Well I've sent a short polite email to GW customer service to see if and when they will update the digital space marine codex. So if/when I get a response I'll let people know.
Squidbot wrote: Was just in town and wandered in to my local GW to say hi. He hadn't even heard of this book.
I popped into mine just now to see if they had it in stock or available to look at. Direct-only, even for them.
That just transalates into a lost sale, I'm afraid. I was erring on the side of 'don't bother' but there was always the chance that flipping through a copy might have tempted me into an impulse buy.
Compel wrote: On the slightly less grim side, it looks like buying Death From The Skies isn't actually necessary for the Codex Blood Angels and Imperial Guard players, as the FAQ's do update their unit entries.
By removing deep strike, scout and amending Skies of Blood.
But previously Blood Angels could scatter D6" less using Descent of Angels when jumping out the back of a Stormraven. Under the FAQ that's been removed. So it's either been taken away completely or is a capability every jump pack marine in the back of a raven can have. To know, you'd need to buy the book.
Compel wrote: On the slightly less grim side, it looks like buying Death From The Skies isn't actually necessary for the Codex Blood Angels and Imperial Guard players, as the FAQ's do update their unit entries.
By removing deep strike, scout and amending Skies of Blood.
But previously Blood Angels could scatter D6" less using Descent of Angels when jumping out the back of a Stormraven. Under the FAQ that's been removed. So it's either been taken away completely or is a capability every jump pack marine in the back of a raven can have. To know, you'd need to buy the book.
Not at all ... DoA is attached to the JP in C:BApg. 62
Compel wrote: On the slightly less grim side, it looks like buying Death From The Skies isn't actually necessary for the Codex Blood Angels and Imperial Guard players, as the FAQ's do update their unit entries.
By removing deep strike, scout and amending Skies of Blood.
But previously Blood Angels could scatter D6" less using Descent of Angels when jumping out the back of a Stormraven. Under the FAQ that's been removed. So it's either been taken away completely or is a capability every jump pack marine in the back of a raven can have. To know, you'd need to buy the book.
Not at all ... DoA is attached to the JP in C:BApg. 62
True, but previously under the Skies of Blood rule it specifically stated that you could use the DoA rule to minimise your scatter. You just know that you're going to come up against somebody who won't make the connection or claim that as it isn't written in the Skies of Fury rule you can't do it. Spending $48 to avoid those situations and also ensure there are no other changes to the rule the FAQ missed is a bit much.
(Although I do see your point that you wouldn't have to buy it)
I suppose I'm also looking at it from an Ork players point of view, as I have the WD with the jet rules in and the previous FAQ. It doesn't say that you can use Fighta Ace on flyers. But I've heard that the digital rules state you can. If that's true and it's written as such in this book, I'd need it for one measly sentence.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Well I've sent a short polite email to GW customer service to see if and when they will update the digital space marine codex. So if/when I get a response I'll let people know.
There is an update available for codex space marine, chaos space marine, and dark angels, I'm downloading them now.
My issue is that over time marine codices tend to creep towards being samey, last edition they finally got away from that with a unique feel and playstyle to all the sm codices. For the first time ever they almost made marines different enough to justify all the many different codexes rather than one or two codex marines with variant lists, so I see this as a massive step I the wrong direction. Additionally, if your going for an in verse justification, then why can't Dante and Seth do orbital strike? They are chapter masters after all.
Having completely unique vehicles just won't make much sense. Having individualised vehicle weapon configurations or squad types makes more sense. I just cant see AD Mech approving space marine chapters hoarding entire STCs for themselves.
And yes, Dante and Seth should have orbital strike.
(And yes, I'd prefer there to be only one huge marine codex.)
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Well I've sent a short polite email to GW customer service to see if and when they will update the digital space marine codex. So if/when I get a response I'll let people know.
There is an update available for codex space marine, chaos space marine, and dark angels, I'm downloading them now.
Tried that earlier and there weren't any changes, I'll give it another go cheers.
Sirius42 wrote: Well this is a screw over to blood angels isn't it. Got a unique unit that only you and gk have? Not anymore you don't. Did this bs go the other way too? I.e. do ba and gk get the storm talon since they had to share the raven?
Bah! You still have exclusive access to the Baal pattern Pred, don't you? Don't worry! I'd kill for one of those. Even if it was just 0-1...
Sirius42 wrote: Well this is a screw over to blood angels isn't it. Got a unique unit that only you and gk have? Not anymore you don't. Did this bs go the other way too? I.e. do ba and gk get the storm talon since they had to share the raven?
Bah! You still have exclusive access to the Baal pattern Pred, don't you? Don't worry! I'd kill for one of those. Even if it was just 0-1...
StormTalons are now Flyer(Hover) according to the BRBFAQ. This is excellent news. Finally the Marine Flyer that looks like a Gunship gets to move like one too rather than that ridiculous stop/start nonsense.
Blood Angels players are butthurt because they lost their Stormraven to Black Templars, but turnabout is fair play as they have had access to the Land Raider Crusader, which is (nearly) proprietary to Black Templars, since it first came out as a metal/plastic model..........
They still have Furioso/Librarian/Death Company Dreads, Baal Predators, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard...I would say they are still unique enough.
Err, I don't think there's much whining about Black Templars getting the Storm Raven.
What people are annoyed about, however, is Codex Space Marines getting the Storm Raven, without even the niceties of the Storm Talon getting reciprocated.
As for the rest of it. Unit Count wise:
Furioso/Librarian/Death Company = Ironclad / Venerable
Baal Predators = Land Speeder Storms
Death Company = Legion of the Damned
Sanguinary Guard = Honour Guard
Honour Guard = Command Squad
????? = Thunderfire Cannons
It really is quite annoying, especially when you take into account people were hoping that Games Workshop had learned this lesson already with the previous Dark Angels codex.
I wonder if at the very least Forgeworld will open up the Storm Eagle to Blood Angels.
Kingsley wrote: Could you please explain how making products that you don't want is "a slap in the face?" If you don't want to buy something, just don't buy it and move on. Why feel insulted?
Because some of us, despite GW's best efforts, still love the hobby and want it to succeed.
Thank you. I needed a new quote for my signature.
On topic: It looks like a really cheap cash-in which had the potential to be so much more. But here's the thing. I probably would've bought it anyway. IF they had offered me the opportunity. But again, they pull this "get it while it's new"-gak and only release in English. My English is just fine, but I prefer my rulebooks to all have the same language. This is just another very stupid business decission bei GW.
Compel wrote: Err, I don't think there's much whining about Black Templars getting the Storm Raven.
What people are annoyed about, however, is Codex Space Marines getting the Storm Raven, without even the niceties of the Storm Talon getting reciprocated.
As for the rest of it. Unit Count wise:
Furioso/Librarian/Death Company = Ironclad / Venerable
Baal Predators = Land Speeder Storms
Death Company = Legion of the Damned
Sanguinary Guard = Honour Guard
Honour Guard = Command Squad
????? = Thunderfire Cannons
It really is quite annoying, especially when you take into account people were hoping that Games Workshop had learned this lesson already with the previous Dark Angels codex.
I wonder if at the very least Forgeworld will open up the Storm Eagle to Blood Angels.
Well, that's disappointing that this wasn't used as an opportunity to fix the problematic flyers in the game. Looks like the meta is going to remain skewed until the guard get a re-do. And with four armies now having access to the Stormraven hopes of that thing getting fixed at any point in 6E are down the drains. Looks like the AV12 flyers will remain power-houses unless you go all-in on air defense. That is a little disheartening, but at least kind of expected, given GW's track record. Oh well.
labmouse42 wrote: Their combos make me laugh.
Buy 1, or buy 2 for twice the price! We will even include this collectors box!
Sadly, GW pricing is kind of a joke.
They defended them on their facebook (back when they had one) as a way for newcomers to get quickly into the game.
Actually, I see many newcomers backing off when they see the price of the combined products. It basically kills impulse shoppers. Dad may be able to let 30€ slip from time to time. 130€? Not so much.
Harriticus wrote: Would be more interested if it included new flyers. Tau and Eldar are still waiting. Saying SoB should get also one is a long lost cause that is not even a realistic option.
After reading the comments, and speaking to a friend that works in a GW store, I'm glad I got out. This release sounds like a total mess. If anybody wants to get off this sinking ship, then I'm pulling alongside in a lifeboat marked Flames of war and Mantic (or any other half decent company).
They don't care about you, so vote with your wallet and give your money to somebody that does.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I still dont get what exactly is wrong with it.
Its just a re hash of old rules.
Its the fact that GW in the past has always put stuff up for free on their website, especially erratas, and this is an errata in every sense of the word. But instead they threw it in a book that is direct from the website only (alienating discounters and LGSs) made it english ony (alienating every single non english speaking customer) and put a hefty price tag on it.
My FLGS are getting copies for their store. So me and a friend will go together to buy it (he has IG, Chaos and BT while I have Necrons (only mentioning the flier armies))
Even through I'm mostly a quite positive GW supporter, I have to agree with people on this is a huge missed opportunity. The book ibasically just sounds like old WD rules, errata, and a few old campaign rules thrown together, with GW not even bothering to translate and release it properly.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Yeah the space marine FAQ basically says buy the book. What an amazing update. Now GW has managed to turn its FAQ into an advert, bravo.
GW's FAQs previously pointed to a White Dwarf issue (which wasn't available after a while). Now they point to a book that is available. Oh no?
What I'm interested of knowing whether this book will contain updates that are not already covered by codex/WD + errata. It is a bit annoying if you need to get this book even though you already had the rules for your flyers. Not a huge deal in either case, though.
Mmm I have a thought. I'll have to check around my locale area for other army players and we can go all in on the book and just rip out the corisponding pages we each need. Anything say that the book has to be in one piece to use?
@kingsley how odd that I have all the infinity rules on official PDF and only this morning downloaded the malifaux Rulebook from there site. Oh wait a minute your wrong, who would have thought it.
Lets put this in little jimmys perspective as GW loves little jimmy.
Little jimmy enters his local GW having found out he can have a stormraven for his ultraspesh marins, he's excited to be going zoom zoom pew pew real soon.
Grabbing a stormraven in his grubby little mitts he drags mum to the till where he is told that to use it he needs to buy death from the skies aswell. Grudgingly mum asks if the store assistant will grab one for her. He says no, give me £20 and you'll get it in a week. Mum says screw this you can have COD97 like you wanted.
yeah, I've bought this as I buy all their books. hopefully it wil be good and have enought fluff and fun missions to be worth it's money.
Crimson wrote: What I'm interested of knowing whether this book will contain updates that are not already covered by codex/WD + errata. It is a bit annoying if you need to get this book even though you already had the rules for your flyers. Not a huge deal in either case, though.
Today's FAQ invalidates the WD flier rules in 6th edition.
Yesterday players could use the WD updates. Today they are being told the only way to continue using their models legally is to buy this £20 book or the iPad flier eBooks. Their WD rules are no longer valid and That's wrong. GW is making it easy for people to mock them.
Crimson wrote: FAQ will obviously refer to most recent version of the rules, but if the rules are the same, then it won't really matter.
The previous faq replaced all the 5th edition 'mega skimmers' lingo in the WD articles with 6th edition flyer rules.
it was clumsy but it worked, and a lot of people bought those WDs just for their models flyer rules.
Without a current valid FAQ updating the articles, those WD rules have been invalidated within a year of publication.
That's not good value for money.
Why are people complaining that X-Marines get this and Y-Marines get that? You play Space Marines, they're all the same.
If you 'officially' play "Space Wolves" and want to run the Storm Talon, just run a Vanillamarines codex with your existing models and say you're playing Ultrawolves or something. Want to run a Crusader AND a Storm Raven? Play "Wolf Templars", descendant of Black Templars descendant of Imperial Fists.
If you really like the Storm Finch model and you actually run the Forgotten Marines, just drop $500 on your own "three pack" of Thunder Parakeet Gunships for the same deal GW offers you and paint them up in your chapter's colors. Equip them with Wolfblood Wolfmissilewolfwolfs if you want to match the rest of your army.
