Yeah, and it's not a valid comparison to a real world scenario.
Of course Destroyers with Extermination Protocols are better than Warriors with Talent for Murder. They also aren't mutually exclusive. But you can only use one of each each turn.
Sam Henley(famously good player) got 3rd in the big GT (78 people, a lot of top placing ITC people included) with sautekh 2 crypteks, 3x5 immortals, 3 DDA, 2 vaults and ZERO destroyers
rvd1ofakind wrote: Sam Henley(famously good player) got 3rd in the big GT (78 people, a lot of top placing ITC people included) with sautekh 2 crypteks, 3x5 immortals, 3 DDA, 2 vaults and ZERO destroyers
Total
Shots
20
Total
Hits
26.333
Includes 13 Extra Hits for Tesla
Wounds
Caused
17.556
Unsaved
Wounds
5.852
Total
Damage
5.852
Dead
Models
5
Total
Shots
20
Total
Hits
13.333
Includes 0 Extra Hits for Tesla
Wounds
Caused
6.667
Unsaved
Wounds
3.333
Total
Damage
3.333
Dead
Models
3
For mwbd on 20 warriors vs 10 immortals.
I'm assuming you meant 40 shots for those Warriors.
But we already knew 240 points of Warriors would out perform 170 points of Immortals. It was the equal points comparison that was unsure.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Sam Henley(famously good player) got 3rd in the big GT (78 people, a lot of top placing ITC people included) with sautekh 2 crypteks, 3x5 immortals, 3 DDA, 2 vaults and ZERO destroyers
What kind of crypteks and immortals?
Cloakteks. 1 Veil, 1 Abyssal staff
Tesla Immortals obviously. Why is that even a question
Because there are actually reasons to run gauss immortals, especially if not using mephrit. On a secondary note, are you even capable of communication without being a fething prick about it?
You run Gauss Immortals if your list have next to no anti-armor. Which is the point where you should rethink your list.
Also his list had a TON of anti-armor.
And it's exactly the opposite. Gauss and warriors are the GOOD choices for mephrit as you want to be within 12'' with them anyway for rapid fire.
Finally, the second best Necron list was Mephrit which had 3W 3L so it sucked. And the third was also Mephrit and it went 2W 4L. It's like Mephrit is a trap or something
PS: I wasn't really calling you out. It was more of "why is gauss so bad, GW"
rvd1ofakind wrote: Sam Henley(famously good player) got 3rd in the big GT (78 people, a lot of top placing ITC people included) with sautekh 2 crypteks, 3x5 immortals, 3 DDA, 2 vaults and ZERO destroyers
Yeah that does look good. The Weakness of the Vaults is that they aren't very good against tough, single model units. 3 DDAs make up for that nicely. It's also nice to see someone having the sense to not fall into the Mephrit trap! Sautekhs Methodical Destruction Strat is great for all that Tesla.
Nihilakh. Hope he didn't forget you can't heal em
Oh. I would have said that was the second best choice but I'm going to assume this guy knows what he's doing. My problem with Nihilak is that if you have 2 Vaults, you can only give the +1 Sv to one a turn. I suppose you wait until one is damaged then use it on that.
Finally, the second best Necron list was Mephrit which had 3W 3L so it sucked. And the third was also Mephrit and it went 2W 4L. It's like Mephrit is a trap or something
Oh, the internet. That's an insignificantly small sample size, homie, against really good competition. Considering we know nothing about the players themselves or their statistical variation that day, I would caution against drawing any conclusion at all from that.
The Astros just went 3 and 4 against the Yankees and Indians. They must "suck," too, right? I mean they are the defending world champions and the odds on favorite to win the AL pennant, but what does Vegas know, amrite? They just lost 4 out of 7?
You're not gonna get a better sample until one of the major tournaments: BAO for example as the closest one. So this is about as good as you're gonna get. Well known players, almost 80 people, 6 games, no BS missions.
"Small sample size" really doesn't cut it in 40k. There aren't millions of games going on that are documented every day and split into Rankings so you can find out which is the best. This tournament is "sufficient" sample size, IMO. The next one will be BAO.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You're not gonna get a better sample until one of the major tournaments: BAO for example as the closest one. So this is about as good as you're gonna get. Well known players, almost 80 people, 6 games, no BS missions.
Ok. That really doesn't change the fact that this is an insigificantly small sample size. "The best data we have" can still be woefully inconclusive.
I'm not saying it's meaningless data, but if you really think you can draw demonstrative conclusions off of it you have a ton to learn about statistics.
"Small sample size" really doesn't cut it in 40k. There are millions of games going on that are documented every day and split into Rankings so you can find out which is the best. This tournament is "sufficient" sample size, IMO. The next one will be BAO.
It's more like thousands, but sure, in theory, that gives us better data. Of course there are, what, 27 different codexes now? And how many different ways to we have of playing each one? The legitimate variations are easily in the hundreds. So our global sample size is maybe and order of magnitude higher then our total possible list of variations?
Yeah, that's still not a very big one. Again, not meaningless, just not conclusive.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Sam Henley(famously good player) got 3rd in the big GT (78 people, a lot of top placing ITC people included) with sautekh 2 crypteks, 3x5 immortals, 3 DDA, 2 vaults and ZERO destroyers
which GT was this? I'm curious to find out more about this tournament.
You don't like Mephrit and Destroyers, and you're unhappy that not more people share this view. Fine.
You have made your point with a pun-like remark in almost every post you have made over the last few pages, can you please drop it now.
I muted him like 10 pages ago. It got old, and man, was it the right decision.
Anyway - Is it seeming to everyone like Vaults are becoming the go to for competitive play? I still think they suffer from an identity crisis as far as what they are meant to engage on the board, since most of their guns and powers work best on infantry...and we have no issues killing infantry with a plethora of our codex options.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Sam Henley(famously good player) got 3rd in the big GT (78 people, a lot of top placing ITC people included) with sautekh 2 crypteks, 3x5 immortals, 3 DDA, 2 vaults and ZERO destroyers
which GT was this? I'm curious to find out more about this tournament.
You don't like Mephrit and Destroyers, and you're unhappy that not more people share this view. Fine.
You have made your point with a pun-like remark in almost every post you have made over the last few pages, can you please drop it now.
I muted him like 10 pages ago. It got old, and man, was it the right decision.
Anyway - Is it seeming to everyone like Vaults are becoming the go to for competitive play? I still think they suffer from an identity crisis as far as what they are meant to engage on the board, since most of their guns and powers work best on infantry...and we have no issues killing infantry with a plethora of our codex options.
Yeah it's getting really annoying.
The vaults are also shutting off large parts of the board by their physical size, and getting superior line of sight with its height. There is some tactical advantage in that against several armies.
You don't like Mephrit and Destroyers, and you're unhappy that not more people share this view. Fine.
You have made your point with a pun-like remark in almost every post you have made over the last few pages, can you please drop it now.
I just reported the results of the tournament. I was surprised there were no destroyers. I do not hate them. I just don't think they're the best unit everyone keeps saying they are.
Mephrit on the other hand is just bad for most units. The only ones that are good for it are low AP 12'' guns (basically just Gauss for RF range). But that means you have to sarcrifice your entire detachment for that. So you either take 60 warriors, which is not good, or gauss immortals which are not good either, or tomb blades which are OK.
Also, please. I hope the Mephrit lovers of this thread do ignore me. They have nothing of value to contribute anyway.
You don't like Mephrit and Destroyers, and you're unhappy that not more people share this view. Fine.
You have made your point with a pun-like remark in almost every post you have made over the last few pages, can you please drop it now.
I just reported the results of the tournament. I was surprised there were no destroyers. I do not hate them. I just don't think they're the best unit everyone keeps saying they are.
Mephrit on the other hand is just bad for most units. The only ones that are good for it are low AP 12'' guns (basically just Gauss for RF range). But that means you have to sarcrifice your entire detachment for that. So you either take 60 warriors, which is not good, or gauss immortals which are not good either, or tomb blades which are OK.
Also, please. I hope the Mephrit lovers of this thread do ignore me. They have nothing of value to contribute anyway.
Yeah again with the condescending tone. Sorry I'm ignoring this too, too childish.
Also, please. I hope the Mephrit lovers of this thread do ignore me. They have nothing of value to contribute anyway.
lol
Even when Stelek has long retired from the game, it's, um, "good" to see his spirit still haunts our precious little hobby of pewpewing with our man dollies.
There's really no reason to be so caustic on the intertrons broseph. People are going to have various perspectives on what works for them that's largely predicated on their personal playstyle and their local meta. If you don't want to use any of them and just copy paste some other guy's army that won some tournament somewhere? Cool. You do you. But that simply isn't any justifiable reason to micturate on everyone else's parade because they simply disagree with you.
Personally, I don't think there are any true duds among the current picks of dynasties. Through their various Codes, Relics, Traits and Strategems they all offer a different way to augment a different playstyle and set of units. Not to say there aren't individual duds in among them. Novohk's WT is pretty bad, for instance. But all in all I think GW did a fair job.
I also don't think Gauss is bad at all. It really shines at RF range versus Tesla, which works perfectly with Mephrit. I think the biggest problem right now, is, Veil is the only easy way to bring that to fruition. However, I think with the stratagems they gave Monos and Night Scythes there is definitely potential to use them as well. And both of those units, incidentally, also benefit wonderfully from Mephrit.
My personal trigger is people whining when I don't directly attack them. "Oh your so condecending", etc. Most people I talk to on the net can't handle writing 3 sentences without calling the other person an idiot(except with way worse words). Which is why I try my hardest to avoid saying things like that. But when people even cry over that - grow a thicker skin!
on-topic:
That's the problem with 40 I've noticed. People go to these tactics threads and expect their anecdotal FLGS battle reports/eperience to be taken as the "be all end all of the meta". I almost completelly ignore my personal experience. It's meaningless in the grand scheme of things. GT and Major results are what matter. And if you don't think so - why are you here arguing with people who do. You're clearly not playing competitive games/are not informed enough about the meta/tournament results to do so. Anyway...
Thinking none of the dynasties are duds, shows that you are not thinking competitively. Anything "pretty good" is "Trash" when it comes to competitive. You have to take the best of the best. That's why there are only about 1-2 subfactions in every codex doing anything in tournaments consistently. Again, you are free to think they are all equal, but... see my first on-topic point
GW didn't do a fair job. 50-80% of traits/stratagems/artifacts/WL traits are awful. That's in every codex (except maaaaaaybe eldar?). That's the problem when your testers are not complete WAAC a-holes. Yes, you wouldn't want to face one, but they would've done a much better job testing all the broken stuff and would easily notice which units are just "bad"... which is most of them...
Basically if you pick Gauss without mephrit - you're just silly. If you use Gauss outside RF range - you should use tesla. So there are 2 cams: tesla + non-mephrit and gauss + mephrit. And yes, right now there's only one realiable way to actually use gauss+mephrit - veil (even so, the enemy can scout you out of range, but let's ignore that). You can also Deceive in, but that relies on you going first. Monoliths and Night Scythes are just *fart sound*, sorry. They're for Open play/Narrative play
You don't like Mephrit and Destroyers, and you're unhappy that not more people share this view. Fine.
You have made your point with a pun-like remark in almost every post you have made over the last few pages, can you please drop it now.
I muted him like 10 pages ago. It got old, and man, was it the right decision.
Anyway - Is it seeming to everyone like Vaults are becoming the go to for competitive play? I still think they suffer from an identity crisis as far as what they are meant to engage on the board, since most of their guns and powers work best on infantry...and we have no issues killing infantry with a plethora of our codex options.
on-topic:
That's the problem with 40 I've noticed. People go to these tactics threads and expect their anecdotal FLGS battle reports/eperience to be taken as the "be all end all of the meta". I almost completelly ignore my personal experience. It's meaningless in the grand scheme of things. GT and Major results are what matter. And if you don't think so - why are you here arguing with people who do. You're clearly not playing competitive games/are not informed enough about the meta/tournament results to do so. Anyway...
Ya know you say that, but in the local flgs I reported on several pages ago, the guy I played in the finals is the guy that won Midwest Conquest, and another guy there placed in the top 15.
Local tournaments are often testing grounds for the GTs so I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss their results.
Oh, well obviously I will not dismiss people who are proven (by really high ITC scores, consistent tournament victories, etc). So if you face one of them in your FLGS - definitelly mention it. That's really valuable info.
Trust me, I don't think I'm the best 40k player or whatever. I just don't practice enough, don't spam enough, don't go to tournaments outside of my (small) country. If I have an opinion about anything - a pros disagreement will definitelly cause me to at least rethink my opinion.
rvd1ofakind wrote: sautekh
2 crypteks,
3x5 immortals,
3 DDA,
2 vaults
and ZERO destroyers
So only 3 out of the 4 best units we have. Cool stuff.
Did he fight AM with a shadowsword? 1 turn from that bad boy will Pop a Vault, or get very close and let another tank finish it off. Its Hitting on 3's, with order possibly rerolling 1's, also take reroll varaible shots (d6) AND wounding on 2's rerolling those as well.
rvd1ofakind wrote: sautekh
2 crypteks,
3x5 immortals,
3 DDA,
2 vaults
and ZERO destroyers
So only 3 out of the 4 best units we have. Cool stuff.
Did he fight AM with a shadowsword? 1 turn from that bad boy will Pop a Vault, or get very close and let another tank finish it off. Its Hitting on 3's, with order possibly rerolling 1's, also take reroll varaible shots (d6) AND wounding on 2's rerolling those as well.
To be fair, not every IG army runs a Shadowsword, so a niche example might not be the best test case. Most probably would prefer to spam Leman Russes.
Or did I misunderstand what you meant, and you were asking to confirm that he actually DID fight one?
rvd1ofakind wrote: sautekh
2 crypteks,
3x5 immortals,
3 DDA,
2 vaults
and ZERO destroyers
So only 3 out of the 4 best units we have. Cool stuff.
Did he fight AM with a shadowsword? 1 turn from that bad boy will Pop a Vault, or get very close and let another tank finish it off. Its Hitting on 3's, with order possibly rerolling 1's, also take reroll varaible shots (d6) AND wounding on 2's rerolling those as well.
To be fair, not every IG army runs a Shadowsword, so a niche example might not be the best test case. Most probably would prefer to spam Leman Russes.
Or did I misunderstand what you meant, and you were asking to confirm that he actually DID fight one?
Yeah I was asking if he fought one?
I would say in ITC Grand GT format at least half of AM list have a shadowsword. Take out Fliers, Knights, Tanks/Razorbacks, Morty, T Vaults, Swarmlord/Flyrants/ etc....
Here is my major problem for next weeks game custodes
Needing major help on what tactics and what must brings to the list it will be between 1850-2500 for dealing with them and he will also have def a marine chapter Space Wolves Raven Guard or imperial fist and potentially some Ad Mec
Dynas wrote: It will be 3x custodes bikers with shields. Use mortal wounds or destroyers.
Nice cheers and in Melee wraiths was thinking of potentially running two CTan one def being the trans to get off 2 powers for sure behind wraiths
I could support with destroyers as well not sure putting so much into them might be waste I feel you just can’t ignore them Yeah he has played that he also has played the supreme command detachment to make them all characters
In any of these scenarios does he still get the 3+ invulnerable across all of them ???
That's the problem with 40 I've noticed. People go to these tactics threads and expect their anecdotal FLGS battle reports/eperience to be taken as the "be all end all of the meta". I almost completelly ignore my personal experience. It's meaningless in the grand scheme of things. GT and Major results are what matter. And if you don't think so - why are you here arguing with people who do. You're clearly not playing competitive games/are not informed enough about the meta/tournament results to do so. Anyway...
Again, because they disagree with you they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. That's adorable.
I don't play high comp anymore, although a significant portion of my games are against those that do. I did most of my high comp playing in 3rd, 4th and 5th. You simply have no appropriate frame of reference to make such absurd accusations.
Thinking none of the dynasties are duds, shows that you are not thinking competitively.
Vapid nonsense.
Anything "pretty good" is "Trash" when it comes to competitive.
Also nonsense. I remember Tony taking NOVA back in 13 or 14 with what appeared to be a pretty generic Necron list at the time. You can absolutely win high comp without having to find the most exploitative use of the rules as possible and spamming 20 of them. This game has hundreds of die rolls and player skill that vastly transcend list building in its overall impact on the outcome. Also, the true difference, particularly now days, between most under or overcosted units is maybe a few percentage points. If the only way you know how to win is exploiting those few percentage points then you have a lot to learn about the game.
Basically if you pick Gauss without mephrit - you're just silly. If you use Gauss outside RF range - you should use tesla. So there are 2 cams: tesla + non-mephrit and gauss + mephrit. And yes, right now there's only one realiable way to actually use gauss+mephrit - veil (even so, the enemy can scout you out of range, but let's ignore that). You can also Deceive in, but that relies on you going first. Monoliths and Night Scythes are just *fart sound*, sorry. They're for Open play/Narrative play.
Lol, so says you. Codex has been out for a month but you clearly have it all figured out.
If they disagree with me and quote me some tournament results/pro's opinion or at least give a valid explanation - I'll listen to them. Otherwise it's a waste of my time. I've played a bunch of mutliplayer games online, board games IRL, etc and I've always thought I was just "ok-good-ish". And when I look at the stats, I'm almost always top 5% of the player base or better. Wow. That's because there are a LOT of stupid people out there and people who do not care about winning/playing competitively. Which is why I do not take most opinions into account. You have to either substantiate it with previously mentioned things.
"Vapid nonsense" /clap What a great response. I've proved my point. You really only see Alpha Legion and Black Legion; Cadians; Ultramarines and Raven Guard; Mars and Stygies, etc making top tables with an exception every few tournaments. Which means the others just straight up suck.
"You can absolutely win high comp without having to find the most exploitative use of the rules as possible"
You say "Abuse", I say "having the ability to differentiate good units from bad units (because why would you use bad units if you intend to win)". This all comes from this weird (and frankly stupid) thought of "GW can do no wrong. Everything is viable" when the answer to that is clearly no. GW are as stupid as all get out when it comes to writting rules and balancing. Some stuff is clearly straight up worse and some stuff is clearly better.
And I clearly haven't figured it all out. I'm just frustrated with people doing something I'm really sure is bad, getting bad results for necrons, and still doing it expecting something different. Necrons are a shooting glass cannon army. Durability wise they are TERRIBLE for their points. They cannot stand within 12'' and win the trade +1AP or not UNLESS they can put almost ALL their units within 12'' for a huge alpha strike. At the moment that is not really possible to pull off reliably (and it can easily be canceled with scouts and screens and line of sight AND deepstrike. That's a lot of ways).
v0iddrgn wrote: The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?
Its pretty much Textbook the same as the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic, and I do not believe that works that way. You have to stay still in your most recent movement phase.
"Vapid nonsense" /clap What a great response. I've proved my point. You really only see Alpha Legion and Black Legion; Cadians; Ultramarines and Raven Guard; Mars and Stygies, etc making top tables with an exception every few tournaments. Which means the others just straight up suck.
What percentage of the overall field were those lists to begin with?
This has been an issue with the high comp player bases perception for decades now. It's a continuous loop of "this worked right when the codex came out, so lets all bring this, and, lo and behold, that keeps working because noone else is even trying anything else." And there is good reason for this. Putting together an 1850 to 2000 point list is time consuming and expensive, further complicated by how much time is invested in getting good with it. After all those sunk costs people tend to be reluctant to try something else out.
However, the inevitable result is you very rarely see this particular player base even try something different. Reecius does. Hulk and Dash made names for themselves back in 5th traveling the country with lists and units most thought were undepowered and crushing people with them. Hell, Dash was winning 5th edition tournaments with the 3rd edition Cron Dex. If you think their is power discrepancy now days you haven't seen gak like it use to be. That thing was outdated and bad.
Also, this player base by no means represents some lofty experts opinion of the efficacy of units at large. Something like 1% of the total player base plays high comp, and it's not like it's "only the best" who do. Now, many of these players are exceptional, no question, but in general it has more to do with people who have a ton of money and free time to pour into this endeavor then anything else.
Anyway, we are straying way off tangent so if you would like to continue this discussion via PMs feel free to do so. I'm always up for a good internet debate. I just ask you keep that in mind when responding to people. It's perfectly ok to want to take units that[b] you[/b] find under valued and make the best of them. You can either choose to offer your 2 cents on the best way to use them, or omit yourself from the conversation. But don't be that guy.
v0iddrgn wrote: The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?
Its pretty much Textbook the same as the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic, and I do not believe that works that way. You have to stay still in your most recent movement phase.
It reads, "... THE preceding Movement phase", that means your opponent's Movement phase when it comes to OW.
v0iddrgn wrote: The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?
Its pretty much Textbook the same as the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic, and I do not believe that works that way. You have to stay still in your most recent movement phase.
It reads, "... THE preceding Movement phase."
You know what I DO find interesting though, is using the Nihilak Strategem on a Phalanx of infantry under a chronometron. Turning your warriors into 3+ / 4++ for a turn makes them pretty stupidly survivable. Just thought about that.
v0iddrgn wrote: The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?
Its pretty much Textbook the same as the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic, and I do not believe that works that way. You have to stay still in your most recent movement phase.
It reads, "... THE preceding Movement phase."
You know what I DO find interesting though, is using the Nihilak Strategem on a Phalanx of infantry under a chronometron. Turning your warriors into 3+ / 4++ for a turn makes them pretty stupidly survivable. Just thought about that.
Yeah definitely, I tried the argument that the stratagem being played end of turn meant it wasn't played in a phase, thus you could give it to two units (if applicable), but it definitely needs a FAQ (it's played end of turn, so perhaps not in a phase)
Yeah definitely, I tried the argument that the stratagem being played end of turn meant it wasn't played in a phase, thus you could give it to two units (if applicable), but it definitely needs a FAQ (it's played end of turn, so perhaps not in a phase)
At the end of your turn is definitely not in a phase, which means you can play this strat as many times as you want, even on one unit.
Mephrit is great for Warriors. The reason people are down on Mephrit is that it isn't a good fit for a lot of other units. If you are running 20 man warrior blobs then you really should be Mephrit, if you have 3x 10 Tesla Immortals it's probably not the best choice.
Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.
Luckily you don't just play the game with one unit in isolation, but as a larger strategy Counter charge units are nearby. You want them to be charged and are placed in such a way that your opponent has too many threats to deal with. If you charges warriors, Deciver HI, and/or wraiths counter charge next turn. Opponent has to clear 20+ warriors with 3+ and 5++ from Cryptec, if they don't RP and the unit can become a tarpit.
Heavy Destroyers are just worse against any target if you use the re-roll stratagem every turn. So Only if you have multiple units of destroyers and you're expecting to face a lot of tough targets/don't have enough anti-tank targets. Which at the end of the day means you never use them because you should be taking a TAC list.
BaconCatBug wrote: Opinions on Heavy Destroyers as an Upgrade? Should I not bother and save the 7 points? Assume I am using the re-roll stratagem every turn
If you deepstrike your destroyers and use stratagem on them - regular destroyer is better.
H.destroyers are usefull:
- when i tested 3 max units of destroyers they helped to apply buffs to the units cause of their better range;
- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment
- 3 heavy destroyers can do damage under stratagem. Although you usually more want DDA for this role, and stratagem is used on regular destroyers.
"- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment "
this is probably their best thing. I think I'll do that to fill the last space in my sautekh spearhead since I don't really want a 3rd DDA.
BaconCatBug wrote: Opinions on Heavy Destroyers as an Upgrade? Should I not bother and save the 7 points? Assume I am using the re-roll stratagem every turn
If you deepstrike your destroyers and use stratagem on them - regular destroyer is better.
H.destroyers are usefull:
- when i tested 3 max units of destroyers they helped to apply buffs to the units cause of their better range;
- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment
- 3 heavy destroyers can do damage under stratagem. Although you usually more want DDA for this role, and stratagem is used on regular destroyers.
h. destroyers are better, point for point, when the strength improvement comes into play, ie from T6 and above they start getting better. But you can only take them in units of 3, so 4+ regular destroyers are better if you have the points.
If you are up against T7 and up, then you could put a HD into your squad of regular destroyers to help shift things. Personally I think the versatility of Destroyers, with their 3 shots and near HD performance against higher toughnesses means they are superior.
You could even make a case for firing them at guardsmen, that in cover and ducking under the table have a 3+ save. a single HD shot against that stilsl feels ridiculous.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment "
this is probably their best thing. I think I'll do that to fill the last space in my sautekh spearhead since I don't really want a 3rd DDA.
It could work as a nice "marker light" to trigger Methodical Destruction for the DDAs too.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment "
this is probably their best thing. I think I'll do that to fill the last space in my sautekh spearhead since I don't really want a 3rd DDA.
It could work as a nice "marker light" to trigger Methodical Destruction for the DDAs too.
Eh... one shot is very unreliable but when it happens and you're facing a superheavy - sure.
Eh... one shot is very unreliable but when it happens and you're facing a superheavy - sure.
Well yeah. I'm not suggesting it's a great strategy, it wouldn't even always be worth the 2 CP, but it's something if you're going with a single HD. A pair of DDAs only just kill a Rhino by themselves so you don't even need to be facing a superheavy to consider it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK so now I'm reevaluating which heavy support choice to add to my 2x DDA to make a Sautekh Spearhead. I imagine that question is quite relavent to all the other poor people with only 2 DDAs.
Currently I've been going with an Anni Barge, but a single Heavy Destroyer is interesting. I think Tomb Spiders are crap, and not worth considering.
My Nephrek Battalion is:
Spoiler:
Overlord + HPS + Veil of Darkness
Cryptek + Cloak
10x Tesla Imm
10x Tesla Imm
10x Tesla Imm
5x Wraith
6x Destroyers
The Sautekh Spearhead will either be:
Spoiler:
Overlord + HPS
3 x Tomb Blades w/ Gauss
Anni Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
DDA DDA
or:
Spoiler:
Overlord + HPS
3x Tomb Blades w/ Gauss
3x Tomb Blades w/ Gauss
Heavy Destroyer
DDA DDA
So it's basically an Anni Barge vs. 3x Tomb Blades and a Heavy Destroyer. Thoughts?
BaconCatBug wrote: Opinions on Heavy Destroyers as an Upgrade? Should I not bother and save the 7 points? Assume I am using the re-roll stratagem every turn
If you deepstrike your destroyers and use stratagem on them - regular destroyer is better.
H.destroyers are usefull:
- when i tested 3 max units of destroyers they helped to apply buffs to the units cause of their better range;
- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment
- 3 heavy destroyers can do damage under stratagem. Although you usually more want DDA for this role, and stratagem is used on regular destroyers.
h. destroyers are better, point for point, when the strength improvement comes into play, ie from T6 and above they start getting better. But you can only take them in units of 3, so 4+ regular destroyers are better if you have the points.
If you are up against T7 and up, then you could put a HD into your squad of regular destroyers to help shift things. Personally I think the versatility of Destroyers, with their 3 shots and near HD performance against higher toughnesses means they are superior.
You could even make a case for firing them at guardsmen, that in cover and ducking under the table have a 3+ save. a single HD shot against that stilsl feels ridiculous.
Under extermination protocol regular destroyers are way better than heavy against most targets. Even if you pick worst target for regular destroyers, say rhino:
3 regular destroyers under protocol do 7.4 damage to rhino, 20.3 points per damage
3 heavy destroyers under protocol do 8.3 damage to rhino, 20.6 points per damage
Still i would pick regular destroyers cause of squad size - they just use that CP for stratagem way better. Against any other target (maybe except wave serpent cause of -1 damage field, not sure) regular destroyers perform much better.
If you not gonna use stratagem on a squad - pick DDA. Its much more durable than 3 h.destroyers and its gauss flayers into rapid fire range are nuts.
Basically my list <3
The choice is obvious for me - H Destroyer. Barge is just a 24'' shooting unit in an army full of those that do it better. H destroyer is: more efficient, cheaper and has 36'' range.
Basically my list <3
The choice is obvious for me - H Destroyer. Barge is just a 24'' shooting unit in an army full of those that do it better. H destroyer is: more efficient, cheaper and has 36'' range.
That is what I am thinking. Plus the Heavy Destroyer gives my Sautekh Overlord a target for his MWBD!
It's still a close run thing though, the difference between a Gauss Cannon + 8 S7 Tesla shots vs a Heavy GC and 12 S5 Tesla shots (for ease of comparison).
The Anni Barge adds another QS vehicle to maybe draw fire from DDAs vs the HD + TBs being 2 separate fast units for objective grabbing.
Ultimately I wouldn't want a lone HD or an Anni Barge in an ideal list, so the cheaper tax is probably best.
You know what? That's actually not a horrible idea.
Push forward with it aggressively so they'll be more likely to shoot at it rather than the actual threat in your back field. Get some "Uhoh, here comes my lightning boat, gonna fry all your guys!" mind games going with your opponent.
(also, the Annihilation Barge has an underslung gun, so it's really 8 S7+3 S6 vs 12 S5 in your TB comparisons)
The extra 12 inches of range for the HDs doesn't get mentioned enough, I believe. Although it's harder to factor it into math hammer, over the long run it equals to less return fire and less risk of getting assaulted, etc.
That being said, if you got 300 points, an FA slot available, and plenty of CP to dedicate to EP, 6 Destroyers is a great deal. The efficacy of the HDs come in either after you already have that first unit of Ds, or, as mentioned above, as the cheapest way to fill out HS slots. That's probably the primary reason I bring them in my Novohk Brigade, although I have on occasion used spiders in their place with mixed results.
You know what? That's actually not a horrible idea.
Push forward with it aggressively so they'll be more likely to shoot at it rather than the actual threat in your back field. Get some "Uhoh, here comes my lightning boat, gonna fry all your guys!" mind games going with your opponent.
(also, the Annihilation Barge has an underslung gun, so it's really 8 S7+3 S6 vs 12 S5 in your TB comparisons)
I included an underslung Gauss Cannon in my comparison, it's far better than a Tesla Cannon.
