rvd1ofakind wrote: The problem with "run DDAs" is that I have to replace something to run them. My list is:
OL (veil, 3pts blade)
Cryptek (cloak)
10 tesla
9 tesla
18 warriors
3 scarabs
deceiver
5 destros
5 wraiths
Like, what do I even get rid off. 193 is a LOT of pts
And destroyers are still better points/performance wise even against T7 if they pop strat (Which I always do) :/
You have zero dedicated anti-tank in your list. Destroyers can do anti tank of course, but it's not what they are best at. It's hard to make a rounded list at 1500, but that's a pretty glaring weakness.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The deceiver is probably the most logical thing to drop.
You could drop the wraiths, but you might need them to engage those robots.
Or you could drop the warriors and run the immortals as MSU. Might make them susceptible to getting wiped though.
Apparently destroyers outgun the DDA if they pop the strat. I don't like relying on low chances though. Mathhammer is good on paper, but I found its unreliable in practice.
Destroyers are way more reliable. More dice = more reliable. DDA is D6 shots = all over the place.
HQ: Cryptek, SoL, Chrono [95] Warlord: Hyperlogical Strategist, Artefact,Veil of Darkness
HQ: Anarykr [167]
Troops: 19x Necron Warriors [228]
Troops: 10x Tesla Immortals [170]
Troops: 10x Tesla Immortals [170]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]
Nephrekh +1 CP [745]
HQ: Lord, Hypherphase Sword [76]
Fast Attack: 6x Destroyers [300]
Fast Attack: 6x Wraiths [330]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]
Total: 2000
CP: 9 ; 12 drops, (not counting any stratagems, but likely hold Destroyers in DS)
Idea looks ok, but there is room for improvement IMO:
1. Lord in nephrekh dont give noone anything. Destroyers is only infantry, they already reroll everything. Put him in sautekh detach in exchange of Anrakyr. Or make him Sautekh in Nephrekh detachment. If i understand it correctly, you would lose dynasty code which is not a big deal, but you still have access to stratagem to deep strike destroyers/
2. Put scarabs into nephrekh detachment. Its 3-6 Fast attack slots.
3. IMO Anrakyr is not worth it here. Find points for Imotekh or save points by using ordinary overlord.
I have been toying with close to that concept, and while thinking about your list i found new iteration of mine, which contains all units from codexi want:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh +5 CP HQ: Overlord (84) - Hyperphase Sword (3) [87] Warlord: Immortal Pride
HQ: Cryptek (70) - Staff of Light (10), Canoptek Cloak (5) [85] Artefact: Veil of Darkness
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 20x Necron Warriors [240]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]
Fast Attack: 6x Destroyers [300]
Fast Attack: 6x Canoptek Wraith [330]
Total: 2000
CP: 8
Yeah very similar. I really like that and can actually run most of that, minus one DDA. I only have 2, but I have 9 destroyers now (10 if I proxy my D lord in the unit as regular), another 3 on the way. What would you change and replace in your list if you didnt have a 3rd DDA?
rvd1ofakind wrote: The problem with "run DDAs" is that I have to replace something to run them. My list is:
OL (veil, 3pts blade)
Cryptek (cloak)
10 tesla
9 tesla
18 warriors
3 scarabs
deceiver
5 destros
5 wraiths
Like, what do I even get rid off. 193 is a LOT of pts
And destroyers are still better points/performance wise even against T7 if they pop strat (Which I always do) :/
You have zero dedicated anti-tank in your list. Destroyers can do anti tank of course, but it's not what they are best at. It's hard to make a rounded list at 1500, but that's a pretty glaring weakness.
Since i play ITC, my strat is to wipe anything bellow t7 and hide. My list only gives up 2 pts so my opponent is forced to move out. And most t7+ aren't very mobile
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The deceiver is probably the most logical thing to drop.
You could drop the wraiths, but you might need them to engage those robots.
Or you could drop the warriors and run the immortals as MSU. Might make them susceptible to getting wiped though.
Apparently destroyers outgun the DDA if they pop the strat. I don't like relying on low chances though. Mathhammer is good on paper, but I found its unreliable in practice.
Destroyers are way more reliable. More dice = more reliable. DDA is D6 shots = all over the place.
You'd think so, but sometimes those 5s just aren't popping up.
That said, sticking a heavy destroyer in a squad might help out with that.
rvd1ofakind wrote: The problem with "run DDAs" is that I have to replace something to run them. My list is:
OL (veil, 3pts blade)
Cryptek (cloak)
10 tesla
9 tesla
18 warriors
3 scarabs
deceiver
5 destros
5 wraiths
Like, what do I even get rid off. 193 is a LOT of pts
And destroyers are still better points/performance wise even against T7 if they pop strat (Which I always do) :/
I am in the same boat. It just seems like Necrons cost too much.... j/k dont want to start that thread. I want to take all my cool stuff, not just some.
I would drop deceiver, maybe lower troop counts. Wraiths as a 3rd option.
Yeah very similar. I really like that and can actually run most of that, minus one DDA. I only have 2, but I have 9 destroyers now (10 if I proxy my D lord in the unit as regular), another 3 on the way. What would you change and replace in your list if you didnt have a 3rd DDA?
I would try this if you have CCB:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh +5 CP HQ: Catacomb Command Barge (138) - Heavy Gauss Cannon (20), Staff of Light (10) [168] Artefact: Lightning Field
HQ: Cryptek (70) - Staff of Light (10), Canoptek Cloak (5) [85] Warlord: Immortal Pride, Artefact: Veil of Darkness
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 20x Necron Warriors [240]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Fast Attack: 5x Destroyers [250]
Fast Attack: 5x Destroyers [250]
Fast Attack: 5x Canoptek Wraith [275]
Total: 1994
CP: 8
or this if you dont:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh +5 CP HQ: Overlord (84) - Hyperphase Sword (3) [87] Warlord: Immortal Pride
HQ: Cryptek (70) - Staff of Light (10) [80] Artefact: Veil of Darkness
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 18x Necron Warriors [216]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Nephrekh +1 CP HQ: Lord (73) - Hyperphase Sword (3) [76]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]
Fast Attack: 5x Destroyers [250]
Fast Attack: 5x Destroyers [250]
Fast Attack: 5x Canoptek Wraith [275]
Total: 1999
CP: 9
Also replacing DDA and some warriors with Deceiver might work, but personally i dont like him.
Yeah very similar. I really like that and can actually run most of that, minus one DDA. I only have 2, but I have 9 destroyers now (10 if I proxy my D lord in the unit as regular), another 3 on the way. What would you change and replace in your list if you didnt have a 3rd DDA?
I would try this if you have CCB:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh +5 CP HQ: Catacomb Command Barge (138) - Heavy Gauss Cannon (20), Staff of Light (10) [168] Artefact: Lightning Field
HQ: Cryptek (70) - Staff of Light (10), Canoptek Cloak (5) [85] Warlord: Immortal Pride, Artefact: Veil of Darkness
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 20x Necron Warriors [240]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Fast Attack: 5x Destroyers [250]
Fast Attack: 5x Destroyers [250]
Fast Attack: 5x Canoptek Wraith [275]
Total: 1994
CP: 8
or this if you dont:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh +5 CP HQ: Overlord (84) - Hyperphase Sword (3) [87] Warlord: Immortal Pride
HQ: Cryptek (70) - Staff of Light (10) [80] Artefact: Veil of Darkness
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 10x Immortals with Tesla Carbine [170]
Troops: 18x Necron Warriors [216]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Nephrekh +1 CP HQ: Lord (73) - Hyperphase Sword (3) [76]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]
Fast Attack: 5x Destroyers [250]
Fast Attack: 5x Destroyers [250]
Fast Attack: 5x Canoptek Wraith [275]
Total: 1999
CP: 9
Also replacing DDA and some warriors with Deceiver might work, but personally i dont like him.
I have a deceiver too. I can try that. I dont have the CCB so I think the 2nd list will be the way to go.
rvd1ofakind wrote: The problem with "run DDAs" is that I have to replace something to run them. My list is:
OL (veil, 3pts blade)
Cryptek (cloak)
10 tesla
9 tesla
18 warriors
3 scarabs
deceiver
5 destros
5 wraiths
Like, what do I even get rid off. 193 is a LOT of pts
And destroyers are still better points/performance wise even against T7 if they pop strat (Which I always do) :/
Well, the reason I run them is not just for the offensive capability, it's the survivability as well. Being able to hang back the first two critical turns and still pump out damage is huge. Generally the stuff that can reach them has a hard time getting through QS.
I am a new 40k player in the UK and trying to build an army with Necrons while discovering the game.
The friend who introduced me does not know the Necrons at all so his advice is quite limited in this matter.
Before someone starts telling me off, I have been reading this thread for a few days now and my head is spinning...
I understand there is no perfect army, that there are armies made for competition (list with 17 destroyers and 5 DDA?!) but it is very difficult to know where to start.
I would appreciate if someone would leave some comments on few points :-)
Currently I have:
Spoiler:
1x Overload
24x Warriors
6x Scarabs
5x Deathmarks
3x Wraiths
1x Doomsday Ark or Ghost Ark (magnetized)
1x Triarch Stalker
3x Destroyers
I have a lot of small units but not enough to really do an impact.
Here are the questions
1.HQs I wanted to get another HQ but so many contradictive opinions out there. On the first message on this post the HQ are rated but when looking at everyone's list in the 100 pages of this thread it looks like nobody really uses anyone but Cryptek, Overlord and eventually Imotek (even though even this last one has mixed reviews).
I thought Nemesor was interesting with his anti-buff but it is rarely mentioned.
I also thought people would use Szeras instead of a Cryptek. I am sure I am missing something.
2.Deathmark I was very disappointed with their performances but I realize now after reading the whole thread that using them as snipers to kill Characters is not really a viable option.
Duly noted.
3.Tomb blades? Immortals? Tomb blades? Destroyers? Wraiths?
At the beginning of the thread some people seemed very keen on the Tomb Blades but now at the end it is all about the destroyers.
I understand they are used for a different purpose but I don't think Tomb Blades a lot at all.
4.Recommendation? This is where I would love some help.
I understand there is no perfect answer, it depends on what I want to play but I don't want to put myself in a corner and go completely wrong.
I was expecting to buy:
Spoiler:
C'tan Nightbringer: I know deceiver might be more fun in terms of strategy but the model is really appealing; I will get the deceiver later down the road)
10x Immortals: more infantry. So I could have a blob of 20 warriors and 10 immortals
3x wraith or 3x destroyer or 6x Tomb blades: this is the tricky one. In the previous games that I've played my 3 wraiths were not enough against units of intercessors, Wulfens. It feels like I would need 6 of either destroyers or 6 wraiths
I know it is a long message... but hopefully, you still have some tolerance about for n00bs ;-)
So... any bits of advice? comments?
P.S: if you know of a good spot to meet and play some games in London, please do tell
I am a new 40k player in the UK and trying to build an army with Necrons while discovering the game.
The friend who introduced me does not know the Necrons at all so his advice is quite limited in this matter.
Before someone starts telling me off, I have been reading this thread for a few days now and my head is spinning...
I understand there is no perfect army, that there are armies made for competition (list with 17 destroyers and 5 DDA?!) but it is very difficult to know where to start.
I would appreciate if someone would leave some comments on few points :-)
Currently I have:
Spoiler:
1x Overload
24x Warriors
6x Scarabs
5x Deathmarks
3x Wraiths
1x Doomsday Ark or Ghost Ark (magnetized)
1x Triarch Stalker
3x Destroyers
I have a lot of small units but not enough to really do an impact.
Here are the questions
1.HQs I wanted to get another HQ but so many contradictive opinions out there. On the first message on this post the HQ are rated but when looking at everyone's list in the 100 pages of this thread it looks like nobody really uses anyone but Cryptek, Overlord and eventually Imotek (even though even this last one has mixed reviews).
I thought Nemesor was interesting with his anti-buff but it is rarely mentioned.
I also thought people would use Szeras instead of a Cryptek. I am sure I am missing something.
2.Deathmark I was very disappointed with their performances but I realize now after reading the whole thread that using them as snipers to kill Characters is not really a viable option.
Duly noted.
3.Tomb blades? Immortals? Tomb blades? Destroyers? Wraiths?
At the beginning of the thread some people seemed very keen on the Tomb Blades but now at the end it is all about the destroyers.
I understand they are used for a different purpose but I don't think Tomb Blades a lot at all.
4.Recommendation? This is where I would love some help.
I understand there is no perfect answer, it depends on what I want to play but I don't want to put myself in a corner and go completely wrong.
I was expecting to buy:
Spoiler:
C'tan Nightbringer: I know deceiver might be more fun in terms of strategy but the model is really appealing; I will get the deceiver later down the road)
10x Immortals: more infantry. So I could have a blob of 20 warriors and 10 immortals
3x wraith or 3x destroyer or 6x Tomb blades: this is the tricky one. In the previous games that I've played my 3 wraiths were not enough against units of intercessors, Wulfens. It feels like I would need 6 of either destroyers or 6 wraiths
I know it is a long message... but hopefully, you still have some tolerance about for n00bs ;-)
So... any bits of advice? comments?
P.S: if you know of a good spot to meet and play some games in London, please do tell
Welcome to the hobby!/Army!
1. Immotek is really expensive, and I'd say Nemesor is very niche, though i love the fluff for both. I'd suggest a cryptek, a lord, or an overlord, you get very similar ability, for much less points tax.
2.Deathmarks - Really only decent with Mephrit -1 armor pen, Skip them.
3. Yes. All of the units you mentioned are some of the best in the dex. You cannot go wrong with them really. Wraiths are very good at CC, Tomb Blades are fast with decent firepower, and destroyers hit like a ton of bricks with the extermination protocols strategem.
4. For starters, I'd get the Immortals, Wraiths, Destroyers, and Tomb Blades over time. I run all of them, in 99% of my lists, they will not steer you wrong if played correctly. Otherwise, the Doomsday Ark is our #1 vehicle, and provides good ranged anti-tank.
deathmarks are our only free ranged deepstriker though. Well, unless you want to field the monolith. Free is the operative word in that statement. Stratagems are not free.
How reliable are deepstriking flayed ones? A 9" charge feels risky. Possible, but risky.
HQ: Cryptek, SoL, Chrono [95] Warlord: Hyperlogical Strategist, Artefact,Veil of Darkness
HQ: Anarykr [167]
Troops: 19x Necron Warriors [228]
Troops: 10x Tesla Immortals [170]
Troops: 10x Tesla Immortals [170]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]
Nephrekh +1 CP [745]
HQ: Lord, Hypherphase Sword [76]
Fast Attack: 6x Destroyers [300]
Fast Attack: 6x Wraiths [330]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]
Total: 2000
CP: 9 ; 12 drops, (not counting any stratagems, but likely hold Destroyers in DS)
Overall pretty decent, but
Why is there a units of 3 Scarabs randomly in the Sautekh Battalion?
Because I had exactly 39 points left over. What would you change?
I'm not saying spending the points on Scarabs is bad. I'm saying they really should be in Nephrekh where they can benefit from the code (as Sautekh does nothing for them). Two units of 3, or one of 6. Either should be fine, but the two of 3 gives you more flexibility (to go after objectives or screen).
On a side note. I'm really struggling to get a Tvault into a list
It's such a huge point sink that removes valuable things from an army list (like 1.5 units of destroyers). I put hh deciever in to move it up the board on turn 1.here is my stab in the dark..
Spoiler:
### Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) ###
#### No Force Org Slot ####
* **[Reference] Powers of the C'tan (All)**
* **[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)**
* **Dynasty Choice**
Dynasty: Sautekh
* **Use Beta Rules**
#### HQ ####
* **Cryptek**
Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
* **Overlord**
Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Staff of Light
* **Warlord**
Warlord Trait (Sautekh): Hyperlogical Strategist
#### Troops ####
* **Immortals**
Gauss Blaster, 5x Immortal
* **Immortals**
5x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
* **Immortals**
Gauss Blaster, 5x Immortal
#### Elites ####
* **C'tan Shard of the Deceiver**
Sn33R wrote: On a side note. I'm really struggling to get a Tvault into a list
It's such a huge point sink that removes valuable things from an army list (like 1.5 units of destroyers). I put hh deciever in to move it up the board on turn 1.here is my stab in the dark..
Spoiler:
### Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) ###
#### No Force Org Slot ####
* **[Reference] Powers of the C'tan (All)**
* **[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)**
* **Dynasty Choice**
Dynasty: Sautekh
* **Use Beta Rules**
#### HQ ####
* **Cryptek**
Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
* **Overlord**
Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Staff of Light
* **Warlord**
Warlord Trait (Sautekh): Hyperlogical Strategist
#### Troops ####
* **Immortals**
Gauss Blaster, 5x Immortal
* **Immortals**
5x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
* **Immortals**
Gauss Blaster, 5x Immortal
#### Elites ####
* **C'tan Shard of the Deceiver**
You can't have wraith, destroyer and the vault. Drop one of first two, and use the points on the other unit. It's better to have one large unit than two small ones.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Rofl whipcoils. One of the worst upgrades in the game
I still think the Rez Orb holds that title. 35pts to reroll 1's on RP for a single unit once per game.
Ressurection Orb let's you roll RP again for a unit. So it's 5+, 'rerolling'. Or 4+ near a Cryptek.
In fact, you can use the strategem to get the rerolling 1's for both the 'regular' RP and the one from the Orb.
The best RP you can get from a unit is near a Cryptek, with the Orb of Eternity and the Enhanced Reanimation Protocols stratagem. This results in a 4+, rerolling 1's, followed by a 3+, rerolling 1's.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Rofl whipcoils. One of the worst upgrades in the game
I still think the Rez Orb holds that title. 35pts to reroll 1's on RP for a single unit once per game.
Ressurection Orb let's you roll RP again for a unit. So it's 5+, 'rerolling'. Or 4+ near a Cryptek.
In fact, you can use the strategem to get the rerolling 1's for both the 'regular' RP and the one from the Orb.
The best RP you can get from a unit is near a Cryptek, with the Orb of Eternity and the Enhanced Reanimation Protocols stratagem. This results in a 4+, rerolling 1's, followed by a 3+, rerolling 1's.
Guess I confused the orb with the stratagem. In either case, 35 pts is too expensive for a single reroll for a single unit.
Considering how many other things you need to be able to reliably bring back two of either of those units, yes. It's too expensive. RP is too unreliable. For 35 pts, I could have two extra Immortals or an extra Tomb Blade, or nearly three Scarabs.
MarkM wrote: And if it brings back 2 Destroyers or 2 Wraiths? Still too expensive?
It's not great, but its not complete gak either.
Its a 55% chance (probability of rolling a 5+ with a reroll) of bringing back a destroyer, and it can only bring back wraiths if you burn 2CP. If you have a cryptek it becomes a 75% chance. Those aren't good odds for a single use 35pt item. I would have preferred it if it were +1 to RP. The relic would have granted rerolls for a single turn, whilst still having the bonus to RP at all times.
EnTyme wrote: Considering how many other things you need to be able to reliably bring back two of either of those units, yes. It's too expensive. RP is too unreliable. For 35 pts, I could have two extra Immortals or an extra Tomb Blade, or nearly three Scarabs.
Agree completely.
I build lists assuming I will fail every RP roll (so anybody I do get back is a nice surprise).
Instead of putting points into unit defense I prefer to devote those points to putting more models on the table.
Usually pans out.
EnTyme wrote: Considering how many other things you need to be able to reliably bring back two of either of those units, yes. It's too expensive. RP is too unreliable. For 35 pts, I could have two extra Immortals or an extra Tomb Blade, or nearly three Scarabs.
This. 35 pts is just bonkers. People are usually defending it with ideal situation, but that rarely happens... With RP its much more important to have more bodies to keep unit "alive" than hope for 5+ roll at not wiped unit. Its 35 doing nothing, just waiting for one unreliable roll.
1) If using it on a unit with 10 or less models you basically waste it as you wont roll enough RPs to get the points back e.g. 10 Immortals, 6 Destroyers. or you use it on a block of Warriors due to them making the most out of a 2nd RP. But, at that stage, you might as well just bring a Ghost Ark so you constantly have 2 RP phases.
2) it can only be used on Infantry Models. Why give us an add-on that is already expensive to begin with and restrict it? We have a stratagem that lets us bring Canoptek stuff back with RP. If I could use the Res Orb on a RP'd unit of Wraiths I would think the 35pt would be worth it. Even if you only got an extra model back.35 pts would becomes 55pts. I am also annoyed it doesn't affect Tomb Blades. Fair enough they are cheap as chips and shouldn't die. But when you are down to your last TB and need as many RPs as possible than 2 phases of RP becomes golden.
for me to use Res Orb it would either need its usage changed from it being used once only to it being used once per infantry unit e.g. You can buff all you infantry unit once with the Res Orb rather than the res orb be one-use only. If I was able to give all my infantry units 2RPs for 1 turn that would be clutch. Hell, it could even make our RP stronger. But, GW doesn't want to do that.
Troops: 18x Warriors
10x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Elite: Deceiver
Fast attack: 6x Destroyers
Heavy support: DDA Nihalakh Super-heavy aux detachment
Vault
Thoughts behind the list A Silver Tide that get's Illusion'd forward with Szeras. Might rely a bit much on getting first turn and a 3 on the Grand Illusion roll.
I'm making the Vault Nihalakh because when it might get 3" near an objective, I can give it a 3++. Not much point keeping it Mephrit, Talent for Anilhilation isn't that good on it.
A Silver Tide thrown forward has gotten me a lot of succes lately. Though I wonder if I have enough anti-tank with the Destroyers, one DDA and Szeras...
Also, no points for Scarabs to hold objectives! :(
List 2:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh Battalion:
HQ: Cloaktek
Overlord /w Hyperphase sword, Veil
Troops: 8x Immortals /w Gauss
5x Immortals /w Tesla
5x Immortals /w Tesla
Fast Attack: 5x Wraiths
6x Destroyers
Heavy Suppport: DDA
Nihalakh Super-heavy aux detachment
Vault
Aux Support detachment (Mephrit) 7x Tomb Blades/w Tesla; 5 /w Shield Vanes, 2/w Shadowlooms and 5 /w Nebula Scopes
Thoughts: A bit of a weak troops choice this time, focusing more on fast attacks. I'm making the Tomb Blades Mephrit to increase their firepower.
dunno... I know this list will be more powerful than the previous one as Silver Tide is a big no-no, but I just feel like the HQ's and the troops are just such a tax for... practically nothing. Will the Wraiths, Destroyers and the Tomb Blades be able to pull all the weight?
Troops: 18x Warriors
10x Warriors
10x Immortals /w Tesla
Elite: Deceiver
Fast attack: 6x Destroyers
Heavy support: DDA Nihalakh Super-heavy aux detachment
Vault
Thoughts behind the list A Silver Tide that get's Illusion'd forward with Szeras. Might rely a bit much on getting first turn and a 3 on the Grand Illusion roll.
I'm making the Vault Nihalakh because when it might get 3" near an objective, I can give it a 3++. Not much point keeping it Mephrit, Talent for Anilhilation isn't that good on it.
A Silver Tide thrown forward has gotten me a lot of succes lately. Though I wonder if I have enough anti-tank with the Destroyers, one DDA and Szeras...
Also, no points for Scarabs to hold objectives! :(
List 2:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh Battalion:
HQ: Cloaktek
Overlord /w Hyperphase sword, Veil
Troops: 8x Immortals /w Gauss
5x Immortals /w Tesla
5x Immortals /w Tesla
Fast Attack: 5x Wraiths
6x Destroyers
Heavy Suppport: DDA
Nihalakh Super-heavy aux detachment
Vault
Aux Support detachment (Mephrit) 7x Tomb Blades/w Tesla; 5 /w Shield Vanes, 2/w Shadowlooms and 5 /w Nebula Scopes
Thoughts: A bit of a weak troops choice this time, focusing more on fast attacks. I'm making the Tomb Blades Mephrit to increase their firepower.
dunno... I know this list will be more powerful than the previous one as Silver Tide is a big no-no, but I just feel like the HQ's and the troops are just such a tax for... practically nothing. Will the Wraiths, Destroyers and the Tomb Blades be able to pull all the weight?
Regarding the first list, I'd rethink the plan on Grand Illusion some units forward and how reliable it is. I'd plan a strategy around 2 units instead.
With a CP reroll, the chances of getting a 3 are 55.5%.
With a CP reroll, the chances of getting a 2 or better are 88.9%.
If you're only looking at 2, then you have the issue of only having 1 unit of troops between your Deceiver and warlord! You could veil the another to add some more padding, but that also depends on you getting first turn.
I think the plan for the vault is great. To be honest, I'd think Grand Illusion the vault may be a better option for if you get first turn. Deceiver, Vault, and a screen of warriors would be very hard to deal with.
1) If using it on a unit with 10 or less models you basically waste it as you wont roll enough RPs to get the points back e.g. 10 Immortals, 6 Destroyers. or you use it on a block of Warriors due to them making the most out of a 2nd RP. But, at that stage, you might as well just bring a Ghost Ark so you constantly have 2 RP phases.
2) it can only be used on Infantry Models. Why give us an add-on that is already expensive to begin with and restrict it? We have a stratagem that lets us bring Canoptek stuff back with RP. If I could use the Res Orb on a RP'd unit of Wraiths I would think the 35pt would be worth it. Even if you only got an extra model back.35 pts would becomes 55pts. I am also annoyed it doesn't affect Tomb Blades. Fair enough they are cheap as chips and shouldn't die. But when you are down to your last TB and need as many RPs as possible than 2 phases of RP becomes golden.
for me to use Res Orb it would either need its usage changed from it being used once only to it being used once per infantry unit e.g. You can buff all you infantry unit once with the Res Orb rather than the res orb be one-use only. If I was able to give all my infantry units 2RPs for 1 turn that would be clutch. Hell, it could even make our RP stronger. But, GW doesn't want to do that.
