I'd be surprised if Red Slayers was anything other than Trollslayers. Red Hair, like slaying things, mentioned in the same breath as the other dwarves...
Da Boss wrote: Actually, speaking of Nigmos, these new names do sort of stack up with what that Sina person was saying.
You mean this crap?
Spoiler:
PENDING Warhammer Fantasy Rumors - June 2015
I had the chance to look thoroughly through the proper Age of Sigmar rulebook (the one that consists of three books) yesterday evening. Spent my time with the three books and ignored the novel in favour of the real interesting things. So I cannot fill in the blanks there. But maybe I have the opportunity to look at the rulebook and novel again and hopefully the age of sigmar box, too. But now I have a way clearer picture what’s coming and I’d like to share with you because I am very (!!!) excited, but I cannot provide any photos for obvious reasons. So if you don’t believe me, I don’t blame you. But please don’t attack me personally.
- Title of the rulebook is: Age of Sigmar: a Warhammer strategy game TRUE - first the basics (most of which are already known):
- full fledged rule system; no skirmish game - meaning not restricted to low miniature count: 50 models on average, way lower possible, in general you use units but you can field an army consisting of only single models TRUE - everything is on round or oval bases (there paragraph that explicitly allows legacy and diorama bases, though); TRUE - 2 books: the rules (rules and scenarios) and compendium (pictures, unit cards and fluff) TRUE - there are unit cards for every (as far as I can see) old unit in the second book, including warhammer forge models and most or all special characters. Some units get the full treatment with a small fluff text, pictures of the actual miniatures and rules, some units get only rules with nothing more.
- all new rules with complete new mechanics: think not of 40k 2nd -> 3rd but Warhammer 8th -> Bloodbowl, very compact and fast paced, huge emphasis on individual champions, magic and gods (don’t know how powerful, but these have the most rule pages)
- no photos (and no artworks except some very generic drawings) of new miniatures except a couple chaos and human miniatures that are very likely from the Age of Sigmar box.
- all the races are in, but some are clearly favored. There are few pictures of beastmen and lizardmen for example and some units like steamtanks, gunpowder units (Skaven and new-dwarfs use them still), etc. can only be fielded as mercenaries from a different world or summoned units (in case of most special characters, there is even a picture of a Teclis painted in ghost colors)
- the tech level is between and ancient roman empire and early medieval times, lots of nomadic barbarian tribes, etc. But judging by to the age of sigmar miniatures the armour design draws only a little bit from history and is has a very stylized high-fantasy design instead TRUE - there are lots of different people, races, gods and lots of different alliances. The world is a lot more open minded than the old one, Empire-Orc Alliance would be unthinkable, but a human-waaghkin force is nothing unusual in this setting
Army building
- you pick one or more gods that determine the theurgic or magic schools (don’t know what the difference is, sorry) you can use and how your champions get power-ups during the game. You can take several gods, but they have to be from the same pantheon - so no nurgle-sigmar armies, but Nagash-Morr is possible.Then you choose whichever unit you want - from every race. There is no limit as far as I can tell. FALSE - The only mechanic that I have spotted that limits the useful choices somehow is that most spells and special rules only affect units with certain traits, the powers of Grimgor (magic and gods are always connected, each lore has a patron god that grants the power) affects only mortals or enemy units in the proximity of mortals.
- There are only rules for one pantheon in the rule book, all the other gods and pantheons are only mentioned in the fluff
- Guardians of Regalia, a conglomerate native spirits and gods and lately some new gods, the incarnates Grimgor, Gelt and Nagash, there are thousand of gods and their relevance changes over time and in different regions, but there are seven big gods that have seven schools of magic associated with them and have rules in the book
- Geshemet or Gesheket or something like this (male and female, fertility, natural disaster) is the head of the pantheon, the other six gods are dual pair of good and evil:
two death gods: Nagahs and Morr
two smith and labour gods: Hashut and Gelt
two war gods: Grimgor and Myrmidia
- five other pantheon get a page of fluff each, and additional minor pantheons/deities are mentioned in the fluff. The big five are Chaos, Sigmar, Cuth’adai (elven gods), Exoatl (old ones) and the triumvi-rats (Horned Rat + 2 more)
- all characters can earn favor of their gods and get promoted just like the chaos champions until they reach apotheosis, this is also a huge mechanic in the game + you can field gods or at least their avatars, but only three incarnates have rules in the book FALSE
Rules
- there is only one ruleset (don’t know what is in the AoS box, but in the book there is no distinction between skirmish mode and battle mode or something like this)
- rules have nothing to do with the old warhammer rules,
- profile is: Melee, Range, Might, Armour, Initiative, Resolve, Wounds, values from 1-6, lower is better FALSE - simple turn sequence: initiative -> player 1 unit 1 moves, shoots, casts -> p1 unit 2 moves, shoots, casts -> ... -> player 2 moves, shoots, casts -> melee
- players roll always against each other, for example Melee vs Initiative and Range vs Initiative, Might vs Armour FALSE - units regenerate all lost wounds at the end of the phase
- both sides in a melee fight simultaneously, winner can roll to fight instantaneously another round until one side is extinct or one side chooses to break from the combat
- there is no moral system or combat resolution whatsoever, but unit can be bounced back FALSE - units use a 1” 40k formation without any facing
- magic spells are all one-use only, when you use it, you have to discard the card FALSE - you can collect ascension points throughout the game and spend the point to buff your champions, mechanic depends on your god(s) FALSE - unit costs points as before, you are not allowed to field multiple units of the same kind unless the former unit have full strength - there are all kinds of unit sizes from 1-3 to 3-15 (that’s the highest I have seen), but you can field lots of different 1-man units FALSE - you don’t buy champions, a set number of models are automatically upgraded to champions, but you cannot exceed the limit FALSE - there are rules for different weapons, magic items, war engines, monsters, special rules, etc and a large section for scenarios and terrain, larger than the actual rules FALSE
Setting
game is set on world Regalia that is connected with other young realms through portals of the old ones. Young realms are realms that were populated by the old creators and were guided on similar historical paths. They were untouched by chaos but this has changed since the arrival of sigmar (as a new faith) and archaon (as an actual emissary in flesh and blood)
there is no explanation (or just a brief one so that I have missed it) how this all came to be, just a description of the history of Regalia (and to a lesser extent some neighbouring realms)
On Regalia is dominated by hundreds of human kingdoms. Fast travel is possible through a number of stone circles that allows mages to open portal from one to another and a system of streams and seas under the earth that can be navigated by ship. There were a long period of peace curated by the Exoatl (Old Ones) that watched over the world from the North and Southpole. But then suddenly new faiths arrived, lots of human tribes started to pray to Sigmar and to conquer their neighbouring kingdoms. These lands are each independent, but are united in their faith to Sigmar. The history ends with the conquering of the Worlds Edge mountains and the crowning of the first emperor. At the same time, the first agents of Chaos arrived and began to corrupt the native people. A part of the Waaghkins rebelled against the old ones in favour of new gods, the Skaven arrived the first time, and in the south and east a death cult began to spread. The world is in turmoil. There are lots of unfinished story hooks so I think the story will be continued, but that might be wishful thinking.
humans are the majority in this world and they have kingdom and tribes everywhere, most of the known earth-inspired regions like cathay are there, but they are not described as fully flegded feudal nations but constantly changing petty empires and nomadic people ruled by warlords and champions of the gods. there are two factions of humans, the worshippers of sigmar and the polytheistic rest, both are not monocultural, but have different skin colors and cultures. Women fight beside men!
The dominion of sigmar is special, because they are the only ones that are reluctant to allow any other race than humans. They have only one god and their goal is to destroy all other gods and conquer their domains - for the greater good of the world of course. This has nothing in common with the Empire of the old world, except the heraldry, griffons are still en vogue. All tribes and city states and kingdoms are independent, the only common ground is their faith, the emperor is only a warlord with the purpose to expands the dominion towards the east. There a still knightly orders, zealots, witchhunters - so they retain some of their medieval flair but there are no state troops. There is no gunpowder, except from some dwarven imports, but they are known for using large warwaggons on their trek to the east. Kislec, Estalia, Araby, city states of Bretonnia, Norse and tribes of the Reiklands are part of the dominion. There are also some enclaves scattered across the world that are connected with magic portals
The Skaven arrived on their own on Regalia and are basically the same. Haven’t spent much time on them. They have now three gods called the triumvi-rat …..
Dawikorr (dwarfs) FALSE and Inneadim (elfs) FALSE have their own realms that are connected with Regalia. The Inneadim have outposts in America.
Dawikorr are only a legend on Regalia and nobody has seen them, but there are legends that they aid whorshippers of Sigmar in peril. They deliver the dominions of Sigmar with artifacts. They live underneath the world Karak Korr and guard the Soul Mill. Dawikorr have rules, so they can be fielded.
The Soul Mill is a huge machinery that allows minor deities to feed on the power of dead spirits or let them reincarnate or serve them as guardian hosts. It was built by the surviving dwarves of the old world on command of the Incarnates on a older machinery of the old ones. The dwarfs guard the soul mill and are aligned with Sigmar after the shattering of the Incarnates, but are under siege of the skaven that have found their way on this world and managed to steal two mighty souls that formed their new gods.
Inneadim whorship the dreamers, gods that have dreamt themselves, basically the elven gods. They live on their own world and protect the dreamchild. Under Araloth they founded enclaves on Regalia in search for the archelves, lost gods of their pantheon. They are a darker take on the elves, nightmare are as much part of their culture then dreams. They use necromancy and the death god Ynnead is at the centre of their pantheon. But they still live in symbiosis with the nature. The artwork shows an elf on a feathered mount, not like a chocobo, but more like a feathered raptor. the artbook shows pictures (and rules) from all existing elf armies.
Skaven and Dawikorr are the only races that use blackpowder, the rest of Regalia is on stuck on an ancient/medieval tech level. The Exoatl use magic techno gear. There is a certain level of anachronistic gear but it is not steampunk but powered by ancient magic. The only steampunk elements are in the Skaven and to a lesser extent the neo-dwarven fluff.
Chaos has no foothold in the north but is anywhere and consists of corrupted tribes and companies from every region of the world. The barbarian theme of the nomadic tribes is more associated with khorne than with chaos as a whole. Beastmen and demons are likely part of their faction because they are described in the same chapter (both in the fluff and unit cards), but demons can be summoned by everyone, so I don’t know for sure. And beastmen have very few pictures, so that’s a bad omen.
Waaghkins: orcs, goblins and are the servants of the old gods and live in a strict caste system, orcs are the manual laborers. There is a new race called nigmos: a tall and slender priest caste. FALSE Waaghkins travel the undersea, a system of flooded caverns that connects the whole world, on longboats and do the dirty work for the Exoatl. There is an artwork of the three different kinds of greenskins (no squigs and snotlings mentioned): an ork in very strange armour, very front heavy, textured like a symmetric turtle shell, he wields is an axe with multiple disc shape blades, goblin looked like a viking but has a futuristic looking handgun, the third was taller than a ork, female, slender - probably a nigmo. But in the photos of actual miniatures only show the old orc style. There is a subfaction of waaghkins that changed allegiance from the old gods to grimgor incarnate and are much more ferocious than their cousins.
undeads, deamons and spirits, and guardian hosts are used by every faction of the game, necromancy but not summoning is common in the dominion of Sigmar. The Inneadim are famous for their use of animated constructs. These things are not a big taboo in Regalia. However the most fearsome necromancers are (obviously) employed by the Empire of Nehekhara (which is not a desolate wasteland and has no egyptian vibe but is a rich and green country and feels more babylonian to me) and their death gods. But there is no Undead faction per se anymore. Vampires are called Necrarchs now.
Guardians hosts are troops that were granted by a god from another realm or the realm of the dead. They are living beings and have free will, but were brought to Regalia on the command of a deity.
- Lizardmen are not gone. TRUE There is a race called Servants of the Exoatl that guard the pole portals on flying pyramids, but no drawings and no fluff page (other races and tribess get at least half a page). FALSE They get unit cards for their old units (which confirms that they are simply lizardmen with a new name), but instead of beautiful pages with pictures like the rest of the bunch they get a simple list in the appendix of the compendium book.
Beastmen get the same lowkey treatment, but ogres get pictures and all, but I cannot say with which pantheon/faction they align. They are mortal, so you can use them in any the guardians of regalia army, but I don’t know if this is a stop gap solution or not.
Age of Sigmar box content:
Extrapolated from the pictures, they are the only new models. If you think you get 3-5 UNITS for each side, you are wrong. you get 10-15 (haven’t counted) CHARACTERS per side. FALSE Each model is really individual and it is in no way possible to field the majority of them as a visual coherent unit. FALSE It is late and this summary is long as it is, so I make this brief, but I will come back later and add some info on the miniatures. Chaos looks very similar to the old style except the berserkers, the Sigmarite Force is completely different. FALSE
Missionary Force:
3 Knights of the Order of Sigmars Blood, Roman looking armour but more bulky, leather Bands, swords and teardrop-shaped shields, champion is a woman
a pair of vigilantes: Male and female, leathercloaked, tricorn, 2 hand-crossbows FALSE a hand full of heavy armoured warrior with different weapons and cloaks, almost knightly in appearance but completely over the top bulky, some have eagleshaped helmets FALSE One hooded, chainmail wearing, hammer wielding girl
a bulldog FALSE standard bearer: naked, chains that are hooked into the flesh, very archaic looking
one arabic looking guy with a two-handed scimitar and full armour
one guy in rags that wields a chain that burns at both ends, very impractical looking FALSE
Chaos Cult:
two outriders, basically chaos barbarians as we know them, but female FALSE ~5 berserkers: african looking, no armour, barefeet, clad in cloth stripes, two axes, bald and gaunt looking, not overly muscular, bone chain, both male and female FALSE three pristesses: flowing robes, sacrifical ziggzagged daggers, skullmasks FALSE two armoured harpies with spears and shields, crooked looking, feathered wings FALSE at least five chaos warriors similar in appearance to the old chaos warriors, very dynamic fur cloaks and poses, one of them bigger on a larger base, all male as far as I could see FALSE one large bloodletter, almost twice the size of a human FALSE the leader has armour that looks like a chaos dwarfish, very babylonic, rides a demonwolf, a juggernaut, but with flesh and fur and spikes
some more viking-like infantry but with more chainmail FALSE That’s only a broad description. Every model is highly individual. FALSE
Sorry for the chaotic nature of the info, I spent the evening writing this in a very fast manner. This is only the tip of the iceberg and I will come back with a little bit more soon - hopefully in a more ordered fashion. If you have a questions or need specifics and a topic, feel free to ask, maybe I remember something of use.
streamdragon wrote: Honest question: I haven't played every tabletop war/skirmish game out there. Is there any other game that doesn't measure from bases or some other uniform spot?
