Tomsug wrote: What is annoying is, that gunwagon is T8 4+ and Kannonwagon T7 3+. I see the different T due the Open top. But save? There is no logic and it makes a mess in the game...
Jidmah, you wrote, that you prefer ZagZap over Da Boomer on Gunwagon. Could you elaborate it? Do you feel that autohitting is strong enough by eliminating all kinds of -1 to hit from terrain and in combination with MW on 9+ to kill terminators?
Basically, and it's AP-3 and 3 damage even when it doesn't go into overcharge, so even a stormshield deathwing termintor will have a 25% chance to get splatted and its really good at killing gravis. In my experience you basically get one overcharge every time you shoot it, so it's also doesn't feel wasted when you shoot stuff like troupes or daemons. It's hard to mathhammer out, but it feels just that much more reliable at killing the things that matter.
What pinacolada said also is very true - you can really charge a zagzap weagon to switch it off, as you'll be taking auto-hits to the face. Many characters and fast attack units really don't like getting hit by that gun.
I don't play against death guard often, but it's worth considering that da boomer is a joke to them, the only unit that it can do reliable damage to is pox walkers. For every other unit they could possibly bring, you are looking at an average of 2 damage - even if you shoot unhindered all game, you have no chance of getting your points back.
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PiñaColada wrote: I believe the 3+ save is a portent of things to come, pretty sure all battlewagons are getting 3+ saves in our new codex..
Agree. The FW book was definitely written with knowledge of the codices to come, and it makes sense that such heavily armored vehicles like battlewagons to get a 3+ save.
Jidmah wrote: Basically, and it's AP-3 and 3 damage even when it doesn't go into overcharge, so even a stormshield deathwing termintor will have a 25% chance to get splatted and its really good at killing gravis. In my experience you basically get one overcharge every time you shoot it, so it's also doesn't feel wasted when you shoot stuff like troupes or daemons. It's hard to mathhammer out, but it feels just that much more reliable at killing the things that matter.
What pinacolada said also is very true - you can really charge a zagzap weagon to switch it off, as you'll be taking auto-hits to the face. Many characters and fast attack units really don't like getting hit by that gun.
I don't play against death guard often, but it's worth considering that da boomer is a joke to them, the only unit that it can do reliable damage to is pox walkers. For every other unit they could possibly bring, you are looking at an average of 2 damage - even if you shoot unhindered all game, you have no chance of getting your points back.
Well that shift Gunwagon in the slightly different position than the Kannonwagon. With Da Boomer, it' s just the worse version of the same unit. With ZagZap it' s different type of the unit. It' s midfield player with shooting againts problematic targets that can shoot in CC + it has the same transport capacity as a trukk. So you basicly can use such Gunwagon like slower heavy transport with a decent shooting and spare the points for the trukk.
So you have a deffrollaBW like CC transport, ZagZap Gunwagon like midfield shooting transport and Kannonwagon like fast shooting platform in the back.
Tied death guard, smashed knights, smashed slanesh daemons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can someone distinguish between the two Mayhem tournaments? Second list looks little bit like “what I have found in the loot box”... and as seen down on the pic from the app, the second top lists scored significantly less pointsin total...
Jidmah wrote: Stealing this idea from the DG thread:
Which three stratagems do you use most, and why? Pre-game upgrades excluded.
Pre-game:
Da biggest boss
Korkscrew
Gyroscopic whirlygig
In-game:
Ramming speed
Hit 'em harder
Orks is never beaten
I think pre-game picks are pretty self-explanatory. Essentially must-takes with those units.
Ramming speed is so good for bringing threats out of the tellyporta and essentially auto-making 9" charges. Mortal wounds are also always nice.
Hit 'em harder is massive with meganobz, going from 2 to 3 damage. With many vehicles getting no save against -4 AP, they are my dedicated anti-vehicle destroyers.
With orks is never beaten, you gotta save AP to have the biker boss swing again. Haven't had a game yet where he hasn't taken some of the opponent's characters with him.
My top 3 are:
Moar Dakka - we always have at least some dense terrain on the table, and even if nothing is affected by -1 to hit, dropping it on a naut or unit of tankbustas always pays off. Occasionally, I've even thrown it on an advancing Thrakka to gun down some single wound infantry.
Flying 'eadbut - If I'm running any planes for any reason, there will be an opportunity to cause a giant explosion somewhere. The only reason I'm not bringing burna bommers every game is because it gets boring, and it's actually too powerful for some people in my group to handle them.
Hit Em harder - The one reason why MANz are awesome and nobz are not. The extra damage goes a long way in solving all kinds of problems you will face in 9th. 3 damage is the new black green.
Honorable mention to Endless Green Tide. When running infantry, it's so powerful that I try to use it every game, but my opponents are working hard to deny it at any cost. Even in buggy lists, it's sometimes worth picking up a decimated unit of boyz and having them appear in the enemies backfield.
Ramming Speed - uh, do i need to explain?
Moar Dakka - Usually only if i am dealing with a -1 to hit but sometimes if i feel my normal shooting wont be enough
Unstoppable Green Tide - Difficult to get off since everyone is so aware of it they will NOT let a boy squad under 15 stay alive but i have won so many games purely because suddenly 30 boyz behind you.
Huh, ya'll making me think I should be using ramming speed more. Considering I've been running killtanks a lot perhaps that's a good idea. 2D3 mortal wounds on 2+ each isn't anything to sniff at. Especially if I manage a multicharge and am able to allocate those MW to a character.
Ramming speed in combination with unstopable momentu is pure gold. With annything with spiked ram. Pure diamonts with corskcrew scrapjet. Only “combo” in our army I guess....
More dakka - this depends very much on the list. Bustas or Naut are the right targets. Any buggy is very doubtful.
I swear myselft not to use it. Anytime I used it on scrapjet, my rolls were terrible...
Tomsug wrote: Ramming speed in combination with unstopable momentu is pure gold. With annything with spiked ram. Pure diamonts with corskcrew scrapjet. Only “combo” in our army I guess....
More dakka - this depends very much on the list. Bustas or Naut are the right targets. Any buggy is very doubtful.
I swear myselft not to use it. Anytime I used it on scrapjet, my rolls were terrible...
Something I've noticed about unstoppable momentum. You use it after the mortal wounds are inflicted correct? So you aren't forced to guess if you'll kill the target or not.
Mortal wounds from charging (spiked ram, ramming speed) are done after a successful charge, which is still the charge phase.
You cant even attempt to use that strat unless theres nobody near you.
Playing in a 2v2 battle orks + nids vs chaos next weekend. Anyone have any experience teaming with nids? I’d imagine we try to play to each others strengths, but not too familiar with nids.
I guess for everyone else that usually boyz are diminished enough that Get Stuck In, Ladz! isn't worth it, but I've found that it's worth using on boyz to ensure mutual destruction with a unit they're in combat with or for a Killa Klaw Warboss to ensure the death of a unit if they happen to pass a lot of their invuln. saves.
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zoltan88 wrote: Playing in a 2v2 battle orks + nids vs chaos next weekend. Anyone have any experience teaming with nids? I’d imagine we try to play to each others strengths, but not too familiar with nids.
Nids are in kinda a weird spot this edition, since similar to our kustom jobs they will be heavily using pre-game abilities like adaptive physiology to make units like Tyranid Warriors and Exocrines work for them. Barring stuff like Hive Guard and the Exocrine, Nids don't have much meaningful shooting so expect them to use Hive Fleet Kraken with the usual Swarmlord + Genestealers slingshot tactic. Ideally you back him up with quality fire support via mek gunz and potentially buggies, or you double down on board control with boyz. It largely depends on what models you guys have available. Nids will at the very least cover for you in terms of psychic defense thankfully.
Same here. It's either dead anyways or won't be phased by boyz fighting twice. My warboss is usually on a bike, the only character that really could use it for me would be a MA big mek.
Well, I wanted to post the list of the ork guy that won some another tournament in US this week. Nick Nanavati was 4th, so I could call it relevant tournament, until I saw the picture of the table and deploy.
Such lists are irelevant in 9th and I don't know why they play it. Who goes first win. That' s pretty stupid....
For stratagems, Ramming speed is my top one, I love the extra range of the charge it gives and it's a very useful one to put on a Deffkilla who moved & 6" advanced for the fastest redeployment imaginable. It also works on a gorkamorkanaught containing the Redder Armour in an evil suns list supported by a deffkilla for super fast ultra-death!
I must profess to forget about stratagems mostly, and I think my second would be moar dakka as I've used it a few times to some success.
My third, purely because I love flashgitz, is their sparkly rounds one (or whatever it's called) that ups their range. Suddenly that unit with heavy weapons doesn't have to move to shoot you any more, which is brilliant. Especially if someone has maneuvered to keep out of their range!
Ive used Badruk in a few matches, and i actually find him to be really good.
In a situation where i find myself less inclined to run KFFs or maybe even forgoing a warboss if i run a shooty army, ive found Badruk to be quite capable.
His ability to over charge all 3 shots, rerolling 1s for himself, and rerolling 1 extra die if you bring a grot, means he reliably deal good damage even to T8 vehicles. He is also really duable with his 5++, 6 wounds and his regular save of 3.
I still don't get it. In that mission in the picture he should be unable to score more than 20 primary points, 5 for banners and 5 for every killtank left alive. A deathguard or deathwing army can outscore that by just sitting on objectives. Either he had hot dice, was completely anti-meta in that tournament or both.
I guess the lesson learned is that denying charges to your opponent is important, but I doubt we will see a repeat of that kind of army doing well.
I can imagine that pretty easy. He goes first, shoot down anything that moves or shoot long, put the grots on the left obj, let him move his 5-7”, shoot down the rest and shoot him off the objectives. Anyhow he doesnt even need to taky any obj because if he shoots you off the table and you call it off, he usually tooks max VP for primaries for the rest of the turns....
I was on the other side of the table in the same situation againts some Ultramarine gunline on first tournament in 9th last summer. I gave it up T2 after 30 minutes of the game.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: You simply annoy your opponent by your shooting to give up the game....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Few days ago I had a game on TTS on FTC table againts Deathwing Terminators sitting behind the buildings and holding 2 objectives + Priority Targets + WWSWF..... this can ´ t happen on such table
I can imagine that pretty easy. He goes first, shoot down anything that moves or shoot long, put the grots on the left obj, let him move his 5-7”, shoot down the rest and shoot him off the objectives. Anyhow he doesnt even need to taky any obj because if he shoots you off the table and you call it off, he usually tooks max VP for primaries for the rest of the turns....
I was on the other side of the table in the same situation againts some Ultramarine gunline on first tournament in 9th last summer. I gave it up T2 after 30 minutes of the game.....
If this were true, Tau would be good. This is dumb. Da jump and/or deep striking units blow up this game plan to smithereens.
Anyone have any advice for heavy mechanised lists? Following recent discussion I want to drop the boomer for a kannonwagon, but then I lose much needed transport capacity and I'm not sure if how to remedy it without completely changing the list.
Current list in spoilers. I did post it in army lists, but there's been no comments so far. It's been pretty alright in testing, but the boomer is definitely lagging behind lately. I've found the killtank is very swingy, it either carries the game or gets blown up very early.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Clan Kultur / Specialist Mobs: Deathskulls
Detachment Command Cost
+ HQ +
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 125pts]: Brutal but Kunnin, Da Kleverest Boss, Kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw, Warlord
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: Da Biggest Boss, Da Killa Klaw, Power Klaw
Transport capacity? With a gunwagon? What could it be transporting that wasnt just a random KFF mek?
Gunwagon doesnt wanna move forward very quick so it fires twice and its also hard-coded with an 'Ardcase so its never opentopped.
Kannonwagon is opentopped but of course less capacity, but it also doesnt wanna go close to things.
Afrodactyl wrote: Anyone have any advice for heavy mechanised lists? Following recent discussion I want to drop the boomer for a kannonwagon, but then I lose much needed transport capacity and I'm not sure if how to remedy it without completely changing the list.
Current list in spoilers. I did post it in army lists, but there's been no comments so far. It's been pretty alright in testing, but the boomer is definitely lagging behind lately. I've found the killtank is very swingy, it either carries the game or gets blown up very early.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Clan Kultur / Specialist Mobs: Deathskulls
Detachment Command Cost
+ HQ +
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 125pts]: Brutal but Kunnin, Da Kleverest Boss, Kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw, Warlord
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: Da Biggest Boss, Da Killa Klaw, Power Klaw
Vineheart01 wrote:Transport capacity? With a gunwagon? What could it be transporting that wasnt just a random KFF mek?
Gunwagon doesnt wanna move forward very quick so it fires twice and its also hard-coded with an 'Ardcase so its never opentopped.
Kannonwagon is opentopped but of course less capacity, but it also doesnt wanna go close to things.
It has a boys mob in it. I normally creep into the midfield after the killtank has dumped the MANz onto a central objective and the boys help keep it under wraps. Its certainly not ideal, but it's largely worked so far.
zoltan88 wrote:
Do you feel like 1 kill tank is worth 3 CP? Doesn't sound like you do by your post.
Very hit and miss. The shooting is great, and the ramming is great. I've been putting the Mega Mek and the MANz in it and plowing it up the centre of the board. But as ever it's down to whether it gets blasted off the table early or not. Sometimes it's definitely worth the CP, and others its a huge sink in terms of points and CP.
Tomsug wrote: What makes me always said is T4 of the MA Big Mek. In compare to T7 of the warbosses, it' s a huge difference. Why they call him BIG?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don' t give him more than medium
What warboss aside from Ghaz has T7?
Boss on bike, yeah it should be T6 by the usual process but he has a better T star than the Deffkilla boss for whatever reason. Though even the Deffkilla can have T7 with a trait or relic I believe.
Tomsug wrote: What makes me always said is T4 of the MA Big Mek. In compare to T7 of the warbosses, it' s a huge difference. Why they call him BIG?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don' t give him more than medium
What warboss aside from Ghaz has T7?
Motowarboss. But you' re right, regular one is just 5. I' m painting ghazzy and next motowarboss right now so I get little bit overexcited myself But the message is still valid. T4 has every second hummie...
It's possible that the WB on Warbike is showing that Warbosses in our next codex may get to be T6 to go with their S6. Whether that trickles down to the Ork units below them has yet to be seen, though that would make sense with boyz now being both S4 and T4. Nobz becoming S5 and T5 (which would therefore include Big Meks and Weirdboyz) would be a viable stat boost that makes them tougher without just throwing on more wounds or bespoke rules to compensate.
From the sounds of things DE are getting some nice stuff so Xenos aren't been hosed by this edition. Still can't wait till their book is out and GW announces some more codexes. (assuming they use the same pattern of announcing/hinting at a batch of books at once)
So what styles of lists are you guys running these days?
I'm running my battlewagon list at the moment and it's solidly okay, but certainly needs some work. I'm curious as to what other people are running and what people think their lists strengths and weaknesses are to see if I can use that to develop mine further.
Personally i'm running a Deathskull triple killtank list backed up with some boyz to help cast Mech seizures and 2 min meganobz squads in trucks to help secrure the midfield. Backed up by a big Smashagun unit to pick off key targets.
Before that I was running a buggy heavy Freeboota list, also with a big smashagun unit to start of the chain. Also occasionally a trio of nauts with Kustom jobs under freebootaz. But losing specialist detachments hurt. The Kustom Ammo stratagem made that list sing.
I still think we need a super heavy infantry option (not literal lords of war, just a step above Meganobz) A few armies have them, such as ogryns, centurions, oblitorators, grotesques, kinda tyranid warrors and the like. Something that's just a few steps down from being a character or monstrous creature while still being a great sink for buffs of any sort. It feels like orks, a faction obsessed with being the biggest and flashiest should have them. And honestly nobz just feel sort of tame when compared to primaris in both model and fluff.
Grimskul wrote: It's possible that the WB on Warbike is showing that Warbosses in our next codex may get to be T6 to go with their S6. Whether that trickles down to the Ork units below them has yet to be seen, though that would make sense with boyz now being both S4 and T4. Nobz becoming S5 and T5 (which would therefore include Big Meks and Weirdboyz) would be a viable stat boost that makes them tougher without just throwing on more wounds or bespoke rules to compensate.
Nob warbikers still are T5 though...
Sadly we only have DG as a hint on how much the FW book authors knew about upcoming codices, but the greater blight drone already had all the stat changes of DG incorporated - extra attack, better WS/BS and rules that plugged in well despite almost everything being completely reworked.
There is a non-zero chance of battlewagons going to 3+ armor and gunwagons becoming BS4+ though, and buzzgob went to T5 and 4 attacks.
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cody.d. wrote: I still think we need a super heavy infantry option (not literal lords of war, just a step above Meganobz) A few armies have them, such as ogryns, centurions, oblitorators, grotesques, kinda tyranid warrors and the like. Something that's just a few steps down from being a character or monstrous creature while still being a great sink for buffs of any sort. It feels like orks, a faction obsessed with being the biggest and flashiest should have them. And honestly nobz just feel sort of tame when compared to primaris in both model and fluff.
Honestly, if you apply the terminator changes to MANz, they should go to 4 wounds. That's all the super-heavy infantry you'll ever need.
GW also seems to be bent on giving everyone sergeant style models or vastly improving the existing ones, so the new git might be an elite character with a bunch of abilities tacked on.
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Afrodactyl wrote: So what styles of lists are you guys running these days?
I'm running my battlewagon list at the moment and it's solidly okay, but certainly needs some work. I'm curious as to what other people are running and what people think their lists strengths and weaknesses are to see if I can use that to develop mine further.
When I'm playing orks (I'm not doing that a lot right now, DG are just way more fun), it's usually deathskulls buggies backed by big guns: morkanaut, a gunwagon/kannonwagon, trukk boyz for troops and MANz. I'm trying to reduce the number of vehicles that want to rush ahead, because it always feels like half the army is stuck in a traffic jam during the first two turns. That was made blatantly clear to me when one of my regular opponents used the orbital strike stratagem on me, and I was unable to get even half the units out of the blast radius. It didn't lose me the game, but taking 15+ mortal wounds from a stratagem is nothing to whif at.
Writing this makes me want to try a morkanaut, zagzap and a kannon weagon in one army. Might also give lootas another chance. Look at me, I'm the gunline now!
Afrodactyl wrote: So what styles of lists are you guys running these days?
I'm running my battlewagon list at the moment and it's solidly okay, but certainly needs some work. I'm curious as to what other people are running and what people think their lists strengths and weaknesses are to see if I can use that to develop mine further.
I've been enjoying an infantry heavy deffskullz list.
Great w/ engage, scramblers, raise banners, domination. Everything except heavy is obsec. I haven't played anyone that can table me yet due to increased durability as deffskullz. Strategy is just to overwhelm the board with bodies and rack up the points early.
I wanted to make a Bad Moon list since i got my hands on 15 tankbustas and 6 squig bombs (although 15 might be too much), but next to having tankbustas, i dont know what other kind of key units fits in this army. My tankbustas would be the unit i use "showing off" on i believe its called, on, and im not sure if they should come in for 1 CP as strategic reserve from the sides, or be sitting inside a battlewagon with forktress. Of course i would ditch 1 squig then as a battlewagon cant house 21 models.
I dont have any lootas. Bad Moon lists are they infantry heavy or vehicle heavy? Does one go large blobs of boyz for massed shooting? Im having a bit of a hard time deciding what i need and what makes sense.
Beardedragon wrote: I wanted to make a Bad Moon list since i got my hands on 15 tankbustas and 6 squig bombs (although 15 might be too much), but next to having tankbustas, i dont know what other kind of key units fits in this army. My tankbustas would be the unit i use "showing off" on i believe its called, on, and im not sure if they should come in for 1 CP as strategic reserve from the sides, or be sitting inside a battlewagon with forktress. Of course i would ditch 1 squig then as a battlewagon cant house 21 models.
I dont have any lootas. Bad Moon lists are they infantry heavy or vehicle heavy? Does one go large blobs of boyz for massed shooting? Im having a bit of a hard time deciding what i need and what makes sense.
Mass of shoota boyz with rerolls is mass of nothing with rerolls. Skip it. Tankbustas and Lootas works propably the best. It' s hard to find a unit with a mass shooting in our codex to use mass rerolls of one. And there are almost none, that are mass strong shooting. And if you reduce the filtr to INFANTRY because of Showin off startegem, just these two can work.
Beardedragon wrote: I wanted to make a Bad Moon list since i got my hands on 15 tankbustas and 6 squig bombs (although 15 might be too much), but next to having tankbustas, i dont know what other kind of key units fits in this army. My tankbustas would be the unit i use "showing off" on i believe its called, on, and im not sure if they should come in for 1 CP as strategic reserve from the sides, or be sitting inside a battlewagon with forktress. Of course i would ditch 1 squig then as a battlewagon cant house 21 models.
I dont have any lootas. Bad Moon lists are they infantry heavy or vehicle heavy? Does one go large blobs of boyz for massed shooting? Im having a bit of a hard time deciding what i need and what makes sense.
Mass of shoota boyz with rerolls is mass of nothing with rerolls. Skip it. Tankbustas and Lootas works propably the best. It' s hard to find a unit with a mass shooting in our codex to use mass rerolls of one. And there are almost none, that are mass strong shooting. And if you reduce the filtr to INFANTRY because of Showin off startegem, just these two can work.
right. And ill be using showing off on my tankbustas untill they die. It feels like shoota boys would be thematically correct to have but if its bad then i guess i take them in smaller troves. Should they even remain shoota boys or slugga boys in a bad moon list?
The filter doesnt have to be only infantry. Im just looking at lists for bad moon in general.
But i just dont know what to fill out the rest of the rooster with. every time i try i fall short on units that makes sense to pick. Should i get gorkanauts for their many shots? gunwagons? I dont know. I often fall back, unconsiously, to my up close and personal units like: oh i need to have room for Mega Nobz, and bonebreakas etc.
I can make Evil Sunz, Goff and Deathskulls lists, but im fairly bad at picking correct units that benefits in a bad moons list. Also freebotas i guess but thats another story (except mandatory flash gitz maybe and badruk)
Statistically, anything with 12 or more shots benefits more from bad moons than deffskullz reroll. So if you want to take shoota boyz, take shoota boyz. 12 shoota boyz in a trukk is 24 shots so it doesn't necessarily have to be blobs of 30. This also means morkanauts, stompas, da boomer and SAG and kannonwagon but only if they are targeting units with 11+ models, lootas, flashgitz, deff dreads with 4 big shootas (not recommended), etc. Every unit doesn't have to be geared towards the kultur though. I'd also throw some units in there to help you with secondaries like kommandos and/or gretchin. Some durable melee units would be nice to hold your front line. Your meganobz would do the trick. Note, the SAG with the bad moons warlord trait is pretty solid. If you go that route, you'll also be doing a dread waaagh specialist detachment which means you can make your morkanaut shoot twice with the kustom ammo strat.
If you are running 15 tankbustas, i'd throw em in a battlewagon personally. 2CP to deep strike plus 2 more CP for showing off is quite ridiculous. Also, the battlewagon could get you close enough for the extra stikkbombs strategem to throw 15 tankbusta bombs. Note: you can combine this strategem with showing off to do 22 wounds on average to a T8 target aka knights.
I would also look into gargantuan and regular squiggoths if you want to have some real fun. They are the only transport with the "howdah" rule that allows units embarked to shoot enemies that are in engagement with the squiggoth, and also if the squiggoth moves, falls back, or charges but does not advance, the units embarked count as having remained stationary. You could tellyport a regular squiggoth in with 10 lootas inside that can shoot into melee. Could be fun.
I dont have a regular Squiggoth but i do have a gargantuan one. Its expensive, but tankbustas up there do sound like fun.
For an alternative "deepstrike" you could put the Tankbustas in tactical reserve and make them enter the side edge of the map for 1 CP rather than deepstriking them for 2CP, as the line is drawn at 9powerlevel, and 15 tankbustas is 8.
And thanks. Ill give it a look. As orks, i find it easier to make a CC army with some ranged support, rather than making a shooting army, with some CC and objective taking support. Not sure why
Beardedragon wrote: I dont have a regular Squiggoth but i do have a gargantuan one. Its expensive, but tankbustas up there do sound like fun.
For an alternative "deepstrike" you could put the Tankbustas in tactical reserve and make them enter the side edge of the map for 1 CP rather than deepstriking them for 2CP, as the line is drawn at 9powerlevel, and 15 tankbustas is 8.
And thanks. Ill give it a look. As orks, i find it easier to make a CC army with some ranged support, rather than making a shooting army, with some CC and objective taking support. Not sure why
Beardedragon wrote: I dont have a regular Squiggoth but i do have a gargantuan one. Its expensive, but tankbustas up there do sound like fun.
For an alternative "deepstrike" you could put the Tankbustas in tactical reserve and make them enter the side edge of the map for 1 CP rather than deepstriking them for 2CP, as the line is drawn at 9powerlevel, and 15 tankbustas is 8.
And thanks. Ill give it a look. As orks, i find it easier to make a CC army with some ranged support, rather than making a shooting army, with some CC and objective taking support. Not sure why
15 tankbustas is 12 PL buddy.
Yeees i think im misreading how the power system works.
Thanks for clarifying. Then i would be able to throw 10 tankbustas instead rather than 15 in tactical reserve. Luckily squig bombs dont take power rating so i can still add 4 of those.
Power levels are pointed out in the unit datasheet plainly.
The number in the box is the base value for a default squad size, the text at the top box explains if you add X models the PL is now Y, and if you add XX models the PL is now YY
But Zoltan, you said put tankbustas in a battlewagon and use showing off on them. But you cant use stratagems on embarked units. So driving up and throwing 10 tankgrenades i believe would not be possible.
I Also Think extra stikbomms maxes out at 10 models throwing
I used to be go first, but more and more I tend to be go second.
In fact I' m a stoic in nature so I don't care and you can' t do anything with it, but there used to be a stat on goonhammer, orks are about very much go first = win army. Which has some influence on the list. And when I'm loking back I see a lot of changes in my list eliminating the go second death.
1. Play the 9th ed tables with covers.
2. Spam one type of target.
3. Have some invu, doesn' t matter 6++ deathskulls of 5++ kff. Except.....
4. Use 5++ large transport to block LOS
cody.d. wrote: I still think we need a super heavy infantry option (not literal lords of war, just a step above Meganobz) A few armies have them, such as ogryns, centurions, oblitorators, grotesques, kinda tyranid warrors and the like. Something that's just a few steps down from being a character or monstrous creature while still being a great sink for buffs of any sort. It feels like orks, a faction obsessed with being the biggest and flashiest should have them. And honestly nobz just feel sort of tame when compared to primaris in both model and fluff.
Honestly, if you apply the terminator changes to MANz, they should go to 4 wounds. That's all the super-heavy infantry you'll ever need.
GW also seems to be bent on giving everyone sergeant style models or vastly improving the existing ones, so the new git might be an elite character with a bunch of abilities tacked on.
But termies are still just heavy to my mind. And unless they have some special rule like inner circle they still have the issue of not being all that special. Indeed a Kustom shoota and klaw or 2 killsaws isn't all that special compaired to what the average nob can put out. Indeed compared to said super infantry it's pretty tame.
In another room I put forward the idea of Flashgit type models with mega armour and think that would fit the bill. Especially if it's a pair of snazzgun's or a heavier version of the base snazzgun. Indeed the snazzline of weapons could be given the KMB treatment, where once it was just one weapon now it's got a pistol, heavy, vehicle and heavy vehicle variant.
cody.d. wrote: I still think we need a super heavy infantry option (not literal lords of war, just a step above Meganobz) A few armies have them, such as ogryns, centurions, oblitorators, grotesques, kinda tyranid warrors and the like. Something that's just a few steps down from being a character or monstrous creature while still being a great sink for buffs of any sort. It feels like orks, a faction obsessed with being the biggest and flashiest should have them. And honestly nobz just feel sort of tame when compared to primaris in both model and fluff.
Honestly, if you apply the terminator changes to MANz, they should go to 4 wounds. That's all the super-heavy infantry you'll ever need.
GW also seems to be bent on giving everyone sergeant style models or vastly improving the existing ones, so the new git might be an elite character with a bunch of abilities tacked on.
But termies are still just heavy to my mind. And unless they have some special rule like inner circle they still have the issue of not being all that special. Indeed a Kustom shoota and klaw or 2 killsaws isn't all that special compaired to what the average nob can put out. Indeed compared to said super infantry it's pretty tame.
In another room I put forward the idea of Flashgit type models with mega armour and think that would fit the bill. Especially if it's a pair of snazzgun's or a heavier version of the base snazzgun. Indeed the snazzline of weapons could be given the KMB treatment, where once it was just one weapon now it's got a pistol, heavy, vehicle and heavy vehicle variant.
Agreed. If it's not bespoke rules, I'd at least like more killiness when it comes to raw stats for the weapons. Kustom shootas should be our equivalent of MC bolters, so AP-1 D2, assault 4. I always found it weird that Snazzguns weren't available to Warbosses. Having a snazz-slugga, a snazzgun, and making the boomdakka snazzwagon's gun a better version of that would be a natural progression.
Honestly I reckon freebootaz are one of the underutilized elements of the ork lineup. That and the hero classes (IE Bosses, painboyz and Meks of different specializations). Just saying, those are the only real ways I can see GW adding new models to without a total rework ala the buggies.
Jidmah wrote: Honestly, I don't really want new units at this point. They should just go an fix everything we already have.
Isn' t it new codex = new models? But honestly, it' s a pretty short time since the drop of the bunch of the new buggies. So my guess is 2 new single-pose characters, one of them auto-legend and maybe some extension to Mekboy Workshop. So yes, your wish could come true
Well, Drukhari got a single finecast model updated and DG got what amounts to a wargear option for lords and their faction terrain.
I'm game for finecast updates or finally releasing propper koptas, but outside of characters I don't really see any holes in our line. However, I do see 9 datasheets planted firmly in trash tier and quite a few signature units like kanz, warbikers or lootas being barely usable.
Model releases never really have been a big issue for orks, it has always been the rules which were limiting our army selection. In that regard the current status is better than ever, but there still is room for improvement.
I agree. Orks already have many options to choose from, be it characters, vehicles or units.
I just want to be able to use them without feeling handicapped!
I would really like to see the meks do something more for vehicles besides carrying a KFF. I would like to see painboyz supporting squads of Nobz and Flashgits, and I would love the look of warbikers riding alongside buggies and trukks.
According to Stevo, theres a 2021 Munitorum field manual mk 1 that comes with the white dwarf magazine that puts Deffkopta rokkits at the same price tag as the Twin big shootas. Looking through the video, it sure does say 10+ points for rokkits but also for twin big shootas.
When does such a change go through? Is that relevant now already? I it a mistake?
Edit: Apparently this change is different from the FAQ munitorum field manual thats online on games workshops own webpage. The name is the same, both is 2021 and mk 1, but for some reason the kopta rokkits are cheaper in the physical manual, than the PDF version
Maybe the Ork codex was already supposed to be out by the time this WD dropped and they forgot to change some things back.. Maybe it's a simple mistake and they accidentally pasted the same points cost twice. It'd certainly make them interesting but if it turns out to be true then GW better buff those damn big shootas through the roof, because that's not an equivalent loadout.
