We'll we seemed to have drifting into referring to earlier iterations of the game. (Banelords, wreakers etc), seemingly the golden age of 2nd edition/Titan Legions/Space Marine/Epic. And in a dice based game you throw enough dice you'll do enough damage - hence the ability of Devastator/Artillery Companies to down titans.
Counter intuitively, the 'fluff' or stories are the last place to look to pin down what can or can't fell a god-engine. In the universe of 40k fiction lasguns one-shot dreadnoughts and Inquisitors can order their pet deamon to denoate a reactor in an otherwise mint-condition titan.
My take on the armor was based on 7th ed/ HH rule, which make S9 weapon like lascannon or Basilisk Earthshaker cannon shot bounce right off the WL front and side armor unless a 6 is rolled, and it had an armor save on top.
You know, The Nemesis Warbringer, regardless of race, is the first new Titan we’ve seen since.....erm......The Revenant, I think? In so far as ‘totally new’, rather than a subclass such as the Banelord.
That’s....that’s a long time. How long? 1995. I remember, because I had my first Saturday job, and remember realising whilst on lunch with my mate Paul I could totally afford them as we flicked through White Dwarf.
Welcome, Princeps, to Engine Kill! This is the first instalment in a new series that will bring you all the latest news and exclusive previews for Adeptus Titanicus
Alpharius wrote: The Warlord is already $110USD, so yeah, probably looking at - ugh - $150 here.
Ouch.
From the pic, it looks as if it is coming with the "Plasma Annihilator and Power Claw" configuration.
So that's $110 - weapons from FW are $18 when sold singly, so we're up to $128.
How much for a new head?
Yeah, looks like it'll be $150.
The warlord arm weapons are $24. One could figure another $20 or so for the head and arrive at a little over $150. However, I have trouble believing that beauty will be sold at the same price as a warlord plus a warlord weapon sprue. It almost has to come in higher with the kewlness/prestige/whatever factor. But I could be wrong. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's in the 150s.
So, $134 before we factor in the new head, which certainly doesn't look like it unduly tasked anyone when it came to sculpting, nor will it when it comes to casting it...
You're probably right though - as I'm sure that GW will do the usual "You won't field a lot of these, so each one HAS to cost more!" calculation.
I'm wondering what caused them to change release dates for preorders to Saturday when it's Forgeworld - they edited the WHC article but other sites that reposted have it as Friday.
Can we hope it's to quickly make an upgrade parts only bundle ?
I've got 4 unassembked warlords which I'd happily drop £40-£50 each n an upgrade but I'm not buying 4 whole new warlords then reselling my existing sprues.
I'd be surprised if they are support only, more likely they'll be higher points to limit their numbers to be representative of 30k - remember that pre Beta Garmon they field Titans in numbers never seen afterwards
The warbringer comes with a terminal, 3 weapon cards and 3 brand new sprues. From the preview, the belicosa volcano cannon will be an alternate option:
TwilightSparkles wrote: I'm wondering what caused them to change release dates for preorders to Saturday when it's Forgeworld - they edited the WHC article but other sites that reposted have it as Friday.
Can we hope it's to quickly make an upgrade parts only bundle ?
I've got 4 unassembked warlords which I'd happily drop £40-£50 each n an upgrade but I'm not buying 4 whole new warlords then reselling my existing sprues.
I'd be surprised if they are support only, more likely they'll be higher points to limit their numbers to be representative of 30k - remember that pre Beta Garmon they field Titans in numbers never seen afterwards
Might just be to tie in with the actual release, they’ve done it before for blood bowl and I think Necromunda stuff.
The rules for psi-titans say they have to be used as support titans, and use their own psychic powers instead of orders. Those powers are 'determined by the Psi-titan class', implying we'll see more than just the Warlord Sinister.
The page also mentions Corrupted Titans & Renegade/Corrupted Knight Banners.
xttz wrote: The rules for psi-titans say they have to be used as support titans, and use their own psychic powers instead of orders. Those powers are 'determined by the Psi-titan class', implying we'll see more than just the Warlord Sinister.
The page also mentions Corrupted Titans & Renegade/Corrupted Knight Banners.
A-HA! Well, that means I have no reason to rush and buy the Warlord-Sinister. I can wait until more Psi-Titans are released with (what I presume will be) the option to field pure OS forces. That's what I want. I believe the OS stuff mentions corrupted Titans, so I take it those will be support options and counterpart to the W-S for us Traitor players. Maybe as soon as the next book (Kado).
Anyhoo, a shock lance option for Warhounds -- assuming it's a melee weapon like the Cerastus version -- is awesome. That's a cherry on top of this whole release for me. Audax rules, Ursus claws, and a melee weapon. That's just awesome. Sure wish I could make out those weapon profiles...
Was looking at the Warbringer. Same number of voids as the WL, but it degrades slightly faster. Moves an inch faster than the WL, and turns like the Reaver. Same number of clades as the WL. Think the reactor is the same as the WL? It does seem to fit between the WL and Reaver, although maybe somewhat closer to the WL. Seems really solid.
BELICOSA or mori quake only? That's pretty disappointing for carapace mounts. Was really hoping for something more exciting like a plasma mortar or sonic disruptor.
The open space on top is also just big enough you could probably put a landing pad for a storm talon or archaeopter up there too, like the old gyro copter on the warmonger.
But it actually looks sinister when deployed amongst other Titans. I mean, the body shape is of course spot on. But the blank face plate and esoteric left arm weapon looks just odd enough. Like the design is at once clearly Imperial, but also bizarre.
That’s no small feat of design. To look right but also ‘not quite right’ is seriously skilled.
If I could wear any kind of hat without looking stupid, it would be doffed.
Anyhoo, a shock lance option for Warhounds -- assuming it's a melee weapon like the Cerastus version -- is awesome. That's a cherry on top of this whole release for me. Audax rules, Ursus claws, and a melee weapon. That's just awesome. Sure wish I could make out those weapon profiles...
Couldn't quite read it, but yeah two new weapons for the Hounds. Happy days!
Okay, so looking at the points cost of the Warbringer itself and assuming the weapon points are the same as the Warlord and Reaver, we are looking at an overall cost of 395pts out of the box.
If this is correct I'm very happy, as I have two 1600pt armies and a Warbringer each will bring both up to almost 2000pts. Perfect
The new Warbringer and terrain are awesome as with every release so far. Really looking forward to building a huge terrain board with this stuff.
I am wondering if it would be more practical to wait until FW inevitably releases an alternate weapon for the Warbringer and then use the spare quake cannon for a massive ground emplacement...
Commander Cain wrote: The new Warbringer and terrain are awesome as with every release so far. Really looking forward to building a huge terrain board with this stuff.
I am wondering if it would be more practical to wait until FW inevitably releases an alternate weapon for the Warbringer and then use the spare quake cannon for a massive ground emplacement...
The quake cannon mount on the back is removable, so no need to wait. What is funny is that the magnet sockets on the back to clip the ammo boxes onto the body on the full sized version have been miniaturized as well. Could maybe fit little 1mm magnets in there.
When I first ended up with six warhounds I ran out of armour and head combinations after four, so built those four each dual wielding one of the four weapon types and elected to leave the mixed armament ones unbuilt in case different cosmetic components came out.
So if there does end up being a second warhound box with ursus claws and shock lances I’ll be very happy to buy that and get up to a total of 8.
changemod wrote: When I first ended up with six warhounds I ran out of armour and head combinations after four, so built those four each dual wielding one of the four weapon types and elected to leave the mixed armament ones unbuilt in case different cosmetic components came out.
So if there does end up being a second warhound box with ursus claws and shock lances I’ll be very happy to buy that and get up to a total of 8.
I expect the claws and lances will be resin, not plastic.
changemod wrote: When I first ended up with six warhounds I ran out of armour and head combinations after four, so built those four each dual wielding one of the four weapon types and elected to leave the mixed armament ones unbuilt in case different cosmetic components came out.
So if there does end up being a second warhound box with ursus claws and shock lances I’ll be very happy to buy that and get up to a total of 8.
I expect the claws and lances will be resin, not plastic.
It would make sense, but at the same time warhounds are very limited in their armour plating at the moment. They could do with at least some more heads.
changemod wrote: When I first ended up with six warhounds I ran out of armour and head combinations after four, so built those four each dual wielding one of the four weapon types and elected to leave the mixed armament ones unbuilt in case different cosmetic components came out.
So if there does end up being a second warhound box with ursus claws and shock lances I’ll be very happy to buy that and get up to a total of 8.
I expect the claws and lances will be resin, not plastic.
Same. Fw has only limited amount plastic they can bring out
Trying to work out what weapon cards come with the Warbringer, description says it comes with three but the images show it has at least two options for the carapace weapon. So does that mean it only comes with one of the two arm weapon cards?
Tavis75 wrote: Trying to work out what weapon cards come with the Warbringer, description says it comes with three but the images show it has at least two options for the carapace weapon. So does that mean it only comes with one of the two arm weapon cards?
I guess it would come with the three cards for the weapons in the box - Quake Cannon, Volcano Cannon and Laser Blaster.
Tavis75 wrote: Trying to work out what weapon cards come with the Warbringer, description says it comes with three but the images show it has at least two options for the carapace weapon. So does that mean it only comes with one of the two arm weapon cards?
It’ll be Carapace quake cannon and arm laser blaster + arm volcano cannon
Tavis75 wrote: Trying to work out what weapon cards come with the Warbringer, description says it comes with three but the images show it has at least two options for the carapace weapon. So does that mean it only comes with one of the two arm weapon cards?
It’ll be Carapace quake cannon and arm laser blaster + arm volcano cannon
That would have been my assumption, but the images on the GW site show cards for the Warbringer Carapace Mori Quake Cannon, Warbringer Carapace Belicosa Volcano Cannon and Reaver class Laser Blaster, no card for the Reaver class volcano cannon.
That would have been my assumption, but the images on the GW site show cards for the Warbringer Carapace Mori Quake Cannon, Warbringer Carapace Belicosa Volcano Cannon and Reaver class Laser Blaster, no card for the Reaver class volcano cannon.
It'll just be a general product image we'll likely see reused on the Belicosa variant. Not all the product images are 100% accurate, like how the new command terminal pack shows 5 Warhound cards.
zedmeister wrote: Loyalist only with plenty of references to corrupted titans. Banelords, painlords, plaguelords and the like will be resin upgrades I suspect
Tavis75 wrote: Trying to work out what weapon cards come with the Warbringer, description says it comes with three but the images show it has at least two options for the carapace weapon. So does that mean it only comes with one of the two arm weapon cards?
It’ll be Carapace quake cannon and arm laser blaster + arm volcano cannon
That would have been my assumption, but the images on the GW site show cards for the Warbringer Carapace Mori Quake Cannon, Warbringer Carapace Belicosa Volcano Cannon and Reaver class Laser Blaster, no card for the Reaver class volcano cannon.
I joke, but maybe they know nobody is going to keep the stock volcano cannon.
Interestingly, the Warbringer cards include the "15+ critically disabled" result that is not dublicated in the Sinister weapons, so it is not a universal change. Might we see the first interaction with "special" hit location or just a thing to show a heavy artillery titan can blow its magazines extra hard when its gun take hits?
Spotted a new maniple I. The book. Arcus batteline maniple - 1 nemesis and 2-4 Warhounds. Warhounds act as spotters allowing the nemesis to fire without line of sight using the Warhound LoS
Canis Light Maniple is 3-5 Warhounds & exclusive to Audax. It allows a GSC-style 'blip' deployment system where titans are placed anywhere in 50% cover even outside your deployment zone. You also count as having deployed first.
Arcus is 1 Warbringer 2-4 Warhounds. As above, Warbringer can use Warhound LoS. It still has -2 to hit for firing indirectly, but blasts scatter D6 instead of D10.
Ruptura is 2 Warbringer 1-3 Reavers. One Reaver per turn can push its reactor for free to move faster, and all Reavers gain a free move action if a Warbringer kills an enemy titan.
Mandatum is 1 Warlord 2-4 Warhounds.Warhounds get +2 to command checks & get +1 to hit rolls against targets within 12” of the Warlord.