Res orb is for destroyers, should you want to bring 2 units with a Dlord and a cryptek and slowing move forward.
Can also be worth your points for elites: flayed ones, lychguards (do t pretorian too?).
Of course since everybody plays immortals, your squad of 10 usually gets whiped out one shot anyways.
Either way i never focus my lists around RP, unless i field 60 warriors. If it happens, it happens, i get dudes back up and am happy. But necron vehicules are much strongers than our infantry now. I focus on that.
I am a new 40k player in the UK and trying to build an army with Necrons while discovering the game. The friend who introduced me does not know the Necrons at all so his advice is quite limited in this matter.
Before someone starts telling me off, I have been reading this thread for a few days now and my head is spinning... I understand there is no perfect army, that there are armies made for competition (list with 17 destroyers and 5 DDA?!) but it is very difficult to know where to start...
I think the best advice would be to not take anything here too seriously! If you're new to the game you don't want to be playing a Destroyer + DDA spam list- it might be powerful but it's not going to be as interesting as a more varied list, and isn't necessary in most "normal" games of 40k. A lot of the discussion here focuses on trying to find tournament winning lists, but I doubt most of us actually play with or own the models for these lists!
Some basic starting points:
- Get a DDA or two. There really aren't any other good options for long range anti-tank in the codex, so you need DDAs at any level of play.
- Go for Immortals as troops. I only say this because Warriors require more support, and to have a list built around them. Immortals will more easily slot into whatever list you feel like trying.
- Don't spam anything. The rules are getting changed and updated all the time. Units that are good now won't be forever, and the same is true of bad units. If you put too many eggs in one basket an FAQ could hit you hard, so it's best to have a varied collection.
- The Veil of Darkness relic is very good.
- It's best to go with a rounded list to start with. 3 units of troops with 2 HQs supporting them (Basic Overlord and Cryptek are fine). Some fire support from DDAs and Destroyers. Some cheap, fast units to screen and grab objectives- Tomb blades or scarabs.
A battalion Detachment is kind of essential, so you need another HQ and more troops. I would recommend a Cryptek and a box of Immortals. Then you can have either 2x 5 Immortals + 20 warriors, or 2x 12 Warriors + 10 immotals. Tesla Immortals would be best as you have Gauss on the Warriors.
For fire support you have the DDA and the Triarch Stalker (Use the twin Heavy Gauss option). I would suggest getting another 3 destroyers for a unit of 6.
Then for your objective grabbing + screening you have the Scarabs, wraith + Deathmarks. 3x wraith, 2x 3 Scarabs and 5 Deathmarks will let you spread out and get all over the board. Don't expect the Wraith to be slaughtering things in assault, or the Deathmarks to be executing characters, they will serve you well used primarily for grabbing objectives.
So a Cryptek, box of Immortals, and box of Destroyers will set you up with a nice rounded list to start from:
Spoiler:
Overlord + Veil. Cryptek + Chronometron
12x Warriors 12x Warriors 10x Tesla Immortals
5x Deathmarks Triarch Stalker
6x Destroyers 6x Scarabs 3x Wraith
DDA
1642 pts. 8CP
The troops gather around the HQs, The DDA, Stalker, and Destroyers sit behind. The Scarabs and Wraith flank and scurry off to objectives, while the deathmarks drop on a distant objective/ get linebreaker.
Edit: If you just stick to 3 Destroyers to start with you'll have a 1500pt list.
So I played the tourney with twin vaults, pylon and deciever. Lets say it was not what I expected. Two games were very quick, one me doing the tabling, and one i got tabled. The other two games were a 9-11 loss and a 11-9 win... very odd games but not what I was expecting.
Thoughts - we cant compete at all with dark eldar right now. I was thinking what I would actually build to counter that and there is not much I can put forth that stands a chance.....
Deathwatch are super awesome! They are the only way to play marines now, they are them at their strongest.... spend come CP and their heavy hitters are wounding on 2's rerolling 1's.... with rapid fire overcharged plasma that gets to reroll 1's...
The cron list itself...
Pylon continues to be a sub par unit. Being in nihilakh and rerolling and getting the +1 to save rolls is very nice, but it still is too expensive for its damage output in a tournament setting.
The vaults are good, but there is this weird spot in mortal wound generation, the things are more geared towards more infantry style killing, I think one could be competitive if you had other good units around it killing the vehicles, it really wipes squads of 5+ very quickly, and is terrifying to overwatch when its usually wounding on 3's. On each game I got an overwatch that ended in 15+ wounds dealt to the enemy.... wiped whole squads on overwatch.
Deceiver is crucial to the lists effectiveness. I think a Squad of wraiths or a t/ctan or destroyers getting illusioned up is the best use for it, get those heavy hitters within range ASAP.
Thoughts - we cant compete at all with dark eldar right now. I was thinking what I would actually build to counter that and there is not much I can put forth that stands a chance.....
I assume the DE were a load of light skimmers spewing poison, Darklight, and Dissies?
Destroyers, DDAs, and Tomb Blades are our best bet counter to them. Destroyers can knock out 2 skimmers a turn. It's a tough match up for sure, and it sounds like the only useful things you had would be the Tesla Spheres. Pylon is overkill vs DE and the C'tan powers are not good vs single model units.
Pylon can do work, their planes they were spamming need to die, but its points spent better elsewhere.
Lots of Dis cannons, a squad of 20-30 wyches ate 2 squads of bloodletters in CC.....
Alot of lists had reapers in them, crazy good psykers. The DE are the new power part of the faction, you bring the good stuff from the craftworlds/harlies to make them crazy.
Ive played drukhari a few times now, they are decpetively hard to kill, and if you spam vehicles they have dis and blasters in venoms to wipe you out, while the exact same list has the firepower in poison to table tyranids aggressively quickly. And theyre fast. And they can be buffed by some of the best psykers in the game rn of craftworlds.
Klowny wrote: Pylon can do work, their planes they were spamming need to die, but its points spent better elsewhere.
Lots of Dis cannons, a squad of 20-30 wyches ate 2 squads of bloodletters in CC.....
Alot of lists had reapers in them, crazy good psykers. The DE are the new power part of the faction, you bring the good stuff from the craftworlds/harlies to make them crazy.
Ive played drukhari a few times now, they are decpetively hard to kill, and if you spam vehicles they have dis and blasters in venoms to wipe you out, while the exact same list has the firepower in poison to table tyranids aggressively quickly. And theyre fast. And they can be buffed by some of the best psykers in the game rn of craftworlds.
Euhm, how can they be buffed by Craftworld spykers? Craftworld psychic powers have to target 'Asuryani' (craftworld Aeldari). Drukhari (Dark Aeldari) Can't be targeted by them.
Euhm, how can they be buffed by Craftworld spykers? Craftworld psychic powers have to target 'Asuryani' (craftworld Aeldari). Drukhari (Dark Aeldari) Can't be targeted by them.
Doom is very good for DE and has no restrictions IIRC.
Euhm, how can they be buffed by Craftworld spykers? Craftworld psychic powers have to target 'Asuryani' (craftworld Aeldari). Drukhari (Dark Aeldari) Can't be targeted by them.
Doom is very good for DE and has no restrictions IIRC.
I believe only friendly Craftworld Aeldari benefit IIRC.
Yeah one of the biggest competitive problems currently is how loose the restrictions on aeldari are. Ynnari have veem nerfed into oblivion but the rest of tge factions just mix and match as they like with little hinderance. The FAQ changes did very little to stop this. If they want to stop some of this they need to disallow the use of muliple factions strategems in one army and hard limit the targets of psychic powers. A lot of the craft world stuff just lists aeldari as the limiter which does almost nothing.
I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with Necrons performance at the London GT, with an overall win rate of 43.8% (32W - 41L). And that statistic is boosted with the 2 best necron lists which both ran 3 Vaults. So really, unless someone is building a cheesy list, it's more like 38.1% (24W - 39L)
I'm sure we'll see it fluctuate with time and more tournies, but with our new codex and FAQ, is our best bet at being competitive to run 3 Vaults?
EDIT: Updated as some Necron players reported as a specific Dynasty instead of Necrons
I've always felt that looking to 40k for anything resembling balance is a hilariously pointless endeavour.
While it might be better now that it was before, that isn't really saying much.
Oh well, at least we can give the majority of armies out there a good run for their money, instead of the laughing stock we were back in the index days....
Necronplayer wrote: I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with Necrons performance at the London GT, with an overall win rate of 43.8% (32W - 41L). And that statistic is boosted with the 2 best necron lists which both ran 3 Vaults. So really, unless someone is building a cheesy list, it's more like 38.1% (24W - 39L)
I'm sure we'll see it fluctuate with time and more tournies, but with our new codex and FAQ, is our best bet at being competitive to run 3 Vaults?
EDIT: Updated as some Necron players reported as a specific Dynasty instead of Necrons
To be fair...I believe this GT heavily uses the basic book missions, instead of the scoring metrics used by the ITC and such. Not sure if it would have made a difference, but its worth noting.
It was some odd missions that several were using for prep for a larger tournament. First game was against Cadian tank line. DDAs did okay but not spectacular, destroyers dropped turn two, killed a tank, then died (this is a theme for them). Wraiths soaked 2/3s of his army's firepower, assaulted a tank then got permanently put down in his second turn. Immortals worked with the DDAs to finish off tanks, and also ate up a Scion squad. In the end, I won 14-9.
The second game was against an Alpha Legion list. He had 3 demon princes, a couple of contemptors, three units of obliterators, a unit of berserkers, a unit of possessed, and the rest were units of cultists. I castled in a corner and screened with the wraiths and scarabs. He came in somewhat piecemeal so I was able to draw him in and kill units a few at a time. Once he moved up enough, I veiled into his backfield and wiped the cultists there, gaining me some points and denying him several. Ended up winning 30-(don't remember what his score was but I think it was single digits).
For the third game, I went in sitting in first place. Unfortunately, I was getting a migraine, and up against a very solid player running a triple Riptide list. The DDAs were performing badly, I could barely think with how bad my head hurt, and he was making no real mistakes for me to capitalize on so it was a loss. He had almost max points while I think I had around 10-15.
All in all I finished 6th, won the door raffle (lol), and had a mostly good time (players were great, but that migraine was awful).
Takeaways:
Nothing particularly new learned that I hadn't already seen in other games.
Overlords - Key buffing units that can add an extra wound or two here and there and can be hidden on objectives when the squad they buff is wiped. Don't rely on them to accomplish more than that though.
Immortals - The Swiss army knife of the Necron book. These guys were probably my all stars overall. They could help solve almost any problem by simply slinging tons of hits at it.
Scarabs - Did nothing fancy, just their job. Screened when needed, held objectives when needed, diverted fire from more important things when needed
Wraiths - Every single game these were the number one focus of my opponents during the first two turns. They didn't kill much (I'd be surprised if they made back their points for any game, even if you totaled what they killed over all three), but I didn't really take them for that. They soaked thousands of points of shooting and melee, allowing me time to take down critical targets and get in position with other units.
Destroyers - they come in, put a bunch of fire on something, then die....every single time I've used them. I like them, but I don't expect more than that.
Cryptek - Got me many CPs back (which has been critical in a few games), and helped keep the DDAs firing.
DDAs- Steady wounds from range, they will utterly disappoint from time to time. Really they turn on the juice if you get them into range of something that doesn't like gauss flayers while still pinging large targets with the main gun. QS is nice but there is a ton of S6-7 2-3 dmg guns out there these days. Even mass S5 1dmg stuff is scary to them.
With this you maximise the tesla immortal, 30, with possible 2X MWBD + methological destruction if needed.
Traditional 3 DDA to shoot down big stuff then move and avoid -1 penalty on the big gun. Rely on flyers from T3. I find Cryptek is more useful running to repair DDA than try to pop a 5++ on immortals, yet can come back if needed for RP rolls.
And classic double destroyer drop, 1st one with VoD to alpha, and if possible pop in cover, on a far flank, and have 2+/5++ destroyers with the cryptek. They can survive or draw insane amount of firepower. Second unit deepstrike on T2.
My list is fragile but packs quite a punch. Expensive in CP too you want to cash in early and hope the warlord will get a lucky few back. You always need to shoot down more than you loose, if you do not think you will start pull everything back and let the DDA force the enemy to advance. Destroyers pop anywhere, protect your immortals until needed.
Necronplayer wrote: I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with Necrons performance at the London GT, with an overall win rate of 43.8% (32W - 41L). And that statistic is boosted with the 2 best necron lists which both ran 3 Vaults. So really, unless someone is building a cheesy list, it's more like 38.1% (24W - 39L)
I'm sure we'll see it fluctuate with time and more tournies, but with our new codex and FAQ, is our best bet at being competitive to run 3 Vaults?
EDIT: Updated as some Necron players reported as a specific Dynasty instead of Necrons
Well that's because it was mostly Mephrit Necrons and bad lists - easy signs of bad players. Now if we can get someone like Josh Death, Nick Nanavati, etc to play our army, then we'd know the actual relative power of it.
I think i found a translation error in the german necron codex. Imotekhs phaeron of the sautekh dynasty ability says he can use his MWBD ability twice in one turn, but he must target one friendly unit of SAUTEKH-INFANTRY with it both times. Abilities with the same name dont stack. In english it says he must target units, which is plural. Can anyone from germany with a codex confirm this ?
If we're talking competitive, from what we can tell, it's either
• Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb
• Nephrekh Destroyer Cult + Sautekh DDA³
though the case might be made for Wraith Wing, too.
(personally I prefer a mix of 2:1 Destroyers to Wraiths ratio).
It pains my soul that we haven't seen Tomb Blades preform well in the competitive scene... yet.
p5freak wrote: I think i found a translation error in the german necron codex. Imotekhs phaeron of the sautekh dynasty ability says he can use his MWBD ability twice in one turn, but he must target one friendly unit of SAUTEKH-INFANTRY with it both times. Abilities with the same name dont stack. In english it says he must target units, which is plural. Can anyone from germany with a codex confirm this ?
Should perhaps be "each time" instead of "both times"
Essentially he can do for free what other overlords must pay a CP to do.
Yeah i also kinda feel like Necrons didn't get the high boost from Index to Codex.
Most Index of other armies were quite okay and got a reasonable boost.
Necrons were by far the worst index army and the Codex did some work but they are still nothing compared to Deldar/CWE/Guard/Nids. They should just change REAP somehow or make our units more durable to actually use the core rule of the army. As for now i feel it just makes our units overcosted/undergunned.
I honestly don't think our army is the issue. Sure, we have some subpar units etc, but as has always been the case with 40k, inter-codex balancing is pretty awful. There are just vast swings in power between every book.
Biasn wrote: Yeah i also kinda feel like Necrons didn't get the high boost from Index to Codex.
Most Index of other armies were quite okay and got a reasonable boost.
Necrons were by far the worst index army [b]and the Codex did some work but they are still nothing compared to Deldar/CWE/Guard/Nids. They should just change REAP somehow or make our units more durable to actually use the core rule of the army. As for now i feel it just makes our units overcosted/undergunned.
I'm curious, usually with this kind of list I would go Sautek battalion and Nephrek outrider. Methodical Destruction is great on Tesla Imms. However, I have written (but not tested) a list similar to this with the intention of deep striking the immortal units and the destroyers. Is that what you were doing?
Sure he can. Actually it would be twice again, so four times total.
I don't think so. Imoteks ability lets him use MWBD "twice a turn". The stratagem lets you use MWBD "a second time". The wording is unfortunate as it means you can't use MWBD 3 or 4 times on Imotekh.
It does let you use MWBD twice on units that don't have to be Sautekh though, so he can do a unit or two of Nephrek Destroyers despite being a different Dynasty.
I'm curious, usually with this kind of list I would go Sautek battalion and Nephrek outrider. Methodical Destruction is great on Tesla Imms. However, I have written (but not tested) a list similar to this with the intention of deep striking the immortal units and the destroyers. Is that what you were doing?
.
This gives me a ton of options for deployment, which is more valuable to me than a relatively small increase in the immortals already impressive firepower. I'd rather have the strat on the mercurial DDAs, and a ton of deployment options.
I'm curious, usually with this kind of list I would go Sautek battalion and Nephrek outrider. Methodical Destruction is great on Tesla Imms. However, I have written (but not tested) a list similar to this with the intention of deep striking the immortal units and the destroyers. Is that what you were doing?
Sure he can. Actually it would be twice again, so four times total.
I don't think so. Imoteks ability lets him use MWBD "twice a turn". The stratagem lets you use MWBD "a second time". The wording is unfortunate as it means you can't use MWBD 3 or 4 times on Imotekh.
It does let you use MWBD twice on units that don't have to be Sautekh though, so he can do a unit or two of Nephrek Destroyers despite being a different Dynasty.
Then you use MWBD once, use the stratgem to do it again, then use his last one from his original skill.
This gives me a ton of options for deployment, which is more valuable to me than a relatively small increase in the immortals already impressive firepower. I'd rather have the strat on the mercurial DDAs, and a ton of deployment options.
What I was asking was; have you deep struck with multiple Immortal units and did it seem worth it? You can't get MWBD but I'm thinking it might be good.
This gives me a ton of options for deployment, which is more valuable to me than a relatively small increase in the immortals already impressive firepower. I'd rather have the strat on the mercurial DDAs, and a ton of deployment options.
What I was asking was; have you deep struck with multiple Immortal units and did it seem worth it? You can't get MWBD but I'm thinking it might be good.
I have in one or two games, but in those it was more about making sure my immortals survived a first turn alpha strike, than about positioning. Rarely will I put more than one unit of immortals and the destroyers in reserve, usually it's just the destroyers. As you said, you lose a turn of MWBD, and with the VoD, I have the ability to get behind their lines already. The ability to jump out 12" and gain board position in the center on the first turn is usually more than enough mobility.
Mephrit isn't bad per se but every time I take it i find my army too slow to react to battlefield objectives and always wish I had taken sautek or nephrekh personally. Also Getting into the position to use mephrit seems to be a case of "got there, did it, then out of range to do it again for the next few turns"
I think mephrit is a trap.
Also I can't bring myself to use destroyers. I have read every page of this tactical thread and the common theme I read is
"They show up, destroy something, then die". They are too expensive to throw away like that I think. Unless they are being used to get shot at and die, distraction carnifex like, then I can see them being a useful tactical option.
Azuza001 wrote: Mephrit isn't bad per se but every time I take it i find my army too slow to react to battlefield objectives and always wish I had taken sautek or nephrekh personally. Also Getting into the position to use mephrit seems to be a case of "got there, did it, then out of range to do it again for the next few turns"
I think mephrit is a trap.
Also I can't bring myself to use destroyers. I have read every page of this tactical thread and the common theme I read is
"They show up, destroy something, then die". They are too expensive to throw away like that I think. Unless they are being used to get shot at and die, distraction carnifex like, then I can see them being a useful tactical option.
Remember, all that shooting is going to land somewhere, and likely eating up almost a similar points worth. Knowing that it will come for your destroyers isn't a weakness, its just harder to play it right.
Also I can't bring myself to use destroyers. I have read every page of this tactical thread and the common theme I read is
"They show up, destroy something, then die". They are too expensive to throw away like that I think. Unless they are being used to get shot at and die, distraction carnifex like, then I can see them being a useful tactical option.
Try using them on the flanks to pick off isolated targets whilst keeping out of line of sight. Terrain is your friend.
Also I can't bring myself to use destroyers. I have read every page of this tactical thread and the common theme I read is
"They show up, destroy something, then die". They are too expensive to throw away like that I think. Unless they are being used to get shot at and die, distraction carnifex like, then I can see them being a useful tactical option.
Try using them on the flanks to pick off isolated targets whilst keeping out of line of sight. Terrain is your friend.
To add on to this, go for the maximum threat overload approach. Drop them in when you have other units at their doorstep too, not just when you want to kill something. Force them to pick between a Vault/Deceiver combo within 12", Wraiths about to lock multiple units up next turn, destroyers in the backline, etc.
If we're talking competitive, from what we can tell, it's either
• Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb
• Nephrekh Destroyer Cult + Sautekh DDA³
though the case might be made for Wraith Wing, too.
(personally I prefer a mix of 2:1 Destroyers to Wraiths ratio).
It pains my soul that we haven't seen Tomb Blades preform well in the competitive scene... yet.
I'll put that triple Vault Deceiver bomb thing in the fantasy wish theory hammer drawer,
I have yet to find a human being spending 750+$ for 3 vaults just for the sake of trying it out.
If we're talking competitive, from what we can tell, it's either
• Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb
• Nephrekh Destroyer Cult + Sautekh DDA³
though the case might be made for Wraith Wing, too.
(personally I prefer a mix of 2:1 Destroyers to Wraiths ratio).
It pains my soul that we haven't seen Tomb Blades preform well in the competitive scene... yet.
I'll put that triple Vault Deceiver bomb thing in the fantasy wish theory hammer drawer,
I have yet to find a human being spending 750+$ for 3 vaults just for the sake of trying it out.
Azuza001 wrote: Mephrit isn't bad per se but every time I take it i find my army too slow to react to battlefield objectives and always wish I had taken sautek or nephrekh personally. Also Getting into the position to use mephrit seems to be a case of "got there, did it, then out of range to do it again for the next few turns"
I think mephrit is a trap.
A Talent for Annihilation is 100% the reason to use Mephrit. It makes things dead sooner than Methodical Destruction.
Azuza001 wrote: Mephrit isn't bad per se but every time I take it i find my army too slow to react to battlefield objectives and always wish I had taken sautek or nephrekh personally. Also Getting into the position to use mephrit seems to be a case of "got there, did it, then out of range to do it again for the next few turns"
I think mephrit is a trap.
A Talent for Annihilation is 100% the reason to use Mephrit. It makes things dead sooner than Methodical Destruction.
This. Use it on a squad of Tesla Immortals and things just disappear. Even better if the enemy is within half range.
Talent For Annihilation is best used on a unit of 9 Tesla Tomb Blades. It will be putting out a bunch more hits.
However, that's only one unit shooting.
Methodical Destruction, on the other hand, can let the entire army benefit from it. Granted, it is only against one enemy unit, but if you REALLY need that unit dead (eg. a Lord of War), then this strat is worth it.
On the topic of Destroyer usage, people who lose their Destroyer units after only getting one round of shooting out of them, how are you using them?
Are you sending them up the table?
Are you Veil'ing them up?
Are you deep striking them in?
More importantly, are they being supported or just being sent in by themselves?
Ideally you want them to hit at the same time as everything else so they don't stand out like a sore thumb, obvious and easily smashed. Even better if you've got multiple units of them so you've got a bit of wiggle room with redundancy.
I usually play two dropping in turn 2 via Nephrekh. I was thinking about having one start on the table to be Veiled up for some nice alpha strike surprise, but they would be the only thing up that close so the likelihood of them surviving until turn two when the second unit deepstrikes in will be very low. Could it be worth sacrificing them if it means being able to cause a ton of almost unavoidable damage twice in a row? I don't know. Probably not, but I could try it out.
skoffs wrote: Talent For Annihilation is best used on a unit of 9 Tesla Tomb Blades. It will be putting out a bunch more hits.
However, that's only one unit shooting.
Methodical Destruction, on the other hand, can let the entire army benefit from it. Granted, it is only against one enemy unit, but if you REALLY need that unit dead (eg. a Lord of War), then this strat is worth it.
Methodical Destruction is only good in those cases though. It costs too much to use it every turn, and there's not going to be a target that needs killing like that always either.
Note, i'm not poopooing either Sautekh or Methodical Destruction. They are both good.
I'm just trying to point out that Mephrit is just as good because a lot of this thread keeps calling it trash.
How many LoW are even viable at this point. They're a liability. Even if they are "good" you can just flub some saves and bam 1/4 of your army is dead. With more models luck evens out a lot more. Nick Nanavati has come to the same conclusion. You can't rely on stuff like Magnus/Shadowswords/etc unless it's just stupid powerful. They are usually simple to play and therefor, you can't outplay your opponent.
And I still go back to "I need more CP to begin with, not more "OK damage upgrade" ways to spend the damn things". Now it it was something stupid like 1CP for +2 to hit and to wound - sure.
The LoW example was just that, an example.
Usually every game, in almost every matchup, your opponent will have a key unit that most of their strategy revolves around. Take out that unit and the battle will probably swing in your favor.
With Talent for Annihilation you could possibly do it.
With Methodical Destruction you will more than likely do it.
The difference is simply one unit shooting vs shooting at one unit. Both are viable in the right scenario.
(and for the record, I'm a big fan of Mephrit in certain combinations)
Do they have 1 key unit? Who exactly does that? Redundancy is key to winning competitive 40k. Even If there's a single key unit(note: really durable key unit that will easily survive 2 full units of destroyers/DDA), they will do everything in the world to protect it - DG untargetable, -1 to hit, +1 to invul, deepstrike etc etc.
And 1/6 more hits on one unit will not suddenly make you work miracles. +1 to hit for everything is of course better, but what good player will put their 1 amazing unit within 24''+move of a bunch of your army? If we had 36''+ range on most of our army - sure. But right now it's too situational IMO. Ofc that stratagem is not why you take Sauhtek(can't spell dynasties ._.) so its just a bonus in the end I guess.
I was at a 1k tournament where someone ran magnus and mortarion and some cheap infantry. Both are almost impossible to kill at 1k. He placed second, but only because the opponent made his infantry unchargeable by putting them on the first floor of a ruin. There were no crons, it was pre-codex.
rvd1ofakind wrote: How many LoW are even viable at this point. They're a liability. Even if they are "good" you can just flub some saves and bam 1/4 of your army is dead. With more models luck evens out a lot more. Nick Nanavati has come to the same conclusion. You can't rely on stuff like Magnus/Shadowswords/etc unless it's just stupid powerful. They are usually simple to play and therefor, you can't outplay your opponent.
