addnid wrote: Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)
What? According to battlescribe and wahapedia, Smasha Gunz ARE blast?
i could be wrong but.. thats what it says. I know neither is official data and they make mistakes, but rather often they are not wrong.
Smasha gun is on the list for the blast update, just double-checked with the actual book.
The only mek gun that can shoot into combat is the traktor cannon.
yea i figured they were. Also, thanks for the update on the killsaw/powerklaw. It made things a bit clearer.
Tomsug wrote: SAG + move + More Dakka = problem solved. But yes, that ' s an issue. But if you put him on the top of the building, you don' t have to move him anymore.
Yeah, I guess this 18 SMG 8th feeling could be caused by the 8th ed terrain common in the area..
If SMG shoots in CC, it means, some dudes came to your deploy and taking your objectives. And it' s blast anyway....
But really - after first couple of games in 9th, I was amazed by SMG on the new tables, because thanks smaller tables, there were nowhere to hide. Worked great. Until we found how 9th ed table should looks like. Than it was less fun.
What is great about SMG is that they can screen your deploy very well. Until you face the opponent with less than 9” deepstrike...
Later, most of the game 50% of SMGs on the table was either unable to fire at all or unable to fire to the right target or without -1 to hit. In later turns, it was even worse...
Thats a lot of CP to maybe do a wound or two. I hate the SAG with a passion. Its the most Orky weapon and it pays for it in both cost and randomness. Id rather have 3 SMGs in every single scenario if im honest. Placing a SAG in a building doesnt suddenly unlock half the board to his shooting, Obscuring will still limit what he can target just as much as a SMG. Yeah the SAG might have character protection but is he really doing much with his random ass gun at BS5? 60" range is wasted in 9th ed, AP5 just the same really. I dont really want to burn 2CP on a unit that wont make much return. Put the SMGs in Strategic Reserve if you are worried that they will get shot and atleast they will get greater movement and lines of fire that way. What happens when someone cracks that (relatively easy) castle and spanks the 1-3 SAGs? Thats 360pts down the drain and 3HQ slots plus whatever was being their screen/bodyguard.
I dont mind missing or fudging a few SMGs attacks, I mind when 1 or 2 SAGs just roll like ass because Orks like randomness. The weapon should be more reliable, atleast D6+3 str or something. You might love them and have great games, that 1 guy at a tournament might have had luck with them, but that doesnt reflect upon everyone. I didnt really like the BM/DS SSAG too if im honest. Maybe people are wizards with BS5 random profile weapons, I aint one of them. Give me a Rokkit Launcha and ill make bank, give me a SAG and ill feel myself sinking deeper into Gork's wrath as I roll below str 6 most of the game or 1-3 shots and dont get a single hit.
addnid wrote: Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)
What? According to battlescribe and wahapedia, Smasha Gunz ARE blast?
i could be wrong but.. thats what it says. I know neither is official data and they make mistakes, but rather often they are not wrong.
Smasha gun is on the list for the blast update, just double-checked with the actual book.
The only mek gun that can shoot into combat is the traktor cannon.
Ah damn ! OK so I guess at least it makes SMG better VS DG and DA, with those large packs of terminators I am seeing in some lists
my main gripe with the SAG isn't the strength its the number of shots. Strength was always minimized by me taking it on a warlord with the trait that gave him +1 to wound, so even if I rolled S3 it was still wounding Knights on 5s and infantry on 4s.
But, if you roll 1 shot...well guess what? you aren't likely to hit, and over 6 game turns you are likely going to average 21 shots which is 8ish hits (with DDD) So you are talking about 1.3 hits a turn add in the random strength and if you get even a .65 wounds per turn you are doing alright, especially when you consider you want to be shooting a SAG at vehicles or Heavy infantry.
D6 shots is bad for everyone, but with BS5 guys, its just untenable unless its dirt cheap.
Deffrekka - honestly, both are random as hell. Shoot 2 turns with 6 SMG and do nothing and than olé! Total annihilation!
I was on some tournament a year ago and first two games they literaly killed 1 terminator. Nothing more. And then in 3rd game they smashed down some tyranid monsters turn one into the ash. I was accused of cheating because of it...
In November I tried to use Grot Mob on them and in first game, there was exactly 0 rolls of 1 to reroll.... bloody grots!
SemperMortis wrote: my main gripe with the SAG isn't the strength its the number of shots. Strength was always minimized by me taking it on a warlord with the trait that gave him +1 to wound, so even if I rolled S3 it was still wounding Knights on 5s and infantry on 4s.
But, if you roll 1 shot...well guess what? you aren't likely to hit, and over 6 game turns you are likely going to average 21 shots which is 8ish hits (with DDD) So you are talking about 1.3 hits a turn add in the random strength and if you get even a .65 wounds per turn you are doing alright, especially when you consider you want to be shooting a SAG at vehicles or Heavy infantry.
D6 shots is bad for everyone, but with BS5 guys, its just untenable unless its dirt cheap.
They really need 2d6 shots or a flat 6 to make it worthwhile at 120 points.
Yeah, unfortunately its mainly Imperials/SM that get the flat number of shots, they almost always like making it random D6 or D3 shots for a lot of Ork weaponry. So they might make it 2D3 shots or something to lower the variance but still make it random.
Also, my game with my deffwing list was really fun but the mobility issues of a meganobz heavy list was readily apparent when my transports got popped one by one. It more or less cost me the game since I couldn't get to certain objectives on time. I don't know if it was my dice rolls spiting me but I rolled a LOT of 3's to hit, as if Gork was chastising me for not bringing the WAAAGH! Banner. Really makes me wish Meganobz had a base WS2+ so the negatives to hit aren't so bad on our guys considering we have pretty much no reroll auras.
"Orks are supposed to be funny and random is funny so they only get randomness!" -GW
Random can be fun/funny but when its literally just number of shots/strength, its just another potential of doing nothing.
And in the past when we had charts, usually half of the chart was actively bad for us not just "well that didnt work"
Vineheart01 wrote: "Orks are supposed to be funny and random is funny so they only get randomness!" -GW
Random can be fun/funny but when its literally just number of shots/strength, its just another potential of doing nothing.
And in the past when we had charts, usually half of the chart was actively bad for us not just "well that didnt work"
Oh I remember, unfortunately GW almost always costs things in ork armies as if you had rolled high for all the random D6 rolls, rather than factoring the actual average and low rolls you can get. It's why the Gorkanaut initially had an asinine 3D6 shot for their deffstorm megashoota originally in the index that they eventually made a flat 18 shots in the codex once they finally realized Orks have terrible BS.
Yeah that too.
No idea how many times ive had opponents flip out over my rules because of the "potential" power, despite the fact its far far more likely to actively HURT ME rather than do that insane potential.
SAG pre-8th edition anyone? boom, there goes 1/3 my army....
Vineheart01 wrote: "Orks are supposed to be funny and random is funny so they only get randomness!" -GW
Random can be fun/funny but when its literally just number of shots/strength, its just another potential of doing nothing. And in the past when we had charts, usually half of the chart was actively bad for us not just "well that didnt work"
Old Shokk attack gun.
Double 1s, kill yourself and all nearby models.
Double 2s: Enemy gets to pick where the LARGE blast template lands...funny enough, they always chose right in the middle of my guys.
Double 3s: hits the nearest unit to the unit you were firing at. Not terrible but unless firing turn 1 it was a fair chance to hit your own guys.
Double 4s: Small blast, and goes to S6 AP6 *old AP scale so this was bad*.
Double 5s: Teleports your Big mek into base to base contact with the unit you were shooting at. Basically big mek is dead. congrats.
5 and 6: Counts as S10 but only the model directly underneath the hole in the blast template is hit, so basically it kills 1 infantry guy or maybe hits a vehicle.
Double 6s: literally the only good result. Kills everything under the LARGE blast template. If it was a vehicle it takes a penetrating hit.
All told that is 14 possible results with 12 of them ranging from horrible to meh. That leaves 20 other possible results right? since Double 6 is a good result I mean. So what other results were there? Well since you were always shooting this at vehicles or Elite infantry, anything less than S5 was bad, so that is results of a 1 and 2 and 1 and 3 so another 4 results. If you were explicitly aiming for vehicles, anything less than S7 was bad since there was a fair amount of AV13 running around, so that is results of 1 and 4, 1 and 5, 2 and 3, and 2 and 4.
Remember, in prior editions if you couldn't at least add 6 to the S of the weapon and equal there AV you couldn't hurt a vehicle. So against AV13 vehicles there were about 66% bad results
Also, my game with my deffwing list was really fun but the mobility issues of a meganobz heavy list was readily apparent when my transports got popped one by one. It more or less cost me the game since I couldn't get to certain objectives on time. I don't know if it was my dice rolls spiting me but I rolled a LOT of 3's to hit, as if Gork was chastising me for not bringing the WAAAGH! Banner. Really makes me wish Meganobz had a base WS2+ so the negatives to hit aren't so bad on our guys considering we have pretty much no reroll auras.
Consider the Tin 'eadz subkultur if you play meganobz heavy lists .
Also, my game with my deffwing list was really fun but the mobility issues of a meganobz heavy list was readily apparent when my transports got popped one by one. It more or less cost me the game since I couldn't get to certain objectives on time. I don't know if it was my dice rolls spiting me but I rolled a LOT of 3's to hit, as if Gork was chastising me for not bringing the WAAAGH! Banner. Really makes me wish Meganobz had a base WS2+ so the negatives to hit aren't so bad on our guys considering we have pretty much no reroll auras.
Consider the Tin 'eadz subkultur if you play meganobz heavy lists .
Consider deathwing. Consider the difference. Consider... nevermind...
Imagine if we get something like transhuman for ghazzy's bullyboyz or some such. That would be pretty awesome if i'm honest. Let us make a proper Deffwing.
Also, my game with my deffwing list was really fun but the mobility issues of a meganobz heavy list was readily apparent when my transports got popped one by one. It more or less cost me the game since I couldn't get to certain objectives on time. I don't know if it was my dice rolls spiting me but I rolled a LOT of 3's to hit, as if Gork was chastising me for not bringing the WAAAGH! Banner. Really makes me wish Meganobz had a base WS2+ so the negatives to hit aren't so bad on our guys considering we have pretty much no reroll auras.
Consider the Tin 'eadz subkultur if you play meganobz heavy lists .
I was seriously debating taking it precisely for that reason, but I figured that Obsec would be more relevant given that I had only one squad of grots for my patrol detachment and I didn't want to give up objectives that easily. I'll probably try tin eads next time around and see what level of difference it makes.
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cody.d. wrote: Imagine if we get something like transhuman for ghazzy's bullyboyz or some such. That would be pretty awesome if i'm honest. Let us make a proper Deffwing.
Honestly, more strats or rules to make our elite units actually feel elite would be nice. I could see Bully Boyz getting some type of offensive buff like their Goffs klan rule procc'ing on 5's and 6's, or +1T and +1A.
Basic Nobz becoming troops and having more updated weapons roster would be good. Deff Dreadz having more base attacks, etc.
The closest thing we have to a top tier melee unit is currently Ghazzy and the Biggest Boss Warboss (and you can't have both!), and it's more due to his wound negation rule than anything else.
Well we're likely going to find out the next few codexes soon correct? DE is 2-3 weeks away and that will be the last of the books they teased at the start of 9th. And in theory the supply issues will be running their course soon. I'm not pinning my hopes and dreams on it being the next codex released. But it could certainly be soon.
cody.d. wrote: Well we're likely going to find out the next few codexes soon correct? DE is 2-3 weeks away and that will be the last of the books they teased at the start of 9th. And in theory the supply issues will be running their course soon. I'm not pinning my hopes and dreams on it being the next codex released. But it could certainly be soon.
We're definitely slated for something within the next 6 months. I believe the most likely release after DE might be Mechanicus given their preview as well, but let's hope Orks have a proper touch up when we swing around with the codex update.
SoB are probably coming soon as well, considering they had a model previewed at the same time as our Ork boy/nob/elite whatever and admechs skitarii prime. Then obviously they have their mech suits coming also.
I'd wager GW wouldn't put any Xeno update back to back this early in 9th considering they get model(s) as well so after DE it's probably SoB, then admech and then Orks after that. I'm guessing we get our stuff in May.. Remember, we have like 4 rumour engines so I'd wager we actually get 3 or so new kits this time around.
New Kommandos, with snagga klaws so they can chuck it and ignore vertical distance (like reivers)
New Tankbustas (the rokkit backpack and maybe the monowheel is a bomb-squig?)
And then that new choppa/big choppa could work on almost anything orky.
Tin Eadz vs Deathwing isn't a fair comparison though, the former is from an 8th edition codex and the latter is from a 9th edition codex.
Try Tin Eadz against 8th edition Deathwing or Tin Eadz against armies that still use 8th edition books, or even anything but Terminator/Gravis heavy lists.
Maybe with the new codex our meganobz will get +1T and +1W (which is something I expect actually) plus dedicated stratagems, or other tolls, to improve them. Meganobz were so much better than terminators before the SM 9th edition codex, even without the Tin Eadz or Deathskullz bonuses.
I'd love nobz as troops though; we only have two troops and nobz have little purpose as an elite unit anyway, there's too much competition for the role they might provide. But if they are troops they might be worth taking even if meganobz or dreads hit harder and are more efficient points wise.
Tomsug wrote: Deffrekka - honestly, both are random as hell. Shoot 2 turns with 6 SMG and do nothing and than olé! Total annihilation!
I was on some tournament a year ago and first two games they literaly killed 1 terminator. Nothing more. And then in 3rd game they smashed down some tyranid monsters turn one into the ash. I was accused of cheating because of it...
In November I tried to use Grot Mob on them and in first game, there was exactly 0 rolls of 1 to reroll.... bloody grots!
They are both random but atleast 1 is quarter the price, hits better, doesnt suffer a heavy penatly when it moves and gets past things like Transhuman. Whiffing 3 times in a turn with SMGs is less likely than 1 time with a SAG. Just because a Big Mek can be untargetable doesnt mean he's great... he really needs atleast BS4 (As with all Mek units in my opinion) with DDD being more standardised for 9th edition and other exploding 6s to hit abilities out there. Then I might use 1 or 2.
In the same argument I was in a tournament in a year ago and my SMGs were pure fire. I one shot LR Tank Commanders, PBC, Exorcist. Im never really let down by SMGs, I dont care if I loose 3 or 4, they are cheap, expendable and still make returns. I dont get that same feeling with a SAG. It may work for you and that other guy, the same isnt true for the rest of us. I really want him to be more reliable, or just worth his 120pt cost. Compare him to other things in his pts cost like T'au Commanders and the like and its quite embarassing. He shouldnt be 120pts.
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Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah that too.
No idea how many times ive had opponents flip out over my rules because of the "potential" power, despite the fact its far far more likely to actively HURT ME rather than do that insane potential.
SAG pre-8th edition anyone? boom, there goes 1/3 my army....
I always used to roll like double 5 which then teleported the Big Mek into close combat. It happened so much I started kitting him out with atleast a Big Choppa. He would always die in return with his 2 wounds an 4+ save.
I've played with BloodAxes (on Combat Patrol level, so it's somewhat different game) and used Smasha Guns and Infantry.
Da Taktis was to catch opponent with infantry, fall back, shoot with Smashas, and then charge again. It was a solid combo.
Hey all, new to Orkz and Im shocked how long it took me to start them!
Quick question on Ork nobz (non Mega armour variety), I love the models and I've been thinking of running two squads of 5, boss with Pk and choppa and 4 with big choppas/choppa all for around 115 pts seems to be very nice squad to maul most targets sub T8 and get good rerolls on the klaw and obsec from Deffskulls.
Is this a decent idea (if using a trukk to get about as a cheap threat for the hordes of boys running up or other trukks with nobz) or am I just in love with a bad idea?
I have had very lackluster experiences with the regular Nobz.
I used them against Necrons a couple of times, and they don't quite have the hitting power to wipe large Warrior squads. This means that the squad can reanimate and fall back, and the Nobz will be blasted to bits by another squad. T4, W2 and 4+ save is not durable enough to stay alive in the middle of the field.
5 deathskullz nobz on a trukk compete with 12 trukk boyz (including a klaw/saw). Both are decent for surgical strikes, they lack hitting and staying power but can threaten smaller squads of specialists. Boyz will probably cause less damage but they're also more bodies for the obj sec purpose.
Meganobz are the heavy hitters.
Multiple squads of nobz are probably hard to field without regretting them, and definitely you don't want them riding on the same transport, but a single squad of deathskullz trukk nobz along with a list that has synergies with it can work decently, at least in friendly to semi-competitive metas.
Ah thats good, my thinking was two trukks, one with nobz, one with trukk boyz or tank bustas and a 3rd trukk with Mega Nobz all speeding up with other threats for mid field overload n deffskulls
I like running a squad of 10 nobz with 2 ammo runts to absorb the disembarkation deaths that occur when the trukk they are riding in inevitably gets destroyed.
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: I like running a squad of 10 nobz with 2 ammo runts to absorb the disembarkation deaths that occur when the trukk they are riding in inevitably gets destroyed.
Sounds like a gamble as the 11-12 man squad can also get max shots against blast weapons if only 0-1 models die from the destruction of their transport. Those 2 ammo runts that on paper should keep the nobz alive for longer can actually make the unit disappear faster.
Personally I'd field 9 nobz + 1 ammo runt if I want a large squad.
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: I like running a squad of 10 nobz with 2 ammo runts to absorb the disembarkation deaths that occur when the trukk they are riding in inevitably gets destroyed.
Sounds like a gamble as the 11-12 man squad can also get max shots against blast weapons if only 0-1 models die from the destruction of their transport. Those 2 ammo runts that on paper should keep the nobz alive for longer can actually make the unit disappear faster.
Personally I'd field 9 nobz + 1 ammo runt if I want a large squad.
You know what, that just sounds objectively better. Thank you.
Boris420 wrote: 10 Nobs with Kombi Skorchas in trukk > 12 Burna Boyz in trukk. Thanks GW.
I'll do you one better, just take 3 kustom boosta blastas with squig-hyde tyres and you'll probably do more (and actually be in range for the flamers) than the 10 Nobz with Kombi-Skorchas or the Burna Boyz.
Skorchas need a points cut down to 10, both Skorchas and Burnas need that range boost to 12" and my god do burnas need to at least do D6 shots in shooting.
But yeah, GW really like making generalist units within an army do a job better than specialists sometimes.
quite frankly i dont even care if they buff burnas to get an AP, just give them back D6 shots and 12" range.
Its so stupid that they cost THAT MUCH and do D3 S4 AP0 attacks.
In new upcoming codex for Orks, do you think they'll give Choppas +1ap?
My mate was pondering and said back in WHFB Orcs got +1 str on a turn they charged or were charged (which also translated to -1 to enemy armour saves) and I feel that would be a cool way to represent the initial outburst of violence Orks are most famous for
Also gives choppa boys a hell of a better bump vs all the armour heavy targets these days
It seems like they are giving all melee weapons which are actual weapons (swords, knives, axes, maces) at least AP-1, no AP remains reserved to models fighting with their fists. So it's possible that choppa boyz or nobz will be hitting with AP-1 while shootas, tank bustas or lootas remain at AP0.
However, considering the massive amount of changes done to death guard (a rather neglected army in 8th), we might have a completely different army at our hands once the codex drops, and most things we see as gospel today will be invalidated.
Vineheart01 wrote: quite frankly i dont even care if they buff burnas to get an AP, just give them back D6 shots and 12" range.
Its so stupid that they cost THAT MUCH and do D3 S4 AP0 attacks.
We live in an era in which everything rolls tons of dice and yet GW is scared to let burnaboyz roll theirs .
10-12 burnaboyz in a trukk are (and will likely stay) 200ish points for a unit that should roll 30-40 dice on average and only if they are very close to their target. It doens't sound that insane comparing to the firepower and/or number of attacks many recent (and some old) units have.
12ppm for D6 autohits at S4 AP-1 or S4 AP-3 in combat if they didn't fire is what I wish they'd get. It's actually very close to what they used to have once.
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Gir Spirit Bane wrote: In new upcoming codex for Orks, do you think they'll give Choppas +1ap?
My mate was pondering and said back in WHFB Orcs got +1 str on a turn they charged or were charged (which also translated to -1 to enemy armour saves) and I feel that would be a cool way to represent the initial outburst of violence Orks are most famous for
Also gives choppa boys a hell of a better bump vs all the armour heavy targets these days
+1 S is already merged into the current ork profile. Orks used to be S3 base, eventually with +1S if they charged, for several editions. I'd prefer +1 A if they charge, charged, heroically intervened. I mean SM have it, I don't see why orks shouldn't get it as well.
Blackie wrote: +1 S is already merged into the current ork profile. Orks used to be S3 base, eventually with +1S if they charged, for several editions. I'd prefer +1 A if they charge, charged, heroically intervened. I mean SM have it, I don't see why orks shouldn't get it as well.
Eh, they should just give them +1A then. I'm very glad that they removed the "you get +1A except sometimes" rule from DG.
No, please no more attacks on normal boyz. They get enough attacks and it's just that they bounce off everything sans other boyz/cultists. I don't think another 30 attacks are actually going to scare those DG termies and the like, it's just going to take an even longer time to roll. Some flavour of getting AP-1 on choppas is what I want, either through a statline upgrade on the choppa or just Orkz getting +1 AP on the charge as I've suggested before.
Nobz on the other hand could easily get another attack (or just make 'em T5)
Blackie wrote: +1 S is already merged into the current ork profile. Orks used to be S3 base, eventually with +1S if they charged, for several editions. I'd prefer +1 A if they charge, charged, heroically intervened. I mean SM have it, I don't see why orks shouldn't get it as well.
Eh, they should just give them +1A then. I'm very glad that they removed the "you get +1A except sometimes" rule from DG.
Agree, unfortunately GW loves rules bloat. SW trait is still "you get +1 to hit except sometimes". On top of doctrines and other 6-7 general rules shared among SW units.
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PiñaColada wrote: No, please no more attacks on normal boyz. They get enough attacks and it's just that they bounce off everything sans other boyz/cultists. I don't think another 30 attacks are actually going to scare those DG termies and the like, it's just going to take an even longer time to roll. Some flavour of getting AP-1 on choppas is what I want, either through a statline upgrade on the choppa or just Orkz getting +1 AP on the charge as I've suggested before.
Nobz on the other hand could easily get another attack (or just make 'em T5)
I'd love boyz, regardless of their number, to have 4 attacks base each, like they had in previous editions if they charged. To me it's 10 man squads that should do some work, not the 30 man blob. 2A base + 1 for choppa + 1 for charging, all (but the nobz special weapon's attacks) at AP-1 could be the right answer.
The blob should be played for the number of wounds, immunity to morale failure and the horde playstyle, not because otherwise boyz don't do jack in combat. With the nerf of the klaw since the transition between 7th and 8th smaller squads of boyz aren't killy enough to be justified outside the tax or niche role; IMHO it's a problem. And with the current engagement rules 10-12 boyz roll the same dice than 30 boyz, barring the horde bonus (which I'd like to be triggered at 11+ bodies, like blasts malus).
Jidmah wrote: It seems like they are giving all melee weapons which are actual weapons (swords, knives, axes, maces) at least AP-1, no AP remains reserved to models fighting with their fists.
So it's possible that choppa boyz or nobz will be hitting with AP-1 while shootas, tank bustas or lootas remain at AP0.
However, considering the massive amount of changes done to death guard (a rather neglected army in 8th), we might have a completely army at our hands once the codex drops, and most things we see as gospel today will be invalidated.
See Ive been saying this the whole time I think our new Codex will be a totally different beast than what it is now just from looking at what they have done so far with Necrons, Deathguard and Dark Angels (I dont think Space Wolves and Blood Angels really changed dramatically like the others). Dark Eldar will be the next indicator of how far GW could change a faction and maybe Admech too if they are out after the Drukhari.
Im pretty certain Choppas will get AP-1 or Goffs will have an additional AP on the charge like with what some Dynasties and Holy Orders get. Plague Knives have -1AP, Astartes Chainswords do, maybe Hekatari Blades will with DE. I just dont know how that will effect Big Choppas, will they become AP2, but then what about Power Stabbas, will they just become orky Power Swords?
I have a big feeling Waaagh! will change in a more powerful and meaningful way which will drastically shape the army more than just an advance and charge mechanic.
