Um, yeah...... Got to say that codex index is a little disappointing. World Eaters all over again. Really giving me second thoughts on jumping on the pre-order now.
Seems like Hellbrutes and Predators are likely up for resculpts or Legends in the future. The Forgefiend exclusion is just weird though. I can't wrap my head around that one.
GW has done it before - a good few AoS armies had shared models that were then split. Sometimes it means that GW is going to split the model formally in the semi near future into two sculpts; sometimes its just random; sometimes it means one half is going away.
Overread wrote: GW has done it before - a good few AoS armies had shared models that were then split. Sometimes it means that GW is going to split the model formally in the semi near future into two sculpts; sometimes its just random; sometimes it means one half is going away.
I sort of oddly wonder if it might be time for the dinobot to get a facelift alongside a new defiler.
Overread wrote: GW has done it before - a good few AoS armies had shared models that were then split. Sometimes it means that GW is going to split the model formally in the semi near future into two sculpts; sometimes its just random; sometimes it means one half is going away.
Weren't all those cases where they were former WH models from one army that ended up split across multiple armies in AoS? Black Knights and Hex Wraiths are one example, where AoS ended up putting them in different armies. The Mutalith is a dual-kit but wouldn't make sense for TS to get the Slaughterbrute as it's more of a Khorne model. The Maulerfiend/Forgefiend situation is just plain weird.
I also can't help but wonder what the niche this army is trying to fill.
Is this supposed to be the finesse close combat army, compared to the Khorne brute force close combat army?
From what I can tell every so often GW does a cutting down edition where unit sizes get smaller. Then we go through two or three growth ones where things get bigger and bigger then another slapdown.
It kind of makes sense - ride a wave of popularity for a while then slap things down so that newbies don't get cut out entirely.
I also think that with the super-fast movement of rules editions; having smaller numbers in units helps avoid two things GW has issues with in freeform moving armies
1) Daisychain units that spread out and carry things like auras or board control way beyond what is expected
2) Makes it easier to balance in elite and single medium size models. Because now they don't have to compete with 20-30-40 model units of regular troops going against them and just being more points efficient because of their sheer weight of numbers.
In this one instance, the six size squad makes sense, since that's Slaanesh's sacred number. Of course, we won't be able to take the basic squads or daemonettes in anything fewer than ten, so it's just a happy coincidence.
No hellbrute is pretty astonishing. The dreadnough/hellbrute is pretty iconic space marine type unit. No predator is also very perplexing as again, that is an old school unit that is pretty iconic. It makes me very worried for my Thousand Sons. It also put a damper on starting a EC army as these were some units I could use as filler until the range is expanded. Guess I will wait for 11th (hopefully with a release of new models like a sonic dreadnought)
xeen wrote: No hellbrute is pretty astonishing. The dreadnough/hellbrute is pretty iconic space marine type unit. No predator is also very perplexing as again, that is an old school unit that is pretty iconic. It makes me very worried for my Thousand Sons. It also put a damper on starting a EC army as these were some units I could use as filler until the range is expanded. Guess I will wait for 11th (hopefully with a release of new models like a sonic dreadnought)
I assume new Hellbrute is high up on the rescuplt list. The current one is online only and out of stock. Not something to create demand for in a "new" faction before it gets replaced.
I remain mildly disappointed in the lack of Daemon Engines.
I know Vashtorr, and the Negavolt Cultists of BSF hint at Dark Mechanicum coming at some point.
But come on Nurgle is on two (lawnmowers and flying thing), and everyone else is on Nowt in terms of God Aligned. And even for Chaos Undecided, there’s just the Defiler (resculpt pls) and the dual kit,
xeen wrote: No hellbrute is pretty astonishing. The dreadnough/hellbrute is pretty iconic space marine type unit. No predator is also very perplexing as again, that is an old school unit that is pretty iconic. It makes me very worried for my Thousand Sons. It also put a damper on starting a EC army as these were some units I could use as filler until the range is expanded. Guess I will wait for 11th (hopefully with a release of new models like a sonic dreadnought)
I assume new Hellbrute is high up on the rescuplt list. The current one is online only and out of stock. Not something to create demand for in a "new" faction before it gets replaced.
Tbh it might be that there will be an equivalent per legion, hard to track where/who the sold helbrutes go to as-is.
xeen wrote: No hellbrute is pretty astonishing. The dreadnough/hellbrute is pretty iconic space marine type unit. No predator is also very perplexing as again, that is an old school unit that is pretty iconic. It makes me very worried for my Thousand Sons. It also put a damper on starting a EC army as these were some units I could use as filler until the range is expanded. Guess I will wait for 11th (hopefully with a release of new models like a sonic dreadnought)
I assume new Hellbrute is high up on the rescuplt list. The current one is online only and out of stock. Not something to create demand for in a "new" faction before it gets replaced.
Tbh it might be that there will be an equivalent per legion, hard to track where/who the sold helbrutes go to as-is.
Let's face it, it'll be one kit with a small selection of god-specific icons to glue on.
xeen wrote: No hellbrute is pretty astonishing. The dreadnough/hellbrute is pretty iconic space marine type unit. No predator is also very perplexing as again, that is an old school unit that is pretty iconic. It makes me very worried for my Thousand Sons. It also put a damper on starting a EC army as these were some units I could use as filler until the range is expanded. Guess I will wait for 11th (hopefully with a release of new models like a sonic dreadnought)
I assume new Hellbrute is high up on the rescuplt list. The current one is online only and out of stock. Not something to create demand for in a "new" faction before it gets replaced.
Tbh it might be that there will be an equivalent per legion, hard to track where/who the sold helbrutes go to as-is.
Let's face it, it'll be one kit with a small selection of god-specific icons to glue on.
Got to say, the helbrute being out of the codex makes me worry for my Deathguard helbrute.
I don't have any predators so selfishly not worried about them going.
Only thing making me hope DG keep them is that EC got other vehicles that DG don't have access to.
This contents leak makes me very keen to see the Tzeench book when it comes out. Was always thinking of souping cultists, tzaangors, CSM and daemons in the same list. Take that tracked Necormunda hauler model and make it their only vehicle besides a CSM Lord who rides on a HH-era CSM Fighter (on foot in-game). My idea of a badass Credo army
Still haven't seen a daemon datasheet, but they appear to me more in Drukhari limbo than I expected. Definitely more limited integration than I thought.
I know Vashtorr, and the Negavolt Cultists of BSF hint at Dark Mechanicum coming at some point.
But come on Nurgle is on two (lawnmowers and flying thing), and everyone else is on Nowt in terms of God Aligned. And even for Chaos Undecided, there’s just the Defiler (resculpt pls) and the dual kit,
Nurgle has three, and how did you forget the Lord of Skulls?
I know Vashtorr, and the Negavolt Cultists of BSF hint at Dark Mechanicum coming at some point.
But come on Nurgle is on two (lawnmowers and flying thing), and everyone else is on Nowt in terms of God Aligned. And even for Chaos Undecided, there’s just the Defiler (resculpt pls) and the dual kit,
Nurgle has three, and how did you forget the Lord of Skulls?
Because I’m old and my memory is failing? I dunno!
I know Vashtorr, and the Negavolt Cultists of BSF hint at Dark Mechanicum coming at some point.
But come on Nurgle is on two (lawnmowers and flying thing), and everyone else is on Nowt in terms of God Aligned. And even for Chaos Undecided, there’s just the Defiler (resculpt pls) and the dual kit,
Nurgle has three, and how did you forget the Lord of Skulls?
Because I’m old and my memory is failing? I dunno!
You can't be old, you're my age... and possibly BorderCountesses age and she remembered.
I know Vashtorr, and the Negavolt Cultists of BSF hint at Dark Mechanicum coming at some point.
But come on Nurgle is on two (lawnmowers and flying thing), and everyone else is on Nowt in terms of God Aligned. And even for Chaos Undecided, there’s just the Defiler (resculpt pls) and the dual kit,
Nurgle has three, and how did you forget the Lord of Skulls?
Because I’m old and my memory is failing? I dunno!
You can't be old, you're my age... and possibly BorderCountesses age and she remembered.
We need another excuse.
You old chaps all seem to have forgotten the venomcrawler, too.
I feel like that would've fit better in with the EC than a maulerfiend. Sadly, it's stuck in a bundle with Obliterators. Which, to be fair, isn't something super Emperors Childreny (even though one does appear in the most recent EC book...)
I know Vashtorr, and the Negavolt Cultists of BSF hint at Dark Mechanicum coming at some point.
But come on Nurgle is on two (lawnmowers and flying thing), and everyone else is on Nowt in terms of God Aligned. And even for Chaos Undecided, there’s just the Defiler (resculpt pls) and the dual kit,
Nurgle has three, and how did you forget the Lord of Skulls?
Because I’m old and my memory is failing? I dunno!
You can't be old, you're my age... and possibly BorderCountesses age and she remembered.
We need another excuse.
You old chaps all seem to have forgotten the venomcrawler, too.
GaroRobe wrote: Sadly, it's stuck in a bundle with Obliterators. Which, to be fair, isn't something super Emperors Childreny (even though one does appear in the most recent EC book...)
Mutated dudes whose flesh is bursting with phallic weaponry isn't EC-y?
For once, dakka is proving to actually be the least negative space online about all this.
I've had/have world eaters, I've had 2 years of vindicator puns made, I sort of get any upset.
That said, GW have refine what they want EC to be in 40k, they've orchestrated a book to fit that image. A lot of people pset are who wanted to play in a way that is now *not* what emperors children are (gunlines and/or CSM units).
However the missing units and their pre-existing army has been a CSM army for the last few decades, it still works perfectly fine as a CSM in pink/purple. All is not lost, you can also house rule stuff in outside of events.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Daemons article is up, it's very ambiguous imo:
Aye, I realy wish they'd stop dancing around the question and just say whether there'll be a Daemons 'dex or not - and whether that means the units that don't get printed in a god-aligned Legion 'dex are off to Legends.
Dysartes wrote: Aye, I realy wish they'd stop dancing around the question and just say whether there'll be a Daemons 'dex or not - and whether that means the units that don't get printed in a god-aligned Legion 'dex are off to Legends.
I thought it was already stated that Daemons weren't getting a dex. The question has been whether their Index will remain legal going forward.
It FEELS like this is saying cross demon armies are out. The leaked datasheets having their own faction keyword and the article implies using the Legion of Excess faction keyword in the Legion of Excess detachment. If the datasheets that have the Chaos Daemons keyword goes away, it locks them out of the mixed god options.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Follow up: On a neat bit of future proofing, I just noticed the Daemons Grotsmas Detatchments all have two faction icons.
So as it stands, the question of cross daemon play comes down entirely to whether or not the Index datasheets remain. At this point I'd probably guess not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm.... Grotsmas detatchments do rely on the Legions Daemonica keyword a bit to much to work with these datasheets. Maybe they do just keep the Index around. Weird....
Dudeface wrote: For once, dakka is proving to actually be the least negative space online about all this.
I've had/have world eaters, I've had 2 years of vindicator puns made, I sort of get any upset.
That said, GW have refine what they want EC to be in 40k, they've orchestrated a book to fit that image. A lot of people pset are who wanted to play in a way that is now *not* what emperors children are (gunlines and/or CSM units).
