ImAGeek wrote: There’s no way everything for Stormcast that has a scenic base is for shadespire (Warmachine and 2 Stormcast sprue, 3 Stormcast with massive ranged weapons, a Gryph hound and a lion mount thingy). And the ghosts don’t match the art from the shadespire card we saw. Maybe they’re from the starter, not shadespire.
This.
It's possible there will be a second, smaller starter set (like Know no fear or the exclusive Plague Brethren DG got) alongside the main Starter set.
Speaking of which, do we have confirmation that the Starter set will be called Soul Wars (like Josh Reynold's novel) ?
And that the Core Book will be included in it (just like Dark Imperium) ?
The sheer amount of Stormcast stuff coming with V2 is kinda overwhelming. Going through the pictures from the event I think I count four or five different unit types(possibly more depending on how the weapon options work out) and the same number of Heroes, along with a warmachine.
If those spooks are not on moulded bases then they are incredibly well done and at odds with the bases on the majority of the other Nighthaunts that have been previewed.
I agree with Goatboy - to me those bases look sculpted rather than later decorated. Shadespire or not shadespire, I don't think those flagstones are glued on.
On a side note, anyone else annoyed by how they've split up the various elves and dwarves and skaven into mini-factions that don't mix well but Stormcast get to stay all as one big group?
The question is going to be "is it a full fledged starter set" ala the Age of SIgmar starter/Dark Imperium or a Blight War style campaign starter. Nothing really seemed to be 'easy build' style.
On a side note, anyone else annoyed by how they've split up the various elves and dwarves and skaven into mini-factions that don't mix well but Stormcast get to stay all as one big group?
Yes, but only because I wanted Stormcast split up. I was pissed when they rolled everything together. Additionally, I have a feeling that part of this 'new edition' and the GHB will be addressing this. Things like Swifthawk Agents just don't have any real leaders for their forces and that's pathetic considering the Skycutter comes with the option to build a guy on foot.
On a side note, anyone else annoyed by how they've split up the various elves and dwarves and skaven into mini-factions that don't mix well but Stormcast get to stay all as one big group?
I don't mind that so much, but I feel like there should be a generic allegiance for Aelf, Duardin, Skaven, Grots, Orruks, and Ogors. Not super detailed but rather like the two-page ones from GHB2. Keep the distinct battletomes for specialized sub-factions but give something to the player who wants to run, for example, just elves rather than order soup.
On a side note, anyone else annoyed by how they've split up the various elves and dwarves and skaven into mini-factions that don't mix well but Stormcast get to stay all as one big group?
I don't mind that so much, but I feel like there should be a generic allegiance for Aelf, Duardin, Skaven, Grots, Orruks, and Ogors. Not super detailed but rather like the two-page ones from GHB2. Keep the distinct battletomes for specialized sub-factions but give something to the player who wants to run, for example, just elves rather than order soup.
They did reverse some of the splitting with the Legions of Nagash. I hope they keep it up. There should totally be an "Allegiance: Aelf" or "Allegiance: Skaven".
Geifer wrote: Why aren't we discussing the most metal thing of this release?
They shoot maces! Friggin' mace launchers, man!
I didn't think stormcast could get any more ridiculous. Sideways turkey baster launchers proved me wrong.
The Nighthaunt stuff looks great. They've been very creative at splitting up old factions and adding new stuff to make a completely new faction.
I really hope that these are only photo duplicates, and that the real models are each a bit more unique. This is almost as bad as the first plastic kits GW produced.
Geifer wrote: Why aren't we discussing the most metal thing of this release?
They shoot maces! Friggin' mace launchers, man!
I didn't think stormcast could get any more ridiculous. Sideways turkey baster launchers proved me wrong.
The Nighthaunt stuff looks great. They've been very creative at splitting up old factions and adding new stuff to make a completely new faction.
I really hope that these are only photo duplicates, and that the real models are each a bit more unique. This is almost as bad as the first plastic kits GW produced.
They’re most likely in the starter and that’s why some are doubled up.
Geifer wrote: Why aren't we discussing the most metal thing of this release?
They shoot maces! Friggin' mace launchers, man!
I didn't think stormcast could get any more ridiculous. Sideways turkey baster launchers proved me wrong.
The Nighthaunt stuff looks great. They've been very creative at splitting up old factions and adding new stuff to make a completely new faction.
I really hope that these are only photo duplicates, and that the real models are each a bit more unique. This is almost as bad as the first plastic kits GW produced.
They may be model duplicates, but they are not photo duplicates. The grass on the bases are all in different positions.
Geifer wrote: Why aren't we discussing the most metal thing of this release?
They shoot maces! Friggin' mace launchers, man!
I didn't think stormcast could get any more ridiculous. Sideways turkey baster launchers proved me wrong.
The Nighthaunt stuff looks great. They've been very creative at splitting up old factions and adding new stuff to make a completely new faction.
I really hope that these are only photo duplicates, and that the real models are each a bit more unique. This is almost as bad as the first plastic kits GW produced.
When you shoot the baster blaster, you either lean left or you lean right. You may not know this, but beneath their loincloths the Stormcast armor has a metal bar that prevents them from ever closing their thighs. It is just one more reason Sigmar is actually the bad guy. The Chaos Gods are just misunderstood.
Thank you all for noticing this. It has confirmed for me that these are from the starter set. If you look at these guys and the ones with shields you can see there are pairs of identical models. The same is true for the battleline nighthaunts.
The dark imperium set had one duplicated marine sprue and one duplicated death guard sprue. This box will have the same.
At this point it is highly likely that the minis shown on the community site are the contents of the starter set.
Incidentally the total number of minis shown on the blog is 53.
Exactly the same as dark Imperium.
streetsamurai wrote: indeed, these are the real models. Such a shame that the clones wars of the 90's are making a comeback
You mean the clone wars of 2017 right, as the 40k starter also has duplicate models in. All the push fit starters have.
Yes but even the.non duplicates are almost identical. The minis from the other starter sets dont.look that similar to each others
Yes, they do.
An army with identical uniforms will always look very similiar. Just look at the Dark Imperium Marines and the AoS Starter Stormcast.
Sure, Deathguard and Khorne don't look that similiar, but only because they are Chaos rag-tag.
Lets.be serious for a second. They dont have the exact same pose and the weapons pointed at the same angle as those guys have. Anybody claiming otherwise is not sincere
streetsamurai wrote: Lets.be serious for a second. They dont have the exact same pose and the weapons pointed at the same angle as those guys have. Anybody claiming otherwise is not sincere
I will agree that they look a bit too similar. These guys look a lot better.
streetsamurai wrote: Lets.be serious for a second. They dont have the exact same pose and the weapons pointed at the same angle as those guys have. Anybody claiming otherwise is not sincere
Yeah, let's be sincere.
Sergeant, 2x Marine A, 2x Marine B
You telling me the different leg poses are more than these new Stormcast have?
My bet is that those "scenic bases" Stormcast and Nighthaunt will be released in Easy-to-build sub-starter set(s), as variations of the units found in the main starter set (just like Know no fear, First Strike, etc.)
angelofvengeance wrote: I think the mace launcher things are more likely to be explosive bolts like the Torque Bows from Gears of War .
While I hate to go against the idea I championed earlier, it was of course just a joke. In truth the "mace launchers" are, as evidenced by the squad leader, stikk bomb launchas, proving once again the superiority of Ork engineering and culture. Or mek-wotsits and kulcha, if you prefer.
Here's something: I've worked out why the new Nighthaunt look so good compared to the Legions of Nagash - they all have nice coherent colours, blacks shifting to greens or blues whereas LoN have a cacophony of colours (plenty of reds, bone, greens, purples, blues, blacks...everything really).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Oh I get it, its an army of ghosts. That's pretty cool.
How does the ethereal rule work in sigmar? Is it still immune to non-magical attacks?
Used to be 4+ save that cannot be modified, unless they changed it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Oh I get it, its an army of ghosts. That's pretty cool.
How does the ethereal rule work in sigmar? Is it still immune to non-magical attacks?
We don't have magical vs non-magical attacks anymore.
The most recent change to the 'Ethereal' rule is that your save cannot be modified, positively or negatively.
So attacks that lower your save via Rend are less effective(a huge deal for heroes) and spells/cover don't help you either.
You are thinking 8th edition. There is no such thing in AoS; saves are saves and Nighthaunt units typically have a special rule that says their saves cannot be modified. They can be bypassed though, such as by Mortal Wounds.
No. Don't think of Ethereal as a save, don't think of it as anything other than a special rule that modifies the unit that Ethereal is on.
Look at, for example, the Cairn Wraith. It has a 4+ save, okay? It has under its abilities: "Ethereal".
Because of the Ethereal rule, if your Cairn Wraith was in Cover(+1 to its Armor Save)? It would still have a 4+ save rather than the 3+ save a unit without Ethereal would have. Because of the Ethereal rule, if your Cairn Wraith was attacked by something that had a Rend of -1? You would have a 4+ save rather than the 5+ save that you would have without Ethereal.
No. Don't think of Ethereal as a save, don't think of it as anything other than a special rule that modifies the unit that Ethereal is on.
Look at, for example, the Cairn Wraith. It has a 4+ save, okay?
It has under its abilities: "Ethereal".
Because of the Ethereal rule, if your Cairn Wraith was in Cover(+1 to its Armor Save)? It would still have a 4+ save rather than the 3+ save a unit without Ethereal would have.
Because of the Ethereal rule, if your Cairn Wraith was attacked by something that had a Rend of -1? You would have a 4+ save rather than the 5+ save that you would have without Ethereal.
Does this make sense?
Yes, I understood how it works. Mechanically an invul works in the same way, as its a save that's not modified by things that would mod an armor save, yet still cannot block mortal wounds. Hence analogue.
Nice new design for the warscrolls, and those new nighthaunts sound pretty deadly.
The lore behind the new units sounds quite awesome... I might have to give them a nice torough look once I'm finished with my Daughters of Khaine and Kharadrons Overlords...
I'm wondering if Command Points are going to be 'bid' at the start of each game round and that's how you can make the double turns a bit more strategic?
Anyone else thinking they may end up being like might points from the LotR sbg? So you can use a point (after a success roll) to act out of sequence? I.e. if your opponent charges, you can spend a point to activate a counter charge.
streetsamurai wrote: Lets.be serious for a second. They dont have the exact same pose and the weapons pointed at the same angle as those guys have. Anybody claiming otherwise is not sincere
Yeah, let's be sincere.
Sergeant, 2x Marine A, 2x Marine B You telling me the different leg poses are more than these new Stormcast have?
