AlexRae wrote: People dont have tactical marines because they are terrible.
And they continue to be terrible.
I'm not saying Tactical Marines are the be-all-end-all troops choice in 40k, but I will say this:
Go play Imperial Guard for 7 years, then come back and tell me Tactical Marines are terrible. For what you pay for, they're actually a pretty excellent troop choice in my opinion, especially when you factor in Combat Squads, and ATSKNF.
My opinion only there, so feel free to disagree it if you wish, but you're not going to change it just as I don't expect to change yours.
AlexRae wrote: People dont have tactical marines because they are terrible.
And they continue to be terrible.
So you throw the models away or what? Assault marine are horrible too.
This is not a valid excuse IMO, but perhaps they sold off all their tacticals since they didn't have need for them. I sincerely doubt people bought their entire army piece by piece. My first instinct when I decided I was going to get into Blood Angels was to get the Blood Angels Battleforce that they had on their website. EVERY army starter box does. I am probably going to kick myself when, after the codex has been out for a bit and I have bought a box or two of BA Tacticals and Sanguinary Guard, that GW releases a boxed set that has everything I just bought and more for less than I just spent. Happened with my Crimson Fists, will happen with BA, mark my words.
Red__Thirst wrote: H.B.M.C.: I never said it wasn't a big deal, I've said, repeatedly, that I feel for the people who's armies were invalidated as they currently have them in this very thread. That said, people need to take a breath and realize their army, with ONE small tweak, will still be able to be run in a very similar fashion to how it currently runs, if not identically. Plug in two 5 man squads of Scouts or Tactical Marines and then build your army. It's that easy. Even if you used 6 squads of Assault Marines, you can put 3 in Fast Attack, and 3 in Elites as Vanguard Veterans. Plug in whatever HQ choice you want, slap some jump pack Death Company in the 4th Elite slot and bingo, you're battleforged.
You're still missing it. There are people. Who have made armies. Full armies. Of Jump Packers. They like. These armies. They put hours. Into. These armies. GW invalidated. Their armies. With. A single. Rule change.
Simply resorting to counts as never has and NEVER WILL be a solution.
Red__Thirst wrote: Lastly, it DID happen to my personal guard army, though not in the exact same way. I had two fully painted vehicles, that GW has even produced a model for in previous editions (Griffons) and are admittedly OOP now, removed from the codex. I had another unit completely changed and rendered useless/obsolete that I previously used in every game. (Why would I ever run Wyrdvane Psykers when I can put a Primaris Psyker on the board at the same mastery level for 10 points less? He's an IC, so he can hide in a squad and have ablative wounds, has an Invulnerable save, has a better stat line, and is still cheaper than a full 10 man squad of Wyrdvane Psykers when upgraded to Mastery Level 2.)
You lost Griffons. That's nothing. My Inquisitorial and Lost & The Damned armies don't exist any more. Losing Griffons isn't in any way the same as losing the entire structure of an army played by a whole host of people for the better part of a decade.
Red__Thirst wrote: I'm trying to look at this objectively and provide counter-points to people screaming that this codex is trash when, in reality and compared to other codex releases so far, it really isn't. At least not in my opinion.
Well most recent Codices have been boring 'return to bland' trash that add nothing and remove heaps, but that aside I'm not actually saying the new Codex is trash. I'm saying that changing the basic structure of BA's to remove the type of army most BA players played for the purposes of selling a new Tactical Squad kit is a dick move, and if the powers that be had any credibility at this point, they should be ashamed of it.
AlexRae wrote: People dont have tactical marines because they are terrible.
And they continue to be terrible.
So you throw the models away or what? .
Given GW plastic is currently more expensive than beluga caviar per ounce, i would imagine most people sell models they don't want, to fund the criminally priced stuff they do want.
I've bene playing BA since second edition, so I have plenty of stuff to make a legal army, what i don't understand is how people cannot see there are legitimate issues here for people. The BA codex since 4th edition has been built around jump pack assault armies. GW themseelves have pushed players in that direction, deliberately.
There is no excuse for then taking that away, None at all.
Changing armies happens with every new codex, but that doesnt mean take things away from the players, it isnt like we are talking about some uber effective army here, BA have been at the bottom of the pile for a long time, why not give them something extra instead of taking things away.
My problem is that its now so bland. Furious charge army wide sounds great, until you push people into more tactical squads, its as useful as a chocolate fire guard for them.
Its a poor design choice, from a company hemorrhaging players and revenue. In fact its stuff like this that explains precisely why they are.
Quick note here, to all the posts saying the codex is too "bland" you have a little over 7 UNIQUE units, plus a psychic discipline, relics, warlord traits, formations and detachments.
Stop using that as an excuse. It's a blatant lie.
Its fine to be mad about the invalidation of your army, but again, just because you *can* build an army focused around one specific thing (assualt marines, nobs, etc) doesn't mean you should....
I feel for ya, but there is always a price for buying into ward's madness.
Crimson Devil wrote: If you build your army to that edition's codex then you will always be screwed over by GW. Happens every time. Build your army with the long view over multiple editions.
I find myself a bit amused and perplexed by my fellow BA players. How do so many of you not have any Tactical marines? They come in every starter box. Even players without a marine army have a squad or two lying around.
Anyway, I'm immune from the change since I built a Company. I have six squads of Tacticals and Two squads of Assault. I rarely if ever don't have a least one Tactical squad on the table. My biggest problem is 7th has killed any desire to play the game. I'll only pick up the codex and wait for 8th I guess.
Thank you.
Have an exalt, sir.
It's boggling to me that people can't see this simple fact. Two 5 man squads of Tactical Marines with bolters, or two five man squads of Scouts armed for hand-to-hand that you use for counter-infiltrate and then use to grab an objective or put pressure on a flank. Scouts with Furious Charge and BP/CCW are a fun option to run in my mind.
Just my thoughts. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Edits: Sleepy spelling errors FTW...
We all understand the concept of minimum troop requirements, so stop acting like we don't. It's doing nothing but making you look like a colossal idiot.
But I can do that with vanilla marines too. And there's a reason why I picked BA as my army and haven't bought a single Tactical Squad so far. I also understand that Scouts are usable. I'm not dense, but it's clearly too hard for you to see that that's not the point. And I'm sure there will be viable ways to run Blood Angels with this new codex, but that's also the case for Necrons and Tyranids, neither of which I'm interested in playing.
And as for needing characters for unlocking DW and RW? Gee, thanks for letting me know, I was totally unaware of that. And that's, like, totally the same because a character on a bike in an army of bikes doesn't, like, fit in at all.
I have about 8,000 points of Blood Angels. I used to have about 2,000 points of Troops. Now I have zero points of Troops. Of my 8,000 points I literally cannot make a legal battle forged army.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You're still missing it. There are people. Who have made armies. Full armies. Of Jump Packers. They like. These armies. They put hours. Into. These armies. GW invalidated. Their armies. With. A single. Rule change.
Simply resorting to counts as never has and NEVER WILL be a solution.
.....
With all due respect, No, dude. You're missing it. The army as it was built in the old codex is invalidated, however that does not mean it can't be run at all as it's built. Their army will be able to be run in a nearly identical fashion to how it was run before. There are enough slots to put Three or more squads of jump pack power armored (Assault) marines in the army and a squad or two of Sanguiniary Guard (if they're there) as well as a squad of Death Company to boot if someone wants to run them and still leave one Elite slot open. There are enough slots in any Battleforged Blood Angels army to put SEVEN,.. Count them, SEVEN jump pack squads in the army in some form or fashion. It may not be exactly as it was before, but it'll be close. Is it going to cover every single combination that a player could have built: No. But it'll cover damn near all of the ones I can come up with within reason.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You lost Griffons. That's nothing. My Inquisitorial and Lost & The Damned armies don't exist any more. Losing Griffons isn't in any way the same as losing the entire structure of an army played by a whole host of people for the better part of a decade.
Not to sound petulant, but this is all I hear when I read that: Oh, woe is me, I lost more than you did so I should be entitled to feel worse.
I respect you H.B.M.C., you make some great points and I generally really enjoy reading what you write on this forum, and also deeply respect your lore knowledge to boot. That said, we both lost something man, the quantity of the loss on your part is greater and by extension I feel for you because of that, I really really do man.
Now, here's the difference: The structure may have changed for Blood Angels, but the models are still able to be used identically in function as they were before, just in a different force organization slot. Sure, you have to put models on the table you didn't before to keep your army battleforged, but ten models that you can purchase for ~$30.00 U.S. new off the shelf (or way less if you trade for them or go to e-bay) is a small price to pay, don't you think? The structure wasn't lost. Had they removed Assault Squads from the codex, then it would have been lost. No, it just shifted back to where it was before in Fast Attack. Where it belongs, in my personal opinion.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well most recent Codices have been boring 'return to bland' trash that add nothing and remove heaps, but that aside I'm not actually saying the new Codex is trash. I'm saying that changing the basic structure of BA's to remove the type of army most BA players played for the purposes of selling a new Tactical Squad kit is a dick move, and if the powers that be had any credibility at this point, they should be ashamed of it.
I respect that opinion, and respectfully disagree with it. Assault Marines should have never been in the Troops slot. They can still be fielded exactly as they were before as Fast Attack and/or Elite (Vanguard Veterans). As for releasing a BA tactical squad with this release to mandate sales and that being a 'dick move', I think you need to perhaps put the Kool-Aid down just a moment.
May I offer a counter-point to that view: Blood Angels never have had a specific tactical box that you could use to build a Blood Angels tactical squad. You had to purchase not only a 'vanilla' tactical squad, but if you wanted some BA specific wargear/armor/shoulderpads/extras, you had to purchase a Death Company box on top of it, even if you didn't NEED any more death company, and had to basically sit on a bunch of unneeded Death Company bits and parts and essentially waste money on them. Where-as now, you can get a Tactical Squad box by itself and build a Blood Angels Tactical Squad without having to rely/purchase anything else beyond that Tactical Squad box. That saves the consumer money in the long run, does it not? At least, that's how I see it, here.
Neronoxx wrote: Quick note here, to all the posts saying the codex is too "bland" you have a little over 7 UNIQUE units, plus a psychic discipline, relics, warlord traits, formations and detachments.
Stop using that as an excuse. It's a blatant lie.
Its fine to be mad about the invalidation of your army, but again, just because you *can* build an army focused around one specific thing (assualt marines, nobs, etc) doesn't mean you should....
I feel for ya, but there is always a price for buying into ward's madness.
We all understand the concept of minimum troop requirements, so stop acting like we don't. It's doing nothing but making you look like a colossal idiot.
But I can do that with vanilla marines too. And there's a reason why I picked BA as my army and haven't bought a single Tactical Squad so far. I also understand that Scouts are usable. I'm not dense, but it's clearly too hard for you to see that that's not the point. And I'm sure there will be viable ways to run Blood Angels with this new codex, but that's also the case for Necrons and Tyranids, neither of which I'm interested in playing.
And as for needing characters for unlocking DW and RW? Gee, thanks for letting me know, I was totally unaware of that. And that's, like, totally the same because a character on a bike in an army of bikes doesn't, like, fit in at all.
I have about 8,000 points of Blood Angels. I used to have about 2,000 points of Troops. Now I have zero points of Troops. Of my 8,000 points I literally cannot make a legal battle forged army.
A.) Thanks for the name calling, makes you look like a stellar human being there, bud . A guy can't try and offer suggestions and draw parallels logically without being called a "colossal idiot" I guess, huh?
B.) Bad choices have consequences. Tactical Squads have been in every Blood Angels army book since Blood Angels were their own codex back in the Angels of Death book of 2nd edition (Great book by the way, lots of neat stuff in there). You chose to not buy any Scouts or Tactical Marines, sorry for that, but it's not too late!! You can rectify this situation. You have the power!
C.) You mean to tell me you have about 8000 points of an army and don't have ONE squad of Tactical Marines or Scouts?
D.) In response to point A.: Don't call a pot black, lest someone gently point out that you yourself are a kettle.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
masquerade81 wrote: Wanna take 60 ASM? Take two CAD and total of 20 scouts as troops and fill both CAD fast spots with assaults. Battle forged... there. stop whining.
Another question: What weapon choises do BA bike squads have? Did they also get the gravgun as a possible special weapon upgrade?
I don't know this for sure, so please don't quote me, but Grav Guns were added to the Blood Angel's Tactical Squad. So, logically I would expect they were also added to the Blood Angel's Bike squad as well.
Just my thoughts on that, hopefully someone will confirm it later.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Neronoxx wrote: Quick note here, to all the posts saying the codex is too "bland" you have a little over 7 UNIQUE units, plus a psychic discipline, relics, warlord traits, formations and detachments.
Stop using that as an excuse. It's a blatant lie.
Its fine to be mad about the invalidation of your army, but again, just because you *can* build an army focused around one specific thing (assualt marines, nobs, etc) doesn't mean you should....
I feel for ya, but there is always a price for buying into ward's madness.
Red__Thirst wrote: Assault Marines should have never been in the Troops slot.
Here's the thing right: I don't disagree with that. At all. The fluff purist in me always hated the idea that BA's could field armies of Assault Marines. They're a Codex Chapter - no more special than Crimson Fists or Raven Guard - and the idea that they had more regular Assault Marines around was just silly (is the 8th Company the BA's main front-line unit or something?). The Blood Angels exist as a separate Codex now because of legacy issues - they're too ingrained now, so they can't just dump them - but by the same token, the "all Assault all the time" thing is also a legacy issue. It's quite improper of GW to simply flip a switch and say "Nope. You play like this now!", and I can't think of a single army off hand that has gone through such an intentional change of play-style (Nidzilla in 4th is perhaps the only example, and it doesn't really fit, because it was a list borne out of bad rules design and a desire to sell as many shiny new Carnifex kits as possible, rather than simply an option that was created and then went away after many, many years of play).
And in respect to the old Angels of Death Codex, go and look at it. It's the same list as Codex Ultramarines + Death Company - Ultra Spec Chars + BA Spec Chars. I think it's a bad example to go "back in my day!", 'cause then we get into "Back in my day me 'Nids 'ad lots of Brood Brothers an' Squigs". Some old things need to stay old things, and some changes, once made, shouldn't be changed back.
We all understand the concept of minimum troop requirements, so stop acting like we don't. It's doing nothing but making you look like a colossal idiot.
But I can do that with vanilla marines too. And there's a reason why I picked BA as my army and haven't bought a single Tactical Squad so far. I also understand that Scouts are usable. I'm not dense, but it's clearly too hard for you to see that that's not the point. And I'm sure there will be viable ways to run Blood Angels with this new codex, but that's also the case for Necrons and Tyranids, neither of which I'm interested in playing.
And as for needing characters for unlocking DW and RW? Gee, thanks for letting me know, I was totally unaware of that. And that's, like, totally the same because a character on a bike in an army of bikes doesn't, like, fit in at all.
I have about 8,000 points of Blood Angels. I used to have about 2,000 points of Troops. Now I have zero points of Troops. Of my 8,000 points I literally cannot make a legal battle forged army.
A.) Thanks for the name calling, makes you look like a stellar human being there, bud . A guy can't try and offer suggestions and draw parallels logically without being called a "colossal idiot" I guess, huh?
B.) Bad choices have consequences. Tactical Squads have been in every Blood Angels army book since Blood Angels were their own codex back in the Angels of Death book of 2nd edition (Great book by the way, lots of neat stuff in there). You chose to not buy any Scouts or Tactical Marines, sorry for that, but it's not too late!! You can rectify this situation. You have the power!
C.) You mean to tell me you have about 8000 points of an army and don't have ONE squad of Tactical Marines or Scouts?
D.) In response to point A.: Don't call a pot black, lest someone gently point out that you yourself are a kettle.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Anyone has the right to be frustrated about the Assault Marines, if you build your army spending hard earned money on an army concept they like to play. Nothing is being accomplished by everyone needing the last word here. We build armies that are small strike forces of large chapters, its not stupid to build all assault marines, the option was there, alot of us took it, and now that its gone, some people feel duped. Reecius on frontlines famous scout army is a great example, and if it were suddenly pulled out from him, he would be upset too.
There will be no statements that will make these people say, oh ok, i guess your right, i have no right to be upset. Remember we all play this gamr for different reasons, but the unifying reason is to have fun. So lets go back to discussions that keep the thread alive, and informative. Thanks for reading this post.
Red__Thirst wrote: Assault Marines should have never been in the Troops slot.
Here's the thing right: I don't disagree with that. At all. The fluff purist in me always hated the idea that BA's could field armies of Assault Marines. They're a Codex Chapter - no more special than Crimson Fists or Raven Guard - and the idea that they had more regular Assault Marines around was just silly (is the 8th Company the BA's main front-line unit or something?). The Blood Angels exist as a separate Codex now because of legacy issues - they're too ingrained now, so they can't just dump them - but by the same token, the "all Assault all the time" thing is also a legacy issue. It's quite improper of GW to simply flip a switch and say "Nope. You play like this now!", and I can't think of a single army off hand that has gone through such an intentional change of play-style (Nidzilla in 4th is perhaps the only example, and it doesn't really fit, because it was a list borne out of bad rules design and a desire to sell as many shiny new Carnifex kits as possible, rather than simply an option that was created and then went away after many, many years of play).
I totally see where you're coming from, but I think it's a matter of dueling legacies, and GW made the right call when they picked which legacy to keep and which one to axe: Do away with the newer (and nonsensical Matt Ward abomination) legacy. Had Blood Angels been the first codex swapped into 6th edition instead of Dark Angels I wonder if people would have been as upset. Food for thought. As for GW making the choice, they were damned if they do, damned if they don't, and I feel like the choice they made was the right one, even if it did have negative consequences.
While Red__Thirst's opinion certainly isn't popular, it's kind of a good point. Blood Angels never should have been pushed towards all jump packs all the time. It grossly distorted the fluff - not because Blood Angels couldn't or wouldn't run an all-assault force, but because it completely skewed people's perception of the army. Vanilla marines have every bit as much a right to run assault squads as troops (exact same codex-adherent company structure, and other codex chapters rely heavily on jump packs, like Raven Guard). Yet they lack that option. Meanwhile the Blood Angels have been twisted into a weird place by years of people assuming that anything but 100% assault squads isn't a Blood Angels army, when in reality ~60% of Blood Angels are tactical marines, same as everyone else. Making their codex a one-trick pony like that did the Blood Angels no favors.
However, I think neutering entire builds is never a good idea. The correct course would be somewhere in the middle - both codexes should have the option to run assault squads to fill the minimum troop requirement, but it should require a captain or chapter master with a jump pack. Likewise, vanilla marines should have the option of running a jump pack honor guard or command squad (because again, the 8th company is a thing). Blood Angels are a codex chapter - with a few unique characters, chapter-wide rules, wargear options, and a unique unit, they could be rolled into the vanilla codex. I don't think it's a bad thing that GW has moved them in that direction, but I do think they should have met in the middle on assault squads (where all codex chapters should be) instead of removing it outright.
Crimson Devil wrote: If you build your army to that edition's codex then you will always be screwed over by GW. Happens every time. Build your army with the long view over multiple editions.
Pretty much this. I play three armies myself (and might add a small BA force as a fourth, now that I have the Deathstorm models), but I never get more than 2 of any one unit. Not only does it make for more balanced lists that generally are more fun to play and play against, you're not that sensitive to codex and edition changes. A nerf to one unit and a buff to another balance each other out.
Every army that relies on spamming a one or two units gets invalidated somewhere along the line, every single time. It should hardly come as a surprise by now.
Anyone has the right to be frustrated about the Assault Marines, if you build your army spending hard earned money on an army concept they like to play. Nothing is being accomplished by everyone needing the last word here. We build armies that are small strike forces of large chapters, its not stupid to build all assault marines, the option was there, alot of us took it, and now that its gone, some people feel duped. Reecius on frontlines famous scout army is a great example, and if it were suddenly pulled out from him, he would be upset too.
There will be no statements that will make these people say, oh ok, i guess your right, i have no right to be upset. Remember we all play this gamr for different reasons, but the unifying reason is to have fun. So lets go back to discussions that keep the thread alive, and informative. Thanks for reading this post.