Battlefleet Gothic.. I dunno.. I think there are a few others but I cannot remember them off the top of my head.
BFG measures everything from the flying base stem. Still a uniform point.
Accolade wrote: Yeah, I think there may be an attempt to paint Dark Elves more as jerk-ass elves, but not inherently evil. That way they don't get dumped into the Chaos slot.
And it's more kid-friendly that way. You know, slavery and torture, scary stuff, might put parents off.
ShaneTB wrote: To which it's all opinion (like me disliking Tau as it's aimed at younger people like my brother; anime; ugh).
Every 40k army is aimed at younger people. Hence the cartoony sculpts with goofy proportions and the lack of daemon titties across GW's entire range.
Dark Eldar are kind of the only one that stands out now, and even those models aren't really perfect.
For me the biggest turnoff about modern GW has got to be the writing. It's embarrasing to see them try so hard to make every damn line sound like the most epic, metal thing in the world. It's like Michael Bay is directing Warhammer now.
And their naming convention of just sticking two words together... These names aren't indicative or evocative of anything. I can't even tell stuff apart anymore. I used to find the term "grimdark" annoying, but if that wasn't a meme GW would've actually used it on something.
Then there's their insistent IP-protection, which makes them sound like they're in denial about being geeks. (It's not a comic book, it's a graphic novel.) And like they're lying about the nature of their settings.
So when the world collapsed, only its core remained which Sigmar clung to and was aided by the great drake whoever that is and where they have been hiding.
Sigmar is able to forge his palace on Azyr, the core basically acting as a sun/moon?
The emperor.. I mean Sigmar sets on a crusade to find all his sons...I mean realms and briefly united them until gods be gods, its good old fashioned punch in the face time.
Quite like the setup at the moment, like how the old world still exists in some way, I'll see where the story goes.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, buring, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spaying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
Dwarves- Duardin
Dark Elves- Red Slayers? (not anywhere near positive on this one)
Lizardmen- Seraphon
Beastmen- Brayherd
Skaven- Still Skaven!
Vampire Counts- Deathmages?
Orcs- Orruks
Grots- Still Grots!
Ogres- Ogors
I'm assuming Elves will be renamed, just don't see them mentioned. Humans, well, maybe they'll be called "Kirbians"?
A collosal, terrible, flaming, buring, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spaying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
fantasic mental image there
I keep coming back to the thread and thinking that something will turn up that will bring all this together into a cool balanced game....
Dwarves- Duardin
Elves- Aelfs
- Dark Elves- Red Slayers? Dark Aelfs? Not anywhere near positive on this one (thanks Eldarain!)
Lizardmen- Seraphon
Beastmen- Brayherd
Skaven- Still Skaven!
Vampire Counts- Still Vampires (probably)
Orcs- Orruks
Grots- Still Grots!
Ogres- Ogors
Humans- well, maybe they'll be called "Kirbians"?
That new "creation myth" read like a sixteen year old handing me the idea for his first novel at a writing convention.
Sigmar and sigmarite?
Is that like Gundam and Gundanium alloy?
So all very imaginative and mythological and High Fantasy.
But Dwarves and Elves now appear ready to be good old pals.
And assume anything with a pointy Ear is an Elf, so all flavors work together.
And ultimately the discord caused by the muddy, nitty gritty existing armies just looks and feels "off" in the face of Star Realms and Heavenly Cities on a Hill...
Think this really put the last nail in the coffin for me.
Will stick with the wonderful, joyful variety and detail and DIRT and GRIME of the "World before Time" that was the WoW.
AND LO! was the world torn asunder and the forces of good and evil scattered across the cosmos. But power begets power and new realms emerged, fantastical realms of untold wonder.
The Ancient One watched, as ever, until one fateful day he arose, cast aside his raiments and declared:
"Nope. This is dumb."
unmercifulconker wrote: So when the world collapsed, only its core remained which Sigmar clung to and was aided by the great drake whoever that is and where they have been hiding.
Sigmar is able to forge his palace on Azyr, the core basically acting as a sun/moon?
The emperor.. I mean Sigmar sets on a crusade to find all his sons...I mean realms and briefly united them until gods be gods, its good old fashioned punch in the face time.
Quite like the setup at the moment, like how the old world still exists in some way, I'll see where the story goes.
Well, the God-Emperor does have a seat on a golden throne:
GW sure has put the "crazytrain" into full gear with all these new names. It's as if they seriously believe that their drop in sales is NOT because of A) Terrible rules B) Lack of customer focus C) High prices but D) COPYRIGHT
Who the hell is stealing GWs copyright? and what could they possibly do to GW that GW isn't already doing to themselves?? It's insane that the chapterhouse lawsuit diverted GW from improving their games and instead has them focusing on stupid name changes for a copyright no one is even abusing?
(3rd party models for models GW doesnt make.. creates more players for their games anyway)
Dwarves- Duardin
Dark Elves- Red Slayers? (not anywhere near positive on this one)
Lizardmen- Seraphon
Beastmen- Brayherd
Skaven- Still Skaven!
Vampire Counts- Deathmages?
Orcs- Orruks
Grots- Still Grots!
Ogres- Ogors
I'm assuming Elves will be renamed, just don't see them mentioned. Humans, well, maybe they'll be called "Kirbians"?
Welp. This is not for me.
Ogors? Did some work experience pupil misspell this or something?
On something of a tangent. If these names are correct can GW trademark these when likenesses (models) have only months previously been named something else?
Was the battlescroll for the cultist guys ever leaked? Given the "you can use as many models as will fit on the board" as well as the advantage to the outnumbered player thing the difference between strong and spammy dudes would be a very interesting thing to know
I wanted... I really wanted to give it a chance. I'm not as long in the hobby as some other people here, but I invested a lot of imagination, time, passion and of course money into it.
Considering the fact that I played Warhammer Fantasy less than 40k, although I liked it more, is the reason why I feel ashamed right now, for all that is good I even refused to use Forgeworld stuff in 40k because Fantasy didn't get the same amount of love.
So you see, I wanted it to suceed, to carry on the legacy of an World I loved.
But after the newest leaks, I can't do it anymore. It has Warhammer in its name, but nothing of its soul.
Me and my roomate downloaded the Regiments of renown rules, and try to get our hands on every rules containing book there is.
We will keep playing 8th, It might not been a great end, but it is Warhammer.
Renaming everything simply for trademark purposes is pretty damn stupid when in the process you destroyed a game system and world that had serious brand recognition.
Somehow I doubt that there would be a Total War: Warhammer if they had to use Age of Sigmar, Seraphons and Orruks. Trademarks don't mean jack when your product is a joke.
Kirasu wrote: Renaming everything simply for trademark purposes is pretty damn stupid when in the process you destroyed a game system and world that had serious brand recognition.
Somehow I doubt that there would be a Total War: Warhammer if they had to use Age of Sigmar, Seraphons and Orruks. Trademarks don't mean jack when your product is a joke.
They've become a parody of themselves.
I blame that Mantic guy, James; he is obviously a mole sent by Mantic to help GW along towards their demise.
The renaming (which I'm taking to be true but I don't recall seeing the actual confirmation) is beyond dumb. Miniatures are very visual. People don't care if it's called an Orc, an Ork, a Green Skin, a Marauder, an Orox, an Uruk Hai or whatever else.. If it looks like it's usable, it's usable.. Protecting a name is just a petty jab back at 3rd party that will do nothing to help them.
MLaw wrote: The renaming (which I'm taking to be true but I don't recall seeing the actual confirmation) is beyond dumb. Miniatures are very visual. People don't care if it's called an Orc, an Ork, a Green Skin, a Marauder, an Orox, an Uruk Hai or whatever else.. If it looks like it's usable, it's usable.. Protecting a name is just a petty jab back at 3rd party that will do nothing to help them.
Kirasu wrote: Renaming everything simply for trademark purposes is pretty damn stupid when in the process you destroyed a game system and world that had serious brand recognition.
Well, it isn't a retcon just a jump in the story. The Warhammer World is past but it's not like it never existed. Renaming people, races and (new) nations after those time makes kind of sense background-wise.
And... they could always use the old WW for games or licenses. Not sure if they do, but they could.
nudibranch wrote: I have a feeling that within the wargaming community, 'competitive' has become such a loaded word that it only seems to refer to 'WAACTFGs' for some people.
Quite possibly. That's certainly how I respond to the word competitive. Perhaps that is wrong of me.
On the other hand, the wargaming community now seems to think that narrative gaming is about making a story up about your army you've built for a tournament, explaining why the shoebox you've brought is actually a tank, or that it's about 'group therapy' or 'cuddling'.
Well that's the point, hyperbole for hyperbole.
Isn't it better to be called cuddlegamer than tfg or complete dick (as you called people bringing op lists)? Sound kind of sweet imo. Now I actualy think I have to up the name calling to match heh.
plastictrees wrote: Is it clearly written as Aelf somewhere? The Order blurb is blurry enough that it might be Aeelf or Aefl or Aell or Aetl or sigh.....
Long ago in an ancient land,
I Kirby the Swirling master of profits,
Unleashed a terrible game!
But nobody dared oppose me!
So I spewed out a load of garbage where my word is law!,
now nobody will be able to undo Age of Kirby!
plastictrees wrote: Is it clearly written as Aelf somewhere? The Order blurb is blurry enough that it might be Aeelf or Aefl or Aell or Aetl or sigh.....
Dwarves- Duardin
Dark Elves- Red Slayers? (not anywhere near positive on this one)
Lizardmen- Seraphon
Beastmen- Brayherd
Skaven- Still Skaven!
Vampire Counts- Deathmages?
Orcs- Orruks
Grots- Still Grots!
Ogres- Ogors
I'm assuming Elves will be renamed, just don't see them mentioned. Humans, well, maybe they'll be called "Kirbians"?
Dwarves- Duardin
Dark Elves- Red Slayers? (not anywhere near positive on this one)
Lizardmen- Seraphon
Beastmen- Brayherd
Skaven- Still Skaven!
Vampire Counts- Deathmages?
Orcs- Orruks
Grots- Still Grots!
Ogres- Ogors
I'm assuming Elves will be renamed, just don't see them mentioned. Humans, well, maybe they'll be called "Kirbians"?
Cant be real, too dumb. I wait and see.
I didn't generate it out of thin air man, I pulled it right from the images of the WD!
plastictrees wrote: Is it clearly written as Aelf somewhere? The Order blurb is blurry enough that it might be Aeelf or Aefl or Aell or Aetl or sigh.....
Azyrheim entry. Third paragraph.
Azyrheim is the place that Sigmar rules from.
Yup. It mentions refugees heading there including Aelfs.
MWHistorian wrote: This is seriously one of those games you buy with your friend, play a few times, get bored and forget about it.
Bingo! Except the price point is a bit higher than most impulse buys...and the fact that those types of games don't generally require you to put together 40-something models and paint them.
MWHistorian wrote: This is seriously one of those games you buy with your friend, play a few times, get bored and forget about it.
Bingo! Except the price point is a bit higher than most impulse buys...and the fact that those types of games don't generally require you to put together 40-something models and paint them.
Yeah, I feel like the set itself is decent. The models are pretty cool, but I feel the cost to the game itself is wayyyyyy to high.
Dwarves- Duardin
Dark Elves- Red Slayers? (not anywhere near positive on this one)
Lizardmen- Seraphon
Beastmen- Brayherd
Skaven- Still Skaven!
Vampire Counts- Deathmages?
Orcs- Orruks
Grots- Still Grots!
Ogres- Ogors
I'm assuming Elves will be renamed, just don't see them mentioned. Humans, well, maybe they'll be called "Kirbians"?
Red Slayers I think are more likely Dwarf Slayers....and 'regular' dwarfs are 'Gearhead Duardin.'
Vampire Counts are called 'Soulblight Vampires' and I assume the Necromancers are called 'Deathmages.'
I think goblins have now forever been changed to 'grots'....so now what are Night Goblins going to be called? 'Night Grots?' Forrest Goblins might be 'Deepwood Grots?'
I'm afraid to find out what the Elves ended up getting changed to...
My brother's really into Gundam, and he told me that supposedly "gundanium" was only a thing in Gundam Wing, and people kinda groan about it like how we're all groaning about all this crap. And it was supposedly never mentioned again.
EVERYONE STOP! Stop your raging! You can't talk about any of it, because the game's not out yet! This is all rumor and conjecture until we've all got the box and the books in our hands and seen it with our own eyes. For all you know someone just made this gak up to troll you and you all look like a bunch of asses. Patience!
Wait until the game comes out and we know for really real that they changed all the names for no reason and came up with really goofy fluff. And even then don't be negative about it because I don't like it, and this is a GW forum so if you don't like GW why are you even here?
Dwarves- Duardin Dark Elves- Red Slayers? (not anywhere near positive on this one) Lizardmen- Seraphon Beastmen- Brayherd Skaven- Still Skaven! Vampire Counts- Deathmages? Orcs- Orruks Grots- Still Grots! Ogres- Ogors
I'm assuming Elves will be renamed, just don't see them mentioned. Humans, well, maybe they'll be called "Kirbians"?
To add to and clarify on this: Order: Sigmar and his Stormcast Eternals -new Duardin - dwarfs Red Slayers - regular humans: empire, bretonnia, etc. (not clear on this) Aelf - combined elves: dark, high, and wood Seraphon - lizardmen
Chaos: Mortal followers (if a new name, not clear) - WoC Bray herds (also not clear on if new name. I am inclined to say it will stay beastmen) - beastmen Skaven/ratmen - skaven (duh) Daemon hosts - DoC
Death: Not specified, though there are some pretty "inspired" names included such as deathmages, deathrattlers, and dead walkers (cause those of course aren't anything related to zombies) - combination of VoC and Tomb Kings
Destruction: Orruks - Orks Grots - Goblins Ogors - OK
So the gang's all here, unlike some rumors that said lizardmen and others would be fazed out (though I guess Bret is still unconfirmed). Seems to have a lot of options for Order (anyone else seeing the new IoM allies/battle-bros situation?) with 8 of the current factions available. Death seems to have the least, which makes me wonder if GW has something planned to add another sub-faction to it.
Of course everything that comes from me is pure speculation and definitely not an invitation for pretre to track
Kirasu wrote: Renaming everything simply for trademark purposes is pretty damn stupid when in the process you destroyed a game system and world that had serious brand recognition.
