Last time I bother with Wayland, fed up of these companies not having a proper stock control system.
Just hoping the local GW will have enough copies in on saturday... :/
update: msg from local GW: ' Unfortunately we won't have enough copies to reserve any so it will all be done on a first come first serve basis and one copy per customer. we open at 10am on saturday so I would suggest coming down early to ensure you can get a copy'
Good grief, these clowns have no idea how to run a business...
So, does anyone know if there is a limit to how many special operatives that can be used per mission?
Obviously you'd be limited by how many promethium caches you have, but would it be possible to run one of each type in a game (obviously not with a solitaire) or more than one of a single type?
Yeah, it's totally not their fault, having read the email properly (my bad).
Still, I don't understand - don't they state how many copies they are reserving from GW, and then sell those first-come first-served? Like, an initial order?
Looks like I'm queuing outside the store on saturday morning... :/
I never played Necromunda with the aim of having a "winner".
I played Necromunda too and the end of a campaign was more or less if there was gang no one wanted to play against
that could happen after the first round or after 50
but now people who saw and played with the rules stated that it is not Necromunda and that a campaign has a fixed end with conditions to determine a winner.
so I won't base my opinion on the new game on my experience with the old one.
TheGrimDork wrote: So, does anyone know if there is a limit to how many special operatives that can be used per mission?
Obviously you'd be limited by how many promethium caches you have, but would it be possible to run one of each type in a game (obviously not with a solitaire) or more than one of a single type?
Anyone have the rule book yet?
I looked at the rules last weekend. One special operative per mission.
I never played Necromunda with the aim of having a "winner".
I played Necromunda too and the end of a campaign was more or less if there was gang no one wanted to play against
that could happen after the first round or after 50
but now people who saw and played with the rules stated that it is not Necromunda and that a campaign has a fixed end with conditions to determine a winner.
so I won't base my opinion on the new game on my experience with the old one.
Well, yes; this game has an end point - get to fifteen Promethium Caches and then win one last game. I was talking about Necromunda, though.
In theory, the campaign could be over in as few as four games (the first scenario gets you one cache, plus D3 for inflicting heavy casualties on the enemy, plus a fifth if you take out a Terminator or 'stealer; do that three times, then win the last game). However, since you spend caches to hire special operatives, and to gain additional resources for re-equipping or reinforcing your force, I imagine it will go on for much longer most of the time.
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are really wondering if this game should be a tournament game?
It's a campaign game, not a tournament game.
Its really not a campaign game. Check my impressions a few pages back, but with more than 20 games under my belt now, its clear this was built to be a "one day tournament/campaign" game, and not a proper progression based, long term campaign system like Necromunda.
Was talking to a GW manager. Apparently they made more shadow wars sets then they had for any other box like in recent time. More units then burning of Prospero or mark of calth.
GW knew it was going to be popular and tried to make plenty. GW corporate have been blown away by community reaction.
If you choose to belive him, This wasn't a case of them under producing on purpose like some people sujested. It just sold that well.
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are really wondering if this game should be a tournament game?
It's a campaign game, not a tournament game.
Its really not a campaign game. Check my impressions a few pages back, but with more than 20 games under my belt now, its clear this was built to be a "one day tournament/campaign" game, and not a proper progression based, long term campaign system like Necromunda.
This is actually fine with me. People can always just plug in the Necromunda rules for injuries and XP/advancement if they want a long running campaign. Getting together for a full day of lighter campaign progression and a bunch of games is exactly what I need out of a 40k game these days.
I still play Necromunda primarily, so something that isn't a carbon copy but still uses the core rules and basic concepts make this a easy change up game.
Out of curiosity, how many games are you finding it takes to complete the Shadow War campaign and have someone get to 15 caches?
Its really not a campaign game. Check my impressions a few pages back, but with more than 20 games under my belt now, its clear this was built to be a "one day tournament/campaign" game, and not a proper progression based, long term campaign system like Necromunda.
how many games would you suggest for a one/two day event?
TheGrimDork wrote: So, does anyone know if there is a limit to how many special operatives that can be used per mission?
Obviously you'd be limited by how many promethium caches you have, but would it be possible to run one of each type in a game (obviously not with a solitaire) or more than one of a single type?
Anyone have the rule book yet?
As many as you can afford. It costs your promethium, which is your VP, so its a loss for a hopefully larger gain.
It says even in the rules you can buy 2 of the same guy if you want or more. No limits. costs 1 guy for 1 VP though. On a good mission without bonuses seems to be you can earn up to 3 vp
Lockark wrote: Was talking to a GW manager. Apparently they made more shadow wars sets then they had for any other box like in recent time. More units then burning of Prospero or mark of calth.
GW knew it was going to be popular and tried to make plenty. GW corporate have been blown away by community reaction.
If you choose to belive him, This wasn't a case of them under producing on purpose like some people sujested. It just sold that well.
I don't believe it. If they produced so many, why did they limit it to 10 per store (that are not even delivered in most cases)? I remember pictures of store owners standing in front of a mountain of BaC boxes....
JohnnyHell wrote: Indeed. Necromunda really is 3D roleplay. I get attached to my gangers like XCom fighters and enjoy telling their stories whether I win or lose. Totally different experience to 40K, though I do enjoy a big battle too, you can't care for every grunt that falls...
That's not even a coincidence. XCOM developers stated that Necromunda was one of their inspirations.
I really hope that they do release the rules properly in book form. Doesn't need to be hard back, I'll be happy with soft back, just needs to be more then a ebook. That just won't cut it.
Its really not a campaign game. Check my impressions a few pages back, but with more than 20 games under my belt now, its clear this was built to be a "one day tournament/campaign" game, and not a proper progression based, long term campaign system like Necromunda.
how many games would you suggest for a one/two day event?
Statistically you shouldn't need more than seven or eight games. I think ours that first day took nine. The thing is, we me acting as organizer and making sure each table had the same scenario, we got through nine games in maybe eight hours (plus lunch). Shadow War plays FAST.
As I said, I am of two minds, but one take away has been that Shadow War, as-is, makes for a fairly balanced, one-day-tournament friendly system, where-as we'll always use the Necromunda campaign elements for our on-going "for fun" gaming.
Might want to go easy on FLGS as far as stock is concerned. Remember, before you pay for it, they do. Its like speculating in the stock market. Do you order ten copies and see how it goes, or go all in and get 60 copies? Now, where it will become an issue is if the FLGS sells out and tries to restock. If there is nothing to restock, then GW guessed too low on demand.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: And the real shame is... they did it for such an excellent product that it really could've become their gate-way product for years to come.
Something really went wrong here, for sure. But the window is still open to salvage Shadow War as a gateway game.
TheGrimDork wrote: So, does anyone know if there is a limit to how many special operatives that can be used per mission?
Obviously you'd be limited by how many promethium caches you have, but would it be possible to run one of each type in a game (obviously not with a solitaire) or more than one of a single type?
Anyone have the rule book yet?
I looked at the rules last weekend. One special operative per mission.
I never played Necromunda with the aim of having a "winner".
I played Necromunda too and the end of a campaign was more or less if there was gang no one wanted to play against
that could happen after the first round or after 50
but now people who saw and played with the rules stated that it is not Necromunda and that a campaign has a fixed end with conditions to determine a winner.
so I won't base my opinion on the new game on my experience with the old one.
Well, yes; this game has an end point - get to fifteen Promethium Caches and then win one last game. I was talking about Necromunda, though.
In theory, the campaign could be over in as few as four games (the first scenario gets you one cache, plus D3 for inflicting heavy casualties on the enemy, plus a fifth if you take out a Terminator or 'stealer; do that three times, then win the last game). However, since you spend caches to hire special operatives, and to gain additional resources for re-equipping or reinforcing your force, I imagine it will go on for much longer most of the time.
JohnnyHell wrote: Indeed. Necromunda really is 3D roleplay. I get attached to my gangers like XCom fighters and enjoy telling their stories whether I win or lose. Totally different experience to 40K, though I do enjoy a big battle too, you can't care for every grunt that falls...
That's not even a coincidence. XCOM developers stated that Necromunda was one of their inspirations.
Remake, maybe, else UFO: Enemy Unknown came out before Necromunda, no? (I feel old)
JohnnyHell wrote: Indeed. Necromunda really is 3D roleplay. I get attached to my gangers like XCom fighters and enjoy telling their stories whether I win or lose. Totally different experience to 40K, though I do enjoy a big battle too, you can't care for every grunt that falls...
That's not even a coincidence. XCOM developers stated that Necromunda was one of their inspirations.
Remake, maybe, else UFO: Enemy Unknown came out before Necromunda, no? (I feel old)
Necromunda was first, It was called confrontation and it was in WD.
It's nice we can hypothetically hire a bunch of special operatives every single mission, but I'd much rather let my troops have access to their gear.
Specops seem to get all the really cool toys!
Quick question for those who know more than me- are multiple armor saves allowed? If the first line of defense fails, do I get to roll the second (or subsequent)?
For example, the Solitaire has a holo-suit and impossible form, both of which allow for an armor save (4+ for the suit, 3+ for the form).
Melissia wrote: Apparently the only faction missing in the rules is Sisters of Battle.
The Inquisition and Chaos Daemons aren't there either.
There's a questionable lore-based logic there as to why Chaos Daemons wouldn't appear, they might have made a cool Special Operative for CSM but I'm happy enough with the choices that we got.
The Inquisition's absence is a bit baffling, I'd chalk it up to this being a small military missions/operations game, but it's hard to imagine an Inquisitor not wanting to get their hands dirty.
GW did say that their rules team are looking to expand the number of playable factions in the game, so maybe they'll be in game afterall.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: It's nice we can hypothetically hire a bunch of special operatives every single mission, but I'd much rather let my troops have access to their gear.
Specops seem to get all the really cool toys!
Yeah, I thought the same thing. Reading some cool wargear like the necron gravity displacement pack and think 'thats cool, who can take that?' and then find it is a special character :( boo hiss
Melissia wrote: Apparently the only faction missing in the rules is Sisters of Battle.
The Inquisition and Chaos Daemons aren't there either.
And yet, Grey Knights...
Yeah that one seemed a bit odd. Also why no DW? I have heard you can have a DW guy as a specop for SM. But I'd like to see a DW list to go up against all these filthy xenos lists. Plus the zoggin' lists are called KILL TEAMS after all lol!
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: And the real shame is... they did it for such an excellent product that it really could've become their gate-way product for years to come.
Something really went wrong here, for sure. But the window is still open to salvage Shadow War as a gateway game.
The window is closed for Shadow War: Armageddon, but a new, not limited, Shadow War: Something Else game could become a gateway game.
Still trying to figure out what such a game might contain: rulebook, dice and counters obviously. New terrain would be useful. I suppose it would need figures, but which figures?
I hope GW is giving this a hard think in light of this blown opportunity.
The window certainly is closed for Shadow War Armageddon, since it's unlikely they'll actually release the box in an intelligent manner whereupon people who want to buy it don't have to get it from scalpers charging several times its sale price.
But this is GW we're talking about. "Wait and see".
Vorian wrote: It's phrased badly, but all non cultists get marks
What? No. It says:
Marks of Chaos: When you recruit a model with this ability, pick a Mark of Chaos to give them and modify your roster accordingly.
So, what models "have this ability"? Chaos space marine rules:
A Chaos Space Marine has a combat blade and power armour. In addition, a Chaos Space Marine can be armed with items chosen from the Chaos Space Marines Hand-to-Hand Weapons, Pistols, Basic Weapons, Ammunition, Grenades and Miscellaneous Equipment lists.
So no mention whatsoever about having a rule that lets them take marks. Whereas all the spec ops specifically say that you can take a mark of chaos.
Vorian wrote: It's phrased badly, but all non cultists get marks
What? No. It says:
Marks of Chaos: When you recruit a model with this ability, pick a Mark of Chaos to give them and modify your roster accordingly.
So, what models "have this ability"? Chaos space marine rules:
A Chaos Space Marine has a combat blade and power armour. In addition, a Chaos Space Marine can be armed with items chosen from the Chaos Space Marines Hand-to-Hand Weapons, Pistols, Basic Weapons, Ammunition, Grenades and Miscellaneous Equipment lists.
So no mention whatsoever about having a rule that lets them take marks. Whereas all the spec ops specifically say that you can take a mark of chaos.
"The following special rule applies to all members of a Chaos Space Marines kill team, other than Chaos Cultists."
kingbobbito wrote: So no mention whatsoever about having a rule that lets them take marks. Whereas all the spec ops specifically say that you can take a mark of chaos.
On the left of the first page of the rules for Chaos Marines, under the heading Chaos Space Marine Special Rules.
RAW is definitely nothing except Spec Ops gets marks. It makes little sense, but that's what it is. I think we will likely see this FAQd though (Raptors get Marks but I can't have a Nurgle marine force? seems unintentional)
Charax wrote: RAW is definitely nothing except Spec Ops gets marks. It makes little sense, but that's what it is. I think we will likely see this FAQd though (Raptors get Marks but I can't have a Nurgle marine force? seems unintentional)
The confusion comes as on the special operatives page, the Mark of Chaos is listed under Wargear, which is a bit misleading.
Whereas on the main page for gang creation there is a special rule which covers all non-cultist models.
Different ways of writing the same thing but both RAW.
Melissia wrote: Apparently the only faction missing in the rules is Sisters of Battle.
The Inquisition and Chaos Daemons aren't there either.
There's a questionable lore-based logic there as to why Chaos Daemons wouldn't appear, they might have made a cool Special Operative for CSM but I'm happy enough with the choices that we got.
The Inquisition's absence is a bit baffling, I'd chalk it up to this being a small military missions/operations game, but it's hard to imagine an Inquisitor not wanting to get their hands dirty.
GW did say that their rules team are looking to expand the number of playable factions in the game, so maybe they'll be in game afterall.
I assumed that factions who could make an interesting varied team from a single infantry box were included. It was after all one of the big buzzwords/marketingpoints for this release.
Inquisition and sisters surely doesn't have that. Daemons... nah, not really.
So I suppose sisters will get rules when they get their plastic infantry boxes :-P
Latest painting competition on WH social media is Shadow War kill teams.
Will our intrepid internet audience be able to contain their snark and anger? Or will overtime be authorised in Nottingham to clean up slung gak off their Facebook posts? Sadly, I fear the latter...
I'm surprised no one has noticed, or if they have, have not yet posted that the Shadow War boxed game on the GW webstore has recently changed from "Sold Out - No Longer Avaliable" to "Temporarily Out of Stock"
Looks like there will be at least one more print run of the box, if not a permanent place on the product list. I'm inclined to believe the former over the latter...and truly believe their initial agenda here was to introduce a boxed deal for a new terrain set, but added the rules on to sweeten the deal....The limited run was to get everyone a taste and wanting more of the terrain which they plan to release in smaller, individual sets for a higher price next week. By continuing to offer the large box deal, they permanently reduce the value of those individually packed, higher priced terrain sets....thereby causing them to sit on that unsold product.
The kits will be priced as follows (according to April WD):
Alchomite Stack - USA $50
Spoiler:
Galvanic Magnavent - USA $75
Spoiler:
Ferratonic Furnace - USA $50
Spoiler:
So, a grand total of $175 (USA Retal) just for the terrain that comes in the Shadow War box...
Fango wrote: I'm surprised no one has noticed, or if they have, have not yet posted that the Shadow War boxed game on the GW webstore has recently changed from "Sold Out - No Longer Avaliable" to "Temporarily Out of Stock"
It's been discussed at great length. And it no longer is listed as Temporarily Out of Stock, either - at least not on the US website.