If it is true then a 5man deffkopta squad with evil sunz, visions in da smoke and drive-by krumpin' is even more tempting. It's pretty good even now but that feels like more in spite of the deffkoptas than anything else.
Yeah really all i truly want new model wise is a proper warboss kit with actual options (as in give him access to damn near the entire codex, da boss gets da biggest an' bestest toyz so why the gak does he only get an S4 AP0 gun...)
Both because proper warbosses are ancient models and usually require modification, but also because GW's mindset = they wont do anything unless its a new model as well, and bosses need more than a statboost they need options.
cody.d. wrote: Most likley they'll get a few upgrades like the various marine characters. Or at least I certainly hope so. Very keen to see all the stuff DE gets.
Well tomorrow we have a GW preview. So maybe we'll get lucky with that?
Well it looks like we are getting a model for Snakebites.
Going by the artwork in the teaser we may be getting a good deal more than just squigboar cavalry. The war-wagon and the savage boss seemed a little too specific in their design to not be alluding to actual models in production.
Looks like they are going to just relabel a whole bunch of AoS stuff "snakebites" and drop it on us.
Pig-noses are not new for Orks, but yea whoever they've got working on the non-goblin greenskin stuff in general is not the greatest at sculpting Orc/Ork heads. Weak jawlines, undersized tusks, not very expressive faces, and they sort of squash the noses a bit too much.
I have no objections on general principles with the idea of expanding the squig beasts and low-tech Ork end of our range. I'd have preferred it to come after they addressed a few key models that are outdated, we all know the ones, but GW will always find wholly new model releases more attractive than redesigns.
The new squig riders I'm not quite sold on but maybe I'll warm up to them. What are we thinking T6 and 4 wounds? Basically bigger nob bikers with less dakka..?
That heavy chariot squig could be cool and the new mek/doc has potential as well. But I'm mostly psyched about what looks like a new "vanilla" warboss in mega armour (with presumably BS4+ since it's a grot-manned, shoulder mounted gun).
The Ork in the video says, "...we're the strongest, in any clan we're in", which suggests that Beast Snaggas are not (exclusively) Snakebites, but rather a group like Speed Freeks that can work in any clan. While I don't exactly miss my 2e Boar Boyz, I do like the idea of having more Squigs around.
Also, the mini reveal suggests that the new Ork Codex isn't too far off, as Ad Mech has to be next, and then probably Sisters, and then Orks.
Not really. 40k orks have slightly triangular noses, those flat round noses can only be found on ork release for AoS.
I know it's just a matter of taste, but I really don't like the look.
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AceXT wrote: The Ork in the video says, "...we're the strongest, in any clan we're in", which suggests that Beast Snaggas are not (exclusively) Snakebites, but rather a group like Speed Freeks that can work in any clan. While I don't exactly miss my 2e Boar Boyz, I do like the idea of having more Squigs around.
Also, the mini reveal suggests that the new Ork Codex isn't too far off, as Ad Mech has to be next, and then probably Sisters, and then Orks.
Possible, considering how feral orks are to snakebites as speed freeks are to evil suns.
Squig cav, NICE! I was not expecting a bone to be thrown for Orks in the preview. While I am glad that they're giving us new things, I am also worried this will be an excuse for them to avoid updating stuff like deffkoptas and our Warboss. So at the very least, I hope that this is a larger scale release that covers enough of our older stuff that needs updating while also bringing in new design elements.
Yeah, they might just have a keyword like speed freeks and gain an extra little buff if you use them as snakebites. Or they might be like flash gitz and they're separate from the rest of the kulturs unless you're playing snakebites but otherwise they don't break your detachments.
Hmm I still have 12 ork cyboars that seem to proxy fine as these new orks but we will see when they finally come out if I can dust off those old models or buy new ones.
To be fair I see several new models in that video. Which is significant since most of the models in the artwork are already legit models so showing specific models like new squig riders and a new warboss is huge deal.
New models in artwork
Squig riders
Heavy weapon squig riders
Mega armor warboss
Plus red squigs which might not be new models.
PiñaColada wrote: The new squig riders I'm not quite sold on but maybe I'll warm up to them. What are we thinking T6 and 4 wounds? Basically bigger nob bikers with less dakka..?
I wouldn't discount 4 wounds just by virtue of the size of the mount, but the one shown is definitely not meant to be a Nob, the grot is much too large compared to the rider for it to be anything but a Boy. We do see a larger, cyborked-up rider in the trailer art that is likely the boss Nob. He's also got a double clawed weapon that looks an awful lot like a rumor engine from a while back.
Jidmah wrote: Not really. 40k orks have slightly triangular noses, those flat round noses can only be found on ork release for AoS.
I know it's just a matter of taste, but I really don't like the look.
What I'm saying is, most Orcs/Orks (regardless of setting) have that style of nose and they're staying consistent to it, but the sculptor who's been getting the greenskin projects lately is not very good at getting the details right on the prototypical Orc/Ork face. One of the telltales is that the nose is a bit pudgier and more rounded on the corners than it should be. Ironjaws don't have this problem (though they still have weak jawlines), but take a look at several of the heads from the buggy releases and you'll see those noses.
There's always headswaps, though. These guys are probably not on my list to acquire but Mork knows we've all got spare heads for days, shouldn't be a problem.
PiñaColada wrote: The new squig riders I'm not quite sold on but maybe I'll warm up to them. What are we thinking T6 and 4 wounds? Basically bigger nob bikers with less dakka..?
I wouldn't discount 4 wounds just by virtue of the size of the mount, but the one shown is definitely not meant to be a Nob, the grot is much too large compared to the rider for it to be anything but a Boy. We do see a larger, cyborked-up rider in the trailer art that is likely the boss Nob. He's also got a double clawed weapon that looks an awful lot like a rumor engine from a while back.
No, the Ork is clearly a boy and not a nob. But I was just talking about datasheets and I assume that the giant squig has a decent/good attack profile in addition to what the boy and grot bring to the table. The clawed up guy I presume (much like you) is wielding the klaw from the rumour engine, which I assumed was a snagga klaw then and considering the name of these guys it surely has to be now, right?
Not sure how i feel about them.
We already have 3 "biker" type units, though one is a vehicle atm for some reason and naturally this would be cavalry but similar roles regardless.
In addition....that looks like a fantasy ork with a 40k melee weapon. Which feels jarring.
It will be interesting to see how they differentiate them appropriately without stepping too much on each other's toes, though I have a bad feeling they might do a repeat of what they did with the buggies and have 2 of them fall behind because there's too much overlap.
Ideally, regular warbikers get a big price cut and they're the cost efficient lower level dakka/choppa platform where you can pack the numbers. Nob Warbikers would need strats or weapons buffs for them to change, assuming the FW datasheet and points values stay the same. Deffkoptas should be focused on as a skirmishing/harrassment backfield unit. The new squig riders on the other hand should be the melee focused unit that wants to be in a scrum in the middle of the board, possibly with some form of mortal wound generation from charges. I feel like Nob bikers or Warbikers will probably be one of the losers in this update, since they're limited to a fairly one-note loadout that will require some form of bespoke ruleset or significant price cut to be competitive.
Vineheart01 wrote: Not sure how i feel about them.
We already have 3 "biker" type units, though one is a vehicle atm for some reason and naturally this would be cavalry but similar roles regardless.
In addition....that looks like a fantasy ork with a 40k melee weapon. Which feels jarring.
Warbikers are extremely underwhelming as melee cavalry, and from the description given in the stream these guys also seem to be geared towards going after heavy targets (monsters and vehicles), so while there might be a bit of role jostling with Nob bikers, there is an unfilled niche they can fit, depending on the price and stats. As far as weapons go I will reserve judgment until we see more of the kit, plus there's something odd going on with the rider's weapon - it almost looks like there's micro-rokkits attached to it, so I do wonder if these are going to be melee and shooting profile weapons (probably short range high Str).
I think there will be bigger redundancy conflicts with a couple of the other, potentially teased models in the trailer - slugga/choppa squig rider boyz (because you definitely think of orks when it comes to cavalry mounted pistol shootists?!) and the big squigboar-pulled wagon that is absolutely bristling with guns. How many more heavy tanks do we really need?
Cavalry will most likely be the melee versions of bikers/buggie... especially if they have thier own version of warboss on bike if not hopefully the warboss on bike waaagh ability will include cavalry.
Buggies should stay as mobile gun platforms as none of them are really decent at melee. Some like the scrapjet are just okay at it. Warbikers should be similar to squig riders but much faster and have more dakka gun shots... in other words squig riders should be slower cheaper and have more attacks overall but have a few hard hitting melee hits and FNP. Honestly snakebites should have thier class ability upgraded to a +1 fnp modifier and stack w painboy/squig riders. I agree though someone is going to be the odd man out.
I’m suspecting squig units to be much slower then bikers/buggies... 6in movement is my guess 8in if we are lucky...
cody.d. wrote: Most likley they'll get a few upgrades like the various marine characters. Or at least I certainly hope so. Very keen to see all the stuff DE gets.
Well tomorrow we have a GW preview. So maybe we'll get lucky with that?
Well it looks like we are getting a model for Snakebites.
Spoiler:
Well i have been saying for ages that orks need more squig representation. Also is it odd i think the grot looks better than the actual rider?
Afrodactyl wrote: I've just taken a closer look at the choppa they're holding. Looks like a rough rider esque explosive weapon or a power stabba to me.
Yeah you're right. Some sort of rokkit or explosive tip to the spear? Goodness knows what the rules will be. Likley an extra swing from the grot and some extra chomps from the squig to suppliment a limited amount of high quality attacks from the spear itself. But just guessing mind you.
So next new ork wave is Snakebites? Well.... If I had liked to model some fantasy, I would play AoS.
After discussion here about different wagons, I' ve gave a try to them.
I run a list with usual mix of buggies and kommandos + deffrola Battlewagon (4 manz and 10grots inside), Gunwagon with ZagZap (10 boyz and kff mek inside) and Kannonwagon.
Jidmah, you were right. ZagZap is very decent. Last game was againts Tau with tones of -1to hit huge drons and ZagZap was exactly the solution.
MANz and Grots standing in front of them works also great. If you describe well how grot shield works in advance, most of the people shoot at grots first. So grots protect the MANz and you don' t have to waste the CP for the real grotshield
Why not? The minimum save is 2+ of course. If I remeber right, you can use +1 save againts AP, so you still have 2+ againts ap -1. There was some FAQ like this,
Or do I remeber it wrong?
“Improve the Save characteristic of that infantry unit by 1 (e.g. a Save characteristic of 6+ will become a Save characteristic of 5+), to a maximum of 2+” so you' re right, I play it wrong. Oups..
Tomsug wrote: So next new ork wave is Snakebites? Well.... If I had liked to model some fantasy, I would play AoS.
After discussion here about different wagons, I' ve gave a try to them.
I run a list with usual mix of buggies and kommandos + deffrola Battlewagon (4 manz and 10grots inside), Gunwagon with ZagZap (10 boyz and kff mek inside) and Kannonwagon.
Jidmah, you were right. ZagZap is very decent. Last game was againts Tau with tones of -1to hit huge drons and ZagZap was exactly the solution.
MANz with Loot it and Grots standing in front of them works also great. Super hard to kill. If you describe well how grot shield works in advance, most of the people shoot at grots first. So grots protect the MANz and you don' t have to waste the CP for the real grotshield
Ninja'ed by JNAProductions.
The pregame upgrade stuff for Archons, Succubi, and Haemonculi gives me a lot of hope for what they'll do for Ork leadership, they'll probably call it a Council of WAAAGH! and let you upgrade a Warboss to be a Warlord/Biggest Boss with his corresponding special ability/stat boost as well as bespoke WL trait and relic, followed by our Big Mek becoming a Mek Boss, and our Painboy becoming either a Mad Dok or Painboss.
With the way you can upgrade units into Bloodbrides and Trueborn, I can see them doing the same for Ardboyz (probably instead of a unit cap, maybe one upgrade per detachment?). I can even see the Bully Boyz making a comeback this way, with them being a Meganobz retinue option for a Biggest Boss or Ghazzy, getting +1WS and an extra attack.
I think the upgrades for biggest boss, cleverest boss and weirdboy will just become points upgrades. Doc is not an HQ, but a support character so it's unlikely that they would work in a similar way.
Bully boyz seems likely, considering that one of the WD goff sheets also does something similar.
It's also a given that kustom job will cost points in future, though I hope they manage to balance that properly.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if hit em harder becomes a bespoke rule. Either for meganobs in general or for the bullyboyz upgraded meganobz. It just seems too easy and straightforward. Exactly what GW would do. Also, kidna makes sense. An ork in a powered suit of armour would hit harder with a killsaw than one out of said armour would.
some bloke wrote: I'm hoping that this is instead them making big shootas a lot better! otherwise there's no way 2 big shootas = 2 rokkits.
Possibly they will upgrade them similar to the heavy bolter treatment...sadly I doubt it will be worth as much. Atm a heavy bolter is 10pts on a model with BS3 It is 3 shots at S5 AP-1 and 2 Damage.
if they upgrade Big shootas to be Flat 2 dmg they will still be garbage, if they give it AP-1 and 2 dmg it will be worth 5pts on a BS5 model.
2 Big shootas at 5pts each with S5 Ap-1 and 2dmg equals literally the same as a heavy bolter in the hands of a Space Marine at BS3 In fact, the price point between the two is fairly equal with the 2 boyz costing 16pts and the 1 Space Marine costing 18. All we can do is wait and see.
I don' t want the changes. I' m happy now. There is so much more to try...
And I' m sad from Snakebites era. I hoped the walkers Killkans / Deffdreads / Mega Dreads era will come. Or anything more 40k. I don' t want to paint the spears...
Walkers are close to being viable they get fixed by allowing kans to have clan traits, price drops, and I’m super glad that the ork codex is coming out Immediately after this editions mid rules change... armies of renown is a great way to fix kans by stacking extra rules to help them.
Every edition tends to have a mid edition codex additional rules change that adds to the power creep.. most non space marine armies tend to get left out because they have thier new codex.
Yeah they dont reallyh need to do much to make all the ork walkers awesome.
Deffdreads getting the -1 damage is probably expected and would be substantial (with 8w and a cheap-ish cost, bulk of what hit them was 2-3D guns so big difference there)
Killakanz need kulture perks and strat access, they of all the gretchin should be allowed (though i'd be happier to see that restriction gone entirely). Doubt they'd get the -1 damage but they could get a 6++ or something else minor to help durability.
Nauts really just need a slight price drop, their stats are awesome as is just a tad pricy.
I would like to see point cut for warbikers and maybe a clan trait (evil sunz) to give them obsec.
I would love to have playable greenskin motorcycle gang.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah they dont reallyh need to do much to make all the ork walkers awesome.
Deffdreads getting the -1 damage is probably expected and would be substantial (with 8w and a cheap-ish cost, bulk of what hit them was 2-3D guns so big difference there)
Killakanz need kulture perks and strat access, they of all the gretchin should be allowed (though i'd be happier to see that restriction gone entirely). Doubt they'd get the -1 damage but they could get a 6++ or something else minor to help durability.
Nauts really just need a slight price drop, their stats are awesome as is just a tad pricy.
Stompa will never be good
I have doubts that dreads will get a -1 damage rule. Much more likely that ramshackle will be ported over to most if not all ork vehicles. Less reliable but potentially more powerful when a damage 8 attack becomes a 1.
Warbikers should get -1 to hit
Dreads -1 to damage
Like others have said I’m not sure that’s happening
So my model most likely to be cut from codex and sent to legends....
- deffkoptas
-zagstrukk
Snikrot is close but his mold isn’t nearly as bad as zagstruk
I really feel like they won't get rid of Zagstruk, Snikrot, or Badrukk. All three still have very serviceable modern designs and even if they're in finecast I don't think they'll be getting rid of them that quickly. Mad Dok Grotsnik would be the most likely option given how tiny and old his model is currently, though I would love to see him properly updated.
Tomsug wrote: I' ve played another few games with my wagon lists and Jidmah - hey - Zagzap is really interesting and great! Unbelievable level of reliability!
In compare, Kannonwagon is really the trick or treat...
Glad to hear!
Sometimes it's just worth tossing all those underused units in an army and see how far they go
Oh, I do hope that this is a preclude to a whole bunch of squig-based stuff for the orks. I want to see dedicated transport squiggoths, and perhaps some gretchin-based squigs.
Based on GWs policy of "make a cool model and then stat it exactly as it is modeled", though, I am now expecting this squig rider to have an orks ballistic skill and a grots weapon skill...
Grimskul wrote: I really feel like they won't get rid of Zagstruk, Snikrot, or Badrukk. All three still have very serviceable modern designs and even if they're in finecast I don't think they'll be getting rid of them that quickly. Mad Dok Grotsnik would be the most likely option given how tiny and old his model is currently, though I would love to see him properly updated.
Badrukk looks terrible, model wise, but i do use him in my shooting armies. Hes not a bad unit, he has good stats i feel. I dont hope they remove him.
Furthermore for Zagstruk and Snikrot, i have both of them (unpainted tho) so i hope they will still be updated.
The video is pretty telling of what we can expect - GW doesn't bother with creating art for things they don't plan to sell anymore. A list of things in the video that don't have models:
. squig herd* - Nob/boss wearing something that might be MA with big choppa and grot turret - MAN with chainaxe* - previewed fourlegged squig rider, with cyberboar and nob(?) with klaw option - painboy with faceshield and squig-drip* - squig-sled with rokkit, big shootas, kannon? and some boss with an ork on top that seems to have a mek-glyph for a boss pole - two-legged squig rider with slugga - nobz with unique armor, slugga and choppa (seems to be the model which has been partially reviewed last year) - Warboss that looks like the AoS megaboss with shoulder-mounted squig turret and a sword-looking choppa.
*might just be artistic freedom and not be actual new models
The only reason I think zagstruk might be removed is his official model is horribly miscast.. the model I got from Gw several years ago was so bad I had to carve out certain pieces and green stuff a lot just to remove all the resin that was wrong... snikrot and badrukk didn’t give me those issues. I’m also half assuming we get a named HQ since remaking named models is popular at gw.
I can’t see them removing all the named resin either.
That's just regular finecast troubles though. You essentially have a relatively high chance of running into those issue whenever you buy any finecast models that used to be metal.
Tomsug wrote: I don' t want the changes. I' m happy now. There is so much more to try...
And I' m sad from Snakebites era. I hoped the walkers Killkans / Deffdreads / Mega Dreads era will come. Or anything more 40k. I don' t want to paint the spears...
Tbh im the complete opposite. Squigs are a huge part of Orkoid warfare and we have been missing Squigs for so long. If the game can have Thunderwolf cav, Deathriders, Seekers, Serberys, etc why is an Ork riding a large Squig too far from 40k? Everything about Orks are engineered for warfare, Squigs are your low-tech equivalent of bikes, vehicles and other weapons of war that are widely available which also doesnt have a huge logistical cost behind it. Orks are the perfect species when it comes to fighting, their use of Squigs and the many kinds they have is utterly alien and interesting.
For so long ive been wanting Squigs to be more fleshed out for 40k. Nobz enforcers with Attack Squigs, Squig Herd, smaller Squiggoths that are more like Knarloc riders. I dont think they look out of place in 40k, people have been using Brutes. Megabosses and Ard Boyz in 40k for ages. If you dont want to paint spears, give them Big Choppas, or Power Stabbas... Glue a Slugga and some Stikkbombs to them, give them some traditional Orky armour, do a head swap. Personally what has been teased is perfect (except maybe the Warboss at the end, he looks too over the top in my eyes).
We already kind of had the era of Kan walls and Dreadmobs, just like we had the era of Nob Bikers and Greentide. I think the new Codex will improve a lot of our units and I think we will receive some fundamental changes (like Waaagh! becoming more of an army wide thing, like how now Dark Eldar can all advance and charge turn 2) that will bring most of the aspects of Orky warfare up to 9th edition standards.
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gungo wrote: The only reason I think zagstruk might be removed is his official model is horribly miscast.. the model I got from Gw several years ago was so bad I had to carve out certain pieces and green stuff a lot just to remove all the resin that was wrong... snikrot and badrukk didn’t give me those issues. I’m also half assuming we get a named HQ since remaking named models is popular at gw.
I can’t see them removing all the named resin either.
My Zagstrukk was fine when I got him all those years back. I havent really had any problems with finecast, Ive had more problems with Forgeworld Resin if anything. I think you just got an extra bad cast.
My zagstruk model was fine, probably one of the cleaner finecasts ive gotten.
Snikrot is pretty good too, he had a hole in his bicep somehow but thats easily fixed...the detailed parts was fine.
I dont own Badrukk since i think his model looks kinda goofy.
The only miniature I have ever purchased in finecast is the Weirdboy. It was cast cleanly, but it had a lot of supports and flash that had to be cleaned up. It came out looking very crisp, but it took quite a bit of time to prepare.
Bonde wrote: The only miniature I have ever purchased in finecast is the Weirdboy. It was cast cleanly, but it had a lot of supports and flash that had to be cleaned up. It came out looking very crisp, but it took quite a bit of time to prepare.
My Thrakka had to be replaced four times till I had one that was damaged little enough to make fixing without modelling skills possible.
I went through a total of 7 KFF big meks and didn't find a single one which wasn't completely destroyed by bubbles. The model was completely incompatible with finecast, which is the reason why it's not longer available.
My weirdboy was so bent out of shape that it can't be properly assembled. It was the final straw that made me never buy a single finecast model ever again.
I now have metal versions of almost all ork finecast units except kommandoz. I just use boyz with a specific paintjob for them.
I have both metal and fine cast kommandos... my old ghaz had some minor chunks I needed to remove w a blade but nothing to bad... badrukk and snikrot were almost completely fine minus a little flash and mould line removals....
That zagstrukk though my god his little remote trigger hand was just a solid block of resin I had to chisel and sculpt a completely new hand.
Anyway I wouldn’t be surprised to see a new codex minus a few old models.. I honestly think defffkoptas are end of life.
Anyone have any luck running Ghaz in a Deffskullz infantry list? This allows you to go heavy on elites with only 60 or less boyz.
Pros
1) less squishy boyz w/ 6++. Yes, I know they can get a 5++ with a KFF but that confines them to a 18" circle on the board. As soon as you da jump or simply move out of the bubble I find that they die to a stiff breeze before they ever get to use the benefits of skarboyz. Also, the 6++ works in melee.
2) obsec for all infantry - this is huge for MANz, nobz, kommandos, characters not named ghaz. I find that this alone gets me at least 10-15 points per game, and denies my opponent the same. that's a 20-30 point swing.
3) rerolls for Power Klaws, Killsaws, KMB dreads. Especially the reroll damage is very helpful.
4) Ghaz's great waaagh still works - advance & charge and +1A
Cons
1) Ghaz doesn't receive kultur benefits - I find that he doesn't need it
2) Ghaz' rerolling 1s aura turns off - At least for me this is only useful in certain situations. I find that I usually run ghaz away from the boyz to hide behind obstructing terrain as much as possible. As such, his auras rarely get used. Am I just doing this wrong?
3) No skarboyz - I find skarboyz is overkill for most things if the boyz can get in combat, and wasted if they die before they get there. Regular boyz with warpath can kill damn near anything and are more likely to survive the carnage.
Hey guys. tomorrow ill have my first battle versus a Thousand Sons army. Im not fully sure about what to expect except a lot of psykers and mortal wounds.
What kind of Ork army composition would be best against them? Something tells me that Ghazzy would be a terrible choice.
Im thinking maybe something fast to cross the distance for a Turn 1 charge with Evil Sunz? Or maybe just the good ol' deathskulls with a balanced CC and ranged force. Or maybe a Ghazzy storm of 90 boyz really isnt too bad after all.
Something without a psyker maybe, so as to get my secondary points from Abhore the witch.
Pure Thousand sons just aren't very good, so I wouldn't be too worried. Not bringing a psyker for "abhor the witch" is iffy IMO. Would you have brought that psyker otherwise? If yes, then we're in tailoring territory...
Generally speaking though, multi-damage weapons are good since it negates their "All is dust" rule. They're generally speaking quite slow but have, depending on cult, a spell similar to "da jump" so screening is important. Their termies also shred T7 or less units but thousand sons always struggle with T8. They have tough obsec units but I'd just grind them down with flanking warfare. Bring a couple of boyz/grots squads so you can eat their potential smite spam (even though it's less of an issue then grey knights and just not as scary in 9th in general).
Anyone have any luck running Ghaz in a Deffskullz infantry list? This allows you to go heavy on elites with only 60 or less boyz.
Pros
1) less squishy boyz w/ 6++. Yes, I know they can get a 5++ with a KFF but that confines them to a 18" circle on the board. As soon as you da jump or simply move out of the bubble I find that they die to a stiff breeze before they ever get to use the benefits of skarboyz. Also, the 6++ works in melee.
2) obsec for all infantry - this is huge for MANz, nobz, kommandos, characters not named ghaz. I find that this alone gets me at least 10-15 points per game, and denies my opponent the same. that's a 20-30 point swing.
3) rerolls for Power Klaws, Killsaws, KMB dreads. Especially the reroll damage is very helpful.
4) Ghaz's great waaagh still works - advance & charge and +1A
Cons
1) Ghaz doesn't receive kultur benefits - I find that he doesn't need it
2) Ghaz' rerolling 1s aura turns off - At least for me this is only useful in certain situations. I find that I usually run ghaz away from the boyz to hide behind obstructing terrain as much as possible. As such, his auras rarely get used. Am I just doing this wrong?
3) No skarboyz - I find skarboyz is overkill for most things if the boyz can get in combat, and wasted if they die before they get there. Regular boyz with warpath can kill damn near anything and are more likely to survive the carnage.
If you're not running goff, why bother with Thrakka? A warboss on warbike does very similar damage to Thrakka without trait, so just save yourself the points.
That said, in my opinion skarboyz is what makes goff work, Thrakka is just the icing on the cake. Wounding marines on 3s is very much necessary to kill them reliably, and I've watched in disbelieve an entire mob of 30 ES bounce off a unit of deathshrouds who then turned around and murdered most of them.
PiñaColada wrote: Pure Thousand sons just aren't very good, so I wouldn't be too worried. Not bringing a psyker for "abhor the witch" is iffy IMO. Would you have brought that psyker otherwise? If yes, then we're in tailoring territory...
Generally speaking though, multi-damage weapons are good since it negates their "All is dust" rule. They're generally speaking quite slow but have, depending on cult, a spell similar to "da jump" so screening is important. Their termies also shred T7 or less units but thousand sons always struggle with T8. They have tough obsec units but I'd just grind them down with flanking warfare. Bring a couple of boyz/grots squads so you can eat their potential smite spam (even though it's less of an issue then grey knights and just not as scary in 9th in general).
well. Yes i would bring a psyker otherwise. We both often try and bring armies that brings the other person down. And since we both know what we will face (in fact he has the "high ground" since he has fought me a thousand times and ive never fought a TS army in my life) its not an issue. We both play to the knowledge of the army we face, we just dont know each others composition. we've fought a ton of times Orks versus his custodian army. It wouldnt be wrong of me to play towards the knowledge of him using that exact army, in fact, im at a massive disadvantage already. And even then i cant do it that well given ive never fought them.
He will most likely bring lots of anti infantry too because he knows i play orks.
But since Abhore the Witch was nerfed, i wonder if its still worth taking for me. To be fair, im not used to playing without a psyker. and if i go evil sunz, id really want that Da Jump and Visions. Hopefully id stay out of the what.. 24 inch deny range.
but then again going Evil Sunz would leave little left to screen my backline as most my army would be charged across the field in trukks and battlewagons. So it will either be:
a turn 1 charge Evil Sunz army to get the advantage in CC combat which he shouldnt be super good at (and maybe ill try 5 rokkit deffkoptas for the first time)
Or try out a cheeky bad moon army with a focus on Tankbustas coming in from the side or deepstriking in for double shooting, and hoping he brings vehicles, coupled with some backline shooting from kannon wagons etc
or a death skulls all rounder army and bring out my 1 shokkjump and scrapjet and some other stuff which i dont know what would be yet. heavy infantry maybe, maybe not.
I wonder if the Zaggzapp would be good in this matchup. ive legit never used it but you guys speak highly of it.
Abhor the witch is still basically a guaranteed 15VP unless he's playing some tzaangor skew build so it's extremely potent. I'd say it's easily worth the trade off so assuming he'd be okay with some small amount of list tailoring then it's a good move.
TS in general have a bunch of different spells and strats to really buff up their units, usually they're poured on a terminator squad or a larger rubricae squad so just make sure that you give yourself options and aren't forced to shoot into that super-buffed unit. Considering every single bolter in the army (sans a few vehicle ones) are AP-2 deffskulls are a good choice. They also have a strat where you can double shoot the bolters on a rubricae or terminator unit (only if the unit stood still that movement phase) don't give a terminator squad a good target for that, because all those AP-2 combibolters double shooting with VotLW is a death knell to anything T7 or less.
The army is also, almost ironically, weak to any sort of mortal wounds that aren't caused by psychic powers since all their units are expensive and I don't think there's a single FnP in the entire army. They do however have multiple ways of healing models and even returning slayed ones, so it's better to wipe units entirely rather than whittle a few of them down. But I honestly think Orks are a fair bit stronger than TS and the matchup isn't too difficult. Of course, if he's used to playing your Orks and you don't know what you're up against then it might be tough.
PiñaColada wrote: Abhor the witch is still basically a guaranteed 15VP unless he's playing some tzaangor skew build so it's extremely potent. I'd say it's easily worth the trade off so assuming he'd be okay with some small amount of list tailoring then it's a good move.
TS in general have a bunch of different spells and strats to really buff up their units, usually they're poured on a terminator squad or a larger rubricae squad so just make sure that you give yourself options and aren't forced to shoot into that super-buffed unit. Considering every single bolter in the army (sans a few vehicle ones) are AP-2 deffskulls are a good choice. They also have a strat where you can double shoot the bolters on a rubricae or terminator unit (only if the unit stood still that movement phase) don't give a terminator squad a good target for that, because all those AP-2 combibolters double shooting with VotLW is a death knell to anything T7 or less.
The army is also, almost ironically, weak to any sort of mortal wounds that aren't caused by psychic powers since all their units are expensive and I don't think there's a single FnP in the entire army. They do however have multiple ways of healing models and even returning slayed ones, so it's better to wipe units entirely rather than whittle a few of them down. But I honestly think Orks are a fair bit stronger than TS and the matchup isn't too difficult. Of course, if he's used to playing your Orks and you don't know what you're up against then it might be tough.
i see. well given the fact ive never fought TS in my life i will probably lose and thats fine. But yes we tailor build all the time. we often tailor to the knowledge of the army the other is playing. Then if one person is winning too much we tend to let one army and composition be known, where as the other can tailor to that knowledge. In this case im on the receiving end of walking blindly in to a match versus an army ive never fought. My moral compas isnt pointing the wrong way here! I also lost the last 2 times versus his custodian army.