An AB really shouldn't Draw fire from DDAs but they often do. People like to finish Necron stuff in one turn, and when the AB is the only QS in range of multiple units it's drawn all the fire from my opponents. sometimes. I'm still leaning towards the HD though.
You know what? That's actually not a horrible idea.
Push forward with it aggressively so they'll be more likely to shoot at it rather than the actual threat in your back field. Get some "Uhoh, here comes my lightning boat, gonna fry all your guys!" mind games going with your opponent.
(also, the Annihilation Barge has an underslung gun, so it's really 8 S7+3 S6 vs 12 S5 in your TB comparisons)
I included an underslung Gauss Cannon in my comparison, it's far better than a Tesla Cannon.
An AB really shouldn't Draw fire from DDAs but they often do. People like to finish Necron stuff in one turn, and when the AB is the only QS in range of multiple units it's drawn all the fire from my opponents. sometimes. I'm still leaning towards the HD though.
This. We're basically an entire army of Distraction Carnifexes. It's why I've often harped on Warriors being far stronger than people realize. Yes, they are weak when view in isolation, but when you run a Warrior/GA/Cryptek combo alongside 6 Tomb Blades, 6 Wraiths, a sniper CCB, and a DDA, which one is your opponent going to focus on first?
So it's basically an Anni Barge vs. 3x Tomb Blades and a Heavy Destroyer. Thoughts?
Anni barge is just bad. Going that direction i would use CCB with 4++ instead.
Are you sure that squad of 3 gauss tomb blades worth it? Most plasma \ close combat units will be happy to return their points by killing that unit.
You have no screen at all. You will suffer from mortal wounds a lot. I strongly recommend find points for 20 warriors or 9+ scarabs.
1) The Anni barge is not great I agree, but it's filling a vital role as the 3rd Heavy support slot, so only other heavy support choices are a useful alternative.
2) Having used them extensively, yes I am sure a squad of 3 Tomb Blades is worth it. They seem to be my most survivable units as people find them more trouble to shift than they are worth. They are great for grabbing objectives and screening. Plasma? you would need 6 rapid firing, overcharged BS 3+ plasma guns to take out 3 Tomb blades, and you would lose a third of those to overheating thanks to the -1 to hit. Can you get 6 plasma guns for 105pts? A triple Disintegrator Ravager won't kill 3 Tomb blades. This is all assuming Sheild Vanes. I think one of the main reasons they keep surviving games is that people underestimate how much it takes to kill them, try once, fail, then focus on more important targets. I've never run them with Gauss before, but I feel I might not need more Tesla on top of 30 Immortals- still unsure on this point though.
3) Yeah, other than the Tomb Blades I don't have screens. The problem is that this list is intending to be Deep striking the Destroyers and 2-3 units of Immortals, which makes positioning screens difficult.
-Sentinel- wrote: You have no screen at all. You will suffer from mortal wounds a lot. I strongly recommend find points for 20 warriors or 9+ scarabs.
That's a bit overkill for just screens, don't you think?
Both are not just screen. Warriors lose some of them, roll RP and got teleported into opponents backlines to grab his points. Scarabs can be taken as 3 per 3 bases and could be used as objective grabbers.
2 Moosatronic Warrior: i still think having unit to soak mortal wounds is essential. At least small unit of scarabs. Cause now every wound from you list cost at least 17 points. While scarab wound cost 4.3 points.
Shadowlooms are well worth the points on TB now with the constant spam of plasma. The invuln and -1 to hit really discourage those plasma weapons from targeting the TB.
-Sentinel- wrote: Also, maybe having 2nd overlord is better than cryptek? You have 3 immortals units. Immortals love MWBD more than +1 to RP.
This is something else I can't make my mind up on. As long as I have 3 healthy Immortal units on the board, an extra MWBD is better. If one of the Immortal units is crippled/dead/in reserve, the cryptek seems more useful.
-Sentinel- wrote: Also, maybe having 2nd overlord is better than cryptek? You have 3 immortals units. Immortals love MWBD more than +1 to RP.
This is something else I can't make my mind up on. As long as I have 3 healthy Immortal units on the board, an extra MWBD is better. If one of the Immortal units is crippled/dead/in reserve, the cryptek seems more useful.
Well the immortals likely do what they're needed for early on (killing schaff) later on when they could have used a cryptek the schaff is gone or much less of a threat or in cover. Ymmv of course.
So it's basically an Anni Barge vs. 3x Tomb Blades and a Heavy Destroyer. Thoughts?
Anni barge is just bad. Going that direction i would use CCB with 4++ instead.
Are you sure that squad of 3 gauss tomb blades worth it? Most plasma \ close combat units will be happy to return their points by killing that unit.
You have no screen at all. You will suffer from mortal wounds a lot. I strongly recommend find points for 20 warriors or 9+ scarabs.
1) The Anni barge is not great I agree, but it's filling a vital role as the 3rd Heavy support slot, so only other heavy support choices are a useful alternative.
2) Having used them extensively, yes I am sure a squad of 3 Tomb Blades is worth it. They seem to be my most survivable units as people find them more trouble to shift than they are worth. They are great for grabbing objectives and screening. Plasma? you would need 6 rapid firing, overcharged BS 3+ plasma guns to take out 3 Tomb blades, and you would lose a third of those to overheating thanks to the -1 to hit. Can you get 6 plasma guns for 105pts? A triple Disintegrator Ravager won't kill 3 Tomb blades. This is all assuming Sheild Vanes. I think one of the main reasons they keep surviving games is that people underestimate how much it takes to kill them, try once, fail, then focus on more important targets.
I've never run them with Gauss before, but I feel I might not need more Tesla on top of 30 Immortals- still unsure on this point though.
3) Yeah, other than the Tomb Blades I don't have screens. The problem is that this list is intending to be Deep striking the Destroyers and 2-3 units of Immortals, which makes positioning screens difficult.
As a big Mephrit fan normally, I decided to give Sautekh a go for a game.
I have to say, I was not really impressed unfortunately.
-I only had 6 CP (-1 for an extra relic, -1 for a re-roll on a T. C'tans upgrades) this resulted only one extra CP thanks to the Sautekh WL.
-With so few CP, Methodical Destruction didn't come into play. I needed my CP for extra MWBD, re-roll/Quantum Overload on the DDA.
-The ignore heavy weapons/advance didn't come into play. But I did miss Mephrit's -1 quite a few times.
Maybe I should have build my list more around Sautekh and spend less CP before the battle?
I always like having a couple of Heavy D's in my list. I love the fact that they are a great platform for HGC (reroll 1's hitting and move/shoot) also relatively cheap compared to other HS choices. Another great thing about them is they can benefit from MWBD, Lord's Will, and UiH. They are just a nice way to shore up AT at a bargain price.
Land Speeders [18 PL, 336pts]
. Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter
. Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter
. Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter
Wolf Guard [20 PL, 282pts]: Jump Packs
. Wolf Guard: Wolf Claw (Pair)
. Wolf Guard: Wolf Claw (Pair)
. Wolf Guard: Wolf Claw (Pair)
. Wolf Guard: Wolf Claw (Pair)
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Power fist, Storm shield
Wolf Guard on Bikes [28 PL, 288pts]
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Frost sword, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Frost sword, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Frost sword, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Frost sword, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Frost sword, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike Pack Leader: Chainsword, Power axe, Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
Curious79 wrote: I actually like the Monolith and what can now be done
With certain strats I just can’t get it to survive long enough
To do any cool stuff Plasma and Lascannon Spam
Monolith goes boom most of the time first round of shooting
Anybody had success with it yet?
I think Mephrit is the way to go to unlock their potential. The buffs really synergize with what they do, which is drop in close and then use their portals to drop other units in closer.
I think you really need two, though, which pretty much means 1850 to 2k.
I'm playing with a list that starts like this:
2xMono
2x10 Gauss Immortals
1x10 WS Lychguard
I figure with 2 Monos, Enhanced Invasion Beams, and Emergency Invasion Beams you can feel pretty confident getting 3 units on the board before both Monos go poof. The Gauss Immortals make sense because with Meph you are bringing 40 S5 AP -4 shots to bear, and the WS Lychguard just always screamed to me to be a unit that needs some Mono love. Of course, I'm also playing this with the assumption that the Mono (and NS) will get errata'd soon to allow charges out of the invasion beams. All the testers I've spoken too confirm that was the intention.
To go with that I'm thinking something along the lines of CCB, DLord, or Cloaktek to bolt up the board and provide assistance, escorted my Destroyers, Wraiths, or TPs.
One of the best things the Mono potentially has going for it its an RP saver. Use them to help hide that one dude in each squad out of LOS.
You think wrong. Monoliths can't DS within 12", can't move more than 6" and has nothing worth doing within 12" of an enemy unit. Monoliths are criminally overcosted, hardly any firepower or survivablity for their cost and very little mobility. Everything good about it comes at the cost of CP that could be used to buff the Destroyers that aren't in your list.
This is my bet for best double Monolith list and I got plastered by Harlequins using the ITC missions, we were to control 5/6 objectives, which is basically impossible and meant my opponent won through crushing my Monoliths. My opponent deployed entirely hidden, I deployed everything but the Monoliths. I gave him first turn because I couldn't hurt him anyways.
He moved turn 1 and did nothing else. I dropped the Monoliths in my Dzone and they did maybe 8 wounds combined, my Destroyers did 10 with the strat (760 pts +2 pts vs 300 pts + 1 CP).
He dropped one Monolith down to 2 wounds with shooting in his next turn and killed my destroyers. My MWBD tesla Immortals did more damage than either Monolith (I spent a CP to shoot at BS 3+), although the 170+MWBD unit was outdamaged by the two 380 pt models. Basically, Monoliths suck.
But I'm a sucker for pain so when someone said he was bringing a soft list to a 1500 pt game I took a Monolith again.
I forgot to bring my Triarch Stalker and I still absolutely creamed his Kutlakh list in a Maelstrom game which involved betting on how many objectives you were gonna get (he was optimistic and handed me a bunch of VPs). I just now thought of the fact that Nihilakh and Triarch Stalker don't mesh, ah well. The Monolith did okay, but a unit of Destroyers would have probably done a lot better... It just doesn't feel nice to field a unit knowing it's trash, but the Monolith did get to fire for 6 rounds with re-roll 1s (it got deployed and never once moved or took damage). Nihilakh Immortals are a lot of fun, I think they might actually be better than Nephrekh, I just don't feel right when I advance my Immortals, although I still feel Mephrit and Sautekh are better. Of course, Nihilakh is right at home facing a melee list, more testing required. I'll try to take the Monolith to a 2k game as Nihilakh and see what happens, I'm still pessimistic but I do love Monoliths. Timesplinter cloak and enduring will is pretty tough, but I still haven't found a relic worth leaving veil at home for, then it becomes a question of taking fearless and keeping a CP or taking enduring will and then paying a CP for timesplinter cloak. I definitely regretted the voidblade, a warscythe would have been really nice. I don't know about Spyders, they're squishy, don't hit hard, expensive and they suck if your opponent has enough firepower, but on the other hand they might be really good once in a while.
I also played a game against a pretty tough 1500pt Iron Warriors list between the two Monolith games, the mission invoved four objectives, ones outside your deployment zone being worth more. I had Overlord (voidscythe) Relic (veil) WL (strategist), Overlord (voidscythe), 3x10 Immortals (tesla), 9 Tomb Blades (gauss, shields, scopes), 4 Scarabs, 2 DDAs everything was Sautekh.
Sautekh is good. Destroyers were missed. Tomb Blades felt a little lacklustre, but I felt like I was forced to hold them back out of fear of his D2 guns, so that much was probably circumstantial. I killed 20 Cultists in 3 rounds because he made 50% of his FNP saves and he had the fearless WL trait, then I killed 39 in one turn when he used the tide of traitors strat to claim an objective away from his WL (he had no CP for insane bravery). Got a draw for taking an objective with my WL with veil, so amazing. Barely got a draw, but at the same time I wasn't far from getting a win either. This is also my third game where my opponent has extremely gakky psykers (he failed prescience 5 turns in a row), I feel like there is no need for me to take gloom prisms when my opponent's roll terribly anyways. Voidscythe continues to dissapoint, mostly because I didn't get into CC and as such could have gotten away with a sword.
The reason Mephrit is good for tesla is that it improves their dmg output by 100% against marines in cover (or at least saves you a CP). It's perfectly rational to say that you want to play toward a unit's strenghts, but the extra AP on an AP -2 weapon has far less effect compared to on an AP- weapon, which is why Mephrit tesla Immortals aren't trash. I think you might be right about +1 to hit being a bigger deal though, there are games which can be won on that alone and that WL trait is amazing. Mephrit tesla Immortals are probably just plain better at everything than Mephrit gauss Immortals assuming access to MWBD, there's also the fact that Sautekh doesn't do anything except grant access to a WL trait and a stratagem and that advancing tesla Immortals isn't great so Nephrekh has quite a drawback as well.
I'm really happy to see some Necron lists topping so early, hopefully, it gets better as people experiment and find the best lists the codex has to offer.
Should be really easy to beat with the list you built. I'd recommend more Scarabs, 3x5-8. I'd also drop the Wraiths. MWs are indeed awesome against SW, but you're also paying for an elite melee unit that is going to get eaten by your opponent's elite melee units. If you're a dick you won't tell your opponent about your C'tan exploding and will deal a ton of MWs that way, hopefully you won't feel bad like I did when I accidentally pulled an explosion out my ass after forgetting to inform my opponent. But if your opponent is informed I don't think a C'tan will pull back its points. Just throw cheap wounds at his expensive high-ap multi-dmg weapons and make him cry with your troops' shooting.
Curious79 wrote: So sorry what am I doing wrong with this spoiler
You need to press the "spoiler" button twice. Once at the beginning of what you want to hide, and once at the end. Alternatively you can just highlight all the text you want hidden and press the button once, it'll automatically take care of the tags for you then.
Like so:
Spoiler:
Try this split for maximum CP with what you've got-
... though I think you may have made a mistake with your math, as the list you initially posted comes out to 2623.
Also, if you had three Heavy Support things you could throw in, this could easily become a Brigade (and at that point level, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't try). Don't suppose you have any Doomsday Arks on hand, do you? Or even just some spare Heavy Destroyers? Really the best bet would be some DDAs. With that Stalker in the list they're going to love it. Plus, with ONLY the Stalker in the list, it's probably going to die turn one, as all your opponents anti tank will be targeting it.
Curious79 wrote: So sorry what am I doing wrong with this spoiler
You need to press the "spoiler" button twice. Once at the beginning of what you want to hide, and once at the end. Alternatively you can just highlight all the text you want hidden and press the button once, it'll automatically take care of the tags for you then.
Like so:
Spoiler:
Try this split for maximum CP with what you've got-
... though I think you may have made a mistake with your math, as the list you initially posted comes out to 2623.
Also, if you had three Heavy Support things you could throw in, this could easily become a Brigade (and at that point level, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't try). Don't suppose you have any Doomsday Arks on hand, do you? Or even just some spare Heavy Destroyers? Really the best bet would be some DDAs. With that Stalker in the list they're going to love it. Plus, with ONLY the Stalker in the list, it's probably going to die turn one, as all your opponents anti tank will be targeting it.
Yeah man I am very close to a brigade my opponent has been kind to let me proxy 5 HD for normal as I have 6 normal and 5 HD and DL I do have 2 Doomsday Arks I could be cheeky and proxy the DL for a HD I hate doing it just not flush right now
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also are Stormlord and Orikan needed in the list my thinking was MWBD 3 times the 1 shot Mortal wounds thing and Orikan for slight Melee protection for troops along with RP and I the off chance he gets big I will be happy if I go normal then I could get a brigade if I drop to 3 Immortal squads not sure if I want to that aaaaaaahhhhhhh! I have brain
Automatically Appended Next Post: Right I managed it got a Brigade whether it’s the right call for against this 3++ invasion to sure had to drop a few things any advice would be much appreciated
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 240pts]
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Heavy Destroyers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
Heavy Destroyers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
+++
6 Sautekh Destroyers Veil with Chrono-tek.
5 Nephrekh Destroyers deepstrike.
Sautekh Cloak-tek stays with DDAs Imotekh advances with Immortals
Nice I was thinking along thoughs lines my worry is there isn’t enough scarabs to halt his advance and the MWBD will be watered down due to the smaller units of immortals the advantage is it will allow me to fall back and shoot with another unit, I really do like the idea of the blowing up CTan that would be funny as he loves to get into Melee as soon as no matter what
Another question from the noob here who is my objective grabbers then are the destroyers pinging onto them and the tomb blades I put in the deathmarks really just to ping when he deep strikes likewise the Flayed Ones as back line protection and if I can get them to come in 12” from the big man then all the better
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 240pts]
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Heavy Destroyers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
Heavy Destroyers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
So I was thinking I could drop either the Doomsday Ark or the Tomb blades for the transcendent CTan purely because I am up against so many 3++ and need Mortal wounds then fill with scarabs or the Stalker but in this build with so many min troops it’s going to help and then you have the issue of if you drop either the Doom or the Stalker then it leaves one massive target for the enemy my game is first thing tomorrow any thoughts peepz?? Or just leave the hallowed Brigade and go with batt and outrider
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quick question about MWBD plus method destruct and Tesla I am sure it’s prob been covered does this mean it explodes on 4’s!!!!!
Bah, turns out you cannot re-roll the T. C'tans random upgrades, since it is before the battle and you cannot use a re-roll there since CA.
Well, that settles it for me, the Nightbringer is officially better than the T. C'tan. His only hope was rolling for his upgrades and getting at least a 1 or a 2, which was doable since you were allowed to re-roll both dice. But yea, not anymore....
+++
6 Sautekh Destroyers Veil with Chrono-tek.
5 Nephrekh Destroyers deepstrike.
Sautekh Cloak-tek stays with DDAs Imotekh advances with Immortals
Nice I was thinking along thoughs lines my worry is there isn’t enough scarabs to halt his advance and the MWBD will be watered down due to the smaller units of immortals the advantage is it will allow me to fall back and shoot with another unit, I really do like the idea of the blowing up CTan that would be funny as he loves to get into Melee as soon as no matter what
Another question from the noob here who is my objective grabbers then are the destroyers pinging onto them and the tomb blades I put in the deathmarks really just to ping when he deep strikes likewise the Flayed Ones as back line protection and if I can get them to come in 12” from the big man then all the better
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 240pts]
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Heavy Destroyers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
Heavy Destroyers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
So I was thinking I could drop either the Doomsday Ark or the Tomb blades for the transcendent CTan purely because I am up against so many 3++ and need Mortal wounds then fill with scarabs or the Stalker but in this build with so many min troops it’s going to help and then you have the issue of if you drop either the Doom or the Stalker then it leaves one massive target for the enemy my game is first thing tomorrow any thoughts peepz?? Or just leave the hallowed Brigade and go with batt and outrider
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quick question about MWBD plus method destruct and Tesla I am sure it’s prob been covered does this mean it explodes on 4’s!!!!!
Yes it exploded on 4s BUT your BS starting at 3+ is already maxed out, the additional +1 doesn't help that much anymore.
Much better to spread the +1 around if you can, letting another Tesla unit get effectively BS2+ and 5+ Tesla.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doctoralex wrote: Bah, turns out you cannot re-roll the T. C'tans random upgrades, since it is before the battle and you cannot use a re-roll there since CA.
Well, that settles it for me, the Nightbringer is officially better than the T. C'tan. His only hope was rolling for his upgrades and getting at least a 1 or a 2, which was doable since you were allowed to re-roll both dice. But yea, not anymore....
Also you cannot reroll if you roll two identical, right? (For the T Ctan)
Doctoralex wrote: Bah, turns out you cannot re-roll the T. C'tans random upgrades, since it is before the battle and you cannot use a re-roll there since CA.
Of course you can re-roll. What makes you think you cant ? Your Ctan has nothing to do with mission related rolls.
So, I have been messing around with a unit of 9 Tomb Blades With P.Beamers and upgrades and they are pretty amazing for what I want them to do. I have been using them to grab/hold/rob 2 objectives a turn, a Distraction Carnifex and to kill GEQ type units for the 1st few turns.
While they are not as deadly as Tesla and Gauss they can still pack a punch. After Turn 3 TBs are basically unkillable.
This is my current list that's i plan to use until the 2nd big FAQ and for tournaments
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the "competitive" version of the Nephrek battalion list:
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion:
Overlord + HPS Cryptek + Veil
10x Tesla Imms
10x Tesla Imms
10x Tesla Imms
6x Destroyers
6x Destroyers
Sautekh Spearhead:
Lord + HPS, Walord, Hyperlogical Strategist
DDA DDA DDA
1932pts, 9CP.
Deepstrike the Destroyers and up to 2 units of Immortals.
Yeah it's basically the same list that's been posted many times already.
68pts left over. A unit of 5 Scarabs? Upgrades for the HQs?
Dropping one Immortal would give enough points to make the Overlord a CCB- You really want to be able to get those Immortals moving 12" and hitting normally with MWBD the turn after they arrive.
Funny i played the exact same list yesterday at a somewhat major regional tournament. Excepts my destroyers where in a nephrek outrider and my DDA where in my sautekh bataillon. We where not that many, but there are many pros here including some that are on the canadian ETC team and a guy who keep winning the adepticon team turnament. So this is hard training with real broken lists.
Overall:
1- DDA where too volatile. Started well in game 1 (5-6 shots each) and blasted some tanks. On game 2 and 3 average shot was 2-3.
2- 3X DDA proved too much for the local meta. Opponents i faced didn,t have enough big targets to fully exploit my DDAs. 20 rapid fire shot proved useless most of the time, cause it usually gak at big targets since my Tesla immo already cleared the infantry.
3- I will switch 1 DDA for 3X heavy destroyers to provide some certainty in shots.
4- Destroyers: did as expectected. First unit alpha with Cryptek VoD, usually end up in cover on a far flank and start blasting away 2-3 wound units, or big target my DDA didn't blow off. 50% of time they live a 2nd round and get some good RP. 2nd unit usually deepstrike more agressively, kills and get killed.
4- 3X immortals is too much. You got to get them in blob with an overlord to be fully effective. It's bad to grab objectives. 2 units max.
I finished 1-2, 2nd game i just badly played and spent a whole round trying to bring down tyrants, who soaked all my shots with their 4++ saves!!! I was toasted. 3rd game i just played vs a Tzeentch pro, got ramed up my ass prestty bad.
So this list is the best offensive necron list. But you need to alpha and always kill more than you get killed for it to succeed. Plus it will be bad for objective grabbing, unless you waste precious destroyers units to go on non-optimal positions just to grab objectives or get immortals out of overlord range.
A) Need 1 warrior units.
B) Need more scarabs for deepstrike /charge protection.
C) Tomb blades would be nice for objective chasing.
D) heavy destroyers less volatile than DDA, so mix and match here.
E) have to pay with something, perhaps remove 1 destro unit and the whole nephrek thing, keep the VoD destroyer unit.
F) As far as i can tell, many use gakky units (cultists) to camp on objective, and i was thinking small 5X flayed ones, who can autonomously pop at 9'', and perhaps some can successfylly charge, would be a nice counter to those.
Can we just take a minute to admire the length of this thread. It's only been a couple months at most and the thread is longer than most others already.
I feel like Scarabs are better than both Immortals and Destroyers at objective getting because they are faster and cheaper than immortals and cost much less per wound than destroyers, the rule of three hurts a bit because ideally having 3 min size squads would be great for objectives while you probably still want a large group or two to screen and deny deep strike.
I've always been pleased with my Scarabs and rarely play without a pile of them but ymmv.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: Can we just take a minute to admire the length of this thread. It's only been a couple months at most and the thread is longer than most others already.
iGuy91 wrote: I'd like to think here for a moment. Knowing your weaknesses as a whole is important to improving your game.
What would you say is the biggest weaknesses the Necron codex possesses?
I'd say lack of Psychic Defense or Presence hurts
As well as a lack of a GEQ-level unit to hold objectives while heavy hitters do the killing.
Thoughts?
I honestly say our biggest weakness is the point cost of all our units.
Back when I played IG, I always had some points left after making the core of my army. I'd slap a few extra weapons on my tanks or infantry... but now, I feel like im constantly starving for points to get a decent-working army!
iGuy91 wrote: I'd like to think here for a moment. Knowing your weaknesses as a whole is important to improving your game.
What would you say is the biggest weaknesses the Necron codex possesses?
I'd say lack of Psychic Defense or Presence hurts
As well as a lack of a GEQ-level unit to hold objectives while heavy hitters do the killing.
Thoughts?
I would say our main weakness is that RP is unreliable at best, and it is baked into our points costs. I don't think any other army special rule with ways to outright deny it like we have to deal with. The main problem comes from the higher point costs due to this rule on so many of our units. Either RP should be revamped or the points costs associated with it need to be lowered or both.
We also do not have a lot of high powered, high damage weapons. We really only have DDAs and Destroyers that fill that role.
These are by far the biggest issue I see with our codex. It has led to the problem of we have a handful of very efficient units, and then about 70% of the rest of the dex is pretty bad.
The weird thing is, this weakness was one of the main issues the army had in its old 3rd/4th ed incarnation (outside of being outdated and limited in unit choices). They fixed that in 5th, but seeminly went back to the old version that theyd already seen didnt work... Not really sure why. :/
Tyr13 wrote: The weird thing is, this weakness was one of the main issues the army had in its old 3rd/4th ed incarnation (outside of being outdated and limited in unit choices). They fixed that in 5th, but seeminly went back to the old version that theyd already seen didnt work... Not really sure why. :/
Yeah, warriors really seem like a 8-9 point model but because they can always come back they get bloated to 12. I'd rather have FnP again, it was much better. I get a lot of cheap wins because people leave one destroyer alive next to crypteks and split fire thinking they can obviously kill off the last one with the final shots only for 4-5 to get back up, which makes them act like my army is broken so I get a lot of complaints. Going back to FnP would be better in most situations (because good players focus fire Necrons) and I never see anyone complain about Death Guard having army wide FnP.
You think wrong. Monoliths can't DS within 12", can't move more than 6" and has nothing worth doing within 12" of an enemy unit. Monoliths are criminally overcosted, hardly any firepower or survivablity for their cost and very little mobility. Everything good about it comes at the cost of CP that could be used to buff the Destroyers that aren't in your list.
It was just a spit balling starter place homie, not an end all be all.
I don't think they are "criminally overcosted," though, I think that's a bit of an overstatement. Compared to a TVault which is 25% more expensive they have a reasonable amount of firepower and resilience, added to the fact that they can bring units into rapid fire or charge range more readily.
However, if you think they have "nothing worth doing within 12"" then I think you are missing the boat entirely with them. A.), if they are Mephirit, which I think is likely their best option, then they definitly want to be close, and B.) the best way to get mileage out of them is absolutely using them to get RF guns and CC units close to the enemy. If you aren't using the portal at all then yes, they could be considered "criminally overcosted" but that's only because you are willfully omitting one of their key capabilities.
That being said, the Beta rules regarding DS aren't doing them in favors, currently. Counting them against the 50% power level and not allowing them to DS outside of the deployment zone on turn one are two really imbalanced nerfs to them. Ideally, you either DS them turn one and drop your cargo turn 2, or you can hold them till 2 with enough carge to drop T3 to make the whole endeavor worth it. If the final ruling of the beta rules disallow both options then I would agree with you, they just wouldn't work correctly in a competitive setting. They also need to clear up the fact that you absolutely should be able to assault out of them, as was the initial intention.
In the meantime, I would recommend all Necron players to ask GW to give the GSC exception to Monos. They need it.
We also do not have a lot of high powered, high damage weapons. We really only have DDAs and Destroyers that fill that role.
If i look in my codex i see 12 guns that have S7 and higher.
It is unreliable, as it can be negated completely. Any competent player knows this, and will completely wipe out the critical units, to deny RP. It's really not that hard to grasp this, and has been a major topic of discussion. How many games have posters in this thread discussed that they drop destroyers, but they almost never survive to use their RP? Often. This is an issue because the increased points are baked into the units, weather they can end up using the rule or not.
How many of those higher damage weapons are on efficient platforms? Are you going to try to imply that the Doom Scythe is going to be worth taking for ti's weapon? Or the Triarch Stalker with a HGC? The answer is no. We have very limited efficient high strength, high damage weapons.
We also do not have a lot of high powered, high damage weapons. We really only have DDAs and Destroyers that fill that role.
If i look in my codex i see 12 guns that have S7 and higher.
It is unreliable, as it can be negated completely. Any competent player knows this, and will completely wipe out the critical units, to deny RP. It's really not that hard to grasp this, and has been a major topic of discussion. How many games have posters in this thread discussed that they drop destroyers, but they almost never survive to use their RP? Often. This is an issue because the increased points are baked into the units, weather they can end up using the rule or not.
How many of those higher damage weapons are on efficient platforms? Are you going to try to imply that the Doom Scythe is going to be worth taking for ti's weapon? Or the Triarch Stalker with a HGC? The answer is no. We have very limited efficient high strength, high damage weapons.
Yeah also a bunch of S7 tesla weapons isn't really what he's talking about I guess
iGuy91 wrote: I'd like to think here for a moment. Knowing your weaknesses as a whole is important to improving your game.
What would you say is the biggest weaknesses the Necron codex possesses?
I'd say lack of Psychic Defense or Presence hurts
As well as a lack of a GEQ-level unit to hold objectives while heavy hitters do the killing.
Thoughts?
Nah psychic defence is overrated, my opponents are stupidly bad at rolling for their psychic powers, like 50% success rate and 10% perils rate bad, I'm totally fine. I don't think Necrons have weaknesses after the buffs to HDs and DDAs. Individual lists do, like Mephrit tesla spam will cry against Nids and your opponent has to tailor their list to lose against Kutlakh it seems, but we have enough widely different good units that we can make a list to counter any one thing. Necrons are doing quite alright in tournaments so I think we're in a really good spot, Flayed Ones, Lychguard and Triarch Praetorians have never been meta, AB is better than it was in 7th, C'tan have been amazing all of 8th. Tesseract Vault might be too good, but it's also Titanic, when IK comes out Macro weapons will become more popular and the Tesseract Vault should suffer.
