As I've often mentioned, without knowing the break points where economy of scale savings might have been, and without knowing where what funds were allocated, it's impossible to say what was and wasn't efficient. As a (not apples to apples) example, a friend of mine got calendars printed off for her business. The difference between getting 300 and getting 1000 was like $3.
I entirely recognize it's possible they over committed on wave 1 retail stock, but that doesn't implicitly mean they blew a ton of cash doing it (or necessarily that it was KS funds spent, but with the fungible nature of cash, that's more of an academic point).
Again, I certainly don't know how that all shook out, and I think we can agree I'm not one to give benefit of the doubt here, simply pointing out it's not flat out something I'm getting riled up over at the moment.
The box size is a funny thing. In skimming some of the older updates, I found a hilarious exchange where people were concerned the box would be too small for all the contents. There was also conjecture that the idea was to have boxes big enough for both the core contents and the battle cry extras bag, though that always struck me as a strange idea, given that it'd mean tweaking however many thousand retail boxes to be too big based on shipping out the KS backer stuff.
That all said, at this point it wouldn't shock me if there was a Black Friday sale in the half off range, something hefty to convert as many of those left over core boxes to cash, even at a slim profit margin in the wholesale'ish range.
If cash is truly a consideration, and wave 2 delays are hurting general sales (it's not super common, but waiting for X particular figure to become available has been mentioned by a number of people), then having "$200,000 in cores" at their MSRP price doesn't mean anything if they're only selling a few per week or month. Until they find a factory that will take payment in boxes, if they need cash, then that stuff needs to convert back into a liquid asset.
While I agree with the rest, Mike, I disagree about the retail part. IF they bought extra retail boxes with kickstarter funds instead of using their own cash reserves, that was the wrong move and absolutely NOT what those funds were supposed to be used for. Until RickFury unleashed his legal tsunami, we won't know if that is what they actually did. Judging from previous Palladium poorly planned but well meaning (for them) moves like advertising for gencon and wave 1, they likely did it with the unrealistic expectation that they'd quickly recoup those funds and more through retail from the ravenous fans they'd been gaking on for the year prior and the year since. It doesn't seem to have turned out that way and now they're just treading water at best (no progress to show for 8 months? wtf?) or just drifting further out to sea (because of steadily INCREASING costs in china).
Well yeah, the smart thing to do would be to have that giant wad of KS money tucked in its own account and only drawn from *strictly* for KS related expenses (advertising, molds, materials, paying for renders/artwork, etc).
... so of course I'll assume that wasn't the case here.
But even if it was, the writing does seem to be on the wall that *something* is up.
It does not take 3.5 fething months to get a status update on 3 dozen'ish items. If this info isn't common knowledge or easily accessible, their failure goes so deep it hit the bottom of the proverbial barrel and then found a shovel to keep going.
If that is the case than when (not if) they are forced by an Attorney to refund backers they and Kevin personally are in deep, deep trouble. That decision would almost certainly be ruled as deliberately reckless, leading to piercing the corporate veil as far as liability is concerned.
The benefit that PB should have been seeing from the KS is that they should have factored in the costs of the moulds into what was produced FOR the KS. AFTER the KS, any sets they sold would have been more expensive retail than the KS rewards, but there would have been no money taken out for the mould costs - increasing PB's profit as at that time the moulds could have been considered 'free' as they had been paid for during the KS
IF this had been planned from the start - correctly constructed for a tabletop game, not miniature models paralleling the designs of much larger kits, expenses worked out, boxes of the correct size for what went in them - then PB could have considered future sales of RRT as 'gravy'.
Unfortunately the colour may be the same, but the wiff is decidedly malodourous.
Forar wrote: Well yeah, the smart thing to do would be to have that giant wad of KS money tucked in its own account and only drawn from *strictly* for KS related expenses (advertising, molds, materials, paying for renders/artwork, etc).
... so of course I'll assume that wasn't the case here.
But even if it was, the writing does seem to be on the wall that *something* is up.
It does not take 3.5 fething months to get a status update on 3 dozen'ish items. If this info isn't common knowledge or easily accessible, their failure goes so deep it hit the bottom of the proverbial barrel and then found a shovel to keep going.
I wonder what interest rate they got for this great wad of cash? And how long could palladium last on such interest income?
Oh my, I hadn't thought of this before: what kind of taxes do you pay on Kickstarter cash?
I'm pretty sure you have to declare it as income. People have commented on some issues with timing lining up with taxes in other projects I've participated in (receiving it but not spending it as business expenses for breaks or something?), but the government definitely wants to know/take their cut.
Unless they got an absolute sweetheart deal, I can't imagine the interest is anything to write home about, especially after converting so much of it into wave 1.
Even half a mil only goes so far month to month. (this naively assumes they even still have over 1/3 of the funding/PM cash).
If they're short and need to fluff up the rest through sales or a standard loan, the longer it takes the rougher it'll be. Unless their interest is matching or exceeding inflation and heightened costs for shipping/production (or they find a way to eke out a cut from them), they're just going to fall further and further behind.
Shipping is more expensive now than it was in 2014 than it was in 2013.
2016/2017 probably won't be any better, for example.
I'm not a trained business/finance guy, but I can't imagine just sitting on the money (whatever may be left) is beneficial, especially compared to whatever sales they presumably hoped to make, and would; whatever 'hating' we may do, clearly it's not seeing literally zero sales; weak perhaps, flagging, lower than expected maybe, but there are people buying stuff now and then (yes yes yes, I know, a single core has been sitting in local store X for a year, I'm talking about overall, including their sales and CSI and whatnot).
Under the assumption that 'OMG GRAAAAAB BAAAAAG!' time is probably their biggest influx of cash of the year, converting a pile of random stuff into cash again (especially old stock that isn't selling directly), if they don't jump on things in the next few months, I'm guessing the long haul will really begin to drag.
Heh. Q1 as the target for delivery, allegedly, but let's be real, we'll be lucky if they manage to get production rolling by then (Chinese New Year included).
But don't worry guys! There are 284 days until Gencon 2016, where The Hype and The Buzz are found! There's no way they'd miss THAT!? :-P
They did wave one in way less, surely 9.5 months is enough time to trim a few pieces and get production going! >.>
First, remember that they've got a limited first come first served amount of grab bag robotech starters so you have to act fast. Don't wait till they're gone! Or the end of the grab bag season! Or when they inevitably extend it later! If you order in the next 15 minutes, Kevin will personally spit in your general direction and curse your name you ungrateful sod! This authentic backer experience is provided FREE if you act fast! This of course limits palladium's profits for the limited time only grab bag but they're willing to do that to keep the valued backer experience special... Until they offer it again in 6 months at least...
I mean, the obvious subtext to them only having 'a few RRT core boxes available' is, in my eyes, 'limited to the number we have in the warehouse'.
If some madman wants to pay $42 + a giant load of shipping for a core box, I can't imagine they'll balk. Better $42 and more free space than $0 and boxes sitting in the warehouse not going anywhere.
While this is pretty much always true, I think there may be a time sensitive factor here; the demand doesn't exactly seem to be growing, so a dozen pallets of cores now is probably going to be worth less next year, or the year after.
I wonder if they could even sell old stock if the license got pulled? Which is to say that they might have a double-vested interest in selling these off; recoup funds in any way they can, AND try to provide some evidence that there's demand for their products at all.
But yeah, 'get them before the sale ends' is hilarious. Don't play coy with us, that gak will get at least a couple of weeks added, and with the Christmas In July aspect, it's like a Steam Sale; oh noes, I missed out, whatever will I... oh it's for sale again. Never mind.
Worse, if us law is similar to uk, it would make the shareholders of the firm personally liable.
If I were in a position of authority at PB I would be gaking a brick right now.
Joyboozer wrote: Nowhere in the campaign did it mention funding the creation of the game AND allowing them to produce a surplus for retail.
The whole focus was on individual goal levels, with each step being funded, to produce rewards FOR backers.
Palladium can cry about it all they want, but it's all there word for word with pictures.
I think it is a given that many KS's want to sell retail and make $ at the end of the day and must make extra product to do just that. The problem is not that PB bought extra stuff to sell, that was the right move. The problem was that they did not use or practice any management or oversight of the project once ND handed it over. The extra space alone in the boxes probably cost enough in shipping extra containers that they could have been much closer to actually having molds done and ready on wave 2. The problem is not that they bought extra stuff, it is that nothing was planned, organized, or watched over from day one after the KS ended. Too many poor assumptions were made that led to even poorer actions primarily due what appears to be a careless attitude on something that is apparently more important to fans than the license holders themselves.
I completely agree, was speaking more about the worrying response from Kevin to the guys that reported KS to their AGs, about the retail value of their rewards.
As Forar pointed out in the KS Comments, the latest PBWU is up. And there's actually some Wave 2 news!
You can get the Wave 2 paper standees on DriveThru this weekend, maybe. No mention on if the Wave 2 stat cards will be up, which would kind of miss the point of having Wave 2 standees, but doing something halfassed *IS* the Palladium way. Unless they're only doing the MPA/FPA/SValks.
Cause surprise surprise, the "Only available to backers and at conventions" restriction for Consclusives? Yeah, they've removed that again, for the second time in 30 days (September 25th-28th). You have to request them in a Christmas Grab Bag, and they're in "limited quantities". Yeah, limited by the stock they want to get rid of. Look, I don't like the idea of exclusives (especially if they've got an in-game exclusivity, which thankfully these don't). But if you're going to have them, don't go offering them to the general public for a "limited run" of four days, then have them available for at least an entire month. And let's not kid ourselves, anyone who thinks the Grab Bag deadline isn't going to be extended at least once, hasn't been paying attention.
Aaaaaaand that's it, beyond the usual "Working hard on it" vagueness we've come to know and loathe from Palladium. Of course, it looks like Backers will only know about any of it from word of mouth, because they don't appear to be even trying to follow through on "And we’ll try to do more Kickstarter updates.". Since the start of the year, they've done at least two Updates a month (excluding April). Since they first said "And we’ll try to do more Kickstarter updates.", on August 27th, they've done one on September 5th mentioning the first set of stat cards, and one on October 7th, errata-ing the Blast Rule. And that's it. Keep up the good work, fellas!
I may have pushed myself burning the midnight oil too much, because I’m sick as a dog as I write this (Friday afternoon). Though I’m feeling a bit better than last night and this morning, I can tell I’m foggy and struggling some to put words together, so this Update will be on the short side.
Speaking of items, I forgot to include the Rifts®, Palladium Fantasy® and Dead Reign® mouse pads as being available for request as well as this year’s Robotech® RPG Tactics™ convention exclusives. Please remember, just because you include items on your Wish List doesn’t mean you’ll get them. Items such as the RRT exclusives are limited and only people who request them will even be considered.
* Rifts® Glitter Boy Mouse Pad (full color cover). Actually, all three of the mouse pads – Rifts®, Dead Reign® and Palladium Fantasy® – may be requested in the Grab Gags. Each has a value of $9.95 retail.
* Robotech® RPG Tactics™ 2015 Convention Exclusives – Grell – Breetai – Miriya’s Super Valkyrie in Guardian mode – all are very cool and look great. Only eight pieces or less to put together. These items have limited availability. Only people who request this item will be considered.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
The second batch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ paper game pieces for Macross should be posted this weekend, for free, on DriveThruRPG.com. That’s Wave One and Two figures.
MORE is coming as we continue to work on other areas of support and getting Wave Two into manufacturing.
FREE Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Force Organization Charts, stat cards, rules and special items – coming soon!
Closing thoughts
I feel like there’s more to talk about, but that’s about all I can muster right now. It took me two hours to write this, so I know it’s time to head home and finish fighting off this bug. I’m delighted so many of you are enjoying the Palladium Christmas Surprise Packages. Take care and game on.
Morgan, I hope you're happy. Wave 2 is finally out and, per your request, they made it instead in paper! What remains to be seen is if my suggestion of mash potatoes and gravy minis will also be considered next.
I think the main purpose of "kickstarter exclusives" is to be able to flog them on the KS update page and be conforming to the KS site rules. If they open them up for all later, no harm no foul right?
They are just staying classy as always.
Rick, what does your friend that you've told us so many times will represent you for free in the lawsuit (until Palladium of course reimburses him his fees when they lose) say? What is the ETA of your lawsuit? Is it still by the end of the year like you've threatened for over a year (although you've been backing off of that now that the timeframe is actually coming close)? Or are you rolling the date stealthily back again Kevin Siembieda style and hoping no one will notice? I haven't followed the KS comments since the scale debate so I don't know what your current rhetoric about that is. I really hope something comes of your hundreds of lawsuit threats as that would be a whole lot of wasted time spitting into the wind otherwise.
Rick, what does your friend that you've told us so many times will represent you for free in the lawsuit (until Palladium of course reimburses him his fees when they lose) say? What is the ETA of your lawsuit? Is it still by the end of the year like you've threatened for over a year (although you've been backing off of that now that the timeframe is actually coming close)? Or are you rolling the date stealthily back again Kevin Siembieda style and hoping no one will notice? I haven't followed the KS comments since the scale debate so I don't know what your current rhetoric about that is. I really hope something comes of your hundreds of lawsuit threats as that would be a whole lot of wasted time spitting into the wind otherwise.
actually my date has not changed and it is still the same, you would like to think it has changed but it has not.
Alpharius wrote: So all it would take to stop a lawsuit is $120 and PB won't do it?
They must seriously doubt your ability and/or desire to follow through with your threats.
not really that, but PB knows if they refund me, they will have others threatening the same and they will have to refund them and not sure how long PB could hold out on that or survive.
PB is in a catch 22, they should have refunded a lot earlier while there was still interest in the game.
Sometimes it can be the principal of the thing.
Or someone makes you sufficiently angry.
Or a plain old you want them to stop so others are not taken advantage of as well.
In this case, "getting your money back" is not the prime motivation any more, pointless really.
Alpharius wrote: So all it would take to stop a lawsuit is $120 and PB won't do it?
They must seriously doubt your ability and/or desire to follow through with your threats.
not really that, but PB knows if they refund me, they will have others threatening the same and they will have to refund them and not sure how long PB could hold out on that or survive.
PB is in a catch 22, they should have refunded a lot earlier while there was still interest in the game.
unfortunately, too true. If I caught wind of a refund of $120, I'd be after my $140. After that, it may even get to the dizzy heights of $150.
Although in truth, my $140 wouldn't even hit them that hard. If I got it back, the first thing I'd probably do is sink some of it back in a VT expansion box. [just so I had something to slap those stupid decals on, and to try out a couple of different paint jobs on.]
But I have heard that PB have struck a deal with another company to ensure that wave 2 gets to the backers faster than wave 1 ever did when it was released.
So if, within a couple of weeks of PB saying wave 2 is shipping, you get a package from "gak Express" - my advice is "Don't Open It!"
OK, profanity filter. The first word of that company is a 4-letter word beginning with "S" that means the same as Excrement. Actually "Excrement Express" would have been a better name anyway, but hey, I don't own the company.
Even with Mike working overtime to resuscitate the game I'm still unable to stay interested. Maybe the best thing to do is let Rick try his best to put PB out of business so they don't continue to pollute the game industry with their shoddy products and terrible customer relations. I want wave two as much as everyone else, but I doubt it's going to happen. They seem to be stalling on purpose. I don't know if it's for financial reasons or its to hard to finish or both, but as of now I can't see myself feeling sad if PB went the way of the dodo.
I've given up assisting PB (who does not listen very well if at all anyways) and have moved on to making a way so that I can use my Battletech minis to play as well as the CAV minis that I'm getting from that KS.....
Already tossed out the Squadron formations and stuff and turned the rules into a Skirmish type game where you pick individual units.
Cypher-xv wrote: You guys that wanted the malcontent dice should just get together and have them made already. PB will not come out with ever.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mike I'm glad you've finally seen the light. The last thing PB needs is for you to do their work for them.
It's tiresome when you try to spoon feed a child something they should know they need to take in and they just keep putting on a petulant face and turning their heads. Eventually you decide that they can starve or they will come back asking for more food but they are not getting a thing until they come and ask.
Well I was going to post new pics of my new version Armored Veritech, Cats Eye recon plane, Alpha/Fighter combo, Lancer II, Invids and so on, but then I thought that would be making fun of PB who claims its so hard to reduce part count and so forth and would show them as the liars they are, but then I thought screw it PB is lying to us and there is no wave 2 coming so here ya go:
Mind you these have mostly been done on TinkerCad which is a free generic 3D designer program and not a good program, but hey its free.
Left one is Ver. 3, Right one is Ver. 4
Left one is Ver. 3, Right one is Ver. 4
view my workings and go laugh at PB's transparent lies.
I do wish everybody would stop so harsh on Palladium. I'd like to see how long it would take any of you to get any work completed when you had to turn off all the lights and hide under your desks pretending nobody's there every time a bill collector knocks on the door, telephones or sends an email!
Kevin doesn't lie!
Automatically Appended Next Post: These really are terrible miniatures, I've been trying to assemble some battloids for the last week, glue a few halves and then get depressed, try again the next night.
Why is the detail so soft?
Joyboozer wrote: These really are terrible miniatures, I've been trying to assemble some battloids for the last week, glue a few halves and then get depressed, try again the next night.
Why is the detail so soft?
That's the trouble with "Mouth-watering" minis. Water erosion!
Joyboozer wrote: These really are terrible miniatures, I've been trying to assemble some battloids for the last week, glue a few halves and then get depressed, try again the next night.
Why is the detail so soft?
That's the trouble with "Mouth-watering" minis. Water erosion!
Joyboozer wrote: These really are terrible miniatures, I've been trying to assemble some battloids for the last week, glue a few halves and then get depressed, try again the next night.
Why is the detail so soft?
That's the trouble with "Mouth-watering" minis. Water erosion!
Why not do Wave II as ice sculptures?
SOme melting may occur in shipping.
No, we'd get a lot of empty plastic bags with the promise of making the instructions on how to make ice at a later date. Possibly relying a super fan to make the instructions for them, and still not bother posting them.
Joyboozer wrote: No, we'd get a lot of empty plastic bags with the promise of making the instructions on how to make ice at a later date. Possibly relying a super fan to make the instructions for them, and still not bother posting them.
Based on PB's track record thus far, they'd rely on a literal fan to make ice and then wonder why it isn't working. It does seem as though basic concepts elude them at times. Then they would state the fan wasn't enough of a super-fan, and they feel super sorry that they ever trusted it as an appliance to begin with and they'll keep looking for a way to reduce the temperature because you guys...you guys deserve the best. You won't get it from PB perhaps, but it's what you deserve.
Joyboozer wrote: I do wish everybody would stop so harsh on Palladium. I'd like to see how long it would take any of you to get any work completed when you had to turn off all the lights and hide under your desks pretending nobody's there every time a bill collector knocks on the door, telephones or sends an email! Kevin doesn't lie!
Yeah, leave Kevin alone! Unless every person here has managed to completely screw up a $1 million plus project and piss off thousands of people at the same time by trying to run out the liability clock for a year, you don't have the necessary expertise to comment on what he's going through!
I have no doubt about that, but who would buy it at this point? I don't think even the Fan Friends would take that at face value.
Why is the detail so soft?
That's on Ninja Division's lap. Their lack of experience shines through on every fragile part and soft detail element.
That's not to say I'm unhappy with the models, I actually like them. They could have been better, though.
Well I was going to post new pics of my new version Armored Veritech, Cats Eye recon plane, Alpha/Fighter combo, Lancer II, Invids and so on, but then I thought that would be making fun of PB who claims its so hard to reduce part count and so forth and would show them as the liars they are, but then I thought screw it PB is lying to us and there is no wave 2 coming so here ya go
There is a difference between doing a small run of your own amateur sculpts on 3d printers and creating high volume, professionally produced miniatures.
I'm pretty impressed with what you have done here, but to be honest I wouldn't pay for these.
There is a difference between doing a small run of your own amateur sculpts on 3d printers and creating high volume, professionally produced miniatures.
I'm pretty impressed with what you have done here, but to be honest I wouldn't pay for these.
trust me if i had a better 3D program I could do a better job and probably take the same amount of time to do it for an injection mold machine (I'm used to working with those and their programs, same synopsis just a slightly different design process.
but like i said I'm using TinkerCad and for those who have worked with Tinkercad will say this is pretty damn good stuff, since its just a shapes program.
- Days since the last update: 21 (apparently we're now on a monthly schedule, which would be fine if they actually had anything pertinent to say in them)
- Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **110**
- Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 241
- Days until the end of 2015: 65
- Days until the end of Q1 2016: 156
- Days until Gencon 2016: 280
- Days until the end of 2016: 431
Trimmed some editorial snark, but for those who only swing by to see what's going on once in a while, this is the kind of gak we're dealing with.
This isn't "oh people on Kickstarter are so impatient". It's been 8 fething months since they shared more than vague assertions about delivery, and 110 bloody days since they were supposed to collect info on the state of the figures.
While I agree that Palladium has (externally) put forth a piss poor effort towards completing their OBLIGATIONS per the kickstarter contract over the past year, I don't think it's fair to compare custom made and quickie 3d printed models with plastics. The bigger issue for me (besides their seemingly complete lack of ANY progress since the beginning of the year) is that they're not willing to discuss any sort of completion for this project, whether that involves a partial refund for the remaining rewards or a change in the materials to get backers something before either they or the staff at palladium die of old age.
That isn't a criticism btw of your efforts as you've done a better job than I would have if I had tried to do the same thing. I just don't think that is an apples to apples comparison.
A little napkin math says that it has been 891 days since the campaign concluded.
923 days since the campaign launched.
Given that they claimed to have six months of work put in before they launched the campaign, that means they've (allegedly) got around 1,100 days from the start until now, or roughly 3 years of design, development, production, shipping, and general faffing about to deliver 1/3 of the figures (and have the remaining 2/3 at... some percentage of done or not or maybe being redesigned from scratch by some poor dude in a Chinese factory).
warboss wrote: While I agree that Palladium has (externally) put forth a piss poor effort towards completing their OBLIGATIONS per the kickstarter contract over the past year, I don't think it's fair to compare custom made and quickie 3d printed models with plastics. The bigger issue for me (besides their seemingly complete lack of ANY progress since the beginning of the year) is that they're not willing to discuss any sort of completion for this project, whether that involves a partial refund for the remaining rewards or a change in the materials to get backers something before either they or the staff at palladium die of old age.
That isn't a criticism btw of your efforts as you've done a better job than I would have if I had tried to do the same thing. I just don't think that is an apples to apples comparison.
actually it is more apples to apples comparison, I do not have access to the resources PB did, I did not bring in 1.4 million dollars like PB did, i'm just a lone person on a old computer using a free 3D design program which is mediocre at best.
and yet I'm able to make designs faster then PB can, whats PB's excuse?
Merijeek wrote: PB seems to have lost their final free laborer.
There will be no further progress.
There are usually more (almost) free laborers waiting over at the Palladium forums. They've got dozens of Rifters full of them. As for "further progress", they don't seem to help much anyways as the bottleneck is always the same.
Well, I can go back to the low-tech method.
I would typically modify an existing model and then make a mold for it and pound out the copies.
If you wish to say "pictures or it never happened" I recently saw the box of them kicking around so I could prove something.
