So the Gorkanaut/Morkanaut isnt likely to get much worse.....right? I really like the model and want to get one but the rational side of me is saying to wait for the codex. But since its pretty meh/bad right now, even if it doesnt change at all it still would be nice to have one.
Without wanting to down your hopes, just because it gets better, doesn't mean it's good.
Best example would be Flash Gits - in 7th the have been vastly better than in 4th-6th(probably one of the worst units in the game at that time) and in 8th they are a lot better than ins 7th. Yet, they still aren't good enough.
Jidmah wrote: Without wanting to down your hopes, just because it gets better, doesn't mean it's good.
Best example would be Flash Gits - in 7th the have been vastly better than in 4th-6th(probably one of the worst units in the game at that time) and in 8th they are a lot better than ins 7th. Yet, they still aren't good enough.
What are you talking about? My Flash Gitz are always my best unit in the game! I mean who wouldn't want a MASSIVELY expensive infantry unit with a short ranged heavy weapon and a 6+ save?
As for taking a PK or a BC? I don't take either one anymore. A PK at 25pts last edition was worth taking because you could WRECK vehicles with it. This edition? even if you roll PERFECTLY your average nob will get 4 attacks (+1 for 20mob) 4 hits, 4wounds and 12 damage at the ABSOLUTE MOST! realistically, against a regular T7 3+ save vehicle though he will average 4 attacks, 3 hits 2 wounds and 4 damage with two 1/3rd chances to save 2 dmg so about a 50/50. A Big Choppa on the other hand will get 4 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds and only has -1 ap so a 50/50 of inflicting 2 damage. Basically neither is worth anything anymore against vehicles, against elite infantry they do ok, but you have Boyz that do the same thing anyway.
Basically GW needs to drastically buff PKs and BCs to make them worth taking, or make them so cheap as to make them auto-includes with limited purpose.
A 5 points big choppa and a p.klaw that deals D6 damage could be the needed fixes for those weapons IMHO. Big choppas cost 5 points in previous editions and now p.klaws are 50% cheaper that they used to be, so big choppas should definitely be cheaper than 7 points. I don't think they should become deadlier since we already have p.klaws and killsaws as better (and more expensive) close combat weapons. Big choppas should be the cheap but not trash option.
Billagio wrote: So the Gorkanaut/Morkanaut isnt likely to get much worse.....right? I really like the model and want to get one but the rational side of me is saying to wait for the codex. But since its pretty meh/bad right now, even if it doesnt change at all it still would be nice to have one.
I actually went on to ebay and picked up some unpainted pre-assembled one of each to hedge my bets against them getting better. Both were bought for less than retail so i'm happy either way.
I own 4 Gorkanauts and 2 Morkanauts. I've only had the chance to use a Gorkanaut once in a game last year. I was impressed.
With the stupid rule of 3 I plan to stick 3 in a list. More is always better than less. Morkanauts don't do it for me they have less attacks and the KFF doesn't makeup for that.
I have a list in mind 3 Gorkanauts and loads of Boys. Should be a face wrecking machine.
Assuming all of the involved models would become viable, Nauts would be a good match with battlewagons, since your opponent would have to handle multiple T8 threats at once, and the nauts aren't that much slower than wagons.
Blackie wrote: A 5 points big choppa and a p.klaw that deals D6 damage could be the needed fixes for those weapons IMHO. Big choppas cost 5 points in previous editions and now p.klaws are 50% cheaper that they used to be, so big choppas should definitely be cheaper than 7 points. I don't think they should become deadlier since we already have p.klaws and killsaws as better (and more expensive) close combat weapons. Big choppas should be the cheap but not trash option.
Sounds about right. PKs need some serious changes, D3 damage isn't cutting it. I think a number of our weapons options went up in price for no reason. Last edition Big Shootas AND Rokkitz were 5pts each and nobody thought that was OP, now Big Shootas are 6pts (nobody takes them unless required) and Rokkitz are 12pts (Nobody takes them except for Tankbustas and even then....meh) why? Why would they drastically increase the cost for our ranged options while at the same time nerfing our tried and true PowerKlaw? As it stands I don't take any of the above mentioned weapons, at most I take the relic Big Choppa on a warboss ONLY because it gives him mortal wound damage and saves me points on anything else practically. For big Shootas and Rokkitz....I regularly field 2 Big Shootas...on Ghaz.....that is it, for Rokkitz I don't field any. I miss the days where we would cram as many rokkitz into things as we could on the off chance they managed to hit something and do something.
Blackie wrote: A 5 points big choppa and a p.klaw that deals D6 damage could be the needed fixes for those weapons IMHO. Big choppas cost 5 points in previous editions and now p.klaws are 50% cheaper that they used to be, so big choppas should definitely be cheaper than 7 points. I don't think they should become deadlier since we already have p.klaws and killsaws as better (and more expensive) close combat weapons. Big choppas should be the cheap but not trash option.
Man, big choppas used to be trash when they were 5 points. For a 2 point increase, having flat -1 armor and 2 damage is huge.
That said, power swords went down to 3 points when they used to be 15.
Has anyone tried a true Dread Mob list? An by that I mean a full 9 Deff Dreads in a list with Big Mek/KFF support?
It seems most lists have 1-3 Deff Dreads and then several Kans and then rely more on boyz/grots.
Has anyone tried a list with 9 Deff Dreads, Big Meks, and Banner Nobs, for maximum effect?
2jollyrogers wrote: Has anyone tried a true Dread Mob list? An by that I mean a full 9 Deff Dreads in a list with Big Mek/KFF support?
It seems most lists have 1-3 Deff Dreads and then several Kans and then rely more on boyz/grots.
Has anyone tried a list with 9 Deff Dreads, Ghaz, Big Meks, Banner Nob, and Weirdboy for maximum effect?
My Dread Mob list is 9 kanz (3 big shootas, 3 rokkits, 3 KMBs), 3 dreads (2 with all klaws, 1 with scorchas), 3 KMKs, Gorkanaut, Morkanaut with KFF, 2 Big Meks w/ KFFs. Basically the two meks will ensure everything has a 5+ all the time when working with the morkanaut, as well as keep things repaired.
The Kanz are here for fodder- when they're getting shot at, my nauts aren't getting shot at. Every once in a while a rokkit will hit and shave some wounds off of something. If they get into close combat they can take out something flimsy since they only hit on a 5+. The dreads are... meh. The skorchas do pretty good work for stuff on levels my walkers can't get to. The other two dreads are nothing impressive. Six klaw attacks are surprisingly underwhelming at times, and that's [i]if/i] they get into combat.
The stars are the KMKs and the nauts. This thread has gone over time and time again why KMKs are great, so I'll skip that. The nauts are fantastic in shooting (by ork standards). Early off you can risk firing the kustom mega weapons from the morkanaut, and since they can move and shoot heavy weapons you'll get into position. They'll also wreck whatever you get them into combat with.
The biggest issue with this list, though, is that the kanz and dreads have horrible firepower, and are extremely slow. For this list to actually be good, they need to be both faster and have more dakka. Still cool as hell looking.
2jollyrogers wrote: Has anyone tried a true Dread Mob list? An by that I mean a full 9 Deff Dreads in a list with Big Mek/KFF support?
It seems most lists have 1-3 Deff Dreads and then several Kans and then rely more on boyz/grots.
Has anyone tried a list with 9 Deff Dreads, Big Meks, and Banner Nobs, for maximum effect?
Without having tried it, that list has less wounds than a list with mix kanz and dreads. Such lists tend to be wiped out by turn 2.
So just from napkin math, you will probably have lost every single dread before reaching combat.
Blackie wrote: A 5 points big choppa and a p.klaw that deals D6 damage could be the needed fixes for those weapons IMHO. Big choppas cost 5 points in previous editions and now p.klaws are 50% cheaper that they used to be, so big choppas should definitely be cheaper than 7 points. I don't think they should become deadlier since we already have p.klaws and killsaws as better (and more expensive) close combat weapons. Big choppas should be the cheap but not trash option.
Man, big choppas used to be trash when they were 5 points. For a 2 point increase, having flat -1 armor and 2 damage is huge.
That said, power swords went down to 3 points when they used to be 15.
It isn't huge at all. In previous editions big choppas could kill light vehicles quite easily and wound any infantry model that had a 4+ save. Now they do nothing against armored stuff unless you bring a full unit of dudes with big choppas.
In this edition I'd rather give my nobz a free choppa than a 7 points big choppa. Of course things are different if you want to equip a full unit of nobz but we also have to consider the single nob that leads units of kommandos, boyz, stormboyz or bikes. For those single nobz the big choppa is now trash. Armored stuff has too many wounds and saves to be seriously damaged by a single big choppa. In fact I used to give big choppas to boyz nobz quite often in 7th edition since I played MSU, now I only use big choppas for the cheapest warboss and for a full unit of nobz which is a shame.
I have some wants for the new dex:
1. I want to see an ork drop pod( rok)that could fit more than 10 boyz in it. Even if they had a rule where some died on 1s when they got out like when a vehicle explodes.
2. I want stormboyz to be able to deep strike. Even if they had to take like d3 mortals when they come in.
If the new deepstrike rules are permanent most deepstrike units like that aren’t that great anymore.
Its the reason why kommandos went from decent to almost useless.
I would rather just have a stratagem 1/3 CP that allows you to deep strike an ork (or 2)unit after deployment more then 9in away from an enemy unit. You can call it ork rok or tellyporta.
gungo wrote: If the new deepstrike rules are permanent most deepstrike units like that aren’t that great anymore.
Its the reason why kommandos went from decent to almost useless.
I would rather just have a stratagem 1/3 CP that allows you to deep strike an ork (or 2)unit after deployment more then 9in away from an enemy unit. You can call it ork rok or tellyporta.
I love how GW killed one of the 4ish good units we have in this edition right now. I used to bring 90 Kommandos in 6 units to my tournaments, now I bring 10 in 2 units and use them for Turn 3 objective grabs at most. Yet again orkz are playing another edition where we can't do anything without target saturation, and it has to be Infantry saturation because we don't have a vehicle worth a damn right now :(
gungo wrote: If the new deepstrike rules are permanent most deepstrike units like that aren’t that great anymore.
Its the reason why kommandos went from decent to almost useless.
I would rather just have a stratagem 1/3 CP that allows you to deep strike an ork (or 2)unit after deployment more then 9in away from an enemy unit. You can call it ork rok or tellyporta.
I love how GW killed one of the 4ish good units we have in this edition right now. I used to bring 90 Kommandos in 6 units to my tournaments, now I bring 10 in 2 units and use them for Turn 3 objective grabs at most. Yet again orkz are playing another edition where we can't do anything without target saturation, and it has to be Infantry saturation because we don't have a vehicle worth a damn right now :(
As painful as that is for us, we have to remember that our units don't function in a vacuum. That was not a rule aimed just at orks, it was a modification to all army lists to stop some of the alpha strike madness that decided a game on turn one. On the same track is power klaws, we can't have ours upgraded without powerfists and all the equivalents upgraded as well.
I'm not saying that we don't need improvements, cause we definitely do, but we will have to wait for the codex for that. Personally I'm all for seeing better units so that we can play either hordes or elite styles of play. Tyranids seemed to balance it pretty well, here's hoping we get similar treatment.
Shrapnelbait wrote: On the same track is power klaws, we can't have ours upgraded without powerfists and all the equivalents upgraded as well.
Nonsense. There is no reason at all for power klaws to be the same as power fists. All armies with power fists have plenty of range option to destroy vehicles, orks have always relied on PKs for that.
Orks need to be better in some things than other armies. We have been worse at everything for too long.
gungo wrote: If the new deepstrike rules are permanent most deepstrike units like that aren’t that great anymore.
Its the reason why kommandos went from decent to almost useless.
I would rather just have a stratagem 1/3 CP that allows you to deep strike an ork (or 2)unit after deployment more then 9in away from an enemy unit. You can call it ork rok or tellyporta.
I love how GW killed one of the 4ish good units we have in this edition right now. I used to bring 90 Kommandos in 6 units to my tournaments, now I bring 10 in 2 units and use them for Turn 3 objective grabs at most. Yet again orkz are playing another edition where we can't do anything without target saturation, and it has to be Infantry saturation because we don't have a vehicle worth a damn right now :(
As painful as that is for us, we have to remember that our units don't function in a vacuum. That was not a rule aimed just at orks, it was a modification to all army lists to stop some of the alpha strike madness that decided a game on turn one. On the same track is power klaws, we can't have ours upgraded without powerfists and all the equivalents upgraded as well.
I'm not saying that we don't need improvements, cause we definitely do, but we will have to wait for the codex for that. Personally I'm all for seeing better units so that we can play either hordes or elite styles of play. Tyranids seemed to balance it pretty well, here's hoping we get similar treatment.
True, but deep striking first turn ASSAULT units weren't the ones breaking the game, it was Alpha Strike SHOOTING deep strikers that was killing it, and still is for that matter. Now they shoot everything turn 1 from range and then turn 2 they deep strike and shoot the remainder.
Alpha strike assault was just about the ONLY way to make orkz competitive and by nerfing it across the board they killed one of the few good units we had left. The Codex is going to have to fix a lot of massive problems and that FAQ just added to the list.
I wonder if we might get something a little like the Tyranids treatment with similar weapons at different scales having different prices and stats (scything talons, monstrous scything talons, massive scything talons, etc.). Maybe we'll have a nob powerklaw that does d3 and a boss klaw or kustom klaw that does a flat 3.
I think that pricing some ranged weapons based on BS, like has been done with many armies, could go a long way towards fixing some weapons like rokkits and big gunz on BS 5+ models. It wouldn't fix everything though. At 0 points a Killkannon on a battlewagon would still be disappointingly un-killy and a KMK on a Morkanaut would still be a joke.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I think that pricing some ranged weapons based on BS, like has been done with many armies, could go a long way towards fixing some weapons like rokkits and big gunz on BS 5+ models.
I sent a detailed plea to GW on this one about 6 months ago...being respectful and courteous as always. I have no idea if 1 letter would impact their thinking, but I tried anyway.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I think that pricing some ranged weapons based on BS, like has been done with many armies, could go a long way towards fixing some weapons like rokkits and big gunz on BS 5+ models.
I sent a detailed plea to GW on this one about 6 months ago...being respectful and courteous as always. I have no idea if 1 letter would impact their thinking, but I tried anyway.
Pray to Mork.
I still haven't written any letters to GW with suggestions for Orks, other than a vague bit of "I hope battlewagons are viable" type of statement in the mostly pleasant letter I sent them along with a few models during that mostly joking campaign that was going on a while back.
Partly I haven't because I always think that the Ork codex must be just around the corner, and it hasn't been yet. The other thing I worry about is that if I put too much thought into fixes then I'll get too invested in those ideas and be disappointed when GW implements something different but equally good (or probably even better). There're lots of ways to fix the Battlewagon, IMO, so I'm trying not to get too fixated on one fix. I just hope they do something.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I think that pricing some ranged weapons based on BS, like has been done with many armies, could go a long way towards fixing some weapons like rokkits and big gunz on BS 5+ models.
I sent a detailed plea to GW on this one about 6 months ago...being respectful and courteous as always. I have no idea if 1 letter would impact their thinking, but I tried anyway.
Pray to Mork.
I still haven't written any letters to GW with suggestions for Orks, other than a vague bit of "I hope battlewagons are viable" type of statement in the mostly pleasant letter I sent them along with a few models during that mostly joking campaign that was going on a while back.
Partly I haven't because I always think that the Ork codex must be just around the corner, and it hasn't been yet. The other thing I worry about is that if I put too much thought into fixes then I'll get too invested in those ideas and be disappointed when GW implements something different but equally good (or probably even better). There're lots of ways to fix the Battlewagon, IMO, so I'm trying not to get too fixated on one fix. I just hope they do something.
Well see, hopefully their comment about our new codex coming next (or after SW) and "wanting it to be competitive" is true. I miss Battlewagon spam, was my favorite playstyle.
On another note, I noticed they got rid of the old big guns models on the GW Webstore, along with various old metal AM regiments (including Steel Legion). I wonder if it has anything to do with the Armageddon article in WD and our upcoming codex?
Billagio wrote: On another note, I noticed they got rid of the old big guns models on the GW Webstore, along with various old metal AM regiments (including Steel Legion). I wonder if it has anything to do with the Armageddon article in WD and our upcoming codex?
I hope they're coming out with a new kit for Big Gunz, and that they're not cutting the unit. Of course they could be dropping the model and keeping the unit, because GW isn't always consistent.
I like Big Gunz from a fluff perspective, so I use Kannons and Lobbas in most of my games. They don't seem to do very much. I think Kannons and maybe Zzap Gunz (which I haven't used yet) could become viable simply through things like stratagems, clan rules and some unit synergies. Lobbas need a decent point drop though, IMO. I'm
I really want to like 'nauts, but I find it hard to - their guns just don't gel together, at all.
Given that the only real use is in melee; you always want to be advancing. If you advance, it knocks out the ability to use heavy/rapid fire weapons, and forces you to hit on 6's with the assault weapons you CAN fire.
...and if you don't advance - you'll be long gone by the time you make it to melee (if ever); the only place where you can do reasonable damage.
Also, the Morkanaut losing 1 cc attack and other misc stats over the Gorkanaut, sucks.
Kannons were more potent weapons than missile launchers. They rolled on the Ordnance table for damage (meaning they were pretty likely to blow stuff up) and their frag shell was S5 instead of S4.
Zzap Gunz autohit, which was pretty cool. When I first read about them I imagined them firing an arc of electricity rather than a beam.
Lobbas we're pretty much the same as they are now.
Of course these guns were more fragile and tended to kill their own crews.
I'm fine with the kannon being pretty much a shorter-ranged missile launchers, but I also wouldn't mind if it regained some of it's punch.
Zzap Gunz I feel are kind of in a weird spot. They are actually not very good against tanks. Rolling high for strength when shooting tanks is actually a detriment, not a benefit most of the time. Rolling high for strength can be really good again models with invulnerable saves, but it's not reliable enough for that. I feel like the mortal wounds should be in addition to the regular damage instead of replacing it. Even so it would still be a worse weapon than a lascannon IMO.
I've noticed that a lot of the time when Ork players complain about our relatively high strength weapons not being very good against tanks people will say something like "[X] isn't supposed to be an anti-tank weapon it's an anti-MEQ weapon." Only they say that about every single one of our high-strength weapons.
Billagio wrote: On another note, I noticed they got rid of the old big guns models on the GW Webstore, along with various old metal AM regiments (including Steel Legion). I wonder if it has anything to do with the Armageddon article in WD and our upcoming codex?
I hope they're coming out with a new kit for Big Gunz, and that they're not cutting the unit. Of course they could be dropping the model and keeping the unit, because GW isn't always consistent.
I like Big Gunz from a fluff perspective, so I use Kannons and Lobbas in most of my games. They don't seem to do very much. I think Kannons and maybe Zzap Gunz (which I haven't used yet) could become viable simply through things like stratagems, clan rules and some unit synergies. Lobbas need a decent point drop though, IMO. I'm
I loved my lobbas in 7th, as they were the orks only snipers. It was really odd that such a random weapon would be called a sniper, but hey, orks...what can you do. I'd love to target HQ/bodyguard units, with the small blast...sometimes you'd get a hit on all of them.
Nowadays, with HQs untargetable, that's out, and the removal of blast makrers makes getting more than one hit rare. Still dirt-cheap, though, and I'd gladly pay a hefty point increase if they could actually get a decent number of high-damage hits.
Orks are all about the Dakka, and I feel like they need more artillery options like big guns to reflect that. Here's hoping GW is cooking some up for the new codex
Billagio wrote: On another note, I noticed they got rid of the old big guns models on the GW Webstore, along with various old metal AM regiments (including Steel Legion). I wonder if it has anything to do with the Armageddon article in WD and our upcoming codex?
I hope they're coming out with a new kit for Big Gunz, and that they're not cutting the unit. Of course they could be dropping the model and keeping the unit, because GW isn't always consistent.
I like Big Gunz from a fluff perspective, so I use Kannons and Lobbas in most of my games. They don't seem to do very much. I think Kannons and maybe Zzap Gunz (which I haven't used yet) could become viable simply through things like stratagems, clan rules and some unit synergies. Lobbas need a decent point drop though, IMO. I'm
I loved my lobbas in 7th, as they were the orks only snipers. It was really odd that such a random weapon would be called a sniper, but hey, orks...what can you do. I'd love to target HQ/bodyguard units, with the small blast...sometimes you'd get a hit on all of them.
Nowadays, with HQs untargetable, that's out, and the removal of blast makrers makes getting more than one hit rare. Still dirt-cheap, though, and I'd gladly pay a hefty point increase if they could actually get a decent number of high-damage hits.
While I love lobbas, you really have to face the reality that they are currently nothing but big shootas with better range and therefore not even remotely worth their points.
Lobbas in 7th being able to snipe was a freak accident caused by 7th terrible rules. However, their intended role has always been blowing up light infantry like guardsmen - they really need an AP value to return to their role under the current rules
fe40k wrote: I really want to like 'nauts, but I find it hard to - their guns just don't gel together, at all.
Given that the only real use is in melee; you always want to be advancing. If you advance, it knocks out the ability to use heavy/rapid fire weapons, and forces you to hit on 6's with the assault weapons you CAN fire.
