. You can even decide that they are intentionally trying to piss of potential customers.. that's a strange decision but it's yours to make. What you can't decide is that this matter is concluded and final judgement is ready to be rendered. Until that time, maybe consider a hobby (snicker).. There's a lot of horrible stuff going on right now for people of just about any persuasion to be bent out of shape over.. GW trying to release a game and hitting some (slightly amusing) stumbling blocks are probably the most petty things a person could choose to be upset over in this day and age.
Someone isn't allowed to criticize an obvious mistake by GW in a thread about a GW game on a gaming message board because bad things happen in the world? That is ridiculous. Since we are deciding what other people can and can't do, I declare that you aren't allowed to be so ridiculous.
Sabotage! wrote: My local store allocated had four people sign up for preorders before Saturday (and unfortunately they are only getting 4 copies, not the 12 they asked for), and GW online sold out before I was able to to send payment at 1005 AM. So I've been doing a bit of hunting.
This is worrisome indeed.
My local store ordered ten boxes, here's hoping he's getting at least six or so then, otherwise there may be a scrum to get it first amongst those who pre-ordered.
RexHavoc wrote: So they went from saying 'digital download' to saying in 'some format'. That's the same thing.
No, it is quite obviously not the same thing. No "reading between the lines" is necessary. They posted X on FB. They removed that post. Today, they have said something other than X. Speculating on what "something other than X" might mean is not required to understand that "X" and "something other than X" are different.
They didn't wait til Wednesday. The FB post went up very quickly after the US site stock sold through. Somebody thought that a digital release was a sufficient solution. The customers said otherwise directly to GW using a venue GW created for that purpose. I think it is probably significant that GW withdrew the statement about offering a digital product in favor of a statement that was not specific about format - especially considering that customers responded to the first statement with requests for hard copies.
As for the time frame - This is the reality of a company communicating with its customers in real time about resolving a supply/demand issue. I trust that if they did know with certainty what the details of a re-release would look like then they would tell us. And the context is, they don't really need to tell us anything, as demonstrated for a decade. Basically, I am completely in favor of GW responding to fans in hours/days, even if the response includes a few typos, as opposed to NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES as in the bad old days.
None of this consitutes GW "escaping criticism" - this whole thing is actually an example of GWresponding to criticism. It's like, people are so used to this not happening at all, and GW being generally terrible, that they even with a much, much better GW they still can only complain.
Finally - the live stream comment about additional WD content ... YES posting this on the Community page is still a big deal because it also demonstrates that GW is responding to the apparent demand for this product. Maybe it was not important enough to mention except off-handedly in a live stream only X number of people would be watching. But after the stock blowout, GW understand that this is something worth mentioning in a more prominent way - namely because it directly responds to what customers have been telling them since Saturday, both in terms of words and in terms of sales.
Yodhrin wrote: The whole stock mismanagement/Baldric-esque marketing "cunning plan" thing is derp, sure, but what really gets me(now I can actually see them - seriously just because something is out of stock doesn't mean I don't want to look at it GW) is that they did 360's and multiple stills for Scouts and Orks, ancient kits you can find acres of pics of at their own store pages, and like, three not-great stills of the thing people actually want to see; the terrain.
Exactly. Buy a scout box & an ork box. The rules will come out on their own (either officially or not so officially ) later, or in the next rulebook. The terrain will be sold (remember the Tau wall that was lmtd edition too?) separately in several months....
do you guys think this game can be the next big tournament game?
I mean the rules are a lot better than the current 40k, games are smaller and faster and a 2 day campaign is possible.
also no big teams which means it is easier to adept to local meta (regarding the used terrain etc) and it gives much more possibility for modelling/convert stuff
at least I don't see a reason to stick with 40k except that there are no Titans available
boom?
this pdf is available since the box get into pre-order and the new box collections were put on the HP, and it is missing the teams from the box
so you still need the box game if you want to play Orks for now
Will we also be getting a BOOM! for the community post and a BOOOOOOM! for the latest Regimental Standard as well? Nothing is quite as nice as regurgitating news thats been out for a while now.
kodos wrote: at least I don't see a reason to stick with 40k except that there are no Titans available
Shadow War is an ultra small fig count skirmish game that completely excludes vehicles (and even many infantry options, for that matter). It is in no way a replacement for a battle game like 40k.
Sabotage! wrote: My local store allocated had four people sign up for preorders before Saturday (and unfortunately they are only getting 4 copies, not the 12 they asked for), and GW online sold out before I was able to to send payment at 1005 AM. So I've been doing a bit of hunting.
This is worrisome indeed.
My local store ordered ten boxes, here's hoping he's getting at least six or so then, otherwise there may be a scrum to get it first amongst those who pre-ordered.
I hope your store is getting all of the copies they ordered, it might just be a problem with my store's distributor on the West Coast of the US. While my store is somewhat big (probably 2nd largest in the metro area, barring stores that only do MTG), it is an independent store rather than a GW, so I imagine GW stores are more likely to get the amount of copies they requested.
Sabotage! wrote: My local store allocated had four people sign up for preorders before Saturday (and unfortunately they are only getting 4 copies, not the 12 they asked for), and GW online sold out before I was able to to send payment at 1005 AM. So I've been doing a bit of hunting.
This is worrisome indeed.
My local store ordered ten boxes, here's hoping he's getting at least six or so then, otherwise there may be a scrum to get it first amongst those who pre-ordered.
I hope your store is getting all of the copies they ordered, it might just be a problem with my store's distributor on the West Coast of the US. While my store is somewhat big (probably 2nd largest in the metro area, barring stores that only do MTG), it is an independent store rather than a GW, so I imagine GW stores are more likely to get the amount of copies they requested.
I fear the worst as this is also an independent stockist (competing with two other independents and an official GW store, all located within 200 meters of one another) and whoever GW assigned to this store as the contact for fulfilling its orders is a fething idiot.
"We want three copies of codex: Crimson Slaughter, but instead we got three batches of Carroburg Crimson."
An ongoing saga right now is getting the novel Kingsblade, but this idiot either keeps forgetting to add it to the order orrrrrrr in case of the first time around sent the store an Imperial Knight kit, close enough right! What the feth..?
kodos wrote: at least I don't see a reason to stick with 40k except that there are no Titans available
Shadow War is an ultra small fig count skirmish game that completely excludes vehicles (and even many infantry options, for that matter). It is in no way a replacement for a battle game like 40k.
of course it cannot replace Apocalypse battle games like 40k but there is no reason to use 40k as tournament game except for Apo-games are coll and there is nothing else available from GW.
and scaling down 40k to 1000 points for tournaments seem not an option because all just want to get bigger
so this would be the best chance to switch to something better suited for tournaments
That sounds awful BrookM - my very limited experience dealing indirectly with GW distro through a LGS was 100% satisfactory. Store manager explained that GW rep was on the ball. At that point, it was one of the few things we could say nice about GW.
Tamwulf wrote: Rules to become available online, more factions added, and all the terrain will be available separately. Looks like GW is serious about supporting the players again!
Posts like this are annoying because they miss basic information:
1. They never said the rules would be available online.
2. They're looking into doing new factions. I'm looking into rocket science, but it doesn't mean I'm going to get there.
3. The terrain was always going to come out separately. We've known that since the start.
This isn't a case of GW being "serious about supporting the players". This is GW making some vague promises to do something in the future with the rules, and spruiking their plastic terrain release which was already set to happen a week from now.
kodos wrote: but there is no reason to use 40k as tournament game except for Apo-games
Sorry but I honestly don't understand this point. Shadow War is operates on a per figure basis. There are no vehicles. There are very few infantry choices. The game is meant to be played in a campaign over several sessions. None of this adds up to any size game of 40k, a game that uses units, has vehicles, and is played on a one-off/pick-up basis.
kodos wrote: do you guys think this game can be the next big tournament game?