There are rules for using the Stormraven Gunship with a Codex: Space Marines and Black Templars army; updated rules for the range of Warhammer 40,000 Flyer models, including new bestiary and army list entries for the following codexes:
***Black Templars***, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks and Space Marines.
Hey black templars are gettings some love at least
Okay, SOMEBODY must have gotten this book by now: I know it's against Dakka policy to post rules. That said, can somebody confirm or deny that this book actually nullifies the rules of WD fliers? GW's FAQ only states to see the new book: that, in actuality, means nothing. I'm not asking whoever has the book to post full rules-only post if it does, in fact, invalidate WD.
timetowaste85 wrote: Okay, SOMEBODY must have gotten this book by now: I know it's against Dakka policy to post rules. That said, can somebody confirm or deny that this book actually nullifies the rules of WD fliers? GW's FAQ only states to see the new book: that, in actuality, means nothing. I'm not asking whoever has the book to post full rules-only post if it does, in fact, invalidate WD.
Nobody will have the book because it is mail order only. Earliest anybody can get their hands on this will be probably Tuesday.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Yeah the space marine FAQ basically says buy the book. What an amazing update. Now GW has managed to turn its FAQ into an advert, bravo.
GW's FAQs previously pointed to a White Dwarf issue (which wasn't available after a while). Now they point to a book that is available. Oh no?
Dont be dense, its only available in english and from the webstore. There is nothing you can that makes this a good thing
Huh. I thought a couple people said their store had it-don't want to wade thru 22 pages though to check. I'd expect a few GW stores would have them-like the Memphis Battle Bunker or the Nottingham head store. The idea that people can't get this book from these two places is shocking.
timetowaste85 wrote: Okay, SOMEBODY must have gotten this book by now: I know it's against Dakka policy to post rules. That said, can somebody confirm or deny that this book actually nullifies the rules of WD fliers? GW's FAQ only states to see the new book: that, in actuality, means nothing. I'm not asking whoever has the book to post full rules-only post if it does, in fact, invalidate WD.
What exactly are you worried about? The rules are going to be almost exactly the same as the WD, except that it will include the changes from 6th edition (Flyer instead of Skimmer, etc). You'll be able to play with the WD article no problem.
timetowaste85 wrote: Okay, SOMEBODY must have gotten this book by now: I know it's against Dakka policy to post rules. That said, can somebody confirm or deny that this book actually nullifies the rules of WD fliers? GW's FAQ only states to see the new book: that, in actuality, means nothing. I'm not asking whoever has the book to post full rules-only post if it does, in fact, invalidate WD.
What exactly are you worried about? The rules are going to be almost exactly the same as the WD, except that it will include the changes from 6th edition (Flyer instead of Skimmer, etc). You'll be able to play with the WD article no problem.
Except at events and leagues that require legal current rules physically or electronically present. If those same events allow you to use your old Dark Angel codex as long as you "pencil in" the differences that the new one has then he will be fine. Most simple friendly pickup games will be ok though.
I'm not worried-I'd just like to know for curiosity's sake. I haven't played in 7 months. I also own the WD and the BA and GK codexes. So if I ever go back to 40k, I'd like to know if I can use the rules in those books without ever having to even see this one.
timetowaste85 wrote: Okay, SOMEBODY must have gotten this book by now: I know it's against Dakka policy to post rules. That said, can somebody confirm or deny that this book actually nullifies the rules of WD fliers? GW's FAQ only states to see the new book: that, in actuality, means nothing. I'm not asking whoever has the book to post full rules-only post if it does, in fact, invalidate WD.
What exactly are you worried about? The rules are going to be almost exactly the same as the WD, except that it will include the changes from 6th edition (Flyer instead of Skimmer, etc). You'll be able to play with the WD article no problem.
Except at events and leagues that require legal current rules physically or electronically present. If those same events allow you to use your old Dark Angel codex as long as you "pencil in" the differences that the new one has then he will be fine. Most simple friendly pickup games will be ok though.
There's a huge difference between editions of codexes and the reprinting of a unit entry with the FAQ updates baked in.
There's a huge difference between editions of codexes and the reprinting of a unit entry with the FAQ updates baked in.
And yet they the same thing just to differing degrees of severity. Having the current copy of the rules at the tableside is NOT an unreasonable thing for your opponent or event organizer to ask of you. What is inconvient and unreasonable is the method in which GW is making these "available".
I have my doubts that a secret release of a book, that is not generally available and only in a foreign language, is compulsory and tournament legal. Otherwise I print out a Japanese Codex for my next game.
And yes, GW has been hushhush about this product. No official information until last night. No way to order it until tday. No way to get the order packed until Monday. No way to get it before Tuesday earliets. No preview copies for stores either.
Kroothawk wrote: I have my doubts that a secret release of a book, that is not generally available and only in a foreign language, is compulsory and tournament legal. Otherwise I print out a Japanese Codex for my next game.
And yes, GW has been hushhush about this product. No official information until last night. No way to order it until tday. No way to get the order packed until Monday. No way to get it before Tuesday earliets. No preview copies for stores either.
I didn't know GW had preview copies, they didn't let me look at the warriors of chaos army book, so I refused to buy it based only on their world that it was good
If your GW staffers refuse to show you a newly-released book prior to sale you either have crappy staffers around there or they just don't like you.
I dunno, GW around here, staff practically tries to stuff a new book in your face just to show you all the things there are to buy (then again, they have perfected the pleasant, non-obtrusive hard sell to an impressive extent)...
as a further FYI the Warriors of Chaos book was shrink wrapped so it wasn't so much that your local GW store refused to let you read it as it was that they refused to write off a $55 dollar book just for you. Though it also seems as if any staff who had bought it for themselves also refused to allow your possibly grubby hands to man-handle their books....something I think we can all understand. (ONLY I MAY TOUCH MY BOOK DAMNIT...KEEP YOU CHEETO STAINED HANDS AWAY FROM IT!)
Bolognesus wrote: If your GW staffers refuse to show you a newly-released book prior to sale you either have crappy staffers around there or they just don't like you.
I dunno, GW around here, staff practically tries to stuff a new book in your face just to show you all the things there are to buy (then again, they have perfected the pleasant, non-obtrusive hard sell to an impressive extent)...
Agree. I got to manhandle the new chaos books at length simply because I said, "I am an Ork player and want to see if any of the new rules would make good allies." I have never had a GW store be unfriendly or unhelpful to the degree expressed on the internet.
To be fair I headed into a GW store on vacation just to pick up a new release a few years ago; strassbourg, if I'm not mistaken. A lot of internet clichés started making a lot more sense there, all of a sudden. I get the sense it's a few bad apples spoiling GW's reputation for the plurality of 'good' stores, mostly.
When you guys get your hands on the book, I won't ask you to post rules, but can I get by with my IG codex and the FAQ? Or have they actually drastically changed my army to the extent that I will have to shell out for the book? ....cough
Again, for that matter, because they invalidated my whole army for a while at the start of 6th until they fixed reserves in flyers.
QFT. GW is allergic to money apparently when they make something that only works with about 1/2 of their line. I think it would have been better to wait until every army has fliers before releasing a comprehensive fliers supplement....naw, that makes too much sense. Meanwhile, more of my money gets spent on Dreamforge's sweet sweet plastic crack since GW doesn't want it.
motyak wrote: When you guys get your hands on the book, I won't ask you to post rules, but can I get by with my IG codex and the FAQ? Or have they actually drastically changed my army to the extent that I will have to shell out for the book? ....cough
Again, for that matter, because they invalidated my whole army for a while at the start of 6th until they fixed reserves in flyers.
I'm pretty sure we IG Commanders are safe....for the moment.
motyak wrote: When you guys get your hands on the book, I won't ask you to post rules, but can I get by with my IG codex and the FAQ? Or have they actually drastically changed my army to the extent that I will have to shell out for the book? ....cough
Again, for that matter, because they invalidated my whole army for a while at the start of 6th until they fixed reserves in flyers.
If a book had an entry for a flyer then the changes to that flyer are in the FAQ. If the rules for that flyer were in the white dwarf update then the changes are only in the book. Grey knight, guard, dark eldar, blood angel and necron players do not need this book as they have been updated in the FAQ. Space Marine, Black Templar and Ork players are the only people who will need this book for rules.
If you have the digital rules then those should get updated and you do not need this book.
Tldr, you only need this book for the white dwarf flyers and nothing else. Everything else is in the faqs.
Rob451 wrote: Tldr, you only need this book for the white dwarf flyers and nothing else. Everything else is in the faqs.
But have the rules actually changed in any meaningful way (IOW, more than just "C:SM can take this") from the rules as printed in WD + the 6th edition flyer/HP update? If you've already pirated the WD rules, do you need to waste bandwidth pirating this "book", or do you already have everything you need?
Unless your faq tells you to reference the flyer supplement, you don't need it.
I noticed a few people ask about the GK SR moving to the HS slot. It has not, because the errata didn't move it, nor did it mention that we needed "Death from Above" for the rules.
The only people who might need to book, are ork players that use their flyers, SM players that use the storm talon or wish to now use the SR, or BT players that wish to use the storm talon or SR. If your codex has a flyer printed in it, the erratas are all you need for updated rules.
motyak wrote: When you guys get your hands on the book, I won't ask you to post rules, but can I get by with my IG codex and the FAQ? Or have they actually drastically changed my army to the extent that I will have to shell out for the book? ....cough
Again, for that matter, because they invalidated my whole army for a while at the start of 6th until they fixed reserves in flyers.
I'm pretty sure we IG Commanders are safe....for the moment.
The only thing that is changed in the new FAQ is that they have removed deepstrike and scout for the valk and vendetta.
Kanluwen wrote:Do you really think that Battlefront or Mantic care about you beyond your money?
I don't know about those two companies, but PP certainly makes me feel that way. I'm sure they're only after my money as well, but they don't rub it in my nose.
I have a single Razorwing. Do I really need to buy this new book for 1 model? Will gw have single model pdf stats online, for a small fee? I wouldnt mind paying $3 or $4 for a page or two on just the Dark Eldar stuff... Feel free to pm me....
krazynadechukr wrote: I have a single Razorwing. Do I really need to buy this new book for 1 model? Will gw have single model pdf stats online, for a small fee? I wouldnt mind paying $3 or $4 for a page or two on just the Dark Eldar stuff... Feel free to pm me....
No you don't, your Codex FAQ has been updated to be on par with the DftS contents. In other words, you lost Deep Strike for it, whoopty-doo.
Kanluwen wrote:Do you really think that Battlefront or Mantic care about you beyond your money?
I don't know about those two companies, but PP certainly makes me feel that way. I'm sure they're only after my money as well, but they don't rub it in my nose.
That's all it takes. Pretty much every company is just out to get your money but there is a huge difference between hiding that fact behind a few PR reps and just letting it hang out there. It wouldn't chamge much in the grand scheme of things but if GW understood this there would be less hate aimed directly at them and they would sell more models because of that.
Ordered mine Friday night. We'll see what it looks like, I guess. I'll be glad to finally have a legal copy of the Dakka Jet rules.
Savageconvoy wrote: And here's something I just thought of. How does this affect the game really? Lets say the book did something like drop the AV on Vendettas and valks, or changed the point values on most the flyers.
Lets say I'm playing a standard game and my opponent brings out a Vendetta. I say it's AV11 like the book (theoretically says) but then he points out that his codex says AV12 and has no errata or FAQ stating otherwise.
Seriously? You just thought of that? that's been the primary point of discussion from page 3 to page 17...
Samurai_Eduh wrote: Ordered mine as well. Totally OK with this product! The internet rage tears are a delicious, refreshing nectar.
Ahh another person who drank the kool aid, tasted the rainbow and smelled the coffee.
Please carry on with that sort of mentality. Makes my life so much more wealthier in hours merriment.
If he wants to buy it, its completely up to him,. Who are you to give snide comments? And I would say the same to anyone who gives the opposite reaction too, its up to you not to buy it.
krazynadechukr wrote: I have a single Razorwing. Do I really need to buy this new book for 1 model? Will gw have single model pdf stats online, for a small fee? I wouldnt mind paying $3 or $4 for a page or two on just the Dark Eldar stuff... Feel free to pm me....
No you don't, your Codex FAQ has been updated to be on par with the DftS contents. In other words, you lost Deep Strike for it, whoopty-doo.
tvih wrote: That Space Wolves didn't get a flyer now most likely means they get a "custom" one once their codex get updated, DA-style. BT, it seems, will be "stuck" with these ones, on the other hand. Which, mind you, is fine by me since I can now use them for both C:SM and BT.