(For an idea of how long ago, made my own Thousand Son CSM bits before they existed)
Spoiler:
Typically I used low melt metal as the pour material.
In this case some resin would be in order.
The link here is very similar how I did mine: http://www.starshipmodeler.com/basics/jc_molds.htm.
Smooth-on has pretty much anything you would want.
Do not underestimate the extreme utility of lego mold design.
I usually went a step further and cast a plaster box around the rubber mold to ensure it was stable (kept it cool to handle when dealing with molten metal).
The molds do not degrade (much), how well you set up pins and joins for alignment, the gating and sprue paths to the part will determine the quality of the mold.
It seemed to be too much like work at first making them but became awesome when you pounded out some 30-odd figures.
Problem is: am I a true fan and willing to styrene up a VT for the "super" and then the armored?
I do not enjoy the thought of making Zent. vehicles from scratch, maybe a printed "donation" could get that going.
If by some miracle I get motivated enough to make molds, I would agree to destroy them if PB is likewise motivated to produce wave 2.
Heh, if you include today, it has been 666 days since the original December 2013 release target (going from the end of the month, which I think is a generous take on the matter).
Fitting for the near-halloween period of the year.
Extrapolating the "Maybe Oct/Nov" part isn't hard, but I refuse to dignify those with even the cursory subtraction necessary.
Forar wrote: Heh, if you include today, it has been 666 days since the original December 2013 release target (going from the end of the month, which I think is a generous take on the matter).
Fitting for the near-halloween period of the year.
Extrapolating the "Maybe Oct/Nov" part isn't hard, but I refuse to dignify those with even the cursory subtraction necessary.
Since the projects is so upside down when will we reach 999?
Joyboozer wrote: I do wish everybody would stop so harsh on Palladium. I'd like to see how long it would take any of you to get any work completed when you had to turn off all the lights and hide under your desks pretending nobody's there every time a bill collector knocks on the door, telephones or sends an email!
Kevin doesn't lie!
Yeah, leave Kevin alone! Unless every person here has managed to completely screw up a $1 million plus project and piss off thousands of people at the same time by trying to run out the liability clock for a year, you don't have the necessary expertise to comment on what he's going through!
I'm sorry, but that needs the appropriate GIF:
Because you just know his hard-hitting truth-telling team is holding him accountable and Wave 2 will be his best work ever.
Forar wrote: Heh, if you include today, it has been 666 days since the original December 2013 release target (going from the end of the month, which I think is a generous take on the matter).
Fitting for the near-halloween period of the year.
Extrapolating the "Maybe Oct/Nov" part isn't hard, but I refuse to dignify those with even the cursory subtraction necessary.
Since the projects is so upside down when will we reach 999?
333 days from today. Which would be September 24, 2016.
Anyone want to pretend we'll actually see Wave Two by then?
On the slim to none chance theyll actually complete this project, that's right after gencon where they'll be forced to sell it to new customers first before backers... You know.... For our own good. Remember, it hurts them more than it does us to try and screw us over. Ironically, there is a grain of truth in that long term if you think about it. The money they COULD have made from me but won't as a lowly battlecry backer in macross as well as the other eras easily dwarfs the money I'm losing by them not fulfilling wave 2.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
From my YouTube feed. The next palladium related kickstarter. If robotech had gone as planned, I'd have backed this in a minute. As it stands right now I don't feel like supporting anything that feeds back to palladium until I get what was promised 666 days ago.
And these amatuerish kit bashes were done with a DIY casting kit over a month spending an hour or 2 a week. Replace me with someone with the proper skill set and equipment and imagine what could be done.
I'm currently debating whether I want to give PB more money to get a Miriya Super Valk. It'd be easy enough to cast up the parts to convert the current valk kits to Supers. I've got some spare Valk sprues so I'd probably just cast up copies of the legs, torsos and wings. I've got enough spare heads and arms. I've also got an idea of how I'd do the armored valk using parts from the Spartan, Tomahawk and Phalanx destroids. Just need to figure out how to do the armored arms and midsection. I've even considered converting up my own VF-1Ds and VE-1s. BTW, does anyone know how well the top of a Tau shield drone would work as a radome for the VE-1?
Talizvar wrote: Well, I can go back to the low-tech method.
I would typically modify an existing model and then make a mold for it and pound out the copies.
If you wish to say "pictures or it never happened" I recently saw the box of them kicking around so I could prove something.
(For an idea of how long ago, made my own Thousand Son CSM bits before they existed)
Spoiler:
Typically I used low melt metal as the pour material.
In this case some resin would be in order.
The link here is very similar how I did mine: http://www.starshipmodeler.com/basics/jc_molds.htm.
Smooth-on has pretty much anything you would want.
Do not underestimate the extreme utility of lego mold design.
I usually went a step further and cast a plaster box around the rubber mold to ensure it was stable (kept it cool to handle when dealing with molten metal).
The molds do not degrade (much), how well you set up pins and joins for alignment, the gating and sprue paths to the part will determine the quality of the mold.
It seemed to be too much like work at first making them but became awesome when you pounded out some 30-odd figures.
Problem is: am I a true fan and willing to styrene up a VT for the "super" and then the armored?
I do not enjoy the thought of making Zent. vehicles from scratch, maybe a printed "donation" could get that going.
If by some miracle I get motivated enough to make molds, I would agree to destroy them if PB is likewise motivated to produce wave 2.
cannonfodr wrote: I'm currently debating whether I want to give PB more money to get a Miriya Super Valk. It'd be easy enough to cast up the parts to convert the current valk kits to Supers. I've got some spare Valk sprues so I'd probably just cast up copies of the legs, torsos and wings. I've got enough spare heads and arms. I've also got an idea of how I'd do the armored valk using parts from the Spartan, Tomahawk and Phalanx destroids. Just need to figure out how to do the armored arms and midsection. I've even considered converting up my own VF-1Ds and VE-1s. BTW, does anyone know how well the top of a Tau shield drone would work as a radome for the VE-1?
I'm actually working on a super Valk booster and leg pack, got the boosters done and such still need to do the leg armor though for it though, but not easy doing the right size and such to fit these valks
And these amatuerish kit bashes were done with a DIY casting kit over a month spending an hour or 2 a week. Replace me with someone with the proper skill set and equipment and imagine what could be done.
I imagine something like these?
Spoiler:
People are out there with the skill and ability but they tend not to want to deal with Palladium's BS.
And these amatuerish kit bashes were done with a DIY casting kit over a month spending an hour or 2 a week. Replace me with someone with the proper skill set and equipment and imagine what could be done.
I imagine something like these?
Spoiler:
People are out there with the skill and ability but they tend not to want to deal with Palladium's BS.
True. I get the feeling that the only one they'd be able to get to work for them is Tony Reidy if they could actually find what rock he's hiding under.
Man would that be a nightmare if they announced that.
paulson games wrote: People are out there with the skill and ability but they tend not to want to deal with Palladium's BS.
And these amatuerish kit bashes were done with a DIY casting kit over a month spending an hour or 2 a week. Replace me with someone with the proper skill set and equipment and imagine what could be done.
I imagine something like these?
Spoiler:
People are out there with the skill and ability but they tend not to want to deal with Palladium's BS.
Those look nice. Clearly, they have to be, like, a hundred pieces each.
Joyboozer wrote: No, we'd get a lot of empty plastic bags with the promise of making the instructions on how to make ice at a later date. Possibly relying a super fan to make the instructions for them, and still not bother posting them.
Based on PB's track record thus far, they'd rely on a literal fan to make ice and then wonder why it isn't working. It does seem as though basic concepts elude them at times. Then they would state the fan wasn't enough of a super-fan, and they feel super sorry that they ever trusted it as an appliance to begin with and they'll keep looking for a way to reduce the temperature because you guys...you guys deserve the best. You won't get it from PB perhaps, but it's what you deserve.
They wouldn't even get that far. The Chinese have told them it is impossible to combine hydrogen and oxygen to create the water, let alone sculpt it in ice (with a chainsaw, of course).
Yes those are some of the ones that got this whole ball rolling. It pains me to see that it's turned into such a turdball since then, but I don't have any hand in that as my dealings with PB were ended well before they even approached ND.
Merijeek wrote: Those look nice. Clearly, they have to be, like, a hundred pieces each.
Lol, Part count on the Tomahawk is 8 peices. 2 legs, hip, torso, 2 arms, missile launcher and search light. It has as much poseability as the RRT version it could be further reduced down to about 4-5 pieces if given a single pose. Most of the RDF mechs could be done in metal with 4-8 pieces with fixed pose models. (10-12 pieces for more poseable stuff)
The Zentraedi pod has more parts but mainly because of the lasers. Without the lasers it'd be 6 pieces, and 10-12 parts depending how the lasers are and if you allow for mobility between the hips and torso.
(I think the Zentraedi stuff is by far the best out of the available RRT models, the sculpting to me looks like it was done by a different artist than the RDF stuff)
JohnHwangDD wrote: Those are *very* nice. What material? Resin? 3-D print?
Also, how big?
They are about 3 mm taller than the RRT models, so pretty much the same scale.
The original prints were done in 2010 on an Objet printer which had a quality equal to shapeways white detail (and cost about $50), which is absolutely horrible print quality nowdays but it was alright at the time considering what else was available. If I had reprinted them now they'd be much, much better. The original print required a lot of clean up work by hand, a modern print would need almost none. The one pictured is a resin cast of the print. I was advising metal for production as it would have captured the detail just fine.
Given my background with both resin and metal minis I know that there's a proven and well understood production process for metal models and it could have been made in the US (to eliminate overseas difficulties). The price for core units would be higher because the plastics reduced core units to under $2 on the KSIIRC where metal ones would have needed to be in the $6-8 range for a KS and about $12-$14 at retail. I make metal models that are comparable in size to RRT (or slightly larger) and that pricing is based on the ones I produce, the RRT pieces could be produced with a smaller part count than what I do which would keep their costs less than what I currently do. I also deal with a much smaller production size and many companies are willing to offer a lower rate when the order is done in bulk.
It's certainly not a perfect solution, but it's significantly less expensive than the start up costs needed for plastics. The "Loss of Detail" phrase that's tossed about by PB and their fans is a bit of a scapegoat/boogeyman from people who have no clue about making minis, metals work just fine for detailed minis, take a gander at the Infinity line for proof of well done metals and those are roughly half the size of RRT stuff. I ran tests with a selection of my models, some in resin and some in metal, took photos of them with primer applied and very few few people could correctly pick out which ones were which. As long as the caster is good there's really not a significant visual difference in quality between resin and metal. (the handling and material properties vary a lot though)
JohnHwangDD wrote: Thanks very much for the details, it's greatly appreciated.
It's pretty amazing how the 3D print technology has progressed.
It's like computers, they progress at an amazing rate. What was a top of the line PC 5 years ago is pretty dated by now. Printers are the same way, I just ordered a printer that is capable of working at 30 microns, where 5 years ago an objet machine was printing at 75 microns. The desktop printer runs under $5k and is considerably better where the objet ran around $60k+ at the time.
A current generation Objet printer can get down to 16 microns which is insanely good but runs well over $200k, so it's not an option for me.
The speed at which these are evolving is pretty staggering and we're going to see printing technology get even better within the next few years and it's already having a huge impact on the miniatures field, I'm quite interested to see where it goes from here.
Yes, we'll all have affordable high quality 3D printers and be doing our own stuff, meanwhile Palladium will stil be struggling to put up the paper minis files.
Paulson, do the high end 3D printers suffer any of the same issues as the older models in regards to drooping etc, or are they more forgiving of poorly thought out designs?
I'm not up on all the technical details of the various high end printers, I've typically let the guys I outsourced to handle those details and just say here's my model, print the best you can. I do know that several of the newer machines are using a process now that layers and cures resin while the model is submerged. Depending on how the model is built it helps eliminate some, if not all of the need for support structure.
The tension from support materials often is what causes a model to bend. It prints straight but once you remove the supports it starts to bend slightly because there's a bit of natural spring to the print. It can also be minimized by how the model is positioned and how much cure time they allow etc, which comes down to the skill and experience of the person doing the printing.
While I've been doing the 3d modelling for a while I'm still just starting to dip my toes with directly printing my own models. I like being able to directly take them through every step of the process, but that isn't really isn't needed provide you have people working for you with the correct skill set.
- Days since the last update: 21 (apparently we're now on a monthly schedule, which would be fine if they actually had anything pertinent to say in them)
- Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **110** - Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 241
- Days until the end of 2015: 65
- Days until the end of Q1 2016: 156
- Days until Gencon 2016: 280
- Days until the end of 2016: 431
Trimmed some editorial snark, but for those who only swing by to see what's going on once in a while, this is the kind of gak we're dealing with.
This isn't "oh people on Kickstarter are so impatient". It's been 8 fething months since they shared more than vague assertions about delivery, and 110 bloody days since they were supposed to collect info on the state of the figures.
That's a pretty damning AND embarrassing list there for PB - hard to imagine that they could spin that in any positive way whatsoever.
OK, My Bandai SDF-1 could be here as early as a week on Friday from Japan, and by next Monday I could have a Vexar from the Revell Robotech range. Don't know if I can get the Revell Space Fortress SDF-1 for £33 before it sells but I hope so. It would go well with the one I have in the other mode.
So with that, my interest in the PB effort has officially dropped to Zero.
PB's efforts over the last year or so have rapidly dropped to below zero utility. [Yes, they are worse than useless. Their lack of verifiable progress and lack of meaningful communication have damaged not only their reputation, but also that of their partners and their IP. I am just glad that in fact Macross is not their IP and I can get my fix elsewhere - as I will not give PB another cent!]
Given the head start that Paulson should have been able to get them, and the efforts of others which have been showcased in this very thread recently, PB ought to be ashamed of themselves for their lack of verifiable progress. [Pics, or it didn't happen, guys!] I would back most of the efforts shown here even if I would specifically request no reward just to support the sort of people that can get what they need done in a timeframe that puts PB's woeful efforts to shame.
PB, you have taken a dream, broken it into an unnecessarily high number of bits, drooled over it, and taken over a year longer than originally planned [a Martian year, that is (687 Earth days long)] and it is still possible that they will complete this within a year of starting the campaign [Jupiter year, that is.(4332 Earth days long] but still, some of the people on here seem to have been able to do in mere Earth months what PB cannot do in a Martian year!
To be fair Macross is way cooler than Robotech. Have you seen Macross Frontier yet? I'd sell an organ for 1/300 scale models of the Macross Quarter. I think the trick would be to get the entity in control of the Macross property to create a miniature wargame.
That's a pretty damning AND embarrassing list there for PB - hard to imagine that they could spin that in any positive way whatsoever.
Oh come on, you can make anyone look bad with a carefully cherrypicked list!
Had no job.
Looked like a hippy.
Had twelve other hippies following him around all the time.
Preachy
I swear, that Jesus guy sucked!
And that is a brave guy, right there.
Comparing KS to the Son of God. Not going to go well for KS, that.
Jesus only had 12 'Fan-friends', looked like a hippy, and had no job.
Still had more positive effect on the world in a year than KS ever could in a lifetime and is still though of well over 2 millennia later. Mind you, that might be the timeframe we are looking at for wave 2, so there may be parallels.
Conrad Turner wrote: PB's efforts over the last year or so have rapidly dropped to below zero utility. [Yes, they are worse than useless. Their lack of verifiable progress and lack of meaningful communication have damaged not only their reputation, but also that of their partners and their IP. I am just glad that in fact Macross is not their IP and I can get my fix elsewhere - as I will not give PB another cent!]
They appear to ensure they get the better end of any deal.
I feel it is time I will never get back reading their "updates" so I have to thank mightily those who summarize them.
Well, will continue at least spending the energy warning people off the company, not so much the starter box if they are rabid model builders.
That's a pretty damning AND embarrassing list there for PB - hard to imagine that they could spin that in any positive way whatsoever.
Oh come on, you can make anyone look bad with a carefully cherrypicked list!
Had no job.
Looked like a hippy.
Had twelve other hippies following him around all the time.
Preachy
I swear, that Jesus guy sucked!
And that is a brave guy, right there.
Comparing KS to the Son of God. Not going to go well for KS, that.
Cut him some slack. If he's been posting on the Palladium forums, it's sometimes hard to tell the two inspiring messianic figures apart with the cult of personality that defies all reason/broken promises/facts there.
In hindsight, I really wish I had just bought straight-up Macross & Mac Plus kits instead of funneling cash into RTT. The only silver lining is that I didn't spend as much as most others did.
Don't be ridiculous. The thread would be lock and warnings issued for trolling for simply suggesting that someone might be better than the the Dear Leader, Eternal President, and Great General Kevin.
Well, out of sheer boredom at work, I typed up a letter and submitted it to their KS email, asking where the info was about the figures/resin bits that we were told was in the works, for more Work In Progress stuff, etc.
Not that I expect anything to come of it, but I suppose I finally tired of saying the same stuff on the same venues, so I decided (with Morgan's assistance, shout-out to Morgan!) to try saying the same things in a new venue.
Oh well. At this rate maybe I'll get around to saying it all to their faces at Gencon, seeing as I don't have high hopes of them delivering before the next one I currently plan to attend.
That's a pretty damning AND embarrassing list there for PB - hard to imagine that they could spin that in any positive way whatsoever.
Oh come on, you can make anyone look bad with a carefully cherrypicked list!
Had no job.
Looked like a hippy.
Had twelve other hippies following him around all the time.
Preachy
I swear, that Jesus guy sucked!
Sadly, if you created a not cherry picked list it would include 2+ years of preordered books, books that are 3+ years behind in production, books in the current lineup out of print for months on end, and the only product coming out of Palladium Books is Mouse pads, dice bags, and jackets. As a book company, they fail; as a game company, they fail. At least they can produce peripheral gaming crap that is available from......everywhere, and everyone. I get my dice bags from Crown Royal, my mouse doesn't need a mousepad and I'm surprised people are still making them, and any apparel for a game I can get at Walmart for far cheaper than PB can make it and it looks better.
Could someone who is a Mekton Zero backer (I assume there is some overlap here with Robotech for the fandom) pm me a cut and paste of the last update? It's backer only and I can't see it.
1). Has there been any indication that wave 2 is ever going to happen, or failing that that PB will allow us to cash out our remIning pledge value with existing stock?
2). What kind of plastic 1/144ish Macross or Mospaeda (or similar) models are out there?
What do you mean nope? Every PB newsletter Kevin says they are working on wave 2, and we've been assured by the super fans that Kevin doesn't lie, so it would be impossible that he cuts and pastes an untruth every single week.
I mean, seriously, how would that affect the super fans if it turned that not only did Kevin lie, but that he lies quite often?
Impossible.
warboss wrote: Could someone who is a Mekton Zero backer (I assume there is some overlap here with Robotech for the fandom) pm me a cut and paste of the last update? It's backer only and I can't see it.
Well true to my word I'm holding off on filing with any AG before the end of the year. I, unlike Palladium, am going to stick to my word and not take action earlier than I stated in my formal letter to them.
What worries me is that Kevin may try and lump me in as part of a group of co-ordinated people who are seeking action. Somone else who filed was basically hand waved off because Prince K. said he was a rabble rouser and bad guy.
Filing? Does that mean that someone is starting a lawsuit! If so that's great news. Run Palladium into the ground for their theft from backers. If I can't get my minis or money back, I'd rather see my money go to one brave backer than to help upgrade Kevin's living comforts.
darkminstrel wrote: Well true to my word I'm holding off on filing with any AG before the end of the year. I, unlike Palladium, am going to stick to my word and not take action earlier than I stated in my formal letter to them.
What worries me is that Kevin may try and lump me in as part of a group of co-ordinated people who are seeking action. Somone else who filed was basically hand waved off because Prince K. said he was a rabble rouser and bad guy.
yeah evidently Kevin has named me as the ring leader even though I was not the first to file with the AG, nor have I really urged others to do so. furthermoreI have only been saying what i'm doing, but according to Kevin i'm the leader, the mastermind and so forth.
darkminstrel wrote: Well true to my word I'm holding off on filing with any AG before the end of the year. I, unlike Palladium, am going to stick to my word and not take action earlier than I stated in my formal letter to them.
What worries me is that Kevin may try and lump me in as part of a group of co-ordinated people who are seeking action. Somone else who filed was basically hand waved off because Prince K. said he was a rabble rouser and bad guy.
yeah evidently Kevin has named me as the ring leader even though I was not the first to file with the AG, nor have I really urged others to do so. furthermoreI have only been saying what i'm doing, but according to Kevin i'm the leader, the mastermind and so forth.
Mr. Simbieda probably can't conceive the notion that someone - a single individual - is not in charge.
yeah evidently Kevin has named me as the ring leader even though I was not the first to file with the AG, nor have I really urged others to do so. furthermoreI have only been saying what i'm doing, but according to Kevin i'm the leader, the mastermind and so forth.
This is exactly what I was referring to. I have no contact with you beyond responding to a handful of comments here and on the Kickstarter comments pages. Were he to claim that we're in league it would cast a doubt on my claims enough that the facts might be ignored.
I'd bring up the fact that he claims anyone backing the Kickstarter who complains is in league. Because you are, by backing his failed project.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is all American law that offensively stupid?
You can wrong a group of people, and if they complain, can use the defence that they're in league against you to avoid investigation?
So, if it does at some point become a problem, does the legal entity then go, oh wait, there were reports something might be wrong here, and now it's too late to do anything. Whoops.
yeah evidently Kevin has named me as the ring leader even though I was not the first to file with the AG, nor have I really urged others to do so. furthermoreI have only been saying what i'm doing, but according to Kevin i'm the leader, the mastermind and so forth.
This is exactly what I was referring to. I have no contact with you beyond responding to a handful of comments here and on the Kickstarter comments pages. Were he to claim that we're in league it would cast a doubt on my claims enough that the facts might be ignored.
go with the facts and nothing else, I didn't expound so many facts on my submission cause I wasn't counting on any resolution from PB, instead I was going for an info run to see what Kevin's response and defense are.
Aaaand, PBWU time! Some positive news [obiwan]from a certain point of view[/obiwan]
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Palladium is a small company and has to juggle its workload. This week and next, we’ve been focused on finishing a couple of RPG books, before we can turn our attention back to Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
At least they're admitting they're doing feth all on this project. I'm sure it'll come as a shock to everyone that the two books they put this project on hold for, and are spending this week and next on, blew through their own specific deadlines. PB missing a release date? What an unexpected turn of events.
(although we did have a conference call with our manufacturing broker on Wednesday). More stuff is coming as we continue to work on other areas of support and getting Wave Two into final manufacturing. Shooting for second quarter 2016.
Wayne had meant to post the Wave 2 paper game pieces on DriveThruRPG last weekend, but then it was pointed out that you guys still need the cards to play them. With the book deadline we’ve been up against this week, he hasn’t yet been able to export the files and post them, but they should start going up in the next few days, along with their associated paper game pieces.
Aaaaand the clusterfehtery continues. Seriously, this drek should NOT be this hard. Why weren't these cards done, oh, I don't know, a year ago? Sure, it might be a little more work to convert to Drivethru PDF format, but it's not rocket surgery. And goes to show just how disorganised they are that they were about to pull the trigger and realized "Umm... stat cards?".