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PiñaColada wrote: No, please no more attacks on normal boyz. They get enough attacks and it's just that they bounce off everything sans other boyz/cultists. I don't think another 30 attacks are actually going to scare those DG termies and the like, it's just going to take an even longer time to roll. Some flavour of getting AP-1 on choppas is what I want, either through a statline upgrade on the choppa or just Orkz getting +1 AP on the charge as I've suggested before.
Nobz on the other hand could easily get another attack (or just make 'em T5)
A lot of combat centred armies have more than just mass attacks (although have that too). They have rerolls either to hit or to wound, mass AP, ways to boost their hit/wound rolls, strats that further improve melee output and tricks around pile ins and consolidates. AP 1 can be largely ignored by some armies and whilst it is nice id rather Orks have other ways to boost their melee damage in addition. Im also not a fan of just throwing more dice at the problem, statlines and wargear are already starting to get inflated in 9th but I guess if everyone is like that then its the new normal....
AP1 is a good start on Choppas but some other combat synergies would be nice too, and for the love of Gork can Boss Nobz be more beefy. All he does is give Leadership 7 to other Nobz and Meganobz... he should be like other sergeants and get +1 attack also, hes the Boss of the Nobz, why isnt he more brutal and violent than the mob he leads.
Goreshrek wrote: For boyz, bring back the Choppa Rule (5th edition?) - limits opponent armor save to 4+.
You could really tear thru a unit with that.
I feel like that AP-1 for choppas makes a lot more sense personally. It would already make most marine units without storm shields or terminator saves go to a 4+ save anyways, while also providing utility against non MEQ forces. Also, it never made sense to me that a weapon that is effective against heavy armour is somehow less useful against less armoured units.
i never understood that rule either, especially since it was a very common weapon.
Basic troopers with effectively AP-2 weapons against bigdog enemies? wat?
Goreshrek wrote: For boyz, bring back the Choppa Rule (5th edition?) - limits opponent armor save to 4+.
You could really tear thru a unit with that.
I was so sad to lose this rule, I would love to see it return. Especially since it allowed orks to go against the meta which at the time was littered with terminators. On the other hand it meant orks struggled against demons, as you were paying points for a rule that had no effect against that army. Or guard for the same reason as they had few things that had better than a 4+.
Looking at the grot mega-tank, it doesnt look so bad 7 big shootas and 1 shoota at 4+ BS plus dakka-dakka, its BS doesnt degrade either, 11 wounds T6 3+ save all for 90 pts and only a fast attack slot
also the regular grot-tank is pretty garbage imo, unless you just want a cheap screening unit in a fast attack slot to fill a brigade or something
The regular grot tanks are, sadly, pretty terrible. But they are cute and fun. The mega grot tank lost a couple of its fluffy rules but it's almost okay now. It has a couple of issues though:
1, It competes in the same slot as the superior buggies
2, 90 points isn't a lot but big shootas are terrible so any "real" loadout is 160 points, with either KMBs or rokkits. Since the big shootas are free (ie already included in cost) shouldn't the rokkit or KMB only be a 5 point upgrade per weapon? A 35 point shave would've made them interesting.
3, Grots and their general lack of grot mobs. An all KMB mega tank with "Cheeky zoggers" is actually not bad but now it's costing you 160 points and a whole 'nother detachment.
bat702 wrote: Looking at the grot mega-tank, it doesnt look so bad 7 big shootas and 1 shoota at 4+ BS plus dakka-dakka, its BS doesnt degrade either, 11 wounds T6 3+ save all for 90 pts and only a fast attack slot
also the regular grot-tank is pretty garbage imo, unless you just want a cheap screening unit in a fast attack slot to fill a brigade or something
Bringing 7 of a bad and inefficient gun doesn't make it great
Vineheart01 wrote: i never understood that rule either, especially since it was a very common weapon.
Basic troopers with effectively AP-2 weapons against bigdog enemies? wat?
I think it was more just representing the sheer ferocity of Orks in melee. Its resembled in Purging of Kallidus, when the Orks fight the Dark Angels they dont just go in flailing, they pin the Marines to the ground, hacking at joints and weak spots, the Marines literally get dog piled by 3 or 4 Orks hacking away whilst hes on the ground or in a choke hold, pulling arms off, twisting and yanking at your head, lobbing off legs at the groin or knee. A Terminator might be able to take a direct hit, but when this slow and ponderous hulk of metal just gets over ran by brutes who fight dirty and without honour... No amount of armour will protect you from a mob of Boyz. Thats why the best armour youd get would be a 4+. Not because Choppas were just magic plasma cutters, but instead representing the way Orks fight. As Gorgutz would say "Fight like an Ork!".
We only really see fighting from a Space Marine's perspective, where they just go full Doom mode against hordes of endless Orks/Nids, so people dont really see how Orks fight in novels. It isnt elegant or honourable. The Ork wants you dead and so does all his mates, his aggression is always at 11 and it gets even higher. Its like fighting a Gorilla or Chimpanzee, it wont be pretty, no matter what armour you wear.
bat702 wrote: Looking at the grot mega-tank, it doesnt look so bad 7 big shootas and 1 shoota at 4+ BS plus dakka-dakka, its BS doesnt degrade either, 11 wounds T6 3+ save all for 90 pts and only a fast attack slot
also the regular grot-tank is pretty garbage imo, unless you just want a cheap screening unit in a fast attack slot to fill a brigade or something
Bringing 7 of a bad and inefficient gun doesn't make it great
I sort of like the 2-3x KMB, 4-5x Big Shoota variant.
Makes it 110 or 120 points. Similar to a dragster or mega trakk.
It's probably better than neither, but it's bulkier (11 wound, 3+ save, ramshackle), and I think would actually perform okay if you wanna play with the models.
In reality, just take a dragster or mega trakk, but they aren't too bad.
I've run them a couple of times, even two of them in a game once. They're okayish but anything but the nicest semi-competitive games or below and they'll be a big liability.
Like Tulun stated they're actually somewhat hardy for their points at the cheaper loadouts but unfortunately they're also:
Slow, give up 2 BID points each, have no CC ability, degrade & don't get kulturs.
I still don't get the points though. You get 7x 5 point guns for free, which should mean that those are calculated in the base cost of the model. That would mean that the chassis is costed at 55 points, so why is it that if I add 70 points worth of guns to it it ends up costing 160 and not 125 points? I just want to run a grot gunwagon, GW please.
i have grot mega tanks with 7x KMB, it used to be decent since it was a cheap source of 7KMBs. Not amazing, but in a grot mob they were comically effective (just tissue paper) For some reason in the new forgeworld book they tweaked its statline a bit (more wounds better save), made bigshootas free, and kept it the same overall price. Meaning now my 7KMB mega tanks are more expensive than a supakannonwagon! (since now theyre flatout add 10pts each, instead of 5pts to comp for the bigshoota being removed) And i simply cannot justify that. Bigshootas are such a waste of time, even if they go 2d but remain AP0 i dont think they'd be worth it.
Vineheart01 wrote: i never understood that rule either, especially since it was a very common weapon.
Basic troopers with effectively AP-2 weapons against bigdog enemies? wat?
I think it was more just representing the sheer ferocity of Orks in melee. Its resembled in Purging of Kallidus, when the Orks fight the Dark Angels they dont just go in flailing, they pin the Marines to the ground, hacking at joints and weak spots, the Marines literally get dog piled by 3 or 4 Orks hacking away whilst hes on the ground or in a choke hold, pulling arms off, twisting and yanking at your head, lobbing off legs at the groin or knee. A Terminator might be able to take a direct hit, but when this slow and ponderous hulk of metal just gets over ran by brutes who fight dirty and without honour... No amount of armour will protect you from a mob of Boyz. Thats why the best armour youd get would be a 4+. Not because Choppas were just magic plasma cutters, but instead representing the way Orks fight. As Gorgutz would say "Fight like an Ork!".
We only really see fighting from a Space Marine's perspective, where they just go full Doom mode against hordes of endless Orks/Nids, so people dont really see how Orks fight in novels. It isnt elegant or honourable. The Ork wants you dead and so does all his mates, his aggression is always at 11 and it gets even higher. Its like fighting a Gorilla or Chimpanzee, it wont be pretty, no matter what armour you wear.
Yeah, but it's hard to reflect that type of fighting in a larger scale war game like this when you're basically describing a squad based or RPG scale where you would have the granularity and nuance that can reflect this level of coordination. It's why it's hard to reflect the speed and dexterity of the Eldar in CC now that initiative has been removed as a stat, beyond just giving them Slaanesh style ASF rules. Pretty sure nids can pull off the same kind of pack hunting strats from their endless hordes being directed by the hive mind, yet scything talons just allow you to reroll hit rolls of 1. What you mention also has nothing really to do with the choppa weapon in question, but rather the mob tactics of Orks in general. I think that's sufficiently shown through the +1A from the sheer number of an Ork mob personally.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Hey all, new to Orkz and Im shocked how long it took me to start them!
Quick question on Ork nobz (non Mega armour variety), I love the models and I've been thinking of running two squads of 5, boss with Pk and choppa and 4 with big choppas/choppa all for around 115 pts seems to be very nice squad to maul most targets sub T8 and get good rerolls on the klaw and obsec from Deffskulls.
Is this a decent idea (if using a trukk to get about as a cheap threat for the hordes of boys running up or other trukks with nobz) or am I just in love with a bad idea?
When I go to tournaments I play redundancy mode. If 1 of something is good, i'm going to bring 3. If I can take a squadron I'm taking as many as I can fit/own. A great example of a non-tournament but competitive game I played the other week. Local guy wanted to try out his SOBs against Orkz, I wanted to bring out a semi-competitive shenanigans list. So I dusted off 75 Stormboyz and flooded the game turn 1 with more bodies than you would imagine. I actually won by turn 2 because he just didn't have the ability to bring down so many models in his face so fast. I backed them up by a pair of warboss's on a warbikes so they could all charge turn 1 even after advancing and than mixed in some regular infantry to da jump and that was GG
The problem with doing this with Nobz is....nobz are garbage. 1 Nob is more than twice the price of a boy and has fewer attacks, fewer wounds, fewer guns than an equal amount of boyz. 8 Nobz = 17 boyz and the boyz can take a FREE nob instead of 1 boy so its actually 8 nobz vs 16 boyz and 1 nob. So when it comes to buffing a unit you would rather buff the boyz with more attacks or a 6+FNP etc, and that doesn't even start with the obvious issue of boyz being objective secured for purposes of scoring. If Nobz were more appropriately priced (14-15pts) than their would be an argument to make for some suicide squads of nobz, but even then, only if they had a more reliable delivery system OR they get moved to the troops choice section....which would than bring back the Trukk Boyz list except as Trukk nobz!
bat702 wrote: Looking at the grot mega-tank, it doesnt look so bad 7 big shootas and 1 shoota at 4+ BS plus dakka-dakka, its BS doesnt degrade either, 11 wounds T6 3+ save all for 90 pts and only a fast attack slot
also the regular grot-tank is pretty garbage imo, unless you just want a cheap screening unit in a fast attack slot to fill a brigade or something
Bringing 7 of a bad and inefficient gun doesn't make it great
I'm going to disagree with you Jid. For 90pts a megatank is about on par with buggies. 7 big shootas with DDD = about 12.25 hits, against T4 that is 8.1 wounds, and against a SM 3+ that is 2.7 dmg a turn, honestly not bad for 90pts. For comparison the Scrapjet averages 4 shots with a rokkit which is 1.5 hits, or 1.25 wounds at -2AP so against a SM it has a 0.83 chance to kill a Marine a turn (pretty good honestly) the wing missile likely misses every turn it shoots and than it has 2 TL Big shootas for 6 shots hitting on 5s for 2.3 hits and 6 shots hitting on 4s for 3.5 hits totals almost 6 hits which is 4 wounds and 1.33dmg vs Marines. So if hte rokkit wounds it kills a Marine and the big shootas do almost enough to kill a 2nd, all of this for 20pts MORE than the megatank which has more wounds and a better save than the scrapjet.
If Big shootas get the Heavy bolter treatment (they won't get anything like that in my opinion) they will be great
PiñaColada wrote: No, please no more attacks on normal boyz. They get enough attacks and it's just that they bounce off everything sans other boyz/cultists. I don't think another 30 attacks are actually going to scare those DG termies and the like, it's just going to take an even longer time to roll. Some flavour of getting AP-1 on choppas is what I want, either through a statline upgrade on the choppa or just Orkz getting +1 AP on the charge as I've suggested before.
Nobz on the other hand could easily get another attack (or just make 'em T5)
I'm torn here honestly, I'd love for boyz to get -1AP on their choppas but I also think they should have that +1 attack baked into their new price as well (8pts is just ridiculous), making them 3A Base. The difference right now. 1 boy at 3attacks -1 AP against a SM is going to do 2 hits, 1 wound and a 50% chance to do 1dmg to the marine. 1 boy at 4 attacks is going to do 2.66 hits, 1.33dmg and .44 chance to do 1dmg. I'm just a bit weary of GW's design path. I have this horrible feeling that the "elites" we struggle against will be getting some new rule which allows them to ignore the 1st AP of a weapon soon.
With that said, the "no save better than 4+" sounds good but there is zero doubt in my head that the SM fanbase would throw a tantrum about not getting their special snowflake rules.
bat702 wrote: Looking at the grot mega-tank, it doesnt look so bad 7 big shootas and 1 shoota at 4+ BS plus dakka-dakka, its BS doesnt degrade either, 11 wounds T6 3+ save all for 90 pts and only a fast attack slot
also the regular grot-tank is pretty garbage imo, unless you just want a cheap screening unit in a fast attack slot to fill a brigade or something
Bringing 7 of a bad and inefficient gun doesn't make it great
I'm going to disagree with you Jid. For 90pts a megatank is about on par with buggies. 7 big shootas with DDD = about 12.25 hits, against T4 that is 8.1 wounds, and against a SM 3+ that is 2.7 dmg a turn, honestly not bad for 90pts. For comparison the Scrapjet averages 4 shots with a rokkit which is 1.5 hits, or 1.25 wounds at -2AP so against a SM it has a 0.83 chance to kill a Marine a turn (pretty good honestly) the wing missile likely misses every turn it shoots and than it has 2 TL Big shootas for 6 shots hitting on 5s for 2.3 hits and 6 shots hitting on 4s for 3.5 hits totals almost 6 hits which is 4 wounds and 1.33dmg vs Marines. So if hte rokkit wounds it kills a Marine and the big shootas do almost enough to kill a 2nd, all of this for 20pts MORE than the megatank which has more wounds and a better save than the scrapjet.
According to your own math, for 20 points the scrapjet kills almost twice as many marines, has rather decent melee, benefits from cultures and stratagems, doesn't degrade and can actually reliable threaten vehicles and gravis.
How exactly does that make the megatank "great"?
there is no way a similar cost of rokkits and bigshootas has the math come out to favor the bigshootas against marines.
GrotMegaTanks suck, because bigshootas suck and the other weapons are doubling its cost for some reason.
I dont think the grot mega-tank sucks, it has grot ballistic skill, and a fair amount of dakka for its point costs, I thinking spending 10 pts per kustom mega-blasta or rokkit launcha, takes away from the value of all the free big shootas, they might not be as great at taking down marines, but they are excellent as an anti-horde tool, or with its long range it can take down the cheap units your opponent is trying to use to score points with and not really fight with.
also the fact that it fills out a fast attack slot can make it perfect for filling out a brigade
bat702 wrote: I dont think the grot mega-tank sucks, it has grot ballistic skill, and a fair amount of dakka for its point costs, I thinking spending 10 pts per kustom mega-blasta or rokkit launcha, takes away from the value of all the free big shootas, they might not be as great at taking down marines, but they are excellent as an anti-horde tool, or with its long range it can take down the cheap units your opponent is trying to use to score points with and not really fight with.
also the fact that it fills out a fast attack slot can make it perfect for filling out a brigade
I would argue against it being a good anti-horde tool because the lack of AP makes it very weak against enemy units in cover, which is usually where those cheap units are hiding. This isn't factoring any dense cover either, where the -1 to hit makes you go back to regular orky BS5+. Not to mention the fact that Orks as an army is not in need of a dedicated anti-horde unit, most of our core units like boyz already cover that role well and the current meta, outside of maybe some Tyranid lists, don't do horde well which means you're effectively bringing a weapon you don't need given the elite-heavy environment 9th ed favours at the moment.
Goreshrek wrote:For boyz, bring back the Choppa Rule (5th edition?) - limits opponent armor save to 4+.
You could really tear thru a unit with that.
Please no. That was the worst Ork codex written by the most clueless moron who stripped all the characters out of Orks. Anything hinting back to that should be auto-purged by the inquisition.
I don't think spamming attacks by boyz is a good option either. We've seen a slow evolution of Boyz slowly improving based on the game/codex creep improving. A Boy should be a legitimate threat in numbers to a marine but not on his own. He should also be strong and tough to be a threat. -1 AP, S4, 2A (with improvements to 3 or 4) and WS 3+ should be enough.
bat702 wrote: Looking at the grot mega-tank, it doesnt look so bad 7 big shootas and 1 shoota at 4+ BS plus dakka-dakka, its BS doesnt degrade either, 11 wounds T6 3+ save all for 90 pts and only a fast attack slot
also the regular grot-tank is pretty garbage imo, unless you just want a cheap screening unit in a fast attack slot to fill a brigade or something
Bringing 7 of a bad and inefficient gun doesn't make it great
I'm going to disagree with you Jid. For 90pts a megatank is about on par with buggies. 7 big shootas with DDD = about 12.25 hits, against T4 that is 8.1 wounds, and against a SM 3+ that is 2.7 dmg a turn, honestly not bad for 90pts. For comparison the Scrapjet averages 4 shots with a rokkit which is 1.5 hits, or 1.25 wounds at -2AP so against a SM it has a 0.83 chance to kill a Marine a turn (pretty good honestly) the wing missile likely misses every turn it shoots and than it has 2 TL Big shootas for 6 shots hitting on 5s for 2.3 hits and 6 shots hitting on 4s for 3.5 hits totals almost 6 hits which is 4 wounds and 1.33dmg vs Marines. So if hte rokkit wounds it kills a Marine and the big shootas do almost enough to kill a 2nd, all of this for 20pts MORE than the megatank which has more wounds and a better save than the scrapjet.
According to your own math, for 20 points the scrapjet kills almost twice as many marines, has rather decent melee, benefits from cultures and stratagems, doesn't degrade and can actually reliable threaten vehicles and gravis.
How exactly does that make the megatank "great"?
A big shoota is over priced, as I have stated a BUNCH of times, at 5pts, but atm the model is 90pts with technically 35pts of big shootas. It puts out more firepower for less points than 3 Deffkoptas, which are listed as a step below great by this threads 1st page which is run by you. It has better toughness, and a better save, ramshackle and 1 less wound than those 3 deffkoptas. And of course it hits on 4s rather than 5s, so its actually does significantly more ranged damage than those deffkoptas. Now of course the deffkoptas are great for speed and objective scoring, and at 35pts for a throwaway fast unit its not terrible. But I would argue that the megatank is better than a similar value of Deffkoptas which means its either on the cusp of going to Cyan or solidly in blue.
And the last sentence of my post which you left out was
If Big shootas get the Heavy bolter treatment (they won't get anything like that in my opinion) they will be great
So if those Grot-Megatanks are now putting out 21 S5 AP-1 D2 shots a turn they will be great, but I also don't think big shootas will get that buff and if they do it will come with a hefty price increase which will ruin the entire point of the buff.
First Post! Wanna Thank Jid for the very comprehensive list and frequent discussion you all have here.
I just picked up the hobby in November to play semi-competitive games with 2 of my friends who run Ultramarines and Death Guard.
Following the advice and conversations here, I did really well in our 500 and 1k point games, but now that we are at 2k, I still can find wins, but it has gotten much, much more difficult.
I was curious what you all thought of the following list and tactics -- designed to be pretty straightforward.
The general idea is:
30 boyz threaten da jump turn 1 and keeps units far back to keep an honest screen -allows big units like ghaz to advance the board behind cover more often.
1 squad of boyz to hold easy objectives or actions, depending on mission
1 killsaw nob boyz for a trukk to hit a side or power up the turn 2 or 3 charge from ghaz
5 MANz in the bonebreaka (with the big mek inside to kff large dedicated anti vehicle units, but hops outside with the 30 boyz if we are sloggin' and cant da jump early)
Tellyporta Gorkanaut with 3 MANz to ramming speed charge and "guarantee" a place to break a front line vehicle spot and provide a distraction for ghaz & crew to advance during their following shooting phase
Do you all think that it might be better to go deathskulls, drop ghaz and a mek gun to replace them with 2-3 scrapjets and/or 1 dragsta? If I drop goffs, I would probably replace the bonebreaka with a regular battlewagon as well and throw 10 boyz in with the 5 MANz.
Nobody takes bigshoota deffkoptas for the shooting, they take it for the sheer speed for objective reasons.
Bigshoota variant is way cheaper and likely ignored since it wont do any damage, rokkit variant can hurt and thus will draw attention but it also doubles the kopta cost.
I agree that grot mega tanks are mediocre but not "totally useless/trash/insert hyperbole here". Mega tanks fall in the category of cheap, quite durable (for an ork unit - the battlewagon only has a 4+ save after all), support and/or distraction. With all big shootas, they don't break the bank and shrug off small arms fire. If the opponent devotes proper anti-tank, then 1.) you still have a (slight) chance of saving it with its invul and ramshackle; 2.) good, it means they didn't fire at a more important vehicle. Obviously, the firepower isn't great, but this effects a lot of Ork units, not just the grot mega tank. Its the fact that they tend to survive late in the game (opponents usually ignore it), allowing it to harass their units, pepper shots at a distance, and every now and then get lucky and do some actual damage.
I also disagree with the sentiment that they are bad at anti-horde. IMO, they are adequate at long-ranged anti-horde depending on your list and opponent. Having said that, I would argue that long-ranged anti-horde isn't that useful in 9th, since the focus is on mid-board.
Obviously, I am not saying that they are an auto-include or even a good choice for a competitive list, but in a casual list, relaxed small tournament, or a pickup game, they aren't going to actively hinder you. They have their uses that they fine at (again, not great). They definitely aren't good enough to take multiple in a single list. This saddens me, of course, since I have 3 mega tanks, 15 grot tanks, and 18 killa kans, I would love to run a grot army again...but alas, those days are gone for now.
Chaff clearing isn't really an issue with Orks, though. Spending 90 points for 7 big shootas isn't that exciting.
Hence why I said you add some KMBs, just not 7, because KMBs slap. 2 or 3 KMBs makes the model 110, 120 points, which is solid with the body and considering it hits on 4s.
Throw them in a grot mob detachment and you got a stew going.
tulun wrote: Chaff clearing isn't really an issue with Orks, though. Spending 90 points for 7 big shootas isn't that exciting.
Hence why I said you add some KMBs, just not 7, because KMBs slap. 2 or 3 KMBs makes the model 110, 120 points, which is solid with the body and considering it hits on 4s.
Throw them in a grot mob detachment and you got a stew going.
That is the problem though, its not 90pts for 7 big shootas. its 90points for a T6 vehicle with a 3+ save and 11 wounds that just happens to have 7 big shootas on it. I mean, compare its durability to that of naked battlewagon, the wagon is more durable but not by a huge amount AND it has zero guns for more points.
I think its a good unit for harassing and distraction, but 7 big shootas in their current iteration aren't going to win you a battle. As far as anti-horde....i mean, kind of, but its more a distraction carnnifex than anything, people see a big vehicle and if you put a lot of guns on it, you might distract your opponent into wasting some precious turns shooting at it
tulun wrote: Chaff clearing isn't really an issue with Orks, though. Spending 90 points for 7 big shootas isn't that exciting.
Hence why I said you add some KMBs, just not 7, because KMBs slap. 2 or 3 KMBs makes the model 110, 120 points, which is solid with the body and considering it hits on 4s.
Throw them in a grot mob detachment and you got a stew going.
That is the problem though, its not 90pts for 7 big shootas. its 90points for a T6 vehicle with a 3+ save and 11 wounds that just happens to have 7 big shootas on it. I mean, compare its durability to that of naked battlewagon, the wagon is more durable but not by a huge amount AND it has zero guns for more points.
