casvalremdeikun wrote:
Does anyone get the idea that the teams that worked on Deathstorm we're using the old codex and some notes about the new one?

That, or they saw the nerdrage train a-comin' around the bend and figured the Deathstorm stuff might mollify it somewhat.

As Vaktathi said, the info so far seems very much in line with recent codex updates. What's more, it also mostly seems reasonable to me, and also potentially quite good depending on how points costs come in.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BeeCee wrote:
one thing to note, if you want to take the squad from deathstorm, they are listed as troops. same for the DC dread.

Question: Would the worldwide +1I make Power Fists and Thunder Hammmers hit at I2 or would they still be I1?

Considering that Cassor the Damned is pretty much your average DC Dread, putting him in troops won't hurt at all.

Does anyone get the idea that the teams that worked on Deathstorm we're using the old codex and some notes about the new one?

It goes multipliers, additions, set values.

So in the case you're asking, they'd get their I boosted to 5, then unwieldy would set it at 1. (Or do they just strike at the I1 step but not actually modify the I characteristic of the model? Either way, you're going at 1.)

Ah okay. So Raphen's squad's two I1 weapons kinda sucks. I can't decide what I want to do with them. They may actually be built a little different and go in Elites. Regardless, Cassor the Damned will be built and used as is. If he is the only way to get a Dread in Troops, I am taking it.

But yeah, totally waiting to see if they will do a Buy This Supplement To Actually Play Your Army like they did with almost every other army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has it been said if Vanguard Veterans are still Fast Attack or if they have been moved into the WAY overcrowded Elites?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Has it been said if Vanguard Veterans are still Fast Attack or if they have been moved into the WAY overcrowded Elites?

They're exactly the same as they are in Codex: Space Marines, but with the addition of Furious Charge.

 BrokenRecord wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Has it been said if Vanguard Veterans are still Fast Attack or if they have been moved into the WAY overcrowded Elites?

They're exactly the same as they are in Codex: Space Marines, but with the addition of Furious Charge.

So... IF I ever get any, they will probably be built as an Assault Squad so they don't use up an Elite slot.

On the bright side, I am probably going to save a ton of money now.

Well...... really glad I wainted to build some of the guys from the Box set until I got info. Cause I already have 30 Jump marines ready to roll and wont need more than that now. I have more than enough DC to fill elite slots, that they must now share with other good elite units ( which is a bummer).

The Good- Dante is awesome ...and sadly almost an auto include.*WL traits aren't horrible * Physic powers seem decent to good * Relics seem pretty nice * +1int is nice. *Memphiston came out alright or at least didn't get beaten with a Nerf Hammer to the point of being unusable.*Tactical Marines get good options (however this is clearly just to sell kits) *Decent point drops on some models (that we know so far)

The Bad- +1int and +1str is only good if you charge and many opponents already know to charge you first if you get close enough * loss of re-roll to wound on Chaplain ( except Astorath) * DC and DC dread into elites(making this crowded) * loss of Land Raider Transports * Baal predator in HS ( now making this crowded) * Loss of DOA

The Ugly- * Priests into HQ ( if there is no modifiers for this) and the sin of all sins for BA players Assault Marines no longer troops, basically gutting the feel of our entire army and only lending credence to those who want BA folded into the Vanilla Dex.


Im not all doom and gloom, there is good in there and some other things I can live with easily and just need to adjust my style too. However gutting the entire feel of our army .....yea that hurts.

Oh joy, according to this, my favorite army just got ruined. Fun times. Still hoping for an April fools shout.

I've got like 80 assault marines that I can't even use half of in a list now. Maybe I can paint half of them black to use as DC.

Still utterly stupid that I have to put down a 10 tactical marine tax when running a jump army.

Got 8 priests already, and no room for them in a force org anymore.

I guess ima have to start convincing people that unbound "isn't that bad" so I can have my core troops back. Oh, and try to get hq's that are stupidly marked as lords of war to just count as hq's.
Let the house ruling commence!

 BlackArmour wrote:
I'm not all doom and gloom, there is good in there and some other things I can live with easily and just need to adjust my style too. However gutting the entire feel of our army .....yea that hurts.

I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you. A lot of this really stinks, but there is a lot of good too; I'm just extremely worried about the crowding in all of the areas except for Troops; we have a ton of units wedged into a very limited number of slots. Still, I think I will be able to adjust my play style to fit the new feel of the army.

I have to say though, the biggest kick in the nuts is the fact that I do think this makes a lot of the haters right; we really could just be rolled into the vanilla Space Marines dex without much effort


Exactly
v v v v v

Blood Angels are really no different from the average C:SM Chapter than Black Templars at this point.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Let the house ruling commence!

Unbound isn't houseruling.

Yep. Looks like there won't be an 8th or higher edition BA book, just a "make your own marines chapter" book with a tiny blurb about chapters that used to be so fleshed out.

I've never been more sure that GW are complete morons.

Apparently Corbulo now costs 120pts and gives units within 6" +1 WS & +1 Initiative... I can live with that, especially given that I am definitely running at a double CAD or a BA specific Detatchment + Formations

Plenty of spots for all the HQs and Elites

I don't have the old dex in front of me but didn't the jump pack piece of wargear actually grant DOA? Is there any mention of the jump pack adding a bonus this time around?

I can see a lot of people being upset about assault marines no longer being troops, but shoot, saying that ruins the army?
Blood Angels don't have any more assault marines than any other codex chapter, back in 3rd ed they weren't troop choices, and that was arguably when Blood Angels were at their best.

I'm honestly more excited about tacticals being good again, and then being able to use my assault marines to support them.

 pretre wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Let the house ruling commence!

Unbound isn't houseruling.

When you already have the well-entrenched standard house rule of "no unbound," it's pretty much gonna be the same process though. :(

Also I guess I can drop a lot of things from my 40k wish list. The land raider thing sucks too.

Tpiddy wrote:
I don't have the old dex in front of me but didn't the jump pack piece of wargear actually grant DOA? Is there any mention of the jump pack adding a bonus this time around?

Yes it did, and no, there isn't. DoA is a Warlord Trait ONLY now (and Dante has it automatically).

 Vaktathi wrote:
Everything so far looks to be about what anyone should have expected if you'd paid any attention to the CSM, DA, SW, and GK releases, no big surprises at all barring assault marines.

This is a consequence of the previous book going rather full-ham overboard in some areas (e.g. more access to heavy armor in more FoC slots than any other army including IG, etc). There was going to be some drastic scaling back and a lot of the niche-build armies aren't going to come through intact, just as things like Vendetta-spam IG armies didn't either.

On top of that, the BA's have always been a relatively Codex-adherent chapter, they don't have more assault marines than anyone else. I understand the imagery and differentiation GW went for with the WD list and the Ward-dex, and even I'm surprised they're dropping the Assault Marines as Troops, but I can see where they're coming from for it.

From the looks of it though, they're taking into account that Elites are very crowded, and the army-wide Init bonus will be very handy indeed against opposing MEQ/Eldar/Daemon foes.

Ultimately, perhaps aside from the change to Assault Marines, I don't think anyone should be surprised at all by most of these changes. We'll see if the expanded Elites allowance and Init bonus makes up for the removal/relocation of other options.

Pretttty much. I was worried that BA might end up being top-tier, but now I figure they'll be closer to DA, maybe just below SW. Losing Assault Marines from troops is a pretty massive nerf and flavour-killer, even if it is way closer to the fluff.

Really though, the book looks like it'll still be pretty effective in the end. Even if you aren't running one of the better detachments, take min-Tac squads and then spam the crap out of your FA and Elite slots. Armour saturation lists are still looking pretty good.

 Walnuts wrote:
I can see a lot of people being upset about assault marines no longer being troops, but shoot, saying that ruins the army?
Blood Angels don't have any more assault marines than any other codex chapter, back in 3rd ed they weren't troop choices, and that was arguably when Blood Angels were at their best.

I'm honestly more excited about tacticals being good again, and then being able to use my assault marines to support them.

Im pretty sure tacticals are about as mediocre as they have always been and always will be.

furious charge on a bunch of men wont really do too much.

Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

I can understand that people feel the army lost the flavor, I agree. In my mind BA were jump marines.

But i don't really see how assault marines were horribly competitive anyways, often times people just used them san jump packs to spam cheap transports. With the cheaper tactical squads, you are getting pretty much the same thing here.

So from an army power standpoint, i think the army will be better, if anything just bringing the unit costs down to what SM are now will do that.

But losing the all jumper flavor is a bummer but mostly on a army asthetics level.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

Tranny c'tans are bad mmk?

With tactical marines being able to have up to 4 flamers, there becoming the new assault marines.

 Desubot wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

Tranny c'tans are bad mmk?

that did nothing to answer my question...

Why is Dante being a LoW a bad thing?

Dante as LoW is good. Frees up HQ's for those lovely Relics, or Sanguinary Priests.

 BrokenRecord wrote:

Tpiddy wrote:
I don't have the old dex in front of me but didn't the jump pack piece of wargear actually grant DOA? Is there any mention of the jump pack adding a bonus this time around?