Somehow I doubt that there would be a Total War: Warhammer if they had to use Age of Sigmar, Seraphons and Orruks. Trademarks don't mean jack when your product is a joke.
Totally agree, it is way beyond stupid. It's becoming a laughing stock at this stage.Wow, just wow
Elfs go from having High Elves, Dark Elves and Wood Elves with some really nice fluff, lore etc to being called 'Aelfs'. Seriously that's nearer to Scandinavian naming constructs from a linguistic point of view.
Dwarfs also had a very solid background fluff and naming pattern like the Elves. Now they are the 'Duardim'; what are they? Dim Dwarves?
Goblins (Night Goblins, Forest Goblins) are now Grots. Hello 40K. So does that mean they are now Forest Grots and Night Grots?
Ogres - Ogors
Orcs - Orruks
Plain ridiculous and totally unnecessary
Mother of God. This is just blow after blow. Those names... words can not express It's funny because I was willing to overlook the balance issues and I just about came to terms with the huge humans but the names of the races... I just can't. Sorry GW.
Sidstyler wrote: No, this is the kind of game you buy so you can use the models in another game.
No, this is the kind of game you don't buy and wait for the boxes of models come out so you can convert them into true scale space marines. Who needs all the other gak?
No, this is the kind of game you buy so you can use the models in another game.
But you're damned if if you do, damned if you don't as GW don't do any market research. You've just gone and added +1 to their unit sales for AoS regardless of what you're using it for.
Dwarves- Duardin
Dark Elves- Red Slayers? (not anywhere near positive on this one)
Lizardmen- Seraphon
Beastmen- Brayherd
Skaven- Still Skaven!
Vampire Counts- Deathmages?
Orcs- Orruks
Grots- Still Grots!
Ogres- Ogors
I'm assuming Elves will be renamed, just don't see them mentioned. Humans, well, maybe they'll be called "Kirbians"?
To add to and clarify on this:
Order: Sigmar and his Stormcast Eternals -new
Duardin - dwarfs
Red Slayers - regular humans: empire, bretonnia, etc. (not clear on this)
Aelf - combined elves: dark, high, and wood
Seraphon - lizardmen
Chaos: Mortal followers (if a new name, not clear) - WoC Bray herds (also not clear on if new name. I am inclined to say it will stay beastmen) - beastmen
Skaven/ratmen - skaven (duh)
Daemon hosts - DoC
Death: Not specified, though there are some pretty "inspired" names included such as deathmages, deathrattlers, and dead walkers (cause those of course aren't anything related to zombies - combination of VoC and Tomb Kings
Destruction: Orruks - Orks
Grots - Goblins
Ogors - OK
So the gang's all here, unlike some rumors that said lizardmen and others would be fazed out (though I guess Bret is still unconfirmed). Seems to have a lot of options for Order (anyone else seeing the new IoM allies/battle-bros situation?). Death seems to have the least, which makes me wonder if GW has something planned to add another sub-faction to it.
Of course everything that comes from me is pure speculation and definitely not an invitation for pretre to track
No, this is the kind of game you buy so you can use the models in another game.
But you're damned if if you do, damned if you don't as GW don't do any market research. You've just gone and added +1 to their unit sales for AoS regardless of what you're using it for.
So there's fantasy stuff supposedly from now until October so week after AoS book 1?
NAVARRO wrote: OI! Who approved these names?
Orrucks?! Ogors?
Really? I mean Really!?
GW paranoia with the IP is going to be the death of them, to the point they destroy their own established Icons.
I thought it was getting bad with minor changes like Imperial Guard to Astra Militarum but this just takes the biscuit. Anything to be said for starting a Save Warhammer petition on Change.org?? ...........
Aelf will probably be split among the different races that reside among different planes. High will be in the Light realm, Dark will be in Shadow, and Wood in Life.
So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
I am not really a fantasy player, although I do have the MIB 6th edition set. I am not crazy about the system, but I liked the world. I loved and still have Man O' War. I think GW would have been better just coming up with a new system using the same world they have been using rather than flushing it all down the toilet and starting fresh. I wasn't a fan before, but now I am even less of one.
Really seems like a big risk GW is taking here. I don't see a return of investment like they might be hoping. I think its just going to go in the same direction as the hobbit now.
Again, was never really a fantasy player, but this guarantees I will never be either.
Tank_Dweller wrote: Mother of God. This is just blow after blow. Those names... words can not express It's funny because I was willing to overlook the balance issues and I just about came to terms with the huge humans but the names of the races... I just can't. Sorry GW.
Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
mikhaila wrote: So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
This pretty much says it all. In order to make it playable, house rules are required.
mikhaila wrote: So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
You've got a lot of help if you want it, and if enough of the WHFB vets can be convinced to give WAOS a real go. I'm very interested to see what the community pulls together towards just such an end.
mikhaila wrote: So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
This pretty much says it all. In order to make it playable, house rules are required.
Their really running with the have it your way. and you do what YOU want style of what i cant even call a game.
What a fethin shame.
Well im still in the wait and see. and i have no issues with houseing the points costs at least. that seems an easy thing to do.
That and just play 8th.
RacerX wrote: Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
The problem with that is Mantic sucks. They can stay over there in the land of Kickstarter restic trash-landia.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mikhaila wrote: So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
So, to sell their product, you're going to write the rules for their game for them. Man, I hope you make a lot of money off of GW products because if I were in your shoes I'd be welcoming my new MtG overlords.
If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
"Points" seems like a recklessly clear use of the english language.
I would go with WarSCORE!
When you want a game of Warhammer you scream "What's your WarSCORE!" at your opponent, punch your faction decoder rings together to determine deployment and throw down!
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
Do they tell you what size the units are? Or does the 1+ unit size problem remain?
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
migooo wrote: So anyone know any other fantasy rules Save for mantic ones then?
Depends on what you want to do with the rules.
If you want to use your existing Warhammer armie, then Mantic probably is best.
I have hear good things about Hordes of the Things, but have never played it.
Leviathan is good, and the rulebook is fairly inexpensive (5 GBP at Scotia/Grendel).
Chronascope... I know people that really like it, but it never really excited me.
Fantasy Warlord, by the long departed Folio Works was a lot of fun. (Finding it... may be hard.)
Fantasy Warriors - by the equally extinct Grenadier Miniatures is still available as a free download. (Played it way, way back when... and don't remember anything about it.)
But, my main, non-Mantic suggestion is the second edition of TSR's Battle System. (There is a local group that has been having weekly battles since the 'eighties.) I have a PDF that I bought on RPGNow... not sure if the PDF is still there or not. Worth looking for, and compatible with 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons....
Oh, but they still don't show a model cap.. so.. that's a little confusing to me.. unit caps still might be based on scenarios.. so I dunno.. if not then this is more confusing than I care to mess with.
All this focus on the lack of points and the name changes. But even with points values and awesome names, it still seems like this would be a pretty bad game.
Even assuming you had a way to pick roughly even forces for a pickup game, and the background stuff was awesome, does anyone think they would like playing this game?
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
Yeah, we seen them earlier. They tell you what units you can take, but no mention of how many models in each unit. You could have two units of Chaos Warriors, and each unit could contain 700,000 Chaos Warriors.
mikhaila wrote: So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
This pretty much says it all. In order to make it playable, house rules are required.
I am kinda surprised there isn't more of a "modding" scene with Warhammer in all its carnations or maybe there is and I am oblivious to it. We need a website like steamworks where people can upload their mods and they can be rated and discussed so a real buzz can be created around them.
TheAuldGrump wrote: But, my main, non-Mantic suggestion is the second edition of TSR's Battle System. (There is a local group that has been having weekly battles since the 'eighties.) I have a PDF that I bought on RPGNow... not sure if the PDF is still there or not. Worth looking for, and compatible with 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons....
The Auld Grump
I still have my copies of that and the first edition Battlesystem.
Albino Squirrel wrote: All this focus on the lack of points and the name changes. But even with points values and awesome names, it still seems like this would be a pretty bad game.
Even assuming you had a way to pick roughly even forces for a pickup game, and the background stuff was awesome, does anyone think they would like playing this game?
Since the whole thing isn't out and we don't know if the 4 pages of rules are the complete rulebook or just the starter pamphlet.. I don't know. Anyone else claiming they do know or that they won't like it has a bit of Green Eggs and Ham. Admittedly, I have hated most of GWs latest (2 years or so) releases and decisions, but this seems different enough to at least have a look.. even if that look is from 50 paces..
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
I don't see where I was "putting words into your mouth".
Tank_Dweller wrote: I am kinda surprised there isn't more of a "modding" scene with Warhammer in all its carnations or maybe there is and I am oblivious to it. We need a website like steamworks where people can upload their mods and they can be rated and discussed so a real buzz can be created around them.
A result of the paradoxical condemnation of GW's rule writing ability and a fevered insistence to adhere to them as much as possible.
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
Tank_Dweller wrote: I am kinda surprised there isn't more of a "modding" scene with Warhammer in all its carnations or maybe there is and I am oblivious to it.
We stopped playing straight 8E within a couple months
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
Yeah, we seen them earlier. They tell you what units you can take, but no mention of how many models in each unit. You could have two units of Chaos Warriors, and each unit could contain 700,000 Chaos Warriors.
I mentioned it already but scenarios might place a hard cap on any unit.. or otherwise modify what is being brought. There are 15mm systems (that do tournaments too) that don't have points and are scenario drive.. It's a bit overwhelming how narrow-minded most of the immediate responses have been to this without more info or acknowledging that this isn't a new concept and has successfully been done before. From what we've seen does it look like it's on that path.. no.. but until all the cards are on the table it is foolish to make the brash knee-jerk condemnations we're seeing. That said, man I would LOVE to play poker with some of the guys here..
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
Guys.
Some new information.
Please stop all the wild speculation.
If all needs to stop now.
Please.
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
The battalions appear to just be the AoS box contents. I don't see anything listed that isn't in the box. So it's just a way to use the two armies as a cohesive force with added benefits. The warscrolls for the units themselves still don't put a limit on the number of models in the unit. So for the Stormcast Eternals battalion I could field the 2 Liberator squads that come in AoS that consist of 5 models each or expand those same units to be 20 models each. Same thing with the Bloodreavers in the Goretide battalion.
MLaw wrote: If I missed it sorry but over on Taco Bell they have pictures of formations (I think they're batallions) and it specifically tells you what you can take per warband. So all the wild speculation about this and that can stop..
They tell you how many units in each of the two lists, but the rules clearly state that a unit can be as many models as you want. So it's an attempt at making some form of cohesion, but doesn't get around the lack of a balancing mechanism or the poorly written rules.
I didn't say it did, I was just raising awareness of those additional clarifications, please don't put words in my mouth.
Backtracking up the Egyptian river, no?
No.. I never said anything about model counts.. OMG.. it's like I'm surrounded by argumentative highschoolers..
Modifications to Hail Caesar (which is a great game) to add fantasy elements, along with several army lists that will seem familiar to Warhammer players.
migooo wrote: So anyone know any other fantasy rules Save for mantic ones then?
But, my main, non-Mantic suggestion is the second edition of TSR's Battle System. (There is a local group that has been having weekly battles since the 'eighties.) I have a PDF that I bought on RPGNow... not sure if the PDF is still there or not. Worth looking for, and compatible with 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons....
Ok, so my respect for you just quadrupled.
I -loved- that game! Other people? Not so much, but I'd kill to find folks who would play it. Still have my books! (Battlesystem AND AD&D 2nd).
I wonder if a version could be cobbled together using my GW figs. LOL.
Either way - being two days away, I am definitely interested in trying out AoS to see if it plays better than it reads.
The models aren't even that great since they are a wacky scale. Sure if you want an entire true-scale marine army wearing armor that doesn't look like power armor, and having arms in not-bolter poses.. then by all means by this and enjoy the 3 different poses. They remind me of the admech robots... trying so hard to be cool models but end up being childish toys.
I was considering buying the wings until I saw how off the scale is. It's as if GW doesn't even want people buying fantasy models to use in 40k. How many more failures can AoS give us?
RacerX wrote: Just please everyone.
It can stop now...
The Wild Speculation I mean.
Needs to cease now.
No point anymore.
Some info was presented and it all needs to just stop.
Ok?
Thanks
Uh.. Racer someone pointed out to me that they had already seen the stuff I was pointing out and were still arguing anyway.. It's like trying to put out an oil fire with water.. Just let the sucker burn..
Also text from mikhaila, they're serious about the no points thing:
Spoiler:
mikhaila wrote: So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
migooo wrote: So anyone know any other fantasy rules Save for mantic ones then?
But, my main, non-Mantic suggestion is the second edition of TSR's Battle System. (There is a local group that has been having weekly battles since the 'eighties.) I have a PDF that I bought on RPGNow... not sure if the PDF is still there or not. Worth looking for, and compatible with 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons....
Ok, so my respect for you just quadrupled.
I -loved- that game! Other people? Not so much, but I'd kill to find folks who would play it. Still have my books! (Battlesystem AND AD&D 2nd).
I wonder if a version could be cobbled together using my GW figs. LOL.
Either way - being two days away, I am definitely interested in trying out AoS to see if it plays better than it reads.
The beautiful thing about Battlesystem for AD&D 2E was the fact that it was specifically designed to allow you to insert anything you could statblock as a creature or humanoid in the RPG into a unit in Battlesystem. so yeah, everything in Warhammer could easily have a 2E statblock created and then ported to Battlesystem. I ran a 2E campaign into the late 90s where we would pull out Battlesystem for the huge battles where one fig in the unit was equivalent to 10 monsters.
RacerX wrote: Just please everyone.
It can stop now...
The Wild Speculation I mean.
Needs to cease now.
No point anymore.
Some info was presented and it all needs to just stop.
Ok?
Thanks
Uh.. Racer someone pointed out to me that they had already seen the stuff I was pointing out and were still arguing anyway.. It's like trying to put out an oil fire with water.. Just let the sucker burn..
No no, please don't stop, watching you two desperately polishing those turds, slowly and steadily retreating to a new bulwark of feces each time one of your "wait & see, just calm down, wait & see, it can't be that bad" defences falls in the face of the reality that, yes, it is that bad; it's almost as entertaining as the slow-motion trainwreck of the AoS reveal itself.
Tank_Dweller wrote: I am kinda surprised there isn't more of a "modding" scene with Warhammer in all its carnations or maybe there is and I am oblivious to it. We need a website like steamworks where people can upload their mods and they can be rated and discussed so a real buzz can be created around them.
A result of the paradoxical condemnation of GW's rule writing ability and a fevered insistence to adhere to them as much as possible.
People just have to be shown that there is true value in them. We need good mods and we need Youtubers to publicise them and show them in action. There has never been a better time for the community to push for such things.