Fango wrote: I'm surprised no one has noticed, or if they have, have not yet posted that the Shadow War boxed game on the GW webstore has recently changed from "Sold Out - No Longer Avaliable" to "Temporarily Out of Stock"
It's been discussed at great length. And it no longer is listed as Temporarily Out of Stock, either - at least not on the US website.
I noticed that as well - but I wouldn't count on that meaning anything. That part of site seems to be the last to be updated. For example, some of the Kill Team bundles have come in and out of stock - but you need to actually click to the full entry page to see what the actual status is. On the gridview page, Harlequin were still listed as OOS - click to the full page and you have an Add To Cart button.
Fango wrote: I'm surprised no one has noticed, or if they have, have not yet posted that the Shadow War boxed game on the GW webstore has recently changed from "Sold Out - No Longer Avaliable" to "Temporarily Out of Stock"
It's been discussed at great length. And it no longer is listed as Temporarily Out of Stock, either - at least not on the US website.
Smellingsalts wrote: Might want to go easy on FLGS as far as stock is concerned. Remember, before you pay for it, they do. Its like speculating in the stock market. Do you order ten copies and see how it goes, or go all in and get 60 copies? Now, where it will become an issue is if the FLGS sells out and tries to restock. If there is nothing to restock, then GW guessed too low on demand.
Except in this case, it's not a restock issue... stores aren't getting their initial orders.
Manchu wrote:Yeah that one seemed a bit odd. Also why no DW? I have heard you can have a DW guy as a specop for SM. But I'd like to see a DW list to go up against all these filthy xenos lists. Plus the zoggin' lists are called KILL TEAMS after all lol!
JohnHwangDD wrote:
And yet, Grey Knights...
Yeah, Grey Knights definitely raised an eyebrow. You'd figure Deathwatch would be there instead as the loyalist power armoured marines. On a slightly different note, I've always though a team of Deathwatch scouts would be cool... even if they are filthy loyalists
Charax wrote:RAW is definitely nothing except Spec Ops gets marks. It makes little sense, but that's what it is. I think we will likely see this FAQd though (Raptors get Marks but I can't have a Nurgle marine force? seems unintentional)
I'm not sure if my reading comprehension is just different to some people, but this is how I'm reading it -- The Chaos Space Marines special rules section says:
"The following special rule applies to all members of a Chaos Space Marines kill team, other than Chaos Cultists."
The only rule following this statement is the Marks of Chaos rule, which means everyone in the Kill Team, but cultists, has the Marks of Chaos rule (as it applies to everyone but cultists), which in turn allows them to pick a mark when recruited.
I can see why the Special Operatives section is confusing people, but I can't see how the wording in the "Chaos Space Marines Special Rules" section makes sense if only Spec Ops can get Marks
So, a grand total of $175 (USA Retal) just for the terrain that comes in the Shadow War box...
Though it has been mention somewhere in this thread, that there is less than the three kits worth in the starter box.
Still would have preferred to have been able to buy a couple of starter boxes over having to buy individual boxes at a higher cost, at least to have a starting point for the terrain.
I really like the bone and dull yellow scheme they used on the terrain.
I'm glad I waited to paint my Necromunda bulkheads, I'll likely do them to match this stuff.
Lots of detail, they're going to take ages to paint properly. I presume they link up to the Promethium Relay and Haemotrope?
Fango wrote: I'm surprised no one has noticed, or if they have, have not yet posted that the Shadow War boxed game on the GW webstore has recently changed from "Sold Out - No Longer Avaliable" to "Temporarily Out of Stock"
It's been discussed at great length. And it no longer is listed as Temporarily Out of Stock, either - at least not on the US website.
All I know is what wayland told me that GW told them. "No more box sets will be produced". They even canclled my preorder, so I wouldn't be expecting any re-runs.
Manchu wrote:Yeah that one seemed a bit odd. Also why no DW? I have heard you can have a DW guy as a specop for SM. But I'd like to see a DW list to go up against all these filthy xenos lists. Plus the zoggin' lists are called KILL TEAMS after all lol!
JohnHwangDD wrote:
And yet, Grey Knights...
Yeah, Grey Knights definitely raised an eyebrow. You'd figure Deathwatch would be there instead as the loyalist power armoured marines. On a slightly different note, I've always though a team of Deathwatch scouts would be cool... even if they are filthy loyalists
Thinking a bit more on it, it actually isn't that weird for Grey Knights to be present.
Bear with me here. Ever since Angron came in and wrecked the place, there's probably been a "Watch This Planet Carefully" marker on Armageddon. Chaos taint leaves a mark, physically and magically, that the Grey Knights probably have been keeping an eye on.
Also, you can get a Deathwatch Veteran as a Specialist Operative for the Marines.
He only gets benefits versus Orks though.
Roknar wrote: All I know is what wayland told me that GW told them. "No more box sets will be produced". They even canclled my preorder, so I wouldn't be expecting any re-runs.
Yeah, I think Wayland's announcement pretty much cinches it - I have to say, I am starting to think that frozenwastes was correct and I was wrong about this box being under-priced. I'm not one of those posters that assumes GW is stupid or evil so I am wondering if what happened here was more complicated than "oops we forgot to tell everyone outside of Nottingham that this was limited."
Roknar wrote: All I know is what wayland told me that GW told them. "No more box sets will be produced". They even canclled my preorder, so I wouldn't be expecting any re-runs.
Yeah, I think Wayland's announcement pretty much cinches it - I have to say, I am starting to think that frozenwastes was correct and I was wrong about this box being under-priced. I'm not one of those posters that assumes GW is stupid or evil so I am wondering if what happened here was more complicated than "oops we forgot to tell everyone outside of Nottingham that this was limited."
Maybe independents need to talk to their reps better?
Dr Mathias wrote: I really like the bone and dull yellow scheme they used on the terrain.
I'm glad I waited to paint my Necromunda bulkheads, I'll likely do them to match this stuff.
Lots of detail, they're going to take ages to paint properly. I presume they link up to the Promethium Relay and Haemotrope?
Yes the White Dwarf shows off some of these options. The massive promethium processing plant also has several pipe relays and a reactor worked into its design.
I've been told by my sales rep that this is "while supplies last" and "a bridge until the next edition comes out". He's hopeful that if GW sees good sales from it, that they will offer more support.
I'm hoping they at least keep the main game in print for a good while, or put all the rules up for download and sell scenery seperately.
Kanluwen wrote: Bear with me here. Ever since Angron came in and wrecked the place, there's probably been a "Watch This Planet Carefully" marker on Armageddon. Chaos taint leaves a mark, physically and magically, that the Grey Knights probably have been keeping an eye on.
That's a nice justification - I guess the only issue is, no Chaos threat materialized during the Third War, correct? And therefore there was no GK intervention. So to the extent that the list selection is "historical" neither of those factions would be included ... and then there's Tau. I'm just thinking of one of those blue fish looking around the ash wastes thinking, sweet ethereal faceslits how in the cursed name of mont'au did I end up here???
So, a grand total of $175 (USA Retal) just for the terrain that comes in the Shadow War box...
Though it has been mention somewhere in this thread, that there is less than the three kits worth in the starter box.
Still would have preferred to have been able to buy a couple of starter boxes over having to buy individual boxes at a higher cost, at least to have a starting point for the terrain.
I see that now, looks like one less sprue of the pipes. Let's say that's, what, half the value of that Alchomite Stack kit...dropping the retail value of Shadow War box terrain from $175, down to $150 , stiill cheaper to get the Shadow War box (not even counting the game rules, dice, templates, and figures), and less redundancy with the pipes. I think the more valued kits are going to be the ones with the platforms anyway.
My initial thoughts still stand though. This release was supposed to be a splash release for their new terrain line, but the prospective customers latched on to the New-cromunda rules and the Skirmish 40K aspect of the box more than the terrain, per se. It seems to me,the loudest critics to the stocking issues of this release are those that NEED to have a physical, production quality, printed copy of the rules more than anything else.
The community has been aching for a decent 40K skirmish game for ages, and this seems to fit that bill nicely. GW perhaps underestimated that long-unfulfilled niche and got caught out on it with this release.
Kanluwen wrote: Bear with me here. Ever since Angron came in and wrecked the place, there's probably been a "Watch This Planet Carefully" marker on Armageddon. Chaos taint leaves a mark, physically and magically, that the Grey Knights probably have been keeping an eye on.
That's a nice justification - I guess the only issue is, no Chaos threat materialized during the Third War, correct? And therefore there was no GK intervention. So to the extent that the list selection is "historical" neither of those factions would be included ... and then there's Tau. I'm just thinking of one of those blue fish looking around the ash wastes thinking, sweet ethereal faceslits how in the cursed name of mont'au did I end up here???
I mean, if we're just going off "historical" then there's no Genestealer Cults, Tyranids, or Chaos Marines present either...
It's really kind of silly to imagine that them titling something "Shadow War: Armageddon" automatically meant it was ONLY going to be Armageddon and not potentially the start of another line ala Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower.
Kanluwen wrote: It's really kind of silly to imagine that them titling something "Shadow War: Armageddon" automatically meant it was ONLY going to be Armageddon and not potentially the start of another line ala Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower.
Well sure - but you were the one rationalizing the GK list by reference to the fluff for Armageddon ...
Kanluwen wrote: Maybe independents need to talk to their reps better?.
Hey good point RE: Mikhaila - I guess that's one more reason to believe something more complicated happened/is happening.
Digclaw wrote: Aslo The Johnny Fives would be worthess in a game where you have to climb ladders.
Tell that to the Terminators!
And if a ladder can bear a Terminator, the AdMech needs to start making Leman Russes out of whatever they're making the ladders out of!
Seriously - Cult Mechanicus should get a list, too. Electro-Priests need to be in this game! (So I have an excuse to buy them )
Kanluwen wrote: It's really kind of silly to imagine that them titling something "Shadow War: Armageddon" automatically meant it was ONLY going to be Armageddon and not potentially the start of another line ala Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower.
Well sure - but you were the one rationalizing the GK list by reference to the fluff for Armageddon ...
Kanluwen wrote: Maybe independents need to talk to their reps better?.
Hey good point RE: Mikhaila - I guess that's one more reason to believe something more complicated happened/is happening.
Digclaw wrote: Aslo The Johnny Fives would be worthess in a game where you have to climb ladders.
Tell that to the Terminators!
And if a ladder can bear a Terminator, the AdMech needs to start making Leman Russes out of whatever they're making the ladders out of!
Seriously - Cult Mechanicus should get a list, too. Electro-Priests need to be in this game! (So I have an excuse to buy them )
I would love to use a kill team of Electro Preists, Oh! WAIT! I do in KILL TEAM ;p
You don't need an excuse to by Electro Priests, they are sooooooooo pretty! (They are what got me into ADMECH after the Dominus)
Also At least Terminators have functional Arms and Legs, You would need a board with a spiral ramp in the middle to Use Johnny Fives in Shadow War
Manchu wrote:Well sure - but you were the one rationalizing the GK list by reference to the fluff for Armageddon ...
CSM vs GK could be "historical" first war for Armageddon games!
Manchu wrote:And if a ladder can bear a Terminator, the AdMech needs to start making Leman Russes out of whatever they're making the ladders out of!
Seriously - Cult Mechanicus should get a list, too. Electro-Priests need to be in this game! (So I have an excuse to buy them )
I do recall a bit of Tau fluff (not sure what from I'm afraid, maybe the 4th ed codex?) where they observed that Imperium made Leman Russes out of woefully inefficient/bad for purpose material, so that might not be that bad of an idea
nurgle5 wrote: I do recall a bit of Tau fluff [...] where they observed that Imperium made Leman Russes out of woefully inefficient/bad for purpose materia
Typical xeno arrogance! The Tau can get back to us when they conquer a galaxy.
Roknar wrote: All I know is what wayland told me that GW told them. "No more box sets will be produced". They even canclled my preorder, so I wouldn't be expecting any re-runs.
Yeah, I think Wayland's announcement pretty much cinches it
Multiple things can be true.
If the website says temporarily out of stock, then it'll be back. But perhaps the restock will be GW Webstore exclusive. I can totally see GW doing that.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If the website says temporarily out of stock, then it'll be back.
But that's not really what it says. Yes, you can find that on GW's site BUT it is in a place that we know is often inaccurate. Meanwhile, the reliably accurate part of the site - the product's actual page - does NOT say Temp OOS.
JohnnyHell wrote: Indeed. Necromunda really is 3D roleplay. I get attached to my gangers like XCom fighters and enjoy telling their stories whether I win or lose. Totally different experience to 40K, though I do enjoy a big battle too, you can't care for every grunt that falls...
That's not even a coincidence. XCOM developers stated that Necromunda was one of their inspirations.
Remake, maybe, else UFO: Enemy Unknown came out before Necromunda, no? (I feel old)
Necromunda was first, It was called confrontation and it was in WD.
Well, it was a game, set in Necromunda, that focussed on inter-gang warfare that had a campaign/experience system that allowed individual models to change and advance as individuals over multiple games.
You could argue it wasn't Necromunda for some random reason, but it would be fairly pedantic to do so.
Roknar wrote: All I know is what wayland told me that GW told them. "No more box sets will be produced". They even canclled my preorder, so I wouldn't be expecting any re-runs.
Yeah, I think Wayland's announcement pretty much cinches it - I have to say, I am starting to think that frozenwastes was correct and I was wrong about this box being under-priced. I'm not one of those posters that assumes GW is stupid or evil so I am wondering if what happened here was more complicated than "oops we forgot to tell everyone outside of Nottingham that this was limited."
I think they are simply telling the truth and underestimated the demand and part of that demand was caused by people thinking this was an evergreen game going forward. People like future releases for their games and I'm guessing they thought this game was going to be an ongoing product line. On both local facebook groups and email lists for a couple nearby clubs, everyone was going ape gak about this game being something more than a one and done. That it was the relaunch of Necromunda and a new ongoing gateway into the 40k universe.
Given what mikhaila wrote, I think the misunderstanding was not inside GW. If trade sales personnel know the product is a limited run, then there probably wasn't an internal disconnect. As well, did the GAMA presenters every actually say this was an ongoing product line? Or did people assume it was because they took it to a trade show. If demand was what they were expecting, then taking it to a trade show makes a lot of sense. They needed to flog it.
The real point of this product was to cover the tooling and design costs of ongoing 40k terrain. GW knows their products sell well within a month or two of release and selling a bunch of box sets with some terrain and a bunch of scouts and orks that have had their tooling costs recouped years ago is a great way to make that happen.
The truth of the matter is that the product was not under priced if they actually want to embrace the main advantage of injection moulding plastic. The lowering of the marginal cost of the next sprue produced. So in that way I am wrong. 15 years ago, GW embraced that advantage, but since then they've moved away from it and gone with a premium pricing model. So they have a manufacturing process that contradicts how they sell models, but they manage to sell enough models to overcome not taking maximum advantage of the cost reduction by selling stand alone products or bundles, or other launch marketing to make sure the initial sales covers the up front costs.
Invest X thousands in tooling and design. Make a bundle/box set that covers that enough to meet their expected margins once it finally sells through. Have a range of terrain models going forward where the costs are all covered and the margins are fantastic, even if they never sell as well as they did within a couple months of launch.
Mark Well's plan works. The only problem for the last few years is that Kirby took Wells' plan and combined it with complete communication shutdown. Now Rountree is taking that original plan and combining it with actual engagement with social media, their own community site, and even trade shows and conventions.
Azreal13 wrote: Well, it was a game, set in Necromunda, that focussed on inter-gang warfare that had a campaign/experience system that allowed individual models to change and advance as individuals over multiple games.
You could argue it wasn't Necromunda for some random reason, but it would be fairly pedantic to do so.