Yes it did, and no, there isn't. DoA is a Warlord Trait ONLY now (and Dante has it automatically).

Thanks. That is a bummer. Sounds like Dante is an auto include for me going forward.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

Tranny c'tans are bad mmk?

that did nothing to answer my question...

Why is Dante being a LoW a bad thing?

It wasn't the original question

But its not a bad thing.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

Lords of War aren't bad but having a named character like Seth in the same category as a Baneblade or Warhound Titan is unnecessarily complicated. It's an escalation of war that a lot of players aren't ready for and shouldn't have to endure. An Imperial Knight, a baby Lord of War, is still a beast and changes the game completely. Far more than fliers or elite infantry or tanks could hope for. Makes the game into 'who can kill the biggest tank'. And that's what fits in the same slot as Dante now.

Anyone know if Honor Guard is still a thing? Would like to know if my Melta gun, Jump pack, Storm Shield HG should be torn apart...

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

If I'm not mistaken...
If your opponent doesn't have a lord of war in their list, they get free VP for killing yours, even if it's just some T4 dude who's not anymore threatening than a chapter master with shield eternal from standard marines codex.

Also, I'm not sure if it only applied to super heavies or not, but the opponent also gets a good warlord table that focuses on giving their warlord anti-lord of war stuff, and +1 seize

So we are going back a Pre-2007 No Assault Troop Army.
>I don't see as that much of an issue. For me this I m going to have to split up my Assault Squads into two different builds.
Elites: As Vanguard Vets, well it like all of the extra S5, I5 Attacks. As Death Company, the Same.
Fast Attack: As Assault Squads, well they will no long be OS, but with the New Detachment, I would not OS Anyway.
Troops: Well I was wanting an excuse to get the New Shiny Tactical Squad. With the Fast Rhinos and the fact that we can now take Multiple-Assault Weapons and Bolt Pistols, those Tactical Squads can Act Like Assault Squads. You Also Still Have Assault Scouts [Especially if we got Storms].

Then of course We Have Unbound, that Solves Everything.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

If I'm not mistaken...
If your opponent doesn't have a lord of war in their list, they get free VP for killing yours, even if it's just some T4 dude who's not anymore threatening than a chapter master with shield eternal from standard marines codex.

Also, I'm not sure if it only applied to super heavies or not, but the opponent also gets a good warlord table that focuses on giving their warlord anti-lord of war stuff, and +1 seize

only if you play escalation. which is not mandatory.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

Tranny c'tans are bad mmk?

that did nothing to answer my question...

Why is Dante being a LoW a bad thing?

Because you still have to pay the HQ tax to get him on the board. But, with the overabundance of cheap HQs, this shouldn't be a deal breaker. I am probably going to pick Dante up now.

I wonder if there is something in the Tacticals that says they can take Special Wargear.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

Tranny c'tans are bad mmk?

that did nothing to answer my question...

Why is Dante being a LoW a bad thing?

Some folks don't like all LOWs because some are bad. They're LOW-ist.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

Tranny c'tans are bad mmk?

that did nothing to answer my question...

Why is Dante being a LoW a bad thing?

The biggest problem with characters as LOW is they it means they can't be the compulsory HQ. This isn't so bad for BA as they will almost certainly have a priest or two in HQ, but for for example, take Orks. With Ghazkul as a LOW, it's a bit stupid/annoying to have to have another Warboss or HQ running around after him.

niv-mizzet wrote:

When you already have the well-entrenched standard house rule of "no unbound," it's pretty much gonna be the same process though. :(

Maybe, but you really cannot expect GW to write codices based on people's house rules. Unbound and Lords of War are part of the standard rules, so this new codex did not render your army unplayable, your house rules did.

Assault marines as troops never made any sense anyway; BA do not have any more of them than any codex chapter does (then again, vanilla marines shouldn't be able to take bikes as troops either.)

 Desubot wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

If I'm not mistaken...
If your opponent doesn't have a lord of war in their list, they get free VP for killing yours, even if it's just some T4 dude who's not anymore threatening than a chapter master with shield eternal from standard marines codex.

Also, I'm not sure if it only applied to super heavies or not, but the opponent also gets a good warlord table that focuses on giving their warlord anti-lord of war stuff, and +1 seize

only if you play escalation. which is not mandatory.

Aren't you automatically playing escalation if you use a lord of war?
Or do you have the option to take say...a thunderhawk or reaver and then tell the opponent you're not playing escalation?
I remember reading escalation and trying like...2 games, and since then, I've always assumed that the LOW slot means you crack it open and let the opponent have a bunch of advantages for you taking one. If it's not that way, then I guess LOW is ok?

I don't mess with the tournament scene at all, but don't a lot limit Lords of war? I could see a lot of people getting irritated that their 160 point, slightly boosted, captain is now considered the organizational equivalent of a Warhound.

I'm by no means trying to jump on the GW hate train, but Seth as a LoW seems to make sense from a fluff perspective, and not at all from a crunch perspective. Not sure I get this decision. Maybe they're trying to free up space in the now extra crowded HQ slot?

niv-mizzet wrote:


Aren't you automatically playing escalation if you use a lord of war?
Or do you have the option to take say...a thunderhawk or reaver and then tell the opponent you're not playing escalation?
I remember reading escalation and trying like...2 games, and since then, I've always assumed that the LOW slot means you crack it open and let the opponent have a bunch of advantages for you taking one. If it's not that way, then I guess LOW is ok?

No you are not.
7th force org automatically comes with the LOW slot.

Escalation added that into 6th that didnt have it.

It also listed some basic LOW as not all books had it.

Now LOW are all over the place from forgeworld to your normal book.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

Tranny c'tans are bad mmk?

that did nothing to answer my question...

Why is Dante being a LoW a bad thing?

Some may argue that it's because you will still need to purchase an HQ on top.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Why is Lord of War a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?

If I'm not mistaken...
If your opponent doesn't have a lord of war in their list, they get free VP for killing yours, even if it's just some T4 dude who's not anymore threatening than a chapter master with shield eternal from standard marines codex.

Also, I'm not sure if it only applied to super heavies or not, but the opponent also gets a good warlord table that focuses on giving their warlord anti-lord of war stuff, and +1 seize

only if you play escalation. which is not mandatory.

Aren't you automatically playing escalation if you use a lord of war?

Nope, if you aren't running a mission form the Escalation book, then its rules don't apply. You can just use the basic core 7E rules and bring a Reaver Titan as part or a normal "battleforged" list, and none of those advantages apply.

You where probably taking a priest anyway and your warlord can be any character so

are the fast rhinos dedicated?

Well then, it's nice to know that Dante can fit without taking a spot away from the very contested HQ section, and without the disadvantages that our entire group thought they had.

Seriously we have an ork player who hasn't run ghaz since their book because we all thought he brought all the escalation-associated stuff with him.

 Desubot wrote:
You where probably taking a priest anyway and your warlord can be any character so

I suppose this is true. You could look at it as freeing up another HQ slot to take instead if you want two priests in your list.

This Codex actually sounds far more interesting than previous one. I've always liked Blood Angels, but never got around starting them: I played few proxy matches with the WD Codex and liked it (!). However, the Ward-dex totally killed my interest. They became just so over-everything, they didn't feel like a dying chapter anymore.

Too bad that I am now too invested with Dark Angels to start another Marine Chapter. It's understandable that many BA players who had all-Jump Pack armies are pissed, no matter how much sense that change makes lore-wise.

I actually kinda shudder whether they will remove Troop Terminators from next DA codex...OTOH, at least they can't make it suck any more, right...?

 Crimson wrote:

Maybe, but you really cannot expect GW to write codices based on people's house rules.

No, but you should be able to expect them to continue the defining characteristic of the army that they added to differentiate that army from the myriad of other similar ones. For better or worse, BA have been the "jump pack as troops" army for three editions of the game and almost a decade. People bought whole armies to build around that theme. Abandoning now just because they came out with a different new kit that they want to push is showing contempt for their customer base. Add in the apparent abandoning of yet another defining difference, all those landraiders that were previously available as a generic dedicated transport are no longer according to earlier posts. That is a double whammy from GW.

 pretre wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Let the house ruling commence!

Unbound isn't houseruling.

It's not a solution to "they just made my army invalid" either. For most people, at least.

I mean seriously, I haven't seen a release so designed to feth over the current player base in a while, and I generally don't use that terminology. But consider:

Death Company get changed. Assault Marines get changed. Sang Priests got changed. Tac Squads got emphasised... and a new Tac Box got released. Such coincidence. Much accident. Wow.

Well I'm massively annoyed by the removal of assault squads as troops. It's hyper annoying that to make a fluffy list I have to use unbound and open myself up to the kind of abuse unbound entails.

Tbh the codex just sounds way more bland now, for those arguing that BA have no more assault squads than other chapters this is true but ignores one vital point: BA prefer jump packs, BA assault squads are always full strength as marines jump at the chance to serve in them.

Blood Angels weren't a jump troop Army when I started in 2nd edition, they wasn't in third either.