Warbringer carapace weapon looks like it is corridor arc, which is a bit of a shame. Makes it less useful than the Warlord versions, even though the Warbringer is more manoeuvrable.
Psi Titan's gun has the "Beam" characteristic. I'm guessing that means "draw a line and hit every target along it".
lord_blackfang wrote: Maniples are a bit disappointing, you'd think there would be enough for the new titan so it could combo with all the other classes.
Given the rigid nature of Collegia Titanica, I'm fine with dedicated artillery working in dedicated artillery groups. Especially so as the Shadow and Iron supplement is bringing a LOT of new stuff on the table, it is easier to keep the power levels of weird interactions near normal than just allowing willy-nilly substitutions now that we hit twenty Legio rules and a dozen or so maniples.
Crusade Legios are also a thing and allow you to substitute Warbringers in there, as does Fortidus. No biggie, all in all.
It's kind of a biggie if you're running a custom Legio and want to keep doing so.
My own specifically focuses on heavier chassis, and I wrote the fluff that way specifically so I could have Warlords and Warbringers fighting together, but so far that's going to be suboptimal. I'll still do it, because I don't min-max, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to have a cool heavy maniple to use.
Why is there no ebook release of the core rule book. This is yet another bizarre decision in a long series of weird decisions for adeptus titanicus.
At least I have to give them kudos for finally including the necessary terminals and weapon cards in the box now. But the warbringer cardboard terminal, the one that matches all the terminals you already have, is a $25 purchase per terminal (comes with 4 terminals you probably won’t need for free)
RobertDD wrote: Why is there no ebook release of the core rule book. This is yet another bizarre decision in a long series of weird decisions for adeptus titanicus.
At least I have to give them kudos for finally including the necessary terminals and weapon cards in the box now. But the warbringer cardboard terminal, the one that matches all the terminals you already have, is a $25 purchase per terminal (comes with 4 terminals you probably won’t need for free)
A player will need the ruleset components as much as the rule book itself, so having it bundled with the core book at a discount makes sense.
Do you mean it should be an ebook for the sake of travel between games? That would be useful for some players, I'm sure.
TheWaspinator wrote: As someone who hasn't tried Adeptus Titanicus yet, does the new starter look good? How close to a standard-sized army is it?
It’s a great value and a much better introduction to the game than the Grandmaster edition. You’ll get a good feel for movement and Titan management with the mix in that set. Very roughly it’s about 1200(?) points. If you later add a Warlord Titan, you’ll be around 1700 (upper range of midsized games) and have a full Axiom maniple. Super solid, balanced force.
Note that AT has three game sizes. The middle range is around 1250-1750. If you bring fewer points than your opponent, you get underdog bonuses. So it’s not a strict 2000 points or go home game the way 40K can be in some circles. Hope that helps.
The thing to remember about AT is that your choice of Maniple and Legio will provide the greatest variety. After that, it’s variety of weapons, then the Class. At least in my opinion
TheWaspinator wrote: As someone who hasn't tried Adeptus Titanicus yet, does the new starter look good? How close to a standard-sized army is it?
It is indeed very good. Price is great, you get four engines and a pair of knights to a game where most 2-3 hour games are played with 4-6 engines per side. The models you get are excellent in variety (even the Reavers are different kits with lots of weapons) and you can play two different maniples straight from the box (granted, only one of those has rules in the book that comes with the box). Rulebook has also been updated with the errata, so no need to search for that either. Reavers and Hounds are the main workhorses of the game, so this is a solid core to expand from.
Also, if just trying out, you get a feel for the game by just plopping the contents on a table and giving one of each three for both sides.
TheWaspinator wrote: As someone who hasn't tried Adeptus Titanicus yet, does the new starter look good? How close to a standard-sized army is it?
Yes, its amazing and provides - out of the box - a good army for matched play. Points wise it all comes to about 1200 points which is the norm. For comparison, the lowest entry would be 3 hounds for about 660 points.
My personal maniple is 1 Reaver, 2 hounds and 2 Cerastus Lancers which comes to 885 points, as I prefer smaller games.
As a reminder, if you bought things separately, you'd be looking at £165. Discounted then it could be as little as £72.
<small rant> Why do they continue to say that Forgeworld models are "on pre-order" if that only means that certain countries are allowed to do so, such as the UK but not Canada or the US?</rant>
I get it, they have only so much production capacity, and they have to direct it as needed, but I wish they'd simply say that up front.
schoon wrote: <small rant> Why do they continue to say that Forgeworld models are "on pre-order" if that only means that certain countries are allowed to do so, such as the UK but not Canada or the US?</rant>
I get it, they have only so much production capacity, and they have to direct it as needed, but I wish they'd simply say that up front.
There is a separate distribution centre for US & Canada with it's own stock (and I think production). Everywhere else ships from the UK which presumably has more stock available.
I'm a little worried that if new titans are now shipping with terminal & weapon cards, those could fall short and need replenishing from an external supplier. The main reason the GME box was unavailable for so long was because the packaging was supplied from China.
I had to have someone in the UK buy and send me the last round of stratagem cards. They were only sold out in the US and Canada. This, of course, would not have happened had I been able to order directly from the UK like in the old days.
It is what is. The US and Canada FW stock is very limited and prone to selling out. If the item is limited edition...you better order right away or you may be looking for friends in the UK. I love their products, but I have yet to see any real advantages of this US distribution center. It’s higher prices with much more limited stock, and a few days faster shipping time doesn’t balance those scales. It’s been very disappointing.
lord_blackfang wrote: If I already have 2 of every titan and a box of every knight type, is there any sense in getting the new starter?
Ehh, I would probably say no...unless for some reason you have to have the new softback book with the faq/eratta in it. The old book is still viable with the printed faq though. So it's not really essential despite being convenient. The new box is good value for money though, I really wish they had started the game with this boxed set instead of the GME. It probably would have had a much stronger playerbase growth and consideration. The GME was off putting and I ended up being the only dude at the shop with any AT models. Now that this new box is coming out several people are taking interest and it's a good sign for the game.
Agreed that GME was nonsense, I started last year with the Battleforce, rules box, alternate Warlord and alternate Reaver, it was about the same cost as GME and I got a full Axiom with all gun options.
Adding a Warbringer to the 3k+ points of Gryphonicus titans & weapons already on my shelf seems fairly redundant, as it's just going to push something else out. I'm seriously considering using this point to start a second Legio so I can at least try out another colour scheme, rules, and have the ability to run demo games for people interesting in starting.
As I have predicted the new "free" included terminal is a piece of paper instead of thick board. Not complaining, it's good that they found a way to cut cost and stop hiking these box over the 200$ mark
Commander Cain wrote: Just realized how much of a good deal the new boxed set is, including the battlefield assets its a $100 saving for me, not too shabby!
They're on the same sprue as the arc template and cog note, which is essential to play the game.
I just meant that some might not care for more templates and were just interested in the titans. As for me, the more little bits off terrain the better!
lord_blackfang wrote: Agreed that GME was nonsense, I started last year with the Battleforce, rules box, alternate Warlord and alternate Reaver, it was about the same cost as GME and I got a full Axiom with all gun options.
lord_blackfang wrote: If I already have 2 of every titan and a box of every knight type, is there any sense in getting the new starter?
Apparently the rule book is an updated version with the latest errata. But IMO the main question is do you want more Reavers and Warhounds?
Yes, that's really my question: Is there a point in fielding 4 Reavers or 4 Warhounds at the same time?
A proper answer: yes. I almost always field four Warhounds in two squadroned pairs in normal 1500-1750 points games, often as parts of Venator or Ferrox maniples. They give you quite a lot of tactical avenues in how to approach and react to developments during the game. Then there are two purely Warhound maniples, Lupercal and Canis (which is exclusive to Ember Wolves, mind), which are both awesome. Four Reavers is also quite easy to fit in a normal list, either in two Ferrox maniples, as a single Corsair flying circus or in other formations where they can use their relatively good durability, okay mobility and good weaponry to great effect.
Unlikely and they have said no plans. It's just cosmetic differences and doing those would take space from NEW stuff. Basically when those appear you know there's not much any new material coming...
Plastic 100% sure no. There just ain't market for expensive plastic sprue of alternative armour plates. Maybe resin once everything new different rule ideas have been exhausted.
Togusa wrote: Does anyone think that we will see Lucius pattern titans?
Well, if FW aren't doing Xenos then they'll have to scrape the barrel at some point. That said, it took a year for them to release a small upgrade sprue for the Questoris, and we still haven't seen the equally small Cerastus upgrade, so I'd say we are in for a long wait for that kind of thing.
With this snail pace, it'd be 10 years to have all the titan they want to make getting a release. With a stockpile of 1 sprue knights waiting to fill the schedule.
Not to mention once they got around doing BFG, we'd see a major halt in both AT and AI release.
The current slow pace in AT I reckon because they were busy making Tau + 2 more factions in AI.
I figure first we'll see marginally chaosified titans as upgrade packs to what we've got now. So warped armour plating, additional wriggling bits and some unique warped weapons. All built on the same core as the current titans.
Then we'll see fully warped titans with their own core body designs which are fully given into the twisted nature of the warp.
After that or alongside it we'll see some Xenos - I'd wager Eldar and Orks would be up first with Tyranids following soon after.
Tau and Necrons have very limited titan ranges so they'd likely get a lot of unique and newly designed models to fit. Dark Eldar are about the only force without any thing at all, which means they might just be "add some spikes to your Eldar" or they could even get their own unique creations as well.
Chopstick wrote: With this snail pace, it'd be 10 years to have all the titan they want to make getting a release. With a stockpile of 1 sprue knights waiting to fill the schedule.
Not to mention once they got around doing BFG, we'd see a major halt in both AT and AI release.
The current slow pace in AT I reckon because they were busy making Tau + 2 more factions in AI.
It's been discussed before, but the main reason for the gap in releases is because this stuff has a 1-2 year lead time from initial design to release. What we're seeing now are the first products commissioned after GW saw the much higher than expected sales figures in late 2018. Everything before that was in some level of development before they knew how popular the game would be. It's very risky for them to invest in lots of supporting products only to find that the core game sells like Dreadfleet on release!
Now GW know there's a solid demand, I wouldn't be surprised if we had releases like this with multiple products every 3 months from now on (e.g. May could be have a campaign book, alternate Warbringer box, plastic Chaos Knights, and a FW Corrupted Warlord with resin armour).
tneva82 wrote: And frankly they will release xenos first. Xenos brings in lot more potential customers than alternative armor plates.
Given that AT is a "Horus Heresy" game, I can see Xenos being introduced in a different game.
By the time they get round to Xenos the Imperial and Chaos ranges will have fully matured, leaving little reason for a competitive player to go for anything else. A revamped Titan Legions game, on the other hand, would allow FW, or GW, to introduce Imperials, Eldar and Orks on somewhat equal footing, while allowing Adeptus Titanicus to keep its chess-like theme with Loyalists and Traitors and the focus on the larger god-engines, while TL would be more suitable for a super-heavy/Titan style of game.
I think around August 2020 we might see a new "epic-scale" game, as we did in previous years with AT and AI...
Only thing in AT that's really HH is fluff. You can release 100% compatible supplement with new rules for xenos and it works fine. Stuff in AT is still usable even in 40k. Warlord is warlord whether it's 30k or 40k.
Adding xenos is just adding new rules for xenos titans and additional fluff. No need for different game.
xttz wrote: . It's very risky for them to invest in lots of supporting products only to find that the core game sells like Dreadfleet on release!
Dreadfleet was a totally different product and was designed and marketed as a single box release. Much like how GW remade Space Hulk in that era too. Basically it was GW wanting to make a one mould set and one production run of models and invest X and get back a return on that investment without any long term commitments or plans. I think that in itself really hurt Dreadfleet as whilst the models looked fantastic, in the end it was a one-box-wonder. What "wargamers" wanted was Man O War with multiple ships per faction and army building and fleets. What they got was one ship per faction in a single boxed set. Instead of being the kind of thing everyone at the club would buy, it was more the thing one person would buy and then share out on the game evening to play.