No it would just be correct. It was different rules, had a different name, and wasn't the game being referred to earlier. Spiritual predecessor, yes. Same game, no.
What would be pedantic would be continuing down this path of "X = Y" that isn't relevant to the thread or even the question posed, as I've answered that by posting the link from the XCom remake developer talking about 'Necromunda' (yes the 1995 game called 'Necromunda', not Confrontation).
Once again, PM me if you want to continue this new tangent so folks can get back to their thread about Shadow War: Armageddon. Which is also not Necromunda, though it is mighty similar. ;-)
No it would just be correct. It was different rules, had a different name, and wasn't the game being referred to earlier. Spiritual predecessor, yes. Same game, no.
By that extension, the first 3 editions of 40K are considered different games as well? All three had completely different rules, 2nd onwards dropped "Rogue Trader" from the name, heck, even the background was more radically altered than from Confrontation into Necromunda between 1st and 2nd.
If it walks like a duck, don't try and argue it's an aquatic avian quacking device.
Roknar wrote: All I know is what wayland told me that GW told them. "No more box sets will be produced". They even canclled my preorder, so I wouldn't be expecting any re-runs.
Yeah, I think Wayland's announcement pretty much cinches it - I have to say, I am starting to think that frozenwastes was correct and I was wrong about this box being under-priced. I'm not one of those posters that assumes GW is stupid or evil so I am wondering if what happened here was more complicated than "oops we forgot to tell everyone outside of Nottingham that this was limited."
I think they are simply telling the truth and underestimated the demand and part of that demand was caused by people thinking this was an evergreen game going forward. People like future releases for their games and I'm guessing they thought this game was going to be an ongoing product line. On both local facebook groups and email lists for a couple nearby clubs, everyone was going ape gak about this game being something more than a one and done. That it was the relaunch of Necromunda and a new ongoing gateway into the 40k universe.
Given what mikhaila wrote, I think the misunderstanding was not inside GW. If trade sales personnel know the product is a limited run, then there probably wasn't an internal disconnect. As well, did the GAMA presenters every actually say this was an ongoing product line? Or did people assume it was because they took it to a trade show. If demand was what they were expecting, then taking it to a trade show makes a lot of sense. They needed to flog it.
The real point of this product was to cover the tooling and design costs of ongoing 40k terrain. GW knows their products sell well within a month or two of release and selling a bunch of box sets with some terrain and a bunch of scouts and orks that have had their tooling costs recouped years ago is a great way to make that happen.
The truth of the matter is that the product was not under priced if they actually want to embrace the main advantage of injection moulding plastic. The lowering of the marginal cost of the next sprue produced. So in that way I am wrong. 15 years ago, GW embraced that advantage, but since then they've moved away from it and gone with a premium pricing model. So they have a manufacturing process that contradicts how they sell models, but they manage to sell enough models to overcome not taking maximum advantage of the cost reduction by selling stand alone products or bundles, or other launch marketing to make sure the initial sales covers the up front costs.
Invest X thousands in tooling and design. Make a bundle/box set that covers that enough to meet their expected margins once it finally sells through. Have a range of terrain models going forward where the costs are all covered and the margins are fantastic, even if they never sell as well as they did within a couple months of launch.
Mark Well's plan works. The only problem for the last few years is that Kirby took Wells' plan and combined it with complete communication shutdown. Now Rountree is taking that original plan and combining it with actual engagement with social media, their own community site, and even trade shows and conventions.
The thing is they didn't just take it to a trade show, they've also produced a whole promotional pack of posters, wristbands, etc. That kind of stuff is there to raise the profile of a release and get more people buying it over a period of time. If you don't have any stock beyond a splash release and have no intention of restocking or providing ongoing support, why spend a lot of time and resources to try and raise the profile of the game in stores after release? The real telling thing for me is they had no separate rulebook ready, either print or digital. If this was intended to be an ongoing game that would at least have been slated for a follow up release, if not on the day, but all of GWs announcements imply that they are not accelerating a product they planned to release later, but having to create it from scratch. This speaks to an internal disconnect.
Jadenim wrote:
The thing is they didn't just take it to a trade show, they've also produced a whole promotional pack of posters, wristbands, etc. That kind of stuff is there to raise the profile of a release and get more people buying it over a period of time. If you don't have any stock beyond a splash release and have no intention of restocking or providing ongoing support, why spend a lot of time and resources to try and raise the profile of the game in stores after release?
They honestly underestimated the demand and thought the copies they printed would sell out in 60 days or so (a pretty common time frame for estimating initial print runs based on previous sales) with this marketing experiment being part of that. They were honestly caught off guard.
The real telling thing for me is they had no separate rulebook ready, either print or digital. If this was intended to be an ongoing game that would at least have been slated for a follow up release, if not on the day, but all of GWs announcements imply that they are not accelerating a product they planned to release later, but having to create it from scratch. This speaks to an internal disconnect.
The lack of a separate rulebook or a follow up product shows how surprised they were, not that one guy forgot to send another a memo or something.
Oh well in that case you will certainly, absolutely get a copy, because we are able to determine their stock levels and the number of customers before you that will want copies, not to mention any the staff may have put aside for themselves and completely eliminated any possibilities of deliveries being disrupted.
Seriously, what kind of a stupid question is that? how are any of us possibly going to be able to tell you if you're going to get a copy?
H.B.M.C. wrote: The GW store nearest to the work is arguably the biggest one in my country. If I get there around 10:15-10:25, will I get a box?
I doubt it.
The chap at warhammer world told me that I would have to get there for opening time if I wanted a chance at getting one, and even then I would need to get there early !!
Also,
The box I thought was coming for my brother was ordered from Wayland, and they cancelled the order yesterday, typical wayland games, selling stuff they do not have.
Jadenim wrote:
The thing is they didn't just take it to a trade show, they've also produced a whole promotional pack of posters, wristbands, etc. That kind of stuff is there to raise the profile of a release and get more people buying it over a period of time. If you don't have any stock beyond a splash release and have no intention of restocking or providing ongoing support, why spend a lot of time and resources to try and raise the profile of the game in stores after release?
They honestly underestimated the demand and thought the copies they printed would sell out in 60 days or so (a pretty common time frame for estimating initial print runs based on previous sales) with this marketing experiment being part of that. They were honestly caught off guard.
Even if it was an underestimation the point of that specific trade show is to drive up the interest of retailers so they will carry the product lines. There is effectively nothing here for retailers to carry. No gaming retailer wants to sell just one of something, they want recursiveness. Maybe this is a consequence of GW not having trade show experience. They didn't even really think about the nature of this game. This isn't a Spacehulk or Warhammer Quest; while you don't necessarily need duplicate rule books or Killteams, you need more than just the terrain in the box and there is strong likelihood everyone interested will want their own rulebook. Even before you consider the people who wanted multiple copies for themselves this by the nature of the game was likely to sell 2 to 3 times as many copies just to accommodate a comparably sized player base as those other games.
The real telling thing for me is they had no separate rulebook ready, either print or digital. If this was intended to be an ongoing game that would at least have been slated for a follow up release, if not on the day, but all of GWs announcements imply that they are not accelerating a product they planned to release later, but having to create it from scratch. This speaks to an internal disconnect.
The lack of a separate rulebook or a follow up product shows how surprised they were, not that one guy forgot to send another a memo or something.
The lack of a rulebook is rather moot. This whole situation shows how little thought was put into how the nature of the game would necessitate multiple sales. Just for 2 people to play they will need more than two sets worth of terrain. The smallest "group" that can play out a campaign, as is intended, is going to be 4... meaning a group needs 4-6 boxes. They'd always have enough rulebooks. The typical store allocations have been only 4 sets, so unless you live in an area with multiple stores very few people will be able to have a dedicated group and the longevity of that small a group will be jeopardized by Ian inability to grow the group.
Vorian wrote: That would be true if you needed the box to play - which isn't the case.
You need 0 boxes to play.
of course because you can always illegally download the rules somewhere if someone scan and upload the book
otherwise each group need at least one box to play the game, and most groups prefer to have at least one book per 2 players
if you want to say people can still play something else
yes, you need 0 boxes of SW:A to play a small Skirmish game, you can always just buy Deadzone or Infinity instead or play 200 points 40k
I have the Necromunda rules. They are out there for free. I know the changes from this thread. I am not some mad genius, It's easy to be in my situation.
The rulebook is coming separately, in whatever format. So in reality one person will need to buy that and the group is good.
So a worse case scenario, if you immediately wanted to play now, if for some reason you were incapable of playing unless you had a printed rulebook in front of you, would be 1 copy of the boxed game per group.
To suggest you need more than one per group is nothing but hyperbole to complain about GW underestimating demand.
Vorian wrote: I have the Necromunda rules. They are out there for free. I know the changes from this thread. I am not some mad genius, It's easy to be in my situation.
No other miniatures game requires you to have an old rules set from a different game, and to use a rumours thread on a forum to find the changes from that rules set in order to play it. Until they release the rulebook separately (which wasn't the plan, originally), you do need the box to play.
This one doesn't either. You just can't get it for a bit.
Until then though. And it wasn't me saying that, Vorian was saying that's how you can play it now. Not everyone wanting to play will have that knowledge.
Been told digital version of the rule book should be released very soon from BL. No word on price.
Speculation among the GW staff is that the only thing from the box set that will not be released separate/reprinted is the tokens.
My personal speculation is that a stand alone book reprint will be a few months out since they will need to get more printed, shipped, and disdributed. So a digital copy of the rules will be put out to tie people over.
Roknar wrote: All I know is what wayland told me that GW told them. "No more box sets will be produced". They even canclled my preorder, so I wouldn't be expecting any re-runs.
Yeah, I think Wayland's announcement pretty much cinches it - I have to say, I am starting to think that frozenwastes was correct and I was wrong about this box being under-priced. I'm not one of those posters that assumes GW is stupid or evil so I am wondering if what happened here was more complicated than "oops we forgot to tell everyone outside of Nottingham that this was limited."
Maybe independents need to talk to their reps better?
Mikhaila posted that it was limited early on.
It might shock you bit we were very specific in our communications. Our email to customers was absolutely accurate in what had occurred. We also requested a call with Head of Trade that we are still waiting for. GW often limit a product in initial release windows, but they also indicate whether its a splash or limited release moving forwards, they didn't do that in this case. They also solicit for pre order numbers in advance, which we provided. Then we received less than 2% of the numbers required. Limiting supply raises prices fundamentally and reduces competition.
Eh, I doubt they'll bother with a book that needs printing, storing, shipping, storing, distributing, storing and finally selling, some weeks/months after the ship has sailed. Even using Polish/Italian 6-week leadtimes for colour, they'd be risking being sat on stock as their PR is *now*. Far better to get a digital copy out during the scenery release window (PDF and/or enhanced iBook if they can get it through Apple in time) and capitalise on the current buzz they've paid to generate. After that, there's little point in a physical book in this day and age.
JohnnyHell wrote: Eh, I doubt they'll bother with a book that needs printing, storing, shipping, storing, distributing, storing and finally selling, some weeks/months after the ship has sailed. Even using Polish/Italian 6-week leadtimes for colour, they'd be risking being sat on stock as their PR is *now*. Far better to get a digital copy out during the scenery release window (PDF and/or enhanced iBook if they can get it through Apple in time) and capitalise on the current buzz they've paid to generate. After that, there's little point in a physical book in this day and age. (in my opinion)
Edited your post.
On the whole I agree though. GW will probably just put up for sale an electroinc version. They'll ride it out for a month or so with people asking for a print version, then everyone will forget as 40k is re-released to even more hype.
Shame though... It was the first game rule set I've tried to buy from GW since I felt foolish for buying 40k 7th and that huge final set of Fantasy rules when it was released (8th? - I cba going into my loft to get see how many old versions I have stored since the 2nd edition 1984 box)
I know it might seem early given few of us have actually played this iteration, but hey.
Me, I'm kind of tempted to mix up equipment availability, if only to encourage conversions and otherwise unique Kill Teams down my local club - which for me is at least half the point of a game at this scale, no?
Also,
The box I thought was coming for my brother was ordered from Wayland, and they cancelled the order yesterday, typical wayland games, selling stuff they do not have.
That kind of is how preorders work... It's hardly Wayland's fault that GW couldn't supply retailer orders in full.
oh yeah, tons of house rules and fan rules bubbling away. Sororitas, a cut down trading post, conversion rules to Necro, more stuff to spend Promethium Caches on, more spec ops...
I know it might seem early given few of us have actually played this iteration, but hey.
Me, I'm kind of tempted to mix up equipment availability, if only to encourage conversions and otherwise unique Kill Teams down my local club - which for me is at least half the point of a game at this scale, no?
We're considering using the Necromunda advancement/injury tables since they're a bit more varied, possibly even including some of the gangs providing the power disparity between the new Kill Teams and them isn't too great.
I don't think you need house rules to encourage conversions though, since Kill Teams only need a few models, the game itself is a great outlet to flex some creative muscles. For example, my Chaos Cultist with Autopistol, which was a bit more hassle to make than just using one out of the box! --
The problem I'm imagining with just using Necro advancement is that these gangs all come out of the gate pretty strong.
Necromunda starts to break down once gangs are so good that they start shooting people off the table - so the limit on advances keeps the power level around what you'd get in the middle of a campaign. Between starter gang uselessness and end campaign Gods of destruction.
Also, cool conversion Cant wait to start cutting my scouts up!
Also,
The box I thought was coming for my brother was ordered from Wayland, and they cancelled the order yesterday, typical wayland games, selling stuff they do not have.
That kind of is how preorders work... It's hardly Wayland's fault that GW couldn't supply retailer orders in full.
Nope, a pre order is when you sell something earlier that you know you will be able to sell, it is poor form to do pre orders if you might not be able to get your hands on the goods in question.
It was good that they offered him £5 store credit, but he seems pretty let down and wont be buying from there again because of this.
Also,
The box I thought was coming for my brother was ordered from Wayland, and they cancelled the order yesterday, typical wayland games, selling stuff they do not have.
That kind of is how preorders work... It's hardly Wayland's fault that GW couldn't supply retailer orders in full.
Nope, a pre order is when you sell something you know you will be able to sell, it is poor form to sell do pre orders if you might not be able to get your hands on the goods in question.
It was good that they offered him £5 store credit, but he seems pretty let down and wont be buying from there again because of this.
I'm split on this one.
On one hand, it's very much on GW (I know, me criticising GW!). They failed to predict the demand, despite having fed the hype machine. And now, they can't fulfil the demand.
On the other? This is Wayland, who don't exactly have the best of reputations when it comes to fulfilling customer orders.
In this case, it's impossible to tell which party is most at fault. It could simply be Wayland being Wayland and accepting orders they know they don't have stock for (hypothetically - ordering 100 from GW, but accepting 250 orders). It could be GW promising the 250, but only being able to provide 100. 50/50 fault here.
Right, back to conversions and that!
That Chaos Cultist is luvverly - but consider my Skitarii. Basic troops don't get many options at all. Essentially they either get a Rad Carbine or a Galvanic Rifle. No options for pistols or close combat weapons. Me, I'd like to open up some kind of basic Pistol and CCW choices, so I have an excuse to convert up a 'custom designed Kill Team' - not just by myself, but the Skitarii's Forgeworld having specially equipped Maniples for infiltration when the Spindlelimbs are stretched.
On one hand, it's very much on GW (I know, me criticising GW!). They failed to predict the demand, despite having fed the hype machine. And now, they can't fulfil the demand.
On the other? This is Wayland, who don't exactly have the best of reputations when it comes to fulfilling customer orders.