I think its a good unit for harassing and distraction, but 7 big shootas in their current iteration aren't going to win you a battle. As far as anti-horde....i mean, kind of, but its more a distraction carnnifex than anything, people see a big vehicle and if you put a lot of guns on it, you might distract your opponent into wasting some precious turns shooting at it
Yeah the body is pretty nice. But honestly, adding 20 points so it actually has some punch is not a bad idea. Distraction carnifexes actually *can* do stuff if you ignore them. People will just learn to ignore it and they won't be threatened when they do.
We could see a return meta of low toughness infantry actually being a threat, ie to your t-shirt save orc boys, if you can kill those pesky dark-eldar poison kabal warriors before they unleash a cheap poison volley into your orcs, that might be worthwhile, also if the guard codex literally EVER releases we could see a resurgence of astra-militarum into the meta, and with them thousands of cheap dice-rolls aiming to mow down your poor innocent orc boyz
bat702 wrote: We could see a return meta of low toughness infantry actually being a threat, ie to your t-shirt save orc boys, if you can kill those pesky dark-eldar poison kabal warriors before they unleash a cheap poison volley into your orcs, that might be worthwhile, also if the guard codex literally EVER releases we could see a resurgence of astra-militarum into the meta, and with them thousands of cheap dice-rolls aiming to mow down your poor innocent orc boyz
Bud, the dominant ork meta in tournaments for the last 4-5 months has been Goff Green Tide backed by Ghaz. Orkz can't compete in the vehicle/high durability department right now, so we spam the board with cheap infantry and cap objectives. I played a game recently against a salamanders player, who thought he was being lenient by only taking devestator multi-meltas as opposed to eradicators. All 3 of my buggies and my 2 battlewagons were dead by turn 3.
Having cheaper, flimsier versions of other armies units has always been the ork design philosophy. It's just sort of what we do. But you can sort of get away with spamming deffskull killtanks with a mek nearby. With a little luck they can live waaaaay longer than the enemy wants.
While we're on the topic of grots, I'm going to be playing a very beers and pretzels game and using a very dumb joke list. I'm trying to do a list made almost entirely of grots. I want to ideally do it with the Grot Mob subkultur. As far as I know, Makari is our only gretchin HQ, however he's Goffs and the caveat that he doesn't break the subkultur of a detachment is that he needs to be in the same detachment as Ghazzy. Does this mean that if I take Makari as my HQ that I lose the Grot subkultur for my detachment?
SemperMortis wrote: A big shoota is over priced, as I have stated a BUNCH of times, at 5pts, but atm the model is 90pts with technically 35pts of big shootas. It puts out more firepower for less points than 3 Deffkoptas, which are listed as a step below great by this threads 1st page which is run by you. It has better toughness, and a better save, ramshackle and 1 less wound than those 3 deffkoptas. And of course it hits on 4s rather than 5s, so its actually does significantly more ranged damage than those deffkoptas. Now of course the deffkoptas are great for speed and objective scoring, and at 35pts for a throwaway fast unit its not terrible. But I would argue that the megatank is better than a similar value of Deffkoptas which means its either on the cusp of going to Cyan or solidly in blue.
If you think koptas are taken for their damage output, you really have lost all touch to gaming reality.
First Post! Wanna Thank Jid for the very comprehensive list and frequent discussion you all have here.
I just picked up the hobby in November to play semi-competitive games with 2 of my friends who run Ultramarines and Death Guard.
Following the advice and conversations here, I did really well in our 500 and 1k point games, but now that we are at 2k, I still can find wins, but it has gotten much, much more difficult.
I was curious what you all thought of the following list and tactics -- designed to be pretty straightforward.
The general idea is: 30 boyz threaten da jump turn 1 and keeps units far back to keep an honest screen -allows big units like ghaz to advance the board behind cover more often. 1 squad of boyz to hold easy objectives or actions, depending on mission 1 killsaw nob boyz for a trukk to hit a side or power up the turn 2 or 3 charge from ghaz
5 MANz in the bonebreaka (with the big mek inside to kff large dedicated anti vehicle units, but hops outside with the 30 boyz if we are sloggin' and cant da jump early)
Tellyporta Gorkanaut with 3 MANz to ramming speed charge and "guarantee" a place to break a front line vehicle spot and provide a distraction for ghaz & crew to advance during their following shooting phase
Do you all think that it might be better to go deathskulls, drop ghaz and a mek gun to replace them with 2-3 scrapjets and/or 1 dragsta? If I drop goffs, I would probably replace the bonebreaka with a regular battlewagon as well and throw 10 boyz in with the 5 MANz.
Love to hear your thoughts folks!
Welcome to da Waaagh!
Essentially you have fallen into the one big trap orks have and that is creating a combined arms force - mixing vehicles with infantry.
As none of our units are particularly durable, orks survive by relying on target saturation, which essentially means that you leave a part of your opponent's guns without good targets. You either do by flooding the table with almost exclusively vehicles only or by running no vehicles at all. There are a few units that can go in either type of list either because they very durable for their points no matter what shoots them - most prominently MANz and mek guns.
One option would be to go full goff horde right now, just make sure to upgrade all your boyz to skarboyz when you run do. Instead of all the vehicles you should look into kommadoz or storm boyz to score objectives and max out your boyz squad. You can either tellyport or jump your MANz or just footslog them. When you march them directly onto center objectives they will usually meet something to fight there. If not... free VP!
The other option would be diving fully into the speedwaaagh - in that case you'll probably drop Thrakka, weirdboy, painboyz and downsize the boyz mob to replace them with warboss on warbikes, scrapjets and shokk-jump dragstas. Replacing the bonebreaka with a regular wagon is usually a good idea, as the bonebreaka is great and all, but often isn't worth the extra points.
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Grimskul wrote: While we're on the topic of grots, I'm going to be playing a very beers and pretzels game and using a very dumb joke list. I'm trying to do a list made almost entirely of grots. I want to ideally do it with the Grot Mob subkultur. As far as I know, Makari is our only gretchin HQ, however he's Goffs and the caveat that he doesn't break the subkultur of a detachment is that he needs to be in the same detachment as Ghazzy. Does this mean that if I take Makari as my HQ that I lose the Grot subkultur for my detachment?
Correct. I've seen a couple of Thrakka's converted to being grot-operated mechs though
Essentially you have fallen into the one big trap orks have and that is creating a combined arms force - mixing vehicles with infantry.
As none of our units are particularly durable, orks survive by relying on target saturation, which essentially means that you leave a part of your opponent's guns without good targets. You either do by flooding the table with almost exclusively vehicles only or by running no vehicles at all.
There are a few units that can go in either type of list either because they very durable for their points no matter what shoots them - most prominently MANz and mek guns.
One option would be to go full goff horde right now, just make sure to upgrade all your boyz to skarboyz when you run do. Instead of all the vehicles you should look into kommadoz or storm boyz to score objectives and max out your boyz squad. You can either tellyport or jump your MANz or just footslog them. When you march them directly onto center objectives they will usually meet something to fight there. If not... free VP!
The other option would be diving fully into the speedwaaagh - in that case you'll probably drop Thrakka, weirdboy, painboyz and downsize the boyz mob to replace them with warboss on warbikes, scrapjets and shokk-jump dragstas. Replacing the bonebreaka with a regular wagon is usually a good idea, as the bonebreaka is great and all, but often isn't worth the extra points.
I appreciate the feedback! Unfortunately I havent bought and painted many more boyz than the list currently has so I suppose this lends my play towards the buggy style -- however I also am maxed at 3 scrapjets and 1 dragsta. I retooled the list a small bit -- I think it lends itself more towards the buggy list you may have had in mind:
I think it's looking like a pretty good list now Bicycletoes. I'd maybe swap some points around so you can put a deffrolla on that battlewagon, maybe by swapping a boyz squad to some grots. The dragstas are great and if you want to squeeze another one in there then I'd also recommend the kustom job (it's probably not worth it on a singular dragsta though).
Regarding psychic powers, the deffskulls specific one from Saga of the Beast is pretty good so I'd consider that one. I'm not personally sold on more than one warboss, since without da biggest boss and da killa klaw they aren't that great IMO. (I'm assuming he's there for advance & charge on the boyz and MANZ which could work, just remember to not expect too much from him in actual CC)
I also like kommandos better than stormboyz but that's a minor gripe as both a pretty solid choices.
I also want to say that even if you're getting beat by UM and DG you have to remember that those codices are significantly stronger than orks ATM. So don't fret too much and considering how we're most likely getting a new codex ourselves soon I'd mostly just look into buying the models you really like as almost anything is subject to change right now.
PiñaColada wrote: I think it's looking like a pretty good list now Bicycletoes. I'd maybe swap some points around so you can put a deffrolla on that battlewagon, maybe by swapping a boyz squad to some grots. The dragstas are great and if you want to squeeze another one in there then I'd also recommend the kustom job (it's probably not worth it on a singular dragsta though).
Regarding psychic powers, the deffskulls specific one from Saga of the Beast is pretty good so I'd consider that one. I'm not personally sold on more than one warboss, since without da biggest boss and da killa klaw they aren't that great IMO. (I'm assuming he's there for advance & charge on the boyz and MANZ which could work, just remember to not expect too much from him in actual CC)
I also like kommandos better than stormboyz but that's a minor gripe as both a pretty solid choices.
I also want to say that even if you're getting beat by UM and DG you have to remember that those codices are significantly stronger than orks ATM. So don't fret too much and considering how we're most likely getting a new codex ourselves soon I'd mostly just look into buying the models you really like as almost anything is subject to change right now.
You are right, I didnt even remember that one! No requirement on LoS or visibility also means that it is really flexible with da jump as well.
I also like your idea of deffrolla, especially since I am taking a warboss on warbike, but I really am not a fan of taking gretchin in general. I have had nightmares vs plagueburst crawler and a thunderfire cannon. However, that would free up 10 more points to throw around, maybe a klaw on the storm boyz (dont have any kommando models atm either ).
I see what you are saying with the second warboss, but I am not sure that a 4 PL replacement is necessarily better (I could go big mek in mega armor if I put in the gretchin but still have to mess with points I suppose). I feel its okay because deathskulls allow me to reroll the damage roll anyways (except maybe sometimes vs DG) and the ability to advance and charge with 10 boyz and/or manz to a mid board objective turn 2 feels really strong. I will shop around on those other ends and see what works out points wise.
Let me know if you want another list posted, haha.
PiñaColada wrote: I think it's looking like a pretty good list now Bicycletoes. I'd maybe swap some points around so you can put a deffrolla on that battlewagon, maybe by swapping a boyz squad to some grots. The dragstas are great and if you want to squeeze another one in there then I'd also recommend the kustom job (it's probably not worth it on a singular dragsta though).
Regarding psychic powers, the deffskulls specific one from Saga of the Beast is pretty good so I'd consider that one. I'm not personally sold on more than one warboss, since without da biggest boss and da killa klaw they aren't that great IMO. (I'm assuming he's there for advance & charge on the boyz and MANZ which could work, just remember to not expect too much from him in actual CC)
I also like kommandos better than stormboyz but that's a minor gripe as both a pretty solid choices.
I also want to say that even if you're getting beat by UM and DG you have to remember that those codices are significantly stronger than orks ATM. So don't fret too much and considering how we're most likely getting a new codex ourselves soon I'd mostly just look into buying the models you really like as almost anything is subject to change right now.
You are right, I didnt even remember that one! No requirement on LoS or visibility also means that it is really flexible with da jump as well.
I also like your idea of deffrolla, especially since I am taking a warboss on warbike, but I really am not a fan of taking gretchin in general. I have had nightmares vs plagueburst crawler and a thunderfire cannon. However, that would free up 10 more points to throw around, maybe a klaw on the storm boyz (dont have any kommando models atm either ).
I see what you are saying with the second warboss, but I am not sure that a 4 PL replacement is necessarily better (I could go big mek in mega armor if I put in the gretchin but still have to mess with points I suppose). I feel its okay because deathskulls allow me to reroll the damage roll anyways (except maybe sometimes vs DG) and the ability to advance and charge with 10 boyz and/or manz to a mid board objective turn 2 feels really strong. I will shop around on those other ends and see what works out points wise.
Let me know if you want another list posted, haha.
I really appreciate this feedback guys!
I just tried out a deffskullz list in a tournament this weekend and these are my fresh takes;
1) the rokkit launchas in the boyz squads are awful, even with the re-roll. You want boyz advancing which means you're hitting on 6+ which sucks even with a reroll. Not worth the 10 points it costs you. Power klaws are much more important. PKs rerolling 1 hit is super strong.
2) Make sure you attack with your PKs first in fight phase so you can use all your rerolls as needed, and any leftover you can use with your choppas. Otherwise you end up saving all your re-rolls for the PKs and maybe not using them all.
3) Squads of 3 meganobz are pretty lackluster. Mine got blown off the table by a single psycannon squad.
4) Maniacal seizure is really good. I used it against a daemon prince of tzeentch and was able to wipe it off the board with a squad of boyz with no problems. After da jumping the MANZ up, your weirdboy could turn into an offensive support character.
5) focus on objectives. Obsec everything infantry is a HUGE advantage. Take domination type secondaries whenever you can.
As far as your list goes, I would suggest dropping the squad of 3 MANz since you're using a morkanaut instead of a gorkanaut, and drop the warboss and all those silly infantry rokkits. That'll give you 230 pts to work with. You could put a squad of tankbustas in the mNAUT, a big mek w/ KFF could ride in 1 of the trukks and then pop out when it explodes, or you could add more buggies or kommandos as others suggested.
I just tried out a deffskullz list in a tournament this weekend and these are my fresh takes;
1) the rokkit launchas in the boyz squads are awful, even with the re-roll. You want boyz advancing which means you're hitting on 6+ which sucks even with a reroll. Not worth the 10 points it costs you. Power klaws are much more important. PKs rerolling 1 hit is super strong.
2) Make sure you attack with your PKs first in fight phase so you can use all your rerolls as needed, and any leftover you can use with your choppas. Otherwise you end up saving all your re-rolls for the PKs and maybe not using them all.
3) Squads of 3 meganobz are pretty lackluster. Mine got blown off the table by a single psycannon squad.
4) Maniacal seizure is really good. I used it against a daemon prince of tzeentch and was able to wipe it off the board with a squad of boyz with no problems. After da jumping the MANZ up, your weirdboy could turn into an offensive support character.
5) focus on objectives. Obsec everything infantry is a HUGE advantage. Take domination type secondaries whenever you can.
As far as your list goes, I would suggest dropping the squad of 3 MANz since you're using a morkanaut instead of a gorkanaut, and drop the warboss and all those silly infantry rokkits. That'll give you 230 pts to work with. You could put a squad of tankbustas in the mNAUT, a big mek w/ KFF could ride in 1 of the trukks and then pop out when it explodes, or you could add more buggies or kommandos as others suggested.
1) Yah I sort of felt the same way. I have done it in my lower pt games as well and it felt like the rerolls would net me 0-2 extra rokkit hits over the whole game, which usually isnt necessarily even a downed marine. Quick math says you hit 55% of the time without advancing and 19% of the time while advancing ( both without factoring DDD) but my experience doesnt feel that way. Maybe its so quick I just discount the successes.
2) Yah PK with Deathskulls feels really optimal. Optimizing order seems really nice though. What about if you are attacking a unit where a model already has 1 W remaining? Is it worth doping the choppas first to try and shave off a few wounds first?
3) Hmm thats something I hadnt considered. I thought it was okay because if they come down with the tellyporta'd Gork (I mistyped my first post, sorry!) I am safe inside during the charge and can hop out and tag some high armor target or low AP fighter up board. For this one I wanna experience the failure first to see what caused it -- My mind has scenarios where they cannot even be shot at until bottom of turn 3.
4) Great to know! I have never used it in any game. Is it best to use vs high armor targets or high hit rate units? Like, if you had to choose between a plague marine squad about to melee or a plague burst crawler about to get locked up by boyz, which would you target with it? I am new to it so I have no clue.
5) Will keep this in mind. I feel like this list is mobile enough to take engage or domination depending on the number of objectives. For a 4 objective mission, which would you prefer?
Great experiential feedback, I really appreciate it!
Do you think a list with morka / gorka or both is playable? Especially in semi-competitive?
I have two that are collecting dust and I don't want to wait another 6 months to play them (even if we are already waiting long enough for our new codex ).
I try to make lists with but nothing that impresses me to put on a table.
The Morkanaut with the sparkly bitz kustom job is legit good IMO. 18 wounds makes it a bit cumbersome with regards to shooting and obscuring terrain but it's got good shooting, a KFF and decent enough melee.
The Gorkanaut is the lesser of the two, but the slug gubbin kustom job is a proper power upgrade and makes it decent enough to field I think. What I dislike about the gorkanaut is that you basically have to tellyporta it, which means you're spending 2cp (+1 for the kustom job) and quite possibly another 2cp for ramming speed. It makes it really costly, but at least it also becomes quite scary then.
Do you think a list with morka / gorka or both is playable? Especially in semi-competitive?
I have two that are collecting dust and I don't want to wait another 6 months to play them (even if we are already waiting long enough for our new codex ).
I try to make lists with but nothing that impresses me to put on a table.
The morkanaut is a solid addition to any vehicle list, with sparkly bits and a KFF it actually has a decent chance of making back its points or at least massively soften the blow of an alpha-strike against your buggies. Most of my opponents target my scrapjets and SJD first these days, so the naut actually gets to live quite long and causes massive amounts of damage. The large base also makes it good at defending objectives.
The gorkanaut is rather hit-or-miss in my opinion. For many armies, it's rather easy to screen the large base out of valuable targets, and some - like DG or deathwing - might not have any good targets to begin with. The lack of a 5++ means you need to bring a mek along to protect it, or it will get shredded by all those AP-4 and -5 weapons out there. I usually use it to tune down my lists for friendly games.
Both seems like too many eggs in one basket - you can't hide them well and often you don't have enough room to have two giant walkers stoming down the field.
tulun wrote: Mork really needs a durability buff, though.
The Kill tank is 65 points less, has 6 more wounds, ramshackle, and heals itself.
I really hope the Gork and Mork get some love, because Ork dreads are fun AF.
true. its already quite odd that a titanic model has more wounds, cost less and is.. titanic than a unit thats.. not titanic.
On a side note, i understand that the Gargantuan Squiggoth cannot both fallback, then shoot? I was under the assumption that all titanic models could both fall back, and shoot and charge in the same turn. Like it was some rule written somewhere.
tulun wrote: Mork really needs a durability buff, though.
The Kill tank is 65 points less, has 6 more wounds, ramshackle, and heals itself.
I really hope the Gork and Mork get some love, because Ork dreads are fun AF.
true. its already quite odd that a titanic model has more wounds, cost less and is.. titanic than a unit thats.. not titanic.
On a side note, i understand that the Gargantuan Squiggoth cannot both fallback, then shoot? I was under the assumption that all titanic models could both fall back, and shoot and charge in the same turn. Like it was some rule written somewhere.
Titanic can fall back and shoot due to being Titanic. In main rulebook I think.
And yeah. It's a bit silly. I'm guessing the Gork and Mork go Super Heavy, tbh.
tulun wrote: Mork really needs a durability buff, though.
The Kill tank is 65 points less, has 6 more wounds, ramshackle, and heals itself.
I really hope the Gork and Mork get some love, because Ork dreads are fun AF.
true. its already quite odd that a titanic model has more wounds, cost less and is.. titanic than a unit thats.. not titanic.
On a side note, i understand that the Gargantuan Squiggoth cannot both fallback, then shoot? I was under the assumption that all titanic models could both fall back, and shoot and charge in the same turn. Like it was some rule written somewhere.
Titanic can fall back and shoot due to being Titanic. In main rulebook I think.
And yeah. It's a bit silly. I'm guessing the Gork and Mork go Super Heavy, tbh.
so it can fall back and shoot? It just have an ability called "Gargantuan" that states it can fall back and charge, it doesnt say anything about shooting, so that made me confused.
But who knows, maybe the gork/morks will just become cheaper? I dont know. I dont feel like Kill tanks belong to titanic at this price tag to begin with.
Me personally, I think a Morkanaut should just be BS4 base, since it more shooting dependent. A meka-dread is BS4 and that IA compendium is 9th edition based so it might happen. (Obviously sparkly bitz would go away or at the very least can't be stacked on top of that.
The Gorkanaut should be a bit faster so footslogging it feels more tempting IMO. It should certainly be the cheaper of the two but mayb you can also make it base WS2? Side note, does anyone else become sad when you take the slug gubbin and realise how much better that is than an entire dakkajet?
Other than that, give 'em both ramshackle because, as I've stated earlier I think all ork vehicles should have ramshackle. Comparing it to the kill tank (with the giga shoota) in durability is almost a bit unfair considering how cheap those wounds became for some reason. If bringing super heavies weren't such a pain in 9th then the kill tank would be legit good/almost great.
Honestly, I think the Triple KT list is already pretty damn good. I would be unsurprised with a buffed codex that it becomes a real legit list, as it's partially just held back by the CP cost and the general inefficiencies of Orks.
The only thing that might suck about it post codex is we actually might want CP again as Mech Orks.
In all honesty, after weapon tweaks to bring everything up to speed with the global buffs I'm just hoping that our good units stay as they are (maybe some points adjustments here and there), and our not so good stuff just becomes a viable option.
I'm not asking for much, the sub-par units don't even need to be made great. Just an actual option for vaguely competitive games.
I overall think that Orks are actually in a fairly good spot right now, they just need that extra nudge over the line where they can properly go toe to toe with the big boys.
as with any ork codex you can pretty much assume that anything we are used to using now will become suboptimal at best, most likely useless, and anything useless/suboptimal will become amazing.
I'd expect the rukkatrukk squigbuggy to get a solid boost. Because all buggies are individual kits I'm guessing that one has sold by far the worst of the bunch (maybe a lot of people like the model and bought it because of that, but I'd wager it still significantly fewer boxes).
But yeah, I'm not hoping we get 8th IH broken but flipping through the new DG 'dex I'm jealous because almost all of it seems viable. If it lands us at upper B-tier or A-tier isn't the end all be all, just make everything seem usable and I'm happy.
Nah they already sold enough of most of the buggies to sate their sales for awhile.
Squigbuggy and probably the Snazzwagon might get buffed but i suspect the others to get whacked.
Definitely the scrapjet and the dragstas, no way are those going to be kept the absolute cream of the crop without some sort of points hike.
One thing I am definitely looking forward to are more interesting WL traits and relics. It's gotten pretty boring seeing only the Killa Klaw and two or three WL traits being taken out in most games. It's a shame almost all the Klan WL traits are suboptimal, I'd love it if we could build more CC monsters than just 1 HQ or Big Meks/Painboyz with more utility than just their base wargear.
tulun wrote: it is almost funny how hilariously bad the Squigbuggy is.
It was the most expensive of the bunch at 140 -- went down 40 points, and was still untakeable.
It even got an PSYCHOTICALLY good upgrade in Saga -- +1 to wound -- and it's *still* worse than its cousins.
I hope they give the thing some love, because the kit is great.
I recently ran three of them, and I honestly have no idea how it is supposed kill anything without the +1 to wound. Most of its value comes from having the buggy profile, it really feels like having snazzwagon without all the defensive benefits for more points.
Me and my friends argued they should just get grinding advance. Then they could probably do a decent job of being an all rounder, but surely even GW must've realised that the statline sucks considering the kustom job they gave it. I think GW just vastly overvalued how much that squig mine actually ends up doing in any games.
I never did get around to buying 3 and running them with the kustom job (which seems like the only viable way to run 'em), did they end up doing anything then Jidmah?
Well, mostly no. They didn't do nothing, but the bile squig lacks AP to threaten infantry or monsters, the bitey squig has too few shots to matter. The only "good" shot is the boom squig(even when targeting light infantry!), but against its preferred targets, it either wounds on 4+ or loses the few shots that get through due to rolling d3 armor against 2 or 3 wound infantry. All modes have the same problem of simply not causing enough unsaved wounds.
It's also mildly annoying that the regular squig launcher hits on 5+ while the heavy launcher hits on 4s, forcing you to roll them separately.
The mine really doesn't work well due to the traffic-jam problem of buggy lists. The mine is triggered by friend and foe, so I was unable to drop the mines in a meaningful way until the very last turn, where I blocked a wounded farseer from assaulting a lone grot by dropping a mine in between them. Two out of three squigbuggies were dead at that point.