I never said people don't have a right to feel upset, I'm saying that there's hope and people should focus on that hope and try to move forward once the initial shock and anger fades. The army didn't go away, it changed, and I think in time people will see it changed for the better. That's my opinion anyway.
BA companies have the standard 6:2:2 Tactical:Assaultevastator split.
All marines are trained in the use of jump packs.
The big difference with BA was not that they had more assault marines than other chapters but that their tactical marines suit up with a jump pack more often than anyone else. A subtle difference, true, but a significant one.
"Pay troop tax and use all your FA slots for assault marines" is a hand wave response at best and sneering condescension at worst. What if you have other FA options you'd like to use? What if you've got more than 3 assault squads you've spent so long lovingly converting and painingt?
Just because GW frequently pulls dick moves when it comes to invalidating armies and playstyles doesn't mean you should be any less angry when it happens. Moreover, unless your list is particularly gimmicky (and let's be clear, using assault marines as troops was not that as it allowed at least two - really many more- ways of fielding them: jump pack or in a discounted transport, not to mention it was in place for years and years) you have no way of knowing that the way you've done your army is what's going to get hit next.
- venting protocol complete -
It's all very well harking back to 3rd and saying this is how BA always played, but not everyone can do that. Not everyone has a date of birth or an interest in the hobby that allowed them to experience that. For many the PDF or the 5th 'dex were their first encounter with the Songs of Sanguinius and all they've ever known is jump packs are troops. It's like with bands who change their sound up a bit, the 'right' sound is usually the album of theirs that hooked your interest and anything that diverges from that too much just isn't that band anymore. Nothing stopped you playing BA 'like they ought to be' with Tactical squads in PDF and 5th - now, tacticals weren't suddenly robbed of their FOC slot. So stope castigating more recent players for their fully justified frustration and disappointment, their point of entry and understanding of the army was just as valid as yours and it's been trashed. Of course there are older players who came to love the changes 5th made and are also fully justified in being mightily annoyed at such a fundamentsal alteration (I played in 3rd and I freaking loved the more recent ability to have assault marines as troops).
Honestly I would trade the assaults for the changes made to Dante and Mephiston. I mean do we really want to talk about how bad it can get? Dark Eldar lost their leader just flat out gone. How many years have BA players begged for Mephiston to get IC? Guess what it just happen.
Crimson Devil wrote: If you build your army to that edition's codex then you will always be screwed over by GW. Happens every time. Build your army with the long view over multiple editions.
Pretty much this. I play three armies myself (and might add a small BA force as a fourth, now that I have the Deathstorm models), but I never get more than 2 of any one unit. Not only does it make for more balanced lists that generally are more fun to play and play against, you're not that sensitive to codex and edition changes. A nerf to one unit and a buff to another balance each other out.
Every army that relies on spamming a one or two units gets invalidated somewhere along the line, every single time. It should hardly come as a surprise by now.
Blood Angels players are seriously excited rollback to basically C:SM rehashed with army rules that are basically chapter tactics? Why do they have their own book again? OG players sure are weird. And lol at saying new fluff and names are any dumber in a book about fancy painting vampire marines.
Crimson Devil wrote: If you build your army to that edition's codex then you will always be screwed over by GW. Happens every time. Build your army with the long view over multiple editions.
Well, better not buy Ork Boyz for Orks because they could move them to elite. Let's also not buy Terminators for my DA, who knows what will happen to those. I also own Necrons, should I get rid of my Immortals because they might want to push Warriors as the only Troop-slot?
In short: People are pissed. People have the right to be pissed, because they aren't able to use the majority of their models. I was happy because I knew ASM would get a point-cost reduction. But that is out of the window because I now have to pay a Tactical-tax before I can play those guys. That is NOT why I play Blood Angels and I am waiting for some FW-model or dataslate to fix this gak.
We all understand the concept of minimum troop requirements, so stop acting like we don't. It's doing nothing but making you look like a colossal idiot.
But I can do that with vanilla marines too. And there's a reason why I picked BA as my army and haven't bought a single Tactical Squad so far. I also understand that Scouts are usable. I'm not dense, but it's clearly too hard for you to see that that's not the point. And I'm sure there will be viable ways to run Blood Angels with this new codex, but that's also the case for Necrons and Tyranids, neither of which I'm interested in playing.
And as for needing characters for unlocking DW and RW? Gee, thanks for letting me know, I was totally unaware of that. And that's, like, totally the same because a character on a bike in an army of bikes doesn't, like, fit in at all.
I have about 8,000 points of Blood Angels. I used to have about 2,000 points of Troops. Now I have zero points of Troops. Of my 8,000 points I literally cannot make a legal battle forged army.
A.) Thanks for the name calling, makes you look like a stellar human being there, bud . A guy can't try and offer suggestions and draw parallels logically without being called a "colossal idiot" I guess, huh?
B.) Bad choices have consequences. Tactical Squads have been in every Blood Angels army book since Blood Angels were their own codex back in the Angels of Death book of 2nd edition (Great book by the way, lots of neat stuff in there). You chose to not buy any Scouts or Tactical Marines, sorry for that, but it's not too late!! You can rectify this situation. You have the power!
C.) You mean to tell me you have about 8000 points of an army and don't have ONE squad of Tactical Marines or Scouts?
D.) In response to point A.: Don't call a pot black, lest someone gently point out that you yourself are a kettle.
English is your native language, isn't it? I didn't call you an idiot, I said you're acting like one. Your entire involvement in this thread is based on purposefully misinterpreting people's points and making yourself feel superiour with your paltry straw man arguments. I'm pissed that I no longer have a legal army, and you act like I don't understand that I can have a legal army by just adding some new units.
I think we should all take a breath here and move on before the thread is locked... It's still very early days BA release wise so let's just see what else comes out if anything.
Personally I only started a BA force in 5th because I wanted an alternative to my vanilla mech force. I guess if you played mech BA since the shiny red orange days this is less a shocker.
angelofvengeance wrote: I think we should all take a breath here and move on before the thread is locked...
It's still very early days BA release wise so let's just see what else comes out if anything.
What? And not post our caustic opinions and argue about the smallest most trivial bits of information, clearly you haven't seen DakkaDakka at it's finest.
OT, I guess I'll ask the same question again: Can anyone confirm the status of Land Raiders and deep striking? Or cheap transports for jp-less ASMs or tacticals?
Fireraven wrote: Honestly I would trade the assaults for the changes made to Dante and Mephiston. I mean do we really want to talk about how bad it can get? Dark Eldar lost their leader just flat out gone. How many years have BA players begged for Mephiston to get IC? Guess what it just happen.
Pretty much this. It could have been a lot worse. Mephiston or Asorath could have been Vected out of the Codex. Instead, some of the characters were buffed or made more usable. I am happy Dante is LoW, now I can field other stuff in the HQ slot and still have a place fore him. I don't have that luxury with my Crimson Fists army, if I want to run Pedro, he HAS to take up one of my HQ slots, which means one less spot for a Libby or whatever. Since I am just starting BA, I don't have a giant problem with the Troop Tax. But I do feel for everyone that has had their army invalidated. It felt like when Wizards of the Coast prematurely killed 4th edition and invalidated all the books I had for that.
I am really glad that they are releasing a whole new box of tacticals for BA though. If it was just another army of the same C:SM tacticals, I wouldn't even consider starting the army.
Red__Thirst wrote: Blood Angels should have NEVER had Assault Marines as troops. The only asinine thing that I can see, other than deep striking land raiders... UGH... was Assault Marines as troops choices.
I feel for people who did up the whole jump pack army, but Tactical Squads have been troops choices for WAY longer than assault marines, and still were in the previous crap.. I mean.. Codex.
That said, you can STILL run your all jump pack army as an Unbound list with ZERO issue. So other than losing Objective Secured, you still get all the benefits of your list from the previous list with the added benefit of your average Assault Marine being cheaper.
Forgive me, but I can't see much issue in that, and can't understand all the rage. Your list isn't invalidated, it just has to be played under the unbound format. If you don't like it, then paint up ten Tactical Marines, or Scouts, and run them as your minimal troop choices and keep on trucking.
Just my thoughts.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
casvalremdeikun wrote: Really, you can run a mostly JP army even with Battleforged. Sure, you will have to pay the troops tax (I am hoping for Scouts with an LSS being a thing), but you can have the following:
4x 5-10 Sanguinary Guard/30? Death Company/5-10 Vanguard Veterans
1x Raphen's Death Company
3x Assault Squads
That is a pretty good amount of JP Infantry. Sure, you are going to have to reformulate your army some, but that was kind of expected. And we still could be seeing a Formation or two coming.
Red__Thirst wrote: Assault Marines should have never been in the Troops slot.
Here's the thing right: I don't disagree with that. At all. The fluff purist in me always hated the idea that BA's could field armies of Assault Marines. They're a Codex Chapter - no more special than Crimson Fists or Raven Guard - and the idea that they had more regular Assault Marines around was just silly (is the 8th Company the BA's main front-line unit or something?). The Blood Angels exist as a separate Codex now because of legacy issues - they're too ingrained now, so they can't just dump them - but by the same token, the "all Assault all the time" thing is also a legacy issue. It's quite improper of GW to simply flip a switch and say "Nope. You play like this now!", and I can't think of a single army off hand that has gone through such an intentional change of play-style (Nidzilla in 4th is perhaps the only example, and it doesn't really fit, because it was a list borne out of bad rules design and a desire to sell as many shiny new Carnifex kits as possible, rather than simply an option that was created and then went away after many, many years of play).
And in respect to the old Angels of Death Codex, go and look at it. It's the same list as Codex Ultramarines + Death Company - Ultra Spec Chars + BA Spec Chars. I think it's a bad example to go "back in my day!", 'cause then we get into "Back in my day me 'Nids 'ad lots of Brood Brothers an' Squigs". Some old things need to stay old things, and some changes, once made, shouldn't be changed back.
I do agree completely with Red Thirsts assertion that getting rid of some of the abominable fluff that GW inflicted on Blood Angel players was a good thing.......
Having Special Chapter Codex that are not actually that different from the Codex made this an issue and GW has made up sillier and sillier units to desperately try and differentiate them in order to justify their Special status and release yet more Marines in the self fulfilling prophecy that we make mostly Marines so we sell mostly Marines so we should make mostly Marines
Army Styles not changing - have you seen the new Dark Eldar Codex and the massive changes it has made to the play style and army lists?
This is the way that GW work now (and have done for years) - everyone plays with specific models - "well we have sold enough of them so lets make it so they are not as good and there is a new Shiny" - see many Tau armies without Riptides? See many Eldar armies without Wave Serpents, see Many Grey Knights with Dredd Knights? Guess which models get nerfed next time? Black Templar's are now part of the Marine Codex - major change there especially for all those Black Templar players?
Lots of people said "bad" things would happen based on the previous Codex changes and people still seemed to thinking it was all gong to be great - but its not and its never going to be as good as we want it to be. .....I'd like a hard copy Adepta Sororitas Codex and some new models..............
I am shocked that people did not think that GW was going to screw over many of those with established collections - they really don't care about you - you have bought your models, if you don't want to buy new Terminators, Scouts, Tac Marines and just want to keep you present models - they are indeed saying screw you! Its not a good thing for us but its not a surprise - same as all those with 3 or more Ravagers..............
So I just read something that the Termies are going to be 60 bucks and the new Librarian is going to be 30 (another single model kit). Anyone have any information as to why the price bump for the Terminators?
Thud wrote: We all understand the concept of minimum troop requirements, so stop acting like we don't. It's doing nothing but making you look like a colossal idiot.
But I can do that with vanilla marines too. And there's a reason why I picked BA as my army and haven't bought a single Tactical Squad so far. I also understand that Scouts are usable. I'm not dense, but it's clearly too hard for you to see that that's not the point. And I'm sure there will be viable ways to run Blood Angels with this new codex, but that's also the case for Necrons and Tyranids, neither of which I'm interested in playing.
And as for needing characters for unlocking DW and RW? Gee, thanks for letting me know, I was totally unaware of that. And that's, like, totally the same because a character on a bike in an army of bikes doesn't, like, fit in at all.
I have about 8,000 points of Blood Angels. I used to have about 2,000 points of Troops. Now I have zero points of Troops. Of my 8,000 points I literally cannot make a legal battle forged army.
Not a marines player myself I can still sympathesize with Thud here. The assault troops were kind-of iconic for Blood Angels. Without them they are just normal marines with some special characters and gear. Another two steps down that road and you can just cram them into the generic space marine codex with some chapter tactic and death company as unique units and call it done.
Frankenberry wrote: So I just read something that the Termies are going to be 60 bucks and the new Librarian is going to be 30 (another single model kit). Anyone have any information as to why the price bump for the Terminators?
a) New hotness terminators
b) GW knows how to charge
c) GW knows BA space marines will sell like hot cakes.
Mr Morden wrote: Army Styles not changing - have you seen the new Dark Eldar Codex and the massive changes it has made to the play style and army lists?
Not even slightly the same. The Dark Eldar Codex lost special characters that never had models anyway and the FOC changes those special characters brought about went with them. They didn't take Warriors or Wyches and put them in a completely different slot, invalidating the very structure of the army.
Mr Morden wrote: Army Styles not changing - have you seen the new Dark Eldar Codex and the massive changes it has made to the play style and army lists?
Not even slightly the same. The Dark Eldar Codex lost special characters that never had models anyway and the FOC changes those special characters brought about went with them. They didn't take Warriors or Wyches and put them in a completely different slot, invalidating the very structure of the army.
So you can play a Dark Eldar army in the same way as before - nope totally untrue.
Wracks are no longer able to be taken as troops - how many armies did this before - lots. You can't take Ork Nobs as troops anymore.
Without them they are just normal marines with some special characters and gear. Another two steps down that road and you can just cram them into the generic space marine codex with some chapter tactic and death company as unique units and call it done.
Well it happened to Black Templars which were arguably more divergent than Blood Angels before GW / Matt Ward made his abomination of a Codex. Is a bit of FOC manipulation really a reason for your a specific Codex? Look at the Imperial Guard - absolutely huge differences from Regiment to Regiment - no special Codex's there.
Now they do have lots of "themed units" for good or ill and so its not likely to happen................
Frankenberry wrote: So I just read something that the Termies are going to be 60 bucks and the new Librarian is going to be 30 (another single model kit). Anyone have any information as to why the price bump for the Terminators?
a) New hotness terminators
b) GW knows how to charge
c) GW knows BA space marines will sell like hot cakes.
Aside from the pedantic response, I meant gear related.
Detachment is nice:
Mandatory 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Troops
Optional: as usual, but 3 additioanl Elite (Total 4)
Special rule: +1I when charging, all the army, any turn.
Whilst not what i had planned, i guess it does allow this if taken twice:
HQ Libby Furioso
Libby Furioso
Troops
Scouts
Scouts
Scouts
Scouts
Elites
DC Dread
DC Dread
DC Dread
DC Dread
DC Dread
DC Dread
DC Dread
DC Dread
Assuming Scouts will be similar to vanmilla dex cost. this is a 1750 list.
Mr Morden wrote: Army Styles not changing - have you seen the new Dark Eldar Codex and the massive changes it has made to the play style and army lists?
Not even slightly the same. The Dark Eldar Codex lost special characters that never had models anyway and the FOC changes those special characters brought about went with them. They didn't take Warriors or Wyches and put them in a completely different slot, invalidating the very structure of the army.
It's amazing how many people aren't getting this HBMC. I've had Ork Nobz and Dark Eldar thrown at me as examples when neither of those had examples of straight up Force Org chart changes - all that disappeared was the 'swapping' mechanic that allowed for Unit X or Unit Y to be taken as Troops or whatever.
Still, easy enough to meet minimum troops requirement.
Just take unusued, as of yet un-undercoated Tactical squad from other Marine army. Clean up. Take off any Paladin iconography. Job done. Oh hey, turns out these are old metal 2nd ed. Death Company/BA models. Bonus!
Just means I'll probably end up having to double some squads up to end up with 8 strong Assault squads.
So my Flesh Tearers now stand at...
LOW - Seth
HQ - Librarian
HQ - Sanguinary Priest
Elites - Sternguard in Rhino
Elites - Big blob of Death Company with jet packs.
Elites - Chaplains
Troops - Tactical Squad - Heavy Bolter, Plasma, Sgt. with Power Weapon
Troops - Tactical Squad - Heavy Bolter, Plasma, Sgt. with Power Fist
Troops - Scotts with Snifer Riples.
Fast Attack - 8 Vanguard
Fast Attack - 8 Assault Marines
Fast Attack - 8 Assault Marines
Heavy Support - Devastator Squad
Not much of a change. And oh hey, 8 is a suspicious number...almost Khornate...
Yup, this is kind of a problem. I know several Blood Angels players (myself included) that would be affected by this. My army contains for troops choices: an assault squad and a unit of death company. If is happens, I will have to drop the much better Landspeeder tornadoes I my army and replace them with an extra assault squad, which will severely weaken the competitiveness of my list. I'm no where near the hardest hit by this though. I have a friend that has THREE Sanguinary Priests in his army that will become useless,because his HQ slots are taken up by Dante and a terminator librarian. I can understand Corbulo becoming a HQ choice, but why Sanguinary Priests? It was like when they moved Techmarines to a HQ choice in the space marine codex (they're probably going to become elites in the new BA codex). I think Techmarines should be run like Sanguinary Priests are currently run, with the ability to take three in an elite slot and then kit them out and attach them to units. The thing is, I wouldn't have a problem with this if GW didn't have their heads completely up their a*ses about this. They have to keep new releases secret until like a week before because they rely on impulse buys. If they are going to make large changes like these that can majorly affect how the army is played, at least explain the major changes you are making so that you can give people time to adapt to them and not cause people's armies to turn from formidable lists, to utter sh*t. All I can hope is that this either some prank or that GW's site has had some technical issues.
(BTW, if Death Company are not staying as troops, then DC Dreadnoughts are not going to stay as troops either. It is also rumoured that Furioso Librarians might become HQ choices).
I have a friend that has THREE Sanguinary Priests in his army that will become useless,because his HQ slots are taken up by Dante and a terminator librarian. I can understand Corbulo becoming a HQ choice, but why Sanguinary Priests? It was like when they moved Techmarines to a HQ choice in the space marine codex (they're probably going to become elites in the new BA codex). I think Techmarines should be run like Sanguinary Priests are currently run, with the ability to take three in an elite slot and then kit them out and attach them to units.
Standard GW Codex writing now - - see Ork PainBoyz............... Not sure why anyone thought was going to be different - not saying its good - but its the way GW does it now.
Isn't Dante a LOW now so he does not take up a HQ slot?
So, Heavy Flamers are assault weapons. A BATac squad can put out 3 templates (maybe 4 if the sergeant can take 2 hand flamers), fire 7 bolt pistols and then charge at +1S, and if with a priest +1I and +1WS as well?
SolentSanguine wrote: So, Heavy Flamers are assault weapons. A BATac squad can put out 3 templates (maybe 4 if the sergeant can take 2 hand flamers), fire 7 bolt pistols and then charge at +1S, and if with a priest +1I and +1WS as well?
Assuming there is anything left for them to charge, yes, they could do this and it would be glorious.
You're still missing it. There are people. Who have made armies. Full armies. Of Jump Packers. They like. These armies. They put hours. Into. These armies. GW invalidated. Their armies. With. A single. Rule change.
They can either play unbound or get that single box of tacticals they claim they do not have. No big deal.
You lost Griffons. That's nothing. My Inquisitorial and Lost & The Damned armies don't exist any more. Losing Griffons isn't in any way the same as losing the entire structure of an army played by a whole host of people for the better part of a decade.
Both of the armies you mentioned still exists and are perfectly playable with current rules:
Lost and the Damned Inquisition (Add allies from other imperial codices as needed.)
You're still missing it. There are people. Who have made armies. Full armies. Of Jump Packers. They like. These armies. They put hours. Into. These armies. GW invalidated. Their armies. With. A single. Rule change.
As I said before I am shocked that people did not think that GW was going to screw over many of those with established collections - they really don't care about you/us - you have bought your models, if you don't want to buy new Terminators, Scouts, Tac Marines and just want to keep you present models - they are indeed saying screw you!
