seems to me that pretty much any of the outlaw gangs (plus pit slaves) would have been much cooler than these corpse grinders. Hopefully new pics makes me change my mind, cause currently, can't think anything else than meh

 kendoka wrote:
USD145 for the box would be reasonable.

There is no way in hell.

Infinity's Operation: Wildfire retails at $132. It includes 15 metal miniatures, a heavy cardboard terrain set (retails for $36 separately), dice, rulebooks, templates, tokens, and whatever else. I feel like that is a fair price for what I got.

Dark Uprising has a similar value proposition as a player - there's more miniatures but due to repeated sprues, the cost of the extra miniatures is negligible. The main difference is in terrain, between cardboard and sturdier plastic scenery, not to mention the mat going from paper to hard cardboard, and it is fairly substantial. Let's assume that this is comparable to a Ravaged Lands expansion for Warcry at $90 (and overpriced, at that), so if we subtract $36 from $132 and then add $90, we get $186. So, $190 seems like the upper limit to what I'd expect for this box. Going over $200 is a big nope from me anyway.

However, when you compare it to the value in GW's own Warcry starter, which was $170, the amount of miniatures and terrain seems very similar (or even exceeding - it also included a dozen chaos beast models) the value in Dark Uprising - and it was, what? Four months ago?

Their half-year mark for the fiscal year (they end their fiscal year on June 2) is coming up in December. Maybe they're trying to shore up some numbers for the half-year report.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 kendoka wrote:
USD145 for the box would be reasonable.

There is no way in hell.

Infinity's Operation: Wildfire retails at $132. It includes 15 metal miniatures, a heavy cardboard terrain set (retails for $36 separately), dice, rulebooks, templates, tokens, and whatever else. I feel like that is a fair price for what I got.

Anyone who says Wildfire was "a fair price" is full of it.

Hell, anyone who says Infinity is "reasonably priced" isn't worth listening to either. They make GW look cheap at this point.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Anyone who says Wildfire was "a fair price" is full of it.

What the hell? Most non-GW two player starter kits are around $100 (or $50 for the sampler-sized starters, like Malifaux had). Star Wars Legion, Kings of War, Marvel Crisis Core, MonPoc, RuneWars, Warmachine/Hordes, and previous Infinity Operation boxes. Wildfire is more expensive, due partly to the increased cardboard terrain quality (I thought the Icestorm cardboard terrain was pretty, but Wildfire's is way better). The Infinity Operation boxes are some of the few starter boxes that I consider to be actual starter boxes (two players new to the game can something like Operation Icestorm, learn to play through a half dozen scenarios, then immediately grow into a full game with the Beyond expansion).

Hell, anyone who says Infinity is "reasonably priced" isn't worth listening to either. They make GW look cheap at this point.

How do you figure? Now, I'm sure our opinions of "reasonable priced" are probably a bit subjective, but how in the living feth does Infinity make GW look even remotely cheap? You can get two complete armies in Infinity for under $150. You can't even get two incomplete armies in 40k for $230.

At this point, it's because of the artificial stagnation of Infinity by their constant refusal to include extra gubbins to actually add some value to kits while whining about SKU bloat(which is their own fault).

 Kanluwen wrote:
At this point, it's because of the artificial stagnation of Infinity by their constant refusal to include extra gubbins to actually add some value to kits while whining about SKU bloat(which is their own fault).

I feel like there is a pretty big gulf between "I would like this to be a thing" and "Infinity makes GW look cheap".

Histrionic overreaction is a treasured part of this hobby, but let's not strain ourselves...

I find the Infinity starter sets very good value for money. Between the quality of minis and all the things you get in a box I'd say it's a very reasonable price.

The amazing infinity starter Icestorm that missed out including the actual rules so you play using starter rules and then have to unlearn everything once you e actually bought the rulebook? Amazing value.

Assuming you ever get the models together.

The value of the starter set for Infinity and Infinity prices in general are not relevant to this N&R thread. If you wish to continue that discussion then please take it to a different thread.

SeanDrake wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Making the SC! boxes more expensive was probably the worst move to catch new players GW has done in the past 3 years.

The "Well make kits more expensive going forward to avoid making sweeping price increases" was moot when they did a price increase for nearly everything a couple of months ago.

GW's statement to investors states they are a margin focused business, meaning they have more interest in growing margin than growing revenue or growing customer base. If a product costs GW $100 to make, they would rather sell 1000 of them for $300 each than 10,000 of them for $200 each... atleast that what they say, and it sure seems to be the case.

GW have always been margin focused from the point Kirby took over, I interviewed with GW over a decade ago and spoke to there head of retail and sales and even then they were very proud of the fact that nothing in a GW’s store had a margin of less than 70% and most stuff was considerably higher. Obviously the Kirby years cannibalised sales to maintain/increase margin to the point that there sales were abysmal and was in the start of a death spiral, now however nu-GW has pulled out of the spiral and massively increased sales or as I like to think of it restocked the fridge.

GW have warehousing issues, manufacturing issues, infrastructure issues and have discovered that having lots of customers is way too much like work and costs more, now the fridge is restocked they can go back to increasing prices and decreasing costs and improving margins by selling less for more and cannibalising sales again it took them well over a 15yrs last time before they started to have issues so they likely think they have time especially now they have a fb page

They will likely keep turning the heat up on the frogs sorry I mean increasing prices until they reach what they believe is a maintainable ratio unless they just go full Kirby of course and go for maximum profitability at the cost of sustainability I mean nobody on the board is exactly a spring chicken.

The release and support for Necromunda and the other specialist games is more about recapitalizing the people that left than growing the market and getting new entrants to the hobby. This new starter set and its price point, makes it just a set, not a starter set. GW really needs better self control in accepting "starter" products need to be lower priced and that means low margins.

I think there is something illusory about the 'nu-GW' ... for once they did something that grew their customer base. However it was more like recapturing old customers and they know it. The margin focused nature of GW comes from their belief that the size of the wargaming market is only so big and that they already saturate it. -That they can only make so much more money expanding the customer base and can make so much more by milking the ones they've got. GW doesn't care about customer retention because there aren't much in the way of viable alternatives to their products, when you weigh community size. So when someone leaves the hobby, they inevitably comeback, but usually after selling off their collections, forcing them to start over from scratch and that is again far more lucrative than a good customer relationship or community building. At the end of the day they're a company that makes mass produced toys, who's margin focus has shifted the average age of their customer base up a decade. When we're all old men looking around wondering what will happened to our hobby, we'll know, and it'll be too late. They may have bought themselves some time, but its only about as much as it takes to operationally burn through the extra money years from now, as opposed to getting new customers that can buy them decades. Its a ticking timer set to hit its last minute when our generation thins out.

GW likes to point out that more than half their customers just collect and enjoy the hobby, but regardless of the amount people may spend doing that... GW seems blind to the fact that some of that is the perception of the cost to play. Its not only expensive but it is something of a moving goal post so if you can't or don't want to try and keep up you'll have a lot of sunk costs and you'll have rules and models so left behind you almost can't have a fair game.

Points of interest:

-Corpse Grinder Cult is 15 models and appears to be sprue of 5 models repeated three times.

-Palanite Enforcers contain 11 models, 5 of which are current models. This means that 6 models are new. Perhaps an upgrade sprue of 3 models, repeated twice?

jullevi wrote:
-Palanite Enforcers contain 11 models, 5 of which are current models. This means that 6 models are new. Perhaps an upgrade sprue of 3 models, repeated twice?

Personally, I'd find that good news on quite a few levels. 3 model boosters would be nice and managable for long term slow gang expansions. We're still waiting for the long rumoured Juve/Specialist boosters and they'd work with 3 model boxes...

jullevi wrote:
Points of interest:

-Corpse Grinder Cult is 15 models and appears to be sprue of 5 models repeated three times.

-Palanite Enforcers contain 11 models, 5 of which are current models. This means that 6 models are new. Perhaps an upgrade sprue of 3 models, repeated twice?

While that seems about right, it does seem weird to have a team of 3 repeated sprues of basic units (especially one that seems almost entirely melee) and a team of 1 basic sprue and 2 specialist sprues.

Subjucators carry massive shields as big as themselves, The important question here is with 3 bodies now, what they'd do to fill up the space?

Wild guess on my part regarding the Subjugators, but going off the image:

There will be 1 'mounted character sized' sprue per pose. There looks to be 3 distinct poses, at a glance.

Is there a limit as to how many of the breaching kits can be given to a group?

You mean subjugators with shields in an Enforcers 'gang'? Their only unique gang composition rules are (applies to new gangs only):

-at least 2 gangers of the same type as the Leader (Palanite/Subjugator)
-at least 1 Ganger for each Leader & Champion in the gang

All fighters are Palanite by default, but can be upgraded to Subjugator (+10 credits). The House Weapon List is divided in 2 parts, one for each type (Palanites/Subjugators). Only Subjugators have access to shields.

People earlier were saying they're disappointed there's no lawladies in the box, but looking at that image, is it my imagination or do the two on the right at the front row have a slighter build than the others?

When I compare them to the two on the front left the feet, ankles, kneepads, upper arms look just a wee smidge thinner, and maybe a hint on the 2nd from right that the waist is a little narrower? Could just be imagination/perspective, but if not and if they follow the trend from AT of releasing an "updated" gang box with one regular 5 figure sprue and two of these new probably 3 figure ones, that'll be two female models in the box.

 Yodhrin wrote:
People earlier were saying they're disappointed there's no lawladies in the box, but looking at that image, is it my imagination or do the two on the right at the front row have a slighter build than the others?

Front row, second from the right does appear to have a much smaller helmet than the guy standing immediate behind (looking the same direction) - but all the others look beefy to me, which makes me think it is a trick of perspective.

Those Enforcers are such excellent models. I really wish they'd give them some 40K and/or Killteam rules. Out of all the Necromunda models they would make most sense in other games.

And yes, I know that they're Necromundan Enforcers specifically, but other 'Space Police' forces can use similar gear just like most Guard armies use Cadian gear.

Baxx wrote:
You mean subjugators with shields in an Enforcers 'gang'? Their only unique gang composition rules are (applies to new gangs only):

-at least 2 gangers of the same type as the Leader (Palanite/Subjugator)
-at least 1 Ganger for each Leader & Champion in the gang

All fighters are Palanite by default, but can be upgraded to Subjugator (+10 credits). The House Weapon List is divided in 2 parts, one for each type (Palanites/Subjugators). Only Subjugators have access to shields.

Yeah, I don't know anything about Necromunda outside of "The Enforcers aren't Arbites, but damn I want those models".

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah, I don't know anything about Necromunda outside of "The Enforcers aren't Arbites, but damn I want those models".

Best way to find out is start playing! Should be super fun.

Baxx wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah, I don't know anything about Necromunda outside of "The Enforcers aren't Arbites, but damn I want those models".

Best way to find out is start playing! Should be super fun.

When money and time work out, the idea is Enforcers pewpew

Can't wait to finally see the box though. Got at least one person who might be interested in the Slaughtercult.

The shield enforcers are quite nice and characterful (although I'm looking at them from an RPG character mini perspective admittedly).

BTW, who was that company that made the "Not Enforcers"?
Adding them in would be a good place to get a couple extra sniper rifles to the table.

Probably Artel W.

 warboss wrote:
Probably Artel W.

Artel W and Heresy Labs both have sets of Femforcers. They are both more human scale, so more slender and smaller than GW Heroic scale.

I'm going to be one of those people who buy 2 of this set from my FLGS. I want the new enforcer models (CCW scouts for marines!) and new terrain for both 40K (compatible with the sector imperialis/mechanicus should be fun) and it looks like it would work well for Fallout Wasteland Warfare too. I use some other GW terrain for that game as well.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 kendoka wrote:
USD145 for the box would be reasonable.

There is no way in hell.

Infinity's Operation: Wildfire retails at $132. It includes 15 metal miniatures, a heavy cardboard terrain set (retails for $36 separately), dice, rulebooks, templates, tokens, and whatever else. I feel like that is a fair price for what I got.