I mean the rules are a lot better than the current 40k, games are smaller and faster and a 2 day campaign is possible.
also no big teams which means it is easier to adept to local meta (regarding the used terrain etc) and it gives much more possibility for modelling/convert stuff
at least I don't see a reason to stick with 40k except that there are no Titans available
boom?
this pdf is available since the box get into pre-order and the new box collections were put on the HP, and it is missing the teams from the box
so you still need the box game if you want to play Orks for now
Poor guy, he's completely humiliating himself in his rush to defend GW
H.B.M.C. wrote: This isn't a case of GW being "serious about supporting the players". This is GW making some vague promises to do something in the future with the rules
I don't think that is the correct dichotomy. I think it is more like, "GW being serious about making more money from Shadow War" versus "GW will drop Shadow War and just wants to tout the terrain kits."
We've also known from the start that WH stores and LGSes would have some copies - but GW clarified that stuff? WHY?? WHY WOULD THEY TELL US WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW? Well, they are actually probably not only or even mostly talking to us so much as people who are a bit less plugged in, like Timmy's mom or even adult 40k fans who don't spend tons of time on this upstanding forum.
BrookM wrote: All I know is, if that book isn't present this Friday I'm writing their customer services a friendly mail asking for an explanation.
I think that is a good approach. Any suspicion that it might be your LGS blaming GW? I have run into this in the past.
Manchu wrote: That sounds awful BrookM - my very limited experience dealing indirectly with GW distro through a LGS was 100% satisfactory. Store manager explained that GW rep was on the ball. At that point, it was one of the few things we could say nice about GW.
There's the difference between have a GW trade account, and getting GW stuff through a distributor. Seems like that store is the latter.
This is still a colossal feth up, and the fact that I can walk into a GW store and have a decent chance of not being able to buy a game they hyped to all hell and back on the day it comes out is just shocking.
judgedoug wrote: There's the difference between have a GW trade account, and getting GW stuff through a distributor. Seems like that store is the latter.
Excellent point. Distributor feths up - somehow GW blamed? LOL
kodos wrote: but there is no reason to use 40k as tournament game except for Apo-games
Sorry but I honestly don't understand this point. Shadow War is operates on a per figure basis. There are no vehicles. There are very few infantry choices. The game is meant to be played in a campaign over several sessions. None of this adds up to any size game of 40k, a game that uses units, has vehicles, and is played on a one-off/pick-up basis.
I think you don't get my point
otherwise you just say that Shadow War is not suited to replace 40k for tournaments/organised play because it don't use vehicles or units and is meant to be played in sessions (that are usual for tournaments)?
H.B.M.C. wrote: the fact that I can walk into a GW store and have a decent chance of not being able to buy a game they hyped to all hell and back on the day it comes out is just shocking.
Yeah it absolutely sucks and needs to be fixed ASAP. In Kirby's day, we could just assume it wouldn't be - and be right. In Rountree's day, we have (a) a venue to speak to GW together, (b) a venue for them to respond, and (c) they are actually responding!
BrookM wrote: As far as I can remember, nope! Not on the poster showing off the terrain kits either.
It might be a possibility that those are a bit's sprue that comes with the set. I saw the promethium tank thing the pipes, and the walkway sets. THAT crane loo like a smaller add on.
I've been checking the sprue shots for a while now, but can't find any of the parts used in the crane on there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BOOOOOOOM! Nice big pics of the terrain sprues, for those who haven't seen them yet by the way. Who knows, maybe someone else can pore over these and discover the parts used for the crane?
I'm betting they will make the rules available on digital format for a small fee.
Spoiler:
krazynadechukr wrote: Exactly. Buy a scout box & an ork box. The rules will come out on their own (either officially or not so officially ) later, or in the next rulebook. The terrain will be sold (remember the Tau wall that was lmtd edition too?) separately in several months....
*Two Scout boxes, one regular, the other with sniper rifles.
Also the terrain was never meatn to be limited, only the boxed game with discounts. WD clearly shows that the scenery will come along this two months.
Tamwulf wrote: Rules to become available online, more factions added, and all the terrain will be available separately. Looks like GW is serious about supporting the players again!
1.- They never said so, only that they will be more widely available.
2.- I'm more interesed in more operatives. I want to play with Fire Warriors so much.
3.- They said that SINCE DAY 1, I'm still surprised that many people have seemed to be unaware of that, even when that was confirmed at AdeptiCon and WD.
Melissia wrote: Okay, that's marginally less dumb of them. Still dumb that they got in to this situation in the first place, though.
That's dumb, but not as dumb as people ignoring that the scenery would be released individually later on (yes, that bugs me too much).
NobodyXY wrote: Canadians looking for a copy should check meeplemart, they seem to have a good amount currently for pre-order.
Awesome that more gangs are in. Hoping we get a softback or hardback.
I'm confused, are you talking about Necromunda (gangs) os Shadow War (nto gangs)?
Yeah it absolutely sucks and needs to be fixed ASAP. In Kirby's day, we could just assume it wouldn't be - and be right. In Rountree's day, we have (a) a venue to speak to GW together, (b) a venue for them to respond, and (c) they are actually responding!
What I have seen now is that SW:A is balanced up to a point, fast and tactical (and it needs player skills more than luck with cards).
and because of the small model count it is not a problem to have several different teams at home or collect enough from one team to have all options availabe (compared to 40k were it is now impossible or very expensive to keep up with tournament meta)
Also the campaign rules allow mini campaigns that can be done tournament like in 2 days with a winner (compared to old Necromunda)
So what is the reason to wait and hope that 40k get the fixed in a way to become a game that can be used for tournaments again (which would either need it to scale down or become a unit level game and I see neither coming) instead of just using SW:A instead just for organised play
Yeah it absolutely sucks and needs to be fixed ASAP. In Kirby's day, we could just assume it wouldn't be - and be right. In Rountree's day, we have (a) a venue to speak to GW together, (b) a venue for them to respond, and (c) they are actually responding!
What I have seen now is that SW:A is balanced up to a point, fast and tactical (and it needs player skills more than luck with cards).
and because of the small model count it is not a problem to have several different teams at home or collect enough from one team to have all options availabe (compared to 40k were it is now impossible or very expensive to keep up with tournament meta)
Also the campaign rules allow mini campaigns that can be done tournament like in 2 days with a winner (compared to old Necromunda)
So what is the reason to wait and hope that 40k get the fixed in a way to become a game that can be used for tournaments again (which would either need it to scale down or become a unit level game and I see neither coming) instead of just using SW:A instead just for organised play
Who on Earth said it was hoping to be balanced? Let's not ruin it by talking about tournaments.
It's good for a campaign. Have fun with it, do cool stuff. It's not a tournament game.
Sabotage! wrote: My local store allocated had four people sign up for preorders before Saturday (and unfortunately they are only getting 4 copies, not the 12 they asked for), and GW online sold out before I was able to to send payment at 1005 AM. So I've been doing a bit of hunting.
This is worrisome indeed.
My local store ordered ten boxes, here's hoping he's getting at least six or so then, otherwise there may be a scrum to get it first amongst those who pre-ordered.
I hope your store is getting all of the copies they ordered, it might just be a problem with my store's distributor on the West Coast of the US. While my store is somewhat big (probably 2nd largest in the metro area, barring stores that only do MTG), it is an independent store rather than a GW, so I imagine GW stores are more likely to get the amount of copies they requested.
I fear the worst as this is also an independent stockist (competing with two other independents and an official GW store, all located within 200 meters of one another) and whoever GW assigned to this store as the contact for fulfilling its orders is a fething idiot.
"We want three copies of codex: Crimson Slaughter, but instead we got three batches of Carroburg Crimson."
An ongoing saga right now is getting the novel Kingsblade, but this idiot either keeps forgetting to add it to the order orrrrrrr in case of the first time around sent the store an Imperial Knight kit, close enough right! What the feth..?
Ugh, that sucks Brook. I'm putting out good vibes for you on getting a copy! And hopefully GW will change out the person who deals with your store!
Manchu wrote: That sounds awful BrookM - my very limited experience dealing indirectly with GW distro through a LGS was 100% satisfactory. Store manager explained that GW rep was on the ball. At that point, it was one of the few things we could say nice about GW.
There's the difference between have a GW trade account, and getting GW stuff through a distributor. Seems like that store is the latter.