Sergeant, 2x Marine A, 2x Marine B Same here.
Looking similiar?
Heads are not in the same position, weapons are held at different angles, some even have a completery different pose. Not comparable at all to these new SC models
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Anyone else thinking they may end up being like might points from the LotR sbg? So you can use a point (after a success roll) to act out of sequence? I.e. if your opponent charges, you can spend a point to activate a counter charge.
Don't know how I feel about this. Some units that are already pointed quite heavily(IMO) get these abilities and are pointed to match. Gryph-Hounds for example are ridiculously pricey for just their Warning Cry and the ability to leave a combat after they make their attacks.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm wondering if Command Points are going to be 'bid' at the start of each game round and that's how you can make the double turns a bit more strategic?
I could see them letting you spend a command point to buff your die roll by one before rolling.
Or I could also see them making you spend a CP just to make the roll happen.
... Or maybe let both players bid CP after the roll to buff the roll infinitely.
Bloodbound with shields, Chaos knights, new Darkaoth, mixed Stormcast Chambers..... And new Freeguild (in brown, round helmets, facing the chaos knight mid-left of the artwork) ???
After all the reveals this weekend, I really want to pick up that Lore of Beasts spell model (The Maw?) and a box of Nighthaunts so I can make Grimdark Pac-man.
The banshee unit hasn't been posted about yet. Or the new black coach or a couple of characters I think but overall a lot of good new stuff. And I hope they are starter stuff as I'll grab a few starters worth of night haunt stuff given the chance.
The "freeguilds" seem to share some iconography with Stormcasts, with large collars behind their necks, and armred pauldrons. I would like some less "Holy Roman Empire 1500 circa" and more "Awesome fantasy themed humans", and that's a good sign.
EnTyme wrote: After all the reveals this weekend, I really want to pick up that Lore of Beasts spell model (The Maw?) and a box of Nighthaunts so I can make Grimdark Pac-man.
EnTyme wrote: After all the reveals this weekend, I really want to pick up that Lore of Beasts spell model (The Maw?) and a box of Nighthaunts so I can make Grimdark Pac-man.
Woa didn't hear about that, any pictures?
More effects found here (live blog update 4, way down):
I had considered getting the Tormented spirits box in case it goes away. But every time I see the new spooks it just makes the Hex wraiths look even worse.
Heads are not in the same position, weapons are held at different angles, some even have a completery different pose. Not comparable at all to these new SC models
It seems entirely the same thing as those SC models to me. Very slight differences with duplicates. after all the Stormcast are leaning in two different directions. But seriously it's a starter where the models will be dirt cheap (relatively) anyways so who cares.
We have no idea. We don't know how many there will be, if they are direct spell representations or just a generic "death" spell or "beasts" spell. We don't know if they have random movement or anything really.
All we know is we have some sweet models that will in some way represent spells.
So at the 1:03 on the video above, they show trees in shadow. Could that be new terrain by chance? It's like they wanted to show it but kept it all dark to see the silhouette only.
Davor wrote: So at the 1:03 on the video above, they show trees in shadow. Could that be new terrain by chance? It's like they wanted to show it but kept it all dark to see the silhouette only.
It’s the Mortarch of Grief that we haven’t seen the model of yet.
Davor wrote: So at the 1:03 on the video above, they show trees in shadow. Could that be new terrain by chance? It's like they wanted to show it but kept it all dark to see the silhouette only.
It’s the Mortarch of Grief that we haven’t seen the model of yet.
No no, it's just some trees. That's the big reveal, it's a new tree kit, complete with 24% more branches! Man, I've been waiting for this for ages now!
Adam Spielmann wrote: The "freeguilds" seem to share some iconography with Stormcasts, with large collars behind their necks, and armred pauldrons. I would like some less "Holy Roman Empire 1500 circa" and more "Awesome fantasy themed humans", and that's a good sign.
They look like any other Fantasy Generic Human Kingdom model line if they're going by that. Full plate, round-open helmets, etc.
At least the whole Holy Roman Empire aesthetic was pretty unique by fantasy-human standards.
Adam Spielmann wrote: The "freeguilds" seem to share some iconography with Stormcasts, with large collars behind their necks, and armred pauldrons. I would like some less "Holy Roman Empire 1500 circa" and more "Awesome fantasy themed humans", and that's a good sign.
They look like any other Fantasy Generic Human Kingdom model line if they're going by that. Full plate, round-open helmets, etc.
At least the whole Holy Roman Empire aesthetic was pretty unique by fantasy-human standards.
People are wanting their genetic medieval dudes for a while now. But looking at the art gives me the impression of Italian mercenary feel for some reason. Maybe it's the helmets.
Adam Spielmann wrote: The "freeguilds" seem to share some iconography with Stormcasts, with large collars behind their necks, and armred pauldrons. I would like some less "Holy Roman Empire 1500 circa" and more "Awesome fantasy themed humans", and that's a good sign.
They look like any other Fantasy Generic Human Kingdom model line if they're going by that. Full plate, round-open helmets, etc.
At least the whole Holy Roman Empire aesthetic was pretty unique by fantasy-human standards.
People are wanting their genetic medieval dudes for a while now. But looking at the art gives me the impression of Italian mercenary feel for some reason. Maybe it's the helmets.
I either get the Italian medieval mercenary thing or an asian theme in the helmets style !
I remember Josh Reynolds describing the conquest of the Mortal Realms by the Free people after the RGW as a "multidimensional reconquista" so it would fit the former if the new Free people style is based on high fantasy / steampunk (going by the short stories and novels) conquistadors.
Hulksmash wrote: The banshee unit hasn't been posted about yet. Or the new black coach or a couple of characters I think but overall a lot of good new stuff. And I hope they are starter stuff as I'll grab a few starters worth of night haunt stuff given the chance.
Also missing the mounted unit of guys with swords (not the Knight of Shrouds, the one where they have shown two different sculpts). Probably an elite cavalry unit. This is a BIG relaese!
In a span of 2 months we get 3 huge army releases and a new edition.
GW have finally went and outdone themselves. You now have to quit your job to be able to have time to enjoy all the new releases but you must do your job to be able to pay for all the new releases.
So stoked for new Darkoath, decided to ditch my Beastclaw Raiders and use the mounts and beasties for a Norsca theme. so eagerly awaiting these. Remember too in the artwork for Malign Portents were everyone is teaming up against death, by the War Queen are Marauders that don't look like anything we've seen in model form yet. Time for some Skin Wolves me thinks
So glad the generic humans seem to be going for a more suited theme to the setting. Don't get me wrong I always love the Empire but in AoS they just don't fit at all. Well as a standalone Merchant Guild, Free State etc they would be good but it made no sense for the standard armies to be themed this way when most of the Realms or Azyr in particular is just completely different.
Well, 2nd edition AoS seems to be getting more grimdark. There have been a few clues so far with hints in articles and the past 3 revealed armies all getting darker.
GW is doing what we wanted with the narrative - they're explaining the mortal realms better and they are adding more grit to the world, so yes regular humans will feel less and less out of place.
Can it get more grimdark than Warhammer Fantasy Empire? These dudes are barfoot fighting huge monsters only armed with a spear and no visible armour...
If they bring back normal humans fighting monsters without any super-strength or being overall Ubermensch like in WHFB, I'd be very happy. And I don't even have human armies. I liked that about WHFB. You got a sense that it all about normal people fighting against all odds instead of a super human slug fest, and that gave the setting some drama.
Also steampunk conquistador sounds cool. I'd like to see where they go with that.
If they have a rule that allows them to fight in close formation, I might pick them up.
Astmeister wrote: Can it get more grimdark than Warhammer Fantasy Empire? These dudes are barfoot fighting huge monsters only armed with a spear and no visible armour...
The Age of Chaos (where cannibals destroyed all civilization and the gods abandoned the Realms and you were forced to fight not only without shoes but almost entirely naked cf. the Darkoath Chieftain's tragic backstory) - or the whole Horus Heresy / Age of Ignorance civil war bringing down all that the Emperor's vision for Mankind was about - is more grimdark than the life in the Empire (where they at least had cities, cannon, faith, college of magics, trades, and GRYPHONS).
Indeed, since the Seeds of Hope, Malign portents and AOS2nd, GW is obviously making way for (alongside more fantastical races) "common" humans factions ; I hope between now and 2019 we'll see Darkoath and Freeguild.
Idk, the Empire got wrecked pretty hard after the Storm of Chaos, and they are surrounded by Beastmen, Undead, and Skaven, who tend to make frequent raids on Empire towns. The Empire doesn't sound pleasant to live in in that respect, and its a lot more believable than the Imperium, which is absurdly OTT to the point of comedy. Which is the point, because that's what 40k was.
That said, a spin off game set during Age of Chaos / pre-Empire or Pre-Imperium would be pretty cool.
Well, that is maybe not entirely on topic, but the life in the Empire is fairly better than in the Imperium or in the Mortal Realms during the Age of Chaos.
Of course, after the Storm of Chaos (i.e. a war worse than World War II, and with Deamons), the Empire was in a quite bad state. But it was retconned in 7th and 8th ed.
Compare the life in the Empire with the life in Bretonnia.
TLDR the Empire is at least an (under siege) functioning civilisation, with trades, etc.
On the other hand, the Imperium, because giant religious distopy (now worse with the warp storms everywhere), is not a "functioning" civilization, and there wasn't any civilization at all during the Age of Chaos. The Empire is doing quite well in comparison.
In AOS 2nd Ed. we will see a return of more established civilization in the Realms. And I hope, in parallel, more barbarians in the forms of the Darkoath (if the Warquen is indeed announcing the faction the other Harbingers).
Whatever man. I think when you make it more dire than the Warhammer Fantasy Empire, which is sourrounded by enemies, you will end up with a very unrealistic situation. Humans will just not be able to live there anymore.
But in the end, I just want some ordinary humans fighting against all odds. And not Sigmarine reborn undying super soldiers.
Empire Troops/Free Guild is something were their dial to 11 would actually make a lot of sense! Their plastics are simply old and even upon release the state troops were bad compared to the militia and greatswords, later the archers. They actually lost a lot of their puffy sleeves swag for crying out loud! The feathers got smaller! They went more downtrodden, but not into crazy Mordheim-esque territory, so they're just pretty bland. With less than stellar faces and sculpt quality.
More steampunk-ish muskets, repeater crossbows, ornamented armour and more puffy sleeves could look ace.