They've gone back to their roots as far as I'm concerned. You can't wage all wars with jump packs and pistols.

Ya know is it entirely possible that
1 there will be a formation to allow troop ass marines? or
2 that tactical marines can just take jumpers?

 Desubot wrote:
Ya know is it entirely possible that
1 there will be a formation to allow troop ass marines? or
2 that tactical marines can just take jumpers?

As far as 2 is concerned, it's apparently been confirmed that there are no jump packs anywhere in the troop section.

So now we're just holding out for formation/supplement stuff to save our precious jump pack troops.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Blood Angels weren't a jump troop Army when I started in 2nd edition, they wasn't in third either.

Yeah, and back then they were just Ultramarines with different Special Characters, a different paint job, and one unique unit (Death Company). Why would we want to return to a world where things are more bland?

Good thing my brother magnetised all the backpacks/jump packs on all his assault and tactical marines.

With formations outside the CAD limits and GW not giving a rat's ass about tournaments, a formation using Assault Squads and some sort of HQ or Chaplain and Death Company or just something along those lines is HIGHLY likely. I'm sure there will be a way to still do the old builds for the most part and folks just have to be patient.

Or a caveat that allows Assault to come back in as Troops like Vanilla Bikes, but I'm sure we would have heard of that by now if it were a thing.

 Zande4 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
jumped up my ass

Pro tip. If someone is figuratively jumping up your ass, it generally means they're agreeing with you or just giving you compliments to the point where it's over the top.

The phrase you were looking for is "jumped down my throat"

Australians consider "jumping up my ass" to have a positive connotation?

U scary. lol

 DarthOvious wrote:
All I'm asking for is that you don't state your personal opinion as fact.

A fact is an opinion that no one can present a logical counter-argument against.

- - - - - -

On a positive note, aside from the utterly soul crushing buttsmashing of my assault marine army, I like the majority of the changes in the codex. Sneaky GW making Dante awesome just in time to make him a LoW.

http://spikeybitsblog.com/2014/12/new-blood-angels-codex-rules-leak.html

Thats the link to the codex leak. Literally the ONLY thing I dont like is no assault squads in troops.

I've never heard the ass one.


Yep... I really just typed that.

I do not think people are looking at this right. We just got a Deathstar from hell. Mephiston, Tig, all the special weapons tac squad? Thinking Telepathy, possible Divination.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Blood Angels weren't a jump troop Army when I started in 2nd edition, they wasn't in third either.

Yeah, and back then they were just Ultramarines with different Special Characters, a different paint job, and one unique unit (Death Company). Why would we want to return to a world where things are more bland?

Yet the death company had the most character it has ever had.

Having the 1+1 wound rule was cool, and also that each marine was a 1 man unit if they didn't have a chaplain to keep them in line.

Is the Reclusiarch still a thing? Chaplain upgrade? Gone altogether?

Yeah 'cause that wasn't hard to track or anything, especially in 2nd Ed's 1-on-1 style HTH rules.

There was only ever 20 models in each army, it wasn't that hard to track.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Is the Reclusiarch still a thing? Chaplain upgrade? Gone altogether?

According to the guy on Warseer, the Reclusiarch is gone (and so are Honour Guard). He didn't say if Chaplains are moved to HQ (which is probably the case).

So, if you were using Relics of the Armoury you're gak outta luck until FW brings out a new book with Marine vehicles (or maybe they'll just FAQ it in a couple of years or so).

Great, and I just bought a new Chaplain with Jump Pack. I guess I can give him that Jump Pack Relic that helps out Deep Strike. Fielding him and Dante will yield some interesting results.

Ok now that it's leaked any word on dev squads having access to heavy Flamers ?

Narlix wrote:
Ok now that it's leaked any word on dev squads having access to heavy Flamers ?

Apparently Dev squads cannot take Heavy Flamers.

Narlix wrote:
Ok now that it's leaked any word on dev squads having access to heavy Flamers ?

Only tac squads and sternguard

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Blood Angels weren't a jump troop Army when I started in 2nd edition, they wasn't in third either.

Yeah, and back then they were just Ultramarines with different Special Characters, a different paint job, and one unique unit (Death Company). Why would we want to return to a world where things are more bland?

Return to a world without Santa Grimnar, Dreadknights, Bloody Blood Missiles, Robo-Spock Iron Hands, and Centurions? You know, if it weren't for what Forgeworld and FFG have produced in the interim, I'd say it was totally worth it.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Return to a world without Santa Grimnar, Dreadknights, Bloody Blood Missiles, Robo-Spock Iron Hands, and Centurions? You know, if it weren't for what Forgeworld and FFG have produced in the interim, I'd say it was totally worth it.

I believe the proper satirical term for centurions (that I made up) is Russian Nesting Astartes. I would also accept anything starting with "Yo Dawg! I hurd you like spees marinez..."

So if it's true that Corbulo gives +1 ws and init to his unit, this might be a thing.

Meph
Dante
Corb
A decent size (15?) unit of death co

That's init 6 str 5 ws 5 assumingly with fnp as well, drop invis on it from Meph!

I call it the .... Death-Star...
Oh wait.

 warboss wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Return to a world without Santa Grimnar, Dreadknights, Bloody Blood Missiles, Robo-Spock Iron Hands, and Centurions? You know, if it weren't for what Forgeworld and FFG have produced in the interim, I'd say it was totally worth it.

I believe the proper satirical term for centurions (that I made up) is Russian Nesting Astartes. I would also accept anything starting with "Yo Dawg! I hurd you like spees marinez..."

Kinder Marines?

I'm not usually one to bemoan codex changes as they generally all get a little better and change around units to make us buy more toys but....

If these rumors are actually correct I'm pretty upset, sure various things are alot better (dante, points drops, etr) but I see very little reason to play BA instead of normal marines. We have to take tacticals but instead of a useful chapter tactic are stuck with furious charge on a single attack unit with rapid fire weapons that are unlikey to ever charge. This makes for a very un-inspiring core to an army.
Just take some fast attack units to assault with I here people cry - but if I play wolves or marines I could use thunderwolves or bikes who are both harder to kill, faster and more hard hitting.
We used to be the only chapter with a flying vehicle now we are the chapter with the least flying options (all the others have two).
If we're going to just be bad vanilla marines at least we should get some of their toys like storm talons and landspeeder storms that fit our flavour.

As I said I'm sure they will be perfectly playable but they just seem completely un-interesting, there is no point having a book that just does the same as the vanilla book. those who say that it'll get fixed in a suppliment need to wake up, playing extra to get what you used to have is not an answer.

Sorry for the rant but I've been playing BA since the early 90's and was really looking forward to this book and am now just pretty sad which is not a feeling the makers of the game I love should be giving me -( here's hoping that as with all books it works out ok in time.

Eldercaveman wrote:
So if it's true that Corbulo gives +1 ws and init to his unit, this might be a thing.

Meph
Dante
Corb
A decent size (15?) unit of death co

That's init 6 str 5 ws 5 assumingly with fnp as well, drop invis on it from Meph!

I call it the .... Death-Star...
Oh wait.

Pray for the 12'' move psychic ability and if you get it, tell your opponent to prepare his anus for the turn 2 charge.

So much for finishing my Flesh Tearers. LOL what a joke. But why am I surprised I know GW doesn't care about older players. No different than all those chaos players that took it in the rear post 3.5 or whatever.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Blood Angels weren't a jump troop Army when I started in 2nd edition, they wasn't in third either.

Yeah, and back then they were just Ultramarines with different Special Characters, a different paint job, and one unique unit (Death Company). Why would we want to return to a world where things are more bland?

Return to a world without Santa Grimnar, Dreadknights, Bloody Blood Missiles, Robo-Spock Iron Hands, and Centurions? You know, if it weren't for what Forgeworld and FFG have produced in the interim, I'd say it was totally worth it.

Yep.

Bland is highly underrated.



Biggest disappointment from this codex is no Blood Wing Attack Fighter or Chalice Chariot with Casket Cannon. But hey, not all is lost. Tyranids got an interim release, and they specifically left out the Storm Talon.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
So if it's true that Corbulo gives +1 ws and init to his unit, this might be a thing.

Meph
Dante
Corb
A decent size (15?) unit of death co

That's init 6 str 5 ws 5 assumingly with fnp as well, drop invis on it from Meph!

I call it the .... Death-Star...
Oh wait.

Pray for the 12'' move psychic ability and if you get it, tell your opponent to prepare his anus for the turn 2 charge.

Prepare for that nice large demolisher shell

I think it will be interesting. Fit it into a unit with a bunch of powermauls and go wack some faces especially with enfeeble or some other sillyness.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Biggest disappointment from this codex is no Blood Wing Attack Fighter or Chalice Chariot with Casket Cannon.

The GW Advent calendar is still going on. Maybe we'll get this beauty sometime before Dec 25th as an additional paid DLC microtransaction!

Warhams-77 wrote:

Iubichan on Warseer

Thanks! So are standard Predators and Vindicators no longer Fast?

