I'm curious how many units are going to have Clan keywords/traits. Like, what happens if only vehicles can get Evil Sunz traits? It would incentiviize Trukk boyz, yeah? Or whatever.
SemperMortis wrote: Those traits seem rather lacking in quality, usefulness and creativity. So while I am hoping that they aren't real I am rather worried that this fits the build for recent ork releases, uninspired and crappy.
Fingers crossed they hired someone who understands the ork army AND knows how to write.
Could you suggest a number of traits that don't lack in quality, usefullness and creativity and are balanced?
I agree, 90% of the wish-listed clan traits over the last year have been no more creative than these.
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Anvildude wrote: I'm curious how many units are going to have Clan keywords/traits. Like, what happens if only vehicles can get Evil Sunz traits? It would incentiviize Trukk boyz, yeah? Or whatever.
I don't think they would move far from the index in that regard, maybe opening flash gits to other klans than freebootas. I somehow doubt that snakebites would give FNP to vehicles though.
hey,maybe we will get a system like the deldar, being able to get multiple clans for cool detachments. ork fluff on waaaghs is when clans can ignore their rivalry's to band together to cromp other gits.
it would be like having our own pool of allies.
it seems Gw is more and more willing to experiment with such things with them doing the cool cabal cand covens mix matching and now the new space wolf sagas.
a cool system would be a "choose your waaaagh" that gives us back our once a game waaagh ability but gives us different variants to best suit our play styles.
dakka waaaagh (reroll all shooting?)
charging waaaaagh (extra charge dice?)
more punchy waaaagh (more atacks or better ws?)
burny waaagh (reroll all flamer hits or better rend?)
wierd waaagh (whatever this is, it would be realy weird, like tunring the enemy warlord into a squig random table stuff?)
Got a game after a long break with orks. With hour earlier start time felt that with movement trays and hour more time it might be worth it rather than usual 2 turn games in earlier times...
Anyway with next week tournament brought that list which was warboss with 6+++ and MW choppa, 2 weirdboys with da jump, KFF mek, 4x30 boyz, 2x30+2x10+19 grots and 3KMK. Also took in 2k list that was same + Ghaz, 25 stormboyz and painboy(ugh. I hate FNP as it slows down game if I face multi damage weapons but ah well) as 2k is standard here. As it is that's what I ended up playing vs rather mild DA gunline. 2 reroll wound HQ's, lib, 2x10 tax squads with heavy bolters and plasma's, 10xdevastators with 4 plasma, 2x5 scouts(one with bolters and hb, one with sniper rifles), 2 dreds(lascannon+missile and assault cannon+fist), rhino, twin lascannon razorback, 2 predators with heavy bolters and autocannon, 5 bikes.
Scenario was the one "get 10 maelstrom goals completed first" and we played sideways which was bad for me. Huge distance to gunline and he can defend in depth and I had very narrow area. Actually I ended up with grots not having good room to go so basically they tagged behind. With no deep strike threats they were basically 2nd wave to take hold objectives which I made as sure as I could were on center.
I got first turn but he seized. Drats. Last week with knights this repeated. My orks have been usually pretty good at getting first turn though...Compare to my knights who are 0/4 with first turns.
Anyway his first turn was rather mild though. 4 and 3 wounds to KMK's(2 which were protected by KFF. One had no room so was alone) and 6 boyz. Could have been worse. I rushed in full speed and da jumped 30 shoota boyz next to bikes though those were in forest. 2 wounds from peril. Shooting I dropped 3 bolter scouts with those shoota boyz and couple wounds to rhino's and razorback with KMK's(only thing on range. Another drawback of this deployment...) but whopping 7 wounds to KMK's leaving them at 5, 5 and 4. Lol. I equalled damage he caused to ME with all his lascannons. The undamaged shot 6 shots only to get 4 1's...
His turn 2 he basically vaporized stormboyz and minor damage here and there. Oh and killed painboy with snipers. Bikers shot and charged my boyz and when it was over I had about half the squad dead but started grinding damage. I rushed forward some more and da jumped with my 2nd weirdboy(perilling for 3 wounds. This is why I brought TWO da jump rather than da jump and warpath) another mob toward left front of another mob. Tried to charge into tac squad but getting 6 and 2 I CP rerolled 2 and got 2. Drat. This was bad. Only good thing was I was having good time with objectives while he was struggling getting tough ones. If I hadn't da jumped shoota boyz he would be zero as he got "charge unit with higher PL". Well guess who had just da jumped such a squad next to them...I killed some more bikes leaving 2 and slugga squad charged rhino and killed it.
Turn 3 and he started thinning boyz in force. Basically he vaporized 2 of my squads on left at once. Now his shooting dice turned around and with all the rerolls too...His predator #1 alone killed 9 boyz. Ghazkhul smashed heads and from 2 mobs only nob+boy and wounded nob were left. On center with priority order(kill units) on his warlord he advanced with tac squad, warlord and librarian. He shot at full slugga mob. Keeping in mind scenario in mind I actually took all casualties from front INCLUDING NOB. I let my nob die just to push distance between mob and warlord far. This paid off as only tac squad from them, 2 chars and fist dreadnought made it. 4 boyz, 2 tacticals died. My turn I kept getting defend objectives I could get so was doing OK. Warlord(not ghazkhul btw) charged tac squad. Actually this was probably bad as I should have concentrated keeping him safe. Left Ghaz and boyz remnants advanced and grots swarmed around objectives. Nobz charged predator and razorback for minor damage and razorback actually finished wounded nob. My warlord hit 3 times and got whopping 3 6's killing 5 tacticals and choppa boyz killed rest with overkill. I was having bit hard time by this time with maelstroms as I kept having like "witch hunter"(good luck from protective wall of tacticals and warlord and dreadnought alongside) and "defend X" which he was sitting on top of.
Turn 4. He kept blowing my army up. Lone nob which freed my ghaz which razorback then killed as I failed both 4++. Runtherd and like 25 grots on left holding defend objective forcing me to use CP to pass morale. All slugga boyz near warlord who was charged by dreadnought. I actually survived due to 6+++. KMK's were also out by now.
We checked what objectives we would have got THOUGH I forgot I had 2 sets to draw. Turn 4 and then turn 5 as I Went 2nd. Albeit game might have continued to turn 6. Either way seeing what we got it was easy to determine what we could have archieved and I Wasn't in danger of wipeout(if nothing else KFF mek was behind hill. 100% impossible for him to get to him in even 2 turns) so we calculated 8-7(biggest ? is will my warlord die but even if I flee it's hard to keep him alive for one turn) for me. Of course turn 6 would have been bad for me seeing I had like ~20, 19 and 2x10 grots left basically.
I think one issue I had in this that's common is I deploy too wide resulting in often units being one front, one behind. Opponent then concentrates on one wiping it and leaving further one behind.
Rather deploy units like 5 model wide side by side. Then if one unit gets wiped another is equal distance to enemy. Also helps with roadblocks maybe. Those are bit of issue.
Also in this game made mistake with deployment zone pick. Should have went for the one with tower. Those sniper scouts were bugger. Thought 2 hills for KMK's would be useful but forgot the range issue...They only had range to rhino/razorback all game.
Oh and the da jump turn 1 was mistake. Albeit it didn't backfire too badly but 30 boyz got dealt too easily. Should have sent 30 grots instead as roadblock/"shoot them or they tie up. If you shoot them you don't shoot boyz behind" annoyance. Been doing grot jumps lately. Should have stick with it. Oh and darn that weirdboy easy perils is annoying. Got 2 and 3 wounds and then the 3 wound one died. All 3 casts perilled.
edit: Oh and personal satisfaction. Besides 2 runtherds all models count as fully painted. Albeit tons of grots need more work to go for my final level but at least basic coat is there. For about 250 model army that's nice. Especially as over half them are painted to full level including edge highlight. My opponent hearing I edge highlight my orks said "you are nuts". I agree! ;-)
Quick question about the 7 wounds on your KMKs... You know they can only have a maximum of 1 mortal wound from rolling 1s per shooting phase? The exact wording is:
''If you roll one or more hit rolls of 1 for the weapon, the bearer suffers a mortal wound after all of this weapon's shots have been resolved''
So regardless if you roll one or more 1s to hit, you take a (single) mortal wound.
Sorry if you already knew that and the wounds came from somewhere else.
Thanks for posting the Battle Reps, I do like reading them
crzylgs wrote: Quick question about the 7 wounds on your KMKs... You know they can only have a maximum of 1 mortal wound from rolling 1s per shooting phase? The exact wording is:
''If you roll one or more hit rolls of 1 for the weapon, the bearer suffers a mortal wound after all of this weapon's shots have been resolved''
So regardless if you roll one or more 1s to hit, you take a (single) mortal wound.
Sorry if you already knew that and the wounds came from somewhere else.
Thanks for posting the Battle Reps, I do like reading them
How have I missed this? I'll have to reread that but holy crap that makes them so much safer. Thanks!
@tneva82: Well all the relevant rules are in the unit datasheets. This is so much more convenient than a bunch of USRs in god knows which book, however "standardized" those might be. I don't know how you could see this as "unneccessarily complicated".
Furthermore, the rule is not so complexly worded that you could not understand it on your first read through, so the blame is on you this time. But live and learn, as the saying goes.
But when you have 1 rule that works same it's lot easier. Well made USR rules beat up bazillion unique rules in terms of easyness. 7th ed weren't even best made but 7th ed rules are still easier to remember than 8th ed rules. When everything works uniquely it's lot harder to remeber everything. Do you find remembering 1 rule harder than 100? HAH! That's by definition false. 1 rule is always easier to remember than 100 different.
Having hundreds unique rules does not deeper game make. Ergo unneccessary complication.
tneva82 wrote: But when you have 1 rule that works same it's lot easier. Well made USR rules beat up bazillion unique rules in terms of easyness. 7th ed weren't even best made but 7th ed rules are still easier to remember than 8th ed rules. When everything works uniquely it's lot harder to remeber everything. Do you find remembering 1 rule harder than 100? HAH! That's by definition false. 1 rule is always easier to remember than 100 different.
Having hundreds unique rules does not deeper game make. Ergo unneccessary complication.
i quess its preference really, though this is more friendly to rule writers, they are no longer restricted by USRs and can customize the rule for the unit if needs be, but when its only through usr then if you want to change that rule then its either make a new rule on the unit sheet (which has the player to still reference the main unit entry..something they would be doing anyway with the current 8th edition system) or you change the usr itself, which can drastically change balance for all armies since they would all be effected, or the other option is making the unique rule and add it too the USRs but that only bloats the usr list making it eventually more detrimental and harder to remember them all. in 7th there always seemed to be 2 or 3 rules that did similar things with only slight changes throughout the usr.
the current system negates the reliance on a main rule book, so anyone can quickly learn the basic rules (that can be easily looked up for free online) for playing the game, and at that point all they need then is their codex or index (and of course chapter approved and faqs are going to complicate this a little, but its easy enough to print our faqs to just shove in your book) and just learn their faction.
again its preference,i like the new way but some will prefer the old way but i see the practicality for why GW decided to go this route with both 40k and aos.
It is not a question of depth, rather than usability. I'm sure there are fans of the old cluttered USR nightmare and fans of the new system. I enjoy the convenience of the new datasheets.
I personally think this editions rules are fine, it puts the onus onto the army owner to understand their army. Which any responsible player should do for the sake of game speed and legitimacy.
Obviously people make mistakes, or play multiple armies which spreads their focus but ultimately its up to you to play it right. I personally have not got everything for the edition figured out entirely.
I sometimes forget to take wounds on my my KMK (scumbag) and i also think i have remembered to shoot my pistols with in combat squads like twice the whole edition. those are the last 2 things i seem to forget, but im working on it.
crzylgs wrote: Quick question about the 7 wounds on your KMKs... You know they can only have a maximum of 1 mortal wound from rolling 1s per shooting phase? The exact wording is:
''If you roll one or more hit rolls of 1 for the weapon, the bearer suffers a mortal wound after all of this weapon's shots have been resolved''
So regardless if you roll one or more 1s to hit, you take a (single) mortal wound.
Sorry if you already knew that and the wounds came from somewhere else.
Thanks for posting the Battle Reps, I do like reading them
How have I missed this? I'll have to reread that but holy crap that makes them so much safer. Thanks!
No problem! Yup, a maximum of 1 mortal wound per phase is a huge difference. It is definitely worded the way I quoted.
It would have to say something like: 'take a mortal wound for EACH roll of 1 to hit'
in order for you to have to stack multiple mortal wounds per shooting phase.
Weazel wrote: @tneva82: Well all the relevant rules are in the unit datasheets. This is so much more convenient than a bunch of USRs in god knows which book, however "standardized" those might be. I don't know how you could see this as "unneccessarily complicated".
Furthermore, the rule is not so complexly worded that you could not understand it on your first read through, so the blame is on you this time. But live and learn, as the saying goes.
They could have the rules on every datasheet and still have them all work the same
Sometimes I just put wounds on random KMK's when I forget. I don't feel like it matters that much (unless your opponent is shooting that them), if they take a wound every turn they will still get to shot until turn 6.
Fingers crossed they hired someone who understands the ork army AND knows how to write.
Oof. Were you here for the 7th ed codex? I suspect that was written by someone who had never even played 40k, much less orks.
Then again, the index was fairly decent, at least for its time.
But I really REALLY am not hoping for much, especially with the space wolves codex having a day 1 errata and very little new stuff. The new buggies will be nice, but I suspect there won't be much of a release beyond it.
Even so, it would be nice to have our codex written by someone who sees orks as something besides a NPC race. Guess we'll find out soon enough.
*Dear Mork, all I want for Orktober is a Mega Armor Warboss on a Warbike. We've all been good patient boyz.*
Fingers crossed they hired someone who understands the ork army AND knows how to write.
Oof. Were you here for the 7th ed codex? I suspect that was written by someone who had never even played 40k, much less orks.
Then again, the index was fairly decent, at least for its time.
But I really REALLY am not hoping for much, especially with the space wolves codex having a day 1 errata and very little new stuff. The new buggies will be nice, but I suspect there won't be much of a release beyond it.
Even so, it would be nice to have our codex written by someone who sees orks as something besides a NPC race. Guess we'll find out soon enough.
*Dear Mork, all I want for Orktober is a Mega Armor Warboss on a Warbike. We've all been good patient boyz.*
That bike would have to be massive. I'm just imagining a MAW riding on top of a looted rhino now.
I remember 5th edition codex saying that a warboss in MA would probably fall off if he had a warbike.
I played some guy who had a MA warboss on a warbike models (he was riding a SM attack bike) and claimed that the codex didn't say he couldn't do it, just that the warboss would fall off. We rolled every move whether the warboss would fall off the bike, with him ending pinned somewhere midfield
Dojo wrote: I personally think this editions rules are fine, it puts the onus onto the army owner to understand their army. Which any responsible player should do for the sake of game speed and legitimacy.
Obviously people make mistakes, or play multiple armies which spreads their focus but ultimately its up to you to play it right. I personally have not got everything for the edition figured out entirely.
I sometimes forget to take wounds on my my KMK (scumbag) and i also think i have remembered to shoot my pistols with in combat squads like twice the whole edition. those are the last 2 things i seem to forget, but im working on it.
Agreed on the rules and I also forget to shoot pistols pretty consistently.
Then again it's a lot of rolling for a couple of wounds with no AP.
Jidmah wrote: I remember 5th edition codex saying that a warboss in MA would probably fall off if he had a warbike.
I played some guy who had a MA warboss on a warbike models (he was riding a SM attack bike) and claimed that the codex didn't say he couldn't do it, just that the warboss would fall off. We rolled every move whether the warboss would fall off the bike, with him ending pinned somewhere midfield
Dojo wrote: I personally think this editions rules are fine, it puts the onus onto the army owner to understand their army. Which any responsible player should do for the sake of game speed and legitimacy.
Obviously people make mistakes, or play multiple armies which spreads their focus but ultimately its up to you to play it right. I personally have not got everything for the edition figured out entirely.
I sometimes forget to take wounds on my my KMK (scumbag) and i also think i have remembered to shoot my pistols with in combat squads like twice the whole edition. those are the last 2 things i seem to forget, but im working on it.
Agreed on the rules and I also forget to shoot pistols pretty consistently.
Then again it's a lot of rolling for a couple of wounds with no AP.
Unless there's some weird specific scenario in mind I always begin my shooting phases with shooting all my pistol units stuck in CC since thy generally have no options for targets and otherwise I'll forget them..
I don't know about everyone else but for me the problem isn't attacks IN CC, the problem is getting enough models INTO CC. So with that in mind the
Goffs trait of 1 Extra attack for every hit roll of 6 is kind of crap honestly (This btw is from BOLs)
Bad moons with rerolling 1s....utter crap, so 36 loota shots go from 12 hits to an amazing.....14.
Blood Axes (My favorite Klan) is actually pretty good. Units can fall back, shoot and assault all in the same turn....this part is kind of crap, because realistically, what CC units do we have that don't have pistols? However the second part....Units ALWAYS count as being in cover. So now my Kommandos are walking around with a 4+ save, almost justifying their 9pt cost.
DeffSkulls: All Units have a 6+ invuln. meh, units also get 1 free reroll a phase for shooting/fighting. Not bad but honestly not that amazing.
Evil Sunz: Completely lacking in any kind of originality +1 to movement, advance and charges. Also units ignore -1 to hit when using assault weapons after advancing, All I can think of is the Shoota boyz and Bikers, but again, our shooting is already crap so unless that gets a buff in general I don't see that being all that useful.
Snakebites: These are probably going to be the new cool Klan for players. They get a built in 6+ FNP, whether it stacks with the Dokz buff we don't know yet but if it does, that answers the question of durability. If you can use all those saves combined you get a 6+ Armor save, a 6+ fnp and a 6+ Snakebite save (A Snave )
Finally....Freebooters: Units gain +1 to hit after you destroy an enemy unit....not bad but honestly, how often is our shooting killing an enemy unit? I honestly see a lot of ork players suddenly becoming Snake Bite fans or My personal favorites Blood Axes. the others are kind of lackluster except maybe the Evil sunz if our Warbikes/koptas/buggies get a big boost in durability/damage output I can see them being a real threat with that +3inch movement.
I'm a deffskulls fan and I will continue to ride or die with them. I think it could be quite good provided that all of our vehicles receive a nice points decrease. Plus not having to buy multiple KFFs can really save you some points.
I also think the one reroll per phase thing could be great for things like Tankbustas w/ squig bombs. Possibly Lootas if we are able to reroll the # of shots. And also our vehicles with KMK and the like.
Also there have been complaints of a lack of invuls for Orks pretty much army wide for 2-3 editions now. If this does turn out like eldar where essentially every unit gets it, it could be quite powerful.
Blood Axes (My favorite Klan) is actually pretty good. Units can fall back, shoot and assault all in the same turn....this part is kind of crap, because realistically, what CC units do we have that don't have pistols? However the second part....Units ALWAYS count as being in cover. So now my Kommandos are walking around with a 4+ save, almost justifying their 9pt cost.
Benefit of fall back and charge over pistol would be a) not getting bogged down vs less interesting unit but can charge instead more interesting target b) you get to strike as charger which means you get to attack with all your units rather than first with all new charges, then alternate with enemy so he can't strike somewhere before you killing some orks and thus reducing your attacks.
Evil Sunz: Completely lacking in any kind of originality +1 to movement, advance and charges. Also units ignore -1 to hit when using assault weapons after advancing, All I can think of is the Shoota boyz and Bikers, but again, our shooting is already crap so unless that gets a buff in general I don't see that being all that useful.
Snakebites: These are probably going to be the new cool Klan for players. They get a built in 6+ FNP, whether it stacks with the Dokz buff we don't know yet but if it does, that answers the question of durability. If you can use all those saves combined you get a 6+ Armor save, a 6+ fnp and a 6+ Snakebite save (A Snave )
Evil sunz might not be original but it would be bloody powerful and maybe best of the bunch.
As for snakebite...I would avoid that like plague just for sake of time especially for green horde style list. Imagine rolling all those 6+++ for multi damage weapons. "Here's crusader that does like 9 D2 wounds . Now roll 2 dice 9 times..."
Whether it's good or bad I don't care but I would run out of time with that one.
If the traits turn out to be true (I'm calling them wishlisting btw), the Evil Suns trait pretty much wins, unless it is vehicles only or something.
I mean footslogging Orks are pretty slow, and getting +2" when advancing and +3" when advancing and charging is pretty damn powerful. Because like SemperMortis said, getting INTO melee is the biggest challenge and the Evil Sunz trait would help immensely in that regard. In addition to helping the slog it would also help Da Jumping boyz get into melee with a roll of 8 instead of 9.
Weazel wrote: If the traits turn out to be true (I'm calling them wishlisting btw), the Evil Suns trait pretty much wins, unless it is vehicles only or something.
I mean footslogging Orks are pretty slow, and getting +2" when advancing and +3" when advancing and charging is pretty damn powerful. Because like SemperMortis said, getting INTO melee is the biggest challenge and the Evil Sunz trait would help immensely in that regard. In addition to helping the slog it would also help Da Jumping boyz get into melee with a roll of 8 instead of 9.
True. I'm not confident they are true but if yes I expect lots of red&yellow repainting!
Actually having had to decide between goffs, evil sunz and bad moon whom I paint new big choppa nob for next week tournament I opted to go for evil sunz. Maybe it's not true but one of those(or deth skulls but they already have big choppa nob) needed it and all will get more units anyway so it's just matter of what to paint first so no disaster either way if untrue.
I just want those 4 clans to have useful traits! Would suck to repaint ;-)
Well I love Goffs and have painted my Orks as such, but we are not strict with Klan colors in our group. My mate runs Alaitoc traits with a Biel-Tan painted army so...
But might be fun to paint a few red guys and/or vehicles just to have them join my black & white Waaaagh
SemperMortis wrote: Blood Axes (My favorite Klan) is actually pretty good. Units can fall back, shoot and assault all in the same turn....this part is kind of crap, because realistically, what CC units do we have that don't have pistols? However the second part....Units ALWAYS count as being in cover. So now my Kommandos are walking around with a 4+ save, almost justifying their 9pt cost.
Well, cc units without pistols? Nobz, MANz, shoota boyz, burnas, deffrolla battlewagons, nauts, kanz... plenty, actually. Also don't underestimate the advantage of been able to fall back and shoot for units like lootas, flash gits or warbikers, in case they get bogged down by something. Considering that the Jormungandr works for monstrous creature, it's not unlikely that this might give cover to everything, bumping vehicles and bikes to 3+ and walkers to 2+ armor vs shooting. Since all my orks are bloodaxe I really hope for synergy between the trait and battlewagons.
Evil Sunz: Completely lacking in any kind of originality +1 to movement, advance and charges. Also units ignore -1 to hit when using assault weapons after advancing, All I can think of is the Shoota boyz and Bikers, but again, our shooting is already crap so unless that gets a buff in general I don't see that being all that useful.
If rokkits would be priced for boyz instead of space marines, this could be very useful to fire rokkits from your boyz mobs while advancing. If the new buggy turret weapons are assault weapons (heavy would suck for many reasons), they would also benefit from this a lot, as would koptas. Outside of that it just a nice add-on to "Boyz can charge 8"+3d6 as long as you have warboss near" (take that, super-sonic genestealers!). +1 to charge also massively increases the chance of deep striking units getting into assault. IMO this is hands down the best one.
Snakebites: These are probably going to be the new cool Klan for players. They get a built in 6+ FNP, whether it stacks with the Dokz buff we don't know yet but if it does, that answers the question of durability. If you can use all those saves combined you get a 6+ Armor save, a 6+ fnp and a 6+ Snakebite save (A Snave )
Since the last FAQ, FNP never stacks. So it's just "everyone is a pain boy!". If doc tools doesn't explicitly increase this to 5+ or something, I don't think this will be very good.
Finally....Freebooters: Units gain +1 to hit after you destroy an enemy unit....not bad but honestly, how often is our shooting killing an enemy unit?
You don't need to 100 to 0 a unit to trigger this. Hitting some character with a rokkit, finishing off a unit that has fallen back from combat etc can all trigger this. Most armies also bring chaff units that could die to sluggas shooting at them, like cultists. Even under the current rules, dakka jets and burna bommers can score first blood more often than not. In the right army, I'd guess that this will basically giving you +1 BS every turn from turn 2 forward - assuming freebootas are not limited to just Badrukk and Flash Gits.
Weazel wrote: Well I love Goffs and have painted my Orks as such, but we are not strict with Klan colors in our group. My mate runs Alaitoc traits with a Biel-Tan painted army so...
But might be fun to paint a few red guys and/or vehicles just to have them join my black & white Waaaagh
Well I have models in 4 klan colours so it makes "count-as" system bit less convenient. Grumble grumble. Started this army years ago in 2nd ed style of different klans working together.
yeah, i too doubt this rumor is true, but my favorite of these rumored clans is by far the blood axes.
i would love to run dreadmobs, and the bloodaxe one works best with that. always acting in cover makes all ork walkers 2+saves and thus more survaivable when they get hit by those nasty common -1 rending weapons. also the ability to pull out of combat and then release a hail of effective dakka form killkans and then charge back in to finish what just didn't get exploded works the best for me.
infact i think the bloodaxe trait works for all vehicles/elites ork units. most units like nobz/meganobz/trucks/buggies/bikes and wagons have armor saves that can get decent with just a cover bonus and also usually can bring ranged wpns in all varieties. that ability to pop out of combat and shoot then charge back in would be the best way to run anything that isnt boyz or has a 6+ save (unfortunately komandoes would hardly benefit with this trait).
so like i said, i doubt their true, but if the bloodaxe one was in the codex in some way i would use that trait all the time.
tilds wrote: Being able to fall back and charge again would also work well with Ghazghkull's +1 attack on charge aura if that stays the same in the codex.
Thrakka will probably be locked in to Goff though.
tilds wrote: Being able to fall back and charge again would also work well with Ghazghkull's +1 attack on charge aura if that stays the same in the codex.
Thrakka will probably be locked in to Goff though.
Could be. Then again Ghazz is famous for having united klans for one big waagh. If somebody can affect multiple klans it's Ghaz.
Yeah, I can see him getting an exception like Cypher or Fabius Bile. Or he might break detachments he is in like Gulliman or Celestine. We have precedents for both.
SemperMortis wrote: I don't know about everyone else but for me the problem isn't attacks IN CC, the problem is getting enough models INTO CC. So with that in mind the
Goffs trait of 1 Extra attack for every hit roll of 6 is kind of crap honestly (This btw is from BOLs)
Bad moons with rerolling 1s....utter crap, so 36 loota shots go from 12 hits to an amazing.....14.
Blood Axes (My favorite Klan) is actually pretty good. Units can fall back, shoot and assault all in the same turn....this part is kind of crap, because realistically, what CC units do we have that don't have pistols? However the second part....Units ALWAYS count as being in cover. So now my Kommandos are walking around with a 4+ save, almost justifying their 9pt cost.
DeffSkulls: All Units have a 6+ invuln. meh, units also get 1 free reroll a phase for shooting/fighting. Not bad but honestly not that amazing.
Evil Sunz: Completely lacking in any kind of originality +1 to movement, advance and charges. Also units ignore -1 to hit when using assault weapons after advancing, All I can think of is the Shoota boyz and Bikers, but again, our shooting is already crap so unless that gets a buff in general I don't see that being all that useful.
Snakebites: These are probably going to be the new cool Klan for players. They get a built in 6+ FNP, whether it stacks with the Dokz buff we don't know yet but if it does, that answers the question of durability. If you can use all those saves combined you get a 6+ Armor save, a 6+ fnp and a 6+ Snakebite save (A Snave )
Finally....Freebooters: Units gain +1 to hit after you destroy an enemy unit....not bad but honestly, how often is our shooting killing an enemy unit? I honestly see a lot of ork players suddenly becoming Snake Bite fans or My personal favorites Blood Axes. the others are kind of lackluster except maybe the Evil sunz if our Warbikes/koptas/buggies get a big boost in durability/damage output I can see them being a real threat with that +3inch movement.