I have a couple of artworks of crazy fantasy troops that are a blend of papal guard, knights, conquistadors, Landsknecht and renaissance trappings. Like Marienburger plus awesomeness. I just don't know where in all the pics on my tablet they are. Couldn't find them on Google, either. But those were pretty damn perfect for Empire and probably Azyheim troops. I know they were posted on another forum as well when it came to "what do you want Free Guild to look like". But those would be my dream.
HorticulusDK wrote: Well, that is maybe not entirely on topic, but the life in the Empire is fairly better than in the Imperium or in the Mortal Realms during the Age of Chaos.
Of course, after the Storm of Chaos (i.e. a war worse than World War II, and with Deamons), the Empire was in a quite bad state. But it was retconned in 7th and 8th ed.
Compare the life in the Empire with the life in Bretonnia.
TLDR the Empire is at least an (under siege) functioning civilisation, with trades, etc.
On the other hand, the Imperium, because giant religious distopy (now worse with the warp storms everywhere), is not a "functioning" civilization, and there wasn't any civilization at all during the Age of Chaos. The Empire is doing quite well in comparison.
In AOS 2nd Ed. we will see a return of more established civilization in the Realms. And I hope, in parallel, more barbarians in the forms of the Darkoath (if the Warquen is indeed announcing the faction the other Harbingers).
I see your point there. The Empire, whilst in danger, was still a stable civilization.
I'd argue though that as its a functioning society, the fact that it's in danger of collapsing is actually more tragic and grimdark than there not being a working civilization.
There was a perfectly nice civilization, but now its collapsing. To me that's bleaker than there not being a civilization. The scariest part of an apocalyptic setting, imo, is when everything goes wrong, not the aftermath. The Empire was on the brink of everything going wrong.
(The topic of failling states / civilization's fall is very interesting indeed. Anyway we have to recognize Karl Franz's statesmanship. During the Storm of Chaos and before the End times, the emperor literally saved the empire and that wasn't only on the battlefield).
I believe the "everyman" way of life in the Mortal Realms will be an important part of AOS 2nd Ed. fluff, as it is quite well explained in the Malign Portents short stories.
Davor wrote: So at the 1:03 on the video above, they show trees in shadow. Could that be new terrain by chance? It's like they wanted to show it but kept it all dark to see the silhouette only.
It’s the Mortarch of Grief that we haven’t seen the model of yet.
Davor wrote: So at the 1:03 on the video above, they show trees in shadow. Could that be new terrain by chance? It's like they wanted to show it but kept it all dark to see the silhouette only.
It’s the Mortarch of Grief that we haven’t seen the model of yet.
I missed this mention? Where was it - thanks
In the Facebook WAOS post about the Nighthaunt trailer IIRC.
I've always loved the tragedy of Stormcast. Whilst regular non suped up humans provide a more 'human' story, the Stormcast were all normal human beings once, just ones with exceptional skill and will. Yes they're given super strength and immortality but their souls are now forfeit, doomed to fight eternal even when there is no hope of victory. At least when the average Joe dies, their soul has a chance to reach afterlife and gain peace.
What happens when a Stormcast dies, are they rewarded or do they gain peace for their service that would make most men and women go insane? Nope they have their soul literally hammered away until they can fight again and have whatever bit of humanity remains in them is smashed away, discarded for eternity. Their souls will never know peace and can they escape? Nope because it is by the will of a God.
Imagine whatever struggles you went through in life, when you die you are simply reborn do live through them all over again and each time you 'feel' a little less. Pretty Grimdark if you ask me.
Hope we don't have to wait too long for these Steampunk Conquistadors and Darkoath. Can't wait to see what other new pieces of art there will be.
Well, ordinary humans potentially will be slaves of Nagash or the chaos gods after they die. So the perspective of fighting for sigmar is probably better.
The major problem for me is also that Sigmarines are:
1.) a totally bland copy of Space Marines
2.) Gold
3.) wielding ridiculous warhammers
4.) immortal
2 & 3 can be changed but in the end they look like the dream of 12 year olds.
Astmeister wrote: Well, ordinary humans potentially will be slaves of Nagash or the chaos gods after they die. So the perspective of fighting for sigmar is probably better.
The major problem for me is also that Sigmarines are:
1.) a totally bland copy of Space Marines
2.) Gold
3.) wielding ridiculous warhammers
4.) immortal
2 & 3 can be changed but in the end they look like the dream of 12 year olds.
Thing is, they only look like that because adults buy tons of models with that look. If people bought more regular humans GW would make more regular humans.
We have old models for those. It's been alluded too that the marauders may well be wrapped in with the Darkoath characters. So we could see new marauder kits more in line with the Darkoath chieftain and warqueen, which would be nice.
Also addressing point 1 & 4 above, unlike space marines, Stormcast actually have personalities. And they're not immortal, it's been established since the beginning they suffer true deaths. In fact they have a massive mausoleum to remember their dead.
I hope they have models for all schools of magic. Could use them in d&d and that mouth. Could use that for a large demon I've always wanted to sculpt but affraid to try...
pm713 wrote: Doesn't work as well when they're very much emphasising the Space Marines that do most of the fighting.
If that is true, nobody needs Kharadron Overlords, Sylvaneth, Daughters of Khaine etc.
AFAIK the Stormcasts are really more like Space Marines and doing commando missions to establish a bridge head. Somebody has to also hold the ground for them.
pm713 wrote: Doesn't work as well when they're very much emphasising the Space Marines that do most of the fighting.
Yeah, its the same problem in 40k. The thing that made WHFB so special was that there were no Space Marine analogues on the "good guy" side; the only T4 units on the order side that I can think of are Dwarves and Lizards, and they don't get along well with humans. I think grail knights might be T4 as well, but they aren't their own army and are quite rare.
In 40k and AoS you have Marines and Sigmarines taking all the glory; the little guy is just there to die in droves until the big shiny heroes arrive.
Imperial Guard should have been the focus in 40k. Space Marines and their ilk should have been auxiliary.
Or possible the Deepkin whale that got mentioned earlier? If this rumour is true at all.
It's a bit more likely the claw is from a Keeper of Secrets.
The Deepkin "whale" is something that's going off this:
Spoiler:
Look in the upper right corner, you can see the whale there.
Oh, good spot. Never noticed it before.
Yeah, it's partly why I think the rumor is just wishlisting/seizing upon the image.
It doesn't look like it has any riders, it doesn't look like it's one of the Idoneth warbeasts at all. No blinders, no bladed fins, nada. I think it's just kind of there.
Same goes for the "massive octopus" rumor.
Nova_Impero wrote: There was a reference in the Deepkin battletome to a group called the Seekers of Slaanesh. I would assume this preview is a part of that.
That’s been the name of that faction since the beginning of AoS.
Nova_Impero wrote: There was a reference in the Deepkin battletome to a group called the Seekers of Slaanesh. I would assume this preview is a part of that.
That’s been the name of that faction since the beginning of AoS.
Yeah, one of three sub groups in the Hosts of Slaanesh, detailed in thr Grand Alliance Chaos book.
At any rate, having done plenty of work with Slaanesh plastics, I'd bet money that's a slaanesh claw. Could be on a spawn or something, but it's definitely Slaanesh.
I really like the Knight Incantor. I can definitely see her being used as a suicide unit to lay on 3d3 mortal wounds to a tough blob of enemies. Her spell is also really good, and being able to just unbind any enemy spell guaranteed is very, very nice against certain armies.
As with many things, it'll come down to point cost, but I'm thinking of adding her to my Deepkin force just for some extra mortal wound generation.
Geifer wrote: Maybe GW thinks Sigmarine rules are core rules.
Hah!
I like the theme of this chamber. Warrior - wizard is my favorite archetype. Too bad they haven't previewed the best models. Wonder when they'll preview the starter to go with the new version of the rules.
Also steampunk conquistador sounds cool. I'd like to see where they go with that.
I am not saying you are wrong at all, but for me, that sounds to like Warmachine and I could never get into it. Hordes I liked until I saw the Bloodtrolls with guns. I guess that is why I don't miss Bretonia at all. I never cared for guns in a Fantasy setting. Not sure how I would like Steampunk conquistadors.
Bretonnia didn't have guns though?
The worst part for me in terms of aesthetics in WM are the warjacks. I find them ugly. All of them. They're like the worst part of warcraft's design.
pm713 wrote: Doesn't work as well when they're very much emphasising the Space Marines that do most of the fighting.
Free Guild are what Imperial Guard are to Space Marines. They're far more numerous, they do most of the actual fighting and when the Sigmarines have wrecked face they move in to garrison the territory. As the art shows, they also fight alongside them. Sigmarines are the shock troops, glamorous elites who they make their posterboys, but given the vastness of the Mortal Realms they're not all that numerous compared to mere mortals.
Of course looking at the game thus far you'd never get that impression.
The off white colour doesnt look great against the gold armour. I think I'll be painting all the robes on mine blue(assuming I stick with the Hammers of Sigmar)
Nova_Impero wrote: [qI wonder if there are different models for the Knight-Incantor because this was posted on Twitter.
So looking over the Nighthaunt preview page again, I am struck by how... decidedly subpar the names are. It seems like rushed/lazy naming that has struct many miniatures over the years. Off the top of my head and keeping with GWs general themes when it comes to names...
Chainrasp Hordes could just be 'Chained Hordes' or 'Shackle Hordes'
Glaivewraith Stalkers could have been Glaive Wraiths. Simple, easy, done.
Grimghast Reapers; I think 'Blind Reapers' or 'Blindghasts' would have been better. Their fluff doesn't describe them as particularly grim anyways.
Lord Executioner, Guardian of Souls, Spirit Torment; See GW, these don't come across as ridiculous. Things don't need extra adjectives added on!
Yes I know Chapterhouse copywrite blah blah blah, but changing things to trademarkable names was always pointless anyways. I'm split because the naming from the recent Aelf battletomes was more or less good but the first half of these Nighthaunts are, well, very GW. I won't even touch the Stormcast because as a faction they were too far gone a while ago.
The names aren't anything special, but death armies are generally full of anonymous undead anyhow. At least we didn't get anything like a sloppity bilepiper or something...and I think GW has done worse than that.
I'm actually pretty impressed with all the new nighthaunt models though. I think I might like them more than the deepkin. I am kinda bummed there aren't any skaven ghosts. The horseheaded ones are cool enough. But they don't have those crazy teeth. Maybe Nagash considers rat souls not worth even putting to use.
I think even as nighthaunts skaven would be backstabbing each other. The whole idea behind these spirits is they seem to be distilled down to their defining trait in life. So imagine trying to do that with a race that has sociopathy, paranoia, and backstabbing as it's most defined traits. Having them turn out as good as generic human souls is pretty much a best-case scenario.
