warboss wrote:
He can file on January 2nd as he's had over a year and a half to prepare while threatening palladium (while annoying backers). Now, I don't expect him to file on January 2nd but I do think that the month of January is more than enough time to put up or shut up given the multiyear history of his constant rhetoric (2014,2015, and potentially 2016).

obviously you are not aware of the US legal system if you think I can file on the 2nd. of January.

furthermore obviously you don't read most of what I said or you would realize this suit is rather new, the previous talk of a suit was if PB sold at GenCon before they delivered my order.

but then again you like to play ignorant and think you are knocking people down without realizing you are looking the fool for doing so.

Also you do realize the most I can do is say I filed, right? since once the paperwork is filed my attorney told me not too mention it.

I'm fully aware of your moving the goal posts, Rick Steinbieda. And, yes, I know you shouldn't talk about this project if you file.. but.. I'm not sure you can hold in all RRPGT talk for all of 2016 until the resolution. I expect the onion layers of deceit to unravel as your legal vengeance is enacted and your dish is quite cold!

All it takes to shut me up, Rick, is admitting that you've been bluffing/exaggerating all this time and apologizing instead of rolling that lawsuit filing date back from EOY 2015 to Q1 or Q2 Palladium style. I already said I'll be the bigger man if proven wrong and apologize. In the interests of not derailing this thread, I won't prod you further on this subject this year. Consider it a Hanukhah gift.

Pro bono isn't free. It simply means that the hourly labor is waived. But that kind of "free" usually doesn't extend to fees, expenses and other costs.

And again, you need to stop with the dates (i.e. Jan. 2).

Finally, if he's actually trolling, then why are you constantly feeding him?

I'm sure if we take your prods out, his post volume is incidental.

You assume I'm talking primarily about Dakka and you're assuming wrong; he is probably the most frequent total poster on the kickstarter comments by a wide margin. I'm also fully aware of the other costs which is why I said it helps take alot of the sting out of the costs instead of saying it was free.

 warboss wrote:
You assume I'm talking primarily about Dakka and you're assuming wrong; he is probably the most frequent total poster on the kickstarter comments by a wide margin. I'm also fully aware of the other costs which is why I said it helps take alot of the sting out of the costs instead of saying it was free.

No, that'd be Jorel, and by a wide margin, I think. But Rick would be an unambiguous second.

That would surprise me but I haven't admittedly looked really in many months. Jorel would bicker with Jaymz in spurts but also not post for a while as well.

Let's make even a cursory glance over Rick's Dakka history searching merely for the word Destroy.

Asterios wrote:
as to the litigation part its not to get my money but to destroy PB for destroying my dream for a Robotech table top miniatures game.

Pretty clear; this isn't about $120, it's about vengeance. Or justice. Whatever sounds less stupid.

Asterios wrote:
also for those of you who keep mentioning lawsuits and such, your still missing the big point, the lawsuits are nothing the BBB complaints are nothing, the thing that will destroy PB and utterly destroy them is the AG's and if PB does nothing soon they will be destroyed soon, once the AG's been called in they can't be called off by any backer, even when that order against that one kickstarter came in against it by a CPA violation brought in from an AG, the Pledges were being delivered and the courts still found them guilty. and fined. I look at all those whiners on the PB forums and think they are whining to the wrong people, they need to whine to PB cause the AG will not listen to them and I have no say in stopping the AG's now. all I can do is supply the information they request.

you want to keep PB safe you better start whining at PB and Kevin to get off his ass and do something, cause once the ball gets rolling with the various AG's they will not stop until they got their blood.

Though admittedly there's precedent for the Tournament Edition Hyper Legal Tsunami Championship Mode Assault to merely be about injuring PB (to the tune of $120 or the start of backer refunds or just kicking off a shot at some dough before the AG swoops in like a Legal Avenging Angel to annihilate them in a wall of paperwork and fines).

Asterios wrote:

We care about you, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and its future. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or has an agenda to destroy this game, see the Kickstarter fail or take down Palladium Books. That last part may sound ridiculous, and in fact it IS ridiculous, but it’s true.

who does he think he is God? by the time me and other backers are done he will be lucky if he can borrow a dime

Awfully strong words right there. Granted, this invokes The Other Backers, whom we've also established (recently and prior) as Not Being Necessarily Trustworthy.

Asterios wrote:
as it goes you have friends to play the game with whoopdedoo, have fun, not stopping you, my only plan is to destroy PB.

Ah, now we're back to it! MONEY FOR THE MONEY GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE, BEHOLD MY BOUNTY AND WEEP AS I FORCE A KEVACUATION UPON THEM!

Asterios wrote:
you went after me, you went after me for the mere fact I want to destroy your precious PB

And now we're back to Reaper mode. "THEY EXIST BECAUSE I ALLOW IT... AND HAVE NOT YET FILED THE PAPERWORK, THEY WILL GO BANKRUPT BECAUSE I DEMAND IT."

Which works even better for the Mass Effect fans out there. "Ah yes, 'lawsuits', the killing blow upon Palladium that has been allegedly hovering over them for years now. We have dismissed that claim."

And more recently it's been 'oh I won't crush them, merely wound them, it will be upon others to bloody their blades to inflict enough damage'.

Count me with Warboss on this. If it goes through and Rick gets paid out, kudos. However, it's not just here, but thousands upon thousands of comments on the KS, droning on incessantly about the looming Attorneypocalypse, the Litigationgeddon that was merely months away based on them not acting *explicitly* as they were told, be it sales at Gencon or not having at least a reasonable plan for the end of the year or whatever. Rick has been going on like Liam Neeson for a good 2 years now, about his special set of skills and how he's a monster waiting to pounce. Any argument about legal pursuit being frivolous or folly or simply a waste of time have been met endlessly by how right and just and successful his will be.

So yeah, I can kind of understand the humour value draining away. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the first step of litigation is like Fight Club: SHUT THE FETH UP ABOUT THE LITIGATION. Filing with the BBB and AG and FTC and whoever seems like some damned fine paper trail building, but I can't believe for a second that any lawyer willing to do pro-bono work would also be down with their client having a over six thousand comments for the opposition to prune through for choice (in and out of context) statements to weaken their stance. Plus however many are on here, of course.

So perhaps it won't literally be the start of the year, maybe not even January itself, but if he can't file in a reasonable timeframe or give a fething good reason for a delay longer than a couple of weeks or perhaps even months, I think it'd be marvelous if at the very least Rick shut the feth up about it. Forever. Either gak or get off the pot, but stop wasting everyone's time with hundreds and thousands of posts about the quality of the pot and the massiveness of his stopped colon and how when he unleashes it everyone within miles will know and rend their clothes in sheer terror.

It's over. We've been through it. Anyone who sues, good luck to them, but how about we start 2016 off right and put an end to a running gag that is officially no longer funny?

Edit: I agree that I think Jorel might give him a run for his money, but for context; between the entire comment run on the KS (main section and updates included), there's (at a glance) around 115-120k comments. Rick has 6,120 of those. Meaning roughly 1 in 20 comments on the ENTIRE KS is his.

Jorel's at 8,101 comments, but he has also backed 36 more campaigns than Rick (who has 1 on that account), so surely hundreds or more of those are spread across others. Hell, I have 7,428, but that's across 57 campaigns, some of which were quite active but I'll state up front that RRT has been by far my most active. Hell, if you pruned the three of us and anyone responding to/interacting with us, we'd probably chop a good 10-20% off the KS comments easily.

OK, I don't follow the KS comments (for obvious reasons). I do think there's more legal talk than there should be.

 warboss wrote:
I'm fully aware of your moving the goal posts, Rick Steinbieda. And, yes, I know you shouldn't talk about this project if you file.. but.. I'm not sure you can hold in all RRPGT talk for all of 2016 until the resolution. I expect the onion layers of deceit to unravel as your legal vengeance is enacted and your dish is quite cold!

All it takes to shut me up, Rick, is admitting that you've been bluffing/exaggerating all this time and apologizing instead of rolling that lawsuit filing date back from EOY 2015 to Q1 or Q2 Palladium style. I already said I'll be the bigger man if proven wrong and apologize. In the interests of not derailing this thread, I won't prod you further on this subject this year. Consider it a Hanukhah gift.

but in this you err, this is the first time any "goal Post" or date was made, I already signed the paperwork with my lawyer its all on him now to file when he does and such.

 Forar wrote:
Let's make even a cursory glance over Rick's Dakka history searching merely for the word Destroy.

Asterios wrote:
as to the litigation part its not to get my money but to destroy PB for destroying my dream for a Robotech table top miniatures game.

Pretty clear; this isn't about $120, it's about vengeance. Or justice. Whatever sounds less stupid.

And I have done what I could.

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
also for those of you who keep mentioning lawsuits and such, your still missing the big point, the lawsuits are nothing the BBB complaints are nothing, the thing that will destroy PB and utterly destroy them is the AG's and if PB does nothing soon they will be destroyed soon, once the AG's been called in they can't be called off by any backer, even when that order against that one kickstarter came in against it by a CPA violation brought in from an AG, the Pledges were being delivered and the courts still found them guilty. and fined. I look at all those whiners on the PB forums and think they are whining to the wrong people, they need to whine to PB cause the AG will not listen to them and I have no say in stopping the AG's now. all I can do is supply the information they request.

you want to keep PB safe you better start whining at PB and Kevin to get off his ass and do something, cause once the ball gets rolling with the various AG's they will not stop until they got their blood.

Though admittedly there's precedent for the Tournament Edition Hyper Legal Tsunami Championship Mode Assault to merely be about injuring PB (to the tune of $120 or the start of backer refunds or just kicking off a shot at some dough before the AG swoops in like a Legal Avenging Angel to annihilate them in a wall of paperwork and fines).

Like I said its the AG and the FTC that can do PB the most damage, which is why I have found it odd people are putting so much precedence on my lawsuit, it will not help anyone I probably will not be able to say what I found out, in fact the only thing I "might" be able to say when its done is i won but even that is not guerenteed.

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:

We care about you, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and its future. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or has an agenda to destroy this game, see the Kickstarter fail or take down Palladium Books. That last part may sound ridiculous, and in fact it IS ridiculous, but it’s true.

Awfully strong words right there. Granted, this invokes The Other Backers, whom we've also established (recently and prior) as Not Being Necessarily Trustworthy.

who does he think he is God? by the time me and other backers are done he will be lucky if he can borrow a dime

and if the backers actually did something this would be true, but apathy has lurked into the backers and they have just gone oh well.

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
you went after me, you went after me for the mere fact I want to destroy your precious PB

And now we're back to Reaper mode. "THEY EXIST BECAUSE I ALLOW IT... AND HAVE NOT YET FILED THE PAPERWORK, THEY WILL GO BANKRUPT BECAUSE I DEMAND IT."

Which works even better for the Mass Effect fans out there. "Ah yes, 'lawsuits', the killing blow upon Palladium that has been allegedly hovering over them for years now. We have dismissed that claim."

And more recently it's been 'oh I won't crush them, merely wound them, it will be upon others to bloody their blades to inflict enough damage'.

Evidently your very obtuse in reading are you not? what I want doesn't mean jack diddly squat yes I want to destroy PB, but only so much i can do.

 Forar wrote:
Count me with Warboss on this. If it goes through and Rick gets paid out, kudos. However, it's not just here, but thousands upon thousands of comments on the KS, droning on incessantly about the looming Attorneypocalypse, the Litigationgeddon that was merely months away based on them not acting *explicitly* as they were told, be it sales at Gencon or not having at least a reasonable plan for the end of the year or whatever. Rick has been going on like Liam Neeson for a good 2 years now, about his special set of skills and how he's a monster waiting to pounce. Any argument about legal pursuit being frivolous or folly or simply a waste of time have been met endlessly by how right and just and successful his will be.

So yeah, I can kind of understand the humour value draining away. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the first step of litigation is like Fight Club: SHUT THE FETH UP ABOUT THE LITIGATION. Filing with the BBB and AG and FTC and whoever seems like some damned fine paper trail building, but I can't believe for a second that any lawyer willing to do pro-bono work would also be down with their client having a over six thousand comments for the opposition to prune through for choice (in and out of context) statements to weaken their stance. Plus however many are on here, of course.

So perhaps it won't literally be the start of the year, maybe not even January itself, but if he can't file in a reasonable timeframe or give a fething good reason for a delay longer than a couple of weeks or perhaps even months, I think it'd be marvelous if at the very least Rick shut the feth up about it. Forever. Either gak or get off the pot, but stop wasting everyone's time with hundreds and thousands of posts about the quality of the pot and the massiveness of his stopped colon and how when he unleashes it everyone within miles will know and rend their clothes in sheer terror.

It's over. We've been through it. Anyone who sues, good luck to them, but how about we start 2016 off right and put an end to a running gag that is officially no longer funny?

Edit: I agree that I think Jorel might give him a run for his money, but for context; between the entire comment run on the KS (main section and updates included), there's (at a glance) around 115-120k comments. Rick has 6,120 of those. Meaning roughly 1 in 20 comments on the ENTIRE KS is his.

Jorel's at 8,101 comments, but he has also backed 36 more campaigns than Rick (who has 1 on that account), so surely hundreds or more of those are spread across others. Hell, I have 7,428, but that's across 57 campaigns, some of which were quite active but I'll state up front that RRT has been by far my most active. Hell, if you pruned the three of us and anyone responding to/interacting with us, we'd probably chop a good 10-20% off the KS comments easily.

actually if you looked at my posts you will notice some are on other KS, but then again there you go assuming again.

LOL, exchange Jaymz for Warboss and Jorel for Rick and this is just a rinse and repeat....

@Forar....totally agreed on the being tired of the same old, "It's your FAULT that PB exists!" The number of "White Knights" is not high enough to keep them in business. The sheer number of unaware of uncaring people who are just fans and ignore the tirades between "Haterz" and "White Knights" are what keeps the lights on and none of us are going to change that. I seriously doubt any of us or even all of us are enough to make a significant difference.

Regardless, it's unlikely that PB will change the tune until retirement or catastrophe hits.

Please Rick. There's no way there's anything but a token amount of posts on other KS's that you apparently joined, talked about, and left. I'm not scrolling through thousands of fething posts, it's close enough for prime time.

And frankly, do you really want me picking through there? Because you were QUITE adamant on the matter of your odds in successful litigation. This was a tongue-in-cheek cursory glance through your history with a single search term. Think what an actual lawyer would go find if given time, money, and a reason to fend off your unstoppable legal BJJ assault.

Anyway, don't avoid the key point; can we agree that come January either you launch your Legal Kitty Hawk Drop (and presumably are told to shut the feth up about it by your lawyer friend), or shut the feth up about litigation anyway?

Because after 2 years, the opportunities have presented themselves. Either do it, or don't, but stop talking about it (and in turn we can stop talking about you talking about it, for feths sake).

 Forar wrote:
Please Rick. There's no way there's anything but a token amount of posts on other KS's that you apparently joined, talked about, and left. I'm not scrolling through thousands of fething posts, it's close enough for prime time.

And frankly, do you really want me picking through there? Because you were QUITE adamant on the matter of your odds in successful litigation. This was a tongue-in-cheek cursory glance through your history with a single search term. Think what an actual lawyer would go find if given time, money, and a reason to fend off your unstoppable legal BJJ assault.

Anyway, don't avoid the key point; can we agree that come January either you launch your Legal Kitty Hawk Drop (and presumably are told to shut the feth up about it by your lawyer friend), or shut the feth up about litigation anyway?

Because after 2 years, the opportunities have presented themselves. Either do it, or don't, but stop talking about it (and in turn we can stop talking about you talking about it, for feths sake).

agreed

 Forar wrote:
Please Rick. There's no way there's anything but a token amount of posts on other KS's that you apparently joined, talked about, and left. I'm not scrolling through thousands of fething posts, it's close enough for prime time.

And frankly, do you really want me picking through there? Because you were QUITE adamant on the matter of your odds in successful litigation. This was a tongue-in-cheek cursory glance through your history with a single search term. Think what an actual lawyer would go find if given time, money, and a reason to fend off your unstoppable legal BJJ assault.

Anyway, don't avoid the key point; can we agree that come January either you launch your Legal Kitty Hawk Drop (and presumably are told to shut the feth up about it by your lawyer friend), or shut the feth up about litigation anyway?

Because after 2 years, the opportunities have presented themselves. Either do it, or don't, but stop talking about it (and in turn we can stop talking about you talking about it, for feths sake).

and like I said the paperwork is signed, my attorney starts next month after the christmas/new years holidays, what more do you want?

 Mike1975 wrote:
LOL, exchange Jaymz for Warboss and Jorel for Rick and this is just a rinse and repeat....

Only if we continued it for months every single day all day. This is just a minor skirmish lasting one half of one day! Are they still at it? I stopped checking around the pointless scale vote.

Asterios wrote:
and like I said the paperwork is signed, my attorney starts next month after the christmas/new years holidays, what more do you want?

A gentleman's agreement that going forward, the only legal chatter is fact based. Not about what you plan to do, or hope to do, or will do. Things that are *done*, factually. X papers have been submitted, they have Y days to respond. Z date has been set to meet, etc.

