Joyboozer wrote: Have to be honest, I also think we will see a wave 2. At this point there is no out for Palladium.
Do I think it will include everything? No, not a chance.
But I do think they will release something and tout it as having completed wave 2, and announce the rest to be completed at a later date.
Agreed. At this point all we can do is wait. My uncle used to say that I have the patience of a saint. He's dead now though...but I'm putting that to the test with wave 2.
and yet you still continue to hope and dream such a pity, meanwhile I have my stuff, what have you got?
You mean your horribly, non-detailed models..that barely meet proxy standards? No thanks. Maybe if they looked better, I'd be jealous. Besides...I'm not in any hurry for Southern Cross stuff or New Generation. I'm still having fun with my Macross saga stuff. But thanks for caring.
Also right now no company or bank will loan PB the money due to them being a poor risk investment, not that PB hasn't already tried. keep dreaming eric, keep dreaming.
Again, unless you have access to their financials and which banks they are using..or even the names of private investment groups/ individuals...you are speculating. The fact that I'm disappointed in PB for their bad decisions over this project...and their gross incompetence in how to actually support a war-game properly..I'm almost tempted to root for them to complete wave 2...just to see the shocked faces of the snarky people on here. I like how I posted my point of view several pages ago..but have basically been attacked the entire time because my point of view differs from yours or others. LOL. I find it amusing and sad at that same time. :shrug: The funny thing is that I'm not trying to stop you from what you are doing..go ahead...sue PB and see what happens...yet somehow I'm the anti-christ because I regularly play this game with a group of people and continue to buy things for the game...because you know..I like the game.
and what does it say about you, when you are the only one who is supporting PB? ask yourself this, not even PB defends themselves, you are their only defense here and most likely elsewhere, we have danced this dance many times, and yet its PB's own inactions which have reduced their supporters of this game to a single individual.
So you want other people to shoulder a risk you're not willing to take, taking advantage if what YOU believe in comes true, but not suffering any meaningful consequence, and then complaining because those people don't have faith that Kevin will deliver, and that might ruin your chance to purchase after other people have put in the financial stake required to get the game to market? That's a really principled stance you're taking there.
Wait? What? You want me to be held responsible for your decision to participate in the KS? That's not my problem. And before you demonize me, understand that I sympathize with all the backers. I've been on the record many times regarding it. PB has messed up (i'd use other words...but the filter prevents me)...we all agree on that. I've even listed at length all the things they need to do to right the ship and make the game a flagship game. However, my knowledge of PB over the many years and how they operate made me reconsider doing the KS. I guess you could say I made a better informed decision? While I'm grateful that the backers basically delivered me a game I can play..at the same time...it doesn't give them carte blanche to piss in people's cornflakes who actually enjoy the game and want to see it have longevity. Every time I bring up my POV on this subject it's usually met with disdain from the same few people (who are backers) that want to somehow save me from PB and show me and others how wrong we are to support the game we love. You guys funded a game...but it doesn't entitle them tell me how I should feel about the game and whether or not to support the game...even if the PB are handling it like a bunch of newbs. Which is an understatement.
I'd gladly sell you my Gnerls, except I have none left to offer. I punted on this project over a year ago, taking a $100 loss on the transaction, and remaining thankful that I get to watch this trainwreck without having money tied to it.
I'm genuinely glad that you were able to get basically all your money back. Any person that is considering jumping ship should do so now to maximize what dollars they can get back by selling now vs. waiting for litigation and getting pretty much nothing.
And to head off any argument, as someone who paid in, and went through 5 months of excitement and a year of crap, I'm entitled to an opinion on public forums.
Yes, as a backer you have a right to complain about how things were handled. Piss and moan about how dumb PB is. Believe me, I'm with you on that What you don't have a right to do is tell people how they should feel about the game...or sour the experience of others to the game or head off any potential interest in the game...when it's their choice whether or not they want to support and play the game.
I don't post to the KSComments, because I think that's unfair. But that doesn't mean I don't get to point and laugh.
As long as the pointing and laughing is directed at the responsible party that created this mess...sure. But for us guys playing the game, contributing to the game, and getting others on board? No you don't get to do that..LOL.
LOL. I'm price insensitive to this game (I dropped nearly $300 on Con Exclusives)...just like I am with GW games. I buy titans at full retail from FW..not chinese fakes. I don't care how much it will cost if it looks good and is of quality.
I'm not coming to add to the witch-hunt aimed at you, instead I'll make a statement as to my situation;
My family is of modest means. We have a semi-strict budget that leaves a specific amount available for gaming related items. I blew three months of the gaming budget(not mine, the family's aggregate allotment) on RRT. My youngest didn't get to pick up a game he really wanted because I invested in the Kickstarter campaign, promising him that once the game showed up we'd have a great time playing. So you go ahead and talk about how much you're willing to spend to get what you want and I'll congratulate you on your financial success. But realise that I gave PB $160US two years ago and haven't gotten all of what I paid to receive and that money, to me, is a significant amount.
and what does it say about you, when you are the only one who is supporting PB? ask yourself this, not even PB defends themselves, you are their only defense here and most likely elsewhere, we have danced this dance many times, and yet its PB's own inactions which have reduced their supporters of this game to a single individual.
You are mistaken. At what point have I defended PBs handling of this project? How many times do I have to repeat it? They've botched this thing horribly. But I've managed to live with it. Sorry if my tolerance for stupidity is higher than yours. In the meantime, I still get to play the game and enjoy it. What I object to is that some how you have decided that you have moral authority in how people should treat this game...and the company that provides it. There are many people who probably like and enjoy this game and avoid any forums. Half of the people I play with do not visit any forums..as they find them to be a waste of time. (a bunch of bitchly little girls they call us forum folk). Does that make them wrong? Out of the 5000+ backers I've seen online.. maybe 20 of them express the type of displeasure you display. Most others are like me...cautiously optimistic...and want to see wave 2 and want info on wave 2. Others simply don't care and will wait it out. The bottom line is that I have a regular crew of people I play this game with. I've recruited 4 more...so from where I sit...more people are playing this game than there were 3 months ago. How many people are playing by you? Maybe that's what bothers you most? I don't know. So to say that I'll be the only one left is laughable. Don't forget..many people that buy PB stuff don't give a crap about this game. I have several friends that play the other PBRPGs...but hate Robotech. Are they bad people too because they like Dead Reign and therefore support a PB product?
warboss wrote: I just got Palladium's weekly spam mail.. here is the pertinent Robotech part:
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Nothing new to report at this time. A Wave Two release in the second Quarter of 2016 would be ideal. In fact, we’re planning to use its release as an opportunity to relaunch the game line with more support and an organized play program.
We’re a small company and have to juggle our workload and production schedules. Right now we are finishing a couple of RPG books, but in a few weeks, we’ll be turning our full attention back to Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Keep the faith!
So a couple months ago it was the end of this year, then it was end of March '16, now it's end of June '16? I'm not waiting that long for them to finish. What kind of moron would even talk that way about a project so far beyond its release date? "Keep the faith"? Is that some strange Michigan way of saying "Forcibly polish my bell-end"?
My family is of modest means. We have a semi-strict budget that leaves a specific amount available for gaming related items. I blew three months of the gaming budget(not mine, the family's aggregate allotment) on RRT. My youngest didn't get to pick up a game he really wanted because I invested in the Kickstarter campaign, promising him that once the game showed up we'd have a great time playing. So you go ahead and talk about how much you're willing to spend to get what you want and I'll congratulate you on your financial success. But realise that I gave PB $160US two years ago and haven't gotten all of what I paid to receive and that money, to me, is a significant amount.
I understand your situation and sympathize. I grew up dirt poor. Let me ask you this..did you know anything about PB and their track record before committing to the KS? A little research would reveal that they suck at delivering on time. Thus, anyone that chose to back the KS made their choice. I can't be responsible for your misfortune...so don't treat me as such. Whether my gaming budget is bigger is irrelevant. Actually, to fund my purchases..I sold some 40k stuff and other personal belongings to get what I wanted. My price insensitivity comes from my willingness to do what it takes to get the models I need. Maybe I have to sell some of my artwork, other models I don't use, or whatever. My suggestion if you are not satisfied with the whole KS and PB wave 2 debacle is to sell what you have got and try to get as much of your money back as you can. OR keep what you have and play the game and enjoy it..and wait for the rest of the stuff to arrive. At a certain point, you'll have to decide for yourself which is the best course of action for you and your family. If the kids are not feeling it anymore...then you'll know what to do.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Every time I bring up my POV on this subject it's usually met with disdain from the same few people (who are backers) that want to somehow save me from PB and show me and others how wrong we are to support the game we love. You guys funded a game...but it doesn't entitle them tell me how I should feel about the game and whether or not to support the game...even if the PB are handling it like a bunch of newbs. Which is an understatement.
Yes, as a backer you have a right to complain about how things were handled. Piss and moan about how dumb PB is. Believe me, I'm with you on that What you don't have a right to do is tell people how they should feel about the game...or sour the experience of others to the game or head off any potential interest in the game...when it's their choice whether or not they want to support and play the game.
As long as the pointing and laughing is directed at the responsible party that created this mess...sure. But for us guys playing the game, contributing to the game, and getting others on board? No you don't get to do that..LOL.
You've mentioned this often in your last couple posts. Heck, you mentioned it essentially three times in your response to me. I'd like for you to point out where people are doing this? Because I'm simply not seeing it. While Mike has gotten into heated discussions about various things, he's been met with pretty much universal approval over his attempt to bring further interest to this game. Jaymz was treated similarly for his work, from what I saw.
People are voicing their opinion about Palladium. People are disagreeing with your optimism that Wave 2 will happen (yes, they have no solid proof PB won't, but you've got no solid proof they will). Some people agree that it will happen, but it won't be enough to save it (which is a sentiment you seem to share, at least in part). But I'm seeing very little that seems to show what you're claiming is happening. There's a gulf of difference from dissuading someone from playing a game, and attacking the company that you admit is fething things up. Unless you're seeing talk of legal action as some kind of personal attack to make you feel you shouldn't play, I'm not seeing the hostility you're describing being directed at the players. It's possibly coming from Rick/Asterios, but he definitely doesn't speak for everyone, and even people who might otherwise agree with him, think he's kind of a tool sometimes when he goes all "fire and brimstone" on Palladium (No offence intended, Rick. ). You seem to be defending an issue that noone is attacking. If I'm wrong, feel free to point it out.
So a couple months ago it was the end of this year, then it was end of March '16, now it's end of June '16? I'm not waiting that long for them to finish. What kind of moron would even talk that way about a project so far beyond its release date? "Keep the faith"? Is that some strange Michigan way of saying "Forcibly polish my bell-end"?
Hey I get it. Everyone has limits to their patience.
and what does it say about you, when you are the only one who is supporting PB? ask yourself this, not even PB defends themselves, you are their only defense here and most likely elsewhere, we have danced this dance many times, and yet its PB's own inactions which have reduced their supporters of this game to a single individual.
You are mistaken. At what point have I defended PBs handling of this project? How many times do I have to repeat it? They've botched this thing horribly. But I've managed to live with it. Sorry if my tolerance for stupidity is higher than yours. In the meantime, I still get to play the game and enjoy it. What I object to is that some how you have decided that you have moral authority in how people should treat this game...and the company that provides it. There are many people who probably like and enjoy this game and avoid any forums. Half of the people I play with do not visit any forums..as they find them to be a waste of time. (a bunch of bitchly little girls they call us forum folk). Does that make them wrong? Out of the 5000+ backers I've seen online.. maybe 20 of them express the type of displeasure you display. Most others are like me...cautiously optimistic...and want to see wave 2 and want info on wave 2. Others simply don't care and will wait it out. The bottom line is that I have a regular crew of people I play this game with. I've recruited 4 more...so from where I sit...more people are playing this game than there were 3 months ago. How many people are playing by you? Maybe that's what bothers you most? I don't know. So to say that I'll be the only one left is laughable. Don't forget..many people that buy PB stuff don't give a crap about this game. I have several friends that play the other PBRPGs...but hate Robotech. Are they bad people too because they like Dead Reign and therefore support a PB product?
20? you better go count again, that number has far exceeded 20, as to your defending PB seriously are you that deluded, the mere fact you keep thinking and saying PB will produce wave 2 is defending them, and defending them blindly since their is no evidence that they will ever do wave 2, since their is no evidence they have even done anything on wave 2.
as to PB product, its non-existant around here, nobody plays it and most have never heard of them.
as to PB being late on product, did people pay already for product that has so far taken over 2 years to get out? and almost 2 years from the date Pb said it would be out?, you are nothing but a freaking joke, you come on here saying we should not be angry and yet you have not a single dime into the kickstarter, you are pathetic in your defense and i'm thru trying to make you see reality since you are nothing but a PB mouth piece defending them on something you have not put your money into on product you have yet to receive.
Also we are not out to warn people away from PB i'm here to let people know PB is going down like the liars and thieves they are.
as it goes you have friends to play the game with whoopdedoo, have fun, not stopping you, my only plan is to destroy PB.
CaptKaruthors wrote: I understand your situation and sympathize. I grew up dirt poor. Let me ask you this..did you know anything about PB and their track record before committing to the KS? A little research would reveal that they suck at delivering on time. Thus, anyone that chose to back the KS made their choice.
Not that old chestnut again. You'll find a lot of backers DID do the research into PB (or knew about it already), and were skeptical. But the general tone at the time of the Kickstarter was that Ninja Division was going to do the bulk of the work, and Palladium was going to handle the licensing and the liaison with Harmony Gold. It only became apparent MUCH later, that this was simply not the case. I know I'd have gone in for ~10% of what I did, if I thought PB were even equal partners in this endeavor, let alone the people seemingly in charge of development. Once the campaign ended, and it was too late to withdraw, there was a tonal shift. And then after the Pledge Manager concluded, only then was it clear exactly what the situation was, or at least had become. Whether it was the plan from the start, or whether Ninja Division walked (or were pushed) after the campaign finished, that was not what was happening publicly while they were still collecting money.
You've mentioned this often in your last couple posts. Heck, you mentioned it essentially three times in your response to me. I'd like for you to point out where people are doing this? Because I'm simply not seeing it. While Mike has gotten into heated discussions about various things, he's been met with pretty much universal approval over his attempt to bring further interest to this game. Jaymz was treated similarly for his work, from what I saw.
It's the general attitude towards my opinions..it's the vibe I get in people's posts.
People are voicing their opinion about Palladium.
Yes and if I voice my opinion I get called out. That's my point. Why? If people don't agree...fine. Ignore my posts. Taking me to task over my outlook on the game and how PB is handling things is silly. You can hate how a company does things...and still like their products. I hate how Apple does things...but I still use iTunes and love Apple TV..LOL.
People are disagreeing with your optimism that Wave 2 will happen (yes, they have no solid proof PB won't, but you've got no solid proof they will).
Some people have flat out told me it isn't going to happen. I'm not going to name names...they know who they are. While I don't have proof...neither do they, but they speak as if they have all the answers. They don't...and I certainly have not claimed as such.
Some people agree that it will happen, but it won't be enough to save it (which is a sentiment you seem to share, at least in part). But I'm seeing very little that seems to show what you're claiming is happening.
I'm too tired to dig through various forums but examples do exist. I should be sleeping right now...I have to be up in 3.5 hours..but my brain won't shut off. Bah.
There's a gulf of difference from dissuading someone from playing a game, and attacking the company that you admit is fething things up.
Again, I'm too tired to find all these posts in forums..but it has happened. Somehow people wanting support for game means supporting PB and that somehow equals bad. I've seen it. There are examples of it here.
Unless you're seeing talk of legal action as some kind of personal attack to make you feel you shouldn't play, I'm not seeing the hostility you're describing being directed at the players.
I don't care if people want to take legal action against palladium...that's their choice. However, don't expect me to support that cause...because I won't. It damages the potential existence of the game I like. That's where people who think like that and I part ways.
It's possibly coming from Rick/Asterios, but he definitely doesn't speak for everyone, and even people who might otherwise agree with him, think he's kind of a tool sometimes when he goes all "fire and brimstone" on Palladium (No offence intended, Rick. ).
Yes, he's been hostile to me because I choose to not support his opinion on the matter...and has ridiculed me for it. However, I haven't really told him to stop with his plans either. I just don't think he's going to be satisfied with the results if it reaches a courtroom...and for that I'm an object of his scorn. Meh. I care not.
You seem to be defending an issue that noone is attacking. If I'm wrong, feel free to point it out.
It could be that I've been up too long...nearly 25 hours. LOL. Who knows.
It's possibly coming from Rick/Asterios, but he definitely doesn't speak for everyone, and even people who might otherwise agree with him, think he's kind of a tool sometimes when he goes all "fire and brimstone" on Palladium (No offence intended, Rick. ).
Yes, he's been hostile to me because I choose to not support his opinion on the matter...and has ridiculed me for it. However, I haven't really told him to stop with his plans either. I just don't think he's going to be satisfied with the results if it reaches a courtroom...and for that I'm an object of his scorn. Meh. I care not.
No I am hostile towards you, because you attacked me with no provocation, I did not go after you, you went after me, you went after me for the mere fact I want to destroy your precious PB that is why you attacked me plain and simple, I never said anything about you and your friends playing the game or anything, and yet you come on here saying you support the game here and there, and yet I've shown more support for the game on these forums then you have with your lip service.
your nothing but a troll trying to stir things up so go back under your bridge troll i'm thru playing with you.
20? you better go count again, that number has far exceeded 20, as to your defending PB seriously are you that deluded, the mere fact you keep thinking and saying PB will produce wave 2 is defending them, and defending them blindly since their is no evidence that they will ever do wave 2, since their is no evidence they have even done anything on wave 2.
BWAHAHAH! Ok, how about you count for me then. Obviously, this is a personal crusade for you. Really, I think you need to seek counseling for this...as it sounds borderline obsessive. Me thinking they will produce wave 2 isn't defending them you dolt...it's stating an opinion base on past experience with them. Let me ask you this...it's obvious that this is the first time you've dealt with PB...that much is certain...you've obviously never had to wait for an RPG book or other releases from them. While they suck at timeliness they do usually deliver the product they plan in releasing if it's to the point in the development process that Robotech is in. Furthermore, other that speculation...you have no evidence either as to whether wave 2 is coming so back off dude...as you know just as much as I do about wave 2.
as to PB product, its non-existant around here, nobody plays it and most have never heard of them.
Well I'm sorry to hear that. It also reinforces my thoughts on your lack of background of PB. Good to know.
as to PB being late on product, did people pay already for product that has so far taken over 2 years to get out? and almost 2 years from the date Pb said it would be out?
Yes, this has happened before. With both Rifts: Lemuria and Northern Gun books. Guess what? Those books finally came out and the people that crowd sourced them got their books. So if anything, there is precedence that they will in fact deliver a wave 2. When that is we don't know. However, there is clear evidence that they have honored backers before. So again step off dude...as you are obviously not aware of PBs history.
you are nothing but a freaking joke, you come on here saying we should not be angry and yet you have not a single dime into the kickstarter, you are pathetic in your defense and i'm thru trying to make you see reality since you are nothing but a PB mouth piece defending them on something you have not put your money into on product you have yet to receive.
Ok, I'm at the point where I give you the finger. You're an obtuse fool that is blinded by rage that has lost all sense of objectivity in this matter. Guess what? I've probably have spent more on this game than you. I also play this game do you? It sounds to me like you don't...so don't preach to me about investment in this game. I probably have exceeded many dollar amounts of backer money in supporting this game. So I did it at retail..so what? I waited just as long...if not longer to get my stuff than a backer did. I also paid more for it bozo...so drop the high and mightiness. Are you pissed because I made a better choice at avoiding backing the KS? Is that it? What is it then? Nevermind, I don't care what you think. You're dead to me. At this point, I don't give a crap if you're a backer or not...you are not entitled to tell me or anyone else how to feel about this game or the company that sells it. You are clearly not in reality because the reality is you have completely lost it and are now demonizing someone that was in your corner. Now? Forget it. Your arrogance in this matter is astonishing. You really need to check your ego at the door bud. You act is if you are somehow better than me. Well guess what? %*$# that.
Also we are not out to warn people away from PB i'm here to let people know PB is going down like the liars and thieves they are.
And you know what? Good luck with that kiddo. Like I said, this isn't the first legal wrangle PB has had to deal with...so your overconfidence in this matter again astonishes me. It's pretty safe to say..they aren't going anywhere. But good luck on your crusade to save us from PB. you must also be the type that thinks vaping is really smoking and that 3rd hand smoke exists....LOL. You also probably think that 9/11 was an inside job.
as it goes you have friends to play the game with whoopdedoo, have fun, not stopping you, my only plan is to destroy PB.
And you will fail my friend. There have been people for nearly 30 years trying to destroy PB. LOL. The only people that will end PB is PB...not some crazy person like you.
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No I am hostile towards you, because you attacked me with no provocation, I did not go after you, you went after me, you went after me for the mere fact I want to destroy your precious PB that is why you attacked me plain and simple
Lolz. You might want to look again dude. You fired shots at me first. I simply tried to have an adult conversation with you. Your the one that started the name calling first. I believe you said I was a bad human being or some such nonsense. Oh yes...PB is soooo precious to me...that I constantly are criticizing their decisions. Yeah..real precious. Actually I just tolerate stupid more/better than you. I know what I'm getting with PB. You obviously do not...thus the rage. Live and learn buddy.
shown more support for the game on these forums then you have with your lip service.
Yeah by showing off horribly sculpted models and teasing people with stuff they can't have...your a hero. Meanwhile, I've actually created stuff people can use. But whatever. Who's counting, right?
your nothing but a troll trying to stir things up so go back under your bridge troll i'm thru playing with you.
Ok, time to switch to decaf...or seek treatment for your obsessive vendetta to destroy PB. It will only eat you up inside man...most people would just simply sell their stuff and move on.
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Not that old chestnut again. You'll find a lot of backers DID do the research into PB (or knew about it already), and were skeptical. But the general tone at the time of the Kickstarter was that Ninja Division was going to do the bulk of the work, and Palladium was going to handle the licensing and the liaison with Harmony Gold. It only became apparent MUCH later, that this was simply not the case. I know I'd have gone in for ~10% of what I did, if I thought PB were even equal partners in this endeavor, let alone the people seemingly in charge of development. Once the campaign ended, and it was too late to withdraw, there was a tonal shift. And then after the Pledge Manager concluded, only then was it clear exactly what the situation was, or at least had become. Whether it was the plan from the start, or whether Ninja Division walked (or were pushed) after the campaign finished, that was not what was happening publicly while they were still collecting money.
Anyone that is aware of PB history should know that any partnership they have with other companies leads to bad things. The Manhunter books, the CCG, the N-Gage, etc. As soon as I knew that PB had oversight into the development of the game...I was skeptical and opted out. So I guess I'm an donkey cave for recognizing that. All I can say is that I'm sorry people got burned...and I hope that wave 2 comes out and it appeases the backers. I also am genuinely glad that you made a smart decision to get your money back in selling off your stuff when you had the instincts that something was amiss. I just wish more people would take your pragmatic approach.
And I'm terribly sorry that I don't have a full legal department to do the full due diligence for me.
Yes, I had bought a number of the old systems from PB back in the day [Robotech, TMNT, Ninjas & Superspies, etc.] but fell for the Bait and Switch routine that PB came out with by using ND as a front for developing a type of game PB themselves had NO experience in. That makes me some sort of Delta Grade idiot?
At least I'll have plenty of company with all the other backers that fell for the same trick. I hope you are getting enough air up there on the moral high ground!
I don't care if you knew everything there is to know about PB, or nothing at all. It doesn't matter and it doesn't change their responsibility to the backer to either get the remains of their KS out to the backers, or to offer refunds of the outstanding monies.
The timeframe we have been waiting would not have been acceptable to any financial institution, and it is obvious that PB were using KS as a means to access money they wouldn't have had otherwise.. Well, they've had the benefit of that money for years without having to pay us a cent in interest - but I seriously doubt they'll be able to pull that trick again.
And what does a bank do when you don't pay them for 2 years? They foreclose! Don't bitch when some of the backers want to do the same. I don't see a bank looking as kindly on PB as most of the backers have so far.
It's so tempting to purchase a Christmas surprise package and request wave two as the contents. Christmas surprise package.
Has anyone else thought of buying a Christmas surprise package? Or plan on buying a Christmas surprise package for their loved ones? Or hiring a plane to write Christmas surprise package in the sky? Have you seen the yellow sign?
20? you better go count again, that number has far exceeded 20, as to your defending PB seriously are you that deluded, the mere fact you keep thinking and saying PB will produce wave 2 is defending them, and defending them blindly since their is no evidence that they will ever do wave 2, since their is no evidence they have even done anything on wave 2.
