It's not every day that we get an image of a Chaos God, imprisoned or otherwise.
I think GW is really starting to hype up the return of Slaanesh (or at least it's forces) in tandem with the new edition. Nagash is about to get his teeth kicked in by a god that REALLY hungers for souls.
Also, I like the rules so far. I see a lot of armies that have 20, 40, or 60 points leftover in their lists. Getting an extra command point is pretty nice. Once you hit 80 or 100 points, you can usually fill that with an ally or other unit, so I see people preferring that over a command point.
The Look Out Sir! rule is elegant, but also introduces some shenanigans. Imagine...
I put out my Eidolon of the Storm in front of my army. It's the closest Deepkin unit to you, so Forgotten Nightmares says you have to shoot at it. I cast Mystic Shield on the Eidolon and have a unit of Thralls behind it within 3".
That means my 12 wound Eidolon with a 2+ save now benefits from Look Out Sir. You have to shoot at it, since I'll make it the closest model to your shooting units, and you get a -1 to hit in doing so.
Granted, you can probably magic it to death, but still!
My favorite thing about the new LoS rules is regular Moratahi becoming a god with -3 to hit in shooting as long as you take Khailebron. -1 near other units, -1 for Khailebron, and -1 for Morathi. Also for the fun of it, Any hero on the shrine isn't a monster and becomes a 13 wound beast with -2 to shooting near units under Khailebron as well. Daughters heroes got a lot more worth it.
I super dig that cosmic horror look for slaanesh, how you can make out out a shape but it is distorted, the souls dotting its body also makes him/her looks absolutely vast in size like stars in the sky.
mmzero252 wrote: My favorite thing about the new LoS rules is regular Moratahi becoming a god with -3 to hit in shooting as long as you take Khailebron. -1 near other units, -1 for Khailebron, and -1 for Morathi. Also for the fun of it, Any hero on the shrine isn't a monster and becomes a 13 wound beast with -2 to shooting near units under Khailebron as well. Daughters heroes got a lot more worth it.
Only in humanoid form. In monster form she loses her own -1 and loses the look out sir. It's better for the foot characters, because honestly a good player isn't going to be shooting at Morathi like that anyways.
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drbored wrote: IThe Look Out Sir! rule is elegant, but also introduces some shenanigans. Imagine...
I put out my Eidolon of the Storm in front of my army. It's the closest Deepkin unit to you, so Forgotten Nightmares says you have to shoot at it. I cast Mystic Shield on the Eidolon and have a unit of Thralls behind it within 3".
That means my 12 wound Eidolon with a 2+ save now benefits from Look Out Sir. You have to shoot at it, since I'll make it the closest model to your shooting units, and you get a -1 to hit in doing so.
Granted, you can probably magic it to death, but still!
It's really just that one thing that's a potential problem, I'm not aware of anything else that's an issue. Even then, for the Eidolon to be the closes model to the whole enemy army means the rest of your must be pretty far back, likely meaning round 1 or top of 2 in which a shooting enemy wasn't going to achieve much anyways because most AoS shooting is close range. It's still a nasty tactic but I'm not sure it's game breaking.
Sort of off topic, but I've see in come up a few times recently. Why do people refer to AoS Slaanesh as a female? Is it a carry over from the Eldar mythos?
I always thought the Fantasy version was either a hermaphrodite or perfectly androgynous to the point where gendered pronouns stepped being applicable. Is it a she now in AoS?
His Master's Voice wrote: Sort of off topic, but I've see in come up a few times recently. Why do people refer to AoS Slaanesh as a female? Is it a carry over from the Eldar mythos?
I always thought the Fantasy version was either a hermaphrodite or perfectly androgynous to the point where gendered pronouns stepped being applicable. Is it a she now in AoS?
For me, it's a carryover from Eldar lore. I honestly don't think gender is applicable to any daemons or dark powers, but I use the traditional pronouns for convenience.
mmzero252 wrote: My favorite thing about the new LoS rules is regular Moratahi becoming a god with -3 to hit in shooting as long as you take Khailebron. -1 near other units, -1 for Khailebron, and -1 for Morathi. Also for the fun of it, Any hero on the shrine isn't a monster and becomes a 13 wound beast with -2 to shooting near units under Khailebron as well. Daughters heroes got a lot more worth it.
Only in humanoid form. In monster form she loses her own -1 and loses the look out sir. It's better for the foot characters, because honestly a good player isn't going to be shooting at Morathi like that anyways.
Oh of course it's only in human form. But even then, human form is still really scary. Lots of spells and double ranged ones is nothing to laugh at. But really it will be great for every hero in Daughter's of Khaine. None of them are monsters except Morathi in monster mode. She just becomes an unshootable threat in mini mode.
His Master's Voice wrote: Sort of off topic, but I've see in come up a few times recently. Why do people refer to AoS Slaanesh as a female? Is it a carry over from the Eldar mythos?
I always thought the Fantasy version was either a hermaphrodite or perfectly androgynous to the point where gendered pronouns stepped being applicable. Is it a she now in AoS?
Well, if this post they recently made is anything to go on, I believe Slaanesh is only referred to as male. They only use 'Dark Prince', and 'he' when referring to them, which admittedly, I thought was kind of weird, since previously, I thought they mixed it up, saying 'her', then 'him', so as to make it equal. But maybe I"m remembering that wrong?
Anybody else thinks we might get a Darkoath tribe battletome by the end of this year or next year? The Warhammer Adventures book had mention of Darkoath Tribesmen and we have a new model with the warqueen.
I would be so hyped for 'generic' chaos dudes. Like chaos but it's still a human based battletome. Just give us some marks for the units at least, better yet if coupled with a bonus for a unit that doesn't have any (buffs/heroes that buff units with the 'undivided' keyword anyone?).
Rydria wrote: I super dig that cosmic horror look for slaanesh, how you can make out out a shape but it is distorted, the souls dotting its body also makes him/her looks absolutely vast in size like stars in the sky.
Is there a blurb I missed that says those are souls? Since Slannesh is trapped between two realms (realities?) i like to think its only the nebula inside that is any kind of dorect manifestation of slannesh and that those actually are stars.
Slaanesh is a chaos diety that exists in countless dimensions and realities- to actually be able to trap even a portion of such a vast thing should be represented be something almost unimaginably huge.
Rydria wrote: I super dig that cosmic horror look for slaanesh, how you can make out out a shape but it is distorted, the souls dotting its body also makes him/her looks absolutely vast in size like stars in the sky.
Is there a blurb I missed that says those are souls? Since Slannesh is trapped between two realms (realities?) i like to think its only the nebula inside that is any kind of dorect manifestation of slannesh and that those actually are stars.
Slaanesh is a chaos diety that exists in countless dimensions and realities- to actually be able to trap even a portion of such a vast thing should be represented be something almost unimaginably huge.
I think the white shapes you can see here are meant to be Aelves or souls. It gives you an idea of the scale involved. Those obelisks are pretty huge.
Rydria wrote: I super dig that cosmic horror look for slaanesh, how you can make out out a shape but it is distorted, the souls dotting its body also makes him/her looks absolutely vast in size like stars in the sky.
Is there a blurb I missed that says those are souls? Since Slannesh is trapped between two realms (realities?) i like to think its only the nebula inside that is any kind of dorect manifestation of slannesh and that those actually are stars.
Slaanesh is a chaos diety that exists in countless dimensions and realities- to actually be able to trap even a portion of such a vast thing should be represented be something almost unimaginably huge.
Agree 100% ; I just think it's precisely both : stars, to show the cosmic size of this entity, AND souls, who are part of it drawn from it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I would be so hyped for 'generic' chaos dudes. Like chaos but it's still a human based battletome. Just give us some marks for the units at least, better yet if coupled with a bonus for a unit that doesn't have any (buffs/heroes that buff units with the 'undivided' keyword anyone?).
One of the fluff blurbs I've read recently mentioned Darkoath serving all Chaos gods (Undivided), so I think it'd be cool if Darkoath received bonuses for being ChaosMortals who did not have a mark.
It kinda makes sense. The Stormcast Eternal guy from Malign Portents had a quite pointless ability but since the new starter might include the SE artillery it seems that the Malign Portents heroes were foreshadowing for the coming releases. I´d be all over a Darkoath army.
tommse wrote: It kinda makes sense. The Stormcast Eternal guy from Malign Portents had a quite pointless ability but since the new starter might include the SE artillery it seems that the Malign Portents heroes were foreshadowing for the coming releases. I´d be all over a Darkoath army.
I'd also expect another Darkoath Warqueen model and later on another Fungoid Shaman. We know there's another Lord-Ordinator and Knight of Shrouds.
Worth mentioning as well that the Malign Portents "characters" are labeled as named characters on the boxes, they have generic profiles.
Banishment is one of the "Realm specific spells". It's only usable when playing in the Realm of Hysh("Light"). I'm liking that Unbinding is now 30" instead of 18". I'm liking that Arcane Bolt seems to be toned down(still would prefer that it deals normal wounds instead of Mortal but c'est la vie).
I'm okay with the Realm you're fighting in actually having an effect on the battle (depending on how it's implemented). A battle in Ulgu shouldn't be the same as a battle in Aqshy, etc.
Astmeister wrote: Because you are not always playing with a good friend and can decide together. In this case, you will probably roll a dice to determine the realm.
When I play outside tournaments it's always with people I know (my club), and in tournaments I bet the realms will be predetermined or use some other tournament-specific rules like giving you access to every spell anyway. I guess if you're playing with a random person outside a tournament, in a setting where there are no agreed-upon house rules, you would randomize, but I wouldn't know since it's not something I've encountered personally. Maybe just discuss it before the game and if you can't decide then roll off and let the winner choose? Or just play using all the spells.
I always thought that show took place in the Realm of Chaos...
The image he posted isn't of the Realm of Chaos. It's the "in-between", half between the Realm of Light and the Realm of Shadow. Lore is that Tyrion, Teclis, and Malerion have imprisoned Slaanesh between the Realm of Shadow and Realm of Light so that Slaanesh is trapped where Slaanesh's followers cannot easily get to it.
Interestingly, it's apparently done in a way that part of Slaanesh's influence has spread to Shadespire or at least the outskirts of the city. Malign Portents has a mention of a group of Kharadron Overlords going there and finding a 'mirror trapping an incredibly vain soul within it'.
Tzeentch Arcanites armies have always had loads of choice on which magical lores they can use and who they’re going to use to cast them, and they’ll love the new endless spells system. While it might be tempting to grab big, flashy, offensive spells, we’d recommend the Chronomantic Cogs – a nifty way to help make a wizard more survivable and better at casting, but which can also be used to increase your army’s (and the enemy’s) charge ranges.
If I understand correctly, every wizard will get access to :
- 2 basic spells (+ maybe 1-2 Warscrolls spell)
- 7 x 7 Realms lore spells
- 8+ "Endless magic" / stay in games / represented by models Mega spells ?
Yeah. Magic's about to get nuts. I'm not entirely thrilled by the number of spells being added, since every time GW has added a lot of abilities like this, 90% of them go by the wayside for the 1 or 2 of each lore that are really amazing.
Then you also have the problem of new players having to memorize all the different spells for every realm depending on where they're playing... and if I really want to play on Ulgu because of a spell I like but my opponent really likes a spell from Hysh, then how does that work when we want to play a matched play game?
drbored wrote: ... and if I really want to play on Ulgu because of a spell I like but my opponent really likes a spell from Hysh, then how does that work when we want to play a matched play game?
The same way we've always been told to settle such disagreements: roll off for it.
Mr Morden wrote: Spells from specific Realms, regions and areas have been in the game from the beginning.
Could be quite fun to have themed tables for each Realm at an event?
Yup. Casual/pick up games are likely to do what they do now; not play in any realm at all.
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drbored wrote: Yeah. Magic's about to get nuts. I'm not entirely thrilled by the number of spells being added, since every time GW has added a lot of abilities like this, 90% of them go by the wayside for the 1 or 2 of each lore that are really amazing.
Then you also have the problem of new players having to memorize all the different spells for every realm depending on where they're playing... and if I really want to play on Ulgu because of a spell I like but my opponent really likes a spell from Hysh, then how does that work when we want to play a matched play game?
I would share the concern over magic but there's two big things; the default spells got nerfed (especially mystic shield) and there will be a 30" dispel range. Those are both notable nerfs to the outgoing potency of spellcasters.
Mr Morden wrote: Spells from specific Realms, regions and areas have been in the game from the beginning.
Could be quite fun to have themed tables for each Realm at an event?
Yup. Casual/pick up games are likely to do what they do now; not play in any realm at all.
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drbored wrote: Yeah. Magic's about to get nuts. I'm not entirely thrilled by the number of spells being added, since every time GW has added a lot of abilities like this, 90% of them go by the wayside for the 1 or 2 of each lore that are really amazing.
Then you also have the problem of new players having to memorize all the different spells for every realm depending on where they're playing... and if I really want to play on Ulgu because of a spell I like but my opponent really likes a spell from Hysh, then how does that work when we want to play a matched play game?
I would share the concern over magic but there's two big things; the default spells got nerfed (especially mystic shield) and there will be a 30" dispel range. Those are both notable nerfs to the outgoing potency of spellcasters.
Says you. I intend to just drown my opponents in magic. It helps when I have Battleline units that are wizards.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Well if Tzeentch were able to be shut down magic wise that would be a problem since they are THE magic army, if they cant cast then no one is.
One could argue that Tzeentch should be on par with Eldritch Council(Teclis' Aelf wizard crew that helped imprison Slaanesh apparently), whenever they see a full release.
Despite my earlier misgivings, I'm mostly happy with the way the magic system seems to be shaping up. I would have rather seen Arcane Bolt get massaged a bit more than just locking its damage/casting values into place but what can ya do.
Hi guys, is there any rumors about upcoming AoS army releases? I know that the ghost army is coming next but what will follow? I am personally waiting to get back into AoS and this will only happen if there is finally an "Empire" like or "Ogers" battletome
Slaanesh is also mentioned to be getting a release from another source, citing october as the release date. On French forums they mentioned november. So Autumn for sure.
It's the same that correctly gave me the Nurgle information before the release, which I posted on here.
So is it really Moonclan or is it Fungoid Cave Grots in the style of the Malign Portents shaman?
No idea.
Moonclan before the end of the year, November/December time for Slanneesh.
I'm taking this with extra , but if it's true, boy oh boy, gotta decide if I'm throwing more sweet money at DoK and Idoneth or just resist until we get more Slaanesh goodness!
Also, it'd be amazing if it really was December, so we'd get another Chaos Christmas Carol, this time Slaanesh themed. That would be fuuuun
Voss wrote: Sounds pretty sparse for a new edition year, but that isn't unusual.
How so? We've already had 4 Battle tomes and a supplement since the start of the year. So that's a book a month essentially, all with model releases. We've got Nighthaunts right after/during the new edition, the magic supplement around the same time and there's strong rumours for at least two more tomes before the year is done. Doesn't seem that sparse all things considered.
Well the thing is that according to them the last few tomes were written in mind with 2.0, and that 2.0 isn't a massive change in ruleset compared to say.. WHFB 7E and 8E, and 40k 7E and 8E
As a result there's no need to start printing a few books rapidly to try and catch the edition and get some caught up. Though I do hope we'll see some new destruction books before years end.
Yeah if we get moonclan and Slaanesh, by the end of the year we will have seven and a half (stormcast) battletomes compared to 2 new and 2 rehashed battletomes last year. That would be pretty amazing.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Well the thing is that according to them the last few tomes were written in mind with 2.0, and that 2.0 isn't a massive change in ruleset compared to say.. WHFB 7E and 8E, and 40k 7E and 8E
As a result there's no need to start printing a few books rapidly to try and catch the edition and get some caught up. Though I do hope we'll see some new destruction books before years end.
Hell, they don't even necessarily need to print books for some stuff. Just do the Warscroll Cards set with the updated/new units if it's an existing army and bam!