That's correct, but standard Predators can buy them at 10 points.

but what about vindicators? Yay or nay? I was super pumped to start blood angels when i heard they had fast vindicators. I've always loved them, but been afraid of their limited range/speed.

IS MY SUMMER DREAM TO COME TO NAUGHT?

Lame rumors. No reason to run BA now, since the best units appear to be either HQ or slotless characters. Just use them as allies to get Meph.

Another missed opportunity.

Anyone got a link to this warseer thread? I cant find it

Vindicators can't - as far as we know at the moment


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Anyone got a link to this warseer thread? I cant find it

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?402599-Blood-Angels-vs-Tyranids-Seige-of-Baal-Box-Set&p=7331647#post7331647

 Silverthorne wrote:
Lame rumors. No reason to run BA now, since the best units appear to be either HQ or slotless characters. Just use them as allies to get Meph.

Another missed opportunity.

If he really is T5 now instead of 6 then a large part of why people took him is gone (immunity to S10 instakill). He gains a bit of survivability if he is an IC who can join a squad but I'm not sure if that is the case.

I know we have nay-sayers. But i like it.

The only thing that slightly annoys me is our new detachment and no new flyer or access to storm talon. We only get 1 extra elites slot? It seems like the previous army detachments gave a little more than that.

JuniorRS13 wrote:
I know we have nay-sayers. But i like it.

Yeah. The people who don't like the fact that the entire structure of their army has been invalidated are just 'nay-sayers'.

On the bright side, at least you had the class not to call them "haters".

A great term I just saw on another board made sense to me.

Ward basically redefined the BA's fairly radically. Their last book went more than a bit ham in some places.

It would appear that GW is attempting to "de-Ward" the book and bring it closer to its 2E "Angels of Death" incarnation, and in a way that makes sense.

It's unfortunate for the armies that were built heavily around Assault Marines, as that was their main feature for the last 7 years, but I can at least see some fluff logic in their madness with this, as opposed to say, the IG codex where they simply deleted half the characters and artillery purely because they didn't have plastic kits.

yayyy honor guard are gone, there goes my DOA melta fun time suicide squad. well at least i'll have 5 more Jump marines for.......... oh wait........ lol.

I have just caught up with the 8 pages that were posted since last night. I knew that there would be changes with this new Codex, and I wasn't of the opinion that they would all be positive. I definitely hear people's concerns that the identity of the Blood Angels is changing, but I am not convinced that their fluff is being ignored or ruined. Certainly when you look back at HH Blood Angels, (like the novel "Fear to Tread") they were not super Jump-Pack oriented. They were, in fact, more like World Eaters in a lot of regards--formidable and ferocious close-combat troops.

Indeed, I might argue that GW is trying to focus the fluff and give the other Space Marine Chapters (who people on this thread have lumped together) more individuality and appeal in their own right, even though they have not had their own Codex for years. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and now Blood Angels have all retained their own books, and they do have individual traits and units that appeal. I think that the current fluff indicates that it is the Raven Guard who are super jump-pack oriented, with the "Winged Deliverance" Chapter Tactic. So, GW may be trying to move things back in that direction. Now, you might not like this, and as pointed out, it contradicts recent editions, but it could be intentional and does line up with BA fluff.

I am glad they gave our HQ the IC rule; that was a huge hole, and the points decreases on our Chapter-specific units (Sanguinary Guard and DC) help a little. This does lead me to think that I will need to run Dante and Corbulo and the other special characters, and that's Fluffy and all right with me too. I'm sad that there are not (yet) any other units, but am also confident that I can use my Elite and Heavy Support sections to incorporate the models I already own and have painted. Honestly, I have more of a "little of everything" approach with my collection, which is not Spam or Cheese and doesn't win me a lot of competitive games, but is what I feel is more "true" to an army in the 40k universe. So I am happy that I will get to trot out more of my collection (put those Terminators in the Land Raider, and yes, you need some foundation-of-every-Space-Marine-force Tactical Squads now, etc) and see what happens.

The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Now ... all Blood Angels players have grown accustomed to using RAS as troops as a staple. If there were no leaks about what was going on and all that we had as far as a rumour goes was ... a picture of the codex front, and I were to buy it, knowing for sure that RAS would be a troop choice because of the cover. Open it up and .... Tacs and Scouts as the only troop choices. I would walk right back into the GW store and demand a refund. I would not have furious charge .... I would have rage.

But...but... they want you to buy the new tactical kit! If someone who only had assault marines as troops, they're now forced to feed GW's bottom line beyond just the codex.

No real access to better AA is quite annoying. Perhaps that's just because my other army is GK...haha. I'm okay with tacs and scouts as troops though, I usually did that anyway .

Any idea if drop pods are in Fast Attack a la Space Wolves?

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Now ... all Blood Angels players have grown accustomed to using RAS as troops as a staple. If there were no leaks about what was going on and all that we had as far as a rumour goes was ... a picture of the codex front, and I were to buy it, knowing for sure that RAS would be a troop choice because of the cover. Open it up and .... Tacs and Scouts as the only troop choices. I would walk right back into the GW store and demand a refund. I would not have furious charge .... I would have rage.

Because the sales department says what goes, not the rules department!

I am still going to buy the codex, but if I read through it and see nothing that I am willing to change to as far as my army goes .... I am done.

I started playing 40k because if DoW 1 & 2. When 2 came out I used Thaddeus ( Assualt Marine) and put a JP on Vanilla Force Commander. I absolutely fell in love with the RAS. I honestly did not care if I won or lost, I just wanted to move an entire army of JP Marines around.

Got used to losing when 6th hit and that continued so far in 7th. I won some but, you cant DS almost an entire army and expect to win when you play against mostly Tau and Eldar. I honestly feel like GW is just asking me to open my checkbook and write them a blank check. I would have to buyatleast 3 or 4 tac squads just to field an army now .... NOPE. If I wanted to use Tac Squads I would play as Smurfs.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
. the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Um, he's VAS not RAS.

Bye to the mighty ASM squads on fast razorbacks as troops choice and one, if not the most important reason to ever play BA over vanilla.

Seriously, FML

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I am still going to buy the codex, but if I read through it and see nothing that I am willing to change to as far as my army goes .... I am done.

I started playing 40k because if DoW 1 & 2. When 2 came out I used Thaddeus ( Assualt Marine) and put a JP on Vanilla Force Commander. I absolutely fell in love with the RAS. I honestly did not care if I won or lost, I just wanted to move an entire army of JP Marines around.

Got used to losing when 6th hit and that continued so far in 7th. I won some but, you cant DS almost an entire army and expect to win when you play against mostly Tau and Eldar. I honestly feel like GW is just asking me to open my checkbook and write them a blank check. I would have to buyatleast 3 or 4 tac squads just to field an army now .... NOPE. If I wanted to use Tac Squads I would play as Smurfs.

May I suggest you obtain a "digital preview copy" and check it out before you give them any cash whatsoever? Then, if the sky hasn't fallen, obtain the real copy.

Newspaper over the nose, it's the only way they'll learn.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Now ... all Blood Angels players have grown accustomed to using RAS as troops as a staple. If there were no leaks about what was going on and all that we had as far as a rumour goes was ... a picture of the codex front, and I were to buy it, knowing for sure that RAS would be a troop choice because of the cover. Open it up and .... Tacs and Scouts as the only troop choices. I would walk right back into the GW store and demand a refund. I would not have furious charge .... I would have rage.

Because the sales department says what goes, not the rules department!

Yeah ... this is a great way to shut sales down and then .... "Blood Angels sold poorly, unlike Space Wolves, roll them into C:SM."

If they had gutted the SW codex like they just did to the BA Codex, sales would have been non-existent and everyone would have freaked out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arschbombe wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
. the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Um, he's VAS not RAS.

um, still an Assualt Marine .... yes?

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

It never occured to me, but that is sorta funny about the cover.

As much as I don't like the new direction, they've been very consistent in their approach to making every new codex more bland than its previous edition. The "glass half-full" voice says that they realize the mess the core rules are right now and, they have a master plan to fix it. The cynic in me says that they realize the mess the rules are in right now, so making everything milk-toast is the best way to keep the whole game from crashing into a huge heap.

I don't mind the FOC swap from a fluff perspective, because truthfully BA don't use assault marines any more than other chapters do. Buuuut, my heart goes out to all the people who spent so much money building up there armies over the years, only for lots of it to be invalidated.

Unbound is the only reprieve- adding in some DLC formation that allows extra assault marines (which would admittedly be cool, especially if the formation special effect was something like "all come in on the same turn" or "scatter only 1d6'') is not something to be proud of, because it's a shameless money grab.

I reject the notion that this is GW's attempt to "rein in" the codex though. GW has proven time and again that they don't give a gak about things like fluff or a faction's image.

So have we gotten a formation? Haven't seen it mentioned, but that seems to be one of the things that was ongoing in the 7th Ed books.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Now ... all Blood Angels players have grown accustomed to using RAS as troops as a staple. If there were no leaks about what was going on and all that we had as far as a rumour goes was ... a picture of the codex front, and I were to buy it, knowing for sure that RAS would be a troop choice because of the cover. Open it up and .... Tacs and Scouts as the only troop choices. I would walk right back into the GW store and demand a refund. I would not have furious charge .... I would have rage.