As for names, they have yet to beat Ripperdactyls, I hope they never will.
pm713 wrote: Doesn't work as well when they're very much emphasising the Space Marines that do most of the fighting.
Free Guild are what Imperial Guard are to Space Marines. They're far more numerous, they do most of the actual fighting and when the Sigmarines have wrecked face they move in to garrison the territory. As the art shows, they also fight alongside them. Sigmarines are the shock troops, glamorous elites who they make their posterboys, but given the vastness of the Mortal Realms they're not all that numerous compared to mere mortals.
Of course looking at the game thus far you'd never get that impression.
If it doesn't give that impression maybe that's just not how it is. Humans wander around doing whatev and Stormcast do all the fighting seeing as they just come back after death. As well garrisoning things seems redundant in AOS. You send in the Sigmarines, take the Realmgate, close it then move on. But maybe there's important stuff outside realm gates they just don't mention...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: So looking over the Nighthaunt preview page again, I am struck by how... decidedly subpar the names are. It seems like rushed/lazy naming that has struct many miniatures over the years. Off the top of my head and keeping with GWs general themes when it comes to names...
Chainrasp Hordes could just be 'Chained Hordes' or 'Shackle Hordes'
Glaivewraith Stalkers could have been Glaive Wraiths. Simple, easy, done.
Grimghast Reapers; I think 'Blind Reapers' or 'Blindghasts' would have been better. Their fluff doesn't describe them as particularly grim anyways.
Lord Executioner, Guardian of Souls, Spirit Torment; See GW, these don't come across as ridiculous. Things don't need extra adjectives added on!
Yes I know Chapterhouse copywrite blah blah blah, but changing things to trademarkable names was always pointless anyways. I'm split because the naming from the recent Aelf battletomes was more or less good but the first half of these Nighthaunts are, well, very GW. I won't even touch the Stormcast because as a faction they were too far gone a while ago.
GW is awful at naming things and even worse at attempting to justify them. A great example is Aeldari. A terrible name that serves literally just as copyright junk.
pm713 wrote: Doesn't work as well when they're very much emphasising the Space Marines that do most of the fighting.
Free Guild are what Imperial Guard are to Space Marines. They're far more numerous, they do most of the actual fighting and when the Sigmarines have wrecked face they move in to garrison the territory. As the art shows, they also fight alongside them. Sigmarines are the shock troops, glamorous elites who they make their posterboys, but given the vastness of the Mortal Realms they're not all that numerous compared to mere mortals.
Of course looking at the game thus far you'd never get that impression.
If it doesn't give that impression maybe that's just not how it is. Humans wander around doing whatev and Stormcast do all the fighting seeing as they just come back after death. As well garrisoning things seems redundant in AOS. You send in the Sigmarines, take the Realmgate, close it then move on. But maybe there's important stuff outside realm gates they just don't mention...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is like 2015-era fluff you're talking here. Stormcast taking realmgates and moving on was several hundred years ago in the lore at this point. There are huge cities, thriving societies and civilizations of all kinds depicted in the fiction now. Normal humans have a central role in most of them along with aelves and duardin since these societies are often multi-cultural. From your post it seems the last piece of fluff you read was the big book that came at the game's release.
pm713 wrote: Doesn't work as well when they're very much emphasising the Space Marines that do most of the fighting.
Free Guild are what Imperial Guard are to Space Marines. They're far more numerous, they do most of the actual fighting and when the Sigmarines have wrecked face they move in to garrison the territory. As the art shows, they also fight alongside them. Sigmarines are the shock troops, glamorous elites who they make their posterboys, but given the vastness of the Mortal Realms they're not all that numerous compared to mere mortals.
Of course looking at the game thus far you'd never get that impression.
If it doesn't give that impression maybe that's just not how it is. Humans wander around doing whatev and Stormcast do all the fighting seeing as they just come back after death. As well garrisoning things seems redundant in AOS. You send in the Sigmarines, take the Realmgate, close it then move on. But maybe there's important stuff outside realm gates they just don't mention...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is like 2015-era fluff you're talking here. Stormcast taking realmgates and moving on was several hundred years ago in the lore at this point. There are huge cities, thriving societies and civilizations of all kinds depicted in the fiction now. Normal humans have a central role in most of them along with aelves and duardin since these societies are often multi-cultural. From your post it seems the last piece of fluff you read was the big book that came at the game's release.
No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.
pm713 wrote: Doesn't work as well when they're very much emphasising the Space Marines that do most of the fighting.
Free Guild are what Imperial Guard are to Space Marines. They're far more numerous, they do most of the actual fighting and when the Sigmarines have wrecked face they move in to garrison the territory. As the art shows, they also fight alongside them. Sigmarines are the shock troops, glamorous elites who they make their posterboys, but given the vastness of the Mortal Realms they're not all that numerous compared to mere mortals.
Of course looking at the game thus far you'd never get that impression.
If it doesn't give that impression maybe that's just not how it is. Humans wander around doing whatev and Stormcast do all the fighting seeing as they just come back after death. As well garrisoning things seems redundant in AOS. You send in the Sigmarines, take the Realmgate, close it then move on. But maybe there's important stuff outside realm gates they just don't mention...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is like 2015-era fluff you're talking here. Stormcast taking realmgates and moving on was several hundred years ago in the lore at this point. There are huge cities, thriving societies and civilizations of all kinds depicted in the fiction now. Normal humans have a central role in most of them along with aelves and duardin since these societies are often multi-cultural. From your post it seems the last piece of fluff you read was the big book that came at the game's release.
You are right except for one thing : according to Spear of Shadow, it has been circa one century between the opening of the Gates of Azyr and the current status quo.
The Realmgate Wars lasted 30-50 years, and the building and expansions of the Free cities 70-50 years.
Season of War and Malign Portents show really well how the Order factions (beyond SCE) work together (sometimes with great difficulty like in Greywater Fastness, or with the relation with the Temples of Khaine).
But yeah, someone didn't read anything spring 2016
No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.
None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.
Previously, players would roll off to determine who gets to decide who gets the first turn in each battle round, with the winner getting to choose. This works in much the same way in the new edition, but now, if the players get a draw, the player that went first in the previous battle round wins the roll.
In practice, this means that you’re somewhat less likely to get hit by a double turn, while if you do have priority, you’ll have a bit more control over when your opponent gets theirs. If you’ve just had a great turn, you might want to give your opponent priority to give yourself a chance to get a double turn later on in the game, for example.
I like that. Apparently the new persistent spells "interact with the turn sequence in an interesting way" as well.
Later today they'll be looking at Everchosen and Slaves to Darkness.
I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.
It will when you're talking about those persistent spells losing efficacy because of a double turn.
It's also worth mentioning that being able to choose to go first when you didn't get the double turn is a Big Deal.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.
It will when you're talking about those persistent spells losing efficacy because of a double turn.
It's also worth mentioning that being able to choose to go first when you didn't get the double turn is a Big Deal.
If they removed the double turn it wouldn't be an issue. They talked about a "Strategic double turn"..they neglected to mention it was still 100% on random chance. That's not "strategic" it's random.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.
It will when you're talking about those persistent spells losing efficacy because of a double turn.
It's also worth mentioning that being able to choose to go first when you didn't get the double turn is a Big Deal.
If they removed the double turn it wouldn't be an issue. They talked about a "Strategic double turn"..they neglected to mention it was still 100% on random chance. That's not "strategic" it's random.
We don't know how everything else works but once again: If these new persistent spells are as powerful as the old Purple Sun of Xereus was and they last a set number of Hero Phases, then you would want to avoid double turns as much as possible. If the person who goes first in the previous battle round gets to decide, they can ensure their spell lasts longer by going second or their opponent loses their spell's usefulness by doing the same.
That change to the double turn is exactly what I've been saying they should do since the game's release, and I bet many others too. A small tweak that has a big impact. Love it!
mmzero252 wrote: I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.
Yep. It is massively impactful, and doesn't even simulate anything. It is pure game mechanics, and bad game mechanics at that.
No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.
None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.
Agreed, control over realmgates doesn't stop the Skaven Gnaw-holes which can appear anywhere and Chaos can breach the walls of reality anyway - its just so much easier to use Realmgates in their myriad forms
The great cities - the "seeds of hope" have been established but some are built on treachery (by the Changling iirc) and strife with the locals is common including with Alarielle and most are riddled with corruption, cults and internal politics
Its very "Enemy Within" but now add Daughters of Khaine having an official presence in Azyr cities and until fairly recently the undead was not totally outlawed and cultists of Nagash sought new followers as did those of other gods.
Now of course Nagash and everyone else is at war plus chaos cults but the Deepkin and Destruction raiders.
Nowhere other than Azyr is really safe and its likely that much less safe now that the gates have been open for visitors for a hundred years plus.
If they removed the double turn it wouldn't be an issue. They talked about a "Strategic double turn"..they neglected to mention it was still 100% on random chance. That's not "strategic" it's random.
It's not purely random though. It's weighted. At the very least, ties happen 1/6th of the time, so 17% of the time the choice goes to the guy who doesn't get a double turn. There may be other things affecting initiative as well.
If they removed the double turn it wouldn't be an issue. They talked about a "Strategic double turn"..they neglected to mention it was still 100% on random chance. That's not "strategic" it's random.
It's not purely random though. It's weighted. At the very least, ties happen 1/6th of the time, so 17% of the time the choice goes to the guy who doesn't get a double turn. There may be other things affecting initiative as well.
Statistically it's 1/6 of the time...every round. I rarely have seen a tie actually happen. Flipping a coin a hundred times doesn't change the chance of a heads. But they also mentioned command points. Maybe there will be some sort of method to guarantee a double turn if you need it. It will certainly offset those games where you're massively losing and MAYBE a double turn will help you.
I think it actually fixes 90% of the issues with the double turn up front. Odds are slightly lowered to get a double turn (no more rolling a 6 to avoid a double turn but your opponent does to then you roll the 1) which means it's far less swingy than it was meaning going first may have some more advantages than it used to because people won't build on the double turn as hard. Makes sense to me at least.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So looking over the Nighthaunt preview page again, I am struck by how... decidedly subpar the names are. It seems like rushed/lazy naming that has struct many miniatures over the years. Off the top of my head and keeping with GWs general themes when it comes to names...
Chainrasp Hordes could just be 'Chained Hordes' or 'Shackle Hordes'
Glaivewraith Stalkers could have been Glaive Wraiths. Simple, easy, done.
Grimghast Reapers; I think 'Blind Reapers' or 'Blindghasts' would have been better. Their fluff doesn't describe them as particularly grim anyways.
Lord Executioner, Guardian of Souls, Spirit Torment; See GW, these don't come across as ridiculous. Things don't need extra adjectives added on!
Yes I know Chapterhouse copywrite blah blah blah, but changing things to trademarkable names was always pointless anyways. I'm split because the naming from the recent Aelf battletomes was more or less good but the first half of these Nighthaunts are, well, very GW. I won't even touch the Stormcast because as a faction they were too far gone a while ago.
Blind Reaper is not as trademark-able as Grimghast Reapers. GW is trying its best to avoid really generic names.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.
It will when you're talking about those persistent spells losing efficacy because of a double turn.
It's also worth mentioning that being able to choose to go first when you didn't get the double turn is a Big Deal.
If they removed the double turn it wouldn't be an issue. They talked about a "Strategic double turn"..they neglected to mention it was still 100% on random chance. That's not "strategic" it's random.
This article is about deciding about when the double turn happens and has nothing to do what happens in the double turn strategic or otherwise.
This was a tiny (too tiny) drip of information. Hopefully there will be more articles about how the turn is actually played.
I think spending command points on interrupting the opponents turn would be a good way of mitigating the power of the double turn without completely negating it.
If the game is striving to build away from double turns, that's excellent. Hopefully these persistent spells are accessible enough and important enough that people won't just be gunning for two turns in a row all the time.
Also it would be great if the spells were usable by many factions. The spells pictured beside different factions/races in the preview worries me a bit.
mmzero252 wrote: Statistically it's 1/6 of the time...every round. I rarely have seen a tie actually happen. Flipping a coin a hundred times doesn't change the chance of a heads. But they also mentioned command points. Maybe there will be some sort of method to guarantee a double turn if you need it. It will certainly offset those games where you're massively losing and MAYBE a double turn will help you.
Double turns are part of AoS's DNA. It's one of those risk vs reward situations where you can be really aggressive, but end up leaving yourself open and vulnerable. It's impossible to get a double turn for multiple rounds in a row (for one player), so whether you even have a chance for a double turn will change how you approach the battlefield. Some people think the double turn thing is cheating and unfair, but proper strategy can help mitigate (or even embrace) the risk.
This change slightly changes the weight of initiative to favor less double turns. It doesn't remove them, because they are important to AoS, but it gives players an additional 17% chance to mitigate it.
mmzero252 wrote: Statistically it's 1/6 of the time...every round. I rarely have seen a tie actually happen. Flipping a coin a hundred times doesn't change the chance of a heads. But they also mentioned command points. Maybe there will be some sort of method to guarantee a double turn if you need it. It will certainly offset those games where you're massively losing and MAYBE a double turn will help you.
Double turns are part of AoS's DNA. It's one of those risk vs reward situations where you can be really aggressive, but end up leaving yourself open and vulnerable. It's impossible to get a double turn for multiple rounds in a row (for one player), so whether you even have a chance for a double turn will change how you approach the battlefield. Some people think the double turn thing is cheating and unfair, but proper strategy can help mitigate (or even embrace) the risk.
This change slightly changes the weight of initiative to favor less double turns. It doesn't remove them, because they are important to AoS, but it gives players an additional 17% chance to mitigate it.
In my case it's probably a lot more personal bias seeping through. The people in my area more often than not don't play objective games or on tables with proper terrain. Sparse tables and kill points every time leads to entirely too many crushing defeats. Facing down waves of enemies and being on the losing side only to have your opponent win a double turn you absolutely needed is the worst.
Maybe GW can fix things. I still vastly prefer 40k over AoS. I don't think a new version can change that since they've already stated you can use all the same battletomes. It can't REALLY be changing that much.
Be fun to see if there's more to this change to a strategic double turn. Previously you could just house rule the damn thing out of existence and pretend that everything is wonderful. If they introduce rules interactions with and reliance on the double turn, that'll get a whole lot harder.
No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.
None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.
Agreed, control over realmgates doesn't stop the Skaven Gnaw-holes which can appear anywhere and Chaos can breach the walls of reality anyway - its just so much easier to use Realmgates in their myriad forms
The great cities - the "seeds of hope" have been established but some are built on treachery (by the Changling iirc) and strife with the locals is common including with Alarielle and most are riddled with corruption, cults and internal politics
Its very "Enemy Within" but now add Daughters of Khaine having an official presence in Azyr cities and until fairly recently the undead was not totally outlawed and cultists of Nagash sought new followers as did those of other gods.
Now of course Nagash and everyone else is at war plus chaos cults but the Deepkin and Destruction raiders.
Nowhere other than Azyr is really safe and its likely that much less safe now that the gates have been open for visitors for a hundred years plus.
Is there an offical explanation of the interaction of gnaw holes and the like with closing off Azyr in the Age of Chaos? Seems kind of pointless to shut the realmgates if Chaos can just circumvent them.
mmzero252 wrote: Statistically it's 1/6 of the time...every round. I rarely have seen a tie actually happen. Flipping a coin a hundred times doesn't change the chance of a heads. But they also mentioned command points. Maybe there will be some sort of method to guarantee a double turn if you need it. It will certainly offset those games where you're massively losing and MAYBE a double turn will help you.
Double turns are part of AoS's DNA. It's one of those risk vs reward situations where you can be really aggressive, but end up leaving yourself open and vulnerable. It's impossible to get a double turn for multiple rounds in a row (for one player), so whether you even have a chance for a double turn will change how you approach the battlefield. Some people think the double turn thing is cheating and unfair, but proper strategy can help mitigate (or even embrace) the risk.
This change slightly changes the weight of initiative to favor less double turns. It doesn't remove them, because they are important to AoS, but it gives players an additional 17% chance to mitigate it.
In my case it's probably a lot more personal bias seeping through. The people in my area more often than not don't play objective games or on tables with proper terrain. Sparse tables and kill points every time leads to entirely too many crushing defeats. Facing down waves of enemies and being on the losing side only to have your opponent win a double turn you absolutely needed is the worst.
Maybe GW can fix things. I still vastly prefer 40k over AoS. I don't think a new version can change that since they've already stated you can use all the same battletomes. It can't REALLY be changing that much.
Well since match play isn't supposed to be just line up and kill I'd start there. Especially since we have 12 pretty balanced match play scenarios between the two Handbooks at this point. Not sure how if you're playing on table with sparse/improper terrain you'd prefer 40k at this point because 40k hammers you flat with shooting on bad tables.
I actually find both versions more enjoyable with lots of terrain, not just AoS, and I play with shooty armies in 40k. Just feels like there's more strategy than having free range to demolish somebody. But it's definitely a weird local player thing here to just jump right into a game and never bother opening a general's handbook. I want to like AoS, I really do...but I'll probably have to move to actually make that happen.
But on topic, I can certainly see where a tiny extra chance to decide is good. I'm still curious about the command points. It would be nice if they didn't make a dozen+ different strategems for each faction like in 40k. Some are so situational they never get used and when the situation comes up you forgot they existed. Some of the more repeated ones are great and things like rerolling die or interrupting combat would work well. Not sure how they're going to determine how many you get since detachments aren't a thing.
No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.
None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.
Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.
From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.
No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.
None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.
Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.
From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.
Do tell where I'm wrong there.
I did say above:
Chaos can break through anyway - its just harder - other sorcerers can do as well - again its really hard but doable. But if you can control a super giant stargate thingy that you don't have to power and can send armies through - much better
Skaven can and do tunnel in anywhere.
Corrupted gates are mostly sealed not destroyed so they can be breached.
mmzero252 wrote: I actually find both versions more enjoyable with lots of terrain, not just AoS, and I play with shooty armies in 40k. Just feels like there's more strategy than having free range to demolish somebody. But it's definitely a weird local player thing here to just jump right into a game and never bother opening a general's handbook. I want to like AoS, I really do...but I'll probably have to move to actually make that happen.
But on topic, I can certainly see where a tiny extra chance to decide is good. I'm still curious about the command points. It would be nice if they didn't make a dozen+ different strategems for each faction like in 40k. Some are so situational they never get used and when the situation comes up you forgot they existed. Some of the more repeated ones are great and things like rerolling die or interrupting combat would work well. Not sure how they're going to determine how many you get since detachments aren't a thing.
Wow. That sucks. Objective play is essential to making aos an enjoyable and tactical game. That's why every single book comes with battleplans. There are literally hundreds to choose from at this point.
It is worth noting that they also wrote "There will be some other advantages to going second each battle round as well…"
...which to me means there might be something additional in those turns. Let's simply think about mystic shield: you cast it on turn one, round one, opponent goes, gets double turn, you have the +1 save for 3 turns straight, which is not bad at all.
Got to say, I'm getting more and more hyped with this release!
That might be as simple as objectives in some missions being scored at the end of a battle round; going second gives you a chance to grab them without worrying about getting shoved off them.
No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.
None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.
Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.
From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.
Do tell where I'm wrong there.
I did say above:
Chaos can break through anyway - its just harder - other sorcerers can do as well - again its really hard but doable. But if you can control a super giant stargate thingy that you don't have to power and can send armies through - much better
Skaven can and do tunnel in anywhere.
Corrupted gates are mostly sealed not destroyed so they can be breached.
If you can completely seal off Azyrheim you can seal off anywhere or just blow up the things.
In any other universe I'd talk about how absolutely stupid that sounds. But you know what? **** it. You can dig to other Realms. I'll go tell NASA to ditch rockets and get spades.
A step in the right direction in my book. Maybe not enough all things considered, but I'd rather have small steps taken at a time than a completely different game with each new edition.
No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.
None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.
Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.
From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.
Do tell where I'm wrong there.
I did say above:
Chaos can break through anyway - its just harder - other sorcerers can do as well - again its really hard but doable. But if you can control a super giant stargate thingy that you don't have to power and can send armies through - much better
Skaven can and do tunnel in anywhere.
Corrupted gates are mostly sealed not destroyed so they can be breached.
If you can completely seal off Azyrheim you can seal off anywhere or just blow up the things.
In any other universe I'd talk about how absolutely stupid that sounds. But you know what? **** it. You can dig to other Realms. I'll go tell NASA to ditch rockets and get spades.
You're aware that the realms aren't planets, right?
Maybe it's nothing, but they also mentioned something coming for Everchosen and Slaves to Darkness, and those guys in the front are Blightkings, but with Everchosen colors...
(Also that thing in the background looks like the Glottkin or a GUO...)
What if Everchosen/Slaves to Darkness can take mortal Chaos battlelines and "battleline if..." units from chaos gods' specific armies? Like, Blightknights, Blood Warriors and such? Making them effectively the "Stormcasts" of chaos, having them ally with any chaos faction...
mmzero252 wrote: I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.
It will when you're talking about those persistent spells losing efficacy because of a double turn.
It's also worth mentioning that being able to choose to go first when you didn't get the double turn is a Big Deal.
If they removed the double turn it wouldn't be an issue. They talked about a "Strategic double turn"..they neglected to mention it was still 100% on random chance. That's not "strategic" it's random.
Exactly this. Is it better than what we currently have? Certainly is. Is it strategic? Lol. Um, no.
A friend of mine had a great idea for this. Was saying whoever doesn’t get the first turn, automatically goes first turn 3. I think that would be great.
My biggest gripe with the GW designers is the amount of random crap they tend to throw in. It doesn’t make games better. It makes them unpredictable and not as fun. I love AoS and I’ll continue to play, but I’m definitely lamenting the missed opportunity.
The Everchosen, in particular, have a deadly advantage in the new edition with the Overlords of Chaos warscroll battalion. Made up of Archaon, a Gaunt Summoner and a unit of Varanguard – all great units in their own right – this formation means that turn priority is always fifty-fifty, rather than providing either player with an advantage, as well as letting you know if you’re going to get a double turn or not.
Not sure how an even 50/50 means letting you know if you are going to get a double turn...
Not a whole lot of info from a rules standpoint, but it's interesting to know that Archaon is going to be cheaper. It may be easier to fit him into an army now.
The Everchosen, in particular, have a deadly advantage in the new edition with the Overlords of Chaos warscroll battalion. Made up of Archaon, a Gaunt Summoner and a unit of Varanguard – all great units in their own right – this formation means that turn priority is always fifty-fifty, rather than providing either player with an advantage, as well as letting you know if you’re going to get a double turn or not.
Not sure how an even 50/50 means letting you know if you are going to get a double turn...
The battalion ability means you don't roll off for the double-turn. The player with that battalion rolls a die at the beginning of the battle round and hide it. Only he knows the result. If it's 1-3, the other player will get the first turn next round. If it's 4-6, he will go first. It's 50/50, but the player controlling the battalion will always know whether on not he gets a double turn.
No I just don't think there's any difference. The Realmgates are the key to everything. If Sigmar has taken all the Realmgates in a Realm then that Realm is safe and secure. If not then he just needs to take the remaining Realmgates and shut them to make it so. In the cities and whatnot then there may well be normal humans and such but they don't really need to fight much and certainly not on the same scale as the Sigmarines do.
None of that is supported by anything in the fluff since Kirby was ousted. You're making assumptions based off of Realmgate Wars-era fluff, and the story has moved way past that.
Am I? If you have no presence in a Realm the only way into it is via a Realmgate. So by controlling and sealing all the Realmgates you isolate all enemy forces in this Realm. Then as they're still mortals the Chaos forces are forced to either raid or build their own cities to sustain themselves or they die. In this way you can clear the Realms one by one by just controlling the gates and crushing the Chaos forces one by one.
From the perspective of Order alligned humans that's the only way they can win. They cannot form a peace with Chaos and if they don't seal themselves off Chaos WILL overwhelm them all because they're literally endless. Now this isn't the only way to beat Chaos generally but it is for Order humanity. If you want to beat Chaos by taking the fight to them then Order's doomed. You need a self restoring army that also grows it's numbers or in other words you need the Grand Jerk Nagash.
Do tell where I'm wrong there.
I did say above:
Chaos can break through anyway - its just harder - other sorcerers can do as well - again its really hard but doable. But if you can control a super giant stargate thingy that you don't have to power and can send armies through - much better
Skaven can and do tunnel in anywhere.
Corrupted gates are mostly sealed not destroyed so they can be breached.
If you can completely seal off Azyrheim you can seal off anywhere or just blow up the things.
In any other universe I'd talk about how absolutely stupid that sounds. But you know what? **** it. You can dig to other Realms. I'll go tell NASA to ditch rockets and get spades.
You joke but what if that "spade" you're going for creates dimensional wormholes. Science thinks its possible even if we don't understand how it would work or when we'll get there.
As for AoS remember that Azyrheim is Sigmar's domain. He's a god but not an all powerful one. He could seal off Azyheim because of his personal power and it being his. That stands to reason that his power gets diluted if he starts "shielding" the other realms. Which makes them vulnerable to magic wormholes that can be created to jump from realm to realm. Hence no special water walkway in Azyrheim but the deepkin could develop it in other realms to jump realm to realm.
Moot since Sigmar is not even close to controlling all the Realmgates. And sealing means no one goes in OR out, realmgate or otherwise. Also, wherever it is Skaven get in, fast, unless it is completely sealed off. Back in the realmgate wars one of the first events to happen was the discovery of Ghal Maraz's location; a stormcast sees it before he dies then reports it to sigmar after being reforged. In that metting there is a skaven listening in. Not only had they already gotten into Azyr but they were literally in Sigmar's throne room.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.
Yep. It is massively impactful, and doesn't even simulate anything. It is pure game mechanics, and bad game mechanics at that.
yeah that's terrible. I hope that this is not their idea of adding more depth to the game, or else 2nd edition will be as shallow as the first one
I don't think Realmgates are the only way to travel. In the Malign Portents story The Clockmaker Tale, Nighthaunts seemed to be coming out of a broken clock, purchased from Shyish, in Azyrheim.
Back on topic, it seems command points are connected to command abilities. Let's just hope they can't be abused too much.
Marleymoo wrote: I don't think Realmgates are the only way to travel. In the Malign Portents story The Clockmaker Tale, Nighthaunts seemed to be coming out of a broken clock, purchased from Shyish, in Azyrheim.
Back on topic, it seems command points are connected to command abilities. Let's just hope they can't be abused too much.
Maybe command abilities have a activation cost that is paid from your command point pool? So as long as you have the points you can activate any ability your units have.
Marleymoo wrote: I don't think Realmgates are the only way to travel. In the Malign Portents story The Clockmaker Tale, Nighthaunts seemed to be coming out of a broken clock, purchased from Shyish, in Azyrheim.
Back on topic, it seems command points are connected to command abilities. Let's just hope they can't be abused too much.
They were in the clock when he bought it. On the second point, agreed.
mmzero252 wrote: Statistically it's 1/6 of the time...every round. I rarely have seen a tie actually happen. Flipping a coin a hundred times doesn't change the chance of a heads. But they also mentioned command points. Maybe there will be some sort of method to guarantee a double turn if you need it. It will certainly offset those games where you're massively losing and MAYBE a double turn will help you.
Double turns are part of AoS's DNA. It's one of those risk vs reward situations where you can be really aggressive, but end up leaving yourself open and vulnerable. It's impossible to get a double turn for multiple rounds in a row (for one player), so whether you even have a chance for a double turn will change how you approach the battlefield. Some people think the double turn thing is cheating and unfair, but proper strategy can help mitigate (or even embrace) the risk.
This change slightly changes the weight of initiative to favor less double turns. It doesn't remove them, because they are important to AoS, but it gives players an additional 17% chance to mitigate it.
In my case it's probably a lot more personal bias seeping through. The people in my area more often than not don't play objective games or on tables with proper terrain. Sparse tables and kill points every time leads to entirely too many crushing defeats. Facing down waves of enemies and being on the losing side only to have your opponent win a double turn you absolutely needed is the worst.
Maybe GW can fix things. I still vastly prefer 40k over AoS. I don't think a new version can change that since they've already stated you can use all the same battletomes. It can't REALLY be changing that much.
Wow, that to me would be like, say, removing the shooting phase from the game. You simply can't play a normal game without objectives. I would start working on getting your group to play proper games if I were you!
That's my assessment as well. In my admittedly limited experience (not that many games played, although at least an even mix of objectives and annihilation) there are too many armies for which it doesn't make a difference whether they use the double turn to cripple the opposing army's ability to fight back effectively or cripple its ability to score objectives effectively.
They easily could have said "After this model has moved, each unit it passed over and each unit within 1" at the end of it's move, suffers D3 mortal wounds."
It's almost like an essay from school where you're missing 15 words and just throw more in to make up the difference.
but that would lead to arguments about whether it actually has any effect on units where it misses all the models but does move through the space occupied (nope)
and whether a unit it passes across but ends up within 1" of gets 2x D3 mortal wounds (nope)
The model itself looks big enough that it shouldn't have any issue from models being spaced too far apart in a unit though. I feel like the way it's worded now is going to lead to more arguments than a more simplified wording would.
When this model moves, place a marker next to any unit that this model passes across. At the end of its movement, each unit with a marker, and each unit within 1" of this model, suffer d3 mortal wounds. In addition, subtract 1 from the bravery for each unit that had a marker placed next to it by this model until the end of the battle round. At the end of the Battle round, remove all markers placed by this model.
When this model moves, place a marker next to any unit that this model passes across. At the end of its movement, each unit with a marker, and each unit within 1" of this model, suffer d3 mortal wounds. In addition, subtract 1 from the bravery for each unit that had a marker placed next to it by this model until the end of the battle round. At the end of the Battle round, remove all markers placed by this model.
It is, but this is GW, not Fantasy Flight. They typically don’t use markers. I would go with something like this:
This model can freely move over units. At the end of this model’s movement, each unit within 1” and any unit it moved over suffers D3 mortal wounds. In addition, any unit that suffered mortal wounds from this model also suffers a -1 penalty to Bravery.
Really you just need to replace “that has” with “containing” to make it flow much more smoothly:
“After this model has moved, each unit containing any models it passed across, and each other unit that is within 1" of it at the end of its move, suffers D3 mortal wounds. In addition, subtract 1 from the Bravery characteristic of each unit that contains any models it passed across during its movement, until the end of the battle round.”
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: lots of salt but faeit 212 is suggesting this is the new AoS starter contents
If so, bring me my skellibones
I wouldn't be surprised, although I think the female Knight Incantor model from the faction focus warscroll could be in there as well.
Exactly, this is the Starter set's content + the female K-I, and the Nighthaunt wizard Guardian of Souls (with the green lantern on a pole).
If that is the case, that's quite the hefty load of minis for a starter box, I'd be very impressed. I'd have guessed a mounted character, and 2 units at most, not so many on foot characters/elites, as they like to sell those $35 clamshells so bad.
Yeah, they're "suggesting it" because of speculation here and elsewhere that those are the contents because the sculptors were on hand with most of those specific models behind them on a placard
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't--but it's really just Faeit being Faeit and stealing speculation as "fact".