Talking of Heroes, the new edition features some powerful, realm-specific artefacts that are well worth a look for your Slaughter Queens (or any other Hero you fancy!). We’ve picked a couple from Ulgu you might want to try – the horde-obliterating Betrayer’s Crown and the Hero-annihilating Sword of Judgement:
Voss wrote: Sounds pretty sparse for a new edition year, but that isn't unusual.
How so? We've already had 4 Battle tomes and a supplement since the start of the year. So that's a book a month essentially, all with model releases. We've got Nighthaunts right after/during the new edition, the magic supplement around the same time and there's strong rumours for at least two more tomes before the year is done. Doesn't seem that sparse all things considered.
Sparse in the sense of two army releases in 6 months. The new edition is June, and the big hat rumor is talking about gobbos and then slaanesh in novemberish.
It isn't anything strange, I was just hoping to see something for the normal humans/dwarves that live in these big cities. Or something to flesh out the landscapes the various armies are fighting over. They've mentioned more details on the Realms, was hoping for something release related to make that seem real.
Voss wrote: Sounds pretty sparse for a new edition year, but that isn't unusual.
How so? We've already had 4 Battle tomes and a supplement since the start of the year. So that's a book a month essentially, all with model releases. We've got Nighthaunts right after/during the new edition, the magic supplement around the same time and there's strong rumours for at least two more tomes before the year is done. Doesn't seem that sparse all things considered.
Sparse in the sense of two army releases in 6 months. The new edition is June, and the big hat rumor is talking about gobbos and then slaanesh in novemberish.
It isn't anything strange, I was just hoping to see something for the normal humans/dwarves that live in these big cities. Or something to flesh out the landscapes the various armies are fighting over. They've mentioned more details on the Realms, was hoping for something release related to make that seem real.
AoS 2.0 launch already has 2 new armies.
Nighthaunt overhaul and another Stormcast chamber.
If Grots and Slaanesh is true, that's 7 AoS armies in 2018.
Oh yeah I do as well. The idea of expanding out the realms further in all factors makes for interesting terrain ideas and decent campaigns (even skirmish!) if they work it well enough. If they do it properly it could also count towards helping with the general issues terrain has been for 40k and previous AoS, where terrain hasn't been a decent focus.
Voss wrote: Sounds pretty sparse for a new edition year, but that isn't unusual.
How so? We've already had 4 Battle tomes and a supplement since the start of the year. So that's a book a month essentially, all with model releases. We've got Nighthaunts right after/during the new edition, the magic supplement around the same time and there's strong rumours for at least two more tomes before the year is done. Doesn't seem that sparse all things considered.
Sparse in the sense of two army releases in 6 months. The new edition is June, and the big hat rumor is talking about gobbos and then slaanesh in novemberish.
It isn't anything strange, I was just hoping to see something for the normal humans/dwarves that live in these big cities. Or something to flesh out the landscapes the various armies are fighting over. They've mentioned more details on the Realms, was hoping for something release related to make that seem real.
AoS 2.0 launch already has 2 new armies.
Nighthaunt overhaul and another Stormcast chamber.
If Grots and Slaanesh is true, that's 7 AoS armies in 2018.
There are also rumors of a Darkoath faction, so that would make 8. I'm actually betting AoS Slaanesh will be early 2019, though. Tzeentch and Nurgle both got their releases in Q1. The Slaanesh stuff in 2018 will probably be Emperor's Children rather than Hosts of Slaanesh.
Voss wrote: Sounds pretty sparse for a new edition year, but that isn't unusual.
How so? We've already had 4 Battle tomes and a supplement since the start of the year. So that's a book a month essentially, all with model releases. We've got Nighthaunts right after/during the new edition, the magic supplement around the same time and there's strong rumours for at least two more tomes before the year is done. Doesn't seem that sparse all things considered.
Sparse in the sense of two army releases in 6 months. The new edition is June, and the big hat rumor is talking about gobbos and then slaanesh in novemberish.
It isn't anything strange, I was just hoping to see something for the normal humans/dwarves that live in these big cities. Or something to flesh out the landscapes the various armies are fighting over. They've mentioned more details on the Realms, was hoping for something release related to make that seem real.
AoS 2.0 launch already has 2 new armies.
Nighthaunt overhaul and another Stormcast chamber.
If Grots and Slaanesh is true, that's 7 AoS armies in 2018.
There are also rumors of a Darkoath faction, so that would make 8. I'm actually betting AoS Slaanesh will be early 2019, though. Tzeentch and Nurgle both got their releases in Q1. The Slaanesh stuff in 2018 will probably be Emperor's Children rather than Hosts of Slaanesh.
*edited because my brain has autotype enabled*
Speaking of the possible darkoath faction, could somebody please shed a bit more light on this (at this point I'm not sure if the whole thing's just wishlisting or not)? God I'm hoping it's true..
It's more speculation based on the pattern following the release of the Harbringers. We got the Knight of Shrouds, Nighthaunts are coming. We got the Lord Ordinator, the new Stormcast chamber has been released. We got the Grot shaman, there's very strong noise for Moonclan later in the year. Following the pattern, with the release of the Warqueen, Darkoath is the next logical choice.
The new AoS round of releases will probably last as long as the deepkin stuff. If not longer, cause it's two new armies (even if one is like a sub army). This will probably run into july to some degree. August is titanicus. If there is Moonclan due out, and the latest rumor engine looks like a weapon they would use...i'd figure fall. I wouldn't expect Slaanesh until january next year. And don't forget the 3 blood bowl and 2 necromunda teams still to be released before the year ends. But then again who knows what else they have up their sleeves. There is still the AoS open day, and I figure the new Shadespire set will also release before the year ends.
Thargrim wrote: The new AoS round of releases will probably last as long as the deepkin stuff. If not longer, cause it's two new armies (even if one is like a sub army). This will probably run into july to some degree. August is titanicus. If there is Moonclan due out, and the latest rumor engine looks like a weapon they would use...i'd figure fall. I wouldn't expect Slaanesh until january next year. And don't forget the 3 blood bowl and 2 necromunda teams still to be released before the year ends. But then again who knows what else they have up their sleeves. There is still the AoS open day, and I figure the new Shadespire set will also release before the year ends.
The 40k Ork release is also rumoured to be bigger than just the Codex.
And the Space Wolves will probably also have models alongside the Codex. I expect a Primaris Lieutenant at least, returned Russ at best.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: It's more speculation based on the pattern following the release of the Harbringers. We got the Knight of Shrouds, Nighthaunts are coming. We got the Lord Ordinator, the new Stormcast chamber has been released. We got the Grot shaman, there's very strong noise for Moonclan later in the year. Following the pattern, with the release of the Warqueen, Darkoath is the next logical choice.
Also, they’re listed as the main baddy in the AoS “Warhammer Adventures” section, NOT generic ‘barbarians’ or even ‘marauders’; while it’s possible that it’s simply a case of “the bad guys need a name”, I do hope not.
Thargrim wrote: The new AoS round of releases will probably last as long as the deepkin stuff. If not longer, cause it's two new armies (even if one is like a sub army). This will probably run into july to some degree. August is titanicus. If there is Moonclan due out, and the latest rumor engine looks like a weapon they would use...i'd figure fall. I wouldn't expect Slaanesh until january next year. And don't forget the 3 blood bowl and 2 necromunda teams still to be released before the year ends. But then again who knows what else they have up their sleeves. There is still the AoS open day, and I figure the new Shadespire set will also release before the year ends.
I wouldn't even be surprised if slaanesh comes next summer, during an AoS campaign
Free summoning. Kinda figured this would happen after they talked about the slaanesh summoning.
I really dread this change. This could be game-breaking.
The summoning we already got with Nurgle and LoN are not that difficult to get. And the armies are really not balanced around free summoning.
I hope this goes hand in hand with a major points increase for summoning armies.
Free summoning. Kinda figured this would happen after they talked about the slaanesh summoning.
I really dread this change. This could be game-breaking.
The summoning we already got with Nurgle and LoN are not that difficult to get. And the armies are really not balanced around free summoning.
I hope this goes hand in hand with a major points increase for summoning armies.
Yeah, they've done a great job with aos so far but free new units makes me nervous. And I play seraphon and LoN and will probably play night haunt.
Lemondish wrote: Were people actually using summoning with reserve points?
Some lists were built around it, but they were mostly Tzeentch.
I'm guessing that's the mechanic that causes so much complaining about Tzeentch in general? I guess then the negativity towards free summoning means people expect to see that mechanic more than they already do.
Lemondish wrote: Were people actually using summoning with reserve points?
Not much.
But free units was stupid before GHB2016 and I know we didn't use it.
And now you can't even try to unbind the summoning spells, because they no longer are spells.
Sure, they're not spells--but when you have caveats like causing a wound but not killing the unit or suffering a wound and not dying to generate one point(which might get you 10 Daemonettes)...do we really think it's going to be super common to see huge masses of summoned units?
Lemondish wrote: Were people actually using summoning with reserve points?
Some lists were built around it, but they were mostly Tzeentch.
I'm guessing that's the mechanic that causes so much complaining about Tzeentch in general? I guess then the negativity towards free summoning means people expect to see that mechanic more than they already do.
Tzeentch gets complained about in general because it's a very strong book with some ridiculously nice units(Skyfires) that are relatively cheap.
The units aren't free free, though. You have to earn the points to summon them, which at the very least, means your opponent can affect your ability to do so, greatly changing the way you fight against different armies. For instance, the Maggotkin get contagion pts from, I think, having units in either deployment zone, and having gnarlmaws with no enemies nearby - all things that your opponent will no longer let happen.
Based on a quick google:
Expected amount of Contagion Points if both sides have models in both territories on Turn 2 and there is 1 Gnarlmaw on the Board (same numbers based on 2 Gnarlmaws are in brackets).
Turn 1: 5-7 (6-10)
Turn 2: 13-17 (18-22)
Turn 3: 23-27 (30-34)
Turn 4: 33-37 (42-46)
Turn 5: 43-47 (54-58)
(from this review of the battletome)
Not sure what the max summoning capability is though, since I don't know how much summoning costs.
You gain 3 Contagion Points at the start of each of your hero phases if you have any friendly Nurgle models in your own territory and 3 additional contagion points if there are any friendly Nurgle models in the enemy player's territory. You get 1 additional CP if there are no enemy models in the same territory as those models. D3 additional points for each Feculent Gnarlmaw that has no enemy models within 3" of it.
If you have 7 or more CPs at the end of your movement phase, you get to summon something from a list but you have to pay Contagion Points for it and the summoned unit must be set up wholly within 12" of a Feculent Gnarlmaw or friendly Nurgle hero and more than 9" away from any enemy models. If you bring in a Feculent Gnarlmaw, it has to also be set up more than 1" from any terrain features. You subtract the cost from your stash of Contagion Points and move along.
7 CPs gets you 5 Plaguebearers, 1 Nurgling base, or a Feculent Gnarlmaw. 14 gets you a Poxbringer, Sloppity Bilepiper, Spoilpox Scrivener, 10 Plaguebearers, 1 Beast of Nurgle, or 3 Nurgling bases. 21 CPs gets you 20 Plaguebearers, 3 Plague Drones, or Horticulous Slimux. 28 gets you a Great Unclean One.
Earning points actually could make for pretty compelling mini-games, and WarCom isn't wrong that it's a distinctly AOS-y 'war of celestial realms' sort of mechanic:
Summoning is one of the most thematic parts of Warhammer Age of Sigmar – whether it’s packs of Daemons ripping their way into reality, the dead rising from their graves or Seraphon manifesting in glittering beams of celestial starlight.
I mean, I hate it from a balance standpoint and don't believe for a second that some factions won't have much easier mini-games and others won't have much harder ones, but I feel like it fits the dimensional conflict thing fairly well. And/or also enforces that the game isn't intended to be competitive
So if you play nurgle, you will probably have enough points to summon a guo by turn 3. That's a pretty significant boost to an army. I am very curious how they are going to try to balance this in matched play.
As if there wasn’t enough good news for the Legions of Nagash – we’ve got some exciting announcements about the new Nighthaunt units. While the Nighthaunt will be getting fully realised as a faction in their own right, many of their units will also be accessible for Legions of Nagash armies – so if you’ve been eyeing up the new models, now you’ve got an excuse to pick them up…
For LoN you need to have:
A) a unit that has died, been completely wiped out
B) your general within 9" of a gravesite
C) no enemies within 1"of the gravesite
D) spend a command point
You can do it once a turn and honestly, if you have unit that have died and you want to resurrect that probably wasn't a 40 man unit of grave guard.
Moreover, you do this in your hero phase. Meaning if the opponent is on a gravesite you can't kill them off it to use the ability. You can't even move over there. You need to move to the site and plan ahead one turn in advance and just hope your opponent can't get onto the gravesite in their turn.
You then get a chance to kill whatever your opponent definitely put there with magic but if you can't then no summoning for you.
Yeah the LoN summoning is...limited. Once per battle you'll summon back some skeletons or Black Knights or grave guard but that's about it. Which is about right, especially that your general can't then use their command ability.
Thargrim wrote: The new AoS round of releases will probably last as long as the deepkin stuff. If not longer, cause it's two new armies (even if one is like a sub army). This will probably run into july to some degree. August is titanicus. If there is Moonclan due out, and the latest rumor engine looks like a weapon they would use...i'd figure fall. I wouldn't expect Slaanesh until january next year. And don't forget the 3 blood bowl and 2 necromunda teams still to be released before the year ends. But then again who knows what else they have up their sleeves. There is still the AoS open day, and I figure the new Shadespire set will also release before the year ends.
The 40k Ork release is also rumoured to be bigger than just the Codex.
And the Space Wolves will probably also have models alongside the Codex. I expect a Primaris Lieutenant at least, returned Russ at best.
That's great news for the Space Orks, they need some love.
Don't forget, that aside from the SW, there's still the knights, and the Genestealer cults (who will hopefully get at least a separate box of aberrations, at best a LIMO!!!). I'm guessing the Ynari and possibly sisters of silence will get armies as well, but no idea if they've been rolled into one of the other existing armies.
I hope that moonclan grots, and savage/forest greenskins will get books as well, as I feel like destruction has been pretty neglected so far in AoS.
With that, the new titan game, and Rogue trader game due out this year, plus more BB teams, Necromunda stuff, and shadespire, there's a lot that can fill up the release schedule.
Sqorgar wrote: The units aren't free free, though. You have to earn the points to summon them, which at the very least, means your opponent can affect your ability to do so, greatly changing the way you fight against different armies. For instance, the Maggotkin get contagion pts from, I think, having units in either deployment zone, and having gnarlmaws with no enemies nearby - all things that your opponent will no longer let happen.
Based on a quick google:
Expected amount of Contagion Points if both sides have models in both territories on Turn 2 and there is 1 Gnarlmaw on the Board (same numbers based on 2 Gnarlmaws are in brackets).
Not sure what the max summoning capability is though, since I don't know how much summoning costs.
On that chart a Maggotkin army can get up to 700 free points per game, or a GUO every 3 turns.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aren73 wrote: For LoN you need to have:
A) a unit that has died, been completely wiped out
B) your general within 9" of a gravesite
C) no enemies within 1"of the gravesite
D) spend a command point
You can do it once a turn and honestly, if you have unit that have died and you want to resurrect that probably wasn't a 40 man unit of grave guard.
Moreover, you do this in your hero phase. Meaning if the opponent is on a gravesite you can't kill them off it to use the ability. You can't even move over there. You need to move to the site and plan ahead one turn in advance and just hope your opponent can't get onto the gravesite in their turn.
You then get a chance to kill whatever your opponent definitely put there with magic but if you can't then no summoning for you.
Yeah the LoN summoning is...limited. Once per battle you'll summon back some skeletons or Black Knights or grave guard but that's about it. Which is about right, especially that your general can't then use their command ability.
Why would it be once per game and how do you know you can only do it once per turn? All we know so far is that the command ability costs command points, we don't know that each hero is only allowed to do one command ability per turn. You're also underselling the value of 'some skeletons' or 'some black knights'.