The bar's recessed into the ground at this point, and PB CONTINUE to trip over it. It's a spectacular example of incompetency, bordering on artistry. They should charge for this.
The weekly 98% grab bag sales pitch / 2% actual newsletter is out. Palladium made a phone call for robotech this week! That counts as ongoing work for the minimum legal purposes, right?!?! Oh, and (surprise!) the paper wave 2 minis didn't go up like they promised last week because the rules weren't ready. Yes, at Palladium, taking 2 years extra to fulfill their kickstarter rewards means that they can't even put out paper tabs with minis pics on them during that delay. Also, they're officially putting robotech on the backburner for a few weeks to get out some books (as opposed to unofficially doing squat for 8 months like in 2015). Forar, you'll have to update your countdown to stupidity as Robotech is now officially pushed back for the 12th time (a rough guess) until 2nd quarter 2016. It's the cusp of November and nothing has been done since February so I guess Palladium finally has to concede that we won't get our next batch of mouthwatering minis (paper or plastic) anytime soon.
Spoiler:
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Palladium is a small company and has to juggle its workload. This week and next, we’ve been focused on finishing a couple of RPG books, before we can turn our attention back to Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
(although we did have a conference call with our manufacturing broker on Wednesday). More stuff is coming as we continue to work on other areas of support and getting Wave Two into final manufacturing. Shooting for second quarter 2016.
Wayne had meant to post the Wave 2 paper game pieces on DriveThruRPG last weekend, but then it was pointed out that you guys still need the cards to play them. With the book deadline we’ve been up against this week, he hasn’t yet been able to export the files and post them, but they should start going up in the next few days, along with their associated paper game pieces.
Morgan this is not the first time they had a "Phone call" with their "Broker" nor is it the first time they made it seem like it was amazing news either.
Asterios wrote: Morgan this is not the first time they had a "Phone call" with their "Broker" nor is it the first time they made it seem like it was amazing news either.
Oh, for sure. That's why I pretty much ignored that part of the spiel, and focused on the unlikely as hell revision of the ETA. If I had time, I'd see how close Warboss's "12 times" release pushback is. I don't think it's close, for just Wave 2 (I'm thinking 5 or 6), but I think 12 is too low if you include the Wave 1 delays, as well as the delays from when it was still going to be one package.
I think unless they've done a crapload behind the scenes (and I find that hard to believe, given their penchant for shouting about their tiniest victories), I think EoQ2 is about as unrealistic as any other deadline they've given. If they work hard, put their shoulder into it, buckle down and give it their all? EoQ3 at an outset, in time for Black Friday 2016 maybe. But I don't expect that, as I expect there'll be another shiny thing that distracts them (along with their specific obligations, Adepticon, GenCon, possibly another PBOH), and that'll put 2016 off the table.
I think unless they've done a crapload behind the scenes (and I find that hard to believe, given their penchant for shouting about their tiniest victories), I think EoQ2 is about as unrealistic as any other deadline they've given. If they work hard, put their shoulder into it, buckle down and give it their all? EoQ3 at an outset, in time for Black Friday 2016 maybe. But I don't expect that, as I expect there'll be another shiny thing that distracts them (along with their specific obligations, Adepticon, GenCon, possibly another PBOH), and that'll put 2016 off the table.
Well, EoQ2 is a possibility if they really are on the verge of mass production. IF. But if they were, one, it'd be easy just to post a few pre-production samples to shut the doubters up, and two, it's still tight thanks to shipping and distribution requirements. So.. yeah, they might make it, but it's more likely the better part of another year.
Kevin is making me a liar. Just a couple days ago I stated that I would stay true to my word and not begin filing against PB before the 31st of of Dec., but with this update I'm going to begin gathering actionable information.
What upsets me the most is that I have to come here or to the Kickstarter comment section to learn about these updates. I'm not a subscriber to the PB newsletter, why should I be? The updates are supposed to be posted on the KS project site to inform the backers of relevant information. The fact that it is not borders on a breaking of the KSTOS in its self. So buckle on your big-boy pants, Kevin, you've had this coming.
Edit;
If anyone has factual information they would like to share please feel free to contact me and I will review it for possible inclusion.
Asterios wrote: Kevin doesn't post on the Kickstarter as much because he was told to stop spamvertising his gak on there.
I don't want advertisements for new things, but information relevant to the continuing progress of the project is vital to everyone who put money towards its completion. The fact that we are not being updated properly is more offensive than the current timeline to completion.
Asterios wrote: Kevin doesn't post on the Kickstarter as much because he was told to stop spamvertising his gak on there.
I don't want advertisements for new things, but information relevant to the continuing progress of the project is vital to everyone who put money towards its completion. The fact that we are not being updated properly is more offensive than the current timeline to completion.
which is why we don't get updates, he was using it to shill his product and not give us updates which he has none to give us, wave 2 is dead.
I don't want advertisements for new things, but information relevant to the continuing progress of the project is vital to everyone who put money towards its completion. The fact that we are not being updated properly is more offensive than the current timeline to completion.
You ARE assuming there is progress for an update. Given PB's tradition and history of malmanagement of projects, that's a big assumption.
Looking at things, that PB is applying their "tried and tested" management approach to a totally new field just shows how unsuited they are to this KS.
Yeah, as stated in his responses to the BBB, he was using the spam advertising "updates" to pad his update count and make it look like he was keeping in semi-regular contact with backers. Even with the spam, there were still long stretches where he didn't bother trying to sell more stuff to the people owed rewards from almost two years earlier. Someone with no knowledge of robotech or palladium would look at those misleading "updates" and think they were legitmate when they were just spam adverts. Of course that ignores the indisputable fact that the only real updates were 6+ months earlier when he was responding to BBB and the rest were just filler, ads, and attempts as changing the subject to anything else besides what he owes us.
If he can't spam more "please buy more stuff despite the fact that I haven't delivered on the stuff you bought 2 years ago!" updates anymore, that does at least partially explain the lack of official updates recently. In any case, it doesn't sound like the spam was working. The "exclusive" limited edition kickstarter only minis will be available to everyone for longer than they were exclusive by the end of the year and into January with their inclusion in the grab bags. Gencon sales were lackluster as well per their own admission. It seems like the robotech kickstarter bubble has long since burst from palladium and yet they're left standing their inexplicably wondering what happened despite holding the needle in their own hand.
Edit: Looks like the mechs are 1/700, but they come with the 1/1800 SDF
They're almost 1/3 the size of RRPGT minis? Wow... I guess that shows what someone competent and motivated can do with the design despite having about a fraction of the material to work with.
Talizvar wrote: Great, this is like a therapy session for our next "fix" since the local dealer is too tripped out on his product.
Our dealer cut the good stuff with too much talc and kept taking our money first while lying about what street corner he'd be on to pick it up... and now he's pissed off his mexican cartel and can't get more stuff to sell. Thankfully, we're all going on 12 months clean at this point so I think we're good.
warboss wrote: The weekly 98% grab bag sales pitch / 2% actual newsletter is out. Palladium made a phone call for robotech this week! That counts as ongoing work for the minimum legal purposes, right?!?! Oh, and (surprise!) the paper wave 2 minis didn't go up like they promised last week because the rules weren't ready. Yes, at Palladium, taking 2 years extra to fulfill their kickstarter rewards means that they can't even put out paper tabs with minis pics on them during that delay. Also, they're officially putting robotech on the backburner for a few weeks to get out some books (as opposed to unofficially doing squat for 8 months like in 2015). Forar, you'll have to update your countdown to stupidity as Robotech is now officially pushed back for the 12th time (a rough guess) until 2nd quarter 2016. It's the cusp of November and nothing has been done since February so I guess Palladium finally has to concede that we won't get our next batch of mouthwatering minis (paper or plastic) anytime soon.
Spoiler:
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Palladium is a small company and has to juggle its workload. This week and next, we’ve been focused on finishing a couple of RPG books, before we can turn our attention back to Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
(although we did have a conference call with our manufacturing broker on Wednesday). More stuff is coming as we continue to work on other areas of support and getting Wave Two into final manufacturing. Shooting for second quarter 2016.
Wayne had meant to post the Wave 2 paper game pieces on DriveThruRPG last weekend, but then it was pointed out that you guys still need the cards to play them. With the book deadline we’ve been up against this week, he hasn’t yet been able to export the files and post them, but they should start going up in the next few days, along with their associated paper game pieces.
Oh, so they've moved the goal posts again. I think it's time to use Asterios/Rick's UPSP guidelines to tell them feth no, give me a refund.
Has anyone figured out how much PB owes us for the unfulfilled models from a Battlecry set? Perhaps Forar? I intend to put it in as my refund amount + individual items ordered. And when Wave 2 doesn't deliver January 1, another letter to the AG on the "see, they can't hit a deadline if it was a barn and KS was two feet from it with a scattergun".
Stormonu wrote: Oh, so they've moved the goal posts again. I think it's time to use Asterios/Rick's UPSP guidelines to tell them feth no, give me a refund.
Has anyone figured out how much PB owes us for the unfulfilled models from a Battlecry set? Perhaps Forar? I intend to put it in as my refund amount + individual items ordered. And when Wave 2 doesn't deliver January 1, another letter to the AG on the "see, they can't hit a deadline if it was a barn and KS was two feet from it with a scattergun".
Like Meri joked, it depends on how you calculate it. I did two versions of the math in an earlier post, but a quick summary is it's either ~25% of a Battlecry ($30US) or ~45% of a Battlecry ($60US). Ironically, with PB's response to the BBB, the latter is more easily shown (using retail pricing, add the core and all the supplied expansions, and divide that by the cost of the core and all expansions included in a BC, and that's your percentage of what's been fulfilled. Subtract that from what you paid, and you have the result). I had to approximate the price on some things, but it's not hard to get a ballpark figure.
Given the price paid for shipping, they probably spent at least that, so there'll be no refund there. But every addon expansion that wasn't a BattleCry (Monster, Armored Valks, even stuff that was in the BC, but you purchased seperately) is owed in full.
Stormonu wrote: Oh, so they've moved the goal posts again. I think it's time to use Asterios/Rick's UPSP guidelines to tell them feth no, give me a refund.
Has anyone figured out how much PB owes us for the unfulfilled models from a Battlecry set? Perhaps Forar? I intend to put it in as my refund amount + individual items ordered. And when Wave 2 doesn't deliver January 1, another letter to the AG on the "see, they can't hit a deadline if it was a barn and KS was two feet from it with a scattergun".
Like Meri joked, it depends on how you calculate it. I did two versions of the math in an earlier post, but a quick summary is it's either ~25% of a Battlecry ($30US) or ~45% of a Battlecry ($60US). Ironically, with PB's response to the BBB, the latter is more easily shown (using retail pricing, add the core and all the supplied expansions, and divide that by the cost of the core and all expansions included in a BC, and that's your percentage of what's been fulfilled. Subtract that from what you paid, and you have the result). I had to approximate the price on some things, but it's not hard to get a ballpark figure.
Given the price paid for shipping, they probably spent at least that, so there'll be no refund there. But every addon expansion that wasn't a BattleCry (Monster, Armored Valks, even stuff that was in the BC, but you purchased seperately) is owed in full.
actually what we figured out was about $50 for the minis missing from a BattleCry.
Days since the last update: 27 Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **116** Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 247
Days until the end of Q2 2016: 241 (current target) Days until Gencon 2016: 274 Days until the end of 2016: 425
It's fascinating/funny that they haven't just said 'fyi, we'll be moving to a monthly update schedule', and instead we get to contrast their 'we'll try to deliver more updates in the weeks to come' while moving to their least frequent (regular) updating schedule to date.
4 fething months on that item breakdown from Wayne is inexcusable. I don't care how small a company they are or how busy their days can be; if they can't get this info within a couple of weeks (let alone nearly 1.5 quarters of the year), they are clearly drowning and don't want to admit it. Even a piecemeal release of a half dozen figures/resin bits per month as they got super duper mega ultra tournament edition alpha final approval would still be substantial info for us and evidence of tangible progress on the project, which they have been sorely lacking for so long that there may well now be babies born who weren't even conceived back when we got the 5 sprue breakdown renders. It takes more time for them to list the progress of this project than it takes for two people to *create new life and bring it into this world* (a few weeks early perhaps, but entirely within a viable timeframe).
Also, this seems vague (as is their way): "More stuff is coming as we continue to work on other areas of support and getting Wave Two into final manufacturing. Shooting for second quarter 2016. "
Shooting for? For what? For it to be in production? On a boat? On hand at the warehouse? Out to backers?
8 months for 'completion' (of whatever they're Shooting For), 9 months until Gencon, 14 months until the end of next year.
I've got 'a good feeling' about this one, you guys.
What's there to face? I've been doing the 'tongue-in-cheek taking them at their word, tinged with mockery and sarcasm' thing for a good 2 years now.
I think I've been pretty clear this is more a creative writing exercise and effort to provide context for those who only duck in irregularly than any sincere belief they'll get off their asses in the remote future. It's basically community service at this point.
Adding *rolls eyes* and *jerking motion* to every sentence just becomes a reason to copy/paste half my posts and include 4 pages of citations and context, at which point I'm no better than their weekly "newsletters".
Given how little they seem to do week to week, if there's anything that could do to move to a monthly schedule, it's those things.
*shrug* If nothing else, it makes me laugh once in a while. And hopefully some other people as well. I won't let their ongoing shenanigans dictate what I find funny, because they are (from my perspective) a comedy goldmine.
wow, I don't know why you are working so hard, Forar.
A mine requires lots of very hard, physical work to get at the small bits of gold it contains.*
PB are, at this point, picking up quite sizable nuggets and actjually throwing them at us in an attempt to shut us up or make us go away. It's a shame that they still don't seem to get the mesage that if they want to shut us up, they need to show us progress on wave two (c). If they want us to go away, they need to give us a "Refund (tm)".
* There is actually more Gold in a ton of computers, than there is in a ton of Gold Ore!
I pretty much devolve into a timeline of B.S. the like of which I had not seen before, so I am hitting it with a spoiler here.
This is helpful to me to see how the timing of everything went.
Update 112 Early Sep 2013 Yep, confirmed all was perfectly rosy with the kit closing on the 9th.
Update 113 Late Sep 2013 is too much like trolling...
"Delivery Estimate We are still shooting for a December ship date, but we don’t know yet if that’s a sure thing. What we do know is that Kickstarter backers will be shipped goods BEFORE we ship to distributors. What’s more, you’ll receive everything all at once, while the initial retail release will only include the main game and the first six expansion packs, with the rest coming out in waves throughout 2014. But you, wise Kickstarter backer, will already have all the things.
Including, as mentioned above, the mighty Jotun Armored Valkyrie, pictured here: "
Update 116 Early Nov 2013 is just one of those wall of text excuse updates we have grown accustomed to.
Oddly, the tone of on-going excuses pretty much continue from there on.
Update 125 Mid Jan 2014 wall of text.
Update 128 Late Jan 2014 wall of text and breaking it to us shipment in 2 waves.
Update 137 Mid Apr 2014 wall of text.
Update 139 Early May 2014 wall of text.
Update 148 June 2014 Factory build going on.
Update 149 July 2014 Gencon wall of text with the "vote" for retail.
Update 154 Aug 2014 post Gencon.
Update 156 Sep 2014 China visit.
Update 161 Oct 2014 Starter boxes going out of PB shipping to backers.*** Wave 1
Update 166 Dec 2014 Shipping to NA backers full wave 1 kits now "starting" overseas.
Update 167 Mid Jan 2015 Shipping to rest of world, wall of text. Particularly damning is this bit:
"Status of Wave Two Items Wave Two is coming in 2015. We have not speculated as to when, because we get torn apart when we have to push back release dates. When we feel more comfortable with a projected release schedule, you will be the first to know. It will be this year. I can tell you that three weeks ago, Jeff Burke and I sent China changes and corrections to many of the 3D engineering models used for mold making and we are waiting for a progress report from them. I will try to post images of the 3D renders here as they are finalized and approved.
Update 168 Jan 2015
Wave Two Update We got some of the revised 3D renders back from the engineers in China this week, and it looks like most of our issues with the Gnerl, Ghost, Lancer, and Glaug-Eldare were fixed. Some progress was also made on the Jotun Armored Valkyrie, but it looks like a few things haven’t been addressed yet. Jeff and I will be combing over these in the next few days, and if we determine they’re good to go, the engineers can finalize mold layouts, I’ll post some images of the renders, and hopefully they’ll make and send us some prototypes.
Update 169 Late Jan 2015 Australia / Europe on slow boat.
Update 173 Late Feb 2015 Many cad parting lines shown for Gnerl, Ghost, Lancer, Eldare and Jotun. Best post of wave 2 progress.
Update 175 Mid May 2015 Rest of world shipping complete and full list of wave1 and 2 packlist.
Update 178 Early June 2015 The big wall of text "Reset" that PB was trying to get.
Update 179 Early June 2015 The big wall of text "Reset" Part 2.
Update 180 Early June 2015 Scale discussion... a distraction or what??
Update 182 Mid June 2015 Flogging pre-order of the new metal minis from GHQ.
Update 183 Mid June 2015 The Scale poll.
Update 186 Late Aug 2015 The "Nasty Chatter" rant, this is when the BBB reports and threats of lawsuits seemed to get under Kevin's skin.
"Despite what some have suggested, I want you to know there has not been any misappropriation of the funds raised by the Kickstarter, nor any wrongdoing of any kind. Not by me or anyone at Palladium Books. There is absolutely NO merit for such conjecture or inferences. If there were ever any type of investigation, Palladium has accurate records, receipts, correspondences and documentation for every expense and transaction we’ve made regarding Robotech® RPG Tactics™. "
I cannot be bothered with the remaining 2 for now.
My point in all this?
Pretty much guaranteed as soon as it gets boring at their end, Kevin rises up and goes on fire and writes his wall of text.
Having reviewed all that stuff that came before, there really was not much left to do.
Heck, we were left with the idea some dies were being cut pretty much at the beginning of the year.
I cannot imagine anything less than being flat-out of money stopping the flow of information this cold.
Looking at past behavior, I think PB is toast in regards to Wave 2.
They are just trying to sweep it under the rug and move-on.
Yeah, the starter box is MORE than enough for you backers (if you got anything else but a starter box: you do not exist in our eyes and were not a true fan-friend).
We will be posting the following in the weeks ahead:
Actual cards for Wave Two game pieces.
Force Organization Charts.
Stats for Conventional Combat Vehicles (pre-Robotech).
Expanded rules, errata, and clarifications.
A free set of basic rules and paper miniatures will be made available online.
More photos of painted minis.
And we’ll try to do more updates.
Usually there is a fair amount of leeway in a term like "in the weeks ahead" so that it means 1-4 generally. Usually once you reach the next unit of time like a "month", most folks consider it to be the end of the allowable and acceptable period to be true. Once you get to MULTIPLE months like we are at right now, I suspect all but fan friends would consider "weeks ahead" to be over with.
Out of the seven broad bullet points they listed they'd accomplish in the WEEKS ahead, they partially accomplished ONE in the MONTHS ahead with the rewriting of a single rule in plain text format. That right there is classic Palladium style "progress" even when they set the bar as low as what other companies routinely do for free (faqs, galleries of painted minis, some minor pdfs of datacards and paper standees).
Given that Kevin has cited their massive number of updates (while ignoring that over half of them (97) occurred during the 32 days the campaign ran), it seems only fair to extrapolate that statistic for him.
If we use Kevin's Wonderful Math to simply average them out across the entire 929 days since the campaign began, those 188 updates work out to roughly 1 update every 5 days (4.94etc rounded up, accuracy-enthusiasts).
By that standard, they are critically failing at their efforts to produce more updates.
Heh. "Dear AG, yes, PB has submitted many Updates for the project, averaging out to one every 5 days, which means that in the last 2 months they should have had roughly a dozen, instead they've had two."
Yeah, the starter box is MORE than enough for you backers (if you got anything else but a starter box: you do not exist in our eyes and were not a true fan-friend).
Thought: Maybe we should start calling that box the "Ender box".
So does that make Forar the Speaker for the Dead? And that Kevin is stalked by Rick, the Shadow of the Hegemon and his Shadow Puppets?
Ok, I'll stop dragging this down the route of puns. I'm still just dumb-founded that PB can't either show SOMETHING or concede that mistakes were made. With each day that passes with just spamvertisments the idea that they can't do the former gains credence, while makes the latter seem more apparent. That's just going to end badly for everyone if they can't get out of their denial mode that they've screwed up OR show that they really have been doing something (even if it's crap compared to what they promised; I think at this point "overpromised" is beyond understatement).
Swabby wrote: That might be a great selling point! "These are the only minis you will ever need for this game, because it is all we're ever going to make!"
Kevin's All-You-Can-Eat buffet. For $9.99 he gives you a bag of snack-size chips (or crisps in the parlance of our former colonial overlords). When you complain about false advertising he points out that if that's all that you're given, that's all you physically are able to eat, thus satisfying the technical requirement of the phrase "can eat." It wasn't a "all you want to eat" buffet after all.
The logic there sounds legit based on the AG responses...
Well that, and on an airplane you'd pay several hundred dollars for that bag of chips. So you really owe them, anyway.
Oh, and also, too, as well, at no point did "Kevin's All-You-Can-Eat buffet" actually say they would provide you food. A buffet can also be a table. But nobody wanted to eat a table. Therefore, Palladium Books is in no way obligated to provide any food whatsoever, and the fact that a bag of chips was provided just shows how generous The Simbieda is.
Krinsath wrote: I'm still just dumb-founded that PB can't either show SOMETHING or concede that mistakes were made.
Kevin has in the past admitted to making mistakes. It's just that the "mistakes" are loving backers/fans/robotech and trusting others too much for his own good. It's his version of the old job interview answer of "I'm a perfectionist and need to get everything perfect" when asked about your biggest "flaw".
Kevin's All-You-Can-Eat buffet. For $9.99 he gives you a bag of snack-size chips (or crisps in the parlance of our former colonial overlords). When you complain about false advertising he points out that if that's all that you're given, that's all you physically are able to eat, thus satisfying the technical requirement of the phrase "can eat." It wasn't a "all you want to eat" buffet after all.
The logic there sounds legit based on the AG responses...
Sigh.. yes... that sadly is the exact same reasoning that Kevin applies to Robotech extrapolated to another topic. :(
RRT basically is dead. As a miniature wargame, the lack of continual releases and updates basically meant this get swept into the back drawers of most wargamers, and the lack of support means nobody, both gamers and retailers, will want to touch this without seeing significant manufacturer commitment.
Good luck with that one.
Wave 1 is out, the basic rules is out, it's basically like a boardgame that gets dusted off every few months for a game. Except it's not a board game, so most people will just keep it in the back of the closet to avoid the hassle of setting things up. Sales for the Ender box is probably tanking or at bottom.
Wave 2 may get done.. actually I believe, barring PB turning turtle, it will actually get done, it's just that by the time I see anything come out from Wave 2, I might be just too damn old to put it together.
But even if Wave 2 comes out, no retailer or gamer would still want to touch the product, because, basically is it's just not conforming to normal business models. Not much in way to support interest for gamers or turnover for retailers. Either way, Wave 2 comes out, it'd almost certainly dead stock and sit for quite a while. Recouping the cost is going to be uphill if not impossible.