I do believe that my store did change over to a distributor from a GW account, though I could be mistaken. They have tried to order certain numbers of things from GW accounts before only to be told they were getting less than they asked for (I recall them asking for three sets of Skaven dice after they ordered 25 copies of Blood Bowl and being told okay- to be called back in the middle of the week and being told they were only getting one- but at least they notified them). I think a lot of it depends on how good your individual rep is.
I will say however, the few times I have had to contact GW customer service, they have been astonishing, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are some might fine reps out there.
I do agree with Vorian quite a bit on this one. GW has a track record of producing games that aren't balanced, but are very fun none the less.
I always approach GW games with idea that I will get together with some buddies, have a few beers, and roll some dice. I think there are a lot of games out there that are much better suited to competitive play.
RexHavoc wrote: It says the exact same thing it did Saturday
Incorrect. On Saturday, the message was that they would sell a digital version. Today's message is that the rules will be available again - format undisclosed. Furthermore, there was no mention on Saturday of making more lists available.
LOL do you think the employees were just sitting around villainously twirling their moustaches? First, they have their regular work to do beyond damage control for the weekend feeding frenzy. Second, it's not just a matter of snapping one's fingers and the perfect solution - whatever that may be - magically appears. Third, after reaching a decision on how to try to solve this they still need to see if that is logistically feasible. A response within three workdays, vague though it may be, is a huge step in the right direction for a company that only shortly before barely acknowledged the existence of the humans buying their products.
Not incorrect at all. So they went from saying 'digital download' to saying in 'some format'. That's the same thing. If they no longer meant a digital download they would have said. Sure, if you over analyse and read between the lines, it MIGHT mean they are looking at a reprint. But for all intents and purposes, the are just saying the rules will be available, which is exactly the message they gave out on Saturday. I'm not interested in reading between lines from a company that is trying to sell me something, I'm going to take what they SAY at face value. Its not my job to decode an advert.
They mentioned during the live stream that, over the coming months, white dwarf would be printing stuff to tie in with this release including new rules and lists. So the new lists were not included in Saturdays message. It still doesn't make it new information, they are just repeating old news to a wider audience, a clever way to pad out what would have been otherwise an incredible short article.
The point about it being the middle the week is more this: Have you actually read today's announcement. Its dreadful. I'm not expecting someone with a masters degree in language to be working their community site, but a little proof reading never hurt anyone.
"Don’t worry though – we we have some good news for you."
"We will be making the rules for this game are more widely available, very soon."
My point is, I wasn't expecting some grand announcement telling us we were all going to be receive a reprint personally delivered to our door by Duncan, but it took them 3 working days to write that and post it up? It is almost cut and paste from their facebook replies on Saturday, and it says nothing of interest, and certainly nothing of any real substance, that we haven't already seen before. It would have taken someone 5 minutes on a monday morning to post something to say, "sorry guys, we are working on a solution, we have no clue how we are going to fix, but we will!"
But waiting till Wednesday evening is joke. I understand there is other things for them to work on, but no other business works like this. Any other business would have that rushed, cut & paste message up monday morning, and they might not have an answer anytime soon, but they wouldn't wait three working days to post what amounts to nothing more than an advertisement for the terrain coming next week.
Sure, I agree its a step in the right direction from how they were several years ago. But its still not good enough for them to escape criticism, when they screw up. Our money shouldn't just fall into their tills, they need to earn it.
Maybe step back and take a breather. They have to have actually finished the action for it to be declared a screw up. You can choose to not take it on good faith that they had no idea this would be sold short. That's your decision. You can even decide that they are intentionally trying to piss of potential customers.. that's a strange decision but it's yours to make. What you can't decide is that this matter is concluded and final judgement is ready to be rendered. Until that time, maybe consider a hobby (snicker).. There's a lot of horrible stuff going on right now for people of just about any persuasion to be bent out of shape over.. GW trying to release a game and hitting some (slightly amusing) stumbling blocks are probably the most petty things a person could choose to be upset over in this day and age.
Someone isn't allowed to criticize an obvious mistake by GW in a thread about a GW game on a gaming message board because bad things happen in the world? That is ridiculous. Since we are deciding what other people can and can't do, I declare that you aren't allowed to be so ridiculous.
lol, I didn't say anyone wasn't allowed to do anything. I simply was suggesting that the poster relax and take a breath. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that big a deal. My other point was, this is still in motion but people are making finalistic judgements on how it's been handled.. WHILE IT'S STILL BEING HANDLED.. so.. yeah.. twist my words a bit if it helps you and yours but my point was to try and cut some of that unnecessary tension. I'm not really sure what yours was.. other than to criticize me for criticizing someone for criticizing a product that isn't even out yet.. sooo.. have a nice day!
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kodos wrote: do you guys think this game can be the next big tournament game?
I mean the rules are a lot better than the current 40k, games are smaller and faster and a 2 day campaign is possible.
also no big teams which means it is easier to adept to local meta (regarding the used terrain etc) and it gives much more possibility for modelling/convert stuff
at least I don't see a reason to stick with 40k except that there are no Titans available
boom?
this pdf is available since the box get into pre-order and the new box collections were put on the HP, and it is missing the teams from the box
so you still need the box game if you want to play Orks for now
I dunno about tourney game (seems like it would quickly turn into Rock Paper Scissors) but as a league game it could be great fun.. IF (big IF) your group is open to do a ranked ladder league of any sort, that could be a way to go for prize support and buy in. For one-off matches.. I think it would just end up with whatever the most disgusting unit is being fielded by everyone.
Sabotage! wrote: I think there are a lot of games out there that are much better suited to competitive play.
there are, but the community is fixed on the idea to use GW rules only to play tournaments (otherwise Warpath FireFight would have an easy going to replace 40k in tournaments)
Vorian wrote: Necromunda was not balanced. It was (is) worth playing.
If you're only interested in tournament games then yeah, It's not for you.
compared to the mess 40k is now, Necromunda was well balanced
at least I never felt that I was playing against the game instead of playing against my opponent
and I am not searching for a specific tournament game, but being interested if there is a chance that 40k get replaced by something better (to make events being fun again)
I dunno about tourney game (seems like it would quickly turn into Rock Paper Scissors) but as a league game it could be great fun.. IF (big IF) your group is open to do a ranked ladder league of any sort, that could be a way to go for prize support and buy in. For one-off matches.. I think it would just end up with whatever the most disgusting unit is being fielded by everyone.
one-off matches are out of question anyway
but a ranked ladder league sounds very good
Sabotage! wrote: I think there are a lot of games out there that are much better suited to competitive play.
there are, but the community is fixed on the idea to use GW rules only to play tournaments (otherwise Warpath FireFight would have an easy going to replace 40k in tournaments)
Vorian wrote: Necromunda was not balanced. It was (is) worth playing.
If you're only interested in tournament games then yeah, It's not for you.
compared to the mess 40k is now, Necromunda was well balanced
at least I never felt that I was playing against the game instead of playing against my opponent
Ouch, I'm sorry to hear your community is like that. I don't really play in tournaments (just a few casual leagues), but it seems there are a lot of other more competitive games around here that have pretty big followings and regularly host tournaments.
And your point is well taken about Necromunda being balanced compared to what 40k is now. I honestly can't even finish a game of 40k it is such a mess.
Game like this one is one for a ladder campaign, or to help a new player build on, learnt o play a game and feed them the candy, so they go get themselves a add on unit, a vehicle, and extablish their characters, and personalize their experience as they make their own way in the 40K world.
I have not seen mentioned, yet would be to model up the Armageddon IG regiment teams for the -
Maybe step back and take a breather. They have to have actually finished the action for it to be declared a screw up. You can choose to not take it on good faith that they had no idea this would be sold short. That's your decision. You can even decide that they are intentionally trying to piss of potential customers.. that's a strange decision but it's yours to make. What you can't decide is that this matter is concluded and final judgement is ready to be rendered. Until that time, maybe consider a hobby (snicker).. There's a lot of horrible stuff going on right now for people of just about any persuasion to be bent out of shape over.. GW trying to release a game and hitting some (slightly amusing) stumbling blocks are probably the most petty things a person could choose to be upset over in this day and age.