I played a 2k game against Nids in ITC mission #4. He had 40 Genestealers, Swarmlord, 18 Hive Guard and a few other things. I had a Maynarkh (Novokh) Outrider with Kutlakh WL (Conqueror), Lord (Sword/Orb) Relic (Orb of Eternity), 2x10 Lychguard, 6 Scarabs, 3 Scarabs, 6 Destroyers, Mephrit Battalion with Anrakyr, Szeras, 10 Tesla Immortals, 5 Gauss Immortals, 6 Gauss Immortals. I was able to delete his melee but he picked off all units before I was able to get to his ranged units. AP -4 is terrible against 5+ invul, the fact I did okay makes me want to try Novokh Lychguard some more, although I think I'm done with Kutlakh. He's trash. Also done with Orb of Eternity, 4 Destroyers fail 5+ RP, use OoE, get 1 Destroyer back, give me a break.
I also played a 1k game with a Transcendent C'tan (randomly got cosmic tyrant) and the Deceiver against an AM list with three Gorgon artillery tanks, he had first turn and I still didn't lose a single unit in the entire game and did somewhere around 30 MWs with the two C'tan, which sounds like a lot but I was actually really unlucky, spent all my 4 CP on my powers and I think I failed 3 of the re-rolls to do D3 MWs on 4+.
Tyr13 wrote: The weird thing is, this weakness was one of the main issues the army had in its old 3rd/4th ed incarnation (outside of being outdated and limited in unit choices). They fixed that in 5th, but seeminly went back to the old version that theyd already seen didnt work... Not really sure why. :/
Yeah, warriors really seem like a 8-9 point model but because they can always come back they get bloated to 12.
Oh yeah, Space Marine with -1 Sv and -1 APLd 10 instead of 8 ATSKNF is worth 66% of the cost of a Space Marine, wait what? That's ignoring the rule you're complaining is increasing the cost, which you basically get for free. No the unfair thing is that we don't get transports, Warriors seem bad because they don't have any viable transports, because the Monolith is UP.
You think wrong. Monoliths can't DS within 12", can't move more than 6" and has nothing worth doing within 12" of an enemy unit. Monoliths are criminally overcosted, hardly any firepower or survivablity for their cost and very little mobility. Everything good about it comes at the cost of CP that could be used to buff the Destroyers that aren't in your list.
It was just a spit balling starter place homie, not an end all be all.
I don't think they are "criminally overcosted," though, I think that's a bit of an overstatement. Compared to a TVault which is 25% more expensive they have a reasonable amount of firepower and resilience, added to the fact that they can bring units into rapid fire or charge range more readily.
However, if you think they have "nothing worth doing within 12"" then I think you are missing the boat entirely with them. A.), if they are Mephirit, which I think is likely their best option, then they definitly want to be close, and B.) the best way to get mileage out of them is absolutely using them to get RF guns and CC units close to the enemy. If you aren't using the portal at all then yes, they could be considered "criminally overcosted" but that's only because you are willfully omitting one of their key capabilities.
That being said, the Beta rules regarding DS aren't doing them in favors, currently. Counting them against the 50% power level and not allowing them to DS outside of the deployment zone on turn one are two really imbalanced nerfs to them. Ideally, you either DS them turn one and drop your cargo turn 2, or you can hold them till 2 with enough carge to drop T3 to make the whole endeavor worth it. If the final ruling of the beta rules disallow both options then I would agree with you, they just wouldn't work correctly in a competitive setting. They also need to clear up the fact that you absolutely should be able to assault out of them, as was the initial intention.
In the meantime, I would recommend all Necron players to ask GW to give the GSC exception to Monos. They need it.
Didn't mean any offence buddy. I'm just salty about Monoliths still not being a core part of Necron lists which I think everyone can agree they're not. I'll buy all the new gak, I'll get a couple of the new Crypteks, I might get some FW, but no matter what I want to field an average of 1 Monolith (mostly 2) each game and I'd be stabbing myself in the foot more than I'm willing to by doing so. You're definitely wrong about them not being criminally overcosted (with the beta rules), but I don't know how many times you fielded Monoliths pre and post codex? If you've actually made your list work a couple of times I'll try it, but I don't think your theory is sound, so unless you have practice to back it up I won't believe in your theory.
You're ignoring the fact that if they get destroyed all units inside are immediately destroyed. Paying 2 CP to transport 3 units is barely worth it when you consider what other factions get or what you can achieve with a Deceiver and a VoD, as I said all the good things they do is based on using CP and Lychguard aren't that great whether you Deceiver/VoD or use a Monolith.
I'm not sure why you say you cannot charge out of them?
Guys who makes a better leader for a Nephrekh outrider detachment? I can't decide between the Destroyer Lord with Nanoscarab Casket or CCB with Lightning Field. There's only the cost of a unit of Scarabs between them so I'm not too worried about the cost. I'm leaning towards the CCB because it has better damage output, wave of command for the destroyers etc. But I've heard good things about the ghetto celestine, any opinions?
Towenaar wrote: Guys who makes a better leader for a Nephrekh outrider detachment? I can't decide between the Destroyer Lord with Nanoscarab Casket or CCB with Lightning Field. There's only the cost of a unit of Scarabs between them so I'm not too worried about the cost. I'm leaning towards the CCB because it has better damage output, wave of command for the destroyers etc. But I've heard good things about the ghetto celestine, any opinions?
Keep in mind that with the CCB as Nephrek he only gets to command Nephrek infantry, so only destroyers in said detachment.
iGuy91 wrote: I'd like to think here for a moment. Knowing your weaknesses as a whole is important to improving your game.
What would you say is the biggest weaknesses the Necron codex possesses?
I'd say lack of Psychic Defense or Presence hurts
As well as a lack of a GEQ-level unit to hold objectives while heavy hitters do the killing.
Thoughts?
The biggest thing for me without going ForgeWorld Arks is a reliable T7 T8 tank busting unit so what’s the choices
Monolith too squishy for the points hates Plasma Lascannon etc
DDA good for points depend on good dice
HD how many to take you would need to waste ex term strat on them you could lose a normal destroyer for one that’s not really going to cut it
Any ideas???
I have been working on CC strategy that gets round the beta deepstrike is without the deceiver think it’s cheaper maybe and gets a 1st turn charge with warsythe Lychguard can’t post it now will get it on for your thoughts later
Oh yeah, Space Marine with -1 Sv and -1 APLd 10 instead of 8 ATSKNF is worth 66% of the cost of a Space Marine, wait what? That's ignoring the rule you're complaining is increasing the cost, which you basically get for free. No the unfair thing is that we don't get transports, Warriors seem bad because they don't have any viable transports, because the Monolith is UP.
Comparing in isolation like that is silly. When comparing points between codices you have to take into account what else is avalible. Necrons can only take warriors and scarabs as cheap units - SM have access to 5+ other codices. SM units have loads of weapon options, warriors have none. And then as you yourself say, warriors have no good delivery mechanisms. So yes, making warriors cheaper seems perfectly reasonable. I would have said 10pts was good, but maybe 8 is closer to what they need.
Oh yeah, Space Marine with -1 Sv and -1 APLd 10 instead of 8 ATSKNF is worth 66% of the cost of a Space Marine, wait what? That's ignoring the rule you're complaining is increasing the cost, which you basically get for free. No the unfair thing is that we don't get transports, Warriors seem bad because they don't have any viable transports, because the Monolith is UP.
Comparing in isolation like that is silly. When comparing points between codices you have to take into account what else is avalible. Necrons can only take warriors and scarabs as cheap units - SM have access to 5+ other codices. SM units have loads of weapon options, warriors have none. And then as you yourself say, warriors have no good delivery mechanisms. So yes, making warriors cheaper seems perfectly reasonable. I would have said 10pts was good, but maybe 8 is closer to what they need.
10ppm warriors might be fair. in fact I think both Tac / Assault marines and Necron Warriors should be at
10ppm range. However 8ppm is tooooo over the top. A Necron Warriors is in every aspect much better than 2 Guardsmen added together, maybe even without RP.
Oh yeah, Space Marine with -1 Sv and -1 APLd 10 instead of 8 ATSKNF is worth 66% of the cost of a Space Marine, wait what? That's ignoring the rule you're complaining is increasing the cost, which you basically get for free. No the unfair thing is that we don't get transports, Warriors seem bad because they don't have any viable transports, because the Monolith is UP.
Comparing in isolation like that is silly. When comparing points between codices you have to take into account what else is avalible. Necrons can only take warriors and scarabs as cheap units - SM have access to 5+ other codices. SM units have loads of weapon options, warriors have none. And then as you yourself say, warriors have no good delivery mechanisms. So yes, making warriors cheaper seems perfectly reasonable. I would have said 10pts was good, but maybe 8 is closer to what they need.
Yeah the whole transport thing bugs me it would be good to even be able to immortals in a ghost ark even if didn’t benefit from the RP rule also being able to get an HQ to support say a deepstriking unit for CC Eg. The Traveller and Lychguard takes crazy schemes pionts and cp marines here all your re-rolls can happen because their HQs can DS as well sorry rant over
+++
6 Sautekh Destroyers Veil with Chrono-tek.
5 Nephrekh Destroyers deepstrike.
Sautekh Cloak-tek stays with DDAs Imotekh advances with Immortals
Nice I was thinking along thoughs lines my worry is there isn’t enough scarabs to halt his advance and the MWBD will be watered down due to the smaller units of immortals the advantage is it will allow me to fall back and shoot with another unit, I really do like the idea of the blowing up CTan that would be funny as he loves to get into Melee as soon as no matter what
Another question from the noob here who is my objective grabbers then are the destroyers pinging onto them and the tomb blades I put in the deathmarks really just to ping when he deep strikes likewise the Flayed Ones as back line protection and if I can get them to come in 12” from the big man then all the better
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 240pts]
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Heavy Destroyers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
Heavy Destroyers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
So I was thinking I could drop either the Doomsday Ark or the Tomb blades for the transcendent CTan purely because I am up against so many 3++ and need Mortal wounds then fill with scarabs or the Stalker but in this build with so many min troops it’s going to help and then you have the issue of if you drop either the Doom or the Stalker then it leaves one massive target for the enemy my game is first thing tomorrow any thoughts peepz?? Or just leave the hallowed Brigade and go with batt and outrider
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quick question about MWBD plus method destruct and Tesla I am sure it’s prob been covered does this mean it explodes on 4’s!!!!!
So had my game against the 3++ craziness Space Wolves and short story is he had 4 models left !!!!!! So eventually I went with a sole Sautekh Brigade dropped the tomb blades the Stalker the heavy destroyers and took 2 DDA and transcendent CTan dropped a Cryptek and had Stormlord and another Overlord made up the pionts with scarabs I think I dropped to a 5&6 destroyers I rolled way over average for getting my CP back that is real funny when it happens Tesla was popping all over the place exploding and RP scarabs sooo funny as well there goes another thunderwolf to a suicide scarab
I have been debating weather or not to make it Novokh and swap the CCB for Anrakyr or keep it mephrit, but the warriors are unlikely to reach combat in a timely manner so holding the middle and letting the DLord Blade wing wrap up one of the flanks seems like a better option.
Not sure of I should get another relic to the CCB or shave off more points for wargear for the blades
Plan:
Veil up in prioritized order:
Warriors, wraiths, ??
Ghost ark and CCB advances up to connect with the warriors midfield. Cryptek veils up one unit of warriors. Ghost ark unloads warriors where needed.
Didn't mean any offence buddy. I'm just salty about Monoliths still not being a core part of Necron lists which I think everyone can agree they're not. I'll buy all the new gak, I'll get a couple of the new Crypteks, I might get some FW, but no matter what I want to field an average of 1 Monolith (mostly 2) each game and I'd be stabbing myself in the foot more than I'm willing to by doing so. You're definitely wrong about them not being criminally overcosted (with the beta rules), but I don't know how many times you fielded Monoliths pre and post codex? If you've actually made your list work a couple of times I'll try it, but I don't think your theory is sound, so unless you have practice to back it up I won't believe in your theory.
Outside of a friendly game I haven't use it in 8th, yet. Just mostly glancing over it and theory crafting on how to unlock it's potential. I've had my 2 for so long the rust on them is starting to be real, though, lol.
I certainly understand people's hesitation with them, but I see some potential, still.
You're ignoring the fact that if they get destroyed all units inside are immediately destroyed.
I'm not, I just know the CP can mitigate that...
Paying 2 CP to transport 3 units is barely worth it when you consider what other factions get or what you can achieve with a Deceiver and a VoD, as I said all the good things they do is based on using CP and Lychguard aren't that great whether you Deceiver/VoD or use a Monolith.
I've found that it's pretty easy to get Crons CP in droves, so I don't find that much of an issue. It's a resource we can easily have more then we really need of.
Also, my thinking would to be use them in conjunction with at the very least Veil, if not also Grand Illusion. Bring the whole kit and kabbudle and shove your whole list in their face.
I'm not sure why you say you cannot charge out of them?
You absolutely are suppose to be able to, but some RAWtards are arguing otherwise. Nobody I play with is playing it that way, but I've certainly seen some argue on the internet that you can't.
So I wanted to discuss whether to take 3x min troops + HQ just for the battalion CP, or invest some more into them and make them into a proper part of your army.
The way I see it is as follows;
Troops as tax: Cost: 422 points. This consists of 3x 5 Immortals /w Tesla, a Cryptek and an Overlord, all with minimal/no equipment.
So this is the 'cheapest' way to get a battalion. However, the 5 man Immortal squads aren't going to be doing much apart from sitting on objectives and providing medicore fire support. a 5 man squad isn't worth MWBD anyway.
On top of that, the Overlord and the Cryptek are sup-optimal when it comes to supporting the main powerhouses of our army (AKA Destroyers, DDA's, Wraiths & Tomb Blades).
The other option is this:
Troops filled out: Cost: 762 points. Now it's 3x 10 Immortals, a Cryptek & Overlord /w Staff of Light and 2x3 Scarabs.
Now the troops can actually join the front and get proper support by the two HQ's. However, with them going forward we need new units to sit on the backline points, hence two units of Scarabs.
So, what do you guys think is better? 422 points of meh troops that provide some fire support, and some wasted HQ's?
Or 762 points of a proper HQ + troops core, but less points for our powerful units.
DarknessEternal wrote: Filled out Troops. Immortals are quite dangerous with MWBD and a Stratagem.
You have to take them, make them useful.
Agreed, 3x10 is the way to roll. Its the core of every Necron list I run. My infantry are pretty much always left alone while my opponent tries to focus destroyers, tomb blades, or wraiths. Lets the immortals do a lion's share of the killing for me.
DarknessEternal wrote: Filled out Troops. Immortals are quite dangerous with MWBD and a Stratagem.
You have to take them, make them useful.
Agreed, 3x10 is the way to roll. Its the core of every Necron list I run. My infantry are pretty much always left alone while my opponent tries to focus destroyers, tomb blades, or wraiths. Lets the immortals do a lion's share of the killing for me.
A horde of Tzaantch Flamer kills Immortals with ease.
DarknessEternal wrote: Filled out Troops. Immortals are quite dangerous with MWBD and a Stratagem.
You have to take them, make them useful.
Agreed, 3x10 is the way to roll. Its the core of every Necron list I run. My infantry are pretty much always left alone while my opponent tries to focus destroyers, tomb blades, or wraiths. Lets the immortals do a lion's share of the killing for me.
A horde of Tzaantch Flamer kills Immortals with ease.
If you run with that reasoning, everything has a hard counter unit in the game. Might as well not play.
Immortals would kill them right back in droves to be fair. With a decent screen, I don't see why they would. All the smites would get wasted on scarabs anyway, and their shooting attack is pretty weak...STR3, Assault 2? Meh.
DarknessEternal wrote: Filled out Troops. Immortals are quite dangerous with MWBD and a Stratagem.
You have to take them, make them useful.
Agreed, 3x10 is the way to roll. Its the core of every Necron list I run. My infantry are pretty much always left alone while my opponent tries to focus destroyers, tomb blades, or wraiths. Lets the immortals do a lion's share of the killing for me.
A horde of Tzaantch Flamer kills Immortals with ease.
If you run with that reasoning, everything has a hard counter unit in the game. Might as well not play.
Immortals would kill them right back in droves to be fair. With a decent screen, I don't see why they would. All the smites would get wasted on scarabs anyway, and their shooting attack is pretty weak...STR3, Assault 2? Meh.
Their shooting is very strong. 12" Str User AP-1 D6 auto hit, with a herald nearby they will be Str 5 and psychic power gives them +1 to wound. By math a unit of 9 kills 10 Immortals outright with just a Herald standing at their back.
In reply 10 Immortals with MWBD buff spit out 30 hits, 20 Wounds on Flamer, 10 goes through 4++, killing 5 of them. If they pop the stratagem to make them 3++, then only 3 dead.
Sorry might be a bit emotional at first as still in the shock of my last game as my opponent kills 1/3 of my Necron army with a single squad of 9 Tzeentch Flamers over the game. And laugh off my basically whole armies shooting back even with Methodical Destruction and MWBD. Yes they are expensive at 30ppm. Yes it may be a bit of problem of dices as my opponent consistently score 40+ hits and 30+ wounds with those Flamers in first 2 turns and only failed less than 12 inv saves throughout the game for his flamers (3 flamers lived till end game), but it shows that they are one of the powerful unit we need to pay attention to.
Lol. Tzeentch flamers suck and see no competitive play. They're squishy and have very short range. So you can easily screen them out by just hanging back until your opponent's turn 3.
Doctoralex wrote: So I wanted to discuss whether to take 3x min troops + HQ just for the battalion CP, or invest some more into them and make them into a proper part of your army.
Actually, I was *just* experimenting with that idea.
I came up with a double battalion that had six 9x Immortal units with 3x Overlords + Imotekh to be able to MWBD every single one of them via Pharons Will. Considering adding a regular Lord for extra to-wound killiness. Was able to fit some DDAs and Scarabs, too.
I don't have that many Immortals on hand so I can't really test it, but if anyone else wants to try-
I toyed with another variation that had four big sized Immortals and two min sized (for babysitting) that had no Imotekh and one less DDA so it could fit a unit of Destroyers in, too. Don't know which would be better-
Oh yeah, Space Marine with -1 Sv and -1 APLd 10 instead of 8 ATSKNF is worth 66% of the cost of a Space Marine, wait what? That's ignoring the rule you're complaining is increasing the cost, which you basically get for free. No the unfair thing is that we don't get transports, Warriors seem bad because they don't have any viable transports, because the Monolith is UP.
I think Tactical Marines are overcosted as well. People should take intercessors or immortals if they want a troop that can fight and still be a troop. Necrons don't have scouts to make up for their terrible troops though. The problem is cheap troops are so far superior to Tactical Marines equivalent models in a match where anyone can think beyond "wow one space marines can sure beat up a guardsmen". You're honestly just deluding yourself if you think a warrior is worth more than two guardsmen on anything but a straight "can fight" level, which is meaningless as I mentioned before. This is why almost every tournament army is just cheap ass troops and the best units after that.
A horde of Tzaantch Flamer kills Immortals with ease.
Not in reality. Immortals will shoot first and kill half of that squad, so who cares.
The Flamers can deepstrike into shooting range, guaranteeing them first shot (from turn 2 onwards and assuming you can't screen your immortals from every direction - which you are unlikely to do for troops).
I also play daemons though, and the flamers have not so far impressed me with their killing power. Maybe more of them are needed. An equivalent points value of flamers (6) deepstriking in for first shot but otherwise unsupported would kill about half of a squad of 10 immortals. Of course as a daemon player I could buff them with a herald, warp surge, +1 to wound psychic power, more flamers etc. but I am shoving a large investment to kill off a minor troops squad...I could just charge them with 4 greater daemons...
A horde of Tzaantch Flamer kills Immortals with ease.
Not in reality. Immortals will shoot first and kill half of that squad, so who cares.
The Flamers can deepstrike into shooting range, guaranteeing them first shot (from turn 2 onwards and assuming you can't screen your immortals from every direction - which you are unlikely to do for troops).
I also play daemons though, and the flamers have not so far impressed me with their killing power. Maybe more of them are needed. An equivalent points value of flamers (6) deepstriking in for first shot but otherwise unsupported would kill about half of a squad of 10 immortals. Of course as a daemon player I could buff them with a herald, warp surge, +1 to wound psychic power, more flamers etc. but I am shoving a large investment to kill off a minor troops squad...I could just charge them with 4 greater daemons...
A horde of Tzaantch Flamer kills Immortals with ease.
Not in reality. Immortals will shoot first and kill half of that squad, so who cares.
The Flamers can deepstrike into shooting range, guaranteeing them first shot (from turn 2 onwards and assuming you can't screen your immortals from every direction - which you are unlikely to do for troops).
I also play daemons though, and the flamers have not so far impressed me with their killing power. Maybe more of them are needed. An equivalent points value of flamers (6) deepstriking in for first shot but otherwise unsupported would kill about half of a squad of 10 immortals. Of course as a daemon player I could buff them with a herald, warp surge, +1 to wound psychic power, more flamers etc. but I am shoving a large investment to kill off a minor troops squad...I could just charge them with 4 greater daemons...
Mark.
Could scarabs succesfully tie them up in combat?
They fly and their overwatch is 12" D6 auto hit. I seriously doubt the scarab could make the charge and do somthing meaningful.
Raxxamous wrote: I think Tactical Marines are overcosted as well. People should take intercessors or immortals if they want a troop that can fight and still be a troop. Necrons don't have scouts to make up for their terrible troops though. The problem is cheap troops are so far superior to Tactical Marines equivalent models in a match where anyone can think beyond "wow one space marines can sure beat up a guardsmen". You're honestly just deluding yourself if you think a warrior is worth more than two guardsmen on anything but a straight "can fight" level, which is meaningless as I mentioned before. This is why almost every tournament army is just cheap ass troops and the best units after that.
Tacs have been used in top 3 lists in 8th, intercessors haven't. I never said that a list featuring two big Warriors blobs is going to do well against a Guard list. But I happen to think that a Guardsmen is worth more than 4 pts, what is a Lychguard going to cost in a game where a Guardsman costs 4? 25 pts for a Lychguard? 15? Balance is found in the middle, not at the top. Tac squads are pretty okay and Necron Warriors are pretty okay as well. I think Necron Strats should have been better to reflect the high cost of our detachments and our inability to abuse allies, but that comes back to Guardsmen being OP, but part of the problem is the ITC guys removing all the value in having a low-drop army, leaving the 20 drop armies with a 40% chance of going first instead of 17%.
A horde of Tzaantch Flamer kills Immortals with ease.
Not in reality. Immortals will shoot first and kill half of that squad, so who cares.
The Flamers can deepstrike into shooting range, guaranteeing them first shot (from turn 2 onwards and assuming you can't screen your immortals from every direction - which you are unlikely to do for troops).
I also play daemons though, and the flamers have not so far impressed me with their killing power. Maybe more of them are needed. An equivalent points value of flamers (6) deepstriking in for first shot but otherwise unsupported would kill about half of a squad of 10 immortals. Of course as a daemon player I could buff them with a herald, warp surge, +1 to wound psychic power, more flamers etc. but I am shoving a large investment to kill off a minor troops squad...I could just charge them with 4 greater daemons...
Mark.
Could scarabs succesfully tie them up in combat?
They fly and their overwatch is 12" D6 auto hit. I seriously doubt the scarab could make the charge and do somthing meaningful.
Plus, their flame attack is a Pistol weapon, so even if they get in there and the Flamers for some reason don't just fly away, they can vaporise the scarabs on their turn...
the only real counter is to shoot them . Flamers don't care about AP, so it's Strength, volume of attacks, and Wounds that work. probably gauss weapons are the best. 10 Teslammortals should be about able to kill half their own points value in Flamers in a single round of shooting (about the same ratio as the flamers shooting the immortals unsupported).
Doctoralex wrote: So I wanted to discuss whether to take 3x min troops + HQ just for the battalion CP, or invest some more into them and make them into a proper part of your army.
The way I see it is as follows;
Troops as tax: Cost: 422 points. This consists of 3x 5 Immortals /w Tesla, a Cryptek and an Overlord, all with minimal/no equipment.
So this is the 'cheapest' way to get a battalion. However, the 5 man Immortal squads aren't going to be doing much apart from sitting on objectives and providing medicore fire support. a 5 man squad isn't worth MWBD anyway.
On top of that, the Overlord and the Cryptek are sup-optimal when it comes to supporting the main powerhouses of our army (AKA Destroyers, DDA's, Wraiths & Tomb Blades).
The other option is this:
Troops filled out: Cost: 762 points. Now it's 3x 10 Immortals, a Cryptek & Overlord /w Staff of Light and 2x3 Scarabs.
Now the troops can actually join the front and get proper support by the two HQ's. However, with them going forward we need new units to sit on the backline points, hence two units of Scarabs.
So, what do you guys think is better? 422 points of meh troops that provide some fire support, and some wasted HQ's?
Or 762 points of a proper HQ + troops core, but less points for our powerful units.
I go back and forth on this. 10 man Immortal units are good, and can contribute to the fight. 5 man units mostly feel like a tax. On that basis I've mostly been going for 3x 10.
However, beyond what these units do by themselves, there's also what they mean for the play style of the army. Having 3x 10 Immortals means that you are running a list with a slow moving infantry core that opponents can head towards. All our other good choices (Destroyers, Tomb Blades, DDAs, Scarabs, Wraith) are fast, and can feel tied down by an immobile core. When using 3x 5 Immortals I can take more of the fast stuff, and also not have a static fire base. The army is a lot more slippery played this way, able to kite opponents, or do a refused flank, to prevent them getting close with CC units.
A Nephrek battalion of 3x 10 Immortals can provide a happy medium. Using the Translocation Crypt strat, a Veil of Darkness, and MWBD + 7" advance to get some nice mobility. This has worked fairly well when I've tried it although -1 to hit armies have given me some trouble. Deep striking means no MWBD, and advancing with MWBD means you're only getting normal tesla on 6's, so -1 to hit ruins both of these.
I'm considering trying a mixture of the two options: 1x 10 + 2x 5 Immortals, or 2x 10 + 1x 5. One unit of 10 with an Overlord with Veil means you can teleport and trigger tesla on 5's. There's usually a good objective to sit on for one or two "grot squads".
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm considering trying a mixture of the two options: 1x 10 + 2x 5 Immortals, or 2x 10 + 1x 5. One unit of 10 with an Overlord with Veil means you can teleport and trigger tesla on 5's. There's usually a good objective to sit on for one or two "grot squads".
Actually, if you're going to Veil the Immortals up, it'd probably be best to have them be Gauss, so you can easily get them in RF range.
I say,
1x5 Tesla on an objective
1x10 Tesla walking up w/ Overlord
1x10 Gauss Veil'd in w/ Lord
but part of the problem is the ITC guys removing all the value in having a low-drop army, leaving the 20 drop armies with a 40% chance of going first instead of 17%.
This an excellent point, and not discussed enough. GW has gotten its fair share of flakk over the years on rules design, and deservedly so, but this is one area they got right and it was ill advised of the ITC guys to unilaterally overrule it.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm considering trying a mixture of the two options: 1x 10 + 2x 5 Immortals, or 2x 10 + 1x 5. One unit of 10 with an Overlord with Veil means you can teleport and trigger tesla on 5's. There's usually a good objective to sit on for one or two "grot squads".
Actually, if you're going to Veil the Immortals up, it'd probably be best to have them be Gauss, so you can easily get them in RF range.
I say,
1x5 Tesla on an objective
1x10 Tesla walking up w/ Overlord
1x10 Gauss Veil'd in w/ Lord
I've run 2x 10 Tesla and 1x 10 Gauss quite a few times, with the intention of Veiling the Gauss. I've never been that impressed though, and sometimes end up veiling a Tesla unit. I'm leaning towards pure Tesla for my Immortals now. It's mostly a question of what opponents you normally face as to which is more useful.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm considering trying a mixture of the two options: 1x 10 + 2x 5 Immortals, or 2x 10 + 1x 5. One unit of 10 with an Overlord with Veil means you can teleport and trigger tesla on 5's. There's usually a good objective to sit on for one or two "grot squads".
Actually, if you're going to Veil the Immortals up, it'd probably be best to have them be Gauss, so you can easily get them in RF range.
I say,
1x5 Tesla on an objective
1x10 Tesla walking up w/ Overlord
1x10 Gauss Veil'd in w/ Lord
I've run 2x 10 Tesla and 1x 10 Gauss quite a few times, with the intention of Veiling the Gauss. I've never been that impressed though, and sometimes end up veiling a Tesla unit. I'm leaning towards pure Tesla for my Immortals now. It's mostly a question of what opponents you normally face as to which is more useful.
Along as you have access to mwbd you only ever really need gauss 3+ saves or better
"but part of the problem is the ITC guys removing all the value in having a low-drop army, leaving the 20 drop armies with a 40% chance of going first instead of 17%."
The ITC has nothing to do with it. GW changed all their missions to be +1 to go first instead of auto go first in chapter aproved.
v0iddrgn wrote: The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?
Its pretty much Textbook the same as the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic, and I do not believe that works that way. You have to stay still in your most recent movement phase.
It reads, "... THE preceding Movement phase."
You know what I DO find interesting though, is using the Nihilak Strategem on a Phalanx of infantry under a chronometron. Turning your warriors into 3+ / 4++ for a turn makes them pretty stupidly survivable. Just thought about that.
Thats a good play, but why not park a chronotek and destroyers on the obj to get a 2+/4++ or on Lychguard (dont need Chrnotek) with sword and board for a 2+/3++. And those guys are getting +1 atk. Great for tarpits, just need to make sure you are near an objective as these guys you will probably be moving to assault with.
The Flamers can deepstrike into shooting range, guaranteeing them first shot (from turn 2 onwards and assuming you can't screen your immortals from every direction - which you are unlikely to do for troops).