I have one last question though, do they have any ways of giving me a -1 to hit in the shooting phase? Just if you knew out the back of your head. Im used to play against his custodian vexilla that gives that annoying -1 to hit and that really hampers my shooting game. So If he can do that still for TS im probably more inclined to go for a mainly CC army or at least balanced, rather than shooting heavy.
i wonder if his army would be weak against a Squiggoth or gargantuan Squiggoth. I do have a gargantuan Squiggoth, and while the unit in general isnt great, its a beautiful model. and it does deal good D6MW on charges
Yes, they have a psychic power that targets one of their own units and makes it -1 to hit (Glamour of Tzeentch), that one and "Weaver of Fates" which improves a units' invulnerable save are the two powers you'll see every turn, irrespective of TS army build. They dont have some ubiquitous -1 to hit so you can always choose another target. The only really reactive buff they have is the "indomitable foes" strat which improves a terminator or rubricae invulnarable save when targeted by an attack by 1 unit the end of the phase.
Generally speaking the army is weak in melee, so beat them up there, but the terminators are pretty decent. I'd just avoid them if possible and try to wipe out everything else. They still have the old marine number of wounds so the termies aren't 3W yet and you want to bring damage 2 weapons to deny his "all is dust" anyways. So just spam D2 weaponry and you'll be fine. Anything damage1 and no ap will do absolutely nothing all game
PiñaColada wrote: Yes, they have a psychic power that targets one of their own units and makes it -1 to hit (Glamour of Tzeentch), that one and "Weaver of Fates" which improves a units' invulnerable save are the two powers you'll see every turn, irrespective of TS army build. They dont have some ubiquitous -1 to hit so you can always choose another target. The only really reactive buff they have is the "indomitable foes" strat which improves a terminator or rubricae invulnarable save when targeted by an attack by 1 unit the end of the phase.
Generally speaking the army is weak in melee, so beat them up there, but the terminators are pretty decent. I'd just avoid them if possible and try to wipe out everything else. They still have the old marine number of wounds so the termies aren't 3W yet and you want to bring damage 2 weapons to deny his "all is dust" anyways. So just spam D2 weaponry and you'll be fine. Anything damage1 and no ap will do absolutely nothing all game
Thanks buddy. But at least its not an aura of -1 to hit like the Vexilla constantly do. That'll come in handy, perhabs.
Or maybe ill just evil sunz charge turn 1 them. Im not sure. Im a bit afraid of magnus and terminators just teleporting in turn 2 in my backlines if i charge forward though. So i would need to hold something back
If you're not running goff, why bother with Thrakka? A warboss on warbike does very similar damage to Thrakka without trait, so just save yourself the points.
That said, in my opinion skarboyz is what makes goff work, Thrakka is just the icing on the cake. Wounding marines on 3s is very much necessary to kill them reliably, and I've watched in disbelieve an entire mob of 30 ES bounce off a unit of deathshrouds who then turned around and murdered most of them.
100% agree with Jid here. If you aren't running Goffz you are getting more bang for your buck with a standard warboss on a bike with the relic klaw and the upgrade strat. And Orkz are just terrible at CC right now against Space Marines. if you magically get all 30 boyz in range of a 10 man squad of tacs without losing a single model you get 120 attacks, 80 hits, 40 wounds which works out to....13 wounds or 6 and a half dead tac Marines. last edition that same unit of 30 was slaughtering the entire unit with overkill. If you don't upgrade the boyz somehow you are going to bounce off targets like Jid mentioned.
Beardedragon wrote: This is a bit of a rules question but im a bit curious, do Bomb squigs get a secondary hit roll from Dakka Dakka? (related to my battle tomorrow).
I would say they do.
Yup. Nothing stops them from proccing it. I like to imagine that they explode with the exact right timing for all the bombs it has.
Anyone have any luck running Ghaz in a Deffskullz infantry list? This allows you to go heavy on elites with only 60 or less boyz.
Pros
1) less squishy boyz w/ 6++. Yes, I know they can get a 5++ with a KFF but that confines them to a 18" circle on the board. As soon as you da jump or simply move out of the bubble I find that they die to a stiff breeze before they ever get to use the benefits of skarboyz. Also, the 6++ works in melee.
2) obsec for all infantry - this is huge for MANz, nobz, kommandos, characters not named ghaz. I find that this alone gets me at least 10-15 points per game, and denies my opponent the same. that's a 20-30 point swing.
3) rerolls for Power Klaws, Killsaws, KMB dreads. Especially the reroll damage is very helpful.
4) Ghaz's great waaagh still works - advance & charge and +1A
Cons
1) Ghaz doesn't receive kultur benefits - I find that he doesn't need it
2) Ghaz' rerolling 1s aura turns off - At least for me this is only useful in certain situations. I find that I usually run ghaz away from the boyz to hide behind obstructing terrain as much as possible. As such, his auras rarely get used. Am I just doing this wrong?
3) No skarboyz - I find skarboyz is overkill for most things if the boyz can get in combat, and wasted if they die before they get there. Regular boyz with warpath can kill damn near anything and are more likely to survive the carnage.
If you're not running goff, why bother with Thrakka? A warboss on warbike does very similar damage to Thrakka without trait, so just save yourself the points.
That said, in my opinion skarboyz is what makes goff work, Thrakka is just the icing on the cake. Wounding marines on 3s is very much necessary to kill them reliably, and I've watched in disbelieve an entire mob of 30 ES bounce off a unit of deathshrouds who then turned around and murdered most of them.
I completely agree on Skarboyz. When I run goffs, that's an autotake and i'm also running thrakka. I ran a goffs list against blood angels last weekend and at the end of round 1, 60 boyz were dead with no chance to green tide. That wouldn't have happened if I was running deffskullz. Not having a save in melee against space marines is brutal. Almost everything has at least AP -1, and some chapters can even make sure they fight first. Even without the fight first, counter-offensive is something I see used often to soften the blow from a unit of boyz.
This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
He brought 10 terminators that teleported around, and 3 Defilers, + 2 daemon princes and magnus. and some minor rubrics + a hellbrute. I brought 2 bonebreakers with MANZ in them, 50 boyz, 2x 5 kommandos and 15 tankbustas that i deepstriked. and 5 rokkit deffkoptas with a warboss on warbike. Sadly i lost the battle somewhat hard. He got turn one, which made a massive difference. I think i had a somewhat chance of winning if i went first, but i didnt. An army shouldnt fall or rise only based on whether one goes first or not, so my deployment was either bad, or my composition was bad.
In hindsight maybe i should have focused more on staying out of sight from his defilers with my bonebreakers, which i didnt. I started at the front line in the straightest and fastest line to his enemy line, for that T1 charge. If i was hidden, i could probably not do a turn 1 charge, which i wanted, but it left me open for being demolished by the defilers, staying far behind. The stage map also didnt help me. But i will use the army again against him i think, and try and play differently and better next time maybe.
On a positive notice his terminators, while being dangerous, didnt do AS much damage as i feared versus units in a KFF. even boyz.
Maybe ill try a more shooty list instead. i just dont have a lot of shooty units though
zoltan88 wrote: This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.
Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?
zoltan88 wrote: This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.
Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I do think orkz aren't in a great place right now, mostly due to the key ork units being degraded over time. (Power creep). But orkz are doing fine by being counter meta (feels like this is the case every edition), showing up to a tournament with 120 boyz in a meta that favors elite multi wound good save infantry is always fun.
You asked a question, the answer was just not what you wanted to hear. If you are running deffskullz than take a normal warboss as opposed to a REALLY expensive beatstick in ghaz. Why? because you will get more bang for your buck with the cheaper warboss, if its Goffz, then go for ghaz. If you are running a green tide style list at a tournament I'd recommend Goffz just because as I've previously mentioned, ork boyz are no longer that good at killing Speese Mehreens. Doubling the Space Marines wounds, giving them extra CC attacks, giving them a plethora of other buffs which make them deadlier at range, just means you won't do as well. 10 Deff skullz in CC get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 3.33 dmg. (add in the extra 1 hit/wound roll if you really want). 10 Goffz with the skarboyz upgrade get 30 attacks (exploding 6s) = 23.3 hitz, 15.5 wounds and 5 dmg. Keep in mind, i'm still of the opinion that is ridiculously low dmg output, but the difference is almost 1 full dead Space Marine.
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I do think orkz aren't in a great place right now, mostly due to the key ork units being degraded over time. (Power creep). But orkz are doing fine by being counter meta (feels like this is the case every edition), showing up to a tournament with 120 boyz in a meta that favors elite multi wound good save infantry is always fun.
You asked a question, the answer was just not what you wanted to hear. If you are running deffskullz than take a normal warboss as opposed to a REALLY expensive beatstick in ghaz. Why? because you will get more bang for your buck with the cheaper warboss, if its Goffz, then go for ghaz. If you are running a green tide style list at a tournament I'd recommend Goffz just because as I've previously mentioned, ork boyz are no longer that good at killing Speese Mehreens. Doubling the Space Marines wounds, giving them extra CC attacks, giving them a plethora of other buffs which make them deadlier at range, just means you won't do as well. 10 Deff skullz in CC get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 3.33 dmg. (add in the extra 1 hit/wound roll if you really want). 10 Goffz with the skarboyz upgrade get 30 attacks (exploding 6s) = 23.3 hitz, 15.5 wounds and 5 dmg.
Keep in mind, i'm still of the opinion that is ridiculously low dmg output, but the difference is almost 1 full dead Space Marine.
The problem here is all you are focusing on is the scenario in which the same number of models are attacking the same unit. This would almost never be the case unless you are considering the scenario in which you da jump 30 boyz into enemy lines turn 1.
Let's look at the much more likely scenario in which the space marines get the jump on the boyz due to higher mobility of a smaller unit with higher movement statistic. For the sake of argument, let's assume 10 assault intercessors moved to w/in charge range. The boyz take a barrage of fire from nearby units that kills 12 goff boyz (10 deffskullz boyz). Not including any faction upgrades, the assault intercessors charge w/ 31 attacks, hitting 20.67, wounding 10.33. Kills 10 goffs boys (8-9 deffskullz boyz. Let's assume 9 for argument's sake). So now the goffs boyz are down to 8 boyz, whereas the deffskullz boyz are down to 11. Now the boyz fight back. 8 goffs boyz (assuming 1 is nob) produce 25+4 attacks w/ exploding 6s, hitting 19.33, wounding 12.89, 4.30 wounds go through (2 marines). 11 deffskullz boyz (let's do s4 boyz first) produce 30 attacks, hitting 20, wounding 10, 3.33 wounds go through. The s5 nob produces 4 attacks +1 w/ reroll, hitting 3.33, wounding 2.33 w/ reroll, resulting in 0.56 wounds. 3.33 + 0.56 = 3.89. The difference is 0.41 wounds. Now assuming the nob has a power klaw, he is going to perform much better w/ deffskullz rerolls, especially when rerolling damage means 1 wound that goes through likely = 1 dead marine.
You are giving up obsec elite infantry and HQs, rerolls, and an army wide 6++ for 0.41 extra wounds. Everyone here is stuck in 8th edition. The story of 9th is obsec, durability, and mobility.
Additionally, the invuln save could be the difference between dropping to 19 models vs 20 which is 23 attacks, or having to use auto-pass morale strat to green tide (5CP vs 3CP), or the squad being wiped off the map completely.
zoltan88 wrote: This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
Sorry, but my answers are from actual experience and I genuinely tried to help you. No more. The one and only thing wrong here is your attitude.
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I do think orkz aren't in a great place right now, mostly due to the key ork units being degraded over time. (Power creep). But orkz are doing fine by being counter meta (feels like this is the case every edition), showing up to a tournament with 120 boyz in a meta that favors elite multi wound good save infantry is always fun.
You asked a question, the answer was just not what you wanted to hear. If you are running deffskullz than take a normal warboss as opposed to a REALLY expensive beatstick in ghaz. Why? because you will get more bang for your buck with the cheaper warboss, if its Goffz, then go for ghaz. If you are running a green tide style list at a tournament I'd recommend Goffz just because as I've previously mentioned, ork boyz are no longer that good at killing Speese Mehreens. Doubling the Space Marines wounds, giving them extra CC attacks, giving them a plethora of other buffs which make them deadlier at range, just means you won't do as well. 10 Deff skullz in CC get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 3.33 dmg. (add in the extra 1 hit/wound roll if you really want). 10 Goffz with the skarboyz upgrade get 30 attacks (exploding 6s) = 23.3 hitz, 15.5 wounds and 5 dmg.
Keep in mind, i'm still of the opinion that is ridiculously low dmg output, but the difference is almost 1 full dead Space Marine.
The problem here is all you are focusing on is the scenario in which the same number of models are attacking the same unit. This would almost never be the case unless you are considering the scenario in which you da jump 30 boyz into enemy lines turn 1.
Let's look at the much more likely scenario in which the space marines get the jump on the boyz due to higher mobility of a smaller unit with higher movement statistic. For the sake of argument, let's assume 10 assault intercessors moved to w/in charge range. The boyz take a barrage of fire from nearby units that kills 12 goff boyz (10 deffskullz boyz). Not including any faction upgrades, the assault intercessors charge w/ 31 attacks, hitting 20.67, wounding 10.33. Kills 10 goffs boys (8-9 deffskullz boyz. Let's assume 9 for argument's sake). So now the goffs boyz are down to 8 boyz, whereas the deffskullz boyz are down to 11. Now the boyz fight back. 8 goffs boyz (assuming 1 is nob) produce 25+4 attacks w/ exploding 6s, hitting 19.33, wounding 12.89, 4.30 wounds go through (2 marines). 11 deffskullz boyz (let's do s4 boyz first) produce 30 attacks, hitting 20, wounding 10, 3.33 wounds go through. The s5 nob produces 4 attacks +1 w/ reroll, hitting 3.33, wounding 2.33 w/ reroll, resulting in 0.56 wounds. 3.33 + 0.56 = 3.89. The difference is 0.41 wounds. Now assuming the nob has a power klaw, he is going to perform much better w/ deffskullz rerolls, especially when rerolling damage means 1 wound that goes through likely = 1 dead marine.
You are giving up obsec elite infantry and HQs, rerolls, and an army wide 6++ for 0.41 extra wounds. Everyone here is stuck in 8th edition. The story of 9th is obsec, durability, and mobility.
Additionally, the invuln save could be the difference between dropping to 19 models vs 20 which is 23 attacks, or having to use auto-pass morale strat to green tide (5CP vs 3CP), or the squad being wiped off the map completely.
No offense, but you're coming off as very entitled with the way you're complaining about how no one is basically giving you the feedback that your confirmation bias is looking for. Our book has been out for a while now and even within the context of 9th edition we've had enough tournaments and data to see what works. Not only is your example skewed towards trying to make the deffskullz look better in CC (i.e. taking a PK for the Nob when realistically everyone takes killsaws instead of PK given that it's pretty much superior in almost any situation barring Death Guard units). You also conveniently take out any of the mainstay chapter tactics that you would realistically face while keeping the stats for Deffskullz for the Ork boy unit. You also don't factor that any marine unit engaging our boyz will almost always have some sort of reroll support, especially in the context of them getting the drop on our unit. The 6+ invulnerable really isn't that much of a deciding factor in keeping boyz blobs alive, otherwise the KFF would be spammed much more than it is. At best it saves a few boyz that will either be wiped out anyways or will be even further reduced by morale. That's why Ghaz works best with Goffs, since it really is a mixture of the Goff trait, the reroll one's and the Skarboyz buffs that tip a boyz squad into an actual consistently scary melee threat even in reduced numbers compared to regular boyz from other Klanz. You also fail to factor that you can't heal Ghazzy with a Painboy in a Deffskullz detachment, which is another reason behind being mono-Goffs.
If you're so determined to show off us old grognards off, go and try it! But there's a reason why competitively there's usually no Ghazzy involved in most Deffskull heavy lists in tournaments.
zoltan88 wrote: This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own. If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek. If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.
Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I have made a list for deathskulls with Ghaz in it, but sadly i havent tried it yet. Im also not the most skilled nor the guy with the most models to make the best combinations of units. So sadly i have no knowledge of having Ghaz in anything BUT a Goff detatchment.
But ive seen Ghaz in different klans on youtube battle repports. I think i once saw him in a bad moonz group as well, holding the line in a chokepoint while the backline was shooting.
But i do think Ghaz in a deathskulls army could work. and i mean think, because i havent tried it. The idea of deathskulls infantry army with MANz and blobs of boyz or maybe even Nobz, which would be more duable due to the 6++ and then having Ghaz as well, might be an interesting way of going about it. While i do think the 6++ is great, im more about that reroll and Obsec from deathskulls though. I feel like thats where its at, for things like maybe buggies and such.
if im not mistaken, i think that Dangliboy ork youtuber showed a winning tournement list with a ghaz in a deathskulls company. But im not 100% sure if my memory is right on that point.
Looks like they are going to just relabel a whole bunch of AoS stuff "snakebites" and drop it on us.
These models don't exist in AoS.
Vineheart01 wrote:Not sure how i feel about them.
We already have 3 "biker" type units, though one is a vehicle atm for some reason and naturally this would be cavalry but similar roles regardless.
In addition....that looks like a fantasy ork with a 40k melee weapon. Which feels jarring.
addnid wrote: Triple kill tank would probably work very well against TS
If you're using the bursta variant maybe? But then the gun feels fairly over kill for blasting apart the (currently one wound) troops. Though it fairs better against the termies.
The dakka variant on the other hand loses some of it's punch with the all is dust rule. Would you even be able to clear out a unit a turn? Don't get me wrong I adore killtanks, but against TS they may struggle.
He brought 10 terminators that teleported around, and 3 Defilers, + 2 daemon princes and magnus. and some minor rubrics + a hellbrute. I brought 2 bonebreakers with MANZ in them, 50 boyz, 2x 5 kommandos and 15 tankbustas that i deepstriked. and 5 rokkit deffkoptas with a warboss on warbike. Sadly i lost the battle somewhat hard. He got turn one, which made a massive difference. I think i had a somewhat chance of winning if i went first, but i didnt. An army shouldnt fall or rise only based on whether one goes first or not, so my deployment was either bad, or my composition was bad.
In hindsight maybe i should have focused more on staying out of sight from his defilers with my bonebreakers, which i didnt. I started at the front line in the straightest and fastest line to his enemy line, for that T1 charge. If i was hidden, i could probably not do a turn 1 charge, which i wanted, but it left me open for being demolished by the defilers, staying far behind. The stage map also didnt help me. But i will use the army again against him i think, and try and play differently and better next time maybe.
On a positive notice his terminators, while being dangerous, didnt do AS much damage as i feared versus units in a KFF. even boyz.
Maybe ill try a more shooty list instead. i just dont have a lot of shooty units though
It looks like you fell into the typical (and saddening) pitfall of trying to run a combined arms style force as Orks. You simply dont have enough threat overload of either type of unit so your giving the enemy peak efficiency for all his types of guns. You either run all vehicles or all infantry (with a smattering of Trukks if you want to use MANZ), not a mix of either. High toughness doesnt really matter when it comes to fighting Thousand Sons, especially with Magnus in the list. MWs just bypass T8. From the looks of your list you tried to do a bit of everything, but that means you dont do anything well. You kind of want to make supremacy units that do their job well and dont really trade to do it. MANZ are great at that, hordes of Boyz/Buggies too but your list just feels too divided. 50 Boyz literally means nothing in this edition, the Scarab Occult would probably kill 25-30 in 1 turn.
Hopefully the new Codex will fix this issue for Orks, but right now you need to be more focused in your list building. Thousand Sons arent really a tough match up for Orks in either build whether thats greentide or speed freaks, the +1 save vs damage 1 can be a hard nut to crack though if your army doesnt really have the tools. Another thing about 9th edition, you dont have to charge turn 1. Conserve your units and commit them when the time is right to earn/deny victory points. Dont just kill things for the sake of killing things. Might sound unorky to be restrained and patient but thats something you eventually learn. Most people expect Ork players to be over the top and get tunnel vision, that might be true for the more casual Ork player but in competitive play you just need to slow things down. I wouldnt have thrown 2 Bonebreakas up turn 1, you exposed them and they died/failed at what you wanted them to do.
These are just a few bits of advice! How I play might not work for you but I have a pretty good track record with my Orks even though I play my Admech more nowadays (Won a fair few events and tournies in my day! )
Anyone have any luck running Ghaz in a Deffskullz infantry list? This allows you to go heavy on elites with only 60 or less boyz.
Pros
1) less squishy boyz w/ 6++. Yes, I know they can get a 5++ with a KFF but that confines them to a 18" circle on the board. As soon as you da jump or simply move out of the bubble I find that they die to a stiff breeze before they ever get to use the benefits of skarboyz. Also, the 6++ works in melee.
2) obsec for all infantry - this is huge for MANz, nobz, kommandos, characters not named ghaz. I find that this alone gets me at least 10-15 points per game, and denies my opponent the same. that's a 20-30 point swing.
3) rerolls for Power Klaws, Killsaws, KMB dreads. Especially the reroll damage is very helpful.
4) Ghaz's great waaagh still works - advance & charge and +1A
Cons
1) Ghaz doesn't receive kultur benefits - I find that he doesn't need it
2) Ghaz' rerolling 1s aura turns off - At least for me this is only useful in certain situations. I find that I usually run ghaz away from the boyz to hide behind obstructing terrain as much as possible. As such, his auras rarely get used. Am I just doing this wrong?
3) No skarboyz - I find skarboyz is overkill for most things if the boyz can get in combat, and wasted if they die before they get there. Regular boyz with warpath can kill damn near anything and are more likely to survive the carnage.
If you're not running goff, why bother with Thrakka? A warboss on warbike does very similar damage to Thrakka without trait, so just save yourself the points.
That said, in my opinion skarboyz is what makes goff work, Thrakka is just the icing on the cake. Wounding marines on 3s is very much necessary to kill them reliably, and I've watched in disbelieve an entire mob of 30 ES bounce off a unit of deathshrouds who then turned around and murdered most of them.
I completely agree on Skarboyz. When I run goffs, that's an autotake and i'm also running thrakka. I ran a goffs list against blood angels last weekend and at the end of round 1, 60 boyz were dead with no chance to green tide. That wouldn't have happened if I was running deffskullz. Not having a save in melee against space marines is brutal. Almost everything has at least AP -1, and some chapters can even make sure they fight first. Even without the fight first, counter-offensive is something I see used often to soften the blow from a unit of boyz.
This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
From my personal experience Ive never really valued the 6++ from Deathskulls. Yeah it might save a few Boyz here and there but the power behind Deathskulls is Obsec on all the infantry units and the rerolls they get that boost the accuracy and lethality of our units (mainly Boss Nobz and Rokkits/KMB). Whilst the 6++ is better than nothing, I havent really missed it when playing Evil Sunz, or when I used to play Goffs. No matter what Clan you play however, your gonna loose handfuls of Boyz, thats sadly the reality of 9th edition. Everything has more attacks, more strength, AP, Damage and synergies. Those same Blood Angels would of killed lets say 50 Deathskull Boyz, yeah you get to greentide them maybe but you havent really got any good odds to make the change from doing it, and youll probably still lose them the next turn again.
Deathskulls just dont feel like the best Clan to horde it out. They arent noticably tougher (if you have a KFF and Painboy) until they get into melee and even then I wouldnt really say its noticable. They arent the quickest to get into krumping range and they arent the most choppy when they reach melee. They are just great at holding objectives which is an amazing trait to have in 9th. As Jid has stated, I dont think you need Ghaz in this army, a standard Warboss of either kind is suitable for the job.
He brought 10 terminators that teleported around, and 3 Defilers, + 2 daemon princes and magnus. and some minor rubrics + a hellbrute. I brought 2 bonebreakers with MANZ in them, 50 boyz, 2x 5 kommandos and 15 tankbustas that i deepstriked. and 5 rokkit deffkoptas with a warboss on warbike. Sadly i lost the battle somewhat hard. He got turn one, which made a massive difference. I think i had a somewhat chance of winning if i went first, but i didnt. An army shouldnt fall or rise only based on whether one goes first or not, so my deployment was either bad, or my composition was bad.
In hindsight maybe i should have focused more on staying out of sight from his defilers with my bonebreakers, which i didnt. I started at the front line in the straightest and fastest line to his enemy line, for that T1 charge. If i was hidden, i could probably not do a turn 1 charge, which i wanted, but it left me open for being demolished by the defilers, staying far behind. The stage map also didnt help me. But i will use the army again against him i think, and try and play differently and better next time maybe.
On a positive notice his terminators, while being dangerous, didnt do AS much damage as i feared versus units in a KFF. even boyz.
Maybe ill try a more shooty list instead. i just dont have a lot of shooty units though
It looks like you fell into the typical (and saddening) pitfall of trying to run a combined arms style force as Orks. You simply dont have enough threat overload of either type of unit so your giving the enemy peak efficiency for all his types of guns. You either run all vehicles or all infantry (with a smattering of Trukks if you want to use MANZ), not a mix of either. High toughness doesnt really matter when it comes to fighting Thousand Sons, especially with Magnus in the list. MWs just bypass T8. From the looks of your list you tried to do a bit of everything, but that means you dont do anything well. You kind of want to make supremacy units that do their job well and dont really trade to do it. MANZ are great at that, hordes of Boyz/Buggies too but your list just feels too divided. 50 Boyz literally means nothing in this edition, the Scarab Occult would probably kill 25-30 in 1 turn.
Hopefully the new Codex will fix this issue for Orks, but right now you need to be more focused in your list building. Thousand Sons arent really a tough match up for Orks in either build whether thats greentide or speed freaks, the +1 save vs damage 1 can be a hard nut to crack though if your army doesnt really have the tools. Another thing about 9th edition, you dont have to charge turn 1. Conserve your units and commit them when the time is right to earn/deny victory points. Dont just kill things for the sake of killing things. Might sound unorky to be restrained and patient but thats something you eventually learn. Most people expect Ork players to be over the top and get tunnel vision, that might be true for the more casual Ork player but in competitive play you just need to slow things down. I wouldnt have thrown 2 Bonebreakas up turn 1, you exposed them and they died/failed at what you wanted them to do.
These are just a few bits of advice! How I play might not work for you but I have a pretty good track record with my Orks even though I play my Admech more nowadays (Won a fair few events and tournies in my day! )
advice is advice and i take it either way (that sounded quite kinky actually). All advice is welcome.
But the thing about the T1 charge was, that his rubric marines, which blocked me, were right in front of the defilers. My idea was to charge in to the rubric marines, kill them, and consolidate in to the defilers. Yes eventually the bonebreakers would die, but my MANZ would spill out and cause havoc near his backline. One notable thing i didnt mention was that Magnus was in deepstrike so i had screened out my backline, and i didnt have to worry about him the first turn.
Sadly the whole charge and consolidate never happened because, well i didnt go first, nor was i hidden. The first Bonebreaker died turn 1 shooting, the other was down to less than a quarter hp.
But to be fair, my army did considerably worse than average in terms of die rolls. I had more dakka on my 5 deffkoptas and got only 1 extra hit roll, and i only managed to actually get 3 hit rolls total out of my 10 rokkits + more dakka. Only 1 wounded from there and he saved it. Maybe i was overconfident because i had never used deffkoptas nor tankbustas before, but i planned to have the first defiler die to my more dakka Deffkopta barrage in turn 1, and then turn 2, deploy the tankbustas, and pop the last 2 defilers with a mix of bomb squigs and the tankbustas themselves also with more dakka. This did not, at all go according to plan. Even if it would go according to plan, i think maybe i was a bit greedy in expecting my 5 deffkoptas to reliably kill the first defiler even.
When we reached turn 2 and i deployed my tankbustas, a lot of my important units, like MANZ and bonebreakers were dead so i just tried to kill magnus and a daemon prince with my 15 tankbustas with more dakka and all 6 bomb squigs. I know they are not vehicles, and they are stupid choices to go for, but i had already more or less lost at this point. Needless to say all 6 bomb squigs managed to deal 5 damage total, and my 15 tankbustas were split between 5 for magnus and 10 for another daemon prince (stupid choice but i was just trying stuff by then as i had already lost). the last 5 tankbustas hitting Magnus did no wounds. I dont even recall that they hit.
the 10 other tankbustas managed to make 3 wounds go through on his daemon prince. So needless to say, i had some very terrible rolling, with my rokkits, with my saves, with everything really.
Im not saying thats why i lost, but i definitely rolled way below average, in fact, ive never rolled so many 1's in my life as i did during that match.
I think the biggest problem i have with your advice (which isnt really the advice but ill elaborate) is my own lack of units. Im not able to make a fully mech or buggy list because.. well i have 3 buggies total, 1 KBB, 1 dragsta, 1 scrapjet.
This is what i have total, and with these units, would you mind actually give me your thoughts about what you think i should field? Like, lets say you know you should face Thousand Sons, of what units i have, what would you field? Because i want to play better. maybe by seeing what you would put down, i can understand better what you mean about peak efficiency. The way i see it, i thought it could be fun to field a maximum of MANZ maybe but i just dont have the actual models. The same goes for a big buggy list or 18 Mek Gunz but alas, i dont have them.
Spoiler:
Zagstruk Badrukk with ammo runt Big Mek with KFF + repair runt Big Mek in Mega Armor with KFF Big Mek with Shokk attack gun Warboss with kombi scorcha Warboss with kombi rokkit Warboss on Warbike
Ghazzy boy, the destroyer of gods Makari 2x Weird Boy
100x ish boyz 20x Grots
8x Nobz with big choppa 1x Nob with powerklaw 5x Nobz with Double choppas 8x MANZ 10x Flash Gitz with 2 ammo runts 10x Burna boyz 10x Kommandoes 2x Painboy (not sure how i ended up with 2 tho)
5x Deffkoptas with rokkits (guess if i said twin big shoota my opponent wouldnt care) 4x Grot tanks 1x KBB 1x Scrapjet 1x Dragsta
2x CC Deff dreads with saws and klaws 6x Killa Kanz with rokkits 1x Gorkanaut 2x Battlewagon bodies with equipment to make 2 bonebreakers or 2 gunwagons. I also have + 1x single supa kannon for a kannowagon. 1x Big Trakk 1x Mek Gun (I plan to convert my 4 Grot tanks to Mek Gunz, and i got 3 more on the way by mail)
1x Trukk
1x Gargantuan Squiggoth
The point is, i dont think im fully able to actually field correct armies with what i have right now.
Do i go Goff infantry storm against him? why? str5 boyz are great but all is dust leaves them little to be desired, thats why i went with 50 boyz for simply meatshields. I thought about going infantry heavy Deathskulls with MANZ and Nobz, or maybe spice it up with a kannon wagon from the back and Zapzap.
Honestly when playing goff instead of the killa klaw a mega armor mek with the lukky stikk and kleverest boss leading a bunch of goff characters is pretty awesome.
Hmm, how would you run that? By nature it would be a bit of a slow burn army as you sort of need to footslog it to get everything in place at the right time. A bunch of bosses on foot, a megamek or two perhaps. Maybe toss in Ghaz to give them some extra attacks and re-rolls and of course a painboy to try and do some healing. Then fill the rest of the points with boyz or something for board control and look out sir?
cody.d. wrote: Hmm, how would you run that? By nature it would be a bit of a slow burn army as you sort of need to footslog it to get everything in place at the right time. A bunch of bosses on foot, a megamek or two perhaps. Maybe toss in Ghaz to give them some extra attacks and re-rolls and of course a painboy to try and do some healing. Then fill the rest of the points with boyz or something for board control and look out sir?