I think I'm grand, thank you lol
As far as I'm concerned they have finished their action- they offered a brand new game, hyped it up, told us all it was going to be great, and said we could preorder it. I log in on saturday morning, and by the time I've logged in, added one to the cart and got to the pay screen it had sold out in my territory. We are talking about a couple of minutes- I'd be less annoyed if it had sold out by the evening, or the next day, or hell, even by lunchtime. There was no talk about it being a one time game during all the promotion or live streams. Infact it was billed as a good started for 40k.
I'm sure they didn't do it on purpose, but they could have handled the issue a lot, lot better or have been up front about the limited number in the first place.
The matter is concluded. The posted a response to me on facebook on saturday that they would release digital rules- I have no use for a digital rule set, and do not like digital rules, so with no reprint of the box set, I have no real use or reason for the buying the rest of the game in small bits, for a much higher cost. Sure, they might pull something out of the hat at a later date, but for now, with the posts we have gotten from them, it really doesn't sound like they will able to provide me with either the item they offered, for a price that I will want to pay. My choice maybe, but there are others that will feel forced in to buying what every they do put out to be able to keep up with their group/friends/store. I wanted to use the game as an excuse to actually play in store/with real people, but then, I can continue to play GW older skirmish rule sets, at home, and for free. Even though this is done for me, I'm still allowed to be miffed that I cant get the game I wanted to get.
This hobby is my hobby (duh! ) and I think its more than reasonable to be able to have a moan when GW cant deliver on what they were trying to sell me, especially as I was hooked on the idea of finally being able to have a skirmished 40k game, supported by stores.
There is always horrible stuff going in the world. But that has nothing to do with coming to a games forum and talking about a game. Its a ridiculous comparison. If we were only meant to be worrying and talking about the 'horrible stuff' then no one, including yourself, should be posting in this thread.
Maybe step back and take a breather. They have to have actually finished the action for it to be declared a screw up. You can choose to not take it on good faith that they had no idea this would be sold short. That's your decision. You can even decide that they are intentionally trying to piss of potential customers.. that's a strange decision but it's yours to make. What you can't decide is that this matter is concluded and final judgement is ready to be rendered. Until that time, maybe consider a hobby (snicker).. There's a lot of horrible stuff going on right now for people of just about any persuasion to be bent out of shape over.. GW trying to release a game and hitting some (slightly amusing) stumbling blocks are probably the most petty things a person could choose to be upset over in this day and age.
I think I'm grand, thank you lol
As far as I'm concerned they have finished their action- they offered a brand new game, hyped it up, told us all it was going to be great, and said we could preorder it. I log in on saturday morning, and by the time I've logged in, added one to the cart and got to the pay screen it had sold out in my territory. We are talking about a couple of minutes- I'd be less annoyed if it had sold out by the evening, or the next day, or hell, even by lunchtime. There was no talk about it being a one time game during all the promotion or live streams. Infact it was billed as a good started for 40k.
I'm sure they didn't do it on purpose, but they could have handled the issue a lot, lot better or have been up front about the limited number in the first place.
The matter is concluded. The posted a response to me on facebook on saturday that they would release digital rules- I have no use for a digital rule set, and do not like digital rules, so with no reprint of the box set, I have no real use or reason for the buying the rest of the game in small bits, for a much higher cost. Sure, they might pull something out of the hat at a later date, but for now, with the posts we have gotten from them, it really doesn't sound like they will able to provide me with either the item they offered, for a price that I will want to pay. My choice maybe, but there are others that will feel forced in to buying what every they do put out to be able to keep up with their group/friends/store. I wanted to use the game as an excuse to actually play in store/with real people, but then, I can continue to play GW older skirmish rule sets, at home, and for free. Even though this is done for me, I'm still allowed to be miffed that I cant get the game I wanted to get.
This hobby is my hobby (duh! ) and I think its more than reasonable to be able to have a moan when GW cant deliver on what they were trying to sell me, especially as I was hooked on the idea of finally being able to have a skirmished 40k game, supported by stores.
There is always horrible stuff going in the world. But that has nothing to do with coming to a games forum and talking about a game. Its a ridiculous comparison. If we were only meant to be worrying and talking about the 'horrible stuff' then no one, including yourself, should be posting in this thread.
See, I don't think it's done. GW expressed directly to me through a CS rep (I posted the message) that they ARE listening to our feedback.. and these concerns are being passed to the appropriate people. You can and probably should do what I did and contact them directly and express your concerns. I share your opinion of e-books.. especially for gaming... and I told them as much. I am choosing to take their stance at face value and believe that if enough people let them know they would prefer to see a hard copy of the rules.. that we would get just that!
It sounds more like they mollified you with a friendly, but otherwise meaningless response.
"Your feedback is appreciated" is the oldest line in the book, if you choose to believe that they are taking your criticisms on board and that your voice actually has any power to influence the decisions GW makes, then more power too you, but I think you're being unrealistically optimistic about the outcome of this.
Best case scenario here is that we get a printed rulebook, although I don't expect it. I don't see them reprinting the entire core box, which is a shame because I really like the look of those red templates. I wouldn't hold my breath for rules expansions beyond a couple of issues of White Dwarf either.
Realistically all I'm expecting to see is an expensive, badly formatted and unprintable ebook.
Zethnar wrote: It sounds more like they mollified you with a friendly, but otherwise meaningless response.
"Your feedback is appreciated" is the oldest line in the book, if you choose to believe that they are taking your criticisms on board and that your voice actually has any power to influence the decisions GW makes, then more power too you, but I think you're being unrealistically optimistic about the outcome of this.
Best case scenario here is that we get a printed rulebook, although I don't expect it. I don't see them reprinting the entire core box, which is a shame because I really like the look of those red templates. I wouldn't hold my breath for rules expansions beyond a couple of issues of White Dwarf either.
Realistically all I'm expecting to see is an expensive, badly formatted and unprintable ebook.
I'm not sure if this is condescending or intended as some sort of passive aggressive insult based on willingness to believe that a company can change.. either way, if it is an ebook that just means I'll have to print it. If you lack the ability to print screen and recompile as a clean PDF, then I feel badly for you. I do agree that whichever avenue they go, it will likely be overpriced.
Here's a suggestion for Dakkites in general.. let's stop being so hostile and contrarian and pedantic.. please? We're a community. No we don't have to constantly be giving e-hugs and all of that.. but why don't we try being positive for once? Maybe not about GW.. but just in how we interact with one another. There's so much snark and "aha gotcha" BS going on in just about every thread here that it really gets old to look in anything associated with any of the larger companies. Just a suggestion... pretty sure it will immediately be criticized as telling people they're not allowed to do "x" "y" or "z" but whatever.. I gotta try.
If you lack the ability to print screen and recompile as a clean PDF, then I feel badly for you. I do agree that whichever avenue they go, it will likely be overpriced.
.
I've got to say some of GW's recent ebooks (the last Kill Team/ Horus Heresy ones for example) are very rough to do this with even as any reader I've tried to open them up with will either not let you focus in far enough to get anything beyond small text (think like 66% in Adobe), or cuts single pages to multiple pages (sometimes even bisecting sentences). I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's far more work than should be necessary to read a file you paid for in comfort.
That said, I do agree with your post in general, I think people are being way too hostile towards one another over a miniatures game and differing opinions on it/the company that made it/ playing miniatures games/etc.
I haven't encountered any problems reading any of the more recent books in ePub format on my PC or my phone. Older PDF Sandy pumps for garbage but none of the new ones have been all that bad.
Huh, I've had the problem since they switched to epub3? (I think that's the file format) with all of my devices. All the guys I've played with had the same issues with the exception of the guys with Apple devices and a couple of the guys with their phones. I honestly didn't have any trouble before they switch formats. And all the files I have were bought from Black Library, so are legit copies.
Ehhhhh ... telling folks to print out ebooks is not really a customer-friendly response to demand for hard copies. I dont wany ebooks and I simply don't play rule sets only available in digital format. This strong bias against digital products doesn't make sense to everyone of course - nonetheless, it is a market reality. GW bumped up against it in a big way in response to their original statement addressing the website stock blowout, when they announced that they would make the rules available digitally - the decision to delete that message and replace it today with one that doesn't specify format is very telling.