The one redeeming quality of a rukkatrukk is that they have a sawblade and an extra wound, making it at least somewhat able to fight in melee. The extra AP and strength actually make a huge difference when fighting T3 infantry.
There really is no competitive reason to run them ever. Even the snazzwagon is a great unit in comparison.
That pretty much confirms all my suspicions (and mirrors my own experience when I've used one of them).
Maybe GW won't buff their shooting too much but instead just give all those squigs a CC profile as well? If they made it into a CC blender then at least mechanically it'd be a bit more interesting. Or make it shoot without LoS (which'd be okay even though the damage is still super unimpressive).
Speaking of the snazzwagon, I ran it a couple of times recently and didn't hate it. Park it on an objective and enemies are loathe to shoot at it since it doesn't do much and has hard to hit. Honestly the biggest drawback for me is that I don't want to waste an entire FA slot on a singular buggy. Is it better than a KBB? No, but it's at least fun to use a couple of different datasheets every once in a while.. And I don't think it requires too much of a buff for it to be genuinely viable
PiñaColada wrote: That pretty much confirms all my suspicions (and mirrors my own experience when I've used one of them).
Maybe GW won't buff their shooting too much but instead just give all those squigs a CC profile as well? If they made it into a CC blender then at least mechanically it'd be a bit more interesting. Or make it shoot without LoS (which'd be okay even though the damage is still super unimpressive).
Speaking of the snazzwagon, I ran it a couple of times recently and didn't hate it. Park it on an objective and enemies are loathe to shoot at it since it doesn't do much and has hard to hit. Honestly the biggest drawback for me is that I don't want to waste an entire FA slot on a singular buggy. Is it better than a KBB? No, but it's at least fun to use a couple of different datasheets every once in a while.. And I don't think it requires too much of a buff for it to be genuinely viable
Their is so much potential in the buggies if only GW wanted to make them more balanced and interesting. Lets see if we get any new models that shifts the hotness away from mass boyz or buggy spam.
Non-LOS shooting would be cool for the squigbuggy, but more than that I would enjoy them to be some sort of buff or heal vehice i.e. to boyz (after all its a FOODTRUCK).
What I recon will go away is the buggy squad upgrades aka kustom jobs for all three and also potentially the interaction with WWSWF as that feels awful.
I recently ran three of them, and I honestly have no idea how it is supposed kill anything without the +1 to wound. Most of its value comes from having the buggy profile, it really feels like having snazzwagon without all the defensive benefits for more points.
I think they really thought the flexibility of the gun would make it really appealing.
That's a big nope GW.
Honestly, my suggested fix -- make the gun better (more AP), and be able to shoot out of line of sight. Then it fulfills a niche Orks basically have 0 of -- non-LOS shooting.
Afrodactyl wrote: In all honesty, after weapon tweaks to bring everything up to speed with the global buffs I'm just hoping that our good units stay as they are (maybe some points adjustments here and there), and our not so good stuff just becomes a viable option.
I'm not asking for much, the sub-par units don't even need to be made great. Just an actual option for vaguely competitive games.
I overall think that Orks are actually in a fairly good spot right now, they just need that extra nudge over the line where they can properly go toe to toe with the big boys.
See, i'm not sold on this for a couple reasons.
1: As i have mentioned in the past, I'm not convinced GW is going to give orkz the same level of upgrades to similar weapons they gave to Speese Mehreens. I will not be shocked if Gdubz doesn't upgrade the big shootas at all. Maybe give them a point reduction to...4pts but honestly not at all surprised if nothing happens.
2: I don't think orkz are in a good place in regards to competitive gaming. We compete but only by being a counter-meta to the dominant lists right now. When 1/3rd of the game shows up with a horde of multi-wound infantry and special weapons designed to kill multi-wound infantry, and the remaining players show up with lists to beat them, orkz by contrast show up with 180+ cheap, throwaway infantry that are "relatively" durable for their points if they are buffed with a KFF and/or Painboy.
If you show up to a truly competitive tournament against the current meta lists with Ork buggies you will get gutted by turn 2. I've seen some success with meganobz, but I'm not sold on that yet either, I think the only solid competitive list orkz have is spamming goff boyz and holding objectives as long as you can with Ghaz floating around as a potential beat stick.
Vineheart01 wrote: as with any ork codex you can pretty much assume that anything we are used to using now will become suboptimal at best, most likely useless, and anything useless/suboptimal will become amazing.
Except burnas, they never get a spotlight.
Mek Gunz stayed pretty damn good since 7th, boyz have been a solid option for a long time now, the stompa has been terribad forever So really it just becomes a matter of what random intern GW hires to "write" the ork codex.
Tomsug wrote: I saw there are some online TTS tournaments. Does anybody played it already?
My tournament friends attend regulalry the fex TTS tournaments in French organised by the WTC "French TOs". They even played against the/a (i don't know) ukranien team. They are having a great time, but apparently you need to use the clock to avoid getting sucked into 7 hour games.
They seem to be having fun, once the entry cost of learning to use the damn thing is payed. I manage to get enough "real" 40k for now (once every 10 days more or less) but we might get a new lockdown in the paris area soon, so perhaps I'll give it a try too (I really don't want to be behind a screen instead of "in person" on the weekend though...).
You know what i think could be cool but uncertain if we would ever need?
Storm Nobz!
Looking over battlescribe and thinking about buying warbikers or Nobz on bikes, it would appear that battlescribe has the wrong amount of points for Nobz on bikes, as well as having them in the wrong category still.
Because ive grown quite fond of evil sunz, so i wanted some sort of fast infantry type. Maybe ill try out some stormboyz, but its a bit sad that Stormboyz, being regular boyz with rockets on their backs, dont retain the Greentide" ability to gain one more attack when above 20 models.
Honestly you could have that for any unit entry. An elite more heavily armed version of the standard unit. You have bikers and nob bikers. Boyz and nob units. Lootaz and Flashgitz.
Having Nob Kommando, tankbustas, Burna and Stormboyz units would all be fairly fun and interesting. Pay a little extra for better weapons and the extra wounds, maybe a special rule here and there. (I do hope GW drops the ld buff nobz have in exchange for something else or a point or two less.)
I think i would run them with double choppas to keep them cheap, but since they're fast they can tie up enemies and still put the hurt to lightly armored infantry while the rest of your army makes way. AND since they have 2 wounds, using the full throttle wouldnt necessarily instantly kill a nob when it fails.
But ofc we dont have this so that doesnt matter. Guess ill have to do that with warbikers or normal Stormboyz.
Edit:
When it comes to tankhammer tankbustas and Goffs, which of the rules take priority? the tankhammers ability to only have 1 attack, or the Goff ability to gain an extra hit roll in case you rolled a 6? i mean it would be pretty cool to have an extra hit in case you get lucky with tankhammers.
Also, got another game with the triple killtank list. Backed up by some smashagunz, 2 trukks with minimum Meganobs inside. Troops were the 30 boyz to make mech seizures go off easily and then min size grot mobs that rode around in the kill tanks.
Opponent was a white scars player with 2 big blade guard units with all the buffs you can imagine and a few other support units or troops. He did make a few mistakes, like the white scars doctrine and khan's buffs only working on the charge or intervention. Not when I charged him. Can't say that would have changed the game, but the tanks second kill tank would have likely lived a turn longer (the third was one of the few units left I had at the end)
But otherwise it went as you'd expect. I rumbled up the field, did a good amount of damage, was winning until he hit that turn three powerspike and managed to shove me back. Meganobz put in the work. Killing some characters, krumping some units despite their size. Grots jumped out of the tanks mid game, huddled on some objectives and gradually died (the morale changes do keep them alive longer which is nice) Boyz let me pass siezures out easily enough and also did some good work late game wounding some characters and killing some smaller units. Lost the game sadly by about 5 points as the terrain (short board edge deployment) is a bit of a hassle for any vehicle list and he hid out of LOS rather well first turn.
Honestly as is i'm pretty happy with the list. Though I do get greener with envy when comparing the buffs marines can hand out vs our much megre ones. Meks need something special in regards to traits or relics. A buffed KFF would be nice, the ability to improve vehicles would be another option. ATM I just have him for slightly improved healing and the extra CP/run and charge on infantry every now and then. He just can't keep up with the vehicles who want to be running forward. And our painboyz are so laughably weak compared to a buffed apothecary. Some sort of Orky steroid or revive mechanic would be very much appreciated.
cody.d. wrote: Also, got another game with the triple killtank list. Backed up by some smashagunz, 2 trukks with minimum Meganobs inside. Troops were the 30 boyz to make mech seizures go off easily and then min size grot mobs that rode around in the kill tanks.
Opponent was a white scars player with 2 big blade guard units with all the buffs you can imagine and a few other support units or troops. He did make a few mistakes, like the white scars doctrine and khan's buffs only working on the charge or intervention. Not when I charged him. Can't say that would have changed the game, but the tanks second kill tank would have likely lived a turn longer (the third was one of the few units left I had at the end)
But otherwise it went as you'd expect. I rumbled up the field, did a good amount of damage, was winning until he hit that turn three powerspike and managed to shove me back. Meganobz put in the work. Killing some characters, krumping some units despite their size. Grots jumped out of the tanks mid game, huddled on some objectives and gradually died (the morale changes do keep them alive longer which is nice) Boyz let me pass siezures out easily enough and also did some good work late game wounding some characters and killing some smaller units. Lost the game sadly by about 5 points as the terrain (short board edge deployment) is a bit of a hassle for any vehicle list and he hid out of LOS rather well first turn.
Honestly as is i'm pretty happy with the list. Though I do get greener with envy when comparing the buffs marines can hand out vs our much megre ones. Meks need something special in regards to traits or relics. A buffed KFF would be nice, the ability to improve vehicles would be another option. ATM I just have him for slightly improved healing and the extra CP/run and charge on infantry every now and then. He just can't keep up with the vehicles who want to be running forward. And our painboyz are so laughably weak compared to a buffed apothecary. Some sort of Orky steroid or revive mechanic would be very much appreciated.
Awesome to hear the Kill Tank list still has some teef! It's interesting that we both had similar games against White Scars when using a triple Kill Tank list, it really is key to try and burst them down before the T3 kill-boost they get from their doctrine.
Definitely agree regarding needing stronger support units though, I feel like they're basically the new hotness when it comes to HQ's, less about being a smash captain and more about force multipliers that you can hand out. Would love for the KFF just to be a 5+ invuln against shooting if a unit is within 6" rather than the wholly within we have now since our base sizes for our buggies is so huge. Likewise, I'd like to see them to add an overcharge option/buff for a single Ork unit where we get an additional AP on our shooting weapons or we get an additional hit for DDD! when we roll a 6 (assuming this is how DDD! gets reworded in our codex) but hit rolls of 1 cause mortal wounds or something. Little Meks in particular need a buff, it'd be nice if they could give a passive or active buff to Ork vehicles so they can actually tend to Mek Gunz or other vehicles like they should be. Painboyz should either revive units like you've said or some kind of combat drug buff to Orks so that he's not just some overpriced FNP bubble. I'd also like to see Runtherds have a bigger role in making Gretchin units relevant, maybe buffing their Grot Shield rule or damage output in some way so he does stuff for Mek Gunz and Kanz?
I think that's the fun thing for rules designers when working on xenos lists. You can be a little wacky and silly. Just seems like they're usually more conservative with the power level compared to what the marines get.
I would kinda agree and disagree? For whatever reason, it seems like almost all the interesting wacky and cool rules writers are doing their work in AoS than 40katm. Barring a few outliers like with GSC and Necrons, I wouldn't say too many xenos have too much of a wacky ruleset. Tau are basically all about being "shooting phase, the army" as their gimmick, Eldar are all about psychic powers and glass cannons in CC and shooting. The problem is that in their attempts to revamp and sell more marine models that they steal or take from other armies' design space to do so, which is why there's such a disparity between 9th ed codices and the current 8th ed ones we have now.
I had a game againts tripple killtank with 60 boyz and some character list yeasterday with my buggy list. So it was orks vs. orks.
Interesting is, that the game has the similar scenario. Killtanks went first and ruble stright across the board. Two of the killtanks killed 2 of my 8 buggies and died in turn 2 (very bad roi imho..), last killtank magically survived T3 with “only 5 and 6 to save and Ramshackle” miracle againts about 10+ wounds by various rokket/smasgun equivalents, killed more buggies and died turn after. A lot of boyz died in the meantime. Almost non of them were mine.
So in T4 it was: my 2 buggies, deffrola batlewagon, big trakk, wazboom, 3 kommando squads, 2x10boy squad, 100% healthy pimped up megamek and kaptin baldruk vs. 1x30 boys and painboy and the rest was clear....
Buggies win something like 89:81.
Tripple Killtank list had not enough dakka to kill my buggies. But three huge monsters rubling fast over the board and dealing damage in cc were scary. And hold me in my deploy fight for my objectives for long enough to allow him score 45VP on primaries.
On other hand, it was sweet 15VP for Titan Hunter, and thanks of the lack of his screening pretty free 15VP for Engage and 10 for Scramblers. Linebreaker will be even more effective.
Anyway very nice game, very tight in the first turns and very interesting.
I would suggest to combine the killtanks with some kind of trukkboyz or buggies to spam one type of target. My KBB was pretty happy having enemy boyz to shoot at. The same my boyz...
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the other hand....
If I repley in my mind my games againts other armies recently (some deadguard termies, some raven guard jetpackers with shields, some sisters) they had a problem to kill my buggies also due the lack of antitank weapons. So they could have a problem to kill the killtanks too. And two giga shootas will definitely do something to such armies.
Except that they've taken a step back with the wackyness.
Just look at the Mega dreads Mega charge and Grot mega tanks. They were streamlined with the new forge world rules update from where before, they had some really high risk high reward abilities, where you rolled a dice, and based on the outcome, you were either screwed or buffed exceptionally
High risk, high reward doesn't work in a game with 5 turns when most units only live for one or two turns.
All these units will inevitable be garbage when you don't get your reward and totally OP when you do.
Random works well when you either have medium risk, medium reward like random number of shots or high risk bonus effects, like the flash gits extra turn of shooting.
As I understand the 9th ed game system, you have 2 possible game plans:
1) rush forward and stuck your opponent in his deploy to control the field on beginning and get your VP and block his. To do this, you need the units, that takes a time to kill and can move fast forward.
2) hold back for turn or two and kill by shooting the right units and than control the field, get VPs and stop opponent in gaining his.
If your army is too soft and do plan 1, you are dead in T3 and you lost.
If your army has not enough dakka to really kill the right units to T3 and than move fast enough to get the points, you lost also.
This is a brutal simplification with a lot of “but” and “except” and “and”, but I mean it hit' s the point.
Green tide is gameplan 1.
Buggies plays gameplan 2, because soft+shooty+fast.
Mostly people I meet on TTS play something like Gameplan 1 - wet dream is a shield terminator with jetpack moving twice or something like this....
Orks except greentide struggle to do gameplan 1, because only Meganobz or tons of boyz can play this. Or some evil sunz Gorkonaut magic maybe...
With “new” FW rules, there is tripple Killtank option, that offers a third option for gameplan 1 scenario with large vehicles. The question is, how to backup him? The key is to spam one type of targets and control the field imho.
Ive grown very fond of evil Sunz so i always do gameplan one on that one.
Charge one or two Bonebreakers with MANZ in them and gorkanaut (orkymatic pistons) and warboss on warbike in to the enemy ranks in turn one. (sadly i dont have any warbikers or nobz on warbikes so those are excluded). Then groups of Boyz walk up the field to take points meanwhile. i only recently got my hands on 5 deffkoptas so ive yet to try them.
I often have a single weirdboy with a gunwagon --> Da Boomer for long range support to deal with pesky tanks in the backlines im otherwise blocked from reaching turn one.
It is true that i have almost no infantry left at turn 4 and 5, so im in need of really holding back my enemy so much by turn 1 and 2 and hopefully turn 3, that they dont recover.
It is risky though, but also highly satisfying when it works.
sometimes i pay 1 extra CP for another shiny gubbinz (my warboss on warbike has da killa klaw) to give a character REZMEKKA’S REDDER ARMOUR, and then slam it inside the gorkanaut with Orkymatic pistons so he'll go from 8 to 11 and 11 to 12 movement with rezmekkas armor and 12 to 13 because of evil sunz trait. Often its a Big Mek with KFF sitting inside.
suprisingly the character using REZMEKKA’S REDDER ARMOUR needs to be evil sunz but still gives the +1 movement bonus and D3 damage ability when he sits inside a vehicle thats NOT evil sunz, so you could put him inside an auxillary gargantuan squiggoth, stompa, kill tank or kustom stompa and still buff it.
Grot Mega/Grot Tanks did not have high risk high reward, they had high risk moderate reward. 2D6 movement is not a high reward, its either slow as balls or moderate speed. Mega Tanks' D6 chance to fire at +1 or not fire at all was not anywhere near as high a reward as the high risk is; as +1 to hit was great yes but not being able to shoot at all for equal chances is pretty bad.
Every time Orks have had a seemingly "fun" and/or "randomly good" power its been far more negative than positive on effectiveness. I'm glad theyre finally stopping that crap, i shouldnt need to roll a 1/6th chance per turn to be able to feel like my unit wasnt a waste of points.
Vineheart01 wrote: Grot Mega/Grot Tanks did not have high risk high reward, they had high risk moderate reward.
2D6 movement is not a high reward, its either slow as balls or moderate speed.
Mega Tanks' D6 chance to fire at +1 or not fire at all was not anywhere near as high a reward as the high risk is; as +1 to hit was great yes but not being able to shoot at all for equal chances is pretty bad.
Every time Orks have had a seemingly "fun" and/or "randomly good" power its been far more negative than positive on effectiveness. I'm glad theyre finally stopping that crap, i shouldnt need to roll a 1/6th chance per turn to be able to feel like my unit wasnt a waste of points.
Pretty much, Orks randomness when GW writes it tends to be very swingy more towards the weaker side of things, look at bubblechukkas for example. Having 6's on everything isn't worth the chance of getting 1's for all your stats for shooting. Unlike SM, we also don't have any ways of mitigating or paying to make it more consistent. Marines have the option to overcharge plasma for very tangible and predictable benefits of +1S and +1D, but at the cost of dying on rolls of one. Buuuuut they have a ready supply of reroll auras and abilities so you basically have a very low chance of that happening. So given that our army doesn't run on reroll auras, I'd much prefer what Jidmah said, with medium risk/reward or just having flat out normal variability with some options to boost stuff with Meks or something rather than go back to WACKY WACKY RANDOM TABLES. Trust me you do NOT want to go back to our old version of mob rule....
Yeah because rolling a dice to everything and then let friends wait while you thinking what to do with total random characteristic of the unit / weapon is super fun.
Honestly, what is fine on playing TTS againts greentide ork is the fact, you can workout, cook, watch a movie or whatever while your opponents try to move all his boyz and roll all dices... Doing something like this IRL would be pretty rude...
Vineheart01 wrote: Grot Mega/Grot Tanks did not have high risk high reward, they had high risk moderate reward.
2D6 movement is not a high reward, its either slow as balls or moderate speed.
Mega Tanks' D6 chance to fire at +1 or not fire at all was not anywhere near as high a reward as the high risk is; as +1 to hit was great yes but not being able to shoot at all for equal chances is pretty bad.
Every time Orks have had a seemingly "fun" and/or "randomly good" power its been far more negative than positive on effectiveness. I'm glad theyre finally stopping that crap, i shouldnt need to roll a 1/6th chance per turn to be able to feel like my unit wasnt a waste of points.
Yep. I'd love for orkz to be random, but it has to be balanced. My fall back example is always the old SAG rules. You had 1 REALLY good roll (double 6s) and a host of really bad ones. Not to mention that it was D6 shots hitting on 5s, so you only ever average 1 hit a turn.
I'm looking at all the love for killtanks and I'm thinking of trying to squeeze one into my Wagon list. What's the optimal loadout for one, and how big should I make it?
Honestly I enjoy both versions of the kill tank. The Bursta has a nice hit, but the supa shoota hits a lot. One's great for gravis armour, bladeguard and many more. The other will slap some wounds onto most targets.
If taking it in a wagon list I guess just take whichever fills the gap you feel you have.
Tomsug wrote: Beardedragon - and have you tried to mix it with some buggies? Let' s say advancing scrapjets?
What I saw yesterday is, that opponent big machines + boyz = total shooting effectivnes of my buggies. That' s a pitty
yes! i have but the problem is i only have 1 scrapjet, 1 dragsta and one KBB :( but i really WANT to mix in more buggies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Grot Mega/Grot Tanks did not have high risk high reward, they had high risk moderate reward.
2D6 movement is not a high reward, its either slow as balls or moderate speed.
Mega Tanks' D6 chance to fire at +1 or not fire at all was not anywhere near as high a reward as the high risk is; as +1 to hit was great yes but not being able to shoot at all for equal chances is pretty bad.
Every time Orks have had a seemingly "fun" and/or "randomly good" power its been far more negative than positive on effectiveness. I'm glad theyre finally stopping that crap, i shouldnt need to roll a 1/6th chance per turn to be able to feel like my unit wasnt a waste of points.
i meant its roll a D6 and there might be a mutiny, might nothing happen at all, or you might shoot all weapons at ONE target but add 1 to hitt rolls. that meant all the 7 what ever cannons you had on the Grot mega tank would hit on 3s. that was a fun risk reward thing that could be absolute dogshite or absolute godlike.
Highly impractical because you could end up not shooting at all, but the idea of wacky risk reward rules can be enjoyable if they're just made properly. Not that they necessarily have been made up till this point though.
any random chance innate to a unit's own datasheet that can take it away for a turn is a bad mechanic. Doesnt matter how amazing it is if it works.
Look at guard's .. what was it Deathstrike missiles that virtually never went off but if they did they basically won in the past? Nobody used it because it never did anything, even though the potential was insane.
Galas wrote: If you want to see how ork randomness should be designed one should look at Clan Skryre rules for Age of Sigmar.
Thats a "high risk high reward" ruleset done good, specially because you CHOSE when to take the risk, instead of it being forced onto you.
yes and its the "done right" part thats important.
I mean lets be real, if they're gonna make any faction have some wacky rules, its the Orks. So its either us or none at all, for 40k that is.
Im not saying we NEED it or anything, just it could be fun to have. or interesting.
If done correctly to maybe a few units. But i also understand that i could eventually grow to hate the wackiness and then writing this would come back to bite me in the ass later.
Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.
I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.
Snake Tortoise wrote: Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.
I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.
Yup. That's accurate.
They've a 5/9 hit rate, before Moar Dakka. Add that in, and you get 5/9+25/81, or 45/81+25/81 for a total of 70/81 hit rate. 86%, to take the fractions away.
That being said... That's how many points and CP on a fragile unit outside their transport, exactly? Since you can't use Moar Dakka on a squad that's in a vehicle.
Snake Tortoise wrote: Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.
I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.
Now throw on Showin' off to do it all again! Scrap 2 heavy vehicles a turn with your squishy tankbustas. Always satisfying honestly.
But yes, you get to use the re-rolls on the additional shots generated by Dakka Dakka Dakka.
i kinda wish we could use stratagems on the tankbustas while they are embarked though so those fragile units didnt have to leave the comforts of the vehicle to be able to deal a ton of damage with showing off and more dakka.
Snake Tortoise wrote: Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.
I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.
Yup. That's accurate.
They've a 5/9 hit rate, before Moar Dakka. Add that in, and you get 5/9+25/81, or 45/81+25/81 for a total of 70/81 hit rate. 86%, to take the fractions away.
That being said... That's how many points and CP on a fragile unit outside their transport, exactly? Since you can't use Moar Dakka on a squad that's in a vehicle.
More CP because basicly you need to Tellyport them to keep them alive over T1
Snake Tortoise wrote: Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.
I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.
Yup. That's accurate.
They've a 5/9 hit rate, before Moar Dakka. Add that in, and you get 5/9+25/81, or 45/81+25/81 for a total of 70/81 hit rate. 86%, to take the fractions away.
That being said... That's how many points and CP on a fragile unit outside their transport, exactly? Since you can't use Moar Dakka on a squad that's in a vehicle.
Thanks
It's painfully expensive and a gamble if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles, but seems fun and very fluffy for Snakebites
I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.
I've put together another version of my wagon list, this time with a kill tank. I managed to squeeze in a handful of quick games while proxying one. I really like the addition of the kill tank so far.