As always, it falls to the community to clean up GW;s mess. Glad I bailed out months ago.
From the top of my head, would this balance system work?
Give each war scrolls a points value, and then decide on how many war scrolls you want to use in a game. For example, you're having a 10 war scrolls game.
You must take a general - a hero or a lord character.
A hero costs 1 war scroll, a lord 2, and legendary characters (Nagash for example) cost 3 war scrolls. Wizards would probably be best costing 1 war scroll if they're only level 1 or 2.
Take 2 troops choices. Now, this is where it varies.
I would suggest working in 10s, as GW have said in the leaked rules, 100 models per side, should last an evening.
For example. 10 Chaos Warriors cost 2 war scrolls. 20 Empire Spearmen cost 1 war scroll. Forget about equipment. Let them chose what they want. The weapons themselves will have buffs/bonuses in the rules anyway. Two hand weapons extra attack, but weak defence. Spears good against cavalry etc You can double your Chaos warriors to 20 for the cost of 1 war scroll, for a total of 3 scrolls.
Double your empire guys to 40 for one more warscrolls.
Things like ogres should be 2 scrolls a unit. A unit being 5 ogres. Special choices, and Calvary, should be 2 scrolls, with five in a unit. Rare choices should cost 3.
Obviously, you'll have to determine what is common, special, and rare.
Using the above example, we get the following armies for a 10 scroll game
Chaos
20 chaos warriors = 3 scrolls
20 Chaos warriors = 3 scrolls
Hero of Khorne = 1 scrolls
Chariot = 1 scroll
5 Chaos Knights = 2 scrolls
Empire
40 spearmen = 2 scrolls
40 swordsmen = 2 scrolls
Empire Hero - 1 scroll
5 empire knights 2 scrolls
Cannon 2 scrolls
Level 2 fire wizard 1 scroll
Yeah, it's rough, but in previous editions, that made be a pretty fair match up. Chaos have the quality, Empire have the numbers.
Like I say, top of my head. Don't shoot me down for this.
Yeah, I'm not defending anyone.. I've said repeatedly that I'm not writing this off yet because I haven't seen EVERYTHING. I don't think the 4 pages are all of the rules, I'm betting that's just the starter pamphlet. I have said that several times but it's like shouting in the wind..
I like the Chaos models. Mostly for Mordheim prospects (I've said this before too). The not-Space Marines.. meh. I think they would work for some other game systems so I'm not worried about them but they do look kinda wonky.
The model cap.. I think that could be addressed by scenarios. If not, TOs and house rules can pick up the pieces.
At the end of the day, if this sucks, yeah I'm walking away from it just like I did Deadzone, 40k, and I dunno how many other systems.
Necros wrote: How about a "Scroll Point" system based on how the troops and stuff are done nowadays? Like...
Core = 1 Scroll, Special = 2 Scrolls, Rare & Heroes = 4, Lords = 8, Super Mega Tough thing = 16
Then you say I'm gonna play a "15 scroll game" or "20 scroll game" or whatevers?
Warscrolls for units that have been shown so far don't have a model limit for the unit. You and your opponent could bring the same number of scrolls but have a large different in number of models. Since the number of models is what can trigger certain victory conditions model count is more important than ever for balancing armies.
Or just ignore AoS exists and keep playing WFB. However, seeing as WFB wasn't selling any models either....
Keep going backwards until you find a system that works? 7th edition anyone with 8th ed books? 5th edition with 7th ed books? 3rd Ed with AoS units?! There has to be a combination in which WFB doesn't fail.
RacerX wrote: Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
The problem with that is Mantic sucks. They can stay over there in the land of Kickstarter restic trash-landia.
Ninja'ed me on that one. Talk about turd products.
MLaw wrote: Yeah, I'm not defending anyone.. I've said repeatedly that I'm not writing this off yet because I haven't seen EVERYTHING. I don't think the 4 pages are all of the rules, I'm betting that's just the starter pamphlet. I have said that several times but it's like shouting in the wind..
I like the Chaos models. Mostly for Mordheim prospects (I've said this before too). The not-Space Marines.. meh. I think they would work for some other game systems so I'm not worried about them but they do look kinda wonky.
The model cap.. I think that could be addressed by scenarios. If not, TOs and house rules can pick up the pieces.
At the end of the day, if this sucks, yeah I'm walking away from it just like I did Deadzone, 40k, and I dunno how many other systems.
Except we've been told multiple times that no more rules are coming and this is it, so at this point yeah you are just shouting into the wind. It's been pointed out multiple times. And even if it is somehow magically fixed by scenarios, what if I don't want to play the scenarios?
Also text from mikhaila, they're serious about the no points thing:
Spoiler:
mikhaila wrote: So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
It's so bad, I just can't stop watching. Wow...
The thing is, with 40k there was a gigantic playerbase that was going to play whatever the new version was no matter what, and so things like detachments and the like are just taken on the chin to keep playing the game.
But with fantasy... I can't see them keeping very many current players with this reboot (is anyone really willing to put their models up on other model's bases?). So they'd be banking on a lot of new players starting out...
I'm sure some will, but will it be enough... some of the models look great, though, and I can see many people picking them up. But in every other system, the game drives sales... and I can't see people playing this game long...
No no, please don't stop, watching you two desperately polishing those turds, slowly and steadily retreating to a new bulwark of feces each time one of your "wait & see, just calm down, wait & see, it can't be that bad" defences falls in the face of the reality that, yes, it is that bad; it's almost as entertaining as the slow-motion trainwreck of the AoS reveal itself.
MLaw wrote: Yeah, I'm not defending anyone.. I've said repeatedly that I'm not writing this off yet because I haven't seen EVERYTHING. I don't think the 4 pages are all of the rules, I'm betting that's just the starter pamphlet. I have said that several times but it's like shouting in the wind..
I like the Chaos models. Mostly for Mordheim prospects (I've said this before too). The not-Space Marines.. meh. I think they would work for some other game systems so I'm not worried about them but they do look kinda wonky.
The model cap.. I think that could be addressed by scenarios. If not, TOs and house rules can pick up the pieces.
At the end of the day, if this sucks, yeah I'm walking away from it just like I did Deadzone, 40k, and I dunno how many other systems.
Except we've been told multiple times that no more rules are coming and this is it, so at this point yeah you are just shouting into the wind. It's been pointed out multiple times. And even if it is somehow magically fixed by scenarios, what if I don't want to play the scenarios?
it also stands to reason that whatever else comes out has to be compatible with what we've already seen. There'd be no point to using AoS as a starter set to introduce players to the new game if the rest of the game was substantially different than AoS. Every WFB unit from 8ed is getting a warscroll so the basic foundation of AoS is also the basic foundation for the game going forward since everything will be using the same warscroll system. The mechanics of the game may end up with more depth than what's currently available in the AoS box since players won't be limited to the box contents but it can't be that different without turning the introduction game into some sort of horrible bait and switch con.
MLaw wrote: Yeah, I'm not defending anyone.. I've said repeatedly that I'm not writing this off yet because I haven't seen EVERYTHING. I don't think the 4 pages are all of the rules, I'm betting that's just the starter pamphlet. I have said that several times but it's like shouting in the wind..
I like the Chaos models. Mostly for Mordheim prospects (I've said this before too). The not-Space Marines.. meh. I think they would work for some other game systems so I'm not worried about them but they do look kinda wonky.
The model cap.. I think that could be addressed by scenarios. If not, TOs and house rules can pick up the pieces.
At the end of the day, if this sucks, yeah I'm walking away from it just like I did Deadzone, 40k, and I dunno how many other systems.
Except we've been told multiple times that no more rules are coming and this is it, so at this point yeah you are just shouting into the wind. It's been pointed out multiple times. And even if it is somehow magically fixed by scenarios, what if I don't want to play the scenarios?
I honestly dunno what to tell you here. I actually don't like the no-points system and being scenario locked.. My main point was this is very likely not all there is.
As for being told multiple times that there are no more rules coming.. I don't buy it or I wouldn't be saying anything. Perhaps I'm in denial that a game system would be cocky enough to try to contain itself to such a limted number of pages (no offense to the one-page guys). The section on movement, chariots, special rules, flying, characters, challenges, morale.. all of that stuff cannot possibly be contained in 4 pages unless those are some huge mother-flppin pages.
RiTides wrote: The thing is, with 40k there was a gigantic playerbase that was going to play whatever the new version was no matter what, and so things like detachments and the like are just taken on the chin to keep playing the game.
But with fantasy... I can't see them keeping very many current players with this reboot (is anyone really willing to put their models up on other model's bases?). So they'd be banking on a lot of new players starting out...
I'm sure some will, but will it be enough... some of the models look great, though, and I can see many people picking them up. But in every other system, the game drives sales... and I can't see people playing this game long...
Yeah, I think a key thing that some people are having trouble with is that they're not the target audience for AoS, and have been deemed more-or-less irrelevant in GW's eyes.
I agree that it's a big risk, especially with how they've approached it, but apparently sales were such that it's worth the roll of the dice. Didn't Hastings lay this out for us a week or two ago?
RacerX wrote: Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
The problem with that is Mantic sucks. They can stay over there in the land of Kickstarter restic trash-landia.
Ninja'ed me on that one. Talk about turd products.
Perhaps.
But for those who want mass battles, without a dogs dinner of factions/races all mingled together and some cohesion... and are alive and supported?
Well, the list of options is short.
And the post was not about promoting Mantic at all.
I never said it was great.
The post was about how they will/can/should take clear advantage of GW throwing themselves off a cliff!
RacerX wrote: Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
The problem with that is Mantic sucks. They can stay over there in the land of Kickstarter restic trash-landia.
Ninja'ed me on that one. Talk about turd products.
Perhaps.
But for those who want mass battles, without a dogs dinner of factions/races all mingled together and some cohesion... and are alive and supported?
Well, the list of options is short.
And the post was not about promoting Mantic at all.
I never said it was great.
The post was about how they will/can/should take clear advantage of GW throwing themselves off a cliff!
Yeah, Mantic have already been on Facebook and other social media doing a fair bit of "wink wink nudge nudge" type stuff. Kinda funny considering how badly their most recent rules release was received..
Of course the GW rep said these are all the rules, its his job to sell them and at this present moment in time he is right.
GW always keep future releases secret so we spend our money now rather than wait for what we really want to be released.
The main rules will be no different.
Besides, if this really is the disaster some people here are making it out to be, how hard do you think it will be to fix a ruleset that is entirely free and online, far easier than any previous edition.
MLaw wrote: As for being told multiple times that there are no more rules coming.. I don't buy it or I wouldn't be saying anything. Perhaps I'm in denial that a game system would be cocky enough to try to contain itself to such a limted number of pages (no offense to the one-page guys). The section on movement, chariots, special rules, flying, characters, challenges, morale.. all of that stuff cannot possibly be contained in 4 pages unless those are some huge mother-flppin pages.
Have you actually looked at the rules?
They're complete. Not as detailed as WHFB. Not even remotely... Everyone moves the same, flying just lets you move over other models. Challenges, morale, and all the other fiddly stuff is gone. Special rules are covered on the individual Warscrolls.
This is it. There are no more rules coming. WHFB has become Top Trumps with miniatures.
XT-1984 wrote: Of course the GW rep said these are all the rules, its his job to sell them and at this present moment in time he is right.
GW always keep future releases secret so we spend our money now rather than wait for what we really want to be released.
The main rules will be no different.
Besides, if this really is the disaster some people here are making it out to be, how hard do you think it will be to fix a ruleset that is entirely free and online, far easier than any previous edition.
Seriously even GW can't be that stupid to think that telling people these rules are it, when people clearly aren't happy with them, isn't going to turn people away from the game. Yeah they can fix it later, but the damage will have been done. First impressions and all that.
RacerX wrote: Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
The problem with that is Mantic sucks. They can stay over there in the land of Kickstarter restic trash-landia.
Ninja'ed me on that one. Talk about turd products.
Perhaps.
But for those who want mass battles, without a dogs dinner of factions/races all mingled together and some cohesion... and are alive and supported?
Well, the list of options is short.
And the post was not about promoting Mantic at all.
I never said it was great.
The post was about how they will/can/should take clear advantage of GW throwing themselves off a cliff!
Yeah, Mantic have already been on Facebook and other social media doing a fair bit of "wink wink nudge nudge" type stuff. Kinda funny considering how badly their most recent rules release was received..
They have a 2nd edition coming? Or is that bad as well?
I don't know anything on the quality of any of it. Just know they are mostly all ex-GW who know the miniature gaming business.
XT-1984 wrote: Of course the GW rep said these are all the rules, its his job to sell them and at this present moment in time he is right.
GW always keep future releases secret so we spend our money now rather than wait for what we really want to be released.
The main rules will be no different.
Besides, if this really is the disaster some people here are making it out to be, how hard do you think it will be to fix a ruleset that is entirely free and online, far easier than any previous edition.
Judging by GW's own language, it'll be very hard to fix
It's a 4 page rulebook, but already, they've been talking about complex situations and rolling a D6 to fix them
If they can't cope with 4 pages, then a 300 page hardback rulebook, is way out of their league.
Apples and oranges though. Kings of War and Deadzone are such different beasts, so its hard to let a judgement of one rule-set inform another. Especially when Dreadball in between was a very excellent game, especially with a touch of team rebalancing.
I'm of the camp that has really been loving KoW, but as I have no real history with WHFB, I don't know what I am "missing" I suppose. At the very least, its 2nd edition is hella balanced. If the rules aren't crunchy enough for a given player, so be it, but if it has problems they definitely aren't the same ones Age of Sigmar is showing off. :-p
A collosal, terrible, flaming, buring, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spaying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
Best description of Age of Sorrow so far. I laugh out loud with every shade of laughter sth like 3 times per page on average
It's only now that I see how easily they could have bought me despite my eternal nostalgia for whfb and those lovely little regiments on those lovely little squares (cries) - a good trimmed down ruleset, some grimdark artwork, fluff making sense and the magic of warhammer name would make me subconsciously drink the koolaid in no time. But this, this is so pathetic that it makes the initial, "fear mongering" rumors sound like good news.
Dryaktylus wrote: So the Slayers don't find their salvation in a honourable death against mighty foes but in hoarding gold? Well, it's dwarven style too, but...
...
Damn, at first glance I read "backstabbing anal sneak assaults" in the Grot part.
MLaw wrote: As for being told multiple times that there are no more rules coming.. I don't buy it or I wouldn't be saying anything. Perhaps I'm in denial that a game system would be cocky enough to try to contain itself to such a limted number of pages (no offense to the one-page guys). The section on movement, chariots, special rules, flying, characters, challenges, morale.. all of that stuff cannot possibly be contained in 4 pages unless those are some huge mother-flppin pages.