500pts of resurrections is EASILY possible in all but the quickest blowouts, but you could spam out 1000pts or more across a couple turns. Your opponent isn't realistically going to be able to block every gravesite and if they try to overextend and go for the one your general is on they could end up losing before the summons even come in. I would honestly be surprised if any unit of hexwraiths or blackknights ever fully die ever again.
In the nurgle case it is in each of their hero phases that they get points, so we are realistic talking an absolute maximum of two guos per game, with the second arriving when the game is pretty much finished. The opponent can also put units near the gnarlmaws to limit points accumulation. It is a potentially powerful ability but it is a million miles away from the craziness at the launch of aos.
Sqorgar wrote: The units aren't free free, though. You have to earn the points to summon them, which at the very least, means your opponent can affect your ability to do so, greatly changing the way you fight against different armies. For instance, the Maggotkin get contagion pts from, I think, having units in either deployment zone, and having gnarlmaws with no enemies nearby - all things that your opponent will no longer let happen.
Based on a quick google:
Expected amount of Contagion Points if both sides have models in both territories on Turn 2 and there is 1 Gnarlmaw on the Board (same numbers based on 2 Gnarlmaws are in brackets).
Not sure what the max summoning capability is though, since I don't know how much summoning costs.
On that chart a Maggotkin army can get up to 700 free points per game, or a GUO every 3 turns.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aren73 wrote: For LoN you need to have:
A) a unit that has died, been completely wiped out
B) your general within 9" of a gravesite
C) no enemies within 1"of the gravesite
D) spend a command point
You can do it once a turn and honestly, if you have unit that have died and you want to resurrect that probably wasn't a 40 man unit of grave guard.
Moreover, you do this in your hero phase. Meaning if the opponent is on a gravesite you can't kill them off it to use the ability. You can't even move over there. You need to move to the site and plan ahead one turn in advance and just hope your opponent can't get onto the gravesite in their turn.
You then get a chance to kill whatever your opponent definitely put there with magic but if you can't then no summoning for you.
Yeah the LoN summoning is...limited. Once per battle you'll summon back some skeletons or Black Knights or grave guard but that's about it. Which is about right, especially that your general can't then use their command ability.
Why would it be once per game and how do you know you can only do it once per turn? All we know so far is that the command ability costs command points, we don't know that each hero is only allowed to do one command ability per turn. You're also underselling the value of 'some skeletons' or 'some black knights'.
500pts of resurrections is EASILY possible in all but the quickest blowouts, but you could spam out 1000pts or more across a couple turns. Your opponent isn't realistically going to be able to block every gravesite and if they try to overextend and go for the one your general is on they could end up losing before the summons even come in. I would honestly be surprised if any unit of hexwraiths or blackknights ever fully die ever again.
Yeah...none of this is realistic. Sorry to say but your hyperbole is starting to get annoying, bub.
Using your same logic - all we know for certain is that you can summon one fully dead unit under those very limited conditions for 1CP. Since the only thing we know for certain on CP gain values is that you gain 1CP per turn, then it's clear this is just all wild speciation. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but your alarmist behaviour is embarrassing.
Sure, it's a powerful tool. You'll need to find a way to counter it. The important thing to remember is not to go to pieces over it.
All we can make right now are assumptions, but I'm hesitant to believe this will be a good change to the game. Summoning has been done in different ways in 40k and WHFB and many of them were so busted that they needed individual tournaments to make extra rulings on how many points worth of models you could bring in.
That said, like with all of the rules that we've seen so far, we haven't seen the full picture. There could be more limitations that we don't know about, and honestly I wish GW would have illuminated us on some of those limitations to prevent some of this hyperbole and sky-is-falling mentality.
For all we know there could be a 300 point limit on how much you can summon in a game. There could be a limit on how many times you can summon at all through a game (maybe only one per turn or less. Maybe only 2 or 3 per game). There could be further balances such as points for units in an army with summoning going up across the board. Chaos and Undead armies, for example, could see an overall price hike when it comes to things you can summon to A. encourage summoning but B. balance how much you actually get. GW could also be planning on balancing summoning against the persistent spells that every army will have access to.
And, ultimately, if the summoning system creates situations that are not fun for players and push people away from a game that they are trying VERY hard to get more people into, then they're going to change it. They'll FAQ the new core rules due to player feedback after play-testing. The last thing they want is for one rule to be the death knell for the brand new edition and see sales plummet. Let's be real, summoning as it is currently isn't helping GW sell models, but if you can summon extra units to a field, that means people that already have full 2000 point armies will be encouraged to buy more models in case they get to summon them through a game. That's the scheme. If it backfires, they'll change it.
And yet, I STILL can't help but be worried. The least fun moments in a game are when a Nurgle player makes a ton of Disgustingly Resilient saves, or when a Necron player makes a ton of Reanimation Protocol rolls when you fail to knock out the last model in a unit. It's also very un-fun to feel like someone has a distinct and clear advantage over you just because they're playing x or y army and get 'free' units when you don't. Having just bought into Idoneth Deepkin that likely will have no form of summoning, I'm apprehensive about fighting in my local meta that's made up of a LOT of armies that WILL have summoning. Seraphon, Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, and all flavors of undead are very common armies, and to be playing an army that doesn't get a free 200-400 point model that I can stick nearly anywhere on the table on turn 3 or 4 is... worrisome. It doesn't sound fun. It sounds like a huge drag, to be completely honest.
But, we'll see how it plays out. I'm excited to hear about the persistent spells and I hope that they help bring the balance and allow me to knock on those 'free' units when they appear without worry.
"Units won’t be the only thing you can summon in the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar – stay tuned for more exciting news on the way for EVERY army later in the week…"
I guess this bit at the end of the Warhammer Community post is referring to the new endless and predatory spells.
I'm hoping that if someone summons units, they won't have enough spells/command points to cast these, but their opponents will.
In other words, your opponent summons some skellies back, then you summon a giant chompy mouth that mortal wounds them for breakfast.
Turn one you're summoning nothing, probably no unit of yours has been wiped out and you're not on a gravesite.
Turn 2 you needed your opponent to paste one of your units turn 1/their turn 2 which is not impossible but only some armies have that firepower/threat range. Now you can summon if in turn one you made sure your GENERAL was on a gravesite. Let's be honest, you didn't, you didn't know if what your opponent kills on turn 2 you necessarily want back, you probably didn't know they definitely would kill a whole unit, they could after all leave it with one man remaining.
Turns 3-5 are most probable for summoning. You have units that are dead and you can manouver. Except, do you know how easy it is for a competent player to cock-block our summoning?
You need to move your general to the gravesite the turn prior and all they need to do is plonk a unit on it and you get nothing. One gryph-hound would stop the whole thing. They get a whole turn to move there and it's obvious what you're doing, they know what's happening. Yeah.
So, your general is on a gravesite, the opponent can't really get there in time, you're good right? HAHA NO YOU'RE FLIPPING NOT! All they need to do is kill your general. Shooting armies will not struggle with that, neither will magic armies. Spells that move models around would be hilarious at this point. If they make it their plan to kill your general turn 1 they'll probably manage.
Phew, you made it! Some of your units are dead, you're on a gravesite, the opponent can't make it there, your general is alive...so what do? You can spend a command point and summon a unit (only once because only one model in your army can do this and that's your general). Now your unit must fit in a 9" bubble around the gravesite. So no 60 man skeleton hordes. You'll probably summon a medium unit of grave guard, some black knights, some skeletons, some dire wolves or spirit hosts. They're all fine units except all but two are quite slow and without a sizeable amount of support they don't hit THAT hard. You might want to just use them for objective grabbing, that's what I'd do anyway.
To summarise - you'd only use it once per game because first, you can only use it once per turn due to only your general having access to it and I'm certain GW won't let you spam the same command ability from the same dude multiple times a turn. Second, it's very restrictive and very easy to counter...you're actually pretty lucky if your opponent let's you summon and if they do they won't let you do it twice.
You need to be winning the game by a landslide if you're allowed to summon multiple times. By which point who cares? You're winning anyway, chances are you don't have enough units dead to summon multiple times anyway.
I actually think the summoning for LoN is perhaps too restrictive, it's not really a nice bonus, it's something you have to force to happen. Would be a lot better if you could summon after you move your general and not before.
As for idoneth - you have way too many fast units to let someone summon. You can either kill the general or cock-block the site he sits on, neither of which should be a problem. Multiple small units of eel riders would easily be able to park on gravesite and an Akhelian King kitted for hero slaying could remove their general. You're fine.
I really hope there is a LOT that they are not yet telling us about summoning - previous discussion about gravesites aside, the amphorae ability appears usable first turn for a free unit without any trouble. That's discouraging, I really enjoy AoS but am quickly losing my previous enthusiasm for the new edition. I know that we need to "wait and see", of course, summoning may end up being eminently balanced and a useful mechanic. All that they have shown so far makes me think it will either mean "free units for some armies" which is no fun, or "free units for all armies" which is a pretty cynical cash grab/bloat on army lists. Either way it's not a particularly adept way to build excitement for the release, which one presumes is the point of these articles.
eohall wrote: I really hope there is a LOT that they are not yet telling us about summoning - previous discussion about gravesites aside, the amphorae ability appears usable first turn for a free unit without any trouble.
Read the rules in-depth a bit. It's once per game for the summoning aspect of the Soul Amphorae in Hero phase and the unit that gets placed cannot move during Movement.
It goes Hero Phase->Movement Phase->Shooting Phase->Charge->Combat->Battleshock And Alarielle already has that ability. It's just tied to a D6 roll on an ability she has rather than being "once per game". The Amphorae as it stands now is a D6 where the 1-3 is the "heal 30 models", 4 is 2D6 Dryads, 5 is D6 Tree-Revenants, and 6 is a Treelord.
Branchwraiths are going to be able to summon models via "a tweaked version of her spell, Roused to Wrath". I would be surprised if it's not going to be something similar to the Isharann Rituals in Deepkin where you get +1 to the roll for being within a certain distance of a terrain feature, +1 for each keyword "Branchwraith" nearby, etc.
That's discouraging, I really enjoy AoS but am quickly losing my previous enthusiasm for the new edition. I know that we need to "wait and see", of course, summoning may end up being eminently balanced and a useful mechanic. All that they have shown so far makes me think it will either mean "free units for some armies" which is no fun, or "free units for all armies" which is a pretty cynical cash grab/bloat on army lists. Either way it's not a particularly adept way to build excitement for the release, which one presumes is the point of these articles.
I don't know how the other armies are going to get access to some of this stuff, but I could see other armies being able to use Command Points to reinforce casualties or duplicate lost units somehow.
eohall wrote: All that they have shown so far makes me think it will either mean "free units for some armies" which is no fun, or "free units for all armies" which is a pretty cynical cash grab/bloat on army lists.
It seems like everybody's getting some summoning? Which is I guess a welcome balance to how summoning has typically been in Warhams (only Undead, Daemons, Sylvaneth in AOS). But I'm with you on feeling like summoning is just about encouraging people to buy more models, and essentially requiring it if you want to be competitive. Remember summoning in the frontier days of AOS Year 1? Not seeing that level of imba approaching ... but it gives me the same feels of pay-to-win.
Either way it's not a particularly adept way to build excitement for the release, which one presumes is the point of these articles.
Same boat. Feeling driven further and further away at this point
Doesn't look like Daughters of Khaine will be. Their battletome is up to date to the 2nd edition and I don't think there's any summoning in it (most command traits are about giving extra attack actions to nearby units).
It seems like summoning armies will be able to summon something each game, but how many somethings they can summon will greatly depend on how well they play (or how well their opponent stops them). Also, the summoning tables appear to be kept separately from the units, and like the points tables, could be updated in future General's Handbooks if it becomes a problem.
Doesn't look like Daughters of Khaine will be. Their battletome is up to date to the 2nd edition and I don't think there's any summoning in it (most command traits are about giving extra attack actions to nearby units).
It seems like summoning armies will be able to summon something each game, but how many somethings they can summon will greatly depend on how well they play (or how well their opponent stops them). Also, the summoning tables appear to be kept separately from the units, and like the points tables, could be updated in future General's Handbooks if it becomes a problem.
I'm wondering if Daughters of Khaine and Idoneth are going to get something added later on.
I really think that the Eidolon for the Idoneth, for example, could have been part of the Isharann Rituals but required a 15+ to summon(meaning it would have required a top notch roll and a Gloomtide Shipwreck and at least two Priests).
Oh thank God! Turning opponents/failed Chaos Heroes into Spawn or w/e no longer costs reinforcement points. I think that’s the part of reinforcement points that bothered me the most. The unit affected didn’t die; it just mutated. And you had to pay a penalty cost for the mutation.
I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,
Aren73 wrote: ERJAK - OK then let's walk through it.
I agree with your general point that the sky is certainly not falling because of the new summoning mechanics, but a few things are still not quite right with your argument
Aren73 wrote: So, your general is on a gravesite, the opponent can't really get there in time, you're good right? HAHA NO YOU'RE FLIPPING NOT! All they need to do is kill your general. Shooting armies will not struggle with that, neither will magic armies. Spells that move models around would be hilarious at this point. If they make it their plan to kill your general turn 1 they'll probably manage.
No, they probably won't. Unbinding has become a lot more easy and thanks to Look out Sir! combined with some of the defensive artifacts from Legion of Sacrament your general will be very resistant to shooting. It might be doable under very specific circumstances with certain armies and setups, but in most cases this is not going to happen. Any human sized general will be out of sight as well for most things, if the player has any sense.
Aren73 wrote: Phew, you made it! Some of your units are dead, you're on a gravesite, the opponent can't make it there, your general is alive...so what do? You can spend a command point and summon a unit (only once because only one model in your army can do this and that's your general). Now your unit must fit in a 9" bubble around the gravesite. So no 60 man skeleton hordes. You'll probably summon a medium unit of grave guard, some black knights, some skeletons, some dire wolves or spirit hosts. They're all fine units except all but two are quite slow and without a sizeable amount of support they don't hit THAT hard. You might want to just use them for objective grabbing, that's what I'd do anyway.
Command Abilities can be used multiple times in the same turn. It's explicitly mentioned in the Legions of Nagash preview.
Also, Skeletons come in units of 40 max.
Does this mean that LoN is going to spiral out of control? I don't think so. As you mentioned, there are still plenty of conditions attached to bringing units back.
Chikout wrote: I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,
Well, how is that the wrong way? It's taking summoning from a mostly ignored mechanic and solving the major issue with it - having to spend points on it that would be better off spent on units that start on the board.
Chikout wrote: I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,
Well, how is that the wrong way? It's taking summoning from a mostly ignored mechanic and solving the major issue with it - having to spend points on it that would be better off spent on units that start on the board.
Emphasis mine. Chikouts addressing the way it is being handed to us, not the content itself. He's saying that GW is saying its now 'free' when it is not. There will still be a resource used to perform the summoning.
GW is giving people the assumption this isn't true. I believe that is the difference he was trying to convey.
Chikout wrote: I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,
Well, how is that the wrong way? It's taking summoning from a mostly ignored mechanic and solving the major issue with it - having to spend points on it that would be better off spent on units that start on the board.
Emphasis mine. Chikouts addressing the way it is being handed to us, not the content itself. He's saying that GW is saying its now 'free' when it is not. There will still be a resource used to perform the summoning.
GW is giving people the assumption this isn't true. I believe that is the difference he was trying to convey.
I mean, I get that this would be the case if one only read the article titles....alas, I guess I'm expecting too much. Oh well, I understand your concerns.
Though I am a staunch proponent for waiting until the whole picture crystalizes and we've had a chance to actually play with and against it.
The summoning ability I am most concerned about is pink horrors, and blue horrors, which have on-card summoning, but that ability can be dealt with in unit costing. On the other hand, tzeentch has a severe lack of command abilities and inspiring presence has been weakened, so the new command points are probably a net tzeentch nerf.
Assuming all direct 'summon this unit' spells are removed, most other on-card or on-battalion summoning is much more limited.
Galas wrote: To be honest , summoning a free treelord turn 1 just because you have Alarielle is a little bonkers.
I assume she will become more expensive based on that.
Summoning a single Treelord, turn 1, and not being able to summon anything else for the duration of the game isn't likely to be gamebreaking.