If Wave 2 doesn't make it out, then PB most likely would be under scrutiny, and most like won't ever be a factor in the industry again. Works for me -- I'm out some cash, but that company is basically never going to be able to whitewash itself.
If we take the product as what they claim it to be -- an RPG supplement -- it won't fly either, because it's badly marketed, badly priced, and totally inappropriate to the RPG. So that's dead. Not possible for PB to recoup that way either.
So, the game system is basically dead and gone, we're just seeing the twitching of a corpse as it gets whipped by people who don't know what they are doing.
Me? I got most of what I want.. halfway decent models, for Wave 1. I'd be out Wave 2 at least for a bit, but wasn't into the KS for the game system anyway.
Basically there's no good way for PB to get out of this one. They won't recoup costs; they missed that boat by a wide mile. They might break even in terms of legal obligations, if they get Wave 2 out. If certain things happen, they get a load of legalities piled up on them, which won't break my heart. The best I can see them doing is getting Wave 2 done and then slowly peddling a dead system.
A cab charges you $40 to get driven 12 miles and then runs out of gas after 8 miles. Since 8 miles is actually 13 kilometers and 13 > 12, then you actually get more for your money!
A cab charges you $40 to get driven 12 miles and then runs out of gas after 8 miles. Since 8 miles is actually 13 kilometers and 13 > 12, then you actually get more for your money!
As an addendum to my earlier comments; when I give them the 'tongue-in-cheek taking them at their word' bit, it's not just for the humour value, but also as an ongoing challenge to do better. To stop being a running gag. When they produce tangible evidence of progress, they get honest critique/appreciation where applicable. That won't stop the "about time" or "was that so fething hard" commentary appended, but wallowing in "omg the internet is so mean" is to be vastly whinier and more childish than anything I might have said to date. I'm not going to sugar coat my commentary (nor should anyone), and given that we've seen that years of attempted polite and respectful communication efforts go ignored or partially addressed (eg: the Big List Of Questions that have been mostly unanswered even a year and a half later, as I recall).
Act in a professional manner, keep people actually updated, show tangible progress, great. As people have said until blue in the face, it's not just delays that are aggravating, it's delays while a company that seems to have no plan for progress faffs about aimlessly.
Do I seriously think that they needed just 9 months to deliver rather than 6? Not really. I will not remotely be shocked if another quarter or two go by and we end up with another quarter or two tacked onto that target (why do you think I've had the "end of 2016" countdown included for all these weeks/months?), and as my previously appended snark noted, even that was considered optimistic.
Just something to toss down, in case the cry of 'unreasonable haters!' gets thrown around, and to note that there are avenues of progression back to reasonable discourse.
But they require PB to do things, actually do them, not just say they will and then quietly mumble something about conference calls for months at a time.
But they require PB to do things, actually do them, not just say they will and then quietly mumble something about conference calls for months at a time.
From a business perspective, IMO there's really no profit incentive for PB to finish RRT any more, because as a revenue source, it's pretty dead. Way difficult to recoup the cost, and there's no real market for it any more -- they missed it bad. Given that assumption, it's actually quite reasonable for a business to put such a project on the back burner.
Except that at Palladium, apparently ALL their projects are on the back burner. So they may not have a revenue stream to keep the lights on, and they may be busy trying to get enough revenue to survive as a business. If this is true, then I have very little hope for Wave 2.
There's plenty of penalties if they don't complete, which is about the only thing that is driving things forward in fits and starts. But such kinds of motivation rarely give good results.
You know what would be truly scary? Is that Palladium is clinging onto the fantasy that RRT will be their big money spinner. And they proceed to manage the project with that assumption, yet constantly do not have the resources to make the final production run, and just keep waffling and doing small actions to try to raise funds (which is in a way what we are possibly seeing now). They can't report progress because they can't make progress, and that fantasy of theirs keep them from fronting up to reality and working towards a reasonable closure.
Which points to that there is simply no reasonable closure to this poor sod of a show -- there's no win-win situation any more. If Wave 2 comes out, the backers "win", but PB will likely quickly flip over because of poor non-KS sales. If Wave 2 doesn't come out, the backers "lose", PB gets hit with bad worse rep, probable debt, and likely legalities to boot. The best "win" for PB is to stay in stasis until something changes, which means vague hand-waffling and cryptic statements to stave off backers while waiting for a white knight to come along... but that rarely works out.
There's no good ending for RRT likely; all that remains is to see how much twitching is involved. Hey maybe we should "invest" in a shrink-wrapped copy of the Ender Box. Might become quite collectible in future years...
But they require PB to do things, actually do them, not just say they will and then quietly mumble something about conference calls for months at a time.
From a business perspective, IMO there's really no profit incentive for PB to finish RRT any more, because as a revenue source, it's pretty dead. Way difficult to recoup the cost, and there's no real market for it any more -- they missed it bad. Given that assumption, it's actually quite reasonable for a business to put such a project on the back burner.
If you're basing what you're saying on sense, and observed fact, you'd be 100% correct.
However, if you go by what Palladium Books has said (certainly a steaming load of gak, but if you can't go by what they have to say...what can you go by?) that the molds were being tooled a LONG time ago. So, the single biggest cost has already been sunk.
Of course, since they're out of money, that means that they paid to have the molds made (why can't they show renders, then?) when they didn't have the money to actually produce the stuff?
The incompetence...It truly is turtles all the way down.
No argument there. It's something of a no-win scenario, but there are degrees of losing.
It's why I strive to keep my commentary fact based (if limited by my recollection, but without referencing every post I make a dozen times, I think I've been fairer than they deserve most of the time) and focused on the gulf of disparity between what they've said they'd do, and what they've done.
As a peasant/foreigner/etc I doubt I'll ever be able to drop an actual challenge, but keeping the facts on the forefront means they can't just hide behind people's vague and fuzzy memories. I've had people note "holy gak, has it really been X months since they did Y??", so I like to think there is some value, even if it's just keeping more of the general public aware of what is going on. As a backer, we're well aware of how long this crap has been ongoing, but it's tiresome for non-backers to try to minimize that timeframe and frustration, so having easy go-to references helps prevent some of those debates.
Though of course there are the usual suspects who will consider delivery in the next two decades a victory. They can either take the facts or not, but I'm not going to bother arguing them directly. That's a debate purely based on explaining to third parties, I'm not going to change someone's mind who continues to lavish slobbery tongue baths on PB's terrible business practices.
Lynx7725 wrote: Which points to that there is simply no reasonable closure to this poor sod of a show -- there's no win-win situation any more. If Wave 2 comes out, the backers "win", but PB will likely quickly flip over because of poor non-KS sales. If Wave 2 doesn't come out, the backers "lose", PB gets hit with bad worse rep, probable debt, and likely legalities to boot. The best "win" for PB is to stay in stasis until something changes, which means vague hand-waffling and cryptic statements to stave off backers while waiting for a white knight to come along... but that rarely works out.
I disagree, PB does not have the option of putting wave 2 on the back burner, they have already collected the money for it, and failure to deliver will lead to some serious legal issues and most likely closure as a company since all it takes is but one person to get the ball rolling and for others to follow, if but one backer gets a refund thru PB caving in or a legal issue, then it opens the door for all to get a refund, and if PB thinks their money issues are bad now, they are about to get worse, their best bet would have been to refund a lot earlier before things got this bad.
However, if you go by what Palladium Books has said (certainly a steaming load of gak, but if you can't go by what they have to say...what can you go by?) that the molds were being tooled a LONG time ago. So, the single biggest cost has already been sunk.
Where did they actually say that? I remember them saying over and over that they were working towards it REAAAALLY HARD and OMG GUYS! SO CLOSE! but never that wave two was actually being tooled. It was the sprue version of what they did for a year with the rulebook claiming a dozen time with various synonyms that is was finalized/approved/done but not actually having it go to print for a full year.
I'm pretty sure the quote was to the effect of ND having handed over the renders ages ago, and PB having the factory they're working with inexplicably create the digital files for cutting the sprues into molds based on those renders, but I don't recall them saying anything about molds being done.
Add to that where they've gone on repeatedly over the last few months about 'trimming the piece count', which would be a silly thing to worry about if the molds were cut; that ship has sailed in that case.
Well, PB will not let us know where they are at but I can hazard a couple guesses:
- Some or all tooling is done in China but PB is unable or even possibly unwilling to pay.
- Possibly too many starter kits bought OR the "disappointing" sales made them realize they will not get return on "investment".
- Tooling is not started and based on sales, PB does not want steel injection molds and are looking for a cheaper alternative (that is their style!).
- What lends some merit to this to me is the GHQ "backers only" miniatures released.
- Point #2 for this is why not continue with the same groups that got wave 1 out? Proven success there... unless something happened.
- Things are how PB says: still hammering out cuts and layout... I really cannot seriously contemplate that!
Oh well, Battletech KS finished with 2.86 million.
Can't wait to play with those virtual miniatures.
You forgot another option, seeing the success of battletech, Kevin is now approaching factories asking if they can make the miniatures out of computer magic that people play with through their computer tvs.
The timing of the broker call can't be coincidence.
Damnit, mike stuck a picture in between! An ability also beyond Palladium.
Mike, has Wayne ever asked you if you are a wizard?
Joyboozer wrote: You forgot another option, seeing the success of battletech, Kevin is now approaching factories asking if they can make the miniatures out of computer magic that people play with through their computer tvs.
The timing of the broker call can't be coincidence.
Damnit, mike stuck a picture in between! An ability also beyond Palladium.
Mike, has Wayne ever asked you if you are a wizard?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: Is that Mike's closed group? Or on Palladium's page?
I added them to the other thread that I placed the skirmish stuff on too......
Yup, thanks. I got the bump on the other thread but I wasn't sure if Palladium responded by putting out the "official" version of the same thing in response to your putting it up yourself first.
Ctaylor wrote: At some point, it has to make zero financial sense for PB to make and ship wave 2. I wonder what they will do then?
Spin the wheel of blame, or roll on the table of blame or whatever randomiser Palladium RPGs use. Most of the spots result in blame the backers. I think there's a sparkly top dollar spot named Rick.
Ctaylor wrote: At some point, it has to make zero financial sense for PB to make and ship wave 2. I wonder what they will do then?
They've got what money they're going to get out of it. No way future sales would make up for the cost of having to actually produce the stuff - especially if they really haven't finished (or even started) tooling.
A lawsuit will, most likely, go nowhere (sorry, Rick). Wave Two has obviously been abandoned, and I believe that decision was made a long time ago.
Unless someone finds a way to actually push Kevin's buttons and force some sort of action out of him, I think they've gotten away with it.
Ctaylor wrote: At some point, it has to make zero financial sense for PB to make and ship wave 2. I wonder what they will do then?
They've got what money they're going to get out of it. No way future sales would make up for the cost of having to actually produce the stuff - especially if they really haven't finished (or even started) tooling.
A lawsuit will, most likely, go nowhere (sorry, Rick). Wave Two has obviously been abandoned, and I believe that decision was made a long time ago.
Unless someone finds a way to actually push Kevin's buttons and force some sort of action out of him, I think they've gotten away with it.
well lets see enough suits and or government action and we get to see PB burn that is more then enough worth it, and a lawsuit will go to victory so don't see how you think that is going nowhere.
Ctaylor wrote: At some point, it has to make zero financial sense for PB to make and ship wave 2. I wonder what they will do then?
Spin the wheel of blame, or roll on the table of blame or whatever randomiser Palladium RPGs use. Most of the spots result in blame the backers. I think there's a sparkly top dollar spot named Rick.
Joyboozer wrote: He's been putting them up himself first? That's pretty gross, and might explain the delay on Palladium posting them officially.
Unless I'm wrong, I suspect you've got the timing/causality reversed. From Mike's posts here, he seems feed up that the rules he either heavily influenced or flat out created and submitted to Palladium haven't been posted for months after they were supposed to because Palladium hasn't gotten around to even formating them in RRPGT style... so he published them himself as a response to Palladium's inaction... not the other way around. It seems that even when they get work FOR FREE from Valued BackersTM sadly Palladium can't be bothered to put forth a token effort to get that product out on time.
Joyboozer wrote: He's been putting them up himself first? That's pretty gross, and might explain the delay on Palladium posting them officially.
Unless I'm wrong, I suspect you've got the timing/causality reversed. From Mike's posts here, he seems feed up that the rules he either heavily influenced or flat out created and submitted to Palladium haven't been posted for months after they were supposed to because Palladium hasn't gotten around to even formating them in RRPGT style... so he published them himself as a response to Palladium's inaction... not the other way around. It seems that even when they get work FOR FREE from Valued BackersTM sadly Palladium can't be bothered to put forth a token effort to get that product out on time.
either that or they are stretching what they have out over time so they can say they are doing something.
Certainly one or the other. But I'm going to doubt that Mike just plain did it. You know he tried to get them to pull their thumbs out of their asses multiple times before just putting the stuff out there.
So they couldn't even get it together enough to put out work produced by other people who he suggested that if they didn't do so, he'd just plain put it out there.
But that's OK, because now they're having to step back from RT because, well, they have other product lines you know, you whining little backer losers.
either that or they are stretching what they have out over time so they can say they are doing something.
Not that the lack of any shred of truth or common sense has ever stopped Palladium from using it as justification but stretching out the convention vehicles rules has ZERO impact on the progress/work/completion of the kickstarter rewards that they are obligated contractually to fulfill or refund. In fact, the only effect it could have is to delay the completion of the rewards as it is a SEPARATE project that is peripherally related to the kickstarter. Them working on the conventional vehicle rules is about as effective at satisfying their legal obligations as if you brought your Toyota Camry into the mechanic for an appointment to be fixed and he instead worked on the Toyota Corolla that was parked next to it instead of your car.
Even "advanced" rules are beyond the scope of the KS and its rewards and don't count towards its completion. They've already satisfied the reward for creating the rules with the starter set. They now just need to get their asses in gear to actually fulfill their model rewards. Anything else (whether RRPGT related or not) is just a distraction.
either that or they are stretching what they have out over time so they can say they are doing something.
Not that the lack of any shred of truth or common sense has ever stopped Palladium from using it as justification but stretching out the convention vehicles rules has ZERO impact on the progress/work/completion of the kickstarter rewards that they are obligated contractually to fulfill or refund. In fact, the only effect it could have is to delay the completion of the rewards as it is a SEPARATE project that is peripherally related to the kickstarter. Them working on the conventional vehicle rules is about as effective at satisfying their legal obligations as if you brought your Toyota Camry into the mechanic for an appointment to be fixed and he instead worked on the Toyota Corolla that was parked next to it instead of your car.
you didn't read those responses he gave the AG's or the BBB did you? cause this is what he used as an excuse of them doing work on the project.
either that or they are stretching what they have out over time so they can say they are doing something.
Not that the lack of any shred of truth or common sense has ever stopped Palladium from using it as justification but stretching out the convention vehicles rules has ZERO impact on the progress/work/completion of the kickstarter rewards that they are obligated contractually to fulfill or refund. In fact, the only effect it could have is to delay the completion of the rewards as it is a SEPARATE project that is peripherally related to the kickstarter. Them working on the conventional vehicle rules is about as effective at satisfying their legal obligations as if you brought your Toyota Camry into the mechanic for an appointment to be fixed and he instead worked on the Toyota Corolla that was parked next to it instead of your car.
you didn't read those responses he gave the AG's or the BBB did you? cause this is what he used as an excuse of them doing work on the project.
You didn't read my post, did you? I said it hasn't stopped them from using it in the first sentence. My point is that their justification of "working on the project" is crap in relation to the conventional vehicle rules, advanced rules, convention exclusives, etc.
Joyboozer wrote: He's been putting them up himself first? That's pretty gross, and might explain the delay on Palladium posting them officially.
Actually thanks for the support. The rules have been ready since June or July. PB has been "reviewing" them this whole time. Jaymz got sick of PB and the wait and posted them up himself on a few locations so there was no reason for me to hold back any longer either since they are in a way already public. He put them up in my FB group and a few others that I am not a member of.
Actually thanks for the support. The rules have been ready since June or July. PB has been "reviewing" them this whole time. Jaymz got sick of PB and the wait and posted them up himself on a few locations so there was no reason for me to hold back any longer either since they are in a way already public. He put them up in my FB group and a few others that I am not a member of.
3+ months just to review... nuts. They have no sense of timing or urgency.
Forar wrote: I'm pretty sure the quote was to the effect of ND having handed over the renders ages ago, and PB having the factory they're working with inexplicably create the digital files for cutting the sprues into molds based on those renders, but I don't recall them saying anything about molds being done.
Add to that where they've gone on repeatedly over the last few months about 'trimming the piece count', which would be a silly thing to worry about if the molds were cut; that ship has sailed in that case.
Yeah, apparently, PB has been so sucessful with reducing the part count, they got it down to 0.
Joyboozer wrote: He's been putting them up himself first? That's pretty gross, and might explain the delay on Palladium posting them officially.
Unless I'm wrong, I suspect you've got the timing/causality reversed. From Mike's posts here, he seems feed up that the rules he either heavily influenced or flat out created and submitted to Palladium haven't been posted for months after they were supposed to because Palladium hasn't gotten around to even formating them in RRPGT style... so he published them himself as a response to Palladium's inaction... not the other way around. It seems that even when they get work FOR FREE from Valued BackersTM sadly Palladium can't be bothered to put forth a token effort to get that product out on time.
To be fair, Steve Jackson Games is no better. We've been waiting on the Ogre fan-created scenarios to be e-published for years now.
To be fair, Steve Jackson Games is no better. We've been waiting on the Ogre fan-created scenarios to be e-published for years now.
I don't think that is a fair comparison. SJG's missing scenarios is more akin to the missing skirmish rules we were contracted to get but didn't in RRPGT. SJG, to my knowledge, delivered on all the physical rewards which made up the vast majority of the value pledged. They delivered the meat and potatoes and gravy but skipped out on some garnish. Palladium has instead delivered the meat but the potatoes and gravy are missing and they've been trying to get us to buy dessert in the meantime while stalling.
Actually thanks for the support. The rules have been ready since June or July. PB has been "reviewing" them this whole time. Jaymz got sick of PB and the wait and posted them up himself on a few locations so there was no reason for me to hold back any longer either since they are in a way already public. He put them up in my FB group and a few others that I am not a member of.
3+ months just to review... nuts. They have no sense of timing or urgency.
More like "THESE RULES ARE TERRIBLE! There isn't a single 98% in here ANYWHERE!"
Actually thanks for the support. The rules have been ready since June or July. PB has been "reviewing" them this whole time. Jaymz got sick of PB and the wait and posted them up himself on a few locations so there was no reason for me to hold back any longer either since they are in a way already public. He put them up in my FB group and a few others that I am not a member of.
3+ months just to review... nuts. They have no sense of timing or urgency.
More like "THESE RULES ARE TERRIBLE! There isn't a single 98% in here ANYWHERE!"
I played various Palladium RPGs for over a decade. Terrible rules have NEVER been a reason not to publish a product!
either that or they are stretching what they have out over time so they can say they are doing something.
Not that the lack of any shred of truth or common sense has ever stopped Palladium from using it as justification but stretching out the convention vehicles rules has ZERO impact on the progress/work/completion of the kickstarter rewards that they are obligated contractually to fulfill or refund. In fact, the only effect it could have is to delay the completion of the rewards as it is a SEPARATE project that is peripherally related to the kickstarter. Them working on the conventional vehicle rules is about as effective at satisfying their legal obligations as if you brought your Toyota Camry into the mechanic for an appointment to be fixed and he instead worked on the Toyota Corolla that was parked next to it instead of your car.
you didn't read those responses he gave the AG's or the BBB did you? cause this is what he used as an excuse of them doing work on the project.
You didn't read my post, did you? I said it hasn't stopped them from using it in the first sentence. My point is that their justification of "working on the project" is crap in relation to the conventional vehicle rules, advanced rules, convention exclusives, etc.
but as far as PB thinks it is viable, it shows they are working on wave 2 and our product, never said it was right or that it is smart but hey the AG has bought it for now since they will not do the investigation but relying on the complainants to do it and file the information with them.
I was just making fun of what warboss posted about mike putting them up himself, it sounds gross, I didn't actually mean anything else other than that.
Joyboozer wrote: He's been putting them up himself first? That's pretty gross, and might explain the delay on Palladium posting them officially.
Unless I'm wrong, I suspect you've got the timing/causality reversed. From Mike's posts here, he seems feed up that the rules he either heavily influenced or flat out created and submitted to Palladium haven't been posted for months after they were supposed to because Palladium hasn't gotten around to even formating them in RRPGT style... so he published them himself as a response to Palladium's inaction... not the other way around. It seems that even when they get work FOR FREE from Valued BackersTM sadly Palladium can't be bothered to put forth a token effort to get that product out on time.
I think you and a couple of other responders missed the joke he was attempting to make. I was going to make the same kind of response, until I saw what he was getting at.
Joyboozer's response was in your post to Mike that read
Yup, thanks. I got the bump on the other thread but I wasn't sure if Palladium responded by putting out the "official" version of the same thing in response to your putting it up yourself first.
He was making the joke that if the pause isn't before "yourself", but instead after it, it's referencing a bodily insertion, typically into the posterior.
That's not to say the joke was funny, but I doubt he was intending to be taken as serious.
Joyboozer wrote: I was just making fun of what warboss posted about mike putting them up himself, it sounds gross, I didn't actually mean anything else other than that.
He was making the joke that if the pause isn't before "yourself", but instead after it, it's referencing a bodily insertion, typically into the posterior.
That's not to say the joke was funny, but I doubt he was intending to be taken as serious.
Indeed, it went completely over my head. I just didn't get that he was talking about Uranus.
I played various Palladium RPGs for over a decade. Terrible rules have NEVER been a reason not to publish a product!
Rules written by The Simbieda, by definition, can not be terrible.
That's because his team really holds him to account, rather than blowing smoke up his ass. If it's bad, they say so. But more often than not, it's his best work ever.
So can a Cat's Eye attach to a Core Squadron of Valkyries? Just want to be sure. I think that the rules look good. 7 command points for a cat's eye seems a little high though. Can you offer some design insight as to why it gets so many? I would think 4-5 would be fair. Additionally, do you have to pay command points for use of it's abilities?
CaptKaruthors wrote: So can a Cat's Eye attach to a Core Squadron of Valkyries? Just want to be sure. I think that the rules look good. 7 command points for a cat's eye seems a little high though. Can you offer some design insight as to why it gets so many? I would think 4-5 would be fair.
well a CatsEye has a bigger picture of the field then say your average veritech and such so it would know more about what is going on and what to do.
plus I have my newest version of the cats eye being done now on shapeways, it will have a more rounded dome and canopies and a hole for the magnet to attach it to a stem(figured I'd save me the time of drilling out a hole for a magnet and just have it shaped into the plane itself), wheee.
CaptKaruthors wrote: So can a Cat's Eye attach to a Core Squadron of Valkyries? Just want to be sure. I think that the rules look good. 7 command points for a cat's eye seems a little high though. Can you offer some design insight as to why it gets so many? I would think 4-5 would be fair. Additionally, do you have to pay command points for use of it's abilities?
