Since this campaign ended, I have been diagnosed with diabetes, had an 8cm cancerous mass and 10cm of small intestine removed, had a medical port implanted, endured 6 chemo treatments and am now cancer free.
But.
I still find it in me to be seriously irritated with Palladium.
GuyverBlue wrote: Since this campaign ended, I have been diagnosed with diabetes, had an 8cm cancerous mass and 10cm of small intestine removed, had a medical port implanted, endured 6 chemo treatments and am now cancer free.
But.
I still find it in me to be seriously irritated with Palladium.
Oh jeez. Hope stuff stays copacetic and there's no further issue.
But that'd be an interesting tagline. "Robotech Tactics. A worse experience than having cancer.".
On a different tack, if they don't have an Update this weekend, they're reverting to form and again screwing any small amount of goodwill. It'll be three weeks tomorrow. They need to have something better than pablum. But I'm not expecting anything.
Yeah, that's beats anything I'd add. Best wishes and luck, Guyver! For me, I've gained and lost 30 pounds, started getting my first grey hair, bought 4 waves of x-wing products, painted a full force of Heavy Gear Nucoal tanks and gears, painted a small Tau Farsight ally army, picked up Halo Battles as my next project, and sold off most of my excess Palladium RPG stuff.
For now I'm hoping wave arrives before the start of WWW3.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When this campaign started I was fit and exercised. Since then my rheumatoid arthritis has gotten worse limiting my movements and I've gained a lot of wait. Hell I should be fitted for a bra I've put on so much weight. On the plus side at least I still have my hair considering I'm 3 yrs from turning 40.lol
For now I'm hoping wave arrives before the start of WWW3.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When this campaign started I was fit and exercised. Since then my rheumatoid arthritis has gotten worse limiting my movements and I've gained a lot of wait. Hell I should be fitted for a bra I've put on so much weight. On the plus side at least I still have my hair considering I'm 3 yrs from turning 40.lol
I think we all unexpectedly gained alot of wait. About two years and counting so far...
Let's see, from early 2013 to now, I have moved twice, put on some weight (not proud, but I'm with ya brothers, it's a work in progress), finally visited my first Gencon (of the 3 that have occurred since the project began), have been promoted, am pondering moving again (probably before delivery), sold off most of wave one and most of my remaining PBRPGs (the major purge was over a decade ago, but with repeated moves it saves weight and space to pare down collections now and then).
Which is to say that it's been a busy couple of years but GuyverBlue's got me beat hands down. Literally. My takeaway from that story is that no conventional means can stop him.
Now, DNF was a much longer running gag... but approaching 3 years, this one has to have some historical benchmarks behind it.
I wonder how many marriages have occurred since the KS? How many divorces? Children? Deaths (as we've morbidly contemplated in the past)?
People keep saying 'omg it's not a big deal be patient', but given that the average north american male will die around 76, I think approaching 4% of ones fething lifespan is a pretty sizeable period of time as it is.
Wayne spent part of today working on a revised Blast rule with a few advisors, and they hope to have a proposed rule change posted for public testing and comment in the next day or two.
It is my impression that the Robotech® Macross paper game pieces should also be ready soon. And I know Wayne is working on a number of other things. Otherwise, not much has changed in the last week. We continue to work on several aspects of Wave Two. More Wave Two game cards are being posted on DriveThruRPG.com with more cards, rules, Macross paper game pieces and good stuff to come. Meanwhile, we continue to explore ways to reduce the piece count and are considering every possibility without sacrificing quality. RRT Organized play is the other thing we need to tackle, as that’s what people are looking for. We’ve been discussing and making notes for that in the last few days, and have some fun and intriguing ideas.
So it has been over 11 weeks that Wayne has been working on pulling together the state of each game piece (24 figures and 8 resin pieces, off the top of my head). 55 days (assuming a 5 day work week) to compile data on 32 figures, or nearly 1.5 days per item.
Buddy, for the long hours Kevin keeps talking about you guys putting in, we need to talk about productivity. (yes, granted Gencon was in there and Alliance's open house and other stuff; point stands, this is information they should be tracking for the project in general, it should not take 3 months to compile)
I see Wayne is working on the blast rules! And there's paper figures coming (facing is important, LOS is to center of mass, let's play with 2D proxies...)!
Let's get some other choice quotes;
We’re hammering away on books, so I’m going to keep the rest of this Update brief. Game on!
Yeah, it's amazing how these updates can apparently take hours to craft when they're mostly copy/pastes.
UPDATE: Chaos Earth® Resurrection™
This book is scary good. After Alex finished editing the latest batch, he said to me, “Kev, this is really scary stuff. I mean truly scary to play.”
So they're the Stephen King of RPG writers. *eye roll, obscene gesture*
I've played pretty much everything they've made, from Rifts (where you can literally fight Old Ones if you're packing enough firepower) to their Horror game line "Nightbane" (originally Nightspawn until Todd Mcfarlane told them to get bent). They don't have 'unsettling' in them, let alone 'truly scary to play'.
I told him that was the intention of author Taylor White, and I’m keeping that sense of horror and the macabre in the changes and additions I’m making. Chuck Walton’s artwork helps to maintain the horror. And it’s not just things like cyborg zombies and clockwork zombies with weapon limbs and armor bolted to their bodies. It’s the setup, the Transmission, the Black Obelisk and zombies like the Living Dead Girl that add suspense, creepiness and a psychological element of horror. Nice work, Taylor.
Cyborg zombies! Clockwork zombies! (so... steampunk cyborg zombies?) The Living Dead Girl!
Oh good, they watched The Ring and flipped through the rule book for Malifaux. Keep pushing those limits!
REMINDER: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Convention Exclusives are available to Kickstarter backers ANYTIME
"Please! PLEASE buy these things!! You guys wanted exclusives, you can have them! You can have them all! As many as you like! Don't worry baby, it's not just the Hype(R) and Buzz(C), but we're doing it for you! FOR YOUUUUUU! And totally not because we want all this pewter gone and turned in to moneyyyyyyyyyy!"
Closing thoughts . . .
We are laser focused on banging out new books and new Robotech® RPG Tactics™ material, and getting old favorites into your hands in new formats like PDFs from DriveThru, other game systems like Rifts® for the Savage Worlds® RPG, and surprises yet to be revealed.
Enjoy the warm and sunny weekend sweeping across North America, because Winter is just around the corner. And our latest big Flash Sale offers purchases that can keep you busy when Winter rolls in. Not to mention the sale items make excellent holiday gifts for the gamers and Robotech® fans in your life. Keep those imaginations burning bright – ours are on fire!
– Kevin Siembieda, Game Designer, Writer, Publisher
They are LASER FOCUSED! Their imaginations are ON FIRE! Btw please buy stuff, if not for yourself, then for others! Just buy it!
Pay no mind to the fact that Black Friday is a mere 9 weeks away, and that if it's anything like last year 'grab bag season' might begin in a mere 2 weeks!
Wayne spent part of today working on a revised Blast rule with a few advisors, and they hope to have a proposed rule change posted for public testing and comment in the next day or two.
It is my impression that the Robotech® Macross paper game pieces should also be ready soon. And I know Wayne is working on a number of other things. Otherwise, not much has changed in the last week. We continue to work on several aspects of Wave Two. More Wave Two game cards are being posted on DriveThruRPG.com with more cards, rules, Macross paper game pieces and good stuff to come. Meanwhile, we continue to explore ways to reduce the piece count and are considering every possibility without sacrificing quality. RRT Organized play is the other thing we need to tackle, as that’s what people are looking for. We’ve been discussing and making notes for that in the last few days, and have some fun and intriguing ideas.
So it has been over 11 weeks that Wayne has been working on pulling together the state of each game piece (24 figures and 8 resin pieces, off the top of my head). 55 days (assuming a 5 day work week) to compile data on 32 figures, or nearly 1.5 days per item.
Buddy, for the long hours Kevin keeps talking about you guys putting in, we need to talk about productivity. (yes, granted Gencon was in there and Alliance's open house and other stuff; point stands, this is information they should be tracking for the project in general, it should not take 3 months to compile)
I see Wayne is working on the blast rules! And there's paper figures coming (facing is important, LOS is to center of mass, let's play with 2D proxies...)!
The blast rule has been an issue for a long time. The last discussion on the PBForums about this ran from early February to mid April. But they're finally getting around to addressing it. So, progress! Wheee! And as per Update 184, they've only had that information back from the people responsible for doing the gruntwork, for 11+ weeks at this point.
Along with the Conventional Forces (in the same para, between the prototype Grell and the painted Miriya's, which do appear to be literally vaporware at this point. When Palladium stop spruiking something that's behind on deadline, you can pretty much count that as gone, no? Likely because of a lack of pre-sale. Which is ironic as gak, because it was likely the lack of stats that lead to the lack of pre-sale. More ironic because there was essentially nothing needed for them to do it. All the miniatures were from GHQ's existing line. Sure, it's still mentioned in their wishlist of gak they plan on doing "soon", but that could just be a cut and paste error.
"Not much has changed in the last week". Which given what has changed from the previous week, should just be read as "since February". How they can claim (according to the BBB responses) to be "actively developing" the game, while making so little progress, is astounding.
Organized play is important, sure. You should get right on that. If only it wasn't a relatively simple thing to get started, that should have been done oh... a year ago so that when the game was released to the public, there was a structure in place so people didn't need to hamfist it. Sure, some games on release don't have something like this in place immediately. But the situation here is much different. Most games don't have the number of "pre-orders" RRT had, nor an extra 9 months to get a structure in place. If this was first going to market without 5000+ people putting down money in advance, it'd be different. Same as if it had of gone out December 2013, not having OrgPlay ready until mid 2014 (test it at Adepticon, dial it in for GenCon) would have been fine. But that's not the case here.
And it's not like the first iteration needs to be THAT complicated. This is how much terrain you need. This is how Tournament scoring works. This is the initial set of army construction rules (if there's an issue to address, like promo figures). This is how the finals should work. Here's the latest FAQ/E. Leave anything complicated, like those weird "You can't play Destroids" space rules, until the supporting framework is solid. It's not a hard task, and a couple of hours of research and hard work, should have had this done. There's no need to reinvent the wheel when the general structure's been out there for what, 20+ years now. But in typical PB fashion, gotta do it all themselves. If they're smart (not a safe bet), they'll put a preview up for public comment, so if there are any glaring issues, they'll be pointed out BEFORE they implement it as official. Having to retract something because it's blatantly abusable wouldn't be a good look for a company already rife with self-inflicted errors.
This book is scary good. After Alex finished editing the latest batch, he said to me, “Kev, this is really scary stuff. I mean truly scary to play.”
So they're the Stephen King of RPG writers. *eye roll, obscene gesture*
I've played pretty much everything they've made, from Rifts (where you can literally fight Old Ones if you're packing enough firepower) to their Horror game line "Nightbane" (originally Nightspawn until Todd Mcfarlane told them to get bent). They don't have 'unsettling' in them, let alone 'truly scary to play'.
Don't you mock his genius! You praise his name, Forar! Praise it!
Seriously (or not), I think I figured out where all the money's gone, and why there's a need for the sales. It's medical costs. There seems to be a need for multiple shoulder reconstructions (from patting themselves on the back) and cranial/rectal seperation surgeries (both from removing his employees heads from his arse, and removing his head from his own, which would come with a side order of spinal correction).
Kevin, stop with the bloviating self-congratulation. If the product is as great as you say, let the work will speak for itself.
REMINDER: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Convention Exclusives are available to Kickstarter backers ANYTIME
"Please! PLEASE buy these things!! You guys wanted exclusives, you can have them! You can have them all! As many as you like! Don't worry baby, it's not just the Hype(R) and Buzz(C), but we're doing it for you! FOR YOUUUUUU! And totally not because we want all this pewter gone and turned in to moneyyyyyyyyyy!"
We are laser focused on banging out new books and new Robotech® RPG Tactics™ material, and getting old favorites into your hands in new formats like PDFs from DriveThru, other game systems like Rifts® for the Savage Worlds® RPG, and surprises yet to be revealed.
Enjoy the warm and sunny weekend sweeping across North America, because Winter is just around the corner. And our latest big Flash Sale offers purchases that can keep you busy when Winter rolls in. Not to mention the sale items make excellent holiday gifts for the gamers and Robotech® fans in your life. Keep those imaginations burning bright – ours are on fire!
– Kevin Siembieda, Game Designer, Writer, Publisher
They are LASER FOCUSED! Their imaginations are ON FIRE! Btw please buy stuff, if not for yourself, then for others! Just buy it!
Pay no mind to the fact that Black Friday is a mere 9 weeks away, and that if it's anything like last year 'grab bag season' might begin in a mere 2 weeks!
Yup. The desperation for sales is quite excessive. Especially given that like you said, there's likely another sale likely to start in a couple weeks, and then there's Christmas Grab Bag time. But there's no reason to look at the man behind the curtain. I'm sure the sales are purely for the customer's benefit, and the books are fine. Nothing shady there, you betcha.
Mike, didn't you mention submitting or giving feedback on the changed blast rules MONTHS ago? And they're now starting to work on that? I guess they're trying to squeeze it in with the submitted rules for conventional vehicles from the beginning of summer that were supposed to get people to buy the repackaged tank and airplane minis.
It's more jazz hands to borrow a phrase from Forar. Oh, and it looks like it's full speed ahead to break yet another promise made on the kickstarter (Convention and KS exclusive minis). I like how in the 19 page history lesson the minis were both in bold and all caps as being exclusive and now it has turned into bunny ears around the word. Eh, whatever. At this point, I don't care if they offer sexual favors behind a curtain at their open house if it raises enough money to get wave 2 into my hands before either Palladium, Kevin, or I die. I don't expect any promise from Palladium to be worth the paper it is printed on (and considering it is distributed by email....).
Morgan Vening wrote: Along with the Conventional Forces (in the same para, between the prototype Grell and the painted Miriya's, which do appear to be literally vaporware at this point.
As I understood it, that stuff was 'pending interest', as in, if enough people expressed interest in purchasing it, they would make it happen. I cant speak for anyone else, but I *AM* interested in that stuff... I just refuse to give Palladium another penny until they give me the gak I already paid for. If they thought they could put out non-wave 2 stuff that we would buy so that they could raise money to complete wave 2, then they're SOL.
Morgan Vening wrote: Along with the Conventional Forces (in the same para, between the prototype Grell and the painted Miriya's, which do appear to be literally vaporware at this point.
As I understood it, that stuff was 'pending interest', as in, if enough people expressed interest in purchasing it, they would make it happen. I cant speak for anyone else, but I *AM* interested in that stuff... I just refuse to give Palladium another penny until they give me the gak I already paid for. If they thought they could put out non-wave 2 stuff that we would buy so that they could raise money to complete wave 2, then they're SOL.
On the exact same wavelength there.
Funny how these "exclusives" make this "other" product acceptable to flog on the KS page... until it isn't.
I am terribly interested in their new stuff but I just cannot reward bad behavior even with my extensive self interest needs.
PB just needs to throw us a bone here and they could see some purchases happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also after all this I think we need a guide to all the various words and phrases that have developed as a culture for this KS. Though it oddly bothers me that "KS" for kickstarter could be misinterpreted as short for Kevin S.
Morgan Vening wrote: Along with the Conventional Forces (in the same para, between the prototype Grell and the painted Miriya's, which do appear to be literally vaporware at this point.
As I understood it, that stuff was 'pending interest', as in, if enough people expressed interest in purchasing it, they would make it happen. I cant speak for anyone else, but I *AM* interested in that stuff... I just refuse to give Palladium another penny until they give me the gak I already paid for. If they thought they could put out non-wave 2 stuff that we would buy so that they could raise money to complete wave 2, then they're SOL.
The release of the figures with RRT stat cards and packaging is 'pending interest', but the stats themselves (done by Mike and others) have allegedly been done and ready for approval for months now. Mike was working on conventional forces long before GHQ reached out to him, and he put them and PB in touch to sort things out.
Even with a 'final points/upgrades are works in progress', they totally should have been able to release the Beta level efforts, get some fan playtesting done, and let people know how the force org charts work.
A squad of tanks, APC's, or aircraft shifting 5 or 10 points is one thing, but not even knowing how many belong in a squad card/support card is something else entirely. Are they like VT's where a box is a support worth? Like Artillery Pods where it's a weird 2/3 of a squad? Like Battlepods where they can be mixed and matched in a handful of variations as a squad alone (6! 9! 12!) and vastly more when considering support card options?
That's information they could have given, but haven't. It's been 'in the works' or 'a few weeks away' for months now.
It's funny; aside from upgrades, we've basically known the stats of the Robotech figures for years now (unit stats and force org charts). Here the figures literally exist but they simply cannot deliver (on the scale of months) the information that would allow consumers to make an informed choice.
Or maybe their waffling about has led to so little interest that they just can't be bothered, which would be a funny self-fulfilling prophecy.
Or people realized too quickly that they can just buy from GHQ for cheaper and use Mike's cards for stats...
Anyway, the Robotech specific units (the Cats Eye Recon aircraft and the Comanchero) are the ones that they're allegedly trying to ascertain consumer interest in before commissioning. The other conventional stuff already exists. RRT 'conventional forces' will just be slapping PB's branding on the blister packs, including cards for use in the game, and charging more per figure (or the same price for fewer figures).
Talizvar wrote: [
I am terribly interested in their new stuff but I just cannot reward bad behavior even with my extensive self interest needs.
PB just needs to throw us a bone here and they could see some purchases happen.
I'm not interested in a bone anymore... I want the goddamn meal I paid for hours ago! A bone isn't what you give folks who have been waiting two years longer than your planned 6 months and is too little too late but sadly it is what we'd be lucky to get in the forseeable future. Barring legal action (either by an individual backer, groups of backers, or an state AG), I don't think we'll ever see wave 2 in its entirety.
warboss wrote: Barring legal action (either by an individual backer, groups of backers, or an state AG), I don't think we'll ever see wave 2 in its entirety.
Gah! I had one of those panic moments before my brain kicked-in: they could draw it out to wave 3!!!
Then I realized that shipping cost is the #1 barrier but they could draw this out for a decade!
If they manage to convince themselves they can try to charge us for wave 2 shipments then their hopes and dreams could become a reality! Kevin could have his hostage audience forever!
warboss wrote: Barring legal action (either by an individual backer, groups of backers, or an state AG), I don't think we'll ever see wave 2 in its entirety.
Gah! I had one of those panic moments before my brain kicked-in: they could draw it out to wave 3!!!
Then I realized that shipping cost is the #1 barrier but they could draw this out for a decade!
If they manage to convince themselves they can try to charge us for wave 2 shipments then their hopes and dreams could become a reality! Kevin could have his hostage audience forever!
My prediction is that they'll keep drawing out the remaining wave 2 items until their license is about to expire. Shortly before that, they'll post another 19 page update that throws someone else under the bus and state that they've made only X amount of minis from only Y number of sculpts and they'll ship those out (probably to the US customers first to avoid the tiny chance of local litigation). At that point, they'll announce they're choosing not to renew the license (due to increased costs from the upcoming movie) and that they did their best and they're washing their hands of it all. We'll see a 75% off firesale of the boxes of wave 1 stuff that they spent our money on despite them being destined for retail. We'll also see the bs excuse that they gave the BBB that they're not liable for anything else because they already shipped more than our pledge value in "retail" cost despite it being less than half the actual retail value of what they promised us. That is my pessimistic prediction but I would point out that the most pessimistic predictions regarding this campaign (short of actually committing a crime, of course) have been the most accurate.
I hope I'm wrong because them completing wave 2 early next year would mean that I could finally be done with my dealings with this company (except for pledging $1 to any future crowdfunding they do just for the priveledge of commenting)... but I don't think that I will be.
Morgan Vening wrote: Along with the Conventional Forces (in the same para, between the prototype Grell and the painted Miriya's, which do appear to be literally vaporware at this point.
As I understood it, that stuff was 'pending interest', as in, if enough people expressed interest in purchasing it, they would make it happen. I cant speak for anyone else, but I *AM* interested in that stuff... I just refuse to give Palladium another penny until they give me the gak I already paid for. If they thought they could put out non-wave 2 stuff that we would buy so that they could raise money to complete wave 2, then they're SOL.
Actually, the initial announcement didn't have the "pending interest" caveat, according to it's announcement in Update 179. The retail release was, but according to the Update I linked, it appeared the original concept was "We're going to do a run of these regardless, for backers. Then any beyond what backers purchase, we might use for prize support and the like. And if it goes well, it'll go retail". Since it's clear that pre-orders aren't going nuts (for several reasons, yours being one), they've since added that caveat. Them changing the terms of the deal unilaterally, and usually without notice, isn't a rare thing (I'm looking at you, "with enough parts to make any combination of Tomahawks or Defenders." and "Backers first".)
The ironic thing is that there's not even anything to do. For them to sell conventional forces, they need the following.
Miniature design and sculpts - Already done by GHQ.
Miniature production - Ready to be done by GHQ (if they don't already have significant quantities in stock.
Plastic clamshells - Already done, as shown by the promo figures.
Blister Card art and physical insert - Again, already done for the promo figures.
Game card template - Already done.
Game card stats - Awaiting finalization.
Game card printing - Can't be that f'n hard, seriously. Hell, it can be done relatively cheaply through Printer Studio if you don't want to do a big print run.
It's that second last one they're stumbling on, and is the reason for at least some lack of interest in purchase. And one they've been working on now for three plus months now, after supposedly being finalized a week after Update 182. back in middle of June. That Update also made it seem a done deal that it WOULD go retail (no caveats). But then again, they said RRT would be at GenCon 2014. For sale. In quantity. There's not much question about that.
Swabby wrote: Morgan, never underestimate the possibility that card formats might be incompatible with chinese printers.
True. There is always the possibility of palladium formating Mike's rules in Cunnieform clay tablets and the printer with the lowest bid for the job only able to accept Native American beadwork patterns.
GuyverBlue wrote: Since this campaign ended, I have been diagnosed with diabetes, had an 8cm cancerous mass and 10cm of small intestine removed, had a medical port implanted, endured 6 chemo treatments and am now cancer free.
But.
I still find it in me to be seriously irritated with Palladium.
Geeze man, stay well.
As for me I had twins and moved overseas twice (Trinidad-US-India).
Still waiting for wave 2, maybe for the twins 5th birthday? By then they'll be old enough to help paint.
Thanks all for the good wishes. I just need time to get my strength back now. My fine motor skills are kind of screwed up for now but I hadn't built any of these micro models for months anyway.
I had to laugh at this last Palladium update - organized game play. Mr S does live in his own little world doesn't he?
So I was an after the fact backer which means I don't get updates from Palladium. I received my wave 1 stuff, etc. I sold all my wave 1 stuff (should have kept the bag, it was awesome quality). I have been reading about scams, wave 2, etc, etc.
Is this turning out like Dust in that backers won't see wave 2 or what is the issue? It can't be finances as Palladium was swimming in cash after the campaign.
Can anyone enlighten someone who is kept in the dark?
@455 the short answer is it's been over 2 years and have seen nothing new for Wave 2, except occasional statements that it's coming, or they're focused on it etc.
In the mean time lots of distractions like a 'debate' on the scale of the next kickstarter (as if!), metal exclusive models etc and some desperate sales.
The theory is the money is gone, there is no money for wave two. Whether it went to keep the lights on at Palladium, or if sales so far are too low or whatever is the subject of much speculation and snark.
The bottom line is don't hold your breath.
The lesson learned for pledgers is Palladium does not have their !@#$ together.
The lesson learned for project organizers (I think) is yeah @#$% happens, but if you give meaningful updates and avoid false promises you might keep your good will. Basically don't do what Palladium is.
IF I WERE THEM, be honest, be transparent, scale back ambitions, put out some Wave 2 models in resin, because it seems this game does not have the fanbase to justify 30+ plastic models.
I would also toss in that even if you take them at their word, which I don't advise, they have not yet tooled all the models as they still "continue to explore ways to reduce the piece count" which you kind of can't do once steel (or whatever metal) has been cut. So by their own recent admission at least some kits are still in the design phase.