Dark Uprising has a similar value proposition as a player - there's more miniatures but due to repeated sprues, the cost of the extra miniatures is negligible. The main difference is in terrain, between cardboard and sturdier plastic scenery, not to mention the mat going from paper to hard cardboard, and it is fairly substantial. Let's assume that this is comparable to a Ravaged Lands expansion for Warcry at $90 (and overpriced, at that), so if we subtract $36 from $132 and then add $90, we get $186. So, $190 seems like the upper limit to what I'd expect for this box. Going over $200 is a big nope from me anyway.

However, when you compare it to the value in GW's own Warcry starter, which was $170, the amount of miniatures and terrain seems very similar (or even exceeding - it also included a dozen chaos beast models) the value in Dark Uprising - and it was, what? Four months ago?

I think it will be close to Warcry, maybe the 170 or possibly they up the price, the only set that was above that was the Epic rerelease, forget its name, it was like 290 or something like that, needless to say i didn't get that and if necromunda follows suit, I will have to be a hard pass for me too. Here is to hoping it is 170.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
People earlier were saying they're disappointed there's no lawladies in the box, but looking at that image, is it my imagination or do the two on the right at the front row have a slighter build than the others?

Front row, second from the right does appear to have a much smaller helmet than the guy standing immediate behind (looking the same direction) - but all the others look beefy to me, which makes me think it is a trick of perspective.

It is indeed difficult to say. Then again, wearing all this equipment I'm not even sure male and female figures would have to look much different. Substituting the head for a female one might not look too bad. Just to decide on the style...

I will not be able to watch it, but if someone watch it and can post photos of the scenography sprues (if they show it) it would be very interesting.

if you can complain about the price it would also be very good

angel of death 007 wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 kendoka wrote:
USD145 for the box would be reasonable.

There is no way in hell.

Infinity's Operation: Wildfire retails at $132. It includes 15 metal miniatures, a heavy cardboard terrain set (retails for $36 separately), dice, rulebooks, templates, tokens, and whatever else. I feel like that is a fair price for what I got.

Dark Uprising has a similar value proposition as a player - there's more miniatures but due to repeated sprues, the cost of the extra miniatures is negligible. The main difference is in terrain, between cardboard and sturdier plastic scenery, not to mention the mat going from paper to hard cardboard, and it is fairly substantial. Let's assume that this is comparable to a Ravaged Lands expansion for Warcry at $90 (and overpriced, at that), so if we subtract $36 from $132 and then add $90, we get $186. So, $190 seems like the upper limit to what I'd expect for this box. Going over $200 is a big nope from me anyway.

However, when you compare it to the value in GW's own Warcry starter, which was $170, the amount of miniatures and terrain seems very similar (or even exceeding - it also included a dozen chaos beast models) the value in Dark Uprising - and it was, what? Four months ago?

I think it will be close to Warcry, maybe the 170 or possibly they up the price, the only set that was above that was the Epic rerelease, forget its name, it was like 290 or something like that, needless to say i didn't get that and if necromunda follows suit, I will have to be a hard pass for me too. Here is to hoping it is 170.

If only epic was rereleased

Motograter wrote:

If only epic was rereleased

It was. Apoc 2019. Just divide the distances by 4.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Motograter wrote:

If only epic was rereleased

It was. Apoc 2019. Just divide the distances by 4.

Nah, just swap inches to CM and you're set more or less.

From twitter, probably a new WHW diorama:

It is shown in the livestream, White Dwarf board (amongst other usage) by Mark Bedford

They are currently showing that table on https://www.twitch.tv/warhammer

Thorgor on Yaktribe

Not yet, I hope it will be in the second part.

You've not missed anything interesting imo. It was mostly stuff we already knew. I took a few notes from the beginning but then I had to mute the stream:
​
General:​
Very big box (seems AT-sized)​
Different way to play the game set in a different hive​
New doors slot in and out​
Uprising campaign (similar to Dominion but with scavenging, need for meat) (seems very similar to Law & Misrule)​
"Just the beginning". They have stuff in the pipe for the next 2~3 years.​
​
CGC:​
Corpsegrinder cult is linked to the Corpsegrinder guild. It's what happens when workers decide to sample the unprocessed product.​
Use repurposed tools​
Little guys are the initiates. Start with the infiltrate skill.​
Masks are special armour. Each type of fighter has a different mask with different effect.​
T3 S3. Faster than Goliath. Glass cannon​
​
Enforcers:​
1 palanite frame + 2 subjugator frames​

Interesting stream (imo), Mark is giving painting tips and talks about the new terrain (in part two, currently broadcasted)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The meatgrinder shown above is made from the Khorne (Daemon) terrain piece

I thought the main part was from the Noctolith(?) ring that they CSM got. Looks like that's the base of it, at least. Clever and subtle use of a Chaos scenery piece.

Yes, you are probably right not the Khorne one


More photos, by Thorgor

https://yaktribe.games/community/threads/new-models-incoming.8526/post-211498

If that table is two boxed sets worth of goods, count me out. I think I'll try to pick up an ender3 3d printer on black Friday instead.

Cool looking terrain. I always wanted a Zone Mortalis terrain set.

Also, shoutout to the Mark Bedford's Hellboy shirt. Always unexpected to see Warhammer Community videos mention or show things like Star Wars, HB, or Optimus Prime. I'd figure GW would be afraid to bring up an other IPs.

I'm curious how many of those floors come in a single $60 box. Did they mention that?

via FB from someone else who watched

Set comes with a unique softcover rulebook which contains the Necromunda core rules and the rules for Enforcers and Corpse Grinders. It does not come with the hardcover, and supposedly the softcover includes the FAQ and errata which makes me think we'll see some new faq and errata soon.
It also comes with its own campaign which is a variation on the Dominion campaign (what we saw those cards for) which includes mechanics for scavenging and trying to find food. That's right, you have to not starve.
The box is massive, the terrain is modular and includes sockets for magnetizing. Its cross-compatible with sector mech terrain and the doors are removable even if you place something on-top of the doorway. It comes with a mat similar to ones that come in other box sets.
Everything will be available individually later terrain and minis wise, PLUS they will be releasing hard plastic mortalis tiles!

Oh man that table looks great

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
If that table is two boxed sets worth of goods, count me out. I think I'll try to pick up an ender3 3d printer on black Friday instead.

Ya, $20 of spool goes a long way for floors. Another for bulkheads, another for Tatooine buildings, ...

And since I have an Ender-3 and don't really like the Khorne gang, I'm going to save myself a lot of money not buying this boxset.

 Sqorgar wrote:
I'm curious how many of those floors come in a single $60 box. Did they mention that?

My guess would be 4 tiles (maaaaaaybe 6) per $60 (US) box.

 Fango wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
I'm curious how many of those floors come in a single $60 box. Did they mention that?

My guess would be 4 tiles (maaaaaaybe 6) per $60 (US) box.

You wish. 60 bucks for 1 tile.

Dread Master wrote:

 Fango wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
I'm curious how many of those floors come in a single $60 box. Did they mention that?

My guess would be 4 tiles (maaaaaaybe 6) per $60 (US) box.

You wish. 60 bucks for 1 tile.

This is for 12" plastic tiles, correct? Sarcasm/pessimism doesn't translate well in type....do you have a source? or are you making a snarky comment on their premium pricing model?

I would think that a box would get you enough to make a minimum play area (lets say 4 tiles for 2'x2'?) If $60 doesn't get you 4, I would assume theyd make a box of 4 anyway and charge whatever they think 4 tiles is worth...but this is all speculation anyway...I'm eager to see what the actual packaging and price ends up being....I may end up printing my own tiles and deal with the mild print lines if its too ridiculous.

From Facenbuch:

Ok, so first outlook on dark uprising before I forget.

They were working on it from 2 years.

The box is big about 3 kg and 6" thick as was said.

Dark Uprising is a Necromunda Campaign focused on Hive Arcos.

The box contains Uprising Rulebook - a paperback which has same rules as in hardback but in different form, also templates, dices, Campaign Territory Cards, Tokens.

The plastic zone mortalis in box is made of 16 plastic sprues. Terrain is modular, can be easy used for 2D, 3D 2D/3D tables. Suitable for magnetization.There is also playmat instead of floor tiles.

Enforcers - 1 sprue with 5 regular guys and 1 or 2 with 6 Subjugators. 5 guys have shields and pistol grenade launchers. 1 guy have SLHG Grenade assault pattern ram.

CGC - 15 guys. They are basically workers from corpse starch facilities under Corpse Guild, who dont want to eat starch, cause prefer raw fresh meat. Being a worker it means they have S3, T3.

Different CGC have different rules. Glass-cannon gang.

The initiates are the only one who can carry ranged weapons and they have infiltration.

There are Butchers, Skinners and Cutters - equivalent of Leaders and Champions with different abilities.

They use repurposed weapons used in their routine work for corpse processing in the facility. They wear the mask which gives +1 armour save and protect from eye damage after getting shot in the face, also requiring passing will power test to attack them.

Skinners have Berserker charge - additional dice to attack.

Cutter is a Champion - S4, T3.

They are clearly not Chaos related. They do not recognize their Lord of Skin and Senew as Khorne, but in fact still he is the one.

Plastic things can be bought later separately.

Uprising Campaign is included - similar to Dominion, capturing territories but things go wrong so you have to start scavening for resources and to find food. All gangs can take a part in the Campaign.

Miniatures from Enforcers and CGC can be used for expanding initial gang size.

There is a plan to support the necromunda for 3-4 years until wallets will cry as was said.

They didnt say they wont do Outlanders.

This expansion related to Hive Arcos was started 2 years ago and 1 year was production. The mentioned Hive Mortalis with plague and zombies, Hive Secundus with GSC, Ash Wastes. Probably another expansion is in progress already.

Also from Facebook:

Q: Is the campaign book in the box the same as the one on its own?

A: the core rules are the same as the current hardcover Rulebook, and it sounds like it includes the Uprising campaign which is a completely new campaign, *instead of* the Dominion campaign. He didn't say much about The Book of Ruin because Andy will be on Twitch again next week to talk about that, but it's not the same as the book in the box; don't know if it will contain the full Uprising campaign, but it sounds like it will at least build on the Uprising campaign with even more new scenarios, and will have lists for Corpse Grinders, Chaos Helot Cults, GSC, and rules for making House gangs that are corrupted by Chaos and/or GSC!

Q: Do you need the corpse grinders to be part of the campaign?

A: There are Enforcers, Forces of ruin - CGC, GSC, Helots and neutral - other regular gangs which can also join the dark side. Dunno if Enforcers are must, I guess no.

Let's hope these pics work...

In Necromunda, there are never "same rules", stuff always changes. There is never a pure copy-paste, some butter fingers always do random mutations to the text. New round of madness, N19 here we go!

I'm liking this more and more.

16 sprues worth of terrain is hard to believe. I'd believe 8 of the big 'vehicle sized' sprues, though. So maybe it's like 16 infantry-sized sprues.

Very impressive. This is what's going to get me into Necromunda. I'll probably save a sprue's worth of the chaos gang for the inevitable forgeworld weapon upgrades.

Well it would explain the high price in the leak that people have been complaining about

Apparently the pictures we've seen represent the terrain in the box x2.

That's not a good sign...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Apparently the pictures we've seen represent the terrain in the box x2.

That's not a good sign...

That’s the table at the Yaktribe link, not the marketing shot on WHC.

They are clearly not Chaos related. They do not recognize their Lord of Skin and Senew as Khorne, but in fact still he is the one.

Just... What?

They're clearly not chaos related. (But they look really chaos related).

They don't recognize their God as Khorne (but it looks like they're a Khornate cult), except he is, in fact, totally Khorne.

So they're a not chaos cult that doesn't worship Khorne by being a chaos cult that totally worships Khorne. I sincerely hope a terrible summary and atrocious translation ran into several typos, because that is complete nonsense.

The cultists themselves are probably as confused as you.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That’s the table at the Yaktribe link, not the marketing shot on WHC.

It's a display board, I know, as it has elements that aren't part of the kit (like the meatgrinder made from the Chaos Stargate thing). And if that's 2x terrain, then that means the amount in the box is pretty paltry.

Voss wrote:

They are clearly not Chaos related. They do not recognize their Lord of Skin and Senew as Khorne, but in fact still he is the one.

Just... What?

They're clearly not chaos related. (But they look really chaos related).