And I still go back to "I need more CP to begin with, not more "OK damage upgrade" ways to spend the damn things". Now it it was something stupid like 1CP for +2 to hit and to wound - sure.
Here is a list being run in my gaming group... ha ha ha
If we're talking competitive, from what we can tell, it's either
• Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb
• Nephrekh Destroyer Cult + Sautekh DDA³
though the case might be made for Wraith Wing, too.
(personally I prefer a mix of 2:1 Destroyers to Wraiths ratio).
It pains my soul that we haven't seen Tomb Blades preform well in the competitive scene... yet.
I'll put that triple Vault Deceiver bomb thing in the fantasy wish theory hammer drawer,
I have yet to find a human being spending 750+$ for 3 vaults just for the sake of trying it out.
Hi, im that human being. Ill be trying it out on Saturday. Ill try and do a report when its over. The price was just over $200 for all three of mine. So with paint id say $230-$250.
So I haven't had a lot of time to play my Necrons recently and I was wondering how useful have Crypteks been for you all? I've seen people say their 5-6 destroyers get killed to a man in one turn with no chance for RP. How often does the Crypteks ability come up and be very useful?
Msolve wrote: So I haven't had a lot of time to play my Necrons recently and I was wondering how useful have Crypteks been for you all? I've seen people say their 5-6 destroyers get killed to a man in one turn with no chance for RP. How often does the Crypteks ability come up and be very useful?
Depends on the unit its being used on.
You will only RP Destroyers if they are in cover and you got lucky on your opponents turn.
I think Crypteks work best with Warriors, Flayed Ones and Tomb Blades. I don't really see much use for anything else that has RPatm.
I'm not sure how people are finding their Destroyers so fragile. In terrain they have a 2+ and T5 so small arms fire is next to useless against them- 486 bolter shots!. D3 and 2 damage weapons are quite good but tend to give a 4+ or 5+ Sv and need two wounds to go through per Destroyer. 40 overcharged Plasma guns should do it. D6 and 3 damage weapons are what you need to kill them really well, but it still takes 20-25 BS3+ Lascannons to wipe a unit of 6 in cover.
If they're deep striking they have the added defense of being able to land in a safe-ish spot, and get the drop on whatever can threaten them. In my experience they certainly do die, because the enemy tends to throw everything they can at them, but it takes a lot of doing. Mine seem to survive with a model or two left most of the time, which is really bad for someone who just put a whole shooting phase into them.
Re: Talent for Annihilation:
This. Use it on a squad of Tesla Immortals and things just disappear. Even better if the enemy is within half range.
The extra 3.3 hits for 1 CP in this scenario is hardly mind blowing. The strat is fine but nothing to get excited about.
Msolve wrote: So I haven't had a lot of time to play my Necrons recently and I was wondering how useful have Crypteks been for you all? I've seen people say their 5-6 destroyers get killed to a man in one turn with no chance for RP. How often does the Crypteks ability come up and be very useful?
I really like cryptek with Immortal pride warlord trait as your warlord. This forces your opponent to kill your squads fully, without relying on comand checks etc. This often leads to situations where he doesn't commit enought (or his dices go bad and he don't have additional guns atthis side of the board) and you have 1-2 models reamining, after that half of your unit come back; or he commits too much and some of his firepower is wasted. I mean, there is no problem if 1 space marine from 10 survives. But if thats 1 immortal, thats much worse.
I really like 20 necron warriors as a screen - being fearless and 4+ RP is their best friend. They often first take a punch, some of them die, then they got teleported on opponents side of board with VoD where they start fight with opponent scoring units.
I have in one or two games, but in those it was more about making sure my immortals survived a first turn alpha strike, than about positioning. Rarely will I put more than one unit of immortals and the destroyers in reserve, usually it's just the destroyers. As you said, you lose a turn of MWBD, and with the VoD, I have the ability to get behind their lines already. The ability to jump out 12" and gain board position in the center on the first turn is usually more than enough mobility.
I tested this out last night with this list:
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion:
CCB Cryptek + Veil
10 x Tesla Imm
10 x Tesla Imm
10 x Tesla Imm
6 x Wraith
6 x Tomb Blades
6 x Destroyers
DDA DDA
I really liked it! I put the Destroyers and 2 Immortal units in Translocation Crypts, with the 3rd Immortal unit being veiled by the Cryptek. Compared to my usual Sautekh battalion it felt like I was exchanging firepower for maneuverability. The loss of firepower was more than made up for though; Deepstriking so much stuff was great, but the ability to put 2x MWBD on 20 Immortals the following turn, and have them and the destroyers move 10-12" and shoot 24" sealed the deal. Not only was it really effective, it was much more fun to play.
I have in one or two games, but in those it was more about making sure my immortals survived a first turn alpha strike, than about positioning. Rarely will I put more than one unit of immortals and the destroyers in reserve, usually it's just the destroyers. As you said, you lose a turn of MWBD, and with the VoD, I have the ability to get behind their lines already. The ability to jump out 12" and gain board position in the center on the first turn is usually more than enough mobility.
I tested this out last night with this list:
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion:
CCB Cryptek + Veil
10 x Tesla Imm
10 x Tesla Imm
10 x Tesla Imm
6 x Wraith
6 x Tomb Blades
6 x Destroyers
DDA DDA
I really liked it! I put the Destroyers and 2 Immortal units in Translocation Crypts, with the 3rd Immortal unit being veiled by the Cryptek. Compared to my usual Sautekh battalion it felt like I was exchanging firepower for maneuverability. The loss of firepower was more than made up for though; Deepstriking so much stuff was great, but the ability to put 2x MWBD on 20 Immortals the following turn, and have them and the destroyers move 10-12" and shoot 24" sealed the deal. Not only was it really effective, it was much more fun to play.
Did you go first or second, and how much did lose in his first turn, and what kind of army did you play against?
I have in one or two games, but in those it was more about making sure my immortals survived a first turn alpha strike, than about positioning. Rarely will I put more than one unit of immortals and the destroyers in reserve, usually it's just the destroyers. As you said, you lose a turn of MWBD, and with the VoD, I have the ability to get behind their lines already. The ability to jump out 12" and gain board position in the center on the first turn is usually more than enough mobility.
I tested this out last night with this list:
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion:
CCB Cryptek + Veil
10 x Tesla Imm
10 x Tesla Imm
10 x Tesla Imm
6 x Wraith
6 x Tomb Blades
6 x Destroyers
DDA DDA
I really liked it! I put the Destroyers and 2 Immortal units in Translocation Crypts, with the 3rd Immortal unit being veiled by the Cryptek. Compared to my usual Sautekh battalion it felt like I was exchanging firepower for maneuverability. The loss of firepower was more than made up for though; Deepstriking so much stuff was great, but the ability to put 2x MWBD on 20 Immortals the following turn, and have them and the destroyers move 10-12" and shoot 24" sealed the deal. Not only was it really effective, it was much more fun to play.
Awesome! Glad you had fun with it. I really feel that the positioning and mobility will do far more for you than the extra firepower. Even in games where I didn't make much of a dent against the opponent's forces, I would win or come close simply through objectives by playing to the mission.
I'd love to play some tomb blades, but despise the models. I've got some destroyer conversions I'm working on for them though.
-Sentinel- wrote: I really like cryptek with Immortal pride warlord trait as your warlord. This forces your opponent to kill your squads fully, without relying on comand checks etc. This often leads to situations where he doesn't commit enought (or his dices go bad and he don't have additional guns atthis side of the board) and you have 1-2 models reamining, after that half of your unit come back; or he commits too much and some of his firepower is wasted. I mean, there is no problem if 1 space marine from 10 survives. But if thats 1 immortal, thats much worse.
I really like 20 necron warriors as a screen - being fearless and 4+ RP is their best friend. They often first take a punch, some of them die, then they got teleported on opponents side of board with VoD where they start fight with opponent scoring units.
My Crypteks usually succumb to sniper fire as they are not very durable and usually worth taking our by your opponent if they brought snipers. Unless I escort them with Lychguard (an escort that costs more than the cryptek, but it can work as part of a "command blob" with overlord) I would not consider making one my warlord for an easy First Blood/Slay the Warlord to my opponent...
Did you go first or second, and how much did lose in his first turn, and what kind of army did you play against?
Well it wasn't the most serious of games. I was against 2 people with 1000pts of Tau (Firewarriors, Riptide, 2x CIB commanders, Marker Drones), and 1000pts of Tyranids (60 Hormagants, 20 Stealers, Malenthrope, Broodlord, Hive Gaurd).
Dawn of War deployment. My pair of DDAs and the Tomb Blades hid in a corner. The Wraith, 10 Immortals and Cryptek hid in a LoS blocking ruin in the center. Tau deployed centrally with the horde of -1 to hit bugs to the side of them (the flank with my DDAs on).
I got first turn, but played defensively and didn't do a lot of damage- a handful of gaunts and firewarriors. The bugs advanced, and the Tau moved to get shots (a bit too aggressively). The wraith and a DDA soaked up some fire with little damage.
On my second turn 30 Immortals and the Destroyers landed right where they needed to be- decimating the Tau whilst staying out of the bugs charge range. It was pretty much game at that point, all of my units could move ~12" a turn whilst shooting 24" so I was able to kite the bug ball and pick it off.
Not exactly a trial by fire for the Nephrek, but I was impressed by the potential it showed.
I'd love to play some tomb blades, but despise the models. I've got some destroyer conversions I'm working on for them though.
They were probably the weakest link in the list. By no means bad though, they fit the theme of mobile firepower, but more Destroyers or a 3rd DDA would probably be better.
They were probably the weakest link in the list. By no means bad though, they fit the theme of mobile firepower, but more Destroyers or a 3rd DDA would probably be better.
Makes sense. You're deep-striking Immortals did their job. Normally Tomb Blades /w Tesla are our go-to mobile anti-infantry unit.
Jackers wrote: I'd be worried about leaving a CCB without an invuln in that list. Did the target saturation via Deep Strike keep it safe?
Also, did you find spending 3 CP before the game to DS those units left you short of CP for anything?
I'm not really sure what to do with the CCB in this list. I wanted it so that I could get MWBD over to the immortals wherever they land. I'm of the opinion that CCBs are awful at close combat. 3 attacks with a Warscythe is pointless, the 3 damage relic Scythe would make it ok, maybe. I had thought that I could make it the warlord with -1 to hit trait and Lightning field relic. It would be hard to kill, but why? It still won't scare anyone in CC. The Solar staff is also an option to make it a bit more shooty.
I decided it would be best equipped with a staff of light and Gauss Cannon to do a bit off shooting and buff Immortals. The Cryptek was the warlord with the +3" to auras trait. I've never used that trait before, but found it was a good fit for this list as it means the infantry's movement is less restricted while trying to get buffs.
The lack of CP is an issue, although you are getting something for the 3 spent at deployment. I did find the list to be less CP hungry than normal: no phaerons will for the first 2 turns and no methodical destruction/ talent for annihilation.
Both of theses issues could possibly be improved a little by swapping the CCB for 2 overlords. I'd get an extra CP from an outrider detachment and wouldn't be tempted to do something flashy with the CCB.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The lack of CP is an issue, although you are getting something for the 3 spent at deployment. I did find the list to be less CP hungry than normal: no phaerons will for the first 2 turns and no methodical destruction/ talent for annihilation.
Both of theses issues could possibly be improved a little by swapping the CCB for 2 overlords. I'd get an extra CP from an outrider detachment and wouldn't be tempted to do something flashy with the CCB.
I had that thought when I first saw the list. Would you have a Nephrek Outrider, or would you maybe swap the Tomb Blades for a 3rd DDA and take a Sautekh Spearhead?
I had that thought when I first saw the list. Would you have a Nephrek Outrider, or would you maybe swap the Tomb Blades for a 3rd DDA and take a Sautekh Spearhead?
Definitely option 2.
However I don't own 3 DDA sadly. I can take an anni barge for the price of 3 tomb blades and a wraith. Then split the CCB into two cheaper HQs. That way I have a Sauthekh spearhead. Probably still an improvement despite the anni barge bieng less than optimal.
Jackers wrote: Definitely looks like an interesting list. I'm always a fan of things that make use of as many different units as possible.
Would you make the cloaktek the warlord for the Sautekh trait, or would you stick with the Overlord?
The Cloaktek with Hyperlogical strategist. It takes the initial list from 8CP up to an average of 13. pretty significant gains for the loss of a few tesla shots and a wraith.
If we're talking competitive, from what we can tell, it's either
• Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb
• Nephrekh Destroyer Cult + Sautekh DDA³
though the case might be made for Wraith Wing, too.
(personally I prefer a mix of 2:1 Destroyers to Wraiths ratio).
It pains my soul that we haven't seen Tomb Blades preform well in the competitive scene... yet.
I'll put that triple Vault Deceiver bomb thing in the fantasy wish theory hammer drawer,
I have yet to find a human being spending 750+$ for 3 vaults just for the sake of trying it out.
Hi, im that human being. Ill be trying it out on Saturday. Ill try and do a report when its over. The price was just over $200 for all three of mine. So with paint id say $230-$250.
Jackers wrote: Definitely looks like an interesting list. I'm always a fan of things that make use of as many different units as possible.
Would you make the cloaktek the warlord for the Sautekh trait, or would you stick with the Overlord?
The Cloaktek with Hyperlogical strategist. It takes the initial list from 8CP up to an average of 13. pretty significant gains for the loss of a few tesla shots and a wraith.
That being said, both sides effects of the cryptek would benefit well from the +3" aura right?
If we're talking competitive, from what we can tell, it's either
• Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb
• Nephrekh Destroyer Cult + Sautekh DDA³
though the case might be made for Wraith Wing, too.
(personally I prefer a mix of 2:1 Destroyers to Wraiths ratio).
It pains my soul that we haven't seen Tomb Blades preform well in the competitive scene... yet.
I'll put that triple Vault Deceiver bomb thing in the fantasy wish theory hammer drawer,
I have yet to find a human being spending 750+$ for 3 vaults just for the sake of trying it out.
Hi, im that human being. Ill be trying it out on Saturday. Ill try and do a report when its over. The price was just over $200 for all three of mine. So with paint id say $230-$250.
Well i was speaking listed price. If i 3D printed mines it would cost 20$.
Tell us how it went. I doubt it is better than 3 immo 3 dda 2 destro cause of lack of ap and lack of boosts. But i want to hear the results.
That being said, both sides effects of the cryptek would benefit well from the +3" aura right?
Yeah, the 5++ and the +1 RP auras both benefit. Having double range on aura abilities (WL trait on the cryptek, wave of command on the CCB) makes quite a big difference when you're going for mobility. 30 Immortals and 6 Destroyers trying to get the 3" Cryptek buffs ends up being a big blob of crons. The extra 3" from the trait may not seem like much, but it lets you spread out into 4 distinct units covering a ~24" diameter area without having to daisy chain.
A foot slogging overlord is going to struggle to bring his MWBD over to the deepstriking infantry compared with the CCB. 7" less movement and 6" less MWBD range. I'm thinking of giving him the solar staff (-1CP for extra relic), so that if he's out on his own he can MWBD himself for a 12" move and 6 shots hitting on 2's. I'm not sure if that's just throwing good CP after bad points though, so to speak. Do we think the -1 to hit from the solar staff stacks with itself? So the target unit could end up with as much as -6 to hit, might help the Wraith in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the "competitive" version of the Nephrek battalion list:
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion:
Overlord + HPS Cryptek + Veil
10x Tesla Imms 10x Tesla Imms 10x Tesla Imms
6x Destroyers 6x Destroyers
Sautekh Spearhead:
Lord + HPS, Walord, Hyperlogical Strategist
DDA DDA DDA
1932pts, 9CP.
Deepstrike the Destroyers and up to 2 units of Immortals.
Yeah it's basically the same list that's been posted many times already.
68pts left over. A unit of 5 Scarabs? Upgrades for the HQs?
Dropping one Immortal would give enough points to make the Overlord a CCB- You really want to be able to get those Immortals moving 12" and hitting normally with MWBD the turn after they arrive.
TBH, I haven't had any issues getting 3 units of immortals or warriors in RP and Chronometron range just gotta spread out a little bit, and toe into the bubble. Gives me that fun silver tide feeling.
If they're in Nephrekh, definitely Scarabs. For fast objective grabbers, they're worth their weight in FW resin.
Though... why a Sautekh Lord? He's doing nothing for the rest of the list. Why not a Sautekh Cloak-tek? At least then he'll be able to repair the Arks.
So something like-
Though, if you wanted to, you could drop some Immortals to upgrade those Scarabs to Wraiths. Less shooting, though, so probably best to just go with as is.
If they're in Nephrekh, definitely Scarabs. For fast objective grabbers, they're worth their weight in FW resin. Though... why a Sautekh Lord? He's doing nothing for the rest of the list. Why not a Sautekh Cloak-tek? At least then he'll be able to repair the Arks. So something like- [spoiler] Nephrek Battalion:
.
I kept the HQs as cheap as possible just to see how many spare points there were, but really the ability of the cloak-tek is so insignificant that it is possibly outweighed by having 9pts and a slightly harder to kill warlord (for this reason, an overlord for 87pts is probably better than a cloak-tek at 85pts). Also, in this list you want the Sautekh warlord to be the first drop at deployment, followed by all the units in translocation crypts. That allows you to get the CPs back on a 5+, and not give your opponent anything to counter deploy against for their first 3-5 drops. If the warlord is deployed first, and the DDAs last, then he may not be anywhere near them anyway.
The Scarabs are probably the best choice, but getting MWBD on the Immortals makes a big difference- allowing them to move 12" without halving their firepower- so a CCB is very tempting.
TBH, I haven't had any issues getting 3 units of immortals or warriors in RP and Chronometron range just gotta spread out a little bit, and toe into the bubble. Gives me that fun silver tide feeling.
Almost all my lists have 3 units crowding round a cryptek and it works fine, but in this list when immortals might be deepstriking or jumping 12", the extra range helps.
The repairtek is pretty easily hidden among the DDAs where no one can drop next to him and not be within an inch of the DDAs. I'd rather have an 85 pt model doing something than a 73 pt model doing nothing. Also with the 10" move the cloaktek has, you can bounce him onto late game objectives once the threats that can get to him are removed and the DDAs either move out or start going down.
I usually wait on my immortals deployments to see what my opponent does. That being the case, deploying the warlord first is irrelevant.
Having the scarabs is by far more valuable to me as they are fast and versatile.
Anyone have any fun with a Nightshroud Bomber? It seems fun and I like the model, but that's a ton of points for a glorified, non transport Scythe with a 1 shot weapon and 2 more wounds.
nintura wrote: Anyone have any fun with a Nightshroud Bomber? It seems fun and I like the model, but that's a ton of points for a glorified, non transport Scythe with a 1 shot weapon and 2 more wounds.
That being said, both sides effects of the cryptek would benefit well from the +3" aura right?
Yeah, the 5++ and the +1 RP auras both benefit. Having double range on aura abilities (WL trait on the cryptek, wave of command on the CCB) makes quite a big difference when you're going for mobility. 30 Immortals and 6 Destroyers trying to get the 3" Cryptek buffs ends up being a big blob of crons. The extra 3" from the trait may not seem like much, but it lets you spread out into 4 distinct units covering a ~24" diameter area without having to daisy chain.
A foot slogging overlord is going to struggle to bring his MWBD over to the deepstriking infantry compared with the CCB. 7" less movement and 6" less MWBD range. I'm thinking of giving him the solar staff (-1CP for extra relic), so that if he's out on his own he can MWBD himself for a 12" move and 6 shots hitting on 2's. I'm not sure if that's just throwing good CP after bad points though, so to speak. Do we think the -1 to hit from the solar staff stacks with itself? So the target unit could end up with as much as -6 to hit, might help the Wraith in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the "competitive" version of the Nephrek battalion list:
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion:
Overlord + HPS Cryptek + Veil
10x Tesla Imms
10x Tesla Imms
10x Tesla Imms
6x Destroyers
6x Destroyers
Sautekh Spearhead:
Lord + HPS, Walord, Hyperlogical Strategist
DDA DDA DDA
1932pts, 9CP.
Deepstrike the Destroyers and up to 2 units of Immortals.
Yeah it's basically the same list that's been posted many times already.
68pts left over. A unit of 5 Scarabs? Upgrades for the HQs?
Dropping one Immortal would give enough points to make the Overlord a CCB- You really want to be able to get those Immortals moving 12" and hitting normally with MWBD the turn after they arrive.
I think you will need some scarabs for screeners. I am looking at assault armies like Chaos Berekers, nids, Blood angels, Drukhari Reavers, Raven guard, etc... I would probably drop 1 DDA and add 2 units of 9x scarabs fro screeners and Onjective grabbers and board control. That gains 193 pts, and the scarabs cost 234, totaling now is 1973, use those points for HQ upgrades. Two Staff of light instead of swords is another 14 pts, thats 1987.
That being said, both sides effects of the cryptek would benefit well from the +3" aura right?
Yeah, the 5++ and the +1 RP auras both benefit. Having double range on aura abilities (WL trait on the cryptek, wave of command on the CCB) makes quite a big difference when you're going for mobility. 30 Immortals and 6 Destroyers trying to get the 3" Cryptek buffs ends up being a big blob of crons. The extra 3" from the trait may not seem like much, but it lets you spread out into 4 distinct units covering a ~24" diameter area without having to daisy chain.
A foot slogging overlord is going to struggle to bring his MWBD over to the deepstriking infantry compared with the CCB. 7" less movement and 6" less MWBD range. I'm thinking of giving him the solar staff (-1CP for extra relic), so that if he's out on his own he can MWBD himself for a 12" move and 6 shots hitting on 2's. I'm not sure if that's just throwing good CP after bad points though, so to speak. Do we think the -1 to hit from the solar staff stacks with itself? So the target unit could end up with as much as -6 to hit, might help the Wraith in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the "competitive" version of the Nephrek battalion list:
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion:
Overlord + HPS Cryptek + Veil
10x Tesla Imms
10x Tesla Imms
10x Tesla Imms
6x Destroyers
6x Destroyers
Sautekh Spearhead:
Lord + HPS, Walord, Hyperlogical Strategist
DDA DDA DDA
1932pts, 9CP.
Deepstrike the Destroyers and up to 2 units of Immortals.
Yeah it's basically the same list that's been posted many times already.
68pts left over. A unit of 5 Scarabs? Upgrades for the HQs?
Dropping one Immortal would give enough points to make the Overlord a CCB- You really want to be able to get those Immortals moving 12" and hitting normally with MWBD the turn after they arrive.
I think you will need some scarabs for screeners. I am looking at assault armies like Chaos Berekers, nids, Blood angels, Drukhari Reavers, Raven guard, etc... I would probably drop 1 DDA and add 2 units of 9x scarabs fro screeners and Onjective grabbers and board control. That gains 193 pts, and the scarabs cost 234, totaling now is 1973, use those points for HQ upgrades. Two Staff of light instead of swords is another 14 pts, thats 1987.
That's partially why I only run one unit of destroyers and instead run a unit of wraiths in addition to my unit of scarabs. Castle up and take the charge on those guys, then the flayers from the DDAs alone takes care of most of that problem while the immortals just jump over and clean up plus shoot the crap out of whatever they have following up.
That's partially why I only run one unit of destroyers and instead run a unit of wraiths in addition to my unit of scarabs. Castle up and take the charge on those guys, then the flayers from the DDAs alone takes care of most of that problem while the immortals just jump over and clean up plus shoot the crap out of whatever they have following up.
More Destroyers and fewer Doomsday Arks are where you should be generating Wraith points.
Doomsday Arks are pretty good, but they aren't even in the same ballpark as Destroyers.
So played my first game against a tau storm surge list with a vault.. now the vault sucks. 3x dda and 2x6 destroyers were amazing but the vault. It should be priced at 200 points not just under 500. D3 mortal wounds doesn't cut it..
Sn33R wrote: So played my first game against a tau storm surge list with a vault.. now the vault sucks. 3x dda and 2x6 destroyers were amazing but the vault. It should be priced at 200 points not just under 500. D3 mortal wounds doesn't cut it..
It casts 3 powers, should be able to do more than D3 wounds
Might need the Deceiver to propell it up, just try to stay clear of the short range profiles of the Surge
Yea keep in mind that the Vault is eating ALL the anti-tank. The DDA won't be targeted because of QS and the Destroyers will eat plasma-esque weaponry.
That's partially why I only run one unit of destroyers and instead run a unit of wraiths in addition to my unit of scarabs. Castle up and take the charge on those guys, then the flayers from the DDAs alone takes care of most of that problem while the immortals just jump over and clean up plus shoot the crap out of whatever they have following up.
More Destroyers and fewer Doomsday Arks are where you should be generating Wraith points.
Doomsday Arks are pretty good, but they aren't even in the same ballpark as Destroyers.
If you are trying to use DDAs in the same manner as destroyers, you are doing it wrong. They are two entirely different tools.
Doctoralex wrote: Yea keep in mind that the Vault is eating ALL the anti-tank. The DDA won't be targeted because of QS and the Destroyers will eat plasma-esque weaponry.
TBH I don't get the love for the Vault.
Its a infantry killer...Our codex is already good at killing infantry. I get it, it pitches out mortal wounds, but I'm not sure its really worthwhile.
Doctoralex wrote: Yea keep in mind that the Vault is eating ALL the anti-tank. The DDA won't be targeted because of QS and the Destroyers will eat plasma-esque weaponry.