20? We've doubled that since and are fast approaching 50! No idea about the actual numbers. I will say that I stopped guessing about the silent majority with the (completely unnecessarily) sham gencon vote that was a (shocking for me) landslide in Palladium's favor. I really didn't expect so many people to allow Palladium to shaft them when they had such a long history of being douchy and incompetent. In reality, we don't really speak as the vocal minority for anyone but ourselves. Hell, after a year of delays, even the gencon vote IIRC only got a bit over a quarter of folks to bother posting a one word answer vote. I suspect the number of folks who care year and a half after that is even lower and the real response to palladium's endless delays is apathy, not anger. I may be wrong but wasn't the vote turnout for the scale question less than half that of the gencon vote? And then add another year's worth of attrition IF they meet their Q2 2016 pie in the sky thrown dart at the unused dusty wall calendar date.
Joyboozer wrote: It's so tempting to purchase a Christmas surprise package and request wave two as the contents. Christmas surprise package.
Has anyone else thought of buying a Christmas surprise package? Or plan on buying a Christmas surprise package for their loved ones? Or hiring a plane to write Christmas surprise package in the sky? Have you seen the yellow sign?
Bwahahahahaa!! Oh man that would be awesome...someone should do that. LOL. Classic. Someone should hire a plane to circle over their offices with a sign behind it that says: Wave 2 info please...or something like that. I know a guy in florida that has a business of flying banners on planes...but too bad it's in MI and not FL. Oh well.
Yes, this has happened before. With both Rifts: Lemuria and Northern Gun books. Guess what? Those books finally came out and the people that crowd sourced them got their books. So if anything, there is precedence that they will in fact deliver a wave
While I suspect nothing will break Lemuria's 15 year time-from-advertising-and-taking-preorders-until-delivery record, it wasn't technically crowdfunded. As of this month, RRPGT has broken the Northern Gun's duo of books crowdfunding delay record. IIRC NG2 was just under 2 years late and the first was a few months over 1 year late so they roughly correspond to the RRPGT waves... except that we have no hope of Wave 2 for at least another 6 months and that is with your optimistic view of Palladium's progress.
Also, at this point, maybe you and Asterios should just hit that handy dandy ignore function button on each other. I don't think there is going to end up being any kind of middle ground consensus reached between you both.
Think about it from a production perspective. PB said they have been talking to their broker or their manufacturer on the parts. Some issues here and there. And now PB is saying that they took a hiatus to work on other product lines?
Seriously, which plastic manufacturer would be willing to sit idly by waiting for PB for a few weeks? They would be pursuing other lines of work to keep their production running efficiently. If PB takes a break for a few weeks and not keep pushing the manufacturer, their "slot" would get taken out of the chain and pushed back, leading to a knock on effect of delays. Q2 2016 would be a generous estimate.
If I took the PB mentality to my work, my boss would have crucified AND fired me years ago. These guys are incredibly out of touch.
Yes, this has happened before. With both Rifts: Lemuria and Northern Gun books. Guess what? Those books finally came out and the people that crowd sourced them got their books. So if anything, there is precedence that they will in fact deliver a wave
It's a lot easier to write a RPG source book than it is to manufacture wave 2 in hard plastic. I mean seriously, is that your best comparison? What a joke
I understand your situation and sympathize. I grew up dirt poor. Let me ask you this..did you know anything about PB and their track record before committing to the KS? A little research would reveal that they suck at delivering on time. Thus, anyone that chose to back the KS made their choice. I can't be responsible for your misfortune...so don't treat me as such. Whether my gaming budget is bigger is irrelevant. Actually, to fund my purchases..I sold some 40k stuff and other personal belongings to get what I wanted. My price insensitivity comes from my willingness to do what it takes to get the models I need. Maybe I have to sell some of my artwork, other models I don't use, or whatever. My suggestion if you are not satisfied with the whole KS and PB wave 2 debacle is to sell what you have got and try to get as much of your money back as you can. OR keep what you have and play the game and enjoy it..and wait for the rest of the stuff to arrive. At a certain point, you'll have to decide for yourself which is the best course of action for you and your family. If the kids are not feeling it anymore...then you'll know what to do.
Wow, are you a arse on purpose or does it just come naturally? You probably need to step back a bit and think before you respond. Hell, man, I even told you I wasn't on the Bash the Cap bus and you come at me like that...wow. Moving beyond you, oh so subtly, insinuating that I'm an uneducated twit I will respond;
No, I in fact did not know of PB's release schedule issues, how could I have? The interesting games produced by them I already owned; TMNT, Robotech, and the PBRPG. I have no interest in Rifts or any other offering by them so my knowledge was limited to the fact that they produced the only Robotech-centric table-top game. Once you own every source book and core book there is no reason to pay attention to the company. I didn't bother with the second edition stuff, my books were bought back in the early 90s and still worked fine.
The Kickstarter project led me to believe that a separate company was handling miniature design and production and PB were just the money and IP, not the managers. With those facts in hand I happily paid out to have the only Robotech based war game ever produced added to my collection. The information provided during the campaign led people to believe that design of the product was already near completion and delivery would be on time. When there were delays I was annoyed, but I'm a Kickstarter vet and just last month received delivery of a project that ran a year over past the due date. Now let me tell you why I'm not upset at that project;
They didn't lie to me.
There were updates on a regular schedule. The project creator made videos showing the current status. There were receipts shown proving the money was spent on the intended product. When there was a hiccup the backers were informed within days. If PB gave half a whit they would have done half as much and kept me loyal and quiet. Due to the repeated promises of a comprehensive update soon, without any pretense of actual delivery of said update, the company has turned me against them. I'm now vocal, I'm angry, I want updates on schedule and relevant to the project's current status. I do not subscribe to the weekly adletter so the last time I saw an update on the project officially and according to the Kickstarter TOS was 06OCT15 and that was a rules revision.
I don't want PB to go out of business. I want the figures I paid for. You can go ahead and enjoy playing with your group, I'm glad you have people who want to play. My intent was to run the game with my kids, but that's pretty hard when half the figures haven't been delivered. It's like playing chess without your queen, one rook, and two pawns. Can you do it? Certainly! The amount of strategy you have available to you is sorely limited, but you could play.
I would like to add that if you can't respond to me without insult(I consider us even now that I've sent that earlier jibe your way) then I respectfully request you respond to the thread in general instead of me personally.
And I'm terribly sorry that I don't have a full legal department to do the full due diligence for me.
Neither do I. For me, the decision came about through their illustrious track record of being late for everything...and I mean everything. I think even the launch of the Core book of Rifts was late as I recall...and that was and still is their flagship game. Basically, PB only gets my money when I see tangible product. Otherwise, they get no dollars from me.
Yes, I had bought a number of the old systems from PB back in the day [Robotech, TMNT, Ninjas & Superspies, etc.] but fell for the Bait and Switch routine that PB came out with by using ND as a front for developing a type of game PB themselves had NO experience in. That makes me some sort of Delta Grade idiot?
No it certainly doesn't make you an idiot. It just makes you far too trusting...which isn't a bad quality to have. But sometimes, it sucks.
At least I'll have plenty of company with all the other backers that fell for the same trick. I hope you are getting enough air up there on the moral high ground!
If you want to talk about moral high ground it won't come from me...I'm not going around saying I told you so to everyone. That would be taking the moral high ground.
I don't care if you knew everything there is to know about PB, or nothing at all. It doesn't matter and it doesn't change their responsibility to the backer to either get the remains of their KS out to the backers, or to offer refunds of the outstanding monies.
I'm not saying they aren't responsible for fulfilling their obligations. In fact, I've been on the record to say that they should fulfill their obligations and get a move on wave 2. Wave 2 should be the primary focus of the company if they want it to be a flagship product...NOT the two RPG books and the combo-rifter they are currently working on. The math as far as long term returns...makes more sense to make Robotech a flagship game and doing it right. Unfortunately...to PBs detriment...they didn't/ don't see it that way. I chalk that up to being completely in over their head in committing to a project of this scope without a serious and solid partnership with people that know what they are doing. That's partly HG's fault as they are limited in what they can do with the Robotech License..so much so that they had to tie the game to the RPG in some fashion just to get it off the ground. Completion of Wave 2 should take precedence over all the stuff in their production schedule. I've also repeatedly say that they should be supporting the game better on their own FN website...they aren't doing that either. Many people will see that I'm not a PB white knight. However, I'm not going to go on a witch hunt to end the company...why? They are doing fine by themselves in that regard. They'll either sink or swim. In the meantime..they are the stewards of games I like. I'm not suddenly going to stop playing the games because of my differences of opinion on how they should run things. I hate how Apple does things...but I still use iTunes and Apple TV. You can have issues with a company and still enjoy their product offerings. The two aren't mutually exclusive. :shrug: Me supporting this game by buying things isn't defending them either. Again, they'll fail as a business on their own merits. However, if wave 2 doesn't get released...I won't give them my money anymore as that demonstrates their lack of commitment to the game. I'll spend my hobby dollars elsewhere. I did the same thing with GW. I play 40k, but I haven't given GW a cent in nearly two years. Why? Because they aren't supporting the game in the manner in which I like...thus they don't get my money. But I'm not going to launch a campaign to try to shut them down either.
The timeframe we have been waiting would not have been acceptable to any financial institution, and it is obvious that PB were using KS as a means to access money they wouldn't have had otherwise.. Well, they've had the benefit of that money for years without having to pay us a cent in interest - but I seriously doubt they'll be able to pull that trick again.
That is part of the problems I have with KS and crowdsourcing in general. Private investors are looking for a monetary return on their investment...that is what is the primary motivation for people to produce for investors. If they don't, they loose their investment money..and in most cases are doomed. With KS and crowdsourcing your return on investment is product...not money. To me, that's not good enough...which is why I don't participate in them. A company shouldn't have to seek out a revenue stream from people they intend to sell product to. If they want a product to be launched...do it the right way...and get your own funding...not take what is essentially handouts on the promise that something will get made. That is why I waited to buy the game at retail.
And what does a bank do when you don't pay them for 2 years? They foreclose! Don't bitch when some of the backers want to do the same. I don't see a bank looking as kindly on PB as most of the backers have so far.
I'm not bitching about backers being angry. Go ahead and be angry. You are right to be angry. What I don't like is that some backers feel somehow they have the moral authority to tell me or others on how we should feel about all of this...and if we don't share their opinion that somehow we are part of the problem. That's nonsense. Me buying boxset after boxset of a game that is sold at retail isn't being part of the problem. If anything, it keeps the game active...and for me that's my goal. I don't want this game to be a flash in the pan...nor do I want to see it end. So yes, I'll keep buying the models..and anything that pertains to my enjoyment of the game and getting more players playing the game. I'm sorry that others don't understand that. That's not my problem.
JohnHwangDD wrote: OK, someone help here, but isn't the only reason NG out because PB misappropriated funds from RRT, funds that should have been earmarked for Wave 2?
That is the general consensus, but I couldn't prove it, and I'm sure no one else can either. The timing is surely suspect though.
Just to satisfy my own morbid curiosity, can someone summarize how and why ND was cut out of the picture? I wasn't paying attention at that point in time.
20? you better go count again, that number has far exceeded 20, as to your defending PB seriously are you that deluded, the mere fact you keep thinking and saying PB will produce wave 2 is defending them, and defending them blindly since their is no evidence that they will ever do wave 2, since their is no evidence they have even done anything on wave 2.
20? We've doubled that since and are fast approaching 50! No idea about the actual numbers. I will say that I stopped guessing about the silent majority with the (completely unnecessarily) sham gencon vote that was a (shocking for me) landslide in Palladium's favor. I really didn't expect so many people to allow Palladium to shaft them when they had such a long history of being douchy and incompetent. In reality, we don't really speak as the vocal minority for anyone but ourselves. Hell, after a year of delays, even the gencon vote IIRC only got a bit over a quarter of folks to bother posting a one word answer vote. I suspect the number of folks who care year and a half after that is even lower and the real response to palladium's endless delays is apathy, not anger. I may be wrong but wasn't the vote turnout for the scale question less than half that of the gencon vote? And then add another year's worth of attrition IF they meet their Q2 2016 pie in the sky thrown dart at the unused dusty wall calendar date.
and that is what PB is hoping for is apathy from the backers, but whether the backers show apathy or not will not matter, I shall not, PB should have really taken care to look into their own states laws, and with what Kevin posted as a response he basically set himself up being screwed.
Wow, are you a arse on purpose or does it just come naturally? You probably need to step back a bit and think before you respond. Hell, man, I even told you I wasn't on the Bash the Cap bus and you come at me like that...wow. Moving beyond you, oh so subtly, insinuating that I'm an uneducated twit I will respond;
I'm not insinuating anything. If you think that way, I'm sorry.
No, I in fact did not know of PB's release schedule issues, how could I have? The interesting games produced by them I already owned; TMNT, Robotech, and the PBRPG. I have no interest in Rifts or any other offering by them so my knowledge was limited to the fact that they produced the only Robotech-centric table-top game.
Their lateness and constant delays extended well past Rifts in to their other games systems. If you were buying the books at the time you probably dealt with it and either you forgot..or it didn't quite impact you the way this KS did. I'm not saying your an uneducated twit. Those are your words. Not mine. People tend to forget things they experienced. It happens.
Once you own every source book and core book there is no reason to pay attention to the company. I didn't bother with the second edition stuff, my books were bought back in the early 90s and still worked fine.
This part I don't understand..I too own "every source book and core book" but they still make books for all those game systems you described. I guess I'm guilty of following what they've been doing more closely than others. Again, you aren't an uneducated twit.
The Kickstarter project led me to believe that a separate company was handling miniature design and production and PB were just the money and IP, not the managers. With those facts in hand I happily paid out to have the only Robotech based war game ever produced added to my collection. The information provided during the campaign led people to believe that design of the product was already near completion and delivery would be on time.
And this is where my outlook differs from yours at the onset of the Robotech project. Once I knew that PB and to a lesser extent HG had their hands on the management and money part...I opted out. Never in PBs history has there been a successful partnership with another company. Not one. So I'm sorry that you were mislead into doing the KS when perhaps if you knew about their track record with working with a partner you would have not done it. The level of involvement of who was suppose to be responsible for what parts was/has never really been communicated to us. We've only heard PB's side of the story. ND has decided to stay mum on the subject..even going so far as to not even make mention of this game on their own website, etc. I guess we'll never know. What I do know is that PB has never once demonstrated a successful partnership in any joint project they've done.
When there were delays I was annoyed, but I'm a Kickstarter vet and just last month received delivery of a project that ran a year over past the due date. Now let me tell you why I'm not upset at that project;
They didn't lie to me.
There were updates on a regular schedule. The project creator made videos showing the current status. There were receipts shown proving the money was spent on the intended product. When there was a hiccup the backers were informed within days. If PB gave half a whit they would have done half as much and kept me loyal and quiet. Due to the repeated promises of a comprehensive update soon, without any pretense of actual delivery of said update, the company has turned me against them. I'm now vocal, I'm angry, I want updates on schedule and relevant to the project's current status. I do not subscribe to the weekly adletter so the last time I saw an update on the project officially and according to the Kickstarter TOS was 06OCT15 and that was a rules revision.
And you have every right to be angry. I don't like it either. I want updates to. The only thing I can tell you is that they did in fact complete their obligations to other crowd sourced projects...with the regular PB delays. Yes it's taking long, yes they haven't kept a realistic schedule. But they did deliver the product to their backers at the time. That's the best I can tell you. If PB doesn't deliver on wave 2 and whatever, I'll be the first to say I was wrong.
I don't want PB to go out of business. I want the figures I paid for. You can go ahead and enjoy playing with your group, I'm glad you have people who want to play. My intent was to run the game with my kids, but that's pretty hard when half the figures haven't been delivered. It's like playing chess without your queen, one rook, and two pawns. Can you do it? Certainly! The amount of strategy you have available to you is sorely limited, but you could play.
I understand your point. Believe me, I'd like to play with Gnerls as any space battle you play right now is heavily weighted towards the UEDF.
I would like to add that if you can't respond to me without insult(I consider us even now that I've sent that earlier jibe your way) then I respectfully request you respond to the thread in general instead of me personally.[/quoite]
This is my last response to you. I have no issues with you and I think i've said all I can in regards to your post.
Think about it from a production perspective. PB said they have been talking to their broker or their manufacturer on the parts. Some issues here and there. And now PB is saying that they took a hiatus to work on other product lines?
Seriously, which plastic manufacturer would be willing to sit idly by waiting for PB for a few weeks? They would be pursuing other lines of work to keep their production running efficiently. If PB takes a break for a few weeks and not keep pushing the manufacturer, their "slot" would get taken out of the chain and pushed back, leading to a knock on effect of delays. Q2 2016 would be a generous estimate.
If I took the PB mentality to my work, my boss would have crucified AND fired me years ago. These guys are incredibly out of touch.
Agreed. However, theymay have switch factories that has capacity to do their project. We simply don't know. Most factories I deal with in China right now are clamoring for booking space before Chinese new year...so we have something in the pipeline before then. This will allow my company to see first samples by Jan 1. For items requiring tooling...it may be a little longer. However, our delivery date for this stuff is Summer of 2016.
Even with the "it would be ideal" bit of wiggle room, it does seem like they're putting a good chunk of eggs in that Q2 basket.
As I noted above, it'd give them something new to hopefully hock at Gencon, and even if they went with a discount again they'd still be getting more from sales than wholesale.
I'm going to guess it'll be their biggest opportunity to earn the best profit per unit of the year. It'll be about Hype(tm) and Buzz(c) and Taking Advantage Of So Many Anime Nerds In One Place For Four Days(r).
Note, I'm simply recognizing that it's a prime time to WANT to have things on hand. I am by NO MEANS stating that they'll actually pull it off. Simply recognizing that IF they were going to take the plunge (go get a loan, do a giant firesale to turn every last book and mousepad they can into hard cash, beg the Fan Friends for donations, whatever), that would be it.
If they miss Gencon, there's no reason to rush until Black Friday 4 months later, and if that's the case then RoW might be waiting well into 2017, as we saw with wave 1's shenanigans.
This stuff isn't done in a vacuum, it's not like they'll punch out tens of thousands of sprues and have them just appear in the warehouse, there's lead time; factory slot booked, molds milled (and I'm not in plastics production, but two dozen'ish molds seems like a lot of work, especially with the revisions they did in wave 1), shipping to arrange, etc, etc. Not a comprehensive list by any means, but until they start lining up things like that firmly, believing the hot air they spout just isn't sensible.
Again to look at wave 1; they were taking short solicit pre-orders roughly half a year before the December 2013 target. If they aren't reaching out to distributors/retailers by the end of the year, we can already pretty firmly call shenanigans on their Q2 target.
As much as they don't want to say anything, we have come to see that what they don't say, or what they say to others, can be just as important. Whether they want to give us firm dates or not, Alliance Distributions and other shops/companies have a need to know, and so the cat will be out of the bag eventually.
Yes, this has happened before. With both Rifts: Lemuria and Northern Gun books. Guess what? Those books finally came out and the people that crowd sourced them got their books. So if anything, there is precedence that they will in fact deliver a wave
It's a lot easier to write a RPG source book than it is to manufacture wave 2 in hard plastic. I mean seriously, is that your best comparison? What a joke
Lolz. with the delays and the staffing problems they have? Writing those books took longer. Lemuria was pitched back in the late 90's and early 00's. It was finally completed via crowdsourcing several years ago. Lemuria took a while. Northern Gun was suppose to be one book..then became two. That also took a long time. My point is that everything PB does is delayed. But the precedence of delivering to backers is on the record. If you weren't around during that time you wouldn't know how long it took. It was painfully long. So the comparison remains. Does it make it right? No. It didn't then...and it doesn't now. However, people are assuming that wave 2 will never get completed. I'm saying...never say never unless there is irrefutable proof...of which..there isn't. So I guess I'm left with waiting and seeing like I had to with those other books.
Lynx7725 wrote: Just to satisfy my own morbid curiosity, can someone summarize how and why ND was cut out of the picture? I wasn't paying attention at that point in time.
ND was not cut out of the picture, they were hired to do the designs and they have been done with that job since last year (yeah PB has been sitting on the wave 2 designs for a year), once ND's job was done their contract with PB was over and was not going to be renewed.
Lynx7725 wrote: Just to satisfy my own morbid curiosity, can someone summarize how and why ND was cut out of the picture? I wasn't paying attention at that point in time.
There's been no official statement from either firm on the matter.
As far as I can tell, ND's responsibility ended with the initial design work - the virtual sculpts - the majority of which appear to have been completed prior to the KS campaign. They've certainly not been notably involved in any way since the closure of the campaign.
It is unclear as to whether this extended to delivering production-ready files that could be used for milling, or if the delivered files were intended for a specific factory which for some reason PB didn't use.
It is unclear when ND's part was paid for or where the funds for that came from - presumably the KS campaign.
Edit:
Even to have a manufacturing slot booked for Q2 would mean that a substantial portion of the plastic Wave 2 models are ready to go - sprue layouts finalised, test shots done and tweaking of the milling / polishing underway.
Resin production of the pieces needed is likely to take several months, so you should take it as read that the master sculpts for all of those should be ready right now.
Forar wrote: Again to look at wave 1; they were taking short solicit pre-orders roughly half a year before the December 2013 target. If they aren't reaching out to distributors/retailers by the end of the year, we can already pretty firmly call shenanigans on their Q2 target.
actually wave 1 stuff was on pre-order about a year before it actually was released.
Lynx7725 wrote: Just to satisfy my own morbid curiosity, can someone summarize how and why ND was cut out of the picture? I wasn't paying attention at that point in time.
There's been no official statement from either firm on the matter.
As far as I can tell, ND's responsibility ended with the initial design work - the virtual sculpts - the majority of which appear to have been completed prior to the KS campaign. They've certainly not been notably involved in any way since the closure of the campaign.
It is unclear as to whether this extended to delivering production-ready files that could be used for milling, or if the delivered files were intended for a specific factory which for some reason PB didn't use.
It is unclear when ND's part was paid for or where the funds for that came from - presumably the KS campaign.
Edit:
Even to have a manufacturing slot booked for Q2 would mean that a substantial portion of the plastic Wave 2 models are ready to go - sprue layouts finalised, test shots done and tweaking of the milling / polishing underway.
Resin production of the pieces needed is likely to take several months, so you should take it as read that the master sculpts for all of those should be ready right now.
It is highly unlikely that Q2 will happen.
actually it is clear ND had posted on their site in response to a query to them what their job description was and that they were done, this was over a year ago, and ND posted that shortly after Wayne said he and Ninja John were still working on the designs, so odds are PB has ND in a NDA which also prevents ND from telling us the whole story, but they can get their point accross legally thru allaying the truth that can be told.
Forar wrote: Even with the "it would be ideal" bit of wiggle room, it does seem like they're putting a good chunk of eggs in that Q2 basket.
As I noted above, it'd give them something new to hopefully hock at Gencon, and even if they went with a discount again they'd still be getting more from sales than wholesale.
I'm going to guess it'll be their biggest opportunity to earn the best profit per unit of the year. It'll be about Hype(tm) and Buzz(c) and Taking Advantage Of So Many Anime Nerds In One Place For Four Days(r).
Note, I'm simply recognizing that it's a prime time to WANT to have things on hand. I am by NO MEANS stating that they'll actually pull it off. Simply recognizing that IF they were going to take the plunge (go get a loan, do a giant firesale to turn every last book and mousepad they can into hard cash, beg the Fan Friends for donations, whatever), that would be it.
If they miss Gencon, there's no reason to rush until Black Friday 4 months later, and if that's the case then RoW might be waiting well into 2017, as we saw with wave 1's shenanigans.
This stuff isn't done in a vacuum, it's not like they'll punch out tens of thousands of sprues and have them just appear in the warehouse, there's lead time; factory slot booked, molds milled (and I'm not in plastics production, but two dozen'ish molds seems like a lot of work, especially with the revisions they did in wave 1), shipping to arrange, etc, etc. Not a comprehensive list by any means, but until they start lining up things like that firmly, believing the hot air they spout just isn't sensible.
Again to look at wave 1; they were taking short solicit pre-orders roughly half a year before the December 2013 target. If they aren't reaching out to distributors/retailers by the end of the year, we can already pretty firmly call shenanigans on their Q2 target.
As much as they don't want to say anything, we have come to see that what they don't say, or what they say to others, can be just as important. Whether they want to give us firm dates or not, Alliance Distributions and other shops/companies have a need to know, and so the cat will be out of the bag eventually.
