Unless they pull the switch-a-roo like they did with marines powerfist/chainfist, theres no reason to use klaws over saws.
On average it causes the same damage but has 1 less AP and random damage means realistically its causing less damage, for the same price.
D3 damage is bad. Quite literally everything that has it that isnt basically feeling like a free bonus feels overpriced.
Klaw is better only for the purpose of the relic claw, or I guess with deathskulls allowing a reroll of the d3 damage, but even then...
I would magnetize though, they WILL pull the switch-a-roo for our next codex if they feel like it, and make klaws flat 3 damage just to laugh at all the players who went through the trouble of converting stuff with buzz saws. They are EVIL
addnid wrote: Klaw is better only for the purpose of the relic claw, or I guess with deathskulls allowing a reroll of the d3 damage, but even then...
I would magnetize though, they WILL pull the switch-a-roo for our next codex if they feel like it, and make klaws flat 3 damage just to laugh at all the players who went through the trouble of converting stuff with buzz saws. They are EVIL
eh, i feel like ork claw vs killsaw most players will not care which you say it is. kind of like eldar weapons on vehicles. people don't know them so just accept them as anything.
addnid wrote: Klaw is better only for the purpose of the relic claw, or I guess with deathskulls allowing a reroll of the d3 damage, but even then...
I would magnetize though, they WILL pull the switch-a-roo for our next codex if they feel like it, and make klaws flat 3 damage just to laugh at all the players who went through the trouble of converting stuff with buzz saws. They are EVIL
eh, i feel like ork claw vs killsaw most players will not care which you say it is. kind of like eldar weapons on vehicles. people don't know them so just accept them as anything.
Yeah, I agree with this sentiment. I've never run into someone who wouldn't let me count klaws as saws and vice-versa. Anyway ork weapons work because they believe they do.
I have to vote for Big Mek in MA! If you improve him via Da Kleverest Boss and give him relict Klaw and Warlord trait, he becames great 2-in-1 package - strong as a Warboss and giving KFF 9” aura in the same time.
Spare points, spare HQ slots and if you have 7p more, you can have one KMB with deathskulls reroll for fun!
I use him last aprox. 5 months. Now he rides a Big Trakk with 10 boyz and contesting objectives very decent way.
zoltan88 wrote: Is this list up to date for the current meta? I am specifically interested in HQ options. I see a lot of tournament lists that have the Big Mek in MA, but its tiered so low here.
Also, are forge world units not allowed in tournaments?
First post tier list hasn't been updated, since I expected six additional codices to be released until March, and orks likely to be one of them due to the model preview. Since that has changed, it might actually be worth putting some effort into it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: I have to vote for Big Mek in MA! If you improve him via Da Kleverest Boss and give him relict Klaw and Warlord trait, he becames great 2-in-1 package - strong as a Warboss and giving KFF 9” aura in the same time.
Spare points, spare HQ slots and if you have 7p more, you can have one KMB with deathskulls reroll for fun!
I use him last aprox. 5 months. Now he rides a Big Trakk with 10 boyz and contesting objectives very decent way.
Same here. Started using him as mini-warboss and he works great. He can even hold objectives by himself, as 2+/5++ makes him surprisingly durable, and he can wipe many units off objectives by himself.
Yeah ive been using the magamek a lot lately.
Both because of the KFF and also because snipers are a problem in my area for some weird reason, and half our HQs are tissuepaper for some dumb reason.
Yeah, his 2+ save makes it so you don't always have to bank on using a 4+ invuln. save that can be very hit or miss depending on how the dice gods feel like. Especially if he's in cover, he can tank any wayward bolters a lot more effectively or units that rely on massed attacks. Throw in on top the extra utility that everyone else has mentioned and he's a real toolkit of an HQ choice.
I'd like some advice for playing on terrain dense tables, loaded with obscuring and LoS blocking terrain and tight enough to make good shots at 18 to 24 inches rare. The couple games I've played on it, large footprint squads felt at a disadvantage and I just kinda removed models in an environment where my Space Marine enemy came prepared for an assault oriented space. The unit that is eating me alive is a dead killy termie squad that strikes first in CC, prompting me to shoot it.
How does an ork list build to compete with this? It chews through bodies a touch too fast for me to tarpit it.
Rismonite wrote: I'd like some advice for playing on terrain dense tables, loaded with obscuring and LoS blocking terrain and tight enough to make good shots at 18 to 24 inches rare. The couple games I've played on it, large footprint squads felt at a disadvantage and I just kinda removed models in an environment where my Space Marine enemy came prepared for an assault oriented space. The unit that is eating me alive is a dead killy termie squad that strikes first in CC, prompting me to shoot it.
How does an ork list build to compete with this? It chews through bodies a touch too fast for me to tarpit it.
I suggest watching the TTS video on how to properly set up 9th edition tables. In my group we essentially had the same situation and armies with powerful melee like harlequins, marines or slanesh daemons just auto-won most of their games.
Essentially, if you mix obscuring, dense, barricades and pure LoS blockers (containers/rocks) about equally, the game plays much better.
Rismonite wrote: I'd like some advice for playing on terrain dense tables, loaded with obscuring and LoS blocking terrain and tight enough to make good shots at 18 to 24 inches rare. The couple games I've played on it, large footprint squads felt at a disadvantage and I just kinda removed models in an environment where my Space Marine enemy came prepared for an assault oriented space. The unit that is eating me alive is a dead killy termie squad that strikes first in CC, prompting me to shoot it.
How does an ork list build to compete with this? It chews through bodies a touch too fast for me to tarpit it.
As Jidmah said, terrain is important in both how it blocks line of sight and also movement restrictions. The terrain type that takes 2" of movement and charge to get past would be great for you to hide key units behind.
Also, small units of Kommandoz are a pretty common and useful unit to have around. Placing them out of line of sight just in front of other important units can help keep the termies out of combat with anything worth while. Letting you counter charge with something that will do damage to the marines and rob them of the first swing. If it's difficult for a unit to draw LOS from one side of the board to another then cheap units like grots may have a longer lifespan meaning you can use them to draw units into the open or just stop the enemy from moving where they want.
The only thing I wonder about with the megamek is base 4 movement speed. You're putting him in a big really? Seems like not as much use out of the KFF as you would get from a horde and a slogging mek.
On paper, he's definitely nice. I just don't know what do to with the guy, per se. He seems to want to be with meganobz in a transport, but what then is the advantage of the KFF? Just to buff the transport with a 5++? Also, MANz have a 2+ and don't seem to appreciate a KFF as much as boyz.
What do you run inside the big trakk and how do you use it? I'm curious because, on paper, yes he is appealing.
its only 1" difference from the regular mek, it honestly does not make much of a difference. Either you arent moving that quick in the first place because KFF range is way shorter than the vehicle move speed, or its boosting away to charge.
Even a footmek with KFF, unless it embarks, is left in the dust.
TedNugent wrote: The only thing I wonder about with the megamek is base 4 movement speed. You're putting him in a big really? Seems like not as much use out of the KFF as you would get from a horde and a slogging mek.
On paper, he's definitely nice. I just don't know what do to with the guy, per se. He seems to want to be with meganobz in a transport, but what then is the advantage of the KFF? Just to buff the transport with a 5++? Also, MANz have a 2+ and don't seem to appreciate a KFF as much as boyz.
What do you run inside the big trakk and how do you use it? I'm curious because, on paper, yes he is appealing.
The KFF really only protects stuff from alpha-strikes during the first two turns. Afterwards the army has driven off or spread out and you are are left with a fairly useless character. On the other hand a foot warboss is fairly useless for the first two turns and starts kicking around stuff once he reaches combat in turn 2 or 3. Having both rolled into one just feels right as you aren't pulling around dead weight, no matter what phase of the game you are in.
The 4" really doesn't that much in 9th since enemies are going to be coming your way.
talking non competitively speaking, is Tin'eads subculture worth it? I mean +1 to hit in close combat, but you could just add a waaagh banner for the same effect (thus freeing you to take another culture) and i dont assume the two things stack together.
As others said there isn't a significant difference between 4'' and 5'', especially if you run blob of boyz and a Weirdboy with Da Jump.
Big Mek in Megarmor is definitely solid, however he's not a Warboss. The Big Mek is mostly there for a defensive role, while the Warboss is a better option if you want a melee specialist. He's flat out more killy in combat and he actually has an invuln that works in melee. Against units that are able to deal serious damage in combat Big Mek's 2+ save is significantly worse than a 4++, not to mention that the Warboss also has +1T and +1W other than +1S and +1A.
So it's really down to what the ork player needs, both options are solid.
In regular games with 2+ HQs I prefer the Warboss + Big Mek with KFF combination as it's cheap and effective and I like to run them together. However if I wanted to field blobs of boyz and a Weirdboy I'd definitely trade both the Warboss and the standard Big Mek with a Big Mek in Megarmor. Warboss + Megamored Big Mek is also a solid combination for those who want both an offensive fighter to rush towards the enemy and a capable defensive character to babysit home objectives.
For armies that work with a single HQ, like patrols in smaller games, the Big Mek in Megarmor is an excellent candidate for the Warlord role.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: talking non competitively speaking, is Tin'eads subculture worth it? I mean +1 to hit in close combat, but you could just add a waaagh banner for the same effect and i dont assume the two things stack together.
I've run them multiple times in casual to semi-competitive games and they're definitely fun, if you like walkers and megarmours. The banner only works for those units which also have a -1 to hit, like Meganobz, as you can't have +2 to hit total. No Killa Kanz hitting on 3s sadly. IMHO the banner is not worth with Tin 'Eadz (or any other klan actually) as you can have lots of melee specialists that hit on 2s anyway such as BW/Bonebreakas, Nauts, Dreads, Warboss, Big Mek in Megamor and the Meganobz hitting on 3s are already scary.
But the same units could hit on 2s (minus mega nobz) if you just brought a banner for what, 85 points? This will be made redundant i guess after turn 3 where units start splitting though.
Thats why i was wondering if the culture was good when the banner could give the exact same effect.
But i guess having that +1 to hit for many units even without the need for a banner nearby is pretty decent too
Beardedragon wrote: But the same units could hit on 2s (minus mega nobz) if you just brought a banner for what, 85 points? This will be made redundant i guess after turn 3 where units start splitting though.
Thats why i was wondering if the culture was good when the banner could give the exact same effect.
But i guess having that +1 to hit for many units even without the need for a banner nearby is pretty decent too
Yeah, there's the tax cost of the banner and you can't spread out the units to get the benefit. Dreads in particular love to split up after deployment and a kustom job that makes them faster, the Gorkanaut typically deep strikes etc... With Tin eadz you get the bonus without the limitations that a 6'' aura ability provides. The cost is the loss of more effective kultur bonuses for shooty units, which puts them a step behind the top 3 klans. However if you want a list that is heavily focussed on assault oriented walkers and meganobz Tin 'Eadz is actually a legit option to consider.
walkers and meganobz being better with the deathskulls trait (vor different reasons) doesn't push players to choose tin heads though.
Perhaps if the Deathskulls trait gets nerfed a bit.
I love the idea behind tin heads, if it was "all ork vehicules + meganobz" I would most def be using it. Kill tanks hitting on 3s in melee for the win !!!
I run a buggy list with 2 transports. Each of them has 5++ to be able to spread during deploy and last long, each of them has 10 boyz to bully weak units, do obsec and die during explosion of the transport and one character to bully the strong ones.
Now I use Battlewagon Forktress with Kaptin Baldruk + 10 boyz and Big Trakk with MA Mek + 10 boyz and it works great.
1” of movement less is definitely not an issue. He drives to objective and enemies comes to him...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blackie - have you seen Karate Kid? The best defence is more offense! My MA Big Mek is definitely not a defensive unit. It' s a pure offensive unit. The type of offensive unit that prefers not to die before get to CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Played another game tonight, IG again... I' ve wipe him out T3 for various reasons, so the game was not so interesting. Except following notes:
1. It' s fine to play any game now...
2. Big Trakk has a really low profile. It' s a serious competitive adventage! It can hide behind the container!
3. First game with my almost finished KBBs. And you were right - it' s very fine unit. I 've switched 5 SMGs for 2 KBB pimped up by Squig Tyres and aaaargh! Such a pleasure to have multipourpose M14” unit instead those sitting ducks!
4. SJD should work in pairs. One of them mostly seriously damage something, but you need to kill it. 2 SJD are the right number for Leman Russes and most of other similar stuff.
5. 5 kommandos without Nob are absolutely fine and strong unit to bully all kinds of scions, guardsmans or conscripts. I use 3 kommandos, just one of them has a Nob
Blackie - have you seen Karate Kid? The best defence is more offense! My MA Big Mek is definitely not a defensive unit. It' s a pure offensive unit. The type of offensive unit that prefers not to die before get to CC.
He's hands down worse than a warboss though, and its main ability is definitely a defensive buff. He's great to defend objectives that have already been conquered by someone else. Of course if there isn't a warboss in the list he can play an offensive role, but he can't really compete against melee specialists (SM are easily AP-4 in combat on turn3), even average ones, as he's only got his T4 and no invuln.
Agree on KBBs (amazing!!) and min cheapest squads of kommandos. I haven't tried the big trakk yet, but it sounds fun.
Blackie - have you seen Karate Kid? The best defence is more offense! My MA Big Mek is definitely not a defensive unit. It' s a pure offensive unit. The type of offensive unit that prefers not to die before get to CC.
He's hands down worse than a warboss though, and its main ability is definitely a defensive buff. He's great to defend objectives that have already been conquered by someone else. Of course if there isn't a warboss in the list he can play an offensive role, but he can't really compete against melee specialists (SM are easily AP-4 in combat on turn3), even average ones, as he's only got his T4 and no invuln.
Agree on KBBs (amazing!!) and min cheapest squads of kommandos. I haven't tried the big trakk yet, but it sounds fun.
That is right, MA BM is definitely weaker than warboss. But be fair. Pimped up Warboss can slay the knight in one turn. No problem. It' s far beyond “melee specialist”. Warboss is a melee superhero. MABA can slay the Leman Russ in one charge. That is enought to call him attack unit. His best cover is to be in melee.
Defending character is Kaptin Baldruk, sitting behind and firing plasma out.
Big Trakk - well... this is it... compare the sizes of Big Trakk, Battlewagon and containers... Big Trakk is really sneaking...
Well, I' ve found my Speedfreak buggy list almost finished. Time to start thinking about some new ork army project for the next 1-2 years. But what?
I 'm looking for something interesting from the modeling and painting side of the view but also with potential to be fairly competitive sometime in the future. Aprox 2. Years ago I' ve decided to make buggies and here we go, they works fine now So what next? This time I focus little bit more on fun during play and modeling. I have 2 super competitive lists already and these are too strong in my beerhammer group already....
Basicly, there are following direction I have in mind
1. Ride of Valkiers - Chinork is dead. I know. But I have still about 20 AOBR deffkoptas salvaged from ebay during last few years and 3 jets and I would like to make the fourth one. I don' t have any stormboyz jet, this could be another fragment. The idea behind this is super fast terrain ignoring army. In mission focused 9th ed, this could be effective. Let' s say todays Harlequin equivalent.
2. Blitzbrigade - extend my small collection of BW, Big Trakk and trukks and rise it to aprox 7-9 transports zooming around the table, either shooting tankbustas, or boyz + some characters. Some of the wagonz with cannons of all kind maybe... Few of them is already sitting in my bit box ready to be done.... oldschool classic... but seems to be little bit boring....
3. Small walkers - kans and dreads are useless now, but nice models, great for all kinds of conversions. And there is a new keyword WALKER in the FW rulebook... seems to be promising, that this kind of units are todays zeros, but tomorrows heros. Or not? And one Apocalypse box is under my table untouched...
4. Large walkers - Stompa and 2 Natus with some small kommando / stormboyz support for missions. Pure shooting kustom stompa clear the midfield, one gorkonaut charging furiously forward and second naut either charging also, or shooting with sparkli bitz on the flank. This could be my first low model count ork army and honestly, I like the conversion potential of the Stompa and Nauts. One of them is already halfed converted in my “finish later” shelf...
4. Easy riders - I don' t have almost any bikers yet. And these are also todays zeros, that could be tomorrow heroes. Marines have new bikers. Nob bikers have a rules, but gakky models that could be converted or kitbashed. Large monowheel nob bikers from deffkoptas, starwars-like speeders, or various chopper conversions..... wruuuuum. Could fit to my buggies.
5. 3 garg squigogs made from AT-ATs.... well.... maybe not...
What ' s your bet, what kind of units will rise? What kind of new models could we expecting?Except some useless characters.....
I think we gotta see how Death Guard shakes up the meta. DE too.
Morty looks BONKERS. Ironically, I think Orks can probably handle him okay, but I bet a lot of people are going to be scratching their head trying to deal with him.
DG are pretty much rewritten from the ground up and are looking strong.
Mortarion doesn't have Ghaz rule to limit the amount of damage he can take per phase though, he just reduces it by one like dreads if I'm not wrong, which is big for a 18W character. And meta is already overwhelmed with anti elite/tank weapons spam. It can definitely tank a lot but it's also a 500 points model.
Blackie wrote: Mortarion doesn't have Ghaz rule to limit the amount of damage he can take per phase though, he just reduces it by one like dreads if I'm not wrong, which is big for a 18W character. And meta is already overwhelmed with anti elite/tank weapons spam. It can definitely tank a lot but it's also a 500 points model.
His abilities are nasty though.
18 Eradicators don't kill him in a single turn on average lol. Not once you add in the -1 to hit psychic.
In addition, he can turn off re-rolls in CC, and turn off aura re-rolls that aren't psychic within a certain radius.
Orks thankfully get around some of this stuff thankfully (Like, Skarboyz don't care about a lot of his new abilities), but no, he's probably the most durable thing in the game per point.
His new psychic powers are also really, really good.
Blackie wrote: IMHO the concept of one-shotting a model like that is insane.
If he can actually go down in 2-3 turns he should be ok. For the faction's superhero that costs 500 points we shouldn't expect otherwise.
We, orks, also don't care about aura re-rolls .
someone did the math hammer on mortarion and it was insane, it would take like some 48 shots I believe from 3+ BS to down him on average, and thats not considering he is likely to be -1 to hit from his psychic powers
I think basically the only things that can kind of stop him are marines with stormshields and good melee weapons, IE bladeguard veterans
Blackie wrote: IMHO the concept of one-shotting a model like that is insane.
If he can actually go down in 2-3 turns he should be ok. For the faction's superhero that costs 500 points we shouldn't expect otherwise.
We, orks, also don't care about aura re-rolls .
At 500 points, he's probably S+ tier.
The main issue is how efficient eradicators are compared to many other army's options. He's durable enough to shrug off the best anti tank in the game, and they are the best by a wide margin.
I reckon he won't stay 490 points after the next update.
Rather hilariously, though, Orks probably laugh him off because of stuff like Dragsters and deathskull damage re-rolls, and stuff like Boys just not caring about his new durability bonuses.
Blackie - have you seen Karate Kid? The best defence is more offense! My MA Big Mek is definitely not a defensive unit. It' s a pure offensive unit. The type of offensive unit that prefers not to die before get to CC.
He's hands down worse than a warboss though, and its main ability is definitely a defensive buff. He's great to defend objectives that have already been conquered by someone else. Of course if there isn't a warboss in the list he can play an offensive role, but he can't really compete against melee specialists (SM are easily AP-4 in combat on turn3), even average ones, as he's only got his T4 and no invuln.
Agree on KBBs (amazing!!) and min cheapest squads of kommandos. I haven't tried the big trakk yet, but it sounds fun.
That is right, MA BM is definitely weaker than warboss. But be fair. Pimped up Warboss can slay the knight in one turn. No problem. It' s far beyond “melee specialist”. Warboss is a melee superhero. MABA can slay the Leman Russ in one charge. That is enought to call him attack unit. His best cover is to be in melee.
Defending character is Kaptin Baldruk, sitting behind and firing plasma out.
Big Trakk - well... this is it... compare the sizes of Big Trakk, Battlewagon and containers... Big Trakk is really sneaking...
Beardedragon wrote: *Looks at the amount of stuff you get for 500 points as death guard with morty*
*Looks at what the Gargantuan Squiggoth does at roughly the same amount of points*
*feels sad*
I usually play Goff when i face Death Guard against my friend (knowing he has morty) because i use Ghaz to man-handle him. Both often ends up dying
To be fair, most super heavy options look bad compared to most Primarchs, there's a reason why they aren't seen much on the table barring a few outliers and imperial knights as a faction are currently gutted with how objectives and games go against them currently.
Also, I'd say we're one of the few factions that aren't as bothered by his defensive capabilities given we dont rely on aura rerolls or D2 weapons like some armies do.
Mortarion was pretty bad before though, and the one good(bad?) thing about him is that he has next to zero range capability. If you tarpit him with Thrakka for a turn or two, this will cause massive problems for the DG player. Also note that he lost his MW pulses, so charging him with multiple units is viable now.
Last, but not least, MANz with hit 'em harder can still take a huge chunk out of him, and scarboyz aren't too bad for hitting him either. Just make sure you dog-pile everything on him at once, failing to kill him puts you on the wrong side of his reaping scythe.
Defensewise he gained T8 instead of T7 and the ability to reduce damage by 1. Sure he's definitely tougher now, but he already had 18W, 4++ and 5+++, and no one considered him too hard to kill for the amount of points it costs.
Even our Ghaz shouldn't go down before turn 3, although he won't soak as much firepower as Mort, which now draws all the attention.
Could a viable tactics be ignoring him and focussing to the rest of the army instead? 30 boyz could tarpit him for two turns. A not so wounded Ghaz can tarpit him for 2-3 turns as well.
I have to play against him before judging. He might be OP, but to be honest at the moment I'm more scared about too cheap gravis dudes that can be spammed.
Most of the DG players are now considering dipping heavily into deathshrouds - those are a lot harder to kill for orks than Mortarion. Honestly I'm not sure what to do about them, as I'm already struggling with deathwing terminators.
For reference, death shrouds now are 3W T5 2+/4++, -1 damage, have a S3 pistol flamer and have 8 S5 AP-1 attacks each.
They sound like a perfect target for our Smasha Gunz. A battery of 6 is 240 points, and should reliably delete a significant number of them. Those nurgle gravis equivalents aren't cheap, and being anti horde oriented means that they won't be spammed. Meta is still about tailoring SM.
But they can definitely be nasty against orks. I too had hard times so far against those kind of targets, although due to covid I couldn't play since before Christmas and I won't be able to play for at least another month or two.
Let's math that: 6 shoot 12 shots on average, hit 6 plus .6666 from dakka³. Chance to wound T5 is 83.33%, so 6.6666x.8333 = 5.5555 wounds After 4++, 2.7777 unsaved wounds remain They are dealing d6-1 damage, which averages to (1+1+2+3+4+5)/6 = 2.6666 damage 2.7777 unsaved wounds x 2.6666 damage = 7.407 wounds
Or, in less mathy terms, three unsaved wounds with a 12.5% chance to kill 3.
Blackie wrote: IMHO the concept of one-shotting a model like that is insane.