And is it really any surprise that people who enjoy a hobby as tactile as miniatures gaming want physical rulebooks rather thans PDFs or epub or whatever???
MLaw wrote: I don't know if anyone else has written to GW but I did.. and here's the response I got.
Just out of curiosity, where did you send the email to? I would be willing to take the time to send them an email about my thoughts on the release of the new game, and hopes for a new Necromunda.
Oddly enough, the contact us link on the GW-store. It's at the bottom. The responded crazy fast too.
Thanks, just wanted to know if there was a specific place to contact. I will send them my own 2 cents too.
GodDamUser wrote: So its GW's fault that they want to move forward with the times and technological advancement, but you don't?
Yes...?
If I try to sell a product that my customers don't want, or fail to sell one that they do, that's not my customers' fault. It's mine for not understanding my customers.
MLaw wrote: I'm not sure if this is condescending or intended as some sort of passive aggressive insult based on willingness to believe that a company can change.. either way, if it is an ebook that just means I'll have to print it. If you lack the ability to print screen and recompile as a clean PDF, then I feel badly for you. I do agree that whichever avenue they go, it will likely be overpriced.
I didn't intend it to be insulting or condescending, you're welcome to be optimistic about GW's recent attitude shift. Personally, I don't think receiving vague, placating answers is any reason to be optimistic about change, the proof will be in whatever they deliver.
As for screenshotting an ebook, you might be happy spending $30 on a digital product you have to work on to even get an ugly print version of, but I am not. Especially not when I can go to drive-thru-rpg and purchase a plethora of wargaming or RPG pdf's for half the price that both look good on screen and are printer friendly. Unfortunately this part IS going to be a little condescending because to even suggest that screenshotting and piecing together a rule book just so you can get a paper version of it is an acceptable solution means you're probably roughly as out of touch with reality as GW is, which explains why you think that vague answers and marketing speak is solid proof that they've really turned around as a company.
GodDamUser wrote: So its GW's fault that they want to move forward with the times and technological advancement, but you don't?
Yes...?
If I try to sell a product that my customers don't want, or fail to sell one that they do, that's not my customers' fault. It's mine for not understanding my customers.
but just because you want it, doesn't mean all customers do.
They are moving forward with the newer technology that is regularly available, which also saves them costs.
The I don't want to move onto digital argument is comparable to someone complaining that the latest games wont run on their outdated console
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really suspect they are going to reprint the book separately as a $50 USD product.
Throw in all the existing lists and some new ones, new cover art, and charge 25 USD. They would have a General's Handbook level of success and move a ton of plastic infantry.
GodDamUser wrote: So its GW's fault that they want to move forward with the times and technological advancement, but you don't?
Yes...?
If I try to sell a product that my customers don't want, or fail to sell one that they do, that's not my customers' fault. It's mine for not understanding my customers.
but just because you want it, doesn't mean all customers do.
They are moving forward with the newer technology that is regularly available, which also saves them costs.
The I don't want to move onto digital argument is comparable to someone complaining that the latest games wont run on their outdated console
That's... Not even close to the same argument, actually. Books and ebooks are completely different things with different experiences. For example, some people have issues with staring at screens all the time, and some just prefer having an actual, tactile experience. Digital copies also need some form of battery, which can be annoying to deal with at times, like spending the day at the game shop.
Personally I don't care, paperback or digital is fine to me so long as they put out the rules quickly, but to compare a hard copy book to a PDF or similar is more akin to comparing tabletop games to video games, rather than an older and a newer console.
GodDamUser wrote: but just because you want it, doesn't mean all customers do
You posted this without realizing it applies exactly as much to your point ...
There actually isn't an inevitable march away from print, as forecasted a decade ago. Print has been outpacing digital in popular formats. Again, it is no surprise that a isgnificant number of miniatures gamers prefer hard copy rulebooks. The Shadow War rulebook is currently going for 100 USD on ebay by the way, despite a digital version being all but certain.
Demand exists. Not hypothetically. Not abstractly. And GW has pretty clearly taken note. I don't know if they can deliver profitably (that is, within the time frame in which this demand is most likely to remain strong) - we'll have to see.
but just because you want it, doesn't mean all customers do.
And that's the line that companies need to find when deciding what to sell and how to sell it.
Regardless of how many customers do or do not sell something, the responsibility for the decision whether or not to sell it lies with the company, not with the customers.
They are moving forward with the newer technology that is regularly available, which also saves them costs.
That doesn't make it better. Or what their customers want.
The I don't want to move onto digital argument is comparable to someone complaining that the latest games wont run on their outdated console
It really, really isn't.
There are any number of reasons for not wanting to move to digital that have nothing to do with simply not wanting to update to the newest technology. The main one being that while digital formats are fine for casual reading, they're really rubbish for actual gaming, where you often want to be able to just pick up the book and flick to the relevant page, something that is slow and painful on many digital devices.
It's also, as Manchu mentioned, not as tactile, which is important to some of us. After all, we can move to the 'new' technology and use our digital devices to simulate dice rolls as well... but most of us prefer to grab a handful of actual dice and throw them around.
For that matter, miniature wargaming itself is ultimately the 'old' technology. By your logic, we should all have traded in our miniatures for Dawn Of War.
'New' doesn't automatically mean 'better' ... or 'what gamers actually want'.
insaniak wrote: So it's only the customers' 'fault' if they want something different to what you want...?
Well see the thing is people are still gonna buy it anyway. They are still gonna make money
Some people prefer digital over paper, I'm good either way.
But the main thing is that Digital is a lot cheaper to produce
And GW being a company is out to make money, So this is a great cost saving measure, if they only produce from digital from now on then your options is to buy it or move on to other things. But people are constantly leaving or just starting with this kind of game market, So a few people leaving the game because they like paper will not make a great difference to them when new people start with the system and are perfectly fine with digital.
Plus with the cost saved going digital, losing a few customers will not hurt them in the slightest.
TL : DR GW like any other company doesn't care what you think or like, and will do what will make them the most money
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really suspect they are going to reprint the book separately as a $50 USD product.
Throw in all the existing lists and some new ones, new cover art, and charge 25 USD. They would have a General's Handbook level of success and move a ton of plastic infantry.
I don't know how realistic that is, but then again, I haven't really seen how thick the book is. If It is about the thickness of Angels of Death, I would totally see what you are describing as a possibility. Perhaps have all the tokens and stuff shrink-wrapped with the book inside a slip cover with new art, but keep the book the same to save on costs.
insaniak wrote: Sure. And so the 'fault' for whether or not they sell what people want lies entirely with them.
So what exactly were you arguing?
partly projecting tbh..
Just annoyed at people's sense of entitlement, that because they don't like a format, it shouldn't be that way. In this case it is their game and they can package it how they like
Also been a part of an argument for the past hour with an annoying bird who thinks they should shut down all abattoirs, because she is a Vegan and thinks meat is cruel... And apparently her and her friends feelings are more important then the economy when that argument as to why it cannot just be shut down was presented
Manchu wrote: Ehhhhh ... telling folks to print out ebooks is not really a customer-friendly response to demand for hard copies. I dont wany ebooks and I simply don't play rule sets only available in digital format.
Same, although I do *expect* a "FREE" PDF of any ruleset I purchase. For me, larger print sizes and 600+ dpi beats the heck out of what any phone or tablet can do.
Just annoyed at people's sense of entitlement, that because they don't like a format, it shouldn't be that way. In this case it is their game and they can package it how they like
I think you've misunderstood. Nobody has a problem with GW releasing rules in digital format... just with the idea of them only releasing rules in digital format.
If someone has no interest in purchasing digital rules, wanting a different format isn't 'entitlement'... it's simply personal preference.
If someone has no interest in purchasing digital rules, wanting a different format isn't 'entitlement'... it's simply personal preference.
But getting overly annoyed at if they decided to go digital only is 'entitlement' as you feel entitled that because you want a certain format, the company should do it that way.