Absolutely 100% wrong.

Just because blood angels like to assault, does not make them 'use more' assault troops. You seriously cannot use the fluff to defend you either, there are 180 assault marines in a standard codex format space marine chapter, Blood Angels are a codex format space marine chapter. That is less than 20% of a full strength chapter, if you take into account Vanguards, then there are about 20%.

When a blood angel company goes on a mission, they don't tell all their tac marines to suit up in assault gear and get down to business, they have 20 AS marines, 20 out of 100.

Just because players abused AS marines as troops choice, packing in 60 of them does not mean you can somehow justify it as fluff that you should have them as troops now and forever. Otherwise you can justify that riptide spam is fluffy.

Blood angels ARE an assault based army, but they are not composed of nearly complete assault troops, yeah their dev squads of chomping at the bit to go to town in combat also, but they aren't going to throw away their heavy weapons to suit up with chainsword and bolt pistol.

Blood Angels have been restored to how they should have been. A codex chapter with certain buffs for their assault troops and also a few extra assault orientated units, but still largely a codex based chapter.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
. the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Um, he's VAS not RAS.

Yup. Gold helmet not yellow.

I guess I am not terribly butthurt over the FoC changes to BA. I have a spare Rhino for the Tactical Squad and will be running Cassor the Damned as the other troop for now. Will probably get another Tactical Squad anyway. If Death Company still get to do a 30 man unit, I may field more than just the five of them I have right now. Sanguinary Guard being up to 10 man squad makes things okay as well. I am hoping the Sang Priest behaves more like a Techmarine where you can take one per HQ.

Overall, now that I am over the initial shock, I think I will be able to make this new army work. Still wish they left Assault Squads in the Troops section though. The fact you can do up to four Elites is going to be okay. I will just use an Aegis Defense Line for AA.

Using a Jump Chaplain with the Relic that makes scatter not suck and running Dante with a Sanguinary Guard will be one of the things I do.

@endless waltz

I never said that they have more AS than another chapter, I said that they USE them more than other chapters. The fluff backs this up. Pg. 25 of the current codex shows this. They go from scouts to AS. it goes on to say that the AS will likely stay at full strength when all other facets of a company are woefully undermanned. I did not write it, GW did, and it happens to fit the way I like to play my army.

So..... no, I am not 100% wrong.

For what its worth, I DO think this is GW pulling back in codexs and killing off codex creep. In fact you would be hard pressed to name a OP codex since Eldar. with all of them being fairly balanced but blander.

I just think this was a misstep by GW killing off what many players of the BA had come to love, its not even OP, just something most of us love. I also think it was a HUGE miscalculation by GW to assume that we wouldn't buy a new Jump marines box (due to having too many) and so go with a new tac. squad and change the rules up instead to force sales of those new boxes.

Its not all bad and there is some good stuff, I like the formation and Dante, however .....once again I'll state that this lends HUGE credence to the argument that we should fold right into the Vanilla dex.

even I'm really wondering if what we gain by not being in the vanilla is worth what we got this time and I've been a HUGE HUGE supporter of us being separate but now...... I dono , I've just never lost that hope before.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
@endless waltz

I never said that they have more AS than another chapter, I said that they USE them more than other chapters. The fluff backs this up. Pg. 25 of the current codex shows this. They go from scouts to AS. it goes on to say that the AS will likely stay at full strength when all other facets of a company are woefully undermanned. I did not write it, GW did, and it happens to fit the way I like to play my army.

So..... no, I am not 100% wrong.

That is the same as any other chapter. And all that means, is there are 20 assault marines per battle company max, unless it's the assault reserve company.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Absolutely 100% wrong.

Just because blood angels like to assault, does not make them 'use more' assault troops. You seriously cannot use the fluff to defend you either, there are 180 assault marines in a standard codex format space marine chapter, Blood Angels are a codex format space marine chapter. That is less than 20% of a full strength chapter, if you take into account Vanguards, then there are about 20%.

When a blood angel company goes on a mission, they don't tell all their tac marines to suit up in assault gear and get down to business, they have 20 marines, 20 out of 100.

Just because players abused AS marines as troops choice, packing in 60 of them does not mean you can somehow justify it as fluff that you should have them as troops now and forever.

Blood angels ARE an assault based army, but they are not composed of nearly complete assault troops, yeah their dev squads of chomping at the bit to go to town in combat also, but they aren't going to throw away their heavy weapons to suit up with chainsword and bolt pistol.

Blood Angels have been restored to how they should have been. A codex chapter with certain buffs for their assault troops and also a few extra assault orientated units, but still largely a codex based chapter.

Actually, he's not as wrong as you think he is. Most marine chapters have their promoted scouts to to Devastator squads next. Blood Angels send them straight to being assault marines. So while their organization may not be non-codex, when they take losses, the assault squads are the most easily filled. Then there's the issue of the chapter master himself being a jump pack marine. The Horus Heresy fluff, while it didn't give a great amount of specifics about the organization of the legion, does mention EVERY 5 SECONDS or so that the Blood Angels are known for massive scale drop pod and jump pack melee assaults. Then of course, you look at all the heraldry such as the drop with wings, symbolizing flight, the primarch that had wings, all the guys in the chapter who like flight because the primarch had wings, and even all the marketing for the chapter. They specifically mentioned wings and such on the WD cover.

For anyone who played BA in the last half-decade because they wanted to run assault marines, this was a betrayal.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
@endless waltz

I never said that they have more AS than another chapter, I said that they USE them more than other chapters. The fluff backs this up. Pg. 25 of the current codex shows this. They go from scouts to AS. it goes on to say that the AS will likely stay at full strength when all other facets of a company are woefully undermanned. I did not write it, GW did, and it happens to fit the way I like to play my army.

So..... no, I am not 100% wrong.

That is the same as any other chapter. And all that means, is there are 20 assault marines per battle company max, unless it's the assault reserve company.

No it is different than other chapters. Other chapters (not counting SW Codex) you go from scout to Dev, from Dev to AS, from AS to Tac.
BA go from scout to AS, and the fluff also says that many of them never leave the AS.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Just because players abused AS marines as troops choice, packing in 60 of them does not mean you can somehow justify it as fluff that you should have them as troops now and forever. Otherwise you can justify that riptide spam is fluffy.

Its not only about fluff, its about making BA competitive (or less crappy, because current Codex is arguably the worst codex) and this doesnt help AT ALL. We never wanted stupid tacticals with grav guns or heavy flamers, most of us just wanted some love for assault, and that includes keeping ASM and DC as troop choices and ofc a respective points reduction.

Army wide furious charge, the detachment granting +1 initiative to all models and Priests handing out FnP like candy screams drop pod assault to me.

Its like making grey knight terminators elite

 BlackArmour wrote:
however .....once again I'll state that this lends HUGE credence to the argument that we should fold right into the Vanilla dex.

even I'm really wondering if what we gain by not being in the vanilla is worth what we got this time and I've been a HUGE HUGE supporter of us being separate but now...... I dono , I've just never lost that hope before.

Death Company
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests
Furioso Dreadnaught
Librarian Dreadnaught
Too many personailities to be vanilla (Dante, Tycho, Mephiston, Corbolo, Astrorath, Sanguinor, Gabriel)

Compared to Black Templars
1 unique troop choice

This is absolutely terrible on GW's part. Virtually every good thing about BA was nerfed and nothing to replace it.. Furious charge is NOT a useful addition in a game that is 90% shooting. The only saving grace I can see is that 40k no longer requires a coherent army, or a FOC. It's purely being designed around the philosophy of "Take whatever you want, we don't give a damn"

Noooooooooooooo! Oh, wait. I don't have the codex yet...

Blood Angels have been restored to how they should have been. A codex chapter with certain buffs for their assault troops and also a few extra assault orientated units, but still largely a codex based chapter.

One step closer towards putting all the Space Marine codex's into one book like Black Templar were.

I'm all for it.

I always ran Tacticals, and no more than 3 Assault squads, so this codex is nothing but good news.

Any word on if the Drop Pods are Fast Attack like Space Wolves ?

Man they got hit by the nerf bat HARD. For an already meh dex it's pretty harsh.

"Blood Angels have been restored to how they should have been. A codex chapter with certain buffs for their assault troops and also a few extra assault orientated units, but still largely a codex based chapter.


One step closer towards putting all the Space Marine codex's into one book like Black Templar were.

I'm all for it."

You know, i used to not be all for it, then i got tired of every other month's release being MOAR space marines.

I was looking to pick up Deathstorm, but if this holds I'll pass. It's too bad, I love the fluff.

 adamsouza wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
however .....once again I'll state that this lends HUGE credence to the argument that we should fold right into the Vanilla dex.

even I'm really wondering if what we gain by not being in the vanilla is worth what we got this time and I've been a HUGE HUGE supporter of us being separate but now...... I dono , I've just never lost that hope before.