Honestly, we don't know how the freebooter one is going to work yet. So far all it says is +1 to hit after you destroy a unit. It doesn't say +1 to hit in the shooting phase, just +1 to hit. It also says when you destroy a unit, not destroy a unit in the shooting phase. with this info if You get into CC early and wipe a unit. Now your whole army is +1 to hit, both CC and shooting.
Guys, I would put absolutely ZERO faith in the 'leaked' ork clan rumors. Like, it's not worth even discussing how they would work, because I'm about 99% certain its fake.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Guys, I would put absolutely ZERO faith in the 'leaked' ork clan rumors. Like, it's not worth even discussing how they would work, because I'm about 99% certain its fake.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Guys, I would put absolutely ZERO faith in the 'leaked' ork clan rumors. Like, it's not worth even discussing how they would work, because I'm about 99% certain its fake.
This is also very possible.
Because they are categorically not a leak. They stem from an anonymous, unverified message that a YouTuber may or may not have received in order to put out some content and get some views.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Guys, I would put absolutely ZERO faith in the 'leaked' ork clan rumors. Like, it's not worth even discussing how they would work, because I'm about 99% certain its fake.
This is also very possible.
Because they are categorically not a leak. They stem from an anonymous, unverified message that a YouTuber may or may not have received in order to put out some content and get some views.
Absolutely. I like Valrak, he brings a great energy to 40k, as does Kirioth but the two of them love some clickbait views. I don't think there's anything in these Clan trait rumours.
Very true about the "Leak" but at the same time at least we get to talk about ork stuff beyond "stop taking those just bring more boyz".
Also, on the off chance these traits are true, Kommandos get +1 to cover so if they always count as in cover they have a 4+ save not a 5+ save. So imagine being able to turn 2 deep strike 45 boyz (because atm they are just slightly worse boyz) with a 4+ save into the enemy lines. 405pts for 45 boyz that will actually take a bit of shooting to remove team that up with 30 Jumping boyz and suddenly you have turned the enemies flank with 75 boyz for the price of 585pts + Weirdboy. 45 with a 4+ save and 30 with a 5+ save
Shrapnelbait wrote: Fall back, shoot and charge would be great for Kans and Dreads that are armed with scorchas.
I can't see vehicle units always having cover though, that seems kinda odd?
Admech gets that with Shroudpsalm. Although that isn't a trait as such, rather something you roll for. But if Cawl's on the board it's almost guaranteed to be in effect every turn.
I don't think the traits "leaked" are real, but merely someones speculation. Still though, it wouldn't surprise me if some of these traits end up being in the codex. There are just so many combinations you can do as clan traits and some of these seem like pretty boring, but safe options. Obviously I'd hate it if my Evil Sunz trait ends up being the logical choice for footsloggers and barely useful for vehicles.
By the way, is there anything announced for 40k between now and Orktober?
ok, ill be going to an itc tournament late September. its more of a mix tourney with 1/3 pts for modeling and painting, 1/3 for sportsmanship, and 1/3 for the actual tournament itself.
this is what im bringing
x3 bike meks with kff bikeboss with killchoppah
x9 warbikers (3 sperate squads with pk and bigchoppahs)
x6 warbuggies (2 squads with one with rokets and one with bigshootas)
x15 skorcha wartracks (3 seperate squads)
bigtrak with supa skorcha
(everything divides into 3 different pincer attacks with a kff each)
the list im bringing i know isn't very competitive (im hoping to do well in sportsmanship and the painting) but i wanted to get your guyz opinion on how well this will do with current meta (despite it being only 1/3rd of the score there are some dbags that still come to win for itc points) and if you guys got pointers on how to play my list (unfortunately i don't get many chances to play these days so i don't get much practice with my list).
at this point im set in my list, i cant change anything. just wanted to get your guys opinions.
its going to a themed mad max like speed freeks list (unfortunately the models and codex arnt coming till after the tourney...bummer)
I would deploy everything you are allowed to in reserve and do your best to hide the rest. You won't be very durable, but you have good speed, so being in reserve or hidden in weird spots won't hold you back and protect you from early rounds of shooting.
PiñaColada wrote: Wait, fifteen skorchas? Are you sure you don't mean burnas?
i know its confusing, but its the wartrack with skorcha upgrade, but in the index that's what the unit is confusingly bloody called. so that's what i meant. ill fix it.
PiñaColada wrote: Wait, fifteen skorchas? Are you sure you don't mean burnas?
i know its confusing, but its the wartrack with skorcha upgrade, but in the index that's what the unit is confusingly bloody called. so that's what i meant. ill fix it.
No, I understood what you meant. They're just called skorchas. I guess I was just taken aback by the sheer amount of them you'll be fielding.. That's gotta be dang near half your army, right?
geargutz wrote: ok, ill be going to an itc tournament late September. its more of a mix tourney with 1/3 pts for modeling and painting, 1/3 for sportsmanship, and 1/3 for the actual tournament itself.
this is what im bringing
x3 bike meks with kff bikeboss with killchoppah
x9 warbikers (3 sperate squads with pk and bigchoppahs)
x6 warbuggies (2 squads with one with rokets and one with bigshootas)
x15 skorchas (3 seperate squads)
bigtrak with supa skorcha
(everything divides into 3 different pincer attacks with a kff each)
the list im bringing i know isn't very competitive (im hoping to do well in sportsmanship and the painting) but i wanted to get your guyz opinion on how well this will do with current meta (despite it being only 1/3rd of the score there are some dbags that still come to win for itc points) and if you guys got pointers on how to play my list (unfortunately i don't get many chances to play these days so i don't get much practice with my list).
at this point im set in my list, i cant change anything. just wanted to get your guys opinions.
its going to a themed mad max like speed freeks list (unfortunately the models and codex arnt coming till after the tourney...bummer)
You are probably setting yourself up for some tablings, since you have so few wounds on the table, but I guess you already knew that. Try to stay out of sight as much as possible. I would at least toss in a unit of gretchin or three to sit on objectives and gain some more CP. Even orks have a use for re-rolls.
Note you also have no way of dealing with a knight or even multiples, so maybe you should consider putting some tankbustaz into your big trakk or adding some KMK/kannons. You can also try to block their movement by standing just outside of 1" from them, they cannot move over your buggies or bikes. Keep in mind that character knights can do heroic interventions though.
For your skorchas, keep in mind that their deployment option is a trap. A skorcha can just advance into your enemy's lines and flame away, while a skorcha coming in from a flank can't shoot before turn 3.
No, I understood what you meant. They're just called skorchas. I guess I was just taken aback by the sheer amount of them you'll be fielding.. That's gotta be dang near half your army, right?
Big fan of the idea though
yeah, i wanted to have a themed ork mad max like list. i could've brought alot of bikes, but i wanted to have a lot of converted cars and trucks and everything in between, i also didn't want to deal too much with poor ork ballistic skill so it was skorchas (i know ill have to get close to use them but that's fine) so that's why i have so many skorchas.
at 2000 pts i have quite the good sized mortorcade. Ive at least had some experience with the skorchas and i know to not reserves them, but the normal buggies i have can do that. as far as adding stuff, everything is set, no room to change. but i knew i was bringing something bad but fluffy. wasn't willing to add footslogerz because they cant keep up with the other ladz (dis ere iz da speed freeks, wez dont have time fer slow gitz). if i need to intercept a knight i at least have some war bikers. yeah, i dont have much for anti armor, but my anti horde is decent. maybe ill get lucky with rock paper sciccors.
I love your list and you sound like my kind of player. That said, the army will struggle. you have next to no close combat punch and your army is geared to shoot a horde so vehicles are going to give you fits.
That said, you're super fast. Play smart and go for objectives. Take pics!
I'll be taking unusual list for pounding tomorrow. Will be likely lousy but don't feel like playing horde tomorrow with 3 games as super horde looming on sunday.
Bat 1:
Warboss w/relic big choppa, 6+++
weirdboy w/da jump
2x30 boyz with big choppa, pk, 19 shootas in one, 29 in other
2x30 grots
10xgrots
runtherd
3xKMK
dakkajet 6xsupa shoota
So weird ork gunline. Grot walls will be used to delay enemy. Boyz will be more of last line, possibly hiding behind LOS if available in which case one weirdboy baby sits them while other throws grots toward enemy. Flashgits and lootas go to battlewagon with KFF nearby, if terrain/deployment allows KMK's will be around there too to get 5++ at least for turn 1.
Basically try to play for objectives while use grots to keep enemy far from my me.
I'll be screwed royally against gunline though Trying to outgunline gunline with orks would be bad ;-)
I have never ever actually benefitted from the warpath. That's why. Combining with da jump isn't good as it's still 50-50 it works. And every time I have made charge with warpath in I haven't NEEDED the spell. I have steam rolled target anyway. It's so rarely you a) NEED that spell b) make the charge. Da jump+warpath is too unreliable.
Also combining the two means you use both weirdboys at once and with tons of green models around that means high modifiers which means high chance of perils which means next time you have high chance of dying from peril which means failed spell. I treat weirdboys as "one shot" weapons. Reliably get off spell once, after that don't count on getting spells off. So I would basically burn out my spells in one turn.
I find ability to reliably da jump 2 units more useful than the warpath that...Well so far has done no useful thing whatsoever. Either I fail to get the charge or I wipe out target anyway without needing the spell.
Also gives flexibility on what unit I da jump. 1 weirdboy struggles to cover entire army as potential da jump target.
That's the generic reason why I prefer 2xda jump over da jump+warpath. In this particular list...Well you might notice I don't even plan to get into combat all that much. Boyz will be held backfield until turn 3-4 likely. They will definitely NOT be used to warpath+da jump and try on turn 1 or 2 as that means giving up half my boyz(any da jumped squad tends to die right away so if they don't make charge they die without doing anything but shooting. Which btw means I da jump shoota units rather than choppa units) for 50-50 charge. Too expensive.
SemperMortis wrote: I don't know about everyone else but for me the problem isn't attacks IN CC, the problem is getting enough models INTO CC. So with that in mind the
Goffs trait of 1 Extra attack for every hit roll of 6 is kind of crap honestly (This btw is from BOLs)
I think this makes trukk boyz viable, smaller squads with higher damage output and speed.
SemperMortis wrote: Bad moons with rerolling 1s....utter crap, so 36 loota shots go from 12 hits to an amazing.....14.
I think this is significantly better than the freebooters buff in most situations, good to have, probably won't take unless I'm taking a fleet of dakka jets.
SemperMortis wrote: Blood Axes (My favorite Klan) is actually pretty good. Units can fall back, shoot and assault all in the same turn....this part is kind of crap, because realistically, what CC units do we have that don't have pistols? However the second part....Units ALWAYS count as being in cover. So now my Kommandos are walking around with a 4+ save, almost justifying their 9pt cost.
100% agree here, except the fall back and charge thing, that is actually the better half of rule. Being able to shoot at a unit after falling back from other units is awesome, re-charging gives you first attacks again, rebuff from Ghaz if he's around, allow you to tri-point a weak unit by charging past the unit that you just fell back from. This is easily the best thing that has been leaked.
SemperMortis wrote: DeffSkulls: All Units have a 6+ invuln. meh, units also get 1 free reroll a phase for shooting/fighting. Not bad but honestly not that amazing.
KMK love this, no questions you paint your mek guns blue if this is true.
SemperMortis wrote: Evil Sunz: Completely lacking in any kind of originality +1 to movement, advance and charges. Also units ignore -1 to hit when using assault weapons after advancing, All I can think of is the Shoota boyz and Bikers, but again, our shooting is already crap so unless that gets a buff in general I don't see that being all that useful.
as boring as this is, its probably the second best footslogging trait, and I'm tempted to agree with Jid in saying this might be the best for deepstrike considerations alone.
SemperMortis wrote: Snakebites: These are probably going to be the new cool Klan for players. They get a built in 6+ FNP, whether it stacks with the Dokz buff we don't know yet but if it does, that answers the question of durability. If you can use all those saves combined you get a 6+ Armor save, a 6+ fnp and a 6+ Snakebite save (A Snave )
FNP for your entire army is just time consuming, basically giving you 16% extra wounds across the entire army? The numbers here might be too good to pass up, but then again painboys exist. I'd have to do the numbers in costing wounds per painboy etc. I'd probably never run this for time reasons alone.
SemperMortis wrote: Finally....Freebooters: Units gain +1 to hit after you destroy an enemy unit....not bad but honestly, how often is our shooting killing an enemy unit?
even if this is army wide, you need a kill to get it started, and even then it's only a 16% increase (albeit thats better than reroll 1s), unless your entire army is shooting, you'd need less than 10% (give or take) of your armies shooting to kill a unit to make this trait better than bad moons.
SemperMortis wrote: I honestly see a lot of ork players suddenly becoming Snake Bite fans or My personal favorites Blood Axes. the others are kind of lackluster except maybe the Evil sunz if our Warbikes/koptas/buggies get a big boost in durability/damage output I can see them being a real threat with that +3inch movement.
Blood Axes and Evil Sunz are probably the best two for green tide. I think if our shooting profiles haven't changed much (KMK still best to take etc) then deffskulls are the best shooting (with side benefit of rerolling PK swings), followed by bad moons depending on your type of shooting.
I believe these rumors, personally. They feel measured and balanced. But I guess we'll see.
Yeah, the rumoured klan traits are basically confirmed at this point as far as I'm concerned. There might be minor tweaks to them or some nuances in the wording that were lost in the video.
I guess it's also possible that GW does the same thing as with the Space Wolves warlord traits but considering the backlash that has gotten and the fact that felt more like a one-off mistake I'd say that's unlikely..
As people have noted though, klan traits are good but it's the possible synergy, or standalone prowess, with their unique stratagems that's really going to cinch the deal for a lot of people..
Also FNP is not really 16% extra wounds. Rolling 6, 2 and 5 for D3 weapon against boy is 100% useless. It's more true for say knights and even there 6+++ is not 16% extra wounds(close but not quite)
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PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, the rumoured klan traits are basically confirmed at this point as far as I'm concerned. There might be minor tweaks to them or some nuances in the wording that were lost in the video.
I guess it's also possible that GW does the same thing as with the Space Wolves warlord traits but considering the backlash that has gotten and the fact that felt more like a one-off mistake I'd say that's unlikely..
As people have noted though, klan traits are good but it's the possible synergy, or standalone prowess, with their unique stratagems that's really going to cinch the deal for a lot of people..
Backlash is irrelevant. There was no backlash before they were officially told and at that point _ork codex was already done and already likely in shipping from china_. Ork codex rules were likely finalized early this year...
For me seems I'll be using evil sunz as core especially for teleporting(if it can be used to teleport multiple squads) and da jump for 8" charges and deth skulls with either goffs and bad moons for 3rd. Maybe get blood axes later.
I guess it depends on if they caught the space wolves mistake before the ork codex went to the printers. Obviously no backlash had happened at that point but I'm fairly certain GW would anticipate a lot of disappointed people.
Whether or not that is the case, it feels quite unlikely that the same thing would happen to the Ork codex.
Regarding the klan rules, I'm already set at Evil Sunz since that's how my army is painted and I don't want to play them in the "wrong" colours. However, considering most people don't really take issue with that it's a bit early to rule out some klans. Maybe snakebites get a super useful stratagem, like Veterans of the Long War or something, who knows?
Snakebites would have to get pretty darn awesome strategy to compensate for likely getting 1-2 turns less played than other klans! Albeit helps with less time limited enviroments but I have already hard time enough getting games over in time.
geargutz wrote: ok, ill be going to an itc tournament late September. its more of a mix tourney with 1/3 pts for modeling and painting, 1/3 for sportsmanship, and 1/3 for the actual tournament itself.
this is what im bringing
x3 bike meks with kff bikeboss with killchoppah
x9 warbikers (3 sperate squads with pk and bigchoppahs)
x6 warbuggies (2 squads with one with rokets and one with bigshootas)
x15 skorcha wartracks (3 seperate squads)
bigtrak with supa skorcha
(everything divides into 3 different pincer attacks with a kff each)
the list im bringing i know isn't very competitive (im hoping to do well in sportsmanship and the painting) but i wanted to get your guyz opinion on how well this will do with current meta (despite it being only 1/3rd of the score there are some dbags that still come to win for itc points) and if you guys got pointers on how to play my list (unfortunately i don't get many chances to play these days so i don't get much practice with my list).
at this point im set in my list, i cant change anything. just wanted to get your guys opinions.
its going to a themed mad max like speed freeks list (unfortunately the models and codex arnt coming till after the tourney...bummer)
if i have these traits available for the tourney list i posted earlier (look at spoiler for list)(not in time but fun to think about) i would prefer the blooddaxes trait. everything is already speedy and most of my biggest damage dealers are skorchas (so dont really suffer from advance move and shoot). my whole morotecade gets cover from shooting (that combined with the kff bike meks and these guys get pretty hard) and then if the skorchas get stukk in combat they can quickly pop out and flame the enemy and get nice overwacth crispiness if they dare charge again.
not sure what stratagem i would use beside the "ramming speed" one, but only a few times since my list has few command points to spend, would probably do it for a single skorchas squad if i really want something dead (especially if the mortal wounds are calculated per model basis, might make this stratagem best for killkan and buggie squads because they are the few vehicle squads that have the most models).
Hehe I had been thinking of evil sunz killa kans(which I don't yet have painted...Guess I might need some more. Bit over dozen killa kans not enough it seems ) with that strategem. Teleport, 8" charge with 3d6" and then MW's in some capacity. 6 of them would fit in. Too bad deff dreads are separate units.
SemperMortis wrote: I don't know about everyone else but for me the problem isn't attacks IN CC, the problem is getting enough models INTO CC. So with that in mind the
Goffs trait of 1 Extra attack for every hit roll of 6 is kind of crap honestly (This btw is from BOLs)
I think this makes trukk boyz viable, smaller squads with higher damage output and speed.
I don't see how 5-6 extra attacks are going to save trukkboyz. IMO, this is more interesting for deff dreads or nauts, since a single extra attack means a lot in their case. Also note that Thrakka will probably always have this trait. It would also be awesome for MANz, but -1 to hit on PK and saws is kind of a buzzkill.
SemperMortis wrote: Bad moons with rerolling 1s....utter crap, so 36 loota shots go from 12 hits to an amazing.....14.
I think this is significantly better than the freebooters buff in most situations, good to have, probably won't take unless I'm taking a fleet of dakka jets.
If you can kill any unit, the freeboota trait will vastly outperform "re-roll ones", being more than three times as good mathmatically.
SemperMortis wrote: DeffSkulls: All Units have a 6+ invuln. meh, units also get 1 free reroll a phase for shooting/fighting. Not bad but honestly not that amazing.
KMK love this, no questions you paint your mek guns blue if this is true.
I didn't think about that, but you're right. KMK (and other mek guns) split into separate units, so you get one re-roll per gun.
SemperMortis wrote: Finally....Freebooters: Units gain +1 to hit after you destroy an enemy unit....not bad but honestly, how often is our shooting killing an enemy unit?
even if this is army wide, you need a kill to get it started, and even then it's only a 16% increase (albeit thats better than reroll 1s), unless your entire army is shooting, you'd need less than 10% (give or take) of your armies shooting to kill a unit to make this trait better than bad moons.
In my experience, both dakkajets and burna bommers can easily wipe a unit of objective-sitting infantry like cultists, guardsmen or pathfinders without help. This should be enough to get +1 to hit for big guns like KMK, tank bustas or lootas.
The trait would do nothing against knight armies though, so that might kill it for competitive gaming.
Well when it comes to Goffs it's a bit of a stretch, you're right. No ones too excited about exploding 6s.
But Badmoons is probably better man.
Let's use only 4+ shooting for now. Badmoons adds 16*.5 hits, (super rough) so we're looking at 8% buff across the board.
Freebooters: after a unit is dead, we're looking at a 16% buff. Basically double.
Using your Dakkajet, let's say it wipes a squad to last man every turn, as the first shooter, killing the unit without morale needed. (ideal situation for freebooters). You need to shoot with at least another 148 Freebooter points to break even with Badmoons, then every point after that starts gaining benefit.
In that ideal situation, Freebooters sounds better. But I think in practice you might hit that ideal for 3/6 turns, and if you miss, or rely on morale to kill the unit, or overshoot to ensure you get the kill, all of these factors reduce the value of Freebooters. I think Badmoons will be better in practice across most armies and situations, unless you have like... 1500 points of shooting (even then I dunno mate).
hollow one wrote: Well when it comes to Goffs it's a bit of a stretch, you're right. No ones too excited about exploding 6s.
Well dunno. With nob banner making it potentially exploding 5's it could be good. Especially as generally by the time you get to charge orks are often <20 anyway so attacks aren't THAT plentiful. I don't see myself repainting my goffs.
(ironically goffs might be the klan for trukk boyz rather than evil sunz...)
hollow one wrote: Well when it comes to Goffs it's a bit of a stretch, you're right. No ones too excited about exploding 6s.
But Badmoons is probably better man.
Let's use only 4+ shooting for now. Badmoons adds 16*.5 hits, (super rough) so we're looking at 8% buff across the board.
Freebooters: after a unit is dead, we're looking at a 16% buff. Basically double.
Most of our shooting isn't 4+ though. Only mek guns, flash gits and dakkajets are. You'll probably want to go all shooty with one of these traits, which would include a lot of 5+ units, who only gain 5.55% from re-rolling ones, but still 16.66% from +1 to hit.
You need to shoot with at least another 148 Freebooter points to break even with Badmoons, then every point after that starts gaining benefit.
That's usually less than one unit to outperform badmoons.
In that ideal situation, Freebooters sounds better. But I think in practice you might hit that ideal for 3/6 turns, and if you miss, or rely on morale to kill the unit, or overshoot to ensure you get the kill, all of these factors reduce the value of Freebooters. I think Badmoons will be better in practice across most armies and situations, unless you have like... 1500 points of shooting (even then I dunno mate).
Unless your army was all shooting units, why would pick either clan trait?
Have you noticed that all ork clan traits are fluffy yet benrfit the opposite archetype the most?
For example:
Evil suns. Speedy, love light vehicles and trukk boyz the most.
Almost useless for trukks, and light speedy lists. Benefit footslogging boyz and large slow robots the most.
Snakebites. Brutish, like hordes of boyz, don't really trust vehicles all that much.
Boyz allready have access to fnp and i doubt that even if it goes to 5+ it's gona be worth bringing over other clans. Benefit large multiwound models the most. Like walkers, buggies, trukks...
Goffs. The largest clan that's famous for having tons of brutal nobz and meganobz.
Clan trait doesn't benefit meganobz and klaw nobz. Will only be used as a min detachment for Ghaz.
koooaei wrote: Have you noticed that all ork clan traits are fluffy yet benrfit the opposite archetype the most?
For example: Evil suns. Speedy, love light vehicles and trukk boyz the most. Almost useless for trukks, and light speedy lists. Benefit footslogging boyz and large slow robots the most.
Snakebites. Brutish, like hordes of boyz, don't really trust vehicles all that much. Boyz allready have access to fnp and i doubt that even if it goes to 5+ it's gona be worth bringing over other clans. Benefit large multiwound models the most. Like walkers, buggies, trukks...
Goffs. The largest clan that's famous for having tons of brutal nobz and meganobz. Clan trait doesn't benefit meganobz and klaw nobz. Will only be used as a min detachment for Ghaz.
You can go on...
not sure I agree with you about Goffs...their core is lots of boyz and nobz with choppas/big choppas...get stuck in and give 'em a good proppa krumpin'...extra attacks on 6's in melee feels pretty fluffy to me
and snakebites are known for being abnormally tough even by ork standards...so them shrugging off wounds makes sense to me too...
and evil sunz just like going fast and being on the move...they're not all about the "kult of speed", which is all bikes/buggies all the time...so everything moving a bit faster than other orks, and being able to shoot while running, also feels pretty fluffy...
...is the problem that it's actually too accurate to fluff?
Jidmah wrote: Most of our shooting isn't 4+ though. Only mek guns, flash gits and dakkajets are. You'll probably want to go all shooty with one of these traits, which would include a lot of 5+ units, who only gain 5.55% from re-rolling ones, but still 16.66% from +1 to hit.
You need to shoot with at least another 148 Freebooter points to break even with Badmoons, then every point after that starts gaining benefit.
That's usually less than one unit to outperform badmoons.
In that ideal situation, Freebooters sounds better. But I think in practice you might hit that ideal for 3/6 turns, and if you miss, or rely on morale to kill the unit, or overshoot to ensure you get the kill, all of these factors reduce the value of Freebooters. I think Badmoons will be better in practice across most armies and situations, unless you have like... 1500 points of shooting (even then I dunno mate).
Unless your army was all shooting units, why would pick either clan trait?
Anything that's shooting at 5+ isn't really part of the conversation IMO, I would consider tank bustas and that's about it. So it was just easier to do a 4+ calculation. But I take your point, and it makes Freebooters better again, maybe they are comparable.
I'm not sure how to read your winky face... but you'll put your shooty in a shooty detachment (KMK and HQ will go in Deffskulls spearhead for e.g.) and your green tide in a Evil Sunz detachment or whatever. I know there are a lot of people who want pure shooty lists up in here, and all one clan coz its fluffy, but yeah... I want to win so I'm going to mix.
koooaei wrote: Have you noticed that all ork clan traits are fluffy yet benrfit the opposite archetype the most?
For example:
Evil suns. Speedy, love light vehicles and trukk boyz the most.
Almost useless for trukks, and light speedy lists. Benefit footslogging boyz and large slow robots the most.
Snakebites. Brutish, like hordes of boyz, don't really trust vehicles all that much.
Boyz allready have access to fnp and i doubt that even if it goes to 5+ it's gona be worth bringing over other clans. Benefit large multiwound models the most. Like walkers, buggies, trukks...
Goffs. The largest clan that's famous for having tons of brutal nobz and meganobz.
Clan trait doesn't benefit meganobz and klaw nobz. Will only be used as a min detachment for Ghaz.
You can go on...
Yeah, but that's an issue across the entire 8th edition.
For example, my Death Guard's Inexorable Advance allows me to move and shoot heavy weapons, advance and shoot assault weapons and fire rapid fire at 18".
This results in Death Guard having some of the most mobile dreads and troops across all chaos marines. Add in the nurgle tree and the blightspawn and you have plague marines outrunning raptors.
GW (and many players) have yet to learn that rules become fluffy from how they play, not from how they are read in the book.
That said, I think the assault weapon add-on for Evil Suns kind of saves it for them. Bikes, nob bikers (should they stay around), koptas, battlewagons, chinorks and probably the new buggies are all loaded with assault weapons, so it's still a good trait to pick for an Evil Suns army - unlike Eldar, where Biel Tan isn't even the second best trait for their kind of army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hollow one wrote: I'm not sure how to read your winky face... but you'll put your shooty in a shooty detachment (KMK and HQ will go in Deffskulls spearhead for e.g.) and your green tide in a Evil Sunz detachment or whatever. I know there are a lot of people who want pure shooty lists up in here, and all one clan coz its fluffy, but yeah... I want to win so I'm going to mix.
I think we agree that deff skulls are probably going to be the best clan for any shooting unit that doesn't throw down tons of dice like lootas or flash gits.
Shooty support elements tend to be anti-tank weapons, which have few shots. So I guess a multi-klan Waaagh! would probably go for Evil Suns/Bloodaxe for the bulk of the army, deff skulls for fire support (and maybe grotznik?) and maybe Goff for Thrakka OR a mixed vanguard for Thrakka+three elite characters of your choice. I really see no reason to pick the freebootas clan trait unless most of your army belongs to that clan.
I want to see if freebootas is an actual clan, or if you just have a trait for a Badrukk+Flash Gits spearhead, similar to Cypher or Assassins.
Any thoughts whether the Waaagh! Banner will be changed? Exploding on 5s and 6s seems too good with how many swings boyz can get. It makes me wish they switched with Bad Moonz. Change it to 2 hits on unmodifed 6s means we could have a clan that could safely invest in alot of shooting and still get results against lots of -1 to hit armies.