Why would I let that unit deepstrike within 12" of my Immortals?
I thought this thread assumed we weren't playing like idiots.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "but part of the problem is the ITC guys removing all the value in having a low-drop army, leaving the 20 drop armies with a 40% chance of going first instead of 17%."
The ITC has nothing to do with it. GW changed all their missions to be +1 to go first instead of auto go first in chapter aproved.
Which was a direct result of ITC doing it from day one.
However, this format is much better than the original imbalance where low drop armies always went first.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "but part of the problem is the ITC guys removing all the value in having a low-drop army, leaving the 20 drop armies with a 40% chance of going first instead of 17%."
The ITC has nothing to do with it. GW changed all their missions to be +1 to go first instead of auto go first in chapter aproved.
Which was a direct result of ITC doing it from day one.
However, this format is much better than the original imbalance where low drop armies always went first.
I wonder what they were thinking with auto go first. Knight army? First almost every game. MSU army with no transports? (admech) sucks to be you. You'll go 1st 1/6th of all games you play!
Fragile wrote: "but part of the problem is the ITC guys removing all the value in having a low-drop army, leaving the 20 drop armies with a 40% chance of going first instead of 17%."
The ITC has nothing to do with it. GW changed all their missions to be +1 to go first instead of auto go first in chapter aproved.
Which was a direct result of ITC doing it from day one.
However, this format is much better than the original imbalance where low drop armies always went first.
Only the chapter approved missions get the +1 to initiative roll. The official rule that whoever finishes deploying first has the choice to go first or second has not changed.
p5freak wrote: Only the chapter approved missions get the +1 to initiative roll. The official rule that whoever finishes deploying first has the choice to go first or second has not changed.
How many competitive tournaments are playing it that way?
If enough of them are, perhaps that's where Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb™ might be able to do well (as with 8 units you'd be more likely be first to finish setting up).
Actually, what were the common TV³DB builds?
I can't remember if they were Outrider or Vanguard based (I don't think you'd be able to fit a Battalion into 2000 points unless you changed one of the Vaults for an Obelisk, and that doesn't seem like a good idea).
Fragile wrote: "but part of the problem is the ITC guys removing all the value in having a low-drop army, leaving the 20 drop armies with a 40% chance of going first instead of 17%."
The ITC has nothing to do with it. GW changed all their missions to be +1 to go first instead of auto go first in chapter aproved.
Which was a direct result of ITC doing it from day one.
However, this format is much better than the original imbalance where low drop armies always went first.
Only the chapter approved missions get the +1 to initiative roll. The official rule that whoever finishes deploying first has the choice to go first or second has not changed.
WTF are you talking about? Pretty much no one plays that way. That's just like saying "oh the FAQ says you can't do this, but the official rules say you can so it's k".
The Flamers can deepstrike into shooting range, guaranteeing them first shot (from turn 2 onwards and assuming you can't screen your immortals from every direction - which you are unlikely to do for troops).
Why would I let that unit deepstrike within 12" of my Immortals?
I thought this thread assumed we weren't playing like idiots.
That's just like saying "oh the FAQ says you can't do this, but the official rules say you can so it's k".
No, its not. FAQs and CA before rules. But in the matched play section of CA there is no mention of this +1 to the initiative roll.
Yes but the new CA missions are what you should play and what tournaments play. They are basically updated missions. There is no GT/Major tournament that still uses auto go first. In RTTs anything can happen.
Raxxamous wrote: I think Tactical Marines are overcosted as well. People should take intercessors or immortals if they want a troop that can fight and still be a troop. Necrons don't have scouts to make up for their terrible troops though. The problem is cheap troops are so far superior to Tactical Marines equivalent models in a match where anyone can think beyond "wow one space marines can sure beat up a guardsmen". You're honestly just deluding yourself if you think a warrior is worth more than two guardsmen on anything but a straight "can fight" level, which is meaningless as I mentioned before. This is why almost every tournament army is just cheap ass troops and the best units after that.
Tacs have been used in top 3 lists in 8th, intercessors haven't. I never said that a list featuring two big Warriors blobs is going to do well against a Guard list. But I happen to think that a Guardsmen is worth more than 4 pts, what is a Lychguard going to cost in a game where a Guardsman costs 4? 25 pts for a Lychguard? 15? Balance is found in the middle, not at the top. Tac squads are pretty okay and Necron Warriors are pretty okay as well. I think Necron Strats should have been better to reflect the high cost of our detachments and our inability to abuse allies, but that comes back to Guardsmen being OP, but part of the problem is the ITC guys removing all the value in having a low-drop army, leaving the 20 drop armies with a 40% chance of going first instead of 17%.
Guardsmen too few points, or others too many points, its really semantics at that point. We both agree that a points rebalance needs to happen.
Guardsmen are however broken only in context of allies as CP factory. Mono guard are NOT broken. There's reason you don't see mono guards at top tables. So if you just flat nerf guard mono guard is going fast from middle of the pack to bottom of the pack...
tneva82 wrote: Guardsmen are however broken only in context of allies as CP factory. Mono guard are NOT broken. There's reason you don't see mono guards at top tables. So if you just flat nerf guard mono guard is going fast from middle of the pack to bottom of the pack...
All that GW really needs to do to fix that issue is say that CP can only be used by the detachment that generated them, but the 3 CP from a battleforged list can be used by anyone in the list. Boom. Allies fixed.
tneva82 wrote: Guardsmen are however broken only in context of allies as CP factory. Mono guard are NOT broken. There's reason you don't see mono guards at top tables. So if you just flat nerf guard mono guard is going fast from middle of the pack to bottom of the pack...
I agree, mono-imperium books are not overwhelmingly good, but they probably won't change allies because it prints money.
The guard problem is really simple.
1) Guard are great
2) Guard have a crapton of CP 3) Guard have mostly hot garbage stratagems
So you just take a faction with good stratagems (which is most other imperium factions) and GG. Which leads to every army being the same: guardmech, space guard, blood guard, dark guard, sister guard, grey guard, custodes guard... Personally, I hate it.
On the topic of the guard cp farm. The ammount of gain is just absurd. I think it might be less a problem if they limited the ammount you can regain to what was spent and put a cap on it so you cant end up with more than the game started with. One of the blood guard guys i played was able to roll an extra dice every time and he ended the game with more cp than he started with and he was burning strats like crazy. Its a little disapointing that we get hyperlogical strategist but i doesnt get the benefit of almost all the other similar traits where we get to roll for opponents strats too.
No. Guard take a trait for their CP and an artifact for their opponent's CP(or vise versa, I can't recall :p). If something works on both - its only on a 6(like admech)
tneva82 wrote: Guardsmen are however broken only in context of allies as CP factory. Mono guard are NOT broken. There's reason you don't see mono guards at top tables. So if you just flat nerf guard mono guard is going fast from middle of the pack to bottom of the pack...
All that GW really needs to do to fix that issue is say that CP can only be used by the detachment that generated them, but the 3 CP from a battleforged list can be used by anyone in the list. Boom. Allies fixed.
I like that idea.
(though careful, folks. Venturing into irrelevant discussion territory).
rvd1ofakind wrote: No. Guard take a trait for their CP and an artifact for their opponent's CP(or vise versa, I can't recall :p). If something works on both - its only on a 6(like admech)
Both grand strategist (trait) and kurovs aquila (relic) gives the guard player 1 CP on a 5+. GS let's him roll for every CP he spends and KA is for every opponent's stratagem. That combo is insane, that's why you see it in pretty much every imperial soup army.
Well yeah. That's what I said. He said it a trait works on both you and opponent. I said it was a combo of 2 things.
So the Necron trait isn't worse than their trait. It's the same.
Inevitableq wrote: Tried this list for a few games. It worked very well for me.
Spoiler:
Sautekh battalion
Immotekh
Chronotek ,SoL , veil
2x10 tesla immortal
1x10 gauss immortal
1x6 destroyers
3x DDA
Nephrek aux detachment
1x6 destroyer(in deepstrike)
7-8 cp after deepstrike
Any thoughts or opinions?
I never even thought of doing a Nephrek Aux Detachment, ive been struggling to fill the right balance in that Dynasty and get the HQ and spam scarabs, it might be best to do what you have here. I would drop the gauss immortals, take some scarabs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: No. Guard take a trait for their CP and an artifact for their opponent's CP(or vise versa, I can't recall :p). If something works on both - its only on a 6(like admech)
Correct, they take GRAND Strategist WL Trait and the Aquila Relic I believe it is. On a 5+ they get a Command point back when spent for their WLT. The relic lets them get a CP every time their opponent uses a Stratagem (its not per CP) so if you use a 3 CP stratagem, they only get 1 roll for a 5+.
But yeah, guard have Crazy high CP farm, mostly because they have the cheapest Battallion in the game.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "but part of the problem is the ITC guys removing all the value in having a low-drop army, leaving the 20 drop armies with a 40% chance of going first instead of 17%."
The ITC has nothing to do with it. GW changed all their missions to be +1 to go first instead of auto go first in chapter aproved.
Which was a direct result of ITC doing it from day one.
However, this format is much better than the original imbalance where low drop armies always went first.
I wonder what they were thinking with auto go first. Knight army? First almost every game. MSU army with no transports? (admech) sucks to be you. You'll go 1st 1/6th of all games you play!
They were thinking that you get more CP playing the latter and you get to outdeploy your opponent which makes up for going last 5/6 times. Current ITC missions also favour going second, I think if you play ITC missions the game is more fair if the player with the fewest drops goes first assuming one army is spamming and the other is not. It gets really iffy when one player just has one less unit than the other and therefore gets to alpha strike, but making missions that favour going second helps that a lot.
I played another couple of games game with a Nihilakh Monolith and again the Monolith continues to do poorly. Canoptek Spyder was garbage.
First game was against Harlequins I think it was ITC, Monolith gets destroyed turn 2 after doing a couple of wounds, my opponent did sink a lot of haywire into it, but there is basically no way to avoid 24" guns on 20" M models. The problem is that the Monolith is really expensive point per wound-wise.
As for the rest, I got completely outmanouvered and my shooting failed to do anything of any real value, I lost the game big time. Canoptek Spyder did nothing all game.
Second game was against a Numarine Deathwatch army which was good at running and shooting. He went first and just had too much firepower to deal with. He left my Monolith alone and it did nothing all game, I used the +1 Sv strat on it, but he didn't feel like shooting at it regardless because he knew it wasn't worth his firepower.
Lost the game, Transcendent C'tan did 20 or so MWs in two turns which was pretty cool, lot better than Monolith definitely...
I also played with my double Monolith army against a BA/Sisters army in an ITC match, except I didn't take any Monoliths. I lost, but only because of having terrible rolls.
1 Imotekh the Stormlord WL (hyperlogical strategist) 200 200
1 Lord (hyperphase sword + the veil of darkness) 76 76
9 Immortals (tesla carbines) 153 153
9 Immortals (tesla carbines) 153 153
9 Immortals (tesla carbines) 153 153
6 Destroyers (gauss cannons) 300 300
1 Doomsday Ark 193 193
1 Doomsday Ark 193 193
1 Illuminor Szeras 143 143
6 Canoptek Wraiths 330 330
4 Canoptek Scarabs 52 52
4 Canoptek Scarabs 52 52
I moved 18" with my Wraiths and surrounded his flyer full of Death Company. I shot my DDA's main gun (not moved) and its flayer arrays (rapid fire) into his Stormraven and did 2 wounds. Used the Sautekh Strat for +1 to hit. I fired Immotekh's staff, Immotekh's lighting, Szeras, a moving DDA's main weapon and did another 1 wound. I was going to finish it off with the Immortals, but decided to shoot them at some scouts instead, 27 Immortals killed 9 scouts.
My 6 Destroyers (with the Stratagem) and the flayer arrays from my moving DDA into his 3++ 6+ FNP Captain did 4 wounds.
On turn two I attacked with my Lord, Szeras and 2 Wraiths and did a total of 1 damage against a unit of BA golden boys.
It wound up being a pretty close game, my opponent rolled about the same as me for the rest of the game, but my lack of damage turn 1 hurt a lot. I got a little too loose with my CP and ended up overspending. When Imotekh killed Celestine once I thought he could repeat it, he couldn't and I had no CP left to revive him.
I also played a game with a couple of Sautekh Tesseract Vaults, a Nihilakh Gauss Pylon and a small Battalion against a Guard Brigade with a side of Celestine and Blood Angels characters. I'm not sure if you're allowed to take Sautekh Tesseract Vaults in a Nihilakh Detachment? I didn't use the Sautekh Strat so it wouldn't have mattered, but it'd be nice to know. I deployed my Pylon before he deployed his tanks and I agreed it was possible to place them so they couldn't be seen, I could see them but didn't want to go back on my word. My opponent grabbed first turn and destroyed a Vault and half of my Pylon. It was a bit greedy to deploy the Pylon for the re-roll 1s, but I did have fewer drops and I thought I needed everything I could get to win even if I went first, but my saying my opponent was out of sight forced my Pylon to shoot at Sentinels. Definitely gotta look at things from your opponent's angle, because from his angle I had clear LOS, but there was just so much gak in the way I couldn't be sure from my side.
I also played a game with my updated Anrakyr/Szeras list and won against a Harlequin list that featured a lot of troupes with fusion pistols but no close combat weapons.
I forgot to fire my MWBD Immortals turn 1, I forgot that you measure from the base of Harlequin vehicles which let his WL and a troupe escape getting crushed by Scarabs. I forgot to use Szeras ability. I forgot to charge with my Scarabs turn 2. So basically I played about as badly as I could have. I lost Szeras and Anrakyr and nothing else. He only had his Solitair with 4 wounds left after turn 3. I rolled pretty poorly and he rolled really well, I'm wondering if he played 1500 pts or something. Triarch Praetorians were amazing, D2, AP 4 and S7 isn't really worth giving up the mobility of Praetorians for I don't think. Anrakyr-buffed Warriors chew through clowns like no tomorrow.
Doctoralex wrote: So I wanted to discuss whether to take 3x min troops + HQ just for the battalion CP, or invest some more into them and make them into a proper part of your army.
Actually, I was *just* experimenting with that idea.
I came up with a double battalion that had six 9x Immortal units with 3x Overlords + Imotekh to be able to MWBD every single one of them via Pharons Will. Considering adding a regular Lord for extra to-wound killiness. Was able to fit some DDAs and Scarabs, too. I don't have that many Immortals on hand so I can't really test it, but if anyone else wants to try-
I posted a 6x Tesla Immortal list earlier, but I played Nephrekh, which turned out to be a huge mistake when I went up against a big blob of Plaguebearer's that were -2 and Magnus that was -1 and which would have gone down a lot easier with Sautekh.
Not taking a Cryptek and a Lord seems like a big mistake. Consider dropping the DDAs in favour of Heavy Destroyers and and some characters. I just don't think it's worth it to do a double Battalion. 27 Immortals will already deal quite well with hordes and after that you still get DDAs that can move and shoot decently if you really need to push forward and deal with hordes. Does Sautekh even need this much CP? You're going to have 19,5 CP on average, you've definitely gone past the point of deminishing returns. The likelihood of having a Sautekh Strat target each turn seems pretty low, even with a re-roll in each of your shooting phases and your opponent's shooting phases and quantum deflection, you're still flush with CP. C'tan and Destroyers are better than DDAs at eating CP, so maybe take those instead? Take a Tesseract Vault and feed it all your CP?
Ok peepz next up for me is a whole different ball game from the Space Wolves a full codex RavenGuard not managed to crack these guys yet any advice would be much appreciated I am thinking Sautekh to eliminate the -1 to hit via MWBD loving Imothekh at the moment and some Nephrekh deepstrike goodness and was thinking how to best get Melee in there back lines warsythe Lychguard to take out their tanks they have a lot of +1 to hit fly and that strafing run thing so the flyers must die so not quite sure who’s best to target them as the destroyers will be trying to take out his Hellblasters and potentially his tanks DDA would be an obvious option CTan to dish mortal wounds and engage a flyer in CC along with scarabs they also sometimes run 2 assassins soooo annoying needing some destroy turn 1 tactics for them please any other thoughts would be much appreciated to keep the winning streak on
Dunno about you guys, but I'm starting to think a Vault in a 2000 point list might not be so great after all.
Here's why:
1: Why the Vault does a great deal of mortal wounds, these are all directed towards hordes or MSU's. The vault has no way if doing consistent damage to bigger threats.
2: Probably the biggest reason; it will soak up ALL the enemy's anti-tank. Since there are no other ideal targets for them (DDA's have QS, Destroyers are probably dead to small arms/special weapons fire or waiting in reserve. (same for Wraiths). While the Vault can tank a punch, if there are no other armoured threats he will go down easily. Especially since he needs to get close in order to do his thing.
Another important aspect of NOT having a Vault, is that there aren't any juicy targets for the opponents anti-tank. I've had plenty of matches were, after dealing with the Destroyers, the enemy almost didn't bother to fire it's Lascannons. There simply weren't any targets left for them.
3: Just... just look at what you can do with that many points!
- 2DDA's and 120 points to spare.
-10 Destroyers
-9 Wraiths
-16! Tomb Blades (no upgrades though)
Doesn't that just sound so much more powerful than the Vault to you?
Agree. I played against a triple vault list using ITC and won, only killed 2 of them. They give up crazy secondaries with Titan slayer, and I was playing horde nids. He did have some nasty mortal wounds T1, but After that they strated degrading and he started failing to cast his powers. You also don't have a lot of board control, few CP's, and none of the Dynasties really benefit the Vaults, MAYBE Mephrit with its guns, but you really are using Mortal wound spam more than anything.
Transcendent Ctan though, might be a different story, those guys look pretty good for CC. Supported with Lychguard, flayed ones scarabs or wraiths could go all CC
Dynas wrote: Agree. I played against a triple vault list using ITC and won, only killed 2 of them. They give up crazy secondaries with Titan slayer, and I was playing horde nids. He did have some nasty mortal wounds T1, but After that they strated degrading and he started failing to cast his powers. You also don't have a lot of board control, few CP's, and none of the Dynasties really benefit the Vaults, MAYBE Mephrit with its guns, but you really are using Mortal wound spam more than anything.
Transcendent Ctan though, might be a different story, those guys look pretty good for CC. Supported with Lychguard, flayed ones scarabs or wraiths could go all CC
Well there is the argument that they have the C'Tan Shards keyword and thus wouldn't get the -1 for their teslas. (as CTan Shards are not friends with benefits when it comes to dynasties)
Dynas wrote: Agree. I played against a triple vault list using ITC and won, only killed 2 of them. They give up crazy secondaries with Titan slayer, and I was playing horde nids. He did have some nasty mortal wounds T1, but After that they strated degrading and he started failing to cast his powers. You also don't have a lot of board control, few CP's, and none of the Dynasties really benefit the Vaults, MAYBE Mephrit with its guns, but you really are using Mortal wound spam more than anything.
Transcendent Ctan though, might be a different story, those guys look pretty good for CC. Supported with Lychguard, flayed ones scarabs or wraiths could go all CC
Well there is the argument that they have the C'Tan Shards keyword and thus wouldn't get the -1 for their teslas. (as CTan Shards are not friends with benefits when it comes to dynasties)
The Vault definitely has the Dynasty key along with Necron key word so I am sure that they do benefit from the rules, the actual Shards DONT have Dynasty key words so don’t benefit from the Dynasty goodness
Dynas wrote: Agree. I played against a triple vault list using ITC and won, only killed 2 of them. They give up crazy secondaries with Titan slayer, and I was playing horde nids. He did have some nasty mortal wounds T1, but After that they strated degrading and he started failing to cast his powers. You also don't have a lot of board control, few CP's, and none of the Dynasties really benefit the Vaults, MAYBE Mephrit with its guns, but you really are using Mortal wound spam more than anything.
Transcendent Ctan though, might be a different story, those guys look pretty good for CC. Supported with Lychguard, flayed ones scarabs or wraiths could go all CC
Well there is the argument that they have the C'Tan Shards keyword and thus wouldn't get the -1 for their teslas. (as CTan Shards are not friends with benefits when it comes to dynasties)
The Vault definitely has the Dynasty key along with Necron key word so I am sure that they do benefit from the rules
The Dynastic Code section state the C'Tan Shards never benefit from Dynastic Codes, doesn't it? Don't have my book with me right now.
The vault has both CTAN SHARDS and DYNASTY. This means you dont get the dynasty benefits, but you can use their stratagems. Want to make your vault (almost) unkillable ? Make it nihilakh, place it within 3" of an objective marker, or dont move it, and play the nihilakh strat where you get +1 to sv rolls. And because the strat is used outside of a phase, at the end of your turn, you can play it as many times as you want. Play it twice and your vault gets a 2++ invuln sv. That will cost you 4 CP, though.
Dynas wrote: Agree. I played against a triple vault list using ITC and won, only killed 2 of them. They give up crazy secondaries with Titan slayer, and I was playing horde nids. He did have some nasty mortal wounds T1, but After that they strated degrading and he started failing to cast his powers. You also don't have a lot of board control, few CP's, and none of the Dynasties really benefit the Vaults, MAYBE Mephrit with its guns, but you really are using Mortal wound spam more than anything.
Transcendent Ctan though, might be a different story, those guys look pretty good for CC. Supported with Lychguard, flayed ones scarabs or wraiths could go all CC
Well there is the argument that they have the C'Tan Shards keyword and thus wouldn't get the -1 for their teslas. (as CTan Shards are not friends with benefits when it comes to dynasties)
The Vault definitely has the Dynasty key along with Necron key word so I am sure that they do benefit from the rules, the actual Shards DONT have Dynasty key words so don’t benefit from the Dynasty goodness
There isnt a debate here though, the codex states clearly that any C'tan shards do not benefit from codes. There isnt an exception for it just because it also has <dynasty>. Vaults do not get codes, period. The <dynasty> just allows them to use strategems.
The list mentioned above with 2 sautekh vaults and a nihilakh pylon, the list is legal but the pylon wont get to use the nihilakh reroll. In order to get codes the whole detatchment needs to be nihilakh.
There isnt a debate here though, the codex states clearly that any C'tan shards do not benefit from codes. There isnt an exception for it just because it also has <dynasty>. Vaults do not get codes, period. The <dynasty> just allows them to use strategems.
The list mentioned above with 2 sautekh vaults and a nihilakh pylon, the list is legal but the pylon wont get to use the nihilakh reroll. In order to get codes the whole detatchment needs to be nihilakh.
This bit is correct. It's in the "code of war" section (p. 108) in the back that describes the codes and how they work. Just looked it up. Even with the dynasty keyword it gains no benefit.
Curious79 wrote: Ok peepz next up for me is a whole different ball game from the Space Wolves a full codex RavenGuard not managed to crack these guys yet any advice would be much appreciated I am thinking Sautekh to eliminate the -1 to hit via MWBD loving Imothekh at the moment and some Nephrekh deepstrike goodness and was thinking how to best get Melee in there back lines warsythe Lychguard to take out their tanks they have a lot of +1 to hit fly and that strafing run thing so the flyers must die so not quite sure who’s best to target them as the destroyers will be trying to take out his Hellblasters and potentially his tanks DDA would be an obvious option CTan to dish mortal wounds and engage a flyer in CC along with scarabs they also sometimes run 2 assassins soooo annoying needing some destroy turn 1 tactics for them please any other thoughts would be much appreciated to keep the winning streak on
This is kind of what I was thinking would really want more mortal wounds output Take tomb blades out for a CTan?
Make your entire army Mephrit. Take a Monolith and use the Deceiver to bring it up the table, that allows you to get within 12" on turn 1 with your Monolith and one of your units on the table so you get AP -1 but also ignore the -1 to hit modifier. Use Veil of Darkness to bring another unit up.
Your opponent doesn't own scouts does he? Yeah, Monoliths suck. C'tan are going to be pretty good I imagine, even killing scouts is somewhat worth it and once you've blown through those you can really start to do some damage. Melee units can ignore the -1 to hit altogether as well, making them another solid choice. Tesla won't work because of Marine saves. Marines in my experience also lack units that are tough enough to warrant the +1 to hit. If you don't have other models I think Mephrit would work out better for your tesla Immortals, Sautekh Immortals are going to be useless if you're playing on a crowded board, you'll be paying to ignore cover every single turn.
The list mentioned above with 2 sautekh vaults and a nihilakh pylon, the list is legal but the pylon wont get to use the nihilakh reroll. In order to get codes the whole detatchment needs to be nihilakh.
What about "so long as every other unit in their Detachment is from the same dynasty (with the exception of those listed below)" (Tesseract Vault is listed below).
Last three games in a row (at my LFGS or on Tabletop Simulator) I got absolutely destroyed ;(
Someone please just... toss me an army list that works.....
Nephrek Batallion
Cryptek w/ Chrono
Overlord with WS/ VoD, Warlord
3x5 Immortals w/ Tesla
2x6 Destroyers
x8 TB with Gauss, Shieldvanes, x2 Shadowloom
Sautekh Spearhead
Cryptek with Cloak
x3 DDA
Should come out to 1999 points. Its got great firepower. No assault elements however, and weaker scoring elements, so expect the destroyers and TB to be pulling double duty on objectives and killing to back the minimal immortal squads up.
Curious79 wrote: Ok peepz next up for me is a whole different ball game from the Space Wolves a full codex RavenGuard not managed to crack these guys yet any advice would be much appreciated I am thinking Sautekh to eliminate the -1 to hit via MWBD loving Imothekh at the moment and some Nephrekh deepstrike goodness and was thinking how to best get Melee in there back lines warsythe Lychguard to take out their tanks they have a lot of +1 to hit fly and that strafing run thing so the flyers must die so not quite sure who’s best to target them as the destroyers will be trying to take out his Hellblasters and potentially his tanks DDA would be an obvious option CTan to dish mortal wounds and engage a flyer in CC along with scarabs they also sometimes run 2 assassins soooo annoying needing some destroy turn 1 tactics for them please any other thoughts would be much appreciated to keep the winning streak on
This is kind of what I was thinking would really want more mortal wounds output Take tomb blades out for a CTan?
Make your entire army Mephrit. Take a Monolith and use the Deceiver to bring it up the table, that allows you to get within 12" on turn 1 with your Monolith and one of your units on the table so you get AP -1 but also ignore the -1 to hit modifier. Use Veil of Darkness to bring another unit up.
Your opponent doesn't own scouts does he? Yeah, Monoliths suck. C'tan are going to be pretty good I imagine, even killing scouts is somewhat worth it and once you've blown through those you can really start to do some damage. Melee units can ignore the -1 to hit altogether as well, making them another solid choice. Tesla won't work because of Marine saves. Marines in my experience also lack units that are tough enough to warrant the +1 to hit. If you don't have other models I think Mephrit would work out better for your tesla Immortals, Sautekh Immortals are going to be useless if you're playing on a crowded board, you'll be paying to ignore cover every single turn.
The list mentioned above with 2 sautekh vaults and a nihilakh pylon, the list is legal but the pylon wont get to use the nihilakh reroll. In order to get codes the whole detatchment needs to be nihilakh.
What about "so long as every other unit in their Detachment is from the same dynasty (with the exception of those listed below)" (Tesseract Vault is listed below).
My thinking would be that Mephrit would be the worse to choose as your then instantly in Rapid Fire Plasma range BOOM goes Monolith first turn and bye bye 368pts that’s done nothing worth its pionts I love the potential of the Monolith and all its rules it just needs an invulnerable and I would be happy
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: The vault has both CTAN SHARDS and DYNASTY. This means you dont get the dynasty benefits, but you can use their stratagems. Want to make your vault (almost) unkillable ? Make it nihilakh, place it within 3" of an objective marker, or dont move it, and play the nihilakh strat where you get +1 to sv rolls. And because the strat is used outside of a phase, at the end of your turn, you can play it as many times as you want. Play it twice and your vault gets a 2++ invuln sv. That will cost you 4 CP, though.
Fantastic!!! So how does that 2++ work where in the rules so I can show my opponents
There isnt a debate here though, the codex states clearly that any C'tan shards do not benefit from codes. There isnt an exception for it just because it also has <dynasty>. Vaults do not get codes, period. The <dynasty> just allows them to use strategems.
The list mentioned above with 2 sautekh vaults and a nihilakh pylon, the list is legal but the pylon wont get to use the nihilakh reroll. In order to get codes the whole detatchment needs to be nihilakh.
This bit is correct. It's in the "code of war" section (p. 108) in the back that describes the codes and how they work. Just looked it up. Even with the dynasty keyword it gains no benefit.
This is what i was looking for. Sorry for all the ruckus. I know Ctan shards didnt but the Vault Dynasty thing threw mew off.
Basically, any C'tan (Nightbring, Deceiever, Vaults, Transcendents) don't get dynasty codes at all. Correct?
Curious79 wrote: Ok peepz next up for me is a whole different ball game from the Space Wolves a full codex RavenGuard not managed to crack these guys yet any advice would be much appreciated I am thinking Sautekh to eliminate the -1 to hit via MWBD loving Imothekh at the moment and some Nephrekh deepstrike goodness and was thinking how to best get Melee in there back lines warsythe Lychguard to take out their tanks they have a lot of +1 to hit fly and that strafing run thing so the flyers must die so not quite sure who’s best to target them as the destroyers will be trying to take out his Hellblasters and potentially his tanks DDA would be an obvious option CTan to dish mortal wounds and engage a flyer in CC along with scarabs they also sometimes run 2 assassins soooo annoying needing some destroy turn 1 tactics for them please any other thoughts would be much appreciated to keep the winning streak on
This is kind of what I was thinking would really want more mortal wounds output Take tomb blades out for a CTan?
Make your entire army Mephrit. Take a Monolith and use the Deceiver to bring it up the table, that allows you to get within 12" on turn 1 with your Monolith and one of your units on the table so you get AP -1 but also ignore the -1 to hit modifier. Use Veil of Darkness to bring another unit up.