Since the whole Cat's Eye was designed as a support and to help others in combat ops it has a high number of Command Points to represent the info it is feeding to commanders as well as what the crew does directly.....that was the thought process at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's a special and so could be attached to a single VF Squadron.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also look at the price of a Cat's Eye, as much as 4 VT's, no firepower. Only real use is scenario or as a force multiplier in a larger battle.
I played various Palladium RPGs for over a decade. Terrible rules have NEVER been a reason not to publish a product!
Rules written by The Simbieda, by definition, can not be terrible.
That's because his team really holds him to account, rather than blowing smoke up his ass. If it's bad, they say so. But more often than not, it's his best work ever.
That's probably the most impressive part. Do you have any idea how hard it is to, literally, make the most recent thing you've done the BEST thing you've ever done?
Actually thanks for the support. The rules have been ready since June or July. PB has been "reviewing" them this whole time. Jaymz got sick of PB and the wait and posted them up himself on a few locations so there was no reason for me to hold back any longer either since they are in a way already public. He put them up in my FB group and a few others that I am not a member of.
3+ months just to review... nuts. They have no sense of timing or urgency.
More like "THESE RULES ARE TERRIBLE! There isn't a single 98% in here ANYWHERE!"
Maybe they ran out of TMs and ® symbols and had to order more from the factory.
I think Mikes experience of dealing with Wayne shows exactly why this project has had so many delays, the only thing Palladium can truly claim to do professionally is bottleneck.
This should be a lesson for any of you running your own businesses, no matter how hard you work on your end, if your client is a useless turd, you'll get nowhere.
The moment a client starts telling me how busy they are I mentally double their quote, sometimes triple. Not to try and rip them off, or put them off accepting my price ( most of the time), but for the simple fact that every approval deadline will be missed costing time and money.
I feel for Mike, ND and their Chinese broker.
Actually thanks for the support. The rules have been ready since June or July. PB has been "reviewing" them this whole time. Jaymz got sick of PB and the wait and posted them up himself on a few locations so there was no reason for me to hold back any longer either since they are in a way already public. He put them up in my FB group and a few others that I am not a member of.
3+ months just to review... nuts. They have no sense of timing or urgency.
Exactly right and when it comes to anything fan or freelance submitted it takes time for Kevin the Great to rewrite 98% of it so he can take 100% of the credit.
I played various Palladium RPGs for over a decade. Terrible rules have NEVER been a reason not to publish a product!
Rules written by The Simbieda, by definition, can not be terrible.
That's because his team really holds him to account, rather than blowing smoke up his ass. If it's bad, they say so. But more often than not, it's his best work ever.
That's probably the most impressive part. Do you have any idea how hard it is to, literally, make the most recent thing you've done the BEST thing you've ever done?
If your starting bar is low enough...
For example, peeing on shoes. If your standard is filling both shoes, and you graduate to merely dribbling on one, that's a huge improvement! Best day ever!
I believe that is the motivation placard in the Palladium lunch room above the fridge that was the scene of the Dastardly Palladium Scribbles Theft of 2015TM.
Dying? That would require life first. Because of Palladium's treatment of backers and general incompetence resulting in 1-2 years delay and counting, it was stillborne to begin with.
Sadly, the game could have been good, too. The rules aren't bad for a first try at miniatures gaming rules, there is less goofiness in rules wording in it than a typical GW game. The armies seem rather well balanced, apart from the original blast rules, and the pod kickline of doom. To much time was spent in the melee options department, and that needs a bit of streamlining. LoS needs to be looked at a bit more closely.
The formations are a neat idea, a reason to stay in coherency, rather than being force to do it, and even benefits for not being in coherency in certain circumstances.
Yes, there are issues with each of my generalizations, but those appear to be more of an outlier than the norm. The rules are easy to learn, and the game plays pretty quickly. Sadly, it will never go anywhere do to the mismanagement, and overall poor communication of those in charge of it.
• This game is awesome. It has some flaws...but it isn't quite the hot mess that 40k is right now. It's a refreshing change. I have recommended it to anyone that's willing to try it out...and have gotten 4 new people interested and playing regularly.
• The game is easy to learn, is fun, and plays quickly. Set up time is quick...so you aren't spending 30 minutes just trying to set up before turn 1.
• This game had a great chance at being a popular game but hasn't been given the support that is required of a wargame. PB is completely and totally clueless as to how to successfully push this game into the mainstream channels. No where on their website is there a splash page featuring the game, nor is there anywhere on their website showing off properly painted models, multiple views, etc. Every other miniatures producer is doing this. The cool factor of the models and showing it off is a huge factor in drawing players in. None of this exists. They really over looked this and/or do not deem it important. Huge mistake.
• Support for this game beyond the kickstarter has been pathetic from PB. I understand that people are waiting for Wave 2 and that a massive amount of energy should be devoted to completing it...however, if PB's goal is to make this into a flagship game..then they should treat it as such and we should expect them to support it as such beyond the kickstarter. I see a lot of people slamming PB for attempting (albeit poor attempts) anything beyond Wave 2. That's nonsense. Now, I'm not going to defend PB and their horrible handling of any of it. However, anyone that wants or has wanted this game to have longevity should at least support any additions to this game beyond Wave 2. If not, then please...feel free to sell your stuff and move on. There is many people like me that want this game to endure...despite PBs stupidity, naiveté, and lack of listening to anyone willing to give solid input to make things better. Their hubris knows no bounds.
• The lack of any new releases dooms this game as it falls off the radar. Lets just drop the pretense of Convention Exclusives...and make those game pieces for general release. Furthermore, you are a 1/3 of the way there in completing a Super Valk set...at this point you may as well make the fighter and battloid in pewter, PB...you are already a 1/3 of the way there. Same with the male power armor. I would think sculpting a new set of arms for different poses to add to that blister pack would be fairly inexpensive...yet allows you to deliver a unit to people that are wanting it. It also satisfies part of Wave 2. Same with female power armor. Having and expecting these units made in something other than plastic should have been the goal from the beginning. You don't need that many of them for the game..and aren't a cornerstone to the core of the factions. PB should have made all core units in plastic (which they did) and any elite/special units in resin or pewter..simply for the fact that you don't need that many. They could have solved a lot of wave 2 issues by going this route. Hey PB, stop it. Just release these models to the general public now. People want the units to use. Let them have what they want.
• Cat's Eye, Comanchero, and Sea Sergeant game pieces. Come on PB...make these in pewter or resin...and sell them with cards. This is easily one of the simplest things you can do and get a new model release by years end. These exist outside of Wave 2..but people will want them.
• Competitive play and league packets. This is the easiest thing to complete and should have been released within the first 2 weeks of the games release to the general public. I have a working draft of this stuff...but it doesn't seem like anyone really cares. I also have campaign packets in the works.
• Booster packs of Special character cards. This is another easy product to release. I have created some special character cards that add to the game play of the game without the need of models. PB should release alternate versions of our heroes to change up strategies and tactics. Maybe a better Rick Hunter card to represent him at the end of the Macross series..a veteran pilot of Skull One. His current card to me, reads as where he was as leader of Vermillion Squad. Get them made and put them into general release. I think a booster pack of special characters from each faction would be a fun little micro purchase.
• I think that we are all in agreement that PB handling of this game sucks...but despite PBs stupidity..if you are a person like me that wants this game to have longevity and stick around..we should be supportive of any efforts from PB to grow the game...or anyone like Mike that adds things to the game. The burden of all this should fall to PB though. If they truly cared for this game as a flagship product...then dammit treat it as such. To think that the two RPG books they are working on right now instead of Robotech is somehow going to generate longer term gains...is really short sighted. Robotech has the chance to be their primary income generator if they chose to treat it as such. Sadly, that isn't the case.
So here we all are...wanting new content, wanting new models, and have to take what we can get from PB or create it ourselves.
CaptKaruthors wrote: So can a Cat's Eye attach to a Core Squadron of Valkyries? Just want to be sure. I think that the rules look good. 7 command points for a cat's eye seems a little high though. Can you offer some design insight as to why it gets so many? I would think 4-5 would be fair. Additionally, do you have to pay command points for use of it's abilities?
Since the whole Cat's Eye was designed as a support and to help others in combat ops it has a high number of Command Points to represent the info it is feeding to commanders as well as what the crew does directly.....that was the thought process at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's a special and so could be attached to a single VF Squadron.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also look at the price of a Cat's Eye, as much as 4 VT's, no firepower. Only real use is scenario or as a force multiplier in a larger battle.
Are it's abilities always active or do they require the expenditure of Command Points to use? The card isn't very clear on that.
The Good The idea of Robotech as a tabletop game is quite good.
The bones of the rules play well, I quite like them.
The book is quite nice looking as well.
The images / look of the individual models are iconic and gain interest from pretty much anyone who sees them.
The starter box is impressive looking both exterior and volume of contents.
Despite delays of new models (wave 2) some new models are available due to GHQ releases so there are a couple things to be excited about.
BUT
The Bad Models are a bit of a challenge for the newbie both in how tiny they are and parts count.
The challenge is even greater initially with no numbers or identification of the parts (alleviated with follow-up documents).
The time it takes to make a sufficient number of models to play is a bit of a barrier for the impatient.
PB's rather low/slow advertising / support of the game is noticeably unexciting compared to other companies.
The core "support group" (KS backers) for the game has been "shafted" with a long wait for promised miniatures (wave 2): we are rather torn in promoting the game.
PB is a company that historically is happy to take your money for a "pre-order" and the customer does not see results for years or at all: not a practice you want to support.
The 15mm consideration we can chalk-up to a joke now right?
• This game had a great chance at being a popular game but hasn't been given the support that is required of a wargame. PB is completely and totally clueless as to how to successfully push this game into the mainstream channels. No where on their website is there a splash page featuring the game, nor is there anywhere on their website showing off properly painted models, multiple views, etc. Every other miniatures producer is doing this. The cool factor of the models and showing it off is a huge factor in drawing players in. None of this exists. They really over looked this and/or do not deem it important. Huge mistake.
I suggested these things to them 5-6 months ago to try to help them. Free advice because I like this thing and want to see it succeed. I tried to give them a sense of what the expectations of miniatures wargamers are from companies for successful games. I was told that KS himself liked my ideas. That was apparently the end of it.
• Support for this game beyond the kickstarter has been pathetic from PB. I understand that people are waiting for Wave 2 and that a massive amount of energy should be devoted to completing it...however, if PB's goal is to make this into a flagship game..then they should treat it as such and we should expect them to support it as such beyond the kickstarter.
They are used to putting out rpg books and no support. There's not much reason to provide a lot of support to rpg games. It's a different kind of hobby. It seems that just are not interested in adjusting how they do things to facilitate a different type of game.
I see a lot of people slamming PB for attempting (albeit poor attempts) anything beyond Wave 2. That's nonsense. Now, I'm not going to defend PB and their horrible handling of any of it. However, anyone that wants or has wanted this game to have longevity should at least support any additions to this game beyond Wave 2.
Yeah, I agree with that. I spent a lot on the exclusives, both because I wanted them and also because I wanted to continue the support the game. Even if they are "working" on Wave 2, that doesn't mean that it takes all their time and they could be also making additional materials available to us to expand the game while we wait, while also generating revenue. The problems for this are twofold: 1) It's understandable that those who are waiting for Wave 2, with all the delays and poor communication and broken promises don't want to invest more in the game until, at the very least, they get Wave 2. 2) It's hard not to be in the first group who don't want to invest more when PB is obviously unwilling to correct their poor communications, broken promises and delays. When they announced the conventional rules and miniatures, I was pretty excited over them. I was even willing to support them by ordering the miniatures through PB instead of GHQ. Then they missed their self-imposed advertised deadline, then they missed their second self-imposed advertised deadline, etc. Then they tell us that they may or may not sell the models, afterall. And we hear from the people who did the work on those rules, for free, because they love the game, that PB had been sitting on them unattended this entire time. Where are their priorities? To make money? To keep their word? To be concerned about their reputation? No. I think they are simply interested in maintaining business as usual. It's a wonder that they tell us they don't understand why they have such little recognition in the greater gaming world.
• Cat's Eye, Comanchero, and Sea Sergeant game pieces. Come on PB...make these in pewter or resin...and sell them with cards. This is easily one of the simplest things you can do and get a new model release by years end. These exist outside of Wave 2..but people will want them.
People do want them, they put the Comanchero up for pre-order then took it down because they really weren't going to make it any time soon and just wanted to gauge interest. They probably look at weak sales of the exclusives and weak preorders for the conventionals and think nobody wants Comancheros. They don't see they are directly responsible for weak sales.
• Booster packs of Special character cards. This is another easy product to release. I have created some special character cards that add to the game play of the game without the need of models. PB should release alternate versions of our heroes to change up strategies and tactics. Maybe a better Rick Hunter card to represent him at the end of the Macross series..a veteran pilot of Skull One. His current card to me, reads as where he was as leader of Vermillion Squad. Get them made and put them into general release. I think a booster pack of special characters from each faction would be a fun little micro purchase.
This is a good idea and previously suggested by others. Even if they were to work on this, which I doubt they would even though it is just printing cards (and they are used to printing things), they would still need to run this by HG.
In fact, just about everything needs HG approval. Good luck to them when it comes to that, because as slow and intractable as PB is, HG's Robotech people are downright lazy.
• I think that we are all in agreement that PB handling of this game sucks...but despite PBs stupidity..if you are a person like me that wants this game to have longevity and stick around..we should be supportive of any efforts from PB to grow the game...or anyone like Mike that adds things to the game.
CaptKaruthors wrote: • I think that we are all in agreement that PB handling of this game sucks...but despite PBs stupidity..if you are a person like me that wants this game to have longevity and stick around..we should be supportive of any efforts from PB to grow the game...or anyone like Mike that adds things to the game. The burden of all this should fall to PB though. If they truly cared for this game as a flagship product...then dammit treat it as such. To think that the two RPG books they are working on right now instead of Robotech is somehow going to generate longer term gains...is really short sighted. Robotech has the chance to be their primary income generator if they chose to treat it as such. Sadly, that isn't the case.
So here we all are...wanting new content, wanting new models, and have to take what we can get from PB or create it ourselves.
Wrong I would rather see PB burn then continue to wait for them, they are a very disfunctional game company that does not deserve to continue to exist.
As to getting new pieces I'm already doing that myself I have been punching out new units left and right and Mike and Jaymz have been punching out Cards and rules, everyone is putting out new stuff for this game but PB, the ones who should be doing it.
and it is because of that, PB does not deserve this game nor any respect or support from anyone.
Also the reason PB did not produce the Comanchero is because it would have cost them much more money to make the molds and such, unlike the other units which GHQ had molds made of already.
• Support for this game beyond the kickstarter has been pathetic from PB. I understand that people are waiting for Wave 2 and that a massive amount of energy should be devoted to completing it...however, if PB's goal is to make this into a flagship game..then they should treat it as such and we should expect them to support it as such beyond the kickstarter. I see a lot of people slamming PB for attempting (albeit poor attempts) anything beyond Wave 2. That's nonsense. Now, I'm not going to defend PB and their horrible handling of any of it. However, anyone that wants or has wanted this game to have longevity should at least support any additions to this game beyond Wave 2.
While I agree with most of what you wrote, I don't think that black and white statement really reflects the various shades of brown that this kickstarter and project have become. I've been a vocal critic of palladium here on dakka (and in the past on the megaversal forums as well as the kickstarter comments, neither of which I have participated in since the unnecessary scale debate). Despite that, I would have supported their efforts to expand the game beyond just wave 2 if they had shown any legitimate progress on wave 2. Unfortuantely, they're using those supposed expansions instead as distractions. They're Emperor Kevin's version of hosting some gladiatorial games to placate the unruly masses instead of dealing with the rampant disease, corruption, starvation, and crime that is really causing the discontent... and he can't even succeed at that even when the gladiators volunteer to fight! Just like with the gencon sham vote, he's screwing up even distracting the most loyal customers despite getting free labor. I'm not "slamming PB for attempting anything beyond Wave 2" but rather slamming palladium for pretending to do something beyond wave 2 as a means to distract folks into ignoring the real issues for a short time.
The way I look at it is that PB expected to handle RRT in the same way they handled their RPG -- spurts of support here, there, whenever it was necessary convenient. You can do that with RPGs, but tabletop gaming doesn't work that way; small skirmish scale games can, but if you wanted to do that way you won't go plastic; sticking to small runs of metal or resin minis would be more suitable.
Once you go into mass production by plastic, you imply a certain level of combat scale in the game. That sort of tabletop wargame is hugely expensive in terms of company support and engagement, and PB is clearly (now, in hindsight) not set up to handle. They are clearly, clearly very out of touch with the wargaming community expectations.
I could have been generous and said ND was expected to front that, but I figured, hey PB probably threw ND down in front of the bus, so no reason not to tar PB with that particular brush.
To get a new, company-level wargame going, you sort of need to have a lot of close customer engagement and quick turnaround on feedback, as well as a constant stream of new products to keep interest going. Palladium never had that, preferring to be "admired/ worshipped" from afar.
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Cypher-xv wrote: At this point I'm not sure I want to support this game anymore. At least when it comes to giving PB any money even if wave two comes out.
You don't need to. If you have pledged for Wave 2, you get what you pledge for (hopefully), and the money is already committed.
If you want more Wave 2 stuff, by all means get them. Because think about it, the core units are all already out in Wave 1, and Wave 2 stuff is mostly specialist units that you're not likely to get more than a handful. Core units are where companies make the most money, and RRT is so dead right now, those Wave 1 stuff can't be moving very much.
Wave 2 comes out, there will be spurt of interest, but let's be honest, PB is not likely going to hire new people to specifically manage/ grow this game -- their track record is way too tight-fisted with money to spend on staffing. So whatever revenue that comes out will be more short term, and that's just going to disappear fairly quickly. Long term, the odds that RRT will grow to be a cash cow is very, very low.
What I'm hoping for, is that Wave 2 gets done (which I think it will... eventually), backers get their gak, PB realises that the steel they cut are worthless since they can't recoup, and then sells the whole rights and material away to someone who's more savvy about promoting and sustaining the game. Or keels over and the same thing happens.
Which leads me to a point I was thinking. By putting up cardboard standees of the units, it's like we've gone back to the good old days of Battletech with their cardboard mechs. Why would I bother to pick up those troublesome-to-assemble minis when I can just print them out by the carton? It strikes me that their interim solution to get stuff out to people to play, they end up cutting (albeit likely slightly) into their own plastic sales in the future.
Wrong I would rather see PB burn then continue to wait for them, they are a very disfunctional game company that does not deserve to continue to exist.
As to getting new pieces I'm already doing that myself I have been punching out new units left and right and Mike and Jaymz have been punching out Cards and rules, everyone is putting out new stuff for this game but PB, the ones who should be doing it.
and it is because of that, PB does not deserve this game nor any respect or support from anyone.
Also the reason PB did not produce the Comanchero is because it would have cost them much more money to make the molds and such, unlike the other units which GHQ had molds made of already.
Thank you for your insight.
GHQ made the convention exclusives...they could have made a comanchero and a cat's eye...at the same time and sold to the general public.
If you are making models of these units...care to share them then with the community? I know I'd like some Gnerls...
PS: find me a small game company that isn't disfunctional on some level
Yes, I understand that. My point was if he's making them and wants to support the game and players, i was hoping they'd be shared among the community. Otherwise, how does it help the people who don't have one...but want one. My modeling/sculpting skills suck..having me make my own is out of the question.
Captkruthors, I agree with everything you posted and think you should post it as a topic everywhere you can, maybe even submit it as an article at Beasts if War.
I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales, a niche of a niche of a niche fanbase/playerbase, and the fact that between outstanding wave 2 figures (battle cry and add ons) people may still be in for a solid chunk of change ($100+).
Hell, the friends that I backed with are in for like $200+ in add ons alone, plus 8 battle cry tiers between us (however you cut it, a substantial amount of money).
Frankly, PB doesn't get off the hook that easily. If they don't want to pay out or deliver, they will get to deal with those 5k+ upset nerds. And while I and many others might not have legal avenues available, something like 4k'ish of the backer base are Americans, so... yeah, good luck with that.
Forar wrote: I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales
I didn't back that one. From what people have commented on in other threads, many complaints seem to have been about the quality of the minis/components? Without going into a four page history, is there an abridged version that kind of lays out the failings of that one? Late? Crappy? Bad rules? What went down?
Forar wrote: I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales, a niche of a niche of a niche fanbase/playerbase, and the fact that between outstanding wave 2 figures (battle cry and add ons) people may still be in for a solid chunk of change ($100+).
Just as an FYI, it took me several months to sell my RDF/UEDF stuff (the rules, templates, etc. from the starter, the UEDF minis, and an extra destroid squad) for half the price of the starter new on sprue. I suspect that is alot different than your experience when you sold stuff shortly after wave 1 arrived.
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Forar wrote: I didn't back that one. From what people have commented on in other threads, many complaints seem to have been about the quality of the minis/components? Without going into a four page history, is there an abridged version that kind of lays out the failings of that one? Late? Crappy? Bad rules? What went down?
All of the above. I didn't back but followed the thread closely (and it almost became the first KS I ever backer). Minis sucked due to PVC material with lots of difficult to remove flash and the minis were IIRC out of scale with each other. I don't recall if it was late but the rulebook got a second version within 6 months of the first KS copies going out (effectively making those copies outdated). There might have even been a third version before complete fulfillment but I'm not completely sure. There might have been issues with warped tiles as well. I get all the bad kickstarters confused now. Some folks expected CMON zombie game (can't recall the name) style skyrocketing secondary market values but instead the core box was selling online at half price within a year instead. There were some clear "invisible" minis that folks liked though and the bases got some praise.
Without going into a four page history, is there an abridged version that kind of lays out the failings of that one? Late? Crappy? Bad rules? What went down?
Forar wrote: I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales, a niche of a niche of a niche fanbase/playerbase, and the fact that between outstanding wave 2 figures (battle cry and add ons) people may still be in for a solid chunk of change ($100+).
Hell, the friends that I backed with are in for like $200+ in add ons alone, plus 8 battle cry tiers between us (however you cut it, a substantial amount of money).
Frankly, PB doesn't get off the hook that easily. If they don't want to pay out or deliver, they will get to deal with those 5k+ upset nerds. And while I and many others might not have legal avenues available, something like 4k'ish of the backer base are Americans, so... yeah, good luck with that.
My point with that comment is sell it off now while it's still worth something if that's what you are planning to do. From a legal standpoint, nobody is getting their money back. Period. Thinking that way is wishful thinking at best. Any and all costs to fight a legal battle will net the people that will sue...nothing other than the satisfaction of potentially ending the company...or ending it all together. Any money that will be left from Palladium will be to pay for legal fees, closing up shop, debt owed to banks/ creditors, etc. It's like those class action lawsuits...your cut after everything amounts to like $20 after the settlement pays for money to lawyers, and everything else..because backers are small fish. Frankly, going that route is a no win situation and at this point, anyone wanting to jump ship should do it now, sell their stuff for whatever they can get for it while time is on there side. If that's how they feel. Because if they wait...and if, in fact, a lawsuit vs. PB sticks...your models will have no dollar value. at. all. So what's it going to be? Hang on to them and hope? Or get as much of your money back now? I can totally understand the backers plight...but if they think they are getting their money back by lawsuits...that's wishful thinking...but I'm not going to discourage them from trying. Just don't expect you'll get refunded anything. If I was a backer that was dissatisfied I'd just simply sell it...and chalk it up to a bad experience. The money is gone and has been spent...I'll never get it all back regardless...and I can always make more money. :shrug: That's the realist in me. My gut tells me that Wave 2 will get done at some point. The timeline will just be longer than anyone has the stomach for unfortunately...and the game will be irrelevant by then because of PB not doing what I originally posted about. They are not supporting the game as a flagship game and never have. That was their most fatal mistake in all of this. I however, will still support any attempt to keep the game going as it deserves a chance to exist and I will still support any efforts (even crappy ones) to release additional stuff beyond Wave 2 by PB because it allows me to further enjoy the game. I'm loving the Female Power armor...and I'm glad I bought two full units worth of convention exclusive models to pull that off.
