I'm most curious about the court case that Asterios/Rick dug up. If Palladium is suing someone (or whatever the case is.. being sued, testifying in a criminal case.. whatever.. I'm not sure what a docket showing their name actually means), that might be relevant to Robotech. After following this massively delayed project for two and a half years, it's obvious that everything at Palladium is very closely interconnected. A delay in one project happens likely because something else has taken priority; their murmurs read like they're constantly rushing to try and contain one fire while another 2-3 start to burn out of control. If the case is directly related to Robotech and the failure to complete their contract despite 2 extra years, it obviously has an effect on the project as well. Even if it is completely unrelated (like with a crisis of treachery part II), Palladium doesn't seemingly know how to multitask and those 25 hour work days and 8 day work weeks will likely be devoted to putting out that fire instead of completing the myriad of other massively delayed projects, the biggest (but certainly not the only) being Robotech.
It would be interesting if it was like a Dust Studio/Battlefront fallout in that ND hasn't gotten paid for the renders they did "a year ago" and are now on PB's case. It'd be damn hilarious even.
Stormonu wrote: It would be interesting if it was like a Dust Studio/Battlefront fallout in that ND hasn't gotten paid for the renders they did "a year ago" and are now on PB's case. It'd be damn hilarious even.
Would be interesting, but that is not the case. ND took their pay and left trying not to look back at the mess they made and that PB through a total lack of oversight, was initially unaware of.
Stormonu wrote: It would be interesting if it was like a Dust Studio/Battlefront fallout in that ND hasn't gotten paid for the renders they did "a year ago" and are now on PB's case. It'd be damn hilarious even.
Would be interesting, but that is not the case. ND took their pay and left trying not to look back at the mess they made and that PB through a total lack of oversight, was initially unaware of.
Why exactly did they go with Ninja Division? I'm guessing price, they were a new company at the time, no real reputation to base the choice on.
My info is that ND did their job, then PB demanded changes. For example, ordering a rewrite of the rules, and requirements on the plastic molds.
ND's other games for example, have zero commonality with the Robotech project. Their models actually are made of sane numbers of pieces, and their rules are better.
It's like fan-friends keep blaming ND but you know what's the common factor in all of PBs failures? PB.
Meanwhile, ND actually manages to put out KSs roughly on time and with decent miniatures.
Stormonu wrote:It would be interesting if it was like a Dust Studio/Battlefront fallout in that ND hasn't gotten paid for the renders they did "a year ago" and are now on PB's case. It'd be damn hilarious even.
I was just thinking the other day that this project needed more Paolo. It would have been even more of a train wreck, but the diva-off between Paolo and Kevin would be one for the ages.
Sining wrote:It's like fan-friends keep blaming ND but you know what's the common factor in all of PBs failures? PB.
Meanwhile, ND actually manages to put out KSs roughly on time and with decent miniatures.
For certain definitions of "on time" and certain definitions of "decent". Relic Knights was not without problems. Though once they stopped working with other companies for publishing, their quality and consistency has improved. Either they were unlucky in their partnerships, or they have learned some tough lessons.
We have several other ND/Soda Pop campaigns that don't (as far as I'm aware) show the same "mini-model" approach to design.
We have ND's statements that they completed the figures and handed them to PB over a year ago.
Now, is it possible ND shoulder some of the blame here? Certainly. A lot of it? Maybe.
However, I think it's much more likely, based on PB's statements in The Big History Of Everything posts, that they failed to capture pertinent details in the contract (made naive assumptions or just flat out didn't do their homework getting into the venture) and eventually ND completed their contractually obligated aspects of work, whether or not it got PB to the finish line, because we're talking about businesses, not charities.
I have a friend whose sister works for a visual FX company that works on some big name movies and shows (example; she worked on Age of Ultron). One of their big clients was Game of Thrones (she worked on that too), however they eventually had to drop the contract because they simply couldn't keep up with the demands being made by the production team; they'd complete a scene and then get a pile of revision notes and have to go back over again and again and again. What I'm saying is that it's possible for revision demands to exceed what is a sound business strategy. If ND were contracted for X revisions or Y hours of work across those figures, then it's not unreasonable for them to finally say "look, we did what you paid us to do".
Without seeing the contract we have no way of knowing, but I think putting a hefty share of the blame on ND requires giving PB a level of benefit of the doubt that simply doesn't make sense to me.
So, again, is it possible that ND are demons who led the innocent PB astray? ... eh. I think it's much more likely that after months of changes (included or above and beyond the contract), ND simply wrapped up their contractual obligations and finished their end of the project. If PB was unable or unwilling to submit appropriate change orders to modify those duties, that's not ND's fault. That's a reasonable stance in business.
If PB wanted ND to do *everything*, then they should have captured that in the contract.
Also, according to The Grand History Of Everything, it was WRRD who suggested Ninja Division.
First, I want to thank Thomas Roache for his persistence and passion that opened my eyes to the possibilities. Honestly, I don’t know if Robotech® RPG Tactics™ would exist if it were not for Tom and his efforts to rally an online movement for Palladium to even consider something like this. It was also Tom who first suggested Palladium talk to Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division about working with us to make the game pieces and it was Ninja Division, Tom and Carmen Bellaire who helped convince us that doing a new game would be the way to go with this project.
And regarding the project itself;
First, not knowing anything about Kickstarters, we did not realize the real job of managing a Kickstarter begins AFTER the Kickstarter is funded. We thought that when Ninja Division said it would handle the Kickstarter from start to finish, that they would be handling everything. Again, we didn’t know what “everything” entailed.
No. Bad PB. You don't get to assume things in business. You get it all, EVERYTHING, explicitly written down. Everyone is on the same page, everyone knows who is being paid what to do what work, and what penalties may come into play if that work isn't completed to PB's satisfaction (or in a timely fashion). Hell, if it's as egregious as some people make out, PB should be taking ND to court.
People generally agree that PB needed a quality Product Manager to run this, but the ongoing "oh man, those ND donkey caves left PB high and dry" style commentary that I see now and then just baffles me. Given the number of people PB has thrown under the bus over the years, the excuses and misleading statements (if not outright lies), it just doesn't make sense to me to conclude that ND are somehow the focal point for blame.
Again again, I'm not saying they're saints, but with a project like this the buck stops with the guys in charge. And in this case, that's PB. Even if the contractor fethed up something fierce, that's on said guys in charge to manage.
n815e wrote: Are we back to calling people names if we disagree with them?
Just because PB are inept doesn't make ND any less so.
Not sure what namecalling you're seeing. Unless it was the "diva-off" thing Caulyn mentioned. I think the reputations of both people he mentioned having strong egos that kind of fit that mold aren't that out of line. Did I miss something else?
As for ND being equally as inept as PB, I'll accept it's a possibility. I just won't accept it as fact, without some serious evidence. Simply put, we don't know what happened. One side isn't talking. The other side isn't known for being trustworthy. Trying to say that ND and PB are equally responsible, or according to Mike, more responsible, for the issues with this campaign, require some form of proof before I'll accept it as fact.
The facts in evidence are...
- ND was hired to work on the project.
- ND no longer feel they are attached to this project.
And that seems to be about it. ND claim that they finished with the work about a year ago. PB haven't confirmed or denied this, to my knowledge. The argument about what was expected and/or required of both parties is mostly rumor and speculation, with apparently some "insider information" from PB (I don't doubt people were told this. I question whether the person telling them this was being completely honest). The actual contract hasn't been made public, nor have both sides confirmed anything with regards the details within.
Really, what some people seem to be going on, is current and past experience. Ninja Division while having some issues with Relic Knights, seem to be working at a pace, and with a quality that isn't seen in the RRT project. Whereas PB seem to be repeating the same mistakes, over and over again. Sure, it's not proof, but it's a reasonable line of logic based on circumstantial evidence.
I mean it's possible ND blew up their side of the project to work on their own stuff. It's also possible they did everything in their capacity to do their job and were hamstrung/sandbagged by Kevin's meddling. We simply don't have enough actual fact to know what happened, and stating either side as such, without some kind of validation, is wrong.
what it comes down to is the white knights are trying to put most if not all the blame on ND, they already have come to the realization that wave 2 is never gonna show up (at least anytime soon in the next few years).
so they have to find someone to blame and we all know how Kevin is faultless, they try to put the blame on HG, but from what i've seen of other companies putting out Robotech stuff they don't have to go thru all the hoops, they do have to be exact, I remember a conversation I had with a friend Jason and I had asked him about Lisa's hair in the Sentinels, he said he had to do it that way. but on the other hand it seems like all of PB's choices were aimed to save them money, no evil plans from ND or HG, just PB and Kevin behind this screw up.
PB only hired ND till they got the money, then Kevin in his infinite wisdom figured how could he screw that up? and with us knowing his track record we know how.
When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.
ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.
ND ran the KS. Mike's point of ND setting the goals, being responsible for the quotes, making the promises seems more true than not. If the project's budget was effectively set by ND and then handed off to PB to make the best of it, that really screwed us over.
ND and PB were effectively partners in this, it wasn't just a contractor relationship which is why we have their logo on our boxes. They may have been smart enough to keep their mouths shut and put distance between this mess that they helped cause, but that doesn't change the part they played. They really are smart to distance themselves and keep quiet, because they know that means fewer people will associate them directly with the problems of the project. They didn't mind when they thought it was going to make them look good, though.
Good for them for learning from their mistakes, that doesn't do a single thing for us.
This doesn't do anything to fix things for us, but when I see all of the blame set on PB, none attributed to HG and people letting ND off scot-free, I think that is inherently unfair. PB is the bearer of the greatest burden, but let's be fair.
Even if ND is 98% responsible for the INITIAL problems with the fulfillment of the kickstarter, Palladium has had 2 YEARS to correct those mistakes either themselves or hire someone to do so. They apparently haven't. Palladium is also completely responsible for the VOLUNTARY breaking of promises like convention exclusives and not trying to sell at retail before fulfilling backer rewards. Palladium is also completely responsible for the complete failure to complete other promises made with side projects like the conventional rules and the wave 2 standees that ND had nothing to do with. And then there is the mess that Palladium calls communication with backers. How is ND responsible for months of silence after repromising to keep backers informed? ND didn't say months ago that they were going to FINALLY give us the much delayed breakdown of each sprue that they were supposed to do from the beginning and then do nothing but post vague throwaway sentances ON ANOTHER SITE about this project instead.
TLDR: Even if you assign 98% of the initial screw up blame to ND, there have been so many screwups in the two years since that Palladium is up to their waists in blame themselves no matter what. So many of the same type of mistakes have been made since that it makes it almost impossible that they were somehow completely on the ball prior to that.
n815e wrote: When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.
ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.
That is still debatable, especially when you look at their other minis, none of them are done like the UEDF, odds are PB had the factory split up the pieces to make it cheaper to do.
ND ran the KS. Mike's point of ND setting the goals, being responsible for the quotes, making the promises seems more true than not. If the project's budget was effectively set by ND and then handed off to PB to make the best of it, that really screwed us over.
ND and PB were effectively partners in this, it wasn't just a contractor relationship which is why we have their logo on our boxes. They may have been smart enough to keep their mouths shut and put distance between this mess that they helped cause, but that doesn't change the part they played. They really are smart to distance themselves and keep quiet, because they know that means fewer people will associate them directly with the problems of the project. They didn't mind when they thought it was going to make them look good, though.
Actually ND were not partners, they even have stated on several occasions they were "Hired" to design the minis (this does not include breaking the minis into several pieces), and to design the initial ruleset, think it was the rules but PB changed them.
Good for them for learning from their mistakes, that doesn't do a single thing for us.
This doesn't do anything to fix things for us, but when I see all of the blame set on PB, none attributed to HG and people letting ND off scot-free, I think that is inherently unfair. PB is the bearer of the greatest burden, but let's be fair.
so far as evidence shows, what can you prove ND did to screw this project up, you already said some things but I also pointed out evidence that discredits what you said.
n815e wrote: When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.
ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.
Partial fact. ND designed the miniatures. That's not in dispute. The second part, I'd need more evidence to accept. There has been speculation that there were changes made to make things cheaper. That the initial production company was changed (hence the file incompatibility issue). It's possible that the miniatures initially provided by ND were horrible. It's also possible that the initial miniatures were made horrible by micromanagement from HG and PB. So there's a wide range of what "might have happened", but nothing that proves where the blame should be.
n815e wrote: ND ran the KS. Mike's point of ND setting the goals, being responsible for the quotes, making the promises seems more true than not. If the project's budget was effectively set by ND and then handed off to PB to make the best of it, that really screwed us over.
Again, first part, ND running the communication on the KS appears to be fact. The rest? Speculation. We don't know who decided the stretch goals, how the budget was worked out, what was promised (like the Super VEF, and the multi Toma/Def), and who had input. It's possible ND did all of it on their own, as you suggest. It's possible (though I admit unlikely), that PB handed them a playsheet that they had to run through. It's also possible that ND did their side, and PB rubberstamped it, either trusting, not knowing or caring what was being done. Or anywhere else on that spectrum.
n815e wrote: ND and PB were effectively partners in this, it wasn't just a contractor relationship which is why we have their logo on our boxes. They may have been smart enough to keep their mouths shut and put distance between this mess that they helped cause, but that doesn't change the part they played. They really are smart to distance themselves and keep quiet, because they know that means fewer people will associate them directly with the problems of the project. They didn't mind when they thought it was going to make them look good, though.
Not fact. That their logo is on the box doesn't make them "partners". While I can't prove the negative (that they were not partners), that there IS a distance between them, that ND do not appear to be in any way tied to the project anymore, appears to be significant enough that it looks a lot more like work for hire than a partnership. Just because they initially seemed to be working in concert, doesn't make them partners. Much as me having a good relationship with my employer doesn't make me their partner. Again, not saying they were NOT partners. Just saying that unless we see the contract and what obligations/responsibilities were, claiming either as fact is wrong.
n815e wrote: Good for them for learning from their mistakes, that doesn't do a single thing for us.
This doesn't do anything to fix things for us, but when I see all of the blame set on PB, none attributed to HG and people letting ND off scot-free, I think that is inherently unfair. PB is the bearer of the greatest burden, but let's be fair.
The HG thing is just an acceptance, I think. I don't think anyone expected HG to do anything but collect royalties. But as Warboss mentioned in response, the last year, if not longer, is solely on PB. And we just don't know enough to know who's to blame earlier. Some people have a feeling, but noone seems to have proof. And for what it's worth, for a long time, people DID lump PB and ND into the same basket. It was only when it was clear that ND had (bailed out/been forced out/quit/run away/divested themselves/concluded their part), that people started directing it solely at the people currently responsible for the issue.
If you squint enough, you can almost make out Asterios riding the wave of fury on a 3D printed surf board in the shape of the SDF-1! Unleash the full force of your litigation fury and get us at least a pyrrhic moral victory! In all seriousness, Rick, I expect nothing to come from 2 years worth of legal threats (including Rick actually filing anything that we can verify online) but maybe if you keep your promises we'll find out the truth about what happened and what is NOT happening currently (whether from you or Palladium directly).
If you squint enough, you can almost make out Asterios riding the wave of fury on a 3D printed surf board in the shape of the SDF-1! Unleash the full force of your litigation fury and get us at least a pyrrhic moral victory! In all seriousness, Rick, I expect nothing to come from 2 years worth of legal threats (including Rick actually filing anything that we can verify online) but maybe if you keep your promises we'll find out the truth about what happened and what is NOT happening currently (whether from you or Palladium directly).
n815e wrote: ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.
Edit: Merijeek's commentary that ND don't even seem to be the ones making the sprue breakdowns is stronger. The renders we saw seem fine, how the factory (and other plastic minis companies have complained about factory sprue breakdowns in the past) is cutting them apart is another story. PB have referenced working with the factory on this aspect, going as far as saying that the original renders are just being used as the basis for this work or something.
ND ran the KS. Mike's point of ND setting the goals, being responsible for the quotes, making the promises seems more true than not. If the project's budget was effectively set by ND and then handed off to PB to make the best of it, that really screwed us over.
Given that PB has complained that the molds and shipping (to the warehouse) were considerably more expensive than allocated for, this is possible. Maybe the people setting up the budget failed to allocate enough extra to cover contingencies like this. That'd be bad, that'd be unfortunate, and with 2 waves of shipping that'd be a substantial problem, but PB has pointedly not admitted to having any issues with proceeding for a quarter of a decade now. Aside form vague murmurings about trimming the piece count and bitching about costs being higher than originally anticipated, they've been quite clear about not being broke or taking the money and running, etc. If these increased costs are indeed holding them back, then we're at another "they're lying about making progress" impasse.
ND and PB were effectively partners in this, it wasn't just a contractor relationship which is why we have their logo on our boxes.
Having ones logo on a box doesn't make one a partner. Everything in the communications from PB and ND have shown a clear HG/PB -> ND flow of directives. PB regularly commented on sending ND's work to HG for approval. PB took the rules set and reworked it. Everything I've seen leans towards ND having the least power/authority/whatever in this mess.
This doesn't do anything to fix things for us, but when I see all of the blame set on PB, none attributed to HG and people letting ND off scot-free, I think that is inherently unfair. PB is the bearer of the greatest burden, but let's be fair.
Which basically makes all this splitting hairs. Whether it's a 90/10 split on blame for PB and ND, or 80/20, I think we can all agree PB are the ones that have fethed up royally here. Arguing whether ND shares 10 or 20 or 30 percent of the blame still leaves PB the ones garnering the most ire. The ones flippantly taking months and quarters of years to show nothing, who have shown almost zero progress in the last year and a half since wave 1 went from design to production.
What on earth makes pb fans think ND is a partner? Are they receiving a share of the profits? No? Are they allowed to make any of the decisions without input from PB? No? Sounds more like a employer employee relationship -_-.
what it comes down to is ND finished their part of the project a year ago, so how can you blame whats been happening this past year on ND? how can PB be working on the miniature designs when ND is out of the picture? I did not sign up for some random company designing the minis, when I signed up PB said ND would be designing them.
This assumes that ND designed them like that on their own. Given their other figures, I don't see why that would have to be the case. Given that PB and/or HG had input as to what was expected of them, it seems more likely to me that this was what they were told to do.
Actually, without a doubt, absolutely positively we know that ND didn't just do the sculpts on their own since Palladium told us. I can't give you a url specifically but somewhere (whether an official KS update or a weekly murmur) it was said that they'd get a design from ND and the palladium staff would spend lots of time scrutinizing it and sending it back for corrections to make sure it was 98% accurate to the source material. I'm not totally sure but IIRC they also said they were the middle step before passing it along next to HG for approval (and more possible changes).
edit: And now I read further down and you pretty much said the above in your own post. Oops, sorry!
Off hand, aren't Betas roughly the size of original VT's? Broader but roughly the same height at least?
Maybe go 40mm for the Alpha and Beta, and 50 for the combined mode ("Legioss" or whatever it's called)?
Maybe even 30mm for the Alpha, given its smaller size? They'd be about comparable to Zentraedi Infantry, wouldn't they? So 25 or 30mm would make sense, if I'm not forgetting something important here.
Forar wrote: Off hand, aren't Betas roughly the size of original VT's? Broader but roughly the same height at least?
Maybe go 40mm for the Alpha and Beta, and 50 for the combined mode ("Legioss" or whatever it's called)?
Maybe even 30mm for the Alpha, given its smaller size? They'd be about comparable to Zentraedi Infantry, wouldn't they? So 25 or 30mm would make sense, if I'm not forgetting something important here.
well the Alphas are on 40mm bases in the pics and the Betas are on 40mm and 50mm bases respectively.
the combined mode would need at minimum a 60mm to cover most of the unit.
this is what a Zentraedi would look like on a 25mm base:
Wow, so in that massive update Kevin spewed forth he even threw WRRD under the bus?
Classy.
Does anyone else picture him as either Terrance or Phillip from South Park?
I don't see actually that as throwing WRRD under the bus personally but rather just details/backstory filling in the Gospel as Reimagined by Kevin to the Fan Friendalites. Regardless, Palladium is the company that vetted and chose to enter into a contract with Ninja Division, not a fan boy with NO experience in the industry like Roach just dropping a name of a company who happens to focus on anime minis.
Sining wrote: What on earth makes pb fans think ND is a partner? Are they receiving a share of the profits? No? Are they allowed to make any of the decisions without input from PB? No? Sounds more like a employer employee relationship -_-.
I'm not a PB fan. It just goes to show how much there are those who cannot handle someone who disagrees with them that they have to discount others' opinions as "PB fans" or "White Knights" or "Fan Friends".
Do you know what the financial arrangement is between ND, PB and HG? You don't actually know if ND gets a share of the profits. Does PB make any decisions about the game without input from HG? According to your logic, then, PB is the employer of HG.
If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.
The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.
We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.
n815e wrote: When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.
ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.
Nope. The major quality problem wasn't down to the designs, it was down to the way they were cut for production.
So all the people that have complained about soft or missing details, that have complained about fragile parts, that have complained about lack of poseability, that's all down to the way they were cut for production. Got it.
Sining wrote: What on earth makes pb fans think ND is a partner? Are they receiving a share of the profits? No? Are they allowed to make any of the decisions without input from PB? No? Sounds more like a employer employee relationship -_-.
I'm not a PB fan. It just goes to show how much there are those who cannot handle someone who disagrees with them that they have to discount others' opinions as "PB fans" or "White Knights" or "Fan Friends".
Do you know what the financial arrangement is between ND, PB and HG? You don't actually know if ND gets a share of the profits. Does PB make any decisions about the game without input from HG? According to your logic, then, PB is the employer of HG.
If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.
The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.
We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.
n815e wrote: When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.
ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.
Nope. The major quality problem wasn't down to the designs, it was down to the way they were cut for production.
So all the people that have complained about soft or missing details, that have complained about fragile parts, that have complained about lack of poseability, that's all down to the way they were cut for production. Got it.
actually most if not 99% of them are complaining about the cuts of the product, not sure I heard any complaints about "Soft" or "Missing" details ? lack of posability is due to how the pieces were cut.
As to ND's position, do you just ignore those statements that do not agree with you? it is stated that ND was "Hired" to do certain things and this was stated by Ninja John himself.
as to their name being on the box, go look at some of those Miniature games out there, a lot of them have designer names on the boxs, it helps identify product and promote sales, it does not mean the designer is getting a piece of the action. just like RPG books for Palladium PB pays the writers, but they don't get a piece of the sales from it.
Forar wrote: No. Bad PB. You don't get to assume things in business. You get it all, EVERYTHING, explicitly written down. Everyone is on the same page, everyone knows who is being paid what to do what work, and what penalties may come into play if that work isn't completed to PB's satisfaction (or in a timely fashion). Hell, if it's as egregious as some people make out, PB should be taking ND to court.
I have worked for interesting individuals who wanted to get the "most" out of their contractors.
The typical method is to write some open ended statements and non-specific wording.
The intent is to expand their definition of what they think that person should be doing and try to bully them into doing more.
I bet PB wrote-up the contract in the same way they do for their contracted artists and writers.
I think what they were not planning-on is as they started pulling shenanigans ND figured they would do the minimum to the letter of the contract and backed away.
I am sure PB would have tried things like withholding payment (which a supplier complaint from a security company they employed can attest) until they realized they needed ND more than they needed them. The link here is a rather interesting look at their behavior as a company: http://rosswatson.blogspot.ca/2012/05/publisher-profile-palladium-books-part.html.
It could be very likely ND could have done more but I bet when they started witnessing "scope creep" they figured out their exit strategy quickly.
All conjecture of course since ND is being rather quiet about everything even with Kevin's various allegations.
So, I guess I play ST: Armada for now until I get inspired enough to squeak the most variety out of the models I do have.
ND is staying quiet, because they're smart enough not to get dragged back into the morass, having already fulfilled their obligations.
If PB had a legal leg to stand on, to compel ND to do more work, you can bet Kevin would be beating the drum of how the delays are due to ND not finishing their work.
The single biggest issue, and complaint, with these miniature models is that they were chopped into a ridiculous number of pieces.
Agree or disagree?
The "soft or missing details" come from the designs, or from the production and material chosen.
Production or design?
The "fragile parts" come from the designs (apart from necessity based on source, naturally) or the production and material chosen?
Production or design?
The lack of poseability - that might be from the design. Or it could be a 3D model that was posed in a particular way and then shipped to China for chopping up. I have a hard time believing that anyone, ND or PB, would be so fething incompetent as to create models, which would be used in forces dozens strong, in only a couple different poses.
Because PB has demonstrated that they couldn't manage to orchestrate an orgy in Caligula's Rome, I'm going to guess that, somehow, it was PB's fault.
Keep in mind, as well, that both ND and HG have maintained their professional stature here as well. I have yet to see anything from either one of them describing how one of the other partners was a gigantic disappointment, and how it was totally not their fault, it was someone else's. Only one company in this entire joke has done that.
However, it doesn't matter whether or not it was PB's fault, ND's fault, or HG's fault. Because PB is the one ultimately responsible. It was their project. They are the ones to whom the money was given.