I see wolves staying flyerless. They use to be psykerless and now they have the best psykers in the game, so they need something to define them.
Samurai_Eduh wrote: Ordered mine as well. Totally OK with this product! The internet rage tears are a delicious, refreshing nectar.
Ahh another person who drank the kool aid, tasted the rainbow and smelled the coffee.
Please carry on with that sort of mentality. Makes my life so much more wealthier in hours merriment.
Could folks please refrain from these sorts of comments?
Announcing to everyone your schadenfreude isn't particularly friendly or constructive. If you both and everyone else would be so kind as to not do so, that'd be helpful. Thanks very much.
Just thinking about this... many moons ago we got wind of something called the “Summer of Fliers”. What this “Summer of Fliers” was or would be changed quite a bit since we first heard about it, but I guess that this book is the culmination of those original rumours – we did get a flyer ‘expansion’.
I wonder though how “Summer of Flies” became “Direct Only Book of Stuff We Already Printed & No New Rules”?
Yeah, but how many people do you really see using the expansion itself? It seemingly got a very tepid response, and I think I saw maybe three Spearhead games before the novelty wore off.
Spearhead was "optional", essentially bringing a "new way to play". The only thing which really was sought after by many people is the Nightspinner rules--which made a kind of sense to release as a PDF since the parts were coming with the Fire Prism kit to begin with.
(The apostrophes are used to denote corporate speak)
"Death From the Skies" brings something else to the table, with new units being the primary selling point...but not for every faction nor packaged with a Codex legal unit.
I don't necessarily agree with the move, but I can understand why they did it--and why they restricted it to be a "Direct Only" item.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Just thinking about this... many moons ago we got wind of something called the “Summer of Fliers”. What this “Summer of Fliers” was or would be changed quite a bit since we first heard about it, but I guess that this book is the culmination of those original rumours – we did get a flyer ‘expansion’.
I wonder though how “Summer of Flies” became “Direct Only Book of Stuff We Already Printed & No New Rules”?
Don't forget we had a flyer release month in June 2012 (summer!) with WD rules, the ones that are now more or less reprinted. And at least 3-4 more flyers ready for a release for a while (Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Tau, maybe Eldar).
BTW I like your typo: “Summer of Flies”
Perhaps this was the plan; tempt us with snippets from WD, gauge the reactions, then release a full blown product once they see it would sell.
I bet they didn't expect this reaction (a negative one) as we consumers did express a rules compilation for certain things that were exclusively in WD.
Doesn't matter how many times or how many ways you explain it Kan, none of this has anything to do with Spearhead. You're attempting to attribute meaning where there is none, and reaching really far in order to do it.
Kanluwen wrote: "Death From the Skies" brings something else to the table, with new units being the primary selling point...but not for every faction nor packaged with a Codex legal unit.
WarOne wrote: Perhaps this was the plan; tempt us with snippets from WD, gauge the reactions, then release a full blown product once they see it would sell.
I bet they didn't expect this reaction (a negative one) as we consumers did express a rules compilation for certain things that were exclusively in WD.
It would have been better if they would have given some sort of notice for the masses. Would have solved a some of the negativity going on.
but to do this goes against their cone of silence policy concerning new product.
I'm not buying it as I do not buy anything directly from the GW online store regardless.
WarOne wrote: Perhaps this was the plan; tempt us with snippets from WD, gauge the reactions, then release a full blown product once they see it would sell.
This is far from a full blown product. Mail Order only, no preorder, only English, no WD presentation clearly point at a test stop gap product not worthy a regular release.
Have they adjusted the points values of some of the cheaper flyers, have the death bagel, doom bagel, and the vendetta gone up in cost?
Thats all that matters, I dont care about the kits released with no discount, nor do I care about the loss of deep strike on units that barely used it anyway.
If they haven't adjusted these costs... Well missed opportunity to balance.the game a little.
Have they adjusted the points values of some of the cheaper flyers, have the death bagel, doom bagel, and the vendetta gone up in cost?
Thats all that matters, I dont care about the kits released with no discount, nor do I care about the loss of deep strike on units that barely used it anyway.
If they haven't adjusted these costs... Well missed opportunity to balance.the game a little.
If it wasn't covered in the FAQ then no. How would you justify that somebody has to pay more because the DftS book says it does, when the codex says it costs X and no FAQ to say otherwise.
I was hoping this book would bring all the fliers in line for 6th edition *cough*vendetta*cough*, but it looks like I'm still paying 180 points for one AV11 tl-Lascannon when I could ally in an AV12 3 tl-Lascannons flier for 130 points...
I still dont understand why they had to do a whole new book. Why not just reprint the orignial WD with the flyier rules and make that available rather then all this mess.
Ozymandias wrote: I was hoping this book would bring all the fliers in line for 6th edition *cough*vendetta*cough*, but it looks like I'm still paying 180 points for one AV11 tl-Lascannon when I could ally in an AV12 3 tl-Lascannons flier for 130 points...
This was my hope as well. How I continue to think they might change their ways is beyond me.
Ozymandias wrote: I was hoping this book would bring all the fliers in line for 6th edition *cough*vendetta*cough*, but it looks like I'm still paying 180 points for one AV11 tl-Lascannon when I could ally in an AV12 3 tl-Lascannons flier for 130 points...
This was my hope as well. How I continue to think they might change their ways is beyond me.
Maybe if 'Death from Above' sells well enough at £20, they'll do a 2nd Edition Death From Above in a year, for £30, that actually fixes the flier rules so that the game is almost balanced?
Ozymandias wrote: I was hoping this book would bring all the fliers in line for 6th edition *cough*vendetta*cough*, but it looks like I'm still paying 180 points for one AV11 tl-Lascannon when I could ally in an AV12 3 tl-Lascannons flier for 130 points...
This was my hope as well. How I continue to think they might change their ways is beyond me.
Maybe if 'Death from Above' sells well enough at £20, they'll do a 2nd Edition Death From Above in a year, for £30, that actually fixes the flier rules so that the game is almost balanced? 7th Edition flyers are broken again?
Did anyone really think that this would change the points costs in the Codex’s? The current rage that this book seems to be generating would be nothing compared to what would happen if some armies HAD to buy this on top of their codex just to make their army list legal again.
I’m not sure why people are getting so worked up over this. I’ve no intention of buying it myself and think it’s unnecessary and a bit of a waste of money, but GW are quite clear that it’s just a summary of material that has been published elsewhere so they’re not conning people, and it’s just a random mid-month release so I can’t really see the harm it does. If people don’t want it, don’t buy it, and GW will be less likely to do a similar release in the future. It’s clear that GW policies are driven by sales, not by internet ‘feedback’.
Dundas wrote: Did anyone really think that this would change the points costs in the Codex’s? The current rage that this book seems to be generating would be nothing compared to what would happen if some armies HAD to buy this on top of their codex just to make their army list legal again.
I’m not sure why people are getting so worked up over this. I’ve no intention of buying it myself and think it’s unnecessary and a bit of a waste of money, but GW are quite clear that it’s just a summary of material that has been published elsewhere so they’re not conning people, and it’s just a random mid-month release so I can’t really see the harm it does. If people don’t want it, don’t buy it, and GW will be less likely to do a similar release in the future. It’s clear that GW policies are driven by sales, not by internet ‘feedback’.
The FAQ for Codex: Orks states:
White Dwarf June 2012 (WD390)
Updated rules for the Ork Dakkajet, Burna-bommer and Blitzabommer
can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium.
So apparently GW wants to force me to buy this new compendium for the Ork KoS force I'm building. The WD came out about half a year ago, and the Ork codex will probably be released within a year or something, so I simply can't see why they just coulden't have made an addition to the FAQ like they did with Codex: IG.
Its likely any second version will drop "uneeded" flyers like the Ork ones as they need the room for Marine ones.
Lets face it, there are a 1000 Chapters so we can "look forward" to a similar numebr of "unique" crap looking flyers before they bother to look at other armies.............
Mr Morden wrote: Its likely any second version will drop "uneeded" flyers like the Ork ones as they need the room for Marine ones.
Lets face it, there are a 1000 Chapters so we can "look forward" to a similar numebr of "unique" crap looking flyers before they bother to look at other armies.............
What does this add other than you moaning about how much you dislike Marines?
On topic: Stormtalons and Stormravens are nice and all, but Templars will probably remain as bad as before; the issue isn't that there's a lack of fancy, expensive units but that the troops choice is rubbish.
I don't dislike Marines - I have 3 and half Marine armies.
The continuing issue is that other races (which I also play) are not being catered for in any way and this book has done nothing to assist this.
It was about as OT as your point that BT don't have good selections. At least now they have a flyer selection beyond allies - unlike the Nids who get FA.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Maybe if 'Death from Above' sells well enough at £20, they'll do a 2nd Edition Death From Above in a year, for £30, that actually fixes the flier rules so that the game is almost balanced?
Well I was going to buy it, but the UK store at least is showing it is no longer in stock, 2 days after release. If this is a reflection of the demand, then it is most certainly there.
For the reasons why I'd buy it? I don't collect the Whit Dwarf magazines anymore, as the majority of the time it contains nothing of interest to me. The 6th edition flier rules are in use in our gameing group with one person having the campaign book, which had them in, so a second copy would always be useful. I would never be able to get a digital copy as I will never subscribe to Apple's marketing practices - if GW considered releasing digital copies via PC or Android, I probably would purchase a copy, though the physical book is always a preference.
I have dropped their CS a message to see if there will be any reprints, but who knows.
With Death from the Skies now on sale, and with thanks to numerous posts on our wall, consider this an official FAQ:
The rules don't overlap onto Imperial Armour Aeronautica. Any of our flyers that list Deep Strike among their special rules can still Deep Strike.
Stormravens cannot carry Contemptors.
Storm Eagles aren't available to Blood Angels. There's a price for refusing to reveal STC data.
I dropped GW customer service an email about wether they where going to update the digital marine codex to include the stormraven rules and at the moment they havent decided if they will do the update let alone a date to actually do the update.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Maybe if 'Death from Above' sells well enough at £20, they'll do a 2nd Edition Death From Above in a year, for £30, that actually fixes the flier rules so that the game is almost balanced?
Face it folks: This "crap" is already sold out and waiting for a reprint!
Ian Sturrock wrote: Maybe if 'Death from Above' sells well enough at £20, they'll do a 2nd Edition Death From Above in a year, for £30, that actually fixes the flier rules so that the game is almost balanced?
Face it folks: This "crap" is already sold out and waiting for a reprint!
Wouldn't it be sad if this was a limited run and that was all that was going to be available for the near future?
"Availability: No Longer Available Part Code: 60040199031"
From literally the same page...
**STOP PRESS**
Due to exceptional demand Death From The Skies is out of stock. We will make this book available to purchase as soon as we are able, in the meantime please keep checking back on this product page for any updates.
So many space marine players unable to use their storm talons and storm ravens til it's back in print, oh dear. That or they will be busy googling pirate PDFs, what do we think is more likely?
**STOP PRESS**
Due to exceptional demand Death From The Skies is out of stock. We will make this book available to purchase as soon as we are able, in the meantime please keep checking back on this product page for any updates.
@byte first of all that news has been reported on the previous page. Secondly we don't know how large the first print run was so very difficult to judge wether this is a success or not.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @byte first of all that news has been reported on the previous page. Secondly we don't know how large the first print run was so very difficult to judge wether this is a success or not.
The "link" was, not the "statement" for those click challenged(unless I missed it).
It's actually just a conspiracy by the Blood Angel and Grey Knights players. If we buy all the copies then we are still the only ones who can field a Stormraven.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Secondly we don't know how large the first print run was so very difficult to judge wether this is a success or not.
Assuming that they printed enough in the first production run to make back their investment plus some degree of profit, we'd have to assume that selling out their stock is a success. No?
Whether or not future production runs will sell remains to be seen. No one has received their book and reviewed it, yet. I believe, anyway.
We know GW (or more appropriately GW's investors) like smooth, stable income and growth. I wonder if enough books were sold to make this month's data point fall in line with a pretty curve, and then "sold out". More books will be printed when the numbers need to be boosted. And by printed, I mean the boxes in the warehouse will be added to inventory to be sold.