Its not a good thing for us but its surely not a surprise - same as all those with 3 or more Ravagers..............
Also as noted its not like they squatted the whole army as you are saying - there is a perfectly usable format in 7th Ed or just requires a single box of tactical or Scouts. Are you really saying everyone thought the new Codex meant no change of any kind to their army and we not going to have to buy something - that's not GW's business model and would make little sense if it was?
Red__Thirst wrote: I'm going to get blasted for this by those in this threadnought, but I really don't give a good-gott-dang, so listen up:
Blood Angels, like EVERY LOYALIST SPACE MARINE ARMY EXCEPT FOR SPACE WOLVES AND BLACK TEMPLARS*, are a Codex Astartes adherent chapter.
*I know there are a handful of others, but they're quite niche and almost never seen
Meaning: ASSAULT MARINES SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN TROOPS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
When the abomination that was the last Blood Angels codex came out, I purchased it, read it, and accepted it for what it was. Pure Bull Gak. All the new, in my humble opinion, STUPID new characters (The Sanguinor??.. Really Matt Ward? REALLY?..), assault marines as troops?? Seriously? (Though that much didn't bother me *quite* as much, it still stuck in my craw pretty hard.) Blood-this, Blood-that, Blood-socks, Blood-pods, Blood-packs, the naming conventions were juvenile at best and stupid at worst. Deep striking Land Raiders. That, alone, nearly made me throw the codex in the trash when I saw it. The chapters most valuable and powerful armored vehicles and you're going to hot drop them off of a transport Thunderhawk?? REALLY Matt Ward? Really?... And the Codex cover art was the worst of any BA Codex to date as well to boot. Ugh...
Blood Angels were my first army, they're my FAVORITE chapter and always have been. You want to know how many games I've played with the (now) old version of the Blood Angels codex? Exactly one. ONE GAME with my favorite army since the last codex came out because I actively didn't enjoy playing the army I love due of shoddy writing and bull-gak that they did to the fluff in the previous version of the BA codex.
This codex, however, I welcome it with open arms. I rejoice in it, and thank the Emperor for finally returning the noble Sons of Sanguinius to their previous, rightful state.
FINALLY, I can look at my army and not feel ashamed at the STUPIDLY juvenile writing. FINALLY, I can run tactical marines again (as I did in my one game under the old codex, and all previous games in the 3rd edition codex) because that's what a Blood Angels army should have in it as their primary troops choices and not have people look at me sideways for not running assault marines as my troops. Yes, I ran Assault Marines as well, but as FAST ATTACK, and no more than 2 of them as my 5th Battle Company force doesn't have more than 2 squads.
I feel for people who painted up an army that has been somewhat/partially or even completely invalidated, but come on, you can't tell me you didn't see this coming. GW has been trending this way with codex writing for YEARS now, ever since 6th edition hit, and pardon me for seeming callous but the writing has been on the wall for a long, long while now. Assault Marines were NEVER going to remain troops.
People screaming angst or butthurt because "The Identity of the Blood Angels has been ruined!!1!1!"... PLEASE.
The Identity of the Blood Angels was ruined when that book full of PURE Gak that Matt Ward gave us was published and released. We're getting our identity back after seven LONG years of it languishing in the land of stupid and poor writing that made me ashamed to count myself as a Blood Angel.
I'm genuinely EXCITED to finish off my Imperial Guard and start rebuilding my Blood Angels. Finally, I can return to playing a Marine Army I like. Finally, I can look with Pride at my balanced force of Tactical Marines, Devastator Marines, and Assault Marines and smile.
Finally, I can once again say:
FOR THE EMPEROR, AND SANGUINIUS!!
Take it easy for now, everyone.
-Red__Thirst-
One Happy Blood Angels player.
P.S. Dante FINALLY has Eternal Warrior!!!!!! They made him the proper Lord of the Host he should have been all along. That fact alone makes me happier than I've been in a long, long while. Good on ya Gee-Dub. Good on ya.
1. White Scars take bikes as troops, why aren't you complaining about that?
2. Grey Knights take terminators as troops, why aren't you complaining about that? (They can also take Psyker terminators with 2 wounds as troops)
3. Dark Angels can take terminators AND bikes as troops, why aren't you complaining about that?
The reason Blood Angels have assault squads as troops is that it is what makes Blood Angels a unique army where you can take unique lists. Basically, Blood Angels take assault squads as troops because it is what prevents them from just being vanilla marines with mental health problems and a nippled armour fetish. Dark Angels have Ravenwing and Deathwing as troops because it is what prevents them from being emo vanilla marines who want to hunt down their traitorous brethren. Grey Knights have terminators and other units as troops because it is what prevents them from being vanilla marines with magic powers. From one Blood Angel player to another, don't you see how you are undermining the the very foundations of the Blood Angels chapter. They are shock assault troops, the jump pack and the Chainsword are just as as much a part of them as their beating heart; every Blood Angel owns and maintains a jump pack and will use it when necessary. They take to the skies like their Primarch before the. They are the sons of Sanguinius. They are the Blood Angels. To take away their wings is absurd
I have a friend that has THREE Sanguinary Priests in his army that will become useless,because his HQ slots are taken up by Dante and a terminator librarian. I can understand Corbulo becoming a HQ choice, but why Sanguinary Priests? It was like when they moved Techmarines to a HQ choice in the space marine codex (they're probably going to become elites in the new BA codex). I think Techmarines should be run like Sanguinary Priests are currently run, with the ability to take three in an elite slot and then kit them out and attach them to units.
Standard GW Codex writing now - - see Ork PainBoyz............... Not sure why anyone thought was going to be different - not saying its good - but its the way GW does it now.
Isn't Dante a LOW now so he does not take up a HQ slot?
I think it was Mephiston that was supposed to be a LOW (SPOILER ALERT: He isn't)
This is why I fear for the Necron update and is why I built a themeless theme so that the next update won't invalidate what I've acquired over the years (unless stuff gets Pariahed).
Blood Angels have always been a Codex chapter with different markings (helmet color denoting the squad type rather than the shoulder pad icon). They had the Thirst but it didn't change their doctrine. Having Assault Marines as troops was fairly silly IMHO and really should never have happened, but I will at least say it was a nice attempt at trying to add variety for the Big Four chapters so they weren't the same thing with different names and/or colors.
White Scars should never have had Bikes as troops, because they are also a Codex chapter. In fact IIRC the entire reason they can was because Paul Sawyer got some custom rules made for them (as they were his army) in 3rd edition when the Chaos Codex 3.0 was released, and it kind of evolved from that. White Scars should always be mobilized, not have bikers as Troops. But again, I get the reasoning and it makes sense when you think of their background as they are heavily influenced by Mongolia and Mongolia was reknown for it's horse archers (or at least that's what Age of Empires 2 taught me). And what's a futuristic version of a horse archer? A guy with a gun riding a bike.
Dark Angels are *NOT* a Codex chapter, which is why they get Terminators as troops (Deathwing) and Bikes as troops (Ravenwing).
Personally I think they should have formations (or detachments, whatever they are called now) for fielding a reserve company instead of a Battle Company. So you should be able to do the 8th Company if you want and have everything on bikes or with jump packs, but then you maybe can't take any vehicles or drop pods or anything. Some kind of counter-balance.
As with everything else GW does, I like how the Blood Angels look (and have for 20 years) but the price is going to mean that I won't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
As a predominantly DA player, I am confused about dataslates and formations. We've never had one after all. If you just take the DC dread from the Dearhstorm box by itself, does it count as a troop? I've been on the fence about picking up BA as an allied faction, but I don't want/need Tacticals. I thought that if I wanted to use the units from the box set formation they were all or nothing unless they we're used in their codex slot as part of a larger force. An IC, DC Dread, and DC squad would work nicely, but I didn't think it was legal.
I took up Blood Angels BECAUSE I don't want to run crappy tacticals or scouts like almost every other chapter. Even if it's not a great list, I loved having full jump pack lists. I specifically came to BA because of the assault marines.
Also, the chapter has 200 assault marines and only 100 scouts at full strength, why are the scouts troops?
Thankfully, I've at least accidentally picked up some tacticals here and there, so I can actually field something legal with my 18k of models, but I can totally understand people not having any tacticals or scouts in their collections. And yay for furious charge tacticals? Psh. Worthless.
They may not have started with ASM troops, but they had them for the better part of a decade. That's the equivalent of getting halfway through a trip east across the world, and then turning around halfway and deciding to go the other way instead. It's dumb, and it's completely logical that it would make people upset. They have every right to be when the carpet is pulled out from underneath them by a greedy, short-sighted, moronically-ran company.
Like I said, this one change is enough to make me purposely avoid giving GW any money for anything. If I want a model, I'll get it second hand. If I want rules, then I'll "obtain them."
If they want the money out of my wallet, they have to actually try to make me a satisfied customer, and pulling a bait and switch is NOT the way to do that.
Probably gonna house rule ASM into troops for BA still anyhow, it's just dumb how much house ruling we have to do because the designers are incredibly unqualified for their jobs.
Red__Thirst wrote: I'm going to get blasted for this by those in this threadnought, but I really don't give a good-gott-dang, so listen up:
Blood Angels, like EVERY LOYALIST SPACE MARINE ARMY EXCEPT FOR SPACE WOLVES AND BLACK TEMPLARS*, are a Codex Astartes adherent chapter.
*I know there are a handful of others, but they're quite niche and almost never seen
Meaning: ASSAULT MARINES SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN TROOPS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
When the abomination that was the last Blood Angels codex came out, I purchased it, read it, and accepted it for what it was. Pure Bull Gak. All the new, in my humble opinion, STUPID new characters (The Sanguinor??.. Really Matt Ward? REALLY?..), assault marines as troops?? Seriously? (Though that much didn't bother me *quite* as much, it still stuck in my craw pretty hard.) Blood-this, Blood-that, Blood-socks, Blood-pods, Blood-packs, the naming conventions were juvenile at best and stupid at worst. Deep striking Land Raiders. That, alone, nearly made me throw the codex in the trash when I saw it. The chapters most valuable and powerful armored vehicles and you're going to hot drop them off of a transport Thunderhawk?? REALLY Matt Ward? Really?... And the Codex cover art was the worst of any BA Codex to date as well to boot. Ugh...
Blood Angels were my first army, they're my FAVORITE chapter and always have been. You want to know how many games I've played with the (now) old version of the Blood Angels codex? Exactly one. ONE GAME with my favorite army since the last codex came out because I actively didn't enjoy playing the army I love due of shoddy writing and bull-gak that they did to the fluff in the previous version of the BA codex.
This codex, however, I welcome it with open arms. I rejoice in it, and thank the Emperor for finally returning the noble Sons of Sanguinius to their previous, rightful state.
FINALLY, I can look at my army and not feel ashamed at the STUPIDLY juvenile writing. FINALLY, I can run tactical marines again (as I did in my one game under the old codex, and all previous games in the 3rd edition codex) because that's what a Blood Angels army should have in it as their primary troops choices and not have people look at me sideways for not running assault marines as my troops. Yes, I ran Assault Marines as well, but as FAST ATTACK, and no more than 2 of them as my 5th Battle Company force doesn't have more than 2 squads.
I feel for people who painted up an army that has been somewhat/partially or even completely invalidated, but come on, you can't tell me you didn't see this coming. GW has been trending this way with codex writing for YEARS now, ever since 6th edition hit, and pardon me for seeming callous but the writing has been on the wall for a long, long while now. Assault Marines were NEVER going to remain troops.
People screaming angst or butthurt because "The Identity of the Blood Angels has been ruined!!1!1!"... PLEASE.
The Identity of the Blood Angels was ruined when that book full of PURE Gak that Matt Ward gave us was published and released. We're getting our identity back after seven LONG years of it languishing in the land of stupid and poor writing that made me ashamed to count myself as a Blood Angel.
I'm genuinely EXCITED to finish off my Imperial Guard and start rebuilding my Blood Angels. Finally, I can return to playing a Marine Army I like. Finally, I can look with Pride at my balanced force of Tactical Marines, Devastator Marines, and Assault Marines and smile.
Finally, I can once again say:
FOR THE EMPEROR, AND SANGUINIUS!!
Take it easy for now, everyone.
-Red__Thirst-
One Happy Blood Angels player.
P.S. Dante FINALLY has Eternal Warrior!!!!!! They made him the proper Lord of the Host he should have been all along. That fact alone makes me happier than I've been in a long, long while. Good on ya Gee-Dub. Good on ya.
1. White Scars take bikes as troops, why aren't you complaining about that?
2. Grey Knights take terminators as troops, why aren't you complaining about that? (They can also take Psyker terminators with 2 wounds as troops)
3. Dark Angels can take terminators AND bikes as troops, why aren't you complaining about that?
The reason Blood Angels have assault squads as troops is that it is what makes Blood Angels a unique army where you can take unique lists. Basically, Blood Angels take assault squads as troops because it is what prevents them from just being vanilla marines with mental health problems and a nippled armour fetish. Dark Angels have Ravenwing and Deathwing as troops because it is what prevents them from being emo vanilla marines who want to hunt down their traitorous brethren. Grey Knights have terminators and other units as troops because it is what prevents them from being vanilla marines with magic powers. From one Blood Angel player to another, don't you see how you are undermining the the very foundations of the Blood Angels chapter. They are shock assault troops, the jump pack and the Chainsword are just as as much a part of them as their beating heart; every Blood Angel owns and maintains a jump pack and will use it when necessary. They take to the skies like their Primarch before the. They are the sons of Sanguinius. They are the Blood Angels. To take away their wings is absurd
I couldn´t say it better. Some people just want to take positively something that SIMPLY makes our Codex far worse than it already was, and not only that, BA lose what it made them unique, and uniqueness is why people choose one chapter over another.
Whats next?
"BA SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAD FAST VEHICLES"?
"BA SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAD AV13 BAAL PREDS AND FURIOSOS"?
This is why I fear for the Necron update and is why I built a themeless theme so that the next update won't invalidate what I've acquired over the years (unless stuff gets Pariahed).
Why would he be smiling, since he is no longer employed by GW and likely didn't have a hand in this Codex. And really, the swing back around to Tacticals over Assaults is only going to benefit the current regime.
In other words, someone is making money, and it ain't him.
Word has it that Sanguinary priest can no longer take terminator armour :-( there goes my cool and expensively put together conversion. Thanks GW you really know how to spoil your loyal customers and make them happy.
I couldn´t say it better. Some people just want to take positively something that SIMPLY makes our Codex far worse than it already was, and not only that, BA lose what it made them unique, and uniqueness is why people choose one chapter over another.
Whats next?
"BA SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAD FAST VEHICLES"?
"BA SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAD AV13 BAAL PREDS AND FURIOSOS"?
But that's the thing isn't it? BA HAVE Fast Vehicles, BAAL Preds and Furiosos while they always remained with their troops Codex compliant.
They are NOT vanilla marines in any way, shape or form, they have have LOADS of differences.
I understand people are mad with the removal of Assault Marines as troops, but c'mon, calling them Vanilla marines because of that is ridiculous: Death Company, Furiosos, Librarian Dreds, Baal's, Fast Vehicles, Sanguinary Guard, unique HQs, rules, you are anything but vanilla marines.
I couldn´t say it better. Some people just want to take positively something that SIMPLY makes our Codex far worse than it already was, and not only that, BA lose what it made them unique, and uniqueness is why people choose one chapter over another.
Whats next?
"BA SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAD FAST VEHICLES"?
"BA SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAD AV13 BAAL PREDS AND FURIOSOS"?
What were BAs then when they didn't have Assault as Troops, before The Matt Wardizing?
Were they unique or not? Were they vanillas? Were they in the same codex as the rest of the Codex following marines?
I wasn't playing by then as I only just got my BA army on the 7th ed but I still think we're dooming and glooming a bit too much. Yes loosing Assault Marines as Troops is a kick in the ass, and for those that for whatever reason don't have any tacticals, it sucks. BUT saying that since that has happened then they've lost their uniqueness is too much imho...
WisdomLS wrote: Word has it that Sanguinary priest can no longer take terminator armour :-( there goes my cool and expensively put together conversion. Thanks GW you really know how to spoil your loyal customers and make them happy.
Got a source for this? I can believe it, as there's not a model, but it seems stupid when every other HQ choice presumably has full armoury access for PA, TDA and AA.
Probably gonna house rule ASM into troops for BA still anyhow, it's just dumb how much house ruling we have to do because the designers are incredibly unqualified for their jobs.
House Ruling does seem to be the way forward - as long as everyone gets to do it and not just to boost one army
WisdomLS wrote: Word has it that Sanguinary priest can no longer take terminator armour :-( there goes my cool and expensively put together conversion. Thanks GW you really know how to spoil your loyal customers and make them happy.
Got a source for this? I can believe it, as there's not a model, but it seems stupid when every other HQ choice presumably has full armoury access for PA, TDA and AA.
If there is no model for it - that option may be dead
Just wanted to pop in and remind everyone that I was right. Everyone ignored me or dismissed me as just being "negative" when I tried to warn you that a BA update wouldn't be what you expected, you ignored the obvious trend with every army update ever since Orks came out, but not only did the codex get the predictable "7th edition sidegrade/blandification treatment", it got kicked way harder in the nuts than even I was expecting.
Thud wrote: We all understand the concept of minimum troop requirements, so stop acting like we don't. It's doing nothing but making you look like a colossal idiot.
But I can do that with vanilla marines too. And there's a reason why I picked BA as my army and haven't bought a single Tactical Squad so far. I also understand that Scouts are usable. I'm not dense, but it's clearly too hard for you to see that that's not the point. And I'm sure there will be viable ways to run Blood Angels with this new codex, but that's also the case for Necrons and Tyranids, neither of which I'm interested in playing.
And as for needing characters for unlocking DW and RW? Gee, thanks for letting me know, I was totally unaware of that. And that's, like, totally the same because a character on a bike in an army of bikes doesn't, like, fit in at all.
I have about 8,000 points of Blood Angels. I used to have about 2,000 points of Troops. Now I have zero points of Troops. Of my 8,000 points I literally cannot make a legal battle forged army.
Not a marines player myself I can still sympathesize with Thud here. The assault troops were kind-of iconic for Blood Angels. Without them they are just normal marines with some special characters and gear. Another two steps down that road and you can just cram them into the generic space marine codex with some chapter tactic and death company as unique units and call it done.
Completely agree. I'm still kicking myself for falling into this trap with grey knights, where they invalidated my army so I went and bought more... I'm finding it very hard to be a GW fan boy these days. White dwarf used to be a font of hobby knowledge as well... And now the internet is generally so much better. GW have not adapted well, and by the looks of it, will not do
WisdomLS wrote: Word has it that Sanguinary priest can no longer take terminator armour :-( there goes my cool and expensively put together conversion. Thanks GW you really know how to spoil your loyal customers and make them happy.
Got a source for this? I can believe it, as there's not a model, but it seems stupid when every other HQ choice presumably has full armoury access for PA, TDA and AA.
I read it on Faeit's rules roundup so no more reliable than all the other rumors we're discussing.
Well I am down to few questions...
1] Did Scouts get the Land Speeder Storm?
2] Does Honor Squad/Command Squad get jump Packs?
3] What is up with the Glaives?
Beyond that it looks like this might be my set up: Dante
Sanguinary Priest [JP] x2
Honor Guar [PJ]
Tactical Squad [Flamer/Heavy Flamer] x2-4
Assault Squad x2
Stormraven
I might add a pair of Baal Predators and a few Dreads.
Crimson Devil wrote: If you build your army to that edition's codex then you will always be screwed over by GW. Happens every time. Build your army with the long view over multiple editions.
I find myself a bit amused and perplexed by my fellow BA players. How do so many of you not have any Tactical marines? They come in every starter box. Even players without a marine army have a squad or two lying around.
Anyway, I'm immune from the change since I built a Company. I have six squads of Tacticals and Two squads of Assault. I rarely if ever don't have a least one Tactical squad on the table. My biggest problem is 7th has killed any desire to play the game. I'll only pick up the codex and wait for 8th I guess.
Thank you.
Have an exalt, sir.