However the missing units and their pre-existing army has been a CSM army for the last few decades, it still works perfectly fine as a CSM in pink/purple. All is not lost, you can also house rule stuff in outside of events.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Daemons article is up, it's very ambiguous imo:
Why can't EC field gunline armies? Their most iconic unit is made up of guys with guns. The stratagem Endless Cacophony allowed you to shoot twice and was used a lot on Obliterators. This new style of fighting the GW is forcing on the Emperor's Children is not necessarily more accurate, only more flanderized.
I know Vashtorr, and the Negavolt Cultists of BSF hint at Dark Mechanicum coming at some point.
But come on Nurgle is on two (lawnmowers and flying thing), and everyone else is on Nowt in terms of God Aligned. And even for Chaos Undecided, there’s just the Defiler (resculpt pls) and the dual kit,
Nurgle has three, and how did you forget the Lord of Skulls?
Because I’m old and my memory is failing? I dunno!
You can't be old, you're my age... and possibly BorderCountesses age and she remembered.
We need another excuse.
You old chaps all seem to have forgotten the venomcrawler, too.
Get off my lawn, whippersnapper!
You're all talking about new-fangled daemon engines and here I am wondering why none of you mentioned Brass Scorpions.
Dudeface wrote: For once, dakka is proving to actually be the least negative space online about all this.
I've had/have world eaters, I've had 2 years of vindicator puns made, I sort of get any upset.
That said, GW have refine what they want EC to be in 40k, they've orchestrated a book to fit that image. A lot of people pset are who wanted to play in a way that is now *not* what emperors children are (gunlines and/or CSM units).
However the missing units and their pre-existing army has been a CSM army for the last few decades, it still works perfectly fine as a CSM in pink/purple. All is not lost, you can also house rule stuff in outside of events.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Daemons article is up, it's very ambiguous imo:
Why can't EC field gunline armies? Their most iconic unit is made up of guys with guns. The stratagem Endless Cacophony allowed you to shoot twice and was used a lot on Obliterators. This new style of fighting the GW is forcing on the Emperor's Children is not necessarily more accurate, only more flanderized.
Yes, that's what I said and a good example of the sort of anger spammed everywhere else.
Dysartes wrote: Aye, I realy wish they'd stop dancing around the question and just say whether there'll be a Daemons 'dex or not - and whether that means the units that don't get printed in a god-aligned Legion 'dex are off to Legends.
I thought it was already stated that Daemons weren't getting a dex. The question has been whether their Index will remain legal going forward.
I'm not certain, but I don't recall them explicitly stating no Daemons book, just that we were going to see Daemons in the god-aligned Legion books.
And given how small a subset of the Slaaneshi daemons made it into the EC book...
Dudeface wrote: For once, dakka is proving to actually be the least negative space online about all this.
I've had/have world eaters, I've had 2 years of vindicator puns made, I sort of get any upset.
That said, GW have refine what they want EC to be in 40k, they've orchestrated a book to fit that image. A lot of people pset are who wanted to play in a way that is now *not* what emperors children are (gunlines and/or CSM units).
However the missing units and their pre-existing army has been a CSM army for the last few decades, it still works perfectly fine as a CSM in pink/purple. All is not lost, you can also house rule stuff in outside of events.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Daemons article is up, it's very ambiguous imo:
Why can't EC field gunline armies? Their most iconic unit is made up of guys with guns. The stratagem Endless Cacophony allowed you to shoot twice and was used a lot on Obliterators. This new style of fighting the GW is forcing on the Emperor's Children is not necessarily more accurate, only more flanderized.
Yes, that's what I said and a good example of the sort of anger spammed everywhere else.
Ok, I misunderstood. I don't understand why specialized CSM armies can't get the same treatment as SM, being able to take almost anything from the main SM codex, with exceptions for obvious lore (no psykers for WE, very few flesh-and-blood units for TS besides cultists, etc.).
I think its an attempt to make them actually different as opposed to "the same army with a different paint scheme and shoulderpads"
This is just the first step of change and its clear GW focused very much on the marine component of the swapover with models. We kind of saw the same with Slaanesh in AoS - first we got a LOT of demonic leaders and nothing on the troops then we got a LOT of mortal troop followers and updates there.
So chances are this is not a one-and-done but part of an ongoing change and experiment. GW will likely flesh out EC with more and more options as time passes.
IT is curious that they lost one or two options along the way; maybe they really want them to be the glass-canon close combat focused army or all-comers; or perhaps they've new models in mind that might come out in months/years down the road etc...
LunarSol wrote: So as it stands, the question of cross daemon play comes down entirely to whether or not the Index datasheets remain. At this point I'd probably guess not.
It can't be out because Be'lakor is a thing. Unless GW squats brand new big centrepiece model, I can't see that going away.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Why can't EC field gunline armies? Their most iconic unit is made up of guys with guns. The stratagem Endless Cacophony allowed you to shoot twice and was used a lot on Obliterators. This new style of fighting the GW is forcing on the Emperor's Children is not necessarily more accurate, only more flanderized.
How is it more iconic/flanderized?
No, seriously, if there was anything flanderized it was WAAAC army spammed by thatguys around broken stratagem, army that looked nothing like anything CSM ever fielded in any GW book, be it game or fluff one. I am strangely sure if that stratagem buffed melee instead the 'iconic' thing would be instead Land Raiders full of Chosen with thunderhammers or other such nonsense.
If anything, looking at HH era EC and new 40K ones, I really like how they look like the exact same army, just Chaosified. I really despised nonsense watering of CSM with loyalist stuff due to endless WAAAC whining (say, all the wargear CSM didn't have for six editions because it was either post Heresy invention or too hard to maintain for nomadic warbands suddenly being mass produced and handed out like candy). Especially idiotic thunder hammer access on every Chaos lord because one named, very specific Black Legion dude from BSF captured and desecrated one at great expense to get advantage over all other BL lords, which then some genius writer decided should apply to not only every generic lord but also all of their sidekicks for no reason, rules openly gaking on very fluff of said model/faction I love the fact no EC model has thunder hammers/storm bolters/storm shields/other gak all the really iconic Chaos depictions missed, this is exactly how the Chaos armies were supposed to look like.
Now, if only we could go back to every CSM wearing patchwork looted armor made up from whatever replacements they could scrounge (and bits of chainmail where they couldn't) instead of every traitor walking in what looks like pristine artificer plate rigidly adhering to a single armor mark in whole warband, it would be really great...
LunarSol wrote: So as it stands, the question of cross daemon play comes down entirely to whether or not the Index datasheets remain. At this point I'd probably guess not.
It can't be out because Be'lakor is a thing. Unless GW squats brand new big centrepiece model, I can't see that going away.
I could see him going in Knights or making a special detachment with him that lets you take a certain amount of points of each of these new faction keywords. I'd certainly not at all be sad to see some kind of Agents of Chaos dex though that had daemons and cultists and stuff.
If anything, looking at HH era EC and new 40K ones, I really like how they look like the exact same army, just Chaosified. I really despised nonsense watering of CSM with loyalist stuff due to endless WAAAC whining (say, all the wargear CSM didn't have for six editions because it was either post Heresy invention or too hard to maintain for nomadic warbands suddenly being mass produced and handed out like candy). Especially idiotic thunder hammer access on every Chaos lord because one named, very specific Black Legion dude from BSF captured and desecrated one at great expense to get advantage over all other BL lords, which then some genius writer decided should apply to not only every generic lord but also all of their sidekicks for no reason, rules openly gaking on very fluff of said model/faction I love the fact no EC model has thunder hammers/storm bolters/storm shields/other gak all the really iconic Chaos depictions missed, this is exactly how the Chaos armies were supposed to look like.
Now, if only we could go back to every CSM wearing patchwork looted armor made up from whatever replacements they could scrounge (and bits of chainmail where they couldn't) instead of every traitor walking in what looks like pristine artificer plate rigidly adhering to a single armor mark in whole warband, it would be really great...
I totally agree, I never understood why any force that aligned itself with "Chaos" would decide to all have matching outfits.
"Alright, Jerry, go to the Dark Mechanicus and make sure that every marine under our command has a large pair of bat ears on their helmets. We're going to be raiding Imperial worlds and we need to put on a nice uniformed front."
Dudeface wrote: For once, dakka is proving to actually be the least negative space online about all this.
I've had/have world eaters, I've had 2 years of vindicator puns made, I sort of get any upset.
That said, GW have refine what they want EC to be in 40k, they've orchestrated a book to fit that image. A lot of people pset are who wanted to play in a way that is now *not* what emperors children are (gunlines and/or CSM units).
However the missing units and their pre-existing army has been a CSM army for the last few decades, it still works perfectly fine as a CSM in pink/purple. All is not lost, you can also house rule stuff in outside of events.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Daemons article is up, it's very ambiguous imo:
Why can't EC field gunline armies? Their most iconic unit is made up of guys with guns. The stratagem Endless Cacophony allowed you to shoot twice and was used a lot on Obliterators. This new style of fighting the GW is forcing on the Emperor's Children is not necessarily more accurate, only more flanderized.
Yes, that's what I said and a good example of the sort of anger spammed everywhere else.
Ok, I misunderstood. I don't understand why specialized CSM armies can't get the same treatment as SM, being able to take almost anything from the main SM codex, with exceptions for obvious lore (no psykers for WE, very few flesh-and-blood units for TS besides cultists, etc.).
Because the entire game has suffered at the hands of Marines having a selection of "Marines +1" game design choices for years. This is better.
If anything, looking at HH era EC and new 40K ones, I really like how they look like the exact same army, just Chaosified. I really despised nonsense watering of CSM with loyalist stuff due to endless WAAAC whining (say, all the wargear CSM didn't have for six editions because it was either post Heresy invention or too hard to maintain for nomadic warbands suddenly being mass produced and handed out like candy). Especially idiotic thunder hammer access on every Chaos lord because one named, very specific Black Legion dude from BSF captured and desecrated one at great expense to get advantage over all other BL lords, which then some genius writer decided should apply to not only every generic lord but also all of their sidekicks for no reason, rules openly gaking on very fluff of said model/faction I love the fact no EC model has thunder hammers/storm bolters/storm shields/other gak all the really iconic Chaos depictions missed, this is exactly how the Chaos armies were supposed to look like.
Now, if only we could go back to every CSM wearing patchwork looted armor made up from whatever replacements they could scrounge (and bits of chainmail where they couldn't) instead of every traitor walking in what looks like pristine artificer plate rigidly adhering to a single armor mark in whole warband, it would be really great...
I totally agree, I never understood why any force that aligned itself with "Chaos" would decide to all have matching outfits.
"Alright, Jerry, go to the Dark Mechanicus and make sure that every marine under our command has a large pair of bat ears on their helmets. We're going to be raiding Imperial worlds and we need to put on a nice uniformed front."
Totally agree. It pretty silly when you consider the chaos gods have their favourite colour and their favourite number they are obsessing about. But then again, perhaps its just the followers that are obsessing over every detail of their patron ruinous power in the faint hope that they will be noticed.
Again, those are chaos space marine units, there hasn't been an Emperors Children codex to lose anything from. I also know you've been around long enough to know this isn't the first time this has happened, so shouldn't be a surprise.
Some of that is incredibly easy to explain away, some of it lacks any notable fluff to back up being kept, some of it is honestly a bit weird they don't have them. None of that changes the core truth this is a new army and GW are picking units to fit their design view.