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JohnHwangDD wrote: ND is staying quiet, because they're smart enough not to get dragged back into the morass, having already fulfilled their obligations.
If PB had a legal leg to stand on, to compel ND to do more work, you can bet Kevin would be beating the drum of how the delays are due to ND not finishing their work.
Yes, but you don't have a signed affidavit from Kevin Simbieda admitting to it...well, we just can't make that assumption. Even though every thing Simbieda has ever said and done makes that crystal fething clear.
hmm, why does this not sound like Kevin, would love to see the actual police reports and such and why no insurance?
EMBEZZLEMENT CASE AND FINANCIAL DIFFICULTIES
On April 19, 2006, Kevin Siembieda issued a statement that revealed Palladium Books' critical financial difficulties due to alleged embezzlement and theft resulting in losses from $850,000 to $1.3 million, coupled with a series of delays in negotiating license deals for their properties in other media (the Nokia N-Gage game, the Jerry Bruckheimer movie, a massively multiplayer online game license, and other potential deals).[2] They raised money to continue operations by selling a signed and numbered – but not, strictly speaking, "limited edition" – art print by Kevin Siembieda, as well as by urging fans to buy directly from their online store if their financial situations would allow for it.
An April 26, 2006 article in the Kingsport Times-News revealed that Steve Sheiring, Palladium's former sales manager, had been sentenced in a plea bargain to a misdemeanor conviction, one year of probation, and ordered to pay $47,080 in restitution to Palladium Books in connection with these thefts. It also provided more information about the thefts, which took place from 2002 to 2004 and were only discovered when Palladium took inventory.[4]
Responding to the controversy engendered by such a low settlement amount in relation to the large loss figure claimed in his earlier press release, Kevin Siembieda posted an open letter to the Palladium forum explaining the matter. Siembieda stated that he had not wanted to make public Sheiring's identity out of the fear that overzealous fans might get into trouble by committing acts of reprisal. He explained that the heaviest punishment Sheiring had been likely to receive even without the plea bargain was probation. Siembieda had a choice between getting any amount of settlement money at all to pay critical bills, or spending more time and money to attempt to get his "pound of flesh" from a man who was reportedly broke anyway. Given the urgency of Palladium's situation, Siembieda did not feel he had any real choice but to take what little he could get.[5]
During the week of May 7, 2007, Palladium announced that revenue from increased sales of books, admissions to its first annual Open House, and purchases of the special art print had covered most of the short-term damages it had incurred. This period of financial instability became referred to by Siembieda as the "Crisis of Treachery" in keeping with his stance that the root cause of the difficulties was the embezzlement perpetrated by Sheiring.
The reason for the lack of insurance is because no adjustor would possibly assess the value so high, and PB couldn't possibly afford the premiums of $1M worth of art.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The reason for the lack of insurance is because no adjustor would possibly assess the value so high, and PB couldn't possibly afford the premiums of $1M worth of art.
yeah but thing is I think PB or more specifically Kevin gave an over inflated value to his gak, cause this is the guy who sells a picture with him and his staff for $40 and its signed by them, seriously wonder if they even sell any of those?
You just can't appreciate fine art and effort of a master wordsmith. I see how little you respect the works of fiction published long ago in the Update tab of the Robotech Kickstarter!
warboss wrote: You just can't appreciate fine art and effort of a master wordsmith. I see how little you respect the works of fiction published long ago in the Update tab of the Robotech Kickstarter!
I know the KSU's tend to be fictional in content, but I really don't see them as fine art.
Unless this has all been some sort of long performance art piece. I know Forar jokingly mentioned that a year or two ago. That the purpose of the Kickstarter was to see how many people and how much money he could get, and for how long he could draw it out without actually doing anything of substance.
If that's the case, yeah, it's art. And a damn fine example.
Sining wrote: What on earth makes pb fans think ND is a partner? Are they receiving a share of the profits? No? Are they allowed to make any of the decisions without input from PB? No? Sounds more like a employer employee relationship -_-.
I'm not a PB fan. It just goes to show how much there are those who cannot handle someone who disagrees with them that they have to discount others' opinions as "PB fans" or "White Knights" or "Fan Friends".
Do you know what the financial arrangement is between ND, PB and HG? You don't actually know if ND gets a share of the profits. Does PB make any decisions about the game without input from HG? According to your logic, then, PB is the employer of HG.
Do you?
PB is definitely not the partner of HG and yet HG is on the box.
You might claim you're not a PB fan but you've pretty much defended them until recently, even with this whole trying to shift blame to ND thing.
If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.
The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.
If it wasn't, how else would they sucker all those people into backing it thinking it's a ND project /s
As it is, you have no idea what the agreement was between them or if ND having their logo on the box is simply part of the initial contract. You're just inferring a LOT from that one thing. By that logic, if CMON puts Eric Langs name onto their boxes, he must be a partner right? Or when I read a visual novel and it has the artist name on it along with the writers, they must be partners right?
Or do you just not understand what a partnership is?
We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.
People judge based on performance. Kevin and fan-friends blame ND for this whole thing but so far, ND seems to doing pretty well since they stopped RRT. However, Kevin is still up to his same old tricks. It's exactly like how it was between WGF and Defiance back when they split, with most people blaming the chinese manufacturer for taking over WGF. Except WGF went on to do good stuff while Defiance still couldn't get their act together. It's pretty obvious which party is the screw-up in that case
n815e wrote: When we wade past Kevin's bull and get to the heart of it, it certainly seems reasonable that some of the points made are true.
ND designed the miniatures. All the complaints about them (some I agree with, some I don't) are down to their designs.
Nope. The major quality problem wasn't down to the designs, it was down to the way they were cut for production.
So all the people that have complained about soft or missing details, that have complained about fragile parts, that have complained about lack of poseability, that's all down to the way they were cut for production. Got it.
You do remember that the factory had to redo the 3D files right? Even the great Kevin said so.
As I said before, we can nitpick over whether PB is 90% to blame or 80% to blame, but the end result is still that they are the majority to blame, and they are the ones in a position to progress. They are the ones allegedly setting up conference calls. They are the ones allegedly sorting things out with the factory. They are the ones with the most to gain and the most to lose (they have the inventory, they are the ones trying to sell it).
They are the ones who will either push on to wave 2, or faff about until things collapse. They are the ones who are on a clock, because minis gamers are not going to be dropping giant loads of money on a game line that takes 2 years to get their second wave to market. At this rate, 3D printing will become viable at homes around the world before Kev and Co manage to get their gak together (and yes I'm aware that's probably years or more away, the point stands).
Forar wrote: They are the ones who will either push on to wave 2, or faff about until things collapse. They are the ones who are on a clock, because minis gamers are not going to be dropping giant loads of money on a game line that takes 2 years to get their second wave to market.
The other thing to consider is that even if they do conclude Wave 2, with the huge delay in release, are they really going to hold out on some items, to stagger the releases? It seems unlikely, but if they don't, they're looking at the same problem, moving forward.
I mean, I know I'm giving them best circumstance, but bear with me, and accept the hypothetical that the re-release is successful, and there is a market in the Malifaux or Infinity range of success. They get Wave 2 up and running and ready according to their current timeline. Backers get their product at or around end of June, 2016. What's PB's blueprint for success moving forward?
Do they release everything in Wave 2 to the public immediately after that? At which point, they've got to consider how long it'll be before they release anything new after that. There doesn't appear to be much that wasn't covered in the campaign other than the Cat's Eye. So that means moving on to another generation. Which, given PB's track record, isn't going to come quickly, so you're looking at several years before another significant expansion comes out. Which means a problem with pacing and stagnation. There's also the issue that PB remain limited by the IP. Once all three generations are out, what's really left for them to do? Sure, other IP's are limited by the universe (Star Wars, Star Trek), but they've usually got a much more substantial pool from which to pull. Or, they can just make crap up. Whereas the Robotech universe seems to be significantly confined, and with nothing new from Harmony Gold, what's there to add? Sure, the movie (if it eventuates, I'm still skeptical), might add something. Or, in Hollywood fashion, it might make itself incompatible with what's before. I also have significant doubts PB would retain licensing or if they do, it'll only be for the obsolete material, if the Robotech movie goes ahead. Too much money in merchandising on something like that for it to remain where it is.
On the other hand, if they hold stuff back, you run into potential issues of another sort. Tournament/Organized Play. Simply put, do you allow, or disallow backer supplied product, that hasn't been released at retail yet? For home play, it's not an issue, that's up to the participants. But for organized play, is John allowed to field his MACII Monster, even though it's not due for retail release for another year? If you don't, you are going to annoy backers who want to play with the toys they paid for three years earlier. If you do, you're going to annoy retail purchasers, who feel they're being forced into Ebay (assuming there is sufficient supply, remember, the hypothetical is that there is a decent market moving forward), to not be at a competitive disadvantage. Because even if things are perfectly balanced (not that I expect them to be, when some of the current options aren't close, looking at you Zentradi Heavy Artillery vs Phalanx), there's an intrinsic advantage to just plain unit diversity. If you know your opponent only has access to 4 different unit types, it's easier to devise how to beat them, than if they have access to 12 different types.
So what's PB's out? Assuming they're able to get Wave 2 processed in time, how do they make this a success long term? Because if it's just a big release in July, and nothing planned moving forward, it's just going to collapse under stagnation again. And if that's the case, what's the point?
Even if by some miracle wave two comes out this is it for rrt. This has been such an ordeal for PB that this project has probably scared Kevin into never making another minis game ever.
Automatically Appended Next Post: He's to old to adapt to an ever changing market and it doesn't help that he is biased to rpg books because it's not as hard to produce as a minis game.
Doesn't matter, ND set the stage and did a gakky job. PB's lack of oversight let it happen. Then their continuing lack of oversight made things worse. This was treated like a revenue source and never given much import. PB tends to just want the glory and not do any of the work. This has nothing to do with my stuff but all with how they have not done jack in the last several months because they are, by their own admission, concentrating on everything but RRT. That is also the source of my continuing frustration, the way RRT is treated like a red-headed step child.
Morgan Vening wrote: The other thing to consider is that even if they do conclude Wave 2, with the huge delay in release, are they really going to hold out on some items, to stagger the releases? It seems unlikely, but if they don't, they're looking at the same problem, moving forward.
My guess is that they'll just dump everything all at once onto the market. Remember, they always planned to split up stuff into two retail waves to stagger releases somewhat but it wasn't supposed to be the case for backers who were supposed to get stuff many months early (lol... remember that "promise"?!?! ha!) If the current floating rumor/gossip is true and they are hurting for cash and they do despite that manage to get out wave 2 sometime in 2016, I really doubt they'll hold back. If true, they'll need all the cash they can get as soon as they can get it.
I mean, I know I'm giving them best circumstance, but bear with me, and accept the hypothetical that the re-release is successful, and there is a market in the Malifaux or Infinity range of success. They get Wave 2 up and running and ready according to their current timeline. Backers get their product at or around end of June, 2016. What's PB's blueprint for success moving forward?
Do they release everything in Wave 2 to the public immediately after that? At which point, they've got to consider how long it'll be before they release anything new after that. There doesn't appear to be much that wasn't covered in the campaign other than the Cat's Eye. So that means moving on to another generation. Which, given PB's track record, isn't going to come quickly, so you're looking at several years before another significant expansion comes out.
They could effectively turn things like conventional vehicles and the cat's eye and advanced rules into a wave 2.5... but I suspect since those are the low hanging fruit we'll get them (other than the cat's eye) next year as the new products on hand for the "relaunch" of RRPGT instead of wave 2 that will be inexplicably delayed yet again to Xmas 2016. I don't obviously know if their current license will cover movie designs (I doubt it) but if it does then I could see them trying to capitalize that at the expense of the other eras. In the more likely case that it doesn't (or the movie simply is still on the drawing board) then I see them going to other eras possibly even if they haven't completed wave 2. At that point, wave 2 will be an massive outgoing cost and they'll instead prefer to look to the future (and more importantly additional condition free easy money!) with other eras. I predict they'll be hesitant to use KS crowdfunding so maybe they'll try doing on their own on their website like with the RPGs; if they do that, I fully expect it to be a relative failure compared to macross for several reasons. The (funding) well is poisoned at that point over three years of incompetence, other eras have always been less popular than macross, and likely the conditions they'll put into any very one sided contract will discourage some of those who actually read it. When that inevitably doesn't reach a level that they want/need, I could see them "relaunching" the crowdfunding on kickstarter reluctantly and not doing much better. At that point they'll blame everyone but themselves except in some token flattering way ("we made a mistake... in trusting others so much!" for example).
So what's PB's out?
Clearly they don't need one. Didn't you read their BBB responses? We've already gotten more than we deserve despite only getting less than half the sculpts promised! Their out in case that doesn't work is just to delay, delay, delay.
All of the above is predicated on the idea that they will actually succeed in releasing wave 2 in 2016... which frankly is one of the least possible outcomes I see given the complete waste of a year that 2015 has apparently turned into with nothing new to show for all those months since February.
PB probably thinks mini games work like their RPG products, which only need new products every few years or so. So several years in between releases is perfectly acceptable to them
Asterios wrote: hmm, why does this not sound like Kevin, would love to see the actual police reports and such and why no insurance?
EMBEZZLEMENT CASE AND FINANCIAL DIFFICULTIES
''Siembieda stated that he had not wanted to make public Sheiring's identity out of the fear that overzealous fans might get into trouble by committing acts of reprisal.''
....mine is an EVIL laugh!
But, you know, ''overzealous fans'' seeking retribution for the self-titled''Crisis of Treachery''®™, involving non-digital artwork of an imaginary, hyper-inflated value?
Do you?
PB is definitely not the partner of HG and yet HG is on the box.
You might claim you're not a PB fan but you've pretty much defended them until recently, even with this whole trying to shift blame to ND thing.
You made a definite claim on their financial arrangement, not me. So why are you asking me if I know what it is. You stated it, back it up.
It doesn't matter if you think I'm a PB fan or not, really. When you dismiss people who have different opinions with "PB fan" or "White Knight", etc. It's actually meaningless and shows that you can't accept other people disagreeing with you on matters of opinion. Resorting to name calling, labeling and such is more of a reflection on you than me.
If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.
The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.
If it wasn't, how else would they sucker all those people into backing it thinking it's a ND project /s
As it is, you have no idea what the agreement was between them or if ND having their logo on the box is simply part of the initial contract. You're just inferring a LOT from that one thing. By that logic, if CMON puts Eric Langs name onto their boxes, he must be a partner right? Or when I read a visual novel and it has the artist name on it along with the writers, they must be partners right?
Or do you just not understand what a partnership is?
Attributing authorship is not the same as putting another company's logo on your products when they are your contractor. There is no doubt that the relationship between PB and ND was much better before the project started to fall apart and ND decided to bail.
You made specific claims about their financial relationship without knowing any of the details, but want to hold me to a different standard? Why is that?
I wrote "ND and PB were effectively partners in this", the key word being "effectively". I made no claims about actual legal partnerships.
You, on the other hand, made a claim about their financial arrangement with no actual knowledge.
We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.
People judge based on performance. Kevin and fan-friends blame ND for this whole thing but so far, ND seems to doing pretty well since they stopped RRT. However, Kevin is still up to his same old tricks. It's exactly like how it was between WGF and Defiance back when they split, with most people blaming the chinese manufacturer for taking over WGF. Except WGF went on to do good stuff while Defiance still couldn't get their act together. It's pretty obvious which party is the screw-up in that case
Are we seriously meant to believe that ND didn't screw up in the past because they are doing better today?
You do remember that the factory had to redo the 3D files right? Even the great Kevin said so.
Yes. Does that mean that ND, who had no experience whatsoever in designing models in this scale, did a perfect job and it is all down the Chinese manufacturer, now? Great, let's blame "the Chinese". Weren't ND supposed to be experts regarding plastic miniatures manufacture? Was it ND that chose Chinese production? Was it ND that then subsequently used incompatible software? ND is completely blameless for the problems and were professional in all manners, yet didn't bother to research some basic facts such as software compatibility? Got it.
I guess asking people to be reasonable here was asking too much. There seem to be a lot of people emotionally invested in Palladium Books and Kevin S.
Are we seriously meant to believe that ND didn't screw up in the past because they are doing better today?
You do remember that the factory had to redo the 3D files right? Even the great Kevin said so.
Yes. Does that mean that ND, who had no experience whatsoever in designing models in this scale, did a perfect job and it is all down the Chinese manufacturer, now? Great, let's blame "the Chinese". Weren't ND supposed to be experts regarding plastic miniatures manufacture? Was it ND that chose Chinese production? Was it ND that then subsequently used incompatible software? ND is completely blameless for the problems and were professional in all manners, yet didn't bother to research some basic facts such as software compatibility? Got it.
I guess asking people to be reasonable here was asking too much. There seem to be a lot of people emotionally invested in Palladium Books and Kevin S.
ND MAY have screwed up in the past, but the very fact that they ARE doing better today show that they are doing better than PB - screwing up today, just like we did in your father's day!
And as to ND, I don't believe they did a PERFECT job, but they certainly aren't the worst company in the frame.
1/. Given both recent and ancient history, it's more likely that PB are the cause [directly OR indirectly] of the MAJORITY of the problems being seen up to now. Especially as ND walked away (possibly breathing a sigh of relief) a year or more ago now. [although it certainly seems like PB have followed suit.
2/. Do you KNOW that ND used incompatible software? Or could it just possibly be that ND were under the impression that a particular manufacturer was to be used and used software they knew to be compatible with that manufacturer, then PB used the old "Bait and Switch" routine to a cheaper manufacturer assuming that the files would still be good?
When all is said and done, I'm not trying to throw PB under the bus, but I do know that ND CAN'T be blamed for PB's lack of communication in the last few weeks, or the last few months. So I am going with my gut feeling and what little information I do have on PBs's general behaviour. Neither of which mitigate in PB's favour, unfortunately.
I think it's a detestable tactic, but people do it because people are people. Some do it more than others. Labeling someone a hater is the same as labeling someone a Democrat or Republican, it is a way to mentally dismiss their opinions as unimportant and colored and make them appear as close minded. Overall the people that are the first to take this tactic to heart are the most ignorant and close minded of all. Like I said, it's human nature to try to belittle opinions that differ from your own.
Do you?
PB is definitely not the partner of HG and yet HG is on the box.
You might claim you're not a PB fan but you've pretty much defended them until recently, even with this whole trying to shift blame to ND thing.
You made a definite claim on their financial arrangement, not me. So why are you asking me if I know what it is. You stated it, back it up.
It doesn't matter if you think I'm a PB fan or not, really. When you dismiss people who have different opinions with "PB fan" or "White Knight", etc. It's actually meaningless and shows that you can't accept other people disagreeing with you on matters of opinion. Resorting to name calling, labeling and such is more of a reflection on you than me.
If there was simply a contractor-employer relationship, why is ND's logo on the boxes alongside PB's and HG's. I don't have my personal logo alongside my employer's.
The plastic manufacturer's logo isn't on the boxes, either. Neither is PB's printer's. Or the surface shipping company's. Or USPS'...
It's rather unusual for a contractor to have their logo featured on a product.
If it wasn't, how else would they sucker all those people into backing it thinking it's a ND project /s
As it is, you have no idea what the agreement was between them or if ND having their logo on the box is simply part of the initial contract. You're just inferring a LOT from that one thing. By that logic, if CMON puts Eric Langs name onto their boxes, he must be a partner right? Or when I read a visual novel and it has the artist name on it along with the writers, they must be partners right?
Or do you just not understand what a partnership is?
Attributing authorship is not the same as putting another company's logo on your products when they are your contractor. There is no doubt that the relationship between PB and ND was much better before the project started to fall apart and ND decided to bail.
You made specific claims about their financial relationship without knowing any of the details, but want to hold me to a different standard? Why is that?
I wrote "ND and PB were effectively partners in this", the key word being "effectively". I made no claims about actual legal partnerships.
You, on the other hand, made a claim about their financial arrangement with no actual knowledge.
We all have differences of opinions and in the absence of solid information we will never completely know.
Yet there are those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to excuse ND as though they had no part in this.
People judge based on performance. Kevin and fan-friends blame ND for this whole thing but so far, ND seems to doing pretty well since they stopped RRT. However, Kevin is still up to his same old tricks. It's exactly like how it was between WGF and Defiance back when they split, with most people blaming the chinese manufacturer for taking over WGF. Except WGF went on to do good stuff while Defiance still couldn't get their act together. It's pretty obvious which party is the screw-up in that case
Are we seriously meant to believe that ND didn't screw up in the past because they are doing better today?
You do remember that the factory had to redo the 3D files right? Even the great Kevin said so.
Yes. Does that mean that ND, who had no experience whatsoever in designing models in this scale, did a perfect job and it is all down the Chinese manufacturer, now? Great, let's blame "the Chinese". Weren't ND supposed to be experts regarding plastic miniatures manufacture? Was it ND that chose Chinese production? Was it ND that then subsequently used incompatible software? ND is completely blameless for the problems and were professional in all manners, yet didn't bother to research some basic facts such as software compatibility? Got it.
I guess asking people to be reasonable here was asking too much. There seem to be a lot of people emotionally invested in Palladium Books and Kevin S.
and yet when the evidence is presented you ignore it, that sounds like a fan friend to me, you claim PB and ND are effectively a partnership, how is that? from what i've seen ND got crapped on and then some. and even ND has stated they were "Hired to design the minis and write up the initial rules" now what part of that do you not understand? what part of that sounds like ND and PB are partners? you like to keep glossing over that statement made by Ninja John and even stated by PB. that sounds like a fan friend of PB trying to shift blame elsewhere when even PB says it is not so.
as to software compatibility that always naggled me some, both parties claimed there was some, but neither party blamed the other, which is unusual especially with PB who likes to blame everyone. especially since there was no issue about the Zentraedi you know the Battlepod sprues we saw before the file incompatibility. so how can the same company get one groups files right and yet the other groups files wrong? ofrget the fact both groups were designed differently or show obvious signs of being done by 2 separate companies.
choosing Chinese Production is smart not stupid, trying to get the items made in the US is not smart since it would have cost like 4-5 times as much (thats including overseas shipping) and thats even if they could find one who did it.
Also people are not saying ND didn't screw up, only that ND has learned from their mistakes unlike PB who has a "0" learning curve since they learn nothing haven't you noticed they still live in the 80's ?
and then the final nail in the coffin for PB is that ND has been away from the project for over a year, they have not been involved with it, and yet PB still has done nothing and claim they are still working on the mini designs, well I ask who is working on them? this is considered a major shift from the details given prior to joining this project, in fact its an issue that can be considered a contract breaker leaving PB at fault and at the point of having to give refunds to those who choose them.
CSI still has stuff around 1/3 off. If it's anything like last year, I'd wait at least a couple of days to see if they drop to 1/2 or less. Getting $200 worth of stuff for $100 obviously being superior to getting $150 worth of stuff for $100 (assuming one lives in the US and aims for the free shipping).
Edit: that said, they're down to 13 Artillery Pod packs and 3 Spartan/Phalanx packs, so waiting might not be the best plan if either of those are a high priority.
PB and Kevin are a hard group to figure out for motivations.
They like glory/acclaim, money very much so.
They dislike work, accountability and spending money on anything but themselves.
I think their plan "moving forward" is thus:
- Try to pretty much make everyone forget about wave 2 and just continue with vague statements of activity if any grumblings are heard.
- They will get companies like GHQ or other inexpensive "local" alternatives to create more Robotech product one model release at a time.
- They have a "core" set and can flog new stuff all the time, they could get all comfortable on us and publish scenario and campaign guides with publishing and layouts and all those things they love!
- They will continue to hope fan/friends will step forward to do most of the legwork for them and flog new brilliant product that Kevin will claim as his own since what was presented was a lump of coal until he presented the pressure to create that diamond.
The maddening part is that we may never know what finally made them back away from wave 2.
I honestly think it was comparing the cost of production and sales of wave 1 and the GHQ model cost and Kevin figured China was a rip-off and did not want to see the pile of cash disappear.
Problem is, he cannot really touch it without good records IF he gets nailed with a lawsuit.
He may actually think he is unassailable and with a little denial help himself to the money anyway (narcissists are very good at that).
I think he would be counting on pulling a "poor me" and claiming that the next nearby expendable minion had "led him astray" and he was "too trusting".
Well, I suppose I could look at what deals are out there, a little bit of scratch building may be in order.
This is a mildly off-topic point, but the overall themes made by John Bain in regards to GamerGate apply here as well; reducing the camps to "Pro-PB" and "Con-PB" is more-than-slightly intellectually dishonest and only results in people yelling at each other endlessly because the person being argued with doesn't actually exist. As the name of his post says, this game supports more than two players, and there's plenty of room for varying opinions across the spectrum.
I suspect that ND did not have full experience with HIPS tooling, and thus it would be reasonable to assume (and it is an assumption) their designs would have been more in line with the PVC plastic they're used to working with. I do not recall ND doing any other HIPS projects, but that could simply be ignorance on my part. However, from watching other projects the demands of HIPS are quite hefty, especially if you do not go through the added expense of newer technologies, and if you don't have a factory with engineers willing to work with you then things can go very sideways very fast.