Yeah, I find that tough to work out, since in a Goffs list your heavy hitters is Ghaz, the Mega Mek with the Killa Klaw and that's usually it. I've seen some people use the Painboy as the Lucky Stikk wielder instead of the Mega-mek, but usually it's 3 HQ's max that make the most of it, since regular warboss damage output is fairly low without the buffs from relics or the Biggest Boss Upgrade.
Painboy relic klaw
Mega armor Mek w lukky stikk, kff, kleverest boss
Ghaz
Waagh banner
2x5 mega armor nobs w dual klaws
30 skarboys 28skar boys (both nobs w killsaws)11x Gretchin (or 10 and ammo runt)
2x5 kommandos
2x shokk jump dragstas (w kustom job to keep them out of LOS or under kff)
Wazbom jet w kff
Something like that you can play w amounts... such as drop wazbom for burna bomber and take 10 more boyz instead of 11 Gretchin. You are not giving your opponent much to work with for secondaries except kill your characters.
goff characters
Mega Mek- 5 atks, 1+ hit and reroll hit and reroll wounds
Painboy- 5 atks , 1+ hit reroll wounds, reroll hit of 1
Ghaz- 5 atks, 1+ hit, reroll hit of 1
Waagh banner- 4 atks, 1+ hit (+1 choppa hit), reroll hit of 1
Mega armor nobs- 5 atks each, 3+ hit, reroll hit of 1
The Waagh banner and Lucky stick feel a little redundant. Perhaps this style of list (until the codex drops) would work best as deffskulls. It allows the characters to be more independent and you can get some handy re-rolls for damage and wounds every now and then. 6 klaw bosses wandering around maybe each with their own bodyguard mob of boyz would give the same vibe of a bunch of characters each trying to show off and krump stuff.
Lukky stikk makes the bearer reroll hit and wounds and gives them plus any CHARACTERS +1 hit... essentially it turns any killsaw into a better killaklaw plus the aura is a bonus.
The banner nob is redundant on characters giving them multiple +1 to hits but it’s needed to make mega nobs reliable to hit... because 4+ to hit even w ghaz reroll 1 aura is bad. At least your characters won’t have to worry about neg to hit modifiers. You could remove banner nob for weirdboy but I don’t think it’s better.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah, do you really think, it is not waste of the relic to give Killa klaw on MA mek? He' s slow, stucked in back, T4 so die fast..
I'm thinking about this issue the whole week. MA mek withou killa klaw is useless. Right but does it even worth the points?
If you skip him to regular kff mek, you spare 60p and relic. That is prety huge.
I'm using MA Bigmek last few months and now I doubt about him...
His speed doesn't matter as much anymore, as you will always have something to charge by turn 2. Just have him advance towards an objective without any detours, he can then either help your army take it or even capture it all by himself. The 2+/5++/6W makes him rather annoying to deal with, so against many armies you can just have him sit on an objective without any protection. I have had multiple games now where the MA big mek alone scored 10-15 VP, because my opponents couldn't get rid of it with secondary shooting and didn't have a spare unit that could take him in a fight.
If I have some MANz deployed on the table, they will often act as his bodyguard until the reach the first objective, where he then remains behind while the MANz move on for more fighting.
As for the lukky stick - in my opinion the primary value of the killa klaw is 3 damage and everything else is just a nice to have. Da lukky stick does not solve any of the problems the PK/killsaw have unless you throw brutal but kunnin' on the same character, just to end up with the same thing as if you had just given the character da killa klaw.
I've occasionally thrown da lukky stick as my second relic on painboyz, which actually is quite nice since it enables them to assassinate characters or allows them hurt vehicles reliably. Since it also negates -1 to hit shenanigans vs Thrakka I guess it was worth the CP is spent on it. Definitely bring it if you feel like running Makari, the little bugger won't hit gak otherwise.
On weirdboyz any relic feels wasted - they just deal too much damage to themselves and die if ever attacked in melee.
addnid wrote: Triple kill tank would probably work very well against TS
If you're using the bursta variant maybe? But then the gun feels fairly over kill for blasting apart the (currently one wound) troops. Though it fairs better against the termies.
The dakka variant on the other hand loses some of it's punch with the all is dust rule. Would you even be able to clear out a unit a turn? Don't get me wrong I adore killtanks, but against TS they may struggle.
I run only the dakka variant (bad moons has so far been the best), the bursta is too expensive IMHO. Well I think you have so many shots and so many attacks in CC that for a 275 point unit, you will get your kill count of rubrics even if they get 3+ or 4+ save.
And anyway, you can just engage them in CC and score with the rest of the list. Bad moon dakka kill tanks, and a deathskull battalion with many obsec infantry units, with a splash of smasha gunz. Works quite well honestly.
If you don't require much kills from the kill tank shots you don't really need to have them as bad moons. As deathskulls with a waagh banner and the deathskull psychic for the extra AP, they can do a number in CC.
Also their CC profile is quite good to deal damage to magnus, as their low AP¨is not an issue.
So I stand by my statement, triple dakka kill tanks is a fine way to beat TS
Has anyone tried an army with 30 Mega Nobz before? for the giggles
Yes, it was really fun. Slow as hell (luckily, my opponent had no snipers to kill my weirdboy, so da jump was possible) and very heavy (only 10 of the nobs were the new plastics...), but my opponent (who fielded a rather fluff-oriented phobos centric marine force) had no means to get rid of so many 3 wound 2+ sv. I had a KFF, but it was actually not that necessary - there was just not so much Ap-4 or higher on the table, and with only grots as standard, you should definitely go Deathskull, so you already have a 6++...Doc and weirdboy seem more important.
Beardedragon wrote: Has anyone tried an army with 30 Mega Nobz before? for the giggles.
Maybe followed by 1 or 2 KFF big meks.
I tried a list recently using them as Deffskullz for the Obsec (I was hard debating between that and Tin Eads, but Deffskullz won out for me), where they were supported by a Warboss on Foot, a Weirdboy, and 2 battlewagons, a bonebreaka and a big trakk to help ferry them to where they needed to be. I faced against a Khorne Daemon/World Eater list and lost because he got first turn and managed to block me off from key charges by using rhinos as screens between the terrain. It was a casual game, so I should have brought more fire support to help crack transports/deal damage from afar. It was definitely fun though.
Beardedragon wrote: I mean 10 MANZ is like 400 points with kill saws. so 30 would be 1200 points just of CCMANZ.
I really wish they would make MANZ better at shooting like other terminators, so we actually had good all rounder infantry in the elite section.
I only have 8 MANZ though, so im far away from trying 30 of em
I remember that back in the old days of fandexes before we had mainline klan rules again in 8th ed, there were people who wrote the Bad Moonz fandex to have Meganobz with heavy and snazzy weapons attached to them rather than shootas and power klaws so that they could make the most of the Slow and Purposeful rule they used to have. They were basically our version of broadside battlesuits.
Honestly, whether or not their shooting is meaningful at all in our next codex will depend on what they do with shootas as a whole. Right now shootas are pretty meh in terms of mainline infantry weapons, especially on an Ork BS platform. Depending on how they buff big shootas, I think making them give an extra shot would make them more effective in terms of the volume of shots we get from it. Kustom Shootas should be our equivalent of master crafted bolters, Assault 4, AP-1 D2. That makes it so when they hit they actually do something versus just getting marginally more shoota shots.
Overall though, I'd rather Meganobz be more tough (T5, an extra wound?) or more killy (+1WS or +1A, +1D to melee attacks) to compete with the newer CC units. Shooting is better left for the specialists.
Since Terminators got the 3rd wound (and almost always the 3rd attack), they are in almost every possible way better than MANZ, which is really a shame... Better Shooting, built-in DS and invul save, more weapons options, options to field more than 30 (if you really want to), more buff characters plus all the other marine shenanigans (chapter tactics, ATSKNF, doctrines or even INNER CIRCLE) that are more than equivalent to our best clan traits, and that all for about the same points cost... Even in CC, marines are at least equal, the bonus strength and double-saw-option in my opinion don't make up for TH/SS... In comparison to a terminator, MANz should be a maximum of 30 points or get a significant stat boost...
I just want MANZ to be T5 and either have an extra attack or WS2+. A little bit tougher and a little bit killier. I wouldn't be shocked if they go up to 5" move since DGs termies went from 4 to 5.
With all of the above they'd be great IMO. Still weak to super high AP and/or flat damage 3 and terrible shooting, but at least they'd feel powerful in CC.
I wish they'd either let them have decent shooting or make them more durable/more effective in combat. Ever since -1 damage has been dropping I've lost a lot of the effectiveness on my Killsaws and Powerklaws against things like dreadnoughts or just deathguard in general. I have a LOT of Meganobz, not 30 but I can field a full squad of 10 of them. Just wish they were better.
My terminators feel significantly more durable and more powerful than my Meganobz, along with having significantly more powerful offense.
Making HIT EM HARDER a bespoke rule as opposed to a stratagem is a good step, its better than just flatout adjusting all Ork weapons up, or at least making Meganobz seem to be a cut above the rest which they should be. The reason I say this is because their isn't much point moving them down in price, as they already outcompete Nobz and making them cheaper just invalidates Nobz more. Make them worth what they cost, either through a durability buff, an offensive buff, or both.
One of the things I wish they'd do and this is more of a wishlist. Instead of just giving Deff Dreads a simple durability buff like -1 damage, give them the Ramshackle rule but also Dreaded Deff Machine as a bespoke rule. Let Ork vehicles be more potent on the offensive along with occasionally being more durable to weapons than a marine dreadnought. Also Killa Kanz should have Klan rules. It has been stated that most Orks don't realize that there is a Grot inside the thing and well they, along with mek gunz are the only units in their category that just don't benefit from Klan Rules or their counterparts. It would be like if Devastators didn't get the Imperial Fist chapter tactics because they're new, or perhaps more accurately Scouts. (and they shall know no unfavorable rules)...
well guessing from the cavedrawing video theres gonna be mega armor that isnt using klaws/saws.
Possible that spawns another meganob box with more melee weapons and theyre actually good, with shoulder-grot gunners n whatnot.
A guy can dream...
Also yeah Meganobz should be T5. Nobz in general should be T5 but Megas should definitely be T5.
zoltan88 wrote: This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.
Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I have made a list for deathskulls with Ghaz in it, but sadly i havent tried it yet. Im also not the most skilled nor the guy with the most models to make the best combinations of units. So sadly i have no knowledge of having Ghaz in anything BUT a Goff detatchment.
But ive seen Ghaz in different klans on youtube battle repports. I think i once saw him in a bad moonz group as well, holding the line in a chokepoint while the backline was shooting.
But i do think Ghaz in a deathskulls army could work. and i mean think, because i havent tried it. The idea of deathskulls infantry army with MANz and blobs of boyz or maybe even Nobz, which would be more duable due to the 6++ and then having Ghaz as well, might be an interesting way of going about it. While i do think the 6++ is great, im more about that reroll and Obsec from deathskulls though. I feel like thats where its at, for things like maybe buggies and such.
if im not mistaken, i think that Dangliboy ork youtuber showed a winning tournement list with a ghaz in a deathskulls company. But im not 100% sure if my memory is right on that point.
If I may, I can tell you about my exp with a mechanized DS list with Ghaz.
Ghaz
Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic
2x10grot
1x28 boys with nob dual saw
1x5 MANs
9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk
3scrap with corkscrew
Morkanaut with sparkly bits
Battlewagon with death rolla.
So basically you divide the force on classical hammer and anvil. Hammer holds the battlewagon with MANs and 1xgrot (to absorb casualties (block charges after explosions or even grot shield on the MANs), also Ghazz and as second line and fast reaction the trukk with nobs. Anvil flank has the morka scorted by the scraps.
Boys are utility. I use da jump to send them forward into objetives or simply blocking the enemies advance.
The "synergy" from Ghaz is on the heavy obsec hitters giving them +1 or +2 attacks (warpath) and run and charge.
Usually Ghaz is ignored until turn 3 as battlewagon and morka are much pressing threats for antitank and then is when he can krump some hummies!
Weirdboy is my warlod with kunning but brutal and after jumping the boys hands around fixing vehicles, smitting and buffing things.
zoltan88 wrote: This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.
Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I have made a list for deathskulls with Ghaz in it, but sadly i havent tried it yet. Im also not the most skilled nor the guy with the most models to make the best combinations of units. So sadly i have no knowledge of having Ghaz in anything BUT a Goff detatchment.
But ive seen Ghaz in different klans on youtube battle repports. I think i once saw him in a bad moonz group as well, holding the line in a chokepoint while the backline was shooting.
But i do think Ghaz in a deathskulls army could work. and i mean think, because i havent tried it. The idea of deathskulls infantry army with MANz and blobs of boyz or maybe even Nobz, which would be more duable due to the 6++ and then having Ghaz as well, might be an interesting way of going about it. While i do think the 6++ is great, im more about that reroll and Obsec from deathskulls though. I feel like thats where its at, for things like maybe buggies and such.
if im not mistaken, i think that Dangliboy ork youtuber showed a winning tournement list with a ghaz in a deathskulls company. But im not 100% sure if my memory is right on that point.
If I may, I can tell you about my exp with a mechanized DS list with Ghaz.
Ghaz
Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic
2x10grot
1x28 boys with nob dual saw
1x5 MANs
9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk
3scrap with corkscrew
Morkanaut with sparkly bits
Battlewagon with death rolla forktress
So basically you divide the force on classical hammer and anvil. Hammer holds the battlewagon with MANs and 1xgrot (to absorb casualties (block charges after explosions or even grot shield on the MANs), also Ghazz and as second line and fast reaction the trukk with nobs. Anvil flank has the morka scorted by the scraps.
Boys are utility. I use da jump to send them forward into objetives or simply blocking the enemies advance.
The "synergy" from Ghaz is on the heavy obsec hitters giving them +1 or +2 attacks (warpath) and run and charge.
Usually Ghaz is ignored until turn 3 as battlewagon and morka are much pressing threats for antitank and then is when he can krump some hummies!
Weirdboy is my warlod with kunning but brutal and after jumping the boys hands around fixing vehicles, smitting and buffing things.
zoltan88 wrote: This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own. If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek. If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.
Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I have made a list for deathskulls with Ghaz in it, but sadly i havent tried it yet. Im also not the most skilled nor the guy with the most models to make the best combinations of units. So sadly i have no knowledge of having Ghaz in anything BUT a Goff detatchment.
But ive seen Ghaz in different klans on youtube battle repports. I think i once saw him in a bad moonz group as well, holding the line in a chokepoint while the backline was shooting.
But i do think Ghaz in a deathskulls army could work. and i mean think, because i havent tried it. The idea of deathskulls infantry army with MANz and blobs of boyz or maybe even Nobz, which would be more duable due to the 6++ and then having Ghaz as well, might be an interesting way of going about it. While i do think the 6++ is great, im more about that reroll and Obsec from deathskulls though. I feel like thats where its at, for things like maybe buggies and such.
if im not mistaken, i think that Dangliboy ork youtuber showed a winning tournement list with a ghaz in a deathskulls company. But im not 100% sure if my memory is right on that point.
If I may, I can tell you about my exp with a mechanized DS list with Ghaz.
Ghaz Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic 2x10grot 1x28 boys with nob dual saw 1x5 MANs 9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk 3scrap with corkscrew Morkanaut with sparkly bits Battlewagon with death rolla.
So basically you divide the force on classical hammer and anvil. Hammer holds the battlewagon with MANs and 1xgrot (to absorb casualties (block charges after explosions or even grot shield on the MANs), also Ghazz and as second line and fast reaction the trukk with nobs. Anvil flank has the morka scorted by the scraps.
Boys are utility. I use da jump to send them forward into objetives or simply blocking the enemies advance.
The "synergy" from Ghaz is on the heavy obsec hitters giving them +1 or +2 attacks (warpath) and run and charge.
Usually Ghaz is ignored until turn 3 as battlewagon and morka are much pressing threats for antitank and then is when he can krump some hummies!
Weirdboy is my warlod with kunning but brutal and after jumping the boys hands around fixing vehicles, smitting and buffing things.
Im assuming the MANZ are inside the battlewagon, so how are the grots meant to take casulties instead? Grot Shields only work on infantry.
But interesting combination of units. Does it do well at all?
Also guys:
How much of a priority is it for you to bring a painboy if you bring Ghazzy?
Ghaz
Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic
2x10grot
1x28 boys with nob dual saw
1x5 MANs
9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk
3scrap with corkscrew
Morkanaut with sparkly bits
Battlewagon with death rolla
Yeah, I played againts such list twice and always beat them like a hell. And played it twice myself. And always lose masivelly. Such list suffers elementary problem of the mixed ork lists.
Orks are weak. Die fast. Do not survive. 6++ doesn' t save you.
Only way how to keep army alive is to spam one type of target.
Such list has not enought boyz to flood the field right and not enought heavy vehicles to ignore anti infantry weapons.
addnid wrote: Triple kill tank would probably work very well against TS
If you're using the bursta variant maybe? But then the gun feels fairly over kill for blasting apart the (currently one wound) troops. Though it fairs better against the termies.
The dakka variant on the other hand loses some of it's punch with the all is dust rule. Would you even be able to clear out a unit a turn? Don't get me wrong I adore killtanks, but against TS they may struggle.
I run only the dakka variant (bad moons has so far been the best), the bursta is too expensive IMHO. Well I think you have so many shots and so many attacks in CC that for a 275 point unit, you will get your kill count of rubrics even if they get 3+ or 4+ save.
And anyway, you can just engage them in CC and score with the rest of the list. Bad moon dakka kill tanks, and a deathskull battalion with many obsec infantry units, with a splash of smasha gunz. Works quite well honestly.
If you don't require much kills from the kill tank shots you don't really need to have them as bad moons. As deathskulls with a waagh banner and the deathskull psychic for the extra AP, they can do a number in CC.
Also their CC profile is quite good to deal damage to magnus, as their low AP¨is not an issue.
So I stand by my statement, triple dakka kill tanks is a fine way to beat TS
I dunno, the bursta does pretty dirty things to Gravis type targets and tanks alike. Personally I like both in a list.
zoltan88 wrote: This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.
Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I have made a list for deathskulls with Ghaz in it, but sadly i havent tried it yet. Im also not the most skilled nor the guy with the most models to make the best combinations of units. So sadly i have no knowledge of having Ghaz in anything BUT a Goff detatchment.
But ive seen Ghaz in different klans on youtube battle repports. I think i once saw him in a bad moonz group as well, holding the line in a chokepoint while the backline was shooting.
But i do think Ghaz in a deathskulls army could work. and i mean think, because i havent tried it. The idea of deathskulls infantry army with MANz and blobs of boyz or maybe even Nobz, which would be more duable due to the 6++ and then having Ghaz as well, might be an interesting way of going about it. While i do think the 6++ is great, im more about that reroll and Obsec from deathskulls though. I feel like thats where its at, for things like maybe buggies and such.
if im not mistaken, i think that Dangliboy ork youtuber showed a winning tournement list with a ghaz in a deathskulls company. But im not 100% sure if my memory is right on that point.
If I may, I can tell you about my exp with a mechanized DS list with Ghaz.
Ghaz
Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic
2x10grot
1x28 boys with nob dual saw
1x5 MANs
9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk
3scrap with corkscrew
Morkanaut with sparkly bits
Battlewagon with death rolla.
So basically you divide the force on classical hammer and anvil. Hammer holds the battlewagon with MANs and 1xgrot (to absorb casualties (block charges after explosions or even grot shield on the MANs), also Ghazz and as second line and fast reaction the trukk with nobs. Anvil flank has the morka scorted by the scraps.
Boys are utility. I use da jump to send them forward into objetives or simply blocking the enemies advance.
The "synergy" from Ghaz is on the heavy obsec hitters giving them +1 or +2 attacks (warpath) and run and charge.
Usually Ghaz is ignored until turn 3 as battlewagon and morka are much pressing threats for antitank and then is when he can krump some hummies!
Weirdboy is my warlod with kunning but brutal and after jumping the boys hands around fixing vehicles, smitting and buffing things.
Im assuming the MANZ are inside the battlewagon, so how are the grots meant to take casulties instead? Grot Shields only work on infantry.
But interesting combination of units. Does it do well at all?
Also guys:
How much of a priority is it for you to bring a painboy if you bring Ghazzy?
When the transport dies you roll a number of dices equal to the transported minis. The rules does not force you to roll them by units. So I roll 10+5 dices. Each 1 is a dead gretchin. Thus saving my MANs.
As for results. So far so good. Running it in a local league I am on semi finals 5-0 so far. Went against ultras twice, custodes, deathwatch and chaos.
Ghaz
Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic
2x10grot
1x28 boys with nob dual saw
1x5 MANs
9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk
3scrap with corkscrew
Morkanaut with sparkly bits
Battlewagon with death rolla
Yeah, I played againts such list twice and always beat them like a hell. And played it twice myself. And always lose masivelly. Such list suffers elementary problem of the mixed ork lists.
Orks are weak. Die fast. Do not survive. 6++ doesn' t save you.
Only way how to keep army alive is to spam one type of target.
Such list has not enought boyz to flood the field right and not enought heavy vehicles to ignore anti infantry weapons.
zoltan88 wrote: I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
First, check your attitude. I have run Gazzy in a DS list. It doesn't work - you can't heal him. You would need to bring a Goff detachment too. In mono DS skulls he loses the one thing he does well - which is avoid dieing quick. I have since removed Gazzy from my list ideas because I find the biker boss with killer klaw annd brutal but kunning actually hits way more reliably because it isn't terrified of rolling 1s like Gazzy. I had Gazzy go into two kabalite warriors yesterday and he killed 1, the dude is dead to me.
Now, to actually add some discussion, below is a thought on a While We Stand list for orks. Will try it out and let you guys know how it does - it might be a stupid idea.
Spoiler:
++ Deathskulls Brigade [108 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
+ HQ +
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Grot Oiler
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Grot Oiler
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Da Kleverest Boss, Super Cybork Body
Warboss on Warbike: Da Biggest Boss, Da Killa Klaw, Brutal but Kunning, Power Klaw, Warlord
+ Troops +
10x units of 10x Grots
+ Elites +
Mek W/ Choppa and Kustom Mega-Slugga
Mek W/ Choppa and Kustom Mega-Slugga
Mek W/ Choppa and Kustom Mega-Slugga
+ Fast Attack +
1x DeffKopta W/ Twin Big Shoota
1x DeffKopta W/ Twin Big Shoota
1x DeffKopta W/ Twin Big Shoota
When the transport dies you roll a number of dices equal to the transported minis. The rules does not force you to roll them by units. So I roll 10+5 dices. Each 1 is a dead gretchin. Thus saving my MANs.
This is right. Plus you can put grots between enemy and MANz and protect them againts charge. And also protect them againts shooting. Grot shield has in fact almost no sence, but his existence is massive psychological weapon, that usually makes enemies shoot the grots first and MANz after.
Plus you can use emergency disembark for cheap - just kill more grots - and put your MANz in 6”. So it' s hard to kill them by blocking the space for disembark and easy to do some cool tricks about LOS or securing objectives.
Anyway - running MANz in transport without “ablative wounds” for case of destruction of the transport seems to me like a wasting. Transport with MANz is always destroied pretty fast and you roll some 1 almost every time and one MAN is 40p and about 20-33% of the squad. So let him die because of one roll seems to be stupid...
Beardedragon wrote: I mean 10 MANZ is like 400 points with kill saws. so 30 would be 1200 points just of CCMANZ.
I really wish they would make MANZ better at shooting like other terminators, so we actually had good all rounder infantry in the elite section.
I only have 8 MANZ though, so im far away from trying 30 of em
I remember that back in the old days of fandexes before we had mainline klan rules again in 8th ed, there were people who wrote the Bad Moonz fandex to have Meganobz with heavy and snazzy weapons attached to them rather than shootas and power klaws so that they could make the most of the Slow and Purposeful rule they used to have. They were basically our version of broadside battlesuits.
Honestly, whether or not their shooting is meaningful at all in our next codex will depend on what they do with shootas as a whole. Right now shootas are pretty meh in terms of mainline infantry weapons, especially on an Ork BS platform. Depending on how they buff big shootas, I think making them give an extra shot would make them more effective in terms of the volume of shots we get from it. Kustom Shootas should be our equivalent of master crafted bolters, Assault 4, AP-1 D2. That makes it so when they hit they actually do something versus just getting marginally more shoota shots.
Overall though, I'd rather Meganobz be more tough (T5, an extra wound?) or more killy (+1WS or +1A, +1D to melee attacks) to compete with the newer CC units. Shooting is better left for the specialists.
Great, now I have those cool expectations that are going to be shattered when the new dex hits Love the idea of rediculously rich, tooled for max dakka MANZ
zoltan88 wrote: This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own. If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek. If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.
Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I have made a list for deathskulls with Ghaz in it, but sadly i havent tried it yet. Im also not the most skilled nor the guy with the most models to make the best combinations of units. So sadly i have no knowledge of having Ghaz in anything BUT a Goff detatchment.
But ive seen Ghaz in different klans on youtube battle repports. I think i once saw him in a bad moonz group as well, holding the line in a chokepoint while the backline was shooting.
But i do think Ghaz in a deathskulls army could work. and i mean think, because i havent tried it. The idea of deathskulls infantry army with MANz and blobs of boyz or maybe even Nobz, which would be more duable due to the 6++ and then having Ghaz as well, might be an interesting way of going about it. While i do think the 6++ is great, im more about that reroll and Obsec from deathskulls though. I feel like thats where its at, for things like maybe buggies and such.
if im not mistaken, i think that Dangliboy ork youtuber showed a winning tournement list with a ghaz in a deathskulls company. But im not 100% sure if my memory is right on that point.
If I may, I can tell you about my exp with a mechanized DS list with Ghaz.
Ghaz Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic 2x10grot 1x28 boys with nob dual saw 1x5 MANs 9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk 3scrap with corkscrew Morkanaut with sparkly bits Battlewagon with death rolla.
So basically you divide the force on classical hammer and anvil. Hammer holds the battlewagon with MANs and 1xgrot (to absorb casualties (block charges after explosions or even grot shield on the MANs), also Ghazz and as second line and fast reaction the trukk with nobs. Anvil flank has the morka scorted by the scraps.
Boys are utility. I use da jump to send them forward into objetives or simply blocking the enemies advance.
The "synergy" from Ghaz is on the heavy obsec hitters giving them +1 or +2 attacks (warpath) and run and charge.
Usually Ghaz is ignored until turn 3 as battlewagon and morka are much pressing threats for antitank and then is when he can krump some hummies!
Weirdboy is my warlod with kunning but brutal and after jumping the boys hands around fixing vehicles, smitting and buffing things.
Im assuming the MANZ are inside the battlewagon, so how are the grots meant to take casulties instead? Grot Shields only work on infantry.
But interesting combination of units. Does it do well at all?
Also guys:
How much of a priority is it for you to bring a painboy if you bring Ghazzy?
When the transport dies you roll a number of dices equal to the transported minis. The rules does not force you to roll them by units. So I roll 10+5 dices. Each 1 is a dead gretchin. Thus saving my MANs.
As for results. So far so good. Running it in a local league I am on semi finals 5-0 so far. Went against ultras twice, custodes, deathwatch and chaos.
Ghaz Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic 2x10grot 1x28 boys with nob dual saw 1x5 MANs 9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk 3scrap with corkscrew Morkanaut with sparkly bits Battlewagon with death rolla
Yeah, I played againts such list twice and always beat them like a hell. And played it twice myself. And always lose masivelly. Such list suffers elementary problem of the mixed ork lists.
Orks are weak. Die fast. Do not survive. 6++ doesn' t save you.
Only way how to keep army alive is to spam one type of target.
Such list has not enought boyz to flood the field right and not enought heavy vehicles to ignore anti infantry weapons.
What can I say, we had different experiences.
oooh so the grots were also inside the battlewagon? Gotcha i misunderstood, I thought they ran around outside.
now i understand what you mean.
You guys know what i find annoying about Lootas? The fact that its completely random how many shots you get. Like, you could have 15 lootas and only get 15 shots. Thats definitely not worth the amount of points you pay for them. They should be flat 3 shots or something.
it feels silly to pay for a unit that isnt worth it. But on the other hand, if you get all 3 shots, it seem very much worth it.
Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless
addnid wrote: Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless
i never said their guns couldnt be better.
Im simply calling out that 300 points to get 15 shots hitting 5s is terrible. Who wants to pay for that? 10 flash gitz is 320 points, they get 30 shots total hitting on 4s, 3 shots of which hits on 3s due to targeting squigs from the Flash Gitz kaptain (and flash gitz are too expensive too). Getting -2AP doesnt make the unit remarkably great on its own, as you can potentially still get only 15 shots, most of which wont hit. So getting 15 -2AP shots for 300 points dont sound too amazing when you hit on 5s. You might get 4 hits or so out of that. Where as your 15 lootas for 300 points would be worth it if they got all 3 shots each for a total of 45 shots.
15 shots --> not worth 300 points. 30 shots --> may be worth 300 points. 45 shots --> seems very much worth the 300 points to me.
I would very much like the lootas to have -2AP but only getting 15 shots off hitting 5s? Even with -2AP? not worth it. Not for 300 points. Unless you got.. at least 2 shots each for a total of 30. The lootas can be completely terrible and not worth their cost, or they can be completely worth their cost.
and thats 300 points without a spanner. To be able to reroll that amount of shots you'd even have to pay 2 CP to do so due to the amount. So you want to pay around 300 points + 2CP just for your 15 (i guess 14 if one is a spanner) Lootas to be almost guaranteed to get +2 shots or +3 shots due to rerolls.
Getting a fixed amount of shots (3 maybe 4?) or making us able to reroll the amount EACH round without paying CP for the spanner (maybe just a normal cost) makes the unit consistent instead of random and would be sufficient for me. But i would definitely welcome a -2AP given everything apparently survives super well these days, and ork weapons were somehow left behind on that memo. This is especially still true if Grots dont get cheaper making grot shields super expensive or there will be another way of protecting your Lootas from damage.
It's only one roll for the shots, so you can use a CP to re-roll it. If you want even more reliability you can use the clever spanner stratagem to get 3 shots almost all the time, and rarely, if ever, 1 shot.
The main issue IMO is AP-1 and 20 points for a model that is less survivable than a 5 point pox walker.
Jidmah wrote: It's only one roll for the shots, so you can use a CP to re-roll it. If you want even more reliability you can use the clever spanner stratagem to get 3 shots almost all the time, and rarely, if ever, 1 shot.
The main issue IMO is AP-1 and 20 points for a model that is less survivable than a 5 point pox walker.
but the clever spanner stratagem says you can only do it once, so i understood it as i could only do that reroll once. I guess i have misunderstood how works. So if you pay 2 CP for that guy you can reroll each round? Thats good, and i clearly understood it wrong, but i still dont want to pay 2CP to be able to reroll each round just to avoid getting 15 shots total.I would prefer if that was a point cost upgrade.