Plus with no future plans and GW outright saying that, it basically meant that it was a single investment more suited to the high end boardgame market than wargamers.
AT was never marketed as a one-box-sale product and I suspect if they had marketed it like that it would have failed. Or at least been really slow to sell and nothing like the sales we saw of it. When people think there's a future with a wargame they are far more likely to jump on board. If they think its going to be dead on arrival then there's less reason to get excited.
They were projects born of very different management attitudes and focuses. I suspect if GW today did Dreadfleet MK2 it would be far closer to Man O War style. With GW likely launching with a couple of races worth of ships at launch with plans for several more factions. Likely staggering it much like Necromunda with rule and model expansions in stages so that if it fails they can just stop and the game is complete at any one production stage. As opposed to releasing a comprehensive rule version (including model rules) which might run the risk that if sales fail to meet targets, it ends up a cancelled and aborted game that never got its full displayed releases.
Overread wrote: AT was never marketed as a one-box-sale product and I suspect if they had marketed it like that it would have failed. Or at least been really slow to sell and nothing like the sales we saw of it. When people think there's a future with a wargame they are far more likely to jump on board. If they think its going to be dead on arrival then there's less reason to get excited.
No. But neither would GW be wanting to commit on tons of kits for 2 years before knowing did game flop or not.
We already know from their statement AT surprised them with sales which resulted in increase of resources. But result of that is only now starting to show due to lead times. Originally support wasn't planned to be quite as intensive as it turned when it became clear it was selling faster than expected. But just because it sells more than you thought and you put in more resources doesn't mean new kits and books comes out instantly.
tneva82 wrote: Only thing in AT that's really HH is fluff. You can release 100% compatible supplement with new rules for xenos and it works fine. Stuff in AT is still usable even in 40k. Warlord is warlord whether it's 30k or 40k.
Adding xenos is just adding new rules for xenos titans and additional fluff. No need for different game.
Exactly. It's one of the powers of Titans that they basically don't change through the generations. So the titans we have no can transfer fully to the 41st millennium without any problems. Adding Xenos to the setting basically requires them to make Xenos titan models and that's about it. Someone can then write a bit of fluff and story about them. Orks and Eldar can even appear during the HH time period. I suspect even Dark Eldar could as well. The only factions that can't are Tau, Tyranids and Necrons as they don't appear until much later in the setting. Although technically Necrons ARE at least present in the galaxy, just dormant.
The only thing that would mess it up is if GW makes an Epic game set in the HH era with HH imperial units that don't translate to the 41st era.
Honestly I kinda wish they didn’t have them Horus heresy excuse: the game doesn’t even have *two* factions yet unless you count titans and knights seperately.
Would it be better to have 40k with 2 sides with same models?
It's practicality. FW can't bring in multiple full lines at once. Either way you have 1 line of titans for both sides. What does it matter is fluff for HH or 40k?
Togusa wrote: Does anyone think that we will see Lucius pattern titans?
I think we'll see the 3D-printing file market take care of that. The problem being that the current Warlord Titans wouldn't look right with Lucius-pattern plating because their legs are so short and shoulders so broad.
tneva82 wrote: Only thing in AT that's really HH is fluff. You can release 100% compatible supplement with new rules for xenos and it works fine. Stuff in AT is still usable even in 40k. Warlord is warlord whether it's 30k or 40k.
Adding xenos is just adding new rules for xenos titans and additional fluff. No need for different game.
Well, of course the fluff is the only difference but its the setting of the game nonetheless, and the product range has been designed around loyalists and traitors - the model kits are designed to accomodate both, to the point where one has a lot of left over pieces. At this stage - over a year from its initial release - I doubt AT was designed to be anything more than a game of Loyalists and Traiters.
That said, the core rule book does mention a conflict involving super heavies and interference from Eldar titans...
tneva82 wrote: And frankly they will release xenos first. Xenos brings in lot more potential customers than alternative armor plates.
Given that AT is a "Horus Heresy" game, I can see Xenos being introduced in a different game.
By the time they get round to Xenos the Imperial and Chaos ranges will have fully matured, leaving little reason for a competitive player to go for anything else. A revamped Titan Legions game, on the other hand, would allow FW, or GW, to introduce Imperials, Eldar and Orks on somewhat equal footing, while allowing Adeptus Titanicus to keep its chess-like theme with Loyalists and Traitors and the focus on the larger god-engines, while TL would be more suitable for a super-heavy/Titan style of game.
I think around August 2020 we might see a new "epic-scale" game, as we did in previous years with AT and AI...
Eldar would actually work in the HH era, as there is fluff of them being involved in both Great Crusade and HH era battles here and there.
tneva82 wrote: Only thing in AT that's really HH is fluff. You can release 100% compatible supplement with new rules for xenos and it works fine. Stuff in AT is still usable even in 40k. Warlord is warlord whether it's 30k or 40k.
Adding xenos is just adding new rules for xenos titans and additional fluff. No need for different game.
Well, of course the fluff is the only difference but its the setting of the game nonetheless, and the product range has been designed around loyalists and traitors - the model kits are designed to accomodate both, to the point where one has a lot of left over pieces. At this stage - over a year from its initial release - I doubt AT was designed to be anything more than a game of Loyalists and Traiters.
That said, the core rule book does mention a conflict involving super heavies and interference from Eldar titans...
Eeh there's nothing in at that prevents expansions elsewhere. Spare parts? What does that mattter? Same titans can fight 30k and 40k. Part of fluff is lack of new gear. Not just same classes but even literally same titans can fight both era's
It's not even unprecedent that you have same models used in 2 era's with compatible rules...
And de#igner# have never ruled out expansion for xenos in time :f sales warrant it.
My big worry with Xenos titans (and even new parts of the ATHH range) is the temptation for GW to make most or all of them into 28mm scale products too, delaying production.
It would suck if Ork gargants took much longer to arrive because someone insisted on making one available as 20kg resin monstrosity that put the Manta to shame.
Dreadfleet was a totally different product and was designed and marketed as a single box release.
That was just a top-of-the-head example of a poor selling GW product, not a comparison to AT.
At the end of the day sales forecasting (for any kind of business) is like predicting the future. There are so many different factors affecting customer decision making you can't know precisely how many of a thing you will sell until you've sold them. It's sensible to err on the side of caution, especially for brand new product ranges.
I don't think anyone should be holding their breath waiting for xenos Titans in AT, though. They're clearly going to exhaust the HH material first. And for that setting, they have many more Titan chassis on the way, including more base Titans, corrupted Titan options/chassis, presumably more Ordo Sinister Titans, etc. We'll probably also see more terrain.
And that will be on a SG cycle, not a core game release rate. So maybe in 2023?
gorgon wrote: I don't think anyone should be holding their breath waiting for xenos Titans in AT, though. They're clearly going to exhaust the HH material first. And for that setting, they have many more Titan chassis on the way, including more base Titans, corrupted Titan options/chassis, presumably more Ordo Sinister Titans, etc. We'll probably also see more terrain.
And that will be on a SG cycle, not a core game release rate. So maybe in 2023?
Why would you want to come up with a bunch of obscure niche titans before even starting on a second faction that will already be well behind in predesigned titans even before you start coming up with new stuff?
gorgon wrote: I don't think anyone should be holding their breath waiting for xenos Titans in AT, though. They're clearly going to exhaust the HH material first. And for that setting, they have many more Titan chassis on the way, including more base Titans, corrupted Titan options/chassis, presumably more Ordo Sinister Titans, etc. We'll probably also see more terrain.
And that will be on a SG cycle, not a core game release rate. So maybe in 2023?
Why would you want to come up with a bunch of obscure niche titans before even starting on a second faction that will already be well behind in predesigned titans even before you start coming up with new stuff?
Because it's a Horus Heresy game. It says so right on the cover, and the game is being built up through supplements centered around battles of loyalists vs. traitors during that conflict.
Xenos Titans will probably happen eventually, but that'll probably be when they have the resources to do *that* right, and that doesn't seem to be now. Just look at the current pace of releases. It took a year to release all the basic weapon options for the original three classes. It's very unlikely that they'll interrupt that (needed) support for current players to build out entirely new factions in the near future.
Note that xenos factions won't be just one titan strong. Doing xenos right will likely require multiple scales of Titan during the launch phase, like with the original AT launch. It'd be like a relaunch of the game, and that may make sense at a certain point. But soon? Just doesn't make any sense.
gorgon wrote: I don't think anyone should be holding their breath waiting for xenos Titans in AT, though. They're clearly going to exhaust the HH material first. And for that setting, they have many more Titan chassis on the way, including more base Titans, corrupted Titan options/chassis, presumably more Ordo Sinister Titans, etc. We'll probably also see more terrain.
And that will be on a SG cycle, not a core game release rate. So maybe in 2023?
Why would you want to come up with a bunch of obscure niche titans before even starting on a second faction that will already be well behind in predesigned titans even before you start coming up with new stuff?
Because it's a Horus Heresy game. It says so right on the cover, and the game is being built up through supplements centered around battles of loyalists vs. traitors during that conflict.
Xenos Titans will probably happen eventually, but that'll probably be when they have the resources to do *that* right, and that doesn't seem to be now. Just look at the current pace of releases. It took a year to release all the basic weapon options for the original three classes. It's very unlikely that they'll interrupt that (needed) support for current players to build out entirely new factions in the near future.
Note that xenos factions won't be just one titan strong. Doing xenos right will likely require multiple scales of Titan during the launch phase, like with the original AT launch. It'd be like a relaunch of the game, and that may make sense at a certain point. But soon? Just doesn't make any sense.
Everyone on the planet knows it’s purely heresy because the suits didn’t feel like funding them to have even the cosmetic touches to have chaos titans as a faction.
And as I said in the very post you’re replying to, it’ll take more effort to catch even Eldar up if they stall on it.
gorgon wrote: I don't think anyone should be holding their breath waiting for xenos Titans in AT, though. They're clearly going to exhaust the HH material first. And for that setting, they have many more Titan chassis on the way, including more base Titans, corrupted Titan options/chassis, presumably more Ordo Sinister Titans, etc. We'll probably also see more terrain.
And that will be on a SG cycle, not a core game release rate. So maybe in 2023?
Why would you want to come up with a bunch of obscure niche titans before even starting on a second faction that will already be well behind in predesigned titans even before you start coming up with new stuff?
Because it's a Horus Heresy game. It says so right on the cover, and the game is being built up through supplements centered around battles of loyalists vs. traitors during that conflict.
Xenos Titans will probably happen eventually, but that'll probably be when they have the resources to do *that* right, and that doesn't seem to be now. Just look at the current pace of releases. It took a year to release all the basic weapon options for the original three classes. It's very unlikely that they'll interrupt that (needed) support for current players to build out entirely new factions in the near future.
Note that xenos factions won't be just one titan strong. Doing xenos right will likely require multiple scales of Titan during the launch phase, like with the original AT launch. It'd be like a relaunch of the game, and that may make sense at a certain point. But soon? Just doesn't make any sense.
Everyone on the planet knows it’s purely heresy because the suits didn’t feel like funding them to have even the cosmetic touches to have chaos titans as a faction.
And as I said in the very post you’re replying to, it’ll take more effort to catch even Eldar up if they stall on it.
I definitely don't know that. And the point about Eldar is moot.
Do you have any particular reason for playing dumb or is it just contrarianism? If they had an actual artistic reason for it being in the heresy setting as a deliberate creative choice there would be visual differences between imperial and chaos titans more sophisticated than eye logos on the shoulderpads.
Do you have any particular reason for playing dumb or is it just contrarianism? If they had an actual artistic reason for it being in the heresy setting as a deliberate creative choice there would be visual differences between imperial and chaos titans more sophisticated than eye logos on the shoulderpads.
I suppose I'm just not as omniscient as yourself Sir. My sincere apologies.
gorgon wrote: I don't think anyone should be holding their breath waiting for xenos Titans in AT, though. They're clearly going to exhaust the HH material first. And for that setting, they have many more Titan chassis on the way, including more base Titans, corrupted Titan options/chassis, presumably more Ordo Sinister Titans, etc. We'll probably also see more terrain.