It's boggling to me that people can't see this simple fact. Two 5 man squads of Tactical Marines with bolters, or two five man squads of Scouts armed for hand-to-hand that you use for counter-infiltrate and then use to grab an objective or put pressure on a flank. Scouts with Furious Charge and BP/CCW are a fun option to run in my mind.
Just my thoughts. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Edits: Sleepy spelling errors FTW...
You know what else is mind boggling ? That you have no idea most tournaments are battle forged single CAD only ( double source ) . Mainly because of how broken the rule set is for competitive play overall with all armies .
Since you clearly work for GW please tell your buddies that next time they make a codex let actual players make it and not modelers and accountants .
Everyone was all up in arms about SW when the book released. The rumors had it nerfed into the ground and everyone was crying.
The book comes out, SW models hit ebay, then overnight SW become a competitive choice.
Calm your nurps guys. I know 4/5 of you love nothing more than feverishly typing flames, complaints and cries, but it wont do anything. Save yourself the energy of typing out how you are going to go melt your BA army and be patient.
Worst case is that you book sucks as bad as it already does. It will be playable, the sun will still rise, and you will still roll dice.
Now, anyone know if any of those fancy psychic powers are limited to buffing BA only? Or if the sang priest buffs are BA only, like the SW banner states it only works on SW. I really like a lot of what I am seeing for an allied detachment.
Crimson Devil wrote: If you build your army to that edition's codex then you will always be screwed over by GW. Happens every time. Build your army with the long view over multiple editions.
I find myself a bit amused and perplexed by my fellow BA players. How do so many of you not have any Tactical marines? They come in every starter box. Even players without a marine army have a squad or two lying around.
Anyway, I'm immune from the change since I built a Company. I have six squads of Tacticals and Two squads of Assault. I rarely if ever don't have a least one Tactical squad on the table. My biggest problem is 7th has killed any desire to play the game. I'll only pick up the codex and wait for 8th I guess.
Thank you.
Have an exalt, sir.
It's boggling to me that people can't see this simple fact. Two 5 man squads of Tactical Marines with bolters, or two five man squads of Scouts armed for hand-to-hand that you use for counter-infiltrate and then use to grab an objective or put pressure on a flank. Scouts with Furious Charge and BP/CCW are a fun option to run in my mind.
Just my thoughts. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Edits: Sleepy spelling errors FTW...
You know what else is mind boggling ? That you have no idea most tournaments are battle forged single CAD only ( double source ) . Mainly because of how broken the rule set is for competitive play overall with all armies .
Since you clearly work for GW please tell your buddies that next time they make a codex let actual players make it and not modelers and accountants .
GAMES WORKSHOP DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE TOURNAMENT SCENE! They do not care. 40k is a game, for fun, for 3 hours to kill with buddies. Not to win money, not to win a free painting set and certainly not to win. Its 3 hours drinking beer, eating pretzels and just having a laugh with friends. That is how GW see it, no other way. They are players themselves. They have a way they want to play the game and write the rules. The only thing you are right about is the accountants, who have obviously made this FOC change change.
Looking forward to more unique BA builds. Honestly, I'm excited.
Same here, I just need a little information before I can real sit down and plan things.
However we need to all remember this is all part of a Codex Release.
"No, they just made my Army Completely Worthless!"
A few Days, Weeks or Months Later."
"Well my Army is doing much better now."
Over all it looks to be what we are all Really Wanting: An Fair and Balance Codex
gwarsh41 wrote: Everyone was all up in arms about SW when the book released. The rumors had it nerfed into the ground and everyone was crying. The book comes out, SW models hit ebay, then overnight SW become a competitive choice.
Calm your nurps guys. I know 4/5 of you love nothing more than feverishly typing flames, complaints and cries, but it wont do anything. Save yourself the energy of typing out how you are going to go melt your BA army and be patient.
Worst case is that you book sucks as bad as it already does. It will be playable, the sun will still rise, and you will still roll dice.
Great troll. 10/10. Would straw man again.
No one is complaining about competitiveness. No one is whining about being nerfed into the ground.
If words are too hard for you to understand, I have MSPaint and can draw you a nice picture of what people are complaining about.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Would people have been okay if Asorath granted DC Troops or if you run a Captain with a JP, Assault Squads are Troops?
Which is the simplest, most obvious choice to give players a fluffy way to keep playing their army.
Same goes for any marine chapter, really.
Still hurts the brain how GW can't quite figure this out. We know they have this idea from other books, but extending it to other fluffy options still eludes them. Frustrating to watch.
Keep your eyes peeled on the proposed rules forum for people to hash this out better.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Would people have been okay if Asorath granted DC Troops or if you run a Captain with a JP, Assault Squads are Troops?
Yes that would have been Great, but The Days Unlocking Units are now Dead, or at least I have grown to except that.
When they Released the next Codex: Space Marines, that Unlocking Bikes as troops is dead and Gone, just like Deathwing/Ravenwing and Chaos Lords Unlocking the Special Units like Zerkers and Plague Marines.
Those will most likely be replaced with Formations and/or Detachments.
It wasn't Ward that made BA Assault Marines troops. It was Jervis in the 2007 WD dex. Even then you didn't see them much because they couldn't take special weapons (best they could do was the 15 point plasma pistol) and they couldn't trade their packs for Razorbacks, just Rhinos.
So back then I would run three 5-man Tacticals in Razorbacks, a big DC with Lemartes, Baal Preds, and some drop pod furiosos. Sometimes I'd run veterans and /or an honor guard with Dante. I did experiment with jumping assault squads on occasion, but they just weren't very good. Outside of DC, the only furious charge buff came from Corbulo who couldn't take a jump pack. I also tried running my assault squads on foot in rhinos. They were cheaper than tacticals that way, but not very useful apart from camping an objective which was hardly evocative of the fluff.
I'm less bothered by the loss of Assault Marines in troops, than I am about the other FOC swaps like moving DC to Elite. I think they should have remained troops or put outside the FOC. The elite slot is too crowded now.
The loss of the all jumper army hurts a little, but for me 6th had already killed that with the change to reserves.
Anyway, as regards the fluff of the chapter composition and how it's presented on the tabletop, I think one of big things that makes BA appear jumper heavy is that the 1st company vets like to roll out as vanguards more frequently than as terminators. It's not just that they always send the 8th company out on a mission.
1: Dark Angels pretty much are a codex force. They have a company with lots of Terminators and another with lots of bikes and due to their fame GW happened to write rules for them.
2: Blood Angels probably dont NEED Assault Marines as troops, but then by that logic no one needs FOC slot changes or special rules to make their Bikes/Assault Marines/Devastators/Terminators etc different.
It does suck that GW left the BA players with only Tacs and Scouts (which I fething hope get Land Speeder Storms otherwise they're god awful still) to choose from in the troops section. Objective Secured IS important. Unbound ISNT viable in pick up games or tournament play. GW dont even allow it themselves at their events.
I am sure there will be formations and dataslates that you can bolt together to make competitve using another book as a crutch, just like Champions Of Fenris + Codex Marine Bikes, or Grey Knight Nemesis Formation + Codex Marine Grav Cents or Ravenwing bikes plus Space Wolf Thunderwolves etc etc
But no one wants to be forced to play a certain way. The beauty of the Vanilla dex is the versatility in it and the number of different competitve builds within. The fact you can use so many of the toys and have a coherent competitive force.
Tactical Marines with furious charge is a terrible combination. Assault Marines actually fulfilled a nice role and it only needed a bit of tweaking in prices of other units to make BA a good book. Now it's starting from the ground up again with some pretty uninspiring building blocks.
And many MANY players with armies they can't use anymore.
But GW putting Assault Squads as troops for a decade, making not one, but 2 specific boxes of models with jetpacks for the blood angels (and the only chapter specific ones at that for BA) and writing endless texts and fluff stating how much the love using jump packs does.
That is the problem. Its no good blaming players for having armies full of assault troops, GW directed them to do precisely that. It is asinine for those that wish to , for some reason, defend this move by GW to blame the people affected by it.
I wish GW would pick up my rule proposal for space marine armies personally.
For every two full space marine tactical squads, one devastator or assault squad may become a troop choice. It would make certain squads more viable and/or effective without too much of a boost, whilst unlocking further fast attack and dev squads if that tickles your fancy, and finally, it's fluffy.
The same could be done for most armies one way or another, a full imperial guard infantry platoon could allow 1 standard lemun russ to become troops etc etc.
Just plain rewarding more use of troops whilst letting players fill out the rest of the lists with more of their desired choices in other categories.
Anpu42 wrote: Well I am down to few questions...
1] Did Scouts get the Land Speeder Storm?
2] Does Honor Squad/Command Squad get jump Packs?
3] What is up with the Glaives?
Beyond that it looks like this might be my set up: Dante
Sanguinary Priest [JP] x2
Honor Guar [PJ]
Tactical Squad [Flamer/Heavy Flamer] x2-4
Assault Squad x2
Stormraven
I might add a pair of Baal Predators and a few Dreads.
Except based on what has been posted honor guard are no longer in the codex . The person originally leaking the info said that .
Anpu42 wrote: Well I am down to few questions...
1] Did Scouts get the Land Speeder Storm?
2] Does Honor Squad/Command Squad get jump Packs?
3] What is up with the Glaives?
Beyond that it looks like this might be my set up: Dante
Sanguinary Priest [JP] x2
Honor Guar [PJ]
Tactical Squad [Flamer/Heavy Flamer] x2-4
Assault Squad x2
Stormraven
I might add a pair of Baal Predators and a few Dreads.
Except based on what has been posted honor guard are no longer in the codex . The person originally leaking the info said that .
Honor Guard/Command Squad, Same thing now and yes I knew that.
Anpu42 wrote: Well I am down to few questions...
1] Did Scouts get the Land Speeder Storm?
2] Does Honor Squad/Command Squad get jump Packs?
3] What is up with the Glaives?
Beyond that it looks like this might be my set up: Dante
Sanguinary Priest [JP] x2
Honor Guar [PJ]
Tactical Squad [Flamer/Heavy Flamer] x2-4
Assault Squad x2
Stormraven
I might add a pair of Baal Predators and a few Dreads.
Except based on what has been posted honor guard are no longer in the codex . The person originally leaking the info said that .
I am confused about the extra elite slot? What supposedly grants it?
It does kind of feel like GW have hamstrung themselves with so many elites choices for the army.
DC/Dreads/Sang Guard, Sternguard/ Vanguard Vets/ Normal Terminators/ assault Terminators...there are just far too many choices to fit in.
If anything removing DC from troops is far more of an issue to me than the removal of assault squads, and seems strange given the reduction in WS. But fluff wise I guess I can see having the core of your army made up by units on the verge of death and beset by madness is a bit daft.
I am new to BA with this release I am new to BA with this release but do feel the pain of those with armies that no have their whole essence and playing strategy changed.
Because I prefer my Flesh Tearers to have the barest hints of their lineage, due to the fact that their chapter is so heavily depleted and constantly in the front line that it doesn't seem reasonable to be littered with Blood Angel iconography and bling.
Even the Death Company kit was somewhat viable - the odd bit here and there, avoiding the blatant blood angels icons of using it very sparingly where appropriate....
But the tactical squad...littered with it.
The Terminator squad...littered with it.
Looking forward to seeing these Archangels 1st Company detachments, traits, relics, datasheets, etc. Maybe they'll ease some of my concern over the codex.
Seriously though, as someone with one of the larger Genestealer Cult collections that you'll find, I don't like seeing people's armies squatted or forced to endure radical changes. It sucks and hurts because this hobby demands that we pour so much time into our armies.
However, in this case my sympathy also has its limits. The jump pack assault marines that poeple seem fixated on haven't been invalidated or even nerfed. They're getting *better* -- they're just operating from a different spot of an org chart which is less relevant in 7th edition than it's ever been. Yes, there's the loss of ObSec, but that rule has seemed less and less important every day since 7th was released.
With the 7th edition points decreases that are sure to come, I don't think it's going to be hard for someone with an "all" jump pack army to fit in a couple Scout squads. And that really doesn't represent a major outlay of cash either in this subscription-based hobby that we play. Hell, I'd probably rejigger things and take a hard look at tacticals in drop pods as my troops, but that's just me.
Anyway, I know that a hobbyist can fall into the trap of thinking that the world revolves around "ME" and "MY" mandollies, but the truth of the hobby is that other people have endured much more significant changes to their armies over the years than anything I'm seeing here. This stuff tends to be much more mild on the SM side...try being a xenos player sometime.
Again, I do understand a certain level of frustration, but there's some wild overreaction going on here (not that it hasn't happened with every new codex release ever on Dakka...*cough* Drew Riggio *cough*). And the significant lack of perspective (IMO) revealed by these reactions ultimately doesn't leave me terribly sympathetic.
Edit: In other news, the Exterminatus book looks great. Our club is going to have a lot of fun with the Shield of Baal campaign stuff, I think.
Might pick the new Shield of Baal book up - really liked the first one - but I bet the hard back will be sold out and on ebay quickly :(
Nice to the Adepta Sororitas are still in it - even if they couldn't be bothered to give them anything (despite being so heavily featured in the 1st book) unlike the Necrons and Blood Angels - who get loads of stuff and seem to be getting a formation on the jump pack company which should be good for players here who are about to throw their entire collection away?
I'll probably be grabbing a copy the newest Shield of Baal. Assuming my local store hasn't gotten rid of my copy of of the first one I keep meaning to pick up.
Sidstyler wrote: Just wanted to pop in and remind everyone that I was right. Everyone ignored me or dismissed me as just being "negative" when I tried to warn you that a BA update wouldn't be what you expected, you ignored the obvious trend with every army update ever since Orks came out, but not only did the codex get the predictable "7th edition sidegrade/blandification treatment", it got kicked way harder in the nuts than even I was expecting.
Yes I want a cookie.
TAKE IT! *begins throwing cookies ninja star style*
Who cares about Troops? 99% of the time, you're going to use the BA Detachment that gives you +1 Init on the charge rather than taking a Combined Arms detachment, so you're not getting Obsec for your compulsory troops anyway.
We're back in 4th edition. Troops are a tax again. Take 2 squads of 5 Scouts, chuck them into reserve, and spend the rest of your points on stuff that's going to run forward and actually kill stuff.
That new Shield of Baal book is making my wallet cry because I freakin' loved the first one! And I see some Sororitas artwork in there so I hope they still play a role on it!
Oh dear, I really don't want to miss the hardcover while I'm at it.
AlexRae wrote: People dont have tactical marines because they are terrible.
And they continue to be terrible.
So you throw the models away or what? .
Given GW plastic is currently more expensive than beluga caviar per ounce, i would imagine most people sell models they don't want, to fund the criminally priced stuff they do want.
I've bene playing BA since second edition, so I have plenty of stuff to make a legal army, what i don't understand is how people cannot see there are legitimate issues here for people. The BA codex since 4th edition has been built around jump pack assault armies. GW themseelves have pushed players in that direction, deliberately.
There is no excuse for then taking that away, None at all.
Changing armies happens with every new codex, but that doesnt mean take things away from the players, it isnt like we are talking about some uber effective army here, BA have been at the bottom of the pile for a long time, why not give them something extra instead of taking things away.
My problem is that its now so bland. Furious charge army wide sounds great, until you push people into more tactical squads, its as useful as a chocolate fire guard for them.
Its a poor design choice, from a company hemorrhaging players and revenue. In fact its stuff like this that explains precisely why they are.
I'm not disputing this is a dick move by GW. If anything it is a signature move. They do this gak to someone every edition change. GW is not and never will our friend. They have too much contempt for their customer base. This is how they operate and I'm surprise so few of my fellow BA players didn't protect themselves.
Crimson Devil wrote: If you build your army to that edition's codex then you will always be screwed over by GW. Happens every time. Build your army with the long view over multiple editions.
Well, better not buy Ork Boyz for Orks because they could move them to elite.
Let's also not buy Terminators for my DA, who knows what will happen to those.
I also own Necrons, should I get rid of my Immortals because they might want to push Warriors as the only Troop-slot?
In short: People are pissed.
People have the right to be pissed, because they aren't able to use the majority of their models.
I was happy because I knew ASM would get a point-cost reduction.
But that is out of the window because I now have to pay a Tactical-tax before I can play those guys.
That is NOT why I play Blood Angels and I am waiting for some FW-model or dataslate to fix this gak.
You can be as pissed as you want be. Why didn't you protect yourself? If you deal with GW then you have to expect this stuff.
I'm sorry, but we're being honest, the only reason people took Assault Squads as Troops under the Wardian steaming turd of codex was because:
a) Ward stupidly gave Assaults the ability to take Meltas/Plasmas, because... "reasons"
b) Ward allowed the removal of Jump Packs to mean you got a 40+pts discount on any Dedicated Transport.
So really, the butthurt here is that your armoured walls of min/maxed transports now perhaps need to snip off a bolt pistol and replace it with a bolter.
And if you were taking nothing but pure Jump Infantry or Death Co., then arguing that your army is now 100% invalidated is rather silly, since I doubt you were playing that force for any kind of serious tourney profits!
The sheer levels of whining here are laughable. A number of BA players are acting like their army just got entirely squatted... You're getting what looks to be an overall solid book! It's not like you're getting a gutted crapheap like what CSM's players got with their 4th edition book that literally did remove over half their options!
gwarsh41 wrote: Everyone was all up in arms about SW when the book released. The rumors had it nerfed into the ground and everyone was crying.
The book comes out, SW models hit ebay, then overnight SW become a competitive choice.
Calm your nurps guys. I know 4/5 of you love nothing more than feverishly typing flames, complaints and cries, but it wont do anything. Save yourself the energy of typing out how you are going to go melt your BA army and be patient.
Worst case is that you book sucks as bad as it already does. It will be playable, the sun will still rise, and you will still roll dice.
Great troll. 10/10. Would straw man again.
No one is complaining about competitiveness. No one is whining about being nerfed into the ground.
If words are too hard for you to understand, I have MSPaint and can draw you a nice picture of what people are complaining about.
Experiment 626 wrote: I'm sorry, but we're being honest, the only reason people took Assault Squads as Troops under the Wardian steaming turd of codex was because: a) Ward stupidly gave Assaults the ability to take Meltas/Plasmas, because... "reasons" b) Ward allowed the removal of Jump Packs to mean you got a 40+pts discount on any Dedicated Transport.
So really, the butthurt here is that your armoured walls of min/maxed transports now perhaps need to snip off a bolt pistol and replace it with a bolter.
And if you were taking nothing but pure Jump Infantry or Death Co., then arguing that your army is now 100% invalidated is rather silly, since I doubt you were playing that force for any kind of serious tourney profits!
The sheer levels of whining here are laughable. A number of BA players are acting like their army just got entirely squatted... You're getting what looks to be an overall solid book! It's not like you're getting a gutted crapheap like what CSM's players got with their 4th edition book that literally did remove over half their options!
Don't be rude and obnoxious. What it amounts to is that people built armies around one of only two defining characteristics that set this army apart for three editions of BOTH the game and the codex (WD, WD Revised 5th ed, 5th ed codex) and GW decided to get rid of one of those two because they're pushing a kit that nobody wants or asked for. You're kidding yourself if you think "game balance" has anything to do with it in the era of unbound, battleforged "armies" from 6 different sources, and superheavies in 1000pt games. GW simply made their money from the assault marines and needs a new influx of cash to prop up the next 6 months of dimishing profits so they decided to screw over 10 years worth of players. If that is something you don't just accept but actually applaud, well.. that speaks to your character.
I actually didn't like the idea of assault marines as troops when they introduced it but it simply has been a part of the rules and the fluff now for three editions of the game and the army. My troops may have been gutted (I lost 3 of my 6 troops choices with the death co and assault marine slot changes) but I'm lucky in that my army predates the changes and I have tacticals for both fluff and crunch reasons back in 3rd edition. That doesn't mean that screwing over players who simply followed the defining army building characteristic of the Blood Angels (complete jump armies) for almost 10 years is in any way fair. It's not.
Yes, let's praise the abrasive nerd for being condescending to people making reasonable posts. The internet needs more brave crusaders like Thud making sure that everyone that disagrees with them is labeled a troll.