They don't recognize their God as Khorne (but it looks like they're a Khornate cult), except he is, in fact, totally Khorne.

So they're a not chaos cult that doesn't worship Khorne by being a chaos cult that totally worships Khorne. I sincerely hope a terrible summary and atrocious translation ran into several typos, because that is complete nonsense.

I fear you're missing the intent here; the cult is absolutely worshipping Khorne, or at least a local version of him, they're just unaware of the terminology that we, the player, would normally use. They've never heard of "Khorne the Blood God of Chaos" but the Lord of Skin and Sinew or whatever is the local interpretation of him or an aspect. The Chaos Gods are known and worshipped under a myriad of different names and forms across the galaxy, this is Necromunda's. It's a more specific, narrow aspect and form of worship but it feeds into the gestalt whole of the entity we'd usually think of as Khorne.

Voss wrote:

They are clearly not Chaos related. They do not recognize their Lord of Skin and Senew as Khorne, but in fact still he is the one.

Just... What?

They're clearly not chaos related. (But they look really chaos related).

They don't recognize their God as Khorne (but it looks like they're a Khornate cult), except he is, in fact, totally Khorne.

So they're a not chaos cult that doesn't worship Khorne by being a chaos cult that totally worships Khorne. I sincerely hope a terrible summary and atrocious translation ran into several typos, because that is complete nonsense.

It's old WFRP Chaos, or the Warcry version now. The Corvus Cabal have their own idea of what Tzeentch is, which is very different from what the Disciples of Tzeentch or the 1000 Sons would recognise.

They don't recognise the Khorne you would, Lord of Brass with deamons and a skull collecting fetish. The name 'Khorne' is meaningless to them and the Lord of Bone and Sinew might just be the patriarch of a whole pantheon of flesh deities, who all may be aspects of Khorne.
The Lord of Blood and Sinew might even be a specific Prince or Bloodthirster, rather than the Blood God himself - and probably started off as a local God, maybe even a symbol of the Emperor himself ("the Imperium is built on flesh and blood, human flesh and human blood" as the old quote goes).

So they are a corrupted cult, possibly even an Emperor worshipping one - that has debased itself and now serves Khorne. But in a parochial way, because they have never met deamons and might not even be aware of the other Great Powers. No "Death to the False Emperor" because they don't realise they've fallen, it's those in power that have lost touch with the real truth and feign worship of some abstract icon rather than the real Emperor of Man.

Well, the box is seemingly more and more appealing, though I really do hope that is a single box of terrain in the starter and not two, because otherwise the terrain is absurdly expensive. It still seems hard to believe the set is 290, as if you are going to price a box that high, why include a paper mat instead of tiles? You might as well go for 350 and include all "premium products."

I would likely pick this up for 200 or less, but over it will be a very tough sell.

Also nice to hear the full rules are included in the base set with a campaign, GW really botched not having a campaign system in the first starter.

JimmyWolf87 wrote:

Voss wrote:

They are clearly not Chaos related. They do not recognize their Lord of Skin and Senew as Khorne, but in fact still he is the one.

Just... What?

They're clearly not chaos related. (But they look really chaos related).

They don't recognize their God as Khorne (but it looks like they're a Khornate cult), except he is, in fact, totally Khorne.

So they're a not chaos cult that doesn't worship Khorne by being a chaos cult that totally worships Khorne. I sincerely hope a terrible summary and atrocious translation ran into several typos, because that is complete nonsense.

I fear you're missing the intent here; the cult is absolutely worshipping Khorne, or at least a local version of him, they're just unaware of the terminology that we, the player, would normally use. They've never heard of "Khorne the Blood God of Chaos" but the Lord of Skin and Sinew or whatever is the local interpretation of him or an aspect. The Chaos Gods are known and worshipped under a myriad of different names and forms across the galaxy, this is Necromunda's. It's a more specific, narrow aspect and form of worship but it feeds into the gestalt whole of the entity we'd usually think of as Khorne.

If that's the intent, they can just say that. A cult that worships Khorne without knowing it is still a Khornate Chaos Cult. Kicking off with 'they are clearly not chaos related' is nonsense.

That is weird lore considering how overtly chaos they look. In particular the leaders mask, out of them all though I do like the one with the hood over the helmet the most.

Voss wrote:

JimmyWolf87 wrote:

Voss wrote:

They are clearly not Chaos related. They do not recognize their Lord of Skin and Senew as Khorne, but in fact still he is the one.

Just... What?

They're clearly not chaos related. (But they look really chaos related).

They don't recognize their God as Khorne (but it looks like they're a Khornate cult), except he is, in fact, totally Khorne.

So they're a not chaos cult that doesn't worship Khorne by being a chaos cult that totally worships Khorne. I sincerely hope a terrible summary and atrocious translation ran into several typos, because that is complete nonsense.

I fear you're missing the intent here; the cult is absolutely worshipping Khorne, or at least a local version of him, they're just unaware of the terminology that we, the player, would normally use. They've never heard of "Khorne the Blood God of Chaos" but the Lord of Skin and Sinew or whatever is the local interpretation of him or an aspect. The Chaos Gods are known and worshipped under a myriad of different names and forms across the galaxy, this is Necromunda's. It's a more specific, narrow aspect and form of worship but it feeds into the gestalt whole of the entity we'd usually think of as Khorne.

If that's the intent, they can just say that. A cult that worships Khorne without knowing it is still a Khornate Chaos Cult. Kicking off with 'they are clearly not chaos related' is nonsense.

Yeah, you're exactly right. There's not room in lore for subtlety and nuance. Everything needs to be spelled out and as simplistic as possible.

 Starfarer wrote:

Voss wrote:

JimmyWolf87 wrote:

Voss wrote:

They are clearly not Chaos related. They do not recognize their Lord of Skin and Senew as Khorne, but in fact still he is the one.

Just... What?

They're clearly not chaos related. (But they look really chaos related).

They don't recognize their God as Khorne (but it looks like they're a Khornate cult), except he is, in fact, totally Khorne.

So they're a not chaos cult that doesn't worship Khorne by being a chaos cult that totally worships Khorne. I sincerely hope a terrible summary and atrocious translation ran into several typos, because that is complete nonsense.

I fear you're missing the intent here; the cult is absolutely worshipping Khorne, or at least a local version of him, they're just unaware of the terminology that we, the player, would normally use. They've never heard of "Khorne the Blood God of Chaos" but the Lord of Skin and Sinew or whatever is the local interpretation of him or an aspect. The Chaos Gods are known and worshipped under a myriad of different names and forms across the galaxy, this is Necromunda's. It's a more specific, narrow aspect and form of worship but it feeds into the gestalt whole of the entity we'd usually think of as Khorne.

If that's the intent, they can just say that. A cult that worships Khorne without knowing it is still a Khornate Chaos Cult. Kicking off with 'they are clearly not chaos related' is nonsense.

Yeah, you're exactly right. There's not room in lore for subtlety and nuance. Everything needs to be spelled out and as simplistic as possible.

Except it _is_ spelled out. They literally say its actually Khorne. And they look like bog standard Khorne cultists with axes and everything (once again missing that there's a huge range of Khornate worship other than 'smash with axe'). But for no apparent reason, they preface talking about them by saying 'clearly not chaos related.' That isn't 'subtlety or nuance,' that's just outright false.

If they wanted subtle, they could have left it mysterious and opened ended, not claim it isn't, then own up that it totally is two sentences later.
They did it successfully with the Warcry cults, where it isn't 100% obvious that the various bands worship <specific chaos god>, but instead have a range of beliefs that are actually pseudo-cultural rather than slotting in as predetermined ties to the Big Four.

 Fango wrote:

Dread Master wrote:

 Fango wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
I'm curious how many of those floors come in a single $60 box. Did they mention that?

My guess would be 4 tiles (maaaaaaybe 6) per $60 (US) box.

You wish. 60 bucks for 1 tile.

This is for 12" plastic tiles, correct? Sarcasm/pessimism doesn't translate well in type....do you have a source? or are you making a snarky comment on their premium pricing model?

I would think that a box would get you enough to make a minimum play area (lets say 4 tiles for 2'x2'?) If $60 doesn't get you 4, I would assume theyd make a box of 4 anyway and charge whatever they think 4 tiles is worth...but this is all speculation anyway...I'm eager to see what the actual packaging and price ends up being....I may end up printing my own tiles and deal with the mild print lines if its too ridiculous.

100% snark. Hope I’m wrong tho.

The people on the stream were being sarcastic.
"They're clearly not chaos related" was a joke.

I was thinking they were Tau loyalists.

Shows how much I know...

Thanks for the sharing of the info, looking forward to the uparmoured enforcers and ZM tiles when they get their own release somewhere down the road.

Mark Bedford has confirmed that the tiles are the same size as the original FW ones.

Also, he posted more pics (apologies if these don't work):

So that's the central part of the diorama, that they have said is in addition to the "two boxes' worth of scenery" they said it had, right?

That makes it look like the amount of scenery in the box is... paltry, particularly for the price.

Also, all the floor tiles are exactly the same one, but painted differently? Because they look like they are.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah, I don't know anything about Necromunda outside of "The Enforcers aren't Arbites, but damn I want those models".

These Enforcers are certainly Arbites in my precinct!

Just great looking models to build and to paint. Count as Krieg Engineers for me.

Yeah 3D printer seems like a better value for money than 2 of these boxes to sorta kinda maybe cover a 4x4, and that's without any floor tiles!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Mark Bedford has confirmed that the tiles are the same size as the original FW ones.

Pic didn't work for me so uploading them.

That's Corpse-starch factory?

Absolutely love the look of the scenery (and also keen on the enforcers) so almost certainly going to pick up a set, I'd almost be tempted by two but imagine there may be quite a lot of people doing that (or buying a box just for the scenery) so probably hard to shift the duplicates of everything else (and I'm a bit lazy when it comes to selling stuff) so will probably have to wait for the standalone release of the scenery before expanding, hopefully not too long. I picked up two AT Grand Master sets but with them pretty everything that was duplicated was useful (even the rulebook as I was able to give that to a friend to try and get them interested).

Will also probably add some floors, do we know the UK pricing yet? £45-£50? Also wondering about how many tiles you get in a set, I'm guessing 3 or 4, but neither of those numbers is quite ideal so hard to guess which.

3 means you can easily do 2x3, 3x3 and 4x3 but a single set doesn't really work on its own (except for oddly shaped boards) and expanding up to larger standard table sizes also doesn't work well.

4 works fine on it's own, but then not great when it comes to doing 2x3 or 3x3 tables, which I believe are standard size Kill Team and Necromunda tables, but then works well for all tables sizes above that.

Mark's terrain stuff is always a joy to look at, thanks for sharing!

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah, I don't know anything about Necromunda outside of "The Enforcers aren't Arbites, but damn I want those models".

These Enforcers are certainly Arbites in my precinct!

Just great looking models to build and to paint. Count as Krieg Engineers for me.

Yes!!! Make them what YOU want them to be.

I admit that Dark Uprising has a hell of a lot more value in the box than Blood of the Phoenix, but then, I don't think Phoenix was even remotely worth $230.

The box really does feel very comparable to Warcry, despite being $120 more - it's got a BIT more stuff in the box, but I'm not sure if the softback included rulebook is a substitute for the $50 core rulebook (it at least lacks the Dominion campaign), and you'll most likely need the $50 gang book for a full equipment and skill list (and if you want to play other gangs). Depending on what's in the mini-rulebook, you might also need the Book of Judgment for full Enforcer content. Even at $290, you might need to spend another $50-$150 for a full Necromunda experience. It's absurd that it is approaching $500 (or 10% of a kidney).

And chances are, if you already play Necromunda or just want the terrain, there's a lot of stuff in the box you don't need and don't want to pay for. I'm not sure how much of a discount this $290 box could potentially be, but almost certainly that discount is eaten away by the rulebooks, dice, template, board, and tokens - you'll be better served waiting for the individual releases. Except that the individual releases probably won't come until this box is gone, so there will be no way to tell if this box even has a discount until it is too late. Right now, the only way I can even see a discount is if the Zone Mortalis releases are Blood of the Phoenix level of pricing stupidity.