And that will be on a SG cycle, not a core game release rate. So maybe in 2023?
Why would you want to come up with a bunch of obscure niche titans before even starting on a second faction that will already be well behind in predesigned titans even before you start coming up with new stuff?
Because it's a Horus Heresy game. It says so right on the cover, and the game is being built up through supplements centered around battles of loyalists vs. traitors during that conflict.
Xenos Titans will probably happen eventually, but that'll probably be when they have the resources to do *that* right, and that doesn't seem to be now. Just look at the current pace of releases. It took a year to release all the basic weapon options for the original three classes. It's very unlikely that they'll interrupt that (needed) support for current players to build out entirely new factions in the near future.
Note that xenos factions won't be just one titan strong. Doing xenos right will likely require multiple scales of Titan during the launch phase, like with the original AT launch. It'd be like a relaunch of the game, and that may make sense at a certain point. But soon? Just doesn't make any sense.
Mind you previous release pace isn't true account. It's this and next year showing more of. All those weapons were commissioned and worked before AT came on sale and thus needed to be spread to have some new stuff coming rather than have all out at once. Once AT proved to be seller they hired more staff to work on specifically AT but it has taken over a year from green light to new releases. You can hire new guys to produce new stuff but it won't affect release schedule already set up.
gorgon wrote: I don't think anyone should be holding their breath waiting for xenos Titans in AT, though. They're clearly going to exhaust the HH material first. And for that setting, they have many more Titan chassis on the way, including more base Titans, corrupted Titan options/chassis, presumably more Ordo Sinister Titans, etc. We'll probably also see more terrain.
And that will be on a SG cycle, not a core game release rate. So maybe in 2023?
Why would you want to come up with a bunch of obscure niche titans before even starting on a second faction that will already be well behind in predesigned titans even before you start coming up with new stuff?
Because it's a Horus Heresy game. It says so right on the cover, and the game is being built up through supplements centered around battles of loyalists vs. traitors during that conflict.
Xenos Titans will probably happen eventually, but that'll probably be when they have the resources to do *that* right, and that doesn't seem to be now. Just look at the current pace of releases. It took a year to release all the basic weapon options for the original three classes. It's very unlikely that they'll interrupt that (needed) support for current players to build out entirely new factions in the near future.
Note that xenos factions won't be just one titan strong. Doing xenos right will likely require multiple scales of Titan during the launch phase, like with the original AT launch. It'd be like a relaunch of the game, and that may make sense at a certain point. But soon? Just doesn't make any sense.
Everyone on the planet knows it’s purely heresy because the suits didn’t feel like funding them to have even the cosmetic touches to have chaos titans as a faction.
And as I said in the very post you’re replying to, it’ll take more effort to catch even Eldar up if they stall on it.
AT wasn't intended to have plastic Titans until the interest seemed far stronger than expected. That's why it was so delayed. So those dastardly 'suits' actually greenlit the plastic sprues that we got. Regardless, yes, it's a specialist game with a limited scope.
The fault must be mine for not understanding why someone is upset that a game is exactly what it says it is on the box.
Note that xenos factions won't be just one titan strong. Doing xenos right will likely require multiple scales of Titan during the launch phase, like with the original AT launch. It'd be like a relaunch of the game, and that may make sense at a certain point. But soon? Just doesn't make any sense.
Mind you previous release pace isn't true account. It's this and next year showing more of. All those weapons were commissioned and worked before AT came on sale and thus needed to be spread to have some new stuff coming rather than have all out at once. Once AT proved to be seller they hired more staff to work on specifically AT but it has taken over a year from green light to new releases. You can hire new guys to produce new stuff but it won't affect release schedule already set up.
That's fair, but we'll probably see, what, one more new Titan class this year? Not counting corrupted Titans, which seem to be coming with the Kado book. They aren't about to wrap up the Horus Heresy in the next 12 months.
tneva82 wrote: Only thing in AT that's really HH is fluff. You can release 100% compatible supplement with new rules for xenos and it works fine. Stuff in AT is still usable even in 40k. Warlord is warlord whether it's 30k or 40k.
Adding xenos is just adding new rules for xenos titans and additional fluff. No need for different game.
Well, of course the fluff is the only difference but its the setting of the game nonetheless, and the product range has been designed around loyalists and traitors - the model kits are designed to accomodate both, to the point where one has a lot of left over pieces. At this stage - over a year from its initial release - I doubt AT was designed to be anything more than a game of Loyalists and Traiters.
That said, the core rule book does mention a conflict involving super heavies and interference from Eldar titans...
Eeh there's nothing in at that prevents expansions elsewhere. Spare parts? What does that mattter? Same titans can fight 30k and 40k. Part of fluff is lack of new gear. Not just same classes but even literally same titans can fight both era's
It's not even unprecedent that you have same models used in 2 era's with compatible rules...
And de#igner# have never ruled out expansion for xenos in time :f sales warrant it.
You've lost me. I've not suggested that there is anything "preventing" FW from adding xenos, nor disputing that Imperial titans can't fight in 40K.
What I am saying is that Forgeworld may have designed Adeptus Titanicus to only gauge interest in epic-scale games and to cater for the "Titan owners club" who are mostly Imperial & Chaos titan enthusiasts. Being able to squeeze two factions out of one kit might be how they intend to keep the game managable, not only for kits but also rules.
And it doesn't matter that there are spare parts in a kit, merely emphasising the effort they are taking to produce two factions out of one kit.
Its not only xenos that players are asking for but also super heavies and even infantry. Not only may the writers of the story start to get headaches, but also the game designers. Including just the Knights has had mixed reception where even the design team felt divided on their function in the game. Also some xenos factions don't field enough heavy weaponary nor armour to compete at the titan level.
And as you say - supplements would be required to detail how xenos armies are fielded. The core rule book comes with rules for fielding imperial maniples and at least includes the Knights as support, so starting out one either takes up an imperial titan maniple with optional knight support, or has to purchase another book in addition to their models.
Like predicting a second titanicus-scale game in 2019(even suggesting an air combat game), and that the next titan would be the Warbringer, I'm starting to get the gut feeling that a new game would be the right way for xenos and super heavies to make their debut.
tneva82 wrote: And frankly they will release xenos first. Xenos brings in lot more potential customers than alternative armor plates.
I am hoping the game stays in the Heresy. I don't really want to see Xenos titans.
However, to be fair to everyone, I hope at the very least they keep a healthy rules set for HH games so that if Xenos titans come out, I can play against other Imperial/Chaos instead.
tneva82 wrote: And frankly they will release xenos first. Xenos brings in lot more potential customers than alternative armor plates.
I am hoping the game stays in the Heresy. I don't really want to see Xenos titans.
However, to be fair to everyone, I hope at the very least they keep a healthy rules set for HH games so that if Xenos titans come out, I can play against other Imperial/Chaos instead.
All that draining nonsense aside, I would jump for joy if it happened. Gargants are funny as hell and Wraithknights and Phantoms are beautiful models.
tneva82 wrote: And frankly they will release xenos first. Xenos brings in lot more potential customers than alternative armor plates.
I am hoping the game stays in the Heresy. I don't really want to see Xenos titans.
However, to be fair to everyone, I hope at the very least they keep a healthy rules set for HH games so that if Xenos titans come out, I can play against other Imperial/Chaos instead.
All that draining nonsense aside, I would jump for joy if it happened. Gargants are funny as hell and Wraithknights and Phantoms are beautiful models.
I'm not opposed to it happening. I just see it as something done in the context of a new setting after they feel like the HH is in a good place. The Beast Arises setting seems obvious...?
Edit: And it's a shame that we're discussing what the game isn't when there's so much good stuff coming with this release, with more cool stuff teased to be coming with future books.
Edit: And it's a shame that we're discussing what the game isn't when there's so much good stuff coming with this release, with more cool stuff teased to be coming with future books.
Oh hush you, with your swanky Audax and Ursus claws!
At this point I'd be happy if they'd just release the Cerastus upgrade.
tneva82 wrote: And frankly they will release xenos first. Xenos brings in lot more potential customers than alternative armor plates.
I am hoping the game stays in the Heresy. I don't really want to see Xenos titans.
However, to be fair to everyone, I hope at the very least they keep a healthy rules set for HH games so that if Xenos titans come out, I can play against other Imperial/Chaos instead.
All that draining nonsense aside, I would jump for joy if it happened. Gargants are funny as hell and Wraithknights and Phantoms are beautiful models.
My fear with regards to Xenos titans is that they will destabilize the game. Our local group all is in agreement that AT is the most balanced and fair game GW has ever produced.
tneva82 wrote: And frankly they will release xenos first. Xenos brings in lot more potential customers than alternative armor plates.
I am hoping the game stays in the Heresy. I don't really want to see Xenos titans.
However, to be fair to everyone, I hope at the very least they keep a healthy rules set for HH games so that if Xenos titans come out, I can play against other Imperial/Chaos instead.
All that draining nonsense aside, I would jump for joy if it happened. Gargants are funny as hell and Wraithknights and Phantoms are beautiful models.
My fear with regards to Xenos titans is that they will destabilize the game. Our local group all is in agreement that AT is the most balanced and fair game GW has ever produced.
Chess style mirror-matches are easier to balance, yes. But generally people want more out of wargames.
It'd be a shame to toss out years of work on the setting, models and background because its easier not to do Xenos.
People are worried enough about that idea in 40k without setting a precedent.
A lot of the design choice questions have been answered in the Warhammer TV interviews. I don't currently have Twitch Prime so I can't go back and re-watch, but off the top of my head the two more important points were: -No tanks or infantry for a long time. The focus is on walkers. -30k was 'chosen' as there's an infinite number of Titan Legions around (but only 18 Marine Legions), as oppose to 40k where only a handful have survived (but there's infinite Marine Chapters).
I feel like part of why this game works is that it does one thing and does it well. Which is titan vs titan combat. Once you start throwing in flyers, tanks, infantry, god knows what else. It will start to suffer from all the same issues 40k/apocalypse has. Just let Adeptus Titanicus be what it is. I do see the appeal of Eldar titans and stuff. But now that the original rules designer is no longer with the company I worry about future rules installments. A lot of what we are seeing released was all written some time ago.
schoon wrote: As fascinating as the HH vs. Xenos design discussion is, it's hardly news or rumors...
Yeah, I got carried away again. My bad.
So looking ahead, there is the Cerastus upgrades and Rapier titans we know about. Sadly there is no HH weekender this year so I guess we'll know about them as they are released.
Edit: And it's a shame that we're discussing what the game isn't when there's so much good stuff coming with this release, with more cool stuff teased to be coming with future books.
Oh hush you, with your swanky Audax and Ursus claws!
At this point I'd be happy if they'd just release the Cerastus upgrade.
This book is definitely giving me a lot of new toys to play with. The Canis maniple is very cool...it's kinda/sorta Genestealer Cult ambush for AT! What could be more up my alley?!?
Although the Lupercal maniple is still really good, and -- depending on the exact rules for the Ursus Claws -- *could* be the better choice if you want to go Titan topplin'. Squadron shenanigans plus Lupercal coordinated strikes are no joke. It depends on whether the UC roll versus scale is still considered an Armor roll and benefits from those modifiers or not. I'm guessing not, but we'll see. Just a few more days now...
gorgon wrote: I don't think anyone should be holding their breath waiting for xenos Titans in AT, though. They're clearly going to exhaust the HH material first. And for that setting, they have many more Titan chassis on the way, including more base Titans, corrupted Titan options/chassis, presumably more Ordo Sinister Titans, etc. We'll probably also see more terrain.
And that will be on a SG cycle, not a core game release rate. So maybe in 2023?
Why would you want to come up with a bunch of obscure niche titans before even starting on a second faction that will already be well behind in predesigned titans even before you start coming up with new stuff?
Because it's a Horus Heresy game. It says so right on the cover, and the game is being built up through supplements centered around battles of loyalists vs. traitors during that conflict.
Xenos Titans will probably happen eventually, but that'll probably be when they have the resources to do *that* right, and that doesn't seem to be now. Just look at the current pace of releases. It took a year to release all the basic weapon options for the original three classes. It's very unlikely that they'll interrupt that (needed) support for current players to build out entirely new factions in the near future.