If he can actually go down in 2-3 turns he should be ok. For the faction's superhero that costs 500 points we shouldn't expect otherwise.
We, orks, also don't care about aura re-rolls .
someone did the math hammer on mortarion and it was insane, it would take like some 48 shots I believe from 3+ BS to down him on average, and thats not considering he is likely to be -1 to hit from his psychic powers
I think basically the only things that can kind of stop him are marines with stormshields and good melee weapons, IE bladeguard veterans
I dont think Blade Guard will be that good against him, they are only str5 and their damage 2 becomes damage 1. He will often be -1 to hit and then he has a 4++ 5+++ and those Marines wont be getting rerolls against him. The best thing in the game to take him down are probably Kastelans with triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters. Admech have multiple ways of getting +1 to hit to offset the -1 and probably still be +1 against him, pair it with Wrath of Mars and Morty will either be maimed or killed out right. Other armies I think will struggle to take him down, especially like Guard, Tyranids and Eldar.
The Nightbringer is another good threat to Morty and just Warriors in general, but I dont think The NB can solo Morty at all. As Orks I guess its Skarboyz, they have the str and volume of attacks just no AP whats so ever, but then Morty will obliterate blocks of Boyz each combat phase. Ghaz would put up a good fight but again I dont think he would last a couple turns of Smites, Command Phase Mortals and Combat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Most of the DG players are now considering dipping heavily into deathshrouds - those are a lot harder to kill for orks than Mortarion. Honestly I'm not sure what to do about them, as I'm already struggling with deathwing terminators.
For reference, death shrouds now are 3W T5 2+/4++, -1 damage, have a S3 pistol flamer and have 8 S5 AP-1 attacks each.
I think Ghaz or Meganobz are the best vs Deathshroud personally. Ghaz will outright kill a Deathshroud with each unsaved Invun unless they get lucky with the Plague Surgeons 6+++ whilst being relatively safe in return, the -1 toughness doesnt really effect him against the scythes. Meganobz withe the usual Dual Killsaws and Hit 'em Harder should have the volume of attacks to cut through them, and with them being str 10 they dont care about toughness 5. Every 2 unsaved wounds is a dead Deathshroud, you just have to ensure you hit first which can be tricky with the Foul Blightspawn with the relic stank vats.
Let's math that:
6 shoot 12 shots on average, hit 6 plus .6666 from dakka³.
Chance to wound T5 is 83.33%, so 6.6666x.8333 = 5.5555 wounds
After 4++, 2.7777 unsaved wounds remain
They are dealing d6-1 damage, which averages to (1+1+2+3+4+5)/6 = 2.6666 damage
2.7777 unsaved wounds x 2.6666 damage = 7.407 wounds
Or, in less mathy terms, three unsaved wounds with a 12.5% chance to kill 3.
I guess that's ok.
Edit: Math wrong, recalculating...
Edit2: fixed math
It doesn't sound that bad, it's 2-3 dead models that only have 5'' M, won't likely be more than 6 in the list and can just assault one single mek gun due to the huge footprint that artillery has. Smasha gun is also an extremely cheap weapon you should want regardless of the opponent as it'd get appropriate targets against anyone, litterally. Those termies have 4++ and 5+++ but gravis dudes don't, just the 4++ at most. If they don't have the invuln it's 5-6 dead gravis models, which is nice.
Why only 0.6666 from dakkadakkadakka? Shouldn't it be a full extra hit? 12 shots, two additional wounds and one hit with BS4+.
deffrekka wrote: I think Ghaz or Meganobz are the best vs Deathshroud personally. Ghaz will outright kill a Deathshroud with each unsaved Invun unless they get lucky with the Plague Surgeons 6+++ whilst being relatively safe in return, the -1 toughness doesnt really effect him against the scythes. Meganobz withe the usual Dual Killsaws and Hit 'em Harder should have the volume of attacks to cut through them, and with them being str 10 they dont care about toughness 5. Every 2 unsaved wounds is a dead Deathshroud, you just have to ensure you hit first which can be tricky with the Foul Blightspawn with the relic stank vats.
I doubt that deathshrouds will see a lot of character support as the unit is 250 already, so neither surgeons nor blightspawns should be an issue. But many got points on the ork tactics, MANz and Thrakka are decent answers.
Jidmah wrote: Mortarion was pretty bad before though, and the one good(bad?) thing about him is that he has next to zero range capability. If you tarpit him with Thrakka for a turn or two, this will cause massive problems for the DG player. Also note that he lost his MW pulses, so charging him with multiple units is viable now.
Last, but not least, MANz with hit 'em harder can still take a huge chunk out of him, and scarboyz aren't too bad for hitting him either. Just make sure you dog-pile everything on him at once, failing to kill him puts you on the wrong side of his reaping scythe.
I think he's a legit boogeyman, but Orks probably don't struggle too hard with him.
Goff Tide probably has the tools with massed STR 5 attacks.
Deathskull style lists with re-roll damage can probably bust through his damage reduction nonsense.
I honesty think he'll get a points hike. The thing is Morty should never, ever be tarpitted unless the DG players wants him to. You have ways of making enemies fight last, he actually shreds most things that touch him in CC, and he also flies. You can get him into position if you want to.
That new psychic power is horribly mean, too. Lower their Toughness, than pitch upwards of 7 mortal wounds in their face.
Blackie wrote: It doesn't sound that bad, it's 2-3 dead models that only have 5'' M, won't likely be more than 6 in the list and can just assault one single mek gun due to the huge footprint that artillery has. Smasha gun is also an extremely cheap weapon you should want regardless of the opponent as it'd get appropriate targets against anyone, litterally. Those termies have 4++ and 5+++ but gravis dudes don't, just the 4++ at most. If they don't have the invuln it's 5-6 dead gravis models, which is nice.
People are already drafting up lists with 3x5 in them. They also lost the 5+++ but are -1 to damage now.
The main danger from them is that they just charge three different objectives and murder anything trying to contest it. Meanwhile Mortarion is trying to take a swing at the best defended objective. When DG run away with primary points, there is little orks can do to catch up.
Why only 0.6666 from dakkadakkadakka? Shouldn't it be a full extra hit? 12 shots, two additional wounds and one hit with BS4+.
You are right, of course. It shouldn't make much of a difference in the end though, the essence is that you will most likely kill 2 deathshrouds with a small chance to kill 3 and an even smaller chance to kill just one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: That new psychic power is horribly mean, too. Lower their Toughness, than pitch upwards of 7 mortal wounds in their face.
Curse of the Leper has been around since the index. The only new one is the +6" contagion one, the random debuff thing got changed to -1S with a possible -1A as well, and Plague Wind can now be super-charged. In exchange Putrifying Blades, the best power from the old codex, got axed.
Curse of the Leper has been around since the index. The only new one is the +6" contagion one, the random debuff thing got changed to -1S with a possible -1A as well, and Plague Wind can now be super-charged. In exchange Putrifying Blades, the best power from the old codex, got axed.
Fair enough. -1 Toughess Contagion is new, though, which makes it distinctly better.
I've noticed people are mentioning a 5+ FNP for Morty, is he not losing that in exchange for the -1 DMG Disgustingly Resinglant gives now? Or does he get both because he's a Primarch and he don't care.
cody.d. wrote: I've noticed people are mentioning a 5+ FNP for Morty, is he not losing that in exchange for the -1 DMG Disgustingly Resinglant gives now? Or does he get both because he's a Primarch and he don't care.
cody.d. wrote: I've noticed people are mentioning a 5+ FNP for Morty, is he not losing that in exchange for the -1 DMG Disgustingly Resinglant gives now? Or does he get both because he's a Primarch and he don't care.
It's a Warlord Trait he has.
And probably the reason he will get a point increase, if he gets one, for instance if he shows up in too many winning lists (DG has possibly better or just as good builds without Morty though) in... Australia ? Where do tournaments even take place these days ? TTS ? The few that do occur I mean
cody.d. wrote: I've noticed people are mentioning a 5+ FNP for Morty, is he not losing that in exchange for the -1 DMG Disgustingly Resinglant gives now? Or does he get both because he's a Primarch and he don't care.
It's a Warlord Trait he has.
Ah fair enough. If you're going to have a 500pt centerpiece may as well buff him to the warp and back.
So what are the units people feel like they're struggling against at the moment? Have you faced off against many marines and harlies? Do you think the new DG codex is going to be a pain or just Morty looming in the horizon.
cody.d. wrote: So what are the units people feel like they're struggling against at the moment? Have you faced off against many marines and harlies? Do you think the new DG codex is going to be a pain or just Morty looming in the horizon.
Dark Angels are a pita for orks, as they spam a lot of super-durable 3W models. I've played quite a few games against harlequins now, and I find them rather easy to defeat. Their strengths seem useless against most ork builds.
Im pretty new to the hobby and mostly bought my models for the fluff.
Now several friend convinced me to go for a 2k points army. so i took everything i already have and build an army. I roughly hit 1200 points and try to think what to buy next to show them some green pain. Hope you could help here.
What i got so far
Ghazghkull
burna bomber or wazboom blastajet (magnetized right out of hell)
big mek with shokk attack gun
2x smasha gun
deff dread (arms not glued yet. my idea was triple klaw+skorcha)
old model pikkup trukk
10 nobz (big choppas, skorcha, rokkits, choppa+slugga remix)
lotta boyz 40 or so
13 gretchin
So i thought about getting a weirdboy also the model is quite boring but just to jump da **** up.
And i'd like to get another ride like scrapjet or something that looks good.
Could you help to close the gaps inside my mind what to buy. Thanks up front.
You already have a great collection of things, but you are lacking an proper army core.
The easiest to build would probably be a goff horde lead by Thrakka. This would mean increasing your boyz count to 90 and get two boxes of MANz to get a unit of 5 and a MA big mek.
cody.d. wrote: I've noticed people are mentioning a 5+ FNP for Morty, is he not losing that in exchange for the -1 DMG Disgustingly Resinglant gives now? Or does he get both because he's a Primarch and he don't care.
It's a Warlord Trait he has.
Ah fair enough. If you're going to have a 500pt centerpiece may as well buff him to the warp and back.
So what are the units people feel like they're struggling against at the moment? Have you faced off against many marines and harlies? Do you think the new DG codex is going to be a pain or just Morty looming in the horizon.
I think Deathguard will defo shake up the meta, im not sure if there will be an influx of DG players that flood the tournament seen though. They are great and durable, messing with the meta's current fixation on damage 2 weapons but they are still quite slow and elite to a degree, they dont also have great shooting and Plaguemarines are great in combat but Blightlords are pretty flat compared to them. Morty will defo dictate how people build lists now but as Orks we arent really that effected by it, what aura's and rerolls do we really have that are to do with damage? Deathskull's with the odd reroll here and there? I think Orks will weather whatever DG can throw at them.
I don't think it's clear cut that Mortarion will be the way to go. There is a ton of awesome stuff in the codex, and bringing Mortarion means not bringing 490 points of other stuff - that's 3-4 daemon engines which all not only got better BS and WS and better weapons, but also a powerful stratagem for each of them.
Even in 9th multiple shooting units will be better than a single melee unit - us orks should know that best.
cody.d. wrote: So what are the units people feel like they're struggling against at the moment? Have you faced off against many marines and harlies? Do you think the new DG codex is going to be a pain or just Morty looming in the horizon.
Dark Angels are a pita for orks, as they spam a lot of super-durable 3W models. I've played quite a few games against harlequins now, and I find them rather easy to defeat. Their strengths seem useless against most ork builds.
Though do you find that a handful of smashagunz are a good tool to have against DA and the free Transhuman they have on a few units? But yeah I figured Harlies wouldn't be a tough matchup for orks. Put a valuable unit up front as bait then counter charge with some ork boyz to drown them in dice huh?
I think Deathguard will defo shake up the meta, im not sure if there will be an influx of DG players that flood the tournament seen though. They are great and durable, messing with the meta's current fixation on damage 2 weapons but they are still quite slow and elite to a degree, they dont also have great shooting and Plaguemarines are great in combat but Blightlords are pretty flat compared to them. Morty will defo dictate how people build lists now but as Orks we arent really that effected by it, what aura's and rerolls do we really have that are to do with damage? Deathskull's with the odd reroll here and there? I think Orks will weather whatever DG can throw at them.
Tough matchups? Blood Angels is my vote.
DG is a surprise. Yeah morty can be scarey but generally speaking most of their units are just tougher, much more expensive versions of regular marines. Meaning you have less boltguns and chainswords aimed at you.
Vineheart01 wrote:Grot Snipers need to happen already.
It makes sense for grots to have sniper rifles anyway, they have better BS and are cowardly gitz.
There was a conversion of the Kommando Nob with a Grot popping out of his backpack with a sniper rifle that won (some level) at a golden daemon years ago. I think the Grot had a beret on as well?
Kommandos are still finecast and I expect plastic (dual) kits to shift more towards an all plastic range. If GW doesn't do this they've missed a great opportunity.
Vineheart01 wrote:Grot Snipers need to happen already.
It makes sense for grots to have sniper rifles anyway, they have better BS and are cowardly gitz.
There was a conversion of the Kommando Nob with a Grot popping out of his backpack with a sniper rifle that won (some level) at a golden daemon years ago. I think the Grot had a beret on as well?
Kommandos are still finecast and I expect plastic (dual) kits to shift more towards an all plastic range. If GW doesn't do this they've missed a great opportunity.
Yes, I expect either a new all-plastic Kommando set (with an alternate build, either a different flavour of Kommandos or some other unit, perhaps even a brand new unit?). Maybe GW will go cheap and just release a Kommando upgrade sprue compatible with boyz, but they don't seem so keen on upgrade sprues these days.
cody.d. wrote: So what are the units people feel like they're struggling against at the moment? Have you faced off against many marines and harlies? Do you think the new DG codex is going to be a pain or just Morty looming in the horizon.
Dark Angels are a pita for orks, as they spam a lot of super-durable 3W models. I've played quite a few games against harlequins now, and I find them rather easy to defeat. Their strengths seem useless against most ork builds.
Though do you find that a handful of smashagunz are a good tool to have against DA and the free Transhuman they have on a few units?
Ranged stuff tends to get swamped by bikers though, and the talonmaster just shreds mek guns.
My experience is that there simply is no easy way to just kill DA whenever you need, you really need to outplay them. They are lacking in the horde clearing department, so if you grind down a to terminator to two or three, you can just swamp and outscore them due to objective secured. Due to the damn flail, knights are best hit with Thrakka, dreads, MANz and a klaw boss... preferably all at once.
ObSec spam is indeed a valid strategy. I like simple DS Boy blobs under a Painboy umbrella as it´s cheap and a nice body block feature. Reasoning going that typical small arms takes 4 shots and artillery equivalents takes 2.5 shots to drop a Boy is enough of a tarpit. Especially with Tide. I get that most peoples gut feeling is that "I should always kill as much stuff as possible stuff or else I do not work towards winning!", but that´s not true in an objective based game. If the DG player wants to send a handful of Termies towards my blob and chew through it it´s fine as long as my boyz outnumber him . While that´s the case his guys are not collecting VP and they´re neither fighting my real fighting units. If the blob barely scratch the Termies that´s also fine. They´re just a tarpit to secure Primary VP over x time.
Many armies can do similar. E.g. I experiment with TS Tzaangors. 9 points for Ork stats plus a 4++ (with the spell buff on) is also a decent tarpit. Especially when a cocky opponent doesn´t remember the fight twice strat.
Well Smasha Gunz should always be decent against any type of marines actually, since they're really cheap and also force enemy units to overkill them, both in shooting and in combat, as they act as single 40ppm units once deployed and have huge footprint.
Their only downside is the easy 6VPs from Bring It Down, but with mechanized orks I always assume I'm auto conceding 10+ VP for that secondary anyway.
BWs and Bonebreakas are also good if they manage to charge. Last list I played (before Christmas thanks to increased limitations of movement) had a Forktress BW with Warboss and 19 boyz and a Red Rolla Bonebreaka with 10 boyz and the Big Mek in Megarmor, other than my usual Smashas, Tellyported Meganobz, Kommandos, a unit of Trukk Boyz, Tankbustas in another Trukk, a KBB and 2 Scrapjets.
Two 5++ wagons aren't extremely easy to kill and the Bonebreaka with 12A can be an excellent distraction, it definitely scares a lot the elite armies.
Not disagreeing - or agreeing. The designer did say that the game was designed to be titan on titan, but they made some considerations and tests to see if infantry would work.
allplayingcards wrote: Not disagreeing - or agreeing. The designer did say that the game was designed to be titan on titan, but they made some considerations and tests to see if infantry would work.
allplayingcards wrote: Not disagreeing - or agreeing. The designer did say that the game was designed to be titan on titan, but they made some considerations and tests to see if infantry would work.
Has anybody here played against harlequins since 9th dropped ?
I have a game on saturday and I want to bring a triple kill tank list (I just finished them) and my Mega dredd (just finished too), but I would like a way to mitigate the risk of my fellow player coming over and win EZ by turn 2, as he will be sad to have driven all the way for a useless game.
Can they advance and shoot with their fusion pistols ? Or disembark and move up the board and shoot with them ? So many strats and special rules. Can the skyweavers (the things that deal the mortak wounds to vehicules when shooting) single handedly destroy triple kill tanks ? Can't remember I faced clawns in 8th but they just shot at mek gunz back then, which was fine.
Thanks for any heads up you guys can give me, It is not easy getting a game in these days, they gotta be better than turn 2 THE END type of games
BTW, I know the dude as he is on my team, but never actually played against him. He is quite a comp guy, I can't ask him to show me his tricks in advance (I will only do that as a last resort). From what I know, a green tide Goff list would shield me from the wosrt of their OPness, but I really don't want to play that sort of army list.
Edit: I have found the Goohammer article, sorry I will reead it then update this post. Don' t bother answering until then. Sorry for not having done my homework before posting guys
addnid wrote: Can they advance and shoot with their fusion pistols ? Or disembark and move up the board and shoot with them ? So many strats and special rules. Can the skyweavers (the things that deal the mortak wounds to vehicules when shooting) single handedly destroy triple kill tanks ?
Yes?
BTW, I know the dude as he is on my team, but never actually played against him. He is quite a comp guy, I can't ask him to show me his tricks in advance (I will only do that as a last resort). From what I know, a green tide Goff list would shield me from the wosrt of their OPness, but I really don't want to play that sort of army list.
There literally is only one way to build harlequins, the only things that they can change is a small amount of points that can shift between an extra troupe, some bikes or characters.
Yeah, Harlequins will ALWAYS have the same core build, as their codex has 8 datasheets in total, 4 of which are characters.
A few transports with troupes, a significant number of bikers and 2+ characters are the backbone of the army. Everytime, no matter what. Especially now that their only supporting vehicle isn't competitive.
Blackie wrote: Yeah, Harlequins will ALWAYS have the same core build, as their codex has 8 datasheets in total, 4 of which are characters.
A few transports with troupes, a significant number of bikers and 2+ characters are the backbone of the army. Everytime, no matter what. Especially now that their only supporting vehicle isn't competitive.
I'd say there are a decent number of differences if you go Troupe heavy Frozen Stars vs all mounted Soaring Spite vs the Yncarne build.
But in the grand scheme of things, without soup, you're really relying on Skyweavers and Troupes in some fashion, yeah. Amazing what the army can do with like 7 datasheets.
Do you think this is due to a lack of competitive ork players in the tournament? I wasn't there so it's kinda hard to know. I looked through the top 50 lists on Down Under pairings and only found one ork Entry (29th place)
Do you think this is due to a lack of competitive ork players in the tournament? I wasn't there so it's kinda hard to know. I looked through the top 50 lists on Down Under pairings and only found one ork Entry (29th place)
Fast Attack
Stormboyz - 18pwr / 370pts
Boss Nob - 12pts
Power Klaw - 10pts
29 x Stormboyz - 348pts
Heavy Support
Bonebreaka - 10pwr / 190pts
Big Shoota,Grot Rigger, Deff Rolla
1CP - Kustom Job: Forktress
Mek Gunz 3pwr / 40pts
Smasha Gun - 30pts
Mek Gunz 3pwr / 40pts
Smasha Gun - 20pts
It seems kinda scattered and not optimized to me, so maybe that's why it placed so far down. I dunno, what do ya'll think?
Looks like it, the list is definitely not up to par with what we know of the usual top Ork lists and it has some several crucial mistakes (taking the SCB over the Killa Klaw is madness) as well as taking a combined arms approach that doesn't work well with how Orks are structured as an army reflects that the person probably took what he had on hand for his collection rather than being legitimately serious with the faction. That or he's inexperienced.
Do you think this is due to a lack of competitive ork players in the tournament? I wasn't there so it's kinda hard to know. I looked through the top 50 lists on Down Under pairings and only found one ork Entry (29th place)
he even used 3 Snazzwsgons and their kustom job. wonder how they performed for him and how they were used, either suicide with their 4+ explode or long range antihorde / objective campers with the -1 to hit?
If I had to guess the snazzwagons most likely served as a distraction carnifex. Not exactly tough or killy but if rammed down the middle with the scrapjets they'd likely be annoying at the very least. And somewhat tough with the -1 to hit and the occasional use of the grot bumper stratagem.
Do you think this is due to a lack of competitive ork players in the tournament? I wasn't there so it's kinda hard to know. I looked through the top 50 lists on Down Under pairings and only found one ork Entry (29th place)
he even used 3 Snazzwsgons and their kustom job. wonder how they performed for him and how they were used, either suicide with their 4+ explode or long range antihorde / objective campers with the -1 to hit?
Hm, not sure how I missed that! Anyways it is interesting. I've always seen the Snazzwagons as worse than KBB's in just about every regard and never thought much about their Kustom job. I like the HQ slots, but I'm not sure what I think about the min stormboyz squads or the smash gunz. I'd have taken min squads of FW nobz on bikes.
I'd be fun to pick their brain. I'm still not able to play much so I like to read/watch orks play where I can.
I'd say the MSU storm boyz and Kommandos should likely score him scramblers and linebreaker/engage. He could possibly use them as screen vs turn 1 charges.
Mek gunz for home objektive?
The KFF mek has no ride or rather the bonebreaka has an invuln of its own with forktress, so i think he may be using him like I do, for force-field projekta in turn 1. I often find his 9" bubble too small for buggies to be wholly within in the later turns.
Last game I used 4 buggies, 1 dread, 3 independent kanz, 1 trukk, 1 battlewagon and a bommer alongside MSU scoring units and it kind of worked to create traffic jams on midfield objectives to stop my opponent from scoring them. Mind you it was more of a fun game and we had loads of terrain and not too much had the breachable trait...
The Big Mek with KFF was certainly deployed to give 5++ to the Smasha Gunz, and eventually a few vehicles in turn 1. He's the cheapest ork HQ, and he probably wanted to spare points for other units.
Bonebreaka was probably a distraction unit or maybe reserved with Tellyporta.
Well, from my past few games, I can see the merit of just bringing a cheap buggy or two to just sit on objectives and do nothing else if you go all in on buggies.
Full three and the custom job though when you have no KBB? Nah.