Agreed. The time to get this thing done is now. My work is booking with china factories right now to get samples before Chinese New Year. If they switch production methods...they may have a chance at hitting Q2. Who knows. But your assessment is spot on.
I think it's pretty safe to say the ND made some rookie mistakes when designing the miniatures for HIPS plastic production.
Not an insurmountable problem, but it probably required Palladium to manage the resolution. They would have either had to pay ND to re-design the figures, get a more expensive factory, and no matter what deal with another round of HG licensing approvals. To Palladium it probably went from being a push button money maker to actual work, and it looks like work is their kryptonite.
Forar wrote: Again to look at wave 1; they were taking short solicit pre-orders roughly half a year before the December 2013 target. If they aren't reaching out to distributors/retailers by the end of the year, we can already pretty firmly call shenanigans on their Q2 target.
actually wave 1 stuff was on pre-order about a year before it actually was released.
Read what I said again.
The short solicit pre orders happened half a year before it was originally due, June/July 2013 as I recall.
I'm not talking about the pre-orders on their website, I'm talking about when they started reaching out to retailers through Alliance Distributions to line up who wanted how much of what, or so is my understanding of the system. That's not about consumers, it's about gauging interest with retailers.
There's no 'ummm, actually' about it, we're talking about two entirely different things.
I swear, sometimes this thread reminds me of this.
Also, I find immense humour in the numbers lining up to indicate that their newest delivery target probably won't happen being immediately noticeable. Anyone who watched wave 1's development saw how long it took them to go from renders to molds to production to shipping across the ocean. It's not perfectly apples to apples, but guys, it took you 3 quarters to pull that off, and they were showing off renders and prototypes for months. Don't tell me you'll get more done in less time without *something* to back it up.
Forar wrote: Again to look at wave 1; they were taking short solicit pre-orders roughly half a year before the December 2013 target. If they aren't reaching out to distributors/retailers by the end of the year, we can already pretty firmly call shenanigans on their Q2 target.
actually wave 1 stuff was on pre-order about a year before it actually was released.
Read what I said again.
The short solicit pre orders happened half a year before it was originally due, June/July 2013 as I recall.
I'm not talking about the pre-orders on their website, I'm talking about when they started reaching out to retailers through Alliance Distributions to line up who wanted how much of what, or so is my understanding of the system. That's not about consumers, it's about gauging interest with retailers.
There's no 'ummm, actually' about it, we're talking about two entirely different things.
no I was talking about pre-orders thru other sites, other companies and retailers were taking pre-orders a year before it ever came out, and PB's dropping the ball there kind of pissed off the wholesalers and such.
Asterios wrote: no I was talking about pre-orders thru other sites, other companies and retailers were taking pre-orders a year before it ever came out, and PB's dropping the ball there kind of pissed off the wholesalers and such.
Again, you're talking about "a year before it came out", I'm talking about "before the original target date", they are two different things.
Yes, Miniature Market and CSI and Meeplemart and some others had the products listed long before they started hitting shelves in Nov 2014.
I'm still not talking about that. It's great you want to bring that up, but the way you worded it you seemed to be correcting me. If that's not the case and you're adding onto my statement rather than correcting, we need to be clearer in how we communicate or this relationship simply isn't going to work.
Asterios wrote: no I was talking about pre-orders thru other sites, other companies and retailers were taking pre-orders a year before it ever came out, and PB's dropping the ball there kind of pissed off the wholesalers and such.
Again, you're talking about "a year before it came out", I'm talking about "before the original target date", they are two different things.
Yes, Miniature Market and CSI and Meeplemart and some others had the products listed long before they started hitting shelves in Nov 2014.
I'm still not talking about that. It's great you want to bring that up, but the way you worded it you seemed to be correcting me. If that's not the case and you're adding onto my statement rather than correcting, we need to be clearer in how we communicate or this relationship simply isn't going to work.
I was going from the retailer perspective since they start taking pre-orders when they can start taking preorders and such or shortly thereafter and yes some of them were taking them out before Dec. of 2013 for wave 1, funny thing is nothing for wave 2, so either the wholesalers will not touch this with a 10 foot pole or even PB knows wave 2 is not coming out anytime in the next year or so if ever and are not even offering pre-orders, which makes sense that if Pb is just stalling for the backers to grow apathy and never deliver wave 2, they would not offer an imaginative wave to retailers since retailers will take them to court.
cause lets face it, if PB even thought they would have wave 2 out sometime within a year they would already be offering pre-orders.
Right, which is exactly what I'm getting at; they DID offer up SSPO's for wave 1 six months before the original expected delivery target. If we're 8 months from the next expected completion (note: see my previous commentary on the vagueness of just what state of actual completion they might or might not mean), then in theory they should be sending out SSPO's for wave 2 stuff in the coming months. They can waffle about what is and isn't being done all they like, if they want SCI and MinMar and MeeMar and TWS and various B&M stores to order up stuff, they need to reach out to them, or at least tell AD that they might want to start figuring out who wants what.
Since we haven't heard from AD yet (and with this many nerds involved, *someone* will hear about it eventually), it stands to reason that we're not even close. They can be silent to us all they like, they can't be silent to their own distribution network.
Thus, we can continue to take every date they give with massive doses of salt until someone pops in and can verifiably indicate that the distribution machine is moving into action.
Which, looking at wave one again, might not mean squat. I'm also NOT saying that "oh, once the SSPO's go out, we're close to done", I'm saying that until it happens, PB's full of gak about how close they are to production/delivery.
What they actually achieve in the months following SSPO's remains to be seen. Maybe they make it, maybe they don't. But until they make at least some cursory efforts with distribution, it's all hot air. With distributors in action (and potentially money lined up for advertising, which we know they're tight on), at least there'll be evidence they themselves (their often delusional selves) actually believe the gak they're saying, rather than simply telling us what they think we want to hear.
Every time they say "oh, it'll be in just a few more months", sure it buys them that time (lol, not really), but it also only stretches belief so far when we cross into a few months away from that and they haven't even begun the process.
Forar wrote: Right, which is exactly what I'm getting at; they DID offer up SSPO's for wave 1 six months before the original expected delivery target. If we're 8 months from the next expected completion (note: see my previous commentary on the vagueness of just what state of actual completion they might or might not mean), then in theory they should be sending out SSPO's for wave 2 stuff in the coming months. They can waffle about what is and isn't being done all they like, if they want SCI and MinMar and MeeMar and TWS and various B&M stores to order up stuff, they need to reach out to them, or at least tell AD that they might want to start figuring out who wants what.
Since we haven't heard from AD yet (and with this many nerds involved, *someone* will hear about it eventually), it stands to reason that we're not even close. They can be silent to us all they like, they can't be silent to their own distribution network.
Thus, we can continue to take every date they give with massive doses of salt until someone pops in and can verifiably indicate that the distribution machine is moving into action.
Which, looking at wave one again, might not mean squat. I'm also NOT saying that "oh, once the SSPO's go out, we're close to done", I'm saying that until it happens, PB's full of gak about how close they are to production/delivery.
What they actually achieve in the months following SSPO's remains to be seen. Maybe they make it, maybe they don't. But until they make at least some cursory efforts with distribution, it's all hot air. With distributors in action (and potentially money lined up for advertising, which we know they're tight on), at least there'll be evidence they themselves (their often delusional selves) actually believe the gak they're saying, rather than simply telling us what they think we want to hear.
Every time they say "oh, it'll be in just a few more months", sure it buys them that time (lol, not really), but it also only stretches belief so far when we cross into a few months away from that and they haven't even begun the process.
yeah like i said the fact they have not even started doing pre-orders for the wholesellers even says, PB is nowhere close to being done and their actual release date is at least a year away. if not more if ever.
all PB is doing is stalling for time till all the backers have grown apathetic towards this project and just given up. they will continue to do this over and over and over again and people like Capt. Karuthers who excuses PB for doing this saying its how they "roll" are just the reason why PB continues to get away with this, well the buck stops here.
Lynx7725 wrote: Just to satisfy my own morbid curiosity, can someone summarize how and why ND was cut out of the picture? I wasn't paying attention at that point in time.
There is a rather long, involved pair of Updates in which Palladium throws Ninja Division under the bus:
As it turned out, none of us at Palladium Books nor Ninja Division were truly prepared for EVERYTHING to come.
Here’s just one simple example. The first container of RRT games is about to ship from China in July of 2014. As in, it will be ready to ship in 10 days. We are happy as can be. We assumed Ninja Division would handle the importing as Palladium has NO experience in this whatsoever and had informed them of this. Or if not ND, the Manufacturing Broker that Ninja Division brought in on this project. So we were left dazed and scrambling, again, when the Ninjas told us, “Sorry, you need to deal with this directly and on your own. We can’t help you, because we don’t know this stuff either and you need to take care of all the paperwork, we can’t do it for you.” They couldn’t recommend a broker, either; presumably because this end of the business was new to them too. When we asked ND if the Manufacturing Broker could handle it for us, they said, no. We later learned that the company could have done it, but apparently ND didn’t know that at the time.
That’s where Ninja Division came in. We spoke with a number of people as we moved forward to make Robotech® game pieces, but after speaking with John Cadice of Soda Pop Miniatures (and soon after, Kai, David and other members of the team that would become Ninja Division), we felt we had found the right group of people to make this game happen. They were supremely confident, smart, and self-professed Robotech® fans eager to embrace a project like this. The quality of the products they had produced themselves and in concert with other game publishers was excellent. Super Dungeon Explore was a hot new release at the time, Helldorado was another, and Relic Knights was being developed and looked fabulous. Both Carmen Bellaire and Tom Roache were ecstatic over the choice to work with these guys to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Everyone we spoke to, including distributors and industry people, agreed that Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios were the right choice to team up with. These guys certainly had the anime style down. Everyone seemed to have positive feedback about these “impressive new guys.” We liked them and liked what they had to say. They explained they had the knowledge, the experience and were ready to start work immediately. We just had to trust them. We did, so we took the plunge.
It was on!
Ninja Division got to work. Palladium Books ponied up $40,000 to get the ball rolling. It was a risk, because if the Kickstarter flopped, we’d be screwed. ND got the 3D sculptors sculpting, the game design and writing into development, key art and packaging into production, and other pre-production elements rockin’ and rollin’. Lacking experience with 3D sculpting and manufacturing in China, Palladium felt it wise to leave most of the technical decisions up to Ninja Division, with Palladium approving sculpts, artwork, packaging, etc., before it would be sent to Harmony Gold for final approval. The game rules we developed together, as we had very strong ideas about what the game needed to be, and what Robotech® fans wanted. The Kickstarter
The guys at Ninja Division had the technical knowhow, the connections and the people to help Palladium make this product, now all we needed was the money to do it. And that was a problem.
When we started to get serious about Robotech® RPG Tactics™, talks naturally segued into how do we afford all this? Ninja Division estimated the cost to be between $550,000 and $900,000 to make the game and expansion packs we all wanted to see made. And not just enough to provide to the Kickstarter backers, but enough to get the game into the retail market. That was an impossible amount of money for Palladium. “Not if you launch it via Kickstarter.” That was what everybody was telling us, the Ninjas included. All of them were right.
It was my friend Jolly Blackburn, creator of Knights of the Dinner Table, who first told me about Kickstarter and that I should look into it. A couple weeks later, out of the blue, Carmen Bellaire began ranting about the value of Kickstarter and that it was something Palladium needed to look into. This was before Robotech® RPG Tactics™ was even an idea.
Carmen was the first to restart the Kickstarter conversation, saying we should fund the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ project via Kickstarter. That it would be easy. Tom Roache concurred. We were hesitant. It sounded great, but we knew it had to be a lot more demanding and difficult than it sounded. And it had to be done right to be successful.
Doing a Kickstarter and needing that amount of money was scary. Exciting, but scary. And Palladium had NO experience in doing one or knowing how to handle it.
Enter Ninja Division. At the time, Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios had done something like eight Kickstarters between them, and had the experience we lacked in all areas. The Ninjas said they could handle the Kickstarter 100%, from start to finish. From the graphics, writing and the video presentation, to the stretch goals and Q&A. This was a huge relief, as we knew nothing about doing a Kickstarter. We let the Ninjas run with it, sat back and watched in awe. Of course, we made some suggestions and did some editing, but this was Ninja Division’s show. We trusted their expertise and what needed to be done. And look as the result, wow. The Kickstarter was a tremendous success and there was much rejoicing.
But nothing is easy. I had big concerns about costs all around. I badly wanted to include additional shipping fees in the Kickstarter. Something that almost everyone does today, but back then, we were strongly advised not to. We were told that nobody (back then) charged shipping and that if we charged a shipping fee in addition to the backer pledge levels, it would severely reduce the chances of a successful Kickstarter. This was the subject of many discussions. I finally acquiesced, but it would be something that would haunt us later, as shipping worldwide would be in the neighborhood of $150,000 all by itself. Just for Wave One! Yeah, shipping is brutal, especially with the advent of “dimensional weight” – the larger the package, regardless of weight, the more it costs. The Ninjas said they factored shipping into the pledge levels, but final costs would be greater than their estimates across the board.
Remember that runaway train I spoke of early? When the Kickstarter ended, that train took off with us on it, and it immediately started to rocket out of control.
First, not knowing anything about Kickstarters, we did not realize the real job of managing a Kickstarter begins AFTER the Kickstarter is funded. We thought that when Ninja Division said it would handle the Kickstarter from start to finish, that they would be handling everything. Again, we didn’t know what “everything” entailed.
As it turned out, they meant “finish” as a successful funding. Again, not knowing exactly what’s involved and with miscommunication by both parties, Palladium did not realize it would be our responsibility to handle the thousands of emails and questions that would follow the successful funding of the Kickstarter. Remember, we were still figuring out and learning everything about Kickstarters, including establishing the BackerKit storefront to manage the pledges of our 5,000+ backers, among many other things. Consequently, something like six weeks went by without Palladium answering a single question or email on the Kickstarter page. It was only when one of the Ninjas reached out to Palladium, asking why were we ignoring the backers on the Kickstarter page, and the discussion that followed, that we at Palladium realized it was our job to manage the page. We jumped right on it, but by then, backers were frustrated and we had a thousand plus emails to answer, plus regular posts and updates to make. Like I said, it was crazy as that express train was rocketing down the tracks with more unexpected challenges and surprises to come.
We want Wave Two out yesterday. Or even better, last year. That can’t happen. We are shooting for the end of 2015 and will do EVERYTHING we can to make that a reality.
Regarding Ninja Division, we also basically only know what PB says. They themselves have kept fairly quiet on the matter. Reading between the lines on (again) what they don't say and what they do, and PB's giant missives, it seems like they were hired to do X, Y, and Z, did X, Y, and Z, and PB thought/hoped they were going to do A, B, C, D, E, and F as well.
They did the rules, PB did a rewrite (surprising nobody). They ran the KS campaign. They did the figures for wave one, there was a file compatibility issue (as noted on ND's FB page, and much later by PB), wave one was made. They did and submitted the files for wave 2, through PB we know there's another file compatibility issue and simultaneously they're also still sorting out the sprues ('trimming the parts count').
My take has been that PB keep trying to demonize ND as not doing enough, but as someone who works with project managers on massive (read: multi-million dollar) projects, contracts need to *very* clearly lay out distribution of responsibility. If they wanted ND to do A-F, they needed to say so up front, or to adjust the contract (with both parties agreement and negotiated adjustments) to reflect what was missed, overlooked or plain out not known.
ND said on their FB that PB has had wave 2's files since late last year, so we're around a full year they've had them in hand and have apparently settled on (presumably paying for) the factory in China both re-creating the figures from scratch and adjusting the sprue breakdown. In my experiences hearing from Wyrd, apparently it's not uncommon to have someone in the factory who specializes in sprue breakdowns, they do that sort of stuff a lot afterall.
But it means we can't just nod and accept "oh yeah I totally believe they've had some guy on retainer for like a year making/fixing this gak".
And yeah, that final quote is hilarious. They are 6 months from delivery, they swear, they will do as much as humanly possible to make that happen! Then 5 months later: "oh well we're working on some Rifts books, we'll get around to it, just you wait!"
Forar wrote: ND said on their FB that PB has had wave 2's files since late last year, so we're around a full year they've had them in hand and have apparently settled on (presumably paying for) the factory in China both re-creating the figures from scratch and adjusting the sprue breakdown. In my experiences hearing from Wyrd, apparently it's not uncommon to have someone in the factory who specializes in sprue breakdowns, they do that sort of stuff a lot afterall.
yeah thats what PB did in regards to the UEDF sprues, the Zentraedi are the original ND designs while the UEDF was some bizarre nightmare reconfiguration done by some other party (see my Sprue signature theory).
on another note just ordered newer versions of my designs, still have to rework my Gnerl design which will take some time, have a new Cats Eye coming to me with a few touchups and a magnet hole affixed to it. also got me some more picknpluck foam trays for my minis i've been working on plus a new cut off tool for my dremel and some very fine tweezers for the decals on the way.
Shuffle off the responsibilities, cash the check, and then DON'T FETHING BOTHER TO EVEN GLANCE AT THE PROJECT WEBPAGE THAT JUST MADE YOU MORE THAN A MILLION DOLLARS FOR OVER A MONTH AND A HALF DESPITE *MULTIPLE* LOOMING DEADLINES DURING THAT PERIOD is exactly the Palladium style of management that has continued throughout the entire two years and counting post funding.
yeah ND did what they were paid for then removed themselves as far from this disaster they could and doubt ND will ever work with PB in anything else ever again.
ND were the cheap contractors that were paid to produce miniatures because the quality that Paulson would have provided was too expensive. Every time someone writes "this should have gone to Paulson" they are acknowledging that.
Every complaint about the sculpting of the miniatures is down to them.
They were the "professionals" who didn't know that they programs they used were incompatible with China's?
ND were partners in this mess. It's funny how so many are willing to place every single thing in PB's lap. It's obvious that ND have their share of blame, as does HG.
Three blind companies
See how they're run
They all ran after the kickstarter fife
In each others' backs they try sticking a knife
Did you ever see such a joke in your life?
ND were the cheap contractors that were paid to produce miniatures because the quality that Paulson would have provided was too expensive. Every time someone writes "this should have gone to Paulson" they are acknowledging that.
Every complaint about the sculpting of the miniatures is down to them.
They were the "professionals" who didn't know that they programs they used were incompatible with China's?
ND were partners in this mess. It's funny how so many are willing to place every single thing in PB's lap. It's obvious that ND have their share of blame, as does HG.
Three blind companies
See how they're run
They all ran after the kickstarter fife
In each others' backs they try sticking a knife
Did you ever see such a joke in your life?
PB's to blame cause they "hired" ND to do a job, if ND didn't do the right job then PB should have dealt with it, the fact PB didn't means ND did the job they were hired for.
I don't think ND is totally clear of responsibility in the original problem. The contractual relationship between ND and PB is not fully known to us IMO.
However early teething problems is to be expected and to be honest it could have been managed into a PR bonus; RRT is hardly the first KS to have ran into "moving into mass production" problems, and most of us are likely to be sympathetic to growing pains and lessons learnt, had they been communicated to us.
So yeah, for me, sure, ND definitely contributed to the problem, but I came into the KS knowing that the companies involved won't have experience in plastic injection mass production. Some problems are to be expected.
The current crop of problems though, are nothing butPB.
Well ND created the problem by screwing up their numbers and assumptions on costs for the KS. Then left PB to deal with it. PB has not handled it well once the ball was passed back into their court.
It's like a crappy Offense looking really good and making good ground and then failing to make the touchdown and handing it off to the special teams who just can't seem to make even a 20 yard field goal for anything.
n815e wrote: Rick, it's all roses for ND and dirt for PB and to me that does not paint an accurate picture.
I'm not saying ND didn't probably err somewhere, but what it comes down to is PB is the one that hired them, its like if you hire a contractor to work for you and one of his employees screw up, are you going to blame the contractor or the employee?
If you go back to the original renders, ND's work is perfectly acceptable. Sure, Paulson's work is "better", but it's somewhat more a matter of taste. Also, the RTT designs are true transformables vs Hasegawa-type single-pose.
Again, what makes you think that ND didn't do what they were paid to do?
Renders are not in any way comparable to the final work.
ND underestimated costs and promised more than they should have.
ND made the boxes way too big causing the need of additional shipping containers.
ND screwed up the files with the Chinese costing additional time and $.
Just for starters.....
And Yes much of this could have been avoided if PB had simply hired a PM and taken a more active roll. They blindly trusted ND and are paying the price.
And Yes much of this could have been avoided if PB had simply hired a PM and taken a more active roll. They blindly trusted ND and are paying the price.
but PB had Kevin to be the project manager who knows all things and is perfect in every way
I think ND made the same mistakes that just about every big miniature Kickstarter was making at the same time. They weren't anywhere over or below the curve in my estimation.
What's followed though is the worst of the worst outside of outright intentional fraud. As the product owners it falls on Palladium to fix these messes.
Every complaint about the sculpting of the miniatures is down to them.
They were the "professionals" who didn't know that they programs they used were incompatible with China's?
ND were partners in this mess. It's funny how so many are willing to place every single thing in PB's lap. It's obvious that ND have their share of blame, as does HG.
Don't forget the factory in china that did the actual parts splitting to prioritize their own time/machines/effort and not the final visual effect or ease of assembly! Yes, ND does deserve a portion of the blame but by all accounts, they stopped contributing to the mess over a year and a half ago. They're done and gone. There is only so much blame I can assign to a company that has been hands off since summer of 2014 when so many new and continuing problems exist over a year later. There is plenty of blame to go around but the lion's share falls straight into Kevin Siembieda's lap. Also, it is important to note that subsequent projects by ND have seemingly improved since they screwed up on Robotech and Relic Knights so they at least seemed to have learned a lesson. Palladium, however, still plods along getting stuck in the same ditches over and over again.
I'm in no way shifting blame from Palladium.
I'm merely stating that ND is not blameless and that the problems they caused should be acknowledged. They have distanced themselves from this project, but that's because they are trying to distance themselves from their own mistakes.
If we take the stance, as Rick would have it, that it is all under Palladium's umbrella and therefore all Palladium's fault, then we should go a step further and say it is all Harmony Gold's fault.
The reality is that ND, HG and PB were partners in this.
Don't forget the factory in china that did the actual parts splitting
Yes, you are right about that as well. I like building models -- so the parts count for me is not a negative. The choices made in how the parts were split, however, were poor in many instances.
n815e wrote: I'm in no way shifting blame from Palladium.
I'm merely stating that ND is not blameless and that the problems they caused should be acknowledged. They have distanced themselves from this project, but that's because they are trying to distance themselves from their own mistakes.
If we take the stance, as Rick would have it, that it is all under Palladium's umbrella and therefore all Palladium's fault, then we should go a step further and say it is all Harmony Gold's fault.
The reality is that ND, HG and PB were partners in this.
Don't forget the factory in china that did the actual parts splitting
Yes, you are right about that as well. I like building models -- so the parts count for me is not a negative. The choices made in how the parts were split, however, were poor in many instances.
my point is if ND screwed up then PB should have dealt with it, but PB didn't, which tells me that you are over assuming that ND erred, every part where you think ND made a mistake I bet there is also a reason where PB did the screw up.
I'm trying to get a better idea of time estimates involved for mass production, so I went back to look over the remaining stuff that need to be delivered. There's what, about 14 unit boxes? With 3 Valk-types (which are more complex) and a MAC II, that makes it more IMO the equivalent of some 18 unit boxes... call it 20 unit boxes, for easier number management.
So basically, these 20 units need to have their sprue mold designed and cut, and then manufacturing time arranged for the correct amount of sprues to be produced. We also need to provide for ancillary production, such as printing the boxes and instructions/ decals, and then packing the whole lot into reasonable units. Finally, shipping to US from China.
So let's work backwards. On a slow ship from China to US, that takes to my understanding, what, 4 to 6 weeks? More if peak period, or port strikes, or customs.
Manufacturing just the sprue is actually likely the least lengthy period, with the constraint being how many molds the manufacturer can simultaneously run. Assuming PB ask for 5000 box per unit, and to my understanding that's a low volume (which would bump the order down the priority queue), that's 100,000 boxes.. I'm not that familiar with injection molding production rates, but I imagine with mold swapping and shifts and all, 2 weeks should be enough to punch out that many.
It's really the packing and QC on those that would really add time. This is likely done by hand, and I won't skim on the QC either (or you get a battlepod when you paid for a Super Valk). Say, 2 weeks for packing and QC? So mass production for just 5000 boxes per unit takes a month. More if more boxes.
So that's already 2.5 months gone and those are the more predictable stuff. The really chaotic portion is mold design and cutting, which have a lot of room for change and errors, and it's going to be an iterative process. The more experience you have on the team, the better it goes... but we know PB has little experience on this area, so it's not going to be fast.
