beast_gts wrote: Their Combat Patrol box doesn't seem as good value as the previous ones.
£119 worth for £85, I think it's only £3 off the blood angel and/or space wolf one off the top of my head. It's not bad, I also would have a use for all of these units myself, be it as units or the case of the chaplain parts, the other kits have either aggressors or reavers which I would not want at all for my army or a dark angel army personally.
I actually think it is the most versatile and fully usable of the marine combat patrols so far, no redundant or dud units.
Is it me, or is leaving Heavy Intercessors for the KT release a real dick move by GW?
Later than any unit, restricted to a box most people won't want, and it will likely take months to have them as stand-alone.
We are talking about a troop unit there.
Blood Angels is £150.50, Space Wolves £128, Deathwatch £125.50 & Dark Angels £119 (or £128 if they include 2 upgrade sprues) (Death Guard is £132.50). So not as good as the Blood Angels, but largely in line with the others.
And with the new Captain & Heavy Intercessors coming in the Kill Team: Pariah Nexus box, are there any Marine releases left?
Thankfully, that should be it. Please let it be a real long time before we get any more.
The only real thing that needs to be released for marines now if being picky are the alternate gravis captain build from dark vengeance and some of the exclusive characters from the latest box set, like the Judicier and captain etc, a generic primaris ancient as well. Character kits basically.
DanielFM wrote: Is it me, or is leaving Heavy Intercessors for the KT release a real dick move by GW?
When they first teased it we assumed it would be the Assault Intercessors & Flayed Ones. GW has released stuff in KT boxes before 40k releases before (Kelermorph, Tech-Priest Manipulus)
beast_gts wrote: Blood Angels is £150.50, Space Wolves £128, Deathwatch £125.50 & Dark Angels £119 (or £128 if they include 2 upgrade sprues) (Death Guard is £132.50). So not as good as the Blood Angels, but largely in line with the others.
Just checked out blood angels, great deal other than the the lack of use for aggressors personally, I may pick one up.
I've just realised the 5x man death company Intercessors are more expensive price wise, but you're paying £1 more per upgrade sprue that way, than if you bought a squad of 10 and 2x upgrade sprues separately. Weird pricing.
Anyone think that this is probably the last SM combat patrol box too? I can't really see them doing a new box for all the second line chapters, and definitely no first born CP boxes, so that would only leave UM, which I'd have expected to be released first if they got one.
Sasori wrote: One thing I am a bit suprised at, as this is coming before the Warzone and Crusade supplement. I figured those would be next after DG.
If they were printed in China they could still be stuck in a container somewhere.
JWBS wrote: Anyone think that this is probably the last SM combat patrol box too? I can't really see them doing a new box for all the second line chapters, and definitely no first born CP boxes, so that would only leave UM, which I'd have expected to be released first if they got one.
Probably. None of them are especially Chapter-specific (except for the upgrade sprues) and there's not much else they can throw in them. A Firstborn or 30k would would be great, but pigs will probably fly first...
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The only real thing that needs to be released for marines now if being picky are the alternate gravis captain build from dark vengeance and some of the exclusive characters from the latest box set, like the Judicier and captain etc, a generic primaris ancient as well. Character kits basically.
Did the Space Wolf Lt. (or whatever rank they gave him) ever get an individual release? I couldn't find him on the UK webstore when I went for a look the other day, but the BA/DA/Ultra ones were all up there.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The only real thing that needs to be released for marines now if being picky are the alternate gravis captain build from dark vengeance and some of the exclusive characters from the latest box set, like the Judicier and captain etc, a generic primaris ancient as well. Character kits basically.
Did the Space Wolf Lt. (or whatever rank they gave him) ever get an individual release? I couldn't find him on the UK webstore when I went for a look the other day, but the BA/DA/Ultra ones were all up there.
Battle Leader, and I don't think he has - Tooth & Claw box, Start Collecting! Primaris Space Wolves box and now the Combat Patrol box.
Sasori wrote: Besides the Judicator, and the later Heavy Intercessors and ranged Intercessor captain, this should do it for Marine releases.
I hope for several years at the very least. Not sure what the plan is with the 8th edition supplements going forward.
I have an inkling you will be disappointed then... Grey knights are still to come (which I know are different really but yeah) and, I wouldn't be surprised if black templars get their own supplement, however, I can't imagine that being in the next 12 or 24 months.
I also wouldn't put it past GW upgrading multiple SC's to primaris as they go along through the years as well, like Azrael, or Dante etc.