Shashas are for screening. One or two sitting on objective and the rest around to screen against DS and looking for right angle to fire. In fact, SMGs have very impressive screening ability. I worked on this list last year and playied couple of games with it. On the end, I skipped them to KBBs. I was frustrated by the immpobility of SMGs...
And BTW they don' t need a KFF. If 9th ed table is used, they are low tier target.
Tomsug wrote: Shashas are for screening. On or two sitting on objective and the rest around to screen against DS and looking for right angle to fire. I worked on this list last year and playied couple of games with it. On the end, I skipped them to KBBs. I was frustrated by the immpobility of SMGs...
And BTW they don' t need a KFF. If 9th ed table is used, they are low tier target.
I agree, they don't. But the KFF guy is the cheapest dude in the roster and in a list like that it has no other purpose that shield the Mek Gunz, after turn 1. Maybe he didn't have other options to bring, like an extra couple of Mek Gunz and opted for a 2nd unnecesary HQ. The upgrades on the Bonebreaka kinda confirm that. He had all the slots unavailable so only option was to add a 2nd HQ but all the mobile or shooty HQs are 115-125 points. Badrukk is cheaper and could definitely fit the list but maybe he doesn't have it.
In a Buggy based list Mek Gunz are definitely deployed in the back, not as a screen as Buggies have a large footprint, need to get close to the opponent and the 3''M from the artillery might be an issue, they just won't get out of the Buggies way. Buggies don't need screeners either. Lack of targets is also not an issue because with that many Buggies enemy units can't hide from everything and Smashas are cheap enough to be fine even if they just sit where they are and do nothing.
Jidmah wrote: Yeah, the only KFF I tend to bring in 9th is the morkanaut, and that is mostly to protect itself.
I like putting a cheap KFF guy along with a Warboss and 18 boyz in a BW. I save the CP for Forktress while boyz and anything else in range have some extra protection against enemy firepower once the transport is gone. It's also a way to invest just a handful of points in the required HQs (143 points in total) and save budget for the toys.
Blackie - well, as I said, I 've playied with this list during last year about 10-15 games.
1. If you have smashas, the right way is to spread them around to
- find the crossfiring angles. Otherwise, enemy move a little and your Smg has nothing valuable to shoot at.
- screen againts DS infantry trying to do the secondaries.
- this mean, you can' t hide them under 9” bubble of KFF 2. In case you have 9th ed table and your opponent is not a nut (or plays bunch of knights no able to hide or something like this), SMG suffers by lack of targets. 50% of the SMGs shooting at 5guardsman or no at all was a standard.
3. My final conclusion is, there is better way how to spent the points than the SMGs in buggy list.
My first versions of this list had a Bonebreaker and cheap KFF Big Mek also. But cheap is not so cheap if sitting useless behind. So I downgrade Bonebreaker to BW, spare 40p and buy MA BigMek instead, boosted it and send him to fight. Works much better.
Jidmah wrote: This. In my last game, I had a single MAN standing when the game ended, while the DA hat over 1000 points left. I won by a 27 VP lead
Respect! That´s 9th strategy winning over someone playing 8th by the sound of it.
Nah, he is a really good player and while he's not running all the primaris cheese. I essentially suicided half my army to get VP when some dice luck took away my ability to hand terminators.
Tomsug wrote: Blackie - well, as I said, I 've playied with this list during last year about 10-15 games.
1. If you have smashas, the right way is to spread them around to
- find the crossfiring angles. Otherwise, enemy move a little and your Smg has nothing valuable to shoot at.
- screen againts DS infantry trying to do the secondaries.
- this mean, you can' t hide them under 9” bubble of KFF 2. In case you have 9th ed table and your opponent is not a nut (or plays bunch of knights no able to hide or something like this), SMG suffers by lack of targets. 50% of the SMGs shooting at 5guardsman or no at all was a standard.
3. My final conclusion is, there is better way how to spent the points than the SMGs in buggy list.
My first versions of this list had a Bonebreaker and cheap KFF Big Mek also. But cheap is not so cheap if sitting useless behind. So I downgrade Bonebreaker to BW, spare 40p and buy MA BigMek instead, boosted it and send him to fight. Works much better.
Yeah I basically agree with you, but mind that in a buggy based list you aren't screening the buggies with mek gunz, you're blocking their way!! Buggies don't fly and have a massive footprint. They're also cheap enough to don't really care about deepstrikers, especially if there are 12 of them.
I also prefer BWs to Bonebreakas in geneal but if you just want an empty wagon, like the guy most certainly did as he didn't bring anything that needed a ride, the latter could be a better option. BW + Megarmored Mek is 30-40 pts more expensive than Bonebreaka + KFF big mek and the Megarmored Mek also need an escort, which is another investment of at least 90 points (10 boyz and a weapon for the nob).
In my experience Smasha Gunz that don't have juicy targets aren't wasted: they're cheaper, more killy and more resilient than MSU kommandos, koptas (except for BS ones which are useless though) or stormboyz to sit on home objectives or contribute to Engage On All Fronts which is a legit secondary for orks (one that I picked up multiple times). If you want infantries because you prefer other secondaries to achieve that's also legit of course.
I typically play on boards with 25-30% terrain, not Necromunda style cities with very little room to place models, that may also contribute. I, and people in my group, hate boards where it's a pain to just move the models as there's too much terrain. 6x 48'' guns that can spread out and don't have any decent target is not the norm even with their crappy 3''M.
Do you think this is due to a lack of competitive ork players in the tournament? I wasn't there so it's kinda hard to know. I looked through the top 50 lists on Down Under pairings and only found one ork Entry (29th place)
Fast Attack
Stormboyz - 18pwr / 370pts
Boss Nob - 12pts
Power Klaw - 10pts
29 x Stormboyz - 348pts
Heavy Support
Bonebreaka - 10pwr / 190pts
Big Shoota,Grot Rigger, Deff Rolla
1CP - Kustom Job: Forktress
Mek Gunz 3pwr / 40pts
Smasha Gun - 30pts
Mek Gunz 3pwr / 40pts
Smasha Gun - 20pts
It seems kinda scattered and not optimized to me, so maybe that's why it placed so far down. I dunno, what do ya'll think?
What is with people's obession of taking Powerklaws on Boss Nobs when Killsaws are also available and the same pts.... Is it purely this is what ive got modelled on my Nobs kinda thing? Or are they future proofing their armies if and when our Killsaws and Powerklaws get the Powerfist and Chainfist changes when our Codex drops? It always seems odd to me that people still take Powerklaws in a tournament, the extra AP and the consistent damage could actually mean something in these matches.
What is with people's obession of taking Powerklaws on Boss Nobs when Killsaws are also available and the same pts.... Is it purely this is what ive got modelled on my Nobs kinda thing? Or are they future proofing their armies if and when our Killsaws and Powerklaws get the Powerfist and Chainfist changes when our Codex drops? It always seems odd to me that people still take Powerklaws in a tournament, the extra AP and the consistent damage could actually mean something in these matches.
Mostly the WYSIWYG thing. Before 9th no one played killsaws on nobz. I have 30+ nobz and only of them is actually equipped with a killsaw. All the other killsaw bitz that I had I put into some conversions. So I play with 1 killsaw and 0-2 power klaws (depending on the number of boyz squads) because that's what I have, and I'm not willing to add more nobz or break already finished models. I guess Aussie dudes are doing the same .
Competitively speaking killsaws are flat out superior than power klaws, even with the Deathskulls re-rolls.
One of the lists in the goonhammer article is harlquins and 10 point druka bikes (which are obviously a mistake form the FAQ), I really dont know what to think about a tournament authorising 10 point drukari bike spam.
It is the Dave Horne – Aeldari – 2nd Place army list. I guess it only made it second and not fist, so there is that...
Blackie - yeah, traffic jam is a serious issue with buggy list and SMGs doesn' t help. And doesn' t move, so when the small fights in late turns take place on a “wrong” place, part of the SMGs is sitting somewhere totaly useless. That is one of the reasons why I put them in the storage and skip them now in the list.
I combine the buggies with Wazboom and BuBommer and pimp up the KBBs with squig tyres. So my deploy is full, but SJDs jump out via tellyport, Jets fly by (or die if go second...), KBBs have 14” to move far away and my 2 transports - Big Trakk and BW move also pretty fast. So what stay in back is pack od Scrapjets, that are slow and I want to keep them back first 2 turns anyway, to be the decisive striking force in the later part of the game. Works fine.
MA Big Mek + escort - yeah, that is very well working part of my list. 2 transports with their own 5++, 2 beefy characters, each of them with 10 boyz. Transports delivere them in to the midfield and boyz and characters can make a great mess with all their melee abilities and obsec.
And I' m pretty sure, opponent do not kill the transport in T1. Because he' s scared like a hell from the Jets. So transport is always sucess. They die usually T2 (opponent find them more important than sniping buggies) or on the end (opponent priorities the buggies and transports annoy him to T4).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: This. In my last game, I had a single MAN standing when the game ended, while the DA hat over 1000 points left. I won by a 27 VP lead
Well played. MANz were my first models and I love them since. And I believe, they are very effective and can deal a real hell of damage and last long. They have only 2 disadventages - do not fit in the buggy list well and I' ve painted 10 of them in my old red color scheme, that do not fit to my current army style
I thought the same thing about the min squads of Stormboyz and Kommandos, but the problem ended up being that when up against even a moderate player they just get shot off the table before they can perform their duties (unless I can get lucky and hide them somewhere they can't see).
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: I thought the same thing about the min squads of Stormboyz and Kommandos, but the problem ended up being that when up against even a moderate player they just get shot off the table before they can perform their duties (unless I can get lucky and hide them somewhere they can't see).
I think this is a matter of how the tables look like. Many people are still putting all the obscuring terrain everywhere (usually nothing but ruins), essentially neutering shooting to a point where melee is the only way to really kill stuf and nothing but infantry can get anywhere. For those game these little units are just free VP.
If you build more balanced tables, like the guys from tabletop titans are suggesting (and GW kind of explains in the BRB), you are better off with something like a kannon/gunwagon, walker, mek gun or a buggy sitting on objectives and trukkboyz or MANz for performing actions, as they are likely to get some sort of protection, but will not be immune to shooting and need to be able to take a hit or two.
On terrain-light tables or tables with lots of non-functional terrain, like many of the popular TTS maps or many diorama-like setups these small units become a total liability, as they will just be gunned down with much effort. Orks will have a hard time in general on these tables, unless the opponent is just as ill prepared for a shooting gallery as you are.
Personally, I would always suggest trying to get a balanced terrain setup with a range of obscuring, barricades, dense and pure LOS blockers, because it's less prone to skew and more fun to play, but it's obvious that you can't always influence how the terrain is set up.
Jidmah wrote: Same for me. It's also pretty likely that any killsaw nobz you build now will be worse/useless once the codex hits.
For me I have a vast collection of Nobz from over the years so much so that I have a Nob for all load outs (I have around 50 Nobz and 30 Meganobz which were for Bullyboyz back in the day) and as Ive gone back selling my older ones and making new ones to replace them Ive gone to magnetising my weapons because I know for sure Killsaws will be like Chainfists and other weapons will become the new hotness in the future.
Jidmah wrote: Same for me. It's also pretty likely that any killsaw nobz you build now will be worse/useless once the codex hits.
For me I have a vast collection of Nobz from over the years so much so that I have a Nob for all load outs (I have around 50 Nobz and 30 Meganobz which were for Bullyboyz back in the day) and as Ive gone back selling my older ones and making new ones to replace them Ive gone to magnetising my weapons because I know for sure Killsaws will be like Chainfists and other weapons will become the new hotness in the future.
Yup, it's pendulum that keeps swinging every edition/codex change. Just like right now multi-meltas are the new hotness when just months ago they weren't even looked at as a real anti-tank weapon. It's like what happened with Mek Gunz. Back in 7th, you'd really only take KMK's, now it's smasha gunz.
Jidmah wrote: Same for me. It's also pretty likely that any killsaw nobz you build now will be worse/useless once the codex hits.
For me I have a vast collection of Nobz from over the years so much so that I have a Nob for all load outs (I have around 50 Nobz and 30 Meganobz which were for Bullyboyz back in the day) and as Ive gone back selling my older ones and making new ones to replace them Ive gone to magnetising my weapons because I know for sure Killsaws will be like Chainfists and other weapons will become the new hotness in the future.
When I built most of my nobz, killsaws we just cybork body parts and best used to convert painboyz
To be fair isn’t there only 1 killsaw in the entire nob kit and nothing in the boyz kit. (There is also a killsaw in the Mek clam pack) It isn’t like killsaw bits were plentiful.
I got 12 nobs.. 6 Pks and 6 big choppas (plus the new character that’s just slugga and choppa)
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Yeah, the few games I've been able to play at my club for 9th had a lot of hills but very little that was classified as obscuring.
lots of people play planet bowling ball and/or tables with across the table line of sight everywhere. either they don't realize they are neutering any assault army or they know and are trying to have a significant advantage. A local player in 8th playing tau would refuse to play a game where there was anything that could block los to more than a squad of 5. have not played him in 9th and stopped playing him in 8th no point in just setting up models to have them all removed before they can do anything. to be fair he only showed up occasionally and most people would only play him once or twice then just shrug off like naw, i am here for a good game not to be target fodder. he did have a guard player who would often play him.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Yeah, the few games I've been able to play at my club for 9th had a lot of hills but very little that was classified as obscuring.
lots of people play planet bowling ball and/or tables with across the table line of sight everywhere. either they don't realize they are neutering any assault army or they know and are trying to have a significant advantage. A local player in 8th playing tau would refuse to play a game where there was anything that could block los to more than a squad of 5. have not played him in 9th and stopped playing him in 8th no point in just setting up models to have them all removed before they can do anything. to be fair he only showed up occasionally and most people would only play him once or twice then just shrug off like naw, i am here for a good game not to be target fodder. he did have a guard player who would often play him.
The thing to watch out for in 9th is that you can actually have the opposite effect as well. If you put four rows of ruins diagonally across the table, you'd have an awesome 8th edition table, but you completely neuter shooting in 9th.
Just running through the math and a buffed evil sunz gun platform kustom stompa (shadows in the smoke with most dakka) can kill Morty in one turn of shooting with change. Lifta stompa alone will do 9ish wounds.
What do you all think of this list? I haven't seen a list like that in a bit, which is quite a refreshing break from the Ghazz/Boyz or Buggy spam we've been seeing lately.
Tons of hitting power with the Manz...3x SAG seems a little odd to me, but I remember reading somewhere that even with their points increase they were still a force to be reckoned with. I just haven't played them myself so I don't have any experience in that realm.
What do you all think of this list? I haven't seen a list like that in a bit, which is quite a refreshing break from the Ghazz/Boyz or Buggy spam we've been seeing lately.
Tons of hitting power with the Manz...3x SAG seems a little odd to me, but I remember reading somewhere that even with their points increase they were still a force to be reckoned with. I just haven't played them myself so I don't have any experience in that realm.
Yeah, that is Liam Hacket and his list. Discussed there couple pages ago. Tabletop Titans played this list like 2 weeks ago? The video is available, so check it.
This list is a lot about right positioning of MANz and putting SAGs somewhere on the tower and play a gamble with their rolls. Howevere, 3x SAGs is so much rolls for number of shoots and S that you can count with some average during 5 turns....
Jidmah wrote: Same for me. It's also pretty likely that any killsaw nobz you build now will be worse/useless once the codex hits.
For me I have a vast collection of Nobz from over the years so much so that I have a Nob for all load outs (I have around 50 Nobz and 30 Meganobz which were for Bullyboyz back in the day) and as Ive gone back selling my older ones and making new ones to replace them Ive gone to magnetising my weapons because I know for sure Killsaws will be like Chainfists and other weapons will become the new hotness in the future.
When I built most of my nobz, killsaws we just cybork body parts and best used to convert painboyz
How I built mine was I had a lot of spare Killsaw arms from all the Meganobz I bought when they got made into plastic, I got the Nob arms from Assault on Black Reach which are noticably beefier than the newer Nob kit and I sawed them just before the elbow and attached the spare Killsaws. I never really liked the actually Killsaw you get in the Nob kits, it just looks off and its in a bad position that doesnt really suit the other arms.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CaptainO wrote: Just running through the math and a buffed evil sunz gun platform kustom stompa (shadows in the smoke with most dakka) can kill Morty in one turn of shooting with change. Lifta stompa alone will do 9ish wounds.
Hmm doesnt seem likely and the Stompa is a fair chunk of change more than Morty. Are we talking double Lifta Droppas?
Jidmah wrote: That seems unlikely - care to show your math?
Maybe I can supply:
2 Stompa Lifta droppa get 16 shot that on average deal 5-1=4 wound. Since Morty has a 4++ and 5+++ and chance to wound is just short of 0.74 (chance to roll higher than 8 on 3d6 is 160/216) this will give you 0.9876 unsaved wounds per hit.
X shots with full rerolls (visions) and more dakka gets you
A = (X+(X-X*1/3))*1/3 #reroll all
all hits A qualify for more dakka thanks to BS 5 so modifiers do not apply and all missed dakka may be rerolled
B = (A+ (A-A*1/3))*1/3
Y = A+B = 0.8642 * X
Visions plus more dakka is .86 times number of shots ALWAYS
unsaved damage from stompa lifta droppa will hence be
16*0.8642*0.9876= 13.65
add his belly gun and gaze and you will one shot Morty on average.
Edit: I calculated the wound on 3d6 to quickly and had 170/216 originally rather than 160/216. math corrected now
Edit II: the actual odds to one shot him aren't really good by the way as the kustom stompa does it just about on average. Its also extremely swingy as you heavily rely on 5s and 6s on your original rolls. More dakka is win more
High damage shots seem to be the one thing that actually brings down Mortarion reliably, and the stompa has plenty of that.
The general consensus of those testing him right now seems to be that you need to keep him busy but not kill him, because even when people are trying their best to kill Mortarion, he has a decent chance to still be alive by the end of the game.
What do you all think of this list? I haven't seen a list like that in a bit, which is quite a refreshing break from the Ghazz/Boyz or Buggy spam we've been seeing lately.
Tons of hitting power with the Manz...3x SAG seems a little odd to me, but I remember reading somewhere that even with their points increase they were still a force to be reckoned with. I just haven't played them myself so I don't have any experience in that realm.
Yeah, that is Liam Hacket and his list. Discussed there couple pages ago. Tabletop Titans played this list like 2 weeks ago? The video is available, so check it.
This list is a lot about right positioning of MANz and putting SAGs somewhere on the tower and play a gamble with their rolls. Howevere, 3x SAGs is so much rolls for number of shoots and S that you can count with some average during 5 turns....
I have been playing SAG / SSAG for the hole of 9th and being laughed at, but they still do the same as before and killed their share of stuff. Basicly a wild card with the chance to spike just with a bit more point investment and the need for better protection. My main problem was actually CP usage, especially combined with boys.
Have occasionally run 1 SSAG in buggy lists and dumped in 4 CP first turn hoping for some serious damage and after that don`t really caring about what happens to it as it gets a lot worse without shooting twice & more dakka. Funny enough thats why it gets ignored sometimes and can still kill a few primaris later.
Also it might be a good option to take on Morti, with DS rerolls and chances for mortal wounds.
The average damage is actually not that great but the chance to spike could be worth it.
It`s just a matter of point investment. Plus to be fair, haven`t played tournaments in 9th just matched play where SSAG is still legal.
Had most success in tide lists where they provided solid anti tank while the boys and gretchin flood the table and keep the opponent busy.
I've just stopped using vigilus when 9th hit. It doesn't feel right to keep using something that was so clearly flagged as "not considered for balance", plus I don't want to rely on something that definitely is going away when the codex is released.
That said, I miss the utility of the kult of speed detachment more than I do miss the power of the dreadmob. Snazztrike and the stratagems a dearly missed.
Yeah i had some pretty good charges with advancing Nobbikers with that one.
I hope the bring that stuff into our future codex.
At least they wrote some of the vigilus and PA stuff in the codicies so far, so there is a chance we`ll get it "back".
In my mind it´s fair that way as stuff like the viglius SM upgrades are build in in their codex now without need to upgrade it to a specialist detachment and pay initial CP for it.
its a little sad to see the Gargantuan squiggoth. I mean if you want to use it to its fullest, you have to put ranged guys in it.
You cant use it to transport your otherwise most valuable close combat infantry (if thats what you wanted to), the Mega Nobz. Im not sure why they excluded Mega armored units in the squiggoths (both small and gargant variant), one would think there should be amble space up there on the howdah.
Also isnt the Supa kannon crewed by grots? at least grots comes with the supa kannon item, so im not sure why the Squiggoth supa kannon would hit on 5s and not 4s, given the kannon wagon hits on 4s (and the fluff text states that its because its crewed by grots). Seeing all those options from what it had before the forge world update, now being lost, makes me sad. Alas it was given the same treatment as the Big trakk.Its really an expensive and glorified transport, so if i dont have anything to really transport (since i cant put MANZ in it) im not sure how i SHOULD use it. sadly i have no ranged infantry units except for Tankbustas that i will receive when ever GW decides to send them to me. I have neither flash gitz nor Lootas.
Is there a way to use a Gargantuan Squiggoth non competitively without tankbustas, flash gitz or Lootas inside of it?
While i would pay 3 CP to use it and get no clan culture as its an auxillary unit, id still want to try it out. I got the unit recently, not because i thought it'd be great for combat, but because the model is awesome.
Ahh and the second Ork list in the NLVO. Classic Green Tide.
Points of interest for me: The fact that the weirdboy took Bull Charge instead of Warpath. I haven't used that power in-game as I usually take warpath, does anyone have experience with it?
Points of interest for me: The fact that the weirdboy took Bull Charge instead of Warpath. I haven't used that power in-game as I usually take warpath, does anyone have experience with it?
Points of interest for me: The fact that the weirdboy took Bull Charge instead of Warpath. I haven't used that power in-game as I usually take warpath, does anyone have experience with it?
In the Art of War podcast he talks a bit about his choices. Basically he wants an army that is as reliable as possible, so the Bull Charge power ensures when he needs a 7 inch or less charge he gets it.
I've started to leave da jump at home in infantry lists as well. It's nowhere near the powerhouse it used to be with smaller tables and terrain impacting charge ranges.
Points of interest for me: The fact that the weirdboy took Bull Charge instead of Warpath. I haven't used that power in-game as I usually take warpath, does anyone have experience with it?
In the Art of War podcast he talks a bit about his choices. Basically he wants an army that is as reliable as possible, so the Bull Charge power ensures when he needs a 7 inch or less charge he gets it.
His argument against Warpath makes sense, too.
You already have 5 attacks per boy (3+1 (>20 boys) +1 (ghaz)). 6 attacks is just winning harder.
There's no point in overkilling an enemy. If you fail that 7" charge, though, that could lose you the game instantly.
Keep in mind too -- It's actually an 8" (EXACTLY) charge. 7.999". Pick a unit -- that unit will always make a charge as long as they are 8" away from the enemy, regardless of tanglefoot, terrain, any modifiers.
Incredibly invaluable to remove the variance of a making a charge.