The sucky part? There are 20 molds to be designed and cut, and the bottleneck is the number of people who can look at each. This is going to be the slow part, and the frickin' ocean in-between doesn't help, since you really do want to have some physical test runs to make sure everything is ok. I'm guessing each mold would take about 3 to 6 weeks to sort out depending on complexity, and while you can pipeline/ batch molds, there's a limit to that.. I'm guessing a total of 12 to 24 weeks just to get all the molds designed and cut. That's an entire quarter to half year.
So by my estimates, they are looking at.. at least 6 months of constant effort, more likely 9 months, to deliver all of the remaining items. And that's before taking into consideration that Dec, Jan and Feb are extremely bad months to get anything done, with Western hemisphere going into the Christmas break, and the Chinese preparing for Lunar New Year shortly after.
End Q2 2016 is way, way too optimistic. End 2016 for all of Wave 2 is more realistic, IMO.
There is a way to salvage the situation though, and that is to do a Wave 3. Practically, halving the deliverables to 8 units would likely cut the timeline for those 8 to 4 months optimistic, which is doable... uphill, but doable.
Cutting scope also does one important thing, which is to spread the releases out so that the customers will be reminded on a more frequent basis of the game, which is actually what is needed now. Instead of 20 units in end 2016, we get 8 in Q2 2016, probably another 8 towards end Q3 2016.. a bit of a long gap, but still workable. Will also probably help with the revenue and costs.
So taking a step back to look, having a release strategy that synergizes with the production realities would probably have gone a long way to making this entire product line much more palatable for everyone. Too bad that the word "strategy" has been pretty much missing from day 1.
EDIT: Wait. I realised I made the assumption that PB didn't do any work prior to today on Wave 2, which isn't likely the case. I believe they are working with the manufacturer on the molds... but I also believe that PB is placing no priority on this work, simply because their working style is to spread the priority all over the place in peace time anyway. They probably sorted out a few units out fully already, but it's highly unlikely they have ALL 20 units sorted out in the mold design and cutting portion.
Lynx7725 wrote: There is a way to salvage the situation though, and that is to do a Wave 3. Practically, halving the deliverables to 8 units would likely cut the timeline for those 8 to 4 months optimistic, which is doable... uphill, but doable.
Actually that is no doable it would increase costs of shipping and handeling accross the board, PB has already put several hundred of thousand into shipping already (hence why they are also broke).
what they should have done and which many kickstarters who do miniature games are screwing up is to reduce the number of unique units and for rewards increase the number of the base units. and use the unique units to support the game in later releases, meanwhile if say they increased the number of the base game units for rewards we would have already had our pledges by now.
Mike1975 wrote: Actually since Rick put a whole $140 into this during the KS he is at fault.
Asterios wrote: Actually that is no doable it would increase costs of shipping and handeling accross the board, PB has already put several hundred of thousand into shipping already (hence why they are also broke).
what they should have done and which many kickstarters who do miniature games are screwing up is to reduce the number of unique units and for rewards increase the number of the base units. and use the unique units to support the game in later releases, meanwhile if say they increased the number of the base game units for rewards we would have already had our pledges by now.
Good point on the S&H charges. I forgot about that one. It probably can be offset by increased revenue (that's a big IF because they needed to have the release strategy in place early to draw maximum benefits), but not so likely in the current situation.
So basically it looks to be that PB is getting boxed in by their release approach and overcommitment on flashy units, many of which I didn't even bothered with. Don't disagree with your assessment on the screw up, it just makes the likelihood of Wave 2 making to any shores that much dimmer.
What I am most concerned with is the big money spent on the high volume steel molds.
Obviously large volume models do not appear to be the way to go for PB product.
So what is the cheaper method for middling volume molds?
I am sure after the "disappointing sales" PB is re-thinking how the next batch will be made.
Just the GHQ models alone show the speed PB likes: small batch sizes with low cost initial outlay on tooling.
If I were to point to fault with Ninja Division it would be recommending the steel molds that would be difficult to get return on investment.
PB is not GW or Fantasy Flight, their IP is not all that stellar so volumes just are not there, 5000 backers or not.
So let's work backwards. On a slow ship from China to US, that takes to my understanding, what, 4 to 6 weeks? More if peak period, or port strikes, or customs.
Average time for a boat out of China is 30 days on the water..with a week in customs...assuming your paperwork is in order. Times can change depending on where your boat ports...either in LA or Seattle. It's more expensive to port on the east coast..but can be done. I actually think because of the LA dock strike, one batch of containers had to be shipped that way.
Splitting the wave 2 into a third wave is absolutely doable...and the shipping costs could be reduced by buddying up with someone else's leftover container space.
If they were smart they'd make some things in plastic that we've seen set up for that kind of production Gnerls, lancers, MAC 2, etc. all look to be ready for sprue layouts. The rest of the stuff would be easier to finish as pewter or resin. Doing the zentraedi infantry as resin figs is a better way to go. These units aren't worth spending money on to develop plastic models for. The rules blow and they are easily the weakest units in the game. Most of the cards are easy and easily completed with no issues there are plenty of places they can source that from...in fact they could source that here in the U.S. and save them some time. It just depends how they are planning this thing out going forward.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Doing the zentraedi infantry as resin figs is a better way to go. These units aren't worth spending money on to develop plastic models for. The rules blow and they are easily the weakest units in the game.
Now there you go making thoughtless comments like a bull in a china shop. I had bought four of those darn things in the backer kit so I had a full light and heavy squad, because we were shooting for being a completionist.
Silly fool that I am not knowing fully what all the units did so I could decide what was good or not... oh yeah, I had no opportunity to know that at the time, never mind knowing wave 2 would be the success it is.
Okay, I am better now... forgive and forget and all that...
Talizvar wrote: What I am most concerned with is the big money spent on the high volume steel molds.
Obviously large volume models do not appear to be the way to go for PB product.
So what is the cheaper method for middling volume molds?
I am sure after the "disappointing sales" PB is re-thinking how the next batch will be made.
Just the GHQ models alone show the speed PB likes: small batch sizes with low cost initial outlay on tooling.
If I were to point to fault with Ninja Division it would be recommending the steel molds that would be difficult to get return on investment.
PB is not GW or Fantasy Flight, their IP is not all that stellar so volumes just are not there, 5000 backers or not.
Agreed. I've said this from the beginning. Additionally, spending the money on tooling up plastic command tokens when thick cardstock chits (much like space hulk) would have sufficed...and been much cheaper. I don't even use mine anymore as they are too small for my tastes. I use these small tokens I got at a dollar store. The core box size was also a mistake as it adds weight and bulk to palletizing for shipping. When I first saw the box...my first reaction was: well this is unnecessarily big...LOL. The GHQ models..for what they are are nice. The detail of the Female power armor could be better..but I think that has to do with them switching the material from resin to pewter. My first Female Power Armor that I bought was resin with pewter fingers and gun bits..the next 5 I bought are all pewter. The resin one has better detail. In the case of the super valk the detail is as good as the plastics. They should have just made the other two modes for the super valk exclusive...it would have given people a serviceable unit to play with. As of now, when I use the two Super Valk con exclusives...I have to keep them in guardian mode at all times. I'm working on press molds of the arm armor and leg armor and jet packs to convert my own fighters and battloids. However, PB could have made my life easier by simply making miriya's super valk in all 3 modes. There is no way that the MOQs for the peripheral stuff is high enough to justify plastic for it all. I think if wave 2 is on the horizon...expect a mix of different materials to complete it. That's how they should have done it from the beginning. They either got bad advice...or convinced themselves that making everything in plastic was a better way to go. As it stands now...if PB wanted to..they could get models released by Jan if they wanted. They could make a cat's eye and have it be ready by years end if they had the desire. Meh.
So let's work backwards. On a slow ship from China to US, that takes to my understanding, what, 4 to 6 weeks? More if peak period, or port strikes, or customs.
Average time for a boat out of China is 30 days on the water..with a week in customs...assuming your paperwork is in order. Times can change depending on where your boat ports...either in LA or Seattle. It's more expensive to port on the east coast..but can be done. I actually think because of the LA dock strike, one batch of containers had to be shipped that way.
Splitting the wave 2 into a third wave is absolutely doable...and the shipping costs could be reduced by buddying up with someone else's leftover container space.
If they were smart they'd make some things in plastic that we've seen set up for that kind of production Gnerls, lancers, MAC 2, etc. all look to be ready for sprue layouts. The rest of the stuff would be easier to finish as pewter or resin. Doing the zentraedi infantry as resin figs is a better way to go. These units aren't worth spending money on to develop plastic models for. The rules blow and they are easily the weakest units in the game. Most of the cards are easy and easily completed with no issues there are plenty of places they can source that from...in fact they could source that here in the U.S. and save them some time. It just depends how they are planning this thing out going forward.
oh so PB gets free shipping of product to all the backers? wow better let PB know that since they won't have to worry about S&H charges then.
all of the items in wave 2 are ready for sprue layout, PB just needs the money which they do not have, or did you forget how ND told us and everyone they sent the designs to PB for wave 2 last year? FPA's, MPA,s Super Valks and so on are the weakest units? what world do you live in again? also how does a $20 model compare to a much cheaper plastic model? then there are the resin items PB has yet to do like the bases, the SDF-1 and so forth, your just sticking your foot in your mouth some more, considering PB has yet to do any of those or even show us physical models of them as of yet.
also Zentraedi models in Resin so the Zentraedi I paid $30 for to have them done in ABS plastic will cost PB alot more then that to make them ? yeah that makes sense.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Doing the zentraedi infantry as resin figs is a better way to go. These units aren't worth spending money on to develop plastic models for. The rules blow and they are easily the weakest units in the game.
Now there you go making thoughtless comments like a bull in a china shop. I had bought four of those darn things in the backer kit so I had a full light and heavy squad, because we were shooting for being a completionist.
Silly fool that I am not knowing fully what all the units did so I could decide what was good or not... oh yeah, I had no opportunity to know that at the time, never mind knowing wave 2 would be the success it is.
Okay, I am better now... forgive and forget and all that...
Um. Sorry? LOL. I never put much stock in the infantry in this game as it made no sense. Even Breetai, as cool as he is, is utterly pointless in the game. He can't join mecha units...he can't pilot mecha..he's basically an upgrade to an infantry squad...and is a command point battery in your games. It's a cool model and I bought it anyways...knowing he'd spend more time in my display case than actually being used. Now, if PB decided to update the zentraedi infantry rules to be better...that would help. Their fire power is great if you can get them within 12" of a target..but they can't boost their speed like other units can...which is dumb. Why did they make infantry unable to run...is beyond me. I think that was a massive oversight IMHO and if those unit were play tested properly..it would have become very apparent. The infantry should have had a special run rule..where by spending a command point or whatever you could double their base speed of 5 for a turn. That small change would make them worth fielding as objective grabbers. Also their gun could have used an 18" range. Playing them on a 4x6 table is a waste as they'll never reach a target unless the UEDF player actually moves into their range...which is unlikely. On a 4x4 table they are serviceable..but are still slow as hell.
Additional spending on plastic tokens? IIRC we unlocked those, didn't we with our pledges. Now I realize that it was probably a fake baked in stretch goal like the faction dice (that I pointed out to Ninja Division were IN THE INTRO VIDEO FROM THE BEGINNING!) but IIRC we specifically unlocked stuff like that. If they set it up as a stretch goal, sorry but no take backs. That additional "spending" was covered by us, not them.
warboss wrote: Additional spending on plastic tokens? IIRC we unlocked those, didn't we with our pledges. Now I realize that it was probably a fake baked in stretch goal like the faction dice (that I pointed out to Ninja Division were IN THE INTRO VIDEO FROM THE BEGINNING!) but IIRC we specifically unlocked stuff like that. If they set it up as a stretch goal, sorry but no take backs. That additional "spending" was covered by us, not them.
don't forget our dual colored blast marker we paid for and never got.
oh so PB gets free shipping of product to all the backers? wow better let PB know that since they won't have to worry about S&H charges then.
Shipping cost from China can be reduced by purchasing extra container space/ unused container space from other companies when it comes time to build containers. My company does it all the time for wal-mart orders.
all of the items in wave 2 are ready for sprue layout, PB just needs the money which they do not have, or did you forget how ND told us and everyone they sent the designs to PB for wave 2 last year?
The last real update (which was back in Feb I think, showed exploded views of a Gnerl and Lancer. To me, that kind of progress indicates that they were close to completing sprue layouts for those two models. I recall that they had some issues with the Lancer.
FPA's, MPA,s Super Valks and so on are the weakest units? what world do you live in again?
Reread what I wrote. I said the infantry units are the weakest units in the game. FPA if used right are some of the most powerful models in the game. They can cross the table in one turn and light up anyone with ease. They got a slight nerf as the new blast rules nerfed their grenade launcher a bit. The MPA is an okay unit but is slow compared to FPA and suffers from a combination of having really good short range guns...but can't reach their targets as fast as FPA. Overall, I give the MPA a B- for a unit. You'll get more mileage out of using pods...as both have 18" guns. Now if you can get MPA close..then they can rip stuff up. Getting there is the challenge though in a game that's primarily focused on missiles. In that case, the revised missile rules actually help them somewhat. Super Valks are great...maybe a little too good. The infantry? It's terrible...and should have always been relegated to be done in resin or pewter. It's such a low volume unit...that spending the money for plastic on those doesn't make sense.
also how does a $20 model compare to a much cheaper plastic model?
All these units are low volume units...in other words, you aren't going to buy many of them. To save, time money, etc. PB should have made it clear that these units were not going to be in plastic. Look at how fast they cranked out the Exclusives. They basically have two box sets of MPA and FPA if they'd package them that way. Sure they are mono posed but if they added another couple of sets of arms/ legs..they had those units done. Since they committed to plastic...these are going to be in plastic. It's probably too late to go back unless they decide to and announce it. I don't know what they were thinking.
then there are the resin items PB has yet to do like the bases, the SDF-1 and so forth, your just sticking your foot in your mouth some more, considering PB has yet to do any of those or even show us physical models of them as of yet.
These could have either A): Been done right away..as they are low hanging fruit..or B): they've been relegated to the end of the line because they aren't critical components to the game itself. I use my Adepticon Poker chips for my objective markers. My guess is that they've chosen B. Is that the right call to make? Probably, not. If PB chose to get these out first, I think many backers would have been satisfied with getting something while they wait for their meat and potato units from wave 2. The resin SDF-1 and objective markers could have been done in the U.S.
also Zentraedi models in Resin so the Zentraedi I paid $30 for to have them done in ABS plastic will cost PB alot more then that to make them ? yeah that makes sense.
To get your money back on plastic models the MOQs have to be high enough to justify the cost. How many zentraedi infantry units do you think people will buy compared to Battle pods? That's why Pods should be in plastic (which they are) and the infantry needs to be in a cheaper material at lower volumes...which resin provides. The infantry rules is certainly not going to help them move those box sets..that's for sure. Retail wise, the prices they'd sell them at would probably be the same as I'm sure they'd want to maintain the same margins.
In the grand scheme of things, if they had come out with just wave 1 on time and still had that mistake, I'd have looked the other way without comment as you still have a completely functional ancillary product. It's a miniscule mistake compared with the Vader-esque changes that Palladium has wrought since on purpose like screwing over the idea of exclusives, backers getting product first, getting everything in one go, losing the skirmish rules, and more recently taking the special character sculpts and turning them into just 1 special mode for the veritechs instead of the 3 they agreed to do. There are dozens of bigger fish to fry than that mistake. I could possibly agree if they didn't make it in plastic at all like we unlocked.. but missing a highlight color? Nah.
oh so PB gets free shipping of product to all the backers? wow better let PB know that since they won't have to worry about S&H charges then.
Shipping cost from China can be reduced by purchasing extra container space from other companies when it comes time to build containers. My company does it all the time for wal-mart orders.
you still seem to keep glossing over the cost of shipping from PB to the backers, nobody said anything about the cost to ship from china, just the cost to ship to the backers.
all of the items in wave 2 are ready for sprue layout, PB just needs the money which they do not have, or did you forget how ND told us and everyone they sent the designs to PB for wave 2 last year?
The last real update (which was back in Feb I think, showed exploded views of a Gnerl and Lancer. To me, that kind of progress indicates that they were close to completing sprue layouts for those two models. I recall that they had some issues with the Lancer.
and a note from ND said PB had all of the designs last year.
FPA's, MPA,s Super Valks and so on are the weakest units? what world do you live in again?
Reread what I wrote. I said the infantry units are the weakest units in the game. FPA if used right are some of the most powerful models in the game. They can cross the table in one turn and light up anyone with ease. They got a slight nerf as the new blast rules nerfed their grenade launcher a bit. The MPA is an okay unit but is slow compared to FPA and suffers from a combination of having really good short range guns...but can't reach their targets as fast as FPA. Overall, I give the MPA a B- for a unit. You'll get more mileage out of using pods...as both have 18" guns. Now if you can get MPA close..then they can rip stuff up. Getting there is the challenge though in a game that's primarily focused on missiles. In that case, the revised missile rules actually help them somewhat. Super Valks are great...maybe a little too good. The infantry? It's terrible...and should have always been relegated to be done in resin or pewter. It's such a low volume unit...that spending the money for plastic on those doesn't make sense.
and you said probably some of the most ordered items should have been done in pewter and/or resin not counting the items that came in each BC and above, that would have cost PB an arm and a leg more then they have to pay now.
also how does a $20 model compare to a much cheaper plastic model?
All these units are low volume units...in other words, you aren't going to buy many of them. To save, time money, etc. PB should have made it clear that these units were not going to be in plastic. Look at how fast they cranked out the Exclusives. They basically have two box sets of MPA and FPA if they'd package them that way. Sure they are mono posed but if they added another couple of sets of arms/ legs..they had those units done. Since they committed to plastic...these are going to be in plastic. It's probably too late to go back unless they decide to and announce it. I don't know what they were thinking.
and those same units are all in the BC and above so yeah they have to make a crud load of them, minimum 15K of each MPA and FPA
then there are the resin items PB has yet to do like the bases, the SDF-1 and so forth, your just sticking your foot in your mouth some more, considering PB has yet to do any of those or even show us physical models of them as of yet.
These could have either A Been done right away..as they are low hanging fruit..or B they've been relegated to the end of the line because they aren't critical components to the game itself. My guess is that they've chosen B. Is that the right call to make? Probably, not. If PB chose to get these out first, I think many backers would have been satisfied with getting something while they wait for their meat and potato units from wave 2. The resin SDF-1 and objective markers could have been done in the U.S.
and instead PB is making units they don't owe the backers and can just outright sell, yeah smart planning there.
also Zentraedi models in Resin so the Zentraedi I paid $30 for to have them done in ABS plastic will cost PB alot more then that to make them ? yeah that makes sense.
To get your money back on plastic models the MOQs have to be high enough to justify the cost. How many zentraedi infantry units do you think people will buy compared to Battle pods? That's why Pods should be in plastic (which they are) and the infantry needs to be in a cheaper material at lower volumes...which resin provides. Retail wise the prices they'd sell them at would probably be the same as I'm sure they'd want to maintain the same margins.
I bought me some Zentraedi Infantry. just because you did not buy any does not mean no one else bought any, i didn't buy any Gnerls other then what came with my BC.
you still seem to keep glossing over the cost of shipping from PB to the backers, nobody said anything about the cost to ship from china, just the cost to ship to the backers.
I haven't glossed over that. Those shipping costs for them is the cost of doing business. If they were smart they would have charged some sort of flat rate for s&H costs during the KS...they didn't. Now they are on the hook for shipping. That's their mistake and it has the potential to cost them.
and you said probably some of the most ordered items should have been done in pewter and/or resin not counting the items that came in each BC and above, that would have cost PB an arm and a leg more then they have to pay now.
The low volume units should be in resin or pewter. If the MPA and FPA had a higher volume ordered...then it makes sense to put them to plastic. However, PB sort of said F it...and fundamentally made them into pewter units anyways. Completely backwards, I know. If they wanted they could churn out the GHQ models and count them as wave 2 if they wanted...but they aren't going to do that. So in a way they spent money on the creation of those units twice.
and instead PB is making units they don't owe the backers and can just outright sell, yeah smart planning there.
If it generates revenue why not? It's not like PB should pause any easy releases they can make while wave 2 is being completed. The convention exclusives obviously had no effect on the status of wave 2. I think PB should just drop the exclusive status of those models..and sell them permanently to the general public..and offer them to the backers to fulfill their pledge for those units if the backers chose to...or at least give them to the backers at no cost to the backers as a way of saying: we're sorry. They owe backers at least that much.
I bought me some Zentraedi Infantry. just because you did not buy any does not mean no one else bought any, i didn't buy any Gnerls other then what came with my BC.
I know many people that bought the infantry. Cool. All I'm saying is that once people play with the infantry they'll be disappointed. My critique is not of the people that bought them..but of PB and their badly tested infantry rules for this game. Time to eat some pizza...
CaptKaruthors wrote: you still seem to keep glossing over the cost of shipping from PB to the backers, nobody said anything about the cost to ship from china, just the cost to ship to the backers.
I haven't glossed over that. Those shipping costs for them is the cost of doing business. If they were smart they would have charged some sort of flat rate for s&H costs during the KS...they didn't. Now they are on the hook for shipping. That's their mistake and it has the potential to cost them.
actually PB did charge RoW backers shipping costs and thats gonna cost PB big time so like the original statement said splitting wave 2 into 2 or more waves is not only doable for PB but ludicrous in thinking PB will spend more then they have to.
and you said probably some of the most ordered items should have been done in pewter and/or resin not counting the items that came in each BC and above, that would have cost PB an arm and a leg more then they have to pay now.
The low volume units should be in resin or pewter. If the MPA and FPA had a higher volume ordered...then it makes sense to put them to plastic. However, PB sort of said F it...and fundamentally made them into pewter units anyways. Completely backwards, I know. If they wanted they could churn out the GHQ models and count them as wave 2 if they wanted...but they aren't going to do that. So in a way they spent money on the creation of those units twice.
and most likely the low ordered units are the ones that PB said will be made in pewter, as it goes we have backers who bought nothing or very little if anything in wave 1 and bought exclusively wave 2 items. got one backer who spent hundreds and all he got was a decal sheet so far, and then there are the ones who bought the painted set who haven't gotten it yet.
and instead PB is making units they don't owe the backers and can just outright sell, yeah smart planning there.
If it generates revenue why not? It's not like PB should pause any easy releases they can make while wave 2 is being completed. The convention exclusives obviously had no effect on the status of wave 2. I think PB should just drop the exclusive status of those models..and sell them permanently to the general public..and offer them to the backers to fulfill their pledge for those units if the backers chose to...or at least give them to the backers at no cost to the backers as a way of saying: we're sorry. They owe backers at least that much.
seriously you say you know how PB operates and you think they are going to give the backers anything for free? too funny. also they have pretty much made the convention exclusives available to the open market already.
I bought me some Zentraedi Infantry. just because you did not buy any does not mean no one else bought any, i didn't buy any Gnerls other then what came with my BC.
I know many people that bought the infantry. Cool. All I'm saying is that once people play with the infantry they'll be disappointed. My critique is not of the people that bought them..but of PB and their badly tested infantry rules for this game.
and we have yet to see PB's version of the infantry stats, remember all the rules are not in the book, the special rules and such are on the cards. which PB has not released as of yet.
ND made the boxes big because PB wanted backers to put all of their rewards in the one box.
PB is still responsible for the project, and should have had a PM from the get-go. Trusting ND is one thing, but just how incompetent is PB if what you say is true?
JohnHwangDD wrote: ND made the boxes big because PB wanted backers to put all of their rewards in the one box.
PB is still responsible for the project, and should have had a PM from the get-go. Trusting ND is one thing, but just how incompetent is PB if what you say is true?
Where did they say that? (about the box).
I agree that palladium is overall responsible for EVERYTHING since their name is at the top and they cashed the giant $1.4 million check (minus fees plus backerkit). If they didn't properly oversee their partner or investigate them in the first place, that is also on them.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The box is huge, and it's the only rational reason for it to be so big.
Given the history of this particular project, the simplest reason would be that someone screwed up or didn't consider the actual volume of the contents. I thought maybe there was some snippet of ND insider info on the project that I missed but it appears you were guessing. No big deal either way.
warboss wrote: ...snip...and more recently taking the special character sculpts and turning them into just 1 special mode for the veritechs instead of the 3 they agreed to do.
I'm hoping that was only done for the "exclusives" and not the rewards outlined in the kickstarter. Changing it to just one mode would outright be fraud based on what was promised during the campaign.
warboss wrote: ...snip...and more recently taking the special character sculpts and turning them into just 1 special mode for the veritechs instead of the 3 they agreed to do.