...is the problem that it's actually too accurate to fluff?
Not really. The problem is, that if you use the leaked traits with the current index, then large blobs of Evil Sunz shoota-boyz suddenly becomes the meta. Then Evil Sunz is a shooty footslogging army, which was probably not the intention.
Then there is the supposedly sneaky camouflage army of Blood Axe. They get universal cover, which might seem fluffy. But when you play with such a rule, you end up ignoring the use of cover completely, because you get the benefit anyway. Suddenly Blood Axe units get no benefit from the cover placed on the table.
And it is not that we haven't seen this pattern before. Pretty much every IG Leman Russ battle tank is a catachan jungle warrior these days, simply because the catachan bonus is better for battle cannons than for actual flamers.
Hades wrote: Any thoughts whether the Waaagh! Banner will be changed? Exploding on 5s and 6s seems too good with how many swings boyz can get. It makes me wish they switched with Bad Moonz. Change it to 2 hits on unmodifed 6s means we could have a clan that could safely invest in alot of shooting and still get results against lots of -1 to hit armies.
"Too good"... don't be afraid of us actually getting something good for once. You also might want to give other codices with similar abilities a read, they can do way better than that.
Hades wrote: Any thoughts whether the Waaagh! Banner will be changed? Exploding on 5s and 6s seems too good with how many swings boyz can get. It makes me wish they switched with Bad Moonz. Change it to 2 hits on unmodifed 6s means we could have a clan that could safely invest in alot of shooting and still get results against lots of -1 to hit armies.
The banner was never worth its points in the index. It was always cheaper to have more boyz.
If it gets a big price drop and explodes 5s then it will finally be worth taking.
Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.
It really depends on what your goal in the game is. For a highly competitive gamer, stats are more important than paint. If you enforce the paint scheme, they would probably even adjust the colors, just to have the benefit. Nothing prevents them from picking the best clans for every unit.
For myself, I'll probably just run everything I have as bloodaxe, since that's how they are painted. That's exactly how other players in my group do it for their armies, even if their traits completely suck. Poor Imperial Fists.
You can't force your view of how the game should be played onto others. You can only chose to follow social contracts yourself.
Nuck Fewton wrote: Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.
Yes and I will use the clan rules that my Orks are actually painted as, which happens to be Evil Sunz.
I will also still take bikes, regardless of their viability and I will take as many of those new buggies as I can fit into a list, again, regardless of how well they actually perform on the table.
Anyone can take the most obviously powerful unit and make it work, it takes skill to take a unit that is sub-par and still get results out of it. I enjoy the challenge.
Nuck Fewton wrote: Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.
Yes and I will use the clan rules that my Orks are actually painted as, which happens to be Evil Sunz.
I will also still take bikes, regardless of their viability and I will take as many of those new buggies as I can fit into a list, again, regardless of how well they actually perform on the table.
Anyone can take the most obviously powerful unit and make it work, it takes skill to take a unit that is sub-par and still get results out of it. I enjoy the challenge.
*Swoon*
No but seriously, same. Getting the most out of a list that's decent somewhat strong but thematic rather than super strong/broken is really fun. I also hate it when my friends are like "well I really like terminators but they suck too bad to use". It has to suck when you're flipping through your own codex and you've effectively halved the amount of choices you have simply because it isn't top tier. I want to build and paint the models I find cool and obviously if I put in the time and effort to do that, I'm going to want to field them.
Nuck Fewton wrote: Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.
Yes and I will use the clan rules that my Orks are actually painted as, which happens to be Evil Sunz.
I will also still take bikes, regardless of their viability and I will take as many of those new buggies as I can fit into a list, again, regardless of how well they actually perform on the table.
Anyone can take the most obviously powerful unit and make it work, it takes skill to take a unit that is sub-par and still get results out of it. I enjoy the challenge.
*Swoon*
No but seriously, same. Getting the most out of a list that's decent somewhat strong but thematic rather than super strong/broken is really fun. I also hate it when my friends are like "well I really like terminators but they suck too bad to use". It has to suck when you're flipping through your own codex and you've effectively halved the amount of choices you have simply because it isn't top tier. I want to build and paint the models I find cool and obviously if I put in the time and effort to do that, I'm going to want to field them.
100%, luckily my main opponent is of the same mentality. There's also nothing better than beating a net list with something that is considered trash in the current meta.
Nuck Fewton wrote: Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.
A) mix of klans been part of orks since 2nd ed b) i have klan colours for most. Kmk is exception due to money. As is mek's and runtherds. Those will be all same klan so as to no "this kmk is dethskull while this identical kmk is bad moon"
And identical modeis/different rules and i refuse game
Simple clarity issue. If both players can't easily identify models it leads to arquments and mistakes. As a bare minimum different coloured base(consistently) is enough.
Nuck Fewton wrote: Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.
Yes and I will use the clan rules that my Orks are actually painted as, which happens to be Evil Sunz.
I will also still take bikes, regardless of their viability and I will take as many of those new buggies as I can fit into a list, again, regardless of how well they actually perform on the table.
Anyone can take the most obviously powerful unit and make it work, it takes skill to take a unit that is sub-par and still get results out of it. I enjoy the challenge.
*Swoon*
No but seriously, same. Getting the most out of a list that's decent somewhat strong but thematic rather than super strong/broken is really fun. I also hate it when my friends are like "well I really like terminators but they suck too bad to use". It has to suck when you're flipping through your own codex and you've effectively halved the amount of choices you have simply because it isn't top tier. I want to build and paint the models I find cool and obviously if I put in the time and effort to do that, I'm going to want to field them.
100%, luckily my main opponent is of the same mentality. There's also nothing better than beating a net list with something that is considered trash in the current meta.
Right because a person who has put hundreds of hours into painting their orks Bad Moonz because they enjoy the fluff should have to suffer because someone else picked their klan traits. If anyone has a problem with your colors they're not worth playing against.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heaven forbid they try to play a tournament and they like the klan with the god awful chapter tactic. They should just forget whatever they like and repaint their army to whatever GW decides is the most powerful chapter tactic at the time. After all they'd buy more paint that way.
Nuck Fewton wrote: Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.
Yes and I will use the clan rules that my Orks are actually painted as, which happens to be Evil Sunz.
I will also still take bikes, regardless of their viability and I will take as many of those new buggies as I can fit into a list, again, regardless of how well they actually perform on the table.
Anyone can take the most obviously powerful unit and make it work, it takes skill to take a unit that is sub-par and still get results out of it. I enjoy the challenge.
*Swoon*
No but seriously, same. Getting the most out of a list that's decent somewhat strong but thematic rather than super strong/broken is really fun. I also hate it when my friends are like "well I really like terminators but they suck too bad to use". It has to suck when you're flipping through your own codex and you've effectively halved the amount of choices you have simply because it isn't top tier. I want to build and paint the models I find cool and obviously if I put in the time and effort to do that, I'm going to want to field them.
100%, luckily my main opponent is of the same mentality. There's also nothing better than beating a net list with something that is considered trash in the current meta.
Right because a person who has put hundreds of hours into painting their orks Bad Moonz because they enjoy the fluff should have to suffer because someone else picked their klan traits. If anyone has a problem with your colors they're not worth playing against.
I 100% agree. I think it's silly to negatively judge someone for playing with rules that do not strictly line up with their color scheme. Like if I want to play Ultra tactics instead of Imperial fists I should go out and buy, assemble and paint a whole new army right? More chapter tactics offer more options to play with and ways to try new ideas and have more fun with the game. I don't understand the thought process that would condemn that as 'power gaming'. Like yeah I also measure distances, place units in a characters bubble and sit troops on objectives.
Hades wrote: Right because a person who has put hundreds of hours into painting their orks Bad Moonz because they enjoy the fluff should have to suffer because someone else picked their klan traits. If anyone has a problem with your colors they're not worth playing against.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heaven forbid they try to play a tournament and they like the klan with the god awful chapter tactic. They should just forget whatever they like and repaint their army to whatever GW decides is the most powerful chapter tactic at the time. After all they'd buy more paint that way.
Alright, I feel like me and An Actual Englishman are on the same page here but I don't want to speak for him. So here goes:
I'm not bemoaning you (or anyone else) for taking the strictly strongest combo there is. I'm sure there's plenty fun to be had in that. It's also, for all intents and purposes, necessary in a tournament setting. I'm with you here, not really my thing anymore but nothing against it. What I personally find to be frustrating is a lot of people who somehow refuse to ever try and tone down their lists to try and have a "fun" game every now and then to just try out some different combos or to use the units that have been gathering dust for over a year. That's often just met with a counter point of "well you should just switch out unit X for unit Y, it's so much better!". Obviously it's better but that's clearly not the point.
I mean I'd rather have someone using count-as with klan traits (as long as it's clearly defined) than people just buying and selling barely painted netlists on ebay. But I also feel like a lot of people are caught up in the zeitgeist of chasing netlists and that taking a step back from that might be.. pretty liberating...?
Edit: I just want to clarify. It seems like what you interpreted from my text was somehow meant to be restrictive. It's not, it's in fact the exact opposite. Don't be afraid to try a unit deemed mediocre by the people in the know. It might mesh well with your playstyle or just add an element of surprise. I mean the guy who won the BAO did, maybe that was luck? Maybe it wasn't
Hades wrote: Right because a person who has put hundreds of hours into painting their orks Bad Moonz because they enjoy the fluff should have to suffer because someone else picked their klan traits. If anyone has a problem with your colors they're not worth playing against.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heaven forbid they try to play a tournament and they like the klan with the god awful chapter tactic. They should just forget whatever they like and repaint their army to whatever GW decides is the most powerful chapter tactic at the time. After all they'd buy more paint that way.
Alright, I feel like me and An Actual Englishman are on the same page here but I don't want to speak for him. So here goes:
I'm not bemoaning you (or anyone else) for taking the strictly strongest combo there is. I'm sure there's plenty fun to be had in that. It's also, for all intents and purposes, necessary in a tournament setting. I'm with you here, not really my thing anymore but nothing against it. What I personally find to be frustrating is a lot of people who somehow refuse to ever try and tone down their lists to try and have a "fun" game every now and then to just try out some different combos or to use the units that have been gathering dust for over a year. That's often just met with a counter point of "well you should just switch out unit X for unit Y, it's so much better!". Obviously it's better but that's clearly not the point.
I mean I'd rather have someone using count-as with klan traits (as long as it's clearly defined) than people just buying and selling barely painted netlists on ebay. But I also feel like a lot of people are caught up in the zeitgeist of chasing netlists and that taking a step back from that might be.. pretty liberating...?
Edit: I just want to clarify. It seems like what you interpreted from my text was somehow meant to be restrictive. It's not, it's in fact the exact opposite. Don't be afraid to try a unit deemed mediocre by the people in the know. It might mesh well with your playstyle or just add an element of surprise. I mean the guy who won the BAO did, maybe that was luck? Maybe it wasn't
I'm starting to think pina colada and I are the same person.
Couldn't agree more. The point I think were trying to make is basically not to be scared of trying different things, regardless of how optimal, or not, it is deemed on here.
Someone can tell me my list is poor until they're blue in the face but it wouldn't make me change it. I have beaten lists I had no right to beat and I'm sure I'll do it again. I have literally been laughed at for taking war bikes this edition, both in real life and on here. But I love these models and their sentimental value far surpasses any gameplay value for me.
Take things that are considered poor in the meta if you like the models. Don't let someone else define your list.
Another tuesday, another rambling of a game for you to suffer through
With idea of a) using lots of grots I had been painting b) not wanting to just spam boyz I went for bit of unusual list I posted before that was:
Bat 1:
Warboss w/relic big choppa, 6+++
weirdboy w/da jump
2x30 boyz with big choppa, pk, 19 shootas in one, 29 in other
2x30 grots
10xgrots
runtherd
3xKMK
dakkajet 6xsupa shoota
Unsurprisingly I wasn't putting much stock on winning any game with casualties but would be aiming for objective game. I ended up playing by now very familiar space wolf player who's one of the more relaxed guys in terms of his army lists...Except this time he didn't bring his space wolves...Instead he had brought IG! I didn't even KNOW he has other armies than wolves! Seems I brought in gunline facing even better gunline...Whoops. I would have been more confident vs his space wolves, which albeit still are quite shooty type but not THIS shooty. By some freak luck he had army that was almost designed to blow up my army...So basically he had cadian armoured elements with tank commander in battle cannon I think, punisher, executioner, another battle cannon russ, wyvern, hydra, 2 hellhounds(not sure were these cadians). Also some catachan infantry. Sentinel with heavy flamer. Loooots of flamers around army. More of these later.
I knew right from the get-go a) my army WILL be blown to bits apart from some weird freak out dice rolling. Question would be just will I be blown to pieces or wiped out. If not wiped out I Can win on objectives as he's super stationary(and based on how he plays wolves I suspect he's not aggressive in movements this time either) and I have tons of chaff.
As I had forgotten chapter approved home we played simple scenario of 3 maelstrom cards per turn. We rolled 50-50 do we deploy short or wide edges and ended up again short edges. Not perfect vs gunlines but as I got to choose side I got 4/6 objectives within easy reach so not impossible. I even seized and started the game! Yey. My orks are going first much higher chance than knights(who are at 0/4 going first).
Turn 1: I rush forward. I had some movement troubles with grots and battlewagon(Stupid me keeping it toward last forgetting good position) with low advance rolls(I rolled not higher than 2 all turn...) but did get battlewagon off. 2 grot units just got bit tangled trying to clear the way. I forgot skorcha bomb but I would have needed to advance anyway so not sure would it have been worth it though would have been middle of his army in case I blow up...Magic I da jumped grots toward left hoping to charge leman russ. Shooting lootas and flashgits shot at hellhound causing quite a lot of damage. Then trio of KMK's fired total of 13 shots scoring whopping 6 hits for return of wound to 2. However I only got 2 wounds out of 6 hits. Grumble grumble. End result was hellhound with 1 wound left...I had also shot fliers already clearing some infantry(and forcing him to use CP to keep one squad on field having lost 7 guys). Mistake. They could have been used to finish off. Lesson learned. Forgot also to roll for flashgit if they shoot again and forgot to charge with grots...Well 9" would have been unlikely anyway with just CP reroll and no overwatch casualties at least. Main goal is to just threaten and block anyway.
He returns by...Moving only sentinel toward one objective in center. Then he fired away blowing up tons of grots(including whole da jumped mob), dakka jet, 1 KMK. Hefty casualties but I Was expecting some. Not this much but with 10 and 11 with hellhound hits being indicative of how he was rolling..I swear against total unknown I might have got suspicious of his rolling this game but I know him from before and have seen him roll abysmally bad with those dices so no worries about loaded dices. Just some freaky dice rolling! Anyway 1-1 on objectives so far.
Turn 2: I shuffle stuff up. Burna jet moves over squad and drops bomb killing 5. I had slight annoyance as I got secure objective 1 which was the one with sentinel on it. If I wanted any chance of getting it either a) I need to unload one infantry inside BW or b) move whole battlewagon. In the end I decided protection so moved whole BW within 3" of objective in case I can destroy it. KFF followed suit to protect it while still keeping KMK's inside. Much use thise would be...Magic I kept quiet. Last turn da jump had btw caused 3 wounds to weirdboy. Shooting. I fired both KMK's at the hellhound. 9 shots, 3 hits in total and 0 wounds. I even used command reroll AGAIN like last turn and AGAIN it failed. Stupid hellhound was still alive. That hellhound was starting to piss me off. I wanted to get rid of it though(2d6" autohits ain't nice) so I used flashgits to finish the bugger off. Then lootas opened up and 39 shots later sentinel was wreck hit on 6's or not! This turn I got all 3 cards 1 which was defend(that was in middle of my army so no way whatsoever he could prevent it. Nope. Not possible). Oh and one of the freakiest rolls I have seen was when 14 grots fired at that 1 wound hellhound and only 1 hit...What are the odds of missing 13 4+ hits out of 14 dice anyway?
He...Still moves squash do basically. Maybe hellhound on my left a bit. Shooting scythes through lots of stuff including battlewagon, both KMK and tons of lootas plus lost 4 flashgit to ride blowing up(figured I want D2 weapons around here). Did I mention that by now KFF had rolled like 2 dozen saves with only 2 saves? And those weren't really even needed as it was vs heavy bolter so 5+ anyway...Bloody hell. Against all hits with -2 or better battlewagons and KMK's had ALL failed on save rolls. Only at the end with lootas did I finally start to pass something...He blew out my burnabomber also but it didn't blow up.
Turn 3: I push stuff forward hoping to keep him occupied shooting my force up. I'm not feeling any remorse for my guys. I'm marching them up into certain death without any chance or even INTENTION of actually really killing anything! I was about to da jump bad moons(30 shootas) toward center for some charging against tanks maybe until I realized I had forgotten to move anything to take control of objective 3 on my DZ that was secure objective goal so had to go there instead. Shooting I was pretty much out of guns by now. Lootas and flashgit shot at russ with punisher cannon and using command CP vs loota hit he kept damage to 3 wounds. I was way ahead of objectives though.
He basically STILL was sitting at his DZ blowing up grots and bad moons(5 left) left and right(infantry started to advance at least and one russ shuffled to get LOS). But this time he had no real way to score. Advance? Get entire army out of DZ? Well it might not be tactically that bad idea(I was hoping for him to stay put...) but even on advance vacating it would take 2 turns. Then witch hunter(good luck getting my weirdboy behind tons of stuff and out of LOS by hill...) and secure objective that's behind that hill with no unit that could even theoretically reach no matter what weird advance charge whatever combo he might pull up.
I held bad moons in place by strategem.
Turn 4:
With pretty much no army left I started moving KMK crews around to block routes toward objectives. I had about 20 grot strong unit left and there was wyvern with infantry squad next with russ on other side of infantry squad. I had psychological warfare so I got idea. Move in, shoot at infantry, charge at infantry, pile into the 2 vehicles locking them to combat, kill maybe some guys in combat, cause failed morale. Yey. On my left the 5 bad moons moved front of russ ensuring it can't move past. One side ruin and going up and down wall too slow and on other side board edge with gap too narrow to fit past it and bad moons. So then grots shot at the infantry squad. He even used CP reroll to reroll save. Huh? Well I assumed he was wanting to make psychological warfare hard. I then charge. He rolls 2 dice. "Were those bolters shots?"(he had bolter on all sergeants). No that was lasguns...2 lasgun shots at rapid fire range? From like half a dozen guys? Why I got bad feeling...He picks up 3 dice. "What are those?" "Flamers". "Flamers?" "Yes. And oh here's heavy flamer" and with that I'm down like 15 grots. AAAAAAAH! There was 3 flamers and heavy flamer in that squad? What were they? Veterans? Crap...Now looking at the models sure enough there's loooots of flame there...
Whoops. Next time don't just rush in but verify what you are facing! Should have charged russ and tagged the other 2. No psychological warfare but no overwatch either. With runtherd killing 2 leaving 1(I btw even failed charge distance of 6" with CP reroll which I used before realizing what sort of overwatch I Was facing) I had just given up my wall on right flank(not that it really mattered in the end here).
He finally started moving up stuff advancing with several tanks but by now he was having hard time scoring objectives and cards weren't kind.
Turn 5 and last turn. I got kingslayer which...I actually COULD archieve. Due to advancing line slight gap had appeared on his rear. I could try to kill that. Not that I even really have anything to lose so da jump and dethskulls(19 shootas, nob, 10 choppas) went there. Alas due to table edge had to go wide line so russes made sure all could not shoot but 11 could. 3 wounds. DRAT! Charge failed. Got 5 and 1, rerolled 1, got 3. Elsewhere KMK crew just moved to block directions toward objectives. On his turn he got secure 3 which was the sole objective I could NOT block. He went there, didn't even bother shooting phase as it was formality then and we counted. I had 7 cards of which 1 was 2 point defend so 8. He had 5 cards and first blood for 6.
8-6 victory for orks! Albeit in the end with no army to speak off left
Also I had whopping 45 minutes left to pack and head to station which is personal record for me for these gaming nights. And got already game agreed with new face(for me) one day vs necron player. Any suggestions what to do vs necrons?
Agreed, in the end it really comes down to personal preference. Some people want to have fun by playing whatever models they think are cool and fun to use, and some people have fun by winning and optimizing their lists. They key is finding someone who feels the same way as you to play against.
Coh Magnussen wrote: Thanks tneva, love these reports! I also love all the grotz!!!
Hehe I love grots as well as should be evident I wouldn't go as far as say they are best unit in ork index but bloody useful anyway. There are jobs you don't NEED ork boy offensive capability and in terms of survivability...Well you get 2 grots for 1 boy and main difference in survivability is T. So:
S1: You get twice as many wounds vs grots as orks, per point identical thus. But no S1 weapon that I Really know of.
S2: 1/2 wounds vs 1/6. Okay here boyz are tougher than grots per points but...How many S2 weapons are out there?
S3: 2/3 wounds vs 1/3. Twice, identical survivability per points
S4: 5/6 vs 1/2. Now suddenly you get less than twice the wounds vs grots than boyz so grots actually soak up more firepower per points. All those bolters etc...
S5-S7: 5/6 vs 2/3. Advantage turns more and more in grot favour. Pulse rifles, heavy bolters, autocannons, helverins etc.
S8+: 5/6 vs 5/6. Now grots are half the price vs soaking up fire same.
Unless you face lots of S1-S2 you are MINIMUM identical in terms of points. Against S4+ you require more shots for X points to clear grots than boyz.
So they provide you cheap bodies meant to die for the greater waaagh. Also cheap way to control board. Damage output wise they aren't best but against T3 they are providing slightly more wounds than ork pistols. More if they are in numbers. This can be useful for clearing chaff, kill small units for "kill unit in shooty phase" maelstrom card or psychological warfare card where you need to cause casualties but not TOO many which makes ork h2h actually too effective...
Too bad runtherds are 0-3 max. Makes bit hard to have huge wall both practically fearless and rerolling 1's in h2h.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm starting to think pina colada and I are the same person.
-Snip-
We're not. I am in fact the Kirby looking squig in your profile picture, tormented by unearned sentience
tneva82 wrote:Another tuesday, another rambling of a game for you to suffer through
Spoiler:
With idea of a) using lots of grots I had been painting b) not wanting to just spam boyz I went for bit of unusual list I posted before that was:
Bat 1:
Warboss w/relic big choppa, 6+++
weirdboy w/da jump
2x30 boyz with big choppa, pk, 19 shootas in one, 29 in other
2x30 grots
10xgrots
runtherd
3xKMK
dakkajet 6xsupa shoota
Unsurprisingly I wasn't putting much stock on winning any game with casualties but would be aiming for objective game. I ended up playing by now very familiar space wolf player who's one of the more relaxed guys in terms of his army lists...Except this time he didn't bring his space wolves...Instead he had brought IG! I didn't even KNOW he has other armies than wolves! Seems I brought in gunline facing even better gunline...Whoops. I would have been more confident vs his space wolves, which albeit still are quite shooty type but not THIS shooty. By some freak luck he had army that was almost designed to blow up my army...So basically he had cadian armoured elements with tank commander in battle cannon I think, punisher, executioner, another battle cannon russ, wyvern, hydra, 2 hellhounds(not sure were these cadians). Also some catachan infantry. Sentinel with heavy flamer. Loooots of flamers around army. More of these later.
I knew right from the get-go a) my army WILL be blown to bits apart from some weird freak out dice rolling. Question would be just will I be blown to pieces or wiped out. If not wiped out I Can win on objectives as he's super stationary(and based on how he plays wolves I suspect he's not aggressive in movements this time either) and I have tons of chaff.
As I had forgotten chapter approved home we played simple scenario of 3 maelstrom cards per turn. We rolled 50-50 do we deploy short or wide edges and ended up again short edges. Not perfect vs gunlines but as I got to choose side I got 4/6 objectives within easy reach so not impossible. I even seized and started the game! Yey. My orks are going first much higher chance than knights(who are at 0/4 going first).
Turn 1: I rush forward. I had some movement troubles with grots and battlewagon(Stupid me keeping it toward last forgetting good position) with low advance rolls(I rolled not higher than 2 all turn...) but did get battlewagon off. 2 grot units just got bit tangled trying to clear the way. I forgot skorcha bomb but I would have needed to advance anyway so not sure would it have been worth it though would have been middle of his army in case I blow up...Magic I da jumped grots toward left hoping to charge leman russ. Shooting lootas and flashgits shot at hellhound causing quite a lot of damage. Then trio of KMK's fired total of 13 shots scoring whopping 6 hits for return of wound to 2. However I only got 2 wounds out of 6 hits. Grumble grumble. End result was hellhound with 1 wound left...I had also shot fliers already clearing some infantry(and forcing him to use CP to keep one squad on field having lost 7 guys). Mistake. They could have been used to finish off. Lesson learned. Forgot also to roll for flashgit if they shoot again and forgot to charge with grots...Well 9" would have been unlikely anyway with just CP reroll and no overwatch casualties at least. Main goal is to just threaten and block anyway.
He returns by...Moving only sentinel toward one objective in center. Then he fired away blowing up tons of grots(including whole da jumped mob), dakka jet, 1 KMK. Hefty casualties but I Was expecting some. Not this much but with 10 and 11 with hellhound hits being indicative of how he was rolling..I swear against total unknown I might have got suspicious of his rolling this game but I know him from before and have seen him roll abysmally bad with those dices so no worries about loaded dices. Just some freaky dice rolling! Anyway 1-1 on objectives so far.
Turn 2: I shuffle stuff up. Burna jet moves over squad and drops bomb killing 5. I had slight annoyance as I got secure objective 1 which was the one with sentinel on it. If I wanted any chance of getting it either a) I need to unload one infantry inside BW or b) move whole battlewagon. In the end I decided protection so moved whole BW within 3" of objective in case I can destroy it. KFF followed suit to protect it while still keeping KMK's inside. Much use thise would be...Magic I kept quiet. Last turn da jump had btw caused 3 wounds to weirdboy. Shooting. I fired both KMK's at the hellhound. 9 shots, 3 hits in total and 0 wounds. I even used command reroll AGAIN like last turn and AGAIN it failed. Stupid hellhound was still alive. That hellhound was starting to piss me off. I wanted to get rid of it though(2d6" autohits ain't nice) so I used flashgits to finish the bugger off. Then lootas opened up and 39 shots later sentinel was wreck hit on 6's or not! This turn I got all 3 cards 1 which was defend(that was in middle of my army so no way whatsoever he could prevent it. Nope. Not possible). Oh and one of the freakiest rolls I have seen was when 14 grots fired at that 1 wound hellhound and only 1 hit...What are the odds of missing 13 4+ hits out of 14 dice anyway?
He...Still moves squash do basically. Maybe hellhound on my left a bit. Shooting scythes through lots of stuff including battlewagon, both KMK and tons of lootas plus lost 4 flashgit to ride blowing up(figured I want D2 weapons around here). Did I mention that by now KFF had rolled like 2 dozen saves with only 2 saves? And those weren't really even needed as it was vs heavy bolter so 5+ anyway...Bloody hell. Against all hits with -2 or better battlewagons and KMK's had ALL failed on save rolls. Only at the end with lootas did I finally start to pass something...He blew out my burnabomber also but it didn't blow up.
Turn 3: I push stuff forward hoping to keep him occupied shooting my force up. I'm not feeling any remorse for my guys. I'm marching them up into certain death without any chance or even INTENTION of actually really killing anything! I was about to da jump bad moons(30 shootas) toward center for some charging against tanks maybe until I realized I had forgotten to move anything to take control of objective 3 on my DZ that was secure objective goal so had to go there instead. Shooting I was pretty much out of guns by now. Lootas and flashgit shot at russ with punisher cannon and using command CP vs loota hit he kept damage to 3 wounds. I was way ahead of objectives though.