TBH I don't get the love for the Vault.
Its a infantry killer...Our codex is already good at killing infantry. I get it, it pitches out mortal wounds, but I'm not sure its really worthwhile.
Well, Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb™ lists seem to be doing pretty well in the competitive scene. Maybe it's the singular Vaults in lists that aren't doing so great?
(I don't have any experience with either so I couldn't tell you)
The triple vault lists were the best performers in an underperforming group at the LGT. I wouldn't consider those results indicative of that list actually working at a highly competitive level.
Arachnofiend wrote: The triple vault lists were the best performers in an underperforming group at the LGT. I wouldn't consider those results indicative of that list actually working at a highly competitive level.
Further tests would need to be conducted to form a better conclusion... but unfortunately, as has been mentioned already, not many people have access to three of the most expensive necron models available so these required tests will be few and far between.
D-Day™ lists, on the other hand (Destroyer & Doomsday centric builds), are fairly easy to come by, so we know how effective they can be.
Wish I had more Tomb Blades so I could experiment with them in lists. Quick mass Tesla or easy rapid fire range Gauss should in theory be pretty good, but without the numbers to pull it off it probably won't be as effective.
So regarding the tried and true favorites, if we make a min-max list of only our greatest hits (2x Overlords + 1x Cloak-tek, 3x10 Tesla Immortals, 3x6 Destroyers, 3x Doomsday Arks) that would come to about 2250 points... the key now is figuring out what to shave down to get it under 2k.
Easiest for me is to drop one Destroyer squad and replace with Scarabs to come in under cost. Some people might prefer to reduce the number of Immortals instead. Ymmv, obviously.
Ordana wrote: Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.
Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).
BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.
Ordana wrote: Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.
Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).
BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.
Even against T7/T8 3+, a unit of 6 with EP will be putting out almost 15 unsaved wounds on average. Point for point with EP, they are our best AV despite only being S6.
Reading through this thread to catch up, since I'm getting back into things after a few years off.
Previous list style that I had a lot of fun with was Canoptek creatures clearing out the ground to make way for Immortals coming in on Night Scythes. Wondering if this kind of thing is still viable.
Generally ran something on the order of
a Destroyer Lord or two in the initial ground wave leading the units
a squad of Canoptek Acanthrites
2 squads of Wraiths, generally with Whip Coils but I think I'll skip them this time in favor of Beamers or just claws
2 Canoptek Stalkers or Sentinels
2-3 Night Scythes with Immortals (with Tesla Carbines), dropping them down to take objectives and provide fire support once the machines have thinned things out, while the Scythes fly around to tear up light transports and things
I've heard Scythes aren't good anymore, nor Acanthrites. I thought about tossing in a Cryptek with each Immortal squad, but realized that they're not joining the unit, just hanging out with them, and the Scythes only teleport in one unit at a time so they'd have to come in in a second wave or something, so my followup thought was Crypteks with cloaks flying behind the Stalkers/Sentinels to keep them healthy. And Destroyer Lords don't impart Hatred to their units anymore, so there's less use of leading others with them, though could still be nice to add some extra punch.
Nightbringer's Chosen wrote: Reading through this thread to catch up, since I'm getting back into things after a few years off.
Previous list style that I had a lot of fun with was Canoptek creatures clearing out the ground to make way for Immortals coming in on Night Scythes. Wondering if this kind of thing is still viable.
Spoiler:
Generally ran something on the order of
a Destroyer Lord or two in the initial ground wave leading the units
a squad of Canoptek Acanthrites
2 squads of Wraiths, generally with Whip Coils but I think I'll skip them this time in favor of Beamers or just claws
2 Canoptek Stalkers or Sentinels
2-3 Night Scythes with Immortals (with Tesla Carbines), dropping them down to take objectives and provide fire support once the machines have thinned things out, while the Scythes fly around to tear up light transports and things
I've heard Scythes aren't good anymore, nor Acanthrites. I thought about tossing in a Cryptek with each Immortal squad, but realized that they're not joining the unit, just hanging out with them, and the Scythes only teleport in one unit at a time so they'd have to come in in a second wave or something, so my followup thought was Crypteks with cloaks flying behind the Stalkers/Sentinels to keep them healthy. And Destroyer Lords don't impart Hatred to their units anymore, so there's less use of leading others with them, though could still be nice to add some extra punch.
Thoughts?
Yeah, unfortunately almost all of that isn't very viable anymore.
• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.
• Wraiths are decent (keep them naked), but the Destroyer Lord isn't really a great match with them (nor is he really all that worth taking).
• Acanthrites are worse than Wraiths, more or less. Scarabs are great, though! Don't bother with Spyders, however.
Ordana wrote: Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.
Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).
BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.
Even against T7/T8 3+, a unit of 6 with EP will be putting out almost 15 unsaved wounds on average. Point for point with EP, they are our best AV despite only being S6.
I know I've done the math. But ugh. I really want to have a good experience with them. SOME. DAY. I hope that day will come soon.
Still, you have to keep pumping them with CP. Is it even worth it at that point? I'll take my "wee bit worse" damage with DDA if I don't have to pump it with CP.
Ordana wrote: Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.
Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).
BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.
Even against T7/T8 3+, a unit of 6 with EP will be putting out almost 15 unsaved wounds on average. Point for point with EP, they are our best AV despite only being S6.
I know I've done the math. But ugh. I really want to have a good experience with them. SOME. DAY. I hope that day will come soon.
Still, you have to keep pumping them with CP. Is it even worth it at that point? I'll take my "wee bit worse" damage with DDA if I don't have to pump it with CP.
1 unit of destroyers is mandatory when you face some multiwound infantry that is gonna wreck your face fast. Destroyers are very good at killing obliterators for example. While 3 DDA struggle to kill more than 1 unit per turn.
• Wraiths are decent (keep them naked), but the Destroyer Lord isn't really a great match with them (nor is he really all that worth taking).
You are joking right ? A model for 130 pts with 10" move, can fly, 4++, T6 W6 A4 re-roll hit rolls of 1s, lets (heavy) destroyers re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase, who can raise from the dead two times and heals D3 wound every players turn is not worth taking ? Make him the warlord and he can snipe characters, he can get -1 to hit, reduce damage by 1, etc. etc.
• Wraiths are decent (keep them naked), but the Destroyer Lord isn't really a great match with them (nor is he really all that worth taking).
You are joking right ? A model for 130 pts with 10" move, can fly, 4++, T6 W6 A4 re-roll hit rolls of 1s, lets (heavy) destroyers re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase, who can raise from the dead two times and heals D3 wound every players turn is not worth taking ? Make him the warlord and he can snipe characters, he can get -1 to hit, reduce damage by 1, etc. etc.
Agreed. Or give him a Voidblade and Honorable Combatant and he deletes enemy characters.
• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.
Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.
Likes? Sure. Needs? No. Especially when compared to the guy who can give them MWBD.
skoffs wrote: • Wraiths are decent (keep them naked), but the Destroyer Lord isn't really a great match with them (nor is he really all that worth taking).
You are joking right ? A model for 130 pts with 10" move, can fly, 4++, T6 W6 A4 re-roll hit rolls of 1s, lets (heavy) destroyers re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase, who can raise from the dead two times and heals D3 wound every players turn is not worth taking ? Make him the warlord and he can snipe characters, he can get -1 to hit, reduce damage by 1, etc. etc.
Well, if you've had success with him, cool. (it's certainly possible to build a decent D.Lord, eg. Ghetto Celestine).
But his buff is pretty sub par (especially compared to a regular Lord), and while he does have more attacks, they're only hitting on 3s compared to an Overlord/CCB's 2s, so he's not exactly the unstopable combat powerhouse he once was.
Most of us tend to rather spend the points on things that can better contribute to the battle (eg. more Destroyers... but not heavies. They're not worth it)
Maelstrom808 wrote: The repairtek is pretty easily hidden among the DDAs where no one can drop next to him and not be within an inch of the DDAs. I'd rather have an 85 pt model doing something than a 73 pt model doing nothing. Also with the 10" move the cloaktek has, you can bounce him onto late game objectives once the threats that can get to him are removed and the DDAs either move out or start going down.
I usually wait on my immortals deployments to see what my opponent does. That being the case, deploying the warlord first is irrelevant.
Having the scarabs is by far more valuable to me as they are fast and versatile.
So, whenever I've taken a Sautekh spearhead previously I've always had a Cloak-tek as the HQ (and obviously he's the Warlord for Hyperlogical Strategist), it's the obvious choice as he's the only HQ that has any synergy with the DDAs. I never seriously considered another option till this conversation came up, due to me putting the cheapest possible option in that unfinished list just to see how many points could be available.
Now that it has come up, I think an Overlord with HPS is a much better option for only 2 more points. The Cloak-teks repair ability (like most repair abilities in the game) is crap. It's actually worse than most "Heal D3 wounds" abilities because it replaces living metal. If he begins the turn within 3" of a DDA that has been attacked but not destroyed, it will get 1 extra wound back on average. 1 extra wound often doesn't even makes a difference. It's very unlikely to be the difference between life and death for the DDA, the best you can hope for is that it takes you up a damage bracket.
It is "something", but the cost of that something is that you have a Warlord that dies to a stiff breeze. To suggest that he is safe hiding behind a DDA seems rather optimistic. DDAs are full of holes, and any infantry can see right under them. Anyone bringing snipers will be overjoyed to see such a flimsy warlord with his ass flapping in the breeze, especially one that generates CPs. Any assault units that get to grips with the DDAs will find the Cloak-tek to be a nice cherry on top. His speed does give you the option to grab an objective, but he is presumably then no longer screened by the DDAs (or they would be grabbing it), so his fragility is a liability once again.
The Overlord, by comparison, is a lot harder to kill. While he lacks the ability that might, maybe, have an effect on the game once in a blue moon, he is much more likely to protect your slay the warlord VP, and the bonus CPs- the reason he's in the list in the first place. It will take a lot more sniper fire to bring him down, and he can stand up to a moderate amount of abuse in hand to hand. If someone tries to use a small, fast unit to tag you DDAs in assault (forcing them to move and lose the high power shooting profile), the Overlord can deal with them, or tie them up to stop them doing it again. He doesn't have the speed of the Cloak-tek to grab an objective, but he is much more likely to survive if he has to go out and try.
TLDR: Both the Cloak-tek and the Overlord provide some very minor benefits beyond their primary role of generating CPs. The Overlord however is better at performing this primary role- due to being more likely to survive to do it, whilst also being less of a liability in giving up Slay The Warlord.
I therefore suggest that the oft seen; Cloak-tek + 3x DDA, should be replaced by; Overlord + 3x DDA.
I usually wait on my immortals deployments to see what my opponent does. That being the case, deploying the warlord first is irrelevant.
You're still going to be putting the destroyers in reserve. It will always depend on the game at hand, but generally you should make things in reserve your first drops, rather than deploying things on the board which allows your opponent to make more informed decisions at deployment. If putting those units in reserve costs CPs then you should have your CP refund character on the board first. Anything that the opponent will want to react to in deployment, like fast assault units and main battle tanks (Wraith and DDAs) should be deployed last.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I therefore suggest that the oft seen; Cloak-tek + 3x DDA, should be replaced by; Overlord + 3x DDA.
In a perfect world I'd ideally want to take Imotekh in that spot... but rarely do I ever have a spare 115 points left to upgrade one of my HQs to him...
Perhaps if I were running a Sautekh Battalion, so the Immortals can benefit from him properly...
• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.
Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.
Likes? Sure. Needs? No. Especially when compared to the guy who can give them MWBD.
RP is free, you should take advantage of it. If you run a battalion you need 2 HQs anyway, one cryptek, one overlord.
skoffs wrote: Well, if you've had success with him, cool. (it's certainly possible to build a decent D.Lord, eg. Ghetto Celestine).
But his buff is pretty sub par (especially compared to a regular Lord), and while he does have more attacks, they're only hitting on 3s compared to an Overlord/CCB's 2s, so he's not exactly the unstopable combat powerhouse he once was.
Most of us tend to rather spend the points on things that can better contribute to the battle (eg. more Destroyers... but not heavies. They're not worth it)
A decent destroyer lord cant contribute to the battle ?
• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.
Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.
Likes? Sure. Needs? No. Especially when compared to the guy who can give them MWBD.
RP is free, you should take advantage of it. If you run a battalion you need 2 HQs anyway, one cryptek, one overlord.
skoffs wrote: Well, if you've had success with him, cool. (it's certainly possible to build a decent D.Lord, eg. Ghetto Celestine).
But his buff is pretty sub par (especially compared to a regular Lord), and while he does have more attacks, they're only hitting on 3s compared to an Overlord/CCB's 2s, so he's not exactly the unstopable combat powerhouse he once was.
Most of us tend to rather spend the points on things that can better contribute to the battle (eg. more Destroyers... but not heavies. They're not worth it)
A decent destroyer lord cant contribute to the battle ?
I believe he is more speaking to the character's buff utility. With the reroll 1s to hit, he's nearly as good as an OL. But I find that keeping our HQs cheap seems to be the way to go. Let the army do the heavy lifting with buff utility from characters.
I'm trying to figure out a way in most of my lists to throw a Basic Lord in my Phalanxes, so they'll be fearless, with a 5++, hitting on 2s, coming back on 4s and rerolling 1s to wound
skoffs wrote: • Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.
Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.
Likes? Sure. Needs? No. Especially when compared to the guy who can give them MWBD.
RP is free, you should take advantage of it. If you run a battalion you need 2 HQs anyway, one cryptek, one overlord.
That's just the thing: it's free.
You don't need to pay for it, everyone already has it. Yeah, you could increase it, but it's not really worth the investment on the unit in question (Immortals). They're perfectly capable of fending for themselves in cover. Either that or they get wiped out before they even get a chance to roll for RP (which, if you're playing against an experienced opponent, is more than likely what will happen.)
If we're talking a Battalion that includes three units of Tesla Immortals, the best HQ you can support them with would be two Overlords so you can MWBD all three of them (with Phaeron's Will strat). Granted, if this Battalion includes Destroyers, then throwing in a Cryptek would be worth it, but that's not what the above comments were about. (Alternatively, a single Lord would help all of the above as well, but wouldn't be as recommended.)
skoffs wrote: Well, if you've had success with him, cool. (it's certainly possible to build a decent D.Lord, eg. Ghetto Celestine).
But his buff is pretty sub par (especially compared to a regular Lord), and while he does have more attacks, they're only hitting on 3s compared to an Overlord/CCB's 2s, so he's not exactly the unstopable combat powerhouse he once was.
Most of us tend to rather spend the points on things that can better contribute to the battle (eg. more Destroyers... but not heavies. They're not worth it)
A decent destroyer lord cant contribute to the battle ?
RP is free, you should take advantage of it. If you run a battalion you need 2 HQs anyway, one cryptek, one overlord.
A decent destroyer lord cant contribute to the battle ?
Who's better out of a Cryptek and an Overlord does seem kinda irrelevant when you'll usually be taking both I agree. MWBD is a much more powerful ability than Technomancer though, unless you're taking 20 man Warrior blobs, then I'd say the Cryptek is slightly more important.
I took a Destroyer Lord in several games as the HQ for a Nephrek outrider detachment tagged onto a Sautekh battalion. Any other HQ would be little more than a tax, so I figured I should have one that actually did something. It still makes sense in that scenario, but I was fairly disappointed with him. Necron HQs are just lame in hand to hand. It's not worth the cost of a relic and a WL trait to make them serviceable. I think the Warscythe is kind of a trap. You're not going to be slicing through tanks, or enemy HQs with any reliability. Its better to take the Staff of Light and hunt small MEQ units.
If we're talking a Battalion that includes three units of Tesla Immortals, the best HQ you can support them with would be two Overlords so you can MWBD all three of them (with Phaeron's Will strat).
I'm coming round to this way of thinking, but I think you're being a little too harsh on the Cryptek. If someone really wants to get rid of an Immortal unit they probably will, denying RP, but I've found that people do still chip away at my Immortals when there's nothing better to do. I get use out of the Technomancer ability quite regularly.
edit: Poor Crypteks, they've been taking a hammering for the last page or so lol.
Ordana wrote: Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.
Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).
BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.
Even against T7/T8 3+, a unit of 6 with EP will be putting out almost 15 unsaved wounds on average. Point for point with EP, they are our best AV despite only being S6.
I know I've done the math. But ugh. I really want to have a good experience with them. SOME. DAY. I hope that day will come soon.
Still, you have to keep pumping them with CP. Is it even worth it at that point? I'll take my "wee bit worse" damage with DDA if I don't have to pump it with CP.
Make sure you run the numbers beforehand so that you know if eg 5 destroyers need EP to take down half a LRBT, or if MWBD wil do, at least make sure you know the gist of it. (Im sure you already do), but its worth mentioning.
I'm not saying Crypteks are in and of themselves bad,
I'm saying, in the context that was originally quoted (coming out of Night Scythes with Immortals) they would not be the best choice.
My suggestion of taking Overlords to accompany them instead was just given as a recommendation for the more efficient HQ to pair them with.
You could stick a Cryptek with them, yes. Or a Lord. But the Overlord tends to be the best choice. Not the only choice. Just the most efficient.
skoffs wrote: I'm not saying Crypteks are in and of themselves bad,
I'm saying, in the context that was originally quoted (coming out of Night Scythes with Immortals) they would not be the best choice.
My suggestion of taking Overlords to accompany them instead was just given as a recommendation for the more efficient HQ to pair them with.
You could stick a Cryptek with them, yes. Or a Lord. But the Overlord tends to be the best choice. Not the only choice. Just the most efficient.
I'm also now thinking that, in a teleporting Nephrek Tesla Immortals list, it's best to have the Veil on an overlord, and give the Cryptek a cloak. Previously I was going with a Veil-tek, and a CCB.
The Veil-tek option means that units arriving from reserve will benefit from his aura right away, but it may be more beneficial to have the Overlord in position ready for MWBD the following turn. Also, CCBs are expensive.
Maelstrom808 wrote: The repairtek is pretty easily hidden among the DDAs where no one can drop next to him and not be within an inch of the DDAs. I'd rather have an 85 pt model doing something than a 73 pt model doing nothing. Also with the 10" move the cloaktek has, you can bounce him onto late game objectives once the threats that can get to him are removed and the DDAs either move out or start going down.
I usually wait on my immortals deployments to see what my opponent does. That being the case, deploying the warlord first is irrelevant.
Having the scarabs is by far more valuable to me as they are fast and versatile.
So, whenever I've taken a Sautekh spearhead previously I've always had a Cloak-tek as the HQ (and obviously he's the Warlord for Hyperlogical Strategist), it's the obvious choice as he's the only HQ that has any synergy with the DDAs. I never seriously considered another option till this conversation came up, due to me putting the cheapest possible option in that unfinished list just to see how many points could be available.
Now that it has come up, I think an Overlord with HPS is a much better option for only 2 more points. The Cloak-teks repair ability (like most repair abilities in the game) is crap. It's actually worse than most "Heal D3 wounds" abilities because it replaces living metal. If he begins the turn within 3" of a DDA that has been attacked but not destroyed, it will get 1 extra wound back on average. 1 extra wound often doesn't even makes a difference. It's very unlikely to be the difference between life and death for the DDA, the best you can hope for is that it takes you up a damage bracket.
It is "something", but the cost of that something is that you have a Warlord that dies to a stiff breeze. To suggest that he is safe hiding behind a DDA seems rather optimistic. DDAs are full of holes, and any infantry can see right under them. Anyone bringing snipers will be overjoyed to see such a flimsy warlord with his ass flapping in the breeze, especially one that generates CPs. Any assault units that get to grips with the DDAs will find the Cloak-tek to be a nice cherry on top. His speed does give you the option to grab an objective, but he is presumably then no longer screened by the DDAs (or they would be grabbing it), so his fragility is a liability once again.
The Overlord, by comparison, is a lot harder to kill. While he lacks the ability that might, maybe, have an effect on the game once in a blue moon, he is much more likely to protect your slay the warlord VP, and the bonus CPs- the reason he's in the list in the first place. It will take a lot more sniper fire to bring him down, and he can stand up to a moderate amount of abuse in hand to hand. If someone tries to use a small, fast unit to tag you DDAs in assault (forcing them to move and lose the high power shooting profile), the Overlord can deal with them, or tie them up to stop them doing it again. He doesn't have the speed of the Cloak-tek to grab an objective, but he is much more likely to survive if he has to go out and try.
TLDR: Both the Cloak-tek and the Overlord provide some very minor benefits beyond their primary role of generating CPs. The Overlord however is better at performing this primary role- due to being more likely to survive to do it, whilst also being less of a liability in giving up Slay The Warlord.
I therefore suggest that the oft seen; Cloak-tek + 3x DDA, should be replaced by; Overlord + 3x DDA.
I usually wait on my immortals deployments to see what my opponent does. That being the case, deploying the warlord first is irrelevant.
You're still going to be putting the destroyers in reserve. It will always depend on the game at hand, but generally you should make things in reserve your first drops, rather than deploying things on the board which allows your opponent to make more informed decisions at deployment. If putting those units in reserve costs CPs then you should have your CP refund character on the board first. Anything that the opponent will want to react to in deployment, like fast assault units and main battle tanks (Wraith and DDAs) should be deployed last.
Maybe it's a case of differing local metas. I rarely face snipers and when I do, it's easy enough to stick the cryptek behind a wall where they can't do anything to him. Of far more concern is things like coldstar commanders packing fusion, in which case the overlord is almost as dead as the cryptek. Of the 30 or so games I've played with them, I think I've had a DDA assaulted once, maybe twice. I screen them well enough that foot sloggers simply aren't going to get to them, and most things that can go over the screens either don't want to assault, or are easily dealt with by sixty flayer shots. Granted, I have yet to face a custodes list, but I think they are still quite managable.
If I was constantly losing my cryptek, I would agree with you, but I'm not. I also play ITC missions primarily so there is less incentive to go after the warlord unless they take the Old School secondaries which is not ideal.
As far as deployment, I get that line of thinking, and that is how I used to approach it, but I've found a few things after running this list for the last month or two:
1) I usually have fewer drops than my opponent, so they are able to keep their key units back until I'm done deploying anyway.
2) My DDAs are going down where they have the best LOS to the rest of the board, period. I know this, my opponent (usually) knows this. With the footprint they have, this usually only leaves one, maybe two possible locations for them so there is little point in trying to be clever about placing them. Likewise, I WANT them to shoot at the wraiths, which also have the mobility to pretty much get wherever I want them in a couple of turns, so i'm not trying to hide them. Often by deploying these units first, I'm forcing my opponent into deploying where I want them, rather than reacting to what they want to do.
3) Any player worth his/her salt will respect what the immortals can do and not knowing whether or not I'm deepstriking with them is a huge question mark. This means they have to prepare for both possibilities as they place units. This means possible mistakes or spreading themselves too thin. Remember, you don't HAVE to deepstrike them, and it's often more advantageous to deploy them on the board. If you simply throw them into reserves as the first few drops, you are now locked into this, and can miss opportunities.
skoffs wrote: I'm not saying Crypteks are in and of themselves bad,
I'm saying, in the context that was originally quoted (coming out of Night Scythes with Immortals) they would not be the best choice.
My suggestion of taking Overlords to accompany them instead was just given as a recommendation for the more efficient HQ to pair them with.
You could stick a Cryptek with them, yes. Or a Lord. But the Overlord tends to be the best choice. Not the only choice. Just the most efficient.
I'm also now thinking that, in a teleporting Nephrek Tesla Immortals list, it's best to have the Veil on an overlord, and give the Cryptek a cloak. Previously I was going with a Veil-tek, and a CCB.
The Veil-tek option means that units arriving from reserve will benefit from his aura right away, but it may be more beneficial to have the Overlord in position ready for MWBD the following turn. Also, CCBs are expensive.
Nah, giving a Cryptek the Veil still isn't a bad idea if he's a Chrono carrier. That way he can jump up and the guys arriving turn 2 can benefit from his 5++.
I'm thinking about having a Chrono-tek Veil up 6 Destroyers turn 1, use Extermination Protocols, then having another 6 arrive turn 2 within his radius and using EP again... my issue is trying to figure out what to support the first group with (Wraiths? Tomb Blades?)
3) Any player worth his/her salt will respect what the immortals can do and not knowing whether or not I'm deepstriking with them is a huge question mark. This means they have to prepare for both possibilities as they place units. This means possible mistakes or spreading themselves too thin. Remember, you don't HAVE to deepstrike them, and it's often more advantageous to deploy them on the board. If you simply throw them into reserves as the first few drops, you are now locked into this, and can miss opportunities.
While I find your other points regarding deployment somewhat questionable, this does make sense. Deepstriking Destroyers is almost always the best choice, but the Immortals can go either way, and not knowing could throw the opponent off as they try to plan for both possibilities.
Of far more concern is things like coldstar commanders packing fusion, in which case the overlord is almost as dead as the cryptek
Actually, the Coldstar has about a 50/50 chance of popping the Overlord, whereas the Cryptek dies 3 times over. The difference in durability is kinda massive. If I'm the Tau player, 50/50 is pretty off putting. How often is the repair ability making a difference for you?
Granted, I have yet to face a custodes list, but I think they are still quite managable.
I wouldn't be so sure, they're rather infuriating. Mostly because the game is often decided by whether or not they pass their invuls. You got lucky on your 4++? guess I'm dead then. I've found self destructing scarabs very useful for tidying up Bike captains who didn't quite die when they were supposed to.
Doctoralex wrote: So I know Mephrit isn't ideal for Destroyers, but what do you think of Talent for Annihilation on them? Is it overkill or...?