And if you don't already play Necromunda, this box gives you almost everything you need at the low, low cost of $290. I don't see a lot of people thinking, "gee, I'm really not sure if I'll enjoy this game, much less can get a bunch of likeminded individuals to buy in to play a campaign with, if only there was a starter set that cost 6% of a kidney so that I could dip my toes in". At least Adeptus Titanicus at $300 made sense because it included two $100 models and could work as a two player starter, or a one player army box - it isn't really possible to cheaply dip your toes into AT. It's a premium, niche game. Necromunda isn't (or shouldn't be).

I'm just completely bewildered by this release. Necromunda has a confusing set of books to buy and starting options (ask "Should I start with the Underhive starter set?" and get 30 different responses). It could really benefit from a "Yes, start here" box, and Dark Uprising isn't that box. Not at 6% of a kidney.

What they'd ideally have is a "Start here" bundle: Rulebook, dice, templates, and a gang box of your choice. Even more ideal would be to have that as a starter box. Obviously, the fact that currently you seem to always need at least 2 rulebooks to run any given gang and start playing doesn't help.

Add some support to setting up campaigns in stores and many more people might be interested - a box of 10 models, a book and some dice to start playing campaigns? Yes please!

 Insane Ivan wrote:
What they'd ideally have is a "Start here" bundle: Rulebook, dice, templates, and a gang box of your choice. Even more ideal would be to have that as a starter box. Obviously, the fact that currently you seem to always need at least 2 rulebooks to run any given gang and start playing doesn't help.

I think the rulebook is where they need to start. They need a cheap rulebook (maybe digest sized) with just the rules for playing, along with a small gang starter booklet that has units and basic (on the sprue) equipment for a particular gang box. This is probably what the Dark Uprising rulebook will be, but being exclusive to a $300 box set doesn't really make it a good starter rulebook.

I like the Gang War and Book of books (I might be the only one), but they really only work as expansions. They build on the previous stuff extensively and assume you already have it. Like, if you want to play Enforcers, I don't think it includes full equipment lists or trading post info (it has the black market trading post content though), so you still need the Gangs book. No doubt that Corpsegrinder Cult in the Book of Ruin will still require the Gangs book as well. I guess we'll need a Gangs 2 book at some point.

Add some support to setting up campaigns in stores and many more people might be interested - a box of 10 models, a book and some dice to start playing campaigns? Yes please!

Right now, the biggest obstacle to starting Necromunda might be that all the dice are limited print, and only the Enforcer dice are currently available. I'm happy that GW is finally releasing generic Necromunda dice, but hopefully, they'll stick around long enough that the $290 "starter" box doesn't become the only place to get dice for new players.

 Insane Ivan wrote:
What they'd ideally have is a "Start here" bundle: Rulebook, dice, templates, and a gang box of your choice. Even more ideal would be to have that as a starter box. Obviously, the fact that currently you seem to always need at least 2 rulebooks to run any given gang and start playing doesn't help.

Add some support to setting up campaigns in stores and many more people might be interested - a box of 10 models, a book and some dice to start playing campaigns? Yes please!

What they'd ideally have is what they did back then:



A complete system that you can play right out of the box and that you can keep playing right out of the box.

But, alas, that is not what GW is nowadays, what with their dlc system.

Wait, how does that machine work? Does the pipe pump body parts into the vat, and the claw picks bits up and puts it on the ramp? Why does the vat look like its liquefying and boiling down bodies then?
Its an impressive bit of terrain, but I'm having trouble working out what its supposed to be doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Insane Ivan wrote:
What they'd ideally have is a "Start here" bundle: Rulebook, dice, templates, and a gang box of your choice. Even more ideal would be to have that as a starter box. Obviously, the fact that currently you seem to always need at least 2 rulebooks to run any given gang and start playing doesn't help.

Add some support to setting up campaigns in stores and many more people might be interested - a box of 10 models, a book and some dice to start playing campaigns? Yes please!

What they'd ideally have is what they did back then:



A complete system that you can play right out of the box and that you can keep playing right out of the box.

But, alas, that is not what GW is nowadays, what with their dlc system.

Whilst it is a pity, at least the terrain you get now is pretty nice. In that box set you get cardboard, with what GW sells now its detailed plastic.
Personally though I miss how GW would give instructions on how to make your own terrain. In the 4th ed Warhammer 40k BRB there were instructions on how to make a gaming table, craters and bunkers, and in the 3rd necron codex there were instructions on making necron crystals from foam.

 Albertorius wrote:

A complete system that you can play right out of the box and that you can keep playing right out of the box.

But, alas, that is not what GW is nowadays, what with their dlc system.

They figured a way to increase income by reducing quality and longevity.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whilst it is a pity, at least the terrain you get now is pretty nice. In that box set you get cardboard, with what GW sells now its detailed plastic.

Cardboard terrain can be pretty nice too, and you can get a lot of it for a fraction of the cost. For a "starter set", cardboard terrain is more than an adequate compromise. It would be better if GW could get a Necromunda starter under $150 with cardboard terrain (like Infinity's Operation: Wildfire) than for them to do one for twice the price.

I mean, why doesn't GW do cardboard terrain? It seemed to be a pretty big selling point for old Necromunda and Mordheim. It could've shaved off $50 from Adeptus Titanicus' GME box (especially when the terrain included is inadequate). You'd be better off using the Monsterpocalypse cardboard apartment buildings (which I still use). In fact, I've seen people who still have their Necromunda cardboard terrain... Maybe that's why GW doesn't do it? Cardboard might be just good enough that nobody would buy the considerably more expensive plastic stuff.

 Sqorgar wrote:

I like the Gang War and Book of books (I might be the only one), but they really only work as expansions. They build on the previous stuff extensively and assume you already have it. Like, if you want to play Enforcers, I don't think it includes full equipment lists or trading post info (it has the black market trading post content though), so you still need the Gangs book. No doubt that Corpsegrinder Cult in the Book of Ruin will still require the Gangs book as well. I guess we'll need a Gangs 2 book at some point.

How to decide between internal inconsistencies (page x have conflicting rules with page y) and how to deal with external inconsistencies (new rules have conflicting with previous rules). How to make broken/unfinished rules work?

Baxx wrote:
How to decide between internal inconsistencies (page x have conflicting rules with page y) and how to deal with external inconsistencies (new rules have conflicting with previous rules). How to make broken/unfinished rules work?

You just do it?

Necromunda, more than any other game out there except maybe Age of Sigmar pre-points, is more of a sandbox of ideas than a deliberate way to play. You aren't meant to do everything all the time. You pick and choose what you want to play with. The game has very obvious delineations in play (campaigns) where any specific rule or idea only has to last for the season. THIS season, the rules work like this. NEXT season, we'll revisit.

The game is unbalanced, but that's okay. Make your own balance. The game has inconsistencies. Pick the version you like and stick with for the rest of the campaign. Six different campaigns? Play whatever, and maybe next time, play something else with a new warband. Don't like this scenario? Don't play it. These figures don't have models for these weapons? Cut them off a different figure that does. It's your game, do what you want with it. It's one of the few major miniature games that has built in support for a GM. Let the Arbitrator do some of the heavy lifting.

People had trouble with pre-points Age of Sigmar too. The idea that you are a partner in the game rules rather than a slave to them must be a really troublesome concept.

 Sqorgar wrote:
It's one of the few major miniature games that has built in support for a GM. Let the Arbitrator do some of the heavy lifting.

...is that supposed to be a good thing..?

It's broken so we can have a third person fix it for us? Yay.


It's odd that I never encountered anyone when playing old Necromunda who said, 'Gee, I sure do wish this rules system required us to have an extra person to fix all of the holes and contradictions for us, rather than us just being able to play the game as it comes'.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
It's one of the few major miniature games that has built in support for a GM. Let the Arbitrator do some of the heavy lifting.

...is that supposed to be a good thing..?

For a narrative game? I think so. Do you think Dungeons & Dragons would be better without a Dungeonmaster? Do you think a tv show is better with a creative showrunner?

I'm reading through the new Frostgrave book, Perilous Dark, and the majority of the book is not "rules you can use", but is more intended as ruminations and suggestions for how a GM-type person could create solo/cooperative scenarios for their Frostgrave group. So far, I haven't seen any reviews going "Ugh. Why is he teaching us how to fish? Why can't he just give us the fish, like we want?"

 Sqorgar wrote:

Necromunda, more than any other game out there except maybe Age of Sigmar pre-points, is more of a sandbox of ideas than a deliberate way to play. You aren't meant to do everything all the time. You pick and choose what you want to play with. The game has very obvious delineations in play (campaigns) where any specific rule or idea only has to last for the season. THIS season, the rules work like this. NEXT season, we'll revisit.

The game is unbalanced, but that's okay. Make your own balance. The game has inconsistencies. Pick the version you like and stick with for the rest of the campaign. Six different campaigns? Play whatever, and maybe next time, play something else with a new warband. Don't like this scenario? Don't play it. These figures don't have models for these weapons? Cut them off a different figure that does. It's your game, do what you want with it. It's one of the few major miniature games that has built in support for a GM. Let the Arbitrator do some of the heavy lifting.

People had trouble with pre-points Age of Sigmar too. The idea that you are a partner in the game rules rather than a slave to them must be a really troublesome concept.

Blood Bowl is also EXTREMELY sandbox. Players agree to use any combinations of the optional components. Same for Necromunda, players can agree to try different things to include. Difference is, the rules for all the components in Blood Bowl actually work. For Necromunda they don't. GW didn't ommit rules or write broken rules for the purpose of open sandbox, but because they are sloppy and forget. It's been said on Yaktribe that ideas are cheap. I need actual playable rules, not loose guidelines!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait, how does that machine work? Does the pipe pump body parts into the vat, and the claw picks bits up and puts it on the ramp? Why does the vat look like its liquefying and boiling down bodies then?
Its an impressive bit of terrain, but I'm having trouble working out what its supposed to be doing.

Simple:
Bodies are dumped in the round mixer. Other semi-organic matter is added through the pipe.
The crane carefully picks upp any flensed skulls that surface, and place them on the conveyor which dumps them in the skull box - to be cleaned and sold as home decoration and/or to add that important grimdark touch to battlefields all over the galaxy.

The old Necromunda box's contents were actually what kept me from buying into modern Necromunda.



Yes, it was cardboard, but it was good cardboard, modular and fitted with the lovely plastic bulkheads (which were used in a ton of pretty solid cardboard terrain for the next several years). You received two gangs (and yep, the minis were pretty crap...BUT...they were actually peg-modular, with swappable arms/weapons). You received *gasp* rules for 3D play which you didn't have to buy after the fact. You had a full campaign setting, and also *gasp* rules existed for things that weren't out yet...and you weren't limited by what models came with in the plastic sprues. Options existed in the rulebook that were never actually available as miniatures. You just bashed them up yourself.

Also worth noting, the rulebook was concise with pretty much zero typos, errors, conflicting rules, etc. The writing from GW was far superior back then. The new books (when originally released) were so laughably bad...it was shocking. I only assume the newest revised versions are at least fixed.

It wasn't sold as "part" of a game, but a full game. You could buy the expansions, but you weren't required to. You could play for years with the basic Necromunda box if you wanted. The new take on Necromunda was so painfully "GW" that I simply couldn't get into it, even now with the finalized books I'm unlikely to get into it. GW, for all their praise, has really gone the opposite direction of how cool they were in the 90's. That's not a good thing for a lot of us old enough to remember.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
It's one of the few major miniature games that has built in support for a GM. Let the Arbitrator do some of the heavy lifting.

...is that supposed to be a good thing..?

It's broken so we can have a third person fix it for us? Yay.


It's odd that I never encountered anyone when playing old Necromunda who said, 'Gee, I sure do wish this rules system required us to have an extra person to fix all of the holes and contradictions for us, rather than us just being able to play the game as it comes'.

Yeah that's exactly it! Build a solid foundation without needing massive amount of house rules. Then add any amount of sandboxes and arbitrators on top of that solid foundation.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
It's one of the few major miniature games that has built in support for a GM. Let the Arbitrator do some of the heavy lifting.

...is that supposed to be a good thing..?

For a narrative game? I think so. Do you think Dungeons & Dragons would be better without a Dungeonmaster? Do you think a tv show is better with a creative showrunner?