If someone has no interest in purchasing digital rules, wanting a different format isn't 'entitlement'... it's simply personal preference.
But getting overly annoyed at if they decided to go digital only is 'entitlement' as you feel entitled that because you want a certain format, the company should do it that way.
I wouldn't call saying, "Hey, I'd pay for a paperback book but have no interest in a ebook format" entitlement so much as useful feedback on the companies part. If a large part of your customer base wants a physical version, and you don't offer it, that is kind of a mistake on the part of the company.
I wouldn't call saying, "Hey, I'd pay for a paperback book but have no interest in a ebook format" entitlement so much as useful feedback on the companies part. If a large part of your customer base wants a physical version, and you don't offer it, that is kind of a mistake on the part of the company.
But at the same time, If that's the only way for the customer to get the rules, they are still likely to get it....
Or the number of people that don't buy it because of the format causes less of a profit loss than the cost saving of going digital only. then the Company still wins out.
It is also hard to really judge what the majority really want, because the vocal few =/= majority
And while people will walk away because they are totally against digital, there will be people that join in because of the greater digital presence, which will offset everything.. and generally a newer player will bring in more money than an existing one
But at the same time, If that's the only way for the customer to get the rules, they are still likely to get it....
That's going to come down to the individual, obviously. I don't buy digital rules, so wouldn't even if it was the only option.
I also stopped buying new codexes when GW switched to hideously-expensive hardcover. I went from buying every single book GW release (dating back to 2nd edition) to buying a handful of codexes as I can find them 2nd hand at a price comparable to 5th edition's codex releases.
Restricting formats is a deal-breaker for some of us.
insaniak wrote: Restricting formats is a deal-breaker for some of us.
Yes but while it may be a deal breaker for some, the likely cost savings from moving away for physical prints, would more than likely be a greater cost saver for the Company as a whole, and would be a smart move for them.
Myself I like the hardcovers I think they are nice, But I don't go out and buy everyone.. Just the one for my main force at the time. And while I own the hard cover, I also have scanned the relevant rules information into a pdf I keep on my phone, for ease of use
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really suspect they are going to reprint the book separately as a $50 USD product.
Throw in all the existing lists and some new ones, new cover art, and charge 25 USD. They would have a General's Handbook level of success and move a ton of plastic infantry.
Yep, I hope they consider this..I very much prefer this ruleset compared to 40k.
Also, yet another surprise GW releases a boxed game and underestimates how many people would buy it...wow.
insaniak wrote: I think you've misunderstood. Nobody has a problem with GW releasing rules in digital format... just with the idea of them only releasing rules in digital format.
That's one of the main reasons I wanted to buy this actual box - the physical rules. I want an easy to access rulebook. The fact that most of the forces you can play are PDF only annoys me. Printing them is no option because it would waste so much ink.
For that matter, miniature wargaming itself is ultimately the 'old' technology. By your logic, we should all have traded in our miniatures for Dawn Of War.
We totally should! Space marines mounting World of Warcraft Wolfs. Whats not to love?
(Now being serious, this simulator its ultra cool)
For that matter, miniature wargaming itself is ultimately the 'old' technology. By your logic, we should all have traded in our miniatures for Dawn Of War.
Well Games Workshop still prides itself on being a miniatures company. So they will stay
For something touted as the tech of the future, its ironic that for me, the future is precisely why I want a physical book.
I have the original necromunda boxed game, with the books that came in it. I also have the Underhive book that was the update/compendium rulebook thing that they put out before giving up on the game.
They are 20 and 25 years old, I can read them any time, no formatting issues, no problem seeing the images and reading the text.
Hands up if you think in 25 years you will easily be able to access you epub files? The last few I have from GW don't display well today, let alone in a quarter of a century when the file format is beyond obsolete and you are resorting to some emulator for decades old tech to view it on whatever kind of gadget we ave then. (Remember, tablets have only existed for less than a decade so far).
I think the notion that it is a tournament game comes from the fact that stores can opt to receive a competitive pack to go with their shipment of boxed games, which allows them to run a tournament of sorts.
The new supports look like about 4" and the old necromunda bulk heads were 3"
That worries me about matching up walkways..
The white dwarf battle report mentioned a figure fell 5" from one platform to the one below it. So, definitely not going to match up your walkways with the Necromunda bulkheads.
H.B.M.C. wrote: This is still a colossal feth up, and the fact that I can walk into a GW store and have a decent chance of not being able to buy a game they hyped to all hell and back on the day it comes out is just shocking.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Please people, grow some perspective.
H.B.M.C. wrote: This is still a colossal feth up, and the fact that I can walk into a GW store and have a decent chance of not being able to buy a game they hyped to all hell and back on the day it comes out is just shocking.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Please people, grow some perspective.
Silentz wrote: The irony is strong with this one, as usual.
Everything I said is factual. If you have something to dispute it by all means go ahead. Also, lean the meaning of irony.
CATACHANTV wrote: I have the game, i'm building scenery and surprise plateform no need glue, we can unbuild easyli the scenery.
Thanks for the pic. Nice to see how it works. Kinda worried that it'll break eventually, but it's a fantastic method for dry-fitting combos and finding what you like (unlike CoD buildings, where I have pages of hand-dram diagrams and Excel-spreadsheets counting tile usage and other nonsense).
CATACHANTV wrote: I have the game, i'm building scenery and surprise plateform no need glue, we can unbuild easyli the scenery.
Thanks for the pic. Nice to see how it works. Kinda worried that it'll break eventually, but it's a fantastic method for dry-fitting combos and finding what you like (unlike CoD buildings, where I have pages of hand-dram diagrams and Excel-spreadsheets counting tile usage and other nonsense).
The White Dwarf article does implore people to glue the pieces into place once you're satisfied with the configuration, as the parts will wear down and break over time.
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are really wondering if this game should be a tournament game?
It's a campaign game, not a tournament game.
Why not?
Blood Bowl has progression style tournaments, it wouldnt be too hard to come up with a framework for tourney play.
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
Of course you could slap together a tournament, it's just not particularly suited to it. It's suited to a fun campaign game where you'll do things like chuck two gangs that have been mauled to hell at the leading Gang in an ambush because one of them insulted another's mother in the drinking hole
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
and your argument is?
that it is impossible in Shadow War because it was in Necromunda?
Or that it is impossible to just cut the not suited scenarios and create an controlled environment because the rules force you to do the opposite
so also playing a campaign is not fun, because of not balanced teams and lopsided games some people will always win, and others will always lose (you know not all people have fun with games were it is clear that they lost before it starts)
And Blood Bowl Teams are not balanced either and you take different teams for pick up games, LGS leagues and tournaments.
your argument is not against tournaments but against every event/campaign/league
so why should someone start with the game?
to just but stuff on the table, roll dice and put it away because trying to win the game is pointless, you can also just play 500points 40k
Vorian wrote: it's just not particularly suited to it. It's suited to a fun campaign game where you'll do things like chuck two gangs that have been mauled to hell at the leading Gang in an ambush because one of them insulted another's mother in the drinking hole
and 40k is meant to be played as an evening filling game with no one tries to win but just put nice looking models on the table, roll dice and drink beer
and there are still tournaments
That was essentially Games Workshops mission statement for the past 10 years and it saw their share price plummet. They failed to understand, as you do, that for a lot of people the models are just an accessory for the rules.
Very recently, they've started realising that the "Games" in Games Workshop actually has a meaning for some people. They've started listening to their user base and producing more friendly games which are easier to get into and are easier to play. I accept that anecotal evidence is just that and it's impossible for us to say how many buy the models for the game and how many buy the games for the models but, since they started putting out better rulesets their stock price has soared. That itself carries some weight as far as evidence goes.
That was essentially Games Workshops mission statement for the past 10 years and it saw their share price plummet. They failed to understand, as you do, that for a lot of people the models are just an accessory for the rules.
Very recently, they've started realising that the "Games" in Games Workshop actually has a meaning for some people. They've started listening to their user base and producing more friendly games which are easier to get into and are easier to play. I accept that anecotal evidence is just that and it's impossible for us to say how many buy the models for the game and how many buy the games for the models but, since they started putting out better rulesets their stock price has soared. That itself carries some weight as far as evidence goes.