Have you actually looked at the rules?
They're complete. Not as detailed as WHFB. Not even remotely... Everyone moves the same, flying just lets you move over other models. Challenges, morale, and all the other fiddly stuff is gone. Special rules are covered on the individual Warscrolls.
This is it. There are no more rules coming. WHFB has become Top Trumps with miniatures.
Maybe.. but if you've ever bought anything by any other company.. the rules with the starter are dumbed way down. This could be GW trying what M:TG did with their Portals set.. I dunno. I'm probably in denial because if this "is" all she-wrote then yeah.. it's a disaster. I also remember GW misleading, with-holding, or flat out lying about several things in the past to drive sales. Hold off on this, move that.. etc. Frankly, if they're going to continue their business model of milking customers by releasing a crapload of books.. it makes sense. Release a dumbed down beginners rule set.. then release advanced rules, appendices, expanded magic, etc etc.. like the old TSR books.
That said.. I do highly support the idea of playing previous editions of WHFB if this isn't what you like. I tried 6th ed 40k and hate it.. so I play older editions. I like Mordheim which isn't around anymore.. so I play that.. I only own the first printing of the Warmachine rulebook so that's what I play from PP. I'm not a big fan of feeling locked into something I don't like. I don't think it's unreasonable to make sure I don't like this though before I decide that I don't. Dr Seuss wrote a book on that.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, buring, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spaying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
Best description of Age of Sorrow so far. I laugh out loud with every shade of laughter sth like 3 times per page on average
It's only now that I see how easily they could have bought me despite my eternal nostalgia for whfb and those lovely little regiments on those lovely little squares (cries) - a good trimmed down ruleset, some grimdark artwork, fluff making sense and the magic of warhammer name would make me subconsciously drink the koolaid in no time. But this, this is so pathetic that it makes the initial, "fear mongering" rumors sound like good news.
Yeah. It's weird. I was looking at some of my army books earlier and the art and stuff is really damn cool. The whole Warhammer World is really cool, and it's just gone.
•Hay manual gordo seguro... Pero seguro seguro...
-There will be a fat[big] rulebook... for sure. •Eso os lo confirmo ya. Otra cosa es que no lo llamen reglamento sino "expansion" para batallas masivas. Rercordad que la caja de Age of Sigmar es para introducir al juego, tipo Isla de Sangre (por cierto es la leche la ilustración de la cubierta).
- I can confirm you that. A different matter is that they won't call it rulebook, but rather "expansion" for massive battles. Remember that the AoS box is a game introduction, kind of like Island of Blood (By the way, the box illustration is awesome). •El meollo de la cuestión, para los jugadores veteranos llega a finales de mes principios de agosto, con la "nueva magia", "nuevos objetos mágicos", reglas, trasfondo ampliado y facciones explicadas y desgranadas (lo salchichero ampliado).
- Going into specifics, for veteran players it will arrive by the end of the month or start of august, with the "new magic", "new magic objects", rules, expanded background and explained and disected factions (the meaty part expanded). •Dicen que es para batallas masivas o semimasivas no escaramuzas así que... Mantened la calma.
- They are saying it's about massive or halfway massive battles, not skirmishes, so... Stay calm. •Y luego llegan los manuales de las facciones... que serían los codex actuales... en lanzamientos tipo 40k... con sus punticos y trasfondo etc...
- Next, faction books... which are the current codex... 40K style... point cost and fluff included, etc. •Así que gratis, gratis... y pocas reglas... Bueno pues sí, te compras una caja y te viene una carta pero a la hora de la verdad si quieres jugar algo complejo... te tocará soltar la pasta...
-So, free, freee... and few rules... Well, yes, you buy a box and you get a card, but in the end, if you want to play something complex, you'll have to pay up.
Same spanish source that told us about round bases and the new game months before anyone else.
The names are the biggest laugh for me.. because they'll do nothing for what they want, which is IP protection.. there is nothing they can do to any of those races that makes them unique to what has already gone before via other fantasy settings.
Its a total lesson in futility. What ever they are called, it won't stop anyone producing models that sorta look close enough and are just called Orcs, Elves, whatever.
•Hay manual gordo seguro... Pero seguro seguro... -There will be a fat[big] rulebook... for sure. •Eso os lo confirmo ya. Otra cosa es que no lo llamen reglamento sino "expansion" para batallas masivas. Rercordad que la caja de Age of Sigmar es para introducir al juego, tipo Isla de Sangre (por cierto es la leche la ilustración de la cubierta). - I can confirm you that. A different matter is that they won't call it rulebook, but rather "expansion" for massive battles. Remember that the AoS box is a game introduction, kind of like Island of Blood (By the way, the box illustration is awesome). •El meollo de la cuestión, para los jugadores veteranos llega a finales de mes principios de agosto, con la "nueva magia", "nuevos objetos mágicos", reglas, trasfondo ampliado y facciones explicadas y desgranadas (lo salchichero ampliado). - Going into specifics, for veteran players it will arrive by the end of the month or start of august, with the "new magic", "new magic objects", rules, expanded background and explained and disected factions (the meaty part expanded). •Dicen que es para batallas masivas o semimasivas no escaramuzas así que... Mantened la calma. - They are saying it's about massive or halfway massive battles, not skirmishes, so... Stay calm. •Y luego llegan los manuales de las facciones... que serían los codex actuales... en lanzamientos tipo 40k... con sus punticos y trasfondo etc... - Next, faction books... which are the current codex... 40K style... point cost and fluff included, etc. •Así que gratis, gratis... y pocas reglas... Bueno pues sí, te compras una caja y te viene una carta pero a la hora de la verdad si quieres jugar algo complejo... te tocará soltar la pasta... -So, free, freee... and few rules... Well, yes, you buy a box and you get a card, but in the end, if you want to play something complex, you'll have to pay up.
Same spanish source that told us about round bases and the new game months before anyone else.
Link to original?
Also, it's not a fat rulebook. It's not at the start of august. Not new magic, new magic objects. And so far, GW is saying this is it and no further expansion. So they were partially right.
•Hay manual gordo seguro... Pero seguro seguro...
-There will be a fat[big] rulebook... for sure. •Eso os lo confirmo ya. Otra cosa es que no lo llamen reglamento sino "expansion" para batallas masivas. Rercordad que la caja de Age of Sigmar es para introducir al juego, tipo Isla de Sangre (por cierto es la leche la ilustración de la cubierta).
- I can confirm you that. A different matter is that they won't call it rulebook, but rather "expansion" for massive battles. Remember that the AoS box is a game introduction, kind of like Island of Blood (By the way, the box illustration is awesome). •El meollo de la cuestión, para los jugadores veteranos llega a finales de mes principios de agosto, con la "nueva magia", "nuevos objetos mágicos", reglas, trasfondo ampliado y facciones explicadas y desgranadas (lo salchichero ampliado).
- Going into specifics, for veteran players it will arrive by the end of the month or start of august, with the "new magic", "new magic objects", rules, expanded background and explained and disected factions (the meaty part expanded). •Dicen que es para batallas masivas o semimasivas no escaramuzas así que... Mantened la calma.
- They are saying it's about massive or halfway massive battles, not skirmishes, so... Stay calm. •Y luego llegan los manuales de las facciones... que serían los codex actuales... en lanzamientos tipo 40k... con sus punticos y trasfondo etc...
- Next, faction books... which are the current codex... 40K style... point cost and fluff included, etc. •Así que gratis, gratis... y pocas reglas... Bueno pues sí, te compras una caja y te viene una carta pero a la hora de la verdad si quieres jugar algo complejo... te tocará soltar la pasta...
-So, free, freee... and few rules... Well, yes, you buy a box and you get a card, but in the end, if you want to play something complex, you'll have to pay up.
Same spanish source that told us about round bases and the new game months before anyone else.
Don't know the validity of that source, but I do know that sounds like the most "GW" thing to do. Lying en masse to move a current product, while the more lucrative money grab is in the cooker.
Plus, do you realize how much unearned good-will they will try to claim when they bring "back" the mass-battles for fans who miss it?
•Hay manual gordo seguro... Pero seguro seguro...
-There will be a fat[big] rulebook... for sure. •Eso os lo confirmo ya. Otra cosa es que no lo llamen reglamento sino "expansion" para batallas masivas. Rercordad que la caja de Age of Sigmar es para introducir al juego, tipo Isla de Sangre (por cierto es la leche la ilustración de la cubierta).
- I can confirm you that. A different matter is that they won't call it rulebook, but rather "expansion" for massive battles. Remember that the AoS box is a game introduction, kind of like Island of Blood (By the way, the box illustration is awesome). •El meollo de la cuestión, para los jugadores veteranos llega a finales de mes principios de agosto, con la "nueva magia", "nuevos objetos mágicos", reglas, trasfondo ampliado y facciones explicadas y desgranadas (lo salchichero ampliado).
- Going into specifics, for veteran players it will arrive by the end of the month or start of august, with the "new magic", "new magic objects", rules, expanded background and explained and disected factions (the meaty part expanded). •Dicen que es para batallas masivas o semimasivas no escaramuzas así que... Mantened la calma.
- They are saying it's about massive or halfway massive battles, not skirmishes, so... Stay calm. •Y luego llegan los manuales de las facciones... que serían los codex actuales... en lanzamientos tipo 40k... con sus punticos y trasfondo etc...
- Next, faction books... which are the current codex... 40K style... point cost and fluff included, etc. •Así que gratis, gratis... y pocas reglas... Bueno pues sí, te compras una caja y te viene una carta pero a la hora de la verdad si quieres jugar algo complejo... te tocará soltar la pasta...
-So, free, freee... and few rules... Well, yes, you buy a box and you get a card, but in the end, if you want to play something complex, you'll have to pay up.
Same spanish source that told us about round bases and the new game months before anyone else.
See.. if this is true, it's exactly the type of thing I was talking about. There's a hole in the bucket though, so all these tears are never gonna fill it up :/
Lord_Mortis wrote: So DC comics has Convergence, Marvel comics has Secret Wars, and now GW has Age of Sigmar. Is this the summer of reboots or what?
Naw, convergence doesn't count.
They did that craptastic event because DC is moving offices from New York, where they were at for 60 years, to the Warner Bros offices in LA. They had a ton of second string (and a few good writers) knock out a two month event to hold them over while they moved. I even had someone at DC call and warn me about ordering too much, because the tie ins sucked so much
Is there anything out there that suggests or implies that the storm cast eternals will be getting models that can use weapons other than hammers? I personally am not a fan of them as IF I ever get any I would first replace the heads with grey knight heads and then find a way to change the shoulder pads. Right now they are too cartoony, but with enough extra bitz I could make them somewhat palatable.
Sledgehammer wrote: Is there anything out there that suggests or implies that the storm cast eternals will be getting models that can use weapons other than hammers? I personally am not a fan of them as IF I ever get any I would first replace the heads with grey knight heads and then find a way to change the shoulder pads. Right now they are too cartoony, but with enough extra bitz I could make them somewhat palatable.
Just like with Ork Nobz or any other starter box stuff, I imagine they general release for GW's Scibor knockoffs will not be as limited as the starter box kits.. Sometimes my imagination gets the best of me though o_0
There are a bunch of things that just don't add up with this development.
The rules being bad is one of them. GW never make the best of rules, clunky, unbalanced and poorly written yes, but the core rulebooks are generally functional, codex/army books often break the game afterwards of course. But these are just bad. Even with Dreadfleet I could see what they were trying to achieve, but here I have no clue. Its too simplistic to appeal to current fantasy players, not enough direction within the rules for new players to get a foothold in the game properly, who is it for?
Next is timing, the Total computer game is about to introduce the old world top a potential new audience in the million plus range (the last few have reached those numbers), but any crossover is gone, because that world has been removed. This is the bit that really confuses me, because I could even look at this game and think maybe its intended for the computer game players as an introduction into table top gaming without too much worry about the intricacies of movement, challenges and so on. But this game is a different place to the old world, the focus is on the new marines in space, so will not connect with the computer game at all.
I just cannot see any reason behind what is being done at all, or where the destination is supposed to be.
Weren't the other books coming confirmed by some WD pic? Would be armybooks probably and if there was indeed a mass battles suplement and it was the armybooks having points and unit sizes for warscrolls, wouldn't it make the reps words about Age of Simple itself having no points somehow a bit but not really in a twisted way true? Not that I hope or even care, waste of emotions at this point.
If that was the case, the order chaos destruction deat thing would be a blessing, no Dumbarin or Ogorors or sth armybooks.
I love you fantasy guys and all, but this needs to fail on a massive scale. I mean it needs to really really drag GW down next quarter.
For no other reason than to keep this no points bull gak from poisoning 40k further. I mean we already have to suffer with your awful magic system. Now we'll more than likely inherit your lawless points system for 8th. Smh.
They really just needed to stop releasing new things for Fantasy altogether, like never say anything to anyone, keep making what they already make, but just never update it again and see if anyone ever noticed. Instead we get this and it will sell to morons and then they'll be all like "Oh well I guess the fantasy guys liked the pamphlet of rules and no points. So let's burn our other property to the ground as well."
Mr.Church13 wrote: I love you fantasy guys and all, but this needs to fail on a massive scale. I mean it needs to really really drag GW down next quarter.
For no other reason than to keep this no points bull gak from poisoning 40k further. I mean we already have to suffer with your awful magic system. Now we'll more than likely inherit your lawless points system for 8th. Smh.
They really just needed to stop releasing new things for Fantasy altogether, like never say anything to anyone, keep making what they already make, but just never update it again and see if anyone ever noticed. Instead we get this and it will sell to morons and then they'll be all like "Oh well I guess the fantasy guys liked the pamphlet of rules and no points. So let's burn our other property to the ground as well."
Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.
Sales continue to tank.
Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).
Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.
Realize old players are majority.
Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.
Sales continue to tank.
Throw in the towel and REBOOT!
Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.
I get all that.. but does anyone else think Sigmar's holy host turning up to try and save the old world would have been ten times cooler.. or is it just me?
Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.
Sales continue to tank.
Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).
Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.
Realize old players are majority.
Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.
Sales continue to tank.
Throw in the towel and REBOOT!
Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.
Why the hell not?? What is there to lose?
"We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche."
Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.
Sales continue to tank.
Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).
Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.
Realize old players are majority.
Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.
Sales continue to tank.
Throw in the towel and REBOOT!
Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.
Why the hell not?? What is there to lose?
Sometimes just letting something die is the honorable thing to do. Especially when you're the company that stabbed it in the neck in the first place.