In this case, it's impossible to tell which party is most at fault. It could simply be Wayland being Wayland and accepting orders they know they don't have stock for (hypothetically - ordering 100 from GW, but accepting 250 orders). It could be GW promising the 250, but only being able to provide 100. 50/50 fault here.
Right, back to conversions and that!
That Chaos Cultist is luvverly - but consider my Skitarii. Basic troops don't get many options at all. Essentially they either get a Rad Carbine or a Galvanic Rifle. No options for pistols or close combat weapons. Me, I'd like to open up some kind of basic Pistol and CCW choices, so I have an excuse to convert up a 'custom designed Kill Team' - not just by myself, but the Skitarii's Forgeworld having specially equipped Maniples for infiltration when the Spindlelimbs are stretched.
Maybe I am being harsh to Wayland in this instance, there is always a chance that they were let down, this can happen with pre orders I guess.
I assumed they knew they had made a mistake by offering the credit.
Personally, I would never sell anything in the shops I have been involved with, until I had the items at hand.
I have not used them for a while now and when my brother told me had had made the order at noon on saturday, I told him he would not get it !
On one hand, it's very much on GW (I know, me criticising GW!). They failed to predict the demand, despite having fed the hype machine. And now, they can't fulfil the demand.
On the other? This is Wayland, who don't exactly have the best of reputations when it comes to fulfilling customer orders.
In this case, it's impossible to tell which party is most at fault. It could simply be Wayland being Wayland and accepting orders they know they don't have stock for (hypothetically - ordering 100 from GW, but accepting 250 orders). It could be GW promising the 250, but only being able to provide 100. 50/50 fault here.
Right, back to conversions and that!
That Chaos Cultist is luvverly - but consider my Skitarii. Basic troops don't get many options at all. Essentially they either get a Rad Carbine or a Galvanic Rifle. No options for pistols or close combat weapons. Me, I'd like to open up some kind of basic Pistol and CCW choices, so I have an excuse to convert up a 'custom designed Kill Team' - not just by myself, but the Skitarii's Forgeworld having specially equipped Maniples for infiltration when the Spindlelimbs are stretched.
Maybe I am being harsh to Wayland in this instance, there is always a chance that they were let down, this can happen with pre orders I guess.
I assumed they knew they had made a mistake by offering the credit.
Personally, I would never sell anything in the shops I have been involved with, until I had the items at hand.
I have not used them for a while now and when my brother told me had had made the order at noon on saturday, I told him he would not get it !
You're absolutely not being too harsh on Wayland, they do this regularly and the way they operate is the key reason brick and mortar shops loose massive amounts of business.
They hold small amounts of stock but have everything on their website set as in stock, when you order it, they order it. And not even on express delivery.
My local shop told me that SWA was capped per retailer... multiple times, Wayland knew this, and yet unlike decent honest retailers like Element who sold their assignment and then took the product off sale, they added no stock counter intentionally because they knew that there would be a small number of the customers duped into ordering who would go along with the "when its back in stock we'll have it sent to you asap".
Vorian wrote:The problem I'm imagining with just using Necro advancement is that these gangs all come out of the gate pretty strong.
Necromunda starts to break down once gangs are so good that they start shooting people off the table - so the limit on advances keeps the power level around what you'd get in the middle of a campaign. Between starter gang uselessness and end campaign Gods of destruction.
Well that's what we need to consider before implementing any changes. It really doesn't help that our only proper access so far to the SW:A rules has been the local GW store copy
Vorian wrote:Also, cool conversion Cant wait to start cutting my scouts up!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:That Chaos Cultist is luvverly
Thanks!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:consider my Skitarii. Basic troops don't get many options at all. Essentially they either get a Rad Carbine or a Galvanic Rifle. No options for pistols or close combat weapons. Me, I'd like to open up some kind of basic Pistol and CCW choices, so I have an excuse to convert up a 'custom designed Kill Team' - not just by myself, but the Skitarii's Forgeworld having specially equipped Maniples for infiltration when the Spindlelimbs are stretched.
Yeah I see what you mean. Seems strange that the rangers don't have access to pistols and even stranger that it seems only the Alpha has access to the Hand-to-hand equipment list and yet two items on the list are marked as "Alpha-only". Possibly an oversight, wouldn't be too egregious imho to houserule access.
Also,
The box I thought was coming for my brother was ordered from Wayland, and they cancelled the order yesterday, typical wayland games, selling stuff they do not have.
That kind of is how preorders work... It's hardly Wayland's fault that GW couldn't supply retailer orders in full.
Nope, a pre order is when you sell something you know you will be able to sell, it is poor form to sell do pre orders if you might not be able to get your hands on the goods in question.
It was good that they offered him £5 store credit, but he seems pretty let down and wont be buying from there again because of this.
I'm split on this one.
On one hand, it's very much on GW (I know, me criticising GW!). They failed to predict the demand, despite having fed the hype machine. And now, they can't fulfil the demand.
On the other? This is Wayland, who don't exactly have the best of reputations when it comes to fulfilling customer orders.
In this case, it's impossible to tell which party is most at fault. It could simply be Wayland being Wayland and accepting orders they know they don't have stock for (hypothetically - ordering 100 from GW, but accepting 250 orders). It could be GW promising the 250, but only being able to provide 100. 50/50 fault here.
Right, back to conversions and that!
That Chaos Cultist is luvverly - but consider my Skitarii. Basic troops don't get many options at all. Essentially they either get a Rad Carbine or a Galvanic Rifle. No options for pistols or close combat weapons. Me, I'd like to open up some kind of basic Pistol and CCW choices, so I have an excuse to convert up a 'custom designed Kill Team' - not just by myself, but the Skitarii's Forgeworld having specially equipped Maniples for infiltration when the Spindlelimbs are stretched.
GW had ample opportunity to tell us before launch of pre orders it was a limited or splash release. They decided not to. We have been trying all week to get a clear answer from them which we got Wednesday afternoon, and sent out the email Thursday morning.. GW are more than capable of seeing the pre order numbers from retailers (its the reason they ask for them), see there is a shortfall in the numbers produced and get some more into production, communicating a delay for later batches.. I am wary of getting into what motives there could be for artificially limiting supply of a product. And regarding another post regarding giving some store credit away, we are not to blame here, but we feel that customers should have something by way of apology and thanks, it isn't their fault.
If other retailers want to limit pre orders of a product when they have not been informed its a limited product, then that is up to them. The frustrating thing is that this could have been avoided if GW had just said it was a splash release day 1 and told us the absolute maximum we would get, ever. They didn't.
Ah, the FLGS in the next town is a multiple University town within walking distance of those places so they get rather huge hobby stock.
Confirmed the shortage may contributed slightly to them: some 50 SWA boxes they are sitting on for release tomorrow.
Got my reservation in.
Some $120 Canadian they are selling it for ($160 on the GW site).
I have all the Necromunda releases from way back when so I am interested in looking at the differences.
I heard that having a high attack stat may make that model a victim to fumble by increasing your odds.
Falling off, jams, grenade blast, weapon strength bonuses... it is all there, I am looking forward to this.
I agree that this game just begs an Inquisition war-band taking on a gene stealer cult or a bunch of cultists with some daemons: may have to create/modify some rules to suit.
To think I was distracted for a bit and may have missed this release and may have had no easy opportunity to get this game.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: This is Wayland, who don't exactly have the best of reputations when it comes to fulfilling customer orders.
Totally unfair - Wayland offers what amounts to "special orders" so they can serve customers who want items that they cannot profitably keep in stock. This amounts to there being long waits sometimes, because Wayland has to then actually obtain said items. It must be really, really irritating to Wayland to offer this service - something that other major online retailers don't do - only to have people turn it around on them. And the notion that Wayland is responsible for not being able to fulfill its Shadow War pre-orders is absurd considering this is clearly a GWsnafu.
This has all happened before on a much smaller scale with the GS Cult dice and the Skaven BB dice. GW never bothered to tell anyone that the dice would be limited and lots of people who pre-ordered through retailers got jilted. BTWGW's response on the dice thing was to mark the latest BB set (for Dwarfs) Temp OOS - they have never yet come back into stock, AFAIK.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: This is Wayland, who don't exactly have the best of reputations when it comes to fulfilling customer orders.
Totally unfair - Wayland offers what amounts to "special orders" so they can serve customers who want items that they cannot profitably keep in stock. This amounts to there being long waits sometimes, because Wayland has to then actually obtain said items. It must be really, really irritating to Wayland to offer this service - something that other major online retailers don't do - only to have people turn it around on them. And the notion that Wayland is responsible for not being able to fulfill its Shadow War pre-orders is absurd considering this is clearly a GWsnafu.
This has all happened before on a much smaller scale with the GS Cult dice and the Skaven BB dice. GW never bothered to tell anyone that the dice would be limited and lots of people who pre-ordered through retailers got jilted. BTWGW's response on the dice thing was to mark the latest BB set (for Dwarfs) Temp OOS - they have never yet come back into stock, AFAIK.
This.
If we're going this way, I've already made several orders with Wayland and none of them had any issue. Zero.
Vorian wrote: Nope, I outlined multiple ways, one of which was requiring 1 box.
What I was refuting was that a group would need a box per player to play, which is obviously nonsense.
Depending on your circumstances you need a minimum of 0 or 1.
I need 0 (like plenty of people) and some people will insist they need 1 (even though all they actually need to do is wait a little bit).
Nope, you were just wrong. Why not drop it, or admit it and move on.
I support Vorian here. It takes the most minor research plus the free downloads that GW themsleves last saturday provided to play the game free...now...
And when I say minor I mean..type necromunda rules pdf into google and its the first link.
True, technically you cannot use orks or space marines without the new box.
On one hand, it's very much on GW (I know, me criticising GW!). They failed to predict the demand, despite having fed the hype machine. And now, they can't fulfil the demand.
On the other? This is Wayland, who don't exactly have the best of reputations when it comes to fulfilling customer orders.
In this case, it's impossible to tell which party is most at fault. It could simply be Wayland being Wayland and accepting orders they know they don't have stock for (hypothetically - ordering 100 from GW, but accepting 250 orders). It could be GW promising the 250, but only being able to provide 100. 50/50 fault here.
Right, back to conversions and that!
That Chaos Cultist is luvverly - but consider my Skitarii. Basic troops don't get many options at all. Essentially they either get a Rad Carbine or a Galvanic Rifle. No options for pistols or close combat weapons. Me, I'd like to open up some kind of basic Pistol and CCW choices, so I have an excuse to convert up a 'custom designed Kill Team' - not just by myself, but the Skitarii's Forgeworld having specially equipped Maniples for infiltration when the Spindlelimbs are stretched.
Maybe I am being harsh to Wayland in this instance, there is always a chance that they were let down, this can happen with pre orders I guess.
I assumed they knew they had made a mistake by offering the credit.
Personally, I would never sell anything in the shops I have been involved with, until I had the items at hand.
I have not used them for a while now and when my brother told me had had made the order at noon on saturday, I told him he would not get it !
You're absolutely not being too harsh on Wayland, they do this regularly and the way they operate is the key reason brick and mortar shops loose massive amounts of business.
They hold small amounts of stock but have everything on their website set as in stock, when you order it, they order it. And not even on express delivery.
My local shop told me that SWA was capped per retailer... multiple times, Wayland knew this, and yet unlike decent honest retailers like Element who sold their assignment and then took the product off sale, they added no stock counter intentionally because they knew that there would be a small number of the customers duped into ordering who would go along with the "when its back in stock we'll have it sent to you asap".
they're gutless.
Sorry but you are incorrect. Our latest accounts show approx £1.4m of stock on hand. Our stock levels on our site, are the available stock levels in our primary warehouse. As in stock that is free and available and not allocated. SWA was capped for the first weeks orders. It wasntr identified as a limited or splash release.
Just got mine, not opened it yet but the box is fething huge!
Also heard that al though GW online has sold out and more than likely GW shop stock, there is a large quantity ready for distribution routes so more may well come available through FLGs. Make of that what you will* but my supplier is confident here can get plenty more.
*this is heresay only albeit from Someone I trust.
Such a mess on GW's part. My local GW (actually Warhammer) shop has confirmed on Facebook that they won't be getting any copies at all in stock on Saturday. Hopefully this whole debacle makes them reconsider their strategy around limited releases. Also, on a semi-related note, why on earth isn't Space Hulk a core game in GW's inventory? I know they keep conveniently 'finding' more stock, but as one of the most popular games they've ever released I don't understand why it isn't generally available.
nurgle5 wrote: I don't think you need house rules to encourage conversions though, since Kill Teams only need a few models, the game itself is a great outlet to flex some creative muscles. For example, my Chaos Cultist with Autopistol, which was a bit more hassle to make than just using one out of the box! --
Agreed.
One of the things I always loved about Necromunda (and older versions of Kill Team) was that the small units involved really encouraged quite a bit of creativity.
Given that the "new edition" expands the range of factions and figures available, I expect to see some fun stuff once people get into it.
richstrach wrote: Such a mess on GW's part. My local GW (actually Warhammer) shop has confirmed on Facebook that they won't be getting any copies at all in stock on Saturday. Hopefully this whole debacle makes them reconsider their strategy around limited releases. Also, on a semi-related note, why on earth isn't Space Hulk a core game in GW's inventory? I know they keep conveniently 'finding' more stock, but as one of the most popular games they've ever released I don't understand why it isn't generally available.
Is that the Edinburgh one by any chance? Your post made me check and they said the same thing.
I know it might seem early given few of us have actually played this iteration, but hey.
Me, I'm kind of tempted to mix up equipment availability, if only to encourage conversions and otherwise unique Kill Teams down my local club - which for me is at least half the point of a game at this scale, no?
richstrach wrote: Such a mess on GW's part. My local GW (actually Warhammer) shop has confirmed on Facebook that they won't be getting any copies at all in stock on Saturday. Hopefully this whole debacle makes them reconsider their strategy around limited releases. Also, on a semi-related note, why on earth isn't Space Hulk a core game in GW's inventory? I know they keep conveniently 'finding' more stock, but as one of the most popular games they've ever released I don't understand why it isn't generally available.
Is that the Edinburgh one by any chance? Your post made me check and they said the same thing.
Yeah, the Edinburgh one. They're still running a league though, so I'll try and join in with that next week!
I'm really ticked off about this. I shot off an email to GW about how disappointed I am that one of their own stores has none of these. The store also said that it might be coming back because it changed to "Temporarily out of stock" so apparently corporate isn't talking to the stores.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That Chaos Cultist is luvverly - but consider my Skitarii. Basic troops don't get many options at all. Essentially they either get a Rad Carbine or a Galvanic Rifle. No options for pistols or close combat weapons. Me, I'd like to open up some kind of basic Pistol and CCW choices, so I have an excuse to convert up a 'custom designed Kill Team' - not just by myself, but the Skitarii's Forgeworld having specially equipped Maniples for infiltration when the Spindlelimbs are stretched.
I'm thinking of things like having some running, some advancing with rifle ready, some firing. One throwing a grenade, one reloading. perhaps one holding his rifle and popping off a snap shot with his pistol. There's plenty of things I could do to make a dozen unique troopers, even if they've all got the same gun.
House rules? I'd like to play a couple of ordinary games to find out what I don't like, first. Kill Teams for Sororitas, Arbites and Inquisition are good shouts if GW don't do them first (I've got the 2nd edition rules for all of those anyway!). Likewise Kroot. And the Tanith 1st and Only and Last Chancers.
The underhive "weather" conditions are something worth bringing into this.
As far as a campaign goes, the Hunt for von Strab would be a good one. Or escorting refugees away from Ork columns. Or Imperial forces hunting for Ghazgkull's lieutenants.