If people could take a look and let me know what needs changing and what could improve it would be much appreciated.
Snake Tortoise wrote: Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.
I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.
Now throw on Showin' off to do it all again! Scrap 2 heavy vehicles a turn with your squishy tankbustas. Always satisfying honestly.
But yes, you get to use the re-rolls on the additional shots generated by Dakka Dakka Dakka.
That combo was a staple in my early 8th edition lists. But required 6 CPs (tellyporta, more dakka, showing off) so worked good on 18+ CPs lists before SotB was released. Now it's a crazy investments of CPs.
I think 10 outflanking (1CP) tankbustas + 4 bomb squigs + More Dakka (2CP) are a solid compromise in 9th edition. Not too expensive both points and CP wise but capable of getting their points back with good odds. Alternatively 10+2 bomb squigs in a trukk but they require a list very heavy on similar targets like tons of buggies and some of those must pressure the opponent in order to get prioritized and leave the trukk alive for a turn at least.
Jidmah wrote: I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.
Jidmah wrote: I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.
Can you explain this last part?
Bomb squigs only hit on 2s and deal good damage. so if he can somehow get the tankbustas close with a trukk or something, they might be able to shoot at actual characters if the characters are the closest model.
Jidmah wrote: I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.
Can you explain this last part?
Often when there is no vehicle that needs blowing up, or if you face an army where bomb squigs are useless like against harlequins, I often try to tellyport in the tankbustas in a way that the bomb squigs can target a character while the rest of the unit goes after elite infantry. Four bomb squigs are usually enough to end anything that doesn't have any additional layers of defense. That way you can usually still make a good trade for your suicide unit despite not having any optimal targets.
Nobz on warbikes, 100%. They're the same slot now, barely more expensive and more durable. Not to mention that they have actual weapon options. 9 of them with big choppas were actually pretty decent up until I started facing new DG all the time. Use the strat to give 'em +1S and they'll punch through most things decently well
PiñaColada wrote: Nobz on warbikes, 100%. They're the same slot now, barely more expensive and more durable. Not to mention that they have actual weapon options. 9 of them with big choppas were actually pretty decent up until I started facing new DG all the time. Use the strat to give 'em +1S and they'll punch through most things decently well
I see. My plan was to drive up with something and just hold the enemy for turn 1 while the rest of the army arrives the turn later or, if they are lucky, on the same turn. I was wondering if i wasted points on the Nobz then rather than the warbikers
Jidmah wrote: I agree with the pineapple. Neither is a great choice, but nobz are definitely are more durable and better equipped to get units off objectives.
alright. ill not buy the warbikers then, because i wanted to buy some for my evil sunz army. Guess ill put my money on a dakkajet or a burna bomma despite that not being for evil sunz necessarily (i just want one and dont have one).
Hey is there any update on when the list on page one will get updated? Because this list has been super useful when i first started gathering orks, and still is.
Do you wait untill nations start opening up again for more tournements? or perhabs the codex to drop first? I could understand either way.
btw the Munitorum Field Manual Updated 04/02/2021
puts Nobz on warbikes in elite spot and the warbikers in fast attack? I dont see them being in the same spot.
I don't want to speak for Jid since he's the one doing the work, but I doubt there's going to be any real overhauls on the 1st page until we get the new codex (which is probably dropping in the spring). So while a couple of things here and there maybe should be dropped/bumped a tier most of that list is still accurate.
Regarding nobz on warbikes and slots, their latest datasheet is actually in the Imperial Armour Compendium which gave them a 5 point shave and moved them into the fast attack slot. It's a bit strange but that book has gotten FAQed and nothing was changed so for now those guys are 30ppm and in the FA slot. While I don't think they're necessarily great I don't think they're hampering your lists too hard either, so if you like the models then I wouldn't veer away from them.
And as of right now, get a burna bomma over a dakkajet. But maybe just magnetise the bombs and you can run it as either. The wazbom is actually great for evil sunz speed freeks otherwise since it's a KFF that's fast enough to keep up with the army.
PiñaColada wrote: I don't want to speak for Jid since he's the one doing the work, but I doubt there's going to be any real overhauls on the 1st page until we get the new codex (which is probably dropping in the spring). So while a couple of things here and there maybe should be dropped/bumped a tier most of that list is still accurate.
Regarding nobz on warbikes and slots, their latest datasheet is actually in the Imperial Armour Compendium which gave them a 5 point shave and moved them into the fast attack slot. It's a bit strange but that book has gotten FAQed and nothing was changed so for now those guys are 30ppm and in the FA slot. While I don't think they're necessarily great I don't think they're hampering your lists too hard either, so if you like the models then I wouldn't veer away from them.
And as of right now, get a burna bomma over a dakkajet. But maybe just magnetise the bombs and you can run it as either. The wazbom is actually great for evil sunz speed freeks otherwise since it's a KFF that's fast enough to keep up with the army.
but isnt the newest updated FAQ the correct one? the one that states the warbikers and Nobz on warbikes are are in different category
The problem is that even in the newest FAQ they're still listed twice. It's a bit murky and GW has definitely screwed up somewhere but their most recent datasheet is in the IA compendium so that's the correct one to use unless explicitly stated elsewhere AFAIK.
On page 35 they're 35ppm and an elite slot, but on page 50 they're still 30ppm and a fast attack slot. Basically GW has accidentally made a distinction between the Ork codex and IA:C datasheet entry. I've written and asked them about it, but they haven't answered nor addressed the issue officially.
PiñaColada wrote: The problem is that even in the newest FAQ they're still listed twice. It's a bit murky and GW has definitely screwed up somewhere but their most recent datasheet is in the IA compendium so that's the correct one to use unless explicitly stated elsewhere AFAIK.
On page 35 they're 35ppm and an elite slot, but on page 50 they're still 30ppm and a fast attack slot. Basically GW has accidentally made a distinction between the Ork codex and IA:C datasheet entry. I've written and asked them about it, but they haven't answered nor addressed the issue officially.
and that FAQ do not show the Nob warbikers as being listed twice, only once for 35 points per model in the elite slot, and warbikers in the fast attack slot for 27 points per model. I have to admit, i dont understand what you mean that in the newest FAQ they are listed twice, because the newest FAQ is the one i just listed here and the one im looking at right now.
Unless you mean the Nob on warbikes are listed twice because they are listed in the FWFAQ compendium but also here? im guessing they just updated it and slammed the Nobz on warbikes back in to the elite slot, looking at this FAQ, rather than making them fast attack. Maybe to actually make a difference between Warbikers and nobz on warbikes.
Look at page 35, those are the FAQed points for the Orks 8th edition codex. There the nobz on warbikes are listed at 35ppm and as an Elite slot.
Look at page 50, that's the FAQ for the Imperial Armour: Compendium. There the nobz on warbikes are listed at 30ppm and as a Fast Attack slot.
The page 35 points cost and slot was there before the IA:C was released (since the start of 9th) and hasn't been touched since. Whereas GW presumably looked over the contents of the IA:C during its FAQ window and okayed everything there. I think they've simply forgotten to update the page 35 entry but there's no way to know. Either way, they're played as 30ppm and FA right now, which is completely rules legal.
wait that doesnt make any sense. thanks for clarifying that for me. So how do i know which one is the correct one? Should i assume the FW one is the correct one?
That also means that Nob warbikers only cost 30 points per model rather than 35. thats freaking huge.
Nob warbikers are damn cheap now compared to warbikers then! thats 240 points for 8 nob bikers if they dont take any special equipment.
It's a little tricky isn't it? But as I suppose you'd be using the FW datasheet you should use the FW points right? We really are waiting for that codex drop to clear up a few things.
Yeah, list building has gotten a little stale for me besides playing around with some of the FW units, I'm looking forward to a shake-up to the usual army lists with an update.
Oh yeah, that's the thing i'm looking forward to most when our codex comes out. I don't mind if it's not the most powerful book released, just as long as it's got some fun new lists to Zog around with.
Jidmah wrote: I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.
Can you explain this last part?
Often when there is no vehicle that needs blowing up, or if you face an army where bomb squigs are useless like against harlequins, I often try to tellyport in the tankbustas in a way that the bomb squigs can target a character while the rest of the unit goes after elite infantry. Four bomb squigs are usually enough to end anything that doesn't have any additional layers of defense. That way you can usually still make a good trade for your suicide unit despite not having any optimal targets.
Man I just have a hard time seeing the benefit of tankbustas. If everything works out perfectly, you suicide 210 pts and 3 CP to kill 1 character and some elites in round 2? Or maybe a T7 vehicle (15 wounds on average with more dakka)? T8 and the odds say only 3 shots go through something with a 3+ save, so you're doing a measly 9 damage to most T8 vehicles.
What am I missing?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also don't understand why you would assume you can target a character with the bomb squigs. They would still have to be the closest model. No one is going to allow you to pull that off when they know your tankbustas are in reserve.
Remember that with the new character rules you don't have to have the target be the closest model any more. You can also kill most of the models around them till you can target said character. All depends on how wide a front the enemy is presenting. With 40K being what it is currently you usually will only have to knock a couple of units down to less than 3 models. With ork's dakka that's achievable.
cody.d. wrote: Remember that with the new character rules you don't have to have the target be the closest model any more. You can also kill most of the models around them till you can target said character. All depends on how wide a front the enemy is presenting. With 40K being what it is currently you usually will only have to knock a couple of units down to less than 3 models. With ork's dakka that's achievable.
Pretty much this. Not that many people are used to the new character protection rules regarding LoS in 9th ed., where you need to be significantly more castled to adequately protect HQ's. For your opponent to sufficiently protect them the entire game, that makes them have to either hang back in their deployment surrounded by units or be in the middle of the board with said units, the former will likely lead to them losing to you on primaries for the game, while the latter makes it extremely unlikely that you won't have at least one turn where attrition has taken its toll and you can target at least one character that has been left out of position.
Character is in wide open? Can shoot.
Character is within 3" of a vehicle/monster or 3 models unit and not the closest model? Cant shoot.
Character is within 3" of a vehicle/monster or 3 models unit and is the closest model? Can shoot.
The weird part is even if hes within 3 of something, but closer than those models, you still cant shoot the character if something is closer, despite not being within 3 of that character.
So yeah, if there's a landraider near the firing unit and another 48 inches away with a character standing right in front of it. Pretty sure you can't target said character because the boxes are ticked as odd as that is.
Vineheart01 wrote: well the issue is GW has this dumb "no model no rules" mentality and TECHNICALLY there isnt any nobbikers from GW, but there are from FW.
So thats why the datasheet moved.
Technically Nob biker models do exist, they just require you to buy multiple boxes of warbikers to make a unit and a box or two of nobs if you want any kind of model customisation.
Vineheart01 wrote: well the issue is GW has this dumb "no model no rules" mentality and TECHNICALLY there isnt any nobbikers from GW, but there are from FW.
So thats why the datasheet moved.
Technically Nob biker models do exist, they just require you to buy multiple boxes of warbikers to make a unit and a box or two of nobs if you want any kind of model customisation.
yea. you gotta buy Nob hands at least if you wanna customize.
Beardedragon wrote: That reminds me, if you guys had to go for either warbikers or Nobz on warbikes, which would you choose?
possibly for an evil Sunz army
Nobz on warbike all with special weapons. Which combination is up to you and available points, but don't field slugga/choppa models, or at least no more than a single one. Personally I'd give 2-3 PKs and 3-2 big choppas to a 5 man unit. I wouldn't bring more models as Blast weapons would tear them apart too easily.
Last ork bat rep posted on Tabletoptactics had 2x5 Evil Sunz units of biker nobz, all stock except the squad leader with the klaw. The player used them to charge tanks (chimeras) without even scratching them. So if you want stock bikers for their speed, shooting without penalties and tarpit something early game just bring regular ones.
Ork bikers, in general, have seen a decline in use since 8ed dropped. They can't be used as tarpids or missiles as they are both too fragile and the klaws don't do what they used to. Also, point cost is currently stupidly high.
That out of the way, point cost consistency has been messed up in the FAQ as explained by several posters. What I have decided is to shelve them until, at least, the new codex comes out.
If you are looking for a unit that will perform similarly to the old bikers, look into the koptas with h.shootas.
Beardedragon wrote: That reminds me, if you guys had to go for either warbikers or Nobz on warbikes, which would you choose?
possibly for an evil Sunz army
Nobz on warbike all with special weapons. Which combination is up to you and available points, but don't field slugga/choppa models, or at least no more than a single one. Personally I'd give 2-3 PKs and 3-2 big choppas to a 5 man unit. I wouldn't bring more models as Blast weapons would tear them apart too easily.
Last ork bat rep posted on Tabletoptactics had 2x5 Evil Sunz units of biker nobz, all stock except the squad leader with the klaw. The player used them to charge tanks (chimeras) without even scratching them. So if you want stock bikers for their speed, shooting without penalties and tarpit something early game just bring regular ones.
i saw that battle, but its not that likely that the only thing you face is a horde of tanks. If he had played against anything other than Imperial guard hiding all troops inside chimeras, then the choppa nobz would have worked decently.
But that chimera play definitely countered his Nob Bikers heavily. But there could be a lot of other scenarios in which they would be useful
Yeah, but choppa nobz do nothing more than choppa bikers. S4 or S5 with no AP in those numbers don't make much of a difference, and the +1S strategem doesn't help either. With S7 or S10 for each nob (or at least the majority of them) the unit gains much more weight for a reasonable price hike in the unit's points cost and big choppas benefit a lot from getting +1S if needed.
The only argument I see for choppa nobz on warbikes are that they are fairly cheap to run a 3man unit that can be moved up the table quickly and are at least somewhat durable against small arms. But just run a KBB instead at that point. Deffkoptas are a decent alternative but they just bleed BiD points so unless you have a horde army with just like 5 koptas and no other vehicles I think they cost too much in scoring. A 5man deffkopta rokkitsquad with "Visions in da smoke" and "Drive by krumpin'" is a really interesting unit for evil sunz though..
Choppa nobz, especially on warbikes seeing as they can no longer wield double choppas in the FW entry, will do nothing at all in CC against any target worth mentioning. If you want one or two of them as cheaper wounds in a unit with expensive weapons, then that's fine but even a full 9man squad with choppas just barely manages to wipe a 10man guardsmen squad.
Nobz on warbikes should, in my opinion, be run as either a 5-9 man squad with all big choppas or a 5man squad with killsaws (or maybe 4saws and 1 choppa). The big choppas greatly benefit from the "Full speed, ladz" strat to bump them up to S8 and if you face a lot of marines (of the non DG variety) then they can genuinely do decent work. S8 AP-1 D2 also double as a decent vehicle killer in a pinch. Running them with killsaws makes them a lot killier which is great, but price is becoming an issue so run them in smaller squads and hide them away as more of a counter charge then (and once again DG nerfs them hard).
Blackie wrote: Yeah, but choppa nobz do nothing more than choppa bikers. S4 or S5 with no AP in those numbers don't make much of a difference, and the +1S strategem doesn't help either. With S7 or S10 for each nob (or at least the majority of them) the unit gains much more weight for a reasonable price hike in the unit's points cost and big choppas benefit a lot from getting +1S if needed.
i agree, but i guess it depends on what you want them to do. If you want to do light damage and chaff clear at the same time and tie up enemies, then i think choppa Nobz sound decent. With their added wound they also survive a bit more. If you actually want to go for a killing crew then sure go for big choppas or Killsaws. As killsaws are better than powerklaws.
I could just imagine that my Nob bikers would be the first to reach the enemy, and would thus end up against chaff infantry, then afterwards, my Bonebreakers would follow suit with Mega Nobz inside of them. thus i would somewhat waste my Killsaws on my Nob Bikers. But it depends entirely on how you use them.
I can see Nob bikers with killsaws as being useful or even Big Choppas, but i do see value in keeping them very cheap as well. 8 bikers do, after all have a total of 24 wounds based on a T5 profile with a save of 4, for 240 points. thats okay i think. If you go for 12 warbikers thats 324 points, and they have the same amount of wounds. So 240 points does the same, wounds wise, as the 324 boyz warbikers.
of course your warbikers 24 wounds are split over more models so i guess they do get more durbility that way, but you also pay more points.
The amount of attacks isnt much different between them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: The only argument I see for choppa nobz on warbikes are that they are fairly cheap to run a 3man unit that can be moved up the table quickly and are at least somewhat durable against small arms. But just run a KBB instead at that point. Deffkoptas are a decent alternative but they just bleed BiD points so unless you have a horde army with just like 5 koptas and no other vehicles I think they cost too much in scoring. A 5man deffkopta rokkitsquad with "Visions in da smoke" and "Drive by krumpin'" is a really interesting unit for evil sunz though..
Choppa nobz, especially on warbikes seeing as they can no longer wield double choppas in the FW entry, will do nothing at all in CC against any target worth mentioning. If you want one or two of them as cheaper wounds in a unit with expensive weapons, then that's fine but even a full 9man squad with choppas just barely manages to wipe a 10man guardsmen squad.
Nobz on warbikes should, in my opinion, be run as either a 5-9 man squad with all big choppas or a 5man squad with killsaws (or maybe 4saws and 1 choppa). The big choppas greatly benefit from the "Full speed, ladz" strat to bump them up to S8 and if you face a lot of marines (of the non DG variety) then they can genuinely do decent work. S8 AP-1 D2 also double as a decent vehicle killer in a pinch. Running them with killsaws makes them a lot killier which is great, but price is becoming an issue so run them in smaller squads and hide them away as more of a counter charge then (and once again DG nerfs them hard).
compelling arguments. Im still trying to wrap my head around the best way to tie up enemies in turn 1 with Evil Sunz, i just thought about Choppa Nobz. But im still open to all suggestions.
Usually i can make turn 1 charges with Evil Sunz but not always and i dont always get in from the best angles. The Bikers, be it nobz or warbikers have enough speed to guaranteed reach the enemy on turn 1 in most cases, so id like to use them, or someone else, to simply tie up the enemy and stopping them from shooting my main army and moving up the field. By charging turn 2 with my main army of bonebreakers etc, i at least can get in to a better position.
But maybe what im looking for is just regular Twin big shoota deffkoptas for exactly this purpose? but at the same time, i need them to survive the counter attack after ive made my charge and they get to strike back.
Deffkoptas should just go back to being (jet)Bike keyworded. If Outriders and even ATVs are Bikes then a Deffkopta should revert back to being one too.
* and if Deffkoptas DO get a new plastic kit, id like to see them get unique weapon options that differentiate them more than just flying Warbikes. Spinnin' Blades having AP1 to begin with, their own shoota variant thats like a shorter range Supa Shoota or even an Assault like Deffgun, Kopta Rokkits having more hitting power/accuracy and some Mek weapons too like bringing back the Kustom Mega-Blasta or a Tellyporta Blasta. Hell Id love it if they can even get their old Buzzsaw and Bomms back.
Look, making T1 charges with Evil Sunz isn't hard. There are several buggies, bikes, deffkoptas and da jumpers that can all make that happen. The problem is more if you actually want to, a lot of armies can't bring all their guns to bear on T1 unless you've moved up the board significantly so whatever made that charge will die, guaranteed. Doing the same thing T2 might actually work out and you've frontloaded the damage enough that they are too hampered to recover (either by virtue of having little left on the board or just being too squished back in their own DZ).
But man, as an Evil Sunz player myself I can tell you that that plan backfires 50% of the time. Often they just break through our all too squishy defenses and you're left with scraps trying to hold on to a few points so they don't score 15VPs on primary turn 4&5. It's a gamble, and not a great one in many cases.
On the flip side however, orks are not one of these elite armies that can hide out of LoS T1 so if they go second it's no real danger. So you will give up casualties against a gunline if you go second so how aggressive your fast units should be one T1 is super matchup dependent IMO. Some stuff, like the new Deathwing Dark Angels you should just move up all the way and not charge so you'll move block them. They're slow, shoot little but hit way harder than anything of ours and can tank hit for days. Blocking them and denying them the board is the best solution I've come up with (unless you want to run 18 smasha guns). The new DG are a super tricky matchup IMO as almost all our CC is damage 2 or d3 and therefore sucks against them, they also lower toughness and can make you fight last. All of those things makes you want to bring zero melee units but unless you're list tailoring then you probably have between 500-1000 points of hammers in your list. Making a T1 charge against them with anything in the Ork codex is suicide and just giving up points.. But they're fairly slow and not super shooty, so hold with the melee stuff and engage on your own terms.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deffrekka wrote: Deffkoptas should just go back to being (jet)Bike keyworded. If Outriders and even ATVs are Bikes then a Deffkopta should revert back to being one too.
* and if Deffkoptas DO get a new plastic kit, id like to see them get unique weapon options that differentiate them more than just flying Warbikes. Spinnin' Blades having AP1 to begin with, their own shoota variant thats like a shorter range Supa Shoota or even an Assault like Deffgun, Kopta Rokkits having more hitting power/accuracy and some Mek weapons too like bringing back the Kustom Mega-Blasta or a Tellyporta Blasta. Hell Id love it if they can even get their old Buzzsaw and Bomms back.
Yes, if even the Custodes jetbikes are in fact bikes and not vehicles then deffkoptas shouldn't be either. That'd help solve quite a bit of their issues in and out of itself..
The point of Nob bikers is to kill harder stuff. If you want fast choppas to take the field and take objectives, stormboyz are definitely better, because they can have obsec like deathskulls and can go into through the buildings for cheaper price. And 9 bikers with 2 dakkaguns can delete some screens pretty fine.
I see the sence in mixed squad o 9bike squads maybe.
Nob bikers can have Squig Tyres, so 9bike evil sunz squad have 18” move + 4,5 advance + charge.
So if go first, you can hit T1 charge and ad +1S and hit like a hammer.
If go second, choppas can die and the rest with saw or big choppas will charge afterwards.
The question is, how to keep them alive after first charge. Are they able to kill what can kill them? Let' s say take 2-3 squads of 9?
DG is terribly slow and lack the shooting. I played twice againts them with my buggies (different player every time) and it was pretty simple. Dragstas shoot down the Mortarion no later than T2. The rest screen the field to let him drop his terminators or what is it in the corners / edges / his own deploy and than just shoot him down from the distance. One player droped it in T3 seeing he' s not able to move his units to the field until the rest of the game and the second holded to T5 was not able to do a lot. But maybe these was just easy opponents? I don' t know...
Buy three boxes of warbikers. You get a nob in every one of those so that's 3 down. Buy a nobz kit and use the arms, heads and torsos of them to make another 5 nobz on warbikes. That'll net you 8, the last one you could use a normal boy torso but try and bulk him up with some shoulder pauldrons etc.
It might require some snipping to get enough handlebars in nob arms but use your imagination, to scrounge up some extra. Maybe the runtherd stick arms etc?
PiñaColada wrote: Buy three boxes of warbikers. You get a nob in every one of those so that's 3 down. Buy a nobz kit and use the arms, heads and torsos of them to make another 5 nobz on warbikes. That'll net you 8, the last one you could use a normal boy torso but try and bulk him up with some shoulder pauldrons etc.
It might require some snipping to get enough handlebars in nob arms but use your imagination, to scrounge up some extra. Maybe the runtherd stick arms etc?
good thinking friend. Kit bashing, the way forward. Ive never been a great kitbasher up till this point.
Beardedragon wrote: That reminds me, if you guys had to go for either warbikers or Nobz on warbikes, which would you choose?
possibly for an evil Sunz army
Nobz on warbike all with special weapons. Which combination is up to you and available points, but don't field slugga/choppa models, or at least no more than a single one. Personally I'd give 2-3 PKs and 3-2 big choppas to a 5 man unit. I wouldn't bring more models as Blast weapons would tear them apart too easily.
Last ork bat rep posted on Tabletoptactics had 2x5 Evil Sunz units of biker nobz, all stock except the squad leader with the klaw. The player used them to charge tanks (chimeras) without even scratching them. So if you want stock bikers for their speed, shooting without penalties and tarpit something early game just bring regular ones.
i saw that battle, but its not that likely that the only thing you face is a horde of tanks. If he had played against anything other than Imperial guard hiding all troops inside chimeras, then the choppa nobz would have worked decently.