...and if you don't advance - you'll be long gone by the time you make it to melee (if ever); the only place where you can do reasonable damage.
Also, the Morkanaut losing 1 cc attack and other misc stats over the Gorkanaut, sucks.
I get what you're saying- and I definitely think they're underpowered -but I think the key to making the guns work is the "Big and Stompy" rule. I advance my Gorkanaut forward like you said, trying to get into melee as soon as possible. But once I'm in, every turn after that I can step back, shoot, and charge in again. Your BS doesn't degrade (not that it could go much lower....) so even when he's hanging on with just a couple of wounds left, he's still dakkaing like the day he came off the assembly line.
I think the issue with the 'nauts is that GW really thought vehicles would be super durable this edition. They expected a Gorkanaut to survive 3 or 4 rounds of sustained fire, wading through battle, dealing INSANE damage in close combat. But that's not the way it played out, and they get taken off the board turn 1 or 2, and do nothing.
I think the issue with the 'nauts is that GW really thought vehicles would be super durable this edition. They expected a Gorkanaut to survive 3 or 4 rounds of sustained fire, wading through battle, dealing INSANE damage in close combat. But that's not the way it played out, and they get taken off the board turn 1 or 2, and do nothing.
Agreed, on paper they look durable. But I just watched a batrep on miniwargaming where it (morkanaut with KFF) basically got killed in a turn of shooting from 3 kitted out GSC leman russes (think it was 2 LRBTs and a demolisher, all 3 had lascannon and 1 had plasma sponsons). Granted its a lot of firepower to absorb and it limped ahead with 5ish wounds left, but still it was 1 turn of shooting from 3 units.
Still, rule of cool... and it looked damn imposing and cool walking across the field
Agreed, on paper they look durable. But I just watched a batrep on miniwargaming where it (morkanaut with KFF) basically got killed in a turn of shooting from 3 kitted out GSC leman russes (think it was 2 LRBTs and a demolisher, all 3 had lascannon and 1 had plasma sponsons). Granted its a lot of firepower to absorb and it limped ahead with 5ish wounds left, but still it was 1 turn of shooting from 3 units.
Still, rule of cool... and it looked damn imposing and cool walking across the field
Yeah, when I've played guard it has meant that my Gork dies turn 1. However! That also means that my two trukks of tankbustas actually survive turn 1 and could savagely retaliate. Still, losing a model you've slaved away on before it can do anything at all feels really bad. Mine is a snakebite gorkanaut, converted from a mawkrusha- I'm super proud of it, but he just doesn't stay alive.
Having 3 AM tanks that kill a naut in a turn is acceptable, the big walkers used to be 5 HP with the chance of being immobilized or lose their weapons. AP2 weapons could even instant kill them with a single lucky shot.
Being durable is not enough since our armored stuff is only pure transports or close combat units with poor shooting. I'd like less resilient walkers and vehicles but way cheaper than now.
Otherwise they need to double their damage output at least. In the case of transports they need to be cheaper anyway, no matter what.
I could agree with that. I think it needs a hefty (50-100?) points drop. We are paying way too much for durability, when honestly its not even that durable.
This edition it seems like less durable transports (like trukks) are much more survivable than in the past, but more durable things like nauts or BWs arnt as survivable on average
That's interesting. I'm not at all a fan of MWG. Still 3 Russ to kill a Naut a turn seems reasonable to me. With out watching the battle report I imagine the Ork play must have spent time shooting and not running. I can also imagine the other player trying to sit way back from the Orks.
What dont you like about MWG? Their batreps seem to be pretty enjoyable if you arnt looking for super competitive stuff, for me atleast
If I remember correctly it did run but there was a lot of terrain so it didnt get shot till turn 3 or so due to LOS. The russes were essentially on the back board edge. Most of the rest of the Ork army was dealing with infiltrating genestealers.
On a side note, im going crazy not seeing any rumors. I keep checking the News and Rumors section and nada, not even anything about SW either. its driving me insane!
Billagio wrote: What dont you like about MWG? Their batreps seem to be pretty enjoyable if you arnt looking for super competitive stuff, for me atleast
If I remember correctly it did run but there was a lot of terrain so it didnt get shot till turn 3 or so due to LOS. The russes were essentially on the back board edge. Most of the rest of the Ork army was dealing with infiltrating genestealers.
On a side note, im going crazy not seeing any rumors. I keep checking the News and Rumors section and nada, not even anything about SW either. its driving me insane!
I just don't care for them. They don't seem like people I would want to game with. I don't like their humor very much it's no big deal really. I don't bother with very may youtube battle reports any more I just don't really enjoy them as much any more. I don't mean to sound rude about them, they just aren't people I see as like minded to myself. if that makes any sense.
Meh, well get rumors soon enough. there's a GW thing in Germany coming up... unless it's already happened. I'd be looking at any large events where GW is going to be or is hosting for rumor drop dates.
I'm hoping that buggies and trukks are cheap but fragile. Hordes of Ork light vehicles blowing up left and right but the Ork player just laughing because he has a bunch more is very appealing to me.
Some Ork vehicles seem like they should be tough, though. I like how in the stories they will blow pieces off of battlewagons and stompas and they just keep coming. I like the Ramshackle rule in this regard, andI wish all Ork vehicles had it. I also like that Ork vehicles have relatively high wounds and poor armor saves. It makes them more resistant to high-ap anti-tank weapons like lascannon but more vulnerable to being battered apart by mid-strength, high-volume weapons like autocannons. This feels very thematic to me.
That said I think they overvalued the extra wounds of vehicles like the battlewagon and stompa. If I did the math right the battlewagon only needs about 1.3 more lascannon hits to bring down than a rhino does. Of course that can be hard to balance when taking into account a KFF makes it as durable against lascannons as a Land Raider. Of course, a KFF has it's own costs and doesn't protect against melee.
Sometimes things are also just disappointing no matter how cheap the are, like the Killkannon, Dethkannon and the Leman Russ Vanquisher for the Imperial Guard.
Blackie wrote: Having 3 AM tanks that kill a naut in a turn is acceptable, the big walkers used to be 5 HP with the chance of being immobilized or lose their weapons. AP2 weapons could even instant kill them with a single lucky shot.
Being durable is not enough since our armored stuff is only pure transports or close combat units with poor shooting. I'd like less resilient walkers and vehicles but way cheaper than now.
Otherwise they need to double their damage output at least. In the case of transports they need to be cheaper anyway, no matter what.
Double is an understatement. Against tactical Marines in the open, a Morkanaut averages 1 hit from its KMK which means about a 5/6th chance to kill a single Marine, the little gun will most likely miss, the 2 rokkitz have about a 50% chance of hitting 1 time a turn which no longer means dead marine but gives you about a 33% chance to kill 1 more marine, and the 2 Dual Big shoots = 12 shots, 4 hits and 3 wounds meaning 1 dead Marine. So a 300ish pt unit can kill 2-3 Marines a turn in the shooting phase.....that is about 40pts of Dead Marines at most from a 320pt unit.....theoretically a unit should be able to kill about 1/3rd its points cost a turn (my opinion) and that means the Mork should be killing 100pts a turn or thereabouts, or equivalent to 8ish Marines, not 2-3.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:I'm hoping that buggies and trukks are cheap but fragile. Hordes of Ork light vehicles blowing up left and right but the Ork player just laughing because he has a bunch more is very appealing to me.
Some Ork vehicles seem like they should be tough, though. I like how in the stories they will blow pieces off of battlewagons and stompas and they just keep coming. I like the Ramshackle rule in this regard, andI wish all Ork vehicles had it. I also like that Ork vehicles have relatively high wounds and poor armor saves. It makes them more resistant to high-ap anti-tank weapons like lascannon but more vulnerable to being battered apart by mid-strength, high-volume weapons like autocannons. This feels very thematic to me.
That said I think they overvalued the extra wounds of vehicles like the battlewagon and stompa. If I did the math right the battlewagon only needs about 1.3 more lascannon hits to bring down than a rhino does. Of course that can be hard to balance when taking into account a KFF makes it as durable against lascannons as a Land Raider. Of course, a KFF has it's own costs and doesn't protect against melee.
Sometimes things are also just disappointing no matter how cheap the are, like the Killkannon, Dethkannon and the Leman Russ Vanquisher for the Imperial Guard.
I agree - I think a ramshackle horde of vehicles >>> a fewer, tougher vehicles; this is Orks we're talking about. Individually, Orks should have a lower quality than other factions units in the same role - but, there should just be a LOT more of them.
SemperMortis wrote:
Blackie wrote: Having 3 AM tanks that kill a naut in a turn is acceptable, the big walkers used to be 5 HP with the chance of being immobilized or lose their weapons. AP2 weapons could even instant kill them with a single lucky shot.
Being durable is not enough since our armored stuff is only pure transports or close combat units with poor shooting. I'd like less resilient walkers and vehicles but way cheaper than now.
Otherwise they need to double their damage output at least. In the case of transports they need to be cheaper anyway, no matter what.
Double is an understatement. Against tactical Marines in the open, a Morkanaut averages 1 hit from its KMK which means about a 5/6th chance to kill a single Marine, the little gun will most likely miss, the 2 rokkitz have about a 50% chance of hitting 1 time a turn which no longer means dead marine but gives you about a 33% chance to kill 1 more marine, and the 2 Dual Big shoots = 12 shots, 4 hits and 3 wounds meaning 1 dead Marine. So a 300ish pt unit can kill 2-3 Marines a turn in the shooting phase.....that is about 40pts of Dead Marines at most from a 320pt unit.....theoretically a unit should be able to kill about 1/3rd its points cost a turn (my opinion) and that means the Mork should be killing 100pts a turn or thereabouts, or equivalent to 8ish Marines, not 2-3.
This.
Let's pretend our opponents are actually competent, and know that 'naut shooting is just for that - naught. The first/second rounds of the game, their shooting should be prioritizing other targets (tankbustas, etc); as the 'naughts don't do anything if they're not in melee range of their opponent.
I think it'd be fun to have a Psycho-Dakka-Blaster artillery piece. Like an oversized Gattling Gun. You don't get to choose when it fires, but when it does it just spews bullets at everything- sort of like an Orky Dakka-focused Deathstrike launcher.
Anvildude wrote: I think it'd be fun to have a Psycho-Dakka-Blaster artillery piece. Like an oversized Gattling Gun. You don't get to choose when it fires, but when it does it just spews bullets at everything- sort of like an Orky Dakka-focused Deathstrike launcher.
On that note I wish they had the old Psycho-Dakka-Blasta rules for the stompa where you roll 2D6 for your shots and keep going until you get doubles, then its done for the rest of the game
Anvildude wrote: I think it'd be fun to have a Psycho-Dakka-Blaster artillery piece. Like an oversized Gattling Gun. You don't get to choose when it fires, but when it does it just spews bullets at everything- sort of like an Orky Dakka-focused Deathstrike launcher.
On that note I wish they had the old Psycho-Dakka-Blasta rules for the stompa where you roll 2D6 for your shots and keep going until you get doubles, then its done for the rest of the game
Ironically, that was one of the reasons I didn't buy a Stompa originally. If I am paying $110 for a Stompa and 750ish (7th edition) points (900+ Now) for a Giant walker it better be spewing out a FETH LOAD of bullets every turn until the end of the game OR! if the rule exists where it doesn't get to shoot for the rest of the game if it does something like that then it better be putting out about 3x as many bullets then it currently does. 2D6 shots = 7 on average and at BS2 that means 2 hits. Sorry if I am not impressed by 2 hits a turn at S7. In 8th edition that means on average we are going to get 1 Dead Marine a turn. It's even worse then the Morkanaut and that is saying something.
I think this was back in 5th or 6th (whenever the model came out), so it was a good deal cheaper, I think you could get a good loadout for about 600 points (even better with the Kustom Stompa rules). Usually you could get a lot of shots off, I liked the extra possibility for more shots, though the stompa as a whole was better so back then so id prefer the guaranteed shots on the current stompa like we have now, if that makes sense
IMO the old Raid on Kastorel-Novem book showed that Forge World, while not necessarily being the best at writing rules, at least understood what being an ork player was all about.
You want more gunz? That's cool, here's some rules for more gunz. You want even MOAR GUNZ? Okay, here's some rules for sticking gunz on every available hard point. What's that, you want ALL OF THE GUNZ!? Tell you what, model as many gunz on as you want, and here are rules for generating a random number of shots and rokkits every turn.
Was that the book that had the Kustom Stompa rules? Because we need more of that.
Also does anyone else really hate the new codex layout? I hate having to jump to the end of the codex to get the points values and then jumping back and forth to figure out each piece of included wargear a model has and the associated points. I miss having points values and possible wargear listed on the unit entry and with starting wargear included in the model/unit cost. It basically makes having battlescribe a necessity. I dont understand why the points values for a LRBT doesnt include a battle cannon when it says that the model comes with a battle cannon
Man, I'd love to have a kustom stompa builder table again, because the kustom stompa in the IA book somehow managed to be a worse unit than the codex stompa, which is impressive in a way.
And yes, I LOATHE the layout of the new codexes, though I understand why they do it - so that they can update points costs via chapter approved, without having to redo the entire codex.
Yep, Kastorel-Novem (IA:8, IIRC) had the big set of kustom stompa rules.
I would dearly love to get that back. I actually would be very pleased if they came out with a good set of orky Vehicle Design Rules, even if they were Open Play only.
I also definitely wouldn't mind if instead of getting models our codex was mostly kitbashing articles that allowed us to keep everything that doesn't have a model and added a bunch more stuff. Wreckin' Balls and Grabbin' Klawz on buggies instead of guns? Why not? (New models would be cool too.)
ETA: since the rules in Kastorel-Novem are no longer valid the price on used copies has come way down, in case anyone was interested in picking a copy up for some orkspiration.
And yes, I LOATHE the layout of the new codexes, though I understand why they do it - so that they can update points costs via chapter approved, without having to redo the entire codex.
See I get that, but they could atleast include the basic wargear that the unit comes with in the cost and still do that.
I would dearly love to get that back. I actually would be very pleased if they came out with a good set of orky Vehicle Design Rules, even if they were Open Play only.
I also definitely wouldn't mind if instead of getting models our codex was mostly kitbashing articles that allowed us to keep everything that doesn't have a model and added a bunch more stuff. Wreckin' Balls and Grabbin' Klawz on buggies instead of guns? Why not? (New models would be cool too.)
ETA: since the rules in Kastorel-Novem are no longer valid the price on used copies has come way down, in case anyone was interested in picking a copy up for some orkspiration.
Id be down to get it back too. Honestly if they had reasonably priced kustom rules for most of the vehicle units id be fine with no new models
Honestly, if they just said, "Look, as long as it's modelled on the miniature, you can pay the points for the wargear for anything- yes, that means you can have a Big Mek using a Wrekkin' Ball as his melee weapon- as long as you pay the points for it and have it modelled."
'cause honestly, there's not many ways you could 'break' that. Like, even if you slapped 10 Deffkannons on a Battlewagon, it's still just a battlewagon. And now you've got half your army cost in a single model.
Anvildude wrote: Honestly, if they just said, "Look, as long as it's modelled on the miniature, you can pay the points for the wargear for anything- yes, that means you can have a Big Mek using a Wrekkin' Ball as his melee weapon- as long as you pay the points for it and have it modelled."
'cause honestly, there's not many ways you could 'break' that. Like, even if you slapped 10 Deffkannons on a Battlewagon, it's still just a battlewagon. And now you've got half your army cost in a single model.
They would need to actually cost everything...I could definitely see a trukk with an infinite number of deffguns...
I would absolutely love just a set of size-based profiles, and the ability to just build it however you want, and equip it with whatever you want, provided you pay the appropriate points-cost for all the wargear...that would be brilliant!
orks don't have STC's...ork vehicles are generally based on the random whims of the mek(s) building them at the time...you could very well have it powered by a squig in a hamster-wheel, instead of an engine, for example...
Anvildude wrote: Honestly, if they just said, "Look, as long as it's modelled on the miniature, you can pay the points for the wargear for anything- yes, that means you can have a Big Mek using a Wrekkin' Ball as his melee weapon- as long as you pay the points for it and have it modelled."
'cause honestly, there's not many ways you could 'break' that. Like, even if you slapped 10 Deffkannons on a Battlewagon, it's still just a battlewagon. And now you've got half your army cost in a single model.
They would need to actually cost everything...I could definitely see a trukk with an infinite number of deffguns...
You know, I actually do wish Deffguns and Burnas had a cost. The whole free burnas n Kommandoz thing always felt weird to me (not that I think Kommandoz are overpowered by any means). More importantly, including the cost of Deffguns and Burnas in the price of Burna Boyz and Lootas is one of the things making Spanner Boyz useless. If Spanner Boyz had a base cost of 6 points and didn't have to buy the burna/deffgun then they could be used as cheap ablative wounds for the unit. Also, if they adjusted some of the special weapons options it could lead to some interesting stuff. Like, if they made Killsawz ~10 points for Spanner Boyz, and they had a base cost of 6 points, then it might be interesting to hide three killsawz inside a unit of Burna Boyz.
I hope they get rid of the Pyromaniacs rule. It seems pretty useless, and hasn't come into effect in the games I've played. I liked ye olde rule where Burnas were more effective against tanks, seeing as they are cutting torches. Maybe replace Pyromaniacs with a rule giving Burna Boyz a re-roll to wound against vehicles, or giving them extra AP on wound rolls of 6 like Genestealers.
Anvildude wrote: I think it'd be fun to have a Psycho-Dakka-Blaster artillery piece. Like an oversized Gattling Gun. You don't get to choose when it fires, but when it does it just spews bullets at everything- sort of like an Orky Dakka-focused Deathstrike launcher.
On that note I wish they had the old Psycho-Dakka-Blasta rules for the stompa where you roll 2D6 for your shots and keep going until you get doubles, then its done for the rest of the game
Ironically, that was one of the reasons I didn't buy a Stompa originally. If I am paying $110 for a Stompa and 750ish (7th edition) points (900+ Now) for a Giant walker it better be spewing out a FETH LOAD of bullets every turn until the end of the game OR! if the rule exists where it doesn't get to shoot for the rest of the game if it does something like that then it better be putting out about 3x as many bullets then it currently does. 2D6 shots = 7 on average and at BS2 that means 2 hits. Sorry if I am not impressed by 2 hits a turn at S7. In 8th edition that means on average we are going to get 1 Dead Marine a turn. It's even worse then the Morkanaut and that is saying something.
Definitely not a selling point for a stompa even back then. It was about the Big Kannon with the huge blast marker and the suppa rokits. before that stupid random gun. The stats on it were good but I have no interest in paying for something that just stops working. (I own 5 Stompas because drain bamage) I much preferred getting them stuck into combat to chop things up. In this edition they just don't have enough attacks for their points. I'd like to try it out but I can't see what to do with it a Morkanaut is better for the number of attacks. I guess the stompa was limited to 4 because of the 6 damage weapon, But that's still fairly meaningless if it rolls into infantry where that's only at most 4 infantry killed. I'm super sick of mechanics that let me roll lots of hit dice for a single attack. rolling 2 dice for each attack would probably be less annoying and have the same number of hits.
I think the stompa just needs more gunz on it. more big shootas more sorchas more rokits. With the changes to blast weapons and the limitation on the number of suppa rokits that can be used in a single shooting phase, or is it turn. Unless it gets a BS buff in the codex. What else is it? a transport? that's a lot of points to transport 20 Models anywhere.
On that proposed artillery, the pay off would have to be huge for me to want to use one. Don't take that the wrong way, I like the bubble chukka a lot I have 4 of them. But they on't stop working because of random rolls on my end.
Jidmah wrote: The main reason whay Pyromaniacs hasn't done anything in my games is because they yet have to kill anything at all...
I forgot it was a burna boy special rule. It's never really been necessary in my games. usually they are near a bubble. or are all killed before they do anything. But I'm kinda reckless with them.
You know, I actually do wish Deffguns and Burnas had a cost. The whole free burnas n Kommandoz thing always felt weird to me (not that I think Kommandoz are overpowered by any means). More importantly, including the cost of Deffguns and Burnas in the price of Burna Boyz and Lootas is one of the things making Spanner Boyz useless. If Spanner Boyz had a base cost of 6 points and didn't have to buy the burna/deffgun then they could be used as cheap ablative wounds for the unit. Also, if they adjusted some of the special weapons options it could lead to some interesting stuff. Like, if they made Killsawz ~10 points for Spanner Boyz, and they had a base cost of 6 points, then it might be interesting to hide three killsawz inside a unit of Burna Boyz.
I totally agree with this. The boyz with the toyz should be priced as regular boyz, then the equipment on top. It would make mixing and matching a viable alternative, and easy and balanced. No one takes heavy weapon boyz in a boyz mob because it's useless at the moment. I would however love to take a couple of burna boyz in with the mob, even at the current stats of the burna. Kommandos with a couple of Deffguns would make them much more useful for camping objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What in the name of Mork is a Spanner supposed to do anyway? As part of a unit, they are either nowhere near a vehicle, or they are in the vehicle and they can't do anything.
What in the name of Mork is a Spanner supposed to do anyway? As part of a unit, they are either nowhere near a vehicle, or they are in the vehicle and they can't do anything.
That's a tough one right now. redundancy seems like a much better choice most of the time. and yet. I have 3 with kill saws and 6 with KMB's.