Death Company
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests
Furioso Dreadnaught
Librarian Dreadnaught
Too many personailities to be vanilla (Dante, Tycho, Mephiston, Corbolo, Astrorath, Sanguinor, Gabriel)

Compared to Black Templars
1 unique troop choice

LOL so you have marines with a different paint job and 2 dreads that codex chapters should have access to, from where I am standing that looks a lot like one unique unit and a funny looking medic.

Black Templars had more character than the angsty vamp marines before this new blander codex so if thus don't sell well there going to get rolled in so fast meph will end up in fantasy where he belongs

No....words.

Fluff justifications aside about troop ASM they were ICONIC Blood Angels, and have been for 7 years. Assault marines were the Blood Angels' thing, in the same way that Deathwing and Ravenwing was Dark Angels, bikers are White Scar's thing and Iron Hands are vehicle heavy.

I HATE tactical squads...they are garbage and I'm sick of playing with inferior troops after nearly 2 full decades. They are the core of every single space marine army in some shape or form, from chaos marines to vanilla tacticals to Grey Hunters. The reason a lot of people even used the BA book since 6th edition was to just get away from bloody tactical marines. That is just....gone. Welcome to vanilla space marine territory again gentlemen.

Okay, so what exactly does the BA book do now that vanilla cannot do, by at least a large enough margin that warrants giving up all the vanilla toys? Vanilla has better troops in bikers. Better AA and airpower in Storm Talons, Stalkers and Hunters. Better anti-horde in Thunderfire cannons and better anti-MC in Grav Centurions. BA has better assault, and not by a lot (Ironclad match well against Furiosos, Assault terminators will stand their ground against DC and Sang guard, Vanilla Honor guard might even trump BA assault options altogether and the assault marines are basically identical) and assault is the weakest it has been in years. Being good at an inferior aspect of the game is not awesome at all.

I'm interested to get my hands on the book to try to work out a best in slot list, and see if it stacks up....but with tacticals as your troop choice, and with a crap "chapter tactic" to back them up....I don't see how it's even possible, regardless of how good everything else is.

 adamsouza wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
however .....once again I'll state that this lends HUGE credence to the argument that we should fold right into the Vanilla dex.

even I'm really wondering if what we gain by not being in the vanilla is worth what we got this time and I've been a HUGE HUGE supporter of us being separate but now...... I dono , I've just never lost that hope before.

Death Company
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests
Furioso Dreadnaught
Librarian Dreadnaught
Too many personailities to be vanilla (Dante, Tycho, Mephiston, Corbolo, Astrorath, Sanguinor, Gabriel)

Compared to Black Templars
1 unique troop choice

Chapter tactic = Furious charge
Preds, rhinos and razor can take sup'ed up engines at 10 points each

Baal pred = BA preds with sup'ed up engines can take a special load out....blah blah blah X points.
Death company = One Vanguard vet squad can get FnP and rage for X points per model, but give up heroic intervention.
Sanguinary Guard = Blood Angel Honor guard may take jump packs for 5 points per model.
Sang priests = BA field more apothecaries than normal, known as sang priests. Techmarine entry, swap special rules for Sang priest and servo arm for nathecanium for X points
Furioso Dread = Is now an ironclad dread....if you are feeling generous, let it take lightning claws instead of their normal weapon loadout.
Libby dread = should be had by all anyways.
Kill off Tycho, Astrorath, Sanguinor and Gabriel and have them come back in dataslates later.

Should be able to roll them into the vanilla book in 3-4 page, 6 at most.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't mind the FOC swap from a fluff perspective, because truthfully BA don't use assault marines any more than other chapters do. Buuuut, my heart goes out to all the people who spent so much money building up there armies over the years, only for lots of it to be invalidated.

That's my take on it. BA's should have never got Assault Squads as troops in the first place - they're a Codex Chapter, even more Codex than the Dark Angels - but GW did do that and now they're wrecking the armies of basically every BA player by invalidating years of work and thousands of thousands of dollars worth of effort from thousands of players world-wide.

And that gak ain't cool.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I reject the notion that this is GW's attempt to "rein in" the codex though. GW has proven time and again that they don't give a gak about things like fluff or a faction's image.

That and they seem to think that by giving Malibu Stacey a new hat (BA Tac Squad) that all the problems will go away because everyone'll be distracted by ooh shiny!

While the required Troops tax is an annoyance with ASM moving back to Fast Attack, I think the bigger question that I've only heard one person even mention (props to you, Hulksmash) is the points cost.

I mean, under the previous 'dex, BA tacs are overpriced by 2 pts compared to both SM tacs and SW grey hunters. Even Skyclaws are cheaper than what the BA tacs were. If GW had the sense to drop the pts cost of ASM to what their tacs used to be and bring the pts cost of BA tacs in line with everyone else, then I think they'd be a strong unit. They're better than Skyclaws, so should be more expensive, but making them cheaper than SM ASM makes them attractive to field.

 cycluv wrote:
Noooooooooooooo! Oh, wait. I don't have the codex yet...

If that was a "clever" attempt at telling people not to panic because the Codex isn't out yet, then nice try, but no. We know what the Codex is. We're not going to suddenly find out that Assault Marines are Troops between now and Saturday. People have the Codex. They're giving out details. People's anger at this is justified and not at all premature.

 Death By Monkeys wrote:
While the required Troops tax is an annoyance with ASM moving back to Fast Attack, I think the bigger question that I've only heard one person even mention (props to you, Hulksmash) is the points cost.

I mean, under the previous 'dex, BA tacs are overpriced by 2 pts compared to both SM tacs and SW grey hunters. Even Skyclaws are cheaper than what the BA tacs were. If GW had the sense to drop the pts cost of ASM to what their tacs used to be and bring the pts cost of BA tacs in line with everyone else, then I think they'd be a strong unit. They're better than Skyclaws, so should be more expensive, but making them cheaper than SM ASM makes them attractive to field.

This. So much this.

Everyone panics about the changes in the troop section.
What happened? GW removed assault marines as troops.
The response? As if GW removed assault marines from the codex.

It isn't that bad. You now have to take 2 troop choices (tacticals in drop pods are probably a solid fething choice) and can now run a more solid army thanks to detachments and rules updates.

And all before we even *talk* about price drops.
It seems to me like players are making a mountain out of a molehill.

I agree with Neronoxx, i've never even seen people take ASM before as anything more than a way to get a cheaper drop pod/rhino/razorback anyways.

I'm not really scared of Tacticals swinging with Str 5 AP 0 chainswords, just sayin'. DC were a lot more of a concern, or something mobile. Assault Tacs in a drop pod? I'll pass.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 cycluv wrote:
Noooooooooooooo! Oh, wait. I don't have the codex yet...

If that was a "clever" attempt at telling people not to panic because the Codex isn't out yet, then nice try, but no. We know what the Codex is. We're not going to suddenly find out that Assault Marines are Troops between now and Saturday. People have the Codex. They're giving out details. People's anger at this is justified and not at all premature.

I don't have the codex, I dont have the full picture, I'm not panicking. I understand people's reactions to the early findings. Particularly those who have collected certain builds over many years. Change always hurts. With 7th edition, there are so many Imperium of Man combos out there. #centsinrepressors

There has to be strong BA builds a coming...remember the Nids?

#stayingpositive

I wonder what the company expects people to look forward to or buy in this release.

Tactical Marines? If you play SM, you have a spare bathtub of random tacticals somewhere.

Terminators? DV and other terminators on Ebay average about 2 dollars a pop.

And both of them have pretty weak tabletop performance. I guess you could do a drop pod thing, but every other SM codex besides DA does that better, so I don't see why you would.

Compare this release, from a sales perspective to if they released a plastic LOW Mephiston, give him an iron halo and ML 5. There is your character clamshell.

New cut assault marine sprue with new helmet types, narcatheium, and all the special weapons.

Rebox the Stormraven with one new BA sprue that allows a gunship, no transport version to be built.

Keep RAS as troops, make sang priests cheaper but no bubble, taken 1-5 as an elites choice, make a gunship version of the StormRaven, put in a power from pain type mechanic to show the army going bezerk towards the end game. Buff Meph into a LOW and fix Dante's axe, cut price on vehicles. No other changes.

Nice, balanced, and you would sell a truckload of new minis.

Instead we get this and Tyranids get a 5 shrouded flyrant battleforged list with exploding KP deniers for troops. Awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cycluv wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 cycluv wrote:
Noooooooooooooo! Oh, wait. I don't have the codex yet...

If that was a "clever" attempt at telling people not to panic because the Codex isn't out yet, then nice try, but no. We know what the Codex is. We're not going to suddenly find out that Assault Marines are Troops between now and Saturday. People have the Codex. They're giving out details. People's anger at this is justified and not at all premature.

I don't have the codex, I dont have the full picture, I'm not panicking. I understand people's reactions to the early findings. Particularly those who have collected certain builds over many years. Change always hurts. With 7th edition, there are so many Imperium of Man combos out there. #centsinrepressors

There has to be strong BA builds a coming...remember the Nids?