I don't have a problem with GW selling a compendium of rules. We have been asking for a legal way to get stuff from the OOPWDs, and this is it. I do have a problem with just pointing the FAQs at a compendium book.
I have no interest in fielding the storm raven, and will continue to field my talon with the old WD rules.
Well the information we will need confirmed when things actually begin getting into people's hands:
*What has actually 'changed' if anything from each of the WD/digi rule printings. If the rules haven't changed except for 6th edition erratta (in the case of the orks where they added the part about figher ace hitting Flyers) then it isn't an update.
*If/When the Digi codexes stealth update to include the new rules like they have in the past. I have the Digi Ork rules, so if there is a way to 'tell' if there are changes, I will be glad to try to keep an eye out for them. If there are no changes, and exactly the same as the Ork Digi update, then we may not see or need a digital update.
@nkelsch according to GW customer service they currently have no plans to update the digital codex's with these rules. I've asked for further clarification and if I get a response I will post it.
Page 68 – Army List, Stormraven Gunship, Grey Knights
Stormraven Gunship.
Change first sentence to read ‘Stormravens in detachments
chosen from Codex: Grey Knights are Fast Attack and must
replace their stormstrike missiles with mindstrike missiles
(pg 64).
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @nkelsch according to GW customer service they currently have no plans to update the digital codex's with these rules. I've asked for further clarification and if I get a response I will post it.
Until someone gets the book and can actually see what is in it we don't know if 'there are no plans' or if 'there is no need'.
The Digital difference from the WD was basically the 6th edition errata. If all the Skies of death book has is a printed version of the WD rules with the 6th errata, then it isn't actually different from the digital rules, just from the WD rules which already needed errata. Also, we will see if the SM digi codex will update too, or if there is nothing to udpate.
They have been so amazingly good about their digital stealth updates, I would actually be surprised if they started letting digi codexes go out of date this fast.
They have been so amazingly good about their digital stealth updates, I would actually be surprised if they started letting digi codexes go out of date this fast.
Unlike their Army Builder then? Not to be facetious but GW do have form in this area. I wouldn't like to call whether they will/won't update their digital codexes but let's not be blind to the fact that they have set precedent for this sort of thing in the past. Once bitten, twice shy and all that....
That being said, I very much doubt that GW keep the expertise to code their digital codexes/Apple apps in house. Chances are they contract that sort of thing out to an outside developer and that can have a big bearing on when something gets updated because the company that wrote the app might not have the availability to update it within the timelines that GW want.
You would think that having updates roll out at the same time as these 0.5 version rule updates would be a great way to promote and sell more digital codexes. After all the physical book can (and has) go out of stock but it's pretty difficult to run out of a digital product.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @nkelsch according to GW customer service they currently have no plans to update the digital codex's with these rules. I've asked for further clarification and if I get a response I will post it.
Until someone gets the book and can actually see what is in it we don't know if 'there are no plans' or if 'there is no need'.
The Digital difference from the WD was basically the 6th edition errata. If all the Skies of death book has is a printed version of the WD rules with the 6th errata, then it isn't actually different from the digital rules, just from the WD rules which already needed errata. Also, we will see if the SM digi codex will update too, or if there is nothing to udpate.
They have been so amazingly good about their digital stealth updates, I would actually be surprised if they started letting digi codexes go out of date this fast.
Since we know that the C: SM now gets Stormravens and they aren't currently in the digital codex, there is guaranteed to be more in this book than the WD rules.
GW not updating the digital codex would be insanely dumb. Which means they aren't going to do it.
I got mine sent today. I am curious about what changes there are inside, still hoping...
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: You would think that having updates roll out at the same time as these 0.5 version rule updates would be a great way to promote and sell more digital codexes. After all the physical book can (and has) go out of stock but it's pretty difficult to run out of a digital product.
You are wrong, because each digital copy is on a mono-use usb pen, they will eventually run out of usb pens. lol
Due to exceptional demand Death From The Skies is out of stock - it has quite literally flown off the shelves in our warehouse. Never fear though, because the print servitors have already set to work on a new print run - we'll let you know on the product page and here on White Dwarf Daily as soon as the book becomes available again.
After eeading tons of messages on this string. I must say I like the way games workshop supports there game and enjoy this hobby immensly. I for one hope this gets reprinted soon so I can get my copy.
I find it less than thrilling. I had customers asking for the book this week. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with people at GW US, trying for anything. Don't care if I'm not getting it, just please tell me what to tell my customers. They all lied. Pretending they didn't know.
GW is pulling blisters out of US stores, taking away products we used to sell. Keeping us in the dark. Not giving us new releases. Our big information tool is going to always be late. I'm cutting my orders for White Dwarf again.
Sad days from what it used to. They don't care.
Mikhaila, when did you ask the rep at GW about this? The book wasn't "officially" announced till this Saturday. You may know about the book and the rep may know about the book, but if the rep talks about the book before the "official" date, he could get fired.
Still it sounds like GW's store support is going down the drain. You were typically the voice of reason in these type of threads.
Well, doesn't matter to much to me, dumped my GW stock a couple weeks ago.
I find it less than thrilling. I had customers asking for the book this week. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with people at GW US, trying for anything. Don't care if I'm not getting it, just please tell me what to tell my customers. They all lied. Pretending they didn't know.
GW is pulling blisters out of US stores, taking away products we used to sell. Keeping us in the dark. Not giving us new releases. Our big information tool is going to always be late. I'm cutting my orders for White Dwarf again.
Sad days from what it used to. They don't care.
Mikhaila, when did you ask the rep at GW about this? The book wasn't "officially" announced till this Saturday. You may know about the book and the rep may know about the book, but if the rep talks about the book before the "official" date, he could get fired.
Still it sounds like GW's store support is going down the drain. You were typically the voice of reason in these type of threads.
Well, doesn't matter to much to me, dumped my GW stock a couple weeks ago.
Pretty sure that's his point, its hard to support his customers when the whole thing is a big "secret". GW approach on this is nonsense, but that isn't any new news.
I don't understand all the hate. Everyone was wishing that GW came out with Chapter approved again and now that they do something like this along the same lines people are still pissed off what gives?
I am only pissed that I can't order now that it's out of stock and have to wait.
General_Chaos wrote: I don't understand all the hate. Everyone was wishing that GW came out with Chapter approved again and now that they do something like this along the same lines people are still pissed off what gives?
I am only pissed that I can't order now that it's out of stock and have to wait.
I'll summarize the thread for you:
-It puts FLGS at a disadvantage since it's direct only. Many people are more loyal to their FLGS than GW so there is some defensive backlash.
-Only in English and is required for all peoples that play this game if they want to use the items listed. Under the Spanish FAQ, for instance, it says to reference Death From The Skies which is only in English
-The book being direct only and only in English means it's less accessible which makes tournament players annoyed (one of the main reasons FW isn't allowed in most tournaments is rules accessibility)
-GW takin my monies! (the idea that the rules are in a book and not free are just a minor annoyance really)
-Only in English and is required for all peoples that play this game if they want to use the items listed. Under the Spanish FAQ, for instance, it says to reference Death From The Skies which is only in English
That one is not so bad. In Polish Rulebook you have more mistakes than content.
UltraPrime wrote: You could just use the WD article/BA Codex/GK Codex with the information from the FAQs. No big deal.
The problem is that for all we know Dakkajets may automatically crash the turn they arrive now. The rules in White Dwarf are no longer valid because the FAQ no longer references them. This means that in a tournament situation you must use the rules in Death From The Skies.
Now lets not split hairs here: the majority of people who ever used the White Dwarf Fliers didn't own that copy of White Dwarf anyway. This is only going to be an issue for a few more days until the rules become "available" again.
Really what GW did was call the internets bluff. Everybody who downloaded the PDF scan of the White Dwarf claimed they would buy the rules if they were available. GW made them available for money and the internet got upset because now they have to buy them or be a hypocrite.
Considering the first print run sold out in 4 hours (if you believe GW customer service), I'd say that the people clamoring for access to filer rules weren't bluffing.
kronk wrote: Considering the first print run sold out in 4 hours (if you believe GW customer service), I'd say that the people clamoring for access to filer rules weren't bluffing.
I certainly wasn't.
I doubt the ones buying the book are the ones flooding the internet with butthurt comments though.
I was certainly...annoyed that the only way I could get the Dakka Jet rules were either buying the sold out White Dwarf on ebay, buying a iPad then buying the suppliment, or photocopying a friend's WD.
kronk wrote: I wouldn't know about that, honestly.
I was certainly...annoyed that the only way I could get the Dakka Jet rules were either buying the sold out White Dwarf on ebay, buying a iPad then buying the suppliment, or photocopying a friend's WD.
I'm with you on that. The flyers all came out while I wasn't even in the hobby so I completely missed the boat. I'm chuffed they are available to buy now and double chuffed they come with the bit of Dark Crusade I actually cared about.
Byte wrote: GW is having no issue selling the new book.
From GW:
Death From The Skies
**STOP PRESS**
Due to exceptional demand Death From The Skies is out of stock. We will make this book available to purchase as soon as we are able, in the meantime please keep checking back on this product page for any updates.
Artificially creating hype by low balling the initial numbers, its smart, vile and underhanded, but smart. They purposely understock the webstore all the time so they can attach "sold out" to it, its basically a sales pitch that says "get it while you can". Its like throwing crack into a filthy dumpster in front of a crack head in withdrawl.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
General_Chaos wrote: I don't understand all the hate. Everyone was wishing that GW came out with Chapter approved again and now that they do something like this along the same lines people are still pissed off what gives?
I am only pissed that I can't order now that it's out of stock and have to wait.
Chapter approved had a massive collection of rules, I posted it earlier in this thread but there was more then a dozen different army lists that were usable in the normal game and was $35, this book is 6 fliers and add on rules you'll never use for $40, so the comparison is a little off
Artificially creating hype by low balling the initial numbers, its smart, vile and underhanded, but smart. They purposely understock the webstore all the time so they can attach "sold out" to it, its basically a sales pitch that says "get it while you can". Its like throwing crack into a filthy dumpster in front of a crack head in withdrawl.
Citation needed. Don't attribute to malice what can adequately be attributed to incompetence.
kronk wrote: I've started attributing everything that everyone ever does to incompetence. It helps me get through the day. Well, that and half a bottle of bourbon.
Agreed and agreed.
I can't see GW low balling this one. They plainly underestimated demand for rules.
The only reason there is demand for these rules is people couldn't get their hands on the WD after it sold out. Mostly because a lot assumed no one bought it any more and there would be plenty of spare copies.
This is the worst sort in incompetence on GW part. WD sells out proving demand then full rules sell out, they should have know there would be likely high demand.
Maybe they did low ball it, but i'd bet incompetence.
Automatically Appended Next Post: News just in low ball has different meaning then we are using it on this forum
kronk wrote: Customer Service is telling people that the next print run should be ready in 2-3 weeks.
So 2 things I gather from this.
1. The second batch of sales may suffer if the reviews of the first batch are what is speculated... 6 flyers and some dog fight rules.
2. They had an artificially low number for sale. All GW books for the past 5 years at least have been printed in China. For them to have a new run ready in 2-3 weeks means they either have them sitting in warehouse right now, or are printing out of the UK or US.
They'll print in Italy or Eastern Europe, where print costs have dropped enough to make the higher cost offset nicely against the lower shipping and lead time. Trust me on this, I work in the books industry.
1. The second batch of sales may suffer if the reviews of the first batch are what is speculated... 6 flyers and some dog fight rules.
Except everyone knew that this was what was in the book when they ordered it. It is right on the product page. No one is getting fooled here.
2. They had an artificially low number for sale. All GW books for the past 5 years at least have been printed in China. For them to have a new run ready in 2-3 weeks means they either have them sitting in warehouse right now, or are printing out of the UK or US.
Citation needed.
Here's another 'theory' based on the 2-3 week number. They thought they would sell X copies over a period of 3-4 weeks. So they originally printed X copies with X more copies set to be printed and delivered in 2-3 weeks. They instead sold X copies in less than 24 hours. Lucky for them, they have more coming in 2-3 weeks instead of 1-2 months.
See, makes just as much sense but requires less tin foil. Unfortunately for both of us, they are both speculation with no verifiable basis in truth.
kronk wrote: How do we know these rules are significantly different from the WD rules?