At least I think it was Forar...maybe it was someone else. We'll blame a Canadian anyway since they'll just apologize for being so blame-able. I eagerly await PB's discovery of this fact for when the next bus swings by...
I think Gencon is the next possible date... but that doesn't make it a realistic one. I don't believe Palladium gives a rat's ass about anyone but themselves (the delays, incompetence, VOLUNTARY horrible communication consisting of only minimal CYA speech and spin). They're going to miss the Xmas 2015 season no matter what. The next big splash they **could** make where they sell direct for full margins would be gencon and I suspect that is their next internal target. Of course, they'll come out with some bs speech about how they need to try and screw over backers again by devoting the first shipments to sell at gencon if it happens. My personal guess though is that they're just riding out the license clock and the too much of the money is gone because they spent it all on wave 1 stock sitting in their warehouse and they're in self preservation mode just like most of the rest of the past decade since the Crisis of TreacheryTM. The robotech slush fund... I mean kickstarter was just a brief respite and we now return you to the defacto desperate measures. Every man for himself! Grab a dice bag and RiftsTM monogrammed pencil on your way out! :(
warboss wrote: I think Gencon is the next possible date... but that doesn't make it a realistic one. I don't believe Palladium gives a rat's ass about anyone but themselves (the delays, incompetence, VOLUNTARY horrible communication consisting of only minimal CYA speech and spin). They're going to miss the Xmas 2015 season no matter what. The next big splash they **could** make where they sell direct for full margins would be gencon and I suspect that is their next internal target. Of course, they'll come out with some bs speech about how they need to try and screw over backers again by devoting the first shipments to sell at gencon if it happens.
And if they miss that, then they'll need to make sure it's all set for Black Friday to retail. Or Christmas. Or AdeptiCon 2017. Or GenCon 2017. There'll always be some imminent event they can screw backers over for. And not just because, either. From a business perspective, they're going to want to get as much wholesale/retail out into the wild before backers get theirs, and potentially glut the market. With Wave 1, it got to backers in an inconsistent manner, and a portion of those backers had to evaluate the worth to them (in terms of putting it together and/or the rules), before passing on the game. Another portion figured it'd sell better when Wave 2 arrived. Neither portion are likely to hold off next time. Now, whether those two groups plus the people who sold it immediately are significant or not, remains to be seen. But even if 5% of backers dump out immediately, that's still a lot of material people will want best money on, which COULD affect retail sales.
warboss wrote: My personal guess though is that they're just riding out the license clock and the too much of the money is gone because they spent it all on wave 1 stock sitting in their warehouse and they're in self preservation mode just like most of the rest of the past decade since the Crisis of TreacheryTM. The robotech slush fund... I mean kickstarter was just a brief respite and we now return you to the defacto desperate measures. Every man for himself! Grab a dice bag and RiftsTM monogrammed pencil on your way out! :(
What's the clock on the license? I thought it got renewed early-mid 2014? Even a five year license will have them going through 2019. And it'd take a complete business imbecile (ohhh.... right, it's Kevin) to take on a project like this one, without having enough follow time to take the lion's share of profit before the license lapsed. But then again, I would have figured they'd have locked down the long term license before starting the project so it wouldn't expire a couple of months past the original ETA. I mean, what would PB have done if it hadn't got renewed before they hit go on the production run.
Also, if KevCo think that if the license runs out, that'll be the end of it, because if Palladium can't produce anything, the backers shouldn't expect anything from them, and the backers will just accept the loss and move on, I think he's in for a rude awakening. But then again, I don't expect it to get that far. While some are pursuing legal remedies, if PB miss GenCon (given their revised "EOY or Q1, 2016"), I can see the tempo on the uncommitted escalating. Some aren't going to care, but if Wave 2 is two years late (it was initially due Oct 2014), without serious signs of movement (ie, production starting), that's when I predict the momentum will shift.
That's assuming that the current precursors to litigation don't gain traction. If they do, PB might not get much older.
They reaquired the license in 2007 but I don't know if they extended it or just expanded it with Tactics. I thought it was just an expansion of the license and not an extension from what they wrote before the kickstarter but I very easily could be wrong. If anyone can find the original press release talking about what they had to do to their RPG license to fit in tactics, feel free to post a link. In any case, the 10 year anniversary of the license would be in 2017.
It's just guessing on my part but frankly guessing has been more accurate than any statement from Palladium early on in this project. At this point, I'm expecting the worst (short of actually committing a crime of course) from Palladium as that is what they've been giving us for almost two years except for a few months.
My wife watches "Bar Rescue" religiously (though neither of us would ever set foot in one, go figure). I wish there was a "RPG Rescue" and their first target was Palladium.
It would be worth it for watching the host ripping Kevin a new one and shredding his illusion of the "rainbows and unicorn farts" worlds he's encased himself in.
Stormonu wrote: My wife watches "Bar Rescue" religiously (though neither of us would ever set foot in one, go figure). I wish there was a "RPG Rescue" and their first target was Palladium.
It would be worth it for watching the host ripping Kevin a new one and shredding his illusion of the "rainbows and unicorn farts" worlds he's encased himself in.
I think what sets a new level of insane is when faced with a narcissist, you want to see a truly big break from reality watch Ramsay's "Kitchen Nightmares" when he tries to save "Amy's Baking Company" first time he had to give up on a business:
Spoiler:
I think you would find the confrontation would not be as angry with Kevin but I am sure he would reject any and all advice since he IS the "expert".
Watch this video, honestly it is the strangest bit of reality of a business that should go under immediately but somehow thrives on controversy.
They actually became something of a sensation.
<edit> To stay somewhat on topic, people of this nature DO have a strong survival instinct so they will attend to what is important (balanced with their need for attention good or bad) but on occasion they can be self-destructive when circumstances cause too much pressure, hence why these "crisis of treachery" events get to be so severe for PB.
Don't get me wrong, exciting people to be around but unless you are willing to be their adoring fan, their only other use for you is to use you and throw you away.
This is why the litigation threats get such an extreme response: a "higher" authority gets to be involved which threatens their authority... they hate that.
Just watch in the video the multitude of ways Amy tries to tear-down Ramsay and justify why he is not worth listening to.
Kevin is not a narcissist, he's got a fragile ego/low self-esteem. This is why his fans/staff do what they can to protect him from negativity.
Imagine having a boss that could crash into angry resentment at having faced a reality that isn't always positive about him. That must suck.
The prehistoric animals kickstarter by Dina Walker has officially been the Amy's Baking Company of tabletop gaming for over a year. We'll have to find another comparison like Bill Murray's character from Kingpin.
You know what's the annoying things about the RRT updates? When you get a meaningful update about delays from another Kickstarter -- the HGB one that I also backed. Spoiler tags to keep things shorter:
Spoiler:
Sorry we have not posted any new updates in the last few weeks. We've been trying to figure out how to deal with some unexpected problems that have delayed the manufacture of the steel plastic injection molds.
So we'll bring everyone up to speed with this weeks update of whats going on. Back in early August we uploaded all the 3d model parts and plans for what parts get sprued together for each robot in the plastic injection molds. We then had to wait for a the company making the molds to have free space in their production line to look at the parts and get back to us with final sprue layouts. In early September they got back to us with notes on a few detail problems they found with the parts. Mainly some of the raised details being to small to be machined out in the molds and some small areas with knife edges. We knew that our first time making plastic injection molds would be a learning experience. Now we know that the smallest drill used by the machines to cut molds is 0.3 mm in diameter and when the cavity is cut into the mold it leaves a 0.15 mm rounded edge. We have some raised details that are 0.1 and 0.2 mm wide and they all need to be fixed up. Also when two of these round fillet edges are to close to one another the gap between them makes a very fine knife edge of steel in the mold. We have to fill in these areas or make them a bit wider, if we don't the knife edge can get broken off during mold polishing or in the popping of plastic and then that detail is gone from the miniature. In order to properly check all the hundreds of parts for potential problems, we have acquired a new software last week that enables us to preview a parts mold cavity. Our modelers are starting work on checking and making the fixes necessary for the parts to work in the molds and look great.
These fixes are going to take a few weeks to get them all done right. Our planned Backer rewards shipping starting in late October and November is going to get pushed back. We don't know the exact date yet, but once all the parts are fixed it will take about 1 to 2 months for the molds to be made. Then they can go into production, which will take another few weeks. So its not likely that we will able to ship in time for Christmas, but sometime in early 2016.
No buses involved, talking about technical problems that is understandable. Not perfect, but at least we know what is the holdup and what is the upcoming progress. And yes early 2016 is going to be a bust -- CNY period, so more likely late Q1 or mid 2016. Fine, at least we know something is happening. As oppose to knowing nothing is happening.
PB can learn a lot about updates just by backing a few KS themselves.
Not a narcissist?
How so?
The symptoms are there.
This site had been a good source of "therapy": http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.ca/2008/06/best-of-posts-on-narcissists-suck.html I watched the man talk to some 5 people and talked to him myself at Anime North.
I have had five of these "types" in various parts of my life, they become pretty easy to spot.
Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree.
The easiest rule to remember is "it is all about me" at it's most basic condition.
he's got a fragile ego/low self-esteem...
As many articles state it is a defense mechanism for a fragile ego/self-esteem.
You create a "false front" the all powerful super-being that they delude themselves into thinking they are, their shield against doubt and maintain self-worth.
I made the mistake of reading this book since it is like quibbling over details: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15298860902815451
This is why his fans/staff do what they can to protect him from negativity.
Those would be called "enablers" and sources of narcissistic supply.
Imagine having a boss that could crash into angry resentment at having faced a reality that isn't always positive about him.
If you have been raised by a narcissist, other ones gravitate to you... I had two bosses like that.
That must suck.
Oh yes it does.
Guess what is the only way to get them off your back?
To promise "I will make sure I will make you look good.".
If that is not the ultimate suck-up, nothing is.
It is not a small consideration that Kevin may look at this captive audience as a good thing.
As long as we communicate good or bad it is preferable to apathy and silence.
The legal threats and official shaming however attack his authority so that is a whole different communication he would like to silence or at least pretend is not there.
Kevin stated very clearly that he doesn't employ Yes men who blow smoke up his ass, that they all give him the hard criticism that he needs.
Sun and Clouds – April 2, 2014
That’s today’s forecast. And I think that’s how I’ve been feeling the last week or two. There have been moments when I’ve felt enthusiastic, positive and sunny, and other times that I’ve felt worn out and cloudy — gloomy and frustrated. I think a lot of that comes from working constantly, for months, putting in long hours, and working weekends, yet somehow we’re still behind schedule on new releases and release dates continue to slip. Waaaah. We’re a small company of six people, so when one book slips, they all get pushed back. It is as frustrating as Hell. Especially when you know you’re giving it your all, but your all isn't good enough. It brings you down.
While I am writing slower than I like, apparently it’s pure gold. Alex came in this morning to say, “The latest batch of Northern Gun material was great. I could really picture it all. I know you’re feeling like the writing isn’t coming easy, but you’d never know it from what you’re handing us. I think you’re at the top of your game. People are going to love this book.”
That’s great to hear, and it’s nice to have a cheerleader like Alex in your corner. You know, a guy who tells it like it is and doesn’t blow sunshine up your behind. So when he says something is good, you know it’s good. Heck, all the guys are like that. Some days I wish they were yes-men, but not really. I like getting honest criticism and feedback even when it is harsh at times. It’s what helps me keep the level of quality strong. Of course, I tend to be my harshest critic, so it’s good to know I’m hitting on all cylinders when I’m so not sure myself.
That’s part of the problem working on a big book (more than 160 pages), it’s like running a marathon. Toward the end, you’re running on instinct and sheer force of will. And that finish line can’t appear soon enough.
I finally feel like I’m getting my writing rhythm back. Yesterday was pretty productive and I’m feeling hot writing today, so I’m going to get back to it.
...
Kevin Siembieda Publisher, Writer and Game Designer
Rifts®, The Rifter®, RECON®, Splicers®, Palladium Books®, The Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game®, Phase World®, Nightbane®, Megaverse®, The Mechanoids®, The Mechanoid Invasion®, Coalition Wars® and After the Bomb® are Registered Trademarks of Palladium Books Inc. RPG Tactics™, Beyond the Supernatural, Chaos Earth, Coalition States, Dead Reign, Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, Minion War, Mysteries of Magic, SAMAS, Thundercloud Galaxy, Three Galaxies, Vampire Kingdoms, and other published book titles, names, slogans and likenesses are trademarks of Palladium Books Inc., and Kevin Siembieda.
Robotech® and Robotech® The Shadow Chronicles® are Registered Trademarks of Harmony Gold USA, Inc.
“The latest batch of Northern Gun material was great. I could really picture it all. I know you’re feeling like the writing isn’t coming easy, but you’d never know it from what you’re handing us. I think you’re at the top of your game. People are going to love this book.”
He must write really crappy dialogue, because *nobody* talks like this, clearest indicator that hes just making gak up.
You have to understand: at PB, they have very consistent (low) quality, so being "at the top of his game" simply means that it's not any worse than any of the other shoddy dreck he's shoveled out over the past X years.
It's like patting a kindergartner on the head for not pooping his pants. Attaboy, Kevin!
Sorry we have not posted any new updates in the last few weeks. We've been trying to figure out how to deal with some unexpected problems that have delayed the manufacture of the steel plastic injection molds.
So we'll bring everyone up to speed with this weeks update of whats going on. Back in early August we uploaded all the 3d model parts and plans for what parts get sprued together for each robot in the plastic injection molds. We then had to wait for a the company making the molds to have free space in their production line to look at the parts and get back to us with final sprue layouts. In early September they got back to us with notes on a few detail problems they found with the parts. Mainly some of the raised details being to small to be machined out in the molds and some small areas with knife edges. We knew that our first time making plastic injection molds would be a learning experience. Now we know that the smallest drill used by the machines to cut molds is 0.3 mm in diameter and when the cavity is cut into the mold it leaves a 0.15 mm rounded edge. We have some raised details that are 0.1 and 0.2 mm wide and they all need to be fixed up. Also when two of these round fillet edges are to close to one another the gap between them makes a very fine knife edge of steel in the mold. We have to fill in these areas or make them a bit wider, if we don't the knife edge can get broken off during mold polishing or in the popping of plastic and then that detail is gone from the miniature. In order to properly check all the hundreds of parts for potential problems, we have acquired a new software last week that enables us to preview a parts mold cavity. Our modelers are starting work on checking and making the fixes necessary for the parts to work in the molds and look great.
These fixes are going to take a few weeks to get them all done right. Our planned Backer rewards shipping starting in late October and November is going to get pushed back. We don't know the exact date yet, but once all the parts are fixed it will take about 1 to 2 months for the molds to be made. Then they can go into production, which will take another few weeks. So its not likely that we will able to ship in time for Christmas, but sometime in early 2016.
So this is all brand new difficulties and somehow didn't occur with wave one? Did they somehow change their process since they made wave one and adopt a totally new form of milling?
Weren't they suggesting that stuff was ready to go back around the beginning of spring? Yet we basically have a statement that they didn't even send out the files until Aug, and just not they are discovering that the details need to be corrected. Shouldn't they have reached an understanding of industry tolerances back when they resculpted the wave one items or did they throw out Kev's magic notepad?
Palladium must have some pretty strong binocular type glasses as they always seem to think they are within paces of the finish line when in reality they are standing well behind the starting blocks.
Stan, that update was from the Pod, for the Heavy Gear Blitz plastics, which they swore would deliver on time in November this year. This latest feth up pushes Heavy Gear plastcs to sometime next year. Don't hold your breath.
Earlier in the year, the Pod warned us how their KS renders weren't in the proper format for production, and how they needed to redo everything. But don't worry, everything will be fine. Minis are coming. Soon.
The amusing part is that the Pod is following the PB playbook to a tee. With the same claims and everything. I can't wait to hear how the Pod will have issues with port strikes and other nonsense.
Fortunately, I only threw a buck in the hat with the Pod, unlike the more substantial amount I put into Robotech Tactics.
Sorry we have not posted any new updates in the last few weeks. We've been trying to figure out how to deal with some unexpected problems that have delayed the manufacture of the steel plastic injection molds.
So we'll bring everyone up to speed with this weeks update of whats going on. Back in early August we uploaded all the 3d model parts and plans for what parts get sprued together for each robot in the plastic injection molds. We then had to wait for a the company making the molds to have free space in their production line to look at the parts and get back to us with final sprue layouts. In early September they got back to us with notes on a few detail problems they found with the parts. Mainly some of the raised details being to small to be machined out in the molds and some small areas with knife edges. We knew that our first time making plastic injection molds would be a learning experience. Now we know that the smallest drill used by the machines to cut molds is 0.3 mm in diameter and when the cavity is cut into the mold it leaves a 0.15 mm rounded edge. We have some raised details that are 0.1 and 0.2 mm wide and they all need to be fixed up. Also when two of these round fillet edges are to close to one another the gap between them makes a very fine knife edge of steel in the mold. We have to fill in these areas or make them a bit wider, if we don't the knife edge can get broken off during mold polishing or in the popping of plastic and then that detail is gone from the miniature. In order to properly check all the hundreds of parts for potential problems, we have acquired a new software last week that enables us to preview a parts mold cavity. Our modelers are starting work on checking and making the fixes necessary for the parts to work in the molds and look great.
These fixes are going to take a few weeks to get them all done right. Our planned Backer rewards shipping starting in late October and November is going to get pushed back. We don't know the exact date yet, but once all the parts are fixed it will take about 1 to 2 months for the molds to be made. Then they can go into production, which will take another few weeks. So its not likely that we will able to ship in time for Christmas, but sometime in early 2016.
So this is all brand new difficulties and somehow didn't occur with wave one? Did they somehow change their process since they made wave one and adopt a totally new form of milling?
Weren't they suggesting that stuff was ready to go back around the beginning of spring? Yet we basically have a statement that they didn't even send out the files until Aug, and just not they are discovering that the details need to be corrected. Shouldn't they have reached an understanding of industry tolerances back when they resculpted the wave one items or did they throw out Kev's magic notepad?
Palladium must have some pretty strong binocular type glasses as they always seem to think they are within paces of the finish line when in reality they are standing well behind the starting blocks.
Everything looks good to me!
that was from another project, where they don't keep secrets unlike the RRT project.
Sorry we have not posted any new updates in the last few weeks. We've been trying to figure out how to deal with some unexpected problems that have delayed the manufacture of the steel plastic injection molds.
So we'll bring everyone up to speed with this weeks update of whats going on. Back in early August we uploaded all the 3d model parts and plans for what parts get sprued together for each robot in the plastic injection molds. We then had to wait for a the company making the molds to have free space in their production line to look at the parts and get back to us with final sprue layouts. In early September they got back to us with notes on a few detail problems they found with the parts. Mainly some of the raised details being to small to be machined out in the molds and some small areas with knife edges. We knew that our first time making plastic injection molds would be a learning experience. Now we know that the smallest drill used by the machines to cut molds is 0.3 mm in diameter and when the cavity is cut into the mold it leaves a 0.15 mm rounded edge. We have some raised details that are 0.1 and 0.2 mm wide and they all need to be fixed up. Also when two of these round fillet edges are to close to one another the gap between them makes a very fine knife edge of steel in the mold. We have to fill in these areas or make them a bit wider, if we don't the knife edge can get broken off during mold polishing or in the popping of plastic and then that detail is gone from the miniature. In order to properly check all the hundreds of parts for potential problems, we have acquired a new software last week that enables us to preview a parts mold cavity. Our modelers are starting work on checking and making the fixes necessary for the parts to work in the molds and look great.
These fixes are going to take a few weeks to get them all done right. Our planned Backer rewards shipping starting in late October and November is going to get pushed back. We don't know the exact date yet, but once all the parts are fixed it will take about 1 to 2 months for the molds to be made. Then they can go into production, which will take another few weeks. So its not likely that we will able to ship in time for Christmas, but sometime in early 2016.
So this is all brand new difficulties and somehow didn't occur with wave one? Did they somehow change their process since they made wave one and adopt a totally new form of milling?
Weren't they suggesting that stuff was ready to go back around the beginning of spring? Yet we basically have a statement that they didn't even send out the files until Aug, and just not they are discovering that the details need to be corrected. Shouldn't they have reached an understanding of industry tolerances back when they resculpted the wave one items or did they throw out Kev's magic notepad?
Palladium must have some pretty strong binocular type glasses as they always seem to think they are within paces of the finish line when in reality they are standing well behind the starting blocks.
Everything looks good to me!
Your posted pic is quite ironic. You need to reread that post as it is from the HEAVY GEAR kickstarter and being posted as an example of screwing up but coming clean and being honest with backers.
“The latest batch of Northern Gun material was great. I could really picture it all. I know you’re feeling like the writing isn’t coming easy, but you’d never know it from what you’re handing us. I think you’re at the top of your game. People are going to love this book.”
He must write really crappy dialogue, because *nobody* talks like this, clearest indicator that hes just making gak up.
Yeah, that's struck me as well.
Which, taken to its logical conclusion, must make for a simply fascinating work environment.
Knowing that you'll be "quoted" to an audience of hundreds/thousands (even between the population of their forums and the KS backers who were signed up (or re-signed up), 10k, let alone "tens of thousands" seems awfully generous) now and then would be interesting.
Going home Thursday night, pondering "I wonder what made up bullgak I've said today?"
“The latest batch of Northern Gun material was great. I could really picture it all. I know you’re feeling like the writing isn’t coming easy, but you’d never know it from what you’re handing us. I think you’re at the top of your game. People are going to love this book.”
He must write really crappy dialogue, because *nobody* talks like this, clearest indicator that hes just making gak up.
Yeah, that's struck me as well.
Which, taken to its logical conclusion, must make for a simply fascinating work environment.
Knowing that you'll be "quoted" to an audience of hundreds/thousands (even between the population of their forums and the KS backers who were signed up (or re-signed up), 10k, let alone "tens of thousands" seems awfully generous) now and then would be interesting.
Going home Thursday night, pondering "I wonder what made up bullgak I've said today?"
Yeah, the way he 'quotes' people makes me wonder what he sounds like in real life. I imagine hes like one of those vintage cartoon characters that says stuff like 'So you know what I says to him? I says "Bobby", thats what I calls him, I calls him Bobby, so I says to him, "Bobby,..."'
The amusing part is that the Pod is following the PB playbook to a tee. With the same claims and everything. I can't wait to hear how the Pod will have issues with port strikes and other nonsense.
I do see where you're pointing to, but well.. we'll see. A bit more confidence in Pod than PB to be honest. At least some info is coming out. Whereas PB updates is just opening and closing of mouth parts.
Agreed. While it is a (sadly) common thing to have KS's delayed, not every delayed KS is equal.
PB is late by what is approaching 2 years (and 3 seems very possible). That's an awfully high bar to clear right there.
They have literally nothing to show off after 7 months of work, noting a few months of things being held up after a few months is a wee bit more than that.
I see people whinge about (my admittedly beloved) Shadows of Brimstone campaign, as though they're equally bad as gakshows like this, which seems like an awfully Black and White way of viewing things.
SoB (as a go-to example) actually has things to show off! Dozens of figures done, new cards, a new large box expansion and a bunch of smaller ones, new mechanics, a little 'bling', and that was just what they showed off after 1 year of work (Gencon 2014 to Gencon 2015), and it's hopeful that there'll be even more progress in the ~2 months since then.
People keep equating "omg they didn't do everything in 12 months omg omg" with "umm, we're pushing 2.5 years and it's not impossible that they'll hit 4 years of work or more".
It's a view lacking nuance, and makes one seem unpleaseable. Why bother trying to please someone who will take considerable efforts and gak all over them?
I've even tossed appreciation PB's way when they manage to not step on their own di... wangs. Sadly those opportunities have been few and far in between of late.
OTOH, PB did deliver Wave 1. Late, to be sure, and more fiddly than anybody had imagined possible, but they did deliver the base Robotech game - I've got the model built and everything.
We're still waiting to see what / if / when the Pod delivers.