But that chimera play definitely countered his Nob Bikers heavily. But there could be a lot of other scenarios in which they would be useful
Barring the new codex which "might" (doubt it) address the problem of bikers and nob bikers being too expensive, a Warbiker right now is 27pts and a Nob biker is 30pts. Keep in mind a boy is 8 and a nob is 17. So apparently for a boy a warbike is worth 19pts but for the nob its only 13pts. Unless they receive somewhat hefty buffs in durability/dmg output than a more reasonable price for these guys would be closer to 18 and 22. Keep in mind Space Marines between 8th and 9th doubled their ROF, doubled their CC attacks in the first round, doubled their wounds, and gained doctrines while only going up 3pts. I would argue for a boy to gain double the wounds and 3x the dakka with a 4+ save and +1 T is worth 8-10pts but with the "You aren't a Space Marine" tax, probably going to end up closer to 16.
A counter argument would be "yeah but Tacticals weren't used because they weren't good!" And I would agree...and also point out that in the competitive scene you aren't seeing warbikers and nob bikers taken, hell in local competitive games you aren't seeing them taken. Why take 1 warbike for 27pts when I can take more than 3 boyz who have more wounds, are harder to kill (overkill effect) and have 3x as many CC attacks which is where the real dmg is done for orkz right now. On the flipside of that, if a Warbike was only 2 and some change times more expensive than Boyz, there would be an argument that the trade off is closer to being competitive.
On another note, i'm glad i'm not the only person who doesn't like tankbustas as a general concept. If they could benefit from strats inside vehicles I would like them a lot more, but at the moment they are at best a suicide squad that doesn't do as much dmg as opponent's equivalent units. 3 eradicators with upgraded weapons cost 155pts, 9 tankbustas are 153. Those 3 eradicators average 4 shots with upgraded rifles and 4 shots with a multi melta. Each gets 2.66 hits. Against T7 that is 1.7 wounds and T8 its 1.33 Each wound is -4 AP so likely penetrates most armor AND the rifles do D6+4 dmg each and the multi-melta is D6+2 if at half range. So against T7 the rifles are averaging 12.75dmg and the multi-melta is average 9.35, Against T8 its 9.9 and 7.3 So T7 those 155pts of eradicators average a grand total of 22dmg and T8 its 17.
Those Tankbustas on the flipside are 9 shots for 3.5 hits and 5.5 rerolls if its against a vehicle for 2.13ish more hits, total of 5.6 hits, against T7 that is 3.7 wounds and T8 its 2.8. The weapon is only -2AP so against 3+ armor that is a 5+ save meaning those 3.7 turn into 2.5 and the 2.8 turns into basically 2. So you are average 6-9 dmg vs T7 and average 6dmg vs T8.
Put it another way, Tankbustas do significantly less than 50% the dmg of Eradicators for the same price while also being significantly less durable (9 T4 6+ save wounds vs 9 T5 3+ wounds).
Beardedragon wrote: That reminds me, if you guys had to go for either warbikers or Nobz on warbikes, which would you choose?
possibly for an evil Sunz army
Nobz on warbike all with special weapons. Which combination is up to you and available points, but don't field slugga/choppa models, or at least no more than a single one. Personally I'd give 2-3 PKs and 3-2 big choppas to a 5 man unit. I wouldn't bring more models as Blast weapons would tear them apart too easily.
Last ork bat rep posted on Tabletoptactics had 2x5 Evil Sunz units of biker nobz, all stock except the squad leader with the klaw. The player used them to charge tanks (chimeras) without even scratching them. So if you want stock bikers for their speed, shooting without penalties and tarpit something early game just bring regular ones.
i saw that battle, but its not that likely that the only thing you face is a horde of tanks. If he had played against anything other than Imperial guard hiding all troops inside chimeras, then the choppa nobz would have worked decently.
But that chimera play definitely countered his Nob Bikers heavily. But there could be a lot of other scenarios in which they would be useful
Barring the new codex which "might" (doubt it) address the problem of bikers and nob bikers being too expensive, a Warbiker right now is 27pts and a Nob biker is 30pts. Keep in mind a boy is 8 and a nob is 17. So apparently for a boy a warbike is worth 19pts but for the nob its only 13pts. Unless they receive somewhat hefty buffs in durability/dmg output than a more reasonable price for these guys would be closer to 18 and 22. Keep in mind Space Marines between 8th and 9th doubled their ROF, doubled their CC attacks in the first round, doubled their wounds, and gained doctrines while only going up 3pts. I would argue for a boy to gain double the wounds and 3x the dakka with a 4+ save and +1 T is worth 8-10pts but with the "You aren't a Space Marine" tax, probably going to end up closer to 16.
A counter argument would be "yeah but Tacticals weren't used because they weren't good!" And I would agree...and also point out that in the competitive scene you aren't seeing warbikers and nob bikers taken, hell in local competitive games you aren't seeing them taken. Why take 1 warbike for 27pts when I can take more than 3 boyz who have more wounds, are harder to kill (overkill effect) and have 3x as many CC attacks which is where the real dmg is done for orkz right now. On the flipside of that, if a Warbike was only 2 and some change times more expensive than Boyz, there would be an argument that the trade off is closer to being competitive.
On another note, i'm glad i'm not the only person who doesn't like tankbustas as a general concept. If they could benefit from strats inside vehicles I would like them a lot more, but at the moment they are at best a suicide squad that doesn't do as much dmg as opponent's equivalent units. 3 eradicators with upgraded weapons cost 155pts, 9 tankbustas are 153. Those 3 eradicators average 4 shots with upgraded rifles and 4 shots with a multi melta. Each gets 2.66 hits. Against T7 that is 1.7 wounds and T8 its 1.33 Each wound is -4 AP so likely penetrates most armor AND the rifles do D6+4 dmg each and the multi-melta is D6+2 if at half range. So against T7 the rifles are averaging 12.75dmg and the multi-melta is average 9.35, Against T8 its 9.9 and 7.3 So T7 those 155pts of eradicators average a grand total of 22dmg and T8 its 17.
Those Tankbustas on the flipside are 9 shots for 3.5 hits and 5.5 rerolls if its against a vehicle for 2.13ish more hits, total of 5.6 hits, against T7 that is 3.7 wounds and T8 its 2.8. The weapon is only -2AP so against 3+ armor that is a 5+ save meaning those 3.7 turn into 2.5 and the 2.8 turns into basically 2. So you are average 6-9 dmg vs T7 and average 6dmg vs T8.
Put it another way, Tankbustas do significantly less than 50% the dmg of Eradicators for the same price while also being significantly less durable (9 T4 6+ save wounds vs 9 T5 3+ wounds).
But is that "Tankbustas are bad" or "Eradicators are too good"?
Admittedly, if you're going to tournaments, then yes, Eradicators are a unit to measure against. I just hope GW doesn't see it that way, and will instead tone them down.
the only forgiving fact here is that you have like 10 models of tankbustas, so the wounds are spread out over more units. In a world of elite slaying armies, thats not necessarily too bad.
Eradicators are easily 20-25ppm underpriced, comparing pretty much anything to them is moot.
Thats not saying Tankbustas are amazing though, i do hope we get allowed to put strats on them in vehicles (OpenTopped should flippin' allow auras and strats) because they are tissupapper priced like they can survive a hit or two. Any unit that can be wiped by generic bolters w/o any real effort should not be that expensive, regardless of their weapons.
Beardedragon wrote: That reminds me, if you guys had to go for either warbikers or Nobz on warbikes, which would you choose?
possibly for an evil Sunz army
Nobz on warbike all with special weapons. Which combination is up to you and available points, but don't field slugga/choppa models, or at least no more than a single one. Personally I'd give 2-3 PKs and 3-2 big choppas to a 5 man unit. I wouldn't bring more models as Blast weapons would tear them apart too easily.
Last ork bat rep posted on Tabletoptactics had 2x5 Evil Sunz units of biker nobz, all stock except the squad leader with the klaw. The player used them to charge tanks (chimeras) without even scratching them. So if you want stock bikers for their speed, shooting without penalties and tarpit something early game just bring regular ones.
i saw that battle, but its not that likely that the only thing you face is a horde of tanks. If he had played against anything other than Imperial guard hiding all troops inside chimeras, then the choppa nobz would have worked decently.
But that chimera play definitely countered his Nob Bikers heavily. But there could be a lot of other scenarios in which they would be useful
Barring the new codex which "might" (doubt it) address the problem of bikers and nob bikers being too expensive, a Warbiker right now is 27pts and a Nob biker is 30pts. Keep in mind a boy is 8 and a nob is 17. So apparently for a boy a warbike is worth 19pts but for the nob its only 13pts. Unless they receive somewhat hefty buffs in durability/dmg output than a more reasonable price for these guys would be closer to 18 and 22. Keep in mind Space Marines between 8th and 9th doubled their ROF, doubled their CC attacks in the first round, doubled their wounds, and gained doctrines while only going up 3pts. I would argue for a boy to gain double the wounds and 3x the dakka with a 4+ save and +1 T is worth 8-10pts but with the "You aren't a Space Marine" tax, probably going to end up closer to 16.
A counter argument would be "yeah but Tacticals weren't used because they weren't good!" And I would agree...and also point out that in the competitive scene you aren't seeing warbikers and nob bikers taken, hell in local competitive games you aren't seeing them taken. Why take 1 warbike for 27pts when I can take more than 3 boyz who have more wounds, are harder to kill (overkill effect) and have 3x as many CC attacks which is where the real dmg is done for orkz right now. On the flipside of that, if a Warbike was only 2 and some change times more expensive than Boyz, there would be an argument that the trade off is closer to being competitive.
On another note, i'm glad i'm not the only person who doesn't like tankbustas as a general concept. If they could benefit from strats inside vehicles I would like them a lot more, but at the moment they are at best a suicide squad that doesn't do as much dmg as opponent's equivalent units. 3 eradicators with upgraded weapons cost 155pts, 9 tankbustas are 153. Those 3 eradicators average 4 shots with upgraded rifles and 4 shots with a multi melta. Each gets 2.66 hits. Against T7 that is 1.7 wounds and T8 its 1.33 Each wound is -4 AP so likely penetrates most armor AND the rifles do D6+4 dmg each and the multi-melta is D6+2 if at half range. So against T7 the rifles are averaging 12.75dmg and the multi-melta is average 9.35, Against T8 its 9.9 and 7.3 So T7 those 155pts of eradicators average a grand total of 22dmg and T8 its 17.
Those Tankbustas on the flipside are 9 shots for 3.5 hits and 5.5 rerolls if its against a vehicle for 2.13ish more hits, total of 5.6 hits, against T7 that is 3.7 wounds and T8 its 2.8. The weapon is only -2AP so against 3+ armor that is a 5+ save meaning those 3.7 turn into 2.5 and the 2.8 turns into basically 2. So you are average 6-9 dmg vs T7 and average 6dmg vs T8.
Put it another way, Tankbustas do significantly less than 50% the dmg of Eradicators for the same price while also being significantly less durable (9 T4 6+ save wounds vs 9 T5 3+ wounds).
But is that "Tankbustas are bad" or "Eradicators are too good"?
Admittedly, if you're going to tournaments, then yes, Eradicators are a unit to measure against. I just hope GW doesn't see it that way, and will instead tone them down.
Eradicators are the new aggresors. Eventually they will loose the double shooting....one hopes
that ork Codex cant drop fast enough, is all im saying.
given how many open topped vehicles we have, it could be cool to have a special rule that allows us to use stratagems on units in transports.
Given how tankbustas otherwise die to a stiff breeze, they should either be super cheap, more duable, or be able to use stratagems in vehicles.
im also really interested in seeing what they do with gork/morkanauts as well as the Stompa. The Stompa isnt better than a kustom stompa i believe, but now more expensive. So im assuming a point drop.
Well as I see it, Nob bikers are like teenage sex. Everybody speaks about it, nobody actually played it and if, in very small scale and mostly wrong... isn' t it?
Because this is the repeating topic (not only) here but very few people actually have the models to try it. Just one guy here said he has some models and tryed it like evils susnz with 50:50 success, right?
I probably have like (Edit: probably closer to 30) games with nob bikers in 9th alone. I've run them in about every setup imaginable and at a base 30ppm they're alright. Realistically they die way too easy both in shooting and melee but they work as a semi hard-hitting first strike/counter punch. In smaller squads they can also function as a distraction carnifex/harasser.
I've never run more than 18 in a singular game (and that was like 9 too many haha) but I'm sure crafty ork players can get real use out of them. Army composition is going to matter, and if you're in a shooting meta then a KFF helps out a lot. Unfortunately that KFF is narrowed down to a wazbom due to speed basically.
My group of opponents include a couple of really skilled DG players and as I've alluded to in previous posts that new disgustingly resilient nerfs ork melee hard. So sadly they're a less attractive option for me right now but hopefully the new ork codex makes the power stabbas worthwhile as they might be an interesting weapon then. They need to get some sort of bonus on the charge to be truly desirable IMO (barring a big point drop)
Tomsug wrote: Well as I see it, Nob bikers are like teenage sex. Everybody speaks about it, nobody actually played it and if, in very small scale and mostly wrong... isn' t it?
Because this is the repeating topic (not only) here but very few people actually have the models to try it. Just one guy here said he has some models and tryed it like evils susnz with 50:50 success, right?
Let' s do our homework over next few weeks.
Kick on the TTS and try it.
i have tabletop simulator but i have no idea how the game works. I even downloaded some Mods from that attack turtle youtuber but im not even sure how to get my correct profiles. The garg squiggoths for instance are pre Forge world update.
Im not sure how it works, but if i did, i would definitely try out the Nob bikers with different variations
Tomsug wrote: Well as I see it, Nob bikers are like teenage sex. Everybody speaks about it, nobody actually played it and if, in very small scale and mostly wrong... isn' t it?
Because this is the repeating topic (not only) here but very few people actually have the models to try it. Just one guy here said he has some models and tryed it like evils susnz with 50:50 success, right?
Let' s do our homework over next few weeks.
Kick on the TTS and try it.
i've played them a bunch of times for fun, they die way to easily and deliver next to nothing in return. Shooting wise they get 6 shots which ends up as 2.33 hits and against Normal marines that is 1.6 wounds or .5 dmg, against Gravis its even less. So you need 4 Bikes or 120pts to kill 1 tactical Marine. That is a 6 to 1 ratio, in other words, GOD AWFUL.
In CC, they get 3 attacks base with +1 for choppas hitting on 3s so 4 attacks for 2.66 hits, against T4 that is 1.8 wounds and against a 3+ save that is.... 0.6 dmg, so slightly better than their shooting, again it takes a little over 3 to kill 1 Tactical Marine, even more against Gravis.
If your goal is to kill stuff Nob bikers suck. If your goal is to tie stuff up, we have a bunch of other stuff which is better suited to that role.
As far as Tankbustas, Yeah comparing them to eradicators isn't that fair since Eradicators are just nuts, but at the same time take their base dmg that i mentioned. Unless you pop a strat and get lucky you aren't likely to kill a T7 vehicle with a suicide unit which dies the very next turn to minor small arms fire. Tankbustas need a hefty increase in dmg to be a "suicide" unit. Hell, they need a hefty bonus regardless.
Tomsug wrote: Well as I see it, Nob bikers are like teenage sex. Everybody speaks about it, nobody actually played it and if, in very small scale and mostly wrong... isn' t it?
Because this is the repeating topic (not only) here but very few people actually have the models to try it. Just one guy here said he has some models and tryed it like evils susnz with 50:50 success, right?
Let' s do our homework over next few weeks.
Kick on the TTS and try it.
i have tabletop simulator but i have no idea how the game works. I even downloaded some Mods from that attack turtle youtuber but im not even sure how to get my correct profiles. The garg squiggoths for instance are pre Forge world update.
Im not sure how it works, but if i did, i would definitely try out the Nob bikers with different variations
Have you used the workshop in the community tab for TTS? That's basically all you really need, just click the + sign or whereever it says subscribe and type in the Ork army stuff you want to find (it's usually as a compilation of models). To get gaming tables, just type into the search bar for 9th edition warhammer and you should find tables prebuilt for the 9th ed missions. Just drag a box over whatever models you want in your army and you can right click and "save object" for later use. You should be using the mods only for the models and not rules generally speaking because, as you noticed, they usually aren't updated in time.
Tomsug wrote: Well as I see it, Nob bikers are like teenage sex. Everybody speaks about it, nobody actually played it and if, in very small scale and mostly wrong... isn' t it?
Because this is the repeating topic (not only) here but very few people actually have the models to try it. Just one guy here said he has some models and tryed it like evils susnz with 50:50 success, right?
Let' s do our homework over next few weeks.
Kick on the TTS and try it.
i have tabletop simulator but i have no idea how the game works. I even downloaded some Mods from that attack turtle youtuber but im not even sure how to get my correct profiles. The garg squiggoths for instance are pre Forge world update.
Im not sure how it works, but if i did, i would definitely try out the Nob bikers with different variations
Have you used the workshop in the community tab for TTS? That's basically all you really need, just click the + sign or whereever it says subscribe and type in the Ork army stuff you want to find (it's usually as a compilation of models). To get gaming tables, just type into the search bar for 9th edition warhammer and you should find tables prebuilt for the 9th ed missions. Just drag a box over whatever models you want in your army and you can right click and "save object" for later use. You should be using the mods only for the models and not rules generally speaking because, as you noticed, they usually aren't updated in time.
I just assumed that tactical turtle guy had updated mods since he linked to them and they make tournements. But ill try what you said.
thanks for the help and sorry for my tiny derail as its not related to to warhammer tabletop at all but a video game.
Tomsug wrote: Well as I see it, Nob bikers are like teenage sex. Everybody speaks about it, nobody actually played it and if, in very small scale and mostly wrong... isn' t it?
Because this is the repeating topic (not only) here but very few people actually have the models to try it. Just one guy here said he has some models and tryed it like evils susnz with 50:50 success, right?
Let' s do our homework over next few weeks.
Kick on the TTS and try it.
i have tabletop simulator but i have no idea how the game works. I even downloaded some Mods from that attack turtle youtuber but im not even sure how to get my correct profiles. The garg squiggoths for instance are pre Forge world update.
Im not sure how it works, but if i did, i would definitely try out the Nob bikers with different variations
Yeah, it' s pure 90ties feeling. The procedure is = instal discord, check in in TTS Warhammer 40k, there are threats with tutorials and basic data, downlad and add. Switch on battlescribe on pc, make a list, upload to page “battlescribe to tts”, put the code in tts simulator etc.. well honestly, it was a real pain to get in to it... but now I see it like a good investment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tulun, PinaColada, SemperMortis - great to hear it!
IIRC, Warbikerz had more of a use as a early game T1 charge tarpit unit back in 8th when we still had the speed freak focused specialist detachment that let them consolidate or pile in 6" rather than 3". I think Jidmah used this kind of list. Now that they're more expensive than before and we don't have access to those strats or that detachment in 9th, warbikers and by extension Nob bikers don't have that niche role anymore and as a platform they just don't do enough in either shooting or CC. Dakkaguns desperately need an AP boost of some sort and warbikes in general need some kind of rule that ups their damage on the charge, a mortal wound proc on a dice roll for each biker similar to our buggies right now would give them something to soften up enemy units before they attack.
cody.d. wrote: That and the more 8th went on the more lethal the game became. At this point they're just too... meh in every sector.
Pretty much. The arms race in lethality and defensive abilities beyond stats and cost efficiency basically makes units like warbikers and nob bikers left in the dust, especially when they have practically no force multiplier or meaningful stratagem support. One outrider or one RW biker can outfight and outshoot 3 of our guys.
Tomsug wrote: Well as I see it, Nob bikers are like teenage sex. Everybody speaks about it, nobody actually played it and if, in very small scale and mostly wrong... isn' t it?
Because this is the repeating topic (not only) here but very few people actually have the models to try it. Just one guy here said he has some models and tryed it like evils susnz with 50:50 success, right?
Let' s do our homework over next few weeks.
Kick on the TTS and try it.
I'm fairly sure that every single ork player who was around for 5th has nob bikers on their shelves, it's not a unit as rare as you think
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimskul wrote: IIRC, Warbikerz had more of a use as a early game T1 charge tarpit unit back in 8th when we still had the speed freak focused specialist detachment that let them consolidate or pile in 6" rather than 3". I think Jidmah used this kind of list. Now that they're more expensive than before and we don't have access to those strats or that detachment in 9th, warbikers and by extension Nob bikers don't have that niche role anymore and as a platform they just don't do enough in either shooting or CC. Dakkaguns desperately need an AP boost of some sort and warbikes in general need some kind of rule that ups their damage on the charge, a mortal wound proc on a dice roll for each biker similar to our buggies right now would give them something to soften up enemy units before they attack.
Yup, the loss of specialist detachments pretty much killed warbikers for me. In 8th, their sole strength was being T5/4+/2W which was something most armies couldn't chew through in melee, so you could tarpit large parts of an army in T1 and prevent them from moving out of their deployment zone.
9th however, is a completely different game. Almost every army has a few decent melee units, all updated codices have improved melee abilities (especially characters). Unstable ground, difficult ground and ruins make it difficult to navigate the huge footprint and often makes it impossible to chrage. Even if you manage to charge T1 with the help of squig tires, there usually is something around to blend them in a single turn, and they are just way to expensive for that.
Another perspective: 12 warbikers with a PK are 334, 5 MANz in a battlewagon are 335 points. Let that sink in.
yeah theres plenty of mass AP1 which even at S4 just devours bikers now and if theyre a melee-capable unit at all and dont have a mass of attacks they probably do 2+ wounds and totally strip armor.
Also we lost the painboy on bike and the ability to give them Cybork invuls which was a HUGE aspect why they were awesome in 5/6th
They were also troop back then. Not by default, but in practise they always were as all lists involving nob bikers also had a warboss or ghaz.
Not to mention that they could abuse wounds allocation and general rate of fire was extremely lower than the current standards while their damage output was way higher than now.
oh yeah, also the walking cover save. So they always had a 4+ unless you ignored cover AND had ap4 or greater (which wasnt that common to have both).
The walking coversave became a nigh useless stratagem though that we have to pre-emptively use for some god forsaken reason... and -1 to hit is simply NOT as good as a 50-50 save
Vineheart01 wrote: oh yeah, also the walking cover save.
So they always had a 4+ unless you ignored cover AND had ap4 or greater (which wasnt that common to have both).
The walking coversave became a nigh useless stratagem though that we have to pre-emptively use for some god forsaken reason... and -1 to hit is simply NOT as good as a 50-50 save
Agreed, that -1 to hit should have been part of their profile with a strat to boost it.
Bikernobz basically lost more than half of their kit and remained roughly the same cost, PKs went down but i dont think they did themselves (prior to the FW book of course)
But given that theyre stuck in FW now and FW seems to ignore 40k...theyre stuck in their current iteration for a loooong time. Which is sad.
Yeah....the best we can hope for are some Nob keyword strats that boost their survival or offense and maybe a kustom job that gives them some sort of options beyond just more movement.
So I just read that with Mek Boss Buzzgob's +1 to hit and Sparkly Bitz stack, because sparkly bitz increases the BS on the datasheet rather than being a +1 to hit buff. Did goff morkanauts just become a thing?
i imagine the math on going to a 3+ to hit but losing the reroll wound/damage roll for Deathskullz is about the same, possibly slightly less still since rerolling a D6 damage is insane.
Buzzgob having a KFF or not doesnt really impact anything since he'd be sitting next to a Mork, which would have a KFF. But Buzzgob doing something else on top of buffing the Mork would be nice, given his price.
Vineheart01 wrote: i imagine the math on going to a 3+ to hit but losing the reroll wound/damage roll for Deathskullz is about the same, possibly slightly less still since rerolling a D6 damage is insane.
Buzzgob having a KFF or not doesnt really impact anything since he'd be sitting next to a Mork, which would have a KFF. But Buzzgob doing something else on top of buffing the Mork would be nice, given his price.
The bonus to hit is in the command phase, so you could definitely split them up after the buff was given.
You could also give it to a Gork, making the damn thing potentially hitting on 2s in combat (bonus: give it the +1 BS as well instead of the other Kustom Job).
But yeah, if he had a KFF he would be super interesting, as is, I think he's just too much for what he does. He's not a combat threat, he doesn't give an invul, and his buff although good, is given to an overpriced unit that is borderline untakeable in the meta of supercharged melta.
Vineheart01 wrote: i imagine the math on going to a 3+ to hit but losing the reroll wound/damage roll for Deathskullz is about the same, possibly slightly less still since rerolling a D6 damage is insane.