It's just, sadly, GOFF locked, otherwise I guarantee you you'd see it in loads of other places.
tulun wrote: Keep in mind too -- It's actually an 8" (EXACTLY) charge. 7.999". Pick a unit -- that unit will always make a charge as long as they are 8" away from the enemy, regardless of tanglefoot, terrain, any modifiers.
Not quite. Terrain that is not breachable, like most barricades, still reduce your movement because you need to move over them.
With a list like that, is the 3cp 18’ range kff strat used ? To avoid having defenseless boy mobs and other protected, and the opponent just has to blast the unprotected ones first ? I guess it will depend on deployment zones (quarter table will be a very different game than dawn of war deployment)
cody.d. wrote: If he ever wants warparth I suppose he can always pay the CP for Warphead.
He already did it, his psyker had Da Jump and Bull Charge. To get Warpath he needed an additional Weirdboy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: I've started to leave da jump at home in infantry lists as well. It's nowhere near the powerhouse it used to be with smaller tables and terrain impacting charge ranges.
Me too, it's a pain to teleport 30 boyz in a juicy spot in turn 1. After that Da Jump isn't that useful. I've swtiched to Warpath/Maniacal Seizures for Deathskulls or Warpath/Fists of Gork with Goffs. To be honest with Goffs I'd leave the psyker at home.
I didn't take any weirdboy for my game with a pure goff list this saturday, and it was a big mistake.
It probably cost my the game. I was facing harlequins, and I took the warboss on bike instead as my 3rd HQ choice
Turns out without biggest boss (I had Gaz), he dies to a stiff breeze after charging. Even with Da killa klaw, he doesn't do much against stuff with a 4++ (even less when target is buffed to 3++).
A weirdboy is cheaper, doesn't need a relic, and da jump or fists of gork can be good utility stuff (fists on gaz) (I don't want to take bull charge if I don't have more than 90 boyz.
Perhaps a 60 point KFF big mek could have been good as a 3rd HQ. My next game with 120 boyz, I will probably try out 60point KFF big mek.
With 120 boyz I'd take Ghaz and 2 KFFs as HQs, one cheap and one in megarmor with the Killa Klaw. With 2 KFFs all the infantries should be under the bubble.
Save the 2CP by using the single detachment, no 4th HQ. Use those 2 CPs to deep strike Meganobz instead, and one additional CP to outflank Tankbustas, if you use them.
Anyway the Weirdboy is of course a legit option, if you like it take it without regrets.
Hmm. I have a tendency of using the warboss on warbike as a heatseeking missile that drives forward, finds the best target he can, preferably targeting several units at once, kills it, dies, then 2CP to fight again to kill some more units as he charged several guys.
And hopefully doing so getting well above his own cost in points. He was probably not designed for that though
I'm fairly sure he was designed to do exactly that, but in my experience he works a lot better if you hide him for a turn or two and them jump out to murder some juicy targets - things that can easily stop a warboss are usually dead or have committed somewhere at that point.
Blackie wrote: With 120 boyz I'd take Ghaz and 2 KFFs as HQs, one cheap and one in megarmor with the Killa Klaw. With 2 KFFs all the infantries should be under the bubble.
Save the 2CP by using the single detachment, no 4th HQ. Use those 2 CPs to deep strike Meganobz instead, and one additional CP to outflank Tankbustas, if you use them.
Anyway the Weirdboy is of course a legit option, if you like it take it without regrets.
Yep I agree, no 4th HQ. Next game I will outflank a mega dredd, because I don't trust TBs to work without dakka dakka, and I don't want to spend 2 CPs on that (TBs don't work against monsters and elite infantry so for me they are not meta enough ATM). I wonder what the probabilities are for a 9 inch mega dredd charge without evil sunz and without the 2 CP strat to roll an additional dice to charge).
The warboss missile is less useful with a mega dredd I guess, because as Jid says, it is usually better to wait unitl turn 2 to send him charging into a juicy target. So both kind of fulfill the same roll.
I will try the "not da biggest boss" missile warboss on bike again though, Just not next game I think.
Was curious with the new Dark Angels Buffs how will we deal with an army who can cut our melee threat in half with our boyz.
In their new update, they can now shoot in melee at our BS with rapid fire and assault weapons, plus they gained a stratagem that only allows models in engagement range to fight.
I personally in my melee lists rely upon a great deal of Ork boyz making contact in melee to do serious damage. By cutting down the number of orks we can get into combat, plus their other melee defensive buffs this essentially neuters horded based melee without some form of surround. There's always more elite melee, which I have plenty of, but why GW thought this was a needed change is beyond me.
i tend to be agressive with my warboss (on bike) but he sticks near my buggies and/or battlewagons. Though it occurs I don't have the FW book does warboss on a bike still have character protection? if not yea he's hanging with the battlewagons behind los
panzerfront14 wrote: Was curious with the new Dark Angels Buffs how will we deal with an army who can cut our melee threat in half with our boyz.
In their new update, they can now shoot in melee at our BS with rapid fire and assault weapons, plus they gained a stratagem that only allows models in engagement range to fight.
I personally in my melee lists rely upon a great deal of Ork boyz making contact in melee to do serious damage. By cutting down the number of orks we can get into combat, plus their other melee defensive buffs this essentially neuters horded based melee without some form of surround. There's always more elite melee, which I have plenty of, but why GW thought this was a needed change is beyond me.
You already have next to no chance to really hurt a well built DA list in combat, the new things only add insult to injury. I'm much more worried about the "take away objective secured" power, as that is the one thing which kept me afloat against them - objsec characters, manz or elite units which suicide into a terminator/biker squad to score 5 VP before they die.
panzerfront14 wrote: Was curious with the new Dark Angels Buffs how will we deal with an army who can cut our melee threat in half with our boyz.
In their new update, they can now shoot in melee at our BS with rapid fire and assault weapons, plus they gained a stratagem that only allows models in engagement range to fight.
I personally in my melee lists rely upon a great deal of Ork boyz making contact in melee to do serious damage. By cutting down the number of orks we can get into combat, plus their other melee defensive buffs this essentially neuters horded based melee without some form of surround. There's always more elite melee, which I have plenty of, but why GW thought this was a needed change is beyond me.
You already have next to no chance to really hurt a well built DA list in combat, the new things only add insult to injury. I'm much more worried about the "take away objective secured" power, as that is the one thing which kept me afloat against them - objsec characters, manz or elite units which suicide into a terminator/biker squad to score 5 VP before they die.
What would you say the best response to this sort of thing, my local meta is either Necrons or Dark Angels as our Admech player is away for some time. I've had crushing victories against Dark Angels through massive shooting output, the standard Da Boomer Wagon and Smasha Gunz, after I scratch built four of them. Plus squads of Mega nobz ripping Intercessors off objectives.
Against large groups of Deathwing, depending on what you have, Smasha Guns seem the best response to them, with some proper screening they can't be charged from deep strike, particularly on the smaller boards.
I've had success with Killa Klaw Bosses, Mega Nobz charges and ork shooting as a whole against the enemy. I normally face Azzy plus a bunch of Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors and a bunch of Auto bolt rifle Intercessors, plus some deathwing back up.
panzerfront14 wrote: Was curious with the new Dark Angels Buffs how will we deal with an army who can cut our melee threat in half with our boyz.
In their new update, they can now shoot in melee at our BS with rapid fire and assault weapons, plus they gained a stratagem that only allows models in engagement range to fight.
I personally in my melee lists rely upon a great deal of Ork boyz making contact in melee to do serious damage. By cutting down the number of orks we can get into combat, plus their other melee defensive buffs this essentially neuters horded based melee without some form of surround. There's always more elite melee, which I have plenty of, but why GW thought this was a needed change is beyond me.
You already have next to no chance to really hurt a well built DA list in combat, the new things only add insult to injury. I'm much more worried about the "take away objective secured" power, as that is the one thing which kept me afloat against them - objsec characters, manz or elite units which suicide into a terminator/biker squad to score 5 VP before they die.
Holy crap, I didn't even see that. 24", no LoS required.
Man alive, Death skulls better keep obsec on all infantry in our next codex.
Andrew Penn 5th in Adelaide Open with following list:
He commented his list on FB - want skip Bonebreaker and take more Scrapjets next time
- plays Engage and While we stand (keep one buggy from each unit alive from each unit - after FAQ you choose UNIT not MODEL with highest point value!)
- deffkoptas do Engage T1
- prefers Cyborg body over Killklaw for better durability
Bonebreaka probably acts as a distraction, but maybe just the Forktress kustom job could have made it perform better.
Cyb body makes sense, his list has a ton of anti tank, Deathskulls re-rolls and doesn't really need a more killy boss. Gunwagon is probably there for the same reason, T8 grants more durability and he doesn't really need better anti tank or even that CP.
While we stand we fight could be very solid with 3 squadrons. I'm thinking about 2x3 buggies and 6 Smasha Gunz which is something I can field, I don't have 9 buggies.
tulun wrote: While we stand, we fight is probably the new way to build for Ork lists.
I think it's easily done in both Goff Tide or Deathskull mech if you are so inclined.
Pretty sure it's an easy 10-15 points.
Prey tell, I am trying to find a way to make it work in goff Tide (I have 120 boyz to squeeze in) but I don't see it. DS buggy is easy, as Blackie said for example (dredd can also work i guess)
tulun wrote: While we stand, we fight is probably the new way to build for Ork lists.
I think it's easily done in both Goff Tide or Deathskull mech if you are so inclined.
Pretty sure it's an easy 10-15 points.
Prey tell, I am trying to find a way to make it work in goff Tide (I have 120 boyz to squeeze in) but I don't see it. DS buggy is easy, as Blackie said for example (dredd can also work i guess)
Two ways.
1) 6 Mek Guns, 5 Smashas, 1 Traktor -- 250 points. Take two of these, plus Ghaz. Your boy squads (30 boys, Nob w/ 1 Kill saw) are *exactly* 250 points, allowing you to choose either the boys or the Mek guns -- guess what you do. So 12 mek guns + 90 boys and Ghaz w/ support is an easy list to build. Not that fun imo, but it's a list.
2) Bring in a Deathskulls patrol, add in Dragsters and/or Mega Trakks to Goff Tide. Again, super easy.
For example, this 1805 points.
90 boys (Nobs w/ 1 Kill saw)
Ghaz
Painboy
Kff Mek
10 Grots
3 Dragsters
6 Mek guns, 5 Smashas, 1 traktor
Goff Patrol (add weirdboy for Bat if you want), Deathskulls Patrol. Put KFF Mek in the patrol.
Your While We stand are: 3 dragters, Ghaz, 6 Mek Guns.
Yeah, I thought of that with the mek gunz, but you can't get 120 boyz with the painboy and the 2*5 kommandos in there.
Ghaz is going to die logically. As for the patrol, no way, this list needs CPs too badly (with 4 units of boyz, that is 4 cps for skarboyz so...).
I think I will just skip WWStand unless I go back to only 3*30 boyz (in which case I will totally do as you described, it will work well).
addnid wrote: Yeah, I thought of that with the mek gunz, but you can't get 120 boyz with the painboy and the 2*5 kommandos in there.
Ghaz is going to die logically. As for the patrol, no way, this list needs CPs too badly (with 4 units of boyz, that is 4 cps for skarboyz so...).
I think I will just skip WWStand unless I go back to only 3*30 boyz (in which case I will totally do as you described, it will work well).
You don’t need the second detachment with mek guns only.
Here’s a list I brewed up quickly after the change. Gets close but no commandos. Still 26 points short too, which is double kill saw in all the boy squads, or you could cut back the MA Mek to a normal one and probably take some other stuff.
Edit: Cut down 1 more boy, convert your MA Big Mek to a KFF Mek (Make Ghaz the warlord then ), and you can take 2 MSU Kommando squads with no nob if you so choose.
Tomsug wrote: Yeah, While we stand seems to be better for heavy vehicle lists...
I actually doubt that... too many games of mine end up with almost no vehicles left alive, and there are easier ways to score 5 VP - worst case just take assassinate of cut of the head and blow up characters with SJD.
Or better, force the beatstick warlord into hiding
Tomsug wrote: Yeah, While we stand seems to be better for heavy vehicle lists...
I actually doubt that... too many games of mine end up with almost no vehicles left alive, and there are easier ways to score 5 VP - worst case just take assassinate of cut of the head and blow up characters with SJD.
Or better, force the beatstick warlord into hiding
Maybe. Change in WWSWF from models to unit makes them definitely something to think about.
Assasinate or more Cut of the head is definitely the option with the Jets. Even 2 of them have pretty nice chance to score it againts some lists. If you take 2 wazbooms and 2 bommers and build the list about it, they can kill the warlord T1 or no later than T2 except the lists with Mortairion/Ghaz type of warlord lists. The effectivy of such list in other aspects is however definitely something to doubt about.... But honestly it' s one of my projects for these year - build the 4th jet - so I' ll definitely try it
Automatically Appended Next Post: But you are definitely right Jidmah, that if we take as an assumption, that orks struggle to survive and need to use secondaries based on something else than to survive to win, than this secondary is wrong.
On other hand, list like posted above is definitely based on the strategy “kill them all, before they kill you”. So the usage and success of this strategy makes sence...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I' ve made a little digging about dilema Da Boomer Gunwagon vs. Kannonwagon.
Damage output in total is very similar and depend a lot on the target.
Gunwagon is more expensive (same number of big shootas = 20p more), has T8 (kannonwagon just T7) and explodes on 4+ which is definitely a big pro
Kannonwagon has longer range and is cheaper. And has lower transport capacity, which is not important imho.
Nothing exciting.
What is however interesting is the question of composition of the damage in the list. I ' ve found, that huge part of my list has damage 3 or higher (scrapjets, dragstas, wazboom) and only KBBs Rivet Kannon has dmg 2. Kannonwagon is 3, Da Boomer is 2.
I need to compose the damage of my weapons to have some balance between 2 and 3 to be effective againts different targets...
Well, if DG are a thing your meta, you should get rid of D2 weapons anyways.
Beyond that, I like da boomer because it instantly turns into a gakton of shots when facing horde and because it's less likely to fail on number of shots rolled. I only pull out a kannonwagon to put Badrukk or tankbustas inside.
Hmm. well i tend to stick to da boomer, as ive gotten better results from that than a kannon wagon.
More dakka on a gunwagon where ive cast visions in the smoke on, always makes my day.
Id say that the kannonwagon is cheaper, but im assuming this will only be till the codex drops and the gunwagons big shoota cost is removed (which im expecting to happen) because the kannonwagon does not pay for them. But of course you do pay 1 CP to bring da boomer, and you can only have one. Maybe if you face an enemy unit that has many 3wound guys rather than 2 then it suddenly makes a lot more sense.
Maybe against a custodies player the kannowagon would work best as their infantry all have 3 wounds. Even as i say that, i still use da boomer against custodies, and thats the army i fight the most against in my local gaming area.
The open topped nature dont do me anything much as the kannowagon has a range of 60, to encourage it to sit at the furthest away corner of the map, where anything sitting inside of it wont aid it with shooting. I tend to shoot at least further away than 24 inches the first few turns, so anything thats not either lootas or flash gitz wouldnt be able to hit from that distance. furthermore, sometimes you gotta reposition, but if you do, your flash gitz and lootas hits with a minus 1, so im not sure what i would throw in to the kannonwagon unless you wanna drive up somewhat close
You can’t make gitz fire 36 if they are inside, so it really is just lootas. And as you said the thing will probably need to move so lootas ain’t great either.
If you go evil sunz these things are good because visions as it was said. Otherwise I think they are both meh units, but that is just me.
Jidmah wrote: That seems unlikely - care to show your math?
Ref: One shotting Morty
So the combo of shadows in the smoke (reroll all misses) and more Dakka (auto hits on 5s and 6s, explode on 5s and 6s) result in a conversion rate of 86.4% "hits" for every shot taken. Also as orks we ignore the fact Morty might have a -1 to hit.
3/9 + (2/3*1/3) = 45/81 of initial shots hitting due to rerolls
(1/3*5/9) + (2/3*5/9*1/3) =25/81 from the explodes together making 70/81 conversion from the initial shots. Thats 86.4%. Bear in mind Bs2+ is only a 83.33% probability.
The kustom lifta averages 8 shots (4d3) results in on average 6.912 hits. If you check up a sample space diagram for 3 d6 thrown concurrently you'll see the lifta will still wound T8 76.39% of the time resulting in 5.28 wounds. Half of which will go through the armour = 2.6 Each wound casuses 3+d3 wounds -1 so approximately 12 wounds, again 33.3% would be saved due to Mortys old FnP so 8 wounds.
The deffkannon will average 10.5 shots (3d6) resulting in 9.072 shots. Wounding Morty on 3s reults in 6 wounds. 3 are saved with Mortys 4++ so 3 wounds at damage d6 -1 which averages 7.5 wounds in total. again morty will save 33% so thats another 5 wounds for morty.
Belly gun will average 9 hits again. Only 4.5 wound, 2.25 go through the invul resulting in a 2.25 wounds again reduced by 33% so thats only another 1.5 wounds for morty.
Supa gatler will again average 9 hits with only 3 wounding, 1.5 piercing the invul reduced by 33% for 1 more wound. If needs be you could fire this a second time (on a 2+) which would be another wound.
3.5 shots on average for the supa rokkits results in 3.024 hits, 1.5 wounds and a 0.75 piercing the invul in turn causing on average 1.875 wounds, which reduced by 33% results in 1.23 more wounds.
9 big shoota attacks result in 7.776 hits, 2.58 wounds, only 0.85 piercing his armour. After FnP again this changes to 0.56.
In total thats on average just over 18 actually successful wounds against Morty at 36" range.
This isn't taking into account the not terrible gaze of mork which while only 3 shots. Averages 2.59 hits,1.7 wounds, 0.855 that get through the invul in turn causing 3.3 extra actual wounds (after -1 D and FnP)
On average we the Orks have the one platform that can one turn (phase) Morty. Personally I'll also be flying my Burna bommer into him T1 too (can someone confirm whether Morty gets FnP to mortals) and I'll line up a suicidal deffkopta for for a mortal wound charge into him with ramming speed so I can "confidently" take him down.
20-30 boyz + a weirdboy to get the power reliably off (perhaps the "bones" relic could help mitigate a bad roll) + 2 CP for dakka dakka + a kustom stompa with bellygun
I don't think adding a 155 point burna bommer and a cp to crash it is a good idea though, at some point enough is enough. The kopta you can always position for a 3d6 charge, and if morty comes out indeed with 1-2 wounds left, then in the assault phase you wack 2 cp and go for the 3d6 charge causing d3 mortal wounds !! Waagh
I would love to try that out but I must say that is a lot of resources, though one shotting the new morty is priceless indeed.
Unfortunately the git bones relic doesn't effect shadows in the smoke so we're stuck with the +3 from 30 Boyz. With a reroll you're looking at the spell going of 92% of the time.
The real question is do you go balls out and take cut off the head for 12vp T1. Force your opponent to put Morty in reserves delaying Morty's effect on the game.
Unfortunately the git bones relic doesn't effect shadows in the smoke so we're stuck with the +3 from 30 Boyz. With a reroll you're looking at the spell going of 92% of the time.
The real question is do you go balls out and take cut off the head for 12vp T1. Force your opponent to put Morty in reserves delaying Morty's effect on the game.
F... yeah you do ! Cut that Mother...er's head ! With a stompa ! I mean, really, that is 40k at its best (this coming from a tourney player hah hah).
Seriously some WTC tables enable morty to hide (a sad thing, but I don't have a choice), you are british I see, do you play WTC or not ? Anyway, a stompa is so big it can probably find an angle to see a bit of morty regardless of WTC terrain
Unfortunately the git bones relic doesn't effect shadows in the smoke so we're stuck with the +3 from 30 Boyz. With a reroll you're looking at the spell going of 92% of the time.
The real question is do you go balls out and take cut off the head for 12vp T1. Force your opponent to put Morty in reserves delaying Morty's effect on the game.
Is that counting the likleyhood of getting the 12+ which is an instant perils and the spell not going off?
Spell still goes goes off on a 12+ but you do perils. Weird boys 4 wounds combo'd with the painboy keeps him alive. I'd often spend the 1cp to heal d3 wounds on him if needs be.
Unfortunately the git bones relic doesn't effect shadows in the smoke so we're stuck with the +3 from 30 Boyz. With a reroll you're looking at the spell going of 92% of the time.
The real question is do you go balls out and take cut off the head for 12vp T1. Force your opponent to put Morty in reserves delaying Morty's effect on the game.
F... yeah you do ! Cut that Mother...er's head ! With a stompa ! I mean, really, that is 40k at its best (this coming from a tourney player hah hah).
Seriously some WTC tables enable morty to hide (a sad thing, but I don't have a choice), you are british I see, do you play WTC or not ? Anyway, a stompa is so big it can probably find an angle to see a bit of morty regardless of WTC terrain
I'm dying for some tournament play. My current list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Perils on a 12+ only stops the spell if it kills the weird boy which has a 0% chance of happening T1 of its the first spell you pop off.
I'm not certain about that, I don't have the rulebook on me. I thought that was something that changed with the edition, that a perils = the spell stops.
If i were to make a fun army build, against a custodies player, with a Da boomer, Gorkanaut, Kannonwagon and a Gargantuan Squiggoth with a supa kannon (the squig is in an auxillary), would i benefit the most from Evil Sunz --> visions --> Da boomer --> More dakka, or would i benefit the most from just going Bad Moon for rerolling all 1s in the shooting phase?
Granted visions with Da boomer and more dakka is a damage out of this world, that is the only unit that gets buffed, where as Bad Moon sort of buffs everyone of those vehicles (minus the garg squig since auxiallary) by rerolling ones.
I cant make up my mind about what would make most sense.
cody.d. wrote: I'm not certain about that, I don't have the rulebook on me. I thought that was something that changed with the edition, that a perils = the spell stops.
Nope looking at the rulebook now and nowhere does it say perils stops a cast. Only that if a psycher dies from perils the spell fails.
I've had decent results blasting Deathwing apart with Smashas but the fact that Dark Angels got that much cancer in one update is just painful to watch
Jidmah wrote: Yikes, Deathwing can have objective secured now.
I guess it's time to switch from orks to death guard till we get our codex.
I think that matchup for Orks is probably a 65-35 range loss for us
It's gonna be rough. They have the exact tools to dismantle hordes, and SM have plenty of options for killing vehicles.
We can get around transhuman with mek guns, but spamming mek guns is not a popular build and may not even be the winning tool for us in this matchup anyway.
Not a bad win rate as things go. I am still curious what's going to happen with the DE codex, show us what GW has planned for a faction that is NOT marine flavour x, y or z. Will the DE have as much flavour as DA seems to be getting this weekend? Will things like Wyches actually feel like gladiatorial fighters or just a watered down Harlies unit?
cody.d. wrote: Not a bad win rate as things go. I am still curious what's going to happen with the DE codex, show us what GW has planned for a faction that is NOT marine flavour x, y or z. Will the DE have as much flavour as DA seems to be getting this weekend? Will things like Wyches actually feel like gladiatorial fighters or just a watered down Harlies unit?