As Forar continues to repeat though, while that's certainly an issue that you could likely attribute to ND, it's far from the worst issue with the overall project thus far. A significant one when discussing a miniatures game? Certainly, but once the issue becomes a known quantity then you adjust for that and carry on; numerous projects have hit those same issues and, in fairness, have had similar delays. What those campaigns by and large have not done is told the backers that things were fine and everything was progressing and then ask them to believe that on faith; for the good campaigns if they said progress was being made, then they backed it up.
Krinsath wrote: What those campaigns by and large have not done is told the backers that things were fine and everything was progressing and then ask them to believe that on faith; for the good campaigns if they said progress was being made, then they backed it up.
This is the crux of the matter: we began to realize that if the supplier continues to say progress is being made: when can you legally claim they ARE NOT getting it done? When can you call them on their bull-gak and say that after a few years enough is enough: give me my money or give me the stuff promised.
This is not a story of being unable to make the product, it is being unwilling to do it the way they agreed and are now stalling for some opportunity or idea to present itself.
Palladium clearly feels that there is no reasonable cutoff point according to their BBB statements. As long as they're "working" on the project with their one phone call a week, they seem to be under the impression that they can drag this into the 2020's and still meet both the spirit and letter of the contract 5,000+ individual contracts they agreed to. I obviously disagree and I personally think that point of time has passed after 2+ years of delays and that they should be offering both refunds as well as alternative product OF THE BACKER'S CHOOSING OF EQUAL VALUE AT THE ORIGINAL KS PRICES where applicable from their existing stock. For me personally, neither really would work. I don't want a refund of the unfulfilled value portion of my pledge and they no longer have anything I'd want (I would have accepted two robotech foam model bags instead of wave two but IIRC they said they sold out a few months ago).
A friend sent me this link today to a blog post (so salt as needed). I don't know if it was posted a while back (it's from June) here but it's an interesting read. From the title of the post to the content of the post, it seems like Palladium and Harmony Gold are two peas in a pod and a perfect fit.
Hi Mike, so how did the whole " treat Palladium with kid gloves" thing work out for you? And back at the beginning when Palladium pulled the bait n switch and we were told we should have known Palladium was in control?
And now it's all on Ninja Division?
For the record, I don't like Ninja Division, John comes off as a smug gak, and I can absolutely believe they would leave Palladium holding the bag.
But at no point does anything excuse Palladium from being completely useless, as I believe you yourself discovered in your dealings with Wayne?
ND screwing up should have been an immediate red flag that they needed to hire a project manager with experience in miniature manufacture and design. Two years later, have they done this?
Joyboozer wrote: Hi Mike, so how did the whole " treat Palladium with kid gloves" thing work out for you? And back at the beginning when Palladium pulled the bait n switch and we were told we should have known Palladium was in control?
And now it's all on Ninja Division?
For the record, I don't like Ninja Division, John comes off as a smug gak, and I can absolutely believe they would leave Palladium holding the bag.
But at no point does anything excuse Palladium from being completely useless, as I believe you yourself discovered in your dealings with Wayne?
ND screwing up should have been an immediate red flag that they needed to hire a project manager with experience in miniature manufacture and design. Two years later, have they done this?
You must be really confused. I never said PB was blameless. I have always said that they should have had a Project Manager and provided some oversight. This whole mess is because they did not provide oversight over ND. ND screwed up. PB should have been watching and made some bad moves and assumptions and them through their own actions have made it worse. I'd like you to point out specifically where I have said otherwise. Now what dealings I had with them were primarily with Jeff and they were for the most part good. I've had poor relations with Wayne every time. He was the main reason I decided screw it. If Jeff was still there, who knows? As to the lawsuit that people keep saying that Rick's laywer supposedly found. I would say that it is likely against Jeff, more likely than against ND because while ND screwed up, they did do the minimum required and PB's oversight or lack of likely left them with little that could be used to build any case against ND.
Joyboozer wrote: Hi Mike, so how did the whole " treat Palladium with kid gloves" thing work out for you? And back at the beginning when Palladium pulled the bait n switch and we were told we should have known Palladium was in control?
And now it's all on Ninja Division?
For the record, I don't like Ninja Division, John comes off as a smug gak, and I can absolutely believe they would leave Palladium holding the bag.
But at no point does anything excuse Palladium from being completely useless, as I believe you yourself discovered in your dealings with Wayne?
ND screwing up should have been an immediate red flag that they needed to hire a project manager with experience in miniature manufacture and design. Two years later, have they done this?
You must be really confused. I never said PB was blameless. I have always said that they should have had a Project Manager and provided some oversight. This whole mess is because they did not provide oversight over ND. ND screwed up. PB should have been watching and made some bad moves and assumptions and them through their own actions have made it worse. I'd like you to point out specifically where I have said otherwise. Now what dealings I had with them were primarily with Jeff and they were for the most part good. I've had poor relations with Wayne every time. He was the main reason I decided screw it. If Jeff was still there, who knows? As to the lawsuit that people keep saying that Rick's laywer supposedly found. I would say that it is likely against Jeff, more likely than against ND because while ND screwed up, they did do the minimum required and PB's oversight or lack of likely left them with little that could be used to build any case against ND.
If Jeff was still there do you think things would have been done better? There seemed to be an implication at the time he was somehow to blame.
You must be really confused. I never said PB was blameless. I have always said that they should have had a Project Manager and provided some oversight. This whole mess is because they did not provide oversight over ND. ND screwed up. PB should have been watching and made some bad moves and assumptions and them through their own actions have made it worse.
I don't know if ND screwed up. It's possible. It's also possible that PB changed the specs and files at a later date without ND's input. ND not having experience with HIPS could very well be a factor. I'll be honest and say that I really don't know anything about the internal doings of PB/ND/RRT. Only one party is talking and I don't trust them any longer.
Actually, it doesn't really matter who did or didn't screw up at this point. That's like screaming fire and calling for buckets after the barn has burned down and the embers have cooled. The game is dead and backers are extremely unlikely to get Wave 2 models.
On a tangential topic, there is a really neat video of plastic injection molding:
Do you?
PB is definitely not the partner of HG and yet HG is on the box.
You might claim you're not a PB fan but you've pretty much defended them until recently, even with this whole trying to shift blame to ND thing.
You made a definite claim on their financial arrangement, not me. So why are you asking me if I know what it is. You stated it, back it up.
It doesn't matter if you think I'm a PB fan or not, really. When you dismiss people who have different opinions with "PB fan" or "White Knight", etc. It's actually meaningless and shows that you can't accept other people disagreeing with you on matters of opinion. Resorting to name calling, labeling and such is more of a reflection on you than me.
So PB fan is now name-calling? Oversensitive aren't you?
I'm curious why you assume the DEFAULT state for ND and PB is that they're sharing the profits. Most people would assume the opposite and somehow you think I'm the one who should back it up? I mean, you're claiming they're partners, profit-sharing based on the fact that ND has their logo on the box and instead of thinking maybe you're over-inferring, it's rather double-down and claim the burden of proof doesn't lie with you? That's just hilarious
As it is, if ND and PB were profit-sharing, you'd think ND would be more involved in the process and even PROMOTE RRT at their booths because they would get a share of the profits anyway. Logically speaking, the fact that ND is no longer even talking about RRT indicates they have no such relationship in place. How bout you think about that first before claiming they're profit-sharing or partners or whatnot?
Are we seriously meant to believe that ND didn't screw up in the past because they are doing better today?
ND may have screwed up but the majority of people proclaiming that are PB and certain PB fans, which makes thing suspect given PBs reputation for throwing people under the bus and their own incompetence. Sadly, PB poisoned their own well such that whatever they say about other people; even if it's true, can't really be taken at all at face value.
If a boss hires an employee, complains continuously about the employee and how screwed up they are, but later on, the employee leaves the business and goes on to work successfully at several other businesses while the original boss keeps screwing up, most people are going to assume the first boss was the screw-up.
Yes. Does that mean that ND, who had no experience whatsoever in designing models in this scale, did a perfect job and it is all down the Chinese manufacturer, now? Great, let's blame "the Chinese". Weren't ND supposed to be experts regarding plastic miniatures manufacture? Was it ND that chose Chinese production? Was it ND that then subsequently used incompatible software? ND is completely blameless for the problems and were professional in all manners, yet didn't bother to research some basic facts such as software compatibility? Got it.
I guess asking people to be reasonable here was asking too much. There seem to be a lot of people emotionally invested in Palladium Books and Kevin S.
Says the person who seems to be very emotionally invested in PB and Kevin.
At that point, we're not even sure if ND and PB were still together. The renders during the KS seemed fine and the greatest issue with models I've had is the sheer number of parts, which is down to the manufacturer and whatever idiot gave the final approval.
I suspect that ND did not have full experience with HIPS tooling, and thus it would be reasonable to assume (and it is an assumption) their designs would have been more in line with the PVC plastic they're used to working with. I do not recall ND doing any other HIPS projects, but that could simply be ignorance on my part. However, from watching other projects the demands of HIPS are quite hefty, especially if you do not go through the added expense of newer technologies, and if you don't have a factory with engineers willing to work with you then things can go very sideways very fast.
They haven't. But otoh, they haven't done anything largescale enough to warrant HIPs. Other than WGF and possibly the factory that mantic and PP uses, I'm not sure of any other decent HIPs manufacturer in China. I think that old west boardgame by flying frog also uses HIPs but the details were fairly soft for their models or so I've heard.
Google searching is leading me to think it is HIPS, and according to FFP they're aware that the detail didn't turn out well enough in the core boxes, so they went over their later releases to enhance the details so they wouldn't be so easily lost.
Of the follow up expansions I have, I'm quite happy with their detail, but that's going to be a subjective thing.
Joyboozer wrote: Hi Mike, so how did the whole " treat Palladium with kid gloves" thing work out for you? And back at the beginning when Palladium pulled the bait n switch and we were told we should have known Palladium was in control?
And now it's all on Ninja Division?
For the record, I don't like Ninja Division, John comes off as a smug gak, and I can absolutely believe they would leave Palladium holding the bag.
But at no point does anything excuse Palladium from being completely useless, as I believe you yourself discovered in your dealings with Wayne?
ND screwing up should have been an immediate red flag that they needed to hire a project manager with experience in miniature manufacture and design. Two years later, have they done this?
You must be really confused. I never said PB was blameless. I have always said that they should have had a Project Manager and provided some oversight. This whole mess is because they did not provide oversight over ND. ND screwed up. PB should have been watching and made some bad moves and assumptions and them through their own actions have made it worse. I'd like you to point out specifically where I have said otherwise. Now what dealings I had with them were primarily with Jeff and they were for the most part good. I've had poor relations with Wayne every time. He was the main reason I decided screw it. If Jeff was still there, who knows? As to the lawsuit that people keep saying that Rick's laywer supposedly found. I would say that it is likely against Jeff, more likely than against ND because while ND screwed up, they did do the minimum required and PB's oversight or lack of likely left them with little that could be used to build any case against ND.
If Jeff was still there do you think things would have been done better? There seemed to be an implication at the time he was somehow to blame.
Jeff was much more open to listening to reasoning and changing things than anyone else. When I'd point out problems with the rules he would still want to review them with Carmen but some obvious things he'd be willing to change. OTOH others would fight to change anything whatsoever no matter what you'd say or arbitrarily change something a whole group of people discussed at length and decided upon. So if Jeff was still there I think the FAQ would have been updated much faster, changes to rules posted much faster, and more. He'd probably have not done much with the minis. I'm not sure how much control he had there. In the end I think things would not have been as bad as they are, although they would be far from rosy.
Joyboozer wrote: Hi Mike, so how did the whole " treat Palladium with kid gloves" thing work out for you? And back at the beginning when Palladium pulled the bait n switch and we were told we should have known Palladium was in control?
And now it's all on Ninja Division?
For the record, I don't like Ninja Division, John comes off as a smug gak, and I can absolutely believe they would leave Palladium holding the bag.
But at no point does anything excuse Palladium from being completely useless, as I believe you yourself discovered in your dealings with Wayne?
ND screwing up should have been an immediate red flag that they needed to hire a project manager with experience in miniature manufacture and design. Two years later, have they done this?
You must be really confused. I never said PB was blameless. I have always said that they should have had a Project Manager and provided some oversight. This whole mess is because they did not provide oversight over ND. ND screwed up. PB should have been watching and made some bad moves and assumptions and them through their own actions have made it worse. I'd like you to point out specifically where I have said otherwise. Now what dealings I had with them were primarily with Jeff and they were for the most part good. I've had poor relations with Wayne every time. He was the main reason I decided screw it. If Jeff was still there, who knows? As to the lawsuit that people keep saying that Rick's laywer supposedly found. I would say that it is likely against Jeff, more likely than against ND because while ND screwed up, they did do the minimum required and PB's oversight or lack of likely left them with little that could be used to build any case against ND.
If Jeff was still there do you think things would have been done better? There seemed to be an implication at the time he was somehow to blame.
Jeff was much more open to listening to reasoning and changing things than anyone else. When I'd point out problems with the rules he would still want to review them with Carmen but some obvious things he'd be willing to change. OTOH others would fight to change anything whatsoever no matter what you'd say or arbitrarily change something a whole group of people discussed at length and decided upon. So if Jeff was still there I think the FAQ would have been updated much faster, changes to rules posted much faster, and more. He'd probably have not done much with the minis. I'm not sure how much control he had there. In the end I think things would not have been as bad as they are, although they would be far from rosy.
I hope the fact he was willing to listen to the fans wasn't part of the reason he's no longer employed there.
Joyboozer wrote: Hi Mike, so how did the whole " treat Palladium with kid gloves" thing work out for you? And back at the beginning when Palladium pulled the bait n switch and we were told we should have known Palladium was in control?
And now it's all on Ninja Division?
For the record, I don't like Ninja Division, John comes off as a smug gak, and I can absolutely believe they would leave Palladium holding the bag.
But at no point does anything excuse Palladium from being completely useless, as I believe you yourself discovered in your dealings with Wayne?
ND screwing up should have been an immediate red flag that they needed to hire a project manager with experience in miniature manufacture and design. Two years later, have they done this?
You must be really confused. I never said PB was blameless. I have always said that they should have had a Project Manager and provided some oversight. This whole mess is because they did not provide oversight over ND. ND screwed up. PB should have been watching and made some bad moves and assumptions and them through their own actions have made it worse. I'd like you to point out specifically where I have said otherwise. Now what dealings I had with them were primarily with Jeff and they were for the most part good. I've had poor relations with Wayne every time. He was the main reason I decided screw it. If Jeff was still there, who knows? As to the lawsuit that people keep saying that Rick's laywer supposedly found. I would say that it is likely against Jeff, more likely than against ND because while ND screwed up, they did do the minimum required and PB's oversight or lack of likely left them with little that could be used to build any case against ND.
"ND screwed up" - is this from speculation, ND's posts or discussions with PB? Though with the latter, I'd still be suspicious.
ND certainly did get overzealous with the offerings during the campaign, but I suspect they had approval from PB, and certainly in the end PB's on the hook for their own awful follow-through. In the end, PB has firmly dug their own grave - and continues to dig while ND certainly got out before the hole was even waist deep.
I just want to clear up a misunderstanding that some people have, based on comments I’ve made in the last few Updates. While it is true that we have other obligations we must also address, and we are not focused on Robotech® RPG Tactics™ every minute of every day, that doesn’t mean we’re not working on RRT! It is constantly on our minds and IS a top priority. We are talking about it, going over plans and exploring options, and working on ways to make the 2016 relaunch awesome. Our goal is to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two everything it can be, and more. We look forward to putting Wave Two in your hands next year, and giving you the next generations of Robotech® mecha and adventures. We love Robotech® and appreciate the thousands of fans and Kickstarter backers. We want to regroup and make this game great. And that’s exactly what we are working at doing.
In the meantime, those of you Robotech® fans who have thought about trying this game should take advantage of the Black Friday/Cyber-Monday sale Palladium is offering this weekend, with prices you are likely to never see again. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a damn good game. The game pieces are highly detailed and made with quality and care. The rules are fast, fun, and truly capture the action of the television show you know and love. Don’t take our word for it, or anyone else’s – see for yourself while you can get the game and expansion packs at these amazing prices. You will not be disappointed. Five days only.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – Black Friday/Cyber-Monday WEEKEND Special – 5 days only – November 25-Dec 1, 2015
$55.00 for the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ “Starter Box” – Cat. No. 55100 – (normally $99.95 retail!) – includes core rule book, 30+ mecha game pieces, 53 cards, blast template, UEEF and Zentraedi dice, etc. Assembly required. Fast, fun rules that truly capture the TV show. Relive the clashes of the First Robotech War, engage in stand-alone tactical games, or use the dynamic game pieces to collect and put on your shelf. High quality and detailed game pieces. On sale for 5 days only.
$20.32 for UEDF Valkyrie Wing – Cat. No. 55201 (normally $36.95 retail).
$18.12 for UEDF Tomahawk/Defender Destroids – Cat. No. 55202 – (normally $32.95 retail).
$18.12 for UEDF Spartan/Phalanx Destroids – Cat. No. 55203 – (normally $32.95 retail).
$20.32 for Zentraedi Regult Battlepods – Cat. No. 55401 – (normally $36.95 retail).
$20.32 for Zentraedi Artillery Battlepods – Cat. No. 55402 – (normally $36.95 retail).
$20.32 for Zentraedi Glaug Command – Cat. No. 55403 – (normally $36.95 retail).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Robotech® Exclusives – Available to Everyone – Black Friday/Cyber-Monday WEEKEND Special – 5 days only – November 25-December 1, 2015
Normally available only at conventions and to our Kickstarter backers, we are making the 2015 Robotech® RPG Tactics™ EXCLUSIVES available to anyone over the Thanksgiving 4-day weekend and Cyber-Monday. These are dynamic, easy to build (4-9 pieces per figure) figures that look great. Get ‘em while you can.
NEW! Miriya Sterling’s Super Valkyrie in Guardian Mode. A sleek, dynamic item; 1/285th scale (6mm). $22
NEW! Breetai ready for combat. This is General Breetai in a suit of Zentraedi Heavy Body Armor. His right hand is opened enough to place a weapon, Micronian or the severed head of a Valkyrie or other bit of wreckage (not included); 1/285th scale (6mm). $22
NEW! Grell’s Male Power Armor. Includes a Grell Malcontents character card; 1/285th scale (6mm). $22
ONLY 4 weeks to Christmas – time is running out
Order your Palladium Christmas Surprise Package – the best deal in gaming – Offer ends December 24, 2015
Of the released models are the only units not covered in the base box the Spartan/Phallanx and Artillery pods? Given the model count of the base box and the price it seems one would be better off buying several copies to bulk out their forces and skip any of the individual boxes save for the ones that aren't featured.
Say I wanted a pair of Valk wings, it's only $10 more to get the base box and get a crapload of extra models (as well as 1 extra valk)
It's almost enough to tempt me to rebuy a box, as I sold my KS pledge right after it shipped. Sadly it'd mean giving Palladium more money and I just finally got the aftertaste of that experience out of my mouth from the first time. Anyone else want another chocolate covered pretzel?
Also weren't the battlefoam bags supposed to be a KS exclusive item?
No mention of their shipping pricing which you know will be out of this world. I wonder what the other retail people are selling them at... going to look.
Conrad Turner wrote: So once again, the 'backer & convention "Exclusives" are up for ANYONE to buy.
PB breaks that promise again - and it has happened so many times, are any of us surprised? Thought not.
I also like the fact that the three models that have been available for purchase for almost six months, and were as you mentioned, literally available 9 weeks ago, are being advertised as "new".
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FacelessMage wrote: This is probably just nitpicky of me but those numbers look strange.
$20.32 ? $18.12 ?
That is an odd set of numbers visually to be pricing something.
No, it's PB being incredibly specific. They offered 45% off their core box. So they just put the current MSRP's in the calculator, multiplied by 55%, and then put those as the "sale price".
Technically, they should be $18.12 and 1/4 of a cent, and $20.32 and 1/4 of a cent respectively, but couldn't figure out how to charge for a fraction of a cent. So, when you think about it, if you buy 400 expansion packs, you'll sneakily be saving a dollar more than you should have! What a bargain! Kevin "CMOT Dibbler" Siembieda in action.
Though as Talizvar suggested, they'll probably more than tack it on to shipping.
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stanman wrote: Of the released models are the only units not covered in the base box the Spartan/Phallanx and Artillery pods?
Also weren't the battlefoam bags supposed to be a KS exclusive item?
Yep, Spar/Phal and Arty Pods came in the BC expansion stuff, but are not included in the retail box.
stanman wrote: Say I wanted a pair of Valk wings, it's only $10 more to get the base box and get a crapload of extra models (as well as 1 extra valk)
Yeah, anyone looking for at least 2-3 expansions of figures that are found in the core box is generally better off just getting another core box for roughly the same price.
I would be shocked if this wasn't the reason that Spartan/Phalanx and Artillery Pods were the only expansions that are below "20+" stock on CSI: they're the only ones worth buying alone, unless one really wants Riflemen/Warhammers for Battletech or something.
Robotech remains at ~35% off as of this post, but I'd keep watching there for a potential drop to 50% off like last year.
Hell, wouldn't surprise me at all if the expansions found in the cores were discounted even more steeply to clear out stock on things that don't seem to be selling as well.
Joyboozer wrote: I was surprised he hasn't trademarked exclusive, his meaning of it seems to be unique.
I think it's enough that he's synonymous the concept of breaking promises.
While it is true that we have other obligations we must also address, and we are not focused on Robotech® RPG Tactics™ every minute of every day, that doesn’t mean we’re not working on RRT! It is constantly on our minds and IS a top priority.
That's reassuring. I was worried that they weren't considering the importance of the project but it's good to know that we're still a top priority right up there with embroidered glitterboy jackets and dice bags.
We look forward to putting Wave Two in your hands next year, and giving you the next generations of Robotech® mecha and adventures.
Yay! Robotech Wave Two in our hands next year! Just like it was supposed to be in our hands this year! Or last year! Or the year before that! But I'm sure THIS time they mean it, right guys? I'd point out that they just stealth extended Q2 2016 unofficially but they'll consider it officially when convienent to all of 2016.
1: wonder if Kevin realizes if he keeps selling Convention exclusives online to anyone hardly anybody will buy them from their booth?
2: Notice Kevin never said they are working on RRT only that its on their minds, they are thinking things like "How long can we screw over the backers before the law comes down?", "Will we be able to file a Bankruptcy that will protect us from the backers?", "Will Rick Continue to organize the backers against us?" (they actually said I was the mastermind behind everything against them, me thinks they give me way to much credit, not mastermind, just outspoken), "Who can we blame now for this disaster and not putting out wave 2?"
warboss wrote: Yay! Robotech Wave Two in our hands next year! Just like it was supposed to be in our hands this year! Or last year! Or the year before that! But I'm sure THIS time they mean it, right guys? I'd point out that they just stealth extended Q2 2016 unofficially but they'll consider it officially when convienent to all of 2016.
In all seriousness, I fully expect the only date they actually care about is Gencon 2016 for their own profits and I fully expect them to throw backers first! promises under the bus yet again just like in 2014 if it helps make tbat date. That said, I suspect the big "relaunch" will land like a wet wad of toilet paper supported only by stuff that was supposed to be free this past summer, that they'll miss the q2 window as well as gencon for wave two, and that we'll all be cracking jokes in 12 months about 2016 grab bags taking priority again over 3 year delayed robotech rewards.
Agreed. Gencon and Black Friday seem to be the only things they care about. It's sensible from a business perspective, but it becomes a "don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining" thing after this kind of an ongoing running gag.
It makes me read their commentary in a Christian Bale voice. "Oh you are SO DETERMINED to deliver to us by mid 2016? GOOD FOR YOU! There's no fething way that's related to how conveniently located Q2 is to Gencon? And if that slips why not just wait it out a few more months FOR THE GOOD OF EVERYONE and get that sweet Black Friday rush of sales? Gotta get those boxes into the hands of people that matter; distributors and retailers!"
The only appropriate celebrity douche response would be a Shia Lebouf "Just do it!" in that case.
I forgot to mention that the buddy of mine that went to Adepticon last year and broke the news of the Nov date to me and dakka when I posted it said there were no Robotech events on the Adepticon prereg list. I haven't double checked it (on mobile device) but if true then I expect last minute urgent calls for MA gm's and tourney organizers in a few months when Palladium gets around to thinking about it for the "relaunch".
Anybody else remember the super important Kevin project, of redoing Mechanoid. As Kevin said back then, it was the RPG that started it all so it is important to him to make sure it done. Only 20ish years and waiting.
Wait wait wait. It's all Ninja Division's fault now for writing the rules, making the models, and fulfilling the contract they made with PB? Ah, OK. But now it's all PB's fault, for what now? The delays and chronic mismanagement of the entire project? I'm so confused...