Saying 'well, they had to deny access to more units than are in the new codex in total because they have to be arbitrarily different to justify them being separate, and they have to be separate because Pink' is not compelling to me.
Dudeface wrote: there hasn't been an Emperors Children codex to lose anything from
Get Rekt Pink Spiky Marine players. Your faction hasn't existed until now.
Dudeface wrote: I also know you've been around long enough to know this isn't the first time this has happened, so shouldn't be a surprise
I've been saying that this was going to happen since Blue Spiky Marines got their own book. It isn't a surprise to me. That doesn't mean that it isn't hot garbage on multiple levels.
Dudeface wrote: GW are picking units to fit their design view.
They're picking units to sell more toys. Get real.
Saying 'well, they had to deny access to more units than are in the new codex in total because they have to be arbitrarily different to justify them being separate, and they have to be separate because Pink' is not compelling to me.
Dudeface wrote: there hasn't been an Emperors Children codex to lose anything from
Get Rekt Pink Spiky Marine players. Your faction hasn't existed until now.
Dudeface wrote: I also know you've been around long enough to know this isn't the first time this has happened, so shouldn't be a surprise
I've been saying that this was going to happen since Blue Spiky Marines got their own book. It isn't a surprise to me. That doesn't mean that it isn't hot garbage on multiple levels.
Dudeface wrote: GW are picking units to fit their design view.
They're picking units to sell more toys. Get real.
So they're putting fewer units in to sell more stuff, you sure that adds up? If they gained all the new stuff, all the detachments, rules, daemon integration (albeit pants) and retained full chaos marines access, who wouldn't be playing one of the legions at this point?
Chaos Marines losing access to their Standard units can't be explained in any way, it's just stupid. I get DG losing bikes. But EC? I even get DG losing Vindicator (even though it was their most used tank...) because there's the crawler with a quite similar role. But EC losing a Helbrute? Cultists? Bikes? Raptors? You know, the guys praying to the god of being fast who had the only named Biker character in the past lose all ways of being fast but the Rhino...
Let's face it it's as if Blood Angels would lose Scouts and Devastators for no reason, while Space wolves lose bikes and Dreads and Black Templars lose Terminators. It just makes no sense at all.
If you want to lean into specializations you'd compare it to Space Wolves losing all aircraft because of old fluff. Black Templars losing all Land Raiders but the Crusader and Blood Angels losing any unit that lacks a jump Pack. Dark Angels lose anything that's not on bike or a terminator because extreme flanderization is apparently fun.
When Votann got introduced they were new, and only got a handful of units. E
I understand that EC are a "new" army and need to stand on their own. However, fluff states they have certain units. Units that HAVE models. Not having access to the Hellbrute (at the least) is just weird. I'd say the same about the Predator. I know they want to keep the army as different from the other factions as possible, and I support that, but I feel they should have had at least those two included at least until the next codex when EC have more goodies.
cuda1179 wrote: When Votann got introduced they were new, and only got a handful of units. E
I understand that EC are a "new" army and need to stand on their own. However, fluff states they have certain units. Units that HAVE models. Not having access to the Hellbrute (at the least) is just weird. I'd say the same about the Predator. I know they want to keep the army as different from the other factions as possible, and I support that, but I feel they should have had at least those two included at least until the next codex when EC have more goodies.
Helbrute is very easy to explain. It's a model that's getting replaced soon and GW doesn't want to encourage players starting this "new" army to invest in models that GW isn't planning to sell for long (or at all, as its exclusive to their site and not even available there).
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Chaos Marines losing access to their Standard units can't be explained in any way, it's just stupid. I get DG losing bikes. But EC? I even get DG losing Vindicator (even though it was their most used tank...) because there's the crawler with a quite similar role. But EC losing a Helbrute? Cultists? Bikes? Raptors? You know, the guys praying to the god of being fast who had the only named Biker character in the past lose all ways of being fast but the Rhino...
I might be the only one, but I was genuinely hoping for a new Doomrider with this book...
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Chaos Marines losing access to their Standard units can't be explained in any way, it's just stupid. I get DG losing bikes. But EC? I even get DG losing Vindicator (even though it was their most used tank...) because there's the crawler with a quite similar role. But EC losing a Helbrute? Cultists? Bikes? Raptors? You know, the guys praying to the god of being fast who had the only named Biker character in the past lose all ways of being fast but the Rhino...
I might be the only one, but I was genuinely hoping for a new Doomrider with this book...
As silly as Doomrider was, and quite frankly his model was HIDEOUS, I think he'd be an excellent candidate for a future revision. A suitably ornate and twisted, somewhat oversized bike, flaming hair/wheels, and possibly levitated up in the air. It would be silly, but great. Unfortunately it would also require EC bikes to go along with him, so it will likely never happen.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Chaos Marines losing access to their Standard units can't be explained in any way, it's just stupid. I get DG losing bikes. But EC? I even get DG losing Vindicator (even though it was their most used tank...) because there's the crawler with a quite similar role. But EC losing a Helbrute? Cultists? Bikes? Raptors? You know, the guys praying to the god of being fast who had the only named Biker character in the past lose all ways of being fast but the Rhino...
Let's face it it's as if Blood Angels would lose Scouts and Devastators for no reason, while Space wolves lose bikes and Dreads and Black Templars lose Terminators. It just makes no sense at all.
If you want to lean into specializations you'd compare it to Space Wolves losing all aircraft because of old fluff. Black Templars losing all Land Raiders but the Crusader and Blood Angels losing any unit that lacks a jump Pack. Dark Angels lose anything that's not on bike or a terminator because extreme flanderization is apparently fun.
Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.
That said:
- Raptors historically are a 3rd party warband and don't belong to the legion
- Helbrute might be due to the sensory deprivation of being shoved in a box
- Cultists I suspect tend to not live long enough to form units often, look at harp boy
- Bikes I'd wager is almost entirely due to being a 25 year year old kit
Outside of this the "fast" side struggles from the same issue world eaters have. They already have above average movement base, with army wide access to advance and charge. Their core infantry all have scout/infiltrate. How much faster do they need to be without turn 1 charges all day every day?
If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.
nathan2004 wrote: If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.
I think its important that the community gets back to the mindset that when you buy an Emperor's Children army, you are essentially buying 3 different armies. Emperor's Children, Purple Chaos Space Marines and Legions of Excess or whatever they call them. Not every model you buy is going to work in all 3, but you are absolutely capable of shifting your models to wherever they work.
Dudeface wrote: - Helbrute might be due to the sensory deprivation of being shoved in a box
Ben Counter solved that problem like ~20 years ago in Daemon World, though you might make a Darwinian argument for that being an explanation as to why there aren't any Hentaibrutes left now.....
I guess I'll replace Lucius with a Chaos Lord and possibly ally in Noise Marines. There are so many units that will no longer exist in my Emperor's Children army, there is no need to get this codex or updated models. It would be like starting a whole new army which is not something I want to do right now.
Overread wrote: I think its an attempt to make them actually different as opposed to "the same army with a different paint scheme and shoulderpads"
This is just the first step of change and its clear GW focused very much on the marine component of the swapover with models. We kind of saw the same with Slaanesh in AoS - first we got a LOT of demonic leaders and nothing on the troops then we got a LOT of mortal troop followers and updates there.
So chances are this is not a one-and-done but part of an ongoing change and experiment. GW will likely flesh out EC with more and more options as time passes.
IT is curious that they lost one or two options along the way; maybe they really want them to be the glass-canon close combat focused army or all-comers; or perhaps they've new models in mind that might come out in months/years down the road etc...
Them getting new models in the future is guaranteed, I agree. However, in the meantime, I don't think it's right that EC and WE have to live with gimped armies when much of the stuff from the CSM codex is completely fluffy for their themes. World Eaters having only two foot HQ's, with one being a named character, is just insulting and doesn't make any sense.
Dudeface wrote: Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.
Your talking about the faction that had all of its 'traditional' units replaced with over-specialised (and in some cases virtually redundant) Primaris equivalents.
Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.
For one brief, magical edition (my glorious 9th), EVERYONE had subfactions that actually mattered.
Then competitive players pissed and moaned about how much their brains hurt because they were convinced they had to know every rule for every army in order to WIN MOAR.
So we got the featherweight lack of options that is 10th. Reap the fething whirlwind.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?
Yes, from the article
The big draw of this new Detachment is being able to fill half of your army with daemons, despite them having different Faction keywords. Better still, the new Codex: Emperor’s Children contains full datasheets for all of the daemons you’ll need: Daemonettes, Fiends, Seekers, the Keeper of Secrets and Shalaxi Helbane.*
Followed by footnote:
* Expect to see the other Heretic Astartes Legions get the same treatment
nathan2004 wrote: If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.
I think its important that the community gets back to the mindset that when you buy an Emperor's Children army, you are essentially buying 3 different armies. Emperor's Children, Purple Chaos Space Marines and Legions of Excess or whatever they call them. Not every model you buy is going to work in all 3, but you are absolutely capable of shifting your models to wherever they work.
What about the people that don’t want 3 armies, they just wanna run 1. It’s one thing to not take stuff away but give options - it’s another to take this sort of approach. There are better games out there that don’t follow this approach - GW even makes one. But it’s definitely not 40K.
Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.
For one brief, magical edition (my glorious 9th), EVERYONE had subfactions that actually mattered.
Then competitive players pissed and moaned about how much their brains hurt because they were convinced they had to know every rule for every army in order to WIN MOAR.
So we got the featherweight lack of options that is 10th. Reap the fething whirlwind.
9th was actually peak marine problem. The base codex had as many options in for marines as every other 9th ed army. Then they had access to the "what extra set of Relics and strats shall I have today" supplements, which also added extra models for no downsides in many cases. That isn't good or healthy, it wasn't then and isn't now.
nathan2004 wrote: If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.
I think its important that the community gets back to the mindset that when you buy an Emperor's Children army, you are essentially buying 3 different armies. Emperor's Children, Purple Chaos Space Marines and Legions of Excess or whatever they call them. Not every model you buy is going to work in all 3, but you are absolutely capable of shifting your models to wherever they work.
What about the people that don’t want 3 armies, they just wanna run 1. It’s one thing to not take stuff away but give options - it’s another to take this sort of approach. There are better games out there that don’t follow this approach - GW even makes one. But it’s definitely not 40K.
They can run their existing collection as 1 thing, the same 1 thing they had in 9th, 8th, uth, 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd (my knowledge stops here). A chaos space marine army that's pink. I suspect daemons might be a problem next year though.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?
I would be very shocked if the other 3 cult armies didn't lose access to Predators and Vindicators at the very least. If they also all lose Hellbrutes that definitely implies a new model coming at some point in the distant future. They'll also all get their respective Daemons added in, which might well lead to the removal of the Daemons Codex. I would assume any model that is specifically for any of those three factions will not get removed (so TS, DG and WE will keep their cultist equivalents, but may not get generic cultists any more).
Lathe Biosas wrote: Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?
I would be very shocked if the other 3 cult armies didn't lose access to Predators and Vindicators at the very least. If they also all lose Hellbrutes that definitely implies a new model coming at some point in the distant future. They'll also all get their respective Daemons added in, which might well lead to the removal of the Daemons Codex. I would assume any model that is specifically for any of those three factions will not get removed (so TS, DG and WE will keep their cultist equivalents, but may not get generic cultists any more).