The latter are meant to be part of a loota mob camping out with my Mek guns where the spanners can fix a sing wound a turn and still, if needed shoot.
I mostly have these for games with power levels with friends.
I really wish mobs, probably all mobs, could ad grots to their units maybe a 1 for 1 or slightly less as ablative wounds. with bespoke rules each mob type could have individual limitations and interactions.
oh well.
Jidmah wrote: The main reason whay Pyromaniacs hasn't done anything in my games is because they yet have to kill anything at all...
To put that into perspective, a unit of 15 Burnas have 30 hits on average at S4, that is 15 wounds against T4 and against 3+ saves that is 5 Dead Marines, of course you have to get them into 9 inch range...good luck, and they have to survive for that long, also good luck. Basically they suck at everything.
Jidmah wrote: The main reason whay Pyromaniacs hasn't done anything in my games is because they yet have to kill anything at all...
To put that into perspective, a unit of 15 Burnas have 30 hits on average at S4, that is 15 wounds against T4 and against 3+ saves that is 5 Dead Marines, of course you have to get them into 9 inch range...good luck, and they have to survive for that long, also good luck. Basically they suck at everything.
Im hoping our mech options become a lot better in the new codex partially for this reason. Hoping BWs are good as well. I loved deploying like 6 models and seeing my opponents face when on turn 2 it turns into like 120
Had a three player game at 750 points yesterday against Imperial Knights and Necrons.
Necrons ran i think two blocks of 20 warriors with a cryptek each as well as some scarabs, plus 5 deathmarks in reserve
Knight player ran a Knight Paladin I think (the one with rapid fire battlecannon and avenger gattling cannon) and two armiger warglaives.
I ran a mob of 25 boyz with power klaw nob, a mob of 24 boyz with powerklaw nob, a warboss with power klaw and the +1 attack trait, and a gorkanaut.
So first off, yikes, a knight and two armigers in a 750 point game. My only real chance of dealing with them was my gorkanaut, so I was going to have to be careful with positioning. The necron player and I deployed in 12" by 12" boxes in adjacent corners while the knights deployed in a box in the center of the table edge opposite to us. I hid my naut from the knights behind a large tower in the center to protect it. Knight hide behind a large house. Necrons hid behind a rocky plateau. I win to go first, then knights, then crons. There are two objectives near the center of the board, one to the west of my position and one to the north.
Turn 1
I move one mob up to the westward objective with the other mob following behind, hiding behind the tower from the crons. Naut moves up to be right up against the tower and shoots at the warriors, killing four.
Knight player goes next, shooting the mob on the objective with the big knight and both armigers, killing nine. Armigers move up. He claims no objectives.
Necron player goes. 2 or 3 warriors res back. Scarabs go the long way around the plateau, trying to come up behind the armigers. Warriors moved up to claim the northern objective and everything shoots at the naut, putting two wounds on it.
Orks 1 Necrons 1 Knights 0
Turn 2
The orks on my objective move up to form a big wall around it and hopefully slow the knight's advance. Hiding mob sweeps around the tower to come to bear with the warriors and contest the other objective. Gorkanaut moves in on the other warrior mob. I shoot what I can, killing some warriors, then charge the Naut into one mob and the boyz mob into the other. Gorkanaut is mediocre while the boyz mob wipes the necron warrior unit and consolidates into the one the gorka is fighting. The northern objective is held by me, uncontested.
The knight player once again fires everything into the mob on the western objective. The big knight and one armiger then charge that mob, while the other armiger joins in on the big melee over by the northern objective. Miraculously, after all the shooting at my western mob and being doube knight charged, two boyz survive! I spend 2 cp to interrupt with the other mob to attack the armiger and take 3 wounds off of it.
Necron player goes, and basically all of the warriors in the second unit return. The deathmarks deploy and shoot at my warboss, taking three wounds off of him. Warriors hack a couple of wounds off of the naut, while the scarabs charge into the mutli-melee, killing some boyz. Gorkanaut and boyz fight back, with the necron unit being reduced to 4 warriors and the armiger going down to seven wounds.
Morale phase comes up. Unsurprisingly, my western mob fails, but when rolling for the boss nobs' Keepin' Order ability, I get a six and one remains, which is all I needed to cap the objective again! In Mork-like fashion, the western mob makes excellent gains for me despite not really krumpin' anyfing at all...sneaky gits.
Orks 3 Necrons 1 Knights 0
Turn 3
My warboss runs in towards the armiger in the enormous brawl next to the northern objective, and my naut falls back from the fight with the warriors. After unloading everything into the remaining four, one stubbornly remains, forcing me to to charge it again to finish it off and prevent RP from firing. I am however able to declare a mutli charge and catch the two crypteks and the scarabs in combat as well. The Icon of Gork makes short work of the lone warrior and both crypteks, while my warboss goes toe to toe with the armiger and kills it! The boyz do some wounds to the scarabs.
The knight player moves his knights onto the western objective.
Necron player fires some parting shots from the deathmarks at my warboss, failing to do anything. The player had to leave so the scarabs fled the combat and the deathmarks disappeared into the oblivion from whence they came.
Orks 4 Necrons 1 Knights 1
Turn 4
This was it. The big showdown. My boyz formed up on the northern objective to hod it to the last, and the gorkanaut charged in with the warboss. The towering mass of orky engineering crashed into the Knight Paladin. It did not disappoint. With the power of the Waaagh! at its back I rolled 6 crush attacks and got 5 hits, 5 wounds and rolled a phenomenal 25 damage, destroying the Knight in a single go!
...Only to have my victory snatched from me by some 2 cp house Terryn stratagem that allowed the knight to redeploy an inch away with d3 wounds remaining (in this case, 2). Cowardly 'umie scum, slinkin' away from a good scrap!
My warboss had charged the big knight and was unable to fight the armiger, which in turn absolutely destroyed him.
He then used his last CP to do the machine spirit resurgent stratagem to fire his big knight at top profile. Both knights unloaded on my gorkanaut, then the big one charged, losing a wound in overwatch, barely surviving. The armiger followed it in. Despite the dizzying array of firepower going into my naut, the scrappy juggernaut survived somehow with 3 wounds remaining (with a little help from my last CP). He struck back at the big knight vengefully, and even on his lowest profile managed to finish what he started and fell the knight once and for all!
At this point it was 6 to 3 in my favor and short of tabling me (which seemed unlikely with just one armiger remaining, but who knows, my naut was on its last legs and a skeleton crew of boyz held the northern objective) there wasn't a way for him to come back on VPs. Also, the shop was closing up so we decided to call it an ork victory! Waaaagh!
Really fun game overall, though I certainly had hot dice for most of it. I thought the knight player had this in the bag with such a skewed list, but with careful deployment and near-constant combat, my gorkanaut was able to avoid being shot long enough for me to bring him to bear against the knights. The knight player also played very conservatively which seemed like an error to me. Had he deployed more aggressively and made sure to shoot my naut to pieces, there wouldve been very little either me or the cron player couldve done to beat the knights. There was also a lot of line of sight blocking terrain on the map which helped a good bit. We might have messed up somewhere along the lines when it came to the fight phase. It got confusing with three players all involved in the same combat. Also, someone mentioned later on that the knights may have been able to fire into the combats between me and the necrons seeing as no friendly units were there, but we couldnt find the rules fast enough and decided to just keep playing it how we were, with no shooting into CC.
MVP of this game for me was definitely the Gorkanaut. It stormed through the necron lines, straight up demolished the paladin on the charge, and still managed to survive a silly amount of shooting and attacks so it could finish the darn thing off. An honorable mention goes to the last of the northern mob, stubbornly existing long enough for me to get a second VP from the objective before being obliterated.
That resurrection strat for Knights is weird.
Good play by play but I have to say that 3 player games are just too weird. I have never really gotten 3 player games to work. Multiple combats are so messy with 3 and it usually involves 2 people ganging up on one then facing each other. And what happens when someone casts do 2 people get to deny. The game kinda breaks at that point.
Nithaniel wrote: That resurrection strat for Knights is weird.
Good play by play but I have to say that 3 player games are just too weird. I have never really gotten 3 player games to work. Multiple combats are so messy with 3 and it usually involves 2 people ganging up on one then facing each other. And what happens when someone casts do 2 people get to deny. The game kinda breaks at that point.
It certainly gets weird and you have to involve several house rules along the lines of Triumph and Treachery to make sure there's incentive not to just target the biggest threat from one side on the table. Ideally an objective where you gain points every turn in the middle alongside secret side objectives for each player that you can change out for another one like in Maelstrom of War.
Knights are kind of balanced by having very little CP to begin with.
... that is, if GW hadn't forgotten about the existence of cheap IG battalions again.
However, in this case, the 3 CP he spend to reactivate his knight was everything he got for his army - pretty much akin to having an 8 CP stratagem for orks.
Are we likely to get a new boxed set or new "start collecting" set with the new codex release? Recently got back into 40k again so I havnt been following what the trends have been for previous releases.
Player in question runs Admech, so I imagine he would sub in rangers or something as chaff. I'll be playing him again tomorrow at 2000 points. Any suggestions for what I should bring? He's got the three knights, rangers, onagers and kastellan robots that I know of.
What I have available to work with is:
90 boyz
Gorkanaut
2 deff dreads
3 rokkit kanz
1 dakka jet
5 tankbustas
10 nobs with various wargear
10 grots (could be ammo runts for the nobz)
10 lootas
5 flashgitz
6 mega nobz
3 weird boyz
2 Warbosses (klaw and big choppa)
1 big mek with kff 1 mini mek
6 storm boyz (though I have ten more that I could potentially get put together before the match)
1 painboy
Obviously I'm going to run as many boyz as possible, but should I consider footslogging nobs with ammo runts just for more non-armor body count? 10 with runts have the same amount of wounds as 30 boyz but with a better save and allocation shenanigans with the runts. I know it's normally not considered that great but due to my limited amount of boyz, maybe worth it?
Kap'n Krump wrote: Man, I'd love to have a kustom stompa builder table again, because the kustom stompa in the IA book somehow managed to be a worse unit than the codex stompa, which is impressive in a way.
And yes, I LOATHE the layout of the new codexes, though I understand why they do it - so that they can update points costs via chapter approved, without having to redo the entire codex.
Umm they could even with old layout. What they couldn't with old and could in new is replace entire page od points so you wouldn#t need to refer original page for those that weren#t changed and ca for those that did.
Of course gw decided to not use that thus making points at back useless...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZoBo wrote: I would absolutely love just a set of size-based profiles, and the ability to just build it however you want, and equip it with whatever you want, provided you pay the appropriate points-cost for all the wargear...that would be brilliant!
orks don't have STC's...ork vehicles are generally based on the random whims of the mek(s) building them at the time...you could very well have it powered by a squig in a hamster-wheel, instead of an engine, for example...
Welcome to broken system though. That's custom vehicle building rules and those always gives either underpowered junk or are brokenly good
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kap'n Krump wrote: Wait, a 2 CP stratagem to resurrect a freaking knight, which then can operate at full capacity for another 1 CP stratagem? That seems crazy.
Thought it was 3cp. Also even then it's 50-50 does it work. It's more of amusive trick rather than competive choice. There#s nastier things than that
Also note he could have max 3 cp for battleforged. So he risked 2/3 of his cp on strategem that will fail half the time. I would have been more worried about house raven strategem
Billagio wrote: Are we likely to get a new boxed set or new "start collecting" set with the new codex release? Recently got back into 40k again so I havnt been following what the trends have been for previous releases.
The start collecting box is all plastics and not that old. I don't think it will get replaced.
I would love to let my inner Ork loose and just attach 4 Big Shootaz or Rokkit Launchaz to a BW as a rule of cool, but does anyone just run BW with no guns at all? They are all definitely a points sink.
We can all hope for some pts reduction in the upcoming Codex, but for the time are any of the (non artillery) guns on a BW really worth it?
BW are usually advancing and then either dead or in combat. I really don't see a reason to invest in guns on them. The killkannon is the only one with a decent profile, but it reduces transport capacity, so...
Jidmah wrote: BW are usually advancing and then either dead or in combat. I really don't see a reason to invest in guns on them. The killkannon is the only one with a decent profile, but it reduces transport capacity, so...
Flash git transport doesn't want to move or assault so if you have those useful. Not optimal unit to begin with but in less competive enviroment can work(hell last time I used they were stars of my game). And killkannon transport drop is less of an issue when you aren't going to carry 20 flash gits anyway!
Not competive option but if your playing group has relaxed lists they can work. I have won games with bw+flashgit combo list and as said they were stars of the game. Of course if field is any tough this is less viable.
I have a very relaxed playing group, and I can assure you, a BW with Flash Gits is where points go to die. Putting more points into that doesn't make them any better at all.
BW are simply too expensive to use them for anything but moving some units fast for turn 1, and you need to advance them to gain any benefit over footslogging.
They also aren't really good at protecting units inside as they tend to be torn apart by assault cannons, heavy bolters, plasma guns and the like.
If you want to add survivability to your flash gits, footslog them with max ammo runts and keep them near your KFF and doc you were bringing anyways. From experience, most people tend to focus boyz mobz and artillery over them.
Got back from Dallas GT yesterday. Top table was Drukhari vs Orks. Orks guy lost, and ended up dropping to 6th after points.
His list was Green Tide galore. I think 2 batt and spearhead, made use of Da Jump. Final game was next to me, I watched from my table (wasn't in the running). He missed 4 of his da jump charges. Ouch. Drukhari just skirted around LoS blocking tarrian to stay away from Mek Gunz. Just though tI would post up.
Here is his list from BCP app.
Wierdboy
Wierdboy
Wierdboy
30 boyz
30 boyz
30 boyz
Painboy
Painboy
5 Mek Gunz with Kustom mega cannons
4 mek guns with kustom mega cannons
Warboss relic
Big mek warlord
Big mek
30 boyz
30 boyz
30 boyz
Dynas wrote: Got back from Dallas GT yesterday. Top table was Drukhari vs Orks. Orks guy lost, and ended up dropping to 6th after points.
His list was Green Tide galore. I think 2 batt and spearhead, made use of Da Jump. Final game was next to me, I watched from my table (wasn't in the running). He missed 4 of his da jump charges.
Billagio wrote: Can you still use Da Jump on turn 1 with the beta rules?
Yes, they explicitly exempted it from the beta rules in one of the responses from the development team. Though some might argue it "doesn't count" given that it wasn't written into the big FAQ.
Excellent. Without looking into the exact wording I would think it would be exempt since the rules specifically calls out deploying in the enemy deployment zone turn 1 at the end of the movement phase, where as Da Jump happens in the psychic phase. Im not really sure how theres an argument there.
Billagio wrote: Can you still use Da Jump on turn 1 with the beta rules?
Yes, they explicitly exempted it from the beta rules in one of the responses from the development team. Though some might argue it "doesn't count" given that it wasn't written into the big FAQ.
Plus lots of people still don't know since it's on such obscure source and buried far so you can expect rule arquments regarding it in tournaments
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Billagio wrote: Excellent. Without looking into the exact wording I would think it would be exempt since the rules specifically calls out deploying in the enemy deployment zone turn 1 at the end of the movement phase, where as Da Jump happens in the psychic phase. Im not really sure how theres an argument there.
Beta rules prevent from coming to table on T1. Da jump guys comes to table on T1. That's the issue. Only thing(besides FB comment) indicating it might not apply is that it's on box titled "tactical reserves" which does not apply. Rule text itself 100% prevents da jump.
Stupid GW writing and even more stupid positioning of clarification. Would take GW good 1 minute to put it in where any professional game development company would put but alas GW doesn't operate like professionals. End result. I was nearly prevented doing that on tournament and only got it after good 10 minutes intense rule arquments. If scenario had been remotely normal this delay likely would have meant one turn less being played. Stupid stupid lazy amateur GW who think it's more important to put silly images to FB with attitude that's clearly looking down on their customers rather than putting official notes where they are supposed to be.
Billagio wrote: Can you still use Da Jump on turn 1 with the beta rules?
Yes, they explicitly exempted it from the beta rules in one of the responses from the development team. Though some might argue it "doesn't count" given that it wasn't written into the big FAQ.
Plus lots of people still don't know since it's on such obscure source and buried far so you can expect rule arquments regarding it in tournaments
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Billagio wrote: Excellent. Without looking into the exact wording I would think it would be exempt since the rules specifically calls out deploying in the enemy deployment zone turn 1 at the end of the movement phase, where as Da Jump happens in the psychic phase. Im not really sure how theres an argument there.
Beta rules prevent from coming to table on T1. Da jump guys comes to table on T1. That's the issue. Only thing(besides FB comment) indicating it might not apply is that it's on box titled "tactical reserves" which does not apply. Rule text itself 100% prevents da jump.
Stupid GW writing and even more stupid positioning of clarification. Would take GW good 1 minute to put it in where any professional game development company would put but alas GW doesn't operate like professionals. End result. I was nearly prevented doing that on tournament and only got it after good 10 minutes intense rule arquments. If scenario had been remotely normal this delay likely would have meant one turn less being played. Stupid stupid lazy amateur GW who think it's more important to put silly images to FB with attitude that's clearly looking down on their customers rather than putting official notes where they are supposed to be.
See the problem is that the Tactical Reserves rule in itself does not prevent using Da Jump 1st turn. They are not arriving on the battlefield, they already are on the battlefield. The conundrum begins when GW made a completely different FAQ entry, and with typical GW finesse they completely forgot the interplay between different FAQ answers.
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and
then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the
Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having
moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.
Now I believe the intent is that the movement/shooting restrictions for arriving as reinforcements are in effect but the unit is not actually arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements. However the sad part is that when you add the two rules together then by absolute RAW you cannot Da Jump outside your deployment zone on turn one.
Feel free to house rule however you like but be prepared to not do any DaJumping on turn one if you run into a RAW argument.
See the problem is that the Tactical Reserves rule in itself does not prevent using Da Jump 1st turn. They are not arriving on the battlefield, they already are on the battlefield. The conundrum begins when GW made a completely different FAQ entry, and with typical GW finesse they completely forgot the interplay between different FAQ answers.
But they LEAVE it. And if you leave it how can you then be on battlefield without arriving? Da Jump specifically says they LEAVE the battlefield. As in no more there. GW intended it to not work as they clarified on FB. Good. No problems on them clarifying how it's supposed to work. That's great! Problem is them putting it only on facebook comment(and rather insultingly toward their customers) which has before been unofficial source and only there. And now it's buried who knows where. Not everybody follows FB posts. So plenty of people still don't know about that clarification. Which means you can expect to run into people unaware of it resulting in rule arquments. Which is precisely what happened to me on last tournament.
Yup. I hope they reword the spell in the Codex, should they keep it in the game at all... it just feels too gimmicky and it's the sole reason Orks have had a sliver of competitiveness left. I wish they would just drop it altogether and balance Orks by other means.
It's the same with KFF basically, feels like every Ork vehicle is balanced around having a 5++ (however they would be overpriced even if they had it as an innate ability).
Billagio wrote: Are we likely to get a new boxed set or new "start collecting" set with the new codex release? Recently got back into 40k again so I havnt been following what the trends have been for previous releases.
The start collecting box is all plastics and not that old. I don't think it will get replaced.
Unless they move the Painboy back into the HQ slot they will need to though. You can't make a patrol detachment with it currently which is pretty weird.
Billagio wrote: Are we likely to get a new boxed set or new "start collecting" set with the new codex release? Recently got back into 40k again so I havnt been following what the trends have been for previous releases.
The start collecting box is all plastics and not that old. I don't think it will get replaced.
Unless they move the Painboy back into the HQ slot they will need to though. You can't make a patrol detachment with it currently which is pretty weird.
Neither can eldar one be used to make. It's not requirement for SC's to be legal detachments.
Guys, can we PLEASE let the argument about Da Jump and the beta rule rest. Everyone agrees it's badly written, end of story, go reread the old posts as nothing has changed.
Jidmah wrote: Neither can tyranids - they get 1 HQ, 1 troops, 1 heavy support.
I don't think the start collecting stuff has the target of getting players ready for matched play.
Um that IS legal patrol detachment...
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Shrapnelbait wrote: Guys, can we PLEASE let the argument about Da Jump and the beta rule rest. Everyone agrees it's badly written, end of story, go reread the old posts as nothing has changed.
Problem isn't even the quality of writing but where the GW decided to put the clarification. So rather than having easily found clarification for da jump(and big pile of other similar abilities) we have...well some comment in ages old FB post. Good luck finding it.
Jidmah wrote: Neither can tyranids - they get 1 HQ, 1 troops, 1 heavy support.
I don't think the start collecting stuff has the target of getting players ready for matched play.
Um that IS legal patrol detachment...
Huh, could have bet you need two troops. Goes to show how often I have fielded a patrol detachment.
Good news for me though, I only need one box of nurglings to get a Chaos Daemons DP in my DG army
Shrapnelbait wrote: Guys, can we PLEASE let the argument about Da Jump and the beta rule rest. Everyone agrees it's badly written, end of story, go reread the old posts as nothing has changed.
Problem isn't even the quality of writing but where the GW decided to put the clarification. So rather than having easily found clarification for da jump(and big pile of other similar abilities) we have...well some comment in ages old FB post. Good luck finding it.
Still, this problem isn't new. No need to go for another 3 pages of you and actual english guy disagreeing about it.