Yeah, we are fine. But my budy with his Imperial Guard struggles a lot. I let him go first, otherwise it makes no sence..,
cody.d. wrote: Not a bad win rate as things go. I am still curious what's going to happen with the DE codex, show us what GW has planned for a faction that is NOT marine flavour x, y or z. Will the DE have as much flavour as DA seems to be getting this weekend? Will things like Wyches actually feel like gladiatorial fighters or just a watered down Harlies unit?
Yeah, we are fine. But my budy with his Imperial Guard struggles a lot. I let him go first, otherwise it makes no sence..,
Imperial guard are fine if you go for the builds that work, what list does he play ? They can win again orks just fine. They are not an easy army to play though, but neither is orks
cody.d. wrote: Not a bad win rate as things go. I am still curious what's going to happen with the DE codex, show us what GW has planned for a faction that is NOT marine flavour x, y or z. Will the DE have as much flavour as DA seems to be getting this weekend? Will things like Wyches actually feel like gladiatorial fighters or just a watered down Harlies unit?
Yeah, we are fine. But my budy with his Imperial Guard struggles a lot. I let him go first, otherwise it makes no sence..,
Imperial guard are fine if you go for the builds that work, what list does he play ? They can win again orks just fine. They are not an easy army to play though, but neither is orks
This is maybe to another thread. But he has quite huge collection, so we tried a lot of different combinations. The only that he lacks are bulgryns and that seems to be problem) But honestly, I “play” Guard via helping him to make it work simultaneusly with orks over a year and orks have much better army now. I can build about 4 different but very much working ork lists now at least. I can choose from a couple of different tactics that works fine. IG grind the ground and eat the mud. Terrible CC perfomance except one unit? No fast units except one?. They can flood the table with guardsman that (in compare to flooding with the boyz) do nothing. Or park the tanks behind and try to shoot you and lost on VP. Or feed the middle with bulgryns in transport, which is equivalent of Meganobz in Trukks. What they need is some kind of deffrola on their tanks.....
4 orks different lists I mean:
1. Ghazz + green tide, mostly goffs with some meganob support usually = tactic is to flood the table
2. Buggy list of deathskulls = tactics is to be kunnin and killing
3. Trukk MANz with some kind of support (buggies, SAGs, etc..) = tactic is based on elit inf on objectives with fire support
4. Nauts and BW variations lists with motowarbos. Part of them parks behind, part of them advance and charge via the warboss = tactics is based on masive shooting and large vehicles charging in the opponents face.
Has anyone tried running massed trukks with nobz, MANz, boys, lootas, flash gitz, etc?
I would assume evil sunz is the mandatory kultur...
I picture nothing but infantry & characters in trukks and nothing else
After enemy shooting whatever trukks you have left can be used as a literal 2-3 foot wall of 5++ cover with some tying up shooty units. Mob up any boyz mobs to full strength, and abuse Loot It! on everyone
Even tellyport a trukk full of MANz if need be and Da Jump any units left stranded in the open if a Weirdboy is nearby I guess
Yeah, Guard are in a pretty bad spot competitively speaking. Even in a semi-competitive environment they don't do so hot with the current rules, they easily give up Bring it Down and Thin Their Ranks pretty consistently even with the new changes. Mix that with a relative inability to contest central objectives and it results in an army that's pretty anemic to scoring. Weirdly enough, spamming DKoK rough riders are one of the few things doing well for them in that regard.
Has anyone tried running massed trukks with nobz, MANz, boys, lootas, flash gitz, etc?
I would assume evil sunz is the mandatory kultur...
I picture nothing but infantry & characters in trukks and nothing else
After enemy shooting whatever trukks you have left can be used as a literal 2-3 foot wall of 5++ cover with some tying up shooty units. Mob up any boyz mobs to full strength, and abuse Loot It! on everyone
Even tellyport a trukk full of MANz if need be and Da Jump any units left stranded in the open if a Weirdboy is nearby I guess
Trukk spam isn't really viable like you said because you're investing so many points into a transport platform that has no offensive capability. In contrast to battlewagons/bonebreakas, who at least perform their CC role relatively well, trukks don't do much beyond body-blocking and tying up units. While that's not bad and it's good as a core of a few Boyz squads if you need troops, once you go beyond 3 there's diminishing returns on how much they can do and block. Certain armies like harlequins won't give a crap about being tied up and can easily move across and ignore the parking lot you've set up. Others have enough killing power to basically gain the full Bring it Down from just killing them. If I was to spam a transport, it would be the Big Trakk, since you could tie that with Blood Axes and have them fall back and charge again to try and spam MW's, but they're Heavy Support which kinda limits how much you can bring comparatively speaking.
Has anyone tried running massed trukks with nobz, MANz, boys, lootas, flash gitz, etc?
I would assume evil sunz is the mandatory kultur...
I picture nothing but infantry & characters in trukks and nothing else
After enemy shooting whatever trukks you have left can be used as a literal 2-3 foot wall of 5++ cover with some tying up shooty units. Mob up any boyz mobs to full strength, and abuse Loot It! on everyone
Even tellyport a trukk full of MANz if need be and Da Jump any units left stranded in the open if a Weirdboy is nearby I guess
“3. trukk MANz spam” = 3x trukk with manz or tankbustas or something...
Because after a quick dip of their rules, I am confident in saying they are the best army in the game, as of the current set of books that are out in 9th.
Because after a quick dip of their rules, I am confident in saying they are the best army in the game, as of the current set of books that are out in 9th.
Kill the Biker character giving the Terminators 5” deepstrike in T1, screen well and let them march.
Boris420 wrote: Does "Visions in the smoke" work on Deffkoptas? If you had a unit of 5 would all of them benefit or just one?
It works since deffkoptas have the vehicle keyword. It specifies that it works on the whole unit. To make it worth your while, you would have to take rokkit racks to do any meaningful damage, but I feel like compared to a gunwagon with Da Boomer or a kannonwagon with the supakannon that they fall short, mainly because they're significantly easier to kill and they have to get within 24" to do damage, which is the ideal engagement zone for the majority of enemy units.
Because after a quick dip of their rules, I am confident in saying they are the best army in the game, as of the current set of books that are out in 9th.
They lost a few things like their ability to deepstrike within 6 inches of an enemy, provided they had a Ravenwing unit nearby. But I'd suggest massed Smasha guns against their Terminators (their ridiculous permeant transhuman which is cancerous makes these particularly efficient) Against Greenwing you'll have to rely upon more elite melee as they can shut down engagement range to only models within base to base with a stratagem. The goal should be kill Greenwing in one combat round as they'll be able to shoot in combat. Shut down all his plasma as fast as possible as it can spike in damage with WOtDA. Plasma Inceptors and Hellblasters should be high on your target priority.
Otherwise I'm not sure beyond that. Also if he brings his named chapter master, kill that guy as fast as possible he has a 4++ KFF that only requires the unit to be within it to work, as opposed to our "Wholly within"
And they shall know no fear should be
And they shall know no unfavorable rules
Jidmah wrote: In most games koptas feel like inferior scapjets though... despite being quite fond of them, I stopped bringing them.
I have a feeling, the most of the units feel like inferior srapjets recently. After every game I tend to switch something to more scrapjets.... excpet Dragstas...
Scrapjet is really an excellent unit though, I loved it since its release. Dragsta is also very good but bringing more than a squadron could be too much against some armies. Scrapjets can be brought in high numbers while remaining pretty TAC due to their jack-of-trades nature.
Gonna throw my vote into the scrapjet bin as well. For their price they do quite a lot very well. Koptas have a handful of advantages over them. Bigger unit size, fly, speed and a handful more stratagems. But dragstas have better dakka, better melee and tougher normally.
Not sure if i'd call scrapjets a lynchpin unit but they make a solid distraction carnifex with how well they can choke up the field and put out a bit of damage. 9 of them racing up the field would be rather hilarious.
True, the switch from plasma to melta being the weapon of choice these days does put a bit of a hamper on many of our squishy, non invul vehicles. Perhaps if ramshackle becomes an armywide rule for our vehicles that could help a touch. Or if the meta swings further away from D2 weapons our nobs may see more play.
Plasma Inceptors are real good. It seems like people have been teching into them over eradicators.
And Multi Melta bikes.
Sisters are just scary. Miracle dice with melta is crazy good.
I do think the death guard's disgustingly resilient, dreads duty eternal and other similar rules that reduce damage may have an affect on the popularity of plasma. Especially if rules like that become more common with books in this edition. Goodness knows what DE are going to get for an example.
Tomsug wrote: Yeah, meltas with miracle dices makes me think about 3 SAGs to outshooot them.
And the Zephyrins - jetpacks infantry was also super usefull.
So I like Liam Hacket list with 3x stormboyz and 3x SAG even more....
Can't you grant your melta toting girls ("retributors" if I am not mistaken) a 4++ with the right build ? That won't go down easy with the few hits you get out of a few smasha gunz and three SAGs. The exorcist tanks will go down in one turn though
Tomsug wrote: Yeah, meltas with miracle dices makes me think about 3 SAGs to outshooot them.
And the Zephyrins - jetpacks infantry was also super usefull.
So I like Liam Hacket list with 3x stormboyz and 3x SAG even more....
Can't you grant your melta toting girls ("retributors" if I am not mistaken) a 4++ with the right build ? That won't go down easy with the few hits you get out of a few smasha gunz and three SAGs. The exorcist tanks will go down in one turn though
There was so much X++ and FNP I didn ´ t even bother. Simply, you need enough dakka.
The problem was solved by the combination of mass medium fire - the best was the Rivet Cannon and first of all the super nasty combination of Ramming Speed + Unstopable momentum used on Spiked Ram Vehicle. Let' s say 6 MW + close combat lock and damage by single KBB againts mostly W1 T3 units... scrapjet will be even better, but those was smoking wrecks already....
This worked pretty well and solved the Nun problem. Yeah, well... not alltogether, I 've lost, but 68:84 is not so bad
Plasma Inceptors are real good. It seems like people have been teching into them over eradicators.
And Multi Melta bikes.
Sisters are just scary. Miracle dice with melta is crazy good.
I think the people affected much more by the melta changes are the semi-competitive people which just draw the best units from their collections. Nu-Meltas and all the new 3+d3 weapons simply delete vehicles like our buggies, no matter what platform they are on.
It's really just like 7th when armies started getting their decurions right now. In direct comparison, it's completely bonkers how much more efficient DG are compared to orks, despite neither being a particularly weak or powerful army. In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.
Plasma Inceptors are real good. It seems like people have been teching into them over eradicators.
And Multi Melta bikes.
Sisters are just scary. Miracle dice with melta is crazy good.
I think the people affected much more by the melta changes are the semi-competitive people which just draw the best units from their collections. Nu-Meltas and all the new 3+d3 weapons simply delete vehicles like our buggies, no matter what platform they are on.
It's really just like 7th when armies started getting their decurions right now. In direct comparison, it's completely bonkers how much more efficient DG are compared to orks, despite neither being a particularly weak or powerful army.
In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.
Jidmah, in your opinion DG is not an overall more powerful army than orks ? (I agree on the difference between 9th ed codexes with all options being viable as opposed to 8th ed codexes where 2/3 of the options were just no good at all)
..... In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.
addnid wrote: Jidmah, in your opinion DG is not an overall more powerful army than orks ? (I agree on the difference between 9th ed codexes with all options being viable as opposed to 8th ed codexes where 2/3 of the options were just no good at all)
Nah, they are slow as feth Orks should easily be able to beat them at the primary game, but you need to put some work into countering their secondaries. Most importantly, you need to stay alive to counter them, so my usual "suicide everything" playstyle would probably doom me against DG.
In addition, their daemon engines now die just as fast as other stuff in their weight category. They have gotten more powerful in melee though, if you get the jump on them, you win, if they get the charge you're toast. Be very aware of the Haze of Corruption stratagem that allows any overkill damage to jump to the next model, like flails used to work. It works for all CORE units, so plague marines, terminators, possessed and helbrutes (NOT characters!). Don't get caught off guard when a helbrute or infantry squad suddenly murders half a unit of boyz in a single round of combat. Another gotcha stratagem worth noting for orks is that plague marines can turn their grenades into pistol 6 that auto-hit units in engagement range. Three surviving plague marines will kill 8-9 boyz with this on average.
Just whatever you do, don't fight deathshroud - they are insane murder machines in combat and have flamer pistols. Shoot till they stop moving and then shoot them some more to make sure that they stay dead.
Note that I haven't played Mortarion yet, as the games at home are limited to 1000 points, and I've only had one 2k TTS game with the new codex so far.
The one thing to look forward to is the disappearance of harlequins from top tables, which is good for our buggies. DG just walk all over them.
TL;DR: While DG are more powerful than orks because they don't need to drag baggage along anymore while orks do, they still are probably in the same tier.
Plasma Inceptors are real good. It seems like people have been teching into them over eradicators.
And Multi Melta bikes.
Sisters are just scary. Miracle dice with melta is crazy good.
I think the people affected much more by the melta changes are the semi-competitive people which just draw the best units from their collections. Nu-Meltas and all the new 3+d3 weapons simply delete vehicles like our buggies, no matter what platform they are on.
It's really just like 7th when armies started getting their decurions right now. In direct comparison, it's completely bonkers how much more efficient DG are compared to orks, despite neither being a particularly weak or powerful army.
In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.
I agree with Jid. In 9th the armies that are coming out are ramping up in terms of damage output and survivability along with tools to play the missions better and interact with you opponents rules like turning off ObSec and auras. As time goes on the older Codexes will feel this power curve even more because 1 army is playing from an 8th edition mindset and another from a 9th edition. Doesnt mean Orks can't win vs these codexes, its just getting increasingly harder with what we have available to us.
I can't really play as it is right now anyway, so I don't mind waiting for my Orks and Admech to get a codex, but seeing batreps, tournament results and reading the codexes and forums you can see the power divide pretty clearly.
In 9th edition codices, it feels like every single unit, relic, warlord trait and psychic power are good at what they are supposed to do, while 8th edition codices have to drag stuff along because they simply have no better options.
It makes me look forward to our next codex.
Cause boy howdy, Orks are already pretty good. If most of our datasheets were actually useable, it would be an absolute blast.
Brought a Stompa, mek and Big Mek with KFF to a 1k point narrative last week. Unsurprisingly had almost no CP for that list lol.
Most fun I had in a while. Most games ended in turn 4-5 and it was always close one way or another. With the single exception of playing against a nid player and watching a stupid FW tyranid kill it in a single combat on the first turn. It'll never be worth it's points but it's by far the most fun model in the game to play. I just wish it had Str 8 guns instead of Str 7. The gun is bigger then a Russ itself.
I think between the rumour engine, the teaser that was shown with the Admech, DE, and SoB that we are due at some point in 2021. The real question is when since GW are still struggling to catch up with their new roadmap. People are saying Admech is most likely next, so if they're alternating between Imperials/Xenos, then it's likely either DE or Orks afterwards.
cody.d. wrote: It'll be fun if we do get a codex this year, if only to have new toys to play with, new tactics to try. New memes to meme.
If the new 9th codices are anything to go by, and assuming they stick to the design paradigm without changing things halfway like they always do, I am looking forward to having our own secondaries since it's getting a little monotonous taking the same safe choices in the core rulebook so far. Also seeing how they incorporate the new method of giving points to buff our characters will be nice as well as having newer strats and relics to take beyond just the Killa Klaw will be nice. Orks are already in a pretty decent position compared to a lot of other armies, so as long as they polish up the stuff that's outdated and currently suboptimal (looking at you lootas/burna boyz) I'll be happy.
Oh, secondaries is a fantastic point. I'd imagine there would be one simply for being in combat, either with characters or a certain number of models. We'll probably get one similar to raise the banners, just cause that seems common. And likely a weirdboy focused one. Goodness knows what.
But yeah, as long as we can feasibly use most if not all units in the codex i'll be pretty content. Dosen't matter if we're top squig as long as we can have a decent chance of winning.
Also wondering what our turn based mechanic is going to be, every army seems to be getting one. PFP, doctrines, the DG plague auras. The AOS version is powerful and all, but a touch boring.
cody.d. wrote: Oh, secondaries is a fantastic point. I'd imagine there would be one simply for being in combat, either with characters or a certain number of models. We'll probably get one similar to raise the banners, just cause that seems common. And likely a weirdboy focused one. Goodness knows what.
But yeah, as long as we can feasibly use most if not all units in the codex i'll be pretty content. Dosen't matter if we're top squig as long as we can have a decent chance of winning.
Also wondering what our turn based mechanic is going to be, every army seems to be getting one. PFP, doctrines, the DG plague auras. The AOS version is powerful and all, but a touch boring.
Yeah, what our equivalent of doctrines/protocols is going to be interesting, since Orks aren't exactly an ordered bunch. It'll have to do with something WAAAGH! based, just not sure how they'll factor our dakka and our CC ability at the same time, since the AoS one is basically only (understandably) oriented to CC and magic heavy lists. It's very possible that similar to how Necron named dynasties get certain buffs that our Klanz can determine what kind of boosts we get, with Goffs getting more CC boosts while Bad Moonz might be more shooting oriented.
i could see it being a cascading thing that either simply gets meaner every turn or after certain events it gets meaner.
Such as bringing down something big (18+ wounds or just LoW tag) grants a permanent armywide buff.
So something closer to the Power from Pain stuff that DE get? I could see that, with conditional things moving you up the scale/turn if you do stuff like take down a big enemy or if a unit like Ghazzy is in your army.
Maybe a sort of "mark" or bounty system? The boss points at something big or fancy and the lads go at it with different klans doing it in different ways. Goffs wanna hit it, deffskulls wanna loot it, evil suns wanna ram it really fast. Seems like the sort of thing orks would do.
Boris420 wrote: Hey all, if I bring 3 trukks but only hope to use 1-2 to transport units, would that be enough or should I expect all 3 to be blown up turn 1?
Boris420 wrote: Hey all, if I bring 3 trukks but only hope to use 1-2 to transport units, would that be enough or should I expect all 3 to be blown up turn 1?
Depends on what the rest of your list is. If those are the only vehicles in your army then you should expect most to be destroyed if not severely damaged if you don't hide them behind obscuring terrain T1. If you run multiple trukks it's best to do it alongside buggies or other vehicles in order to have armour saturation.
Boris420 wrote: Hey all, if I bring 3 trukks but only hope to use 1-2 to transport units, would that be enough or should I expect all 3 to be blown up turn 1?
What's the third trukk for?
Haha hopefully to use what I intend to transport if possible if any of them survive
Boris420 wrote: Hey all, if I bring 3 trukks but only hope to use 1-2 to transport units, would that be enough or should I expect all 3 to be blown up turn 1?
Depends on what the rest of your list is. If those are the only vehicles in your army then you should expect most to be destroyed if not severely damaged if you don't hide them behind obscuring terrain T1. If you run multiple trukks it's best to do it alongside buggies or other vehicles in order to have armour saturation.
My only other vehicles are 5 deffkoptas & some mek gunz until I get some buggies. I got some stormboyz along with Boyz using da jump. I guess even a KFF wouldn't help much to protect the trukks. I just hoped bringing 3 would guarantee 1 left to transport nobz or meganobz. Tellyporta could work but it might arrive on the board too late...
Vineheart01 wrote: i could see it being a cascading thing that either simply gets meaner every turn or after certain events it gets meaner.
Such as bringing down something big (18+ wounds or just LoW tag) grants a permanent armywide buff.
It could also a new Waaagh! mechanic in the style of the Orruk Warclans Big Waaagh! Increases over the course of the game.
Warhammer store promo item when you spend £60/$75. Usually tied to a related release. I believe a new one is issued each month until supplies last... you can also request previous months coins if they still have them.
Previous comments I kept hearing was projected release Jan but I think Covid plans threw it out a bit further and I keep hearing Q1 and early Q2 at the latest.
Previous comments I kept hearing was projected release Jan but I think Covid plans threw it out a bit further and I keep hearing Q1 and early Q2 at the latest.
Currently we know it's one 40k release per month, with the next up being Drukhari. Considering how we have already seen models for two other factions in addition to orks, they are likely to be released in April, May or June.
Munitorum update - point costs for options nob bikers and warbiker boss nob couldn't take anyways are gone once again. So definitely no dual killsaws on warbike.
Watched the Dice Check Battle Report of Markys Orks vs. SW. Deathskulls trait seems really strong this edition with objec sec & free re-rolls. He only had a 30 man unit of Boyz with killsaws Nob & 2x 10 shootas plain. Mostly had Mek Gunz & Dragstas with tankbustas plus Kommandos. Didn't seem to even need the KFF with just 50 Boyz in a 2K game and made it to the final round defeating everything from Crons, Quinns, DA, DG, DW, SW twice, BA, IG, SoB, etc. Only had 2 trukks and they survived most of the game granted he was facing a mostly melee army.. Lots of terrain too.
Made me rethink trukks auto-dying turn 1 if you take them (except against guard/T'au), Da Jump not being as important with smaller tables & deep-strike denial, even needing a Weirdboy at all, needing a Nob in Boyz mobs or banking on Unstoppable Green Tide.
Vanilla Kommandos definitely pulled their weight, KMK is clutch, Dragsta's seemed better as Deathskulls vs. Bad Moon/Evil Sunz & the tankbustas made their points back & then some. I do think that if he faced another competent Ork player all the things I questioned would be for naught as a pure horde list of Orks would have given him trouble simply by having numbers but I wonder if that tournament would even have time allotment for such a list hence why he probably had a few small mobs to begin with...
Anywho, I have seen other BatReps where Da Jump still seems strong imo & I would always take a KFF/painboy combo with waagh banner. I always like to take Sunz but all the extra movement may no longer be necessary compared to free re-rolls & objec sec. on all units on a smaller board. I will dust off my trukks in hopes they indeed do survive long enough to be useful. All in all it was a great insight to 9th ed.
Damn.... All ORK TROOPS (= incl. Grots!!) - no matter of the clan or grottines - have obsec... it is nothing new, it' s in the codex since the beginning. I'm perplexed. This is newbee faux pass...
So, finally got to try out my Killtanks in a game. Ran 2 dakka one bursta with 2 trukks of boyz with rokkit and klaw. Sittin in the back was 30boyz with mechanical seizures weirdboy and KFF mek. A pair of min kommando units and a max smashagun unit rounded out the force.
Was against a Blood angel player with a pretty aggressive army. bladeguard, sang guard dethcompany and several buffing characters with a some full sized marine squads for holding objectives.
The killtanks did fairly well in durability and killing. One lost half it's health to a DC unit, the other got wiped a turn later by the sang guard. They feel decently accurate with nice guns the mechanical seizures helping to get around the meh AP. But dang I sorta wish for DMG2 on the dakka. The dakka version usually killed 4 or so marines every time it fired. The bursta squished 3 bladeguard even with transhuman up. Smasha gunz are fantastic for cutting through transhuman as well. I tried to use the boyz in their various forms to either clog charge lanes or push onto objectives and largely they did fairly well at that. But also had a minor tendency to keep the killtanks for advancing as well and using that chunky CQC profile. Still run over marines fairly nicely.