Experiment 626 wrote: I'm sorry, but we're being honest, the only reason people took Assault Squads as Troops under the Wardian steaming turd of codex was because: a) Ward stupidly gave Assaults the ability to take Meltas/Plasmas, because... "reasons" b) Ward allowed the removal of Jump Packs to mean you got a 40+pts discount on any Dedicated Transport.
So really, the butthurt here is that your armoured walls of min/maxed transports now perhaps need to snip off a bolt pistol and replace it with a bolter.
And if you were taking nothing but pure Jump Infantry or Death Co., then arguing that your army is now 100% invalidated is rather silly, since I doubt you were playing that force for any kind of serious tourney profits!
The sheer levels of whining here are laughable. A number of BA players are acting like their army just got entirely squatted... You're getting what looks to be an overall solid book! It's not like you're getting a gutted crapheap like what CSM's players got with their 4th edition book that literally did remove over half their options!
Again with this crap?
Seriously? And it's all from people in countries where English is the native language. Are words that hard? Or is it too hard to respond to real arguments, so you have to make up your own? "Hurr-durr, you're all just WAAC players and now you got what was coming to you! Look how smart I am! Sophistry! Le win!"
Not everyone is WAAC. Claiming that everyone only took jump pack troops because "competitive durr" is ludicrous. Especially after BA having been bottom of the heap for the last three years, with the only semblance of competitiveness in BA staying the hell away from Assault Marines as much as possible.
Again; I can just pick up a couple of Tactical Squads, but then I'm basically playing Space Marines, aren't I? And mightn't there be a reason why I didn't just do that in the first place?
And finally; "others have had it worse" is a poor argument. Yes, Chaos got gutted. But guess what, Squats got removed altogether, so now no one can express any negative thoughts about the Design Studio ever again! Ha! Logic!
plastictrees wrote: Yes, let's praise the abrasive nerd for being condescending to people making reasonable posts. The internet needs more brave crusaders like Thud making sure that everyone that disagrees with them is labeled a troll.
Straw man arguments and schadenfraude aren't reasonable.
And I just adore how you're criticizing me for ad hominems in the very same sentence you're doing the same thing.
Experiment 626 wrote: I'm sorry, but we're being honest, the only reason people took Assault Squads as Troops under the Wardian steaming turd of codex was because:
a) Ward stupidly gave Assaults the ability to take Meltas/Plasmas, because... "reasons"
b) Ward allowed the removal of Jump Packs to mean you got a 40+pts discount on any Dedicated Transport.
So really, the butthurt here is that your armoured walls of min/maxed transports now perhaps need to snip off a bolt pistol and replace it with a bolter.
And if you were taking nothing but pure Jump Infantry or Death Co., then arguing that your army is now 100% invalidated is rather silly, since I doubt you were playing that force for any kind of serious tourney profits!
The sheer levels of whining here are laughable. A number of BA players are acting like their army just got entirely squatted... You're getting what looks to be an overall solid book! It's not like you're getting a gutted crapheap like what CSM's players got with their 4th edition book that literally did remove over half their options!
Just because we don't agree or understand it doesn't mean we can't sympathize. TBH if we give GW money then we are responsible for perpetuating their behavior.
Shield of Baal exterminatus is next in the campaign. I checked the leaked images of the white dwarf and it will have detachments/formations for blood Angels as well as warlord traits and relics for the 1st company and flesh tearers.
plastictrees wrote: Yes, let's praise the abrasive nerd for being condescending to people making reasonable posts. The internet needs more brave crusaders like Thud making sure that everyone that disagrees with them is labeled a troll.
We're all abrasive and condescending nerds here. Its part of Dakka's charm. The post simply struck me funny is all. This thread is following the standard pattern. Outrage, counter outrage, dickish behavior, lack of empathy, false sense of righteousness.
plastictrees wrote: Yes, let's praise the abrasive nerd for being condescending to people making reasonable posts. The internet needs more brave crusaders like Thud making sure that everyone that disagrees with them is labeled a troll.
Straw man arguments and schadenfraude aren't reasonable.
And I just adore how you're criticizing me for ad hominems in the very same sentence you're doing the same thing.
You're being abrasive, that's not an ad hominem. I assumed you wore it like a badge of honor and prided yourself on 'telling it like it is'.
Several people have referred to the BA being nerfed. Maybe you're not making that argument, but not everyone is talking to you.
plastictrees wrote: Yes, let's praise the abrasive nerd for being condescending to people making reasonable posts. The internet needs more brave crusaders like Thud making sure that everyone that disagrees with them is labeled a troll.
We're all abrasive and condescending nerds here. Its part of Dakka's charm. The post simply struck me funny is all. This thread is following the standard pattern. Outrage, counter outrage, dickish behavior, lack of empathy, false sense of righteousness.
I'm honestly surprised we haven't gotten the 1-2 sentence, haters gonna hate style posts yet.
On the topic of releases:
I've said in another thread that extra detail on the Tacticals was worth the extra $3 USD ($2 diff CDN, what the hell happened there). I do not feel the same about the Terminators, those don't seem worth the extra $10 more than SM Termies.
Experiment 626 wrote: I'm sorry, but we're being honest, the only reason people took Assault Squads as Troops under the Wardian steaming turd of codex was because:
a) Ward stupidly gave Assaults the ability to take Meltas/Plasmas, because... "reasons"
b) Ward allowed the removal of Jump Packs to mean you got a 40+pts discount on any Dedicated Transport.
Well, I'm not going to claim anything about "the only reason." People do things for lots of reasons. Personal expression is a large part of this hobby, at least for those of us that give a gak about our miniatures.
But I will say this -- if a new killer army build emerges from the new codex, many hard feelings will suddenly be smoothed over and ideas about what's fluffy and appropriate for BA will undergo an instant, magical shift.
Thus has it always been for Warhammer 40,000, and thus shall it ever be.
Adds further credence to the idea of them getting a new codex then yes ?
Seems likely that at least one of the existing special characters will be in that too.
Yeah, it certainly seems like Exterminatus will also build a bridge to Necrons.
.. Free CoD tactical objectives too eh ?
... Cards that one can cut out and use ?
Wait, what? I must have missed that. They mentioned CoDtac objective cards in Leviathan...I was wondering if they were going to be released at some point. Edit: Found it. That seems like a lot of cards to cut out, but the idea of inserts in WD that you cut out and use certainly makes me nostalgic.
Experiment 626 wrote: I'm sorry, but we're being honest, the only reason people took Assault Squads as Troops under the Wardian steaming turd of codex was because:
a) Ward stupidly gave Assaults the ability to take Meltas/Plasmas, because... "reasons"
b) Ward allowed the removal of Jump Packs to mean you got a 40+pts discount on any Dedicated Transport.
Well, I'm not going to claim anything about "the only reason." People do things for lots of reasons. Personal expression is a large part of this hobby, at least for those of us that give a gak about our miniatures.
But I will say this -- if a new killer army build emerges from the new codex, many hard feelings will suddenly be smoothed over and ideas about what's fluffy and appropriate for BA will undergo an instant, magical shift.
Thus has it always been for Warhammer 40,000, and thus shall it ever be.
In terms of ASM changes, my money is on a supplement that is 1HQ 2 FA compulsory then opens a total 6FA slots up (like CoF did with Elites).
Overall it's not terrible, but what really irks me is that there's nothing new here. Look at all the stuff that the C:SM and SW books introduced. They couldn't fit one new unit in there? It's all just FOC shuffles and point changes.
...that's three, one more then salamanders... Whoopy! they get rerolls to wound with them which is actually relevant.
Two Hand Flamers
1 Flamer
1 Heavy Flamer
Now that Blood Angles Tactical Squads are now Better at Assaulting than Grey Hunters.
OK so this whole thing hinges on betting sarge gets to dual wield... My guess is its like most new books and says swap your bolt pistol for X. In other words he will be able to take one. Still slightly better then a combi flamer IMO.
More Dakka wrote: In terms of ASM changes, my money is on a supplement that is 1HQ 2 FA compulsory then opens a total 6FA slots up (like CoF did with Elites).
Overall it's not terrible, but what really irks me is that there's nothing new here. Look at all the stuff that the C:SM and SW books introduced. They couldn't fit one new unit in there? It's all just FOC shuffles and point changes.
I think the one bright spot there is that recent history (like with Tyranids) has shown that GW is no longer allergic to releasing new miniatures outside of the normal release cycle.
More Dakka wrote: In terms of ASM changes, my money is on a supplement that is 1HQ 2 FA compulsory then opens a total 6FA slots up (like CoF did with Elites).
Overall it's not terrible, but what really irks me is that there's nothing new here. Look at all the stuff that the C:SM and SW books introduced. They couldn't fit one new unit in there? It's all just FOC shuffles and point changes.
You really wanted a sleigh for Christmas ??
A flyer might have been interesting and in theme as long as its better than the other recent Astartes flyers (although I liked and bought the Wolf one)
More Dakka wrote: In terms of ASM changes, my money is on a supplement that is 1HQ 2 FA compulsory then opens a total 6FA slots up (like CoF did with Elites).
Overall it's not terrible, but what really irks me is that there's nothing new here. Look at all the stuff that the C:SM and SW books introduced. They couldn't fit one new unit in there? It's all just FOC shuffles and point changes.
Yeah, I fully expect some sort of "all drop" supplement that restores the functionality we had in a $30 codex for only two purchases with a combined price of $95.
Yeah the blurb about the newest Shield of Baal book says there is stuff for the necron dynasty so it looks like we will bridge to them next.
With blood angels getting a new terminator kit and stuff for the Blood Angels first company in the new Shield of Baal it seems like the new BA identity is terminators.
Redemption wrote: The supplement is about the Archangels - the first company - so I'd expect it to be more about Terminator squads and Sanguinary Guard and such.
Thanks, didn't know and must have missed that. In any case, I still expect them to add back what they took away for an additional purchase, if not a supplement then a dataslate.
theharrower wrote: Did anyone order their Shield of Baal Boxed Set from TheWarStore and get it yet? I'm still waiting on my copy... Grrr!
They're backed up a bit from their Black Friday sale, and what's more they had this specifically about GW:
GAMES WORKSHOP Orders
If your order contains any Games Workshop items, it is delayed due to large volume related shipping delays at GW's Memphis Facility. My distributor says that the Games Workshop order will arrive on Tuesday Dec 9. This includes Deathstorm orders. Please rest assured as soon as it arrives we will be moving it out as quicky as possible - most orders will go out the same day.
theharrower wrote: Did anyone order their Shield of Baal Boxed Set from TheWarStore and get it yet? I'm still waiting on my copy... Grrr!
They're backed up a bit from their Black Friday sale, and what's more they had this specifically about GW:
GAMES WORKSHOP Orders
If your order contains any Games Workshop items, it is delayed due to large volume related shipping delays at GW's Memphis Facility. My distributor says that the Games Workshop order will arrive on Tuesday Dec 9. This includes Deathstorm orders. Please rest assured as soon as it arrives we will be moving it out as quicky as possible - most orders will go out the same day.
theharrower wrote: Did anyone order their Shield of Baal Boxed Set from TheWarStore and get it yet? I'm still waiting on my copy... Grrr!
They're backed up a bit from their Black Friday sale, and what's more they had this specifically about GW:
GAMES WORKSHOP Orders
If your order contains any Games Workshop items, it is delayed due to large volume related shipping delays at GW's Memphis Facility. My distributor says that the Games Workshop order will arrive on Tuesday Dec 9. This includes Deathstorm orders. Please rest assured as soon as it arrives we will be moving it out as quicky as possible - most orders will go out the same day.
Mr Morden wrote: Army Styles not changing - have you seen the new Dark Eldar Codex and the massive changes it has made to the play style and army lists?
Not even slightly the same. The Dark Eldar Codex lost special characters that never had models anyway and the FOC changes those special characters brought about went with them. They didn't take Warriors or Wyches and put them in a completely different slot, invalidating the very structure of the army.
Isn't that slightly disingenuous? Yes, there is a technical distinction between removing an unlock/character that allows certain units to be taken as troops, and changing a unit from one slot to another, but the entire basis of the objection to taking Assault Marines out of the troops slot is that it invalidates a style of play and makes a mockery of the money a lot of people spent on armies that fit that style of play; either of the two scenarios has that same outcome. If the next C:SM removed the Bikes-as-troops unlock from the Chapter Master/Captain/Khan, would you tell White Scars players that no longer being able to run all six of the Bike squads they bought and paid for as troops isn't as valid a reason to be upset as Blood Angels players losing AM troops?
Either giving players the option to build an army a certain way and then removing that option at a later time once they've spent the money to do so is bad, or it's not. Exactly how GW choose to give and then take away the options doesn't have any bearing IMO.
theharrower wrote: Did anyone order their Shield of Baal Boxed Set from TheWarStore and get it yet? I'm still waiting on my copy... Grrr!
I ordered mine from Frontline Gaming. Tracking says it will arrive on Saturday at my office where I had them ship it....unfortunately, no one is here at the office on the weekends to receive mail...so I wont see mine until next Monday :(
theharrower wrote: Did anyone order their Shield of Baal Boxed Set from TheWarStore and get it yet? I'm still waiting on my copy... Grrr!
Really?! I just got my deathstorm, blood angel codex and blood angel Datacard right in my hand...
Order from GW is quicker
Any word on what happened with Command Squads and whether Sanguinary Priests take up HQ slots?
Sanguinary priest are HQ.. Double side chainsword called narthecium look good! Can take melee, ranged weapon special issue wargear and relics of Baal list.
There are command squad with lot of stuff going on this unit. Too bad company champion must always issue and accept a challenge when possible.. Heh.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Can we confirm that the Sanguinor is still the same stats, aka still only AP3???
Ws 8, bs&S 5, T4, W3, I6, A4, ld 10 and sv 2+... And his sword are still AP of 3.
Mr Morden wrote: Army Styles not changing - have you seen the new Dark Eldar Codex and the massive changes it has made to the play style and army lists?
Not even slightly the same. The Dark Eldar Codex lost special characters that never had models anyway and the FOC changes those special characters brought about went with them. They didn't take Warriors or Wyches and put them in a completely different slot, invalidating the very structure of the army.
Isn't that slightly disingenuous? Yes, there is a technical distinction between removing an unlock/character that allows certain units to be taken as troops, and changing a unit from one slot to another, but the entire basis of the objection to taking Assault Marines out of the troops slot is that it invalidates a style of play and makes a mockery of the money a lot of people spent on armies that fit that style of play; either of the two scenarios has that same outcome. If the next C:SM removed the Bikes-as-troops unlock from the Chapter Master/Captain/Khan, would you tell White Scars players that no longer being able to run all six of the Bike squads they bought and paid for as troops isn't as valid a reason to be upset as Blood Angels players losing AM troops?
Either giving players the option to build an army a certain way and then removing that option at a later time once they've spent the money to do so is bad, or it's not. Exactly how GW choose to give and then take away the options doesn't have any bearing IMO.
As a White Scar enthusiast I sadly feel that this will happen when we get our next codex
Some days I wonder is buying 10 bikes in one go was a good choice
I wonder if the Felsh Tearers are goping to atone for previous actions and not slaughter the Sisters they are supposed to be aiding or fall further into damnation?
Las wrote: New book looks very interesting, lots of builds in there, way more so than the old book.
I wonder how many of the people raging have Ward hate posts from a year and a half ago in their post history.
ok while I like some of the changes and despise others and I do see some good builds so far at least on paper (however I need play testing to find out). The book doesn't however stand out as a multi-build book at all to me.
Dante Looks to be an Auto include, also Priest look to be as well. DC and DC dread look good, however all this starts to prove is we have a very few sections that are overloaded as all get out. Elites is stuffed to the Brim, HQ is stuffed, HS is stuffed.
Some good Builds on paper (so far from all we know) however I don't know that the multi-builds is sticking out to me. However that seems to be the pretty standard affair after going through the blander.
Through all this though and as frustrated as I am by all this, I will say codexs going through a blanding does appear to be GW trying to rope in some of these codexs and it is stopping codex creep for the most part.
lol also I hope Necrons are next since that's my brothers army. Can't wait to see what they lose and watch my brother go nuts.
For those crying Doom about the assault marines - there will be a detachment, formation or both incoming within weeks. Sure it could have been in the codex, but welcome to GW DLC. This is not the end of your army, even if you don't accept unbound.
And to all Space Marines players out there, accept in your hearts now that FoC swapping is dead and there'll be no troops bikes in the next codex, it'll save you a blood vessel or 2 closer to the time.
People put way too much complaining into the ap 3 thing when it comes to these special characters. It funny because terminators suck so incredibly much yet these guys all play full forces of them and apparently need a guy with a sword to handle them
I am teasing but seriously its not a big issue, these sword characters are meant for shredding MEQ infantry anyway, even with an ap2 sword a power fist/SS chapter master would still cream the sanguinor 9 times in 10.
Don't forget that the GW Advent calendar shows that there will be a Blood Angel dataslate released on Saturday the 13th, the same day the codex officially goes on sale.
Las wrote: New book looks very interesting, lots of builds in there, way more so than the old book.
I wonder how many of the people raging have Ward hate posts from a year and a half ago in their post history.
ok while I like some of the changes and despise others and I do see some good builds so far at least on paper (however I need play testing to find out). The book doesn't however stand out as a multi-build book at all to me.
Dante Looks to be an Auto include, also Priest look to be as well. DC and DC dread look good, however all this starts to prove is we have a very few sections that are overloaded as all get out. Elites is stuffed to the Brim, HQ is stuffed, HS is stuffed.
Some good Builds on paper (so far from all we know) however I don't know that the multi-builds is sticking out to me. However that seems to be the pretty standard affair after going through the blander.
Through all this though and as frustrated as I am by all this, I will say codexs going through a blanding does appear to be GW trying to rope in some of these codexs and it is stopping codex creep for the most part.
lol also I hope Necrons are next since that's my brothers army. Can't wait to see what they lose and watch my brother go nuts.
The thing with "auto include" units is that they aren't necessarily the best option but the easiest option to play. This is not to say the unit is necessarily op or bad, but that people often over look builds because are more challenging to play but if used correctly by a good player, can be brutal on the table.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: Don't forget that the GW Advent calendar shows that there will be a Blood Angel dataslate released on Saturday the 13th, the same day the codex officially goes on sale.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: Don't forget that the GW Advent calendar shows that there will be a Blood Angel dataslate released on Saturday the 13th, the same day the codex officially goes on sale.
Looks like it - so I guess they were trying to Ironic - although I guess it could refer to Eldar reinforcements or even the Fleshtearers and Sororitas fighting together
Crimson wrote: They can either play unbound or get that single box of tacticals they claim they do not have. No big deal.
Really? "Play unbound" is your solution?
Actually use the rules of the game! Shocking suggestion, I know!
The problem is caused by the house rule of not allowing unbound, not by GW. And as long as you're house-ruling, you might as well house rule the assault marines into troops anyway.
No, the problem is caused by GW trying to push their Tactical-sales by removing any other option from the Troop-slot.
And by changing a FOC-slot that has been considered as 'THE' Blood Angel-thing.
Kangodo wrote: No, the problem is caused by GW trying to push their Tactical-sales by removing any other option from the Troop-slot.
And by changing a FOC-slot that has been considered as 'THE' Blood Angel-thing.
And the only reason it was their thing to begin with (for ONE book I might add) was because of a much maligned codex author with a propensity for writing poor fluff and mono build codeces. This is a fix imo.
Ultimately you can play with an old edition with a group that will allow it (which precludes you from tournaments), stop playing, or sit down with the codex and figure out how to adapt to the new codex. The choice is every player's. I will sit down and adapt, I never ran a full assault army anyway.
Whining about it does not move people forward. I understand there is frustration, and I understand why. That frustration does not change what comes with this codex, however. Nor does it change the need for people to take long views on something like this, as it's not a ruleset that stays permanently the same.
Looks like it - so I guess they were trying to Ironic - although I guess it could refer to Eldar reinforcements or even the Fleshtearers and Sororitas fighting together
I was thinking unexpected journey-unexpected allies-hobbit-new hobbit models. And the new laketown models to finaly join the battle of five armies as unexpected allies make this look plausible.