I'm reading through the new Frostgrave book, Perilous Dark, and the majority of the book is not "rules you can use", but is more intended as ruminations and suggestions for how a GM-type person could create solo/cooperative scenarios for their Frostgrave group. So far, I haven't seen any reviews going "Ugh. Why is he teaching us how to fish? Why can't he just give us the fish, like we want?"

"Having a DM" and "Rules not working" are different, non-exclusionary things.

Needing a GM to play is not a bad thing. Having rules that don't work is. Having multiple, conflicting rules for the same thing usually is too.

 Albertorius wrote:
"Having a DM" and "Rules not working" are different, non-exclusionary things.

True, but "Having a DM" can be a workable answer to "Rules not Working".

And I'm not saying they need to be in a traditional DM role. Just have one guy in charge of the campaign who makes the final ruling on these things, and communicates that ruling to the other players. Like an email that says "In the last game, Harry tried to use item X, which has three different profiles in three different books. We've decided to use the profile from book Y, which will be the standard going forward in this campaign, but we should have a discussion about how to deal with it in future campaigns".

The real question- Are those Games Workshop Trademarked quality European Skulls, or southbound African Swollow brand Skulls?

This game is fine. You can play it either with or without a group. It doesn't matter. This having a third party "Arbitrator" isn't that big a deal, and your making more out of it then it really is. There honestly is no need for that third person, but it helps when you have more then one player, and the gangs games are interrelated within your group.

My personal example is that we played this game on like four or five tables, and later as the gangs had different tables they changed over to were fighting other issues as well as the gangs, and you have that third guy roaming around dropping in the enemies, as well as making calls when you walked over a chit, or a cardstock card that represented either an additional enemy, or treasure part, or equipment. Sometimes it turned into an additional scenario within a scenario, such as "Kill Gang leader, take his head back to X, or Clear out the zombie horde, or You get attacked by giant spiders or rats or something...

You have to make your Necromunda game YOUR game, and all of the additional add ons are just that, additional.

you can fight just gang fights, or fight over additional territories or landmarks, or resources, as well as fight a dragon or Ambull, or renegade robot, or a squad of chaos warriors, or cultists as they run through your gangs territories... The choice comes to what you want to put into and get out of your game time.

Baxx: ”... Build a solid foundation ...”

Yes, I think this is exactly what Necromunda needs.

What we see now is a bunch of releases that fail mostly because of the lack of strong and well documented core rules.
I hope we get a basic rulebook without fluff and with chapters for all basic actions and reactions - and a good Index!

How are the players and GMs supposed to learn the rules - especially when they keep changing and the creators themselves have no clue whatsoever.

Our group mostly make rules up as we go as the myriad of books, the hard to read grey pages, the confusing layout and the lack of Indexes makes it really hard to find the rule in question - and even if you happen to find it, the wording is often unclear, not to mention the risk of other versions of the rule appearing in other books aswell.

Necromunda is one of the best games I have ever played - but the rulebooks are definitely the worst...

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
"Having a DM" and "Rules not working" are different, non-exclusionary things.

True, but "Having a DM" can be a workable answer to "Rules not Working".

And I'm not saying they need to be in a traditional DM role. Just have one guy in charge of the campaign who makes the final ruling on these things, and communicates that ruling to the other players. Like an email that says "In the last game, Harry tried to use item X, which has three different profiles in three different books. We've decided to use the profile from book Y, which will be the standard going forward in this campaign, but we should have a discussion about how to deal with it in future campaigns".

It's so easy, and takes all of about 5 minutes. It's called communication, and while I understand personally the struggle of social anxiety and the like, I still am not going to let that ruin my gaming fun.

I just played a game of 40k in a campaign. Half of the rules we were making up on the spot and that was a frustrating experience. If the organizers of the campaign had sat everyone down to explain the process from the get-go, there would have been zero questions and no interrupt in the gameplay to argue a bunch of crap. If the campaign organizer had been a GM instead of in the game trying to kick our butts, that would have been helpful too, since it would have at least felt like there was a semi-impartial 3rd party.

This has much more to do with people communicating their desires for the kind of game they want to play and a lot less to do with the rules being bad.

drbored wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
"Having a DM" and "Rules not working" are different, non-exclusionary things.

True, but "Having a DM" can be a workable answer to "Rules not Working".

And I'm not saying they need to be in a traditional DM role. Just have one guy in charge of the campaign who makes the final ruling on these things, and communicates that ruling to the other players. Like an email that says "In the last game, Harry tried to use item X, which has three different profiles in three different books. We've decided to use the profile from book Y, which will be the standard going forward in this campaign, but we should have a discussion about how to deal with it in future campaigns".

It's so easy, and takes all of about 5 minutes. It's called communication, and while I understand personally the struggle of social anxiety and the like, I still am not going to let that ruin my gaming fun.

I just played a game of 40k in a campaign. Half of the rules we were making up on the spot and that was a frustrating experience. If the organizers of the campaign had sat everyone down to explain the process from the get-go, there would have been zero questions and no interrupt in the gameplay to argue a bunch of crap. If the campaign organizer had been a GM instead of in the game trying to kick our butts, that would have been helpful too, since it would have at least felt like there was a semi-impartial 3rd party.

This has much more to do with people communicating their desires for the kind of game they want to play and a lot less to do with the rules being bad.

You havent played Necromunda have you?
Please go to Yaktribe, read the YAQ with hundreds of questions regarding how to interpret the rules, which stats might be the right ones, etc. - there are no official answers and to come up with your own and communicate them would require a thousand times the ”5 minutes” mentioned. Not to mention the cruelty to your players inboxes

drbored wrote:

It's so easy, and takes all of about 5 minutes.

You spent 5 minutes on something I spent weeks doing.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
"Having a DM" and "Rules not working" are different, non-exclusionary things.

True, but "Having a DM" can be a workable answer to "Rules not Working".

And I'm not saying they need to be in a traditional DM role. Just have one guy in charge of the campaign who makes the final ruling on these things, and communicates that ruling to the other players. Like an email that says "In the last game, Harry tried to use item X, which has three different profiles in three different books. We've decided to use the profile from book Y, which will be the standard going forward in this campaign, but we should have a discussion about how to deal with it in future campaigns".

I would say exactly the same if this were an RPG: just because there is a GM doesn't mean that the rules can be crap. The GM already has enough in their plate to also have to fix the game just because the designers are lazy. That excuse is no excuse at all.

I paid for the rules, so I want them to work, same as I would if I had bought a phone, or a car. If I want to upgrade them afterwards, or change stuff around, that's my prerogative. Having to fix them beforehand because the rules don't work is a no deal.

And that's the main reason I'm not playing Necromunda, right now.

For reference: I've been working making and translating RPGs for the last 15 years, and I regularly playtest games made by other people.

Any chance you gents could take the rules debate to another sub-forum?

 zedmeister wrote:
Any chance you gents could take the rules debate to another sub-forum?

All Necromunda discussions on this board eventually devolve into Baxx listing all the errors in all the books of Necromunda and complaining about the sheet of house rules he maintains. Doesn't matter which subforum it's in.

^ It is starting to look like that, isn't it...

I got word that this new set is going to have a rewrite of some of the stuff in the rulebook. Any word on that?

What is new, and what is changing?

It's almost as if those things continue to be relevant so long as they continue to exist.

*checks rules*

Yup, they still exist. Would you take bets that similar issues aren't going to arise with the next book, and the one after?

Baxx may be labouring the point a little, but the fact is there is a structural problem with how GW are producing the Necromunda rules, and we shouldn't be OK with it because the absolute minimum we should be able to expect for such premium prices is that the end product be properly proofread and edited.

 Grot 6 wrote:
I got word that this new set is going to have a rewrite of some of the stuff in the rulebook. Any word on that?

I don't think they've mentioned exactly, but apparently it will include the FAQ and errata, and I vaguely remember them maybe saying the FAQ & errata document would be updated with this release. Not sure on that second point. I was still fuming after they made a joke about making my wallet cry.

Not sure they will be making mine even sniffle, this time.

 Sqorgar wrote:
All Necromunda discussions on this board eventually devolve into Baxx listing all the errors in all the books of Necromunda and complaining about the sheet of house rules he maintains. Doesn't matter which subforum it's in.

Is it a problem for you to discuss when someone disagrees with you? I'll give you a break, please continue discussing how much any new piece of product will cost, or other meaningful topics!

I don't know about you, but to me the state of the rules seem to be at least tangentially related with the new releases for a game.

Yodhrin wrote:Baxx may be labouring the point a little, but the fact is there is a structural problem with how GW are producing the Necromunda rules, and we shouldn't be OK with it because the absolute minimum we should be able to expect for such premium prices is that the end product be properly proofread and edited.

Labouring the point is putting it mildly.

Baxx wrote:Is it a problem for you to discuss when someone disagrees with you? I'll give you a break, please continue discussing how much any new piece of product will cost, or other meaningful topics!

It gets really annoying when a news and rumour thread gets bumped to the top and, upon opening, instead of seeing either news or rumours, we're treated to the same discussion over the state of the rules for the forth or fifth time, at least, in this thread. And so goes the merry go round with the same arguments, complaints and hyperbole until a mod comes in to give us all a bollocking. I've found your posts on inconsistencies you've actually spotted to be welcome and useful, but your endless pontificating about the state of the rules as it stands detracts from it all.

Enforcers are looking great!

 zedmeister wrote:

Labouring the point is putting it mildly.

I'll take your word for it, sorry for repeating myself over again.

I do have to concur that the N&R thread really is not the place for that, if you want o continue that discussion can you please create a thread for it in the Specialist Games sub.

Is there word on the Enforcers equipment release, or are there more then one sniper rifle with the new set?

 Grot 6 wrote:
Is there word on the Enforcers equipment release, or are there more then one sniper rifle with the new set?

The new set is one of the existing Enforcers sprue and 2 Subjugator sprues (with 3 models each). I don’t think the Subjugators have sniper rifles.

Sniper rifles are available to Palanites only. Subjugstors have no access to any special weapons what so ever.

Is it possible that the Subjugator sprue will also function as an upgrade sprue for the regular Enforcers?

 Sqorgar wrote:
Is it possible that the Subjugator sprue will also function as an upgrade sprue for the regular Enforcers?

Yes, they can use the autopistol.

Meanwhile subjucator also can use stubgun, if that is your thing.......

Community preorder article

The 285 decals include gang symbols, motivational slogans, hazard warnings, sector numbers, arrows, voltage symbols, Enforcer icons and more, allowing you to really personalise your corner of Necromunda. They’re also great for decorating any Warhammer 40,000 scenery, and just imagine how much time you’ll save by not having to make 285 tiny graffiti stencils!

Build your own sector of the underhive with the Zone Mortalis Floor Tile Set – they’re perfect whether you want to create narrow corridors, abandoned dwellings or sprawling industrial complexes. Each tile features gridded floorplates and vents, and they’re designed to be compatible with the Zone Mortalis terrain in the Necromunda: Dark Uprising boxed set or any of our Sector Mechanicus kits. They’re also ideal if you want to create a Warhammer 40,000 or The Horus Heresy battlefield.

You also get 17 sprues of terrain, including 15 of new, plastic Zone Mortalis walls, columns, platforms and doors. These are the first-ever plastic Zone Mortalis kits and can be put together in innumerable ways. Whether you play Necromunda, Warhammer 40,000 or The Horus Heresy, you’ll want to get your hands on these so that you can combine the closeness of indoor firefights with the verticality and immersion of outdoor battles.

Just in case the box isn’t full enough, you also get a rulebook, which contains lore, background, all of the core rules of Necromunda and the two gangs in the box, and a new campaign. And you’ll get all of the accessories that you need to play. Phew!

17 sprues of terrain is more than twice the amount of Warcry starter (assuming full-size sprues). I already have a metric ton of terrain so I am going to buy only one set for now.

Don't think I can justify the $290...might just buy a bunch of the Corpse Grinders to use as cultists in my Word Bearers force off eBay for now.

Soon officially get to know the price but looking more and more like the 290

So the rumors were all true and we're looking at a $290 starter set for a GW release.