By the end of it I had well over 1K points left, 2 of the killtanks at full health while the BA player had very, very little left. if we had of gone past turn 3 I think I would have tabled him. Buuuut BA are BA and he played aggressive and controlled the objectives. Winning by over 30points. I certainly need to get better at secondaries honestly.
cody.d. wrote: So, finally got to try out my Killtanks in a game. Ran 2 dakka one bursta with 2 trukks of boyz with rokkit and klaw. Sittin in the back was 30boyz with mechanical seizures weirdboy and KFF mek. A pair of min kommando units and a max smashagun unit rounded out the force.
Was against a Blood angel player with a pretty aggressive army. bladeguard, sang guard dethcompany and several buffing characters with a some full sized marine squads for holding objectives.
The killtanks did fairly well in durability and killing. One lost half it's health to a DC unit, the other got wiped a turn later by the sang guard. They feel decently accurate with nice guns the mechanical seizures helping to get around the meh AP. But dang I sorta wish for DMG2 on the dakka. The dakka version usually killed 4 or so marines every time it fired. The bursta squished 3 bladeguard even with transhuman up. Smasha gunz are fantastic for cutting through transhuman as well. I tried to use the boyz in their various forms to either clog charge lanes or push onto objectives and largely they did fairly well at that. But also had a minor tendency to keep the killtanks for advancing as well and using that chunky CQC profile. Still run over marines fairly nicely.
By the end of it I had well over 1K points left, 2 of the killtanks at full health while the BA player had very, very little left. if we had of gone past turn 3 I think I would have tabled him. Buuuut BA are BA and he played aggressive and controlled the objectives. Winning by over 30points. I certainly need to get better at secondaries honestly.
I have had two games in with triple KT (all of them cheap dakka version) I believe they pull their weight fairly well. Second game I played them as bad moons, they much better ! Interesting, you kept a blob of boyz, were they useful ?
On another note, for me you probably had the win for the game,, unless you were the one playing too slowly. You don’t think you could have caught up being 30 point behind ?
cody.d. wrote: So, finally got to try out my Killtanks in a game. Ran 2 dakka one bursta with 2 trukks of boyz with rokkit and klaw. Sittin in the back was 30boyz with mechanical seizures weirdboy and KFF mek. A pair of min kommando units and a max smashagun unit rounded out the force.
Was against a Blood angel player with a pretty aggressive army. bladeguard, sang guard dethcompany and several buffing characters with a some full sized marine squads for holding objectives.
The killtanks did fairly well in durability and killing. One lost half it's health to a DC unit, the other got wiped a turn later by the sang guard. They feel decently accurate with nice guns the mechanical seizures helping to get around the meh AP. But dang I sorta wish for DMG2 on the dakka. The dakka version usually killed 4 or so marines every time it fired. The bursta squished 3 bladeguard even with transhuman up. Smasha gunz are fantastic for cutting through transhuman as well. I tried to use the boyz in their various forms to either clog charge lanes or push onto objectives and largely they did fairly well at that. But also had a minor tendency to keep the killtanks for advancing as well and using that chunky CQC profile. Still run over marines fairly nicely.
By the end of it I had well over 1K points left, 2 of the killtanks at full health while the BA player had very, very little left. if we had of gone past turn 3 I think I would have tabled him. Buuuut BA are BA and he played aggressive and controlled the objectives. Winning by over 30points. I certainly need to get better at secondaries honestly.
I have had two games in with triple KT (all of them cheap dakka version) I believe they pull their weight fairly well. Second game I played them as bad moons, they much better ! Interesting, you kept a blob of boyz, were they useful ?
On another note, for me you probably had the win for the game,, unless you were the one playing too slowly. You don’t think you could have caught up being 30 point behind ?
We called it at turn 3 or 4 I think, the secondaries I took were engage, assasin and banners. Banners were was a mistake. I wanted to use the kommandos to grab it but sadly that didn't work out. A libby dashed across the field to take care of them. Likely the characters would have been killed by the tanks as he had no solution to them after the big hitters were killed. But even with that we agreed he was just too far ahead.
The boys were useful for keeping CQC units off the tanks and giving the buffs to spellcasting, but besides that only really killed an impulsor and actually got in the way of my tanks. Though terrain didn't help. It was on the short edges and some shipping containers pretty much made for a traffic jam. So a lot of factors. But I do like them as Deffskullz, for the invul as much as the rerolls and access to the extra AP. AP is the only thing holding the tanks back IMO. They hit hard with AP3 and AP2 Melee.
Playing against thousand sons this saturday for the first time and could use some advice! Opponents list includes 2 daemon prince of tzeentch, 2 squads of 5 rubrics, a maulerfiend w/ lasher tendrils, and a rhino w/ combi bolter and combi melta. I'm running a goffs list with a Big mek w/ MA, 30 boyz, 2 squads of 5 nobz, and 1 deff dread.
zoltan88 wrote: Playing against thousand sons this saturday for the first time and could use some advice! Opponents list includes 2 daemon prince of tzeentch, 2 squads of 5 rubrics, a maulerfiend w/ lasher tendrils, and a rhino w/ combi bolter and combi melta. I'm running a goffs list with a Big mek w/ MA, 30 boyz, 2 squads of 5 nobz, and 1 deff dread.
What should my priority targets be?
I'm thinking I need to get rid of that maulerfiend ASAP cause he will tear through my skwads. Maybe throw the deff dread and a squad of nobz on him? Do I focus on the marines after that?
You're in luck that currently Thousand Sons are NOT a good faction in the current game. However, you still need to prioritize the mission and threats, which you've already stated and that's great. The Maulerfiend is actually a significantly smaller threat than that of the Daemon Princes IMO, since the Daemon Princes are the ones that are casting the buffs and spells that will make life harder for you, which you currently can't stop given your lack of psykers. That's okay though! This enables you to take the Abhor the Witch secondary, which will give you decent VP's for more than half his list since they are all pretty much psyker units barring the rhino an forge fiend. Also, what do you currently have equipped for your Nobz squads? I would actually avoid having them in combat with the Maulerfiend because the multi-wound attacks he has with the tendrils and his basic fists basically oneshot your Nobz currently, you're more likely to kill it through weight of numbers and the Nob with Killsaws in your boyz unit squatting on an objective since he has to come to you anyways and he won't be able to contest it until he wipes out your whole unit.
Speaking of Klans, depending on how much you want to push for your preferred Klan trait, your army is right now much better off as Deffskullz than Goffs. Deffskullz will give a 6+ invulnerable save against both his shooting and CC, versus what you currently have which would be nothing in most instances. Furthermore, it would give both your Big Mek and your Nobz Objective Secured, making it even harder for him to knock you off objectives since his only Obsec units are his 2 squads of Rubric Marines. It also helps your Deff Dread a lot since he (and the rest of your units) get to reroll one hit and one wound, and damage roll every time they attack, so it makes it a lot more consistent IMO.
So I would say if you can target them, kill the Daemon Princes first, followed by the marines since they're the only Obsec thing in his army which means you have the numbers advantage afterwards to hold objectives after they're dead.
On a side note, anyone notice the changes to the Splinter Cannon for the DE preview? They've basically got heavy bolter stats, but became heavy. I'm surprised by the heavy given the emphasis on mobility for DE, but the damage boost is a welcome change. Do you think they're just going to normalize HB equivalents across all armies at this point?
zoltan88 wrote: Playing against thousand sons this saturday for the first time and could use some advice! Opponents list includes 2 daemon prince of tzeentch, 2 squads of 5 rubrics, a maulerfiend w/ lasher tendrils, and a rhino w/ combi bolter and combi melta. I'm running a goffs list with a Big mek w/ MA, 30 boyz, 2 squads of 5 nobz, and 1 deff dread.
What should my priority targets be?
I'm thinking I need to get rid of that maulerfiend ASAP cause he will tear through my skwads. Maybe throw the deff dread and a squad of nobz on him? Do I focus on the marines after that?
You're in luck that currently Thousand Sons are NOT a good faction in the current game. However, you still need to prioritize the mission and threats, which you've already stated and that's great. The Maulerfiend is actually a significantly smaller threat than that of the Daemon Princes IMO, since the Daemon Princes are the ones that are casting the buffs and spells that will make life harder for you, which you currently can't stop given your lack of psykers. That's okay though! This enables you to take the Abhor the Witch secondary, which will give you decent VP's for more than half his list since they are all pretty much psyker units barring the rhino an forge fiend. Also, what do you currently have equipped for your Nobz squads? I would actually avoid having them in combat with the Maulerfiend because the multi-wound attacks he has with the tendrils and his basic fists basically oneshot your Nobz currently, you're more likely to kill it through weight of numbers and the Nob with Killsaws in your boyz unit squatting on an objective since he has to come to you anyways and he won't be able to contest it until he wipes out your whole unit.
Speaking of Klans, depending on how much you want to push for your preferred Klan trait, your army is right now much better off as Deffskullz than Goffs. Deffskullz will give a 6+ invulnerable save against both his shooting and CC, versus what you currently have which would be nothing in most instances. Furthermore, it would give both your Big Mek and your Nobz Objective Secured, making it even harder for him to knock you off objectives since his only Obsec units are his 2 squads of Rubric Marines. It also helps your Deff Dread a lot since he (and the rest of your units) get to reroll one hit and one wound, and damage roll every time they attack, so it makes it a lot more consistent IMO.
So I would say if you can target them, kill the Daemon Princes first, followed by the marines since they're the only Obsec thing in his army which means you have the numbers advantage afterwards to hold objectives after they're dead.
On a side note, anyone notice the changes to the Splinter Cannon for the DE preview? They've basically got heavy bolter stats, but became heavy. I'm surprised by the heavy given the emphasis on mobility for DE, but the damage boost is a welcome change. Do you think they're just going to normalize HB equivalents across all armies at this point?
This is wonderful advice. Thank you! I had not thought about switching to deffskullz but that makes total since in this game. Most of my lists include Ghaz so I don't even think about it.
My only concern with focusing on the daemon princes first is they are going to be SO tanky. Likely -1 to hit because she has two psykers with glamour. 1 of the rubrics has temporal manipulation as well just to add salt to the wound. But I do like the idea of combining abhor the witch with cut off the head and just going all out of the DPs. No good options on the 3rd secondary. I don't like engage at 750 pts.
Hey guys. having a friendly match soon against a custodies player, and i intend to bring a Da Boomer, A kannon wagon, a Gorkanaut and an auxillary gargantuan squiggoth with supa kannon (which wont get any klan kulture of course).
the rest is just chaff units to take points etc.
Anyway, i cant figure out if the Gorkanaut, Boomer and kannon wagon benefits the most from being Evil sunz where you throw visions in the smoke on the boomer (or one of the others in case it dies) to make it extra killy with more dakka, or its more beneficial to simply go Bad Moon.
Going evil sunz is risky if you fail your casting, but rewarding by turning at least one of those 3 vehicles in to a murder machine, where as if Bad Moonz just outright buffs all 3 vehicles with rerollings of 1 in the shooting phase. But im terrible with math so i dont know if rerolling 1s for all 3 vehicles in the shooting phase is better than turning 1 vehicle in to a reroll all failed hits and potentially throwing more dakka on it.
It's certainly possible they could make the big shoota a standard heavy bolter. I'm fairly certain it will have little to no negatives for us as besides the occasional boyz squad all our big shootaz are on vehicles and usually in groups of 4. A pip of AP and/or D2 would certainly go a long way in making the big shoota a credible threat.
This is wonderful advice. Thank you! I had not thought about switching to deffskullz but that makes total since in this game. Most of my lists include Ghaz so I don't even think about it.
My only concern with focusing on the daemon princes first is they are going to be SO tanky. Likely -1 to hit because she has two psykers with glamour. 1 of the rubrics has temporal manipulation as well just to add salt to the wound. But I do like the idea of combining abhor the witch with cut off the head and just going all out of the DPs. No good options on the 3rd secondary. I don't like engage at 750 pts.
Each psychic power can only be cast once, so only one prince can have -1 to hit, but it is possible both will have a 3++ with warlord trait / psychic power.
They will shred your nobs but your boys won`t care much about them.
Take big choppas / double saw on the boss nobs, as Rubrics have a 2+ AS against D1 weapons, which can be a pain for your boys. (Plus they will hurt the princes.)
5 Rubrics don`t have that much firepower, but be aware of a strat that lets them double down on bolter shots if they didn`t move.
Buffed by +1 to hit, rerolling 1s (Prince) and +1 to wound (strat) they can dish out 16 shots which will kill about 10 boys / 5 nobs in 24".
Not that much but in a small game this can possibly hurt.
Also the TS might bring warptime (double movement psychic power, possible to combine with advance & charge WL trait). Possible 30-40" charge with a DP here.
Beardedragon wrote: Hey guys. having a friendly match soon against a custodies player, and i intend to bring a Da Boomer, A kannon wagon, a Gorkanaut and an auxillary gargantuan squiggoth with supa kannon (which wont get any klan kulture of course).
the rest is just chaff units to take points etc.
Anyway, i cant figure out if the Gorkanaut, Boomer and kannon wagon benefits the most from being Evil sunz where you throw visions in the smoke on the boomer (or one of the others in case it dies) to make it extra killy with more dakka, or its more beneficial to simply go Bad Moon.
Going evil sunz is risky if you fail your casting, but rewarding by turning at least one of those 3 vehicles in to a murder machine, where as if Bad Moonz just outright buffs all 3 vehicles with rerollings of 1 in the shooting phase. But im terrible with math so i dont know if rerolling 1s for all 3 vehicles in the shooting phase is better than turning 1 vehicle in to a reroll all failed hits and potentially throwing more dakka on it.
I think the sad truth is that the answer is as always: deathskulls
Reasons:
1) deathskull rerolls are per attack sequence and hence the boomer gunwagon benefits twice.
2) as all your platforms offer you a reasonable amount of shots, you may asume to be able to use both rerolls at least halve the times you shoot. In this case the 2 rerolls are just like having +1.5 extra shots. (I have the impression I use both rerolls nearly 75 percent of time, be it only on a big shoota)
Average 2d6 = 7, so you will on average roll one 1 and bad moons reroll 1s gives you like +1 shot
Blast gives you 12 shots for two 1s on average and hence +2 shots.
Vision in the smoke has like a 70 percent chance to be cast on gunwagon or kannonwagon (without modifiers or denies) and less than 30 percent to resolve on gorkanaut.
The benefits are great as you effectively gain
almost +5 shots on average da boomer rolls (+8 if it uses its blast)
more than +3 shots from kannonwagon (+6 on blast)
with visions only one vehicle gains a 50 percent boost while deathskulls rerolls will up the output of all by approximately 20 percent (gorkanaut gains less).
3) deathskulls rerolls work in cc
4) deathskulls give your entire army a 6++
5) all your infantry gains obsec
If you like playing bad moons and its a friendly game with less of a competitive mindset then go for it. I really like them (fluff wise). The one thing that really made them stand out was their shoot twice on infantry strat.
Visions walkers are just cool, but can really fail you. How can custodes deny other than 12" strat or allies?
I'm more and more annoyed by the disparity of culture benefits and stratagem quality, time for a new codex i guess.
By the way: more dakka is just a multiplier of 8/6 instead of dakka dakka's 7/6. You only truely gain from it if there are negative to hit modifiers
⬆️ Great insight! Speaking of Deathskulls are Stormboyz worth taking over Kommandos for any reason with this kultur or in general? They would get obsec obviously with Skulls but they would cost considerably more to field. They probably get shot off anyways like Kommandos but similarly they could score objectives while delivering double killsaws on backfield targets.
Boris420 wrote: ⬆️ Great insight! Speaking of Deathskulls are Stormboyz worth taking over Kommandos for any reason with this kultur or in general? They would get obsec obviously with Skulls but they would cost considerably more to field. They probably get shot off anyways like Kommandos but similarly they could score objectives while delivering double killsaws on backfield targets.
Personally, I feel like that's a no. Kommandos are far cheaper and have almost the same level of mobility thanks to deep striking. Stormboyz with their paper thin armour can only really threaten backfield units if you start investing points into them and then at that point you may as well have just go for a better platform for damage.
Boris420 wrote: ⬆️ Great insight! Speaking of Deathskulls are Stormboyz worth taking over Kommandos for any reason with this kultur or in general? They would get obsec obviously with Skulls but they would cost considerably more to field. They probably get shot off anyways like Kommandos but similarly they could score objectives while delivering double killsaws on backfield targets.
Personally, I feel like that's a no. Kommandos are far cheaper and have almost the same level of mobility thanks to deep striking. Stormboyz with their paper thin armour can only really threaten backfield units if you start investing points into them and then at that point you may as well have just go for a better platform for damage.
I' m not so sure. After DS Kommandos are stucked. Typical situation is, you DS them T3 somewhere to do some VP and than you need to move them to another part of the table. To get Engage for example. Or kill something else. And Stormboyz can do that. I really think about them and want to try them near in the future.
I'm using storm boyz instead of kommandoz, because I lack the models. Their extra movement and FLY really doesn't ever matter.
It's hide or die, once you managed to hide, they are performing actions, hold table quarters or deployment zones and sometimes come out to score or interrupt an objective.
Usually they just die after scoring VP once though - my opponents have figured out that those 5 man squads are the key to me winning games, and there is always a spare gun somewhere to gun them down.
Jidmah wrote: I'm using storm boyz instead of kommandoz, because I lack the models. Their extra movement and FLY really doesn't ever matter.
It's hide or die, once you managed to hide, they are performing actions, hold table quarters or deployment zones and sometimes come out to score or interrupt an objective.
Usually they just die after scoring VP once though - my opponents have figured out that those 5 man squads are the key to me winning games, and there is always a spare gun somewhere to gun them down.
Indeed, my opponents have figured this out long ag haha hah... But still I think stuff like wyverns and whilwinds/Thunder fire canon are really overlooked by those spoiled imperium players. Just one of them are enough to really mess with small scoring units (perhaps not enough to kill the SM one though).
Beardedragon wrote: Hey guys. having a friendly match soon against a custodies player, and i intend to bring a Da Boomer, A kannon wagon, a Gorkanaut and an auxillary gargantuan squiggoth with supa kannon (which wont get any klan kulture of course).
the rest is just chaff units to take points etc.
Anyway, i cant figure out if the Gorkanaut, Boomer and kannon wagon benefits the most from being Evil sunz where you throw visions in the smoke on the boomer (or one of the others in case it dies) to make it extra killy with more dakka, or its more beneficial to simply go Bad Moon.
Going evil sunz is risky if you fail your casting, but rewarding by turning at least one of those 3 vehicles in to a murder machine, where as if Bad Moonz just outright buffs all 3 vehicles with rerollings of 1 in the shooting phase. But im terrible with math so i dont know if rerolling 1s for all 3 vehicles in the shooting phase is better than turning 1 vehicle in to a reroll all failed hits and potentially throwing more dakka on it.
I think the sad truth is that the answer is as always: deathskulls
Reasons:
1) deathskull rerolls are per attack sequence and hence the boomer gunwagon benefits twice.
2) as all your platforms offer you a reasonable amount of shots, you may asume to be able to use both rerolls at least halve the times you shoot. In this case the 2 rerolls are just like having +1.5 extra shots. (I have the impression I use both rerolls nearly 75 percent of time, be it only on a big shoota)
Average 2d6 = 7, so you will on average roll one 1 and bad moons reroll 1s gives you like +1 shot
Blast gives you 12 shots for two 1s on average and hence +2 shots.
Vision in the smoke has like a 70 percent chance to be cast on gunwagon or kannonwagon (without modifiers or denies) and less than 30 percent to resolve on gorkanaut.
The benefits are great as you effectively gain
almost +5 shots on average da boomer rolls (+8 if it uses its blast)
more than +3 shots from kannonwagon (+6 on blast)
with visions only one vehicle gains a 50 percent boost while deathskulls rerolls will up the output of all by approximately 20 percent (gorkanaut gains less).
3) deathskulls rerolls work in cc
4) deathskulls give your entire army a 6++
5) all your infantry gains obsec
If you like playing bad moons and its a friendly game with less of a competitive mindset then go for it. I really like them (fluff wise). The one thing that really made them stand out was their shoot twice on infantry strat.
Visions walkers are just cool, but can really fail you. How can custodes deny other than 12" strat or allies?
I'm more and more annoyed by the disparity of culture benefits and stratagem quality, time for a new codex i guess.
By the way: more dakka is just a multiplier of 8/6 instead of dakka dakka's 7/6. You only truely gain from it if there are negative to hit modifiers
Thanks for your reply. I actually didnt know that deathskulls would allow me to get 1 reroll per sequence for da boomer thats pretty neat.
The reason i thought about bad moonz was that i think it was concluded that 15+ shots made bad moonz better than death skullz, and i felt like da boomer with 4D6 total shots, which im guessing would average 12 shots at least reaches that point somewhat, and the gorkanaut which has way more than 15 shots total would benefit decently from bad moonz. The kannonwagon would benefit but not more than deathskullz though.
It definitely changes some things if da boomer gets a total of 2 rerolls for the hit and wound phase as it happens twice. So i suppose that kicks bad moon out the window, even though im guessing that the gorkanaut would benefit the most from bad moon over deathskullz.
One thing to note is that if the enemy gets close and i manage to put visions on the gorkanaut, then it also rerolls its failed hits in CC. but that too is difficult to achieve with the high casting requirement.
Its so difficult for other klan kultures to compete with deathskullz, they get so much. But I guess it wont be bad moonz, as i have no infantry to really benefit from shooting twice, i got no lootas or tankbustas in the army. Then sure being evil sunz makes me faster so im almost guaranteed to reach the neutral objectives, visions make da boomer in to a destroyer of gods, but the rest of the 2 machines get no benefit at all.
Deathskullz makes them all great, but im not sure i need the obsec, because for infantry i only have room for boyz and some group of grots. the only infantry i otherwise have are my 3 HQ units, so i have to think about this, whether its still better. Since i basically dont get anything from obsec, i do get the 6++ though.
I wanted to use More dakka because there IS a modifier from his vexilla, that means i hit on 6's otherwise. and his units stand close enough that most things get that modifier. Last i used vision on a da boomer with more dakka i ended up with 16 actual hits, that was pretty amazing tho. Destroyed all his bikers barring 1 with half hp.
They don't really need to - marines just advance some bikes into firing position and gun them down, death guard either throws mortar shots at them or turns them in poxwalkers and eldar of any flavor use the anti-infantry guns on their transports. The only army which actually has to dedicate a valuable unit to killing them is daemons because they lack shooting.
Yeah, killing 5 ork dudes is so simple that I'd suggest taking the cheapest option if you have the models to choose. Stormboyz are fine in this regard.
If a shooty unit targets my 5 hidden cheap dudes instead of something more valubale, good for me. If they are ignored they score. Good either ways.
I play on tables which enable the 5 dudes to hide, so no bikes or harlequin transports (CW are impossible to lose against) can easily shoot them, how come you guys lose them to such units ? Don't you have LOS blocking terrain in table corners (and indeed you can't hold objectives with them this way, but that is not what we are susing them for is it ?) like I do -not every corner necesserely, sometimes just two out of four- ?