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Joyboozer wrote: Captkruthors, I agree with everything you posted and think you should post it as a topic everywhere you can, maybe even submit it as an article at Beasts if War.
I've made posts like this in other forums as well...even on their own website forum. Nobody is really listening. As for writing an article...that requires good writing skills and time. Neither of which I have. If someone wants to take my bullet points and do their own article based on those bullet points and ideas...they can have at it. My focus is playing the game, enjoying the game, and getting others to follow suit. Like I said, I already got 4 new people playing beyond myself and my friend...so that's a start. The more people I can turn on to the game the better the Robotech community gets in my area.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As I've said before, if PB won't deliver, I see no reason they should exist. Simple as that.
As for the existing product, it will be liquidated for pennies on the dollar - same as today.
But we will at least have the satisfaction of seeing a fraud, a liar, a charlatan made destitute and bankrupt, as his final legacy.
And it's not like other Macross models won't be available.
Great. Meanwhile guys like me will see a game they enjoy end. Awesome. I'm not in it for just the models. I'm in it for the game itself. It's a good game...I'd even say it's a great game (despite some minor flaws). I like Robotech. A lot. I like the fact that there is now a game for Robotech that's a wargame..not an RPG or video game. If I wanted just models to build and look at...there are plenty of options out there from other model companies that produce better models for display. I don't need a lawsuit to get "revenge" or get "even" as a means of feeling better. Any and all misery will be brought on by PB and PB only. They don't need a lawsuit to doom them at this point...they are doing just fine doing that themselves it seems :shrug:
warboss wrote: Just as an FYI, it took me several months to sell my RDF/UEDF stuff (the rules, templates, etc. from the starter, the UEDF minis, and an extra destroid squad) for half the price of the starter new on sprue. I suspect that is alot different than your experience when you sold stuff shortly after wave 1 arrived.
An FYI to others, of course. I spent a couple of months selling my stuff off as well. Kept a bit less than 1 Battle Cry worth, sold the rest off on secondary markets. Made back a good portion of the money I spent, but the 3 BC's worth of Wave 2 and my add ons still amount for a considerable chunk of change.
Which I may or may not ever see, that I came to terms with long ago, before anyone bothers to point it out. That won't stop me from continuing to be a thorn in PB's side with little but the facts and history on my side. I'd rather they finish things off one way or another, but hey, as far as hobbies go, it entertains me enough to banter with ladies and gents around the internet about shared terrible service.
CaptKaruthors wrote: My point with that comment is sell it off now while it's still worth something if that's what you are planning to do. From a legal standpoint, nobody is getting their money back. Period. Thinking that way is wishful thinking at best. Any and all costs to fight a legal battle will net the people that will sue...nothing other than the satisfaction of potentially ending the company...or ending it all together. Any money that will be left from Palladium will be to pay for legal fees, closing up shop, debt owed to banks/ creditors, etc. It's like those class action lawsuits...your cut after everything amounts to like $20 after the settlement pays for money to lawyers, and everything else..because backers are small fish. Frankly, going that route is a no win situation and at this point, anyone wanting to jump ship should do it now, sell their stuff for whatever they can get for it while time is on there side. If that's how they feel. Because if they wait...and if, in fact, a lawsuit vs. PB sticks...your models will have no dollar value. at. all. So what's it going to be? Hang on to them and hope? Or get as much of your money back now? I can totally understand the backers plight...but if they think they are getting their money back by lawsuits...that's wishful thinking...but I'm not going to discourage them from trying. Just don't expect you'll get refunded anything. If I was a backer that was dissatisfied I'd just simply sell it...and chalk it up to a bad experience. The money is gone and has been spent...I'll never get it all back regardless...and I can always make more money. :shrug: That's the realist in me. My gut tells me that Wave 2 will get done at some point. The timeline will just be longer than anyone has the stomach for unfortunately...and the game will be irrelevant by then because of PB not doing what I originally posted about. They are not supporting the game as a flagship game and never have. That was their most fatal mistake in all of this. I however, will still support any attempt to keep the game going as it deserves a chance to exist and I will still support any efforts (even crappy ones) to release additional stuff beyond Wave 2 by PB because it allows me to further enjoy the game. I'm loving the Female Power armor...and I'm glad I bought two full units worth of convention exclusive models to pull that off.
Despite what my flag is reporting, I am Canadian, not American (must be logging in through a VPN at work too often or something), so I'm not 'getting my money back' in a litigation sense either way. You also seem to be ascribing far more to my motives and actions than I've remotely stated. Kindly don't do that. Perhaps you might want to read through this thread and really get a sense of where things have gone over the last 5 months before Telling Us Like It Is, or perhaps even do that, AND the nearly 2 years worth of pages we generated in the original thread. This issue has been going on for a very long time, and there is a very interesting (and occasionally entertaining) sense of dawning and palpable horror. PB got plenty of benefit of the doubt back in 2013, and even some in 2014, but as the delays built, the model renders/prototypes showed, and the excuses/bus throwing grew, they lost a lot of that.
As I just said, I sold off most of my wave 1. My friends and I received over 500 figures worth of sprues, and of those over 200 were mine. I kept around 1/4 of them, and have built 12. My point about competing with a dwindling user base and CSI sales is that efforts to recoup costs may well be a ship that has sailed. I made back some funding undercutting even CSI, but I can't imagine it'd even be that easy nearly a year later, especially not with another round of Black Friday sales looming a mere 3 weeks away.
Also, if you've got the game you want, great, but if the fact that you had to drop $130'ish plus shipping just to field 6 FPA isn't a warning sign, I don't know what is. Going to plastic is supposed to be the cost effective option when done in bulk, if the only way they can feasibly do these figures in a timely fashion is by charging people $20 per figure (more than most X-Wing pre-built/pre-painted units, mind you), then clearly someone fethed up something bad here.
So hey, welcome to the party, but before you Drop Some Knowledge About Litigation, you might want to read up on the matter a bit more, because while that's an emphasis for some folks (and it's been going on long enough frankly we egg them on just to see them finally make a move), it's a larger matter than simply 'oh, another bunch of whiny backers'.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Great. Meanwhile guys like me will see a game they enjoy end. Awesome. I'm not in it for just the models. I'm in it for the game itself. It's a good game...I'd even say it's a great game (despite some minor flaws). I like Robotech. A lot. I like the fact that there is now a game for Robotech that's a wargame..not an RPG or video game. If I wanted just models to build and look at...there are plenty of options out there from other model companies that produce better models for display. I don't need a lawsuit to get "revenge" or get "even" as a means of feeling better. Any and all misery will be brought on by PB and PB only. They don't need a lawsuit to doom them at this point...they are doing just fine doing that themselves it seems :shrug:
PB being wiped from existence would have what effect on that? The minis will still be available, whether alternative manufacturers of Macross minis, or, quite likely, unopened packages on the secondary market for years to come.
PB will not produce anything more for this game - as you yourself said, the money is gone. Anything that happens for this game from this point forward will involve the hobbyists out there - whether it's Mike producing rules for existing miniatures or Rick actually going through the trouble of making his own Invid minis.
If they're never going to come out with wave two (admittedly not your position, Karuthors), what harm is there in suing them and just hastening the inevitable? In the end, Palladium doesn't come to your house to grab your minis back and you wouldn't have gotten wave 2 regardless. The only effect a lawsuit would have in this case is getting Palladium to admit in 2016 that they're officially screwing us over instead of waiting till 2019. In the meantime, you get to enjoy games with your existing minis and whatever fanmade stuff comes out that you get unaffected by the result.
CaptKaruthors wrote: My point with that comment is sell it off now while it's still worth something if that's what you are planning to do. From a legal standpoint, nobody is getting their money back. Period. Thinking that way is wishful thinking at best. Any and all costs to fight a legal battle will net the people that will sue...nothing other than the satisfaction of potentially ending the company...or ending it all together. Any money that will be left from Palladium will be to pay for legal fees, closing up shop, debt owed to banks/ creditors, etc. It's like those class action lawsuits...your cut after everything amounts to like $20 after the settlement pays for money to lawyers, and everything else..because backers are small fish.
While that'd be true of a class action, early inidvidual suits, especially if handled personally or pro-bono by a friend/relation MAY see some return on their money. PM might settle, especially if it's in the average range ($260 or so). That'd probably end in a run on the company as people try to get theirs out before it goes bankrupt, but to say noone can possibly get a return, especially if there's a settlement with an NDA attached, rather than PB fighting to the desperate end. Is it selfish? Sure. But that's the way this kind of thing works.
CaptKaruthors wrote: My gut tells me that Wave 2 will get done at some point. The timeline will just be longer than anyone has the stomach for unfortunately...and the game will be irrelevant by then because of PB not doing what I originally posted about.
If that's the case, then PB are probably better off NOT doing Wave 2. If the game's going to be irrelevant, and a commercial failure, then why bother continuing development? Kevin isn't going to change the way he operates, so your list of changes to make stuff isn't going to get applied. If the timeline is "longer than anyone has the stomach for", and PB's communication doesn't improve, and right quick, then someone's going to pull the trigger just from spite. Because I'd bet my house that the money to complete Wave 2 exceeds the money remaining from funding.
You mentioned in your post that the money's spent. But it's hard to take that, and then accept the premise that they should still support PB, when they've got nothing but promises that they'll get anything back. As the others before me have said, if the money's gone, and Wave 2 can't or won't eventuate, then PB don't deserve to survive. As much as you like the game, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the current status quo, and PB being dead. Fans doing work, and no new product.
Heck, if PB died, then it might actually speed things up. Mike would have had the Conventional Forces stuff out months ago. I believe the Blast Rules were sitting at PB for longer. Not having to go through the multi-stage approval process for every little thing might make it more efficient, and have the upside of Mike and Jaymz not get frustrated to the point of "feth it, I'm out". And they're not the only ones involved that have thrown in the towel because of the entrenched intransigence of Palladium.
And it's not as if company death is the end of a game. Sure, for some games, that's it. But off the top of my head, Epic and Bloodbowl, and have survived the death of their support. And other games, like Warzone, have seen the death of the company as well, and seen it reborn under a new management. Granted, none of these games are going gangbusters, but they're doing at least as well as RRT under PB management. Heck, I can find significant support for any of them online. Much more than I can for RRT. Heck, I see more people playing Silent Death at any single GenCon in the last ten years, than has been reported of all RRT tournaments to date. So, maybe moving on is the best thing for the game itself.
You have to remember to that, despite WRRDs insitence there were others interested in doing a robotech miniatures game, just not with Palladium involved.
Him taking it to Palladium and them once again squatting on the license killed that off completey.
These were people with years of experience in manufacture and logistics.Palladium have zero interest in doing anymore than what they were doing, they dont want to grow, that just means more work ad being open to more criticism.
They couldn't care less if this game succeeds, they just want to move the stock they have on hand.
And it's not as if company death is the end of a game.
If PB died, someone would buy the RRT molds and IP, just like D&D survived TSR. By many measures WotC / Hasbro is turning out to be a better steward of D&D than TSR ever was.
Of course, in that case PB would have to disclose to the world which resources they had actually managed to produce and the state of the things that hadn't been...
Merijeek wrote: Of course, in that case PB would have to disclose to the world which resources they had actually managed to produce and the state of the things that hadn't been...
Don't worry.
Wayne will get them that info soon.
While we're on that note, let's see what the board says!
Days since the last update: 30
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **119**
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 250
Days until the end of Q2 2016: 238 (current target)
Days until Gencon 2016: 271
Days until the end of 2016: 422
They have been silent on the status of Wave 2 for longer than they have left to produce wave 2. That remains highly amusing to me.
Despite what my flag is reporting, I am Canadian, not American (must be logging in through a VPN at work too often or something), so I'm not 'getting my money back' in a litigation sense either way.
I'm well aware that you are canadian. I've seen your posts on several forums. This isn't the only forum I frequent.
You also seem to be ascribing far more to my motives and actions than I've remotely stated. Kindly don't do that.
If you think that's what I'm doing then you are barking up the wrong tree. I don't care what you are doing either via a lawsuit..supporting a lawsuit, or even your posts on how many days have passed by (which by the way is interesting to see how much time palladium is wasting on not getting this done). Basically, carry on with what you are doing. I don't care.
Perhaps you might want to read through this thread and really get a sense of where things have gone over the last 5 months before Telling Us Like It Is, or perhaps even do that, AND the nearly 2 years worth of pages we generated in the original thread. This issue has been going on for a very long time, and there is a very interesting (and occasionally entertaining) sense of dawning and palpable horror. PB got plenty of benefit of the doubt back in 2013, and even some in 2014, but as the delays built, the model renders/prototypes showed, and the excuses/bus throwing grew, they lost a lot of that.
Um...I don't need to because I've already have done it. I've been following everything regarding this game since it was announced and the KS campaign started. I'm well aware of the goings on since then. You seem to think that suddenly I've come across this thread midway through or something. That isn't the case. I've lurked and contributed to many threads on this subject. The problem is that the amount of negativity about the game isn't helping. By now, we all get it. PB sucks, the whole situation sucks, they screwed over backers, they screwed over people like Mike who were willing to contribute to the game, etc. While it gives us a sense of catharticism..it really isn't helping to build a solid community to play the game.
As I just said, I sold off most of my wave 1. My friends and I received over 500 figures worth of sprues, and of those over 200 were mine. I kept around 1/4 of them, and have built 12. My point about competing with a dwindling user base and CSI sales is that efforts to recoup costs may well be a ship that has sailed. I made back some funding undercutting even CSI, but I can't imagine it'd even be that easy nearly a year later, especially not with another round of Black Friday sales looming a mere 3 weeks away.
I'm glad you were able to get some of your money back. That to me is the best solution for people that have given up and want to get out of the game and dealings with PB.
Also, if you've got the game you want, great, but if the fact that you had to drop $130'ish plus shipping just to field 6 FPA isn't a warning sign, I don't know what is.
If it costs me $132 to field two units of 3 female power armor, I don't care. I'll pay it to get the units I want/ need to play this game and have some unit diversity in my zentraedi army. I'm not interested in using paper proxies. I want the game pieces. Hell, $132 is cheap compared to the amount of stuff I've bought for 40k. Overall, this game is far more economical...regardless of the $22 price tag for the Con Exclusives...LOL.
Going to plastic is supposed to be the cost effective option when done in bulk, if the only way they can feasibly do these figures in a timely fashion is by charging people $20 per figure (more than most X-Wing pre-built/pre-painted units, mind you), then clearly someone fethed up something bad here.
Going to do this entire game in plastic was a dumb idea from the start. Doing the core units in plastic makes sense. For the other stuff that's primarily in Wave 2? Not at all. Maybe if there was some demand in the future...then sure...but the units in Wave 2 aren't used in large enough numbers in the game to justify spending the capital to make them all in plastic. Hell Eldar aspect warriors have been around since 1994 and GW hasn't deemed it necessary to make them in plastic other than Dire Avengers. It isn't a priority when the units aren't fielded in great numbers. It's not realistic for a small company like PB to do it all in plastic. That was their first biggest mistake. Most people play the game at 300pts. that means...most people are only going to have one..maybe two units of elite core choices...and that's it. The MAC 2? Maybe only one will ever be fielded...in a 300pt game. So the amount they'd sell is far to small for a plastic production run where the MOQs would be too costly. They should have made all or most of wave 2 in Resin or Pewter from the beginning...even stating as such during the actual KS campaign. That way, people would have known what they were in for. Unfortunately, PB has no idea on how to develop a war-game..and Ninja Division certainly didn't help in talking them into alternatives..at least that we know of.
So hey, welcome to the party, but before you Drop Some Knowledge About Litigation, you might want to read up on the matter a bit more, because while that's an emphasis for some folks (and it's been going on long enough frankly we egg them on just to see them finally make a move), it's a larger matter than simply 'oh, another bunch of whiny backers'.
I don't need to read up on anything. I've read every thread about legal matters regarding this Wave 2 debacle....and most lawyer friends I know have said that the backers aren't going to get a dime...OR if they are going to get any money at all...it will be not for the amount in which they paid in...in fact...it will be much, much less. So at that point, why bother? Just sell your stuff now and recoup as much money as you can. Otherwise, you can wait out a lawsuit..and roll the dice to see if you get any money back at all. For me, if I was in the backers shoes...I'd take what money I could get for what I'd sell. It's far more likely I'll get money in that gamble than I would going the route of a lawsuit.
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If PB died, someone would buy the RRT molds and IP, just like D&D survived TSR. By many measures WotC / Hasbro is turning out to be a better steward of D&D than TSR ever was.
Harmony Gold is too uptight about their Robotech IP. I don't think WotC or Hasbro would waste their time with it.
Mospaeda. Looks good, too. So do the Alphas and Betas next to it. Wouldn't mind seeing them close up.
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CaptKaruthors wrote: . I've read every thread about legal matters regarding this Wave 2 debacle....and most lawyer friends I know have said that the backers aren't going to get a dime...OR if they are going to get any money at all...it will be not for the amount in which they paid in...in fact...it will be much, much less. So at that point, why bother?
Because when a business accepts money for a product, they have three choices.
First, they can provide the paid for product.
Second, they can provide a refund.
Third, they can suffer the legal consequences of neither doing the first or the second.
Just because you'll happily throw money at them, whether or not they'll provide a product, doesn't mean the rest of the world should let them live consequence-free. Why you see it as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing when it is no longer producing (prepaid) products...I have no idea.
Wrong I would rather see PB burn then continue to wait for them, they are a very disfunctional game company that does not deserve to continue to exist.
As to getting new pieces I'm already doing that myself I have been punching out new units left and right and Mike and Jaymz have been punching out Cards and rules, everyone is putting out new stuff for this game but PB, the ones who should be doing it.
and it is because of that, PB does not deserve this game nor any respect or support from anyone.
Also the reason PB did not produce the Comanchero is because it would have cost them much more money to make the molds and such, unlike the other units which GHQ had molds made of already.
Thank you for your insight.
GHQ made the convention exclusives...they could have made a comanchero and a cat's eye...at the same time and sold to the general public.
If you are making models of these units...care to share them then with the community? I know I'd like some Gnerls...
PS: find me a small game company that isn't disfunctional on some level
GHQ already had molds made of the other units so they cost them nothing, as to the comanchero it is a unique HG unit that they cannot sell.
as to the Gnerl already have a design but trying to figure out how to reduce its cost since it is a decent sized full model which makes it about $7-8 for one of them.
as to sharing my units? don't think so, the minute I sell, give, trade any of them PB will be able to shut me down not only on sales but also on my pending legal action against them.
Also who said I want to do anything that would help PB? the only thing I want to help them do is shut down so they can no longer screw people over like this.
Forar wrote: I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales, a niche of a niche of a niche fanbase/playerbase, and the fact that between outstanding wave 2 figures (battle cry and add ons) people may still be in for a solid chunk of change ($100+).
Hell, the friends that I backed with are in for like $200+ in add ons alone, plus 8 battle cry tiers between us (however you cut it, a substantial amount of money).
Frankly, PB doesn't get off the hook that easily. If they don't want to pay out or deliver, they will get to deal with those 5k+ upset nerds. And while I and many others might not have legal avenues available, something like 4k'ish of the backer base are Americans, so... yeah, good luck with that.
My point with that comment is sell it off now while it's still worth something if that's what you are planning to do. From a legal standpoint, nobody is getting their money back. Period. Thinking that way is wishful thinking at best. Any and all costs to fight a legal battle will net the people that will sue...nothing other than the satisfaction of potentially ending the company...or ending it all together. Any money that will be left from Palladium will be to pay for legal fees, closing up shop, debt owed to banks/ creditors, etc. It's like those class action lawsuits...your cut after everything amounts to like $20 after the settlement pays for money to lawyers, and everything else..because backers are small fish. Frankly, going that route is a no win situation and at this point, anyone wanting to jump ship should do it now, sell their stuff for whatever they can get for it while time is on there side. If that's how they feel. Because if they wait...and if, in fact, a lawsuit vs. PB sticks...your models will have no dollar value. at. all. So what's it going to be? Hang on to them and hope? Or get as much of your money back now? I can totally understand the backers plight...but if they think they are getting their money back by lawsuits...that's wishful thinking...but I'm not going to discourage them from trying. Just don't expect you'll get refunded anything. If I was a backer that was dissatisfied I'd just simply sell it...and chalk it up to a bad experience. The money is gone and has been spent...I'll never get it all back regardless...and I can always make more money. :shrug: That's the realist in me. My gut tells me that Wave 2 will get done at some point. The timeline will just be longer than anyone has the stomach for unfortunately...and the game will be irrelevant by then because of PB not doing what I originally posted about. They are not supporting the game as a flagship game and never have. That was their most fatal mistake in all of this. I however, will still support any attempt to keep the game going as it deserves a chance to exist and I will still support any efforts (even crappy ones) to release additional stuff beyond Wave 2 by PB because it allows me to further enjoy the game. I'm loving the Female Power armor...and I'm glad I bought two full units worth of convention exclusive models to pull that off.
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Joyboozer wrote: Captkruthors, I agree with everything you posted and think you should post it as a topic everywhere you can, maybe even submit it as an article at Beasts if War.
I've made posts like this in other forums as well...even on their own website forum. Nobody is really listening. As for writing an article...that requires good writing skills and time. Neither of which I have. If someone wants to take my bullet points and do their own article based on those bullet points and ideas...they can have at it. My focus is playing the game, enjoying the game, and getting others to follow suit. Like I said, I already got 4 new people playing beyond myself and my friend...so that's a start. The more people I can turn on to the game the better the Robotech community gets in my area.
Are you a lawyer? I thought not, I do have an attorney who has spelled it out to me the least amount I will get and the most amount I will get, the least is a full refund, the most a full refund plus up to $1,500, my lawyer gets paid seperate from what i'm getting since he'll be sticking PB with his bill.
also as to my pending legal action, it is not revenge but a public service, since it is obvious PB will never learn and refuse to learn they must be removed from the equation as a hazard.
Because when a business accepts money for a product, they have three choices.
First, they can provide the paid for product.
Second, they can provide a refund.
Third, they can suffer the legal consequences of neither doing the first or the second.
Just because you'll happily throw money at them, whether or not they'll provide a product, doesn't mean the rest of the world should let them live consequence-free. Why you see it as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing when it is no longer producing (prepaid) products...I have no idea.