But the lowest spectrum of shots, 1 per model, 15 shots is too low if you cant reroll for a point cost that doesnt have to be a CP sink. Not enough damage (weapon profile + hitting on 5s) or not enough shots hitting. And yes, too low survivability. But i think i agree with you guys, that id rather want better weapons profile than more shots, IF the clever spanner stratagem would be a point upgrade instead. Because sure, you can still get 15 shots after your reroll, but its more consistent at least, and if its a point upgrade rather than CP, i wouldnt be wasting a ton of CP just to make a unit that has no survivability and a -1AP decent.
And yes the -1AP value is terrible. Its terrible not only on its own, but because this unit is expensive for how easy it is to kill.
zoltan88 wrote: This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.
"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.
When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?
The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.
Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?
I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
I have made a list for deathskulls with Ghaz in it, but sadly i havent tried it yet. Im also not the most skilled nor the guy with the most models to make the best combinations of units. So sadly i have no knowledge of having Ghaz in anything BUT a Goff detatchment.
But ive seen Ghaz in different klans on youtube battle repports. I think i once saw him in a bad moonz group as well, holding the line in a chokepoint while the backline was shooting.
But i do think Ghaz in a deathskulls army could work. and i mean think, because i havent tried it. The idea of deathskulls infantry army with MANz and blobs of boyz or maybe even Nobz, which would be more duable due to the 6++ and then having Ghaz as well, might be an interesting way of going about it. While i do think the 6++ is great, im more about that reroll and Obsec from deathskulls though. I feel like thats where its at, for things like maybe buggies and such.
if im not mistaken, i think that Dangliboy ork youtuber showed a winning tournement list with a ghaz in a deathskulls company. But im not 100% sure if my memory is right on that point.
If I may, I can tell you about my exp with a mechanized DS list with Ghaz.
Ghaz
Weirdboy-mek with da jump, warpath and DS relic
2x10grot
1x28 boys with nob dual saw
1x5 MANs
9+1 nobs with bc on a trukk
3scrap with corkscrew
Morkanaut with sparkly bits
Battlewagon with death rolla.
So basically you divide the force on classical hammer and anvil. Hammer holds the battlewagon with MANs and 1xgrot (to absorb casualties (block charges after explosions or even grot shield on the MANs), also Ghazz and as second line and fast reaction the trukk with nobs. Anvil flank has the morka scorted by the scraps.
Boys are utility. I use da jump to send them forward into objetives or simply blocking the enemies advance.
The "synergy" from Ghaz is on the heavy obsec hitters giving them +1 or +2 attacks (warpath) and run and charge.
Usually Ghaz is ignored until turn 3 as battlewagon and morka are much pressing threats for antitank and then is when he can krump some hummies!
Weirdboy is my warlod with kunning but brutal and after jumping the boys hands around fixing vehicles, smitting and buffing things.
Thank you for your input. This is an intriguing list. It sounds like a Ghazzy DS list needs some other high-priority vehicles to keep him alive. My current list idea of running 60 boyz, nobs, and manz with him probably wants to be goffs or dual kultur.
I also like the strategy of jumping 30 boyz in as a suicide distraction that has a 58% chance of making the charge and doing some serious damage. I never thought about using the weirdboy as a mek after that. Kunning but brutal is one of my favorite warlord traits. Underrated IMO. Orks need to be sneaky to be good right now, and this WT is where it's at. I'll sometimes use it with the Deffkilla wartrike and 3 KMB deff dreads. Deploy them first all the way in the back and then re-deploy them where I need to depending on who gets first turn. Oftentimes can blow up an unsuspecting opponent's transports without any risk of the deff dreads dying turn 1, saves 2 CP on a tellyporta for the dreads, and allows you to use them safely in round 1.
zoltan88 wrote: I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.
First, check your attitude. I have run Gazzy in a DS list. It doesn't work - you can't heal him. You would need to bring a Goff detachment too. In mono DS skulls he loses the one thing he does well - which is avoid dieing quick. I have since removed Gazzy from my list ideas because I find the biker boss with killer klaw annd brutal but kunning actually hits way more reliably because it isn't terrified of rolling 1s like Gazzy. I had Gazzy go into two kabalite warriors yesterday and he killed 1, the dude is dead to me.
Now, to actually add some discussion, below is a thought on a While We Stand list for orks. Will try it out and let you guys know how it does - it might be a stupid idea.
Spoiler:
++ Deathskulls Brigade [108 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
+ HQ +
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Grot Oiler
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Grot Oiler
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Da Kleverest Boss, Super Cybork Body
Warboss on Warbike: Da Biggest Boss, Da Killa Klaw, Brutal but Kunning, Power Klaw, Warlord
+ Troops +
10x units of 10x Grots
+ Elites +
Mek W/ Choppa and Kustom Mega-Slugga
Mek W/ Choppa and Kustom Mega-Slugga
Mek W/ Choppa and Kustom Mega-Slugga
+ Fast Attack +
1x DeffKopta W/ Twin Big Shoota
1x DeffKopta W/ Twin Big Shoota
1x DeffKopta W/ Twin Big Shoota
Also thank you for your input. This is the type of feedback I was looking for.
My frustration is with a select few people who seem to pass judgement on people when asking for input.
Me: "Does anyone have experience using Ghaz in a DS list?"
Them: "Something is wrong with your play."
I don't claim to be an expert, and I like to try outside the box lists to find synergies I wouldn't have normally found. I also wasn't looking for responses that confirmed my biased opinion. I was looking for constructive dialogue on experience using ghazzy in a DS list and what worked or didn't work. The recent tournament results suggest that outside the box ork lists can perform very well, probably because they are catching the opponent off guard.
Anyway, I won't be posting anymore on here so you don't have to worry about it. Just pointing out that it's not open dialogue around here.
addnid wrote: Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless
i never said their guns couldnt be better.
Im simply calling out that 300 points to get 15 shots hitting 5s is terrible. Who wants to pay for that? 10 flash gitz is 320 points, they get 30 shots total hitting on 4s, 3 shots of which hits on 3s due to targeting squigs from the Flash Gitz kaptain (and flash gitz are too expensive too). Getting -2AP doesnt make the unit remarkably great on its own, as you can potentially still get only 15 shots, most of which wont hit. So getting 15 -2AP shots for 300 points dont sound too amazing when you hit on 5s. You might get 4 hits or so out of that. Where as your 15 lootas for 300 points would be worth it if they got all 3 shots each for a total of 45 shots.
15 shots --> not worth 300 points.
30 shots --> may be worth 300 points.
45 shots --> seems very much worth the 300 points to me.
I would very much like the lootas to have -2AP but only getting 15 shots off hitting 5s? Even with -2AP? not worth it. Not for 300 points. Unless you got.. at least 2 shots each for a total of 30. The lootas can be completely terrible and not worth their cost, or they can be completely worth their cost.
and thats 300 points without a spanner. To be able to reroll that amount of shots you'd even have to pay 2 CP to do so due to the amount. So you want to pay around 300 points + 2CP just for your 15 (i guess 14 if one is a spanner) Lootas to be almost guaranteed to get +2 shots or +3 shots due to rerolls.
Getting a fixed amount of shots (3 maybe 4?) or making us able to reroll the amount EACH round without paying CP for the spanner (maybe just a normal cost) makes the unit consistent instead of random and would be sufficient for me. But i would definitely welcome a -2AP given everything apparently survives super well these days, and ork weapons were somehow left behind on that memo. This is especially still true if Grots dont get cheaper making grot shields super expensive or there will be another way of protecting your Lootas from damage.
Well lets look at it through the eye of another faction. For 309pts Chaos can have 2 full squads of Havocs with autocannons and 1 extra sgt and 1 extra havoc. They get 18 shots for 12 hits. Those 300pts of Lootas average 30 shots and 11-12 hits. We have 15 wounds at T4 and 6+, they have 12 wounds at T5 3+. For imperial guard, you can get 9 Autcannons for 150pts which net you 9 hits and take 3 sentinels for 3 more autocannons for less than 150pts more. So 3 more hits on average for a total of 12
So they get 12 wounds at T3 5+ and 18 wounds at T6 3+.
And now, most importantly, keep in mind, Chaos usually don't take havocs with Autocannons and Imperial guard aren't taking Heavy weapons teams with autocannons nor sentinels with autocannons. Why? Because they have better weapon load outs that do more damage to targets.
-2AP would be good on Lootas, but it wouldn't help them overly much since they still suffer from their biggest problem, being glass cannons. A single loota is 20pts a single havoc is 28pts. They both average 2 shots but the Havoc is BS3 and has T5 with a 3+ save compared to the lootas BS5 and T4 6+. So is +1 BS, T and +2 Save worth 8pts? If targeted by just throw away bolter shots the difference in durability is MASSIVE. IT takes less than 4 bolter shots to kill a loota (4 shots 2.6 hits, 1.3 wounds 1.14ish dead lootas) it takes 15 bolter shots to kill 1 Havoc. 1 Heavy bolter kills 1.33 lootas, it kills 0.5 Havocs. Now I get it, comparing units across factions gets some peoples panties in a twist but oh well . The point they are usually trying to make is that you can't compare a unit outside of its factions for synergy reasons. Well lets do that. Havocs sit at T5 3+ amongst a horde of vehicles and T4 3+ models, generally speaking Chaos is shorter ranged then imperials therefore the havocs sit along somewhat at the back of the bus. So your opponent is in a situation where they cant target the havocs with different weapons then they would want to target enemy infantry with. So good for them.
Now with Lootas, same thing, they sit with the same profile as ork boyz and therefore your opponent gains no real bonus vs them with special weapons compared to boyz, so he has to choose, shoot the lootas or shoot the boys. The problem is that at the moment the enemy isn't choosing because you are as the ork player. Lootas are too expensive for what little dmg they do, so you are either taking them in minimum squads which can easily be ignored or you are taking them in big 15 blobs so you can spend CP on them to increase their firepower and hopefully get some bang for your buck, and if you do that you have sunk a significant amount of points into a VERY Squishy unit.
The solution? Make lootas cheaper. SM, CSM, Imperial guard, all these factions get Autocannons as upgrades for 10pts. Why are ork boyz getting them for 12pts? Keeping in mind I think ork boyz at 8pts is too high. So that would be 17PPM (if boyz were 7pts) instead of 20, but even that is too much because again we are dealing with BS5 not BS4 nor BS3. and unlike the aforementioned factions, we don't have easy access to reroll to hits/wounds. So I would argue a DeffGun is actually closer to 8pts rather than 10. So a loota should be 15pts not 20. So 15 lootas puts you at 225 not 300. Now you can invest in 2 or 3 massive blobs of lootas and still have points left over. 3 blobs of 15 would be 675 where it used to be 900. At this point you have done what orkz NEED to do to win, flood the board with units that the enemy doesn't have enough dakka to get rid of fast enough.
We once talked about wanting Choppas to be -1AP and Big Choppas, -2AP.
But now that i think about it i think thats not gonna happen. Not for the Big Choppa at least. Buzzgob which was updated with the forge world book, uses a Big Choppa and that weapon has the same value as it has always had.
So if the forge world book is anything to go by, then Big Choppas, at least, dont get a -2AP upgrade from its -1AP
panzerfront14 wrote: I wish they'd either let them have decent shooting or make them more durable/more effective in combat. Ever since -1 damage has been dropping I've lost a lot of the effectiveness on my Killsaws and Powerklaws against things like dreadnoughts or just deathguard in general. I have a LOT of Meganobz, not 30 but I can field a full squad of 10 of them. Just wish they were better.
My terminators feel significantly more durable and more powerful than my Meganobz, along with having significantly more powerful offense.
Making HIT EM HARDER a bespoke rule as opposed to a stratagem is a good step, its better than just flatout adjusting all Ork weapons up, or at least making Meganobz seem to be a cut above the rest which they should be. The reason I say this is because their isn't much point moving them down in price, as they already outcompete Nobz and making them cheaper just invalidates Nobz more. Make them worth what they cost, either through a durability buff, an offensive buff, or both.
One of the things I wish they'd do and this is more of a wishlist. Instead of just giving Deff Dreads a simple durability buff like -1 damage, give them the Ramshackle rule but also Dreaded Deff Machine as a bespoke rule. Let Ork vehicles be more potent on the offensive along with occasionally being more durable to weapons than a marine dreadnought. Also Killa Kanz should have Klan rules. It has been stated that most Orks don't realize that there is a Grot inside the thing and well they, along with mek gunz are the only units in their category that just don't benefit from Klan Rules or their counterparts. It would be like if Devastators didn't get the Imperial Fist chapter tactics because they're new, or perhaps more accurately Scouts. (and they shall know no unfavorable rules)...
Ive said this for a while that some of our strats and kustom jobs should just be included in our baseline units. Deffdreads arent noticably cheaper than Dreadnoughts, and Meganobz are more expensive than Terminators whilst also being worse. I know we shouldnt compare units but just look at Incubi now for 16ppm then our poor Nobz who are 17ppm with literally just choppas. If we look at what Incubi and Wyches got, I think Orks might be in a good spot. Those 2 units are such blenders for the cost you pay for them, its just how they will make our units lethal because updating weapon profiles wont be enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: We once talked about wanting Choppas to be -1AP and Big Choppas, -2AP.
But now that i think about it i think thats not gonna happen. Not for the Big Choppa at least. Buzzgob which was updated with the forge world book, uses a Big Choppa and that weapon has the same value as it has always had.
So if the forge world book is anything to go by, then Big Choppas, at least, dont get a -2AP upgrade from its -1AP
I wouldnt use the Compendium as the be all end all of whats to come. The Reaper and Tantalus dont get Power of Pain, when in the codex Raiders, Venoms and Ravagers do.
addnid wrote: Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless
i never said their guns couldnt be better.
Im simply calling out that 300 points to get 15 shots hitting 5s is terrible. Who wants to pay for that? 10 flash gitz is 320 points, they get 30 shots total hitting on 4s, 3 shots of which hits on 3s due to targeting squigs from the Flash Gitz kaptain (and flash gitz are too expensive too). Getting -2AP doesnt make the unit remarkably great on its own, as you can potentially still get only 15 shots, most of which wont hit. So getting 15 -2AP shots for 300 points dont sound too amazing when you hit on 5s. You might get 4 hits or so out of that. Where as your 15 lootas for 300 points would be worth it if they got all 3 shots each for a total of 45 shots.
15 shots --> not worth 300 points.
30 shots --> may be worth 300 points.
45 shots --> seems very much worth the 300 points to me.
I would very much like the lootas to have -2AP but only getting 15 shots off hitting 5s? Even with -2AP? not worth it. Not for 300 points. Unless you got.. at least 2 shots each for a total of 30. The lootas can be completely terrible and not worth their cost, or they can be completely worth their cost.
and thats 300 points without a spanner. To be able to reroll that amount of shots you'd even have to pay 2 CP to do so due to the amount. So you want to pay around 300 points + 2CP just for your 15 (i guess 14 if one is a spanner) Lootas to be almost guaranteed to get +2 shots or +3 shots due to rerolls.
Getting a fixed amount of shots (3 maybe 4?) or making us able to reroll the amount EACH round without paying CP for the spanner (maybe just a normal cost) makes the unit consistent instead of random and would be sufficient for me. But i would definitely welcome a -2AP given everything apparently survives super well these days, and ork weapons were somehow left behind on that memo. This is especially still true if Grots dont get cheaper making grot shields super expensive or there will be another way of protecting your Lootas from damage.
Lootas have an even bigger problem than their output. Its also their toughness. Jid kind of touched on this before, a Loota is a toughness 4 6+ save boy. Even in cover thats a 5+ save. The game is swimming in AP and volume of shots. Even if you have the weapon profile you want, they are just gonna get blasted away. Lootas were fine in 8th as Bad Moons because of Grot Shields, Mob Up and generally being cheaper. For some reason which is an age old tradition for Orks, we are priced as if were shoot better or take better hits than we actually can. Then when you start comparing our units to others out there it becomes even more apparent. We used to pay more for Powerklaws than Powerfists, same with our Skorchas than Heavy Flamers. There are even more examples and tbh its pretty frustrating. Ork Boyz were 6pts then it was 7pts now its 8pts. I dont think a Boy is worth 8pts and a Grot really isnt worth 5pts. Lootas should probably have a 4+ save base (same with Burnas) and better Deffguns, something like Heavy 2 Str 7 AP2 Damage 2 and keep them below 20pts, maybe like 18pts. And if they are still D3 shots, atleast have it so that if you take a Spanna the strat from SotB is baked into his rules.
addnid wrote: Randomness is the spice of greenskin life, I totally disagree with you. Lootas should be AP 2 IMO, that is all they need. AP1 with a BS5+ is just useless
i never said their guns couldnt be better.
Im simply calling out that 300 points to get 15 shots hitting 5s is terrible. Who wants to pay for that? 10 flash gitz is 320 points, they get 30 shots total hitting on 4s, 3 shots of which hits on 3s due to targeting squigs from the Flash Gitz kaptain (and flash gitz are too expensive too). Getting -2AP doesnt make the unit remarkably great on its own, as you can potentially still get only 15 shots, most of which wont hit. So getting 15 -2AP shots for 300 points dont sound too amazing when you hit on 5s. You might get 4 hits or so out of that. Where as your 15 lootas for 300 points would be worth it if they got all 3 shots each for a total of 45 shots.
15 shots --> not worth 300 points.
30 shots --> may be worth 300 points.
45 shots --> seems very much worth the 300 points to me.
I would very much like the lootas to have -2AP but only getting 15 shots off hitting 5s? Even with -2AP? not worth it. Not for 300 points. Unless you got.. at least 2 shots each for a total of 30. The lootas can be completely terrible and not worth their cost, or they can be completely worth their cost.
and thats 300 points without a spanner. To be able to reroll that amount of shots you'd even have to pay 2 CP to do so due to the amount. So you want to pay around 300 points + 2CP just for your 15 (i guess 14 if one is a spanner) Lootas to be almost guaranteed to get +2 shots or +3 shots due to rerolls.
Getting a fixed amount of shots (3 maybe 4?) or making us able to reroll the amount EACH round without paying CP for the spanner (maybe just a normal cost) makes the unit consistent instead of random and would be sufficient for me. But i would definitely welcome a -2AP given everything apparently survives super well these days, and ork weapons were somehow left behind on that memo. This is especially still true if Grots dont get cheaper making grot shields super expensive or there will be another way of protecting your Lootas from damage.
Well lets look at it through the eye of another faction. For 309pts Chaos can have 2 full squads of Havocs with autocannons and 1 extra sgt and 1 extra havoc. They get 18 shots for 12 hits. Those 300pts of Lootas average 30 shots and 11-12 hits. We have 15 wounds at T4 and 6+, they have 12 wounds at T5 3+. For imperial guard, you can get 9 Autcannons for 150pts which net you 9 hits and take 3 sentinels for 3 more autocannons for less than 150pts more. So 3 more hits on average for a total of 12
So they get 12 wounds at T3 5+ and 18 wounds at T6 3+.
And now, most importantly, keep in mind, Chaos usually don't take havocs with Autocannons and Imperial guard aren't taking Heavy weapons teams with autocannons nor sentinels with autocannons. Why? Because they have better weapon load outs that do more damage to targets.
-2AP would be good on Lootas, but it wouldn't help them overly much since they still suffer from their biggest problem, being glass cannons. A single loota is 20pts a single havoc is 28pts. They both average 2 shots but the Havoc is BS3 and has T5 with a 3+ save compared to the lootas BS5 and T4 6+. So is +1 BS, T and +2 Save worth 8pts? If targeted by just throw away bolter shots the difference in durability is MASSIVE. IT takes less than 4 bolter shots to kill a loota (4 shots 2.6 hits, 1.3 wounds 1.14ish dead lootas) it takes 15 bolter shots to kill 1 Havoc. 1 Heavy bolter kills 1.33 lootas, it kills 0.5 Havocs. Now I get it, comparing units across factions gets some peoples panties in a twist but oh well . The point they are usually trying to make is that you can't compare a unit outside of its factions for synergy reasons. Well lets do that. Havocs sit at T5 3+ amongst a horde of vehicles and T4 3+ models, generally speaking Chaos is shorter ranged then imperials therefore the havocs sit along somewhat at the back of the bus. So your opponent is in a situation where they cant target the havocs with different weapons then they would want to target enemy infantry with. So good for them.
Now with Lootas, same thing, they sit with the same profile as ork boyz and therefore your opponent gains no real bonus vs them with special weapons compared to boyz, so he has to choose, shoot the lootas or shoot the boys. The problem is that at the moment the enemy isn't choosing because you are as the ork player. Lootas are too expensive for what little dmg they do, so you are either taking them in minimum squads which can easily be ignored or you are taking them in big 15 blobs so you can spend CP on them to increase their firepower and hopefully get some bang for your buck, and if you do that you have sunk a significant amount of points into a VERY Squishy unit.
The solution? Make lootas cheaper. SM, CSM, Imperial guard, all these factions get Autocannons as upgrades for 10pts. Why are ork boyz getting them for 12pts? Keeping in mind I think ork boyz at 8pts is too high. So that would be 17PPM (if boyz were 7pts) instead of 20, but even that is too much because again we are dealing with BS5 not BS4 nor BS3. and unlike the aforementioned factions, we don't have easy access to reroll to hits/wounds. So I would argue a DeffGun is actually closer to 8pts rather than 10. So a loota should be 15pts not 20. So 15 lootas puts you at 225 not 300. Now you can invest in 2 or 3 massive blobs of lootas and still have points left over. 3 blobs of 15 would be 675 where it used to be 900. At this point you have done what orkz NEED to do to win, flood the board with units that the enemy doesn't have enough dakka to get rid of fast enough.
Funnily enough... thats what Lootas originally were! 15ppm they havent changed 1 bit really from 4th edition to 8th edition (and until we get a Codex for 9th), so over 5 editions they have gotten 5pts more expensive whilst their comparatives have either only gotten better or gained more synergies. This is true for a lot of Ork units, we havent really changed throughout the editions, yeah Furious Charge is now baked in but our weapons and profiles are generally the same except for the vehicles/monsters and characters. Some things have gotten worse like Big Shootas who used to kill Guardsmen outright before cover saves to now letting a Guardsmen have his save unmolested if not better when benefitting from light cover. Ive said this before numerous times, Orks still feel like they are stuck a few editions in the past.
At least the skorcha had some semblance of an argument for being more expensive. It's assault instead of heavy, which is a pretty decent buff and auto-hitting weapons are just more tempting on a BS5+ platform rather than a 3+ one. The powerklaw being more expensive than a powerfist was always a slap in the face.
But I'm stoked to see what we get and actually quite hopeful. They managed to make dark eldar into a menacing blender and seemingly good army without resorting to giving them a billion defensive buffs/abilities to counteract the fact that they're a T3 army (unlike SoB).
I'm okay with most infantry orks dying in droves if they're choppy enough in CC to make up for it. Super random shooting is a bit more difficult to balance though, because if you buffs orks a fair bit and someone rolls hot then it's going to end up seeming crazy broken. So I'm actually guessing that GW are going to make orks a bit less random in regards to shooting and buff them in more conventional means. I'm sure there's going to be a couple of crazy random guns still but stuff like lootas I wouldn't be shocked if the ended up being 3 shots each and AP-2 but nothing gained in terms of durability (and possibly a minor point bump, to like 22ppm).
Do you guys have any success with the subculture, Boomboyz?
Would you run it in a single detatchment or maybe as a secondary detatchment (like a patrol or something?).
Also i cant really figure out fully from the text, but does the Supa kannon benefit from Boomboyz culture?
Id love to but its super restrictive when you think about it. To make the most of the Kultur your going to need to take as much Rokkits, Stikk(busta)bombs, Lobbas and (Kill)Kannons as you can get. Thats a pretty expensive army already just for +1str and ap on those types of weapons. It makes Stikkbombs more interesting more than the Rokkits personally, you generally dont need str9 nowadays because there isnt a lot of toughness 8 units flooding the meta except Mortarion of which your probably still gonna find it rough to punch a hole in him. With Killkannons it helps, especially Da Boomer as you are suddenly actually getting respectable ap on the damn thing. If we had more access to Lobbas that wouldnt be locked out because being Grots (stupid rule), again it would be extremely interesting their.
Ive ran it before but I tried it more for the actual Stikkbombs. We have a lot of vehicles that have Stikkbomb type weapons and literally every infantry model has one, the problem then starts to come that we need to spend a CP to let a unit chuck (a limited amount) a whole bunch, our BS is bad and grenades are pretty counter intuitive to how Orks wanna play. Advancing and charging, well you cant do that with grenades, charging in general... you have 6" of grenade range... if your charge is longer than that you aint chucking them and if you are then you probably gona extend your charge, then finally being embarked in transports, you cant use strats.... I dont find that Tankbustas struggle to kill vehicles, so really the Clan is really quite restrictive. If you want better heavy weapons then Deathskulls would literally be a better choice.
I dont think Supa Kannons benefit from it. Ill have to double check. Yeah doesnt effect Supa Kannons
Jidmah wrote: It's only one roll for the shots, so you can use a CP to re-roll it. If you want even more reliability you can use the clever spanner stratagem to get 3 shots almost all the time, and rarely, if ever, 1 shot.
The main issue IMO is AP-1 and 20 points for a model that is less survivable than a 5 point pox walker.
Can you use the command re-roll for the number of loota shots anymore? that stratagem has been turned into a short list of things you can use it for.
Can you use the command re-roll for the number of loota shots anymore? that stratagem has been turned into a short list of things you can use it for.
You can command re-roll after you have "rolled the dice to determine the number of attacks made by a weapon", which regardless of any other terminology is still what you're doing when you roll to "determine the Type characteristic" of the deffguns, so I'd say yes.
do you think its viable to play Ghaz together with a DeffkillaWartrike?
I wanted to Tellyport 30 Boys and use Elite Infantry ( MANz+ Nobs) together with Transports ( Trukks+ Bonebreaka) as an alternative to 90 Skarboys
do you think its viable to play Ghaz together with a DeffkillaWartrike? I wanted to Tellyport 30 Boys and use Elite Infantry ( MANz+ Nobs) together with Transports ( Trukks+ Bonebreaka) as an alternative to 90 Skarboys
I would say no, because what you're suggesting there is the mistake a lot of new Ork players make which is trying to mix and match units into a combined arms force when you really need target saturation of one type to have Ork lists be successful competitively. 30 Boyz, even tellyported, will basically do squat after their deep strike, which the opponent can screen so you can only charge the targets they want you to have, and they aren't guaranteed to make said charge either. If you fail that charge, they're basically dead in the water and you wasted a chunk of 240+ points. Ghaz has no real synergy with the vehicles you have since he's not as fast as them so he can't actually buff most of them or the units inside. Furthermore, the Deffkilla Wartrike is pretty much obsolete as an HQ choice atm. He's completely outclassed by the FW rules for the Warboss on Warbike who not only does more, has access to relevant relics/strats and is tougher, but he also hits a lot harder in CC. So you may as well take the Warboss on Bike instead. If you want to do mass vehicles, then you have to stick to that rather than giving him piecemeal infantry units that get chewed up.
PiñaColada wrote: At least the skorcha had some semblance of an argument for being more expensive. It's assault instead of heavy, which is a pretty decent buff and auto-hitting weapons are just more tempting on a BS5+ platform rather than a 3+ one. The powerklaw being more expensive than a powerfist was always a slap in the face.
But I'm stoked to see what we get and actually quite hopeful. They managed to make dark eldar into a menacing blender and seemingly good army without resorting to giving them a billion defensive buffs/abilities to counteract the fact that they're a T3 army (unlike SoB).
I'm okay with most infantry orks dying in droves if they're choppy enough in CC to make up for it. Super random shooting is a bit more difficult to balance though, because if you buffs orks a fair bit and someone rolls hot then it's going to end up seeming crazy broken. So I'm actually guessing that GW are going to make orks a bit less random in regards to shooting and buff them in more conventional means. I'm sure there's going to be a couple of crazy random guns still but stuff like lootas I wouldn't be shocked if the ended up being 3 shots each and AP-2 but nothing gained in terms of durability (and possibly a minor point bump, to like 22ppm).
2 things.
1: I Completely agree with you on hot rolls making people scream "ITZ BROKEN!!!!!!". I flattened a pair of Eldar Wraithknights in 7th edition with the SAG Big Mek by rolling a 12 and disintegrating them. That Eldar player rage quit and went on to demand the T.O. Ban all use of SAG because he thought it was broken good in 7th. I had people complain in 8th that the Loota bomb was just game breakingly good and surprising nobody who has played orkz for awhile, it got nerfed into the ground because it was slightly better than it should have been (mind you, only if you sunk a fethload of CP into it). Ever since Mek gunz came out, ive had people tell me they are broken and need to be nerfed into the ground as well. Basically anytime Orkz get anything remotely good at shooting people complain, usually with arguments like "Orkz are supposed to be a CC army" conveniently forgetting that their Intercessors are now Point for Point better at CC than Ork boyz.
2: If lootas get Flat 3 shots and AP-2 and go to 22ppm they will be garbage. They will be slightly better at being a glass cannon, but its becomes a game of whether or not you get to go first or not, because if you go 2nd they are dead, and 15 of them now costs you 330pts.
PiñaColada wrote: At least the skorcha had some semblance of an argument for being more expensive. It's assault instead of heavy, which is a pretty decent buff and auto-hitting weapons are just more tempting on a BS5+ platform rather than a 3+ one. The powerklaw being more expensive than a powerfist was always a slap in the face.
But I'm stoked to see what we get and actually quite hopeful. They managed to make dark eldar into a menacing blender and seemingly good army without resorting to giving them a billion defensive buffs/abilities to counteract the fact that they're a T3 army (unlike SoB).
I'm okay with most infantry orks dying in droves if they're choppy enough in CC to make up for it. Super random shooting is a bit more difficult to balance though, because if you buffs orks a fair bit and someone rolls hot then it's going to end up seeming crazy broken. So I'm actually guessing that GW are going to make orks a bit less random in regards to shooting and buff them in more conventional means. I'm sure there's going to be a couple of crazy random guns still but stuff like lootas I wouldn't be shocked if the ended up being 3 shots each and AP-2 but nothing gained in terms of durability (and possibly a minor point bump, to like 22ppm).
2 things.
1: I Completely agree with you on hot rolls making people scream "ITZ BROKEN!!!!!!". I flattened a pair of Eldar Wraithknights in 7th edition with the SAG Big Mek by rolling a 12 and disintegrating them. That Eldar player rage quit and went on to demand the T.O. Ban all use of SAG because he thought it was broken good in 7th. I had people complain in 8th that the Loota bomb was just game breakingly good and surprising nobody who has played orkz for awhile, it got nerfed into the ground because it was slightly better than it should have been (mind you, only if you sunk a fethload of CP into it). Ever since Mek gunz came out, ive had people tell me they are broken and need to be nerfed into the ground as well. Basically anytime Orkz get anything remotely good at shooting people complain, usually with arguments like "Orkz are supposed to be a CC army" conveniently forgetting that their Intercessors are now Point for Point better at CC than Ork boyz.