He basically STILL was sitting at his DZ blowing up grots and bad moons(5 left) left and right(infantry started to advance at least and one russ shuffled to get LOS). But this time he had no real way to score. Advance? Get entire army out of DZ? Well it might not be tactically that bad idea(I was hoping for him to stay put...) but even on advance vacating it would take 2 turns. Then witch hunter(good luck getting my weirdboy behind tons of stuff and out of LOS by hill...) and secure objective that's behind that hill with no unit that could even theoretically reach no matter what weird advance charge whatever combo he might pull up.
I held bad moons in place by strategem.
Turn 4:
With pretty much no army left I started moving KMK crews around to block routes toward objectives. I had about 20 grot strong unit left and there was wyvern with infantry squad next with russ on other side of infantry squad. I had psychological warfare so I got idea. Move in, shoot at infantry, charge at infantry, pile into the 2 vehicles locking them to combat, kill maybe some guys in combat, cause failed morale. Yey. On my left the 5 bad moons moved front of russ ensuring it can't move past. One side ruin and going up and down wall too slow and on other side board edge with gap too narrow to fit past it and bad moons. So then grots shot at the infantry squad. He even used CP reroll to reroll save. Huh? Well I assumed he was wanting to make psychological warfare hard. I then charge. He rolls 2 dice. "Were those bolters shots?"(he had bolter on all sergeants). No that was lasguns...2 lasgun shots at rapid fire range? From like half a dozen guys? Why I got bad feeling...He picks up 3 dice. "What are those?" "Flamers". "Flamers?" "Yes. And oh here's heavy flamer" and with that I'm down like 15 grots. AAAAAAAH! There was 3 flamers and heavy flamer in that squad? What were they? Veterans? Crap...Now looking at the models sure enough there's loooots of flame there...
Whoops. Next time don't just rush in but verify what you are facing! Should have charged russ and tagged the other 2. No psychological warfare but no overwatch either. With runtherd killing 2 leaving 1(I btw even failed charge distance of 6" with CP reroll which I used before realizing what sort of overwatch I Was facing) I had just given up my wall on right flank(not that it really mattered in the end here).
He finally started moving up stuff advancing with several tanks but by now he was having hard time scoring objectives and cards weren't kind.
Turn 5 and last turn. I got kingslayer which...I actually COULD archieve. Due to advancing line slight gap had appeared on his rear. I could try to kill that. Not that I even really have anything to lose so da jump and dethskulls(19 shootas, nob, 10 choppas) went there. Alas due to table edge had to go wide line so russes made sure all could not shoot but 11 could. 3 wounds. DRAT! Charge failed. Got 5 and 1, rerolled 1, got 3. Elsewhere KMK crew just moved to block directions toward objectives. On his turn he got secure 3 which was the sole objective I could NOT block. He went there, didn't even bother shooting phase as it was formality then and we counted. I had 7 cards of which 1 was 2 point defend so 8. He had 5 cards and first blood for 6.
8-6 victory for orks! Albeit in the end with no army to speak off left
Also I had whopping 45 minutes left to pack and head to station which is personal record for me for these gaming nights. And got already game agreed with new face(for me) one day vs necron player. Any suggestions what to do vs necrons?
That was a fun battlereport to read. Keep fighting the green fight Tneva!
So if rumors of no codex warboss on bike is true.
I expect zhardsnark from FW to be even more popular.
The fact he’s evil sun just makes him even better at what he does (which is first turn charge mortal wound power klaw beatdowns). With 17move, 7 advance, 2d6+1 charge rerolling 1 die.
I realize you can still use the index however the index is not updated with and new stat changes or point reductions that occur in the codex.
Too bad runtherds are 0-3 max. Makes bit hard to have huge wall both practically fearless and rerolling 1's in h2h.
Warbosses can help out with that. The Breakin' Head ability functions just like a Runtherd with Squig Hound when it comes to morale. This is why I often use Grots as screens for Warbosses.
gungo wrote: So if rumors of no codex warboss on bike is true.
I expect zhardsnark from FW to be even more popular.
The fact he’s evil sun just makes him even better at what he does (which is first turn charge mortal wound power klaw beatdowns). With 17move, 7 advance, 2d6+1 charge rerolling 1 die.
I realize you can still use the index however the index is not updated with and new stat changes or point reductions that occur in the codex.
Unfortunately Zhadsnark cannot advance and charge (as stupid as that is) as he is currently written. I thought his move was 15" too so he'll go to 16" with Evil Sunz strat.
Billagio wrote: Agreed, in the end it really comes down to personal preference. Some people want to have fun by playing whatever models they think are cool and fun to use, and some people have fun by winning and optimizing their lists. They key is finding someone who feels the same way as you to play against.
At the same time, realistically it should be balanced to where any unit choice has a chance of a victory. This isn't the case however. I have players I play with who take substandard units, which is great, but then get really upset and frustrated when that unit fails to perform or gets killed even though it isn't super competitive. Kind of hard to consider that aspect. You want to win fine. You want to play your units fine. You want to play whatever units and still win....uhhhh goodluck? maybe depending on who you're playing.
gungo wrote: So if rumors of no codex warboss on bike is true.
I expect zhardsnark from FW to be even more popular.
The fact he’s evil sun just makes him even better at what he does (which is first turn charge mortal wound power klaw beatdowns). With 17move, 7 advance, 2d6+1 charge rerolling 1 die.
I realize you can still use the index however the index is not updated with and new stat changes or point reductions that occur in the codex.
Unfortunately Zhadsnark cannot advance and charge (as stupid as that is) as he is currently written. I thought his move was 15" too so he'll go to 16" with Evil Sunz strat.
I thought they FAQ'd this to allow Warboss on Bikes to advance and charge with Waagh.
gungo wrote: So if rumors of no codex warboss on bike is true.
I expect zhardsnark from FW to be even more popular.
The fact he’s evil sun just makes him even better at what he does (which is first turn charge mortal wound power klaw beatdowns). With 17move, 7 advance, 2d6+1 charge rerolling 1 die.
I realize you can still use the index however the index is not updated with and new stat changes or point reductions that occur in the codex.
Unfortunately Zhadsnark cannot advance and charge (as stupid as that is) as he is currently written. I thought his move was 15" too so he'll go to 16" with Evil Sunz strat.
I thought they FAQ'd this to allow Warboss on Bikes to advance and charge with Waagh.
They did. They forgot the most pimping Warboss on Bike old Zhadsnark though so he (bizarrely) can't!
-1 is still a massive penalty to our shooting; we lose 50% of already average shooting; and it being on unmodified sixes means it can't be used in cool combos, like with 20+ Grot squads.
That said, a buff is a buff, and I'll take what we can get.
-1 is still a massive penalty to our shooting; we lose 50% of already average shooting; and it being on unmodified sixes means it can't be used in cool combos, like with 20+ Grot squads.
That said, a buff is a buff, and I'll take what we can get.
Yes, but -2 to hit makes us the same as a lot of other armies. And -3 to hit means we hit infinitely more often than the TAU. The mere thought of that makes this boy very happy.
Combined with the stratagem for flyer hunting, I think most offenders with -2 to hit are at least killable now, assuming we get shooting units worth their points.
Well, I love all the model releases. That warboss is amazing alongside his crew of boyz. I wonder if the grappling hook has powerklaw stats, I also wonder if anything's swappable on him..
Regarding dakkadakkadakka, it's on unmodified hit rolls of 6, which I insisted it would be. But realistically this isn't going to be enough without a major buff to our guns. If you're not facing a force with an army wide -1 to hit modifier it might actually be pretty sweet. Especially if you're playing Evl Sunz, advance everything and still hit on 5's, also for every 6 you roll you get more shots that hit on 5's. That sounds pretty good.
Problem is, as soon as you're facing -1 this is just going to translate into an absurd amount of dice thrown for very little impact. Now sure what the solution to that is now that we know how dakkadakkadakka is phrased. (Well, in reality it's just to retroactively remove -1 to hit army traits, but not sure if they're willing to do that.
Overall though I'm real happy. We're getting fantastic models and (perhaps hyperbolic) statements of a great codex.
PiñaColada wrote: Well, I love all the model releases. That warboss is amazing alongside his crew of boyz. I wonder if the grappling hook has powerklaw stats, I also wonder if anything's swappable on him..
Regarding dakkadakkadakka, it's on unmodified hit rolls of 6, which I insisted it would be. But realistically this isn't going to be enough without a major buff to our guns. If you're not facing a force with an army wide -1 to hit modifier it might actually be pretty sweet. Especially if you're playing Evl Sunz, advance everything and still hit on 5's, also for every 6 you roll you get more shots that hit on 5's. That sounds pretty good.
Problem is, as soon as you're facing -1 this is just going to translate into an absurd amount of dice thrown for very little impact. Now sure what the solution to that is now that we know how dakkadakkadakka is phrased. (Well, in reality it's just to retroactively remove -1 to hit army traits, but not sure if they're willing to do that.
Overall though I'm real happy. We're getting fantastic models and (perhaps hyperbolic) statements of a great codex.
Well we'll see. If they up the number of shots good weapons fire(either by upping shot count or upping # of guns in army) it can cause useful damage. I'm not looking at needing army to blow enemy up in shooting but blowing up occasional hellhound etc would be nice. Almost did that on tuesday already(despite 2 units suffering -1 due to having to move to range with flashgits) and was only ruined by 3 3+ wound rolls failing. Cheaper and bit more efficient and it would have been decent.
Wouldn't buy their statement about great codex. They hype every codex as "best X codex eva!". What should they say? "Sorry but this time you'll get average codex"
My biggest fear effort goes mostly to speed freak stuff. Lootas, flash gits, walkers all need. Deep strike+3d6" charge for vehicles could help killa kan squadron or gorkanaut but only once. Token ONE unit to combo with that strategem isn't fixing core issues of ork walkers so hopefully something that encourages armies of ork walkers(I wanna run walker mob!). Oh and stompa?
Going to be looooooong september waiting for the codex.
Dakka dakka rule is basically a 15% damage increase. That's not amazing but not bad for a free buff. The always hit on 6 and counting only unmodified rolls part indicates that gw does listen to players occasionally.
I think another big part of dakkadakka is the increased mobility for shooting.
You can now advance assault/move heavy weps without any consequences for shooting if the target is at least -1 to hit. (Excluding weapons with Grot gunners/Flash Gitz ofc)
An imperium tank popped smoke? Might as well advance the Tankbustas then, no downside to it.
An Eldar Hemlock with his ridiculous -3 to hit flying by? My Loota’s dont care, hell I’ll even move them to get to a better position.
I am disappointed it's not always hit on unmodified 4's and exploding 6's cause automatic two hits instead of rolling for new hits. This rule is absurd and a waste of my time.
I believe that the "always hit on a 6" should be a universal rule or even better that you cannot stack "-1 to hit" abilities. They mentioned the Chapter Approved; maybe at least the first part is included there.
koooaei wrote: Dakka dakka rule is basically a 15% damage increase. That's not amazing but not bad for a free buff. The always hit on 6 and counting only unmodified rolls part indicates that gw does listen to players occasionally.
You get to get bonus hits on 6s which means you get 1/6 more shots with a 1/3rd chance to hit, that is a 5% increase in hits not 15%.
gungo wrote: Dakka Dakka Dakka is a army wide rule the not only give exploding 6s but you always hit in 6 regardless of modifier!!!!
That is huge!
It's really not. We've had Dakka Dakka Dakka for months and the only thing it's useful on is Tankbustas thanks to their innate rerolls against vehicles. On everything else it's pretty pointless. a 30 strong shoota boy squad gets an extra 3 hits from it. Sure it's a buff, but only if (and this is a big if) GW haven't upped the costs of shooting units because we got this. If that happens, then frankly it's nothing but a gigantic nerf, because you could hand this rule out for free right now to everything in our army and shooting units would still be hot garbage.
As to always hitting on 6's, this merely confirms my fears that the codex is going to be rubbish. If ANY modifiers come into play, Ork shooting becomes pointless. -1 to hit is a 50% reduction in our shooting. Always hitting on 6's does virtually nothing; so what if we can now hit an Eldar flyer, it's still not worth trying to hit the thing in the first place because relying on 6's is a fool's game given that our weight of firepower just isn't high enough to make a difference. GW could have fixed our shooting by making us ignore all modifiers, positive or negative, but instead they went with something that cannot, and will not, fix Ork shooting. And the fact that they think it WILL help simply shows that they don't get the problem.
koooaei wrote: Dakka dakka rule is basically a 15% damage increase. That's not amazing but not bad for a free buff. The always hit on 6 and counting only unmodified rolls part indicates that gw does listen to players occasionally.
You get to get bonus hits on 6s which means you get 1/6 more shots with a 1/3rd chance to hit, that is a 5% increase in hits not 15%.
60 shots. Before 20, now 23.3333 hits. That's 16.66666% more hits. 23.3333333333/20.
wow... for 200 pages now i wouldnt listen to people, when they said this thread is full of negativity... now we got the always hit on 6's AND exploding hits... AND its a general rule... and STILL people are complaining... wow... just wow...
deepstrike strategem, strat for 3d6 charge for vehicles PLUS mortal wounds, warboss on trike, always hit on 6's, 3+ to charge rolls... this looks really good... not gamebreakingly OP but good.
RedNoak wrote: wow... for 200 pages now i wouldnt listen to people, when they said this thread is full of negativity... now we got the always hit on 6's AND exploding hits... AND its a general rule... and STILL people are complaining... wow... just wow...
deepstrike strategem, strat for 3d6 charge for vehicles PLUS mortal wounds, warboss on trike, always hit on 6's, 3+ to charge rolls... this looks really good... not gamebreakingly OP but good.
and all i hear is mimimimimimimi
I hear you mate. Saddest thing is that it's the biggest discussion location Orks have. Maybe that's part of the problem.
hollow one wrote: I am disappointed it's not always hit on unmodified 4's and exploding 6's cause automatic two hits instead of rolling for new hits. This rule is absurd and a waste of my time.
AMEN brother^^
also the rumoured strat to pile in and fight again? i am really starting to believe they put some thoughts into the new dex
i will be missing the characters on bikes though... (STUPID GW POLICY) well at least we got the warbosstrike
I agree. Army-wide DakkaDakkaDakka is indeed something really nice, we also know that it does work for mek guns (KMK!) and probably kanz, who benefit from the exploding sixes quite well. Same for dakkajet and getchin, even if you don't get a higher chance to explode, we still have higher chance to hit the additional hits.
Hitting sixes really isn't anything to write home about, but now at least you can empty into an allaitoc flyer or some pathfinders and hope to plonk off some wounds rather than skipping shooting because nothing can hit anything.
hollow one wrote: I am disappointed it's not always hit on unmodified 4's and exploding 6's cause automatic two hits instead of rolling for new hits. This rule is absurd and a waste of my time.
AMEN brother^^
also the rumoured strat to pile in and fight again? i am really starting to believe they put some thoughts into the new dex
i will be missing the characters on bikes though... (STUPID GW POLICY) well at least we got the warbosstrike
It's not even a policy, it's bulls*it.
Tell me how to build Space Wolf Swiftclaws without kitbashing? If you can build Swiftclaws, you can build characters on bikes. Yet bike characters or even bike Wolfguard are no longer a codex option... (Sorry for OT)
Jidmah wrote: I agree. Army-wide DakkaDakkaDakka is indeed something really nice, we also know that it does work for mek guns (KMK!) and probably kanz, who benefit from the exploding sixes quite well. Same for dakkajet and getchin, even if you don't get a higher chance to explode, we still have higher chance to hit the additional hits.
Hitting sixes really isn't anything to write home about, but now at least you can empty into an allaitoc flyer or some pathfinders and hope to plonk off some wounds rather than skipping shooting because nothing can hit anything.
It's great for tankbustas since that's the unit I always threw dakkadakkadakka on anyways. Any extra rokkit hit could be a game changer and with rerolls the odds are okay-ish at getting more hits. Not spending that CP (and gtting the bonus on the rest of the army as well) means more mileage out of the other strats, which seem to have a nice blend of fluffy and strong from what we've seen.
One thing is for certain, it's going to be a lot more fun playing orks post codex compared to 8th up until now
seems u'll need an mek degree to figure out your chances of hitting somethin^^
EDIT: fixed the numbers... ~45% to hit with badmoons
well, thats basically 4+ for you guys
Spoiler:
Yep, that's exactly how it works. There are some formulas that allow you to calculate this without needing to draw that tree, but the tree is was almost all statistics are based on.
"Eldar make Orkz impossible to shoot, this need to be fixed Orkz can't do anything about it!!"
GW fixes it AND increases Ork firepower in a cost free army wide upgrade
"it doesn't even make a difference it's a pointless rule"
You guys are embarrassingly bad at the game. Already whining about the army after seeing a single rule, and that does exactly what you was one of the main changes. I came in here expecting happiness, it feels like some of you NEED this army to be perceived as bad so you have an option-select for when you play and lose.
And you are generalizing. There are quite few people happy about it, me included. I'll take my tank bustas hitting hemlocks on 6 with a re-roll over "can't touch this" any day.
It's also not like every other army's players have not started complaining after the tiniest hint of rules for their codex. This is just dakka being dakka.
Jidmah wrote: And you are generalizing. There are quite few people happy about it, me included. I'll take my tank bustas hitting hemlocks on 6 with a re-roll over "can't touch this" any day.
I'm not generalising, if it doesn't apply to you then it's not aimed at you. Plenty of rational people happily hyped for Orktober, I'm only talking to the people who are whining already.
Edited by RiTides - Rule #1 on Dakka is "Be Polite"
Weazel wrote: I'm happy about dakkadakkadakka. And I also agree that judging a codex based on one GW confirmed rule is just absolutely appalling.
Hah. I remember having multiple discussions in the beginning of 8th over how GW has nerfed ork boyz to absolute uselessness because they no longer get an attack on the charge
From what we've read so far, I think this codex will be a BLAST to play with. I don't care if it's not competitive, cause so far it looks incredibly fun.
Dakkadakkadakka for example, is not something that you must look from a statistical point of view. Ok, it's 16,67% more damage in the long run. But in a few cases, it's going to be 33, 50 or maybe 100% more damage, and people will only remember these times, not the other 20 times where you hit nothing. My friends still tell me about that time when I shot down a Valkyrie with the gun of an Aegis Defense Line manned by a Grot. 4 shots, 4 hits, 4 damage, 3 failed Jinx saves. The thing didn't even get a chance to shoot. It never happened again, but it was one of the funniest moment in my wargamer's carrier.
Btw, they said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. Biker HQ confirmed?
Weazel wrote: Btw, they said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. Biker HQ confirmed?
Huh, good point! I find it weird they wouldn't have put him into the picture showing off the game but I guess people aren't going to complain about getting more stuff
Weazel wrote: Btw, they said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. Biker HQ confirmed?
Huh, good point! I find it weird they wouldn't have put him into the picture showing off the game but I guess people aren't going to complain about getting more stuff
That hq is the trike thev show literally next...idea being you buy it, instant outrider detachment(though i suspect most will use battallion due to cp unless ork strategems generally suck)
Weazel wrote: Btw, they said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. Biker HQ confirmed?
They didn't say this. They said the contents of the box are almost an outrider detachment, if you want to make it an outrider detachment just add this sick boss that we're going to show you next, yo. The boss (on Wartrike) is not in the Speed Freeks box.
This might not be the right spot, but a question about WYSIWYG and ork klans -- is a particular paint scheme mandated for each Klan? I'm just getting started, but my ork army isn't going to be painted in any of the canon colors (the army's scheme is purple with white/yellow accents, but the boyz for instance are all in orange prison clothes). Am I stuck with freebootaz in a WYSIWYG tournament?
Nora wrote: Which weekend will they release the codex do you believe? Will we have pre-orders already in September?
Only things we know october and speed freek game first. Thus earliest preorder would be 6th if speed freek comes preorder september. Seems odds are i can#t take codex to tournament in october
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Coh Magnussen wrote: This might not be the right spot, but a question about WYSIWYG and ork klans -- is a particular paint scheme mandated for each Klan? I'm just getting started, but my ork army isn't going to be painted in any of the canon colors (the army's scheme is purple with white/yellow accents, but the boyz for instance are all in orange prison clothes). Am I stuck with freebootaz in a WYSIWYG tournament?
No. You can paint as you wish though please if you mix klans make some visual cue like edge of bases to separate klans easily
Nora wrote: Which weekend will they release the codex do you believe? Will we have pre-orders already in September?
Only things we know october and speed freek game first. Thus earliest preorder would be 6th if speed freek comes preorder september. Seems odds are i can#t take codex to tournament in october
Source? I don't remember reading anywhere that Speed Freeks will come before the codex?
Coh Magnussen wrote: This might not be the right spot, but a question about WYSIWYG and ork klans -- is a particular paint scheme mandated for each Klan? I'm just getting started, but my ork army isn't going to be painted in any of the canon colors (the army's scheme is purple with white/yellow accents, but the boyz for instance are all in orange prison clothes). Am I stuck with freebootaz in a WYSIWYG tournament?
Nora wrote: Which weekend will they release the codex do you believe? Will we have pre-orders already in September?
Only things we know october and speed freek game first. Thus earliest preorder would be 6th if speed freek comes preorder september. Seems odds are i can#t take codex to tournament in october
Source? I don't remember reading anywhere that Speed Freeks will come before the codex?
Coh Magnussen wrote: This might not be the right spot, but a question about WYSIWYG and ork klans -- is a particular paint scheme mandated for each Klan? I'm just getting started, but my ork army isn't going to be painted in any of the canon colors (the army's scheme is purple with white/yellow accents, but the boyz for instance are all in orange prison clothes). Am I stuck with freebootaz in a WYSIWYG tournament?
is WYSIWYG even a thing anymore?
Technically not even requirement to have any real models. RAW you could use the cheap army men or even rocks for models.
But chapter trait/colour scheme has never been WYSIWYG. Now I think GW tried it in the level if you have blood angel colour scheme they must use blood angels but even they didn't prevent using blood angels with custom paint job.
Codex orks next
Orktober
Before orks (codex?) speed freaks
Ah Spikeybits.
I don't think RB was at the event so I'd take the vague phrase "Before orks (codex?) speed freaks" with a big lump of salt. Something could've got lost in translation or misheard.
This is interesting; "Timeline – show stuff a month before it comes out. If you haven’t seen it (model, book, etc) then it’s more than a month away."
Well we saw previews of Speed Freeks about a week or 2 ago? So pre-orders up the Monday 24th for release 1st Oct?
When Lootas roll 3 shots each they have a 50% chance of rolling the six they need to shoot one more time.
Anything rolling with an Assault/Heavy 3 weapon gets a 50% chance of rolling another shot.
Tankbustas vs. vehicles -> 1 Rokkit/3(chance to hit) = 33% chance to hit + 22% chance to hit with a reroll = 55% Hit chance. Half those are 6's. So .27 more rokkitz that also get to reroll misses leading to another 15.27% chance of a hit. I think this means each tankbuster has almost a 71% chance to actually hit a vehicle.
When Lootas roll 3 shots each they have a 50% chance of rolling the six they need to shoot one more time.
Anything rolling with an Assault/Heavy 3 weapon gets a 50% chance of rolling another shot.
Tankbustas vs. vehicles -> 1 Rokkit/3(chance to hit) = 33% chance to hit + 22% chance to hit with a reroll = 55% Hit chance. Half those are 6's. So .27 more rokkitz that also get to reroll misses leading to another 15.27% chance of a hit. I think this means each tankbuster has almost a 71% chance to actually hit a vehicle.
When Lootas roll 3 shots each they have a 50% chance of rolling the six they need to shoot one more time.
Anything rolling with an Assault/Heavy 3 weapon gets a 50% chance of rolling another shot.
Tankbustas vs. vehicles -> 1 Rokkit/3(chance to hit) = 33% chance to hit + 22% chance to hit with a reroll = 55% Hit chance. Half those are 6's. So .27 more rokkitz that also get to reroll misses leading to another 15.27% chance of a hit. I think this means each tankbuster has almost a 71% chance to actually hit a vehicle.
Whats the math for Bad moons Lootas with DDD?
Complicated lol
18 shots would give three 1's, so three rerolls, likely one of those should hit, and it has a 50% chance of being a six.
So, the Bad Moons clan trait yields a 6 to hit for DDD at 36 shots.
Small footnote: DDD works on overwatch as well so hey we might even get an extra hit out of it there as well which could be nice.
I don't think DDD is a super amazing rule, but it's nice to have. We've all had those games where just one more shot could have made the difference. On paper it's not going to shatter the meta, but there will be those moments where it really does shine and strip that last wound of something important or just barely manage to shoot them off of an objective.
Also: I sure do hope tankbustas get their tank hunting extended to monsters as well.
normal orks DDD extra hits = 5,5%
BadMoon orks DDD extra hits = 7,5%
I keep seeing "it's 16.7% extra hits"... "No, it's only ~5.5% extra hits".
If you would have hit 100 times without DDD, you will hit approximately 116.7 times with DDD. That surely looks like a 16.7% increase in hits to me.
If you SHOOT 100 times, DDD will generate ~16.7 extra attacks. That's 16.7% more attacks, which should on average yield 16.7% more hits than without DDD.
Yes, with BS5+ the number of extra hits is ~5.5% of the number of *shots*, but that's comparing apples and oranges (or shots and hits in this case).
IMHO to keep quoting 5.5% is misleading. Yes, 16.7% more than 6 wounds is a whopping 1 extra wound, but 1 extra wound in 6 is way better than the 1 extra wound in 18 that 5.5% implies.
That's why everyone is talking about 5% extra hits. Additionally, it's more meaningful to discuss the extra hits (instead of shots), as that is one step closer to the outcome, and it accounts for ballistic skill.
Finally, you can not discuss the % increase in wounds without knowing the toughness and save of the target, which is why no one is discussing % increase in wounds like in your example.
So I did some quick mathhammer on the attack to hit conversion rate with DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA , I did it for BS3+-BS6+, covering re-rolls of ones and re-rolling failures. This chart doesn't cover units with Ammo Runts, they generate finite re-rolls so you have to consider the probability of using that re-roll. I had a python script I was working on to deal with it but never got around to finishing, so the imminent codex might be motivation.
The order of the values is, unmodified, with DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA , and with re-rolls of 1(badrukk aura, rumoured badmoonz) or with re-rolls of all failures (tankbustas).
BS3: 0.667, 0.778, 0.907, 1.037
BS4: 0.500, 0.583, 0.681, 0.875
BS5: 0.333, 0.389, 0.454, 0.648
BS6: 0.167, 0.194, 0.227, 0.356
To clarify that result with an attack to hit conversion rate greater then 1 checks out, as you would expect everything to have to have an attacks characteristic of 7/6.
Also I'm seeing people talk about whether it's a 1/6 increase or a 1/18 increase, you need to be careful with what you're talking about because both statements can potentially be correct. DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA gives a flat 1/6 increase to your output, that is your attacks output is scaled by 7/6. If you have BS5+ your attacks to hit conversion rate will have an additional (1/6)*(1/3)= 1/18 output, that is your hit rate of 1/3 is now 1/3+1/18=7/18. Alternatively, your attack to hit conversion rate before is 1/3, and DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA will scale it by 7/6, so you get 7/18. They're the same result, just the way people talk about the change in the results is different.
That's why everyone is talking about 5% extra hits. Additionally, it's more meaningful to discuss the extra hits (instead of shots), as that is one step closer to the outcome, and it accounts for ballistic skill.
Finally, you can not discuss the % increase in wounds without knowing the toughness and save of the target, which is why no one is discussing % increase in wounds like in your example.
Can we agree that 100 shots @ BS 5+ yields ~33.3 hits? Can we also agree that with DDD, 16.7 of those shots will be 6 resulting in additional attacks?
How about that 116.7 shots at BS 5+ yields ~38.9 hits?
If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that 33.3 * 1.167 = ~38.9?
16% more shots than you had before yields 16% more hits than you had before.
And as far as wounds, lets suppose you're wounding on 4+. 33.3 hits wounding on 4+ yields ~16.7 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 4+ yields ~19.5 wounds. 16.7 * 1.167 = ~19.5. 16.7% more wounds with DDD than without DDD.