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
That was essentially Games Workshops mission statement for the past 10 years and it saw their share price plummet. They failed to understand, as you do, that for a lot of people the models are just an accessory for the rules.
Very recently, they've started realising that the "Games" in Games Workshop actually has a meaning for some people. They've started listening to their user base and producing more friendly games which are easier to get into and are easier to play. I accept that anecotal evidence is just that and it's impossible for us to say how many buy the models for the game and how many buy the games for the models but, since they started putting out better rulesets their stock price has soared. That itself carries some weight as far as evidence goes.
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
When I see how many people are just playing with grey plastics I think GW needs both, the gamer and the collector, to stay healthy.
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
Out of curiosity what was that?
Smaug I think it was, although it was obviously not done by the most units sold, the most profitable, would have been a better description I think.
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
and your argument is?
that it is impossible in Shadow War because it was in Necromunda?
Or that it is impossible to just cut the not suited scenarios and create an controlled environment because the rules force you to do the opposite
so also playing a campaign is not fun, because of not balanced teams and lopsided games some people will always win, and others will always lose (you know not all people have fun with games were it is clear that they lost before it starts)
And Blood Bowl Teams are not balanced either and you take different teams for pick up games, LGS leagues and tournaments.
your argument is not against tournaments but against every event/campaign/league
so why should someone start with the game?
to just but stuff on the table, roll dice and put it away because trying to win the game is pointless, you can also just play 500points 40k
Vorian wrote: it's just not particularly suited to it. It's suited to a fun campaign game where you'll do things like chuck two gangs that have been mauled to hell at the leading Gang in an ambush because one of them insulted another's mother in the drinking hole
and 40k is meant to be played as an evening filling game with no one tries to win but just put nice looking models on the table, roll dice and drink beer
and there are still tournaments
The question was, is Shadow Wars more suitable for a tournament game than 40k.
The answer was regarding Shadow Wars as it is, in the box.
Can you modify it to be a tournament game? Of course. The mechanics are just 2nd edition 40k. You could just play gang fight for each fight and accept that the teams aren't going to be anywhere near balanced.
You could stop advances and injuries and other things that will affect relative strength of players forces between the rounds.
If you want to think that this description means that it is a more tournament friendly game that current 40k then, ok, but I'll be over there will the majority of people playing this as the campaign game it actually is.
People who ordered from Wayland Games have just received this email:
Spoiler:
Firstly I wanted to thank you for ordering Shadow War Armageddon with us at Wayland Games, order reference ********* .
As you know there is lots of hype and speculation floating around about the lack of stock for the release of "Shadow War: Armageddon". When we heard this was being released we were as excited as our customers and placed a large order for stock with Games Workshop, the manufacturer.
We were notified that the release would be "Capped" in the launch week, which is usual for GW's new releases. What this means is that retailers will be sent a number the week of release, with the rest to follow over the following weeks.
We had anticipated that this would be the case, which is why we listed it on the site with following statement "Due to a severely restricted stock allocation across all UK retailers, our ability to supply this product is limited. Orders for this item may take a little longer to be dispatched as we wait for the stock to arrive from Games Workshop."
Since this item was released we have been trying to get confirmation on the amount of stock we will get on the day of release and when we can expect the rest of the stock we require to fulfil all orders.
Nothing we were given by Games Workshop leading up to the pre-order indicated that this product was either a "limited" or a "splash release", only that initial stock would be capped (as all new releases are). We are also asked to place an order with GW before we are given any information about any limits or caps. We are very disappointed with the current situation and have been seeking a clear and definitive answer from Game Workshop. This morning we received a message from Games Workshop confirming they would be unable to honour our stock request, stating that "No more box sets will be produced".
Because of this, we will unfortunately have to cancel this item from your order. We don't want to hold onto your money because the manufacturer can't supply what you ordered so you can either have store credit or have an immediate full refund.
We can offer you store credit with an additional £5 as a gesture of good will, or if you prefer we can provide a full refund back to your original payment method, just email us and we will arrange for an immediate refund or store credit.
Once again please let me say how sorry we are for the inconvenience and how disappointed we are that the manufacturer has not been able to confirm that they can supply the stock we requested on your behalf.
If you have any questions, please email us and we will get back to you as soon as we can.
Why must everything be a tournament game? Just have fun with friends as it's designed to be used. Necromunda campaigns are the best - this will also be super fun.
I feel sorry for Wayland in this instance, given that GW have given them next to no info about the amount of copies than can expect to get or be able to order. All the orders they took have to be predicated on being able to get stock in a timely fashion; now they have to do an about-turn and try to smooth over fractious customer relations for something that is completely outside their sphere of control.
Yep, wayland are being properly screwed by GW there.
Also, we now know there won't be more of the boxed game, so that is it.
This, a game restricted in supply and sold out in 10 minutes, is the game they pitched at a trade show. That is about as bad a choice as i have seen, and suggests production, or upper management, simply did not inform either marketing, sales or distribution that this was in any way a limited release, which is frankly astonishing in any professionally ran business.
Vorian wrote: The question was, is Shadow Wars more suitable for a tournament game than 40k.
The answer was regarding Shadow Wars as it is, in the box.
Can you modify it to be a tournament game? Of course. The mechanics are just 2nd edition 40k. You could just play gang fight for each fight and accept that the teams aren't going to be anywhere near balanced.
You could stop advances and injuries and other things that will affect relative strength of players forces between the rounds.
If you want to think that this description means that it is a more tournament friendly game that current 40k then, ok, but I'll be over there will the majority of people playing this as the campaign game it actually is.
and I can't still see how those things can work for a campaign but not for a tournament
or do you/the majority of people play the campaigns without a goal/target/overall winner in the end?
how to you know how the campaign ended or what was the result of the campaign?
if you say there are some scenarios that would determine the winner before the game is played, it need to be removed for a campaign too
if the balance issues are that big that some teams will always win against others, this is a big problem for campaigns too
if game mechanics affect the relative strength between the rounds that much, it is an issue for a campaign too.
so the overall winner for a campaign is determined by choosing the team, how often he wins depends on the scenario, and the team that suffers the first injuries is doomed?
if the answers is no, I see no problem why you cannot play a tournament using the rules out of the box the same way you play a campaign (but just instead playing 2 games a week over 2 months you play do it in 2 days)
Also, we now know there won't be more of the boxed game, so that is it.
This, a game restricted in supply and sold out in 10 minutes, is the game they pitched at a trade show. That is about as bad a choice as i have seen, and suggests production, or upper management, simply did not inform either marketing, sales or distribution that this was in any way a limited release, which is frankly astonishing in any professionally ran business.
Makes me worry about my order with Darksphere....
Reckon Imma give them a ring, make sure all is good. If not, I'll have to head to my local GW Saturday.
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
Out of curiosity what was that?
Smaug I think it was, although it was obviously not done by the most units sold, the most profitable, would have been a better description I think.
Smaug had rules, it's just that he is a bit limiting given he's typically your entire army unless you're playing a decently large game.
notprop wrote: An SWA/Necromunda tournament. Allow 3hour+ rounds as every cover save is disputed to the Nth degree.
I like this ruleset but it would be horrendous in a comparative and dare I say prize environment.
Why?
It might surprise you but back in the 90's we played tournaments in 2nd edition with cover modifiers, armour penetration rolls using d8,d10,d12 and d20 dice, arcs of fire, overwatch etc etc etc and we actually coped without disputing every roll
Vorian wrote: The question was, is Shadow Wars more suitable for a tournament game than 40k.
The answer was regarding Shadow Wars as it is, in the box.
Can you modify it to be a tournament game? Of course. The mechanics are just 2nd edition 40k. You could just play gang fight for each fight and accept that the teams aren't going to be anywhere near balanced.
You could stop advances and injuries and other things that will affect relative strength of players forces between the rounds.