2: If lootas get Flat 3 shots and AP-2 and go to 22ppm they will be garbage. They will be slightly better at being a glass cannon, but its becomes a game of whether or not you get to go first or not, because if you go 2nd they are dead, and 15 of them now costs you 330pts.
It's always the grass is greener situation to be honest. Unfortunately a lot of non-Ork players don't understand how optimized you have to make most Ork lists to even have them work effectively and assume at first glance that since Orks are performing well that something must be wrong. It's that swingy nature of a lot of Ork weaponry that leaves almost bizarre PTSD trauma from a lot of players only remembering the time we've rolled double 6's for damage or the SAG, but never the double 1's or other low-rolls that are more statistically common. I think it also stems from Orks being widely seen as an NPC faction (definitely in the case for Eldar/Marines) since we're usually the counter meta rather than the meta-benchmark army, so when we come in with unconventional mono-focused lists like Green Tide or Buggy spam that deliberately ensure that some aspect of an opponent's firepower/units are wasted, they feel like we're gaming them in some way.
I find the problem with Lootas is finding a way to give them meaningful weaponry while not flat out taking up the same design space of flash gitz. I would much prefer if their weapons were closer to what Obliterators have in terms of semi-random strength, AP, and damage, while the Mekboy in the unit lets you reroll one of these dice when you roll for it.
I’m of the mind that all the extra rolling of dice for orks is partially why our army wastes so much time..
I think lootas should be an automatic 2 shots maybe 3 shots w spanner (ap -2 is fine even with current point cost)
I think goff trait should just be another hit on a 6 instead of more rolling to hit, etc
The bubblechukka should have a set -2ap, set 3 damage and 2d6str and d6 shots
Flashgitz should just be an extra hit on a 6 in shooting phase
Basically just cut down the amount of rolling we do where we can..
Wait, lootas got nerfed? The only nerf I can think of would be the change to mob up right? It's just a case that people realised that massed autocannon shots at bs5 is kinda, meh compared to what other armies could rock.
cody.d. wrote: Wait, lootas got nerfed? The only nerf I can think of would be the change to mob up right? It's just a case that people realised that massed autocannon shots at bs5 is kinda, meh compared to what other armies could rock.
I think he meant they got nerfed in the sense that grot shields were no longer cost efficient, they themselves stayed expensive and took a decent price hike from the 9th edition transition, AND that AP-1 D2 weaponry was becoming exceedingly outpaced by the arms race set by newer factions. There's so many rules now that negate the -1AP (storm shields, Salamanders trait, SoB trait, etc.) that for a long range weapon it just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. The D2 is also much less powerful now that GW is starting to slowly disseminate -1D abilities or auras into armies.
do you think its viable to play Ghaz together with a DeffkillaWartrike?
I wanted to Tellyport 30 Boys and use Elite Infantry ( MANz+ Nobs) together with Transports ( Trukks+ Bonebreaka) as an alternative to 90 Skarboys
As grimskull said, keep in mind target oversaturation. It' s a good trick how to keep your army alive.
Transports are good. Put MANz, 10boy squads and strong characters inside and mix them with buggies, mek guns, flyiers. So you put in T1 just vehicles on the table. That is fine.
Or take Ghazz and tons of boyz and maybe few cheap trukks. That is also ok.
Or do it like Andrew Penn - that is also a lot like vehicle spam (2 trukks with manz, 1 with bustas, third squad of manz camping under the building and SAGs on the roof. So opponent must kill manz first before can shoot at sags)
Spoiler:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-queensland-masters-and-end-of- year-thoughts/
Patrol: deathskulls
HQ Warboss w power klaw + kustom shoota=83pts
Relic: killa klaw.
Warlord: kunnin but brutal. Upgrade:.
Da biggest boss. -1cp
Big Mek w SAG =120pts
Troops
10x gretchin =50pts
Fast Attack
5x Stormboys including boss nob w 2 choppas =60pts
5x Stormboys including boss nob w 2 choppas =60pts
Dedicated Transport
trukk =65pts trukk =65pts trukk =65pts
Vanguard: deathskulls HQ Big Mek w SAG=120pts
Big Mek w SAG =120pts
Elites
5 meganobz, 5x double kill saws=200pts
5 meganobz, 5x double kill saws=200pts
5 meganobz, 5x double kill saws=200pts
5 kommandos including boss Nob (1x tankbusta bomb) =45pts
9 tankbustas including boss Nob=153pts
Fast Attack
3 mekatrakk scrapjets: Korkscrew (kustum job) =330pts
5 stormboys including boss nob w 2 choppas=60pts
Cp: 12-3 (vanguard) -1 (biggest boss) -1 (kustom job).
– 7cp total pre game Total points 1996
Deffkilla is actually much softer than motowarboss right now like was said before + warboss has 2-3x smaller base. That is a huge difference.
Grimskul wrote:
I would say no, because what you're suggesting there is the mistake a lot of new Ork players make which is trying to mix and match units into a combined arms force when you really need target saturation of one type to have Ork lists be successful competitively. 30 Boyz, even tellyported, will basically do squat after their deep strike, which the opponent can screen so you can only charge the targets they want you to have, and they aren't guaranteed to make said charge either. If you fail that charge, they're basically dead in the water and you wasted a chunk of 240+ points. Ghaz has no real synergy with the vehicles you have since he's not as fast as them so he can't actually buff most of them or the units inside. Furthermore, the Deffkilla Wartrike is pretty much obsolete as an HQ choice atm. He's completely outclassed by the FW rules for the Warboss on Warbike who not only does more, has access to relevant relics/strats and is tougher, but he also hits a lot harder in CC. So you may as well take the Warboss on Bike instead. If you want to do mass vehicles, then you have to stick to that rather than giving him piecemeal infantry units that get chewed up.
Tomsug wrote:
As grimskull said, keep in mind target oversaturation. It' s a good trick how to keep your army alive.
Transports are good. Put MANz, 10boy squads and strong characters inside and mix them with buggies, mek guns, flyiers. So you put in T1 just vehicles on the table. That is fine.
Or take Ghazz and tons of boyz and maybe few cheap trukks. That is also ok.
Or do it like Andrew Penn - that is also a lot like vehicle spam (2 trukks with manz, 1 with bustas, third squad of manz camping under the building and SAGs on the roof. So opponent must kill manz first before can shoot at sags)
Spoiler:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-queensland-masters-and-end-of- year-thoughts/
Patrol: deathskulls
HQ Warboss w power klaw + kustom shoota=83pts
Relic: killa klaw.
Warlord: kunnin but brutal. Upgrade:.
Da biggest boss. -1cp
Big Mek w SAG =120pts
Troops
10x gretchin =50pts
Fast Attack
5x Stormboys including boss nob w 2 choppas =60pts
5x Stormboys including boss nob w 2 choppas =60pts
Dedicated Transport
trukk =65pts trukk =65pts trukk =65pts
Vanguard: deathskulls HQ Big Mek w SAG=120pts
Big Mek w SAG =120pts
Elites
5 meganobz, 5x double kill saws=200pts
5 meganobz, 5x double kill saws=200pts
5 meganobz, 5x double kill saws=200pts
5 kommandos including boss Nob (1x tankbusta bomb) =45pts
9 tankbustas including boss Nob=153pts
Fast Attack
3 mekatrakk scrapjets: Korkscrew (kustum job) =330pts
5 stormboys including boss nob w 2 choppas=60pts
Cp: 12-3 (vanguard) -1 (biggest boss) -1 (kustom job).
– 7cp total pre game Total points 1996
Deffkilla is actually much softer than motowarboss right now like was said before + warboss has 2-3x smaller base. That is a huge difference.
Thank you both for your fast feedback and I get what you are telling me!
I have to admit that I am a little bummed out, that the Bikerboss is just so much better than the Deffkilla haha.
cody.d. wrote: Would that classify as a nerf as much as the meta moved past them? I mean, personally I did sort of shift towards tankbustas over lootas.
Kind of. They got more expensive (even in comparison to other price hikes), but lost access to many things that made them good, which is multi-clan armies, 18CP and cheap gretchin to protect them. Lootas without those things were never good to begin with, so the price hike kind of killed them. IIRC semper and me once mathhammered that a loota's shooting without stratagem or culture support is roughly worth 8-10 points, and the main argument for not doing it was that you could just bring a 200 lootas army. But now we have the rule of 3, so I see no reason to not cost them aggressively. It'd totally love being able to field all my 45 lootas again.
I also miss the times when they were elite units - but enough imperial players where whining about how they felt much more like heavy support units, so they go moved to make it impossible to use them as fire support for battlewagon or walker heavy lists like we did in 5th.
Some low hanging fruits for improving them would be to just making them cheaper again (12-14 points), make spanna weapons free and make the cleverest spanna stratagem a stock ability.
I fully agree. But during 5th and 6th this was a popular opinion among non-ork players, and it got picked up by whoever was writing the 7th edition codex, and here we are now.
It's one of the reasons why I am rather combative when it comes people spreading uninformed opinions and calling out people's BS when they talk about orks.
Guys if you use Ghaz and fight the nightbringer, which of the two rules takes priority?
His Drain life ability: Drain Life: Each time this model makes a melee attack that is allocated to an enemy model, that enemy model cannot use any rules to ignore the wounds it loses.
I'm certain I'm missing something but I can't see any FAQ that refutes it - does anyone use Mob Up for expensive units to get the most out of CP? I am pondering the use of Mob Up on 2 units of tankbustas (15/10) followed by more dakka to get 25 rokkits firing with extra hits. Same principle with lootas as well. As far as I can tell it only has to be infantry and not grots, so it can be used on any units with more than 10 in one mob.
I've also had some thoughts on using a trukk + battlewagon combo to get improved utility and mobility from big mobs - shoota boys in trukks around a couple of wagons of slugga boys, the trukk boys can then disembark around the flanks of units whilst the wagon boys go head on, then mob up a wagon squad with a trukk squad for 30 boys charging from 2 angles to surround the enemy and get the 20+ model bonus, all whilst keeping the mobility of vehicles.
So, does anyone make use of Mob Up? do you have any juicy tactics for this stratagem?
Lootas are one of the reasons i really, really hope (though i know it wont happen) they enable Orks to use stratagems in open topped vehicles.
Theyre so squishy, i want them in a transport to protect them but then they cant Show Off or Moar Dakka, and they simply are not worth it w/o burning strats on them.
It wont ever happen but i wish our non-boy models were more survivable. Unfortunately we live in a meta where high rate of fire AP0 can still melt marines so theres no way lootas/tankbustas/burnas are gonna get more survivable enough.
Beardedragon wrote: Guys if you use Ghaz and fight the nightbringer, which of the two rules takes priority?
His Drain life ability:
Drain Life: Each time this model makes a melee attack that is allocated to an enemy model, that enemy model cannot use any rules to ignore the wounds it loses.
Nightbringer wins. Unable to take more than X wounds counts as ignoring damage per the faq that dropped before such a rule even existed and we were all like "Oh great so something eventually is gonna hard counter ghaz, great" Do note though that the nightbringer's ability does NOT affect his CTan powers so he still can only take 4 from powers to the face. Drain Life is the ability that ignores ignoring wound rules and its specifically melee attacks.
He still counters Ghaz like crazy but least he cant possibly do more than 4 with powers alone. Nightbringer is designed to butcher super-powered characters after all.
Beardedragon wrote: Guys if you use Ghaz and fight the nightbringer, which of the two rules takes priority?
His Drain life ability:
Drain Life: Each time this model makes a melee attack that is allocated to an enemy model, that enemy model cannot use any rules to ignore the wounds it loses.
or our ability to only take 4 wounds per phase?
Nightbringer can one-round Thrakka as his ability to ignore wound in excess of 4 is not applied.
Yeah, as said before Nightbringer is a hard counter to Thraka so do avoid facing him if possible unless he only has 3 wounds left that you think you can knock off with Ghazzy first.
C'tan are strong, but Orks are suprisingly capable of bringing them down in one turn, particularly if you bring a buggy list since we can proc mortal wounds in the charge phase which is separate from the combat phase. So if you shoot him enough to knock 3 wounds, and then charge him with ramming speed with a scrapjet, chances are you can inflict around 2-3 mortal wounds from that and you can finish them off in CC.
C'Tan are hard to kill by stats-checking them, but rather easy when you just outplay them. You rarely face more than one, and you can always just avoid their charges and get a free turn of shooting against them before committing. Yes, they do get to keep one objective because of that, but you can just get everything else.
cody.d. wrote: Wait, lootas got nerfed? The only nerf I can think of would be the change to mob up right? It's just a case that people realised that massed autocannon shots at bs5 is kinda, meh compared to what other armies could rock.
Mob up reducing the benefit of using our shooting stratagems by 40% on lootas. Grots going up in price 66% which reduces the value of grot shields dramatically and the fact that the board is now littered with new rules/abilities from other factions which weaken Lootas effectiveness. As someone else commented, this could be considered the meta moving past lootas but the fact is that we have already had several FAQs and erratas since this trend began which means 1 of 3 things. 1: GW is waiting for our codex to update them to be useful again, 2: GW doesn't care and thinks lootas are fine where they are. and 3: GW doesn't care because MOAR SPEECE MEHREENS! can't have those silly orkz blasting the Heroes off the table right?
Being a bit sarcastic on that last one but honestly those are your options.
As jidmah and I went over before, Lootas are massively over priced and do so little dmg for their price that they are effectively useless in most competitive metas. Its rather telling that the only reason they were competitive in 8th was if you took 25 of them, used a strat to mob them up, used a strat to give them exploding 5s, used a strat to shoot a 2nd time and finally, used another strat and sacrificed a troop choice to keep them alive for more than 1 turn. And even after that MASSIVE investment your average return was 2 rounds of 50 shots for 22 hits. Against Vehicles thats 11 wounds, and against a 3+ that is 10ish dmg. So do that twice for 20dmg against 1 target or split 10 and 10. Against T8 (like a knight) it was 7 wounds and 7ish dmg on average. Tell me that sounds cost effective.
I used a Goff Ghazzy list (90 boyz, 8 MANZ, some big choppa Nobz big choppa, kommandoes, banner, painboy, big Mek in mega armor with KFF) and didnt know he had a Ctan, i just thought he might but i wouldnt let that deter me from using my list. Thats why i asked about which power takes priority to be sure. I can feel that i really need those damn Mek Gunz to do my Goff list properly and then ditch the Nobz. Although i accidentially suicided the Nobz with da Jump to take off 3 wounds off the nightbringer, the Nobz actually could pay themselves back in points, if i had used more hits on his spyders (i da jumped and engaged a chronomancer, Spyders and nightbringer. got nightbringer down 3 wounds, killed chronomancer (which got up afterwards) and killed 1 spyder). I dedicated too many hits for the nightbringer, i should've focused more on spyders. If i had i think i could take them all down and that would have been worth it but i was an idiot.
Looking back almost instantly there was plenty of room to da jump my boyz so i have no idea why i didnt do that. Im a melon.
My list does not have Mek Gunz as i only have 1 Mek gun currently so i had no reliable way of dealing damage to him in the shooting nor psychic phase (warphead --> Da jump, Warpath). I was also unprepared for him.. pre moving 6 inches, which meant a lot of scarabs ended up in MY face by turn 1. Ive seen it before, but i forgot about it.
But dealing with the nightbringer was difficult. eventually he went for ghaz and ghaz was lucky to have 1 wound left. I can see how he doesnt HAVE to be difficult to deal with. But with my setup, he was. As you guys says, maybe some shooting here and there ( i mean he does only have 9 wounds so taking 3 wounds off per phase is.. doable) and maybe tie him up. I can see it being managable with the right tools. I just didnt have them (and what i did have, i couldnt utilize properly as i had never faced something like the nightbringer before)).
The nightbringer died after though. I smacked him with my waaagh banner.
I could have won the match i think but i made some errors. And i also failed a super important 7 inch charge rofl (rolled 5, rerolled both to double 1s..).
Hi Beardedragon. Have you considered converting Mek Gunz? One Trukk kit + one Mek Gun kit = 4 x Mek Gunz. The process is relatively painless, and is on several You Tube videos :-)
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, as said before Nightbringer is a hard counter to Thraka so do avoid facing him if possible unless he only has 3 wounds left that you think you can knock off with Ghazzy first.
C'tan are strong, but Orks are suprisingly capable of bringing them down in one turn, particularly if you bring a buggy list since we can proc mortal wounds in the charge phase which is separate from the combat phase. So if you shoot him enough to knock 3 wounds, and then charge him with ramming speed with a scrapjet, chances are you can inflict around 2-3 mortal wounds from that and you can finish them off in CC.
Don' t forget you can deal another 3MW in movement by the Burna Bommer.
The fact is, I really don' t have a problem with such models with my buggy list at all. Mostly I found I' ve faced some mega beast on the end from the comments. There was some Mortarion guy. Have you heard about him? Died turn 2 after killing one scrapjet. Not a big deal. Now Ctan. Well.... before you start speaking about him here, I had no clue it' s some super nasty guy. I killed him before he did something in last few weeks couple of times. Well... I always beat these necron like a hell, but I suppose, the problem was maybe in the players. At least one of them looks like he has not so much ideas what is he doing.
Melta sisters with 36” range makes me much bigger headache. Or Castelans. They seems to have almost enough dakka... Fortunately, these can be solved by better maneuvering. Generally I don' t face the models with stats that are the problem. If I face the problem, it' s the clever opponent that use his units right.
There was Deathwing guy with 3 squads of terminators and some 12” Deepstrike denyies Infiltrators. We' ve played Priority targets mission and he took Priority Target, WWSWF on terminators and Bring it down. And parked his terminators behind LOS blocks close to his 2 objectives and covered them by Infiltrators. So he can just sit and wait and do nothing = 40VP for primaries and 30 VP for first two secondaries. I had to drive over the whole field to him and try to kill his termies in CC. He beated me horribly. In fact he defeated me before the game, because I haven' t see his plan and took Scramblers which I had in fact no chance to do anytime and with Engage, it makes me to come to him.
If I take Domination and WWSWF, it would make him out of his bunkers maybe. Clever guy.....
Moriarty wrote: Hi Beardedragon. Have you considered converting Mek Gunz? One Trukk kit + one Mek Gun kit = 4 x Mek Gunz. The process is relatively painless, and is on several You Tube videos :-)
i have heard of them but not seen them, and its on my to do list. I have 4 Grot tanks i intend to turn in to Mek Gunz, but im having a hard time procuring 4 barrels that can act as the cannons. I dont want to use those tiny cannons that already come with the Grot tanks.
I have heard about the truk and mek gun idea, but i dont see how i should get 4 kannon barrels out of that as theres only 1 barrel that comes with the Mek Gun package. Sure there are several attack "heads" but as i remember, only one barrel. But i definitely need to watch those youtube videos.
In any case, i inteded to find 4 barrels somewhere first, and some other material, and then id convert my 4 grot tanks to Mek Gunz first. But yea.. i have a hard time finding long Mek Gun barrels.
Mek Gun conversion - trukk+mekgun conversion does not work to my satisfaction.
1. You don' t produce 4 smashguns, which should be the point of this procedure.
2. I haven' t seen conversions nice enought.
I have a better method in my head. You need for 1 smashgun:
1 x Smaller spark plug for the barrel
2 x wheels or tracks
Plastic card
“Rivets” (sand, “nail diamonds”, brita filters or what ever)
Wires
Bits from various ork vehicles.
Make a chassis, put the spark plug on it, make a smashgun tip from the plastic card.
True. I dont want the bubblechucka head. I am satisfied mostly with things that look like the tractor head or the smasha head, as both look identical a lot of the way.
Maybe the kustom mega kannon head.
The problem for me never was to make bodies or chassies, just the barrels really.
Edit: looking up the mek gun - truk conversions, i dont like them that much either. Even if its a cheap way to get them, they dont look good enough imo for the standard i want.
But im not interested in buying whole models right now, i want to convert my Grot tanks i got from Kromlech (for free luckily). So i need energy looking barrels, not entire models.
I am currently, as we speak right now, kit bashing my 2 battle wagons alternative cannon for barrels where i slam a traktor kannon head on one, and maybe a KMB head on the other so thats 2 grot tanks i can make in to mek Gunz, now i just need a barrel looking thing for the remaining 2 tanks.
I think ill "smasha gunnify" the kustom mega kannon head to look more like a smasha gun though. Maybe ill green stuff a ball or something and put on the end as smasha guns have balls they shoot out of.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Beardragon - barrel = sparkplug.
I'm gonna use it on the ZagZap ond Kustom Mega Zappa.
Morkanoauts main weapons seems to be underscale imho...
sparkplugs?
hmm. that could surprisingly well work. But ive never kitbashed anything non plastic. I wonder how well a metallic sparkplug would sit on a resin grot tank.
On one hand im trying to put magnets on my Grot tanks so that i can always take off the "mek Gunz" but on the other hand i wonder if ill ever use normal grot tanks. It would be easier to glue this gak on but what if i wanna use normal grot tanks. then ive ruined that chance by gluing on. So many thoughts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is a complete side point but i find it kind of annoying that the gargantuan Squiggoth dont actually have 2 different attack profiles. That it cant deal with minor infantry. The same goes for Ghaz really. why does he only have 1 attack profile? At least Ghaz i hope gets an update in the codex to have 2 attack profiles.
But im not interested in buying whole models right now, i want to convert my Grot tanks i got from Kromlech (for free luckily). So i need energy looking barrels, not entire models.
I am currently, as we speak right now, kit bashing my 2 battle wagons alternative cannon for barrels where i slam a traktor kannon head on one, and maybe a KMB head on the other so thats 2 grot tanks i can make in to mek Gunz, now i just need a barrel looking thing for the remaining 2 tanks.
I think ill "smasha gunnify" the kustom mega kannon head to look more like a smasha gun though. Maybe ill green stuff a ball or something and put on the end as smasha guns have balls they shoot out of.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Beardragon - barrel = sparkplug.
I'm gonna use it on the ZagZap ond Kustom Mega Zappa.
Morkanoauts main weapons seems to be underscale imho...
sparkplugs?
hmm. that could surprisingly well work. But ive never kitbashed anything non plastic. I wonder how well a metallic sparkplug would sit on a resin grot tank.
On one hand im trying to put magnets on my Grot tanks so that i can always take off the "mek Gunz" but on the other hand i wonder if ill ever use normal grot tanks. It would be easier to glue this gak on but what if i wanna use normal grot tanks. then ive ruined that chance by gluing on. So many thoughts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is a complete side point but i find it kind of annoying that the gargantuan Squiggoth dont actually have 2 different attack profiles. That it cant deal with minor infantry.
The same goes for Ghaz really. why does he only have 1 attack profile? At least Ghaz i hope gets an update in the codex to have 2 attack profiles.
Yeah its always bugged me. The Squiggoth of either size should have a stomp profile. But instead it has to use its tusks for everything.
But im not interested in buying whole models right now, i want to convert my Grot tanks i got from Kromlech (for free luckily). So i need energy looking barrels, not entire models.
I am currently, as we speak right now, kit bashing my 2 battle wagons alternative cannon for barrels where i slam a traktor kannon head on one, and maybe a KMB head on the other so thats 2 grot tanks i can make in to mek Gunz, now i just need a barrel looking thing for the remaining 2 tanks.
I think ill "smasha gunnify" the kustom mega kannon head to look more like a smasha gun though. Maybe ill green stuff a ball or something and put on the end as smasha guns have balls they shoot out of.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Beardragon - barrel = sparkplug.
I'm gonna use it on the ZagZap ond Kustom Mega Zappa.
Morkanoauts main weapons seems to be underscale imho...
sparkplugs?
hmm. that could surprisingly well work. But ive never kitbashed anything non plastic. I wonder how well a metallic sparkplug would sit on a resin grot tank.
On one hand im trying to put magnets on my Grot tanks so that i can always take off the "mek Gunz" but on the other hand i wonder if ill ever use normal grot tanks. It would be easier to glue this gak on but what if i wanna use normal grot tanks. then ive ruined that chance by gluing on. So many thoughts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is a complete side point but i find it kind of annoying that the gargantuan Squiggoth dont actually have 2 different attack profiles. That it cant deal with minor infantry.
The same goes for Ghaz really. why does he only have 1 attack profile? At least Ghaz i hope gets an update in the codex to have 2 attack profiles.
Yeah its always bugged me. The Squiggoth of either size should have a stomp profile. But instead it has to use its tusks for everything.
indeed. As always, its lazy writing by GW and FW or who ever writes the rules for FW.
This list is painful to look at. It obviously worked though, so kudos to them for piloting such an odd (when we consider "good" lists to look like) list.
Good Games Maitland yeah? I was tempted to go to that, it's fairly close to home. But the killtanks are still being worked on. Shame, sounds like it was a blast and that orks did relatively well for themselves.
So I'm facing against a Craftworld Eldar army soon and I'm expecting a lot of Shining Spears and Dark Reapers, given they're basically the workhorses of the army at this point. I have the following list right now below:
Spoiler:
Ork Deffskullz 2000 point list:
Total CP: 12 - 6 = 6 CP
Deffskullz Patrol Detachment - 1470
HQ - 115
Warboss on Warbike with Killa Klaw, The Biggest Boss Warlord Trait: Brutal but Kunnin - 115
Troops - 90
10 Ork Boyz, Nob with Kombi-Rokkit - 90
Fast Attack - 660
3 Megatrakk Scrapjets with Korkscrew - 330
3 Shokkdrump Dragstas with Gyroscopic Whirlygig - 330
3 Kustom Boosta Blastas with Squig Hyde Tyres - 270
Deffkopta with Kopta Rokkits - 35
Heavy Support - 85
Big Trakk - 85
The plan is to go for While We Stand We Fight for the Dragstas, Scrapjets and the Mek Gunz as one of my secondaries, since I'm fairly confident that my Mek Gunz and Dragstas should survive till the end of the game for a good 10 VP. I'm probably going for Engage on All Fronts which is why I have the lone Deffkopta as a way of scoring it T1. Kommandos are there to drop in on subsequent turns and attempt to grab objectives. I'm not sure if I should attempt deploy scramblers given my limited number of infantry. Also, do you think the squig hyde tyres are worth it on the KBB? I find that the extra 2" makes a difference for the flamers and allow them to make space for my scrapjets to get stuck in. Though I'm also up for not giving them a kustom job to save a bit on CP. The burna bommer is there to commit sudoku against the backline of reapers ideally so I'll try to hide him in the corner of terrain, though this is my first time using it so any advice on setting them up during deployment would be great.
Grimskul wrote: What an absolute madlad, props to him for going for a full crazy kamikaze mad max list.
Well, it' s in fact very defensible list. All of his units have -1 to hit, a lot of invu, Snazzwagon strategem aka “grotshield on the bumper”.
Plus the fact, he push equivalent of 9 smashagunz (3 x wazboom = 9 x smashgunz) over enemies head to make him care about potentially kamikadze heavy artelery instead of his snazzwagonz on objective, this is also pretty “defensible”.
And the spam of 5/-2/1 shooting againts obsec troops in combination of large ammount of 10 boyz obsec squads.... it' s little more than just kamikadze.
I think, this is not the top tier ork list and his 3rd position comes from different reasons than just a list, but it is definitelly very interesting and clever.
Regarding the Kustom Stompa... to cast the evil sunz visionz spell for rerolling all hits on it - am I right in understanding that it needs to be in a Super Heavy detachment with another two LOWs (probably two killtanks) to give it the evil sunz keyword? Cheers
Grimskul wrote: So I'm facing against a Craftworld Eldar army soon and I'm expecting a lot of Shining Spears and Dark Reapers, given they're basically the workhorses of the army at this point. I have the following list right now below:
Spoiler:
Ork Deffskullz 2000 point list:
Total CP: 12 - 6 = 6 CP
Deffskullz Patrol Detachment - 1470
HQ - 115
Warboss on Warbike with Killa Klaw, The Biggest Boss
Warlord Trait: Brutal but Kunnin - 115
Troops - 90
10 Ork Boyz, Nob with Kombi-Rokkit - 90
Fast Attack - 660
3 Megatrakk Scrapjets with Korkscrew - 330
3 Shokkdrump Dragstas with Gyroscopic Whirlygig - 330
3 Kustom Boosta Blastas with Squig Hyde Tyres - 270
Deffkopta with Kopta Rokkits - 35
Heavy Support - 85
Big Trakk - 85
The plan is to go for While We Stand We Fight for the Dragstas, Scrapjets and the Mek Gunz as one of my secondaries, since I'm fairly confident that my Mek Gunz and Dragstas should survive till the end of the game for a good 10 VP. I'm probably going for Engage on All Fronts which is why I have the lone Deffkopta as a way of scoring it T1. Kommandos are there to drop in on subsequent turns and attempt to grab objectives. I'm not sure if I should attempt deploy scramblers given my limited number of infantry. Also, do you think the squig hyde tyres are worth it on the KBB? I find that the extra 2" makes a difference for the flamers and allow them to make space for my scrapjets to get stuck in. Though I'm also up for not giving them a kustom job to save a bit on CP. The burna bommer is there to commit sudoku against the backline of reapers ideally so I'll try to hide him in the corner of terrain, though this is my first time using it so any advice on setting them up during deployment would be great.
Im not so sure WWSWF is a good pick vs Eldar especially with Shining Spears and Dark Reapers. They will have the speed and fire power to take down the buggies no matter where they are if they do have shining spears.
Grimskul wrote: So I'm facing against a Craftworld Eldar army soon and I'm expecting a lot of Shining Spears and Dark Reapers, given they're basically the workhorses of the army at this point. I have the following list right now below:
Spoiler:
Ork Deffskullz 2000 point list:
Total CP: 12 - 6 = 6 CP
Deffskullz Patrol Detachment - 1470
HQ - 115
Warboss on Warbike with Killa Klaw, The Biggest Boss
Warlord Trait: Brutal but Kunnin - 115
Troops - 90
10 Ork Boyz, Nob with Kombi-Rokkit - 90
Fast Attack - 660
3 Megatrakk Scrapjets with Korkscrew - 330
3 Shokkdrump Dragstas with Gyroscopic Whirlygig - 330
3 Kustom Boosta Blastas with Squig Hyde Tyres - 270
Deffkopta with Kopta Rokkits - 35
Heavy Support - 85
Big Trakk - 85
The plan is to go for While We Stand We Fight for the Dragstas, Scrapjets and the Mek Gunz as one of my secondaries, since I'm fairly confident that my Mek Gunz and Dragstas should survive till the end of the game for a good 10 VP. I'm probably going for Engage on All Fronts which is why I have the lone Deffkopta as a way of scoring it T1. Kommandos are there to drop in on subsequent turns and attempt to grab objectives. I'm not sure if I should attempt deploy scramblers given my limited number of infantry. Also, do you think the squig hyde tyres are worth it on the KBB? I find that the extra 2" makes a difference for the flamers and allow them to make space for my scrapjets to get stuck in. Though I'm also up for not giving them a kustom job to save a bit on CP. The burna bommer is there to commit sudoku against the backline of reapers ideally so I'll try to hide him in the corner of terrain, though this is my first time using it so any advice on setting them up during deployment would be great.