PB delivered wave one ~1 year late (a month or two early for some US folks, weeks or months later for the rest of us).
If Pod manages to deliver their entire lineup in less than half a year late, I'd consider that a considerable win for them.
But I skipped that KS entirely, barely have enough time to play the games I have let alone pick up more, so while it's interesting to see another stompy robot thing going on (and I've always had HG on the periphery of my interests), I'll just keep my fingers crossed for them and their backers that things don't get too far out of hand.
Having glanced at the full update, it's also nice to see images and read about the concerns/considerations and resolutions. Better to know what is actually going on than with PB where it's just a vague hand waving 'trimming the parts count' statement.
It's awfully cynical how they assume that "oh, well then, if you're trimming the parts count(tm) then do take all the time in the world, chaps!"
Context is important. Are they cutting the Super VT's down from 45 pieces to 15? Awesome! Are they only managing to trim down from 30 to 29? Then stop wasting our time!
But as long as they remain vague and comment on something they know is contentious, they seem to think it's a balm to salve all concerns forever.
They've been banging that drum for months now. They're simplifying plastic figures, not researching a new element.
Oh, I'm sorry, Robotech mecha are an unholy Lovecraftian nightmare that has eldritch angles and Escher'esque detailing that most machines (let alone mortal minds) can't comprehend, let alone reproduce. :-P
Lynx7725 wrote: No buses involved, talking about technical problems that is understandable. Not perfect, but at least we know what is the holdup and what is the upcoming progress. And yes early 2016 is going to be a bust -- CNY period, so more likely late Q1 or mid 2016. Fine, at least we know something is happening. As oppose to knowing nothing is happening.
PB can learn a lot about updates just by backing a few KS themselves.
While I still hold some reservations regarding DP9 and that project, I just wanted to interject on one thing. To my recollection, CNY won't have any impact on delivery, as the whole point behind the initial optimistic timeframe was that production would be handled by a North American company. So while Thanksgiving and Christmas might add some minor delays, it's not the same thing as CNY affecting Chinese manufacturing.
While I still hold some reservations regarding DP9 and that project, I just wanted to interject on one thing. To my recollection, CNY won't have any impact on delivery, as the whole point behind the initial optimistic timeframe was that production would be handled by a North American company. So while Thanksgiving and Christmas might add some minor delays, it's not the same thing as CNY affecting Chinese manufacturing.
Oh yeah, right. For some reason I injected "Chinese" before the "manufacturing" in that update. Yeah so shouldn't be that impacted.
PBOTOH, if they aren't cutting steel by now, is simply going to run into the end-of-year crush. Odds on when they'd announce the delay?
What we keep pointing to as the most maddening element of dealing with PB is the relationship.
Paternal.
Daddy KS is handling it and he will let us know when he is ready.
It is rather insulting for a person to try to position themselves as an authority when they have proven to be rather inept at so many things.
I do not think we have ever been acknowledged as "customers" only as "fans" which is trying to make us appear to hold them in high regard.
Then this entitled individual decides to "tell me" what my money is worth and what I am entitled to.
I can see how some people are exploring the legal route just to take all this garbage out of his hands because if he has his way he would happily pocket the money and give nothing if he thought he could get away with it.
I had hoped greed was important enough to try to get the wave 2 product out but since the wave 1 starter box did not sell as was expected, he figures wave 2 is a losing proposition.
Too bad I have a family, if I was still single I would have had zero issue blowing a fair bit of money just to make an example of these guys as a public service.
Ah well, we all have our hobbies and they tend to have a budget.
Talizvar wrote: Too bad I have a family, if I was still single I would have had zero issue blowing a fair bit of money just to make an example of these guys as a public service.
Ah well, we all have our hobbies and they tend to have a budget.
If only there was a mechanism whereby a crowd could pool their monies to do something collectively....
Wait, are we discussing starting a kickstarter campaign to sue kickstarter? Or a kickstarter campaign to sue a company for failure to deliver on the kickstarter? Are we opening up ourselves for an additional kickstarter fueled lawsuit if we fail to demonstrate Palladium has done what we accuse them of or fail to deliver expected legal recourse?
Neither one of us is a psychologist, right?
To me, it is obvious that he has a fragile ego. Kevin is completely unable to take even mild criticism - not because he disagrees with it but because he does; he is always defensive, always taking even the slightest complaint personally, he looks to business partners and employees to give him personal validation and cannot separate business from non-business relationships; he hides himself from anything that may be construed as negative, he has cushioned himself in a bubble that protects him.
When unhappy backers force him to give us information, it's never a discussion of the project, it's always a personal defense of himself. He doesn't come across as feeling he is better than us, he comes across as feeling beleaguered and attacked. "Stop trying to hurt me."
We can disagree and see different things.
To me, he has a low opinion of himself and tries to shield himself from a world he is afraid agrees with him.
I've already taken that as given. It's not so much a fear, as an expectation now. I consider myself lucky in that I was never after the game as a game, I just wanted some iconic RT models at a scale I can easily display.
So it looks like I will not get the character models I wanted. I might be able to get a standard VT pack to paint up as Rick's and Roy's mecha, maybe I'll even get some Zent stuff too. And I've already got my pre-order in for a wonderful SDF-1 from HLJ to go with my old Revell kit of it in destroid form.
So all in all, disappointed that PB did the old 'Bait and Switch' routine, led us all up the garden path with the "It's all totally 98% done BEFORE we launch the Kickstarter" line, and so far have left me paying $145 for a small set of decals that I'll probably never use as I'll not have the models of the correct scale to use them.
Having said that, however, my expectations on this project are so low now that IF PB ever deliver anything else, it'll be a very nice surprise for me.
God, looks like I was lucky when I sold my wave 1 for $300 this past winter...
Still hoping for wave two (maybe it will be real late like kingdom death or shadows of brimstone... which I am still waiting for), then I can recoup some of that as well.
Well, this is... weird. All this time fething around and not even giving backers a digital version of the rules, and now they are releasing "A free set of basic rules and paper miniatures that will be made available online".
That kinda came out of left field, TBH. Hints of desperation?
Albertorius wrote: Well, this is... weird. All this time fething around and not even giving backers a digital version of the rules, and now they are releasing "A free set of basic rules and paper miniatures that will be made available online".
That kinda came out of left field, TBH. Hints of desperation?
Did I miss a kickstarter update or palladium weekly sales pitch? I'll have to check my junk mail; maybe Microsoft is even classifying them as junk.
Albertorius wrote: Well, this is... weird. All this time fething around and not even giving backers a digital version of the rules, and now they are releasing "A free set of basic rules and paper miniatures that will be made available online".
That kinda came out of left field, TBH. Hints of desperation?
Did I miss a kickstarter update or palladium weekly sales pitch? I'll have to check my junk mail; maybe Microsoft is even classifying them as junk.
Not as of this posting. They've got a couple of hours before it's Saturday, missing a PBWU, and not having a KS Update in literally four weeks. Cause it's not like the promised to try to do more.
What Albertorius is referering to, has been mentioned in KS Update 186, and every PB Weekly Update since August 27th.
We will be posting the following in the weeks ahead:
Wave Two Gallery – available now. It contains images of many of the sculpts sent to China for engineering and tooling. We post the gallery as a reminder of the good things yet to come in Wave Two.
Actual cards for Wave Two game pieces.
Force Organization Charts.
Stats for Conventional Combat Vehicles (pre-Robotech).
Expanded rules, errata, and clarifications.
A free set of basic rules and paper miniatures will be made available online.
More photos of painted minis.
And we’ll try to do more Kickstarter updates.
Except, oh, they did promise. They managed just the "quick note" about the DriveThru PDF cards, and then resorted to form.
The list has been cut and pasted every PB Weekly Update since, except they changed the "Actual cards..." thing for "More cards for Wave Two game pieces.", added "Organized play and demo package.", and removed the timeframe at the top from "weeks ahead" to an even less specific "More things coming your way for RRT:".
Ah, thanks. I missed that and it's not the first time. I guess I just gloss over what they send me at this point and if the skimming sounds familiar I skip it. Only the most egregious douchebaggery catches my attention anymore apparently. Thanks for the special update for a special reader. I actually don't think coming out with free "starter" rules or even the complete rules is a bad idea but as usual palladium catches onto what others suggested a full year after the fact. It can't hurt but I don't think it'll help too much either. I guess we'll see.
warboss wrote: Ah, thanks. I missed that and it's not the first time. I guess I just gloss over what they send me at this point and if the skimming sounds familiar I skip it. Only the most egregious douchebaggery catches my attention anymore apparently. Thanks for the special update for a special reader. I actually don't think coming out with free "starter" rules or even the complete rules is a bad idea but as usual palladium catches onto what others suggested a full year after the fact. It can't hurt but I don't think it'll help too much either. I guess we'll see.
Regarding glossing over, I tend to do the same, most times. Heck, it's only when someone else points out something egregious, that I look a little deeper.
On the "a full year" thing, if it hasn't happened yet, it'll happen shortly that it'll soon be two full years. Don't know the date, but Mr. Dachi nee Kendachi was asking for it very early on (comparatively speaking) in the campaign. Am pretty sure it was still 2013 though.
Albertorius wrote: Well, this is... weird. All this time fething around and not even giving backers a digital version of the rules, and now they are releasing "A free set of basic rules and paper miniatures that will be made available online".
That kinda came out of left field, TBH. Hints of desperation?
Actually no, this is them realizing I had a good idea and finally saying, "Oh crap! We should have listened"....
I think I made that around March. Since they did not want to release the full PDF I strongly suggested this several times and them wrote my own as an example.
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warboss wrote: Ah, thanks. I missed that and it's not the first time. I guess I just gloss over what they send me at this point and if the skimming sounds familiar I skip it. Only the most egregious douchebaggery catches my attention anymore apparently. Thanks for the special update for a special reader. I actually don't think coming out with free "starter" rules or even the complete rules is a bad idea but as usual palladium catches onto what others suggested a full year after the fact. It can't hurt but I don't think it'll help too much either. I guess we'll see.
I think it was a few months before GenCon last year that I bugged them about this a few times and then after new year a few times more.
If you look there are a lot of pages that are paper cut outs and also the stat cards. I also added a lot of pictures that I took or grabbed on the internet. This was only meant to be an example of what should be made since most of those images were borrowed online and in no way truly useable.
Mike, just to comment that this is so much better than the actual rulebook - it has the rules, examples and even the essentail QRef sheets- if only PB had followed a similar format
In this format you would have had a chance to play a few games with the paper proxies while assembling the actual models.
wilycoyote wrote: Mike, just to comment that this is so much better than the actual rulebook - it has the rules, examples and even the essentail QRef sheets- if only PB had followed a similar format
In this format you would have had a chance to play a few games with the paper proxies while assembling the actual models.
Thanks for your efforts to keep this game going.
Sigh, yeah if we had not reminded them we would not have even had the page guide in the front. :(
wilycoyote wrote: Mike, just to comment that this is so much better than the actual rulebook - it has the rules, examples and even the essentail QRef sheets- if only PB had followed a similar format
In this format you would have had a chance to play a few games with the paper proxies while assembling the actual models.
Thanks for your efforts to keep this game going.
Sigh, yeah if we had not reminded them we would not have even had the page guide in the front. :(
They didn't think about putting in a table of contents on their own?
wilycoyote wrote: Mike, just to comment that this is so much better than the actual rulebook - it has the rules, examples and even the essentail QRef sheets- if only PB had followed a similar format
In this format you would have had a chance to play a few games with the paper proxies while assembling the actual models.
Thanks for your efforts to keep this game going.
Sigh, yeah if we had not reminded them we would not have even had the page guide in the front. :(
They didn't think about putting in a table of contents on their own?
I'd love to say I'm surprised that such a new fangled invention like the table of contents didn't occur to Palladium but that would be a lie. I guess that makes at least two things that they haven't grasped the concept and use of after 30 years in the business along with a calendar.
wilycoyote wrote: Mike, just to comment that this is so much better than the actual rulebook - it has the rules, examples and even the essentail QRef sheets- if only PB had followed a similar format
In this format you would have had a chance to play a few games with the paper proxies while assembling the actual models.
Thanks for your efforts to keep this game going.
Sigh, yeah if we had not reminded them we would not have even had the page guide in the front. :(
They didn't think about putting in a table of contents on their own?
I'd love to say I'm surprised that such a new fangled invention like the table of contents didn't occur to Palladium but that would be a lie. I guess that makes at least two things that they haven't grasped the concept and use of after 30 years in the business along with a calendar.
No they get table of content they were just hope to sell another book to you with the table of content in it like they do for the Rifts line.
So, it doesn't look like there'll be a KS Update this weekend. Here's their commitment to keeping backers informed since their last KS Update.
PBWU, Sept 10th, "And we’ll try to do more Kickstarter updates."
PBWU, Sept 18th, "And we’ll try to do more Kickstarter updates."
PBWU, Sept 24th, "And we’ll try to do more Kickstarter updates."
PBWU, Oct 2nd, "And we’ll try to do more Kickstarter updates."
They may be trying, but they're failing. Badly. And consistently.
Hopefully they're not going to get even more complacent (is that even possible?) with the apparent lack of engagement by the Michigan AG.
From what Stormonu posted over on the KS Comments, there was this bit that I think is important.
"The information you submitted will be retained in our department files to assist us in responding to future consumer inquiries and to monitor possible patterns of unfair or deceptive business practices.".
So, while the current claim may have been quashed, they've left a door open by which they'll reconsider should more people come forth.
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Additionally, I think PB is shooting themselves in the foot with their responses to the BBB and Michigan AG regarding claiming retail value of product sent.
From a comparative perspective.
Provided: Book/counters/cards/dice and 2/3 of the miniatures by count
Remaining: 1/3 of the miniatures by count
Arguable refund: 25% (counting all non miniatures as a quarter of the box) of $130US, or just over $30US (on a pledge of $130US)
Less if they argue the book/counters/cards/dice is worth more than a quarter
From their declared perspective.
Provided = 1x Base Box, 2x Valkyrie boxes, 2x BattlePod Boxes, 1x Zentradi Command, 1x Zentradi Artillery, 1x S/P Destroid = 100 + 74 + 74 + 33 + 33 + 33 = 347 provided (they claim 354.60)
Remaining: 4 Character Models, 3 Gnerl, 3MPA, 3FPA, 2SVA, 2Lancer, 2 Ghost = 88 + 22 + 33 + 45 + 52 + 33 + 33 = 306 remaining (all prices based on the initial listed prices, vs the current MSRP prices).
Arguable refund = ~45% of $130US, or just over $60US.
I can't see how anyone can argue that what you paid for at a specified discount can be fulfilled by counting value at MSRP (though Kevin appears to be doing just that), so it arguably comes down to proportionality. And by using retail, they've potentially cost themselves twice as much as they might otherwise have. That's assuming of course, that the partially fulfilled component is worth anything. According to the ToU for Kickstarter at the time, "Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.". Arguably, they haven't fulfilled a Battlecry. If they don't, it's entirely possible (but highly unlikely) that a literal interpretation means they owe full $130 per BC ($120 for those at Showdown/Reckless) might be legally feasible. Which would be a hilarious precedent.
Oh god, it actually does have the line you quoted in each one!
I thought you might have typed it for comedic effect.
I guess Kevin typed it for comedic effect.
JohnHwangDD wrote: OK and the $40 they collected for my Monster? If they're doing refunds, I'd expect the full $40 back.
Oh, anything ordered and still outstanding (ie anything beyond the 6 retail expansion boxes that I can't see more than a handful of people picking up) would be due a full refund. I was only calculating out the one partial item, the Battlecry. That's likely to be the biggest point of contention, as it's only partially fulfilled, and likely makes up the majority of funding.
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Joyboozer wrote: Oh god, it actually does have the line you quoted in each one!
I thought you might have typed it for comedic effect.
I guess Kevin typed it for comedic effect.
Yup. All there. Though I doubt Kevin did it for comedic effect (though the effect is to make us laugh AT him).
It's a copy/paste, that he doesn't even bother to check. It's an ongoing issue that goes back to when I paid attention at the start of the campaign. He'd occasionally copy/paste release dates, and not check to see that they'd passed. I think I recall a February 2014 release date for the Colonial Marines, that was posted in an April 2014 PBWU. It, like most things Palladium, is laughed at, not laughed with.
$50 for the 27 undelivered minis from my Battlecry pledge
this will be a limited time offer.
This project has been run with no regard for the backers and has been lack luster in information, the backers have been mistreated and misled, and if forced to I will take this to all legal extremes I have to, i've got the ball rolling and only have to wait till Dec. to finish it.
the ball is in your court, your choice. refund me my money or come up with actual facts and evidence of anything being done on wave 2 or I will seek legal remedies.
now for those of you who insist PB is not out of money, wouldn't it be a smart move on their part to refund my $120 since I am supposedly the ring leader and/or mastermind behind all the gak they are now getting, for a mere $120 they could be rid of me, and yet they are not, so either they lied about me being the mastermind and will try to use me as a scape goat later, or they just don't have the money, which do you think it is?
Placing a bet on that would be tacit admission that you believe 100% that palladium will finish delivering in full on the kickstarter eventually. I abstain.
So I backed the draken 3d printer kickstarter on Feb 15th of this year and just received the printer. A company was able to make the thing that makes all the things faster than wave 2.
Swabby wrote: So I backed the draken 3d printer kickstarter on Feb 15th of this year and just received the printer. A company was able to make the thing that makes all the things faster than wave 2.
I'm printing all the macross minis I want!
lucky you, me I still have to send my files into SW and get them printed thru them, but do have a Cats eye a new armored VF version and some invid along with other stuff being printed right now.
Swabby wrote: So I backed the draken 3d printer kickstarter on Feb 15th of this year and just received the printer. A company was able to make the thing that makes all the things faster than wave 2.
I'm printing all the macross minis I want!
Post a review/start a thread somewhere once you've had a chance to mess around with it. I've been curious about this one, theoretically the numbers (resolution wise) are there for miniatures printing, but some of the photos I've seen of its output looked like it still wasnt quite fine enough to do finely detailed minis.
As a backer pointed out in the KS Comments, there's actual information in this weeks PBWU.
"As for Wave Two, we continue to explore our options with regard to manufacturing and reduced piece count. We thought we had something that would work, but some concerns have been raised and we are looking into it more as well as into other options."
That information being that some of the progress forward, has stalled, if not gone backwards. No mention of a new timeline, or even an abandonment of the old one. But if they're looking into other options, the Adepticon based "End of Year" is well and truly done, and I don't see Q1 even being close to realistic. At this point, Q2 might be unattainable too, if one of those options is changing manufacturers. But it's unclear WHAT those concerns and options are, as in typical PB fashion, they're vague as hell, "plenty of behind the scenes insight" be damned.
That's of course giving the benefit of the doubt that PB actually intend to complete Wave 2. If you don't believe that's the case, obviously it's just more pablum from Pablumium Books.
Joyboozer wrote: Anyone else think the something they thought would work was a response from a manufacturer that was later explained to them as sarcasm?
Could be anything, really.
"We thought we could simplify things by making the miniatures out of tapioca. But that didn't turn out to be a valid option."
"After much consideration and research, making them out of LEGO(TM) wasn't viable. Nor was making them out of K'Nex, Megablox or Meccano. Because we wanted to explore all options."
"We attempted to pay the amount owed our manufacturers for Wave 2 with signed Palladium RPG titles, and back issues of the Rifter. But they declined (bad move on their part, right?), and we're scrambling to find the funds between our sofa cushions.".
"Kevin had us sit in a circle, hold hands, close our eyes, and *wish* Wave 2 into existence. Didn't work like it did back in '06. Kevin thinks the unpaid intern wasn't wishing hard enough, so he was let go. Kevin wanted to dock his pay too, and didn't understand why that wasn't possible. So, he settled for firing Jeff again.".
"We tried to change manufacturers, because you know, 'those guys' weren't doing their jobs. We've been patient, but they're obviously not capable of dealing with Kevin's genius. For some reason though, with every other manufacturer we contacted, after we explained the situation, the work required and our budget moving forward, there was this weird 'bwahahaha' sound, and we got disconnected. Must be an issue with Chinese telecommunication infrastructure, or something."
Morgan Vening wrote: As a backer pointed out in the KS Comments, there's actual information in this weeks PBWU.
"As for Wave Two, we continue to explore our options with regard to manufacturing and reduced piece count. We thought we had something that would work, but some concerns have been raised and we are looking into it more as well as into other options."
That should read as follows.
"As for Wave Two, we continure to [gaze at our navels] with regard to manufacturing [single piece cubic blocks and giving you guys a miniature hammer and chisel so you can carve them yourselves as that's about all we can afford]. We thought that would work, but [Kevin said that would break our promise of mouth-watering detail] and we are looking [at our navels again] as well as [our intestines from the inside]."
I just figured they switched topics mid paragraph and forgot to mention it.
As for Wave Two, we continue to explore our options with regard to manufacturing and reduced piece count. For lunch, we thought we had something that would work (chinese), but some concerns have been raised (MSG? Can we comp it to the Robotech KS since we spent 5 total minutes right before on wave 2 this week?) and we are looking into it more as well as into other options like Subway.
Palladium is looking for licensing opportunities (and partners) for our many I.P.s. We would especially love to see licenses for Rifts®, Splicers®, Nightbane®, Heroes Unlimited, BTS, and . . . well, all our I.P.s as board games, miniature games, card games, videogames, etc. In the meanwhile, we’re excited about the upcoming adaptation of the Rifts® RPG to the Savage Worlds® game system.
A RIFTS tactical battle game would be pretty cool. Too bad it'll never happen, as PB lacks the money; nobody would back it if PB did the KS; and PB won't let go of their baby.
JohnHwangDD wrote: A RIFTS tactical battle game would be pretty cool. Too bad it'll never happen, as PB lacks the money; nobody would back it if PB did the KS; and PB won't let go of their baby.
Well, they tried those minis before. Sold as well as Pet Rocks....in 1985.
JohnHwangDD wrote: A RIFTS tactical battle game would be pretty cool. Too bad it'll never happen, as PB lacks the money; nobody would back it if PB did the KS; and PB won't let go of their baby.
Well, they tried those minis before. Sold as well as Pet Rocks....in 1985.
Pet rocks had better sculpted detail than most Rifts minis. I had a bunch.
Cyporiean wrote: Last year there was a group attempting to make a RIFTs minis game, but it fell through because Palladium is terrible to work with.
Don't be ridiculous. The current employees and freelancers all say Kevin is fair and kind and generous and loving and talented and especially a straight shooter. Kevin told us so.
Stormonu wrote: This joke of a KS has ceased being funny. Now their progress reports are nothing but steps backward (not that I even trust they are true anymore).
It it really a step backward if they were "advertising" all those potential steps forward back in the Spring but never actually bothered to move their feet in the 6 months since? The remainder of the rewards in this kickstarter are treading water like the folks who initially got off of the Titanic after it went under. The longer the "rescue" takes, less of them actually end up making it to shore before they succumb from other things beyond just wave 1 hit the iceberg upon release.
Stormonu wrote: This joke of a KS has ceased being funny. Now their progress reports are nothing but steps backward (not that I even trust they are true anymore).
It it really a step backward if they were "advertising" all those potential steps forward back in the Spring but never actually bothered to move their feet in the 6 months since? The remainder of the rewards in this kickstarter are treading water like the folks who initially got off of the Titanic after it went under. The longer the "rescue" takes, less of them actually end up making it to shore before they succumb from other things beyond just wave 1 hit the iceberg upon release.
I would think "here's the sprue layout for five items" to "nah, we're not going to do it that way because we want less parts" is a step back.
Wow, and here I thought this game would just explode and become immensely popular... The kickstarter was huge, were they hoping for massive retail support too? What was the big cost in this?
I have received many kickstarters with more minis that were better detailed (or better quality plastic) in half the time.
Soooo glad I sold my wave 1 and recouped 80% of my kickstarter cost.
This is how I imagine the typical PB workday goes.
After stumbling into work they do a few order fulfillments and fill out paperwork. Mid- to late-morning Kevin invites everyone to watch a movie in the warehouse or some really funny youtube videos he has been bookmarking all morning.