Kangodo wrote: No, the problem is caused by GW trying to push their Tactical-sales by removing any other option from the Troop-slot.
And by changing a FOC-slot that has been considered as 'THE' Blood Angel-thing.
And the only reason it was their thing to begin with (for ONE book I might add) was because of a much maligned codex author with a propensity for writing poor fluff and mono build codeces. This is a fix imo.
I'd dispute that Ward made Mono-build codexes. Compared to Phil Kelly, he was a genius when it came to internally balanced books. Compare all the different things you could do with the BA and GK books versus things like CSM, the 5e Space Wolves, or the Eldar and Dark Eldar that Kelly did.
For all the goofy things Ward put into 40k, he erred on the side of things being too good or too cheap rather than overpriced or terrible.
There are mostly Tac Marine son the cover (which is not a very good pic tbh) - the only Assault marines are in the far background
Whilst Assault Marines are incredably common in a Blood Angel's strike force, this should not be taken to indicate that Assault Squads are any more prevalent here than in other Chapters
Assault is considered sub optimal these days, IIRC.
Why are people getting upset about Blood Angel players wanting to keep their DoA builds? For once, it seems people are arguing to keep a nerf.
I realize "BUT BACKGROUND." Counterpoint: the background on the Flesh Tearers is that they're deranged killing machines that want nothing less than to drink the blood of their foes, allies, random bystanders, et al, and -being a depleted and doomed chapter- each marine fills whatever role is needed/desired. It seems perfectly fine and consistent with the established background to have them all be assault.
Let my red/black marines descend into howling madness how I choose.
You can still do that, just not as troops. Why can't I use my homebrew chapters ASM as troops? It's in my fluff and they're just as codex adherent as BA.
And you can still use those models btw, up to 60/70 of them in a forged list. Relax.
Kangodo wrote: No, the problem is caused by GW trying to push their Tactical-sales by removing any other option from the Troop-slot.
And by changing a FOC-slot that has been considered as 'THE' Blood Angel-thing.
And the only reason it was their thing to begin with (for ONE book I might add) was because of a much maligned codex author with a propensity for writing poor fluff and mono build codeces. This is a fix imo.
Dont know about "only reason".
Obviously the player base, me included, really liked that kind of army. As many other players, one of the main reasons I chose to play BA was the ability to drop tacticals and focus on jumpies. My first MEQ army was SW, and BA gave me a good reason to get a new uniqe play style and do something different. Right now Im thinking I will probably go unbound for my BA and focus on DC + Mephiston.
By the way, anyone know if you can have more than one DC-squad in a BF detachment?
No one has touched this yet but can Assault Marines take discounted transports? This is all I really care about to be honest. In fact they don't have to discounted I just have a lot of Assault Marines without jump packs.....I know I should have magnetised them.
Sent in an email letting them know I won't be buying any GW product while the oversight about BA assault marines not being troops exists. Suggested that they could simply errata them to recover me as a customer.
If you are also one of the ones affected, or you just want to chime in because you might be affected by something similar (such as bikes not being troops for white scars, or necron immortals jumping out of troops section, etc,) then here's the only place I found to go to to send them some feedback.
Sent in an email letting them know I won't be buying any GW product while the oversight about BA assault marines not being troops exists. Suggested that they could simply errata them to recover me as a customer.
If you are also one of the ones affected, or you just want to chime in because you might be affected by something similar (such as bikes not being troops for white scars, or necron immortals jumping out of troops section, etc,) then here's the only place I found to go to to send them some feedback.
You could do like Red_Thirst and grupily stop playing BA for 7 years and then suddenly come back to tell people to "get over" the new codex changes
PastelAvenger wrote: No one has touched this yet but can Assault Marines take discounted transports? This is all I really care about to be honest. In fact they don't have to discounted I just have a lot of Assault Marines without jump packs.....I know I should have magnetised them.
Yes they can remove jump pack and replace it with transportation for discount or not. ( I haven't done a math yet.)
I saw there are transport unit but haven't look at if they are also use up fast slot or not? Will have a look at later.
Sent in an email letting them know I won't be buying any GW product while the oversight about BA assault marines not being troops exists. Suggested that they could simply errata them to recover me as a customer.
If you are also one of the ones affected, or you just want to chime in because you might be affected by something similar (such as bikes not being troops for white scars, or necron immortals jumping out of troops section, etc,) then here's the only place I found to go to to send them some feedback.
You`ll get a basic run of the mill reply and that`ll be that
Sadly, most of the recent books seem to lose the FOC shifting thing, usually replaced with a special FOC that focuses on that particular slot.
For example, Space Wolves losing "Wolf Guard become troops" on Logan, but then getting the "Champions of Fenris" FOC that focuses on Elites over Troops.
Hopefully Blood Angels see something similar, so Jump Blood Angel armies can play as they want to again.
SolentSanguine wrote: So, Heavy Flamers are assault weapons. A BATac squad can put out 3 templates (maybe 4 if the sergeant can take 2 hand flamers), fire 7 bolt pistols and then charge at +1S, and if with a priest +1I and +1WS as well?
Assuming there is anything left for them to charge, yes, they could do this and it would be glorious.
These flamer options will make Blood Angels tacticals great at overwatch. 2D3 S3 hits, 1D3 S4 hits and 1D3 S5 hits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
natpri771 wrote: 1. White Scars take bikes as troops, why aren't you complaining about that?
2. Grey Knights take terminators as troops, why aren't you complaining about that? (They can also take Psyker terminators with 2 wounds as troops)
3. Dark Angels can take terminators AND bikes as troops, why aren't you complaining about that?
Firstly Paladins can no longer be taken as troops.
Secondly I think the rest of the armies need to be REALLY worried. This is the way it is now. We have lost Assault Squads from our troops section and Space Wolves lost the ability to take Wolf Guard as troops (they did however get a supplement that lets them take elite slots as their FOC). I'm guessing that bikes for C:SM and DA will go too as well as the Ravenwing. They will all be put back into their normal FOC slots. Grey Knights survived with termies in tact, but then again they don't have a lot of options in their entire codex anyway.
PastelAvenger wrote: No one has touched this yet but can Assault Marines take discounted transports? This is all I really care about to be honest. In fact they don't have to discounted I just have a lot of Assault Marines without jump packs.....I know I should have magnetised them.
Yes they can remove jump pack and replace it with transportation for discount or not. ( I haven't done a math yet.)
I saw there are transport unit but haven't look at if they are also use up fast slot or not? Will have a look at later.
This is brilliant news thanks buddy you don't know how happy I am over this.
streamdragon wrote: Sadly, most of the recent books seem to lose the FOC shifting thing, usually replaced with a special FOC that focuses on that particular slot.
For example, Space Wolves losing "Wolf Guard become troops" on Logan, but then getting the "Champions of Fenris" FOC that focuses on Elites over Troops.
Hopefully Blood Angels see something similar, so Jump Blood Angel armies can play as they want to again.
Except that what you once got when you bought the codex - and mayhaps was the reason you went for this army above any other - now costs you the price of another codex, since you need the default one and the supplement. If you consider this to be an "ok" state of affairs, i don't know what to say.
This is why I fear for the Necron update and is why I built a themeless theme so that the next update won't invalidate what I've acquired over the years (unless stuff gets Pariahed).
Why would he be smiling, since he is no longer employed by GW and likely didn't have a hand in this Codex. And really, the swing back around to Tacticals over Assaults is only going to benefit the current regime.
In other words, someone is making money, and it ain't him.
I think he is smiling because perhaps people now realise that he wasn't as bad as they thought he was. Lets face it, I bet a lot of players now wish that Ward had had a hand in this dex.
Just wanted to pop in and remind everyone that I was right. Everyone ignored me or dismissed me as just being "negative" when I tried to warn you that a BA update wouldn't be what you expected, you ignored the obvious trend with every army update ever since Orks came out, but not only did the codex get the predictable "7th edition sidegrade/blandification treatment", it got kicked way harder in the nuts than even I was expecting.
Sidstyler wrote: Just wanted to pop in and remind everyone that I was right. Everyone ignored me or dismissed me as just being "negative" when I tried to warn you that a BA update wouldn't be what you expected, you ignored the obvious trend with every army update ever since Orks came out, but not only did the codex get the predictable "7th edition sidegrade/blandification treatment", it got kicked way harder in the nuts than even I was expecting.
Crimson wrote: They can either play unbound or get that single box of tacticals they claim they do not have. No big deal.
Really? "Play unbound" is your solution?
Unfortunately, that IS GW's solution. It's why we don't have all the force org changing characters in these new books anymore. :(
I have to say I fail to see why it's an issue. If you're going to play with people who will refuse your army that is exactly the same as it has been for the last however many years just because it's now Unbound (so actually losing ObSec bonuses it has up until Saturday) then I think you need to look at who you are playing.
It's irksome if you have no Tacs/Scouts and want to use the new detachment, but no one's army is going to be unplayable against any reasonable human being.
This is why I fear for the Necron update and is why I built a themeless theme so that the next update won't invalidate what I've acquired over the years (unless stuff gets Pariahed).
Why would he be smiling, since he is no longer employed by GW and likely didn't have a hand in this Codex. And really, the swing back around to Tacticals over Assaults is only going to benefit the current regime.
In other words, someone is making money, and it ain't him.
I think he is smiling because perhaps people now realise that he wasn't as bad as they thought he was. Lets face it, I bet a lot of players now wish that Ward had had a hand in this dex.
I will laugh when people start wishing for the good ol' days when Ward was writing codices.
The game is changing. It's becoming about a much tighter, more focused core with a myriad variable options. That's just the nature of things. Whether or not it's for you is what you need to figure out.
Las wrote: The game is changing. It's becoming about a much tighter, more focused core with a myriad variable options. That's just the nature of things. Whether or not it's for you is what you need to figure out.
I didn't know that less options were actually "More" options... Nothing got added in to this codex, it just had stuff taken away and shifted into really bad places...
I wish Matt Ward had written this dex, the fluff might've been worthy of many facepalms, but at least his rules were excellent.
I actually liked the Matt Ward dex, as I bought it the day it was released and fell in love with it. Sure, his fluff was bad, but his rules were good, you cannot deny that.
Las wrote: And the only reason it was their thing to begin with (for ONE book I might add) was because of a much maligned codex author with a propensity for writing poor fluff and mono build codeces. This is a fix imo.
Does the reason matter?
Let's look at the facts instead of arguments, opinions and reasons.
The fact is that I own 5 Boltgun Tactical Marines because the rest of them are used as Death Company or Devastator Squads: I have 40 JP-Troops at the moment.
Another fact is that many people sold their Tactical Marines because to them the Blood Angels are about Jump Pack-Troops.
Most people don't "complain" because Blood Angels lost their ASM-troops.
Most people "complain" because they have a crapload of models that they can't really use any more AND because they now need to play units they don't want to play.
The last time I played a Tactical Marine was three years ago, I decided that I didn't like them and I got rid of it.
Another thing is that everybody was happy we'd finally have a cost-reduction on ASM.
In fact they were made more expensive since we have a Troop-tax now.
It's a crappy way of GW to promote Unbound and push their new sales.
It gets even worse when people are actually hoping for a 40 euro supplement to fix this nonsense.
And the worst part of all: People telling you that you shouldn't be whining when GW just invalidated half your army and forces you to spend another €34 on models you don't actually want.
Can we just accept that some people are unhappy about losing ASM as troops (rightly so, imo) and leave it at that? There's like 20 pages of this same argument back and forth.
I actually liked the Matt Ward dex, as I bought it the day it was released and fell in love with it. Sure, his fluff was bad, but his rules were good, you cannot deny that.
Matt ward rightfully caught a lot of flakk for his fluff (which was awful) and his 5th ed grey knights (which were worse than the abortion that is the current eldar). His rules in 5th ed space marines, BA, and necrons were actually really cool and strong.
But lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Losing assault marines as troops seems to be the only real negative thus far. Granted, its big, but having an army that has old furious charge, and half of it with FNP, is gonna be awesome. I cant think of a non daemon prince unit that can take a charge from death co or sanguinary guard. Hell, if you run the math, a tac marine squad with flamer+combi+heavy flamer can shoot into a squad of thunderwolves and then stand a good chance of WINNING combat when they charge.
Thats right. Our tac marines beat thunderwolves in a fight.
But lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Losing assault marines as troops seems to be the only real negative thus far. Granted, its big, but having an army that has old furious charge, and half of it with FNP, is gonna be awesome. I cant think of a non daemon prince unit that can take a charge from death co or sanguinary guard. Hell, if you run the math, a tac marine squad with flamer+combi+heavy flamer can shoot into a squad of thunderwolves and then stand a good chance of WINNING combat when they charge.
Thats right. Our tac marines beat thunderwolves in a fight.
Paradigm wrote: Can anyone confirm if the Sang Priests can get TDA? I saw someone mention they got access to the Special Wargear list, is TDA on that?
Terminator armor is never on that list. It's always its own selection.
Hence why I asked two questions. I'd like to know if a) it's been added to the list, b) the option is there but not mentioned, or c) the option is gone.
pretre wrote: I just find it funny that we've come so far that people want Ward back.
And by "people" you of course mean "that one guy who said it", right?
I see it as a cry for help. No one really wants Ward back, they just don't want Cruddace and Kelly to keep messin' up army books.
No, I've seen a couple other posts here and elsewhere that people have mentioned it. As for C&K, they've been messin' up army books for what... 20 years now? It's not messing up anymore, it is just people expect something different than they have always provided.
Crimson wrote: They can either play unbound or get that single box of tacticals they claim they do not have. No big deal.
Really? "Play unbound" is your solution?
Actually use the rules of the game! Shocking suggestion, I know!
The problem is caused by the house rule of not allowing unbound, not by GW. And as long as you're house-ruling, you might as well house rule the assault marines into troops anyway.
Ok, so, play Unbound? Cool.
How do I get ObSec on my ASM squads then?
You know, like they've had since ObSec became a thing.
pretre wrote: I just find it funny that we've come so far that people want Ward back.
And by "people" you of course mean "that one guy who said it", right?
I see it as a cry for help. No one really wants Ward back, they just don't want Cruddace and Kelly to keep messin' up army books.
I really want Ward back, but I want his writing to be limited to rules development, not fluff.
I own exactly 0 tactical marines, and 0 scouts... this hurts me as now I need to pay a troop tax to get my assault marines and DC...
Also, the Reclusiarch is gone, an HQ choice I almost EXCLUSIVELY ran because of his badassery alone. Now my Metal Chaplain's paint job doesn't make any sense.
You know, like they've had since ObSec became a thing.
Stop whining Az. I lost a specific play-style borne of a special character that never got a model, and that's totally the same thing as having the entire structure of your army that's been in place for 5+ years removed for no other reason than to push a new Tactical Marine kit!
Crimson wrote: They can either play unbound or get that single box of tacticals they claim they do not have. No big deal.
Really? "Play unbound" is your solution?
Actually use the rules of the game! Shocking suggestion, I know!
The problem is caused by the house rule of not allowing unbound, not by GW. And as long as you're house-ruling, you might as well house rule the assault marines into troops anyway.
Ok, so, play Unbound? Cool.
How do I get ObSec on my ASM squads then?
You know, like they've had since ObSec became a thing.
Obviously you can't (although I imagine if you ask few will object), but the point is that the army isn't suddenly unusable, which several people are trying to make out.
What would you rather have, a rule the army has only had for a few months anyway, or to be able to keep playing with no additional cost? The call is yours, but both are available options.
But lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Losing assault marines as troops seems to be the only real negative thus far. Granted, its big, but having an army that has old furious charge, and half of it with FNP, is gonna be awesome. I cant think of a non daemon prince unit that can take a charge from death co or sanguinary guard. Hell, if you run the math, a tac marine squad with flamer+combi+heavy flamer can shoot into a squad of thunderwolves and then stand a good chance of WINNING combat when they charge.
Thats right. Our tac marines beat thunderwolves in a fight.
I want to see your math on that.
Assuming 4 hits per flamer, thats 3 wounds from flamers and 2 from heavy flamers (5 so far). Then 7 pistols, which will do another wound (up to 6). This equates to one dead thunderwolf after armor saves. Marines charge in with 21 attacks at str and init5, hitting 10.5 and wounding 5.25, rounding out to another dead wolf before they swing. Wolves hit back 15 times, hit 7.5, wound with around 4 (rending once) and killing 2 marines total.
Ok, so not WIN combat. But tying with one of the best assault units in the game is nothing to sneeze at.
Now sanguinary guard with a banner is a different story. 20 master crafted attacks will hit 12 times, wound 6, killing 3 wolves before they swing back. MAYBE losing a guy in return.
So, as a recent purchaser of the Deathstorm boxed set, I am now grappling with the fact that I might want to start a Blood Angels army.
With that in consideration, I am wondering what people think of running Raphen's Death Company and Cassor the Damned as their two minimum troop requirements (350 points total)?
Their weapon load-out seems a bit schizophrenic, but it does allow for running Death Company in the troop slot.
If i were to start Blood Angels, am I better off building the Death Company as part of a larger squad, or outfitting them as outlined for Raphen's squad?
th3maninblak wrote: Assuming 4 hits per flamer, thats 3 wounds from flamers and 2 from heavy flamers (5 so far). Then 7 pistols, which will do another wound (up to 6). This equates to one dead thunderwolf after armor saves. Marines charge in with 21 attacks at str and init5, hitting 10.5 and wounding 5.25, rounding out to another dead wolf before they swing. Wolves hit back 15 times, hit 7.5, wound with around 4 (rending once) and killing 2 marines total.
Ok, so not WIN combat. But tying with one of the best assault units in the game is nothing to sneeze at.
Now sanguinary guard with a banner is a different story. 20 master crafted attacks will hit 12 times, wound 6, killing 3 wolves before they swing back. MAYBE losing a guy in return.
th3maninblak wrote: Assuming 4 hits per flamer, thats 3 wounds from flamers and 2 from heavy flamers (5 so far). Then 7 pistols, which will do another wound (up to 6). This equates to one dead thunderwolf after armor saves. Marines charge in with 21 attacks at str and init5, hitting 10.5 and wounding 5.25, rounding out to another dead wolf before they swing. Wolves hit back 15 times, hit 7.5, wound with around 4 (rending once) and killing 2 marines total.
Ok, so not WIN combat. But tying with one of the best assault units in the game is nothing to sneeze at.
Now sanguinary guard with a banner is a different story. 20 master crafted attacks will hit 12 times, wound 6, killing 3 wolves before they swing back. MAYBE losing a guy in return.
People take bare thunderwolves?
5 bare thunderwolves are the easiest to math hammer out, since theyre 200 points even. Adding a fist and a couple storm shields is optimal but adds an extra 55 points to the cost. With SG thats another 2 dudes, or a priest, since a 5 man squad with a banner is 190.
Crimson wrote: They can either play unbound or get that single box of tacticals they claim they do not have. No big deal.
Really? "Play unbound" is your solution?
Actually use the rules of the game! Shocking suggestion, I know!
The problem is caused by the house rule of not allowing unbound, not by GW. And as long as you're house-ruling, you might as well house rule the assault marines into troops anyway.
Ok, so, play Unbound? Cool.
How do I get ObSec on my ASM squads then?
You know, like they've had since ObSec became a thing.
Obviously you can't (although I imagine if you ask few will object), but the point is that the army isn't suddenly unusable, which several people are trying to make out.
What would you rather have, a rule the army has only had for a few months anyway, or to be able to keep playing with no additional cost? The call is yours, but both are available options.
The time frame isn't really relevant, because it remains a thing for other units and now BA ASM can't have it, meaning if you're going to contiue using them as is, they've lost something, as well as the other compromises one makes when running an Unboumd list, even if you and your regular opponents are fine with it.
I'm only really playing devil's advocate anyway, my own BA army is in fact painted as Raven Guard, I just used the codex to allow jump squads as troops for fluff reasons without needing to ask my opponent to compromise anything, I normally ran one or two Tac Squads too.
But my point is "play Unbound" isn't a solution, it is, at best, a lousy compromise for anyone who played a DoA force.
You know, like they've had since ObSec became a thing.