I know it might seem early given few of us have actually played this iteration, but hey.
Me, I'm kind of tempted to mix up equipment availability, if only to encourage conversions and otherwise unique Kill Teams down my local club - which for me is at least half the point of a game at this scale, no?
As i'd mentioned we ran Shadow War as instruction for two "campaigns" worth (players to 15 caches). They made for fun single day events, but since we've gone full Necromunda. We're using the current Shadow War rules, and skill tables (as both are improved over Necromunda), but Munda's injury, exp, territories, rare-trade, etc. So far it has made a much, much better game.
richstrach wrote: Such a mess on GW's part. My local GW (actually Warhammer) shop has confirmed on Facebook that they won't be getting any copies at all in stock on Saturday. Hopefully this whole debacle makes them reconsider their strategy around limited releases. Also, on a semi-related note, why on earth isn't Space Hulk a core game in GW's inventory? I know they keep conveniently 'finding' more stock, but as one of the most popular games they've ever released I don't understand why it isn't generally available.
Is that the Edinburgh one by any chance? Your post made me check and they said the same thing.
Yeah, the Edinburgh one. They're still running a league though, so I'll try and join in with that next week!
It's still under embargo, but a copy has been secured. My store got its full order plus the event pack, so thankfully not every independent stockist is out of luck.
I just massively lucked out. Not naming the store, but the store near where I work got one of the GW organized play kits for Shadow War Armageddon and has no intention whatsoever of running an event. They sell lots of stuff, but people don't tend to game there. Instead, most people game at a local gaming club. The guy running the place sold me the rule book, rules quick reference, two punch out sheets of tokens, a tear pad of kill team roster sheets and a stack of special operative reference cards for 25 USD. I have templates and scatter/artillery dice at home, so I'm golden. So glad I stopped by during my lunch break. Right place at the right time!
I can't wait to go home and put together a Skitarii Kill Team now that I have the rules.
First thing I can see getting house ruled in our home is giving Necrons access to the praetorian equipment. Nothing seems to inherently broken, and sicne they've already got Immortals as troop choices, only difference is making them more choppy instead of shooty. For now we'll just use Immortal equipment prices as a base.
Next up is to figure out how to get Kabalites on the table. Maybe use Craftworld Eldar as a base and pull some of the values out of the Wych gear?
Local FLGS has the new boxes of them for about 15 new. My kinda prices!
I still don't get the difference between an armor save and an invulnerable save. Are they mutually exclusive or different names for the same thing? Just my unfamiliarity with the rules showing.
From what people have indicated, they're exclusive in SWA. In 2nd edition 40K invulnerables were either in place of normal armour, or were fields/magic barriers which rolled before armour.
i.e.
I shoot a bolt gun at you - you have a displacer field (4+ invulnerable save, which scatters you if it works)...you roll the displacer roll first. If you fail this you still have your armour (if you had any) which suffers from normal save modifiers.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: First thing I can see getting house ruled in our home is giving Necrons access to the praetorian equipment. Nothing seems to inherently broken, and sicne they've already got Immortals as troop choices, only difference is making them more choppy instead of shooty. For now we'll just use Immortal equipment prices as a base.
Next up is to figure out how to get Kabalites on the table. Maybe use Craftworld Eldar as a base and pull some of the values out of the Wych gear?
Local FLGS has the new boxes of them for about 15 new. My kinda prices!
I still don't get the difference between an armor save and an invulnerable save. Are they mutually exclusive or different names for the same thing? Just my unfamiliarity with the rules showing.
Nothing wrong with house rules in a game like this, but it may be a bit of wasted effort if GW gets more official rules for new factions soon. They stated they are working on them, so we might have them sooner than people expect. If they can drive a lot of sales for more basic troop kits that probably aren't normally fast sellers, they will probably try to get rules out ASAP while interest in SWA is at its peak interest level.
aka_mythos wrote:Even if it was an underestimation the point of that specific trade show is to drive up the interest of retailers so they will carry the product lines. There is effectively nothing here for retailers to carry. No gaming retailer wants to sell just one of something, they want recursiveness.
I'm not sure that's the case. It seems like many retailers want something new to constantly be coming in to sell to people. There's always a new hot board game, a new Magic the Gathering or Pokemon release, a new edition of a game, a new codex. We also know that GW's products sell the most copies within a few months of their release.
Any store that got in (and many who did not) on this at all is going to now have the impression that people *really* want GW's stuff. They are going to get people coming in, calling them, emailing them, contacting them via social media, etc,. asking about this game.
So what are these store owners going to do the next time GW goes into the industry promotional channels and on social media and...
... starts talking about a new edition of 40k?
The typical store allocations have been only 4 sets, so unless you live in an area with multiple stores very few people will be able to have a dedicated group and the longevity of that small a group will be jeopardized by Ian inability to grow the group.
I shoot a bolt gun at you - you have a displacer field (4+ invulnerable save, which scatters you if it works)...you roll the displacer roll first. If you fail this you still have your armour (if you had any) which suffers from normal save modifiers.
Displacer Field was a 3+. Conversion Field was the 4+.
For even more fun, to begin with you could actually put multiple invulnerable saves on a single model, limited only by how many Wargear cards the model had access to. So against that boltgun shot, I could be taking a 2+ Power Field save, then trying with my 3+ Displacer Field, then my 4+ Conversion Field... and then my armour.
About midway through 2nd edition, GW issued an errata limiting invulnerable saves to one per model... upsetting quite a few Eldar players, as Farseers had one built in, and many players gave them an extra one for good measure. IIRC, that was around the same time they also limited how many copies you could take of certain Wargear cards in your army.
Visited the local WH Store to sign up for the Shadow War league. The manager was giving away token sheets with a purchase of 25 USD or more of certain products (basically, anything you could use in Shadow War). The store was only allotted three copies. From what I understand, the LGS was able to order eight copies - but I can't confirm that they got all eight. I wished the WH Store manager good luck with customers tomorrow ... going to be a tough day ... The manager also told me HQ did not mention that the box was a limited release until last Saturday.
The rulebook included in the boxed set does not contain a barcode on the back (or inside the cover for that matter), so chances of GW selling it in this carnation physically on its own are quite small.
AndrewGPaul wrote: As far as a campaign goes, the Hunt for von Strab would be a good one. Or escorting refugees away from Ork columns. Or Imperial forces hunting for Ghazgkull's lieutenants.
This is ultimately why I like all this. Hypothetically, had the rules been terrible, or if the campaign rules are weaker that the original Necromunda, this whole release would still be a good thing because it helps generate idea and inspire people. I mean, someone 20 years ago could have thought of playing Necromunda on Armageddon with added Ork gangs to conduct one of those campaigns. However, these ideas come about so much easier with a release like this.
BrookM wrote: The rulebook included in the boxed set does not contain a barcode on the back (or inside the cover for that matter), so chances of GW selling it in this carnation physically on its own are quite small.
My local posted up this evening that they have a LIMITED QUANTITY (caps and all) and if we wanted one we would need to be there at opening.
As he's usually quite up front about how much stock is there on a normal occasion, I take this to not be a good sign. Usually its 'I only have 10 of the new whatever shiney' or' We have the last three sat here, get them while stocks last'.
As its €60 in travel to get there, and I may not even be able to get a copy, I'm thinking its not worth the risk. Gw probably dont care about the €105 I would have spent on the game, nor the extra €100-200 I probably would have spent on top of that buying up stuff to go with it. Nor the extra €8 I'd spent buying white dwarf (as I always forget, and have to go back for it after paying the first time around)
But not picking white dwarf up this month means I probably wont end up pre-ordering the new overlords (I was looking forward to seeing them in white dwarf and seeing if I could use them for my skaven in Inq28 or even my chaos dwarfs)
All in all not being able to walk in and pick a game up has probably put paid to me spending €500, if not closer to €1000 (birthday money coming soon) over the next couple of months.
Again, probably pocket change for GW, but I cant be the only one, and it will have a knock on effect with my spending for the rest of the year now, and its surly even only several people are like me its got to add up to enough for GW to notice.
I shoot a bolt gun at you - you have a displacer field (4+ invulnerable save, which scatters you if it works)...you roll the displacer roll first. If you fail this you still have your armour (if you had any) which suffers from normal save modifiers.
Displacer Field was a 3+. Conversion Field was the 4+.
For even more fun, to begin with you could actually put multiple invulnerable saves on a single model, limited only by how many Wargear cards the model had access to. So against that boltgun shot, I could be taking a 2+ Power Field save, then trying with my 3+ Displacer Field, then my 4+ Conversion Field... and then my armour.
About midway through 2nd edition, GW issued an errata limiting invulnerable saves to one per model... upsetting quite a few Eldar players, as Farseers had one built in, and many players gave them an extra one for good measure. IIRC, that was around the same time they also limited how many copies you could take of certain Wargear cards in your army.
They stopped the multi layered inv saves in second ed in WD. I used to take a Farseer with displacer field, gave him a lot more survivability, though he dio die a few times. You also cant layer fields in the DH roleplays etc.
RexHavoc wrote: My local posted up this evening that they have a LIMITED QUANTITY (caps and all) and if we wanted one we would need to be there at opening.
As he's usually quite up front about how much stock is there on a normal occasion, I take this to not be a good sign. Usually its 'I only have 10 of the new whatever shiney' or' We have the last three sat here, get them while stocks last'.
As its €60 in travel to get there, and I may not even be able to get a copy, I'm thinking its not worth the risk. Gw probably dont care about the €105 I would have spent on the game, nor the extra €100-200 I probably would have spent on top of that buying up stuff to go with it. Nor the extra €8 I'd spent buying white dwarf (as I always forget, and have to go back for it after paying the first time around)
But not picking white dwarf up this month means I probably wont end up pre-ordering the new overlords (I was looking forward to seeing them in white dwarf and seeing if I could use them for my skaven in Inq28 or even my chaos dwarfs)
All in all not being able to walk in and pick a game up has probably put paid to me spending €500, if not closer to €1000 (birthday money coming soon) over the next couple of months.
Again, probably pocket change for GW, but I cant be the only one, and it will have a knock on effect with my spending for the rest of the year now, and its surly even only several people are like me its got to add up to enough for GW to notice.
This strikes me as somewhat of an overreaction. "I couldn't get one game so I won't buy all these things for a totally unconnected game." Yeah, that just doesn't follow.
Maybe it is an overreaction but it is also quite understandable that the snafu related to the introductory box would at least temporarily sour people's perception of Shadow War generally.
Printing a physical rulebook would probably go a long way to fixing that.
Local WH store manager confirmed to me that the digital edition will be out next weekend.
BrookM wrote: The rulebook included in the boxed set does not contain a barcode on the back (or inside the cover for that matter), so chances of GW selling it in this carnation physically on its own are quite small.
OMG! No barcode! Whatever will GW do?
Spoiler:
I used to be subscribed to an illustration monthly magazine from the UK.. the special "Subscriber Only" issue had no barcode. All they have to do is put it in a polybag that has a UPC or those sticker labels like you've shown.. I really don't understand how some people are so quick to rush to ideas that this or that is impossible. If there's a buck to be made, nothing is impossible.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Did you know the City store in Sydney, the largest GW store in Australia's largest city, had an allocation of 5 whole boxes. That's right. Five.
Cleatus wrote: If you really want one, the Warhammer store in Des Moines, Iowa has 12.
RazorEdge wrote: Over the next few weeks, the Warhammer Community team will be attending several events around the world, and we’ll be showing off some of the incredible new releases coming in the next few months, as well as a few projects the studios have been working on.
My, how things have changed since Kirby left.
He was the previous CO right?
All I hear about the guy he sounded like a fething nutjob.
There was a time not too long ago when GW staff / reps would have to flat out deny upcoming releases due that weekend, despite photos being posted online several weeks in advance. The change of priorities has been astounding... a games company that actually has fun with their customers, rather than treating their products like military secrets. Who'da thought that would work?
I always wondered why they thought hiding releases was a good idea. Like, do they think it draws hype?
Another issue I have is that pre-orders go up for every region before America, but it seems like they don't allot a real amount of units to provide for us. Plus, they consistently seem to under-produce all of the products that should be OBVIOUSLY popular.
For those of you who were having a gak-fit about it the other day, the 3D pics areupnow.
Honestly the real star of these three is the Galvanic Magnavent. The Alchomite Stack has some options but really the other two can't work without the Magnavent.
H.B.M.C. wrote: For those of you who were having a gak-fit about it the other day, the 3D pics areupnow.
Honestly the real star of these three is the Galvanic Magnavent. The Alchomite Stack has some options but really the other two can't work without the Magnavent.
Jesus that terrain is overpriced. You could order a full set to cover a 6+square foot board for about the same as the three pieces.
So, from the looks of it, Shadow War Armageddon does not come with the complete Galvanic Magnavent kit. That kit include one sprue from the Stacks kit, but the boxed set only appears to contain one copy of that sprue. Oh well, I might get a separate copy of the Stacks kit for more terrain.
the box set comes with everything you could make that's they are selling in single sets. It just better to buy the box set over and over if you want terrain, or split it with someone who just wants rules and models
Got my hands on a copy from one of my local stores tonight (yes, selling before embargo). The main store I go to already had all theirs pre-ordered, so went to the one I don't like and bought one that he was upcharging $30 more. While I was pretty ticked, wasn't a huge issue as within 3 hours I've sold everything but the rulebook, tokens, and standard scouts (all I wanted from the set) for over $200 to people I know, so made a reasonable profit.
Well, good luck everyone who's going to try and get a copy this morning! Here's hoping the digital version of the rulebook is released this weekend too.
I was lucky enough to secure one from goblin games. However just had a email to say it is in the post. When I checked the tracking I said it could take 3 working days.
on the New Zeland Website, it looks like the next pre-orders are for Made to order on OOP blood bowl teams. Abit disappointed, I was hoping they would be releasing the stand alone terrain kits hot on the heels of the new box set.
Bull0 wrote: since someone was asking earlier: finally got a dispatch email from GWUK, 0923
Did you get it sent to the shop or to your home? Last time I preordered something I got it delivered to my home only to find this means they don't even dispatch it until the following Monday (GW struggling with the concept of PREordering obviously). This time I had it sent to the store to ensure I would get it today but only just received the dispatch notice this morning so not sure if that means it will actually be there...!
Bull0 wrote: since someone was asking earlier: finally got a dispatch email from GWUK, 0923
Did you get it sent to the shop or to your home? Last time I preordered something I got it delivered to my home only to find this means they don't even dispatch it until the following Monday (GW struggling with the concept of PREordering obviously). This time I had it sent to the store to ensure I would get it today but only just received the dispatch notice this morning so not sure if that means it will actually be there...!
Preorders from GW get dispatched on the Saturday, no matter where you get it delivered to, afaik. Part of the reason I never preorder anything directly.
Bull0 wrote: since someone was asking earlier: finally got a dispatch email from GWUK, 0923
Did you get it sent to the shop or to your home? Last time I preordered something I got it delivered to my home only to find this means they don't even dispatch it until the following Monday (GW struggling with the concept of PREordering obviously). This time I had it sent to the store to ensure I would get it today but only just received the dispatch notice this morning so not sure if that means it will actually be there...!
Preorders from GW get dispatched on the Saturday, no matter where you get it delivered to, afaik. Part of the reason I never preorder anything directly.
I had the first new-format WD pre-ordered and it arrived at the store by the release date. Also, from their website:
"Pre-ordering guarantees that you’ll be among the first to get your hands on the hottest new books and miniatures. If you order at any point on the pre-order weekend, and choose to have your products delivered to your nearest Games Workshop Store, then they will be ready and waiting for you on the day of launch, the following Saturday."