After the videos, extended lunch.
After lunch, they sit around the conference room gaming.
Post-gaming includes cleaning up and perhaps some late afternoon order fulfillment.
If the gaming session or the movie was inspiring to Kevin, then he gets a brainstorm that means actual worktime. Wayne calls his family to say it wll be a late night.
Nonsense. That schedule leaves no time to update fanfriends on and photoshop pics of the various fowl and wildlife in the parking lot. Then there is the Stuart Smiley Affirmation that every employee must give their boss daily in orde to qualify for a paycheck. Plus you must leave at least an hour in the day to gripe about those ungrateful curs that they graciously let back their kickstarter and are now unreasonably demanding rewards within several years of the advertised completion date. Oh, and the 5 minute brainstorming/google search about what to do with Robotech so that they can technically say they're "working" on robotech to satisfy the minimum legal requirements in their opinion.
n815e wrote: This is how I imagine the typical PB workday goes.
After stumbling into work they do a few order fulfillments and fill out paperwork. Mid- to late-morning Kevin invites everyone to watch a movie in the warehouse or some really funny youtube videos he has been bookmarking all morning.
After the videos, extended lunch.
After lunch, they sit around the conference room gaming.
Post-gaming includes cleaning up and perhaps some late afternoon order fulfillment.
If the gaming session or the movie was inspiring to Kevin, then he gets a brainstorm that means actual worktime. Wayne calls his family to say it wll be a late night.
Kevin (and others around him) have repeatedly said that he doesn't have time for gaming anymore. I'll take a moment to let that sink in...
n815e wrote: This is how I imagine the typical PB workday goes.
After stumbling into work they do a few order fulfillments and fill out paperwork. Mid- to late-morning Kevin invites everyone to watch a movie in the warehouse or some really funny youtube videos he has been bookmarking all morning.
After the videos, extended lunch.
After lunch, they sit around the conference room gaming.
Post-gaming includes cleaning up and perhaps some late afternoon order fulfillment.
If the gaming session or the movie was inspiring to Kevin, then he gets a brainstorm that means actual worktime. Wayne calls his family to say it wll be a late night.
Kevin (and others around him) have repeatedly said that he doesn't have time for gaming anymore. I'll take a moment to let that sink in...
The rest is probably accurate.
They best part is even when he played his own settings he didn't use the RAW.
Palladium is looking for licensing opportunities (and partners) for our many I.P.s. We would especially love to see licenses for Rifts®, Splicers®, Nightbane®, Heroes Unlimited, BTS, and . . . well, all our I.P.s as board games, miniature games, card games, videogames, etc. In the meanwhile, we’re excited about the upcoming adaptation of the Rifts® RPG to the Savage Worlds® game system.
I've been staying out of commenting on this thread due to my role on the Palladium Forums. However, I felt the need to clear up something here so that folks don't get the wrong idea.
Palladium has been very public in that they have been working on getting their IPs licensed since at least the mid 1990s. There has been limited progress(ie Rfts movie option has been renewed several times but not been turned into a movie yet, the Promise of Power game was released and was really good, but the platform failed to achieve commercial success, Dream Pod 9 made a series of books in support of Palladium's Macross II RPG offering . . .).
Calling the statement desperation would imply that this is something new in response to the current situation. The only thing new in that statement is the announcement of the Savage Worlds licensed Rifts product. This statement about licencing is business as usual for Palladium.
Jefffar wrote: I've been staying out of commenting on this thread due to my role on the Palladium Forums. However, I felt the need to clear up something here so that folks don't get the wrong idea.
Palladium has been very public in that they have been working on getting their IPs licensed since at least the mid 1990s. There has been limited progress(ie Rfts movie option has been renewed several times but not been turned into a movie yet, the Promise of Power game was released and was really good, but the platform failed to achieve commercial success, Dream Pod 9 made a series of books in support of Palladium's Macross II RPG offering . . .).
Calling the statement desperation would imply that this is something new in response to the current situation. The only thing new in that statement is the announcement of the Savage Worlds licensed Rifts product. This statement about licencing is business as usual for Palladium.
Appreciate the position you're in here. But you've also got to understand the backer's position. Or at least those portion of backers that no longer have faith in what PB says. There's two parts.
First, the claim that they're "actively working" on the project (as per their BBB/Michigan AG responses, as well as the few times they've mentioned it in KS Updates/PBWU's, And have nothing to show for it. Like, literally. They can TELL us whatever they want, but after the past 24 months, it's hard to just take their word for it. It was just over 24 months ago, September 26th, 2013, where they were still shooting for December 2013 for full (not split wave completion), when it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know, given what happened since, that was an impossible claim when made. In addition, as Forar said less than 10 hours ago,
Days since the last update: 6 (though the last one said nothing useful about wave two)
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on all the pieces: 95 (seriously?)
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 226 (knowing that they're screwed on the figures isn't really news, we've known that for ages)
Days until the end of 2015: 80 (impossible)
Days until the end of Q1 2016: 171 (highly unlikely) [Addendum, the last date of record, no retraction or revision since]
I'll add Days since Conventional Forces stats were due: 108
Secondly, there has seemed to be an increased uptick in "flash sale" items this year, over an extended time. Sure, Palladium have often been fairly prodigious in their sales, but they've ramped it up significantly, with Christmas in July starting June 25th, running through mid July, immediately into Flash Sales that continued for eleven weeks, culminating in an almost clearance level sale of RRT stuff (30-50% off). And there'll probably be another sale in six weeks, and then a month and a half of Christmas Grab Bag spruiking. Now, the CiJ, and the Thanksgiving onward stuff are business as usual. As is the spruiking of "We have IP to license". Nothing out of the ordinary, except when seen in aggregate with everything else.
A lot of the above could be mitigated by two very simple solutions. "Show, don't tell", and "Don't wait for everything before showing backers something". They need to SHOW actual progress instead of just claiming they are "actively working on it". And they need to show backers even partial progress. The 95 days for a full breakdown thing? That's ludicrous. If one or two components are hard to pin down? Fine. Just specify those as hard to pin down. But if there's literally nothing that they can report the status on, three months after it was announced? That's a significant issue. If there's not a single sprue parts breakdown, that's again, a significant issue.
A third solution, stop treating the backers based on the actions of the minority (PB claims it's a couple dozen critics that are the problem, but while I don't think it's a majority, I do think it's more than that). When PB are open and honest, backers for the most part give them the benefit of the doubt. Sure, you can't please EVERYONE. But in an effort to not rile up the unwinnable*, they put more and more people offside. And they need to stop doing that if they want there to be a community at the end of this. There's a small minority of "haterz", a small minority of "fanbois", a small portion of vocal winnables, and a CRAPLOAD of otherwise winnable silent backers. Apathy works when you're not moving forward, until you need them to move later. Unless Palladium have written off moving past fulfillment in terms of support (and yes, some "haterz" think PB have written off fulfillment, but let's assume PB haven't), they need to do more than sit on their thumbs publically, even if they are making progress privately. Having Wave 2 eventuate, and be met with "Who gives a feth?" from a significant portion of backers will kill the game as surely as anything else. While PB definitely don't have a lack of publicity moving forward, a lot of that publicity is bad, and unless they move to change that, it'll only be diehards playing moving forward, in an industry that's fairly well saturated.
As a moderator I am not paid by Palladium in any way nor do I enjoy a special access to them and their operations beyond those of the typical fan/consumer.
I just wanted to clear up what I saw as a potential confusion about Palladium seeking licensing options on their IPs.
As a moderator I am not paid by Palladium in any way nor do I enjoy a special access to them and their operations beyond those of the typical fan/consumer.
I just wanted to clear up what I saw as a potential confusion about Palladium seeking licensing options on their IPs.
And that's fair enough, when taken as a single datapoint. It's when it's combined with all the other circumstantial data that makes people less willing to accept it in the right context. That may be unfair, but it's also the kind of thing that needs to be considered.
It's kind of like our former Prime Minister. He used the word "holocaust" to describe an economical situation in a speech. He used the word correctly, by a strict dictionary definition of the word. And people lost their minds. Because being accurate on a single point is irrelevant if it's lost in the general context of the situation. Him being correct (or PB having this not being an exception) is irrelevant, and in both cases, the party should have known their audience better and used better phrasing, else any point attempted to be made will be lost in the backlash.
Taking time out from not providing backers stuff they were due 21 months ago, after 14 weeks of selling physical product at heavily discounted sale, to add in that they also have virtual (IP) products for sale, was always going to be taken by some as a collective, and not as individual distinct issues.
I agree with Jeffar that what Rick quoted is just standard talk from Palladium. As someone who has been following them for 25 years roughly (on and off), I don't see it as anything new but rather the same as when they wanted fans to contact Jerry Bruckheimer to convince him to not just sit on his movie rights but actually make a movie. Sadly, it seems like ALL palladium game IPs are on the decline (including Robotech) and are less likely to be licensed in the future. I had hoped Robotech would break the trend of not seeing a Palladium game played in public (except at gencon) for over a decade. Unfortunately, my only demo game is the only Robotech game I've seen played (although admittedly I haven't been to the store much this year).
The Savage Worlds things definitely surprised me though. If Robotech Tactics had gone differently and I had actually gotten all my rewards remotely close to the original delivery date, I'd have jumped on it. I loved playing in the Rifts universe but liked the mechanics of it less and less as I was exposed to other more cohesive rulesets (Palladium rules were my intro to tabletop RPGs). Now? Nah, no interest until I get what I already paid for long ago. I don't want to support Palladium with another penny (whether directly or through a licensed product) until they fulfill their long overdue existing promises to me.
I'm at about halfway; agreed, they've been looking to license off their IP for years, from the movie to the N-Gage game.
However, at a cursory glance, this is new material in their usual copy/paste, at least after browsing through the last quarter worth of newsletters.
So why the sudden interest in mentioning "oh hey yeah guys, if you know someone that'd totally pay us for some juicy IP and merchandising royalty money, that'd be swell!"?
On its own, it's business as usual. Contrasted against the ongoing theory that they're either broke or at least running out of funds as the months go on, it's interesting.
I mean, they've allegedly been 'trimming the piece count' for months, if not entire quarters. Chinese factories might work cheap, but I doubt they work for free. Now it's possible they're lying about all this ongoing work (which is its own bag of worms), but unless they have the best contract ever in place, I can only assume that time, money, man hours available, or another factor will require them to either gak or get off the pot.
Or I suppose a third option would be that the work is done (so they're not hemorrhaging money) and they're just sitting on that info behind the "totes trimming piece counts!" excuse while trying to pull in the funds to get molds cut/production underway.
One thing I noticed recently, during their distributor show they mentioned how they have been in business for 30 years and found that most people haven't heard of them.
If I were Palladium, I would consider that a major problem and failure on my part to get my products out there.
Their solution seems to have been to make a plea to the very people that already know them to tell their friends.
Look, I knew Palladium was poorly managed before I backed because I bothered to look around on line. I managed my own expectations of them in what I thought was a reasonable level, not only based on their history but based on my personal experience in implementing large projects. I also considered that Ninja Division didn't know what they were doing and Harmony Gold is a gak company with the laziest people in the entertainment industry running the Robotech franchise.
That being said, I'm actually amazed at how poorly managed Palladium is and how they are able to ruin everything for themselves.
There's no good reason why the communication aspect of this was handled so badly. That one thing, that would take up so little of their time, would set the tone of all the conversations, expectations and success of the game.
If I were Palladium, I would consider that a major problem and failure on my part to get my products out there.
Therein is the problem. Palladium's only failures in their eyes are loving the fans too much, trying too hard, and trusting others too much. I agree though that this campaign took my already low expectations and dashed them completely. The glimmer of hope that the old dog had indeed learned some new tricks (like getting someone else to fetch ala Ninja Division) have long since faded. I feel like palladium is just running out the imaginary legal clock by posting vague comments about working on the project with NOTHING to show for it for the past 8 months. And, no, renders from 2 years ago don't count; the last parts breakdown was in February IIRC and who knows if that is even valid anymore given the unsubstantiated talk of changing the parts count. Since you have to read tea leaves and cast chicken bones to glean anything meaningful from Palladium's bipolar communications, I suspect they've changed or are trying to change factories and NOTHING from wave 2 is close to manufacture at this point.
It does remain sad that people whose livelihood is entirely based on communicating things through the written word, and have been doing so for over a third of a century, are so bad at it.
They seem to have a blind spot, where things can't be 'good', they have to be 'perfect', and keep focusing on that. They keep repeating "we're told to not give dates!", as though that explains their silence, but nobody sensible is asking for dates.
That update at the end of February with 5 sprue breakdown renders? Probably their best of the year. If they'd just fething do that once a month, they'd probably get a gakload less trouble from people.
For feths sake, people don't expect them to drop "oh, we're done, ship leaves port tomorrow" this week, but 7 months without tangible progress is not acceptable.
I can only imagine that if they were paying someone to work for half a year and they had nothing to show for it, they'd be pretty pissed off. Of course, given their small staff and reliance on freelancers, I doubt that happens, but the point remains; it requires being willfully oblivious to the actual issues to miss the point as hard as they are.
They seem to have a blind spot, where things can't be 'good', they have to be 'perfect', and keep focusing on that. They keep repeating "we're told to not give dates!", as though that explains their silence, but nobody sensible is asking for dates.
That update at the end of February with 5 sprue breakdown renders? Probably their best of the year. If they'd just fething do that once a month, they'd probably get a gakload less trouble from people
That's the thing... I think the first part is just talk. It's like all the white knights that kept years ago (and, yes, it is pathetic that I can officially say that) that Palladium should just take their time and do it right instead of meeting the looming October 2013 revised "estimate"... they took their sweet time (and ours) and didn't do it right. It's just a canned response to a failure on their part.
As for the last part, I'd be fine with a monthly update that showed February update levels of detail and progress. Sadly, I think that update was cummulative since the previous summer when wave 1 went into production finally and that nothing much has been done since to actually show. It's hard to classify a few phone calls and emails a week as discernable progress but that is what I suspect Palladium is actually devoting to the project. It's like their claims of working so many hours of so many days of the week including holidays and weekends. With the actual level of output they have, they're either lying or "working" incredibly inefficiently. There is simply no other option given the multiyear (for Robotech) and multidecade (for RPGs) results.
As a moderator I am not paid by Palladium in any way nor do I enjoy a special access to them and their operations beyond those of the typical fan/consumer.
I just wanted to clear up what I saw as a potential confusion about Palladium seeking licensing options on their IPs.
warboss wrote: I agree with Jeffar that what Rick quoted is just standard talk from Palladium. As someone who has been following them for 25 years roughly (on and off), I don't see it as anything new but rather the same as when they wanted fans to contact Jerry Bruckheimer to convince him to not just sit on his movie rights but actually make a movie. Sadly, it seems like ALL palladium game IPs are on the decline (including Robotech) and are less likely to be licensed in the future. I had hoped Robotech would break the trend of not seeing a Palladium game played in public (except at gencon) for over a decade. Unfortunately, my only demo game is the only Robotech game I've seen played (although admittedly I haven't been to the store much this year).
The Savage Worlds things definitely surprised me though. If Robotech Tactics had gone differently and I had actually gotten all my rewards remotely close to the original delivery date, I'd have jumped on it. I loved playing in the Rifts universe but liked the mechanics of it less and less as I was exposed to other more cohesive rulesets (Palladium rules were my intro to tabletop RPGs). Now? Nah, no interest until I get what I already paid for long ago. I don't want to support Palladium with another penny (whether directly or through a licensed product) until they fulfill their long overdue existing promises to me.
I disagree, this whole aspect of theirs is new, look at weekly updates in the past there is no mention of this anywhere, it could be they just lost a potential IP licensing holder? it could be they wish they did the d20 thing? it could be no one wants to work with them? it could be their funds are extremely low and they might not even be able to pay the rent soon, all in all it comes down to 61 days, nuff said.
but what it all comes down to is PB has hit the downward curve, less and less (if any) people are getting into RPG's (PB's bread and butter) PB realizes this, and they realize they realized it to late, i'm sure sales are dropping like a rock and who can blame that with very little new product hitting the shelves and a declining fan base and RPG players, and lets face it how many copies of a book do you need?
but what it all comes down to is PB has hit the downward curve, less and less (if any) people are getting into RPG's (PB's bread and butter) PB realizes this, and they realize they realized it to late, i'm sure sales are dropping like a rock and who can blame that with very little new product hitting the shelves and a declining fan base and RPG players, and lets face it how many copies of a book do you need?
In order for sales to drop like a rock, they need to be high first. If you have a source for that, please share it. Otherwise, I'll go with the more logical stagnant to steadily declining option. And, if you're Jorel, you need a half dozen copies or more of a single book...
but what it all comes down to is PB has hit the downward curve, less and less (if any) people are getting into RPG's (PB's bread and butter) PB realizes this, and they realize they realized it to late, i'm sure sales are dropping like a rock and who can blame that with very little new product hitting the shelves and a declining fan base and RPG players, and lets face it how many copies of a book do you need?
In order for sales to drop like a rock, they need to be high first. If you have a source for that, please share it. Otherwise, I'll go with the more logical stagnant to steadily declining option. And, if you're Jorel, you need a half dozen copies or more of a single book...
well I never did say their sales were high in the first place, just that they are on a downward curve, from meddling to mediocre or worse.
This wasn't just a new product to sell, this was an entirely new and revitalizing source of income for them.
The average miniatures gamer spends more on products than the average RPG gamer.
Instead of one person buying an occasional book, one person would buy hundreds of dollars in miniatures.
This would have been sales on a level they have never experienced before.
n815e wrote: This wasn't just a new product to sell, this was an entirely new and revitalizing source of income for them.
The average miniatures gamer spends more on products than the average RPG gamer. Instead of one person buying an occasional book, one person would buy hundreds of dollars in miniatures.
This would have been sales on a level they have never experienced before.
I think they did have an inkling of that which is why the current rumor is that they spent the kickstarter money that was supposed to go to wave 2 to buy dead retail stock of wave 1 instead. What they apparently didn't count on due to their RPG experience is that their massive delays, poor management/communication, overly complex sprue layouts, and misleading of backers as to the true state of the project would have a negative effect on both the tone of the community as well as sales. They'd been doing that on the rpg side for decades with only a very slow decline so were likely surprised that it would kill a minis game before it had a chance to grow.
n815e wrote: This wasn't just a new product to sell, this was an entirely new and revitalizing source of income for them.
The average miniatures gamer spends more on products than the average RPG gamer.
Instead of one person buying an occasional book, one person would buy hundreds of dollars in miniatures.
This would have been sales on a level they have never experienced before.
I think they did have an inkling of that which is why the current rumor is that they spent the kickstarter money that was supposed to go to wave 2 to buy dead retail stock of wave 1 instead. What they apparently didn't count on due to their RPG experience is that their massive delays, poor management/communication, overly complex sprue layouts, and misleading of backers as to the true state of the project would have a negative effect on both the tone of the community as well as sales. They'd been doing that on the rpg side for decades with only a very slow decline so were likely surprised that it would kill a minis game before it had a chance to grow.
Their big mistake was comparing Miniature wargamers to RPGers, while slow turn around and such may be acceptable to RPGers it is not acceptable to Miniature wargamers.
- Tabletop is a new thing to them, out of their comfort zone, so as much RPG publishing method they can inject into the process the better they feel.
- The China manufacture they probably felt forced into, probably felt the value for money for the tooling was poor (How bad is printing costs in comparison?). Also the amount of product they figured they needed to sell to get return on the investment (which I feel caused an error in creating too much retail stock).
- When things are less than perfect... no one needs to know UNLESS someone else can be blamed. Standard operating procedure.
- Kevin being the only decision making point is subject to all the wants and prejudices of a human being who is a bit on the needy side and takes his toys and goes home when people are less than receptive to his "fabulous" work.
PB really has been a small fry in the scheme of things and rarely take long-term steps to try to succeed for more.
Short term thinking has always been the Albatross around their neck and this is why they can pretty much be ignored on most things.
The handling of the RRTKS is enough to show they are willing to write-off KS as a method of product launch.
As a customer, they have only one thing I want: Robotech license for gaming.
I am pretty much over RPG for quite some time now.
Rifts was of interest to me for a time, the guys who made Shadowrun for PC could have aced this for them, too bad they are busy making BATTLETECH.
Actually, if they completed BATTLETECH, what if they extend the engine just a tiny bit and make Robotech?
Explore THAT why don't they.
This "fan-base" is almost literally dying off as the years pass (started 1985 for RT), really only those almost 40+ would remember this show and is getting long in the tooth.
There can be some younger folk who may stumble across it as a classic and develop an interest I must allow.
I am afraid they think wave 2 is "too costly" and with the glut of wave 1 starter boxes they feel that view is justified.
Shipping has stuck in their craw as well so even less incentive to get product to ship.
So... going with what is natural to them, they are trying to find the cheapest way possible.
My fear is that they will feel it is better to avoid doing it all together and are waiting for an appropriate "crisis" to present itself.
So, how can we convince them that wave2 and wave1 product combined will bring them revenue rather than keeping the dollars they have now? (a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush!).
With their lack of marketing, late in coming "plans" for gaming support, slow tweaking of rules, it may be a self fulfilling prophesy that RRT will fail and they will "regret" not just taking the money and pretending working on the project for the next decade and then quietly dropping it.
Since nothing is happening on so many fronts to do with this, I will probably do what PB wants me to do: walk away from wave 2.
Paradoxically, spend your money! Many worthless trinkets in the works! That other stuff we will get right on that when we are done being fired up with all these sales!
I think the big problem for backers, is that PB may have latched on to the Kickstarter loophole.
As Talizvar (and others) have said, PB may be at a point where it's too costly to move forward. Admitting they can't complete it, is corporate suicide. Even if they're only required to pay pro-rata on the BattleCry, they only account for ~$900,000 of the total pledged (6500 listed in the pledge bars on the front page of the KS * $130US = ~850K, add in another 50K of Pledge Manager addons). As I mentioned in a prior post, depending on how you calculate it, it's anywhere from 25-40% of that outstanding. So, the ~500K from addons, plus the 225-360K from outstanding Battlecries puts it at 725-860K owed backers.
For a company that doesn't appear to have that kind of liquidity, that's simply not an option. First, it'd kill the company. Second, it'd kill Kevin's reputation. I feel that the latter is more important to him. Anyways, with that not being an option, and them possibly not having the funds to do so, the obviously glaring loophole gives them an out. That if they're "actively working" on the project, it hasn't failed to deliver (and triggering the owing of refunds), it's just "late". And as long as it continues to be "late" and not "cancelled", they're able to skate on borrowed time.
While writing this post, I did a little research, and there's a small possibility PB may just be running out the clock, looking for September 9th 2018 (or perhaps May 21st 2018) as their out. I'm no lawyer, but a quick search found that the statute of limitations on wire/mail fraud in the United States is five years. We're already more than two years into that. I don't know if that's a plan, but at this point, given the situation they're in, the lack of progress and the backwards movement communication wise, While PB occasionally surprise me in their inability to meet the exceedingly low expectations that I expect from them, I doubt anything at this point would shock me.
I freely admit I could be wrong, either on the situation or on the legalistics. And if anyone wants to show how on the latter, I'm all for it. On the former, only PB can answer that. And they're not communicating. Talking, yes. Communicating, no. Contrary to PB's claims in the BBB/AG responses, there is a difference.
They're changing the subject. It's like if someone borrowed something from you and promised to give it back but it's been years since they promised and everytime you ask them about it they change the subject to how the weather is or something else they'd like to borrow from you. That's palladium style communication.
Not at all surprised at what a disaster this has become. PB is an old school, small market pen and paper RPG company. They were wildly inexperienced with the miniature market/scene, and woefully underprepared for such a successful KS and all the expectations it brought.
It's a shame because I really like the RRT mini's and the rules are pretty good. For a first shot at the big time wargaming scene, they did alright with the actual product itself...however...the KS disaster, poor customer service, and total lack of communication dwarfs the actual quality of the product.