I'm hoping that was only done for the "exclusives" and not the rewards outlined in the kickstarter. Changing it to just one mode would outright be fraud based on what was promised during the campaign.
Just to be clear... the "special" sculpt will be one mode only but the other two modes will still be included. They'll just be generic valkryie sprues instead. What I'm talking about at the Rick Hunters and Roy Fokkers.
warboss wrote: Don't forget the factory in china that did the actual parts splitting to prioritize their own time/machines/effort and not the final visual effect or ease of assembly! Yes, ND does deserve a portion of the blame but by all accounts,
My question is, by who's accounts? While I'm not prepared to excuse ND completely, some commenters are adamant about ND being blamed for this or that. And they may well be. But they're stating facts not in evidence. Where's the certainty come from? To my knowledge, ND haven't spoken publicly about any problems. And I haven't seen people claiming ND admitted fault privately. Because if there's a source other than Kevin, Wayne, or Jeff, or someone who got their information from Kevin, Wayne or Jeff, I'd be interested in knowing.
Again, if ND are responsible, absolutely they should shoulder the blame. But after 2.5 years of this campaign, and hearing about all the crap that Kevin's pulled with blame deflection, I find any assertion of blame coming from him (or his cohorts) as a source, with no corroborating evidence, to be highly suspect, at the least. I need more than Palladium's word that someone has done them wrong. Kevin's burned through all benefit of the doubt with me, regarding his word. I read through the Coffin debacle, and the other two that had similar experiences. So, I'll take ND's silence as more credible than PB's assertion, all things considered.
warboss wrote: they stopped contributing to the mess over a year and a half ago. They're done and gone. There is only so much blame I can assign to a company that has been hands off since summer of 2014 when so many new and continuing problems exist over a year later. There is plenty of blame to go around but the lion's share falls straight into Kevin Siembieda's lap. Also, it is important to note that subsequent projects by ND have seemingly improved since they screwed up on Robotech and Relic Knights so they at least seemed to have learned a lesson. Palladium, however, still plods along getting stuck in the same ditches over and over again.
Yet some people are still trying to argue that it's a new experience, and that there are teething problems, etc. Yeah, that excuse was valid for Wave 1. While it's still technically the one project, Wave 2 is the same fething thing, just with less things to do. What I mean there, is that while the sculpts are all different and more varied than the base box, most of the other stuff (core box, expansion boxes, cards, art templates for all of those, rulebook, dice, counters, and blast template) are done. There's no new ground to tread. There's work to be done, but it's all work they've done before. Yet, as you say, they continue to make the same mistakes.
At least we know why the fan friends are so blind to douchey moves by Palladium.. they have hair like cousin It from the Adams family blocking their senses and sensibilities apparently!
warboss wrote: At least we know why the fan friends are so blind to douchey moves by Palladium.. they have hair like cousin It from the Adams family blocking their senses and sensibilities apparently!
yeah dude definately needs a haircut, looks like his hair is an overgrown version of Chris Farley's
Nice to see that the mods over on the Palladium Forums decided enough was enough, and that getting the stats for conventional vehicles out is just unacceptable unless it's on Palladium's timeframe, which currently stands at 139 days late. Can't let people who might be interested in actually using these things, use them, and potentially spend money with one of their partners. I mean that'd be danged unfair (unless PB are getting a cut).
Kinda like the Malcontent dice that seemed to be moderately popular. And Palladium noticed that, and declared they wanted to handle it (and get their cut). And here we are, 13+ months later, and nothing.
I understand the need for protecting IP. But PB's resolute determination to stifle any attempts to keep interest in RRT, when it's clear they just couldn't give a feth, is just amusing, sad and pathetic. They seem dead set on making sure this is a failure, and making sure that noone else steps up. If they were a public company, I'd think they sold short on stock price.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, I got bored. And did a graphical representation of the campaign's timeline, as numbers in text format sometimes don't explain the whole "picture".
Just to be clear... the "special" sculpt will be one mode only but the other two modes will still be included. They'll just be generic valkryie sprues instead. What I'm talking about at the Rick Hunters and Roy Fokkers.
That's not what I paid for, and will be grounds for suit.
actually PB did charge RoW backers shipping costs and thats gonna cost PB big time so like the original statement said splitting wave 2 into 2 or more waves is not only doable for PB but ludicrous in thinking PB will spend more then they have to.
The amount they'll have to ship this time around will be less...not more. And if they split wave 2 into a 3rd wave..they can gain money between those two deliveries. You act as if splitting waves is impossible. It isn't. Sometimes eating some shipping costs to get product into the consumers hands faster is worth it. If they can get 8-10 model sets into the hands of backers faster by splitting it that way..they will. Now, whether or not they will do that...no one knows.
and most likely the low ordered units are the ones that PB said will be made in pewter, as it goes we have backers who bought nothing or very little if anything in wave 1 and bought exclusively wave 2 items.
Well nothing has been officially announced by them...so as it stands currently, everything seems to be in plastic for the moment...with the exception of the SDF-1 and the objective markers.
seriously you say you know how PB operates and you think they are going to give the backers anything for free?
They've done it before with the previous crowd sourcing projects. My friend got more original pieces of art than was part of his pledge. While that may not seem like much to you..he really liked that.
too funny. also they have pretty much made the convention exclusives available to the open market already.
They made them available to the public consumption once. The only way you have a chance in hell to get them now is request them through a grab bag. Otherwise, the availability is currently: backers only.
and we have yet to see PB's version of the infantry stats, remember all the rules are not in the book, the special rules and such are on the cards. which PB has not released as of yet.
The rules for infantry is in the core rules of the game. If they add special rules like running..it would greatly help. However, currently as they stand using the stat cards provided by Mike..they are a useless unit. The range of their guns is too short to make them worth using if they can only move 5" a turn (and pray they never have to move through difficult terrain).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Joyboozer wrote: Guys, all the miniatures are fully completed, packed and ready to ship, the current delay is Kevin writing the update that announces it.
CaptKaruthors wrote: actually PB did charge RoW backers shipping costs and thats gonna cost PB big time so like the original statement said splitting wave 2 into 2 or more waves is not only doable for PB but ludicrous in thinking PB will spend more then they have to.
The amount they'll have to ship this time around will be less...not more. And if they split wave 2 into a 3rd wave..they can gain money between those two deliveries. You act as if splitting waves is impossible. It isn't. Sometimes eating some shipping costs to get product into the consumers hands faster is worth it. If they can get 8-10 model sets into the hands of backers faster by splitting it that way..they will. Now, whether or not they will do that...no one knows.
and I repeat you are making PB seem more reasonable and human then they really are, evidence? PB said Backers would get product first, that turned out to be a lie since product was in stores several months before RoW backers got their product furthermore it was hitting stores before even all American backers got their product, and before you go say it was not a lie a lie is an intentional uttering of something that is known to be not true, PB never had the intention of sticking to their word, which they have shown time and time again. just on this project, also you still think PB intends to get wave 2 or whatever out, this is not the case, right now PB is fighting to keep their lights on, hell Kevin has already flooded eBay with hundreds of items some really pricey in an attempt to keep the lights on, soon there will be nothing left of PB so my intention is to get my money they owe me before they go bankrupt.
and most likely the low ordered units are the ones that PB said will be made in pewter, as it goes we have backers who bought nothing or very little if anything in wave 1 and bought exclusively wave 2 items.
Well nothing has been officially announced by them...so as it stands currently, everything seems to be in plastic for the moment...with the exception of the SDF-1 and the objective markers.
we already know the objective markers, the bases and the SDF-1 are the items in resin, real simple easy to make items that PB cannot make for some reason.
seriously you say you know how PB operates and you think they are going to give the backers anything for free?
They've done it before with the previous crowd sourcing projects. My friend got more original pieces of art than was part of his pledge. While that may not seem like much to you..he really liked that.
were they art items that cost PB anything? no if it costs PB money to make and/or produce they are not giving it away for free.
too funny. also they have pretty much made the convention exclusives available to the open market already.
They made them available to the public consumption once. The only way you have a chance in hell to get them now is request them through a grab bag. Otherwise, the availability is currently: backers only.
and all anyone has to do is request RRT Conv Exc. on their surprise package wishlist and they will get them, not hard to do.
and we have yet to see PB's version of the infantry stats, remember all the rules are not in the book, the special rules and such are on the cards. which PB has not released as of yet.
The rules for infantry is in the core rules of the game. If they add special rules like running..it would greatly help. However, currently as they stand using the stat cards provided by Mike..they are a useless unit. The range of their guns is too short to make them worth using if they can only move 5" a turn (and pray they never have to move through difficult terrain).
and I repeat without the rule cards you don't know what they are capable of, like what their missiles do and such, also what do you expect infantry to be super human? last time I checked a human didn't rate so well against a tank.
and I repeat you are making PB seem more reasonable and human then they really are, evidence? PB said Backers would get product first, that turned out to be a lie since product was in stores several months before RoW backers got their product furthermore it was hitting stores before even all American backers got their product, and before you go say it was not a lie a lie is an intentional uttering of something that is known to be not true, PB never had the intention of sticking to their word, which they have shown time and time again. just on this project, also you still think PB intends to get wave 2 or whatever out, this is not the case, right now PB is fighting to keep their lights on, hell Kevin has already flooded eBay with hundreds of items some really pricey in an attempt to keep the lights on, soon there will be nothing left of PB so my intention is to get my money they owe me before they go bankrupt.
Despite what you believe. There is precedence that they'll honor their obligations to backers. They've done it twice with other projects. Your personal vendetta against PB has clearly cost you your objectivity...and like I said before...if it comes down to them going bankrupt..or whatever...you aren't getting all your money back. Your chances to get what money you spent back is better served by selling what you have. But I've had this round and round with you before. I'm not doing it again. It's a waste of calories.
we already know the objective markers, the bases and the SDF-1 are the items in resin, real simple easy to make items that PB cannot make for some reason.
I'm not disagreeing with you there. Why they aren't making it is beyond me. Probably because of choice B..which I stated several posts ago...if you were even reading what I wrote.
were they art items that cost PB anything? no if it costs PB money to make and/or produce they are not giving it away for free.
LOLz...yes it cost PB something! They had to pay artists for that work! You think the artists do the work for free? And giving it away when they could sell it (which they have before) means...yes it costs them something in that exchange.
nd all anyone has to do is request RRT Conv Exc. on their surprise package wishlist and they will get them, not hard to do.
Didn't you read what I said? I said that! However, xmas grab bags aren't going to last forever...and after that...it's backers only. Look, I've said several times now that they should just sell those models as box sets. Pack 3 FPAs in a box with cards..and boom. Instant box set. They aren't doing it though. Why? Because: reasons. Anyone that's bought multiples of those models already is using and playing with wave 2 items.
and I repeat without the rule cards you don't know what they are capable of, like what their missiles do and such, also what do you expect infantry to be super human? last time I checked a human didn't rate so well against a tank.
And I repeat. The cards I'm using are provided by Mike. I'm pretty sure those cards are going to be how PB will make them. Why would they change them? That means they have to work more. Currently there is no special rules for them other than Hands, Life is Cheap, and Zentraedi Infantry...and the weapon stats for their weapons are in the fething core rulebook. Again, seriously..do you even play this game? Also, last time I checked, full size zentraedi aren't necessarily comparible to human infantry. However, I would like to think that the creators of the game tested these units out...obviously they didn't. Because if they did..they'd realize that the zentraedi infantry are garbage. I've already gave reasons why this is. Please read why I have that opinion. It's based on actually playing many games with them. If they could boost their spd like mecha or have an ability to spend command points to run..they'd go from crap to average right there...and forget about ever putting them in difficult/rough terrain..they'll never get where the need to go moving 2.5" a turn.
CaptKaruthors wrote: and I repeat you are making PB seem more reasonable and human then they really are, evidence? PB said Backers would get product first, that turned out to be a lie since product was in stores several months before RoW backers got their product furthermore it was hitting stores before even all American backers got their product, and before you go say it was not a lie a lie is an intentional uttering of something that is known to be not true, PB never had the intention of sticking to their word, which they have shown time and time again. just on this project, also you still think PB intends to get wave 2 or whatever out, this is not the case, right now PB is fighting to keep their lights on, hell Kevin has already flooded eBay with hundreds of items some really pricey in an attempt to keep the lights on, soon there will be nothing left of PB so my intention is to get my money they owe me before they go bankrupt.
Despite what you believe. There is precedence that they'll honor their obligations to backers. They've done it twice with other projects. Your personal vendetta against PB has clearly cost you your objectivity...and like I said before...if it comes down to them going bankrupt..or whatever...you aren't getting all your money back. Your chances to get what money you spent back is better served by selling what you have. But I've had this round and round with you before. I'm not doing it again. It's a waste of calories.
you like to keep throwing that out there, and yet there is also precedence books PB says they will be doing have vanished never to see the light of day. then there is the northern gun books which surprise surprise happened to show up right after they got their money from this project, not saying they used money from this project to fund those books, but it is very coincidental if you ask me, then there is the latest weekly slap in the face from PB telling us how they are putting this project on the back burner for a couple of weeks (which they also said last week too) which tells me, they are doomed in court too since they should be putting all efforts into a project they were paid for. and you keep saying we won't get money back, got news for you, if a court decides in our favor PB has to pay, failure to do so will place a lien on their business and their business stock and could force their business, IPs and stock to be sold at auction to pay off their debts, so not only will PB go out of business, they will not even own Rifts.
we already know the objective markers, the bases and the SDF-1 are the items in resin, real simple easy to make items that PB cannot make for some reason.
I'm not disagreeing with you there. Why they aren't making it is beyond me. Probably because of choice B..which I stated several posts ago...if you were even reading what I wrote.
why they are not making them is simple and easy, they are backer exclusives and there is no money in it for them, if you haven't figured out by now how PB is not going to put out things where they make no money is beyond me. as far as PB is concerned the exclusives are money losers and not worthy of working on or even looking at.
were they art items that cost PB anything? no if it costs PB money to make and/or produce they are not giving it away for free.
LOLz...yes it cost PB something! They had to pay artists for that work! You think the artists do the work for free? And giving it away when they could sell it (which they have before) means...yes it costs them something in that exchange.
seriously you have no clue how PB's fan friends deal works.
nd all anyone has to do is request RRT Conv Exc. on their surprise package wishlist and they will get them, not hard to do.
Didn't you read what I said? I said that! However, xmas grab bags aren't going to last forever...and after that...it's backers only. Look, I've said several times now that they should just sell those models as box sets. Pack 3 FPAs in a box with cards..and boom. Instant box set. They aren't doing it though. Why? Because: reasons. Anyone that's bought multiples of those models already is using and playing with wave 2 items.
your so funny when you think that it will end there, PB said they were for backers only, over and over and over again, how long did that last?
and I repeat without the rule cards you don't know what they are capable of, like what their missiles do and such, also what do you expect infantry to be super human? last time I checked a human didn't rate so well against a tank.
And I repeat. The cards I'm using are provided by Mike. I'm pretty sure those cards are going to be how PB will make them. Why would they change them? That means they have to work more. Currently there is no special rules for them other than Hands, Life is Cheap, and Zentraedi Infantry...and the weapon stats for their weapons are in the fething core rulebook. Again, seriously..do you even play this game? Also, last time I checked, full size zentraedi aren't necessarily comparible to human infantry. However, I would like to think that the creators of the game tested these units out...obviously they didn't. Because if they did..they'd realize that the zentraedi infantry are garbage. I've already gave reasons why this is. Please read why I have that opinion. It's based on actually playing many games with them. If they could boost their spd like mecha or have an ability to spend command points to run..they'd go from crap to average right there...and forget about ever putting them in difficult/rough terrain..they'll never get where the need to go moving 2.5" a turn.
PB has had Mikes cards for months and then some and never put them out so what does that tell you? and just because you cannot see uses for infantry does not mean they do not exist. they were never meant to be equal to mecha and such but can still go round for round in CC with them. as it goes PB when they designed this game did not design it right, since you got jets which could vanish off a board in one turn never to return and so forth.
Getting back on topic it does seem like PB does want the backers to go away. They clearly aren't used to facing criticism from people who could care less about becoming their fan friends.
Rick how long after January 1st will you begin your legal proceedings? I'm stupid enough to still hope wave two will materialize but with Kevin's recent actions it's feels like he's trying to creep away from his responsibilities.
With nothing to show in the past several months, it's hard to imagine PB is doing anything but trying to run out the clock.
June 6, 2015
Wave Two – by the end of 2015?
We want Wave Two out yesterday. Or even better, last year. That can’t happen. We are shooting for the end of 2015 and will do EVERYTHING we can to make that a reality. But as I hope you are beginning to understand, things are not always under our absolute control.
To be honest, we have been so savaged for the many delays and changing release dates in the past, that we are afraid to offer release dates or certain details until we are sure of them. That has resulted in fewer updates over the past few months. In fact, I have had several advisors tell me not to even say that we are trying hard for an end of 2015 release for Wave Two. But we really are. That’s what I want more than anything. If we can make it happen, we will. Again, going into all the reasons for the delays or why we might not be able to make a release date is excruciating and we are not going to put ourselves or you through that pain. We just aren’t. We will, of course, release what we consider to be reasonable information and data as we get it. And we’ll try to do so more often. PLEASE remember this is all a work in progress. Things change.
We hope that you realize Wave Two and all future releases mean money for Palladium and its partners, as well as a vibrant future for the game line, so if we can get product out faster we most certainly will! End of year is the plan. If we can do it sooner, even better! But no promises. And might it be later? Maybe. We don’t know yet. When we have a much clearer idea for a release date we will post it! Until then, we have some cool stuff coming your way
We more than anyone know how murderous that wait for RRT Wave Two is for everyone. Well, we hope to soften the wait and keep you energized by doing a number of things that we hope will make it a little less painful and demonstrate Palladium’s commitment to Robotech® RPG Tactics™. In fact, we are dedicating a huge part of our time and focus over the next several months to getting RRT WAVE TWO finished by the end of the year (no promises) as well as the many things we’re listing below!
Cypher-xv wrote: Getting back on topic it does seem like PB does want the backers to go away. They clearly aren't used to facing criticism from people who could care less about becoming their fan friends.
Rick how long after January 1st will you begin your legal proceedings? I'm stupid enough to still hope wave two will materialize but with Kevin's recent actions it's feels like he's trying to creep away from his responsibilities.
soon as the courts allow, my attorney just finished off a draft he will be filing along with motions of discovery, were gonna see if we can nail PB for misappropriation of funds and get dear old Kevin some prison/jail time, to go with the loss of his company.
We are shooting for the end of 2015 and will do EVERYTHING we can to make that a reality.
That's a pretty bold statement, and Kevin had damn well hope has put in the hours and work to back it up, because if he's been focused on other things, you can nail him to the wall for fraud.
We are shooting for the end of 2015 and will do EVERYTHING we can to make that a reality.
That's a pretty bold statement, and Kevin had damn well hope has put in the hours and work to back it up, because if he's been focused on other things, you can nail him to the wall for fraud.
well the motion of discovery were going to use to see if PB used any funds from this project for other projects like northern gun, if he did that constitutes fraud since he has failed to deliver on this project and if he is out of money for this project then he is sunk.
I think most of us could probably toss you that much right now if we wanted to. And you've noted yourself that they don't want to risk word of refunds getting out and starting a 'bank run'.
But unless the lights are out and they're literally eating shoe leather and boiled books for nourishment, it's not that they 'can't afford to'.
They just bragged about some dude buying $420 (plus shipping) worth of grab bags. They've got your money right there!
I think most of us could probably toss you that much right now if we wanted to. And you've noted yourself that they don't want to risk word of refunds getting out and starting a 'bank run'.
But unless the lights are out and they're literally eating shoe leather and boiled books for nourishment, it's not that they 'can't afford to'.
They just bragged about some dude buying $420 (plus shipping) worth of grab bags. They've got your money right there!
but according to fanfriends of PB there are only a dozen of us who want refunds? so why not refund us since so few, or is there?
I think most of us could probably toss you that much right now if we wanted to. And you've noted yourself that they don't want to risk word of refunds getting out and starting a 'bank run'.
But unless the lights are out and they're literally eating shoe leather and boiled books for nourishment, it's not that they 'can't afford to'.
They just bragged about some dude buying $420 (plus shipping) worth of grab bags. They've got your money right there!
but according to fanfriends of PB there are only a dozen of us who want refunds? so why not refund us since so few, or is there?
Your estimates on how many fan friends there are are just as bad as their estimates on how many want refunds now.....melodramatic much?
I don't want to read 80 pages to try and get caught up but why is this thread so angry? What didn't they do?
I was thinking of grabbing a starter to use for battletech, do they mix well? Is tactics game play any good and is there a free rules download anywhere?
Well I look forward to significant litigation progress in, what, January? February? Surely it won't take a full quarter just to fire off the opening volley.
That'd be... downright Palladium'esque.
Days since the last update: 33
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **122**
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 253
Days until the end of Q1 2016 (surely Rick's Legal Grand Slam Hyper Tournament Alpha Edition will have fired off by then): 144
Days until the end of Q2 2016: 235 (current target)
Days until Gencon 2016: 268
Days until the end of 2016: 419
And once his lawyer buddy lands a (figurative) killing blow, we can ignore the rest of the countdowns because he will have proof that they misappropriated funds, are unable to continue the project, will have paid him off, paid off his lawyer, gotten violated for 5 or 6 figures in penalties, be tarred, feathered, run out of town, and someone will probably make some more mean memes about Kevin to put on Mike's FB page.
But at least the rest of the countdowns will finally be over.
I mean, I would take them all down now, but might as well keep 'em rolling until at least the first panicked Newsletter begging for a Fan Friend Call To Arms goes out.
usernamesareannoying wrote: I don't want to read 80 pages to try and get caught up but why is this thread so angry? What didn't they do? I was thinking of grabbing a starter to use for battletech, do they mix well? Is tactics game play any good and is there a free rules download anywhere?
Actually, if you read the first thread, it's over 400 pages, probably 250 of them angry. The list of infractions is quite long.
Quick summary of what they did wrong. Obviously, subjective, depending on expectation. And by no means comprehensive. - Incredibly late. What was supposed to be 7 months to completion is now at 29 months, with no end in sight. They're claiming another 8 months, but I wouldn't bet on that. - Broken promises. Several issues, most prominent was "Backers First". Backers were explicitly promised (several times) their rewards before it went retail. Didn't happen. - Bait and switch. The people some of us thought would be running the project, aren't. The people actually running it have a reputation for incompetence and idleness. - Communications. They refuse to address backers concerns. They promised to communicate better several times, and since the last time (June this year) have failed in both quantity (significantly less posts) and quality (zero) with regards Wave 2. They've SAID they've been working consistently on the project, yet the last time they showed us anything (physical or digital) was over 9 months ago. - Arguably deceptive. There have been a lot of statements that have been made, mostly regarding progress, that have in hindsight been shown to be false. While some of these may have been said with a sincere belief they were true at the time, some simply do not. Saying less than 4 months out from the original delivery date it should still be on time when given what was later found out about the progress, they could never have accomplished that. Similarly, they headed off complaints about seams and parts count (next point) by adamantly saying it couldn't possibly be done any other way. Then, as shown, they did it Heck, the current delay is being excused as doing just that, though some people believe this is just a smokescreen for delay given the lack of progress shown in the previous point.
And probably the ones most likely to be an issue for you, - Model vs miniature. There was significant issue with the parts counts per model. Some of us were expecting closer to the industry standard, of 8-10 parts per model, maybe a little more if extra articulation was included. The parts tend to be in the 20-25 per model (vanilla Battlepods being the exception at 15+ base). This part approach has led to a lot of splitting. For example, the Spartan (Archer)'s arms are 1-3 parts, and that increased parts count doesn't really have any additional articulation. And the missile pods on that model don't come with the option for being open or closed. You get one set of open pods, and one set of closed pods, for each pair. - There is also the matter of seams. Due to the higher parts count, and the poor placement of mold splits, these models have a tendency to show seams in some pretty awful places if you don't assemble them well as seen here. To be fair, this was a prototype that was disassembled and reassembled, but you can see where the issues will be, if you handle it poorly. Also, that particular model was redesigned, and the most egregious issue (the missile pod covers) were fixed. - There are also some minor issues some have with detail. Specifically the look of exposed missiles on the Spartan (Archer) and Longbow (Phalanx). The latter to me, is the worst.
You should definitely have a look before committing. You can see detailed sprue and assembly instructions here. You'll need to scroll down a couple entries, but there's a comprehensive list of Wave 1 models that you can download for free. That's everything that comes in the box.