Yeah. I know that. Problem is it\s so god damn hard place to find in some ages old post in FB. When you have plenty of players who don't follow FB you will run into players who haven't heard. So then what? It's basically your word. "Yes they had such comment on their FB honest. Oh and honest they even said this time it IS official despite standard policy before this was FB posts were 100% unofficial".
I already ran into this situation. And this was fairly fresh yet it was still hard(as in didn't find) to find the damn post so I actually had nothing to show...It was basically case of does opponent and TO trust my word for it or not...
That's why they should be in one official location...Which GW as a matter of fact already has. This little place called "FAQ's and erratas". Why they didn't put it there is beyond me. Would have taken less time to do than make that image and rather contemptuous treatment toward their customers along it.
That's why they should be in one official location...Which GW as a matter of fact already has. This little place called "FAQ's and erratas". Why they didn't put it there is beyond me. Would have taken less time to do than make that image and rather contemptuous treatment toward their customers along it.
That makes way too much sense. GW is getting better but they arnt that good yet, especially when it comes to ork things
I played a game Sunday against AM+AC. The game lasted less than 3 full urns. I went second and had the lead on points until turn three when I called it. final score 12 to 14 Orks lose.
I had run out of stuff I could do anything productive with I was down to less than 200 points on the table.
But I have a question. On turn two I took one objective the ememy controled as well as protected on they were trying to take from me. This all worked fine at the time. I had theoption to instead make a long advance+charge to slay the enemy warlord and claim an objective, which would have been the real reason for the charge, I would still have been able to tack via model count the other enemy objective, the one I did take,. And on top of that the mission would let players burn objectives in the enemy deployment zone. So a possible 5 points from that and the objectives I already had . 3. for 8 points at the end of my turn. possible 12 total at the end of turn 2. to my opponents 7 going into turn 3.
Would you have done that knowing it would likely get you tabled in a game you knew would be over in the next turn.
If not tabled you'd have hardly anything on the table and have to call the game. I imagined a 13 to 14 Orks lead at the end of turn 3 in the above scenario based on at best keeping two objectives in my back field and my warlord being killed.
Would there be any reason not to take the risk next time?
warhead01 wrote: I played a game Sunday against AM+AC. The game lasted less than 3 full urns. I went second and had the lead on points until turn three when I called it. final score 12 to 14 Orks lose.
I had run out of stuff I could do anything productive with I was down to less than 200 points on the table.
But I have a question. On turn two I took one objective the ememy controled as well as protected on they were trying to take from me. This all worked fine at the time. I had theoption to instead make a long advance+charge to slay the enemy warlord and claim an objective, which would have been the real reason for the charge, I would still have been able to tack via model count the other enemy objective, the one I did take,. And on top of that the mission would let players burn objectives in the enemy deployment zone. So a possible 5 points from that and the objectives I already had . 3. for 8 points at the end of my turn. possible 12 total at the end of turn 2. to my opponents 7 going into turn 3.
Would you have done that knowing it would likely get you tabled in a game you knew would be over in the next turn.
If not tabled you'd have hardly anything on the table and have to call the game. I imagined a 13 to 14 Orks lead at the end of turn 3 in the above scenario based on at best keeping two objectives in my back field and my warlord being killed.
Would there be any reason not to take the risk next time?
In a word: Waaaagh! Go for it. It sounds like it was going to be a lose/lose scenario for you anyway, so you might as well get some bragging rights for giving his Warlord a gud stompin'. With any justice, the codex will be able to turn a scenario like this into a 'ard krumpin'.
I've noticed that the opponents often overestimate orks. We play differently and many opponents don't get that and sometimes give up too early. It usually goes like this:
First turn orks do no damage, the opponent kills 1/3 of our army. Than turn 2/3 boyz reach the foe and even being depleted kill 1/2 of the opponent's army while scoring a lot of points. The opponent goes super defensive and eventually kills 90% of our army while taking little return damage but he's allready down on points and morally affected by our 2-3 turn effectiveness.
Doesn't happen all the time but still quite often.
koooaei wrote: I've noticed that the opponents often overestimate orks. We play differently and many opponents don't get that and sometimes give up too early. It usually goes like this:
First turn orks do no damage, the opponent kills 1/3 of our army. Than turn 2/3 boyz reach the foe and even being depleted kill 1/2 of the opponent's army while scoring a lot of points. The opponent goes super defensive and eventually kills 90% of our army while taking little return damage but he's allready down on points and morally affected by our 2-3 turn effectiveness.
Doesn't happen all the time but still quite often.
Yea I agree with this - the situation you've described is how 99% of my games go. If games go to turn 5 or 6 I generally have very little, to nothing left. Orks peak too soon and players who are unfamiliar give up when we peak rather than wait the game out for a win.
koooaei wrote: I've noticed that the opponents often overestimate orks. We play differently and many opponents don't get that and sometimes give up too early. It usually goes like this:
First turn orks do no damage, the opponent kills 1/3 of our army. Than turn 2/3 boyz reach the foe and even being depleted kill 1/2 of the opponent's army while scoring a lot of points. The opponent goes super defensive and eventually kills 90% of our army while taking little return damage but he's allready down on points and morally affected by our 2-3 turn effectiveness.
Doesn't happen all the time but still quite often.
For me it's been turns 1-3 I get blasted to bits, kill something but very little. Hopefully get ahead on maelstrom vp's as by turns 3-5 I get blasted on those as army is basically nearly tabled. Turns 4-6 it then gets tabled.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah. I know that. Problem is it\s so god damn hard place to find in some ages old post in FB. When you have plenty of players who don't follow FB you will run into players who haven't heard. So then what? It's basically your word. "Yes they had such comment on their FB honest. Oh and honest they even said this time it IS official despite standard policy before this was FB posts were 100% unofficial".
I already ran into this situation. And this was fairly fresh yet it was still hard(as in didn't find) to find the damn post so I actually had nothing to show...It was basically case of does opponent and TO trust my word for it or not...
That's why they should be in one official location...Which GW as a matter of fact already has. This little place called "FAQ's and erratas". Why they didn't put it there is beyond me. Would have taken less time to do than make that image and rather contemptuous treatment toward their customers along it.
I have added the picture to the first post of this thread, so it's easier to find now. If someone can provide the link to the actual FB post, I will add it as well.
Jidmah wrote: I have added the picture to the first post of this thread, so it's easier to find now. If someone can provide the link to the actual FB post, I will add it as well.
warhead01 wrote: I played a game Sunday against AM+AC. The game lasted less than 3 full urns. I went second and had the lead on points until turn three when I called it. final score 12 to 14 Orks lose.
I had run out of stuff I could do anything productive with I was down to less than 200 points on the table.
But I have a question. On turn two I took one objective the ememy controled as well as protected on they were trying to take from me. This all worked fine at the time. I had theoption to instead make a long advance+charge to slay the enemy warlord and claim an objective, which would have been the real reason for the charge, I would still have been able to tack via model count the other enemy objective, the one I did take,. And on top of that the mission would let players burn objectives in the enemy deployment zone. So a possible 5 points from that and the objectives I already had . 3. for 8 points at the end of my turn. possible 12 total at the end of turn 2. to my opponents 7 going into turn 3.
Would you have done that knowing it would likely get you tabled in a game you knew would be over in the next turn.
If not tabled you'd have hardly anything on the table and have to call the game. I imagined a 13 to 14 Orks lead at the end of turn 3 in the above scenario based on at best keeping two objectives in my back field and my warlord being killed.
Would there be any reason not to take the risk next time?
In a word: Waaaagh! Go for it. It sounds like it was going to be a lose/lose scenario for you anyway, so you might as well get some bragging rights for giving his Warlord a gud stompin'. With any justice, the codex will be able to turn a scenario like this into a 'ard krumpin'.
Finally! Some advice I understand! WAAAAGH!
I think your right because as my scrumgrod likes competitive play and itc rules from time to time he has been planning to hit itc events. I'm probably hit toughest punching bag... Those points I might have scored could have an effect on my own standing in a tournament so if I would have managed more points it would have been better but I couldn't reconcile that with what happens if I have more points but and tabled or call the game being effectively tables. All in all it was a much better game than I had expected it would be. H had 3 squads of 3 AC Jet bike guys and a Jet bike captain then his AM element of which he still had 2 LRBT, 4 infantry squads kitted, 2 Mortar teams and 2 officers. I had managed to wipe out his conscripts commissar and priest and put only 1 wound on a mortar team in his back field.
I took 5 Killa Kans 2 Gorkanauts 4 mobs of 30 boys 1 warboss 1 biker Bigmek with Kff and 2 Meks with kill saws because gak list. lol. I hadn't really wanted to play and put no effort into my list.
My Gorkanauts exploding on turn two was fantastic and was far more helpful to me than it might sound.
I really think I needed 10 grots and a weirdboy in that list and it's good. Just have to sort out the killa kans which did impress me when they got in combat. Maybe they just need to be cheap and stuck in to matter.
I'd like to try them again.
I have a habit of playing too conservatively through out my games. I need to be more reckless and go for the glory faster.
I will have a battle report on my blog in a few days with some pictures, I'll post a link to it here when it's up.
Agree. If you're losing the game anyways, follow this list:
1) Kill their warlord. Keep bragging about it. 2) Kill a well painted model with some kind of head gear. Claim that the ork who made the killing blow stole the funny hat. Bonus points if that ork actually has a new hat modeled for next game. 3) Form the "Zog it" ork glyph with a mob of boyz. 4) Climb the highest ruin and declare yourself "Boss of da mountain" 5) Try blowing up a weird boy on purpose by getting as many orks as possible close to it. Make sure the explosion hits enemy models as well. 6) Use the DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem on any unit. Call out the stratagem's name every time you roll a six. 7) Advance and charge using a Warbosses aura. Yell "Waaagh!" at the top of your lungs while doing so. 8) Have your warboss fight the biggest enemy on the table. 9) Sing the ork song from DoW1 10) Keep explaining to your opponent why orks never lose.
Jidmah wrote: Agree. If you're losing the game anyways, follow this list:
1) Kill their warlord. Keep bragging about it.
2) Kill a well painted model with some kind of head gear. Claim that the ork who made the killing blow stole the funny hat. Bonus points if that ork actually has a new hat modeled for next game.
3) Form the "Zog it" ork glyph with a mob of boyz.
4) Climb the highest ruin and declare yourself "Boss of da mountain"
5) Try blowing up a weird boy on purpose by getting as many orks as possible close to it. Make sure the explosion hits enemy models as well.
6) Use the DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem on any unit. Call out the stratagem's name every time you roll a six.
7) Advance and charge using a Warbosses aura. Yell "Waaagh!" at the top of your lungs while doing so.
8) Have your warboss fight the biggest enemy on the table.
9) Sing the ork song from DoW1
10) Keep explaining to your opponent why orks never lose.
Well, the first rule works but you can keep the rest!
I just try not to play stupidly and put on a lot of pressure, score points and try to stay in the lead. My usual Scrumgrod starts to feel stressed and continues to look for ways to get back up to an even score or better if he can. Our games are usually very vicious and nasty fights. I rushed him with the Gorkanauts instead of boys and he hardly manage to wound each of them with 3 on one and 4 on the other with all of his shooting in the first turn. But if they had made it into his lines he'd have folded. My other units were fighting and slowly killing his Jet Bike guys in close combat...the issue is that he can gun down half a full mob in one shooting phase! Yikes but that hurts! My largest take away is that his army is "good" but it isn't that good.
I may trade out the Kans for a third Gorkanaaut next time and try to get those grots and Weird boy.
To quote Odorous. "If you challenge my glory your face I will step in." Sounds like a game plan for next time.
So, has anyone tried taking a Big Gun with the sole purpose of Da Jumping the crew to capture an objective? As long as you get other fast moving units closer to the enemy, you are going to be able to keep the objective since the grots can't be targeted.
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Well, the first rule works but you can keep the rest!
I just try not to play stupidly and put on a lot of pressure, score points and try to stay in the lead. My usual Scrumgrod starts to feel stressed and continues to look for ways to get back up to an even score or better if he can. Our games are usually very vicious and nasty fights. I rushed him with the Gorkanauts instead of boys and he hardly manage to wound each of them with 3 on one and 4 on the other with all of his shooting in the first turn. But if they had made it into his lines he'd have folded. My other units were fighting and slowly killing his Jet Bike guys in close combat...the issue is that he can gun down half a full mob in one shooting phase! Yikes but that hurts! My largest take away is that his army is "good" but it isn't that good.
I may trade out the Kans for a third Gorkanaaut next time and try to get those grots and Weird boy.
To quote Odorous. "If you challenge my glory your face I will step in." Sounds like a game plan for next time.
You're going to have a hard time with those bikes no matter what you do. I don't know if another naut is going to be your answer. It almost sounds like you need to have something fast that can get into his backlines and make him turn around and deal with the threat instead of concentrating on the boyz. Maybe a small squad of skorcha buggies going up the flanks or a min size bike squad? Hit those mortar teams.
If you can get the Kans in close with the Bikes, they can kill a bike with one successful wound. I tried kans again a little while ago and was surprised at how good they are in close combat. Give them KMBs and once they wound themselves, you can choose which wounded kan to put more wounds on, spreading out damage so the unit as a whole survives.
Definitely go for a weirdboy and Da Jump one of those mobs into his backfield or onto an objective. Painboy and wierdboy combo in the center of a couple of mobs will let you smite at max and heal the inevitable perils. Jetbikes don't like Smite, but they have to take it in the face or hang back and be ineffective.
Shrapnelbait wrote: So, has anyone tried taking a Big Gun with the sole purpose of Da Jumping the crew to capture an objective? As long as you get other fast moving units closer to the enemy, you are going to be able to keep the objective since the grots can't be targeted.
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Well, the first rule works but you can keep the rest!
I just try not to play stupidly and put on a lot of pressure, score points and try to stay in the lead. My usual Scrumgrod starts to feel stressed and continues to look for ways to get back up to an even score or better if he can. Our games are usually very vicious and nasty fights. I rushed him with the Gorkanauts instead of boys and he hardly manage to wound each of them with 3 on one and 4 on the other with all of his shooting in the first turn. But if they had made it into his lines he'd have folded. My other units were fighting and slowly killing his Jet Bike guys in close combat...the issue is that he can gun down half a full mob in one shooting phase! Yikes but that hurts! My largest take away is that his army is "good" but it isn't that good.
I may trade out the Kans for a third Gorkanaaut next time and try to get those grots and Weird boy.
To quote Odorous. "If you challenge my glory your face I will step in." Sounds like a game plan for next time.
You're going to have a hard time with those bikes no matter what you do. I don't know if another naut is going to be your answer. It almost sounds like you need to have something fast that can get into his backlines and make him turn around and deal with the threat instead of concentrating on the boyz. Maybe a small squad of skorcha buggies going up the flanks or a min size bike squad? Hit those mortar teams.
If you can get the Kans in close with the Bikes, they can kill a bike with one successful wound. I tried kans again a little while ago and was surprised at how good they are in close combat. Give them KMBs and once they wound themselves, you can choose which wounded kan to put more wounds on, spreading out damage so the unit as a whole survives.
Definitely go for a weirdboy and Da Jump one of those mobs into his backfield or onto an objective. Painboy and wierdboy combo in the center of a couple of mobs will let you smite at max and heal the inevitable perils. Jetbikes don't like Smite, but they have to take it in the face or hang back and be ineffective.
I hadn't thought about jumping Gun Krews...neat.
Oh I totally know now! the extra Naught would also rush his table edge to get in his AM lines. His back field would not have been possible to get behind. He had his 4 squads evenly divided and deployed just far enough to cover the length of his Deployment zone and also threaten just past way across no mans land. Not counting his Autto cannons each squad had. His LRBT's were deployed centr and about as far forward as his Infantry squads but safe behind his 2 squads of 30 conscripts. Him having turn one was good for me because he moved his AC and conscripts forward , my Nauts had advanced to take an objective his rabble were after but hadn't made it to. so were were scoring and he was a few inches out. Over all he didn't need to move anything except those few units. If I had goon that far forward he would have gunned my units down quickly. I had thought about Kommandos maybe. in that game on turn two they would have made a positive gain for me but I haven't looked at what I would change in the list to stick them in. Storm boys might have been a good choice as well. I guess that's what I get for not playing every week these days. lol.
This was also the first time I skipped out on the weir boy and pain boy. My last list had 2 pain boys, 2 weird boys 2 KFF Meks . It's interesting to see what you can do outside of your comfort zone.
I usually have no actual use for my warboss but now that he gets that relic choppa I think he managed to slay 2 Jet Bikers and only took a single wound from one of my own exploding Killa Kans.
I kept thinking his Jet Bike hero was his warlord. but he wasn't.
Given the ton of interesting stratagems people are getting im starting to wonder how we will fare in the stratagems department.
I think a big one for us would be a +1 to wound Rolls stratagem to help us hack through armor a bit easier, so in the case of boyz wounding t7 on 4's and t8 on 5's. Now that said i could see certain targets like other infantry getting mowed down hard by that and might be a bit over powered. Instead perhaps just +1 strength for a unit for a turn, wont help us beat t7 any better but will effect t8 and t4/5 things.
Call it "Frenzied assault" or something. Spend 1 or 2 CP on it.
I assume we will get a double attack one like many other armies got. Or perhaps similar to the tyranid one where they can pile in and attack again.
i would like to see some more shooting related ones to give our shooting phase some real use.
"Morks Blessin" Add 1 to hit rolls for a unit for a shooting phase, could combo well with DakkaDakkaDakka to generate extra shots on 5 and 6 instead of just 6. like tesla that we have to pay cp for...
and im sure im not the first to suggest this but perhaps a strategem to ensure we explode or allows us to reroll the explode result with a +1 Modifier if we fail the first time.
Given that this is a Tactics thread im curious how the stratagems we get will allow us to play to our strengths, which are few right now or to give us new strengths.
Played a game recently that i would have likely won had stratagems not been a factor, I played my cards right and made mostly right decisions, now my luck also turned at the end and i couldnt kill feth all in my shooting phase but i had had enough of a lead to have ended it with melee phases. But a 2cp pile in additional combat phase from a hivetyrant and my Morkanaughts remaining wounds disappear.
So they in alot of cases are tactically very important, and right now we dont have any game changers like that, dakkadakkadakka and the mob up one are not makeing a big impact in most cases.
You guys got ideas for tactically useful Strategems? it might be a bit premature given that we dont know the state of our models for the codex yet but could be an interesting mental exercise.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Given GW's desire to see orks try to roll 6's, I could see them give us one that says pick a unit, that unit hits on 6's regardless of modifiers.
In the game I had last night I ran into that super Eldar sniper. It was disgusting. 48" range, enough AP to give no save, 3damage plus a mortal wound, Character so can't be targeted, an -2 to hit and +2 save in cover even if you can target him. Thanks to the grot oiler, my big mek survived 2 rounds, Called the game before the Warboss got targeted.
Fast moving units is the only way I can think of to get him, Other than using one wierd boy to deepstrike another weird boy to smite him. Deffcoptas might have a use here. Thoughts?
The one use for 'ead banger. One-shots eldar characters on a roll of 4+
On a more serious note, dakka jets. Just jump the jet next to Illic and unload. You still hit on 5+, wound on 2s, so two dakka jets should see him dead on average.
You can also just jump any unit, if there is room to do so. We will most likely not survive combat against any number of orks (T3/5+).
I really like the "Disembark after moving" strategem idea. it seems very orky to me and would give us some uniqueness back being the only army that can do that. even if it is a strategem, and it wouldnt be OP cuz you cna only do it once a turn and maby twice in a game. And it would go a long way to making people happy about taking transports again. and possibly Meganobs!
Locking someone in combat seems awsome, would it effect flyers? or maby downgrade flyers to act like regular troops after running, ie. cannot shoot after retreating. i would prefer completely stuck in.
I think a stratagem for our jets would be cool too, "Bring on the Dakka!" 1cp: You may have a dakka jet/Burnabomba/Blitza bomba or wazbomb shoot its weapons twice this turn in addition to ignoring negative modifiers to hit rolls.
Im wondering if there is a charge distance modifier in the pipes for us, our ere' we go only gets us so far after we jump, it would be nice to have a strategem to make our charges a little more reliable so that our strategy doesnt rely so much on chance, I mean bloodletters get 3d6 charge why cant we? or maby 2d6+2. Its always risky Da Jumping because if it fails, you gotta squad outta position not doing much that just gets mulched like "zeitgeist from the new deadpool movie" on the next turn.
And i really wanna start playing my Meganobs, changing tranports might make me happy to play em again but i think they need a little love, you guys got any ideas on how to make a strategem directed at mega nobs and then how it would come into use for us strategically?
Shrapnelbait wrote: In the game I had last night I ran into that super Eldar sniper. It was disgusting. 48" range, enough AP to give no save, 3damage plus a mortal wound, Character so can't be targeted, an -2 to hit and +2 save in cover even if you can target him. Thanks to the grot oiler, my big mek survived 2 rounds, Called the game before the Warboss got targeted.
Fast moving units is the only way I can think of to get him, Other than using one wierd boy to deepstrike another weird boy to smite him. Deffcoptas might have a use here. Thoughts?
Don't take a lot of characters. Just tide him with 200 boys and let him snipe a random ork each turn.