Hopefully Palladium finds a way to redeem themselves, fix their bad rep, and continue to improve an already good product.
BRB gonna go buy that slick new Glitterboy mouse pad now...
Not at all surprised at what a disaster this has become. PB is an old school, small market pen and paper RPG company. They were wildly inexperienced with the miniature market/scene, and woefully underprepared for such a successful KS and all the expectations it brought.
It's a shame because I really like the RRT mini's and the rules are pretty good. For a first shot at the big time wargaming scene, they did alright with the actual product itself...however...the KS disaster, poor customer service, and total lack of communication dwarfs the actual quality of the product.
The thing is, even if they were woefully unprepared, that's not the big issue. I honestly think if they'd been on top of things from a communications perspective, they could have managed a lot of that. Look at Kingdom Death, or any of the crapload of Kickstarters that have run into trouble. They all seem to have some backers go off the rails, but I haven't seen any approach this level of vehemence. And that's because instead of being up front, accepting responsibility and proving they deserve the benefit of the doubt, they've kept silent or intentionally mislead, passed the buck to everyone from the manufacturers to their "partners" to the backers themselves, and shown little but contempt for fixing the problem.
The only campaigns that come close, or exceed RRT in this situation are ones that were found to be intentionally fraudulent (Defiance, Ice Age Mammals, etc). And that's not company PB want to be compared to.
I'll respectfully disagree with the "did alright with the actual product" bit, but that's subjective, so I accept the difference of opinion. But agreed any chance they had was screwed up by things fully in their control.
grumpy_newenglander wrote: Hopefully Palladium finds a way to redeem themselves, fix their bad rep, and continue to improve an already good product.
It's possible. It's possible I'll be crowned King of Norway and Sweden. But I wouldn't put much chance in that. It'd require PB not only being open and honest in their communication, but also, and just as importantly, with consistency and quality. Over the last two and a half years, PB HAVE on occasion produced a decent or otherwise unobjectionable update. But they've never followed through. Either there's been large periods of actual silence*, or the more current issue of Updates without meaningful information. The lead up of "big news coming" to the June 6th Update that then provided very little information of note, and nothing but broken or empty promises since, isn't the way to handle things.
* My favorite is Sept 26th 2013, where they apologized for three weeks of silence in an Update entitled "Sorry for the Silence", only to follow it with three more weeks of silence.
Forar's count is I believe at 96 days since Wayne said he'd work on a full breakdown of all the pieces. Assuming 24 models, and 8 resin components, that's 3 full days PER model. And this isn't to have them done. This is just to evaluate where they're currently at. Even if you discount weekends, it's STILL 2+ working days for each item. Which should take no more than 10 minutes apiece (if done comprehensively, much shorter if done more summarily).
There's plenty they could do to correct the issue, but they need to own up to their own mistakes (and not deflect them), and they need to start being SEEN to be working on it. Else all their words are for naught.
It's okay. They can keep trying to stall for time until buyers get fed up enough to complain en masse to the AG of their states. Please PB, do it, just feth up enough that you'll be put out of your misery by the law. I'm willing to accept that spectacle in lieu of wave 2
Stormonu wrote: I'd prefer if I got my Monster, but that likelyhood is getting more and more remote.
I'm to the point I want this to end, one way the other. Either get me my stuff, or go the feth out of business giving me my money back.
Only IF they DO go out of business, you have buckley's of getting any money back. The factory in China is likely to be owed money [IF they ever actually DID ANYTHING on wave 2] and they will get theirs before we get any of ours. IF we do, it'll be cents on the dollar.
IF we get anything, it'll either be the wave 2 items we want [PB HAVE been working on it and plan to shock, I mean surprise, us by saying "It has all just hit our warehouse and we're shipping it out this week!"] sometime between now and the heat death of the universe, or we can put that time back a little with all the warm feeling generated when PB get wound up and Kev is made personally bankrupt.
And BBB and AG messages are great for US backers. Don't suppose us in the RoW [including EU, Aus, et al.] will see any chance of ANY money back.
Also, I know it is easy to quote how much people are still owed in proportions of a BC pledge, but I don't believe I'm the only one who went in for the models alone and was not interested in a game. There must be quite a few of us that are owed the vast majority of our pledges because of that fact. I don't want to eat a $140 loss just to get a $5 sheet of decals. I have at least started making plans to get replacements of some of the stuff I wanted from other sources. The SDF-1 I have already ordered, and mentioned here, but I am holding back on the other models because there is just nothing out there at the same size to make it viable to collect them all. I MAY have to resort to buying a set of RRT Veritechs to paint up as the characters I wanted or as a trial of 'realistic' paint and 'cell-shaded' paint. But that will be all that PB gets out of me from now on.
I think at this point, worrying about losing your money is a moot point: PB perma-keeping it or bankruptcy.
I too am at the point that I would trade anything they owe me for PB to be wiped from existence as a company. My reasoning is that NO company should act as they do and get away with it, it is an affront to customer service and consumer rights.
Conrad Turner wrote: Only IF they DO go out of business, you have buckley's of getting any money back. The factory in China is likely to be owed money [IF they ever actually DID ANYTHING on wave 2] and they will get theirs before we get any of ours. IF we do, it'll be cents on the dollar.
IF we get anything, it'll either be the wave 2 items we want [PB HAVE been working on it and plan to shock, I mean surprise, us by saying "It has all just hit our warehouse and we're shipping it out this week!"] sometime between now and the heat death of the universe, or we can put that time back a little with all the warm feeling generated when PB get wound up and Kev is made personally bankrupt.
And BBB and AG messages are great for US backers. Don't suppose us in the RoW [including EU, Aus, et al.] will see any chance of ANY money back.
No, it'd be a shock, as I doubt KevCo could remain silent if they were further along than we thought. Cause as much as they don't want to "give out dates", they sure do give them out a lot. And usually prematurely, because they use the absolute best case scenario as their realistic timeframe. Not just with RRT leading up to GenCon 2014, but also on their book schedules. If there's one thing we know about Kevin, it's that he suffers from premature expectation.
The BBB aren't likely to get involved, and any individual lawsuits are likely going to screw international backers. Depending on how it's handled, the AG may not, but PB might anyway, by paying out to US backers first. Cause if there's another thing we know about Kevin, it's that ROW are secondary backers.
Conrad Turner wrote: Also, I know it is easy to quote how much people are still owed in proportions of a BC pledge, but I don't believe I'm the only one who went in for the models alone and was not interested in a game. There must be quite a few of us that are owed the vast majority of our pledges because of that fact. I don't want to eat a $140 loss just to get a $5 sheet of decals. I have at least started making plans to get replacements of some of the stuff I wanted from other sources. The SDF-1 I have already ordered, and mentioned here, but I am holding back on the other models because there is just nothing out there at the same size to make it viable to collect them all. I MAY have to resort to buying a set of RRT Veritechs to paint up as the characters I wanted or as a trial of 'realistic' paint and 'cell-shaded' paint. But that will be all that PB gets out of me from now on.
Surely there's someone you can buy the Veri's off, for much less than buying from PB. And giving that person a little financial relief and not giving PB any more money, has to be win-win-win, no?
And as someone who's done the proportional BC pledge calculation, that's only ever been in regards those components. Anything paid that was not for a Battlecry is owed in it's entirety, and there's no argument there. It's as simple as "I paid X for these three addons, therefore I'm owed X". BC's are the only tricky part because they've only been partially delivered. In your case, you're owed exactly what you're paid, less what you paid for the decals, and any shipping cost beyond what it cost them to send you those.
I doubt you're alone in pledging without getting a BC, but I'd be surprised if many other people did, though. The price discount on figures by buying a BC would likely have been too much for most backers. If you wanted the four character models, and two specialty ones (say Super Valks and MPA), you would have been ~$20 away from getting the remainder of the BC, even if the cards/rules/tokens/templates weren't useful. And there was a CRAPLOAD of other miniatures.
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Talizvar wrote: I think at this point, worrying about losing your money is a moot point: PB perma-keeping it or bankruptcy.
I too am at the point that I would trade anything they owe me for PB to be wiped from existence as a company. My reasoning is that NO company should act as they do and get away with it, it is an affront to customer service and consumer rights.
Definitely. They deserve the "free hand of the market" to be at play here. Well, at least the back of said hand.
Well, IIRC rick said he'd give them to the end of this year before unleashing a tsunami of legal action that will bring them to their knees so maybe Forar should add a countdown till RickFury to his tickertape.
Alpharius wrote: A Doomsday Countdown Clock for Crisis of Treachery...3?
(or are we up to 4 now?)
Nah, if Rick/Asterios follows through with his plans advertised so often for years then it isn't treachery, it'll be the Crisis of Righteous Fury!TM for palladium. If anything, THIS kickstarter and palladium's actions in undermining consistantly what they promised 2 years ago (and breaking their word since as well) would technically be the Crisis of Treachery II: Kevin strikes back(ers)!
Alpharius wrote: Could it still be a Crisis of Treachery®™ though?
I mean, aren't the Backers betraying Robotech, Palladium and Kevin if they take legal action?
I can't speak for others but my kickstarter contract with Palladium (that they've unilaterally chosen to break multiple times without my consent or foreknowledge) didn't include an oath of fealty to Palladium and/or its liege lord, Kevin Siembieda. Nothing I'm capable of doing (including raising awareness of Palladium's behavior...my only action so far) can therefore be treacherous.
Alpharius wrote: Could it still be a Crisis of Treachery®™ though?
I mean, aren't the Backers betraying Robotech, Palladium and Kevin if they take legal action?
I can't speak for others but my kickstarter contract with Palladium (that they've unilaterally chosen to break multiple times without my consent or foreknowledge) didn't include an oath of fealty to Palladium and/or its liege lord, Kevin Siembieda. Nothing I'm capable of doing (including raising awareness of Palladium's behavior...my only action so far) can therefore be treacherous.
You sure about that? How carefully did you read the TOS?
Alpharius wrote: A Doomsday Countdown Clock for Crisis of Treachery...3?
(or are we up to 4 now?)
"Crises of Treachery" are caused by Kevin's minions doing something underhanded behind his back, like stealing and selling priceless artwork.
When it's the Dear Leader himself behind the shenanigans not to deliver what people paid for, "Fraud" seems to be a far more apt label. Quite frankly, I hope that Rick pierces the corporate veil on this one, so that Kevin can be held personally accountable.
Alpharius wrote: A Doomsday Countdown Clock for Crisis of Treachery...3?
(or are we up to 4 now?)
"Crises of Treachery" are caused by Kevin's minions doing something underhanded behind his back, like stealing and selling priceless artwork.
When it's the Dear Leader himself behind the shenanigans not to deliver what people paid for, "Fraud" seems to be a far more apt label. Quite frankly, I hope that Rick pierces the corporate veil on this one, so that Kevin can be held personally accountable.
You're assuming Kevin will see himself as the accountable party in any blame game. His deflection-fu is unparalleled. Of course it's not HIS fault. It's the company in China, or Ninja Division, or the backers, or, if nothing else works, I don't think Wayne's job is THAT safe, if it comes right down to it. Not if him keeping it meant Kevin had to take responsibility.
In the instance mentioned, it'd be Rick's fault. He's the ringleader trying to bring them down. And he didn't have faith in Kevin's vision. So, all Rick's fault.
Are you ready for that responsibility, Rick? Are. You. Ready?
warboss wrote: Well, IIRC rick said he'd give them to the end of this year before unleashing a tsunami of legal action that will bring them to their knees so maybe Forar should add a countdown till RickFury to his tickertape.
I've pondered it, but Rick also said that it wasn't a hard and fast date (ie: "on January 1st, we let loose the Legal Dogs Of War!"), more a matter of 'Dec 2015 marks it being 2 years late, 2 years late is apparently important for the related laws or something'.
So I guess it'd be "Days until Rick can feasibly begin his legal assault because PB won't just give him his cash back lest they begin an avalanche of backers demanding money back", but given that litigation has been on the menu in this specific case for so very long, I think I'll just leave it as "when he finally fires it up, I'll believe it, but only with evidence (a reasonably redacted piece of Legalese or whatever)".
And that basically makes it the same countdown as the one to the end of the year, which I believe is around 78 now. Given that it's impossible for them to complete the wave without several miracles and air freighting a lot of stuff, now it's just a matter of running out the clock and then hearing of Rick's triumphant and ironclad legal offensive launching.
Since I don't think I've posted it here lately, here's my ongoing date list for context;
Days since the last update: 8 (though the last one said nothing useful about wave two)
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on all the pieces: 97 (seriously?)
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 228 (knowing that they're screwed on the figures isn't really news, we've known that for ages)
Days until the end of 2015: 78 (impossible)
Days until the end of Q1 2016: 169 (highly unlikely)
Days until Gencon 2016: 293 (*very* optimistic)
Days until the end of 2016: 444 (optimistic)
While I've noted several times that it was never sensible for them to magically produce twice the work in half the time, we're now at a point where it took them a year and a half to do 11 figures, surely 2.5'ish years to do the remaining two dozen shouldn't be that far a reach.
Yes, yes, we're all surprised they manage to tie their own shoes, whatever snark necessary to make people happy, by the numbers of wave one alone, it's not an unreasonable expectation that they should be able to get their gak together within the next 15 months, especially if so many quarters have already been spent working on that material.
And a fine point has been brought up questioning what statute of limitations might exist regarding things if backers did want to pursue their grievances. If the related laws have a 5 year cap, there are only so many more months that people can say 'oh be patient I've waited eight hundred years blah blah blah' before the clock runs out and PB walks scott free (because let's be real, for them to take a hit to their reputation, they'd need to have one for anything but delays and disappointment).
I disagree, this whole aspect of theirs is new, look at weekly updates in the past there is no mention of this anywhere, it could be they just lost a potential IP licensing holder? it could be they wish they did the d20 thing? it could be no one wants to work with them? it could be their funds are extremely low and they might not even be able to pay the rent soon, all in all it comes down to 61 days, nuff said.
Emphasis added and just quoting that forward for Forar, Official Countdown Keeper of the Dakka Backers of RRT (The DakBac faction).
I've pondered it, but Rick also said that it wasn't a hard and fast date (ie: "on January 1st, we let loose the Legal Dogs Of War!"), more a matter of 'Dec 2015 marks it being 2 years late, 2 years late is apparently important for the related laws or something'.
So I guess it'd be "Days until Rick can feasibly begin his legal assault because PB won't just give him his cash back lest they begin an avalanche of backers demanding money back", but given that litigation has been on the menu in this specific case for so very long, I think I'll just leave it as "when he finally fires it up, I'll believe it, but only with evidence (a reasonably redacted piece of Legalese or whatever)".
And that basically makes it the same countdown as the one to the end of the year, which I believe is around 78 now. Given that it's impossible for them to complete the wave without several miracles and air freighting a lot of stuff, now it's just a matter of running out the clock and then hearing of Rick's triumphant and ironclad legal offensive launching.
Since I don't think I've posted it here lately, here's my ongoing date list for context;
Days since the last update: 8 (though the last one said nothing useful about wave two)
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on all the pieces: 97 (seriously?)
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 228 (knowing that they're screwed on the figures isn't really news, we've known that for ages)
Days until the end of 2015: 78 (impossible)
Days until the end of Q1 2016: 169 (highly unlikely)
Days until Gencon 2016: 293 (*very* optimistic)
Days until the end of 2016: 444 (optimistic)
While I've noted several times that it was never sensible for them to magically produce twice the work in half the time, we're now at a point where it took them a year and a half to do 11 figures, surely 2.5'ish years to do the remaining two dozen shouldn't be that far a reach.
Yes, yes, we're all surprised they manage to tie their own shoes, whatever snark necessary to make people happy, by the numbers of wave one alone, it's not an unreasonable expectation that they should be able to get their gak together within the next 15 months, especially if so many quarters have already been spent working on that material.
And a fine point has been brought up questioning what statute of limitations might exist regarding things if backers did want to pursue their grievances. If the related laws have a 5 year cap, there are only so many more months that people can say 'oh be patient I've waited eight hundred years blah blah blah' before the clock runs out and PB walks scott free (because let's be real, for them to take a hit to their reputation, they'd need to have one for anything but delays and disappointment).
Sobering numbers there, to be sure!
Would you be surprised if, upon reading this post, that was the first time PB was aware of them?
warboss wrote: Well, IIRC rick said he'd give them to the end of this year before unleashing a tsunami of legal action that will bring them to their knees so maybe Forar should add a countdown till RickFury to his tickertape.
I've pondered it, but Rick also said that it wasn't a hard and fast date (ie: "on January 1st, we let loose the Legal Dogs Of War!"), more a matter of 'Dec 2015 marks it being 2 years late, 2 years late is apparently important for the related laws or something'.
So I guess it'd be "Days until Rick can feasibly begin his legal assault because PB won't just give him his cash back lest they begin an avalanche of backers demanding money back", but given that litigation has been on the menu in this specific case for so very long, I think I'll just leave it as "when he finally fires it up, I'll believe it, but only with evidence (a reasonably redacted piece of Legalese or whatever)".
*snip*
While I've noted several times that it was never sensible for them to magically produce twice the work in half the time, we're now at a point where it took them a year and a half to do 11 figures, surely 2.5'ish years to do the remaining two dozen shouldn't be that far a reach.
Sounds like the date for RickFury is almost as nailed down as a Palladium Wave 2 delivery date! As for the last part, I was really hoping that palladium LEARNED something from their failures during wave 1 that would decrease the time it takes to make wave 2. I suspect they did learn something (even if it was only that they actually knew nothing) but that the hold up now for wave 2 is monetary and not skill based. Sales probably aren't as high as expected because of the way they've treated backers and they likely tied up lots of pledge funds in now dead wave 1 retail stock that the fire sales don't seem to be recouping. It's obviously all conjecture since Palladium doesn't feel like actually addressing the 800lb gorilla in the room.
1st off, people have forgotten Kevin still has an ace up his sleeve, if you remember the mysterious circumstances regarding Jeff's leaving of PB at around the same time, Kevin had an explosion saying someone was stealing his stuff, mind you he never said who, and not saying Jeff was guilty, it is all circumstantial, but remember Jeff had access to the RRT stuff, and while Kevin cannot blame him without actual proof he could claim any number of things like someone at the OH broke into his office and stole or damaged any info regarding RRT. also not saying this is true, but it is a viable excuse for Kevin. (also hate to be the lone backer who showed up for the OH that has been real outspoken on the forums if he goes this route).
Now while he cannot use that as a legal defense (he may think he can) he can use it to call to his fan friends for help (Ala COT ? ) and use funds from that to produce something, anything to show he is working on the RRT project, since he has yet to show anything Physical and or substantial to show he has done anything on the project. as to the 3D drawings he showed, those are the ones used to make the prototypes he has shown at Conventions and such.
will PB burn? if they keep going the way they are now? most likely, will they try to do a last minute refund to me and others pushing them? possibly since it will be cheaper then when it goes critical, will they add on a NDA to the refund? most likely, will they try to lead people on their merry way as long as they can? most definately.
The question you have to ask yourself is how long will you allow them to lead you on?
Is this your way of backing out from your impending legal doom of Palladium? If you start backpedaling any faster from your hundreds of legal proclamations, you'll end up in Neverland Ranch.
warboss wrote: Is this your way of backing out from your impending legal doom of Palladium? If you start backpedaling any faster from your hundreds of legal proclamations, you'll end up in Neverland Ranch.
oh no, only way PB can stop that is if they refund my money then I have no choice.
or show actual physical proof of something being done but its going to have to be something amazing.
Honestly speaking, they probably should nix the rest of the plastics and just do the Wave 2 stuff in resin/metal. That way they woudn't need to cut the units quite so much and it would be cheaper (yes, materials are costlier... but I don't think even they can fool themselves into thinking they're going to sell enough of the Wave 2 stuff to justify doing it in plastics).
Also, doing the Super Valkyries as resin additional parts and plastic sprues would probably work, and they have already half the stuff done ^_^
TBH, that's the only way I see Wave 2 actually happening.
The MAC-II monster can probably work in plastic, because it's a lot of resin to cast, and it's a showcase model that would sell reasonably well. Also the Supers, because it's a just small upgrade sprue of the Super / Strike bits.
But small, ugly stuff like the Jotun? Yeah, resin.
Metal where applicable seems prudent. While there was critique about the resulting figures, GHQ's entries to the line seem to have been generally well received and were produced in a timely fashion. If they were willing to work on the others, that could help.
Of course, there's also humour in the idea of PB adding *yet another company* to the mix if they went in search of a Resin partner for some reason. Nope, no way that could go wrong at all!
That said, shipping weight could also become an issue. 27 figures per battle cry in metal (especially with 3 MPA and 3 FPA in there) could start adding up, not to mention multiple BC orders and all the add ons.
Albertorius wrote: Honestly speaking, they probably should nix the rest of the plastics and just do the Wave 2 stuff in resin/metal. That way they woudn't need to cut the units quite so much and it would be cheaper (yes, materials are costlier... but I don't think even they can fool themselves into thinking they're going to sell enough of the Wave 2 stuff to justify doing it in plastics).
Also, doing the Super Valkyries as resin additional parts and plastic sprues would probably work, and they have already half the stuff done ^_^
TBH, that's the only way I see Wave 2 actually happening.
You're probably right but that would fly in the face of Palladium's long standing motto... "By Siembieda's Hammer, never give up! Never refund! Never surrender!"
Forar wrote: Metal where applicable seems prudent. While there was critique about the resulting figures, GHQ's entries to the line seem to have been generally well received and were produced in a timely fashion. If they were willing to work on the others, that could help.
Of course, there's also humour in the idea of PB adding *yet another company* to the mix if they went in search of a Resin partner for some reason. Nope, no way that could go wrong at all!
That said, shipping weight could also become an issue. 27 figures per battle cry in metal (especially with 3 MPA and 3 FPA in there) could start adding up, not to mention multiple BC orders and all the add ons.
Except of course for the fact that resin was stated in the KS for certain items (SDF-1, anyone?)
So they will need a resin caster anyway, 'cause who the frak wants a metal SDF-1 that'll fall to bits any time you look at it funny and could be classed as an offensive weapon. They already need to look at "another company", so there is no benefit to looking at working it all in metal - except that possible they are already working with one rather than all running round like headless chickens clucking "We've had sooooo much trouble working in plastic, we don't want to go through all that again in resin, let's run all the resin stuff we promised in metal as we are already in bed with someone that does it!"
Look, obviously I'm not white knight'ing these guys, but my understanding is that the KS TOU lays out that the creators need to make a good faith effort to deliver their product. What's more important, that people get Super VT's, or that the Super VT's are in plastic?
This isn't even bending the intent of KS, by my reading; "sorry guys, we tried for literally years and couldn't make it happen in a timely or cost effective manner, so we're going to have to send you the rest of your stuff in resin/metal" would be infinitely more reasonable than "we're totes going to work on this gak for another 5 years and still fail to deliver".
Hell, having figures in a reasonable part count alone would be an improvement.
And let's be real; we just went over this, plastic is sensible when you're going to move enough units to justify the heightened mold costs. If Wave One is selling shabbily enough (as people keep assuming), doing wave two in plastic isn't financially prudent, hell it might even be financial suicide. "Oh, so we're going to spend $10,000 on mold, materials, and shipping, in order to sell off $5k-10k in figures"? I'm sure someone's done the math, they know (or can find out) what the order numbers on wave one, and more importantly, the restock demand.
Annoyed as I am, I'm not expecting PB to actively point the gun at their own heads (god knows they point it at their own foot often enough).
If they said "hey guys, the good news is you'll have your stuff in the next 4-6 months, GHQ is already doing the first run of figures as we speak", I don't think I'd be put off enough to care. Compared to "sorry guys, nothing to show after half a year", I'll take "less than ideal" over "nothing".
You're probably right but that would fly in the face of Palladium's long standing motto... "By Siembieda's Hammer, never give up! Never refund! Never surrender!"
Never accept responsibility! Never admit culpability!