Well I think that just put the dagger in my desire to keep up with the Necromunda releases any longer. 5 or 10 years ago everything they've done with Necromunda would have been my dream scenario, but we're now 2 years in and I play so infrequently I literally can't get a game in with the current rules before new stuff is out. I've still bought it all to support Specialist Games hoping I'd one day just have everything to run any kind of campaign I wanted. Unfortunately it's simply just easier to stick with Kill Team and not worry about stuff being invalidated or having to buy a new book for each faction.

Hopefully the Zone Mortalis stuff will be available separately, but this starter set is literally twice the cost of the original Kill Team set with comparable terrain, rules and only slightly more models.

Making a $160 starter set that's only available bundled with 2 $65 sets of plastic floor tiles does seem like a very weird choice.

The starter set does not include the plastic floor tiles.

They're just charging $290 for what previously would have been $160.

Yikes. I agree that's what the wording sounds like, but how can that terrain possibly fill 15 sprues? The Sector Mechanicus kits are 4 or 5 each.

Enforcers give vibes of robocop or judge dredd so much!

ecurtz wrote:
Making a $160 starter set that's only available bundled with 2 $65 sets of plastic floor tiles does seem like a very weird choice.

It doesn't have any floor tiles. It has a board or mat and Zone Mortalis _terrain_.

plastic Zone Mortalis walls, columns, platforms and doors.

Sprues don't have a defined size. That building can be spread across multiples, the box corners can be five sprues on their own , with pipes and stairs on separate sprues.

 Starfarer wrote:
The starter set does not include the plastic floor tiles.

They're just charging $290 for what previously would have been $160.

It seems a stretch to class it as a starter set, but I can't think of a starter set or otherwise that had that much in for £100 or less. Shadow war only had 8 terrain sprues from what I remember.

ecurtz wrote:
Yikes. I agree that's what the wording sounds like, but how can that terrain possibly fill 15 sprues? The Sector Mechanicus kits are 4 or 5 each.

Because this terrain is made from boxes and a box takes up literally 6 times as much sprue space as a flat panel.

puree wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
The starter set does not include the plastic floor tiles.

They're just charging $290 for what previously would have been $160.

It seems a stretch to class it as a starter set, but I can't think of a starter set or otherwise that had that much in for £100 or less. Shadow war only had 8 terrain sprues from what I remember.

Its funny, in some ways reading the 'Coming Soon' article, I felt like I was reading product description of a terrain box that just happened to have a couple gangs in it. As some sort of bonus.

ecurtz wrote:
Yikes. I agree that's what the wording sounds like, but how can that terrain possibly fill 15 sprues? The Sector Mechanicus kits are 4 or 5 each.

Sprues can sometimes be quite small.

I forsee a lot of repeated small sprues.

And we still have no idea how many plastic floors are in that tile box.

I keep seeing $290 thrown around (US I assume), where is this price coming from?

Necromunda terrain sprue (from Twitch):

 BroodSpawn wrote:
I keep seeing $290 thrown around (US I assume), where is this price coming from?

There was a massive leak of the release schedule from an independent retailer.

 Starfarer wrote:
So the rumors were all true and we're looking at a $290 starter set for a GW release.

Well I think that just put the dagger in my desire to keep up with the Necromunda releases any longer. 5 or 10 years ago everything they've done with Necromunda would have been my dream scenario, but we're now 2 years in and I play so infrequently I literally can't get a game in with the current rules before new stuff is out. I've still bought it all to support Specialist Games hoping I'd one day just have everything to run any kind of campaign I wanted. Unfortunately it's simply just easier to stick with Kill Team and not worry about stuff being invalidated or having to buy a new book for each faction.

Hopefully the Zone Mortalis stuff will be available separately, but this starter set is literally twice the cost of the original Kill Team set with comparable terrain, rules and only slightly more models.

I agree I can't pay that price. I was going to be in if it was under 200. This is rediculous for what you are getting. A good idea but at 290 i don't think they will get too many new players buying it at about the cost of a video gaming system or a 3d printer that could make most of it.

Secondhand, Lets hope the scalpers don't bend us over the table. But 290.00, that's not going to work, even on my Lottery Winnings.

If anything, I hope that they sell the gangs and terrain on their own, and I can just up and bet the books off Fee Bey for a portion of that price.

Is there any word on Juves, or the Special characters still outstanding from the last couple of books?

angel of death 007 wrote:

I agree I can't pay that price. I was going to be in if it was under 200. This is rediculous for what you are getting. A good idea but at 290 i don't think they will get too many new players buying it at about the cost of a video gaming system or a 3d printer that could make most of it.

Its certainly a weird price. If I see something for $299, I tend to think its a holiday sale for a piece of electronics that's normally $500 and is probably really worth $250 or maybe $300.

To start at $290, it comes across as a bizarrely artificial number- most prices have psychological studies and performance records attached to them. It entirely feels like GW is intentionally testing to see how far they can push prices until people push back. Especially since the material cost of my lunch today was probably higher than the material cost of the plastic goop that was poured into the moulds.

If they really feel that they had to push the price this high, they should've put less in the box and gone for a lower price point. Cut the gangs down to standard size (especially with all the duplicates anyway), leave out a few pipes and walls or whatever, and sell it for $199. I'd put good odds on a better reception.

Voss wrote:
It entirely feels like GW is intentionally testing to see how far they can push prices until people push back.

I wish they wouldn't do that on something niche, like Necromunda, which might see a push back as a lack of support from players... but that's not going to stop me from pushing back. $290 is really beyond the point of being polite.

$290?

LOL they can kiss the entirety of my backside.

I'll just be buying the book, and maybe when that terrain is for sale outside the box, I'll pick it up. No need to pay nearly $300 for 2 gangs I've got no interest in using (especially when Artel W makes better enforcers).

Yeah. 290 usd is a joke. And not a very funny one. Shame they’re going to shoot their own toes off with this one.

Dread Master wrote:
Yeah. 290 usd is a joke. And not a very funny one. Shame they’re going to shoot their own toes off with this one.

At best- and I mean, if you're lucky... you could find 2 people who really want those two factions and would pay $60 for 15 miniatures. And then you're still paying 170 bucks for a small amount of terrain, a folding poster "board" that'll get thrown in the trash, some dice that you probably don't need, cards that are probably already filled out like the first boxed set, and that's it.

At most the terrain will be in various size boxes, ranging from $50-$100. And the new book should run about $60.00. So you can probably get 2.5 times the terrain and the full rulebook for the price of this boxed set.

So unless you're into both of these factions and don't already have Enforcers, you'd be a fool to buy this instead of waiting to get the books and terrain separately.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I guess I'm a fool. I own zero Necromunda items(other than some old Enforcers in metal).

It looks like there's a lot of scenery in there, and Necromunda seems like a game that benefits from scenery.
And the Enforcers are so damn cool.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I guess I'm a fool. I own zero Necromunda items(other than some old Enforcers in metal).

It looks like there's a lot of scenery in there, and Necromunda seems like a game that benefits from scenery.
And the Enforcers are so damn cool.

They are a cool kit, even the ones available right now. If you don't own them, then it's not a stupid purchase.

You're basically getting 15 enforcers with what seems like a few more of their weapon upgrades- I'll say that's about a $60.00 value, give or take- considering a box of 10 is $40.
So you'll get them, and you'll get a set of dice- which will run about $15.00 for the faction dice, but the generic ones are just fine. Cards an all, eh...even if the ones in the box are all filled out, you can actually get better ones online for free.

So you're looking at a ~$75.00 value for the minis and dice alone. Now, find a buddy to throw you $60.00 for the Corpse Grinders- and since we know nothing about them at this point, that's a hard sell. Might wanna find a friend that plays Khorne armies and convince him they can be some kind of berserkers or something. Or maybe Marauders for Lost & Damned, with a little conversion work (should be easy based on their size). And maybe you'll get lucky and be able to sell him the other set of dice, roughly a $15.00 value.

So knocking 75 bucks off if you find that friend willing to go in with you, you're paying 205 bucks on your own, and minus your Enforcers and dice the rest of the contents are $140.00.

Now, it says it comes with a rulebook- and I doubt it'll be the hardback rulebook, so I'll say it's a $40.00 value. And it's got the core rules for your gangs in there, which will help you start out.

So, that means that the little poster play mat, the terrain, that little ruler, and templates are a $100.00 value. Okay, sure... mmmmaybe. For me, that box contains on thing I'd use and that's the terrain and maybe the red/black dice. And you'll have to work REALLY hard to convince me that I'm looking at over $70.00 worth of terrain. Especially since there's companies that make zone mortalis terrain for a LOT cheaper, and you get a LOT more. The included terrain looks like 2 solid walls, 2 doors, about 6-8 pillar/corner wall parts, and some stairs and walkways.

IMHO, if the box calls to you, then buy it. But it's a little steep for anyone who's already invested. We might not be the target customer here, but then again... even the 'new player' is going to struggle with that price. It's probably easier to acquire the items separately over time.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I guess I'm a fool. I own zero Necromunda items(other than some old Enforcers in metal).

It looks like there's a lot of scenery in there, and Necromunda seems like a game that benefits from scenery.
And the Enforcers are so damn cool.

There are value in that set, but for the average impulse-buying customer, those price aren't very tempting,

As this and the Phoenix Eldar boxes were being introduce, there were peals of Kirby laughter ala Palpatine in the new Star Wars trailers echoed down the halls in Nottingham

Chopstick wrote:

There are value in that set, but for the average impulse-buying customer, those price aren't very tempting,

My understanding is that Necromunda is one of the "splash release" games, where they tend to only show up week of releases. Is that not the case?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Chopstick wrote:

There are value in that set, but for the average impulse-buying customer, those price aren't very tempting,

My understanding is that Necromunda is one of the "splash release" games, where they tend to only show up week of releases. Is that not the case?

What do you mean? Necromunda along with other specialist game will have release every quarter, with teaser 1-3 months before release. The bigger game like AT or AI will have a faster release initially but after the that they'll be back to quarterly release like the rest.

It wasn't for N17, the box that released in 2017. In fact, it's still available on their webpage---complete with outdated core rulebook and all.

Along with the two hard cover books (Core and Gangs (both needed for play btw)) that replaced the starter's book and a year's worth of quarterly rule supplement releases

Almost a year's worth of quarterly updates.

Some of the things in the Gang War books remain only in the Gang War books.

Well, I guess I'll just keep printing walls then. Nevermind.

I'm hoping this box is a run like the other starter box, and I can just pick it up in six months when I have the money for it. Sorry GW the sisters release took all my money this month.

4 tiles per box confirmed (so 2x2, as predicted by some, it would seem).

Again, apologies if the pic doesn't work, but we have UK prices:



That's £175 for the new box. Closest thing I can find on the UK site to that is the Cauldron Guard "bundle" for Daughters of Khaine. It's £170. The same "bundle" on the Oz website is $369, so we're looking at easily $380 for this one box.

If the mods don't mind too much, I can link to some online stores in Oz that sell lube?

Ooof.

And indeed - crikey. That's a pricey meat-a-ball.

However, I have decided to sell my AT stuff (never gonna get a game in), so may have the fund to buy it through Element, my preferred online discounter.

I mean, the price tag is hefty, but given the mental volume of contents, I can't say it feels like a rip off in terms of UK prices (other prices and opinions upon are available, and likely very different).

The Titanicus GM box sold very well at this price. IDK if they'll have the same success here, the two games are very different beasts and many of the Necromunda buyers will have already bought elements of this box separately whereas everything in AT was new.

175pounds...
Dayam.

Sisters and/or this box... eek.
Maybe I need some more terrain.

The upside is the number of models for each Gang exceed what I'd expect for a starting Gang, so they allow for expansion.

Here, the only thing not completely new are the basic Enforcer models. Subjugators and Cultists are 100% new. ZM in plastic is of course new - but a rework of a previously resin thing,

Given the terrain is suitable for three systems (40k, HH and Necromunda) it's got an inherently wider appeal than AT (which is still a fine game) so may get decent sales figures.

Just wish we knew when the ZM walls and that were being released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm...provided it's the same 15% discount as the existing Necromunda set, it's a considerably more palatable £148.75 from Element, with loadsa Crystals.

Now to raise the funds....

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The upside is the number of models for each Gang exceed what I'd expect for a starting Gang, so they allow for expansion.