And I really love the update by Cypher-xv that attempts to explain the misunderstanding that some of us here have based on comments he has made in the last few updates. I mean, wow. I guess I misunderstood that Wave 2 has been pushed back again, but for good reasons that PB is unwilling to share with us. Really, I can get behind the fact that the staff at PB (like what, all three of them?) are talking about it, going over plans, and exploring options. I mean, I would have thought that was done like, oh I dunno, TWO OR THREE YEARS AGO.
But hey! They are talking about it! They are going over plans! And most importantly, exploring options (like Bankruptcy maybe? Sorry, I couldn't resist).
Of course, the obligatory "Buy Our Stuff on Black Friday Sale!" was just icing on the cake of Cleared Up Misunderstandings we all have. I'm still not sure what those misunderstanding are. The fact that Wave 1 did NOT have everything promised in the Kickstarter? That here we are, like two years later and still no Wave 2? That all the Kickstarter exclusives are now available to anyone (as long as it's Wave 1...)? That Wave 2 has been pushed back AGAIN? But oh, hey! In the meantime, play this train wreck of a game? Yeah, all you have to do is play a couple games and see this game plays NOTHING like the anime.
I don't even remember what I'm supposed to get in Wave 2. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the other backers didn't know either. I bet sometime in late 2017 I'm going to get some purple dice, and a patch and be told "Thanks for supporting the Robotech Tactics Kickstarter! Your Wave 2 order is now complete. Be sure to purchase more PB stuff!" But hey! I'll probably have forgotten all about Robotech Tactics by then, and I'm sure PB wouldn't mind.
ND certainly did get overzealous with the offerings during the campaign, but I suspect they had approval from PB, and certainly in the end PB's on the hook for their own awful follow-through. In the end, PB has firmly dug their own grave - and continues to dig while ND certainly got out before the hole was even waist deep.
Can you imagine if they didn't? Jesus Christ, I can only imagine...
If PB actually gave ND free reign to add whatever they felt like, with no checks or balances (or input) they're even dumber than I thought possible. And I'm pretty sure that level of stupid is actually impossible with a human being with an actual functional brain stem.
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FacelessMage wrote: This is probably just nitpicky of me but those numbers look strange.
$20.32 ? $18.12 ?
That is an odd set of numbers visually to be pricing something.
My first thought is that they were Canadian and Kevin busted out the ol' adding machine (with extra big crank!) to work out the prices in $US. But nope.
That is bizarre. Of course, so is the definition of "NEW".
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warboss wrote: The only appropriate celebrity douche response would be a Shia Lebouf "Just do it!" in that case.
I forgot to mention that the buddy of mine that went to Adepticon last year and broke the news of the Nov date to me and dakka when I posted it said there were no Robotech events on the Adepticon prereg list. I haven't double checked it (on mobile device) but if true then I expect last minute urgent calls for MA gm's and tourney organizers in a few months when Palladium gets around to thinking about it for the "relaunch".
Gauntlet thrown back in PB's face. Based on information Rick posted some time back, I've finally got my "Give a Damn" meter back up to 1% and send this to PB.
I took out the cost of my add-ins (in case any one else wants to cut and paste it with their own) that I added through the pledge manager and just left the value of an unfulfilled Battlecry, as best as I estimate.
As I'm pretty sure they will (loudly) decry a refund, the next step when I get their response would be refiling with the AG & now the FTC ... and maybe the BBB.
------------------------------------
Dear Palladium Books
As per FTC regulations Title 16 → Chapter I → Subchapter D → Part 435 §435.2 Mail, Internet, or telephone order sales I hearby give notice I reject your "proposed" delay of shipping Wave 2 from December of 2015 to 2016 Q2 and demand an immediate refund of the unfilled portion of my RRT order.
As per Kickstarter's Oct 2013 terms of service, Palladium is requires to fulfill ALL items offered in the KS and cannot claim that the shipped value is proper compensation for the entirety of the pledge. Based on an accumulated value of a base set + "extras" additional items added on in the backerkit, I have arrived at the following estimate for refund:
wonders if PB can feel the burn ? also I was a little more generous then you Stormanu and just prorated the undelivered portion of the RRT as $50 since couldn't really put a cost on things like the books and cards and such. also i'm still waiting on the promised dual colored blast template promised.
Asterios wrote: wonders if PB can feel the burn ? also I was a little more generous then you Stormanu and just prorated the undelivered portion of the RRT as $50 since couldn't really put a cost on things like the books and cards and such. also i'm still waiting on the promised dual colored blast template promised.
That's the thing. Stormonu didn't need to put a cost on the books and cards. PB already did. $80 for the books, cards, and all the contained miniatures, which he factored out at the start. You don't need to break that part down.
As for the colored template, I'm figuring that they've considered that resolved, just as they did the Tomahawk/Defender thing, which also lead to it being an issue with the Daedelus box (the graphic specifically shows 8 Tomahawks, people got the same 4/4 split as normal, even though it would have been easy to just add in more Toma sprues. "Oops, we done stuffed up, our bad, but tough luck" seems to be an onrunnning theme. I'm half expecting if they do produce Wave 2, they'll forget about the promise made with regards the VEF/1D box too, and use the same excuse.
Asterios wrote: wonders if PB can feel the burn ? also I was a little more generous then you Stormanu and just prorated the undelivered portion of the RRT as $50 since couldn't really put a cost on things like the books and cards and such. also i'm still waiting on the promised dual colored blast template promised.
That's the thing. Stormonu didn't need to put a cost on the books and cards. PB already did. $80 for the books, cards, and all the contained miniatures, which he factored out at the start. You don't need to break that part down.
As for the colored template, I'm figuring that they've considered that resolved, just as they did the Tomahawk/Defender thing, which also lead to it being an issue with the Daedelus box (the graphic specifically shows 8 Tomahawks, people got the same 4/4 split as normal, even though it would have been easy to just add in more Toma sprues. "Oops, we done stuffed up, our bad, but tough luck" seems to be an onrunnning theme. I'm half expecting if they do produce Wave 2, they'll forget about the promise made with regards the VEF/1D box too, and use the same excuse.
or they will just give out paper stand-ins and say oops our bad, thing is they are used to their fan base excusing their behavior and letting them slide which is also now happening with many backers, they let PB slide and as long as good people do nothing evil shall run rampant.
So PB fan is now name-calling? Oversensitive aren't you?
Not at all. Calling someone a PB fan here is being dismissive. Pretending it isn't is disingenuous, but your posts are getting more and more disingenuous as we go.
I'm curious why you assume the DEFAULT state for ND and PB is that they're sharing the profits.
I never once claimed they were. I never claimed anything about their financial agreement. You did, however. So feel free to back it up. I know you can't, which is why you keep trying to pass it off to me.
Probably best for you to drop it.
Are we seriously meant to believe that ND didn't screw up in the past because they are doing better today?
ND may have screwed up
Yep.
Says the person who seems to be very emotionally invested in PB and Kevin.
I think it is fairly clear I don't actually care about PB or Kevin, that I actually only care about this game and getting the remainder of my pledge. I don't like nor hate them.
Unlike so many who post here.
I think it is fairly clear I don't actually care about PB or Kevin, that I actually only care about this game and getting the remainder of my pledge. I don't like nor hate them.
Unlike so many who post here.
I wish I could sit back and just wait for Wave 2 to show up, would've really like my Monster. I did so for Zombicide season 2, and was pretty patient with Z3 - though in both cases at worst their stuff was only a month or two late.
However, after the Defiance KS, watching Prodos circle the drain on how their handling AvP (I'm so glad now I was too tapped out at the time to get into the KS) and waiting for 6 months on D&D cards on a stupid Gale Force 9/Battlefront order (that was screwed up 3 times), I don't feel like I can sit back and trust PB could let this run on autopilot to the end. To me, they obviously need a kick in a rear (or head, I guess) to realize this is other people's money they are sitting on, and just sitting on it isn't acceptable.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I don't know about you, but both Zombicide 2 and Zombicide 3 (Wave 1) arrived *early* for me - that's why I'd be OK backing CMoN projects.
Yeah, I got the Wave 1 for Z2 a day before the campaign's estimated shipping date, and the Z3 base game was sent out months(?) ahead of time. Both ended up being late for overall delivery but neither time was I worried - especially with Z3 when they lost the container in port! Why? Because they let us know what was going on, and were ready to make it right (in the latter, sending out what they had and ordering a replacement container at their own cost).
With PB, I feel the exact opposite - I feel uniformed and I get the sense that they just don't care as much as they should. I doubt they've EVER had a million dollars at their disposal before or after the KS for ANYTHING they have ever done, and right now "it's not their focus." - and clearly hasn't been for a year.
I gotta get this rant off my chest, because it really, really bugs me. I have been, for years and years, a procrastinator - and still slip into that habit every so often. And I think that is why PB's procrastination infuriates me so. I've been in situations at work where it's "hurry up and wait" and not been in a hurry to push something to completion. But PB takes the cake. They SHOULD have been working on ironing out the Wave 2 production the moment they got notification that the factory was starting to send Wave 1 out the door. AT WORST, it should have been about 4 months before they had something ironed out to start getting pre-production pieces. Two months AT MOST to iron out quality issues. That would have put them at what - Jan/Feb 2015 producing Wave 2? There is NO excuse that things have taken this long, especially with the silent treatment they have been giving us.
But yeah, it would be nice to get the Wave 2 stuff by this time next year.
That...that just depresses me - makes my stomach sink through the floor - that it could be how long we'd have to wait (at least). Though I've gotten to the point where I now believe they just don't have the money (nor enthusiasm) left to do all of Wave 2. I think Kevin's gotten bored and shelved the project until it somehow interests him in the future, when he comes up with some sham or half-arsed idea to promote it.
Wave 2 is a thing of the past, it is a smoke screen, this is why I'm going the lengths I am, it is because PB has shown us no evidence that wave 2 exists or is even being worked on, all they have done is shown us 3D images of the stuff ND did last year.
@stormonu: I did my own calculations and came up slightly different. I used the early bird pricing of $70 for the core box as that is the pricing in line with the showdown and reckless tiers. The super Valks are also $35 for 2.
So total is $420 for a non early bird battlecry and $410 for early birds, showdown and reckless tiers. Not too big a difference as the prorated cost comes out to about $57 per battlecry and a smidge higher for the non early bird battlecries.
Sending a similar request and will see how pb responds.
Stormonu wrote: That...that just depresses me - makes my stomach sink through the floor - that it could be how long we'd have to wait (at least). Though I've gotten to the point where I now believe they just don't have the money (nor enthusiasm) left to do all of Wave 2. I think Kevin's gotten bored and shelved the project until it somehow interests him in the future, when he comes up with some sham or half-arsed idea to promote it.
Fantastic that you care enough after all their shenanigans to have these feelings...
I am certain of their lack of enthusiasm, I think they may have clued into trying to keep the money than have it rolled into expensive dies and stock that does not sell.
They tend to overlook that the money is for meeting their committed "rewards" not for core business funding.
Funny though, I am sure he is torn since this is the biggest captive audience he has had for decades so it gives him the attention he craves but legal and BBB pokes are making him nervous until they linger long enough and have no traction and he can get all bold with us again.
As long as he thinks he can find a new way to get more cash from this cow he will take runs at it... as long as he can make us forget and pay for new product we already paid for in the kickstarter.
I suspect they're treating that robotech money like tax breaks for a home business. As long as they put in that paltry token amount of effort into the project weekly ("we made a phone call yesterday!!") that they believe constitutes them meeting the bare minimum to keep the letter of the kickstarter contract valid, they can use some of those funds to pay ongoing costs. I mean, they need to keep staff paid to make that phone call, right? Tiny percent of that bill comes from robotech. They need to pay the phone bill, electric bill, and mortage on the building to prep for and make than phone call, right? A tiny percent of those get taken from the robotech fund. Those are legitimate uses of the funds IF AND ONLY IF they're actually making progress. After a few years of delays, those tiny percent nibbles add up and in the meantime we as backers have been shown NOTHING since February as definitive progress on the existing rewards. We've instead gotten empty promises, a bunch of ancillary side projects that are NOT within the scope of the original kickstarter like "exclusive" and paper minis, and a single paragraph of rules corrections (sandwiched in a page of filler).
Stormonu wrote: That...that just depresses me - makes my stomach sink through the floor - that it could be how long we'd have to wait (at least). Though I've gotten to the point where I now believe they just don't have the money (nor enthusiasm) left to do all of Wave 2. I think Kevin's gotten bored and shelved the project until it somehow interests him in the future, when he comes up with some sham or half-arsed idea to promote it.
Fantastic that you care enough after all their shenanigans to have these feelings...
I am certain of their lack of enthusiasm, I think they may have clued into trying to keep the money than have it rolled into expensive dies and stock that does not sell.
They tend to overlook that the money is for meeting their committed "rewards" not for core business funding.
Funny though, I am sure he is torn since this is the biggest captive audience he has had for decades so it gives him the attention he craves but legal and BBB pokes are making him nervous until they linger long enough and have no traction and he can get all bold with us again.
As long as he thinks he can find a new way to get more cash from this cow he will take runs at it... as long as he can make us forget and pay for new product we already paid for in the kickstarter.
Not "real" fans. So, apart from getting a little chub at looking at the length of his email list...they totally don't matter and we all know it.
I swung by the Palladium forums today to see if there was any news/activity and I think I found the latest shocking episode of Palladium breaking their word:
Sigh, I think I am done with X-Mas Surprise Packages. I had planned to order 4 more but more often than not I've been disappointed by my orders.
In the latest order I got yet another duplicate for a book I already owned and wasn't even on my list of requested books. This time I only ordered 1 package but listed 30 books I wanted and still this happened again. :(
Last year was amazing. Sadly I've been disappointed about something with every single order except one. The biggest disappointment this year was getting Robotech RPG Tactics. I never asked for it and my hands are screwed up so I could never even assemble the miniatures if I wanted to. I would much rather have received the books I actually asked for. :(
I'm glad things have worked out for the rest of you. I was hoping to complete my collection this year but sadly it didn't work out. I ended up falling well short of my dream due to duplicates and receiving items I didn't even ask for or want.
My emphasis above. Of course, the official stance of Palladium is that:
Palladium Books wrote:
* Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Main Box Set – A small number of RRT main box games have been put aside for the 2015 Surprise Package! Give us a good reason to send you this awesome game with 30+ game pieces, rule book, 50 cards, 24 dice and more, and we’ll consider you. But you’d better have been a very good girl or boy. This game has a $99.95 value, so if you are one of the lucky ones to get one in your Grab Bag, it is the only item you will receive! An incredible way to try this game. Very limited.
Only people who request this item will be considered.
The DOUBLE emphasis above is Palladium's. Yes, even when they bold and italicize a definitive statement, they apparently have no qualms about breaking it soon after. This is of course no surprise given that they did the same thing during the 19 page update of everything except actual progress when referring to the latest batch of "exclusive" convention/backer minis... and then promptly broke that promise three times so far in the months since (the ongoing months long grab bag, the first "splash sale", and their Black Friday sale). The "exclusive" minis have been available to EVERYONE longer than they were ever actually exclusive, lol. And now we see that Robotech is such a hot commodity for Palladium that they're willing to just throw it into grab bags willy nilly when someone does NOT want it instead of a selection of 30 books. Yes, the RPG books that no one plays are more valuable than what we kickstarted apparently.
Eh... what can you do besides document the string of broken promises? I take solace in knowing that we are only weeks away from Rick dropping the legal hammer and hopefully cracking the wall of silence to see what is really (not) going on behind the scenes. Rick, will you be filing in the first week of 2016?
Now now Warboss, obviously that bolder word was written by someone else, most likely ninja division or the Chinese, who then also snuck in and mis packed the order.
Paladium loves it's fans, and Kevin must be in incredible pain right now.
Merijeek wrote: Yeah...that's not fething up. That is 100% exactly what was predicted by...well, just about everyone really.
The two are not mutually exclusive in the case of Palladium or Donald Trump.
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Joyboozer wrote: Now now Warboss, obviously that bolder word was written by someone else, most likely ninja division or the Chinese, who then also snuck in and mis packed the order.
Paladium loves it's fans, and Kevin must be in incredible pain right now.
Or treachery on the part of another disloyal employee. The possibilities are endless but the probability is always that Palladium just does/says what is most convienent for them at the time.
So, PB gives people things they specifically did not ask for and should not have received?
Why does this not surprise me?
<sing> Your a mean one, Mr Grinch...
Though a version of "I love it" seems more appropriate:
"I got this feeling on a summer day in 2013
I launched my kickstarter. I watched, I let it burn.
I threw your gak into a bag and pushed it out at Christmas.
I bought my car with KS funds.
I don't care, I love it.
I don't care."
Okay, I think I got my silliness out.
Back to my normal griping.
They probably just pull random stuff off of the designated overstock from the year and use it to create the grab bags. I've heard people getting great things that they wanted for the most part. Again, I think it's more of people know they are taking a risk at some random stuff for cheap and it does not always pan out. Plus, with these types of sales, if the person picking your stuff is having a crappy day, you are probably screwed.
Mike1975 wrote: They probably just pull random stuff off of the designated overstock from the year and use it to create the grab bags. I've heard people getting great things that they wanted for the most part. Again, I think it's more of people know they are taking a risk at some random stuff for cheap and it does not always pan out. Plus, with these types of sales, if the person picking your stuff is having a crappy day, you are probably screwed.
Of course it a risk it is a grab bag.
Except they quite clearly said only if you ask for RRT would you get a chance to get it and it your whole grab bag. So if you didn't ask for it you should not have to worry about if you get it or not.
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Mike1975 wrote: They probably just pull random stuff off of the designated overstock from the year and use it to create the grab bags. I've heard people getting great things that they wanted for the most part. Again, I think it's more of people know they are taking a risk at some random stuff for cheap and it does not always pan out. Plus, with these types of sales, if the person picking your stuff is having a crappy day, you are probably screwed.
Of course it a risk it is a grab bag.
Except they quite clearly said only if you ask for RRT would you get a chance to get it and it your whole grab bag. So if you didn't ask for it you should not have to worry about if you get it or not.
It could be the only way they get rid of the game and get some money at it, since evidently not too many are buying the game willingly or even requesting it.
Reading between the lines, he said he got a duplicate book and RRT, but the Grab Bag link notes that if you request the RRT core, it'll be the only thing you get.
So either they tried to 'sweeten the deal' with a book above and beyond what should have been sent in a core box grab bag, or when he says he got 'RRT' stuff, he might have just gotten some expansions and the book(s?).
Let's not overlook that at MSRP, it wouldn't be hard to bump an "$86-92+" package by a solid $75 with a pair of RRT expansions (many in the $37 range) plus an old Rifter or something.
Apparently this is PBs new way to try and build up a player community....What better way than to forcefully induct their best fans (people who actually order their grab bags) so that these fan-friends can now support RRT as well while having the game.
Forar wrote: Reading between the lines, he said he got a duplicate book and RRT, but the Grab Bag link notes that if you request the RRT core, it'll be the only thing you get.
So either they tried to 'sweeten the deal' with a book above and beyond what should have been sent in a core box grab bag, or when he says he got 'RRT' stuff, he might have just gotten some expansions and the book(s?).
Let's not overlook that at MSRP, it wouldn't be hard to bump an "$86-92+" package by a solid $75 with a pair of RRT expansions (many in the $37 range) plus an old Rifter or something.
That's not how I'm reading it. It sounds like he already had the rulebook (probably from a previous grab bag) and got just the robotech starter box as his only grab bag this year despite not asking/wanting it and supposedly giving a 30 book wish list of stuff he actually wanted. YMMV. Either way, he didn't want it and palladium broke their faux exclusivity promise and threw it in a grab bag anyways.
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Mike1975 wrote: They probably just pull random stuff off of the designated overstock from the year and use it to create the grab bags. I've heard people getting great things that they wanted for the most part. Again, I think it's more of people know they are taking a risk at some random stuff for cheap and it does not always pan out. Plus, with these types of sales, if the person picking your stuff is having a crappy day, you are probably screwed.
Indeed, I've said several times in the thread that my one and only grab bag in 2013 was actually quite nice both in terms of content and items I actually wanted. It's just frustrating to see Palladium yet again promise faux rarity only to break their word soon after. It's the (lack of) principle in the situation. As others have said, it's nothing new and sadly par for the course for Palladium.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I got a mid week update from Palladium not long ago. Apparently they "forgot" to turn off the extra special sale that includes 40-50% discounts on RRPGT as well as the totally not exclusive minis. They've decided to extend the sale after the fact just like with every Grab Bag in recent memory.
warboss wrote: That's not how I'm reading it. It sounds like he already had the rulebook (probably from a previous grab bag) and got just the robotech starter box as his only grab bag this year despite not asking/wanting it and supposedly giving a 30 book wish list of stuff he actually wanted. YMMV. Either way, he didn't want it and palladium broke their faux exclusivity promise and threw it in a grab bag anyways.
In the post you quoted he says he got a duplicate of a book he already had, not a second copy of the RRT rule book.
As I noted, it's possible he did get a core, I'm simply pointing out that he didn't *say* he got a core. He said he got RRT. For all we know they shipped him 3 VT squad boxes (or some other combination of expansions). That'd be $111 (msrp) in value right there!
One of us could ask him for clarification, but we can agree that it doesn't really matter. I'm not so much correcting you as I am thinking outside the box as to what he might have gotten. A weekend of sales later, CoolStuffInc still has the same quantity of Spartan/Phalanx boxes and Artillery Pod boxes they had before their Black Friday sales began (3 and 13 respectively).
Ergo, expansions found in the core box (ie; 2/3 of them) might not be selling particularly well elsewhere too.
Also, let's check the big board!
Days since the last update: 56 Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **145** Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 276 Days since the campaign ended: 926
Days until the end of Q2 2016: 212 (current "ideal") Days until Gencon 2016: 245 Days until the end of 2016: 396
It has been a month longer since we got substantial information than they have left until Gencon. As in, they have ~8 months to go and it has been 9 months since they showed us anything tangible. Like, mull that over for a second. Getting done in 7 months would be 'ideal', 8 would be Gencon time, and they have 11 and change until Black Friday 2016 (gotta pimp those sales!), and yet here we are, with nothing for an entire year but 5 sprue breakdowns and more *Jazzhands* than we know what to do with.
Agreed (that the take home point is that palladium broke yet another promise and a guy who gave 30 wish list non-robotech items got robotech instead despite assurances to the contrary).
On an unrelated note, I started painting my first "zentraedi" models this week. I put it in quotes because they're not actually Macross but I'm just borrowing the paint scheme for my Covenant Halo models. I've just got the base coat done so far with a wash and drybrush to bring out the panel lines but I should be adding some black, grey, and yellow bits later this week as well as Robotech decals.
And the inspiring paint scheme:
I'm not sure yet which bits I'll do in grey versus yellow versus black.
It's the horrible lighting (hence the simultaneous apology). They're spray painted hunter camo green with a catachan green dry brush over it after the black wash into the recesses.
edit: I changed up the pics to better ones. Hopefully that'll help.
Days since the last update: 56 Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **145** Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 276 Days since the campaign ended: 926
Days until the end of Q2 2016: 212 (current "ideal") Days until Gencon 2016: 245 Days until the end of 2016: 396
It has been a month longer since we got substantial information than they have left until Gencon. As in, they have ~8 months to go and it has been 9 months since they showed us anything tangible. Like, mull that over for a second. Getting done in 7 months would be 'ideal', 8 would be Gencon time, and they have 11 and change until Black Friday 2016 (gotta pimp those sales!), and yet here we are, with nothing for an entire year but 5 sprue breakdowns and more *Jazzhands* than we know what to do with.
Also worth noting regarding the first point, that if they don't do an Update this weekend, it'll be the longest period without an Update since the project started. The longest being March 18th to May 14th (57 days, or just over 8 weeks). For someone who wanted to restart the conversation, promised to do more Updates, and assured the BBB that they were keeping backers informed on a regular basis, that's noteworthy in it's lack of noteworthiness.
That's not to say that the last Update(s) was(were) meaningful. The last one was an FAQ entry many months in the making. The one previous was paper standees of items that most backers had had for months if not a year or more, and you have to go back to August 26th (97 days, or almost 14 weeks) to get a reference to Wave 2. Which was ironically the update where Kevin explicitly stated "And we’ll try to do more updates.". Yeah, two in 14 weeks, neither of which were relevant to, or mentioned the outstanding product.
EDIT: Outstanding meaning stuff owed, not in any way referring to the quality.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm far more hopeful about Kingdom Death : Monster (final) Wave 3 arriving Q1!
After seeing Kingdom Death in general "hopeful" does not begin to describe how worth-it those models are.
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Forar wrote: Yay Talizvar! Thanks. I'd been worried that I might not be accounting for lost hours here and there, now we have some serious accuracy present.
Glad to be of some help.
I could probably figure-out the rest of your countdowns of doom in Excel so it would be simple copy-paste.
But I am sure you are doing it for the joy it brings PB and cheering them on!
For those that might be tired of waiting on wave 2 Robotech fans have been working on a few things.