Note that xenos factions won't be just one titan strong. Doing xenos right will likely require multiple scales of Titan during the launch phase, like with the original AT launch. It'd be like a relaunch of the game, and that may make sense at a certain point. But soon? Just doesn't make any sense.
Everyone on the planet knows it’s purely heresy because the suits didn’t feel like funding them to have even the cosmetic touches to have chaos titans as a faction.
And as I said in the very post you’re replying to, it’ll take more effort to catch even Eldar up if they stall on it.
I definitely don't know that. And the point about Eldar is moot.
AT was a big gamble for GW - don't forget 6mm games typically don't sell well and outside of historical games they sell even worse - most of the scifi and fantasy 6mm-15mm companies are one or two people with a shed as a side business selling models. There's a tiny few making a business (more since KS) but its still a niche.
Plus the base cost for a titan was £65 for one model. That's a lot of money for one model. Now you might say "but GW has knights codex" however the knights were built off the back of steadily increasing sales from main armies that used the same models as units rather than straight out the box being knights that could only be used in the knights game.
AT was going to launch with the most expensive single model to start; the most expensive single starter box and in a scale that historically hasn't been that strong for a very long time. A lot of risks. I think that's why they got away with more things like magnet slots in the design; I think its why they were smarter with the moulds and sprue design to split them up into components that allowed for efficient expansion and diversity whilst reducing costs for gamers and GW itself.
At was a gamble for GW that paid off in a big way. Considering its solid sales with just Imperial Titans you can bet that GW is now looking at additional resources to flesh it out to support more chaos and such. I don't think they'll want to gamble further keeping it stuck to purely mirror-armies opposing each other forever. Such a move can stall a games popularity and stifle its growth.
Remember when Xenos come along you'll get increased Imperial sales too. From those who come into the game starting Xenos who move sideways to Imperial armies; from those who want to play a more diverse game than just mirror armies opposing each other and from players now expanding their army to deal with the "xenos threat" with renewed interest. Perhaps even buying new models to build into different configurations (even with magnets many will still glue the arms in) to deal with a new type of opponent that plays differently.
Thargrim wrote: I feel like part of why this game works is that it does one thing and does it well. Which is titan vs titan combat. Once you start throwing in flyers, tanks, infantry, god knows what else. It will start to suffer from all the same issues 40k/apocalypse has. Just let Adeptus Titanicus be what it is. I do see the appeal of Eldar titans and stuff. But now that the original rules designer is no longer with the company I worry about future rules installments. A lot of what we are seeing released was all written some time ago.
Put all of the ground troops, flyers and tanks in a stand alone boxed game, which has compatibility with AT. Maybe call it something like "Space Marine"?
Everyone on the planet knows it’s purely heresy because the suits didn’t feel like funding them to have even the cosmetic touches to have chaos titans as a faction.
Yeah I found it really confusing the last time I put titans on a table, they all held hands & refused to shoot each other because the game only has one faction
Everyone on the planet knows it’s purely heresy because the suits didn’t feel like funding them to have even the cosmetic touches to have chaos titans as a faction.
Yeah I found it really confusing the last time I put titans on a table, they all held hands & refused to shoot each other because the game only has one faction
I also found this when I played an American Civil War game.
However, I wasn't being flippant. I read the game, saw Horus Heresy branding and thought "okay, its a civil war game. Great, I like civil war games." Didn't know I needed to display radical differences between the opposing titans. Just a different uniform.
Thargrim wrote: I feel like part of why this game works is that it does one thing and does it well. Which is titan vs titan combat. Once you start throwing in flyers, tanks, infantry, god knows what else. It will start to suffer from all the same issues 40k/apocalypse has. Just let Adeptus Titanicus be what it is. I do see the appeal of Eldar titans and stuff. But now that the original rules designer is no longer with the company I worry about future rules installments. A lot of what we are seeing released was all written some time ago.
Put all of the ground troops, flyers and tanks in a stand alone boxed game, which has compatibility with AT. Maybe call it something like "Space Marine"?
How about they all appear in a game that's actually designed for that scale of combat, instead of being shoe-horned into a crunchier system for Titan combat intended to be played with 10-12 units on the board? That sure would be Epic. And something that already exists that you can go play now.
Thargrim wrote: I feel like part of why this game works is that it does one thing and does it well. Which is titan vs titan combat. Once you start throwing in flyers, tanks, infantry, god knows what else. It will start to suffer from all the same issues 40k/apocalypse has. Just let Adeptus Titanicus be what it is. I do see the appeal of Eldar titans and stuff. But now that the original rules designer is no longer with the company I worry about future rules installments. A lot of what we are seeing released was all written some time ago.
Put all of the ground troops, flyers and tanks in a stand alone boxed game, which has compatibility with AT. Maybe call it something like "Space Marine"?
How about they all appear in a game that's actually designed for that scale of combat, instead of being shoe-horned into a crunchier system for Titan combat intended to be played with 10-12 units on the board? That sure would be Epic. And something that already exists that you can go play now.
Thargrim wrote: I feel like part of why this game works is that it does one thing and does it well. Which is titan vs titan combat. Once you start throwing in flyers, tanks, infantry, god knows what else. It will start to suffer from all the same issues 40k/apocalypse has. Just let Adeptus Titanicus be what it is. I do see the appeal of Eldar titans and stuff. But now that the original rules designer is no longer with the company I worry about future rules installments. A lot of what we are seeing released was all written some time ago.
Put all of the ground troops, flyers and tanks in a stand alone boxed game, which has compatibility with AT. Maybe call it something like "Space Marine"?
How about they all appear in a game that's actually designed for that scale of combat, instead of being shoe-horned into a crunchier system for Titan combat intended to be played with 10-12 units on the board? That sure would be Epic. And something that already exists that you can go play now.
Anyway, looks like the Warlord-Sinister is temporarily out of stock again...at least in the US. They're going to sell truckloads of those when all is said and done. At $132 (I was very, very wrong about the cost), those things are priced to sell.
During the early previews of the game, James Hewitt did say that the rules were written to be able to expand into Epic. I can sort of see that. I can imagine, for example, a Land Radier detachment. 3-6 land raiders with Las Cannons. Similar in terms of operation and rules as a Knight Banner. Whether they do that or not is another question.
There are already macrobatteries and apoc launcher emplacements. Baneblades and shadowswords would be effectively mobile turrets. Heavier guns than knights, but no ion shields or melee ability.
zedmeister wrote: During the early previews of the game, James Hewitt did say that the rules were written to be able to expand into Epic. I can sort of see that. I can imagine, for example, a Land Radier detachment. 3-6 land raiders with Las Cannons. Similar in terms of operation and rules as a Knight Banner. Whether they do that or not is another question.
Whilst your quote is correct (I was there when we first heard about it), I’m not especially keen on that idea.
AT is about Titans, and their inherent resource management. The game plays more akin to a Naval Game than Ground War, due to limited manoeuvres etc.
Epic should be about colossal armies during it out. Carnage on a mahoosive scale that not even Apocalypse can scratch. That to me requires simplified rules for Titans, as otherwise the risk is we end up effectively playing two games at once.
Whilst Epic Space Marine remains my favourite, I do think Epic Armageddon was a good update, tarnished by the god awful wrong step that was Epic 40,000. All I’d add back is the army selection method from ESM. Company Card, up to five support cards, single Special Card. Yes it’s book keeping, but it’s a really sweet system!
See, the company cards were, typically, kind of inflexible. Unless it’s a Tactical Company, they tend to do just One Thing in terms of role. So your choice of support and special card were important. If like me you favoured the Objective Game over sheer destruction, I’d look at essentially assembling sub-armies. And it looked really cool.
Further adaptation is of course possible, such as welding the chosen cards into a single force. But I’m OT quite enough already, so shall cease my mindless prattling!
lord_blackfang wrote: I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.
zedmeister wrote: During the early previews of the game, James Hewitt did say that the rules were written to be able to expand into Epic. I can sort of see that. I can imagine, for example, a Land Radier detachment. 3-6 land raiders with Las Cannons. Similar in terms of operation and rules as a Knight Banner. Whether they do that or not is another question.
Whilst your quote is correct (I was there when we first heard about it), I’m not especially keen on that idea.
AT is about Titans, and their inherent resource management. The game plays more akin to a Naval Game than Ground War, due to limited manoeuvres etc.
Epic should be about colossal armies during it out. Carnage on a mahoosive scale that not even Apocalypse can scratch. That to me requires simplified rules for Titans, as otherwise the risk is we end up effectively playing two games at once.
Whilst Epic Space Marine remains my favourite, I do think Epic Armageddon was a good update, tarnished by the god awful wrong step that was Epic 40,000. All I’d add back is the army selection method from ESM. Company Card, up to five support cards, single Special Card. Yes it’s book keeping, but it’s a really sweet system!
See, the company cards were, typically, kind of inflexible. Unless it’s a Tactical Company, they tend to do just One Thing in terms of role. So your choice of support and special card were important. If like me you favoured the Objective Game over sheer destruction, I’d look at essentially assembling sub-armies. And it looked really cool.
Further adaptation is of course possible, such as welding the chosen cards into a single force. But I’m OT quite enough already, so shall cease my mindless prattling!
There's no reason tanks/epic scale units cannot be bought into it, but it should be capped and mainly used for scenario purposes.
a maniple(s) have been sent to engage the outer defences of a hive that is protected by other titans/knights but also happens to have a guard regiment, a small SH company (baneblades and variants) and maybe a space marine company as part of the defences.
Not the main component of the force by any means but they're there to add flavour and flexibility. Upto 25% can be spent on none AT or Knight units. Some specific scenarios allow for more....
lord_blackfang wrote: I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.
We managed in the 90s
In the 90's Space Marine was a separate rules system to AT, with significantly streamlined rules for titans (at least 2nd edition was, can't remember what the situation was with the first edition, but I have the feeling that also had different, simpler, rules for titans than those in AT, but I could be misremembering).
lord_blackfang wrote: I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.
We managed in the 90s
In the 90's Space Marine was a separate rules system to AT, with significantly streamlined rules for titans (at least 2nd edition was, can't remember what the situation was with the first edition, but I have the feeling that also had different, simpler, rules for titans than those in AT, but I could be misremembering).
2nd edition wasn't. It was a single system. I think you're thinking of 1st edition with Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine with the original Codex Titanicus acting as a bridge between the two systems.
lord_blackfang wrote: I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.
We managed in the 90s
In the 90's Space Marine was a separate rules system to AT, with significantly streamlined rules for titans (at least 2nd edition was, can't remember what the situation was with the first edition, but I have the feeling that also had different, simpler, rules for titans than those in AT, but I could be misremembering).
2nd edition wasn't. It was a single system. I think you're thinking of 1st edition with Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine with the original Codex Titanicus acting as a bridge between the two systems.
1st edition Space Marine was a compatible system that shared the same turn structure as AT, but could be played independently. There was a couple of pages of rules that detailed how the two games interacted but otherwise they could be considered distinct games. AT continued to recieve new content that did not require players to use Space Marine, such as Chaos titans.
2nd edition Space Marine streamlined the Titan-specific rules so everything was in the same rulebook, effectively ending AT as a game in it's own right. From that point everything was Epic.
lord_blackfang wrote: I would love Epic to come back but it would absolutely needs its own ruleset with significantly streamlined Titans, not something you bolt onto AT.
We managed in the 90s
In the 90's Space Marine was a separate rules system to AT, with significantly streamlined rules for titans (at least 2nd edition was, can't remember what the situation was with the first edition, but I have the feeling that also had different, simpler, rules for titans than those in AT, but I could be misremembering).
2nd edition wasn't. It was a single system. I think you're thinking of 1st edition with Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine with the original Codex Titanicus acting as a bridge between the two systems.
That's kind of what I meant, second edition was about the armies, there were rules for using Titans but it was a completely separate system to AT and considerably simplified over AT, really just designed for adding a titan or two to an epic army, not about playing Titan vs Titan games. Was no longer playing by the time Titan Legions came out, so don't know if that added back in rules more suited for Titan vs Titan games.