So, while Gretchen don't have Mob Rule themselves, they still count as Ork for other Proper mobs correct? Seems like yet another reason to keep 30 Gretchen on the board.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So, while Gretchen don't have Mob Rule themselves, they still count as Ork for other Proper mobs correct? Seems like yet another reason to keep 30 Gretchen on the board.
I think their only use in that regard is boosting a weirdboy. Not a bad use, though.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So, while Gretchen don't have Mob Rule themselves, they still count as Ork for other Proper mobs correct? Seems like yet another reason to keep 30 Gretchen on the board.
For what purposes? They count for weirdboy +1. But in case you were planning to use for LD they don't help units with mob rule as it specifically requires unit with mob rule to work.
Not that I need more reasons to field gretchins. They are bloody great.
I thought Mob Rule allowed you to take LD of the number of Orkz, or a neighboring unit of Orkz. Friendly Ork models. Gretchen have the Orkz keyword. Their 31 model count could be used by a Mob rule ork mob. I don't see anything thing that specified you can only use Mob rule on another Mob rule unit. If I put a unit of 30 Gretchen behind a unit of Ork Boyz, that mob can use Mob Rule and take LD 30 from the friendly unit of Orkz 6 inches behind them.
I could be wrong though, I don't have my Index to double check and Google searches are coming up blurry.
EDIT: found it. So Gretchen have a Ork keyword, but aren't considered Bold word Un-capitalized Ork units? Dang. Would it need to be friendly <ORK> unit to be allowed the way I perceive?
More EDIT :
But this seems wrong Oo because there is no unit called Orks. So which is it.
ERRATA
Page 10 – Mob Rule
Change the rule to read:
‘When using the Leadership characteristic of this unit,
you can use either its own Leadership characteristic,
or you can choose for the characteristic to be equal to
either the number of models in the unit, or the number
of models in another friendly unit within 6" that has
this ability.’
Completely off topic but I love that our tactics thread is significantly larger than any other armies, but we havnt even gotten out codex yet.
I know some have started a new thread once they got their codex so that skews it a bit, but I think some of the bigger armies like IG and chaos are still from their index days.
idk I thought it was interesting and im bored waiting for rumors :(
There are a lot of stratagems that I would like to see, but as much as that I'd like to see more special rules right on our units data sheets. Orks are supposed to be the most flavorful faction*, and I don't think there should be a single vanilla unit in the army. A lot of the units that do have one special rule should have two or three.
*Of course I am biased.
I was mostly patient up until the Harlequins and IK codexes. The Custodes release did annoy me a bit. Now it's starting to get pretty trying. Like I have some AoS armies and one of them (Nighthaunt) is getting a big release, so normally I'd be super excited, but my impatience for orks is making me not really enjoy the new Sigmar stuff very much (first world problems).
I don't usually like news dribbled out over a long period of time, but just a little info on what's coming and a rough timeframe would be much appreciated.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Anyone else getting pretty tired of all the Knight gak on the facebook community page? We've had only Knight news for what, a month now? Two?
I'm getting sick of it, GW need to pull their fingers out and start releasing some Ork news.
I think they might be in a weird place where they both don't want to distract from AoS 2, so they're not announcing anything major, but they also don't want to totally ignore 40k so they're putting out little things that are boring for us that are still waiting.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Anyone else getting pretty tired of all the Knight gak on the facebook community page? We've had only Knight news for what, a month now? Two?
I'm getting sick of it, GW need to pull their fingers out and start releasing some Ork news.
Well seeing as Chaos got renegade knights and AdMech got their Secutarii "by popular demand", we oughta be able to get looted knights and vehicle rules if we make enough noise.
Might have datasheets ready by the time the codex goes live, cause we can be dang sure they aren't gonna be in there.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I think they might be in a weird place where they both don't want to distract from AoS 2, so they're not announcing anything major, but they also don't want to totally ignore 40k so they're putting out little things that are boring for us that are still waiting.
Thats my thought too. If on 7/1 we dont have a full preview and rumors flowing im going to riot! jkjk I have a sinking feeling im hyping myself up for disappointment because SW will come first or something.
My FLGS closed in June, and a new one is opening up mid July. Was hoping to take claim to the new shop with a huge Ork army, but I may have to switch gears.
Im gonna flip a table if Space Wolves come out first
The wolves will likely come first, but i imagine we will be hot on their heels, i had heard rumor some months back in thsi thread that it might be a wolves and orks boxset release, potentially revealing new models for both armies. I love fighting spacewolves so i am happy if thats the reality.
I'm curious fellas I've been hearing alot of speculation that things without new models or current box kits (Buggies, Deff Koptas ect.) will probably be left out of the Codex and left as an index only entry, think that'll be the case?
gmaleron wrote: I'm curious fellas I've been hearing alot of speculation that things without new models or current box kits (Buggies, Deff Koptas ect.) will probably be left out of the Codex and left as an index only entry, think that'll be the case?
Nah, buggies got a point reduction in one of the FAQs if I remember. Can't see GW doing that if they are going to ditch them. I know people are dying for new buggies, so maybe there will be a new model. Other than Stormboyz, coptas are the only thing we have that flies without being a jet. It would be pretty lame if they got axed.
Buggies have long been rumored as coming however I suspect traks, skorchas, and buggies arenhavibg a drastic overhaul and won’t be exactly as they were.
Deffkoptas still have a kit that’s sold.
All rumors report to drastic changes in the codex however even if staples such as doc on bike or mek on bike are gone the index still allows thier use this edition.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I think they might be in a weird place where they both don't want to distract from AoS 2, so they're not announcing anything major, but they also don't want to totally ignore 40k so they're putting out little things that are boring for us that are still waiting.
Thats my thought too. If on 7/1 we dont have a full preview and rumors flowing im going to riot! jkjk I have a sinking feeling im hyping myself up for disappointment because SW will come first or something.
If Space Wolves come first that might mean it's more likely that we get some new models.
I'd actually like an Orks vs Ork GSC box more than an Orks vs Space Wolves box. I doubt that will happen though.
The NOVA tournament is in late August/early September, I wonder if we'll have to wait until then to hear anything? I don't know if there are any big events before that. They've got lots of other things that are supposed to be coming (Kill Team/Rogue Trader, Adeptus Titanicus, Nighthaunt battletome) so I think that makes predicting timeframes a little difficult.
I'm down for most anything, but I must admit the closer we get without any news the more paranoid I get they're going to do something really stupid like redo the whole line as the "Krork" which are gigantic Orks that stand upright, speak properly and are very neat and organized because some people want orks to be more "serious."
gmaleron wrote: You mean the old crappy metal one? They dont sell Black Reach anymore I thought
technically you can actually buy the Black Reach deffkoptas new, just not from GW stores, and only a single model as part of a larger set...GW partnered with Revell to release these "Build+Paint" kits...there's also one for the old gorkamorka trukk, and the old-style ork warbike too...
gungo wrote: Buggies have long been rumored as coming however I suspect traks, skorchas, and buggies arenhavibg a drastic overhaul and won’t be exactly as they were.
Deffkoptas still have a kit that’s sold.
All rumors report to drastic changes in the codex however even if staples such as doc on bike or mek on bike are gone the index still allows thier use this edition.
I fully expect the indices to stop seeing use once Sisters have gotten their codex. Either because tournaments will start dropping them and people will follow suit, or because the index stuff simply doesn't get point/rule adjustments anymore and thus will be too bad to be field in matched play.
Therefore anything lost to the codex might eventually be lost for good to people playing matched play.
Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, GW did not hint in any way that they will stop supporting index choices.
I wont be able to stand looking at the news and rumors and being flooded with Space Marines with the words "Wolf, Ice, Storm, Rune etc" plastered over them every time I hope for Ork rumors
Billagio wrote: I wont be able to stand looking at the news and rumors and being flooded with Space Marines with the words "Wolf, Ice, Storm, Rune etc" plastered over them every time I hope for Ork rumors
Billagio wrote: I wont be able to stand looking at the news and rumors and being flooded with Space Marines with the words "Wolf, Ice, Storm, Rune etc" plastered over them every time I hope for Ork rumors
Billagio wrote: I wont be able to stand looking at the news and rumors and being flooded with Space Marines with the words "Wolf, Ice, Storm, Rune etc" plastered over them every time I hope for Ork rumors
You know your faction has gone a little bit too silly when Ork players are making fun of it.
Although a lot of the new names for many factions seem weird and bother me a bit. Even for Orks, I don't like the name "Deffstorm Mega Shoota" very much, but that's personal preference.
Billagio wrote: I wont be able to stand looking at the news and rumors and being flooded with Space Marines with the words "Wolf, Ice, Storm, Rune etc" plastered over them every time I hope for Ork rumors
Billagio wrote: I wont be able to stand looking at the news and rumors and being flooded with Space Marines with the words "Wolf, Ice, Storm, Rune etc" plastered over them every time I hope for Ork rumors
You know your faction has gone a little bit too silly when Ork players are making fun of it.
Although a lot of the new names for many factions seem weird and bother me a bit. Even for Orks, I don't like the name "Deffstorm Mega Shoota" very much, but that's personal preference.
So, I finally got my lazy ass going and am building a bunch of Kommandos out of Chaos Warriors from Fantasy (age of blah blah blah) and using Ork armys/heads...and then i discovered that Ork heads and Chaos bodies don't mesh because ork heads are designed to be placed on a neck, Chaos warriors don't have necks stupid neckless wonders. So anyway, taking a break from that while I await a new order of Green stuff to come in, however in the meantime I have started assembling and painting my last 5 Deff Koptas, maybe if I am lucky they won't suck horribly after the codex. That and the rest of speedfreaks in general.
After my last game I was thinking. My warboss needs more attacks. Turns out there is a warlord trait for that.
Anyone use it? My Boss only took a single wound and I trait to 6 it off but of course failed. So it's seeming like a pointless trait over an extra attack hitting on a 2+. (with the HWKC.)
warhead01 wrote: After my last game I was thinking. My warboss needs more attacks. Turns out there is a warlord trait for that.
Anyone use it? My Boss only took a single wound and I trait to 6 it off but of course failed. So it's seeming like a pointless trait over an extra attack hitting on a 2+. (with the HWKC.)
Well, in fairness, ALL warlord traits currently available to orks are useless. The extra attack one also only works on the charge. I personally use the 6+ FNP one, as it's always active, but I understand it's pretty much the choice of one useless trait over another.
koooaei wrote: I prefer +1 attack on ghaz. Though, theoretically, +1 str is a bit better vs t7.
It always feels weird to me that Ghaz has so few attacks. He is supposed to be a CC wrecking Machine (and he kind of is) but his # of attacks should be at least 2 higher, and that is before you add his charge bonus and that warlord trait.
Compared to most CC characters he does have a lot attacks though. Outside of Khorne models, most characters and walkers have 4 or less attacks, Thraka can get up to 7 on the charge.
I always take the +1 attack trait on my Warboss/Ghazghkull warlord. I figure it's more likely to be more useful, more often, than the alternatives.
For our Index Ghazghkull is pretty good but I don't think he's very good for his points or particularly good compared to combat/buff HQs in other factions. I'm hoping he gets a datasheet worthy of his name in the codex.
Thanks for the thoughts on that warlord trait.
I think I will give it a shot for the next 10 games, if I can play that many before the codex is out.
My thoughts are my warboss killed at least two AC Jetbiker guys in my last game and only took one wound all game which was self inflicted due to an exploding Kan.
But my Boss did charge, I was trying to stack the combats in my favor by having a lot of things stuck in. I mean it was that to just be gunned down with noting to do but pick up models...
Often I've thought about a buff by warpath but that's far better on a full unit of boys or just any unit with more than one model in it. I don't use Ghaz. No interest in him in games only at 2000 points. And my usual Scrumgrod would find a way to kill him before I could do anything cool with him.
I used two Gorkanauts in my last list and 5 Killa Kans but I think I'll try 3 next time and see what happens. the Kans were kinda impressive in combat even getting them selves killed their Kan Klaw is kinda killy if it get through.
If GW is trying to hype the new AoS really hard then I wouldn't be all that surprised if there was another solid week of AoS stuff after the big release this weekend.
Definitely a possibility. We might start getting leaks after saturday but no solid release news for a couple weeks yet (and even then it might not be orks)
Edit: By solid news I mean an official announcement by GW of the next codex and associated new stuff for it
Man, I finally witnessed how bad -1 to hit stuff is for Orks. Fought my friend's Tyrannids and in a full round of shooting I was able to kill 1 venomthrope and 3 termagaunts. Felt bad.
Also kind of felt I couldn't really deal with the Swarmlord. His invluln is bonkers.
I was pretty bummed for most of the game cuz everything was absolutely not going my way but then my Dakkajet blew up and everything was better. Literally every one of my vehicles that died blew up and that was pretty great. Also, brought a Morkanaut but his KFF didn't really come into play that much unfortunately. Other than that he plinked away at a Tyrannofex and dealt a nice amount of wounds to a Flyrant in melee.
My only experience playing against 'Nids (and this was Index 'Nids) was against a list focused on melee. His units got across the board really fast, but then my Boyz-heavy list ate him for breakfast. His Venomthropes did a good job at protecting his units from my Big Gunz, though. Things are probably different with the Tyranids Codex being out now.
In my limited experience it seems like melee armies that focus on speed (namely some Tyranid and deep-striking Space Marine lists) struggle against Green Tide.
It was on the shooty side but he had a unit of 20 genestealers. I tried to Da Jump my 30 boyz unit to take em out cuz they're scary but they failed their charge
My only experience playing against 'Nids (and this was Index 'Nids) was against a list focused on melee. His units got across the board really fast, but then my Boyz-heavy list ate him for breakfast. His Venomthropes did a good job at protecting his units from my Big Gunz, though. Things are probably different with the Tyranids Codex being out now.
In my limited experience it seems like melee armies that focus on speed (namely some Tyranid and deep-striking Space Marine lists) struggle against Green Tide.
(Codex) shooting nids are awful. The nid player just pics your units to die, and then they die. 3 shot devourers, easily buffable and replenishable, just annihilates orks.
GreatGranpapy wrote: It was on the shooty side but he had a unit of 20 genestealers. I tried to Da Jump my 30 boyz unit to take em out cuz they're scary but they failed their charge
I'm starting to get less and less eager of the da jump charge. Anything that is 50-50 and more often than not ends up dead boyz unit if I fail...I might feel more eager if I had 5 or 6 but losing 1/4 of my boyz without archieving anything starts to feel seeing how boyz are being blown to bits by modern shooting...
I find using da jump more for objective play rather than charges these days.
My only experience playing against 'Nids (and this was Index 'Nids) was against a list focused on melee. His units got across the board really fast, but then my Boyz-heavy list ate him for breakfast. His Venomthropes did a good job at protecting his units from my Big Gunz, though. Things are probably different with the Tyranids Codex being out now.
In my limited experience it seems like melee armies that focus on speed (namely some Tyranid and deep-striking Space Marine lists) struggle against Green Tide.
(Codex) shooting nids are awful. The nid player just pics your units to die, and then they die. 3 shot devourers, easily buffable and replenishable, just annihilates orks.
Ya, he had a full unit of termagaunts with devourers that shredded my dudes. He used the shoot again strat on them as well. Did not feel good let me tell ya. Also had a dakka Tyrannofex and a unit of 5 (I think) Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons. His Hive Guard dakka'd my Dakkajet but it killed one on it's way to the Great WAAAGH!! in Da Sky. When he shot with them again at my trukk with Meganobz that was going for them my trukk survived with 3 wounds, so that Dakkajet was a hero. The next turn my Meganob + Big Mek in Mega Armor goon squad took his Hive Guard to pound town. Still lost anyway but as I said, when that jet blew up I got back in the Orky mindset and just had fun killing his stuff.
There's just something about playing Orks and having your vehicles blow up on your enemy.
Ya, he had a full unit of termagaunts with devourers that shredded my dudes. He used the shoot again strat on them as well. Did not feel good let me tell ya. Also had a dakka Tyrannofex and a unit of 5 (I think) Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons. His Hive Guard dakka'd my Dakkajet but it killed one on it's way to the Great WAAAGH!! in Da Sky. When he shot with them again at my trukk with Meganobz that was going for them my trukk survived with 3 wounds, so that Dakkajet was a hero. The next turn my Meganob + Big Mek in Mega Armor goon squad took his Hive Guard to pound town. Still lost anyway but as I said, when that jet blew up I got back in the Orky mindset and just had fun killing his stuff.
There's just something about playing Orks and having your vehicles blow up on your enemy.
Things like that make me think we need an interesting STratagem, like how Eldar have that one that lets them shoot at deepstrikers, but instead we can have a chance to charge em as they come into play.
Not sure what to call it [Get em boyz! / Krump the sneakies / ???] [2cp] When an enemy unit comes into play within 12" of a [Infantry] squad of yours, you can declare a preemptive charge and attempt to enter combat with the squad arriving. This Charge is done at the start of the shooting phase.
I dont think it would be overpowered really because its just a chance to get them. It could be altered to be "move your squad into combat with the enemy squad at the end of the shooting phase" or attempt the charge after the shooting phase" I think it could work but im not sure how that would feel balance wise but it would certainly discourage all but the heartiest deepstrikers trying to get the drop on our boyz even if it was say just a chance of getting charged on their own turn.
That....would actually be pretty nice. I can imagine the rage now!
Has anyone here used a AoS Megaboss as a warboss? Is he of comparable size? Ive seen some pretty good conversions (theres a good one on the megabosses page on the GW store) where they have him with a PK. Does anyone have a good PK to use? All the ones I can think of are too big or too small. Maybe he used plasticard to make one.
Ya, he had a full unit of termagaunts with devourers that shredded my dudes. He used the shoot again strat on them as well. Did not feel good let me tell ya. Also had a dakka Tyrannofex and a unit of 5 (I think) Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons. His Hive Guard dakka'd my Dakkajet but it killed one on it's way to the Great WAAAGH!! in Da Sky. When he shot with them again at my trukk with Meganobz that was going for them my trukk survived with 3 wounds, so that Dakkajet was a hero. The next turn my Meganob + Big Mek in Mega Armor goon squad took his Hive Guard to pound town. Still lost anyway but as I said, when that jet blew up I got back in the Orky mindset and just had fun killing his stuff.
There's just something about playing Orks and having your vehicles blow up on your enemy.
Things like that make me think we need an interesting STratagem, like how Eldar have that one that lets them shoot at deepstrikers, but instead we can have a chance to charge em as they come into play.
Not sure what to call it [Get em boyz! / Krump the sneakies / ???] [2cp] When an enemy unit comes into play within 12" of a [Infantry] squad of yours, you can declare a preemptive charge and attempt to enter combat with the squad arriving. This Charge is done at the start of the shooting phase.
I dont think it would be overpowered really because its just a chance to get them. It could be altered to be "move your squad into combat with the enemy squad at the end of the shooting phase" or attempt the charge after the shooting phase" I think it could work but im not sure how that would feel balance wise but it would certainly discourage all but the heartiest deepstrikers trying to get the drop on our boyz even if it was say just a chance of getting charged on their own turn.
I can imagine the rage!
Custodes can charge during enemy turns with a stratagem, so such a stratagem could be actually be done for orks.
Dojo wrote: Things like that make me think we need an interesting STratagem, like how Eldar have that one that lets them shoot at deepstrikers, but instead we can have a chance to charge em as they come into play.
Not sure what to call it [Get em boyz! / Krump the sneakies / ???] [2cp] When an enemy unit comes into play within 12" of a [Infantry] squad of yours, you can declare a preemptive charge and attempt to enter combat with the squad arriving. This Charge is done at the start of the shooting phase.
I dont think it would be overpowered really because its just a chance to get them. It could be altered to be "move your squad into combat with the enemy squad at the end of the shooting phase" or attempt the charge after the shooting phase" I think it could work but im not sure how that would feel balance wise but it would certainly discourage all but the heartiest deepstrikers trying to get the drop on our boyz even if it was say just a chance of getting charged on their own turn.
I can imagine the rage!
Would be pretty lousy. 2CP, enemy simply deployes like 11.1" away which doesn't affect most models shooting and you need to roll 11"+ to charge. Whee.
Jidmah wrote: Or you just don't spend the CP and your opponent deployed 11" away for free, ruining his own chances for a charge.
Most DZ chargers are 3d6 often with reroll. Normal 2d6" charge is very risky even if you have rerolls. Orks have it good with 50-50 chance. But that's still not something to rely on. So his not really ruinning. Sure he's adding 1-2" more he needs to roll but still is needing to roll average without rerolls(1 dice he's quaranteed anyway).
Rest of DZ's are shooters. They don't care if their charge is ruined as they wouldn't be charging anyway. "bohoo my scions can't charge". Ummmm...They wouldn't anyway.
Yup, Da Jump is a good tactic and is probably the best psychic power we have this edition so far, but you are right, its basically a 50/50 about whether or not you are going to be successful in a single charge, or lose 1/4th to 1/6th of your boyz.
With the rule of 3 and the nerf to Alpha Deep Strike our only viable tactic right now is horde and I have long since reached my breaking point with Horde in a tournament environment. I am done playing tournaments until we get something that doesn't involve me moving 250 models a turn.
It's not even the moving for me that's killing me as I have movement trays and aren't interested in optimizing every move so it doesn't take so much time. It's more of the god awful amount of dices we roll and THEN DO NOTHING! It's frustrating to take up piles of models every turn and not have anything reach in numbers to make an impression. Might help if tables were more barren but terrain also has habit of creating road blocks which means enemy can use to divide&conquer.