If they really want to keep people guessing they might remove maulerfiends from WE, but leave forgefiends in.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Do you think this trend will continue to the other Chaos Codicies that are due to be released shortly?
I would be very shocked if the other 3 cult armies didn't lose access to Predators and Vindicators at the very least. If they also all lose Hellbrutes that definitely implies a new model coming at some point in the distant future. They'll also all get their respective Daemons added in, which might well lead to the removal of the Daemons Codex. I would assume any model that is specifically for any of those three factions will not get removed (so TS, DG and WE will keep their cultist equivalents, but may not get generic cultists any more).
If they really want to keep people guessing they might remove maulerfiends from WE, but leave forgefiends in.
Wouldn't be massive surprised if Thousand Sons lost the Maulerfiends but kept the Forgefiend.
As for Emperor's Children and Daemons, the regular ally rules are part of the Daemons index - Daemonic Pact, which just requires your army to have the "Chaos" keyword.
Thousand Sons and Deathguard don't have any special mention within their indices about including daemons, but are called out as only being allowed to have the god aligned ones as part of the daemon rules.
So any EC detachment can have up to 25% Daemons (with a 1:1 battle line to non-battleline requirement) - Carnival of Chaos gives you twice as much and removes this restriction to let you more easily take the Greater Daemons and have them interact more with your army.
I fully expect to see a revised Daemons index within the next month or two.
1) Slaanesh daemon datasheets had some fairly significant balance tweaks that would be odd not to carry over, especially Shalaxi who has been problematic in the meta
2) The daemonic pact ally rules no longer function for EC as they're based on use with the CSM codex. With daemons in the legion codexes those ally rules may be removed entirely
3) The EC daemons now have a SUMMONED keyword and no clear interactions within the codex. It's plausible that all other daemons will get this, and also that it is intended for use with Grey Knights when their codex arrives
9th was actually peak marine problem. The base codex had as many options in for marines as every other 9th ed army. Then they had access to the "what extra set of Relics and strats shall I have today" supplements, which also added extra models for no downsides in many cases. That isn't good or healthy, it wasn't then and isn't now.
This is why I was never too concerned about WE not getting units like bikers or raptors. It's pretty obvious that GW have kept a bunch of ktis back in the pipeline so they can dripfeed out releases in future, and I fully expect to see things like Berzerkers on Juggernauts sooner or later. As much as it sucks to only have a few options, it would also suck to be encouraged to buy really old kits that then quickly become sidelined by something else in the same role the following edition.
Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.
For one brief, magical edition (my glorious 9th), EVERYONE had subfactions that actually mattered.
Then competitive players pissed and moaned about how much their brains hurt because they were convinced they had to know every rule for every army in order to WIN MOAR.
So we got the featherweight lack of options that is 10th. Reap the fething whirlwind.
9th was actually peak marine problem. The base codex had as many options in for marines as every other 9th ed army. Then they had access to the "what extra set of Relics and strats shall I have today" supplements, which also added extra models for no downsides in many cases. That isn't good or healthy, it wasn't then and isn't now.
nathan2004 wrote: If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.
I think its important that the community gets back to the mindset that when you buy an Emperor's Children army, you are essentially buying 3 different armies. Emperor's Children, Purple Chaos Space Marines and Legions of Excess or whatever they call them. Not every model you buy is going to work in all 3, but you are absolutely capable of shifting your models to wherever they work.
What about the people that don’t want 3 armies, they just wanna run 1. It’s one thing to not take stuff away but give options - it’s another to take this sort of approach. There are better games out there that don’t follow this approach - GW even makes one. But it’s definitely not 40K.
They can run their existing collection as 1 thing, the same 1 thing they had in 9th, 8th, uth, 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd (my knowledge stops here). A chaos space marine army that's pink. I suspect daemons might be a problem next year though.
You picked an interesting hill to die on. They’ve completely separated cult marines and taking certain HQ’s to make them troops was the way to go imo. Not the approach they’re taking now.
You picked an interesting hill to die on. They’ve completely separated cult marines and taking certain HQ’s to make them troops was the way to go imo. Not the approach they’re taking now.
You can still take Cult Marines in CSM, they just aren't Battleline.
So the only change from how that army would have worked is that you can't take the one special character the Legions would get.
You don't get the new toys which you can always sub in as proxies anyway.
So the only real issue that will be there is you can't play in GW sanctioned environments, which I'm assuming you weren't doing anyway.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Was the Hellbrute really that integral to everyone's lists? I didn't really see many when playing against CSM armies.
Probably not of the lists (not that I would know anyway) but more of the background. Dreadnoughts are immensely iconic for SMs and imho the lore of the chaos versions did a good job of perverting that concept fittingly
GW also has the tendency of doing a 180° on everything if it goes against something that they are doing right now. Mechanicus using other imperial tanks like Land Raiders? Never happened, they just use hovercrafts. So while legends exist there is a real chance that you not just can't use your EC dreads and daemon engines but that you never were supposed to have them in the first place.
Marines are treated like delicate princesses, nobody else gets their cake and eats it the same way, it's the reason for a decade of balancing issues in a lot of ways.
For one brief, magical edition (my glorious 9th), EVERYONE had subfactions that actually mattered.
Then competitive players pissed and moaned about how much their brains hurt because they were convinced they had to know every rule for every army in order to WIN MOAR.
So we got the featherweight lack of options that is 10th. Reap the fething whirlwind.
9th was actually peak marine problem. The base codex had as many options in for marines as every other 9th ed army. Then they had access to the "what extra set of Relics and strats shall I have today" supplements, which also added extra models for no downsides in many cases. That isn't good or healthy, it wasn't then and isn't now.
nathan2004 wrote: If GW is consistent about one thing it’s their lack of fear or concern about pissing off their player base. But given what happened with the other codexes, this was always going to happen. Still sucks for people that bought everything for a specific army only to have these tight restrictions put in place.
I think its important that the community gets back to the mindset that when you buy an Emperor's Children army, you are essentially buying 3 different armies. Emperor's Children, Purple Chaos Space Marines and Legions of Excess or whatever they call them. Not every model you buy is going to work in all 3, but you are absolutely capable of shifting your models to wherever they work.
What about the people that don’t want 3 armies, they just wanna run 1. It’s one thing to not take stuff away but give options - it’s another to take this sort of approach. There are better games out there that don’t follow this approach - GW even makes one. But it’s definitely not 40K.
They can run their existing collection as 1 thing, the same 1 thing they had in 9th, 8th, uth, 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd (my knowledge stops here). A chaos space marine army that's pink. I suspect daemons might be a problem next year though.
You picked an interesting hill to die on. They’ve completely separated cult marines and taking certain HQ’s to make them troops was the way to go imo. Not the approach they’re taking now.
This is a more interesting hill to die on, as there is no concept of troops, the CSM lists can take cult troops and they don't need a HQ to do it?
In an old edition way of thinking, the blades would just be possessed alternate sculpts and the infractors would just be alternate legionnaires. They'd also not have all the detachments, army rules and strats etc. To differentiate them.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Was the Hellbrute really that integral to everyone's lists? I didn't really see many when playing against CSM armies.
No, but that was mainly due to points cost. I converted a HH contemptor into a WE helbrute and was really pleased with the model, but struggled to justify it in lists at 140pts when it dies so quickly.
At the 100-120pt range it would probably be a staple unit.
LunarSol wrote: Again, its not saying EC will never have Helbrutes, just that they don't have access to the current Helbrute that's going to Legends soon.
LunarSol wrote: Again, its not saying EC will never have Helbrutes, just that they don't have access to the current Helbrute that's going to Legends soon.
How do we know that they're going to Legends?
We don't, but its an outdated model that's only sold in Star Collecting. Singles are Webstore exclusive and not even available on the webstore. That's all the signs of a model getting a resculpt and I'm sure GW would like it to be more in line with the Redemptor. Not being in EC to me screams that they just don't want to sell them to people starting this "new" army only to be replaced soon.
LunarSol wrote: Again, its not saying EC will never have Helbrutes, just that they don't have access to the current Helbrute that's going to Legends soon.
How do we know that they're going to Legends?
We don't, but its an outdated model that's only sold in Star Collecting. Singles are Webstore exclusive and not even available on the webstore. That's all the signs of a model getting a resculpt and I'm sure GW would like it to be more in line with the Redemptor. Not being in EC to me screams that they just don't want to sell them to people starting this "new" army only to be replaced soon.
It's not outdated, it looks perfectly fine alongside the rest of the CSM line. An update wouldn't be the worst thing, but I'm failing to see how it could be improved upon by the standards of modern GW sculpting.
LunarSol wrote: Again, its not saying EC will never have Helbrutes, just that they don't have access to the current Helbrute that's going to Legends soon.
How do we know that they're going to Legends?
We don't, but its an outdated model that's only sold in Star Collecting. Singles are Webstore exclusive and not even available on the webstore. That's all the signs of a model getting a resculpt and I'm sure GW would like it to be more in line with the Redemptor. Not being in EC to me screams that they just don't want to sell them to people starting this "new" army only to be replaced soon.
It's not outdated, it looks perfectly fine alongside the rest of the CSM line. An update wouldn't be the worst thing, but I'm failing to see how it could be improved upon by the standards of modern GW sculpting.
If nothing else they'd scale it up so it isn't like a third of the size of a Redemptor.
LunarSol wrote: Again, its not saying EC will never have Helbrutes, just that they don't have access to the current Helbrute that's going to Legends soon.
How do we know that they're going to Legends?
We don't, but its an outdated model that's only sold in Star Collecting. Singles are Webstore exclusive and not even available on the webstore. That's all the signs of a model getting a resculpt and I'm sure GW would like it to be more in line with the Redemptor. Not being in EC to me screams that they just don't want to sell them to people starting this "new" army only to be replaced soon.
It's not outdated, it looks perfectly fine alongside the rest of the CSM line. An update wouldn't be the worst thing, but I'm failing to see how it could be improved upon by the standards of modern GW sculpting.
If nothing else they'd scale it up so it isn't like a third of the size of a Redemptor.
But isn't that one supposed to be extra large in compared to traditional dreadnoughts?
LunarSol wrote: Again, its not saying EC will never have Helbrutes, just that they don't have access to the current Helbrute that's going to Legends soon.
How do we know that they're going to Legends?
We don't, but its an outdated model that's only sold in Star Collecting. Singles are Webstore exclusive and not even available on the webstore. That's all the signs of a model getting a resculpt and I'm sure GW would like it to be more in line with the Redemptor. Not being in EC to me screams that they just don't want to sell them to people starting this "new" army only to be replaced soon.
It's not outdated, it looks perfectly fine alongside the rest of the CSM line. An update wouldn't be the worst thing, but I'm failing to see how it could be improved upon by the standards of modern GW sculpting.
If nothing else they'd scale it up so it isn't like a third of the size of a Redemptor.
But isn't that one supposed to be extra large in compared to traditional dreadnoughts?
Lets spin this around, the helbrute is about the size of Abaddon or some other on foot characters, they be teeny now.
I said I'd think it kind of dull if EC got no units and while I guess you had to expect it after WE, this doesn't interest me much.
I mean the detachments scream 8th edition Harlequins Codex. I'm sure there's tricks I'm missing but you've basically got:
"The Daemons one."
"The Transports one."
"The movement tricks one."
"Do some more damage."
"Do some more damage but by a different mechanic."