On the plus side, the models are mostly of a scale for Battletech. The Glaug (Marauder) is apparently a little large in comparison, and the Veritech (Stinger/Wasp/Valkyrie) may be big in comparison. And when the models are done by a skilled modeller, that can handle the seams, they don't look half bad (though I'd hesitate to ever call them GOOD). But there is a LOT of work there, to get them to standard.
I think most of us could probably toss you that much right now if we wanted to. And you've noted yourself that they don't want to risk word of refunds getting out and starting a 'bank run'.
But unless the lights are out and they're literally eating shoe leather and boiled books for nourishment, it's not that they 'can't afford to'.
They just bragged about some dude buying $420 (plus shipping) worth of grab bags. They've got your money right there!
but according to fanfriends of PB there are only a dozen of us who want refunds? so why not refund us since so few, or is there?
Your estimates on how many fan friends there are are just as bad as their estimates on how many want refunds now.....melodramatic much?
never said how many fan friends they have now did I ?
usernamesareannoying wrote: Thank you Morgan.
Aside from kickstarter issues and 100 piece models what is the consensus on the system?
Is it fun, crap somewhere in the middle?
That is a matter you will have to determine on your own. However, my opinion is the rules are decent, it is fun, for me, and feels relatively balanced. It has it's issues, but not as broke as a GW game, faster than Battletech, and simpler to learn than both. Not as easy to learn as an Attack Wing game, and also not quite as intuitive.
usernamesareannoying wrote: Thank you Morgan.
Aside from kickstarter issues and 100 piece models what is the consensus on the system?
Is it fun, crap somewhere in the middle?
That is a matter you will have to determine on your own. However, my opinion is the rules are decent, it is fun, for me, and feels relatively balanced. It has it's issues, but not as broke as a GW game, faster than Battletech, and simpler to learn than both. Not as easy to learn as an Attack Wing game, and also not quite as intuitive.
Pretty much what Calvin said. It doesn't look horrible, but there are some overly unnecessary rules (I'm looking at you, Close Combat Rules). And it does run into a very particular wall, much like Battletech does. That being that the record keeping is complicated enough that it'll limit the ease of doing significantly large battles, but is simple enough that I think running skirmish level wouldn't give the detail needed. On the latter, at least, Mike is working on a skirmish set, that may solve that issue. And to be fair, for the size of game RRT recommends (15-30 models a side), it looks like they hit the sweet spot.
For the most part, though, it's one of the few aspects of the game that isn't greatly disliked. I'll see if I can find a copy of the rules from the KS page (the link on the page is 404-ing), though that might take a day or two. Unless someone beats me to it. It's not complete, but it'll give you a general idea of what to expect.
usernamesareannoying wrote: Thank you Morgan.
Aside from kickstarter issues and 100 piece models what is the consensus on the system?
Is it fun, crap somewhere in the middle?
That is a matter you will have to determine on your own. However, my opinion is the rules are decent, it is fun, for me, and feels relatively balanced. It has it's issues, but not as broke as a GW game, faster than Battletech, and simpler to learn than both. Not as easy to learn as an Attack Wing game, and also not quite as intuitive.
Pretty much what Calvin said. It doesn't look horrible, but there are some overly unnecessary rules (I'm looking at you, Close Combat Rules). And it does run into a very particular wall, much like Battletech does. That being that the record keeping is complicated enough that it'll limit the ease of doing significantly large battles, but is simple enough that I think running skirmish level wouldn't give the detail needed. On the latter, at least, Mike is working on a skirmish set, that may solve that issue. And to be fair, for the size of game RRT recommends (15-30 models a side), it looks like they hit the sweet spot.
For the most part, though, it's one of the few aspects of the game that isn't greatly disliked. I'll see if I can find a copy of the rules from the KS page (the link on the page is 404-ing), though that might take a day or two. Unless someone beats me to it. It's not complete, but it'll give you a general idea of what to expect.
Well with Skirmish I combined Kick and Punch into attack and Power Punch and Power Kick into Power Attack. So I dropped 4 different HTH attack and replaced them with 2 different ones. Honestly I've seen very little HTH in games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for the record, compared to most other things I really enjoy the rules.
Rules wise, the basic 'engine' works. Makes sense. But many specific details add up to really drive the playability of the game down, and act as bad game design choices.
Examples:
Missiles are so far superior to other weapons, that the best move is to fire missiles as often as possible until you run out. Missiles one-shot enemies, guns don't. Also, everything has missiles en-masse, which are also very hard to stop. So the first turn is both sides missile destroying about half of the other, repeated for two or three more turns until the leftovers clean up.
Close Combat is idiotic, and the number of 'moves' is irrelevant. You just walk around jump-kicking until targets are dead when melee is involved. Battle Pods are a billion times more effective kicking repeatedly than using their actual weapons.
Blast Missiles are stupidly powerful and Indirect Fire has literally no downside.
There's a lot of redundant rules, IE Antimissile and dodge stepping on each other's toes.
Heroes are largely pointless. They're marginally OK and generally just die to missiles.
'Build your own character' rules don't even remotely work. A hero you make isn't much better than a normal unit, yet costs like 4-5 times as much.
Valkyries, the stars of the show, have bad ordinance options you generally don't take... as well as the fact that Guardian/gerwalk mode is by far the best due to being most flexible, best firepower AND most flexible.
Just these issues make the game not really interesting compared to alternatives unless you are in it just for the IP...
Killionaire, your last point applies to every Palladium product.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm guessing their current plan is release at gencon, before sending anything to backers, and sell as much as they can before all the bad reviews, with some kind of new and improved rulebook.
Killionaire wrote: Rules wise, the basic 'engine' works. Makes sense. But many specific details add up to really drive the playability of the game down, and act as bad game design choices.
Examples:
Missiles are so far superior to other weapons, that the best move is to fire missiles as often as possible until you run out. Missiles one-shot enemies, guns don't. Also, everything has missiles en-masse, which are also very hard to stop. So the first turn is both sides missile destroying about half of the other, repeated for two or three more turns until the leftovers clean up.
Close Combat is idiotic, and the number of 'moves' is irrelevant. You just walk around jump-kicking until targets are dead when melee is involved. Battle Pods are a billion times more effective kicking repeatedly than using their actual weapons.
Blast Missiles are stupidly powerful and Indirect Fire has literally no downside.
There's a lot of redundant rules, IE Antimissile and dodge stepping on each other's toes.
Heroes are largely pointless. They're marginally OK and generally just die to missiles.
'Build your own character' rules don't even remotely work. A hero you make isn't much better than a normal unit, yet costs like 4-5 times as much.
Valkyries, the stars of the show, have bad ordinance options you generally don't take... as well as the fact that Guardian/gerwalk mode is by far the best due to being most flexible, best firepower AND most flexible.
Just these issues make the game not really interesting compared to alternatives unless you are in it just for the IP...
Agreed on many points.
Missiles...they are powerful and that reflects the cartoon. I've found the GU-11 OTOH vicious at times. Missiles can be shot down. Direct Fire weapons must be dodged. Missiles are an all or nothing. If they get shot down they are a waste. I see them as the most dependent on good and bad dice rolls. A partial change is to let things that have Rapid Fire spend additional command points to improve the AM roll.
RAW Normal Weapons - Cost 1 Command Point and need a 6.
Anti-Missile - No cost and need a 5+
Missiles with Anti-Missile need a 4+
My version
+1 per Rapid Fire use.
For example the VF is often seen blasting away to shoot down missiles. It can also Rapid Fire twice in Battloid. So you can pay one command point and need a 6....you can pay two command points, rapid firing once, and need a 5+ because you get a +1 bonus to the die....OR you can pay 3 Command Points and need a 4+ since you get a +2 bonus. This makes sense and explains the blasting away like crazy with the GU-11 vs just using the head lasers on the VT.
Example 2 is the FPA. They have mini-missiles with Anti-Missile and need a 4+ to shot down missiles. The min-missile launchers also have Rapid Fire. The player could pay one command point, fire and expend 2 ammo and need a 3+ since they get a +1 bonus for rapid firing.
I just felt this better reflected the actual cartoon but it also is something you will only want to try with key units.
Close Combat has all the same attacks as the RPG, but most you will rarely use, if at all.
Blast Missiles have been fixed with the last FAQ that they should have done over a year ago. I had been asking since week 1 after I received my pledge.
Heroes, the optional rule above fixes that for the most part.
Character rules are stupid, I re-wrote those and shared my version months before things went to print.
Valks have good options. Want missile protection, use mini-missiles. Want firepower and range, mediums or Long. The GU-11 is vicious if you can get some VT's in Battloid into some heavy cover they will prove themselves. The +1 GN in Battloid also makes each shot that much harder to dodge!
Has anyone filed litigation yet? If not, why not? It needs to happen. I think we can all admit were never getting ehat we paid for, and of we do, were probably sticking it in a bin and never using it anyway. At least via litigation we can get our pound of flesh, best case scenario is that some other company picks up the license and pulls a Cryptozooic and finishes wave 2 for us (if you dont know what I mean study up on the Doom that Came to Atlantic City fiasco).
Nobody will pick up the license of an older anime that's owned by HG. That is why Palladium was able to renew it. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy up this game. Who would want to inherit all these headaches, angry customers, legal threats, unfulfilled obligations, etc.?
What happened with Doom was different since the game's creators took it back and found another way to publish it.
Anybody that thinks this will be saved by a non-Palladium company is fooling themselves. Only Palladium will be able to complete this project.
The only chance of someone taking over RRT and moving on with it is with the new Robotech movie and people who do that are going to Michael Bay it all and it will not be anything like what we remember.
n815e wrote: Nobody will pick up the license of an older anime that's owned by HG. That is why Palladium was able to renew it. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy up this game. Who would want to inherit all these headaches, angry customers, legal threats, unfulfilled obligations, etc.? What happened with Doom was different since the game's creators took it back and found another way to publish it.
Anybody that thinks this will be saved by a non-Palladium company is fooling themselves. Only Palladium will be able to complete this project.
I agree with almost everything you said. Especially the last bit, about PB being the only ones to complete this project.
That does not mean that another company can't make the game moderately successful though, following a rebirth. It'd be an uphill battle, but with significant work and substantial investment on their part, I believe it's possible, especially if they go out of their way to make sure that they distance themselves completely from KevCo, not just publicly, but privately as well. It'd need to be a clean break, and they'd have to be almost flawless moving forward. That's where Kevin's plans for a reboot are going to run into issues. Any reboot Kevin manages is going to be seen through the lens of the stuff that happened before. And I doubt many people are going to give them any latitude.
But back to the topic discussed, this'll do nothing for existing backers. Those people would be hosed. There's no way that a DTCTAC style saving will happen. Simply put, there's just too much money involved. Even if the W2 molds were complete, and production had been paid for (unlikely), you're probably looking at least one to two hundred thousand dollars of straight up lost income. Having to do the work from the point that we've seen from PB (and their assurances aside, I don't expect it to be much more than what they've shown), it could be upwards of half a million to complete it as it stands. That's too big an initial hole to start in. They MIGHT offer discounted product to people owed product, as a marketing/goodwill ploy, but it'd still be production costs + labor costs + actual shipping at the very least. And for a number of backers, throwing more money at the project for stuff already "owed" isn't going to go over well.
TLDR - Another company COULD save "the game", but not the "campaign". Backers will get nothing unless PB do it.
Anybody that thinks this will be saved by a non-Palladium company is fooling themselves. Only Palladium will be able to complete this project.
"Complete" is relative, really. I think Palladium will deliver Wave 2 in some format at some point. But RRT as a game or system? My opinion is "effectively dead, do not resuscitate".
It'd take a whole eco-system reboot and management to get the tabletop gaming line going again, and would need a total product strategy that's not apparently in place at the moment. Palladium did not demonstrate sufficient skillset in this area, and seems particularly disinterested in learning, so odds are not very good.
If they deliver on their obligations, the project is complete.
Then, at the very worst, we have a Macross game. At best they will continue to produce further eras and provide at least a decent amount of support for it.
I also don't think the game is "dead".
That's simply too subjective of a statement.
actually i put it at about PB needing $700-800 thousand more dollars to finish wave 2, between molds, production and delivery.
they are not done with molds, if they were we would have samples, they are not done with production, (see molds), and according to Kevin wave 1 delivery was like $150-200K.
so for those of you who think PB will pull this off and deliver wave 2 your dreaming, no way PB can get that kind of money.
A game's 'lifespan' is dictated by a lot of things, we've seen games that were officially no longer supported by their creators that had resurgences with considerable public player community support.
But for a niche of a niche of a niche game like this, it takes more than "product exists" to breathe life into it. PB themselves admit they're lacking general support (as noted with the comments about hoping for wave 2 mid 2016 and using that as a relaunch of the line along with organized play support). They have an almost effortless way to expand things with conventional figures but have spent, what, a third of a year sitting on that after Mike and co handed it to them on a silver platter? They produced an FAQ that hasn't seen an update since mid February (aside from the Blast rule change).
I guess we'll see how things go. Presumably there'll be another steep discount sale at CSI and other sites around Black Friday; whether that's just part of them enticing people, or clearing out stock that isn't moving, only time will tell.
n815e wrote: Nobody will pick up the license of an older anime that's owned by HG. That is why Palladium was able to renew it. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy up this game. Who would want to inherit all these headaches, angry customers, legal threats, unfulfilled obligations, etc.?
What happened with Doom was different since the game's creators took it back and found another way to publish it.
Anybody that thinks this will be saved by a non-Palladium company is fooling themselves. Only Palladium will be able to complete this project.
Only PB could or would complete RRT, it based on their RPG rule set, a non-starter right there for anyone who has played their system.
Any other company would restart from the ground up, both the models and rules. Any other company would also understand the contact they signed and if they could even do a stand alone miniature game instead ln the first place. Instead of already starting a project to find out the can't and needing to tie it in to their RPG.
The support that has been provided by PB for the game has done more to damage my interest in the game than anything else. I have never seen a more bungled and confused FAQ, and the convoluted, totally insane brick of text that is the new blast ruling was the last nail in the coffin for my hope that this game was going anywhere.
The lack of support was at least just that, and it is far better than being a blathering fool.
Only PB could or would complete RRT, it based on their RPG rule set, a non-starter right there for anyone who has played their system.
You miss the point. Only PB could complete this project because nobody else will touch it. Whether or not you like (or have even tried) the rules is irrelevant.
Any other company would restart from the ground up, both the models and rules.
Only PB could or would complete RRT, it based on their RPG rule set, a non-starter right there for anyone who has played their system.
You miss the point. Only PB could complete this project because nobody else will touch it. Whether or not you like (or have even tried) the rules is irrelevant.
n815e is correct, Robotech instantly became toxic the moment WRRD helped Palladium get the rights.
After we we're fooled this time into believing Ninja Division would be doing the heavy lifting, who'd believe Robotech would ever be Palladium free now?
Not that Palladium care, they were only concerned with loosing the piddling amount of income they get from Robotech RPG sales.
Joyboozer wrote: n815e is correct, Robotech instantly became toxic the moment WRRD helped Palladium get the rights.
After we we're fooled this time into believing Ninja Division would be doing the heavy lifting, who'd believe Robotech would ever be Palladium free now?
Not that Palladium care, they were only concerned with loosing the piddling amount of income they get from Robotech RPG sales.
A few fallacies here that we can clean up.
First, Palladium already had the rights to the RPG, and RRT was made under that license. Hence the Robotech RPG Tactics part, and WRRD only presented the idea of how they could apply those rights....a minis game, RRT.
Second, I think Palladium fooled themselves by being stupid and making the assumption that ND would do a lot more than they did. Simply put PB did not read the contract and assumed too much.
Third, Palladium, already had the rights, nobody else could have made RRT no matter who wanted to. WRRD had to go to Palladium, there was simply no other options.
Fourth, as how PB has treated this, I'm just as annoyed as anyone else.
There were plans by at least two other parties im aware of who were planning on approaching HG for the license to produce a miniature wargame on its renewal, unfortunately they made the mistake of actually doing all the groundwork first.
I'm not disagreeing with you mike, but I do know had palladium not been given the go ahead, we would have ended up with a much more competently delivered game actually aimed at tabletop gamers, no RPG elements.
Approaching them and actually getting a minis license are two VERY different things.
There is a reason that they did things under the RPG license. If not, yes, things would be different, but your central premise is based on an unknown....could and would HG do a straight up miniatures game? If they could why the pretense with PB and the effort to do it under the RPG? That makes no sense unless they could not or would not or were simply too lazy to. Only the third option makes it even possible for your scenario to work IF someone indeed approached HG. Planning and doing are worlds apart.
I would be interested in seeing exactly what Palladiums submission to HG consisted of, the ones I mentioned were being prepaired by people passionate about Robotech with experience and contacts in all the necessary fields from design and logistics.
I really hope the reason Palladium got it was not because of some ridiculous notion it could not be done any other way or nobody else was interested.
I recall something along the lines of early on WRRD and Paulson approached HG and they were sent to PB. HG wasn't interested in making this themselves.
Also, at a recent Robotech convention panel, one fan asked HG if there are any plans to make model kits and Kevin Mckeever told him to buy RRT.
I think it is safe to say that Robotech is something that most of us posting here loves and it is in the stewardship of the lazy and the incompetent.
n815e wrote: I recall something along the lines of early on WRRD and Paulson approached HG and they were sent to PB. HG wasn't interested in making this themselves.
Also, at a recent Robotech convention panel, one fan asked HG if there are any plans to make model kits and Kevin Mckeever told him to buy RRT.
I think it is safe to say that Robotech is something that most of us posting here loves and it is in the stewardship of the lazy and the incompetent.
^^^ This is my understanding as well and fits with what WRRD has in his blog. Nobody else that I know had actually approached HG or PB. You can have the best ideas in the world but if you don't bring them to the right people it means nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though he was very quick to blame backers when they weren't happy with the results.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll say it again, just in case, I'm sure WRRD is a perfectly decent guy, I just don't like the way he responded in regards to the results of this project.
Blame is rather a moot point now.
It is now a matter of salvaging what models we think we can get and administer appropriate hardship on PB for not making good on what they agreed to do with our money.
Talizvar wrote: Blame is rather a moot point now.
It is now a matter of salvaging what models we think we can get and administer appropriate hardship on PB for not making good on what they agreed to do with our money.
I want to see if I can get some Gnerls somehow. Someone already made a really sweet 3D paper Gnerl but that will require a lot of patience to put those together, more than you'd need to glue a Spartan.
I'd initially contacted HG directly, they were interested in the idea however various companies already had the rights to toys and games parked up even if they weren't actively producing them. They are waiting for the movie that's supposed to happen. Palladium has held the rpg rights for ages and it's considered to be a different license than "game rights" so they could shoe horn it in so long as it's branded an "RPG" product. Even though they are technically making both models and a game which would potentially intrude on two different license holders.
Basically interest in Robotech from the major toy companies is dead until there's positive progress on the movie production, but they have license options locked in place, which are basically paid for place holders in line. It prevents anyone else from coming in with a competing product even if the option holder produces nothing. When there's nothing actively being produced it seems like a really dumb way to handle things, but it's the way that film rights get brokered.
Options are at a reduced fee compared to a full license, they pay a small portion to hold their place for a certain amount of time, if they exercise their option and put something into production then they switch over to paying the full license rate. If they do nothing then every couple of years they have to re-new their options bid (depending on how long the contract if for) This allows for toy companies like Hasbro or whoever to hold a spot in line and be able to start making products as soon as a film or video game etc goes live. But if the film or cartoon never sees the light of day the option holders don't get stuck spending the full amount of money on a dead property.
Unfortunately the way things are set up there aren't really any ways to go around PB, at least as far as getting a miniatures game done. (as they've since expanded their RPG license specifically to include RRT, which is mentioned in one of their murmurs)
Our only hope then is that some sort of japanese company picks up the rights to a tabletop macross minis game.. which isn't likely. I can't think of a single game in this hobby made by a Japanese company despite the fact that they make so many great models.
warboss wrote: Our only hope then is that some sort of japanese company picks up the rights to a tabletop macross minis game.. which isn't likely. I can't think of a single game in this hobby made by a Japanese company despite the fact that they make so many great models.
Bandai made a Gundam tabletop minis game awhile back, but never bothered to do anything with it outside of Japan. There are a ton of RPGs that never get translated as well.
warboss wrote: Our only hope then is that some sort of japanese company picks up the rights to a tabletop macross minis game.. which isn't likely. I can't think of a single game in this hobby made by a Japanese company despite the fact that they make so many great models.
Bandai made a Gundam tabletop minis game awhile back, but never bothered to do anything with it outside of Japan. There are a ton of RPGs that never get translated as well.
Yeah, something like that... but that just happened to be in English. We'd still have to import it (at a jacked up price of course) but that would be preferrable to the "honor" of paying to be lied to, ignored, and trolled in slow alternating succession for years.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mike1975 wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: well, except Gnerls, which I really want....
Because of the stats/gameplay or is it just your favorite design?
Talizvar wrote: Blame is rather a moot point now.
It is now a matter of salvaging what models we think we can get and administer appropriate hardship on PB for not making good on what they agreed to do with our money.
I want to see if I can get some Gnerls somehow. Someone already made a really sweet 3D paper Gnerl but that will require a lot of patience to put those together, more than you'd need to glue a Spartan.
I'm still tweaking my Gnerls, problem is they have such a big cavity it is a pain, plus working with tinkercad is not so easy on the shape of the Gnerl
warboss wrote: Our only hope then is that some sort of japanese company picks up the rights to a tabletop macross minis game.. which isn't likely. I can't think of a single game in this hobby made by a Japanese company despite the fact that they make so many great models.
Hence why many wonder at my strong support for RRT. It is not going to happen if it is not via PB or with the new movie. And if it with a new movie you know it will not be the same. What 2 hour movie could compare to a 36 episode cartoon and show the story? And if they do a movie all the mecha and more will change. Just the simple truth.
warboss wrote: Our only hope then is that some sort of japanese company picks up the rights to a tabletop macross minis game.. which isn't likely. I can't think of a single game in this hobby made by a Japanese company despite the fact that they make so many great models.
Bandai made a Gundam tabletop minis game awhile back, but never bothered to do anything with it outside of Japan. There are a ton of RPGs that never get translated as well.
Yeah, something like that... but that just happened to be in English. We'd still have to import it (at a jacked up price of course) but that would be preferrable to the "honor" of paying to be lied to, ignored, and trolled in slow alternating succession for years.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mike1975 wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: well, except Gnerls, which I really want....
Because of the stats/gameplay or is it just your favorite design?
Gnerls are sweet in the game.....they can be upgraded with Long Range Missiles and become a true terror.
I've seen a 1/200 gnerl on shapeways. From the published dimensions, it's about half an inch longer than a properly scaled one. I'm debating whether I want to drop $23 for one to cast up.
I've also found a 1/285 scale VF-4 in fighter mode, but without the other 2 modes, it isn't so useful for me.
No idea. GHQ did the sculpt and they are primarily used to doing 6mm stuff. This was in a way their first 28mm mini since they hadn't made infantry/people that big as far as I know.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I expect GHQ to improve with time if they keep making minis for RRT.
I just love this fun of wanting/needing the models for RRT and PB figures that GHQ is the way to go for pumping out new product.
But they still owe a bunch of us KS product.
So they have our money, but got more stuff made in NA to get moar of our money.
Dastardly fiends they are.
What is REALLY upsetting me is I am trying to convince myself to get over my pride and at least buy one of each of the new product and mold it up (personal use!).
I am assuming that any communication from PB at this point is to try to get us to spend more money or stave-off successful litigation... just enough to cast doubt on the rumors.
I think Mike would like the Gnerls also because then we get into proper aircraft combat and those little guys look like a pain in the rear to make.
Talizvar wrote: I just love this fun of wanting/needing the models for RRT and PB figures that GHQ is the way to go for pumping out new product.
But they still owe a bunch of us KS product.
So they have our money, but got more stuff made in NA to get moar of our money.
Dastardly fiends they are.
warboss wrote: Our only hope then is that some sort of japanese company picks up the rights to a tabletop macross minis game.. which isn't likely. I can't think of a single game in this hobby made by a Japanese company despite the fact that they make so many great models.
Bandai made a Gundam tabletop minis game awhile back, but never bothered to do anything with it outside of Japan. There are a ton of RPGs that never get translated as well.
Does anyone have a link to this mythical game? I've never seen it, but it sounds like an interesting project for winter break...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Never mind. Someone apparently already beat me to it...Gundam Collection 1/400
Whelp, due to a power outage at the office they'll be delaying the weekly update.