That's kind of what I meant, second edition was about the armies, there were rules for using Titans but it was a completely separate system to AT and considerably simplified over AT, really just designed for adding a titan or two to an epic army, not about playing Titan vs Titan games. Was no longer playing by the time Titan Legions came out, so don't know if that added back in rules more suited for Titan vs Titan games.
Basically the Imperator and Mega-gargant got the terminal cards / counters for detailed resource management, and other titans remained largely the same. There were also a few optional campaign rules for things like titan crew experience & skills.
Titan Legions wasn't really intended for solely Titan vs Titan games, although technically nothing was stopping you.
On a slightly different note, one slight disappointment with the Warbringer, after studying the sprues it doesn't look like it includes the gunnery spotter and servitor that stand on the carapace, was hoping we might get our first full AT scale humans after the grot bombers in AI.
Oh, and no alternative head, plus the head is on the main body sprue, so even if we ever got a replacement armour sprue it would have the same head. Maybe we'll get some resin ones from FW one day.
That's kind of what I meant, second edition was about the armies, there were rules for using Titans but it was a completely separate system to AT and considerably simplified over AT, really just designed for adding a titan or two to an epic army, not about playing Titan vs Titan games. Was no longer playing by the time Titan Legions came out, so don't know if that added back in rules more suited for Titan vs Titan games.
Basically the Imperator and Mega-gargant got the terminal cards / counters for detailed resource management, and other titans remained largely the same. There were also a few optional campaign rules for things like titan crew experience & skills.
Titan Legions wasn't really intended for solely Titan vs Titan games, although technically nothing was stopping you.
The Imperator and Mega-Gargant were sort of the tipping point where it jumped the shark IMO, when they started becoming practically one model armies in and of themselves. Either they deleted the enemy army, or they went down in flames and you were crippled because you had invested all your points in that one model. The Imperator was a bigger issue than the Mega-Gargant, since the Mega-Gargant could be worn down more easily and its firepower degraded more quickly. The games where I saw an Imperator get fielded, the game turned into a race to see if the opponent could penetrate its 12 regenerating void shields and hit those few critical spots that could result in an instant Titan kill (leg, head, mind impulse unit, reactor, plasma coupling). I didn't see much degradation of the Imperator's firepower since I never saw anyone intentionally targeting the weapons or non-critical locations.
When the survival or destruction of one model dominates and determines the game, overshadowing other objectives, then there is a problem.
The lack of additional heads is a real missed opportunity – it's such an important part of giving your Titans some personality and visual identity.
Apart from anything else, it'd be a great retro nod to the huge range there used to be.
I really hope we'll see variant heads as a Forge World release soon. In particular, I really want an update of the old alternative Reaver head, so I can recreate Mercato Stipent, an old favourite Titan of mine:
Well, looks like the new Ignatum and Astorum sheets have already sold out online! They burnt through their stock rather rapidly. Looks like Legio Vulpa has also sold out...
Alternate heads could be put out as an upgrade pack with multiple ones, if they'd give rules for small upgrades in an upcoming expansion book. A list of generic small upgrades beside the legio specific ones would be fun any way, S&I has some in the campaign section IIRC
Saw the Legio Audax rules they shared on Warhammer TV. Have a lot of thoughts about these, but I'll just leave them here for now.
Wolves Among Prey: Can squadron up to five Audax Titans, and can squadron up even if Titans are in another maniple or a reinforcement Titan.
Stalk Unseen: -2 to hit if in 25% cover (instead of -1) in the first round
Reinforced Plating -- small points cost - armor rolls are -1 against it
Audax Ursus Claws are S4 instead of S3
Princeps traits:
1) Stalk Unseen works in round 1 and 2
2) Princeps can reroll failed armor rolls against critically damaged locations
3) Reroll command checks of 1 for Audax Titans within 3" of Princeps
Canis Light Maniple (3 WH mandatory, 2 WH optional, Legio Audax only):
- At start of deployment, place markers equal to the number of Titans in the maniple anywhere on the battlefield more than 6" from enemy deployment zone.
- After both players finish normal deployment, Audax player can place Warhounds from this maniple within 3" of a marker IF they are at least 50% obscured from any enemy unit.
- If a Warhound can't be placed that way, it deploys normally instead.
gorgon wrote: Yeah, you’re right. Let’s shut down any attempt at actual talk about the contents and get back to discussing how AT should really be Epic.
I didn't realise that Audax got a strength increase along with the reinforced plating...interesting.
In another way I'm a bit disappointed that Shadow & Iron hasn't introduced the maniple - or was it a legio? - where we can take scout titans, and not necessarily the Hound. It was mentioned waaaay back.
Yeah it’s interesting how they’re handling the maniples. You’d think that they would open maniples up to scales instead of particular Titan types, but so far they seem committed to the type-specific approach.
Although having the actual rules and not summaries from YouTubers means you can find out that, for instance, Wolves Among Prey references ‘Titans’ and not Warhounds. So the door is open to squadroning with Rapiers from Rapier-containing maniples even if the Canis and Lupercal maniples remain WHs only.
I didn't realise that Audax got a strength increase along with the reinforced plating...interesting.
In another way I'm a bit disappointed that Shadow & Iron hasn't introduced the maniple - or was it a legio? - where we can take scout titans, and not necessarily the Hound. It was mentioned waaaay back.
Is that not Audax? There just isn’t any other scout titans out yet.
Having seen an unboxing, my question about the weapons cards for the Warbringer have been answered, and it does come with what I thought. Two cards for the carapace weapon (Quake and Belicosa Volcano cannons) and one arm weapon card, though as the arm weapon cards are the Reaver weapons then there are cards available already (the Warbringer card even still calls the arm weapon a Reaver arm weapon).
However, one follow on from that is it suggests to me that they aren't planning a second plastic kit for the Warbringer with the Volcano cannon, otherwise it would have seemed to make more sense to ship this one with the 3 cards for the weapons it actually has and then have 3 different cards in the second version that also match the supplied weapons. So seems the carapace volcano cannon will be resin.
Tavis75 wrote: Having seen an unboxing, my question about the weapons cards for the Warbringer have been answered, and it does come with what I thought. Two cards for the carapace weapon (Quake and Belicosa Volcano cannons) and one arm weapon card, though as the arm weapon cards are the Reaver weapons then there are cards available already (the Warbringer card even still calls the arm weapon a Reaver arm weapon).
However, one follow on from that is it suggests to me that they aren't planning a second plastic kit for the Warbringer with the Volcano cannon, otherwise it would have seemed to make more sense to ship this one with the 3 cards for the weapons it actually has and then have 3 different cards in the second version that also match the supplied weapons. So seems the carapace volcano cannon will be resin.
I'd take it that they might be planning to release the volcano sprue on its own as well as a boxed Warbringer 2, just like they did with the alternate Warlord and Reavers.
That way, those of us who bought Warbringer 1 + upgrade sprue would still have all the cards we need for every combination, without having to buy a Warbringer 2. I'd guess that Warbingers wouldn't merit their own card pack, since the volcano/quake cannon are the only unique weapons they have.
I could see them releasing a second warbringer sprue with Carapace Volcano Cannon and Arm meltacannon and gatling blaster + alt heads and armour plates.
zedmeister wrote: I could see them releasing a second warbringer sprue with Carapace Volcano Cannon and Arm meltacannon and gatling blaster + alt heads and armour plates.
I was hoping that, but unlike the Reaver & Warlord the Warbringer head is on the same sprue as the main body rather than the weapons.
Nothing to stop them including a 2nd head on a new weapon sprue of course, but still a little worrying.
Tavis75 wrote: Having seen an unboxing, my question about the weapons cards for the Warbringer have been answered, and it does come with what I thought. Two cards for the carapace weapon (Quake and Belicosa Volcano cannons) and one arm weapon card, though as the arm weapon cards are the Reaver weapons then there are cards available already (the Warbringer card even still calls the arm weapon a Reaver arm weapon).
However, one follow on from that is it suggests to me that they aren't planning a second plastic kit for the Warbringer with the Volcano cannon, otherwise it would have seemed to make more sense to ship this one with the 3 cards for the weapons it actually has and then have 3 different cards in the second version that also match the supplied weapons. So seems the carapace volcano cannon will be resin.
They have printed the wrong "volcano cannon" card. I'm very sure a quick email to Forgeworld would confirm it.
Yeah It should be the S10 Volcano. And the funny part is they probably print lots of these 1 piece weapon card, how this error happen is simply mind blowing, they had a whole year.
Mildly disappointed that Legio Infernus have no tangible bonus for Warlords whatsoever, despite the fact that they are a Legion that almost exclusively uses Warlords + Warhounds in the lore. Hopefully Warlords get some kind of melta weapon down the road to encourage their use
That Mordaxis scheme, though, has really captured my imagination. Love it. Probably never going to get transfers knowing my luck though
Marshal Loss wrote: Mildly disappointed that Legio Infernus have no tangible bonus for Warlords whatsoever, despite the fact that they are a Legion that almost exclusively uses Warlords + Warhounds in the lore. Hopefully Warlords get some kind of melta weapon down the road to encourage their use
That Mordaxis scheme, though, has really captured my imagination. Love it. Probably never going to get transfers knowing my luck though
Regarding Mordaxis, I think you only have to look at two of the transfer sets in this release to know that those things are an absolute crapshoot. So maybe?
Chopstick wrote: Yeah It should be the S10 Volcano. And the funny part is they probably print lots of these 1 piece weapon card, how this error happen is simply mind blowing, they had a whole year.
It's a weird decision, but not a misprint. The BELICOSA is a carapace mount and corridor fire arc for the warbringer. And the 3 weapon cards are together on a punch out sheet.
I've just sent an email to Forgeworld to clarify if the Warbringer kit has the wrong volcano card or not. Also, I've raised the issue about the Acastus being restricted in games.
Why would it be resin? The VC already exists in plastic, magentize the one that came with your Warlord and you're good to go.
I’m pretty sure the back mounted one will have a different mounting point/method than the Warlords arm ones, I don’t think it’ll be that simple.
That's a Quake Cannon, not a Volcano Cannon.
Yes, but the way the back weapon mounts on means you can’t just magnetise you’re warlords Volcano cannon and whack it on the back. Unless you mean the smaller volcano cannon for the arm, which comes with the Reaver, not the Warlord?
I didn't realise that Audax got a strength increase along with the reinforced plating...interesting.
In another way I'm a bit disappointed that Shadow & Iron hasn't introduced the maniple - or was it a legio? - where we can take scout titans, and not necessarily the Hound. It was mentioned waaaay back.
Is that not Audax? There just isn’t any other scout titans out yet.
Yeah, the Wolves Among Prey rule limits Audax to Scale 6 and below. The Stalk Unseen rule and their Legio wargear reference "Audax Titan". So (eventually) Rapier Scout Titans will be legal for Audax and benefit from all that stuff. That was the rumor from the studio a while back -- that Audax isn't just limited to Warhounds...they're limited to SCOUTS.
However, the current maniples are all locked to certain Titan types. So to field Rapiers in a maniple, either the current maniples will need to change in an errata, or we'll need new Rapier-based maniples. The latter option is how they're handling the Warbringer. Which is an interesting design decision.
zedmeister wrote: I could see them releasing a second warbringer sprue with Carapace Volcano Cannon and Arm meltacannon and gatling blaster + alt heads and armour plates.
I was hoping that, but unlike the Reaver & Warlord the Warbringer head is on the same sprue as the main body rather than the weapons.
Nothing to stop them including a 2nd head on a new weapon sprue of course, but still a little worrying.
Maybe the second kit won't have the Nemesis designation, and therefore have design differences like a new head to underline that?
Chopstick wrote: Yeah It should be the S10 Volcano. And the funny part is they probably print lots of these 1 piece weapon card, how this error happen is simply mind blowing, they had a whole year.
It's a punch card with three weapons on it.
gorgon wrote: However, the current maniples are all locked to certain Titan types. So to field Rapiers in a maniple, either the current maniples will need to change in an errata, or we'll need new Rapier-based maniples. The latter option is how they're handling the Warbringer. Which is an interesting design decision.