Here, the only thing not completely new are the basic Enforcer models. Subjugators and Cultists are 100% new. ZM in plastic is of course new - but a rework of a previously resin thing,

Given the terrain is suitable for three systems (40k, HH and Necromunda) it's got an inherently wider appeal than AT (which is still a fine game) so may get decent sales figures.

Just wish we knew when the ZM walls and that were being released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm...provided it's the same 15% discount as the existing Necromunda set, it's a considerably more palatable £148.75 from Element, with loadsa Crystals.

Now to raise the funds....

Isn't there some sort of rulebook here that many existing players don't want (and will stick to the older rules they've bought, which as I understand it is many books and supplements), or is all the rules stuff here new to this set?

Definitely a bit of sticker shock with this. It is a touch cheaper than the titanicus grand master edition. Here in Japan it will be ¥42,000 which is the equivalent of £299!

JWBS wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The upside is the number of models for each Gang exceed what I'd expect for a starting Gang, so they allow for expansion.

Here, the only thing not completely new are the basic Enforcer models. Subjugators and Cultists are 100% new. ZM in plastic is of course new - but a rework of a previously resin thing,

Given the terrain is suitable for three systems (40k, HH and Necromunda) it's got an inherently wider appeal than AT (which is still a fine game) so may get decent sales figures.

Just wish we knew when the ZM walls and that were being released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm...provided it's the same 15% discount as the existing Necromunda set, it's a considerably more palatable £148.75 from Element, with loadsa Crystals.

Now to raise the funds....

Isn't there some sort of rulebook here that many existing players don't want (and will stick to the older rules they've bought, which as I understand it is many books and supplements), or is all the rules stuff here new to this set?

Not a clue. When I looks, I just sees terrain.

All the terrain. All of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind you, it's just a mat included, and not the plastic floor tiles.


Oh Gods of Nice Things, why do you taunt me so!

So about a thousand quid if you want a full sized table with tiles and decent wall coverage.

Yeah, 3D printing it is.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
4 tiles per box confirmed (so 2x2, as predicted by some, it would seem).

Again, apologies if the pic doesn't work, but we have UK prices:



That's £175 for the new box. Closest thing I can find on the UK site to that is the Cauldron Guard "bundle" for Daughters of Khaine. It's £170. The same "bundle" on the Oz website is $369, so we're looking at easily $380 for this one box.

If the mods don't mind too much, I can link to some online stores in Oz that sell lube?

Do you know what the lower price to the left is (what GW is charging retailers perhaps?.....)

Looks like it to me.

Yikes that is very pricey for the box. Even with discounts they're really pricing people out.

Element usually do 20% if you pre-order it. I’m very much on the fence with this. That’s an expensive box!

Element is the only way to go for non-UK peeps too as they have unconditional flat rate shipping. Wayland et al. won't honor free shipping on a box this big.

On the one hand, I'm empathetic that they're making this entirely out of plastic and so realistically how cheap can we expect them to make it.

On the other hand, were I making a zone mortalis table for heresy games, just buying the plastic tile to cover a 4x6 table is USD 360. I shudder to think what the cost would be once you added in all the wall terrain for coverage similar to that of the original resin terrain.

What's sad about that is my gut cynicism says that a table of this stuff will likely amount to a comparable price to the original resin terrain, which was itself an extremely niche product that likely didn't sell at a very high volume. Admittedly, the new terrain will probably be a cleaner product (I've read the original resin pieces were consistently heavily warped on delivery), but they'll also require a lot of assembly work.

Creality is currently selling the ender 3 for 180 USD. You could buy two and still save money over buying this terrain. Very well designed zone mortalis 3D model files are easily found online if you look.

phillv85 wrote:
Element usually do 20% if you pre-order it. I’m very much on the fence with this. That’s an expensive box!

It is stupidly expensive, and I already have a 3d printer that makes me walls.

Much in the same vein that I don't buy characters because I don't want to encourage GW to see those prices as rational, I won't buy this one either.

EDIT: I mean, hell, it might not be quite as nice, but...



...well, that I have already.

Well I can see why the FW was discontinued it would have been cheaper.

So based on the price list above and the minimum margin GW will accept then these boxes are costing about £30.00 for GW to make. Nice little earner there for the quarter, should be enough to pad the financials against the GMB from last year.

I remember getting 50% off back when I worked there, and they didn't sell us at cost, so...

Was hoping the leaked price was a mistake. Appears not then.

Was thinking I might be tempted - some nice terrain, and models that I don't have any particular use for now, although I'm sure I could have done something with them in the future. Appears not then.

What I truly don't understand is that...plastic terrain is neat, but we have dozens and dozens of companies who put out attractive MDF style terrain that is easily used for Necromunda, for...1/3 or less the cost of this new plastic stuff. Are people that desperate for GW plastic that money is no option? (I understand the answer is essentially...yes).

A lot of the MDF varies in quality, but with some paint and scatter terrain, you can have a solid table.

Just one example is this for $120:


Or this (essentially an entire table) for $200:


This is $100 (though you have to provide your own soda-cans!)


I just don't see the "must have" features of the GW plastic terrain.

PS: For the record, I don't own any of this stuff, they just had the easiest pictures to grab. TT Combat makes great stuff for far cheaper as well (even cheaper than Promethium Forge).

Unboxing article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/04/necromunda-unboxing/

 Elbows wrote:
What I truly don't understand is that...plastic terrain is neat, but we have dozens and dozens of companies who put out attractive MDF style terrain that is easily used for Necromunda, for...1/3 or less the cost of this new plastic stuff. Are people that desperate for GW plastic that money is no option? (I understand the answer is essentially...yes).

A lot of the MDF varies in quality, but with some paint and scatter terrain, you can have a solid table.

A lot of people don't like working with MDF / think plastic is easier to work with, and MDF tends to break more - for example the GW Sector Mechanicus terrain at my local gaming club has never broken, but about half the TT Combat MDF stuff has.

I wouldn't buy that PF stuff for $120. That's a ridiculous price for MDF.

----

The 'Unboxing' is up... and they basically...don't.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/04/necromunda-unboxing/

You'd think they'd go over the details of the terrain sprues, but they don't do that- they just leave them piled up in all the pics except the very distant animated gif.

 Elbows wrote:
What I truly don't understand is that...plastic terrain is neat, but we have dozens and dozens of companies who put out attractive MDF style terrain that is easily used for Necromunda, for...1/3 or less the cost of this new plastic stuff. Are people that desperate for GW plastic that money is no option? (I understand the answer is essentially...yes).

Unfortunately, there's a large number of people who just will not touch a product that is not GW. This might be out of genuinely not knowing there's alternatives, but I'm continually amazed by how many do it out of honest brand loyalty.These are the same people who will gladly fork out £20 to buy Citadel(tm) clippers, will only buy from the GW webstore, etc.

In the case of Necromunda however, I think long-term this terrain is more meant for 40k/Kill-Team. They've decided to theme it as a Necromunda release to potentially shift more boxes of that game, but much like the Primaris-inspired designs of Enforcers, I see more people talking about it's potential use for 40k boards than Necromunda. It's audience tends to be a fair bit older and pretty much exclusively in LFGS/homes rather than GW stores, which means those people probably do already buy into MDF terrain or have made their own.

$230 3D printer. Might not be detailed enough for 28mm models but for terrain...

https://smile.amazon.com/Magic-Automatic-Aluminum-Filament-220x220x250mm/dp/B07PMJ723Y/ref=sr_1_2_sspa

 Elbows wrote:
What I truly don't understand is that...plastic terrain is neat, but we have dozens and dozens of companies who put out attractive MDF style terrain that is easily used for Necromunda, for...1/3 or less the cost of this new plastic stuff. Are people that desperate for GW plastic that money is no option? (I understand the answer is essentially...yes).

A lot of the MDF varies in quality, but with some paint and scatter terrain, you can have a solid table.

MDF breaks far more easily. But for me far more importantly, it doesn't capture the 40k aesthetic at all. Even the higher quality stuff generally still looks like cheap flat wood to me. And in the end I fell in love with 40k because of its looks. Also the reason why a flat gaming mat will never invoke the same feeling a fully sculpted table has, even if mats are easier to play with.

Paper mat? Not even one of the cardboard ones like from Kill Team or Warcry?

 Elbows wrote:
So, lazy people? Working with MDF is literally easier than plastic and I've never had any MDF terrain break despite owning...tons of it. I suppose maybe I'm just not a ham-fisted oaf?

I own a decent amount of MDF terrain, and there are some issues with MDF terrain.

The first is it soaks up water easily, so you have to seal it before you can prime it, as most gamers use water based primers and paints. The same problem arises if you try to use PVA glue without sealing it.

The second is that it's more difficult to glue together, as gluing large surfaces together with superglue/gorilla glue is a bit of a trial compared to working with plastics.

The third is that it has less surface detail/contour, which makes the go to fast techniques of shading and drybrushing less useful.

To top it off in that it looks very plain compared to most plastic and resin terrain, so to many gamers it can look quite 'cheap'. In many cases you could build similar terrain to MDF out of foamcore for a fraction of MDF's cost, so 'bargain' DIY terrain is just as good as MDF in many cases.

Overall, plastic terrain looks better, is more detailed and usually easier to put together and paint, so it's no surprise a lot of people prefer it. I've got resin, plastic, MDF and commercial modular foam core terrain and I prefer plastics overall.

looking at the gif, you get at least

2 of the stair sprues (top left, bottom right) doesn't look like any more of this one
3 of the 'cube' sprues (bottom left)
2 of the wall section sprue a (top right) maybe more
2 of the wall section sprue b (center below between 2 x a) maybe more
1 of the pipe sprue (below far right) doesn't look as if there's any more of this one
1 of the wide armoured door sprue (bottom pic, near middle) maybe 2
1 circular grill sprue (bottom pic near top) doesn't look like there are more



so 2 more to spot

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


looking at the gif, you get at least

2 of the stair sprues (top left, bottom right) doesn't look like any more of this one
3 of the 'cube' sprues (bottom left)
2 of the wall section sprue a (top right) maybe more
2 of the wall section sprue b (center below between 2 x a) maybe more
1 of the pipe sprue (below far right) doesn't look as if there's any more of this one
1 of the wide armoured door sprue (bottom pic, near middle) maybe 2
1 circular grill sprue (bottom pic near top) doesn't look like there are more

According to the last warhammer-community article there are 17 sprues of terrain, 15 of which are "Walls, Columns, Platforms, and Doors"

The two duplicate sprues are one sprue of plasma conduits and a sprue of necromunda barricades and objectives
Former on the far right of the pile, latter on the left behind the leftmost wall sprues

So would I be right in thinking not even enough to fill a set of the new plastic floor tiles?

SeanDrake wrote:
So would I be right in thinking not even enough to fill a set of the new plastic floor tiles?

Depends on your definition of 'fill'. A plastic floor tile set is going to be what, 2 feet by 2 feet? About the size of the playmat?

SeanDrake wrote:
So would I be right in thinking not even enough to fill a set of the new plastic floor tiles?

Well you can see exactly how much it fills up on the box pictures. The floor set is the same size as the paper mat in the box.

SeanDrake wrote:
So would I be right in thinking not even enough to fill a set of the new plastic floor tiles?

Define "fill"
Not enough to duplicate 4 Forgeworld Tiles (ie 2x2).
But enough to make areas [that are still playable] with more open space than (most) of those tiles had.

edit: clarification

 Arbitrator wrote:
Unfortunately, there's a large number of people who just will not touch a product that is not GW. This might be out of genuinely not knowing there's alternatives, but I'm continually amazed by how many do it out of honest brand loyalty.These are the same people who will gladly fork out £20 to buy Citadel(tm) clippers, will only buy from the GW webstore, etc.

When I worked at an FLGS we had a few customers like that. One guy in particular I'll never forget, didn't like to play but he LOVED to build and paint complete armies, refused to buy anything besides GW, absolutely refused to use non-GW materials or even tools. I couldn't even get him to use Kneadatite brand greenstuff, which was $16 for a 36" versus GW's greenstuff, $10 for 8". They are literally the same product, GW just puts their logo on kneadatite and re-sells it for triple+ the price, but without that GW logo he wouldn't touch it. GW glue, GW paint, GW tools, whole 9 yards. Still confuses me to this day, but they're like that.