If you want to think that this description means that it is a more tournament friendly game that current 40k then, ok, but I'll be over there will the majority of people playing this as the campaign game it actually is.
and I can't still see how those things can work for a campaign but not for a tournament
or do you/the majority of people play the campaigns without a goal/target/overall winner in the end?
how to you know how the campaign ended or what was the result of the campaign?
if you say there are some scenarios that would determine the winner before the game is played, it need to be removed for a campaign too
if the balance issues are that big that some teams will always win against others, this is a big problem for campaigns too
if game mechanics affect the relative strength between the rounds that much, it is an issue for a campaign too.
so the overall winner for a campaign is determined by choosing the team, how often he wins depends on the scenario, and the team that suffers the first injuries is doomed?
if the answers is no, I see no problem why you cannot play a tournament using the rules out of the box the same way you play a campaign (but just instead playing 2 games a week over 2 months you play do it in 2 days)
A campaign doesn't need to be balanced. You can have the little underdog taking on the run away winner. In Necromunda you could easily end up with gangs double the gang rating of each other.
There are mechanisms to try and help - such as the hired guns, or operatives in this (or the guy running the campaign could intervene). The shorter campaign and less potential for advancement should limit it in SW... but the under lying potential for the relative strengths to become askew is still there.
Playing it out of the box has these gangs develop and one game affects the next, which affects the next, etc. The campaign is not fair all the way through, there are big slices of luck
If you're after a tournament of a series of equal games between a group of players to determine who has played the best then, as I said, you're pretty much going to want to just take the 2nd ed rules, the gangs and then play a series of gang fight scenarios against each other.
Since you can modify 40k into a tournament game too, I'm not sure how SW would be better for tournaments than 40k
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are really wondering if this game should be a tournament game?
It's a campaign game, not a tournament game.
Why not?
Blood Bowl has progression style tournaments, it wouldnt be too hard to come up with a framework for tourney play.
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
Name a miniatures wargame where the armies are all balanced, you cant, it doesnt exist.
What is a 'balanced scenario'? Scenarios will always favour some armies over others, faster armies, larger armies, elite armies, someone will have an advantage the key is to balance the scenarios across the whole tourney (same as terrain, some tables dense, some sparse, many in between, balance is key)
SWA actually has a more tourney progression system than BB. In a progression BB tourney a team can easily be matched with a bunny in round 1 and score 6 TD's and skill up alot more than other teams, SWA progression is more controlled which makes it easier to keep teams at a similar level of progression
Wayland Games wrote: This morning we received a message from Games Workshop confirming they would be unable to honour our stock request, stating that "No more box sets will be produced".
Well, for those old enough (in the UK), it makes me feel like this months White Dwarf is the equivalent of Jim Bowen saying "Look at what you could have won"
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are really wondering if this game should be a tournament game?
It's a campaign game, not a tournament game.
Why not?
Blood Bowl has progression style tournaments, it wouldnt be too hard to come up with a framework for tourney play.
v
Blood bowl is a pretty controlled environment. You have 1 scenario (the game), you have mechanisms to help lower ranked teams
Necromunda (and shadow wars) will have lopsided games, the scenarios aren't balanced, the gangs aren't balanced. In Necromunda the progression rates will be vastly different.
Name a miniatures wargame where the armies are all balanced, you cant, it doesnt exist. .
Huh? That's complete opinion with no way to prove it by facts.
Now, thoughts on why Shadow War isn't especially suited to Tournament play.
Well, we have to look at the great unspoken downside to Necromunda - far too much of Gang Progression was down to sheer, blind luck.
Yes, I could play well to ensure that my Juves levelled up in double quick time (I usually bought a couple of Hand Flamers for just that). Yes I knew how to use my Vents and Tunnels to best effect.
But that didn't help if you kept rolling up nasty injuries for your guys. Ever had a Heavy lose both eyes and be forcibly retired? I have. Ever lost half your Gang following a single game because of duff injury rolls? I've seen it happen.
Ever seen one gang get a good start, and become all but untouchable? Pretty sure anyone who's played a Necromunda campaign has seen just that - and again that's really not down to player skill - just good luck on the advance table giving good skills out, and injury rolls either meaning no harm done, or beneficial stuff (like extra XP)
Now that never stopped me partaking - but it does make it somewhat unsuited to Tournament play.
Wayland Games wrote: This morning we received a message from Games Workshop confirming they would be unable to honour our stock request, stating that "No more box sets will be produced".
Well, for those old enough (in the UK), it makes me feel like this months White Dwarf is the equivalent of Jim Bowen saying "Look at what you could have won"
That's a shame. My preferred GW discounter is Element Games, and they put it up straight away at 10:00 as not available, so seeing that I went to the GW site for mine while they still had some. One more reason why I'll keep supporting them!
Indeed. Necromunda really is 3D roleplay. I get attached to my gangers like XCom fighters and enjoy telling their stories whether I win or lose. Totally different experience to 40K, though I do enjoy a big battle too, you can't care for every grunt that falls...
kodos wrote: and I can't still see how those things can work for a campaign but not for a tournament
or do you/the majority of people play the campaigns without a goal/target/overall winner in the end?
how to you know how the campaign ended or what was the result of the campaign?
if you say there are some scenarios that would determine the winner before the game is played, it need to be removed for a campaign too
if the balance issues are that big that some teams will always win against others, this is a big problem for campaigns too
if game mechanics affect the relative strength between the rounds that much, it is an issue for a campaign too.
so the overall winner for a campaign is determined by choosing the team, how often he wins depends on the scenario, and the team that suffers the first injuries is doomed?
if the answers is no, I see no problem why you cannot play a tournament using the rules out of the box the same way you play a campaign (but just instead playing 2 games a week over 2 months you play do it in 2 days)
I never played Necromunda with the aim of having a "winner". we played to see what happened. I suppose you could say that whoever had the highest gang rating at the end was a "winner", but none of us cared. The campaign never had an end point, either; I've not played against any of those guys for twenty years, but I still have the roster sheet; I could play again if we wanted.
As for unbalanced scenarios, there were plenty. I used to invent my own "victory conditions"; "OK, so I'm probably going to lose, but if I manage to get that ganger with Marksman that took out my Gang leader last game before I bottle out, that'll do". Or play Gunfighter, where you only have three models (chosen at random) on the table anyway. Or we'd gang up, 2 on 1.
I played in a tournament in GW using the Underhive edition rules. I won before any games were played, because I rolled three Archeotech Hoards as territories. In a campaign that would be an advantage, but not overwhelming because you wouldn't want to wear it out (you rolled between 2 and 6D6 *10 for the income from it; if you rolled a double, it was exhausted and became a Slag Heap worth 10 creds). In this tournament, with four games, I rolled 18D6 x 10 credits (plus my other two territories) and spent the windfall on power weapons and new recruits. The winning condition was the greatest increase in gang rating over four games, so I blew the other players out the water, despite having a record of something like 2 wins, 2 losses.
A year ago, four of us played an Inquisimunda campaign over the course of a day. Each of us had an Inquisitor investigating rumours of a xenos conspiracy. Two warbands fought over objectives representing clues, while being surprised by Necron Warrior sentries. Another two had to rescue the governor (it was a race between the two players) who was being attacked by Warriors and Flayed Ones. At the end, we all took part in a large game to penetrate the Necron Lord's underground base. That was a race to get to the Lord first to gain reputation for our Inquisitors, but in the end we all got massacred by Immortals.
That's how I'd run a Shadow War campaign - with a story, not just to find a "winner".
That was essentially Games Workshops mission statement for the past 10 years and it saw their share price plummet. They failed to understand, as you do, that for a lot of people the models are just an accessory for the rules.
Very recently, they've started realising that the "Games" in Games Workshop actually has a meaning for some people. They've started listening to their user base and producing more friendly games which are easier to get into and are easier to play. I accept that anecotal evidence is just that and it's impossible for us to say how many buy the models for the game and how many buy the games for the models but, since they started putting out better rulesets their stock price has soared. That itself carries some weight as far as evidence goes.
Im not sure about that, they seem to make most money off the big display type models, the best selling model of last year, their best year for a while, did not even have any rules.
Smaug has rules and even special scenarios where you use him.