I would accept an all resin or all metal wave 2 collection sent to me IF AND ONLY IF palladium were never making a plastic version. I wouldn't accept a version that I fell is less preferable just to have them bring the version I want to market later.
And I'm all for RESIN. I have said that the character models and exclusives SHOULD be resin in preference to plastic.
I just believe that as resin was always part of the KS, any change of material should be to resin first and only to metal as a last resort as I can't see any significant savings over metal.
The savings resin gives over plastic for limited run items can be more than significant, certainly more than people are paying per model in a BC.
I have no real preference and wouldn't mind Resin any more or less than Metal.
And while GHQ seems to have done acceptable work (in general, wasp waisted MPA noted), as noted, PB does need to do some bits (objectives, bases, SDF-1, possibly others) in resin, so they do need a company that works in resin at some point.
If that company can deliver a quality product in a timely fashion, go nuts! My connection to metal was mostly that GHQ actually managed to deliver.
But yeah, either would be fine by me as well.
My main point is that of all the bullgak that has gone on, change of material (again, while less than ideal) wouldn't remotely be their biggest offense in this gakshow of a campaign, and may even be well within KS standards (and I'm sure someone will say their lawyer will disagree, and they can rail against my hypothetical compromise all they want).
ok PB can not do metal or resin for the bulk of wave 2, it is not cost effective and would cost more then plastic (plastic has a high front end cost, but gets cheaper after awhile) Metal/Resin has a straight cost throughout.
My understanding is that plastic is only cheaper as economy of scale kicks in; the molds are suuuuper expensive, but the materials costs are peanuts, so once you kick out X,000 or XY,000 sprues, the cost per unit drops dramatically.
If they can't expect to sell more than half of that sum, there's no financial advantage. It'd literally just be pissing away money.
Resin and metal are supposedly better for smaller runs of figures, and as someone who has claimed many times that wave one isn't selling well, surely you can't argue that wave two will see such massive demand as to need to be done that way?
So if they could do resin and/or metal faster and/or more cheaply (in aggregate, with higher materials costs but lower mold costs, while accounting for more frequent mold replacements, changes to shipping costs based on weight changes, etc, etc, etc), I'm not seeing a downside.
warboss wrote: I would accept an all resin or all metal wave 2 collection sent to me IF AND ONLY IF palladium were never making a plastic version. I wouldn't accept a version that I fell is less preferable just to have them bring the version I want to market later.
The pricing would be the killer. I'm sure there's some proprietary markup on the Consclusives (ie, you pay more, cause hey, "limited" run). But if they went to metal, it'd likely be just to close out the Kickstarter. It'd likely be the end of RRT.
Because even if you halved the price of the Super Valk Guardian for retail (and I don't think there's that much "limited" markup in there), you're looking at $66 for a pair of Super Valks at retail (plus increased shipping costs due to weight). Even the PB jack up 25% that they applied to the Wave 1 boxes only puts the plastic Super Valks at $43.75. And then it becomes a circling the drain thing. While backers get theirs, the price is too significant to make it a retail success. And without some success there, plastics become less likely, as the market need to have sufficient growth to justify the milling and initial production run.
That's of course, assuming they have the funds to do it. Even if you assume the cost to PB is $3* per model in aggregate (including sculpting/casting/casting material/print material/shipping from GHQ to PB), you're looking at what, 6500 BC's x 23 missing models** x $3, you're already at $450K. That's not counting the third of funding that went in addons, or the significantly increased shipping costs involved.
* And I think that's likely a woefully undercosted value.
** Assuming they just give stock plastic versions of the Guardians/Fighters for Rick/Roy as is rumoured.
While the idea of finishing out the Kickstarter in metal seems like a noble idea, I just don't see it as even close to economically viable for Palladium. I think they're literally past the point of no return. It's "Plastic or bust" at this point, I think. And that's assuming a material change of this magnitude isn't a breach of some kind. Else, why not make them out of some kind of paper standees, if material changes aren't an issue?
Forar wrote: My understanding is that plastic is only cheaper as economy of scale kicks in; the molds are suuuuper expensive, but the materials costs are peanuts, so once you kick out X,000 or XY,000 sprues, the cost per unit drops dramatically.
If they can't expect to sell more than half of that sum, there's no financial advantage. It'd literally just be pissing away money.
Resin and metal are supposedly better for smaller runs of figures, and as someone who has claimed many times that wave one isn't selling well, surely you can't argue that wave two will see such massive demand as to need to be done that way?
So if they could do resin and/or metal faster and/or more cheaply (in aggregate, with higher materials costs but lower mold costs, while accounting for more frequent mold replacements, changes to shipping costs based on weight changes, etc, etc, etc), I'm not seeing a downside.
thats where your wrong, if they are going to do a lower point run then they can go with a cheaper mold for plastics which would be about the same cost as a metal one, and then produce the models for less the amount, but the issue is on certain minis I can see doing resin and/or metal since costs will be low (SDF-1 people ) but doing base units like MPA's and FPAs, super valks and so on will not be cheaper in the long run.
So if they could do resin and/or metal faster and/or more cheaply (in aggregate, with higher materials costs but lower mold costs, while accounting for more frequent mold replacements, changes to shipping costs based on weight changes, etc, etc, etc), I'm not seeing a downside.
Palladium would have to spend the rest of the money that they're currently holding onto for a rainy day (for the impending RickFury's legal defense fund). I don't believe they have any real progress or potential to get out wave 2 in its entirety at this point and are just stalling. That is the impression I get.
thats where your wrong, if they are going to do a lower point run then they can go with a cheaper mold for plastics which would be about the same cost as a metal one, and then produce the models for less the amount, but the issue is on certain minis I can see doing resin and/or metal since costs will be low (SDF-1 people ) but doing base units like MPA's and FPAs, super valks and so on will not be cheaper in the long run.
A mold for resin or metal minis would likely cost them a few hundred dollars... but they'd probably need a half dozen or more for each mini to do the entire KS print run as they wear out quickly. The other benefit though would be that it wouldn't have to be done in China though so that would save them time/money on shipping as well. Do we know that they haven't already gone with cheaper moulds? I don't recall if the wave one moulds were steel or aluminum or if they even specified it.
My point exactly. If they're expecting to run hundreds of thousands of these things, it makes sense. If they expect to just fulfill wave 2 to backers and perhaps have some left over on the web store (with the potential to do another round of molds if the demand spikes), that makes less sense.
Plastic, by my understanding, is the 'long run' option; you spend a ton up front and then recoup it by making a gakload of sprues off it. If there is no long run though, it's just paying a gakload up front to... do one print run and call it a day on the hopes whatever goes to retail makes back the money. That's not a winning proposition.
I mean, while we're spitballing alternative options, I sure hope someone has at least napkin-math'd out the costs of a refund, like we've sorted out, at least for context against the costs of others (proceeding with plastic, risking dealing with litigation, going to metal and/or resin, etc). If it all shakes out that they can't do wave two in any means for less than 500k-1m, and reasonable refunds (say full add ons, 1/4 BC tier cost) came to only 300k-400k, that could be a path to follow.
Yes yes yes yes yes, I too doubt they're sitting comfy on half a mil either way.
But the point stands; evaluating every option at hand would be the smart thing to do, even if some (or hell, all) of those options are currently unrealistic.
While the idea of finishing out the Kickstarter in metal seems like a noble idea, I just don't see it as even close to economically viable for Palladium. I think they're literally past the point of no return. It's "Plastic or bust" at this point, I think. And that's assuming a material change of this magnitude isn't a breach of some kind. Else, why not make them out of some kind of paper standees, if material changes aren't an issue?
Let's not get absurd. Metal and resin and plastic are generally (but not universally) acceptable mediums for miniatures and to a limited degree (depending on the sculpt, cost, and consumer) interchangeable. Paper is not. You might as well make it out of cow dung as that would be an equally absurd counterpoint. I'm sorry that this is a bit snippy but your suggestion of "why not just make it out of paper?" is just ridiculous. We're trying to discuss at least potentially viable alternatives.
Is the change of materials a breach of contract? Sure... but it is one that might result in us actually getting something physical for our money instead of just the runaround and aggravation. As forar said, a potential change of materials would only be the latest in the string of unilateral Darth Vader-esque breaches on the part of Palladium and the only one that might actually benefit us, the valued backers for whom this project wouldn't be possible without. If they can't afford to make the full run in ANY available acceptable material, they need to cut back on the unlocks and sculpts until they can. First, get rid of the special characters. They're just resculpts of other minis. If that isn't enough, start cutting back on the last unlocks until they get to a point that is viable. I'd much rather have a MAC, super valks, VEF/VT-D, FPA/MPA, zent infantry, gnerls, and armored valks in ANY material in hand and "miss out" on lancers and ghosts and experimental who the feth cares sometime next year than have nothing forever. I see those as the only two realistic options going forward and it's obvious that palladium prefers the latter given their 8 month lack of discernable progress and contempt for backers.
Forar wrote: Hell, having figures in a reasonable part count alone would be an improvement.
FFS, part count, again?
Having figures AT ALL would be an improvement.
If the average part count grows by 30% per model, that would be fine AS LONG AS I GET MY MODELS.
feth, I only build the things once. They could double the parts count on the Monster to capture every detail, and I'd be satisfied. It's a fething showcase model. IDGAF if it's a zillion pieces. It's not like I haven't built fully-posable, fully-transformable Robotech Super Veritech models before...
But I sure as feth can't build what I don't have.
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warboss wrote: I would accept an all resin or all metal wave 2 collection sent to me IF AND ONLY IF palladium were never making a plastic version.
If Palladium makes the kit(s) in resin or metal, they will never make them in plastic. The KS is a defined, large preorder that would actually justify the production efficiency. Having to resculpt and recut molds for mass production after this fustercluck? Never gonna happen. They won't have the volume, or the revenue.
While the idea of finishing out the Kickstarter in metal seems like a noble idea, I just don't see it as even close to economically viable for Palladium. I think they're literally past the point of no return. It's "Plastic or bust" at this point, I think. And that's assuming a material change of this magnitude isn't a breach of some kind. Else, why not make them out of some kind of paper standees, if material changes aren't an issue?
Let's not get absurd. Metal and resin and plastic are generally (but not universally) acceptable mediums for miniatures and to a limited degree (depending on the sculpt, cost, and consumer) interchangeable. Paper is not. You might as well make it out of cow dung as that would be an equally absurd counterpoint. I'm sorry that this is a bit snippy but your suggestion of "why not just make it out of paper?" is just ridiculous. We're trying to discuss at least potentially viable alternatives.
I admit, I was just going to the absurd with the paper thing. But that doesn't mean it's not at the far end of that particular scale. They could save money by going away from ABS. There are several inferior grades (from a modelling standpoint) of plastic. PVC, Restic, a whole bunch others. At some point, there's a point of unacceptability. I just went to the most absurd "realistic" version. I could have said sculpted mashed potatoes (Close Encounters was on the TV as I was writing the post). I went with paper because of the mention on KS Comments that the paper cutouts were up on Drivethru (which ironically, is down for maintenance as I write this).
warboss wrote: Is the change of materials a breach of contract? Sure... but it is one that might result in us actually getting something physical for our money instead of just the runaround and aggravation. As forar said, a potential change of materials would only be the latest in the string of unilateral Darth Vader-esque breaches on the part of Palladium and the only one that might actually benefit us, the valued backers for whom this project wouldn't be possible without. If they can't afford to make the full run in ANY available acceptable material, they need to cut back on the unlocks and sculpts until they can. First, get rid of the special characters. They're just resculpts of other minis. If that isn't enough, start cutting back on the last unlocks until they get to a point that is viable. I'd much rather have a MAC, super valks, VEF/VT-D, FPA/MPA, zent infantry, gnerls, and armored valks in ANY material in hand and "miss out" on lancers and ghosts and experimental who the feth cares sometime next year than have nothing forever. I see those as the only two realistic options going forward and it's obvious that palladium prefers the latter given their 8 month lack of discernable progress and contempt for backers.
Agreed on most everything you've said. I disagree with cutting back on sculpts, not because I don't think it's a good idea, but because I think it's as likely to end in refund demands as not. Now, the proportionality might help them there (ie, a couple of percent of a refund, rather than 25-40%), but it could be tricky is a significant number of backers aren't willing to accept it. Because it is a sliding scale, between complete fulfillment, and what you've already got. For example, subtract the Gnerls from your list. Still happy to take that? Subtract the Super Valks? Still happy? At some point, likely before it gets to nothing, you won't. And some people will have a much higher initial threshold. Not getting the MPA experimentals? Fine. But losing the Ghosts or Lancers (or both) would be a dealbreaker). There's 5000+ backers. I'm sure at every possible removal there'd be some for who it'd be a step too far.
And that's not discounting either that PB could consider that a failure (and they won't accept that), or they literally have nothing left. What if all they have is funds for two models to be completed? Or, what happens if they can do what you listed (give or take), you get those, and then they go retail with the rest? Personally, the idea of PB making any profit on RRT after backers took a content cut, would be pretty distasteful. Heck, they make enough on retail to do an additional model? Then what happens? Cause once the KS has been declared "paid out", I'm pretty sure backers are hosed.
Yeah, most of what I've said is hypothetical, at best. But they're in a hole, and I honestly don't think they can or would accept a half-measure out. That's why I said "Plastics or bust". I just don't see them accepting any other option.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The point is first things first.
1. Deliver the stuff!
2. Make the stuff "better"
It's part and parcel; if they went metal or resin, that's a side benefit.
Like... they're intrinsically linked. We've seen GHQ's metal figures, it's not like they'd be casting the heads in 3 pieces and the arms in 4 if using metal.
Agreed on most everything you've said. I disagree with cutting back on sculpts, not because I don't think it's a good idea, but because I think it's as likely to end in refund demands as not. *snip* For example, subtract the Gnerls from your list. Still happy to take that? Subtract the Super Valks? Still happy? At some point, likely before it gets to nothing, you won't. And some people will have a much higher initial threshold. Not getting the MPA experimentals? Fine. But losing the Ghosts or Lancers (or both) would be a dealbreaker). There's 5000+ backers. I'm sure at every possible removal there'd be some for who it'd be a step too far.
It's obvious that there would be unhappy folks no matter which ones you cut but you can't please everyone all the time. There is a wide range though between that and displeasing everyone all the time (except for a dozen employess, freelancers, and wannabe's who are just megaversal ambassadors currently on the forums). That's why I suggested going back on the unlocks in order instead of just cherry picking the ones I don't like. It's open and impartial as you can get.
And that's not discounting either that PB could consider that a failure (and they won't accept that), or they literally have nothing left. What if all they have is funds for two models to be completed?
Then it would be obvious that they misused the money in a criminal fashion and NOTHING we suggest here would work including your paper minis. Also, on a side note, if they made the minis out of mashed potatoes with gravy decals then we'd finally have mouth watering minis after all these years!
Or, what happens if they can do what you listed (give or take), you get those, and then they go retail with the rest? Personally, the idea of PB making any profit on RRT after backers took a content cut, would be pretty distasteful. Heck, they make enough on retail to do an additional model? Then what happens? Cause once the KS has been declared "paid out", I'm pretty sure backers are hosed.
In my little scenario, they wouldn't be able to go to retail with the rest of the skipped minis unless they gave those to backers free as well. What I'm presenting is a one and done solution where whatever they make they make and they go to retail with only that. They'd basically be washing their hands of us and the robotech license except for selling what they've already designed and produced. They don't get to screw over backers AND then offer the products they screwed them out of for sale.
Agreed on most everything you've said. I disagree with cutting back on sculpts, not because I don't think it's a good idea, but because I think it's as likely to end in refund demands as not. *snip* For example, subtract the Gnerls from your list. Still happy to take that? Subtract the Super Valks? Still happy? At some point, likely before it gets to nothing, you won't. And some people will have a much higher initial threshold. Not getting the MPA experimentals? Fine. But losing the Ghosts or Lancers (or both) would be a dealbreaker). There's 5000+ backers. I'm sure at every possible removal there'd be some for who it'd be a step too far.
It's obvious that there would be unhappy folks no matter which ones you cut but you can't please everyone all the time. There is a wide range though between that and displeasing everyone all the time (except for a dozen employess, freelancers, and wannabe's who are just megaversal ambassadors currently on the forums). That's why I suggested going back on the unlocks in order instead of just cherry picking the ones I don't like. It's open and impartial as you can get.
It is open, and impartial, but it's also not really responsible. While I know it's a piece that provokes emotion, the Monster is likely going to be three if not more sprues. For an item I'd be surprised went to more than a quarter of backers. Whereas the Ghosts/Lancers, there's 13,000 of each owed, and they could concievably be a single sprue if they're not focusing so much on retail. Similarly, 19500 Gnerls and MPA's are owed, again, potentially handled by a single mold. And I doubt most backers would prefer Zentradi Heavy Infantry over FPA or Armored Valks, but the ZHI was unlocked earlier. I'm just pointing out there's no simple solution, and even an impartial one is going to have some people flipping tables.
And that's not discounting either that PB could consider that a failure (and they won't accept that), or they literally have nothing left. What if all they have is funds for two models to be completed?
Then it would be obvious that they misused the money in a criminal fashion and NOTHING we suggest here would work including your paper minis. Also, on a side note, if they made the minis out of mashed potatoes with gravy decals then we'd finally have mouth watering minis after all these years!
BWA! Though I'm not sure international backers would want to eat them, given the 6 monthish timeframe Wave 1 took to deliver.
Or, what happens if they can do what you listed (give or take), you get those, and then they go retail with the rest? Personally, the idea of PB making any profit on RRT after backers took a content cut, would be pretty distasteful. Heck, they make enough on retail to do an additional model? Then what happens? Cause once the KS has been declared "paid out", I'm pretty sure backers are hosed.
In my little scenario, they wouldn't be able to go to retail with the rest of the skipped minis unless they gave those to backers free as well. What I'm presenting is a one and done solution where whatever they make they make and they go to retail with only that. They'd basically be washing their hands of us and the robotech license except for selling what they've already designed and produced. They don't get to screw over backers AND then offer the products they screwed them out of for sale.
It'd be kind of a hard thing to enforce though. Once the Kickstarter is done, and I doubt PB would do it if there was a lien on future earnings, as per the KSFAQ, "Project creators keep 100% ownership of their work.". If the game was to end up successful (a monumental task), I don't see what'd stop them from being able to do more in the future. I mean, it's not like PB care considerably about how they're perceived, or that they haven't gone back on their word to backers multiple times in the past. Would you really trust them if they said they wouldn't do any more going forward? Or that yes, all backers would get, for free, anything owed they eventually produced?
It is open, and impartial, but it's also not really responsible. While I know it's a piece that provokes emotion, the Monster is likely going to be three if not more sprues. For an item I'd be surprised went to more than a quarter of backers. Whereas the Ghosts/Lancers, there's 13,000 of each owed, and they could concievably be a single sprue if they're not focusing so much on retail. Similarly, 19500 Gnerls and MPA's are owed, again, potentially handled by a single mold. And I doubt most backers would prefer Zentradi Heavy Infantry over FPA or Armored Valks, but the ZHI was unlocked earlier. I'm just pointing out there's no simple solution, and even an impartial one is going to have some people flipping tables.
Very good points.. but the flip side of that is that if they only need to make 1,000 Monsters but every backer at a BC and up gets two ghosts each (so 10,000+ minis) then the costs may swing back over to the monster (especially if they switch material to something with a higher per model cost like metal or resin). Going with the route that pleases (or fulfills in some way) the most check boxes of rewards is a reasonable route as well.
It'd be kind of a hard thing to enforce though. Once the Kickstarter is done, and I doubt PB would do it if there was a lien on future earnings, as per the KSFAQ, "Project creators keep 100% ownership of their work.". If the game was to end up successful (a monumental task), I don't see what'd stop them from being able to do more in the future. I mean, it's not like PB care considerably about how they're perceived, or that they haven't gone back on their word to backers multiple times in the past. Would you really trust them if they said they wouldn't do any more going forward? Or that yes, all backers would get, for free, anything owed they eventually produced?
It's impossible to enforce short of a lawsuit... but at least that "promise" would be on the record, enforceable for those who want to persue it (not me), and I would agree with it as a resolution. If they agreed to it, then RickFury could unleash his tide of legal devastation on them for that as well if they later used the retail profits (if any) to come out with those minis. I wouldn't bother and at least I'd have most of the minis I'd have pledged for. If they offered to give the minis due for free and have the backer pay the imaginary wave 3 shipping, I'd consider that.
Only Judge Judy can save us now... I'd pay $5 to have Kevin Siembieda try his "we're working on it so you can't have any product or money back even though we have literally nothing to show for 8 months of supposed work" excuse on her.
They're apparently "working and planning for more support of Robotech® RPG Tactics."
They're also working long and hard on stuff. Really long. Really hard. They tell us so.
They've done some paper standees for RRT. It's only a year past when it might have been useful (ie, when the boxes were going out). Because IMO, it's unlikely that anyone who hasn't put their stuff together in the last year, are suddenly going to be inspired now. At least that's how I see it.
They did an in-store demo at a local store, and gave them a fairly reasonable plug. Honestly, not a bad idea. Again, I think, 6-9 months late.
" In the months ahead, we’ll be making moves to strongly support Robotech® RPG Tactics™ with demo packages and organized play.". Another "This'd have been good if it'd been in place a while ago, but it's a good start.
As for Wave 2? In the immortal words of Billy Birmingham, we've got feth all for you. Literally, this is it. "As for Wave Two, we are looking into and exploring some new options with regard to manufacturing and reduced piece count, while working on other areas of support.".
Oh, and the Christmas Grab Bags spruiking has begun. Cause of course it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK, it's been brought to my attention that some are getting frustrated by the lack of progress especially in light of the attempt to "reduce parts count". So I figured I'd do another listing.
September 18 "We continue to explore ways to reduce the piece count without sacrificing quality and are considering every possibility."
September 24 "Meanwhile, we continue to explore ways to reduce the piece count and are considering every possibility without sacrificing quality."
October 8 "As for Wave Two, we continue to explore our options with regard to manufacturing and reduced piece count. We thought we had something that would work, but some concerns have been raised and we are looking into it more as well as into other options."
October 16 "As for Wave Two, we are looking into and exploring some new options with regard to manufacturing and reduced piece count, while working on other areas of support."
So, they've been doing this for at least a month, while working really hard. And long. And hard. And long. And they've got zero to show for it. Zero, zip , nada, zilch, bupkis, nothing, nicht, nil, naught, skunk, diddily squat, a big fat goose egg.
At some point, you need to crap or get off the pot. Just a reminder, the last non-cancelled date for completion for Palladium is end of Q1, 2016. According to the Forar count, 167 days.
SeanDrake wrote: Hmmmm if they are looking for a new manufacturer someone should point them towards prodos.
Defiance. That way people might actually believe them when they say it wasn't their fault it all went to hell. Again.
The same could/would be said with Prodos, although that is a case of incompetence just like Palladium as opposed to outright fraud like with Defiance. Either way, stupidity is multiplicative in my experience with others, not additive. If Prodos AND Palladium collaborated on this, it wouldn't be dumb x2 but rather dumb squared. Now, if their defense, Prodos has at least surprisingly been trying to reform their ways for the past couple of days so hopefully the above won't be true in the long run from now on but only time will tell. Promises of new open communication and improvement in the management of troubled KS ring hollow for me in the short term; it's only if the change is permanent that matters.
So in that month (or was it 2?) Palladium has been diligently working on trying to reduce the parts on an undisclosed number of wave 2 models to no avail. . .
I picked up a DIY casting kit and working from the convention exclusives, have managed to get myself a customized squad of FPA and started on the MPA. I actually started on the MPA, but didn't leave enough spacing between pieces in the first mold so after about 4 or 5 pulls, the molds fell apart. SInce it was my first try at casting, I took 4-5 pulls to get enough parts to build two MPA. I plan on including the John Woo MPA ace as well as the Melee Stun Baton MPA ace.
Next is to cast up 4 more MPA units and maybe try to convert the Nousgarma Ger suits with missile pods from light artillery pod spares. The only problem with them is that the backpack boosters are a bit larger and I don't think I have the scuplting skill so I'll just have to see how it goes with the smaller backpack.