With only Extermination protocols you are getting 8.33 wounds on average with 6 destroyers to a hive tyrant. If the Hive Tyrant has the -1 to hit relic or shroud it drops to 6.67
With talent for annihilation and extermination protocols you are looking at 10.86 wounds on average to a Hive Tyrant with a sq of 6 Destroyers.
With methodical destruction and extermination protocols you are looking at 11.11 wounds to a Hive Tyrant with a sq of 6.
With no strategems and a 6 man sq of destroyers just using the base reroll 1's for the unit they are doing 4.67 to HIve Tyrant or 3.5 with -1 relic
A station DDA high power does 2.72 wounds to a Hive Tyrant, or 2.04 if it has -1 to hit buff.
So if you use your Stratgems and focus fire, you should be able to drop a Flyrant in 1 round if you are running 2 destroyer squads and 1 doomsday ark at a minimum.
Use the gauss flayers and your tesla immortals to focus down the Genestealers.
Send your scarabs into his Hive Guard. Use mortal wound suicide stratagem on them, or just tie them up in combat.
Nah, giving a Cryptek the Veil still isn't a bad idea if he's a Chrono carrier. That way he can jump up and the guys arriving turn 2 can benefit from his 5++.
I'm thinking about having a Chrono-tek Veil up 6 Destroyers turn 1, use Extermination Protocols, then having another 6 arrive turn 2 within his radius and using EP again... my issue is trying to figure out what to support the first group with (Wraiths? Tomb Blades?)
The Tomb blades will add more firepower, but not do much to protect the Destroyers, other than possibly eliminating threats.
The Wraith probably won't kill anything turn 1, but may deter people from getting close to the Destroyers.
I'm surprised chronoteks in a Nephrek outrider isn't more popular. The 5++ and 50% better RP adds a lot to a couple of 300 pt squads. Plus as Nephrek, he can just run alongside the destroyers and keep up as long as they don't advance too. I'd run it as Nephrek not only for the chronotek, but also for the one squad of wraith's 20-30" charge.
I took T Vault, 19 x warriors, 6 x wraith, 6 x destroyers, 9 x tomb blades, 2 x 9 scarabs, Cryptek.
Vault did nothing really, did something like 10W total during 2 rounds before it got destroyed.
Destroyers in 1 turn annihilated flyer and then died.
Tomb blades tanked some shoots and didn't do much.
This wounding on 2s from Deathwatch is so powerful.
Wraith killed 6-7 dudes, librarian and died. Barely got their points back.
So conclusion:
1. Destroyers can destroy and die next turn.
2. Tomb blades are okay.
3. Warriors did not do much.
4. Vault did not work
So really i do not know how to make Necrons competitive.
Maybe 3x 6 Destroyers, 3 x 9 Tomb Blades, D Lord, Cryptek?
1. Gotta remove the targets that will easily kill your destroyers when they drop in, and then they have a chance of surviving. Remember, when they drop, they can be 24 inches away.
2. Tomb Blades are very good. How did you run yours?
3. Warriors are generally outshined by Immortals vs Marines.
4. I don't see a need for a vault in really...any list in my mind. People say running 3 of them is good...but I don't buy it.
Deathwatch are one of those armies you need to cause casualties to quickly. Otherwise they deal a boatload of damage back to you in kind.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah if you want a Destroyer Lord you want him as Ghetto Celestine. For that purpose though? I haven't been disappointed at all.
Maybe at lower point games that might be okay, but at higher point games where you're going to have a lot of CP I feel like not taking the Strategist WLT is like playing with a handicap.
Not sure how the Mephrit CCB Sniper fits in (whether worth taking in low or high point games).
I prefer to run TB with Practice Casters so S6 AP0. Wounding on 2s T3 - cultists, guard, horrors and other meat shields. It's only 24pts 2W 3 shots -1 to hit 12' move. Much better than warriors.
Fully upgraded with gauss imho they're too expensive :(
I don't like Tesla immortals. With AP0 and S5 i have hard time killing even SM in cover. And all meta is around "- to hit" so no exploading 6s.
Msolve wrote: If I take a unit of 20 warriors can I purchase a Ghost Ark for them as a dedicated transport even though they cannot fit in it?
No, you cant. You must purchase two ghost arks, to fit all in.
...
Yes, you can take a Ghost Ark even if your unit of Warriors is over 10 models.
Additionally, you cannot split a unit to stick half of it into a Ghost Ark.
Msolve wrote: If I take a unit of 20 warriors can I purchase a Ghost Ark for them as a dedicated transport even though they cannot fit in it?
No, you cant. You must purchase two ghost arks, to fit all in.
...
Yes, you can take a Ghost Ark even if your unit of Warriors is over 10 models.
Additionally, you cannot split a unit to stick half of it into a Ghost Ark.
Msolve wrote: If I take a unit of 20 warriors can I purchase a Ghost Ark for them as a dedicated transport even though they cannot fit in it?
No, you cant. You must purchase two ghost arks, to fit all in.
...
Yes, you can take a Ghost Ark even if your unit of Warriors is over 10 models.
Additionally, you cannot split a unit to stick half of it into a Ghost Ark.
Technically, you can even buy a ghost ark for your monolith. Unless theyve FAQed that?
While I find your other points regarding deployment somewhat questionable, this does make sense. Deepstriking Destroyers is almost always the best choice, but the Immortals can go either way, and not knowing could throw the opponent off as they try to plan for both possibilities.
Well, at this point we'll just have to chalk it up to different playstyles. I've been running the list for awhile and know what works for me.
Actually, the Coldstar has about a 50/50 chance of popping the Overlord, whereas the Cryptek dies 3 times over. The difference in durability is kinda massive. If I'm the Tau player, 50/50 is pretty off putting. How often is the repair ability making a difference for you?
50/50 is as good as dead as far as my dice are concerned The repair ability has not saved a DDA from dying, but it has saved me CPs by keeping it on the top damage tier.
I wouldn't be so sure, they're rather infuriating. Mostly because the game is often decided by whether or not they pass their invuls. You got lucky on your 4++? guess I'm dead then. I've found self destructing scarabs very useful for tidying up Bike captains who didn't quite die when they were supposed to.
That's like facing a triple riptide or double riptide + xv109 list with tons of drone support. If they tank saves, you win. If not, you better hope you can win by playing the mission.
My list for competitive play focuses on a Silvertide hybrid
My list:
Spoiler:
Battalion- Nephrekh
Szeras
Lord (veil, Voidblade)
2x20 Warriors
5 Immortals
Nightbringer
6 Destroyers
9 Tomb Blades (Tesla)
6 Scarabs
D Ark
2 Heavy Destroyers
*Nightbringer is a great MW generator is escorted by the Blades and deters aggressive armies like Dark Eldar and Nids. I like to Castle up to provide all of the auto-pass Morale/Technomancer buffs. What do you think?
v0iddrgn wrote: My list for competitive play focuses on a Silvertide hybrid
My list:
Spoiler:
Battalion- Nephrekh
Szeras
Lord (veil, Voidblade)
2x20 Warriors
5 Immortals
Nightbringer
6 Destroyers
9 Tomb Blades (Tesla)
6 Scarabs
D Ark
2 Heavy Destroyers
*Nightbringer is a great MW generator is escorted by the Blades and deters aggressive armies like Dark Eldar and Nids. I like to Castle up to provide all of the auto-pass Morale/Technomancer buffs. What do you think?
Get rid of those two Heavies and drop some Warriors/Scarabs to free up enough points for another DDA (it's the only vehicle in your list. The chances of it surviving first turn are very slim)
v0iddrgn wrote: My list for competitive play focuses on a Silvertide hybrid
My list:
Spoiler:
Battalion- Nephrekh
Szeras
Lord (veil, Voidblade)
2x20 Warriors
5 Immortals
Nightbringer
6 Destroyers
9 Tomb Blades (Tesla)
6 Scarabs
D Ark
2 Heavy Destroyers
*Nightbringer is a great MW generator is escorted by the Blades and deters aggressive armies like Dark Eldar and Nids. I like to Castle up to provide all of the auto-pass Morale/Technomancer buffs. What do you think?
Get rid of those two Heavies and drop some Warriors/Scarabs to free up enough points for another DDA (it's the only vehicle in your list. The chances of it surviving first turn are very slim)
Redundancy is key in every list. A single unit standing out like that lone DDA makes it a prime target.
Tesseract Vault(companion cube paint job) [25 PL, 496pts]:
Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire,
Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault,
Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars,
Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
Tesseract Vault(silver paint job) [25 PL, 496pts]:
Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault,
Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars,
Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
Tesseract Vault(green paint job) [25 PL, 496pts]:
Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor,
Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire,
Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars,
Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt
Tied game one against blood angel with guard. Played objectives and spammed mortal wounds. My list performed well but a shadow sword is just going to delete a vault a turn. The CP regeneration here us just ridiculous. Ended as 17-17 tie at end of round 3
Lost game 2 vs blood angel with guard again. No shadow sword thulis time but more leeman russ and mortar/heavy weapons teams made up for it. I feel i could of won this one but i rolled really really poorly for both tesla and ctan powers. If that had been even average i believe id of won. Final score was 15-20. blood angel jet pack guys with 8 attacks are brutal. Again just ridiculous cp regeneration.
Won round three vs deathguard. Marines,cultists, termies, demon prince and a bloat drone. With a bunch of character support. This was a blow out for my side. The frontal assault deployment let me be in his face turn one even without deceiver. Nothing in his list likes wortal wounds. I had him tabled by the furst half of turn three. Final score was 33-4.
I made a couple of placememr mistakes with the crypteks and i forgot strategems a couple twice. Vaults performed very well but the boat loads of anti tank multiwound shots from guard were very tough to weather. Cloaktek healing never mattered even once. The abyssal staff is absolutely awesome. Im going to be fitting it into more lists from.now on.
Tesseract Vault(companion cube paint job) [25 PL, 496pts]:
Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire,
Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault,
Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars,
Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
Tesseract Vault(silver paint job) [25 PL, 496pts]:
Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault,
Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars,
Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow
Tesseract Vault(green paint job) [25 PL, 496pts]:
Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor,
Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire,
Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars,
Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt
Tied game one against blood angel with guard. Played objectives and spammed mortal wounds. My list performed well but a shadow sword is just going to delete a vault a turn. The CP regeneration here us just ridiculous. Ended as 17-17 tie at end of round 3
Lost game 2 vs blood angel with guard again. No shadow sword thulis time but more leeman russ and mortar/heavy weapons teams made up for it. I feel i could of won this one but i rolled really really poorly for both tesla and ctan powers. If that had been even average i believe id of won. Final score was 15-20. blood angel jet pack guys with 8 attacks are brutal. Again just ridiculous cp regeneration.
Won round three vs deathguard. Marines,cultists, termies, demon prince and a bloat drone. With a bunch of character support. This was a blow out for my side. The frontal assault deployment let me be in his face turn one even without deceiver. Nothing in his list likes wortal wounds. I had him tabled by the furst half of turn three. Final score was 33-4.
I made a couple of placememr mistakes with the crypteks and i forgot strategems a couple twice. Vaults performed very well but the boat loads of anti tank multiwound shots from guard were very tough to weather. Cloaktek healing never mattered even once. The abyssal staff is absolutely awesome. Im going to be fitting it into more lists from.now on.
I'm impressed you could go tied against something that deleted a vault a turn
Yes he was rolling for disgustingly resilient. But having essentially a 5+ save as his only protection doesnt help a ton. And yeah i was impressed too. He ignored my other stuff which was letting me score. If hed spared some fire fir scarabs or went after objectived himself hed probably had won.
The Destroyer Lord will probably go with the Wraiths, relying on his casket to stay alive. The Overlords will each stick with one of the Tesla Immortal units to buff them.
I know the Destroyer Lord is bad, but he's my favourite model so I still want to use him.
Anyway, I'm looking for recommendations for which Dynasty (or Dynasties) to use in this list, and for whether I should take any additional relics or such.
But any thoughts on the list in general would be much appreciated, as I'm struggling to come up with any lists that appeal to me.
You dont need two overlords, get a lord or cryptek for the second one. One overlord can buff both immortal units with the phaerons will stratagem for 1CP. Cryptek will help reanimate them, lord will let them re-roll wound rolls of 1. The Dlord isnt bad. Two units of 4 destroyers arent good, its better to max one unit, makes it harder to wipe them out, and you can roll RP for them. Use the saved points on scarabs. Buffed immortals should be sautekh, for methodical destruction. Wraiths and Dlord can be novokh or nephrekh, either get fast into melee, or re-roll failed hit rolls.
You dont need two overlords, get a lord or cryptek for the second one. One overlord can buff both immortal units with the phaerons will stratagem for 1CP. Cryptek will help reanimate them, lord will let them re-roll wound rolls of 1. The Dlord isnt bad. Two units of 4 destroyers arent good, its better to max one unit, makes it harder to wipe them out, and you can roll RP for them. Use the saved points on scarabs. Buffed immortals should be sautekh, for methodical destruction. Wraiths and Dlord can be novokh or nephrekh, either get fast into melee, or re-roll failed hit rolls.
Thanks.
Does this look better?
Spoiler:
Sautekh Battalion (+5CP) Overlord w/ Staff of Light (Warlord: Hyperlogical Strategist)
Lord w/ Staff of Light
10 Immortals w/ Tesla
10 Immortals w/ Tesla
10 Immortals w/ Guass
... I don't understand. It's the first thing posted in this thread, in big bold colored font so it will stand out so no one will miss it.
And it keeps getting repeated every few pages.
But it
just
keeps
happening.
Can everyone please be considerate and spoiler your lists when you post them to the tactics forum?
(I mean, this isn't even the right section to get list critique in)
... I don't understand. It's the first thing posted in this thread, in big bold colored font so it will stand out so no one will miss it.
And it keeps getting repeated every few pages.
But it
just
keeps
happening.
Can everyone please be considerate and spoiler your lists when you post them to the tactics forum?
(I mean, this isn't even the right section to get list critique in)
Sorry for not reading from page 1 in a ~125-page thread.
I have a dilemma, I’m trying to run a bataillon but all the troops I have are 20 warriors and 10 Tesla Immortals. I’m wondering if if I should play one 20 warrior squad with two 5 immortal squads or one 10 immortal squad with two 10 warrior squad. What’s your takes on this?
I've had a lot of success with mephrit. I really think people are sleeping on this dynasty. I am undefeated with mephrit except for one draw. The +1 ap at half range really deters close combat units especially when they know that closer combat is where we are not as strong. Most of my lists are overlord +cryptek as HQ. Always have the nightbringer. Then usually 2 20 warriors and a 10 man immortal squad. I've also taken a single DDA. t either is able to destroy a vehicle a turn or it takes all the firepower the first turn. I then mix either wraiths or destroyers. I just stalk forward into objectives. Veil of darkness for If things go bad or I need to capture an objective across the board.
My bbn last 2 games were 3000 points. My opponent had lists that were heavily armoured. 3 flyers, a landraider, an imperial knight. By the end of the 4th all the vehicles were gone as being too close with flyers gave me the +1 ap. 60 warriors hitting on 3s, even wounding on 5s at -2 ap Were killing a flyer a turn.
Just thought I'd share this. The mission was either 4 or 5 on maelstrom so I had to be weary of objectives still.
I've had a lot of success with mephrit. I really think people are sleeping on this dynasty. I am undefeated with mephrit except for one draw. The +1 ap at half range really deters close combat units especially when they know that closer combat is where we are not as strong. Most of my lists are overlord +cryptek as HQ. Always have the nightbringer. Then usually 2 20 warriors and a 10 man immortal squad. I've also taken a single DDA. t either is able to destroy a vehicle a turn or it takes all the firepower the first turn. I then mix either wraiths or destroyers. I just stalk forward into objectives. Veil of darkness for If things go bad or I need to capture an objective across the board.
My bbn last 2 games were 3000 points. My opponent had lists that were heavily armoured. 3 flyers, a landraider, an imperial knight. By the end of the 4th all the vehicles were gone as being too close with flyers gave me the +1 ap. 60 warriors hitting on 3s, even wounding on 5s at -2 ap Were killing a flyer a turn.
Just thought I'd share this. The mission was either 4 or 5 on maelstrom so I had to be weary of objectives still.
I think you're right. Mephrit isn't the end all be all, but it's a good option if you play to its strengths.
Definitely need to be aggressive
Had a break from 8th for a couple of months and then started playing with the 8th edition codex, here are some lists, with brief battle reports and some thoughts on the individual games and overall thoughts on Necrons. My secondary play group doesn't allow more than two of the same unit unless it is a troops unit, I try to follow this rule in most of my games to avoid stale spammy armies.
Overlord, Lord, Cryptek (cloak), 3x10 Tesla Immortals. 6 Destroyers, 3 Obelisks. Everything was Mephrit. Might not be entirely what I brought.
I hadn't read the new beta rules, which we decided to play with. I played on a heavily populated board against a Zerker spam list. The +1 to wound stratagem is just hax, it's stupid that an Obelisk gets hacked to death so easily, they seem really weak. I even cheated and deep striked within 12" with the two Obelisks that were allowed to DS (why is it >12" again?). I rolled really badly and failed to blow up his Rhinos with my Destroyers so I spent all my Tesla on Rhinos instead of Zerkers. Never take more than one Obelisk, one might be good in rare circumstances, but never three.
Szeras WL (6" Fearless), Lord (sword/veil), Anrakyr, 2x20 Warriors, 10 Immortals (tesla), 10 Praetorians, 6 Scarabs, 7 Scarabs, 6 Destroyers, 3 Heavy Destroyers. Everything was Mephrit.
I lost the game against a Warrior based Nid force, I threw away my Praetorians killing only about 200 pts worth of stuff and the board was stupidly heavily populated so I couldn't field half my Warriors at the front and they basically just shielded against backfield Deep Strikes. My Destroyers got popped by his long range shooting after doing next to nothing. Szeras was pretty cool, I'm warming up to him because few of my opponents are using AP shooting ATM, but as soon as that changes he's not worth it compared to a Chronometron Cryptek I feel like. The list lacked more gauss or multi-damage melee to deal with a list like the one I faced.
I'm going to make the Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Anrakyr and the two units of Scarabs Nephrekh if I use the list again, but I mostly think it was a case of not playing well and being on an unfavourable map. I'll add that I wanted to make a list including Anrakyr, Szeras and at least one unit of Praetorians. I might switch out the Heavy Destroyers for a DDA, but not on the boards I'm playing on ATM as the mobility is just more important and I'm not really sold on Sautekh DDAs.
Cryptek (cloak) WL (+3" abilities), Lord (hyperphase sword/res orb), Overlord (scythe/the orb of eternity), 2x6 Destroyers, 2x3 Scarabs, 7 Tomb Blades (particle), 3 Tomb Blades (particles), 2x3 Heavy Destroyers. Everything was Nihilakh.
Played against the Zerker spam list on another stupidly overpopulated board (16 buildings I think). My opponent got to have most of the objectives on his side of the board. I wasn't too concerned about charges against my Destroyers because I had my res-orbs, I hadn't considered the possibility that they'd be entirely destroyed in a turn. Lost on objectives (6-5-4-3-2-1 objective game), I'd call it a massacre but I did get to pop some Zerkers so it was fun enough. This was mostly a test to see how well a troops-less list could do. I'm still a big fan of Tesla Immortals so I don't think I'll go this route. The bikes are stupidly cheap compared to index, but I'm not sure if I want to assemble any more of these bastards and the +5 CP is a must IMHO.
Overlord (voidscythe), Overlord (voidscythe), CCB (4+ invul relic, -1 to hit WL trait), Lord (scythe), Cryptek (cloak + veil), 6x10 Immortals (tesla), 6 Destroyers, 2x5 Scarabs. Everything was Nephrekh.
I played against a list with a bunch of Thousand Sons characters, Magnus and a blob of Plaguebearers backed by a Daemon Prince giving them -1 to hit. We played with the ITC rules for ruins, which meant I lost out on some shooting because I still wasn't used to the rules. The -2 to hit on the plaguebearers was a death sentence for my army and I was forced into a corner to avoid CC so he got a bunch of objectives. Destroyers deep striked turn 1 and managed an impressive 0 wounds against Magnus (-1 to hit 3+ invul). He misplayed Magnus and was fairly unlucky with his psychic powers so I did manage to kill more than he did, but a board wipe was impossible because he had some Nurglings hiding in his backline.
I don't really like Nephrekh on my Immortals, it rarely came into play and in case of Marines I would really want Mephrit. I think this list does well against a number of things, but if you get first turn you can't really touch Rhinos. I'd probably replace a couple of tesla immortal units with gauss immortal units. Not sold on the voidscythes, I'm leaning towards them being a waste of points ATM.
Anrakyr, Cryptek (chronometron + veil), 10 Immortals (tesla), 2x10 Immortals (gauss), 6 Destroyers. These were Nephrekh. Kutlakh, 2x10 Lychguard (warscythes) 3x3 Scarabs. Maynarkh but I used the translocation beams rules from Nephrekh, which I'm pretty sure I can do? I don't think you can use the Stratagem though?
Thought I'd get more use out of the highly populated boards that my opponents seem to be using ATM. Played on a more reasonably populated board but my opponent was using a big blob of Horrors to shield his Thousand Sons and Daemon characters as they advanced, backed up by a couple Rhinos with Berzerkers so terrain was mostly inconsequential, except my Immortals didn't have anywhere to get cover against his Horrors.
I threw all my melee units forward turn 1 in response to his advance, thinking I'd blow through his horror blob with my shooting and then charge the characters. I failed to blow through the Horrors, was forced to charge the Horrors with my melee units. Then all my melee units got obliterated in his next turn. I managed to kill a Tzeentch Daemon Prince with 3 Lychguard with the Counter Attack Stratagem and my Destroyers Deep Striked and killed a bunch of things. I lost 19/32 on ITC objectives after my opponent wiped me. I just didn't have the firepower to deal with a big blob of Horrors and the objectives favoured a more offensive force.
I'd change my list so everything is Maynarkh (Nephrekh) and replace the gauss Immortals with Tesla Immortals so I'm more prepared for unarmoured foes, I was just really tired of those -1/-2 to hit from my previous opponent.
The one thing I've learned is that Destroyers and Berzerkers are good. Who knew? I'm going to mess around a bit more with Kutlakh to see if Novokh works better.
I'm in two minds about playing on more populated boards, my problem is that my secondary play group doesn't have much LOS-blocking terrain and instead uses area terrain that grants cover. In one you want melee and short ranged units and AP isn't as important, in the other you want more long-ranged AP firepower. Melee units don't really get a fair chance on the latter set-up, but I'm forced to play on these boards sometimes so it feels very weird to play on boards with 10+ big LOS-blocking terrain pieces when I play with 2-6 in the latter group. The latter group also has access to fewer armies so I can build lists accordingly, but in the former group I'm very much rolling the dice to find out what I'm playing.
Those were my thoughts on my games with the 8th edition Necron codex, not so good compared to my index adventures which startes with a similar winning streak, but I feel that's mostly because I'm playing against players who haven't taken a break, the Necron codex was really discouraging because it failed to rectify Reanimation Protocols in some way and brought only terribly mediocre dynasty protocols and the Monolith and Night Scythe Stratagems were made useless by the beta rules. But I'm back to playing again and things aren't so bad, at least we have Destroyers and I still haven't experimented with the new Tesseract Vault or Transcendent C'tan so I have some good stuff to look forward to.
You dont need two overlords, get a lord or cryptek for the second one. One overlord can buff both immortal units with the phaerons will stratagem for 1CP. Cryptek will help reanimate them, lord will let them re-roll wound rolls of 1. The Dlord isnt bad. Two units of 4 destroyers arent good, its better to max one unit, makes it harder to wipe them out, and you can roll RP for them. Use the saved points on scarabs. Buffed immortals should be sautekh, for methodical destruction. Wraiths and Dlord can be novokh or nephrekh, either get fast into melee, or re-roll failed hit rolls.
Thanks.
Does this look better?
Spoiler:
Sautekh Battalion (+5CP) Overlord w/ Staff of Light (Warlord: Hyperlogical Strategist)
Lord w/ Staff of Light
10 Immortals w/ Tesla
10 Immortals w/ Tesla
10 Immortals w/ Guass
Definitely, Lord's are better than Crypteks for Immortals in many circumstances so that's a good choice. Taking a big unit of destroyers is a good idea to make use of the stratagem, because the stratagem is so good I'm not sure if the Destroyer Lord is worth it, so I'd consider a CCB to get +1 to hit instead. I'm not too sure about the love for hyperlogical strategist, maybe try Mephrit and Immortal Pride as well or just an entire Nephrekh list if you like the CCB better than your DLord, then your Destroyers can benefit from your regular Lord instead and your CCB can buff your Immortals.
Definitely, Lord's are better than Crypteks for Immortals in many circumstances so that's a good choice. Taking a big unit of destroyers is a good idea to make use of the stratagem, because the stratagem is so good I'm not sure if the Destroyer Lord is worth it, so I'd consider a CCB to get +1 to hit instead.
I know the D. Lord isn't good, but he's my favourite model so I'd like to use him anyway.
However, if you think there's a better way of using him, I'm open to any suggestions.
vict0988 wrote: I'm not too sure about the love for hyperlogical strategist, maybe try Mephrit and Immortal Pride as well or just an entire Nephrekh list if you like the CCB better than your DLord, then your Destroyers can benefit from your regular Lord instead and your CCB can buff your Immortals.
That's interesting. I'd thought that the Warlord traits that regenerated CP were generally the best.
Given that I'll be keeping the D. Lord, would you recommend Mephrit or Nephrekh for the Battalion?
Also, do you think Nephrekh is actualy the right choice for the outrider? I was torn between it and Novokh.
I'm talking at least 5x9 Scarabs send straight towards the enemy.