There was enough world shattering events and promotions BEFORE they actually shattered the world...
How many times can Chaos invade the Empire?
At some point they have to win right?
I think that was the static problem.
How many fresh ideas over the same old rehash can you do on the same world?
How many new armies can you release to further SEGMENT an already dwindling market? You sell 14 armies? So at MOST you sell 7% of each one. What a waste!
All that energy for 7% of a product line that MAYBE accounts for 20% of your total sales???
I wonder how long the sales slouch has been going on for? When was the tipping point? I've been playing Warhammer since 5th edition, and I definitely remember the high point being 6th/start of 7th. For me, the game started to break down with some of those army books released in late 7th. Was that the turning point, or was it 8th?
I'd really like to know.
So much going on in the world right now, and yet this is the story I'm apparently following most avidly. Go figure.
That's the oddest thing. They could have gone through the End Times series but stop short of blowing the planet up.
Set the new game in the shattered remains but keep things recognizable from a lore perspective. No sense in tossing it aside (Considering the court case ruled that people can make add-ons etc referencing whatever GW calls their stuff)
That way Total War would actually reference your product. You could have the game follow the same story without it being a massive overhaul when they hit the End Times events.
As is, It will be a massive marketing fail as it's almost unrecognizable to the computer gamer.
so when they list the factions for order.... Is my existing empire army now these "red slayer mercenaries", who no one trusts and are greey mercenaries who fight for gold?
like..... That kinda realy pisses me off. I like the empire because their best stories was about how a few little humans could stand up to the horrors of the old world. The Knightly orders well bad ass, were still normal humans. They worked hard to be awsome.
But the sigmariens are super humans who have had everything given to them, and now they are the pillars of what humans should look up to?
Wasn't the whole point of sigmar's story that was he was a normal human that achieved great things and became immortal? Sigmar was likeable because he EARNED all that he got. But these storm-evers were just made awsome?
Da Boss wrote: I wonder how long the sales slouch has been going on for? When was the tipping point? I've been playing Warhammer since 5th edition, and I definitely remember the high point being 6th/start of 7th. For me, the game started to break down with some of those army books released in late 7th. Was that the turning point, or was it 8th?
I'd really like to know.
So much going on in the world right now, and yet this is the story I'm apparently following most avidly. Go figure.
So without disclosing any personal info, Warhammer was considered in trouble as far back as early 2000's.
6th was a GREAT version IMHO.
Designed for tournament play. Balanced. Maybe a little TOO tough on heroes, but still good.
7th was a rehash.
Never played 8th.
I think they made a GREAT effort trying to maintain, but then pricing became part of the attempt at a solution.
Then the crazy over the top $100 models.
But ultimately people weren't spending the TIME to build an army.
I still like the Old World, and I still enjoy 8th edition....could use a couple of minor tweaks...like nerfing Steadfast a little.
But the army books (for the most part) are balanced with one another. I'm hoping that we can keep a 'living edition' and community alive because from what I've seen so far, this new game...is not for me.
I hope I'll still be allowed to play 8th in store, though seeing as they no longer sell the rules, it'll probably be treated as a specialist game, so Tuesday nights only...
Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.
Sales continue to tank.
Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).
Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.
Realize old players are majority.
Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.
Sales continue to tank.
Throw in the towel and REBOOT!
Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.
Why the hell not?? What is there to lose?
"We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche."
Exactly.
The most telling phrase in RacerX's lengthy missive is "roll the dice."
No company should be embarking on a project like this by "rolling the dice." They should have a clear idea who they're selling to, why the old product wasn't working,and they should know what the people that aren't buying are looking for.
They should then be alloying that with what is practical and economical from a production point of view and aiming to get as close as possible as they can't to that ideal.
The fact GW have no idea about any of the things I've italicised is the key to the whole issue, that and they appear to have decided that the customers they have aren't the customers they want, and the customers they want aren't is interested as GW thinks.
Da Boss wrote: I wonder how long the sales slouch has been going on for? When was the tipping point? I've been playing Warhammer since 5th edition, and I definitely remember the high point being 6th/start of 7th. For me, the game started to break down with some of those army books released in late 7th. Was that the turning point, or was it 8th?
I'd really like to know.
So much going on in the world right now, and yet this is the story I'm apparently following most avidly. Go figure.
So without disclosing any personal info, Warhammer was considered in trouble as far back as early 2000's.
6th was a GREAT version IMHO.
Designed for tournament play. Balanced. Maybe a little TOO tough on heroes, but still good.
7th was a rehash.
Never played 8th.
I think they made a GREAT effort trying to maintain, but then pricing became part of the attempt at a solution.
Then the crazy over the top $100 models.
But ultimately people weren't spending the TIME to build an army.
So here we are.
I think if the game was in that much trouble as far back as 15 years ago they wouldn't have released new factions such as Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms in favour of cutting down on the number of supported armies and costs. The problems with Warhammer became terminal with 8th edition. It's simple logic: if you are trying to attract new gamers don't insist on a game system that requires hundreds of models while also raising the model costs to obscene levels.
From the fluff perspective I don't think it can be said that the Chaos invading Empire angle was boring but more a case that GW wanted to just leave things hanging in a limbo for most factions. The campaigns that were run in the early 2000s showed a lack of imagination too: Albion, Storm of Chaos etc led to no discernible change in the fluff once they were wrapped up at the time. I think this is why there was so much excitement when the End Times series began because it seemed GW was finally going to move the timeline and story on in interesting ways. Unfortunately they then blew the world up...
6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.
Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.
Sales continue to tank.
Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).
Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.
Realize old players are majority.
Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.
Sales continue to tank.
Throw in the towel and REBOOT!
Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.
Why the hell not?? What is there to lose?
When all the while, what they needed to fix was the rules. What is there to lose? Warhammer fantasy, in any incarnation.
So, just to help me out here, what is the known fluff behind these guys and the "New World" What happened to the previous one, did it literally blow up ?
Sorry if I'm making you repeat yourselves I've missed a good oh 100 pages of this
I don't have as much of a problem with GW trying to develop a universe that offers more "dark edges of the map," via things like multiple dimensions, rough borders, etc. etc.
What really kills it for me is them trying to take their previous armies and pretend their something different, that they created the ORRUKS and SARAPHON from scratch. This, I feel, is representative of the problems with GW's approach to reinvigorating the game.
That, and the game itself seems to have a number of issues, coupled even worse so with there not being points in this new edition.
I finally agree with GW about switching their name to Warhammer- it makes since because they really don't make any games anymore (no, I don't think 40k is safe either).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wolf wrote: So, just to help me out here, what is the known fluff behind these guys and the "New World" What happened to the previous one, did it literally blow up ?
Sorry if I'm making you repeat yourselves I've missed a good oh 100 pages of this
mikhaila wrote: 6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.
I remember starting ogres in 6th, and gave up because they just couldn't compete against my friend's tomb kings. Must take a tyrant before you can take a slaughtermaster. Upgrades rediculously expensive for the basic units. MSU required. Gnoblars needed babysitting or else were subject to fear. The game had problems even back then, even if it was selling at a 'highpoint'. Fix the rules ffs.
Lockark wrote: so when they list the factions for order.... Is my existing empire army now these "red slayer mercenaries", who no one trusts and are greey mercenaries who fight for gold?
No, as far as I can see, your existing empire army no longer exists.
You're being given rules to keep using those miniatures, but they are not actually a 'real' part of the game, just a bone being thrown to people with existing miniatures collections.
Oh.. I see... That's very um, whats the word? Creative ?
Seriously though that is a terrible way to end the storyline, I would have like to think they could have come up with something better than, "Chaos get mad and blow up the world, Trolololol"
And so far the game rules havent looked all that impressive or interesting, all I want are pretty models hence why I will get the White Dwarf so I can have a good paint up of one !
A collosal, terrible, flaming, buring, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spaying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
Think that hits it dead on.
I feel sorry for the guys I know who play and enjoy 8th edition. Yes, of course they will still be able to do this, but for those who rely on PUGs and tournaments for play it will become increasingly difficult.
I can't understand why this game (if you can call it that) hasn't just been released alongside the true WHFB.
mikhaila wrote: 6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.
8th is likely the best edition in terms of gameplay. Other than some stumbles with early books (TK and OnG) and a few uninspired later books (Dwarfs and Lizardmen), all of the 8th edition books are fantastic. The edition was more balanced than any ever was, and the rules led to complex and compelling gameplay.
From a financial perspective though, I can see clearly why it wouldn't work out. Even though the model count bloat that plagued the early edition was tempered dramatically as the meta shifted away from massed infantry, the game simply wasn't functional at the level of play that most beginners would buy in at. Starter boxes came with essentially unusable units, either in terms of size or because they included units that were substantially garbage. For most new players, the advice we gave them was frequently "you need to buy two starter sets, a couple characters, and a couple monsters. That will give you something almost playable." Not really an easy way to get people into the game.
And us veterans? We only spend money when either a) something new comes out for our army, which happens maybe once every 5 years, or b) when we decide to start an entirely new army. But how many times could we be relied upon to do that? Not to mention that, more often than not, people were going over to 3rd party miniatures for the bulk of those models - either because of price or quality (mantic zombies or wargames factory skeletons come to mind...both are cheaper, and better models than the aging GW sculpts. $20 for 30 WGF skeletons, or $30 for 10 GW ones? And it's not as if the GW ones are even objectively better looking models).
I think Age of Sigmar is meant to fix a lot of that, and I think there was a lot of potential there to do so. We will have to wait for the rules to come out on Saturday, but...from what I've seen I'm just really not sure what the hell this game system is meant to do? It doesn't seem like a playable game right now, and unless something is missing I don't know what we're supposed to do with it.
Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.
Sales continue to tank.
Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).
Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.
Realize old players are majority.
Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.
Sales continue to tank.
Throw in the towel and REBOOT!
Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.
Why the hell not?? What is there to lose?
When all the while, what they needed to fix was the rules. What is there to lose? Warhammer fantasy, in any incarnation.
This. Why not leave the old world and just streamline the ruleset, change faction names to pseudo German ones and stay cool?
fething sigmarines I guess.
Maybe they will backpedal from the no going back to old world bs though, actualy if they dont for Total War release then it's a sign that nothing can save them from their own stupidity
mikhaila wrote: 6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.
I remember starting ogres in 6th, and gave up because they just couldn't compete against my friend's tomb kings. Must take a tyrant before you can take a slaughtermaster. Upgrades rediculously expensive for the basic units. MSU required. Gnoblars needed babysitting or else were subject to fear. The game had problems even back then, even if it was selling at a 'highpoint'. Fix the rules ffs.
And then the next army book fixed all that and suddenly my Ogres i played and lost with were crushing folks. cyclical.
To all this "just change the rules" malarkey. No. From GW's point of view, that never was the problem. GW don't sell to veteran wargamers who care about stuff like that, they sell to kids and impulse buyers and WHFB, with its high start up cost, large units and lack of big spaceships and robots, did not fit the bill. They tried covering the latter point with End Times and that obviously hasn't worked, so they're revamping the game to something that will attract those people: easy to get to grips with rules, skirmish style, low model count (and admittedly really nice models) etc. Fixing the rules may have made veteran gamers happy, but it wasn't going to get Little Timmy to pick up the starter set.
What annoys me is that GW seem to be incapable of ticking both boxes. Perhaps it's too much to ask, but surely GW could've done something different. Why not start a separate skirmish game and leave WHFB alone (even if they had to make most of the range mail order only to save shelf space and/or scrapped unpopular kits). You still get a few sales from WHFB, plus all the ones from the new skirmish game, which would attract people who enjoy playing WHFB as well, rather than putting them off. And again, even with a move such as they're doing now, they could have at least made the rules (or an advanced version of the rules) a little more catered to old WHFB players and/or those who enjoy their wargames for the tactical challenge.
From a business point of view, good rules should not be GW's main concern, but it would be nice if they gave it a little thought, rather than scribbling down four pages of simplistic nonsense overnight.
mikhaila wrote: 6th/7th I think was the highpoint. Sold a lot of it in those years. Frankly, the problems started in 8th, and were not helped by the price rises from GW, and their abandonment of the community.
I remember starting ogres in 6th, and gave up because they just couldn't compete against my friend's tomb kings. Must take a tyrant before you can take a slaughtermaster. Upgrades rediculously expensive for the basic units. MSU required. Gnoblars needed babysitting or else were subject to fear. The game had problems even back then, even if it was selling at a 'highpoint'. Fix the rules ffs.
And then the next army book fixed all that and suddenly my Ogres i played and lost with were crushing folks. cyclical.
Cyclical = sucks.
Either way, someone's not having fun. How about both sides have an equal chance?
The Shadow wrote: To all this "just change the rules" malarkey. No. From GW's point of view, that never was the problem. GW don't sell to veteran wargamers who care about stuff like that, they sell to kids and impulse buyers and WHFB, with its high start up cost, large units and lack of big spaceships and robots, did not fit the bill. They tried covering the latter point with End Times and that obviously hasn't worked, so they're revamping the game to something that will attract those people: easy to get to grips with rules, skirmish style, low model count (and admittedly really nice models) etc. Fixing the rules may have made veteran gamers happy, but it wasn't going to get Little Timmy to pick up the starter set.
What annoys me is that GW seem to be incapable of ticking both boxes. Perhaps it's too much to ask, but surely GW could've done something different. Why not start a separate skirmish game and leave WHFB alone (even if they had to make most of the range mail order only to save shelf space and/or scrapped unpopular kits). You still get a few sales from WHFB, plus all the ones from the new skirmish game, which would attract people who enjoy playing WHFB as well, rather than putting them off. And again, even with a move such as they're doing now, they could have at least made the rules (or an advanced version of the rules) a little more catered to old WHFB players and/or those who enjoy their wargames for the tactical challenge.
From a business point of view, good rules should not be GW's main concern, but it would be nice if they gave it a little thought, rather than scribbling down four pages of simplistic nonsense overnight.
For some reason GW of the last 10-15 years just has no idea how to properly market and sell their product they are a company full of halflings standing on the shoulders of ogres and never fully grasped that while the veterans might not buy as much as new players the only reason new players had a community to play with was because of the veterans. they are essential to building a community of players and showing new people the ropes. and it was such a huge asset for them that they were never able to use effectively, I mean just look at how many other games are out there struggling to gain a foothold in a very niche market where GW had dominance for years because it was the game with the largest community, it was always easy to go into a FLGS on any given weekend and find a game of warhammer, and that is why most people were able to justify spending countless hours and small fortunes on miniatures i know i was going to be able to use them. thats all gone now, at least in regards to WHFB or AoS.