We don't, but the FAQ says refer to DFTS. So keep the WD in your bag. The applicable rule set has a more current addition. When/if new daemons come out try using your WD.
If, when folks get the rules, they really are identical to WD + FAQ updates, or codex + FAQ updates, then TOs and players are likely to make having the actual book optional.
If, when folks get the rules, they really are identical to WD + FAQ updates, or codex + FAQ updates, then TOs and players are likely to make having the actual book optional.
Or to paraphrase my sig:
"It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next week all your tears will be valid."
Digital codices have been updated, and apparently points costs have changed. There might be other changes as well. I cannot verify as I don't have iPad.
Other forums are discussing this instead of bitching about the rules existing.
Digital codices have been updated, and apparently points costs have changed. There might be other changes as well. I cannot verify as I don't have iPad.
Other forums are discussing this instead of bitching about the rules existing.
Digital codices have been updated, and apparently points costs have changed. There might be other changes as well. I cannot verify as I don't have iPad.
Other forums are discussing this instead of bitching about the rules existing.
You could have linked to something rather than just bitching about the thread... And those posts are VERY recent.
From the Warseer thread:
Yep the digital codex is updated, so I can confirm that the storm talon is cheaper than before. Most weapon options actually cost the same as before with the exception of skyhammer missiles, which are a lot cheaper and now look like a compelling choice.
The SM storm raven costs the same as a BA one and has basically the same options. Its missiles are the same strength but not quite as good AP.
Oddly then, the release of this book makes a compelling argument for digital codexes, and getting an ipad. If you have these, you don't need this book and your codex will update automatically, kind of like it was the 21st century or something.
Are you sure?
Because i've seen other people report that while the skyhammers dropped in points,lasers and thypoons went up (while still ending at less point total than before thanks to the base ST point drop)
He's wrong.
These are the changes:
Base cost down to 110 points.
Skyhammer down 10.
Lascannons up 10.
Typhoon up 10.
I was pretty sure base cost was 130 before so it's only a 20pt reduction. With a total 10pt reduction if armed with the LC or Typhoon and a 30pt reduction on the skyhammer variant. Interesting though. It was silly priced and who wouldn't pay 50 more points for a TL-MM, TL-LC, and 4 St8 AP2 missiles?
It does make you wonder if the Vendetta got a point change or not though. Or if the Ork fighters did. Hmmm...
kronk wrote: Considering the first print run sold out in 4 hours (if you believe GW customer service), I'd say that the people clamoring for access to filer rules weren't bluffing.
I certainly wasn't.
I'd like to see an honest presentation of this book in the next WD:
Here is our new shiny "Death from the Sky" compendium including essential rules changes for most armies. It is a must have for everyone wanting to continue playing 40k. Sorry for those suckers that depend on reading this announcement in WD, because you missed the 4 hours this book was available. But being a secret release, we couldn't inform you while it was available. Thank you for subscribing WD, the ultimate advertising tool for essential things you just missed.
(Okay, I know that there will be a reprint some day)
That said, it is not due to malice or incompetence that the stock lasted only 4 hours despite all anti-marketing. The warehouses are still full with limited edition Hobbit starters, Death Talons and Throggs, so there was only space left for 100 copies of "Death from the Sky"
I got my GW email that it was available for order just as I was about to go out on a dinner date and said "Wait. There is something I must do!" Then I ordered it and said "Mission Complete. We may now proceed to Taco Bell. In honor of my triumph, you may order from the $3 and up menu."
kronk wrote: @ nkelsch: No idea, man. I don't have an iPad.
I deleted my Ork flyer iBook from all devices then re-downloaded it. No visible change from what I can tell, but I was hoping there was some sort of ID or revision number I need to be looking for.
Well DftS, got it's first FAQ. Scroll down to the bottom all the way. Funny it's listed as DA. Like someone said on the B&C site (where I first read it from) now they will have to FAQ the FAQLOL.
Davor wrote: Well DftS, got it's first FAQ. Scroll down to the bottom all the way. Funny it's listed as DA. Like someone said on the B&C site (where I first read it from) now they will have to FAQ the FAQLOL.
I have updated my digital Space Marine codex 4 times and there is still no change to the points cost of the Stormtalon and the Stormraven is not in there. Is there something I am not doing correct??
Thanks for the help
Never mind I figured it out. For some reason I have to delete the old one and redownload.
I got my shipping notice today. I can say I'm genuinely excited to have the ork flyer rules as well as the dog fight rules as both of the original printings of those rules sold out before I got my hands on them.
Im still hoping there is some more content that we don't know about, but even if there isnt it will be nice to have all the flyer rules in 1 place.
Davor wrote: Well DftS, got it's first FAQ. Scroll down to the bottom all the way. Funny it's listed as DA. Like someone said on the B&C site (where I first read it from) now they will have to FAQ the FAQLOL.
Davor wrote: Well DftS, got it's first FAQ. Scroll down to the bottom all the way. Funny it's listed as DA. Like someone said on the B&C site (where I first read it from) now they will have to FAQ the FAQLOL.
Glad to see that people were jumping the gun on that particular issue. I was holding out speculation until the damn thing actually got in our hands and leaked online.
Sigh, looks like i need this before i can play mt stormtalon again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, if the points changed, this will be required.
But what about people who dont have it? What about at tourneys?
Let say someone bought the Burna_bommer out, do they have to have that if they are to use the rules?
hotsauceman1 wrote: Sigh, looks like i need this before i can play mt stormtalon again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, if the points changed, this will be required.
But what about people who dont have it? What about at tourneys?
Let say someone bought the Burna_bommer out, do they have to have that if they are to use the rules?
In terms of tournament play, I'd say that DFtS is probably mandatory because they generally require the most up-to-date version of the rules. In a friendly game, I'd say it's between you and your opponent.
So to use a Potato now requires the model (duh) the Marine codex, and another $40 book?
That is ever so cute.
Frankly, if GW wants to release new units outside of codex releases, the rules should be freely available. We're already shelling out the cost for the model and what's theoretically a complete codex. I feel bad for the people with the ever-so-valued WD, as it's now invalid too.
Artificially creating hype by low balling the initial numbers, its smart, vile and underhanded, but smart. They purposely understock the webstore all the time so they can attach "sold out" to it, its basically a sales pitch that says "get it while you can". Its like throwing crack into a filthy dumpster in front of a crack head in withdrawl.
Citation needed. Don't attribute to malice what can adequately be attributed to incompetence.
I would love too, I honestly would, but there is a line where it stops looking like stupid and starts looking more like they are doing it out of spite and malice.
Having just seen the SM codex update for the third time since I bought the digital version I decided to get the Ork rules, even though I bought the WD on release day (it was getting a pain to be honest, as so much of it was scribbled out and rewritten)
There seemed to be an obvious difference in that all 3 variants now get Waaargh! Plane, but I couldn't see any other major changes from memory.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and despite the fact that they're annoying me with a lot of other decisions, kudos to GW on their digital products; they're a very high quality product that's nice to look at and easy to use and they're doing the right thing so far in keeping them up to date.
I really hope they release them to the rest of the world soon...
Jadenim wrote: Having just seen the SM codex update for the third time since I bought the digital version I decided to get the Ork rules, even though I bought the WD on release day (it was getting a pain to be honest, as so much of it was scribbled out and rewritten)
There seemed to be an obvious difference in that all 3 variants now get Waaargh! Plane, but I couldn't see any other major changes from memory.
All three already had Waaagh! plane.
And if they haven't made any changes that works for me. I still have the White Dwarf and the old FAQ, which basically just tells you to use the flyer rules.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Sigh, looks like i need this before i can play mt stormtalon again.
Just make sure if you want to play at GW stores (compulsory there, but most forbid playing) or an independent store (most promote playing, but some banned this book for several reasons http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/508055.page ).
GW now has a new strategy of selling books: Just change one point cost or rule, say it's official, and the book will sell out in no time regardless of the content. Wonder how long this will work.
The GW website already lists the book as out of stock!
The summary of the book says "There are rules for using the Stormraven Gunship with a Codex: Space Marines and Black Templars army; updated rules for the range of Warhammer 40,000 Flyer models, including new bestiary and army list entries for the following codexes: Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks and Space Marines."
New army list entries? So is anyone able to confirm if Grey Knights were granted access to the Stormtalon?
You should probably read at least a page or two before posting, all the questions have been answered many times over. In short: Nothing new for GK and BA, SRaven and Talon for SM and BT, book apparently mandatory for Orks.
I did read a few pages but the conversation trailed off so I asked the question directly instead of trolling through 27 pages for a specific post.
So it seems that despite the claim on the official website under the product description that there are 'new army list entries' for several armies, there are in fact none. Can't say i'm surprised considering the state of most GW gaming literature.
Oh well, at least now I know that I don't have to buy the damn thing and can spend my money on more models instead!
I'm pretty sure I read on a different thread ( there's like 3 or 4 of them). That someone stated that there are points and rules changes if your using orks, codex space marines or BT.
I did read a few pages but the conversation trailed off so I asked the question directly instead of trolling through 27 pages for a specific post.
So it seems that despite the claim on the official website under the product description that there are 'new army list entries' for several armies, there are in fact none. Can't say i'm surprised considering the state of most GW gaming literature.
Oh well, at least now I know that I don't have to buy the damn thing and can spend my money on more models instead!
Not sure if serious....
Codex Space Marines now has access to the Storm Raven. That'd be a new army list entry. edit: Also Black Templar. So that'd be two.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Sigh, looks like i need this before i can play mt stormtalon again.
Just make sure if you want to play at GW stores (compulsory there, but most forbid playing) or an independent store (most promote playing, but some banned this book for several reasons http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/508055.page ).
GW now has a new strategy of selling books: Just change one point cost or rule, say it's official, and the book will sell out in no time regardless of the content. Wonder how long this will work.
*Sigh* if they do that, that would be the final straw for me. I hope this doesnt become a new thing. I really reallly hope
Best thing to do is just work together as a community and make sure people get the rules they need, in my case I've got the digital marine codex and will be taking screenshots for anyone in my gaming group who needs those rules. Sharing of info is definately a way everyone can work together on this while the rules are still restricted.
I did read a few pages but the conversation trailed off so I asked the question directly instead of trolling through 27 pages for a specific post.
So it seems that despite the claim on the official website under the product description that there are 'new army list entries' for several armies, there are in fact none. Can't say i'm surprised considering the state of most GW gaming literature.
Oh well, at least now I know that I don't have to buy the damn thing and can spend my money on more models instead!
Not sure if serious....
Codex Space Marines now has access to the Storm Raven. That'd be a new army list entry.
edit: Also Black Templar. So that'd be two.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I said this with context to my previous question regarding GK's. The description on the official site for the product reads to suggest there are new army entries for all of the armies mentioned thereafter, including the likes of Blood Angels and Grey Knights, yet there are no new entries for either army which is misleading.
If I wasn't a member of an online community such as Dakka, I perhaps wouldn't have access to the info in this thread, and as a result I may be mislead into believing my army had access to new units for use on the tabletop when in fact it has none, completely wasting my money.
Enceladus wrote: Sorry for the misunderstanding, I said this with context to my previous question regarding GK's. The description on the official site for the product reads to suggest there are new army entries for all of the armies mentioned thereafter, including the likes of Blood Angels and Grey Knights, yet there are no new entries for either army which is misleading.
If I wasn't a member of an online community such as Dakka, I perhaps wouldn't have access to the info in this thread, and as a result I may be mislead into believing my army had access to new units for use on the tabletop when in fact it has none, completely wasting my money.
Well I don't have the book (obviously) but what they may have done is publish a generic Storm Raven (ie with Stormstrike missiles) and have the upgrade options per Codex (ie Psybolt ammo, Mandatory swap from Stormstrike to Mindstrike missiles for GK).
That would be a new Army List entry, even if it has the same effect as the one in your Codex. Also, the price of upgrades/the base model may have changed. We don't know yet.
So after reading across multiple threads and spotty accounts of what is in the book (as no one seems to be ork focused)
The result for Ork players is:
*DftS has the exact same content as the Digital Chapter Approved: Ork Bomma download, so no changes in points or rules.
*DftS is the same as the WD article with the previous 6th edition FAQ fix applied.
So if you own a digi update You are good, if you have the WD article, you just need a copy of the previous Errata to tape in your WD.
Can anyone provide hard evidence of this? Someone who has the book and is aware of the ork rules?
one part of me is happy that i can use a storm raven and that the storm talon has had it's point cost drop a bit. but finding the new rules is going to be a bit of a pain. if the book had been priced at 25 i would have bought one. i don't mind the 40 or so for a codex. but a 70 page 35 dollar book that only has 2-3 pages i care about is a bit much. with any luck someone i know will buy it.
Enceladus wrote: Sorry for the misunderstanding, I said this with context to my previous question regarding GK's. The description on the official site for the product reads to suggest there are new army entries for all of the armies mentioned thereafter, including the likes of Blood Angels and Grey Knights, yet there are no new entries for either army which is misleading.
If I wasn't a member of an online community such as Dakka, I perhaps wouldn't have access to the info in this thread, and as a result I may be mislead into believing my army had access to new units for use on the tabletop when in fact it has none, completely wasting my money.
Well I don't have the book (obviously) but what they may have done is publish a generic Storm Raven (ie with Stormstrike missiles) and have the upgrade options per Codex (ie Psybolt ammo, Mandatory swap from Stormstrike to Mindstrike missiles for GK).
That would be a new Army List entry, even if it has the same effect as the one in your Codex. Also, the price of upgrades/the base model may have changed. We don't know yet.
All they've done is added a few sections which basically say "GK Stormraven - No changes. Nothing to see here. Refer to the codex." This allows them to name drop the codex in the description to mislead the customer into thinking they get new units and/or rules when in fact they get nothing of the sort.
I won't be buying it because it's useless to me so it's not a personal complaint, I just feel sorry for those that don't play any of the 3 affected armies and are disappointed upon receipt that all they've got are a re-print of the dogfighting rules, new rules for Ork Flyers and a couple of pages that give two armies use of the Stormraven.
I see lots of complaints and refunds in the near future!
So, what I'm getting from all the griping here is that the digital SM codex on my iPad just payed for itself with the rules updates. Now if only my Dark Angels and Necron digital codexes would do the same...
Being Dark Angels book is brand new, and this has nothing to do with it at all..... no, no it doesn't 'sides - from what I've heard the Dark Angels flyers aren't that bad, just not especially brilliant.
Ovion wrote: Being Dark Angels book is brand new, and this has nothing to do with it at all..... no, no it doesn't 'sides - from what I've heard the Dark Angels flyers aren't that bad, just not especially brilliant.
Nah, they're pretty useless. The bomber is terrible and the fighter is only semi-ways decent with a lascannon, but even then it's totally outclassed by every other flyer in the game.
Ovion wrote: Being Dark Angels book is brand new, and this has nothing to do with it at all..... no, no it doesn't 'sides - from what I've heard the Dark Angels flyers aren't that bad, just not especially brilliant.
Nah, they're pretty useless. The bomber is terrible and the fighter is only semi-ways decent with a lascannon, but even then it's totally outclassed by every other flyer in the game.
Better than some.
180pts for AV11 all round, missiles that fire at BS5, a twinlinked heavy bolter and a twinlinked lascannon isn't terrible.
A Voidraven bomber, with what's basically 2 lascannons, and 4 missiles (that would be Str6, ap5, or Str7, ap-) would be 185, for AV11/11/10.
So the Dark Eldar equivalent would cost roughly 215 for the same thing - and you're complaining about this one.
Oh - and according to rumours, the Storm Talon, which was already better armed and armoured than my flyers while being cheaper, just had a points reduction.
Anyone thought oh how this will affect the ETC? If there really are point changes, and with SM and Templars getting new units, then English-speaking teams will be showing up with army lists everyone else will see as illegal. I know it's kind of a small problem and something that they will make their own ruling on, but just something that came to mind.
MandalorynOranj wrote: Anyone thought oh how this will affect the ETC? If there really are point changes, and with SM and Templars getting new units, then English-speaking teams will be showing up with army lists everyone else will see as illegal. I know it's kind of a small problem and something that they will make their own ruling on, but just something that came to mind.
bullocks.
Everyone who goes to ETC is at minimum competent enough to keep up to date with latest rules developments online. Using english rulesets is the norm for tournament play in the german language area - so there will be no problem of the likes you describe.
At £20, the book is 72 pages long. Softcover, reminiscent of the old Campaign book covers (EG Black Crusade)
The back cover is just a load of pictures of the flyers for sale.
Page 5 - 20: "The Battle of Cadrim" - This looks like a slightly extended version of the section in White Dwarf when the storm talon came out. It includes the same pictures of the White Scars armies etc.
Page 23 - 29: Air War Missions.
Mission 1: Deadly Bridgehead: Space Marines with Necron allies, against Orks.
Mission 2: Scramble; Space Marines V Orks
Mission 3: Aerial Assault: Necrons V orks with Space Marine allies
Mission 4: Death from the Skies: Necrons V Marines
Page 32 - 40: Burning Skies - Looks like a reprint of the Crusade of Fire rules
Page 40 - 55: Gallery pictures
Now we're coming to the important bit
Page 56: StormRaven Beastiary: It includes the FAQ updates. EG, a Dreadnaught taking s10 hits if the flyer explodes and is zooming. The important note is Blood Angels and Grey Knights armies use the rules printed here though their storm ravens have additional wargear options and rules - see the army list for details. Also, new piece of artwork. An ultrasmurf storm raven.
Page 57: Storm Talon: Still 2 HP. It now has the Strafing Run rules. Type (Flyer, Hover). Escort craft rules looks to be clarified to avoid anything BS-ey. Can't escort anything using Outflank / Deepstriking. Plus other stuff. NO supersonic rules
Page 58: Valkyrie/Vendetta: Exactly the same as the IG codex, but with HP's added in - Same as rulebook. Also the Grav Chute Insertion rules have been updated with the FAQ rules
Page 59: VoidRaven/Razorwing: I'm assuming these are the same? Razorwing Armour 10, VoidRaven Armour 11. Night Vision/Supersonic rules
Page 60: DoomScythe: Looks the same as before
Page 61: NightScythe: Broadly the same as before. They clarify the embarked unit doesn't take damage when destroyed. Also they enter through normal reserves? No mention of rembarking on a night scythe... However. "If a night scythe has moved more than 24", the disembarking unit may only fire snap shots."
Page 62: Dakkajet: No Hover. However, Strafing run, supersonic. Fighta Ace upgrade has been renamed to 'flyboss' - it basically gives him Strafing Run against things you don't get strafing run against.... Aside from that, same as before.
Page 63: Burna Bomber, Blitza Bomber: Seems the same as before, with obvious changes. No hover. Supersonic, waaagh plane! Points costs and upgrades are identical to White Dwarf.
Page 64: Wargear. A burna bomb is a bomb... Death Ray looks like it has rules changes... It hurts friendly models too. It can't hurt zooming flyers or flying monstrous creatures.
Page 65: Wargear. Everything looks the same.
Page 66: StormStrike Missiles: I dunno what to say, they actually seem to kick rear end... S8, AP2, concussive...
Page 68: Army List:
Storm Raven: Heavy Support: Yup, marines and templars get storm raven. Nothing for space puppies. Grey Knights and Blood Angels don't get stormstrike missiles. The rest looks broadly similar
Storm Talon: Marines/Black Templars only (typical). Fast Attack. A lot cheaper in points. The most expensive version is 10 points cheaper than before.
Page 69: Army List:
Valkyrie And Vendetta: Identical to earlier rules
Page 70:
Razorwing, Voidraven, Doom Scythe, Night Scythe:
I think these are identical to their normal rules
Page 71: The Ork Flyers: In all honesty, they seem the same as the white dwarf. I think someone with more of an ork brain will need to pick out the diffferences.
Page 72: Summary Page.
------------------
So, there you go. That's what your getting for your £20, and that's what the FLGS' are losing out on.
Edit: So, in summary, it seems only Black Templars and Codex Marines players really need to buy it.
It shouldn't be... I've not revealed points costs, it's only selected quotes as part of the review process. Just about the only controversial thing I've got is mentioning the stormstrike special rules and the 'ultrasmurf' quip.
I'm pretty sure Legoburner allows people to review products...
So, I ordered and am one of those who got delayed, but I just got an email (4 actually) apologizing and giving me a $25 virtual gift voucher to spend in apology with assurances my book will ship/arrive around March 4th!
GmanV2 wrote: So, I ordered and am one of those who got delayed, but I just got an email (4 actually) apologizing and giving me a $25 virtual gift voucher to spend in apology with assurances my book will ship/arrive around March 4th!
GW did good with that I think.
Oh, that's quite a decent solution - that's more thsn half of the value of the entire book
I received the same e-mail (err, well, same 4 e-mails actually). It's a pretty solid move on their part for the trouble, especially as I ordered something else with the book so I'll be waiting on that for a few weeks now too.
Gar'Ang wrote:It did, read the last couple of pages, it's there somewhere
Compel wrote:My Review of the Book
Page 57: Storm Talon: Still 2 HP. It now has the Strafing Run rules. Type (Flyer, Hover). Escort craft rules looks to be clarified to avoid anything BS-ey. Can't escort anything using Outflank / Deepstriking. Plus other stuff. NO supersonic rules
I assume you were too lazy to do any research at all regarding this book? There never was any mention of Eldar or Tau being in this book with their upcoming Codex releases.
kronk wrote: Some people are claiming to have received an email that the 2nd printing won't be available until Late March or Early April.
I ordered the book early Saturday morning at the Games Workshop Battle Bunker in Bowie, MD before 11 am, yet GW has put me into the list of people who's book is back-ordered. However, they have sent me a virtual voucher as an apology that more than makes up for the delay in receiving my book.
GmanV2 wrote: So, I ordered and am one of those who got delayed, but I just got an email (4 actually) apologizing and giving me a $25 virtual gift voucher to spend in apology with assurances my book will ship/arrive around March 4th!
GW did good with that I think.
Oh, that's quite a decent solution - that's more thsn half of the value of the entire book
Of course it comes with the usual gift card caveat of having a gift card of $X value which means you will then spend $X * 2 when you actually use it.
Definitely nice of them to offer up a gift voucher for those who got delayed shipping of the book.
Skriker
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Farseer Faenyin wrote: I assume you were too lazy to do any research at all regarding this book? There never was any mention of Eldar or Tau being in this book with their upcoming Codex releases.
Well given that until the book was in hand it was not *known*, but assumed there would be no Eldar or Tau in the book and some people were still hopeful that such might not be the case there is no reason to be rude about it.
Also with chaos daemons looking probable for the next codex there is even more reason for people to hope that there would have been a bump for two of the oldest books in the rotation.
Either way until the book is released and people see what it is in it, it is all just conjecture and rumor.
At £20, the book is 72 pages long. Softcover, reminiscent of the old Campaign book covers (EG Black Crusade)
The back cover is just a load of pictures of the flyers for sale.
Page 5 - 20: "The Battle of Cadrim" - This looks like a slightly extended version of the section in White Dwarf when the storm talon came out. It includes the same pictures of the White Scars armies etc.
Page 23 - 29: Air War Missions.
Mission 1: Deadly Bridgehead: Space Marines with Necron allies, against Orks.
Mission 2: Scramble; Space Marines V Orks
Mission 3: Aerial Assault: Necrons V orks with Space Marine allies
Mission 4: Death from the Skies: Necrons V Marines
Page 32 - 40: Burning Skies - Looks like a reprint of the Crusade of Fire rules
Page 40 - 55: Gallery pictures
Now we're coming to the important bit
Page 56: StormRaven Beastiary: It includes the FAQ updates. EG, a Dreadnaught taking s10 hits if the flyer explodes and is zooming. The important note is Blood Angels and Grey Knights armies use the rules printed here though their storm ravens have additional wargear options and rules - see the army list for details. Also, new piece of artwork. An ultrasmurf storm raven.
Page 57: Storm Talon: Still 2 HP. It now has the Strafing Run rules. Type (Flyer, Hover). Escort craft rules looks to be clarified to avoid anything BS-ey. Can't escort anything using Outflank / Deepstriking. Plus other stuff. NO supersonic rules
Page 58: Valkyrie/Vendetta: Exactly the same as the IG codex, but with HP's added in - Same as rulebook. Also the Grav Chute Insertion rules have been updated with the FAQ rules
Page 59: VoidRaven/Razorwing: I'm assuming these are the same? Razorwing Armour 10, VoidRaven Armour 11. Night Vision/Supersonic rules
Page 60: DoomScythe: Looks the same as before
Page 61: NightScythe: Broadly the same as before. They clarify the embarked unit doesn't take damage when destroyed. Also they enter through normal reserves? No mention of rembarking on a night scythe... However. "If a night scythe has moved more than 24", the disembarking unit may only fire snap shots."
Page 62: Dakkajet: No Hover. However, Strafing run, supersonic. Fighta Ace upgrade has been renamed to 'flyboss' - it basically gives him Strafing Run against things you don't get strafing run against.... Aside from that, same as before.
Page 63: Burna Bomber, Blitza Bomber: Seems the same as before, with obvious changes. No hover. Supersonic, waaagh plane! Points costs and upgrades are identical to White Dwarf.
Page 64: Wargear. A burna bomb is a bomb... Death Ray looks like it has rules changes... It hurts friendly models too. It can't hurt zooming flyers or flying monstrous creatures.
Page 65: Wargear. Everything looks the same.
Page 66: StormStrike Missiles: I dunno what to say, they actually seem to kick rear end... S8, AP2, concussive...
Page 68: Army List:
Storm Raven: Heavy Support: Yup, marines and templars get storm raven. Nothing for space puppies. Grey Knights and Blood Angels don't get stormstrike missiles. The rest looks broadly similar
Storm Talon: Marines/Black Templars only (typical). Fast Attack. A lot cheaper in points. The most expensive version is 10 points cheaper than before.
Page 69: Army List:
Valkyrie And Vendetta: Identical to earlier rules
Page 70:
Razorwing, Voidraven, Doom Scythe, Night Scythe:
I think these are identical to their normal rules
Page 71: The Ork Flyers: In all honesty, they seem the same as the white dwarf. I think someone with more of an ork brain will need to pick out the diffferences.
Page 72: Summary Page.
------------------
So, there you go. That's what your getting for your £20, and that's what the FLGS' are losing out on.
Edit: So, in summary, it seems only Black Templars and Codex Marines players really need to buy it.
So it looks like I'm safe in deciding to not get this release. Being an IG player, why would I?
At £20, the book is 72 pages long. Softcover, reminiscent of the old Campaign book covers (EG Black Crusade)
The back cover is just a load of pictures of the flyers for sale.
Page 5 - 20: "The Battle of Cadrim" - This looks like a slightly extended version of the section in White Dwarf when the storm talon came out. It includes the same pictures of the White Scars armies etc.
Page 23 - 29: Air War Missions.
Mission 1: Deadly Bridgehead: Space Marines with Necron allies, against Orks.
Mission 2: Scramble; Space Marines V Orks
Mission 3: Aerial Assault: Necrons V orks with Space Marine allies
Mission 4: Death from the Skies: Necrons V Marines
Page 32 - 40: Burning Skies - Looks like a reprint of the Crusade of Fire rules
Page 40 - 55: Gallery pictures
Now we're coming to the important bit
Page 56: StormRaven Beastiary: It includes the FAQ updates. EG, a Dreadnaught taking s10 hits if the flyer explodes and is zooming. The important note is Blood Angels and Grey Knights armies use the rules printed here though their storm ravens have additional wargear options and rules - see the army list for details. Also, new piece of artwork. An ultrasmurf storm raven.
Page 57: Storm Talon: Still 2 HP. It now has the Strafing Run rules. Type (Flyer, Hover). Escort craft rules looks to be clarified to avoid anything BS-ey. Can't escort anything using Outflank / Deepstriking. Plus other stuff. NO supersonic rules
Page 58: Valkyrie/Vendetta: Exactly the same as the IG codex, but with HP's added in - Same as rulebook. Also the Grav Chute Insertion rules have been updated with the FAQ rules
Page 59: VoidRaven/Razorwing: I'm assuming these are the same? Razorwing Armour 10, VoidRaven Armour 11. Night Vision/Supersonic rules
Page 60: DoomScythe: Looks the same as before
Page 61: NightScythe: Broadly the same as before. They clarify the embarked unit doesn't take damage when destroyed. Also they enter through normal reserves? No mention of rembarking on a night scythe... However. "If a night scythe has moved more than 24", the disembarking unit may only fire snap shots."
Page 62: Dakkajet: No Hover. However, Strafing run, supersonic. Fighta Ace upgrade has been renamed to 'flyboss' - it basically gives him Strafing Run against things you don't get strafing run against.... Aside from that, same as before.
Page 63: Burna Bomber, Blitza Bomber: Seems the same as before, with obvious changes. No hover. Supersonic, waaagh plane! Points costs and upgrades are identical to White Dwarf.
Page 64: Wargear. A burna bomb is a bomb... Death Ray looks like it has rules changes... It hurts friendly models too. It can't hurt zooming flyers or flying monstrous creatures.
Page 65: Wargear. Everything looks the same.
Page 66: StormStrike Missiles: I dunno what to say, they actually seem to kick rear end... S8, AP2, concussive...
Page 68: Army List:
Storm Raven: Heavy Support: Yup, marines and templars get storm raven. Nothing for space puppies. Grey Knights and Blood Angels don't get stormstrike missiles. The rest looks broadly similar
Storm Talon: Marines/Black Templars only (typical). Fast Attack. A lot cheaper in points. The most expensive version is 10 points cheaper than before.
Page 69: Army List:
Valkyrie And Vendetta: Identical to earlier rules
Page 70:
Razorwing, Voidraven, Doom Scythe, Night Scythe:
I think these are identical to their normal rules
Page 71: The Ork Flyers: In all honesty, they seem the same as the white dwarf. I think someone with more of an ork brain will need to pick out the diffferences.
Page 72: Summary Page.
------------------
So, there you go. That's what your getting for your £20, and that's what the FLGS' are losing out on.
Edit: So, in summary, it seems only Black Templars and Codex Marines players really need to buy it.
So it looks like I'm safe in deciding to not get this release. Being an IG player, why would I?
It depends. If you can convince your opponent to use the Burning Skies rules then you can do some very nasty things with the special manoeuvres Guard have access to
Also I picked this book up tonight from my local GW who got a couple of copies in their delivery today. They were sold within about 60 seconds and everything that has been said by Compel is 100% accurate. If you have Ork flyers and have the WD update you don't need this book as all that changed were the names of special rules not what they do. The only flyer that has had any significant changes was the Storm Talon which just got a lot better and is now a premier ground attack flyer.
kronk wrote: Some people are claiming to have received an email that the 2nd printing won't be available until Late March or Early April.
I ordered the book early Saturday morning at the Games Workshop Battle Bunker in Bowie, MD before 11 am, yet GW has put me into the list of people who's book is back-ordered. However, they have sent me a virtual voucher as an apology that more than makes up for the delay in receiving my book.
Credit is given when credit is due and it is a class act on giving vouchers to people waiting for their order.
Lets see...
FLGS cant order the first printing - only via GW website, people are usually going to add a few other things to the shopping kart while they are there..
Not enough copies printed - this creates false demand, people see it out of stock and think it must be good if its sold out so quickly.
Vouchers for 1/2 the price of the book to people waiting for the 2nd printing - vouchers that can only be redeemed via the GW website, again screwing the FLGS. And again, people are likely to add a few things to the kart while they are there.
Knowing GW modus operandi, how much could the book possibly be worth if they are willing to give the 2nd printing away for half price?
Call me cynical... the entirety of the book can be summed up in one simple statement - 1 new toy for the biggest demographic.
Why upgrade the 2 flyers for BT?
BT players are broadly speaking a group of people who would now be either mid to late 20's and financially liquid, or late teens with an income but still at home - those who started with the 1998 3rd edition starter set, or those who started with the 2005 4th edition BT codex. And given the nature of 40k players in general, throw them a bone to ignite the flames of a long neglected, dust collecting box in the cupboard and watch the fire burn anew!
Add a free voucher for the online store and the relapse into plastic addiction is not far away.
And don't for a second think that this is GW hate - they are a very successful multi million pound company with vast market share with a niche product. You dont get to that position by having no idea what you are doing - you get there by knowing your market intimately, and bleeding them dry, and doing it in a way that keeps them coming back for more.
Bravo, GW.
Bravo.
I hope everyone who got the 1st printing is feeling royally rogered right about now.
While Death from the Skies seems to update flyers in other codices and provide solid access to rules for Dakkajet/Bommer and Sky Talon, Sisters of Battle, who also got the WD treatment, get nothing! Judging from what I've found online (don't have the actual book to verify), I don't see any Figher Ace traits for Sisters of Battle. I don't like where this is headed...
Sisters of Battle, who also got the WD treatment, get nothing!
For nearly 10 years every single time a model range got a new army book and or any new models we had to hear from Dark Eldar players whining that they haven't had a revision (for the record, I own an original DE army and never complained like so many others). Ever since the Dark Eldar finally got their new models and Codex it's always either the Templars or SoB whining with every release. The model range mentioned in the complaining eventually changes over time, but the obsessive gamer behavior pointing out that a certain model range has still not been revised never does. Yes, we know SoB were not updated with this month's release or last month's or the month before that nor did they get anything new at all. Yes we noticed, but thanks for pointing it out once again because who knows, someone might forget for a second.
It seems to me that Death From The Skies is pretty useful, fun and even essential for gaming with certain models now. My complaint would be that anything that essential, especially with official rules for tourneys and the like, should be easily available to all 40K customers and in all the major languages for countries where GW has significant business (e.g., France, Spain, Germany, Netherlands and any other country with their own GW website). In my view GW's big screw-up is in making this seem like a niche product for which there is limited interest. These are essential gaming rules for people using the flyers in the book and should be treated that way in marketing it. Now they've managed to perturb the end users and independent retailers alike.
However, I don't mind waiting an extra couple weeks for my book thanks to the $25 gift voucher they sent me as an apology. In fact, they can mess up all my orders for that kind of rebate every time.
Sisters of Battle, who also got the WD treatment, get nothing!
For nearly 10 years every single time a model range got a new army book and or any new models we had to hear from Dark Eldar players whining that they haven't had a revision (for the record, I own an original DE army and never complained like so many others). Ever since the Dark Eldar finally got their new models and Codex it's always either the Templars or SoB whining with every release. The model range mentioned in the complaining eventually changes over time, but the obsessive gamer behavior pointing out that a certain model range has still not been revised never does. Yes, we know SoB were not updated with this month's release or last month's or the month before that nor did they get anything new at all. Yes we noticed, but thanks for pointing it out once again because who knows, someone might forget for a second. .
Yes and no
You have also got to take into account that not only do some armies receive nothing from the latest release - when it would have been easy to take them from the recent Forgeworld book (or make that completly unofficial) but that we also have Space Marine players "whining" (as you put it) that they do get enough or good ones etc etc. which rubs salt in the wound.
As very many people have said - this is a compeltely missed opportunity to patch a huge and obvious hole in the rules.
Sisters of Battle, who also got the WD treatment, get nothing!
For nearly 10 years every single time a model range got a new army book and or any new models we had to hear from Dark Eldar players whining that they haven't had a revision (for the record, I own an original DE army and never complained like so many others). Ever since the Dark Eldar finally got their new models and Codex it's always either the Templars or SoB whining with every release. The model range mentioned in the complaining eventually changes over time, but the obsessive gamer behavior pointing out that a certain model range has still not been revised never does. Yes, we know SoB were not updated with this month's release or last month's or the month before that nor did they get anything new at all. Yes we noticed, but thanks for pointing it out once again because who knows, someone might forget for a second.
I beg to differ. Where do you get off labeling players of particular faction as whiners and obsessive gamers? I only want fair treatment for an army that haven't received it in GW's recent "Death from the Skies" release.
Every faction has a flyer, including Sisters of Battle. It's a major oversight for Game Workshop to provide Fighter Ace for everyone except Sisters of Battle. Sisters of Battle do have a flyer. They can take Avenger Strike Fighter as a Heavy Support choice. And before you point out they don't have a flyer in non-FW book, let me point neither does Space Wolves. Space Wolves don't have access to Storm Raven or Storm Talon, but they do have access to FW Storm Eagle. Space Wolves also have Fighter Ace. We all know Games Workshop is prone to making errors in their rule supplements. Perhaps this is another boo boo on their part.