Im not so sure WWSWF is a good pick vs Eldar especially with Shining Spears and Dark Reapers. They will have the speed and fire power to take down the buggies no matter where they are if they do have shining spears.
That's fair, in that case then, what other secondaries do you think would go well with this list? Besides Engage on All Fronts, I can only think of Deploy Scramblers? Secondaries are generally a tough call for Orks.
Grimskul wrote: So I'm facing against a Craftworld Eldar army soon and I'm expecting a lot of Shining Spears and Dark Reapers, given they're basically the workhorses of the army at this point. I have the following list right now below:
Spoiler:
Ork Deffskullz 2000 point list:
Total CP: 12 - 6 = 6 CP
Deffskullz Patrol Detachment - 1470
HQ - 115
Warboss on Warbike with Killa Klaw, The Biggest Boss
Warlord Trait: Brutal but Kunnin - 115
Troops - 90
10 Ork Boyz, Nob with Kombi-Rokkit - 90
Fast Attack - 660
3 Megatrakk Scrapjets with Korkscrew - 330
3 Shokkdrump Dragstas with Gyroscopic Whirlygig - 330
3 Kustom Boosta Blastas with Squig Hyde Tyres - 270
Deffkopta with Kopta Rokkits - 35
Heavy Support - 85
Big Trakk - 85
The plan is to go for While We Stand We Fight for the Dragstas, Scrapjets and the Mek Gunz as one of my secondaries, since I'm fairly confident that my Mek Gunz and Dragstas should survive till the end of the game for a good 10 VP. I'm probably going for Engage on All Fronts which is why I have the lone Deffkopta as a way of scoring it T1. Kommandos are there to drop in on subsequent turns and attempt to grab objectives. I'm not sure if I should attempt deploy scramblers given my limited number of infantry. Also, do you think the squig hyde tyres are worth it on the KBB? I find that the extra 2" makes a difference for the flamers and allow them to make space for my scrapjets to get stuck in. Though I'm also up for not giving them a kustom job to save a bit on CP. The burna bommer is there to commit sudoku against the backline of reapers ideally so I'll try to hide him in the corner of terrain, though this is my first time using it so any advice on setting them up during deployment would be great.
Im not so sure WWSWF is a good pick vs Eldar especially with Shining Spears and Dark Reapers. They will have the speed and fire power to take down the buggies no matter where they are if they do have shining spears.
That's fair, in that case then, what other secondaries do you think would go well with this list? Besides Engage on All Fronts, I can only think of Deploy Scramblers? Secondaries are generally a tough call for Orks.
It wouldn't take alot to change the two patrols into a single battalion, you'd probs have to lose out on the lone kopta I guess (moving down to 3 FA slots). But gaining 2 cp is probably worth?
Anyway, as for your secondaries linebreaker would be easy to get, you have so many fast units.
Grimskul wrote: So I'm facing against a Craftworld Eldar army soon and I'm expecting a lot of Shining Spears and Dark Reapers, given they're basically the workhorses of the army at this point. I have the following list right now below:
Spoiler:
Ork Deffskullz 2000 point list:
Total CP: 12 - 6 = 6 CP
Deffskullz Patrol Detachment - 1470
HQ - 115
Warboss on Warbike with Killa Klaw, The Biggest Boss
Warlord Trait: Brutal but Kunnin - 115
Troops - 90
10 Ork Boyz, Nob with Kombi-Rokkit - 90
Fast Attack - 660
3 Megatrakk Scrapjets with Korkscrew - 330
3 Shokkdrump Dragstas with Gyroscopic Whirlygig - 330
3 Kustom Boosta Blastas with Squig Hyde Tyres - 270
Deffkopta with Kopta Rokkits - 35
Heavy Support - 85
Big Trakk - 85
The plan is to go for While We Stand We Fight for the Dragstas, Scrapjets and the Mek Gunz as one of my secondaries, since I'm fairly confident that my Mek Gunz and Dragstas should survive till the end of the game for a good 10 VP. I'm probably going for Engage on All Fronts which is why I have the lone Deffkopta as a way of scoring it T1. Kommandos are there to drop in on subsequent turns and attempt to grab objectives. I'm not sure if I should attempt deploy scramblers given my limited number of infantry. Also, do you think the squig hyde tyres are worth it on the KBB? I find that the extra 2" makes a difference for the flamers and allow them to make space for my scrapjets to get stuck in. Though I'm also up for not giving them a kustom job to save a bit on CP. The burna bommer is there to commit sudoku against the backline of reapers ideally so I'll try to hide him in the corner of terrain, though this is my first time using it so any advice on setting them up during deployment would be great.
Im not so sure WWSWF is a good pick vs Eldar especially with Shining Spears and Dark Reapers. They will have the speed and fire power to take down the buggies no matter where they are if they do have shining spears.
That's fair, in that case then, what other secondaries do you think would go well with this list? Besides Engage on All Fronts, I can only think of Deploy Scramblers? Secondaries are generally a tough call for Orks.
It wouldn't take alot to change the two patrols into a single battalion, you'd probs have to lose out on the lone kopta I guess (moving down to 3 FA slots). But gaining 2 cp is probably worth?
Anyway, as for your secondaries linebreaker would be easy to get, you have so many fast units.
I can't take engage on all fronts and linebreaker at the same time. Also, I'd prefer the two patrols simply because then I don't need to take another troops choice as a tax.
Sluggaloo wrote: Regarding the Kustom Stompa... to cast the evil sunz visionz spell for rerolling all hits on it - am I right in understanding that it needs to be in a Super Heavy detachment with another two LOWs (probably two killtanks) to give it the evil sunz keyword? Cheers
No-to gain the Evil Sunz Kulture, you need two other Lords Of War.
But even in an Auxiliary detachment, it still has the Evil Sunz keyword, so is eligible for Visions In The Smoke. (I think that's the power's name.)
Sluggaloo wrote: Regarding the Kustom Stompa... to cast the evil sunz visionz spell for rerolling all hits on it - am I right in understanding that it needs to be in a Super Heavy detachment with another two LOWs (probably two killtanks) to give it the evil sunz keyword? Cheers
No-to gain the Evil Sunz Kulture, you need two other Lords Of War.
But even in an Auxiliary detachment, it still has the Evil Sunz keyword, so is eligible for Visions In The Smoke. (I think that's the power's name.)
Yup. All you need is the keyword, so there's no point in taking a SHV detachment, you should just take the auxiliary one to save on points and CP.
This might be s dumb ass question, but when using the smasha gun, do you roll 2d6 for each hit roll that hits or just One 2d6 for the strength of all hit rolls?
Also is there a situation in which you would prefer either traktor kannons or kustom mega kannons over smasha guns?
Traktors arent that great, kinda pricy for 1 hit even if it autohits and auto explodes flying targets. Kustom Mega Kannons are fine if you dont want to shell out for the sheer amount of Smashas, since theyre point for point only a little bit less efficient in the damage department and of course 1 model vs 2 so easier to remove than smashas. Often people refer to them as "budget smashas" in terms of real life $$$ rather than points.
As for the Smasha, you roll it for each hit. Remember that attacks are technically done one at a time so if you had 2 shots you would technically roll 1 die to hit, roll 2d6 to wound instead of normal wounding rules, and the target would roll a save. Then you roll the 2nd hit. For obvious reasons unless you need to keep track of who is shooting (rolls of 1 kills/wounds the model for instance) people just bulk roll to speed it up drastically. Bulk rolling smashas you'd need multicolored dice or have to do the wounding part one at a time so you dont lose track what 2D6 were a pair.
I mean, tractor may have had more leeway last edition as facing Eldar flyers with -2 or -3 to hit would have been somewhat standard. But now that it caps out at -1 it does kill some of the lustre tractors have. Smashagunz just feel better in pretty much every situation.
And yeah as VH said, smashagunz don't have a str value and don't actually make a wound roll. So for each hit roll you need to roll 2D6 vs the targets T stat to successfully wound. This also lets you dodge any wound roll modifiers or other rules.
Buuut, this could all change in a few months as we're like what? 3rd in line for a codex if the recent teases are any judge.
I feel like they might be making some of the D6 damage weapons into D3+3 damage instead similar to how Dark Lances were buffed, so that might be one change for example to make KMK more appealing compared to just spamming smashas. Not as sure for what they'll do for traktors or bubblechukkas though.
I'd be willing to bet that at the very least the naut's klaw of gork will be given 3+d3 if not better. But yeah, it's a rather interesting speculation on what the weirder Mek weapons will become.
Okay, random idea just popped into my mind. Bubblechucka would be a great support "weapon" little to no damage, but as the forcefield bubble hits something with an invul it could mess with abilities as the forcefield's collide and short out. A debuff gun, an EMP launcher essentially.
cody.d. wrote: I'd be willing to bet that at the very least the naut's klaw of gork will be given 3+d3 if not better. But yeah, it's a rather interesting speculation on what the weirder Mek weapons will become.
Okay, random idea just popped into my mind. Bubblechucka would be a great support "weapon" little to no damage, but as the forcefield bubble hits something with an invul it could mess with abilities as the forcefield's collide and short out. A debuff gun, an EMP launcher essentially.
That would be a nice alternate take instead of just RANDUMB stats that basically no one will take because of how swingy it is. Reducing an enemy unit's invuln (or save in general) or causing some negative modifier to movement would be a cool way of adding more options to our army than just more variations of killiness.
Really all orks have that make sense to be D3+3 is Naut melee, KMZ, and KMK. Naut melee at minimum definitely is gonna happen since Megadread melee is already that. But, Necrons got shafted with that so possible the naut melee is all we get. None of the doomsday weapons make sense to remain D6 damage, yet 2 of their 3 are still D6. Funny part is its the doomscythe's thats d3+3, not the giant freaking cannon on the doomsday ark lol
cody.d. wrote: I'd be willing to bet that at the very least the naut's klaw of gork will be given 3+d3 if not better. But yeah, it's a rather interesting speculation on what the weirder Mek weapons will become.
Okay, random idea just popped into my mind. Bubblechucka would be a great support "weapon" little to no damage, but as the forcefield bubble hits something with an invul it could mess with abilities as the forcefield's collide and short out. A debuff gun, an EMP launcher essentially.
That would be a nice alternate take instead of just RANDUMB stats that basically no one will take because of how swingy it is. Reducing an enemy unit's invuln (or save in general) or causing some negative modifier to movement would be a cool way of adding more options to our army than just more variations of killiness.
Do you reckon that GW is a little shy about weapons that "tag" an enemy with a debuff of late? They used to have it with a few Rad or stasis weapons for the imperials here and there. But recently it only seems to be on some spells. Just thinking it's a mechanic that can be used here and there.
cody.d. wrote: I'd be willing to bet that at the very least the naut's klaw of gork will be given 3+d3 if not better. But yeah, it's a rather interesting speculation on what the weirder Mek weapons will become.
Okay, random idea just popped into my mind. Bubblechucka would be a great support "weapon" little to no damage, but as the forcefield bubble hits something with an invul it could mess with abilities as the forcefield's collide and short out. A debuff gun, an EMP launcher essentially.
That would be a nice alternate take instead of just RANDUMB stats that basically no one will take because of how swingy it is. Reducing an enemy unit's invuln (or save in general) or causing some negative modifier to movement would be a cool way of adding more options to our army than just more variations of killiness.
Do you reckon that GW is a little shy about weapons that "tag" an enemy with a debuff of late? They used to have it with a few Rad or stasis weapons for the imperials here and there. But recently it only seems to be on some spells. Just thinking it's a mechanic that can be used here and there.
I think they've definitely toned down on stuff like TFC with their strat grounding entire armies, so I guess it depends on how much they actually want to make some of the Ork weapons more interesting beyond stat changes.
cody.d. wrote: Do you reckon that GW is a little shy about weapons that "tag" an enemy with a debuff of late? They used to have it with a few Rad or stasis weapons for the imperials here and there. But recently it only seems to be on some spells. Just thinking it's a mechanic that can be used here and there.
Those kind of things are limited to powers and stratagems now. I'm not a huge fan of all the bookkeeping necessary to handle debuffs from shooting/fighting. People barely mange to properly mark their stratagems and powers.
Would you rather deploy an Evil Sunz Gorkanaut out from Tellyporta or use it as a T1 charge arrow w/ Wartrike? I feel the Tellyporta would better guard it from shooting (and thus bracketing), but I've had pretty bad experience with deepstriking this edition.
Jidmah wrote: Depends on the terrain. If there are clear pathes to objectives or the enemy deployment zone, you can deploy it, but you should have a KFF near it.
Otherwise, deep striking is the only option, but don't be shy to hold it till turn 3 if you can't find a good spot in turn 2.
Thanks! Both ways seem to eat resources. Might as well consider Kunnin' but brutal for the Bikerboss to further help the Naut to survive if I decide to deploy it normally.
I decided to return to Evil Sunz after just finishing a 6-game league with Deathskulls. I have to say playing with them gets kinda annoying and gamey rather fast. I like obsec infantry, but beside that their Klan rules haven't got much cool-factor and they slow the game down. All my opponents were nice and patient, but I could feel most of them couldn't really follow all those single re-rolls and the army-wide 6++ brings little pleasure to either players. But I'm rather positive with my hopes about the next codex. If they are planning to highlight the Snakebite units more, that probably means better army-wide melee. And that means more utility for my fast boyz.
I think, the army should be ready to play more than one set of secondaries. The more and more I play, the more I see the huge difference between the mission. Priority Targets or even Overrun tend very much to camping and defend, that makes Scramblers or Linebreaker hard to achieve.
Triangular deploy with mission specific on Priority targets make Engage hard to achieve.
On the other side, Sweap and Clear or Battle Lines are born to be Engage/Linebreaker easy.
Don' t even speak about Vital inteligence or The Scouring, that makes some armies simply abandon their deploy. Which makes Secondaries like Scramblers even more important, because they make opponent to keep units screening back to block you.
AarresaariAarre wrote: Would you rather deploy an Evil Sunz Gorkanaut out from Tellyporta or use it as a T1 charge arrow w/ Wartrike? I feel the Tellyporta would better guard it from shooting (and thus bracketing), but I've had pretty bad experience with deepstriking this edition.
interesting post. Because i often run Evil sunz with the intend of charging T1 with my Gorkanaut and i too dont know if it would be better to use Deepstrike instead. I tend to just charge T1 with an extra gubbinz rezmekkas redder armor on my big mek with KFF who is inside the gork for +1 movement + Orkymatic pistons. The problem with advancing and charging is that you dont get to fire your Deffstorm mega shoota. Maybe i should try deepstriking more than doing turn 1 charges with the gorkanaut. That way you dont pay 340 points for a model that dont get to fire its iconic weapon.
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Vineheart01 wrote: Traktors arent that great, kinda pricy for 1 hit even if it autohits and auto explodes flying targets. Kustom Mega Kannons are fine if you dont want to shell out for the sheer amount of Smashas, since theyre point for point only a little bit less efficient in the damage department and of course 1 model vs 2 so easier to remove than smashas. Often people refer to them as "budget smashas" in terms of real life $$$ rather than points.
As for the Smasha, you roll it for each hit. Remember that attacks are technically done one at a time so if you had 2 shots you would technically roll 1 die to hit, roll 2d6 to wound instead of normal wounding rules, and the target would roll a save. Then you roll the 2nd hit. For obvious reasons unless you need to keep track of who is shooting (rolls of 1 kills/wounds the model for instance) people just bulk roll to speed it up drastically. Bulk rolling smashas you'd need multicolored dice or have to do the wounding part one at a time so you dont lose track what 2D6 were a pair.
but what if you get a dakka dakka? Does that dakka dakka use the same strength as the hit roll that produced the dakka? Given that if you have 1 attack, and that 1 attack makes 2 hit rolls (its normal hit roll + dakka dakka hit roll) you still only made 1 attack but produced 2 hit rolls. So is it 2D6 strength per attack or per hit roll?
If the result is equal to or greater than the target’s Toughness characteristic, the attack successfully wounds."The attack".
A hit roll as i understand is not an attack, as an attack is an entire attack sequence within which a hit roll is a part of. Which is the same reason you still get Dakka Dakka on a tank busta bomb squig. Because it dies after its attack, but a dakka dakka is not an attack but an extra hit roll. Sure you treat extra hit rolls as attacks, but that doesnt mean they are attacks. So as i read it for Mek Gun Smasha Gunz, you should make 2D6 strength roll per attack, and the dakka dakka that tied to that attack uses the same strength. Because again, its an extra hit roll but not an attack on its own.
So if you get 3 attacks on your D3 numbers of shots and you roll a 4, 5 and a 6 (which generates an extra hit roll and is a 4 as well), as i see it, you still only make 3 2D6 rolls.
2D6 for the 4 2D6 for the 5 2D6 for the 6 and its extra hit roll of 4
“Instead of making a wound roll for this weapon, roll 2D6. If the result is equal to or greater than the target’s Toughness characteristic, the attack successfully wounds.”
Which btw. means, that Deathskull Wazboom CANNOT reroll this roll, because it' s not a wound roll.
So you roll for a hit. Dakka dakka? No problem, another hit roll, roll it.
And than for every sucesfull hit you roll 2D6. What is equal or higher than target T = wound.
I do not recommend the fast rolling, because of the D6dmg, so it' s pretty clever to know, what is still alive, before you declare the shooting of another smashgun.
Tomsug wrote: I think, the army should be ready to play more than one set of secondaries. The more and more I play, the more I see the huge difference between the mission. Priority Targets or even Overrun tend very much to camping and defend, that makes Scramblers or Linebreaker hard to achieve.
Triangular deploy with mission specific on Priority targets make Engage hard to achieve.
On the other side, Sweap and Clear or Battle Lines are born to be Engage/Linebreaker easy.
Don' t even speak about Vital inteligence or The Scouring, that makes some armies simply abandon their deploy. Which makes Secondaries like Scramblers even more important, because they make opponent to keep units screening back to block you.
So very true. Instead of obsessing over the killyest synergy in the lists, strategize on how to pick the right secondaries for the scenario. Or even, build your army with the secondary VPs in mind first and worry about the synergy after. There´s a ton of ways to beat or shoot the enemy dead, but it´s much easier to wrong foot yourself and lose VP because you didn´t have the right unit at the right place at the right time.
E.g. both Necrons and Drukhari have secondaries on the gist "Clear table quarter(s) from enemies each eot (2VP/each)". One interpretation on this suggests that if I ignore the opponents half of the table I can amass forces on my side for easier access to vp. That decided I can start favouring slower but more agressive units because I don´t need to cross the midboard. Hence the decision on secondary informed me on unit choices. Had I done the reverse I might have ended up with some units that ran across the board for no real vp. Although it was entertaining, it was moot VP-wise.
I banged out my first Ork army list yesterday and am cleaning up my errors as I made several. Small oversites and whatnot.
What I am struggling with is Ork boys.
I feel like 9th doesn't want me to put Orks in my Ork army. An Ork player I know says it's Boys before toys again but I'm just not seeing it yet.
So my question is how few is too few when it comes to boys on foot? is 15 or 20 too few?
Are quad weapons worth putting in the Boys mobs? I stopped doing that in 5th.
Tomsug wrote: Smashguns does NOT have a 2D6 strength.
They do not even roll to wound.
“Instead of making a wound roll for this weapon, roll 2D6. If the result is equal to or greater than the target’s Toughness characteristic, the attack successfully wounds.”
Which btw. means, that Deathskull Wazboom CANNOT reroll this roll, because it' s not a wound roll.
So you roll for a hit. Dakka dakka? No problem, another hit roll, roll it.
And than for every sucesfull hit you roll 2D6. What is equal or higher than target T = wound.
I do not recommend the fast rolling, because of the D6dmg, so it' s pretty clever to know, what is still alive, before you declare the shooting of another smashgun.
I Know they dont have 2d6 strength dude it was a typo.
I Know how the weapon works i just dont fully understand how Many times you roll 2d6s.
But my question still stands. Dakka dakka gives an extra hit roll not an extra attack. So does the 2d6 have to be rolled for the dakka dakka shot as well? Because again, dakka dakka gives hit rolls not extra attacks. And the smasha gun says you roll 2d6 for each attack not hit roll.
As i understand it, that means your dakka dakka shot uses the same 2d6 as the attack that produced the dakka dakka Because that was the "attack that produced two hit rolls
An extra hit roll IS an extra attack as far as the rules are concerned, its just using the same profile as the weapon that generated it.
You roll another set of 2d6 for wounding.
Vineheart01 wrote: An extra hit roll IS an extra attack as far as the rules are concerned, its just using the same profile as the weapon that generated it. You roll another set of 2d6 for wounding.
I See. Thanks.
but does that mean Bomb squigs dont get dakka dakka? It says on its rules, it only gets one attack. But ive always used bomb squigs with dakka dakka. As dakka dakka wasnt an attack, but an additional hit roll given immediately. But if its treated as an attack, it says it dies after making an attack.
warhead01 wrote: I banged out my first Ork army list yesterday and am cleaning up my errors as I made several. Small oversites and whatnot.
What I am struggling with is Ork boys.
I feel like 9th doesn't want me to put Orks in my Ork army. An Ork player I know says it's Boys before toys again but I'm just not seeing it yet.
So my question is how few is too few when it comes to boys on foot? is 15 or 20 too few?
Are quad weapons worth putting in the Boys mobs? I stopped doing that in 5th.
What clan are you using? I play Goffs and in my experience boys are only worth it if you bring at least 3x30 boys so you get the +1 attack for being >20 and make them skarboyz since they tend to just bounce off everything without the +1 strength. I usually give the boss nob a klaw or saw depending on what army I'm facing, and I don't put any weapons on the boys except for choppas or shootas. I've heard other people have success with multiple squads of 10 in trukks for mek lists, but I haven't tried it myself since I don't own enough trukks.
warhead01 wrote: I banged out my first Ork army list yesterday and am cleaning up my errors as I made several. Small oversites and whatnot.
What I am struggling with is Ork boys.
I feel like 9th doesn't want me to put Orks in my Ork army. An Ork player I know says it's Boys before toys again but I'm just not seeing it yet.
So my question is how few is too few when it comes to boys on foot? is 15 or 20 too few?
Are quad weapons worth putting in the Boys mobs? I stopped doing that in 5th.
What clan are you using? I play Goffs and in my experience boys are only worth it if you bring at least 3x30 boys so you get the +1 attack for being >20 and make them skarboyz since they tend to just bounce off everything without the +1 strength. I usually give the boss nob a klaw or saw depending on what army I'm facing, and I don't put any weapons on the boys except for choppas or shootas. I've heard other people have success with multiple squads of 10 in trukks for mek lists, but I haven't tried it myself since I don't own enough trukks.
I'll play either Goffs or try deff skulls. I was worried 3X30 was eating too many points for too small a return.
I've run shoota boys in trukks during 8th and that worked well enough, kinda.
I was wondering about foot slogging in 9th. I was thinking several mobs 3 or 4 between 15 to 25 models to let me have more units on the table but it seems too squishy and or too few bodies to hold ground. I haven't played Orks in over 2 years and haven't played from the codex yet.
warhead01 wrote: I banged out my first Ork army list yesterday and am cleaning up my errors as I made several. Small oversites and whatnot.
What I am struggling with is Ork boys.
I feel like 9th doesn't want me to put Orks in my Ork army. An Ork player I know says it's Boys before toys again but I'm just not seeing it yet.
So my question is how few is too few when it comes to boys on foot? is 15 or 20 too few?
Are quad weapons worth putting in the Boys mobs? I stopped doing that in 5th.
Depends on what you are doing and what your meta is. In most tournament/competitive settings the old rule of boyz before toys is back in 100% force. This is because your opponents are spamming multi-dmg weapons with good AP which are universally wasted on shooting/hitting boys because a 6+ save and 1 wound doesn't care if its killed by a -2 or higher AP weapon with 2-6 dmg, dead is dead
if you are running Goffz than i highly recommend upgrading all your boys to Skarboyz and bringing Ghaz because of the force multiplier effect. 30 skarboys with Ghaz theoretically get around 25-26 dmg against Space Marines while 30 regular (non goff) boys with ghaz only get 16-17 dmg. And keep in mind that is theoretical dmg because its going to be a rare event when you A: get 30 boyz across the field without losing a single model and B: Are able to get all 30 into close combat.
With that in mind, the key to orkz right now...and has been for awhile actually, is target saturation. If you want to bring infantry, only bring infantry, if you want to bring vehicles than only bring vehicles. When you start mixing and matching you are shooting yourself in the foot because a lot of armies have enough secondary weapons that can really kill your list if given a priority target. For instance, an intercessor squad isn't going to be happy shooting at a vehicle, likewise the eradicator squad is going to be a bit pissed off if they have to unload their Melta weapons into the face of ork boyz as opposed to tanks/vehicles. So again, if you want to play infantry horde than 90 boyz is the minimum I would take. If you want to run vehicles than you should bring the BARE minimum for infantry requirements. so either 3x10 boyz or 3x10 grotz and everything else invested in Buggies, battlewagonz and whatever else you want to bring. And in my humble opinion, ALL weapon upgrades for the boyz are useless. 10pts for a single rokkit shot which will miss 1/3rd of the time is just wasted points in my opinion.
Honestly, I'm going to be going to a tournament soon where I bring 180 boyz to the table with Ghaz because Feth anti-vehicle weapons
warhead01 wrote: I banged out my first Ork army list yesterday and am cleaning up my errors as I made several. Small oversites and whatnot.
What I am struggling with is Ork boys.
I feel like 9th doesn't want me to put Orks in my Ork army. An Ork player I know says it's Boys before toys again but I'm just not seeing it yet.
So my question is how few is too few when it comes to boys on foot? is 15 or 20 too few?
Are quad weapons worth putting in the Boys mobs? I stopped doing that in 5th.
Depends on what you are doing and what your meta is. In most tournament/competitive settings the old rule of boyz before toys is back in 100% force. This is because your opponents are spamming multi-dmg weapons with good AP which are universally wasted on shooting/hitting boys because a 6+ save and 1 wound doesn't care if its killed by a -2 or higher AP weapon with 2-6 dmg, dead is dead
if you are running Goffz than i highly recommend upgrading all your boys to Skarboyz and bringing Ghaz because of the force multiplier effect. 30 skarboys with Ghaz theoretically get around 25-26 dmg against Space Marines while 30 regular (non goff) boys with ghaz only get 16-17 dmg. And keep in mind that is theoretical dmg because its going to be a rare event when you A: get 30 boyz across the field without losing a single model and B: Are able to get all 30 into close combat.
With that in mind, the key to orkz right now...and has been for awhile actually, is target saturation. If you want to bring infantry, only bring infantry, if you want to bring vehicles than only bring vehicles. When you start mixing and matching you are shooting yourself in the foot because a lot of armies have enough secondary weapons that can really kill your list if given a priority target. For instance, an intercessor squad isn't going to be happy shooting at a vehicle, likewise the eradicator squad is going to be a bit pissed off if they have to unload their Melta weapons into the face of ork boyz as opposed to tanks/vehicles. So again, if you want to play infantry horde than 90 boyz is the minimum I would take. If you want to run vehicles than you should bring the BARE minimum for infantry requirements. so either 3x10 boyz or 3x10 grotz and everything else invested in Buggies, battlewagonz and whatever else you want to bring. And in my humble opinion, ALL weapon upgrades for the boyz are useless. 10pts for a single rokkit shot which will miss 1/3rd of the time is just wasted points in my opinion.
Honestly, I'm going to be going to a tournament soon where I bring 180 boyz to the table with Ghaz because Feth anti-vehicle weapons
This guy is right.
There are following “except” “...and” to mention:
- Upgrade the Boyz Nobz weapon to killsaw or doublekillsaw. Only toy above the boyz. Greentide lists lacks heavy punch weapons, Nob covered by 30 ablative wounds is one of the way.
- MANz should be there to kill hard targets. 2-3 squads per 4-5 MANz with double killsaw are common.
- There was succesfull lists on tournaments, where pure infatry was supported with small ammount of vehicles. 2 trukks to take 4MANz squads or about 6 smashgunz... depends...
- have some kommandos and stormboyz to be fast and able to do secondaries
What I don' t know honestly is, how to play such lists right. I never played them. I have just a good screening of victory lists
And because I' m just finishing the Ghazzghkulls model and want to try the greentide list soon, how to play him right?
Full speed ahead with Da Jumps and Telyport the old way or be the real target saturator and walk slowly and let opponent waste his shots.... and Da Jump and Telyport the Manz instead?
SemperMortis or anybody else who know - what is the right way?
What secondaries to play? Dominations seems to be pretty obvious. What else? How can you do scramblers if you press your opponent into his deployment?
How to screen and hold the back? Jidmah said “no screen” once. Is it right?
warhead01 wrote: I banged out my first Ork army list yesterday and am cleaning up my errors as I made several. Small oversites and whatnot.
What I am struggling with is Ork boys.
I feel like 9th doesn't want me to put Orks in my Ork army. An Ork player I know says it's Boys before toys again but I'm just not seeing it yet.
So my question is how few is too few when it comes to boys on foot? is 15 or 20 too few?
Are quad weapons worth putting in the Boys mobs? I stopped doing that in 5th.
Depends on what you are doing and what your meta is. In most tournament/competitive settings the old rule of boyz before toys is back in 100% force. This is because your opponents are spamming multi-dmg weapons with good AP which are universally wasted on shooting/hitting boys because a 6+ save and 1 wound doesn't care if its killed by a -2 or higher AP weapon with 2-6 dmg, dead is dead
if you are running Goffz than i highly recommend upgrading all your boys to Skarboyz and bringing Ghaz because of the force multiplier effect. 30 skarboys with Ghaz theoretically get around 25-26 dmg against Space Marines while 30 regular (non goff) boys with ghaz only get 16-17 dmg. And keep in mind that is theoretical dmg because its going to be a rare event when you A: get 30 boyz across the field without losing a single model and B: Are able to get all 30 into close combat.
With that in mind, the key to orkz right now...and has been for awhile actually, is target saturation. If you want to bring infantry, only bring infantry, if you want to bring vehicles than only bring vehicles. When you start mixing and matching you are shooting yourself in the foot because a lot of armies have enough secondary weapons that can really kill your list if given a priority target. For instance, an intercessor squad isn't going to be happy shooting at a vehicle, likewise the eradicator squad is going to be a bit pissed off if they have to unload their Melta weapons into the face of ork boyz as opposed to tanks/vehicles. So again, if you want to play infantry horde than 90 boyz is the minimum I would take. If you want to run vehicles than you should bring the BARE minimum for infantry requirements. so either 3x10 boyz or 3x10 grotz and everything else invested in Buggies, battlewagonz and whatever else you want to bring. And in my humble opinion, ALL weapon upgrades for the boyz are useless. 10pts for a single rokkit shot which will miss 1/3rd of the time is just wasted points in my opinion.
Honestly, I'm going to be going to a tournament soon where I bring 180 boyz to the table with Ghaz because Feth anti-vehicle weapons
That was actually very helpful! Have an exalt. I don't exactly know about the meta, I don't think it really applies as such to my games. My usual skrumgrod is very competitive and constantly prepping to his next tournament but I'm playing more for fun and just trying to give him a run for his money, much as I have done over the last 20 years... The rest of the usual's are more of a fun games crowd not exactly competitive all the time.