I'd be more concerned about people using it as a way to bring extra Kurnoth Hunters to be honest.
Would your opinion be the same if an opposing Kharadron player got to bring on a free frigate turn one? How about a free GUO turn 1? It's like having that many extra points in the list just for bringing her.
Galas wrote: To be honest , summoning a free treelord turn 1 just because you have Alarielle is a little bonkers.
I assume she will become more expensive based on that.
Summoning a single Treelord, turn 1, and not being able to summon anything else for the duration of the game isn't likely to be gamebreaking.
I'd be more concerned about people using it as a way to bring extra Kurnoth Hunters to be honest.
Would your opinion be the same if an opposing Kharadron player got to bring on a free frigate turn one? How about a free GUO turn 1? It's like having that many extra points in the list just for bringing her.
For a once per game ability blown on the first turn, where the unit can't move or do anything associated with what the unit is designed for?
Yeah, my opinion would be about the same. If you could bring on a free Frigate that couldn't move or shoot--I'd say it's balanced. If you could bring on a free GUO that couldn't move or cast or do anything aside from stand there as a fire magnet, yes.
Davor wrote: I thought it was just move. So I am guessing shooting and assaulting will stay the same. Time will tell.
It is just Movement, but since there's caveats to the deployment(wholly within 9" of Alarielle and outside of 9" of any enemy units) and the Treelord mentioned has a 12" range...Shooting effectively won't happen, and Charges are going to need double 6s.
Chikout wrote: I think gw is hyping this slightly the wrong way. The emphasis is on ‘free’, but it is not limitless. There is some kind of gating on every summming we have seen so far, whether it is command points for nagash, depravity points for Slaanesh, or Alarielle’s once a battle rule. I will be interested to see how the others work and how the non summoning armies balance this,
Well, how is that the wrong way? It's taking summoning from a mostly ignored mechanic and solving the major issue with it - having to spend points on it that would be better off spent on units that start on the board.
Emphasis mine. Chikouts addressing the way it is being handed to us, not the content itself. He's saying that GW is saying its now 'free' when it is not. There will still be a resource used to perform the summoning.
GW is giving people the assumption this isn't true. I believe that is the difference he was trying to convey.
I mean, I get that this would be the case if one only read the article titles....alas, I guess I'm expecting too much. Oh well, I understand your concerns.
Though I am a staunch proponent for waiting until the whole picture crystalizes and we've had a chance to actually play with and against it.
Neronoxx had it pretty much right. In the promotion for these changes GW is throwing around the word 'free' like candy, especially in that recent poster from Facebook. It is a little misleading, and may have result in some players overreacting a little.
As GW themselves have stated, most summoning abilities depend on in game activities. These abilities can be counteracted by the opposing player to an extent.
The only summoning ability we have seen so far that is pretty much unprevenatble is Alarielle's one.
Interestingly these abilities seem to be somewhat balanced against each other. If we assume that a nurgle player is playing against someone trying to prevent them accumulating to many contagion points, about 300 points of summoning across the game is likely. This is a bit more points wise than Sylvaneth but less reliable.
Death have the potential to get more but they can be zoned out and the general becomes the linchpin of the army.
I think everyone is worried about what non summoning, non magic armies will get to counteract this. I think that we are all waiting for the other shoe to drop.
People are also worried about this being a pay to win or a sales based mechanic but I really don't see it that way.
With the increased emphasis on battalions, heroes and exchanging points for command abilities we will probably see fewer models on the table than before. Summoning balances this.
For example, I don't put my guo in my list but instead I stock up on command points and battalions. I can then summon the guo in the game.
eohall wrote: I really hope there is a LOT that they are not yet telling us about summoning - previous discussion about gravesites aside, the amphorae ability appears usable first turn for a free unit without any trouble. That's discouraging, I really enjoy AoS but am quickly losing my previous enthusiasm for the new edition. I know that we need to "wait and see", of course, summoning may end up being eminently balanced and a useful mechanic. All that they have shown so far makes me think it will either mean "free units for some armies" which is no fun, or "free units for all armies" which is a pretty cynical cash grab/bloat on army lists. Either way it's not a particularly adept way to build excitement for the release, which one presumes is the point of these articles.
I agree 100%, seems like a way to get people to buy more models. The game is enough of a clusterfrack as it is at 2000 points. Now if people have 2500-3000 pt armies masquerading as 2000 points it'll turn into a joke pretty fast. It will also make games last longer, which isn't a good thing if you ask me. I was considering starting AoS with this edition, but to be honest I might just stick with blood bowl...at least that game is a sure thing, and it ain't going to be changing all the time either.
Davor wrote: I thought it was just move. So I am guessing shooting and assaulting will stay the same. Time will tell.
It is just Movement, but since there's caveats to the deployment(wholly within 9" of Alarielle and outside of 9" of any enemy units) and the Treelord mentioned has a 12" range...Shooting effectively won't happen, and Charges are going to need double 6s.
I like how 9" magically becomes charges needing 12. No, charges need a 9 with a handy re roll courtesy of the new command ability. I also like the implied statement that "well if it can't move its balanced with the player who doesn't get anything".
Davor wrote: I thought it was just move. So I am guessing shooting and assaulting will stay the same. Time will tell.
It is just Movement, but since there's caveats to the deployment(wholly within 9" of Alarielle and outside of 9" of any enemy units) and the Treelord mentioned has a 12" range...Shooting effectively won't happen, and Charges are going to need double 6s.
I like how 9" magically becomes charges needing 12. No, charges need a 9 with a handy re roll courtesy of the new command ability. I also like the implied statement that "well if it can't move its balanced with the player who doesn't get anything".
You have to remain within 9" of Alarielle and outside of 9" of any enemy units.
While yeah, I did make a mistake in saying "double 6s" rather than "5+'s"--the point remains that bringing in a CC oriented monster(assuming it's just Treelords rather than anything with keyword Treelord) when it can't make a Move and just has to stand there waving its branches at people is relatively balanced.
Especially considering that anyone bringing it on turn one(which is what the argument keeps centering around) likely won't be able to bring it on within 12 inches of any enemy models to land a charge.
Then I'm sure you will gladly prove your point by playing against players who get a free 300+ point monster to deploy turn one (but it can't move!) while you get nothing. You can do that right now even, get out there and show us all how balanced it is!
NinthMusketeer wrote: Then I'm sure you will gladly prove your point by playing against players who get a free 300+ point monster to deploy turn one (but it can't move!) while you get nothing. You can do that right now even, get out there and show us all how balanced it is!
Hint: It won't be.
So you know for certain that there won't be a stratagem allowing for you to shoot any freshly deployed items?
Galas wrote: To be honest , summoning a free treelord turn 1 just because you have Alarielle is a little bonkers.
I assume she will become more expensive based on that.
Summoning a single Treelord, turn 1, and not being able to summon anything else for the duration of the game isn't likely to be gamebreaking.
I'd be more concerned about people using it as a way to bring extra Kurnoth Hunters to be honest.
Would your opinion be the same if an opposing Kharadron player got to bring on a free frigate turn one? How about a free GUO turn 1? It's like having that many extra points in the list just for bringing her.
For a once per game ability blown on the first turn, where the unit can't move or do anything associated with what the unit is designed for?
Yeah, my opinion would be about the same. If you could bring on a free Frigate that couldn't move or shoot--I'd say it's balanced. If you could bring on a free GUO that couldn't move or cast or do anything aside from stand there as a fire magnet, yes.
Deploy Alarielle near an objective. Summon the unit on that objective. Leave it behind to do what it will do: get you an objective for free. Or, summon the unit to either side and ahead of Alarielle to push it further up the board. 9" is more movement than most units get, anyway.
Summon a squad of Kurnoth Hunters with bows. Even if they can't do anything first turn, that's free shots from then on out. And, again, they can sit on an objective, or be near a Wyldwood that will give them teleportation across the board to other Wyldwoods later in the game anyway.
As is, with all that we know, it has applications that are above and beyond the value of the points. If there's no check or balance to this, it gives Sylvaneth (and other summoning armies) a distinct advantage over others.
I'd like to point out that I said earlier I'm a bit more concerned about the Kurnoth Hunters than I would ever be about the Treelord. A Treelord's nothing compared to Kurnoth IMO.
But every army is going to get to summon, so wouldnt your opponent have the same opportunity to summon something to counter or deal with said Kurnoth Hunters?
The point is that's most armies have a mini game they need to do to unlock summoning units, especially high tier ones. Allariel has ~240 of extra value to your army you can get turn one, with the hunters immediately contributing with their huge range
NinthMusketeer wrote: Then I'm sure you will gladly prove your point by playing against players who get a free 300+ point monster to deploy turn one (but it can't move!) while you get nothing. You can do that right now even, get out there and show us all how balanced it is!
Hint: It won't be.
So you know for certain that there won't be a stratagem allowing for you to shoot any freshly deployed items?
Heh, reduced to just making things up. I rest my case.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Then I'm sure you will gladly prove your point by playing against players who get a free 300+ point monster to deploy turn one (but it can't move!) while you get nothing. You can do that right now even, get out there and show us all how balanced it is!
Hint: It won't be.
So you know for certain that there won't be a stratagem allowing for you to shoot any freshly deployed items?
Heh, reduced to just making things up. I rest my case.
your argument rests on the assumption that other armies won't get a similar mechanic, so is that not equally guilty?
Hint: It is.
Back to rumours?
Still no word on what the other summonable spells are?
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Skimask Mohawk wrote: The point is that's most armies have a mini game they need to do to unlock summoning units, especially high tier ones. Allariel has ~240 of extra value to your army you can get turn one, with the hunters immediately contributing with their huge range
But that's balanced by taking Allariel, who is EZ to kill. None of my hardcore scene players care at all. We talked all day yesterday about it. It's definitely nice, but she's just not a factor in whether Slyvaneth win their games or not. We don't think this changes much.
Sure she's easy to kill...currently. I'd be amazed if the mortal wound spamming, deepstriking lists stayed the same in points in the new generals handbook, considering they've been rampaging across the game since the first generals handbook.
First Stormcast episode is up. It had some interesting tidbits.
-The "Predatory" Endless spells(the jaws are an example of these) can be taken control of during the course of the game.
-Some of the Endless spells will be a permanent buff or usable item. Jervis mentions his favorite is a spell that creates two 'mirrors' through which you can cast or move.
-If an enemy model is within 3" of you, you can only fire your missile weapon at that enemy model.
Endless spells are moved at the start of each battle round after determining who gets the first turn, with players taking it in turns to pick a spell to move, starting with the player that has the second turn that round. You’ll be able to move any Endless Spell with this move, not just the ones you control, representing their wild and untameable nature. Summon a Suffocating Gravetide and you might find yourself needing to volunteer to take the second turn in a round to stop your opponent from sending it crashing into your own units! Suddenly, always shooting for a double turn can become a very dangerous prospect indeed…
Also I love that mirror spell. Hucking a Purple Sun of Xereus through it would be entertaining.
This from the article is a cool thing:
Endless spells are one of the unforeseen consequences of Nagash’s machinations in Shyish. Where previously spells would dissipate naturally, many now take on a life of their own, roaming the realms and accumulating power almost indefinitely. Some wizards in the Mortal Realms have even taken up work as bounty hunters, tracking them down and dispelling them, while certain examples are as notorious as any dragon or beast that lives in the woods, like the legendary Phantom Blade that cleaves through Ulgu.
Also I love that mirror spell. Hucking a Purple Sun of Xereus through it would be entertaining.
This from the article is a cool thing:
Endless spells are one of the unforeseen consequences of Nagash’s machinations in Shyish. Where previously spells would dissipate naturally, many now take on a life of their own, roaming the realms and accumulating power almost indefinitely. Some wizards in the Mortal Realms have even taken up work as bounty hunters, tracking them down and dispelling them, while certain examples are as notorious as any dragon or beast that lives in the woods, like the legendary Phantom Blade that cleaves through Ulgu.
Yeah. It instantly made me want to convert a Spellhunter.
Also noted that the Balewind Vortex is receiving "... a complete rules overhaul in line with the rest of the endless spells." And could that be another as of yet unnamed endless spell between the Seraphon and Ironjawz as well...
Judging from the text I would assume that crystal wall gives cover from shooting, which is useful for gun lines for example. All in all these endless spells are a perfect example of why I find AoS so much more exciting that 40k at the moment. The designers are just having so much fun coming up with outlandish concepts and rules that you would never see in 40k.
Ghaz wrote: Also noted that the Balewind Vortex is receiving "... a complete rules overhaul in line with the rest of the endless spells." And could that be another as of yet unnamed endless spell between the Seraphon and Ironjawz as well...
Could be the one they mentioned as a "utility” spell that provides cover against ranged attacks.
Anyone else looking at these spells and thinking 'Man, these would make cool effects for DnD'?
I have concerns about these spells. The tug-of-war with them will be interesting. Also, it's clear that there will be many more models for spells than we first anticipated. Depending on how the realm rules work, it's possible that GW is going to push for every player that has spellcasting to get all of the spell models so they can play on every kind of realm. I'm a bit concerned with that, since it adds a big cost to every army, but we'll see how the realm selection rules work out I suppose...
EnTyme wrote: 2d6MW on W6+ units? Holy hell! They may as well rename to the Visage of Xereus ability to "Oh : , oh ,oh !"
And if you cast it, your opponent can control it against you if you take the double turn. So is having a double turn now all that bad now? It might seem people will NOT want the double turn now.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Then I'm sure you will gladly prove your point by playing against players who get a free 300+ point monster to deploy turn one (but it can't move!) while you get nothing. You can do that right now even, get out there and show us all how balanced it is!
Hint: It won't be.
So you know for certain that there won't be a stratagem allowing for you to shoot any freshly deployed items?
Heh, reduced to just making things up. I rest my case.
your argument rests on the assumption that other armies won't get a similar mechanic, so is that not equally guilty?
Hint: It is.
Back to rumours?
Still no word on what the other summonable spells are?
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Skimask Mohawk wrote: The point is that's most armies have a mini game they need to do to unlock summoning units, especially high tier ones. Allariel has ~240 of extra value to your army you can get turn one, with the hunters immediately contributing with their huge range
But that's balanced by taking Allariel, who is EZ to kill. None of my hardcore scene players care at all. We talked all day yesterday about it. It's definitely nice, but she's just not a factor in whether Slyvaneth win their games or not. We don't think this changes much.
Assuming a specific rule that we have no indication or rumor of will, in fact, not be implemented verses making up said rule and saying it will. No, those aren't the same, but it's cute that you made an attempt at turning that around. Topped off by Alarielle being easy to kill. What game are you playing Kan? It isn't Age of Sigmar.
And if your local group can't make Alerielle a factor in winning games then they are just terrible at playing Sylvaneth. The rest of us have no problem doing so.
Edit: Your counter argument was probably going to be 'well you just don't know how to counter her properly' so I'll head that off by saying that the players bringing her to tournaments seem pretty confident in her potency.
Chopxsticks wrote: But every army is going to get to summon, so wouldnt your opponent have the same opportunity to summon something to counter or deal with said Kurnoth Hunters?
So what they actually said was this "Units won’t be the only thing you can summon in the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar – stay tuned for more exciting news on the way for EVERY army later in the week" which is referring to the endless spells, which require wizards. Which means that not only does every army NOT get free units, any army that doesn't have STRONG magic gets no summons at all. Even armies like Idoneth and DoK are never actually going to get to use these on the simple basis that Arkhan, Nagash, and the LoC exist.
So far, my pessimistic viewpoint is that they're destroying any semblance of balance in matched play for the sake of making you buy hundreds of dollars of extra models(gotta buy that extra 400pts of stuff I can summon, gotta buy all the endless spell models, gotta buy a new army because mine can't summon)
My more optimistic viewpoint is that they're using game mechanics to force you to buy hundreds of dollars of extra models and are maybe going to put some effort into rebalancing for matched play, so that things should be good enough after the first or second big FAQ.
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drbored wrote: Anyone else looking at these spells and thinking 'Man, these would make cool effects for DnD'?