However more likely than anything else we've seen not because of the placard but because these were the units detailed in the faction focus. Not only that but it seems a reasonable bunch of models for a starter set. The heroes are a bit more iffy but the rest seems like the obvious choice, from what we've seen anyway.
This is the most reasonable suggestion for starter box contents I've seen thus far.
faeslayer wrote: Food for thought- those models plus the incantor is 53 models, same as Dark Imperium, unless these beers are messing woth my math slills.
Those models also give a huuuuuge advantage in Wounds to the Stormcast side, to the point where the Nighthaunt would need to be doubled in its weedier stuff to par it up.
You're also looking at 3 Nighthaunt Heroes vs 2 Stormcast and 3 Nighthaunt units vs 4 Stormcast units.
If you start numbering from left to right and top to bottom then I say Nighthaunt get 1,5,6,10 and the Stormcast get 3,4,8. At least that is what I think is most likely.
Yeah, they're "suggesting it" because of speculation here and elsewhere that those are the contents because the sculptors were on hand with most of those specific models behind them on a placard
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't--but it's really just Faeit being Faeit and stealing speculation as "fact".
If you suggest something it isn't fact. None of the article on faeit mentions anything but rumours either.
Gallahad wrote: If you start numbering from left to right and top to bottom then I say Nighthaunt get 1,5,6,10 and the Stormcast get 3,4,8. At least that is what I think is most likely.
Not sure what this post is referring to. I think the set will also contain the two wizards. As far wound count, at a guess I would put a slight advantage to the nighthaunt side.
Battleline would be 20 wounds against 16 (2 each for the Stormcast). Elite is 18 versus 19 (assuming 3 wounds for the wizards) heroes would be 15 versus 5 but stormcast get the warmarchine which might be 5 or 6. The two mounted characters will be similar, say 8 each. That would make 61 wounds for nighthaunt versus 54 for stormcast.
That would make 54 minis. One more than dark imperium.
Looking at the minis you can see several pairs of identical minis. Like dark imperium I think you will get one duplicated sprue and two unique sprue for each faction.
Further evidence can be seen in the Warhammerfest displays. There were two lord executioner sculpts, two knight Incantor sculpts, two versions of the nighthaunt wizards and alternative versions of the stormcast warmarchine, wizards and sequitors.
This strongly suggests one individual set for each and one for the starter.
I just hope it is like the Dark Imperium box with the full rule book, I loved that format.
Also I would be very happy if they did a starter with an equal amount of points for both sides. Even if is a weird number like 968 that forces you to buy some units to round it to 1000 but at least a balanced one.
And if not, a way to balance it with the scenarios, but anyways, they have my money.
It will probably come with the rulebook but also be more expensive, same as Dark Imperium.
I wonder how and in what capacity the ghost knight kits will be released. Their bases are sculpted which perplexes me...what exactly are they meant to be?
Aren73 wrote: It will probably come with the rulebook but also be more expensive, same as Dark Imperium.
I wonder how and in what capacity the ghost knight kits will be released. Their bases are sculpted which perplexes me...what exactly are they meant to be?
If they're not in the starter probably an easy to build set with sculpted bases like the Shadespire models get.
Which seems a bit weird to me as these are nice, large, impressive models. Kind of like the dracothan guard stormcast guys, they seem like an equivalent to those for Nighthaunt.
I wouldn't see GW putting dracothian guard in an easy to build set. Why would they? These don't seem like models that are the core of your army, rather ones that are an expansion to an already existing force.
I don't know....they seem a bit too impressive/good to be made into a starter easy to build set.
Then again there is an easy to build redemptor dreadnaught...so who knows
Aren73 wrote: It will probably come with the rulebook but also be more expensive, same as Dark Imperium.
I wonder how and in what capacity the ghost knight kits will be released. Their bases are sculpted which perplexes me...what exactly are they meant to be?
If they're not in the starter probably an easy to build set with sculpted bases like the Shadespire models get.
Or it's new bases being shown off.
40k has a few different sets of sculpted bases while AoS just has the Shattered Dominion set.
Aren73 wrote: It will probably come with the rulebook but also be more expensive, same as Dark Imperium.
I wonder how and in what capacity the ghost knight kits will be released. Their bases are sculpted which perplexes me...what exactly are they meant to be?
You’re assuming that it has a rule book instead of just a pamphlet again.
Gallahad wrote: If you start numbering from left to right and top to bottom then I say Nighthaunt get 1,5,6,10 and the Stormcast get 3,4,8. At least that is what I think is most likely.
Not sure what this post is referring to. I think the set will also contain the two wizards. As far wound count, at a guess I would put a slight advantage to the nighthaunt side.
Battleline would be 20 wounds against 16 (2 each for the Stormcast). Elite is 18 versus 19 (assuming 3 wounds for the wizards) heroes would be 15 versus 5 but stormcast get the warmarchine which might be 5 or 6. The two mounted characters will be similar, say 8 each. That would make 61 wounds for nighthaunt versus 54 for stormcast.
That would make 54 minis. One more than dark imperium.
Looking at the minis you can see several pairs of identical minis. Like dark imperium I think you will get one duplicated sprue and two unique sprue for each faction.
You can also see 'several pairs of identical minis' when you're talking about actual boxed sets. The Chainrasp Hordes, when shown off in that set of 20, looked to me to be more of what you'd see from an actual boxed set.
Further evidence can be seen in the Warhammerfest displays. There were two lord executioner sculpts, two knight Incantor sculpts, two versions of the nighthaunt wizards and alternative versions of the stormcast warmarchine, wizards and sequitors.
This strongly suggests one individual set for each and one for the starter.
Or it suggests that a few of the kits will have different builds.
The Knight Incantors, I'll grant you, totally seem to be one for the starter(the female) and one for general release(the male with Infinity Gauntlet that hasn't been shown by GW proper yet). The Nighthaunt Wizards are two different builds per GW itself, the Stormcast Warmachine has only had one version shown(but a couple different versions of the crew), the Sequitors have had two different builds for the kit shown(sword+shield, weird mace+shield), and the Wizards have a second kit build that was seen at the event as well.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The Heraldor has two different models (for some unknown reason, same equipment and everything) both released outside the starter.
To be fair, one of them got moved to Direct Only when the other came out. I can't remember which one came first but there's only one of the two models available in shops the other has to be special ordered.
Edit: So Knight-Heraldor 2(the direct only one) was the first one released. He's in the Arcane Heroes pack for Silver Tower as well.
mmzero252 wrote: I'd have preferred the double turn gone rather than barely changed. I don't think persistent spells and being able to choose on a tie are going to make up for the awful system.
Yep. It is massively impactful, and doesn't even simulate anything. It is pure game mechanics, and bad game mechanics at that.
yeah that's terrible. I hope that this is not their idea of adding more depth to the game, or else 2nd edition will be as shallow as the first one
Aye, suppose I won't be moving on the Snake Lady Army then, which my wallet is happy about. AOS has far too many NPE for me, although I could have been interested if they removed my #1 ... but so it goes. Will keep watching from the sidelines, see what cool minis come out to be parlayed into tighter games.
I love AoS' take on CP infinitely more than 40k's. Linking it to abilities on characters makes some potentially new interesting choices at the list-building level, and they're far more finite in scope, so no formation abuse to farm obscene amounts.
Also, not-linking them to strategems means retroactive books won't be at an instant deficit (or in the case of 40k armies without books yet)
Lord Kragan wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/18/18th-may-rules-preview-command-abilities-and-command-pointsgw-homepage-post-2/
There's no stratagems! Hooray!
Doesn't seem that different from stratagems, its just also tied to hero-hammer.
Command points from warscrolls to activate hero abilities.
Which you get one per round. Which is a fancy way of saying: one per turn unless you picked a batallion, then you get one more point per game. So basically business as usual bar, in some fringe cases, a turn where you get two command abilities. That's nowhere close the level of saturation that 40k has.
Lord Kragan wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/18/18th-may-rules-preview-command-abilities-and-command-pointsgw-homepage-post-2/
There's no stratagems! Hooray!
Doesn't seem that different from stratagems, its just also tied to hero-hammer.
Command points from warscrolls to activate hero abilities.
Which you get one per round. Which is a fancy way of saying: one per turn unless you picked a batallion, then you get one more point per game. So basically business as usual bar, in some fringe cases, a turn where you get two command abilities. That's nowhere close the level of saturation that 40k has.
Still pretty bad. Armies that have useful battalions get multiple command abilities and those without don't get a thing as they watch the others get buffs. Fun.
I gotta love that hyperbole. WHOW they can do two abilities once out of five times per game! Meanwhile mine only gets to be stuck at once per battleround all game long.
And it becomes more funny once you hear that, according to a guy with insider info, battallions no longer give bonus artifacts unless you spend a command point to get get another artifiact.
I gotta love that hyperbole. WHOW they can do two abilities once out of five times per game! Meanwhile mine only gets to be stuck at once per battleround all game long.
And it becomes more funny once you hear that, according to a guy with insider info, battallions no longer give bonus artifacts unless you spend a command point to get get another artifiact.
That's not the hyperbole. The hyperbole is me saying that GW simply wants to push out everyone who played Fantasy so they cover up their awful treatment of it and before you know it AOS will get the same thing and then you'll all be like me.
It seems to me like a better option for alternate turns, CP, and stratagems would to have a small pool of CP generated each turn, each player secretly bids none to all their CP to see who goes first that turn, and ties go to the loser of the previous turn or a roll off on the 1st.
Lord Kragan wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/18/18th-may-rules-preview-command-abilities-and-command-pointsgw-homepage-post-2/
There's no stratagems! Hooray!
Doesn't seem that different from stratagems, its just also tied to hero-hammer.
Command points from warscrolls to activate hero abilities.
Which you get one per round. Which is a fancy way of saying: one per turn unless you picked a batallion, then you get one more point per game. So basically business as usual bar, in some fringe cases, a turn where you get two command abilities. That's nowhere close the level of saturation that 40k has.
One per round plus one for each battalion at the start of the game. So not 'one turn where you can get two'. But turns where you can accumulate and a pile you can cheese during list building. That sounds a lot like 40k strats to me.
Just stack em up and use a bunch at once to hand out extra attacks, rerolls, immunity to battleshock and etc when it matters.
My hope is that armies do not get army-specific stratagems, instead the focus is placed mostly on the characters and their Command Abilities.
Combine that with the method by which you generate Command points and it really helps to stem the problems 40k has with the Command Dice.