"Wait, there's more. Another way of doing more damage with another mechanic."
Not exactly screaming varied build ideas. But maybe its more complicated if you get into the weeds.
LunarSol wrote: Again, its not saying EC will never have Helbrutes, just that they don't have access to the current Helbrute that's going to Legends soon.
How do we know that they're going to Legends?
We don't, but its an outdated model that's only sold in Star Collecting. Singles are Webstore exclusive and not even available on the webstore. That's all the signs of a model getting a resculpt and I'm sure GW would like it to be more in line with the Redemptor. Not being in EC to me screams that they just don't want to sell them to people starting this "new" army only to be replaced soon.
It's not outdated, it looks perfectly fine alongside the rest of the CSM line. An update wouldn't be the worst thing, but I'm failing to see how it could be improved upon by the standards of modern GW sculpting.
If nothing else they'd scale it up so it isn't like a third of the size of a Redemptor.
But isn't that one supposed to be extra large in compared to traditional dreadnoughts?
Lets spin this around, the helbrute is about the size of Abaddon or some other on foot characters, they be teeny now.
Tyel wrote: I said I'd think it kind of dull if EC got no units and while I guess you had to expect it after WE, this doesn't interest me much.
I mean the detachments scream 8th edition Harlequins Codex. I'm sure there's tricks I'm missing but you've basically got:
"The Daemons one."
"The Transports one."
"The movement tricks one."
"Do some more damage."
"Do some more damage but by a different mechanic."
"Wait, there's more. Another way of doing more damage with another mechanic."
Not exactly screaming varied build ideas. But maybe its more complicated if you get into the weeds.
They definitely seem more 'bottom-up' design, built around mechanics with the flavour added afterwards, rather than a 'top-down' finding mechanics that interpret an idea.
If nothing else they'd scale it up so it isn't like a third of the size of a Redemptor.
But isn't that one supposed to be extra large in compared to traditional dreadnoughts?
Lets spin this around, the helbrute is about the size of Abaddon or some other on foot characters, they be teeny now.
That's a good point, I haven't thought of that.
Lets also be clear, we are just about to the point where we're dropping the whole Primaris farce. They've just been redesigning, resculpting and resizing the marine line. The Primaris fluff gave them an excuse to run them alongside the stuff that hadn't been redone and spread out the release over time, but the goal is very much for Primaris to be the marine line and not special, bigger marines.
You can really see it in Space Marine 2, where once the tutorial and intro has done the whole Rubicon thing, there's not a whiff of Firstborn. Everything is Primaris, including the Dreadnought that acts like he just woke up for the first time since he died during the Heresy. Redemptors aren't extra large, that's just what a Dreadnought is now and notably, they're not significantly larger than the Helbrutes
I think the main problem with this release is the same problem with the WE release and what kind of plagues the TS. It feels like half an army. I mean even if EC had access to predators, hell brutes etc. would is still feel finished? WE doesn't nor does TS and they both can bring all the generic CSM vehicles.
GW just needs to get these armies like 3-4 more unique units, similar to the DG which have their unique daemon engines, lots of unique characters, two types of terminators etc. and Even DG could prbably use 1-2 more units.
So maybe in what like 12th there will be something that feels like a full DG,EC,WE,TS army, after they release you know like 50 more primarais units lol.
I think over the last 4 editions a good chunk of the Chaos sculpting budget has been spent establishing these god focused factions. Now that they're all out, I'd hope that can be directed towards giving each of them some real depth. I am a little surprised they didn't lean harder on the daemons to accomplish that though.
Then competitive players pissed and moaned about how much their brains hurt because they were convinced they had to know every rule for every army in order to WIN MOAR.
It wasnt competitive players complainibg, it was casuals lile me who played a couple times a month and couldnt commit 8 layets of rules to memory. The competitive community, knowing many of the upper tier of big name players as I do, are/were very much against this streamlining.
Dudeface wrote: `
9th was actually peak marine problem. The base codex had as many options in for marines as every other 9th ed army. Then they had access to the "what extra set of Relics and strats shall I have today" supplements, which also added extra models for no downsides in many cases. That isn't good or healthy, it wasn't then and isn't now.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
The problem is one of relativity: you can look at an edition where Marines have fewer sub faction options and say "That's good, because there's less Marine rules bloat."
But if other factions have NO SUBFACTION options, then even though the marines don't have much, it's still too much for them to have, because everyone else gets nothing.
Me getting a little, and them getting a lot felt better to me than them getting a little and me getting nothing.
As for whether or not subfaction content is good for the game in general, you can argue that it makes the game harder to balance, or whatever... But my priority is having the largest possible narrative sandbox, and the more rules content I have, the easier it is to create interesting stories on the table-top. Again, I don't play the game the way most people do- to me, 40k is a role-playing game that uses models. I realize this means that my opinions have limited appeal in a forum where most members really like more conventional wargames, with tight core rules to emphasize tactical decision making.
But despite my weird RPG preferences, 9th still managed to be everything I've wanted 40k to be since '89. Editions 1-5 were all great for their time, but 9th gave me more to work with than any of them did. Looking back now is kinda like visiting my old elementary school and seeing how small it is and how low all the drinking fountains are.
JNAProductions wrote: But the other armies DO have sub factions.
They’re just not locked to a paint scheme.
In 10th, what's the difference between a Sister from the Order of Our Martyred Lady and a Sister from the Bloody Rose?
There is no difference besides a name and a paint job... Sure, the subfactions have names, and there is lore associated with them, but when none of that affects the actual game, from my perspective subfactions might as well not exist at all.
YOU might not have liked it when OoOML were a cult of Martyrdom (and played that way) and BR were hot headed close combat specialists (and played that way), but I did.
And that doesn't mean that your preferences aren't valid; they are. Which is why, in 9th, if you said to me, "I know these sisters LOOK like OoOML, but I just liked those colours, and actually prefer to play them using Bloody Rose rules." I would have been fine with that, and in my experience, most I've the people I've played with over the past 36 years would have been fine with it too. Only dicks ever insisted that you paint your models in strict accordance with the colour scheme of the subfaction that best fit your preferred play style.
It would have been trivially simple for them to say that a named subfaction is just an example of that ruleset and anyone else can be it to, it's just the Blood Angels are the most famous example of X.
But they decided that it was all or nothing - either paint jobs were heinously restrictive, or they didn't matter at all.
Special characters also could have been positioned this way and been slightly less ridiculously unique in the process. Eldrad is an example of an ancient farseer, Farsight is an example of a rebellious tau commander etc.
But in the modern game we get this weird position where the paint scheme doesn't mean anything, but guilliman is unique and only an ultramarine while his army can be anything because key words don't actually require paint schemes.
Hellebore wrote: It would have been trivially simple for them to say that a named subfaction is just an example of that ruleset and anyone else can be it to, it's just the Blood Angels are the most famous example of X.
But they decided that it was all or nothing - either paint jobs were heinously restrictive, or they didn't matter at all.
Special characters also could have been positioned this way and been slightly less ridiculously unique in the process. Eldrad is an example of an ancient farseer, Farsight is an example of a rebellious tau commander etc.
Sooo exactly like 5th edition?
Funny how 15 years later, no GW writer managed to reach Ward level yet (worse, they managed to ruin the elegant usability and balance mechanics he left either out of spite or incomptence, which is amazing because AoS kept them and these regularly come up in 'why AoS is better than 40K' discussions showing it's not like 40K crew doesn't know how to do it, they simply won't), but hey, gotta appease bunch of 4chan kids screeching about spiritual liege instead of making game better (and what is really hilarious here, the fluff these clowns whine about was actually written by Phil Kelly, not Ward, making the whole affair even more sad)!
LunarSol wrote: Again, its not saying EC will never have Helbrutes, just that they don't have access to the current Helbrute that's going to Legends soon.
How do we know that they're going to Legends?
We don't, but its an outdated model that's only sold in Star Collecting. Singles are Webstore exclusive and not even available on the webstore. That's all the signs of a model getting a resculpt and I'm sure GW would like it to be more in line with the Redemptor. Not being in EC to me screams that they just don't want to sell them to people starting this "new" army only to be replaced soon.
It's not outdated, it looks perfectly fine alongside the rest of the CSM line. An update wouldn't be the worst thing, but I'm failing to see how it could be improved upon by the standards of modern GW sculpting.
This. If the Helbrute is outdated then so are the Dinobots, the Heldrake and the raptors, as they're all from 6th edition. And if these are outdated we better not start thinking about Rhinos and Land Raiders.
Also, chances are a new sculpt of the Helbrute would cut most of the options just to get a bigger clumsy model on the sprue. That would be okay for a sonic dreadnought for EC, but don't make all other CSM suffer for that. The "Standards of modern GW sculpting" are unfortunately lower in 40K than they were 10 years ago. The Helbrute is already quite modern in the sense that there's basically no way to do some positioning. But at least you get a proper range of arms and heads.
Lord Damocles wrote: wAiT aNd SeE if at an indeterminate future time there is a new Helbrute!
This bit you do really isn't entertaining, sorry. Nobody knows what's going on with the helbrute, so literally yeah, you'll have to wait and see. It's not some mythical woo-woo statement that needs typing like a 13 year old on CoD.
JNAProductions wrote: But the other armies DO have sub factions.
They’re just not locked to a paint scheme.
In 10th, what's the difference between a Sister from the Order of Our Martyred Lady and a Sister from the Bloody Rose?
There is no difference besides a name and a paint job... Sure, the subfactions have names, and there is lore associated with them, but when none of that affects the actual game, from my perspective subfactions might as well not exist at all.
YOU might not have liked it when OoOML were a cult of Martyrdom (and played that way) and BR were hot headed close combat specialists (and played that way), but I did.
There is still a difference, though. There's a detachment that's clearly based on OoOML and has a detachment rule that works off your own models dying, alongside various stratagems that do the same. Just because it's no longer literally called "Order of Our Martyred Lady" it doesn't mean it no longer exists. Other factions have identical approaches except now we don't get pigeon-holed because GW decided only Raven Guard would do sneaky scouting armies, or Hive Fleet Behemoth was the only one that had lots of monsters (not that most people ever cared about the paint scheme restrictions - and rightly so - but it was still a dumb move from GW to even attempt them). Also, how different should a basic line trooper be from one sub-faction tot he next? At the scale we're operating, a Sister of Battle from one sub-faction does not need to be hugely different to another sub-faction's Sister. Same with Necron Warriors, or Intercessors.
This is one area where I think creating the 4 god-specific legions as their own books works well for GW. There's a fine line between what needs to be its own thing versus what could just be a detachment in a more general book. DG are a good example of this done right, but I think the other 3 legions need a lot more fleshing out before they're at that level. I wonder if any new Hellbrute/Dread for Chaos will have alternate bits to make it more fitting for the god-sepcific legions? That would be one good approach. Theoretically everyone getting new vehicles like DG did would also be good, but the problem there is I can't really see any good reason for the legions to abandon their Predators and there's always the likelihood if GW goes down that route that one legion ends up getting screwed by having the worst unique vehicle options.
JNAProductions wrote: But the other armies DO have sub factions.
They’re just not locked to a paint scheme.
In 10th, what's the difference between a Sister from the Order of Our Martyred Lady and a Sister from the Bloody Rose?
There is no difference besides a name and a paint job... Sure, the subfactions have names, and there is lore associated with them, but when none of that affects the actual game, from my perspective subfactions might as well not exist at all.