If people want to sue them or pursue legal reparations that's their choice. I'm not going to stop them..but I'm not going to encourage them because quite frankly...whether they are right or not...the money is gone. So if you or anyone else wants to lead a personal crusade to get your money go right ahead. You have my blessing. Just don't be disappointed when it doesn't get you the results you want. That's all I'm saying. Better to sell what you have, get as much money you can back..and move on and chalk it up to a bad experience. That scenario is grounded in more reality than the hopes of a positive lawsuit result. And whether I want to throw money at a product is irrelevant. I told you, I like the game. I'll buy things to play said game. Sorry if my enjoyment of the game somehow annoys you because I would like the game to endure and be relevant. I don't care about how dumb PB is being...they've been that way since forever. This isn't the first PB product I've bought and paid for. I have many of their RPGs and used to play it. I'm fully aware of how bad they do things. The point is: I don't care. I like the game. I want the models to play said game. This game is far cheaper than many other wargames I've played and continue to play. As to seeing as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing because they aren't producing...I don't see it as a flaw. I don't care if you want them to close. That's your right to feel that way. The difference is...you're trying to convince everybody else to feel that way. I'm not trying to stop anyone from pursuing legal action...in fact, I think I've said before that if someone wants to do that go right ahead.
Because when a business accepts money for a product, they have three choices.
First, they can provide the paid for product.
Second, they can provide a refund.
Third, they can suffer the legal consequences of neither doing the first or the second.
Just because you'll happily throw money at them, whether or not they'll provide a product, doesn't mean the rest of the world should let them live consequence-free. Why you see it as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing when it is no longer producing (prepaid) products...I have no idea.
If people want to sue them or pursue legal reparations that's their choice. I'm not going to stop them..but I'm not going to encourage them because quite frankly...whether they are right or not...the money is gone. So if you or anyone else wants to lead a personal crusade to get your money go right ahead. You have my blessing. Just don't be disappointed when it doesn't get you the results you want. That's all I'm saying. Better to sell what you have, get as much money you can back..and move on and chalk it up to a bad experience. That scenario is grounded in more reality than the hopes of a positive lawsuit result. And whether I want to throw money at a product is irrelevant. I told you, I like the game. I'll buy things to play said game. Sorry if my enjoyment of the game somehow annoys you because I would like the game to endure and be relevant. I don't care about how dumb PB is being...they've been that way since forever. This isn't the first PB product I've bought and paid for. I have many of their RPGs and used to play it. I'm fully aware of how bad they do things. The point is: I don't care. I like the game. I want the models to play said game. This game is far cheaper than many other wargames I've played and continue to play. As to seeing as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing because they aren't producing...I don't see it as a flaw. I don't care if you want them to close. That's your right to feel that way. The difference is...you're trying to convince everybody else to feel that way. I'm not trying to stop anyone from pursuing legal action...in fact, I think I've said before that if someone wants to do that go right ahead.
I don't need to convince "everyone". It just takes a few of the right people to be convinced.
Fortunately, your opinion is completely unimportant in the matter.
GHQ already had molds made of the other units so they cost them nothing, as to the comanchero it is a unique HG unit that they cannot sell.
How could they not make a comanchero? I thought I saw preorders being taken for it to gauge interest? Why bother with that? Just make the damn thing. If the rules are solid, people will buy them. The rules mike posted for them..they seem like a unit worth fielding. HG could make it happen if they wanted.
as to the Gnerl already have a design but trying to figure out how to reduce its cost since it is a decent sized full model which makes it about $7-8 for one of them.
as to sharing my units? don't think so, the minute I sell, give, trade any of them PB will be able to shut me down not only on sales but also on my pending legal action against them.
Cool. I'm glad you have the means to make your own models. But what good does it do for the rest of us? What's the point of making them when you would be the only one to have them and use them?
Also who said I want to do anything that would help PB? the only thing I want to help them do is shut down so they can no longer screw people over like this.
My point is you aren't doing anyone any favors. It may seem like it to you. But others don't necessarily share your opinion. PB actions/inaction is doing more than enough to put them to the path of oblivion. They are taking care of that themselves at this point.
Are you a lawyer? I thought not, I do have an attorney who has spelled it out to me the least amount I will get and the most amount I will get, the least is a full refund, the most a full refund plus up to $1,500, my lawyer gets paid seperate from what i'm getting since he'll be sticking PB with his bill.
I never claimed I was. However, I know quite a few that have looked into this and none of them would touch it..as it's chance at a successful result in your favor is a very low percentage. If you can somehow recoup even half of your money...I'll be impressed. I don't think that's likely though. Remember they too have lawyers and PB has been in legal scrapes before. They have experience on their side. I'd rather cut my losses and sell what I have. Better chance at getting some amount of money back.
also as to my pending legal action, it is not revenge but a public service, since it is obvious PB will never learn and refuse to learn they must be removed from the equation as a hazard.
Public service? To whom? You? Not for me. I'm in full agreement that PB sucks at how they run their business, but unlike you...I don't need someone to shut them down to save me from myself. I know what PB is...how they operate. I've dealt with it since 1988 when I first bought TMNT and Other Strangeness. However, for all of their stupid decisions, past and present, etc...I like Robotech and want it to thrive...and yes grow. They are the makers of this game...and most likely will be the ONLY makers of this game. So I'm not too keen on having them close their doors. I'm also interested in several of their RPG titles...closed doors means no more books. I also know several artists that work on those books. Closed doors means they lose work. So no, you are not doing me a public service. Sorry. But if you want to pursue them legally, go right ahead. I'm not going to stop you or anyone else from doing so. That is your right.
GHQ already had molds made of the other units so they cost them nothing, as to the comanchero it is a unique HG unit that they cannot sell.
How could they not make a comanchero? I thought I saw preorders being taken for it to gauge interest? Why bother with that? Just make the damn thing. If the rules are solid, people will buy them. The rules mike posted for them..they seem like a unit worth fielding. HG could make it happen if they wanted.
Because making a new mold would have cost PB lots of money which is one thing they do not want to spend, unless they were guaranteed to make their money back to which the preorders showed that was not the case.
as to the Gnerl already have a design but trying to figure out how to reduce its cost since it is a decent sized full model which makes it about $7-8 for one of them.
as to sharing my units? don't think so, the minute I sell, give, trade any of them PB will be able to shut me down not only on sales but also on my pending legal action against them.
Cool. I'm glad you have the means to make your own models. But what good does it do for the rest of us? What's the point of making them when you would be the only one to have them and use them?
it means I will have my models instead of waiting and thinking PB will make them when they will not. unlike you.
Also who said I want to do anything that would help PB? the only thing I want to help them do is shut down so they can no longer screw people over like this.
My point is you aren't doing anyone any favors. It may seem like it to you. But others don't necessarily share your opinion. PB actions/inaction is doing more than enough to put them to the path of oblivion. They are taking care of that themselves at this point.
well then all PB has to do is refund me my $120 for items not received, its not too hard and very simple and very cost effective, if you feel the way you do you should tell PB to refund me.
Are you a lawyer? I thought not, I do have an attorney who has spelled it out to me the least amount I will get and the most amount I will get, the least is a full refund, the most a full refund plus up to $1,500, my lawyer gets paid seperate from what i'm getting since he'll be sticking PB with his bill.
I never claimed I was. However, I know quite a few that have looked into this and none of them would touch it..as it's chance at a successful result in your favor is a very low percentage. If you can somehow recoup even half of your money...I'll be impressed. I don't think that's likely though. Remember they too have lawyers and PB has been in legal scrapes before. They have experience on their side. I'd rather cut my losses and sell what I have. Better chance at getting some amount of money back.
and thats where I call you a liar, since any attorney would take this case to court its a simple cut and dry violation of the CPA, now getting a lawyer to do the case with no pay until case is resolved is another matter, as to PB having lawyers, don't hold your breath on that one, after the responses the BBB and several state AG's got no lawyers at the helm there.
also as to my pending legal action, it is not revenge but a public service, since it is obvious PB will never learn and refuse to learn they must be removed from the equation as a hazard.
Public service? To whom? You? Not for me. I'm in full agreement that PB sucks at how they run their business, but unlike you...I don't need someone to shut them down to save me from myself. I know what PB is...how they operate. I've dealt with it since 1988 when I first bought TMNT and Other Strangeness. However, for all of their stupid decisions, past and present, etc...I like Robotech and want it to thrive...and yes grow. They are the makers of this game...and most likely will be the ONLY makers of this game. So I'm not too keen on having them close their doors. I'm also interested in several of their RPG titles...closed doors means no more books. I also know several artists that work on those books. Closed doors means they lose work. So no, you are not doing me a public service. Sorry. But if you want to pursue them legally, go right ahead. I'm not going to stop you or anyone else from doing so. That is your right.
I refer you back to my response all PB has to do is refund me my money since if they do that not much I can do.
but on the other hand its fans like you who do a disservice to the public by condoning what PB does and saying its alright, they do it all the time, your probably the kind of person if you saw someone stealing from a store would say nothing even though they steal from the same store everyday. or better yet seeing a little old lay trying to drag a bag of groceries up her steps everyday and do nothing. that is being a pathetic disgrace of a human being.
GHQ already had molds made of the other units so they cost them nothing, as to the comanchero it is a unique HG unit that they cannot sell.
How could they not make a comanchero? I thought I saw preorders being taken for it to gauge interest? Why bother with that? Just make the damn thing. If the rules are solid, people will buy them. The rules mike posted for them..they seem like a unit worth fielding.
They seem to be taking no risks. The comanchero would be a robotech custom made specific design and cost them likely as a company as it doesn't sound like they've gotten GHQ to foot the bill. The other stuff consisted of existing models so the only cost was the robotech specific packaging. That of course doesn't excuse them from not publishing the rules they got for free from fanfriends like Mike since all they had to do was format it robotech style. They've instead chosen to do nothing on all fronts practically except for the KS/convention "exclusives" that have been as ubiquitous as you can get recently.
I don't need to convince "everyone". It just takes a few of the right people to be convinced.
Why? Let people make their own choices on whether or not they will buy into the game or not...or whether or not they'll support PBs efforts. That's their own business. It's like all the donkey caves that try to constantly tell people to stop playing GW games or tell new people that are interested in playing them to stay away. Let them find out for themselves.
Fortunately, your opinion is completely unimportant in the matter.
And so is yours. Are you even involved in playing this game on a regular basis? Are your friends invested as heavily into the game as you? Have you recruited new players? No? I am, so are my friends and the new players i've recruited...and I want to continue the growth of a player base. You trying to convince people to shut down PB runs contrary to my efforts. Hypothetical: What happens if a lawsuit miraculously goes to court and rules in PBs favor? Then what?
I don't need to convince "everyone". It just takes a few of the right people to be convinced.
Why? Let people make their own choices on whether or not they will buy into the game or not...or whether or not they'll support PBs efforts. That's their own business. It's like all the donkey caves that try to constantly tell people to stop playing GW games or tell new people that are interested in playing them to stay away. Let them find out for themselves.
Fortunately, your opinion is completely unimportant in the matter.
And so is yours. Are you even involved in playing this game on a regular basis? Are your friends invested as heavily into the game as you? Have you recruited new players? No? I am, so are my friends and the new players i've recruited...and I want to continue the growth of a player base. You trying to convince people to shut down PB runs contrary to my efforts. Hypothetical: What happens if a lawsuit miraculously goes to court and rules in PBs favor? Then what?
so let me get this right if your parents got an e-mail from a Nigerian prince asking for money so they can get a larger chunk of money you would say nothing as they sent the money? I rest my case.
it means I will have my models instead of waiting and thinking PB will make them when they will not. unlike you.
Awesome. So why would I want to play against a person who could field units I could not?
well then all PB has to do is refund me my $120 for items not received, its not too hard and very simple and very cost effective, if you feel the way you do you should tell PB to refund me.
I've already stated here or elsewhere, I don't remember which forum I posted that in..that PB should do exactly what you suggest. Truth be told, that would save them a ton of headaches. But if they aren't they probably have good reasons not to. From their end they say they are working on wave 2...and until there is irrefutable proof to the contrary..they won't refund anyone's money.
and thats where I call you a liar, since any attorney would take this case to court its a simple cut and dry violation of the CPA, now getting a lawyer to do the case with no pay until case is resolved is another matter, as to PB having lawyers, don't hold your breath on that one, after the responses the BBB and several state AG's got no lawyers at the helm there.
Lolz. I'm a liar? Ok. You just gave one of the very reasons why a lawyer wouldn't take the case...LOL. I guess I'm lying then. Look, this case is small peanuts..and isn't worth the investment of a good lawyers time...that is unless it was something that he himself had a personal stake in..or saw it as some moral crusade to pursue. Look at how long the Chapterhouse case took...and that was a far bigger case with a bigger player. As to PB not having lawyers? Think again buddy. They have at least a lawyer. That I'm certain of. They wouldn't be able to make the licensing deals without one...nor would this be their first legal battle. How long have you been aware of PBs existance...and how in tune with their history are you? Feel free to continue your legal pursuits. I will be the first one to admit I'm wrong if things all work out in your favor in this legal matter. In fact, I'll sing your praises.
but on the other hand its fans like you who do a disservice to the public by condoning what PB does and saying its alright, they do it all the time, your probably the kind of person if you saw someone stealing from a store would say nothing even though they steal from the same store everyday. or better yet seeing a little old lay trying to drag a bag of groceries up her steps everyday and do nothing. that is being a pathetic disgrace of a human being.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Spare me the liberal appeal to emotion. I'm not condoning anything they are doing. Their bad decision making will ultimately make their business fail or it won't. Until that time, I will buy the products I like from them. I don't need you or anyone else to "save me" from PB books. I've repeatedly said PB has handled this Robotech thing like a bunch of schmucks. However, they will fail on their own. They don't need YOU or ME to help them with it. I like the game. I plan on buying things for the game I like. If it reaches a point where I no longer have faith in their product...I spend my dollars elsewhere. I vote with my wallet. Somehow you think that you have the moral authority to tell people how bad PB is and that we should all listen and if we don't we are horrible people. That's ridiculous...and your examples of casting me as some sort of hater of old people or supporter of thieves makes you look silly. Hypothetical: What happens if Wave 2 is released in Q2 of 2016? Will you withdraw your legal case and admit you were wrong?
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so let me get this right if your parents got an e-mail from a Nigerian prince asking for money so they can get a larger chunk of money you would say nothing as they sent the money? I rest my case.
First of all, this is stupid. Secondly, my parents can do what they want. It's none of my business.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Lolz. I'm a liar? Ok. You just gave one of the very reasons why a lawyer wouldn't take the case...LOL. I guess I'm lying then. Look, this case is small peanuts..and isn't worth the investment of a good lawyers time...that is unless it was something that he himself had a personal stake in..or saw it as some moral crusade to pursue. Look at how long the Chapterhouse case took...and that was a far bigger case with a bigger player. As to PB not having lawyers? Think again buddy. They have at least a lawyer. That I'm certain of. They wouldn't be able to make the licensing deals without one...nor would this be their first legal battle. How long have you been aware of PBs existance...and how in tune with their history are you? Feel free to continue your legal pursuits. I will be the first one to admit I'm wrong if things all work out in your favor in this legal matter. In fact, I'll sing your praises.
you didn't read any of those responses of Kevin's to the BBB or the AG did you? cause if Kevvy boy had a lawyer he would have not said half the stuff he did he essentially crucified himself with his responses, and faced with those responses any lawyer he can find will charge him an arm and a leg and tell him to settle, Kevin screwed himself in his responses.
as to wave 2, any evidence that it will come out other then Kevin saying it will? didn't think so, yet much more proof it will not.
you didn't read any of those responses of Kevin's to the BBB or the AG did you? cause if Kevvy boy had a lawyer he would have not said half the stuff he did he essentially crucified himself with his responses, and faced with those responses any lawyer he can find will charge him an arm and a leg and tell him to settle, Kevin screwed himself in his responses.
Yes I read his BBB responses and the follow up to the AG. While he sounded like a buffoon there isn't anything in there that implicates him in any sort of fraudulent activity. It's still speculative at best. This isn't their first legal battle that they've waged. Rest assured they will have a lawyer at the ready...obviously you haven't learned that PB will lawyer up any chance they can. LOL. Hell, just look at their draconian writer/ artist submission forms...
as to wave 2, any evidence that it will come out other then Kevin saying it will? didn't think so, yet much more proof it will not.
No I'm actually talking about if Wave 2 actually is released. i.e. when we actually see it arriving to these shores. What happens if that becomes a reality? Will you admit you were wrong? Nobody thought Rifts: Lemuria would see the light of day...and low and behold...it was made.
you didn't read any of those responses of Kevin's to the BBB or the AG did you? cause if Kevvy boy had a lawyer he would have not said half the stuff he did he essentially crucified himself with his responses, and faced with those responses any lawyer he can find will charge him an arm and a leg and tell him to settle, Kevin screwed himself in his responses.
Yes I read his BBB responses and the follow up to the AG. While he sounded like a buffoon there isn't anything in there that implicates him in any sort of fraudulent activity. It's still speculative at best. This isn't their first legal battle that they've waged. Rest assured they will have a lawyer at the ready...obviously you haven't learned that PB will lawyer up any chance they can. LOL. Hell, just look at their draconian writer/ artist submission forms...
as to wave 2, any evidence that it will come out other then Kevin saying it will? didn't think so, yet much more proof it will not.
No I'm actually talking about if Wave 2 actually is released. i.e. when we actually see it arriving to these shores. What happens if that becomes a reality? Will you admit you were wrong? Nobody thought Rifts: Lemuria would see the light of day...and low and behold...it was made.
if Wave 2 does not show up by the end of this year it will not show up at all, reason being PB will cease as a company and no amount of lawyers will save them, end of story.
You're thinking that PB is out of business as of Jan. 1, 2016?
no they will be too busy with lawyers and such to do anything till they are fined out of business, since a lawsuit is not the only avenue i'm going, been busy drawing up the drafts to send to a few government agencies using the info PB replied with and then some.
Like I said I will see PB out of business before they steal another dime from the unwary.
if Wave 2 does not show up by the end of this year it will not show up at all, reason being PB will cease as a company and no amount of lawyers will save them, end of story.
Lolz. Highly unlikely...about as unlikely as the Cleveland Browns winning a Super Bowl in our lifetimes...But you are more than welcome to believe that. Your chances at selling your Robotech models to recoup your money is a safer bet.
if Wave 2 does not show up by the end of this year it will not show up at all, reason being PB will cease as a company and no amount of lawyers will save them, end of story.
Lolz. Highly unlikely...about as unlikely as the Cleveland Browns winning a Super Bowl in our lifetimes...But you are more than welcome to believe that. Your chances at selling your Robotech models to recoup your money is a safer bet.
very likely and selling my stuff will not stop PB me proceeding with legal matters will.
Who here will admit they are wrong if PB releases Wave 2?
If wave 2 doesn't get released...and the company folds...I will be the first to admit I'm wrong...right here on Dakka. My gut tells me that Wave 2 will be released. It has to. Everything rides on it.
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very likely and selling my stuff will not stop PB me proceeding with legal matters will.
Who here will admit they are wrong if PB releases Wave 2?
If wave 2 doesn't get released...and the company folds...I will be the first to admit I'm wrong...right here on Dakka. My gut tells me that Wave 2 will be released. It has to. Everything rides on it.
well I won't have to admit it since PB will never release wave 2, first and foremost they will not be around long enough to do it, secondly its not financially sound because of what PB has done, it would bankrupt them and then some since they do not have the money to do it, you keep ignoring that fact, it will cost them a serious amount of money to do wave 2, money they will not be able to recoup due to the lack of interest in the game because of PB's disaster handling of this project.
Who here will admit they are wrong if PB releases Wave 2?
If wave 2 doesn't get released...and the company folds...I will be the first to admit I'm wrong...right here on Dakka. My gut tells me that Wave 2 will be released. It has to. Everything rides on it.
You mean ever? Like in 2034? And that would count as being "wrong"? I hope you're not adopting that Palladium style openended timeywimey delivery date style. I'll admit I was wrong if they come out with it by October 2013... I mean Dec 2013... I mean Jan/Feb 2014... I mean Gencon 2014 after backers get it... I mean end of year 2015... of wait... none of those apply any more (and I probably missed a few inbetween). l will, however, admit I was wrong about them never getting it out if they get it out Q1 2016 as per the current bowling ball rolling down the mountain working delivery date.
You have no proof that they do not have the money to complete wave 2. It's all speculation...not fact. Unless you have access to their financials... you don't know. While I'm certain they don't have the money to complete it...I still think they will find a way. They have to. Everything rides on it. I also think they have arrived at an alternative way to produce wave 2. So the question still stands: Will you admit you were wrong if it gets released and PB endures? If the opposite is true...and it turns out that it doesn't get released...and they do in fact fold as a company...I will admit I'm wrong.
CaptKaruthors wrote: You have no proof that they do not have the money to complete wave 2. It's all speculation...not fact. Unless you have access to their financials... you don't know. While I'm certain they don't have the money to complete it...I still think they will find a way. They have to. Everything rides on it. I also think they have arrived at an alternative way to produce wave 2. So the question still stands: Will you admit you were wrong if it gets released and PB endures? If the opposite is true...and it turns out that it doesn't get released...and they do in fact fold as a company...I will admit I'm wrong.
you act as if PB cares, they do not, they are just trying to hold off people suing them and the government going after them, they as much as admitted they were already out of money when they posted what they had spent, how much shipping was and how it was costing them more money then they expected.
PB has no money nor do they have any intention of producing wave 2, they have had the designs for wave 2 that ND gave them for about a year now or so, the fact you refuse to even consider this is more of a joke then anything.
We have ND saying they gave PB the designs last year, we have PB even admitting they have had the designs for that amount of time, and yet they have done nothing.
PB is a joke of a company and should be brought down before they try to screw over other innocent people.
also the part where you say "I still think they will find a way. They have to. Everything rides on it." is the cry of the desperate.
I just got Palladium's weekly spam mail.. here is the pertinent Robotech part:
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Nothing new to report at this time. A Wave Two release in the second Quarter of 2016 would be ideal. In fact, we’re planning to use its release as an opportunity to relaunch the game line with more support and an organized play program.
We’re a small company and have to juggle our workload and production schedules. Right now we are finishing a couple of RPG books, but in a few weeks, we’ll be turning our full attention back to Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Keep the faith!
Forar, I think Palladium is paying attention to your countdowns! Q2 2016 is now "ideal", not realistic or probable, but just "ideal".. you know.. like wishing on a star or blowing out birthday candles! No news on the conventional rules or paper minis unless that is what they're referring to above as "more support". Mike, I guess your rules (or whatever they'll eventually become) may see the official light of day one year after you submitted them along with paper standees of wave 2 minis.
Nothing new to report at this time. A Wave Two release in the second Quarter of 2016 would be ideal. In fact, we’re planning to use its release as an opportunity to relaunch the game line with more support and an organized play program.
We’re a small company and have to juggle our workload and production schedules. Right now we are finishing a couple of RPG books, but in a few weeks, we’ll be turning our full attention back to Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Keep the faith!
Pretty weak, but not unexpected. They said last week that they weren't doing jack this week on anything but the RPG books.
Calling for faith is a bit rich, but it's the kind of bs I expect. And faith is what is needed, as the Wiki definition states "Faith is complete confidence or trust in a person or thing; or a belief not based on proof.". So, at least he used the right word.