No, not by default, and I don't think there is a good reason to do so. It only makes some already decent secondary objectives even easier to score, warping the game towards them.
You rarely, if ever can shoot them from the opposite deployment zone or from the table center, but a unit moving 14" from the middle or their own deployment zone or a flyer jumping into obscuring terrain has no issues lining up shots when needed.
Stormboyz are used pretty much by a lot of the recent top tournament lists. So there is definitely something on them.
The question is how to use them? In my opinion, the key is to DS them in T3 when big part of the opponent army should be already down to let them bully his small units in “far” quaters of the board, gainening secondaries etc.
Put them on the table T1 makes them die exactly like you described.
The fact is, the more I play TTS the more games comes in last 2-3 turns in the stage, where there is one or two main battlefronts and a lot of space around. And this empty space generates VP via Engage, Scramblers, Linebreakers etc. + Objectives and who has more small FAST units that are able to bully another such units, those win. In later game, there is less units. All long range anti infantry or indirect fire could be already dead.
And my Kommandos stuck somewhere pretty often. Drop them do get the objective, gain some secondaries and than you need them somewhere else. But you can' t get them there... too slow.
This is the space and use, where such unit could be useful.
The question is - as usually - does it worth the points?
Kommandos vs storm boyz is mostly a choice between slot choice and personal taste (model availability). Storm boyz have the speed advantage at the cost of size (they are harder to hide) and armor save. Kommandos have the advantage when it comes to hunkering down in cover and are easier to hide but slower.
My lists always include lots of buggies, so I don't use the storm boyz as often, don't need the speed. So, I prefer taking the kommandos for extra survivability. If you are taking a slower, infantry heavy list, I can definitely see why you would take storm boyz.
Deathguard were already decent and built for 9th. They just got stacked rules added.
Orks started 9th decent but it’s more to do with mass obj secured infantry. Other then reducing the cost of grots to 4ppm and boyz to 7ppm (which is doubtful to happen) or drastically improving Kff/painboy auras (also doubtful) I’m not exactly sure what they can do.. I wouldn’t mind the 4++ kff relic back..
Making big shootas better is nice and helpful but it won’t turn us into top tier. Even bringing back the super SAG and reducing the SAG cost and double shoot strat won’t be a big difference in 9th. And with the additions of abilities that removing objective secured from troops we are going to be taking a hit soon.
I’d like to see burna boys drastically improved with 12in flamers lower cost and dam 2 melee profiles.
I’d like to see freebooters price drop
I’d like to see both warbikers and nob bikers price drop and have assault 4 dakka guns (x2)
I’d like to see lootas just be a heavy 3 shots if unit has a spanner
I’d like to see grots benefit from clan rules, killakans go to movement 8, 4 base atk, and auto passes morale tests when unit contains 3 or more
I’d like to see deff dreads have 4 base atks Fast moving and/or durable units are what’s winning 9th.
And drop like 200points off the stompa and just make the giggashoota never run out of ammo. Maybe add a plastic belly gun sprue to the old kit as that is a semi decent weapon upgrade.
A new plastic tankbusta/kommando kit with more options would be nice. Tankbusta bombs on kommandos and big choppas/powerklaw/rokkit hammer for the nob. They can actually do a lot here.... like the squig mine from the squig buggy could be a kommando option..
And make all Mek Boy related weapons hit on 4s, like they're doing with the forge world Mek Boy guys.
Gargantuan Squiggoth supa kannon should also hit on 4s, given that its crewed by grots, and Choppas should be a minus 1, Big choppas, minus 2, and then what ever they wanna do with Killsaws/powerklaw is probably gonna be like the powerfist/chainfist.
Nobz should have Obsec as well.
Secondaries related to orks, like make X charges for X points and more interesting over all stratagems that arent so darn situational.
Id also really like our psyker to be able to cast and deny on standard, 2 abilities. Most ork players dont bring more than one psyker so warphead just seem mandatory always. But i guess thats more of a personal wish than a must have when talking changes.
New army around can get extremely good results just because it's the new stuff. It happened in 8th with the drukhari codex, when everybody, including Goonhammer guys, said they were absolute top tiers. They never were, simply people tailored their competitive lists against other factions and weren't prepared to face them. The same could be true for Deathguard, I can't say for sure since I don't have the chance to play at the moment.
Looking at their codex they don't seem superior to SM.
Blackie wrote: New army around can get extremely good results just because it's the new stuff. It happened in 8th with the drukhari codex, when everybody, including Goonhammer guys, said they were absolute top tiers. They never were, simply people tailored their competitive lists against other factions and weren't prepared to face them. The same could be true for Deathguard, I can't say for sure since I don't have the chance to play at the moment.
Looking at their codex they don't seem superior to SM.
Depends what SM flavour. But yes, I see what you mean. I think currently Harlequins successfully fill that "couter meta" role. DG and DA look like they are going to join the "main meta block" with the top SM flavours.
I guess it makes sense that those lists do well? The DG player placing fourth (the one without Mortarion) played something really close to what I played in my last game, and yes that defenitely feels powerful.. I didn't expect Mortarion to do as well as he did, but none of the top placing players used any of the contagions which were identified as "the best" by most DG strategists.
Essentially all of them optimized the overlap between the most powerful combos and did very well because of that. However, I also think that many people who have their target priority messed up vs DG because the DR completely changed what guns are good against which units, some to the total opposite.
So, as an ork player, things I see as really dangerous: - Droning missile. Essentially suicidal drone that flies straight into your army and uses a stratagem to gain the droning contagion (halves movement) from their warlord and a psychic power to boost it to 9" in turn 1 and 12" in turn 2. If you allow it to charge, it can slow down your entire army and also put the -1T on them to improve the DG shooting, as a lot of it is S6/S4 so boyz going from T4 to T3 matters a lot. - Be very vary of the Inexorable Plague fleet. They have stratagem which reduces charges by -2 for 1 CP, which essentially feths up anyone trying to charge from deep strike. - Keep Mortarion busy by feeding him units, kill everything else before you kill him. - Have a plan to handle 2+/4++/3W/T5 terminators, because you are going to see 13+ models in every single game. They are DG's best units, and they outfight almost everything orks have. - DG win by staying alive, sitting on objectives and scoring their secondaries plus while we stand rewarding 5VP for every terminator unit you didn't kill. Kill the stuff you can kill, less units mean less VP for them. If you can wipe out a unit of plague marines or poxwalkers, kill those plague marines and poxwalkers instead of leaving 2 out 5 terminators alive. - 2-3 plague mortars can kill small units of infantry anywhere on the table, no matter how well hidden they are.
Essentially DG force you to play their game, if you can break that choke-hold you win. To me as a DG player, the most dangerous things are guns with good AP and d6 or more damage, the more range the better. Anything that has to come within contagion/charge range to hurt me is no threat at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: Depends what SM flavour. But yes, I see what you mean. I think currently Harlequins successfully fill that "couter meta" role. DG and DA look like they are going to join the "main meta block" with the top SM flavours.
I think DG will definitely kick harlequins out of the top tier. Playing against them feels like running over a clown with kitchen knife with a steam roller.
Jidmah wrote: [\
Essentially DG force you to play their game, if you can break that choke-hold you win. To me as a DG player, the most dangerous things are guns with good AP and d6 or more damage, the more range the better. Anything that has to come within contagion/charge range to hurt me is no threat at all.
Mek guns it is.
I wanted to play them for while we stand, we fight anyway
Edit: in that tourney, apparently 5th was also Death Guard, making them take 4/5 of the top 5. Woof.
Morty is definitely the terror people think he is.
I think morty will sadly get nerfed a bit but sadly he’s not why DG are so great. It’s really thier point efficient durability allowing them to hold objectives.
Like I said I don’t know what GW can do to our codex to make us better at point efficient durability unless it’s reduce grot/boy point cost and/or increase kff/painboy auras.
What I hope for is changes to warbikers, dreads etc to make them more point efficient as those are (along with mega nobs) our more durable units.
There really is no knowing what orks will get, so let's not start whining already.
At the very least we will get an army-wide rule like contagions or doctrines that will increase ork power across the board, improved relics, warlord traits, weapon profiles as well as an update for most units in our codex.
It's also fairly sure that the auto-take stuff we have right now might be taken down a notch - things that come to mind here are the deff skulls culture or smasha guns.
I would like Speed Freekz on Trukks, maybe even on open topped Battlewagons. If Deffkoptas ever get some love with new kits then perhaps a price drop on them would be kool.
I could see Evil Sunz vehicles only getting the extra movement part of the kultur over infantry as a nerf but let's hope not.
I miss getting little bonuses when taking certain units i.e.- 1 Nobz unit as troops when you have a Warboss or having that extra Deff Dread if you took a Big Mek. Warbike HQ's allowing warbikers to be troops etc. Again nice but not necessary.
As far as things I really want is the return of Looted Vehicles in Matched but that ain't gonna happen unless Iron Warriors start getting their Basilisks back...
Yeah no point complaining about our book until we see it. Honestly, based on what we've seen, we will be *very* happy with our new codex.
Will some of our current best stuff get a nerf? Maybe. That's fine, though, as long as we can build lots of cool fun builds. Who wants to run the exact same lists for another 3-4 years.
Lot of things im worried about for our next book but its so up in the air we cant possibly predict it, good or bad.
Theres a lot of trends GW has been following lately that they almost certainly will apply to orks...that kinda shouldnt apply to orks. Thats the core potential issue, and until we see the codex we cant possibly know.
Pre-emptively complaining is pretty silly.
tulun wrote: Will some of our current best stuff get a nerf? Maybe. That's fine, though, as long as we can build lots of cool fun builds. Who wants to run the exact same lists for another 3-4 years.
What I was referring to is that pretty much all of the combos and over-the-curve stuff DG had either got hit with a nerf bat or were removed. In return, everything else was raised to a similar level, leaving DG as a whole much more powerful, despite the stars of 8th being much weaker than before.
There are like 3 or 4 overarching rules I'd like Orks to get in the new 'dex. Some of these are big improvements and might require them to adjust points, which is fine. I think they'd primarily enhance flavour and a more fun playstyle.
1, Dakkadakkadakka give extra hits and not hit rolls on unmodified 6's.
- Pretty decent power upgrade but way faster especially if you run a lot of biker hordes like me or maybe shoota boyz or whatever your army may look like. DDD feels pretty weak right now and this is such a simple fix.
2, All ork vehicles get ramshackle.
- Every single vehicle in the book (the mek gunz, the buggies, deffkoptas even the freakin' stompa gets it). It's a fun durability buff which does slow the game down a little bit but not enough worth mentioning IMO. Ork vehicles aren't mass produced on the line and this represents that. Has the added benefit of people might be forced to overkill your vehicles since even a single 6 could throw off their math.
3, Grots get their grot mobs rules.
- I mean come one, I LOVE grots, but even I only tried to make an all grot army once. It's not feasible so just give them a mini-kultur (wasting an entire detachment for better mek gunz also feels steep in cost). Maybe all they get is reroll 1's to hit, fine whatever. Just give them something.
4, All orks improve their AP by 1 on the charge, an add-on to the 'ere we go rule.
- Tired of your choppas doing nothing? This'd change that in a hurry. It's an improvement most felt by the stuff that needs it, boyz and bikes and it feels super thematic IMO. At least then melee orks would be really scary as a first strike army and it'd create some interesting meta game thinking for your opponents about how to keep denying those greenskinz to start sprinting up on them.
Other quick hits:
- Make some of the other specialist mobs unit upgrades for points instead. Like you can make a skrapjet a "boomboy" for 10 points etc.
- The mek speshul gets +1 to hit and wound against infantry.
- Power stabbas go to AP-4
- Up the cost of power klaws (5,10 points?) and make them damage d6 instead
- Big shootas go to AP-1
- Supa shootas go to AP-2
- Make the burna d3 12" S5 AP1 D1
- Make the zzap gun auto-hit
The Stompa:
- Remove one of its brackets, we're already paying an insane premium for all those wounds. No need to double nerf that with an extra bracket.
- All of the guns are now assault (or count as assault)
- It has a base WS of 2+
- The Supa-gatler goes to damage 2
- Drop it to like 750 and see how that does.
PiñaColada wrote: 4, All orks improve their AP by 1 on the charge, an add-on to the 'ere we go rule.
- Tired of your choppas doing nothing? This'd change that in a hurry. It's an improvement most felt by the stuff that needs it, boyz and bikes and it feels super thematic IMO. At least then melee orks would be really scary as a first strike army and it'd create some interesting meta game thinking for your opponents about how to keep denying those greenskinz to start sprinting up on them.
Other quick hits:
- Make some of the other specialist mobs unit upgrades for points instead. Like you can make a skrapjet a "boomboy" for 10 points etc.
- The mek speshul gets +1 to hit and wound against infantry.
- Power stabbas go to AP-4
- Up the cost of power klaws (5,10 points?) and make them damage d6 instead
- Big shootas go to AP-1
- Supa shootas go to AP-2
- Make the burna d3 12" S5 AP1 D1
- Make the zzap gun auto-hit
Assuming Orks get the same treatment as DG/Space Marines (one can dream ), we can look forward to:
- Choppa getting AP-1, like plague knives and chainswords
- Big shootas getting 2D (heavy bolter/splinter rifle)
- Power stabbas +1S (power swords/daemon blades/baleswords)
- Burna/skorcha/killa jet - skorcha/burna exhaust to 12", no ap change
- Killa jet - melta to d6 damage+2 in half range
- PK to AP-3/2 damage
- Killsaw to d3 damage, 3 damage vs vehicles
- Most d3 weapons (snagga klaw, rokkit pistols, tellyporta blasta, etc) go to flat 2 damage. They curb d3 on weapons wherever possible, probably to speed up rolling.
- Some of the d6 weapons representing heavy hitting anti-tank might go to 3+d3. Klaw of mork/gork or the wazzbom mega cannons feel like good candidates for this, maybe also SAGs or traktor kannons. KMB or smashas definitely not.
Well, a lot of what you're saying makes sense from a 9th game design aspect point of view. Stuff going from d3 to flat 2 etc.
But I will say that I'm not really keen on too many ork weapons needing to be some sort of direct parity with the various flavours of astartes weapons. The problem of course is that almost all of the 9th codices have been some sort of power armour (I don't really know necrons' statlines at all) so those become the logical comparisons.
Take the power stabba, in 8th it was just a worse power sword, trading 1 AP for a point discount. Now in 9th it's straight up terrible of course, an AP-2 weapon that costs the same as an SM power sword with +1S AP-3? They'll fix it one way or another but I don't love the idea that it's simply going to be turned into a normal power sword. Just give it a unique statline, it's not a sword, it's a friggin' jackhammer bolted onto an arm for gork's sake.
One thing 9th codices have managed well (IMO) so far at least is giving the factions some of their fluff back onto the tabletop in terms of how rules work. All the whimsical and or frightening but low/weirdly high tech guns orks have shouldn't just be renamed heavy bolters and renamed power swords. I understand that it's quite likely that's what they're going to end up as anyways but there's no reason a power klaw can't be d6 damage. An ork warboss used to oneshot tanks with those back in the day, make them really strong and more expensive so orks can actually hit hard enough to be the glasshammers everyone else already think they are.
PiñaColada wrote: There are like 3 or 4 overarching rules I'd like Orks to get in the new 'dex. Some of these are big improvements and might require them to adjust points, which is fine. I think they'd primarily enhance flavour and a more fun playstyle.
1, Dakkadakkadakka give extra hits and not hit rolls on unmodified 6's.
- Pretty decent power upgrade but way faster especially if you run a lot of biker hordes like me or maybe shoota boyz or whatever your army may look like. DDD feels pretty weak right now and this is such a simple fix.
2, All ork vehicles get ramshackle.
- Every single vehicle in the book (the mek gunz, the buggies, deffkoptas even the freakin' stompa gets it). It's a fun durability buff which does slow the game down a little bit but not enough worth mentioning IMO. Ork vehicles aren't mass produced on the line and this represents that. Has the added benefit of people might be forced to overkill your vehicles since even a single 6 could throw off their math.
3, Grots get their grot mobs rules.
- I mean come one, I LOVE grots, but even I only tried to make an all grot army once. It's not feasible so just give them a mini-kultur (wasting an entire detachment for better mek gunz also feels steep in cost). Maybe all they get is reroll 1's to hit, fine whatever. Just give them something.
4, All orks improve their AP by 1 on the charge, an add-on to the 'ere we go rule.
- Tired of your choppas doing nothing? This'd change that in a hurry. It's an improvement most felt by the stuff that needs it, boyz and bikes and it feels super thematic IMO. At least then melee orks would be really scary as a first strike army and it'd create some interesting meta game thinking for your opponents about how to keep denying those greenskinz to start sprinting up on them.
Other quick hits:
- Make some of the other specialist mobs unit upgrades for points instead. Like you can make a skrapjet a "boomboy" for 10 points etc.
- The mek speshul gets +1 to hit and wound against infantry.
- Power stabbas go to AP-4
- Up the cost of power klaws (5,10 points?) and make them damage d6 instead
- Big shootas go to AP-1
- Supa shootas go to AP-2
- Make the burna d3 12" S5 AP1 D1
- Make the zzap gun auto-hit
The Stompa:
- Remove one of its brackets, we're already paying an insane premium for all those wounds. No need to double nerf that with an extra bracket.
- All of the guns are now assault (or count as assault)
- It has a base WS of 2+
- The Supa-gatler goes to damage 2
- Drop it to like 750 and see how that does.
I agreed with everything up until the last section hahaha
Looking at Heavy Bolters and now Splinter Cannons (which took quite a different turn than I was expecting), I can see Big Shootas just being an Orks Heavy Bolter. They kind of were until 8th and more so in 9th edition. Previously a HB was Str 5 AP4 Heavy 3, a Big Shoota was Str 5 AP5 Assault 3, quite identical until firing at units with a 4+ save like Fire Warriors, 'Ard Boys, Skitarii and Scions. That changed when AP4 gave you -1AP and AP5 and 6 translated into AP-. Now the Splinter Cannon that was Rapid Fire 3 with no AP and Damage 1 gets made into Heavy 3 AP1 and Damage 2 it seems like a start of a trend for all these same genre of weapon.
That would then make the Supa Shoota Str 6 AP1 Damage 2, which honestly is alright. The Dakkajet was always our dog fighter and it was alright at it before 8th with most planes (except Storm Ravens) having pretty bad AV of 10 or 11. With the rate of fire a Dakkajet put out and planes only having 2-3 Hull Points, youd see the Dakkajet downing other planes. Now in this edition thats not a thing, the Dakkajet is more a ground support fighter. With Damage 2 it will really help it fight off other light vehicles and planes, then when it turns it attention on infantry, it would even be able to threaten Primaris equivalents.
Powerklaws being Damage D6? Thats a bit much! Its the Orky version of a Powerfist so it should resemble those changes. Id love the Powerklaw to be different, but its such an iconic and common combat weapon that any changes to it could see its price sky rocket or fall out of favour. Currently its obsolete due to the Killsaw which really shouldnt be the same cost as a Powerklaw.
Burnas should just be Flamers with a power weapon close combat weapon mode, end of. Why GW thought to change it from 7th to 8th who knows, its not like there arent other units in 40k that cant take mass Flamers (Agressors, Crisis, Rubrics, Scions/Guard, Chaos Terminators with Combi-Flamers, etc). Burnas are fragile as they come, and kind of rely on transports to get within burning range, and thats all with no AP. Not exactly meta breaking to have them with 12" range and D6 shots.
Power Stabbas AP4? What warrants this? From reading Purging of Kallidus and other Orky novels, Nobs with Power Weapons tend to be just looted Power Axes or Choppas with some Mek gubbins. They should be more akin to a Power Axe, granted that would step on the toes of the Big Choppa. Str+2 AP2 Damage 1. Big Choppas could be Str+3 AP1 Damage 2 so that they can better tackle T4 - 7 units cheaply that doesnt require mass Klaws/Saws or they could have some sort of spill over mechanic where excess wounds pass over.
Why would a Stompa need Assault Weapons? Stompas need Power Fields back or some sort of damage reduction, they should also be able to yano... STOMP!!!! Make it in addition to its standard Mega Choppa attacks. The Blitza-Gatler should just be standard (as with a lot of Kustom Jobs in my opinion). And with a change to Big Shootas, Clans and other things, the Stompa might finally be OK. I dont want it to be cheap, the Tau'nar is cheap when it shouldnt be. Let the Stompa be the king of its weight class, but have the pts to match that. I dont want to see every list have a stompa in like a Castellan because its too good and cheap then watch it get nerfed to the stratosphere. Make it good and Orky, but respectful with its cost.
Yeah the punishment from shooting for orks tends to make me want to run the (very boring, imo) green tide list. It would be nice to see a codex that allows for other lists to be played. Which, from my limited understanding of the new 9th Codex's ends up happening. (that is, we see more varied lists as possible).
I agreed with everything up until the last section hahaha
-SNIP-
Big shootas being an equivalent of heavy bolters is certainly apt, but I doubt they'll get both AP-1 and D2. So it's most likely one or the other I'd say, I personally would prefer AP-1 but either is fine I guess. A similar thing with is the case with the supa shoota, right now it's bad for 10 points so either buff the AP or damage. In fact I'd probably rather have that whatever the buff big shootas get, supa shootas get the other one. Meaning big shootas get S5 AP-1 D1 and supa shootas get S6 AP-1 D2. Both of those guns need something but I think that there's more than one right answer there.
I understand that in all likelihood the powerklaw will end up being the exact same statline as a powerfist but I'll maintain that it'll be a hell of a lot more fun if they just up the points and damage. The killsaw is so similar (even if they change that to the new chainfist statline) that a bit more variance in the weapon profiles would make for more interesting options. That's sort of the argument for me calling for AP-4 power stabbas, on the tabletop they're represented by a nob punching you with an active jackhammer. AP-4 doesn't seem crazy considering that. Game mechanically it really is just a powersword where instead of getting +1S in addition to a bunch of AP you just get a bit more AP. It would also slot in a way with weapon profiles to represent a more interesting diversity. For the sake of argument let's say that powerklaws and killsaws just get the SM statlines, then we end up with:
S5 AP-4 D1 - Power stabba
S7 AP-1 D2 - Big Choppa
S10 AP-3 D2 - Powerklaw
S10 AP-4 Dd3 - Killsaw
I could potentially see the Big Choppas go to AP-2 (I doubt they get buffed in S as 7 to 8 is a huge jump and makes the PK and saw a little less attractive). But nobz are already S5 which means a really high AP weapon is a bit more attractive if your meta is just a bunch of dreadnoughts and/or death guard. On nobz on warbikes you could even buff them to S6 if needed. Is it a huge difference and a cryin' shame if it ends up being just an updated powersword? No, those are solid but it's just a bit boring.
Could burnas end up with just normal d6 shot flamers? Yes, it's probably even likely but we have enough S4 AP- shots so I'd much rather seem them being d3 shot skorchas instead.