I also need to get ahold of a Miriya Super Gerwalk and see if I can cast up parts to convert the regular valk kits to Supers.
The boosters should be reusable in all 3 modes and I'll need to adapt the top fuselage from the guardian for use in fighter mode as well.
The arm missile pods should be reusable in all 3 modes though I'll have to make adjustments to support the gunpod in fighter mode.
The legs should be resusable as-is for guardian, they can just replace the lower legs on the battloids and will require a little bit of modding/greenstuff for fighter, but once I get a master and mold that, I'll just cast that provided I don't lose too much detail.
Conrad Turner wrote: At this point, someone should point them at anyone with a pack of modelling putty and more than one finger!
First, that is a harsh dig at Michael Perry.
Second, would you really rather this be passed off to MIKH or Jody Siegel?
sorry John, I can't answer that as I have absolutely no idea who Michael Perry, MIKH or Jody Seigel are.
My comment was only a dig, harsh or otherwise, in your own mind - and I can't be held responsible for that.
Given that the rewards that were stated during the campaign to be in resin could, and should, have been worked on from the day after the capaign closed, many of the people on this very forum could have sculpted the masters from milliput, produced the moulds, and cast up the final parts for those rewards BY THE TIME WAVE 1 SHIPPED, the point still stands.
What HAS PB been doing to make ANY progress on those rewards? Because from where I sit, it sure looks like Bupkiss to me!
Conrad Turner wrote: What HAS PB been doing to make ANY progress on those rewards? Because from where I sit, it sure looks like Bupkiss to me!
PB has been all talk when it comes to wave two. Before the latest cut past comments he said at length that they have been speaking to their China reps. So your right it's all bull. Wave two is as of now vaporware, at least that's what I get out of it. Until then the only thing that you can count on is WRRD continuing to apologize for Kevin's incompetence. WRRD that was not a dig at you. I know your still passionate about rrt and without you admitting it even I can tell your disappointment. You had a dream and PB turned it into a nightmare.
sorry John, I can't answer that as I have absolutely no idea who Michael Perry, MIKH or Jody Seigel are.
Mildly off-topic, but it needs saying since the Perrys are some of the more influential sculptors of wargaming. Michael and his brother Alan are the Perry twins who sculpted many models for Games Workshop before moving onto their own brand called Perry Miniatures. The have made what many consider to be some of the best historical models on the market and in plastic. Both brothers are very heavily into historical re-enacting and it was while doing this that Michael lost his right (dominant) hand in a cannon accident. He then spent the time learning to sculpt with his left hand and returned to form doing better with his remaining non-dominant hand than most people can do with two.
While I believe you when you say there was no offense intended, you can see where saying that fingers are required could be seen as an uncalled-for broadside against a respected sculptor since his situation is rather distinct and unique in our very niche market. An assumption on John's part that you were aware of him, but if you were at a party and made that statement within earshot of Mr. Perry there's a good chance he'd be hurt. Granted, he'd probably channel that into making more insane displays for the Tower of London...
Getting back on-topic, I'd say even his earliest attempts would put Palladium to shame, but in order to compare something we'd have to see something to compare against, wouldn't we?
Now that I have read that, I do recall the name Perry in connection with GW at some point, but I was unaware of the man in particular, and certainly did not know about the accident.
I am glad that he didn't let it stop him, and appologise for any unintended offence.
I also need to get ahold of a Miriya Super Gerwalk and see if I can cast up parts to convert the regular valk kits to Supers.
The boosters should be reusable in all 3 modes and I'll need to adapt the top fuselage from the guardian for use in fighter mode as well.
The arm missile pods should be reusable in all 3 modes though I'll have to make adjustments to support the gunpod in fighter mode.
The legs should be resusable as-is for guardian, they can just replace the lower legs on the battloids and will require a little bit of modding/greenstuff for fighter, but once I get a master and mold that, I'll just cast that provided I don't lose too much detail.
I already got the top boosters and the arm boosters done for my super sprue:
Sorry about the confusion, but this being a GW-centric site, I figured the Perrys were common knowledge. The guy does good work, despite the loss of use of his then-dominant hand.
According to the article, ~60% of backers have not yet received the product they're due (in this case, a 3D printer) and the company is saying they are looking into further funding to finish, followed by another claim that they're scrapping the current tech and 'going back to basics' (which is exactly what gives me profound faith in a project; out of money AND starting over!)
Note: yes, this is not an apples to apples comparison. I'm merely commenting on a financially large and successful campaign seeming to be in significant trouble. Which is the kind of thing that starts getting people talking about the uncomfortable truths with minimal backer protection and creators offering things they can't make good on (be it product quantity, product quality, both, time frame, etc).
I feel bad for the backers who are left in limbo, but until people are spurred into action, I suspect we won't see much change.
Either way, I would not hold my breath. The ship is already filling with water and nobody seems to want to bail it out anymore since the Captain has no interest in trying to fix the leaks.
The 3055 ones should be easy since things will be 80% done since all that will need to be done is adding a few new units and then changing the stats for 3050 upgrades.
Wow Mike, neat stuff.
When my life gets a quiet moment I will take a good look at this.
So we grab RRT models for BT and now you make rules so we can grab BT models for RRT... genius! Evil! EXCELLENT SMITHERS!
<ahem>
Have you got around to looking at their "Alphastrike"?
It gave me and my friends some hope of playing massive games of BT.
My friends are rather excited about that but if you are ready to make a fast and dirty RRT version of BT I would support, heck, I may even get excited.
Either way, I would not hold my breath. The ship is already filling with water and nobody seems to want to bail it out anymore since the Captain has no interest in trying to fix the leaks.
Why so cynical? :-P
Also, it's not KS changing intentionally that I'm hoping for.
It's someone looking at them, looking at existing consumer protection laws, seeing the *massive* gulf between them and deciding to slap the platform around until something sensible shows up.
It might take years. Hell, it might take decades. But it's not impossible.
There's already been some movement at the state and federal levels (and a bunch of standing around as well). As the platform/genre/business model/etc grows, so will attention on it.
Cool. I think the boosters would be better in 2 parts. Reason for this is that the basic versions that we see, the front bit is a micro-missile launcher. This can get swapped out for extra fuel tanks (as seen with the Elint Seeker or Super Ostrich trainer) or twin particle cannons on the Strike variant.
I already got the top boosters and the arm boosters done for my super sprue:
I'm surprised PB hasn't considered leveraging the fact that their current stuff is already in a bazillion pieces and just design the Super Valks and VF-1D/VE-1 kits to take advantage of that.
To convert a regular Valk to a VF-1D is pretty simple. Add a separate top forward fuselage piece for the battloid/fighter/gerwalk modes (the canopy goes back further for the back-seater), add alternate head and done. For the VE-1, add 3 radomes and the 3 sensor pods to replace the gunpod. 1 Add-on sprue to the regular Valkyrie box and they're set. Additional arms/legs options that can be swapped with the current ones would be icing. Knowing how PB likes to split things, say 42 total parts on the add-on sprue before any extra arms/legs and you could probably cut that down to half.
For the Supers, 3 sets of back boosters that can be added to the back of any mode, 2 sets of arm pods for battloid and gerwalk, 1 arm pod for fighter, a new fighter fuselage and new set of legs. So that's a new sprue for the fighter and an add-on sprue with super parts for the gerwalk and battloid. Reuse the current gerwalk and battloid sprues and they're done with that too.. Say 27 parts (6 back boosters, 4 arm pods, 1 arm pod for fighter, top/bottom fighter fuselage, 4 fighter leg parts split down the middle, 2 wings, gun pod, 4 battloid leg parts split down the middle, 4 guardian leg parts split down the middle) per valkyrie at minimum, probably more as PB would split the boosters and arm pods down the middle as well?
cannonfodr wrote: Cool. I think the boosters would be better in 2 parts. Reason for this is that the basic versions that we see, the front bit is a micro-missile launcher. This can get swapped out for extra fuel tanks (as seen with the Elint Seeker or Super Ostrich trainer) or twin particle cannons on the Strike variant.
I already got the top boosters and the arm boosters done for my super sprue:
I'm surprised PB hasn't considered leveraging the fact that their current stuff is already in a bazillion pieces and just design the Super Valks and VF-1D/VE-1 kits to take advantage of that.
To convert a regular Valk to a VF-1D is pretty simple. Add a separate top forward fuselage piece for the battloid/fighter/gerwalk modes (the canopy goes back further for the back-seater), add alternate head and done. For the VE-1, add 3 radomes and the 3 sensor pods to replace the gunpod. 1 Add-on sprue to the regular Valkyrie box and they're set. Additional arms/legs options that can be swapped with the current ones would be icing. Knowing how PB likes to split things, say 42 total parts on the add-on sprue before any extra arms/legs and you could probably cut that down to half.
For the Supers, 3 sets of back boosters that can be added to the back of any mode, 2 sets of arm pods for battloid and gerwalk, 1 arm pod for fighter, a new fighter fuselage and new set of legs. So that's a new sprue for the fighter and an add-on sprue with super parts for the gerwalk and battloid. Reuse the current gerwalk and battloid sprues and they're done with that too.. Say 27 parts (6 back boosters, 4 arm pods, 1 arm pod for fighter, top/bottom fighter fuselage, 4 fighter leg parts split down the middle, 2 wings, gun pod, 4 battloid leg parts split down the middle, 4 guardian leg parts split down the middle) per valkyrie at minimum, probably more as PB would split the boosters and arm pods down the middle as well?
the boosters are in 2 parts (one booster and one booster on both arms and legs), they are only attached like in a sprue which can be cut off. the leg pieces will be trickier and in 2 pieces for each leg I think, I'm doing them like the "Jetfire" transformer toy.
or did you mean split each booster? who do you think I am Palladium ?
Either way, I would not hold my breath. The ship is already filling with water and nobody seems to want to bail it out anymore since the Captain has no interest in trying to fix the leaks.
Why so cynical? :-P
Also, it's not KS changing intentionally that I'm hoping for.
It's someone looking at them, looking at existing consumer protection laws, seeing the *massive* gulf between them and deciding to slap the platform around until something sensible shows up.
It might take years. Hell, it might take decades. But it's not impossible.
There's already been some movement at the state and federal levels (and a bunch of standing around as well). As the platform/genre/business model/etc grows, so will attention on it.
So, if Mike stopped working on the bucket brigade... who is left? WRRD? What about the guy (iirc Bad Syntax/Eric Smith) who paid $5,000 and posted those unboxing pics/videos from gencon? Is he still active (either on KS, the palladium forums, or the facebook group? From a quick look at the KS comments, Jaymz and Jorel don't seem keen but both fluctuate wildly with their love of Palladium and go back for regularly scheduled beatings but isn't Jaymz the guy who set up the wiki a year or two back? They let go/fired/separated/whatever the guy who was supposed to be the "robotech" guy a while back and shoehorned in a pencil sketch artist to cover his spot... but we never hear/heard from either for the most part. What about the vulgar canadian taxi driver (alex clark? or was it someone else?) who made it his personal mission to insult everyone expressing concern over a year ago when the project had quick obviously struck an iceberg. Is it pretty much just Red Duke keeping the flames of excitement alive and NMI with his razor sharp knowledge of the game mechanics working on further upgrades? Obviously in addition to Kevin, Wayne, and Alex of course.
I'm trying to remember the other names that don't generally post on dakka in the community back before wave 1, whether good or bad.
I haven't seen a Robotech video scroll across my youtube subscriptions or recommendations in a long while. I assume Dave/gamerongames had that melt down and managed to annoy everyone other than palladium a while back. The guy who did the open house video that showed the most awesomest demo video EvAR! hasn't to my knowledge covered the game since. The was a "robotech guy" who did terrain videos and some unboxings but I haven't seen anything there either. The last thing I saw that was new was a battlereport from an Australian 40k group (that I follow for 40k Horus Heresy game videos) a few months back. Obviously the tourny scene was still born given no tourney at gencon and failed tournies at the open house and adepticon. Other than Jamyz wiki (if he still has that.. haven't checked for months), are there any websites besides the facebook group(s) that focus on robotech? I'm trying to see what the overall level of engagement is outside of dakka (my usual and preferred place to check) and the palladium forums (which tend to be dead except for spurts of complaining).
edit: I forgot to mention that the two threads I initially linked in my blog haven't been updated since last 6-10 months either last I checked.
I'm thinking split the top/back mounted boosters into 2 parts, front and back. According to the source material the front part of the boosters are modular and can support at least 3 different load-outs.
1. Micro-Missile Launcher (Standard)
2. Twin Particle Cannons (Strike)
3. Additional Fuel (Trainer & Elint Seeker? Looking at the art for those, it looks like entirely different booster to me)
Images from the Macross Mecha Manual for reference:
Strike VF-1S with Micro Missile Launcher and Particle Cannon
Spoiler:
Super VT-1D Trainer with additional fuel
Spoiler:
That said it'd be easy enough to just cast/print alternate boosters in one piece. I guess they're also not exactly Robotech, but given how much support PB has given, RRT is dead and we all might as well take it in our own preferred directions.
the boosters are in 2 parts (one booster and one booster on both arms and legs), they are only attached like in a sprue which can be cut off. the leg pieces will be trickier and in 2 pieces for each leg I think, I'm doing them like the "Jetfire" transformer toy.
or did you mean split each booster? who do you think I am Palladium ?
well right now my other service expired so i'm stuck tinkering with Tinkercad (free service) which is not very viable so my creations are limited and time consuming.
my other service I could stretch mold and such, tinkercad is basic shape use.
Okay, so post-splitting is usually obnoxious, but there's a lot to break down, so here we go! (people feel free to add on here, but this is from memory and with my own bias, I'm giving it as I see it, not looking to argue particular minutia, I'm looking at you Rick);
warboss wrote: So, if Mike stopped working on the bucket brigade... who is left? WRRD? What about the guy (iirc Bad Syntax/Eric Smith) who paid $5,000 and posted those unboxing pics/videos from gencon? Is he still active (either on KS, the palladium forums, or the facebook group?
I find Eric Smith utterly intolerable, and as such have him blocked on FB. My occasional glances through Mike's page are much more pleasant that way. I believe I've seen what appears to be people chatting/bickering with him, but can't say with certainty how much he's around on Mike's page. Far as I know he's never around on either PB's FB or Forums. Frankly, after his "IP LAW IS THE DEVEL!" explosion, I stopped taking him remotely seriously.
From a quick look at the KS comments, Jaymz and Jorel don't seem keen but both fluctuate wildly with their love of Palladium and go back for regularly scheduled beatings but isn't Jaymz the guy who set up the wiki a year or two back?
Jaymz is indeed the gent who set up the wiki. To the best of my knowledge, he has become disillusioned with PB's shenanigans once more, given up his Megaversal Ambassadorship, and stated that someone else is welcome to maintain the Wiki, he will do so until that happens or he gets bored. That is said without judgement or sarcasm; I hold nothing against Jaymz and find it regretable that one of the few people really on top of supporting this game's fanbase is stepping back in frustration.
They let go/fired/separated/whatever the guy who was supposed to be the "robotech" guy a while back and shoehorned in a pencil sketch artist to cover his spot... but we never hear/heard from either for the most part.
Yeah, we never heard from the last guy much (Jeff?) or the new guy (Charles?). Far as I know it's generally Wayne and Kevin doing updates/weekly propaganda. Either of them (during their tenure) have basically been Special Guest Appearances.
What about the vulgar canadian taxi driver (alex clark? or was it someone else?) who made it his personal mission to insult everyone expressing concern over a year ago when the project had quick obviously struck an iceberg.
Alex Clark or Clarke is indeed some vulgar Canadian who loves him some Battletech and spent a lot of time giving a lot of people gak over any criticism whatsoever. Lately he's been lobbing mockery at PB on Mike's page, so I guess it's alright now. As long as HE thinks it is, of course (and deviation from how much or little scorn is lobbed still gets image memes and random bullgak).
The taxi/limo guy was a guy named Duncan. Other than 1 comment during The Great Scale Debate, he's been silent since receiving his stuff in 2014.
The other obnoxious guy was Joshua Russell, one of the "omg call the whaaaaambulance" types who bought up a bunch of pledges and apparently resold them for a tidy profit on ebay. Which was hilarious because he threw a tantrum that would've embarrassed a 6 year old when FFP told him to take a hike when he wanted to buy a bunch of Shadows of Brimstone stuff with his mighty $1 placeholder pledge. Saw him playing at one of their events at Gencon, actually. Kind of a donkey cave in real life too.
Is it pretty much just Red Duke keeping the flames of excitement alive and NMI with his razor sharp knowledge of the game mechanics working on further upgrades? Obviously in addition to Kevin, Wayne, and Alex of course.
I'm trying to remember the other names that don't generally post on dakka in the community back before wave 1, whether good or bad.
Maybe it's just me, but NMI's hand seems to have been considerably less iron clad of late. No idea if that's a policy change, or he just grew bored of it, or what.
It is funny looking over the names that have come and gone and those that have stuck around. I wonder if we'll still be chattering away in a year when they continue to struggle to figure out where all those dastardly sculpts went, or in two years when the resin masters come in and it's just playdough someone left in the sun for too long? Who will have gotten bored, who will be back, what new names will join in the shenanigans?
Forar wrote: The taxi/limo guy was a guy named Duncan. Other than 1 comment during The Great Scale Debate, he's been silent since receiving his stuff in 2014.
maybe he saw his gak and wonder why he defended it
According to the article, ~60% of backers have not yet received the product they're due (in this case, a 3D printer) and the company is saying they are looking into further funding to finish, followed by another claim that they're scrapping the current tech and 'going back to basics' (which is exactly what gives me profound faith in a project; out of money AND starting over!)
Note: yes, this is not an apples to apples comparison. I'm merely commenting on a financially large and successful campaign seeming to be in significant trouble. Which is the kind of thing that starts getting people talking about the uncomfortable truths with minimal backer protection and creators offering things they can't make good on (be it product quantity, product quality, both, time frame, etc).
I feel bad for the backers who are left in limbo, but until people are spurred into action, I suspect we won't see much change.
This could be just the impetuous that was needed.
I backed this and was one of the few who received my printer; probably because it's located IN my country so it's a lot easier for me to sue them. It's decent tech, pretty easy to use but I feel the company had too much ambition at the start. They started trying to get certification very aggressively so they could push their printers to massretail, which delayed their process and probably spent a fair amt of money trying to get them.
Thanks for the update/corrections, Forar. To answer your question, I suspect it'll be the same folks talking about robotech (both here, on KS, and the PB forums) in a year that have been for the past few months. At this point, the lookiloos and casual thread followers have all but disappeared from the discussion.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Sorry about the confusion, but this being a GW-centric site, I figured the Perrys were common knowledge. The guy does good work, despite the loss of use of his then-dominant hand.
Well, given that the devil we know is PB, and the massive amount of 'Nothing' we've been getting from them over the last 6+ months, they are considerably into negative equity on trust so far as I am concerned. Given that you say the others are notorious for lateness, how late is this campaign again?
If I remember correctly, we are coming up on 2 years on from the initial KS fulfillment date. PB may think it's OK as they have sent something to every backer, but my pledge remains outstanding. I pledged for "A New Dawn" and have only received one of my add-ons so far. We are also already seeing other members here showcasing their own efforts at producing models PB have not been producing yet - mainly invid, it's true - and their efforts far surpass PB's on everything not yet received! I don't understand how anyone can say that PB will deliver given enough time. Options at this point seem to be either forget all about it [maybe one day your package will come, but don't hold your breath.] or sue them and try and get your money back.
On the other hand, I have also pledged on the "Thunderbirds 1965" campaign to produce 3 complete new episodes based on the old vinyls. In the MONTH since that campaign ended, the first episode has been completed and a work print has been screened. Ok, there is some post-production work still to do on that episode, and the other two episodes and stretch goals to produce, but they are going to be able to complete with a much smaller margin of over-run than PB was capable of ending up with for WAVE 1!
So, as far as I am concerned, PB have stolen my money. I don't believe I will ever get anything more for what I have paid for, the campaign has failed in almost every detail except PB raised the money they wanted. If any people manage to sue them and get money back, it will only reduce my chances even further. So I have had to work a weekend to make up the shortfall (replace that money so I can then spend it on something I CAN get!) and have given up on the campaign.
If I EVER get anything further from PB, it's be a shock. I certainly don't intend on getting anything that will mean more money ends up in their hands, so I will start combing the sales and E-Bay for the single set of VF models I would want [also not prepared to pay the UK RRP for these things new, never have been.]
As for enthusiasm, Palladium is looking into and exploring some new options with regard to giving a gak and reduced motivation, while working on other areas of anything but wave 2.
warboss wrote: Thanks for the update/corrections, Forar. To answer your question, I suspect it'll be the same folks talking about robotech (both here, on KS, and the PB forums) in a year that have been for the past few months. At this point, the lookiloos and casual thread followers have all but disappeared from the discussion.
Still here. Just nothing new to add to the mix.
Aside: I was in that Buccaneer KS. I was lucky; I bailed earlier and bought another 3D printer rather than wait endlessly for their round-the-block approach. To be fair to them, I bailed because what they eventually offered did not meet my needs, and they updated well enough during the design/ build/ certification process. It was particularly eye-opening on how many things can screw up during the certification process, and that I believe was one of the things that nailed them flat down for too long.
Do you guys think PB is hoping we just plain give-up on this wave 2 of the KS?
The logical result is we walk away, never looking back.
They may be hoping for the illogical result of us saying "oh well" and buying more of their stuff (but really? really?).
Do they think they can entice a new batch of suckers to buy their stuff? With what??
Last option is they are "diligently" working on it to the usual PB timeline that could possibly last a decade or more.
Which would require the patience of the saints or the walking away option.
I will update my address with them and who knows, I may get some surprise in my late 50's.
Do you really see any other possibility whatsoever?
They couldn't finish it when they had a bunch of cash and the ability to get some savings by doing it all on top of each other.
Every sign has pointed to them being out of money since...I'll be generous and say February, even though the last real progress was see...hell, I don't remember when at this point.
PB has always been a shoestring company. They aren't suddenly going to sell one of Kevin's Masterpieces at Sotheby's and use that money to fund another wave.
They will never have the money to complete it. The sooner they admit to it the more angry people they'll have. The longer they can put off admitting it, the more people will just chalk it up as a loss and move on.
It's really their only option, being both incompetent and weaselly.
And until they do meet their KS obligations, the only thing we can do as backers is to be diligent in telling others of the truth of how they haven't fulfilled their promises despite a grace period of two extra years and how they really treat backers through actions which doesn't jive with their empty words.
I hate rewarding bad behavior but walking away is the only way to go (for me) and I find little to disagree with you there Merijeek.
I got a few digs in with the BBB and my government (who knows what they are doing) so at least something is on record, not much publically except on the KS page.
They will absolutely be able to find more suckers. This kickstarter is itself an example of a new crop of suckers being made. Pallladium had a bad rep and business problems that should have been a red flag for all of us.
We are the new suckers, and if we just walk away there will be more made when they wait 5 years for memories to dull and do an indiegogo campaign for rift rpg tactics. Not saying it is illogical to walk away, but it is how con artists are able to operate for so long unnoticed.
I've long said that I'll be backing any future Palladium crowdfunding for $1.00 to make sure I inform folks about the true character of the company they're going to be dealing with and what to actually expect instead of the soon to be broken promises.
Yeah, there was another one floating around IIRC during the sham gencon vote with a different pic and the "achievement unlocked: screwing over 5,000 backers simultaneously" or somesuch.
The comment chatter about a potential statute of limitations is interesting, it highlights directly the matter that has come up time and again whenever people go off on a 'omg be patient for years, it's been decades what's another 1/2/3/5+ years?' rant.
If there is an applicable SoL, and it's ticking away, how long before people are allowed to pursue what legal avenues exist? Assuming it's at least 5 years, we're almost half way there.
I suppose this is more of a meta commentary, but people have definitely popped up to decry the usual threats of litigation, but it's not all empty, it's not all hot air, how long is a company allowed to faff about before it's reasonable to pursue other avenues of recourse?