I'd love to get that new terrain, but that is just WAY too much for it. I've used plenty of MDF in the past, it's not hard to work with once you know how (key is priming it with spray enamel instead of regular primer), but I'd MUCH rather work with HIPS. Just not at that price, yowzas!

it's hard to know how much each piece of the wall will measure, right?

Ignoring the terrain discussion, there's something I can't figure out in the Subjugators sprue:

Part #32, right above the ram. What's that?

That's the heavy concussion ram.

So there's two different ram options?

Because 30A, 30B, and 31 seem to be the one they have shown on the built models but 32 looks almost like that weird laser-ish carbine the basic Enforcers have.

There's the SLHG pattern assault ram ‘sledge hammer’. which is a grenade launcher/door busting ram, and then the heavy version of the concussion carbine, the Heavy Concussion Ram.

Cool, thanks! I wasn't sure if there was some kind of crowd suppression weapon that might be in there.

It's a really cool weapon. A lot of people are passing on it because it doesn't have Blast but S4, 15"/30" range, -1AP and seismic is still pretty good imho. I actually think it not having Blast is a misprint because it seems odd that the light carbine version affects a larger area than the apparently laser-focused "sound blast" of the heavier one.

question of my own: which bits are autopistols and which are stubguns? You'd think I wouldn't have such a hard time with this but all of the pistols look chunky enough to go either way.

Do Enforcers themselves have any options that aren't in the current box, or would I be safe playing around with what's there?

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
What I truly don't understand is that...plastic terrain is neat, but we have dozens and dozens of companies who put out attractive MDF style terrain that is easily used for Necromunda, for...1/3 or less the cost of this new plastic stuff. Are people that desperate for GW plastic that money is no option? (I understand the answer is essentially...yes).

Unfortunately, there's a large number of people who just will not touch a product that is not GW. This might be out of genuinely not knowing there's alternatives, but I'm continually amazed by how many do it out of honest brand loyalty.These are the same people who will gladly fork out £20 to buy Citadel(tm) clippers, will only buy from the GW webstore, etc.

In the case of Necromunda however, I think long-term this terrain is more meant for 40k/Kill-Team. They've decided to theme it as a Necromunda release to potentially shift more boxes of that game, but much like the Primaris-inspired designs of Enforcers, I see more people talking about it's potential use for 40k boards than Necromunda. It's audience tends to be a fair bit older and pretty much exclusively in LFGS/homes rather than GW stores, which means those people probably do already buy into MDF terrain or have made their own.

Bingo.

Plus, a base, a dry brush, some detailing and a wash and the plastic stuff looks ... more realistic in the immersive sense.
Same reason playing with unpainted models is a sin.

I love those enforcers for a local requisition and addition to an Inquisitor's amassed forces..

So figure they'll be 6 to a box for $40.

And I'll buy it anyway?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do Enforcers themselves have any options that aren't in the current box, or would I be safe playing around with what's there?

They're missing the shock stave (I converted one by cutting two shock batons and making a longer double sided one lol) but besides that, and the ONE concussion carbine they have tied to a single arm option the kit is very solid imho. You can make pretty much any non-subjugator patrolman you want.
I had to cut up a shotgun and the concussion carbine to make a patrolman that didn't pose like a leader, though.

Does anyone know the rationale for the $290 US vs £175 UK? xe.com puts that exchange closer to $225 and £175 to the best of my knowledge includes 20% VAT which puts this closer to $180 US after the exchange.

I imagine this is in most other GW products at the moment, but this is the first time in recent years I've taken a look.

 Albertorius wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
Element usually do 20% if you pre-order it. I’m very much on the fence with this. That’s an expensive box!

It is stupidly expensive, and I already have a 3d printer that makes me walls.

Much in the same vein that I don't buy characters because I don't want to encourage GW to see those prices as rational, I won't buy this one either.

EDIT: I mean, hell, it might not be quite as nice, but...

Spoiler:

...well, that I have already.

How much does the plastic cost to print that pictured?

witchdoctor wrote:
Does anyone know the rationale for the $290 US vs £175 UK? xe.com puts that exchange closer to $225 and £175 to the best of my knowledge includes 20% VAT which puts this closer to $180 US after the exchange.

I imagine this is in most other GW products at the moment, but this is the first time in recent years I've taken a look.

Go and look up pretty much anything on GW's site and compare the prices, US prices are (as a rule of thumb) about 30% above the VAT price, Australia has it even worse.

witchdoctor wrote:
Does anyone know the rationale for the $290 US vs £175 UK? xe.com puts that exchange closer to $225 and £175 to the best of my knowledge includes 20% VAT which puts this closer to $180 US after the exchange.

I imagine this is in most other GW products at the moment, but this is the first time in recent years I've taken a look.

1t 175, 20% off, makes it 150USd - but maybe not given what I have just read above.
Not so heavy - complete game.

zamerion wrote:
it's hard to know how much each piece of the wall will measure, right?

No, it's incredibly easy. Just measure the walls printed on the Necromunda 2017 card tiles.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

zamerion wrote:
it's hard to know how much each piece of the wall will measure, right?

No, it's incredibly easy. Just measure the walls printed on the Necromunda 2017 card tiles.

The Sisters of terrain ...
I wondered why they didn't make more of that stuff for about a minute.
it was awesome.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

zamerion wrote:
it's hard to know how much each piece of the wall will measure, right?

No, it's incredibly easy. Just measure the walls printed on the Necromunda 2017 card tiles.

true

Thanks

 John Prins wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
So, lazy people? Working with MDF is literally easier than plastic and I've never had any MDF terrain break despite owning...tons of it. I suppose maybe I'm just not a ham-fisted oaf?

I own a decent amount of MDF terrain, and there are some issues with MDF terrain.

The first is it soaks up water easily, so you have to seal it before you can prime it, as most gamers use water based primers and paints. The same problem arises if you try to use PVA glue without sealing it.

The second is that it's more difficult to glue together, as gluing large surfaces together with superglue/gorilla glue is a bit of a trial compared to working with plastics.

The third is that it has less surface detail/contour, which makes the go to fast techniques of shading and drybrushing less useful.

To top it off in that it looks very plain compared to most plastic and resin terrain, so to many gamers it can look quite 'cheap'. In many cases you could build similar terrain to MDF out of foamcore for a fraction of MDF's cost, so 'bargain' DIY terrain is just as good as MDF in many cases.

Overall, plastic terrain looks better, is more detailed and usually easier to put together and paint, so it's no surprise a lot of people prefer it. I've got resin, plastic, MDF and commercial modular foam core terrain and I prefer plastics overall.

And I appreciate that you feel that way. As someone who owns numerous tables worth of MDF from a variety of manufacturers (only decent ones, I don't bother with the cheap stuff) I simply disagree.

I've never had a single instance where I struggled to glue MDF together (not sure how that's possible). Also not sure why people have an issue priming it - never had an issue myself. The only time I can see spraying being an issue is if you're using an airbrush and not wanting to prime. Surface detail depends entirely on the kit, and in some instances I'd agree with you - but extra surface detail isn't worth the cost of plastic terrain. All I'm seeing here are vague (and inaccurate) arguments trying to justify spending an obscene amount on plastic - that, let's be honest, will be poorly cut out, glued and rarely painted on 60% of the tables it'll feature on.

People seem to act like this plastic sprue stuff is the second coming of Christ and I'm just not seeing it...particularly for the cost.

MDF is flat and featureless. It looks like cardboard yet costs significantly more.

Well, seeing the amount of sprues in this thing, I can see GW charging 290 USD for it. Though if they do charge that I feel that it's more along the lines of one of their "get everything from this new release bundles" they have on their online store which offer no savings as opposed to a proper starter set.

As cool as the models and terrain are, I doubt I'll get this to table very often and at 290 USD I'm giving this a solid pass. More money for Slaves to Darkness I guess.

 Elbows wrote:


I've never had a single instance where I struggled to glue MDF together (not sure how that's possible).

I guess it depends on what kits you're buying.

 Elbows wrote:
All I'm seeing here are vague (and inaccurate) arguments trying to justify spending an obscene amount on plastic

Kinda weird that you'd say that. I think the GW plastic looks vastly superior to the MDF stuff, and I barely own any (a couple of the Knight Renegade sets). What's vague about that exactly?

witchdoctor wrote:
Does anyone know the rationale for the $290 US vs £175 UK? xe.com puts that exchange closer to $225

You know the current exchange is an anomaly, right? Pound used to be worth ~2$, only with Brexgak idiocy it had fallen to 1.3$ and GW tends to stick to course it had over longer period, not what it is right now, to avoid risks. Otherwise kits from a month ago would have been super cheap as the clowns in charge of UK crashed pound to record lows.

And really, cherry-picking exchange rates when pound is down is favourite tool of various GW bashing trolls who pick say 1.21$ it had a month ago, ignoring that price lasted an hour or two, and whine loudly GW doesn't instantly convert all prices to this (with shipping and taxes being provided by magical fairies, I suppose). When you see anyone starting argument with this, especially certain really dumb youtube gakposter, you know whatever follows is not really worth listening to and can be safely instantly discarded...

It could have twice as much in the box for the same price and you'd still have a similar reaction to it being that price. The problem is less relative value and just absolute price. I think the problem with the price point is its running up against and going beyond peoples "well if I don't eat I can" limit. At some point its just too much to justify no matter what's in the set. Even with 20% off its in a similar territory.

I'm going to skip this one, not because I can't afford it but because I'd rather see GW focus its effort making more accessible sets.

frankr wrote:

witchdoctor wrote:
Does anyone know the rationale for the $290 US vs £175 UK? xe.com puts that exchange closer to $225 and £175 to the best of my knowledge includes 20% VAT which puts this closer to $180 US after the exchange.

I imagine this is in most other GW products at the moment, but this is the first time in recent years I've taken a look.

Go and look up pretty much anything on GW's site and compare the prices, US prices are (as a rule of thumb) about 30% above the VAT price, Australia has it even worse.

GW has always charged an American tax and a Aussie tax. They didn't on Forgeworld up until when the pound plummited then they went fishing there. GW makes their own exchange rate and USA always pays almost a 30% tax.

This plus the fact that they raised the base price for box sets like Feast of Bones from 160 to 195... and on a box set like Warcryish like this set going from $170 to $290. I can no longer justify the price rediculousness that is GW.

I was known for impulse buys, but luckily Blood of Phoenix, and Feast of Bones changed that, I justified not getting Feast of bones as I was going to get this set, but at $290, the boycott continues. Maybe it will get to the same extent for me like it was for 6th and 7th edition where I just switched gaming entirely and stopped buying GW. 8th and AoS brougtht me back, but the prices might just push me out entirely.

The Pound hasn't been worth $2 US in more than a decade, and it's been just under 5 years since it was last above $1.5 US. It will be interesting to see what GW do if the Pound really crashes, it would get harder and harder to enforce their max discount and no-export policies.

 aka_mythos wrote:
It could have twice as much in the box for the same price and you'd still have a similar reaction to it being that price. The problem is less relative value and just absolute price. I think the problem with the price point is its running up against and going beyond peoples "well if I don't eat I can" limit. At some point its just too much to justify no matter what's in the set. Even with 20% off its in a similar territory.

At that price, it is no longer being compared to other GW products. You aren't going "well, it's only $10 more than a Start Collecting". You are going "It's $10 less than a Switch or an iPad". The value leaves the GW bubble, and leaves the hobby market bubble, and goes straight into the consumer electronics market - which isn't measured in "well, if I skip a few lunches" and instead is measured in "well, that might be my big purchase for the month" or "this will be my Christmas present to myself"... But there's only so many months and Christmases...

I think the contents of this box would do much better when sold separately, even if it ends up being more than $290 as a whole. People will be able to break the purchases up into multiple ones, spread out over weeks, and they won't have to pay for things they don't need or want (some just want the terrain, some just want the gangs). I mean, I'm considering getting the Book of Ruin, but not this. As a bundle this expensive, it really doesn't make sense. It's strange that these bundles, which are supposed to save you money, are so expensive that the savings are less important than buying it piecemeal.