I mean it costs nearly 600 points (excluding the damn tax HQ...) but it is 135 wounds to chew through. Either with Nephrekh for speed or Novokh for increased kill potential. It could be a good distraction for either a Silver Tide that is Deceiv'd up the board or our Wraiths/Destroyers.
It is better, but there is still some room for improvement. If you make the destroyers sautekh they can still shoot their guns after advancing (with -1 to hit), because heavy turns into assault. Nephrekh lets them advance 6", but they cant shoot.
There is a stratagem which lets you do RP for wraiths. If you use one unit with 6 models its harder to wipe them out, you can use the strat to reanimate them.
That's interesting. I'd thought that the Warlord traits that regenerated CP were generally the best.
Given that I'll be keeping the D. Lord, would you recommend Mephrit or Nephrekh for the Battalion?
Mephrit cant use methodical destruction, its sautekh only. Nephrekh lets you deepstrike INFANTRY with a strat, which isnt bad either. With the veil of darkness you can deepstrike a hq unit and another INFANTRY unit. Mephrit can use talent for annihilation, which isnt bad, but not as good as methodical destruction, IMHO. You have lots of options, i dont think there is one which is the best.
Doctoralex wrote: So has anyone tried an actual SWARM of scarabs?
I'm talking at least 5x9 Scarabs
Most people are playing the beta rules (in anticipation of competitive games that will probably be running them) so the most we can get is 3x9.
Still ain't bad, though. Will seriously gum up massive sections of the table if you let them.
Ok noob on the site I am sure this has been gone over but my eyes are hurting looking
Through the forum for warriors vs Immortals from what I gather Tesla Immortals with
As much MWBD that can be thrown at them what I am not sure of is that I play against
Space Marines mostly imperial fist Raven Guard Space Wolves loving the 24” S5 volume
Just not sure it’s enough against Marines in cover just looking for people’s experiences
And tactics dynasty etc
If I remember my numbers correctly gauss Immortals will out perform tesla against marines IF you get within rapid fire range. It's I think the only instance where they are better. Also don't forget the Solar Pulse strategem. 1cp removes the cover bonus for a unit.
Maelstrom808 wrote: If I remember my numbers correctly gauss Immortals will out perform tesla against marines IF you get within rapid fire range. It's I think the only instance where they are better. Also don't forget the Solar Pulse strategem. 1cp removes the cover bonus for a unit.
Or, if Marines in cover are giving you a headache, you could go crazy and load up some Gauss Tomb Blades with Scopes (both getting you to within RF distance quickly and denying their cover. Make them Mephrit and they should be deleting MEQ guys left and right with no worries about getting tied up in combat because they've got fly so can just fall back and shoot).
Maelstrom808 wrote: If I remember my numbers correctly gauss Immortals will out perform tesla against marines IF you get within rapid fire range. It's I think the only instance where they are better. Also don't forget the Solar Pulse strategem. 1cp removes the cover bonus for a unit.
Didn't Mephrit Tesla beat Mephrit Gauss at rapid-fire range?
Maelstrom808 wrote: If I remember my numbers correctly gauss Immortals will out perform tesla against marines IF you get within rapid fire range. It's I think the only instance where they are better. Also don't forget the Solar Pulse strategem. 1cp removes the cover bonus for a unit.
Or, if Marines in cover are giving you a headache, you could go crazy and load up some Gauss Tomb Blades with Scopes (both getting you to within RF distance quickly and denying their cover. Make them Mephrit and they should be deleting MEQ guys left and right with no worries about getting tied up in combat because they've got fly so can just fall back and shoot).
Tomb blades would certainly do the trick
Doctoralex wrote:
Didn't Mephrit Tesla beat Mephrit Gauss at rapid-fire range?
It's possible, I was referring to non-mephrit. It's easy enough to check the numbers at dice-hammer.com. I just don't have time right now
It is better, but there is still some room for improvement. If you make the destroyers sautekh they can still shoot their guns after advancing (with -1 to hit), because heavy turns into assault. Nephrekh lets them advance 6", but they cant shoot.
Well, I could move them into the Battalion and make that Sautekh.
There is a stratagem which lets you do RP for wraiths. If you use one unit with 6 models its harder to wipe them out, you can use the strat to reanimate them.
I don't mind making the Wraiths into a single squad (well, alright, I do mind because I hate using mex-sized squads, but it's something I tolerate with Necrons ), but if I do that I won't be able to move the Destroyers into the Sautekh Battalion.
He is good, you wont find another character in the game that can do the same he can do for the points.
A fast melee unit with relatively poor WS who is only able to buff specific units of ranged infantry? Yeah, I imagine there aren't too many of those around.
Mephrit cant use methodical destruction, its sautekh only. Nephrekh lets you deepstrike INFANTRY with a strat, which isnt bad either. With the veil of darkness you can deepstrike a hq unit and another INFANTRY unit. Mephrit can use talent for annihilation, which isnt bad, but not as good as methodical destruction, IMHO. You have lots of options, i dont think there is one which is the best.
Fair enough. I'll probably take the Veil on the Lord or Overlord, regardless of which Dynasty I end up using.
You have to decide what you want, both are good. Either get fast into melee, or re-roll failed hit rolls.
I know I have to make the final decision, but since I've had no experience with either of them (I haven't had a game with Necrons since the codex came out), I thought it would be worth seeing what other Necron players think of the two and whether one seems better for the units I'm using.
It is better, but there is still some room for improvement. If you make the destroyers sautekh they can still shoot their guns after advancing (with -1 to hit), because heavy turns into assault. Nephrekh lets them advance 6", but they cant shoot.
Well, I could move them into the Battalion and make that Sautekh.
There is a stratagem which lets you do RP for wraiths. If you use one unit with 6 models its harder to wipe them out, you can use the strat to reanimate them.
I don't mind making the Wraiths into a single squad (well, alright, I do mind because I hate using mex-sized squads, but it's something I tolerate with Necrons ), but if I do that I won't be able to move the Destroyers into the Sautekh Battalion.
He is good, you wont find another character in the game that can do the same he can do for the points.
A fast melee unit with relatively poor WS who is only able to buff specific units of ranged infantry? Yeah, I imagine there aren't too many of those around.
Mephrit cant use methodical destruction, its sautekh only. Nephrekh lets you deepstrike INFANTRY with a strat, which isnt bad either. With the veil of darkness you can deepstrike a hq unit and another INFANTRY unit. Mephrit can use talent for annihilation, which isnt bad, but not as good as methodical destruction, IMHO. You have lots of options, i dont think there is one which is the best.
Fair enough. I'll probably take the Veil on the Lord or Overlord, regardless of which Dynasty I end up using.
You have to decide what you want, both are good. Either get fast into melee, or re-roll failed hit rolls.
I know I have to make the final decision, but since I've had no experience with either of them (I haven't had a game with Necrons since the codex came out), I thought it would be worth seeing what other Necron players think of the two and whether one seems better for the units I'm using.
The Destroyer Lord actually hits more often than the Overlord, but the Destroyer Lords job isn't to buff anything or kill anything. His job is to not die and the things up.
A fast melee unit with relatively poor WS who is only able to buff specific units of ranged infantry? Yeah, I imagine there aren't too many of those around.
His WS is the second best there is, re-rolling 1s, which is above average. If thats relatively poor to you, your standards must be pretty high. Anything lower than WS2+ is a no go for you then ?
Please show me a HQ unit which has 10" move, can fly, has T6 W6 A4, 3+, 4++, can rise from the dead twice, can regenerate D3 wounds at the start of each players turn, gets -1 to hit, or reduces damage by 1, for ~130 pts.
Hits on 2s, rerolling, at S6, rerolling wounds on the charge, 14" move, universal -1 to hit if Warlord or 5+ FNP, can gain an extra -1 against shooting, 7 wounds to a DLord's 6, 2+ armor, can gain a 3++, reroll charges, better shooting...
A fast melee unit with relatively poor WS who is only able to buff specific units of ranged infantry? Yeah, I imagine there aren't too many of those around.
His WS is the second best there is, re-rolling 1s, which is above average. If thats relatively poor to you, your standards must be pretty high. Anything lower than WS2+ is a no go for you then ?
Please show me a HQ unit which has 10" move, can fly, has T6 W6 A4, 3+, 4++, can rise from the dead twice, can regenerate D3 wounds at the start of each players turn, gets -1 to hit, or reduces damage by 1, for ~130 pts.
Please show me a HQ unit which has 10" move, can fly, has T6 W6 A4, 3+, 4++, can rise from the dead twice, can regenerate D3 wounds at the start of each players turn, gets -1 to hit, or reduces damage by 1, for ~130 pts.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. I'd rather pay a bit more and have a decent HQ.
I mean, he's supposed to be a mounted Lord, right? Hence the crap WS and BS. So in that case, why can't he have the Lord's aura? Instead of one that only buffs Destroyers.
That way you don't have a dedicated-melee unit who is only able to buff a ranged unit. Moreover, his buff would actually enhance his own melee ability, rather than improving his (almost nonexistent) ranged ability.
Maelstrom808 wrote: If I remember my numbers correctly gauss Immortals will out perform tesla against marines IF you get within rapid fire range. It's I think the only instance where they are better. Also don't forget the Solar Pulse strategem. 1cp removes the cover bonus for a unit.
Or, if Marines in cover are giving you a headache, you could go crazy and load up some Gauss Tomb Blades with Scopes (both getting you to within RF distance quickly and denying their cover. Make them Mephrit and they should be deleting MEQ guys left and right with no worries about getting tied up in combat because they've got fly so can just fall back and shoot).
Excellent thanks a lot so all the lists coming out with Tesla are for against non marines
4A WS3 is better than 3A WS2, even without factoring in the rerolling 1s. Why worry about his WS3?
Being WS3 means you could even give him MWBD if you're in a pinch.
Being apparently the second best HQ in the galaxy for his price certainly doesn't deserve all this hate. He's good for what he does, and he gets some play time doesn't he?
Where's the fun in smashing primarch class super HQs together.
I actually like the Monolith and what can now be done
With certain strats I just can’t get it to survive long enough
To do any cool stuff Plasma and Lascannon Spam
Monolith goes boom most of the time first round of shooting
Anybody had success with it yet?
So I played in a local tournament yesterday, went 2 and 1 so not bad.
My list.
Spoiler:
Cryptek with immortal pride and veil of darkness
Catacomb Command Barge w/ gauss cannon and lightning field
9 immortals w/ gauss
10 warriors
20 warriors
The deciver
4 scarab swarms
4 scarab swarms
3 wraiths
Transcendent Cyan
I took on a thousand son army and won easy through tactics, hiding my forces and playing the objectives vs trying to engage.
3rd game was vs a death guard army that was full of 5 man teams with a TON of plasma guns. I got first turn and blitzed his lines, by end of turn 2 I had lost 10 warriors and a team of scarabs. All he had was 3 death guards, 3 psychers, and his chaos Lord. It wasn't going good. He managed to then kill the transcendent but my entire force was lined up to fire so he called it.
My loss came from the following list and is what I am wanting to talk about.
Spoiler:
Guilliman
Chaplain
Leutinant
4 x scout squad of 5 men with sniper rifles
1 x scout squad of 5 men with ccw and bolt pistols
3 x of the flying imperial guard ships, vendettas I think they are called?
I got creamed. Snipers killed my cryptek, vendettas wiped out my squad of 20, I managed to get into cc with the scouts and guilliman with my wraiths but guilliman cut through my invulnerable saves with mortal wounds and my not so good rolling and I couldn't get my ctan powers to target him, the aircraft kept getting in the way. Didn't help the mission we got was kill points and he got first turn.
So what modifications would anyone suggest to deal with a guilliman / aircraft assault line?
When the unit in question is an expensive melee HQ, yes.
Expensive ? Captn slamguinius from BA is 130 pts. and he hits on 3+, rerolling 1s. He has only T4 W5 3+ 4++. He cant be raised from the dead twice, not even once, and he cant regenerate D3 wound every players turn. He does more damage than the Dlord in melee, but thats it.
I mean, he's supposed to be a mounted Lord, right? Hence the crap WS and BS. So in that case, why can't he have the Lord's aura? Instead of one that only buffs Destroyers.
No, he isnt a mounted lord. He is the boss of destroyers, with a pretty weak buff, though.
Expensive ? Captn slamguinius from BA is 130 pts. and he hits on 3+, rerolling 1s. He has only T4 W5 3+ 4++. He cant be raised from the dead twice, not even once, and he cant regenerate D3 wound every players turn. He does more damage than the Dlord in melee, but thats it.
Well, I have no clue what his other stats are or what else he does, so that's not the most helpful comparison.
Out of interest, though, is he hitting on 3s because that's his base WS or because he's using a PF or TH?
p5freak wrote: Its sad that you only see him as a weak destroyer buffer, like he only has his destroyer buff, and nothing else.
Please show me the way, O Enlightened One. What is this magical aura the Destroyer Lord has, which only your Awakened eyes can see?
So what modifications would anyone suggest to deal with a guilliman / aircraft assault line?
If possible, try to avoid going into melee with Guilliman if you can.
All those scouts is a tricky one. Try to keep your characters out of LoS and chip them down with warriors/ send scarabs towards them.
As for 3x Vultures.... yikes. That's 120 S5 ap- shots coming at ya! Try to focus them down one by one. Or tie them up with Scarabs/the C'tan, forcing them to move and giving them -1 to hit. But honestly, your list was ill equipped to deal with them. A destroyer squad or a pair of DDA's would have easily dealt with them.
Doctoralex wrote:So has anyone tried an actual SWARM of scarabs?
I'm talking at least 5x9 Scarabs send straight towards the enemy.
I mean it costs nearly 600 points (excluding the damn tax HQ...) but it is 135 wounds to chew through. Either with Nephrekh for speed or Novokh for increased kill potential. It could be a good distraction for either a Silver Tide that is Deceiv'd up the board or our Wraiths/Destroyers.
Please show me a HQ unit which has 10" move, can fly, has T6 W6 A4, 3+, 4++, can rise from the dead twice, can regenerate D3 wounds at the start of each players turn, gets -1 to hit, or reduces damage by 1, for ~130 pts.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. I'd rather pay a bit more and have a decent HQ.
I mean, he's supposed to be a mounted Lord, right? Hence the crap WS and BS. So in that case, why can't he have the Lord's aura? Instead of one that only buffs Destroyers.
That way you don't have a dedicated-melee unit who is only able to buff a ranged unit. Moreover, his buff would actually enhance his own melee ability, rather than improving his (almost nonexistent) ranged ability.
That "useful buff" only affects one unit at a time if you wanna make silly complaints.
If I might weigh in on the whole Destroyer Lord debate, is there any value in a shooty Destroyer Lord?
I'm thinking one with the Mephrit Merciless Tyrant Warlord Trait and Voltaic Staff. So he'd have an 18" Assault 3 S6 AP-3 D2 gun that inflicts Mortal Wounds on 6s to wound.
I'm just thinking in terms of stuff that would let him hang with Destroyers and also get some use out of his aura.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That "useful buff" only affects one unit at a time if you wanna make silly complaints.
You're right. Clearly the Overlord buff is completely worthless because it only affects one unit at a time.
But thank you. You've made me realise that it was a mistake to ever bother asking for advice here. Your blatant disingenuousness means I can't trust anything you say with regard to tactics.
So what modifications would anyone suggest to deal with a guilliman / aircraft assault line?
If possible, try to avoid going into melee with Guilliman if you can.
All those scouts is a tricky one. Try to keep your characters out of LoS and chip them down with warriors/ send scarabs towards them.
As for 3x Vultures.... yikes. That's 120 S5 ap- shots coming at ya! Try to focus them down one by one. Or tie them up with Scarabs/the C'tan, forcing them to move and giving them -1 to hit. But honestly, your list was ill equipped to deal with them. A destroyer squad or a pair of DDA's would have easily dealt with them.
Yeah. I knew my list wasn't designed to deal with his the moment I saw it.
I think dropping the transcendent for a doomsday ark would be the first step. Also as much as I love the command barge it didn't end up doing much in my games that a normal overlord couldn't do. It normally hung out with the ctan and boosted the big warrior or the immortal squad.
If I do that It gives me points to get more scarabs, more warriors, or more wraiths. I would love to find room for 2 dda, but I don't see that happening at 1500
Played my 1st game at 1500, after waiting for ages for destroyers i just converted 9 wraiths instead.
This is what i took away from getting hammered by dark angels.
Sautekh is really good for tesla because of the methodical destruction/MWBD combo or just the method destruct it negates alot of -1 competitive armies(for a unit you want dead) and allows your tesla to do its thing.
Because of method Destruction Tombblades should be in a sautehk detachment. I used 6 and they are brutal with M.D. again you can negate alot of -1 to hit and with 20 shots i was rolling 27 hits and 18 wounds vs MEQ.
Without -1 to hit obviously they are amazing.
Destroyers(nephrehk) and Ext protocol is awesome leviathans and 4+ saves suck lol.
Activating method Detruct is a tricky thing, You have the option in deceiver/vod lists of the abyssal staff.
Which is great but 12" is limited....Against the DA i didnt want to be within 12" because of the anti teleport strat.
A small unit of 3 destroyers(sautehk) is what i wanted to use, but 1500 points didnt leave me enough room for that.
So i intended to use my tesseract ark(fail positioning led to just fail on that-boom you gone).
I did use deathmarks to fill points and they are perfect for method destruction activation, as long as you get a 6, so i ran 6 they worked very well for the points.
COLD CASH wrote: I did use deathmarks to fill points and they are perfect for method destruction activation, as long as you get a 6, so i ran 6 they worked very well for the points.
I was actually considering doing that as well... but I don't like having to rely on 6s.
How did you use them? Dropping on turn 2? Veiled up turn 1 with a Lord?
Also, I'm wondering,
What are the ideal targets to be using Methodical Destruction on?
It's an expensive strat so we don't want to be just throwing it around carelessly, even if we can potentially get the CP back via the Sautekh Strategist WLT.
Well i dropped them outside 12" and relied on luck but against non strat deepstrike counters i would of had them within 12" for rapid fire and increasing my odds of a 6.
I dropped them turn 3 vs hellblasters. Got 2 6's and mNged another unsaved wound. So a great return imo for 6 shots.
Though i was thrashed i thought with better play and less glaringly stupid mistakes i might have won agaisnt his gun line.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well i dropped them outside 12" and relied on luck but against non strat deepstrike counters i would of had them within 12" for rapid fire and increasing my odds of a 6.
I dropped them turn 3 vs hellblasters. Got 2 6's and mNged another unsaved wound. So a great return imo for 6 shots.
Though i was thrashed i thought with better play and less glaringly stupid mistakes i might have won agaisnt his gun line.
Curious79 wrote: I actually like the Monolith and what can now be done
With certain strats I just can’t get it to survive long enough
To do any cool stuff Plasma and Lascannon Spam
Monolith goes boom most of the time first round of shooting
Anybody had success with it yet?
I think Mephrit is the way to go to unlock their potential. The buffs really synergize with what they do, which is drop in close and then use their portals to drop other units in closer.
I think you really need two, though, which pretty much means 1850 to 2k.
I'm playing with a list that starts like this:
2xMono
2x10 Gauss Immortals
1x10 WS Lychguard
I figure with 2 Monos, Enhanced Invasion Beams, and Emergency Invasion Beams you can feel pretty confident getting 3 units on the board before both Monos go poof. The Gauss Immortals make sense because with Meph you are bringing 40 S5 AP -4 shots to bear, and the WS Lychguard just always screamed to me to be a unit that needs some Mono love. Of course, I'm also playing this with the assumption that the Mono (and NS) will get errata'd soon to allow charges out of the invasion beams. All the testers I've spoken too confirm that was the intention.
To go with that I'm thinking something along the lines of CCB, DLord, or Cloaktek to bolt up the board and provide assistance, escorted my Destroyers, Wraiths, or TPs.
One of the best things the Mono potentially has going for it its an RP saver. Use them to help hide that one dude in each squad out of LOS.
Well, I have no clue what his other stats are or what else he does, so that's not the most helpful comparison.
Out of interest, though, is he hitting on 3s because that's his base WS or because he's using a PF or TH?
He is a regular SM captain using a TH. Inferior in every way to the Dlord, except damage, and 2" more movement with JP, costing the same points.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Please show me the way, O Enlightened One. What is this magical aura the Destroyer Lord has, which only your Awakened eyes can see?
I already told you twice what he can do, i wont do it a third time. There is nothing else in the game that can do what he can do. Why are you even asking for advice when you ignore it ?
vipoid wrote:If I might weigh in on the whole Destroyer Lord debate, is there any value in a shooty Destroyer Lord?
No. The leader of a shooty unit is better in melee. Weird, but thats how it is.
3+ reroll 1's has a 77.78% chance to hit. 2+ has a 83.33% chance to hit, so it's better, but only marginally so.
I personally like running a Novokh DLord with a Blood Scythe to get the full re-roll to hits and an average of 6 attacks a turn, not to mention the opportunity to punch twice in a pinch.
That being said, I do find myself reaching for the CCB more often then not in Novokh. I run a 20 brick of FOs in the list and MWBD just sends them so much love it's hard to pass up on.
Speaking of which, this my Novokh list right now and I've been loving it:
Spoiler:
Novokh Brigade
CCB res orb SLGC (Walrod Immortal Pride)
Cryptek Chrono (Veil)
Szeras
20 FOs
20 War
5x5 Immos
2x5 FOs
4x3xScarabs
2x1 HD 1x2 HD
2000 on the dot
Szeras drops his dime on the 20xWarrios first turn who then Veil off with the Cryptek to bounce behind the Flayed Ones and punch holes in bubble wrap for them. Then he hangs around the backfield buffing a different Immortal unit each turn and pewpewing with the HDs.
It's a Brigade so I got CP to spare and don't mind not having Hype Strat as much as I would in other lists. I like having the CCB with Immortal Pride instead as it keeps both those 20 bricks on the board rolling RP.
Not a ton of anti tank but also no vehicles myself so I find that balances out, as I tend to ignore my opponents anti tank until the efficient troop killers are dead. Plus, 20 Novokh Flayed Ones with MWBD, Disruption Fields and Blood Rites can punch through just about anything.
Interesting list, do you play against mainly fluff armies or comp?
Im asking becuz sometimes its hard to gauge a list when you dont know the background of the OG's meta.
Like my meta is pretty much comp, with sprinklings of fluff. Not necessarily ITC spam lists, just good units played to a high level.
Which means its hard for me to play fluffy lists because you just get creamed.
However your list is quite left of center and could do quite well, as a semi horde list.
COLD CASH wrote: Played my 1st game at 1500, after waiting for ages for destroyers i just converted 9 wraiths instead.
This is what i took away from getting hammered by dark angels.
Sautekh is really good for tesla because of the methodical destruction/MWBD combo or just the method destruct it negates alot of -1 competitive armies(for a unit you want dead) and allows your tesla to do its thing.
Because of method Destruction Tombblades should be in a sautehk detachment. I used 6 and they are brutal with M.D. again you can negate alot of -1 to hit and with 20 shots i was rolling 27 hits and 18 wounds vs MEQ.
Without -1 to hit obviously they are amazing.
Destroyers(nephrehk) and Ext protocol is awesome leviathans and 4+ saves suck lol.
Activating method Detruct is a tricky thing, You have the option in deceiver/vod lists of the abyssal staff.
Which is great but 12" is limited....Against the DA i didnt want to be within 12" because of the anti teleport strat.
A small unit of 3 destroyers(sautehk) is what i wanted to use, but 1500 points didnt leave me enough room for that.
So i intended to use my tesseract ark(fail positioning led to just fail on that-boom you gone).
I did use deathmarks to fill points and they are perfect for method destruction activation, as long as you get a 6, so i ran 6 they worked very well for
the points.
So Tesla worked well against marines without any AP was this just due to the volume of saves they had to make?
p5freak wrote: I already told you twice what he can do, i wont do it a third time.
Well, what a surprise. When called on your nonsense you immediately resort to 'I've said it before. Somewhere. Probably. Or, you know, maybe vaguely alluded to it in some way. But I can't possibly say it again. It would . . . er . . . compromise my ancient wisdom. Yeah, that's right.'
I don't suppose you'd care to share a picture of the Destroyer Lord's dataslate from your codex? Since apparently your version contains an aura that's actually useful. Or is that just what you tell your opponents?
p5freak wrote: I already told you twice what he can do, i wont do it a third time.
Well, what a surprise. When called on your nonsense you immediately resort to 'I've said it before. Somewhere. Probably. Or, you know, maybe vaguely alluded to it in some way. But I can't possibly say it again. It would . . . er . . . compromise my ancient wisdom. Yeah, that's right.'
I don't suppose you'd care to share a picture of the Destroyer Lord's dataslate from your codex? Since apparently your version contains an aura that's actually useful. Or is that just what you tell your opponents?
Not gonna lie, havent read the entire way back, but are people actually saying re-rolls of 1's to wound on destroyers is good? seems incredibly bad compared to the 1cp stratagem that allows a unit to reroll all hits and wounds....
Maybe if your going like 100% destroyers, then yeah, its valid, but if your buffing a single unit of destroyers, an overlord is head and shoulders superior in almost every way...
So Tesla worked well against marines without any AP was this just due to the volume of saves they had to make?
Yeh and the high str makes quite a difference, rolling 18 2+ cover saves per 6 TB's netted me 4 wounds or 2 dead primaris. I forgot to use the solar pulse strat to negate his cover save.
But i was impressed with the basic efficiency when i negated his -1 with method D.
TB and immortals did an excellent job, despite my crap positioning and continual mistakes(but it was good to make them, coming from DG i dont really need to worry about positioning because they are so tough and i use a grinding approach.) Learning a more surgical playstyle, watching distances and being very particular when and were i bring my forces on is obviously needed with crons since they are made of china!