Your opponent doesn't own scouts does he? Yeah, Monoliths suck. C'tan are going to be pretty good I imagine, even killing scouts is somewhat worth it and once you've blown through those you can really start to do some damage. Melee units can ignore the -1 to hit altogether as well, making them another solid choice. Tesla won't work because of Marine saves. Marines in my experience also lack units that are tough enough to warrant the +1 to hit. If you don't have other models I think Mephrit would work out better for your tesla Immortals, Sautekh Immortals are going to be useless if you're playing on a crowded board, you'll be paying to ignore cover every single turn.
What about "so long as every other unit in their Detachment is from the same dynasty (with the exception of those listed below)" (Tesseract Vault is listed below).
Isnt Imotekh tied to Sautekh, how would he rearrange his detachments to get mephrit?
Last three games in a row (at my LFGS or on Tabletop Simulator) I got absolutely destroyed ;(
Someone please just... toss me an army list that works.....
Nephrek Batallion
Cryptek w/ Chrono
Overlord with WS/ VoD, Warlord
3x5 Immortals w/ Tesla
2x6 Destroyers
x8 TB with Gauss, Shieldvanes, x2 Shadowloom
Sautekh Spearhead
Cryptek with Cloak
x3 DDA
Should come out to 1999 points. Its got great firepower. No assault elements however, and weaker scoring elements, so expect the destroyers and TB to be pulling double duty on objectives and killing to back the minimal immortal squads up.
Maybe you have enough to shoot yourself out of any CC threat. Could sacrifice some tomb blades for some wariths to not go completely naked though.
Might want to have tesla on thos blades, as there is enough AP shooting in your army anyway (both destroyers and DDAs)
-Sentinel- wrote: Also i don't get why people love gauss immortals. Warriors blob seems better as a rapid fire unit which you going to veil.
I prefer Tesla Immortals myself, but Gauss Immortals (especially Mephrit) can really pack a punch, and if you're just looking for a cheap troops choice to unlock some CP, five Immortals are cheaper than 10 Warriors.
Last three games in a row (at my LFGS or on Tabletop Simulator) I got absolutely destroyed ;(
Someone please just... toss me an army list that works.....
My all-comers list. It have all good stuff we have, from that point you can decide where you want to go:
Nice I like this list I am interested to hear your tactics with it as I am surprised about how little scarabs you have I would maybe reduce the warriors to 15 to get more scarabs or beaf up your warlord or just go All immortals that might allow allow you to change the trait in saying that you get the deny a psychic power with that as well don’t you?
Last three games in a row (at my LFGS or on Tabletop Simulator) I got absolutely destroyed ;(
Someone please just... toss me an army list that works.....
Have you tried including a Tesseract Vault? ^^
I can tell you what not to include, so far I'd say you should stay away from Monoliths, Obelisks and Kutlakh for sure. I'm also pretty sure Flayed Ones are too risky and that you'll rarely get your pts back with a Spyder. I don't think you'll find a list that will win you every game, losing streaks are bound to occur (about 1 losing streak every 20-40 games is about average). Meanwhile you can review why you lost, sometimes you might discard a brilliant list because you failed a 4" charge, which isn't rational, other times you'll make a mistake you won't catch until you think about what you could have done better post-game, making less obviously stupid mistakes is a good way to get better. You'll be back.
Last three games in a row (at my LFGS or on Tabletop Simulator) I got absolutely destroyed ;(
Someone please just... toss me an army list that works.....
Have you tried including a Tesseract Vault? ^^
I can tell you what not to include, so far I'd say you should stay away from Monoliths, Obelisks and Kutlakh for sure. I'm also pretty sure Flayed Ones are too risky and that you'll rarely get your pts back with a Spyder. I don't think you'll find a list that will win you every game, losing streaks are bound to occur (about 1 losing streak every 20-40 games is about average). Meanwhile you can review why you lost, sometimes you might discard a brilliant list because you failed a 4" charge, which isn't rational, other times you'll make a mistake you won't catch until you think about what you could have done better post-game, making less obviously stupid mistakes is a good way to get better. You'll be back.
You always learn more from your losses than your wins!!
Just played a game vs tyranid, won pretty solidly.
My list.
Spoiler:
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nihilakh
. . Categories: No Force Org Slot
+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge: Artefact: Lightning Field, Tesla Cannon, Warscythe
. . Categories: Faction: (Dynasty), Faction: Necrons, Catacomb Command Barge, Fly, Overlord, Vehicle, Character, HQ . . Rules: Living Metal
. . Warlord: Warlord Trait (Codex 1): Enduring Will
Destroyer Lord: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Warscythe
. . Categories: Character, Destroyer Lord, Faction: (Dynasty), Faction: Necrons, Fly, Infantry, HQ . . Rules: Living Metal
+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver: Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault, Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt
. . Categories: Faction: C'tan Shards, Faction: Necrons, C'tan Shard of the Deceiver, Character, Fly, Monster, Elites
. . Rules: Powers of the C'tan (Instructions)
Doomsday Ark
. . Categories: Faction: Necrons, Faction: (Dynasty), Fly, Vehicle, Doomsday Ark, Heavy Support
. . Rules: Living Metal
Doomsday Ark
. . Categories: Faction: Necrons, Faction: (Dynasty), Fly, Vehicle, Doomsday Ark, Heavy Support
. . Rules: Living Metal
Heavy Destroyers
. . Categories: Faction: (Dynasty), Faction: Necrons, Fly, Heavy Destroyers, Infantry, Heavy Support
. . Rules: Reanimation Protocols
. . 3x Heavy Destroyer: 3x Heavy Gauss Cannon
+ Lord of War +
Tesseract Vault: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
. . Categories: Faction: (Dynasty), Faction: C'tan Shards, Faction: Necrons, Fly, Tesseract Vault, Titanic, Vehicle, Lord of War
. . Rules: Powers of the C'tan (Instructions)
He showed up with a Godzilla style list, with some really big forgeworld guy with 24 wounds and 12 shots with a pretty nasty gun that did d3 damage, perfect for fighting quantum shielding. Didn't get a single quantum shield roll off all game. He also had 3 carnifex units with close combat loadouts, old one eye, swarmlord, and malenthrope.
It was a back and forth fight but in the end necron shooting was stronger than tyranids speed and close combat ability. Things I learned.
Command barges can not take on a swarmlord in close combat.... but scarabs can slow it down.
Doomsday arks love to see anything big, and carnifexes can't survive getting looked at.
Deceiver can't fight swarmlord in close combat.
Destroyer lords can't fight swarmlord in close combat (see a pattern).
Heavy destroyers actually do a decent job of finishing off things the dda doesn't. Not sure if it's not better to just take an additional dda though.
Tesseract vault, first time I ever used one, it did dish out a decent amount of mortal wounds but it wasn't really that strong as a damage dealer for some reason. It did do an excellent job contesting an important objective for 3 turns, it was almost killed in the game (down to 7 wounds) but it just would not die and held the enemy force up on its own for 2 turns giving the dda units a change to reposition then blast away at the big guys.
I do like this list but it needs more command points. 5 isn't enough to do much. Also not sold on the dynasty. Dda rerolling 1's was nice. But was there a better option?
So I attended a tournament yesterday, I had to write up a list the night before as I was the ringer to even out numbers. I threw a list together and got models from the TO and inadvertently found a very strong list. I went 2/1 on the day, and placed 5th overall against a very tough field.
5 tesla immortals
5 tesla immortals
9 gauss immortals
Nightbringer.
Sautekh outrider
Lord with HPS, Res orb
5 wraiths
5 destroyers
5 destroyers
5 destroyers
I wanted to try sautekh, as I usually run neprekh for the DS option and the 6" move on wraiths. I think now that sautekh is much better, here is my reasoning:
the dynasty trait is good, I know destroyers already ignore the heavy penalty but they still can take advantage of the assault portion of the rule to great effect, considering they are only 24" range with a 10" move.
This list is very CP heavy, your blowing 3CP per turn minimum to buff the destroyers (more on that in a minute) and if you need to get your warlord back up/change a c'tan power/ignore cover etc you start burning them very fast. With the warlord trait I was spending about 12 CP per game and still had a few left over at the end of the game. Granted one game I didn't get a single back, probably made up for the other two games
The sautekh stratagem Methodical Destruction works absolute wonders with the destroyers. It takes a bit of finesse to get it working optimally but here was my usual strat: Veil up the gauss immortals into range of as many units as possible. This had a dual purpose of ensuring I didn't waste destroyers trying to proc the stratagem, while also ensuring I had a cryptek up forward to keep the bonus to RP on my wraiths (I was ressing htem every game, they are a crucial element to the list as they take a heap of pressure off the destroyers). From here you choose the target you need to kill, blast them with -2 gauss blasters, strip a wound (usually) and pop MD. Now you have 15 destroyers hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's to hit, wounding on x, rerolling 1's from the lord.
From here, I think I would drop down the immortal squad and squeeze in a D/Lord, and make him the warlord. The cryptek does so much work as it is, he becomes a huge target, and he is very necessary to keeping the destroyers kicking. The chronometron is necessary to keep the destroyers up, as they see all the nasty firepower once the wraiths go down. A res orb is very handy on a list like this, keeping it near wraiths T1, or next to destroyers after that ensures that it pays for itself if a single model gets back up, in all my games yesterday it made over double its points back, and was very clutch for me (one round i didn't res any destroyers from the roll, then got 3 back from the orb).
I know sautekh makes vehicles very good, but i feel it is also good for the rest of the army. MD ensures you can get tesla proccing on 5's even without MWBD....
One last thing, for anyone having problems with Drukhari, look at spamming destroyers and wraiths. All our weaponry wounds their vehicles on 4's with multi damage, while we are just as fast as them, and exceptionally durable vsing them (dis cannons wound destroyers and wraiths on 5's).
I 20-0 a very tough drukhari list, had index trueborn with blasters in 3 venoms, 2 blaster archons in another venom, 3 ravagers, scourges with blasters, and lots of poison. I tabled him, and I lost 1 squad of immortals, my warlord, my wraiths, one squad of destroyers and the nightbringer.
Sautekh FTW
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: Just played a game vs tyranid, won pretty solidly.
My list.
Spoiler:
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nihilakh
. . Categories: No Force Org Slot
+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge: Artefact: Lightning Field, Tesla Cannon, Warscythe
. . Categories: Faction: (Dynasty), Faction: Necrons, Catacomb Command Barge, Fly, Overlord, Vehicle, Character, HQ . . Rules: Living Metal
. . Warlord: Warlord Trait (Codex 1): Enduring Will
Destroyer Lord: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Warscythe
. . Categories: Character, Destroyer Lord, Faction: (Dynasty), Faction: Necrons, Fly, Infantry, HQ . . Rules: Living Metal
+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver: Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault, Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt
. . Categories: Faction: C'tan Shards, Faction: Necrons, C'tan Shard of the Deceiver, Character, Fly, Monster, Elites
. . Rules: Powers of the C'tan (Instructions)
Doomsday Ark
. . Categories: Faction: Necrons, Faction: (Dynasty), Fly, Vehicle, Doomsday Ark, Heavy Support
. . Rules: Living Metal
Doomsday Ark
. . Categories: Faction: Necrons, Faction: (Dynasty), Fly, Vehicle, Doomsday Ark, Heavy Support
. . Rules: Living Metal
Heavy Destroyers
. . Categories: Faction: (Dynasty), Faction: Necrons, Fly, Heavy Destroyers, Infantry, Heavy Support
. . Rules: Reanimation Protocols
. . 3x Heavy Destroyer: 3x Heavy Gauss Cannon
+ Lord of War +
Tesseract Vault: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
. . Categories: Faction: (Dynasty), Faction: C'tan Shards, Faction: Necrons, Fly, Tesseract Vault, Titanic, Vehicle, Lord of War
. . Rules: Powers of the C'tan (Instructions)
He showed up with a Godzilla style list, with some really big forgeworld guy with 24 wounds and 12 shots with a pretty nasty gun that did d3 damage, perfect for fighting quantum shielding. Didn't get a single quantum shield roll off all game. He also had 3 carnifex units with close combat loadouts, old one eye, swarmlord, and malenthrope.
It was a back and forth fight but in the end necron shooting was stronger than tyranids speed and close combat ability. Things I learned.
Command barges can not take on a swarmlord in close combat.... but scarabs can slow it down.
Doomsday arks love to see anything big, and carnifexes can't survive getting looked at.
Deceiver can't fight swarmlord in close combat.
Destroyer lords can't fight swarmlord in close combat (see a pattern).
Heavy destroyers actually do a decent job of finishing off things the dda doesn't. Not sure if it's not better to just take an additional dda though.
Tesseract vault, first time I ever used one, it did dish out a decent amount of mortal wounds but it wasn't really that strong as a damage dealer for some reason. It did do an excellent job contesting an important objective for 3 turns, it was almost killed in the game (down to 7 wounds) but it just would not die and held the enemy force up on its own for 2 turns giving the dda units a change to reposition then blast away at the big guys.
I do like this list but it needs more command points. 5 isn't enough to do much. Also not sold on the dynasty. Dda rerolling 1's was nice. But was there a better option?
The nightbringer can fight the swarmlord in combat, for a number of reasons.
His shooting attack that hits and wounds on 2+ and forces him on his invo should strip wounds before you get there, along with the mortal wounds from the C'tan powers youll be popping off. Once in combat it comes down to who can make more 4+ invuls, but if you can manage to get the first swing in combat, entropic strike with your fist hit you can usually swing the fight in your favour. He is not as easy as just running at and killing, you need to weaken him and fight on your terms but it is possible to kill him.
Hell ive killed him with a squad of wraiths before. 3++ is way better than 4++, and when each strike is doing 2d to him, it can do it. It took me about 6 rounds of combat to finally down him with the wraiths but they got the job done.
Yeah I ended up killing him from the tesseract vault. He brought down to 4 wounds from everything going at him (to be fair I was pretty stupid trying to take him on in cc) and then the swarmlord rolled 12 on smite and did 2 wounds to himself and 2 to my destroyer Lord, which the vault finished with cosmic fire. And the deceiver got hit first in cc before he got a change to hit back, it was what it was.
I like your list a lot. I just need to drop it down to 1500 for our local tournament rules.
This is what I am thinking.
Spoiler:
Catacomb Command Barge w/ warscythe
Destroyer Lord w / warscythe
Deceiver
Wraiths ( 5 of them )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Doomsday Ark
My issue is it's very low on command points, only 3 after using one for 2 artifacts for the hq's. That leaves very little room for stratagems but the force itself is incredibly fast and can output a lot of damage quickly. I could drop the dda for some immortals but I won't have any real way to get them around the board so I don't want to go that route.
p5freak wrote: The vault has both CTAN SHARDS and DYNASTY. This means you dont get the dynasty benefits, but you can use their stratagems. Want to make your vault (almost) unkillable ? Make it nihilakh, place it within 3" of an objective marker, or dont move it, and play the nihilakh strat where you get +1 to sv rolls. And because the strat is used outside of a phase, at the end of your turn, you can play it as many times as you want. Play it twice and your vault gets a 2++ invuln sv. That will cost you 4 CP, though.
Fantastic!!! So how does that 2++ work where in the rules so I can show my opponents
What do you mean ? I explained everything in my post. You can only use a stratagem once inside a phase, BRBpg .215. Outside of a phase you can use the same stratagem as many times as you want. There is a discussion going on when outside of a phase actually is, because its undefined by the rules. There are two examples on pg. 215. Judging from that its clear to me that at the end of your turn is outside of a phase. At the end of your turn you play the nihilakh strat twice giving you +2 to your sv rolls. Your 4+ invuln sv turns into a 2+ invuln sv. If you get plus to your saving throws it applies to all your saves, including invuln sv. Thats written in the FAQs, dont remember where exactly.
p5freak wrote: The vault has both CTAN SHARDS and DYNASTY. This means you dont get the dynasty benefits, but you can use their stratagems. Want to make your vault (almost) unkillable ? Make it nihilakh, place it within 3" of an objective marker, or dont move it, and play the nihilakh strat where you get +1 to sv rolls. And because the strat is used outside of a phase, at the end of your turn, you can play it as many times as you want. Play it twice and your vault gets a 2++ invuln sv. That will cost you 4 CP, though.
Fantastic!!! So how does that 2++ work where in the rules so I can show my opponents
What do you mean ? I explained everything in my post. You can only use a stratagem once inside a phase, BRBpg .215. Outside of a phase you can use the same stratagem as many times as you want. There is a discussion going on when outside of a phase actually is, because its undefined by the rules. There are two examples on pg. 215. Judging from that its clear to me that at the end of your turn is outside of a phase. At the end of your turn you play the nihilakh strat twice giving you +2 to your sv rolls. Your 4+ invuln sv turns into a 2+ invuln sv. If you get plus to your saving throws it applies to all your saves, including invuln sv. Thats written in the FAQs, dont remember where exactly.
Perfect brilliant page numbers and everything thanks a lot !!!!
-How did the Nightbringer do in your list? What was his role in your army?
-You mentioned the Chrono-tek helping the survivability of the Destroyers. How was he able to keep up?
-Why squads of 5-man for your Destoyers?
-
Thanks man, im glad to answer your questions.
- I feel the mortal wound generation capabilities of C'tan shards are too good to pass up, and i try to include at least one in every list that I have. I usually default to the Nightbringer now, I have run combinations of all three now and pound for pound he just outperforms the others so much. 80% of the time i run the smite and pulse on him, as he wants to be close, so smite until you get there then just pulse mortal wounds. His role is pretty simple. Run up the board with the wraiths and put as much pressure on their front lines as possible. He is an absolute monster in CC, any non vehicle unit melts when he starts to look at them from shooting and he pumps out mortal wounds. Combined with entropic strike and he makes short work of archons 2++ just as well as flyrants. T7 and 8w with fly means he can just fly about, shooting, MW'ing and fighting whatever he needs to. Combined with the wraiths they soak up ALOT of firepower, the smart play is to focus down the destroyers but its hard to do this when you have a bunch of angry murder toasters protecting a cosmic murder machine bearing down on you.
- So this I haven't figured out completely yet, I was very lucky in my games this weekend. First game v nids they came to me, I didnt have to move much. Second and third games were variations of DoW, so range was never an issue. I have a couple of ideas how to get around it in future, there is a VoD in the list, which I could use to reposition, or I was thinking a HD in each squad to daisy chain back as he has longer range anyway. He needs to be 3" away, on average advance rolls he usually gets to where he needs to be, that and 24" range guns means the destroyers never usually need to go past half field, not a huge issue. The one game I lost him early I just flew my Cape-tek back to cover the destroyers, meant they died a bit quicker but I was making no 5++'s that game anyway so the chronometron didnt help at all lol.
- I build the list as you see (mostly), but only had 1 squad of destroyers and a DDA and TA. Then I dropped the DDA for 4 more destroyers, then realised that a TA is another squad of 5. A bit more jiggling around and I realised I could fit 15 in the list, and I would rather have 3x5 man squads than 1x5, 1x4 and 1x6 man units, as it gives pretty easy target priority to someone who knows how to negate RP by focusing a squad at a time down. The way I see it, once MD is up, you dont lose much at all from not having the extra in the unit with full rerolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah I ended up killing him from the tesseract vault. He brought down to 4 wounds from everything going at him (to be fair I was pretty stupid trying to take him on in cc) and then the swarmlord rolled 12 on smite and did 2 wounds to himself and 2 to my destroyer Lord, which the vault finished with cosmic fire. And the deceiver got hit first in cc before he got a change to hit back, it was what it was.
I like your list a lot. I just need to drop it down to 1500 for our local tournament rules.
This is what I am thinking.
Spoiler:
Catacomb Command Barge w/ warscythe
Destroyer Lord w / warscythe
Deceiver
Wraiths ( 5 of them )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Doomsday Ark
My issue is it's very low on command points, only 3 after using one for 2 artifacts for the hq's. That leaves very little room for stratagems but the force itself is incredibly fast and can output a lot of damage quickly. I could drop the dda for some immortals but I won't have any real way to get them around the board so I don't want to go that route.
I would personally drop the DDA for 4 more Destroyers if you have the models. Is the deciever meant to redeploy the destroyers? Your really need a cryptek with them to keep them alive, and id rock a Res orb on the D/lord if you could. You could chuck a VoD on a cryptek, blink him up the board with some destroyers, while the others get brought up with the Deciever if you wanted mobility?
Destroyers need cp. If you are running sautekh i would suggest a battalion minimum, and the sautekh warlord trait to farm them back. realistically in sautekh you are spending 3cp per turn on the destroyers. They are hungry for CP but it is extremely worth it. Immortals can camp objectives, score you points, which is crucial in most missions.
p5freak wrote: The vault has both CTAN SHARDS and DYNASTY. This means you dont get the dynasty benefits, but you can use their stratagems. Want to make your vault (almost) unkillable ? Make it nihilakh, place it within 3" of an objective marker, or dont move it, and play the nihilakh strat where you get +1 to sv rolls. And because the strat is used outside of a phase, at the end of your turn, you can play it as many times as you want. Play it twice and your vault gets a 2++ invuln sv. That will cost you 4 CP, though.
Fantastic!!! So how does that 2++ work where in the rules so I can show my opponents
What do you mean ? I explained everything in my post. You can only use a stratagem once inside a phase, BRBpg .215. Outside of a phase you can use the same stratagem as many times as you want. There is a discussion going on when outside of a phase actually is, because its undefined by the rules. There are two examples on pg. 215. Judging from that its clear to me that at the end of your turn is outside of a phase. At the end of your turn you play the nihilakh strat twice giving you +2 to your sv rolls. Your 4+ invuln sv turns into a 2+ invuln sv. If you get plus to your saving throws it applies to all your saves, including invuln sv. Thats written in the FAQs, dont remember where exactly.
Perfect brilliant page numbers and everything thanks a lot !!!!
Be aware, this is a dubious claim at best. End of turn is never defined as "out of a phase". In fact the example turn shows that the end of turn is the Morale Phase. The examples on 215 state "End of Battle Round" not player turn. Your best to take this to YMDC or talk with your TO about it.
Dead serious. As dead as Kutlakh was at the end of every game I've seen him in. As serious as robot skellies get. Tell us about your experiences if you feel he's good. I'm posting all my experiences in the hope other people will join so I can gather more data. As far as data goes I've got 2 losses with Kutlakh and one win AGAINST Kutlakh. So far no indication of Kutlakh armies being good even if Kutlakh looks ok on paper. Instead of using Kutlakh Nephrekh Lychguard you can just DS, the access to the Novokh Strat is a big enough issue that I don't think Kulakh makes them much better either. If we assume Lychguard + Overlord combo is good, then I still think Kutlakh needs a 20 pt drop like the OLord did, but if we take the fact that Kutlakh needs to make a sup-par unit worth it, he needs a 60-80 pt drop IMHO. Playing him without Lychguard seems silly so I haven't tried it.
I played another game with my Novokh Warrior-spam list, it did poorly against an Eldar list which featured no melee, unlike the Harlequins I beat. My opponent hid in a corner and put out some Wave Serpents to stop me from DSing near his main firebase. Despite me having board control he managed to pick up better objectives than me. Doom and jinx kills big units, just kind of the perfect counter for my list I figure.
Be aware, this is a dubious claim at best. End of turn is never defined as "out of a phase". In fact the example turn shows that the end of turn is the Morale Phase. The examples on 215 state "End of Battle Round" not player turn. Your best to take this to YMDC or talk with your TO about it.
There is a discussion going on in YMDC when outside/inside of a phase actually is. GW says you can play stratagems outside of a phase as many times as you want, but outside of a phase is undefined by the rules, except for the two examples on pg. 215.
Knights can gib Crypteks with those invuln ignoring missiles, ignoring LOS and character screening with the stratagem.
I will note that knights cannot fall back from Wraiths in combat since they are not *Infantry* or *Swarms* which is a nice plus.
It seems like Destroyers, Wraiths and Doomsday Arks are the go-to to me.
Harlies seem like something to treat like Dark Eldar. They are fast, but melt to anything they don't immediately destroy.
They also have some nasty sniping ability.
Maybe Sword and Board Lychguard? Dunno yet, won't see them on a board until Friday
You actually bring up a fantastic point about the Lychguard to protect from those Missiles. Do you think they'll actually be common enough to warrant Lychguard use though? I haven't been to the Knight Tactica thread but I know at minimum nobody makes mention of it in the AdMech one.
I don't think you can double play a stratagem, even if its at end of turn and not part of a phase. I would call a TO if someone tried this on me. Its very gamey.
As far as knights go, doomsday arks just laugh at them. 2 arks will crush a knight and have little fear of getting retaliated against from what I see. Yeah, they may kill the cryptek, but that seems like a waste of a perfectly good knight attack. Plus you can just try and reanimated the cryptek with the stratagem if they do snipe the cryptek.
As for the stratagem at the end of your turn it seems pretty simple to me. End of your turn is the end of the moral phase. There isn't a magical "half second" when your turn is ending but not in a phase but before your opponents first phase. Whatever phase your in when you say it's your turn it's now their movement phase. You have to say "ok, at the end of my turn I play this stratagem and it's now your turn".
I would be pissed if someone did it to me, don't do it to others. It's a silly thing to try and fight over. Don't be silly.
Knights can gib Crypteks with those invuln ignoring missiles, ignoring LOS and character screening with the stratagem.
I will note that knights cannot fall back from Wraiths in combat since they are not *Infantry* or *Swarms* which is a nice plus.
It seems like Destroyers, Wraiths and Doomsday Arks are the go-to to me.
Harlies seem like something to treat like Dark Eldar. They are fast, but melt to anything they don't immediately destroy.
They also have some nasty sniping ability.
Maybe Sword and Board Lychguard? Dunno yet, won't see them on a board until Friday
Thoughts?
IK can fall back from Wraiths, unless the Wraiths completely surround it. Because iirc, it just say "they can fall back and shoot / charge, and when they fall back they can walk over infantry and swarms" (which aims to not being trapped by high number units) As for killing the IK, I think anything that can kill Magnus or Morty quick could melt the IK quicl because most of them only have 5++
Harlequins is a troublesome enemy to Necrons. Outside being fast as you mentioned, (which grants them the inititive in choosing which part of the battlefield they want to engage and freedom in which piece of terrain they can seek shelter), you should never forget that they have army wide 4++, cumulative -1 to hit comes in cheap which WILL drop your shooting accuarcy down to Orks shooty level, furthermore, their psyker gives all Harlequin infantry -1 to enemy wound rolls by just standing near them. So calling them fragile is crimially misleading. They are actually one of the most durable army in 8th 40K. When they get to strike on you, even those MSU 5 man infantry, just do not expect anything of your Necrons could live till they get RP or Living Metal, except maybe the full strong unit of Wraiths or high toughness vehicles or 20 strong Warriors near Chono Crypteks.
I have yet to figure out the good way to deal with the Harlequins, maybe Ctan's power to pile MW on them, maybe Storm Lord plus MD stratagem on them. Maybe multiple layers of 20 men Warriors, (1st line got shoot, charged and killed, 2nd line can shoot at those infantry, if 2nd line got consolidated into 1", fall back and let 3rd line shoot). I am also seeking for the potential way to fight against them. Looking advises. Thanks dakkanuts
Could always try scarab swarms. They are fast, hit decently for their cost, have a bunch of wounds, and explode for d3 mortal wounds. Put a transcendant ctan in there for support and that's a decent amount of mortal wounds you can dish out. 2 to 3 ctan powers if you use the stratagem + d3 from a swarm popping. Don't know how economical it would be though.
Dynas wrote: I don't think you can double play a stratagem, even if its at end of turn and not part of a phase. I would call a TO if someone tried this on me. Its very gamey.
Yes, you can. Read the rules, BRBpg. 215.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: Could always try scarab swarms. They are fast, hit decently for their cost, have a bunch of wounds, and explode for d3 mortal wounds. Put a transcendant ctan in there for support and that's a decent amount of mortal wounds you can dish out. 2 to 3 ctan powers if you use the stratagem + d3 from a swarm popping. Don't know how economical it would be though.
Scarabs die pretty fast to knights. I had 7 scarabs fighting an armiger with chainsword, it took two turns and all 7 were killed. The armiger has 4 attacks at S12 AP-3 and D3. Each successful wound kills a scarab base. A knight can simply ignore them, and walk over them, to hit your ctan. You would need 12 scarabs, and 24 turns, to kill a knight with D3 MW. And it costs you 14 CP.
Azuza001 wrote: Could always try scarab swarms. They are fast, hit decently for their cost, have a bunch of wounds, and explode for d3 mortal wounds. Put a transcendant ctan in there for support and that's a decent amount of mortal wounds you can dish out. 2 to 3 ctan powers if you use the stratagem + d3 from a swarm popping. Don't know how economical it would be though.
Eh, other than smite distractions, it sounds like scarabs might not be too great vs harlies and Knights.
For knights, I know they can step over infantry and swarms, but I figured that also applied to the fallback mechanic. Figured wraiths could tie them up.
So....Harlequins have a -1 army wide to hit??
Is there a range restriction to that?
If not, Tesla is...really bad against them. You could MWBD to counter it, but they could also use a stratagem to grant another -1... Gauss AP is wasted.
Thoughts?
-How did the Nightbringer do in your list? What was his role in your army?
-You mentioned the Chrono-tek helping the survivability of the Destroyers. How was he able to keep up?
-Why squads of 5-man for your Destoyers?
-
Thanks man, im glad to answer your questions.
- I feel the mortal wound generation capabilities of C'tan shards are too good to pass up, and i try to include at least one in every list that I have. I usually default to the Nightbringer now, I have run combinations of all three now and pound for pound he just outperforms the others so much. 80% of the time i run the smite and pulse on him, as he wants to be close, so smite until you get there then just pulse mortal wounds. His role is pretty simple. Run up the board with the wraiths and put as much pressure on their front lines as possible. He is an absolute monster in CC, any non vehicle unit melts when he starts to look at them from shooting and he pumps out mortal wounds. Combined with entropic strike and he makes short work of archons 2++ just as well as flyrants. T7 and 8w with fly means he can just fly about, shooting, MW'ing and fighting whatever he needs to. Combined with the wraiths they soak up ALOT of firepower, the smart play is to focus down the destroyers but its hard to do this when you have a bunch of angry murder toasters protecting a cosmic murder machine bearing down on you.