Stop whining Az. I lost a specific play-style borne of a special character that never got a model, and that's totally the same thing as having the entire structure of your army that's been in place for 5+ years removed for no other reason than to push a new Tactical Marine kit!
Sent in an email letting them know I won't be buying any GW product while the oversight about BA assault marines not being troops exists. Suggested that they could simply errata them to recover me as a customer.
If you are also one of the ones affected, or you just want to chime in because you might be affected by something similar (such as bikes not being troops for white scars, or necron immortals jumping out of troops section, etc,) then here's the only place I found to go to to send them some feedback.
Quite disingenuous there. It's not an oversight, it's a design change that you disagree with. I'm not going to argue the merits of the change to ASM from troops, but callin it an oversight and suggesting they simply errata it back to please you is a rather petty statement.
It wasn't unlocked by a special character, but losing ASM as troops is functionally similar to Orks losing Nobz as troops, GK losing Paladins and Purifiers as troops, SW losing Wolf Guard as troops, or Dark Eldar having the one thing keeping their Wych troops semi-useful removed.
Marines troops are Tactical squads and recruits (or their equivalents), with other units in other FOC slots. Dark Angels will likely lose Ravenwin/eathwing troop options, and Vanilla marines might even lose bikes as troops (which would hurt white scars badly, but they are not Ultramarines or Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists/Black Templars so it would be no different than continuing to avoid giving Iron Hands a SC, or having Salamanders watch Blood Angels get heavy flamers in tac squads, and a ton of flame and melta weapon options they lack)
You know, like they've had since ObSec became a thing.
Stop whining Az. I lost a specific play-style borne of a special character that never got a model, and that's totally the same thing as having the entire structure of your army that's been in place for 5+ years removed for no other reason than to push a new Tactical Marine kit!
You must know that's nonsense. Anyone that A: Has a substantial BA army and B: hasn't thrown it in to a recklessly unsupervised industrial vat of acid after reading this news will just pick up the 10 tactical marines they need for almost nothing on ebay/kijiji or dig them out from the couch.
The new kit is for new players and new BA recruits.
While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?
How fast do the small format codex books come out after initial release? BA are not my main army, (Dark Angles are my Space Marine flavor of choice...) but am interested in maybe doing an Angels of Death (yay 2nd ed!) list that includes a detachment from both. I like the idea of the smaller book as well...takes up a little less shelf room, easier to cart around, etc.
Las wrote: And the only reason it was their thing to begin with (for ONE book I might add) was because of a much maligned codex author with a propensity for writing poor fluff and mono build codeces. This is a fix imo.
Does the reason matter?
Let's look at the facts instead of arguments, opinions and reasons.
The fact is that I own 5 Boltgun Tactical Marines because the rest of them are used as Death Company or Devastator Squads: I have 40 JP-Troops at the moment.
Another fact is that many people sold their Tactical Marines because to them the Blood Angels are about Jump Pack-Troops.
Most people don't "complain" because Blood Angels lost their ASM-troops.
Most people "complain" because they have a crapload of models that they can't really use any more AND because they now need to play units they don't want to play.
The last time I played a Tactical Marine was three years ago, I decided that I didn't like them and I got rid of it.
Another thing is that everybody was happy we'd finally have a cost-reduction on ASM.
In fact they were made more expensive since we have a Troop-tax now.
It's a crappy way of GW to promote Unbound and push their new sales.
It gets even worse when people are actually hoping for a 40 euro supplement to fix this nonsense.
And the worst part of all: People telling you that you shouldn't be whining when GW just invalidated half your army and forces you to spend another €34 on models you don't actually want.
Yes you have a troop tax, just like everybody else if you would like to play battle forged. Also it doesn't make sense that GW could some how be pushing unbound AND battle forged at the same time by introducing compulsory troops(unless you want to call it, I dunno, pushing the game itself as it's rules are written).
Not to mention that you can still use all those jump infantry without having to go unbound. You can keep your list and play unbound or run cheap troops units as a tax for forged. Either way you can still use all those models.
Las wrote: And the only reason it was their thing to begin with (for ONE book I might add) was because of a much maligned codex author with a propensity for writing poor fluff and mono build codeces. This is a fix imo.
Does the reason matter?
Let's look at the facts instead of arguments, opinions and reasons.
The fact is that I own 5 Boltgun Tactical Marines because the rest of them are used as Death Company or Devastator Squads: I have 40 JP-Troops at the moment.
Another fact is that many people sold their Tactical Marines because to them the Blood Angels are about Jump Pack-Troops.
Most people don't "complain" because Blood Angels lost their ASM-troops.
Most people "complain" because they have a crapload of models that they can't really use any more AND because they now need to play units they don't want to play.
The last time I played a Tactical Marine was three years ago, I decided that I didn't like them and I got rid of it.
Another thing is that everybody was happy we'd finally have a cost-reduction on ASM.
In fact they were made more expensive since we have a Troop-tax now.
It's a crappy way of GW to promote Unbound and push their new sales.
It gets even worse when people are actually hoping for a 40 euro supplement to fix this nonsense.
And the worst part of all: People telling you that you shouldn't be whining when GW just invalidated half your army and forces you to spend another €34 on models you don't actually want.
This is all true but consider this, if you have so many jump pack troops at the moment then you're not going to be buying any more in order to play the army in the same way. I know it's not a very popular move but at the end of the day GW is a business and they need to sell kits or books in order to make money. They are only going to make money if they give you a reason to buy other stuff. I know it seems like a money grabbing move but it's purely business from their point of view and there is no ill intent towards the player that some people in this thread think there is.
Yes we lost assault marines as troops but surely we all expected that with a new release we would have to spend some money in order to continue in our hobby. Now we know what to spend the money on and that's the new tactical squad.
For players who played BA because they specifically wanted a Jump Troop force I feel for you and I understand that the army doesn't work in the way you like any more. However I can't tell you what to do, you need to decide for yourselves what you want. Either it's change and adapt and continue to play Blood Angels, move to another army that better represents the fit i.e. Raven Guard or perhaps even stop playing all together if that is your wish.
Rippy wrote: While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?
because most of the changes for the past 20 years have only been minor changes in wargear, etc. Not a fundamental change as ASM from troops to FA. I built the core of my army around Assault Marines, of varying styles (jump packs and non) And to basically have my entire army gutted, I don't have the money to go out and buy $400 worth of models to rebuild and adjust my army into a coherent build...
I actually liked the Matt Ward dex, as I bought it the day it was released and fell in love with it. Sure, his fluff was bad, but his rules were good, you cannot deny that.
Matt ward rightfully caught a lot of flakk for his fluff (which was awful) and his 5th ed grey knights (which were worse than the abortion that is the current eldar). His rules in 5th ed space marines, BA, and necrons were actually really cool and strong.
But lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Losing assault marines as troops seems to be the only real negative thus far. Granted, its big, but having an army that has old furious charge, and half of it with FNP, is gonna be awesome. I cant think of a non daemon prince unit that can take a charge from death co or sanguinary guard. Hell, if you run the math, a tac marine squad with flamer+combi+heavy flamer can shoot into a squad of thunderwolves and then stand a good chance of WINNING combat when they charge.
Thats right. Our tac marines beat thunderwolves in a fight.
Oh man I would like to see this one worked out. In saying that we're not very likely to get the charge on them but still it's only a basic tac squad.
Crimson Devil wrote: If you build your army to that edition's codex then you will always be screwed over by GW. Happens every time. Build your army with the long view over multiple editions.
Well, better not buy Ork Boyz for Orks because they could move them to elite.
Let's also not buy Terminators for my DA, who knows what will happen to those.
I also own Necrons, should I get rid of my Immortals because they might want to push Warriors as the only Troop-slot?
In short: People are pissed.
People have the right to be pissed, because they aren't able to use the majority of their models.
I was happy because I knew ASM would get a point-cost reduction.
But that is out of the window because I now have to pay a Tactical-tax before I can play those guys.
That is NOT why I play Blood Angels and I am waiting for some FW-model or dataslate to fix this gak.
You can be as pissed as you want be. Why didn't you protect yourself? If you deal with GW then you have to expect this stuff.
I've been taking Plague Marines as Core/Troops since 2nd edition.
This is not the sort of thing you expect. You expect them to expand the Troops options rather than decrease them. And in the case of the Blood Angels? They straight up halved them.
This was not like other codexes that had come before, where the 'alternative' Troops were as a result of a Special Character enabling Force Org shenanigans. These were straight up Troops. And Troops that had persisted over two editions and two versions of a Codex. I think it's fair to say they established themselves in that slot. It's worrying that GW suddenly decide to force people into 'Unbound'.
But it's in the core rules! - I hear some argue this.
That may be the case - it's still not allowed at GW's own tournaments, or the vast majority of other tournaments out there. For something that's in the rules it says a lot, when Tyranids can take an allied Knight but an Unbound List is a no go.
rollawaythestone wrote: So, as a recent purchaser of the Deathstorm boxed set, I am now grappling with the fact that I might want to start a Blood Angels army.
With that in consideration, I am wondering what people think of running Raphen's Death Company and Cassor the Damned as their two minimum troop requirements (350 points total)?
Their weapon load-out seems a bit schizophrenic, but it does allow for running Death Company in the troop slot.
If i were to start Blood Angels, am I better off building the Death Company as part of a larger squad, or outfitting them as outlined for Raphen's squad?
You're probably better off just paying the troops tax for a scout squad and then maybe Cassor the damned. It would be cheaper. The problem with that specific DC build is that it's too full of special weapons for a 5 man squad. Four out of the 5 guys have something and so any losses are big hits against that unit.
If the upcoming Archangels detachment doesn't appeal to me, I'll probably put Cassor the Damned in 1 troops slot and a flamer-heavy tac squad in a Rhino in the other.
I'm excited for these changes frankly. Two boxes of tac marines and my old army is up to speed. I would rather have msu shooty marines in rhinos than assaulty. For 140 points I can get 3 bolter marines, one infernous pistol sergeant and a melta gun marine in a fast rhino. Army wide initiative +1 and furious charge is great considering we no longer have to pay a priest tax. With cheaper troops and an extra elite slot I'm thinking some fun army builds are around the corner. By the way rules are dropping right now in 4chan.
Rippy wrote: While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?
because most of the changes for the past 20 years have only been minor changes in wargear, etc. Not a fundamental change as ASM from troops to FA. I built the core of my army around Assault Marines, of varying styles (jump packs and non) And to basically have my entire army gutted, I don't have the money to go out and buy $400 worth of models to rebuild and adjust my army into a coherent build...
The concept of BA's as a heavily jump-pack oriented force is relatively recent, and their availability of jump pack units as troops only came about in 2007 and the heavy emphasis on BA's as something heavily "flying" oriented only came about in 2010. From their mid-90's Angels of Death nearly 20 years ago book up until almost 5th edition, Assault Marines weren't treated any differently than they were for any other Marine chapter.
th3maninblak wrote: Assuming 4 hits per flamer, thats 3 wounds from flamers and 2 from heavy flamers (5 so far). Then 7 pistols, which will do another wound (up to 6). This equates to one dead thunderwolf after armor saves. Marines charge in with 21 attacks at str and init5, hitting 10.5 and wounding 5.25, rounding out to another dead wolf before they swing. Wolves hit back 15 times, hit 7.5, wound with around 4 (rending once) and killing 2 marines total.
Ok, so not WIN combat. But tying with one of the best assault units in the game is nothing to sneeze at.
Now sanguinary guard with a banner is a different story. 20 master crafted attacks will hit 12 times, wound 6, killing 3 wolves before they swing back. MAYBE losing a guy in return.
People take bare thunderwolves?
Well their invulnerable saves are 3++ as well I believe, so it doesn't really matter if they are taking armour saves or invulnerables but I suppose if they are running throwaway wolves then that will bring the losses down a bit before hitting back.
Rippy wrote: While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?
because most of the changes for the past 20 years have only been minor changes in wargear, etc. Not a fundamental change as ASM from troops to FA. I built the core of my army around Assault Marines, of varying styles (jump packs and non) And to basically have my entire army gutted, I don't have the money to go out and buy $400 worth of models to rebuild and adjust my army into a coherent build...
In function it's the same as the other players who built their armies around unlocking units as troops by using characters. OK those units may not have been ipso facto in the troops slot of the codex but those players still bought stuff to base an army around that theme and then that theme changed in the next codex and was removed. This is something that is basically pretty much happening in every new release from now on.
GW changing rules to require Tacticals in the same week they release a new Tactical kit specific to that army?
Yeah. I'm sure that's a total coincidence.
It's obviously not a coincedence. I'm saying it's not a trick to force veteran players to buy the new tactical box.
It's a release aimed at people that are picking up new BA armies that will need the new kit. They could just as easily have made a new BA Assault kit, whatever the reason for the change I don't think it was just to screw with people.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm more curious about the BA Terminator kit from a 'why?' perspective. There doesn't seem to be any particular incentive to pick them up unless it's just a kit you like.
Have GW been able to drop tooling costs for new molds dramatically?
Rippy wrote: While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?
I think a better option is to introduce something new and cool that I would want to buy. Not force me to buy because my army was invalidated. Eldar got Wraithknights, 2 flyers, and wraithgaurd and they were one of the most crowded books to begin with. Space Marines got the hunter, stalker, and centurions. Tau got Riptides, Flyers, several SC. Space Wolves got a new dreadnought kit and 2 fliers. Blood Angels (and GK, DE) get no new units
I fail to see why removing options is a solid business plan. There isn't a single thing I'm excited about for this codex release. Tacticals are the most basic and boring unit and a poor choice for a codex launch. Who's really ever exciting to plop down tactical marines on the tabletop.
DO ITTOIT wrote: If the upcoming Archangels detachment doesn't appeal to me, I'll probably put Cassor the Damned in 1 troops slot and a flamer-heavy tac squad in a Rhino in the other.
I've decided on one tact squad in a drop pod with all the flamer goodies I can get in it. The second slot might be Cassor or it might be a second tactical squad in a rhino. Just not sure yet.
As for elites I think it has to be DC. They can now score objectives which is good and their cheapness with jump packs now will be great. Not to mention the psychic power which gives rage or +1 attack is going to be brutal on them. Imagine DC with 6 attacks each on the charge.
So this leaves HQ's as being a libby of some sort, perhaps Mephiston, a sanguinary priest as well and/or Dante since he is looking to be shaping up well too.
Rippy wrote: While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?
because most of the changes for the past 20 years have only been minor changes in wargear, etc. Not a fundamental change as ASM from troops to FA. I built the core of my army around Assault Marines, of varying styles (jump packs and non) And to basically have my entire army gutted, I don't have the money to go out and buy $400 worth of models to rebuild and adjust my army into a coherent build...
That's just untrue on the face of it. Giving Blood Angels assault squads as troops in the first place was a fundamental change, and it only happened ~7 years ago. Now they've taken that away, it's just bringing things back the way they were. I agree that it sucks to have things taken away, and I'd rather see GW give Blood Angels (and Dark Angels and all other codex-adherent marines) a way to run assault squads at least as your minimum two troops (because all of them have the units, organization, and doctrine to do it).
But let's also not pretend you have to spend $400 or whatever to play the game again. You can play Unbound (which sucks) or you can buy two boxes of scouts for, what, $45 total, or two new tactical boxes for ~$70 total, and round your force out a bit better anyway. And there are no shortage of slightly used tacticals on ebay.
It sucks and I sympathize. I hate when GW gives rules and then takes them away. But this isn't out of line with the fluff (or at least it's no more incorrect than the previous codex was), it isn't totally unexpected, and it isn't the end of the world if you still want to play the game.
Rippy wrote: While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?
I think a better option is to introduce something new and cool that I would want to buy. Not force me to buy because my army was invalidated. Eldar got Wraithknights, 2 flyers, and wraithgaurd and they were one of the most crowded books to begin with. Space Marines got the hunter, stalker, and centurions. Tau got Riptides, Flyers, several SC. Space Wolves got a new dreadnought kit and 2 fliers. Blood Angels (and GK, DE) get no new units
I fail to see why removing options is a solid business plan. There isn't a single thing I'm excited about for this codex release. Tacticals are the most basic and boring unit and a poor choice for a codex launch. Who's really ever exciting to plop down tactical marines on the tabletop.
GW literally can't keep introducing new things. The design space, especially for marine armies, is so damn crowded. New units have tended to be ugly, nonsensical, unnecessary, or a combination thereof more often than not. Trying desperately to cram in unneeded units just to give something to sell is how we ended up with Sanguinius Jr and Murder McMurderface and his Murderclaws of Murder. For what it's worth, trying to differentiate armies for the sake of being different is how Blood Angels ended up with assault squads as troops in the first place.
To bring up one of my favorite old saws, this is precisely why GW should not have axed all their specialist games, and why 40k should more properly be split into several separate games with different scopes. When you narrow your entire universe down to one game, you either converge your ruleset and army lists to a balanced product, where it stagnates, or you resort to changing rules for the sake of changing rules, repeatedly breaking the game in the process, and eventually run out of empty design space for new units.
What option do the DC get? How many models per unit? How many of their guys can upgrade weaponary? Can they by any chance get special weapons (praying for jump pack, relentless grav guns).
plastictrees wrote: I'm more curious about the BA Terminator kit from a 'why?' perspective. There doesn't seem to be any particular incentive to pick them up unless it's just a kit you like.
I'm guessing for the Archangels, which get more rules and wargear in the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus book.
Rippy wrote: While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?
because most of the changes for the past 20 years have only been minor changes in wargear, etc. Not a fundamental change as ASM from troops to FA. I built the core of my army around Assault Marines, of varying styles (jump packs and non) And to basically have my entire army gutted, I don't have the money to go out and buy $400 worth of models to rebuild and adjust my army into a coherent build...
It would cost $100 AUD for enough scouts to make your list legal again. Not $400.
I am dreading my CSM release, as my Plague Marines will probably be forced elites next release. Adapt and overcome. I will buy $100 worth of troop choices and move on.
Edit: correction $82, not 100 for two squads of scouts.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!
Not sure if joking.......
Cheap scoring unit. That is what they are.
That much I get and I'm fine with, he was talking about charging them into something .......and that's where I get confused haha
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!
Not sure if joking.......
Cheap scoring unit. That is what they are.
That much I get and I'm fine with, he was talking about charging them into something .......and that's where I get confused haha
It's actually pretty valid. I'm not saying you should charge as soon as you can with them, but with the WS system the way if is, they hit faster and harder than many much more expensive dedicated Assault units. 3 S5 I5 attacks a piece for 11 points is nothing to be sniffed at, throw in power sword on the Sergeant and you have a small unit with quite a nasty sting.
For those that have seen the book, sorry if this was already answered...can the BA scouts take the landspeeder Storm transport? I was bummed when it didn't show up in the Dark Angels book, hoping I can take one with the Blood Angels.
Tacticals are the most basic and boring unit and a poor choice for a codex launch. Who's really ever exciting to plop down tactical marines on the tabletop.
Ya, it is sort of like buying a refrigerator. Sure you need it, but it's tough to get excited about it. Especially when you'd rather spend the money on a big TV.
GW literally can't keep introducing new things. The design space, especially for marine armies, is so damn crowded. New units have tended to be ugly, nonsensical, unnecessary, or a combination thereof more often than not. Trying desperately to cram in unneeded units just to give something to sell is how we ended up with Sanguinius Jr and Murder McMurderface and his Murderclaws of Murder. For what it's worth, trying to differentiate armies for the sake of being different is how Blood Angels ended up with assault squads as troops in the first place.
As a DA player I couldn't agree more - DW Knights and RW Black Knights are precisely such unnecessary additions in attempt to 'justify' separate Codex. I don't personally use them, I don't like their lore or wargear and I'd be happy if they didn't exist. I wouldn't even mind that much if DA was rolled into regular SM Codex, really.
GW literally can't keep introducing new things. The design space, especially for marine armies, is so damn crowded. New units have tended to be ugly, nonsensical, unnecessary, or a combination thereof more often than not. Trying desperately to cram in unneeded units just to give something to sell is how we ended up with Sanguinius Jr and Murder McMurderface and his Murderclaws of Murder. For what it's worth, trying to differentiate armies for the sake of being different is how Blood Angels ended up with assault squads as troops in the first place.