Maybe the second kit won't have the Nemesis designation, and therefore have design differences like a new head to underline that?
Warbringer is an artillery titan, so has a different role and different maniples. A Rapier being a different scout titan could go either with different maniples, or with a simple rule that it may replace a Warhound in a maniple.
I'm hoping for a different head, though I'm still waiting on the Lucius Alpha head for the Warlord. Still have fingers crossed for a third warlord sprue with the Lucius Alpha head, Gatling Blaster, Quake Cannon, Las Cutter, and carapace VMBs.
Chopstick wrote: Yeah It should be the S10 Volcano. And the funny part is they probably print lots of these 1 piece weapon card, how this error happen is simply mind blowing, they had a whole year.
It's a punch card with three weapons on it.
That's the point, this is a new print, they print the (new) card with the Warbringer text at the corner then cut it so you can "punch" it. A botched print like this is catastrophic, would need to be recalled, reprint, and repackage which waste lots of time and money.
Absolutely top tier design checker they got, I doubt they even got someone in that role.
Mr_Rose wrote: What is ‘weapon critically disabled’ exactly? Do we have any info about that?
I checked the warbringer instructions, new rulebook, and shadow and iron book, didn't see anything. Meanwhile, I got confused by the shock lance and ursus claw both being specialized weapons (cannot be repaired unless otherwise specified) both having a normal repair value on the flip side in shadow and iron.
Chopstick wrote: Yeah It should be the S10 Volcano. And the funny part is they probably print lots of these 1 piece weapon card, how this error happen is simply mind blowing, they had a whole year.
It's a punch card with three weapons on it.
That's the point, this is a new print, they print the (new) card with the Warbringer text at the corner then cut it so you can "punch" it. A botched print like this is catastrophic, would need to be recalled, reprint, and repackage which waste lots of time and money.
Absolutely top tier design checker they got, I doubt they even got someone in that role.
What error are you talking about? The top Volcano is supposed to be a Belicosa, not the smaller Reaver one and seems to be all right?
The real question isn't why is there a Reaver arm card missing, the question is why is there one in the first place. You should have those cards already.
While GW makes plenty of mistakes, this time I think they wanted to just print 2 new Carapace cards for the Nemesis and then they had 1 slot left over on the punch card and simply put something useful in there.
The big question is why include only the reaver laser blaster card and not the reaver volcano card?
Either they wanted to include two warbringer-specific carapace cards, or three cards for the weapons that are actually included in the kit.
Being as they have the warbringer's weapons on a single sprue, it seems easily exchanged for a variant kit - which has already been the case for the Reaver and Warlord. Even if not, why expect customers to purchase both of the previous two Reaver weapon sprues and a resin Volcano cannon?
That all said, glass half-full , this is a "happy accident". If you feel like making your own volcano cannon for the Warbringer's carapace, you have its card early, and all the reaver weapons are included in the rules set or - if fielding at least one reaver alongside your Warbringer - you could just purchase the Reaver weapon card pack for plenty of copies, which is but £7.50 and now covers two titans.
I assume the legio ignatum transfer sheet sold out to pre-orders, as today is release day and all knowledge of it has been expunged from the GW website?
If anyone is interested, the psi-Titan is being supplied as a full (shrink-wrapped) Warlord plus a Forge World ‘white box’ containing a “Warlord-Sinister Psi-Titan Upgrade Kit” which would seem to imply that the upgrade kit may be available separately later.
What error are you talking about? The top Volcano is supposed to be a Belicosa, not the smaller Reaver one and seems to be all right?
Sigh, okay here goes
The model they sell to you come with :
1. The S10 Reaver arm Volcano Cannon
2. Reaver arm Laser Blaster
3. Carapace Mori Quake Cannon.
For the punch card you get 3 cards on it:
1. Carapace Mori Quake Cannon.
2. Carapace Belicosa Volcano Cannon.
3. Reaver arm Laser Blaster.
Something is missing?
Hire a design checker.
Right, I see. See, I agree with others that this is a non-issue. The important thing is that you get the two new cards, rest is just gravy which probably has something to do with how they print those things. Filling space with an extra arm card is better than leaving it off.
Yeah it's not a huge issue as the main rules set comes with the missing Reaver card.
What might be a problem is if there's another Warbringer box that comes with the wrong volcano cannon card. Suppose they still have time to fix that though.
I watched the Twitch feed battle report from Thursday with the new rules, and while it's not definitive, there didn't seem to be anything massively unbalanced about the new stuff.
I'm picking up the starter set when I get back from vacation. Finally gonna add actual Titans to the pair of Cerastus I bought for test painting the HH/40K scale knights I have.
Excited to actually play the game, all of the batreps I've watched really gets me hyped.
Togusa wrote: How is the new book? One of my buddies is super reactionary and was raving about this book completely breaking the game.
Any truth?
Nah. Maniples are fun more than super powerful (Canis throws a spanner in the works but doesn't really add to killiness, Arcus is stylistic, Mandatus is good for smaller games when you just want a Warlord and Ruptura takes skill to pull off and telegraphs its thing very much in advance), psititans are so expensive they earn the right to be powerful while dying just as easily as Warlords in general, Legio traits look good but have drawbacks (only Warhounds for Audax, less movement for Mordax, doesn't work at short range for Praesagius...) et cetera.
This book looks to be damn exciting with new things that aren't oppressive like the Acastus were. This is good.
Mr_Rose wrote: If anyone is interested, the psi-Titan is being supplied as a full (shrink-wrapped) Warlord plus a Forge World ‘white box’ containing a “Warlord-Sinister Psi-Titan Upgrade Kit” which would seem to imply that the upgrade kit may be available separately later.
Which along with the over priced Blackstone expansion is GW's second "jerk" move of 2020. Its even two separate lines on the invoice.
No reason other than profiteering that they did it this way.
Reading through the Shadow and Iron fluff, and there is a mention of the Legio Praesagius fielding a Warmonger Titan at Calth. No real description of it though, other than it being larger than a Warlord. So that's another one to speculate about
GoatboyBeta wrote: Reading through the Shadow and Iron fluff, and there is a mention of the Legio Praesagius fielding a Warmonger Titan at Calth. No real description of it though, other than it being larger than a Warlord. So that's another one to speculate about
Warmonger was the alternate Emperor-class titan style, focused around long range fire support rather than short-mid range like an Imperator.
That’s not a new type; it’s the other pattern of Emperor Titan.
For those that don’t know, the Emperor class chassis had two different possible load-outs (the main weapons were so massive and so integrated into the rest of the Titan that simple weapon swap refits weren’t an option), the Imperator (Hellstorm Cannon and Macro-plasma Annihilator, aka the ‘common’ one) and the Warmonger which carried a Doomstrike missile battery (eight support missiles which could be vortex or warp or some other things) and a Vengeance Cannon, basically a double-barrelled, extended range Bellicosa Cannon.
I don't think I recall ever seeing the kit sold for the warmonger. I know there's a load of conversions out there for it. If it was sold then it must have been one of those short term things that vanished pretty fast.
Mr_Rose wrote: If anyone is interested, the psi-Titan is being supplied as a full (shrink-wrapped) Warlord plus a Forge World ‘white box’ containing a “Warlord-Sinister Psi-Titan Upgrade Kit” which would seem to imply that the upgrade kit may be available separately later.
Which along with the over priced Blackstone expansion is GW's second "jerk" move of 2020. Its even two separate lines on the invoice.
No reason other than profiteering that they did it this way.
“Two separate lines on the invoice”
Anyone tried cancelling the superfluous invoice line then? Or returning it?
Mr_Rose wrote: If anyone is interested, the psi-Titan is being supplied as a full (shrink-wrapped) Warlord plus a Forge World ‘white box’ containing a “Warlord-Sinister Psi-Titan Upgrade Kit” which would seem to imply that the upgrade kit may be available separately later.
Which along with the over priced Blackstone expansion is GW's second "jerk" move of 2020. Its even two separate lines on the invoice.
No reason other than profiteering that they did it this way.
“Two separate lines on the invoice”
Anyone tried cancelling the superfluous invoice line then? Or returning it?
Considering GW is only packaging and shipping paired sets chances are it would just cancel the whole order. Either automatically or when its reviewed and packed for shipping.
Honestly we know that GW is likely doing the same thing they've done several times before with AT - releasing a full kit and then upgrade kits later. Keep in mind even iwth the magnet slots many people will be building single mechs and the Psy Titan is just the sort of thing many will build as a single build model. So they'll need the warlord core most of the time regardless.
Being as they have the warbringer's weapons on a single sprue, it seems easily exchanged for a variant kit - which has already been the case for the Reaver and Warlord. Even if not, why expect customers to purchase both of the previous two Reaver weapon sprues and a resin Volcano cannon?
.
Apart from moulds being expensive so fw has only limited amount of plastics they are allowed to put out? Why didn't they put out 3rd plastic warlord or reaver for missing weapons?
Mr_Rose wrote: If anyone is interested, the psi-Titan is being supplied as a full (shrink-wrapped) Warlord plus a Forge World ‘white box’ containing a “Warlord-Sinister Psi-Titan Upgrade Kit” which would seem to imply that the upgrade kit may be available separately later.
Which along with the over priced Blackstone expansion is GW's second "jerk" move of 2020. Its even two separate lines on the invoice.
No reason other than profiteering that they did it this way.
Bohoo. Would it have made you happier to have it all in white box?
Warmonger was a pre-order from mail order deal as noted during Titan Legion day’s (my cousin used to grab all sorts of models that way, hence why I now have his warmonger plus one of the never released dark elf sorceress models).
It did make a short appearance during the Firepower day’s (that spoilered image was from there) so it was “properly” available but for a very short period before epic 40k went away forever :(
Togusa wrote: How is the new book? One of my buddies is super reactionary and was raving about this book completely breaking the game.
Any truth?
What was your buddy saying was game-breaking about it?
The Psi-Titan stuff?
He didn't specify, he simply said "This new book completely breaks the entire game, I'm getting out, selling my titans. 200$ and they're all yours."
Uh… OK? I have no idea how it does that, especially if the game can survive the unabridged Acastus… I for one would be interested to know what is so “broken” if you can find out?
But before that, what’s his collection like and would you be willing to re-ship?
Being as they have the warbringer's weapons on a single sprue, it seems easily exchanged for a variant kit - which has already been the case for the Reaver and Warlord. Even if not, why expect customers to purchase both of the previous two Reaver weapon sprues and a resin Volcano cannon?
.
Apart from moulds being expensive so fw has only limited amount of plastics they are allowed to put out? Why didn't they put out 3rd plastic warlord or reaver for missing weapons?
Which is cheaper to release; A brand new titan with entirely new sprues - or an existing titan which only requires an alternative weapon sprue? Got a feeling the Warbringer and its variant will probably be the only substantial titan release until later in the year - possibly until 2021. They did mention some Knight releases and more books, and this month has seen more AT releases than any other...this could be it for a long while. Realistically, they have released two Titans this month...
Those plastic upgrade sprues were made with the titan and variant kits in mind. Both sprues on the Reaver have exactly 1 carapace and 3 arm weapons and a head for the titan, and thats as far as they needed to go with plastic. That goes for the Warlord too, although its blessed with far more components than the Reaver. I don't think they intend to release more than one plastic variant kit for a titan, and the Warhounds didn't seem to need one.
As they are already following a vanilla-then-variant-then-resin release format for the previous larger titans, I don't seem them changing that for the time being. I reckon we'll see a Warbringer variant kit, then a separate upgrade sprue, and then going forward new weapons will be released in resin to coincide with new books - much like the Ursus Claws and the other hound weapon. Well, I'm assuming the new weapons are going to be resin - I'm jumping the gun on that one, but confident all the same.
Togusa wrote: How is the new book? One of my buddies is super reactionary and was raving about this book completely breaking the game.
Any truth?
What was your buddy saying was game-breaking about it?
The Psi-Titan stuff?
He didn't specify, he simply said "This new book completely breaks the entire game, I'm getting out, selling my titans. 200$ and they're all yours."