And then even if we hit into combat it is hard to cause huge casualties and often first line is just chaff anyway so we get exposed to more firing. Losing mob per turn isn't sustainable at this rate.
But how GW plans to fix this...Elite orks that have like 5++ 6+++ W2 doesn't appeal either. Orks should be horde army. But GW has been pushing model counts so high to sell models that it's very hard to make ork hordes to a) feel like horde compared to enemy b) make an impact. Native FNP would certainly help with ork survivability but would add more dice. It's annoying to play dark eldars with their 6+++. Imagine ork army with 250+ models...Especially as FNP vs multi damage weapons just suck rolling. Fun doing 10 knight stomp attacks vs W2 6+++ targets and have to resolve those one at a bloody time.
When you have WSBS 3+ 5+ 6+++ save guys for like 6 pts running around there...Sure S3 T3 but guns and quantity. Plague bearers are fairly easy to have in big piles, bloodletters too. Stealer carpets aren't unusual.
Assault Dice GW app, it's awesome dude. You will never go back to rolling buckets with your hands.
edit: sorry after reading your post more closely it seems you were not annoyed at the time it takes to roll dice, you were just complaining. Ignore me!
hollow one wrote: Assault Dice GW app, it's awesome dude. You will never go back to rolling buckets with your hands.
edit: sorry after reading your post more closely it seems you were not annoyed at the time it takes to roll dice, you were just complaining. Ignore me!
I tried getting dice app in use. Of course have yet to find anybody in tournament etc to agree. No surprise seeing those can be faked. Could even do it myself if I wanted and then have bunch of 1's roll bit more 3's and 4's than odds say...And short of somebody doing long extensive statistical analyze of what results I get with my app nobody would be wiser. During one game nobody would even get hint of a suspicion. So I'm not surprised at all nobody outside friend circle trusts. Nevermind the inherit unrandomness of computer random which isn't true random but pseudo random.
But how nice of you just dismiss as mere complaining. Shows more about you and not in a good way.
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Jidmah wrote: So, you're saying that giving your opponent a 50% chance to fail with 3d6+1 charge range for zero cost is bad?
Cool.
50%? Opponent needs to roll 10", has minimum of 1 dice rerolled, often all...That does not 50-50 equal. It's far more likely than orks do charge after da jump. Maybe do some math?
And sure it's not all bad but it's not miracle maker that is going to help orks much. In reality effect is going to be fairly minimal rarely seen. Would you go over the moons getting +1LD for grots? Or 1 pts point drop in battlewagon?
Going back to the tactical issues at hand,
1) trying to do damage to -1 to hit units
2) da jump being a gamble at 50/50 charge odds
Is it possible that there are alternate solutions that may work? For example, having huge mobs of boyz in the backfield is a big threat, so if they miss the charge, they are going to be focused down and die for sure. Solution, da jump a cheaper less threatening unit that makes your opponent make a tough choice of what to shoot.
-1 to hit is pretty common now, but many factions have it as a "more than 12 inches" rule. I present to you: Da Jump a unit of 30 Gretchen. Sounds ridiculous, but consider that they are inside the 12" bubble so don't have -1, they are cheap and expendable so you don't care if they die (just means shots not coming at your boyz), they are 3+ to hit when they show up, and if they actually make the charge.
They can tie units up, capture objectives, and if there is only a few left they can hide, but still score Linebreaker objectives.
Turn two, da Jump a unit of 30 shoota boyz behind the gretchen and use the Dakka strategem. At this point you can drop Kommandoes in as well, and probably make those Advance and charge rolls with the choppa boyz/warboss.
Brilliant, probably not, but possibly a way to get around things until they get better.
I've found myself using Da Jump more often for cheap, throw-away units more than trying to get a giant mob into the enemy lines first turn.
I just noticed that the new recommend base size for AoS Orruks (orcs) is 32mm. I was already thinking about moving my Boyz from 25 to 32 anyways, but I was wondering if this standard in AoS might be an indication of the way things are going to go in 40k?
Larger bases on Boyz would mostly be bad from a competitive standpoint, as it would make it harder to get as many Boyz into combat and to fit as many under a KFF. On the plus side it would give us even better board control (also Boyz that are less likely to tip over and maybe look a bit better).
I'm going to wait until the codex comes out and we have a better idea on where things are going before I make any decisions on rebasing. Pretty much all my hobby projects are on hold until we know more.
Jidmah wrote: Because a 20% drop in successfully completing a 3d6"+1 charge is equal to reducing battlewagons by one point.
Cool.
Other awesome points made by tneva82:
- Units that charge less than 3d6+1" with re-rolls don't exist anywhere in any game ever.
Yes they exists. But not many of those are used on deep strikes because THEY AREN'T WORTH IT unless they have something awesome going on. Like being very spammable so they don't even care about ork unit and indeed are happy to spend 2 CP. 2d6" charge deep strike is simply so unreliable you cannot make plan for it in competive enviroment. Even orks with da jump can't really make plan for it and orks have it better than most.
So this would be situational boost that won't make much of impact. This kind of "improvements" is exactly what I worry GW will do. Sounds cool but actually doesn't help orks actually becoming useful army. The orks need hell of a lot more love than this one that doesn't make any impact most of the time. Deep strike is mostly realm of shooty guns rather than assaulters. And the assaulters that do it don't rely on 2d6" charges. For a good reason. It...Is...Too...Unreliable.
Orks should not rely on deep strike assaults. And we have it better than most as we have native rerolls. But even then it's too unreliable to plan for.
-1 to hit is pretty common now, but many factions have it as a "more than 12 inches" rule. I present to you: Da Jump a unit of 30 Gretchen. Sounds ridiculous, but consider that they are inside the 12" bubble so don't have -1, they are cheap and expendable so you don't care if they die (just means shots not coming at your boyz), they are 3+ to hit when they show up, and if they actually make the charge.
They can tie units up, capture objectives, and if there is only a few left they can hide, but still score Linebreaker objectives.
Been what I have been doing actually. Not really to kill though but to provide dirt cheap blocks for enemy. Divide&conquer. Split part of enemy army with grots, head for other side with boyz.
Hell can't wait to do this for h2h heavy knights. Dirt cheap grot wall they cannot get past. Sure guns kill them by droves and stomps clear them fast but there's plenty more where they came from and they are spending 400-600 pts to clear them and I'm meanwhile stopping like 1000-1500 pts moving much(60" wide wall they can't walk past is fun. Knights can be happy we can't do this for multiple squads in one turn or I would basically layer no-man land with gretchin squads ensuring they pretty much never will get to my DZ. Now at least where 2nd gretchin squad lands will be further toward me than first one).
I think that’s the best and most obvious one. I can’t think of any others off the top of my head besides something like the old sky fire rules where you could shoot deepstrikers before they land or something
I'm hoping for a strategem that lets us negate the fly keyword for a turn after a successful charge. It would be nice to be able to lock a Fireprism or Riptide into combat.
Dojo wrote:How Would You guys make a Defensive Ork Strategem for dealing with Deepstrikers?
I think the chance to charge before they even shoot would be great.
Love it! THAT WOULD BE EPIC.
Shrapnelbait wrote:I'm hoping for a strategem that lets us negate the fly keyword for a turn after a successful charge. It would be nice to be able to lock a Fireprism or Riptide into combat.
Like this too;
"Horde Swarm" - Da Boyz cling on for dear life hackin' an' bashin' an' stabbin' anyfing they can. Fly keyword is negated for any unit locked in combat with the specified ork boyz unit as they attempt to shake off the mass of filthy xenos scum
Could even have it as a stormboyz stratagem, giving them a great role as a mobile pinning unit, Or if locking them in combat is too much, maybe it limits their escape distance? or gives them a free attempt at a re-charge, like a secondary boost or something.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I've found myself using Da Jump more often for cheap, throw-away units more than trying to get a giant mob into the enemy lines first turn.
I just noticed that the new recommend base size for AoS Orruks (orcs) is 32mm. I was already thinking about moving my Boyz from 25 to 32 anyways, but I was wondering if this standard in AoS might be an indication of the way things are going to go in 40k?
Larger bases on Boyz would mostly be bad from a competitive standpoint, as it would make it harder to get as many Boyz into combat and to fit as many under a KFF. On the plus side it would give us even better board control (also Boyz that are less likely to tip over and maybe look a bit better).
I'm going to wait until the codex comes out and we have a better idea on where things are going before I make any decisions on rebasing. Pretty much all my hobby projects are on hold until we know more.
Jidmah wrote: 3 CP "Use after a unit has completed its fallback move from an ORK INFANTRY unit. That ORK unit immediately fights again."
Probably too strong, but hilarious.
Oh groovy. 3CP and you get to move the 3" pile in and fight. Do you think enemy will let you pile in into combat after fall backing?
Yet another super situational strategem that doesn't really help orks. When core is bad these kinds of hyper situational strategems don't make army any more competive.
Just dissallow enemy units to leave combat for 3 CP. Tbh I think it is more of a problem with melee in 8th in general, rather than specific problem of orks. I do agree with tneva on deepstrike charges - as they are right now you can't make a reliable plan around a coin flip that loses you the game on loss
Would it kill you to think about the fething thing for a second before polluting the forum with even more negativity?
Try falling back from a mob of orks with an infantry unit if they get to pile in and consolidate immediately after.
Also considering that these stratagems can only be in the new codex every assumption about the core of the army is nonsense.
Every single one of your responses amounts to "every thing the previous person said sucks". How about actually contributing something to the discussion for a change?
JawRippa wrote: Just dissallow enemy units to leave combat for 3 CP. Tbh I think it is more of a problem with melee in 8th in general, rather than specific problem of orks. I do agree with tneva on deepstrike charges - as they are right now you can't make a reliable plan around a coin flip that loses you the game on loss
Now THAT strategem would actually be something that would help a lot orks. 3CP is bit steep but then again 18CP isn't super expensive for orks so not unplayably expensive and it would certainly help keeping boyz alive. Especially as orks are slowish so they can't do the "trap one model preventing fall back" as easily as some genestealers.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I've found myself using Da Jump more often for cheap, throw-away units more than trying to get a giant mob into the enemy lines first turn.
I just noticed that the new recommend base size for AoS Orruks (orcs) is 32mm. I was already thinking about moving my Boyz from 25 to 32 anyways, but I was wondering if this standard in AoS might be an indication of the way things are going to go in 40k?
Larger bases on Boyz would mostly be bad from a competitive standpoint, as it would make it harder to get as many Boyz into combat and to fit as many under a KFF. On the plus side it would give us even better board control (also Boyz that are less likely to tip over and maybe look a bit better).
I'm going to wait until the codex comes out and we have a better idea on where things are going before I make any decisions on rebasing. Pretty much all my hobby projects are on hold until we know more.
I think 32mm on Boyz would make unit footprints absolutely enormous so I hope 25mm stays. But Nobz could definitely use 32mm or even 40mm.
The thing with AoS is not every Orc is on the same size base. It's a do what ever you think looks good kinda system. My Bonesplitterz came with 32's so they are on 32's.
I don't like Iron Jaws so I don't own any and have no idea what base sizes they use but I imagine they are on both 32 and 40 MM bases and larger for larger models but they are using old Black Orcs as well as the new larger models so it works. I'm half way through rebasing my Orks now, (Making really cool scrap yard bases.) still on 25MM bases for boys and 32's for Nobs. But as far as I know 8th doesn't enforce any basing standards. I don't go to any major tournaments or what have you so it's not a problem I expect to deal with, should GW put out a "recommended base size guide" like they are for AoS E2. Even then it's only their recommendations to help tournament play and Major events so no ones going to mess with me about my bases. Frankly I am thinking about looking for 20MM rounds for all of my grots, they're small, why not put them on smaller bases. But they are already finished so probably wont bother to do that at this point.
If we get a new kit where the models are a bit larger and supplied with 32's then no problem they'll be on 32's.
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Jidmah wrote: Would it kill you to think about the fething thing for a second before polluting the forum with even more negativity?
Try falling back from a mob of orks with an infantry unit if they get to pile in and consolidate immediately after.
Also considering that these stratagems can only be in the new codex every assumption about the core of the army is nonsense.
Every single one of your responses amounts to "every thing the previous person said sucks".
How about actually contributing something to the discussion for a change?
Exactly. I'd use this one it would let me gain objectives or at least take them away from my opponents so they ha to fight for them possibly taking points away from them on their own turn. It forces their hand they would have to stay in combat to protect what they have or commit more force to wipe out my units. Just the possibility that my orks could do something near a crucial point on the table is powerful.
You can't think strictly in terms of butchering the enemy, you need to think about taking their lunch money as well.
Jidmah wrote: Would it kill you to think about the fething thing for a second before polluting the forum with even more negativity?
Try falling back from a mob of orks with an infantry unit if they get to pile in and consolidate immediately after.
Also considering that these stratagems can only be in the new codex every assumption about the core of the army is nonsense.
Every single one of your responses amounts to "every thing the previous person said sucks".
How about actually contributing something to the discussion for a change?
Ah yes trying to point out why strategem isn't awesome and maybe think better one is just polluting with negativity.
Hopefully GW developers are doing better job than you thinking of useful. Any normal unit can move so far the orks won't actually attack when they use this strategem. you spent 3CP for nothing.
If there's super situational strategem that won't be helpful I point it out rather than pretend it's great awesome strategy. This way maybe there might be born useful strategem...
But guess concept of "dig holes, see how it could be improved" is too advanced concept for you and you are just happy with whatever first version is. And then wonder later why it sucks. But generally "think first do later" leads to better result than "do first, then start to think" which clerarly is your modus operandi.
If you just go "lalallalalalalalalaaala there are no problems everything is fine" then you end up like what GW has. Rules that don't work(you literally cannot play 8th ed RAW) and balance totally broken. If there's problem you need to a) admit there's problem b) think how to fix it. Not pretend there isn't problem.
I seriously hope you never get to design game since any 1st draft for you is sacred inviolable perfect masterwork of genius and heaven forbid anybody to point out even obvious flaws in it.
Oh and if you think core of army will be changed you need to provide those changes if you want those to be factored in with strategem. Otherwise your arqument is 100% worthless. Provide what other changes there are or shut up about claiming "but core will be changed"
Now next do everybody a favour and go read game design ABC. You will learn for example 1st version is never perfect.
Jidmah wrote: Because a 20% drop in successfully completing a 3d6"+1 charge is equal to reducing battlewagons by one point.
Cool.
Other awesome points made by tneva82:
- Units that charge less than 3d6+1" with re-rolls don't exist anywhere in any game ever.
Yes they exists. But not many of those are used on deep strikes because THEY AREN'T WORTH IT unless they have something awesome going on. Like being very spammable so they don't even care about ork unit and indeed are happy to spend 2 CP. 2d6" charge deep strike is simply so unreliable you cannot make plan for it in competive enviroment. Even orks with da jump can't really make plan for it and orks have it better than most.
So this would be situational boost that won't make much of impact. This kind of "improvements" is exactly what I worry GW will do. Sounds cool but actually doesn't help orks actually becoming useful army. The orks need hell of a lot more love than this one that doesn't make any impact most of the time. Deep strike is mostly realm of shooty guns rather than assaulters. And the assaulters that do it don't rely on 2d6" charges. For a good reason. It...Is...Too...Unreliable.
Orks should not rely on deep strike assaults. And we have it better than most as we have native rerolls. But even then it's too unreliable to plan for.
-1 to hit is pretty common now, but many factions have it as a "more than 12 inches" rule. I present to you: Da Jump a unit of 30 Gretchen. Sounds ridiculous, but consider that they are inside the 12" bubble so don't have -1, they are cheap and expendable so you don't care if they die (just means shots not coming at your boyz), they are 3+ to hit when they show up, and if they actually make the charge.
They can tie units up, capture objectives, and if there is only a few left they can hide, but still score Linebreaker objectives.
Been what I have been doing actually. Not really to kill though but to provide dirt cheap blocks for enemy. Divide&conquer. Split part of enemy army with grots, head for other side with boyz.
Hell can't wait to do this for h2h heavy knights. Dirt cheap grot wall they cannot get past. Sure guns kill them by droves and stomps clear them fast but there's plenty more where they came from and they are spending 400-600 pts to clear them and I'm meanwhile stopping like 1000-1500 pts moving much(60" wide wall they can't walk past is fun. Knights can be happy we can't do this for multiple squads in one turn or I would basically layer no-man land with gretchin squads ensuring they pretty much never will get to my DZ. Now at least where 2nd gretchin squad lands will be further toward me than first one).
I thought units with titanic can walk over other units. I guess if you space them to max coherency and fill up choke points on the battlefield the gretchin could be effective roadblocks. But not in open terrain if they are in a line and can just be stepped over.
Edit: it seems it is only when falling back. But still they stomp you for a turn then fallback , however going forward over the grots, then shoot your other units before charging. So it seem as though it would help for a turn. Like a speed bump. I have killed a knight in just over 1 turn with a 30 boy squad( I charged it and then finished it on opponents turn). With back up from ghaz and his buff as well as a banner nob. The knight players mistake was to single out ghaz and still take tons of dice from the boyz.
Just to spell it out, since you are obviously don't now as much as the basic rules:
"Fight again" with no enemies in range, means "move 6" towards the closest enemy unit".
Any normal unit can move so far the orks won't actually attack when they use this strategem. you spent 3CP for nothing.
Most "normal units" can't move more than 7". You simply follow them and lock them in combat again. They can't shoot, you cannot be shot and you get to fight them in the combat phase of the enemy turn.
- Or -
You use your pile in move to lock down even more units, since the bubble wrap just fell back, allowing you fight those units, and still not getting shot.
- Or -
You just fight again with any unit locked in combat in addition to the one that fell back, potentially killing off characters or units that were subject of a multi-charge or pile-in before they can fall back as well.
You get a lot more than just "the enemy can't fall back" for your CP, unless you are fighting a unit with more than 7" movement speed without any other units within 7".
Jidmah wrote: Just to spell it out, since you are obviously don't now as much as the basic rules:
"Fight again" with no enemies in range, means "move 6" towards the closest enemy unit".
Any normal unit can move so far the orks won't actually attack when they use this strategem. you spent 3CP for nothing.
Most "normal units" can't move more than 7". You simply follow them and lock them in combat again. They can't shoot, you cannot be shot and you get to fight them in the combat phase of the enemy turn.
- Or -
You use your pile in move to lock down even more units, since the bubble wrap just fell back, allowing you fight those units, and still not getting shot.
- Or -
You just fight again with any unit locked in combat in addition to the one that fell back, potentially killing off characters or units that were subject of a multi-charge or pile-in before they can fall back as well.
You get a lot more than just "the enemy can't fall back" for your CP, unless you are fighting a unit with more than 7" movement speed without any other units within 7".
This would be brilliant.
Turn one Mob up 10+30 boys and jump, attempt charge.
If the charge works good! Turn two Move Storm boys right up for an easy charge, pop Kommandos 10+15, mob up ready to charge. Jump in another 30 boys for another charge.
if that first 40 was able to trap a falling back unit and lock another unit. The other player is trapped congested and stuck.
Mean while gorts and trukks or takks move onto objectives. Artillery pound the enemy units like tanks or single model units you just want to soften up.
Sounds like a good game probably over in 3 turns. But it depends on the mission and the opponent. I like it.
Just locking a unit on combat "the other way" seems strange with out addressing units that fly. does this lock them as well? Probably not. So if they are common place then the first version is stronger as things like Harlequins just ninja flip away because of their own rules so you probably didn't spend the CP's ahead of time. The first version I think is a lot more powerful.
I don't think it's a bad stratagem, it would let you conceivably catch any unit with less than 8" of movement, which might make it too good in some ways.
Orks don't necessarily need it, if a model can't move without moving through enemy models it can't fallback, Orks don't have a hard time surrounding a model in an unit to prevent fallback movement if you don't move into base to base during the charge and consolidate, and use your pile in to move closer to the enemy but also around them.
I'd like to see dakka dakka dakka get reworked so that it also allows rerolls of misses.
tneva82 wrote: I tried getting dice app in use. Of course have yet to find anybody in tournament etc to agree. No surprise seeing those can be faked. Could even do it myself if I wanted and then have bunch of 1's roll bit more 3's and 4's than odds say...And short of somebody doing long extensive statistical analyze of what results I get with my app nobody would be wiser. During one game nobody would even get hint of a suspicion. So I'm not surprised at all nobody outside friend circle trusts. Nevermind the inherit unrandomness of computer random which isn't true random but pseudo random.
But how nice of you just dismiss as mere complaining. Shows more about you and not in a good way.
I find your experience with the app odd, maybe it's in the way you try to pitch the app to your opponents? I use the assault dice app at tournaments all the time, its endorsed and branded by GW, I've had only maybe two opponents from 50+ tell me I can't use it. All you gotta say is: "bro I'm playing a horde army, I/we need to save this time, this app is written by GW and 40+ dice is just gonna average out anyway".
I'm giving you a very clean and respectable answer to not rolling buckets of dice and feeling demoralised by the effort/wasting your time. The slow thing about the app is re-rolling dice (you have to manually select dice to re-roll), but we have no meaningful re-rolls atm, so the app is an absolute pleasure to use.