RexHavoc wrote: My local posted up this evening that they have a LIMITED QUANTITY (caps and all) and if we wanted one we would need to be there at opening.
As he's usually quite up front about how much stock is there on a normal occasion, I take this to not be a good sign. Usually its 'I only have 10 of the new whatever shiney' or' We have the last three sat here, get them while stocks last'.
As its €60 in travel to get there, and I may not even be able to get a copy, I'm thinking its not worth the risk. Gw probably dont care about the €105 I would have spent on the game, nor the extra €100-200 I probably would have spent on top of that buying up stuff to go with it. Nor the extra €8 I'd spent buying white dwarf (as I always forget, and have to go back for it after paying the first time around)
But not picking white dwarf up this month means I probably wont end up pre-ordering the new overlords (I was looking forward to seeing them in white dwarf and seeing if I could use them for my skaven in Inq28 or even my chaos dwarfs)
All in all not being able to walk in and pick a game up has probably put paid to me spending €500, if not closer to €1000 (birthday money coming soon) over the next couple of months.
Again, probably pocket change for GW, but I cant be the only one, and it will have a knock on effect with my spending for the rest of the year now, and its surly even only several people are like me its got to add up to enough for GW to notice.
This strikes me as somewhat of an overreaction. "I couldn't get one game so I won't buy all these things for a totally unconnected game." Yeah, that just doesn't follow.
Not really on overreaction. This isn't a 'I couldn't buy one thing so I refuse to buy another, that'll teach them'.
I dont really need the new overlord models. However, they do look pretty cool, and I could be tempted in to buying them, sitting down with white dwarf and having a good look at them can often lead to buying things I had no other plans of buying. Its not totally unrelated either- as I said in my post I'd thought about using them for my Inq28 skaven. Not going to GW this weekend means I wont be buying white dwarf, and I wont be 'lead' into buying new models I dont really need. Sure, I might see them online once they are out and about in the public, but by then I will probably have some other project on the go, and I just wont bother with them at all.
But even with an unconnected game, but not being able to get me into the store this weekend, will probably lost them a sale of an AoS box as well, as even though they are unconnected, I tend to pick a box or two up of other things when going in to GW, to add to the rainy day pile. I dont always plan for what these things are, and sometimes they are just a random model that takes my fancy on the day. I cant be the only person who buys spur of the moment stuff!
And its not a case of just me just buying all these odd 'unconnected' things another day. If I never went into GW again, I'd still have a lifetime of minis for AoS to paint and use, as I'm such a slow painter, and tend to paint warbands, that a box of minis can last me years before its used up. Buying in to GW new 'exciting' product of the week is what keeps me going in there right now, and what has me buying the slightly older stuff as well.
No, for sure not the only one, but "I couldn't spend €100 so you don't get my €1000, GW!" is a fairy hollow cry, if you're into the hobby. We all know you'll overspend again another day. We all do!
JohnnyHell wrote: No, for sure not the only one, but "I couldn't spend €100 so you don't get my €1000, GW!" is a fairy hollow cry, if you're into the hobby. We all know you'll overspend again another day. We all do!
For me, I'm in the hobby but not playing any GW games (and haven't since Necru). This was the first GW game since then that I was really tempted to pick up and I tend to go a bit overboard with games so would have ended up with at least a couple more factions (looking at cultists, grey knights and those imperial tech guys) and a ton of extra terrain. With the lack of boxed copies of the game it has stopped it from being a spontaneous purchase as I would now need to wait for a physical rule book reprint (don't have a pad and my PC is at other end of house to gaming space), but multiple troop boxes to match get the box set troops, track down dice and templates and spend a lot more on terrain. That's too much hassle to tempt me in now compared to that single easy to grab box.
I got down to my local GW for opening and managed to get the only copy they had on general sale.
For me the terrain is worth the price alone.
I was suprised that all the store copies had been spoken for, I've tried to reserve things before when they've sold out on the Webster and always been told no. It's nice to think you'd at least have some sort of chance if you head down to a store for opening tome on release day
I get the feeling that GW wanted to sell out of the SW box quickly.
The discount was very good compared to buying the contents separately, and the artificial scarcity drums up interest for the individual terrain pieces.
Personally the way that they have handled this release has disappointed me greatly.
My local asked me if I wanted a copy when I popped in last night. But I don't need the terrain, game doesn't have rules for my army, and he only got like two copies in. I told him I didn't have much use for it; save it for someone who wanted it more. Maybe if a copy is still around in a week I'll pick it up. Maybe.
Agree with sentiment here. I am disappointed with how the release was handled.
It sold out immediately, which is something they cannot control. Their response has been tepid at best and bait-and-switch at worst (here's individual pieces at premium prices and we will release the rules sometime in the future, but no boxed set).
My gaming group was interested. None of us could get it. Will that curtail us buying the future? For many, maybe all, yes.
Because their is no ebook yet, maybe this was intended
limited box so that people are desperate and buy the more expensive single terrain boxes
and no ebook because if there would be one it would be easy to put it on the web and people would just download it instead of craving for their later re-printed version
Sheck2 wrote: Agree with sentiment here. I am disappointed with how the release was handled.
It sold out immediately, which is something they cannot control. Their response has been tepid at best and bait-and-switch at worst (here's individual pieces at premium prices and we will release the rules sometime in the future, but no boxed set).
My gaming group was interested. None of us could get it. Will that curtail us buying the future? For many, maybe all, yes.
Does GW care? Is it already popular enough?
The individual terrain was going to come out anyway, that's not really bait and switch.
So the game seems to be set several years after the 3rd war for Armageddon, with kill teams being sent into Hive Archeron, which is currently under siege by imperial forces trying to take the hive back. Wouldn't this put it in the 42nd Millennium?
Vorian wrote: They massively underestimated the demand and got it wrong. There is no need for any conspiracy theories that make no sense.
I don't think it's a case of "underestimating"... I don't think they made an estimate at all. I think they said we're only making "X" amount of kits without any regard to potential demand. They clearly aren't in any sort of mindset to "sell as many as we can." They need to do market research.
stonehorse wrote: I imagine a lot of people are going to keep their box set unopened and sell it on ebay at an inflated price.
If GW releases rulebook separately, the boxed set will not sell at inflated price unless someone wants to pay premium for cardboard tokens and red templates.
I picked up a set from FLGS today and have two more coming in mail next week. Plan for weekend: drown myself in plastic scenery with AoSGT Heat 2 on Twitch on the background. Possibly D6 beers as well.
aka_mythos wrote:I don't think it's a case of "underestimating"... I don't think they made an estimate at all. I think they said we're only making "X" amount of kits without any regard to potential demand. They clearly aren't in any sort of mindset to "sell as many as we can."
Of course they made an estimate. You don't bring a product to market without looking at how other products similar to it have sold. And you certainly don't engage in something as capital intensive as the design and tooling for a plastic kit without thinking about how many you have to sell to make your investment back and maintain needed margins.
GW hasn't been in "sell as many as we can" mode for well over a decade. They've switched their business model to be about less volume sold at a higher margin.
The end result is that they got all their tooling costs covered and made 100% of their expected initial launch sales revenue for their new terrain kits. Now if they want to put the rules up as a epub for $20, they'll make some more money there and then they'll also sell some normal 40k kits and some more of the new terrain kits at the lower marginal cost of producing the sprues and boxes.
Could they have made more money by either increasing the price or increasing the size of the production run? Yes. Absolutely. But it would have involved increasing their risk. At a higher price, they might have hit the tipping point and the product could have bombed. Had they made more, they could have been stuck with extra stock and not hit their margin goals for a new product launch.
They got the numbers wrong in terms of the demand that's out there. In terms of what they were willing to risk, I imagine the number was precisely right.
People do want a change when it comes to 40k. A different way of playing miniature games in the 40k universe. This desire will be fully met with no production shortages when it comes to the new edition of 40k.
Vorian wrote: They massively underestimated the demand and got it wrong. There is no need for any conspiracy theories that make no sense.
I don't think it's a case of "underestimating"... I don't think they made an estimate at all. I think they said we're only making "X" amount of kits without any regard to potential demand. They clearly aren't in any sort of mindset to "sell as many as we can." They need to do market research.
I dunno; we have been previously told that it sounds fairly otiose.
As a marketing strategy, it does increase sales. I had previously been on the fence about picking one up; I can paint skirmish teams up before the ADD sets in and thus like that size of battle but I'm already okay on terrain and have no need of further Orks nor Scouts. However, seeing that the set would likely be in (artificially) short supply made it more attractive to acquire. Coupled with the "discount" on the terrain I did ultimately snag one of the three copies on offer at the store. Going from "eh, maybe" to a "eh, sure" means that aspect of the plan did work.
The obvious fail of course is that if they made X units, they clearly could have made probably 2X, if not 3X or more and still had the same artificial scarcity while making substantially more money. I also really, really dislike that it does promote second-hand selling on. I eyed the other copies at the store and pondered flipping them for a moment (you know, capitalism and all that) but in the end decided I wouldn't like someone else clearing out the store's stock before I got there, so I wasn't going to do that to them. That GW set up a system that encourages that sort of behavior is actually probably the worst part about their plan. GW can dumb about leaving money on the table all they want; it's their business. When they set into motion events where hobbyists harm each other, probably something has gone hideously awry. I'm sure this has happened with other limited releases in the past (e.g. - OG Space Hulk), but with the amount of actual promotion GW did for this game it just seems far sillier than anything I can recall.
aka_mythos wrote:I don't think it's a case of "underestimating"... I don't think they made an estimate at all. I think they said we're only making "X" amount of kits without any regard to potential demand. They clearly aren't in any sort of mindset to "sell as many as we can."
Of course they made an estimate. You don't bring a product to market without looking at how other products similar to it have sold. And you certainly don't engage in something as capital intensive as the design and tooling for a plastic kit without thinking about how many you have to sell to make your investment back and maintain needed margins.
I think GWs manufacturing runs pretty close to capacity and I think that's the reason they can't or won't give us more of certain things. That there volume is dictated by production line capacity in given time frames, particularly now that they've significantly reduced their warehouse space in favor of simply running production lines more frequently. The last 2 years has seen so many products sell-out in pre-order. So if they are "estimating" they suck at it.
So what sort of market research would have clued GW in that they needed to make more copies of this product up front?
Please bear in mind that it has to somehow be more convincing than their existing sales data for their series of stand alone games.
They got their assessment of the demand totally wrong, but what market research plan would have corrected that in a way that would justified tying up capital (and production time) in a larger production run?
In retrospect it would have obviously been the right move, but "market research" isn't the ability to travel back in time or know the future.
Their preorders aren't up to the task because they come too late for a product like this. The books and tokens aren't manufactured in house, so they can't just turn on machine and make more last minute. I think they have box printing and making machines, and they certainly can make the plastic contents, so the preorder system works for their typical miniature release, but not this one. And while you have online discounters like Wayland making massive preorders, it doesn't necessarily follow that the typical independent store made similarly large preorders.
So what would have worked? What would have let them accurately predict that this was going to sell better than their expectations given they have the sales numbers for their previous stand along games? And given them this information in time to do something about it?
I know that I couldn't get a copy and thus won't buy any of the terrain for the forseeable future. It's a principle thing, don't buy stuff for a lot more than others just had to pay. Especially if bundled with important gameplay aides like tokens and a physical rulebook. At least pdf rules to check out, but even after 19 years of buying GW stuff I might NOT have artillery dice. And if I have to print tokens and source special dice and everything I might as well go download the team rosters and use them with my OG Necromunda books and terrain.
Sucks for them, I have free time and "I just had three days of five hours exams, lets treat myself" mood and the Death Guard release will probably fall into the time I start working.
This is the first time I'm considering contacting GW to tell them that they'd miss out on my money for the set, potentially add on purchases from people around me and that they should continue support as well as release M2O Necro gangs while they're at it. I'd get full Escher, Delaque, Scavvy and Cawdor gangs, OG Redemptionists and all bounty hunters, beasts, psykers, SCs and the Rat King. Maybe Ratskins, too, but I don't want to go overboard.
aka_mythos wrote: The last 2 years has seen so many products sell-out in pre-order. So if they are "estimating" they suck at it.
If the goal is to mitigate risk to capital and maintain ridiculously impressive margins, then they are not sucking at it at all.
Selling out in pre order never seems to include the stock sent to GW stores or independent stockists. And it seems to increase the demand through those channels as people get in on the hype train.
Yes, they'd make more revenue if they made more copies, but when things don't sell quite as well, then they have extra inventory just sitting around and the money they put into the larger production run (and the opportunity cost paid in their product capabilities not being used for the next product) means they might not hit their margin goals.
I'm not sure they do suck at estimating. I just think the goal is not "Get a product into the hands of every single person who wants one, no matter the risk if things don't sell as well as we'd like."
Think about it this way: their current approach to production runs means that their "sucking" is when they meet all their goals way earlier than expected and people complain about it on the internet but then go line up in the morning at the local store to make sure they get a copy. All while not sinking so much money or production time into a given run so that if it doesn't sell well, it doesn't damage the company.
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kodos wrote:
frozenwastes wrote: So what sort of market research would have clued GW in that they needed to make more copies of this product up front?
Taking the amount of BloodBowl boxes sold/ordered for example as indicator
Do you honestly think they didn't? Like the guy sitting down to decide how many to make was like "better not look at how any of our other stand along games sold. Let's not take Bloodbowl into consideration at all!"
I think the production run was probably very much with Bloodbowl and Warhammer Quest and all those other games in mind. The thing that shocked them is that people want a different way to play 40k than the current version of 40k. They were expecting bloodbowl level of sales and got hit by 40k levels of demand.
Binabik15 wrote:Sucks for them, I have free time and "I just had three days of five hours exams, lets treat myself" mood and the Death Guard release will probably fall into the time I start working.
This is the first time I'm considering contacting GW to tell them that they'd miss out on my money for the set
I know exactly what you mean. I love treating myself with game stuff when things go well in life. And I do think you should contact GW about it if you really feel strongly about it. They underestimated demand.
I just don't think it was as predictable as everyone else. And the standard for accuracy needed for those predictions is way higher than most people realize.
The main thing I see is that while the new dark lord is an improvement over Kirby he is still an accountant and as such will have a mind set to reflect that.
Accountants hate risk and only see the big picture in relation to figures. If he sees 10k copies made and sold and a nice fat 0 left in inventory he is happy, the fact that retailers are annoyed after getting fluffed at gamma and that only a small amount of potential customers got the product will not even register.
His only goal is to get GW's financials back in order and healthy. The main difference between him and the last incumbent is that he is not a micro manager and knows when to stay hands off and let people do there jobs.
As for the numbers produced they don't research anything they produce the same amount of every one and done set which is the minimum amount they can order and still get the best discount which I have heard is around the 10k mark.
@frozenwastes. I think that's a good point, the last time they sold Necromunda it wasn't selling that much (albeit lacking due support). Rede leasing it in a differant format with new terrain was a risk and one that I'm sure GW assessed prior to manufacture.
I'm suprised though at the lack of more concrete announcements from GW seeing increased demand would be a contingency they would have planned for. I'm guessing (as a corporate tool myself) that the first week of Easter school holidays might have denuded them of an approver for such action. I would hope some better news this week.
frozenwastes wrote: So what sort of market research would have clued GW in that they needed to make more copies of this product up front?
Hypothetically, if I'd wanted to test potential demand for a GW entry into the tight skirmish game market before committing resources for some 1 - 2 years for making a new game with new miniatures and without spending thousands of pounds/dollars/euros/yens on surveys and focus groups in lots of diverse markets around the world, I might consider simply bundling some terrain I was making anyhow with some old miniatures, copy-&-paste an old dusty ruleset that doesn't take up many manhours from my design team and launch the whole thing as a test balloon just so I have some numbers.