I, for one, am simply on the edge of my seat as to whether or not there'll be future subtle changes added to the Q2 target, and if the weeks of RPG focus will be extended to best deliver product to the hands of those that they truly love.
Spoiler alert; the filthy needy wargaming peasantry will continue to get vague nods at best.
But at least they'll continue to emphasize the immense savings found in the grab bag! And how you can even as for a core box if you really want to! Even though doing so from the continental US would cost $53 for a core (with media mail shipping), whereas CSI could easily end up at $50 a core and a pair of them (or other stuff) at $100 would qualify for free shipping.
But act now, only a limited number* of them will be allocated!
*number limited by the piles of them sitting in the warehouse, please ignore the attempt to push artificial scarcity.
Forar wrote: Whelp, due to a power outage at the office they'll be delaying the weekly update.
I, for one, am simply on the edge of my seat as to whether or not there'll be future subtle changes added to the Q2 target, and if the weeks of RPG focus will be extended to best deliver product to the hands of those that they truly love.
Spoiler alert; the filthy needy wargaming peasantry will continue to get vague nods at best.
But at least they'll continue to emphasize the immense savings found in the grab bag! And how you can even as for a core box if you really want to! Even though doing so from the continental US would cost $53 for a core (with media mail shipping), whereas CSI could easily end up at $50 a core and a pair of them (or other stuff) at $100 would qualify for free shipping.
But act now, only a limited number* of them will be allocated!
*number limited by the piles of them sitting in the warehouse, please ignore the attempt to push artificial scarcity.
But remember, the grab bag robotech allotment is "limited" so you have to order fast before they run out! I mean... we all know that master wordsmiths at palladium don't throw around words like "first" or "exclusive" willy nilly so you really do have to act fast in order to guarantee that you'll be able to get it.
Talizvar wrote:
BTW that little modification is awesome!
Morgan Vening wrote:Now see, this.... this is art.
Thanks. In case anyone is jumping to conclusions, no I don't think Palladium screwed this project up on purpose or came into it with nefarious reasons. I do firmly believe though that they're incompetent braggarts who fail to recognize their shortcomings in advance nor have any desire to change their ways when those shortcoming are blatantly obvious even to them after years of denial. Admitting they've failed and then doing nothing publicly to show that they've learned from it is pointless. I don't care if they had the theoretical "best of intentions" when they started the project; their actions for the past two years show their contempt in practice for the people that believed them and that speaks much louder. They delivered most copies of RRPGT in 2014 which makes 2015 a wasted full year for the "valued" backers. What have/will we get for a full year of supposed hard work on the project we funded in 2013? A blast rule correction. That's it. Twelve months and we get a few paragraphs of text. And, no, failing to achieve even ancillary follow up side projects that they've worked on INSTEAD of the main project doesn't count (especially since they mostly screwed that up too). We didn't fund conventional vehicles, metal special character models, or advanced rules.. but yet that is the only whiff of supposed "progress" shown for the entirety of 2015.
Talizvar wrote:
BTW that little modification is awesome!
Morgan Vening wrote:Now see, this.... this is art.
Thanks. In case anyone is jumping to conclusions, no I don't think Palladium screwed this project up on purpose or came into it with nefarious reasons. I do firmly believe though that they're incompetent braggarts who fail to recognize their shortcomings in advance nor have any desire to change their ways when those shortcoming are blatantly obvious even to them after years of denial. Admitting they've failed and then doing nothing publicly to show that they've learned from it is pointless. I don't care if they had the theoretical "best of intentions" when they started the project; their actions for the past two years show their contempt in practice for the people that believed them and that speaks much louder. They delivered most copies of RRPGT in 2014 which makes 2015 a wasted full year for the "valued" backers. What have/will we get for a full year of supposed hard work on the project we funded in 2013? A blast rule correction. That's it. Twelve months and we get a few paragraphs of text. And, no, failing to achieve even ancillary follow up side projects that they've worked on INSTEAD of the main project doesn't count (especially since they mostly screwed that up too). We didn't fund conventional vehicles, metal special character models, or advanced rules.. but yet that is the only whiff of supposed "progress" shown for the entirety of 2015.
You forgot the paper standees. Don't forget the paper standees! Well, except for them bolloxing that too, by not having something they could have had ready a year or more ago (the stat cards), but have chosen not to do during their "constant work on the project".
I agree I don't think they intentionally went in with ill intention, and while I'm sure incompetence is their default setting, I'm finding it hard to believe that at least at this point, it's less about earnest incompetence, and more about "ahh, to hell with it". Like you said, the contempt and deflection speak as loudly as the lack of anything but the vaguest of information.
On a wild conspiracy theory thought though, regarding Forar's post. Maybe the weather didn't take out the power grid. Maybe they defaulted on their utility bill. The end is nigh! Bring out your dead! I don't THINK this happened, but it would in no way surprise me at this point. And it'd be just the kind of bs excuse that PB would use to cover their butts. Cause can't detract from the Grab Bag time! It's the most wonderful 14 weeks of the year! With an extra 3 weeks during Summer.
Did they actually come out with the standees yet? The last time I checked, they had not (and had apologized because they were distracted by a squirrel in the parking lot or something for weeks).
edit: I stand corrected. They did come out with the standees. So.. to correct my earlier statement... all we have to show for the entire year's worth of "effort" on this long overdue project is a single rules correction and some paper standees... you know... what Mike1975 does on his own in his spare time for fun one weekend.
warboss wrote: Did they actually come out with the standees yet? The last time I checked, they had not (and had apologized because they were distracted by a squirrel in the parking lot or something for weeks).
edit: I stand corrected. They did come out with the standees. So.. to correct my earlier statement... all we have to show for the entire year's worth of "effort" on this long overdue project is a single rules correction and some paper standees... you know... what Mike1975 does on his own in his spare time for fun one weekend.
Well.....a single update that we pretty much did for them....then they changed it a bit....and if you want/need standees for any unit and any generation..just ask....I've had them done for a coupled years now.
Thanks for the offer but I'm a bit put off by Robotech for the forseeable future. Unless I find someone actually interested in playing that has figs themselves, I don't see myself doing additional legwork to support a game that palladium has shown no actual progress in completing.
@Morgan: I counted the paper standees as "progress" but it's got a big ol' asterisk by it. We didn't back "paper" minis so this is technically a side project and NOT the actual kickstarter project. That said, it's free and helpful. If they had put up wave 2 that would have pushed it over the edge but the ones I see on drive thru rpg are only wave 1.
warboss wrote: @Morgan: I counted the paper standees as "progress" but it's got a big ol' asterisk by it. We didn't back "paper" minis so this is technically a side project and NOT the actual kickstarter project. That said, it's free and helpful. If they had put up wave 2 that would have pushed it over the edge but the ones I see on drive thru rpg are only wave 1.
Oh, I was definitely being unserious. As I (and others) said when they were released, good idea, a year at least too late.
And no, Wave 2 aren't up. As per the PBWU two weeks ago,
Wayne had meant to post the Wave 2 paper game pieces on DriveThruRPG last weekend, but then it was pointed out that you guys still need the cards to play them. With the book deadline we’ve been up against this week, he hasn’t yet been able to export the files and post them, but they should start going up in the next few days, along with their associated paper game pieces.
That's what I was meaning regarding them bolloxing it. They've had 18 months (at least) to get Wave 2 cards ready for production. But instead of getting the stuff they CAN do (like these cards, or the resin components) and showing progress, they seem to be of the feeling that until they get what they want to get done, done, getting the things that can easily be done, is better off holding off.
Seriously, if they do meet their current target (which admittedly, I highly doubt), I fully expect an Update after they get the product in, saying that anyone with resin pieces will be delayed, as they haven't done them yet, or there's a hold up of some kind. There was zero reason why the resin components couldn't have been done in the leadup to Wave 1 (given it's 9 month delay), but they chose not to do it then, either. I'm not sure if produced resin has an expiry date, but unless it's got a really short shelf life (in which case, why use it?), there's no excuse for these to have not been started a couple weeks after the Pledge Manager concluded.
I know that Christmas grab bag season is the time of year when they see a big influx of cash, but after Kevin is done giving so much stuff away do they end up with any profit?
n815e wrote: I know that Christmas grab bag season is the time of year when they see a big influx of cash, but after Kevin is done giving so much stuff away do they end up with any profit?
well if people requested RRT items, then they got money they would not have gotten.
Generally they sell to distributors at 40-50% off so the discount you get with the grab bag is about the same as they give to distributors... and the customer foots the entire shipping bill... and you have to pay upfront... and they get to technically give you whatever THEY want and are not obligated to give you exactly what you ask for. I'm not sure about the shipping for distributors (maybe Cyporiean can answer that one) but the rest are certainly in Palladium's favor in terms of the grab bag versus normal industry sales. The savings on the grab bag are definitely greater than anything else you get from Palladium (and the only one I ever got I was happy with in 2013) but if anything the napkin math says they're MORE profitable than when palladium sells through the normal industry.
I always thought their grab bags was an excuse to clear out non-moving stock and free up space in their warehouse for stuff that sells, like mugs, mouse pads, print-on-demand clothing - oh wait nevermind... Sorta like when I bought a bunch of anime DVDs and the store decided to throw in some Hello Kitty DVDs for free. Because clearly from my long purchase history with various Gundam, Ghost in the Shell, Armored Trooper VOTOMs, Evangelion, Mospeada, Southern Cross, etc, they thought I'd be interested in Hello Kitty too.
If I didn't end up with more battlepods, I'd be tempted to get some more items as I need some extra Valks to convert up some Supers and maybe try doing up a VF-1D and VE-1 as well. More destroids and even another box of artillery pods would be useful. I just don't want to give PB more money.
I still can't believe there hasn't been any progress on those, especialyl the SDF-1 bases which I didn't get, but I'm sure there were people who did with the intent of using it to base their models. I do fear the quality of the resin that PB would approve though. Imagine the mold lines, air bubbles and vent placement because there was no other way(tm)(c)(r).
Because those things aren't free to design or produce, and those take money that PB doesn't have.
And let's say that they DO produce those things. What, then? They are going to ship them, at their own cost, knowing that they'll eventually have to ship something to you again, and at their cost again?
That stuff isn't happening, not unless everyone gets a "free" resin SDF-1 and then signs an agreement with PB that prohibits them from pursuing legal action or disclosing the outcome of the KS.
Yeah, I'm with Warboss (and others) on this one. From what I've read, standard wholesale price is roughly 1/2 of MSRP, and PB are very clear about people paying $42 for $86-100'ish in stuff (basically, 40-50%).
So unless they're stuffing these things heavily, no, if anything they're basically turning product that's just sitting around into cash at roughly what they'd be getting through a distributor (yes, yes, before anyone bothers, I'm aware that it's not a perfect lineup; the distributor gets a cut as well).
Throw in some art/items with artificial scarcity (ie things that they claim a higher value on than anything remotely close to what their production costs are), and other odds and ends that they pay (figurative or literal) pennies for but charge dollars (mouse pads and pencils and whatnot) and I could easily see them coming out ahead. I mean, they wouldn't do it (and wouldn't pimp it so hard) if it wasn't profitable. I really think this is how they turn random gak around the warehouse back into cash. Even at a minor loss, it's more efficient to have capital on hand again than Rifters (purely an example) that nobody is paying full price for in the first place, nor gaming shops are clamoring to keep in stock.
So even if they 'lose', they win. Like the core boxes we've been joking about them having a 'limited supply of'; Someone paying ~$45 for one as their *only item* is still probably about on par what they'd expect to get from a non-webstore sale anyway, within a reasonable margin of error. And if you have 1000 of them sitting around, taking a small haircut to move some of the stupid things is all around a net good, doubly so if that person then puts in more grab bags or other purchases for expansions. From them directly would of course be the highest ROI, but even driving up demand at local stores works to their advantage.
Yet a savvy consumer would be much better off if they just waited to see if CSI has another 50+% off sale at the end of the month. 2 cores for $100 and free shipping alone would be a solid deal. Under the working assumption that Wave 2 remains MIA for years or indeffinitely, it's basically what backers paid (2 cores, an Artillery Pod pack and a Spartan/Phalanx pack would basically come to what a KS backer got in wave one, at roughly the same price).
@cannonfodr: if you want a few more things but don't want to reward PB's gaky business practices, go to the secondary market. Buy off a backer or ebay or wherever, see if you can snag a solid deal while not handing them any money directly or indirectly (in that sure it's a negligible increase in demand, it's through random dudes like us rather than the distribution network itself). I still ponder selling off some of what little I have left now and then, maybe we can work something out to further trim my remnants and hook you up.
What it comes down to is, product sitting in their warehouse is costing them money, it is money lost, so right now anything they can get for it, is a win win for them.
Forar is correct as well. They assign an arbitrarily high number value to a signed print that likely cost them 15 seconds of time to autograph collectively and 30 cents to print out (featuring art that was long ago paid for)... viola! $10 value! That old rifter issue that they were GIVING away at gencon to ANYONE who walked by? (they literally used to have a stack of free rifters every year I went to gencon for 10+ years) Value... full sticker price despite the fact that they might only sell a couple of that issue for years once it's more than 1-2 issues old. Again, I was satisfied completely with what I got for my grab bag (my top "must want" items were indeed included) but I also got a worthless (to me) rifter that I threw away after skimming and a couple of prints that I stuffed in my unused Rifts "ultimate" 98% rehashed edition copy. I do believe that they try to give folks at least some of what they actually want but they also pad the rest of the advertised value with what they themselves DON'T want hanging around as well taking space. It's not deceptive either as the old name used to be grab bag which flat out indicates a random assortment.
As said above, I don't believe the grab bags cost them money otherwise they wouldn't do it year after year (and this year MULTIPLE times... each time offering robotech "exclusives", lol).
The xmas grab bags is just a way for them to liquidate warehouse inventory to reduce the amount of taxes they have to pay on it. My company does the same thing with items in our warehouse. Better to sell it at a reduced cost...or even a loss to clear it out of the warehouse than pay taxes on something that sits there. Also, if you do sell it as a loss...I think you can report it as a loss on your taxes.
Well, converting assets to liquid assets is a priority if you have somewhere else you need the money (paying for dies, wages, keeping lights on).
I have seen many times companies I have worked for upset because they need to take out a loan to take care of on-going business while they have assets sitting in stock.
It is like buying too much stuff on-sale or investing too much and then having to lean on a credit card to get you through the rest of the month: better to have the cash on-hand than pay the interest.
Unfortunately I had filed against them with the BBB so a "grab bag" for me could result in a signed lump of coal or excrement rolled in glitter.
CaptKaruthors wrote: The xmas grab bags is just a way for them to liquidate warehouse inventory to reduce the amount of taxes they have to pay on it. My company does the same thing with items in our warehouse. Better to sell it at a reduced cost...or even a loss to clear it out of the warehouse than pay taxes on something that sits there. Also, if you do sell it as a loss...I think you can report it as a loss on your taxes.
except they already paid taxs on these items earlier this year, this is stock they received last year they still have. so won't get double taxed on it.
also for PB to sell at a loss, they have to sell it for less then they paid for it.
Just an FYI.. there is a youtube tab when you post on dakka. You can embed the videos directly into the post just like images. Thanks for the link in any case.
Unfortunately I had filed against them with the BBB so a "grab bag" for me could result in a signed lump of coal or excrement rolled in glitter.
Especially made just for you! It's priceless!
We both know nothing is ever exclusive to backers so stop spreading lies! Palladium is perfectly willing to crap all over regular customers as well and don't you forget it. And it wouldn't be priceless but worth EXACTLY between $86-95.
CaptKaruthors wrote: The xmas grab bags is just a way for them to liquidate warehouse inventory to reduce the amount of taxes they have to pay on it. My company does the same thing with items in our warehouse. Better to sell it at a reduced cost...or even a loss to clear it out of the warehouse than pay taxes on something that sits there. Also, if you do sell it as a loss...I think you can report it as a loss on your taxes.
except they already paid taxs on these items earlier this year, this is stock they received last year they still have. so won't get double taxed on it.
also for PB to sell at a loss, they have to sell it for less then they paid for it.
It doesn't matter what year the item was made. You pay taxes on your stocked inventory every year. This is why a lot of stores, etc. have blow out sales at the end of the year...so when it comes to tax time they only pay taxes on the inventory they have left.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The battle report is awesome. Some minor mistakes with the rules were made, but nothing too crazy. Just note that the main gun of the Glaug can't be dodged or rolled. You just take the 6pts of damage and like it.
CaptKaruthors wrote: The battle report is awesome. Some minor mistakes with the rules were made, but nothing too crazy. Just note that the main gun of the Glaug can't be dodged or rolled. You just take the 6pts of damage and like it.
Probably better to comment on the Youtube video itself, I certainly didn't have anything to do with it, and while I haven't watched it, I'm going to guess Mike just wanted to share it in general.
CaptKaruthors wrote: The xmas grab bags is just a way for them to liquidate warehouse inventory to reduce the amount of taxes they have to pay on it. My company does the same thing with items in our warehouse. Better to sell it at a reduced cost...or even a loss to clear it out of the warehouse than pay taxes on something that sits there. Also, if you do sell it as a loss...I think you can report it as a loss on your taxes.
except they already paid taxs on these items earlier this year, this is stock they received last year they still have. so won't get double taxed on it.
also for PB to sell at a loss, they have to sell it for less then they paid for it.
It doesn't matter what year the item was made. You pay taxes on your stocked inventory every year. This is why a lot of stores, etc. have blow out sales at the end of the year...so when it comes to tax time they only pay taxes on the inventory they have left.
you might want to go back and read that link you posted, especially the part about
also reason why most stores have sales around this time of year is to make room for new inventory, furthermore by selling product for less then your retail value you can claim the loss on your taxs for your previous years inventory tax.
better yet go talk to a tax attorney and they can show you the error of your ways.
That was a great video, thanks for posting Mike.
It's a shame we didn't have videos of this quality on release, it would have a lot more inspiration than what Palladium did for promotion.
Is this a one off? Or will these guys be doing more?
I don't need to, because I know the answer. Most businesses reduce their inventory by years end for tax purposes (they will pay less taxes on it.) Local tax laws also vary as well at the state level. My company does it all the time at the end of the year. I also did it when I worked at a hobby store 12 years ago. End of the year sales is all about reducing inventory so your overhead is lower for your end of the year tax bill. Most inventory reorders if you are turning your inventory on blowout sales are usually not reordered until late January/February. That's why you see empty shelves through most of January/February in retail stores. It's readily apparent in toy stores, and other smaller retail chains. You don't see it as much in big box stores. Palladium does this to reduce their inventory and move dead stock. It isn't for the charity of the fans.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Joyboozer wrote: That was a great video, thanks for posting Mike.
It's a shame we didn't have videos of this quality on release, it would have a lot more inspiration than what Palladium did for promotion.
Is this a one off? Or will these guys be doing more?
Agreed. The video is one of the better Robotech Battle reports I've seen. They got some of the rules wrong, but nothing that ruined the game or the report. It's also good to see fully painted forces for both sides. Something that's rare to see in the Robotech battle reports I've seen. It will be cool to see more of these if these guys are up for it. Once I get my stuff fully painted, I'd like to do some battle reports...but probably won't be video ones. I'm too lazy to edit a video. I already post pictures of my games on my FB page when I play.
Whether it's for tax breaks or just to turn stock into capital or whatever, PB's ~1/3 of the year 'Christmas' grab bag season is well known.
Though given their silence this year on Robotech wave two, "feth me we need money and fast" seems more pertinent than "oh noes perhaps our tax rate will go up a smidge" (hyperbole for comedic effect, before anyone's knickers get in a twist).
CaptKaruthors wrote: I don't need to, because I know the answer. Most businesses reduce their inventory by years end for tax purposes (they will pay less taxes on it.) Local tax laws also vary as well at the state level. My company does it all the time at the end of the year. I also did it when I worked at a hobby store 12 years ago. End of the year sales is all about reducing inventory so your overhead is lower for your end of the year tax bill. Most inventory reorders if you are turning your inventory on blowout sales are usually not reordered until late January/February. That's why you see empty shelves through most of January/February in retail stores. It's readily apparent in toy stores, and other smaller retail chains. You don't see it as much in big box stores. Palladium does this to reduce their inventory and move dead stock. It isn't for the charity of the fans.
never said it was for the charity of the fans, PB is doing it to clear out product not moving, as to new product, which is usually showing up in the stores around Black Friday its when the new PS's and X-Boxs, and computers and so on show up in stores, tell me you have never seen new product showing up in stores end of year? why? because they are going for the christmas rush, as to taxs, businesses only pay taxs on their products they made a profit on, thats simple business 101, even that article you linked to says that, as to remaining inventory the only effect it has on new taxs is for claiming losses, or no profits.
as to new product, which is usually showing up in the stores around Black Friday its when the new PS's and X-Boxs, and computers and so on show up in stores, tell me you have never seen new product showing up in stores end of year?
I'm talking about after the holidays. The time when they are clearancing everything out. Your holiday inventory is usually ordered in the early summer and if you have the capacity to store it in your store...you can get it as early as August into your store. It all depends what your retail store sells, etc. The hobby store I worked at would get their xmas inventory shipped to us in mid august. Reorders rarely happened because we didn't want to be sitting with extra stock post Dec 26th if we could help it.
businesses only pay taxs on their products they made a profit on, thats simple business 101, even that article you linked to says that, as to remaining inventory the only effect it has on new taxs is for claiming losses, or no profits.
Your warehoused inventory is still overhead and assets. You still pay the taxes on the value of your assets. Which is why PB has a tax bill they pay every year for the stacks of spare/old rifters/ other items that is fundamentally "dead inventory" they warehouse, etc. The wrinkle in that is: end of the year can mean actual end of the year..or the end of the fiscal year for your business which may be different. Reducing inventory means paying less taxes on your assets..because the value is lowered. Thus xmas grab bags for everybody. It's a great way to liquidate inventory but look like you are being charitable by giving deep discounts.
as to new product, which is usually showing up in the stores around Black Friday its when the new PS's and X-Boxs, and computers and so on show up in stores, tell me you have never seen new product showing up in stores end of year?
I'm talking about after the holidays. The time when they are clearancing everything out. Your holiday inventory is usually ordered in the early summer and if you have the capacity to store it in your store...you can get it as early as August into your store. It all depends what your retail store sells, etc. The hobby store I worked at would get their xmas inventory shipped to us in mid august. Reorders rarely happened because we didn't want to be sitting with extra stock post Dec 26th if we could help it.
businesses only pay taxs on their products they made a profit on, thats simple business 101, even that article you linked to says that, as to remaining inventory the only effect it has on new taxs is for claiming losses, or no profits.
Your warehoused inventory is still overhead and assets. You still pay the taxes on the value of your assets. Which is why PB has a tax bill they pay every year for the stacks of spare rifters, other items that is fundamentally "dead inventory" they warehouse, etc. The wrinkle in that is: end of the year can mean actual end of the year..or the end of the fiscal year for your business which may be different. Reducing inventory means paying less taxes on your assets..because the value is lowered.
problem is they do not pay taxs on product in inventory, they only pay taxes based on projected profit analysis for the next year, and product not sold, is not taxed again but can be written off as non-taxable for the next year and any product estimated to sold that did not sale they would get reimbursed on the new taxs.
also you do realize stores are not "sitting" on PS4's and such, they may order them but they usually do not arrive to their warehouse till shortly before the release date of said product, you, your talking about seasonal product, and normal turn around product i'm talking new this year product.
Oddly, PB's holiday grab bag seems more of a sure thing than any of their pre-orders.
Probably why they still have some satisfied customers: anything from the back catalogue they are more than happy to get out to you.
They must do some serious soul searching when they run out... list it as OOP or do another print run OR photo copy an "edit review" copy and sign it... genius!
They must do some serious soul searching when they run out... list it as OOP or do another print run OR photo copy an "edit review" copy and sign it... genius!
Or just take people's money and do NOTHING to fill that order for years... just sayin'... if it ain't (made them) broke (by lawsuits) then don't fix it.
For those that don't know if your not happy with PB and your not from the USA you can still file a report with the FTC. I'm getting fed up with Kevin and his dishonest fashion of running the KS. I'm torn between wanting to file with the BBB and MIAG and waiting to see if they will deliver. How long is a reasonable wait till backers say feth it and go legal on PB?
Cypher-xv wrote: For those that don't know if your not happy with PB and your not from the USA you can still file a report with the FTC. I'm getting fed up with Kevin and his dishonest fashion of running the KS. I'm torn between wanting to file with the BBB and MIAG and waiting to see if they will deliver. How long is a reasonable wait till backers say feth it and go legal on PB?
several people have already passed that point and filed with the MIAG and FTC.