I said what I said about complaining because I thought at first you were concerned about the time it takes to roll dice, but after re-reading it seemed you were complaining about how ineffective you feel while playing horde armies (and number of dice was just a symptom of this issue). I can't solve why you think horde army losses are unsustainable, and I don't care to speculate the solutions, but I can offer a speed upgrade to your experience.
Billagio wrote: The megaboss looks awesome. Does anyone know of a proper sized power klaw he could have in his left hand?
The klaw from the AoBR warboss suits him just fine.
Photo:
Spoiler:
I put it on his right hand here, but it can just as well go on the left.
I think that AoBR Boss Klaw is a little small for that model, if it were me.
I'd planed to scratch build my own Ghaz a few years ago but have yet to get to it.
I did however build a Power Klaw for a Warboss you might like. Easy enough to do and from start to finish maybe 6 hours of work.
I think the klaw parts came from the Stompa kit. I also used liquid green stuff to fill the cracks as well as cover the claw in thin layers for easier painting.
Unfortunatly this boss took a dive onto the floor a while back and I haven't fixed him yet. The Klaw is still attached and took no damage!
.Funny that you guys would mention putting a claw on the AoS warboss. I was considering getting him, but I would use him for the Big Choppa that he comes with to replicate the relic BC.
Is there any cheaper places to get him other than GW's webstore?
Shrapnelbait wrote: .Funny that you guys would mention putting a claw on the AoS warboss. I was considering getting him, but I would use him for the Big Choppa that he comes with to replicate the relic BC.
Is there any cheaper places to get him other than GW's webstore?
Well, actually I had the same thought, so because I hadn't painted him yet, I recently changed out the PK for a BC and gave him a nice bosspole. He's now sitting on my painting table.
Shrapnelbait wrote: .Funny that you guys would mention putting a claw on the AoS warboss. I was considering getting him, but I would use him for the Big Choppa that he comes with to replicate the relic BC.
Is there any cheaper places to get him other than GW's webstore?
Well, actually I had the same thought, so because I hadn't painted him yet, I recently changed out the PK for a BC and gave him a nice bosspole. He's now sitting on my painting table.
Nice. You should drill out some Space Marine heads and stick them on that bosspole to make a trophy rack.
Billagio wrote: Hmmm yeah Ghazzy might work or I’ll scratch build it. Maybe there will be a good one with a new release, who knows.
Wait you don’t like the megaboss model? I think he looks awesome. Ironjaws in general looks way better than our orks for the most part imo
There have been quite sticky rumors that we're going to get a new plastic ghaz. I'd wait with getting a new one till the codex drops.
Yeah thats my plan. Just trying to get an idea of what I want to do incase we dont get a new model or its not that great. I think I would use this guy as a more generic warboss though if we get a new ghazzy model anyway
With the new video preview of more gsc minis it seems like gw is hyping up "the next big release" of models, like there was nothing else worth to preview that would be released before them. I want to be optimistic, but at this point with the lack of rumors or seek peaks it seems we are only going to get a codex.
geargutz wrote: With the new video preview of more gsc minis it seems like gw is hyping up "the next big release" of models, like there was nothing else worth to preview that would be released before them. I want to be optimistic, but at this point with the lack of rumors or seek peaks it seems we are only going to get a codex.
There were some rumors just a day ago on KeriothTV.
Rumors Ork Codex:
Codex was seen by the source
Codex+ Dice
Ork bits upgrade sprues...
plastic Ghazkull
Warboss clam pack release
Wartrakk, Buggies and Defkoptas being worked on, but not part of the initial release.
geargutz wrote: With the new video preview of more gsc minis it seems like gw is hyping up "the next big release" of models, like there was nothing else worth to preview that would be released before them. I want to be optimistic, but at this point with the lack of rumors or seek peaks it seems we are only going to get a codex.
There were some rumors just a day ago on KeriothTV.
Rumors Ork Codex:
Codex was seen by the source
Codex+ Dice
Ork bits upgrade sprues...
plastic Ghazkull
Warboss clam pack release
Wartrakk, Buggies and Defkoptas being worked on, but not part of the initial release.
Looted Wagons may be back in the codex
Rumors have been....questionable. at this point I can't take anything not from gw without gallons of salt.
geargutz wrote: With the new video preview of more gsc minis it seems like gw is hyping up "the next big release" of models, like there was nothing else worth to preview that would be released before them. I want to be optimistic, but at this point with the lack of rumors or seek peaks it seems we are only going to get a codex.
There were some rumors just a day ago on KeriothTV.
Rumors Ork Codex:
Codex was seen by the source
Codex+ Dice
Ork bits upgrade sprues...
plastic Ghazkull
Warboss clam pack release
Wartrakk, Buggies and Defkoptas being worked on, but not part of the initial release.
Looted Wagons may be back in the codex
Rumors have been....questionable. at this point I can't take anything not from gw without gallons of salt.
Yeah without pics its hard not to think GSC are up next soon, even if its just for Kill Team.
geargutz wrote: With the new video preview of more gsc minis it seems like gw is hyping up "the next big release" of models, like there was nothing else worth to preview that would be released before them. I want to be optimistic, but at this point with the lack of rumors or seek peaks it seems we are only going to get a codex.
There were some rumors just a day ago on KeriothTV.
Rumors Ork Codex:
Codex was seen by the source
Codex+ Dice
Ork bits upgrade sprues...
plastic Ghazkull
Warboss clam pack release
Wartrakk, Buggies and Defkoptas being worked on, but not part of the initial release.
Looted Wagons may be back in the codex
Rumors have been....questionable. at this point I can't take anything not from gw without gallons of salt.
Yeah without pics its hard not to think GSC are up next soon, even if its just for Kill Team.
I think there's a possibility that GW might release Kill Team with new GSC models before either the Orks or Space Wolves books are out. Kind of like how Forgebane was several books before the Imperial Knights codex.
Of course the books in between didn't get much of anything in terms of models. I think there's a small possibility they might do a split-release for GSC because they have to wait the longest. Like, GSC get a few push-fit models in the Kill Team box, then Orks and SW get big releases, then GSC gets the full multi-part versions of the push fit kits and maybe one more new kit.
I don't know how likely that is, I just haven't given up on new models for orks.
An Actual Englishman wrote: If the Ork codex is released with no new models, I for one will be boycotting GW from all further purchases until they decide to support the range.
Well at least a civil email with my disappointment.
New models are new models, even if they're existing data sheets. To be honest that's probably the preference.
I can think of no other reason that we'd be so late in the codex release schedule. Craft world and Tyranids were released about 9 months ago. If the GSC models release before new Ork models they will have both had new models before Orks too, in effect.
I want new sculpts for existing models. Our range right now is completely diluted with crap units as far as datasheets so we don't need new units, just better rules to justify the existing models.
SemperMortis wrote: I want new sculpts for existing models. Our range right now is completely diluted with crap units as far as datasheets so we don't need new units, just better rules to justify the existing models.
I would agree with that, but I REALLY want Nobs to be able to get shields like Ogryn, or an upgrade kit to make looted vehicles.
So, speculation here.1 thing I hope for are at least generous price decreases.
My evidence for this is the homunculus covens of the dark eldar, my brother who plays them says that units like the talos and cronis got way cheaper (quoted from him..."Don't have my books on me, but they got much cheaper. Talos used to be like 230 now it's 160, and cronos used to be 200 now it's like 70").
That's easily around half price off for those iconic covens models.
This gives me hope for our dreddmob. If you didn't know the talos and cronos are the deldar monstrous creatures. They are characterized by being tough, slow moving and good in melee. If this sounds familiar to every close combat focused dredd then this is the deldar version. Unfortunately at the start of 8th in the index they were realy expensive, but as stated above got big price decreases in the codex.
If we cut half the price of our non fw walkers it would look like this (went for cheapest upgrades)
Killa kans at 32
Deffdredds at 65
Gorkanauts 175
Morkanauts with kff at 170
If at least this happens in our codex then I would be a happy camper. I would take a dreddmob to my next tournament in a heart beat.
How about you guys, would you forgo the green tide if our walkers were buffed like this?
I certainly hope that deff dreads and the like get improvements. For the gorka and morkanauts I'd rather they were just a little cheaper and got some improvements than just way cheaper. I hope with the help the DE monstrous walker-type things got, combined with how good knights are, we get decent rules for walkers. Comparing the gorkanaut to the knight gallant makes me sad. Same price but the gallant is much more durable and a better fighter. And then compare warglaives to deff dreads. that makes me want to weap.
I dont know if I would completely forgo my boyz in favor of walkers if the price changes you listed happen. I still like my boyz and want to bring at least 90 of them.
That being said I would certainly bring more walkers. Ive been eyeing the gork/morkanaut as a model and might get one regardless of a price change so any buffs to it would be welcome. I like the deff dread model as well so making them useful to take would give me an excuse to pick up a few start collecting boxes as well.
It'd be nice to see walkers as a viable add-on to lists in addition to being effective as a dred mob. I'm not too much of a fan of units that only work in an all-or-nothing list.
It's funny, I like running green tide in aos, bUT it's agrivating to have to do it in 40k. If orks have technology then I like the idea of them hosting hordes of walkers and vehicles like Buggies and trukks, and then you add boyz (I didnt play much before 7th, but for all it faults 7th had an emphasis on toys before boyz, and I liked that, now I love how 8th plays but I can't stand that green tide is our only viable option).
our army needs a cost effective answer to Knights, a gork or mork doesnt cut it at its current effectiveness or point value. And the Answer cannot be boyz this time. People should fear out Nauts, not just casually dismiss them. They should essentially be our Knights, less good at shooting but harder to kill and more stabby.
ah, I've got a couple of little rules questions...
passengers in an open-topped trukk...can they fire overwatch?...or can they only fire in the shooting phase?
the dakkadakkadakka stratagem...if I use that on a squad of tankbustas, with bomb squigs, if I roll 6's to hit with the bomb squigs, do they get a second attack? or are they still destroyed before that would trigger?
(I'm assuming the answer is "no" to both of them, but hey, I'd be happy to be wrong! )
1) The charging unit is charging the transport, not the unit inside, and since open topped only allows shooting in the shooting phase, they would not be allowed to fire overwatch even if another rule allowed them to do so.
2) This actually does work. Since you immediately make the attack after rolling your to hit, you technically finish resolving the second attack before rolling to wound for your first one. There is also no indications in the rules or FAQs that you must stop resolving an attack if your model gets killed in the middle its resolution. The squig simply explodes twice
So, speculation here.1 thing I hope for are at least generous price decreases.
My evidence for this is the homunculus covens of the dark eldar, my brother who plays them says that units like the talos and cronis got way cheaper (quoted from him..."Don't have my books on me, but they got much cheaper. Talos used to be like 230 now it's 160, and cronos used to be 200 now it's like 70").
That's easily around half price off for those iconic covens models.
This gives me hope for our dreddmob. If you didn't know the talos and cronos are the deldar monstrous creatures. They are characterized by being tough, slow moving and good in melee. If this sounds familiar to every close combat focused dredd then this is the deldar version. Unfortunately at the start of 8th in the index they were realy expensive, but as stated above got big price decreases in the codex.
If we cut half the price of our non fw walkers it would look like this (went for cheapest upgrades)
Killa kans at 32
Deffdredds at 65
Gorkanauts 175
Morkanauts with kff at 170
If at least this happens in our codex then I would be a happy camper. I would take a dreddmob to my next tournament in a heart beat.
How about you guys, would you forgo the green tide if our walkers were buffed like this?
Killa Kanz at 32 points would at least be more efficient then Ork Boyz vs small arms fire. A list with fifty+ Killa Kanz could fit inside a 2k list, I'd be willing to bet that would be a touch too many. But I am prenaming it Trash Kan tide and wouldn't mind growing Kanz all edition.
Outside of attrition strats from another toughness family, why does one bring a walker? Well, really just to have another hurking klaw standing in the ork boz's big footprint, which any character will do much more safely. Our walkers almost need some manufactured synergy in the form of an aura to be in a mixed list.
At 32 points a Killa Kan could almost be the shooty element in a Nobz/Kanz army that is backed by mek Gunz.
Rismonite wrote: Killa Kanz at 32 points would at least be more efficient then Ork Boyz vs small arms fire. A list with fifty+ Killa Kanz could fit inside a 2k list, I'd be willing to bet that would be a touch too many. But I am prenaming it Trash Kan tide and wouldn't mind growing Kanz all edition.
Rismonite wrote: Killa Kanz at 32 points would at least be more efficient then Ork Boyz vs small arms fire. A list with fifty+ Killa Kanz could fit inside a 2k list, I'd be willing to bet that would be a touch too many. But I am prenaming it Trash Kan tide and wouldn't mind growing Kanz all edition.
Rule of three kind of prevents that.
And I'm so glad it does. Having a special unit spammed in a list feels so cheesy. It's worse when that is the only way to get a victory.
Rismonite wrote: Killa Kanz at 32 points would at least be more efficient then Ork Boyz vs small arms fire. A list with fifty+ Killa Kanz could fit inside a 2k list, I'd be willing to bet that would be a touch too many. But I am prenaming it Trash Kan tide and wouldn't mind growing Kanz all edition.
Rule of three kind of prevents that.
You have to admit though, when you read 50+ Killa Kanz on the table your orky heart stopped for a second in pure joy. At 32pts I could actually buy 6 more Kanz and not think im wasting even more money on my favorite units (I Have 12 already). I could also justify buying another 2-4 Deff Dreadz (I have 2). I would almost assuredly buy a second Naut and make a pair of brothers to form the center pieces to my Walker Army.
Ive been saying all edition that ALL of our vehicles are drastically over priced, I had kind of hoped CA would fix some of these issues, here's hoping that they didn't fix them because they wanted the codex first, to address synergy issues associated with prices.
Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
I'd say somewhere inbetween, about 50pts.
They're not made of tinfoil, as they were before. They are more durable and can charge in to soak overwatch.
But 80 is just too much, I'd rather footslog for that cost. And it makes combining them with units like Tankbustas a much bigger points sink.
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
I was thinking something along the same lines. It's not just that trukks are overpriced for what they are, it's that even if they were more fairly priced they would still be pretty expensive for putting Boyz in. I'd rather trukks be really cheap, really fast transports that are easy to destroy and battlewagons be the tough moving bunkers for expensive units.
In regards to a cost effective method for Knights I'm banking on them drastically reducing the Stompas point cost and perhaps giving us more variety in terms of weapons/variants. GW has seen how good big models sell, don't think it's to far out of the realm of possibility for one or both.
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
I was thinking something along the same lines. It's not just that trukks are overpriced for what they are, it's that even if they were more fairly priced they would still be pretty expensive for putting Boyz in. I'd rather trukks be really cheap, really fast transports that are easy to destroy and battlewagons be the tough moving bunkers for expensive units.
Yeah, I'd be fine with them being the equivalent of Venoms for Orks, with Battlewagons being the more meaty transport. I mean, given the lacklustre shooting from the Big Shoota or Rokkit, there's not much else for a Trukk to do to be honest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gmaleron wrote: In regards to a cost effective method for Knights I'm banking on them drastically reducing the Stompas point cost and perhaps giving us more variety in terms of weapons/variants. GW has seen how good big models sell, don't think it's to far out of the realm of possibility for one or both.
I'm a little skeptical of Stompas getting good in any real capacity. The rules for them have never really been that good, with the kustom version from FW being the exception. I feel like they need an entire overhaul with higher in built-ballistic skill and some form of invuln/improved version of ramshackle to deal with how lacklustre they are.
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
I was thinking something along the same lines. It's not just that trukks are overpriced for what they are, it's that even if they were more fairly priced they would still be pretty expensive for putting Boyz in. I'd rather trukks be really cheap, really fast transports that are easy to destroy and battlewagons be the tough moving bunkers for expensive units.
Yeah, I'd be fine with them being the equivalent of Venoms for Orks, with Battlewagons being the more meaty transport. I mean, given the lacklustre shooting from the Big Shoota or Rokkit, there's not much else for a Trukk to do to be honest..
Venoms are allready tougher than trukks. And faster. And shootier. And cheaper. And correlate with the rest of the list.
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
I was thinking something along the same lines. It's not just that trukks are overpriced for what they are, it's that even if they were more fairly priced they would still be pretty expensive for putting Boyz in. I'd rather trukks be really cheap, really fast transports that are easy to destroy and battlewagons be the tough moving bunkers for expensive units.
I think Trukks are too much in the middle currently. They definitely cost too much for what they do, but just dropping the points might upset balance a little. Considering a 12 man unit of Boyz is pretty much useless, a Trukk is basically heavy armor for elite units, but not priced that way. Perhaps a bit of a point drop to say 50, but give them something like boarding ramps that allow disembark after move.
Soo... zero surprises here.
Well, maybe the absence of stormboyz is noteworthy. We probably have reached the point where the ork players just assume that they lose 90+ boyz during the firs two turns anyways, so there is little difference between storm boyz and boyz.
The field is full of knights, so let's see how those four do.
Soo... zero surprises here.
Well, maybe the absence of stormboyz is noteworthy. We probably have reached the point where the ork players just assume that they lose 90+ boyz during the firs two turns anyways, so there is little difference between storm boyz and boyz.
The field is full of knights, so let's see how those four do.
I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
Rismonite wrote: I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
What? 90 stormboyz dies just as fast and costs more. Anything else is even worse. Orks are in position where they need to accept they take tons of casualties and hope like hell they survive until game over(probably from time)
Rismonite wrote: I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
What? 90 stormboyz dies just as fast and costs more. Anything else is even worse. Orks are in position where they need to accept they take tons of casualties and hope like hell they survive until game over(probably from time)
It's boyz spam or take something other than orks.
Yea, a tankbusta or loota costs 2x or 3x but still dies at a rate of 90 per turn.
Grots are wounded on 2+ by almost anything and take a lot more casualties from morale due to no mob rule. They also won't be killing anything, so the opponent can just shoot whatever he needs to archive missions or maximize casualties, while a full mob of boyz is really dangerous to anything that's not T8 or has 10+ wounds.
Jidmah wrote:Some people simply want to run their army. There is nothing else in the ork codex run besides the stuff you see in their lists.
Some of them will have boyz left even if they lose 45 boyz per turn for five turns.
tneva82 wrote:
Rismonite wrote: I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
What? 90 stormboyz dies just as fast and costs more. Anything else is even worse. Orks are in position where they need to accept they take tons of casualties and hope like hell they survive until game over(probably from time)
Rismonite wrote: I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
What? 90 stormboyz dies just as fast and costs more. Anything else is even worse. Orks are in position where they need to accept they take tons of casualties and hope like hell they survive until game over(probably from time)
It's boyz spam or take something other than orks.
Yea, a tankbusta or loota costs 2x or 3x but still dies at a rate of 90 per turn.
Kind of surprised there isn't a grot storm list.
It does indeed look like common sense when you assume I meant Stormboyz or Tankbustas. But is an army that kills 90x6 = 450 points of Ork Boyz also killing 450/42 = 10+ Meganobz in two turns? Are TAC armies doing this?
"Meganobz suck" "Everything is bad"
Yes.. yes I know, thanks for the replies. Are TAC armies really handing out all this dakka?
EDIT Can you guyz design an army that kills 90 Ork Boyz in two turns and would also kill more then ten meganobz in two turns?
10 meganobz aren't all that tough. With all the d2 and even d3(flat, not random) 10 meganobz are not hard. I have lost 5 of those to not even half of enemy shooting. Yeah if you face bolters only they are good. What about all those -1 or -2 often multiwound attacks that roll lots of dices?
And yes same army also took out about 200 boyz without too much of a trouble.
Top of that their damage output isn't that hot. Not that many attacks, few guys, -1 to hit.
I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
You mean other factions?
lmao, that is basically what I read
Nothing, and I do mean NOTHING in our codex is as good as Ork boyz, not even close. A stormboy is a faster MORE EXPENSIVE boy, that doesn't benefit from having 20+ Models, a Kommando horde can't be taken anymore, and even when they could it was a gimmick, surprising your opponent with 120 Models in the 1st turn assault phase was just fun to watch the demoralization dawn across his face. But at 9ppm and being significantly worse then boyz point for point they aren't that great, and with the nerf to turn 1 assault AND rule of 3 they are dead as well.
Meganobz? T5 infantry with a 2+ save?....if only factions had S6-10 ranged weapons that had -3+ AP and multi damage....like plasma, melta, lascannon, etc etc etc. Kill 1 meganob with a lascannon and you just made your points back. Plus they are so slow and expensive they require a transport, so theres another 80-160pts wasted.
Regular nobz? worse then boyz
Warbikers? 27pts for a boy model with a short ranged S5 gun? no thanks. especially after they lost their cover save/jink
I mean I could keep going but basically everything is crap compared to boyz. The only thing that is worth taking is KMKs, and buffing characters...that is about it.
Are Meganobz still slower on-foot than Boyz? And, like, what's the point ratio? Could you trade a 30 boyz mob for 15 Meganobz? Could you, instead of running 180 boyz footslogging in 6 mobz, run 90, or even 60 Meganobz in 3 or 4 mobz? Could the same enemy firepower that takes out those 90 meganobz in a turn, as they could 90 boyz?
Also, Meganobz can be Da Jump'd, like Boyz, right?