First several units from Macross have been converted over for use in RRT and we are slowly working on more and more.
Second, with the fixed squadron formations and all I find RRT limiting. I have a ton on old Battletech and even some CAV minis so we have an optional version of RRT where you can ditch the fixed squadrons and use what you like. Rules are a bit different of course but if you want you can find it under Mecha Skirmish on Facebook......one day when my web skills and time available have improved I might build a website for it. I love RRT but don't want to let all my other minis sit and collect dust so....
There are also rules for converting units from any source so if you want some Gundam or Dougram or whatever....you'll have help writing those up.
Third, there is also a Diorama contest for December with a few VF's and Battlepods as prizes over on the RRT Facebook page.
Not to put Mike down - he's doing an amazing job for someone going it alone - but at this point, doing better at RRT than PB. Well, it's not really that hard, is it?
Put out a picture of a sprue this week, the assembled model next week/month, and a picture of the painted model the week/month after that, and you'd be blowing PB out of the water on verifiable progress on RRT items!
Conrad Turner wrote: Not to put Mike down - he's doing an amazing job for someone going it alone - but at this point, doing better at RRT than PB. Well, it's not really that hard, is it?
Put out a picture of a sprue this week, the assembled model next week/month, and a picture of the painted model the week/month after that, and you'd be blowing PB out of the water on verifiable progress on RRT items!
heck my pictures I post are leaps and bounds ahead of PB.
Easy E wrote: Again, Mike proves that he cares more about RRT than Palladium does.
Well said.
Yet also not hard to say.
I wonder how much Robotech stuff "fans" can make until cease and desist letters start getting handed out?
Probably when Kevin starts to think he does not matter... yep, any day now.
Conrad Turner wrote: but at this point, doing better at RRT than PB. Well, it's not really that hard, is it?
You underestimate how hard Palladium is working on this. They made TWO, not one but TWO, phone calls last week. Plus we got a whole paragraph mentioning the product in the previous full murmur that wasn't just copy pasted. It actually had some new sentences telling us why were ungrateful for wanting a product on track for just a 3 year delay. You just don't appreciate the progress secretly being made that they can't show us or even mention except for vague often repeated and easily deniable in the future statements. Your expectations are unreasonable and you should apologize by buying some grab bags.
Mike1975 wrote: we have an optional version of RRT where you can ditch the fixed squadrons and use what you like. Rules are a bit different of course but if you want you can find it under Mecha Skirmish on Facebook...
There are also rules for converting units from any source so if you want some Gundam or Dougram or whatever....
Are the Mecha Skirmish rules published off FB? Perhaps under Proposed Rules?
Is Mecha Skirmish a clean sheet, RRT tweaked, or some other variant? What are the key objectives and design goals, beyond simply "use what you like"?
The reason I ask is because I'm working up streamlined mecha skirmish rules of my own (i.e. "KOG light"), so I am looking for comparisons.
Mike1975 wrote: we have an optional version of RRT where you can ditch the fixed squadrons and use what you like. Rules are a bit different of course but if you want you can find it under Mecha Skirmish on Facebook...
There are also rules for converting units from any source so if you want some Gundam or Dougram or whatever....
Are the Mecha Skirmish rules published off FB? Perhaps under Proposed Rules?
Is Mecha Skirmish a clean sheet, RRT tweaked, or some other variant? What are the key objectives and design goals, beyond simply "use what you like"?
The reason I ask is because I'm working up streamlined mecha skirmish rules of my own (i.e. "KOG light"), so I am looking for comparisons.
Feel free to come over and help out. The rules are mostly RRT. Anti-Missile and a few other things are altered slightly as well as Roll with Impact. Command Points are now Action Points and Leadership Points. You can find some info here
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vaHpZOW5RRlBEQzA
@Mike - Thanks very much for the link, I'll check it out tonight.
I'm kind of busy trying to get KL from Alpha to Beta, so I've got my hands full! Down the road, I'm thinking to potentially reskin KL from Heavy Gear to Macross, so I'd have a quick way and easy way of playing my RRT minis.
Feel free to look it over and make suggestions too....this is a WIP....a collaborative effort to make a game that we can all enjoy with or without RRT minis.
Mike1975 wrote: Feel free to look it over and make suggestions too....this is a WIP....a collaborative effort to make a game that we can all enjoy with or without RRT minis.
Ha, the second part isn't really by choice though.
Mike1975 wrote: Feel free to look it over and make suggestions too....this is a WIP....a collaborative effort to make a game that we can all enjoy with or without RRT minis.
Ha, the second part isn't really by choice though.
Yes, and No.....I always planned on converting over to a single system. I bought RRT, the Alpha Strike Rules, Mekton, HG, and CAV. I prefer my modified RRT since I like the rules and I can use whatever I want.
It continues to amuse me that they have the big DO NOT POST MECH STATS thread/warning on PB's forums, but Mike just links to another page full of mech stats and they don't seem to care.
Like, they have a reputation for sending other sites C&D's over posting conversions to PB's rules set, but don't seem to mind Mike having all kinds of IP's adopted to RRT.
Not a complaint, just an odd bit of inconsistency from them.
Also, something about PB's forums is pissing off my work's web filter.
Forar wrote: It continues to amuse me that they have the big DO NOT POST MECH STATS thread/warning on PB's forums, but Mike just links to another page full of mech stats and they don't seem to care.
Like, they have a reputation for sending other sites C&D's over posting conversions to PB's rules set, but don't seem to mind Mike having all kinds of IP's adopted to RRT.
Not a complaint, just an odd bit of inconsistency from them.
Also, something about PB's forums is pissing off my work's web filter.
Forar, they have to take something seriously. Obviously promises, delivery dates, and project management don't fit the bill but they definitely draw the line at conversions. As Rick said above, they did crack down on Mike today and that was the initial reason I asked my question about cracking down on his facebook group as well.
I'd compliment your adware filter but it's really not a great feat of programming to determine Palladium's communications and website as either. Heck, their weekly updates have to deny they're not spam each and every time at the very top!
It's a violation of Forums of the Megaverse rules to make posts containing, requesting or promoting the conversions of others IP to a Palladium game system. That rule has been in place since before 2000.
He posted about his rules on Palladium and I had to give him a warning.
What you do here is up to Dakka Dakka's moderators to make their call about.
What's the fotms policy on taking people's money for something and not delivering? Or intentional deceit?
Wonderful you have such strict guidelines over there, I can see why it's so popular.
Joyboozer wrote: What's the fotms policy on taking people's money for something and not delivering? Or intentional deceit?
Wonderful you have such strict guidelines over there, I can see why it's so popular.
their guidelines and rules are for the lesser peons like us, PB is above the law and can do whatever they want to.
Jefffar wrote: It's a violation of Forums of the Megaverse rules to make posts containing, requesting or promoting the conversions of others IP to a Palladium game system. That rule has been in place since before 2000.
He posted about his rules on Palladium and I had to give him a warning.
What you do here is up to Dakka Dakka's moderators to make their call about.
That's OK, I can fully understand a company basing an RPG on basically copycatting every IP in the world under a magical new name knowing the risks of any other IP even under the auspices of a different title. If PB wants to "protect" RRT and the Robotech IP's value then they are much better served upholding their promises and delivering than worrying about the IP that they may well turn into a worthless quantity through inattention and lack of communication, work, work ethic, plain old ethics.....etc.
Thanks, Smilodon. That reads like a outline of the post Kickstarter period of this project. I guess Kevin must have "accidentally" copy pasted that into the Palladium employee manual decades ago when it was declassified. The only thing missing from that article (I didn't read the book yet) is step #1: All decisions must go through me no matter how mundane or how many times the same thing was decided in the past. If the decision proves ultimately to be wrong, it is the fault of the employee, partner, or fan friend who initially brought it to my attention.
Jefffar wrote: It's a violation of Forums of the Megaverse rules to make posts containing, requesting or promoting the conversions of others IP to a Palladium game system. That rule has been in place since before 2000.
He posted about his rules on Palladium and I had to give him a warning.
What you do here is up to Dakka Dakka's moderators to make their call about.
Oh? So PB has softened their stance on using their terms/properties and conversions to and from them?
Because this seems pretty clear on those matters, requiring the appropriate trademark/copyright symbols and on conversions being verboten.
Not that I'm trying to pick a fight or get Mike into trouble, but let's not be coy, PB has a reputation for C&D letters. The leniency shown to Mike and his pages doing conversions stands out in that context.
If an actual policy has changed, that would be interesting to hear.
Jefffar wrote: It's a violation of Forums of the Megaverse rules to make posts containing, requesting or promoting the conversions of others IP to a Palladium game system. That rule has been in place since before 2000.
He posted about his rules on Palladium and I had to give him a warning.
What you do here is up to Dakka Dakka's moderators to make their call about.
Oh? So PB has softened their stance on using their terms/properties and conversions to and from them?
Because this seems pretty clear on those matters, requiring the appropriate trademark/copyright symbols and on conversions being verboten.
Not that I'm trying to pick a fight or get Mike into trouble, but let's not be coy, PB has a reputation for C&D letters. The leniency shown to Mike and his pages doing conversions stands out in that context.
If an actual policy has changed, that would be interesting to hear.
Almost got one already for "Malcontent" dice. Still have not seen PB make any. Remember.....they are solo busycwith wave two. All their energy goes towards that.....unless they need to print some Rifts rag, work on an RPG book, whittle themselves a wooden statue to the Rifts gods etc....
For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?
evilsmurf wrote: Also in the PB forums, any necroed thread gets immeadietly locked permanently. Im guessing followed soon after by summary execution.
Locking a necroed thread and issuing a warning either official or just in thread is normal and also happens here. Palladium's conversion policy and overalk IP stance is not. Kevin Siembieda hilariously tried to trademark "Necron" a decade back for an undead space race. Apparently doing a simple web search is NOT a part of the rigorous process he uses to determine what words he claims to own.
For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?
An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.
For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?
An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.
Actually Mike even PB said they made changes to the designs and sent them back to ND, in their updates.
For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?
An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.
Actually Mike even PB said they made changes to the designs and sent them back to ND, in their updates.
That's just stretching and dumb dude. PB has no ability with 3D modeling. They were referring to adjusting sizes, details and asking ND to alter the 3D models to better portray the drawings. ND did the work. It's like me seeing a picture and seeing a mech with the arms to small and telling the artist to adjust it some.
For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?
An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.
Actually Mike even PB said they made changes to the designs and sent them back to ND, in their updates.
That's just stretching and dumb dude. PB has no ability with 3D modeling. They were referring to adjusting sizes, details and asking ND to alter the 3D models to better portray the drawings. ND did the work. It's like me seeing a picture and seeing a mech with the arms to small and telling the artist to adjust it some.
and thats just like PB having the factory (not the original one ND suggested) do the cuts, ND sent the designs as solid pieces with minimal designs, the factory cut them up, thats why all the #D drawings of the splits were from the factory, not ND.
For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?
An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.
But Wayne was being told the cuts were terrible in the comments when he bothered to post picks. If Palladium had bothered listening to backers at any point instead of labelling them haterz, it should have been obvious.
WRRD must have some experience building miniatures, did they never ask him for an opinion?
It seems like what you are trying to say us is that ND gave the final ok, but as you pointed out when we all complained about the ND/ Palladium bait and switch, everyone should have known Palladium would be in charge.
So, it doesn't really matter who gave the OK, if Palladium had updated more, listened to feedback, and not been in a rush for gencon, we wouldn't be in this situation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, going further, are we to take this blame ND stance as to why Palladium need to relaunch? It will be ND free?
Some pathetic attempt by Palladium to relaunch the game with a hinted at notion that all its problems were because of a third party, and assurances that they are no longer involved, so that this time around everything will be absolutely mouth watering and the best possible product, everyone says so?
Don't forget cheapness. If there's one overriding factor with these people (apart from incompetence, and fan-friends telling them their poop smells like roses), it's cheapness.
Merijeek wrote: Don't forget cheapness. If there's one overriding factor with these people (apart from incompetence, and fan-friends telling them their poop smells like roses), it's cheapness.
Always cheapness.
Definitely.
Another rather annoying trait about companies like PB, Prodos, or DP9, et al, is that more often than not even the decision to be their ''enemy'' in the first place is taken away from most everyone individually or as a group type.
Such organizations decide whenever or wherever for whatever ''reasons'' either directly, or indirectly through the inevitable fan-friends of convenience, who is and isn't a detractor (I.E. filthy hater) and by so doing turn self-justifying perception into self-fulfilling reality.
It's kind of like trying to counter terrorism with terror; by the time whomever has bombed their village yet again or renditioned umpteen family members into unmonitored interrogation, if there wasn't hardcore feelings and/or actual hostile intent against those responsible there soon will be anyways.
For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?
An unusual amount? What do you think? PB has zero minis experience and let ND basically make nearly all the decisions. They are not known for doing their homework.
But Wayne was being told the cuts were terrible in the comments when he bothered to post picks. If Palladium had bothered listening to backers at any point instead of labelling them haterz, it should have been obvious.
WRRD must have some experience building miniatures, did they never ask him for an opinion?
It seems like what you are trying to say us is that ND gave the final ok, but as you pointed out when we all complained about the ND/ Palladium bait and switch, everyone should have known Palladium would be in charge.
So, it doesn't really matter who gave the OK, if Palladium had updated more, listened to feedback, and not been in a rush for gencon, we wouldn't be in this situation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, going further, are we to take this blame ND stance as to why Palladium need to relaunch? It will be ND free?
Some pathetic attempt by Palladium to relaunch the game with a hinted at notion that all its problems were because of a third party, and assurances that they are no longer involved, so that this time around everything will be absolutely mouth watering and the best possible product, everyone says so?
Never said PB was not at fault, just that this whitewash that it is all on them....I don't agree with it. If MY name was on something, you'd be sure that I would make sure it was a decent product in my mind. I would not let PB put my name one something as central as the minis and let the things turned to crap without asking to have my name removed from the product. ND, in my mind, took off and dissapeared way to quick and cleanly and with what seems to be little protest. Now that being said, I've never said the Lion's share of the fault was on PB. Although a large and growing percentage is as time goes to PB as they continue to muck things up and make them worse and worse. Regardless, both share a good deal of fault IMHO and only the end game will reveal how much and what percentage we can apportion and where.
The relaunch IMO is just another gimmick to buy time and pretend things will change. Until I hear actual information of what the relaunch will entail, it is just so much smoke.
They did take off quick, and as I've said before, can easily see ND playing it sleazy.
But say they were legit, what was the alternative? If you had the option to get out or keep dealing with Palladium, wouldn't you take the out?
You mentioned how you got tired of dealing with Wayne, how would it have gone if he's tardiness was costing you business hours rather than just wasting your time?
For some inexplicable reason I just checked the KS comments and noticed yours about ND making the cuts.
It's always been my experience that designers and manufacturers are seperate in this and other fields, they might work off of specifics given to one another, but I've never encountered a designer dictating manufacture.
I'm guessing from everything implied about the Kickstarter was that the details had to be exact, and that this came from Palladium, I'm genuinely curious if ND have an unusual amount of influence over the chosen manufacturer in this case?
The only case of a designer making cuts that I know of is DFG where the designer/owner told the WGF guys where to make/improve the cuts after they passed him the cuts they already made. It seems that it's common factory practice for factories to make the cuts from models and then send them for approval rather than designers making the cuts, no matter what Palladium or Kevin says.
Merijeek wrote: Don't forget cheapness. If there's one overriding factor with these people (apart from incompetence, and fan-friends telling them their poop smells like roses), it's cheapness.
Always cheapness.
Definitely.
Another rather annoying trait about companies like PB, Prodos, or DP9, et al, is that more often than not even the decision to be their ''enemy'' in the first place is taken away from most everyone individually or as a group type.
Such organizations decide whenever or wherever for whatever ''reasons'' either directly, or indirectly through the inevitable fan-friends of convenience, who is and isn't a detractor (I.E. filthy hater) and by so doing turn self-justifying perception into self-fulfilling reality.
Kind of like demanding people prove a negative with proprietary documents, and if people can't do that (and no, they can't), clearly it isn't their hero's fault?
ND has been out of things for a while. They did what they thought they needed to and ran.
Thanks for the clarification.
The relaunch IMO is just another gimmick to buy time and pretend things will change. Until I hear actual information of what the relaunch will entail, it is just so much smoke.
I definitely agree with that. The "relaunch", like the scale discussion and conventional vehicles, will likely just be another temporary distraction (jazz hands in Forar's parlance) and will probably only include expansions and products that are NOT under the scope of the kickstarter, half of which were promised to be released free this past summer. I do NOT expect the wave 2 kickstarter rewards to be a part of this next sham but rather the wave 2 paper standees and conventional vehicle rules that are months late already and probably the "advanced rules" book for sale that will be the lynchpin of this "relaunch". Oh, and the "exclusive" minis will be available for everyone yet again assuming that they're at some point made not available after months of grab bag inclusion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Joyboozer wrote: They did take off quick, and as I've said before, can easily see ND playing it sleazy.
But say they were legit, what was the alternative? If you had the option to get out or keep dealing with Palladium, wouldn't you take the out?
You mentioned how you got tired of dealing with Wayne, how would it have gone if he's tardiness was costing you business hours rather than just wasting your time?
That is a good point. If Mike got tired of dealing with Wayne for only a small set of optional rules after a few phone calls, I can imagine that dealing with them on the main KS rewards on a daily basis was probably much more taxing. Doing what they were contractually obligated to and possibly over until they realized it wouldn't stop and then saying enough is enough is reasonable potentially from their perspective. ND was at the time already in deep water for their own KS that they screwed up themselves and likely doing free revisions/work apparently outside of the scope of their contract (constant revisions? managing post KS communications? free packing/shipping labor?) was probably a relatively low priority.
Even somebody as detail oriented and control freaky (in a good way) as Adam at Kingdom Death has the factory make the cuts on his plastic models,
the people who make the cuts are specialists and even his high end sculptors are not trained (well enough) in this activity,
however once the cuts have been made he goes over the results with a fine toothed comb to ensure they make sense in regards to what he wants to achieve..... so removing cuts in the middle of fine details, sprue gates on faces etc
the professional cutters will do what makes most sense in terms of fitting stuff in a certain sprue area and will allow the plastic to flow properly to fill the mould, but they may well not understand the details of what matters in terms of where the cuts are made, where the gates are placed etc, that's down to the end user to specify
A "re-launch" is just another way for PB to make old product "seem like new!".
It is like trying to make a first impression... again.
I think they genuinely want to try to flog RRT for all it's worth since it is stock on-hand.
The distraction from wave2 would be a pleasant bonus but I think they may be past that pretense by now.
Oh lookie! It has been over two months and a day since our last KS update!
I find the blame-game of ND and PB kind of odd.
Not having sufficient knowledge on a given subject will not prevent someone from being able to manage a project successfully.
I would think ND being accountable for fault is completely based on the terms of their contract.
PB's lack of knowledge or oversight are both items that could have been easily remedied at their end so I still think they are accountable and at fault no matter what.
You would think PB would scream blue-murder otherwise.
Despite being on the topic of PB and pretty much being turned against them myself, every business should perform "due diligence" and research any new endeavor.
It is always wonderful to engage the "experts" but it is always good to learn all you can so you can spot when things are not right.
I have reviewed so many businesses where people would say "I have done this for 20 years! I know what I am doing."
Which you must always assume they have not learned a thing during that time.
They know how to make things really well with 20 year old technology.
BUT in the end, we are not told squat about wave 2 other than half-baked assurances.
I would not be surprised to receive my models in high quality dental plaster. <edit> If at all, and only during threat of government intervention of the nasty kind.
I like the comparison to making a first impression again.
As for ND and PB... I agree that ND likely screwed up in 2013 and possibly early 2014 behind the scenes. They had a history of an ongoing screw up with Relic Knights at the time so their record was hardly spotless. The difference though is that they seemed to have learned their lesson(s) judging from their actions and accomplishments since whereas Palladium has not and continues to make the same mistakes over and over. Even if ND was entirely (or... say... 98%) responsible for the initial screwups, Palladium has had now AT LEAST one full calendar year to recognize, address, and correct the lingering effects since ND waved goodbye. The reality is that they've had two full years since the mistakes were made public at spartangate and the wave split and 2 1/2 years since Palladium themselves admitted they knew about the scope of the cluster feth. That is more than enough time for a team of semi-competent people to correct those initial mistakes multiple times over.
Mike1975 wrote: Never said PB was not at fault, just that this whitewash that it is all on them....I don't agree with it. If MY name was on something, you'd be sure that I would make sure it was a decent product in my mind. I would not let PB put my name one something as central as the minis and let the things turned to crap without asking to have my name removed from the product. ND, in my mind, took off and dissapeared way to quick and cleanly and with what seems to be little protest. Now that being said, I've never said the Lion's share of the fault was on PB. Although a large and growing percentage is as time goes to PB as they continue to muck things up and make them worse and worse. Regardless, both share a good deal of fault IMHO and only the end game will reveal how much and what percentage we can apportion and where.
This comes across as splitting hairs, Mike. Nobody sensible that I've seen is proclaiming PB the devil nor ND saints beyond reproach, but as has been brought up again and again, if one team is doing the work and the other is signing off on it (PB and HG), the lions share ends up with the people who signed off (at least) on what was done, if not actively directed the workers towards the end result. Some keep stating that ND 'ran away', when it seems equally (if not more) likely that they completed their obligations and washed their hands of dealing with PB further, which is an entirely sensible thing to do.
As was discussed pages ago, arguing repeatedly whether PB is 90% at fault or 80% at fault is pointless, the end results of stagnation and transparent attempts at obfuscation are on them. When we're finally told that Q2 is no longer even an ideal but 'guys why not buy some core boxes and exclusives while waiting for the new totally firm target of Black Friday 2016!' it'll still settle on their shoulders. As you point out they seem to be flailing about to grasp onto any distraction they can get their hands on, "ND betraaaaaayed ussssss!" just being one along the way that has few direct refutations, due to ND's ongoing silence on the matter.
We'll probably never know where the exact breakdowns lay. One side is an unreliable narrator known for self-aggrandizement and minimization of fault, the other has been silent to the point of an NDA (or some other contractual obligation) potentially being involved. I think ND pulling all references to RRT from their site and list of supported games is plenty of distancing themselves, wouldn't you? Frankly they may not have any say what goes on the packaging and whatnot going forward; they did the work, the layout is done, what makes it reasonable to think they have the kind of pull/clout to get that changed?
The only way we'll get a full point by point breakdown would be if someone really went to work on them legally (over this or something else that ended up cracking open the books), or if such a contract was broken, voided, or otherwise ended, at which point I'd love to get a full blown tell-all from someone on the inside.
Look, maybe it's nitpicking of my own, but part of the communication issue here comes down to using absolutes. It's never "I think ND fethed them in an uncomfortable place", it's "ND fethed them." It's not "maybe _____", it's almost always stated definitively, and as someone who has spoken to Kevin and Wayne and others on the project, who has been on calls, that comes across as muddying the waters between opinion and knowledge of fact. Further complicated because Kevin and co have cried wolf so many times that being told of another dastardly betrayal simply doesn't carry much weight.
I know I'm *very* conscious of what I state as opinion. I try to cite my sources, to show the train of thought or connections that led from A to B to C. Maybe that's just my anal retentive side showing, but your inclusion in aspects of the project make it hard to separate "this is what Mike thinks" versus "this is what Mike knows, but probably shouldn't be saying out loud, or cannot provide sourcing for... or the sourcing is Kevin so take with a fatal level of salt."
Edit: also, my thread on the PB forums is gone. :-(
Forar wrote: Some keep stating that ND 'ran away', when it seems equally (if not more) likely that they completed their obligations and washed their hands of dealing with PB further, which is an entirely sensible thing to do.
You know what? ND "ran away" from Prodos, after completing their distribution obligations and washed their hands of dealing with further dealing with Prodos. Equally sensible to run away screaming from the AvP mess. But you know what? I bet there's a Prodos white knight who's arguing that the US distribution is ND's fault...
I haven't seen one likely because they publicly bailed before ever receiving a single item (iirc prodos didn't ship to them for weeks after the announcement naming them as distributor and giving a date). Like I said... They've apparently learned a least a partial lesson after dealing with Palladium although they shouldn't have gotten mixed up at all with AVP if they had completely learned it. All they need to do now is volunteer to handle layout and production for Mekton Zero's kickstarter and the circle of suck is complete.
Wait, ND could relaunch the KS for HG's Robotech relaunch... That would be the ultimate cherry on the gak sandwich.
OTOH, if we look at actual US-oriented anime, the Animeigo BGC KS seems to have done pretty well, delivering with extras in Dec. '14 vs. estimated target Aug '14. Backers pretty happy with it, too. Too bad I didn't back that instead of this...
JohnHwangDD wrote: Wait, ND could relaunch the KS for HG's Robotech relaunch... That would be the ultimate cherry on the gak sandwich.
OTOH, if we look at actual US-oriented anime, the Animeigo BGC KS seems to have done pretty well, delivering with extras in Dec. '14 vs. estimated target Aug '14. Backers pretty happy with it, too. Too bad I didn't back that instead of this...