More of a rhetorical question than one we need to answer directly. I'm sure some will say "never", or "omg shut up", but think about it; if it's X years, and PB crosses that threshold to the point they cannot be held responsible any longer in a court of law, does anyone really think they'll continue to dutifully buckle down and spend untold thousands of dollars across years and years to deliver on something they no longer have to?
Food for thought I guess.
I mean, until Rick's Legal Suplex crits them for "everything they're worth plus 10%" in pain and suffering. :-P
I mean, until Rick's Legal Suplex crits them for "everything they're worth plus 10%" in pain and suffering. :-P
ahh if only, only way to do that is if the FTC steps in or such, as to when my issue goes to court, i'm not getting much myself (worse case scenario, just what PB owes me, best case scenario full refund and up to $1200 in damages according to my attorney), my attorney on the other hand will make a nice tidy sum.
I suppose Manchu could answer the question with certainty if he is still followng the threadvbut in my vast law and order reruns law knowledge the statute of limitations applies to the criminal count of fraud that would be brought about by the applicable attorney general. You as an individual could still sue palladium for breech of contract in civil court iirc.
I think it has become painfully clear that Palladium plans to just drag this out beyond the hope of any legal action being successful, without actually producing anything. And just hoping people forget about it and shovel them fistfuls of $$$s for whatever their next obsolete product based on outdated rules will be. I would be willing to bet there are still suckers, er, customers out there who will still do this. After all, there was ample evidence of Palladium incompetence before the Robotech KS, yet people gave anyway...
Since it came up in someone else's post, Bad Sellout (Syntax) did show his face briefly on KS during the pointless great scale debate a few months back after not being around for awhile, then submerged back into the swamp of his making again and hasn't been seen since.
n815e wrote: HG got what they wanted from that ks though (a new movie license). They just wanted to show interest in the property.
You think movie licenses move so quickly that the KS had any influence of any kind on that? Not a chance in hell.
Perhaps you are right. But if something was in the works and they wanted some leverage... I also have the feeling Tommy Yune isn't a strong negotiator, Frank Agrama is surprised the property is still worth something and it wasn't exactly difficult to come to an agreement. If Palladium can afford it then it isn't exactly a hot commodity.
totalfailure wrote: After all, there was ample evidence of Palladium incompetence before the Robotech KS, yet people gave anyway...
I'm not so sure about that. At least in my case, the only reason I gave in and decided to back was because at the time they made quite clear that it was Ninja Division who was doing the KS, and KS and PB were there to oversee it, and only that.
Yes, it turned out that was so much horsegak, but... those were the reasons.
totalfailure wrote: After all, there was ample evidence of Palladium incompetence before the Robotech KS, yet people gave anyway...
I'm not so sure about that. At least in my case, the only reason I gave in and decided to back was because at the time they made quite clear that it was Ninja Division who was doing the KS, and KS and PB were there to oversee it, and only that.
Yes, it turned out that was so much horsegak, but... those were the reasons.
Pretty much the same for me.
If I'm truly honest with myself, I'd have possibly backed regardless, but for much less than I did. Maybe a Battlecry, and one or two non-BC upgrades. But it was ND's involvement, and the apparent "We're just letting ND run wild and are just here for licensing reasons, and a slice of the pie." attitude from PB that pushed me into pulling the trigger and sinking significantly more into it.
The "shoulda known better" argument is only applicable if you not only use it to excuse the poorly managed/scheduled/executed project, but also use it to excuse intentionally misleading backers into who was running this thing. There's a big difference between poor management practices, and borderline fraud.
On an unrelated note, I wonder if the Gloval Report backers have got more than their Wave 1 Battlecry? Ratio-wise, they've got the potential to be the most screwed backers of all. Even though most of their owed product is available to complete. And given it's been literally more than a year since it's release, there's not really an excuse (other than "We don't wanna", and "We can't afford to") why they haven't been done, and shipped. It's possible it has happened, I guess. But given Kevin's penchant for self-congratulation, I'd have expected to see it mentioned, especially if he'd been able to elicit any approving words from those three.
A lawsuit would work if the backers banded together (would save a lot $). Would work better if there was an attorney here in the gaming community that would help for a chunk of the change we'd get as we shut Palladian down and take all the owner's personal stuff... home, cars, etc that he financed with our funds.
455_PWR wrote: A lawsuit would work if the backers banded together (would save a lot $). Would work better if there was an attorney here in the gaming community that would help for a chunk of the change we'd get as we shut Palladian down and take all the owner's personal stuff... home, cars, etc that he financed with our funds.
That only works if the backers are more interested in killing PB than in getting their stuff.
Because it's very doubtful a large class action will get more than pennies on the dollar. PB would have no choice but to fight it, as I doubt they've got enough assets to cover a full refund settlement and stay solvent. So there's no reason for them not to go all out defending themselves. They'd have nothing to lose.
After you remove the money spent on defense fees, and the winning lawyer's fee, from all the assets PB have? I doubt you would get a 10% return. So people in for $270 (the statistical average), would at most get less than the value of an expansion box. Sadly, the only way a backer has a chance of getting back most, if not all of his pledge, is to go it alone, and have it settled and cashed out, likely with an NDA attached, before further claims came in. And a successful defense would kill the company and see backers with nothing too.
As for taking the owner's personal stuff, unless it was shown that Kickstarter funds were spent in a completely fraudulent manner, I'd expect there to be some form of corporate liability shield in place. Incorporation (which PB lists as being) typically keeps personal assets from legal claims, though I stand to be corrected, as business law varies from state to state, country to country.
So to reiterate, if you're wanting to get your money back, you likely need to do it individually, or on behalf of a very limited group. Anything else will kill the company, with backers having nothing to show for it. And if you're gonna do that, then the FTC or Michigan AG are much surer ways to get that done, with less hassle. Sure, the Michigan AG isn't progressing on the current complaints lodged, but they did leave open the possibility of re-opening the investigation if circumstances change.
totalfailure wrote: After all, there was ample evidence of Palladium incompetence before the Robotech KS, yet people gave anyway...
I'm not so sure about that. At least in my case, the only reason I gave in and decided to back was because at the time they made quite clear that it was Ninja Division who was doing the KS, and KS and PB were there to oversee it, and only that.
Yes, it turned out that was so much horsegak, but... those were the reasons.
This is why I get pissed at WRRD. In real life he probably a perfectly decent guy. But in this campaign he helped misrepresent the situation, and continues to do so.
First it was ND doing the work, then of course it's Palladium doing things what did you expect, then oh if only ND hadn't chose China, even though it's Palladium running things and always was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anybody else curious what exactly is required to get production started?
Assuming it is just a case of trying to reduce the part count, how many brick walls do Palladium have to hit before they decide that high part count is the way to go?
Joyboozer wrote: Anybody else curious what exactly is required to get production started? Assuming it is just a case of trying to reduce the part count, how many brick walls do Palladium have to hit before they decide that high part count is the way to go?
Not sure what you're meaning here. If you mean from a technical perspective, that's been covered in the past. They need the digital sculpt, {Pre Production Prototype}, sprue layout, {3D printing of}, milling of the molds, test sprues, allocation of production schedule, production. Then of course, bulk packing, Chinese customs, loading, shipping, unloading, US customs, ground transit, bulk unpacking, compilation, individual packing, and shipping via courier/USPS.
If you mean from Palladium's perspective, there's simply not enough information available to make even the vaguest estimate. We saw the status of the five items at the end of February. The remaining 19-21 items could be at that stage. They could be further along. They could be further back (that'd be my pick). Even those five items could have been worked on further, or they could have regressed, as the whole "minimize parts thing" means going back to the drawing board on at least some aspects.
There is speculation that it's more a funds issue than a production one. If PB don't have the funds to do it, there's no point rushing to get it ready for a production run they can't pay for.
Simply put, too little information available to make an assessment with any level of certainty.
I mean I'd like palladium pinned down, for them to say, ok we tried, it's this part count or it's nothing and just do it.
WRRD is on the inside, I'm sure as palladium are too busy he could let us know, what's the plan?
Joyboozer wrote: I mean I'd like palladium pinned down, for them to say, ok we tried, it's this part count or it's nothing and just do it.
WRRD is on the inside, I'm sure as palladium are too busy he could let us know, what's the plan?
Ahh. Gotcha. Good luck with that.
I'd like a pony. Made of diamonds. Ridden by a supermodel. Also made of diamonds.
I mean, as long as we're asking for stuff that's just not gonna happen, based on prior evidence.
Oh I know, it's more about convincing the whitest of white knights that he's actually neck deep in bs he's helping to perpetrate, maybe then we'll get the truth.
Joyboozer wrote: Anybody else curious what exactly is required to get production started?
Assuming it is just a case of trying to reduce the part count, how many brick walls do Palladium have to hit before they decide that high part count is the way to go?
Seriously you believe PB's line they are trying to reduce the part count? the designs are already done, they just don't have the money to do them, all this part count reduction nonsense is a stalling action till they can come up with a better idea on how to get the money to finish the project, that is if they even give a care about the backers at all.
the multi parts count was a joke and an excuse PB used saying it had to be that way, to hid the fact that PB is cheap and went the cheapest way possible in this entire operation, not to fault them for that since companies are out to make money after all.
but here we have several lone individuals without the equipment and resources PB has who are well in other words doing PB's job for them and doing a better job then PB.
This talk of our dear WRRD made me wonder at the evolution of chatter from him, and wandered through his old comments. In an effort to keep from being a donkey cave (intentionally at least) about it, I note that his commentary (as is mine and anyone else's) is publicly available, and I point this out more as a reflection of how the tone has changed in the campaign from one of the few people directly tied to it that has spoken up even infrequently.
From a perspective "behind the curtain" I have to say this.. This project was a BIG gamble from the start. I spent too many hours designing, thinking, and making phone calls trying to make this happen. We knew there were Robotech Fans "out there". We knew that if we built it they would come. This was a huge gamble that Palladium threw out there, and by the looks of it it is going to pay off well.. but when I talked with Kevin a LONG time ago, we were expecting a project that would get a few battle pods and veritech or three.. I thought that a $40,000 goal was a lofty one and would be hard to reach.. there was little thought early on as to lots of stretch goals and experimental mecha. at least be me. ALL OF YOU, made that happen. The prep work that larger companies do on their projects is different than what was going on here.Thankfully, everyone at Palladium and Ninje were prepared for the possibility of success.The project grew exponentially larger than initially expected, but we knew we had the personnel and with Ninja Division in our corner with their expertise, the project would happen. As a first Kickstarter to do. This was a big deal! As stated the learning curve was steep and the hours put into this were long, but the people working on the project want to see things done right. I've watched the project as much of you have and I have no complaints. Above all, the only thing you can blame Palladium or Anyone working on the project is that they are victims of their own commitment to seeing the project done right. If people cannot accept that everyone is trying to create the best game and miniatures they can for YOU, the fans, than you can go somewhere else. Don't complain here. I will not have you tarnish something that I feel so strongly about. I have seen this project go from two sentences typed on my computer to 1.4 million and the creation of every mini that I ever played with in my imagination! I'm here till the end!
Nov 2 2013 on #116: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Okay, this starts taking on a Kevin'esque tone. This comes from the Update on November 1st 2013 where they admit that December is no longer feasible, but also say February 2014 is possible (with no hint of wave splitting). A stark reminder (from the update) that even over a year into the project (remember, they allegedly started working on it at least half a year prior to the KS campaign), they definitely had no idea how far off they were, or were heavily committed to not letting on just yet.
As we move into the holidays I want to say thank you all for the patience and understanding that this is a considerable huge undertaking. Yes everyone is correct that GenCon is a big deal. Palladium is going to great lengths to supporting this game at GenCon. The booth this year is going to be huge. There is going to be lots of tables for RRPGT games and demos as well as games for the RPG's they carry. I will be there again this year and I'm really excited for it. It will be amazing! The models are currently being engineered for the sprues and the molds are being created. That takes time. The backers are their first priority so quality is priority. They are trying to get these minis produced as fast as possible and since the minis are so detailed. Production take time. That's the short of it and the problem. I am awed by how passionate some of you are and all comments are welcome. I guess what I want to say is happy holidays and when the backers get their minis you will not be disappointed! Tom
Dec 22 2013 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™
The key point here is the chatter about the models, sprues, and molds. Commentary on them being worked on, and yet a mere 5 weeks later(ish), Kevin drops the 2 Waves bomb on us. Which means that either WRRD isn't as in the loop as he implies, or knows but is doing the professional thing of not sharing info he's not supposed to. I'm going to assume the latter, but it means that his declarations of confidence and progress are tainted with Toeing The Company Line. Less of an insider, more of a corroborating source led by the same info given (I'm also granting that he may simply be expressing assurance either without knowledge or with the same bullgak reassurances PB hands out like candy (hard, old, unpalatable candy).
Which makes these a little less reliable;
Wave 2 has been worked on right along with Wave 1. wave 1 has been getting all the attention. I can't speculate yet on the next eras.
Jul 18 2014 on #150: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™
@Max - Kevin is not waiting years to get things started.. There are many things going on in the background. Too many people want to see this enterprise succeed to let it die.
Jul 18 2014 on #150: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Wave 2 status.. they are working on proofing some sprue layouts and tweaking design of joints.. I don't know about the parts counts.. but they are doing their best to make wave 2 look great. One of the more difficult aspects of this has been the waiting I realize, but PB has not been standing around and doing nothing. There are so many things happening in the background that everyone does not realize. This has been no small undertaking by PB and ND. There has been a big learning curve and PB is constantly trying to improve so that you guys get the best product that you can. In the (reasonably) quickest time possible. To those that have been getting your stuff please lets hear about it..
Nov 8 2014 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Nearly one full year ago, and the same issues come up. This is also contrasted against the comments from Ninja Division that PB has had the final models for the full product line for somewhere around a year, which raises the question of just how long has this factory been working on 'converting' those to something they can use?
There has been progress on Wave two.. Concentration has been mostly on distribution. once everything has been sent, more info will come.
Dec 2 2014 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™
@Daniel Wave 2 is in process and more information on it will be coming from PB once all the wave 1 orders are complete.
Dec 12 2014 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™
It's never been a matter of will it be complete, just a matter of when.
Jun 13 2015 on #181: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Right, which is evidence of faith, not fact. Just like Wayne's statement;
@Forar: Robotech RPG Tactics, the game, will be at Gen Con. For sale. In quantity. There's not much question about that. (I realize some folks on here are questioning it, but there's no doubt in my mind.) We hope to have it well in advance of that, but the particulars of just how well in advance are what we're still sorting out. I'm about to write up an update to post here, btw.
Jan 17 2014 on #125: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™
I do not know the financial situation of PB, now would I discuss it on a public forum if I did know. What I do know is that PB is still working on wave 2 and still making RPGs. And they will continue to make new products for years to come.
Jun 26 2015 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™
"For years to come", indeed! And that's just what they've got lined up for 2013, years more work to go!
I suppose this will come across as 'calling WRRD out', which it isn't really intended to be. As I said at the start, it's a reflection of the information we get, or don't get, or have to read between the lines, or piece together from various sources and add supposition to. Few as their voices may be these days, there remain those who declare anyone asking for info or evidence of progress to be whiny or impatient or complain how bored they are with people asking about it (this comes up regularly on Mike's page), but glancing through what has been said, in public, as reassurance by one of the people who had a hand in this and comments on conference calls with Jeff and talking to Wayne and Kevin, if he's so in the dark and relying on so much faith, how can we really take those statements as fact?
It's opinion dressed up as fact with a smattering of 'I know something you don't know'.
Which at this point seems to be 'just how well and truly fethed everything really is', if anything.
Now, I may not be some fancy big city lawyer, but I'll be goosed by a greased sow's tail if someone can explain what in the ever loving hell this means:
"There has been progress on Wave two.. Concentration has been mostly on distribution. once everything has been sent, more info will come."
Distributing WHAT? What is progress on that? Going to http://postcalc.usps.com/ with a wild ass guess about the size and weight and destinations of packages?
WRRD wasn't the only one to play the "I know something you don't know" game. Of course, of the two I can think of, one has gone silent, and the other seems to have become an apostate, even if he's still doing his best to revive something that was stillborn a year ago.
Merijeek wrote: Now, I may not be some fancy big city lawyer, but I'll be goosed by a greased sow's tail if someone can explain what in the ever loving hell this means:
"There has been progress on Wave two.. Concentration has been mostly on distribution. once everything has been sent, more info will come."
Distributing WHAT? What is progress on that? Going to http://postcalc.usps.com/ with a wild ass guess about the size and weight and destinations of packages?
My guess is that you've just listed Palladium's ongoing hard work on the progress for a month or more. If they check the shipping cost to an individual backer once a day on the site calculator, they can ride this out for years while claiming "ongoing work" with no actual progress as they believe that instantly absolves them from anything/everything according to their interpretation of the kickstarter contract. And if, god forbid, the post office changes their price, they're back to square one and have to redo all that hard work because of someone else (not their fault again?!?!? muwhaaaahaa!).
Jan 17 2014 on #125: from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™
I do not know the financial situation of PB, now would I discuss it on a public forum if I did know. What I do know is that PB is still working on wave 2 and still making RPGs. And they will continue to make new products for years to come.
Jun 26 2015 on Robotech® RPG Tactics™
"For years to come", indeed! And that's just what they've got lined up for 2013, years more work to go!
I only wish he weren't talking about wave two specifically. :( His "prediction" of years of work at Palladium's pace unfortunately is spot on whether he meant it or not.
My guess is that you've just listed Palladium's ongoing hard work on the progress for a month or more. If they check the shipping cost to an individual backer once a day on the site calculator, they can ride this out for years while claiming "ongoing work" with no actual progress as they believe that instantly absolves them from anything/everything according to their interpretation of the kickstarter contract.
There's a thought. What constitutes proof of them working in good faith on the project? We obviously can't take their word for it as they've been proven to not tell the truth. Would it boil down to retaining a lawyer to request evidence of the current status of the project? Is that all we're asking the varied AGs to do?
Merijeek wrote: Man, that one picture of Simbieda looks like something from a 1980's PSA about 'Stranger Danger'.
It's a fake, he's not sitting behind a CRT, but a LCD.
I more meant the "I have candy in my van!" picture, not the "And I'll stick this fist so deep I'll get to their wallet no matter where they hide it!" picture
Backer Attorney to State AG:
We state that PB are incapable or unwilling to comply with the terms of the contract formed between backers and the project creator of this kickstarter when the project was funded. We provide these kickstarter updates as evidence and request a subpoena of evidence for Palladium Books' use of kickstarter funds.
PB Attorney to State AG:
We disagree, we sent half of what we were supposed to. In retail terms blah blah blah.
State AG:
Subpoena granted.
At this point PB have to provide both the state AG and the backer Attorney with the requisite evidence of spending. Here's where the fun starts.
IF PB are found to not be able to complete the backer rewards, based on their expenditure, they will be found in breach of the contract formed. They will be ordered to refund backers as the AG dictates, in line with the T&C. They may need to liquidate to do so. This is what would kill PB stone dead.
Now, LLC's (Ltd in the UK) protect the directors of a business from personal liability if the decisions made by those directors are not fraudulent, illegal or (here's the kicker) deliberately reckless.
This means; if you make a gak decision, knowing it's a gak decision, you can be held personally liable for the debts of the business. Digging through company memoranda, emails etc (all of which may be subpoena'd if someone is motivated enough) can end up with the corporate veil being hacked to bits, rather than pierced.
Can it be argued that Kevin made key decisions badly, in full knowledge that those decisions would damage the project and therefore company? Was it *really* a good idea to buy in that much wave 1 stock? Who made the call on that?
Those are the sorts of questions that may raise some very uncomfortable and expensive answers. However, asking (or at least getting answers to) those questions needs a fair amount of money, and needs a lot of motivation - the sort of thing a large group of backers represented by one attorney might be able to pull off, but not so much backers individually.
455_PWR wrote: A lawsuit would work if the backers banded together (would save a lot $). Would work better if there was an attorney here in the gaming community that would help for a chunk of the change we'd get as we shut Palladian down and take all the owner's personal stuff... home, cars, etc that he financed with our funds.
That only works if the backers are more interested in killing PB than in getting their stuff.
If PB won't be providing the stuff I paid for, I see no reason that they should remain in business.
455_PWR wrote: A lawsuit would work if the backers banded together (would save a lot $). Would work better if there was an attorney here in the gaming community that would help for a chunk of the change we'd get as we shut Palladian down and take all the owner's personal stuff... home, cars, etc that he financed with our funds.
That only works if the backers are more interested in killing PB than in getting their stuff.
If PB won't be providing the stuff I paid for, I see no reason that they should remain in business.
Damn right.
I am not out for Vengeance, I just want to make sure that no-one else gets caught in this way - and if PB put themselves in the firing line as prime examples of what NOT to do when crowd-funding, then that's their choice!
KS penniless due to a bad KS, that's poetic justice right there!
Oh, and ANY retail stock paid for from KS funds which then means the company does not have the funds to complete the KS rewards. I reckon that's fraud. It doesn't matter that the intention was to generate more money, they've ended up with less money from an action they shouldn't have taken [IF they spent KS money on it.] in the first place. Their primary obligation for that money was to fulfil the backers rewards. Buying retail stock is not [should not be] a valid use of those funds. It is surely misappropriation of those funds?
Not necessarily, a certain, realistic, amount of wave 1 stock should have been bought for retail, but remaining production should have been allocated sufficient funding. I actually think there should have been just enough to get everything made.
The said, getting the judgment on what a realistic amount to buy would have been would have required a lot of research, and the models effectively being under external review well before the final production run.
That, early on, would have caught the frankly appalling kit design we have right now. Yup, they can make nice models in the end, but they kill the game by being too tricky to assemble.
Very similar results could have been hit with drastically simpler assembly. Note I do not necessarily mean less parts, so much as easier parts to deal with.
This would have meant more people playing, more people being brought in, and sufficient revenue growth to fund secondary production or revision phases.
Right now people don't play this primarily because they're frightened off by the models, have been told 2nd hand they're horrible, or because they've heard of the gak PB are pulling.
Nowhere in the campaign did it mention funding the creation of the game AND allowing them to produce a surplus for retail.
The whole focus was on individual goal levels, with each step being funded, to produce rewards FOR backers.
Palladium can cry about it all they want, but it's all there word for word with pictures.
The models aren't "the worst thing ever" but they are difficult and a pain to assemble. Their detail is ok but a bit meh. The main reason I dumped my KS stuff on ebay was because of PB's behavior. I could have suffered through the models and rules if those were the only hang ups, but I refuse to support a company that is telling everyone to smile and how great things are while force feeding us a load of manure with every communication.
I've had worse models and still used them because I had faith in the game or company, however PB's antics ran themselves out of goodwill ages ago.
The rules aren't really bad. They are actually pretty good for a first edition of a game. They are better than a game that has been around for around 30years(looking at you 40K) Yes they have some issues, but if the game actually ever got played they could have gotten better. Sadly the farce of a KS and the overly complex models killed it. I had hopes, and they have been dashed, way to go Palladium.
Joyboozer wrote: Nowhere in the campaign did it mention funding the creation of the game AND allowing them to produce a surplus for retail.
The whole focus was on individual goal levels, with each step being funded, to produce rewards FOR backers.
Palladium can cry about it all they want, but it's all there word for word with pictures.
I think it is a given that many KS's want to sell retail and make $ at the end of the day and must make extra product to do just that. The problem is not that PB bought extra stuff to sell, that was the right move. The problem was that they did not use or practice any management or oversight of the project once ND handed it over. The extra space alone in the boxes probably cost enough in shipping extra containers that they could have been much closer to actually having molds done and ready on wave 2. The problem is not that they bought extra stuff, it is that nothing was planned, organized, or watched over from day one after the KS ended. Too many poor assumptions were made that led to even poorer actions primarily due what appears to be a careless attitude on something that is apparently more important to fans than the license holders themselves.
I eagerly await 
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