Suppose it's a tough target and you're wounding on 6+. 33.3 hits wounding on 6+ yields ~5.5 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 6+ yields ~6.5 wounds. Again a 16.7% increase (rounding error becomes significant here, but if you carry the precision further that goes away)
Suppose it's a goofy grot or something and your'e wounding on 2+. 33.3 hits wounding on 2+ yields 27.75 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 2+ yields yields 32.4 wounds. 27.75 * 1.167 = ~32.4.
So no matter whether you're talking attacks, hits, or wounds -- it's a straight 16.67% increase in all of them. 16.67% more attacks than you had without DDD, yielding 16.67% more hits than you had without DDD, yielding 16.67% more wounds than you had without DDD.
I'm no warhammer expert so I can't tell you what effect that will have on the outcome of a game, and if a 17% increase in firepower is insignificant I'll take your word for it -- but imho the math is clear that it IS an almost 17% increase in firepower (regardless of whether you measure in attacks, hits, or wounds) and not 5%.
That's why everyone is talking about 5% extra hits. Additionally, it's more meaningful to discuss the extra hits (instead of shots), as that is one step closer to the outcome, and it accounts for ballistic skill.
Finally, you can not discuss the % increase in wounds without knowing the toughness and save of the target, which is why no one is discussing % increase in wounds like in your example.
Can we agree that 100 shots @ BS 5+ yields ~33.3 hits? Can we also agree that with DDD, 16.7 of those shots will be 6 resulting in additional attacks?
How about that 116.7 shots at BS 5+ yields ~38.9 hits?
If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that 33.3 * 1.167 = ~38.9?
16% more shots than you had before yields 16% more hits than you had before.
And as far as wounds, lets suppose you're wounding on 4+. 33.3 hits wounding on 4+ yields ~16.7 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 4+ yields ~19.5 wounds. 16.7 * 1.167 = ~19.5. 16.7% more wounds with DDD than without DDD.
Suppose it's a tough target and you're wounding on 6+. 33.3 hits wounding on 6+ yields ~5.5 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 6+ yields ~6.5 wounds. Again a 16.7% increase (rounding error becomes significant here, but if you carry the precision further that goes away)
Suppose it's a goofy grot or something and your'e wounding on 2+. 33.3 hits wounding on 2+ yields 27.75 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 2+ yields yields 32.4 wounds. 27.75 * 1.167 = ~32.4.
So no matter whether you're talking attacks, hits, or wounds -- it's a straight 16.67% increase in all of them. 16.67% more attacks than you had without DDD, yielding 16.67% more hits than you had without DDD, yielding 16.67% more wounds than you had without DDD.
I'm no warhammer expert so I can't tell you what effect that will have on the outcome of a game, and if a 17% increase in firepower is insignificant I'll take your word for it -- but imho the math is clear that it IS an almost 17% increase in firepower (regardless of whether you measure in attacks, hits, or wounds) and not 5%.
I agree on your math. But see the problem (according to dakkalites) is that every army has at least a -1 to hit, more often -2 or -3 to hit. I don't agree, but that's how it is in every meta it seems.
ehh actually, you're right...I can see how orks could present an interesting opportunity for data analysis and such...it may not particularly interest me, or give me any personal enjoyment, because it's just not my "thing"...but really, what right do I have to begrudge others their interest/enjoyment of such things?...I'll shut up and go back to painting, carry on!
ZoBo wrote: ehh actually, you're right...I can see how orks could present an interesting opportunity for data analysis and such...it may not particularly interest me, or give me any personal enjoyment, because it's just not my "thing"...but really, what right do I have to begrudge others their interest/enjoyment of such things?...I'll shut up and go back to painting, carry on!
That's why everyone is talking about 5% extra hits. Additionally, it's more meaningful to discuss the extra hits (instead of shots), as that is one step closer to the outcome, and it accounts for ballistic skill.
Finally, you can not discuss the % increase in wounds without knowing the toughness and save of the target, which is why no one is discussing % increase in wounds like in your example.
30 shootas shoot with DDD. 23.333 hits vs 20 hits. That's 16.6666% more hits than before. Divide 23.3333 with 20 if you don't believe it. Sheesh.
On other topic suggestions for what klan trait(except snakebite) would work nicely with stompa? I would like to bring Stompa to apoc game with up to 6k per player(if for nothing else to reduce my model count...) but all needs to be painted. Thus, seeing how big model it is, I can't wait for codex and THEN to paint. I need to take risk of either rumours be false or there being klan specific trait that would work wonderfully with the stompa.
Snakebites would likely be optimal game effect wise(almost 16.67% more wounds) but...snakebite and stompa? Doesn't fit for my fluff head. Snakebites are supposed to be most primitive orks. Not super stompa builders
Goff's would certainly give more oomph in h2h but that doesn't feel like issue ever. Dethskulls would give inv save but 6++ is bit wimpy for this big expensive model. Spare mek with KFF is worth it. Evil sunz would help getting faster but unless rumours are missed I can't advance and shoot most of stompas weapon. Though +2" on turn I charge would still be helpful. Bad moons...Well this one is packing tons of guns so could be worth it. Blood axe(stealth stompa Lol ) would give 2+ save which is as good as kustom force field vs lascannons and better vs any -1 save guns(like helverin guns) or worse trying to wound me. Worse against -4 or better though.
Currently leaning toward evil sunz(as weird as fast stompa feels...bit similar issue to snakebites though not as bad) or bad moons.
Coh Magnussen wrote: Can we agree that 100 shots @ BS 5+ yields ~33.3 hits? Can we also agree that with DDD, 16.7 of those shots will be 6 resulting in additional attacks?
How about that 116.7 shots at BS 5+ yields ~38.9 hits?
If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that 33.3 * 1.167 = ~38.9?
Alright so it is not the language we are using, it is the anchor that is different.
My version: Of the 100 shots you made, 5% more of them will hit. Clearly elicited by your example as a difference in 5.6 shots (5.6% of 100)
Your version: When landing 33 hits, you will gain 16% more hits.
So long as our language is the same (hits and shots) I think we are clearly on the same page.
tneva82 wrote: On other topic suggestions for what klan trait(except snakebite) would work nicely with stompa? I would like to bring Stompa to apoc game with up to 6k per player(if for nothing else to reduce my model count...) but all needs to be painted. Thus, seeing how big model it is, I can't wait for codex and THEN to paint. I need to take risk of either rumours be false or there being klan specific trait that would work wonderfully with the stompa.
Snakebites would likely be optimal game effect wise(almost 16.67% more wounds) but...snakebite and stompa? Doesn't fit for my fluff head. Snakebites are supposed to be most primitive orks. Not super stompa builders
Goff's would certainly give more oomph in h2h but that doesn't feel like issue ever. Dethskulls would give inv save but 6++ is bit wimpy for this big expensive model. Spare mek with KFF is worth it. Evil sunz would help getting faster but unless rumours are missed I can't advance and shoot most of stompas weapon. Though +2" on turn I charge would still be helpful. Bad moons...Well this one is packing tons of guns so could be worth it. Blood axe(stealth stompa Lol ) would give 2+ save which is as good as kustom force field vs lascannons and better vs any -1 save guns(like helverin guns) or worse trying to wound me. Worse against -4 or better though.
Currently leaning toward evil sunz(as weird as fast stompa feels...bit similar issue to snakebites though not as bad) or bad moons.
fwiw, I have a stompa already painted as badmoonz, and rerolling 1's to hit on all it's dakka sounds decent enough, so I don't think I'll be repainting it
...that said, I'm also trying to decide on a clan for the gorkanaut I've just finished building...I've never played a 'naut before either, so I don't even have a feel for how it normally runs currently...the rest of my army is very "mixed clans" at the moment though...leaning mostly on goffs, evil sunz and deffskulls...
For gorkanaut thinking evil sunz as less shooting to lose and combos nicely with rumoured tellyport strategem, maybe even 3d6 charge forsame reason. Or dethskulj as due to deep strike kff is less quaranteed thing
tneva82 wrote: For gorkanaut thinking evil sunz as less shooting to lose and combos nicely with rumoured tellyport strategem, maybe even 3d6 charge forsame reason. Or dethskulj as due to deep strike kff is less quaranteed thing
Yes I was gonna do Evil sunz goraknauts for just that reason. Depends on the stratagems though, if the teleport and 3d6 charge are clan specific or have weird wording it could change things
normal orks DDD extra hits = 5,5% BadMoon orks DDD extra hits = 7,5%
I keep seeing "it's 16.7% extra hits"... "No, it's only ~5.5% extra hits".
If you would have hit 100 times without DDD, you will hit approximately 116.7 times with DDD. That surely looks like a 16.7% increase in hits to me.
If you SHOOT 100 times, DDD will generate ~16.7 extra attacks. That's 16.7% more attacks, which should on average yield 16.7% more hits than without DDD.
</soapbox>
errr thats not how math works^^
because if you SHOOT 100 times, yes you generate 16,7 more ATTACKS with DDD, but to hit with those extra attacks you will need to divide them by 3 to get your extra hits... and 16,7 : 3 is what again?
normal orks DDD extra hits = 5,5%
BadMoon orks DDD extra hits = 7,5%
I keep seeing "it's 16.7% extra hits"... "No, it's only ~5.5% extra hits".
If you would have hit 100 times without DDD, you will hit approximately 116.7 times with DDD. That surely looks like a 16.7% increase in hits to me.
If you SHOOT 100 times, DDD will generate ~16.7 extra attacks. That's 16.7% more attacks, which should on average yield 16.7% more hits than without DDD.
</soapbox>
errr thats not how math works^^
because if you SHOOT 100 times, yes you generate 16,7 more ATTACKS with DDD, but to hit with those extra attacks you will need to divide them by 3 to get your extra hits... and 16,7 : 3 is what again?
Spoiler:
5,5%
Yes that is how math works. Absolute gain vs relative gain.
For the second time, can we stop this idiotic discussion?
tneva82 wrote: For gorkanaut thinking evil sunz as less shooting to lose and combos nicely with rumoured tellyport strategem, maybe even 3d6 charge forsame reason. Or dethskulj as due to deep strike kff is less quaranteed thing
Yes I was gonna do Evil sunz goraknauts for just that reason. Depends on the stratagems though, if the teleport and 3d6 charge are clan specific or have weird wording it could change things
One issue I have with evil sunz is personal problem. I have walkers with bad moon, deff skull and goff colours. If I do evil sunz that means I can't field all my walkers at once period.
Also realized just something...I need to repaint one of my(well albeit unfinished but clan colour is already there) deff dread. It's bad moon...With twin skorchas. Guess what? Klan trait won't help that at all! ARGH!
I might switch goff and bad moon weapons thus. Sigh. At least I have good paint removal method.
you dont need to repaint to use the klan traits; and if you REALLY want a way to deliniate you can paint the edge of the bases in colors to denote clan seperation
davou wrote: you dont need to repaint to use the klan traits; and if you REALLY want a way to deliniate you can paint the edge of the bases in colors to denote clan seperation
When I have goffs as goffs and bad moons as bad moons like hell IDENTICAL COLOURED bad moons will have different klan trait. No way I'm that rude to my opponent.
From a youtube channel. The uploader got this rumours from a guy claiming to be a playtester. He also said that person knew about those buggies before their release.
On the other side the army traits are basicly what most of us would expect for those clans so could be a good guess as well.
@DakkaDakkaDakka!: I love it! Since I play shooty bad moons with lots of shootaboys, flash gits, lootas, tank bustas, battle waggons full of dakka and mek / grot guns this will change a lot for me.
For example my lootas. Before I couldn't shoot fliers if that tank moved, now they can and that 15 lootas will get get 10 hits assuming 3 shots each + Bad Moons trait. Tankbustas will get 5 hits advancing and shooting fliers instead of zero. Adds a lot flexibility and thread range.
That is even without considering shooty strategems we might get as well, like dakkadakkadakka triggering on 5+, getting two extra shots on a 6 or a bad moons strategem rerolling more than just ones.
And it's for free. So often that dakkadakkadakka would have killed that tank one turn earlier or shot that scoring unit from their objective.
With that army trait it's almost 50% more hits for bad moons.
davou wrote: you dont need to repaint to use the klan traits; and if you REALLY want a way to deliniate you can paint the edge of the bases in colors to denote clan seperation
When I have goffs as goffs and bad moons as bad moons like hell IDENTICAL COLOURED bad moons will have different klan trait. No way I'm that rude to my opponent.
well then you're troubling youself for your own reasons, not because the game made you.
if someone comes across this post, he is inclined to think DDD gives you 16.7% more hits (edit: as in total). but that is simply not true.
5,5% is the number everyone should have in mind when judging DDD. its not much but it is a notable boost.
Coh Magnussen's number on the other hand seems to blow it out of propotion. not a good thing to have in a tactics thread.
Y'all are killin' me here. Assuming you start with the same number of attacks -- With DDD your total number of hits is 16.7% higher than your number of hits without DDD. This assumes the same number of attacks. That math is indisputible. If you compare apples to apples -- whether you look at attack rolls, actual hits, or actual wounds, the only number that matters is 16.7%.
If a unit of <any element of the ork army, regardless of BS> gets X hits on average without DDD, then that same unit gets X * 1.167 hits on average with DDD. 16.7% increase in firepower.
If a unit of <any element of the ork army> gets Y wounds against <any element of any other army>, then that same unit shooting at the same opponent deals Y * 1.167 wounds. 16.7% increase in firepower.
bit of basic algebra -- assume A = #attacks, H = #hits, and W=#wounds %h is the chance of hitting a given attack, and %w is the chance of a given hit wounding (yes, the %h and %w will change based on the shooting unit and the shot-at unit, but for purposes of DDD vs no DDD they will be the same value)
H = A*%h
W = H*%w
or if you put it all together for Wounds, which is what we probably care about, W = A*%h*%w. now lets apply DDD, which we at least all agree results in 16.7% more attack rolls. So with DDD, W = (1.167*A)*%h*%w. enter the associative property of multiplication, and W = 1.167* (A*%h*%w). Which is clearly a 16.7% increase in wounds over what you had without DDD.
If you want to argue the above statements I'll be glad to go over the math with you, but in deference to Jidmah I'll take it to PM. If you accept the above statements as true then I don't see how you can argue that the 'right' number for firepower improvement is 5.5% instead of 16.7%.
Jayne Cobb wrote:Ten percent of nothing is - let me do the math here. Nothing into nothing. Carry the nothing...
My first glance at the exploding 6s of Dakka Dakka Dakka is that it's fine for something free, but won't fix ork shooting by itself. My concern is that it's going to be a lot of rolling without much extra result. It's pretty much impossible to judge without seeing a lot more of the codex though.
Jidmah wrote: Yes that is how math works. Absolute gain vs relative gain.
For the second time, can we stop this idiotic discussion?
no it doesnt work that way. and we can stop this stupid discussion when you stop spreading misinformation...
That's 16.7% more attacks, which should on average yield 16.7% more hits than without DDD.
if someone comes across this post, he is inclined to think DDD gives you 16.7% more hits (edit: as in total). but that is simply not true.
5,5% is the number everyone should have in mind when judging DDD. its not much but it is a notable boost.
Coh Magnussen's number on the other hand seems to blow it out of propotion. not a good thing to have in a tactics thread.
Please go google absolute and relative before writing dumb stuff.
100 shots hit 33.33 times without DDD 100 shots hit 38.88 times with DDD
Absolute gain in hits is 5.55 in 100 or 5.55% (% means per hundred in case you didn't know) Relative gain is 5.55/33.33 which is 16.66%
First one is important to evaluate if the rule has any notable effect on killing stuff, the second one to evaluate the increase in shooting efficiency.
Love your work Jid, people will continue to ignore you though :(
It's really important to "not be misleading" in a tactics thread, so one of those numbers are "correct", and they will find it.
davou wrote: you dont need to repaint to use the klan traits; and if you REALLY want a way to deliniate you can paint the edge of the bases in colors to denote clan seperation
When I have goffs as goffs and bad moons as bad moons like hell IDENTICAL COLOURED bad moons will have different klan trait. No way I'm that rude to my opponent.
well then you're troubling youself for your own reasons, not because the game made you.
davou wrote: you dont need to repaint to use the klan traits; and if you REALLY want a way to deliniate you can paint the edge of the bases in colors to denote clan seperation
When I have goffs as goffs and bad moons as bad moons like hell IDENTICAL COLOURED bad moons will have different klan trait. No way I'm that rude to my opponent.
well then you're troubling youself for your own reasons, not because the game made you.
And he won't seem super power gamey
And we won't run into situation where "wait where was unit with X rules? Was it this? Or that?". I have been through that once where NEITHER player could remember which one was which(was matter of which biker captain exactly was the one that had hit&run and which one was tough as hell. They were against different units and one of them was in serious trouble. He would have liked to get the hell out of there. I obviously wanted to keep him there rather than get blown to bits. Much talking and oohming and at the end we had to dice it. Having experienced that myself like hell I will risk same with my own army). Have fun sorting that out. Can easily ruin atmosphere of game.
Especially easy to run out in say 6k games...Which is, funny that, what I'll likely be heading next month.
Yeah it's not technically rule but it's basic courtesy. It helps YOU play it straight and more importantly helps your opponent to know without having to constantly double check you _and have just your word to go by_
Repainting that one UNFINISHED model is small price to pay for avoiding THAT. Too bad my walkers are goff/dethskull/bad moons. If rather than goff/dethskulls one had been evil sunz it could have been as simple as airbrush red over yellow. I usually use yellow as intermediate colour for red anyway while airbrushing! But I want to keep walkers in 3 klans to allow using all together.
Now if someones army had been ALL bad moon and he would decide to use other klan fine. I'm not fan of that style but it's fair play and won't be overly confusing as all models will use same rules. But my army, inspired by 2nd edition and war of armageddon fluff, is collection of all klans(well 4 ATM. Missing blood axes and snakebite and thanks to the super time consuming trait in codex I'm doubtful will I ever expand into snakebites) under Ghazzkhul. So for sake of sanity for BOTH players one klan colour scheme uses one klan rules consistently.
edit: Realized even BIGGER issue with the whole klan rules and my collection...Grots...I have 120 of those buggers. They are deliberately painted as rag tag no klan colours on the principle these are not as organized as orks and generally collect scraps and bits and clothes where they want. There's zero unifying colours there besides skin...
Which means that with potentially over half a dozen unit separating which is what is going to be super hard...
...Guess I will voluntarily nerf myself and play them as clanless. No bonuses and warboss won't smash heads to keep morale up. Sigh. But small price to avoid the headache "these identical grots are goff, these are bad moons etc" and like hell I will repaint them all! Especially as I like the look of that ragtag collection of mischiffs.
PiñaColada wrote: Can't you just add some coloured markings to the grots' bases? Either numbers or just colour coded to the different klans?
That's one possibility though takes away from visuality. Also I have to check how that works with movement trays. Ie are the bases VISIBLE enough from the movement trays for easy identification.
Another issue with that is that since I don't have 3+ units of boyz per klan(at least yet) I'm 100% REQUIRED to use grots to fill battallions. Even after I get the rest of my boyz painted it means I have: 1 bad moon, 1 goff, 2 deth skull, 2 evil sunz mob. This means MINIMUM I need is 2 units of grots. And exact grot mob sizes vary between games. Thus especially if I field goff and bad moon not sure do I have enough grots to have sufficient flexibility with grot mobs. They were intended partially as filler units to fill up battallions :-/ I might have to buy(and paint) even MORE grots. Not feasible for a while with the speed freek and new mobs.
Ah well. It's the warboss morale boost I'll be missing most but that's why I have been having runtherds anyway. Generally warbosses were elsewhere anyway buffing orks rather than grots. 1-2 warboss have hard time being everywhere!
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the teleport strategem apart from gorkanaut one thing I'm planning to try is tons of evil sunz boyz. Just wondering whether(assumign rumour is true and it's 20PL total and not one unit) 30+10, mob up and charge or 2x20 would be better. 30+10 would result in huge mob of 40 to crash into enemy with +1 attack. 2x20 will likely not get that +1 A but would have flexibility of hitting multiple places at once and more reliable than 1 unit of getting at least 1 charge. 8", rerolls or not, can still fail and 40 mob with all that CP usage(likely 4 plus possibly CP reroll) is investement that sucks if it fails.
Wonder what to bring with that remaining 2 PL. Not much characters that fit so 10 grots to annoy enemy? Could be used to protect maybe flank of the orks that teleported.
Of course what remains to be seen is a) whether that teleport strategem even allows multiple units b) timing wise can you teleport and then mob up. If not that 40 mobs ain't coming anyway.
Hopefully it can be. This is nasty but there's already nastier stuff that can do similar things so hardly game breaking.
PiñaColada wrote: Can't you just add some coloured markings to the grots' bases? Either numbers or just colour coded to the different klans?
That's one possibility though takes away from visuality. Also I have to check how that works with movement trays. Ie are the bases VISIBLE enough from the movement trays for easy identification.
Another issue with that is that since I don't have 3+ units of boyz per klan(at least yet) I'm 100% REQUIRED to use grots to fill battallions. Even after I get the rest of my boyz painted it means I have: 1 bad moon, 1 goff, 2 deth skull, 2 evil sunz mob. This means MINIMUM I need is 2 units of grots. And exact grot mob sizes vary between games. Thus especially if I field goff and bad moon not sure do I have enough grots to have sufficient flexibility with grot mobs. They were intended partially as filler units to fill up battallions :-/ I might have to buy(and paint) even MORE grots. Not feasible for a while with the speed freek and new mobs.
"Rag tag no clan colors" is pretty much what snakebites are though. If you want to stay WYSIWYG, just run your gretchin as snakebites?
Otherwise, put magnets on your movement trays, paint up some ork clan glyphs from the boyz/nobz box and stick them to magnet as well. Instant clan change and it even looks decent. Another idea would be building small gretchin standard bearers.
On the teleport strategem apart from gorkanaut one thing I'm planning to try is tons of evil sunz boyz. Just wondering whether(assumign rumour is true and it's 20PL total and not one unit) 30+10, mob up and charge or 2x20 would be better. 30+10 would result in huge mob of 40 to crash into enemy with +1 attack. 2x20 will likely not get that +1 A but would have flexibility of hitting multiple places at once and more reliable than 1 unit of getting at least 1 charge. 8", rerolls or not, can still fail and 40 mob with all that CP usage(likely 4 plus possibly CP reroll) is investement that sucks if it fails.
You could also get 4x10 to have maximum amount of nobz.
Wonder what to bring with that remaining 2 PL. Not much characters that fit so 10 grots to annoy enemy? Could be used to protect maybe flank of the orks that teleported.
There might be a better use for those last 7 PL than bringing 10 boyz, so maybe Dok Grotsnik or a unit of Flash Gits. Once we have our codex I'm sure there will be 2-3 viable combos that will outshine all others.
Of course what remains to be seen is a) whether that teleport strategem even allows multiple units b) timing wise can you teleport and then mob up. If not that 40 mobs ain't coming anyway.
As above, the limit to 20 PL wouldn't make sense if it was limited to one unit.
As for the mob up, that would be a clear no. With the big FAQ, there have been multiple answers for other armies that disallowed the usage of "at the end of movement" stratagems on units arriving from deep strike, like DG Cloud of Flies on teleporting terminators.
Jidmah wrote: "Rag tag no clan colors" is pretty much what snakebites are though. If you want to stay WYSIWYG, just run your gretchin as snakebites?
HUGE issue that: I would not have single battallion of any other clan then legal without giving up clan trait...Only battallion I could run is snakebite with grots...
Also even worse: Snakebite is HUGE time sinker with that bloody feel no pain that is huge time sinker. My slowest games are always vs dark eldars with that bloody FNP and that's with dark eldars. Imagine 200 grots with snakebite...
Now albeit snakebite is probably one of the best tournament traits for orks as a whole. I made list I could soon play that has 180 boyz and 120 grots. FNP with those and good luck getting past turn 2 in time. That FNP would make it time eating as hell. I wouldn't even need to deliberately to slowplay when you would have tons of 2-3 dice groups you need to roll for FNP.
You could also get 4x10 to have maximum amount of nobz.
That costs 2 PL more and you can't mob up more than 2 units together so you would have 2 tiny units and 1 medium only.
As above, the limit to 20 PL wouldn't make sense if it was limited to one unit.
As for the mob up, that would be a clear no. With the big FAQ, there have been multiple answers for other armies that disallowed the usage of "at the end of movement" stratagems on units arriving from deep strike, like DG Cloud of Flies on teleporting terminators.
Generally other armies have PL limit for deep strike(or some other limit) to cut off biggest stuff. GW might not want deep striking stompa after all...
And darn for the 2nd. Well that makes 30+10(nevermind 4x10) less appealing.
Oh I love how people just fail miserably with basic math. And the fact that some keep comparing apples and oranges.
100 shots gives you 16,67 extra shots. A 16,67% gain in number of shots.
Which leads to:
33,33 hits vs 38,88 hits. A 16,67% gain in number of hits.
And it carries over to number of wounds regardless of toughness. A 16,67% gain in number of wounds.
It's a 16,67% increase, and the math is sound.
Oh and it's a 16,67% increase even with -1 to hit. You'll gain the same number of extra shots = 16,67% increase in shots. Which turns out to be
16,67 hits vs 19.44 hits which is a... wait for it... Oh my gosh, a 16,67% increase in hits! Who would have thought?
If you still believe it is a 5,5% gain then by all means do so, but please stop spreading your made up math in this thread.
I mean, at this point can we just be done with this argument? Whichever side of the 5.5%/16.67% rift you fall on, can this discussion just be moved to a mathhammer thread where the argument can be further run to the ground if needed?
Weazel wrote: Oh I love how people just fail miserably with basic math. And the fact that some keep comparing apples and oranges.
100 shots gives you 16,67 extra shots. A 16,67% gain in number of shots. Which leads to: 33,33 hits vs 38,88 hits. A 16,67% gain in number of hits.
And it carries over to number of wounds regardless of toughness. A 16,67% gain in number of wounds.
It's a 16,67% increase, and the math is sound.
Oh and it's a 16,67% increase even with -1 to hit. You'll gain the same number of extra shots = 16,67% increase in shots. Which turns out to be 16,67 hits vs 19.44 hits which is a... wait for it... Oh my gosh, a 16,67% increase in hits! Who would have thought?
If you still believe it is a 5,5% gain then by all means do so, but please stop spreading your made up math in this thread.
Thanks.
Both are right, please refer to my previous post.
Of course the relative gain stays the same when you get -1 to hit, but the absolute gain is less, simply because less of your additional shots hit.
I'll just start reporting every one arguing this from now on, hopefully others that are annoyed by this will too.
Weazel wrote: Oh I love how people just fail miserably with basic math. And the fact that some keep comparing apples and oranges.
100 shots gives you 16,67 extra shots. A 16,67% gain in number of shots.
Which leads to:
33,33 hits vs 38,88 hits. A 16,67% gain in number of hits.
And it carries over to number of wounds regardless of toughness. A 16,67% gain in number of wounds.
It's a 16,67% increase, and the math is sound.
Oh and it's a 16,67% increase even with -1 to hit. You'll gain the same number of extra shots = 16,67% increase in shots. Which turns out to be
16,67 hits vs 19.44 hits which is a... wait for it... Oh my gosh, a 16,67% increase in hits! Who would have thought?
If you still believe it is a 5,5% gain then by all means do so, but please stop spreading your made up math in this thread.
Thanks.
Both are right, please refer to my previous post.
Of course the relative gain stays the same when you get -1 to hit, but the absolute gain is less, simply because less of your additional shots hit.
I'll just start reporting every one arguing this from now on, hopefully others that are annoyed by this will too.
5.5% comes when you compare the number of extra HITS to the number of initial SHOTS. That's comparing apples and oranges.
E: Anyway, I don't want to argue about this further either since (excuse my arrogance) I know I'm on the right about this.
Jidmah wrote: "Rag tag no clan colors" is pretty much what snakebites are though. If you want to stay WYSIWYG, just run your gretchin as snakebites?