EDIT: Even if they do include army-specific strategms, the way you generate command points is so much more elegant. I wish 40k did it this way. Everyone is generally equal and the system does not massively favor battalion/detachment spam.
We don't have 100% of the rules, but it doesn't take long for the whiners and salt shakers to come out of the woodworks.
I just got into Idoneth Deepkin. Our cheapest Battalion is 100 points. Paying that and then also getting ONE extra command point through the entire game seems like a decent trade-off.
I'm sure they'll make more adjustments to other battalions through older battletomes, and they've already announced that some commanders have gotten cheaper, probably to count for the fact that they may not be able to get their command ability off every turn depending on how you use those points. Like I said, we don't have 100% of the rules, so a lot of this is just conjecture.
So far, I like the changes to the rules. One per turn is easy to keep track of. Getting one whole extra point for having a battalion isn't game breaking. It's not an auto-win, and it's often more a tax than anything. Many players will still prefer to have better efficiency of points rather than a situational bonus.
Here's hoping AoS keeps going in, what I perceive to be, the right direction.
Red_Five wrote: My hope is that armies do not get army-specific stratagems, instead the focus is placed mostly on the characters and their Command Abilities.
Combine that with the method by which you generate Command points and it really helps to stem the problems 40k has with the Command Dice.
EDIT: Even if they do include army-specific strategms, the way you generate command points is so much more elegant. I wish 40k did it this way. Everyone is generally equal and the system does not massively favor battalion/detachment spam.
I hope they don't add stratagems at all, just let command points be for command abilities and all is well. Army allegiance already fills the gap that army-specific stratagems do in 40k (and then some).
Red_Five wrote: My hope is that armies do not get army-specific stratagems, instead the focus is placed mostly on the characters and their Command Abilities.
Combine that with the method by which you generate Command points and it really helps to stem the problems 40k has with the Command Dice.
EDIT: Even if they do include army-specific strategms, the way you generate command points is so much more elegant. I wish 40k did it this way. Everyone is generally equal and the system does not massively favor battalion/detachment spam.
They specifically said in the article that new books are going to have more ways of generating points though so there will be a codex/index type disparity between those who have to save up over turns and those who have extra from relics etc.
They didn't say it was related to relics or anything of that nature.
If I had to guess, it's not going to be tied strictly to army books. I'd guess we'll see scenarios and various other situational things to change it added via campaign books and the GHB.
Lord Kragan wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/18/18th-may-rules-preview-command-abilities-and-command-pointsgw-homepage-post-2/
There's no stratagems! Hooray!
Doesn't seem that different from stratagems, its just also tied to hero-hammer.
Command points from warscrolls to activate hero abilities.
Which you get one per round. Which is a fancy way of saying: one per turn unless you picked a batallion, then you get one more point per game. So basically business as usual bar, in some fringe cases, a turn where you get two command abilities. That's nowhere close the level of saturation that 40k has.
Still pretty bad. Armies that have useful battalions get multiple command abilities and those without don't get a thing as they watch the others get buffs. Fun.
I don't think this is right.
I read is as everyone generates 1 per turn, which goes into a pool that can be used at any time, plus you get 1 at the start of the game per Warscroll Battalion. So everyone will get 5 to use over the course of the game, plus 1 or 2 depending on the number of battalions you use (because most won't be able to squeeze more than this number of battalions in.
I think this opens up some interesting strategies, particularly with the new generic command abilities. You could save your points up to use on turn 2 or 3, giving you perhaps a pool of 2-5 command points to help you charge, run, avoid battleshock, or one of your hero's abilities, or perhaps you play one every turn. And of course, you need your heroes nearby in order to use them, meaning movement is a bit more important.
Hopefully the battalions go down in points or at least stay the same.
What I hope to see is some wascroll tweaks to have more Command Abilities on some factions. Sylvaneths for instance only have Alarielle having a command ability, thus making the "Everyone can use their command abilities" useless for Sylvaneths. Similar case goes for Kharadrons, with only the Admiral and Brokk having command abilities.
I really, really like this take on command points. Introducing strategems would've increased the complexity of the game and slowed it down (as we have seen in 40k from index > codex). What we get instead is a way to make more use of existing abilities, introducing more tactical choice without requiring any sort of change to existing units or battletomes. Very clever!
That’s not all – Slaanesh is receiving some powerful new summoning mechanics in the new edition. Using the new Depravity Points system, you’ll be able to bring anything from Daemonettes to a Keeper of Secrets onto the tabletop WITHOUT spending reinforcement points. Generating Depravity Points is very thematic– you’ll score one for every wound your Heroes inflict on a foe without killing them, or every non-fatal wound they receive in return – representing how the servants of the Dark Prince draw power from suffering and cruelty. They’re not the only faction to be receiving summoning changes, either…
Interesting summoning mechanic. So have all single wound models and then your opponent can't summon? Don't attack the multi wound enemies as well? I guess not a good tactic but a tactic to play mind games if you know your opponent wants to summon and it's a way he/she can't.
How many demons can you summon per depravity point though?
If its a whole unit of demonettes for 1 point then that "wound but no killing" restriction doesn't matter.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: How many demons can you summon per depravity point though?
If its a whole unit of demonettes for 1 point then that "wound but no killing" restriction doesn't matter.
Going off of how Maggotkin works, it's whole units/monsters with different amounts of points for different sizes of units and a restriction of no named characters.
It's probably increments of 6, Slaanesh's favored number. Named characters may more may noy be present since maggotkin can summon in named ones with their version.
Battletome: Maggotkin of Nurgle was designed to work with the new edition (it’s even got the new logo on the cover!) and you’ll find the new rules bring a lot of benefits to a Nurgle army – from Look Out, Sir!, to command points, to some exciting (and major) changes we haven’t even looked at yet…
Look out sir! is coming. I doubt this will put an end to character sniping per say, but will hamper it.
You can talk all you like about balance pros and cons, but I know from a fluffier perspective I found the horrendously poor survivability of non-monster characters very offputting on the occasions I tried AoS. Generals and other officers shouldn’t be deleted in the opening volleys of a game very often.
Next week’s preorder is an odd one.
All the Shadespire warbands without cards and for a slightly lower price.
Edit.
Feels like a pre new edition filler release. Aos2 preorder the following week seems likely.
Chikout wrote: Next week’s preorder is an odd one.
All the Shadespire warbands without cards and for a slightly lower price.
Edit.
Feels like a pre new edition filler release. Aos2 preorder the following week seems likely.
Of course this happens when I just ordered the Steelheart's champion from e-bay at pretty steep price! Oh well. Welcome addition nevertheless.
Reading through the Maggotkin preview... No offense to the writers but the advice was totally off the mark for how to build a Nurgle army. And the example they gave of a strong command ability combo was even worse.
Chikout wrote: Next week’s preorder is an odd one.
All the Shadespire warbands without cards and for a slightly lower price.
Edit.
Feels like a pre new edition filler release. Aos2 preorder the following week seems likely.
Either that, or some 40k in between (Knight ?) - because the way GW talk about the Faction focus and little preview articles, it seems they still have loads (well if you are right that's still 3 weeks of previews, but you see what I mean).
Hope you are right, and happy for the Shadespire warbands !
Chikout wrote: This looks good. A nice small change that makes heroes a bit more survivable.
It damned well better be accompanied by Waywatchers regaining their ability to pick out Heroes and getting a bonus when shooting at them.
Old world models are getting phased out, maybe they have a similar rule in 9th Age? You sound like you'd like 9th Age.
When AoS first dropped, Waywatchers had a 'remain stationary and gain +1 to hit versus Monsters and Heroes' bit. It's since been changed to a flat 'stay still and get +1 to hit'.
My statement is that they should get the +1 to hit v. Monsters/Heroes back and keep their static +1 to hit. They're character/monster killers plain and simple.
Can I get my Waywatcher Hero to be my premiere ranged hero?
Because for the points cost he is currently, he's overpriced for what he does. He has been since GHB dropped.
No, he isn't. You are just portraying the things you play as overly bad, again. You've been doing it since AoS launched. I would run the numbers but I know from experience at this point you won't listen to them.
I'm not sure the exchange of points for command points is worth it. Perhaps, if I end up having 50 points to spare. Alternatively, if I'd want to build an all - in army that wants to win the game on first turn.
Thebiggesthat wrote: He's too many points because he's getting slowly faded out, just like some of the older stuff. The sooner people just accept that the old world is dead and only stragglers remain.
He's "too many points" because some ranged units cost more than a comparable close combat unit with superior abilities.
For example, compare Namarti Reavers to Thralls. Reavers cost the same as Thralls but Thralls are arguably a superior choice.
Statements like 'I hope my old army has this old world rule' are just begging for a 9 age demo game.
Why would I want a demo game for some crummy fanmade system that keeps the worst parts of 8th?
And the 'well they had it at the start of AoS' is just further proof they are a lovely wood elf shaped Dodo.
Except for the fact that Wanderers have been consistently mentioned in the fluff, in the rules, and just got Allegiance Abilities in the last GHB.
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Knight wrote: I'm not sure the exchange of points for command points is worth it. Perhaps, if I end up having 50 points to spare. Alternatively, if I'd want to build an all - in army that wants to win the game on first turn.
There's some armies where I could see it being a huge thing--Maggotkin and their Corruption Points allowing for Daemons as an example. You could come in under the points value and reinforce yourself with some new friends that way.
Interesting, I'm guessing this will replace the triumph roll and it's a pretty good replacement at that.
I fully agree. Do reinforcements points count towards this? If so, this may actually give an incentive to keep points in reserve for summoning.
On a side note, this is further evidence that we should wait to see the full picture before making a judgment on the rules changes. When Command Points were discussed last week, a lot of people were complaining about them being tied to battalions. This shows that there are going to be more ways to gain CP. So could we please stop judging the new edition based off of incomplete information?
EnTyme wrote: I fully agree. Do reinforcements points count towards this? If so, this may actually give an incentive to keep points in reserve for summoning.
Did the Slaanesh update get talked about somewhere in here? Because speaking of summoning:
Summoning
That’s not all – Slaanesh is receiving some powerful new summoning mechanics in the new edition. Using the new Depravity Points system, you’ll be able to bring anything from Daemonettes to a Keeper of Secrets onto the tabletop WITHOUT spending reinforcement points. Generating Depravity Points is very thematic– you’ll score one for every wound your Heroes inflict on a foe without killing them, or every non-fatal wound they receive in return – representing how the servants of the Dark Prince draw power from suffering and cruelty. They’re not the only faction to be receiving summoning changes, either…
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