#stayingpositive

Remember the Dark Angels?

No ASM as troops worries me. But I'm likeing everything else. FINALLY Dante is EW!

Oh, and Sanguinor is still the same? As in, still only AP3? WTF!?

Loads of people moaning about rubbish sub-par tactical marines... Just wait till power lists start turning up that takes advantage of having 4 flamers in a tactical squad drop podding into enemy lines (that can hold it's weight in a charge if need be) with some insane deathstar that no-one has realised is possible yet from the codex, backed up by an allied in cent-star.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
No ASM as troops worries me. But I'm likeing everything else. FINALLY Dante is EW!

Oh, and Sanguinor is still the same? As in, still only AP3? WTF!?

And apparently 4++

 adamsouza wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
however .....once again I'll state that this lends HUGE credence to the argument that we should fold right into the Vanilla dex.

even I'm really wondering if what we gain by not being in the vanilla is worth what we got this time and I've been a HUGE HUGE supporter of us being separate but now...... I dono , I've just never lost that hope before.

Death Company
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests
Furioso Dreadnaught
Librarian Dreadnaught
Too many personailities to be vanilla (Dante, Tycho, Mephiston, Corbolo, Astrorath, Sanguinor, Gabriel)

Compared to Black Templars
1 unique troop choice

Really, I was stoutly against rolling BA into the codex marines before, but they did a good job of pouring BLAND all over them with this book. Now I can easily see them getting rolled into the next core marine codex.

It's a shame too. My BA wish list literally got hacked apart today. Don't need any more ASM, probably will just repaint some black for extra DC, don't want extra land raider crusaders anymore, don't want chaplains anymore, don't want more dreadnought variants anymore, don't need any more priests, don't want vindicators anymore...

Pretty much the only things I will want now are heavy flamer tacticals and more drop pods, and you can be damn sure I will only buy second hand to make sure bad designers are rewarded as little as possible for their idiocy.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I wonder what the company expects people to look forward to or buy in this release.

Tactical Marines? If you play SM, you have a spare bathtub of random tacticals somewhere.

Terminators? DV and other terminators on Ebay average about 2 dollars a pop.

And both of them have pretty weak tabletop performance. I guess you could do a drop pod thing, but every other SM codex besides DA does that better, so I don't see why you would.

Compare this release, from a sales perspective to if they released a plastic LOW Mephiston, give him an iron halo and ML 5. There is your character clamshell.

New cut assault marine sprue with new helmet types, narcatheium, and all the special weapons.

Rebox the Stormraven with one new BA sprue that allows a gunship, no transport version to be built.

Keep RAS as troops, make sang priests cheaper but no bubble, taken 1-5 as an elites choice, make a gunship version of the StormRaven, put in a power from pain type mechanic to show the army going bezerk towards the end game. Buff Meph into a LOW and fix Dante's axe, cut price on vehicles. No other changes.

Nice, balanced, and you would sell a truckload of new minis.

Instead we get this and Tyranids get a 5 shrouded flyrant battleforged list with exploding KP deniers for troops. Awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cycluv wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 cycluv wrote:
Noooooooooooooo! Oh, wait. I don't have the codex yet...

If that was a "clever" attempt at telling people not to panic because the Codex isn't out yet, then nice try, but no. We know what the Codex is. We're not going to suddenly find out that Assault Marines are Troops between now and Saturday. People have the Codex. They're giving out details. People's anger at this is justified and not at all premature.

I don't have the codex, I dont have the full picture, I'm not panicking. I understand people's reactions to the early findings. Particularly those who have collected certain builds over many years. Change always hurts. With 7th edition, there are so many Imperium of Man combos out there. #centsinrepressors

There has to be strong BA builds a coming...remember the Nids?

#stayingpositive

Remember the Dark Angels?

Yep. First 6th edition codex release...

 King Pariah wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
No ASM as troops worries me. But I'm likeing everything else. FINALLY Dante is EW!

Oh, and Sanguinor is still the same? As in, still only AP3? WTF!?

And apparently 4++

That doesn't worry me as much. Back in 5e when Power weapons ignored all saves, it didn't really matter if he had a 3++ or a 5++: Once he got into assault, you WON, end of story.

Then Power weapons became AP3...

Oh, just a thought, wonder if bolter based death company can take special weapons by any chance (but far fetched) and if they can, wonder if they can take a few grav guns? drop pod relentless death company into the back field with a couple of grav guns could be nasty.

Blood angel bikes with grav guns and furious charge as well...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Loads of people moaning about rubbish sub-par tactical marines... Just wait till power lists start turning up that takes advantage of having 4 flamers in a tactical squad drop podding into enemy lines (that can hold it's weight in a charge if need be) with some insane deathstar that no-one has realised is possible yet from the codex, backed up by an allied in cent-star.

Yes, I am sure BA players are pumped at the thought that there might be a gimmick somewhere that will make all their opponents groan at the sight of their army being taken out. Surely that is better than solid tactical, but themed gameplay.

WellSpokenMan wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Loads of people moaning about rubbish sub-par tactical marines... Just wait till power lists start turning up that takes advantage of having 4 flamers in a tactical squad drop podding into enemy lines (that can hold it's weight in a charge if need be) with some insane deathstar that no-one has realised is possible yet from the codex, backed up by an allied in cent-star.

Yes, I am sure BA players are pumped at the thought that there might be a gimmick somewhere that will make all their opponents groan at the sight of their army being taken out. Surely that is better than solid tactical, but themed gameplay.

I'm not saying it's correct by any means. I like finding absurdly strong combinations in lists, I don't actually use them, much prefer a chilled out narrative driven game myself. Worth knowing in case you do come across some WAC guy who is butt hurt he couldn't make a sport team back in school and uses this as his competitive outlet though.

Everyone is talking about the Tactical Squad as an Tax...Their Dynamic Just Changed Dramatically.
You can now shove 5 in a Pod with 1 Heavy Flamer and 2 Hand Flamers for around 145 points. [Assuming they are the same price as C: SM]
Add 5 more Guys with a Flamer to bring the total around 220.
The it 4 Template Attacks split between 2 Targets if you Combat Squad, like everyone does with their Sternguard for a lot less.

If anything this Codex just made Vanguard Vets and Sternguard unnecessary with Death Company now being an Elite Choice.

Where are you getting 4 flamers from?

Flamer
HF
Combi-flamer

...that's three, one more then salamanders... Whoopy! they get rerolls to wound with them which is actually relevant.

Ok, so lets separate the good and the bad here. Starting with the bad.

1. No assault marine troops: this sucks. No way around it. I have 40+ assault marines and no actual troops for my BA army. Of all the things they could have done, this is what i was afraid of.

2. Sanguinary priest FOC change: not being able to take bubbled out priests in strategically placed positions also sucks. Both theloss of our bubble and the decreased number of them will be keenly felt in the durability dept.

3. The relics: ok, so some of them are super efficient and kinda cool, but nothing really jumps out as being holy crap awesome, like the burning blade or shield eternal.

The good.

1. Death company and sanguinary guard: holy crap these guys are good now. 23 pts for jump pack death co, 33 for sanguinary guard, and both benefit hugely from the +1 initiative from the force org. Expect to see a lot of these.

2. Psychic powers: rage or +1 attack, initiative and attacks boosts, some good offensive witchfires, this list is solid.

3. Dante: if my info is correct, he hasnt changed much other than losing the force org swap and becoming a lord of war. Oh, except for his +2 str ap2 weapon at initiative. And eternal warrior. Hell yeah.

4. What sanguinary priests actually do: +1 ws and feel no pain is awesome for a 65 point character to bring to a unit. Enough said.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Everyone is talking about the Tactical Squad as an Tax...Their Dynamic Just Changed Dramatically.
You can now shove 5 in a Pod with 1 Heavy Flamer and 2 Hand Flamers for around 145 points. [Assuming they are the same price as C: SM]
Add 5 more Guys with a Flamer to bring the total around 220.
The it 4 Template Attacks split between 2 Targets if you Combat Squad, like everyone does with their Sternguard for a lot less.

If anything this Codex just made Vanguard Vets and Sternguard unnecessary with Death Company now being an Elite Choice.

Alrighty......maybe for some of us, it was more about how we win, than the fact that we can exploit rules to win.

In other words .......Salamanders the Blood Angels are not. however you're right I'm sure we will see a lot of green marines running around with BA codexs now. while also hearing them cry about how the BA stole their goodies.

I know we cant do full points cost, but can anyone tell me if the Sanguinor dropped at all, and maybe compare him to something? Because dropping his invul to 4++ at his current price point made him worse, a feat i thought unachievable

21stPrimarch wrote:
I know we cant do full points cost, but can anyone tell me if the Sanguinor dropped at all, and maybe compare him to something? Because dropping his invul to 4++ at his current price point made him worse, a feat i thought unachievable

same as stormraven is what the leak said

 Anpu42 wrote:
Everyone is talking about the Tactical Squad as an Tax...Their Dynamic Just Changed Dramatically.
You can now shove 5 in a Pod with 1 Heavy Flamer and 2 Hand Flamers for around 145 points. [Assuming they are the same price as C: SM]
Add 5 more Guys with a Flamer to bring the total around 220.
The it 4 Template Attacks split between 2 Targets if you Combat Squad, like everyone does with their Sternguard for a lot less.