I had been thinking more grots were needed but maybe I'm over thinking it.
Zoundz I miss the days where the biggest debate was shootas or choppas.
Wonderful point about multi damage weapons vs boys. hadn't thought about that. I knew it was a thing just hadn't been forward in my mind.
I don't care for special Characters, though I do have old Ghaz. Looks like Ghaz is only listed at 300 points but is that new Ghaz or Old Ghaz?
I'd imagine that the units real value would come from objective holding, actions and being general pains in the backside. The special weapons and re-rolls just let them do a little more on the side as they go about their duties.
Well, compared to the damage output of skarboyz in CC, I would imagine that a rokkit would be a drop in the pan. It is weird to me based sheerly on the math and Ghaz that they're not more common.
With boys being so stupid expensive right now and being neutered relative to SM infantry it seems weird to spend 8 ppm for something that piddly.
I don't think a full strength skarboyz unit would get their full weight in combat ever, but it would help if each model was basically a nob in their own right instead of a french tickler.
I've always been skeptical of rokkits, let alone shoota boyz right now. In 5th they were mathematically ideal against tactical marines, now they just seem anemic and pathetic even without a -1 hit.
Troop choice marines have literally gotten better in every conceivable way since then, it's just hard not to see it as a case study in the balance of power.
The cover save change above anything else is really disturbing in the shooting phase. A +1 to 3+ effectively doubles their durability, and SM are purpose built for hugging cover.
Well I' ve read it after alonger time again and this dude had a greentide and weirdboy improved to be warphead and in fact only think he cast is Psychic ritual.
No T1 Da Jumping boyz into the enemy. No boyz in telyport. In 5 consequent games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rokkits on boyz - I agree, it' s a waste of points. I played them for a few games and they do nothing for a lot of points.
There are Tankbusta bombs to play the lottery with the explosives and they are for free.
I'm not a fan of Da Jump in this edition. Boyz can reach the action without it and if the opponent is smart they won't really get a juicy spot to appear. I like putting meganobz to tellyporta instead. 2CPs instead of 75 points for a weirdboy sounds fair to me and 5 dudes have no problems to appear wherever they need to be.
I'm also not a fan of putting meganobz in trukks, or bonebreakas. If the vehicle is wrecked there are high chances to lose 1 or more models. I only accept 10 boyz + up to 5 meganobz in a BW as I can remove some boyz as casualties if the transport blows up. But only in lists that are based on armored stuff.
A couple of trukks in a greentide can only work on those tables that are extremely crowded with lots of tall and large pieces of terrain, like necromunda style cities, which is not what I typically play. Even then I'd rather tellyport the meganobz.
I agree about rokkits and kombi rokkits. Spare the points and try to fit an additional mek gun, buggy or bomb squigs for tankbustas, if you have them, instead.
Blackie wrote: ... I like putting meganobz to tellyporta instead. 2CPs instead of 75 points for a weirdboy sounds fair to me and 5 dudes have no problems to appear wherever they need to be.
I'm also not a fan of putting meganobz in trukks, or bonebreakas. If the vehicle is wrecked there are high chances to lose 1 or more models. I only accept 10 boyz + up to 5 meganobz in a BW as I can remove some boyz as casualties if the transport blows up. But only in lists that are based on armored stuff.
....
I very much agree in most.
I'm not a fan of any type of DS of the CC units. Well, even the Evil Sunz have about 50% chance (correction 73%) to fail the charge and than what? Goffs worse. You need to drop 2 squads simultaneously to be pretty sure, one of them charge.
Transport have a chance to put the MANz in better position for charge, but the damage on them is definitely a big issue as you said.
What is important imho is to put just a small squad (3, max 4) in the simple trukk. Make them secondary target to kill. 5 MANz is primary target. Any CC version of Battlewagon is primary target. 3 MANz in Trukk are less juicy.
Plus Trukk give them some protection and can block the LOS
On other other hand, any vehicle in greentide list is “send the meltas there, because there is no other choice” target...
As can be seen above - one Weirdboy for 75 p in greentide list with pretty solid chance to control the centr of the field fot first 3 turns has a pretty solid chance to pass Psychic Ritual for 15VP
While I agree with a lot of what's being said here I just want to point out that Evil Sunz do not have a roughly 50% chance to fail the charge, those are more the odds for every other clan. Evil Sunz have a 73% chance of making the charge out of deepstrike (assuming optimal placement).
I personally run vehicle heavy lists and "da jump" is pretty solid then, but that's just for slingshotting grots up the board to be hidden around objectives etc.
I'm not a fan of any type of DS of the CC units. Well, even the Evil Sunz have about 50% chance to fail the charge and than what? Goffs even worse. You need to drop 3 squads simultaneously to be pretty sure, one of them charge.
Are you including the charge-rerolls? Because with our unique ability to re-roll single dice if needed our chances are much better (if you re-roll any and all results of 3 or lower, it's around 75%). I hope that rule is not going to change.
Well the 180 skarboy list is all in on melee, vs a bigger fish.
You've spent 6cp on getting strength 5 (useless vs keepers).
Let's start with deployment, the Keepers threat range is 14 inch move, d6 inch advance, then 2d6 charge, so easily 24 inches. If you deploy on the line you can expect 3 keepers in your face turn 1 if they get first turn, and if you go first you can... advance forward and give them an easier charge? Or maybe stay put and lose a turn? Lose/Lose.
Gazzy suddenly is really sad if he rolls a 1 or a 2 to hit (Keepers are -1 to hit in combat) add in a 4++ invuln onto a keeper and it isn't going down. They can smite into him and then attack - so that is 8 damage onto him at once.
Sylleske (named slaaneshi demon prince) has a million attacks, a million shots, and can fight (or was it shoot?) again after consolidating. Gross :(
So your best case scenario is you somehow charge down a keeper with all your goff buffs and outright kill it. And then you realise that they all get fights first (so you activate your charging unit, then they fight, then they can interrupt to fight with another Keeper, THEN you get to fight with a second unit, then they fight etc etc.
I managed to get first turn, and sacrificed a whole unit of 30 boys strung out infront of my army across the whole map as a receiving unit for all their chargers. Even with making all of my army charging into them turn 2, I got absolutely slaughtered.
It is the nature of a skew list, your victory conditions become skewed too. Your enemy either can't deal with you, in which case your board control gets an unsurmountable lead, or you get tabled.
Edit: Realising I sound overtly negative above, I still love orks and am having a lot of fun experimenting with them. I have had much better success with Deathskullz recently. The mix of obsec on sneaky Kommandos/Stormboys, Hyper efficient murder blenders like the Warboss on Bike and Deffdreads and scrapjets, Hyper efficient shooting in the Dragstas, infruriating cheap trucks filled with grots where if you get lucky on the 6++ invuln/ramshackle roll it can be a pain, Smasha guns holding the backline and screening out enemy scramblers. And don't get me started with the burnabommer ... that thing is the most fun I've had in 40k straight up.
I'm also going to experiment with some evil sunz kustom stompa build, giving them rerolls with Visions from the Smoke is TIGHT.
Sluggaloo wrote: Well the 180 skarboy list is all in on melee, vs a bigger fish.
You've spent 6cp on getting strength 5 (useless vs keepers).
Let's start with deployment, the Keepers threat range is 14 inch move, d6 inch advance, then 2d6 charge, so easily 24 inches. If you deploy on the line you can expect 3 keepers in your face turn 1 if they get first turn, and if you go first you can... advance forward and give them an easier charge? Or maybe stay put and lose a turn? Lose/Lose.
Gazzy suddenly is really sad if he rolls a 1 or a 2 to hit (Keepers are -1 to hit in combat) add in a 4++ invuln onto a keeper and it isn't going down. They can smite into him and then attack - so that is 8 damage onto him at once.
Sylleske (named slaaneshi demon prince) has a million attacks, a million shots, and can fight (or was it shoot?) again after consolidating. Gross :(
So your best case scenario is you somehow charge down a keeper with all your goff buffs and outright kill it. And then you realise that they all get fights first (so you activate your charging unit, then they fight, then they can interrupt to fight with another Keeper, THEN you get to fight with a second unit, then they fight etc etc.
I managed to get first turn, and sacrificed a whole unit of 30 boys strung out infront of my army across the whole map as a receiving unit for all their chargers. Even with making all of my army charging into them turn 2, I got absolutely slaughtered.
It is the nature of a skew list, your victory conditions become skewed too. Your enemy either can't deal with you, in which case your board control gets an unsurmountable lead, or you get tabled.
Edit: Realising I sound overtly negative above, I still love orks and am having a lot of fun experimenting with them. I have had much better success with Deathskullz recently. The mix of obsec on sneaky Kommandos/Stormboys, Hyper efficient murder blenders like the Warboss on Bike and Deffdreads and scrapjets, Hyper efficient shooting in the Dragstas, infruriating cheap trucks filled with grots where if you get lucky on the 6++ invuln/ramshackle roll it can be a pain, Smasha guns holding the backline and screening out enemy scramblers. And don't get me started with the burnabommer ... that thing is the most fun I've had in 40k straight up.
I'm also going to experiment with some evil sunz kustom stompa build, giving them rerolls with Visions from the Smoke is TIGHT.
#WaaaghLyf
Edited: So sorry for all the spelling, on phone.
A regular Keeper is T7 with 16 wounds. At full strength it gets 10 attacks hitting on 2s for 8.3 hits. It wounds on 3s with its Claw and 2s for its sword and is rerolling 1s. so basically 7-8 wounds. So assuming the higher end of 8, that leaves 21 boyz and a nob. Those 21 Skarboyz (doesn't matter except the goff klan trait) get 2 attacks base, +1 for over 20, +1 for choppaz and likely +1 for ghaz. So 105 attacks hitting on 4s because of the rule. Thats 61 hits (exploding 6s), wounding on 5s means 20 ish wounds. The normal keepers only get a 5+ invuln save so 13-14 wounds go through, the nob swings with 5 Saw attacks which still hit on 4s because you cant stack - to hit modifiers, so 2.5 hits, wounds on 3s so 1.6ish wounds for 1 unsaved wound and 2dmg on average so you just killed the Keeper if you are lucky, if not its down to 1 wound. So you sacrificed 64pts of boyz and killed or just about killed a seeker in 1 turn.
Don't get me wrong, those are all planet bowling ball numbers without any game shenanigans happening, but the point is goff boyz can and will make their points back vs. a keeper on average.
That special character you mentioned is basically just a Keeper with a different weapons, the whip is deadly against orkz, especially if its aura effects itself as well. But its going to average 16 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling 1s and wounding on 4s (3s if its aura works on itself). No armor save, so yeah that will mess you up, but still leaves you with at least 15ish boyz alive and the fight twice strat will help alleviate some of these problems. Also, it appears not to have the -1 to hit aura
You're gonna have a really hard time actually fitting all of those models in melee. But you are right, you can, and will severely wound/kill a keeper - on the one turn you're able to charge. That is best case scenario though. They still have Shalaxi, Sylleske, two other Keepers and likely some fiends (which are no joke vs boys).
You will be taking a lot, a lot of damage on their turn from just their psychic phase alone (and from shooting if you count Sylleske and any Keepers with whips). Pavane as a power is insane vs you (roll a doce for each model in enemy unit, on a 6 deal a mortal wound), so assuming you'll start a fight phase with a full squad of boys will not always be the case.
If you are in melee still at any point and haven't charged them - you're going to be losing a lot of boys as all of their units will fight first. This is the rule that really makes the match up such an uphill battle.
It's definitely not unwinnable, but it is a very difficult match up, and will likely hinge on if Ghazzy is able to kill a Keeper in one fight phase.
If I had brought three weird boys, it would likely have been a very different game, but we had both gone into the game not knowing each others lists. So yeah - maybe there is design space left to allow for a weird boy blob moving up the board screened by Gazzy.
Sluggaloo wrote: You're gonna have a really hard time actually fitting all of those models in melee. But you are right, you can, and will severely wound/kill a keeper - on the one turn you're able to charge. That is best case scenario though. They still have Shalaxi, Sylleske, two other Keepers and likely some fiends (which are no joke vs boys).
You will be taking a lot, a lot of damage on their turn from just their psychic phase alone (and from shooting if you count Sylleske and any Keepers with whips). Pavane as a power is insane vs you (roll a doce for each model in enemy unit, on a 6 deal a mortal wound), so assuming you'll start a fight phase with a full squad of boys will not always be the case.
If you are in melee still at any point and haven't charged them - you're going to be losing a lot of boys as all of their units will fight first. This is the rule that really makes the match up such an uphill battle.
It's definitely not unwinnable, but it is a very difficult match up, and will likely hinge on if Ghazzy is able to kill a Keeper in one fight phase.
If I had brought three weird boys, it would likely have been a very different game, but we had both gone into the game not knowing each others lists. So yeah - maybe there is design space left to allow for a weird boy blob moving up the board screened by Gazzy.
A trick with that might be to position your models in such a way as to allow Ghaz to heroically intervene. I believe that the Keepers are unable to hit ghaz if they did not charge him, so if he heroically intervenes because he is surrounded by boyz then he gets to fight for free without being targeted and Ghaz gets 5 attacks hitting on 3s (rerolling 1s) and wounding on 2s. If he gets the average rolls he should be dealing 8ish dmg to a keeper as well at full strength.
*** Side note, but Ghaz is a 300pt fething model, he deserves at the least 2 more attacks base. In fact, I would argue a Keeper is at the least AS good as Ghaz and they are significantly cheaper than him.
They changed Heroic Intervention this edition, now if you heroically intervene into combat with people that charged you the chargers will now be able to target you even if they didn't declare your H.I. unit as charge targets.
+1 On Gazzy being way too pricy, give the man some more attacks - or at least a special profile for dealing with hordes (some form of sweeping attacks). Remember, the painboy is mandatory for him, along with the CP cost I volved in keeping him healed. The cost is real.
Sluggaloo wrote: They changed Heroic Intervention this edition, now if you heroically intervene into combat with people that charged you the chargers will now be able to target you even if they didn't declare your H.I. unit as charge targets.
+1 On Gazzy being way too pricy, give the man some more attacks - or at least a special profile for dealing with hordes (some form of sweeping attacks). Remember, the painboy is mandatory for him, along with the CP cost I volved in keeping him healed. The cost is real.
I'm convinced GW massively over-estimated (Seems like a trend with orkz) how good he would be for us and how effective that 4 wounds per phase thing really is, and really, the saddest part is he only gets 5 attacks to start with. 5! I get it though, we can't have Ghaz with more attacks than a Primaris Captain, that would be absurd.
Willing to bet they thought the wound shenanigans meant 3 rounds to kill him.
GW has proven in the past they dont know their own rules that well. Several times.
Vineheart01 wrote: Willing to bet they thought the wound shenanigans meant 3 rounds to kill him.
GW has proven in the past they dont know their own rules that well. Several times.
Yeah it was rather telling that the first time I ever played against an Ork list with Ghaz in it, I killed him turn 1. Shooting phase I hit him with lots of dakka, charge phase I hit him with a pair Scrapjetz using the 3D6 strat on one of them so 2 D3 mortal wounds on a roll of 4+ and D3 mortal wounds on 2+. In the assault phase I managed to get 4 more dmg on him from the scrapjets, poof, 300pt ghaz dead in 1 turn basically from 1 strat and 2 scrapjets. Didn't even really provide much of a distraction Carnifex since I didn't even dedicate his points cost to killing him in 1 turn.
Ghaz needs buffs if he is going to stay competitive, at the moment hes only good because hes part of a skew list that ignores most of our opponents weapons/units.
Hey guys. im trying to figure out how proper threat saturation works for orks, so i tried to put together a Bad Moon list. Not that i have much knowledge about Bad Moon, but i was thinking about a Bad Moonz Mech list. I also made a Goff Mekboss buzzgob list. I also intend to put down some Deffskulls lists but for now i wanted to try bad moon as i rarely ever run that klan.
I wish i had buggies but i dont really have any of worth. Would you guys be friends and maybe review if you think they could, may be work? I think ive gotten the hang on making infantry lists, but im very bad at making Ork Mech lists. I know buggies lists are amazing but im really lacking buggies, so i will have to do with what i have.
Spoiler:
Spear head detatchment
Extra gubbinz
HQ: Warboss, attack squig, da best arour teef can buy, Da gobshot blunderbuss, kombi weapon with scorcha, powerklaw. Warlord. Warboss on Warbike, Da Killa Klaw, Da biggest boss
Troops: 1 Nob with kombiweapon with rokkit launcha, 9 Boyz with shootas 1 Nob with kombiweapon with rokkit launcha, 9 Boyz with shootas 1 Nob with kombiweapon with rokkit launcha, 9 Boyz with shootas
Elites: 5x kommandos 5x Kommandos
Heavy support: Gun wagon: Da Boomer. 4x big shootas, grot riggers Kannon wagon. 3x big shootas Kannon wagon. 3x Big shootas Morkanaut with KFF. Sparkly bits
Flyers: Dakkajet w. 6 supa shootas Dakkajet w. 6 supa shootas
Dedicated transports: Trukk w. wrecking ball Trukk w. wrecking ball Trukk w. wrecking ball
Am i understanding it correctly with this list? That you dont mix and match infantry and mechs. Furthermore could this list work in a semi competitive way? I had a list where i changed a gorkanaut for the morkanaut simply because it has more shots with its deffstorm mega shoota, and then one dakkajet became a burna bomma for suicide missions. The biggest issue i have with the list is me, missing out on 2 unit slots in the spearhead department. So i guess it makes more sense to ditch maybe a kannon wagon to not waste 3 CP or how ever much it is to run a spearhead detatchment.
The warboss will be in a trukk along side the boyz, and he will have 2 different flamethrowers essentially, the scorcha and his dunderbuss.Will his 3d6 flamethrower total shots work? I have no idea but it will be fun to try out.
The Goff List:
Spoiler:
Spearhead detatchment
HQ: Mekboss Buzzgob Warboss on Warbike. Brutal but kunnin, Da biggest boss, Da killa Klaw, Warlord
Troops: 1 Nob with powerklaw, 9 Slugga boyz 1 Nob with powerklaw, 9 Slugga boyz
Elites: 5 kommandos 5 Kommandos
Heavy Support: Deffdreads with Orkymatic pistons: Deff Dread with 2x saws, 2x klaws Deff Dread with 2x saws, 2x klaws Deff Dread with 2x saws, 2x klaws Gorkanaut w. Slug gubbin Morkanaut with Sparkly bits Mega Dread w. 2x Rippa Klaws Mega Dread w. 2x Rippa klaws
Flyers: Burna Bomma.
I want to tellyport the gorkanaut, and run up the field with deffdreads and mega dreads, while keeping Buzzgob buffing the Morkanaut. My biggest issue with the list is im not having the 2 boyz groups in trukks i feel. Hopefully the Burna bomma can lay waste to some light infantry and make some way before my heavy hitters arrive, and then of course, it will suicide itself.
What do you guys feel otherwise?
The way i see heavy mech lists, i have a hard time seeing it work properly for orks because our units arent duable, but maybe you guys know how to put them together better than me? Admittedly i wanted to try a goff mech list simply because of Buzzgob.I wanted to really try and buff some units with his abilities, as hitting on 3s with sparkly bitz in the shooting phase sounded amazing with a morkanaut.
Well, none of the lists benefits from Bad Moon / Goff so much. Both can benefit from Deathskulls pretty well.
First list - nice shooting. You need however some CC to punch a space on the objectives. Skip the useless kombiweapons and give the nobz double killsaw. This could help little bit.
Maybe put some 3-4MANZ squads in on trukk at least.
Dakkajet is pretty suboptimal right now. Take two wazbooms or Bommers or combination of this instead.
Skip the wrecking ball, useless.
Da Boomer is wors than kannonwagon. Either skip the Gunwagon at all, or change it to ZagZap - I use it due the Jidmah' s tip for about a month and hey man, that' s the gun orks need.
In final you could have a list, that can stay back first 2 turn and shoot down anything that moves and than rush forward to collect the points.
Second list
I'm sceptical about abilitity of deffdreads to march over the field. All my list based on “march over the field” worked more like “die in the middle”.
However 3-4KMB deathskull deffdreads can be very solid choice for cheap money.
I play planes a lot and it is hard to play them right. These are my notes for playing them right:
1. They are primary target. Burna bommer is 100% number 1 target. So if go second, he is dead. Only protection is the lack pf longrange anti tank.
2. Because of 1. deploy them as far as possible and use two at least. One will survive.
3. It is pretty often better do not drop the bommer. Opponent is usually scared like a hell from him so let him waste his shooting on plane above his head with 50% chance to explode and keep your wazboom this way alive. Because that actually can kill some hard models behind the lines.
4. And that is the point. That is why take Jets. To kill LOS ignoring or super range bastards in his own deploy.
5. One Bommer can kill just low number 3W elites (melta bastards) or a lot of cheap stuff.. damaged models usually heal/repair himself before you can shoot them again.
6. Take two wazbooms. That van do a hell damage. It' s in fact 6 smashgunz in opponents deploy.
7. Or take 4 bommers. That is minimum 6-9 MW to same spot. That can kill the army.
Or skip the flyiers at all, like I 'm dooing right now. Their downside is, that you basicly give the enemy target he can shoot at. Because they will be close. If you combine it with the army that moves to the center and want to be close, than perfect! If you have a shooting army camping first turn in the back, that you give a juicy targets to those enemy gunz, that would stay silent in without your jets and do you 0 damage...
Tomsug wrote: Well, none of the lists benefits from Bad Moon / Goff so much. Both can benefit from Deathskulls pretty well.
First list - nice shooting. You need however some CC to punch a space on the objectives. Skip the useless kombiweapons and give the nobz double killsaw. This could help little bit.
Maybe put some 3-4MANZ squads in on trukk at least.
Dakkajet is pretty suboptimal right now. Take two wazbooms or Bommers or combination of this instead.
Skip the wrecking ball, useless.
Da Boomer is wors than kannonwagon. Either skip the Gunwagon at all, or change it to ZagZap - I use it due the Jidmah' s tip for about a month and hey man, that' s the gun orks need.
In final you could have a list, that can stay back first 2 turn and shoot down anything that moves and than rush forward to collect the points.
Second list I'm sceptical about abilitity of deffdreads to march over the field. All my list based on “march over the field” worked more like “die in the middle”. However 3-4KMB deathskull deffdreads can be very solid choice for cheap money.
I play planes a lot and it is hard to play them right. These are my notes for playing them right: 1. They are primary target. Burna bommer is 100% number 1 target. So if go second, he is dead. Only protection is the lack pf longrange anti tank. 2. Because of 1. deploy them as far as possible and use two at least. One will survive. 3. It is pretty often better do not drop the bommer. Opponent is usually scared like a hell from him so let him waste his shooting on plane above his head with 50% chance to explode and keep your wazboom this way alive. Because that actually can kill some hard models behind the lines. 4. And that is the point. That is why take Jets. To kill LOS ignoring or super range bastards in his own deploy. 5. One Bommer can kill just low number 3W elites (melta bastards) or a lot of cheap stuff.. damaged models usually heal/repair himself before you can shoot them again. 6. Take two wazbooms. That van do a hell damage. It' s in fact 6 smashgunz in opponents deploy. 7. Or take 4 bommers. That is minimum 6-9 MW to same spot. That can kill the army.
Or skip the flyiers at all, like I 'm dooing right now. Their downside is, that you basicly give the enemy target he can shoot at. Because they will be close. If you combine it with the army that moves to the center and want to be close, than perfect! If you have a shooting army camping first turn in the back, that you give a juicy targets to those enemy gunz, that would stay silent in without your jets and do you 0 damage...
Thanks for your reply.
About bad moon list:
I think i will try and ditch the Gunwagon then in return for something else, maybe more punchy stuff. I did change the Nobz to kombi weapon with rokkits by the last minute, otherwise they had powerklaws originally. Guess i will change it back. I dont have any Nobz with killsaws sadly so it will have to be killsaws. I thought the Dakkajets would be good with bad moonz as 6 supa shootas have 18 shots, which would be a decent potion of 1s to reroll, otherwise hitting on 4s if i go for the same target.
But you are right. the Kannonwagon dont actually have a ton of shots so they would be better with deathskulls. In fact only the dakkajets benefits from bad moonz. If i should make a proper bad moonz army it would have to be 2 dakkajets and 1 gorkanaut maybe, at least they would have a lot of shots to benefit from the culture. I was hoping the burna bommas would be less good than Dakkajets when you went bad moon. i guess maybe not. I only went for wrecking balls because i was down to 1980 or so points and i had nothing to put points on otherwise :/
In general about the wazbom blasta jets, i sadly dont have those models. Im not sure i want to pretend my burna bomma/dakka jets are wazboms beause they do look visibly different. So i would have to buy those models first. Dakkajets and burnabommas however, look alike i feel. But i do have a question. What do you mean 2 wazboms is the equivilent of 6 smasha guns in the enemys fields? I mean they both have 1 smasha gun, and then they have those wazbom mega kannons which closely resembles smasha guns. But you only your actual smasha guns get that +1 to hit after you've designated a target to be +1 to hit. Your mega kannons still hit on 5s. So ive been kind of afraid of buying the model in case it wouldnt be good enough.
About the Goff list: I hear what you say. Deffdreads are probably going to die in the middle. But im not sure what my alternative is when i go for a mek list. Maybe just more trukk boyz up the field instead? I guess i kinda ended up making a thematic army too, as i wanted units that benefits from Mekboss buzzgobs shinanigans ability to give +1 to hit. at least the morkanaut will stay, and i want the mega dreads to stay too, but maybe thats all i needed.
1. Dakkajet - I used Bad Moon Dakkajet in 8th in pair with Wazboom. In 8th. There was always some GEQ to kill. Now, I don' t see a lot of targets for Dakkajet. 6/-1/1 is a not big deal..
Anyway Burnabommer shooting is pure trash. His point is in bombing (almost twice via strategem)
2. Wazboom - yeah, you' re right, it' s not exactly 3 SMG = 1 Wazboom, but deathskull wazboom benefit from clan rerolls, which shift it to be let' s say equal.....
3. General list building - your list should have a layers.
Layer 1 are Battlewagons. Two of them shoot over the field and all of them goes slightly forward to be n1 target for charge. BW with deffrola with MANz on board goes a lot forward, gunwagon with boyz and Megamek one step behind and the last is Kannonwagon.
Layer 2 - Buggies stay in back and snipe whaever cross the half of the field and I play WWSWF on buggies.
Layer 3 are the MANz and megaboss and grots / boyz inside the transport. Have you shoot down the BW? You have obsec troops on objective now...
So opponent have to choose what to kill. More dangerous and WWSWF buggies that are too far, or BW MANz driving to objectives and shooting him of the board? This is another layer.
Bw with manz and watboss and sometimes even gunwagon goes on one flank to objectives, do the primary attack on one objectives. This makes a big mess on one flank, a lot of units destroied on both sides. This is T1-T2 and sometimes even T3.
During T3 buggies starts the real attack. On the other flank targeting objectives on the othe half of the board incl opponent homes objective. With SJD and kommandos, easy to open another front far away.
So again the layers. If the opponent try to stop my wagons on one flank, he weaken his other flank. And he has no chance to move the units back, because my primary target are fast antitank units. So in T3 he has just anti infatry or slow units. Shield terminators? Well, in this scenario they mostly sitting on the objective attacked by my primary attack on begining and have no chance to do anything, because I moved all my remaing units away from them to control the rest of the field.
That is btw. the big adventage of Kannonwagon. He can move 12” no problem. That is a lot.
If he don't push all his units to againts my BW, Manz and warboss, fine. They continue the attack to sieze his own deploy objectives and the second attack goes the same way. I rotate the front 90degrees. Fast buggies just change the direction and scrapjets change their role from the horn of second attack to the defenders of the weaken flank by moving back and shooting down enemy units from my home and midfield objectives on their side.
Bull with horns. Enemy can choose, which one hits him.
Oh yes of course - there are just T6 multiwound models on the table T1 (except one grots behind LOSblock).
You can imagine, that such nice theory is very different in praxis
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wazboom model - you have all pieces you need. Cut, drill and magnetize:
Thanks for your input. Sadly my own two burna bommas (or actually they are dakka jets) were bought from ebay so i dont have any of the leftover parts. Im not too keen on ripping them apart either. I guess the next plane i buy will be a wazbom blasta jet then.
But your point about wazboms and Deathskulls, that makes sense. i forgot about that, so i guess it almost is like having 3 Mek gunz per Wazbom. But ill try and model my army lists around your tips, with layers and that.
I feel like you have a great list, but again, the problem lies in me not having buggies. I have 1 KBB, 1 dragsta, 1 scrapjet. I feel like making buggies work and making lists around buggies seem relatively easy, in theory (again, i havent tried them out because i dont have them, but when i do theory crafting i feel like making a buggies list is decently easy), but making a mech based army not based on buggies i somewhat fail at. I just feel like i run short on both firepower and durbility when i run after Morkanauts, gorkanauts, massed kannon fire from kannonwagons etc.
I can make infantry armies, like, my main army is a Goff army with 90 boyz and 5 Mek Guns that runs relatively well. But Actual Mech armies? Im not super good at putting that on the table. You know, for those times you are tired of running 90 boyz and wanna try something else.
Can you come up with 1 or 2 proper armies revolving around mechs that dont use buggies for orks? And the funny thing is, despite the Morkanaut is in the teal color in terms of usability, there arent actually any winning lists using them. Same for deff dreads.
But im not competitive, not yet. I have only played for 1 entire year next month so im still learning. So the lists im trying to make just need to be casual really, but still not trash so i try to do better. Your tips have been gold btw. thanks. I will try and use the idea of layers and saturation. At first half a year ago, i thought i understood saturation and not mixing infantry and mechs, but i guess i hadnt fully understood it. I think i understand it a little bit better now.
If you buy some stormboys, here's a really fun and competitive list using your models. (Sorry, it is Deathskulls, they are just That good for mech though) BTW those three dreads re a NIGHTMARE for your enemy. Dropping from the telly porta, 2cp ramming speed says hi.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Noticed you have 90 boys, run one of your big stompy morkanauts as a kustom stompa with this EvilSunz list
. Pop 'More Dakka', Give the stompa full hit rerolls from your weirdboy and keep your weirdboy alive with his cybork body and the painboy (he will perils every other turn from all of those boys powering him up) Proper meme list.
Sluggaloo lists could work. First one could work better, second one could be super fun
Or you can try something like the following one. Actually, it isn' t a top tier list, but having 2 very heavy models able to do turn 1 charge gives you pretty solid chance to do hit. 2 motobosses, 2 squads of manz inside.
2 trukkboyz and lot of stormboyz and kommandos to do the mess around and morkanaut with the weirdboy like fire support.
I guess there is not enough dakka, maybe skip some stormboyz and take something else.... It' s just Saturday morning inspiration.....
Buggies needs to be in threes, or twos at least to work...
Or wait... another inspiration...
I guess there could be a way how to skew Liam Hacket list from Adeleide open this year to your models. Just switch the Scrapjets to Deffdreads and ad some another dakka. (Google the list)