HUGE issue that: I would not have single battallion of any other clan then legal without giving up clan trait...Only battallion I could run is snakebite with grots...
Also even worse: Snakebite is HUGE time sinker with that bloody feel no pain that is huge time sinker. My slowest games are always vs dark eldars with that bloody FNP and that's with dark eldars. Imagine 200 grots with snakebite...
Now albeit snakebite is probably one of the best tournament traits for orks as a whole. I made list I could soon play that has 180 boyz and 120 grots. FNP with those and good luck getting past turn 2 in time. That FNP would make it time eating as hell. I wouldn't even need to deliberately to slowplay when you would have tons of 2-3 dice groups you need to roll for FNP.
True. Try the other suggestions then. Or just give every unit some sort of marking and not the mark on your army rooster. Or maybe put colors on them that don't match any clan markings, so they can count as whatever you need. For my pox walkers I have packs of 10 painted in one color, so if I need a unit of 2x20, I just combine green and purple pox walkers in one and blue and grey pox walkers in another unit. If I need 3x 10 each unit has its own color.
You could also get 4x10 to have maximum amount of nobz.
That costs 2 PL more and you can't mob up more than 2 units together so you would have 2 tiny units and 1 medium only.
Yeah, but the only things you can get for those 2 PL are gretchin, two runtherds or a single big gun. Since you most likely can't mob them up anyways, there is little lost. Really depends on how much PKs cost and what their stats are though.
Generally other armies have PL limit for deep strike(or some other limit) to cut off biggest stuff. GW might not want deep striking stompa after all...
20PL is still very odd since the single units it excludes aren't powerful at all (especially not compared to a Gorkanaut). They could just have excluded titanic and gargantuan models if they wanted the stompa and big squiggoth out.
Also note no army has a PL limit for deep strike, daemons just pay more CP if they reach a certain PL threshold. All of them limit their stratagems by the number of units they allow to bring.
Jidmah wrote: Or maybe put colors on them that don't match any clan markings, so they can count as whatever you need.
That's what they basically are but the issue comes that grot unit A is pretty much identical looking to grot unit B. Fine if they all use same klan but as I need multiple klans just to fill battallions that results in identical models sharing different rules. That's big no-go. Have had huge headaches due to opponent doing that and that was with 2 models. We are talking about 100+ easily...
Seems like it's either base edge(if movement trays don't put an end to that idea) or simply play them klanless. Only big help from my klans would be dethskulls so 1-2 unit from there. Goffs? Bohoo. Oh and that warboss thing but as generally either grots are totally elsewhere to orks or first grot, then boyz, then warboss they rarely have got that anyway. Only so many places 1-2 warboss can reach anyway.
For my pox walkers I have packs of 10 painted in one color, so if I need a unit of 2x20, I just combine green and purple pox walkers in one and blue and grey pox walkers in another unit. If I need 3x 10 each unit has its own color.
I have my grots in total random colours with total of 6 colours with 2-3 colours per grot in random places(pretty much literally. I take up colour and put in on random grots in random part. Then move in next colour etc. Sometimes have to pick up previous colour to fill in if I run up too many grots with too much unpainted area for the colour I use. Actually boyz have same system EXCEPT they have without fail clan colour prominantly somewhere. For boyz that's the first colour I put in on all models to ensure klan is obvious) so that doesn't really work. Not to mention exact composition changes often. Sometimes I have 3x30, sometimes 2x30 and 5x10, other times 1x30 and 7x10...
Yeah, but the only things you can get for those 2 PL are gretchin, two runtherds or a single big gun. Since you most likely can't mob them up anyways, there is little lost. Really depends on how much PKs cost and what their stats are though.
Well mobup isn't only thing that has to be. Mob of gretching around there to come between boyz and enemies that could come to flank could be useful. Or have grots go completely different direction say grab some unguarded objective...Well assuming strategem doesn't have some special limitation like every model within X" from certain point. Hard to say when we don't know 100% wording
20PL is still very odd since the single units it excludes aren't powerful at all (especially not compared to a Gorkanaut). They could just have excluded titanic and gargantuan models if they wanted the stompa and big squiggoth out.
Also note no army has a PL limit for deep strike, daemons just pay more CP if they reach a certain PL threshold. All of them limit their stratagems by the number of units they allow to bring.
Good point about daemons but other things it could limit are multiple deff dreads(22PL). Well we'll see. Could very well be just total PL but I don't count my eggs before they hatch. Rumours are not always all that accurate. Just ask any knight player how they felt about the shrine unit when rumours about that started to float and how they felt when FULL rules were revealed Even if initial rumours don't exactly lie they might have let out some crucial detail off. The initial rumours about shrine was 100% accurate. They just left out couple details out which meant what looked like "groovy" turned out into unit opponent is happy to give you for free on the off chance you are silly enough to use it...
Edit: tried out movement trays. Painting edge of base is not an option. It sinks into movement tray so well edge not visible. Painting edge of movement tray meanwhile does work. I just need to buy pile of them...
if you cant keep track of which models have which rules, none of them get them.
If you want to keep track you can add a mark to their bases and have a cheatsheet next to the table.
If you ABSOLUTELY dont want to marr a black run of plastic :eyeroll: then you can get a pack of elastic hair bands at the dollar store in different colors and lay one across your models neck.
Complaining that the color you arbitrarily chose in the past now invalidates something when the rules make no such implication is silly. You paid for the codex in whole, not for the parts that happen to match your favorite color.
My orks bases are colored red, green blue white and yellow. I also have checks on the trukks in similar colors so that I can deploy and keep squads seperated easy; it takes NOTHING away from the aesthetic
One of the easiest ways would be to build some banner Gretchin for each clan you plan to use.
Just stick it it the middle of each mob so they have a clear allegiance and both players can easily keep track.
Looks cool as well. You could even do the same for boys.
For example you could have a bad moons warlord that has a few evil sunz boys in his army. While they are painted yellow they have a evil suns banner to show where they came from.
wondering fo telling grot units apart on "borrowing" some on the many unused Goblin standards and associated goblins I have.
Normally they are all going to be Blood Axes, as thats how they are painted, and frankly dey is da best, but is some skullduggery is called for a few standard bearers in the units should make clan allegiance pretty hard to dispute - especially since while the grots match the colours of the boys, none carry the insignia
davou wrote: if you cant keep track of which models have which rules, none of them get them.
If you want to keep track you can add a mark to their bases and have a cheatsheet next to the table.
If you ABSOLUTELY dont want to marr a black run of plastic :eyeroll: then you can get a pack of elastic hair bands at the dollar store in different colors and lay one across your models neck.
Complaining that the color you arbitrarily chose in the past now invalidates something when the rules make no such implication is silly. You paid for the codex in whole, not for the parts that happen to match your favorite color.
My orks bases are colored red, green blue white and yellow. I also have checks on the trukks in similar colors so that I can deploy and keep squads seperated easy; it takes NOTHING away from the aesthetic
While tneva is almost famous for complaining for little to no reason, this one is a real problem he is trying to solve - having multiple units of gretchin that might be used to represent different clan's gretchins in different games. No need to attack him for that.
People calm down we only know part of the codex.
No point crying how Goffs suck or badmoons are useless or whatever we still don’t know what are the stratagems or relics...or special characters....
All of which makes playing certain clans over others.
how do other armies handle this issue? maybe ask them and they can give you reasonable solutions. i highly doubt every salamnder player went and repainted their army blue or whatever.
maybe this issue is not that big of an issue for the community (admittedly i dont have much experience with it, ive haven't gotten as many games in for 8th as i would've liked) and in a casual environment i haven't heard any real problems from other local gamers, also i think most tournaments will have clear rules on it.
at most, if you really want you can do some simple solutions that many have already stated. another one could be using a magnetized looted bit (like those abundant shell casing piles painted in clan colors) or banners for bases (have it on the nobz base if its a large squad, just remember who all is in the squad).
if the model does not have a base then work to do the magnetized painted banner on a noticeable spot on the figure.
as an alternative for going "really" expensive but your too lazy to repaint then add LED lighting that can change colors.
expensive=yes
diffcult to do=yes
is it flash=ALL DA ZOGGIN FLASH!!!!
There are two solutions done by Space Marines:
1) Just play the chapter you have painted, even if its not the most powerful one
2) Count your chapter as whatever you want
The issue really only arises when you want two models flying the same colors to represent two different klans, outside of highly competitive gaming this can easily be circumvented by just not playing more than one clan.
If you are aiming to win tournaments, painting proper klan colors should be a small effort compared to switching out large parts of your army when the meta changes. Most of my orks only have their shoulderpads, helmets or pants in clan colors, those are quickly repainted and washed.
IMO you simply have to decide whether you want to have your cake or whether you want to eat it.
Either you properly paint your models so they can be distinguished, your simply play your entire army as one klan, no matter how (or if) they are painted.
geargutz wrote: how do other armies handle this issue? maybe ask them and they can give you reasonable solutions. i highly doubt every salamnder player went and repainted their army blue or whatever.
maybe this issue is not that big of an issue for the community (admittedly i dont have much experience with it, ive haven't gotten as many games in for 8th as i would've liked) and in a casual environment i haven't heard any real problems from other local gamers, also i think most tournaments will have clear rules on it.
at most, if you really want you can do some simple solutions that many have already stated. another one could be using a magnetized looted bit (like those abundant shell casing piles painted in clan colors) or banners for bases (have it on the nobz base if its a large squad, just remember who all is in the squad).
if the model does not have a base then work to do the magnetized painted banner on a noticeable spot on the figure.
as an alternative for going "really" expensive but your too lazy to repaint then add LED lighting that can change colors.
expensive=yes
diffcult to do=yes
is it flash=ALL DA ZOGGIN FLASH!!!!
I think there is a matter of how much effort you have put into your army.
If your orks are only painted to the minimum tournament standard it is pretty easy to slob on some new paint here and there or just paint the edge of the bases. If you have an army that is fairly well painted then this issue just became a big problem.
Why would you want, say Boyz, from different clans anyway? I'm sure there's one cookie cutter Klan trait that is best for Boyz in all situations then just state that all your Boyz are Klan X, no matter how they are painted. Then have the rest of your army with different Klan traits if there's a better one suited for them (like Bad Moons is good for KMK etc).
I think the issue is more with gretchin than it is with boyz, you might want to put them with badmoons KMK in one game and with deffskull gorkaunauts in another.
Another reason might be wanting to run both Thrakka and Grotznik, for example.
Otherwise I agree, it might be a theoretical problem though, since most HQs need to match the clan they want to buff anyways.
if i understand correctly having multiple factions in a list mainly allows for each of those factions to use their stratagems..but not their actual faction trait?
so you bring a detachment of snakbites so you can use snakebite stratagems but bring goffs in your "main" detachment and that is the clan trait you use?
i only play orks so im so far unfamiliar with how this all works (never really studied the pertinent rules because they didn't apply to our index army).
geargutz wrote: if i understand correctly having multiple factions in a list mainly allows for each of those factions to use their stratagems..but not their actual faction trait?
so you bring a detachment of snakbites so you can use snakebite stratagems but bring goffs in your "main" detachment and that is the clan trait you use?
i only play orks so im so far unfamiliar with how this all works (never really studied the pertinent rules because they didn't apply to our index army).
Assuming orks will play like all other factions (there is no reason not to):
- One pure ORK detachment will unlock all stratagems. Klan specific stratagems are only limited to what they can target, but have no requirement of such detachment. For example, if you have a supreme command detachment with Thrakka(Goff), Grotznik(Deffskulls) and Badrukk(Freeboota), it would unlock all stratagems, you just could not use the Goff stratagem on Badrukk, but you could use the Freeboota stratagem on him.
- Said ORK detachment would also unlock battle-forged bonus, so troops get objective secured and maybe DakkaDakkaDakka (just guessing on this one).
- If all units in one detachment share the same <KLAN> keyword, they will gain the klan trait. Certain models may or may not be exempt for this (like Fallen for CSM or commissars for AM)
- If your Warlord is an ORK, you will be allowed to pick a free relic
geargutz wrote: if i understand correctly having multiple factions in a list mainly allows for each of those factions to use their stratagems..but not their actual faction trait?
so you bring a detachment of snakbites so you can use snakebite stratagems but bring goffs in your "main" detachment and that is the clan trait you use?
i only play orks so im so far unfamiliar with how this all works (never really studied the pertinent rules because they didn't apply to our index army).
If you have IG detachment(definition which is found in codex but unsurprisingly has units with Astra Militarum keyword for all) then you get IG strategems. Then if you have cadian unit you can use cadian strategem for them. You don't even need cadian detachment for that. Which is why you sometimes see IG detachments with mix of say valhallan, mordian etc. They won't have regimental trait since they mix regiments but they get relics and regiment specific strategems.
How orks know is not sure because in theory they could change it but presumably work similar way so you have ork detachment(ie play orks as so far orks can't ally with anything) you get ALL strategems but clan specific ones you can't use without having that clan members somewhere. And then they only work for those.
==========
Anyway tournament report! Orks went to casual tournament here. Probably last tournament/whatever for me with index due to closeness of codex. Maybe not even event near me I could attend. I took green tide to max. 1.5k.
Troop: Boyz: Nob, Power klaw, 29x Ork Boy w/slugga&Choppa 193 pts
Troop: Boyz: Nob, Big choppa, 19x Ork Boy w/slugga&Choppa, 10xOrk Boy w/shoota 187 pts
Troop: Boyz: Nob, Big choppa, 10x Ork Boy w/slugga&Choppa, 19xOrk Boy w/shoota 187 pts
Troop: Boyz: Nob, Power klaw, 29xOrk Boy w/shoota 193 pts
Ork Battallion(+5CP)
HQ: Bik Mek: Choppa, Kustom Force Field 75 pts
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump 62 pts
Elite: Mek Kun: Kustom Mega Kannon 42 pts
Elite: Mek Kun: Kustom Mega Kannon 42 pts
Elite: Mek Kun: Kustom Mega Kannon 42 pts
Total: 1500 pts
I'm actually cheesy bastard and didn't really tone down my list for casual figuring orks are already casual enough Thank god for movement trays which were bloody useful timing wise(3h hours).
Game 1. - Iron warrior gunline.
Spoiler:
He had 2 slaanesh predators, to hit buffer and sorcerer, scorpion FW artirelly tank from hell that was shooting total of 6d3 S6 -2 D2 shots hitting on 2+ if he got presience off(most of the time) rerolling 1's due to HQ. 6 terminators with termi HQ. Couple tac squads, 4 havocs. 10 cultists. That's...Lots of shooting! Escalating maelstrom card plus some eternal war mission I forgot.
I had to deploy on tough quarter for me with big building causing bit of a...roadblock to say the least. However I did get turn 1. So bad moons with max shootas were da jumped forward and everybody else basically rushed to objectives. I had 5 in control pretty much right off the bat or close next turn if need be. Shooting. Shootas blew out marine squadron. Haha! He btw was OK with me using dice app. And poor fellow had most amazing streak of 1's and 2's on save which vaporized his squad. First blood for orks. This left KMK's out of original target(I had wanted to aim for first blood rather than try 9" charge) so fired at predator but pretty inefficient.
His turn 1. Stayed put, blew out most of bad moons(CP used to keep morale) and all KMK's. I failed all 5++ and he even used strategem to shoot predator again. With tuesday game I have now failed like 24/26 inv saves. Stupid mek. I joked mek better make sure he dies or I'm going to kill him very painfully myself!
Turn 2: Bad moon remnants go in and charge predator. Evil suns(20/10 choppa/shoota) da jumped next to cultists. I basically start securing objectives. Evil sunz shot at chaos marines and charged(and killed) all the cultists.
He brings in all terminators to my left(he considered going for solo strike toward my weirdboys, both with 2 wounds having perilled, but opted not to do near suicide). Predator flees and my bad moons finished off. Evil sunz shot badly. Loooots of grots die to termi bolters and plasmas pester my boyz.
Turn 3. Objective grabbing, putting up grot screen toward terminators and 2 remaining boyz rushing toward there. Evil sunz charge and dent predator. He responds by lumbering forward, vaporizing tons of grots and some boyz. Charges final grot screen which goes "poof" and he tags my deth skulls. Whoops. Bit too close.
Turn 4: I would have liked to bring in my warboss but due to roadblock couldn't. Drat. So I actually FELL BACK and put in more grots hoping to delay(might not work. Damn all that bolters etc). Weirdboy moved in and smited d6 mortals(exact 10) causing 6 wounds to terminator lord. At this point I rushed to check did the 10 grot crew from KMK have weapons. No...Drat. Not even pistol! ARGH! Would have been funny to kill him. Damn +1W warlord trait. Sacrificed one weirdboy by da jumping him to objective next to his army to get VP.
So his turn. Lumbers forward with terminators, vaporizes grot screen and bunch of death skulls, charges in and kills poor blue boyz. Oh and warlord decided to go the hell out of and "advanced" behind corner of building out of LOS. Hahahaha! Run away!
Turn 5: Warboss leads goffs into a charge at the terminators. I shot at them killing 1, charged in. With warboss and goffs killed 2 more leaving 3 left.
He basically killed some stuff and then we rolled did game end. It did. I had like 40 models left(mostly grots) but won 13-8 in vp's. Phew.
Game 2: Shooty blood angels(no that's not a typo) with knight.
Having seen those metal/blue marines with lots of guns in there I figured iron hands or ultramarines. Then I checked list and saw blood angels. Checked no slamquinus. No(Well this WAS casual tournament). Was like woot? Shooty blood angels. Not a sight you see often.
Scenario was very bad for me. Start 1 card, then turn 2 card per objective. Kill points...Ugh.
Turn 1: Knight advanced slightly keeping 1 KMK out of range. Used descend of angels to send jump packers to my rear to shoot weirdboy. Whoops. Forgot that one. Not seeing jump packing character thought I was safe. Forgot those can use it too...Drat. Shooting wasn't too bad as KMK finally started to work but weirdboy did die.
I respond moving forward to get objective 1(which he also had). I maybe screwed up and sent bad moons to deal with that 3 jump packers. KMK's tried at knight but 4++ kept unhurt. Not that he even needed 4++...5++ was enough. Other KMK blew out jump packer. Shootas took down other. Charge from bad moons caused just 1 wound though. Drat. In hindsight as opponent noted should have used KMK's to deal with them rather than worry about knight.
Turn 2: He got bunch of cards related to objective 1 so rushed there with knight. Shooting still fairly light overall but 1 KMK did die. My turn I TOO got like 2 cards for objective 1....Sheesh. It was like 2-3 cards per side dealing with that. Knight charged in killing tons of grots.
My turn. I screwed up HUGE. I fell back with grots from knights. Problem is I only fell back 1"...Meanwhile I got 2 cards related to objective 4 on his backline so another mistake likely and sent evil sunz there. Failed the charge though and they were killed next turn. On h2h phase knight heroic intervened vs grots and stomped them opening up hole to my boyz...Whoops.
Turn 3: Charge into boyz, kill tons. Shoot lots as well. Evil sunz died.
I retreated with survivors from knights, tried shooting, charged with goffs and warboss. Dented finally it(Go warboss!) but still 14 wounds left.
Turn 4: He fell back from combat and prepared to blow my weirdboy(he had witchhunt objective) which he did with ease as well as runtherd. Lots of orks died left and right.
I fell back with warboss and goffs hoping to keep them alive.
Turn 5: He surprised me and didn't go for objective with knight and instead went and charged my warboss after shooting tons of grots. Careless there. I assumed he wanted "control 3 objective" card more than my warlord so had killed goffs that would have prevented. Figured force him to abandon objective if he wants to get goffs would be enough. Whoops.
I was basically just running stuff out of combat and hide.
Turn 6: Kill some more stuff. Game ends.
Before kill points it was like 15-10. With kill points(I had only killed 2 complete units...) it was 0-20 loss for me. Ouch.
All that objective 1 was bad for me maybe. That was worth tons of vp's so wasn't feeling giving it up but that turned into slaughter house...Then deployment mistake, bad moon mistake and mistaken da jump with evil sunz. Also maybe should have used mob up rule with small grot squads...
Game 3. Grey knights. 26 models vs 243! More than 9 to 1!
Spoiler:
So he had 2 special characters, some banner bearer(SC?) who was warlord. 3 basic troop squads, 4 flamer squad(ouch), dreadnought with lascannons and missile, flier of some kind. Very...tame army indeed. Even for casual tournament this was super soft.
For scenario 3 pts per objective in the end, 1 card and then turn 2 1 per objective, no kill points. Perfect for me. Deployment I had again hard time due to huge building. Partially my fault. Went for objectives rather than easy movement. Didn't get turn 1 this time. First rolls were 2-1 so tie due to +1 and then he rolled 6. Ah well.
Turn 1:
Anyway he flew closer and brought 2 characters from DZ to edge of his DZ(guess he deep struck there just in case to avoid sniping). Worst was his flamer squad was bit exposed from one angle...As was one basic squad. Shooting killed like 4 orks as KMK finally started working blocking lascannons(helped by lousy to hit and wound rolls).
I da jumped bad moons again toward basic squad that had rushed to objective 1 he had and I had AGAIN got as well. What's up with objective 1's? Shooting. 2 KMK had LOS to flamer squad and blew them right away taking MW each. Final KMK hadn't had LOS anyway so shot at the basic squad near bad moons. However 6 shots resulted in nothing. No hits, no MW's. Weird shot. Bad moons shot 1 dead but failed the charge.
Turn 2: He brings in 2 more squads from deep strike toward bad moons. His flyer was in bit trouble having to use gate of infinity to get him out of there(otherwise I Could have literally caused him to crash and burn due to no place to move...) so went to his rear. Shooting vaporized 29 bad moons leaving just nob. I used CP to keep him alive.
My turn. I got nice set of objectives so went ahead already. Psychic I sent up evil sunz to his rear but this time it was more sensible I think than last. IF I can charge that's a) prevent defend objective for him b) prevent dread from shooting c) force him to split attention. So shooting I killed all but 1 from basic squad near objective 1 with my bad moon nob next. I opted to not shoot more to ensure I can get charge and get that secure 1. Evil sunz fired at dreadnought and caused whopping 3 wounds. Charge. Evil suns charge succesfully dreadnought. Bad moon nob charges but takes 2 hits from 4 shots in overwatch. 2 wounds. Crap. Luckily I rolled 6 and killed him in h2h. Struct there first to make damned sure intercept doesn't get him. Objective mine. And evil sunz killed dreadnought as well. Good.
Turn 3: He goes for "nothing to do but go for glory" and was about to head for goffs and dethskulls and then...Changes mind and goes toward evil sunz. IMO this was mistake on his part. Flier moves, is teleported back, shoots. Basically he blew tons of evil sunz but here I was cunning and took up entire front of my unit. Albeit this took out most of my choppas AND my nob but this made him harder to charge(6" and 9" and all 3 solo's were over 12"...). Albeit the 2 troop units got in but they didn't do much and I started grinding them down.
My turn. Due to evil sunz situation his characters were open for shooting! KMK's killed his warlord without too much of an effort. Hah! There was also 1 character behind building that hadn't went toward evil sunz. Some sort of SC's. He was there holding objective. I had also the "control center" so if I wanted it I had to kill him. 30 grots teleported next to him as well shooting for wound or two. Goffs advanced and charged him. Basically killed him right away without too much of a trouble. THEN he let out know he now gets to strike ANYWAY. 5 attacks hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ getting extra attacks on successes and then with strategem FIGHT AGAIN. After dying he in otherwords sliced 12 goffs...Whoops. Well good trade off but that's not what you often see! Oh and evil sunz finished all but 1 grey knight.
Turn 4: His big SC terminator moves in and charges deth skulls. Flier moved next to my warboss(whoops) and killed him with twin short range lascannons. Well this was going so well didn't even feel bad about losing him(though had been looking up for duel vs his big SC. Though not 1 on 1! With lots of boyz in support ). Oh and that lone grey knight vs evil sunz teleported to my rear and charged one KMK. And sliced several dethskulls suffering wound or two.
My turn. I smited for 6 wounds, KMK fell back, other killed the GK, other shot at flier leaving it with 3 wounds. 30 grots that had just been wandering around not having anything to actually DO fired and caused yet another...Haha. That's just adding insult to injury. Goff mob charged vs his SC but not much but dethskulls put him off. With just flier left wipeout.
So there. 3 games, one minor victory, 0-20(But not wipeout) and 20-0. 13/20 for painting. 46/80 pts in other words. Seeing my usual record is like 13-15 pts painting included way over average!
But exhausting physically. I had no time to relax during turns and mid games I was busy setting up models on movement trays! GOOD thing was though I was among fastest tables every round I had almost hour left generally. Opponents were generally relaxed so weren't oohming and aahming and thinking super long. Biggest exception was game 2 though even he was fairly relaxed but hey when I said "don't bother too carefully measuring. You can put them so they can shoot" and he still measured them to exact spot and even so that 1 couldn't shoot at him. I would have been fine just put them there roughly and shoot for sake of speed.
Also all opponents were OK for using dice app for rolling big batches which was huge time saver. Combined with movement trays and the fact my turns were generally fairly low on shooting/h2h so that helped. And judges were wondering if I could play games in time Haha. With time to spare!
geargutz wrote: if i understand correctly having multiple factions in a list mainly allows for each of those factions to use their stratagems..but not their actual faction trait?
so you bring a detachment of snakbites so you can use snakebite stratagems but bring goffs in your "main" detachment and that is the clan trait you use?
i only play orks so im so far unfamiliar with how this all works (never really studied the pertinent rules because they didn't apply to our index army).
If you have IG detachment(definition which is found in codex but unsurprisingly has units with Astra Militarum keyword for all) then you get IG strategems. Then if you have cadian unit you can use cadian strategem for them. You don't even need cadian detachment for that. Which is why you sometimes see IG detachments with mix of say valhallan, mordian etc. They won't have regimental trait since they mix regiments but they get relics and regiment specific strategems.
How orks know is not sure because in theory they could change it but presumably work similar way so you have ork detachment(ie play orks as so far orks can't ally with anything) you get ALL strategems but clan specific ones you can't use without having that clan members somewhere. And then they only work for those.
==========
Anyway tournament report! Orks went to casual tournament here. Probably last tournament/whatever for me with index due to closeness of codex. Maybe not even event near me I could attend. I took green tide to max. 1.5k.
Troop: Boyz: Nob, Power klaw, 29x Ork Boy w/slugga&Choppa 193 pts
Troop: Boyz: Nob, Big choppa, 19x Ork Boy w/slugga&Choppa, 10xOrk Boy w/shoota 187 pts
Troop: Boyz: Nob, Big choppa, 10x Ork Boy w/slugga&Choppa, 19xOrk Boy w/shoota 187 pts
Troop: Boyz: Nob, Power klaw, 29xOrk Boy w/shoota 193 pts
Ork Battallion(+5CP)
HQ: Bik Mek: Choppa, Kustom Force Field 75 pts
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump 62 pts
Elite: Mek Kun: Kustom Mega Kannon 42 pts
Elite: Mek Kun: Kustom Mega Kannon 42 pts
Elite: Mek Kun: Kustom Mega Kannon 42 pts
Total: 1500 pts
I'm actually cheesy bastard and didn't really tone down my list for casual figuring orks are already casual enough Thank god for movement trays which were bloody useful timing wise(3h hours).
Game 1. - Iron warrior gunline.
Spoiler:
He had 2 slaanesh predators, to hit buffer and sorcerer, scorpion FW artirelly tank from hell that was shooting total of 6d3 S6 -2 D2 shots hitting on 2+ if he got presience off(most of the time) rerolling 1's due to HQ. 6 terminators with termi HQ. Couple tac squads, 4 havocs. 10 cultists. That's...Lots of shooting! Escalating maelstrom card plus some eternal war mission I forgot.