Anvildude wrote: Are Meganobz still slower on-foot than Boyz? And, like, what's the point ratio? Could you trade a 30 boyz mob for 15 Meganobz? Could you, instead of running 180 boyz footslogging in 6 mobz, run 90, or even 60 Meganobz in 3 or 4 mobz? Could the same enemy firepower that takes out those 90 meganobz in a turn, as they could 90 boyz?
Also, Meganobz can be Da Jump'd, like Boyz, right?
Meganobz are 42pts each, or equivalent to 7 boyz. They have 3 T5 wounds and a 2+ save and are Movement 4. They have NO invuln and the only way to get one is to take a Big Mek with a KFF. So what you get is a 42pt model that every lascannon and heavy weapon in the game will be pointed at. Even failing that, most factions spam enough anti-infantry weapons to ice these guys pretty quickly, and that is before you even get into gimmicks. There are so many -2+ AP weapons in the game with multi damage that its impossible to run these dudes. And each one you lose is equivalent to losing 7 boyz, so you can field 4 Meganobz or 28 Boyz. By my math that means you get more then TWICE as many wounds for boyz, as well as significantly better leadership...Ohh did I mention that Meganobz are LD 7 (6 if you lose the boss nob).
Anvildude wrote: Are Meganobz still slower on-foot than Boyz? And, like, what's the point ratio? Could you trade a 30 boyz mob for 15 Meganobz? Could you, instead of running 180 boyz footslogging in 6 mobz, run 90, or even 60 Meganobz in 3 or 4 mobz? Could the same enemy firepower that takes out those 90 meganobz in a turn, as they could 90 boyz?
Also, Meganobz can be Da Jump'd, like Boyz, right?
42 pts so not nearly as good ratio as you hoped. Movement 4 so slower than boyz. Yes for da jump but that hits into issue of 50-50 chance to charge and if you fail that squad is dead, dead, dead.
They ARE tougher point to point against stuff like bolters and lasguns but...really? If those are your biggest threat you are doing great already. Game has simply abundant number of weapons that have armour save modifier and multiple damage. And often fire lots of shots as well.
Now W3 does help as D2 weapons need 2 wounds but there's also flat D3 weapons so...
They suffer from same issue as terminators. Expensive, 2+ save isn't as hot as it seems to be and multi wound per model hurt by abundance of multi wound weapons in the game. Terminators suck and they have 5++ natively. And frankly only kind of terminators I see in practice are ones that sport 3++.
Then you factor in meganobz rather dissapointing damage output. Even if you get into combat you will struggle to kill a vehicle! The -1 to hit and lack of attacks(their A stat isn't that much better compared to boyz and few in numbers) means they are often just causing minor damage, enemy fall backs and then blows them off. If they even got into combat alive.
Meganobz are super cool and I would love to field and have but darn they just gets deleted too easily by TAC enemy list. Every time I have fielded when enemy gets to shoot at them(ie baneblade was blown apart) they die without even taxing him that much. Albeit that's only 5 models and maybe bik mek and ghazkhul but still. Dead, dead, dead. Well okay Ghaz takes bit more firepower to take down.
And the knight army arrival doesn't even help. They have lots of weapons that are practically geared to killing mega nobz...
Rismonite is of course free to try it and prove himself right and all of us wrong That's of course one way. Take lots of those and show how tournaments are won! But I'm suspicious of it resulting in anything but massacre losses. Would love to be proven wrong though.
You pretty much summed up why meganobz are awful. The slowest movement stat in the game, no invuln save or ablative wounds so extremely squishy despite having three wounds, absolutely abysmal damage output with only 3 d3 attacks hitting on 4s, all for way too many points.
1 - Move 6 and advance 2d6 drop the lowest then can charge.
2 - Move 4 can't charge but invuln 4+
3 - Move 4 can't advance but +1 bs and ignore all negative modifiers
If you haven't had a turn yet, they start in 2 by default.
I'd love me some dakka meganobs with combi rokkits shooting their guns and rokkits with a bonus to hit rather than penalties upon penalties then charging some vehicle.
Vitali Advenil wrote: You pretty much summed up why meganobz are awful. The slowest movement stat in the game, no invuln save or ablative wounds so extremely squishy despite having three wounds, absolutely abysmal damage output with only 3 d3 attacks hitting on 4s, all for way too many points.
Yep. People equate survivability with effectiveness, but it's really survivability x damage output = effectiveness, not even counting things like movement speed and having to wait until turns 4 or 5 before they get to attack. It's why marines are so weak...even if they were 12 points they would be as survivable as 3 guardsmen but have WAY less output. Meganobs are like tacticals x 100.
The biggest thing wrong with meganobz? the same thing that's wrong with every ork: microscopic output on turns 1 and 2 because of BS5+. If they were 2+/3++ they would still suck because a near complete lack of shooting.
Meganobz are surprisingly tough in that even without a Painboy buff a Meganob will more often than not survive being shot with a lascannon. That said there is still so much firepower in the game they're going to get killed walking around on foot and the transports add a lot to the cost. Hopefully transports drop in cost.
Meganobz used to be able to take a Mega Boosta upgrade back when they counted as being in difficult terrain all the time. Something like that could come back as a wargear option or stratagem. It would be pretty funny, but ridiculous, if they counted as having a jump pack for a turn but had a chance of crashing and burning.
Anvildude wrote: Are Meganobz still slower on-foot than Boyz? And, like, what's the point ratio? Could you trade a 30 boyz mob for 15 Meganobz? Could you, instead of running 180 boyz footslogging in 6 mobz, run 90, or even 60 Meganobz in 3 or 4 mobz? Could the same enemy firepower that takes out those 90 meganobz in a turn, as they could 90 boyz?
Also, Meganobz can be Da Jump'd, like Boyz, right?
Meganobz are 42pts each, or equivalent to 7 boyz. They have 3 T5 wounds and a 2+ save and are Movement 4. They have NO invuln and the only way to get one is to take a Big Mek with a KFF. So what you get is a 42pt model that every lascannon and heavy weapon in the game will be pointed at. Even failing that, most factions spam enough anti-infantry weapons to ice these guys pretty quickly, and that is before you even get into gimmicks. There are so many -2+ AP weapons in the game with multi damage that its impossible to run these dudes. And each one you lose is equivalent to losing 7 boyz, so you can field 4 Meganobz or 28 Boyz. By my math that means you get more then TWICE as many wounds for boyz, as well as significantly better leadership...Ohh did I mention that Meganobz are LD 7 (6 if you lose the boss nob).
Meganobz are t4.
I've run them. I have 15. They're ok in super casual games when you can ask your opponent not to bring certain weapons to the game. Mefanobz end up as worse killa kanz with infantry keyword.
Overall i'd characterise them as bad. There's nothing going on for them other than their increased durability vs ap- d1 weapons. But they don't fit in with boyz, so in real games are not great. You'll always just want to bring more boyz cause the enemy has enough antitank weapons to wreck manz before they do anything.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Meganobz are surprisingly tough in that even without a Painboy buff a Meganob will more often than not survive being shot with a lascannon. That said there is still so much firepower in the game they're going to get killed walking around on foot and the transports add a lot to the cost. Hopefully transports drop in cost.
Meganobz used to be able to take a Mega Boosta upgrade back when they counted as being in difficult terrain all the time. Something like that could come back as a wargear option or stratagem. It would be pretty funny, but ridiculous, if they counted as having a jump pack for a turn but had a chance of crashing and burning.
And 7 boyz are even tougher against lascannon. Stats aren#t all about survivability. Points factor too. Ig and dark eldar basic infantry are one of the toughest targets out there
7 boyz in points!? WTF! Like, I had an idea of their stats- that's why I figured they'd only be worth 2 or 3 Boyz at most. Geeze, yeah, that's supremely expensive for what you get. Yeah, okay, no mobz of meganobz trudging up the table, then.
Anvildude wrote: 7 boyz in points!? WTF! Like, I had an idea of their stats- that's why I figured they'd only be worth 2 or 3 Boyz at most. Geeze, yeah, that's supremely expensive for what you get. Yeah, okay, no mobz of meganobz trudging up the table, then.
Yeah 7 boyz with power klaw and kustom shoota, 8 and spare with saws.
2 boyz(12 pts) would be too cheap but currently it's ridiculously expensive. Speed, lack of inv and multiple wounds counting for less than one might think makes them less ideal. 3 wounds counted more in 7th ed but in 8th ed there's just so much multi damage weapons, often at multi shot as well.
Well at least I disagree with above comment that lack of proper guns makes them worthless no matter for cost(and hey if they costed 1 pts per model would anybody really say they suck...so clearly there's point value where they become worthwhile). Death company isn't renowned as shooty units(often enough having like power fist+chainsword combo foregoing shooting alltogether!) yet they are seen use. It's not impossible to have assault dedicated unit but it's hard.
Anvildude wrote: 7 boyz in points!? WTF! Like, I had an idea of their stats- that's why I figured they'd only be worth 2 or 3 Boyz at most. Geeze, yeah, that's supremely expensive for what you get. Yeah, okay, no mobz of meganobz trudging up the table, then.
And that's pretty much the state of our entire codex.
Oh, I could take a killa kan, or I could take more boyz! Oh, I could take lootas, but more boyz would be more effective! Biker models are cool, oh, but if I get rid of them, I can take more boyz!
It's because boyz are the best at killing infantry, which incidentally is the only thing orks are actually decent at. Why take anything else when boyz do it better and cheaper?
Vitali Advenil wrote: It's because boyz are the best at killing infantry, which incidentally is the only thing orks are actually decent at. Why take anything else when boyz do it better and cheaper?
And because they are only ones you can have enough to really survive even 3-4 without being tabled.
Well grots are also decent addition. Not to kill but screen to die, objective grabbing and major roadblock. They are intended to either die(offensive power irrelevant) or sit far from threat(offensive power irrelevant).
aw man...this thread is so depressing ...I mean, I do like running green tide-style lists...but there's so many other cool options I'd love to run...but yeah, there's just not much point :/
ZoBo wrote: aw man...this thread is so depressing ...I mean, I do like running green tide-style lists...but there's so many other cool options I'd love to run...but yeah, there's just not much point :/
Yeah orks are in depressing place :( Which is why I have shelved them for a while. Greentide really struggles in 2k 2h time limit.
Rismonite wrote: It does indeed look like common sense when you assume I meant Stormboyz or Tankbustas. But is an army that kills 90x6 = 450 points of Ork Boyz also killing 450/42 = 10+ Meganobz in two turns? Are TAC armies doing this?
"Meganobz suck" "Everything is bad"
Yes.. yes I know, thanks for the replies. Are TAC armies really handing out all this dakka?
EDIT Can you guyz design an army that kills 90 Ork Boyz in two turns and would also kill more then ten meganobz in two turns?
A single knight with two avenger gatling cannons will kill 25.5 boyz per turn, or 5.4 MANz, and that's not even considering relics, warlord traits, stratagems or house bonuses for them.
There are tons of armies in that tournament which run two or three knights - an army with two knights will kill 20 MANz in two turns, a full knight army (3 knights+ armingers) has no issue killing 2000 points of MANz turn 1.
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ZoBo wrote: aw man...this thread is so depressing ...I mean, I do like running green tide-style lists...but there's so many other cool options I'd love to run...but yeah, there's just not much point :/
What's depressing about this?
Unlike in 7th where already we had our codex, the army was even worse, and GW was not doing re-balances twice a year, there is still hope.
We have not gotten our codex yet, and it has been announced to be one of the next two. Wait till GW is done high-fiving themselves over knights and AoS 2 and then we will be seeing either ork or space wolve previews. Even if it's fuzzy marines first, two weeks after we will get orks.
No need to lose your mind over waiting another month or so for the new codex.
ZoBo wrote: aw man...this thread is so depressing ...I mean, I do like running green tide-style lists...but there's so many other cool options I'd love to run...but yeah, there's just not much point :/
What's depressing about this?
Unlike in 7th where already we had our codex, the army was even worse, and GW was not doing re-balances twice a year, there is still hope.
We have not gotten our codex yet, and it has been announced to be one of the next two. Wait till GW is done high-fiving themselves over knights and AoS 2 and then we will be seeing either ork or space wolve previews. Even if it's fuzzy marines first, two weeks after we will get orks.
No need to lose your mind over waiting another month or so for the new codex.
I think you read a lot more into what I said, than what I actually said dude...I wasn't talking about the whole situation, let alone comparing it with last edition...I was basically just referring to reading the current discussion on this page, that being: "everything's crap, in a variety of ways...take more boyz...no, none of those other cool, fun things, just more boyz...only boyz, and lots of them" - it's just a bit depressing seeing other units being mentioned, only to be met, yet again, with "yeah, but for those points, you could just take x amount of boyz, which would probably be better"...I know that is basically the situation at the moment...but it's still depressing waking up and reading an entire page of it.
...even more so, considering I've got a pair of battlewagons on my desk ready to paint right now...and I know if I were to mention them, they too would be met with "why take a battlewagon? you could just take another 30 boyz instead"
ZoBo wrote: I think you read a lot more into what I said, than what I actually said dude...I wasn't talking about the whole situation, let alone comparing it with last edition...I was basically just referring to reading the current discussion on this page, that being: "everything's crap, in a variety of ways...take more boyz...no, none of those other cool, fun things, just more boyz...only boyz, and lots of them" - it's just a bit depressing seeing other units being mentioned, only to be met, yet again, with "yeah, but for those points, you could just take x amount of boyz, which would probably be better"...I know that is basically the situation at the moment...but it's still depressing waking up and reading an entire page of it.
...even more so, considering I've got a pair of battlewagons on my desk ready to paint right now...and I know if I were to mention them, they too would be met with "why take a battlewagon? you could just take another 30 boyz instead"
Well this IS tactic thread. Generally people are looking for ways to win there and not just how to throw cool models regardless of winning chances.
Alternative is death of the thread with no comments of course. Tactics for others is "pray opponent rolls tons of 1's".
Alternative is death of the thread with no comments of course. Tactics for others is "pray opponent rolls tons of 1's".
2s are the new 1s. 1s will be re-rolled
And yes, it is depressing. Not only orks but the game on the whole is just too shallow even compared to 7th imperfect ruleset.
Actually I quite like 8th, but I only came in at the very end of 7th. 7th was too much like old D&D where you had to constantly crosscheck rules and compare charts to see if you succeeded at the most basic things like hitting. My life is too busy to dedicate huge amounts of time to a single game. I am fortunate that I can and want to play mostly fluffy games against friends. If I only played competitively I would be very frustrated.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Actually I quite like 8th, but I only came in at the very end of 7th. 7th was too much like old D&D where you had to constantly crosscheck rules and compare charts to see if you succeeded at the most basic things like hitting. My life is too busy to dedicate huge amounts of time to a single game. I am fortunate that I can and want to play mostly fluffy games against friends. If I only played competitively I would be very frustrated.
I don't know, I think it's kind of the opposite in that 7th had very fluffy* (but complicated) rules and 8th could theoretically lend itself better to tournament play.
In practice a lot of 8th's shortcomings in the fluffy narrative department can be overcome with imagination and house rules, and sometimes 7th's complicated rules to try to make the game seem more cinematic and have the narrative tell itself could actually end up in weird-feeling "unrealistic"** situations. Also, while 8th is simpler on its face and theoretically could play faster there are some things slowing it down at the moment. Some of them I'm guessing will be fixed after the release schedule slows down and things stabilize.
*I'm using "fluffy" in the sense of "lore-friendly", where as if you meant it in the sense of "casual" then I would agree with you.
**Of course 40k is an abstracted game set in an unrealistic universe, but I think you get what I'm trying to say.
Ork brothers please help! I've been considering Orks for a while, and just feel over this 2. hand offer (for about 200 euros).
It seems to be 3. edition orks, as for example the trukks are all 'flat'. They are very well painted.
Is it a good deal? Would I be playing remotely competitive at 2k points? Is it worth the gamble with the upcoming Ork codex?
Would really appreciate inputs!
Competive? Hell no. Only ~60 boyz is about 33% or less what you would need and it has stuff like killa kans, dreads and trukks that are worthless piece of junk in even semi-competive army atm(and all those big shootas in boyz are also waste of models). Also it has stuff like looted basilisk you cannot use ATM. Maybe you could use as battlewagon with killkannon? Also it has inconvenient numbers like 7 grots...Hard to get 3 more grots to get 10 and you want generally either min squad of 10 or max 30. Something like 17 or 27 is just weird.
GOOD news however: It's not bad deal money wise. 3 killa kan, 50 boyz, 5 nobz, 10 stormboyz alone puts you at 220e. So assuming trukks and warbuggies you won't be replacing later AND new codex makes these units playable it could be very good start for an ork army for quite decent savings.
I would say if you are looking at competive army this is gamble. It could be good deal with new codex. Or it could not improve many of the units this has resulting in inefficient deal. You would be better off hunting basic boyz and KMK's and stormboyz on ebay for that 200e.
But before codex for this mix to not get curb-stomped opponent needs to tailor make list to be super weak for their faction. And some armies will be very HARD to tone down to that level(knights for example would just run over likely. You dont' have numbers to survive them and you can't even hurt them so can't kill them, can't really win objectives, can get tabled to boot and usually I would say orks are pretty hard for knights...).
So question is: Do you feel like gambling? Quoting Clint Eastwood: "‘You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?’" (no offence meant with the word punk! I just love that scene so couldn't resist inserting the quote here)
Are we allowed to use 32mm bases on 25 mm based models? I'm putting together a painboy and a Waaagh banna and it seems silly to have them on 25mm still...
Is it a good deal? Would I be playing remotely competitive at 2k points? Is it worth the gamble with the upcoming Ork codex?
Would really appreciate inputs!
Competive? Hell no. Only ~60 boyz is about 33% or less what you would need and it has stuff like killa kans, dreads and trukks that are worthless piece of junk in even semi-competive army atm(and all those big shootas in boyz are also waste of models). Also it has stuff like looted basilisk you cannot use ATM. Maybe you could use as battlewagon with killkannon? Also it has inconvenient numbers like 7 grots...Hard to get 3 more grots to get 10 and you want generally either min squad of 10 or max 30. Something like 17 or 27 is just weird.
GOOD news however: It's not bad deal money wise. 3 killa kan, 50 boyz, 5 nobz, 10 stormboyz alone puts you at 220e. So assuming trukks and warbuggies you won't be replacing later AND new codex makes these units playable it could be very good start for an ork army for quite decent savings.
I would say if you are looking at competive army this is gamble. It could be good deal with new codex. Or it could not improve many of the units this has resulting in inefficient deal. You would be better off hunting basic boyz and KMK's and stormboyz on ebay for that 200e.
But before codex for this mix to not get curb-stomped opponent needs to tailor make list to be super weak for their faction. And some armies will be very HARD to tone down to that level(knights for example would just run over likely. You dont' have numbers to survive them and you can't even hurt them so can't kill them, can't really win objectives, can get tabled to boot and usually I would say orks are pretty hard for knights...).
So question is: Do you feel like gambling? Quoting Clint Eastwood: "‘You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?’" (no offence meant with the word punk! I just love that scene so couldn't resist inserting the quote here)
Thanks for a detailed answer. The decision just got harder, but I heard about orks spamming boys, so I guess it's not much of a surprise I'm not sure how lucky I feel!
Nightlord1987 wrote: Are we allowed to use 32mm bases on 25 mm based models? I'm putting together a painboy and a Waaagh banna and it seems silly to have them on 25mm still...
Friends and people who don't know the official size won't care.
People who know and are playing in a tournie and want to win that way will complain.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Are we allowed to use 32mm bases on 25 mm based models? I'm putting together a painboy and a Waaagh banna and it seems silly to have them on 25mm still...
The Grot Handler comes with a 32mm base in the Vedros boxes, so I take that to mean that any support character is OK using one.
it just occurred to me...why didn't they just make the "Dakka Dakka Dakka" stratagem just the same as the Dakkajet's "Dakka Dakka Dakka" ability? (if it fires everything at the same target, add 1 to hit rolls)...that would've actually been quite a useful stratagem then...could make stuff like flash gitz, lootas, tankbustas, shootaboyz, etc almost viable...
ZoBo wrote: it just occurred to me...why didn't they just make the "Dakka Dakka Dakka" stratagem just the same as the Dakkajet's "Dakka Dakka Dakka" ability? (if it fires everything at the same target, add 1 to hit rolls)...that would've actually been quite a useful stratagem then...could make stuff like flash gitz, lootas, tankbustas, shootaboyz, etc almost viable...
I've been saying for a long time that our shooty units should come with this by default. It buffs our BS while not directly increasing our BS.
ZoBo wrote: it just occurred to me...why didn't they just make the "Dakka Dakka Dakka" stratagem just the same as the Dakkajet's "Dakka Dakka Dakka" ability? (if it fires everything at the same target, add 1 to hit rolls)...that would've actually been quite a useful stratagem then...could make stuff like flash gitz, lootas, tankbustas, shootaboyz, etc almost viable...
I've been saying for a long time that our shooty units should come with this by default. It buffs our BS while not directly increasing our BS.
Simple answer? Because it "buffs" orkz. We can't have orkz able to shoot things, it would be unfair to have space elves and Marines losing models before the orkz all die.
to hit, you technically finish resolving the second attack before rolling to wound for your first one. There is also no indications in the rules or 
That's of course one way. Take lots of those and show how tournaments are won! But I'm suspicious of it resulting in anything but massacre losses. Would love to be proven wrong though.