Thanks for posting about that. I hadn't seen it, and BGC is probably my all time favorite outside Robotech.
warboss wrote: All they need to do now is volunteer to handle layout and production for Mekton Zero's kickstarter and the circle of suck is complete.
I think they're still looking for someone to do the miniatures.
Say what you will about Mekton Zero's KS (and there's a lot to say), they're at least offering refunds to unsatisfied backers.
I wasn't aware of that as the updates have been backer only for most of the year (and I'm not a backer). I had to ask here in the thread last time a few months back for the content. I'm glad they finally are as their communication made Palladium's look almost like a shinning example at times.
I know several folks are probably tired of hearing me and Rick beating on the "sue" soapbox, but I want to make a plea to urge folks one last time before the year is out to not take a "wait-and-see" attitude with PB. I feel it is clear the company has completely stagnated on its progress with this KS, and urge you to write, e-mail or otherwise contact palladium that this is not acceptable behavior - whether its requesting a refund, demanding an update, investigating legal action or just poking the bear, please don't let PB write us off with inaction.
Stormonu wrote: I know several folks are probably tired of hearing me and Rick beating on the "sue" soapbox, but I want to make urge folks one last time before the year is out to not take a "wait-and-see" attitude with PB. I feel it is clear the company has completely stagnated on its progress with this KS, and urge you to write, e-mail or otherwise contact palladium that this is not acceptable behavior - whether its requesting a refund, demanding an update, investigating legal action or just poking the bear, please don't let PB write us off with inaction.
I would second this.
I did my BBB complaint.
Talked to my government on consumer law and never got the civil service worker to get back to me.
So, yeah, at least force Kevin to exercise more of his creative writing skills.
I will be happy to submit all correspondence I had if anyone finally files against PB.
It is the least I can do.
Well, looks like the PBForum Mods are considering questioning the status of Wave 2 and putting forward the option of legal actions are "lies about Palladium and active wishes of harm to the company", and grounds for both thread deletion, and user banning, according to backer and former PBForum member Drachnien.
As long as there wasn't anything further (got no reason to doubt Drachnien, but there's often three sides to an argument), that's pretty lame as a justification for deleting Forar's thread. The thread did prove a point though. Started 4+ months ago, since PB "restarted" the conversation, nothing but a couple of schedule delays (with no listed reason) has happened. So it was a stark reminder of their inaction, and had to go.
Was wondering if the PBMods were being a bit more tolerant in the last little bit. Doesn't appear they are. Just appears like they're just lazier (if that's what set off the mod's banhammer, thread should have been deleted months ago).
I emailed them a month and a half ago (October 28th, to be exact), outlining very clearly that I'd like to see something, *anything* from them.
Spoiler:
Hello,
Almost 4 months ago, Wayne Smith said that he would pull together and share information that showed where each remaining product in the project was. (July 9th update: "As for Wave 2, I'm working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that's going to take some time.") https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1289210
Roughly 8 months ago was the last time we saw substantial information shared about Wave 2, the late February update showcasing 5 of the tentative sprue piece breakdowns, which was generally well received (including some very civil critique of the Ghost and Lancer). This also accounts for the majority of substantial progress we've seen since production of wave one began in mid 2014.
Obviously these things are a work in progress, with factors beyond anyone's control, but in nearly a year and a half since Wave 1 went from Design into Production and shipping, there has been shockingly little to say about progress towards completion, other than vague assurances that efforts are being made behind the scenes to 'trim the parts count', which is only believable for so long.
So, to ask directly;
1. What is the status of Each of the wave two figures (roughly two dozen, at my count) and the resin components (bases, objective markers, SDF-1)? Even if this can't be addressed 100%, showing off what is known (and expanding from there in the days or weeks as necessary) would be infinitely preferred to waiting months and entire quarters if a few aspects are holding things up.
2. What is the updated delivery target? Even with issues beyond ones control, surely it can narrowed down to some degree. 2016? Gencon 2016? Q2 2016? (Are we looking at a large slip, a medium slip, or a small one?)
3. What *tangible* progress on wave 2 can be shown? Renders, pre-production prototypes, 3D printed sprue piece tests, etc? The August 26th Update stated decisively that no wrongdoing was going on, and that progress was being made on Wave 2, and yet 2 months later all we see week to week is a shrinking reference to the project in the weekly newsletter, and updates that have nothing to do with wave 2 beyond a passing reference to conference calls or unspecified work.
Feel free to answer with a thorough 19 page treatise detailing the above as a Kickstarter Update rather than simply responding here, but despite some people being donkeycaves on the internet (and I'm sure I may be counted among them), I've always considered such statements to be challenges to do better. Prove me wrong. Showcase the alleged thousands of hours being put into this project, the proclaimed blood sweat and tears that have been spent and spilled to get this far, and show that things are in control, and are proceeding as according to plan.
Show that there is, in fact, a plan.
It has been often stated that people have told you to stop giving delivery dates, often preceding a vague delivery date. Most sensible people aren't expecting "Oh it'll be out of the warehouse by April 1st 2016", but simply to see the steps taken to get closer and closer to production and delivery, as the backers were assured would be the case in the Kickstarter campaign page. ("It is our commitment to you, the Kickstarter backers, that we will maintain consistent communication throughout the process. This means regular updates, product photos, and plenty of behind the scenes insight as we complete the creation of RRT").
2014 saw some controversy ("Spartangate"), but as someone who pays far too much attention to this project, it also generally saw constructive criticism and assent more than howling poop flinging in response to the Work In Progress shots that were provided (Glaug Officer's Pod adjustments, etc).
The parts count is being trimmed? Show it! Let us see renders where the 20+ parts for a figure in the wave one style is down to 10+ while retaining posability. Are most of the figures just about done? Show off a couple per update. Switching to one monthly update? Make it count!
For all my critique shared over the years, from asking for the opportunity to pay for Max and Miriya limited edition figures in 2013 to giving considerable benefit of the doubt until it became clear that one had to read between the lines on Updates, my friends and I didn't back for roughly $1,400 US just for gaks and giggles. We backed because we are fans of the IP, and because we were willing to give Palladium a chance to turn over a new leaf.
Wave one being a year late was unfortunate, but at least we felt that we were being shown progress. Wave two has not had that benefit, and it is to the projects detriment. Shutting up some of the loudmouths isn't difficult; like nature, backers abhor a vacuum.
Silence and misdirection (intentional or otherwise) is the biggest problem being faced.
Unless Rick and his ilk are right and there's a financing crisis going on behind the scenes, I suppose, but until shown otherwise I'll politely give the benefit of the doubt that that is not the case.
In the event someone actually reads all the way through here, thank you for your time.
Wording changed to reflect forum vulgarity policies. I was perhaps easier on them than I might've felt, but I wanted to prompt action, rather than purely put them on the defensive with unabashed whining and complaining. I pointed out what they've said they'd do, that they haven't done it, and offered constructively how they might improve.
Shocking nobody, I have not received a response.
Though I believe it was not long after I sent it that they finally abandoned 2015 as a target and moved to Q1 or Q2, but that may have been coincidence.
Also shoutout to Morgan for helping tighten up some of the points and wording!
Isn't Jeffars statement about none of those methods of communication being used just proof that Palladium is not meeting its Kickstarter obligation of communicating with backers?
Stormonu wrote: I know several folks are probably tired of hearing me and Rick beating on the "sue" soapbox, but I want to make a plea to urge folks one last time before the year is out to not take a "wait-and-see" attitude with PB. I feel it is clear the company has completely stagnated on its progress with this KS, and urge you to write, e-mail or otherwise contact palladium that this is not acceptable behavior - whether its requesting a refund, demanding an update, investigating legal action or just poking the bear, please don't let PB write us off with inaction.
I've been firmly in the equal parts biting sarcasm and apathy camp for the past year and a half but.. tell you what... if by the end of Q2/the"relaunch"/Gencon 2016 backers still haven't started getting their wave 2 products, I'll join in on filing complaints against Palladium. At that point, it'll be coming up on three years past their earliest post KS "estimate"/wild ass guess and if they haven't started delivering by that date then all but the most heavily armored White Knight should be ready to call them on their bluff.
The other benefit of waiting until then is that Rick's lawsuit will be at least half a year in already and there will be finally be lots of details about the actual (lack of) progress on Wave 2 by then. Rick, will you be filing your lawsuit that first week of the 2016?
Yknow ive seen several board game KS news articles pop up on gaming sites as of late... perhaps someone well versed with the quill should submit an article to those sites about this? increase public awareness and ruin Palladium/Kevins name a bit more
Ruin? RUIN? Any publicity is good publicity! When the gaming public finds out that Palladium Books actually made it out of the 1990s and is still producing (the exact same thing from the 1990s) the PB warehouse will be emptied by ravenous fans!
Some Palladium fans have questioned why we have been spending so much time and resources on expanding the Robotech® game line, especially when we are so behind on book releases.
A successful launch will enable us to eliminate debt and give Palladium the resources to hire more staff and more freelance talent and do so much more for ALL our game lines.
Please be assured that Palladium is a role-playing game company, first and foremost. RPGs shall always remain our primary business. In fact, the success of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ will enable us to do more of the role-playing game releases you love.
If we can get gamers and Robotech® fans to participate in our Kickstarter, we should be able to garner the funds we need to make this game epic. If we exceed our goals in a big way . . . we can do so much for it and all our product lines.
Be excited. We are. The expanding Robotech® product line means so much to Palladium’s future. Its success will affect and advance all our plans for role-playing releases and other fun products. As always, thank you for your support.
"If we can get gamers and Robotech® fans to participate in our Kickstarter, we should be able to garner the funds we need to make this game epic. "
So, going back to the old scammer well, then?
"Some Palladium fans have questioned why we have been spending so much time and resources on expanding the Robotech® game line, especially when we are so behind on book releases."
See your honor? We're working on Wave Two SOOOOOO HARD that we're angering our REAL customers!
If Peter Griffin is the Spalding Gray of crap, surely Kevin Simbieda is the E.L. James of optimism. Or perhaps the Dan Brown of Martyrdom.
Oh, and when this chimp says "If we can get gamers and Robotech® fans to participate in our Kickstarter, we should be able to garner the funds we need to make this game epic. If we exceed our goals in a big way . . . we can do so much for it and all our product lines.", is he not flat out admitting he's going to raid the Kickstarter money for whatever other projects he feels like doing?
Oh, sorry, whatever projects the fans are demanding, I mean.
Some Palladium fans have questioned why we have been spending so much time and resources on expanding the Robotech® game line, especially when we are so behind on book releases.
Why? I can give them about a million reasons why.... fethers.
Um, Meri, you do realize that he's commenting from a weekly update from 2013, right?
That's not new, it's very, very old, predating even the KS campaign by a couple of months.
I'd also point out that while interesting wording, "Partners" can mean a variety of things, from a generic sort of 'people we are working with' to a legal entity 'Partners' with a lot more weight behind it.
Given their grandiose way of talking in the updates, I'm not prone to taking that with a Capital P just yet, but will presumably be accused of pedantry so I'll just leave that there as a half thought.
A successful launch will enable us to eliminate debt and give Palladium the resources to hire more staff and more freelance talent and do so much more for ALL our game lines.
Apparently $1.4 million wasn't a succesful enough launch to enable them to more staff and freelancers except for one guy months later who was there for less than a year. But, hey, I guess they eliminated that pesky debt apparently by exclusion because they certainly didn't spend the money on staff and making wave 2 rewards.
Mikes comment from the KS comments section about the possible reasons for why this project is where it is are pretty close to rumours I heard back when wave 1 was "in production".
I hadn't heard it specifically stated for the reasons Mike gave, just that they switched to a cheaper production method. It was also rumoured the rule book was amazingly expensive for a rule book.
Um, Meri, you do realize that he's commenting from a weekly update from 2013, right?
That's not new, it's very, very old, predating even the KS campaign by a couple of months.
I'd also point out that while interesting wording, "Partners" can mean a variety of things, from a generic sort of 'people we are working with' to a legal entity 'Partners' with a lot more weight behind it.
Given their grandiose way of talking in the updates, I'm not prone to taking that with a Capital P just yet, but will presumably be accused of pedantry so I'll just leave that there as a half thought.
My business buyers/customers like to call me a partner but in no way are we even equal in terms of standing as a supplier. It's fairly common because it makes the relationship sound a lot nicer than it really is.
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Joyboozer wrote: Mikes comment from the KS comments section about the possible reasons for why this project is where it is are pretty close to rumours I heard back when wave 1 was "in production".
I hadn't heard it specifically stated for the reasons Mike gave, just that they switched to a cheaper production method. It was also rumoured the rule book was amazingly expensive for a rule book.
Why would the rulebook be amazingly expensive for a rulebook though?
Why would the rulebook be amazingly expensive for a rulebook though?
My guess is that it was just more expensive than they are used to as a full color glossy book with better art. They've been exclusively making the same style two column b&w pencil/pen art books for 30 years and probably got a bit of sticker shock when confronted with the cost of making a modern style book.
Forar wrote: Um, Meri, you do realize that he's commenting from a weekly update from 2013, right?
No, I didn't.
Still, my most important point stands. Looks like he was flat out admitting that, yes, he was going to use the KS money for other projects.
Well, it's not hard to have the copypasta kind of blend into each other and not know new from old from very old. It was only some of the "future tense" of the statements that made me take a second look at the URL and see it was a couple months before the KS.
And yes, the admission that he was intending to pay down debt and work on other game lines is pretty WTF. Neither were mentioned as part of the KS goals, and neither I think is legal under the KS T&C. I find it ironic that about 18 months ago, several people were questioning whether this kind of stuff had happened, and the idea was dismissed as irrational, and here Kevin is literally stating it was a goal, three months before the KS launched.
As for the employment situation, yeah Jeff was the first, and most significant hire, and we all know how that ended (if not the exacting specifics). But wasn't there a new one (I wanna say Chuck Walton, does that sound right?) who was mentioned as taking over certain roles, had a couple of posts and then like Jeff, appeared to not want to deal with the public. There's also the oft mentioned Carmen, who both seems to be someone of note, but also not. With the exception of Kevin, Wayne, and occasionally Alex, everyone else seems to be a Shrodinger's employee.
I'm always disappointed when there is actual photographic evidence of Palladium Books employees existing, the idea of one day going to an open house or convention and seeing Kevin rush off to another room, or duck behind a desk only to reappear in disguise claiming to be so one else always makes me laugh.
Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.
evilsmurf wrote: Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.
No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....
No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....
Could be the reason they never released those rules, officially.
Perhaps I'm giving this a more charitable read than they deserve, but this here;
3. The success of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ could be huge for Palladium Books as a company. A successful launch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is the final piece of the puzzle to make Palladium Books® strong again. A successful launch will enable us to eliminate debt and give Palladium the resources to hire more staff and more freelance talent and do so much more for ALL our game lines.
sounds like they're saying that RRT being successful will let them pay down debt, not that the KS campaign would.
Now, if I wanted to play Rules Lawyer, one could point out that KS funds ARE allowed to be used for operational costs, so even if they didn't originally plan to use the funds to pay down debt, they could use the funds to pay for existing costs, and woah, look they have extra money in the budget, might as well pay down some debt, what with money being a fungible resource. What isn't being used to pay for A can now be aimed at B.
Still, the statement in full reads more like "hey if this is successful we'll be rolling in it!" than "boy I can't wait to take KS funds and use them on non-KS things".
Though I am obviously willing to recognize that could have been the case anyway, as originally intended or because their hand was forced.
It's fuzzy.
I'm not accusing them of anything, I'm just pointing out that prior to the KS they wrote what could be taken as admission that they planned on using the funds for other things as well as the KS.
It's up to any subsequent lawsuit to determine if that is true.
I think the bigger point to take from that is "IF that was all the good that was going to come PB's way, what is the situation for them now after the unholy gak-up that the KS turned out to be?"
I can't see them being able to make a profit of the KS for many years. Even if they banked the unused portion of the funds, the interest on that is not going to pay for the increased costs from splitting shipping, delays, and what must be multiple revisions of remaining rewards.
It's more likely that they will end up worse off after this, but that will not worry me. I now have my SDF-1 [bigger, better, more detailed than PB's efforts stand much of a chance of being] and a Robotech Changer Vexar model as a good sized Skull 1. Who knows, I may even be able to get my hands on the trainer variant so I can make them both into a diorama.
But I positively WON'T worry about wave 2 [although I may well look into a complaint here in Britain.] and I certainly won't be getting the VF box I wanted to try 'real world' and 'manga style' paint jobs on them. PB wouldn't get a wooden nickel from me in future.
evilsmurf wrote: Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.
No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....
Did Kevin seemed surprised about that "thank you"? I don't have my Powers Unlimited books anymore (sold them years ago) but IIRC at least in Villains Unlimited others were credited individually for certain powers but that was Kevin Siembieda as author and not Carmen.
I had heard about his board game but no one ever posted pictures to my knowledge so I can't comment about that (and never played Talisman anyways). IIRC, that was the same Open House though that Kevin took his super secret you didn't know you were voting during a casual chat with him "poll" and came up with 99% of rifts fans being happy with the rifts rules.
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n815e wrote: It's fuzzy.
I'm not accusing them of anything, I'm just pointing out that prior to the KS they wrote what could be taken as admission that they planned on using the funds for other things as well as the KS.
It's up to any subsequent lawsuit to determine if that is true.
In my decided NOT a lawyer but I watch Judge Judy the Bully occasionally view, he could claim SOME of the day to day operating costs of his business from lawn care to the electric bill to payroll but it would have to be commensurate with the percentage of time he spends on RRPGT overall. I could however see a company that is always on the edge of the next crisis of treachery using the big Robotech fund to just much more than that real percentage despite not actually putting in the proportionate amount of work daily (as evidenced by ZERO public progress on wave two rewards fulfilled in the past year).
Either way, Rick will start peeling back the layers on the onion of deceit in just a few weeks when he files his oft mentioned and delayed lawsuit so we'll know soon enough.
evilsmurf wrote: Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.
No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....
You may have very narrowly got those rules axed for pointing that out.
I suspect Kevin can barely tolerate ideas from those "close to him" (or receiving his guidance) never mind another step or two removed.
Either way, Rick will start peeling back the layers on the onion of deceit in just a few weeks when he files his oft mentioned and delayed lawsuit so we'll know soon enough.
evilsmurf wrote: Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.
No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....
Interesting, I wonder how this applies to the original rules having to be completely rewritten...
evilsmurf wrote: Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.
No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....
You may have very narrowly got those rules axed for pointing that out.
I suspect Kevin can barely tolerate ideas from those "close to him" (or receiving his guidance) never mind another step or two removed.
I was polite when I pointed it out and actually was only annoyed. I only asked for recognition for working them up. Then to see the "preview" that Carmen wrote up and had his signature on and like 80% or more was word for word what I had done with some help from the great guys on the FB page, that needed to be pointed out. I did so and from what I understand Kevin was surprised and had Carmen apologize for in a group where we discussed those and other rules. That's it. Carmen may have made a mistake, maybe not, but I felt it needed to be pointed out, so I did.
Even if I never see a dime back, I would still be happy knowing that he didn't have my money either. Rater than being stolen it would go to one standing up for a righteous cause
evilsmurf wrote: Carmen and Kevin are buddies. Carmen wrote the Powers Unlimited books which outright copied powers written by others on the forums. He then tried to claim he never looks at whats on the forums despite at least two powers being word for word copies. He also once showed the Rifts board game he had created.. which was basically a copy of the Talisman game.
No to mention the conventional rules that he almost passed off as his own creation.......until I sent an email thanking Kevin for using most of what the FB group came up with for the conventional stuff.....
Interesting, I wonder how this applies to the original rules having to be completely rewritten...
When Carmen changed a few things, I found some horrible inbalances in points. 4 A-10's for example cost as much as a squadron of 2 Tomahawks and 2 Defenders. I ran that through my cost calcs and said no way. I did a re-write but I did not take in to account the sheer number of minis and actual dollar cost to build a squadron. I was asked to make some changes. I did and sent it to PB. I think it took me 2 weeks to make all the changes since I made squadrons smaller and redid all the cards. Since I sent cards and not text stats it was confusing to them since they could not understand them (another sure sign of them not really knowing the rules at all).
I think the initial hopes for sales drooped as the sales were not looking that good. Problem was they rushed to present something that was half-finished, or rather, had not been discussed by a group but only by two people as far as I knew. Then I put a hold on it since I wanted it down right.
Later, it looked like the sales had slumped since the promised rules were not made a priority and not reviewed quickly so they could be released. The lack of rules cause sales to slump. The lack of sales caused the desire of PB to do things quickly to slump and whammo....no progress and extreme frustration on my part.
Thankfully in the end, Jaymz said screw it and posted the rules up for everyone. Too late to effect sales since everyone can buy just about everything directly from GHQ for a cheaper price. If PB stopped seeing pure dollars and saw that this would have been a good will project to pump up RRT they could have let GHQ sell the minis and simply made some cards and sold those online for a small price and still made some $. In fact that is what I had suggested. Instead this became another nail in the coffin....
And now I'm completely swapped over to writing, building and playtesting my Skirmish version of RRT.
I've been watching this thread (and the previous one) play out over the course of many many pages, and i've just got to say that this is almost as engaging as watching the original robotech saga. Action, suspense, drama, humour, cool looking mecha. Although this is actually happening in real life, so i hope it works out for everyone. My advice - the longer you wait to reclaim your money, the less chance you'll ever see it again. I got burned by a business who kept giving me delays and excuses right up until the paypal limit expired, then i got silence. Its been what, over 2 years now? Sometimes acting in good faith and being willing to accept 'unforeseen/unfortunate' circumstances will just get you burned. Good luck.
Torga_DW wrote: I've been watching this thread (and the previous one) play out over the course of many many pages, and i've just got to say that this is almost as engaging as watching the original robotech saga. Action, suspense, drama, humour, cool looking mecha. Although this is actually happening in real life, so i hope it works out for everyone. My advice - the longer you wait to reclaim your money, the less chance you'll ever see it again. I got burned by a business who kept giving me delays and excuses right up until the paypal limit expired, then i got silence. Its been what, over 2 years now? Sometimes acting in good faith and being willing to accept 'unforeseen/unfortunate' circumstances will just get you burned. Good luck.
It's definitely an entertaining run, especially for those not financially tied to the project, or willing to write off their pledge in exchange for the LOL's.
As for the reclamation prospects, that's only going to happen for a small number of backers. Getting money back via established means (chargeback on Credit Cards for example) are well past the typical 60/90/120 day limit they usually offer. Some people have had luck going beyond that, with a particularly friendly bank, but most will disallow it. It's currently been 2 1/4 years since people got charged by the Pledge Manager, and it's over 2 1/2 if you didn't add to your order from the initial campaign.
The only way I can see anyone recovering funds, is if they do personal individual complaints/demands/suits (and those can be expensive and aren't guaranteed success). People hoping for some kind of class action that they can get in on without much work/expenditure are going to get pennies on the dollar if they get anything. While I don't think PB are necessarily bankrupt, or even don't have enough to actually manufacture Wave 2, I have significant doubt that after other creditors are factored in, they are incredibly unlikely to have the funds to refund backers the full amount. And if the individual suits are successful, and precedent on the issue is set, it'll set off a run, and a long slide into bankruptcy. Because beyond a few people who will write off their pledge for the sake of the company, noone wants to be left without a chair when the music stops.
As an example of what I mean, re costs vs refund, take the MACII Monster. Numbers used may not reflect reality, and are used for explanation purposes only.
Say on average just over half the backers bought one. Some bought multiples, some bought one, some bought none. So, 3000 Monsters for backer fulfillment.
Let's say the Monster is 3 sprues, and each sprue is $20K. And manufacturing and shipping of those sprues is another $20K. And then another $10K for shipping to backers (as part of a larger order. So, that's $90K for expenditure.
Refunding backers would cost ~$110-$120K. So that's $20K-$30K loss by offering a refund. Apply that across all of the outstanding items, and take into account the inability to make more for much less (ie, the first 3000 Monsters cost $90K, the second 3000 will only cost $20K), and PB offering refunds at this stage seems like a non-starter.
Are you planning on serving them with your lawsuit there if they keep ducking your for the months before? If you serve them at adepticon, get it on video and post it along with what your discovery phase reveals. We've been waiting all of 2015 for you to unleash your roaring caged legal beast.
Was just reviewing a few things about kickstarters.
First I started here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter Great quote here:
"Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project? Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill."
ANYWAY I look at these kinds of articles to keep me from blowing my top when I hear these tired statements:
"Kickstarter is not a store!" - No, it is a place where people hock their stuff and we are expected to go after them if it goes bad.
"You are investing in a dream!" - We help it along but the FTC has proven that "rewards" are not an optional thing to deliver.
"You are lucky if you get anything at all!" - Lucky no, the creators hope we think that, there are some truly risky things to back but PB is not some guy working out of his garage... though it is really looking like it. Words like "best effort" seem to be lost and being well past the initial delivery date and being progressively more vague on finish date will run them afoul of the new FTC ammendments.
I just cannot understand how it is expected that out of the goodness of our heart we give our money for a project with the "expectation" we may not see a single thing out of it.
A "creator" assumes little risk as long as a nebulous "best effort" is proven.
Then people gleefully point out when things fail that we are suckers for backing things with no guarantee.
I maintain that if some kind of checks and balances are not maintained I have no good reason to back any kickstarter ever again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: GAH! the dreaded double post!
Are you planning on serving them with your lawsuit there if they keep ducking your for the months before? If you serve them at adepticon, get it on video and post it along with what your discovery phase reveals. We've been waiting all of 2015 for you to unleash your roaring caged legal beast.
being on the sponsor page doesn't mean anything , it means they donated something to the gift bag, but as it goes do a search of events and their name doesn't even show up.
From the correspondence I got from Adepticon when I asked earlier this week, 1) Submissions for events were finalized on October 2nd, 2) Palladium have no events listed, and 3) Palladium are in the vendor hall, and may run demos there.
So they at least made the effort to show up for the money making side of things. But failed to do, or get someone else to do, the community building side of things.
Morgan Vening wrote: The only way I can see anyone recovering funds, is if they do personal individual complaints/demands/suits (and those can be expensive and aren't guaranteed success). People hoping for some kind of class action that they can get in on without much work/expenditure are going to get pennies on the dollar if they get anything. While I don't think PB are necessarily bankrupt, or even don't have enough to actually manufacture Wave 2, I have significant doubt that after other creditors are factored in, they are incredibly unlikely to have the funds to refund backers the full amount. And if the individual suits are successful, and precedent on the issue is set, it'll set off a run, and a long slide into bankruptcy. Because beyond a few people who will write off their pledge for the sake of the company, noone wants to be left without a chair when the music stops..
A class action could work out in PBs favor. Many class actions allow actual product or service to be offered to the class in lieu of cash payments (not that the non-exemplars get much anyway), such as the recent Sony class actions.
So a successful class action may look at 200K+ to the lead attorneys, tens of thousands to the exemplars.. .and then everyone else gets a choice of $5, a RTT starter or a Rifter.
Palladium seems illiquid enough that even a (low) total of 400-500K cash award could hurt them, but they would get to liquidate (and write off) their non selling product and remove cause of action from the vast majority of backers.
In contrast the Rick legal tsunami could maybe cost them 25K or so, but if its successful and more and more backers follow that route it would be death by a thousand cuts. Though I suppose he could always get a court order compelling manufacture of wave 2...
The real harm to PB would be a regulator getting involved & brining suit. While on the back end to us backers the results will be on par with a class action, a regulator could easily tack on a million or more in fines and the possibility of actual criminal penalties rather than just civil.
Those are really interesting, and they do tend to cover pre-orders (the whole "listed date, or now + 30"). It's unclear as yet as to if Kickstarter falls into that category yet, from a legal perspective.
The next time someone contacts the BBB or FTC or AG, they should probably ask as part of the request for refund, something like "If no refund is available at this time, can a date be supplied that will constitute a 'time stated' under section I of the "Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Merchandise" Rule, or should the 30 days for no time stated be counted as of receipt of this request?"
One of the most frustrating things is PB continuing to slide the release date, with zero accountability and seemingly no expectation of having to work on stuff, especially given the release dates are so unrealistic. At no point in the last year plus, have I believed there was any chance of them accomplishing a stated release date. Not October 2014 when stated in January 2014, not End of 2015 when stated in April, not EoQ1 2016 when stated in July, and not EoQ2 2016 when stated recently. Heck, even the vagueness of sometime in 2016 I consider at best "possible but unlikely".
More than anything, forcing PB to have to stick to a specific date or be required (by that rule) to issue refunds, will either get people their money back, or force PB to give a REALISTIC date, and actually have a deadline to complete by, without going off on flights of fancy to do other stuff.
Gencon 2017?
Gencon 2020?
I am looking at the section where if the revised date is unsuitable a refund is to be given.
But PB is very clear on "NO REFUNDS!" but as FTC document states in it's objectives is for a refund to be given if the shipping date is not agreeable.
The FTC stance is that PB is on the hook for the rewards so all that is left is a form of "statute of limitations" but a bit in reverse: How long can they claim they SHALL ship until they are afoul of some limit?
A decade?
Talizvar wrote: Gencon 2017?
Gencon 2020?
I am looking at the section where if the revised date is unsuitable a refund is to be given.
But PB is very clear on "NO REFUNDS!" but as FTC document states in it's objectives is for a refund to be given if the shipping date is not agreeable.
The FTC stance is that PB is on the hook for the rewards so all that is left is a form of "statute of limitations" but a bit in reverse: How long can they claim they SHALL ship until they are afoul of some limit?
A decade?
actually they are afoul, they were 30 days after December 13 2013, now people have ti file with the FTC if they want their money refunded or a lawsuit, but sitting on their rears will get nothing done and waiting too long will leave them with nothing since PB will have nothing left after the FTC gets done with them and refunds all those who filed with them.
actually they are afoul, they were 30 days after December 13 2013, now people have ti file with the FTC if they want their money refunded or a lawsuit, but sitting on their rears will get nothing done and waiting too long will leave them with nothing since PB will have nothing left after the FTC gets done with them and refunds all those who filed with them.
I agree that folks like me who are waiting will be most at risk of getting nothing. I'm counting on the pathfinders like yourself as the "ringleader" to pave the way with your lawsuit coming up in just a few weeks.
Talizvar wrote: Gencon 2017?
Gencon 2020?
I am looking at the section where if the revised date is unsuitable a refund is to be given.
But PB is very clear on "NO REFUNDS!" but as FTC document states in it's objectives is for a refund to be given if the shipping date is not agreeable.
The FTC stance is that PB is on the hook for the rewards so all that is left is a form of "statute of limitations" but a bit in reverse: How long can they claim they SHALL ship until they are afoul of some limit?
A decade?
Gencon 2017, Gencon 2020, at least people would have a date, rather than the current nebulous "pregnancy* of soon".
* Because each release date seems to be 9 months from the date of announcement.
Might be worth adding "If the responding date of completion exceeds the statute of limitations, what happens then?". The FTC should have an answer there, and I'd expect it to be that the limitation won't start until after the passing of the date of completion.
Again, it won't be a good answer, but it'd pin down PB so they can't continue to weasle further into the future, as they have for the last 18 months. And if they do give some kind of ambit bulldrek claim like Gencon 2020, they get to be harangued publicly for that too. Basically, it forces them to have to look at what they can do, and give a realistic timetable. And that's really the first step. That's assuming the FTC don't see an ambit claim and turn around and go "Sorry, not good enough, give a more realistic one, or start issuing refunds to those who want it".
Asterios wrote: actually they are afoul, they were 30 days after December 13 2013, now people have ti file with the FTC if they want their money refunded or a lawsuit, but sitting on their rears will get nothing done and waiting too long will leave them with nothing since PB will have nothing left after the FTC gets done with them and refunds all those who filed with them.
Would I be a bad person if I feel happy my money is lost to the FTC if PB is found guilty?
Write it off as "public service" money to help pay those who are willing to take the time to set PB's customer service practices on fire.
While you are looking around I am still unsure how a Canadian can jump on that bandwagon since my government seems clueless.
So if there is room to "file" with the FTC I am game, probably not near as dry and useless as the BBB claims.
Yep, it is a crime to take someone's money and keep it for yourself without delivering a product. I would rather see my funds in the pockets of those who hold the evildoers accountable than to see the evildoers use it to buy cars, pay their bills, renovate their homes, etc.
I have seen KS campaigns fail that used all their money and could not deliver a product. Most of those had great communication, were honest, and literally failed due to scale and lack of funds. This is a different story. PB raised a ton of funds. They still have the funds (or used them personally and not for the project). They just stopped producing what we paid for and stopped communication. This shows intent... this shows a theft of a large sum of money from many different jurisdictions and countries... this means federal felonious crime.
Dust had a failed campaign that was similar, but lawsuits are harder as Dust Studios is in China. They still delivered everything but the freebies that were promised, PB hasn't even delivered all that was paid for.
Asterios wrote: actually they are afoul, they were 30 days after December 13 2013, now people have ti file with the FTC if they want their money refunded or a lawsuit, but sitting on their rears will get nothing done and waiting too long will leave them with nothing since PB will have nothing left after the FTC gets done with them and refunds all those who filed with them.
Would I be a bad person if I feel happy my money is lost to the FTC if PB is found guilty?
Write it off as "public service" money to help pay those who are willing to take the time to set PB's customer service practices on fire.
While you are looking around I am still unsure how a Canadian can jump on that bandwagon since my government seems clueless.
So if there is room to "file" with the FTC I am game, probably not near as dry and useless as the BBB claims.
like I said i'm not in it for the money since all I have missing is like $120 so if the FTC takes the reigns no reason for me to do a suit, but have said that from the start that if the AG or FTC step in my part is done. I want PB held accountable above all else.
but like I said thats if either the AG or the FTC step up.
you can file with the FTC does not matter what country you are in, as long as the company is in the USA.
Well, I sort of worked on some Robotech stuff this past week... for the Halo ship game. I kept the shiny overcoat on the models as a nod to the usual covenant paint scheme but I hope they resemble a slightly different misguided alien armada out to destroy earth! More pics and me pontificating at my blog sig link for those interested.
I just spent the passed two days sitting in a house that was imitating an island. I watched both my cars, both my tractors, all my chickens, and 16 acres of my godscursed property go from being fields to being a lake and I can tell you it didn't make me as upset as I still am at PB not delivering wave 2. Do you know why? Because I'll get new chickens come spring, they'll lay eggs in the summer, my insurance is going to cover the repairs on my cars, my tractors I'll be able to salvage with some time and my pile o' greenhouse can be torn down and rebuilt.
But getting this bloody wave 2 delivered is worse than being stuck in a flood.
Any other PNWers in here gonna give me an a'men?
The upside is that I packed in a week of firewood, had 2 weeks of water stores, 6 months of food, and 38 gallons of wine as well as tons of board games to keep me and my kid occupied. So...it wasn't all bad.
@darkminstrel: Funny how it is easier to accept an act of god than an act of a control freak. I think it says more about your temperament. Oh yeah: amen.
We can only hope the geese on their property turn on them.
I'm in Salem. Fortunately, I'm also at the top of a hill (more or less) so if I'm flooding, it'll be because a few tens of thousands of people are already under water.
@darkminstrel - I feel for you, hope everything turns out okay.
It does remind me, though, of something that happened back in '05 when Katrina came through our area. Luckily for our house, we only lost power for a week, and my parents had to stay with us until we could repair their house. God, was it hot, no job to go to (my workplace was out of power as well), no gas to go anywhere and the stories of nearby lootings & shootings had me up at night with a weapon at hand during the time.
In all the confusion & stress in those days after Katrina, my subscription to Dungeon magazine failed to show up (our mail came from the New Orleans hub...). When we finally got power back and things started settling back down, I sent a short e-mail to Paizo, requesting a replacement; I was even willing to pay for the copy if need be.
Plop. Three days later, a package shows up on my doorstep. Not only does it contain a (signed) replacement, but there's like $300 in RPGs as a "care package" to replace anything else I might have lost. I about wept at the thought of them doing that without prompting. THAT is customer service.
I cannot fathom Palladium ever doing near something as noble as that, and that they can't even be bothered to deliver things I paid for over two years ago is an absolute insult.
Sorry to hear that Darkminstrel. I'm in Everett and know what kind of rain we've been getting. I'm glad your family is OK.
In other news my wife was just laid off. I am thinking of selling all my Robotech stuff (maybe Dreadball too) and filing with the WAAG. Still processing it all.
Hey, guys, thank you for the well wishes. We were lucky due to many factors and I can now walk outside without swimming. Living rural means you have to prepare for this sort of thing and I was ahead of the flood by many, many hours. We ate hot food, had light, a warm fire, and we even played some SW:A by candle-light. It's clean up time though since the waters brought upriver trash by the truck load, but we are safe and have reliable power and running water. Almost back to normal.
Here, have some pics that were taken a couple hours before the high point of the crest.
darkminstrel wrote: Hey, guys, thank you for the well wishes. We were lucky due to many factors and I can now walk outside without swimming. Living rural means you have to prepare for this sort of thing and I was ahead of the flood by many, many hours. We ate hot food, had light, a warm fire, and we even played some SW:A by candle-light. It's clean up time though since the waters brought upriver trash by the truck load, but we are safe and have reliable power and running water. Almost back to normal.
Here, have some pics that were taken a couple hours before the high point of the crest.
In other news, I asked for and received via paypal a refund for the Mekton Zero KS, which was another one that has been... not exactly well managed. So that leaves this one ^_^
Hi, everyone. I just wanted to let you know you are far from forgotten. Things are moving on Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two, as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering. For one, if some of the things we are exploring don’t pan out, we don’t want you to be disappointed. And it seems like every little while, the things we are considering doing get changed for one reason or another.
I can tell you, we want to make sure the rest of the Kickstarter items and future Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product are something special and the best they can be, especially after the long delays in getting Wave Two into your hands. We are examining many different possibilities, but until we nail down the final details, we can’t say much yet. We’ll try to provide some more insight on this next week. But we are exploring many things we know you will enjoy. This includes a number of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out.
Stormonu wrote: On a slightly different, but related note, did the bones CAV figures ever get delivered? If so, are they any good - no floppy/bent weapons and such?
Not as of yet. They're apparently very close to shipping. Weeks, months maybe. Unlikely to be quarters.
On an ON topic note, PB did a Kickstarter Update after literally nine weeks to say "Yup, updating to say we can't talk about anything."
A Quick Note from Kevin
Hi, everyone. I just wanted to let you know you are far from forgotten. Things are moving on Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two, as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering. For one, if some of the things we are exploring don’t pan out, we don’t want you to be disappointed. And it seems like every little while, the things we are considering doing get changed for one reason or another.
I can tell you, we want to make sure the rest of the Kickstarter items and future Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product are something special and the best they can be, especially after the long delays in getting Wave Two into your hands. We are examining many different possibilities, but until we nail down the final details, we can’t say much yet. We’ll try to provide some more insight on this next week. But we are exploring many things we know you will enjoy. This includes a number of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out.
That's it. That's all they have to show for the last 9 weeks. Exclude the FAQ and the advertising of cardboard cutouts for stuff people already have, and the last INFORMATIVE update was 15 weeks ago. And even that wasn't that informative. But it does give them the capacity to respond to BBB/AG requests with "well, we updated them on December 12th!". Cause that's the only reason for publishing this non-event.
There's several people that 'liked' this update as of this writing. Either these people are looking at this as performance art, or are related to PB staff. Because otherwise I can't explain it.
After writing the Kickstarter powers-that-be earlier today and asking them if PB was in breach of TOS for not posting any updates on the project page we have received....A NEW NON-UPDATE! wooo!
Hold up! In the email response from KS that I got it was stated that:
"While we're disheartened that they have not yet updated backers on the status of their project, we're unable to force them to do so — it's the creator's responsibility to communicate and complete the project as promised."
Is communication with backers not a part of the TOS?
Assuming PB is actually "working" to get Wave 2 out, I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that they may be changing manufacturers.
Which may not be a great thing to do, depending on contract, and technicals like whether the dies from Wave 1 can work with the equipment that the potentially new manufacturer has.
It may work out in the long run but well in the first place I'm not sure there is a long run for this game.
And no, I'm not buying the "nothing we can update on legally" crap. A lot of other KS goes through the same process and they update on stuff. More updated CAD, test shots, painted prototype, that kind of thing.
..And they try and drop a "time-out" non-update on the kickstarter.
Last straw from me, so I went ahead and filed with the FTC.
---------------------
"Palladium Books funded a Kickstarter campaign called Robotech RPG Tactics that completed on May 20th, 2013, garnering in excess of $1,442,312. At that time, they claimed they were "98% done" with an estimated delivery date of December 2013. As time passed, that delivery date continued to slip until they decided to break delivery into two waves. Wave 1, which comprised 59.62% of the base items (less add-ons) was delivered on Oct 9, 2014. The last significant (partial) progress report on Wave 2 work was Feb 28th, 2015. Since that time, despite promises to keep us informed, Palladium has refused to update its backers on the progress of the Kickstarter, using phrases such as "we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering" ("A Quick Note from Kevin" RRT update on Kickstarter.com, Dec 11, 2015) or vague references to phone calls with no details of what was discussed (Palladium Books Weekly Newsletter, Oct 30, 2015). As time has progressed beyond the delivery of Wave 1, Palladium Books has continued to move back their estimated shipping date, with the latest estimate being Quarter 2 of 2016. As per FTC regulations Title 16 → Chapter I → Subchapter D → Part 435 §435.2 Mail, Internet, or telephone order sales, I have rejected any delivery date beyond December 31, 2015 and have requested a refund of the remaining portion of the unfulfilled kickstarter, which I have estimated at $166.51 (40.37% of the base pledge, plus $110 in specific add-ons). I have recieved no response from Palladium books on this request and have previously been told that they will not issue refunds."
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also get the impression the "battle cry" has gone out on the FotM for the fans of Palladium to throw their support onto the latest KS non-update page to shout down the "filthy haterz".
Stormonu wrote: ..And they try and drop a "time-out" non-update on the kickstarter.
Last straw from me, so I went ahead and filed with the FTC.
---------------------
"Palladium Books funded a Kickstarter campaign called Robotech RPG Tactics that completed on May 20th, 2013, garnering in excess of $1,442,312. At that time, they claimed they were "98% done" with an estimated delivery date of December 2013. As time passed, that delivery date continued to slip until they decided to break delivery into two waves. Wave 1, which comprised 59.62% of the base items (less add-ons) was delivered on Oct 9, 2014. The last significant (partial) progress report on Wave 2 work was Feb 28th, 2015. Since that time, despite promises to keep us informed, Palladium has refused to update its backers on the progress of the Kickstarter, using phrases such as "we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering" ("A Quick Note from Kevin" RRT update on Kickstarter.com, Dec 11, 2015) or vague references to phone calls with no details of what was discussed (Palladium Books Weekly Newsletter, Oct 30, 2015). As time has progressed beyond the delivery of Wave 1, Palladium Books has continued to move back their estimated shipping date, with the latest estimate being Quarter 2 of 2016. As per FTC regulations Title 16 → Chapter I → Subchapter D → Part 435 §435.2 Mail, Internet, or telephone order sales, I have rejected any delivery date beyond December 31, 2015 and have requested a refund of the remaining portion of the unfulfilled kickstarter, which I have estimated at $166.51 (40.37% of the base pledge, plus $110 in specific add-ons). I have recieved no response from Palladium books on this request and have previously been told that they will not issue refunds."
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also get the impression the "battle cry" has gone out on the FotM for the fans of Palladium to throw their support onto the latest KS non-update page to shout down the "filthy haterz".
The update that covers the End of Year date you are using is Update 176, May 24rd. "Our focus for the next few months is going to be heavily on Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We want to see RRT Wave Two released by the end of the year, but we have a number of other things coming sooner that we think will please our Robotech® Kickstarter backers and all our supporters very much. Things that are being made here in the US and will not take much time away from our energy to get Wave Two into your hands."
Sure, it's not a firm date, but it specifies a commitment to do so, as well as a commitment to focus on doing so. If that's an issue for anyone, you can always resort to the date in Update 128, January 31 2014, where they were much less vague. The only vagueness in the statement is whether it can ship early or not, the rest is pretty definitive.
"WAVE TWO Kickstarter Fullfillment – Fall, 2014 – The balance of ALL the remaining Kickstarter items should ship by October The Kickstarter exclusives and EVERYTHING else that was part of the Kickstarter will ship in the Fall, probably September or October. We actually hope to ship much sooner, but we can NOT promise that. Obviously, we would love to have ALL the remaining Wave Two product in time for Gen Con Indy ourselves, and that is what we are working toward, but that seems quite unlikely. After Wave Two items have been sent to Kickstarter supporters, we will ship the next wave of retail products to distributors."
So if they won't accept December 2015, have them beholden to Fall 2014. Which if Google is right, was December 20th, 2014.
I also get the impression the "battle cry" has gone out on the FotM for the fans of Palladium to throw their support onto the latest KS non-update page to shout down the "filthy haterz".
They got an uphill battle on that one, the latest update has brought out a whole new line of Haterz of PB, also don't forget to file with the Michigan AG don't just bring the pain to PB, pile it on and drown them in it.
I also get the impression the "battle cry" has gone out on the FotM for the fans of Palladium to throw their support onto the latest KS non-update page to shout down the "filthy haterz".
They got an uphill battle on that one, the latest update has brought out a whole new line of Haterz of PB, also don't forget to file with the Michigan AG don't just bring the pain to PB, pile it on and drown them in it.
Anything we do will just be little waves gently lapping the shore after Rick's Tsunami hits Palladium as promised in a few weeks.
Rick has publicly given Palladium (and every backer) hundreds of warnings over the last year and a half to potentially avoid this to no avail. Hundreds of warnings with no action (on the part of palladium)! I suspect he and his pro bono legal team have been working hard behind the scenes on his legal onslaught. For obvious reasons, he can't discuss the legal groundwork in detail but I suspect that he has been exploring various avenues that he can't discuss in case they don't work out. We just need to have faith in his ideal filing date of very early Q1 2016 and await the results.
Hi, everyone. I just wanted to let you know you are far from forgotten. Things are moving on Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two, as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering. For one, if some of the things we are exploring don’t pan out, we don’t want you to be disappointed. And it seems like every little while, the things we are considering doing get changed for one reason or another.
I can tell you, we want to make sure the rest of the Kickstarter items and future Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product are something special and the best they can be, especially after the long delays in getting Wave Two into your hands. We are examining many different possibilities, but until we nail down the final details, we can’t say much yet. We’ll try to provide some more insight on this next week. But we are exploring many things we know you will enjoy. This includes a number of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out.
Joy! More vauge promises of progress (that they won't show) and references to work (that they won't discuss) followed up with the future wishy washy "try" to post something meaningful at a future date. So.. basically the same thing we've gotten since February (the last REAL update about wave 2 rewards). In the past 10 months since that last real pertinent and useful (at the time.. obviously a pile of crap retroactively) update, the release date has pushed back 16 months. Progress... Palladium styleTM!
Really aiming for the stars on that one. Mostly a rearranged copy/paste from the Nov 20th weekly newsletter, at least assuming Marnie Jefferson's analysis on their FB page is accurate.
"But we are exploring many things we know you will enjoy."
No. Bad. Stop telling us how we're going to feel about things. We're all adults here, and are happy to give our opinions, as we would if you'd fething show us any indication you're not just wasting our time.
It's a small nitpick, admittedly, but I've been noticing this about Kevin for years now, and it remains an annoying writing tick/mental need of his to TELL people how they feel or are going to feel about things.
This is a recent post by Jeff NMI Ruiz. on another kickstarter.
I agree with the Roach here. Some sort of semi-regularly posting schedule would be nice. "Here is a sample art piece for this" "Here is sample NPC" "Received some new art and stuff" "etc....
Oct 2 2015 on #10: from the project The Daring Comics RPG (Powered by FATE)
warboss wrote: Anything we do will just be little waves gently lapping the shore after Rick's Tsunami hits Palladium as promised in a few weeks.
Rick has publicly given Palladium (and every backer) hundreds of warnings over the last year and a half to potentially avoid this to no avail. Hundreds of warnings with no action (on the part of palladium)! I suspect he and his pro bono legal team have been working hard behind the scenes on his legal onslaught. For obvious reasons, he can't discuss the legal groundwork in detail but I suspect that he has been exploring various avenues that he can't discuss in case they don't work out. We just need to have faith in his ideal filing date of very early Q1 2016 and await the results.
Good point.
I cannot wait for this Legal Tsunami to land on PB's doorstep - EARLY January 2016!
Do you guys think with the rerelease of the game that they'll start offering the Con and KS exclusives through retailers like CSI as well? Of course, it'll have some serious conditions like only being available on odd numbered days to keep it exclusive to con goers and backers in that case because we know how much Palladium values us. If getting the pee out of the pool after the fact doesn't work as well as palladium hopes with the rerelease, that seems like it would be the next step to enhance sales of existing slow moving stock.
Checking in on CSI remains highly entertaining, if just because their stock never seems to move.
That said, it actually has! They still have the 3 lonely Spartan/Phalanx packs sitting there, but the Artillery Pod listing has dropped from 13 boxes to 11!
2 expansions (from the more highly sought after non-core pair that is) sold! Movement! Hype! Buzz!
Just had a thought... what if the reason Palladium doesn't want to discuss the plans is because they're planning on changing the scale for the rerelease? Obviously this would fly in the face of how the actual hail mary pass distraction vote went with the bumping up in scale they wanted getting by far the least amount of votes. I could see them throwing 5,000+ backers and who knows how many retail copy owners (both stores and gamers) under the bus to "reboot" the scale after the fact and redo the parts layout for the most important minis at the same time.
Yes, photos of the rifts boardgame were posted online by one of the visitors to the Open House where Carmen was demoing 'his' game. As soon as we saw the pictures of the board we instantly recognized the game he had copied. Talisman has quite a distinctive board.
Merijeek wrote: Unless changing the scale would make it cheaper or easier (and I don't see why it would) I can't see why they would do it.
Doing Wave 2 in half-scale restic would be cheaper than matching scale styrene. It would be a gakky thing to do, but that hasn't stopped Kevin to date.
evilsmurf wrote:Yes, photos of the rifts boardgame were posted online by one of the visitors to the Open House where Carmen was demoing 'his' game. As soon as we saw the pictures of the board we instantly recognized the game he had copied. Talisman has quite a distinctive board.
I guess that explains why we haven't seen Carmen's work in print much after apparently the Heroes Unlimited incident... both with the board game and the conventional rules. That's apparently the kind of staff that they prefer to keep on instead of getting rid of and/or hiring fresh.
Merijeek wrote:Unless changing the scale would make it cheaper or easier (and I don't see why it would) I can't see why they would do it.
Of course having no reason, and being a completely idiotic move would actually make it more likely for PB to do it, I guess.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's possible (but not yet probable admittedly). It does explain the absolute secrecy in what they've been doing for the past year and could justify their decision to publicy "rerelease" the game next year instead of just coming out with wave 2. If they showed sprues or 3D printed test pieces, the secret would be out and folks would realize that their potential plan amounts to nothing more than screwing over every single existing customer. DP9 did that with Heavy Gear around 1998ish so they wouldn't be the first but they're also STILL paying the price for screwing over customers with that initial move (which was followed by multiple similar ones in the decades since). After the distraction vote this past spring/early summer in which their heavily propagandized bigger scale got the absolute lowest amount of votes, they quickly proclaimed that it still had enough for further consideration... even though it was the last choice by a wide margin. I could see them thinking it appropriate to use the remaining KS funds to redo the most important minis (that they've already screwed up) in a different scale and/or material along with "advanced" rules that amount to nothing more than the previously promised but abandoned skirmish rules we already paid for. Of course we've already gotten more than our fair share of value according to Palladium in their BBB responses so they'd likely not bother to ship us anything except in lieu of wave 2 (not in addition to them). I admit the above is quite tin foil hat but unfortunately the most accurate predictions about this game throughout its history have been the most pessimistic ones. I hope I'm wrong though but I'll be looking for subtle hints of a forced scale change from now on.
warboss wrote: The more I think about it, the more I think it's possible (but not yet probable admittedly). It does explain the absolute secrecy in what they've been doing for the past year and could justify their decision to publicy "rerelease" the game next year instead of just coming out with wave 2. If they showed sprues or 3D printed test pieces, the secret would be out and folks would realize that their potential plan amounts to nothing more than screwing over every single existing customer. DP9 did that with Heavy Gear around 1998ish so they wouldn't be the first but they're also STILL paying the price for screwing over customers with that initial move (which was followed by multiple similar ones in the decades since). After the distraction vote this past spring/early summer in which their heavily propagandized bigger scale got the absolute lowest amount of votes, they quickly proclaimed that it still had enough for further consideration... even though it was the last choice by a wide margin. I could see them thinking it appropriate to use the remaining KS funds to redo the most important minis (that they've already screwed up) in a different scale and/or material along with "advanced" rules that amount to nothing more than the previously promised but abandoned skirmish rules we already paid for. Of course we've already gotten more than our fair share of value according to Palladium in their BBB responses so they'd likely not bother to ship us anything except in lieu of wave 2 (not in addition to them). I admit the above is quite tin foil hat but unfortunately the most accurate predictions about this game throughout its history have been the most pessimistic ones. I hope I'm wrong though but I'll be looking for subtle hints of a forced scale change from now on.
While I wouldn't want to dismiss rampant stupidity from Palladium out of hand (that's the one thing I continue to give them the benefit of the doubt on), I do think that it is the worst possible thing they could do from a business perspective. You already mentioned the public relations perspective, but that's not what I'm talking about. A change of scale for the current fulfillment would be a direct breach of the agreement that backers made with Palladium. From the front page, "All game pieces are 1/285th scale (40mm – 70mm tall) and are high quality, multi-part, multi-pose ABS plastic.". That's as much a part of the contract as the quantity of models, or the specific model types.
Unless they're willing to offer refunds to any who want them, as some backed BECAUSE of the scale (and we know how they feel about refunds), AND are willing to provide replacements of all the existing models in the new scale for those willing to remain attached, it's essentially throwing up a fraud flag. They'd be better off arguing that "Sorry, the campaign is out of money, we cannot fulfil your rewards, here's why you're not owed any more", trying to weasel out that way and keeping a low profile, than saying "Hey, we're gonna spend a couple hundred thousand on new molds, tough luck backers, thanks for getting us this far, you can purchase the new stuff at www.suckerborneveryminute.com".
I mean, I can see suits happening if they tried to fold, and those might win, but what you're proposing? It'd be handing the lawyers the keys to PB almost as fast as Kevin saying "Yup. We screwed the backers. I bought a yacht. Come get me.".
There's no way this could work out for PB, even if they were a slick well-oiled machine. But this lot? *makes airplane flying noises as it descends* *makes big crashing sound* *mimes big explosion expression with hands*.
evilsmurf wrote: Yes, photos of the rifts boardgame were posted online by one of the visitors to the Open House where Carmen was demoing 'his' game. As soon as we saw the pictures of the board we instantly recognized the game he had copied. Talisman has quite a distinctive board.
Forar wrote: Checking in on CSI remains highly entertaining, if just because their stock never seems to move.
That said, it actually has! They still have the 3 lonely Spartan/Phalanx packs sitting there, but the Artillery Pod listing has dropped from 13 boxes to 11!
2 expansions (from the more highly sought after non-core pair that is) sold! Movement! Hype! Buzz!
You have no idea how much that stock sitting on the shelf there bothers me. It's been there so long, it IS gathering dust. The two Artillery Pod packs are the first I've seen move in months.
While I was really hoping that RRT would come out in 1/200(N-scale) so it would match up with my MW:O minis and my MW:AoD as well I did back a Kickstarter for 1/285. If they made them smaller or larger it would be breaching the terms and making my game set look absolutely mis-matched. I don't see as how they could do that legally and cheaper so it is most likely supposition.
As to PB not breaking the contract backers pledged to, why not? they have done it before and done it in this project and will most likely do it again, why? because they can, the backers are mostly apathetic and lazy doing nothing but armchair complaining, and PB knows this, this is why they keep stretching the disbelief, right now there are only a handful who will do anything and PB will pay us off, hell the bulk of complainers can't even be bothered to file with the FTC and/or the Michigan AG, and PB knows this, so they will continue to push the boundaries of decentness and honor because people won't stand up unified and say no more.
As it goes most backers are doing a wait and see attitude, not realizing thats what PB wants, because they know that will accomplish nothing, if worse comes to worse with a couple lawsuits then they refund with a NDA to avoid the run for the banks, if they offered me a refund and said i only get it if I keep mum about it I would accept it, cause I would be getting my money back and will no longer have to deal with this. meanwhile those who are sitting and waiting will continue to sit and wait for the newest PB screw over.
n815e wrote: You have stated over years now that you want to destroy PB as a company.
But just like PB, you will sell out your word for a few bucks.
I can only do so much, I have filed with the FTC and the Michigan AG, but if others do not, not much I can do, neither agency will act unless a sufficient amount complain.
and once PB offers me a refund not much I can do after that.
Asterios wrote: As to PB not breaking the contract backers pledged to, why not? they have done it before and done it in this project and will most likely do it again, why? because they can, the backers are mostly apathetic and lazy doing nothing but armchair complaining, and PB knows this, this is why they keep stretching the disbelief, right now there are only a handful who will do anything and PB will pay us off, hell the bulk of complainers can't even be bothered to file with the FTC and/or the Michigan AG, and PB knows this, so they will continue to push the boundaries of decentness and honor because people won't stand up unified and say no more.
As it goes most backers are doing a wait and see attitude, not realizing thats what PB wants, because they know that will accomplish nothing, if worse comes to worse with a couple lawsuits then they refund with a NDA to avoid the run for the banks, if they offered me a refund and said i only get it if I keep mum about it I would accept it, cause I would be getting my money back and will no longer have to deal with this. meanwhile those who are sitting and waiting will continue to sit and wait for the newest PB screw over.
That's why I'm glad we have someone like you, Rick. At my pledge level, the few hours I'd devote to it would easily surpass the value of anything I'd feasibly get back in return. With your meticulous planning and pro bono legal assistance, you're the hero this Kickstarter both needs and deserves... our own Dark Knight to fight through all the white knights. You've been more than generous in giving Palladium enough warning with hundreds of posts on the Kickstarter over the years warning them to change their dastardly ways. Your mercy has been most bountiful and extended but it's time for you to enact your often quoted but delayed revenge.
n815e wrote: You have stated over years now that you want to destroy PB as a company. But just like PB, you will sell out your word for a few bucks.
I can only do so much, I have filed with the FTC and the Michigan AG, but if others do not, not much I can do, neither agency will act unless a sufficient amount complain.
and once PB offers me a refund not much I can do after that.
You've threatened to sue them hundreds of times with your victory assured and only the extent of your revenge to be determined. You could... you know... actually do what you said ad nauseam. Are you actually admitting finally that your threats of suing them with your probono legal representation were a bluff?
You've threatened to sue them hundreds of times with your victory assured and only the extent of your revenge to be determined. You could... you know... actually do what you said ad nauseam. Are you actually admitting finally that your threats of suing them with your probono legal representation were a bluff?
no what 'm saying is people do not realize all PB has to do is give me a refund and then there is nothing I could do, PB sends me $120 and thats it. now if PB waits till a suit is filed then it will cost them more(attorney fees).
You've threatened to sue them hundreds of times with your victory assured and only the extent of your revenge to be determined. You could... you know... actually do what you said ad nauseam. Are you actually admitting finally that your threats of suing them with your probono legal representation were a bluff?
no what 'm saying is people do not realize all PB has to do is give me a refund and then there is nothing I could do, PB sends me $120 and thats it. now if PB waits till a suit is filed then it will cost them more(attorney fees).
Ok, just checking. They only have a few weeks until your most recent ideal filing time is reached to pay you your $120 in that case. I suspect you or your legal representative will be in court very soon unless you decide to delay the ultimatum date yet again.
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Morgan Vening wrote: While I wouldn't want to dismiss rampant stupidity from Palladium out of hand (that's the one thing I continue to give them the benefit of the doubt on), I do think that it is the worst possible thing they could do from a business perspective. You already mentioned the public relations perspective, but that's not what I'm talking about. A change of scale for the current fulfillment would be a direct breach of the agreement that backers made with Palladium. From the front page, "All game pieces are 1/285th scale (40mm – 70mm tall) and are high quality, multi-part, multi-pose ABS plastic.". That's as much a part of the contract as the quantity of models, or the specific model types.
They've broken the kickstarter contract so many times voluntarily that it's almost meaningless. The minis were shows and works in progress and subject to change. If palladium thinks the words "delivery estimate" gives them FOREVER to complete the rewards as long as they're "working" on it, I don't see them splitting hairs and not thinking that "subject to change" doesn't give them carte blanche to change the scale. It would be a breach of contract IMO but so is an almost 3 year delay, split waves, no skirmish rules, trying to sell at retail before fulfilling backer rewards, etc.
While we don't have a minis game to compare it with (although they do admittedly have a scale stable minis line that nobody cares about), they do have a series of RPGs including Robotech to compare it with. Before the current rehashed Robotech RPG was released, they touted the new super awesome everyone around the office loves it "manga" size of the print (slightly between normal paperback and the larger size 40k's Black Library uses for new readers). Concerns from actual customers were raised about the readibility/utility/durability of this size as well as the overall aesthetics of a half size book next to the rest of the Palladium RPG collections on shelves. Of course, all dissent as usual was ignored because Kevin Siembieda was "innovating" to great acclaim (within his arm's paycheck reach and earshot). The format at market turned out not to be popular and eventually they came out with a "deluxe" hardback version of the core book that sold better and they started to reprint existing books (without any new content) in the normal size. Eventually, new books ONLY came out in the normal size and people who were stupid enough to buy the original manga size (including myself for two books) were left out in the cold. Screwing over existing customers by changing the size of the products in a game line is a tactic in the Palladium playbook. So many bad habits they've developed over decades in their RPG business seems to have carried over to their minis game so I don't see why they couldn't take it one step further.
It's admittedly a conspiracy theory at this point but I'm staking my "I told you so claim!" in advance.
You've threatened to sue them hundreds of times with your victory assured and only the extent of your revenge to be determined. You could... you know... actually do what you said ad nauseam. Are you actually admitting finally that your threats of suing them with your probono legal representation were a bluff?
no what 'm saying is people do not realize all PB has to do is give me a refund and then there is nothing I could do, PB sends me $120 and thats it. now if PB waits till a suit is filed then it will cost them more(attorney fees).
Ok, just checking. They only have a few weeks until your most recent ideal filing time is reached to pay you your $120 in that case. I suspect you or your legal representative will be in court very soon unless you decide to delay the ultimatum date yet again.
Well if anything got off from the AG's office or the FTC I probably wouldn't pursue the lawsuit since they will do far more damage then I could.
warboss wrote: While I wouldn't want to dismiss rampant stupidity from Palladium out of hand (that's the one thing I continue to give them the benefit of the doubt on), I do think that it is the worst possible thing they could do from a business perspective. You already mentioned the public relations perspective, but that's not what I'm talking about. A change of scale for the current fulfillment would be a direct breach of the agreement that backers made with Palladium. From the front page, "All game pieces are 1/285th scale (40mm – 70mm tall) and are high quality, multi-part, multi-pose ABS plastic.". That's as much a part of the contract as the quantity of models, or the specific model types.
They've broken the kickstarter contract so many times voluntarily that it's almost meaningless. The minis were shows and works in progress and subject to change. If palladium thinks the words "delivery estimate" gives them FOREVER to complete the rewards as long as they're "working" on it, I don't see them splitting hairs and not thinking that "subject to change" doesn't give them carte blanche to change the scale. It would be a breach of contract IMO but so is an almost 3 year delay, split waves, no skirmish rules, trying to sell at retail before fulfilling backer rewards, etc.
While we don't have a minis game to compare it with (although they do admittedly have a scale stable minis line that nobody cares about), they do have a series of RPGs including Robotech to compare it with. Before the current rehashed Robotech RPG was released, they touted the new super awesome everyone around the office loves it "manga" size of the print (slightly between normal paperback and the larger size 40k's Black Library uses for new readers). Concerns from actual customers were raised about the readibility/utility/durability of this size as well as the overall aesthetics of a half size book next to the rest of the Palladium RPG collections on shelves. Of course, all dissent as usual was ignored because Kevin Siembieda was "innovating" to great acclaim (within his arm's paycheck reach and earshot). The format at market turned out not to be popular and eventually they came out with a "deluxe" hardback version of the core book that sold better and they started to reprint existing books (without any new content) in the normal size. Eventually, new books ONLY came out in the normal size and people who were stupid enough to buy the original manga size (including myself for two books) were left out in the cold. Screwing over existing customers by changing the size of the products in a game line is a tactic in the Palladium playbook. So many bad habits they've developed over decades in their RPG business seems to have carried over to their minis game so I don't see why they couldn't take it one step further.
It's admittedly a conspiracy theory at this point but I'm staking my "I told you so claim!" in advance.
oh I agree with you, PB feels like they can do anything due to the Apathy of their backers and buyers and fans.
You've threatened to sue them hundreds of times with your victory assured and only the extent of your revenge to be determined. You could... you know... actually do what you said ad nauseam. Are you actually admitting finally that your threats of suing them with your probono legal representation were a bluff?
no what 'm saying is people do not realize all PB has to do is give me a refund and then there is nothing I could do, PB sends me $120 and thats it. now if PB waits till a suit is filed then it will cost them more(attorney fees).
This is interesting - and disappointing.
I can't believe that someone on the Internet was exaggerating - again!!!
Oh, Rick has mentioned that a number of times to date.
Usually with an addendum to note that they probably won't do it because it would cause an Ultra Tsunami of other backers demanding the same.
And honestly, I could see a pro/con situation of weighing out whether to just give a refund to shut someone up (and risk dozens or hundreds of people coming at them for the same) or making them jump through the hoops to do it legally, presumably incurring a much higher loss per person that does, but adding a massive barrier to having to do so, likely vastly reducing the number of people who would actually act on it.
I'd be surprised if someone there hadn't run the math, or talked to a lawyer about how it might all play out based on precedent.
Pro-rated reasonably as many people have run the math, PB doesn't even owe me all that much across a double-Reckless and a pile of add ons. But a hundred people around my level would add up very quickly, as an example.
You've threatened to sue them hundreds of times with your victory assured and only the extent of your revenge to be determined. You could... you know... actually do what you said ad nauseam. Are you actually admitting finally that your threats of suing them with your probono legal representation were a bluff?
no what 'm saying is people do not realize all PB has to do is give me a refund and then there is nothing I could do, PB sends me $120 and thats it. now if PB waits till a suit is filed then it will cost them more(attorney fees).
This is interesting - and disappointing.
I can't believe that someone on the Internet was exaggerating - again!!!
no I'm trying my best have filed with the FTC and with the States AG, and even told people how to do it, but only so much I can do if others do not wish to help themselves nothing i can do about it, I can give them water but I cannot make them drink.
no I'm trying my best have filed with the FTC and with the States AG, and even told people how to do it, but only so much I can do if others do not wish to help themselves nothing i can do about it, I can give them water but I cannot make them drink.
If they're not thirsty, why would they want to dig the well? You're not some Kickstarter Moses leading your backer people to the promised refund land so please stop excusing your own delays in carrying through with your originally stated actions on others. Every backer makes the determination about whether it is worth it personally to them to carry it to the next step. Heck, some made the decision to simply stop complaining and forget about it completely. Some still complain and spread the word like us in this thread. A smaller subset group have taken the next step to file complaints with various official and unofficial bodies (which you admittedly spearheaded). You, however, were the only person to consciously make the public decision long ago to loudly and frequently inform everyone for years that you're taking it to the final level (suing Palladium). While I applaud your previous initial late added groundwork efforts several seasons ago, it's time for you to stop threatening palladium with their ultimate destruction over and over again and finally move to DEFCON 1 or just admit defeat. You need to start crapping or get off the pot... but I suspect you'll just switch stalls yet again instead.
Now, it wouldn't be the first time in the history of this kickstarter that someone kept making grand promises and posted walls of ultimately meaningless text only to break their word over and over and keep pushing back the date... but I'm not sure you really should be imitating your nemesis, Rick Steinbieda. You've come out with your wave 1 revenge rewards (FTC and BBB) many months ago; it's time to stop pushing back the date on wave 2 (the lawsuit). The other option is to just admit that you're not capable of it and/or it's not worth it and instead apologize for wasting everyone's time for years with your threats. You've got only got a few weeks until you officially become a parody of the man whose company you wish to crush. You've cried wolf so many times you've probably spotted every living and dead specimen in the entire genus yet no attacks have actually been reported.
it is what it is, as it goes he waiting till after the holidays to start filing since filing before is an effort in still waiting.
If you actually keep your word in the early weeks of 2016 (subject to obvious public verification and conclusion of course), I'll be the first to congratulate you in the thread and apologize. It still won't be worth it for me to follow in your footsteps but I'll readily acknowledge your attempt at a moral victory for consumer rights in this mess of a project.
no I'm trying my best have filed with the FTC and with the States AG, and even told people how to do it, but only so much I can do if others do not wish to help themselves nothing i can do about it, I can give them water but I cannot make them drink.
If they're not thirsty, why would they want to dig the well? You're not some Kickstarter Moses leading your backer people to the promised refund land so please stop excusing your own delays in carrying through with your originally stated actions on others. Every backer makes the determination about whether it is worth it personally to them to carry it to the next step. Heck, some made the decision to simply stop complaining and forget about it completely. Some still complain and spread the word like us in this thread. A smaller subset group have taken the next step to file complaints with various official and unofficial bodies (which you admittedly spearheaded). You, however, were the only person to consciously make the public decision long ago to loudly and frequently inform everyone for years that you're taking it to the final level (suing Palladium). While I applaud your previous initial late added groundwork efforts several seasons ago, it's time for you to stop threatening palladium with their ultimate destruction over and over again and finally move to DEFCON 1 or just admit defeat. You need to start crapping or get off the pot... but I suspect you'll just switch stalls yet again instead.
Now, it wouldn't be the first time in the history of this kickstarter that someone kept making grand promises and posted walls of ultimately meaningless text only to break their word over and over and keep pushing back the date... but I'm not sure you really should be imitating your nemesis, Rick Steinbieda. You've come out with your wave 1 revenge rewards (FTC and BBB) many months ago; it's time to stop pushing back the date on wave 2 (the lawsuit). The other option is to just admit that you're not capable of it and/or it's not worth it and instead apologize for wasting everyone's time for years with your threats. You've got only got a few weeks until you officially become a parody of the man whose company you wish to crush. You've cried wolf so many times you've probably spotted every living and dead specimen in the entire genus yet no attacks have actually been reported.
it is what it is, as it goes he waiting till after the holidays to start filing since filing before is an effort in still waiting.
If you actually keep your word in the early weeks of 2016 (subject to obvious public verification and conclusion of course), I'll be the first to congratulate you in the thread and apologize. It still won't be worth it for me to follow in your footsteps but I'll readily acknowledge your attempt at a moral victory for consumer rights in this mess of a project.
and like I said it is still my intention to do so right after the holidays, but I am also a realist who realizes even Kevin can't be that Stupid to risk a lawsuit against him, so if I receive the aforementioned refund not much I can do anyway. but if Kevin is that stupid, then he does not deserve to be running a company at all.
warboss wrote: While I applaud your previous initial late added groundwork efforts several seasons ago, it's time for you to stop threatening palladium with their ultimate destruction over and over again and finally move to DEFCON 1 or just admit defeat.
Dude, get off his back. The way I read his posts, he gave a 12/31/2015 deadline, and we're still more than 2 weeks from that. It is still possible that Kevco will surprise and delight us with something substantial and verifiable before that passes. It is highly likely that Kevin will give some big blathering Update to try and mark time in the last week of the year.
Assuming that PB continues to stonewall and kick the can, he will file at his convenience (and budget), not ours. Given how quickly (glacially slowly) the legal process is, and how litigation works (again, very slowly), I would not expect filing and service to occur until February. At that point, any updates on pending litigation will come from PACER and more likely gaming news, because people are generally unwise to comment on active litigation.
From a strict dollars and cents standpoint, Palladium will pay more in legal fees responding to the complaint than they would in a refund. With interest. The real thing here is having a winning legal template for people to file in their local Small Claims. Give him as much time as he wants. If it goes into late Q2/Q3 next year, then you can give him a little grief. But right now, it's a little premature to be busting his balls.
Dude, get off his back. The way I read his posts, he gave a 12/31/2015 deadline, and we're still more than 2 weeks from that. It is still possible that Kevco will surprise and delight us with something substantial and verifiable before that passes. It is highly likely that Kevin will give some big blathering Update to try and mark time in the last week of the year.
Assuming that PB continues to stonewall and kick the can, he will file at his convenience (and budget), not ours. Given how quickly (glacially slowly) the legal process is, and how litigation works (again, very slowly), I would not expect filing and service to occur until February. At that point, any updates on pending litigation will come from PACER and more likely gaming news, because people are generally unwise to comment on active litigation.
He gave that date only in response to my prodding. Previously he would drift straight through the seasons threatening Palladium with their doom with nothing to show for it. The talk of the BBB and the FTC were suddenly added earlier this year as advised legal groundwork before filing which was indeed helpful... but those efforts have long since failed so I wanted to see what his next milestone is and I finally got the EOY 2015 date. He will indeed end up filing at his convenience and budget (although he has boasted many times of free representation so that helps take out alot of the sting of the costs) regardless of this thread and that is his choice... as is mine to politely (but sarcastically) remind him of his many, many previous so far unfulfilled boasts of legal doom and the next upcoming delivery (of JUSTICE!) date. He can file on January 2nd as he's had over a year and a half to prepare while threatening palladium (while annoying backers). Now, I don't expect him to file on January 2nd but I do think that the month of January is more than enough time to put up or shut up given the multiyear history of his constant rhetoric (2014,2015, and potentially 2016). If he does, I'll congratulate him on his perserverance and apologize for not believing in him. If he doesn't, I'll expect an apology for hundreds of wasted comment threats that drowned out legitimate discussion of the troubles in this project in 2014 and 2015.
In all seriousness, Rick, I expect nothing to come from 2 years worth of legal threats (including Rick actually filing anything that we can verify online) but maybe if you keep your promises we'll find out the truth about what happened and what is NOT happening currently (whether from you or Palladium directly).
Down the road, I'm thinking to potentially reskin KL from Heavy Gear to Macross, so I'd have a quick way and easy way of playing my 
don't just bring the pain to 
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