Ohh and despite the drubbing i really enjoyed them, the surgical style while mentally consuming was also really fun and reminded me of 2nd edition when i last used to play and was pro!
Im no longer consumed with winning and prefer to put up a good fight and win or lose have fun.
But its nice to have to make difficult strategic calls again(i used to run Wolves) back in the day and every move and every placement needed to be perfect. Crons gave me a similiar feeling last week.
Probably not the best use of a destroyer lord who seems to suit CC better than anything else the cron have beside the ctan.
On the CCB i think both those make more sense because you have more guns and the tesla is assault, even then its situational.
Best to try it and see(proxy if needed) if it suits you'll find out in a few games.
NB: they arnt bad but situational. The problem is when you have hyperlogical and moral immune traits which are game changers, the mephrit trait starts to look more like a fun game trait.
3+ reroll 1's has a 77.78% chance to hit. 2+ has a 83.33% chance to hit, so it's better, but only marginally so.
I personally like running a Novokh DLord with a Blood Scythe to get the full re-roll to hits and an average of 6 attacks a turn, not to mention the opportunity to punch twice in a pinch.
That being said, I do find myself reaching for the CCB more often then not in Novokh. I run a 20 brick of FOs in the list and MWBD just sends them so much love it's hard to pass up on.
Speaking of which, this my Novokh list right now and I've been loving it:
Spoiler:
Novokh Brigade
CCB res orb SLGC (Walrod Immortal Pride)
Cryptek Chrono (Veil)
Szeras
20 FOs
20 War
5x5 Immos
2x5 FOs
4x3xScarabs
2x1 HD 1x2 HD
2000 on the dot
Szeras drops his dime on the 20xWarrios first turn who then Veil off with the Cryptek to bounce behind the Flayed Ones and punch holes in bubble wrap for them. Then he hangs around the backfield buffing a different Immortal unit each turn and pewpewing with the HDs.
It's a Brigade so I got CP to spare and don't mind not having Hype Strat as much as I would in other lists. I like having the CCB with Immortal Pride instead as it keeps both those 20 bricks on the board rolling RP.
Not a ton of anti tank but also no vehicles myself so I find that balances out, as I tend to ignore my opponents anti tank until the efficient troop killers are dead. Plus, 20 Novokh Flayed Ones with MWBD, Disruption Fields and Blood Rites can punch through just about anything.
How do you play the warrior/flayed ones synergy now that you can no longer deep strike them turn one?
Not gonna lie, havent read the entire way back, but are people actually saying re-rolls of 1's to wound on destroyers is good? seems incredibly bad compared to the 1cp stratagem that allows a unit to reroll all hits and wounds....
Maybe if your going like 100% destroyers, then yeah, its valid, but if your buffing a single unit of destroyers, an overlord is head and shoulders superior in almost every way...
No. No one's claiming the DLord buff is any good. TheFleshIsWeak seems to be a massive troll being fed way too much.
With the nanoscarab casket the DLord is pretty tough to kill, and fairly ok in combat. Combine this with his speed you can use him to hinder your opponent fairly efficiently. You shouldn't expect much, but burning a few extra cp means your opponent wastes a lot of resources trying to kill a DLord which isn't focused on the rest of your force.
Sadly Szeras buff disappears when veiled and as torblind said turn 1 deep strike outside of deployment zone is not possible anymore. Szeras doesn't really bring anything to that list.
You could of course wait until turn 2 with the veil and deep strike and use turn 1 to clear and screens.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Sadly Szeras buff disappears when veiled and as torblind said turn 1 deep strike outside of deployment zone is not possible anymore. Szeras doesn't really bring anything to that list.
You could of course wait until turn 2 with the veil and deep strike and use turn 1 to clear and screens.
I didn't word it well but what I meant to say is Szeras buffs them turn 1 and then on turn 2 they drop in behind the DSed Flayed Ones.
Why would Szeras buff disappear when veiled? I'm not aware of anyone who plays it that way, nor any rule that would cause you to interpret it as such.
Also, even outside of buffing the 20 Warriors he has 5 other units of Immortals to buff, both their RP and with his augmentation. He also fills the requisite third HQ slot. Not sure how you could interpret that as not bringing anything to the list.
With the nanoscarab casket the DLord is pretty tough to kill, and fairly ok in combat.
Do you not think it's an issue when the best thing you can say about a melee HQ is that he's 'fairly ok in combat'?
Because this is the whole problem. I wouldn't mind the Destroyer Lord only being okay in combat if he actually brought a decent buff (or, God forbid, a decent ranged weapon). However, you have a unit that's locked into a melee role, yet is - at best - 'fairly okay' at it. This is the role he's supposed to excel at. He is a single purpose unit who is, at best, mediocre at that single purpose.
He's fairly tough, I don't deny that. But the issue is that he's not tough enough for it to matter. He can't lock enemies in combat, so he simply doesn't function as a tarpit. And while he's more durable than some HQs, he's not durable enough to survive on his own. Even with all his defences, a Lascannon can still one-shot him. And his regeneration suffers from the same issue as RPs - all the enemy needs to do is kill him in one turn and it becomes entirely irrelevant. Yes, once per game he can revive, but with a 50/50 chance this is hardly something you can rely on.
MrPieChee wrote: You shouldn't expect much, but burning a few extra cp means your opponent wastes a lot of resources trying to kill a DLord which isn't focused on the rest of your force.
I'm not seeing it. As above, I think you're overestimating how hard he is to kill. More importantly, though, the issue is that he's so ineffective even if he does survive. Maybe if he had a better weapon, but the Warscythe just isn't threatening enough.
Not gonna lie, havent read the entire way back, but are people actually saying re-rolls of 1's to wound on destroyers is good? seems incredibly bad compared to the 1cp stratagem that allows a unit to reroll all hits and wounds....
Maybe if your going like 100% destroyers, then yeah, its valid, but if your buffing a single unit of destroyers, an overlord is head and shoulders superior in almost every way...
It's definitely designed with multiple units of Destroyers in mind. As you said, if you are only thinking of one unit then MWBD+EP is the superior option.
For a full Destroyer wing, though? I could see the DLord aura being potentially useful. I haven't run in 8th, though, so just spit balling.
If I were to run D-Wing I'm thinking Mephrit? If that were the case I could see using the shooty DLord vipoid mentioned.
You claimed there was a way to use it other than buffing Destroyers. I'm asking you once again to substantiate that.
I think he's made it pretty clear that it wasn't the aura itself that makes the DLord potentially viable, its other things he does.
Yes, but are those other things he does worth it?
With a Warscythe and Phylactery/Casket (arguably his best loadout) he's 131 points, right?
What's he doing for those 131 points? Not buffing Destroyers, that's a waste of time compared to what they can do with their strat.
So he's supposed to be getting into combat, right?
Okay, well a couple of Wraiths would be 20 points cheaper. Can he do a better job in combat than a couple Wraiths?
4 S7 AP-4 D2 attacks w/ T6 6W 4++ (rr1th, regains wounds, might get back up once a game)
6 S6 AP-2 D2 attacks w/ T5 6W 3++ (can charge after advancing/falling back and get RP with strats)
You claimed there was a way to use it other than buffing Destroyers. I'm asking you once again to substantiate that.
I think he's made it pretty clear that it wasn't the aura itself that makes the DLord potentially viable, its other things he does.
Yes, but are those other things he does worth it?
With a Warscythe and Phylactery/Casket (arguably his best loadout) he's 131 points, right?
What's he doing for those 131 points? Not buffing Destroyers, that's a waste of time compared to what they can do with their strat.
So he's supposed to be getting into combat, right?
Okay, well a couple of Wraiths would be 20 points cheaper. Can he do a better job in combat than a couple Wraiths?
4 S7 AP-4 D2 attacks w/ T6 6W 4++ (rr1th, regains wounds, might get back up once a game)
6 S6 AP-2 D2 attacks w/ T5 6W 3++ (can charge after advancing/falling back and get RP with strats)
My problem is how do you play him.
Ok you charge a vulnerable glass unit on a flank, they then pull out and the rest of the army guns you down. 4++ isn't really scaring anyone.
Or do you let him advance with something else? So that even if said glass unit pulls out, he still has more threatening targets to go after?
Do you walk him with wraiths? Does he really bring something to the table there? In 7th he helped greately with damage output, but now the wraiths are quite fine on their own in that department. At least the gap to the warscythe reduced greatly.
Even with 10" move, he still needs a couple of turns to get across the table if you hold him back. So can't hold him back for too long.
His base is big, so he could perhaps tie up a lot of things in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What if you run him with Gauss Tomb Blades? They move up, shoot in RF range, he charges in, keeping the blades alive to shoot another day?
Destroyers at 24" don't really need that kind of baby sitting.
Mephrit destroyers that want to be within 12" perhaps?
Tesla Cannon, as it has to be Assault to get the buff, but yeah, the CCB gets a bit more mileage out of Meph then the DLord.
That being said, I still think a case could be made for the shooty DLord in a DWing. I'll have to try that out, soon.
I get that the CCB is a little better, but I'm really not a fan of using it.
I know it's perfectly legal for it to hide behind Warriors, but it just feels . . . wrong.
Regarding the Voltaic Staff, it's a little annoying that we've got 3 Artefacts that are all variations on the Staff of Light, and yet none of them buff the weapon's piddling melee profile.
Yes, but are those other things he does worth it?
With a Warscythe and Phylactery/Casket (arguably his best loadout) he's 131 points, right?
What's he doing for those 131 points? Not buffing Destroyers, that's a waste of time compared to what they can do with their strat.
So he's supposed to be getting into combat, right?
Okay, well a couple of Wraiths would be 20 points cheaper. Can he do a better job in combat than a couple Wraiths?
4 S7 AP-4 D2 attacks w/ T6 6W 4++ (rr1th, regains wounds, might get back up once a game)
6 S6 AP-2 D2 attacks w/ T5 6W 3++ (can charge after advancing/falling back and get RP with strats)
Sadly, I think this pretty much sums it up.
I the D. Lord's aura is the biggest issue (giving him a universal reroll 1s aura like the Lord would lend him far more utility). However, it does seem that some of our melee weapons are just lacking in bite. I don't mind the Voidblade and Hyperphase Sword being mediocre, since they're just cheap options anyway. But the Warscythe is supposed to be our ultimate melee weapon and yet it feels very lacklustre indeed. Also, the Staff of Light seems a little too flimsy in melee.
I played a game against Harlequins with a vaguely similar list. Did really well, but not sure if my opponent wasn't ready for the list or if he played badly or if he was just plain unlucky (which he was). This was my first win with the new codex, but I'm not sure about how strong Harlequins are? He moved up, I destroyed all his vehicles, I survived his counter-attack and slaughtered him in the next turn making him surrender, he got 4 VP I was probably going to get 10-15 if we continued. His Solitair had a relic which combined with a stratagem and a psychic power made me hit on 6s with my Lychguard, making them do 0 wounds and the relic did 7 mortal wounds to my Lychguard. In addition, my Flayed Ones failed their charge and got demolished, but other than that it was all smooth sailing. Ghost Ark and Warriors do a lot better than the index with immortal pride since you can spam Warriors without worrying about morale. I felt okay without the 6 extra CP, if I did use a Brigade I think I would go for a different WL trait, Implacable Conqueror or Crimson Haze on the Veiltek? Not paying the extra CP for lightning field or nightmare shroud for the CCB seems really cheap in a list with 15 CP. Also, lots of conga lines with this list.
I'm pretty sure Lychguard are terrible as well, I totally forgot to put the mandatory destroyer unit in my army, so I guess I'd replace the Lychguard with 6 Destroyers, although maybe the army becomes too CP hungry then?
You claimed there was a way to use it other than buffing Destroyers. I'm asking you once again to substantiate that.
I think he's made it pretty clear that it wasn't the aura itself that makes the DLord potentially viable, its other things he does.
Yes, but are those other things he does worth it?
With a Warscythe and Phylactery/Casket (arguably his best loadout) he's 131 points, right?
What's he doing for those 131 points? Not buffing Destroyers, that's a waste of time compared to what they can do with their strat.
So he's supposed to be getting into combat, right?
Okay, well a couple of Wraiths would be 20 points cheaper. Can he do a better job in combat than a couple Wraiths?
4 S7 AP-4 D2 attacks w/ T6 6W 4++ (rr1th, regains wounds, might get back up once a game)
6 S6 AP-2 D2 attacks w/ T5 6W 3++ (can charge after advancing/falling back and get RP with strats)
My problem is how do you play him.
Sorry, I can't really give you any advice there.
Unfortunately, judging by the comparison I gave, it doesn't really look like it's worth playing him anymore.
Mephrit destroyers that want to be within 12" perhaps?
Noooooo. Definitely not. You want Destroyers as far away as you can from things that can charge them. While Talent For Annihilation is alright for Destroyers, Mephrit's Dynasty code is one of the more useless for them.
Noooooo. Definitely not. You want Destroyers as far away as you can from things that can charge them. While Talent For Annihilation is alright for Destroyers, Mephrit's Dynasty code is one of the more useless for them.
The other aspect is that beyond about AP-3 you really start to get into diminishing returns. Especially when so many units have invulnerable saves anyway.
But the Warscythe is supposed to be our ultimate melee weapon and yet it feels very lacklustre indeed. Also, the Staff of Light seems a little too flimsy in melee.
I think the Warscythe is great, it's just that the things holding it don't have very many attacks (I suppose you could blame the WS for not granting bonus attacks, but you can't have everything...)
p5freak wrote: I already told you twice what he can do, i wont do it a third time. There is nothing else in the game that can do what he can do. Why are you even asking for advice when you ignore it ?
*Cough cough Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike cough cough*
Cheeslord wrote: I think the Warscythe is great, it's just that the things holding it don't have very many attacks
Surely number of attacks is an important consideration, though? I mean, maybe the Warscythe would be fine if Overlords had 6 attacks apiece, but since they don't one might think the weapon would take that into account.
As for it being great, I'm just not seeing it. It used to wound virtually all infantry and Monsters on 2s, now it wounds them on 3s. It used to roll 2d6+7 vs vehicle armour. Now it gets . . . nothing against vehicles.
AP-4 sounds good, but is wasted against most units (either they won't have enough armour to make it worthwhile or else an invulnerable save will kick in). And D2 just isn't enough to threaten most elite targets - especially with the aforementioned issue of our HQs having so few attacks.
How about a tomb blade wing with the DLord? Run 2*6 cheapo tomb blades perhaps mephrit for that nice AP -1, or novokh even, really putting money behind the cc threat, season with 6 scarabs perhaps to make the novokh outrider complete.
One six blade squad with particle beamers shoots and charges to kill 8-9 guardsmen, letting morale deal with rest.
DLord charges first, eating the overwatch with T6 vs S3, and supreme healing in both turns. Throws his attacks where the blades hot below average.
The group is very fast, can dart up fast to shift the dynamic of the battle
The problem with the dlord still stands. His buff only effects other destroyers, I don't find anything wrong with him myself in fun games or fluff based armies (All destroyer, all the time! Lists) but competitive situations there are better hq choices.
Compare a dlord to ccb, the ccb gives better support to a necron army in pretty much all situations, for 30 extra points. Plus while the dlord can be super hard to kill with Regen and get back up strat compare it to ccb which can get 4++ save, quantum shielding, and the mortal wound on a 4+ for a pseudo extra attack, I don't see the dlord worth saving 30 pts.
torblind wrote: How about a tomb blade wing with the DLord? Run 2*6 cheapo tomb blades perhaps mephrit for that nice AP -1, or novokh even, really putting money behind the cc threat, season with 6 scarabs perhaps to make the novokh outrider complete.
Again, why bother with a D.Lord at that point? He doesn't help the TBs at all.
If it's to provide CC threat, Wraiths will more or less do the same job at a similar price point.
torblind wrote: How about a tomb blade wing with the DLord? Run 2*6 cheapo tomb blades perhaps mephrit for that nice AP -1, or novokh even, really putting money behind the cc threat, season with 6 scarabs perhaps to make the novokh outrider complete.
Again, why bother with a D.Lord at that point? He doesn't help the TBs at all.
If it's to provide CC threat, Wraiths will more or less do the same job at a similar price point.
Nothing helps the TBs (bar a tag-along do-no-good cryptek)
There's a difference though, the wraiths are fire magnets. The DLord is not, he's untouchable. Enemy has to start digging through the blades to get to him.
It's likely he will focus on your DDAs, your wraiths elsewhere, your scarab screen, or your advancing immortals
This small relatively cheap combat group offers flexibility, getting where its needed and threaten small and medium T targets with both shooting and melee
Don't think its competitive, but perhaps surprisingly durable for LFGS games
Played my Nids against a 3x Tesseract Vault Deceiver trick list using ITC mission rules this weekend. We played 3 full turns before we timed out. Nids won 16-13. The T Vault is good for Mortal wounds and can do some nasty alpha strike, but after turn 2 when they were damaged and degrading he started having trouble. Not sure if it would be a viable list.
Now I would be interested in trying 3x Transcendent C'tan and running those guys with some Destroyers and Tesla immortals. Anyone tried the Trans C'tan yet?
There's a difference though, the wraiths are fire magnets. The DLord is not, he's untouchable. Enemy has to start digging through the blades to get to him.
You're correct that the D. Lord is basically untouchable until the Tomb Blades are dead. But I'm not seeing how that's a point in his favour, as it means you're getting nothing out of his enhanced durability.
It's like hiding a distraction carnifex behind your glass cannons.
There's a difference though, the wraiths are fire magnets. The DLord is not, he's untouchable. Enemy has to start digging through the blades to get to him.
You're correct that the D. Lord is basically untouchable until the Tomb Blades are dead. But I'm not seeing how that's a point in his favour, as it means you're getting nothing out of his enhanced durability.
It's like hiding a distraction carnifex behind your glass cannons.
Remember he does the occasional charge, eats 1-2 DMG from overwatch and when they hit back, but conveniently getting 4w back on average each turn. Perfect role for his regeneration.
And your enemy will likely grasp that he's not killy enough to warrant digging through all those tomb blades
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could throw in a couple of shield vanes and some invuo saves for good measure too, for scrap points left over
Maybe 3x9 Tomb Blades list will work? I have only 12 tomb blades but if anyone tried i would be happy to hear some feedback before building another 16 tomb blades
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Maybe 3x9 Tomb Blades list will work? I have only 12 tomb blades but if anyone tried i would be happy to hear some feedback before building another 16 tomb blades
Well my idea was to have it cheap enough that the rest of your army will always the main threat, allowing this flanking to pass relatively peacefully on his side to harass where needed and become a late game problem for him
You claimed there was a way to use it other than buffing Destroyers. I'm asking you once again to substantiate that.
I think he's made it pretty clear that it wasn't the aura itself that makes the DLord potentially viable, its other things he does.
Yes, but are those other things he does worth it?
With a Warscythe and Phylactery/Casket (arguably his best loadout) he's 131 points, right?
What's he doing for those 131 points? Not buffing Destroyers, that's a waste of time compared to what they can do with their strat.
So he's supposed to be getting into combat, right?
Okay, well a couple of Wraiths would be 20 points cheaper. Can he do a better job in combat than a couple Wraiths?
4 S7 AP-4 D2 attacks w/ T6 6W 4++ (rr1th, regains wounds, might get back up once a game)
6 S6 AP-2 D2 attacks w/ T5 6W 3++ (can charge after advancing/falling back and get RP with strats)
The thing he does is act independently compared to the rest of the force.
There is value there. Obviously we try and get as many CP for this army as we can, so that means we can't be bothering with taxes. If you're looking at just adding some squads of Wraiths and Destroyers, the Destroyer Lord is awesome because he fulfills any of those HQ requirements for the units that are also more independent. If you were to add something like a Lord or Overlord or Cryptek, they're not going to do much for the detachment.
Take him strictly in a Novokh/Nephrekh Outrider and use him like an extra squad of Wraiths.
torblind wrote: How about a tomb blade wing with the DLord? Run 2*6 cheapo tomb blades perhaps mephrit for that nice AP -1, or novokh even, really putting money behind the cc threat, season with 6 scarabs perhaps to make the novokh outrider complete.
Again, why bother with a D.Lord at that point? He doesn't help the TBs at all.
If it's to provide CC threat, Wraiths will more or less do the same job at a similar price point.
I'm not sure if it's fair to compare him to Wraiths. The DLord fills a prereq slot. The Wraiths do not.
The fairest comparison is the CCB. I tend to lean more towards the CCB for competitive play, but I do think the two are pretty close. Thee CCB's versatility with MWBD just wins out.
That being said I'm still thinking one running with a a bunch of Destroyers is a reasonable investment.
Something like this:
Spoiler:
DLord 3x6 Destroyers
3x3 HDs
That's about 1500 points depending on upgrades. I would likely give him a Res Orb in the configuration, and probably an upgraded Staff of Light depending on which Dynasty you are running.
Now you are potentially give 18 Ds and 9 HDs reroll 1's to wounds. I haven'y hammered it out yet but my intuition tells me you will be getting a considerable amount of mileage out of it at that point, and it won't cost you any CP to do so.
Also, while he's not shooting or chopping in general, he's still there to run up and punch anything in the face if it gets too close. Mephrit can give his staff 18" range as well, which works pretty well with the D's range.
Automatically Appended Next Post: i guess what I'm working around to is we already know Destroyers are good. Is spending one your required HQ slots on a unit that does nothing but buff them and provide some deterrent to CC threats to them really that unreasonable?
The more I think about it the more I'm starting to understand the logic in his design.
Of course, this is all sticking with the notion that you need several units of Ds and/or HDs to get his full potential. Otherwise you are generally better off with and Overlord.
Can you tell me where i find the rule that the shield captain on jetbike can rise from the dead twice and regenerate D3 wounds on every players turn ?
No. But it has better shooting, a better armor save, better CC, can get a better invuln and reroll failed charges...
So yes, if your criteria for good is solely "Can resurrect and regenerate wounds" then no, the Shield Captain isn't good. But when you compare what they can actually do...
Can you tell me where i find the rule that the shield captain on jetbike can rise from the dead twice and regenerate D3 wounds on every players turn ?
No. But it has better shooting, a better armor save, better CC, can get a better invuln and reroll failed charges...
So yes, if your criteria for good is solely "Can resurrect and regenerate wounds" then no, the Shield Captain isn't good. But when you compare what they can actually do...
Can you also find me ONE person that thinks the Custodes Bikers are fairly priced?
Noooooo. Definitely not. You want Destroyers as far away as you can from things that can charge them. While Talent For Annihilation is alright for Destroyers, Mephrit's Dynasty code is one of the more useless for them.
I couldn't disagree with this statement more. In fact, outside of Sautekh, it's the only one they could reasonably get some mileage out of.
Nihilahk? Completely and truly useless. Novokh? Helps the DLord, not so much the Ds. Nephrek? Once in a blue moon situational at best.
So its' basically Sautekh to occasionally make the make them a little faster at the expense of accuracy, or Mephrit. And, yes, while there is some diminishing returns better AP -3 and AP -4, 3+ saves and 4+ saves in cover are still pretty ubiquitous in this game, and in most cases are not accompanied by a ++.
Dynas wrote: Played my Nids against a 3x Tesseract Vault Deceiver trick list using ITC mission rules this weekend. We played 3 full turns before we timed out. Nids won 16-13. The T Vault is good for Mortal wounds and can do some nasty alpha strike, but after turn 2 when they were damaged and degrading he started having trouble. Not sure if it would be a viable list.
Now I would be interested in trying 3x Transcendent C'tan and running those guys with some Destroyers and Tesla immortals. Anyone tried the Trans C'tan yet?
I played with one at a local tourney this last weekend. Transcendent Ctan and Deceiver are nasty together, the mortal wound output is amazing and their threat level in cc is high enough that most things (other than Gman himself) will want nothing to do with them. You do have to watch for swarm tarpit units and other elite stuff that can hurt a lot, but I rolled in all my games for the traits and got +1 to saving throws twice. I really wish we had more control over our abilities, a 3++ cast both powers each turn would be great.
However I got
Game 1 : 3++, Regen wounds at the beginning of your turn, and it never got targeted once.
Game 2 : double 1's so I only got "use both powers" which is still damn nice
Game 3 : 3++ and ignore cover, but this game this guy got into it with a bunch of death guard and it took a chaos Lord, 3 sorcerers, and 4 death guard men to kill it in cc, and it still ended up killing the 4 men and the Lord before dying. Unfortunately no explosion even with reroll
...
Want to try either deciver, nightbringer, and transcendent or deciver, transcendent, vault but I need more bits to get myself a vault.
So Tesla worked well against marines without any AP was this just due to the volume of saves they had to make?
Yeh and the high str makes quite a difference, rolling 18 2+ cover saves per 6 TB's netted me 4 wounds or 2 dead primaris. I forgot to use the solar pulse strat to negate his cover save.
But i was impressed with the basic efficiency when i negated his -1 with method D.
TB and immortals did an excellent job, despite my crap positioning and continual mistakes(but it was good to make them, coming from DG i dont really need to worry about positioning because they are so tough and i use a grinding approach.) Learning a more surgical playstyle, watching distances and being very particular when and were i bring my forces on is obviously needed with crons since they are made of china!
Ohh and despite the drubbing i really enjoyed them, the surgical style while mentally consuming was also really fun and reminded me of 2nd edition when i last used to play and was pro!
Im no longer consumed with winning and prefer to put up a good fight and win or lose have fun.
But its nice to have to make difficult strategic calls again(i used to run Wolves) back in the day and every move and every placement needed to be perfect. Crons gave me a similiar feeling last week.