- So this I haven't figured out completely yet, I was very lucky in my games this weekend. First game v nids they came to me, I didnt have to move much. Second and third games were variations of DoW, so range was never an issue. I have a couple of ideas how to get around it in future, there is a VoD in the list, which I could use to reposition, or I was thinking a HD in each squad to daisy chain back as he has longer range anyway. He needs to be 3" away, on average advance rolls he usually gets to where he needs to be, that and 24" range guns means the destroyers never usually need to go past half field, not a huge issue. The one game I lost him early I just flew my Cape-tek back to cover the destroyers, meant they died a bit quicker but I was making no 5++'s that game anyway so the chronometron didnt help at all lol.
- I build the list as you see (mostly), but only had 1 squad of destroyers and a DDA and TA. Then I dropped the DDA for 4 more destroyers, then realised that a TA is another squad of 5. A bit more jiggling around and I realised I could fit 15 in the list, and I would rather have 3x5 man squads than 1x5, 1x4 and 1x6 man units, as it gives pretty easy target priority to someone who knows how to negate RP by focusing a squad at a time down. The way I see it, once MD is up, you dont lose much at all from not having the extra in the unit with full rerolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah I ended up killing him from the tesseract vault. He brought down to 4 wounds from everything going at him (to be fair I was pretty stupid trying to take him on in cc) and then the swarmlord rolled 12 on smite and did 2 wounds to himself and 2 to my destroyer Lord, which the vault finished with cosmic fire. And the deceiver got hit first in cc before he got a change to hit back, it was what it was.
I like your list a lot. I just need to drop it down to 1500 for our local tournament rules.
This is what I am thinking.
Spoiler:
Catacomb Command Barge w/ warscythe
Destroyer Lord w / warscythe
Deceiver
Wraiths ( 5 of them )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Doomsday Ark
My issue is it's very low on command points, only 3 after using one for 2 artifacts for the hq's. That leaves very little room for stratagems but the force itself is incredibly fast and can output a lot of damage quickly. I could drop the dda for some immortals but I won't have any real way to get them around the board so I don't want to go that route.
I would personally drop the DDA for 4 more Destroyers if you have the models. Is the deciever meant to redeploy the destroyers? Your really need a cryptek with them to keep them alive, and id rock a Res orb on the D/lord if you could. You could chuck a VoD on a cryptek, blink him up the board with some destroyers, while the others get brought up with the Deciever if you wanted mobility?
Destroyers need cp. If you are running sautekh i would suggest a battalion minimum, and the sautekh warlord trait to farm them back. realistically in sautekh you are spending 3cp per turn on the destroyers. They are hungry for CP but it is extremely worth it. Immortals can camp objectives, score you points, which is crucial in most missions.
So that’s interesting I am curious how the nightbringer out performs the Transcendent when it can put out two powers a turn?
Azuza001 wrote: Could always try scarab swarms. They are fast, hit decently for their cost, have a bunch of wounds, and explode for d3 mortal wounds. Put a transcendant ctan in there for support and that's a decent amount of mortal wounds you can dish out. 2 to 3 ctan powers if you use the stratagem + d3 from a swarm popping. Don't know how economical it would be though.
Eh, other than smite distractions, it sounds like scarabs might not be too great vs harlies and Knights.
For knights, I know they can step over infantry and swarms, but I figured that also applied to the fallback mechanic. Figured wraiths could tie them up.
So....Harlequins have a -1 army wide to hit??
Is there a range restriction to that?
If not, Tesla is...really bad against them. You could MWBD to counter it, but they could also use a stratagem to grant another -1... Gauss AP is wasted.
Thoughts?
The scarabs are for harlequins. For knights all you need are doomsday arks. 2 dda, 2d6 shots at str 10 ap-4 and d6dmg, with quantum shielding not giving craps about many of their weapons, and 72" range, it shouldn't be an issue.
So that’s interesting I am curious how the nightbringer out performs the Transcendent when it can put out two powers a turn?
The Nightbringer is superior to the T. C'tan IMO. 15 points cheaper, better in melee against any non-vehicle that is T4 or higher and his Gaze of Death is pretty much equal to a second C'tan power.
On paper they seem pretty potent. Meph code+TA at rapid fire range means 10 can legitimately threaten most bog standard HQs on the drop. 2.6 MWs plus another 2 to 4 normal wounds depending on toughness and saves. One unit could seriously make most HQs at least a little hesitant, and two units can take care of event he tougher ones with little trouble.
That's also not using MWBD or Veil or anything else on them. For the cost of 1 CP you can really bring some pain.
I'm wondering how easy people will find it is to bubble wrap against it and how quickly we can remover that wrapper.
On paper they seem pretty potent. Meph code+TA at rapid fire range means 10 can legitimately threaten most bog standard HQs on the drop. 2.6 MWs plus another 2 to 4 normal wounds depending on toughness and saves. One unit could seriously make most HQs at least a little hesitant, and two units can take care of event he tougher ones with little trouble.
That's also not using MWBD or Veil or anything else on them. For the cost of 1 CP you can really bring some pain.
I'm wondering how easy people will find it is to bubble wrap against it and how quickly we can remover that wrapper.
Definitely want to try it! There are some things to take into consideration though;
-RAW says a unit using Auspex Scan or Forewarned can shoot at them before they get a chance to fire when using Ethereal Interception.
-You cannot use Solar Pulse and/or Talent for Annihilation when they use Ethereal Interception.
-You can block of a flank if the enemy is dropping in two units as a deep-strike combo. For instance, an IG enemy might drop in a unit of Scions. You then drop in the Deathmarks with Ethereal Interception. Make sure you create a semi-circle around them. Now there shouldn't be enough room for the Tempestor Prime to drop in the 6" order range.
The nightbringer can fight the swarmlord in combat, for a number of reasons.
His shooting attack that hits and wounds on 2+ and forces him on his invo should strip wounds before you get there, along with the mortal wounds from the C'tan powers youll be popping off. Once in combat it comes down to who can make more 4+ invuls, but if you can manage to get the first swing in combat, entropic strike with your fist hit you can usually swing the fight in your favour. He is not as easy as just running at and killing, you need to weaken him and fight on your terms but it is possible to kill him.
Hell ive killed him with a squad of wraiths before. 3++ is way better than 4++, and when each strike is doing 2d to him, it can do it. It took me about 6 rounds of combat to finally down him with the wraiths but they got the job done.
Well, considering that the Swarmlord has 3++ vs melee weapons, you were playing very wrong.
Knights can gib Crypteks with those invuln ignoring missiles, ignoring LOS and character screening with the stratagem.
I will note that knights cannot fall back from Wraiths in combat since they are not *Infantry* or *Swarms* which is a nice plus.
It seems like Destroyers, Wraiths and Doomsday Arks are the go-to to me.
Harlies seem like something to treat like Dark Eldar. They are fast, but melt to anything they don't immediately destroy.
They also have some nasty sniping ability.
Maybe Sword and Board Lychguard? Dunno yet, won't see them on a board until Friday
Thoughts?
I honestly can't imagine how Knights are going to be a problem if you're building a list with 3 DDAs and 6 Destroyers, on the other hand if you're not prepared there might not be much you can do. I haven't faced many Knights in 8th and at least a couple of them I faced with a Gauss Pylon, so I might be underestimating the threat.
If you charge an Imperial Knight with a unit of Wraiths but also charge a unit of Guardsmen, you get within 1" of the Guardsmen but not the Knight, destroy the Guardsmen. End of Fight Phase you attack again, pile into the Knight. Does the Knight get to attack?
Punish Harlies by surrounding their vehicles with your fast units, form a ring around them 1,5" away and then charge to just within 1". If you pop it in the Shooting phase the guys inside die and they also die if you destroy them in the Fight phase. Nephrekh units are great at surrounding vehicles and strangling units inside. Particle beamers should be great against their vehicles, they'll do more damage than Tesla against Harlequin vehicles because of the -1 to hit and the strength actually being relevant. If you run them with Nephrekh you can run up 20" to help strangle some clowns.
Have a good screen for your important units in case your opponent doesn't get close enough for you to surround his vehicles and instead decides to move out and charge from 20" away, don't let your opponent charge or use fusion pistols against your Destroyers/DDAs/Tesla Immortals. Anrakyr helps out a lot, counter-charging them is pretty effective since they need to strike first to win. Vehicle-less lists are good because while QS is great against fusion pistols, it's useless against haywire. Either a giant Scarab screen if your opponent doesn't use many of the D3 dmg melee weapons or a mix of Scarabs and Warriors if they do.
Don't get too greedy with your Destroyers firing at too many targets at once, if you're forced to shoot at vehicles with your Tesla Immortals you're having a bad time. Never shoot at one unit with a Tesla Immortal squad, always target at least 2 units to prevent your opponent from halving your firepower with -1 to hit.
Lychguard don't deal much damage, you might as well take more infantry, not only do you do the same damage in CC, have the same level of survivability if you invest in a Chronotek, you also get to shoot. I don't think they're not terrible against them, but you don't need the AP -3 weapons, I'd rather have more Wraiths or Scarabs. Remember with the Harlequins that they can move through your models, so you have to leave no way for the Solitaire to get within 1" of your Cryptek.
I played an ITC game against a Berserker Battalion with 3 Defilers supported by a Khorne Daemon Patrol with my Anrakyr/Szeras/Praetorian list. My opponent got first turn, I got one successful wound between Szeras, HDs and Anrakyr turn 1 dealing 2 or 3 damage, Berserkers and Bloodletters tore through 38 Warriors turn 2 while I failed to properly screen his Bloodletter bomb turn 2 letting them hold down my Praetorians so I couldn't counter-charge. I used one Scarab unit to stop two of my opponent's Defilers from shooting turn 2 and another unit I tried to hide because he had a mission to kill them, he wound up killing the second unit with his Bloodletters regardless. I should have used them to slow down his Berserkers and provided proper DS screening instead of spending a unit to slow down Defilers and trying to hide a unit just because of VP when it meant my opponent overwhelming me. I really want to cut down on the 9-man Scarab squad because of gang-busters, but I'm not sure what to spend my pts on, if I didn't mind having 3 units of Scarabs then I would definitely split it up into 7,6,3 which I will do if my opponent is bringing a competetive army. My Heavy Destroyers were Nephrekh, but I decided that I'd rather have them be Mephrit in future games so they can benefit from the Lord. Nephrekh Wraiths might be better than Praetorians, but Praetorians do have a lot more damage output vs. 1W models and they might actually be better in a list like this which is built to support them (Anrakyr can MWBD them and grants them +1 A, Szeras can improve their RP). I think HDs fit in this list more than DDAs do, but I think the whole concept of the list might be flawed.
Is it just me, or is Mephrit getting a bit of a bad rep for no reason?
I mean, look at the advantages it brings:
-Whatever infantry unit you Veil up (Warrior blob or Immortals) will have a nice boost in damage ouput.
-The DDA is, in my opinion, scarier as Mephrit than as Sautekh. I had a game where one DDA held a flank on its own against two units of Scions, thanks to the AP-2 of it's Gauss Array.
-its arguably the best dynasty for Tomb Blades. Especially Tesla ones, who can either stay save at 24" or go in for the kill at 12".
-Talent for Annihilation is an excellent stratagem that I pretty much use every turn. It simply ups a unit damage output by a fair amount. While not as powerful as Sautekh's Methodical Destruction, it is far more versatile and doesn't need a previous dealt wound to be activated.
I think a lot of people see Mephrit as a 'trap' dynasty, because Mephrit lists usually involve a lot of Warriors, thrown forward by the Deceiver. While this can lead to a powerful alpha-strike, it usually leads to a lot of dead Warriors. Many players use them too greedily because they want that sweet AP-2 on their Warriors.
Simply hang back and wait for the opportune moment to get into half range.
The big reason why Mephrit isn't chosen a lot is because it doesn't synergize well with two of your main units; Destroyers and Wraiths.
However, I think that creating a core of Warriors/Immortals as Mephrit and putting the Destroyers or Wraiths in an Auxiliary Support Detachment is the best way to use it.
Any consensus on Lychguard/Praetorians? I got 10 of em on sprues. I know neither choice is super competitve but I'm wondering how you guys have seen them perform.
I don't think it's a trap to use mephrit by itself, the trap is when it's overused. I mean, mephrit on warriors and immortals is great. Turning ap0 to ap-1 is very good, and ap-1 to ap-2 is amazing. I have used it when I wanted to show my opponent once why he was wrong to think that my warriors couldn't hurt his predator tank. Hitting on 2's (mwbd), wounding on 5's, with 40 shots, ended up doing 7 wounds after saves. Friendly game and not much else to shoot at with them.
The trap becomes "I have to get into half range or my trait was a waste" line of thinking. I have seen it happen. People moving their doomsday arks up to get next turn ap-5 because ap-4 wasn't good enough?
Point is there are 2 ways to make a competitive list with Necrons and their dynastys.
1. Pick the dynasty you like then find the best units that work with that dynasty to get the most out of it.
2. Pick the units you like and then find the dynasty that helps them the most.
These are not the same things. I took nilitak in my recent game, and that army had 4 units in it that could take advantage of the don't move reroll 1's. 2 doomsday arks, tesseract vault, and catacomb command barge. Everything else was already a destroyer. If I was working off of build design 1 I probably would have gone with mephrit. My enemy targets were right up on me all game (freaking speed nids) and mephrit would have been useful a few times when my opponent had 6+ saves that he made like a boss. But I went with 2 because I wanted my dda to be sure to hit and I wanted to get my tesseract vault at 2+/3++ save on an objective middle of the table for maximum annoyance.
I think if I was to go full mephrit it would be with destroyers, dda, and annihilation barges with destroyers on flanks.
Oh, different question, can the nilitak stratagem work on wraiths? The idea of 2++ wraiths sitting in combat wreaking face is just.... so tempting......
So I just picked up the 2016 start collecting box of crons as a project, and a clamshell cryptek cause he looked cool. not sure of my meta as I recently moved to a new state (from the Columbus ga area to the st. lous area. But looking through the book I kinda dig the suahtek dynasty. (I like the idea of assault guns every where)
At best I'm a casual player I normally play straight guard. any thoughts on what to pick up next? I was thinking forgebane.
vict0988 wrote:
If you charge an Imperial Knight with a unit of Wraiths but also charge a unit of Guardsmen, you get within 1" of the Guardsmen but not the Knight, destroy the Guardsmen. End of Fight Phase you attack again, pile into the Knight. Does the Knight get to attack?
Yes, any models who are within 1" of enemy models, or charged, can attack.
Doctoralex wrote:
-Whatever infantry unit you Veil up (Warrior blob or Immortals) will have a nice boost in damage ouput.
Unless its a melee unit, who doesnt benefit from mephrit, it will get tied up in CC, and cant shoot next turn.
Doctoralex wrote:
-its arguably the best dynasty for Tomb Blades. Especially Tesla ones, who can either stay save at 24" or go in for the kill at 12".
Agreed, in this case mephrit makes sense because they can FLY. Even if they get tied up in melee, they can still fallback and shoot.
Doctoralex wrote:
I think a lot of people see Mephrit as a 'trap' dynasty, because Mephrit lists usually involve a lot of Warriors, thrown forward by the Deceiver. While this can lead to a powerful alpha-strike, it usually leads to a lot of dead Warriors. Many players use them too greedily because they want that sweet AP-2 on their Warriors.
Simply hang back and wait for the opportune moment to get into half range.
Most games are over by turn 3. How long do you want to wait ??
Doctoralex wrote:
The big reason why Mephrit isn't chosen a lot is because it doesn't synergize well with two of your main units; Destroyers and Wraiths.
However, I think that creating a core of Warriors/Immortals as Mephrit and putting the Destroyers or Wraiths in an Auxiliary Support Detachment is the best way to use it.
Wasting a command point ? Not a good idea.
Azuza001 wrote:
Oh, different question, can the nilitak stratagem work on wraiths? The idea of 2++ wraiths sitting in combat wreaking face is just.... so tempting......
Yes it does. The dynasty is called nihilakh.
rvd1ofakind wrote:"I can win a GT with an army with no guns. I'm not sure I could do it with crons" - Nick Nanavati
rvd1ofakind wrote:"I can win a GT with an army with no guns. I'm not sure I could do it with crons" - Nick Nanavati
FeelsBadMan
Is that the IDICbeer 40k guy on youtube ?
He is probably the most successful 40k player in the world. 8th ed especially: 4 out of 5 #1 in adepticon in a row (2nd the one time he didn't place 1st), won the 2018 LVO (biggest tournament ever) and won the ITC for the year where 8th ed started (aka won the most big tournaments)
rvd1ofakind wrote:"I can win a GT with an army with no guns. I'm not sure I could do it with crons" - Nick Nanavati
FeelsBadMan
Is that the IDICbeer 40k guy on youtube ?
He is probably the most successful 40k player in the world. 8th ed especially: 4 out of 5 #1 in adepticon in a row (2nd the one time he didn't place 1st), won the 2018 LVO (biggest tournament ever) and won the ITC for the year where 8th ed started (aka won the most big tournaments)
Ok, so he is not IDICbeer 40k on youtube. Obviously he knows how to play. We have some good melee units, probably not the best, but surely not the worst either, so i have no idea why he said that. 3*6 wraiths would surely wreak havoc upon anything they encounter, even on a GT.
[spoiler]Awesome writeup! Got a couple of questions;
-How did the Nightbringer do in your list? What was his role in your army?
-You mentioned the Chrono-tek helping the survivability of the Destroyers. How was he able to keep up?
-Why squads of 5-man for your Destoyers?
-
Thanks man, im glad to answer your questions.
- I feel the mortal wound generation capabilities of C'tan shards are too good to pass up, and i try to include at least one in every list that I have. I usually default to the Nightbringer now, I have run combinations of all three now and pound for pound he just outperforms the others so much. 80% of the time i run the smite and pulse on him, as he wants to be close, so smite until you get there then just pulse mortal wounds. His role is pretty simple. Run up the board with the wraiths and put as much pressure on their front lines as possible. He is an absolute monster in CC, any non vehicle unit melts when he starts to look at them from shooting and he pumps out mortal wounds. Combined with entropic strike and he makes short work of archons 2++ just as well as flyrants. T7 and 8w with fly means he can just fly about, shooting, MW'ing and fighting whatever he needs to. Combined with the wraiths they soak up ALOT of firepower, the smart play is to focus down the destroyers but its hard to do this when you have a bunch of angry murder toasters protecting a cosmic murder machine bearing down on you.
- So this I haven't figured out completely yet, I was very lucky in my games this weekend. First game v nids they came to me, I didnt have to move much. Second and third games were variations of DoW, so range was never an issue. I have a couple of ideas how to get around it in future, there is a VoD in the list, which I could use to reposition, or I was thinking a HD in each squad to daisy chain back as he has longer range anyway. He needs to be 3" away, on average advance rolls he usually gets to where he needs to be, that and 24" range guns means the destroyers never usually need to go past half field, not a huge issue. The one game I lost him early I just flew my Cape-tek back to cover the destroyers, meant they died a bit quicker but I was making no 5++'s that game anyway so the chronometron didnt help at all lol.
- I build the list as you see (mostly), but only had 1 squad of destroyers and a DDA and TA. Then I dropped the DDA for 4 more destroyers, then realised that a TA is another squad of 5. A bit more jiggling around and I realised I could fit 15 in the list, and I would rather have 3x5 man squads than 1x5, 1x4 and 1x6 man units, as it gives pretty easy target priority to someone who knows how to negate RP by focusing a squad at a time down. The way I see it, once MD is up, you dont lose much at all from not having the extra in the unit with full rerolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah I ended up killing him from the tesseract vault. He brought down to 4 wounds from everything going at him (to be fair I was pretty stupid trying to take him on in cc) and then the swarmlord rolled 12 on smite and did 2 wounds to himself and 2 to my destroyer Lord, which the vault finished with cosmic fire. And the deceiver got hit first in cc before he got a change to hit back, it was what it was.
I like your list a lot. I just need to drop it down to 1500 for our local tournament rules.
This is what I am thinking.
[spoiler]
Catacomb Command Barge w/ warscythe
Destroyer Lord w / warscythe
Deceiver
Wraiths ( 5 of them )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Doomsday Ark
My issue is it's very low on command points, only 3 after using one for 2 artifacts for the hq's. That leaves very little room for stratagems but the force itself is incredibly fast and can output a lot of damage quickly. I could drop the dda for some immortals but I won't have any real way to get them around the board so I don't want to go that route.
I would personally drop the DDA for 4 more Destroyers if you have the models. Is the deciever meant to redeploy the destroyers? Your really need a cryptek with them to keep them alive, and id rock a Res orb on the D/lord if you could. You could chuck a VoD on a cryptek, blink him up the board with some destroyers, while the others get brought up with the Deciever if you wanted mobility?
Destroyers need cp. If you are running sautekh i would suggest a battalion minimum, and the sautekh warlord trait to farm them back. realistically in sautekh you are spending 3cp per turn on the destroyers. They are hungry for CP but it is extremely worth it. Immortals can camp objectives, score you points, which is crucial in most missions.
[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
So that’s interesting I am curious how the nightbringer out performs the Transcendent when it can put out two powers a turn?
Its not just the mortal wounds, he is cheaper, has a fleshbane shooting attack and also has fleshbane in combat. While the T/ctan is superior in powers, literally every other metric the nightbringer is better, while also being cheaper
Doctoralex wrote:
So that’s interesting I am curious how the nightbringer out performs the Transcendent when it can put out two powers a turn?
The Nightbringer is superior to the T. C'tan IMO. 15 points cheaper, better in melee against any non-vehicle that is T4 or higher and his Gaze of Death is pretty much equal to a second C'tan power.
Yeah pretty much this
Raxxamous wrote:
The nightbringer can fight the swarmlord in combat, for a number of reasons.
His shooting attack that hits and wounds on 2+ and forces him on his invo should strip wounds before you get there, along with the mortal wounds from the C'tan powers youll be popping off. Once in combat it comes down to who can make more 4+ invuls, but if you can manage to get the first swing in combat, entropic strike with your fist hit you can usually swing the fight in your favour. He is not as easy as just running at and killing, you need to weaken him and fight on your terms but it is possible to kill him.
Hell ive killed him with a squad of wraiths before. 3++ is way better than 4++, and when each strike is doing 2d to him, it can do it. It took me about 6 rounds of combat to finally down him with the wraiths but they got the job done.
Well, considering that the Swarmlord has 3++ vs melee weapons, you were playing very wrong.
I mean, Its not up to me to know his rules. Granted with the 3++ there is probably no way I was winning that fight.
Well, considering that the Swarmlord has 3++ vs melee weapons, you were playing very wrong.
If he killed the swarmlord with his wraiths its not him who played wrong.
Yeah, it was a wet noodle fight for a very long time, i was rolling super hot on my 3++'s, but he was too for his saves. I looked at it as I had just tied up the swarmlord for 3 turns, I was very happy with that.
rvd1ofakind wrote:"I can win a GT with an army with no guns. I'm not sure I could do it with crons" - Nick Nanavati
FeelsBadMan
Is that the IDICbeer 40k guy on youtube ?
He is probably the most successful 40k player in the world. 8th ed especially: 4 out of 5 #1 in adepticon in a row (2nd the one time he didn't place 1st), won the 2018 LVO (biggest tournament ever) and won the ITC for the year where 8th ed started (aka won the most big tournaments)
Ok, so he is not IDICbeer 40k on youtube. Obviously he knows how to play. We have some good melee units, probably not the best, but surely not the worst either, so i have no idea why he said that. 3*6 wraiths would surely wreak havoc upon anything they encounter, even on a GT.
That's 900 points that could be killed as easy as 270 pts of guard infantry with mortal wounds. O hi, popular and strong thousand sons DP, Ahriman smite spam lists.
And he said he can he can win chaos with no guns. It has nothing to do with melee necrons.
That's 900 points that could be killed as easy as 270 pts of guard infantry with mortal wounds. O hi, popular and strong thousand sons DP, Ahriman smite spam lists.
And he said he can he can win chaos with no guns. It has nothing to do with melee necrons.
Wow, impressive. Its hard not to win if you can do something like 20 smites per turn. Send scarabs first, they are perfect for taking smites.
That's 900 points that could be killed as easy as 270 pts of guard infantry with mortal wounds. O hi, popular and strong thousand sons DP, Ahriman smite spam lists.
And he said he can he can win chaos with no guns. It has nothing to do with melee necrons.
Wow, impressive. Its hard not to win if you can do something like 20 smites per turn. Send scarabs first, they are perfect for taking smites.
Yes, however wraiths will want to be in close combat - meaning they most likelly be the closest unit past turn 1. Also scarabs can easily be handled by Pink horrors(low armor, T3 = perfect target for them) and the like.
And obviously they will not die to smite alone. It's just that smite really hard counters them.
I think what p5freak meant is that you'll want to move the Scarabs in front of the Wraiths until you're in charge range. Obviously, you want to get the Wraiths into melee, but that doesn't mean that you have to leave them vulnerable to "target the closest unit" abilities.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "I can win a GT with an army with no guns. I'm not sure I could do it with crons" - Nick Nanavati
FeelsBadMan
Haha, when/where did he say this?
I was wondering the same. Nick's a good player and an even better person but this is a pretty silly comment considering they've already placed as high as 3rd and have barely been out long enough to scratch the surface of their potential.
On paper they seem pretty potent. Meph code+TA at rapid fire range means 10 can legitimately threaten most bog standard HQs on the drop. 2.6 MWs plus another 2 to 4 normal wounds depending on toughness and saves. One unit could seriously make most HQs at least a little hesitant, and two units can take care of event he tougher ones with little trouble.
That's also not using MWBD or Veil or anything else on them. For the cost of 1 CP you can really bring some pain.
I'm wondering how easy people will find it is to bubble wrap against it and how quickly we can remover that wrapper.
I used them for a bit. Granted I only own 5 but they were the first unit dead every game. probably would have better results if I owned 10 and ran it that way
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: Any consensus on Lychguard/Praetorians? I got 10 of em on sprues. I know neither choice is super competitve but I'm wondering how you guys have seen them perform.
SPikeyBits did a really in depth analysis.
I think Lychguard with sword and Shields are the way to go
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: Any consensus on Lychguard/Praetorians? I got 10 of em on sprues. I know neither choice is super competitve but I'm wondering how you guys have seen them perform.
SPikeyBits did a really in depth analysis.
I think Lychguard with sword and Shields are the way to go
They are expensive enough for what they do that they need carefully planned out synergy with the rest of the army. How do you plan to build your army? That will likely govern what unit configuration you can make best use of
That's 49/9 hits, on average.
98/27 wounds.
196/81 unsaved wounds.
686/81 damage, or 8.47 damage.
Doesn't even bracket a Knight.
Meanwhile, a Warden that shoots you with an Avenger Gatling Cannon does...
12 shots.
8 hit.
4 wounds.
8/3 unsaved (DDAs have a 3+, right?).
20/9 past Quantum Shielding, or 2.22 damage.
If he also gets the Heavy Flamer, that's...
7/2 hits.
7/6 wounds.
7/12 unsaved, or .58 damage.
Not much extra, but that does mean he's in charge range, which will do...
12 attacks.
8 hits.
16/3 wounds.
32/9 unsaved.
80/27 past Quantum Shielding.
160/27 damage, or 5.93 damage.
In total, in one turn, a Warden can do 8.73 damage to a DDA. Or, to put it another way, the DDAs take more damage than they dish out. And if the Warden has a Gauntlet to use Death Grip with...
That's 49/9 hits, on average.
98/27 wounds.
196/81 unsaved wounds.
686/81 damage, or 8.47 damage.
Doesn't even bracket a Knight.
Meanwhile, a Warden that shoots you with an Avenger Gatling Cannon does...
12 shots.
8 hit.
4 wounds.
8/3 unsaved (DDAs have a 3+, right?).
20/9 past Quantum Shielding, or 2.22 damage.
If he also gets the Heavy Flamer, that's...
7/2 hits.
7/6 wounds.
7/12 unsaved, or .58 damage.
Not much extra, but that does mean he's in charge range, which will do...
12 attacks.
8 hits.
16/3 wounds.
32/9 unsaved.
80/27 past Quantum Shielding.
160/27 damage, or 5.93 damage.
In total, in one turn, a Warden can do 8.73 damage to a DDA. Or, to put it another way, the DDAs take more damage than they dish out. And if the Warden has a Gauntlet to use Death Grip with...
Is it possible to add in Min/Max or above average/below average damage stats? I think this is something everyone should consider doing on this site because very rarely are you going to do the average. For me at least lately I have been doing well above the average for most rolls. Back in 7th for some reason every roll I made was below. Considering this range will also hopefully help flesh out additional strategies. I mean 1 DDA with perfect rolling and failed saves puts out 36 damage, with the cannon alone. I have used it against LR's and occasionally against knights but I usually end up with 4 shots and 3 hits. Then for me at least i wound 3 as well. I know this may be rare but it happens too frequent to not be considered.
Doomsday arks are d6 shots, so on average 3 to 4 shots. 2 of them and saying 7 shots is fair.
To hit you need 3's. If you go with the nihlitak (sp?) Dynasty that's rerolling ones so say 5 to 6 hits. Wounds on 3's, so 3 to 4 wounds, and a 5++ save will probably save 1 of those, so that's 2 to 3 getting through, doing d6 damage each or on average 6-9 Wounds, your right there. But quantum shielding will protect your dda from the bigger stuff those knights can dish out, and how did you let the knight get that close to your dda? You have range 72", so the chance they get into combat range past your entire army is slim. I still hold 2 dda throughout the battle will destroy a knight. Can they 1 turn destroy them? No, but they can potentially do that and they will blow it away by turn 3.