As a DA player I couldn't agree more - DW Knights and RW Black Knights are precisely such unnecessary additions in attempt to 'justify' separate Codex. I don't personally use them, I don't like their lore or wargear and I'd be happy if they didn't exist. I wouldn't even mind that much if DA was rolled into regular SM Codex, really.
Kinda true, kinda not.
They can always add in units from other books (like the Hunter or the Space Guppy), but you can't build a release around models that already exist, so it has to be done around new models. For BA's they'd certainly painted themselves into a corner. They already had Assault Marines, Elite Assault Marines and Elite Elite Assault Marines, so with so many jump packs about they'd already risen to the ceiling. Without inventing a whole new unit (like they did last time), or making another pointless aircraft, they had to do something.
So a new Tac Squad and a conversion kit for the Assault Terminator kit is it. I suspect that when it comes time to further ruin re-do the Dark Angels and Space Wolves we might see something similar, as they've used up the "invent new crap" thing for them - twice now with Wolves.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!
To be fair i think there is a bit to that.
with CC/Pistols that would be 15 attacks at st5 usually first would give many things a run for there monies. and even has a chance for some rear armor pens. If its like vanilla marines, have em with camo cloaks, CC/P start em out in cover and charge something vulnerable in there back field. could be interesting with a power maul sergeant to dump some wounds on some fools.
Its also a bonus if you distract with drop pods or some other T1 drops as well.
Edit: With a full unit being 30 attacks of ST5 death. dumping wounds on all the things.
Drop em in with a T1 Dread to really make em worry.
2nd Edition (Angels of Death 1996) The FOC didn't exist. All the squads were lumped together in the Squads category which was at least 25% of your army. Squads included DC, Terminators, Veteran Assault Marines, Assault Squad, Devastators, Scouts, Tacticals, and Bikes.
3rd Edition (1998) The FOC in the form we know now exists.
HQ:Hero, Chaplain, Librarian, Sanguinary High Priest, Corbulo, Dante, Mephiston, Lemartes, Tycho, Honor Guard, and Death Company (randomly generated)
Elites: Veteran Assault Squad, Furioso, Terminators, Veterans, Moriar
Troops: BA Scouts, Tacticals, SM Scouts (0-1)
FA: Assault Squad, Bike Squadron, Scout Bikes, Land Speeder Squadron, Land Speeder Tornado, Land Speeder Typhoon, Attack Bikes.
HS: Baal Predator, Devastators, Whirlwind, Pred Annihilator, Pred Destructor, Dreadnought, Land Raider, Vindicator
4th Edition (2007 Jervis WD dex)
HQ: Dante, Mephiston, Lemartes, Corbulo, Chaplain, Librarian (LD9!), Captain, Honor Guard
Elite: DC (really outside FOC), Terminators, Furioso (including DC dread), Dreadnought, Techmarines, Veteran Assault Squad, Scouts(!)
Troops: Assault Squad, Tacticals,
FA: Bikes, Attack Bikes, Land Speeders
HS: Baal Pred, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader, Devastators, Whirlwind, Predator, Vindicator
Dedicated Trans: Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod
Tacticals are the most basic and boring unit and a poor choice for a codex launch. Who's really ever exciting to plop down tactical marines on the tabletop.
Ya, it is sort of like buying a refrigerator. Sure you need it, but it's tough to get excited about it. Especially when you'd rather spend the money on a big TV.
Nah, we never really needed tacticals when ASM were still troops. They always did better than tacs. Bad comparison.
But nevermind, lets move on. Complaining won´t change anything.
If they get the land speeder storm they'd be pretty awesome. Remember, it's open topped so it is an assault vehicle... with a weapon that has a chance to blind their target so they can hit on a 3+.
So... For the largest proportion of the game's history, Assault Squads have been Fast Attack and not Troops. DC were also Elites for most of the game's history as well. Learned something new.
I still am curious if you can field 30 DC in one Elite slot. Because that is going to be awesome if so.
You know, like they've had since ObSec became a thing.
Stop whining Az. I lost a specific play-style borne of a special character that never got a model, and that's totally the same thing as having the entire structure of your army that's been in place for 5+ years removed for no other reason than to push a new Tactical Marine kit!
You know, if you ever want to get around to responding to my point about what the actual, functional difference is between someone losing the ability to use the models/army they paid for because of a FoC-shifting option being removed, and a unit changing slots, feel free.
Part of it, at least, is that people should know better by now. A special character that never got a model suddenly vanishing (or losing that ability) isn't unusual. If anything, looking over GW's releases over the past few years it is something that's to be expected. Whereas a sudden change in a core structure of an army that's been around for 7 years... well that's a little different.
As I said, the equivalent isn't losing the ability to take Nobz or Wolf Guard as troops. The equivalent would be moving Grey Hunters or Shoota Boyz to Elites (actually I didn't say that, I used Kabalite Warriors and Wyches in my original example, but same diff).
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: While Red__Thirst's opinion certainly isn't popular, it's kind of a good point. Blood Angels never should have been pushed towards all jump packs all the time. It grossly distorted the fluff - not because Blood Angels couldn't or wouldn't run an all-assault force, but because it completely skewed people's perception of the army. Vanilla marines have every bit as much a right to run assault squads as troops (exact same codex-adherent company structure, and other codex chapters rely heavily on jump packs, like Raven Guard). Yet they lack that option. Meanwhile the Blood Angels have been twisted into a weird place by years of people assuming that anything but 100% assault squads isn't a Blood Angels army, when in reality ~60% of Blood Angels are tactical marines, same as everyone else. Making their codex a one-trick pony like that did the Blood Angels no favors.
However, I think neutering entire builds is never a good idea. The correct course would be somewhere in the middle - both codexes should have the option to run assault squads to fill the minimum troop requirement, but it should require a captain or chapter master with a jump pack. Likewise, vanilla marines should have the option of running a jump pack honor guard or command squad (because again, the 8th company is a thing). Blood Angels are a codex chapter - with a few unique characters, chapter-wide rules, wargear options, and a unique unit, they could be rolled into the vanilla codex. I don't think it's a bad thing that GW has moved them in that direction, but I do think they should have met in the middle on assault squads (where all codex chapters should be) instead of removing it outright.
Exalted sir......I honesty am infuriated by no assault marines as troop, however I could have honestly dealt with a meeting of the minds to allow them as an option if I brought an SC or a captain with a jump pack at least then those individuals who chose to make the all jump pack army had the choice to continue running the army they fell in love with, and then it would have easily fallen inline with the BA fluff of them preferring airial assaults and a one line of fluff could have been written somewhere statin BA have more jump packs available to them because of "blank" but instead they really did pretty much completely screw over ALOT of people.
Something I'm curious about that not many people have brought up, will BA Assault Marines keep Meltaguns and Flamers as weapons options given that they too were introduced in the Ward-dex and GW seems to be removing most of his changes. Those weapons (and the ability to take Razorbacks) were not available in the 4E WD list that initially made ASM's troops.
What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Part of it, at least, is that people should know better by now. A special character that never got a model suddenly vanishing (or losing that ability) isn't unusual. If anything, looking over GW's releases over the past few years it is something that's to be expected. Whereas a sudden change in a core structure of an army that's been around for 7 years... well that's a little different.
As I said, the equivalent isn't losing the ability to take Nobz or Wolf Guard as troops. The equivalent would be moving Grey Hunters or Shoota Boyz to Elites (actually I didn't say that, I used Kabalite Warriors and Wyches in my original example, but same diff).
Yes, I do understand the basic assertion; they are two different things. The effect however is the same - people spent money building an army, that army is no longer usable without modification(or in some cases, as you point out with the GWLotD list, at all, until FW's latest IA). If that's the core reason why people are(to an extent, justifiably) upset by GW shifting AM out of Troops, I just think it's a distinction without a difference.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!
Not sure if joking.......
Cheap scoring unit. That is what they are.
That much I get and I'm fine with, he was talking about charging them into something .......and that's where I get confused haha
They would be a decent unit actually if take them with combat weapon and pistol. At I5 you'll be striking before other marines with 3 attacks each model. For 55pts that's pretty good, especially if we get the LSS, but I actually doubt we'll get it since the guy said we got no new units although there is a slight chance he might have missed it. We didn't get anything else from C:SM though.
casvalremdeikun wrote: What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
The explanation is in your own quote. A jump-pack focused army is not the same as an all jump-pack army. apple != orange, why is that irritating to you?
I noticed two pages back someone mentioned they use C:BA to represent Jump Pack RavenGuard... perhaps this is one small reason why GW have done this, to force Ravenguard players to use the vanilla Codex? IIRC wasn't there something similar done to DA players wanting to use the superior White Scar bike rules?
casvalremdeikun wrote: What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
The explanation is in your own quote. A jump-pack focused army is not the same as an all jump-pack army. apple != orange, why is that irritating to you?
Because people are acting like the JP focused army is dead. It isn't.
casvalremdeikun wrote: What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
The explanation is in your own quote. A jump-pack focused army is not the same as an all jump-pack army. apple != orange, why is that irritating to you?
Because people are acting like the JP focused army is dead. It isn't.
Indeed. Let's wait and see how many of those ~18 new detachments and formations~ in the Exterminatus book (plus extra content in the Dec 20th WD) allow use of more jump-pack units. I remember people bitching about Gargoyles not getting a Troops FOC-switching ability in January, then a few weeks later they were the first unit to get ObSec. Anyone who thinks an army lead by Dante isn't going to get at least one jump-themed datasheet is being way too dramatic.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Part of it, at least, is that people should know better by now. A special character that never got a model suddenly vanishing (or losing that ability) isn't unusual. If anything, looking over GW's releases over the past few years it is something that's to be expected. Whereas a sudden change in a core structure of an army that's been around for 7 years... well that's a little different.
As I said, the equivalent isn't losing the ability to take Nobz or Wolf Guard as troops. The equivalent would be moving Grey Hunters or Shoota Boyz to Elites (actually I didn't say that, I used Kabalite Warriors and Wyches in my original example, but same diff).
you mean like tyranids where warriors have been in troops then hq then elites and now troops again or genestealers troops then elites then troops with the broodlord being an hq now a nid sargent. Or tge carnifex elites and heavy now just heavy. Its happened before and will happen again. And adding a couple of cheap scout squads for back field holding is not going to ruin your army.
casvalremdeikun wrote: What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
The explanation is in your own quote. A jump-pack focused army is not the same as an all jump-pack army. apple != orange, why is that irritating to you?
Because people are acting like the JP focused army is dead. It isn't.
They're not saying a jump-pack focused army is dead. They're saying an all jump-pack army is dead. It is.
Bla_Ze wrote: Who cares about AM being tropps? I have played since 2E and i certainly dont... What troubles me is what happens with the honour guard
Can you explain what the difference between the Blood Angels Honor Guard and the Codex: Space Marines Command Squad is? Is it just the ability to take a Jump Pack?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Yeah, a Dante led formation is inevitable. Assuming Sang guard are still 0-1, there are a few invalidated armies around due to his old special rules.
They are sure to sort that out.
Anyway, can someone with the codex please list out the options for a death company. max squad size, weapon options, do they have sergeants etc etc.
The Black Library Blog shows some more images from the Digital Blood Angels Codex
Automatically Appended Next Post: It seems you missed the codex leaks on 4chan last night. It was from the english book this time
...the Storm Raven *is* FA.
..., and the Vindicator (1XX pts barebones) *can* take overcharged engines for 10 pts.
I'm sitting here with the english book right in front of me. Vindicator has the [fast] option as the first option, right before siege shields.
All army-wide special rules outside of Combat Squads are gone. Everybody has Furious Charge.
Detachment has 4 elites, one of which is mandatory, warlord reroll and +1I on the charge for everything.
Warlord traits: Rampage, +1I, Mastercrafted for a weapon, Adamantium Will, Fearless for EVERY friendly imperial unit within 12", reroll reserves and scatter for Jump, Flyer and Skimmer.
Relics: Fear at -2Ld, one free strategic warlord trait, MC plasma pistol, no-frills AP2 melee weapon, jump pack that allows to reroll scatter and mishap & forces Interceptors to only snapfire at wearer, force maul that allows rerolling 1s one psy tests at the danger of taking a wound if the reroll is also a 1.
Sanguinary Discipline: +d3I and A for a character, morale check at -2Ld, grants Rage or +1A if you already have that, 5++ for unit, some gakky focussed witchfire, a S8 AP1 Beam Lance and one that moves a unit 12" ignoring terrain, but counts as moved for shooting and can't charge.
Most rhino-chassis vehicles lost fast and must now buy it as vehicle gear for xx pts.
Jump Packs are now x pts per model for units.
Assault squads are FA now.
Vanguard & Sternguard are now the same as the C:SM ones.
Death Company are elite now. Trade 1WS for Rage.
Lemartes is a seperate elite choice now. Fury Unbound is once per game now.
Sanguinary Priests are now HQ, one guy per slot. Give FnP and +1WS.
Corbulo has 6" aura of +1WS/I.
Tycho lost all melee weapons and special ammo.
Astorath's axe now causes ID on a 6 to-wound and is two-handed, but is otherwise a poweraxe.
Dreads are now split into Librarian(HQ), Furioso (Elite), Death Company (Elite) and staddard (elite).
Furioso Force Halberd is a powerfist with Force but without Specialist Weapon, so no +1A.
DC dread lost 1WS and 1A.
Furioso is NOT venerable.
Sanguinary Guard maxes out at 10, death masks grant Fear.
Tacticals may take a heavy flamer for a heavy weapon and a grav gun for a special weapon.
inferno pistol and hand flamer are availiable to all characters but scout sergeants.
Dante is a LoW and got a massive buff. Axe is now S+2 AP2 Mastercrafted. Dante gets Eternal Warrior, a free tactical warlord trait on top of his Descent of Angels and a 6" fear bubble.
Seth is a LoW and has Rage, Rampage and causes two hits for any 6 rolled to hit.
Land Raiders lost Deep Strike and are now Heavy Support.
Warhams-77 wrote: The Black Library Blog shows some more images from the Digital Blood Angels Codex
Automatically Appended Next Post: It seems you missed the codex leaks on 4chan last night. It was from the english book this time
...the Storm Raven *is* FA.
..., and the Vindicator (1XX pts barebones) *can* take overcharged engines for 10 pts.
I'm sitting here with the english book right in front of me. Vindicator has the [fast] option as the first option, right before siege shields.
All army-wide special rules outside of Combat Squads are gone. Everybody has Furious Charge.
Detachment has 4 elites, one of which is mandatory, warlord reroll and +1I on the charge for everything.
Warlord traits: Rampage, +1I, Mastercrafted for a weapon, Adamantium Will, Fearless for EVERY friendly imperial unit within 12", reroll reserves and scatter for Jump, Flyer and Skimmer.
Relics: Fear at -2Ld, one free strategic warlord trait, MC plasma pistol, no-frills AP2 melee weapon, jump pack that allows to reroll scatter and mishap & forces Interceptors to only snapfire at wearer, force maul that allows rerolling 1s one psy tests at the danger of taking a wound if the reroll is also a 1.
Sanguinary Discipline: +d3I and A for a character, morale check at -2Ld, grants Rage or +1A if you already have that, 5++ for unit, some gakky focussed witchfire, a S8 AP1 Beam Lance and one that moves a unit 12" ignoring terrain, but counts as moved for shooting and can't charge.
Most rhino-chassis vehicles lost fast and must now buy it as vehicle gear for xx pts.
Jump Packs are now x pts per model for units.
Assault squads are FA now.
Vanguard & Sternguard are now the same as the C:SM ones.
Death Company are elite now. Trade 1WS for Rage.
Lemartes is a seperate elite choice now. Fury Unbound is once per game now.
Sanguinary Priests are now HQ, one guy per slot. Give FnP and +1WS.
Corbulo has 6" aura of +1WS/I.
Tycho lost all melee weapons and special ammo.
Astorath's axe now causes ID on a 6 to-wound and is two-handed, but is otherwise a poweraxe.
Dreads are now split into Librarian(HQ), Furioso (Elite), Death Company (Elite) and staddard (elite).
Furioso Force Halberd is a powerfist with Force but without Specialist Weapon, so no +1A.
DC dread lost 1WS and 1A.
Furioso is NOT venerable.
Sanguinary Guard maxes out at 10, death masks grant Fear.
Tacticals may take a heavy flamer for a heavy weapon and a grav gun for a special weapon.
inferno pistol and hand flamer are availiable to all characters but scout sergeants.
Dante is a LoW and got a massive buff. Axe is now S+2 AP2 Mastercrafted. Dante gets Eternal Warrior, a free tactical warlord trait on top of his Descent of Angels and a 6" fear bubble.
Seth is a LoW and has Rage, Rampage and causes two hits for any 6 rolled to hit.
Land Raiders lost Deep Strike and are now Heavy Support.
Hmmm. Well, Stormraven being FA means I will have an HS Slot freed up so I can run another tank (I plan on Vindicator, TriLasPred, and Baal Pred). I like that the Vindi CAN be fast. I don't think I like Lemartes being a separate Elite is something I like. DSing Land Raiders was bound to go, no surprise there.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Hmmm. Well, Stormraven being FA means I will have an HS Slot freed up so I can run another tank (I plan on Vindicator, TriLasPred, and Baal Pred). I like that the Vindi CAN be fast. I don't think I like Lemartes being a separate Elite is something I like. DSing Land Raiders was bound to go, no surprise there.
Unless Lemartes is seperate in the same way that Lukas the Trickster is seperate from Blood Claws,if it's like that we don't need to worry
Bla_Ze wrote: Who cares about AM being tropps? I have played since 2E and i certainly dont... What troubles me is what happens with the honour guard
totally agree, ive also played since 2nd andam not worried about the ASM slot swap, i feel the change taking the BA back to bemore like i have them pictured in my head, we can still take 7 squads of jumpers as others have stated..
can no one think of the honor guard!!!! my beautiful gold paint jobs are getting stripped and painted black :-(
casvalremdeikun wrote: Hmmm. Well, Stormraven being FA means I will have an HS Slot freed up so I can run another tank (I plan on Vindicator, TriLasPred, and Baal Pred). I like that the Vindi CAN be fast. I don't think I like Lemartes being a separate Elite is something I like. DSing Land Raiders was bound to go, no surprise there.
Unless Lemartes is seperate in the same way that Lukas the Trickster is seperate from Blood Claws,if it's like that we don't need to worry
Ooo, I would really like that. I really like Lemartes's character, would love to put him in my army.
Bla_Ze wrote: Who cares about AM being tropps? I have played since 2E and i certainly dont... What troubles me is what happens with the honour guard
totally agree, ive also played since 2nd andam not worried about the ASM slot swap, i feel the change taking the BA back to bemore like i have them pictured in my head, we can still take 7 squads of jumpers as others have stated..
can no one think of the honor guard!!!! my beautiful gold paint jobs are getting stripped and painted black :-(
Many have only played since 5th or 3rd, and so actually DO care. Plus, not many actually care about Honour Guard, because Command Squads are better with multiple special weapons, and Sanguinary are better jumpers and guards with their 2+ save and power weapons all around.
You say "we can still take 7 Jumper Squads"... C:SM can take 6. Not exactly a major leg up in that department, especially as one such unit is Honour Guard that are pretty poor points sinks in comparison to vehicles or other JP units.
I'm probably in the minority, but I'm happy that the've done tacticals for BA, as it gives them a distinctive look. Too often, GW neglect the base of the army to concentrate on the fancy stuff (see toomb king and eldar), so I hope that this trend contnues.
Warhams-77 wrote: It seems you missed the codex leaks on 4chan last night. It was from the english book this time
...the Storm Raven *is* FA.
If so, why is it missing from that army builder screenshot?
Good point, and I'm still skeptical about some of this info as well. I quoted what was posted at 4chan and asked for verification when it was different to the spanish leaks on warseer. He was well-mannered, mostly friendly and also checked the book again several times. We should get more from other sources soon. Until then, still rumors not facts
. A guy can't try and offer suggestions and draw parallels logically without being called a "colossal idiot" I guess, huh?
evastator split.
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