If anything this Codex just made Vanguard Vets and Sternguard unnecessary with Death Company now being an Elite Choice.

so a 10 man squad split into 2 heavy flamers, 3 bullet shields and 1 sgt w/ twin hand flamers and 4 bullet shields?

Because, using this all as one squad seems inadvisable since you'll burn yourself out with one of the two types of templates.

Everyone complaining about Assault Troops not being in the codex apparently didn't play before 5th edition.

It does suck, because it was fun to field Assault as troops since it made us feel "unique", but it's not that bad.

With Baal Predators moving to heavy support, you can still take your 30 Assault Marines, and honestly they kind of suck in this edition anyways since the assault phase is pretty rough.

The points dropping to vanilla values opens up a lot of opportunities. I can see a lot of armies being Dante, Priest, x2 Sanguinary Guard, x2 full tacticals.

I think the only thing that makes me sad is the drop in Mephiston's power. Even though he was a baby demon prince, he still got his butt handed to him on MANY occasions.

Wait... i just looked at the campaign book. Death company and DC dreads are clearly listed as troops. This dude is high.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Wait... i just looked at the campaign book. Death company and DC dreads are clearly listed as troops. This dude is high.

Yes they are in the formation, however on GW site they were switched to Elite.

**edit** by formation I mean the Deathstorm formation.

 BlackArmour wrote:

21stPrimarch wrote:
I know we cant do full points cost, but can anyone tell me if the Sanguinor dropped at all, and maybe compare him to something? Because dropping his invul to 4++ at his current price point made him worse, a feat i thought unachievable

same as stormraven is what the leak said

Thanks so much man, unless he gets stupid attacks and abilities he is probably still not worth it, but hell, at least he will be doable if you just wanna mess around

 Red Corsair wrote:
Where are you getting 4 flamers from?

Flamer
HF
Combi-flamer

...that's three, one more then salamanders... Whoopy! they get rerolls to wound with them which is actually relevant.

Two Hand Flamers
1 Flamer
1 Heavy Flamer

Now that Blood Angles Tactical Squads are now Better at Assaulting than Grey Hunters.

21stPrimarch wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:

21stPrimarch wrote:
I know we cant do full points cost, but can anyone tell me if the Sanguinor dropped at all, and maybe compare him to something? Because dropping his invul to 4++ at his current price point made him worse, a feat i thought unachievable

same as stormraven is what the leak said

Thanks so much man, unless he gets stupid attacks and abilities he is probably still not worth it, but hell, at least he will be doable if you just wanna mess around

He also lost his buff to a character so, yea basically still not worth anything sadly.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Where are you getting 4 flamers from?

Flamer
HF
Combi-flamer

...that's three, one more then salamanders... Whoopy! they get rerolls to wound with them which is actually relevant.

My guess is Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and the Sergeant dual-wielding Hand Flamers.

 BlackArmour wrote:

21stPrimarch wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:

21stPrimarch wrote:
I know we cant do full points cost, but can anyone tell me if the Sanguinor dropped at all, and maybe compare him to something? Because dropping his invul to 4++ at his current price point made him worse, a feat i thought unachievable

same as stormraven is what the leak said

Thanks so much man, unless he gets stupid attacks and abilities he is probably still not worth it, but hell, at least he will be doable if you just wanna mess around

He also lost his buff to a character so, yea basically still not worth anything sadly.

Meh, hopefully he will have the aura of fervor, it could get silly with a libby with the rage psychic spell and that and DC. 7 attacks on the charge lol. 2+2ccw+rage+psychic power+aura......bwahahahaha

 BlackArmour wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Wait... i just looked at the campaign book. Death company and DC dreads are clearly listed as troops. This dude is high.

Yes they are in the formation, however on GW site they were switched to Elite.

**edit** by formation I mean the Deathstorm formation.

Nope. Those are data sheets which mean that you can take them as your troops. But they have to be exactly the same.

Although it will suck using a dreadnought without a strength value.

Trying to look positively at the new Tactical set, I noticed this. This is new, apparently, in model terms, and surely a teleport homer on a Tactical Squad is a positive--let those Assault Jump Pack troops that everyone still has arrive safely? Or those Tactical Terminators that no-one wants? Okay, just trying to find a bright side, besides recycled DC and Sanguinary Guard bitz, in this new Tactical kit.

I just wish we still had the "Vanguard Veterans assault after Deep Strking" rule...that was my favorite.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Trying to look positively at the new Tactical set, I noticed this. This is new, apparently, in model terms, and surely a teleport homer on a Tactical Squad is a positive--let those Assault Jump Pack troops that everyone still has arrive safely? Or those Tactical Terminators that no-one wants? Okay, just trying to find a bright side, besides recycled DC and Sanguinary Guard bitz, in this new Tactical kit.

I just wish we still had the "Vanguard Veterans assault after Deep Strking" rule...that was my favorite.

Unfortunately teleport homers dont work on jump troops, thouvh that would be a cool special rule for us.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Wait... i just looked at the campaign book. Death company and DC dreads are clearly listed as troops. This dude is high.

It wouldn't be the first time GW came out with something very soon before a new release that didn't jive with a new core ruleset or new codex just weeks or days from release. For example, I remember the Apocalypse Reloaded book coming out just a few weeks before 5E came out, with a formation that gave mechanized IG platoons "hold at all costs" allowing them to remain scoring to the last man, which became redundant when 5E made that a thing for all scoring units anyway.

Bummer, I was hoping I would switch my homebrew chapter to BA successors as I wanted to do tons of jumpers. I mean at least they didn't just nerf Assault squads into oblivion like they did to my Wyches, but it would be nice to have more troop options. I sort of had the unrealistic hope that the BA release would somehow make an assault SM army possible.

Maybe better news will come out, or I can just stick with Raven Guard successors.

WS5 S5 I5 fnp tacticals is cool. Vanilla marines get close then stop and keep rapid firing. Blood Angels charge! I like it. If this is true, jump DC for 23pts a model is insane!!! With I5 this time! That's OP my friends. I see nothing to complain about. My mate's unbound death company army is about to kick my ass over and over and over again.

Actually it doesn't even need to be unbound. 4 units of DC, Astorath and two minimum sized scout squads. This is what I'm expecting to see. And a stormraven.

 Kavish wrote:
WS5 S5 I5 fnp tacticals is cool. Vanilla marines get close then stop and keep rapid firing. Blood Angels charge! I like it. If this is true, jump DC for 23pts a model is insane!!! With I5 this time! That's OP my friends. I see nothing to complain about. My mate's unbound death company army is about to kick my ass over and over and over again.

Actually it doesn't even need to be unbound. 4 units of DC, Astorath and two minimum sized scout squads. This is what I'm expecting to see. And a stormraven.

I wouldn't say OP. They're still balanced out by needing to get to combat, but they WILL wreck anything they touch probably.

So on the Bright side of things, since I already run a large DC force and with the new Boxes I have even more , and I will run the datasheet versions as well as the formation giving me 4 slots of DC and DC dreads + the troops versions and I already own every HQ and independent Character , also I have a ton of Priests and I no longer need as many, plus I like my own model for them better than the new one . I wont have to buy new stuff

I literally just changed my Christmas list to a new air compressor, kind of a win win for me. GW thought they had me! but with no new toys for me to buy that interest me well.....sucks for them lol. I'm not even trying to be an I just actually find it funny this release will actually force me to not buy new stuff lol.

I can't wait to see Salamander players using BA dex though.

 Kavish wrote:
WS5 S5 I5 fnp tacticals is cool. Vanilla marines get close then stop and keep rapid firing. Blood Angels charge! I like it. If this is true, jump DC for 23pts a model is insane!!! With I5 this time! That's OP my friends. I see nothing to complain about. My mate's unbound death company army is about to kick my ass over and over and over again.

Actually it doesn't even need to be unbound. 4 units of DC, Astorath and two minimum sized scout squads. This is what I'm expecting to see. And a stormraven.

Yea people seem to be hung up on the assault marines being moved out of troops to notice all the points drops going around. I like the changes. Granted I only have a few squads of assault marines, but you can still use them in the FA slots.

I look forward to trying out some new stuff.

+1I on the charge means BA will wreck any other MEQ army they get the charge on (yes, even GK as long as they're not Purifiers).

hmmmm, does the Deathstorm DC and DC dread add to your troops total or no?

Two Advent Calendar BA days coming up. I'm betting that at least one will be a formation allowing for more HQ, FA, or HS choices to pair up with the extra elites in the Codex Formation.

The cheaper DC, if they can still be brought in giant squads, could be huge when you buff them with a cheaper libby w/ the relic JP and either Astorath or Dante, or both.

Just like any of the codices, there'll be a lot of flavor to choose from, it just won't be like the old bc....well, they sell models and if you could just use what you already had from the previous book, what's the point from their side of things.