I had to deploy on tough quarter for me with big building causing bit of a...roadblock to say the least. However I did get turn 1. So bad moons with max shootas were da jumped forward and everybody else basically rushed to objectives. I had 5 in control pretty much right off the bat or close next turn if need be. Shooting. Shootas blew out marine squadron. Haha! He btw was OK with me using dice app. And poor fellow had most amazing streak of 1's and 2's on save which vaporized his squad. First blood for orks. This left KMK's out of original target(I had wanted to aim for first blood rather than try 9" charge) so fired at predator but pretty inefficient.
His turn 1. Stayed put, blew out most of bad moons(CP used to keep morale) and all KMK's. I failed all 5++ and he even used strategem to shoot predator again. With tuesday game I have now failed like 24/26 inv saves. Stupid mek. I joked mek better make sure he dies or I'm going to kill him very painfully myself!
Turn 2: Bad moon remnants go in and charge predator. Evil suns(20/10 choppa/shoota) da jumped next to cultists. I basically start securing objectives. Evil sunz shot at chaos marines and charged(and killed) all the cultists.
He brings in all terminators to my left(he considered going for solo strike toward my weirdboys, both with 2 wounds having perilled, but opted not to do near suicide). Predator flees and my bad moons finished off. Evil sunz shot badly. Loooots of grots die to termi bolters and plasmas pester my boyz.
Turn 3. Objective grabbing, putting up grot screen toward terminators and 2 remaining boyz rushing toward there. Evil sunz charge and dent predator. He responds by lumbering forward, vaporizing tons of grots and some boyz. Charges final grot screen which goes "poof" and he tags my deth skulls. Whoops. Bit too close.
Turn 4: I would have liked to bring in my warboss but due to roadblock couldn't. Drat. So I actually FELL BACK and put in more grots hoping to delay(might not work. Damn all that bolters etc). Weirdboy moved in and smited d6 mortals(exact 10) causing 6 wounds to terminator lord. At this point I rushed to check did the 10 grot crew from KMK have weapons. No...Drat. Not even pistol! ARGH! Would have been funny to kill him. Damn +1W warlord trait. Sacrificed one weirdboy by da jumping him to objective next to his army to get VP.
So his turn. Lumbers forward with terminators, vaporizes grot screen and bunch of death skulls, charges in and kills poor blue boyz. Oh and warlord decided to go the hell out of and "advanced" behind corner of building out of LOS. Hahahaha! Run away!
Turn 5: Warboss leads goffs into a charge at the terminators. I shot at them killing 1, charged in. With warboss and goffs killed 2 more leaving 3 left.
He basically killed some stuff and then we rolled did game end. It did. I had like 40 models left(mostly grots) but won 13-8 in vp's. Phew.
Game 2: Shooty blood angels(no that's not a typo) with knight.
Having seen those metal/blue marines with lots of guns in there I figured iron hands or ultramarines. Then I checked list and saw blood angels. Checked no slamquinus. No(Well this WAS casual tournament). Was like woot? Shooty blood angels. Not a sight you see often.
Scenario was very bad for me. Start 1 card, then turn 2 card per objective. Kill points...Ugh.
Turn 1: Knight advanced slightly keeping 1 KMK out of range. Used descend of angels to send jump packers to my rear to shoot weirdboy. Whoops. Forgot that one. Not seeing jump packing character thought I was safe. Forgot those can use it too...Drat. Shooting wasn't too bad as KMK finally started to work but weirdboy did die.
I respond moving forward to get objective 1(which he also had). I maybe screwed up and sent bad moons to deal with that 3 jump packers. KMK's tried at knight but 4++ kept unhurt. Not that he even needed 4++...5++ was enough. Other KMK blew out jump packer. Shootas took down other. Charge from bad moons caused just 1 wound though. Drat. In hindsight as opponent noted should have used KMK's to deal with them rather than worry about knight.
Turn 2: He got bunch of cards related to objective 1 so rushed there with knight. Shooting still fairly light overall but 1 KMK did die. My turn I TOO got like 2 cards for objective 1....Sheesh. It was like 2-3 cards per side dealing with that. Knight charged in killing tons of grots.
My turn. I screwed up HUGE. I fell back with grots from knights. Problem is I only fell back 1"...Meanwhile I got 2 cards related to objective 4 on his backline so another mistake likely and sent evil sunz there. Failed the charge though and they were killed next turn. On h2h phase knight heroic intervened vs grots and stomped them opening up hole to my boyz...Whoops.
Turn 3: Charge into boyz, kill tons. Shoot lots as well. Evil sunz died.
I retreated with survivors from knights, tried shooting, charged with goffs and warboss. Dented finally it(Go warboss!) but still 14 wounds left.
Turn 4: He fell back from combat and prepared to blow my weirdboy(he had witchhunt objective) which he did with ease as well as runtherd. Lots of orks died left and right.
I fell back with warboss and goffs hoping to keep them alive.
Turn 5: He surprised me and didn't go for objective with knight and instead went and charged my warboss after shooting tons of grots. Careless there. I assumed he wanted "control 3 objective" card more than my warlord so had killed goffs that would have prevented. Figured force him to abandon objective if he wants to get goffs would be enough. Whoops.
I was basically just running stuff out of combat and hide.
Turn 6: Kill some more stuff. Game ends.
Before kill points it was like 15-10. With kill points(I had only killed 2 complete units...) it was 0-20 loss for me. Ouch.
All that objective 1 was bad for me maybe. That was worth tons of vp's so wasn't feeling giving it up but that turned into slaughter house...Then deployment mistake, bad moon mistake and mistaken da jump with evil sunz. Also maybe should have used mob up rule with small grot squads...
Game 3. Grey knights. 26 models vs 243! More than 9 to 1!
Spoiler:
So he had 2 special characters, some banner bearer(SC?) who was warlord. 3 basic troop squads, 4 flamer squad(ouch), dreadnought with lascannons and missile, flier of some kind. Very...tame army indeed. Even for casual tournament this was super soft.
For scenario 3 pts per objective in the end, 1 card and then turn 2 1 per objective, no kill points. Perfect for me. Deployment I had again hard time due to huge building. Partially my fault. Went for objectives rather than easy movement. Didn't get turn 1 this time. First rolls were 2-1 so tie due to +1 and then he rolled 6. Ah well.
Turn 1:
Anyway he flew closer and brought 2 characters from DZ to edge of his DZ(guess he deep struck there just in case to avoid sniping). Worst was his flamer squad was bit exposed from one angle...As was one basic squad. Shooting killed like 4 orks as KMK finally started working blocking lascannons(helped by lousy to hit and wound rolls).
I da jumped bad moons again toward basic squad that had rushed to objective 1 he had and I had AGAIN got as well. What's up with objective 1's? Shooting. 2 KMK had LOS to flamer squad and blew them right away taking MW each. Final KMK hadn't had LOS anyway so shot at the basic squad near bad moons. However 6 shots resulted in nothing. No hits, no MW's. Weird shot. Bad moons shot 1 dead but failed the charge.
Turn 2: He brings in 2 more squads from deep strike toward bad moons. His flyer was in bit trouble having to use gate of infinity to get him out of there(otherwise I Could have literally caused him to crash and burn due to no place to move...) so went to his rear. Shooting vaporized 29 bad moons leaving just nob. I used CP to keep him alive.
My turn. I got nice set of objectives so went ahead already. Psychic I sent up evil sunz to his rear but this time it was more sensible I think than last. IF I can charge that's a) prevent defend objective for him b) prevent dread from shooting c) force him to split attention. So shooting I killed all but 1 from basic squad near objective 1 with my bad moon nob next. I opted to not shoot more to ensure I can get charge and get that secure 1. Evil sunz fired at dreadnought and caused whopping 3 wounds. Charge. Evil suns charge succesfully dreadnought. Bad moon nob charges but takes 2 hits from 4 shots in overwatch. 2 wounds. Crap. Luckily I rolled 6 and killed him in h2h. Struct there first to make damned sure intercept doesn't get him. Objective mine. And evil sunz killed dreadnought as well. Good.
Turn 3: He goes for "nothing to do but go for glory" and was about to head for goffs and dethskulls and then...Changes mind and goes toward evil sunz. IMO this was mistake on his part. Flier moves, is teleported back, shoots. Basically he blew tons of evil sunz but here I was cunning and took up entire front of my unit. Albeit this took out most of my choppas AND my nob but this made him harder to charge(6" and 9" and all 3 solo's were over 12"...). Albeit the 2 troop units got in but they didn't do much and I started grinding them down.
My turn. Due to evil sunz situation his characters were open for shooting! KMK's killed his warlord without too much of an effort. Hah! There was also 1 character behind building that hadn't went toward evil sunz. Some sort of SC's. He was there holding objective. I had also the "control center" so if I wanted it I had to kill him. 30 grots teleported next to him as well shooting for wound or two. Goffs advanced and charged him. Basically killed him right away without too much of a trouble. THEN he let out know he now gets to strike ANYWAY. 5 attacks hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ getting extra attacks on successes and then with strategem FIGHT AGAIN. After dying he in otherwords sliced 12 goffs...Whoops. Well good trade off but that's not what you often see! Oh and evil sunz finished all but 1 grey knight.
Turn 4: His big SC terminator moves in and charges deth skulls. Flier moved next to my warboss(whoops) and killed him with twin short range lascannons. Well this was going so well didn't even feel bad about losing him(though had been looking up for duel vs his big SC. Though not 1 on 1! With lots of boyz in support ). Oh and that lone grey knight vs evil sunz teleported to my rear and charged one KMK. And sliced several dethskulls suffering wound or two.
My turn. I smited for 6 wounds, KMK fell back, other killed the GK, other shot at flier leaving it with 3 wounds. 30 grots that had just been wandering around not having anything to actually DO fired and caused yet another...Haha. That's just adding insult to injury. Goff mob charged vs his SC but not much but dethskulls put him off. With just flier left wipeout.
So there. 3 games, one minor victory, 0-20(But not wipeout) and 20-0. 13/20 for painting. 46/80 pts in other words. Seeing my usual record is like 13-15 pts painting included way over average!
But exhausting physically. I had no time to relax during turns and mid games I was busy setting up models on movement trays! GOOD thing was though I was among fastest tables every round I had almost hour left generally. Opponents were generally relaxed so weren't oohming and aahming and thinking super long. Biggest exception was game 2 though even he was fairly relaxed but hey when I said "don't bother too carefully measuring. You can put them so they can shoot" and he still measured them to exact spot and even so that 1 couldn't shoot at him. I would have been fine just put them there roughly and shoot for sake of speed.
Also all opponents were OK for using dice app for rolling big batches which was huge time saver. Combined with movement trays and the fact my turns were generally fairly low on shooting/h2h so that helped. And judges were wondering if I could play games in time Haha. With time to spare!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: Just paint grots all colors. They'll fit all clans.
Automatically Appended Next Post: no one would ever care.
And how you then separate grot unit A from grot unit B? That's the issue. Not that they are colour coded into 1 unit(they are already clan neutral colour so can be used for all clans...) but it's "bit" different do you have goff grots or dethskull grots don't you think? One gets extra attacks in h2h, one gets 6++.
Problem isn't that grots are colour coded to 1 clan. Problem is how to separate 2 identical looking grots with different rules...Until that works quick&easy for BOTH players they will actually be played clanless. No clan bonus, no warlord keeping order, no nothing. That's the ONLY fair solution. Until they can be identified with one quick look they won't benefit from clan rules(including warboss). Anything other would be me being a TFG jerk.
flandarz wrote: With Dakkax3, do ya'll think Flash Gitz (backed by Runts and Badrukk) will be more viable?
I do. 2 sets of reroll available as well as exploding 6's and their show off rule. Should be quite good. The only issue is making sure they have a target or two and not getting them killed before they get to shoot a few times. In fairness I have used them once, Mob of 5 with runts that time. they did very well all game against Space wolves last year.
I own 15 in total now, after that game I was sold on them. They'll be more exciting now.
BTW something that seemed to work for me nicely this time was what I had been planning to try. Columns rather than lines. Rather than units deploying maximizing frontage with others on side or if no room behind deploy them narrow(so with my movement trays generally 10 boyz in rough skirmish line with maybe 4-5 orks wide and then rest stacked behind).
Solved a lot of "one unit gets wiped and next is too far to threaten anything".
Others probably figured this out long time ago Took me this long.
Regarding the issue with grots and clans (and boys & clans, as well) it could be a simple fix to make some banner holders / marker models for the units (simply swap them out to keep them on the board, don't use anyone special like a RL or a Nob) so you can announce that your unit of yellow-armoured orks are in fact goffs, ergo the goff banner one of them is waving.
it could easily be made from the (now defunct) bosspole, with minimal model impact - just add it to one of the models. keen converters could magnetise them, even, so each unit has one boy who carries a clan glyph. Job done.
flandarz wrote: With Dakkax3, do ya'll think Flash Gitz (backed by Runts and Badrukk) will be more viable?
In my opinion...no, unless they seriously change the stats on them. Badrukkz ability is already in the released Klan Traits, rerolling 1s. the only benefit they get right now is the exploding 6s and grot shields if that turns out to be a thing. So maybe if Badrukk gave +1 BS instead of rerolling 1s and then you can use those ammo runtz to reroll 2s it turns them into a rerolling all failed to hit scenario that degrades as you lose runtz. But even then you still need a pretty hefty points decrease because 27pts for what is equivalent (worse) then a Space marine with a Plasma gun isn't good. btw I say worse because to get the same benefits as a Marine you need to buy the runtz which runs their cost to 31pts, then you need to buy the Grot squad to eat those bullets because a 6+ to save isn't going to cut it so that is another 40-120pts, basically that 10 strong flashgit squad quickly spirals out of control.
I think the issue with the paint scheme thing is that, unlike with, say, Space Marine Chapters or Eldar Craftworlds, Ork armies have always previously comprised Orks from several, if not all, the Clans (at least as per the background). As such, there are potentially a lot of people who are going to find themselves without a workable army (or at least one that can’t take advantage of clan traits) once the new Codex rolls round. I’m still crossing my fingers that maybe we’ll get some sort of special rule on army composition that takes this into account (much like how the DEldar got their “CPs for 3 patrols” rule).
Fairly unsurprising except for battlewagon. What purpose that is being used for...
For leaving the enemy wondering why its there then striking why they are still confused?
For generating sympathy and then taking ruthless advantage?
For the sake of doing something unexpected?
For the simple reason its fits into the carry case?
the only time I take out my battlewagons is on the occasion I know my opponent is going to try and list tailor It is so much fun to watch their jaw drop when you plop a bunch of T8 models on the table instead of the 200 ork boyz he was expecting....what's that? you brought 17 flamers to the game? weird, to bad.
The last time I did that I brought 3 Battlewagonz 6 KMK gunz and Ghaz. My opponent brought anti-infantry weapons for days and he was so ticked off when my wagonz just drove straight into his units and dropped everyone off into CC range
In my opinion...no, unless they seriously change the stats on them. Badrukkz ability is already in the released Klan Traits, rerolling 1s. the only benefit they get right now is the exploding 6s and grot shields if that turns out to be a thing. So maybe if Badrukk gave +1 BS instead of rerolling 1s and then you can use those ammo runtz to reroll 2s it turns them into a rerolling all failed to hit scenario that degrades as you lose runtz. But even then you still need a pretty hefty points decrease because 27pts for what is equivalent (worse) then a Space marine with a Plasma gun isn't good. btw I say worse because to get the same benefits as a Marine you need to buy the runtz which runs their cost to 31pts, then you need to buy the Grot squad to eat those bullets because a 6+ to save isn't going to cut it so that is another 40-120pts, basically that 10 strong flashgit squad quickly spirals out of control.
Yeah. They're quite expensive. When you can grab like 8 Lootas with better range and damage potential for the same survivability (if you ignore the increased size giving a better chance of making it through a volley of attacks), for the cost of 5 Gitz, it definitely doesn't make them an attractive option. Might be worthwhile if they drop Snazzgunz to Assault, so they don't lose out on their BS for moving into range though.
Edit: I guess you could load em onto a Chinork to drop em next to some elite Infantry without having to suffer a Move penalty (and to slightly increase survivability), but still seems pretty expensive for less shots than you'd get from a Boy Blob you Jump'd in.
tneva82 wrote: BTW something that seemed to work for me nicely this time was what I had been planning to try. Columns rather than lines. Rather than units deploying maximizing frontage with others on side or if no room behind deploy them narrow(so with my movement trays generally 10 boyz in rough skirmish line with maybe 4-5 orks wide and then rest stacked behind).
Solved a lot of "one unit gets wiped and next is too far to threaten anything".
Others probably figured this out long time ago Took me this long.
Removing from the back this edition is strong, I just lost a game this weekend where I messed this exact technique up, I went into a narrow place deployed 6x5 and my boyz went in one group at a time in three turns and got destroyed.
It's important to remember you can deploy in 3x10 columns and pull from the back.
On a seperate note, I did win one game this weekend with this list
Boyz [13 PL, 193pts] . Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz [13 PL, 193pts] . Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz [13 PL, 193pts] . Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz [13 PL, 193pts] . Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Shoota
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
++ Total: [113 PL, 2000pts] ++
Created with [url=https://battlescribe.net]BattleScribe
I won't pretend I did anything skilled, I seized the initiative and rolled great dice turn 1&2. Got a concede on turn 3, neva happens. Shoutout to Big Mek on bike with KFF for some sweet saves, Ramshackle roll on truklz turning up more then once this game, making a 9 inch Da Jump assault turn 2, and for tankbustas shooting more then they should turn one and two.
My opponent was kind enough to let me use the Goff clan trait since I brought Ghaz'khull. Let's hope Ghaz isn't stuck being Goff or he might not make it to any lists post codex, assuming the other clans are better. More attacks on a six has nothing on more movement or a save :/
tneva82 wrote: BTW something that seemed to work for me nicely this time was what I had been planning to try. Columns rather than lines. Rather than units deploying maximizing frontage with others on side or if no room behind deploy them narrow(so with my movement trays generally 10 boyz in rough skirmish line with maybe 4-5 orks wide and then rest stacked behind).
Solved a lot of "one unit gets wiped and next is too far to threaten anything".
Others probably figured this out long time ago Took me this long.
Removing from the back this edition is strong, I just lost a game this weekend where I messed this exact technique up, I went into a narrow place deployed 6x5 and my boyz went in one group at a time in three turns and got destroyed.
Yep. Pulling from the back is effectively extra movement. The center of the unit (especially if they are in a line) moves forward with every boy killed.
tneva82 wrote: Fairly unsurprising except for battlewagon. What purpose that is being used for...
The battlewagon had unit of boyz and a bunch characters inside to both protect them and minimize drops. Both appearances were from the same player playing almost the same list.
I kinda figure each detachment is going be be Klan Locked. select detachment then select klan. then select other detachment select other klan.
and if not i will probably play it that way. makes it super easy in your head when you know what units are in which detachment.
i almost always have all my boyz in my battalion detachment, then run either a spearhead or a vanguard. so i will likely make the detachment full of models that benefit from a klan trait and make it that klan.
in my head thats a easy way to compartmentalize and control who gets what rules.
I got to play a game using Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!. FLGS has a narrative campaign running and the organiser gave me the okay to use it pre-codex. Definitely not a competitive match and the game mode was a bit of a goofy homebrew. The game mode was my opponent defending objectives, I had no deployment zone and had to roll for reserves, where infantry deepstriked and everything else entered on a board edge. We weren't told in advance so my list didn't cater for it.
Can definitely say I felt the change. Shooting actually felt like it mattered! Shoota boyz felt like a more valid swap with choppa boyz. I tried out Flash Gitz as well, they were very killy with the ammo runt re-rolls and bonus attacks. They're still overpriced considering you end up paying 50-60 ppm when you factor in the transport for them to not get deleted turn 1. Kustom mega-kannons are straight up better, as expected. Warboss on warbike also posed a minor threat to infantry with his dakka too.
Next weeks game is either 750 doubles or 1500 solo, I'm planning on making lists for both that have a mix of other shooty units to get a feel for them. I've got some WIP Lootas that I'll experiment with, and probably some variant of a battlewagon.
Played a casual 2k game against a pal. I fielded a Warboss with Squig and Headwoppa's Killchoppa, 3 Weirdboys, 2 Big Meks with KFF and Oil Grots, 3 5-man Lootas, 3 30-man Boyz (14 Slugga, 15 Shoota, 1 Nob with Slugga), and 2 Gorkanauts in a Battalion, Supreme Command, and Spearhead. He ran Tau. Multiple Pathfinders, Fireblades, 3 9-man Sniper Drones, a couple Coldstars... I forget what all he had, but he was focused on Markerlights, Tau Sept, and TGG. I got slaughtered. I concedes at the end of Turn 3, with all Boy Mobs wiped, 2 Weirdboyz killed, and a Gork exploded which killed both Meks. I think I managed to whittle down some of his Fire Warriors and Pathfinders and killed a couple Coldstars, but I failed 2 charges after separate Da Jumps, after surviving Overwatch, and that was basically the end. Orkz can't beat Tau at the ranged game.
The Lootas actually performed well, so that's a plus.
He'd probably disagree. Hahaha! He loves to complain about how overpriced and underpowered Tau are. He usually runs almost exclusively Suits and Vehicles, so this was his attempt at "horde" style playing.
I think he usually runs Coldstars, Broadsides, and... some flying vehicles. He tends to prefer high Wound, Move, and 2/3+ Save Models over infantry. First game I played against him, he only fielded like 5 models.
flandarz wrote: I think he usually runs Coldstars, Broadsides, and... some flying vehicles. He tends to prefer high Wound, Move, and 2/3+ Save Models over infantry. First game I played against him, he only fielded like 5 models.
Hopefully he'll go back to that 5-model list, after we get our codex. You can return the slaughter.
flandarz wrote: Hahaha! Maybe. Honestly, if I'd made those easy 9" charges, the whole game could have turned around. Just can't expect to beat Tau at the ranged game.
Easy? Slightly under 50% odds...25% for both to fail
Selective memory. Odds are slightly below 50% for one charge(was it like 48%) so failing 2 is about 25%(slightly less). Annoying but not THAT unreasonable. That's btw why I have stopped relying on da jump charge. I don't neccessarily even try that but instead throw in grots or send in boyz with many shootas to at least shoot in case they don't charge and generally assume any unit da jumped will die, half the time without even making the charge. Bigger usage than charge for da jump is actually fasten the general advance as terrain and huge numbers generally mean some units are tagging behind.
Charge is just too unreliable to rely on. Well until you bring in codex evil sunz boyz that is. Evil sunz. Master of ambush!
flandarz wrote: He'd probably disagree. Hahaha! He loves to complain about how overpriced and underpowered Tau are. He usually runs almost exclusively Suits and Vehicles, so this was his attempt at "horde" style playing.
It's tricky, because against a lot of armies he's probably right. But it just so happens that the strengths the tau DO have (long range high strength but low AP weapons, crazy overwatch) are PERFECT for killing orks. I could see Tau struggling vs marines, gaurd, eldar, and feeling pretty underpowered. But against orks, they're going to consistently wreck us.
Oi youz Gitz! This upcoming Friday I have a 3K game against a friend's Dark Angels and he is being gracious enough to let me borrow his Orks as I'm holding off purchasing anything until the Codex drops. We are going to use this game to test out the new Dakka Dakka rule that has been confirmed by GW for both of us and personally for me to test out some units I'm interested in running already.
I've built the core of my list around an Evil Suns theme as they are the Klan I am most interested in running. Since this will be my very first game with Orks in 8th edition I'd appreciate you guys letting me know what you guys think and thanks for the feedback!
Gonna run a little game against another pal of mine. He likes Nidz. Usually runs a couple Flyrants, with GS's, Termies, and Hiveguard rounding things up. I'll be running something pretty close to my normal list, though I've swapped the Mek Gunz for Lootas.
Edit: For clarity, I'm gonna Da Jump two of the Blobs close to his units while Footsloggin' Ghaz, Grotsnik, Buzzgob, the Wierdboyz, and the last Boyz Blob towards his lines. The Lootas and Big Mek will hang out towards the back of the deployment zone. I'll drop in the Kommandos where I need back-up, and the Stormboyz are gonna be hunting Objectives.
I might trim the Kommandos to one squad of 15, run the Lootas 15, 9, and 6 so you can mob up the 15 and 9 squad and reroll the number of shots when it is bad, and maybe cut the Stormboyz for more boyz. Maybe don't mix sluggas and shootas.
Also, you can only jump one unit a turn, so think more in terms of jumping one unit of shoota boyz to hand out lead and hopefully you make the assault.
I fear for a list that doesn't have KMK or Tankbustas
Rismonite wrote: I might trim the Kommandos to one squad of 15, run the Lootas 15, 9, and 6 so you can mob up the 15 and 9 squad and reroll the number of shots when it is bad, and maybe cut the Stormboyz for more boyz. Maybe don't mix sluggas and shootas.
Also, you can only jump one unit a turn, so think more in terms of jumping one unit of shoota boyz to hand out lead and hopefully you make the assault.
I fear for a list that doesn't have KMK or Tankbustas
I had considered dropped a squad of Kommandos and putting in Tankbustas, but he's running Nids. No vehicles, so no rerolls. Since I needed 3 Elites to fill out the Vanguard, 2 Kommandos was as good a choice as any. I like the Banner Nob, but I've rarely been able to put him to good use, and I got the Mad Doc to run FnPs and Healz for Ghaz, so didn't see much point in throwing in another Painboy.
I might do that with the Lootas, actually. Maybe run then 15/9, then drop the 6 for some KMKs. I DO enjoy the Mek Gunz; I just wish they had Loota Range.
Yeah. I've also seen some limited success with Stormboyz, but they work well for rushing into Objectives, or taking out his flying units, so I tend to keep at least a small group of em around.
I know I can only Da Jump once a turn. Not a huge deal, I'm just gonna jump em in different Turns. If I need to.
I've done solid units of Sluggas and Shootas, and this ratio usually seems about right. Gives me a little extra range and shots for the ranged game, while still giving me the Choppas for when I charge in. I can take casualties from the Shootas as I take Wounds too, without feeling like I'm taking a huge hit to CC effectiveness.
Edit: That said, I did take most of your advice. Dropped the Stormboyz. Improved the Kommandos to Max Size. Adjusted the Lootas to 15/9/8 (Mob Up Turn 1 and 2), and changed my Boyz to 2 Units of Sluggas and 1 of Shootas.
Okay will be facing necrons with single tesserract vault next week. Not much experience with necrons and zero against vault. What kind of a thing that is from ork point of view? Quick look at the rules indicate to me it seems to be mostly for MW dealer which means it shouldn't be TOO bad for orks...Correct?
It can be very annoying to deal with as it's pretty tough, can delete 1/3 of any squad and one-shot characters with fewer wounds like wierdboyz, meks and painboyz on a 4+. It also can spam mw against msu like nothing else.
koooaei wrote: It can be very annoying to deal with as it's pretty tough, can delete 1/3 of any squad and one-shot characters with fewer wounds like wierdboyz, meks and painboyz on a 4+. It also can spam mw against msu like nothing else.
Hmm. I will be using bit mechanized list so can be bit scary. Would you recommend ignoring it and go for others just accepting casualties or should I try to go for it? Not sure how I can deal with it though. Orks struggle even with leman russ shooting wise nevermind this(and besides with just 3 KMK and some shootas not much shooting anyway). H2h...well at least it's only T7 so I can wound on 5+ but still. 28W and 3+. That's a loooot of attacks that needs to come. Feels like trying to take one out might take so much effort rest of necrons will walk over objectives and my army!
You might think about adding some Big Meks with KFFs and some Painboyz to improve your survivability against it. Other than that, and I'm gonna assume it's got the Vehicle tag, Tankbustas will be beneficial, especially with either old or new Dakkax3.
flandarz wrote: You might think about adding some Big Meks with KFFs and some Painboyz to improve your survivability against it. Other than that, and I'm gonna assume it's got the Vehicle tag, Tankbustas will be beneficial, especially with either old or new Dakkax3.
Tesseract vault deals mostly mortal wounda as its main damage source so kff wont be much help unfortunately, especially if he runs vehicles.
It doesn't deal that much damage to vehicles usually. But it can be really tough to bring down with high toughness, wounds and 4++ that sometimes goes up to 3++.