YOU might not have liked it when OoOML were a cult of Martyrdom (and played that way) and BR were hot headed close combat specialists (and played that way), but I did.
There is still a difference, though. There's a detachment that's clearly based on OoOML and has a detachment rule that works off your own models dying, alongside various stratagems that do the same. Just because it's no longer literally called "Order of Our Martyred Lady" it doesn't mean it no longer exists. Other factions have identical approaches except now we don't get pigeon-holed because GW decided only Raven Guard would do sneaky scouting armies, or Hive Fleet Behemoth was the only one that had lots of monsters (not that most people ever cared about the paint scheme restrictions - and rightly so - but it was still a dumb move from GW to even attempt them). Also, how different should a basic line trooper be from one sub-faction tot he next? At the scale we're operating, a Sister of Battle from one sub-faction does not need to be hugely different to another sub-faction's Sister. Same with Necron Warriors, or Intercessors.
There are six major Sororitas Orders Militant, but the codex only has four detachments. Clearly, there is not one distinct equivalent detachment for each of the orders.
Hang on - Sisters only got four detachments? How many are they squeezing out of this tin y EC roster? My memory is telling me six which, while fitting, is kinda insulting to the Sisters.
Dysartes wrote: Hang on - Sisters only got four detachments? How many are they squeezing out of this tin y EC roster? My memory is telling me six which, while fitting, is kinda insulting to the Sisters.
Yeah it's 6.
I will say that from the leaks I've read (all of the rules & a few pages of the lore), speaking as an extreme EC fan who had sky-high hopes and expectations, the whole thing feels like a labour of love from the designers. The art, lore, everything looks genuinely fantastic. They clearly cared and put a lot of thought into the detachments as well. The only bizarrely disappointing bits are the unit omissions and weird half-inclusion of daemons. But everything else feels great to me, and I don't say that lightly.
Dysartes wrote: Hang on - Sisters only got four detachments? How many are they squeezing out of this tin y EC roster? My memory is telling me six which, while fitting, is kinda insulting to the Sisters.
Testify! Hallowed Martyrs, Penitent Host (more about flagellants and penitent engines), Bringers of Flame and Army of Faith. Mostly very generic in style, and leaving several Orders without a detachment that fits their previously established playstyles.
I'm also annoyed by the Genestealer Cult codex not having a cyborg'd up detachment to replace the Bladed Cog.
Dysartes wrote: Hang on - Sisters only got four detachments? How many are they squeezing out of this tin y EC roster? My memory is telling me six which, while fitting, is kinda insulting to the Sisters.
EC likely includes an extra detachment to make up for missing Grotmas, while Sisters now have five in total. The daemon 'ally' detachment is also pushing up the EC roster a bit.
My expectation is that DG/TS/WE will have closer to 5 detachments each including the daemons.
Dysartes wrote: Hang on - Sisters only got four detachments? How many are they squeezing out of this tin y EC roster? My memory is telling me six which, while fitting, is kinda insulting to the Sisters.
EC likely includes an extra detachment to make up for missing Grotmas, while Sisters now have five in total. The daemon 'ally' detachment is also pushing up the EC roster a bit.
My expectation is that DG/TS/WE will have closer to 5 detachments each including the daemons.
While I hope it's not the case, I can absolutely see GW giving World Eaters eight different variations on, "KILL! MAIM! BURN!" because they're the most boring faction in the game.
Dudeface wrote: Contents page is out in the wild, all leaks were correct.
Things are about to get weird for chaos armies from here.
Well, it looks like I'm going from about 2000 points down to 1100. There have been some pretty iconic units like bikers that have been removed, and that is sad, especially with nothing it seems to replace them. Which is the real kicker. With no new models to promote (im talking new new, not just re-sculpts, it doesn't make sense to limit the customers buying options for the older stuff. It looks like if you really want to field some armor, your going to have to split your army and pick some EC and some basic chaos. I'm sure in casual play no one will object, especially if you have it all painted.
It's a Kill Team release, but still a stealth way to get plasma missionaries, death cultists and freakin' CONFESSORS back into Ministorum forces! Praise the Emperor!
Managed to grab a Champions of Slaanesh box at a 21% discount, so I'm a happy heretic. Hopefully, I should be able to finish painting a unit of Terminators and 2 Deimos Predators ( ) before it arrives.
Now, time to plan the next purchase to top up the army. I'm pretty sure it'll involve a few metal boxes.
Shakalooloo wrote: It's a Kill Team release, but still a stealth way to get plasma missionaries, death cultists and freakin' CONFESSORS back into Ministorum forces! Praise the Emperor!
The SoB army had male monks and priests before, they got gutted out during the big plastic update, but they certainly had them. So they could easily fit into a SoB army
The Confessor is straight from the cover of the 2nd ed. Sisters codex.
Plasma missionary is just recently discontinued Missionary with Chainsword, but with the old Missionary with Plasma Gun's weapon.
Drill Abbot is Preacher Josef from the Inquisitor range.
Persecutor is very reminiscent of the Necromunda Redemptionist with Eviscerator.
And Miracle Girl is not a million miles from the saint from the studio's Caris Cephalon Inquisitor campaign.
Emperor's Children are huge! About the same eye level as Primaris, but with less bulky armour. Much bigger than Heresy Marines.
Thanks for the scale comparison. Excellent as always.
I guess that means we're at the point where GW drops the pretense about Primaris and allows other Marines to be the same size because a Marine is a Marine again.
I'm a bit disappointed in the Infractors/Tormentors kit. Why did they have to make them so much taller than regular CSM? Only 5 individual bodies? only 9 individual heads? It really feels like GW have invested as little as possible in this kit.
Why is scale creep still a thing in 2025?
Noise Marines look great, but again for some reason are huge.
Despite this, I'm still very much looking forward to receiving my copy. EC have been a long time coming!
I'll definitely need some different heads to add variety though!
StudentOfEtherium wrote: i assume the priests are for SoB. religious-themed units have always been their purview, regardless of gender
the Khorne unit is fantastic. wonder what role it's going to serve in the army. gorgeous models, really showing tactical rocks at their finest
They're described as 'militiamen', so the Frateris are back!!!
Don't know why there are two missionaries there, though; the current KT setting is a clearly Imperial world, so I don't know why they'd be there.
maybe the people on that world have the wrong kind of emperor worship. it's not like missionaries don't try to convert people of the same religion but different denominations in the real world
StudentOfEtherium wrote: i assume the priests are for SoB. religious-themed units have always been their purview, regardless of gender
the Khorne unit is fantastic. wonder what role it's going to serve in the army. gorgeous models, really showing tactical rocks at their finest
They're described as 'militiamen', so the Frateris are back!!!
Don't know why there are two missionaries there, though; the current KT setting is a clearly Imperial world, so I don't know why they'd be there.
maybe the people on that world have the wrong kind of emperor worship. it's not like missionaries don't try to convert people of the same religion but different denominations in the real world
That's what the Confessors are for, loud and bombastically getting people to Do Things Properly. The missionaries are the ones that spend decades in deep-cover amongst newly-rediscovered cultures, nudging their native religions to being focussed around the Emperor.
Does remind me of that old Gav Thorpe short story though, where a preacher who's part of a sect out of favour gets punished by being sent to tend to a run-down parish in the mutant part of town.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: i assume the priests are for SoB. religious-themed units have always been their purview, regardless of gender
the Khorne unit is fantastic. wonder what role it's going to serve in the army. gorgeous models, really showing tactical rocks at their finest
They're described as 'militiamen', so the Frateris are back!!!
Don't know why there are two missionaries there, though; the current KT setting is a clearly Imperial world, so I don't know why they'd be there.
maybe the people on that world have the wrong kind of emperor worship. it's not like missionaries don't try to convert people of the same religion but different denominations in the real world
That's what the Confessors are for, loud and bombastically getting people to Do Things Properly. The missionaries are the ones that spend decades in deep-cover amongst newly-rediscovered cultures, nudging their native religions to being focussed around the Emperor.
Does remind me of that old Gav Thorpe short story though, where a preacher who's part of a sect out of favour gets punished by being sent to tend to a run-down parish in the mutant part of town.
I don't want to say you're overthinking it, but between Arbites showing up on a space hulk and recent blatant 40k updates released as Kill Teams I suspect the priesthood is just a convenient way to update the part of the Sisters codex that didn't get any model love during their codex releases.
If the missionaries' presence is explained at all, it'll be some excuse like their departure was interrupted by enemy activity and they volunteered or got volunteered to take care of that problem before they can go back to their actual mission.
Emperor's Children are huge! About the same eye level as Primaris, but with less bulky armour. Much bigger than Heresy Marines.
Thank you, excellent review as always. And I knew they were bigger, but that side-by-side is very helpful. I really like the size, it is nice to have CSM that are properly tall. It is just unfortunate and bizarre, that the did not make the other relatively new CSM and HH marines in this size as well.
Emperor's Children are huge! About the same eye level as Primaris, but with less bulky armour. Much bigger than Heresy Marines.
Thank you, excellent review as always. And I knew they were bigger, but that side-by-side is very helpful. I really like the size, it is nice to have CSM that are properly tall. It is just unfortunate and bizarre, that the did not make the other relatively new CSM and HH marines in this size as well.
Newer Chaos Marines and HH Marines are already upscaled. How big do you want Marines to get?
Emperor's Children are huge! About the same eye level as Primaris, but with less bulky armour. Much bigger than Heresy Marines.
Thank you, excellent review as always. And I knew they were bigger, but that side-by-side is very helpful. I really like the size, it is nice to have CSM that are properly tall. It is just unfortunate and bizarre, that the did not make the other relatively new CSM and HH marines in this size as well.
Newer Chaos Marines and HH Marines are already upscaled. How big do you want Marines to get?
Primaris-sized. Look at the picture in Stahly's review. The new EC are as tall as the Primaris.
Emperor's Children are huge! About the same eye level as Primaris, but with less bulky armour. Much bigger than Heresy Marines.
Thank you, excellent review as always. And I knew they were bigger, but that side-by-side is very helpful. I really like the size, it is nice to have CSM that are properly tall. It is just unfortunate and bizarre, that the did not make the other relatively new CSM and HH marines in this size as well.
Newer Chaos Marines and HH Marines are already upscaled. How big do you want Marines to get?
Primaris-sized. Look at the picture in Stahly's review. The new EC are as tall as the Primaris.
Tbh it makes sense for the slaaneshii followers to be a bit longer and lithe but thinner. I don't expect any none primaris to be as tall as a primaris, so this is borderline weird.
How do they compare to death guard and world eaters sculpts (purposefully excluding TSons as they are older smaller sculpts except the infernal master who is a giant)
Lord Damocles wrote: But Primaris are supposed to be a head taller than firstborn, so then they'd be too small again.
Primaris models are scaled to be about seven feet tall compared to GW's normal humans. So that's the proper marine size. Yes, if we assume primaris to be even taller, then the models are too small, but we can just forget about whole primarias thing and marines are just marines.