That's only true of improperly trained or amateur accountants. Properly trained ones are fully capable of understanding the bigger picture, because they have to in order to understand how to prevent fraudulent activities and how to ensure that the most useful information is presented to each particular client. Don't talk about subjects you only barely have scratched the surface of.
SeanDrake wrote: The main thing I see is that while the new dark lord is an improvement over Kirby he is still an accountant and as such will have a mind set to reflect that.
Accountants hate risk and only see the big picture in relation to figures. If he sees 10k copies made and sold and a nice fat 0 left in inventory he is happy, the fact that retailers are annoyed after getting fluffed at gamma and that only a small amount of potential customers got the product will not even register.
You say that as if it's not the way almost every single firm in the country is run.
And it's not just accountants, it's anyone with half a brain.
SeanDrake wrote:The main thing I see is that while the new dark lord is an improvement over Kirby he is still an accountant and as such will have a mind set to reflect that.
As a former corporate accountant, I guess I get the mind set. People (rightfully) bring up that GW left a lot of money on the table here, but I think the more important consideration is how much money could have been at risk if they were overly optimistic about how this was going to sell.
I must admit that I find it very strange that I've become a defender of GW's approach to business. I really thought Kirby was going to do a lot more damage with his contempt for communicating with the customer. His semi-retirement might have been the best thing possible for GW.
As for the numbers produced they don't research anything they produce the same amount of every one and done set which is the minimum amount they can order and still get the best discount which I have heard is around the 10k mark.
Well, it's probably the case that given their high prices, that might actually meet their goals in terms of covering capital investment and maintaining their margins on future sales of the terrain kits.
notprop wrote:@frozenwastes. I think that's a good point, the last time they sold Necromunda it wasn't selling that much (albeit lacking due support). Rede leasing it in a differant format with new terrain was a risk and one that I'm sure GW assessed prior to manufacture.
I'm suprised though at the lack of more concrete announcements from GW seeing increased demand would be a contingency they would have planned for. I'm guessing (as a corporate tool myself) that the first week of Easter school holidays might have denuded them of an approver for such action. I would hope some better news this week.
Yeah. Their response has been as poor as the assessment of demand.
I honestly think a release of the rules as a digital product and the upcoming terrain is enough of a response, but it was just done really poorly. They just should have had a statement ready to go just in case. Or at the very least had the product page turn into some sort of "email when this is available again" page and then email all those people when it goes digital only.
Wonderwolf wrote:
frozenwastes wrote: So what sort of market research would have clued GW in that they needed to make more copies of this product up front?
Hypothetically, if I'd wanted to test potential demand for a GW entry into the tight skirmish game market before committing resources for some 1 - 2 years for making a new game with new miniatures and without spending thousands of pounds/dollars/euros/yens on surveys and focus groups in lots of diverse markets around the world, I might consider simply bundling some terrain I was making anyhow with some old miniatures, copy-&-paste an old dusty ruleset that doesn't take up many manhours from my design team and launch the whole thing as a test balloon just so I have some numbers.
This is the best post ever on the subject.
Melissia wrote:That's only true of improperly trained or amateur accountants. Properly trained ones are fully capable of understanding the bigger picture, because they have to in order to understand how to prevent fraudulent activities and how to ensure that the most useful information is presented to each particular client. Don't talk about subjects you only barely have scratched the surface of.
Was there something about Rountree that makes you think he doesn't understand the bigger picture? Or isn't properly trained?
Would you advise a client to increase a production run without any data supporting a likely increase in sales?
"He qualified as a chartered management accountant in August 2001. Prior to joining Games Workshop, Kevin was the management accountant at J Barbour & Sons Limited and trained at Price Waterhouse."
Seems strange that you chastised someone for not knowing about accounting and then didn't know that generally publicly traded companies are very up front about the biographies of their c-level executives.
Do you honestly think they didn't? Like the guy sitting down to decide how many to make was like "better not look at how any of our other stand along games sold. Let's not take Bloodbowl into consideration at all!"
No, I think they look on all Boxed Games, for some were just an experiment to see how much can be sold in a specific combination
like nice models, useless rules, huge discount
or old models, good rules, no discount
sometimes it seems they just look at the last boxed game numbers.
not sure if they made the conclusion that good rules for a full multi faction game will outsell every box with shiny new models.
some say Burning of Prospero was a desaster like Dreadfleet
while BloodBowl and SW:A sold more than expected
the rules as the important factor of selling stuff is obvious for most people
I would have not expected that after BloodBowl they again make the mistake to underestimate the interest in good rules.
Kijamon wrote: There is absolutely no way burning of prospero was a flop. They had limited stock over Christmas for stockists.
I know, and most stores I know sold all their copies
but some people on german forums who claim to have insider infos, still say that BoP sold worse than Dreadfleet
I have no number's for a counter argument and just the impression that it sold good
Kijamon wrote: There is absolutely no way burning of prospero was a flop. They had limited stock over Christmas for stockists.
I know, and most stores I know sold all their copies
but some people on german forums who claim to have insider infos, still say that BoP sold worse than Dreadfleet
I have no number's for a counter argument and just the impression that it sold good
Dreadfleet sold to stores really well, it's the fact that it sat once people saw and got a look at it and the gameplay that killed it. With BoP, Local shops also had to deal with online stores who were selling it, and the fact that it was a sequel to the Calth box and cheap mark armor. People were buying multiples from online stores instead of in shop when they can buy four for the price of three and have a 30k army all but built.
kodos wrote: I would have not expected that after BloodBowl they again make the mistake to underestimate the interest in good rules.
I get what you are saying now and I agree. I just think the real driver of demand here was that it is an alternative to the 40k rules set but you can still do 40k with it. So better rules, but also different. I think it got 40k customer demand rather than just stand alone game demand.
kodos wrote: I would have not expected that after BloodBowl they again make the mistake to underestimate the interest in good rules.
I get what you are saying now and I agree. I just think the real driver of demand here was that it is an alternative to the 40k rules set but you can still do 40k with it. So better rules, but also different. I think it got 40k customer demand rather than just stand alone game demand.
yeah it got the 40k players craving for a playable game demand
and GW still underestimate the power of good rules for selling their stuff
frozenwastes wrote: So what sort of market research would have clued GW in that they needed to make more copies of this product up front?
Taking the amount of BloodBowl boxes sold/ordered for example as indicator
It goes back to what I was saying, initially many of the Blood Bowl products sold out, so it can't really be used other than to tell them that if they only make "X" they'll sell out.
That's someone also being ridiculous - though it being up (and actually going) for around £150 is also pants on head crazy.
Guess people really love a printed rulebook and tokens! I'm tempted to sell my rulebook for the silly money it's going for!
It is crazy but entirely predictable. If you keep an eye on the used market, anything at all with a limited edition or rare attached to it goes for stupid money.
I have 2 models of the old legion of the damned Sergant Centurius, one painted, one in its original blister. I was offered £80 for the blister pack one by someone I had never met before who was looking at the painted one on a gaming table when I mentioned I had another.
People go crazy for rare GW stuff, which is why doing limited runs of actual games is such a poor choice.
SeanDrake wrote: The main thing I see is that while the new dark lord is an improvement over Kirby he is still an accountant and as such will have a mind set to reflect that.
Accountants hate risk and only see the big picture in relation to figures. If he sees 10k copies made and sold and a nice fat 0 left in inventory he is happy, the fact that retailers are annoyed after getting fluffed at gamma and that only a small amount of potential customers got the product will not even register.
You say that as if it's not the way almost every single firm in the country is run.
And it's not just accountants, it's anyone with half a brain.
No. Selling out of a product without the ability to fulfill future orders, in the business world is generally regarded as a failure. Your accountants maybe happy, but they're happy when money spent equals money earned. Investors want as much money earned as possible and a failure to meet demand is a failure to optimize profits and shareholder value.
When trying to meet demand based on collected data the business people should generate an optimization curve to dictate production. In doing so a properly managed and forecasted demand should over estimate ideally between 3-5% more than what's "needed" because after a point the price of those extra so many units should become negligible. Consider GW produced the box and sold at msrp for $130, or $80 wholesale... following general practices only 1/3 of that $80 is material cost, some percentage is R&D and tooling, and some is overhead, the remainder becomes profit. If GW plans this initially as a 20k unit production by the time you produce that last box all your R&D, tooling, and a percentage of overhead are completely absorbed. So the profit of every box beyond 20k, is doubled; instead of profiting $27, they're profiting almost $54 a box... at that level any company should be willing to absorb a prospect where only 1-in-3 of that manufactured overage has to be sold. Particularly with this sort of game, that overage risk is significantly mitigated as the unsold boxsets can be broken up and sold in those smaller individual kits or even scrapped with the plastic being ground and turned to new sprues, where the cost of the paper goods are absorbed by the higher margins of those smaller kits.
While there might be an opportunity cost in having assets tied up in extra inventory, not having that overage costs you the opportunity for market share growth. Without overage you will never grow the customer base.
Let's also point out that one of GWs failings is that IF they are soooooo risk adverse they should seriously consider running "pre-orders" as true pre-orders, where it pre-ordered while in production and used to establish what volume of product is necessary. What GW does is really pre-selling and allocating.
Let's also point out that one of GWs failings is that IF they are soooooo risk adverse they should seriously consider running "pre-orders" as true pre-orders, where it pre-ordered while in production and used to establish what volume of product is necessary. What GW does is really pre-selling and allocating.
but than they would need to break with the dogma of not advertising anything in advance or let costumers know about their plans for the next 6 months
SeanDrake wrote: The main thing I see is that while the new dark lord is an improvement over Kirby he is still an accountant and as such will have a mind set to reflect that.
Accountants hate risk and only see the big picture in relation to figures. If he sees 10k copies made and sold and a nice fat 0 left in inventory he is happy, the fact that retailers are annoyed after getting fluffed at gamma and that only a small amount of potential customers got the product will not even register.
You say that as if it's not the way almost every single firm in the country is run.
And it's not just accountants, it's anyone with half a brain.
No. Selling out of a product without the ability to fulfill future orders, in the business world is generally regarded as a failure. Your accountants maybe happy, but they're happy when money spent equals money earned. Investors want as much money earned as possible and a failure to meet demand is a failure to optimize profits and shareholder value.
When trying to meet demand based on collected data the business people should generate an optimization curve to dictate production. In doing so a properly managed and forecasted demand should over estimate ideally between 3-5% more than what's "needed" because after a point the price of those extra so many units should become negligible. Consider GW produced the box and sold at msrp for $130, or $80 wholesale... following general practices only 1/3 of that $80 is material cost, some percentage is R&D and tooling, and some is overhead, the remainder becomes profit. If GW plans this initially as a 20k unit production by the time you produce that last box all your R&D, tooling, and a percentage of overhead are completely absorbed. So the profit of every box beyond 20k, is doubled; instead of profiting $27, they're profiting almost $54 a box... at that level any company should be willing to absorb a prospect where only 1-in-3 of that manufactured overage has to be sold. Particularly with this sort of game, that overage risk is significantly mitigated as the unsold boxsets can be broken up and sold in those smaller individual kits or even scrapped with the plastic being ground and turned to new sprues, where the cost of the paper goods are absorbed by the higher margins of those smaller kits.
While there might be an opportunity cost in having assets tied up in extra inventory, not having that overage costs you the opportunity for market share growth. Without overage you will never grow the customer base.
Let's also point out that one of GWs failings is that IF they are soooooo risk adverse they should seriously consider running "pre-orders" as true pre-orders, where it pre-ordered while in production and used to establish what volume of product is necessary. What GW does is really pre-selling and allocating.
But they have already stated the rules will be more widely available soon and the terrain kits will be available individually starting next week. GW is doing exactly what you are saying they should be doing. That it isn't available in a single box anymore seems to be the only arguing point. People are claiming GW could have probably made twice as many, but that has no basis or support. The print run was likely at least 20,000 units based on information from previous threads on stand alone GW games. If they were off by just 10% that is still 2000 angry people that are coming onto the internet to rant. Just 100 of those coming to DakkaDakka to fume is a massive amount for a thread.
I think the issue is that it wasn't billed as Limited Release until it's pre-order went up.
I managed to secure a copy (it's in the post) but I still think it's rotten others missed out, especially when some FLGS on-line orders weren't fulfilled.
I've heard some GW stores got no stock, and my local one only got two in, which were reserved (likely for peeps that missed out pre-ordering in store last week).
I get it sold incredibly well, but they've seriously dropped the ball on this release - and it's not going to take many paranoid interwebular comments until people are convinced it wasn't a honest muck up, but a calculated plan to sell more of the terrain at full price (I'm not arguing that!) so they've shot themselves in the foot.
I still hold out some hope there'll be a full reprint before long, but expectation goes down every day.
But they have already stated the rules will be more widely available soon.
if GW wants, they could have already put a digital rulebook in their shop.
there is a digital copy available for the printing company, to convert it to an ebook of any kind takes an hour (or just minutes if you skip to make an index, search etc)
so it could have been online today
the fact that it is not just tells me that "soon" will be a very long time
This is a really pointless argument when no one knows:
a) How many units GW produced.
b) How many units GW sold.
All we know is that they're the same number. It might be that 'a' is a totally sensible figure - like many times the copies they made of Bloodbowl and Silver Tower like everyone is saying they 'should' have - but the demand was just that high.
I mean, probably not, but without knowing the numbers, it's all just speculation. They underestimated demand, but we have no idea how reasonable their initial estimate was.
And, honestly, if it didn't sell out, a lot of people here would be calling it a failure. I remember when they did limited editions of the first few AoS Battletomes and how much pure glee there was that they didn't sell out in minutes like the old Warhammer books. GW can't really win here.
PS. I got my order in the moment it went up - like, 09:55 - so I may just be a bit smug...
It sounds very much like my local GW got almost none too, talking up coming in and picking up a box until Thursday when all the post were deleted and replaced with
we got very few, arrive before we open to have any chance of getting one
SeanDrake wrote: The main thing I see is that while the new dark lord is an improvement over Kirby he is still an accountant and as such will have a mind set to reflect that.
Accountants hate risk and only see the big picture in relation to figures. If he sees 10k copies made and sold and a nice fat 0 left in inventory he is happy, the fact that retailers are annoyed after getting fluffed at gamma and that only a small amount of potential customers got the product will not even register.
You say that as if it's not the way almost every single firm in the country is run.
And it's not just accountants, it's anyone with half a brain.
No. Selling out of a product without the ability to fulfill future orders, in the business world is generally regarded as a failure. Your accountants maybe happy, but they're happy when money spent equals money earned. Investors want as much money earned as possible and a failure to meet demand is a failure to optimize profits and shareholder value.
When trying to meet demand based on collected data the business people should generate an optimization curve to dictate production. In doing so a properly managed and forecasted demand should over estimate ideally between 3-5% more than what's "needed" because after a point the price of those extra so many units should become negligible. Consider GW produced the box and sold at msrp for $130, or $80 wholesale... following general practices only 1/3 of that $80 is material cost, some percentage is R&D and tooling, and some is overhead, the remainder becomes profit. If GW plans this initially as a 20k unit production by the time you produce that last box all your R&D, tooling, and a percentage of overhead are completely absorbed. So the profit of every box beyond 20k, is doubled; instead of profiting $27, they're profiting almost $54 a box... at that level any company should be willing to absorb a prospect where only 1-in-3 of that manufactured overage has to be sold. Particularly with this sort of game, that overage risk is significantly mitigated as the unsold boxsets can be broken up and sold in those smaller individual kits or even scrapped with the plastic being ground and turned to new sprues, where the cost of the paper goods are absorbed by the higher margins of those smaller kits.