I have concerns about these spells. The tug-of-war with them will be interesting. Also, it's clear that there will be many more models for spells than we first anticipated. Depending on how the realm rules work, it's possible that GW is going to push for every player that has spellcasting to get all of the spell models so they can play on every kind of realm. I'm a bit concerned with that, since it adds a big cost to every army, but we'll see how the realm selection rules work out I suppose...
Basing off of the fact that so far 1. Everything that used to cost points to summon is now free and 2. That the endless spells have special bonuses for being used on specific realms, I'm going to say that it's likely that every spell will be usable(and free) in every realm, but will be better in the realm associated with their faction. Which means that if you run a magic heavy army you may well have to buy MANY, if not ALL of the different endless spell models.
There is room for some optimism, there could be one or more unseen rules of one that counterbalance things. If I had to guess I'd still say free summoning will be house ruled out the same way model-to-model measuring is, but I am willing to withold judgement. From what we know now it is highly imbalanced however.
Several skaven units have had their points tweaked in the new edition, making them great choices as allies or as units in their own right. We’re happiest about Thanquol and Boneripper being reduced to the point where they’ll comfortably fill out an Allies choice in a 2000 point matched play list. If you’re feeling particularly devious, use him in an Eshin army and cast Skitterleap on him with a Verminlord Deceiver to drop this deadly duo 6″ away from your unfortunate foes – just in range of their brutal Warpfire Projectors.
Finally, let’s talk about summoning. The skaven are getting some nifty new options to play with in the new edition that, while not quite as reliable as those used by armies like the Legions of Nagash, are still a lot of fun to use. Lord Skreech Verminking’s ability, the Dreaded Thirteenth Spell, now literally turns your foes into Clanrats:
Meanwhile, the Screaming Bell can still give you a Verminlord on a roll of a double 6 – only now, it doesn’t cost any points! Nifty, eh?
In other news, Thanquol is probably going to be showing up a lot at 400 points for a monster, a wizard, and a shooting attack that does 2d6 mortal wounds automatically.
Chopxsticks wrote: But every army is going to get to summon, so wouldnt your opponent have the same opportunity to summon something to counter or deal with said Kurnoth Hunters?
So what they actually said was this "Units won’t be the only thing you can summon in the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar – stay tuned for more exciting news on the way for EVERY army later in the week" which is referring to the endless spells, which require wizards. Which means that not only does every army NOT get free units, any army that doesn't have STRONG magic gets no summons at all. Even armies like Idoneth and DoK are never actually going to get to use these on the simple basis that Arkhan, Nagash, and the LoC exist.
So far, my pessimistic viewpoint is that they're destroying any semblance of balance in matched play for the sake of making you buy hundreds of dollars of extra models(gotta buy that extra 400pts of stuff I can summon, gotta buy all the endless spell models, gotta buy a new army because mine can't summon)
My more optimistic viewpoint is that they're using game mechanics to force you to buy hundreds of dollars of extra models and are maybe going to put some effort into rebalancing for matched play, so that things should be good enough after the first or second big FAQ.
Ok so you jumped from every army will have a way to summon units to endless spells? So what are we discussing now? I still think summoning mid battle only helps you counter and adjust for things you might not have prepared for. I also still think every army will have some way of summoning units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 100 pt reduction on Boneripper! Makes me wonder what other crazy reductions we are going to see. I'd be happy to see more large models on a table and not have to push around 50 models in a single Unit.
Adam Spielmann wrote: They also mentioned lowering the points for spirits of Durthu and Kurnoth Hunters too, so, it won't surprise me to see a lot of big models around.
As we know those two were really underperforming *eyeroll*
It seems to me that we're looking at an across-the-board points drop. More models on the board for everyone. I'd definitely wait to see the big picture before making any judgement on points balance.
EnTyme wrote: It seems to me that we're looking at an across-the-board points drop. More models on the board for everyone. I'd definitely wait to see the big picture before making any judgement on points balance.
I don't see any evidence of that. Only 3 faction focuses so far have had points drops in them, and they mention very specific units, and not every army has summoning.
Adam Spielmann wrote: They also mentioned lowering the points for spirits of Durthu and Kurnoth Hunters too, so, it won't surprise me to see a lot of big models around.
As we know those two were really underperforming *eyeroll*
With the shooting changes, bow Kurnoths were overpriced. Don't get the Durthu thing though.
Chopxsticks wrote: But every army is going to get to summon, so wouldnt your opponent have the same opportunity to summon something to counter or deal with said Kurnoth Hunters?
So what they actually said was this "Units won’t be the only thing you can summon in the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar – stay tuned for more exciting news on the way for EVERY army later in the week" which is referring to the endless spells, which require wizards. Which means that not only does every army NOT get free units, any army that doesn't have STRONG magic gets no summons at all. Even armies like Idoneth and DoK are never actually going to get to use these on the simple basis that Arkhan, Nagash, and the LoC exist.
So far, my pessimistic viewpoint is that they're destroying any semblance of balance in matched play for the sake of making you buy hundreds of dollars of extra models(gotta buy that extra 400pts of stuff I can summon, gotta buy all the endless spell models, gotta buy a new army because mine can't summon)
My more optimistic viewpoint is that they're using game mechanics to force you to buy hundreds of dollars of extra models and are maybe going to put some effort into rebalancing for matched play, so that things should be good enough after the first or second big FAQ.
Ok so you jumped from every army will have a way to summon units to endless spells? So what are we discussing now? I still think summoning mid battle only helps you counter and adjust for things you might not have prepared for. I also still think every army will have some way of summoning units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 100 pt reduction on Boneripper! Makes me wonder what other crazy reductions we are going to see. I'd be happy to see more large models on a table and not have to push around 50 models in a single Unit.
I took the only possible thing that you could have seen to suggest that every army will get summoning and pointed out that it probably refers to endless spells. It is extremely unlikely that every army will have ways to summon units.
Adam Spielmann wrote: They also mentioned lowering the points for spirits of Durthu and Kurnoth Hunters too, so, it won't surprise me to see a lot of big models around.
As we know those two were really underperforming *eyeroll*
With the shooting changes, bow Kurnoths were overpriced. Don't get the Durthu thing though.
100 pt reduction on Boneripper! Makes me wonder what other crazy reductions we are going to see. I'd be happy to see more large models on a table and not have to push around 50 models in a single Unit.
We will doubtless see a lot more crazy reductions. I don't know that it will necessarily change the ratio of "large-to-small" models on the table though. Those points saved on the big boys can just as easily be spent on more chaff as on more large monsters/heroes. I know GW is a company and making more money is the bottom line, but I'm super bummed on all of these "more models on the table!" changes. I liked the small scale of AoS. I get though that they need some way of making sales after people have assembled their armies.
I don't care about the scale; everything being cheaper can be undone by playing smaller games. What I care about is models costing way less than they should. The reason GHB2 is better than GHB1 is because the horde discount is harder to take advantage of tactically as well as practically. Going back to GHB1 days of 'spam elite stuff and win' would be disappointing to say the least, especially because in a number of areas that never went away.
I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.
Chikout wrote: I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.
Recovering a dead unit is less useful than having two of that unit in the first place.
Chikout wrote: I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.
Recovering a dead unit is less useful than having two of that unit in the first place.
Maybe a little. So far only Sylvaneth allows you to summon a unit turn one, and bringing a unit on early when it will be vulnerable to shooting and magic, is much less impactful than bringing it on in turn 2 or 3 when it can secure an objective or swing an important fight. If I am choosing one the units that have died it will give me a little less flexibility than someone who has brought a bunch of extra models and has free choice but
I still think I will be able to play the summoning game pretty effectively without spending any extra money.
Tell you what, take a unit and when it dies return in to the battlefield. Use it to fight an enemy who simply has two of that unit. Let us know how it goes.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Tell you what, take a unit and when it dies return in to the battlefield. Use it to fight an enemy who simply has two of that unit. Let us know how it goes.
You seem to be rather obtusely missing the point. That is not how summoning or the game in general works.
Let's say I have two units of bloodletters on the table, one summoned and one from my original list. One unit gets charged by a unit of brutes and wiped out. The brutes can then consolidate into the second unit and wipe that out too.
Alternatively I have one unit of bloodletters. They get charged by brutes and wiped out. I then summon the 'new' unit of bloodletters and counter charge, wiping out the brutes in return.
The point is that I effectively do have two units. One to soak up the charge, or shooting, or magic and a second to counter.
But this is all besides the point. Death summoning is exactly I have described it, so no need to buy extra models. All the chaos armies depend on the accumulation of points so cannot summon at the start of the game.
The only cases where I really need more models are if I want to bring a Sylvaneth unit on at the start of the game, or if I manage to roll a double six when using my screaming bell, and can summon a vermin lord.
So we are talking a maximum of $90 extra in some edge case scenarios. Not the hundreds of dollars that some people are claiming. As for the endless spells you might need to buy some appropriate sized bases and a few craft materials to scratch build the spells.
That said I probably will but the giant flaming teeth, simply because it is cool.
Unless summoned units dont give up points, that dreaded theireenth spell seems bad. Plop down 6-7 clan rats, they get sneezed at and die, thats VP for the enemy.
Crazyterran wrote: Unless summoned units dont give up points, that dreaded theireenth spell seems bad. Plop down 6-7 clan rats, they get sneezed at and die, thats VP for the enemy.
Crazyterran wrote: Unless summoned units dont give up points, that dreaded theireenth spell seems bad. Plop down 6-7 clan rats, they get sneezed at and die, thats VP for the enemy.
That will only matter if you and your opponent are tied on points at the end of the game, or there was no clear winner denoted in the objectives...
These abilities now cost no reinforcement points and have been tweaked so they work once per Ghoul King. In short, this means that every Ghoul King essentially comes with a free unit, while your Courtiers will ensure they stay in the fight. Our recommendation? Take a Royal Family Warscroll Battalion, max out on Ghoul Kings of your choice and quickly multiply your army with command points for maximum efficiency.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Tell you what, take a unit and when it dies return in to the battlefield. Use it to fight an enemy who simply has two of that unit. Let us know how it goes.
You seem to be rather obtusely missing the point. That is not how summoning or the game in general works.
Let's say I have two units of bloodletters on the table, one summoned and one from my original list. One unit gets charged by a unit of brutes and wiped out. The brutes can then consolidate into the second unit and wipe that out too.
Alternatively I have one unit of bloodletters. They get charged by brutes and wiped out. I then summon the 'new' unit of bloodletters and counter charge, wiping out the brutes in return.
The point is that I effectively do have two units. One to soak up the charge, or shooting, or magic and a second to counter.
That's... An absurdly specific example that would only work if you specifically positioned your bloodletters to let him do that. Besides, realistically you re-summon the dead unit, fail the 9" charge then die even more readily than you would have. Verses having the second unit behind the first ready to charge or even just pile in when the first is dead. You also dodged my obvious point where my scenario obviously favors the player with two units. I get what you're saying with saving money and making the best of what you have, that's entirely valid. But the idea that re-summoning dead units is just as good or somehow better than just having them from the start is silly.
These abilities now cost no reinforcement points and have been tweaked so they work once per Ghoul King. In short, this means that every Ghoul King essentially comes with a free unit, while your Courtiers will ensure they stay in the fight. Our recommendation? Take a Royal Family Warscroll Battalion, max out on Ghoul Kings of your choice and quickly multiply your army with command points for maximum efficiency.
Interesting indeed. Though it leaves the question of units going above maximum size. If they are allowed to do so freely I can see some issues.
If you only get a single unit having it from the start is going to be more powerful,
but if you only get a single unit at the start, or the possibility to bring back multiple dead units (especially if you tailor your play knowing your going to do so) I suspect the latter will be better
Chikout wrote: I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.
Not every summoning strategy brings back dead units, you'll also want to be flexible in what you can summon. If you only have a LoC to summon but 20 horrors would win you the game, that's a problem.
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Chopxsticks wrote: ERJACK I also dont see any evidence to back up your claims. So why are you so doom and gloom...
If 'Several armies have essentially moved from 2000pts to 2500pts increasing the amount of models people playing those armies are likely to buy' combined with 'they're releasing multiple near mandatory terrain kits every magical army will find desirable while admitting at warhammerfest that it's going to create issues for armies that don't have strong magic' doesn't qualify as at least SOME evidence of GW trying to artificially increase the amount of models people buy, I don't know what to tell you. And I'm a bit doom and gloom at the moment, because most of what we've seen so far has been pretty doomy/gloomy. In fact, as much as I don't like free summoning, I actually like what we know about the realm system even less.
Chikout wrote: I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.
Not every summoning strategy brings back dead units, you'll also want to be flexible in what you can summon. If you only have a LoC to summon but 20 horrors would win you the game, that's a problem.
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Chopxsticks wrote: ERJACK I also dont see any evidence to back up your claims. So why are you so doom and gloom...
If 'Several armies have essentially moved from 2000pts to 2500pts increasing the amount of models people playing those armies are likely to buy' combined with 'they're releasing multiple near mandatory terrain kits every magical army will find desirable while admitting at warhammerfest that it's going to create issues for armies that don't have strong magic' doesn't qualify as at least SOME evidence of GW trying to artificially increase the amount of models people buy, I don't know what to tell you. And I'm a bit doom and gloom at the moment, because most of what we've seen so far has been pretty doomy/gloomy. In fact, as much as I don't like free summoning, I actually like what we know about the realm system even less.
Points free summoning CAN work. Other games have pulled it off successfully. There is no reason GW can't. The question is, will they.
There are 4 books that have been written for the new edition. LoN, DoK, Maggotkin, and IDK.
Those are the only books we should be comparing to each other atm, as everything else is going to have to be tweaked in one way or the other.
And honestly, I don't rate Nurgle or Legions summoning traits any higher than IDKs trait that allows them to completely control their opponents shooting phase.
So, summoning cheese table so far:
1.Flesh eater courts - get to summon a free new unit per ghoul King per game. You can have many ghoul Kings. There will be tons of cannibals on the board, quick.
2.Allariel, summon a free unit once per game. Simple and powerful.
3. Bloodhound, Maggotkin and Slannesh - all of these involve accumulating currency throughout the game and then paying for units using that.
4. Legions of Nagash - when a summonable unit dies, your general can summon it back from a gravesite, following some serious restrictions
5. Skaven - maybe will randomly summon units from spells or Bell, not really a strategy...just a random thing.
All ranked. Flesh eater courts will be a pain to play against I'm sure.
On another note...I do think that that's how AoS should be played. In the lore you'd be swarmed by ghouls and it WON'T be a fair fight. Skeletons will keep coming back if you kill them. We're not playing chess and some things I think could be deliberately unfair, as long as you always have the chance to beat them. For tournaments it's another matter completely but that's tournaments. In 99% of casual play I'd say it is more thematic and appropriate for summoning to work like this even if it is favouring summoning factions. Of course that's highly subjective, you play how you want to play, this is just my take.
Flesh Eater courts were pretty close to the bottom of the list before this. Summoning is the one good thing they have unlike Nurgle and Tzeentch, who were already pretty good.
My guess is that Tzeentch, Nurgle, Legions of Nagash, Nighthaunt, Stormcast, Seraphon, Daughters of Khaine, and Ironjaws will do very well, (the last two due to very effective command point combos). Kharadron Overlords, Free peoples,
Dispossessed, and Beastclaw raiders will suffer due to a lack of magic, summoning or effective command point combos. The rest will be OK.
Chikout wrote: I don't see why the summoning rules would force you to buy extra models. On of the advantages of summoning us being able to bring fresh units on later in the game. My strategy to take full advantage of summoning without buying a single extra model is simply to bring back units that die during the game.
This is pretty much how legions of Nagash does it anyway.
The spells are mostly pretty simple models which are easily scratch built. You could make a pretty comparable purple sun with a bunch of play dough and some cocktail sticks.
Not every summoning strategy brings back dead units, you'll also want to be flexible in what you can summon. If you only have a LoC to summon but 20 horrors would win you the game, that's a problem.
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Chopxsticks wrote: ERJACK I also dont see any evidence to back up your claims. So why are you so doom and gloom...