I tend to find that people like that can be:
1) Young and impulsive or just very impulsive.
2) Were already looking for a way out and just use a new book/rules/event as an excuse to help self justify their choice.
3) Want to have an easy "I win" button, but don't want others to have them. So for AT where everyone has (currently) the same roster; anything they can see as overpowered is bad because it means their opponents all get it too. Plus something "big" like a new titan is really obvious rather than a subtle army list twist that gives them the edge.
4) Just mouthing off and next week they've still got their models and want a game. Sometimes this group can come unstuck if they actually do go through with an idea and end up without an army that, within a few days, they want again.
As a friend I'd try and convince them to stay or at least see how they are in a weeks time and if they are still really wound up about it. Sometimes people cool off; sometimes you can help cool them of; and sometimes it just builds and builds and they cannot be turned from their path.
SamusDrake wrote: Just got a reply from Forgeworld and the Warbringer cards and Acastus rules are in GW's lap, as Forgeworld do not sell nor had created those products.
So if its sold on the GW site then any errors(if they have been made) are their responsibility.
I do now wonder if it is a deliberate choice, it seems slightly odd that the cards don't match the supplied weapons, but I notice the artwork of the cards on the Warbringer box show the two carapace weapons. Also, if they intend to release the Belicosa Volcano Carapace weapon as a resin kit then it means the card for it is already available, rather than needing to supply a new card with the weapon kit, whereas the arm Volcano cannon does already have a card available.
I do now wonder if it is a deliberate choice, it seems slightly odd that the cards don't match the supplied weapons, but I notice the artwork of the cards on the Warbringer box show the two carapace weapons. Also, if they intend to release the Belicosa Volcano Carapace weapon as a resin kit then it means the card for it is already available, rather than needing to supply a new card with the weapon kit, whereas the arm Volcano cannon does already have a card available.
That is a very good point you make there Travis. As illogical as it seems, its certainly not a bad thing.
Am I right in thinking that the Warbringer comes with a pair of pipes (A11) that aren't actually used? Or at least, are missing from the instructions?
I have a 40k scale Warbringer as well and I can't find any pipes on that which match these either.
They actually seem to fit quite nicely between the unused sockets for the pipes that go to the head and the head itself, slotting in just below and in front of the existing pipes on the head, but not quite to the right place that they should if they were intended for that purpose (there's a slight redesign between the 40k version and the AT version in that the pipes on the head actually run from the body to the head on the 40k version rather than just between two points on the head).
Tavis75 wrote: Am I right in thinking that the Warbringer comes with a pair of pipes (A11) that aren't actually used? Or at least, are missing from the instructions?
I have a 40k scale Warbringer as well and I can't find any pipes on that which match these either.
They actually seem to fit quite nicely between the unused sockets for the pipes that go to the head and the head itself, slotting in just below and in front of the existing pipes on the head, but not quite to the right place that they should if they were intended for that purpose (there's a slight redesign between the 40k version and the AT version in that the pipes on the head actually run from the body to the head on the 40k version rather than just between two points on the head).
So any ideas, anyone else found a use for them?
They are used if you cut the preposed tabs off of the legs/knee joints and need longer cables for posing. The instructions just never called out that you can remove the tabs and use those two pieces instead.
Right now I think the lance could be the gem, though. Claws have a couple important issues -- they don't get any regular armor roll bonuses (because they don't make armor rolls), and they tend to mess up the Warhound itself and destroy the claw if you don't roll high enough on the impale roll.
Of course, you can outfit a bunch of Warhounds with them and stack up the +1s. But there's an opportunity cost at play there equal to all the other better ranged weapons you didn't bring. The Experimental Weapon strat is a potential solution if you want to keep your claw numbers down (or use it AND bring more claws to stack it up really high). But now you're spending precious strat points.
Meanwhile, the lance is something you can throw one of into a maniple and every now and then watch it pay off in a big way. Its main advantage is that it gets those armor roll bonuses from Lupercal squadrons, side/rear arcs, etc. And all you need is a direct hit to force the 4+ shutdown roll. It's not a titan killer like the claws could be, but it's a heckuva force multiplier if you can cause a shutdown on a big Titan and let the rest of your force unload on it.
Maybe I'm wrong though. It's always possible that going all-in on massed claws can just bring down one Titan after another, especially when you're using some Lupercal activation shenanigans. I'll try it different ways.
Neither weapon can be repaired at the moment so a few pesky aimed shots could strip the warhounds of half their firepower.
you'll need a few to pull a Warlord over, and pity the poor 'hound whose first to go in a Coordinated Strike and then start praying when his buddies miss... once that first claw's launched you're committed to the tug of war.
MarkNorfolk wrote: Neither weapon can be repaired at the moment so a few pesky aimed shots could strip the warhounds of half their firepower.
you'll need a few to pull a Warlord over, and pity the poor 'hound whose first to go in a Coordinated Strike and then start praying when his buddies miss... once that first claw's launched you're committed to the tug of war.
The claw and lance have the 'Specialised' rule, which says they can't be repaired. The cards still have a disabled side, but that's probably future-proofing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkNorfolk wrote: Neither weapon can be repaired at the moment so a few pesky aimed shots could strip the warhounds of half their firepower.
you'll need a few to pull a Warlord over, and pity the poor 'hound whose first to go in a Coordinated Strike and then start praying when his buddies miss... once that first claw's launched you're committed to the tug of war.
JWBS wrote: Looks fine. I do prefer the conversion that guy did though.
What conversion would that be? There are too few Titanicus conversions kicking around at the moment so I like to see all the ones I can!
Some nice looking weapons, depending on the price I will either pick some up or make my own as they look fairly simple to kitbash given a decent bitz box.
Base a nice dark brown like dryad bark or something. Use the face-scrub marbling technique with a good red like, say, evil sunz scarlet, then wash the whole thing in nuln oil. Or nuln oil gloss if you want it shiny.
JWBS wrote: Looks fine. I do prefer the conversion that guy did though.
What conversion would that be? There are too few Titanicus conversions kicking around at the moment so I like to see all the ones I can!
Some nice looking weapons, depending on the price I will either pick some up or make my own as they look fairly simple to kitbash given a decent bitz box.
To save everyone a click, the Acastus has been nerfed hard:
Roughly doubled in points.
Conversion beamer is +15pts more than magna lascannons.
Max 1-2 knights per banner.
Must be taken as reinforcements, can't be part of a lance.
Max 1 banner per maniple / lance.
Probably fair, although it would have been nice to still take them within a lance.
*slaps head* So rather than tone down acastus so they don't shoot ridiculously lot and still keep shooting them take ages with dtons of scatter they just limited number of them you can take.
How knight can outshoot titan...And not even warhound one.
tneva82 wrote: *slaps head* So rather than tone down acastus so they don't shoot ridiculously lot and still keep shooting them take ages with dtons of scatter they just limited number of them you can take.
How knight can outshoot titan...And not even warhound one.
Totally agree. Their weapons feel disproportionate vs Titan weapons. Would have preferred a weapon nerf to balance these vs the point and #/list, but this change is preferable to no changes by a mile.
I'm surprised they didn't just release a new printable pdf for acastus banner. Instead they expect people to scribble dabble on the banner card like some Orkz?
They deliberately made changes that only affect army list writing, so that existing command terminals don't become inccurate for in-game use. It's not perfect but it does make some sense.
Hopefully they'll update the downloadable terminals too, as we never got Acastus on there in the first place. Would also be nice to see things like titans of legend that are now out of print.
tneva82 wrote: *slaps head* So rather than tone down acastus so they don't shoot ridiculously lot and still keep shooting them take ages with dtons of scatter they just limited number of them you can take.
How knight can outshoot titan...And not even warhound one.
Totally agree. Their weapons feel disproportionate vs Titan weapons. Would have preferred a weapon nerf to balance these vs the point and #/list, but this change is preferable to no changes by a mile.
Yeah better than nothing. Doesn't affect our games then though. We continue with our own nerfs. Keeps them feel more like big knights than small titans and faster to play.
When as opponent you are hoping acastus banner gets few if any misses it's not a good sign
Change the base points cost of an Acastus Knight Banner to 150 points + weapons.
Acastus Knight Banner
Back of Card
Change the Unit Size description to:“An Acastus Knight Banner consists of one Acastus Knight Lord Scion. If you wish, you can add an additional Acastus Knight Scion Marital for 130 points.”
Change the cost of the Twin Magna Lascannon & Ironstorm Missile Pod to +35 points.
Change the cost of the Twin Conversion Beam Cannon and Karacnos Mortar Battery to +50 points.
Add the following special rule:“Auxiliary Knight Banner: A Battlegroup can include a maximum of one Acastus Knight Banner per maniple as reinforcements. A Knight Household Force can include a maximum of one Auxiliary Knight Banner per Lance as reinforcements. No Knight Banner within a Lance may be an Auxiliary Knight Banner.”
Is the thinking that this doesn't 'help' with the issue enough?
Well i would say it's enough. Just not from angle i would prefer. I would have nerfed guns so even reavers aren"t so scared of firefight vs them and where game doesn't go to scatter template mess.
Big knight rather than small titan would be where i would prefer to see them.
Blast also feels just weird. Those lasers never seemed huge explosions but rather focused beams
It helps, as you get less of them on the field and they cannot be used as the cheapest extra activation in the game any more, it is just aesthetically annoying they didn't change their normal rules to be less effective. Knights shooting bigger guns than turbolasers is very counterintuitive in an otherwise pretty immersive game.
Turbolaser in AT is pretty weak, in comparison to its function in other setting.
Knights also carry very impressive weaponry, because they're made (or remade) in the modern age. Atropos carry a vortex gun(which is S10 in AT), and a destroyer class blowtorch.
Are they seriously suggesting that the two Acastus Banners I have in my Lance are no longer allowed?
I dunno, I don't play, but my first thought was to wonder why they restricted numbers allowed instead of just nerfing, because applying number restrictions seems like the least fun way to make them fair to play.
They really need to make up their minds - either all-Knight armies are intended to be viable or they're just meant to be fluff. If they want them to be viable, they're eventually just going to have to learn to ignore the whinging of the "AT is for Titans and only Titans!!!" crowd, who'll never be satisfied until Knights are nothing more than a minor speedbump for Scout engines.
"Knight household force" rule and anything related is a joke. No care or consideration whatsoever. Giving up the freedom of movement/loadout, free maniple/legio rule, and useful stratagem for some lacklusting "equivalent" is not how you do it.
Acastus are still good point filler, just not as durable. They're more like glasscannon now.
gorgon wrote: I strongly suspect the guns weren't nerfed because they feel they're needed to help make Knight armies competitive.
Eh you can have weaker guns at cheaper cost and beefier gun at beefier cost. Neither is inheritently better(assuming cost is correct) or needed for competive.
However it does affect how the unit feels. Now poryphorion is serious worry in shooting duel to reaver that's not equipped with volcano cannon.
At least I would prefer poryphonion that feels big knight rather than small titan with big titan weapons.
Both ways can be balanced and competive.
But which way you want it to feel? Should the knights outshoot titans by being armed with bigger badder weapons or by having numbers at their side?
(also less amount allowed of overpowered stuff is by definition of bad rule design. If you claim something is fine because it's 0-1 that's bad arqument. The infamous unique price drop. It just makes 0-1 into effectively 1)
edit: Also there's issue of time. Rolling 7-8 scatters when 2 poryphorion fires isn't fun. And 4 is average often enough. That takes annoiying amount of time. When as an opponent you hope they don't miss just to save time there'ssomething wrong.
They've effectively taken knight armies back to square one, as we already had the choice to take Titans as support to provided much needed firepower.
To balance things out they will now introduce the following rule for Knight houses....
Harsh language; To represent the frustation of only being allowed firepower in support only, Knight players may now swear at players fielding an opposing Titan force. Only the following keywords may be used.... <£?!*head> and <&#!hole>. The Frank Spencer insult keyword <you devil!> cannot be used.
Well, I guess we're gonna need a new maniple to replace our now broken Knight house....
The Canis maniple is very cool...it's kinda/sorta Genestealer Cult ambush for 