No 40k stuff on the list to go on pre-order next week, but the WD mini-preview in there does mention a Harlequin Combat Patrol will be in the next issue.
chaos0xomega wrote: How do they compare to death guard and world eaters sculpts (purposefully excluding TSons as they are older smaller sculpts except the infernal master who is a giant)
I believe that the rubric troops are the first, or one of the first, of the newer scale models. Who knows if they'll get even further embiggened in the future though.
chaos0xomega wrote: How do they compare to death guard and world eaters sculpts (purposefully excluding TSons as they are older smaller sculpts except the infernal master who is a giant)
I believe that the rubric troops are the first, or one of the first, of the newer scale models. Who knows if they'll get even further embiggened in the future though.
I think Deathwatch in 7th were the first and TS followed... but could be the other way around
Got a fire dragon today. In case anyone is wondering theyre back to single sprue, monopose minis. Not taking your pick from the whole kit like the striking scorpions
Not a fan of them increasing the cost of units just because they work well in one detachment as it means they become no longer worth their points in other detachments.
Not a fan of them increasing the cost of units just because they work well in one detachment as it means they become no longer worth their points in other detachments.
That is the effect of all detachments unfortunately. They're just being more honest in that example
Each detachment is designed to work well with half a dozen or so themed units and so that those units don't break the game they're given points appropriate to that detachment. A balanced codex is one in which as many of those detachment (and corresponding units) are equally good, providing both internal and external balance.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: They're all in production and in plastic. Will probably stay as AoS specific units.
Just saying, the reason given for those units moving to legends is that they are now out of production. But yeah, I thought that was odd.
Were they particularly nightmarish kits to assemble (looking at you, original plastic landspeeder)? Wouldn't surprise me to find that a spindly plastic kit designed when it was to combo-up with multiple versions of itself wasn't the easiest thing to assemble.
Wonder if a more hedonites-themed replacement model is due to replace them.
So Karanak and the Seeker Chariots(which are still sold online only in the UK) are in legends while Epidemius and Blue Scribes(both of which don't even show up in the search results) are staying. Why?
There were rumour engines a while back that leant into Epidemius getting a new model. Presumably the blue scribes will as well, so new shinies get to stay.
Jesus, daemons somehow lost quite a bit to legends and still got way stronger. The buffs to belakor and his new detachment combo super good with all the changes too.
Bloodletters that get scout 9" with an enhancement and advance+charge to go with their new 8" movement, and then a strat for lance that also gives +1AP? If you can get the charge off turn 1 that's amazing. And that's just one unit, nurgle as a whole with the GUO's +1T aura is disgusting.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: There were rumour engines a while back that leant into Epidemius getting a new model. Presumably the blue scribes will as well, so new shinies get to stay.
I remembered that too (the nurgle pages), but they ended up being part of the Warcry Grandfather's Gardeners group.
I do love the new daemon rules, especially when it comes to souping in CSM. But why was Karanak moved to Legends? That's a pretty new model. Both it and the Slaanesh chariots are temporarily out of stock, but so are a bunch of other daemon units and they fortunately stayed. Epidemius, who doesn't even have a model listed in the store, has rules. It's all so strange, and is yet another example of GW seemingly playing games with people's collections.
I could see GW redoing the seekers for AoS one day but would be shocked if they pulled them entirely from AoS as well without replacement.
Karnack is a bit more of a surprise as its not that old a model in the first place, but perhaps he's also going fantasy only. There's also a chance he might go "Old World Only" as some kind of demon addon to Slaves to Darkness.
Perhaps but if they are no longer in production they'd lose them faster than that. However it might be that their 40K boxes are being pulled not their AoS ones.
There's also the chance that GW are shunting them into Old World as some demon ally upgrade to Slaves to Darkness like they pulled Beastmen from AoS into Old World.
I do not give a damn about rules or balances or the meta of the week,
but I am pretty tired to see them dump models I bought.
I will keep to the index and ignore all the rest.
To build the army. The rules themselves I could not care less.
I'm just happy my own armies didn't really catch much of a nerf. I hadn't really committed to a build with my Guard, so Bridgehead getting sent to the bone zone doesn't affect me as much as it would someone who had just bought a ton of Scions or something (supposedly someone going to Adepticon did just that and was understandably VERY salty since this change does make it under their rules cutoff). Dark Angels caught some indirect nerfs in that some of our shooting support went up a little (Ballistus Dreads, Vindicators, Preds), and anyone running Librarius will feel the increase to Fusillade. Nids came out basically neutral (big shooty bugs went up, Tyrants and Neurolictors came down). Votann literally didn't change if you run Oathband. And for me, Knights didn't change either since I don't currently own a Dominus (nor am I likely to get one anytime real soon).
Tastyfish wrote:Do the daemon units have different 40K and AoS boxes? They're all in the dual system white boxes aren't they?
Right now, many of them are being sold in AoS boxes, but with the 40k logo on the box as well.
In other news, the Chaos Lord model isn't to be found in the Death Guard section of the site anymore, though I don't know if the new model ever was. I really hope DG don't lose access to it.
parakuribo wrote: So Karanak and the Seeker Chariots(which are still sold online only in the UK) are in legends while Epidemius and Blue Scribes(both of which don't even show up in the search results) are staying. Why?
Because...
Spoiler:
GW
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mortar_crew wrote: I do not give a damn about rules or balances or the meta of the week,
but I am pretty tired to see them dump models I bought.
I will keep to the index and ignore all the rest.
To build the army. The rules themselves I could not care less.
Lord Damocles wrote: So who's willing to jump on the grenade of investing into Daemons now that they're more powerful?
Well, wether or not Demons got more powerful is irrelevant to me. It's just a nice bonus.
After that?
1) I'm not Legends adverse. All Legends does is cause me to switch PDFs on occasion. 2)
*I've already long had everything Khorne one could ever field in 40k maxed out.... (I actually own more Juggernauts than I can use in Demons + WE combined)
*I've got about 1k pts of Tzeentch. Mostly for AoS, but they've been seen on some 40k tables. This will continue.
*I just finalized an order the other day that will give me a 2k pts worth of Nurgle Demons. It should arrive & be assembled + base-coated for next weeks game.
3)The new Shadow detachment has given me a few more ideas! Especially for my immanent Nurgle force - all I need to do is drop 1 group of Nurglings & replace it with 1 converted model and I'll have my next Crusade army.
Daemon players have had pretty rotten army lists since forever. Anyone still playing daemons are used to the abuse of "new rules" and the constant feeling that there is a big chunk of normal army functions missing.
Deamon players are used to seeing new functions that barely resemble the former rules, or getting a powerful single unit that is supposed to save the codex and make it playable.
That is why this change work. If you play deamons, its not because of the rules.
Get with the programme. He's been out behind the woodshed for ages now.
He fills a role by being a generalist leader for Plague Marines, as all the other leaders are specialists. Also, his Dessication Conduit rule is quite good when coupled with the Nurgle's Gift rule.
Get with the programme. He's been out behind the woodshed for ages now.
He fills a role by being a generalist leader for Plague Marines, as all the other leaders are specialists. Also, his Dessication Conduit rule is quite good when coupled with the Nurgle's Gift rule.
Now there's a new one with a set weapon loadout. Get churned.
Get with the programme. He's been out behind the woodshed for ages now.
He fills a role by being a generalist leader for Plague Marines, as all the other leaders are specialists. Also, his Dessication Conduit rule is quite good when coupled with the Nurgle's Gift rule.
Now there's a new one with a set weapon loadout. Get churned.
Are you referring to the new Chaos Lord model for CSM or something else?
Get with the programme. He's been out behind the woodshed for ages now.
He fills a role by being a generalist leader for Plague Marines, as all the other leaders are specialists. Also, his Dessication Conduit rule is quite good when coupled with the Nurgle's Gift rule.
Now there's a new one with a set weapon loadout. Get churned.
Are you referring to the new Chaos Lord model for CSM or something else?
Get with the programme. He's been out behind the woodshed for ages now.
He fills a role by being a generalist leader for Plague Marines, as all the other leaders are specialists. Also, his Dessication Conduit rule is quite good when coupled with the Nurgle's Gift rule.
Now there's a new one with a set weapon loadout. Get churned.
It's more "enjoy the standalone codex treatment" rather than churn imo.
Get with the programme. He's been out behind the woodshed for ages now.
He fills a role by being a generalist leader for Plague Marines, as all the other leaders are specialists. Also, his Dessication Conduit rule is quite good when coupled with the Nurgle's Gift rule.
Now there's a new one with a set weapon loadout. Get churned.
Are you referring to the new Chaos Lord model for CSM or something else?
Get with the programme. He's been out behind the woodshed for ages now.
He fills a role by being a generalist leader for Plague Marines, as all the other leaders are specialists. Also, his Dessication Conduit rule is quite good when coupled with the Nurgle's Gift rule.
Now there's a new one with a set weapon loadout. Get churned.
Are you referring to the new Chaos Lord model for CSM or something else?
Dudeface wrote: I'll say the quiet part out loud for clarity: there is no generic death guard chaos lord in power armour possibly.
Why make a generic Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armor when you can turn out another Lord of [yet another synonym for disease]?
The 8th edition DG codex already described the 6 mantles of corruption that DG Lords can lean into. Counting the Lord of Poxes we now have three of that list and there's a "rumored 7th". If we're lucky the 7th is the Mantle of Options and Kitbash.
Dudeface wrote: I'll say the quiet part out loud for clarity: there is no generic death guard chaos lord in power armour possibly.
Why make a generic Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armor when you can turn out another Lord of [yet another synonym for disease]?
Generic commanders with options are Horus Heresy. 40k should be an echo of old structures that have become ritual and ceremony for reasons no one remember. Makes sense guys are stuck in their ways. Also makes some sense for GW to keep the game styles apart so people can fool around with different game styles and designs if they want some variation.
Dudeface wrote: I'll say the quiet part out loud for clarity: there is no generic death guard chaos lord in power armour possibly.
Why make a generic Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armor when you can turn out another Lord of [yet another synonym for disease]?
Generic commanders with options are Horus Heresy. 40k should be an echo of old structures that have become ritual and ceremony for reasons no one remember. Makes sense guys are stuck in their ways. Also makes some sense for GW to keep the game styles apart so people can fool around with different game styles and designs if they want some variation.
That almost makes sense for Loyalist Marines, but why would full-on Chaos Marines be stuck in their ways?
Dudeface wrote: I'll say the quiet part out loud for clarity: there is no generic death guard chaos lord in power armour possibly.
Why make a generic Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armor when you can turn out another Lord of [yet another synonym for disease]?
Generic commanders with options are Horus Heresy. 40k should be an echo of old structures that have become ritual and ceremony for reasons no one remember. Makes sense guys are stuck in their ways. Also makes some sense for GW to keep the game styles apart so people can fool around with different game styles and designs if they want some variation.
That almost makes sense for Loyalist Marines, but why would full-on Chaos Marines be stuck in their ways?
Because they are instruments of chaos, not truly chaotic in them self? Chaos Marines are stuck in a really bad contract and cant get out. Bound by their bitterness and grinding their gears for milennia without moving forward or backwards.
The nature of chaos in warhammer is more like a long list of numbers, colours, symbols and acts you need to repeat and display.
Valrak claims that the new Death Guard Combat Patrol is -
Lord of Virulence
Scribbus Wretch, the Tallyman
Death Guard squad
Deathshroud Terminator squad
Chaos Rhino
That seems a bit too good to be true to me? £158 of stuff in a Combat Patrol is a higher discount than any we've got recently right? And we've not had a vehicle in any of them for a while.
(Edit: Just to note I *think* he says Lord of Virulence and the Tallyman, it's a bit hard to parse.)