If 'Several armies have essentially moved from 2000pts to 2500pts increasing the amount of models people playing those armies are likely to buy' combined with 'they're releasing multiple near mandatory terrain kits every magical army will find desirable while admitting at warhammerfest that it's going to create issues for armies that don't have strong magic' doesn't qualify as at least SOME evidence of GW trying to artificially increase the amount of models people buy, I don't know what to tell you. And I'm a bit doom and gloom at the moment, because most of what we've seen so far has been pretty doomy/gloomy. In fact, as much as I don't like free summoning, I actually like what we know about the realm system even less.
Literally no different from points reductions.
...sigh, no imagination at all, lol. It's a big difference from point reductions, it's actually hugely superior to just dropping points on things in terms of Dollars earned. The different summoning systems means that what you'll be able to summon and what you'll need to summon change every game. If they drop an army's points so that 2000pts becomes 1500pts, the player will have to buy 500pts. If they let you summon 500ish points every game, then you're going to need to buy more than 500pts(most of the time).
Let's say I'm playing maggotkin and they drop everything so that powerlevels are the same relative to each other, but everything together is 500pts cheaper. In that case I buy a GUO and 5 putrid blight kings and my list is complete again. If they let me summon 500ish points of units then I need a GUO, 20-40 additional plaguebearers, Plague Drones, an extra herald, etc because not only do I not know in advance exactly what'll I'll be able to summon, I won't know what the game will call for either.
Legions of Nagash obviously aren't like this, but they're fairly unique in that regard.
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Chikout wrote: Flesh Eater courts were pretty close to the bottom of the list before this. Summoning is the one good thing they have unlike Nurgle and Tzeentch, who were already pretty good.
My guess is that Tzeentch, Nurgle, Legions of Nagash, Nighthaunt, Stormcast, Seraphon, Daughters of Khaine, and Ironjaws will do very well, (the last two due to very effective command point combos). Kharadron Overlords, Free peoples,
Dispossessed, and Beastclaw raiders will suffer due to a lack of magic, summoning or effective command point combos. The rest will be OK.
I don't think command points and the universal command abilities are going to be enough to deal with how badly the rest of the changes we've seen so far hammer DoK. Purple Sun by itself is enough to rethink bringing DoK to any competitive events.
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Aren73 wrote: So, summoning cheese table so far:
1.Flesh eater courts - get to summon a free new unit per ghoul King per game. You can have many ghoul Kings. There will be tons of cannibals on the board, quick.
2.Allariel, summon a free unit once per game. Simple and powerful.
3. Bloodhound, Maggotkin and Slannesh - all of these involve accumulating currency throughout the game and then paying for units using that.
4. Legions of Nagash - when a summonable unit dies, your general can summon it back from a gravesite, following some serious restrictions
5. Skaven - maybe will randomly summon units from spells or Bell, not really a strategy...just a random thing.
All ranked. Flesh eater courts will be a pain to play against I'm sure.
On another note...I do think that that's how AoS should be played. In the lore you'd be swarmed by ghouls and it WON'T be a fair fight. Skeletons will keep coming back if you kill them. We're not playing chess and some things I think could be deliberately unfair, as long as you always have the chance to beat them. For tournaments it's another matter completely but that's tournaments. In 99% of casual play I'd say it is more thematic and appropriate for summoning to work like this even if it is favouring summoning factions. Of course that's highly subjective, you play how you want to play, this is just my take.
My personal take is that there's never a thematic gain large enough to offset a balance loss. If you win games, even in a casual setting, because your army was just flat out better than your opponents, you don't remember how thematic it was that none of your units died, you remember feeling bad over watching your opponent get frustrated and downtrodden.
@ERJAK - Fair enough, I see what you mean, it's a fair point and it will be subjective and different for everyone. Personally I like losing as long as the game wasn't one-sided to such a point that there was nothing I could do. I hate games of say 40k where half my army is wiped out turn 1 by shooting and then it's just like "well, I guess I should just go f*** myself then".
Fighting Flesh Eater courts will be annoying and unfair now I guess, however you know that a) you can win, it's not impossible and b) you can see they'd take heavy losses from your army, it's not like you can't do anything
That is fine for me, if I can say that yes, my army was overcome by a tide of ghouls but I killed most of them in the process then that sounds like a decently fun game.
It's up to GW to make sure that these armies don't just steamroll their opponent. From what we've seen I don't think that's the case.
Your argument boiled down to trying to present it as different, when all you managed to do in that novel was dance around how it's the same result, just different levels of impact.
Everybody is so focused on "free points" in a 2k point game when the same exact thing could be achieved by reducing the points costs of those units by an amount that allows you to field more of them. That type of balancing happens all the time and nobody has an issue with that method. The difference here being that those units start on the board.
What if instead of major cost reductions they do a minor or zero point cost reduction and hand out free summoning in a limited manner? The result is the same - more models in the game, but one of those is boring because you just start with more and they do nothing different or serve no different purpose while the other adds tactical flexibility and a compelling decision for both players, changing up the game for everyone.
My point is, all this freaking out about 300 free points (or whatever inflated arbitrary number one chooses) would not exist if point reductions hit to the same tune. And nobody has ever made the argument that points were dropped just to help the bottom line without looking like a complete fool with an axe to grind.
Pretty sure Ghoul Kings will be going up in points anyways to compensate for their new abilities (which are single use per king). Probably 200 points each. Keep in mind they can't heal units, you still need Courtiers for that, so a balance of both will be key for FEC armies.
And they are one of the absolute weakest armies in the game. presently. Having the strongest summoning mechanic might just put them in par.
My point is, all this freaking out about 300 free points (or whatever inflated arbitrary number one chooses) would not exist if point reductions hit to the same tune. And nobody has ever made the argument that points were dropped just to help the bottom line without looking like a complete fool with an axe to grind.
I don't know that you can say the first with any certainty (if you do have proof, please share it), and as to the second, what are the compelling reasons in favor of points reductions? I'm actually stunned that you've positioned a consideration of how game design decisions affect the bottom line of the company that makes the game as "foolish". Takes a certain kind of bravura.
It's basically - the underperforming useless units we made are now cheaper, so you have less of an incentive not to take them.
Oh and you want to be competitive and not run just one list...um, just ally some stormcast!
Yep, the answer to making Kharadron Overlords decent is to have less Kharadron Overlords.
(btw I don't think KO are all that terrible, just that gunhaulers are awful and thunderers are not killy enough and frigates are too expensive, one of which they have addressed)
My point is, all this freaking out about 300 free points (or whatever inflated arbitrary number one chooses) would not exist if point reductions hit to the same tune. And nobody has ever made the argument that points were dropped just to help the bottom line without looking like a complete fool with an axe to grind.
I don't know that you can say the first with any certainty (if you do have proof, please share it), and as to the second, what are the compelling reasons in favor of points reductions? I'm actually stunned that you've positioned a consideration of how game design decisions affect the bottom line of the company that makes the game as "foolish". Takes a certain kind of bravura.
First, I'm not saying that these decisions aren't made with business in mind - I'm sure they are. I'm saying that lambasting them for free summoning as a "cash grab" to sell more models is idiotic. I'm saying that they're not driven by sales only. It's literally no different from reducing points costs for units so that in order to fill 2k points you need more models. They're functionally similar, but folks love points drops but seem to hate summoning. It's ridiculous.
ON top of that, an unbalanced game does not do well for the bottom line, so I reject the idea that all decisions are made to ensure sales above all other considerations. Furthermore, a boring one is also pretty much DOA - that's why WHFB died the death it deserved.
Aren73 wrote: It's basically - the underperforming useless units we made are now cheaper, so you have less of an incentive not to take them.
Oh and you want to be competitive and not run just one list...um, just ally some stormcast!
Yep, the answer to making Kharadron Overlords decent is to have less Kharadron Overlords.
(btw I don't think KO are all that terrible, just that gunhaulers are awful and thunderers are not killy enough and frigates are too expensive, one of which they have addressed)
Doesn't seem like a problem to me. Then again, I come from 40k where allies for the three biggest factions are required if you want to be competitive. That's the direction they want to go, so it is what it is.
I'm all for the change to FEC if it means units can go above starting size. A point bump for the single use command items on our only non-allied casters will hurt but overall I'd honestly only keep taking the two kings I have now if the bump is reasonable or cut the foot king entirely if it's not. Their spells are good but honestly going above starting strength from courtiers would be far, far more useful. 3 Vargulfs behind a starting unit of 6 Cryptflayers and 10 Ghouls from a ghoul patrol seems solid
Hulksmash wrote: I'm all for the change to FEC if it means units can go above starting size. A point bump for the single use command items on our only non-allied casters will hurt but overall I'd honestly only keep taking the two kings I have now if the bump is reasonable or cut the foot king entirely if it's not. Their spells are good but honestly going above starting strength from courtiers would be far, far more useful. 3 Vargulfs behind a starting unit of 6 Cryptflayers and 10 Ghouls from a ghoul patrol seems solid
People seem to have little to no understanding of FEC. They aren't a bad army for starters, and getting a free unit from each Ghoul King isn't a big deal. It's all in going beyond starting size. If that works freely FEC will jump from mid-low range to extremely OP, if it doesn't FEC will hinge on point changes. One free unit of 10 ghouls is nothing to the two dozen a courtier could add to existing units over the course of a game.
Hulksmash wrote: I'm all for the change to FEC if it means units can go above starting size. A point bump for the single use command items on our only non-allied casters will hurt but overall I'd honestly only keep taking the two kings I have now if the bump is reasonable or cut the foot king entirely if it's not. Their spells are good but honestly going above starting strength from courtiers would be far, far more useful. 3 Vargulfs behind a starting unit of 6 Cryptflayers and 10 Ghouls from a ghoul patrol seems solid
People seem to have little to no understanding of FEC. They aren't a bad army for starters, and getting a free unit from each Ghoul King isn't a big deal. It's all in going beyond starting size. If that works freely FEC will jump from mid-low range to extremely OP, if it doesn't FEC will hinge on point changes. One free unit of 10 ghouls is nothing to the two dozen a courtier could add to existing units over the course of a game.
Naw. FEC are pretty terrible man. I get you specifically think they aren't but they are point for point in the lowest tier of books released. They are only decent in comparison to non book non ghb enhanced armies.
In regards how it will function if you can blast up units I expect a price hike fore Vargulfs and the other two more specific courtiers. Ghats will likely not bump much if at all. Ghouls for their points are terrible because of almost no army synergy. I'd argue the same is true for their larger brethren. Overall this is a good thing. Especially if you can bounce above the starting limit.
Hulksmash wrote: I'm all for the change to FEC if it means units can go above starting size. A point bump for the single use command items on our only non-allied casters will hurt but overall I'd honestly only keep taking the two kings I have now if the bump is reasonable or cut the foot king entirely if it's not. Their spells are good but honestly going above starting strength from courtiers would be far, far more useful. 3 Vargulfs behind a starting unit of 6 Cryptflayers and 10 Ghouls from a ghoul patrol seems solid
People seem to have little to no understanding of FEC. They aren't a bad army for starters, and getting a free unit from each Ghoul King isn't a big deal. It's all in going beyond starting size. If that works freely FEC will jump from mid-low range to extremely OP, if it doesn't FEC will hinge on point changes. One free unit of 10 ghouls is nothing to the two dozen a courtier could add to existing units over the course of a game.
Naw. FEC are pretty terrible man. I get you specifically think they aren't but they are point for point in the lowest tier of books released. They are only decent in comparison to non book non ghb enhanced armies.
In regards how it will function if you can blast up units I expect a price hike fore Vargulfs and the other two more specific courtiers. Ghats will likely not bump much if at all. Ghouls for their points are terrible because of almost no army synergy. I'd argue the same is true for their larger brethren. Overall this is a good thing. Especially if you can bounce above the starting limit.
Oh sure they are bad among battletome armies, I'm only commenting on performance overall. Most WHFB is stuck in the non-battletome department, there are huge swaths of the game that perform so poorly as armies they are rarely if ever seen.
But none of that changes that 'free unit per ghoul king' means next to nothing compared to if going above starting size is free or not.
Aren73 wrote: It's basically - the underperforming useless units we made are now cheaper, so you have less of an incentive not to take them.
Oh and you want to be competitive and not run just one list...um, just ally some stormcast!
Yep, the answer to making Kharadron Overlords decent is to have less Kharadron Overlords.
(btw I don't think KO are all that terrible, just that gunhaulers are awful and thunderers are not killy enough and frigates are too expensive, one of which they have addressed)
The 'success' of Detachments in 40k has made it apparent GW love the concept of allies because it encourages you, on some level, to dip into other model lines. Whether it be from a tournament perspective for soup or "hm I could bring this new Ymodel and still keep my army as X". Going forward, we're probably going to see "BUY MORE ALLIES NERDS!" pushed harder than armies having massive glaring flaws that are somehow accounted for, such as improving the Navigator's anti-magic potential beyond what it already was.
I think the point of mentioning the possibility of using allies is that, prior to Stormcasts having wizards, there was literally no way to ally one in and still retain KO allegiance. None of the factions they can have as allies have any wizards - now Stormcast do (or will). Yeah, you could just go straight Order and throw what you liked in, but since this is a faction focus article, the assumption is that it's addressed to KO players specifically.
So it's actually a significant change to the options available, even if it feels a little weird to mention it on first blush.
Thommy H wrote: I think the point of mentioning the possibility of using allies is that, prior to Stormcasts having wizards, there was literally no way to ally one in and still retain KO allegiance. None of the factions they can have as allies have any wizards - now Stormcast do (or will). Yeah, you could just go straight Order and throw what you liked in, but since this is a faction focus article, the assumption is that it's addressed to KO players specifically.
So it's actually a significant change to the options available, even if it feels a little weird to mention it on first blush.
Yeah, wizard access is something that's a big deal for Kharadrons, as a Kharadron player it didn't seem to me like they were pushing it as mandatory. They are in a good place as an army but lack internal balance. Thunders are a big example here because even though the point cost is appropriate for the ideal loadout the unit meant to use special weapons has terrible special weapons after the update. Its pretty much 4 rifles/1 fumigator as auto take and ignore the other three (or go for a ten man unit that isn't really ideal). The massive point reduction to gunhaulers is justified IMO, they were bad before and needed extra help with the shooting change. Frigates needed a reduction too, but I think Ironclads didn't. No mention of new battleline choices is unfortunate but I still have hope.
Thommy H wrote: I think the point of mentioning the possibility of using allies is that, prior to Stormcasts having wizards, there was literally no way to ally one in and still retain KO allegiance. None of the factions they can have as allies have any wizards - now Stormcast do (or will). Yeah, you could just go straight Order and throw what you liked in, but since this is a faction focus article, the assumption is that it's addressed to KO players specifically.
So it's actually a significant change to the options available, even if it feels a little weird to mention it on first blush.
Yeah, wizard access is something that's a big deal for Kharadrons, as a Kharadron player it didn't seem to me like they were pushing it as mandatory. They are in a good place as an army but lack internal balance. Thunders are a big example here because even though the point cost is appropriate for the ideal loadout the unit meant to use special weapons has terrible special weapons after the update. Its pretty much 4 rifles/1 fumigator as auto take and ignore the other three (or go for a ten man unit that isn't really ideal). The massive point reduction to gunhaulers is justified IMO, they were bad before and needed extra help with the shooting change. Frigates needed a reduction too, but I think Ironclads didn't. No mention of new battleline choices is unfortunate but I still have hope.
It was nice that in addition to mentioning the Stormcast angle, they also threw another Realm Artefact out there as a solution.
Thommy H wrote: I think the point of mentioning the possibility of using allies is that, prior to Stormcasts having wizards, there was literally no way to ally one in and still retain KO allegiance. None of the factions they can have as allies have any wizards - now Stormcast do (or will). Yeah, you could just go straight Order and throw what you liked in, but since this is a faction focus article, the assumption is that it's addressed to KO players specifically.
So it's actually a significant change to the options available, even if it feels a little weird to mention it on first blush.