I want a stompa to be able to advance and fire its guns so a T2 charge (into something that's not just chaff) is somewhat realistic. I agree that a stompa shouldn't be the bane of the competitive meta a lá the early days castellan, but I do want it to be (at least somewhat) viable. In my eyes, the way to do that is try to make it more balanced between shooting and CC. Buff its shooting too much and if it rolls hot it'll just wipe whole armies. Make 'em too weak and we land right back at where we are now. If you can advance and fire all your guns at 6's T1 just to get a few extra inches up the board then that might be a worthwhile trade-off (I'm guessing that "more dakka" might not be around in the 9th dex or just be <core> ). A stompa that's quickly rampaging up the table is a far bigger threat and tougher to ignore rather than something that mostly just fires from your backlines.
DDD on 5's should be limited to the stratagem, not a stock thing.
An army shouldnt automatically ignore a major aspect of the game. Thats why harlies are such a thorn right now, they flatout ignore terrain and it causes all sorts of problems. Their army technically sucks but a smart harly player wont give you the chance to do anything until they charge you or fire point-blank. If DDD was stock on a 5+ orks would be immune to negatives to hit in shooting (except grots and Sparkly Bitz mork). That makes no sense and even FURTHER invalidates Freebootaz bonus
I am totally on board with the auto-hit on a 6 though rather than roll an additional die. Both because it just takes forever when boyz shoot 60 shoota shots, fish out any rerolls if badmoonz, then fish out the 6's to roll more, and then fish out more 1s to reroll. Its literally the reason i stopped playing the kulture my army is painted as, it simply takes too long for little gain. Its kinda dumb that all the BS3+ factions with exploding attacks get auto-hits, but the BS5+ gets extra hit rolls.
I agreed with everything up until the last section hahaha
SNIP SNIP.
If a Splinter Cannon can get -1AP and Damage 2 why cant a Big Shoota. A Splinter Cannon was so much different from a Heavy Bolter in every aspect that it was quite a shock. Supa Shootas just dont know what they want to be, Str 6 doesnt do you much favours in 9th except in a few cases like vs T3 and T5. Id prefer Supa Shootas to be rapid firing Autocannons, chucking insane amounts of high calibre shots down range that things just get shredded.
Is the harpoon arm from the Nobs kit actually the Power Stabba? To me it always felt like a crude slugga a Mek bodged up, due to it having a cable spoil attached to the bolt.
I also dont think Str 8 is crazy for Nobz with Big Choppas. The game is swimming in +1 to wound and -1 to wound, rerolls, damage reductions and feel no pain equivalents. Str 8 Nobz wouldnt break the game in any way, you already pay through the teef for Nobz already and they arent melee supremacy units like they used to be in editions past. If a Repentia with a smaller Eviscerator gets x2 Str, AP2 Damage 2 with rerolls to hit then why cant a Nob get +3 Str from an even bigger chainsword. Nob Bikers can all ready get to that Str with a strat and that isnt taking the meta to town.
Skorchas are already quite rare so stepping on their toes seems like a bad move balance wise. Burnas should really just be 12" D6 shots. Let them fire in combat like pistols too. Str 5 AP1 will just see them become even more expensive... Compare a Burnaboy to a Sterylizor, might be an 8pt difference, but what a difference there is. 9D6 Str 4 AP1 ignoring cover hits on a quick flying unit that can deepstrike/redeploy with alright melee potential. Keep Burnas and Skorchas distinct, just bring them in line with other Flamers and for the love of Gork make Kombi-Skorchas and Regular Skorchas cheaper.
Is it even worthy firing a Stompa at a -1 to hit just to get a couple inches more out of it not even guaranting a charge from it? Id rather the Stompa shoot better at closer range like we see with the Slug Gubbins Deffstorm Megashoota and Boomstikks. Then let what its namesake implies, STOMP. An Imperial Knight can stomp, why cant a Stompa (or Squiggoth for that matter). It should be impactful, being nearly half your army youd expect it to make some returns, it doesnt even come close to being ok as it now. I sold my Stompas years ago as much as it pains me. Its the largest 40k model ouside of FW with one of the littlest impacts.A tiny Redemptor a 1/5 of its cost can rip it a new one in melee, who thought that was a fun idea at GW....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: I honestly hope we get a rule that unmodified shooting attacks of 5 always hit, regardless of modifiers.
Right now, Orks are far too punished by the excess of negative hit modifiers handed out. Even terrain can gimp our shooting phase 50%.
Because the jump between 5s -> 6s is a 50% loss of efficiency, I hope they give Orks some natural protection against it.
Especially now 6s always hit is a core mechanic for everyone and Orks have pretty limited access to rerolls as it is. I dont know of many units that are BS6 that a -1 to hit would warrant a core rule like that being a thing, but it takes more from DDD when it already wasnt the best of rules. Orks ignoring negatives to hit and 6s explode into additional hits I think is a welcome change, nothing too strong.
DG already ignore negative modifiers to movement and charges, any modifiers to attrition tests plus then their -1 Damage too. I doesnt really break the realms of meta if DDD just flat out ignored negatives to hit and got extra hits on 6s. Its thematic and makes you feel like Orks truly are drowning the opposition in shots even if the guns might only have 2 or 3 shots, DDD represents the sheer volume of shots going a stray that might actually hit too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: DDD on 5's should be limited to the stratagem, not a stock thing.
An army shouldnt automatically ignore a major aspect of the game. Thats why harlies are such a thorn right now, they flatout ignore terrain and it causes all sorts of problems. Their army technically sucks but a smart harly player wont give you the chance to do anything until they charge you or fire point-blank.
If DDD was stock on a 5+ orks would be immune to negatives to hit in shooting (except grots and Sparkly Bitz mork). That makes no sense and even FURTHER invalidates Freebootaz bonus
I am totally on board with the auto-hit on a 6 though rather than roll an additional die. Both because it just takes forever when boyz shoot 60 shoota shots, fish out any rerolls if badmoonz, then fish out the 6's to roll more, and then fish out more 1s to reroll. Its literally the reason i stopped playing the kulture my army is painted as, it simply takes too long for little gain.
Its kinda dumb that all the BS3+ factions with exploding attacks get auto-hits, but the BS5+ gets extra hit rolls.
Its becoming a growing trend that new 9th armies ignore more and more rules. Ignoring modifiers to attrition or flat out auto passing it, negative modifiers to movement, permanent Transhuman, turning off Obsec/auras/actions. As things progress we can see this becoming more and more commonplace that it becomes normal. Is that good for the game? No. But you also dont want to be the Faction that is left out.
On a side note to the wishlisting atm, I'm planning to do a friendly game with my friend who is doing a rhino rush world eater list. I'm responding in kind with a mass meganob "deff wing" style list, using battlewagons and the like alongside 30 mega nobz. Do you think it's worth to include a Nob with WAAAGH! banner when it's mainly Meganobz in my list? I find their cost at 85 points (more expensive than a warboss for some reason) prohibitive and I'm not sure if its worth including when I think only 1 or 2 units may be the only ones benefiting from his aura.
tulun wrote: I honestly hope we get a rule that unmodified shooting attacks of 5 always hit, regardless of modifiers.
Right now, Orks are far too punished by the excess of negative hit modifiers handed out. Even terrain can gimp our shooting phase 50%.
Because the jump between 5s -> 6s is a 50% loss of efficiency, I hope they give Orks some natural protection against it.
Especially now 6s always hit is a core mechanic for everyone and Orks have pretty limited access to rerolls as it is. I dont know of many units that are BS6 that a -1 to hit would warrant a core rule like that being a thing, but it takes more from DDD when it already wasnt the best of rules. Orks ignoring negatives to hit and 6s explode into additional hits I think is a welcome change, nothing too strong.
DG already ignore negative modifiers to movement and charges, any modifiers to attrition tests plus then their -1 Damage too. I doesnt really break the realms of meta if DDD just flat out ignored negatives to hit and got extra hits on 6s. Its thematic and makes you feel like Orks truly are drowning the opposition in shots even if the guns might only have 2 or 3 shots, DDD represents the sheer volume of shots going a stray that might actually hit too.
Honestly, it will also make it easier to balance Ork shooting, too.
Trivially halving our shooting means it has to be really cheap or we have to have an absurd number of shots, either of which is probably going to be problematic.
Hey all, would KFF's be worth it for protecting an army composed of nothing but units embarked in trukks? I know it wouldn't be "top tier" by any means but I am planning on running a 2,000 pt army with 11 trukks.
Boris420 wrote: Hey all, would KFF's be worth it for protecting an army composed of nothing but units embarked in trukks? I know it wouldn't be "top tier" by any means but I am planning on running a 2,000 pt army with 11 trukks.
Depends on your meta and what klan you're running. If it's not deffskullz, the 5++ save is probably worth it.
Grimskul wrote: On a side note to the wishlisting atm, I'm planning to do a friendly game with my friend who is doing a rhino rush world eater list. I'm responding in kind with a mass meganob "deff wing" style list, using battlewagons and the like alongside 30 mega nobz. Do you think it's worth to include a Nob with WAAAGH! banner when it's mainly Meganobz in my list? I find their cost at 85 points (more expensive than a warboss for some reason) prohibitive and I'm not sure if its worth including when I think only 1 or 2 units may be the only ones benefiting from his aura.
Meganobz are great. How do you want to move them around the table?
What will be the shooting support?
Banner is mehh as you said.
deffrekka wrote: If a Splinter Cannon can get -1AP and Damage 2 why cant a Big Shoota. A Splinter Cannon was so much different from a Heavy Bolter in every aspect that it was quite a shock. Supa Shootas just dont know what they want to be, Str 6 doesnt do you much favours in 9th except in a few cases like vs T3 and T5. Id prefer Supa Shootas to be rapid firing Autocannons, chucking insane amounts of high calibre shots down range that things just get shredded. [...]
See, I'm worried GW is going to look at the statline: Assault 3 36" S5 AP-1 D2 and think it's a 10 point gun. It certainly would be for Space Marines and maybe even IG, but not for a BS5+ army. It would almost bring us back to where we are right now, where big shootas are just a liability due to being too expensive. If the statline ends up being either S5 AP-0 D2 or S5 AP-1 D1 then it would be priced at 5 points almost certainly, where it actually ends up being a pretty interesting weapon IMO.
deffrekka wrote: Is it even worthy firing a Stompa at a -1 to hit just to get a couple inches more out of it not even guaranting a charge from it? [...]
I'd certainly like to have the option. If you have no good targets or the only good targets are already -1 to hit then why not?
I reckon getting -1AP for choppers, maybe some more AP on a few other weapons, and then Orks getting +1S on the charge would be pretty cool.
DDD going to extra hits on 6’s instead of hit rolls would also be great. Would be so much faster and may make Ork shooting worth rolling for.
Grots getting the Grot protection strat built in could be nice, and/or maybe some kind of invuln save or being harder to hit to represent them being slippery little gits could be interesting.
WAAAGH! being an army wide rule, and expanded into something interesting, could be very cool and would make a lot of sense.
I want them to do something with Nobz too. They seem to be in a strange spot and I’d like to use them! Just don’t really know what.
I like the idea of Ramshackle being on every vehicle, would be a nice little bonus to make them all a little more survivable.
Tiberius501 wrote: I reckon getting -1AP for choppers, maybe some more AP on a few other weapons, and then Orks getting +1S on the charge would be pretty cool.
DDD going to extra hits on 6’s instead of hit rolls would also be great. Would be so much faster and may make Ork shooting worth rolling for.
Grots getting the Grot protection strat built in could be nice, and/or maybe some kind of invuln save or being harder to hit to represent them being slippery little gits could be interesting.
WAAAGH! being an army wide rule, and expanded into something interesting, could be very cool and would make a lot of sense.
I want them to do something with Nobz too. They seem to be in a strange spot and I’d like to use them! Just don’t really know what.
I like the idea of Ramshackle being on every vehicle, would be a nice little bonus to make them all a little more survivable.
Yeah back when orks were S3 they had furious charge, which gave them +1 S on the charge (and initiative but initiative is gone now). I could see that, definitely !
A powerklaw would be a powerfist, so AP-3 and 2 damage. Great alround weapon, though rarely used by marines because they have better stuff or lack the number of attacks to make them work.
A killsaw would be a chainfist, so AP-4 and d3 damage that increases to 3 damage against vehicles.
Killsaws might also become something completely different, as they aren't a 1:1 match to chainfists.
Grimskul wrote: On a side note to the wishlisting atm, I'm planning to do a friendly game with my friend who is doing a rhino rush world eater list. I'm responding in kind with a mass meganob "deff wing" style list, using battlewagons and the like alongside 30 mega nobz. Do you think it's worth to include a Nob with WAAAGH! banner when it's mainly Meganobz in my list? I find their cost at 85 points (more expensive than a warboss for some reason) prohibitive and I'm not sure if its worth including when I think only 1 or 2 units may be the only ones benefiting from his aura.
Meganobz are great. How do you want to move them around the table? What will be the shooting support? Banner is mehh as you said.
Not much shooting support beyond a kill kannon since it's a pretty casual game, I'm going all in on 2 battlewagons with deff rollas, a bonebreaka, a big trakk, 10 grots, a weirdboy and the warboss with killa klaw/biggest boss upgrade. The meganobz units comprise of two units of 10 (they go into the 2 battlewagons) and two units of 5 go into the bonebreaka and the big trakk respectively.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: A powerklaw would be a powerfist, so AP-3 and 2 damage. Great alround weapon, though rarely used by marines because they have better stuff or lack the number of attacks to make them work. A killsaw would be a chainfist, so AP-4 and d3 damage that increases to 3 damage against vehicles.
Killsaws might also become something completely different, as they aren't a 1:1 match to chainfists.
Yeah, those are the most likely changes that will happen, though personally I'd prefer if it was changed to the following:
Power Klaws: S:x2 AP:-3 Damage: 3, -1 to hit penalty to melee attacks made with this weapon
Killsaw: S: +2 AP:-4 D:2, each time you make an attack with this weapon, make an additional attack
This way Killsaws are pretty much super elite infantry mulchers, while the PK maintains its previous role as a big tank or monster buster in CC, and it still has the advantage of wounding most multi-wound targets on 2's instead of 3's like the Killsaws do.
These new stats would also result in slight points hikes for both of these weapons of course.
Tomsug wrote: Yeah, meltas with miracle dices makes me think about 3 SAGs to outshooot them.
And the Zephyrins - jetpacks infantry was also super usefull.
So I like Liam Hacket list with 3x stormboyz and 3x SAG even more....
If they actually fix SAG's than maybe, but at the moment a SAG is just...garbage. In no way, shape or form is a D6 shot BS5+ S2D6 weapon worth 120pts. You could take 3 Smasha gunz for the same price which are 3D3 shots and are significantly more durable spread out over 3 units.
Vineheart01 wrote: DDD on 5's should be limited to the stratagem, not a stock thing.
An army shouldnt automatically ignore a major aspect of the game. Thats why harlies are such a thorn right now, they flatout ignore terrain and it causes all sorts of problems. Their army technically sucks but a smart harly player wont give you the chance to do anything until they charge you or fire point-blank.
If DDD was stock on a 5+ orks would be immune to negatives to hit in shooting (except grots and Sparkly Bitz mork). That makes no sense and even FURTHER invalidates Freebootaz bonus
I agree for armies that are already good at shooting, but -1 to hit is everywhere and invalidates 50% of our armies shooting. So if you take a non-Melee army as an ork player you already lost. I like the idea of DDD meaning we always hit on 5s, actually makes our assault weapons worth a bit more as well, and when teamed with the stratagem I would assuming all 5s and 6s explode which gives us even more extra hits. It would likely make gunline orkz possible again.
See, I'm worried GW is going to look at the statline: Assault 3 36" S5 AP-1 D2 and think it's a 10 point gun. It certainly would be for Space Marines and maybe even IG, but not for a BS5+ army. It would almost bring us back to where we are right now, where big shootas are just a liability due to being too expensive. If the statline ends up being either S5 AP-0 D2 or S5 AP-1 D1 then it would be priced at 5 points almost certainly, where it actually ends up being a pretty interesting weapon IMO.
This is a very good point and one that I share the worry about. GW has a knack for looking at Ork weapons and pricing them according to what they would be if they were used by Space Marines. Big shoota's are garbage right now and even buffed they will be taken only on units that HAVE to take them, if you up their price point to 10pts, you are killing a lot of units, imagine a scrapjet costing upwards of 20pts more now just to have a slight boost to its big shootas. Look at Rokkitz, GW massively over prices them on most units, hell if they were so good you would see hordes taking 3 of them in each boyz mob. You dont, want to know why? Because 3 rokkitz in an infantry unit = 1 hit per turn for the low low price of 30pts. A SM player can take 2 Missile launchers for the same price(spread across 2 troops choices mind you) and they hit 1.33 of the time and are seen as too expensive and aren't taken often.
A rokkit should be a 5pt upgrade on boyz and a big shoota BUFFED should be 5pts. But I fear they won't be.
There is nothing weird about the list. Just the 8th vibe is pretty interesting and different little bit from what we saw here recently. And I have no idea how does he use 18 SMG with 9th ed terrain...
SemperMortis - I dont see the SAG like a must take unit, but there is significant difference between SMG and SAG, that is missing in your comparison:
0) SAG can be positioned. SMG just sits and hopes.
1) SAG can climb up the building and can see something.
2) ... while sitting infantry in basement can protect him via Look out Sir
3) SAG can be transported
4) SAG can be Da Jumped
I' ve played with SMG or generaly Mek Gunz a lot in early 9th and try to make them work. So I feel to be an “expert” in what doesn' t work In 8th, gunz cannot move at all. In 9th, they can a bit, but the game is much more about positions due the terrain and missions changes. So the ability to get to better position gives some adventage to SAG over SMG.
However, both are suboptimal imho and discussion about “what is better” is little bit pointles thanks the different role too.
Tomsug wrote: There is nothing weird about the list. Just the 8th vibe is pretty interesting and different little bit from what we saw here recently. And I have no idea how does he use 18 SMG with 9th ed terrain...
SemperMortis - I dont see the SAG like a must take unit, but there is significant difference between SMG and SAG, that is missing in your comparison:
However, both are suboptimal imho and discussion about “what is better” is little bit pointles thanks the different role too.
If both are suboptimal then how do you explain this guy getting 1st place ? Was he facing weak armies ? He didn’t play any of the current armies which everyone fear ATM, I must say. Orks druk and what we can assume to be ultra Smurf’s is kind of not that scary when you can face death guard harlequins etc.
I think Smashas are good, but the SAG is not (just my opinion). I also think evil sunz don’t hit hard enough, though they do make da Jump and the green tide strat more scary than other klans.
But hey the guy tabled all three opponents so he had to be doing something right. On a table without much terrain 18 Smashas protected by 120 boyz is really good, as long as you don’t get the quater table deployment hah hah. Else you will be paying a lot of cp to put stuff in reserve
Tomsug wrote: There is nothing weird about the list. Just the 8th vibe is pretty interesting and different little bit from what we saw here recently. And I have no idea how does he use 18 SMG with 9th ed terrain...
SemperMortis - I dont see the SAG like a must take unit, but there is significant difference between SMG and SAG, that is missing in your comparison:
However, both are suboptimal imho and discussion about “what is better” is little bit pointles thanks the different role too.
If both are suboptimal then how do you explain this guy getting 1st place ? Was he facing weak armies ?
Federico Fellini said, that you get the best movie by cutting out the best scenes. You can' t create the great army just using the best units.
This guy massed the SMGs and succed. Liam Hacket massed the SAGs and succed. That' s what I like on orks now, so many options.
I think Smashas are good, but the SAG is not (just my opinion). I also think evil sunz don’t hit hard enough, though they do make da Jump and the green tide strat more scary than other klans.
But hey the guy tabled all three opponents so he had to be doing something right. On a table without much terrain 18 Smashas protected by 120 boyz is really good, as long as you don’t get the quater table deployment hah hah. Else you will be paying a lot of cp to put stuff in reserve
Tomsug wrote: There is nothing weird about the list. Just the 8th vibe is pretty interesting and different little bit from what we saw here recently. And I have no idea how does he use 18 SMG with 9th ed terrain...
SemperMortis - I dont see the SAG like a must take unit, but there is significant difference between SMG and SAG, that is missing in your comparison:
0) SAG can be positioned. SMG just sits and hopes.
1) SAG can climb up the building and can see something.
2) ... while sitting infantry in basement can protect him via Look out Sir
3) SAG can be transported
4) SAG can be Da Jumped
I' ve played with SMG or generaly Mek Gunz a lot in early 9th and try to make them work. So I feel to be an “expert” in what doesn' t work In 8th, gunz cannot move at all. In 9th, they can a bit, but the game is much more about positions due the terrain and missions changes. So the ability to get to better position gives some adventage to SAG over SMG.
However, both are suboptimal imho and discussion about “what is better” is little bit pointles thanks the different role too.
Smasha gunz can move very little, true, but SAG are heavy weapons on infantry dudes. If they move they hit on 6s. That's also something to consider.
I've seen a lot of tournaments using not so much terrain, 20-25% of the board typically. To me it's no surprise that 18 smasha gunz are able to deal massive amount of damage.
Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)
addnid wrote: Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)
What? According to battlescribe and wahapedia, Smasha Gunz ARE blast?
i could be wrong but.. thats what it says. I know neither is official data and they make mistakes, but rather often they are not wrong.
SAG + move + More Dakka = problem solved. But yes, that ' s an issue. But if you put him on the top of the building, you don' t have to move him anymore.
Yeah, I guess this 18 SMG 8th feeling could be caused by the 8th ed terrain common in the area..
If SMG shoots in CC, it means, some dudes came to your deploy and taking your objectives. And it' s blast anyway....
But really - after first couple of games in 9th, I was amazed by SMG on the new tables, because thanks smaller tables, there were nowhere to hide. Worked great. Until we found how 9th ed table should looks like. Than it was less fun.
What is great about SMG is that they can screen your deploy very well. Until you face the opponent with less than 9” deepstrike...
Later, most of the game 50% of SMGs on the table was either unable to fire at all or unable to fire to the right target or without -1 to hit. In later turns, it was even worse...
addnid wrote: Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)
What? According to battlescribe and wahapedia, Smasha Gunz ARE blast?
i could be wrong but.. thats what it says. I know neither is official data and they make mistakes, but rather often they are not wrong.
Smasha gun is on the list for the blast update, just double-checked with the actual book.
The only mek gun that can shoot into combat is the traktor cannon.
So what next? This time I focus little bit more on fun during play and modeling. I have 2 super competitive lists already and these are too strong in my beerhammer group already....
.
That´s 9th strategy winning over someone playing 8th by the sound of it.
Make it in addition to its standard Mega Choppa attacks. The Blitza-Gatler should just be standard (as with a lot of Kustom Jobs in my opinion). And with a change to Big Shootas, Clans and other things, the Stompa might finally be OK. I dont want it to be cheap, the Tau'nar is cheap when it shouldnt be. Let the Stompa be the king of its weight class, but have the pts to match that. I dont want to see every list have a stompa in like a Castellan because its too good and cheap then watch it get nerfed to the stratosphere. Make it good and Orky, but respectful with its cost.