4 wounds out of 18 is that good? I might be just wanting too much, how did the immortals do? Really can’t decide between warriors
Or immortals against marines then tesla or gauss I seem to just like having more troops and it’s easier to give the buffs to blobs
Than immortals I think?
Curious79 wrote: I actually like the Monolith and what can now be done
With certain strats I just can’t get it to survive long enough
To do any cool stuff Plasma and Lascannon Spam
Monolith goes boom most of the time first round of shooting
Anybody had success with it yet?
I think Mephrit is the way to go to unlock their potential. The buffs really synergize with what they do, which is drop in close and then use their portals to drop other units in closer.
I think you really need two, though, which pretty much means 1850 to 2k.
I'm playing with a list that starts like this:
2xMono
2x10 Gauss Immortals
1x10 WS Lychguard
I figure with 2 Monos, Enhanced Invasion Beams, and Emergency Invasion Beams you can feel pretty confident getting 3 units on the board before both Monos go poof. The Gauss Immortals make sense because with Meph you are bringing 40 S5 AP -4 shots to bear, and the WS Lychguard just always screamed to me to be a unit that needs some Mono love. Of course, I'm also playing this with the assumption that the Mono (and NS) will get errata'd soon to allow charges out of the invasion beams. All the testers I've spoken too confirm that was the intention.
To go with that I'm thinking something along the lines of CCB, DLord, or Cloaktek to bolt up the board and provide assistance, escorted my Destroyers, Wraiths, or TPs.
One of the best things the Mono potentially has going for it its an RP saver. Use them to help hide that one dude in each squad out of LOS.
Yeah it annoys me that we have to take two or three just to transport in troops while I am ranting I hate how we have to find crazy ways to get an
HQ up there or spend CP hopefully that will change
I am pretty sure you can charge after these strats as there at the beginning of the movement phase.
Also some sau patrol or spearhead to try reclaim the CP as this list will eat them up
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Sadly Szeras buff disappears when veiled and as torblind said turn 1 deep strike outside of deployment zone is not possible anymore. Szeras doesn't really bring anything to that list.
You could of course wait until turn 2 with the veil and deep strike and use turn 1 to clear and screens.
I didn't word it well but what I meant to say is Szeras buffs them turn 1 and then on turn 2 they drop in behind the DSed Flayed Ones.
Why would Szeras buff disappear when veiled? I'm not aware of anyone who plays it that way, nor any rule that would cause you to interpret it as such.
Also, even outside of buffing the 20 Warriors he has 5 other units of Immortals to buff, both their RP and with his augmentation. He also fills the requisite third HQ slot. Not sure how you could interpret that as not bringing anything to the list.
It's in a FAQ or somewhere that if you remove something from the battlefield and set it up again all status effects such as buffs disappear. So for example MWBD does not work on a veiled unit and I think that this also affects "permanent" buffs.
Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects (for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of an ability)?
A: No.
What constitutes a 'persistent effect' is best discussed in another forum.
I will once again point out that MWBD is not a persistent effect as it has a built in end of duration. Szeras buff and orikan transformations are persistent effects. Will also point out again that the FAQ entry is specifically for strategems and is limiter for tide of traitors. Using veil on anything that has been MWBD will not remove the buff.
Agreed with folks ignoring Mepherit. 20x Warriors, MWBD, Talent for Annihilation, veiled with Criptec, is no joke. 40 S4 -2, with +1 to hit and 6s causing additional rolls. Then then have to be shifted, placed in cover and that requires volume of shots and decent AP
Dynas wrote: Played my Nids against a 3x Tesseract Vault Deceiver trick list using ITC mission rules this weekend. We played 3 full turns before we timed out. Nids won 16-13. The T Vault is good for Mortal wounds and can do some nasty alpha strike, but after turn 2 when they were damaged and degrading he started having trouble. Not sure if it would be a viable list.
Now I would be interested in trying 3x Transcendent C'tan and running those guys with some Destroyers and Tesla immortals. Anyone tried the Trans C'tan yet?
I played with one at a local tourney this last weekend. Transcendent Ctan and Deceiver are nasty together, the mortal wound output is amazing and their threat level in cc is high enough that most things (other than Gman himself) will want nothing to do with them. You do have to watch for swarm tarpit units and other elite stuff that can hurt a lot, but I rolled in all my games for the traits and got +1 to saving throws twice. I really wish we had more control over our abilities, a 3++ cast both powers each turn would be great.
However I got
Game 1 : 3++, Regen wounds at the beginning of your turn, and it never got targeted once.
Game 2 : double 1's so I only got "use both powers" which is still damn nice
Game 3 : 3++ and ignore cover, but this game this guy got into it with a bunch of death guard and it took a chaos Lord, 3 sorcerers, and 4 death guard men to kill it in cc, and it still ended up killing the 4 men and the Lord before dying. Unfortunately no explosion even with reroll
...
Want to try either deciver, nightbringer, and transcendent or deciver, transcendent, vault but I need more bits to get myself a vault.
love the CTan it’s just I am rubbish with them would love to open it up to the forum if peepz are up for to try and get a solid list
With one or two CTan and the combinations that they bring and any tactics that work for each especially against marines I think 1500 is prob too low to include one
So 1850+
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TommyBoy13 wrote: Agreed with folks ignoring Mepherit. 20x Warriors, MWBD, Talent for Annihilation, veiled with Criptec, is no joke. 40 S4 -2, with +1 to hit and 6s causing additional rolls. Then then have to be shifted, placed in cover and that requires volume of shots and decent AP
I like it!!! You would need to be mindful of them being charged the following turn so postioning
Would be really important and having a Counter charge unit near by any suggestions for the support unit
and for the best targets for the warriors to go for?
TommyBoy13 wrote: Agreed with folks ignoring Mepherit. 20x Warriors, MWBD, Talent for Annihilation, veiled with Criptec, is no joke. 40 S4 -2, with +1 to hit and 6s causing additional rolls. Then then have to be shifted, placed in cover and that requires volume of shots and decent AP
Mephrit is great for Warriors. The reason people are down on Mephrit is that it isn't a good fit for a lot of other units. If you are running 20 man warrior blobs then you really should be Mephrit, if you have 3x 10 Tesla Immortals it's probably not the best choice.
Mephrit is great for Warriors. The reason people are down on Mephrit is that it isn't a good fit for a lot of other units. If you are running 20 man warrior blobs then you really should be Mephrit, if you have 3x 10 Tesla Immortals it's probably not the best choice.
Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.
Inevitableq wrote: I will once again point out that MWBD is not a persistent effect as it has a built in end of duration. Szeras buff and orikan transformations are persistent effects. Will also point out again that the FAQ entry is specifically for strategems and is limiter for tide of traitors. Using veil on anything that has been MWBD will not remove the buff.
Szeras's buff says "for the rest of the battle." I see nothing in the FAQ that implies that would no longer work.
I'll continue to play it that way and simply not play with anyone that wouldn't, unless I see a rule that specifically delineates his buff not working with a Veiled unit. That seems pretty absurd to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.
Pet peeve of mine, but that's not what the word "useless" means. The word simply does not mean "not good enough in my eyes." Useless means "of absolutely no use."
For instance, Nihilahk is truly useless for Destroyers. The buff literally does nothing for them.
On the other hand, buffing 20 Warriors with AP -1 exactly within their rapid fire range is not useless. Is it potentially risky? Sure. Can you mitigate that risk if you have a fully functioning frontal lobe? Absolutely. Necron's have no shortage of units like FOs, TPs, Scarab and C'Tans that can crush in CC and keep your shooty mens alive, even if they are close to the enemy.
Also, 20 Meph warriors with TA and MWBD can knock out almost 13 MEq, on average, in one salvo. You should be able to blow away anything that could potentially threaten you in CC.
Szeras's buff says "for the rest of the battle." I see nothing in the FAQ that implies that would no longer work.
I'll continue to play it that way and simply not play with anyone that wouldn't, unless I see a rule that specifically delineates his buff not working with a Veiled unit. That seems pretty absurd to me.
Ghaz already quoted from the FAQs, scroll up a little.
Pet peeve of mine, but that's not what the word "useless" means. The word simply does not mean "not good enough in my eyes." Useless means "of absolutely no use."
Also, 20 Meph warriors with TA and MWBD can knock out almost 13 MEq, on average, in one salvo. You should be able to blow away anything that could potentially threaten you in CC.
Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects (for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of an ability)?
A: No.
What constitutes a 'persistent effect' is best discussed in another forum.
Also, not to be that guy, but the FAQ specifically says stratagem and not relic, which veil is. So the FAQ quite literally has no effect on Veil.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz already quoted from the FAQs, scroll up a little.
Right, which is why I wrote "I see nothing in that FAQ." Which means I read the FAQ. And found it had nothing to do with Szeras or Veil. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can only attack one unit with TA.
Incorrect:
Use this Stratagem before a MEPHRIT unit from your army attacks in the Shooting phase. Each time you make an unmodified hit roll of 6 for a model in that unit, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.
The additional hits have to target the unit they were generated against, that's the only limitation.
Use this Stratagem before a MEPHRIT unit from your army attacks in the Shooting phase. Each time you make an unmodified hit roll of 6 for a model in that unit, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.
The additional hits have to target the unit they were generated against, that's the only limitation.
How is this wrong ? You attack one unit, use TA, and you make additional hit rolls against that one unit only. So you are only attacking one unit with TA.
Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects (for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of an ability)?
A: No.
What constitutes a 'persistent effect' is best discussed in another forum.
Also, not to be that guy, but the FAQ specifically says stratagem and not relic, which veil is. So the FAQ quite literally has no effect on Veil.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz already quoted from the FAQs, scroll up a little.
Right, which is why I wrote "I see nothing in that FAQ." Which means I read the FAQ. And found it had nothing to do with Szeras or Veil. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can only attack one unit with TA.
Incorrect:
Use this Stratagem before a MEPHRIT unit from your army attacks in the Shooting phase. Each time you make an unmodified hit roll of 6 for a model in that unit, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.
The additional hits have to target the unit they were generated against, that's the only limitation.
I don't have the codex here. Does it carry over to the fighting phase too? (Probably not meant to, but what does the text say?)
Shadar_Logoth wrote: 20 Meph warriors with TA and MWBD can knock out almost 13 MEq, on average, in one salvo. You should be able to blow away anything that could potentially threaten you in CC.
Alright, let's take a closer look at that.
20 Warriors is 240 points.
We're assuming those 240 points worth of Warriors can kill roughly 13 MEQ in RF range if given MWBD and TfA, yes?
So now the question is, can anything else do the same job better?
For similar points we could get:
• 14 Immortals
• 7 or 8 Tomb Blades
• 5 Destroyers
Assuming all of these things get support from an HQ and strat, like the Warriors, how efficient would any of them be at killing MEQ?
Use this Stratagem before a MEPHRIT unit from your army attacks in the Shooting phase. Each time you make an unmodified hit roll of 6 for a model in that unit, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.
The additional hits have to target the unit they were generated against, that's the only limitation.
How is this wrong ? You attack one unit, use TA, and you make additional hit rolls against that one unit only. So you are only attacking one unit with TA.
Shadar_Logoth wrote: 20 Meph warriors with TA and MWBD can knock out almost 13 MEq, on average, in one salvo. You should be able to blow away anything that could potentially threaten you in CC.
Alright, let's take a closer look at that.
20 Warriors is 240 points.
We're assuming those 240 points worth of Warriors can kill roughly 13 MEQ in RF range if given MWBD and TfA, yes?
So now the question is, can anything else do the same job better?
For similar points we could get:
• 14 Immortals
• 7 or 8 Tomb Blades
• 5 Destroyers
Assuming all of these things get support from an HQ and strat, like the Warriors, how efficient would any of them be at killing MEQ?
This is besides the point. You might actually need warriors in that spot. Now you just need to decide how to make them better.
For similar points we could get:
• 14 Immortals
• 7 or 8 Tomb Blades
• 5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers with EP and MWBD kill about 10.8 MEq
14 Immortals, using The Phaeron's WIll on MWBD to buff "both" units, and Nihilek standing still (just trying to assume best case scenario and an equitable CP investment), kills about 9.
Mephrit is great for Warriors. The reason people are down on Mephrit is that it isn't a good fit for a lot of other units. If you are running 20 man warrior blobs then you really should be Mephrit, if you have 3x 10 Tesla Immortals it's probably not the best choice.
Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.
Well, if you're gonna piss over everyones logic, then take Anrakyr. Or I dont know, fall back with one blob and give the other MWBD and shoot the ones out in the open.
10 Mephrit Gauss Immortals with TA and MWBD kill exactly the same amount as 20 warriors, for 70 points cheaper, so there is a pretty good argument to just use the Immortals in that case.
The Warriors do give you a better thresh hold of surviving long enough to get mileage out of RP and can take advantage of Ghost Arks. They also are better against 5+ or worse saves.
Is killing MEQs really such a priority though? I barely see them on the local tables. People tend to either stick with 4-6 point chaff, or 50+ point models with big guns, powerfists, mobility, and/or invul saves. I've been thinking of switching from Immortals to Warriors to deal with the masses of T3 Guardsmen and Cultists and T7 tanks and monsters people are bringing.
By the way, I'm sure this has been dealt with many times already, but I still have to ask: Is there a use for the Annihilation Barge at all these days?
Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.
I think this has probably been covered already but: In the post you quoted I said "IF you are using 20 man warrior blobs". I was not suggesting that you should take 20 man Warrior blobs. However, if you do, you need to be getting into rapid fire range at which point Mephrit is very useful. Warriors not getting into rapid fire range are a horrible waster of points. I honestly don't thing there is any contest for Dynasty choice in a Silver Tide list, Mephrit is the clear winner.
There are of course risks involved with getting that close, and you have to build your list with that in mind. If those Warriors are supported by Anrakyr, and you use the Disruption Field(?) strat, they will have 40 S5 attacks hitting on 2's.
The Annihilation Barge has some utility. It's far from one of our top performers, but the S7 gun can help weaken some of the tougher units you'll face, and QS makes it pretty durable. Its biggest issue is that you're paying for Tesla, but you don't have any way to buff its attack that I'm aware of, so it's pretty easy for your opponent to negate that with to-hit penalties.
EnTyme wrote: The Annihilation Barge has some utility. It's far from one of our top performers, but the S7 gun can help weaken some of the tougher units you'll face, and QS makes it pretty durable. Its biggest issue is that you're paying for Tesla, but you don't have any way to buff its attack that I'm aware of, so it's pretty easy for your opponent to negate that with to-hit penalties.
Methodical Destruction can buff their hits. Sautekh is the best trait for them anyway as you want to be able to take the Gauss Cannon and move and shoot.
Mephrit is great for Warriors. The reason people are down on Mephrit is that it isn't a good fit for a lot of other units. If you are running 20 man warrior blobs then you really should be Mephrit, if you have 3x 10 Tesla Immortals it's probably not the best choice.
Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.
Would it be worth a patrol Crip and the warriors?? Just for that
Was thinking that an unexpected strat pop would be the +1 St one that would be funny
Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.
I think this has probably been covered already but: In the post you quoted I said "IF you are using 20 man warrior blobs". I was not suggesting that you should take 20 man Warrior blobs. However, if you do, you need to be getting into rapid fire range at which point Mephrit is very useful. Warriors not getting into rapid fire range are a horrible waster of points. I honestly don't thing there is any contest for Dynasty choice in a Silver Tide list, Mephrit is the clear winner.
There are of course risks involved with getting that close, and you have to build your list with that in mind. If those Warriors are supported by Anrakyr, and you use the Disruption Field(?) strat, they will have 40 S5 attacks hitting on 2's.
I am desperate to use Anrakyr what would you suggest the best way to have him support especially if your vailing a unit this is really bugging me
Across a list to keep the buffs continuous if that makes sense
I am desperate to use Anrakyr what would you suggest the best way to have him support especially if your vailing a unit this is really bugging me
Across a list to keep the buffs continuous if that makes sense
Anrakyr
Cryptek + Chrono + Veil
20x Warriors
20x Warriors
Ghost Ark
Deceiver
Obviously you need a 3rd troop choice and some more stuff. The Deceiver, and the Veil help you get into rapids. It needs to be played with care to prevent warriors getting wiped in one turn, and to keep them in range of the characters auras. I've found lists with this core to be reasonably effective and entertaining to play.
Shadar_Logoth wrote: 20 Meph warriors with TA and MWBD can knock out almost 13 MEq, on average, in one salvo. You should be able to blow away anything that could potentially threaten you in CC.
Alright, let's take a closer look at that.
20 Warriors is 240 points.
We're assuming those 240 points worth of Warriors can kill roughly 13 MEQ in RF range if given MWBD and TfA, yes?
So now the question is, can anything else do the same job better?
For similar points we could get:
• 14 Immortals
• 7 or 8 Tomb Blades
• 5 Destroyers
Assuming all of these things get support from an HQ and strat, like the Warriors, how efficient would any of them be at killing MEQ?
Destroyers don't count. You're going to be using Extermination Protocols on Destroyers somewhere else anyway.
Okapi wrote: I've been thinking of switching from Immortals to Warriors to deal with the masses of T3 Guardsmen and Cultists and T7 tanks and monsters people are bringing.
Didn't somebody do the math on that already?
(and found that equal points Immortals out perform equal points Warriors against chaff)
ie.
40 Warriors (20x2) : 480 points
or
28 Immortals (10+9+9) : 476 points
vs
GEQ
I'm assuming the Immortals had Tesla and were MWBD'd, but maybe there was stats for both weapons and non buffed state. Not sure what the Dynasties were but I'd assume either Sautekh or Mephrit.
I am desperate to use Anrakyr what would you suggest the best way to have him support especially if your vailing a unit this is really bugging me
Across a list to keep the buffs continuous if that makes sense
Anrakyr
Cryptek + Chrono + Veil
20x Warriors
20x Warriors
Ghost Ark
Deceiver
Obviously you need a 3rd troop choice and some more stuff. The Deceiver, and the Veil help you get into rapids. It needs to be played with care to prevent warriors getting wiped in one turn, and to keep them in range of the characters auras. I've found lists with this core to be reasonably effective and entertaining to play.
Was trying to not use the deceiver as it relys on the first turn too much in saying that I really like that core
You could be cheeky and have Novhk or is that a waste let’s face it they will get charged
Assuming all of these things get support from an HQand strat, like the Warriors, how efficient would any of them be at killing MEQ?
Destroyers don't count. You're going to be using Extermination Protocols on Destroyers somewhere else anyway.
Why would Destroyers not count? They're using a strat, and so are the Warriors. The proposed exercise was killing MEQ. It's a comparison of effectiveness vs resources invested. In what way would they "not count"?
Okapi wrote: I've been thinking of switching from Immortals to Warriors to deal with the masses of T3 Guardsmen and Cultists and T7 tanks and monsters people are bringing.
Didn't somebody do the math on that already?
(and found that equal points Immortals out perform equal points Warriors against chaff)
ie.
40 Warriors (20x2) : 480 points
or
28 Immortals (10+9+9) : 476 points
vs
GEQ
I'm assuming the Immortals had Tesla and were MWBD'd, but maybe there was stats for both weapons and non buffed state. Not sure what the Dynasties were but I'd assume either Sautekh or Mephrit.
Interesting T7 tanks are my Bain at the moment rhino and razorback Spam just not had a good solid solution that doesn’t get destroyed
Quick by them themselves destroyers? Not sure if it’s the best use DDAdef semi unreliable when you have 12 Lascannons shooting at your stuff
Interesting T7 tanks are my Bain at the moment rhino and razorback Spam just not had a good solid solution that doesn’t get destroyed
Quick by them themselves destroyers? Not sure if it’s the best use DDAdef semi unreliable when you have 12 Lascannons shooting at your stuff
DDAs love lascannons. Roll a 6 on damage, only a 16,7% chance making it through QS. If the damage is lower, pop the -1 to QS roll strat. Is your DDA damaged ? Use damage control to ignore the damage. Use a repair cryptek/spyder to fix it. While he shoots your DDA(s) the rest of your army can move forward unharmed. Tie those vehicles up in melee with wraith/scarabs.
Okapi wrote: I've been thinking of switching from Immortals to Warriors to deal with the masses of T3 Guardsmen and Cultists and T7 tanks and monsters people are bringing.
Didn't somebody do the math on that already?
(and found that equal points Immortals out perform equal points Warriors against chaff)
ie.
40 Warriors (20x2) : 480 points
or
28 Immortals (10+9+9) : 476 points
vs
GEQ
I'm assuming the Immortals had Tesla and were MWBD'd, but maybe there was stats for both weapons and non buffed state. Not sure what the Dynasties were but I'd assume either Sautekh or Mephrit.
Just to keep it simple I'll compare 17 Warriors versus 12 Immortals, and when factoring in MWBD I'll only give it to 10 Immortals, assuming a target with T3 and 5+ save:
Interesting T7 tanks are my Bain at the moment rhino and razorback Spam just not had a good solid solution that doesn’t get destroyed
Quick by them themselves destroyers? Not sure if it’s the best use DDAdef semi unreliable when you have 12 Lascannons shooting at your stuff
DDAs love lascannons. Roll a 6 on damage, only a 16,7% chance making it through QS. If the damage is lower, pop the -1 to QS roll strat. Is your DDA damaged ? Use damage control to ignore the damage. Use a repair cryptek/spyder to fix it. While he shoots your DDA(s) the rest of your army can move forward unharmed. Tie those vehicles up in melee with wraith/scarabs.
Yeah that sounds great!!!
the whole melee thing is tough to get up there fast enough auto advance is good was thinking of deep striking Scarabs just don’t like
The poor chance of making the 9” charge and with a re roll that’s 2 CP gone any other suggestions
Okapi wrote: I've been thinking of switching from Immortals to Warriors to deal with the masses of T3 Guardsmen and Cultists and T7 tanks and monsters people are bringing.
Didn't somebody do the math on that already?
(and found that equal points Immortals out perform equal points Warriors against chaff)
ie.
40 Warriors (20x2) : 480 points
or
28 Immortals (10+9+9) : 476 points
vs
GEQ
I'm assuming the Immortals had Tesla and were MWBD'd, but maybe there was stats for both weapons and non buffed state. Not sure what the Dynasties were but I'd assume either Sautekh or Mephrit.
Just to keep it simple I'll compare 17 Warriors versus 12 Immortals, and when factoring in MWBD I'll only give it to 10 Immortals, assuming a target with T3 and 5+ save:
Seems like the Warriors reign supreme with or without MWBD
The immortal mwbd calculation seems wrong, shouldn't have to be 1/2 on there, I'm getting 15.11 at dice-hammer.com
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also exemplifying with T3 is misleading since we're comparing S4 against S5; Toughness 4 and up Tesla's S5 helps packing extra punch, not to mention that they can stay safely at a 24" distance
The immortal mwbd calculation seems wrong, shouldn't have to be 1/2 on there, I'm getting 15.11 at dice-hammer.com
I don't think so. It accounts for the non Tesla hits. So 1/3 are Tesla, 1/2 Are not Tesla, and 1/6 are misses.
Also exemplifying with T3 is misleading since we're comparing S4 against S5; Toughness 4 and up Tesla's S5 helps packing extra punch, not to mention that they can stay safely at a 24" distance
The question we were specifically addressing is GEq. MEq and T5 will generally favor Tesla. T6 and 7 I believe favors the Warriors again, and then T8 favors Tesla.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm getting 15.11 at dice hammer as well, though. Hmm. Not sure what's missing.
Assuming all of these things get support from an HQand strat, like the Warriors, how efficient would any of them be at killing MEQ?
Destroyers don't count. You're going to be using Extermination Protocols on Destroyers somewhere else anyway.
Why would Destroyers not count? They're using a strat, and so are the Warriors. The proposed exercise was killing MEQ. It's a comparison of effectiveness vs resources invested. In what way would they "not count"?
Because you can't have 2 units of Destroyers using Extermination Protocols.
I redid it in the calculator and got 15.11. Must have plugged in a number wrong.
Makes more sense, though. Tesla gets a ton of mileage out of MWBD. It also gets seriously nerfed by -1 to hit, though, which is a pretty prevalent factor.
Shadar_Logoth wrote: I redid it in the calculator and got 15.11. Must have plugged in a number wrong.
Makes more sense, though. Tesla gets a ton of mileage out of MWBD. It also gets seriously nerfed by -1 to hit, though, which is a pretty prevalent factor.
Ah I see how you did the 1/2 fraction for plain hits. My calc I always write Tesla as additional hits, to the normal hits ( both approaches equivalent of course)
Was trying to not use the deceiver as it relys on the first turn too much in saying that I really like that core
You could be cheeky and have Novhk or is that a waste let’s face it they will get charged
Novokh is another option actually. If I was trying to run pure Novokh my troops would be similar to that.
With the Deceiver you don't have to use him as an alpha strike trick. He can do useful things going second. You may still want to advance deploy the warriors going second against some armies, or you could use his ability defensivly to move to one flank or another. As I said, you have to play a warrior horde carefully so that a unit can't be wiped in one turn. If you end up going second the Deceiver can shuffle things around a bit to prevent that happening on your opponents first turn.
He also goes well with the list simply by being a nasty character hiding in a bunch of infantry.
Assuming all of these things get support from an HQand strat, like the Warriors, how efficient would any of them be at killing MEQ?
Destroyers don't count. You're going to be using Extermination Protocols on Destroyers somewhere else anyway.
Why would Destroyers not count? They're using a strat, and so are the Warriors. The proposed exercise was killing MEQ. It's a comparison of effectiveness vs resources invested. In what way would they "not count"?
Because you can't have 2 units of Destroyers using Extermination Protocols.
?!?
Where are you getting two units of Destroyers from?
This comparison was using a single unit of five.
ower of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor
