So if boyz do go up to 32mm, so anyone who owns AOBR boys screwed if they want to play where people care about the base size change? AOBR boys have that little slot in the base since their monopose models...
Even outside of that buying and replacing 200+ models sounds aweful
Gretchen unit size: go big, or go min for CP farming? I have a little over 30 so they can go as a big mob or 3 min mobs.
I can see some clever tricks using min grotz. They're small enough where true LOS can keep them hidden, but a 30 "strong" mob can be a decent screen with a Boss or runt herd.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Gretchen unit size: go big, or go min for CP farming? I have a little over 30 so they can go as a big mob or 3 min mobs.
I can see some clever tricks using min grotz. They're small enough where true LOS can keep them hidden, but a 30 "strong" mob can be a decent screen with a Boss or runt herd.
I tend to do both. depends on the size of the game and the rest of the army. Early on this edition they have been money for me. Stopping deepstrike, preventing any meaningful first turn charge by the enemy taking objectives. Typically I'll put 30 in front with another 10 or 20 in the back to insure no possible landing zones for the enemy in my deployment Zone and free up my other units to go fight.
Try both options and find the one that works for you better.
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Billagio wrote: So if boyz do go up to 32mm, so anyone who owns AOBR boys screwed if they want to play where people care about the base size change? AOBR boys have that little slot in the base since their monopose models...
Even outside of that buying and replacing 200+ models sounds aweful
So with the new previews on the Warhammer Community page covering stratagems for the new Killteam box set, does anyone else think there might be a possibility we could see some new stratagems that might make it into the codex? A couple of the Admech Stratagems they showed are straight out of their codex, so we might see some new stuff. We should see the ork preview soon, either Monday or Wednesday depending if they're going to be posting the previews on weekends or not.
I'm pretty excited for Ork Kill team. I have so many different Nob models that they might actually become useful. And a whole Grot Kommando list just seems super fun if not ridiculous.
Billagio wrote: So if boyz do go up to 32mm, so anyone who owns AOBR boys screwed if they want to play where people care about the base size change? AOBR boys have that little slot in the base since their monopose models...
Even outside of that buying and replacing 200+ models sounds aweful
By Gork and Mork I hope we don't go up to 32mm for boyz. For some units, like nobz, lootas, or other specialists, sure, but I have 100 zogging boyz and I do not want to spend a whole evening rebasing and regluing them all.
Billagio wrote: So if boyz do go up to 32mm, so anyone who owns AOBR boys screwed if they want to play where people care about the base size change? AOBR boys have that little slot in the base since their monopose models...
Even outside of that buying and replacing 200+ models sounds aweful
Plz No!
Its always been fine to use models with the base they came with, so I don't think it will be an issue.
So I just won a game...I think I completely tricked him though to win. He showed up with a bunch of harlequins with good CC ability and lots of rapid fire weapons....I showed up with 3 Battlewagonz with Ard Topz, 2 Trukkz with Tankbustas, a Dreadnought and 5 Mek Gunz. we called the game at the end of turn 2 because it was clearly going my way and we were running short on time.
Some take aways for these under used units (not mek gunz)
Battlewagons: NOT TOUGH. Now I know harlequins tend to be more crazy then most with their special rules but holy crap those Battlewagons were not tough. T8 with a 4+ save basically equates to T8 with no save because almost every gun that can hurt the wagon has at least -3 AP which ignores my save completely. This thing desperately needs a 2+ save, maybe give it a 3+ and the ard top upgrades it to T8 2+ save.
Next, Deff Rollas DONT DO ANYTHING. This thing averages 5 S8 hits a CC turn....not bad, except that its a 180pt model and those attacks are only -2 AP and 1 damage each. This things needs 2 modes, 6D3 attacks at S6 -1 AP 1Dmg or 6 attacks at S8 -2 AP 3dmg flat.
Trukkz....well they are fast, my opponent kind of forgot about them and didn't shoot at them at all, probably his biggest tactical error, because he could have easily killed my Tankbustas inside. They were worth it in the sense that my opponent was to focused on my Wagonz which realistically didn't do anything, to kill them.
Tankbustas....as ever good vs vehicles, crap vs anything else.
Dreadnought......he needs about twice as many attacks or 50% more attacks and double his movement speed. he is soooooo slow!
SemperMortis wrote: So I just won a game...I think I completely tricked him though to win. He showed up with a bunch of harlequins with good CC ability and lots of rapid fire weapons....I showed up with 3 Battlewagonz with Ard Topz, 2 Trukkz with Tankbustas, a Dreadnought and 5 Mek Gunz. we called the game at the end of turn 2 because it was clearly going my way and we were running short on time.
Some take aways for these under used units (not mek gunz)
Battlewagons: NOT TOUGH. Now I know harlequins tend to be more crazy then most with their special rules but holy crap those Battlewagons were not tough. T8 with a 4+ save basically equates to T8 with no save because almost every gun that can hurt the wagon has at least -3 AP which ignores my save completely. This thing desperately needs a 2+ save, maybe give it a 3+ and the ard top upgrades it to T8 2+ save.
Next, Deff Rollas DONT DO ANYTHING. This thing averages 5 S8 hits a CC turn....not bad, except that its a 180pt model and those attacks are only -2 AP and 1 damage each. This things needs 2 modes, 6D3 attacks at S6 -1 AP 1Dmg or 6 attacks at S8 -2 AP 3dmg flat.
Trukkz....well they are fast, my opponent kind of forgot about them and didn't shoot at them at all, probably his biggest tactical error, because he could have easily killed my Tankbustas inside. They were worth it in the sense that my opponent was to focused on my Wagonz which realistically didn't do anything, to kill them.
Tankbustas....as ever good vs vehicles, crap vs anything else.
Dreadnought......he needs about twice as many attacks or 50% more attacks and double his movement speed. he is soooooo slow!
I can't believe I'm saying this but I 100% agree with you on every point here. The whole idea of our codex is "quantity over quality", which I'm fine with, but the biggest single error is that all our units are 100% overpriced so we don't even have the quantity necessary to win.
Also, grats on your win. I had a pretty good run when every army was on indexes, but ever since everyone else got their codexes I've been on a dry spell.
Battlewagons: NOT TOUGH. Now I know harlequins tend to be more crazy then most with their special rules but holy crap those Battlewagons were not tough. T8 with a 4+ save basically equates to T8 with no save because almost every gun that can hurt the wagon has at least -3 AP which ignores my save completely. This thing desperately needs a 2+ save, maybe give it a 3+ and the ard top upgrades it to T8 2+ save.
This point about battlewagonz and weapons this edition really makes me question why GW up'd points costs on vehicles. Maybe they did not think all shooting would be damn near auto hit rerolling all fails at first who knows. But you can't expect people to missthis edition and then you also have no save, that is no fun on an expensive model. The battlewagon needs the trukk ramshackle rule on a 5+ to compete and remain orky at 180 points.
I have found that battlewagons do make for great distraction units...possibly relying a little on players who aren't super-familiar with them, but, if nothing else, they can attract a lot of your opponents shooting on turn 1, for <200 points...sure, it is a bit a of a points sacrifice...but it's hopefully saving all your boyz from being shot at turn 1 at least?
ZoBo wrote: I have found that battlewagons do make for great distraction units...possibly relying a little on players who aren't super-familiar with them, but, if nothing else, they can attract a lot of your opponents shooting on turn 1, for <200 points...sure, it is a bit a of a points sacrifice...but it's hopefully saving all your boyz from being shot at turn 1 at least?
Except guns used to destroy bw are guns not suited to boyz kill. You think he will use heavy bolters to shoot bw? No he uses lascannons who would have been forced to shoot at boyz. You have just made his life easier by providing optimal targets for all of his guns
Kommandos and stormboyz have really helped my games. My friends and the local tournaments use the ITC Champions Missions, which I really enjoy. In my 2000 point games I use about 70 boyz, 35 Kommandos, and 40-50 stormboyz supported by 8-11 characters. I’ve played around a lot with the ratio of boyz to Kommandos to stormboyz and which characters to bring.
Here’s my 1500 point list for the next local tournament:
Battalion
Warboss (power Klaw)
Warboss (power Klaw)
Big Mek with KFF (Headwoppa’s killchoppa)
19 Boyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with powerklaw)
19 Boyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with big choppa)
11 Boyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with big choppa)
Painboy (Killsaw and grot orderly)
Nob with Waaagh! Banner
Vanguard
Weirdboy (da jump)
Weirdboy (da jump)
9 Kommandos (Slugga Choppa, 2x Burna, nob with Big Choppa)
9 Kommandos (Slugga Choppa, 2x Burna, nob with Big Choppa)
9 Kommandos (Slugga Choppa, 2x Burna, nob with Big Choppa)
Outrider
Big Mek on Warbike with KFF (powerklaw)
19 Stormboyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with Big Choppa)
9 Stormboyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with Big Choppa)
9 Stormboyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with Big Choppa)
Battlewagons: NOT TOUGH. Now I know harlequins tend to be more crazy then most with their special rules but holy crap those Battlewagons were not tough. T8 with a 4+ save basically equates to T8 with no save because almost every gun that can hurt the wagon has at least -3 AP which ignores my save completely. This thing desperately needs a 2+ save, maybe give it a 3+ and the ard top upgrades it to T8 2+ save.
This point about battlewagonz and weapons this edition really makes me question why GW up'd points costs on vehicles. Maybe they did not think all shooting would be damn near auto hit rerolling all fails at first who knows. But you can't expect people to missthis edition and then you also have no save, that is no fun on an expensive model. The battlewagon needs the trukk ramshackle rule on a 5+ to compete and remain orky at 180 points.
Agreed. I miss the 90 point BWs from our 5th edition codex so we could do a proppa BW blitz. Was one of my favorite lists, I loved deploying 4-5 models and having it turn into ~100 by turn 2. BWs right now would be fairly durable if there wasnt so much re roll shenanigans with shooting for half or more of the armies.
I like ork vehicles having more wounds but a worse armor save for thematic reasons, but I think that when assigning points GW overestimated the value of those additional wounds by quite a bit. IIRC a Battlewagon takes about 1.3 more Lascannon hits to destroy than a Rhino.
Of course KFF synergy helps a lot with this. A Battlewagon protected by a KFF is as tough against Lascannons as a land raider, but a Big Mek with a KFF definitely adds to the cost.
Maybe they'll bring back the extra armor upgrade, but make it increase the armor save to 3+? That combined with a significant points reduction would be good.
I agree that I'd like to see Ramshackle put on Battlewagons. I'd actually like to see it on all ork vehicles.
I wouldn't mind seeing them split the Battlewagon into the normal Battlewagon which would have more restricted wargear choices and be a Dedicated Transport, and a Kustom Battlewagon which would have all the fancy options and remain a Heavy Support choice.
I really do hope they improve the Battlewagon, as it is one of my favorite units that the orks have. An ability to fire twice similar to LRBTs and Fire Prisms has been suggested in the past (usually with the assumption that ork shooting was going to get buffs and price drops). What would you guys think about instead of firing twice that Battlewagon and its passengers had the ability to fire out of combat like Squiggoths can? Slapping every gun and a Deffrolla on a Battlewagon and then rolling back and forth over my opponent while the Flash Gitz in the back are shooting wildly in every direction has real appeal to me.
I like ork vehicles having more wounds but a worse armor save for thematic reasons, but I think that when assigning points GW overestimated the value of those additional wounds by quite a bit. IIRC a Battlewagon takes about 1.3 more Lascannon hits to destroy than a Rhino.
Of course KFF synergy helps a lot with this. A Battlewagon protected by a KFF is as tough against Lascannons as a land raider, but a Big Mek with a KFF definitely adds to the cost.
Maybe they'll bring back the extra armor upgrade, but make it increase the armor save to 3+? That combined with a significant points reduction would be good.
I agree that I'd like to see Ramshackle put on Battlewagons. I'd actually like to see it on all ork vehicles.
I wouldn't mind seeing them split the Battlewagon into the normal Battlewagon which would have more restricted wargear choices and be a Dedicated Transport, and a Kustom Battlewagon which would have all the fancy options and remain a Heavy Support choice.
I really do hope they improve the Battlewagon, as it is one of my favorite units that the orks have. An ability to fire twice similar to LRBTs and Fire Prisms has been suggested in the past (usually with the assumption that ork shooting was going to get buffs and price drops). What would you guys think about instead of firing twice that Battlewagon and its passengers had the ability to fire out of combat like Squiggoths can? Slapping every gun and a Deffrolla on a Battlewagon and then rolling back and forth over my opponent while the Flash Gitz in the back are shooting wildly in every direction has real appeal to me.
I know we are talking wishlisting now but any upgrade leading to an improvement would be an auto take (Improved Armor for example). I think lowering the points costs might just be a bandaid. They really need to add ramshackle (at 5+) to the core rules as well as allowing occupants to fire full ballistic while the wagon moves. As far as making a Dakkawagon viable, I really think they just need to open up the weapon capacity on it, combined with making some of our weapons a little cheaper. But being allowed to buy like ten to fifteen big shootas at 3 or 4 points each might be a nice way to make it a dakkaplatform. Besides, seeing the creative Mekz shoving fifteen Big Shootas on a battlewagon is something that really needs to be seen. I really think tabletop rules really hinder the brand of madness most ork players would like to unleash. I'd be using sprue and diamond plate to stuff an extra platform on top of my battlewagon to fit all the Big Shootas GW would let me fit. Honestly, just declaring that my battlewagon is going to fire at something then picking up fourtyfive dice to determine the results would be enough that I'd do that every game.
The trukk needs the same treatment, improve Ramshackle to 5+, let us put like five to eight big shootas at 3 points each on the trukk and suddenly it is reasonable firesupport, and the model itself would be a sight to behold.
I agree that I don't want any auto-take upgrades. That would all depend on how much the base wagon and how much the upgrade cost.
Rismonite wrote: [As far as making a Dakkawagon viable, I really think they just need to open up the weapon capacity on it, combined with making some of our weapons a little cheaper. But being allowed to buy like ten to fifteen big shootas at 3 or 4 points each might be a nice way to make it a dakkaplatform. Besides, seeing the creative Mekz shoving fifteen Big Shootas on a battlewagon is something that really needs to be seen. I really think tabletop rules really hinder the brand of madness most ork players would like to unleash. I'd be using sprue and diamond plate to stuff an extra platform on top of my battlewagon to fit all the Big Shootas GW would let me fit.
One of the thing's I liked the most about the old Kustom Stompa rules was the Deff-Arsenal. Basically Forge World just said that we could model as many weapons as we wantedcould fit on the torso of the Stompa and they generated 3d6 S9 shots plus d3 Supa-Rokkits every turn. It was amazing. I wouldn't mind seeing every large ork vehicle get their own version of the Deff-Arsenal, in addition to Ramshackle and an increased chance to explode.
Failing Deff-Arsenals for everything, I'd really like Forge World to come out with rules for a Battlewagon that let me put on a Big Gun, a Killkannon and a Supa-Kannon all at the same time but with zero transport capacity.
Speaking of up-gunned Trukks, I'm annoyed that Forge World forgot to include Gun Trukks in their Index. They sell Trukks, they sell the guns to put in them, why no Gun Trukks? It's not as bad as forgetting the Mega Dread but it was still pretty bad, IMO. That said, without a fix from GW for Big Gunz at BS 5+ I'm sure Gun Trukks would have been terrible.
I'm really hoping we get rules for looting vehicles in the codex. Not just because I want to loot other faction's vehicles, but also because they could be used to represent Ork vehicles that that don't have rules like Gun Wagons. The Big Trakk does an okay job of this, but it would be nice to get a bunch of different data sheets to represent different things rather than try to make one unit work for everything.
Ive given up hope for fw a long time ago, despite that new necron mini, they give a grots a$$ about anything that isn't 30k or imperium ( that includes necromunda minis). Fw is full of space marine fanboys, its best to understand that, the only people that gets Fw to care about anything else is gw, and they pretty much twisted fws arm just to get them to put out the indexes.
But i'd like it if those 'stratagems' make it into the codex. Seems quite useful to me... and i love the idea of grabbing a nearby grot for meat shield
the grot thin is interesting; it says all shots are resolved against the grot squad. Does that mean if you put it out of LOS, then the shooting attack will fizzle unless it has the no LOS special rules?
davou wrote: the grot thin is interesting; it says all shots are resolved against the grot squad. Does that mean if you put it out of LOS, then the shooting attack will fizzle unless it has the no LOS special rules?
At least not in 8th. Once you've declared what you are shooting at, LOS is never checked again. You have a similar interaction with death shroud terminators, they will get hit by any shot they take for Moration, even if they are out of LOS
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Gruxz wrote: Yes I like the grot strat too, but 2cp seems a bit much
Considering how easy orks can get CP with gretchin and boyz, 2CP seems fair. If the codex is well balanced, I fully expect every ork army to have at least 13 CP, maybe with some way to regain them.
Your gretchin could screen for both melee and ranger. Plunk down a meatshield in front of lootas, or flashgitz, or nobs or whatever. It also means you could use Da Jump to keep your screen in front of deepstrikers, IF this stratagem is also in the codex.
The grot stratagem would be completely useless in 40k. You resolve the attack against the grot and after the grot has died you take the shots as normal.
So the 2CP stratagem protects a single model for what, 1 or 2 shots before the grot dies and you're back to taking shots as normal? Meh.
Perhaps if the 40k equivalent gave meant we could use a squad of grots to protect another squad, then we'd be talking but even then we kinda have that already with Ammo Runts/Grot Oilers etc
I think it would apply to the units involved. For instance a mob of lootas and a mob of grots within 2 inches.. after all you sacrifice the grots and 2 cp.
I wonder if this backup plan, paired with 'dakka dakka dakka' might make lootas viable again.
Edit: make that a mob of 30 grots and those lootas are pretty hard to get rid of ... expensive but funny
I actually think lootas are still good. Iuse them as backfield units behind the mekguns to prevent ds and have some nice long range shots. D2 damage is gold
Both these stratagems show thinking in the right direction. This is clearly a superior version of the current Dakka Dakka Dakka, and gives grots a purpose other than slot fillers.
Maybe, if we all pray to Gork and Mork, these might be stratagems in the actual codex.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The grot stratagem would be completely useless in 40k. You resolve the attack against the grot and after the grot has died you take the shots as normal.
So the 2CP stratagem protects a single model for what, 1 or 2 shots before the grot dies and you're back to taking shots as normal? Meh.
Perhaps if the 40k equivalent gave meant we could use a squad of grots to protect another squad, then we'd be talking but even then we kinda have that already with Ammo Runts/Grot Oilers etc
You obviously would be redirecting the shooting of an entire unit onto a unit of gretchin instead of a single one, which is pretty much the same as "pick a unit that can't shoot this turn". Unless my memory fails me, the vast majority of units don't have ammo runts or grot oilers.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The grot stratagem would be completely useless in 40k. You resolve the attack against the grot and after the grot has died you take the shots as normal.
So the 2CP stratagem protects a single model for what, 1 or 2 shots before the grot dies and you're back to taking shots as normal? Meh.
Perhaps if the 40k equivalent gave meant we could use a squad of grots to protect another squad, then we'd be talking but even then we kinda have that already with Ammo Runts/Grot Oilers etc
You obviously would be redirecting the shooting of an entire unit onto a unit of gretchin instead of a single one, which is pretty much the same as "pick a unit that can't shoot this turn". Unless my memory fails me, the vast majority of units don't have ammo runts or grot oilers.
Which is why this stratagem costs 2cp. Even a min squad of grots is a huge speedbump to chew through. If positioned well, one squad of grots could cover multiple other squads. I like this because it is interactive on two levels. For one, we have to decide which squad to use this stratagem on, and it also makes the opponent try to predict which squad we'd want to protect the most, and which guns to use on which squad. This is exactly the kind of stratagem we need.
Granted, we can't rely on this one stratagem for durability- we still need a drastic bumping up in that department.
Here's hoping these stratagems make it into the codex in a good format. Dakka Dakka Dakka should always have been a unit gets to shoot again and 2 CP for that is reasonable presuming our points costs get significantly reduced. As things stand at the moment I would begrudge paying 2 CP because our shooting is so awful. Flash Gitz at a reasonable cost with that stratagem and their innate Flashiest Gitz (or something similar) ability could be fun with Badrukk for the re-rolls. The same goes for Dakkjets, which would still fill a similar role but would still be better at it.
Grot shield stratagem would be excellent, they've already got good utility as road blocks and speed bumps and this would increase their utility many times over. Battalion with Nobz squads with ammo runts filled out with even more cannon fodder Grots for Troops would be interesting. A Battlewagon with Meganobz filling the remaining capacity with Grots. The list goes on, that stratagem would make a single unit of something dangerous much more survivable. Obviously it will pair well with Greentide also, which I can easily see continuing to be our post-codex go-to list.
As for these stratagems in Kill Team, which I'm very much looking forward to, I think they will still be useful for keeping key players in our Kill Teams alive and dishing out damage but without a codex we're still coming out of the starting blocks so much later than our opponents that I don't think we'll have much of an impact. Excluding, of course, a Kill Team mini-Greentide which will no doubt work to some degree.
Even that isn't true. Nobz, Flash Gits and Badruk are the only models with access to ammo runts. Big Meks and Meks are the only ones with grot oilers and the regular pain boyz is the only model that can have a grot orderly. That isn't even half our characters and you surely have other important units besides foot nobz and flash gits.
I'm not going to do this with you Jidmah. Perhaps the other half of those characters a)don't provide protective buffs and b)aren't going to exist in the codex because they don't have a model?
Either way, I see very few opportunities where I'd want to spend 2 CP to give one unit the protection of 30 grots (at the start of the enemy shooting phase and lasting only till the end of that phase).
Reading through fb comment section from the warhammer page, it looks like there is something coming from the grots. And maybe some plastic kommandos, as gw wants kill team to be played with plastic kits... interesting stuff imo
I like that stratagem and would use it if we get something like that. I'd be happy to take both stratagems. Please let my flash gits shoot three times a turn. (depending on the wording possibly 4 times a turn.)
The grots one would be good for protecting back field units like lootas for a turn but might hurt me to use if I need those grots to score an objective. The will also likely cost me another few command points to keep them from taking Morale if they aren't all killed and can be of future use in the next turn or two. Still, it would be cool. I'd protect them with a KFF and pain boy if the opportunity presented itself.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not going to do this with you Jidmah. Perhaps the other half of those characters a)don't provide protective buffs and b)aren't going to exist in the codex because they don't have a model?
Either way, I see very few opportunities where I'd want to spend 2 CP to give one unit the protection of 30 grots (at the start of the enemy shooting phase and lasting only till the end of that phase).
I think it's fantastic. There are so many terrifying shooty weapons that 30 garbage wounds can completely negate. Hell, that can absolutely save the life of key characters, expensive squads, what have you. It's a great stratagem that can be used very defensively.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not going to do this with you Jidmah. Perhaps the other half of those characters a)don't provide protective buffs and b)aren't going to exist in the codex because they don't have a model?
Either way, I see very few opportunities where I'd want to spend 2 CP to give one unit the protection of 30 grots (at the start of the enemy shooting phase and lasting only till the end of that phase).
I think it's fantastic. There are so many terrifying shooty weapons that 30 garbage wounds can completely negate. Hell, that can absolutely save the life of key characters, expensive squads, what have you. It's a great stratagem that can be used very defensively.
Why would a character need saving? lol. Snipers probably... Gitz.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not going to do this with you Jidmah. Perhaps the other half of those characters a)don't provide protective buffs and b)aren't going to exist in the codex because they don't have a model?
Either way, I see very few opportunities where I'd want to spend 2 CP to give one unit the protection of 30 grots (at the start of the enemy shooting phase and lasting only till the end of that phase).
I think it's fantastic. There are so many terrifying shooty weapons that 30 garbage wounds can completely negate. Hell, that can absolutely save the life of key characters, expensive squads, what have you. It's a great stratagem that can be used very defensively.
Why would a character need saving? lol. Snipers probably... Gitz.
Snipers, deep strikers, or just situations where you character is exposed. In my experience, grots are usually ignored for greater threats, so I can absolutely see grots being left alone for a character to be near. And hell, if this stratagem makes people more focused on shooting my grots beforehand, go right ahead! Not only that, but it drastically increases the durability of units by giving them 10-30 ablative wounds. Stick a squad of lootas in the backfield on an objective with a bunch of grots, bam, they're no longer the fragile squad they once were.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not going to do this with you Jidmah. Perhaps the other half of those characters a)don't provide protective buffs and b)aren't going to exist in the codex because they don't have a model?
Either way, I see very few opportunities where I'd want to spend 2 CP to give one unit the protection of 30 grots (at the start of the enemy shooting phase and lasting only till the end of that phase).
I think it's fantastic. There are so many terrifying shooty weapons that 30 garbage wounds can completely negate. Hell, that can absolutely save the life of key characters, expensive squads, what have you. It's a great stratagem that can be used very defensively.
It depends on how it is worded. If the effect only lasts for one attack, then not so much. But if it lasts an entire shooting phase, then Yes Please! Especially if you use the other model's toughness.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not going to do this with you Jidmah. Perhaps the other half of those characters a)don't provide protective buffs and b)aren't going to exist in the codex because they don't have a model?
Either way, I see very few opportunities where I'd want to spend 2 CP to give one unit the protection of 30 grots (at the start of the enemy shooting phase and lasting only till the end of that phase).
I think it's fantastic. There are so many terrifying shooty weapons that 30 garbage wounds can completely negate. Hell, that can absolutely save the life of key characters, expensive squads, what have you. It's a great stratagem that can be used very defensively.
It depends on how it is worded. If the effect only lasts for one attack, then not so much. But if it lasts an entire shooting phase, then Yes Please! Especially if you use the other model's toughness.
I wouldn't mind a 38 wound Gazzy...jes sayin.
If we could do it with a Stompa to make it 70 wounds it might be worth its points...
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not going to do this with you Jidmah. Perhaps the other half of those characters a)don't provide protective buffs and b)aren't going to exist in the codex because they don't have a model?
Either way, I see very few opportunities where I'd want to spend 2 CP to give one unit the protection of 30 grots (at the start of the enemy shooting phase and lasting only till the end of that phase).
Or you could just admit that your statement was hyperbe. I think I can both save us the trouble of listing all characters without gretchin that won't be going away with the codex no matter what happens and I think you would have to agree that they vastly outnumber the ones with gretchin at their side. The only character that is not OOP and still has additional gretchin are Badrukk, MA big mek and the mini-mek. On the other side is every named character, the warboss and the weird boy.
If you can't see the benefit of adding 30 wounds to a unit of lootaz, flash gits, nobz, burna boyz or tank bustas, I don't know what to say.
Jidmah wrote: Or you could just admit that your statement was hyperbe. I think I can both save us the trouble of listing all characters without gretchin that won't be going away with the codex no matter what happens and I think you would have to agree that they vastly outnumber the ones with gretchin at their side. The only character that is not OOP and still has additional gretchin are Badrukk, MA big mek and the mini-mek. On the other side is every named character, the warboss and the weird boy.
If you can't see the benefit of adding 30 wounds to a unit of lootaz, flash gits, nobz, burna boyz or tank bustas, I don't know what to say.
I don't need to admit anything. I said (if you bothered to read my post in it's entirety) "GENERALLY SPEAKING" which doesn't mean this is the rule for each and every character.
You forgot Painboy, I'm sure he's not OOP? There's also Big Mek with SAG and standard Big Mek.
Which named characters are competitive apart from Ghazzy again?
Ghazzy and other warbosses in my experience aren't too worried about snipers with their toughness. They have character protection (currently) so they have 30 - 90 ablative wounds anyway.
Flash Gits have Ammo Runts (that don't cost CP).
Nobz have Ammo Runts (that don't cost CP).
Why are you taking Burna Boyz?
Lootas generally sit in cover on an objective with KFF Mek proection who sits healing KMKs.
Foot slogging Tank Bustas I can see value for this stratagem. Of course I think the value of a Tank Bustas in a Trukk is far greater than foot slogging because you can actually get to your intended targets.
The pain boy with grot orderly is OOP. The new one does not have a separate grot orderly.
There's also Big Mek with SAG and standard Big Mek.
Standard big mek is OOP, but you're right about the SAG one.
Which named characters are competitive apart from Ghazzy again?
1) Moving goal posts. If you want to go by competitive characters, Warbosses, Weird boys and Waaagh! banners are in most ork lists and don't have gretchin, SAGs and mini-mek are not cometitive. So "in general" boils down to just KFF meks and painboyz, with KFF meks being OOP. 2) Zardsnark, Snikrot, Zagstrukk and Mad Dok Grotznik have all seen tournament play.
Ghazzy and other warbosses in my experience aren't too worried about snipers with their toughness. They have character protection (currently) so they have 30 - 90 ablative wounds anyway.
You are picking apart your own argument. Your argument was that the stratagem is useless because characters in general have gretchin as protection. Which is wrong for every character that is not Badrukk, a mek or a pain boy. So, yes, I agree that your original argument isn't a really good one, since you will rarely need to protect characters from shooting.
Flash Gits have Ammo Runts (that don't cost CP).
Nobz have Ammo Runts (that don't cost CP).
If your opponent sets his or her mind to it, they will plow through those ammo runts. A knight with twin avenger gatling cannons can kill an entire unit of 10 nobz/flash gits and 10 ammo runts, but will not be able to kill a whole lot more than 30 gretchin. A unit of gretchin will take an average of 54 shots from BS3 models to kill, no mater how awesome your weapon is. At 3 points per wound nothing will ever be point-efficient at killing them. You are basically making one unit immune to shooting for a turn, at the cost of 2CP and a gretchin unit-assuming your opponent actually bothers to shoot them instead of another target.
Why are you taking Burna Boyz?
We had this before, right? You claiming that you cannot ever assume that any unit gets better despite discussing a stratagem that can only exist in the new codex. You are really being negative for no reason here. When we have this stratagem burnas might be worth fielding, and then a screen of gretchin would be very good at protecting them, foot slogging or after being disembarked from their respective transports. For example, a battlewagon could hold 10 burnas and 10 gretchin, allowing the gretchin to take the heat after the enemy has fallen back from combat.
Lootas generally sit in cover on an objective with KFF Mek proection who sits healing KMKs.
If anything, lootaz sit on top of some terrain feature to have a good LoS so they can utilize their 48" without ever needing to move. A unit of gretchin is almost the same cost as a KFF mek, has objective secured and provides CP by filling battalions. I'd also like to point out that you just claimed a 5+/5++ save to be equivalent to 30 ablative wounds.
Foot slogging Tank Bustas I can see value for this stratagem. Of course I think the value of a Tank Bustas in a Trukk is far greater than foot slogging because you can actually get to your intended targets.
Tank bustas in a trukk can still be killed in a single turn of shooting with no problems whatsoever. Killing 30 gretchin takes a whole lot of dedicated firepower and might leave your opponent with too little firepower to gun down your tank bustas after he has wasted a ton of shots on 3 point models.
The ability to redirect shooting from an expensive unit onto a very cheap unit is invaluable and solves the problem of all ork specialists requiring a transport or dying turn 1. I'm baffled that you don't understand that as an otherwise very knowledgeable ork player.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Ghazzy and other warbosses in my experience aren't too worried about snipers with their toughness. They have character protection (currently) so they have 30 - 90 ablative wounds anyway.
You are picking apart your own argument. Your argument was that the stratagem is useless because characters in general have gretchin as protection. Which is wrong for every character that is not Badrukk, a mek or a pain boy.
So, yes, I agree that your original argument isn't a really good one, since you will rarely need to protect characters from shooting.
That wasn't really my argument though was it? You should know this, since I responded to you with it;
Jidmah wrote: Unless my memory fails me, the vast majority of units don't have ammo runts or grot oilers.
No, but generally speaking our characters and other important units you'd want to protect do.
See the bold and underlined bit? That should help with your confusion. I'm not talking about units that don't need protection because they are so cheap, or characters that don't need protection from Snipers because they are so tough. I'm on about our squishy ass Painboy and Meks with KFF, y'know, the prime targets for snipers? The Big Mek can be built out of the Meganobz kit by the way, it's written on the box and the current painboy clearly has a grot orderly on his model.
If your opponent sets his or her mind to it, they will plow through those ammo runts. A knight with twin avenger gatling cannons can kill an entire unit of 10 nobz/flash gits and 10 ammo runts, but will not be able to kill a whole lot more than 30 gretchin.
A unit of gretchin will take an average of 54 shots from BS3 models to kill, no mater how awesome your weapon is. At 3 points per wound nothing will ever be point-efficient at killing them. You are basically making one unit immune to shooting for a turn, at the cost of 2CP and a gretchin unit-assuming your opponent actually bothers to shoot them instead of another target.
So 2 CP a turn and 3 x 30 = 90 pts for making a single unit semi immune to fine (until the grots die, which isn't exactly going to take long). I could think of better stratagems.
We had this before, right? You claiming that you cannot ever assume that any unit gets better despite discussing a stratagem that can only exist in the new codex.
You are really being negative for no reason here. When we have this stratagem burnas might be worth fielding, and then a screen of gretchin would be very good at protecting them, foot slogging or after being disembarked from their respective transports. For example, a battlewagon could hold 10 burnas and 10 gretchin, allowing the gretchin to take the heat after the enemy has fallen back from combat.
Burna Boyz are point for point worse at shooting than Shoota Boyz. They're awful. This stratagem wouldn't change that. Their problem isn't just their squishyness, it's their lack of damage output. I liked your pun with "take the heat" though. Well played.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lootas generally sit in cover on an objective with KFF Mek proection who sits healing KMKs.
If anything, lootaz sit on top of some terrain feature to have a good LoS so they can utilize their 48" without ever needing to move. A unit of gretchin is almost the same cost as a KFF mek, has objective secured and provides CP by filling battalions.
I'd also like to point out that you just claimed a 5+/5++ save to be equivalent to 30 ablative wounds.
That's not what I claimed at all. You're acting as if CP is utterly worthless. You're also seemingly forgetting that you can only use the same stratagem once per phase. So if your Lootas are shielded by Grots, something else ISN'T.
Also dude, if you're up on a terrain piece overseeing the battlefield, it's gonna be highly unlikely you're within 2" of a Grot unit right...??
An Actual Englishman wrote: Foot slogging Tank Bustas I can see value for this stratagem. Of course I think the value of a Tank Bustas in a Trukk is far greater than foot slogging because you can actually get to your intended targets.
Tank bustas in a trukk can still be killed in a single turn of shooting with no problems whatsoever. Killing 30 gretchin takes a whole lot of dedicated firepower and might leave your opponent with too little firepower to gun down your tank bustas after he has wasted a ton of shots on 3 point models.
The ability to redirect shooting from an expensive unit onto a very cheap unit is invaluable and solves the problem of all ork specialists requiring a transport or dying turn 1. I'm baffled that you don't understand that as an otherwise very knowledgeable ork player.
Nawww, you knock me down just to build me back up huh? Honestly I don't think it helps all that much. We tend to spam our specialists so the enemy player will just target those that aren't protected by the stratagem. I also play Evil Sunz, a transport is kinda built into my blood. Weirdboyz have already hurt them, I don't want them to become more redundant. Tank Bustas only have 18" range, on foot they're too slow and too easy to outmaneuver with that 5" move. Lootas as we've both said are normally perched in a building so won't be in range of the grots. Flash Gits have ammo runts as I've mentioned but you've sold me on the stratagem for them. Nobz I tend to run cheap and melee focused anyway.
I don't know, this is all speculation anyway so there's no point getting upset over it. I wouldn't be too amazed if this were a stratagem but perhaps I'm not seeing something. I guess we're all assuming it'd only affect infantry right? If you could do it on ANY unit, then I'd be listening.
Well, as the englishman aove me stated, burna boyz are pretty awful. That being said, they might get improved quite a bit in the codex (hopefully, since the models are cool IMO and I bet they're only collecting dust on ork players shelves around the world right now)
As of right now they're 14 points each and that's just crazy expensive. The most obvious fix is upping d3 shots to d6.. I'm not sure I feel they'd be worth it even with d6 shots each considering how easy they die though so I'd say a small point drop is needed in addition to that. Maybe 11-12 points?
Point being, that grot stratagem might be useful if the burnas (as an example) get their damage buffed. Good damage output but squishy units could benefit from some grot bodyguards
This is probably spinning off topic and into speculation, but what if gretchin were to receive a built-in aura that worked like the kill team stratagem, only more limited to balance what would make the rest of our army basically invincible? Something similar to savior protocols
juanonymous wrote: This is probably spinning off topic and into speculation, but what if gretchin were to receive a built-in aura that worked like the kill team stratagem, only more limited to balance what would make the rest of our army basically invincible? Something similar to savior protocols
Sounds broken.
We should be forced to pick one grechin unit (or one gretchin-grabbing unit) to activate the power.
If it's automatic, the top tables would be grechin soup and we'd all be compelled to auto-take 400 models.
gungo wrote: Is there anything in the kill team ork box that’s worth spending $60 for if I have the crane and enough burna/lootas?
Hell naw.
The ork kill team box set is laughably bad. Unless of course they have some awesome new rules for killteam we're not aware of, I guess.
What I'm inferring from the Kill Team teases so far is that cover will give the unit benefitting from it a negative to-hit modifier, or at least enable them to go to ground/dig in for it. Kommandos sound like they'll have an inherent ability to gain more of a negative to-hit modifier than usual in cover. Burnas obviously hit automatically with their ranged weapons. I can see the sense in adding both these to the Kill Team box, but ultimately I suspect Burnas will still be too expensive to be useful (until we get a codex with a price drop or Kill Teams has it's own points/power level system that makes them efficient) and at the end of the day more Boyz will probably be better.
I don't think the Kill Team box of Orks is even close to missing the mark as much as the Start Collecting! Orks box was.
juanonymous wrote: This is probably spinning off topic and into speculation, but what if gretchin were to receive a built-in aura that worked like the kill team stratagem, only more limited to balance what would make the rest of our army basically invincible? Something similar to savior protocols
Sounds broken.
We should be forced to pick one grechin unit (or one gretchin-grabbing unit) to activate the power.
If it's automatic, the top tables would be grechin soup and we'd all be compelled to auto-take 400 models.
I don't think that would be the case. When grots had that ability it wasn't really that strong. we would find that after a certain point grots mobs wouldn't be worth more than X number of units. Really I see it as a buff to a CP farming unit. As far as 400 models.... I thought that was already the "only way to play".
juanonymous wrote: This is probably spinning off topic and into speculation, but what if gretchin were to receive a built-in aura that worked like the kill team stratagem, only more limited to balance what would make the rest of our army basically invincible? Something similar to savior protocols
Sounds broken.
We should be forced to pick one grechin unit (or one gretchin-grabbing unit) to activate the power.
If it's automatic, the top tables would be grechin soup and we'd all be compelled to auto-take 400 models.
If properly balanced, though, maybe it would compel ork players to bring the otherwise seldom-seen gretchin to competitive play? Again speculation, but instituting something like a maximum amount of wounds that could be assigned to the grot unit, etc.
they could have it so that you have to roll a 2+ to save a wound with a grot, but on a 1, "the grot rebels and bites the ork" or something - take an additional wound...that would combine a good save option, with GW's love of giving orks random risks of killing themselves, while also keeping it nice and fluffy, and giving the grots a bit of agency
...maybe the risk could get higher for every 10 grots in the mob or something...10 grots, fail on a 1, 1 additional wound...20 grots, fail on a 2, D3 additional wounds...30 grots, fail on a 3, D6 additional wounds
...that would eliminate too much abuse of the ability, while combining with the grots "dangerous in large numbers" theme...
An Actual Englishman wrote: See the bold and underlined bit? That should help with your confusion. I'm not talking about units that don't need protection because they are so cheap, or characters that don't need protection from Snipers because they are so tough. I'm on about our squishy ass Painboy and Meks with KFF, y'know, the prime targets for snipers?
I don't know about your games, but most eldar or SM players I play snipe my weird boyz first. First, they don't have 4+ armor, so there is a really good chance of killing them with a single unit of snipers, and second they are terrified of the thought of 3x d6 mortal wounds hitting their space marines or aspect warriors.
The Big Mek can be built out of the Meganobz kit by the way, it's written on the box and the current painboy clearly has a grot orderly on his model.
The big mek from the Meganobz kit is the MA big mek. There are no bits in that set to build a non-MA model.
As of 8th, the grot orderly is a seprate model. You cannot use that upgrade unless you have a grot on a base to put next to your pain boy. Therefore, the current model is insufficient.
So 2 CP a turn and 3 x 30 = 90 pts for making a single unit semi immune to fine (until the grots die, which isn't exactly going to take long). I could think of better stratagems.
First of all, 3x30 gretchin yield 5 CP, you can use the stratagem three times for the cost of one CP for 90 points.
I would also ask you to do the math on "until the grots die, which isn't exactly going to take long". I can't think of anything that's less than 300 points which plows through 30 gretchin within a single round of shooting without the help of the moral phase.
Jidmah wrote: Burna Boyz are point for point worse at shooting than Shoota Boyz. They're awful. This stratagem wouldn't change that. Their problem isn't just their squishyness, it's their lack of damage output. I liked your pun with "take the heat" though. Well played.
We had this argument before. You simply ignore the possibility that burna boyz will be worth fielding in the new codex.
Jidmah wrote: That's not what I claimed at all. You're acting as if CP is utterly worthless. You're also seemingly forgetting that you can only use the same stratagem once per phase. So if your Lootas are shielded by Grots, something else ISN'T.
This argument can be applied to every stratagem in the game. Having 225 points of lootaz alive instead of dead will outperform any two re-rolls you could have done instead.
Also dude, if you're up on a terrain piece overseeing the battlefield, it's gonna be highly unlikely you're within 2" of a Grot unit right...??
Seriously? Put one grot next to them, and then conga to all the objectives nearby. Once you've done that, use all remaining gretchin for area denial. Basic use of horde units.
Nawww, you knock me down just to build me back up huh? Honestly I don't think it helps all that much. We tend to spam our specialists so the enemy player will just target those that aren't protected by the stratagem.
We spam our specialists because otherwise the unit will get shot off the board and you have zero specialists the turn after.
My other army, DG has a stratagem which works really similar to this, it prevents units from shooting the unit you use the stratagem on unless it is the closest unit. I always use that on a unit of tripple plasma plague marines, so I can always count on having 3 plasma guns available. No need for redundancy at all.
It would be the same for a unit protected by gretchin shields. You could field one unit of 15 lootaz and be sure that they stick around for a turn or two. You would not need to field 45 lootaz to make sure to still have some long-range D2 shooting for turn 3.
I also play Evil Sunz, a transport is kinda built into my blood. Weirdboyz have already hurt them, I don't want them to become more redundant.
I don't think that fear is justified, as the gretchin shield would cater more to foot-slogging hordes. It's meant to allow foot-slogging hordes to field a bunch of units which have never been viable in their builds before.
The strength of transports should be both speed and protection.
Tank Bustas only have 18" range, on foot they're too slow and too easy to outmaneuver with that 5" move. Lootas as we've both said are normally perched in a building so won't be in range of the grots. Flash Gits have ammo runts as I've mentioned but you've sold me on the stratagem for them. Nobz I tend to run cheap and melee focused anyway.
If I sold you on a single unit, it's not worthless, right? Just another idea: You could just run your gretchin in front of your horde to take charges from things like stealers or zerkers like some people do today. For 2CP you could also have those gretchin take all shots for your cheap nobz (even cheap nobz aren't actually that cheap), which would probably result in your enemy shooting boyz instead.
I don't know, this is all speculation anyway so there's no point getting upset over it. I wouldn't be too amazed if this were a stratagem but perhaps I'm not seeing something. I guess we're all assuming it'd only affect infantry right? If you could do it on ANY unit, then I'd be listening.
Bike or infantry is also quite common for stratagems. I wouldn't expect it to allow screening nauts though.
Billagio wrote: Burnas at 14 points is ridiculous. You could probably get a space marine with a flamer for that price.
I assume you're being hyperbolic for effect since a space marine with a flamer is 22 points. Although to be fair, that cost is also ridiculous. A space marine isn't worth 13 points and a flamer isn't worth 9 points.
Flamers are sort of underwhelming in general this edition, which is strange considering how many ways there are to stack negative to hit modifiers for some armies. All flame weapons should be "roll 2 dice and pick the highest result" when rolling for amount of shots and they should also ignore cover IMO.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Just go back to the old rules where grots grant a cover save to a unit being shot at if the grot unit is between the firer and the target.
For every successful save, remove one grot.
I don't think that would be very useful. It changes how cover saves work, which is that they don't exist just a pip to the save. so going from a 6+ to a 5+ I don't know if I'd be excited about that for the cost of a grot.
Maybe lootas standing in terrain moving their save down to a 4+ with the grots, maybe but even then I wouldn't like it if I just picked up the grot with no chance to save the grot and still, because my dice are crule, still fail a save. I've just given up 2 models.
If you mean just passing it off to the grots on a successful roll and let the grot worry about it. Then cool, I'd do that it worked before. But let me attempt to save the grot.
Billagio wrote: Burnas at 14 points is ridiculous. You could probably get a space marine with a flamer for that price.
I assume you're being hyperbolic for effect since a space marine with a flamer is 22 points. Although to be fair, that cost is also ridiculous. A space marine isn't worth 13 points and a flamer isn't worth 9 points.
Flamers are sort of underwhelming in general this edition, which is strange considering how many ways there are to stack negative to hit modifiers for some armies. All flame weapons should be "roll 2 dice and pick the highest result" when rolling for amount of shots and they should also ignore cover IMO.
My bad, too be honest I didnt look at the SM codex, I knew they were 13 points but assumed that flamers were free like in previous editions. Whoops.
koooaei wrote: Don't slowplay and be a winner that always looses
Most tournaments now punish slow play in some more or less efficient way.
As they should. Slowplay is not a tactic, it's an exploit, and it's making people hate playing against orks when traditionally we've been a very fun army to play against.
My usual Scrumgrod told me his nu-knights cost roughly 600 points each...Good lord. It's almost 2 to 1 for the price of a stompa. Really hope fora points drop and or more weapons/stat buffs. Stupid humies and their fancy stuff. grumble, grumble.
Jidmah wrote: You could always threaten to destroy your opponent's miniatures unless he concedes if winning is that important to you.
Hey now that's not entirely fair.
It's a pretty sorry state of affairs when the Orks tactica thread response to "How to I beat Knights?" is "slow play". If that is our only viable tactic for beating a Knight army I simply won't play them. I don't mind losing but I'm not wasting my time playing a game I have no chance of winning.
Jidmah wrote: You could always threaten to destroy your opponent's miniatures unless he concedes if winning is that important to you.
Haha I've been working on destroying his armies for years. Some time the boys even pull it off! We've been smashing armies together for about 17 years now. (reason I call him Scrumgrod ) We've probably got a tied score.
I wouldn't "destroy his miniatures" I've painted over half of them. Every few years I paint one of his new bought to win armies for him.
Jidmah wrote: You could always threaten to destroy your opponent's miniatures unless he concedes if winning is that important to you.
Hey now that's not entirely fair.
It's a pretty sorry state of affairs when the Orks tactica thread response to "How to I beat Knights?" is "slow play". If that is our only viable tactic for beating a Knight army I simply won't play them. I don't mind losing but I'm not wasting my time playing a game I have no chance of winning.
Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.
If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.
Jidmah wrote: You could always threaten to destroy your opponent's miniatures unless he concedes if winning is that important to you.
Hey now that's not entirely fair.
It's a pretty sorry state of affairs when the Orks tactica thread response to "How to I beat Knights?" is "slow play". If that is our only viable tactic for beating a Knight army I simply won't play them. I don't mind losing but I'm not wasting my time playing a game I have no chance of winning.
Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.
If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.
Agreed, slow playing is cheating, it is not a tactic.
Jidmah wrote: Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.
If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.
You're preaching to the converted, I agree that it's cheating and it's bogus. It's not, however, got anyone kicked out of any tournaments. In the last GW organised event the Ork that won intentionally slow played. He won.
The problem I present to you is - what is the actual response to a Knight army? I've not seen anyone suggest anything other than slow play? Or is it "wait for the codex"?
Jidmah wrote: Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.
If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.
You're preaching to the converted, I agree that it's cheating and it's bogus. It's not, however, got anyone kicked out of any tournaments. In the last GW organised event the Ork that won intentionally slow played. He won.
The problem I present to you is - what is the actual response to a Knight army? I've not seen anyone suggest anything other than slow play? Or is it "wait for the codex"?
Jidmah wrote: Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.
If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.
You're preaching to the converted, I agree that it's cheating and it's bogus. It's not, however, got anyone kicked out of any tournaments. In the last GW organised event the Ork that won intentionally slow played. He won.
The problem I present to you is - what is the actual response to a Knight army? I've not seen anyone suggest anything other than slow play? Or is it "wait for the codex"?
The only answer, and I MEAN the only answer is to run hide and tie up. play the objectives and just hope you can survive until the end of the game, don't slow play but don't even attempt to engage his army because he will liquidate your army before turn 5 is over. If you can hide in LOS blocking terrain for few turns you might win on objectives....but otherwise....we don't have any answers to Knights at the moment....literally none.
Jidmah wrote: Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.
If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.
You're preaching to the converted, I agree that it's cheating and it's bogus. It's not, however, got anyone kicked out of any tournaments. In the last GW organised event the Ork that won intentionally slow played. He won.
The problem I present to you is - what is the actual response to a Knight army? I've not seen anyone suggest anything other than slow play? Or is it "wait for the codex"?
With the optimal anti-ork load-out a single knight can kill ~30 ork models per turn, not considering KFF and FNP (though FNP is mostly useless due to all the D2 weapons). The usual army of 3 knights + 2 armingers is killing about two and a half units of boyz per turn, so you can bring 10 units of 30 boyz and last till turn 4 without actually being present at the table. So the goal is to waste some of that killing power and last longer
KMK slow down that killing speed since every weapon can target only one unit, so a bunch of overkill is going to go into each single KMK and gretchin crew.
Maybe split a bunch of mobs up into units of 10 to provoke more overkill and mob them up when needed?
Unit of gretchin actually have a reason to exists when facing knights, since they can be used as roadblocks to prevent the knights from charging your boyz. Make sure the gap between the gretchin and the unit they are trying to protect is smaller than the knight's base and it will spend some time stomping on gretchin. Make sure they conga to a warboss or thrakka. Jumping a gretchin mob to spread out at max coherency to block knight movement will seriously limit the use of their secondary weapon systems, like meltas, flamers and the dreaded conflagration cannon (that's the trukk-sized flamer). Bonus points if you lose a grot to the harpoon weapon.
It's also not unreasonable to expect one knight to die when you throw everything at it. Given the choice, try to take out character knights, since they count as 10 models when holding objectives, which endangers your strategy of just sitting through the whole thing.
Outside of that, I don't think anything but characters is really worth bringing to fight knights, since every point spent on tank bustas, planes, or any other of our semi-decent units will only reduce the time it takes to wipe you out and nothing will actually help you kill knights faster.
so...for an anti-knight ork list, could extreme MSU-spam do the trick? seeing as they only have so many guns to unload...
1750 for tourney lists isn't it?...how about this?
Battalion 1 HQ Big Mek - KFF, killchoppa, grot oiler, legendary fighter WLT (upgrades just using up remaining points really)
Big Mek - KFF Troops
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Fast Attack
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Heavy Support
Mek Gunz - 6 KMK
Battalion 2 HQ Big Mek - KFF Weirdboy - "Da Jump"
Troops
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Fast Attack
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
...effectively 28 units that have to be targeted...could probably quite effectively surround knights, or just hide several squads behind terrain, etc...try to win via objectives and just staying alive?
MW are still a weakness knights have so really i see it being a good idea especially surrounded by boyz. keep him close to painboy too for brain healing.
Anvildude wrote: Why not Tankbustas? Knights are Vehicles, correct?
Tank Bustaz getting near a Knight would be the issue. Transports are easy enough to pick off, and ANY strategy that solely relies on a Psychic Power like Da Jump going off isn't a very reliable one IMO.
And while I don't like to MathHammer exclusively, 15 tank Bustaz might net 5 hits. 3 wounds.
ZoBo wrote: so...for an anti-knight ork list, could extreme MSU-spam do the trick? seeing as they only have so many guns to unload...
I don't think the overkill on MSU outweighs the benefits of having mobs of 30 (ld and +1 attack). A healthy mixture is probably the way to go, with half the boyz in big units and the other in units of 10.
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Anvildude wrote: Why not Tankbustas? Knights are Vehicles, correct?
They don't do enough damage to actually take down a knight (about 6 per unit of 15), and the knight army can just kill 3x15 tank bustas turn 1 unless they are hiding in bastions/battlewagons.
Hiding in bastions/battlewagons means that you lose those turn one and some of the tank bustas. By turn 2 you are left with about 600-700 points to fight and entire 2000 points of knights.
Anvildude wrote: Why not Tankbustas? Knights are Vehicles, correct?
10 Tankbustas in A Trukk nets you 5 hits, and about 3 unsaved damage, you would need 3 max units of 15 to even down the Knight, and if you have 3 units of 15 you need 3 battlewagons minimum to transport them...which means 3 easy targets to explode turn 1 and then pick off Tank Bustas with other units. Orkz have NO reliable way to kill a Knight.
If you are absolutely rich as hell and have the time to paint them up, A decent case can be made for 18 Kustom Mega Kannons in 3 batteries of 6, that nets you on average 31-32 S8 hits a turn...it also nets you 10 Mortal wounds on yourself but still
But 31 hits = 15 wounds against T8 and with -3 AP they will be doing some decent damage, the problem is they will die easy
How many wounds are needed to down a knight? I am thinking kannons and even Smasha Guns will help. (I know they are not everyone's favorite Mek gun.) D6 damage getting through will stack up. But again we do not have a one tool option.
Even with the shooting I would expect to have to charge it to finish it off. Which is another issue with fighting a knight. it's tough and going to take a lot of resources to kill. so you have to try to hit it with everything until it's dead then move on to the next one. which will take twice as long to kill as we start running out of units to fight it with. Can a Stompa kill one of these knights? I think it does a flat 6 damage in combat. (or at least finish it off?) really want a points drop on that Stompa...
What about a combination of Da Jump and two-grot Kannon crews to camp objectives, abandon the Kannons? minimum squads of grots as screens too. Use storm boyz or kommandos to provide screen for the crews
The answer to the biggest threat might be the smallest unit.
Keep in mind that knights have a 5++ save and stratagem to improve that to 4++ save when you pile on. The math looks a lot worse for both tank bustas and KMK when you keep in mind.
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warhead01 wrote: How many wounds are needed to down a knight? I am thinking kannons and even Smasha Guns will help. (I know they are not everyone's favorite Mek gun.) D6 damage getting through will stack up. But again we do not have a one tool option.
Keep in mind that you need to roll 8+ with 2d6 to wound with a smasha. Kannons might work though, they are only slightly less efficient at shooting than tank bustas, but help with the MSU game.
Note that the rule of 3 counts KMK and smashas as the same unit, so you might as well go full KMK.
Even with the shooting I would expect to have to charge it to finish it off. Which is another issue with fighting a knight. it's tough and going to take a lot of resources to kill. so you have to try to hit it with everything until it's dead then move on to the next one. which will take twice as long to kill as we start running out of units to fight it with. Can a Stompa kill one of these knights? I think it does a flat 6 damage in combat. (or at least finish it off?) really want a points drop on that Stompa...
You can expect to get about 2 attacks to deal damage with the stompa, assuming it has not degraded yet. Once it's below 20 wounds, don't expect it to do anything at all. A grokanaut does almost the same damage in combat against a knights as the stompa, so just bring 3 grokanauts instead of one stompa.
I think your right there. 3 Gorkanauts would be harder to kill in one go than a single Stompa. I know the Smasha guns aren't as good. lol. I just like them and have shredded vehicles with them usually rolling better than a 7. That -4 is beastly.
Hell, we need that SAG to roll 6,6, roll 6 shots hit 6 times, use Dakka Dakka, hit 6 more times then just roll 3's on all the D3's... that's about do it. A once in a life time play. lol drop 36 mortal wound in.
warhead01 wrote: I think your right there. 3 Gorkanauts would be harder to kill in one go than a single Stompa. I know the Smasha guns aren't as good. lol. I just like them and have shredded vehicles with them usually rolling better than a 7. That -4 is beastly.
Hell, we need that SAG to roll 6,6, roll 6 shots hit 6 times, use Dakka Dakka, hit 6 more times then just roll 3's on all the D3's... that's about do it. A once in a life time play. lol drop 36 mortal wound in.
Could you imagine that sequence of rolls, not even with Dakkadakka
Roll 2d6 and get two 6 6
"Looks like it's gonna sting!"
Roll a 6 for shots
"Wow out for blood!" Said sarcastically
Roll six dice, all results 5 or 6, chuckling in your words you state
"Damn he even had time to aim. Well they all automatically do d3 wounds soo.."
You scoop up the dice and roll all six again, only for all six to be 5's and 6's again. Somewhere in a manic state of confusion and excitement you state
"Well I guess that Drop Pod and everything underneath of it is gone. How many wounds did it have left?"
"Four, you certainly got him." Your opponent chuckles as he scoops up his Drop Pod.
It would be just my luck too. Shooting a half dead vehicle I could have easily killed and now it's foiled my brilliant plan. I needed it alive to get my big charge. Cost me the game...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... One Knight is generally about a third of the enemy force, right? So why is it such a bad idea to dedicate 1/4 or 1/3 of our force to dealing with it?
Or am I severely overestimating the cost of a Knight for empirium stooges?
Anvildude wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but... One Knight is generally about a third of the enemy force, right? So why is it such a bad idea to dedicate 1/4 or 1/3 of our force to dealing with it?
Or am I severely overestimating the cost of a Knight for empirium stooges?
600 points of orks barely scratches a knight.
At range, 1200 points of orks barely scratches a knight.
Anvildude wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but... One Knight is generally about a third of the enemy force, right? So why is it such a bad idea to dedicate 1/4 or 1/3 of our force to dealing with it?
Or am I severely overestimating the cost of a Knight for empirium stooges?
I guess I would ask why would I not dedicate all of my resources to destroying it as quickly as possible. It's going to have it's way with my units and the more it does that the less chance I have to stop it.
It's going to remove my combat units, clean me off objectives and cripple my army. If it goes on too long then by the time I have dealt with it I wont have enough left to deal with the rest of the opponents army.
And, it is very likely I will be going second. Giving the other side the better part of two turns to leverage against my army.
But that's just how I see it.
First they screen me so Da Jump is not a good idea if possible. Second the knight move up to my closest large unit while shooting and possibly deleting the next closest large unit charges holds me up for two combats, leaves combat unless I get lucky and can trap it in combat. Shoots and charges again. That's just one knight. the support clears my objective holders and takes objectives while trying to maintain a screen.
The next turn or two is a repeat of the first but maybe I start to get lucky, maybe I kill the knight. it explodes. More of my models die. The other player bats cleanup. game over turn 3 or 4. Imperial victory.
Maybe that's being pessimistic. I do think that could be beaten but it will take maybe 10 games to sort it out. Even still the other list is likely to adapt to stay ahead of my own. And that's just between friends.
The way I would charge it is throw something durable in like a wagon, overwatch complete wagon in. Then throw some tooled out combat units. Meka dread with two klaws and something else strong and choppy. and another unit of some kind if theirs room. Go first with my most killy unit. expect to be interrupted loose a unit. keep fighting.
Try to ensure the knight has takes damage so you can push it to lower levels of effectiveness prior to the charges. (We probably put on some damage with ranged but hard to say how much.)
Expect a counter charge to save the knight if things go on too long.
Just how I look at it.
Also against knights: meganobz with killsaws. 4 attacks each with s10 and -4ap does 0-8dmg per dude. Just take some trukks to get them there. I mix 5 tankbustas+squig with 3 meganobz in a trukk for vehicle murderfest (unless it gets surrounded, then gg)
Best I have is bomb squiggs in a wagon. Unfotunately 5 squiggs, 15 tankbustas and the wagon are 436 points and very likley won't even survive to shoot once. If they do, they will hit the knight and get a few wounds on it, then die.
I won vs a three knight list at the last round of the 1500 pt tournament for the gw cafe apology con about a month ago. He had two dakka knights and one with a sword. Ended up tabling him but i had more objectives and he only had one knight left turn 5. Had about 60 boyz ghaz kff mek 3 rokkit buggies 4 kmks a gorkanaught and a weirdboy. Used the boyz to absorb the first ones charge and gorkanaught tore it to piece in the following turn in cc. After that it was just chasing the other knights around with nobz pk and ghaz will plinking it with kmks and rokkit buggies. Mek guns crew spread out to claim objs.
Related to fighting knights with a gorkanaut, is there a general rule of thumb you guys follow for determining which attack profile to use for a Naught in CC? Im thinking mostly vs TMCs im not sure which profile to use since theyre mostly only T6/7
Billagio wrote: Related to fighting knights with a gorkanaut, is there a general rule of thumb you guys follow for determining which attack profile to use for a Naught in CC? Im thinking mostly vs TMCs im not sure which profile to use since theyre mostly only T6/7
This is how I do it.
Is the model T7 or less?
- Yes: Go for the more hits profile. Wounding on 3's and a reliable 2 damage is fantastic against T6/7.
Is the model T8?
- Yes: Does it have a 4++ or better?
---- Yes: Go for the more hits profile. The 4++ negates the advantage of the -4 AP and wounding on 2's.
---- No: Go for the higher strength profile. Wounding on 2's is fantastic for anything that doesn't have a way to tank the d6 damage.
Do you just want to be able to say "I wound your knight/land raider/monstrous creature on a 2+"?
- Yes: Show that git dat orks iz da best.
- No: Yer a git.
Of course, this is my rule of thumb only based on crude mathhammering. The situation could call for different options, but it's a good go-to I use.
Reminds me of when I charged my Morkonaut at a daemon prince. The kff didnt do squat all game cuz daemons dont have shooting, but that didn't stop it from squishing something in melee.
Yeah I also run a gorkanaut and face an admech/knight player and the gorkanaut can pretty dependably take a big chunk out of a knight and sometimes kill it outright. 6 attacks nets 4 hits, most likely 4 wounds for an average of 14 damage, but i would definitely try and spend a command point for an extra hit or a damage re-roll to get that to swing higher. I try and pick a knight to soften up with tankbustas or something and then charge the gorkanaut in after to finish it off. If the opposing knight is not a gallant the naught typically lives through the fight too. You just have to be very careful about positioning; you need to get the charge and you need to not get shot up before you do it, which can be hard, but if the opponent is an all knight army this can be easier because you can drop your gorkanaut after he's put down all his knights and shown his hand.
I haven't had any luck with the dorkanauts. They need a rework they will not get. Jumping TBs, Weird Boyz with Tide and KMKs. I don't know of anything else that stands a chance.
Gang, the more games I play, the less I am impressed with kustom force fields and pain boys. I take the kff mek in my walker lists because its important to have an invul save to soak high damage anti tank weapons, but on normal boyz I rarely feel happy I took them. Its very annoying to keep mobs inside the bubble, especially on boards with lots of terrain (best way to play imo). As my boys run up and get different run distances its difficult to keep the bubble together and pretty soon it breaks up as the boyz charge ahead or disperse to grab objectives. Pain boys are the same issues but magnified due to worse reach and worse durability increase. A kff mek needs to save 13 boyz to make up its points, but I don't think I've ever really had on do that, and honestly I'd rather just bring 13 more boys who actually add offensive output while not giving me the headache of trying to play around the Damn bubble. The same goes for the painboy, is rather have 8 or 9 more boys. Dont even get me started on banner nobs. Waste of time, way too expensive, ill take a weirdboy with warpath over this git every time.
Is anyone else feeling this way or should I just hang my head and go sit with the mad boyz?
ManTube wrote: Gang, the more games I play, the less I am impressed with kustom force fields and pain boys. I take the kff mek in my walker lists because its important to have an invul save to soak high damage anti tank weapons, but on normal boyz I rarely feel happy I took them. Its very annoying to keep mobs inside the bubble, especially on boards with lots of terrain (best way to play imo). As my boys run up and get different run distances its difficult to keep the bubble together and pretty soon it breaks up as the boyz charge ahead or disperse to grab objectives. Pain boys are the same issues but magnified due to worse reach and worse durability increase. A kff mek needs to save 13 boyz to make up its points, but I don't think I've ever really had on do that, and honestly I'd rather just bring 13 more boys who actually add offensive output while not giving me the headache of trying to play around the Damn bubble. The same goes for the painboy, is rather have 8 or 9 more boys. Dont even get me started on banner nobs. Waste of time, way too expensive, ill take a weirdboy with warpath over this git every time.
Is anyone else feeling this way or should I just hang my head and go sit with the mad boyz?
Banner nobz work better for units with lots of powerklaws or killsaws to bring that 4+ back to a 3+, but I absolutely agree that he's overpriced for what he does.
I feel that out of this 3 support characters, only a painboy is worth it in a tide. He gives this bit of durability to boyz and patches up wierdboyz. Besides, he's not bad with 4-5 killsaw attacks. 5 with Ghaz around.
Kff big meks are hard to evaluate. They might be ok in a walker wall or mech lists but those lists are currently so mediocre at best, whatever good mek does, goes to waste.
Banner nobz have only ever been semi-okish in walker wall lists supporting kanz. Naughts...i haven't had a naught reach combat neither in 7th nor 8th edition yet...but if you'll get to play vs a mellee opponent or someone who delibirately ignores a naught, banner nob might be ok to support one. Maybe a banner nob could be useful in a tide to add this bit of a punch vs tougher targets like knights. But practice shows an extra wierdboy is just better in a broader variety of situations.
Depends on situation.
Had a recent game against Knights, and the KFF Meks were absolute gold A Painboy would have been useless there, as pretty much all weapons had Damage of 2 or more.
Gitdakka wrote: Also against knights: meganobz with killsaws. 4 attacks each with s10 and -4ap does 0-8dmg per dude. Just take some trukks to get them there. I mix 5 tankbustas+squig with 3 meganobz in a trukk for vehicle murderfest (unless it gets surrounded, then gg)
Meganobz with Killsaws REQUIRE a Trukk or more likely a Wagon to survive past turn 1. 3 Meganobz with Killsawz and a trukk cost 226pts or there about. That gives you 12 attacks hitting on 4s so 6 hits. Wounding on 3s = 4 Wounds and assuming ZERO invuln save against close combat attacks that is 8 damage on average. So for 226pts you haven't even degraded the knight, it would take on average 3 of these to kill the cheapest knight (Gallant) So you need 678pts of Meganobz and trukkz to kill 1 knight, not bad.....except that will never happen because knights can liquidate a trukk every turn. And if they bring the new cheese knights with a 4+ invuln its DOUBLE that, so it takes 1350pts to one shot a knight....not exactly effective, and god help you if they get 1 turn of shooting off, basically its GG.
Also, against knights any trukk or wagon will simply be deleted in a single turn, and sawnobz at 48 points per model is a juicy target as well. The proper way to play knights is to never attack them, swamp the board with cheap bodies, win on objectives. It is boring, tedious, yet somewhat effective.
Well, a combination of a horde of boyz, multiple wierdboyz, kmk and Ghaz can more or less reliably down knights. Though, you should still focus on board controle. Knights are quite choppy and you'll be giving them free kills if you launch a bunch of unprepared charges. And they're much faster than you.
I just wanted to provide some quick info on knights. It is not points efficient to shoot at them with Burnaz or Kommandos, so if you are facing a Knight list maybe avoid those. Also, Kanz and Deff Dreadz are too slow to ever actually get into combat with them, so avoid using those as well. As far as HQ choices go the Big Mek with Shokk Attak Gun seems like a smart choice with it's great AP modifier and Mortal Wounds but it turns out it isn't good enough for the points. Also, no matter how cheap they make the KMB it seems like it'll never be good enough to equip and use against a Knight army.
If you absolutely have to bring three or more fliers I recommend you only bring the Dakkajet the others are pretty meh.
For the most part things in the ork codex that are meant for shooting models with no armor are bad at Knight armies and anything in the codex meant for anti tank are points inefficient at shooting and assaulting Knights so just don't bring anything and hope they forget to use some of their models before you get wiped on turn 6 or 7 anyways.
Hrm... Perhaps sikolojikal combat would work? Take a Naught or a couple CC Dreads, and challenge your opponent's Knight to a CC duel, callin' 'im a weedy git if he shoots at your models before they get into combat?
Anvildude wrote: Hrm... Perhaps sikolojikal combat would work? Take a Naught or a couple CC Dreads, and challenge your opponent's Knight to a CC duel, callin' 'im a weedy git if he shoots at your models before they get into combat?
There's only one guy who plays a knight at the place I play 40k and my dream is to charge his knight with one of my nauts and say "I'm wounding your knight on 2's."
Anvildude wrote: Hrm... Perhaps sikolojikal combat would work? Take a Naught or a couple CC Dreads, and challenge your opponent's Knight to a CC duel, callin' 'im a weedy git if he shoots at your models before they get into combat?
If you are looking for friendly game, just ask them to not bring a knight or use one of the less powerful variants like the galant or the paladin and maybe have them field their knights as freeblades for a more fun game. You will still have hard time handling them, but the game will be more fun.
A knight army that wants to win... well, neither the naut nor cc dreads will get back up after a knight as hit them with a reaper chainsword or a thunderstrike gauntlet. And since the knights are a lot faster than our walkers, they will probably be striking first.
You would probably need 7 deff dreads to kill one small knight, since he kills two or three before they get to strike and then you need about 4 to down a small knights. Assuming no relics or warlord traits are involved. Or any shooting at all.
As for the MANz comment... MANz cannot charge turn 1 unless you gamble on a getting both first turn, da jump, succeeding the charge and dodging the hellish overwatch. So assuming you somehow got 10 MANz with killsaws to swing at a knight, you will probably kill it.
If you do not get first turn or fail da jump or fail the charge or enough of your manz get killed by overwatch or the enemy uses a defensive stratagem or your dice luck is slightly below average... you can simply collect your models and go home, because you are getting tabled.
While I always appreciate looking for new angles, one simply has to accept that the index has not provided orks with an efficient way of killing T8/3+ models. Currently the only option is to sit through the firestorm and hope your opponent puts himself in a bad position, so you can take a knight from him by piling boyz and characters onto it.
As a melee-only option the galant is pretty tame against orks unless stacked with the right relics, house and stratagems. Being able to charge across half the battlefield and hit something six times with a D8 relic is powerful, but what is he going to target in an ork army? Worst case he stomps half a unit of boyz per turn.
I really don't see what's supposed to be powerful about a paladin. The twin battlecannon is really nothing to write home about, other armies can do much more for those points.
Heck knights can do better for those points. The avenger gatling cannon with integrated flamer costs less than the rapid fire battlecannon.
The most common knights army people are going to face outside of tournaments is probably:
1 Gallant and 1 Crusader (content of the renegade box)
2 Armingers (from forgebane or cheap as chips on ebay)
1 Other knight, one of the big ones or one the player already had from 7th
1 more arminger or helverines or AdMech chaff (from forgebane) or Imperial CP farm
So, if you are playing at stores/clubs or you have a group that's not highly competitive, I'd plan on facing that. If you are trying to win tournaments... wait for the codex.
Guys I got some more sweet intel on Knights today;
-It seems a squad of six Smasha gunz for only about 246 points can do up to 36 damage to a Knight.
-15 Tankbustas cost roughly 255 points and are can do 45 damage to a Knight.
-2 Big Mekz with Shokk Attack Gunz can do 36 damage for only 160 points at 60 inches!!
You have to buy a trukk for the tankbustas which means the Big Mek with SAG is the clear winner here followed by Smasha gunz.
(Estimated actual damage with Smasha Gunz is approximately 1.47 damage YMMV)
Edit, 10 Nobz with Kombi Skorcha can do 60 damage to a Knight.
I love doing this terrible brand of math for orkz, can we give a name and make it a thing? A calculation for highest damage pssible no matter how unlikely.
Editedit
Guyz.. guyz.. a single Bubblechukka does 36 damage. Six Bubblechukkas for about 342 points does 216 Damage. Why is this not meta? It is soo much more DAKKA!
Rismonite wrote: Guys I got some more sweet intel on Knights today;
-It seems a squad of six Smasha gunz for only about 246 points can do up to 36 damage to a Knight.
-15 Tankbustas cost roughly 255 points and are can do 45 damage to a Knight.
-2 Big Mekz with Shokk Attack Gunz can do 36 damage for only 160 points at 60 inches!!
You have to buy a trukk for the tankbustas which means the Big Mek with SAG is the clear winner here followed by Smasha gunz.
(Estimated actual damage with Smasha Gunz is approximately 1.47 damage YMMV)
Edit, 10 Nobz with Kombi Skorcha can do 60 damage to a Knight.
I love doing this terrible brand of math for orkz, can we give a name and make it a thing? A calculation for highest damage pssible no matter how unlikely.
Editedit
Guyz.. guyz.. a single Bubblechukka does 36 damage. Six Bubblechukkas for about 342 points does 216 Damage. Why is this not meta? It is soo much more DAKKA!
Bubblechukkas seem great until your opponent chooses 2 strength or 1 attack. IF you roll 3 good numbers, you can put the low one on AP and have a go. You might get a few damage points in but nothing to write home about.
Being cheap, you can spam them...but I feel bad about spamming mine because they are scratch built. Better than cardboard boxes, but still not nearly as good as a real model.
JimOnMars wrote: [139c825ec0df4ca75f70300427d1b25c.jpg]
Being cheap, you can spam them...but I feel bad about spamming mine because they are scratch built. Better than cardboard boxes, but still not nearly as good as a real model.
Not a "real" model because the scratch-build isn't that good, or not a "real" model because it's not GW? I haven't built any bubble chukkas yet (haven't finished anything but a single lobba, actually) but I'm hoping my scratch-built big/mek gunz will be spam-worthy! (well, as 'spammy' as the rule of 3 will allow, at least)
-Coh
P.S. I was just re-looking at the datasheets and am wondering, can I mix gun types within a unit of Mek or Big Gunz? (i.e. a mixture of kannon/lobba/zzapp or a mixture of kmk/chukka/smasha/traktor... obviously not mixing big and mek gunz within the same unit)
So, I know it's a little premature, but can we talk killteam tactics here? There's been enough leaked that I'm putting together some initial rough lists to try. Here are my thoughts:
Headlines: Shooty orks, grot leaders, kommandos.
I think shooty orks are going to be good. With 6+ always hitting, multishot weapons, and decent melee combat stats even when we don't spec for it, I think a few lootas and big shootas in the back are going to do absolute work. Particularly when they get some buffs from specialists....
I think gretchin as squad leader to hand out aura buffs to a ranged backline is a really solid plan. They are cheap as chips, small enough to hide behind terrain easily, and at higher experience levels can give powerful aura and allied unit bonuses.
Aaaaand Kommandos. With bonuses in cover, I think kommandos will be deceptively sticky on the field and very threatening once they reach melee. This means they'll be a really great front line while a loota or two at the back gets free reign.
So, my list is looking something like....
Leader: Grot
Heavy Specialist: Loota
Comms Specialist: Spanner w/big shoota
Combat Specialist: Kommando Nob
Demolitions Specialist: Boss nob w/kombi skorcha
Fire Team 1:
Shoota Boyz x4
Fire Team 2:
Grots x3
Fire Team 3:
Kommandos x2
Spanner, loota, and grots in the back, hopefully with decent sightlines, laying down fire/soaking up return fire. Shootas/nob to claim the midfield. Kommandos getting stuck in.
Hope to play a few games this weekend, see how it actually plays. Anyone else doing some early theorycrafting? Any thoughts?
I am currently painting up my SWAT/ Solid Snake themed Ork Kommandos in a shadowy blue Grey color scheme.
First list this Sunday will introduce my team, 8 Kommandos, Kommando Nob, Burna Boy and 4 Gretchen. I already have an Ork Kommisar on the Roster, and I just need to think of a theme for basic Ork Boy (reserves). I'm thinking killer clown or ninja mimes.
Survivability seems like it might be a thing for Orks in Killteam. It seems like we have nothing with a save better than 6+. Anything with AP is going to shred us. I'm hoping that the flesh wound thing pans out, but anything with flesh wounds has to make nerve tests. We might be left with a bunch of boys doing nothing but cowering in hiding.
On the plus side, combi Scorchas are super cheap. BBQ anyone?
Ork defence is T4 and -stuff to hit. But yeah orks seem weird in Kill Team. 5 dudes die(aka 2 shooting phases) and flesh wounds become stunlocks unless you roll a 1.
Well, I played 2 quick games yesterday with 3 other players. Thousand Sons, Tyranid lictors, Deathwatch, and T'au.
Managed to get into CC turn 2 and wreck face. Took out all the Deathwatch and even 2 Lictors. Morale is a bit punishing, but basically having universal Mob Rule means we still have to travel in a group for the LD modifiers.
Had an absolute blast playing, and every time I use my Ork army, my voice gets hoarse from all the shouting and WAAAAGHing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A related question: do we know what special tactics come in the krogskull Burna Boyz box set?
Hades wrote: Heard the burna boyz killteam box comes with 32mm bases. Whos ready to rebase all their orks when our codex drops T-T
Show me one codex that has a base size rules section?
Agreed. Lots of folks in here are suggesting that you have to re-base.
that's bonkers. Rebasing is optional.
I am looking forward to basing my lootas and burnas, because their guns are larger, but all of my tankbustas, kommandos, stormboyz and boyz will remain on 25s.
Sure its optional. Gw even has that rule where you can use the base it came with. However you go to your local GT and its the opposite. You cant show up to a sigmar tourny anymore with square bases.
I've always been adamant that players should be using the most up to date base size for years now, so for me to NOT re-base, would make me a huge tool.
I'm not refusing games or anything, but playing against other opponents square bases, Space Hulk bases, sometimes no base at all, mixed in with 25s and 32s gets my OCD bonkers.
Hades wrote: Heard the burna boyz killteam box comes with 32mm bases. Whos ready to rebase all their orks when our codex drops T-T
Show me one codex that has a base size rules section?
Agreed. Lots of folks in here are suggesting that you have to re-base.
that's bonkers. Rebasing is optional.
I am looking forward to basing my lootas and burnas, because their guns are larger, but all of my tankbustas, kommandos, stormboyz and boyz will remain on 25s.
Age of Sigmar already has a "base size list". 40k will follow suit
Just ignore everything he says about ork units and it's a pretty solid guide.
To summarize for ork players who don't want to read it. "*crying Orkz don't die fast enough to my speshul knights!"
Of course a knight can liquidate a 30 blob of boyz relatively quick, and if a knight army does that to 2 mobz a turn (only need to kill 30-40 to wipe them out with morale) he will win by turn 4 easily. but hey fun stuff right?
You obviously haven't read it. It's a guide for playing against knights.
Most tactics in that post work perfectly fine for orks, especially when facing only a single knight. For example, just surrounding the knight with orks or gretchin instead of charging it is a very good hint - it cannot move over infantry unless stuck in combat, and most armies have no way of killing models until movement is over.
The most dangerous knight to us right now is the dual gatling renegade knight (imperium can't take that one), which kills about 20 boyz per turn (15 with KFF protection) if it has used the 2 CP stratagem to re-roll all hits. Over the course of a game it will kill about 450-600 points of boyz, which is easily more than what the knight costs.
So, i was at an event last weekend, and there was a lot of talk between some people about the Ork codex.
Essentially, from what we can gather from the hints coming from known play testers, is that the Ork codex has gone back for a re-write. I'm not sure how long ago it happened or how much the release date has changed but it sounds like they messed up MASSIVELY with it.
Essentially, it's been said that the codex was perfect for open play and narrative.
However, it was a diabolically broken rule set for matched play. And i mean EXTREMELY broken.
The main point issue (though apparently there were several) was that they were allowed to infiltrate their entire army in deployment or turn 1 (don't know which).
Which, as you can image..... .... ....... .....
I don't have any names or sources to give you, only what was being discussed in hushed voices by certain groups of players.
Kdash wrote: So, i was at an event last weekend, and there was a lot of talk between some people about the Ork codex.
Essentially, from what we can gather from the hints coming from known play testers, is that the Ork codex has gone back for a re-write. I'm not sure how long ago it happened or how much the release date has changed but it sounds like they messed up MASSIVELY with it.
Essentially, it's been said that the codex was perfect for open play and narrative.
However, it was a diabolically broken rule set for matched play. And i mean EXTREMELY broken.
The main point issue (though apparently there were several) was that they were allowed to infiltrate their entire army in deployment or turn 1 (don't know which).
Which, as you can image..... .... ....... .....
I don't have any names or sources to give you, only what was being discussed in hushed voices by certain groups of players.
I wonder what that means if true. How long is the lead time on a codex, from finished writing to available? I mean I guess this could be a much smaller window if they know they have to hurry but still.. I also wonder how much something like this would screw up their schedule for the coming months.. White dwarf and not to mention quartely reports would surely be affected, right?
When you say broken, did you get any sense if it was "too good" broken or "unplayable" broken? Because I assume it's more than just one clan having a infiltrate ability that's far too good, that seems like something an errata would fix
Kdash wrote: So, i was at an event last weekend, and there was a lot of talk between some people about the Ork codex.
Essentially, from what we can gather from the hints coming from known play testers, is that the Ork codex has gone back for a re-write. I'm not sure how long ago it happened or how much the release date has changed but it sounds like they messed up MASSIVELY with it.
Essentially, it's been said that the codex was perfect for open play and narrative.
However, it was a diabolically broken rule set for matched play. And i mean EXTREMELY broken.
The main point issue (though apparently there were several) was that they were allowed to infiltrate their entire army in deployment or turn 1 (don't know which).
Which, as you can image..... .... ....... .....
I don't have any names or sources to give you, only what was being discussed in hushed voices by certain groups of players.
If GW is actually sending orks back for a re-write, that is a good thing though. It means that they care enough to get it right to scrap something that has already cost a lot of money to make it better.
I'm also quite happy that a clutch like "they can't into combat and get shot apart turn1? Infiltrate all the orks!" got the axe. I would very much prefer orks getting into combat via trukk, wagon and bikes again.
Kdash wrote: So, i was at an event last weekend, and there was a lot of talk between some people about the Ork codex.
Essentially, from what we can gather from the hints coming from known play testers, is that the Ork codex has gone back for a re-write. I'm not sure how long ago it happened or how much the release date has changed but it sounds like they messed up MASSIVELY with it.
Essentially, it's been said that the codex was perfect for open play and narrative.
However, it was a diabolically broken rule set for matched play. And i mean EXTREMELY broken.
The main point issue (though apparently there were several) was that they were allowed to infiltrate their entire army in deployment or turn 1 (don't know which).
Which, as you can image..... .... ....... .....
I don't have any names or sources to give you, only what was being discussed in hushed voices by certain groups of players.
I wonder what that means if true. How long is the lead time on a codex, from finished writing to available? I mean I guess this could be a much smaller window if they know they have to hurry but still.. I also wonder how much something like this would screw up their schedule for the coming months.. White dwarf and not to mention quartely reports would surely be affected, right?
When you say broken, did you get any sense if it was "too good" broken or "unplayable" broken? Because I assume it's more than just one clan having a infiltrate ability that's far too good, that seems like something an errata would fix
I got the impression that it was completely game breakingly broken.
I'm not sure if it was a faction, clan or stratagem thing, but it had such a massive impact on the game that it made orks completely unplayable for most armies - if not all.
Kdash wrote: So, i was at an event last weekend, and there was a lot of talk between some people about the Ork codex.
Essentially, from what we can gather from the hints coming from known play testers, is that the Ork codex has gone back for a re-write. I'm not sure how long ago it happened or how much the release date has changed but it sounds like they messed up MASSIVELY with it.
Essentially, it's been said that the codex was perfect for open play and narrative.
However, it was a diabolically broken rule set for matched play. And i mean EXTREMELY broken.
The main point issue (though apparently there were several) was that they were allowed to infiltrate their entire army in deployment or turn 1 (don't know which).
Which, as you can image..... .... ....... .....
I don't have any names or sources to give you, only what was being discussed in hushed voices by certain groups of players.
If GW is actually sending orks back for a re-write, that is a good thing though. It means that they care enough to get it right to scrap something that has already cost a lot of money to make it better.
I'm also quite happy that a clutch like "they can't into combat and get shot apart turn1? Infiltrate all the orks!" got the axe. I would very much prefer orks getting into combat via trukk, wagon and bikes again.
I fully agree, and if it is true (i'm pretty much feeling a 99% true from the impressions i got and the chat) it is a big "win" for GWs playtesting "project"... Not that they'd use their common sense and come out and say so.
I'm not sure how to feel hearing about this really. It's good from the perspective that they at least cared enough to fix it. Hopefully by removing the broken bits from the codex they add some new stuff to balance it up and maybe give it a little extra bit of love considering how late it is.. At the same time I fear this means we get our codex Q1 2019, hopefully these rumours represent something that happened a while back but it's getting tough drowning out the pessimist in me
Billagio wrote: I think thats the first time ive ever heard of something being "Broken" for orks and being in a "Overpowered" way and not "shiity/unuseable" way
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: I'm not sure how to feel hearing about this really. It's good from the perspective that they at least cared enough to fix it. Hopefully by removing the broken bits from the codex they add some new stuff to balance it up and maybe give it a little extra bit of love considering how late it is.. At the same time I fear this means we get our codex Q1 2019, hopefully these rumours represent something that happened a while back but it's getting tough drowning out the pessimist in me
Hopefully it isn't something that will take too much time to resolve, but, i am a bit concerned about time scales myself.
Really was expecting to be on codex round 2.0 in the next month or so, but i guess waiting for big FAQ 2 and CA 2018 will change things up first.
If nothing had gone to print until after play testing, then i can't help but think a couple of months max - based on what happened with the big faq being re-tested and re-written (and that had larger implications across the board, rather than just 1 army). So, based on that, we might see a quicker turn around.
Wishlisting again, but it would be actually really awesome and fix a lot of our issues if they made the KFF affect units and not models ala 4th edition. Simple change that would help out walker heavy lists and green tide as well. I dont think its that game breaking of an idea with how much more shooting and anti hoard every army can bring nowadays
Jidmah wrote: You obviously haven't read it. It's a guide for playing against knights.
Most tactics in that post work perfectly fine for orks, especially when facing only a single knight. For example, just surrounding the knight with orks or gretchin instead of charging it is a very good hint - it cannot move over infantry unless stuck in combat, and most armies have no way of killing models until movement is over.
The most dangerous knight to us right now is the dual gatling renegade knight (imperium can't take that one), which kills about 20 boyz per turn (15 with KFF protection) if it has used the 2 CP stratagem to re-roll all hits. Over the course of a game it will kill about 450-600 points of boyz, which is easily more than what the knight costs.
Kdash wrote: So, i was at an event last weekend, and there was a lot of talk between some people about the Ork codex.
Essentially, from what we can gather from the hints coming from known play testers, is that the Ork codex has gone back for a re-write. I'm not sure how long ago it happened or how much the release date has changed but it sounds like they messed up MASSIVELY with it.
Essentially, it's been said that the codex was perfect for open play and narrative.
However, it was a diabolically broken rule set for matched play. And i mean EXTREMELY broken.
The main point issue (though apparently there were several) was that they were allowed to infiltrate their entire army in deployment or turn 1 (don't know which).
Which, as you can image..... .... ....... .....
I don't have any names or sources to give you, only what was being discussed in hushed voices by certain groups of players.
Sounds like bs to me.
A few things to consider -
1. I don't think GW have ever made Orks broken good.
2. I can't see the playtesters having such an impact on release schedules.
3. Many other codexes have released with totally broken things that were not fixed prior to release.
4. I could not imagine any circumstance where GW allowed an entire Ork army to infiltrate/deep strike/forward deploy turn one. It would render certain units completely useless and redundant.
5. Its not really an Orkish thing, much more GSC.
This feels to me like some hard trolling. 'Orks were strong but are preemptively nerfed lol', doesn't sound legit at all.
Kdash wrote: So, i was at an event last weekend, and there was a lot of talk between some people about the Ork codex.
Essentially, from what we can gather from the hints coming from known play testers, is that the Ork codex has gone back for a re-write. I'm not sure how long ago it happened or how much the release date has changed but it sounds like they messed up MASSIVELY with it.
Essentially, it's been said that the codex was perfect for open play and narrative.
However, it was a diabolically broken rule set for matched play. And i mean EXTREMELY broken.
The main point issue (though apparently there were several) was that they were allowed to infiltrate their entire army in deployment or turn 1 (don't know which).
Which, as you can image..... .... ....... .....
I don't have any names or sources to give you, only what was being discussed in hushed voices by certain groups of players.
Sounds like bs to me.
A few things to consider -
1. I don't think GW have ever made Orks broken good.
2. I can't see the playtesters having such an impact on release schedules.
3. Many other codexes have released with totally broken things that were not fixed prior to release.
4. I could not imagine any circumstance where GW allowed an entire Ork army to infiltrate/deep strike/forward deploy turn one. It would render certain units completely useless and redundant.
5. Its not really an Orkish thing, much more GSC.
This feels to me like some hard trolling. 'Orks were strong but are preemptively nerfed lol', doesn't sound legit at all.
Agree
They did a lot of changes in the Big FAQ in ordet to avoid alfa strike lists.
Jidmah wrote: You obviously haven't read it. It's a guide for playing against knights.
Most tactics in that post work perfectly fine for orks, especially when facing only a single knight. For example, just surrounding the knight with orks or gretchin instead of charging it is a very good hint - it cannot move over infantry unless stuck in combat, and most armies have no way of killing models until movement is over.
The most dangerous knight to us right now is the dual gatling renegade knight (imperium can't take that one), which kills about 20 boyz per turn (15 with KFF protection) if it has used the 2 CP stratagem to re-roll all hits. Over the course of a game it will kill about 450-600 points of boyz, which is easily more than what the knight costs.
Did you count melee and morale in?
Melee yes (12 stomps), moral no, since it depends a lot on what else is shooting, how much models are left in the target mobs, etc. You should consider the renegade relic though, since it does -1 or -2 ld depending on how close you are.
As a rule of thumb I'd say it will wipe one unit per turn.
'Sup team, I've been playing nurgle daemons for the past 6 months (doing pretty well tbh) since the horde meta basically turned orks off in competitive town.
Anyway, titans have turned up and made things excellent for us again (I think), everyone's going to be running smash captains and titans. This is SUPER good for Orks IMO so I've decided to give them a go over my next few tournies.
Here's the list I'm going with (keeping in mind Australia is VERY super heavy). This is what I think is the most competitive list I can formulate in the current meta. It's very HQ heavy. I would love some critique:
give that big mek a grot oiler to round it out to 2000 points (or a kustom shoota on the warboss...some 4-point upgrade, whatever)...the 1996 is buggin me!
...but yeah, looks decent to me...a good amount of boyz, a good amount of KMK's, some fast stuff, some buffs, yeah, looks like a fairly solid take-all list really...switching something out for some tankbustas could be nice against some armies, but eh.
oh, and I'd probably give warlord to Gazza, and give him Legendary fighter, for an extra attack on the charge...not really sure what good the leadership WLT would do on the big mek...
been noticing this guy on the main post on the 40k facebook page (jerome swensen). hes been posting everyday for about a week asking if there's going to be any ork related news coming up. so far has only gotten a single non answer from the facebook guys (said he would keep posting until gw posts an article or something).(if you want to look at all of the the guys posts youll have to make sure the facebook comments are set to "new" and then you can see his comments going back about a week).
so, what you guys think? is it worth hounding the Facebook guys with constant questions? would it be worth while for us to try joining in?
personally im not sure of what to think of this. this is on the facebook page so no telling if these questions will ever be relayed to GW proper, but its much more public and easier for the community to see there are many who are wanting to know about the greenskinz. in the past many here on dakka dakka have said to "email GW" or something like that, maybe instead of emails that can easily be mass trashed we can try flooding the main facebook post with our detest of "why no ork news" (of course if we do this it would be best to be civil). who knows, maybe gw might cave in and say something.
1. I don't think GW have ever made Orks broken good.
Rolling assaults from trukks, nob bikers.
Broken good Jidmah. Unless you can point me to all those tournament wins Orks picked up using this build, that far outweighed any other wins from another faction?
An Actual Englishman wrote: 3. Many other codexes have released with totally broken things that were not fixed prior to release.
Oh? Please do make a list.
Any army with an army-wide -1 to hit (bonus points if they can take cheap troops that gain -2 to hit).
Any army with the ability to 'forward operate' any unit.
3 ppm Conscripts.
Agent of Vect, the most broken stratagem in the game.
Flyrant spam.
The fact that soup exists with absolutely no negatives.
Missiles that can snipe characters without line of sight and remove their invulnerable save.
Slamguinius.
Flying models' immunity to cqc exploiting terrain.
been noticing this guy on the main post on the 40k facebook page (jerome swensen). hes been posting everyday for about a week asking if there's going to be any ork related news coming up. so far has only gotten a single non answer from the facebook guys (said he would keep posting until gw posts an article or something).(if you want to look at all of the the guys posts youll have to make sure the facebook comments are set to "new" and then you can see his comments going back about a week).
so, what you guys think? is it worth hounding the Facebook guys with constant questions? would it be worth while for us to try joining in?
personally im not sure of what to think of this. this is on the facebook page so no telling if these questions will ever be relayed to GW proper, but its much more public and easier for the community to see there are many who are wanting to know about the greenskinz. in the past many here on dakka dakka have said to "email GW" or something like that, maybe instead of emails that can easily be mass trashed we can try flooding the main facebook post with our detest of "why no ork news" (of course if we do this it would be best to be civil). who knows, maybe gw might cave in and say something.
oh yeah, because relentlessly nagging the hell out of someone always has the best possible outcome...
they'll release it when it's ready. I'm sure they must have a pretty keen idea of how many hungry ork players are out there who want their new shinies...and I'm sure they want to get stuff out as quickly as possible so we can all give them a ridiculous amount of money.
it's in everyone's interests to release this stuff, so they will, as soon as they can. No sense in giving the poor long-suffering social media crew even more grief than they already have to deal with...
hollow one wrote: Here's the list I'm going with (keeping in mind Australia is VERY super heavy). This is what I think is the most competitive list I can formulate in the current meta. It's very HQ heavy. I would love some critique:
Zhadsnark Da Ripper [7 PL, 122pts] . Da Beast: 2x Big Shoota
++ Total: [121 PL, 1996pts] ++
Sorry I've not been chatting, but yeah... wishlisting and complaining is not my style.
Painboy on a bike is, in my experience, a complete waste. You can afford to take 2 on foot if you take him out. Is there a particular reason you've left him in? Apart from that the list looks good but nothing really groundbreaking here... (hence the wishlisting/complaining).
E - stupid formatting, grumble.
geargutz wrote: (reposting this from the "Delicious, sweet, intoxicating Ork speculation/chat " thread)
been noticing this guy on the main post on the 40k facebook page (jerome swensen). hes been posting everyday for about a week asking if there's going to be any ork related news coming up. so far has only gotten a single non answer from the facebook guys (said he would keep posting until gw posts an article or something).(if you want to look at all of the the guys posts youll have to make sure the facebook comments are set to "new" and then you can see his comments going back about a week).
so, what you guys think? is it worth hounding the Facebook guys with constant questions? would it be worth while for us to try joining in?
personally im not sure of what to think of this. this is on the facebook page so no telling if these questions will ever be relayed to GW proper, but its much more public and easier for the community to see there are many who are wanting to know about the greenskinz. in the past many here on dakka dakka have said to "email GW" or something like that, maybe instead of emails that can easily be mass trashed we can try flooding the main facebook post with our detest of "why no ork news" (of course if we do this it would be best to be civil). who knows, maybe gw might cave in and say something.
I don't see the harm, personally. People forget that GW is a business. This Jerome fella is simply a potential customer telling a business what he wants, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. In many ways, GW should encourage it.
Also don't feel sorry for the social media team, you haven't put them in this position, their company has put them in this position. It is GW's decision not to release the Ork codex (still). It was GW's decision to say "codex coming soon" then release a ton of other things before it and give no further news. They're also paid to respond and deal with these sorts of social media queries, complaints etc. It is literally their job.
I would recommend bombarding every channel that GW has open, social media, their email etc until something is released, if it makes you feel better and if you think you might achieve something.
been noticing this guy on the main post on the 40k facebook page (jerome swensen). hes been posting everyday for about a week asking if there's going to be any ork related news coming up. so far has only gotten a single non answer from the facebook guys (said he would keep posting until gw posts an article or something).(if you want to look at all of the the guys posts youll have to make sure the facebook comments are set to "new" and then you can see his comments going back about a week).
so, what you guys think? is it worth hounding the Facebook guys with constant questions? would it be worth while for us to try joining in?
personally im not sure of what to think of this. this is on the facebook page so no telling if these questions will ever be relayed to GW proper, but its much more public and easier for the community to see there are many who are wanting to know about the greenskinz. in the past many here on dakka dakka have said to "email GW" or something like that, maybe instead of emails that can easily be mass trashed we can try flooding the main facebook post with our detest of "why no ork news" (of course if we do this it would be best to be civil). who knows, maybe gw might cave in and say something.
oh yeah, because relentlessly nagging the hell out of someone always has the best possible outcome...
they'll release it when it's ready. I'm sure they must have a pretty keen idea of how many hungry ork players are out there who want their new shinies...and I'm sure they want to get stuff out as quickly as possible so we can all give them a ridiculous amount of money.
it's in everyone's interests to release this stuff, so they will, as soon as they can. No sense in giving the poor long-suffering social media crew even more grief than they already have to deal with...
I bet they would completely underestimate and be ill prepared for a WAAAGH! to come flying to their next article and comment and respond 'WAAAGH!' in every nook and cranny of the community page. Might be fun to watch.
Any army with an army-wide -1 to hit (bonus points if they can take cheap troops that gain -2 to hit).
Any army with the ability to 'forward operate' any unit.
3 ppm Conscripts.
Agent of Vect, the most broken stratagem in the game.
Flyrant spam.
The fact that soup exists with absolutely no negatives.
Missiles that can snipe characters without line of sight and remove their invulnerable save.
Slamguinius.
Flying models' immunity to cqc exploiting terrain.
How's that to get you started?
While I certainly agree with most of these (especially army wide-1 to hit in a game where negative to hits stack) and that soup has no drawbacks whatsoever & flyers parking on ruins to avoid CC. However I really don't think the IK shieldbreaker missiles are that good, realistically they're not killing any somewhat decent character in one shot and I think they mostly work on putting fear into the opponent rather than pure effectiveness.
I mean, I could see that GW overlooked something they thought was a pretty basic clan tactic that playtesters figured you could combine with a stratagem to get some bonkers synergy. I don't think they would reprint a book for it but if this was like a rough PDF draft they send out to playtesters (don't know if this is actually how it works) for them to basically sign off on before starting to print the codexes then this scenario doesn't sound all that unlikely to me. As you stated, yes they have screwed up some stuff in the past, but maybe they're more careful now? The army wide -1 to hit hasn't been seen since what? Craftworlds? (Although I hope they FAQ those away or at least stacking negative modifiers)
PiñaColada wrote: ]While I certainly agree with most of these (especially army wide-1 to hit in a game where negative to hits stack) and that soup has no drawbacks whatsoever & flyers parking on ruins to avoid CC. However I really don't think the IK shieldbreaker missiles are that good, realistically they're not killing any somewhat decent character in one shot and I think they mostly work on putting fear into the opponent rather than pure effectiveness.
I mean, I could see that GW overlooked something they thought was a pretty basic clan tactic that playtesters figured you could combine with a stratagem to get some bonkers synergy. I don't think they would reprint a book for it but if this was like a rough PDF draft they send out to playtesters (don't know if this is actually how it works) for them to basically sign off on before starting to print the codexes then this scenario doesn't sound all that unlikely to me. As you stated, yes they have screwed up some stuff in the past, but maybe they're more careful now? The army wide -1 to hit hasn't been seen since what? Craftworlds? (Although I hope they FAQ those away or at least stacking negative modifiers)
Well since you've provided a very reasonable response I'll concede the IK shieldbreaker missile, perhaps it isn't as scary as I believe.
I really don't think the playtesters sign anything off for GW mind. I think the playtesters are the final step before GW release the book and effectively give them ideas that will go into the first FAQ for that specific codex.
On this, Reece of FLG fame stated that he couldn't wait to see what effect the Ork release would have on the Ork community. He believed we'd be very, very happy with what's coming. This implies to me that he knows exactly what's in it and is in direct opposition to the idea that any delay is because of a rewrite. As others have stated, if a rewrite had happened, I suspect it would have taken place before 8th was released or at the start of 8th releasing. There's no way GW would let it impact too much on their planned schedule. Also for what reason is the SW book delayed? Did it also have to go back for a rewrite? I don't know I'm just not buying it.
Well since you've provided a very reasonable response I'll concede the IK shieldbreaker missile, perhaps it isn't as scary as I believe.
I really don't think the playtesters sign anything off for GW mind. I think the playtesters are the final step before GW release the book and effectively give them ideas that will go into the first FAQ for that specific codex.
On this, Reece of FLG fame stated that he couldn't wait to see what effect the Ork release would have on the Ork community. He believed we'd be very, very happy with what's coming. This implies to me that he knows exactly what's in it and is in direct opposition to the idea that any delay is because of a rewrite. As others have stated, if a rewrite had happened, I suspect it would have taken place before 8th was released or at the start of 8th releasing. There's no way GW would let it impact too much on their planned schedule. Also for what reason is the SW book delayed? Did it also have to go back for a rewrite? I don't know I'm just not buying it.
Well, hopefully Reece knows what he's talking about then! After having thought about it for a while, I think (assuming the rumour of a delay is true) that they probably wanted to release the codex a lot earlier than this, maybe around Blood Angels or slightly thereafter, to soothe us left behind Ork players. I guess that would make more sense if they then came up with the idea that a lot of deepstriking turn 1 is bad for the big FAQ and had to rewite a lot of it to work properly.
But then again, why would Kdash be hearing about it now and not months ago? And it still wouldn't explain GWs decision to announce Orks and SW months ago and then go into radio silence. That seems like such a weird, and easily avoidable, mistake. Just say that those codexes will hit late summer/early fall and there would be mild protests but go over a lot smoother than this. I just hope that a lot of my warbike charcters will be index only options basically guaranteeing them to be gone when 9th comes around.
hmm,well if reece says that we will be pleased with the ork codex then ill...assume its not that great.
reece on record isnt the best judge of orks. i like the man and his enthusiasm for orks, but its telling that he hasnt acknowledged his mistakes with orks, or hasnt showed any ork games after the one time he tried to do a dreddmob.
while i dont like to label people as shills when it comes to the warhammer community, its hard to keep that policy when reece says "wow, stompas are so amazing, sooo good"
Reece made a lot of mistakes at ork unit evaluations. Stompas, burnas, trukkboyz.
So, i wouldn't be too relaxed before i actually get the book in hand. And a month after as the nerfs start rolling along as it would turn out orks would be able to not auto-loose to knights or something unacceptable like this.
1. I don't think GW have ever made Orks broken good.
Rolling assaults from trukks, nob bikers.
Broken good Jidmah. Unless you can point me to all those tournament wins Orks picked up using this build, that far outweighed any other wins from another faction?
Sure, because tournament results got digitalized and put online in 2008 on platforms that are still online today.
Multiple nob bikers was one of the top builds in 4th and the unit still remained competitive all through 5th.
Nob bikers were broken good until the 5th edition IG and SW codex dropped because long fangs and leaf blower could instant-death them. They were a super-fast T4(5), 4+ cover/5++/5+ FNP, ignored the first 5-7 wounds dealt to the unit and hit hard enough to wipe out most units in the game. If they still did that in 8th, they would still be good.
Afterwards, both Kan wall and battlewagon bash remained highly competitive choices that regularly placed in the top 3 of tournaments. Go search the battle-report forum for dashofpepper if you need proof.
An Actual Englishman wrote: 3. Many other codexes have released with totally broken things that were not fixed prior to release.
Oh? Please do make a list.
Any army with an army-wide -1 to hit (bonus points if they can take cheap troops that gain -2 to hit).
So, eldar pathfinders are now "totally broken". You should post that on one of the eldar tactics threads, it might lighten their mood.
Also, vanilla marines are "totally broken" now. Are you trying to trollbait Marmatag and Xenomancer into this thread?
The only other army is alpha legion.
Yes, army-wide -1 to hit is BS, and everyone, including GW, knows that by now. All three codices with access to this were printed before the release of 8th edition, no codex was released with army-wide -1 to hit after the problem was identified.
So, while the traits are especially gruesome to orks, Raven Guard has basically zero showing in competitive games, Alpha Legion tends to be limited to some slanesh units that shoot twice and cultists, leaving only alaitoc as -1 to hit sub-faction with major competitive archievements.
Any army with the ability to 'forward operate' any unit.
You might have fallen to paranoia, just because everyone might be an operative of the Alpha Legion, does not mean every army has the ability to use their stratagem.
One army can do this.
3 ppm Conscripts.
Yeah, that went well. So you are asking for GW to release our codex, improve point costs by 33% on boyz, put a downside on them and then change mob rule to kill models during moral checks instead of protecting them. Is that what you want? Cool.
Agent of Vect, the most broken stratagem in the game.
Have you actually played against that stratagem? Even with a brigade on the board, they will run dry on CP by turn 2, with you still having access to a ton of your CP. Unless your army relies on some sort of stratagem-combo, Agent of Vect is nowhere as powerful as "fight again", "shoot again", "deep-strike and charge 3d6" or "deploy this unit within charge range".
Flyrant spam.
Awesome, so for the ork codex you want:
1) One OP, spammable unit
2) A game wide-rule changes that makes that unit impossible to use before turn 2
The fact that soup exists with absolutely no negatives.
Yeah, definitely something that GW has written into many codices.
Missiles that can snipe characters without line of sight and remove their invulnerable save.
Fun fact: For the points of a dominus-class knight, you can have nine koptas or three burna bommer and two blitza bommers carpet-bombing a character of your choice with zero CP investment.
Orks are "totally broken"!
Another fun fact: dominus-class knights see next to no competitive play.
Slamguinius.
I'm sure GW caught that 1 relic+3 stratagem combo before release, but thought it to a fun narrative to forge and left it in the codex.
But yes, that one is actually totally broken.
Flying models' immunity to cqc exploiting terrain.
Totally unlike eldar wave serpents sitting on impassible terrain for the last five editions. This has been part of the game since its beginning.
Also not a real problem. Shoot a hole into the unit sitting in the ruin, charge nob in there. Enjoy being safe from combat because they can't fall back while more boyz move to where the nob has caused casualties.
Oh, and orks also have flying units.
So, let's take count of all armies that actually have more than a single "totally broken" datasheet:
1) Eldar
2) CSM Alpha Legion
Spoiler:
More like "Two out of 19 codexes have released with totally broken things that were not fixed prior to release."
You are actively asking GW to gak all over balance because you want totally broken things.
Shame on you.
How's that to get you started?
I'm getting more and more disgusted by the whining of all the ork players on dakka. Maybe you should start painting your orks orange and have them count as tau. Only fish men are going to survive this deluge of tears.
There will be an ork codex soon, and yet everyone here is acting like a spoiled child that wants its new toyz now and not wait for Christmas.
And no, you are not entitled to have it now for any reason.
And no, you are not entitled to have it now for any reason.
tldr
hey, orks weren't bad around...4th or 5th edition?you should feel ashamed to want a broken codex because reasons.
jidmah your whole idea of ork players seems to be we are whiny spoiled rich kids. complaining about getting a Ferrari instead if a Ashton martin.
not all of us played during the erra of broken ork builds and have only known neglect.
as long as we have squig dung to work with we we will rightfully complain and we will not just bend over and take it. and no amount of "you should be glad your model line exists" arguments will stop it.
also, if your soo tired of us feel free to stop reading. maybe you can make a new thread that is all about "positivity and rainbows and orks and grots playing in the sand laughing", or you can realize this is dakkadakka, that this is the internet. in real life a decent person doesn't jabber all their troubles with a toy soldiers game with strangers, but this is the land of anonymous like minded and opposed individuals, expect flame wars and negativity. welcome to the internet, have you been here long?
And no, you are not entitled to have it now for any reason.
tldr
hey, orks weren't bad around...4th or 5th edition?you should feel ashamed to want a broken codex because reasons.
jidmah your whole idea of ork players seems to be we are whiny spoiled rich kids. complaining about getting a Ferrari instead if a Ashton martin.
You are literally complaining about getting a Ferrari in what's worst case October instead of now.
not all of us played during the erra of broken ork builds and have only known neglect.
English duded claimed orks never had anything OP. He is wrong, we even had weirdboyz spam this edition. There is no more to it but me hating polemics.
as long as we have squig dung to work with we we will rightfully complain and we will not just bend over and take it. and no amount of "you should be glad your model line exists" arguments will stop it.
I guess my post was too long for you and you didn't read it.
GW is making a codex, right now. If the rumor is true, they have failed to meet their deadline in order to make a better codex. Do you really think a codex relying on one overpowered gimmick will survive past the next CA?
In this edition, that gimmick will get hit with the nerf-hammer and we will be stuck with a terrible codex again.
You are literally complaining about getting a Ferrari in what's worst case October instead of now. .
While I do agree that these forums can sometimes become a bit to whiny (and I myself am certainly partly to blame for that in some instances) I think this analogy is somewhat flawed. Many of us are worried we're getting a Yugo in October/Orktober. I would love some new models but as long as the codex itself is well thought out and has more viable builds than simply spamming 200 boys then I'll be pretty happy.
I just think GW are making it more difficult on themselves than they have to. It's like with the March big FAQ and no-one knew what sort of scope that thing would have and people came up with intricate new mechanics and balance fixes so when it finally came along a lot of people just felt sort of underwhelmed. This was also aggravated due to the fact that they were not really clear that individual erratas were also updated. Now, obviously we can argue whether that critisism is even fair but as a general rule it's really difficult to go wrong with a more open communication. I think overall GW has handled 8th edition really well and it's just a shame that we don't really know what to expect now. Is it the end of the world? No, but this an outlet for a lot of people so I don't necessarily think (mild) complaining is all that bad as it at least indicates passion for the hobby..
But to be clear, I wouldn't want our codex to be released with some broken gimmick either
Jidmah, I'll respond to your wall of flame and inconsistencies when I'm next at my laptop but I seriously suggest you take 5 minutes away from this thread and possibly this board.
Your attitude on a number of responses has been disgraceful and you're rapidly losing credibility. I thought you were supposed to be the go to Orkish tactician? If you can't see the value of Agents of Vect I'm doubting you play competitive at all.
Jidmah - your response:
Spoiler:
Jidmah wrote: Sure, because tournament results got digitalized and put online in 2008 on platforms that are still online today.
Multiple nob bikers was one of the top builds in 4th and the unit still remained competitive all through 5th.
Nob bikers were broken good until the 5th edition IG and SW codex dropped because long fangs and leaf blower could instant-death them. They were a super-fast T4(5), 4+ cover/5++/5+ FNP, ignored the first 5-7 wounds dealt to the unit and hit hard enough to wipe out most units in the game. If they still did that in 8th, they would still be good.
Afterwards, both Kan wall and battlewagon bash remained highly competitive choices that regularly placed in the top 3 of tournaments. Go search the battle-report forum for dashofpepper if you need proof.
Aaaah sorry so we were competitive in 4th edition. 1 outta 8 aint bad I suppose. I said BROKEN good Jidmah, I don't believe Nob bikers were ever BROKEN good because as you've said, they could be insta-gibbed.
Jidmah wrote: So, eldar pathfinders are now "totally broken". You should post that on one of the eldar tactics threads, it might lighten their mood.
Also, vanilla marines are "totally broken" now. Are you trying to trollbait Marmatag and Xenomancer into this thread?
No? But army-wide -1 to hit is. As I stated.
Jidmah wrote: The only other army is alpha legion.
Yes, army-wide -1 to hit is BS, and everyone, including GW, knows that by now. All three codices with access to this were printed before the release of 8th edition, no codex was released with army-wide -1 to hit after the problem was identified.
So, while the traits are especially gruesome to orks, Raven Guard has basically zero showing in competitive games, Alpha Legion tends to be limited to some slanesh units that shoot twice and cultists, leaving only alaitoc as -1 to hit sub-faction with major competitive archievements.
I disagree, both Alpha Legion and Raven Guard make appearances (and do well) at tournaments. Space Marines win more tournaments than people think and Alpha Legion is one of the strongest CSM builds going. Also, doesn't the fact that GW stopped giving it as a trait kinda prove my point?
Jidmah wrote: You might have fallen to paranoia, just because everyone might be an operative of the Alpha Legion, does not mean every army has the ability to use their stratagem.
One army can do this.
Insulting me isn't going to change the fact that multiple armies have units and stratagems with a similar if not identical ability.....
Jidmah wrote: Yeah, that went well. So you are asking for GW to release our codex, improve point costs by 33% on boyz, put a downside on them and then change mob rule to kill models during moral checks instead of protecting them. Is that what you want? Cool.
So here's when you really start to move the goalposts. In the context of this discussion (I don't believe GW would hold back a codex based off of play tester feedback) the bold above is entirely irrelevant. You asked me to list things that were released broken from a codex. I have done that. What happened to those things after and how they were fixed if anything plays into my argument because it confirms that GW are happy to release codexes that have broken things in them, with the intention of fixing them later. I never anywhere said I think Boyz should get the same treatment as Conscripts, not sure why you brought this into the conversation really.
Jidmah wrote: Have you actually played against that stratagem? Even with a brigade on the board, they will run dry on CP by turn 2, with you still having access to a ton of your CP. Unless your army relies on some sort of stratagem-combo, Agent of Vect is nowhere as powerful as "fight again", "shoot again", "deep-strike and charge 3d6" or "deploy this unit within charge range".
Any player with an ounce of a brain will save AOV for cancelling the key stratagem that would make a massive difference in a game. It is by far the most powerful stratagem in the game and, in my opinion if GW won't give an equivalent to every race it has no place with Dark Eldar. It is literally game changing and has been meta breaking. Obviously it is borderline useless against Orks, because, guess what, we don't have (m)any stratagems worth cancelling yet!!!1111one (because we don't have a codex)
Jidmah wrote: Awesome, so for the ork codex you want:
1) One OP, spammable unit
2) A game wide-rule changes that makes that unit impossible to use before turn 2
Moving the goalposts again I see. No, I never anywhere said I wanted what you've stated above. It's another case of this; In the context of this discussion (I don't believe GW would hold back a codex based off of play tester feedback) the bold above is entirely irrelevant. You asked me to list things that were released broken from a codex. I have done that. What happened to those things after and how they were fixed if anything plays into my argument because it confirms that GW are happy to release codexes that have broken things in them, with the intention of fixing them later.
Jidmah wrote: Yeah, definitely something that GW has written into many codices.
Literally over half the codexes in the game, possibly over 2/3s can soup. It is QUITE LITERALLY written into the majority of their codexes.
Fun fact: For the points of a dominus-class knight, you can have nine koptas or three burna bommer and two blitza bommers carpet-bombing a character of your choice with zero CP investment.
Orks are "totally broken"!
Another fun fact: dominus-class knights see next to no competitive play.
I conceded the point on the missiles earlier, see previous post.
I'm sure GW caught that 1 relic+3 stratagem combo before release, but thought it to a fun narrative to forge and left it in the codex.
But yes, that one is actually totally broken.
Hallelujah!
Jidmah wrote: Totally unlike eldar wave serpents sitting on impassible terrain for the last five editions. This has been part of the game since its beginning.
Also not a real problem. Shoot a hole into the unit sitting in the ruin, charge nob in there. Enjoy being safe from combat because they can't fall back while more boyz move to where the nob has caused casualties.
Oh, and orks also have flying units.
It absolutely is a problem. Yes, it's the same problem as Eldar Wave Serpents sitting on impassible terrain from previous editions, gak that was supposed to be fixed. Not sure if you're aware but if you can't get a model to balance in a space within 1" of where a flying unit resides you can't get into cc with it. So you're up creek. That includes all those superstar flying Ork units you mention, by the way.
Jidmah wrote: So, let's take count of all armies that actually have more than a single "totally broken" datasheet:
1) Eldar
2) CSM Alpha Legion
More like "Two out of 19 codexes have released with totally broken things that were not fixed prior to release."
What? Are you actually mental or something? Tyranids (Flyrants), Blood Angels (Slam - as admitted by you earlier), IG (Conscripts), SM (Raven Guard), CSM (Alpha Legion), Craftworld (flying tanks, Alaitoc), Dark Eldar (AoV), IK (look at recent tournament results).
You didn't ask for an exhaustive list. Stop moving the goalposts. I just gave a few quick examples off the top of my head. If you want an exhaustive list I'm sure we can throw a few more codexes into the mix.
Jidmah wrote: You are actively asking GW to gak all over balance because you want totally broken things.
Shame on you.
Excuse me? Where the feth did I state this? Care to share? Also care to stop strawmanning?
I'm getting more and more disgusted by the whining of all the ork players on dakka. Maybe you should start painting your orks orange and have them count as tau. Only fish men are going to survive this deluge of tears.
There will be an ork codex soon, and yet everyone here is acting like a spoiled child that wants its new toyz now and not wait for Christmas.
And no, you are not entitled to have it now for any reason.
If you're disgusted by the Ork players in this community leave Jidmah, nobody forces you to stay. If you think the way our community has been treated (which has been VASTLY different to every other codex release, bar Space Wolves) is acceptable then more fool you.
The reason we want the codex sooner rather than later is because we're sick of taking Boyz spam, we're sick of having no fun stratagems to use, we're sick of being one dimensional and we're sick of getting spanked by our mates' armies. Frankly, the game is not fun to play with Orks as they are now. It's why people are leaving. Maybe you love Green Tide, if so good for you. I don't and I'd like to have other viable options to play. As it is we don't have any. If you think that's OK, given that our codex was announced over 2 months ago (and has no date associated with it's release, no new models have been confirmed and basically no Ork news exists at all) then that's great for you. I don't though and I'm entitled to voice my opinion however the feth I want whether that's on here or on facebook.
GW is not your friend. It's a business. You need to treat it like one.
Kdash wrote: So, i was at an event last weekend, and there was a lot of talk between some people about the Ork codex.
Essentially, from what we can gather from the hints coming from known play testers, is that the Ork codex has gone back for a re-write. I'm not sure how long ago it happened or how much the release date has changed but it sounds like they messed up MASSIVELY with it.
Essentially, it's been said that the codex was perfect for open play and narrative.
However, it was a diabolically broken rule set for matched play. And i mean EXTREMELY broken.
The main point issue (though apparently there were several) was that they were allowed to infiltrate their entire army in deployment or turn 1 (don't know which).
Which, as you can image..... .... ....... .....
I don't have any names or sources to give you, only what was being discussed in hushed voices by certain groups of players.
Sounds like bs to me.
A few things to consider -
1. I don't think GW have ever made Orks broken good.
2. I can't see the playtesters having such an impact on release schedules.
3. Many other codexes have released with totally broken things that were not fixed prior to release.
4. I could not imagine any circumstance where GW allowed an entire Ork army to infiltrate/deep strike/forward deploy turn one. It would render certain units completely useless and redundant.
5. Its not really an Orkish thing, much more GSC.
This feels to me like some hard trolling. 'Orks were strong but are preemptively nerfed lol', doesn't sound legit at all.
While i accept that it's likely never going to be officially stated one way or another, i think you are looking at future releases with a pre-8th view.
I accept that GW has never really made Orks broken before, however, that doesn't mean they haven't unintentionally done so with the 8th ed codex. This wave of codices has been different to past editions imo, and with the amount of faqs and altering being done on the sidelines it opens up a lot of potential for unintended issues to arise. As i said before, Orks are/were in a fantastic spot narratively and open play wise, however, there were big issues identified with how they supposedly work with the current matched play rules.
While i agree that i'd expect most playtester feedback gets a glance over and likely gets slated for an faq or CA adjustment, i think it generally depends on the level of response. If the vast majority of play testers come back and say "look, this is incredibly broken and needs fixing asap" then it's going to get a response. Whether it affects release schedules, we'll never really know - but, we already know they are willing to push release dates back based on feedback and matched play events. All i can say is that i'm led to believe that the level of response to testing this codex has been incredibly strong. It could all be completely ok and on time, but, it certainly wasn't the impression i was given.
I concede that other codices were released with broken units within them, but, i think this is more of an army wide issue, as opposed to something that could be countered by a CA points increase or already limited by the rule of 3. I don't know whether the "infiltrate" everything was a stratagem, clan trait or an army trait - if it is a stratagem or clan trait, then it can be fixed easily enough, if it was more of an army trait then it depends. Unfortunately we are working off limited information.
I think that is also part of the problem. Not only does it render some Ork units redundant (but lets face it there are redundant units in every codex), but it also seriously impacts other armies and their units. One example used was that pure Knight armies were essentially shut down turn 1. All we can do currently is presume that the original rules and/or testing began prior to Big FAQ 1 and that they are written in a way that allows them to get around the turn 1 deepstrike. Again, this could simply just be a Blood Axe thing as someone theorised on here - but, you also need to take into account that there is a reason everyone plays Alaitoc Craftworld. There is a reason everyone takes a Black Heart detachment etc etc. If one clan is significantly more powerful than the rest, it is the only one that is going to get used outside of "beer and pretzel" games.
If it all turns out to be completely wrong, then, so be it. But, currently it is not the feeling and impression i got from the discussions i was privy to. It is now just over 2 months since we had the WC article saying Wolves and Orks were next. With the understandable delay due to Kill Team and Titanicus, we'll hopefully start seeing some more news either way - in regards to the Wolves codex, soon.
Kdash wrote: While i accept that it's likely never going to be officially stated one way or another, i think you are looking at future releases with a pre-8th view.
I accept that GW has never really made Orks broken before, however, that doesn't mean they haven't unintentionally done so with the 8th ed codex. This wave of codices has been different to past editions imo, and with the amount of faqs and altering being done on the sidelines it opens up a lot of potential for unintended issues to arise. As i said before, Orks are/were in a fantastic spot narratively and open play wise, however, there were big issues identified with how they supposedly work with the current matched play rules.
While i agree that i'd expect most playtester feedback gets a glance over and likely gets slated for an faq or CA adjustment, i think it generally depends on the level of response. If the vast majority of play testers come back and say "look, this is incredibly broken and needs fixing asap" then it's going to get a response. Whether it affects release schedules, we'll never really know - but, we already know they are willing to push release dates back based on feedback and matched play events. All i can say is that i'm led to believe that the level of response to testing this codex has been incredibly strong. It could all be completely ok and on time, but, it certainly wasn't the impression i was given.
I concede that other codices were released with broken units within them, but, i think this is more of an army wide issue, as opposed to something that could be countered by a CA points increase or already limited by the rule of 3. I don't know whether the "infiltrate" everything was a stratagem, clan trait or an army trait - if it is a stratagem or clan trait, then it can be fixed easily enough, if it was more of an army trait then it depends. Unfortunately we are working off limited information.
I think that is also part of the problem. Not only does it render some Ork units redundant (but lets face it there are redundant units in every codex), but it also seriously impacts other armies and their units. One example used was that pure Knight armies were essentially shut down turn 1. All we can do currently is presume that the original rules and/or testing began prior to Big FAQ 1 and that they are written in a way that allows them to get around the turn 1 deepstrike. Again, this could simply just be a Blood Axe thing as someone theorised on here - but, you also need to take into account that there is a reason everyone plays Alaitoc Craftworld. There is a reason everyone takes a Black Heart detachment etc etc. If one clan is significantly more powerful than the rest, it is the only one that is going to get used outside of "beer and pretzel" games.
If it all turns out to be completely wrong, then, so be it. But, currently it is not the feeling and impression i got from the discussions i was privy to. It is now just over 2 months since we had the WC article saying Wolves and Orks were next. With the understandable delay due to Kill Team and Titanicus, we'll hopefully start seeing some more news either way - in regards to the Wolves codex, soon.
Ah listen man, I appreciate you bringing this news to the table. It might be true, it might not be, I know where I stand on the subject (for reasons previously stated) but I'm certainly not going to beef with you if you think it is true. As I see it you're just the messenger and you're just trying to give people more information. Let's be honest we're pretty hungry for information at the moment.
I just can't envisage GW making a clan trait "everyone gets deepstrike". That would obviously be carnage. I also can't envisage that there'd be a way to stack relics, stratagems etc so effectively the entire army could DS that wouldn't require a simple fix (remove said relic, make it unique to a certain clan, change the interaction with the other offending thing etc). It just doesn't make sense to me, particularly given GW's propensity to go for maximum cash at any possible opportunity, regardless of balance. I think the real reason SW and Orks have not yet released is because GW believe they'll make more money releasing something else right now.
By the way, when firing a bubblehukka I have to declare the target before me and my opponent roll the dice for stats, right? Unlike obliterators that is.
I wanna try and use the bubblechukka more since it's the orkiest weapon ever with all it's crazy randomness but it's just so expensive.. Having the ability to choose a target after rolling for stats would at least help it a little bit.
An Actual Englishman wrote: If you're disgusted by the Ork players in this community leave Jidmah, nobody forces you to stay. If you think the way our community has been treated (which has been VASTLY different to every other codex release, bar Space Wolves) is acceptable then more fool you.
The reason we want the codex sooner rather than later is because we're sick of taking Boyz spam, we're sick of having no fun stratagems to use, we're sick of being one dimensional and we're sick of getting spanked by our mates' armies. Frankly, the game is not fun to play with Orks as they are now. It's why people are leaving. Maybe you love Green Tide, if so good for you. I don't and I'd like to have other viable options to play. As it is we don't have any. If you think that's OK, given that our codex was announced over 2 months ago (and has no date associated with it's release, no new models have been confirmed and basically no Ork news exists at all) then that's great for you. I don't though and I'm entitled to voice my opinion however the feth I want whether that's on here or on facebook.
GW is not your friend. It's a business. You need to treat it like one.
First of all, I think an apology is due, my annoyance with the ork community has been building over a while, and I undeservedly made you the lightning rod for that pent up anger.
I still want to clarify why I'm annoyed with all those ork players, since the point was definitely misunderstood.
I believe orks deserve nothing less than an awesome codex. Phil Kelly's 4th edition codex was the sole reason for me to start Warhammer 40k. For me 8th edition's codex will have to live up to that codex, because during 4th and 5th orks were a fun, reasonably competitive all-round army with many viable builds and units. That's the very least I expect.
However, currently ork threads on dakka aren't complaining about the lack of a codex. They are not complaining about how the index performs, about the limited choices or all the kicks in the balls we have received from GW over the course of the Kirby-era.
Currently there are four threads complaining about GW not starting their spoiler season for orks yet. GW has announced that Orks will be one of the next two codices, and has not gone back on that. Afterwards they have released a new version of their other big game and are probably currently bridging vacation season with specialist games. Meanwhile, we basically have the entire ork community stomping their foot on the ground and crying "but I want it NOW" like an impatient four-year old.
Until we hear otherwise, orks will be released after Space Wolves and its just a matter of time. Time limited to a maximum of two or three months.
This has zero to do with the quality of the ork codex, how orks play or with orks at all. There is absolutely no reason to act like people do, especially that facebook spammer.
I am personally pretty pessimistic with respect to the Ork codex, simply because I can't figure out how to make orks both competetive and internally balanced. Killa Kans and dreads are easy enough to fix, they just need to cost less points. But how about lootas, burnas and tankbustas? Can you make them viable on foot, without making them too good in a transport? And then there is the Nobz and Manz. How can you make them viable in a balanced army without making them OP if spammed?
I am also concerned that we might get clan-rules, where one rule is objectively better than the others. Like Alaitoc.
Meh I think it's silly that you guys care what each other think. I could care less what people complain about. I only come on here to talk about ork list ideas. I don't play tide list because I don't have all day to play 1 game. I generally take what I want regardless of how "viable" people on the internet think it is but Ilike advice for new ideas. I'm not trying to win big events. I win local events with mono build lists and recently took a biker ork list and smashed a bunch of lists in the local meta. I'd love a nice codex but it wouldn't stop me from playing Orks. I've played for years without using command points and a bunch of stratagems it doesn't bother me that I don't get any as it's like nothing has changed for me. I'm on ork and wolves player and will still be whether they had a new dex or not.
Jidmah wrote: First of all, I think an apology is due, my annoyance with the ork community has been building over a while, and I undeservedly made you the lightning rod for that pent up anger.
I still want to clarify why I'm annoyed with all those ork players, since the point was definitely misunderstood.
I believe orks deserve nothing less than an awesome codex. Phil Kelly's 4th edition codex was the sole reason for me to start Warhammer 40k. For me 8th edition's codex will have to live up to that codex, because during 4th and 5th orks were a fun, reasonably competitive all-round army with many viable builds and units. That's the very least I expect.
However, currently ork threads on dakka aren't complaining about the lack of a codex.
They are not complaining about how the index performs, about the limited choices or all the kicks in the balls we have received from GW over the course of the Kirby-era.
Currently there are four threads complaining about GW not starting their spoiler season for orks yet.
GW has announced that Orks will be one of the next two codices, and has not gone back on that. Afterwards they have released a new version of their other big game and are probably currently bridging vacation season with specialist games.
Meanwhile, we basically have the entire ork community stomping their foot on the ground and crying "but I want it NOW" like an impatient four-year old.
Until we hear otherwise, orks will be released after Space Wolves and its just a matter of time. Time limited to a maximum of two or three months.
This has zero to do with the quality of the ork codex, how orks play or with orks at all. There is absolutely no reason to act like people do, especially that facebook spammer.
Yay! We're friends again!
Yea I'm not saying that none of the complaints are misplaced and I can see that some people in the community are acting somewhat childish but I think we have a right to be annoyed. It is a poor business decision to announce a codex and then do nothing for over 2 months. Particularly when every other codex was announced then had previews a maximum of a month later. It's also a poor decision to show new GSC models when their codex has not been announced, because many Ork players assume this means we're getting nothing.
Constant negativity is annoying, but let's not pretend that GW have treated the Ork (or SW for that matter) community with any decency of late. I mean this is all with the background of Orks historically being treated like gak for many years. They have, as the phrase goes, been the architects of their own downfall as far as this is concerned.
Yea I'm not saying that none of the complaints are misplaced and I can see that some people in the community are acting somewhat childish but I think we have a right to be annoyed. It is a poor business decision to announce a codex and then do nothing for over 2 months. Particularly when every other codex was announced then had previews a maximum of a month later. It's also a poor decision to show new GSC models when their codex has not been announced, because many Ork players assume this means we're getting nothing.
Constant negativity is annoying, but let's not pretend that GW have treated the Ork (or SW for that matter) community with any decency of late. I mean this is all with the background of Orks historically being treated like gak for many years. They have, as the phrase goes, been the architects of their own downfall as far as this is concerned.
The GSC stuff was accidentally put on a display and thus leaked before they were supposed to be announced though, weren't they? Had that not happened people might have had bigger hopes for new Ork/SW models. So I do think it's a bit of bad luck on GWs part in this particular case.
The GSC stuff was accidentally put on a display and thus leaked before they were supposed to be announced though, weren't they? Had that not happened people might have had bigger hopes for new Ork/SW models. So I do think it's a bit of bad luck on GWs part in this particular case.
If you believe that a model was accidentally put on display then I suppose some of that is bad luck.
I was sure GW had previewed a new hybrid model before that themselves though. The one with the street sign previewed in a community post...
The GSC stuff was accidentally put on a display and thus leaked before they were supposed to be announced though, weren't they? Had that not happened people might have had bigger hopes for new Ork/SW models. So I do think it's a bit of bad luck on GWs part in this particular case.
If you believe that a model was accidentally put on display then I suppose some of that is bad luck.
I was sure GW had previewed a new hybrid model before that themselves though. The one with the street sign previewed in a community post...
I just remember GW made a video sort of mocking themselves indicating that is what happened. I'm not interested in GSC at all so I never looked into it any further than that. Maybe they just had a bit of fun and I misinterpreted the whole thing but if they did indeed screw up with the whole display thing I'm willing to cut them some slack on that one. Silly mistake but the GSC stuff is so out of place when we know that they're not the next codex and an accidental reveal would explain a lot.
Let’s be honest, GW screwed up and they do deserve backlash they are receiving. A lot of it could be avoided simply if they fed us some info, hell, even fluff snippets and army demonstrations would do a lot to calm people down.
My biggest grudges are probably a release of custodes, while a major race like orks was still waiting and Stompa vs Armigers article. So I’m expecting a codex with some thought behind it, or I’m probably switching to just collecting rather than playing.
JawRippa wrote: Let’s be honest, GW screwed up and they do deserve backlash they are receiving. A lot of it could be avoided simply if they fed us some info, hell, even fluff snippets and army demonstrations would do a lot to calm people down.
My biggest grudges are probably a release of custodes, while a major race like orks was still waiting and Stompa vs Armigers article. So I’m expecting a codex with some thought behind it, or I’m probably switching to just collecting rather than playing.
GW screwed up what? Because as far as I know, GW said ‘SW & orks are the next release’ and I haven’t seen any other codexes released between that time, so please enlighten me.
They deserve backlash!!? Stop and think about what you are saying.............you are annoyed because a games company hasn’t given you what you want,when you want it and that they deserve stick for it. How far did the dummy get when it was thrown out the pram?
I think everyone should cut out the bollocks that’s being said over and over and over again.
Here’s something everyone can get behind. Come 18th/19th of August we’ll have some news, then all the moaners will have to find a different reason to Clog up this thread.
Marklarr wrote: Here’s something everyone can get behind. Come 18th/19th of August we’ll have some news, then all the moaners will have to find a different reason to Clog up this thread.
Maybe they won't be moaning if we had news?
Also there is no guarantee or hint that we'll get anything on 18th/19th August. It could just as likely be no news or SW news.
1. I don't think GW have ever made Orks broken good.
Rolling assaults from trukks, nob bikers.
Broken good Jidmah. Unless you can point me to all those tournament wins Orks picked up using this build, that far outweighed any other wins from another faction?
An Actual Englishman wrote: 3. Many other codexes have released with totally broken things that were not fixed prior to release.
Oh? Please do make a list.
Any army with an army-wide -1 to hit (bonus points if they can take cheap troops that gain -2 to hit).
Any army with the ability to 'forward operate' any unit.
3 ppm Conscripts.
Agent of Vect, the most broken stratagem in the game.
Flyrant spam.
The fact that soup exists with absolutely no negatives.
Missiles that can snipe characters without line of sight and remove their invulnerable save.
Slamguinius.
Flying models' immunity to cqc exploiting terrain.
How's that to get you started?
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad Spam
Cheap as chips plasma for the above
Commissars that ensured conscripts ignored all morale
50 man conscript blobs
Dakkabot Cawl (until the next round of codexes and power creep made it 'normal')
Most of what I listed was fixed after the codex dropped. If orks are the powerhogs as the last codex, I would not be mad. They SHOULD get at least one broken rule set. Gulliman KNOWS the Imperium has several broken things already.
JawRippa wrote: Let’s be honest, GW screwed up and they do deserve backlash they are receiving. A lot of it could be avoided simply if they fed us some info, hell, even fluff snippets and army demonstrations would do a lot to calm people down.
My biggest grudges are probably a release of custodes, while a major race like orks was still waiting and Stompa vs Armigers article. So I’m expecting a codex with some thought behind it, or I’m probably switching to just collecting rather than playing.
GW screwed up what? Because as far as I know, GW said ‘SW & orks are the next release’ and I haven’t seen any other codexes released between that time, so please enlighten me.
They deserve backlash!!? Stop and think about what you are saying.............you are annoyed because a games company hasn’t given you what you want,when you want it and that they deserve stick for it. How far did the dummy get when it was thrown out the pram?
I think everyone should cut out the bollocks that’s being said over and over and over again.
Here’s something everyone can get behind. Come 18th/19th of August we’ll have some news, then all the moaners will have to find a different reason to Clog up this thread.
I've said it before and I will say it again. I don't care when the Codex comes out so long as it is a well written balanced codex that lets me play several different play styles without feeling like I am auto-losing.
However, I understand the players who are upset with the time table and lack of information. GW pushed out what? 15-16 codices in the space of a year, maybe even more? And now, they are down to SW, Orkz, SoB and GSC as the only main factions without a new codex and they haven't released one since the Knights codex over a month ago? Add to that the little "THEY ARE COMING" post GW put out and it got peoples hopes up. So for you to come in and get mad at them for wanting information at the least is a bit disingenuous. GW screwed up by changing their release schedule (that is fine, they just need to own it) and then they screwed up by giving the biggest 2 remaining factions a teaser and then went dark for months afterwards. So basically to you and everyone freaking out, Stay Calm and WAAAAAGH! On.
I've said it before and I will say it again. I don't care when the Codex comes out so long as it is a well written balanced codex that lets me play several different play styles without feeling like I am auto-losing.
So, technically 'never' is allready good enough. Because it's allready happened. We're allready enjoying the balanced codex that has never come out. Guess you should be happy atm.
I've kind of been wondering this for a bit: how good are warbosses?
I've got this idea in my head that they're these badass, physical manifestations of destruction that can take on anything but I know of course that that isn't so on tabletop (doesn't stop me from hoping mine can 1v1 Hive Tyrants bless his soul). But still though, I'm wonder how they fit into the big picture.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I've kind of been wondering this for a bit: how good are warbosses?
I've got this idea in my head that they're these badass, physical manifestations of destruction that can take on anything but I know of course that that isn't so on tabletop (doesn't stop me from hoping mine can 1v1 Hive Tyrants bless his soul). But still though, I'm wonder how they fit into the big picture.
Warbosses are really only as badass as the nearby infantry unit that they helped get into CC with WAAAGH! Anything else they do is a bonus.
JawRippa wrote: Let’s be honest, GW screwed up and they do deserve backlash they are receiving. A lot of it could be avoided simply if they fed us some info, hell, even fluff snippets and army demonstrations would do a lot to calm people down.
My biggest grudges are probably a release of custodes, while a major race like orks was still waiting and Stompa vs Armigers article. So I’m expecting a codex with some thought behind it, or I’m probably switching to just collecting rather than playing.
GW screwed up what? Because as far as I know, GW said ‘SW & orks are the next release’ and I haven’t seen any other codexes released between that time, so please enlighten me.
They deserve backlash!!? Stop and think about what you are saying.............you are annoyed because a games company hasn’t given you what you want,when you want it and that they deserve stick for it. How far did the dummy get when it was thrown out the pram?
I think everyone should cut out the bollocks that’s being said over and over and over again.
Here’s something everyone can get behind. Come 18th/19th of August we’ll have some news, then all the moaners will have to find a different reason to Clog up this thread.
I've said it before and I will say it again. I don't care when the Codex comes out so long as it is a well written balanced codex that lets me play several different play styles without feeling like I am auto-losing.
However, I understand the players who are upset with the time table and lack of information. GW pushed out what? 15-16 codices in the space of a year, maybe even more? And now, they are down to SW, Orkz, SoB and GSC as the only main factions without a new codex and they haven't released one since the Knights codex over a month ago? Add to that the little "THEY ARE COMING" post GW put out and it got peoples hopes up. So for you to come in and get mad at them for wanting information at the least is a bit disingenuous. GW screwed up by changing their release schedule (that is fine, they just need to own it) and then they screwed up by giving the biggest 2 remaining factions a teaser and then went dark for months afterwards. So basically to you and everyone freaking out, Stay Calm and WAAAAAGH! On.
‘GW pushed out what? 15-16 codices in the space of a year, maybe even more? And now, they are down to SW, Orkz, SoB and GSC as the only main factions without a new codex and they haven't released one since the Knights codex over a month ago?’ I don’t get the point you are making? Im going to guess you feel they are entitled to something because of this?
With regards to ‘they are coming’ tell me how GW has lied about this? Are they not coming? Did they give you, personally a release date, then change it? Please share if so. Again, I don’t really understand what you are getting at, I’ll put this down as entitlement issues again.
I understand people (including myself) would like a few snippets of information, to keep us ticking over until the eventual release, that wasn’t what I was specifically annoyed at, If you actually read what I said?
Also, I dont think you know what disingenuous means.
Show me GW release schedule please?
Maybe they have rearranged release dates, from what they originally planned (internally to the business) again, they don’t need to own anything because they haven’t given dates. But I’ll go out on a limb and say the 18th\19th this month we will have information for something 40k related.
‘GW pushed out what? 15-16 codices in the space of a year, maybe even more? And now, they are down to SW, Orkz, SoB and GSC as the only main factions without a new codex and they haven't released one since the Knights codex over a month ago?’ I don’t get the point you are making? Im going to guess you feel they are entitled to something because of this?
With regards to ‘they are coming’ tell me how GW has lied about this? Are they not coming? Did they give you, personally a release date, then change it? Please share if so. Again, I don’t really understand what you are getting at, I’ll put this down as entitlement issues again.
...
Problem is that previously GW started to release information 2 weeks-1 month after announcement of a codex. This has been true for all codexes so far if I'm not mistaking. So naturally, people have been expecting information for either Wolves or Orks and got mighty pissed off when it didn't come. They didn't give any release date, but at the very least they could have warned that main focus was going to be other releases, so people would not get so burned out by lack of expected info. Add the fact that we've seen an entirely new faction getting their own codex before orks, articles in WD that use Stompas and Kanz as punching bags for new imperial units, as well as multiple claims about various ork units being viable at the start of 8th (while they are not) and you start seing the problem. Point is, we are not seing any effort, and given the neglect for orks so far, it is getting people anxious. What if we've been waiting for 7th ed tier codex for over a year?
So yeah, they could have easily avoid creating unnessesary tention within community by being more transparent or engaged, but they didn't. Thus GW deserves the backlash, since they've created all the conditions for it. Note that I do not approve of people pestering GW Facebook representatives (although this is also GW's fault in a way, since Facebook is pretty much the only way to voice our concerns properly). Nor I approve of defeatist endless whining. But claiming that treating a dedicated fanbase like this is an a-ok thing is rubbish.
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad Spam
Cheap as chips plasma for the above
Commissars that ensured conscripts ignored all morale
50 man conscript blobs
Dakkabot Cawl (until the next round of codexes and power creep made it 'normal')
Most of what I listed was fixed after the codex dropped. If orks are the powerhogs as the last codex, I would not be mad. They SHOULD get at least one broken rule set. Gulliman KNOWS the Imperium has several broken things already.
I personally don't want a broken rule set that gets carried by 1-2 unintended OP rules/combinations, but rather a varied one. Where I can take any unit without the feeling like I've just gimped myself really hard. I'm fairly sure that a lot of people on forums share my point of view. Having a "Its our time to be broken!" mindset is not a good one.
Rismonite wrote: You seem to be lost, this is the unofficial ork wishlisting, complaining, maffhammerin, and sometimes taktikz thread not the 40k Army Lists forum.
Yeah by the looks of it you're still right about that.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Painboy on a bike is, in my experience, a complete waste. You can afford to take 2 on foot if you take him out. Is there a particular reason you've left him in? Apart from that the list looks good but nothing really groundbreaking here... (hence the wishlisting/complaining).
Yeah mostly because ITC encourages movement, I don't want to hamper my stormboy movement, and I think the powerklaw is worth using (since you never do when it's on foot). I would like to squeeze another walking painboy in dedicated to the wierdboyz, but I'm just taking boyz out for him, and I think the math doesn't work out for me if I'm doing that.
And yeah, there's nothing to ground break. But that doesn't mean tuning lists isn't helpful. The meta is moving and there are things to talk about if you're so inclined. I could easily drop two HQ and add 5 KMK, add tank bustas (as recommended), or make a flying contingent. I originally had 15 tank bustas with 4 bomb squiggs to jump them in to action as I used to do, but I feel that the beta changes have turned that strategy off. I think an option is to drop the 30 stormboyz and just pack in more HQ, I think if I had 3 warbosses on bikes w/ PKs instead of 30 stormboyz I might get more done. For example:
Threat range of warbosses on bikes is pretty brutal now, I would probably play this list if I had the models.
edit: So this list makes Zhadsnark heaaaaaps better, since he can now advance and charge to support other warbosses on bikes (since their rule enables him to adv->charge). Thats 21"+2d6 threat range. I think turn 1 you move up the board while they shoot your KMK. turn 2 you jump a squad in the middle of their army, then move HQ around the flanks. If the big mob lands a charge, then charge with all your bikes and the big mob protects the characters for ages since they'll likely be the closest. I dunno, I would play like that if I had 5 warbosses on bikes.
edit 2: Rule of three :( :( :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: I've actually read the past few pages (go me, it was hard btw) and I feel for you Jidmah. You post here on the forums a lot, almost like it's a bit of a home for you, and I would be annoyed if my second home started filling up with what you are perceiving (people crying).
It's just not fun to hang around, and it pushes people like myself away. I want to be here and talk strategy and help newbies, I want to talk about the nuances of our lists and some cool thing I learned about tri-pointing after charging etc... but I CBF reading 10 posts about the new codex between every 1 good question.
You guys think its harmless wishlisting and complaining, and certainly you are entitled to complain, don't let me stop you. But know that you are building the forums in your image. Where do you think everyone else has gone? I'm on discords and facebook groups to get informative and strategic discussions, I can't do it here :(
hollow one wrote: It's just not fun to hang around, and it pushes people like myself away. I want to be here and talk strategy and help newbies, I want to talk about the nuances of our lists and some cool thing I learned about tri-pointing after charging etc... but I CBF reading 10 posts about the new codex between every 1 good question.
You guys think its harmless wishlisting and complaining, and certainly you are entitled to complain, don't let me stop you. But know that you are building the forums in your image. Where do you think everyone else has gone? I'm on discords and facebook groups to get informative and strategic discussions, I can't do it here :(
In my experience, facebook groups and discord channels are just as negative as here, if not more so. I also find there is a drought of tactical discussion.
I get you want to talk tactics and nuance but I think for many (myself included) we've run dry on that front. I know how to get the most out of a charge via positioning. I know how to surround a unit to stop it moving. I know that KMK + Greentide + Weirdboy with optional Tank Bustas in a Trukk for flavour and dependent on meta is the go-to list right now.
MY list, FYI, has Bikes, Koptas, Trukks, Nobz and Meks in. It doesn't do very well, regardless of how well I roll and play. I know I could improve it by adding KMKs, but I don't want to jump on a bandwagon and I'm absolutely unwilling to give up my Evil Sunz roots. Discussing the list is pointless here though, because it is extremely inefficient. It's only saving grace is that people are so confused by it, they don't know what many of the units do and don't play particularly well against it.
Zhadsnark should be able to advance and charge himself, it's really stupid he can't.
Has anyone here had much success with a flame-trukk? Either filled with 5 nobz w/ kombi-skorchas (and probably som grot oilers for cheap wounds and maybe power stabbas since they're cheap) or burnas? I get that burnas aren't all that great but I want to try and make them work somewhat.. Obviously this isn't for a tournament type list.
Is it worth it to add in a spanner or two with kombi-skorchas? Is it even worth charging stuff you're not guaranteed to kill with the nobz then?
I like the visual of a trukk advancing forward, spewing fire. But as of right now I'm not sure whether I can scrounge up enough bits to convert 5 kombi-skorchas. Obviously I could do a count-as in the meantime but would be fun hearing if someone had some experience wiuth them.
PiñaColada wrote: Has anyone here had much success with a flame-trukk? Either filled with 5 nobz w/ kombi-skorchas (and probably som grot oilers for cheap wounds and maybe power stabbas since they're cheap) or burnas? I get that burnas aren't all that great but I want to try and make them work somewhat.. Obviously this isn't for a tournament type list.
Is it worth it to add in a spanner or two with kombi-skorchas? Is it even worth charging stuff you're not guaranteed to kill with the nobz then?
I like the visual of a trukk advancing forward, spewing fire. But as of right now I'm not sure whether I can scrounge up enough bits to convert 5 kombi-skorchas. Obviously I could do a count-as in the meantime but would be fun hearing if someone had some experience wiuth them.
I tried running burnas a couple time when the index dropped. They're really really underwhelming on their own. Paired with a trukk being too expensive, they end up as a weak unit combo. Useable only in extremely casual games.
Haven't tried kskorcha nobz. I suspect you're just better off with more nobz and ammo runts. I've run bigchoppa nobz in trukks and...expectedly, they're also underwhelming. Used to be passable when the index dropped but not so much now as the power creep has made anything other than horde boyz and kmk not worth taking.
I tried running burnas a couple time when the index dropped. They're really really underwhelming on their own. Paired with a trukk being too expensive, they end up as a weak unit combo. Useable only in extremely casual games.
Haven't tried kskorcha nobz. I suspect you're just better off with more nobz and ammo runts. I've run bigchoppa nobz in trukks and...expectedly, they're also underwhelming. Used to be passable when the index dropped but not so much now as the power creep has made anything other than horde boyz and kmk not worth taking.
Ok thanks. Sort of what I expected then with regards to the burnas (and mirroring the few times I've tried burnas myself) My entire ork list is pretty casual but some units are so underwhelming they stick out like a sore thumb in even those types of lists. I'm wondering if burnas woud be worth it if the still had d3 shots but with skorcha stats instead?
I think the kombi-skorcha could have some potential (especially if we get a rule where we always hit on 6's so the shoota rounds aren't completely wasted). The problem with those guns are the cost. Considering all flamers are too expensive I can't imagine they'll be lowered too much though. Maybe if the ammo runts added an extra hit with skorchas or something?
Alternatively it'd be cool if the trukks themselves could get skorchas.
I tried running burnas a couple time when the index dropped. They're really really underwhelming on their own. Paired with a trukk being too expensive, they end up as a weak unit combo. Useable only in extremely casual games.
Haven't tried kskorcha nobz. I suspect you're just better off with more nobz and ammo runts. I've run bigchoppa nobz in trukks and...expectedly, they're also underwhelming. Used to be passable when the index dropped but not so much now as the power creep has made anything other than horde boyz and kmk not worth taking.
Ok thanks. Sort of what I expected then with regards to the burnas (and mirroring the few times I've tried burnas myself) My entire ork list is pretty casual but some units are so underwhelming they stick out like a sore thumb in even those types of lists. I'm wondering if burnas woud be worth it if the still had d3 shots but with skorcha stats instead?
I think the kombi-skorcha could have some potential (especially if we get a rule where we always hit on 6's so the shoota rounds aren't completely wasted). The problem with those guns are the cost. Considering all flamers are too expensive I can't imagine they'll be lowered too much though. Maybe if the ammo runts added an extra hit with skorchas or something?
Alternatively it'd be cool if the trukks themselves could get skorchas.
Honestly, if I had burna boyz I probably would be bringing two trukkz of burna boyz and two trukkz of tankbustas by now. If you need an anti infantry unit (sometimes needed in mechanized lists), you have shoota boyz, flash gitz, and the Dakkajet to compare burna boyz to. Not accounting for range the Burna Boyz have more output and if you can get them into combat first the -2 AP can clean up marines. A lot of turn one shooting will likely go at other targets in your trukk list. Problem with everything I've said soo far is that mechanized orkz is just too bad right now.
Jidmah wrote: SemperMortis is being the voice of reason of the ork community.
Everything has gone to hell.
is it me or does it seem like jidmah just ignored many other ork posters here and only sees semper as the voice of reason.
like a weird selective hearing/reading.
It's just you. You made up the word "only" in your head thought it was real.
Semper stood just out to me he usually has the exact opposite opinion to me
I'm quite happy that a bunch of other ork players feel the same way I do, I guess they just stopped posting because there is little left to say about orks.
Jidmah wrote: SemperMortis is being the voice of reason of the ork community.
Everything has gone to hell.
is it me or does it seem like jidmah just ignored many other ork posters here and only sees semper as the voice of reason.
like a weird selective hearing/reading.
It's just you. You made up the word "only" in your head thought it was real.
Semper stood just out to me he usually has the exact opposite opinion to me
I'm quite happy that a bunch of other ork players feel the same way I do, I guess they just stopped posting because there is little left to say about orks.
Yeah im not really sure what else there is to say. I think most of us would be happy with an Ork codex on the same competitiveness and versatility as the tyranid codex, and a new warboss model. Done. Ezpz
I wander in once in a great while to see what's new but don't post often as:
1.) this thread is mostly for WAAC lists and that's not really my style of play
2.) what's to say about an index army that's been discussed to death?
In reply to the burna truck question earlier, I find them hyper underwhelming. A better combo is a big trakk with the super skorcha and if you can find points, two additional regular skorchas. Super skorcha might be our best ranged weapon in the whole army.
Nuck Fewton wrote: I wander in once in a great while to see what's new but don't post often as:
1.) this thread is mostly for WAAC lists and that's not really my style of play
2.) what's to say about an index army that's been discussed to death?
In reply to the burna truck question earlier, I find them hyper underwhelming. A better combo is a big trakk with the super skorcha and if you can find points, two additional regular skorchas. Super skorcha might be our best ranged weapon in the whole army.
Yeah, the super skorcha looks pretty solid. It's a shame that it's a heavy weapon which makes normal skorchas seem a little less worthwhile on ithe big trakk because getting them in range is going to be tougher. I've been toying with scratch-building a big trakk since the FW model is pretty terrible in my opinion. Iit's one of those possible projects that I'm waiting on the codex before I'll dive into.
Hi, just started playing 40k again after about 20 years out, had a couple of small points games against a friend who plays tau.
So far stand out units are truck shoota boyz and vanilla boyz (I guess the boyz being good thing has been covered a little bit on here!)
On a side note I took a 5 man kommando squad that are aloud to take 2 burners for no extra cost it seems quite good to be able to take them, cheaper than Burna Boyz and can infiltrate.
Jidmah wrote: SemperMortis is being the voice of reason of the ork community.
Everything has gone to hell.
is it me or does it seem like jidmah just ignored many other ork posters here and only sees semper as the voice of reason.
like a weird selective hearing/reading.
It's just you. You made up the word "only" in your head thought it was real.
Semper stood just out to me he usually has the exact opposite opinion to me
I'm quite happy that a bunch of other ork players feel the same way I do, I guess they just stopped posting because there is little left to say about orks.
just gonna quickly respond to this. at this point i have little to add to this thread (besides that you guys should get over the "thread derail" and "noh moar negativ" stuff, its bound to happen, get used to it ).
jidmah, you didn't say "only" but heavily implied it even if you didn't mean to. you listed one name..."semper", then said they were "the voice of reason". that is a pretty singular statement. it implied that semper was the only voice of reason. now if you meant for that to apply to multiple people then you could've said "semper is one of the voices of reason".
i did add "only" but because i incorrectly assumed what you meant by your lack of semantics.
but if that was your intention then that's fine, ill accept that, just don't blame me for misinterpreting what you said when you could've been more clear about it.
In regards to my earlier question about flame-trukks, I've looked around the forgeworld index a bit and realised that the grot mega tank can take a pretty scary amount of dakka. 7 skorchas, a shoota and 2 boom kanisters comes to 208 points I think. Or switch the skorchas for grotzookas and it's like 160 points, which might be the better build snce then a "mutiny" roll of a 6 is still pretty useful.
Has anyone tried the GMT? It seems very fragile though, both for it's points and especially considering it looks to be around battlewagon sized. My guess is that it's pretty difficult to rely on the GMT doing anything considering its movement and its shooting is random.
Grot tanks look so damned cool and the idea of them is awesome, but as has previously been said, the rules for those guys are so terrible that even in friendly games they don't make much sense.
If you're fixed on flamers, you can run skorcha trakks. They're pretty bad but better than anything else with a flamer in the index.
Not exactly using flamers but Burna bomber can be ok. Don't expect it to do much but it's not half bad vs some targets. It's pretty good for just being there and denying wipeouts. It explodes on 4+ dealing 3 mw to stuff around so the enemy will either ignore it if it'close or will be forced to maneuvre. Grot gunners are basically characters without a character keyword and this plane will nake it harder for your opponent to wipe them out when there's nothing left of your army other than grot gunners. This usually happens around turn 4.
Kskorchas can be used in biker cgaracters. Too expensive to be good but not super horrible.
Big trakk with a 4d3 supaskorcha is decent. If you don't mind fw, it's the best flamer source we have access to. Though, expect it to be comparatively better as the power creep spirals up. Fw rarely updates their rules.
koooaei wrote: If you're fixed on flamers, you can run skorcha trakks. They're pretty bad but better than anything else with a flamer in the index.
Not exactly using flamers but Burna bomber can be ok. Don't expect it to do much but it's not half bad vs some targets. It's pretty good for just being there and denying wipeouts. It explodes on 4+ dealing 3 mw to stuff around so the enemy will either ignore it if it'close or will be forced to maneuvre. Grot gunners are basically characters without a character keyword and this plane will nake it harder for your opponent to wipe them out when there's nothing left of your army other than grot gunners. This usually happens around turn 4.
Kskorchas can be used in biker cgaracters. Too expensive to be good but not super horrible.
Big trakk with a 4d3 supaskorcha is decent. If you don't mind fw, it's the best flamer source we have access to. Though, expect it to be comparatively better as the power creep spirals up. Fw rarely updates their rules.
Yeah, the big trakk with the super skorcha looks like a much better deal really. It's quite possible I'll end up building a big trakk and a GMT just because I like grots too much to not include some of their vehicles. I'll probably end up converting some skorcha-trakks as well at some point assuming they don't get a new kit. It's a shame most of my opponents run pretty vehicle heavy lists so all these skorchas would end up doing very little haha.
"Zhadsnark should be able to advance and charge himself, it's really stupid he can't."
This! He has been my favorite warboss since I learned of him years ago. I even converted one for play. This addition I have used him extensively. He has done exceptionally well for me, especially since the change to biker warbosses nearby who will allow him to advance and charge. Gun liine opponents do their best to shoot him and his revenue before he reaches them because they know a power Klaw with no negative that hits on 2s is disgustingly good. I usually give him legendary fighter to get him another attack. If I didn't have to take another warboss to advance and charge him i would definitely use the points elsewhere.
nice biker boss (zhadsnark). man, those AOBR warbosses are some of the most prolific models that is no longer sold (except for maybe vadros). its such a great model.
man, if they just reprinted the AOBR defkopta and warboss with more wpn options and customization then that would solve some of the "lack of HQ and other plastic models" issues our faction suffers.
geargutz wrote: nice biker boss (zhadsnark). man, those AOBR warbosses are some of the most prolific models that is no longer sold (except for maybe vadros). its such a great model.
man, if they just reprinted the AOBR defkopta and warboss with more wpn options and customization then that would solve some of the "lack of HQ and other plastic models" issues our faction suffers.
I really dislike the AOBR warboss, I think its the pose of his claw just out to the side, looks weird to me. I ended up cutting it off one of mine and putting it on the AoS Megaboss, now THAT is an awesome warboss model imo.
That said, the zhadsnark converison looks great! We def do need the plastic AOBR deffkopta kits back assuming those models are useable with the codex
The good part about that pose is that the model is really easy to convert. You can use the klaw for other things, add a different arm, put the boss on a bike, a boar, build MA around him, whatever.
I'm a space wolves player too but don't need anymore primaris. The gsc are cool but I don't need to start a new army. I'll just be waiting for the ork dex and kitbashing a Meka dread
not sure if this is strictly the right place to post this, also, this could be one of those "japan only" things or something...and it's not much...but hey, it's bloody something! (maybe) ...found them floating around on twitter...seems to come from here? https://grotorderly.blogspot.com/2018/08/speed-freeks-nowa-gra-gw-tylko-na-chiny.html
...man...I sure do hope that buggy on the cover is representative of an actual new kit...because that is a bloody nice buggy!
...man...I sure do hope that buggy on the cover is representative of an actual new kit...because that is a bloody nice buggy!
I am not sure if i like the design but that might change, they look a bit like kit bashed toy cars with orks on. The gun on the first buggy doesnt look like any known ork weapon, maybe a bit like a lobba perhaps?
The buggy on the front does look pretty good, but, the question is, do people really expect them to be “competitively viable”? Outside looking in, I’m not expecting them to be, nor as I expecting bikes and Trukks to be either unless they all get “vanguard” style movements etc.
I don’t expect such thoughts to impact initial sales of this box though (if it is released globally).
It's 2018, mobile phone cameras are pretty decent across the board. How the feth do people fail so miserably that they have to take and post potato pictures of important subjects?
Weazel wrote: It's 2018, mobile phone cameras are pretty decent across the board. How the feth do people fail so miserably that they have to take and post potato pictures of important subjects?
they took a pic without flash becasue they had to rush before they were pulled into a dark van labeled "GW, ALD (anti leaks department)"
Probably. But what we do see is mighty interesting. Correct me if I'am wrong, but those are two brand new orky vehicel sprues. The one on the right looks a bit like a wartrakk but isn't. It is the chassis of a 4-wheeled buggy. The one on the left looks new as well with new exhausts, bodywork and weapons. I'm excited!
It's a lovely model that I really hope gets some good rules to back it up. I'd love to buy a few and have them cruising around the battlefield getting into trouble, running guardsmen over then blowing up in a blaze of glory. I can see a stratagem that lets them drive through units to deal mortal d3 mortal wounds or charge a super sonic flier and crash into it dealing mortal wounds to both models. Like you use the stratagem to charge the flier dealing d3 mortal wounds. You kill yourself. You blow up. You deal another d3 mortal wounds. It's great fun till you roll a one both times, but meh that's proppa orky taktics dat iz.
Jidmah wrote: That cannon makes me hope that we'll no longer be stuck with rokkits on buggies.
Think its a recast of a weapon we have already or a new one? Will we receive a slew of new weapons to choose from? i might take stock of my magnet supply once these come out.
Jidmah wrote: That cannon makes me hope that we'll no longer be stuck with rokkits on buggies.
Think its a recast of a weapon we have already or a new one? Will we receive a slew of new weapons to choose from? i might take stock of my magnet supply once these come out.
I’m thinking it must be a new weapon.
It’s obviously not a rokkit launcha and it’s too beefy to be a big shoota (plus single big shootas would suck). Also doesn’t look quite big enough to be a kannon.
As much as I hate to say it, but I think it being released on "Orktober" is good for the ork-o-sphere.
It means that there is plenty of time to show off up coming ork stuff after the Specialist Games (iirc only rogue trader remains), whereas Space Wolves did not have the time and has so far recieved no new releases.
Basically the month gap hints at things worth showing off. Perhaps the start of 8.5e or new models, because there's a lack of upcoming specialist games during that time.
I just noticed something...in this pic, circled in red...they're bloody burna/skorcha "lighters" aren't they?? - this thing has weaponized exhausts, doesn't it??
Jidmah wrote: That cannon makes me hope that we'll no longer be stuck with rokkits on buggies.
Think its a recast of a weapon we have already or a new one? Will we receive a slew of new weapons to choose from? i might take stock of my magnet supply once these come out.
One of the old warbuggies had a multi-melta model, but I doubt this is thing is one. The gun is too beefy to be a big shoota or supa-shoota, and doesn't match the visuals for any big guns, mek guns or walker weapons (KMK, skorcha, grotzooka). It's almost definitely not a SAG, since that gun as very unique optics.
Visually, the closest thing would be plasma cannons, but KMK fill that role, which look completely different.
So, just from the optics, it's probably going to be a high-caliber gun somewhere between dakkagun and kannon - which is no bad, as orks are kind on lacking in that area.
honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's simply an updated take on the buggy rokkit launcha...there's a lot of more advanced looking gubbinz on it, but it does have that toofy blast shield on the front, which I feel has a history with rokkit launchas (although, now that I think about it, I'm struggling to back that up, aside from the rokkit launcha in the boyz kit?)
...but hey, I'm more than willing to be happily surprised with some fresh kinds of dakka!
Hard to tell yet but i don't think ork vehicle and biker heavy lists are gona be that great regardless of what we get. Meta is adapting to fight 3++ knights and weapons that are good at popping knoghts are gona be amazing at popping ork vehicles with 4+ and 5++. So, unless vehicles and bikes are gona be dirt cheap, i doubt you're gona see more than a couple. Much more interested to see clan rules, new characters and maybe primorks of some kind.
It's all just a thought extrapolation but you can clearly see tourneys been drowned in knights. Both gt and local ones. Our last small tourney had an average of 1 knight per person.
So i'd rather not get too eager about ork vehicles yet.
ZoBo wrote: honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's simply an updated take on the buggy rokkit launcha...there's a lot of more advanced looking gubbinz on it, but it does have that toofy blast shield on the front, which I feel has a history with rokkit launchas (although, now that I think about it, I'm struggling to back that up, aside from the rokkit launcha in the boyz kit?)
...but hey, I'm more than willing to be happily surprised with some fresh kinds of dakka!
The rokkit on the burna/loota spanna also has a blast-shield.
However, rokkits have always been shown as actual missiles with red or yellow tops. There is no way they will turn that into a high-caliber gun.
So, if you guys wanna take a break from salivating over the new model, i would like to discuss some strategy. Specifically Us Vs Tyranids strategy.
What has and has not worked for you guys? Discuss.
For me one thing i think im going to keep doing now is utilizing Shoota boyz. Plenty of targets in nid armies that will take good damage from them. they are still quite combat viable even without the extra attack.
I have personally seen fairly powerful overwatch results from them as well. I have had some success with what rockets have been in my army, and im considering tankbustas despite the lack of vehicles in the nid army. one ore thing to consider is that i was able to easily clear spore mines by directing 2-3 boyz to shoot at each one.
Before i say this, i know our walkers are not great right now, but i feel like they particularly dont work vs nids right now. Not enough attacks to chew gribblies and not tough enough to weather any of their monsters. My walker list fell apart at the end when combat happened, plus they have combat centric stratagems that tip the scales further.
So theres what worked / Didnt work for me.
I have been thing recently that based on alot of important Nid models that tankbustas might be a real answer for 3 wound low toughness things like zoanthropes/Venomthropes which in my head are high value targets. All it takes is 1 failed save to kill a model.
Where do you guys stand on actually targeting venomthropes? I think in alot of cases they should be priority 1 to remove the -1 hit aura but i have also been in situations where it seemed to be a waste of time and i would have rather targeted things outside their auras. What are your experiences?
tbh.
Im thinking i will run at least 1 biggtrakk (supaskorcha) / 6 tankbusta units. they are high yeild any time i have used them and i think they still have a place vs non vehivle armies. Prolly 2.
What do you guys say lets take a crack at nids for a bit? I lose most of my games to them.
Dojo wrote: So, if you guys wanna take a break from salivating over the new model, i would like to discuss some strategy. Specifically Us Vs Tyranids strategy.
What has and has not worked for you guys? Discuss.
For me one thing i think im going to keep doing now is utilizing Shoota boyz. Plenty of targets in nid armies that will take good damage from them. they are still quite combat viable even without the extra attack.
I have personally seen fairly powerful overwatch results from them as well. I have had some success with what rockets have been in my army, and im considering tankbustas despite the lack of vehicles in the nid army. one ore thing to consider is that i was able to easily clear spore mines by directing 2-3 boyz to shoot at each one.
Before i say this, i know our walkers are not great right now, but i feel like they particularly dont work vs nids right now. Not enough attacks to chew gribblies and not tough enough to weather any of their monsters. My walker list fell apart at the end when combat happened, plus they have combat centric stratagems that tip the scales further.
So theres what worked / Didnt work for me.
I have been thing recently that based on alot of important Nid models that tankbustas might be a real answer for 3 wound low toughness things like zoanthropes/Venomthropes which in my head are high value targets. All it takes is 1 failed save to kill a model.
Where do you guys stand on actually targeting venomthropes? I think in alot of cases they should be priority 1 to remove the -1 hit aura but i have also been in situations where it seemed to be a waste of time and i would have rather targeted things outside their auras. What are your experiences?
tbh.
Im thinking i will run at least 1 biggtrakk (supaskorcha) / 6 tankbusta units. they are high yeild any time i have used them and i think they still have a place vs non vehivle armies. Prolly 2.
What do you guys say lets take a crack at nids for a bit? I lose most of my games to them.
I found that resigning usually works pretty well and accomplishes what it intends.
Seriously, shooty nids evaporate orks at a vastly lower cost than what we pay for ours.
Possibly weirdboy spam teleporting orks onto objectives...but likely they can't get within 9 inches of one if it has bugs on it, and can't move until the next turn to try to score it. Maybe teleport to empty objectives on turn 1 for a few points anyway.
If someone else has an answer, I would also like to know.
Anvildude wrote: Man, people are just NEGATIVE a lot in this thread. And not, like, in a mean way. Just, everyone always seems so resigned to losing.
Also, shooty nids are a hard counter to index orks. Everything that have that shoots is practically twice as points efficient as we are, and we have no answer to big monsters (the bane of 7th ed) which was not solved.
Tankbustas only saving grace is they get to re-roll against vehicles, and are overpriced even then. Against an army that has no vehicles they are worse than worthless.
Anvildude wrote: Man, people are just NEGATIVE a lot in this thread. And not, like, in a mean way. Just, everyone always seems so resigned to losing.
Sadly, that's the reality unless your opponent specifically tailors his army to be a fair fight for yours. Even if they just randomly toss models they like into a list, their is a good chance they will curb-stomp you.
Anvildude wrote: Man, people are just NEGATIVE a lot in this thread. And not, like, in a mean way. Just, everyone always seems so resigned to losing.
i wonder, with all these poeple that mention ork saltiness, or even ork players who say we are too whiny, i wonder if they have played orks much this edition.
for a whole year we have had little success. maybe at the start of the edition when everyone was new to it we had some wins, but even then you could tell there was power difference between indexes, and orks weren't at the top of the indexes, though we were not the bottom.
now as the year progressed and everyone was getting their fancy codex's we languished, and the only thing we really had was the infamous boy spam. and if you haven't played it or played against it then understand this...its bloody boring.
i know the green tide is in the fluff, but its the "every ork" type army. any fluff piece always had waves upon waves of boyz, but the ork flavor would really start to come out when you find out what special units the waaagh would have. but with out those special units or unique armies all we would ever get would be just another horde army that wouldn't even horde that well compared to others (especially after the guard and the tyranids got their codexs).
its not fun to look at your collection of speedfreak vehicles, dreddmob death machines, and elite focused nob armies, and realize that they were all useless in competitive 40k (heck, they are even only mildly more useful in fun pickup games), and then you would have to go back to assembling and painting the same boy x100. for many of us 8th edition has been very boring, and hopefully the codex will diversify our lists.
geargutz wrote: i know the green tide is in the fluff, but its the "every ork" type army. any fluff piece always had waves upon waves of boyz, but the ork flavor would really start to come out when you find out what special units the waaagh would have. but with out those special units or unique armies all we would ever get would be just another horde army that wouldn't even horde that well compared to others (especially after the guard and the tyranids got their codexs).
To ram that home without going for full boyz spam but actually daring to have other units I only barely outnumbered sisters of battle army...That's 3+ BS3+ army that was nearly woman to ork in numbers.
As it is if you want to horde it up IG does better job at it than orks.
And vs codex armies even in casual games orks casual options are laughably bad. And then we come to units like stompa that are basically "i lose" autobutton. Not quite as bad as warhound but still you basically lose the game.
Well. Codex is hopefully within weeks out so hopefully it changes soon.
TBH geargutz, everyone is in the same position. Most armies right now only have one build that wins tournaments, even with codexes.
* 1k sons: smite spam (may or may not include magnus)
* eldar: wave serpents, shining spear, dark reaper
* harlequin: bikes
* drukhari: raiders and venoms? I dunno all their gak looks the same.
* blood angels: captains and mephiston
* knights: one castellan in amongst guard
* tau: firewarrior spam, hammerheads or riptides
* CSM: what... renegade knights? nothing is working
* death guard: plaguebearers and PBC * sisters: seraphim, repressors and immolators
* ANY imperium list: where's your scouts, guard battery, and knight??
Look I'm massively simplifying it, but the point is clear.
But here in this thread, we've managed to make it a depressing mess for over a year. And you're wrong about the little success, Orks had a great time in the first 6 months, and even stole a few GT wins later in the year.
Anvildude wrote: Man, people are just NEGATIVE a lot in this thread. And not, like, in a mean way. Just, everyone always seems so resigned to losing.
i wonder, with all these poeple that mention ork saltiness, or even ork players who say we are too whiny, i wonder if they have played orks much this edition.
for a whole year we have had little success. maybe at the start of the edition when everyone was new to it we had some wins, but even then you could tell there was power difference between indexes, and orks weren't at the top of the indexes, though we were not the bottom.
now as the year progressed and everyone was getting their fancy codex's we languished, and the only thing we really had was the infamous boy spam. and if you haven't played it or played against it then understand this...its bloody boring.
i know the green tide is in the fluff, but its the "every ork" type army. any fluff piece always had waves upon waves of boyz, but the ork flavor would really start to come out when you find out what special units the waaagh would have. but with out those special units or unique armies all we would ever get would be just another horde army that wouldn't even horde that well compared to others (especially after the guard and the tyranids got their codexs).
its not fun to look at your collection of speedfreak vehicles, dreddmob death machines, and elite focused nob armies, and realize that they were all useless in competitive 40k (heck, they are even only mildly more useful in fun pickup games), and then you would have to go back to assembling and painting the same boy x100. for many of us 8th edition has been very boring, and hopefully the codex will diversify our lists.
The complaints about ork players are mostly about a select few ork players going ballistic in every single thread about not getting info on the new codex/getting our new codex last/not getting the codex right now.
Very few people do not agree that there is little to be won with orks as of now.
The complaints about ork players are mostly about a select few ork players going ballistic in every single thread about not getting info on the new codex/getting our new codex last/not getting the codex right now.
Very few people do not agree that there is little to be won with orks as of now.
man, i didnt even talk about it and you jumped at the chance to lambast the ork players who were upset with the ork news and release schedule. i was talking about ork players that think we whine too much about our very limited codex options(they do exist), not the ones that whine about us complaining about GW poorly handling of the release schedule and lack of articles (as far as orks go).
me thinks that you are more obsessed with it then the actual ork players you do seem to fight against. guess what happened, after GW finally showed some ork stuff and gave us a month to expect for a release our complaints died down (there are still some who do, but there will always be), heck, ive pretty much stopped complaining about the news because they finally answered us.
you on the other hand bring it up out of nowhere like it was your torch to carry. at this point you are whining more then the actual "whiners"
Except there is a thread full of dakkaites complaining about that exact issue.
Meanwhile, no threads complaining about the quality of the index anywhere. Everybody has accepted that codex beats index, and being the last codex left just does that.
Therefore your statement
i wonder, with all these poeple that mention ork saltiness, or even ork players who say we are too whiny,
means all those people are referring what I wrote and not to what you are talking about.
Facts are against you and your ad hominem attacks my friend.
Jidmah wrote: Except there is a thread full of dakkaites complaining about that exact issue.
Meanwhile, no threads complaining about the quality of the index anywhere. Everybody has accepted that codex beats index, and being the last codex left just does that.
Therefore your statement
i wonder, with all these poeple that mention ork saltiness, or even ork players who say we are too whiny,
means all those people are referring what I wrote and not to what you are talking about.
Facts are against you and your ad hominem attacks my friend.
"Except there is a thread full of dakkaites complaining about that exact issue."
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/761943.page do you mean this thread? im genuinely curios about what thread you talking about. cause i dont see any other thread right now in the general. the link i have here has many of those complaints....and no one has commented in 3 days....like its died down somehow, like maybe the orks players you whine about complaining are no longer complaining as much as they used to.
"Meanwhile, no threads complaining about the quality of the index anywhere. Everybody has accepted that codex beats index, and being the last codex left just does that."
hmm, i guess you right, there is no thread about peeps complaining still about their index....oh wait, no wonder i smell squig dung, because this very thread we are talking on still complains about it.
"Facts are against you and your ad hominem attacks my friend"
i guess facts are only what you believe they are, and not what they actually are, facts.
and the fact remains that you went off on a tangent about something i didn't even talk about.
is it that hard to see that i think you more of a whiner then i am?
Okay quite a while since I got game with orks. Local game games were annoyingly late starting meaning I had about 2 hours to play game making it hard to play game with orks(luckily for me it changed hour earlier!), knights came so wanted to try and then month in Japan. But now there's 1500 pts casual tournament coming on start of september(alas day after I suspect ork codex pre-order. Week later and there could have been chance I could play with brand new codex...) so figured might take orks and have good excuse to paint some of the over 100 grots I have to paint...
So basically swarm 'em with bodies. 219 boyz and grots plus character support and some KMK's for shooting.
Q would be big mek. I can't really cover boyz so he can be ignored fairly well if I use him to protect boyz so I was planning to put him with KMK's to give them some protection. I find them being targeted first quite often. Or should I replace him with another warboss with power klaw and another grot for 19 strong squad?
2 weirdboyz as I find one often enough periling to the level where using one is risk plus give me flexibility which unit I throw around. Never had really success with warpath spell.
Similar to what someone posted in the general chat thread. We shall have to see with the release or real leaks. If true, the evil suns one is by far the best imo
Gotta love how the guy in the video has no clue how orks work.
BRe-rolling ones on BS5 models? Does nothing (~5% additional chance to hit).
Cover in the open? Yeah, not great for most units, since 5+ armor is not going to safe the day. Nice for MANz and nobz though.
Evil suns really is insane. It basically makes the entire army advance with no downside, while shooting all the way there.
I like freebootas though. Assuming you can have an entire army of freebootas (and not just flash gits+badrukk), this is going to be a very good trait for shooty armies. Wipe out some injured unit, or objective holders like guardsmen, cultists or scouts and then bring down the hammer on their vehicles with the big guns. +1 to hit also makes the dakkadakkadakka stratagem very worthwhile.
Deff skulls with 6++ and one to re-roll per turn sounds decent for walkers and other more elite-oriented builds.
Goff, Snake bites are eh. FNP is not good enough to give up any of the other traits, especially since pain boyz exists and additional attacks in combat is the last thing Thrakka's clan needs.
If what's said there is true, we've got some solid clan rules. Always being in cover is of course a downgraded version of -1 to hit but it's still not that bad. In many cases it's as good as 6++ or better. And kommandoes running around with 4+ armor is neat. Depending on what else they get.
Jidmah wrote: According to the video, you only get the cover bonus when not advancing or assaulting, which makes it kind of meh again.
The interesting part about the deff skulls tactics is the re-rolls, the 6++ is just a nice add-on.
which makes the bonus almost useless as it currently stands for most of our units, our extremely short ranged weapons teamed with our focus on melee means we need to be advancing or assaulting so....yeah. The bonus to kommandos could be beneficial....if kommandos got cheaper. If I could deep strike Boyz into cover and get a 4+ save at 8ppm I might actually use them for something beyond Kamikazi distraction units.
Guys I wouldn't waste any time speculating on that video.
It's an absolutely un-verified message from a random internet stranger claiming to be a play tester. It's not a 'leak' as there isn't a shred of physical evidence to back it up. It's a weak rumour.
I called him out in the YouTube comments and he had the grace to change the video name!
hollow one wrote: TBH geargutz, everyone is in the same position. Most armies right now only have one build that wins tournaments, even with codexes.
* 1k sons: smite spam (may or may not include magnus)
* eldar: wave serpents, shining spear, dark reaper
* harlequin: bikes
* drukhari: raiders and venoms? I dunno all their gak looks the same.
* blood angels: captains and mephiston
* knights: one castellan in amongst guard
* tau: firewarrior spam, hammerheads or riptides
* CSM: what... renegade knights? nothing is working
* death guard: plaguebearers and PBC * sisters: seraphim, repressors and immolators
* ANY imperium list: where's your scouts, guard battery, and knight??
Look I'm massively simplifying it, but the point is clear.
But here in this thread, we've managed to make it a depressing mess for over a year. And you're wrong about the little success, Orks had a great time in the first 6 months, and even stole a few GT wins later in the year.
The difference is quality of the rest. One thing is having a bunch of units that are not as good as the best stuff. That's why they're more rare at tourneys. Another thing is to have a whole book of devastaror centurions and a couple good units hidden among them.
though i doubt these "leaks" are real, im actually hopeful for freebooterz getting a clan trait, they might not be a clan, but they are iconic enough to get one. besides, we need a clan to siphon all those posh boozy flashgitz into anyway.
crzylgs wrote: Guys I wouldn't waste any time speculating on that video.
It's an absolutely un-verified message from a random internet stranger claiming to be a play tester. It's not a 'leak' as there isn't a shred of physical evidence to back it up. It's a weak rumour.
I called him out in the YouTube comments and he had the grace to change the video name!
Yeah, I am putting absolutely 0 faith in this. I could come out with a video tomorrow about Deff Skulls getting +10 S as a clan trait and it would be just as credible.
Those traits seem rather lacking in quality, usefulness and creativity. So while I am hoping that they aren't real I am rather worried that this fits the build for recent ork releases, uninspired and crappy.
Fingers crossed they hired someone who understands the ork army AND knows how to write.
If those traits hold water, then they are not very well designed. The Evil Sunz is much better than the others, but it is not really thematic though, as it kind of incentivises the use of large blobs of footslogging shootaboyz. Advancing with trukks and bikes are much less critical. I dunno, I am kind of losing my appetite for 40k. I hope it comes back.
SemperMortis wrote: Those traits seem rather lacking in quality, usefulness and creativity. So while I am hoping that they aren't real I am rather worried that this fits the build for recent ork releases, uninspired and crappy.
Fingers crossed they hired someone who understands the ork army AND knows how to write.
Could you suggest a number of traits that don't lack in quality, usefullness and creativity and are balanced?
SemperMortis wrote: Those traits seem rather lacking in quality, usefulness and creativity. So while I am hoping that they aren't real I am rather worried that this fits the build for recent ork releases, uninspired and crappy.
Fingers crossed they hired someone who understands the ork army AND knows how to write.
Could you suggest a number of traits that don't lack in quality, usefullness and creativity and are balanced?
Yeah exactly. I think the traits are fine if theyre true. My main complaint is how obviously head and shoulders Evil Suns is above the others and that it doesn't properly represent that clans specialty
Wait and see the stratagems before we make any claims for viability. I'm sure -if they are true- our dear blood axes will have a -1 to be hit strategem.
That aside, the freebootaz one sounds interesting, +1 to hit for each unit killed previously this turn? I'm imagining a Wierdboy smite core to ensure there's at least one dead unit.
He also mentioned an army wide 'Dakka Dakka Dakka' rule, ranged hits of 6+ generate an extra hit. Perhaps this also means Orks auto hit on a 6? AND it would stack really well with the above Freebootaz trait.