Buzzgob having a KFF or not doesnt really impact anything since he'd be sitting next to a Mork, which would have a KFF. But Buzzgob doing something else on top of buffing the Mork would be nice, given his price.
Having used Buzzgob with a walker heavy Goff list, I would say that it really isn't worth missing out on the DS buffs, since it's usually rerolling the damage that is the most valuable when rolling for a variable damage weapon.
Vineheart01 wrote: i imagine the math on going to a 3+ to hit but losing the reroll wound/damage roll for Deathskullz is about the same, possibly slightly less still since rerolling a D6 damage is insane.
Buzzgob having a KFF or not doesnt really impact anything since he'd be sitting next to a Mork, which would have a KFF. But Buzzgob doing something else on top of buffing the Mork would be nice, given his price.
The bonus to hit is in the command phase, so you could definitely split them up after the buff was given.
You could also give it to a Gork, making the damn thing potentially hitting on 2s in combat (bonus: give it the +1 BS as well instead of the other Kustom Job).
But yeah, if he had a KFF he would be super interesting, as is, I think he's just too much for what he does. He's not a combat threat, he doesn't give an invul, and his buff although good, is given to an overpriced unit that is borderline untakeable in the meta of supercharged melta.
Trust me when i say buffs happening in the command phase are bad.
Necrons are covered in that problem, so much crap i do in the command phase that if i wasnt in position for a full turn ago i cant do now. Its absolutely bonkers dumb and i wish command phase would go away.
I use 2 jets - wazboom and burna bommer - and they works fine.
I' ve analyzed last about 10-15 games and I seriously consider to skip KFF on Wazboom at all. Keep it like a pure anti-tank plane.
1. I play Deathskulls, so it' s just improve from 6++ to 5++
2. In practise the KFF cover something more than Wazboom itself just in T1 if I go second.
So in 50% of the games, it gives better invu just to the plane itself.
And if the KFF covers something in T1, it' s the Bommer and no more 2 buggies, mostly behind the LOS block anyway.
15p for it seems to be pretty high price (20p kff - 5p stickbomb f.)
Does anybody else comes to the similar conclusion?
Also, have anyone here tried actually running a super heavy auxillary detatchment and bringing an Evil Sunz Kustom Stompa? I mean you dont get the detatchment rules for it, but you still get the keyword, so if your batallion detatchment or what ever else you run is also evil Sunz, you could still buff the kustom stompa with visions in the smoke.
Some bloke made a youtube video about it i think yesterday, and i liked the idea. Is it competitive? probably not, but still interesting.
Of course theres the risk part of failing your roll of 9 (bring 30 boys and a painboy for the weirdboy) or even being denied. I was thinking id bring an evil Sunz Da boomer gunwagon or maybe something else shooty that has less wounds, so if you get a roll of 7 instead of 9, at least the ability isnt wasted entirely.
Kustom Stompa - Visions in the smoke --> More dakka.
Sounds terrifying (and expensive). I dont even have a kustom stompa, but the model is awesome so i kinda wish i had one, then i would try this. I guess when i finally sit down and make my TTS working ill try it then.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah theres plenty of mass AP1 which even at S4 just devours bikers now and if theyre a melee-capable unit at all and dont have a mass of attacks they probably do 2+ wounds and totally strip armor.
Also we lost the painboy on bike and the ability to give them Cybork invuls which was a HUGE aspect why they were awesome in 5/6th
For whatever reason GW decided to strips Orks of invuns (mainly for melee) during 7th and some degree 8th. Whilst we have the KFF, it is fairly restrictive compared to similar abilities that don't require the unit to be wholly within its aura. Cybork Bodies got changed into the trash that it is of a 6+++ when we can already get that in a Painboy or being Snakebites. Nobz were always unique when compared to Space Marines with them being tougher (the extra wound) and stronger (furious charge/str 5 base) and Meganobz again being generally more resilient than Terminators due to that extra wound then dealing more damage in combat with more attacks and strength. The draw back was no invuns and being slower (Grotsnik would help with giving Cybork Bodies).
That all changed come 9th edition, we already lost access to a 5++ (real painful on our Warbosses), then suddenly Marines across the board get +1 wound, Shock Assault, better melee weapons and rerolls galore. So what makes Nobz and Meganobz unique now to their Imperial counterparts? Bad leadership, worse BS and costing more? Hopefully when we get our new Codex it addresses this issues (and numerous other issues). Personally I'd like to see Cybork Bodies be -1 damage that way it doesn't conflict with a Painboy, and I have no idea what can be done for Meganobz because I don't think Orks will be getting an extra wound and I dont think being toughness 5 will save them much.
If GW wants to restrict us from having invuns in melee (Barring Deathskulls but not all of us play them ), then they need to come up with another way to mitgate damage so we feel actually tougher than what we are now.
Prior 8th edition banner nob was not a character, just a possible loadout for a single guy in a nobz squad. In the 5th edition codex (that one released at the end of 4th) the painboy wasn't a character either, but just an option for a nobz squad. So in conclusion both painboy and waaagh banner were possible options for nobz squads. And warbikes were just equipment for nobz squads.
In 5th edition Nobz were extremely powerful. Typically 5 man squads, including a painboy to provide cybork bodies, a banner dude and a couple of power klaws at least. All on bikes or riding into a Battlewagon.
Also, have anyone here tried actually running a super heavy auxillary detatchment and bringing an Evil Sunz Kustom Stompa? I mean you dont get the detatchment rules for it, but you still get the keyword, so if your batallion detatchment or what ever else you run is also evil Sunz, you could still buff the kustom stompa with visions in the smoke.
Some bloke made a youtube video about it i think yesterday, and i liked the idea. Is it competitive? probably not, but still interesting.
Of course theres the risk part of failing your roll of 9 (bring 30 boys and a painboy for the weirdboy) or even being denied. I was thinking id bring an evil Sunz Da boomer gunwagon or maybe something else shooty that has less wounds, so if you get a roll of 7 instead of 9, at least the ability isnt wasted entirely.
Kustom Stompa - Visions in the smoke --> More dakka.
Sounds terrifying (and expensive). I dont even have a kustom stompa, but the model is awesome so i kinda wish i had one, then i would try this. I guess when i finally sit down and make my TTS working ill try it then.
We used to have a lot of things then they all went away...
I dont think it'll be that good, it might sound terrifying (well not really when you think of the cost of the unit, all the support units and then getting the power off) butreally its a 1 trick pony. Yeah sure load it up with double lifta-droppas and fling Deathwing and Deathguard into orbit but what about the mission? What about obscuring terrain? Its gonna be mighty useless when it cant fire at what it wants to and then it has to dance around models and terrain if it can even fit. I dont think with even a new Codex the Stompa or Kustom Stompa will ever be good, the age of Super Heavies is kinda over. They just dont play well towards missions and it isnt even that durable (plus everything in the known galaxy will see it).
It might have a bit of shock and awe to it when put on the battlefield if the person hasn't fought a Stompa before, but take out its support and its gonna live up to its moniker pretty well. Its a relic from a bygone age, for Apocalypse. I sold all mine quite early on into 8th and it wasn't like I used them much anyway, I think I've played Apocalypse 8 times in my entire life as Orks... Might aswell have 3 Killtanks for the cost of the Stompa. Hell 3 Nauts is probably better than a Stompa.
So I ran a squad of 10 nobz this weekend - 7 with big choppas + choppas, 3 with dual choppas. The unit costs 205 pts, about 45 less than the typical boyz squad of 30. I jumped them in round 1 and because of their smaller footprint, was able to sneak them in and assassinate his warlord and 3 bikes, consolidated into a squad of 5 intercessors, fought again and killed the squad, and consolidated into ANOTHER squad of 5 intercessors. At the end of the carnage I still had 7 nobz left. I was HIGHLY impressed, and am actually thinking this might be more efficient than trying to jump 30 boyz round 1. It's much easier to find a spot for 10 nobz, it's cheaper, and it catches the opponent by surprise. Also, if you're running deffskullz like I was, the nobz are far more efficient in combat than regular boyz. They also gain obsec which is nice and could also be a neat trick if your opponent leaves their objective marker open. The nobz become something they have to deal with ASAP and usually devote more resources than necessary to eliminate them. This move essentially won the game for me round 1.
Jidmah wrote: Burna bommers seem to be back, and both rely on high quality shooting - kind of makes sense with all those DG and deathwing running around.
Bommers were never gone, just the lockdown turned down the number of tournaments and screw the stats imho... And the first list do it right, only good way how to use the Bommers is in pairs. If you go second, Bommer is on cca 70% dead before he moves. If you go first, you can scare your opponent twice and let him waste his heavy shooting on something with -1 to hit above his head with 50% chance of exploding into his units anyway. That can turn their attention away from the rest of the field really well. Plus you collect the VP for Engage
...Some bloke made a youtube video about it i think yesterday, and i liked the idea.
I did no such thing!
We also had the option for a SAG mek on a warbike. Warbikes gave relentless so he could move and shoot an ordnance weapon, in a time where you couldn't move and shoot heavy weapons. I made a really cool model for that, sadly we lost the option before it saw the paintbrush.
I say it all the time - ork army is full of options and wonderful unexpected new combinations
Honestly, both lists are pretty much different from we saw before. They stink by TTS, I saw some deffdreads in alpha league videos and just the madman tries to move 3x30boyz in TTS in to the area terrain with more floors
We also had the option for a SAG mek on a warbike. Warbikes gave relentless so he could move and shoot an ordnance weapon, in a time where you couldn't move and shoot heavy weapons. I made a really cool model for that, sadly we lost the option before it saw the paintbrush.
Yeah! I' ve almost started the construction of 3 SAGbikes to ad them to my 3 regular SAGs and play 6 of them in one game! Like 2 years ago? Sweet memories.
Morkanaut [16 PL, -1CP, 340pts]: Kustom Force Field
. Kustom Job: Sparkly Bitz
+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk [4 PL, 65pts]
++ Total: [100 PL, 4CP, 1,998pts] ++
I know it wasnt super optimal but..
Game 1 vs UM:
Spoiler:
I decided to put the wagon with MANz and boyz in the tellyporta instead of the Mork because the deploy zone wouldnt cover all the buggies and I needed the KFF -- I might exchange a rokkit to give the big mek KFF for this reason in the future.
I went second and was able to only take damage on my trukk in the opening salvo -- Mork eats up a lot of deployment real estate! Turn 1 I got good pot shots on his dreadnaught with the dragsta and popped a transport. I bait out his anti armor inf with MANz on a point, which he kills quickly turn 2, while retreating the dread to his tech priest to heal a bit. The KFF and dense terrain prevent him from landing anything significant on the vehicle blob. My turn 2, I use the big mek to heal up the incidental damage to a scrapjet and post up in the center with all 3 scrapjets and mork to blow up the few visible units. My stormboyz drop back to bait auspex scan from his intercessors around his tech priest, and promptly lose all but 1, but now my wagon drops in front of the baited tank killer inf and ramming speeds them down. I was a bit surprised he didnt intervene, but he mentioned he did not want to pop my vehicle full on MANz around his characters. I questioned the call but neither were outfitted to melee well so I didnt argue. Turn 3 I get amazing invul rolls with KFF which pretty much sealed my return fire to be decisive enough to call it.
Overall, I learned that having any modifiers going into a 5++ invul can hold important zones for a turn or two. Also, if they split anti-armor fire, its best to swarm one of the sides instead of taking the center. Baiting out defensive fire/auspex scan/overwatch can pay off a lot, so using dragstas/stormboyz/kommandos/tellyporta all at the same time can force some confounding choices. Also, MAmek can heal but cannot shoot and da jumping gretchin to complete scramblers is so very nice and easy.
Game 2 vs DG:
Spoiler:
He was running a pox/typhus list with some heavy vehicles in the back line. I tellyporta the Mork this time because there was less opening firepower with LOS. Turn 1 was a pretty big snooze fest with some incidental shots and forward waltzing. I did get to pop a bloat drone with 2 scrapjets having some absolute lucky DDD rolls. Turn 2, the pox/typhus blob take a right center obj and he keeps his termies off board. The firing lane for left objective kills my trukk and his power inf move towards the boyz/mek that popped out. I dump my wagon boyz out near the pox and extra stikkbomb them (60 rolls!), but crap rolls only take away 7 models and pull my MANZWagon back a bit to screen out and protect my weirdboy/smasha guns from the termie drop. Mork, the dragsta, and the stormboyz all take up a space in his backboard and blow up a defiler even before the charge (DDD on 3 of the megazappa shots into 2 more hits was not expected). I complete deploy scramblers with my firing lane boyz on the stormboyz in the back. Turn 3, his termies can only find space enough to shoot/charge and kill a mekgun opposite my MANzWagon but threaten they my weird boy. I lose both sides of boyz and contemplate how I am behind 10 points in primary already... I turn my bikeboss back and clean the termies up (2+ 12S with full rerolls hit/wounds is brutal) and scrapjets pick and pop some non/pox infantry. Overall, it looks like the pox side is gonna be all his and the firing lane is gonna be all buggies. After turn 4 results in some abysmal rolls to shoot for my DG friend (1 wound out of the whole round...) we talk out the rest and find that, because of the second turn advantage I was going to be able to screen his pox blob from reaching my obj while I can stormboyz move to get the last 3 points needed no matter what to eek out a win.
Here I learned that you never want to even get in charge range of pox or plague marines (I knew it was strong, but they just beat the crap on the buggies). Psykers will stop weirdboys from mattering unless you play them far far back -- so far they wont matter (I think da jumping around the board to position better next time. I forget about it), and blast doesnt matter for guns that hit on 5+ anyways. I felt like this was won because of a few critical lucky rolls and less about the impact of decisions I made, but hey, it was fun to play anyways!
The UM player already has already talked about a new list that will be much more punchy and oppressively vs what I was doing, so I cant wait till we next meet up. I wanna build a slightly different list next -- I sort of want to do a goffs Mork/dread/bikeboss/Ghaz/Boyz/MANZ/Wagons/Trukks thing. I might comeback for more questions.....
All this bike talk has me pondering how worthy they will be post/codex and whether I should pick some up....
I say it all the time - ork army is full of options and wonderful unexpected new combinations
Honestly, both lists are pretty much different from we saw before. They stink by TTS, I saw some deffdreads in alpha league videos and just the madman tries to move 3x30boyz in TTS in to the area terrain with more floors
We also had the option for a SAG mek on a warbike. Warbikes gave relentless so he could move and shoot an ordnance weapon, in a time where you couldn't move and shoot heavy weapons. I made a really cool model for that, sadly we lost the option before it saw the paintbrush.
Yeah! I' ve almost started the construction of 3 SAGbikes to ad them to my 3 regular SAGs and play 6 of them in one game! Like 2 years ago? Sweet memories.
Furthermore, every winning list having 12-18 smasha gunz just drives home the likelihood that they will get nerfed with the next codex. Probably reduce unit size to 2 per or something along those lines.
Furthermore, every winning list having 12-18 smasha gunz just drives home the likelihood that they will get nerfed with the next codex. Probably reduce unit size to 2 per or something along those lines.
Let it be the answer to the discussion, whether KMK will be better in 9th than SMG or vice versa
DS dreads with KMB and +1BS aren't really that different from buggies, basically same stats, same points cost, similar but probably better damage output since they can really fight. Slower but with many armored models that's not an issue, we don't need to throw everything in the opponent's face turn 1 or 2 anyway.
As long as elite oriented lists remain popular burna bombers will always be a solid option.
Furthermore, every winning list having 12-18 smasha gunz just drives home the likelihood that they will get nerfed with the next codex. Probably reduce unit size to 2 per or something along those lines.
Old artillery was 1-3 models per unit. Worst case scenario we would probably run 9 mek gunz at most, which is still a lot of mek gunz.
I'd really love a total rewrite on them though. 50$ models can't cost 40-65 points, I wish they make 100-150 ppm but totally worthy of that points cost.
I say it all the time - ork army is full of options and wonderful unexpected new combinations
Honestly, both lists are pretty much different from we saw before. They stink by TTS, I saw some deffdreads in alpha league videos and just the madman tries to move 3x30boyz in TTS in to the area terrain with more floors
We also had the option for a SAG mek on a warbike. Warbikes gave relentless so he could move and shoot an ordnance weapon, in a time where you couldn't move and shoot heavy weapons. I made a really cool model for that, sadly we lost the option before it saw the paintbrush.
Yeah! I' ve almost started the construction of 3 SAGbikes to ad them to my 3 regular SAGs and play 6 of them in one game! Like 2 years ago? Sweet memories.
Furthermore, every winning list having 12-18 smasha gunz just drives home the likelihood that they will get nerfed with the next codex. Probably reduce unit size to 2 per or something along those lines.
Don't forget the FW mekboy Junka. A tank that let you take a SAG as well.
I'd really love a total rewrite on them though. 50$ models can't cost 40-65 points, I wish they make 100-150 ppm but totally worthy of that points cost.
Prior 8th edition banner nob was not a character, just a possible loadout for a single guy in a nobz squad. In the 5th edition codex (that one released at the end of 4th) the painboy wasn't a character either, but just an option for a nobz squad. So in conclusion both painboy and waaagh banner were possible options for nobz squads. And warbikes were just equipment for nobz squads.
In 5th edition Nobz were extremely powerful. Typically 5 man squads, including a painboy to provide cybork bodies, a banner dude and a couple of power klaws at least. All on bikes or riding into a Battlewagon.
That all changed come 9th edition, we already lost access to a 5++ (real painful on our Warbosses)...
We gained a 4++ for our Warboss that we never had before though.
Whilst true (granted we did have access to a 4++, it just Clan locked) that we gained Da Biggest Boss, that doesnt mean it stays around come the new Codex and whilst a 4++ is good, thats strictly on 1 model. The rest of your characters are running around with a 4+ or 6+ save at best with no access to invuns in melee unless your a Badmoon Warlord or Deathskulls but a 6+++ will rarely save you as it is. Even Imperial Guard Lord Commissars and Company Commanders kept their 5++. Gaining access to one 4++ for a single Warboss doesnt replace the lose of a 5++ to numerous other characters and Nobz.
Most characters in the game have some sort of invun barring a few, Orks tend to be the exception. Ghazghkull and Badrukk are the only 2 characters in our army that has one outside of the Saga of the Beast strat.
To be fair, the 5++ went away when 7th nerfed cybork into the ground. That codex was by far the worst one ever released for orks, only to be outdone by a supplement that was so gakky that printing 120 pages each containing nothing but "Dear Ork player, feth you, we hope you die." would have been less offensive.
Jidmah wrote: To be fair, the 5++ went away when 7th nerfed cybork into the ground. That codex was by far the worst one ever released for orks, only to be outdone by a supplement that was so gakky that printing 120 pages each containing nothing but "Dear Ork player, feth you, we hope you die." would have been less offensive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is list is something different than the last two. He has almost no small infantry units etc. No kommandos. Just heavy shooting in vehicles + one blob of boyz and small trukkMANz
Yeah, kannonwagons are dope now that the big gun hits on 4s and they cost a little less.
Loss of T8 stinks but not really all that important since most things that shoot that far is S9+ anyway outside of battlecannons.
Jidmah wrote: To be fair, the 5++ went away when 7th nerfed cybork into the ground. That codex was by far the worst one ever released for orks, only to be outdone by a supplement that was so gakky that printing 120 pages each containing nothing but "Dear Ork player, feth you, we hope you die." would have been less offensive.
They even had the gall to release the WAAAAGH! Ghazzy supplement TWICE, and it was arguably worse since it took out the Green Tide formation. Man, 7th ed was a rough time for Orks.
Yeah, the formation system was a bit of a letdown for orks. Some of the Decurion type detachments were broken as hell. All we got was impact hits (s3 ones at that) if a unit fulfilled a couple conditions when charging. Most of our formations sucked squigs as well. Furious charge on the nuats when you had three. Remember that strength capped at 10 so it was hilariously useless on them.
cody.d. wrote: Yeah, the formation system was a bit of a letdown for orks. Some of the Decurion type detachments were broken as hell. All we got was impact hits (s3 ones at that) if a unit fulfilled a couple conditions when charging. Most of our formations sucked squigs as well. Furious charge on the nuats when you had three. Remember that strength capped at 10 so it was hilariously useless on them.
It was DEFINITELY not optimized for us. Versus what it gave to Necrons, Eldar, and SM, we were absolutely left behind in the dust. All we really had was what our base book gave us like the Lucky Stikk Mega Armoured Warboss, a Biker horde with KFF and Painboy support, and the brokenly worded kustom stompa with bursta kannons so we could actually bring out the D weaponry that could somewhat level the playing field for us.
If I recall correctly the bursta kannon was like, s8 ap2 (back when that ignored termie armour) and a RADIUS of 3D6 right? I'm not sure if they ever confirmed how that worked with placing the template. Since before scattering you couldn't place the template over your own models. And a potential 36" wide template would cover a lotta that board.
cody.d. wrote: If I recall correctly the bursta kannon was like, s8 ap2 (back when that ignored termie armour) and a RADIUS of 3D6 right? I'm not sure if they ever confirmed how that worked with placing the template. Since before scattering you couldn't place the template over your own models. And a potential 36" wide template would cover a lotta that board.
I believe you're referring to the belly gun. The bursta kannon was a 7" pie plate that was Strength D AP2.
cody.d. wrote: Yeah, the formation system was a bit of a letdown for orks. Some of the Decurion type detachments were broken as hell. All we got was impact hits (s3 ones at that) if a unit fulfilled a couple conditions when charging. Most of our formations sucked squigs as well. Furious charge on the nuats when you had three. Remember that strength capped at 10 so it was hilariously useless on them.
Let's also not forget that our "decurion" forced us into the Waaagh! Ghazghkull rules which were flat nerfs. You had to accept challenges (= nobz auto-kill themselves) and mob rule was worse for units with less than 10 models. But yay, you got hammer of wrath when you rolled 10 or higher on your charge!
And let's not forget the formation that forced you to deep strike 31 storm boyz, the flash gits formation which forced you to roll every single flash git one by one and the formation which gave Thrakka three warlord trait rolls on a table with 5 of those warlord traits completely useless to him. It's blatantly obvious that the supplement wasn't playtested even once and that they simply didn't give a gak about it. Not to mention that for every single formation, orks had to bring more models that you possibly field under the old rules. They were just trying to con ork players in buying more models.
The only luck was that this incompetence cut both ways so they had at least two or three formation which weren't total gak.
Would it ever make sense to take a Meka Dread w. Klaw and Killkannon in a vehicle heavy list with two Battlewagons and a Gunwagon w. Da Boomer, instead of a Kannonwagon for example?
My thinking is that the Meka Dread will find a place futher up the table and try to clear objectives, and can on occation repair a damaged Battlewagon or Buggy.
A Kannonwagon would not be able to fight effectively in close combat, so it would have to stay further back, and I already have a Boomer-wagon.
I personally find the meka dread a lot less appealing than the mega dread, a single killkannon just isn't all that impressive IMO. And the dual kannon build removes all CC capabilities so that's probably less enticing.
2 battlewagon and a gunwagon plus the meka dread means you're already looking at either 2 detachments or a spearhead (I guess a brigade would also work) and I don't think it's worth that barrier of entry. However if that's the way you're leaning even without specifically needing the meka dread then it's a decent enough choice I suppose. I would rather find some points elsewhere and do a mega dread and a mek gun. Or use 2 or even 3 deff dreads buffed with a kustom job.
Both the FW dreads are decent as distraction carnifexes but I think it's a little easier to get good mileage out of the mega variant, just because those extra attacks makes it quite scary in CC and actually has to be dealt with.
Kannonwagon has 2D6 4+ 8/-2/3 blast 60” = 3,5 hits of 8/-2/3 on 12” moving platform with unlimited range. Plus some bigshootas all-in-one 170p. That is pretty cool.
Meka Dread for almost the same price (175p) moves just 8” with degradation and his shooting is 24” D6 /-2/2 blast with just 24” range. It' s just 1,75 hits with 1/3 lower damage. With the bolter range. It' s significantly lower shooting. It' s in fact pretty bad shooting. What is totaly wrong imho is the fact, that his kannon is blast. So he can' t shoot in the cc. So you have a slow platform that shoots pretty bad and can' t use one of his 2 weapons in cc. And he has no way how to deal with mass of low W models. His klaw damage is D3+3.