I think it's far more likely that it has a more ominous meaning for the sisters... GW have said that they won't ever 'Squat' another 40k army - so we know there won't be any danger of every SoB suddenly getting wiped out in a warp storm or something. Instead we are far more likely to see 'death by omission', where an army just doesn't get any releases, any new notifications, and ends up like some kind of drunken bum sat in a cardboard box down an alley, mumbling incoherently about the 'good old days' of metal miniatures and faith points.
Not saying this is the case here (and I'm hoping it isn't!) but the sisters will be missing from that book either through someone's oversight, or deliberately.
Shandara wrote: Another reason is that the SoB rely on Imperial Navy for air support, they don't have their own airforce.
So does the Imperial Guard, but they have two flyers in their codex. There is no reason for them not to have transport from Naval ships to the surface. If the Sisters were going to have the Valkyrie as some have said repeatedly they they would already have it.
Shandara wrote: Another reason is that the SoB rely on Imperial Navy for air support, they don't have their own airforce.
So does the Imperial Guard, but they have two flyers in their codex.
I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.
GW doesn't stick to fluff, they could have literally pulled something out of their asses for Sisters if they really had to, because they do it for Marines all the god damn time, and just chose not to.
Sidstyler wrote: I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.
Though, to be fair, variant Land Raiders make more sense than SM UFOs...
Technically the Imperial Guard should have none and "imperial" air cover is that requested and provided by the Navy and hence is normally only avaialble as "allies" for all Imperial forces - Astartes, Sororitas, Guard, Mechanicum, etc.
The Eldar and Tau have intergrated aerial elements to the military machine and which two armies have no flyers?
Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense
But as said - Marines have to be keep being given new toys, even if it rewrites the fluff to suit, at the expense of others.............- (disclaimer I also play marines)
Mr Morden wrote: Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense
Flyrants and Harpies?
Wouldn'tt enven need that just let the gargoyal swarm be a flyer then it would be interesting. That is how I always inveisioned it the Gargoyals swarming the air and just swarming all over the enemy aircraft like flies on poo.
Sidstyler wrote: I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.
You could say that about anything and everything introduced after 2nd Edition. For every army.
Mr Morden wrote: Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense
Flyrants and Harpies?
Wouldn'tt enven need that just let the gargoyal swarm be a flyer then it would be interesting. That is how I always inveisioned it the Gargoyals swarming the air and just swarming all over the enemy aircraft like flies on poo.
Reading some of the "fluff" for the SM Stormtalon, they were used to "hold great swarming broods of Gargoyles and Harpies at bay".... Should only make sense that swarming broods of gargoyles and harpies could be used to keep swarming squadrons of Stormtalons and Stormravens at bay.... lol
Sidstyler wrote: I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.
You could say that about anything and everything introduced after 2nd Edition. For every army.
No not at all.
Space Marines and Flyers is a special Case. In the past the role of their sole gunship had been clearly defined - suddenly new rules start being worked on and from nothing a whole load of flyers appear - for the Marines. I understand the need to keep all the marine players happy and I am one of them, however its still resulted in crap (IMO) models and massive retcon to the fluff, so I am not happy............
Portable air defences make sense for the Astartes (*) but they have always relied on either Navy air cover or simply punching through via drop pod/Thunderhawk/ arriving swiftly / secretely to achieve their mission.
(*) Yes, all this stuff is in Imperial Aeronautica - but sadly because some people "whine" about Forgeworld - many people are unable to use it. However if all the Marine stuff was just in that book and the other armies had got stuff I am sure the complaints would have been more vocal.................
Mr Morden wrote: ...however its still resulted in crap (IMO) models and massive retcon to the fluff, so I am not happy............
Wow. You must be livid with Forge World then.
Mr Morden wrote: (*) Yes, all this stuff is in Imperial Aeronautica - but sadly because some people "whine" about Forgeworld - many people are unable to use it.
Or... not?
Let me see if I get this straight. You're complaining that GW dared include fliers for SM but you're also complaining that "whiners" are preventing FW (non-canon) kits and rules from being used?
No I am in general happy with Forge World - can you specify where you have a problem with their fluff as opposed to the massive rewrites to include new Marine flyers.
I am saying that the opportunity was there for ALL armies to be updated via either the FW book or the new "death from Above book".
However neither has been achieved:
Imperial Aeronautica is often not usable as many people whine its FW and so won't allow it be that casual play or tournaments. It should have been a straight rules addiiton akin to a Codex. Its not so FAIL
Death from the Skies only reposts previous rules and so only really covers Marines and Orks. The opportunity was there to have a flyer/AA platform from all armies - TAKEN DIRECTLY from Imperial Aeronautica, but instead they decided not to. So FAIL.
I'm hating this book. Space Wolves primary, no damn flyer at the codex level. Screw FW, I don't want to pay to ship over resin models with dodgy rules and the general trend of people saying no against them.
I'm also starting a SoB army (yea, I'm nuts) and having zero flyer defense, again, sucks.
I'd trade the Doomscythes from Necrons army to gladly take something the other two.
Hrmph.
(Plus, I was hoping for at least the Stormtalon to make a plasticard ARWING for my Star Wo... Space Wolves)
Sidstyler wrote: I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.
You could say that about anything and everything introduced after 2nd Edition. For every army.
I don't like the fact they made the space marines warrior monks they should have stayed criminals forced into service like they were originally designed back in the late 80's!
Things change over time - we get new kits, new vehicles, new characters, etc. now that GW is going to release a model for everything in their codex/army book and add on to their existing lines. I'm sure the flyer will be in the space marine codex due out later this year.
To be fair a lot of FW fluff is too dumb to function. Their technical specifications for vehicles are laughably wrong and a lot of other stuff just plain doesn't make sense.
Technically the Imperial Guard should have none and "imperial" air cover is that requested and provided by the Navy and hence is normally only avaialble as "allies" for all Imperial forces - Astartes, Sororitas, Guard, Mechanicum, etc.
The Eldar and Tau have intergrated aerial elements to the military machine and which two armies have no flyers?
Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense
But as said - Marines have to be keep being given new toys, even if it rewrites the fluff to suit, at the expense of others.............- (disclaimer I also play marines)
The IG should have none? Sorry but even our armies today have air cover provided by Apaches/Black Hawks etc etc. and they're not piloted by Navy or Air Force. What's wrong with the IG having flyers?
Space Marines are supposed to be the Emperor's Finest. Why wouldn't they have lots of cool toys? Admittedly I'd have gone a different way with the Storm Talon design. That said, GW has come a long way from what they were so why shouldn't they make more miniatures to fill in the gaps so to speak.
Technically the Imperial Guard should have none and "imperial" air cover is that requested and provided by the Navy and hence is normally only avaialble as "allies" for all Imperial forces - Astartes, Sororitas, Guard, Mechanicum, etc.
The Eldar and Tau have intergrated aerial elements to the military machine and which two armies have no flyers?
Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense
But as said - Marines have to be keep being given new toys, even if it rewrites the fluff to suit, at the expense of others.............- (disclaimer I also play marines)
The IG should have none? Sorry but even our armies today have air cover provided by Apaches/Black Hawks etc etc. and they're not piloted by Navy or Air Force. What's wrong with the IG having flyers?
Space Marines are supposed to be the Emperor's Finest. Why wouldn't they have lots of cool toys? Admittedly I'd have gone a different way with the Storm Talon design. That said, GW has come a long way from what they were so why shouldn't they make more miniatures to fill in the gaps so to speak.
There's supposed to be a real divide between the Guard, Navy and Space Marines etc.. so that no one party has a full force capable of everything. Because of the Horus Heresy and so on.
Sidstyler wrote: I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.
You could say that about anything and everything introduced after 2nd Edition. For every army.
I don't like the fact they made the space marines warrior monks they should have stayed criminals forced into service like they were originally designed back in the late 80's!
Things change over time - we get new kits, new vehicles, new characters, etc. now that GW is going to release a model for everything in their codex/army book and add on to their existing lines. I'm sure the flyer will be in the space marine codex due out later this year.
I'm pretty sure there still ARE criminals forced into SM service. Like servitors.And also, you can still be a monk even if you were a criminal before.
Technically the Imperial Guard should have none and "imperial" air cover is that requested and provided by the Navy and hence is normally only avaialble as "allies" for all Imperial forces - Astartes, Sororitas, Guard, Mechanicum, etc.
The Eldar and Tau have intergrated aerial elements to the military machine and which two armies have no flyers?
Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense
But as said - Marines have to be keep being given new toys, even if it rewrites the fluff to suit, at the expense of others.............- (disclaimer I also play marines)
The IG should have none? Sorry but even our armies today have air cover provided by Apaches/Black Hawks etc etc. and they're not piloted by Navy or Air Force. What's wrong with the IG having flyers?
Space Marines are supposed to be the Emperor's Finest. Why wouldn't they have lots of cool toys? Admittedly I'd have gone a different way with the Storm Talon design. That said, GW has come a long way from what they were so why shouldn't they make more miniatures to fill in the gaps so to speak.
There's supposed to be a real divide between the Guard, Navy and Space Marines etc.. so that no one party has a full force capable of everything. Because of the Horus Heresy and so on.
That doesn't necessarily mean they won't use aircraft.
The IG should have none? Sorry but even our armies today have air cover provided by Apaches/Black Hawks etc etc. and they're not piloted by Navy or Air Force. What's wrong with the IG having flyers? Space Marines are supposed to be the Emperor's Finest. Why wouldn't they have lots of cool toys? Admittedly I'd have gone a different way with the Storm Talon design. That said, GW has come a long way from what they were so why shouldn't they make more miniatures to fill in the gaps so to speak.
Short answer - read the actual fluff with regards to this - its NOT a modern intergrated army - its several different independant organisations that sometimes fight together and often have problems doing so. There is a clear in universe reason for this as below:
There's supposed to be a real divide between the Guard, Navy and Space Marines etc.. so that no one party has a full force capable of everything. Because of the Horus Heresy and so on.
That doesn't necessarily mean they won't use aircraft.
Actually it does - its the whole point of the divide - there are occassional exceptions for specific regiments but othewise the Guard HAS to rely on the Navy for air support, and the Navy does not always play well with the Guard or indeed anyone else. The Astartes tend to punch throughair defenses with Drop Pods and Thuderhawks (or just teleport) but thats it.....they may attempt to task the Navy to clear the skies over a target or just draw air cover off.
For an out of Universe similarity see the Starship Troopers film with the Mobile Infantry and the Fleet - "one does the flying, the other does the dying" as its put - not actually true but its clear that the Fleet have all the aircraft - same as in 40k.
I dislike how it was handled, though. They should have had ample copies available for the stores to order and stock them. I am not a fan of Direct Order products that have game altering rules (points to some fliers changed, some rules tweeked, etc) not being readily available to the Brick and Mortar stores on day 1.
Pacific wrote: I think it's far more likely that it has a more ominous meaning for the sisters... GW have said that they won't ever 'Squat' another 40k army - so we know there won't be any danger of every SoB suddenly getting wiped out in a warp storm or something. Instead we are far more likely to see 'death by omission', where an army just doesn't get any releases, any new notifications, and ends up like some kind of drunken bum sat in a cardboard box down an alley, mumbling incoherently about the 'good old days' of metal miniatures and faith points.
Not saying this is the case here (and I'm hoping it isn't!) but the sisters will be missing from that book either through someone's oversight, or deliberately.
It is the old problem that action begets motivation and not the other way around. GW does nothing with sisters because they are not overly popular and don't sell well, but their popularity and sales aren't going to change if you just keep offering the same old stuff for them either. They need to make an investment in the army with a solid codex, some new plastic kits and other options that would enable the army to be a real challanger in the ring and enable the army to stop looking so cookie cutter. Otherwise interest will never change.
I dislike how it was handled, though. They should have had ample copies available for the stores to order and stock them. I am not a fan of Direct Order products that have game altering rules (points to some fliers changed, some rules tweeked, etc) not being readily available to the Brick and Mortar stores on day 1.
I agree with you.
But day 1? I'm not sure if we are ever getting it at all. Supposing GW does another wave of product, and ships another 800 to the US, do you really think they won't do exactly what they did this time? It will go up on sale on the website, and tragically none will be available for stores to scramble for on the monday after.
And those posts are VERY recent.