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote: And us veterans? We only spend money when either a) something new comes out for our army, which happens maybe once every 5 years, or b) when we decide to start an entirely new army. But how many times could we be relied upon to do that?
Over and over again, in a lot of cases.
I know a number of tournament gamers who start a new army for each year's tournament circuit. I know of a few others who will happily start a new army for each individual tournament. And then you have the vets like me, with 9 different 40K armies (and at least 3 or 4 more still in waiting to be assembled), 2 different WHFB armies, 5 Necromunda gangs, a gaggle of Inquisitor miniatures, and a whole slew of models bought just because I liked them.
Sure, left to their own devices, a lot of vets buy one army and play until they get bored. But if GW provide sufficient reason to keep buying, a lot of us will.
Those reasons have been dwindling, recently, precisely because GW shifted their focus away from crafting playable games.
Xyxox wrote: Is anybody else having flashbacks to Rackham and the debacle of Confrontation when they moved to Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok?
Yup.
GW definitely has a bit larger playerbase to start with, of course, larger exposure, and their own stores. I don't think AoS will be as massive a failure as C:AoR was, mainly because like a lot of major brands, GW has a subsection of folks who will buy anything they make, no matter how badly it sucks, no matter how expensive it gets. Those folks may not even bother being in places like this, where they are exposed to so much negativity.
From reading stuff here and elsewhere, there seems to be an idea that GW is going 'digital' with future releases when it comes to data. "No more books.".... well, because they might start selling PDFs from their own website, making 100% profit on the 'warscrolls' that don't come with the miniatures they sell.
See those cool 'Formations'... I mean, "Battalions" for the Celestial whatzzits, and the Chaos dudes? Perhaps those will come out via GW's website-only, for a modest fee ($4.99). So instead of buying army books - you buy 'chunks' for the faction(s) of your choosing, being nickle-and-dimed instead of popping out $50 for a book? This method also removes stores as 'middlemen' to whom GW sells stuff wholesale. Plus, the cost to produce drops dramatically when they no longer have to print and ship tons of paper/hardback books.
If there's one thing I have faith in GW about, it's that they -will- find some way to get their money out of you, the customer. The whole 'Free Warscrolls!" and 'Free Rules!" sounds great... but there's -gonna- be a catch. Somehow, someway. We just may not see it yet.
I look away for a few years, come back and it's all gone to .
This feels like they are just grasping at all the things they think made 40k popular in the first place and trying to throw it in a fantasy-shaped blender. But... they really don't get why 40k ended up becoming a thing, so it all just seems like a bunch of insincere bull- .
And in the process we lose one of the most unique fantasy settings ever devised because it was hard to copyright.
This could have been a great way to re-invigorate WHFB and fix the buy-in factors that were killing it in the face of a wealth of easier to get in to games. Instead we get Sig-mahreens, Bloodsecrators, and... *ugh*
I thought the days of GW making me angry were over. But they just managed a new entry in the book of grudges.
I can't imagine a more bone-headed or tone-deaf move they could have made. I really should have just kept ignoring them.
I think I just threw up. A lot.
Now they're blatantly ripping off chapters, only they have these vague and meaningless histories in a poor attempt to give them a rich history and depth.
"Their reforging took place as the broken world span under a magical gloom."
What the heck is that supposed to mean? How is someone supposed to latch onto that and say "Yeah! I can totally relate to that. That's awesome!"
Edit. I like how the grey ones sound kind of like Grey Knights.
I think I just threw up. A lot.
Now they're blatantly ripping off chapters, only they have these vague and meaningless histories in a poor attempt to give them a rich history and depth.
"Their reforging took place as the broken world span under a magical gloom."
What the heck is that supposed to mean? How is someone supposed to latch onto that and say "Yeah! I can totally relate to that. That's awesome!"
Edit. I like how the grey ones sound kind of like Grey Knights.
I don't mind them having different color schemes and chapter names so much. However those little descriptions are just awful to read...not inspiring at all.
I think I just threw up. A lot.
Now they're blatantly ripping off chapters, only they have these vague and meaningless histories in a poor attempt to give them a rich history and depth.
"Their reforging took place as the broken world span under a magical gloom."
What the heck is that supposed to mean? How is someone supposed to latch onto that and say "Yeah! I can totally relate to that. That's awesome!"
Edit. I like how the grey ones sound kind of like Grey Knights.
Oh yeah, because different sub-factions within an army is sooooo totally specific to Space Marines, and that hasn't been done in Fantasy EVER before.... certainly not in skaven, high elves, empire, etc.....
Seriously though, this is more of a pattern of Games Workshop as a whole rather than a cut and paste of "da spess mehreens."
And Fantasy isn't supposed to wholly relatable. Just look at most archetypal fantasy stories. You'll find plenty that's unrelatable. Like dragons. How the feth do you relate to dragons?
And the knights-being immune to spells thing is old. Like really old. Seriously.
Not to pick on you mate, but you sound new, and posteriorly pained. Just because you don't like it, or can't wrap your head around the idea, doesn't mean its bad. It means it's not for you.
I don't like apple pie. You don't see my screaming about how nasty it is and how it's a copy of blueberry pie. Voicing your opinion is one thing however, and i respect that you dislike the direction GW has gone with their Stormcast Eternals.
Cmon now! How is that not straight from a space marine codex FFS. That really does rub me the wrong way - gah.
You act like the Empire Army Books of the past didn't have Hearldry for the different knight factions and color schemes for the different provinces of the empire. Stop thinking everything is automatically related to space marines. People only see what they want to see.
Cmon now! How is that not straight from a space marine codex FFS. That really does rub me the wrong way - gah.
You act like the Empire Army Books of the past didn't have Hearldry for the different knight factions and color schemes for the different provinces of the empire. Stop thinking everything is automatically related to space marines. People only see what they want to see.
I don't recall any State Troops that were forged under a magical gloom. Maybe the Stirlanders?
Release really nice starter set (Dwarf and Goblins)
Two COMPLETE (albiet smallish) armies of high quality.
A true stand-alone product.
Sales continue to tank.
Try again!
Release even NICER Starter set (Elves and Skaven).
Sales continue to tank.
No traction and community drying up.
Realize old players are majority.
Release tons of Really LARGE and NICE and expensive models.
Make BIG SCARY Nuclear Weapons in Warhammer to attract power hungry younger gamers who just want to win.
Sales continue to tank.
Throw in the towel and REBOOT!
Die a slow death, or roll the dice and take it into an entirely NEW direction and just MAYBE save the brand.
Why the hell not?? What is there to lose?
Except that they must have made the decision to destroy the Old World before they started the End Times, as the studio has a 2-year lead time from concept, so they didn't get a read on whether the big/large models and storyline advances worked (as in 'sold well') before they pulled the plug.
I enjoyed the End Times up until Archaon. I liked that the storyline was advancing, characters were being killed, new characters created (unfortunately most did not get models), but I genuinely didn't expect them to destroy the Old World and go with the weird Realms thing, even when rumours were pointing towards a new fantasy Space Marines army being introduced. Still very skeptical like a lot of vets.
Most armies have factions and whatnot, but let's not be naive people. These are Fantasy Space Marines, and Stormhosts are Fantasy Space Marine Chapters.
I think I just threw up. A lot.
Now they're blatantly ripping off chapters, only they have these vague and meaningless histories in a poor attempt to give them a rich history and depth.
"Their reforging took place as the broken world span under a magical gloom."
What the heck is that supposed to mean? How is someone supposed to latch onto that and say "Yeah! I can totally relate to that. That's awesome!"
Edit. I like how the grey ones sound kind of like Grey Knights.
Oh yeah, because different sub-factions within an army is sooooo totally specific to Space Marines, and that hasn't been done in Fantasy EVER before.... certainly not in skaven, high elves, empire, etc.....
Seriously though, this is more of a pattern of Games Workshop as a whole rather than a cut and paste of "da spess mehreens."
And Fantasy isn't supposed to wholly relatable. Just look at most archetypal fantasy stories. You'll find plenty that's unrelatable. Like dragons. How the feth do you relate to dragons?
And the knights-being immune to spells thing is old. Like really old. Seriously.
Not to pick on you mate, but you sound new, and posteriorly pained. Just because you don't like it, or can't wrap your head around the idea, doesn't mean its bad. It means it's not for you.
I don't like apple pie. You don't see my screaming about how nasty it is and how it's a copy of blueberry pie. Voicing your opinion is one thing however, and i respect that you dislike the direction GW has gone with their Stormcast Eternals.
New? I'm a 20+ year veteran. This is just one nail in the coffin of "Space Marines in faaaaaaantasy!!!"
By itself, not much. But side by side with the pics of different chapters and you'd see that even the way their colored resembles space marines. (Hint, look at the pauldrons.)
But really, it's those amateurish and vague descriptions of the chapters that really make it painful.
I'm very sad none of these hint at a specific Stormhost that's made purely of White Wolf champions in honor of the (presumably deceased) god Sigmar himself worshiped above others whilst he was still mortal.
the different color schemes look good...
i like it, especially the teal Celestial Vindicators...
of course, i just paint, so as happy as the new minis make me, i feel for you players who have been trying to wrap your heads around the rules for the last few days...
good luck!!!
MLaw wrote: Can the Sigmarites take a Dreadnought and do their Landraiders have special variants?
Well, so far we do know that they have Chaplains, skull-helmet and all!
(This is not a joke)
Somehow I'm surprised that they weren't called Angels of Sigmar or UltraSigmarites or somesuch.
Again.. I'm okay with them.. I'll probably use them for some RPG stuff or conversions but it really is pure lulz that they made fantasy Space Marines and didn't even try to hide it a little. I also think it's kinda sad that we're all hanging out here finding little things to flip out over
"Their Reforging took place as the Broken World spun under a magical gloom."
What?
I don't get the problem with this. Clearly, as the gloaming of the moon stole betwixt the blengent parralax, Sigmar smote asunder the revenant asturmine with a pungent manner, and amongst the reforged beans of the manifold Destinomotron the pools of novistation took hold.
"Their Reforging took place as the Broken World spun under a magical gloom."
What?
I don't get the problem with this. Clearly, as the gloaming of the moon stole betwixt the blengent parralax, Sigmar smote asunder the revenant asturmine with a pungent manner, and amongst the reforged beans of the manifold Destinomotron the pools of novistation took hold.
I can imagine Tom Kirby explaining this concept to the board.
MLaw wrote: Can the Sigmarites take a Dreadnought and do their Landraiders have special variants?
Well, so far we do know that they have Chaplains, skull-helmet and all!
(This is not a joke)
Somehow I'm surprised that they weren't called Angels of Sigmar or UltraSigmarites or somesuch.
Again.. I'm okay with them.. I'll probably use them for some RPG stuff or conversions but it really is pure lulz that they made fantasy Space Marines and didn't even try to hide it a little. I also think it's kinda sad that we're all hanging out here finding little things to flip out over
Yeah, as it's been said before, it's like watching an insane car crash, going on for multiple days and getting worse and worse every moment!
Neronoxx wrote: And Fantasy isn't supposed to wholly relatable. Just look at most archetypal fantasy stories. You'll find plenty that's unrelatable. Like dragons. How the feth do you relate to dragons?
Like this. See? A dragon with personality. With character.
Neronoxx wrote: And Fantasy isn't supposed to wholly relatable. Just look at most archetypal fantasy stories. You'll find plenty that's unrelatable. Like dragons. How the feth do you relate to dragons?
Like this. See? A dragon with personality. With character.
I was thinking more along the lines of a certain dragon voiced by Sir Sean Connery.
that was awesome, Accolade...
and yet, somehow, everybody went for it...
i wonder how many studio guys quit their jobs over this???
did everyone just say, "yes, sir, you are awesome, sir....grumblegrumblegrumble...", or did someone flip a table and walk out, pulling at their hair mumbling something about, "Bloodsecrators??? really???"...
I think I just threw up. A lot.
Now they're blatantly ripping off chapters, only they have these vague and meaningless histories in a poor attempt to give them a rich history and depth.
"Their reforging took place as the broken world span under a magical gloom."
What the heck is that supposed to mean? How is someone supposed to latch onto that and say "Yeah! I can totally relate to that. That's awesome!"
Edit. I like how the grey ones sound kind of like Grey Knights.
Oh yeah, because different sub-factions within an army is sooooo totally specific to Space Marines, and that hasn't been done in Fantasy EVER before.... certainly not in skaven, high elves, empire, etc.....
Seriously though, this is more of a pattern of Games Workshop as a whole rather than a cut and paste of "da spess mehreens."
And Fantasy isn't supposed to wholly relatable. Just look at most archetypal fantasy stories. You'll find plenty that's unrelatable. Like dragons. How the feth do you relate to dragons?
And the knights-being immune to spells thing is old. Like really old. Seriously.
Not to pick on you mate, but you sound new, and posteriorly pained. Just because you don't like it, or can't wrap your head around the idea, doesn't mean its bad. It means it's not for you.
I don't like apple pie. You don't see my screaming about how nasty it is and how it's a copy of blueberry pie. Voicing your opinion is one thing however, and i respect that you dislike the direction GW has gone with their Stormcast Eternals.
The grey (hallowed) knights have the same fething properties as the Grey Knights. That has to be an intentional reference (which is fine, usually like those, they are just being a little blatant about it).We haven't seen everything yet and it could still be an interesting setting, but pretending the stormcast eternals are not a massive space marine copy is disingenuous.
I do agree with you that overall it's more of a gw thing (i mean all the books have this section now), and i think it sounds more ridiculous in this instance because we don't have the proper context. We basically know very little of the overall fluff, maybe those blurbs would be more evocative if we did.
Now that most of the stuffs leaked I think I might as well put in my opinion. I'm of 2 minds with this new world, as my Skaven arent mentioned too much and hordes haven't been mentioned too much, but I'm cautiously optimistic. The fact that the rules are free is good for me, seeing as I started fantasy with the Thanquol release, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the new system works. However, I'm not too happy to see the Skaven made into just another part of chaos, because now they're little more than teched out beastmen in rat form. The fact that I won't have to rebase my old army is also good, because I have around 100 clanrats and 30 stormvermin just in core.
jah-joshua wrote: that was awesome, Accolade...
and yet, somehow, everybody went for it...
i wonder how many studio guys quit their jobs over this???
did everyone just say, "yes, sir, you are awesome, sir....grumblegrumblegrumble...", or did someone flip a table and walk out, pulling at their hair mumbling something about, "Bloodsecrators??? really???"...
inquiring minds want to know...
cheers
jah
There's been rumors that there has been significant dissent over this in GW. I can imagine a lot of designers would be unhappy that they're ditching all of the fluff for some copyright protection. I definitely feel for any of the designers still loyal to the universe having to deal with this.