Cypher-xv wrote: For those that don't know if your not happy with PB and your not from the USA you can still file a report with the FTC. I'm getting fed up with Kevin and his dishonest fashion of running the KS. I'm torn between wanting to file with the BBB and MIAG and waiting to see if they will deliver. How long is a reasonable wait till backers say feth it and go legal on PB?
Filing a complaint with any entity would not affect PBs obligation to deliver in anyway, its not an either/or situation.
The only thing that could would be a bankruptcy, an actual settlement from a suit with them, or a regulatory body clapping them in chains for fraud (which may not affect your individual right of recovery, just make it a bit less likely)
Cypher-xv wrote: For those that don't know if your not happy with PB and your not from the USA you can still file a report with the FTC. I'm getting fed up with Kevin and his dishonest fashion of running the KS. I'm torn between wanting to file with the BBB and MIAG and waiting to see if they will deliver. How long is a reasonable wait till backers say feth it and go legal on PB?
Filing a complaint with any entity would not affect PBs obligation to deliver in anyway, its not an either/or situation.
The only thing that could would be a bankruptcy, an actual settlement from a suit with them, or a regulatory body clapping them in chains for fraud (which may not affect your individual right of recovery, just make it a bit less likely)
I'd disagree the backers in Washington got a refund on another KS when their AG went after the creator, but then the FTC while it did levy fines on another KS to reimburse the backers, the creator was penniless, but that is not the case with PB which consists of property and such which could be auctioned off to settle with the backers.
the only certainity is doing nothing, if you do nothing, you will not get a refund or anything.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
We have been kicking around all kinds of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out (and, of course, that includes all the specialty items like the SDF-1 and objective markers). In fact, we’ve just made a couple of new contacts that could be very promising for the future of Robotech®.
Kicking around ideas! Making new contacts! Exciting times in the world of RRPGT!!!
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
We have been kicking around all kinds of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out (and, of course, that includes all the specialty items like the SDF-1 and objective markers). In fact, we’ve just made a couple of new contacts that could be very promising for the future of Robotech®.
Kicking around ideas! Making new contacts! Exciting times in the world of RRPGT!!!
Is it just me or does that update read as "we just remembered the resin items and had to start calling around about those two, so far we haven't actually made the calls, but will update as soon as we've spoken to someone"
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
We have been kicking around all kinds of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out (and, of course, that includes all the specialty items like the SDF-1 and objective markers). In fact, we’ve just made a couple of new contacts that could be very promising for the future of Robotech®.
Kicking around ideas! Making new contacts! Exciting times in the world of RRPGT!!!
Is it just me or does that update read as "we just remembered the resin items and had to start calling around about those two, so far we haven't actually made the calls, but will update as soon as we've spoken to someone"
Hey, at least they finally acknowledged it. I think it's the first time since late 2013 that they actually mentioned it. So, that's "progress" at least.
As for the "bulk" of the remainder, I thought they were focusing on the the Rifts® Chaos Earth® Resurrection™ * and Rifter Double Issue? Oh, they're not completed yet either? So again, they're gonna continue to half-ass three (or more) projects and stretch it out, instead of just completing one and getting it done. It's painfully clear they can't multi-task.
* Seriously, enough with the protection symbols, guys, the rights para at the bottom of each post is sufficient. Can you imagine Kevin talking about this over the phone to a potential customer?
"Hey, I'd like to pre-order a half dozen of the new Rifts book coming out."
"Do you mean the Rifts registered trademark Chaos Earth registered trademark Ressurection trademark?"
"Yeah, that. And three boxes of Robotech Tactics."
"So, three boxes of Robotech registered trademark RPG Tactics trademark? We also have available the Robotech registered trademark colon Expeditionary Force Marines trademark Sourcebook. Would you like any of those? Hello? Are you still there? Guess the awesome caused the phoneline to drop out."
Morgan Vening wrote: * Seriously, enough with the protection symbols, guys, the rights para at the bottom of each post is sufficient. Can you imagine Kevin talking about this over the phone to a potential customer?
"Hey, I'd like to pre-order a half dozen of the new Rifts book coming out."
"Do you mean the Rifts registered trademark Chaos Earth registered trademark Ressurection trademark?"
"Yeah, that. And three boxes of Robotech Tactics."
"So, three boxes of Robotech registered trademark RPG Tactics trademark? We also have available the Robotech registered trademark colon Expeditionary Force Marines trademark Sourcebook. Would you like any of those? Hello? Are you still there? Guess the awesome caused the phoneline to drop out."
Oh, you don't know the funniest part? Back in the 90's they did a trilogy of Rifts(tm,etc) novels. They were what you'd have expected. But to show Palladium's awesome Attention To Detail(tm), at some point they had clearly go ahead and done a CTRL-R and replaced "rift" with "Rift". Meaning that you would have things like "And then Bob's hovercraft dRifted to the left". Dozens of times in these books.
I don't think that Glitter Boy(tm) in there, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had been.
Oh, you don't know the funniest part? Back in the 90's they did a trilogy of Rifts(tm,etc) novels. They were what you'd have expected. But to show Palladium's awesome Attention To Detail(tm), at some point they had clearly go ahead and done a CTRL-R and replaced "rift" with "Rift". Meaning that you would have things like "And then Bob's hovercraft dRifted to the left". Dozens of times in these books.
I don't think that Glitter Boy(tm) in there, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had been.
Wow, they were wild and free back then. Nowadays, it would be copy pasted as "And then Bob's hovercraft dRift®ed to the left". Oh, the easy and carefree 1990's! The Fresh Prince of Bel Air on TV, "I'm a barbie girl!" on the radio, and Palladium only capitalizing letters instead of trying to claim ownership of every word and consonants. The good ol' days!
I read those novels. Owned them until a year ago or so, when I finally got tired of moving them around/having them eat up space, and pitched them in preparation for another move that was coming up.
They were... not good. Not just the find/replace stuff (which doesn't stand out as strongly for me), but there were also a couple of chapters where characters flagrantly changed personalities (if not an outright error on the writers/editor's part as to whom was actually speaking), chapters that seemed to be missing or story elements that felt out of order, and an ending that was just awful (oh no, there are too many named characters left... meh, just have a big pile of them captured, insinuate that the female characters have been sexually assaulted, and then one of them pulls a grenade and we'll just write off like a dozen at once).
I bought each on release and chewed through it, as this was during the height of my Rifts/PB game playing days, but even then it felt like there were just a ton of things wrong with those books, and not simply differences of opinion in the story direction, like basic editing issues.
I believe Kevin's wife at the time (Maryann) was the editor (or did some of the work at least), and she has defended the works on their forums.
I believe Kevin's wife at the time (Maryann) was the editor (or did some of the work at least), and she has defended the works on their forums.
You are correct, she was the editor of the novels. And you are also correct about her defending herself and Palladium.. by blaming the printer for printing the wrong version. When someone queried her on their being 2 versions she then changed her story to blame an intern at Palladium for sending the wrong copy to the printer.
Well, she was just an employee, and if anything is clear, it's that Palladium Books has one, and only one corporate policy - EVERYTHING GOOD IS KEVIN'S GLORIOUS VICTORY, EVERYTHING BAD IS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT.
Whether or not all employees have to have this tattooed on their lower back, just above a sketch of Kevin(tm) is unclear at this time.
That does sound like a great, if somewhat obvious, premise for a PSA though...
Scene: MaryAnn's office, enter Kevin.
Kevin: MaryAnn, have you looked at these novels? They're full of spelling errors and sub-par editing!
MaryAnn: It's not my fault! The printer screwed up!
K: The printer did what we sen-
M: And the intern!
K: Why are you trying to blame someone else? Where did you learn that?!
M: From you, OK?! *begin crying* I learned it by watching YOU!
Narrator: Company owners who shift blame have employees who shift blame. Talk to your employees about accountability today.
Shennanigans. Kevin would have tried to TM multiple words both in verbal speech as well as insisting the TM be added to the script. I'm imagine he employs phonetic trademarking in his everyday speech similar to the system Victory Borge developed for phonetic punctuation (see video below).
its an older sculpt design, problem is my early work looks better since it was done on a much better program, the recent stuff (most shown first) was done on Tinkercad.
You know what they say! Good artists borrow, great artists something something look I don't have time to go over the particulars just give me (I mean us) a couple hundred grand and let's do this thing!
Normally, I'd post a witty comeback along with a pic of the official glitterboy mini but that isn't a fair comparison given the roughly 20 year difference in casting between the two. I did find a link though to the more recent rifts minis offerings that would be a fair comparison to an infinity 2e sculpt.
Given the almost 20 years inbetween the original Rifts minis lineup and these in 2012, it's good to see that Palladium went from making one piece awkwardly posed goofy looking 2D miniatures to... well... slightly more detailed one piece awkwardly posed goofy looking 2D miniatures.
Spoiler:
Three things....
1) There must be a very high proportion of furries in the Palladium fanbase given that roughly half the new minis were Dog Boys.
2) The original minis were slightly below average for their time in the early 90's. Palladium then spent the next 20 years to come out in 2012 with minis that would be slightly below average for the late 1990's. Progress, Palladium Style. I anxiously await what they do on their own without Ninja Division's help with the "reboot" of Robotech next year.
3) I can't stop thinking that first one is a horse boy instead.
I actually have a couple of their minis from the 90's. There was a game store that had a display of painted figures, and some of their Rifts ones were pretty cheap. Can't recall if there was a sale or something, but I snagged a CS officer and a Headhunter or something like that. The paint job wasn't exactly stellar (nor would I expect it to be for what I was paying), but it was better than I was going to do.
Used them for a couple of years in our weekly'ish Rifts games. Still have them tucked away somewhere.
Mike1975 wrote: They are also priced accordingly....$6 for a meh mini.
Admittedly they are priced like late 1990's mediocre minis. Unfortunately, once you factor in Palladium's overpriced shipping charges you end up paying more than they're worth (unless they've changed their shipping prices to something reasonable since I last checked which was admittedly a year or two ago).
Whelp, there's another release of the Weekly Megaversal Propaganda.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Things are moving on Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two (we actually had two conference calls yesterday to discuss it), but for a variety of business reasons we can not yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering. For one, if some of the things we are considering don’t pan out, we don’t want you to be disappointed. And it seems like every little while, things we were considering doing, get changed for one reason or another.
I can tell you, we want to make sure the rest of the Kickstarter items and future Robotech® RPG Tactics™ items are something special and the best product it can be, especially after the long delays in getting Wave Two into your hands. Please know that we are exploring many different possibilities, and until we nail down the final details, we just cannot talk about what were looking into. But we are exploring many things we know you will enjoy. This includes a number of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out. Stay frosty. You are far from forgotten.
To break it down;
"Things are moving" - [Citation Needed]
"we are totally progressing but can't say or show any evidence to that end, please just give us the benefit of the doubt that we so very much don't deserve"
"omg plans change" - Cool story, bro. Forget your lofty plans. Nobody cares about the bullgak that Wayne and Alex are totally slobbering over (the harshest criticism yet!). Figures. You owe them. Make that gak happen.
"We totes want to deliver, but it has to be the bestest best bettererer than best evar!" - For feths sake, no. Pointing out that people have been waiting does not, in fact, make it heartening to hear that there's more delays. 7 months lined up and let's be real, Black Friday/end of year 2016 are vastly more likely. So that blunting of bad news is... just hiding more bad news.
"We're exploring! Explorers!" - No. You're not. They're fething minis, you're not discovering a new element. Either you have new sprue breakdowns to show, or you don't. Either there's prototypes being printed off and assembled for test fits, or there aren't. Either dozens of molds are being produced, or they're not. Time to gak or get off the pot.
Oh well, in a matter of weeks we've gone from "Q2 2016" to "Q2 2016 would be ideal!" to "when the game relaunches next year (2016)"!
Really giving up ground on that one. In 2 weeks they've tacked on two more quarters. I, for one, am feeling reassured as to their ongoing commitment to making progress and keeping us informed!
Sounds more and more like they're desperately trying to find additional financial backing so that they can finish what we've already paid for, and they're either striking out big time, or Kevin is baulking hard at all the non-negotiable attached strings.
"We're exploring! Explorers!" - No. You're not. They're fething minis, you're not discovering a new element. Either you have new sprue breakdowns to show, or you don't. Either there's prototypes being printed off and assembled for test fits, or there aren't. Either dozens of molds are being produced, or they're not. Time to gak or get off the pot.
But maybe they have. Maybe that's the delay. They can't get started on the models because they want to make them in their newly discovered element - Palladimium* - but until it is officially ratified, they can't or else they risk loosing the discovery rights.
*Palladimium [PALlaDIMium] is a new element formed by crushing the hopes and dreams of 5K+ backers and fermenting for 2 years.
I think I read about Palladimium last week in a science (fiction) journal. Is that the one that is unstable and needs constant UV light shone up through the back of the containment vessel? I think the article said that the new element proves the Siembieda Progress Uncertainty Principle in that the more progress is shown to backers the less actual progress is made. That's why Palladium, just because they love us valued backers, will show us nothing tangible to enure maximum velocity towards reward completion. I mean... they made two phone calls this week! Two!
Joyboozer wrote: This sounds more and more like redoing the core game is their highest priority.
People keep saying this, but I don't agree. I think the "relaunch" is to be tied to whatever book/material they're working on (or think they can produce, unlikely as it is) for the "Advanced Rules" or "1.5 Edition" or whatever it might be.
The answer to struggling with two dozen'ish figures is not to add another dozen that are already completed back on the drawing board.
No matter how poorly we might think of their judgement, we've also always relied on their cheapness to shine through. Another 50 or 100k or more to re-cut molds for wave one would be an immense waste of time and materials. They know how popular the Super VT's and MAC-II and FPA and whatnot are; those are the figures that people will buy more of while also progressing them on the KS completion path.
Starting over with VT's and Pods would be so nonsensical I'd move from thinking they were bad at business to thinking they should have a psych evaluation, especially as a group, dictator that Kevin might be.
PB have a history of stating vague grandiose things and then delivering a cup of lukewarm canned soup (cheap, easier than they made it out to be, not likely to kill anyone but only the die hard fanboys will proclaim it the finest dinner they've ever had).
I think this is just their way of leading up to that kind of crap. A full restart this early on would set them so far back as to be laughable.
I too doubt they're going to redo the starter models. It's just endlessly frustrating to see nothing after a full year since the majority of backers got wave 1. The fact that they're still "looking" and "exploring" 16 months later after finishing development on wave 1 instead of "making" tangible rewards for wave 2 is ridiculous. The talk of a reboot is just the latest iteration of delay tactics since the previous scale change and not exclusive kickstarter exclusive models and vaporware conventional vehicle rules failed.
Well if you guys want to do something and feel like PB is jerking you around, it does not matter if your in the US or not you can file with the FTC:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/#crnt&panel1-1 or with the Michigan's AG office:
http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,4534,7-164-17331---,00.html or preferably both.
if enough backers file with these agencies they will act on them, but only if we the backers unite and say enough is enough and hold PB accountable.
I'm waiting first to see what your Legal TsunamiTM reveals in discovery before I consider taking any steps of my own. I'm still firmly in the sarcastic apathy camp personally and can wait until you unleath your pent up fury in 6 weeks.
I figure steel molds are off the table and they are looking at some recast type technology: low up-front tool cost and slow as molasses production. Change parting lines to suit, 3d print a couple poses and Bob's your uncle. Get a few fan volunteers to work the salt mines and they are harmony golden. Stretch out for a few months of pounding out figures at their own pace and all legal commitments met.
It is what I would do if I was operating to my shoestring budget, not sure what vacations or cars they spent the big bucks on... hehe.
Warboss, I wouldn't put too much on my legal efforts since they will only benefit me, no one else, and anyone else trying to get a refund that way will also have to take the court then there is the possibility they will try to attach a gag order to any settlement too.
any suit I bring up against them will not destroy them, just cost them more then if they refunded me. as to motions of discovery on their records not sure I'll even be able to share those even.
Asterios wrote: Warboss, I wouldn't put too much on my legal efforts since they will only benefit me, no one else, and anyone else trying to get a refund that way will also have to take the court then there is the possibility they will try to attach a gag order to any settlement too.
A gag order prevents you from disclosing information AFTER you agree to it. Unless they have a Delorean, they can't go back in time and take the pee out of the pool after the fact. If you find anything interesting that backers should have known about in the first place years ago during your discovery, I trust your civic minded nature will lead you to share it with your fellow backers immediately. If they offer you a settlement afterward you disclose that embarassing information, that's a different story and you need to look out for yourself first and foremost. But since palladium believes they have such an airtight rock solid stone fortress of a defense against those dastardly backers who are ungrateful at having to wait almost 3 years at the current estimate, I'm 98% sure of them not offering to settle right away. I've been saying for months that I'm anxious to see what your legal onslaught reveals behind the curtain at palladium. If anyone decides to act on your newly discovered information, you'll have long settled before they get their ball rolling assuming palladium is ever amenable to that. I mean it took you over a year of prep and threats to be at the point where you finally are right now only weeks away from filing your case.
Saturdays alternate between smelling fishy and smelling like male cow manure... it's par for the course when the Palladium weekly "update" is plopped on everyone's virtual front porch the night before.
Asterios wrote: Warboss, I wouldn't put too much on my legal efforts since they will only benefit me, no one else, and anyone else trying to get a refund that way will also have to take the court then there is the possibility they will try to attach a gag order to any settlement too.
A gag order prevents you from disclosing information AFTER you agree to it. Unless they have a Delorean, they can't go back in time and take the pee out of the pool after the fact. If you find anything interesting that backers should have known about in the first place years ago during your discovery, I trust your civic minded nature will lead you to share it with your fellow backers immediately. If they offer you a settlement afterward you disclose that embarassing information, that's a different story and you need to look out for yourself first and foremost. But since palladium believes they have such an airtight rock solid stone fortress of a defense against those dastardly backers who are ungrateful at having to wait almost 3 years at the current estimate, I'm 98% sure of them not offering to settle right away. I've been saying for months that I'm anxious to see what your legal onslaught reveals behind the curtain at palladium. If anyone decides to act on your newly discovered information, you'll have long settled before they get their ball rolling assuming palladium is ever amenable to that. I mean it took you over a year of prep and threats to be at the point where you finally are right now only weeks away from filing your case.
if their lawyer is good enough he can get a gag order on any discovery claiming that ow their business is ran and reveals too much info that could harm them as a company. all i know is my attorney didn't seem positive about me telling all about my case or anything.
like a recent incident with PB they were in court recently and I have no clue about what? only that their name and Kevin's appeared on a docket but no info(my lawyer found this out).
like a recent incident with PB they were in court recently and I have no clue about what? only that their name and Kevin's appeared on a docket but no info(my lawyer found this out).
Let us know if you find anything. Maybe it is against an employee they let go (crisis of treachery II) or a former partner/collaborator that they think screwed up.
Frankly at this point if Rick dropped off the face of the Earth I'd assume either died or got paid out (or got paid out and the shock of it killed him).
Sometimes it's not about what you say, but what isn't being said.
I think after a month or two of missing "I'm going to suuuuuue PB!" commentary someone would notice that something was up.
Also, this is an odd change of tone. Not all that long ago it was about money back and legal fees and punitive damages and how you wanted to put PB in the fething ground!
And now suddenly it's "oh it won't be that big a deal"?
Forar wrote: Whelp, there's another release of the Weekly Megaversal Propaganda.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Things are moving on Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two (we actually had two conference calls yesterday to discuss it), but for a variety of business reasons we can not yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering. For one, if some of the things we are considering don’t pan out, we don’t want you to be disappointed. And it seems like every little while, things we were considering doing, get changed for one reason or another.
I can tell you, we want to make sure the rest of the Kickstarter items and future Robotech® RPG Tactics™ items are something special and the best product it can be, especially after the long delays in getting Wave Two into your hands. Please know that we are exploring many different possibilities, and until we nail down the final details, we just cannot talk about what were looking into. But we are exploring many things we know you will enjoy. This includes a number of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out. Stay frosty. You are far from forgotten.
Spoiler:
To break it down;
"Things are moving" - [Citation Needed]
"we are totally progressing but can't say or show any evidence to that end, please just give us the benefit of the doubt that we so very much don't deserve"
"omg plans change" - Cool story, bro. Forget your lofty plans. Nobody cares about the bullgak that Wayne and Alex are totally slobbering over (the harshest criticism yet!). Figures. You owe them. Make that gak happen.
"We totes want to deliver, but it has to be the bestest best bettererer than best evar!" - For feths sake, no. Pointing out that people have been waiting does not, in fact, make it heartening to hear that there's more delays. 7 months lined up and let's be real, Black Friday/end of year 2016 are vastly more likely. So that blunting of bad news is... just hiding more bad news.
"We're exploring! Explorers!" - No. You're not. They're fething minis, you're not discovering a new element. Either you have new sprue breakdowns to show, or you don't. Either there's prototypes being printed off and assembled for test fits, or there aren't. Either dozens of molds are being produced, or they're not. Time to gak or get off the pot.
Oh well, in a matter of weeks we've gone from "Q2 2016" to "Q2 2016 would be ideal!" to "when the game relaunches next year (2016)"!
Really giving up ground on that one. In 2 weeks they've tacked on two more quarters. I, for one, am feeling reassured as to their ongoing commitment to making progress and keeping us informed!
What.The.Frak.
I've read/heard some absolute double-talk in my day, but I mean really - did KS & PB go and hire/consult some out of work if not barred from Washington political type to advise them on improving their spin and glad-handing?!
And yeah, sad thing is though how there are ''so totally'' folks out in the wilds of the worldwide web who'll lap it up as yet another example of absolute gospel showing forthright intentions on the part of Palladium.
Forar wrote: Frankly at this point if Rick dropped off the face of the Earth I'd assume either died or got paid out (or got paid out and the shock of it killed him).
Sometimes it's not about what you say, but what isn't being said.
I think after a month or two of missing "I'm going to suuuuuue PB!" commentary someone would notice that something was up.
Also, this is an odd change of tone. Not all that long ago it was about money back and legal fees and punitive damages and how you wanted to put PB in the fething ground!
And now suddenly it's "oh it won't be that big a deal"?
... fishy indeed.
Oh I still want to put PB into the ground and want to destroy them, but with the apathy being shown by backers it will most likely not happen, the other kickstarters that got taken down had that happen because those backers would not go quietly into that good night, they said feth it and filed with those agencies.
well we'll see but don't hold your breath, me thinks PB will settle before it gets there, if they don't refund before I get a chance to file, since if the motion of discovery shows what I think it will show, it could put PB in the realm of fraud.
This is the kind of discussion I pledged for in the Defiance Games kickstarter. I'm glad RRPGT is actually delivering*. Can Kevin top Tony Reidy's "spent it all on strippers" excess? I can't wait to find out.
*Wave 2 would be even better, of course, but that hope is a liar.
By the way we the backers would like clarification concerning stuff Kevin has stated in his sites weekly update and on official government responses where he states that PB is still working on the designs of the minis and such.
the issue is the contract thru Kickstarter we signed stated that Ninja Division would be designing the miniatures and yet Ninja Divisions contract with PB ended awhile back and they will not be continuing their contract with PB.
so either PB is lying to us backers about them still working on the designs, or they have broke their contract with us backers by altering the terms agreed upon when we signed up for this project.
Days since the last update: 47
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **136**
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 267
Days since the campaign ended: 917.
Days until the end of Q2 2016: 221 (current "ideal")
Days until Gencon 2016: 254
Days until the end of 2016: 405
Hard to tell, it's Schrodinger's litigation; both imminent and yet vaguely waiting on things because reasons.
Though as I believe I've pointed out, surely it won't take more than a few months to get that rolling, so we can probably roll that in with the Q2 'target', in that surely Rick won't go Full Palladium on us.
Dunno, it looks like the viable means of payback with PB is leaving a bag of burning poop on their doorstep (I would make sure sand bags are around it so it is not construed as attempted arson if it had to happen).
I am running out of "reasonable" legal options other than to use the occasional harsh words in public forums to cause Kevin to stir and write a wall of text.
Since he is so sensitive and cares "soooo much!" I am sure it causes him great pain and extends his 25 hour work days.
I suppose I should wander over to the KS page and see what whole lot of nothing awaits.
). You seem to be defending an issue that noone is attacking. If I'm wrong, feel free to point it out.
No idea about the actual numbers. I will say that I stopped guessing about the silent majority with the (completely unnecessarily) sham gencon vote that was a (shocking for me) landslide in Palladium's favor. I really didn't expect so many people to allow Palladium to shaft them when they had such a long history of being douchy and incompetent. In reality, we don't really speak as the vocal minority for anyone but ourselves. Hell, after a year of delays, even the gencon vote 