There is no such thing as a perfect counter. But I put my money on our arks over what a marine could take to deal with said knight.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "I can win a GT with an army with no guns. I'm not sure I could do it with crons" - Nick Nanavati
FeelsBadMan
Haha, when/where did he say this?
I was wondering the same. Nick's a good player and an even better person but this is a pretty silly comment considering they've already placed as high as 3rd and have barely been out long enough to scratch the surface of their potential.
Competitive 40kFB group yesterday. The admin wrote: "challenge to Nick Brown: win a GT with necrons" and that was the response
p5freak wrote: Yes, scarabs move in front of wraith. They take the smites, wraith move over them, and attack whatever there is.
I've yet to have a game where scarabs screened and survived past turn 1.
Screens aren't supposed to survive deep into the game, man. They're supposed to soak up the damage that would otherwise be going to your more valuable units. Any damage your Scarabs actually do is just gravy. There is this weird mentality in the 40k community that if a unit doesn't kill its own value in other units, that unit has failed. Not everything is meant to be an offensive powerhouse.
Doctoralex wrote: Is it just me, or is Mephrit getting a bit of a bad rep for no reason?
There's a few vocal rascals in this thread who have declared Mephrit garbage and also refuse to give any reasons why. They're just very loud. Don't listen to them.
Most people know Mephrit is pretty good in the right places.
If I remember correctly, modifiers don't apply to Overwatch unless specifically stated. The reason Tesla still applies is that it's a to-hit roll of 6+.
nintura wrote: So then what happens if you overwatch while having a +1 to hit but roll a 5? You miss overwatch but Tesla still triggers?
Nothing.
Overwatch always hits on a 6+, regardless of ANY modifiers. Even if the enemy is -3 to hit or the Immortals have +1 from MWBD, they will always hit on a 6 and, since modifiers cant affect overwatch, procc Telsa on said 6.
nintura wrote: So then what happens if you overwatch while having a +1 to hit but roll a 5? You miss overwatch but Tesla still triggers?
Nothing.
Overwatch always hits on a 6+, regardless of ANY modifiers. Even if the enemy is -3 to hit or the Immortals have +1 from MWBD, they will always hit on a 6 and, since modifiers cant affect overwatch, procc Telsa on said 6.
Right but that's not what I'm asking. Rolling a 5 with a +1 to hit means you still miss in Overwatch, but you still rolled a modified hit roll of 6 which would technically trigger the two extra hits with Tesla.
nintura wrote: So then what happens if you overwatch while having a +1 to hit but roll a 5? You miss overwatch but Tesla still triggers?
Nothing.
Overwatch always hits on a 6+, regardless of ANY modifiers. Even if the enemy is -3 to hit or the Immortals have +1 from MWBD, they will always hit on a 6 and, since modifiers cant affect overwatch, procc Telsa on said 6.
Right but that's not what I'm asking. Rolling a 5 with a +1 to hit means you still miss in Overwatch, but you still rolled a modified hit roll of 6 which would technically trigger the two extra hits with Tesla.
It doesn't matter if you are +1 to hit. Overwatch ignores any to-hit modifiers the unit has, positive or negative.
Not asking about overwatch. Yes, I realize overwatch misses. I'm asking about the Tesla check and trigger. It goes in 3 phases.
Unmodified Roll: Overwatch see's a 5. it misses.
Add modifiers: +1 to hit, makes your 5 a 6
Tesla Checks: Tesla see's a 6 was rolled. Trigger Tesla.
General Handbook:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll,irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.
Maybe someone else help explain it. Overwatch ignores any modifiers you have. You don't add or remove hit modifiers. You roll to hit and any 6's are hits. Any effects on those 6's (like Tesla) happen as normal.
Else a unit of Tomb Blades could charge an enemy unit and be immune to overwatch, thanks to their -1 to hit.
Triarch Praetorians are surprisingly good if your metric is trash, which they're not. I don't think you'll ever take them because they're the best unit in your meta for the pts, but they have cool models and rules, just not so cool pts. I think Lychguard are about as good as TPs, because they can get by with a Cryptek instead of Szeras and they get Dynasties. But their movement is way less fun and suffering from morale is gak, but I suppose you wouldn't care about that with a unit of 5. It makes limited sense to take a unit of 5 Lychguard with shields because you won't ever have a good place to use the +1 invul strat I don't think. If your army has other things that your opponent wants to shoot then Lychguard seem a lot better, if you have DDAs eating up D2 weapons and Scarabs eating infantry weapons, then you're left with D6 damage weapons and if you have a Cryptek then it's not too terrible. Take Wraiths or Scarabs if you want to be competitive. Nephrekh Wraiths and Scarabs are really amazing.
I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games. Voidblade/Particle caster is always the correct choice for Triarch Praetorians. I'm still vary of the shields after playing them a couple of times when they were 37 pts, which was Monolith-tier bad, but maybe they're the better choice with the new strat. I still feel like shields should be cheaper than warscythes, remember, every time you spend a CP on shieldguard to make them tougher you could have made your scytheguard deadlier instead. I'd put Anrakyr in any army featuring TPs or LG, for +1 A obviously, but also for TPs because he's the only one who can MWBD them, for LG because he can MWBD Novokh or Nephrekh LG or the Immortals in your Mephrit or Sautekh Battalion. His ability should just work for Immortals IMO, he's kind of a must-take in melee armies that don't focus on C'tan or Canoptek units.
nintura wrote: So then what happens if you overwatch while having a +1 to hit...
You don't get +1 to hit while shooting Overwatch. Read the core rules another time buddy, they're not that long this edition. I need to get my act together and thoroughly read all the codices and FAQ as well.
nintura wrote: So then what happens if you overwatch while having a +1 to hit...
You don't get +1 to hit while shooting Overwatch. Read the core rules another time buddy, they're not that long this edition. I need to get my act together and thoroughly read all the codices and FAQ as well.
MWBD gives +1 to hit until your next turn, which happens in your opponents turn if they charge you.
*EDIT: Ok, it gives +1 to hit rolls. Overwatch still says unmodified hit roll. So it's still a hit roll. You'd miss with overwatch but still trigger Tesla for the 2 free hits.
Are Death Marks secretly good? I've been playing with them alot in a Mephrit army and I'd like to make a case for them being at least underrated.
Mobile screen with mortal wound output.
I run a very mobile army with a deciver and VoD. DS units like flyrants, Bloodletter bomb, Buffed BA capt etc can be intercepted you can shoot in opponents turn, use Mephrit strat for 6s causing additional rolls with -1 on the regular wounds. I feel this shooting and MW output in your opponents turn is really underrated. In addition, you can screen target units adding charge distance or putting a unit completely out of reach of your opponent.
Another option is intercepting an enemy unit, putting them in cover by an objective and forcing your opponent to deal with them as a very mobile distraction carnefex. They also have RP which adds to their resilience with the +1 for being in cover.
Not asking about overwatch. Yes, I realize overwatch misses. I'm asking about the Tesla check and trigger. It goes in 3 phases.
Unmodified Roll: Overwatch see's a 5. it misses.
Add modifiers: +1 to hit, makes your 5 a 6
Tesla Checks: Tesla see's a 6 was rolled. Trigger Tesla.
General Handbook:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll,irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.
Maybe someone else help explain it. Overwatch ignores any modifiers you have. You don't add or remove hit modifiers. You roll to hit and any 6's are hits. Any effects on those 6's (like Tesla) happen as normal.
Else a unit of Tomb Blades could charge an enemy unit and be immune to overwatch, thanks to their -1 to hit.
Seems he understands just fine? Isn't he saying again and again that the overwatch misses? No need knocking down an open door.
He's asking about the tesla proc. Nothing in tesla rule says the shot must be a successfull hit roll. That's only for the overwtach hit and thats a miss, everybody agrees with you there.
nintura: Read the Tesla rule carefully, nowhere does it say that you get two additional hits (in those words).
Np, however as you can see from the Tesla rule it says on a 6+ (abd yes, not on a succesfull hit!), it causes 3 hits instead of 1.
This is clearly different from saying "it grants two extra hits" (eventhough that is often the result)
This is a problem however, as it can't really cause 3 hits instead of 1, if there isn't a 1 hit in the first place (which there isn't on a 5+ in overwatch)
vict0988 wrote: Triarch Praetorians are surprisingly good if your metric is trash, which they're not. I don't think you'll ever take them because they're the best unit in your meta for the pts, but they have cool models and rules, just not so cool pts. I think Lychguard are about as good as TPs, because they can get by with a Cryptek instead of Szeras and they get Dynasties. But their movement is way less fun and suffering from morale is gak, but I suppose you wouldn't care about that with a unit of 5. It makes limited sense to take a unit of 5 Lychguard with shields because you won't ever have a good place to use the +1 invul strat I don't think. If your army has other things that your opponent wants to shoot then Lychguard seem a lot better, if you have DDAs eating up D2 weapons and Scarabs eating infantry weapons, then you're left with D6 damage weapons and if you have a Cryptek then it's not too terrible. Take Wraiths or Scarabs if you want to be competitive. Nephrekh Wraiths and Scarabs are really amazing.
I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games. Voidblade/Particle caster is always the correct choice for Triarch Praetorians. I'm still vary of the shields after playing them a couple of times when they were 37 pts, which was Monolith-tier bad, but maybe they're the better choice with the new strat. I still feel like shields should be cheaper than warscythes, remember, every time you spend a CP on shieldguard to make them tougher you could have made your scytheguard deadlier instead. I'd put Anrakyr in any army featuring TPs or LG, for +1 A obviously, but also for TPs because he's the only one who can MWBD them, for LG because he can MWBD Novokh or Nephrekh LG or the Immortals in your Mephrit or Sautekh Battalion. His ability should just work for Immortals IMO, he's kind of a must-take in melee armies that don't focus on C'tan or Canoptek units.
nintura wrote: So then what happens if you overwatch while having a +1 to hit...
You don't get +1 to hit while shooting Overwatch. Read the core rules another time buddy, they're not that long this edition. I need to get my act together and thoroughly read all the codices and FAQ as well.
Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll,irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.
This doesn't say anything about Overwatch ignoring modifiers. It says a 6 is always a hit.
p5freak wrote: Yes, scarabs move in front of wraith. They take the smites, wraith move over them, and attack whatever there is.
I've yet to have a game where scarabs screened and survived past turn 1.
Screens aren't supposed to survive deep into the game, man. They're supposed to soak up the damage that would otherwise be going to your more valuable units. Any damage your Scarabs actually do is just gravy. There is this weird mentality in the 40k community that if a unit doesn't kill its own value in other units, that unit has failed. Not everything is meant to be an offensive powerhouse.
GEEEEZ.
I'm not dumb :p
You say scarabs screen off smites from wraiths. I say wraiths die to smite because scarabs die turn 1 and there's nothing to screen the wraiths anymore for turn 2,3... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.
I will face a 2700 pts DeathGuard/Nugle Daemons army this weekend. He brings A LOT of bodies (poxwalker/cultists/marines)
What do you think about this list? Im thinking about ditching the blades and get another warrior screen within the nephrek outrider instead. but i guess both choices are quite comparable.
Transcendent C'tan [12 PL, 225pts]: Fractured Personality: Cosmic Tyrant, Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 175pts] . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
++ Total: [149 PL, 2710pts] ++
Its supposed to be a friendly, otherwise we wouldnt play that many points. My opponent will field a great unclean one, which i have still no idea how to defeat. Any hints?
Tesla, overwatch and MWBD misses on a 5. You don't even get two additional hits. Tesla says 3 hits instead of 1 on a hit roll of 6+. But you only hit on natural 6s on overwatch. The +1 from MWBD is ignored. You cant get 3 hits if you dont get the 1 hit. Tesla rule doesnt trigger because of that.
p5freak wrote: Yes, scarabs move in front of wraith. They take the smites, wraith move over them, and attack whatever there is.
I've yet to have a game where scarabs screened and survived past turn 1.
Screens aren't supposed to survive deep into the game, man. They're supposed to soak up the damage that would otherwise be going to your more valuable units. Any damage your Scarabs actually do is just gravy. There is this weird mentality in the 40k community that if a unit doesn't kill its own value in other units, that unit has failed. Not everything is meant to be an offensive powerhouse.
GEEEEZ.
I'm not dumb :p
You say scarabs screen off smites from wraiths. I say wraiths die to smite because scarabs die turn 1 and there's nothing to screen the wraiths anymore for turn 2,3... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.
Smiting comes before shooting. Your opponent smites the scarabs because they are the closest enemy unit or he does something else in his psychic phase.
vict0988 wrote: Triarch Praetorians are surprisingly good if your metric is trash, which they're not. I don't think you'll ever take them because they're the best unit in your meta for the pts, but they have cool models and rules, just not so cool pts. I think Lychguard are about as good as TPs, because they can get by with a Cryptek instead of Szeras and they get Dynasties. But their movement is way less fun and suffering from morale is gak, but I suppose you wouldn't care about that with a unit of 5. It makes limited sense to take a unit of 5 Lychguard with shields because you won't ever have a good place to use the +1 invul strat I don't think. If your army has other things that your opponent wants to shoot then Lychguard seem a lot better, if you have DDAs eating up D2 weapons and Scarabs eating infantry weapons, then you're left with D6 damage weapons and if you have a Cryptek then it's not too terrible. Take Wraiths or Scarabs if you want to be competitive. Nephrekh Wraiths and Scarabs are really amazing.
I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games. Voidblade/Particle caster is always the correct choice for Triarch Praetorians. I'm still vary of the shields after playing them a couple of times when they were 37 pts, which was Monolith-tier bad, but maybe they're the better choice with the new strat. I still feel like shields should be cheaper than warscythes, remember, every time you spend a CP on shieldguard to make them tougher you could have made your scytheguard deadlier instead. I'd put Anrakyr in any army featuring TPs or LG, for +1 A obviously, but also for TPs because he's the only one who can MWBD them, for LG because he can MWBD Novokh or Nephrekh LG or the Immortals in your Mephrit or Sautekh Battalion. His ability should just work for Immortals IMO, he's kind of a must-take in melee armies that don't focus on C'tan or Canoptek units.
nintura wrote: So then what happens if you overwatch while having a +1 to hit...
You don't get +1 to hit while shooting Overwatch. Read the core rules another time buddy, they're not that long this edition. I need to get my act together and thoroughly read all the codices and FAQ as well.
Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems
I have tested LG with warscythes and even had limited success with them. Zandrekh + Obyron solves their movement problem. Although thats a lot of points and unit is still very vulnerable to d2 shooting. In tournament i lost both games where LG unit was wiped before get their points back - by reapers and obliterators. Riptides is also a respective threat.
If I would write list now, it would look like this:
Spoiler:
Sautekh +5 CP
HQ: Nemezor Zandrekh [180]
HQ: Vanguard Obyron [140]
Elites: 10x Lychguard with Warscythes [300]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Sautekh, Nephrekh +1 CP HQ: Cryptek (70) - Staff of Light (10) [80] (Sautekh) Artefact: Veil of Darkness
Fast Attack: 6x Destroyers [300] (Nephrekh)
Fast Attack: 4x Canoptek Scarabs [52] (Nephrekh)
Fast Attack: 4x Canoptek Scarabs [52] (Nephrekh)
Total: 2000
CP: 9
Scythes under MWBD, reroll 1s to wound, +1 str stratagem, double TP (cryptek teleports Zandrekh \ Zandrekh advances, Obyron with LG teleports on him) just slice through everything.
Still, wraiths are more competitive choice - Zandrekh is horribly overcosted model.
LG with shields are just bad. They are expensive and can't fight vehicles. Don't use them.
vict0988 wrote: Triarch Praetorians are surprisingly good if your metric is trash, which they're not. I don't think you'll ever take them because they're the best unit in your meta for the pts, but they have cool models and rules, just not so cool pts. I think Lychguard are about as good as TPs, because they can get by with a Cryptek instead of Szeras and they get Dynasties. But their movement is way less fun and suffering from morale is gak, but I suppose you wouldn't care about that with a unit of 5. It makes limited sense to take a unit of 5 Lychguard with shields because you won't ever have a good place to use the +1 invul strat I don't think. If your army has other things that your opponent wants to shoot then Lychguard seem a lot better, if you have DDAs eating up D2 weapons and Scarabs eating infantry weapons, then you're left with D6 damage weapons and if you have a Cryptek then it's not too terrible. Take Wraiths or Scarabs if you want to be competitive. Nephrekh Wraiths and Scarabs are really amazing.
I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games. Voidblade/Particle caster is always the correct choice for Triarch Praetorians. I'm still vary of the shields after playing them a couple of times when they were 37 pts, which was Monolith-tier bad, but maybe they're the better choice with the new strat. I still feel like shields should be cheaper than warscythes, remember, every time you spend a CP on shieldguard to make them tougher you could have made your scytheguard deadlier instead. I'd put Anrakyr in any army featuring TPs or LG, for +1 A obviously, but also for TPs because he's the only one who can MWBD them, for LG because he can MWBD Novokh or Nephrekh LG or the Immortals in your Mephrit or Sautekh Battalion. His ability should just work for Immortals IMO, he's kind of a must-take in melee armies that don't focus on C'tan or Canoptek units.
nintura wrote: So then what happens if you overwatch while having a +1 to hit...
You don't get +1 to hit while shooting Overwatch. Read the core rules another time buddy, they're not that long this edition. I need to get my act together and thoroughly read all the codices and FAQ as well.
Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems
I have tested LG with warscythes and even had limited success with them. Zandrekh + Obyron solves their movement problem. Although thats a lot of points and unit is still very vulnerable to d2 shooting. In tournament i lost both games where LG unit was wiped before get their points back - by reapers and obliterators. Riptides is also a respective threat.
If I would write list now, it would look like this:
Spoiler:
Sautekh +5 CP
HQ: Nemezor Zandrekh [180]
HQ: Vanguard Obyron [140]
Elites: 10x Lychguard with Warscythes [300]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Sautekh, Nephrekh +1 CP HQ: Cryptek (70) - Staff of Light (10) [80] (Sautekh) Artefact: Veil of Darkness
Fast Attack: 6x Destroyers [300] (Nephrekh)
Fast Attack: 4x Canoptek Scarabs [52] (Nephrekh)
Fast Attack: 4x Canoptek Scarabs [52] (Nephrekh)
Total: 2000
CP: 9
Scythes under MWBD, reroll 1s to wound, +1 str stratagem, double TP (cryptek teleports Zandrekh \ Zandrekh advances, Obyron with LG teleports on him) just slice through everything.
Still, wraiths are more competitive choice - Zandrekh is horribly overcosted model.
LG with shields are just bad. They are expensive and can't fight vehicles. Don't use them.
I don't have the codex here - can you veil a unit from a different dynasty?
No. Thats why Cryptek is Sautekh, while destroyers and scarabs are Nephrekh. If I don't miss anything, all units in that batalion won't have access to dynasty codes (sad scarabs), while you still able to use deep strike stratagem on destroyers.
-Sentinel- wrote: No. Thats why Cryptek is Sautekh, while destroyers and scarabs are Nephrekh. If I don't miss anything, all units in that batalion won't have access to dynasty codes (sad scarabs), while you still able to use deep strike stratagem on destroyers.
-Sentinel- wrote: No. Thats why Cryptek is Sautekh, while destroyers and scarabs are Nephrekh. If I don't miss anything, all units in that batalion won't have access to dynasty codes (sad scarabs), while you still able to use deep strike stratagem on destroyers.
I have toyed with this idea a few times. It can reduce HQ tax, or make a HQ from one detachment work with another. You can take a battalion where the Tesla Immortals are Sautekh for Methodical Destruction, the Destroyers are Nephrek for Translocation Crypt, and some Wraith are Nihilak for the +1 Sv Strat. Nothing gets code benefits but you get the strategems you want for the units that use them. I never found it gave me anything much better than "normal" lists but it's something to consider.
This is one I have used:
Outrider:
Cryptek (Sautekh- to support a battalion)
6x Destroyers (Nephrek- Trans Crypt)
3x Tesla Blades (Sautekh- can join in with Methodical Destruction)
3x Tesla Blades (Sautekh- as above)
None of those units lose anything from not having the Dynasty code.
p5freak wrote: Tesla, overwatch and MWBD misses on a 5. You don't even get two additional hits. Tesla says 3 hits instead of 1 on a hit roll of 6+. But you only hit on natural 6s on overwatch. The +1 from MWBD is ignored. You cant get 3 hits if you dont get the 1 hit. Tesla rule doesnt trigger because of that.
p5freak wrote: Yes, scarabs move in front of wraith. They take the smites, wraith move over them, and attack whatever there is.
I've yet to have a game where scarabs screened and survived past turn 1.
Screens aren't supposed to survive deep into the game, man. They're supposed to soak up the damage that would otherwise be going to your more valuable units. Any damage your Scarabs actually do is just gravy. There is this weird mentality in the 40k community that if a unit doesn't kill its own value in other units, that unit has failed. Not everything is meant to be an offensive powerhouse.
GEEEEZ.
I'm not dumb :p
You say scarabs screen off smites from wraiths. I say wraiths die to smite because scarabs die turn 1 and there's nothing to screen the wraiths anymore for turn 2,3... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.
Smiting comes before shooting. Your opponent smites the scarabs because they are the closest enemy unit or he does something else in his psychic phase.
vict0988 wrote: I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games.
Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems
Pre-codex I did okay with LG-Deceiver combo for a turn 2 charge, but you'll be toast against many armies, if your opponent has enough chaff then your LG are going to be sad. They're pretty good at cutting down Primarchs though and perhabs that's part of why I had success with my elite melee units, because many of my opponents at the time were using those or otherwise plain bad armies, I was also facing a lot of generals who weren't very good when I was testing LG.
TPs is all about target saturation for your opponent's shooting and staying behind your chaff (Warriors/Scarabs/Wraiths) and jumping out in front. TPs can't be targeted for MWBD except by Anrakyr and can't benefit from Technomancer except from Szeras. Keep in mind that you don't measure vertical distance on charge anymore, that's a good reason to take TPs over LG. For all melee units you need to be meticulous in how you pile in and consolidate, maximize shooting denial while minimizing the Overwatch you have to suffer.
The times when Necrons are strongest is when facing a bad opponent who fails to respect RP and that goes for LG and TPs as well, if your opponent gets first turn, shoots down your chaff/shooting units and then turn 2 deletes your LG/TP units one at a time, then they won't be great. But if your opponent lets you make 40 RP rolls for your elite infantry units over the course of the game, then you'll probably do great. Playing on tables with enough terrain and with the ITC rules is a huge deal, hiding 2 or 3 models out of sight through a conga-line could allow you to RP for the entire unit. Post-codex I've just been losing a lot, but the one with which I had the most success is probably my Anrakyr/Szeras list which features a single unit of Triarch Praetorians.
iGuy91 wrote: Lychguard love having a Cryptek around to buff them up, especially Scytheguard. That 5++ can be all the difference.
That, and the RP buffs speak for themselves.
I want Kutlakh to be able to solve their speed problem, but I realize it won't be that easy.
I feel your pain. I love the look of Sword/Board Lychguard, they are my favorite models in the Necron range, but they are hard to get around. Only basic options are Night Scythe, Veil of Darkness, Deceiver, Monolith, or Kutlakh, all of which are either a relic, or expensive.
Which leads me to think VoD, and the Night Scythe are the best bets. Night Scythes are largely risk free. But VoD is the only one that gives you a chance at a turn 1 charge.
p5freak wrote: Tesla, overwatch and MWBD misses on a 5. You don't even get two additional hits. Tesla says 3 hits instead of 1 on a hit roll of 6+. But you only hit on natural 6s on overwatch. The +1 from MWBD is ignored. You cant get 3 hits if you dont get the 1 hit. Tesla rule doesnt trigger because of that.
p5freak wrote: Yes, scarabs move in front of wraith. They take the smites, wraith move over them, and attack whatever there is.
I've yet to have a game where scarabs screened and survived past turn 1.
Screens aren't supposed to survive deep into the game, man. They're supposed to soak up the damage that would otherwise be going to your more valuable units. Any damage your Scarabs actually do is just gravy. There is this weird mentality in the 40k community that if a unit doesn't kill its own value in other units, that unit has failed. Not everything is meant to be an offensive powerhouse.
GEEEEZ.
I'm not dumb :p
You say scarabs screen off smites from wraiths. I say wraiths die to smite because scarabs die turn 1 and there's nothing to screen the wraiths anymore for turn 2,3... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.
Smiting comes before shooting. Your opponent smites the scarabs because they are the closest enemy unit or he does something else in his psychic phase.
Yes. TURN ONE. Do all your games end on turn 1?
As fast as Wraiths are (and assuming you're using the Novokh code, which you probably should be with Wraiths), there's no reason your Wraiths shouldn't be in charge range by turn 2. You could almost charge the length of a 6'x4' board by turn 2.
I dont know Tsons, can they do 54 mortal wound smites in one turn ?
I had a game where i lost most of 20-man warriors blob to smites and same magic turn 1. Since that i always have a unit of scarabs to intercept those turn 1.
Also bear in mind that 1 unit of wraits will lose invul save by a spell Tsons have. With 4+ they are east target.
One of our meta player tested max wraiths at team tournament. He went badly.
Also bear in mind that 1 unit of wraits will lose invul save by a spell Tsons have. With 4+ they are east target.
Death hex needs an 8 to manifest and it can only hit one unit of wraith. Instead of 3x6 wraith it would be better to run 6x3 wraiths. Which wouldnt work on tournaments because of the rule of 3.
nintura wrote: Here's a fun one that's blowing up my facebook feed.
If you fire Tesla in Overwatch but get a -1 to hit, what does rolling a 6 do?
I Might have been on the same thread lol. It will need to be FAQ'd but my thoughts are as follows.
Overwatch always hits on a 6+ regardless of any modifiers. I believe you would get 1 hit for overwatch, but not the benefit of the Tesla exploding 6's because the -1 would drop it ot 5.
Something like this would be the order of operations.
Roll your dice
Compare with Ballistic Skill Characteristic (6's)
If equal or greater, it’s a hit
If less than the Ballistic Skill Characteristic value, it’s a miss (1-5)
Gather up all dice that are misses and re-roll them – (Re-Roll Step if applicable)
Compare with Ballistic Skill Characteristic (6's)
Apply hits
Apply *Modifiers (Negative and Positive) – Modifier Step (6's become 5's)
If less than the Ballistic Skill Characteristic value, it’s a miss
Go on to Wounding Steps
On another note, this came up as well. Since Nihilak Stratgem is used at end of turn and not a phase, per pg 215 of BRB, you can play that stratagem more than once since its not part of a phase. So, say we we use it on lychguard twice, granting them 2 attacks and a 2++ invul save. Also could use on a 20 man squad of flayed ones with a Chronotek nearby. Use 2 times to give them a 2+/3++ with 100 attacks for a 20 man sq. Add Imotekh nearby for reroll 1's and MWBD and they are hitting on 2's.
p5freak wrote: Tesla, overwatch and MWBD misses on a 5. You don't even get two additional hits. Tesla says 3 hits instead of 1 on a hit roll of 6+. But you only hit on natural 6s on overwatch. The +1 from MWBD is ignored. You cant get 3 hits if you dont get the 1 hit. Tesla rule doesnt trigger because of that.
p5freak wrote: Yes, scarabs move in front of wraith. They take the smites, wraith move over them, and attack whatever there is.
I've yet to have a game where scarabs screened and survived past turn 1.
Screens aren't supposed to survive deep into the game, man. They're supposed to soak up the damage that would otherwise be going to your more valuable units. Any damage your Scarabs actually do is just gravy. There is this weird mentality in the 40k community that if a unit doesn't kill its own value in other units, that unit has failed. Not everything is meant to be an offensive powerhouse.
GEEEEZ.
I'm not dumb :p
You say scarabs screen off smites from wraiths. I say wraiths die to smite because scarabs die turn 1 and there's nothing to screen the wraiths anymore for turn 2,3... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.
Smiting comes before shooting. Your opponent smites the scarabs because they are the closest enemy unit or he does something else in his psychic phase.
Yes. TURN ONE. Do all your games end on turn 1?
As fast as Wraiths are (and assuming you're using the Novokh code, which you probably should be with Wraiths), there's no reason your Wraiths shouldn't be in charge range by turn 2. You could almost charge the length of a 6'x4' board by turn 2.
Yes.... But that means they will be in smite range, which hard counters them..?
I dont know Tsons, can they do 54 mortal wound smites in one turn ?
It doesn't need to be 54 MW in a turn. Like someone said, deathhex with all the bonuses to cast it pretty reliable. The fact is that wraiths are really hardcountered by armies like this.
On another note, this came up as well. Since Nihilak Stratgem is used at end of turn and not a phase, per pg 215 of BRB, you can play that stratagem more than once since its not part of a phase. So, say we we use it on lychguard twice, granting them 2 attacks and a 2++ invul save. Also could use on a 20 man squad of flayed ones with a Chronotek nearby. Use 2 times to give them a 2+/3++ with 100 attacks for a 20 man sq. Add Imotekh nearby for reroll 1's and MWBD and they are hitting on 2's.
And if i were your opponent i would ignore your flayed ones, because you play it at the end of your turn. If i dont attack them your 4 CP are wasted. Unless its about an objective marker which is critical for the win.
Yes.... But that means they will be in smite range, which hard counters them..?
Why would you not charge them as soon as the Wraiths got in range to do so? Dead psykers can't cast Smite.
1. You really overestimate their damage output(The psykers are usually daemon princes)
2. This means your opponent did not protect them with chaff/left them in range.
3. This also means you decided to charge a single unit of Wraiths down the board with nothing else to support them leaving them as the closest unit to every psyker in your opponent's army.
4. Multicharges are a thing, and Wraiths can charge over enemy models anyway.
Every unit is crap when you look at it in a vacuum. Are T-sons good against models with an invuln save? Yes. Do you have the tools in your arsenal to beat them despite this? Absolutely.