While there might be an opportunity cost in having assets tied up in extra inventory, not having that overage costs you the opportunity for market share growth. Without overage you will never grow the customer base.
Let's also point out that one of GWs failings is that IF they are soooooo risk adverse they should seriously consider running "pre-orders" as true pre-orders, where it pre-ordered while in production and used to establish what volume of product is necessary. What GW does is really pre-selling and allocating.
Selling out is good, it's how you manage that fortunate situation that governs whether or not is is a success. Now if as I am lead to believe there is distribution stock that is to be made available then they can leverage what will already been seen as a successful release into a great one. It's only day 1 of release, let's see what happens in the new week before declaring ruination and disaster.
My GW sold all 6 copies immediately. Line out front before it opened and one guy had driven like 6 hours to get one and missed out. Luckily I got my copy from preorder.
The prices on ebay are outrageous. The most annoying part of limited release like this and 3rd edition Space Hulk is there's copies just sitting around unused with people trying to get double or triple the retail price. Luckily the digital rules should limit the secondary markups somewhat.
My GW manager gave me the promo kit stuff since he couldn't even demo the game. Tempted to toss it up for sale so someone can get some tokens if they missed getting a box.
SeanDrake wrote: The main thing I see is that while the new dark lord is an improvement over Kirby he is still an accountant and as such will have a mind set to reflect that.
Accountants hate risk and only see the big picture in relation to figures. If he sees 10k copies made and sold and a nice fat 0 left in inventory he is happy, the fact that retailers are annoyed after getting fluffed at gamma and that only a small amount of potential customers got the product will not even register.
You say that as if it's not the way almost every single firm in the country is run.
And it's not just accountants, it's anyone with half a brain.
No. Selling out of a product without the ability to fulfill future orders, in the business world is generally regarded as a failure. Your accountants maybe happy, but they're happy when money spent equals money earned. Investors want as much money earned as possible and a failure to meet demand is a failure to optimize profits and shareholder value.
When trying to meet demand based on collected data the business people should generate an optimization curve to dictate production. In doing so a properly managed and forecasted demand should over estimate ideally between 3-5% more than what's "needed" because after a point the price of those extra so many units should become negligible. Consider GW produced the box and sold at msrp for $130, or $80 wholesale... following general practices only 1/3 of that $80 is material cost, some percentage is R&D and tooling, and some is overhead, the remainder becomes profit. If GW plans this initially as a 20k unit production by the time you produce that last box all your R&D, tooling, and a percentage of overhead are completely absorbed. So the profit of every box beyond 20k, is doubled; instead of profiting $27, they're profiting almost $54 a box... at that level any company should be willing to absorb a prospect where only 1-in-3 of that manufactured overage has to be sold. Particularly with this sort of game, that overage risk is significantly mitigated as the unsold boxsets can be broken up and sold in those smaller individual kits or even scrapped with the plastic being ground and turned to new sprues, where the cost of the paper goods are absorbed by the higher margins of those smaller kits.
While there might be an opportunity cost in having assets tied up in extra inventory, not having that overage costs you the opportunity for market share growth. Without overage you will never grow the customer base.
Let's also point out that one of GWs failings is that IF they are soooooo risk adverse they should seriously consider running "pre-orders" as true pre-orders, where it pre-ordered while in production and used to establish what volume of product is necessary. What GW does is really pre-selling and allocating.
Selling out is good, it's how you manage that fortunate situation that governs whether or not is is a success. Now if as I am lead to believe there is distribution stock that is to be made available then they can leverage what will already been seen as a successful release into a great one. It's only day 1 of release, let's see what happens in the new week before declaring ruination and disaster.
"What is the purpose of business? -To provide a service that optimizes shareholder wealth." Under that definition the two criteria of a business' success is making the greatest profit and whether it provides a desired service.
Selling out is failure. The statistical likelihood of producing exactly the number to satisfy the market is infinitesimally small, and in a completely efficient sales system that infinitesimally small chance is the only scenario where selling out is a positive outcome. Selling out means you did not make enough. It means you failed to fully provide for a desired service. There was money that you would have made for your shareholders that you failed to earn.
Selling out is not good particularly for a game. Selling out means you're unable to capitalize on popularity of a product to grow market share. Every product has a life cycle and selling out stunts the growth and longevity of the customer and player base. I literally just left a Killteam gaming group where only one out of the seven regulars who wanted a copy was able to get a copy.
We can talk about how maybe their "estimates," which I still think we're just an arbitrary number, was reasonable, but that just means the guy shouldn't be fired. This is a revenue loss. Someone's poor choice cost them sales, sales that are more profitable than these initial batches.
Not sure what happened but they seem to have shipped all the stock to random places in the US and Canada, as if what people are saying is true(I don't see any reason it would not be) then some individual stores got more than my entire region(which includes 3 GW's and half a dozen lfgs.
davou wrote: eh, I dunno what industry you work in, but I've never worked anywhere where selling out was considered a failure.
specially in those industries were selling out means that a customer won't buy anything again
Got any examples? Because this is an industry where people will buy gak, just for the sake of having two or three extras that they can display rather than actually use, let alone need.
If gw was providing a hospital with their supply of insulin, then maybe I'd buy into this crap argument... But they are selling a board game, planned for its release to be profitable, and achieved that goal rather than in the time-line they expected, did it over night. THEN to top it all of, they've had nearly the entire peripheral industry talking about nothing but it for the last week straight.
anyone suggesting that they've somehow 'failed' is talking out of their ass.
Just asking just in case one of you knows,Do the buildings have rules or stats? like the galvanic magnavent does it have toughness like a munitorum armored container,or special rules grant armor saves,Effect Ballistic skill with targeters or grant extra promethium barrels/caches.
raw material industry
if you cannot fulfill the orders or put material on the market that outsell in the first run, costumers are searching either for another company or another raw material
there is always an alternative
so for a board game:
if people cannot get the rules they won't buy it later but get it either somewhere else or search for alternative rules
next step is that they won't buy the terrain or models because they are angry and they can get similar stuff from a different company
everyone that just wanted the rules but did not get them won't buy them in 3 months
so that money is lost
From a businessman... the board game market is different folks. Gw has several lines, shadow war (a specialist game... not a staple line) will not make or break the brand.
Those saying selling out is bad... that's just anger speaking. That's like saying selling out of gorechosen will ruin gw, make them lose thousands of customers, and they will go bankrupt - sounds ridiculous doesn't it? They made a print run and had projected the profit they would make from it. They sold out and made profit. Sure their profit could have been bigger if they had made more, but if it hadn't sold well they could be losing money on stock. They don't have stock sitting around now which is good for business (should be fluid, stock in and out right away).
So a few folks got upset. They can buy pdf rules later to use their existing models. Anyone can buy the scenery. Their main games are 40k and aos anyway. Sorry but selling out sw:a isn't going to ruin gw folks, even if a handfull walk away upset.
davou wrote: eh, I dunno what industry you work in, but I've never worked anywhere where selling out was considered a failure.
Where have you worked? Because leaving money on the table is definitely a failure for a business.
There's a world of difference selling out of the chicken, meaning a few customers have to order the fish, and radically underestimating demand to the point that a significant percentage of your customers are unable to make a purchase to the point where it seems to generate ill will in your consumer base.
davou wrote: eh, I dunno what industry you work in, but I've never worked anywhere where selling out was considered a failure.
Where have you worked? Because leaving money on the table is definitely a failure for a business.
There's a world of difference selling out of the chicken, meaning a few customers have to order the fish, and radically underestimating demand to the point that a significant percentage of your customers are unable to make a purchase to the point where it seems to generate ill will in your consumer base.
This is only true if not making the absolute maximum profit on something is a failure.
This is a degree of success, it's not the success it could be if they had projected better, but it's still a success.
How many customers will GW have actually lost once the toys are back in the pram? A handful?
raw material industry
if you cannot fulfill the orders or put material on the market that outsell in the first run, costumers are searching either for another company or another raw material
That's demonstrably false; both the rare earths market and the corn/syrup industries have been through shakeups of supply being outstripped by demand in the last decade, and every major player in that industry is still happily selling along after they've been unable or unwilling to sell. Rare earths when china imposed quotes on export, and Corn when the US goverment subsidized the production of corn based ethanol and farmers switched from cattle feed to ethanol producing corns. In both those cases, industries still happily deal with those suppliers who previously couldn't provide.
You're acting like GW offered futures in the game, and then failed to deliver on the contracts. As long as a supplier does not make a contract to sell and renege on it, selling out isn't bad in any way. Further in this case, the sellout has generated MASSIVE marketing hype and brand awareness.
there is always an alternative
so for a board game:
if people cannot get the rules they won't buy it later but get it either somewhere else or search for alternative rules
next step is that they won't buy the terrain or models because they are angry and they can get similar stuff from a different company
everyone that just wanted the rules but did not get them won't buy them in 3 months
so that money is lost.
Again, this is not how the GW fanbase works... People will buy a huge amount of stupid crap from GW
So no, people won't boycot GW for selling out of a product... And further, money isnt lost becayse people will refuse to buy the rules in three months, because THEY ALREADY MADE ALL THE MONEY THEY SET OUT TO MAKE..... If they had planned for this to span three months, and they finished their supplies in under ten minutes, they've got NOTHING at all to believe they've failed on.
SeanDrake wrote: Not sure what happened but they seem to have shipped all the stock to random places in the US and Canada, as if what people are saying is true(I don't see any reason it would not be) then some individual stores got more than my entire region(which includes 3 GW's and half a dozen lfgs.
I'm sure it has to do with how much the stores are selling in general. If FLGS #1 moves a ton of product for GW, they are probably going to send them more than they might send to a tiny GW store in the same region. I'm sure that's what happened in my area. We have a massive FLGS, from what I've heard one of the biggest in the US, and I'm sure that they got a ton more than the actual GW store that got 6 total.
The sales reps for GW know what will move in their area and probably pull strings to make sure they get more allocation than areas that probably won't move as much. Now with this release it probably would have sold out anywhere, but they didn't know that ahead of time when they allocate the shipments.
As far as I am concerned, selling out is good, but selling out when you could have made twice or three times as much or more, and still sold out, is not.
Especially when you have no means of getting those sales back.
if GW wants, they could have already put a digital rulebook in their shop.
there is a digital copy available for the printing company, to convert it to an ebook of any kind takes an hour (or just minutes if you skip to make an index, search etc)
so it could have been online today
Yes, and everyone would have asked what al those funky weird colours lines were doing on the white space outside the borders.
The PDF that went to the printers is not a version you want on your iPad. A whole other version will have to be generated for downloading without proofing marks. And if we're really fantasizing, maybe they'll place the 60 pages of additional Kill Teams back in the main book. I don't even care about lack of page numbers...
I don't know if this is common, but not getting a copy means I won't be buying the half a table worth of terrain I was planning on getting, including stuff like the reactor and pipelines to hook up to it. Why? Because I hate paying more than other people for the same thing. Seeing the prices on the separate terrain and adding it up with the cost of a rule book, not to mention I was actually looking forward to getting scouts and orks, and suddenly buying separately looks like an incredibly bad deal. And I don't do bad deals, ever. So this has curbed my GW spending heavily for quite a while because of the cascading effect of not getting a box. And since no one else at the club got a copy either that means even more potential spending gone since we can't play it, and I'm too sour to be likely to want to start one when the rules are released.
GW won't let people play WHFB in stores any more because it's a game that is no longer available. A bit contradictory that they're running SW:A campaigns in store. Obviously a game that is no longer available.
Rayvon wrote: As far as I am concerned, selling out is good, but selling out when you could have made twice or three times as much or more, and still sold out, is not.
Especially when you have no means of getting those sales back.
QFT. In any publicly owned business, maximizing shareholder wealth is paramount. Another poster above said the same. While perhaps not a failure, per se, this can absolutely be considered a squandered opportunity.
davou wrote: eh, I dunno what industry you work in, but I've never worked anywhere where selling out was considered a failure.
Where have you worked? Because leaving money on the table is definitely a failure for a business.
There's a world of difference selling out of the chicken, meaning a few customers have to order the fish, and radically underestimating demand to the point that a significant percentage of your customers are unable to make a purchase to the point where it seems to generate ill will in your consumer base.
This is only true if not making the absolute maximum profit on something is a failure.
This is a degree of success, it's not the success it could be if they had projected better, but it's still a success.
How many customers will GW have actually lost once the toys are back in the pram? A handful?
Who's to say?
Who's to say how many they'd lost because of Chapterhouse, or other pointless litigation? Who's to say how many they lost each time an army was passed over for update, or received a poor one? Or each time a price increase bit a little further into someone's hobby budget?
These things are cumulative, and each time one can respond with "yeah, but how many did we really lose?" until it's 5 or 10 years later and your revenue is on a collision course with your operating costs and your profit is heading down the toilet.
But yes, as a one off, it will just be the hundreds, possibly thousands, of people who didn't get to give GW their £80 this weekend who may find something non-GW to spend it on before given another opportunity.
As for
This is a degree of success
That's just arguing semantics. Is selling enough to cover production costs and make a small profit a 'success' or is leaving potentially as many people unable to buy the product as are able to a 'failure?'
Calling a succes selling out a product when there is a lot of angry customers who aren't able to purchase it, shows an alarming lack of business sense.
Is it a total failure that endangers the survival of GW? Obviously not. But just for the amount of ill will and bad publicity that this has generarted, it is far from a success. At least, lest hope that this force GW to change some of its pratices, and that they start to do that weird arcane thing that is market research.
Those saying selling out is bad... that's just anger speaking. That's like saying selling out of gorechosen will ruin gw, make them lose thousands of customers, and they will go bankrupt - sounds ridiculous doesn't it?
Yes, it sounds ridiculous. It's also not what anyone is saying.
People are saying that selling out means missed sales, not that the company will collapse as a result of this one missed opportunity.
Missed sales when you made all the money that you set out to make is much healthier for a company than unsold product sitting on shelves because you decided to make tons of it 'just in case'.
Not like they wont be making more boxed games and selling them in the future; and I'm sure they will adjust quantity on the next one to take a bit more advantage of the obvious appeal.... But Im sure they'd be happy if every one of their next 'projects' sells out in minutes.
Those saying selling out is bad... that's just anger speaking. That's like saying selling out of gorechosen will ruin gw, make them lose thousands of customers, and they will go bankrupt - sounds ridiculous doesn't it?
Yes, it sounds ridiculous. It's also not what anyone is saying.
People are saying that selling out means missed sales, not that the company will collapse as a result of this one missed opportunity.
davou wrote: Missed sales when you made all the money that you set out to make is much healthier for a company than unsold product sitting on shelves because you decided to make tons of it 'just in case'..
No, neither of these things are healthy. Also, while businesses may have sales targets, no business will "make the money it sets out to make" and self limit so it doesn't make any more, assuming the demand is there.
davou wrote: Missed sales when you made all the money that you set out to make is much healthier for a company than unsold product sitting on shelves because you decided to make tons of it 'just in case'.
Not like they wont be making more boxed games and selling them in the future; and I'm sure they will adjust quantity on the next one to take a bit more advantage of the obvious appeal.... But Im sure they'd be happy if every one of their next 'projects' sells out in minutes.
he, not really. It depends on how much unsold product you are left with, and on how much more product you could have sold. For example, only doing 1000 copies of a product when there was 5000 persons who were willing to buy it, is a lot more unhealthier than doing 5500 copies, cause while it is true that you're stuck with 500 copies, the increase in sales would without a doubt compensate for that (unless your unitary profit is very very low, but it is doubtfull it is the case here)
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