Yeah, wizard access is something that's a big deal for Kharadrons, as a Kharadron player it didn't seem to me like they were pushing it as mandatory. They are in a good place as an army but lack internal balance. Thunders are a big example here because even though the point cost is appropriate for the ideal loadout the unit meant to use special weapons has terrible special weapons after the update. Its pretty much 4 rifles/1 fumigator as auto take and ignore the other three (or go for a ten man unit that isn't really ideal). The massive point reduction to gunhaulers is justified IMO, they were bad before and needed extra help with the shooting change. Frigates needed a reduction too, but I think Ironclads didn't. No mention of new battleline choices is unfortunate but I still have hope.
It was nice that in addition to mentioning the Stormcast angle, they also threw another Realm Artefact out there as a solution.
Which is funny since they have an artifact in their battletome that does exactly that already, and a hero that does that already, and a sky port that is one of the best anti-magic builds in the game. That artifact is entirely unnecessary to Kharadrons.
Your argument boiled down to trying to present it as different, when all you managed to do in that novel was dance around how it's the same result, just different levels of impact.
Everybody is so focused on "free points" in a 2k point game when the same exact thing could be achieved by reducing the points costs of those units by an amount that allows you to field more of them. That type of balancing happens all the time and nobody has an issue with that method. The difference here being that those units start on the board.
What if instead of major cost reductions they do a minor or zero point cost reduction and hand out free summoning in a limited manner? The result is the same - more models in the game, but one of those is boring because you just start with more and they do nothing different or serve no different purpose while the other adds tactical flexibility and a compelling decision for both players, changing up the game for everyone.
My point is, all this freaking out about 300 free points (or whatever inflated arbitrary number one chooses) would not exist if point reductions hit to the same tune. And nobody has ever made the argument that points were dropped just to help the bottom line without looking like a complete fool with an axe to grind.
My argument boiled down to you having 0 imagination(or just not being able to connect the dots well enough) not agreeing with you, good try though. I love how you follow that up with doubling down on not getting the point, and manage to still be wrong in the same simplistic thinking that you were using before.
And your point is actually 'I am very naive' if you were curious. GW dropping points to help the bottom line was exactly what everyone thought happened with the 7th edition Eldar codex and guess what? THEY WERE RIGHT! An AMA came out from one of the guys on the rules team at that time and he stated that he was expressly told not to raise the points on wraithknights, scatbikes and other units made more powerful by the codex because they would sell more. Your child-like innocence is cute, but it's not a fair representation of the world.
My point is, all this freaking out about 300 free points (or whatever inflated arbitrary number one chooses) would not exist if point reductions hit to the same tune. And nobody has ever made the argument that points were dropped just to help the bottom line without looking like a complete fool with an axe to grind.
I don't know that you can say the first with any certainty (if you do have proof, please share it), and as to the second, what are the compelling reasons in favor of points reductions? I'm actually stunned that you've positioned a consideration of how game design decisions affect the bottom line of the company that makes the game as "foolish". Takes a certain kind of bravura.
First, I'm not saying that these decisions aren't made with business in mind - I'm sure they are. I'm saying that lambasting them for free summoning as a "cash grab" to sell more models is idiotic. I'm saying that they're not driven by sales only. It's literally no different from reducing points costs for units so that in order to fill 2k points you need more models. They're functionally similar, but folks love points drops but seem to hate summoning. It's ridiculous.
ON top of that, an unbalanced game does not do well for the bottom line, so I reject the idea that all decisions are made to ensure sales above all other considerations. Furthermore, a boring one is also pretty much DOA - that's why WHFB died the death it deserved.
And I think it's idiotic to say 'what, a change that makes you buy more models to field the same army...MIGHT HAVE BEEN MADE TO MAKE YOU BUY MORE MODELS?!' isn't a totally fair logical conclusion. You even say 'they're making these changes with business in mind'...like, what do you think that means? Because if it doesn't mean 'sell more models' then what does that mean to you? That they think the word 'business' over and over again while writing new rules?
Unbalanced games are all GW sells, and they seem to be doing pretty okay. And you can reject the idea that all decisions are made to ensure sales, that's probably correct even. Rejecting out of hand that increasing army sizes and adding models that every army will want to expand their lists with wasn't made with sales in mind is childish.
Your argument boiled down to trying to present it as different, when all you managed to do in that novel was dance around how it's the same result, just different levels of impact.
Everybody is so focused on "free points" in a 2k point game when the same exact thing could be achieved by reducing the points costs of those units by an amount that allows you to field more of them. That type of balancing happens all the time and nobody has an issue with that method. The difference here being that those units start on the board.
What if instead of major cost reductions they do a minor or zero point cost reduction and hand out free summoning in a limited manner? The result is the same - more models in the game, but one of those is boring because you just start with more and they do nothing different or serve no different purpose while the other adds tactical flexibility and a compelling decision for both players, changing up the game for everyone.
My point is, all this freaking out about 300 free points (or whatever inflated arbitrary number one chooses) would not exist if point reductions hit to the same tune. And nobody has ever made the argument that points were dropped just to help the bottom line without looking like a complete fool with an axe to grind.
My argument boiled down to you having 0 imagination(or just not being able to connect the dots well enough) not agreeing with you, good try though. I love how you follow that up with doubling down on not getting the point, and manage to still be wrong in the same simplistic thinking that you were using before.
And your point is actually 'I am very naive' if you were curious. GW dropping points to help the bottom line was exactly what everyone thought happened with the 7th edition Eldar codex and guess what? THEY WERE RIGHT! An AMA came out from one of the guys on the rules team at that time and he stated that he was expressly told not to raise the points on wraithknights, scatbikes and other units made more powerful by the codex because they would sell more. Your child-like innocence is cute, but it's not a fair representation of the world.
My point is, all this freaking out about 300 free points (or whatever inflated arbitrary number one chooses) would not exist if point reductions hit to the same tune. And nobody has ever made the argument that points were dropped just to help the bottom line without looking like a complete fool with an axe to grind.
I don't know that you can say the first with any certainty (if you do have proof, please share it), and as to the second, what are the compelling reasons in favor of points reductions? I'm actually stunned that you've positioned a consideration of how game design decisions affect the bottom line of the company that makes the game as "foolish". Takes a certain kind of bravura.
First, I'm not saying that these decisions aren't made with business in mind - I'm sure they are. I'm saying that lambasting them for free summoning as a "cash grab" to sell more models is idiotic. I'm saying that they're not driven by sales only. It's literally no different from reducing points costs for units so that in order to fill 2k points you need more models. They're functionally similar, but folks love points drops but seem to hate summoning. It's ridiculous.
ON top of that, an unbalanced game does not do well for the bottom line, so I reject the idea that all decisions are made to ensure sales above all other considerations. Furthermore, a boring one is also pretty much DOA - that's why WHFB died the death it deserved.
And I think it's idiotic to say 'what, a change that makes you buy more models to field the same army...MIGHT HAVE BEEN MADE TO MAKE YOU BUY MORE MODELS?!' isn't a totally fair logical conclusion. You even say 'they're making these changes with business in mind'...like, what do you think that means? Because if it doesn't mean 'sell more models' then what does that mean to you? That they think the word 'business' over and over again while writing new rules?
Unbalanced games are all GW sells, and they seem to be doing pretty okay. And you can reject the idea that all decisions are made to ensure sales, that's probably correct even. Rejecting out of hand that increasing army sizes and adding models that every army will want to expand their lists with wasn't made with sales in mind is childish.
Could you please, pretty please, with a kiss from Slaanesh on top; spoiler long quotes so that we don't all have to scroll past the same argument over and over again. We've all seen it already.
So GW are doing little promotional podcasts three times a week for AoS. Today's podcast revealed a couple of things.
There will be a big box for malign sorcery which will contain models for 13 endless spells.
The spells will cost points in matched play; 20- 40 for the weaker ones and rather more for the more powerful ones.
So...a spell costs points but summonable units don't?
I guess you're upgrading your wizard to know the spell, paying for his tuition....and his maintenance ….and for the ambulance when he binges on a night out. You probably have to bail him out of jail after those bar fights...and his huge bill of takeway pizza. Oh and you probably have to pay for that laptop that you're sure he doesn't need but he insists he does....sending your wizard off to wizarding uni isn't easy I guess!
Would be cool to see you dont need a wizard to summon the endless spells or something. Like they have some other mechanic to bring them into play if you need to pay points for them. I mean how else will they sell sweet spell models to Armies that dont pack alot of wizards!
Easy. You make the spells broken, then you force competitive armies to have to take wizard allies. That way they buy more models they don't need as well as the spells.
Note: I actually think these will be fun and balanced, it's just fun to laugh at how ridiculous GW could be
Chopxsticks wrote: Would be cool to see you dont need a wizard to summon the endless spells or something. Like they have some other mechanic to bring them into play if you need to pay points for them. I mean how else will they sell sweet spell models to Armies that dont pack alot of wizards!
From what they've said, you don't need wizards to move them. They did also say that the reason for Stormcast Wizards is because basically everyone Order who doesn't have Wizards natively can bring Stormcast but can't necessarily bring things like Battlemages, Eldritch Council, or Darkling Covens.
Aren73 wrote: So...a spell costs points but summonable units don't?
I guess you're upgrading your wizard to know the spell, paying for his tuition....and his maintenance ….and for the ambulance when he binges on a night out. You probably have to bail him out of jail after those bar fights...and his huge bill of takeway pizza. Oh and you probably have to pay for that laptop that you're sure he doesn't need but he insists he does....sending your wizard off to wizarding uni isn't easy I guess!
I think you forgot insurance there. Yep, the cost keeps piling high. Better have a good job to pay for it all or no wizardry for you!
Honestly I think if this plays out as mentioned it's a step in the right direction. Paying points to get an ability isn't unreasonable, and having different costs for different potency isn't unreasonable either.
Awesome, our preview rule needs clarification....Because as it reads now you could actually do this 3 times with a Slaan since they cast 3 times. Meaning 10+d3 points per turn. Granted a lot depends on the list and costs on their but that feels like it could build up quickly.
That said it's a sneak peek and doesn't show all the rules or point changes so I'll sit tight. As a lover of the Seraphon I hope it's not terribly abusive because I don't want my army sitting on a shelf while I bring out other stuff
Aren73 wrote: So...a spell costs points but summonable units don't?
I guess you're upgrading your wizard to know the spell, paying for his tuition....and his maintenance ….and for the ambulance when he binges on a night out. You probably have to bail him out of jail after those bar fights...and his huge bill of takeway pizza. Oh and you probably have to pay for that laptop that you're sure he doesn't need but he insists he does....sending your wizard off to wizarding uni isn't easy I guess!
I think you forgot insurance there. Yep, the cost keeps piling high. Better have a good job to pay for it all or no wizardry for you!
Honestly I think if this plays out as mentioned it's a step in the right direction. Paying points to get an ability isn't unreasonable, and having different costs for different potency isn't unreasonable either.
It's also worth mentioning that as it stands, the impression is that you pay the points to cast the endless spell. Meaning any of your Wizards can cast it for that points cost.
Compare that to summoning, which we're seeing require separate mechanics aside from points.
Awesome, our preview rule needs clarification....Because as it reads now you could actually do this 3 times with a Slaan since they cast 3 times. Meaning 10+d3 points per turn. Granted a lot depends on the list and costs on their but that feels like it could build up quickly.
That said it's a sneak peek and doesn't show all the rules or point changes so I'll sit tight. As a lover of the Seraphon I hope it's not terribly abusive because I don't want my army sitting on a shelf while I bring out other stuff
What are you seeing that needs clarification? The ritual applies to a Slann general. He can generate 3 points instead of casting a spell, so if he forgoes all of his casting, he generates 9 points (12 for Lord Kroak) plus the 1 point, plus 1d3 if you have any Astrolith Banners. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. It makes sense that the Slann is giving up all spellcasting to conjure more (or more powerful) units.
I dig this alot, Slaan Bro sits idle for a turn or two and then Boom summons a monster. I guess it all depends on the summoning cost table but thematically is sounds pretty cool.
Considering how much these guys cost, I doubt having 9-12 points a turn by foregoing the entire casting power of a slaan/kroak (which is their main selling point) is too much of an issue.
Aren73 wrote:So...a spell costs points but summonable units don't?
May you please show a quote or link that says this. Where is it said that summon able units don't cost points? While they may not cost points you still have to PAY a resource for them. Is it balanced? Are these resource points equal to regular points? Time will tell.
That said from your point summon able units are not FREE. I will admit if I am wrong, so please show me where I have erred.
Thank you ImAGeek. I was talking in the vein how Aren was. While they don't cost building points, they do cost summoning resource points.
So now depending on what army you play, there is a mechanic to earn summoning points. So in fact summoning does cost points, just not the points we use to build our armies. I forget what those are called.
I didn't say this just in case I was wrong and there is a summoning units that don't cost nothing.
So maybe what GW needs to say that Summoning is not free but still costs a resource point that we need to earn.
*edit*
I am surprised that GW is doubling down on the "free summoning" term. It will upset some people. Why not put people's mind at ease and not use that term and just use summoning points instead of free.
Voss wrote: Every single faction focus article that mentions summons restates that they don't cost points.
Think that’s what Davor is saying, while they don’t cost points they do cost something, a resource of some kind.
Not all of them, and the person he was quoting was talking about points specifically.
Sylvaneth Queen, fleasheaters: no resources.
Khorne stuff: points for doing what you want to do anyway
Slaanesh stuff: probably the most difficult, as you have to keep friendly and enemy pieces alive to get points.
Seraphim can just have some specific saurus guys around and just get them automatically., but slowly.
I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.
You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.
Points.
Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….
How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.
Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.
Awesome, our preview rule needs clarification....Because as it reads now you could actually do this 3 times with a Slaan since they cast 3 times. Meaning 10+d3 points per turn. Granted a lot depends on the list and costs on their but that feels like it could build up quickly.
That said it's a sneak peek and doesn't show all the rules or point changes so I'll sit tight. As a lover of the Seraphon I hope it's not terribly abusive because I don't want my army sitting on a shelf while I bring out other stuff
What are you seeing that needs clarification? The ritual applies to a Slann general. He can generate 3 points instead of casting a spell, so if he forgoes all of his casting, he generates 9 points (12 for Lord Kroak) plus the 1 point, plus 1d3 if you have any Astrolith Banners. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. It makes sense that the Slann is giving up all spellcasting to conjure more (or more powerful) units.
Just felt like getting 12pts in turns one and two is pretty crazy good. With the changes to base spells and the lack of our own spell lore a slaan isn't actually going to cast 3 spells anyway. And since you want him for your general for universal board denial (something also dropping in usefulness given that the range went up to 30") and for the double teleport you do still bring him. Especially if there are going to be crazy spells running loose. I mean it's not crazy but you're looking at in general 80-120 free points per turn if you use an astrolith.
It sounds like there are major changes to magic coming, and not just the Endless Spells. We'll need to wait and see what all the spells look like before we decide those 3 summoning charges are always worth it.
EnTyme wrote: It sounds like there are major changes to magic coming, and not just the Endless Spells. We'll need to wait and see what all the spells look like before we decide those 3 summoning charges are always worth it.
Obviously bubba. I think I've been pretty clear in my posts that all of this is a vacuum.
My list now doesn't use magic and the Slaan is literally a lazy dispel frog that summons from the 240pt I left him. Free summoning and points back is going to be a solid boon no matter how things change. But so far literally every change has boosted my Seraphon so I worry
I gonna say right off the bat this looks less like smoke and more like "spores" of some kind, possibly something to do
with the upcoming goblins release, could be some new units that continue the fungoid look of the shaman.
I gonna say right off the bat this looks less like smoke and more like "spores" of some kind, possibly something to do
with the upcoming goblins release, could be some new units that continue the fungoid look of the shaman.
It is just being talked about in the Weekly Rumour thread...
Any rumors/speculation yet on a starter set or release date for AoS 2.0? I'm really hoping they'll do some kind of starter set like GW did Dark Imperium last year for 40k 8th.
Red Comet wrote: Any rumors/speculation yet on a starter set or release date for AoS 2.0? I'm really hoping they'll do some kind of starter set like GW did Dark Imperium last year for 40k 8th.