Maybe they had lower than expected sales for the previous Combat Patrol? After all, most DG players prolly had all of the Poxwalkers that they needed by the time that it dropped.
The Phazer wrote: Valrak claims that the new Death Guard Combat Patrol is -
Lord of Virulence
Scribbus Wretch, the Tallyman
Death Guard squad
Deathshroud Terminator squad
Chaos Rhino
That seems a bit too good to be true to me? £158 of stuff in a Combat Patrol is a higher discount than any we've got recently right? And we've not had a vehicle in any of them for a while.
(Edit: Just to note I *think* he says Lord of Virulence and the Tallyman, it's a bit hard to parse.)
The discount is high due to the way GW prices their characters at a premium, despite costing pennies to produce. The points cost is about right, so it's believable to me.
I just find the Rhino suspect on the basis of it being one of the oldest possible models to include. Pretty sure the only thing available to Death Guard that's older is the Defiler.
BorderCountess wrote: I just find the Rhino suspect on the basis of it being one of the oldest possible models to include. Pretty sure the only thing available to Death Guard that's older is the Defiler.
Rhino pips it to the post in age, if memory serves?
Though if dim memory serves, those came out when I was working for GW (I distinctly recall abusing my staff discount for both), but the Landraider preceded.
Personally, I wish GW would let Imp Knights take double weapons (2 meltas or 2 battle cannons, etc...) like Chaos Knights...or failing that, remove that as an option for Chaos Knights.
Lord Clinto wrote: Personally, I wish GW would let Imp Knights take double weapons (2 meltas or 2 battle cannons, etc...) like Chaos Knights...or failing that, remove that as an option for Chaos Knights.
Knowing GW recent penchant for kit compartmentalization i wouldn't be surprised if that was eventually the endgame.
LunarSol wrote: I've been strongly considering having my Knights take a fall to Chaos. Sounds like GW is happy to oblige me.
Not you too!
A few reasons:
- I really don't care for Armigers, but I find their aesthetic works a lot better for Wardogs. If little knight spam is the way the faction works, I'd rather spam Wardogs.
- I've hit a place with my Deathwatch where I'm pretty happy with them as my Imperium focus and my Orks are a great Xenos shift in style. I don't really care for the Chaos aesthetic, but it works pretty well on Knights and would by a third unique playstyle as well.
- I don't have Canis Rex, so I probably need to buy a big knight regardless. Canis is mostly redundant to my collection, but an Abominant would give me a bunch of options to make my other Questoris work in the faction.... should GW bother to make big knights viable.
Quixote wrote: I'm not sure that cookies could convert me to Chaos... but what happened to the Imperial Knights Codex?
Nobody knows. It's very possible production or shipping delays pushed it back. There's people curious if they're going to just make a Knights codex for both instead of two separate ones. The Battleforce had a very different statline so its possible they want to release the two together regardless to keep the stats in sync. It sure dropped off the radar though.
My only disappointment in all of this is that the space wolf box doesnt appear to come with primaris upgrades, it would be the only launch box of the "big 4" released so far (BT arent out yet) this edition to use transfers instead of plastic shoulder pads
chaos0xomega wrote: My only disappointment in all of this is that the space wolf box doesnt appear to come with primaris upgrades, it would be the only launch box of the "big 4" released so far (BT arent out yet) this edition to use transfers instead of plastic shoulder pads
Might be that for once GW doesn't want to railroad Space Wolves players into playing Ragnar's company, which has the benefit of cheaping out on upgrade sprues. Everybody wins, except fans of the Blackmane, I guess.
Flinty wrote: What are the thousand sons robot thingies? They look neat.
They indeed look neat, altough - slightly small? I thought we're gonna get like a proper dreadnought size thing. Instead, they look pretty small even in comparison to a wraithlord. At least judging by the image of TS battleforce GW announced for 1k sons.
Flinty wrote: What are the thousand sons robot thingies? They look neat.
They indeed look neat, altough - slightly small? I thought we're gonna get like a proper dreadnought size thing. Instead, they look pretty small even in comparison to a wraithlord. At least judging by the image of TS battleforce GW announced for 1k sons.
Thousand Sons already have a dreadnought size thing. For now...
Space Wolves are looking good, and if my brother was as interested in them today as he was back in the mid-90s, I'd treat him to that boxset.
The Chaos factions are light releases but with the splitting of Chaos Daemons this is probably a good thing; Daemon players are likely daunted by the cost of deciding which Chaos-faction codex to go for, while those already on that side of the fence are probably now eyeing up the purchase of the relevent Daemon kits.
The Dreadknight is a painfully missed opportunity to fix the most comically ridiculed kit in the entire Games Workshop model range. I dunno, maybe its so bad it's good?
Already tempted by Thousand Sons and the Sekhetars are calling to me! A mash up of an Armiger, Bone-reaper and Rubic Marine.
Looking forward to the Chaos and Imperial Knights in the next preview, with Templars as well.
The Dreadknight is a painfully missed opportunity to fix the most comically ridiculed kit in the entire Games Workshop model range. I dunno, maybe its so bad it's good?
A couple new weapons and rocket launchers on the chest straps holding the 'baby' in place is certainly a choice.
Shame everything except that one special character is wildly out of scale with the entire range at this point.
The Dreadknight is a painfully missed opportunity to fix the most comically ridiculed kit in the entire Games Workshop model range. I dunno, maybe its so bad it's good?
A couple new weapons and rocket launchers on the chest straps holding the 'baby' in place is certainly a choice.
Shame everything except that one special character is wildly out of scale with the entire range at this point.
Are those rockets or a set of frag assault launchers?
The Dreadknight is a painfully missed opportunity to fix the most comically ridiculed kit in the entire Games Workshop model range. I dunno, maybe its so bad it's good?
A couple new weapons and rocket launchers on the chest straps holding the 'baby' in place is certainly a choice.
Shame everything except that one special character is wildly out of scale with the entire range at this point.
Are those rockets or a set of frag assault launchers?
Not sure it matters too much, they're an instagib for the pilot if anything hits them either way.
The Dreadknight is a painfully missed opportunity to fix the most comically ridiculed kit in the entire Games Workshop model range. I dunno, maybe its so bad it's good?
A couple new weapons and rocket launchers on the chest straps holding the 'baby' in place is certainly a choice.
Shame everything except that one special character is wildly out of scale with the entire range at this point.
Are those rockets or a set of frag assault launchers?
Not sure it matters too much, they're an instagib for the pilot if anything hits them either way.
Excellent reveals. Wolves look good and I'm glad it is full new kits and not just upgrade sprues. I will be getting these for kitbashing for sure. Servitors look interesting as well, and of course Cathay is big and impressive surprise. Apart the babycarrier everything was great!
Wolves look kinda boring imo. Seems like the new Wolves upgrade sprue only has unhelmeted heads on it and nothing else. People better have a load of fur bits from the old upgrade sprues to wolven up their Wolves and cover up Primaris blandness.
Seems like these Thousand Sons automata were meant to come out with something else. Something feels missing, four is such an odd number. I'll be intrigued to see what their rules are like and if they'll sell them in boxes of 2s like the Necromunda Automata.
Gael Knight wrote: Seems like these Thousand Sons automata were meant to come out with something else. Something feels missing, four is such an odd number. I'll be intrigued to see what their rules are like and if they'll sell them in boxes of 2s like the Necromunda Automata.
I feel like they should be about a head taller at the very least.
Gael Knight wrote: Seems like these Thousand Sons automata were meant to come out with something else. Something feels missing, four is such an odd number. I'll be intrigued to see what their rules are like and if they'll sell them in boxes of 2s like the Necromunda Automata.
I feel like they should be about a head taller at the very least.
Yes at least the size of the SoB suits or the Penitent Engines. They do feel like GW has been sitting on these for a while because they're squeezed on to 40mm. Not that I'm asking for tactical rocks (we got one anyway).
They're growing on me through, maybe because they feel a bit retro.
lord_blackfang wrote: Looking again, a better paintjob will do wonders. Who decided on bone trim on bone plates on black skeleton? FFS
These would have been nicer tho
Snip'd pic above!
A more twisted by milennia of chaos version of these was kind of what I was expecting when I heard rumors of Tsons getting automata, like Death guard got with their flying thingy.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Wolves look kinda boring imo. Seems like the new Wolves upgrade sprue only has unhelmeted heads on it and nothing else. People better have a load of fur bits from the old upgrade sprues to wolven up their Wolves and cover up Primaris blandness.
It looks like 2 full kits, no upgrade sprues. Grey Knights are the ones relegated to an upgrade sprue only release.
The Dreadknight is a painfully missed opportunity to fix the most comically ridiculed kit in the entire Games Workshop model range. I dunno, maybe its so bad it's good?
A couple new weapons and rocket launchers on the chest straps holding the 'baby' in place is certainly a choice.
Shame everything except that one special character is wildly out of scale with the entire range at this point.
Are those rockets or a set of frag assault launchers?
Not sure it matters too much, they're an instagib for the pilot if anything hits them either way.
The pilot wearing terminator plate?
Depends what's in the missiles, but I'm sure that 6 frag missiles going off (at best) on his chest has good odds of causing harm.
A lot of meh reactions from me, but I don't play any of the factions previewed.
The TS mechs really bother me though, it seems like they just gave up halfway through designing them. I think it's the lack of leg articulation so they're just standing bolt upright on the battlefield. Most of the other mechs in the game at least have some sort of braced pose or option to have one leg striding forward.
With the digitigrade legs there could have been a lot better poseability.
I really like the space wolves. The grey hunters have lots of awkward poses like most primaris that try to utilise both their arms. I would rather keep using the steady interceccors.
The new thousand sons automata looks way better than I imagined. I never did like the HH mech robots in k-sons, so these will most likely boost my thousand sons army.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Wolves look kinda boring imo. Seems like the new Wolves upgrade sprue only has unhelmeted heads on it and nothing else. People better have a load of fur bits from the old upgrade sprues to wolven up their Wolves and cover up Primaris blandness.
It looks like 2 full kits, no upgrade sprues. Grey Knights are the ones relegated to an upgrade sprue only release.
Oh, really? Makes them much worse in my eyes as they look just like the generic Primaris but with the occasional SW/ older MK head.
I don't have an issue with the current baby carrier, so the addition of an upgrade sprue is neither here nor there to me. It's always had a Terminator pilot too.
What I'm not happy about is the lack of GK Terminators. 10th Edition is the Terminator edition. GK are the Terminator army. Where the are the new Terminators?
So, for the factions featured in the preview, I'd say World Eaters (definitely) and Grey Knights (arguably) players have grounds to grumble about what was shown - even more so if either lose access to their generic units as well (a point which will also apply to DG and 1KSons).
World Eaters needed a proper second wave, not a single character release - though the character filling a unit-leading gap helps.
I suspect GK won't see redone Terminators until they're ready to rescale their whole line.
I've had a Dreadknight for 10 years that had had only one ranged weapon. I'm thinking of using the giant pistol from the Invictor warsuit (holstered version) replacing the barrel with a giant melta barrel, and replacing the magazine with fuel tanks of some sort. Should make it look okay.
can't imagine anyone using the sisters team. good bundle of characters, i'm sure i'll see some kitbashes of it, but it reminds me a lot of AOS underworlds units
nonsense.
I love the fact no 
) before it arrives.