That's a pretty low bar to set. If you're doing it, great! And if you can talk about it while you're doing it, even better! But if you aren't doing it, the thousands of posts about it end, and if you're doing it but your lawyer tells you to shut up about it, that's a great idea too, because we wouldn't want you to inadvertently hurt your case by talking about it publicly.

But if in January your lawyer comes back and says "Sorry dude, the courts are backed up, this isn't going to happen until *insert month here*", we don't get a surprise extension to Rick Talks About His Pending Lawsuit.

WIn/win for everyone, potentially even you.

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
and like I said the paperwork is signed, my attorney starts next month after the christmas/new years holidays, what more do you want?

A gentleman's agreement that going forward, the only legal chatter is fact based. Not about what you plan to do, or hope to do, or will do. Things that are *done*, factually. X papers have been submitted, they have Y days to respond. Z date has been set to meet, etc.

That's a pretty low bar to set. If you're doing it, great! And if you can talk about it while you're doing it, even better! But if you aren't doing it, the thousands of posts about it end, and if you're doing it but your lawyer tells you to shut up about it, that's a great idea too, because we wouldn't want you to inadvertently hurt your case by talking about it publicly.

But if in January your lawyer comes back and says "Sorry dude, the courts are backed up, this isn't going to happen until *insert month here*", we don't get a surprise extension to Rick Talks About His Pending Lawsuit.

WIn/win for everyone, potentially even you.

actually Forar, WarBoss is the one who brung it up now, me i was talking about the AG and FTC, i don't bring my pending suit up others bring it up which forces me to respond to them.

The ongoing Quest For The AG and BBB: BETTER BUSINESS HARDER and The FEDERAL TRADE BADASSES and whatnot have been part of your ongoing suit tirades.

Don't play coy with us, it's embarrassing. You've been promoting people reaching out to them for ages, in part because it helps all of their cases, including yours. Don't act like there isn't a vested interest in dozens or hundreds more complaints ending up on those desks.

This shouldn't be all that fething hard to agree to, man. You really can't stop, can you?

I'm legit growing concerned about your well being. "lawl, I won't bitch about suing PB until I'm actually suing PB" is a pretty low bar to clear here.

***must resist....sarcastically correcting someone wrong on... the internet***

 Forar wrote:
The ongoing Quest For The AG and BBB: BETTER BUSINESS HARDER and The FEDERAL TRADE BADASSES and whatnot have been part of your ongoing suit tirades.

Don't play coy with us, it's embarrassing. You've been promoting people reaching out to them for ages, in part because it helps all of their cases, including yours. Don't act like there isn't a vested interest in dozens or hundreds more complaints ending up on those desks.

This shouldn't be all that fething hard to agree to, man. You really can't stop, can you?

I'm legit growing concerned about your well being. "lawl, I won't bitch about suing PB until I'm actually suing PB" is a pretty low bar to clear here.

oh the AG and the FTC are a whole differant affair then my pending suit, my pending suit only helps me, the AG and FTC will help everyone.

and yes I do push the FTC and the AG for people to file with , not for any monetary benefit for me, but to bring PB down,t hat is no secret.

but hey nice way to try to side rail things.

 warboss wrote:
***must resist....sarcastically correcting someone wrong on... the internet***

why were you going to correct Forar ?

Happy Hanukhah, Rick! We both know it wasn't Ninja Forar. So any new 3d models, Rick? Did you play a game with all those painted figs?

Okay cool, since I was the one who was incorrect, we can all agree cheerfully to sideline legal talk going forward.

I won't bring it up, Mike won't bring it up, Warboss won't bring it up, Rick won't bring it up, etc.

Thank you for your cooperation.

So moving on, yes, I too would like to hear of games played and models completed.

 warboss wrote:
Happy Hanukhah, Rick! We both know it wasn't Ninja Forar. So any new 3d models, Rick? Did you play a game with all those painted figs?

still haven't found anyone interested in playing the game and with me not having my 3D program anymore haven't designed anything new, been tweaking what I have but thats about it.

Then we're sadly in the same boat. I may try forcing my little cousins, nieces, and nephews to pay when they come over for the holidays. My xbox broke a while back so they'll be desperate.

 warboss wrote:
Then we're sadly in the same boat. I may try forcing my little cousins, nieces, and nephews to pay when they come over for the holidays. My xbox broke a while back so they'll be desperate.

but that desperate? even my own wife will not play a game and she liked the Robotech show, she does want to try out the Zombie 15' game though, and already have some ready to get an "All Quiet on the Martian Front" game going when I get mine and paint them.

I'm totally going to sue Palladium Books.

Anyone want to hear about it?

Oh you!

*giggle*

Merijeek wrote:
I'm totally going to sue Palladium Books.

Anyone want to hear about it?

Forar and Warboss do.

Asterios wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Then we're sadly in the same boat. I may try forcing my little cousins, nieces, and nephews to pay when they come over for the holidays. My xbox broke a while back so they'll be desperate.

but that desperate? even my own wife will not play a game and she liked the Robotech show, she does want to try out the Zombie 15' game though, and already have some ready to get an "All Quiet on the Martian Front" game going when I get mine and paint them.

They're kids. They'll either do that or stare at the half eaten plates of cabbage, sausage, and ham in the middle of the table for hours like the adults till we move onto presents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Merijeek wrote:
I'm totally going to sue Palladium Books.

Anyone want to hear about it?

Pick a stall and get to work. Just ignore the strange noises and odors coming from the other loud Dakkite next door as you strain. And if Forar knocks on the door, hurry up!

 warboss wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Then we're sadly in the same boat. I may try forcing my little cousins, nieces, and nephews to pay when they come over for the holidays. My xbox broke a while back so they'll be desperate.

but that desperate? even my own wife will not play a game and she liked the Robotech show, she does want to try out the Zombie 15' game though, and already have some ready to get an "All Quiet on the Martian Front" game going when I get mine and paint them.

They're kids. They'll either do that or stare at the half eaten plates of cabbage, sausage, and ham in the middle of the table for hours like the adults till we move onto presents.

Your a mean one Mr. Grinch, wouldn't that be termed cruel and unusual punishment? and what does it say when you have to blackmail people to play this game

Grinch? Nah... more like a benevolent holiday tabletop dictator. As for cruel and unusual punishment, that would be forcing them to put together my remaining models which I wouldn't ever make them do. They're assembled, painted, and ready to play; if I use special characters and upgrades, I've even got 300pts for both sides. Playing the game, while flawed, isn't bad.

 warboss wrote:
Grinch? Nah... more like a benevolent holiday tabletop dictator. As for cruel and unusual punishment, that would be forcing them to put together my remaining models which I wouldn't ever make them do. .

Actually wasn't forcing someone to assemble these minis banned by the Geneva convention ?

Asterios wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Grinch? Nah... more like a benevolent holiday tabletop dictator. As for cruel and unusual punishment, that would be forcing them to put together my remaining models which I wouldn't ever make them do. .

Actually wasn't forcing someone to assemble these minis banned by the Geneva convention ?

You mean *these* minis?

Mine are done.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Grinch? Nah... more like a benevolent holiday tabletop dictator. As for cruel and unusual punishment, that would be forcing them to put together my remaining models which I wouldn't ever make them do. .

Actually wasn't forcing someone to assemble these minis banned by the Geneva convention ?

You mean *these* minis?

Mine are done.

thats it ?

I had recent breakthrough in my paint skillz and I have been eyeing pulling my models off the shelf and attempting to paint the rest of the Valkyries (haven't even primed the Zents yet).

As far as playing goes, I never bought the models for the game, that was just a side bonus we actually got rules for them (which don't look half bad). Occasionally, my brother asks me when we will play, and I just give him the stink-eye. "I thought you gave up on Battletech after that Clan 3050 campaign," I'll sometimes tease him with.

Asterios wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Spoiler:

img]http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2015/3/16/695940_sm-Rrt%2C%20RRT%20Wave%201%20done.jpg[/img]

Mine are done.

thats it ?

For me? Yes. Most of my $40 split would be Wave 2 minis. Plus the Monster.
____

spoilered

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Grinch? Nah... more like a benevolent holiday tabletop dictator. As for cruel and unusual punishment, that would be forcing them to put together my remaining models which I wouldn't ever make them do. .

Actually wasn't forcing someone to assemble these minis banned by the Geneva convention ?

You mean *these* minis?

Mine are done.

thats it ?

For me? Yes. Most of my $40 split would be Wave 2 minis. Plus the Monster.

well explains why your already done, me I got about 100 models done with a couple hundred more to go.

I totally get that. What kinda burns me is the time & effort I spent on building SedWars, RK & RRT minis instead of other stuff, stuff that I might actually play more. Not having to invest massive time in prep makes the ratio of table time vs bench time a lot more attractive!

Why did they use brown plastic colouring? Like seriously, what's wrong with everything grey?

Possibly because the non-character guys on the UEDF were in brown Valkyries, as were most of the destroids - with the exception of the Gladiator.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Grinch? Nah... more like a benevolent holiday tabletop dictator. As for cruel and unusual punishment, that would be forcing them to put together my remaining models which I wouldn't ever make them do. .

Actually wasn't forcing someone to assemble these minis banned by the Geneva convention ?

You mean *these* minis?

Mine are done.

Lucky Git!

I haven't even received mine yet!

[backs off into the corner and cries]

I've been in a round-about email exchange with Kickstarter over the past few days. I outlined my concerns about the status of the project and asked if there was, by their own definition, a breach of the TOS.

Kickstarter the company will not be on our side.

They refuse to say that PB has failed to meet the TOS, probably to cover their bum in case of legal action. I'm afraid my boycott now extends to the Kickstarter site as well now.

darkminstrel wrote:
I've been in a round-about email exchange with Kickstarter over the past few days. I outlined my concerns about the status of the project and asked if there was, by their own definition, a breach of the TOS.

Kickstarter the company will not be on our side.

They refuse to say that PB has failed to meet the TOS, probably to cover their bum in case of legal action. I'm afraid my boycott now extends to the Kickstarter site as well now.

Kickstarter's a lot like Uber and AirBnB and all those other seemingly egalitarian web-based services. They're actually anarcho-capitalist enterprises with a crunchy granola flavored exterior. They take something that existed before, and give you the same thing in a less safe but more convenient form. They act like they are "by the people, for the people", but really it's about getting their cut and absconding off before people realize what they got themselves into.

Eventually the government will catch up and hold that if these companies are going to facilitate these transactions, they have some obligation to both parties to see that the TOS is followed

I just sent this to Kickstarter, as it goes I have come to the conclusion I will not back anything on a site that does not enforce its own rules and will warn anyone I know not to do so too.

I do not feel Palladium has made a good faith effort to complete this project, and I feel Kickstarter has failed to even enforce its own rules, because of this I will no longer back any other project on Kickstarter nor will I endorse any project on Kickstarter, furthermore I will warn any I know to avoid Kickstarter as a possible scam project site, you claim you are not responsible, but you should take responsibility to even enforce your own rules which you have failed to do.

So I claim No Confidence in Kickstarter as a site and will spread that to all I know.

I'm not sure what you guys expect Kickstarter to do at this point to be honest. Kick palladium off so that they can't update anymore (even if they're only useless filler spam)? I agree that Palladium has NOT met their obligations after an almost 3 year delay in reward completion and counting but I don't expect KS to take any action currently. What I expect is for Kickstarter to NOT allow Palladium to kickstart any future projects until they fulfill their existing obligations.

I agree though that this mess of a project has made me very gunshy about backing projects as well. I've only backed one subsequent project at $1.00 CAD since. I firmly believe that KS should make some sort of insurance mandatory at part of their fee structure (increasing it as needed) for new creators or those whose previous efforts were troubled like Palladium. I don't think it'll ever happen though.

 warboss wrote:
I'm not sure what you guys expect Kickstarter to do at this point to be honest. Kick palladium off so that they can't update anymore (even if they're only useless filler spam)? I agree that Palladium has NOT met their obligations after an almost 3 year delay in reward completion and counting but I don't expect KS to take any action currently. What I expect is for Kickstarter to NOT allow Palladium to kickstart any future projects until they fulfill their existing obligations.

I agree though that this mess of a project has made me very gunshy about backing projects as well. I've only backed one subsequent project at $1.00 CAD since. I firmly believe that KS should make some sort of insurance mandatory at part of their fee structure (increasing it as needed) for new creators or those whose previous efforts were troubled like Palladium. I don't think it'll ever happen though.

well my beef with KickStarter is I would like them to enforce their own rules:

1: They state project creators cannot use the project page to advertise products not associated with the project, which PB has continuously done.

2: They state a project creator is to keep the backers informed which obviously PB has failed to do, nor are they probably ever going to do and KS has done nothing.

and there are many more issues, it is because of this I will not back any other project on Kickstarter and have informed them of such, and considering how they handled all of the other complaints about PB they will probably ignore this one too.

Actually, once folks complained to Kickstarter about Palladium's spam "updates" that were just undisguised sales pitches, they stopped. Of course, it wouldn't be a response Palladium style without a screw up so Palladium chose to stop almost all communication once their spam was outed.

As for your #2 (lol at Forar's previous joke), what would you expect them to do? Their only options are to do nothing (the current plan), ban palladium from posting at all because they don't post enough info (obviously counterintuitive), or prevent them from Kickstarting another project (which Palladium hasn't done so moot at the moment). There really are no other options. Do you want Kickstarter to sue Palladium on our behalf? Send Kickstarter employees to protest in front of Palladium's office? Go on a cyberspace hacking spree in conjunction with anonymous to get our money back? There frankly isn't anything KS can do other than annoy palladium with messages they'll just ignore (like they do with ours). Then there is the issue that it is NOT in KS's best interests to do anything currently either. They currently hold no discernable power over Palladium even if they were inclined to act (which they're not).

 warboss wrote:
Actually, once folks complained to Kickstarter about Palladium's spam "updates" that were just undisguised sales pitches, they stopped. Of course, it wouldn't be a response Palladium style without a screw up so Palladium chose to stop almost all communication once their spam was outed.

As for your #2 (lol at Forar's previous joke), what would you expect them to do? Their only options are to do nothing (the current plan), ban palladium from posting at all because they don't post enough info (obviously counterintuitive), or prevent them from Kickstarting another project (which Palladium hasn't done so moot at the moment). There really are no other options. Do you want Kickstarter to sue Palladium on our behalf? Send Kickstarter employees to protest in front of Palladium's office? Go on a cyberspace hacking spree in conjunction with anonymous to get our money back? There frankly isn't anything KS can do other than annoy palladium with messages they'll just ignore (like they do with ours). Then there is the issue that it is NOT in KS's best interests to do anything currently either. They currently hold no discernable power over Palladium even if they were inclined to act (which they're not).

but KS does send an investigative journalist after another project creator after it went bankrupt, which is funny, KS is trying to say they are doing something, after the fact.

 warboss wrote:
I'm not sure what you guys expect Kickstarter to do at this point to be honest.

I want them to state that Palladium has not followed the Terms of Service as outlined on the Kickstarter.com site. If they were to stand up and show that they are taking a stand against companies mis-using them I would feel more confident. Right now they are clearly in CYA mode, hoping they don't get pulled into another debacle. It's a bad move I think.

darkminstrel wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I'm not sure what you guys expect Kickstarter to do at this point to be honest.

I want them to state that Palladium has not followed the Terms of Service as outlined on the Kickstarter.com site. If they were to stand up and show that they are taking a stand against companies mis-using them I would feel more confident. Right now they are clearly in CYA mode, hoping they don't get pulled into another debacle. It's a bad move I think.

I don't expect them to do anything. What I expect is at some point Kickstarter will no longer be able to take this hands off approach to facilitating projects. I don't think they can make a project a "staff pick" and then say "too bad" when the project goes pear shaped. Either the market will force it when confidence in their model of crowd funding falls enough, or some legal determination is made that they have a duty to protect backers from bad faith projects. I acknowledge that that is a optimistic prediction, and in reality it's probably going to keep being terrible for backers rights.

darkminstrel wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I'm not sure what you guys expect Kickstarter to do at this point to be honest.

I want them to state that Palladium has not followed the Terms of Service as outlined on the Kickstarter.com site. If they were to stand up and show that they are taking a stand against companies mis-using them I would feel more confident. Right now they are clearly in CYA mode, hoping they don't get pulled into another debacle. It's a bad move I think.

So you just want a statement declaring that? OK, sound reasonable from a consumer perspective and I obviously agree with the sentiment. Playing the Devil's advocate, the problem is that doing so opens them potentially up to libel lawsuits from the crappy delinquent companies that obviously disagree and will claim the damage to their (already bad) reps cost them financially. The only way kickstarter would voluntarily wade into that mess is if the lack of confidence in the crowd funding platform was costing them more money. They only want to bankroll crowd funding, not adjudicate over it.

 warboss wrote:
The only way kickstarter would voluntarily wade into that mess is if the lack of confidence in the crowd funding platform was costing them more money. They only want to bankroll crowd funding, not adjudicate over it.

to which my statement to them, I already told them that because of PB and their antics and KS's refusal to enforce their own rules I would not be using their site anymore nor would i endorse it and would go so far as to warn people away from doing so.

 CaulynDarr wrote:

darkminstrel wrote:
[..] Kickstarter the company will not be on our side.
They refuse to say that PB has failed to meet the TOS, probably to cover their bum in case of legal action. I'm afraid my boycott now extends to the Kickstarter site as well now.

Kickstarter's a lot like Uber and AirBnB and all those other seemingly egalitarian web-based services. They're actually anarcho-capitalist enterprises with a crunchy granola flavored exterior. They take something that existed before, and give you the same thing in a less safe but more convenient form. They act like they are "by the people, for the people", but really it's about getting their cut and absconding off before people realize what they got themselves into. [..]

Kind of like eBay, Paypal, and Amazon et al really - for the grossest most obvious breeches they can (usually) do wonders if the organization decides something violates their own terms of service.
However, that being said, for the small stuff or less obvious forms of boneheadedness on the part of either a buyer or seller they go into full stall mode if not outright mute knowing that you knowing that is likely to happen ensures 98% of folks won't bother with pursuing an issue in the first place.

Because yeah, they've already gotten their cut, and as with banks quite enjoy that $$$ being just where it is; in their coffers.

 warboss wrote:

darkminstrel wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I'm not sure what you guys expect Kickstarter to do at this point to be honest.

I want them to state that Palladium has not followed the Terms of Service as outlined on the Kickstarter.com site. If they were to stand up and show that they are taking a stand against companies mis-using them I would feel more confident. Right now they are clearly in CYA mode, hoping they don't get pulled into another debacle. It's a bad move I think.

[..] They only want to bankroll crowd funding, not adjudicate over it.

Also playing devil's advocate (at everyone using KS in general), does choosing to be the middle man carry or not carry an accompanying responsibility to those on either side, companies as well as backers, willingly using your services.

_
_
edit: Spelling, it's what separates us from the... SQUIRREL!

just got this from PB:

Palladium Books says:
Dear Richard Steinberg,
We do apologize, but as Palladium has stated
before, Palladium Books is not offering any
refunds on the RRT Kickstarter Backer rewards.
Palladium has successfully fulfilled shipping
Wave One rewards and is working to continue
developing and then shipping Wave 2 items once they are completed.
Palladium has not claimed that the shipment of
RRT Wave One was meant as "proper compensation"
for the RRT Kickstarter rewards and I am not sure
where you got that form, but it is a false/inaccurate interpretation.
Palladium has stated that the first phase of
Robotech RPG Tactics has successfully shipped and
simply established a monetary value, thus far,
for the rewards that have shipped to Backers who
ordered and have received Wave One of the Robotech RPG Tactics rewards.
Second, there is a distinct difference in backing
a Kickstarter and placing an "order" online to
warrant your citing of the FTC which is being
quoted and cited for online "orders." As a RRT
backer you did not place an order, you placed a
pledge on rewards for a fundraising campaign
specific pledge categories. You have received
part of the pledge rewards via the shipment of
Wave One, while we are continuing to improve and
develop the Wave Two rewards pledge and the game
in which the rewards are to be utilized for. We
have publicly listed these objectives and that we
are working on these improvements in Update #
186.
(https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1335688
)
Palladium is continuing to work on RRT
improvements, developing and producing Robotech
RPG Tactics Wave Two in order to fulfill the
Kickstarter, despite delays as itemized in
previous communications and Updates. Palladium
has also stated publicly that it will continuing
to produce and develop publications for its other
RPG gamelines as well. So just because Palladium
has allocated some time to developing and
publishing RPG products doesn't mean that it is
neglecting or ignoring its other obligations and
objectives. We are working diligently on both
fronts, but the level of quality and
manufacturing that is required to handle the
complexity of a miniature game with the
complexity of the high level of detail and
desired poseability for the game pieces is not
the same as you have likened to personal 3-D
printing. There is much more involved.
Thank you,
Charles Walton
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

Well, Kickstarter is in the perfect position I think.

Not responsible if product or "rewards" are sent out or not.
Wait until the target amount of money is hit, take your cut and the creator gets the rest.
Host the site for posting and information.
Really, what could they do to punish?
Only thing I could see is ban a company from use of the KS for new projects but that would be turning away money.

Unless they do the responsible thing and hold all the cash and dole it out in bits as gate targets are met, but that would take too much management and make them part of the process = liability.

Yep, less hands-on the better.
It is a sweet thing they have going.

I think the best thing they could do is force a rather iron-clad agreement on acceptable delays and firming up what "best effort" is and make it truly a deliverable agreement, not "investment".
This is the area where KS is weaseling their way out of things: ensuring a proper contract is drawn holding legal liability to the backers for getting projects done or a refund sent or some provision for a "bankruptcy" type condition if the funds were spent on tooling an fell short. Also things like the project being bought-out from external investment is another thing to look at.

Kickstarter IS a store as far as rewards are concerned, legally I have seen nothing that proves different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey, just noticed in that letter to Asterios that Charles Walton wrote it.
He is a "freelance illustrator" for PB.
Kevin's hands must be hurting, my BBB letters were all from him.

Schroedinger's purchasing/crowdfunding platform.

As to boycotting Kickstarter, I am thinking about it.
They are making some moves to appear more "responsible" but they are the ones holding the "agreement" of what is committed to for a successfully funded project.
They need to weasel less and focus on the up-front agreement and then hand over the signed documents if things fail badly and FTC or legal involvement sets in.
I would say if they firm that up I may come back to KS but never the PB... bridges burned, salted earth...

 Talizvar wrote:

Hey, just noticed in that letter to Asterios that Charles Walton wrote it.
He is a "freelance illustrator" for PB.
Kevin's hands must be hurting, my BBB letters were all from him.

Charles is now the free voice for Palladium since Jeff Quit/fired from them.

 Talizvar wrote:
[..] Hey, just noticed in that letter to Asterios that Charles Walton wrote it.
He is a "freelance illustrator" for PB.
Kevin's hands must be hurting, my BBB letters were all from him.

Or, at least factually, his name is the one appended to it.
But, given the noticeably low amount of spelling/grammatical errors without an accompanying plethora of ™s, ®s, & the like, it might actually not have been the Siembieda-san.....


After all, other empires do find folks willing to provide staffing - even if they have to clone them. (Results may vary, however.)

_
_

I think KS shouldn't get their cut until the project completes. I'd love how to see that would change their stance on late or non-productive KS's.

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, Kickstarter is in the perfect position I think.

Not responsible if product or "rewards" are sent out or not.
Wait until the target amount of money is hit, take your cut and the creator gets the rest.
Host the site for posting and information.
Really, what could they do to punish?
Only thing I could see is ban a company from use of the KS for new projects but that would be turning away money.

That's what I've been saying. They really can't do anything in our case even if they wanted to beyond barring Palladium from further crowdfunding until they make good on their massively delayed existing project... but they won't because they don't want to scare off creators to alternate platforms who have even less fake protection. All I'd expect from them in the future would be to change their TOS for creators to include iron clad clauses that classify when a project has NOT met it's goals... something like if you haven't fulfilled 80% of the rewards (BOTH in terms of monetary value as charged at funding as well as in simple number of separately funded or separately purchaseable rewards and in terms of the number of backers receiving them) within 200% of your delivery estimate, you agree that you have NOT met your obligations and MUST offer proportional refunds to backers. Kickstarter couldn't force creators to actually do it but by making them agree to terms like that (and that's just off the top of my head and not all inclusive obviously) then it could at least be used against them both in court as well as BBB and FTC type filings. They couldn't morally try to weasel out of fulfilling rewards within 10 years just because of the presence of the word "estimate" like Palladium is attempting to do when they had to sign an agreement ahead of time explicitly stating what the failure conditions were. Knowing that they couldn't do something as sleazy as Palladium would encourage most (but not all of course) creators to give more accurate estimates with bigger buffers to safeguard themselves from liability.

That doesn't require any extra effort on the part of KS as they're not liable to enforce it but at least it gives backers something much more ironclad to present as evidence. As it stands right now, KS is in the enviable position of being responsible for nothing ultimately but getting a cut of everything right off the top.

Digging around again:
http://shumakersocialmedia.com/2014/11/12/crowdfunding-disclaimers-arent-adequate-to-avoid-liability-under-u-s-securities-laws/
Nice quote here:

"Reward-based crowdfunding, through sites such as Kickstarter, continues to be available to United States persons (at least at present) because contributors are not viewed as making an investment. Crowdfunding for equity investments, even though contemplated by the JOBS Act, remains unavailable..."

What is said here is that if it truly was investing KS would have been shut down due to falling afoul of investment regulations.
I have to go hunt down again the BBB letter I got from Kevin crowing it is not product but an "investment".
Sorry guy, that hole is well plugged.

Ah! new documents from my fine Canadian government:
https://www.lautorite.qc.ca/files/pdf/reglementation/valeurs-mobilieres/45-108/2015-11-05/2015nov05-45-108-ig-final-acvm-en.pdf
"Liability for untrue statement – non-reporting issuers
10. The crowdfunding offering document required to be filed by an issuer that is not a reporting issuer must contain a contractual right of action against the issuer for rescission and damages that is available to the purchaser if the crowdfunding offering document or other permitted materials made available to the purchaser contains an untrue statement of a material fact.

So can I nail them for delivery date?
Though most of this seems concerned with "securities".

Anyway I will continue my research Tsunami to see if I can find anything a bit more straightforward in nailing PB.

Hang in there you all, it has been great therapy...

 Talizvar wrote:
Digging around again:
http://shumakersocialmedia.com/2014/11/12/crowdfunding-disclaimers-arent-adequate-to-avoid-liability-under-u-s-securities-laws/
Nice quote here:

"Reward-based crowdfunding, through sites such as Kickstarter, continues to be available to United States persons (at least at present) because contributors are not viewed as making an investment. Crowdfunding for equity investments, even though contemplated by the JOBS Act, remains unavailable..."

What is said here is that if it truly was investing KS would have been shut down due to falling afoul of investment regulations.
I have to go hunt down again the BBB letter I got from Kevin crowing it is not product but an "investment".
Sorry guy, that hole is well plugged.

Ah! new documents from my fine Canadian government:
https://www.lautorite.qc.ca/files/pdf/reglementation/valeurs-mobilieres/45-108/2015-11-05/2015nov05-45-108-ig-final-acvm-en.pdf
"Liability for untrue statement – non-reporting issuers
10. The crowdfunding offering document required to be filed by an issuer that is not a reporting issuer must contain a contractual right of action against the issuer for rescission and damages that is available to the purchaser if the crowdfunding offering document or other permitted materials made available to the purchaser contains an untrue statement of a material fact.

So can I nail them for delivery date?
Though most of this seems concerned with "securities".

Anyway I will continue my research Tsunami to see if I can find anything a bit more straightforward in nailing PB.

Hang in there you all, it has been great therapy...

There are also laws against seeking out of state investments under Michigan law.

Got a response from PB to my refund request.

got another response from Chuck:

Every time I open this subforum, I am surprised at just how much this thread has grown compared to the others. I didn't think there was really so much going on with RTT these days to warrant so much discussion, but apparently I underestimated the involvement level of some fans.

I'm still hoping for wave two, but failing that the high drama of a legal tsunami would be more than adequate compensation.

I too look forward to when Wave 2 meets Legal tsunami, people thought Sharknado sucked, they ain't seen nothing yet.

While i would agree that expecting anything from Kickstarter outside of the most egregious "take the money and run" projects is a foolish at best, you do have many of the same complaint avenues against them as well.

And you have another potential resource as well- the CFPB.
The CFPB has a complaint process, has responsibility over financial products (which RRT may not be, but Kickstarter itself is) and has been expanding their reach and throwing their weight around like an 800 pound gorilla

I have had a different thought that might appease some of the RRT backers out there.

We have been shown the futility of asking PB for a refund. So maybe we ought to change tack and contact Bethesda instead.

Maybe after hearing what we have been through, they would be sympathetic enough to our cause to put PB's offices in one of their flagship series?

Who wouldn't like to see PB in "Fallout 5: The Final Excuse" ?

I have a suspicion that if this project is completed at all, it's going to be in PVC resin. They'll sell it as a move to reduce part count, but it's just a cost saving measure because of the loss of detail(not that their APB plastic models held that much detail to begin with).

It's possible that HG isn't OK with that move. I think if it was just about the backers they would have just blown the usual amount of smoke up our orifices and called it the bestest most genius innovation ever in the history of miniature gaming.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Every time I open this subforum, I am surprised at just how much this thread has grown compared to the others. I didn't think there was really so much going on with RTT these days to warrant so much discussion, but apparently I underestimated the involvement level of some fans.
I'm still hoping for wave two, but failing that the high drama of a legal tsunami would be more than adequate compensation.

I think of this little problem like one of those puzzles you are just on the edge of figuring out (or think you are).
It is only a puzzle but you cannot leave it alone.

The models remaining to be done for Wave2 are iconic, they add that final bit of variety to the game to make it interesting.

PB seems to be blissfully unaware of how badly they messed up having these models absent so long.

I am a big fan of stomping robots and Robotech was pretty much my first exposure as a kid and still holds an interest.

All PB had to say is "We are working on it." and we are pretty much doomed.
Those simple words as demonstrated by those turkeys could mean "never", "when we feel like it", "In 10 years time." or "In a year's time.".

As an added interest keeper: they have our money and we do not have all the rewards promised us so like most sane people we are wondering when that will happen.

Most SANE companies like to preserve reputation, keep customers happy and in general like to keep a good record.
Palladium Books appears to have no such worry, they seem to think "this too shall pass" and we will forgive and forget and water under the bridge and all that.
It is hard to digest this kind of insanity so we keep thinking if we poke them the same as any company something will happen... nope.

So yeah, a big hammer like the law seems to be the only reality adjustment they understand but they get a wee bit confused when it Is used on them and not the other way around.
So now I hang my hat on the hope the "legal tsunami" actually happens because I am sure this is the only forum that will get truth out of them and not the unicorns and rainbows Kevin likes to throw around.

So, throwing caution (and my phone bill) to the wind, I called PB last night. Ended up having a half hour chat with Chuck, in which I calmly and clearly laid out my critiques of how they are handling things.

He was patient and agreed with many of my points, but there wasn't much to say beyond the usual party line (it's being worked on behind the scenes, more to show in weeks to come, etc)

While I remained polite, I didn't let the conversation drift complacently either (as an example, pointed out that them working 30 hours a day, 8 days a week was indistinguishable from doing nothing if they couldn't show progress across entire weeks and months). I pointed out that the old weekly updates contrasted poorly with the new months of silence, and that having watched wave one go by for a year, it was quite hard to give benefit of the doubt to these new shifting targets when we weren't seeing the same lead up (declarations of molds being milled, 3D printed prototypes, etc).

That if their silence is based on backer reaction (I noted that compared to "Spartangate", the reaction to the February showcase was generally positively with some suggestions) wasn't helping, and that letting the unpleasable 5 or 10% keep them from sharing info with the more reasonable 90% was counter productive. I pointedly noted Wayne's failure to provide the info he said he would 5 months ago.

Upon hearing that I'd sent an email in October that was never responded to, he went and found it, saying he'd print it off and bring it to the next meeting. I even outright identified myself as one of the critical voices, who was simply calling because after sending emails and KS comments and KS messages and FB comments and Forum comments, I had decided to finally move to another method of reaching out.

So overall it was a fine conversation and I felt I was heard, but at least when chatting with Chuck there wasn't really anything more than we get in the weekly updates; hopeful for the future, working super hard, etc, etc.

Whether or not anything comes of it, I pointedly told them my thoughts and critiques.

It's really sad that someone needs to tell a professional that saying "We're working on it" for 6 months with no visible progress is unacceptable and looks bad to the outside observer.

 Forar wrote:
I even outright identified myself as one of the critical voices, who was simply calling because after sending emails and KS comments and KS messages and FB comments and Forum comments, I had decided to finally move to another method of reaching out.

So overall it was a fine conversation and I felt I was heard, but at least when chatting with Chuck there wasn't really anything more than we get in the weekly updates; hopeful for the future, working super hard, etc, etc.

Whether or not anything comes of it, I pointedly told them my thoughts and critiques.

I did the same thing back in the summer the week after the "restart" of the coversation with backers. I talked with Alex for about 45 minutes and the conversation progressed pretty much the same way. He was pleasant, understanding, and reasonable but communicated nothing of note beyond the company line. Obviously, nothing further came from that reaching out during the "restart" in the half year since regardless of the metric used (product released, communication, attitude, etc). I'd even go so far as to say that the situation has WORSENED since the "restart" as Palladium got a slap on the wrist for spamming adverts as supposed updates and in revenge just largely stopped updating officially almost completely. I suspect you know your chance of success is rated at Kobiayashi Maru levels but figured I'd add this to the conversation and (if my hunch is correct) establish a pattern of ignoring this type of reasonable communication as well.

 Forar wrote:
So, throwing caution (and my phone bill) to the wind, I called PB last night. Ended up having a half hour chat with Chuck, in which I calmly and clearly laid out my critiques of how they are handling things.

Don't have one of those unlimited talk and text cell phone deals ?

 warboss wrote:
I did the same thing back in the summer the week after the "restart" of the coversation with backers. I talked with Alex for about 45 minutes and the conversation progressed pretty much the same way. He was pleasant, understanding, and reasonable but communicated nothing of note beyond the company line. Obviously, nothing further came from that reaching out during the "restart" in the half year since regardless of the metric used (product released, communication, attitude, etc). I'd even go so far as to say that the situation has WORSENED since the "restart" as Palladium got a slap on the wrist for spamming adverts as supposed updates and in revenge just largely stopped updating officially almost completely. I suspect you know your chance of success is rated at Kobiayashi Maru levels but figured I'd add this to the conversation and (if my hunch is correct) establish a pattern of ignoring this type of reasonable communication as well.

Oh, absolutely, it was partially just to actually do something I've been pondering for some time now, partially to finally put an end to the "oh you just have to call them" bs that keeps getting thrown around. Though I'm sure someone will say "oh but you just have to call them and get Wayne or Kevin" to which I say "feth that, I'm not chasing them on the phone to get the perfect storm of availability". We've mocked "call them up" as a source for info for years now, because of that exact reason; their hours do not necessarily coincide with my hours, so people keep saying to call, I did, and whatever does or doesn't come of it, it wasn't much more informative than a weekly update, though not necessarily through any fault of Chuck's.

Asterios wrote:
Don't have one of those unlimited talk and text cell phone deals ?

I'm Canadian. I'm sure such a thing exists, but given that I call the US maybe twice a year (for non-business reasons), I have no reason to get one. Especially since my data plan is the much more valuable part of the package, and changing my phone plan would involve losing that and paying 70% more per month for what I get.

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Don't have one of those unlimited talk and text cell phone deals ?

I'm Canadian. I'm sure such a thing exists, but given that I call the US maybe twice a year (for non-business reasons), I have no reason to get one. Especially since my data plan is the much more valuable part of the package, and changing my phone plan would involve losing that and paying 70% more per month for what I get.

oh saw the US Flag and kept thinking your in US.

You didn't notice it everytime he posts aboot Robotech, eh?

Huh, guess the work system registers from the US still.

Read somewhere on Dakka that this is a known issue and that I can ask a Mod to permanently affix my location, haven't gotten around to it.

To be fair, my location has been "Toronto, Ontario" for literally years, and I definitely used to show up under my proper Maple Leaf. :-(

...and your Canadianhood has been referred to, like, a jillion times.

Also that.

I think word leaked back to Ottawa that Forar was being increasingly less polite and not apologizing for anything and everything when he talked to PB. Ergo, his Canadian citizenship was revoked. The law of Canananadia is very harsh in these matters; if you're going to be even mildly rude, you clearly belong in the US.

Every time I read up on this thread it does make me feel bad for the FLGS around here. Two of the ones I get things at somewhat regularly both have RTT starter boxes and a handful of expansions on the shelves, where they've been for quite a while now. They are asking full retail though, which is part of why they're not really likely to move anytime soon. Thinking back to my interest in the KS I sometimes idly ponder getting the destroids, then I remember this thread and move along without lifting the box.

I asked my FLGS owner if anyone had expressed interest in the game while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to rustle up a game. He said not really but he, as an owner, was curious if he should pick up a copy of the starter and boosters since he also remembered me excitedly stumping for the game in store during the kickstarter. I told him that the follow up products were no where in sight, the manufacturer support ranged from insulting to very poor, and to not bother beyond getting maybe a pack or two max of the destroids for the battletech group that played regularly every two weeks to use as unseen.

 Talizvar wrote:

Most SANE companies like to preserve reputation, keep customers happy and in general like to keep a good record.
Palladium Books appears to have no such worry, they seem to think "this too shall pass" and we will forgive and forget and water under the bridge and all that.
It is hard to digest this kind of insanity so we keep thinking if we poke them the same as any company something will happen... nope.

But this was the sort of behavior they exhibited before the KS.

Pretty remarkable that Kevin received money to continue Palladium after the gross mismanagement leading to the Crisis of Treachery.

 warboss wrote:
I asked my FLGS owner if anyone had expressed interest in the game while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to rustle up a game. He said not really but he, as an owner, was curious if he should pick up a copy of the starter and boosters since he also remembered me excitedly stumping for the game in store during the kickstarter. I told him that the follow up products were no where in sight, the manufacturer support ranged from insulting to very poor, and to not bother beyond getting maybe a pack or two max of the destroids for the battletech group that played regularly every two weeks to use as unseen.

Sad thing about that, is that in my opinion, the new versions of the unseen are leaps and bounds better in visual aesthetics. So this will likely dry up as well, since I am not alone in this view.

Sometimes I wonder, if you took out the people who backed this for BT minis, how many backers would be left?

Me!!! I wanted a consistent set of minis for gaks & grins playing.

Looking on the PB forums I saw reference to a 'zero incident' which seems to be referring to a person. Does anyone know what that was about?

I only backed to get the models. Not to play in BT, but just as models at a size and scale I still stand some chance of being able to make and paint. So I am one of the 'lost' so far as PB would be concerned. If they had not had a pledge level that allowed people to just pick up a few specific models I would not have pledged.

Was never interested in the game, don't have rose-tinted specs so far as PB are concerned, but also didn't know how bad they truly were. All my previous PB products were picked up here in the UK once they were already on sale so I had no idea how long they had been in development or on sale in the US.

And John, it's all Gaks & Grins until PB Grins and Gaks .. on you!

evilsmurf wrote:
Looking on the PB forums I saw reference to a 'zero incident' which seems to be referring to a person. Does anyone know what that was about?

Short answer, he was a backer that called up Palladium, March 18th 2014, and depending on who's side you believe, either verbally abused, or was abused verbally by, Palladium staff. As is usual, the truth is probably somewhere in between. Zero did not come across as particularly credible IMO, but I have doubts that the conversation went exactly as Wayne, who handled the internet communication (Jeff handled the initial phonecall) says it did.

You can read the back and forth starting here and scrolling up.

I find it funny that it's easily found as since that interaction, the Palladium Books account has only made three more comments. While not prolific, they did swing through the comments occasionally, but since the Zero incident, it's been three relatively unhelpful responses.

The Crisis of Treachery

The Zero Incident

At least they can come with cool names for these things!

Morgan Vening wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
Looking on the PB forums I saw reference to a 'zero incident' which seems to be referring to a person. Does anyone know what that was about?

Short answer, he was a backer that called up Palladium, March 18th 2014, and depending on who's side you believe, either verbally abused, or was abused verbally by, Palladium staff. As is usual, the truth is probably somewhere in between. Zero did not come across as particularly credible IMO, but I have doubts that the conversation went exactly as Wayne, who handled the internet communication (Jeff handled the initial phonecall) says it did.

You can read the back and forth starting here and scrolling up.

I find it funny that it's easily found as since that interaction, the Palladium Books account has only made three more comments. While not prolific, they did swing through the comments occasionally, but since the Zero incident, it's been three relatively unhelpful responses.

funny thing Morgan we all thought Zero was banned from the forums there in KS or refunded his money and kicked but it appears he wasn't he just essentially stopped posting except to post a link to another kickstarter, maybe he got back on his meds? or did PB buy him off? (Doubtful), or did he get a C&D ? (highly probable).

 Alpharius wrote:

The Crisis of Treachery

The Zero Incident

At least they can come with cool names for these things!

Agreed.
"The BBB Backer run."
"The Ringleader Legal Tsunami"
"The Direct Call Crisis"
I see many neat naming conventions kicking in,

 Talizvar wrote:
I see many neat naming conventions kicking in,

The Convention Conundrum!

how about "The Backer Revolt" ?

Backer Betrayal.

"The Backer Conspiracy" ?

I vote Backer Betrayal(TM) and Legal Conspiracy(TM).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we also have Rambling Delivery Dates (TM) and Siembieda Non-Updates (TM).

Just thought of it now, the next Kevin Siembieda wall of text can be called:

"KSWOT?"

"The Palladium 2-step"

Ha! borrowing from my avatar:

"Catch the Wave!, 2 slow!"

Brokeback Robotech, A Tale of Company Intrigue....

"Jazz Hands: The Game"

Point Break 2: The Second Wave

Morgan Vening wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
Looking on the PB forums I saw reference to a 'zero incident' which seems to be referring to a person. Does anyone know what that was about?

Short answer, he was a backer that called up Palladium, March 18th 2014, and depending on who's side you believe, either verbally abused, or was abused verbally by, Palladium staff. As is usual, the truth is probably somewhere in between. Zero did not come across as particularly credible IMO, but I have doubts that the conversation went exactly as Wayne, who handled the internet communication (Jeff handled the initial phonecall) says it did.

You can read the back and forth starting here and scrolling up.

I find it funny that it's easily found as since that interaction, the Palladium Books account has only made three more comments. While not prolific, they did swing through the comments occasionally, but since the Zero incident, it's been three relatively unhelpful responses.

Thanks for that.

T-minus 36 hours until absolutely nothing happens on this KS (referring to "A quick note from Kevin" non-update)

 Stormonu wrote:
T-minus 36 hours until absolutely nothing happens on this KS (referring to "A quick note from Kevin" non-update)

Yup. I fully expect more vague statements on progress (we edited a file! we sent an email), some reaffirming just how much they love us and how hard they're working (with nothing tangible to show for either), and a wet noodle repeat of the Q2 date with some sort of plausible deniability adjective like "ideal" or "working" or "potential" added to it somewhere for the inevitable delay. I'd say it's also 50/50 that they'll be asking last minute for someone to run impromptu games at Adepticon since they've apparently submitted no games at all to the con for prereg (at least as of a few weeks ago).

Also, T minus 6 months until absolutely nothing happens on this KS. That should cover the "rerelease" and the ancillary new products they'll try to sell us then (some of which were likely supposed to be free last summer) while giving us no good news on existing wave 2 rewards.

wow, just wow, the PB new weekly update on their site is up and not even a jazz hands mention of RRT in it. sad, just sad think they ran out of excuses.

There is a small mention RRT - not that I believe 'soon' has any meaning coming from Mr Simbieda

"FREE Robotech® RPG Tactics™, paper game pieces, force organization tables, stat cards, rules and special items – coming soon!"

Did it finally dawn on him that endless repeating yourself for so long makes it look like you've accomplished nothing?

 Alpharius wrote:

At least they can come with cool names for these things!

"Business as usual"

Didn't Santa Kevin give us the original spartangate update for xmas 2013? Maybe we're in for that kind of treat?

I'll still have my wave 2:

 warboss wrote:
Didn't Santa Kevin give us the original spartangate update for xmas 2013?

Nah, that was early 2014. I want to say March'ish.

Edit: yup. Late 2013 was showing off prototypes of the Booster Sled, with Support Pods, FPA , and the 2 Waves announcement in early 2014.

Heh, which led me to them not having updates on the KS between Dec 2nd 2014 (about overseas shipping, we all know how well that went), and Jan 13 (ROW! lawl).

This year we're ending on 'you haven't been forgotten'.

*jazz hands*

They have apologized countless times about issues with communication. Stop fething apologizing and just do better so there's nothing to apologize for (at least on that front).

Well this takes the cake Kevin can go on and on about a Office Christmas party but cannot be bothered to tell the backers anything:

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=150033

 Forar wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Didn't Santa Kevin give us the original spartangate update for xmas 2013?

Nah, that was early 2014. I want to say March'ish.

Edit: yup. Late 2013 was showing off prototypes of the Booster Sled, with Support Pods, FPA , and the 2 Waves announcement in early 2014.

Yup...I knew there was some sort of model preview surprise update for xmas 2013

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/707733

but it wasn't the spartangate episode as you said but rather the zentraedi. It's a vain and pointless hope but maybe Palladium will deflate their egos allowing them to finally pull their heads out of their asses and do something meaningful this year.

 warboss wrote:

 Forar wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Didn't Santa Kevin give us the original spartangate update for xmas 2013?

Nah, that was early 2014. I want to say March'ish.

Edit: yup. Late 2013 was showing off prototypes of the Booster Sled, with Support Pods, FPA , and the 2 Waves announcement in early 2014.

Yup...I knew there was some sort of model preview surprise update for xmas 2013

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/707733

but it wasn't the spartangate episode as you said but rather the zentraedi. It's a vain and pointless hope but maybe Palladium will deflate their egos allowing them to finally pull their heads out of their asses and do something meaningful this year.

Wow, I didn't even remember they had the Glaug-eclaire* way back at the end of 2013. That really shows how they've done nothing for close to two years now. If they'd just have gotten off the pot, they could have had this catastrophe done with by now.

* Yes, I know that's wrong. It's intentional.

So in a year or two when PB's RT license runs out will Kevin be able to pocket our money with no consequences, except for their rep?

 Cypher-xv wrote:
So in a year or two when PB's RT license runs out will Kevin be able to pocket our money with no consequences, except for their rep?

with this apathetic backer crowd? yes, if the backers do nothing PB will go on and continue to do what they have been doing for the past 30 years with the consent of their willing fans.

I have outlined what backers are to do till i'm blue in the face, if you guys want to let PB get away with what it is and will do then so be it, I will get my money back but cannot speak for the rest of the backer lot.

Must.. not.. comment... about... what... Rick... does... till... he's... blue... in... the... face... until... 2016....!!!

Palladium will do whatever they want regardless of what backers do. They'll draw this farce out until they lose the license or run out of money as it is likely slowly bleeding away paying some part of every bill they have (you need electricity after all to email once weekly for Robotech and a phone to make a call once a week for the project so Robotech should pay for part of it all for years!).

If we're "lucky", we'll get some janky PVC flash-filled mess of one piece minis in late 2016 or 2017 that make my old battletech unseen starter from the 1980's look nice.

 warboss wrote:
Must.. not.. comment... about... what... Rick... does... till... he's... blue... in... the... face... until... 2016....!!!

Palladium will do whatever they want regardless of what backers do. They'll draw this farce out until they lose the license or run out of money as it is likely slowly bleeding away paying some part of every bill they have (you need electricity after all to email once weekly for Robotech and a phone to make a call once a week for the project so Robotech should pay for part of it all for years!).

If we're "lucky", we'll get some janky PVC flash-filled mess of one piece minis in late 2016 or 2017 that make my old battletech unseen starter from the 1980's look nice.

sorry warboss, you are not lucky you are not getting anything, none of the lazy backers are getting anything, now tell PB Thank You for treating you like crud and go back to doing nothing and taking the lies passed out by PB.

Rick, you only get to feel smug when you actually accomplish something.

 warboss wrote:
Rick, you only get to feel smug when you actually accomplish something.

you are right I do.

Are you saying you got your refund?

I'm saying nothing, no longer my concern nor my care, have fun and good luck.

... *sigh*

There's, what, a dozen backers who read here? Two dozen? Even with the unfamiliar names popping up on the KS comments and updates, we're looking at what, 1% of the backers? 2%? 5%? Even doubled to account for lurkers who read but don't post, we're still talking a fairly small number of people (and not to forget that not everyone who reads/posts is unhappy).

"omg these backers are sooo apathetic" well yeah, and most of them don't give enough of a gak to read/post. There isn't going to be a grand thousand backer uprising, and putting that responsibility on the community as a whole is uncouth. You're not Rick Valjean up on the barricade walls. Like every backer, you have a choice as to what is and isn't acceptable, and what you will or won't do about it.

It'd be nice if we saw a considerable outcry, and frankly the kid gloves they've been handling things with may be reflective of not wishing to risk drawing enough ire to get people motivated in vast numbers (as a Spartangate 2.0 level clusterfeth might).

But let's focus on what we can control; ourselves. And if years of obscurity in the industry isn't going to push PB to change, I doubt a half dozen internet badasses like us are going to put much of a dent in their happy little world.

Edit:

Asterios wrote:
I'm saying nothing, no longer my concern nor my care, have fun and good luck.

Oh, never mind then.

Edit 2: he'll be back.

 Forar wrote:
There's, what, a dozen backers who read here? Two dozen? Even with the unfamiliar names popping up on the KS comments and updates, we're looking at what, 1% of the backers? 2%? 5%? Even doubled to account for lurkers who read but don't post, we're still talking a fairly small number of people (and not to forget that not everyone who reads/posts is unhappy).

FYI, I've been checking in on this thread (and the old one) every now and again since right after the kickstarter ended, but I'm not actually a backer as I missed the original kickstarter by a couple of months (lucky me; I totally would have spent more than I should have if I had known about the kickstarter in time). So I guess not everyone who reads this thread is even a backer. Just, you know, thought I'd mention it for clarity's sake.

Asterios wrote:
I'm saying nothing, no longer my concern nor my care, have fun and good luck.

Almost as much fun as a post from Kevin S.
So the "campaign for justice" has become the "You guess what I did farce.".
Too bad really.

Yeah, then there's the wandering jackasses that just pop in to comment on the latest non-news but who aren't backers either and thus have no standing to file a complaint. If I could I would though, because accountability for creators is a good thing.

I mainly follow threads like this to learn what to look for in a KS project as a red flag before I give away money. This and other projects have reinforced the lesson that after many years of operation, a company is who it is and more money isn't going to change that. PB was known for "over-promise/under-deliver" long before this project, and while they swore up and down that ND was going to be on point, I just didn't believe in PB enough to take the chance. In hindsight, a good choice.

The thread also helps me appreciate how lucky I am in my choices of projects to back. Of the 14 KS projects I've pledged on, I'd say the "worst" was DreamForge Games due to the massive delays (KD:M gets an "honorable" mention here, but I give them more leeway due to doing a game as well as models). However, the creator was communicative and the product when it finally arrived was excellent. Saying that's the worst KS project I've backed would be like walking into a group-therapy session for ex-convicts and going "Yeah, I know what it's like for you guys. When I was 5 my mom gave me a time-out, and that was a hard 30 minutes. Gave me some time to get my head straight, and now with <deity> as my guide I'm just trying to get my life back together..."

Asterios wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Must.. not.. comment... about... what... Rick... does... till... he's... blue... in... the... face... until... 2016....!!!

Palladium will do whatever they want regardless of what backers do. They'll draw this farce out until they lose the license or run out of money as it is likely slowly bleeding away paying some part of every bill they have (you need electricity after all to email once weekly for Robotech and a phone to make a call once a week for the project so Robotech should pay for part of it all for years!).

If we're "lucky", we'll get some janky PVC flash-filled mess of one piece minis in late 2016 or 2017 that make my old battletech unseen starter from the 1980's look nice.

sorry warboss, you are not lucky you are not getting anything, none of the lazy backers are getting anything, now tell PB Thank You for treating you like crud and go back to doing nothing and taking the lies passed out by PB.

I'm sorry, but the $60 I'm out from 2 years ago doesn't justify-to me-calling down the authority of the United States government or hiring a lawyer to forge brand new legal precedent. I'm pretty cool with Palladium's reputation being thoroughly and utterly trashed in the gaming community. I only wish that they would just admit defeat and stop blowing smoke.

My sympathies are with people who have lost more money on this. And I support any efforts you guys make to get your money back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And lets be clear. If you have gotten a refund and are not telling us if you have or not. Then you are being just as selfish. If Palladium issued you a refund, they are entitled to issue one to anyone who asks.

You could have very well denied any offer of a refund if an NDA was attached and still moved ahead with legal action.

 warboss wrote:
Rick, you only get to feel smug when you actually accomplish something.

So, now this is a visualization of a "legal tsunami"?

But let's focus on what we can control; ourselves. And if years of obscurity in the industry isn't going to push PB to change, I doubt a half dozen internet badasses like us are going to put much of a dent in their happy little world.

Agreed. Which is what I was saying would happen all along...

I guess I was right after all.

His last post sure looks like he got his refund, and possibly a NDA to go with it. Basically, it looks like they got way to close for PB's comfort.

The truth will not be known, unless he comes out and says something about it.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
His last post sure looks like he got his refund, and possibly a NDA to go with it. Basically, it looks like they got way to close for PB's comfort.

The truth will not be known, unless he comes out and says something about it.

In re-reading his past few posts, I agree with that PB refunded him for his silence. Totally reasonable settlement, and exactly the expected result. Anybody who thought otherwise just doesn't get how things work.

I assume that there is a clawback provision if he says anything about it. Possibly liquidated damages in excess of the actual refund amount, due to breach of confidentiality. If a group of backers were to cover the clawback and damages, he might say something, but even then, I'm not sure that would be a legally-advisable move on his part. Intent of a deliberate breach could be cause for further / enhanced damages, and he would no longer hold the legal / moral high ground.

I don't expect him to post anything further anywhere, nor do I expect him to return any PMs on the subject; I anticipate that his ongoing silence will speak volumes.

If people wanted details, they should have worked with him prior to the legal notice being sent.

Anyhow, congrats to Rick, assuming that he got refunded. Even if he didn't and is simply in a "quiet period" after notice / filing, that's something I'd congratulate him on. You see, unlike PB, he actually did what he said what he would.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
His last post sure looks like he got his refund, and possibly a NDA to go with it. Basically, it looks like they got way to close for PB's comfort.

The truth will not be known, unless he comes out and says something about it.

If you hear hoof beats, exlude horses before you jump to the conclusion of zebras. He was asked to put up or shut up. The simplest explanation is that he is finally choosing the latter.

 warboss wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
His last post sure looks like he got his refund, and possibly a NDA to go with it. Basically, it looks like they got way to close for PB's comfort.

The truth will not be known, unless he comes out and says something about it.

If you hear hoof beats, exlude horses before you jump to the conclusion of zebras. He was asked to put up or shut up. The simplest explanation is that he is finally choosing the latter.

Yes, but the "it is no longer my concern nor care" that gets me. It doesn't sound like a "I'll shut up now" comment.



If you are in a region with Zebras, then maybe you should think Zebra before you think horse.

Sure it could be either one, but don't exclude one of the options just because it doesn't fit your beliefs. What I have read, and the implications of the words used, I believe he got his refund, with a NDA attached. Do I know for sure? No, but then neither do you. (unless you are a member of one side or the others legal team or one of the parties involved)

From:



to:



for only $120!

Of course the real answer iis that having got his own Wave 2 created (and later series) he has been offered and accepted the role of design and miniature production expert from Kevin for the princely sum of 30 pieces of silver.

Just a gentle bit of joshing , as we awaiit the "Mghty One's"Christmas address.

Which will be a true RPG scenario of the goodly King beset on all sides by evil and trecherous minions - not to mention those peasants wanting something or other he forgets what. However help is on hand from his hand picked band of White Nits - sorry typo I meant Knights.

THe go forth with the terrifying warcry "We are the knights who say "No" and beat the serfs up with rolled up copies of the Rifter

 megatrons2nd wrote:


Yes, but the "it is no longer my concern nor care" that gets me. It doesn't sound like a "I'll shut up now" comment.



If you are in a region with Zebras, then maybe you should think Zebra before you think horse.

Sure it could be either one, but don't exclude one of the options just because it doesn't fit your beliefs. What I have read, and the implications of the words used, I believe he got his refund, with a NDA attached. Do I know for sure? No, but then neither do you. (unless you are a member of one side or the others legal team or one of the parties involved)

Or perhaps aliens abducted the REAL rick and replaced him with a poorly designed multipart copy with seams all across every ventral surface. He no longer cares because he is a low res 3d print glued and assembled multiple times by Wayne until he got something close enough. This life model decoy rickopy has access to his dakka account and is posting now. Do I know for sure? No, but then neither do you. (unless you've performed detailed genetic and material testing on "rick" both before and after). You see how the lack of any facts can be used to justify almost anything? The absence of proof is NOT proof. Either way, everyone wins if a refund is "no longer his concern". I welcome his further posts about his hobby efforts though.

I was thinking of Rick reading Kevin the Riot Act a la Sam in Pulp Fiction.

There are rumours it was Kevin Siembida artwork in the briefcase from Pulp Fiction.
Jesus Christ, is there some way to fix it when some dill weed posts a giant image and blows the whole page out on a mobile device?

Joyboozer wrote:
There are rumours it was Kevin Siembida artwork in the briefcase from Pulp Fiction.
Jesus Christ, is there some way to fix it when some dill weed posts a giant image and blows the whole page out on a mobile device?

Pulp Fiction the movie would indeed be an appropriate reference as it probably dates from the time of the missing work of artTM. As for the second part, you could of course upgrade from your megaversal quality browser to one that autoresizes. I recommend opera if your bandwith is limited or chrome if not (on android of course... no idea able the apple ecosystem if you even have a choice there).

Also, thanks to your post, I now know it is safe to type a certain pants on head anatomical insult at dakka because it autocorrects it to the spice dillweed.

"I'm going to take down Palladium Books! You'll see!" -Asterios

"Yeah, sure you are...good luck with that..." - Capt K

And I was the unrealistic and delusional one...LOLz


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So true.

 Alpharius wrote:
From:



to:



for only $120!

 warboss wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
There are rumours it was Kevin Siembida artwork in the briefcase from Pulp Fiction.
Jesus Christ, is there some way to fix it when some dill weed posts a giant image and blows the whole page out on a mobile device?

Pulp Fiction the movie would indeed be an appropriate reference as it probably dates from the time of the missing work of artTM. As for the second part, you could of course upgrade from your megaversal quality browser to one that autoresizes. I recommend opera if your bandwith is limited or chrome if not (on android of course... no idea able the apple ecosystem if you even have a choice there).

Also, thanks to your post, I now know it is safe to type a certain pants on head anatomical insult at dakka because it autocorrects it to the spice dillweed.

I'm not sure what word you're thinking of, I typed merijeek

Joyboozer wrote:
There are rumours it was Kevin Siembida artwork in the briefcase from Pulp Fiction.
Jesus Christ, is there some way to fix it when some dill weed posts a giant image and blows the whole page out on a mobile device?

It was all part of my master plan! I figured we needed a giant sized hunk of serenity.

It worked! My serenity was intense!

Serenity?


Dude, that doesn't work. Serenity now, insanity later.

Whelp, the Riquisition will have to wait, because we've got a weekly newsletter on our hands!

... except it says literally nothing about RRT. Nada. The only references in it to Robotech are one of the 'messages from grab bag buyers', the Expeditionary Marines book, and RRT's usual catalog listing, given a prominent place of honour at the bottom of the page with only the print on demand stuff getting a less prestigious spot (okay and some PFRPG book).

Sooooo back to what you were up to I guess.

Edit: oh, also, we all called it, the grab bags are extended to the 11th. So that's another 2 weeks or so that they'll just be 'shipping like madmen' and will probably be too busy to do anything but work that warehouse and making gamers around the world grin and giggle like small children with glee and loving adoration...

*jazzhands!*

Edit 2. Oh. My. God. Has anyone ever noticed anything weird about their newsletter url?

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=822%3Apalladium-booksr-weekly-update-december-23-2015&catid=52%3Aweekly-updates&Itemid=183

Here, I'll snip out the part I'm talking about; Apalladium-booksr-weekly-update

booksr?

OH MY GOD THEY HAVE THE ® IN THE FETHING UPDATE URL!

Yeah, I just read the non-update. I'd could gloat about calling the extension of the grab bag but it's just simple pattern recognition; they do it every time they have a big offer. Also, there is the long part about mental illness in the post that I can't help but think that it is there at least partially to elicit sympathy for Palladium. Now, I won't make light of the actual content because it is a serious issue but I can honestly say that I think so little of the company that I really was expecting a "so cheer yourself up by picking up a grab bag this season!" at the end. For once in 2015, Palladium exceeded my very low expectations and didn't include a tacky sales pitch within the same paragraph at least; they instead put in one or two carriage returns before continuing the hard sell on the next RPG book.

Either way, none of this is a surprise and we'll finish out 2015 just like we started it... with no wave 2 product in hand and wondering when the hell we'll be getting any real info about it.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Merry Christmas to you as well!

And yeah, I noticed the bit about mental illness. While sadly appropriate for the season (depression and other illnesses can be particularly rough around the holidays), ever since the bit they wrote up about Paris, it still strikes me as strange to have a big Public Service Announcement in the middle of their copy-pasted sales pitch. It's tonally inconsistent.

A murmur might be a far better place to put such a thing, though I suppose the newsletter probably reaches the highest number of people.

Still, as much as I can appreciate when a company acts in a responsible fashion, there's something just a bit off about these bits.

 Forar wrote:
Merry Christmas to you as well!

And yeah, I noticed the bit about mental illness. While sadly appropriate for the season (depression and other illnesses can be particularly rough around the holidays), ever since the bit they wrote up about Paris, it still strikes me as strange to have a big Public Service Announcement in the middle of their copy-pasted sales pitch. It's tonally inconsistent.

A murmur might be a far better place to put such a thing, though I suppose the newsletter probably reaches the highest number of people.

Still, as much as I can appreciate when a company acts in a responsible fashion, there's something just a bit off about these bits.

Thanks! And, yeah, it just feels off but I'll admit that I'm biased as to how I interpret Palladium's actions and motives due to how badly they've treated backers while simultaneously pretending to occupy some sort of morale high ground. I agree it would have been more appropriate as a murmur post on their forums. I don't have any issue with it in a weekly update but I do think it detracts from the message to sandwich it in the middle between two large sections of pure sales pitches. It would have been better and more authentic appearing if they had just ended the update at that point instead of copy pasting several dozen sales pitches after it. Eh, whatever. I don't wish the company or its employees ill but I just want my remaining rewards so I can be done with dealing with them likely forever (barring some huge robotech scene suddenly popping up in my FLGS).

 warboss wrote:
Yeah, I just read the non-update. I'd could gloat about calling the extension of the grab bag but it's just simple pattern recognition; they do it every time they have a big offer. Also, there is the long part about mental illness in the post that I can't help but think that it is there at least partially to elicit sympathy for Palladium. Now, I won't make light of the actual content because it is a serious issue but I can honestly say that I think so little of the company that I really was expecting a "so cheer yourself up by picking up a grab bag this season!" at the end. For once in 2015, Palladium exceeded my very low expectations and didn't include a tacky sales pitch within the same paragraph at least; they instead put in one or two carriage returns before continuing the hard sell on the next RPG book.

While they didn't put the sales pitch into the mental illness article, I do find it a little tone deaf to talk mental illness, put it at the very bottom of the newsletter (but as you point out, above the copypasta advertisements) instead of a place of prominence, directly below the two full pages of textual fellatio from fans, and to have the second bold headline of the page use a term that makes light of mental illness (UPDATE: We’ve been shipping like madmen). Sure, it's a minor quibble, I'm not clutching pearls and shouting "Won't somebody think of the children!" but these people are supposed to be professional communicators. They SHOULD know better. But three years of following this campaign, we know they don't.

But that's not to say the extension of the sales pitch isn't without funny. Of course it's not about them needing more money. Or even about wanting to give the fans more time. It's about their fans being so selfless and awesome that PB are being selfless and awesome by extending the sale. They also make mention of people who didn't know, or just forgot. Which is particularly funny to me, given how often he mentions it, over and over again across every Update they have. I specifically like the way he inserted the Grab Bag store URL into that entry four separate times, using four separate tags (this amazing offer, Palladium Surprise Package, Christmas Surprise Package, and Click here).

To me, he's Mona Lisa Saperstein (Parks and Recreation), and his fans are the long suffering Dr Saperstein. MONEY PLEASE!

I just found the whole mention distasteful. Why drag it into a commercial email? It's neither here nor there, which pretty much describe every bloody PB product I can think of.

They have extended the grab bags sale every year.

Well, it should be said: Merry Christmas to you all!

May we get a Wave 2 present one of these years.
I appreciate this twisted form of therapy we perform in this forum.
The cast of characters here I have grown to appreciate.
Hopefully the moderators can hesitate a little longer before a lock... this kickstarter may take a while to finish if at all.

Well, maybe Rick got his Christmas gift from PB, we can always look on the bright side to his $120 and some measure of closure to his rants (it could not have been good for him).

I really should have sent that lump of coal to PB... ah the regrets, Rick may be right about that apathy thing.
There is always next year, or I can borrow a page from PB and do Christmas in July!

Maybe I will spread Christmas cheer and buy that one lonely, long dusty, RRT box at my local hobby shop, just to do them a favor.

Bye all.

Well lets forget about PB for a little while

Merry Xmas evryone and hoping ypu and yours have a wonderful time

Merry Christmas. Kevin bless us, everyone.


That out of the way, if you are in the US and you have some leftover Valkyrie bits you don't want, please let me know. I'm mostly looking for the fighter and guardian sprue spare heads, forearms and extra missiles. I can't really justify paying much more than shipping, but I can trade stuff. Anyone interested?

If nobody else can hook you up, let me know. I'm in the frozen north, but sending some spare bits wouldn't be particularly expensive.

 Forar wrote:
If nobody else can hook you up, let me know. I'm in the frozen north, but sending some spare bits wouldn't be particularly expensive.

Thanks! I appreciate the offer.

Well it's finally official confirmation to what a lot of people have suspected over the years, Uncle Kev isn't quite right in the head.

Not going to bag on it as it's a serious condition, but manic depression bipolar disorder does explain a lot.

Uh huh. Conveniently whipped out as a shield as more and more people get tired of his crap.

How shocking.

Disgusting, really.

I actually have less sympathy for PB now.

wait Kev is manic/depressive bipolar? whered this come from?

ok did some more tweaks on my Lancer 2's my version 7's are on the right while version 8 is on the left, also the VHT cannon is new new version to clear up some issues, your thoughts ?




Also my latest Cat's Eye painted up:

chaos0xomega wrote:
wait Kev is manic/depressive bipolar? whered this come from?

I'm not sure if that is the condition he has had to deal with or if people are making armchair diagnoses, but he admits to having depression and participating in therapy (and I can't fault him for that, it's important to get help if you're struggling) in the latest PBWU.

Below his carnival barker Giftbag whatsit, and all the accolades from fans, and above the cut and paste catalogue.

chaos0xomega wrote:
wait Kev is manic/depressive bipolar? whered this come from?

People have been stating for years that his actions are a bit erratic and tend to swing in extremes, which is often an indicator of those disorders.

Then in the latest PB slop pile:

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=822%3Apalladium-booksr-weekly-update-december-23-2015&catid=52%3Aweekly-updates&Itemid=183

Surviving Depression, especially at Christmas time

The holiday season is a time of joy for most people, but for some it is a time of spiraling darkness that threatens to consume everything.

I’m writing this for you: The people lost to depression. Please don’t give up. I have had my own struggles with depression. I was able to find my way out, but I know many people – dear people – still engulfed by depression. A few seem lost in it and I worry for them. Others fight a difficult and debilitating ongoing battle with it.

Part of the problem is our loved ones don’t understand depression or they are scared by it – or more to the point, seeing their loved ones change before their eyes. Fading away into the shadows and silence.

I think the average person thinks of depression as feeling sad and down, or angry. I mean, we’ve all felt depressed, right? We know what that feels like. Except that’s not “clinical depression.” For one thing, you don’t snap out it after a few hours or a bad day or two.

Depression is more like despair. I’ve heard depression described as being paralyzed, but that is not really accurate. You feel numb and disconnected. You have a sense of what’s going on around you. You know you should be doing something, but you are helpless to do anything about it. You can’t deal with it. You are there as a spectator to your own, slow motion 100 car pile-up that you cannot seem to avoid. So you do nothing, because you can’t do anything else. And that makes you more angry and sad. More despondent and overwhelmed. It is as if someone has stolen your joy. The spark that motivates you and makes life worth living.

Before long, you lose yourself inside your despair and problems – you shut yourself off to the world around you and the people you love. You don’t call. You don’t visit. They think it is because you don’t care, when it’s really you care too much. You feel worthless and you don’t want to burden them. Besides, you don’t know what help is available exactly, or what to do. And when you sink farther into the darkness, or a loved one tries to help, you get angry at them. You may snap at them, call them names, yell, or just snarl or moan and say, “I’m fine. Please, leave me alone.” Or “I can’t deal with this right now.” Before crawling back into some corner where you just want to be left alone.

Isolation is bad. Don’t close yourself off. Try to talk to someone. Anyone who cares. They love you. They need you. Try to find your joy. Anything that brings you joy. (NOT drugs or booze! That’s not joy.) And do NOT think this is the end. Don’t you dare give up. Seek help. You may need professional help. It is very, very difficult to snap yourself out of depression and come to functioning terms with it. In many cases, it’s impossible without professional help – especially if your depression is the result of a chemical imbalance inside of you or emotional trauma.

Please do not be ashamed of needing help. If you had the flu or broke your arm, you would see a doctor. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. Even today there remains a stigma about seeing a therapist and/or psychiatrist. The first talks and helps you come to understand what you are going through and ways to deal with it. The second is a medical doctor who prescribes medication. Don’t make excuses for not getting help, that’s the depression tightening its grip on you. Fight it. No, money is not an excuse either. Find a free clinic, talk to a friend, a family member, a priest, your flippin’ family doctor, anyone who can help you – who can toss you that life line. Do it. And if you are feeling suicidal, call the free programs. Call a loved one. Life is precious. YOU are precious. Help is there.

Tens of millions of people (probably more) suffer from mental illness. Oh, there is that ugly, ugly, word, “mental illness.” You may be thinking, “I don’t want mental illness.” Well, you don’t want cancer either, but if you had it, you would go to the doctor, get treatment and fight like the dickens to beat it. This is no different. If the word is too horrible and embarrassing, call it something else, something with less of a stigma, but please get help for it.

Maybe this will help you: I, Kevin Siembieda, have seen a therapist off and on for years; Rob Justice, a great guy. We even became friends. He helped me beyond measure to get through some very difficult times: My divorce, the Crisis of Treachery and other things. Before that, my son, Adam, was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder and we saw a family counselor who helped. Erick Wujcik battled manic depression his entire life. His periods of depression, usually lasting 2-3 years at a time, were terrible for him, but he fought through it. Never gave up. Found what gave him joy and kept him going. Erick is the one who introduced me to Rob. Palladium editor, Alex Marciniszyn, has managed his anxiety and depression for more than 30 years now. You can too. Trust me. Trust us on this, you can make your life better.

The hustle and bustle of Christmas, the stress of family, the joy all around you that is somehow eluding YOU, can push you into despair and suicidal thoughts. Please, don’t. Please, seek help. Please, turn to the people who love you, as well as seek professional guidance. People care. I care or I wouldn’t be putting myself out there and writing this. You are not alone. Things can get better. It might not be easy, but it is worth the fight. You don’t need to be strong. You don’t need to hide your secret depression (just the opposite), but you do need to fight it and find help. To find joy again.

Hang in there and may the holidays bring you joy and hope and love. Merry Christmas and a better New Year.

– With Love and Concern, Kevin Siembieda

Asterios wrote:
ok did some more tweaks on my Lancer 2's my version 7's are on the right while version 8 is on the left, also the VHT cannon is new new version to clear up some issues, your thoughts ?

My thoughts would be that this belongs in the Dakka P&M Blog section.

~Eric

Yeah, the depression card is a bit of a half attempt.
He points to the various events as his problem rather than something he may have from within.
Papa Kevin is concerned for the rest of his challenged fan/friends.

It is so nice to point out the problems others are having and he is so concerned when most of those problems may have been caused by Kevin, still thinking he is a Narcissist, these other conditions just do not wash.
He went to see a family counselor after finding out his kid has ADHD... my eldest does, you just need to learn some new teaching techniques and see what can be done to mitigate his challenges.
Just a different way of thinking, at least it is an understandable "condition", a fully functioning way of life, just different from the norm.

I am sure as things get under pressure for him we will see the great wall of text and it may be a "poor me" session until he feels confident enough to blame someone for the troubles.

I just want wave 2. I don't really care for his situation at all. Normally, I would but in all honesty, the stuff that PB has done under Kevin has made me not give a damn.

He really has dug his own grave. When he talks about working hmself to death, its not on things that are creative, they are standard business side things. He NEEDS to recognize he's no longer advancing the company, he's just doing day-to-day, and he's overwhelmed and overworked. Delegation is the only thing that will get his company back on track, but he's too much about himself he will never do that, and the company will continue to shrivel, and eventually die with him.

Just checking in, can I assume wave 2 is inbound on the same boat as plastic battle sisters and WHF 9th starter sets?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Just checking in, can I assume wave 2 is inbound on the same boat as plastic battle sisters and WHF 9th starter sets?

Yes, it's all on the Eldridge.

Joyboozer wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Just checking in, can I assume wave 2 is inbound on the same boat as plastic battle sisters and WHF 9th starter sets?

Yes, it's all on the Eldridge.

I had to google that.

Kudos.

How hard is it really to run that business?

I almost found myself listing all the menial tasks.
It is all no big deal, just a bigger version of your own finances.

The only time it gets stressful, just like in your own life, is when money is tight.

They do not advertise.
They do not innovate.
They do not broaden their IP product base beyond RPG (RRT is almost an exception but it is treated like the black sheep).
They do not expand their staff with new skill sets (or they do not last long).
They do not handle criticism in a professional way (respond with a viewpoint, accept and take action...).

The company has problems because it is run as a dysfunctional person would run his own life.

So neighbor Kevin had a great idea for some thingy's he wanted to make, we wanted some too and gave him some money with the understanding we get some.
He got distracted by something shiny and was also very happy to have some money on-hand so was in no hurry to finish his project.
So he is busy trying to not make eye contact or run into the house every time we go out to mow the lawn.
At some point he will have to do something but he is hoping we will forget.

I just get upset when people try to make things seem harder than they really are to justify their own inflated opinion of themselves or at least their "image".
Usually when someone has a grip on a company that tight is because they do not want to be discovered of how much of a sham they really are.

Anyway... yes, wave 2 talk would be very nice.

So, wild ass guesses welcomed. Think we'd get anything concrete for the first possible update in 2016? It's coming up in 2 days.

Still grab bag season. Nothing else is getting done.

 Lynx7725 wrote:
So, wild ass guesses welcomed. Think we'd get anything concrete for the first possible update in 2016? It's coming up in 2 days.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

I haven't laughed that much since they had the vote to sell at Gencon, then missed it by a mile, thanks.

He's really hit 'rock bottom' if he's trying to hide behind a legitimate serious illness.

It is rather despicable to attempt to do this too as depression is something that affects many, many people.

Which is not to say that he doesn't suffer from it, but it is more than a stretch to bring it up now, after...how many days since the last meaningful Wave 2 update and after how many broken promises?

 Talizvar wrote:
How hard is it really to run that business?

Actually, as some one who runs a business, yeah it can be pretty hard.

However, he needs to say something about Wave 2.

 Alpharius wrote:
He's really hit 'rock bottom' if he's trying to hide behind a legitimate serious illness.

It is rather despicable to attempt to do this too as depression is something that affects many, many people.

Which is not to say that he doesn't suffer from it, but it is more than a stretch to bring it up now, after...how many days since the last meaningful Wave 2 update and after how many broken promises?

Sounds like a reason to check the scoreboard!

Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **175**
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 305
Days since the campaign ended: 955

Days until the end of Q2 2016: 183 (current "ideal")
Days until Gencon 2016: 216
Days until the end of 2016: 367

Usual caveats and addendums apply (CNY etc).

Nearly six months since we were supposed to get a rundown of the project, and 10 months since they showed us anything substantial. That's not a coincidence or an accident, they don't want to show us something. I don't buy for a second they could both put a year and a half of hard hours into this (yes yes, I'm aware of the breaks for Gencon and grab bags and stuff, point stands) and simultaneously have nothing tangible to share.

 Easy E wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
How hard is it really to run that business?

Actually, as some one who runs a business, yeah it can be pretty hard.

However, he needs to say something about Wave 2.

Oh, running a business is surely a lot of work.

But when a company constantly brings up how many decades they've been at it, presumably they've refined most of the day to day stuff down. They don't get to bank on that experience and then hide behind 'omg this is just soooo haaaaard you guyyyyyyys'.

And let's be real, they release like half a dozen books a year (including the Rifters, which are submitted material), it's not like they're writing and editing a prodigious (or even particularly impressive) amount of material week to week.

Yup, most of us are ending 2015 just like we did 2014... waiting and wondering about the Robotech wave 2 rewards. The only new thing this year is wondering if the year end weekly update will contain a public service message about the importance of yearly prostate exams for males after age 40 (Palladium's demographic) bookended by sales pitches for grab bags and the next rifter issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:

Sounds like a reason to check the scoreboard!

Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **175**
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 305
Days since the campaign ended: 955

Days until the end of Q2 2016: 183 (current "ideal")

So many pathetic tipping points and milestones that we're about to reach. For instance, we're approaching 1,000 days since we pledged but yet only have about half the sculpts that we were promised. We're also just 4 days away from reaching the equilibrium between the days they'll have left to fully deliver wave 2 in their current sham schedule and the number of days since they promised to give us a meaningful update on all the pieces.

Y'know, looking back at PB's updates on the KS and seeing that they had a multi-part model of the Glaug-Eldaire at the end of 2013 really highlights that they have done nothing whatsover since Wave 1 left the factory (the Glaug-Eldaire was one of the models they showed the sprue breakdown this last Feb).

To me, its a pretty clear indication they no longer have the funds to do anything with this KS - in the fact there's been no other physical "test" models past the 3D render point - and they are just dragging us along in the self-deluded idea they'll somehow, somewhere along the way get enough money to finish this hose-job.

 Stormonu wrote:
Y'know, looking back at PB's updates on the KS and seeing that they had a multi-part model of the Glaug-Eldaire at the end of 2013 really highlights that they have done nothing whatsover since Wave 1 left the factory (the Glaug-Eldaire was one of the models they showed the sprue breakdown this last Feb).

To me, its a pretty clear indication they no longer have the funds to do anything with this KS - in the fact there's been no other physical "test" models past the 3D render point - and they are just dragging us along in the self-deluded idea they'll somehow, somewhere along the way get enough money to finish this hose-job.

I could be wrong, but didn't they sell of Rifts recently? To a legitimate company that is going to rework it with real rules?

 Theophony wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Y'know, looking back at PB's updates on the KS and seeing that they had a multi-part model of the Glaug-Eldaire at the end of 2013 really highlights that they have done nothing whatsover since Wave 1 left the factory (the Glaug-Eldaire was one of the models they showed the sprue breakdown this last Feb).

To me, its a pretty clear indication they no longer have the funds to do anything with this KS - in the fact there's been no other physical "test" models past the 3D render point - and they are just dragging us along in the self-deluded idea they'll somehow, somewhere along the way get enough money to finish this hose-job.

I could be wrong, but didn't they sell of Rifts recently? To a legitimate company that is going to rework it with real rules?

I think they licensed some properties to the Savage Worlds people, though I'm doubtful that'll amount to a whole lot of money up front, and be more a royalty thing. If it goes gangbusters, it might pull in some money, but I'm expecting they're expecting that it'll more be getting sales of existing product (ie, people loving the SW version, and buying PB sourcebooks to flesh out the campaign) than an income stream in and of itself.

As for the Glaug Eldare Stormonu mentioned, that was a pre-production prototype. Essentially a 3D printed model of what it should look like, and is fairly early in the design process. So, the sprue breakdown from ten months ago was actually "progress", just over an elongated timeline (probably using a "geological" timeframe).

Also, should be noted, they had a 3DPPP of the Female Power Armor, at the same time. But you can get them now, for just the low low price of $22 per ($66+ shipping per squad!) if you're a backer. I'm sure Kevin will announce a sale for the masses again soon, though. It's only been a month or since they last offered it publicly.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Y'know, looking back at PB's updates on the KS and seeing that they had a multi-part model of the Glaug-Eldaire at the end of 2013 really highlights that they have done nothing whatsover since Wave 1 left the factory (the Glaug-Eldaire was one of the models they showed the sprue breakdown this last Feb).

To me, its a pretty clear indication they no longer have the funds to do anything with this KS - in the fact there's been no other physical "test" models past the 3D render point - and they are just dragging us along in the self-deluded idea they'll somehow, somewhere along the way get enough money to finish this hose-job.

I could be wrong, but didn't they sell of Rifts recently? To a legitimate company that is going to rework it with real rules?

I think they licensed some properties to the Savage Worlds people, though I'm doubtful that'll amount to a whole lot of money up front, and be more a royalty thing. If it goes gangbusters, it might pull in some money, but I'm expecting they're expecting that it'll more be getting sales of existing product (ie, people loving the SW version, and buying PB sourcebooks to flesh out the campaign) than an income stream in and of itself.

As for the Glaug Eldare Stormonu mentioned, that was a pre-production prototype. Essentially a 3D printed model of what it should look like, and is fairly early in the design process. So, the sprue breakdown from ten months ago was actually "progress", just over an elongated timeline (probably using a "geological" timeframe).

Also, should be noted, they had a 3DPPP of the Female Power Armor, at the same time. But you can get them now, for just the low low price of $22 per ($66+ shipping per squad!) if you're a backer. I'm sure Kevin will announce a sale for the masses again soon, though. It's only been a month or since they last offered it publicly.

No, on the Glaug, they have a gray plastic (like the battlepods), multipart model. The second to last comment on update #122 confirms that it isn't a 3D printed model.

Palladium Books on Dec 31, 2013 wrote:
@Forar: True, but that was a 3D print directly from the sculpt. This is assembled from the parts broken down as they will be for manufacture. A lot of engineering work has taken place between the two, and some details modified and adapted for manufacturing purposes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm...the more that I look at that model on a larger monitor, I realize the parts were 3D printed - not from a sprue, but it wasn't "cast from whole" - it is made of the parts breakdown we saw in the Febuary 2015 update.

Okay, I'm looking at the Kickstarter comments, and they're deleting Jorel's comments left and right. I don't care what *exactly* he said, but I'm curious as to the gist. Anyone care to fill me in?

If so, thanks. If it's not cool here, no problem.

I believe they were inappropriate insults aimed at Mike and James - essentially calling them PB shills.

I haven't followed the kickstarter comments in months but unless Jorel has significantly changed his posting style then it was probably largely pointless insults and jabs at another poster named Jaymz.

Also, the year end weekly update on mental health issues from Palladium with a message from the grab bag sponsor arrived in my mailbox. Of course, nothing useful about remaining Robotech rewards 2 years overdue.

I don't think his language helped either, why Kickstarter doesn't have a swear filter is beyond me.

They don't really seem to mind vulgarity in general, which is a fairly realistic way of using the site with adults (keeping in mind that backers must have a credit card or other financial arrangements meaning I imagine the vast majority are either adults or at least vetted to a degree).

But that guy takes it too far, personal attacks without provocation (simply being on his gak list and commenting is enough to draw barbs), and will hold grudges for years. (Examples: "Ricks News", his ongoing inability to use the word Seem without spelling it Seam from back in the Spartangate days, his loathing of Jaymz and Mike, etc).

He is way too abrasive for it to be healthy, and seems to legit need to speak to a professional. I say that with absolutely zero judgement, and while I'm not a trained mental health worker or would expect one to make a diagnosis over the internet, he seems to hold onto things way too seriously for his own good, and even when he supports 'my side', it's often in a way that comes across as grating.

We came to something of a mutual understanding over many exchanges, and at this point I'm content to just leave things be. If Kickstarter thinks he went over the line, I guess he finally found where it was.

Hasn't he been barred in the past as well? Pretty sure he was given a time out by Kickstarter a while ago before, or was that another user?

Edit; that said, with Rick's general quietness of late and Jorel banned, along with many of the other Usual Suspects MIA, I imagine the KS comments may be considerably quieter for a while to start off the new year.

Please don't let Jorel be banned from the Robotech KS - he winds me up enough already on the AvP KS groups with his postings in 20+ consecutive posts that amount to "you think you've got it bad, come and look at Robotech".

Yeah, I had not seen user comments edited before on KS so it really does raise interest of what the heck he said.
Mind-you, the "I got a life unlike you losers" posing was getting rather old.
Rick, well, we shall see if it lasts.
I guess I will have to up my game in their absence.
Maybe cuss more and threaten them with Canadian government wrath, I will hire Stephen Harper to do his worst to them since he is back benching lately (tremble!).

richred_uk wrote:
Please don't let Jorel be banned from the Robotech KS - he winds me up enough already on the AvP KS groups with his postings in 20+ consecutive posts that amount to "you think you've got it bad, come and look at Robotech".

A) it's not like we have much control over what Kickstarter does or doesn't do. I sure as hell won't start a petition to lobby them to be lenient. Until Kickstarter gives us an Ignore Backer feature (I have asked them twice about this directly, they don't plan on it, but I remain hopeful) or I can be bothered to make/hunt down a browser extension that does the same, people getting a slap on the wrist once in a while is a feature, not a bug.

B) You can swing by the gakshow that is RRT anytime you like. It's not as though he's the only source of commentary. We have hundreds of pages of thread here on that very topic, not a hint of that particular user within.

C) Believe me, in time, it gets old. Also he's not the most reliable narrator, as it were. Sure, as I said, RRT is indeed a gakshow, but I'd take his perspective with a bit of a grain of salt. Remember, this is someone who holds grudges to the point that being shown the door on a Facebook group (of all things) is enough reason to harass someone for months and months. It's not healthy, and loses its humour value in time.

I am surprised that I didn't get blocked/deleted/kicked from the kickstarter. I went a bit.....cranky, and pretty much used nothing but profanity to describe PB not to long ago. Not that it changes my feelings about them, but I don't usually go name calling, and cussing at people. Not that I am going to apologize to them, at least not until they can show that they can straighten things out.

Jorel may be brash, but he wasn't alone in the escalation to current events. I have no idea what he said this time but in the past he hasn't acted crazy, just full of rants and brash comments, many of them deserved. This community has seen way crazier behavior from others over the years.

Jorel probably got fed up with every single celebrity he meets (and boy it's a shocking number) wanting to bang him.

Can someone elucidate upon the "various business reasons" that we can't be told about the current status of the project? This has really irked me since I read that part of the update. What possible legal blocks could be in place that would prevent factual information to be shared?

I'm no business insider, nor lawyer, so my information is limited. That said, however, I do not believe there is anything stopping these guys from saying "sprue #30, Glaug Eldaire, is needing to be re-worked due to a panel line placement causing mold collapse" or some such BS.

"On advice of counsel, we plead the fifth."

Does anybody believe it's anything but?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
10)"On advice of counsel, we plead the fifth."

Does anybody believe it's anything but?

9) "It's embarrassing."

8) "I fired everyone locally I could blame."

7) "It's hard and we're already telling people we're working 8 days a week with nothing to show them for it."

6) "If we stop looking out the window to do an update, we may miss the return of a squirrel/ducks/deer/etc."

5) "I'm too busy inserting public service announcements in the middle of my sales pitches to get sympathy for my own failures."

4) "We were in the middle of an update and the PalladiumTM computer got a message that says 'press any key' and we can't find the any key. We telegrammed tech support and are waiting by the door for a response."

3) "Because China... again."

2) "We're too busy gathering unsellable rifter issues and books we don't want to reprint ever for the final grab bag push we're praying for."

1) "Because we already have your money and there isn't anything you can do about that without it costing you even more."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, against my own better judgement, I decided to peek at the KS comments. It doesn't look like much has changed except for the last two days with Rick's self imposed silence and Jorel's likely temporary banning. I was a bit surprised to see Mike1975 wading knee deep in the muck though as that was new since the last time I looked. Also, this was posted there:

Stuart Johnson 2 days ago

Here you go, make of this what you will:

Palladium Books says:

Stuart,

If that is the “word on the street,” it is mistaken and absolutely untrue. We did NOT give Rick a refund, nor did we have him sign an NDA. We are not offering refunds. That has not changed. As we’ve said repeatedly, we are working on Wave Two, and have every intention of delivering all promised rewards when they are completed.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
"On advice of counsel, we plead the fifth."

Does anybody believe it's anything but?

Nice!

Well I finally reached the ragged end of my rope and filed with the MI and OR AGs as well as the FTC. I'm updating my BBB complaint response and am going to consult a lawyer in about two weeks once she's reviewed the facts. I may have no leg to stand on but I'll at least get clearly defined actions I can take in regards to resolving this situation.

I think their 'we want to keep quiet' sentiment is simply based on being uncertain if things will pan out or not. From cursory reading over the years, they often seem to have some 'awesome things being talked about that we totally can't share, but will hint at', which some fans seem to love (ooooh, what could it be!?!?!), but here it just comes across as grating.

Like, if they were in negotiation with a factory to not only produce wave 2, but their expertise might allow them to move onto the next series without much delay or something (no, not likely, I'm making an entirely off the cuff random example); something they think would actually be good news, but are concerned that letting it slip and then having it fall apart might cause even more bile/disappointment/anger.

It's a tad more self awareness than they might usually show, imo, but it's also part of SOP. It's not quite the professional level of managing expectations I'd hope for, but hey, baby steps.

So now we just wait for the next update to see what they actually have to say.

Ha.

As if.

*jazzhands*

That would be fine and dandy if they hadn't taken the money three years in advance. When they're financing their pie in the sky dreams with their own money, they can play the double super secret card whenever they want for years on end.

 warboss wrote:
That would be fine and dandy if they hadn't taken the money three years in advance. When they're financing their pie in the sky dreams with their own money, they can play the double super secret card whenever they want for years on end.

This has always been my main gripe. Believe it or not I would be content to wait this long to get a good product. The issue is that I would require open communication from the producer. So, I am angry not at the time this has taken but at the lack of accountability and communication PB seems to think is an acceptable business practice. Transparency in the past would have cleared up 90% of the worries. At this point they're screwed.

Maybe they are taking a page from the GW playbook in the silence????? Of course, GW at least has(had) a vastly larger playerbase to be able to succeed at that particular choice, and even still, I think they are starting to fail using that system.

Weren't the BBB complaint details and responses previously readable? Or were folks uploading them elsewhere and linking to it?

http://www.bbb.org/detroit/business-reviews/books-new/palladium-books-inc-in-westland-mi-13022151/complaints#breakdown

edit: From a quick look through the thread, it looks like some PDFs of complaints and responses were attached directly to Dakka posts but I could have sworn you could access them as well on the BBB site last summer as well. Am I remembering that incorrectly? When I last looked in the summer, IIRC they had 3-4 complaints and a C+ rating. They're now down to an F with 13 complaints.

Here is a quick conversion I did of a Veritech with gunpla wings. If anyone is interested, I can try to make quick conversions of specific variants from wave 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It still needs some clean up on the wings.

Looks good! What kit originally did you get the bits from?

 warboss wrote:
Weren't the BBB complaint details and responses previously readable? Or were folks uploading them elsewhere and linking to it?

http://www.bbb.org/detroit/business-reviews/books-new/palladium-books-inc-in-westland-mi-13022151/complaints#breakdown

edit: From a quick look through the thread, it looks like some PDFs of complaints and responses were attached directly to Dakka posts but I could have sworn you could access them as well on the BBB site last summer as well. Am I remembering that incorrectly? When I last looked in the summer, IIRC they had 3-4 complaints and a C+ rating. They're now down to an F with 13 complaints.

I'm pretty sure people were uploading the PDF's they received from the BBB, of the responses the BBB were getting from Palladium. I think some people hosted them on other sites (Dropbox?), but I can't recall ever seeing them hosted by the BBB.

As to the F grade, that's hilarious. But also reason, I suspect, that PB are apparently not responding to complaints anymore. It's not like their stock with that institution can get any worse. So why waste the time and energy? PB likely realize the BBB are at best, a paper tiger.

And here we were thinking that Kevin was incapable of changing. That doesn't seem to be the case. He's learnt that he doesn't have to bother with the BBB. Progress!

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Maybe they are taking a page from the GW playbook in the silence????? Of course, GW at least has(had) a vastly larger playerbase to be able to succeed at that particular choice, and even still, I think they are starting to fail using that system.

GW doesn't take your money 3 years in advance, and still deliver nothing, with no signs of progress in almost a year. They can be 'silent', and you can disagree with that, but it is nowhere near the same as taking money for a Kickstarter, delivering a fraction of what you were supposed to, then not talking about it.

 warboss wrote:
Looks good! What kit originally did you get the bits from?

MS Blade. I think they're really supposed to adorn robot foreheads.

Thanks!

I'm going to try a bulkier fighter with forward swept wings next. When I'm ready to look at the RTT sprues again.

I think when Kevin started this endeavor, he was really jazzed about it.

The moment, however, he found out there was real work involved he started to lose interest.

When it started taking away time from what he felt was his "real" business of making RPG books (even though they're only doing 1-2 a year), he's put the project on the back burner (behind his 3-year late RPG books). Given time (and enough money), he believes he'll eventually get it out.

What's made it worse to him is that the "fans" aren't given him a standing ovation for what he's already done and are instead growing increasingly hostile towards the KS (and him). I believe that's turned any incentive for him to complete this to "screw this, they'll get it when I'm darn good and ready".

I think the last straw is that ultimately, they DON'T have the funds. Kevin has deluded himself into believing they do, or that they can replace the funds they've already spent. But the truth is the piddly amount PB makes is doing nothing but see the company slowly sliding into a hole. My strong guess is they've been operating at a loss for years, the KS gave them enough funds to drag out the company's demise for another 10 years or so, but the funds for Wave 2 aren't there anymore - and never will be again.

And Kevin wants to blame us all for not being patient enough to give him the time to do this all properly, on HIS schedule - even though he's squatting on our money and wasting our time.

Lets review their average lateness;

Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide
Scheduled: Fall 1998
Released: May 15, 2001

Armageddon Unlimited (Minion War: Part 4)
Scheduled: March 14, 2006 PR – December 2006
Released: February 11, 2011

Mutant Underground
Announced: April 2000
Released: February 24, 2003

Book 11: Eastern Territory 3
Scheduled: Spring 1999
Released: April 10, 2001

Mysteries of Magic—Book One: The Heart of Magic
Scheduled: Summer or Fall 2003
Released: September 25, 2009
of course book 2 and 3 were never mentioned again

Book 4: Skraypers (originally Scrapers and Scraypers)
Announced: January 1995
Released: May 24, 1998

Book Five: The Anvil Galaxy
Announced: Summer 1998
Released: May 20, 2002

Book Six: The Three Galaxies 6
Announced: 1998
Released: March 28, 2003

Book 10: Hades—Pits of Hell (Minion War: Part 1) 7
Announced: June 11, 2004
Released: August 20, 2007

Book 11: Dyval—Hell Unleashed (Minion War: Part 2)
Announced: "Coming in 2006"
Released: March 31, 2009

Book 12: Dimensional Outbreak (Minion War: Part 3)
Announced:"Coming in 2006"
Released: March 9, 2010

Book 13: Fleets of the Three Galaxies (originally Phase World Spacecraft)
Announced: November 2, 2006 PR – "Coming 2007"
Released: July 27, 2009

Book 14: Thundercloud Galaxy
Announced: "Planned for 2009"
Released: April 26, 2011

Heroes of the Megaverse: A Rifts Dimension Book and Minion War Crossover
Announced: April 19, 2006 PR
Released: September 15, 2010

Shemarrian Nation
Announced: February 8, 2006 PR – "Slated for 2006"
Released: April 24, 2009

Vampires
Announced: December 4, 2009 PR – "Planned for the first half of 2010"
Released: April 11, 2013

Book 24: China 1—The Yama Kings
Announced: Rifter 12 (Oct 00) p.10 – Late 2001
Released: January 26, 2004

Book 31: Triax Two (originally Triax: 109 P.A.)
Announced: December 2, 2005 PR – "Slated for 2006"
Released: April 28, 2010

Book 32: Lemuria 10
Announced: 2008
Released: April 5, 2012

Book 33: Northern Gun One (originally Northern Gun Sourcebook)
Announced: 2007
Released: October 24, 2013

Book 34: Northern Gun Two
Announced: September 29, 2011 PR – "In development"
Released: May 16, 2014

Book 35: Megaverse in Flames (Minion War: Part 5)
Announced: "Coming in 2006"
Released: August 9, 2014
this one works out to 8 years

Rifts Chaos Earth: A Complete RPG
Announced: Jan 98
Released: June 24, 2003

The New Generation Sourcebook
Announced: "Coming in 2008"
Released: December 2, 2011

Beyond the Supernatural, Second Edition RPG
Announced: Early 1999
Released: January 21, 2005
the remaining books for this incomplete rpg have never been released



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now how about still never released;

Palladium Fantasy RPG: Land of the Damned 3—The Citadel (originally The Bleakness)
Announced: Fall 2001

Rifts Sourcebook: Sovietski
Announced: March 14, 2006

Rifts Sourcebook: Voodoo (originally Voodoo and the Spirit World)
Announced: March 14, 2006

Rifts World Book: Deep South—Dark Woods
Announced: June 1, 2006

Rifts World Book: Deep South—Delta Blues
Announced: March 14, 2006

Atorian Empire
Announced: "Coming in 2001"

United Worlds of Warlock
Announced: "Coming in 2003"

Africa 2: The Legacy of the Four Horsemen
Announced: "Coming in 2001"

Australia 2: Mystic Australia
Announced: Spring 1999

Australia 3: Dreamtime
Announced: Summer 1999

New Generation Freedom Fighters
Announced: December 31, 2009

Spacecraft Compendium / Book of Spaceships
Announced: "In development" for 2009

Mechanoid(s) Space
Announced: Jan 98
this is the biggie; 18 years

Warpath: Urban Jungle RPG 4
Announced: February 8, 2006

Rifts World Book: New Navy (originally Underseas Two)
Announced: May 14, 2010

Robotech: Expeditionary Force Marines Sourcebook One (originally United-Earth Expeditionary Force Marines)
Announced: May 22, 2009

Couple of things to point out there on that list.

The UEEF marines sourcebook is out as of this fall.

Books 33 and 34 were the only two previously crowdfunded products in Palladium history (crowdfunded on their own site incidentally) and while delayed both did appear.

Recon, a miniatures wargame that Palladium bought any turned into an RPG in the 1980s promised a new RPG version cross compatible with the standard Palladium system in the 'next 6 months' in my 1989 copy. My understanding is that project has been through the hands of several authors (including Kevin's now ex-wife) and different conceptualizations but has never done better than coming up for pre-orders before sinking back below the radar.

I'm pointing this out to show that:

1 Palladium has a 100% record of being late but complete on Crowdfunded products before RTT.

2 Kevin has a habit of talking about projects very early (sometimes at the conceptual stage) in the development cycle which results in a lot of projects missing their original delivery dates by a considerable margin. In part this is due to the weird rules distributors for some of his products force on him (apparently they buy 6 months in advance so if he doesn'thype a product at least 6 months before he releases it they wwon't buy it when it comes out) but mostly its because he gets excited about a product but can't reliably predict when it will be completed.

How much did NG1 and 2 draw in? Across how many backers?

Wait, don't answer, let's Google it.

According to PB themselves, here, NG1 drew in ~$27,030 from 353 gamers.

NG2, noted here, drew in $25,535 across 284 people.

Even ignoring the 'omg I'm going to explode if I don't tell you about this!' early announcements, they took a combined 52 grand or so (give or take, I have no idea what cuts might've been from credit cards or paypal or whatever) from less than 650 backers (with overlap). They were due out that year (Summer and Fall respectively), meaning NG1 was around a year late, and NG2 around a year and a half late, if we're charitable with what constitutes "summer", etc. RRT is now over 2 years late (optimistic estimates for full delivery in the 2.5-3 years late range), so hey, they learned that crowdfunding really does mean not needing to give a gak about what we backers think or say!

So around 5-15% of the backers contributed roughly 3-4% of the amount of cash the RRT crowd did. Not to show disrespect to those who helped make those books happen, merely pointing out that using their last two campaigns as evidence of them getting things done is to equate the 3 as somehow comparable, whereas even combining those 2 books into a single "PB's Last Crowdfunding Endeavor" still makes it a rounding error compared to the contributions made here.

Kevin's long standing inability to keep things close to the vest when they're mere glints in his eye isn't relevant. As per ND, the models exist. PB already made wave one, they're not babes lost in the woods anymore. I'm sure it's difficult, time consuming, and frustrating, but they don't get to hide behind 'omg this is so new and terrifying!' anymore.

Bluntly, they need to gak or get off the pot. It's been hours, nobody buys that they're struggling with all their might, despite the occasional gasp and groan emitted from within.

Jefffar wrote:

I'm pointing this out to show that:

1 Palladium has a 100% record of being late but complete on Crowdfunded products before RTT.

2 Kevin has a habit of talking about projects very early (sometimes at the conceptual stage) in the development cycle which results in a lot of projects missing their original delivery dates by a considerable margin. In part this is due to the weird rules distributors for some of his products force on him (apparently they buy 6 months in advance so if he doesn'thype a product at least 6 months before he releases it they wwon't buy it when it comes out) but mostly its because he gets excited about a product but can't reliably predict when it will be completed.

NG1 was a few weeks away from being done when crowdfunded... and took around a year to come out. NG2 was a month or two out supposedly when crowdfunding... and took around two years. Those products were not "very early" in the development cycle but rather Palladium was flat out clueless as to their actual status and the effort they were willing to devote to getting it done just like with Robotech Tactics and the infamous 98% done advertised on the kickstarter. Having a few weeks turn into a year is simply a failure at multiple levels at Palladium and no where else. Other companies have to deal with the same "weird rules" of the distributors yet they don't routinely as a matter of course have release dates that are MULTIPLE YEARS off from their advertised release dates. Distributors didn't force Kevin Siembieda to start advertising Lemuria in the 1990's when it came out around 2012. There may be the occasional title that ends up vaporware or years late with other companies but with Palladium that level of incompetence in project management is routine and the standard. In the past five years (and I only say five years because I stopped following releases for years before that), I can think of only one "book" that actually came out within a year of its first advertised release date and that was the Dead Reign "book" (and I put that in quotes because it was 32 pages which qualifies it by page count as a pamphlet as well) that they said nothing about until it was ready to go to print.

Also, Palladium does NOT have a 100% late but complete rate for crowdfunding. There are over a dozen products in wave two that are NOT complete. If you count up the individual SKUs (both RPG and minis), they're only around 50% "late but complete".

You seem reasonable from your posts here and in the past with your moderation on the megaversal forums (unlike Comrade Commissar Ruiz) so I don't want the above to seem like I'm trying to discourage you from posting or trying to jump down your throat.. but the level of suck that Palladium has created with this product is unfortunately much greater than your post indicates and the blame lands squarely at the feet of Palladium. They continue to compound the problem by ignoring it.

Can someone list PB's output for 2013, 2014 and 2015?

 Alpharius wrote:
Can someone list PB's output for 2013, 2014 and 2015?

This site might help although it looks like it was last updated in February 2015 (kind of like Robotech Kickstarter backers!) but gives you a good indication (assuming the dates are correct) of previous years and I quoted/linked their 2015 "goals" as well below. I've spoilered it because it's long winded and this post took more effort than palladium has publicly put into the entire Robotech Kickstarter cummulatively in the past 6 months.



TL;DR

Right now, we have 22 books in development, and that does not include getting Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) and Wave One products released to our backers and stores around the world, nor the massive number of items that are part of the RRT Wave Two release coming later in 2015.

ZERO robotech kickstarter wave two products out of the "massive number" came out and three out of "22 books in development" made it out the door in 2015.

Warboss,

You seem to have missed my qualifier referring to crowdfunding projects before RTT.

The Lemuria announced in the 1990s was actually cancelled before it was published. The more recent version of Lemuria was actually a completely new product with the same name, so dating it back to the 1990s isn't accurate. The Lemuria book as produced has a 4 year (2008 to 2012) development time frame, which seems pretty typical of the works that reach fruition.

Some more clarification on the 6 months figure. This isn't a target number but part of their operations. If they aren't talking about their products at least 6 months prior to release, they don't feel that they will have the day 1 sales necessary to cover the cost of producing the item. Back in the 90's, when they were releasing books almost monthly, there was a real danger that if they didn't start chatting up the product early, the distributors wouldn't pick it up for several months after release.

If there was a delay or a cancellation it didn't matter as much as something else was close to being ready anyway and could take it's place in the release order. But that meant that as some products might get pushed ahead (For example, Rifts World Book 12 was released after Rifts World Book 16) there had to be chatter about them as well to generate orders.

Nowadays, with a much longer average development time per book this isn't necessary, but the habit has stayed.

Combine this with Kevin's habit of getting really excited about ideas and penchant for hyperbole we get the issue with over promising and over promoting that has been repeatedly noted in this thread.

I'm not going to say Palladium's record of publishing in a timely fashion isn't bad (I did bring up an item that has been outstanding longer than anything else on the list). I was providing some detail as to what are the mechanisms behind the delays seen in the list above.

I don't doubt that Kevin sincerely wants to bring everything on his to do list to fulfillment. I don't doubt he wants to deliver everything we've paid for. In my experience of being a customer of Palladium for more than 25 years is that the issues are related to transitioning from concept to finished product rather than some of the mustache twirling villainy I've seen ascribed to him in this thread.

Jefffar wrote:
Warboss,

You seem to have missed my qualifier referring to crowdfunding projects before RTT.

Missed? Nah... I just prefer to fairly evaluate their (lack of) completion instead of particularly specific cherry picking especially considering that the Robotech apple was concurrent with two of the three previous orange RPG kickstarters.

Jefffar wrote:

I don't doubt that Kevin sincerely wants to bring everything on his to do list to fulfillment. I don't doubt he wants to deliver everything we've paid for. In my experience of being a customer of Palladium for more than 25 years is that the issues are related to transitioning from concept to finished product rather than some of the mustache twirling villainy I've seen ascribed to him in this thread.

At this point, his original intentions (as well as 98% of everything else told to us) are almost meaningless after almost 3 years. At this point, what matters is his insistence on NOT fulfilling his production and communication obligations despite multiple promises to do so. His responses come off as empty, meaningless, petulent, petty, and spiteful because we don't appreciate his supposed super double secret efforts ignoring the fact that he hasn't shown any discernable progress since February. You could describe the fanbase's reactions to his public inaction on this KS as such as well but Palladium is setting the tone for the discussion, not the other way around. Palladium has had dozens of opportunties to improve relations (including the much publicized and ultimately pointless "restart" of the discussion) and yet almost every time they've chosen not to do anything meaningful but rather just double down on the mistakes of the past. They could be offering refunds to make up for the fact that they've massively failed the fanbase on the project... but they haven't. They could have been open and honest (without rushing to play the blame game like they're wont to do in the past) about the issues and used the backers to catch issues with both the models and the rules... but they haven't. They could have done the necessary legwork in the first place to make sure that the KS campaign wasn't 98% smoke and mirrors... but they didn't. Everything they do is seeming for their own ultra short term benefit with no real thought as to the reprecussions. Backers are responding fairly to Palladium's mutliple failures regarding this project. Backers didn't fail palladium but rather Palladium failed its backers.

As backers, we're out of the loop. The only thing we can judge Palladium on are their actions (or in this case more accurately their inaction). There is that old quote about success being 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. Publicly, we only see that first 10% which is why the project post funding has been as "successful" as it has been by the only metrics we have access to. If we had put 10% of the money down that we did, I suppose that would be fair but we instead funded the project over 1400%. The backers did their job quite well. The same can't be said of Palladium currently.

But you've got to remember, PB and KS being completely historically incompetent, to a defender, is actually a mitigating, not aggravating circumstance.

Besides, PB and KS only care about their fans. Someone who has an issue with how PB and KS do business aren't fans. And, therefore, don't count.

Merijeek wrote:
But you've got to remember, PB and KS being completely historically incompetent, to a defender, is actually a mitigating, not aggravating circumstance.

Despite disagreeing with him on most points, I don't really see the blind fanaticism that one (decreasingly) finds on the megaversal forums from fans nor the North Korean style vindictive reaction to the truth that you find in NMI's moderation. I think he rather just has more hope in the company and their efforts than their actions have actually warranted in 2015.

Or he is here to soft-peddle because the opposite hasn't worked.

And, really, 2015? Should probably include 2013 and 2014....

Just because he isn't a shrieking cultist doesn't mean he isn't a happy supporter. The last KS update had 27 likes after all, even if it managed to both say nothing an yet still contain a blatant lie - even if it wasn't actually a lie until a week later.

I meant to ask for RPG books that PB has put out in 2013, 2014 and 2015.

They've got to be busy doing something, right?

...right?!?

 Alpharius wrote:
I meant to ask for RPG books that PB has put out in 2013, 2014 and 2015.

They've got to be busy doing something, right?

...right?!?

3 out of 22 in 2015... 3-4 in 2014 and iirc 2-3 in 2013. Apparently two dice bags and embroidered jackets take precedence.

That's because they're Easy Money(c)(r)(tm). All they need to do is let someone else do the work and take their cut.

You know, just like Robotech Tactics.

 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I meant to ask for RPG books that PB has put out in 2013, 2014 and 2015.

They've got to be busy doing something, right?

...right?!?

3 out of 22 in 2015... 3-4 in 2014 and iirc 2-3 in 2013. Apparently two dice bags and embroidered jackets take precedence.

Don't forget the Malcontent dice that Mike was working to get done, that they decided to co-opt once they realized demand was there.

Oh, wait. Simplest fething thing, a known market, bugger all work needed, infrastructure to do it already in place, and given what they're charging for the current ones, likely a reasonably profitable thing.

And it would have been a nice stopgap thing. But I guess 15+ months isn't enough time in Siembeda-World (quick search put it at the end of September last year that Mike ran the drive).

I did mine regardless....

I'm pretty sure I saw some dice like that last time I was in an adult store.

So then it is agreed that if they could not meet their own expectations, how in creation can they meet ours?

Yeah, all you out there start the "Ha, ya foolz, PB always fethed-up, ya get what you dezerve!!"
I still maintain we were blackmailed into it for Robotech from PB or nothing and the Ninja Division bait and switch.

Looking at their history, approximately publication occurred 3-4 years past promised date.
We are on track?

http://www.animemaru.com/harmony-gold-to-adapt-macross-delta-as-robotech-spin-off/

Harmony Gold is Roboteching Macross Delta this summer. WTF? Here is a link to Episode 1 of the Macross version.

https://kissanime.to/Anime/Macross-Delta/Episode-001?id=121544

edit: As pointed out by Thane below, this is probably a hoax/joke.

Based on the other articles that appears to be a satire website, so no reason for yet another scale poll

 ThaneCawdor wrote:
Based on the other articles that appears to be a satire website, so no reason for yet another scale poll

That's a good catch. I didn't bother reading the rest of the blog.

 warboss wrote:
http://www.animemaru.com/harmony-gold-to-adapt-macross-delta-as-robotech-spin-off/

Harmony Gold is Roboteching Macross Delta this summer. WTF? Here is a link to Episode 1 of the Macross version.

https://kissanime.to/Anime/Macross-Delta/Episode-001?id=121544

edit: As pointed out by Thane below, this is probably a hoax/joke.

It's interesting to see what they did with the mech designs, however the singing dance number musical combat was so dumb it made my brain hurt.

Jeffar, are what point would he become the moustache twirling villan?
When he keeps exhibiting the same behaviour no matter the effect on his customers?
When the amount of money becomes quite significant?
When years from now they're still working on wave 2?
Willing incompetence is not an excuse.

OK, trying to go through and figure out what's been delivered and what we're waiting on so I can file with my AG in Washington State. Does someone have a quick summary? I just found my breakdown of what I pledged for.

Thanks!

Just a sidenote on the BBB, complaints there can, and generally are bought off by businesses that receive them.

If Palladium does indeed have an F rating with them it could be another indicator that money is in short supply.

csimian wrote:
OK, trying to go through and figure out what's been delivered and what we're waiting on so I can file with my AG in Washington State. Does someone have a quick summary? I just found my breakdown of what I pledged for.

Thanks!

Here is the original Wave 1/Wave 2 announcement from nearly two years ago.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/734271

That details what has been delivered and what remains missing.

I think it is more of a matter of Palladium not being a member and not caring to.
In reality, it doesn't do a whole lot to damage them.

 Swabby wrote:
Just a sidenote on the BBB, complaints there can, and generally are bought off by businesses that receive them.

That is a bit of a nasty allegation.
"Pay us money or else the world will see how bad a business you are!" <cue curling moustache and evil laugh>

Well, with a little research, that statement seems correct:

Actual example of nailing a publication for criticizing them.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110919/14221016016/criticize-better-business-bureau-theyll-pull-your-accreditation.shtml

An outline of the conflict of interest and how useless the process is (which I can attest)
http://referencedesigner.com/blog/better-business-bureau-a-useless-institution/545/

The ABC investigation "Pay to play".
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/business-bureau-best-ratings-money-buy/story?id=12123843

Bloody guys are no better than PB!

BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

I've never seen it as a 'magic bullet', but they're at least well known enough that it seems like a fine, low effort addition to the 'attempts at resolution' paper trail.

If I were to pursue something, it'd probably be on my checklist just to say I'd done it (and have the email/whatever in the pile).

There's no massive benefit for doing so, but there's basically no drawbacks either, as long as one isn't a massive idiot while submitting (ie; stick to the facts, remain calm/civil, etc), but someone ranting at length is going to harm their own cause regardless of who they're speaking to.

When I called and talked to Chuck I was polite but noted my displeasure clearly. It's entirely possible to disagree with someone or a business without being a massive donkey cave about it.

 Mike1975 wrote:
BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

Call me petty, but I will take what little "progress" I can get.
I did not find it "funny" you thought PB valued your opinion on things only to find out otherwise later... but we all have made some incorrect assumptions about those nutters.


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 Forar wrote:
When I called and talked to Chuck I was polite but noted my displeasure clearly. It's entirely possible to disagree with someone or a business without being a massive donkey cave about it.

I have typically found in a business setting being rude or worse, to swear is like giving permission to be ignored.
It is hard to hang-up or not give some plausible explanation when a person is presenting a grievance in a civilized way.
I still have too many people I deal with that seem to be looking for a dog to kick than to get their problem dealt with: they tend to forget the "dog" may bite.

 Mike1975 wrote:
BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

The only effect I could see the F rating having would be in the occasional future business dealings Palladium gets into outside of the gaming industry. If they apply for a business loan, a simple background check by the bank would reveal the F rating and complaints and affect their interest rate. If they partnered up with someone else to license Rifts outside of tabletop gaming, it may give the partner a bit of pause when evaluating the current popularity/reputation of the IP/company.

It won't have any noticeable effect on Palladium within the niche gaming industry though as their reputation has been tarnished for decades. The only positive commentary/discussion I see about anything Palladium Books online outside of their own forums is generally limited to talking about what was (in the 1980's and 90's) and not what is. If someone does a google search about Palladium, they'll likely find negative discussion about them on wierd sounding places like RPG.net (a site for rocket propelled grenades??) and some dakkadakka or something site (wtf?!? is that even English?). Most folks not into tabletop gaming will however recognize the BBB name and recognize the significance of the F rating even if they don't understand the intricacies of how to fudge the rating or the controversies around the BBB.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

Call me petty, but I will take what little "progress" I can get.
I did not find it "funny" you thought PB valued your opinion on things only to find out otherwise later... but we all have made some incorrect assumptions about those nutters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:
When I called and talked to Chuck I was polite but noted my displeasure clearly. It's entirely possible to disagree with someone or a business without being a massive donkey cave about it.

I have typically found in a business setting being rude or worse, to swear is like giving permission to be ignored.
It is hard to hang-up or not give some plausible explanation when a person is presenting a grievance in a civilized way. I still have too many people I deal with that seem to be looking for a dog to kick than to get their problem dealt with: they tend to forget the "dog" may bite.

We tried the be nice to PB and did a 10 questions thing ages back. I helped put it together and posed it to PB after cleaning up some of the questions. I get ridiculed by some like Merijeek because PB actually responded. They responded to about 6 of the questions and ignored the rest, some of which I would have ignored too. Being polite was tried with mixed results. Being a jerk has been tried with pretty much Zero results to date. Go figure. Being nice gets you at least something. Being an ass gets you ignored.

Someone calls me screaming and I'm likely to ignore them too just like some guy named Zero did when he called PB directly a long time ago.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
BBB is pretty well known for being bought. Hence why many who know do not give them as much credence and why I think it funny that people think PB would care and so many think it a triumph to lower PB's BBB rating.

The only effect I could see the F rating having would be in the occasional future business dealings Palladium gets into outside of the gaming industry. If they apply for a business loan, a simple background check by the bank would reveal the F rating and complaints and affect their interest rate. If they partnered up with someone else to license Rifts outside of tabletop gaming, it may give the partner a bit of pause when evaluating the current popularity/reputation of the IP/company.

It won't have any noticeable effect on Palladium within the niche gaming industry though as their reputation has been tarnished for decades. The only positive commentary/discussion I see about anything Palladium Books online outside of their own forums is generally limited to talking about what was (in the 1980's and 90's) and not what is. If someone does a google search about Palladium, they'll likely find negative discussion about them on wierd sounding places like RPG.net (a site for rocket propelled grenades??) and some dakkadakka or something site (wtf?!? is that even English?). Most folks not into tabletop gaming will however recognize the BBB name and recognize the significance of the F rating even if they don't understand the intricacies of how to fudge the rating or the controversies around the BBB.

Agreed, and with PB's present financial state I don't see anyone giving them a loan regardless of the BBB rating, so in my estimation net results = zero.