GW haven't officially confirmed a starter set yet it one is definitely coming. In the London gt live stream Robin Cruddace talked about painting the stormcast from the starter set.
It will be stormcast versus nighthaunt and will contain the minis shown in the two faction focus articles.
GW is doing a preview event at the UK games expo on Friday at which they will almost certainly officially unveil the new starter set.
Preorders will be on the 9th or the 16th of June depending on how long the imperial Knights release lasts.
Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.
You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.
Points.
Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….
How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.
Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.
Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?
Hulksmash wrote: Just felt like getting 12pts in turns one and two is pretty crazy good. With the changes to base spells and the lack of our own spell lore a slaan isn't actually going to cast 3 spells anyway. And since you want him for your general for universal board denial (something also dropping in usefulness given that the range went up to 30") and for the double teleport you do still bring him. Especially if there are going to be crazy spells running loose. I mean it's not crazy but you're looking at in general 80-120 free points per turn if you use an astrolith.
So with 49 new spells coming, plus Endless Spells, you're absolutely convinced that a Slaan isn't going to be wanting to cast 3 spells a turn?
Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.
You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.
Points.
Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….
How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.
Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.
Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?
Legions can only summon destroyed units with the summoanble keyword, not new units. Said units can only be brought in through 1 of the 4 gravesites placed at the start of the game. Only the general can bring them back, not other heroes. This is done through a command ability costing a command point. The general must be within 9" of the grave marker he wishes to target. The summoned unit must be placed fully within 9" of said marker, and further than 9" from enemy units. Plenty of restriction there imo.
When you’re writing your army list, you have the option to pick a Realm for your army to be from. Perhaps your Freeguild hail from Hammerhal Aqsha, in Aqshy, or perhaps your Slaves to Darkness raid the distant outskirts of Ghur. As well as providing you with loads of opportunities for roleplaying (not to mention painting and converting), you’ll be able to replace one of your normal Artefact picks with a special artefact from your chosen realm.
Each of the seven Mortal Realms has 6 magical weapons and 6 trinkets, artefacts or pieces of armour to choose from, boasting a range of thematic and unusual effects. We’ve previewed a few of these already in our Faction Focuses.
I love that Beastcaller's Bones are basically the magical equivalent of "lookitthekeys! lookit!"
Each of the seven Mortal Realms has 6 magical weapons and 6 trinkets, artefacts or pieces of armour to choose from, boasting a range of thematic and unusual effects. We’ve previewed a few of these already in our Faction Focuses.
The most interesting bit of that article is that when you write your list, you have the option of choosing what Realm your army will be from. I'm wondering if that choice will somehow influence which Realm the battle will take place in.
So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?
That sounds quite interesting. I've quite an elaborate story about my armies coming from different corners of Chamon, and I really like the idea of having a "bonus" for playing them true to the lore.
That's a good question. My head canon is that my Slaves to Darkness force serves Archaon (they basically worship him as a god) from the All-points but are trying to break through to Azyr and conquer it in his name.
Voss wrote: So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?
Do they just not get to pick stuff?
Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.
Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.
Voss wrote: So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?
Do they just not get to pick stuff?
Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.
Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.
No, that's an example. *If* your SoD army is raiders from ghur, you can pick stuff from there. If its one of archaeon's armies from allpoints, it isn't addressed, same with stormcast or lizards teleporting in from their homes.
Nova_Impero wrote: It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.
EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.
Yeah: Aqshy, Ghyran, Chamon, Ulgu and Hysh, Shyish and Ghur. Azyr has alwasy been barred from the fight.
My guess is that the reasoning here will be that: "sure, your army comes from Azyr/the Varanspire but they've gone native from fighting for quite a while here"
Nova_Impero wrote: It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.
EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.
It is, but they're very clear about 12x7=84 artifacts. So Azyr won't get artifacts, despite the fact that stormcast armies come directly from there. Or perfectly legal pure daemon armies (despite a combined book, you can still field a daemon only army)
Multiple armies can be from somewhere else, its an inherent part of their background. Since this is supposedly about theming armies as much as anything, it leaves those multiple 'somewhere else' options rather out in the cold.
And some combinations seem inherently a little odd. Fireslayers from the life or death realms, for example.
Voss wrote: So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?
Do they just not get to pick stuff?
Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.
Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.
Also from the text above Beastcaller's Bones:
Perhaps, on the other hand, your favourite Aspiring Deathbringer is a monster hunter of renown, with the ability to paralyze beasts with fear. In this case, you could use the Beastcaller’s Bones.
Which means the Aspiring Deathbringer would have to be from the appropriate Realm.
Nova_Impero wrote: It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.
EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.
Seven are the 8 Mortal Realms, minus Azyr. Like from the original 4 pages rules (you can't choose Azyr).
The Realm of Chaos is another dimension, so not a Realm per se (Realm as in "Realmsphere").
It's 6 weapons + 6 artefacts x 7 Realms = 84.
My mistake then.
Lord Kragan wrote:
Nova_Impero wrote: It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.
EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.
Yeah: Aqshy, Ghyran, Chamon, Ulgu and Hysh, Shyish and Ghur. Azyr has alwasy been barred from the fight.
My guess is that the reasoning here will be that: "sure, your army comes from Azyr/the Varanspire but they've gone native from fighting for quite a while here"
Varanspire is in the realm of chaos. The All Points is just an island that connects the realms. I would assume that anything Varanspire is just automatically falls into the chaos ream rules.
Voss wrote: So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?
Do they just not get to pick stuff?
Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.
Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.
Also from the text above Beastcaller's Bones:
Perhaps, on the other hand, your favourite Aspiring Deathbringer is a monster hunter of renown, with the ability to paralyze beasts with fear. In this case, you could use the Beastcaller’s Bones.
Which means the Aspiring Deathbringer would have to be from the appropriate Realm.
I think you and Kan are both misunderstanding. We know that Chaos armies (especially mortals) don't have to come from the realm of Chaos. What if that's where we want them to be from, though? It would be nice to have some rules for themed armies from places like the Allpoints, Realm of Chaos, etc. that aren't on one of the Mortal Realms.
No. No misunderstanding on my part as I was agreeing that a Chaos force can come from one of the seven Mortal Realms if the player so chooses as the article tells us. Neither the article nor myself have said anything about what happens if you decide to have your army come from somewhere other than the seven Mortal Realms (e.g., the Allpoints, etc.).
Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.
You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.
Points.
Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….
How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.
Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.
Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?
Legions can only summon destroyed units with the summoanble keyword, not new units. Said units can only be brought in through 1 of the 4 gravesites placed at the start of the game. Only the general can bring them back, not other heroes. This is done through a command ability costing a command point. The general must be within 9" of the grave marker he wishes to target. The summoned unit must be placed fully within 9" of said marker, and further than 9" from enemy units. Plenty of restriction there imo.
Thank you for that. That does seem fair. Might be very hard to pull off agaisnt a very knowladgble good player.
Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.
You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.
Points.
Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….
How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.
Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.
Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?
Legions can only summon destroyed units with the summoanble keyword, not new units. Said units can only be brought in through 1 of the 4 gravesites placed at the start of the game. Only the general can bring them back, not other heroes. This is done through a command ability costing a command point. The general must be within 9" of the grave marker he wishes to target. The summoned unit must be placed fully within 9" of said marker, and further than 9" from enemy units. Plenty of restriction there imo.
Thank you for that. That does seem fair. Might be very hard to pull off agaisnt a very knowladgble good player.
Unless the opponent is getting free summons of their own it isn't fair at all. Someone else mentioned it before; the tactical effort to block grave sites being used that way still provides a huge advantage to the death player.
Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.
You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.
Points.
Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….
How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.
Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.
Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?
Legions can only summon destroyed units with the summoanble keyword, not new units. Said units can only be brought in through 1 of the 4 gravesites placed at the start of the game. Only the general can bring them back, not other heroes. This is done through a command ability costing a command point. The general must be within 9" of the grave marker he wishes to target. The summoned unit must be placed fully within 9" of said marker, and further than 9" from enemy units. Plenty of restriction there imo.
Thank you for that. That does seem fair. Might be very hard to pull off agaisnt a very knowladgble good player.
Unless the opponent is getting free summons of their own it isn't fair at all. Someone else mentioned it before; the tactical effort to block grave sites being used that way still provides a huge advantage to the death player.
Only need to block one - the one where the general is.
Voss wrote: So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?
Do they just not get to pick stuff?
Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.
Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.
Also from the text above Beastcaller's Bones:
Perhaps, on the other hand, your favourite Aspiring Deathbringer is a monster hunter of renown, with the ability to paralyze beasts with fear. In this case, you could use the Beastcaller’s Bones.
Which means the Aspiring Deathbringer would have to be from the appropriate Realm.
I think you and Kan are both misunderstanding. We know that Chaos armies (especially mortals) don't have to come from the realm of Chaos. What if that's where we want them to be from, though? It would be nice to have some rules for themed armies from places like the Allpoints, Realm of Chaos, etc. that aren't on one of the Mortal Realms.
Agreed.
But after thinking about it, I might work it this way:
My (large) Tzeentch army is commanded by a Gaunt Summoner who is working to not just free the himself and the others from Archaon, but to actively depose and replace him. As such, he operates mostly from his Silver Tower. However, since he has a wide netowrk of forces to draw upon, I could just say that any given force happens to be from whichever realm I'd like on any given day, as he operates across all seven realms as it suits his web of plans. I'm sure a Gaunt Summoner would have access to cults across each of the realms, yes?
That said, that idea doesn't necessarily work for all factions (the aforementioned Fyreslayers, for example), but it's an idea.
But after thinking about it, I might work it this way:
My (large) Tzeentch army is commanded by a Gaunt Summoner who is working to not just free the himself and the others from Archaon, but to actively depose and replace him. As such, he operates mostly from his Silver Tower. However, since he has a wide netowrk of forces to draw upon, I could just say that any given force happens to be from whichever realm I'd like on any given day, as he operates across all seven realms as it suits his web of plans. I'm sure a Gaunt Summoner would have access to cults across each of the realms, yes?
That said, that idea doesn't necessarily work for all factions (the aforementioned Fyreslayers, for example), but it's an idea.
Fyreslayers have lodges in quite a few of the Realms. We know of at least one in Ulgu and one in Shyish, and that's actually in their army book proper.
I think 'active in' is a better term than from. A khorne army that has invaded Ulgu, to bring a slaaneshi demon Prince to heel, could use artifacts discovered in that Realm, especially if they are there long enough.
The stormcast are all from Azyr but most of them spend their time stationed in one of the realms. I think these artifacts are designed to give players more choice and to let them theme their armies if they wish.
In one of the audio dramas there is a Stormcast chamber from the Realm of beasts, that have taken to wearing face tattoos and covering their armour with bones and feathers.
The artifacts give just a touch of rules flavour to make themed armies more than just a paint scheme.
Chikout wrote: I think 'active in' is a better term than from. A khorne army that has invaded Ulgu, to bring a slaaneshi demon Prince to heel, could use artifacts discovered in that Realm, especially if they are there long enough.
The stormcast are all from Azyr but most of them spend their time stationed in one of the realms. I think these artifacts are designed to give players more choice and to let them theme their armies if they wish.
In one of the audio dramas there is a Stormcast chamber from the Realm of beasts, that have taken to wearing face tattoos and covering their armour with bones and feathers.
The artifacts give just a touch of rules flavour to make themed armies more than just a paint scheme.
That's a good way of looking at it. Hopefully, if the systems works out well, we'll end up with a supplement that adds artifacts, spells, etc. themed to those non-realm locations.
Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.
You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.
Points.
Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….
How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.
Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.
Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?
Legions can only summon destroyed units with the summoanble keyword, not new units. Said units can only be brought in through 1 of the 4 gravesites placed at the start of the game. Only the general can bring them back, not other heroes. This is done through a command ability costing a command point. The general must be within 9" of the grave marker he wishes to target. The summoned unit must be placed fully within 9" of said marker, and further than 9" from enemy units. Plenty of restriction there imo.
Thank you for that. That does seem fair. Might be very hard to pull off agaisnt a very knowladgble good player.
Unless the opponent is getting free summons of their own it isn't fair at all. Someone else mentioned it before; the tactical effort to block grave sites being used that way still provides a huge advantage to the death player.
Only need to block one - the one where the general is.
Oh, so the one deepest into enemy territory, blocked off by the bulk of your opponents army, guarded by their most powerful model.
Please no, don't hurl your units into guaranteed death to fail at stopping me from summoning. Whatever shall I do with such a massively advantageous position.
Chikout wrote: I think 'active in' is a better term than from. A khorne army that has invaded Ulgu, to bring a slaaneshi demon Prince to heel, could use artifacts discovered in that Realm, especially if they are there long enough.
The stormcast are all from Azyr but most of them spend their time stationed in one of the realms. I think these artifacts are designed to give players more choice and to let them theme their armies if they wish.
In one of the audio dramas there is a Stormcast chamber from the Realm of beasts, that have taken to wearing face tattoos and covering their armour with bones and feathers.
The artifacts give just a touch of rules flavour to make themed armies more than just a paint scheme.
That's a good way of looking at it. Hopefully, if the systems works out well, we'll end up with a supplement that adds artifacts, spells, etc. themed to those non-realm locations.
I'm more interested in ending up with a supplement that doesn't add a huge amount of unnecessary tedium at the cost of making army balance far worse. We've already failed the tedium part and the army balance isn't looking so good.
I mean....do I throw my zombie dragon vampire lord at you to munch your units or do I not do that so that a skeleton unit can come back really far away from you?
And yeah, you can make a rando necromancer your general, though that's not how I roll. But yes, possible - then again it's easier to kill/snipe a necromancer than a vampire lord on zombie dragon.
Also, if you can leave his units with 1 or 2 dudes left he can't summon them. It will be a game of "How badly can I hurt that unit without wiping it out?"
The legions of nagash summoning ability has enough restrictions that a competent player can completely shut it down. I'd worry a lot more about the tzeentch/sylvaneth/flesh eater ones
Aren73 wrote: I mean....do I throw my zombie dragon vampire lord at you to munch your units or do I not do that so that a skeleton unit can come back really far away from you?
And yeah, you can make a rando necromancer your general, though that's not how I roll. But yes, possible - then again it's easier to kill/snipe a necromancer than a vampire lord on zombie dragon.
Also, if you can leave his units with 1 or 2 dudes left he can't summon them. It will be a game of "How badly can I hurt that unit without wiping it out?"
The legions of nagash summoning ability has enough restrictions that a competent player can completely shut it down. I'd worry a lot more about the tzeentch/sylvaneth/flesh eater ones
I think with "Generals" being far less important thanks to Command Points, you'll see plenty of random Necromancers, etc... as Generals who will happily hang back to send another wave mid-game.
Aren73 wrote: Also, if you can leave his units with 1 or 2 dudes left he can't summon them. It will be a game of "How badly can I hurt that unit without wiping it out?"
Well...given how summonables work..if you leave 2-3 skeletons alive..next turn you'll have 12-13 skeletons running around.
@NewTruthNeomaxim - that's a fair point, you can, then again that means the second wave is still reasonably far back and a single Necromancer shouldn't be that difficult to kill, even with the new shooting rules and once he's dead that's it, no more summoning.
@rayphoton - completely true I'm being silly, of course there is that rule. So now LoN like it when you leave their units with a few guys left AND when you kill them outright...It is a decent boost to the army
Aren73 wrote: @NewTruthNeomaxim - that's a fair point, you can, then again that means the second wave is still reasonably far back and a single Necromancer shouldn't be that difficult to kill, even with the new shooting rules and once he's dead that's it, no more summoning.
@rayphoton - completely true I'm being silly, of course there is that rule. So now LoN like it when you leave their units with a few guys left AND when you kill them outright...It is a decent boost to the army
I feel like people always forget the part where a killed General is immediately replaced with another hero being named General. You're right about the Necro being squishy, but technically they have to remove ALL your heroes before they're 100% safe from you summoning.
, but if it's true, boy oh boy, gotta decide if I'm throwing more sweet money at 
, oh 