I don't necessary hate the Sigmarines (although I can't understand people pretending that's not what they are), I think the models are decent, and I like the idea of a simplified ruleset that is much cheaper. But everything else feels completely awful.
On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.
There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.
Platuan4th wrote: I'm very sad none of these hint at a specific Stormhost that's made purely of White Wolf champions in honor of the (presumably deceased) god Sigmar himself worshiped above others whilst he was still mortal.
That would have been cool. Hopefully they will do some of that when they re-introduce the older models.
insaniak wrote: On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.
There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.
From my own opinion, what I enjoyed about Fantasy was that there wasn't this ultimate good faction.
From a fluff perspective, it made the world feel much more desperate, as the worst of the worst stuff came from the forces of Chaos. Good Elves exist, but they're mainly about themselves.
From a game perspective, it feels like 80% of WH-AOS games will consist of Sigmarites vs. some other faction (probably again Sigmarites). It's one of my biggest issues with 40k and was nice that Fantasy was different in that regard.
Again, I don't really hate Sigmarines or the models, I just wish they could have explored a different concept rather than bumping things into their other game. Well, at this point, GW might as well re-introduce Squats!
i haven't really commented on that aspect yet, Accolade, but i am very much a purist when it comes to models...
i will not try to change the minds of people who say that this is GW trying to port a Space Marine-like faction into Fantasy, but to me these models do not look like Space Marines...
there is enough difference in the sculpts, that they look like Fantasy models to my eye...
when people use the WFB Chaos warriors for 40k conversions, it looks really strange to my eye, because the segmented leg armour doesn't match the futuristic look of the Marine armor...
the lack of little access panels, rounded toe-caps, and little power cables really stand-out...
when someone takes the awesome Khorne Lord on Jugger, and slaps a Chaos Marine backpack on it, it still looks like a fantasy model to me...
for true-scale, when someone uses Termis legs, but doesn't fill in the recessed areas on the legs, it doesn't look like a true-scale Marine to me, but a strange mash-up...
yet the flat panels on the Tartarus Termies port over perfectly into a true-scale power armor...
so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...
i certainly would never paint them as Marines, because the armor is all wrong...
i would happily paint them as the factions they are intended to represent though...
the armor is pretty cool, in my opinion...
i like the bulk, especially as they are basically Avatars of Sigmar...
jah-joshua wrote: i haven't really commented on that aspect yet, Accolade, but i am very much a purist when it comes to models...
i will not try to change the minds of people who say that this is GW trying to port a Space Marine-like faction into Fantasy, but to me these models do not look like Space Marines...
there is enough difference in the sculpts, that they look like Fantasy models to my eye...
when people use the WFB Chaos warriors for 40k conversions, it looks really strange to my eye, because the segmented leg armour doesn't match the futuristic look of the Marine armor...
the lack of little access panels, rounded toe-caps, and little power cables really stand-out...
when someone takes the awesome Khorne Lord on Jugger, and slaps a Chaos Marine backpack on it, it still looks like a fantasy model to me...
for true-scale, when someone uses Termis legs, but doesn't fill in the recessed areas on the legs, it doesn't look like a true-scale Marine to me, but a strange mash-up...
yet the flat panels on the Tartarus Termies port over perfectly into a true-scale power armor...
so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...
i certainly would never paint them as Marines, because the armor is all wrong...
i would happily paint them as the factions they are intended to represent though...
the armor is pretty cool, in my opinion...
i like the bulk, especially as they are basically Avatars of Sigmar...
cheers
jah
I agree with you 100%, sadly though, we're on Dakkadakka, where the majority of rumormongers and forum trolls dwell and feast upon any negativity that they can get.
Call me wishful, but I am with the other camp of retailers on this one...
There is going to be a balanced way to play this game.
They do not look like Space Marines.
There is still going to be a form of Warhammer Fantasy battles 9th coming.
I will wait until the release to make any further assumptions.
Personally, I think the Sigmarines look stupid. But then again, a lot of the early 40k lore was pretty dumb too.
If I said that GW would release free rules covering all of the models in their game system, in addition to a simplified rule set, I would have been laughed off this forum. Guess who's had the last laugh?
At least the rules are a free download! Let's see what kind of broken, easily exploitable mess of a game GW cranks out!
insaniak wrote: On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.
There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.
They already had armoured knights with rich heraldry and history in WHFB though. Those were the space marines translated in to fantasy terms (well vice versa in actuality, space marines were an attempt to ape the knightly aesthetics in a sci-fi setting).
But that isn't what bugged me about Sigmahreens. I admit that in another reality the angelic warhost of Sigmar would be bad ass. Hell even the whole celestial war setup could be cool.
But the Sigmahreens are just so hackneyed in their execution. They stink of being the minimum amount of effort to evoke the feeling of space marines. They don't even bother changing the insignia, let alone at least changing the colour-scheme of the heraldry on any of them (only the !Grey Knights change the hammer's colour itself). And the little background blurbs are the worst kind of throwaway one-shot nonsense background references while also directly copying various current space marine chapters.
At this point in the company's life cycle it just feels like a blatant, artless cash-in and nothing more.
I repeat, this idea could have been fantastic. An armoured host of angelic beings descending from the heavens in the old world's hour of need to beat back the darkness. That is a cool image to evoke while also having thematic ties to 40k's own Angels of Death. But GW just kind of went with the whole thing in the laziest possible way and it is hard not to see it as a tone-deaf money-grab.
Space Marines had a good long time to build up their aesthetics, their history, and their feel. Sigmahreens feel like cheap knock-offs that don't seem to understand why folks actually like space marines.
But you are right, there is so much more to complain about here. But the Sigmahreens are also a really good visual shorthand for just how bad this whole thing is shaping up to be. This is literally what everyone who loved WHFB never wanted, what everyone said GW would never stoop to. This is GW40k-ifying WHFB instead of doing actual market research and the inward searching required to find out why WHFB was actually failing in the first place.
This whole thing is terrible, and the Sigmahreens are the most immediately visible and deeply visceral manifestation of that terribleness.
so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...
They're certainly not identical to Marines, but the design aesthetic is similar in enough ways to see them as a fantasy version of Space Marines, particularly given the 'more than human' fluff backing them up.
insaniak wrote:I don't get the problem with this. Clearly, as the gloaming of the moon stole betwixt the blengent parralax, Sigmar smote asunder the revenant asturmine with a pungent manner, and amongst the reforged beans of the manifold Destinomotron the pools of novistation took hold.
laughed so loud I woke my dog up.
insaniak wrote:On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.
There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.
For a LONG time GW has been trying (somewhat weakly, admittedly) to separate fantasy and 40k. The introduction of the Tau, as much as I dislike them, was a great step in that direction. The tau really have no WHFB analogue. The squatting of the ... well, squats. The Tyranids. Even Oldcrons, metallic robotic servants of the C'Tan.
Then we got Newcrons, literal Tomb Kings in space, complete with warring Tomb Lords and such. Okay, they wanted to change the fluff up, whatever, Necron fluff always kinda felt shoe-horned in everywhere anyway...
But this? One of the best parts of WHFB is that you didn't have that shining beacon faction. Even the "good" factions had their flaws. The Empire wasn't exactly a shining beacon, and even the Holier Than Most Brettonians had plenty of "we give 0 craps about peasants" to offset having a literal faith shield.
I mean, this is just blatant. I'm convinced that anyone that "can't see it" is being purposefully obtuse. You have a bunch of dudes, reforged by a god-like man into elite warriors clad in basically magic armor from head to toe. They wield thunder lightning hammers, have chaptershosts that are complete thematic rips of Space Marine chapters.
Let me be clear: I don't care that they've done it. It's their IPs, they're welcome to rip their own stuff. That doesn't make it somehow not ridiculous.
insaniak wrote: I don't get the problem with this. Clearly, as the gloaming of the moon stole betwixt the blengent parralax, Sigmar smote asunder the revenant asturmine with a pungent manner, and amongst the reforged beans of the manifold Destinomotron the pools of novistation took hold.
Well, when you put it that way it makes total sense. How did I miss that?
insaniak wrote:I don't get the problem with this. Clearly, as the gloaming of the moon stole betwixt the blengent parralax, Sigmar smote asunder the revenant asturmine with a pungent manner, and amongst the reforged beans of the manifold Destinomotron the pools of novistation took hold.
laughed so loud I woke my dog up.
insaniak wrote:On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.
There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.
For a LONG time GW has been trying (somewhat weakly, admittedly) to separate fantasy and 40k. The introduction of the Tau, as much as I dislike them, was a great step in that direction. The tau really have no WHFB analogue. The squatting of the ... well, squats. The Tyranids. Even Oldcrons, metallic robotic servants of the C'Tan.
Then we got Newcrons, literal Tomb Kings in space, complete with warring Tomb Lords and such. Okay, they wanted to change the fluff up, whatever, Necron fluff always kinda felt shoe-horned in everywhere anyway...
But this? One of the best parts of WHFB is that you didn't have that shining beacon faction. Even the "good" factions had their flaws. The Empire wasn't exactly a shining beacon, and even the Holier Than Most Brettonians had plenty of "we give 0 craps about peasants" to offset having a literal faith shield.
I mean, this is just blatant. I'm convinced that anyone that "can't see it" is being purposefully obtuse. You have a bunch of dudes, reforged by a god-like man into elite warriors clad in basically magic armor from head to toe. They wield thunder lightning hammers, have chaptershosts that are complete thematic rips of Space Marine chapters.
Let me be clear: I don't care that they've done it. It's their IPs, they're welcome to rip their own stuff. That doesn't make it somehow not ridiculous.
Are you implying that 40k has a pure good factions? o.O
From what I gathered, they all looked pretty bad to me!
No, he was saying that there are two (separate) issues with the Sigmarines - one being that they look like Space Marines, and the other (unrelated to the first) issue being that they add a 'shining light' faction to a setting that has previously been fairly dimly lit in varying shades of grey.
jah-joshua wrote: i haven't really commented on that aspect yet, Accolade, but i am very much a purist when it comes to models...
i will not try to change the minds of people who say that this is GW trying to port a Space Marine-like faction into Fantasy, but to me these models do not look like Space Marines...
there is enough difference in the sculpts, that they look like Fantasy models to my eye...
when people use the WFB Chaos warriors for 40k conversions, it looks really strange to my eye, because the segmented leg armour doesn't match the futuristic look of the Marine armor...
the lack of little access panels, rounded toe-caps, and little power cables really stand-out...
when someone takes the awesome Khorne Lord on Jugger, and slaps a Chaos Marine backpack on it, it still looks like a fantasy model to me...
for true-scale, when someone uses Termis legs, but doesn't fill in the recessed areas on the legs, it doesn't look like a true-scale Marine to me, but a strange mash-up...
yet the flat panels on the Tartarus Termies port over perfectly into a true-scale power armor...
so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...
i certainly would never paint them as Marines, because the armor is all wrong...
i would happily paint them as the factions they are intended to represent though...
the armor is pretty cool, in my opinion...
i like the bulk, especially as they are basically Avatars of Sigmar...
cheers
jah
I agree with you 100%, sadly though, we're on Dakkadakka, where the majority of rumormongers and forum trolls dwell and feast upon any negativity that they can get.
Call me wishful, but I am with the other camp of retailers on this one...
There is going to be a balanced way to play this game.
They do not look like Space Marines.
There is still going to be a form of Warhammer Fantasy battles 9th coming.
I will wait until the release to make any further assumptions.
I fully expect you to be wrong, but sincerely hope you are right.
Sigmarines do look like space marines though. Even if there are tiny differences, there are many visual themes present in both.
Spoiler:
Wider at the bottom megaman-armor boots, though this is admittedly reduced in the calf portions of Sigmarines, the large circular-style knee joint remains.
Large stylized shoulder pads with chapter insignia.
The same vertically aligned iron halo, though the number of points are different.
Segmented breast-plate, with a recessed abdominal section.
Rounded off knuckle to forearm over-plate located on top of gauntlets.
To further point out similarities, you could notice the number of places where they are both unlike traditional plate armor.
Exaggerated neckline.
Non-beaver'd helmet.
Form fitted chest piece, as opposed to ballooned area to cushion bludgeoning impact.
Exaggerated leg portions, as opposed to skinnier and lighter weight dimensions.
Shoulder heraldry, as opposed to shield heraldry.
Purity seals and holy inscription banners.
Spoiler:
Given the above obvious design asthetic, I simply cannot fathom how anyone says they are dissimilar.
so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...
They're certainly not identical to Marines, but the design aesthetic is similar in enough ways to see them as a fantasy version of Space Marines, particularly given the 'more than human' fluff backing them up.
It's more than just "more than human" fluff... The human god emperor's (duh..) first revealed elite warriors festooned with hammer and lightning motifs (just like thunder warriors) saved from a dying world (most space marines are recruited from death worlds) who are given great strength and the finest heavy plate armor (duh...) and who gifted by the emperor with a sort of eternal life to be reborn after dying (geneseed) and who travel the various realms (worlds) through magical gates (warp rifts) guided by the emperor (astronomicon) to do battle with their mortal enemies, heavily armored chaos warriors.
There have been a number of comments that GW did their market research, and they know who/what/when this stuff will appeal to.
Perhaps things have changed significantly in the last few years.
But I doubt it.
There is NO research needed.
The Studio KNOWS what players/collectors want.
Because they ARE players/collectors.
At least that is what it USED to be.
The LAST thing the Studio did was seek opinions elsewhere.
They would not bother doing any sort of modern market research because the CULTURE of the company is NOT WIRED to seek outside opinion.
It is akin to a monastery, cloistered away issuing dictates to the dirty gaming masses.
But I think the peasants have had enough judging by the results of their labor.
Done and dusted.
Predict that GW will be 40K only in 3 years based on this.
RacerX wrote: There is NO research needed.
The Studio KNOWS what players/collectors want.
Because they ARE players/collectors.
You seem to be assuming that the studio guys are the ones making the decisions about what GW releases...
At least that is what it USED to be.
Yes, once upon a time, it probably was.
GW's recent activities however show that these days, the decisions are all being made by the accountants and the legal department. The studio are (I would expect) just making what they're told to make.
so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...
They're certainly not identical to Marines, but the design aesthetic is similar in enough ways to see them as a fantasy version of Space Marines, particularly given the 'more than human' fluff backing them up.
Or take it like it is, a blatant warriors of valhalla ripped from history, with sigmar as odin.
)
It's funny because I was willing to overlook the balance issues and I just about came to terms with the huge humans but the names of the races... I just can't. Sorry 