If you compare it with Deffdread with Sparkli bitz, it' s A4 8/-3/D6 4+ shooting for 95p. For similar price like Meka Dread, you have 2 of them = 2xA4 on 4+ = 4 hits before rerolls and dakkadakka etc. With much more better gun on 2 independent platforms with the same T, same total number of W, same save, just slower BUT without degradation, so we can call it equal movement... DD has no CC but all his weapons can fire in CC.
If you want to speak about CC heavy cleaner, BW with deffrolla has in fact with deathskull reroll 6 hits 9/-2/2 vs. aprox 3 hits 14/-3/D3+3. Well, MekaDread seems to be better there, but with all the all kinds of infantry on the table and all these invu around, MD can be easilly uneffective.
BW with deffrola plays a different role in the game of course, but what I want to say is, that Meka Dread does not have much impressive stats now...
Yeah realistically theres no reason to field a meka dread over a kannonwagon except for cool points (walkers win over tanks imo)
Better range, better damage, some extra bigshoota guns, meka maybe sliiiiiightly more durable but the sheer range of the supakannon offsets that.
(iirc for some reason the kannonwagon lacks ramshackle)
I mean, if you already have the model and like the model then I'd try it out a couple of games. It does have a little more versatility than a kannonwagon so there's some upside. It's a cool fluffy unit that by no means is bad IMO. Overall though, it's just one of those units that has a few options in the codex/IA that are actually quite good.
No its definitely not bad its just funny that the kannonwagon is the same slot, like 5pt difference, and superior gun lol.
I mean, you could go 1 gun 1 klaw so you actually have melee but at that point just go megadread....a single killkannon even hitting on 4s isnt that great.
Yeah, they would have to significantly buff the killkannon in the new codex for the meka dred to be worth considering over the kannonwagon. Who knows? That might happen. I'm just hoping there's some kustom jobz that apply to the WALKERZ keyword rather than specific units so that way FW units can get some love when we get the new book.
Yea the Meka Dread is somewhat useless. Its entire selling point is the repair ability which is probably not why you would go for this thing.
And maybe its +4 BS.
If you go for double kill kannons = might as well go kannon wagon.
If you go for double CC weapons = Might as well go Mega Dread.
If you go for one kill kannon and one CC weapon then its probably the only thing that makes sense, but even then, as someone said, jack of all trades but master of none. If the Meka dread actually retained its KFF it would be a different story. Being a little bit good at CC, and being able to shoot a little too, sounds like a bad deal to me. Id rather go all in on one or the other in this case. You also cant fire your kill kannon in CC if you ever run in to CC as its a blast weapon so you could effectively take away that arm if you go in to CC.
The Mega Dread is a solid unit though, and it even has build in "flamethrowers" as well as a mini ramming speed. That unit has things going for it, the Meka dread having its "repair" ability going for it isnt good at all, and its BS of 4 also isnt that appealing when you can just buy a kannon wagon. The Meka dread shouldnt have lost the damn KFF. to me that was the only reason it would compete against a Mega Dread. Now i fail to see a competition between the two.
FW could at least have given the Meka Dread some kind of "force field generator" to give itself a 5+ invuln to make up for the loss of the KFF.
It has so many bitz and pieces strapped onto it that could represent some "kustom sparkly gubbin". That or it could have retained the extra attacks for the repair klaws, welder and drill bit.
I couldn't imagine a resourceful Mek NOT using those featues in close combat!
I wonder if it's too wishful to imagine that we may get a sort of cryptek treatment. Different meks with different specliazations. It would give them an excuse to sell us a few unique or multipart mek models. Zog knows i'd buy em up. Sides that i'm honestly not sure what they could release for orks. Some super heavy infantry?
I still think we're getting new kommandos and tankbustas, I don't know if the new ork model we've seen teased is a kommando but I wouldn't be surprised if he was. We also have a bunch of rumour engines which makes me lean the way of those two new kits.
Honestly, if they just buff the killkannon to be flat 6 shots instead of d6 then that would mean it loses the blast rule and suddenly becomes far more potent both at range and on a dual purpose platform, such as the meka dread.
cody.d. wrote: I wonder if it's too wishful to imagine that we may get a sort of cryptek treatment. Different meks with different specliazations. It would give them an excuse to sell us a few unique or multipart mek models. Zog knows i'd buy em up. Sides that i'm honestly not sure what they could release for orks. Some super heavy infantry?
They could start with giving the mini mek rules that doesn't make it a joke to bring.
Nope i pretty much agree with it all except i'd probably put the gargsquig even lower.
Seriously they neutered that thing (....kinda funny to say that since its actually modeled with a...ahem...thingy). Even if it didnt cost 3cp to use it i wouldnt use it anymore.
Also i dont see regular squiggoths, bigtrakk, or meka/mega dreads. Assuming no input on them yourself or am i blind?
Yeah, there is no real way for me to judge them competitively, and of the few people here who actually use them even less play them against competitive opponents.
IMO ranking FW stuff isn't as important as people usually either know exactly what they are getting into when shelling out for FW models/starting a scratchbuild project or they don't care that much for the gaming value to begin with.
What about Nobz on Warbikes? I know they're a FW entry but the models don't have to be from FW. I'd put them in Cyan Teir because they hit hard and have an extreme threat range.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: What about Nobz on Warbikes? I know they're a FW entry but the models don't have to be from FW. I'd put them in Cyan Teir because they hit hard and have an extreme threat range.
I feel like they're still Blue tier and not cyan personally. Their role as a speedy assault unit is mostly filled by scrapjets and the WB on Warbike at the moment and scrapjets are versatile enough to be good at both shooting and CC, whereas Biker nobz pretty much only have their CC to rely on since their dakkaguns are only useful against chaff units at best. They're still very fragile at their points cost and being 40 points a nob with a killsaw means they are significantly less cost efficient compared to dual killsaw meganobz. I've tried using a full squad before with limited success and it feels like I could have always taken something else that does more than they do. It also doesn't help that most biker units in the game right now just isn't that good since they lack numbers and in our case don't get obsec like Meganobz can from the Deffskullz trait.
Big trakk should be there. Cyan tier. It' s pretty usefull unit. Significantly better than trukk for a very good price. Only con is the slot eliminating his use in combination with other more important heavy units like BW or Mek gunz.
I use it like a “better” trukk in my buggy list every game since FW rulebook dropped in pair with deffrola BW. And honestly, he annoys opponents almost the same like the BW except the CC. For the half of the price of BW.
He' s 14” move, T6 W12 for 85p which makes him faster and better price-per-wound than any buggy. His 2 big shootas can (and do) actualy kill some last wounds every game and he deals MW in charge pretty regularly for free and makes opponent to shoot at empty transport.
Trukk is just 20p cheaper for 2 less wounds, 2” less movement and in fact zero combat abilities. After disembark, it' s a useless brick.
Oh yes, and the Big Trakk is a model to win - large footprint and low profile makes him hold objectives far away and hide behind the containers.
Tomsug wrote: Big trakk should be there. Cyan tier. It' s pretty usefull unit. Significantly better than trukk for a very good price. Only con is the slot eliminating his use in combination with other more important heavy units like BW or Mek gunz.
I use it like a “better” trukk in my buggy list every game since FW rulebook dropped in pair with deffrola BW. And honestly, he annoys opponents almost the same like the BW except the CC. For the half of the price of BW.
He' s 14” move, T6 W12 for 85p which makes him faster and better price-per-wound than any buggy. His 2 big shootas can (and do) actualy kill some last wounds every game and he deals MW in charge pretty regularly for free and makes opponent to shoot at empty transport.
Trukk is just 20p cheaper for 2 less wounds, 2” less movement and in fact zero combat abilities. After disembark, it' s a useless brick.
Oh yes, and the Big Trakk is a model to win - large footprint and low profile makes him hold objectives far away and hide behind the containers.
Agreed, the only potential downside to the Big Trakk is that it is worth 2 VP instead of the Trukk's 1VP when it comes to tallying how VP's they're worth for Bring it Down, though if you're going all in on vehicles your opponent would be likely maxing it anyways.
Jidmah, I was about to ask you for the reason why you put the Gunwagon w. Da Boomer in a lower tier than the Kannonwagon, but then I did the math.
Boomer does 9,3 wounds to a single target before DDD, while the Kannonwagon does 10,5.
The kannonwagon is 10pts and 1 CP cheaper, while also having longer range.
If you can target groups of W1-2 infantry, then Da Boomer would be better, but as far as I can see, the Kannonwagon is better at shooting at elite infantry, vehicles and monsters with its D3.
Why should one equip the Deff dreads with 1-3 KMBs rather than 4?
I mean if you are going deathskullz and go KMBs why not go all 4? If you have 3 of them, and one saw or klaw, you might as well go all 4 id say. If you had 3 KMBs would you really charge the Deff dread in to combat with 1 CC weapon? thats 3 attacks only.
If anything then maybe 2 CC weapons and 2 KMBs.
Personally id probably go all 4 KMBs, as they're dedicated anti tanking with those guns. Might as well keep it full CC or full ranged as i see it. If i run KMBs id try to avoid CC.
Beardedragon wrote: Why should one equip the Deff dreads with 1-3 KMBs rather than 4?
I mean if you are going deathskullz and go KMBs why not go all 4? If you have 3 of them, and one saw or klaw, you might as well go all 4 id say. If you had 3 KMBs would you really charge the Deff dread in to combat with 1 CC weapon? thats 3 attacks only.
If anything then maybe 2 CC weapons and 2 KMBs.
Personally id probably go all 4 KMBs, as they're dedicated anti tanking with those guns. Might as well keep it full CC or full ranged as i see it. If i run KMBs id try to avoid CC.
This is something I have been putting a fair bit of thought into for my dreads - I want to run 3 with KMB and shiny bitz as deathskulls for ultimate anti-tank death dealing.
On the one hand, 4kmb is better than 3, and the "unit" gets 3 extra shots out of it.
On the other hand, 3KMB + 1 saw is good for all-rounding, and less likely to be tied in combat. It can also open a vehicle up to finish it off in CC, which also lets it reposition in the charge phase.
In the end, the thing that's swinging it for me is my desire to model the dreads as wielding a single large gun in humanoid arms/hands. The temptation to make that gun a triple-barrel KMB with an underslung saw akin to Gears of War is too great, and is overpowering the quad-barrel KMB!
Beardedragon wrote: Why should one equip the Deff dreads with 1-3 KMBs rather than 4?
I mean if you are going deathskullz and go KMBs why not go all 4? If you have 3 of them, and one saw or klaw, you might as well go all 4 id say. If you had 3 KMBs would you really charge the Deff dread in to combat with 1 CC weapon? thats 3 attacks only.
If anything then maybe 2 CC weapons and 2 KMBs.
Personally id probably go all 4 KMBs, as they're dedicated anti tanking with those guns. Might as well keep it full CC or full ranged as i see it. If i run KMBs id try to avoid CC.
This is something I have been putting a fair bit of thought into for my dreads - I want to run 3 with KMB and shiny bitz as deathskulls for ultimate anti-tank death dealing.
On the one hand, 4kmb is better than 3, and the "unit" gets 3 extra shots out of it.
On the other hand, 3KMB + 1 saw is good for all-rounding, and less likely to be tied in combat. It can also open a vehicle up to finish it off in CC, which also lets it reposition in the charge phase.
In the end, the thing that's swinging it for me is my desire to model the dreads as wielding a single large gun in humanoid arms/hands. The temptation to make that gun a triple-barrel KMB with an underslung saw akin to Gears of War is too great, and is overpowering the quad-barrel KMB!
I see what you're going for, but i was thinking, having 3 attacks with a klaw or buzzsaw might not really make any difference at all in the department of getting out of a tarpit situation. So if one were to be an all rounder i feel like going for 2CC weps and 2 ranged weapons woud make more sense.
That or full CC, or Full KMBs.
I have 2 Deff dreads only, which are full CC because i mainly play Goff or Evil Sunz and havent played long enough to be smart enough to magnetize my weapons when i actually received my Deff Dreads. But i could imagine that if i wanted to go ranged Deff Dreads, and REALLY get the most out of that +1 BS from Sparkly bits, then id go for a full load of 4 KMBs or 4 rokkits. having 3 rokkits/KMBs means you waste 1 arm that doesnt receive any benefits from that sparkly bits so thats a damage loss as i see it.
Otherwise just keep it CC friendly with maybe 1 scorcha and 3 CC weps. or full house of 4 CC weapons.
Bonde wrote: Jidmah, I was about to ask you for the reason why you put the Gunwagon w. Da Boomer in a lower tier than the Kannonwagon, but then I did the math.
Boomer does 9,3 wounds to a single target before DDD, while the Kannonwagon does 10,5. The kannonwagon is 10pts and 1 CP cheaper, while also having longer range.
If you can target groups of W1-2 infantry, then Da Boomer would be better, but as far as I can see, the Kannonwagon is better at shooting at elite infantry, vehicles and monsters with its D3.
Between deathwing, transhuman, gravis, the entire death guard and -1 to hit on many harlequin units there are just too many high level match-ups where you really don't want to have a boomer on your side of the table.
In fact, when I'm currently running a gunwagon, even the zagzap feels like a better choice than da boomer.
BS4 and 3 damage avoid almost many of these problems, so I feel like the kannonwagon deserves to be a full tier higher than da boomer when it comes to bringing a TAC list.
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Tomsug wrote: Big trakk should be there. Cyan tier. It' s pretty usefull unit. Significantly better than trukk for a very good price. Only con is the slot eliminating his use in combination with other more important heavy units like BW or Mek gunz.
I use it like a “better” trukk in my buggy list every game since FW rulebook dropped in pair with deffrola BW. And honestly, he annoys opponents almost the same like the BW except the CC. For the half of the price of BW.
He' s 14” move, T6 W12 for 85p which makes him faster and better price-per-wound than any buggy. His 2 big shootas can (and do) actualy kill some last wounds every game and he deals MW in charge pretty regularly for free and makes opponent to shoot at empty transport.
Trukk is just 20p cheaper for 2 less wounds, 2” less movement and in fact zero combat abilities. After disembark, it' s a useless brick.
Oh yes, and the Big Trakk is a model to win - large footprint and low profile makes him hold objectives far away and hide behind the containers.
I see, but how do lists that use them look like? IMO trukks are primarily used in armies that want to bring things like nauts, wagons or mek guns and not waste their slots on something that's "just" a transport.
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Beardedragon wrote: Why should one equip the Deff dreads with 1-3 KMBs rather than 4?
I mean if you are going deathskullz and go KMBs why not go all 4? If you have 3 of them, and one saw or klaw, you might as well go all 4 id say. If you had 3 KMBs would you really charge the Deff dread in to combat with 1 CC weapon? thats 3 attacks only.
If anything then maybe 2 CC weapons and 2 KMBs.
Personally id probably go all 4 KMBs, as they're dedicated anti tanking with those guns. Might as well keep it full CC or full ranged as i see it. If i run KMBs id try to avoid CC.
In general a KMB is not worth 10 points unless you have deathskulls re-rolls. The more KMB you bring in a unit, the less likely they are to benefit from re-rolls. There have been good arguments for having one, two or three KMB depending on your playstyle, so I just put it down like that. Personally I run 2 and 2 klaws, as I use them as cavalry that needs to be able to help in any situation.
However, the fourth KMB is not only very unlikely to be more valuable than a KMB on a goff or evil suns KMB, but it also completely eliminates the dread's ability to seriously hurt anyone in combat. Even if you try to avoid combat, you probably want it to hold an objective at some point. A dread with even a single saw is a serious threat most obsec units, one without can just be charged by a bunch of tactical marines and loses the objective to them at zero risk for the marine player.
Big Trakk - I see, but how do lists that use them look like? IMO trukks are primarily used in armies that want to bring things like nauts, wagons or mek guns and not waste their slots on something that's "just" a transport.
Liam Hacket triple SAG from Adeliede open is exactly the type of the list - his core is from Fast attack (does not need the transport, but neither the Heavy slot) and Elite, where the Elites needs some transport. Tankbustas or MANz are exactly the type of the crew that benefits form more W and 2” of extra move to get into the position. He used Trukks and I say use Big Trakks willbe also a solid choice, better in some aspects, more expensive on other side.
Or my list bunch of buggies and 2 transports to carry megamek/warboss cc beast and obsec 10boyz squads with killsaw and the rest are the buggies. No need of heavy slot either.
But I'm don' t have the competitive references from some tournament, I' m not Liam Hacket I just win a lot games with such list right now despite just a small amount of the experineces behind my belt.
I'm still not convinced. For 9th theory crafting matters less than ever. I really would need to have actual evidence of it running against somewhat competitive lists to properly judge it.
I would just assume if you went for sparkly bits, having 4KMBs would be better than 3, as the last CC arm you give the Deff dread, dont benefit from that 1CP you just paid for.
4 KMBs hitting on 4s is around 50% hit chance. + 1 reroll makes it higher, if you went death skulls of course, which i would if i went KMBs. Otherwise i probably wouldnt use them, unless you do some Buzzgob Shinanigans that i havent tried yet.
Is Buzzgob really that low tho? I mean 100 points for his +1 to hit in shooting and CC phase is pretty good as it combines with Sparkly bits. He effectively turns Walkers in to death machines. Sure he has no KFF but march him behind the Morkanaut and you still get the KFF, and that unit would hit on 3s in the shooting phase.
Mork/gorkanauts hitting on 3s in the shooting phase with sparkly bits? yes please.
Killa Kanz would hit in the shooting phase on 2s if you give them sparkly bits too.
Bonde wrote: Jidmah, I was about to ask you for the reason why you put the Gunwagon w. Da Boomer in a lower tier than the Kannonwagon, but then I did the math.
Boomer does 9,3 wounds to a single target before DDD, while the Kannonwagon does 10,5.
The kannonwagon is 10pts and 1 CP cheaper, while also having longer range.
If you can target groups of W1-2 infantry, then Da Boomer would be better, but as far as I can see, the Kannonwagon is better at shooting at elite infantry, vehicles and monsters with its D3.
Out of curiosity, is this after taking Periscope into account?
Beardedragon wrote: Why should one equip the Deff dreads with 1-3 KMBs rather than 4?
I mean if you are going deathskullz and go KMBs why not go all 4? If you have 3 of them, and one saw or klaw, you might as well go all 4 id say. If you had 3 KMBs would you really charge the Deff dread in to combat with 1 CC weapon? thats 3 attacks only.
If anything then maybe 2 CC weapons and 2 KMBs.
Personally id probably go all 4 KMBs, as they're dedicated anti tanking with those guns. Might as well keep it full CC or full ranged as i see it. If i run KMBs id try to avoid CC.
This is something I have been putting a fair bit of thought into for my dreads - I want to run 3 with KMB and shiny bitz as deathskulls for ultimate anti-tank death dealing.
On the one hand, 4kmb is better than 3, and the "unit" gets 3 extra shots out of it.
On the other hand, 3KMB + 1 saw is good for all-rounding, and less likely to be tied in combat. It can also open a vehicle up to finish it off in CC, which also lets it reposition in the charge phase.
In the end, the thing that's swinging it for me is my desire to model the dreads as wielding a single large gun in humanoid arms/hands. The temptation to make that gun a triple-barrel KMB with an underslung saw akin to Gears of War is too great, and is overpowering the quad-barrel KMB!
I see what you're going for, but i was thinking, having 3 attacks with a klaw or buzzsaw might not really make any difference at all in the department of getting out of a tarpit situation. So if one were to be an all rounder i feel like going for 2CC weps and 2 ranged weapons woud make more sense.
That or full CC, or Full KMBs.
I have 2 Deff dreads only, which are full CC because i mainly play Goff or Evil Sunz and havent played long enough to be smart enough to magnetize my weapons when i actually received my Deff Dreads. But i could imagine that if i wanted to go ranged Deff Dreads, and REALLY get the most out of that +1 BS from Sparkly bits, then id go for a full load of 4 KMBs or 4 rokkits. having 3 rokkits/KMBs means you waste 1 arm that doesnt receive any benefits from that sparkly bits so thats a damage loss as i see it.
Otherwise just keep it CC friendly with maybe 1 scorcha and 3 CC weps. or full house of 4 CC weapons.
In my experience, full CC and full ranged deff dreads are both hot garbage. I would consider deff dreads only good in CC against 2 wound troops when they can use the dreaded death machine strategem and make use of their 2-3D weapons. Against nearly everything else they are pretty lackluster due to the fact that they don't have enough attacks to finish a unit and will likely die to the counterpunch because they are paper thin. IMO the best way to run them is as deffskullz with 3 KMB 1 klaw so that, as Jidmah stated earlier, they can maximize the effects of the rerolls and still have a good melee profile to finish things off in cc if they have to. This also keeps them from getting tied up in melee by a shield unit. My experience against most armies with any shooting at all is that if you want them to live past round 2 and get their points worth, tellyport them in, shoot priority targets, and then charge to finish them off or charge a squishy troop unit for dreaded death machine.
Bonde wrote: Jidmah, I was about to ask you for the reason why you put the Gunwagon w. Da Boomer in a lower tier than the Kannonwagon, but then I did the math.
Boomer does 9,3 wounds to a single target before DDD, while the Kannonwagon does 10,5.
The kannonwagon is 10pts and 1 CP cheaper, while also having longer range.
If you can target groups of W1-2 infantry, then Da Boomer would be better, but as far as I can see, the Kannonwagon is better at shooting at elite infantry, vehicles and monsters with its D3.
Out of curiosity, is this after taking Periscope into account?
Yes, I calculated with 14 shots on average for the Boomer, and 7 shots on average for the Kannonwagon.
Jidmah wrote: I'm still not convinced. For 9th theory crafting matters less than ever. I really would need to have actual evidence of it running against somewhat competitive lists to properly judge it.
Yeah ive stopped using the Gunwagon unless im running evil sunz. I think its better when it has pure rerolls, especially against 2W models which are abundant these days, but kannonwagon both has range, doesnt need Visions buff to function, and 3D guns are rare in ork lists outside of paper-bustas. Dabooma 4D6 shots being less damaging than Kannonwagon 2D6 shots just shows how massive hitting on 4s is...
W/o visions i swear i get 2-4 hits with Dabooma on average, even if i get a high number of shots.
Yeah, I've found da Boomer to be very underwhelming, BS5+ just doesn't cut it for the price you pay for it. GW definitely need to give the gunwagon BS4+ base to make it worth considering.
I think the biggest killer for the boomer is the CP you have to spend for it. A decent transport size combined with ok firepower is pretty good, but that CP is really holding it back for me.
Afrodactyl wrote: I think the biggest killer for the boomer is the CP you have to spend for it. A decent transport size combined with ok firepower is pretty good, but that CP is really holding it back for me.
Definitely. Frankly speaking, the Boomer should just be the base killkannon statline to begin with. 1D6 shots, especially with orky BS, is kinda garbage when you have the sheer quantity of shots coming from other factions that have similar weapon stats.
Actually, most lists don't bring pain boyz anymore, some even skip KFFs completely. The medi-squig is a cool trick, but it eats away at the CP you need for expensive stratagems like tide and fighting twice on top of scar boyz. Without a way to boost aura range, revives or multi-wound models to heal, it's just not that useful.
As for the Morkanaut, I have played it a lot, For a mechanized list, it's definitely not a worse investment of points than anything else in that category - especially in regards to the traffic jam issue those lists often face.
I think the morkanaut is fine as either teal or blue, but probably leaning more blue.. If it had 1 less wound on the datasheet I'd call it teal every day, but losing the obscuring rule is a really big deal IMO.
If GW dares give the gunwagon and morkanaut BS4+ base then the heavy support slot is suddenly going to become way more interesting IMO.
What is annoying is, that gunwagon is T8 4+ and Kannonwagon T7 3+. I see the different T due the Open top. But save? There is no logic and it makes a mess in the game...
Jidmah, you wrote, that you prefer ZagZap over Da Boomer on Gunwagon. Could you elaborate it? Do you feel that autohitting is strong enough by eliminating all kinds of -1 to hit from terrain and in combination with MW on 9+ to kill terminators?
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), then they need to come up with another way to mitgate damage so we feel actually tougher than what we are now.
and pull my MANZWagon back a bit to screen out and protect my weirdboy/smasha guns from the termie drop. Mork, the dragsta, and the stormboyz all take up a space in his backboard and blow up a defiler even before the charge (