Though, it's just a strong unit - nothing you can't overcome. Just a bit unusual. Use your brain and you'll be fine.
Pal of mine brought up a thought to me about how Dakkax3 will work with Lootas.
I think his argument is that because the rule says "make an additional hit roll against same target using the same weapon" and also "When fireing a weapon with randomly determined characteristics, any additional hit roles use the same CHARACTERISTICS as the hit roll that generated the additional hit roll"
His logic is thus
"Type is a characteristic, Lootas guns type is heavy d3
Special rule says you roll 1 d3 to determine the number of shots for whole unit.
Dakka dakka says if you roll a six with a weapon that uses a randomly determined characteristic (heavy d3) any hit rolls use the same characteristics as the hit roll that generated the additional hit roll
Every 6 a loota gets if he rolled 3 shots would be 3 more for each 6 roll it makes"
I am of the mind that we gain an additional hit for each of the natural 6's rolled and thats the end of that. The intent being they mean only to be using the strength damage and ap.
but i can see how the wording could lead some to argue that.
what do you guys think? Im not really a rules hound and dont really have a flair for picking out which parts of the rule interact with which other parts in rulebooks.
Dojo wrote: Pal of mine brought up a thought to me about how Dakkax3 will work with Lootas.
I think his argument is that because the rule says "make an additional hit roll against same target using the same weapon" and also "When fireing a weapon with randomly determined characteristics, any additional hit roles use the same CHARACTERISTICS as the hit roll that generated the additional hit roll"
His logic is thus
"Type is a characteristic, Lootas guns type is heavy d3
Special rule says you roll 1 d3 to determine the number of shots for whole unit.
Dakka dakka says if you roll a six with a weapon that uses a randomly determined characteristic (heavy d3) any hit rolls use the same characteristics as the hit roll that generated the additional hit roll
Every 6 a loota gets if he rolled 3 shots would be 3 more for each 6 roll it makes"
I am of the mind that we gain an additional hit for each of the natural 6's rolled and thats the end of that. The intent being they mean only to be using the strength damage and ap.
but i can see how the wording could lead some to argue that.
what do you guys think? Im not really a rules hound and dont really have a flair for picking out which parts of the rule interact with which other parts in rulebooks.
No, that can't be the case. I've stated it before but imagine a kill tank with a giga shoota. According to that logic if you make 1 hit roll of 6 you'll get to roll an additional 21ish(6d6) shots. That'd be ridiculous. It's in my mind cleary meant to be "if you roll a 6, you get to roll another die"
Yea your friend is wrong on the Lootas. Dakka says make an additional shooting attack. A shooting attack is one dice only. So an assault 2 weapon makes 2 shooting attacks.
You are correct in that the characteristics in the rule refer to the S, AP etc if they are modifiable.
karandrasss wrote: Why isn't there more Kustom Mega Kannon spam? They seem to have crazy damage output?
36e for 42pts model. Nuff said. Not many can afford the maximum 18 kmk's.
Right now the cost of 18 KMKs, brand new from the GW store is $990, which in the game is only 756pts. So they literally cost more then $1 a point , that is why nobody is spamming them, plus they aren't great in an Ork list. Please keep in mind I think they are wonderful models and pretty darn good, but in an Ork list atm the only way to be competitive is to spam boyz and storm boyz and bum rush up the field. Even though KMKs are good, they take away from more boyz and that unfortunately detracts from our main objective. Plus, with 4+ to hit and the plethora of -1 and -2 to hit modifiers in the game, they aren't that reliable, add to that their lower Toughness and lower Armor save compared to last edition and they are the epitome of "Glass Cannon", except their Cannon part isn't good enough to justify how quickly they melt under scrutiny.
karandrasss wrote: Why isn't there more Kustom Mega Kannon spam? They seem to have crazy damage output?
I ended last edition with 12. I am down to 3 or 4 now, I decided I like Smasha guns and Bubble chukkas.
Mek gunz cost too much, never buy more than you have to. Trade for them or get them second hand. Or put some one in debt to you and let them pay you in KMK's !
Kustom Mega Kannons are excellent and I wouldn't even describe them as glass cannons because they're fairly durable for their points. They're cheap, pack a punch, a full unit counts as a single deploment drop but they have to be targeted individually during the game and they come with hard-to-target easy-to-hide objective grabbers. Even with -1 to-hit opponents I find them incredibly useful. They're our best shooting unit without exception and, I would imagine, comparable to similar shooting units elsewhere in the game unlike our other options. They're well worth reducing the amount of Boyz in your list to take.
xlDuke wrote: Kustom Mega Kannons are excellent and I wouldn't even describe them as glass cannons because they're fairly durable for their points. They're cheap, pack a punch, a full unit counts as a single deploment drop but they have to be targeted individually during the game and they come with hard-to-target easy-to-hide objective grabbers. Even with -1 to-hit opponents I find them incredibly useful. They're our best shooting unit without exception and, I would imagine, comparable to similar shooting units elsewhere in the game unlike our other options. They're well worth reducing the amount of Boyz in your list to take.
T5 with a 5+ to save and 6 wounds isn't "Durable" especially since on rolls of 1 you are inflicting a Mortal wound to yourself, add in -1 to hit and its pretty likely you will lose at least 1 wound a turn. For their points they are good, but as I mentioned, at $55 a pop, you aren't likely to field too many, and since they are about the only multi-wound models worth taking at the moment they tend to draw a disproportionate amount of anti-tank fire which eats a lot of wounds quickly. Why blast an ork squad with 4 Lascannons and kill 2 or 3 Ork boyz (18pts) when you could just blast a Mek Gun and reliably kill it. So it doesn't draw fire away from the boyz that really matters as much as becomes good targets for the enemies heavier weapons.
I 100% agree they are hands down the best shooting unit in our index, but since they have zero synergy and no buffs to make them better at shooting they aren't as good compared to other factions units, like a Dev squad or a Predator backed by papa Smurf, or Tau units backed by markerlights and their plethora of rerolls and +1 shots etc.
xlDuke wrote: Kustom Mega Kannons are excellent and I wouldn't even describe them as glass cannons because they're fairly durable for their points. They're cheap, pack a punch, a full unit counts as a single deploment drop but they have to be targeted individually during the game and they come with hard-to-target easy-to-hide objective grabbers. Even with -1 to-hit opponents I find them incredibly useful. They're our best shooting unit without exception and, I would imagine, comparable to similar shooting units elsewhere in the game unlike our other options. They're well worth reducing the amount of Boyz in your list to take.
T5 with a 5+ to save and 6 wounds isn't "Durable" especially since on rolls of 1 you are inflicting a Mortal wound to yourself, add in -1 to hit and its pretty likely you will lose at least 1 wound a turn. For their points they are good, but as I mentioned, at $55 a pop, you aren't likely to field too many, and since they are about the only multi-wound models worth taking at the moment they tend to draw a disproportionate amount of anti-tank fire which eats a lot of wounds quickly. Why blast an ork squad with 4 Lascannons and kill 2 or 3 Ork boyz (18pts) when you could just blast a Mek Gun and reliably kill it. So it doesn't draw fire away from the boyz that really matters as much as becomes good targets for the enemies heavier weapons.
I 100% agree they are hands down the best shooting unit in our index, but since they have zero synergy and no buffs to make them better at shooting they aren't as good compared to other factions units, like a Dev squad or a Predator backed by papa Smurf, or Tau units backed by markerlights and their plethora of rerolls and +1 shots etc.
I'd say that for their low points cost they are more or less suitably durable in relation to their offense. They're certainly not as good as Boyz, neither are a significant amount of units in the game, but Boyz don't throw D6 S8 -3 AP D3 damage shots at 36" range. There are some things Boyz won't catch up to over the course of a game and some targets that ideally need softening up before the Boyz arrive. Vertus Praetors are the first unit that comes to mind, Boyz don't stand much of a chance against them but a battery of KMK can really do some damage.
Boyz and KMK are both cheap enough that you can have relatively large amounts of both in the same list. I find they complement each other well enough, in the context of our Index, that I'm happy to take them even if it degrades my usually beloved target saturation strategies.
I'm actually a bit concerned that they'll get nerfed a little in the Codex because they're a stand-out unit right now compared to our other, terrible, options.
xlDuke wrote: Kustom Mega Kannons are excellent and I wouldn't even describe them as glass cannons because they're fairly durable for their points. They're cheap, pack a punch, a full unit counts as a single deploment drop but they have to be targeted individually during the game and they come with hard-to-target easy-to-hide objective grabbers. Even with -1 to-hit opponents I find them incredibly useful. They're our best shooting unit without exception and, I would imagine, comparable to similar shooting units elsewhere in the game unlike our other options. They're well worth reducing the amount of Boyz in your list to take.
T5 with a 5+ to save and 6 wounds isn't "Durable" especially since on rolls of 1 you are inflicting a Mortal wound to yourself, add in -1 to hit and its pretty likely you will lose at least 1 wound a turn. For their points they are good, but as I mentioned, at $55 a pop, you aren't likely to field too many, and since they are about the only multi-wound models worth taking at the moment they tend to draw a disproportionate amount of anti-tank fire which eats a lot of wounds quickly. Why blast an ork squad with 4 Lascannons and kill 2 or 3 Ork boyz (18pts) when you could just blast a Mek Gun and reliably kill it. So it doesn't draw fire away from the boyz that really matters as much as becomes good targets for the enemies heavier weapons.
I 100% agree they are hands down the best shooting unit in our index, but since they have zero synergy and no buffs to make them better at shooting they aren't as good compared to other factions units, like a Dev squad or a Predator backed by papa Smurf, or Tau units backed by markerlights and their plethora of rerolls and +1 shots etc.
I'd say that for their low points cost they are more or less suitably durable in relation to their offense. They're certainly not as good as Boyz, neither are a significant amount of units in the game, but Boyz don't throw D6 S8 -3 AP D3 damage shots at 36" range. There are some things Boyz won't catch up to over the course of a game and some targets that ideally need softening up before the Boyz arrive. Vertus Praetors are the first unit that comes to mind, Boyz don't stand much of a chance against them but a battery of KMK can really do some damage.
Boyz and KMK are both cheap enough that you can have relatively large amounts of both in the same list. I find they complement each other well enough, in the context of our Index, that I'm happy to take them even if it degrades my usually beloved target saturation strategies.
I'm actually a bit concerned that they'll get nerfed a little in the Codex because they're a stand-out unit right now compared to our other, terrible, options.
I can agree with those points, and I share that fear, I just hope to god someone who isn't anti-ork is writing our codex because while the KMK stands out in the ork dex, it is rather mediocre compared to other armies ranged units.
i have a very interesting view of the KMK. i love the model, and i really liked playing them in 7th. this has nothing to do with blast templates though, i am fine with those things gone, but the way mekguns could be fielded is gone.
back in 7th the bigmek with mega armor was great to attach to a unit of mekguns, because he gave them the ability to move and shoot (me personally found this very cool), the guns could ignore the limits of the 36inch range and get closer to those oh so common extreme range shooting units of other armies. and if they got charged a bigmek with power claw could do some damage (so the weren't completely useless in combat,just slightly better).
now the differences in 8th edition make them ....really boring to play.
yeah they can move and shoot now, but the -1 because of heavy does hurt their chances to shoot, and after running for a few games against extreme range shooting armies i am forced to move (especially if someone is behind los blocking terrain, there are many times i have to move them).
now they are a lot less tough. my feelings about this are mixed, i don't think they should've been toughness7 with 3up save, but i dont like that they are now 5up saved (im fine with toughness 5). yeah, maybe the big gun should be 5up because of its diminutive nature, but 5up on the really big "made of tons of scrap metal" model does not make sense, just like how the flashgitz are still bloody only 6up saves,despite having big heavy shoulder pads that have always represented "eavy armor" and thus a 4up save. now 4up saves arnt that awesome with the proliferation of -1ap, but its the thought that counts. heck, the mek gun is technically a vehicle and no other ork vehicle is 5up save!
they are now forced to split into separate squads. im not that much of a fan of this. yeah sure it makes them more durable because it forces the enemy to split their fire etc etc, but moving/shooting each model by itself and trying to remember what you have moved/shot and what you haven't becomes difficult,especially when you run 18 of them (i have run 18 of them before, and its boring for me and tedious to keep track of 36 separate units if you count the crew). when i shoot at someone i ask the opponent if i can do the shooting in groups (i still have to roll their shots separately but ill declare what they shoot at it in groups) because i don't really like shooting everything separately like we can. also if we happen to get cool aoe shooting buffs from characters or buildings or stratagems then its very difficult for more then 4 guns to get the benefit at all (looking at the rumors of the mekshop).
in the end its boring for me to play them and its even more irritating for my opponents to fight them. it has soured my excitement for a unit i really liked in 7th.
For me, the KMKs have been amazing. I play with five of them and I usually end a game with five on the table. I suppose the reason being in my list I run two big blobs and a smaller blob of boys, two big units and a smaller unit of stormboys, Zhadsnark and three dakka jets so my opponent usually has a lot more to worry about than Kannons. I aim to get as many t1 charges off as possible to shut down shooting and take out infantry. If an opponent does decide to go after them, fine, my jets and boys are being left alone for a turn.
I’ve had great success with this list, oh and Obviously have a weird boy for da jump too.
xlDuke wrote: Kustom Mega Kannons are excellent and I wouldn't even describe them as glass cannons because they're fairly durable for their points. They're cheap, pack a punch, a full unit counts as a single deploment drop but they have to be targeted individually during the game and they come with hard-to-target easy-to-hide objective grabbers. Even with -1 to-hit opponents I find them incredibly useful. They're our best shooting unit without exception and, I would imagine, comparable to similar shooting units elsewhere in the game unlike our other options. They're well worth reducing the amount of Boyz in your list to take.
T5 with a 5+ to save and 6 wounds isn't "Durable" especially since on rolls of 1 you are inflicting a Mortal wound to yourself, add in -1 to hit and its pretty likely you will lose at least 1 wound a turn. For their points they are good, but as I mentioned, at $55 a pop, you aren't likely to field too many, and since they are about the only multi-wound models worth taking at the moment they tend to draw a disproportionate amount of anti-tank fire which eats a lot of wounds quickly. Why blast an ork squad with 4 Lascannons and kill 2 or 3 Ork boyz (18pts) when you could just blast a Mek Gun and reliably kill it. So it doesn't draw fire away from the boyz that really matters as much as becomes good targets for the enemies heavier weapons.
I 100% agree they are hands down the best shooting unit in our index, but since they have zero synergy and no buffs to make them better at shooting they aren't as good compared to other factions units, like a Dev squad or a Predator backed by papa Smurf, or Tau units backed by markerlights and their plethora of rerolls and +1 shots etc.
Sounds btw you do same mistake I did. Self mortal wounds are max 1 per shooting so there's no "at least 1 wound a turn" really. If you shoot 6 times and roll 6 1's it's still just 1 mortal wound.
Still KMK's are pretty darn good. There's reason they are spammed tons for high competive tournaments. People don't invest 648€ for pretty models on high end tournaments.
geargutz wrote: i have a very interesting view of the KMK. i love the model, and i really liked playing them in 7th. this has nothing to do with blast templates though, i am fine with those things gone, but the way mekguns could be fielded is gone.
back in 7th the bigmek with mega armor was great to attach to a unit of mekguns, because he gave them the ability to move and shoot (me personally found this very cool), the guns could ignore the limits of the 36inch range and get closer to those oh so common extreme range shooting units of other armies. and if they got charged a bigmek with power claw could do some damage (so the weren't completely useless in combat,just slightly better).
now the differences in 8th edition make them ....really boring to play.
yeah they can move and shoot now, but the -1 because of heavy does hurt their chances to shoot, and after running for a few games against extreme range shooting armies i am forced to move (especially if someone is behind los blocking terrain, there are many times i have to move them).
now they are a lot less tough. my feelings about this are mixed, i don't think they should've been toughness7 with 3up save, but i dont like that they are now 5up saved (im fine with toughness 5). yeah, maybe the big gun should be 5up because of its diminutive nature, but 5up on the really big "made of tons of scrap metal" model does not make sense, just like how the flashgitz are still bloody only 6up saves,despite having big heavy shoulder pads that have always represented "eavy armor" and thus a 4up save. now 4up saves arnt that awesome with the proliferation of -1ap, but its the thought that counts. heck, the mek gun is technically a vehicle and no other ork vehicle is 5up save!
they are now forced to split into separate squads. im not that much of a fan of this. yeah sure it makes them more durable because it forces the enemy to split their fire etc etc, but moving/shooting each model by itself and trying to remember what you have moved/shot and what you haven't becomes difficult,especially when you run 18 of them (i have run 18 of them before, and its boring for me and tedious to keep track of 36 separate units if you count the crew). when i shoot at someone i ask the opponent if i can do the shooting in groups (i still have to roll their shots separately but ill declare what they shoot at it in groups) because i don't really like shooting everything separately like we can. also if we happen to get cool aoe shooting buffs from characters or buildings or stratagems then its very difficult for more then 4 guns to get the benefit at all (looking at the rumors of the mekshop).
in the end its boring for me to play them and its even more irritating for my opponents to fight them. it has soured my excitement for a unit i really liked in 7th.
Did you ever outflank them with Morgok?? I wanted to but never did find a way to make that make sense.
I field up to 10 in a list. They give us answers to Magnus or Motarian type units.
Also for the record there is no such thing as a high end tournament Ork list.
Did you ever outflank them with Morgok?? I wanted to but never did find a way to make that make sense.
I field up to 10 in a list. They give us answers to Magnus or Motarian type units.
Also for the record there is no such thing as a high end tournament Ork list.
eh, i never got to using the morgrok formation. you had to add alot of unnecessary HQs into your list just to use it and at that time in 7th i was more focused with building and fielding the dreadmob (that formation that had another unnecessary hq for a vehicle heavy list, the painboy). 7th edition did not work well with orks due to most of our formations being trash with unrealistic requirements, remember what the minimum we had to bring was just to run the orkurians (which had a benefit that already matched the ability of one of the required formations). i had fond memories of 7th, but i also understood alot of the issues with the edition and the codex creep that left us in the dust....this edition we might actually get a proper boost for once.
Well, even with deepstrike and a 3d6 charge, gorkonaught doesn't seem to be that great overall. It's barely gona eat half a knight and than will inevitebly die as it has no invul and just 18 wounds for 350 pts.
It might be fun to use but this kind of durability doesn't really hold up in a footslogging horde.
We'll see but it seems we're doomed to stick to one type of lists due to mechanics. Diversity in saves and toughness is really bad.
Well we don't know what other changes like costs gorkanaut gets. Though with the typical GW style of up prices for index, drop for codex to get people buy expect hefty point drops. This pattern is particularly obvious for vehicles which gorkanaut is...
tneva82 wrote: Well we don't know what other changes like costs gorkanaut gets. Though with the typical GW style of up prices for index, drop for codex to get people buy expect hefty point drops. This pattern is particularly obvious for vehicles which gorkanaut is...
yes, they are bound to do some benchmarking between Gorkonaut and the Knights since they are so close in release.
Even still why would I ever use a Gorkanaut to fight a fresh Imperial Knight? That sounds like a fool errand to me.
Step 1 Put a lot of damage on that knight, step 2 Charge that damaged knight with my undamaged Gorkanaut.
warhead01 wrote: Even still why would I ever use a Gorkanaut to fight a fresh Imperial Knight? That sounds like a fool errand to me.
Step 1 Put a lot of damage on that knight, step 2 Charge that damaged knight with my undamaged Gorkanaut.
Well average wouid be 12 with no buffs(not even reroll). With reduced ws for knight i think i'm confident on the fight then. Plus cheaper price likely too
If there is fight again that works for gorkanaut then it could possibly one shot knight with just overwatch. Cp hungry but unlike knights orks have lots cp and knights starts to hurt if they lose knight quickly. And still practically unhurt #orkanaut amidst knights
I have mixed feelings about KMKs. I'm a huge fan of the BS, S, AP, and Damage. They get a decent amount of shots and come with Grots who can wander around and take Objectives, or bubblewrap. On the other hand, 36" range is pretty abysmal, and 3" movement is practically standing still. I still think they're the best ranged option we have, and really good against tankier units, but I usually flip flop between whether the extra 12" of range on Lootas (and the ability to support them with a Painboy for FnPs) is worth the tradeoff on BS, S, and AP. On average, per point, you're gonna get about the same number of shots (maybe a bit more for Lootas, since Command Reroll is more efficient) and Damage, so those are the only real differences.
tneva82 wrote: Range I find issue only when going from short edge to short edge. Beyond 36" generally LOS is going to be bigger limiter than range.
Yeah if a player selects hammer and anvil then you get severely cripples on LoS requiring ordnance. Less room up front to place KMK and less vision down field.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Gorkanaut buffed with Waagh Banner can make quick work of knights but then again I don't exactly know what strategem shenanigans they can do. Hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ with the smash profile. D6 damage. average 2d6 roll is 7 so 21 damage average if all 6 hit and wound. It's still not realistically killing it in 1 turn.
tneva82 wrote: Range I find issue only when going from short edge to short edge. Beyond 36" generally LOS is going to be bigger limiter than range.
Yeah if a player selects hammer and anvil then you get severely cripples on LoS requiring ordnance. Less room up front to place KMK and less vision down field.
While it does hurt their effectiveness, I have found setting them up to cover a few close objectives that might be out in the open has worked well. the other play may well feed you a few units trying to get those objectives. Just try to avoid doing the same thing. In one game I think I killed 3 or 4 enemy units that way and took that objective with several units just before the game was over. I was pressing my strength on the other side of the table which kept my units from being deleted. Just some food for though. It will depend on what the foe is to how effective it will be. I was facing SoB's with lots of transports trying to rush me but they kept 4 large units in the back because I could use da Jump at any time. so they were never able to bring all their guns down on my mobs and trukks. IG would have been a completely different game though.
flandarz wrote: I have mixed feelings about KMKs. I'm a huge fan of the BS, S, AP, and Damage. They get a decent amount of shots and come with Grots who can wander around and take Objectives, or bubblewrap. On the other hand, 36" range is pretty abysmal, and 3" movement is practically standing still. I still think they're the best ranged option we have, and really good against tankier units, but I usually flip flop between whether the extra 12" of range on Lootas (and the ability to support them with a Painboy for FnPs) is worth the tradeoff on BS, S, and AP. On average, per point, you're gonna get about the same number of shots (maybe a bit more for Lootas, since Command Reroll is more efficient) and Damage, so those are the only real differences.
IMO what sets them apart from lootas (besides being roughly twice as efficient) is wounding vehicles on 3+ and the additional AP. The difference between S7 and S8 is huge, KMK are better at wounding all vehicles than lootas and they are better at wounding T4, which is a great number of basic infantry and all bikers and heavy armor infantry from T3 codices.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Range I find issue only when going from short edge to short edge. Beyond 36" generally LOS is going to be bigger limiter than range.
When lootas didn't suck yet, you could get great LOS on everything by putting them on top of a ruin. KMK can't do that because they are vehicles, but if lootas were to become viable again, this makes a huge difference.
That's how it was in the past as well. Worst case you would forgo a round of shooting to move them into position. If you have no LOS anyways, there is no harm in advancing. Since they can now still shoot even after moving, you lose even less for doing so.
Also note that infantry can move up any terrain now, so you could even sit on top of a rock or other LOS blocker, which they couldn't do in 5th.
In my experience there are very few board which have both no ruins with two upper floors and massive amounts of LOS blocking terrain.
Two story on board yes. Conveniently always at your dz with perfect los less so. That encourages static gunline bunkers giving them boost and that's hardly underpowered in 8th.
While we sometimes have those(never is bad as well as always) it's not quaranteed to have nice los block with 2 floors with no drawbacks. Sometimes you have another los block closeby so your lootas don't have clear los from that 2nd floor. Indeed ground floor could have better los!
Shrapnelbait wrote: With Dakkax3, does anyone think that taking 3 big shootas in boy squads would be viable? or on Kommandos?
I don't think big shootas will ever be worth any points unless you are looking for a place to sink your last few points. 3 shots without AP at BS5 is nothing to write home about, DakkaDakkaDakka or not.
The only way they could be useful is with a profile change (unlikely) or on units with special rules that buff shooting. I'd also use them in Freeboota armies since the extra range can help finishing off certain units to trigger their buff.
What would you guys consider to be the minimum number of a given model to make it worth including them in a list?
I understand that "more boyz is more betta" but I'm also converting stormboyz, tankbustas, and (eventually) kommandos rather slowly. I'd like to pick one type and focus on it until I have "enough" to make them worth fielding, but i also have modelling ADD and they all keep calling "build me! no, build ME!".
Of course if gitz or lootaz become viable models then I'll also have to start converting those, I'm assuming we'll need the codex drop to make accurate estimates of the minimum viable unit for those, though?
Along those lines, I only have 5 nobz... is there any reason to buy more? My tentative plan (if i fielded them at all) was to run 5nobz+5runts in a chinork, or throw them in a trukk with some characters.
Coh Magnussen wrote: What would you guys consider to be the minimum number of a given model to make it worth including them in a list?
I understand that "more boyz is more betta" but I'm also converting stormboyz, tankbustas, and (eventually) kommandos rather slowly. I'd like to pick one type and focus on it until I have "enough" to make them worth fielding, but i also have modelling ADD and they all keep calling "build me! no, build ME!".
Of course if gitz or lootaz become viable models then I'll also have to start converting those, I'm assuming we'll need the codex drop to make accurate estimates of the minimum viable unit for those, though?
Along those lines, I only have 5 nobz... is there any reason to buy more? My tentative plan (if i fielded them at all) was to run 5nobz+5runts in a chinork, or throw them in a trukk with some characters.
I think a lot of this comes down to you play style. I can't speak too much for nobz because I have only started using them as a unit this edition. I never even considered them like this even as far back as 3rd edition.
I have 16 or 17 with big choppas now and 10 to 12 with power Klaws as well. But I never upgrade my Boss Nobs in boys mobs any more.
I don't think you need 5 ammo runts, I think 3 will do it. Supported by a pain boy and maybe a weird boy or waaaagh banner. (Just depends on what you like to do and can make work.
For Gitz and lootas. I have 15 Gitz so far and am holding out till next year to decide about any more. For me, A small mob has been stronger than I had expected and put in a lot of work the few times I have used them I bought 10 more because of that good work and the Mob up Stratagem.
Lootas. Well I have probably 45 of them but am downsizing. Historically they haven't done enough to justify so many in any list. I don't seem to have much luck with them. Last edition I was fielding 3 or 4 mobs of 5 for the base cost of the unit and that seemed much more productive during games. This edition I have fielded 1 unit of 6 and that was ok. So I'd say 10 is probably a reasonable purchase. 15 might be fine as well.
Thanks, warhead. Sadly so far my "playstyle" is merely theoretical -- i don't have anywhere near a whole army yet. I'm thinking I need to finish a kill-team (use up some of those burna-bitz) then go back to work on the army so I can actually start playing something .
Shrapnelbait wrote: With Dakkax3, does anyone think that taking 3 big shootas in boy squads would be viable? or on Kommandos?
I don't think big shootas will ever be worth any points unless you are looking for a place to sink your last few points. 3 shots without AP at BS5 is nothing to write home about, DakkaDakkaDakka or not.
The only way they could be useful is with a profile change (unlikely) or on units with special rules that buff shooting. I'd also use them in Freeboota armies since the extra range can help finishing off certain units to trigger their buff.
Yeah, unfortunately, as is Big Shootas are worth 0 points like shootas, since they're a sidegrade at best and a tax at worst for vehicles like Trukks. They'd have to become Rapid Fire 3 to be worth the current points they are or gain -1 AP to at least do something against their targets.
I honestly see a lot of ork players suddenly becoming Snake Bite fans or My personal favorites Blood Axes. the others are kind of lackluster except maybe the Evil sunz if our Warbikes/koptas/buggies get a big boost in durability/damage output I can see them being a real threat with that +3inch movement.
DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA 