EnTyme wrote: 3. This also means you decided to charge a single unit of Wraiths down the board with nothing else to support them leaving them as the closest unit to every psyker in your opponent's army.
4. Multicharges are a thing, and Wraiths can charge over enemy models anyway.
Every unit is crap when you look at it in a vacuum. Are T-sons good against models with an invuln save? Yes. Do you have the tools in your arsenal to beat them despite this? Absolutely.
I never said it was a single unit of wraiths? I just said they will be the closest unit to the enemy past turn 1 unless they're not doing anything.
Multicharges don't matter if you can't fit your base.
Not every unit is crap in a vacuum. Just most of them. It's a thing I noticed every game where I fight against a psyker. Wraiths die to smites and I feel real bad.
... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.
I can't speak for LG or TPs, but I think the codex Flayed Ones are pretty legit, particularly Novie ones. 3 attacks base with rerolls to hits and wounds and the potential to swing twice, and potentially at S5 when needed? Pretty deadly. The points drop from the index, albeit with the loss of one attack, did them a lot of favors as well.
They also pack their own delivery system, and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent I've been using them pretty extensively thus far and loving them.
... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.
I can't speak for LG or TPs, but I think the codex Flayed Ones are pretty legit, particularly Novie ones. 3 attacks base with rerolls to hits and wounds and the potential to swing twice, and potentially at S5 when needed? Pretty deadly. The points drop from the index, albeit with the loss of one attack, did them a lot of favors as well.
They also pack their own delivery system, and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent I've been using them pretty extensively thus far and loving them.
Their output is certainly good. Delivering them is the difficult part. With the recent FAQ, you're waiting until turn 2 and even then, it's going to be a 9" charge, if you're using their built in DS. If you fail that charge, I doubt T4 4+ will survive until next turn. I've had 20 T4 4+/5++ warriors blown off the board in a single turn in 1k games; I imagine 20 Flayed Ones in RF range would be much easier.
Anyway, with being a bigger point sink than warriors, I tend to avoid these guys.
Flayed Ones damage output is not great comparing to genestealers and similar stuff. The durability is really bad for their points too. AND delivering them is a problem. They suck real bad. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: also "and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent" makes me laugh uncontrollably. It's the joke rule of 8th ed
rvd1ofakind wrote: Flayed Ones damage output is not great comparing to genestealers and similar stuff. The durability is really bad for their points too. AND delivering them is a problem. They suck real bad. :(
They have DS. How is that a problem?
Unbuffed FOs kill .56 MEQ per base, fully buffed disruption fields and blood rites it jumps to 1.33. I don't know the GS numbers off the top of my head but I do know thats far from bad. It's upper tier.
Also with DF and BR they can very reasonably threaten any unit in the game. Their durability is only bad if you don't get any mileage out of RP. With a chrontek near by they are getting a 4+/5++ and RP 4+, which is completely superior to Genies, Zerkers, or other similarly costed CC units. Considering they skip two rounds of shooting, typically, and two rounds of your own shooting bringing your opponents anti infantry down, you are doing something wrong if you lose them all before you get a chance to roll RP. I've played dozens of games with a 20 brick and I think they were wiped maybe twice.
They are far from bad, and certainly don't suck, and I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you've never actually used them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also "and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent" makes me laugh uncontrollably. It's the joke rule of 8th ed
It's commonly an extra wound thrown around. Not sure what's so amusing about that.
... because the wraiths are the only real melee unit we have.
I can't speak for LG or TPs, but I think the codex Flayed Ones are pretty legit, particularly Novie ones. 3 attacks base with rerolls to hits and wounds and the potential to swing twice, and potentially at S5 when needed? Pretty deadly. The points drop from the index, albeit with the loss of one attack, did them a lot of favors as well.
They also pack their own delivery system, and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent I've been using them pretty extensively thus far and loving them.
Their output is certainly good. Delivering them is the difficult part. With the recent FAQ, you're waiting until turn 2 and even then, it's going to be a 9" charge, if you're using their built in DS. If you fail that charge, I doubt T4 4+ will survive until next turn. I've had 20 T4 4+/5++ warriors blown off the board in a single turn in 1k games; I imagine 20 Flayed Ones in RF range would be much easier.
Anyway, with being a bigger point sink than warriors, I tend to avoid these guys.
There late delivery is something that you should capitalize on. That gives you two turns to bring down your opponents firepower so they don't just drop in and die. I pair mine with 20 veiled Warriors who do a very adequate job of cutting away bubble wrap and limiting the firepower that can be brought against the FOs.
I have not seen Flayed Ones in a single tournament list, their mathammer is really poor compared to similar units. Why should I bother? I don't need to try servitors to know they suck. Same with Flayed ones. And deepstrike as a CC delivery mechanism is terrible without 3D6 charge
I have not seen Flayed Ones in a single tournament list
Relevance?
their mathammer is really poor compared to similar units.
I don't believe this is the case, but you are more then welcome to present your case with supporting facts if you wish. Specifically, though, compare them to Wraiths, whom they are actually competing with for inclusion.
DS works fine without 3D6 charge. You don't HAVE to make the charge the turn they drop. Do Wraiths get into CC without being shot at first? Of course not. Does that make Wraiths useless? Of course not.
"
;
"I have not seen Flayed Ones in a single tournament list
Relevance? "
I might as well stop reading here. But sure - if something is not seeing play in tournaments (you know, where people are going with the goal "TO WIN") - it probably sucks. Its the best players, the ones who play the most, mathammer the most. They are not stupid. If they don't take them EVER, that's probably the smart thing to do.
You can check my spreadsheet in my signature. To see what I've seen mathammer wise. For comparison: they are slower, 2x less durable genestealers, that also do "OK" damage only to horde units (however genestealers beat them 0.087 to 0.111 still even against the best target for Flayed ones...)
I don't need to compare Flayed ones to Wraiths. That's like gunlines taking their terrible melee units just because they're the only ones they have. If you play to your weaknesses - you will have a weaker army. You have to play to your strength. Obviously, wraiths do have their uses as fast CC stuff.
Finally wraiths are actually durable for their points. Flayed ones drop like flies against anti-horde weapons once they fail that 9'' charge.
On another note, this came up as well. Since Nihilak Stratgem is used at end of turn and not a phase, per pg 215 of BRB, you can play that stratagem more than once since its not part of a phase. So, say we we use it on lychguard twice, granting them 2 attacks and a 2++ invul save. Also could use on a 20 man squad of flayed ones with a Chronotek nearby. Use 2 times to give them a 2+/3++ with 100 attacks for a 20 man sq. Add Imotekh nearby for reroll 1's and MWBD and they are hitting on 2's.
And if i were your opponent i would ignore your flayed ones, because you play it at the end of your turn. If i dont attack them your 4 CP are wasted. Unless its about an objective marker which is critical for the win.
It last until the start of your next turn,so you would lock in, and surround, forcing the fight in his turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: Flayed Ones damage output is not great comparing to genestealers and similar stuff. The durability is really bad for their points too. AND delivering them is a problem. They suck real bad. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: also "and the -1 LD, while not ground braking, does make them just a little more potent" makes me laugh uncontrollably. It's the joke rule of 8th ed
Best bet would be demension corridor to disembark just outside 1 inch and charge, but now you got to take a monolith.
I might as well stop reading here. But sure - if something is not seeing play in tournaments (you know, where people are going with the goal "TO WIN") - it probably sucks. Its the best players, the ones who play the most, mathammer the most. They are not stupid. If they don't take them EVER, that's probably the smart thing to do.
You are more then free to let others do your thinking for you. The fact that the few dozen Necron lists at tournaments since the Dex dropped didn't bring one particular unit is pretty irrelevant to me.
You can check my spreadsheet in my signature. To see what I've seen mathammer wise. For comparison: they are slower, 2x less durable genestealers, that also do "OK" damage only to horde units (however genestealers beat them 0.087 to 0.111 still even against the best target for Flayed ones...)
They are only 2x less durable then genies if they never get RP. Silly assumptions bring even more ludicrous conclusions. Novohk FOs with DF and BR have very good damage output against anything in the game.
I don't need to compare Flayed ones to Wraiths. That's like gunlines taking their terrible melee units just because they're the only ones they have. If you play to your weaknesses - you will have a weaker army. You have to play to your strength. Obviously, wraiths do have their uses as fast CC stuff.
You are begging the question quite a bit here. "they are terrible because I say they are terrible which proves they are terrible." Riveting analysis.
Finally wraiths are actually durable for their points. Flayed ones drop like flies against anti-horde weapons once they fail that 9'' charge.
You get 3.23 FO wounds per 3 Wraith wounds. T5 4+/3++ is a little better then T4 4+/5++ RP 4+, albeit more susceptible to multi damage shots. I'd give a slight edge to Wraiths, but the disparity between the two isn't even in the same ballpark as you are implying.
Also, FO's 9 S4 rr wound attacks measures up very well against the Wraiths 3 S6 ap -2 D2 attacks against pretty much all targets.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I have not seen Flayed Ones in a single tournament list, their mathammer is really poor compared to similar units. Why should I bother? I don't need to try servitors to know they suck. Same with Flayed ones. And deepstrike as a CC delivery mechanism is terrible without 3D6 charge
Yeah, this is the issue, need to dimension corridor them. GS have Advance and charge, and often a Catalyst 5+++ so they are going to get in. They get 4 attacks over 10 man and don't need any other units to buff them to get those. Also, they have rending claws and acid maws for anti tank, or Sycthing Talons Reroll 1's for weaker GEQ. ITs really the speed. If flayed ones had a faster speed, an advance and charge component or a 3d6 charge, then they would be much better. Only feasible way I see to get them close is the Monolith Demension Corridor stratagem which is unfortunate.
3.23 FOs versus 1 Wraith do about twice as many wounds against GEQ and MEQ and 30 to 40% more wounds against multi wound high toughness targets.
Again, while I can see the difficulty people have maneuvering correctly, pure mathhammer shows they clearly punch plenty hard when they get stuck in.
20 FOs can also cover 60" of board space allowing you to threaten basically an entire half of the board. Combined with adequate support from the rest of your army it's really not nearly as difficult as some are implying to use them effectively.
Flayed Ones, three of, get 9 attacks, for 6 hits, 5.33 wounds against GEQs/4.5 against MEQs, which is dropped to 3.55 unsaved against GEQs/1.5 unsaved against MEQs.
Wariths, one of, gets 3 attacks, for 2 hits, 1.67 wounds against GEQs/1.33 against MEQs, which is dropped to 1.67 wounds against GEQs/1.11 against MEQs.
Significantly better against GEQs, but barely better versus MEQs.
And what about the strike-back?
Flayed Ones have a spindly T4, 4+ whereas Wraiths have a T5, 3++.
Plus, Teslamortals are going to serve you better versus GEQs, usually.
So, like I said, almost twice as good. Tack on DFs and Novohk and that number jumps to 2.55 for the FOs, 1.19 for the Wraiths (who of course don't benefit from DF in that scenario)
-Sentinel- wrote: No. Thats why Cryptek is Sautekh, while destroyers and scarabs are Nephrekh. If I don't miss anything, all units in that batalion won't have access to dynasty codes (sad scarabs), while you still able to use deep strike stratagem on destroyers.
Oh you can do that? Didn't know
I really don’t think you can do that have each unit a different dynasty within the same detachment
I will face a 2700 pts DeathGuard/Nugle Daemons army this weekend. He brings A LOT of bodies (poxwalker/cultists/marines)
What do you think about this list?
Im thinking about ditching the blades and get another warrior screen within the nephrek outrider instead. but i guess both choices are quite comparable.
Transcendent C'tan [12 PL, 225pts]: Fractured Personality: Cosmic Tyrant, Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 175pts] . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
++ Total: [149 PL, 2710pts] ++
Its supposed to be a friendly, otherwise we wouldnt play that many points. My opponent will field a great unclean one, which i have still no idea how to defeat. Any hints?
vict0988 wrote: I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games.
Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems
Pre-codex I did okay with LG-Deceiver combo for a turn 2 charge, but you'll be toast against many armies, if your opponent has enough chaff then your LG are going to be sad. They're pretty good at cutting down Primarchs though and perhabs that's part of why I had success with my elite melee units, because many of my opponents at the time were using those or otherwise plain bad armies, I was also facing a lot of generals who weren't very good when I was testing LG.
TPs is all about target saturation for your opponent's shooting and staying behind your chaff (Warriors/Scarabs/Wraiths) and jumping out in front. TPs can't be targeted for MWBD except by Anrakyr and can't benefit from Technomancer except from Szeras. Keep in mind that you don't measure vertical distance on charge anymore, that's a good reason to take TPs over LG. For all melee units you need to be meticulous in how you pile in and consolidate, maximize shooting denial while minimizing the Overwatch you have to suffer.
The times when Necrons are strongest is when facing a bad opponent who fails to respect RP and that goes for LG and TPs as well, if your opponent gets first turn, shoots down your chaff/shooting units and then turn 2 deletes your LG/TP units one at a time, then they won't be great. But if your opponent lets you make 40 RP rolls for your elite infantry units over the course of the game, then you'll probably do great. Playing on tables with enough terrain and with the ITC rules is a huge deal, hiding 2 or 3 models out of sight through a conga-line could allow you to RP for the entire unit. Post-codex I've just been losing a lot,
but the one with which I had the most success is probably my Anrakyr/Szeras list which features a single unit of Triarch Praetorians.
I would love to see that list and how you managed to keep the HQs up with the. TPs with their extra movement
So, like I said, almost twice as good. Tack on DFs and Novohk and that number jumps to 2.55 for the FOs, 1.19 for the Wraiths (who of course don't benefit from DF in that scenario)
Two Strategems. Disruption Fields, (+1 Strength to any infantry for 1 CP) and Blood Rites (Novokh specific strat that allows you to attak a second time in CC for 3 CP).
Mathhammer is not everything. FOs need support to work. And they are elite, we don't have many good elite choices. They need someone to buff them, a warlord who let's them reroll failed charges. They only move 5" and they can't ignore models and terrain when moving. And they can't charge when they fall back.
Yes, I will let others do the thinking for me in some cases. I can only play about a game a week. They can and DO play 10+ a week against other players that also do the same. I can't compete with that.
What I can do is create a spreadsheet that tells me that Flayed Ones suck.
Then I can look at top necron lists and see 0 Flayed Ones there. Those players would crush you turn 3 three. Because compared to them, you probably suck. And that's not your fault. It's just that they spend a ludicrous amount of time playing the game every week. Fact is - they probably know better than you.
Now let's put 2 and 2 together:
Bad on paper (mathammer)
Bad on the table (tournament results)
=
BAD
The fact that you compare them to wraiths but add a bunch of buffs to Flayed Ones and call it "fair". Why not add the amount of points the character takes up? Why not add the fact that they will get wiped turn 1 so they don't get RP. If 20 T4 5++ 5+++ genestealers always die in 1 turn - so will 20 flayed ones. Nothing will stay on the table for more than a turn or two if your opponent focuses it in 8th edition. If he wants that unit to die - it will die unless he brought a garbage list.
I'm not discussing this any further: I've said my part. It's as clear cut as you can get.
Running the re-roll charge Trait with Flayed Ones isn't necessary if you're just running a blob of 20 unless you're also running several other melee units. Let's say you roll a single 4 and then the other dice was 1-4 then you have a 33% chance of making the charge with a command re-roll, 27% with the Trait. You roll a 5 it's 50% vs 27%. You roll a 6 it's 67% vs 27%. The chance of rolling of making your charge is 27%, the chance of failing while rolling a single 4+ is quite good.
The Sautekh Trait gives 2-5 extra CP depending on how greedy you get between paying 2 CP just to have a unit of Destroyers be Nephrekh and then also give them DS and how many Relics you get. But if you're running a unit of Novokh Flayed Ones you really should be quite frugal with your CP pre-game. I'd wager you'll have more success with a Sautekh WL in a mostly ranged army rather than trying to run up your Mephrit/Novokh WL to give a 27% chance of making the charge in case you fail. That trait is really only good if you're going to be making at least 5 charges within range of the WL over the course of the game.
Flayed Ones are far too risky to be tournament viable in my estimation, you'd have to go to a lot of tournaments with your Flayed Ones list to make it to the top rankings at one, odds are you're going to be losing out on pure luck one game each tournament, which will bar you from a top placement in most tournaments. Then there's the fact that tournament players will be better at screening which means the result you see at your FLGs will likely be better than what you'll see once you go to a GT. Rvd1ofakind views everything in terms of tournament viability and I agree that we'll never see Flayed Ones in tournaments, both because their math isn't up-to-par with the current meta and DS won't be as effective against veteran players with experience against many different lists. That being said, if you spring a squad of 20 Flayed Ones on 5 people at the local shop, odds are you can probably get at least one of them to exasperately to ask you how many pts they are and whine when they find out they're "only" 17 pts.
As nice as re-roll wounds is against vehicles, a full squad of 20 FOs still needs to pay 3 CP just to destroy a Predator in one round of combat and if your opponent doesn't have any other units within 12" when you drop down then you can only attack that Predator and then maybe pile in to the next unit. The amount of circumstances where 20 Tesla Immortals will do worse than 20 FOs is not incredibly high in my estimation, although I have still only scratched the surface of Flayed Ones so maybe I'll come to love them.
-Sentinel- wrote: No. Thats why Cryptek is Sautekh, while destroyers and scarabs are Nephrekh. If I don't miss anything, all units in that batalion won't have access to dynasty codes (sad scarabs), while you still able to use deep strike stratagem on destroyers.
Oh you can do that? Didn't know
I really don’t think you can do that have each unit a different dynasty within the same detachment
vict0988 wrote: I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games.
Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems
Pre-codex I did okay with LG-Deceiver combo for a turn 2 charge, but you'll be toast against many armies, if your opponent has enough chaff then your LG are going to be sad. They're pretty good at cutting down Primarchs though and perhabs that's part of why I had success with my elite melee units, because many of my opponents at the time were using those or otherwise plain bad armies, I was also facing a lot of generals who weren't very good when I was testing LG.
TPs is all about target saturation for your opponent's shooting and staying behind your chaff (Warriors/Scarabs/Wraiths) and jumping out in front. TPs can't be targeted for MWBD except by Anrakyr and can't benefit from Technomancer except from Szeras. Keep in mind that you don't measure vertical distance on charge anymore, that's a good reason to take TPs over LG. For all melee units you need to be meticulous in how you pile in and consolidate, maximize shooting denial while minimizing the Overwatch you have to suffer.
The times when Necrons are strongest is when facing a bad opponent who fails to respect RP and that goes for LG and TPs as well, if your opponent gets first turn, shoots down your chaff/shooting units and then turn 2 deletes your LG/TP units one at a time, then they won't be great. But if your opponent lets you make 40 RP rolls for your elite infantry units over the course of the game, then you'll probably do great. Playing on tables with enough terrain and with the ITC rules is a huge deal, hiding 2 or 3 models out of sight through a conga-line could allow you to RP for the entire unit. Post-codex I've just been losing a lot,
but the one with which I had the most success is probably my Anrakyr/Szeras list which features a single unit of Triarch Praetorians.
I would love to see that list and how you managed to keep the HQs up with the. TPs with their extra movement [/spoiler]
The HQs don't keep up, the Triarch Praetorians keep down. I just used them to counter-attack once my opponents once they reached my lines. Sometimes when you go forwards you won't be able to grab cover, in that case it makes more sense than ever to take Scarabs or Wraiths that don't need cover or support, so I just didn't play my TPs like I would Wraiths.
I will face a 2700 pts DeathGuard/Nugle Daemons army this weekend. He brings A LOT of bodies (poxwalker/cultists/marines)
What do you think about this list? Im thinking about ditching the blades and get another warrior screen within the nephrek outrider instead. but i guess both choices are quite comparable.
Transcendent C'tan [12 PL, 225pts]: Fractured Personality: Cosmic Tyrant, Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 175pts] . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes . . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
++ Total: [149 PL, 2710pts] ++
Its supposed to be a friendly, otherwise we wouldnt play that many points. My opponent will field a great unclean one, which i have still no idea how to defeat. Any hints?
vict0988 wrote: I have 5 games with TPs, 2 with Shieldguard and 1 with Scytheguard pre-codex, 3, 0, and 4 games post-codex for TPs, Shieldguard and Scytheguard respectively, they can be very fun to play just don't expect them to win you any tournament games.
Have you examples of lists that have worked well, as I always find it hard to get LG into CC with a supporting HQ and especially TP as they move 10” I would be really interested in hearing how you over came these problems
Pre-codex I did okay with LG-Deceiver combo for a turn 2 charge, but you'll be toast against many armies, if your opponent has enough chaff then your LG are going to be sad. They're pretty good at cutting down Primarchs though and perhabs that's part of why I had success with my elite melee units, because many of my opponents at the time were using those or otherwise plain bad armies, I was also facing a lot of generals who weren't very good when I was testing LG.
TPs is all about target saturation for your opponent's shooting and staying behind your chaff (Warriors/Scarabs/Wraiths) and jumping out in front. TPs can't be targeted for MWBD except by Anrakyr and can't benefit from Technomancer except from Szeras. Keep in mind that you don't measure vertical distance on charge anymore, that's a good reason to take TPs over LG. For all melee units you need to be meticulous in how you pile in and consolidate, maximize shooting denial while minimizing the Overwatch you have to suffer.
The times when Necrons are strongest is when facing a bad opponent who fails to respect RP and that goes for LG and TPs as well, if your opponent gets first turn, shoots down your chaff/shooting units and then turn 2 deletes your LG/TP units one at a time, then they won't be great. But if your opponent lets you make 40 RP rolls for your elite infantry units over the course of the game, then you'll probably do great. Playing on tables with enough terrain and with the ITC rules is a huge deal, hiding 2 or 3 models out of sight through a conga-line could allow you to RP for the entire unit. Post-codex I've just been losing a lot,
but the one with which I had the most success is probably my Anrakyr/Szeras list which features a single unit of Triarch Praetorians.
I would love to see that list and how you managed to keep the HQs up with the. TPs with their extra movement
Sentinel: I like my tombstalker model and always play it as a distraction sentinel. arriving on turn 2 and sniping charackters.
In all of my games TP where underwhelimg. i sometimes use them to screen the Nightbringer, since they can keep up with him and 10 of them are hard to kill with t5, 2 wounds and moraleimmune. you have to pick your fights with them, only bringing their points vs MEQimho.
Has anyone tried Kutlakh the World Killer from the FW range. He has an interesting rule where you can charge and advance for all friendly infantry within 12" thats crazy. Perhaps this could be an alternative to get Flayed ones into CC. Really though I see 2 or maybe even 3 blobs of Praetoreans with hypherphase swords, with Anarkyr nearby to get +1 attack to at least 2 units, MWBD for extra range and hitting power, maybe even have 3 units depending on positioning. Add a Chrono Cryptek with 5++ invul and you got some nastyness.
What about Tolohk the Blinded, his D3 Living metal to friendly vehicles seems good as well. Park him next to a DDA, Monolith, TV, etc... But the icing on the cake, he gets two chances to seize initiative. We all know how important going first is.
Dynas wrote: Has anyone tried Kutlakh the World Killer from the FW range. He has an interesting rule where you can charge and advance for all friendly infantry within 12" thats crazy. Perhaps this could be an alternative to get Flayed ones into CC. Really though I see 2 or maybe even 3 blobs of Praetoreans with hypherphase swords, with Anarkyr nearby to get +1 attack to at least 2 units, MWBD for extra range and hitting power, maybe even have 3 units depending on positioning. Add a Chrono Cryptek with 5++ invul and you got some nastyness.
What about Tolohk the Blinded, his D3 Living metal to friendly vehicles seems good as well. Park him next to a DDA, Monolith, TV, etc... But the icing on the cake, he gets two chances to seize initiative. We all know how important going first is.
In regards to 'big K', I think that the issue is still footslogging. With Lychguard or FO, you're looking at an average move of...5+1 (for mwbd) + d6 = 9.5 inches, which isn't that impressive sadly.
I'm of the opinion at this point, Night Scythes are the safest and most reliable way to deliver one of those squads for a charge with the stratagem to beam them down, or otherwise keep them safe should the scythe pop.
As far as Toholk goes, a cloak cryptek can do that same d3 living metal trick. The seize trick is handy, true.
Dynas wrote: Has anyone tried Kutlakh the World Killer from the FW range. He has an interesting rule where you can charge and advance for all friendly infantry within 12" thats crazy. Perhaps this could be an alternative to get Flayed ones into CC. Really though I see 2 or maybe even 3 blobs of Praetoreans with hypherphase swords, with Anarkyr nearby to get +1 attack to at least 2 units, MWBD for extra range and hitting power, maybe even have 3 units depending on positioning. Add a Chrono Cryptek with 5++ invul and you got some nastyness.
What about Tolohk the Blinded, his D3 Living metal to friendly vehicles seems good as well. Park him next to a DDA, Monolith, TV, etc... But the icing on the cake, he gets two chances to seize initiative. We all know how important going first is.
In regards to 'big K', I think that the issue is still footslogging. With Lychguard or FO, you're looking at an average move of...5+1 (for mwbd) + d6 = 9.5 inches, which isn't that impressive sadly.
I'm of the opinion at this point, Night Scythes are the safest and most reliable way to deliver one of those squads for a charge with the stratagem to beam them down, or otherwise keep them safe should the scythe pop.
As far as Toholk goes, a cloak cryptek can do that same d3 living metal trick. The seize trick is handy, true.
That's unless you treat him as Nephrekh. That's basically an 11" move for Flayed Ones and Lychguard.
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rvd1ofakind wrote: Yes, I will let others do the thinking for me in some cases. I can only play about a game a week. They can and DO play 10+ a week against other players that also do the same. I can't compete with that.
What I can do is create a spreadsheet that tells me that Flayed Ones suck.
Then I can look at top necron lists and see 0 Flayed Ones there. Those players would crush you turn 3 three. Because compared to them, you probably suck. And that's not your fault. It's just that they spend a ludicrous amount of time playing the game every week. Fact is - they probably know better than you.
Now let's put 2 and 2 together:
Bad on paper (mathammer)
Bad on the table (tournament results)
=
BAD
The fact that you compare them to wraiths but add a bunch of buffs to Flayed Ones and call it "fair". Why not add the amount of points the character takes up? Why not add the fact that they will get wiped turn 1 so they don't get RP. If 20 T4 5++ 5+++ genestealers always die in 1 turn - so will 20 flayed ones. Nothing will stay on the table for more than a turn or two if your opponent focuses it in 8th edition. If he wants that unit to die - it will die unless he brought a garbage list.
I'm not discussing this any further: I've said my part. It's as clear cut as you can get.
Except Flayed Ones aren't bad mathematically. Please prove it by all means.
Dynas wrote: Has anyone tried Kutlakh the World Killer from the FW range. He has an interesting rule where you can charge and advance for all friendly infantry within 12" thats crazy. Perhaps this could be an alternative to get Flayed ones into CC. Really though I see 2 or maybe even 3 blobs of Praetoreans with hypherphase swords, with Anarkyr nearby to get +1 attack to at least 2 units, MWBD for extra range and hitting power, maybe even have 3 units depending on positioning. Add a Chrono Cryptek with 5++ invul and you got some nastyness.
What about Tolohk the Blinded, his D3 Living metal to friendly vehicles seems good as well. Park him next to a DDA, Monolith, TV, etc... But the icing on the cake, he gets two chances to seize initiative. We all know how important going first is.
In regards to 'big K', I think that the issue is still footslogging. With Lychguard or FO, you're looking at an average move of...5+1 (for mwbd) + d6 = 9.5 inches, which isn't that impressive sadly.
I'm of the opinion at this point, Night Scythes are the safest and most reliable way to deliver one of those squads for a charge with the stratagem to beam them down, or otherwise keep them safe should the scythe pop.
As far as Toholk goes, a cloak cryptek can do that same d3 living metal trick. The seize trick is handy, true.
You still risk it getting gunned down turn 1 before you can beam them out turn 2, dont you? You cant emergency beam them out midfield turn 1 per the new FAQ
That can't be right. The emergency beam has to over ride that as intended I'm sure, does it state in that Faq specifically the emergency invasion beam?
Yes, I will let others do the thinking for me in some cases. I can only play about a game a week. They can and DO play 10+ a week against other players that also do the same. I can't compete with that.
What I can do is create a spreadsheet that tells me that Flayed Ones suck.
Then I can look at top necron lists and see 0 Flayed Ones there. Those players would crush you turn 3 three. Because compared to them, you probably suck. And that's not your fault. It's just that they spend a ludicrous amount of time playing the game every week. Fact is - they probably know better than you.
That's not a fact, that's an opinion with minimal evidence to support it.
Bad on paper (mathammer)
But they aren't. They hit harder then Wraiths against basically all targets. They hit twice as hard as Wraiths against their prime target, infantry. Your perception of them is simply and completely false.
Bad on the table (tournament results)
No evidence isn't evidence.
The fact that you compare them to wraiths but add a bunch of buffs to Flayed Ones and call it "fair"
I didn't add anything to the FOs offenseive ability to make the comparison at all. Don't be obtuse. I did add the Cryptek to their defensive resilience, but this a mandatory take anyway. You are forced to take at least one HQ, and Wraiths simply don't benefit Chronoteks.
Why not add the fact that they will get wiped turn 1 so they don't get RP. If 20 T4 5++ 5+++ genestealers always die in 1 turn - so will 20 flayed ones. Nothing will stay on the table for more than a turn or two if your opponent focuses it in 8th edition. If he wants that unit to die - it will die unless he brought a garbage list.
They don't come in turn 1.
Sure, everything in the game can die if you focus it. If you play 20 FOs correctly they will survive more often then not for at least a round of shooting, but it's a dice game. Anything can happen.
I'm not discussing this any further: I've said my part. It's as clear cut as you can get.
Yeah, it's clear cut you have nothing to backup your argument except the null hypothesis and special pleading.
Counter charge units are nearby. You want them to be charged and are placed in such a way that your opponent has too many threats to deal with. If you charges warriors, Deciver 