The one thing to point out, with nothing done this week, we can't really expect a KSU, and it's been 4 weeks since that was updated. If the books take "a few weeks", this could be the longest absence of Updates in a while. So much for "trying to do more".
I will be shocked if PB actually manages to produce and deliver Wave 2.
So far, we have seen NOTHING that would suggest Wave 2 tooling is underway in any way, shape or form. No test shots, no piles of sprues or models, nothing.
And pretending that the tooling gets done, there's still print & packaging, shipping, etc. Nothing there, either.
No models, no paper, nothing.
That said, if my FPAs, my Supers, my Monster actually appear, sure I'll admit I was wrong.
But I'm not inclined to give them until the heat death of the universe. I'm with Asterios. If Kevin isn't blowing smoke, we should see something substantial and factually verifiable by the end of the year.
That said, I think Kevin is full of gak, so I hope Asterios feths him and feths him hard. I hope that he can pierce the corporate veil and take that fether for every penny that he stole.
Calling for faith is a bit rich, but it's the kind of bs I expect. And faith is what is needed, as the Wiki definition states "Faith is complete confidence or trust in a person or thing; or a belief not based on proof.". So, at least he used the right word.
Indeed, faith is appropriate. Another parallel would be them accepting donations of time (free volunteer rules writing! demoing! packing/shipping!) and money (passing the grab bag/christmas surprise package collection plate).
I'm sure it would be ideal. Having a pile of product in hand one month before Gencon would let them ship out to North American backers (hahahahaha maybe), sell at the event without having to compete with CSI, fire off a bunch of pallets to distribution immediately (hell, right before the convention even), and then maybe get around to shipping to the rest of the backers they deem worthy.
I continue to find humour that they've narrowed it down to 'maybe kinda hopefully in the next 8 months', but we all know the next 14 remain unlikely.
Regarding this simply fascinating direction of conversation, of all the vocal critics, I'm probably among the few who hasn't flat out said at length how wave 2 won't happen, but what I have said is that their ongoing silence and lack of progress makes it hard to believe they're making any progress. That going 1-2+ years without new product for the line is more likely to kill it than anything I say or do. They are killing it before our and their own eyes, every week that there isn't a new prototype to show off or render that's ACTUALLY FETHING DONE (not just "done").
Maybe they find the money and the cajones and the time to bring out wave 2 in 2019.
Who cares.
There are plenty of 'small companies' that manage to produce new figures on a regular basis in this industry every year, if not monthly. We're talking people who will have taken a '7 month project' and turned it into ~42+ month project.
When a realistic completion estimate is in the 600%+ range, snark and vagueness don't win any points, and PB would rather gush at 19 page length about how they saved anime than actually show off these figures and their alleged 'reduced parts count'.
To reiterate, their current target is 2.5 years late. Kingdom Death and Ogre (yes, aside from some parts, I'm talking majority of physical components and whatnot) and Relic Knights and many other "very shamefully late" projects look at that and go "whelp, at least we're not them".
It's an embarrassment in the industry, and while I'm not actively seeking blood, y'know what, it would be nice if one of these fethmuppetry based projects actually saw some consequences for their inaction or ineptitude.
So I guess I'll get to throw peanuts from the gallery and continue my countdowns and poking them when the mood moves me to. But I don't have to like it, and frankly, if gaking all over it publicly risks costing them some players/money, good. That's my contribution. They want me to stop, they can do their fething jobs. Sorry if that hurts those who do enjoy the game, but 'feth you, got mine' isn't winning any friends either. They are past the point where I'll naively and meekly hope that if I just love them hard enough that maybe it'll work out. That's not a healthy consumer relationship, that's an unsettling parallel for an abusive relationship with an unstable person.
But don't worry; someone totally just ordered TEN of those $42 grab bags! $420 whole dollars in a single order, what luck, what luxury! A shame they didn't have some opportunity where 5,342 backers gave them (on average) over half that apiece.
CaptKaruthors wrote: You have no proof that they do not have the money to complete wave 2. It's all speculation...not fact. Unless you have access to their financials... you don't know. While I'm certain they don't have the money to complete it...I still think they will find a way. They have to. Everything rides on it. I also think they have arrived at an alternative way to produce wave 2. So the question still stands: Will you admit you were wrong if it gets released and PB endures? If the opposite is true...and it turns out that it doesn't get released...and they do in fact fold as a company...I will admit I'm wrong.
Just curious, if you're so confidant that Wave 2 will eventuate, would you consider picking up pledges (at cost, no profit/loss for the backer), up to a reasonable level? You seem adamant it will happen, and as others have pointed out, even undercutting OLGS's will at least get you your money back should it be in excess of your needs. So, why not put out that offer? You get what you seem to feel is a sure thing, at Kickstarter prices, and you relieve someone who doesn't have that confidence of the financial ties that seem to cause the aggression you speak out against. You'll also have money tied to the project (rather than as some future purhase), so you'll see how backers feel, even if you're coming to it late. And PB have done it in the past, so it's not a unique thing.
Seems like a win-win for you and anyone from who you buy.
OTOH, Kingdom Death is planning to deliver Wave 3 Q1 2016, from actual physical product in hand. Late, yes. Very late, and that all of that lateness was self-inflicted due to ever-bloating content. KD:M is the Kicksarter poster child for scope creep. Yet, I still have a lot of confidence that Adam will actually deliver all of the KD:M product that was ordered. And that product will be the awesomest ever.
OGRE? They're just a bunch of screwups who had no fething clue when they did the Kickstarter, and still don't have the slightest clue how to close out the remaining random promises they made. Steve Jackson is the very definition of "stupidity and incompetence, not malice." And yet, they still mention that they're working on this stuff. Sorta. I'm totally expecting a big chunk of the promised Ogre soundtrack to be loops of Yakety Sax, but one day, one imagines they will have kept their promises.
Robotech, OTOH, has nothing, and Kevin keeps blowing smoke. That's what's really pissing me off about the whole thing. Not a shred of decency or integrity. No concept of keeping promises, because Kevin isn't even trying. Give us a real update that actually shows where things are, with actual pictures of things, and maybe I'll believe it. Until then, it's just more lies.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Robotech, OTOH, has nothing, and Kevin keeps blowing smoke. That's what's really pissing me off about the whole thing. Not a shred of decency or integrity. No concept of keeping promises, because Kevin isn't even trying. Give us a real update that actually shows where things are, with actual pictures of things, and maybe I'll believe it. Until then, it's just more lies.
Hell in Kevin's latest weekly spew he even said they are not working on RRT and probably won't be for a couple of weeks, but OTOH they said this last week too, but never fear Capt. Caruthers has faith PB is working on wave 2, regardless if Kevin even says he is not.
Just curious, if you're so confidant that Wave 2 will eventuate, would you consider picking up pledges (at cost, no profit/loss for the backer), up to a reasonable level? You seem adamant it will happen, and as others have pointed out, even undercutting OLGS's will at least get you your money back should it be in excess of your needs. So, why not put out that offer? You get what you seem to feel is a sure thing, at Kickstarter prices, and you relieve someone who doesn't have that confidence of the financial ties that seem to cause the aggression you speak out against. You'll also have money tied to the project (rather than as some future purhase), so you'll see how backers feel, even if you're coming to it late. And PB have done it in the past, so it's not a unique thing.
Seems like a win-win for you and anyone from who you buy.
It's a tempting offer...but if I admit I'm wrong there will be no wave 2 anyways. So what's the point? I have a better idea: When wave 2 is released...you sell me your Gnerls for the price you paid in the KS. Everything else I want from wave 2, I already own as I bought the Con Exclusives to get the units I wanted. The Gnerls are the only things that interest me at this point. Everything else I'll buy at retail when it comes out as I'm not in a hurry for a Mac 2, Lancers, or ghosts...and Zentraedi Infantry are worthless in the game...and should never be made...OR have their rules be better. The fact that they can't boost their speed/ run is stupid.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Robotech, OTOH, has nothing, and Kevin keeps blowing smoke. That's what's really pissing me off about the whole thing. Not a shred of decency or integrity. No concept of keeping promises, because Kevin isn't even trying. Give us a real update that actually shows where things are, with actual pictures of things, and maybe I'll believe it. Until then, it's just more lies.
Hell in Kevin's latest weekly spew he even said they are not working on RRT and probably won't be for a couple of weeks, but OTOH they said this last week too, but never fear Capt. Caruthers has faith PB is working on wave 2, regardless if Kevin even says he is not.
Let's not pile onto him. I think we both know he doesn't mean exactly this week but in general. I disagree with him on that but lets try not to blow the statement out of proportion.
Just curious, if you're so confidant that Wave 2 will eventuate, would you consider picking up pledges (at cost, no profit/loss for the backer), up to a reasonable level? You seem adamant it will happen, and as others have pointed out, even undercutting OLGS's will at least get you your money back should it be in excess of your needs. So, why not put out that offer? You get what you seem to feel is a sure thing, at Kickstarter prices, and you relieve someone who doesn't have that confidence of the financial ties that seem to cause the aggression you speak out against. You'll also have money tied to the project (rather than as some future purhase), so you'll see how backers feel, even if you're coming to it late. And PB have done it in the past, so it's not a unique thing.
Seems like a win-win for you and anyone from who you buy.
It's a tempting offer...but if I admit I'm wrong there will be no wave 2 anyways. So what's the point? I have a better idea: When wave 2 is released...you sell me your Gnerls for the price you paid in the KS. Everything else I want from wave 2, I already own as I bought the Con Exclusives to get the units I wanted. The Gnerls are the only things that interest me at this point. Everything else I'll buy at retail when it comes out as I'm not in a hurry for a Mac 2, Lancers, or ghosts...and Zentraedi Infantry are worthless in the game...and should never be made...OR have their rules be better. The fact that they can boost their speed/ run is stupid.
pity you will never see any of these:
as for me I shall have some soon enough if i so chose to.
you act as if PB cares, they do not, they are just trying to hold off people suing them and the government going after them, they as much as admitted they were already out of money when they posted what they had spent, how much shipping was and how it was costing them more money then they expected.
No I'm acting as a realist and understand that there probably is a plan that you or me aren't privy to. The only way we'll know that for sure is if wave 2 does come out. Everything else is speculation based on incomplete information. The rest of the gaps we fill in with what we want to believe. While the time table for the release of wave 2 is way off and people are pissed. Stuff happens in the production process. I see it all the time in my own job. Now, extrapolate the inexperience that PB has with this kind of work. Extrapolate that the company is no longer being assisted by ND, extrapolate that the company has 5 FN employees...and doesn't have a QC/ Product developer to assist...and you can see where the delays are. These guys are learning as they go...painfully slow. I've said from the beginning that one of the biggest mistakes was that PB didn't hire a project manager to specifically work on Robotech until completion. Part of the KS funding should have gone towards a salary for that position. Again, I think PB assumed that ND would do the heavy lifting in this area...afterall, they are a miniatures company..they should have that knowledge. Who knows how that relationship was suppose to work. Yeah ND supplied the digital sculpts...but maybe they were supposed to help with the logistics as well. We'll never know for sure...we can only speculate.
PB has no money nor do they have any intention of producing wave 2, they have had the designs for wave 2 that ND gave them for about a year now or so, the fact you refuse to even consider this is more of a joke then anything.
I'm sure they have no money. I've said that before. But that doesn't mean they can't get more money from other sources to complete a project. Most businesses I know are using business loans, or investment capital. What you don't know is if they have a plan in place to get the capital they need to finish wave 2. You don't know. So don't pretend you do. None of us know. However, they are a business...and all businesses will use loans for stuff. For me, it's a wait and see approach. I'm sure they have a plan...but will it work? Only time will tell. However, if PB is going to survive....their plan has to work..to save themselves. Self preservation is the strongest emotion there is.
We have ND saying they gave PB the designs last year, we have PB even admitting they have had the designs for that amount of time, and yet they have done nothing.
Great. And my company has been sitting on Hard Rock Cafe designs for nearly 10 months waiting for approval from HRC. Again, stuff happens. It was told to us that the formats were wrong for chinese manufacturing. Now, given my experience with working with the chinese, I can tell you that can and does happen..a lot. A lot of times, some factories will commit to a project...and get over booked and they sub contract it out to another factory that they are partnered with and maybe they can't execute the project unless some changes to the files are made. Then you also have the government themselves that limit bandwidth, etc. All sorts of stupid crap can crop up and cause delays.
PB is a joke of a company and should be brought down before they try to screw over other innocent people.
Again, your desire to hold moral authority over others is astounding. This isn't a life or death situation. LOL.
also the part where you say "I still think they will find a way. They have to. Everything rides on it." is the cry of the desperate.
LOL. Hardly. It's the statement of logic than desperation. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Pretend you've just made all the mistakes they made and are faced with litigation. From where you stand...to avoid all of that and to ensure your companies survival...wave 2 must get done. That's no desperation..that's the honest truth. Anything short of that will doom them. So for them, getting it done by hook or crook is an act of self preservation.
you act as if PB cares, they do not, they are just trying to hold off people suing them and the government going after them, they as much as admitted they were already out of money when they posted what they had spent, how much shipping was and how it was costing them more money then they expected.
No I'm acting as a realist and understand that there probably is a plan that you or me aren't privy to. The only way we'll know that for sure is if wave 2 does come out. Everything else is speculation based on incomplete information. The rest of the gaps we fill in with what we want to believe. While the time table for the release of wave 2 is way off and people are pissed. Stuff happens in the production process. I see it all the time in my own job. Now, extrapolate the inexperience that PB has with this kind of work. Extrapolate that the company is no longer being assisted by ND, extrapolate that the company has 5 FN employees...and doesn't have a QC/ Product developer to assist...and you can see where the delays are. These guys are learning as they go...painfully slow. I've said from the beginning that one of the biggest mistakes was that PB didn't hire a project manager to specifically work on Robotech until completion. Part of the KS funding should have gone towards a salary for that position. Again, I think PB assumed that ND would do the heavy lifting in this area...afterall, they are a miniatures company..they should have that knowledge. Who knows how that relationship was suppose to work. Yeah ND supplied the digital sculpts...but maybe they were supposed to help with the logistics as well. We'll never know for sure...we can only speculate.
PB has no money nor do they have any intention of producing wave 2, they have had the designs for wave 2 that ND gave them for about a year now or so, the fact you refuse to even consider this is more of a joke then anything.
I'm sure they have no money. I've said that before. But that doesn't mean they can't get more money from other sources to complete a project. Most businesses I know are using business loans, or investment capital. What you don't know is if they have a plan in place to get the capital they need to finish wave 2. You don't know. So don't pretend you do. None of us know. However, they are a business...and all businesses will use loans for stuff. For me, it's a wait and see approach. I'm sure they have a plan...but will it work? Only time will tell. However, if PB is going to survive....their plan has to work..to save themselves. Self preservation is the strongest emotion there is.
We have ND saying they gave PB the designs last year, we have PB even admitting they have had the designs for that amount of time, and yet they have done nothing.
Great. And my company has been sitting on Hard Rock Cafe designs for nearly 10 months waiting for approval from HRC. Again, stuff happens. It was told to us that the formats were wrong for chinese manufacturing. Now, given my experience with working with the chinese, I can tell you that can and does happen..a lot. A lot of times, some factories will commit to a project...and get over booked and they sub contract it out to another factory that they are partnered with and maybe they can't execute the project unless some changes to the files are made. Then you also have the government themselves that limit bandwidth, etc. All sorts of stupid crap can crop up and cause delays.
PB is a joke of a company and should be brought down before they try to screw over other innocent people.
Again, your desire to hold moral authority over others is astounding. This isn't a life or death situation. LOL.
also the part where you say "I still think they will find a way. They have to. Everything rides on it." is the cry of the desperate.
LOL. Hardly. It's the statement of logic than desperation. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Pretend you've just made all the mistakes they made and are faced with litigation. From where you stand...to avoid all of that and to ensure your companies survival...wave 2 must get done. That's no desperation..that's the honest truth. Anything short of that will doom them. So for them, getting it done by hook or crook is an act of self preservation.
and yet you still continue to hope and dream such a pity, meanwhile I have my stuff, what have you got?
Also right now no company or bank will loan PB the money due to them being a poor risk investment, not that PB hasn't already tried. keep dreaming eric, keep dreaming.
as for me I shall have some soon enough if i so chose to.
Fine by me. The sculpt is crap. I'd rather pay my coworker to actually z-brush a decent sculpt of a Gnerl and pay to have a master mold made from it, than live with that turd of a model. Or I can always find a local guy to do it. I'm and illustrator/graphic designer...sculpting isn't my strong suit..but I know enough people that have those skills and if wave 2 never materializes...you can rest assured that I'll have quality sculpted Gnerls at some point. But please, feel free to fumble through your designs for now.
as for me I shall have some soon enough if i so chose to.
Fine by me. The sculpt is crap. I'd rather pay my coworker to actually z-brush a decent sculpt of a Gnerl and pay to have a master mold made from it, than live with that turd of a model. Or I can always find a local guy to do it. I'm and illustrator/graphic designer...sculpting isn't my strong suit..but I know enough people that have those skills and if wave 2 never materializes...you can rest assured that I'll have quality sculpted Gnerls at some point. But please, feel free to fumble through your designs for now.
yeah well my design was done thru tinkercad and cost me nothing but a little time, what will yours cost you?
Just curious, if you're so confidant that Wave 2 will eventuate, would you consider picking up pledges (at cost, no profit/loss for the backer), up to a reasonable level? You seem adamant it will happen, and as others have pointed out, even undercutting OLGS's will at least get you your money back should it be in excess of your needs. So, why not put out that offer? You get what you seem to feel is a sure thing, at Kickstarter prices, and you relieve someone who doesn't have that confidence of the financial ties that seem to cause the aggression you speak out against. You'll also have money tied to the project (rather than as some future purhase), so you'll see how backers feel, even if you're coming to it late. And PB have done it in the past, so it's not a unique thing.
Seems like a win-win for you and anyone from who you buy.
It's a tempting offer...but if I admit I'm wrong there will be no wave 2 anyways. So what's the point? I have a better idea: When wave 2 is released...you sell me your Gnerls for the price you paid in the KS. Everything else I want from wave 2, I already own as I bought the Con Exclusives to get the units I wanted. The Gnerls are the only things that interest me at this point. Everything else I'll buy at retail when it comes out as I'm not in a hurry for a Mac 2, Lancers, or ghosts...and Zentraedi Infantry are worthless in the game...and should never be made...OR have their rules be better. The fact that they can boost their speed/ run is stupid.
So you want other people to shoulder a risk you're not willing to take, taking advantage if what YOU believe in comes true, but not suffering any meaningful consequence, and then complaining because those people don't have faith that Kevin will deliver, and that might ruin your chance to purchase after other people have put in the financial stake required to get the game to market? That's a really principled stance you're taking there.
I'd gladly sell you my Gnerls, except I have none left to offer. I punted on this project over a year ago, taking a $100 loss on the transaction, and remaining thankful that I get to watch this trainwreck without having money tied to it. And to head off any argument, as someone who paid in, and went through 5 months of excitement and a year of crap, I'm entitled to an opinion on public forums. I don't post to the KSComments, because I think that's unfair. But that doesn't mean I don't get to point and laugh.
Have to be honest, I also think we will see a wave 2. At this point there is no out for Palladium.
Do I think it will include everything? No, not a chance.
But I do think they will release something and tout it as having completed wave 2, and announce the rest to be completed at a later date.
and yet you still continue to hope and dream such a pity, meanwhile I have my stuff, what have you got?
You mean your horribly, non-detailed models..that barely meet proxy standards? No thanks. Maybe if they looked better, I'd be jealous. Besides...I'm not in any hurry for Southern Cross stuff or New Generation. I'm still having fun with my Macross saga stuff. But thanks for caring.
Also right now no company or bank will loan PB the money due to them being a poor risk investment, not that PB hasn't already tried. keep dreaming eric, keep dreaming.
Again, unless you have access to their financials and which banks they are using..or even the names of private investment groups/ individuals...you are speculating. The fact that I'm disappointed in PB for their bad decisions over this project...and their gross incompetence in how to actually support a war-game properly..I'm almost tempted to root for them to complete wave 2...just to see the shocked faces of the snarky people on here. I like how I posted my point of view several pages ago..but have basically been attacked the entire time because my point of view differs from yours or others. LOL. I find it amusing and sad at that same time. :shrug: The funny thing is that I'm not trying to stop you from what you are doing..go ahead...sue PB and see what happens...yet somehow I'm the anti-christ because I regularly play this game with a group of people and continue to buy things for the game...because you know..I like the game.
And as someone who backed with 3 friends for 8 Battle Cry tiers and a good $200'ish in add ons, even after selling off most of my stuff to recoup costs, I still have one friend sitting on 3 BC's (probably going to sell) and another with 2 (who has built maybe 25-30+ figures out of the 140 he received).
We got into the game Malifaux a few years ago, and between battlefoam bags and entire factions and books and whatnot, we dragged a solid half dozen people into the game. We are generally 30's to 40's folks making fairly solid cash, few kids between us (yay disposable income), and a profound love of the Robotech IP across many of us. I have the entire novel series on my shelves right now, along with some of PB's Robotech/Macross 2 books (a few of them have survived repeated sales purges).
In other words, we are ideal fans. We are people who argued at length for the mere opportunity to give them more money to buy their precious limited edition figures.
And now that we've watched their bullgak year after year, their offers fall on deaf ears. I would've happily given them a good chunk of cash, had this been handled in a remotely professional fashion.
Sadly, I don't see any positive spin for treating them any better than I feel they're treating me, which is objectively 'not particularly well' at this point. When they want to sack up and show some progress, then we'll talk about reining in the stick in favour of some carrot again.
You've asked to prove a negative, that's a false start to begin with. If they take 10 more years to deliver, does anyone really give a feth? The game will be dead and gone. So there's a ticking time limit, which will vary based on people's patience, but I think 2016 (14 months) is pretty fething generous. They're getting plastic figures made, not landing a man on the moon. So you skipped out on answering the question that was asked back at you; what's the point where you'd in turn admit that wave 2 isn't coming, or has been so overdue it doesn't matter? 2.5 years late is the current target, and 3 years late (or later) is entirely possible. That doesn't seem like a questionable situation to you?
Edit: also, feel free to respond in paragraphs. Chopping up peoples posts line by line is obnoxious as all get out.
yeah well my design was done thru tinkercad and cost me nothing but a little time, what will yours cost you?
LOL. I'm price insensitive to this game (I dropped nearly $300 on Con Exclusives)...just like I am with GW games. I buy titans at full retail from FW..not chinese fakes. I don't care how much it will cost if it looks good and is of quality. The funny thing is...I don't expect it will cost much other than maybe trading some things..or some money of some kind. My friends aren't going to fleece me...and the best thing is that it frees up my time to actually play the game...instead of making models for it.
Update 116 Early Nov 2013 is just one of those wall of text excuse updates we have grown accustomed to.
Update 186 Late Aug 2015 The "Nasty Chatter" rant, this is when the BBB reports and threats of lawsuits seemed to get under Kevin's skin.
I really cannot seriously contemplate that!
My modeling/sculpting skills suck..having me make my own is out of the question.
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