Actually, there are more kits. Supressors haven't got an individual multipart kit yet still...
A primaris flyer is inevitable at some point also, as well as a true Land raider upgrade as lets face it, a repressor isn't quite heavy duty enough to be a true primaris land raider alternative, as well as true primaris terminators as again, aggressors don't quite fit the full bill as them. These three are just pure speculation though...
DanielFM wrote: Is it me, or is leaving Heavy Intercessors for the KT release a real dick move by GW?
When they first teased it we assumed it would be the Assault Intercessors & Flayed Ones. GW has released stuff in KT boxes before 40k releases before (Kelermorph, Tech-Priest Manipulus)
It wasn't after 4 months of waiting for the models, though. This time it's really different.
Even if they released the KT box next month (unlikely) that would mean waiting another two months minimum for the stand alone kit. Six months after the codex or worse.
I think people will lose interest about the unit and sales will be mediocre. Their rules aren't even that ground-breaking. We aren't talking Bladeguard and Eradicators there, so good that people would buy them even if they were released in summer.
DanielFM wrote: Is it me, or is leaving Heavy Intercessors for the KT release a real dick move by GW?
When they first teased it we assumed it would be the Assault Intercessors & Flayed Ones. GW has released stuff in KT boxes before 40k releases before (Kelermorph, Tech-Priest Manipulus)
It wasn't after 4 months of waiting for the models, though. This time it's really different.
Even if they released the KT box next month (unlikely) that would mean waiting another two months minimum for the stand alone kit. Six months after the codex or worse.
I think people will lose interest about the unit and sales will be mediocre. Their rules aren't even that ground-breaking. We aren't talking Bladeguard and Eradicators there, so good that people would buy them even if they were released in summer.
I don't think they need to be ground breaking. A lot of people are really excited about terminator equivalents being Troops, and the heavy intercessors aren't as convertable or replaceable as say, assault intercessors. They were probably the best choice to put in this box to move it. A lot of Necron players are really excited about the Chronomancer.
Those will push sales and probably clear the initial run of these boxes. FOMO and the push to have the 'latest thing' will drive a lot of sales.
The only things that might push sales down is if the price is way too high, or if people find they can't ditch the flayed ones (which is quite possible, since the codex has so many other melee units now)
So the landspeeder turret... how does the guy get in there? Is it like seeing someone into their underwear, and they bolt the turret on after he climbs in?
Also as the lascannon appears to be fixed forward, why not have the pilot use that and have the gunner using a remote turret.
The 3 heads and crew in precisely the same pose is a bit creepy as well.
I'm probably behind the curve on this one,.so apologies if these gripes are already well.recorded...
I'd hope there's a way to preclude the rear passenger from the build, and also to swap heads for the front guys, though there's no indication of that going from the alternate build pics.
Flinty wrote: So the landspeeder turret... how does the guy get in there? Is it like seeing someone into their underwear, and they bolt the turret on after he climbs in?
Also as the lascannon appears to be fixed forward, why not have the pilot use that and have the gunner using a remote turret.
I've not seen the back of the model, so I don't know if the turret gunner enters via a back hatch or if the entire turret mechanism raises up to allow entry from the top. I guess we will see soon enough.
As for the pilot, isn't that him behind the hull gun? Drivers in the UK are on the right side of a car after all. That gives the driver the fixed gun, the gunner the sponsons, and the turret gunner the final weapon.
I'm just crossing my fingers we now know the next 6 months of Space Marine releases:
Codex Supplements and the various kits going on prerelease next week
Kill Team release of Heavy Intercessors and Gravis Captain with Heavy Bolt Rifle
Individual release for Heavy Intercessors and Gravis Captain with Heavy Bolt Rifle
The only Space Marine thing "needed" at this point is Codex Supplement Black Templars. They could pair that with the HI release and give the rest of the 40K releases to anything non-Loyalist Astartes.
Flinty wrote: So the landspeeder turret... how does the guy get in there? Is it like seeing someone into their underwear, and they bolt the turret on after he climbs in?
Also as the lascannon appears to be fixed forward, why not have the pilot use that and have the gunner using a remote turret.
Agreed. A service hatch to maintain the weapon would be fine. With the way we know marine helmets work with targeting ('blink-clicking' subjects), the gunner seems more than sufficient- there doesn't need to be a third man popping up like a gopher in the back.
I'm kind of puzzled by the missiles on the lastalon variant as well. Nothing on the datasheet indicates those are limited, but there's clearly just two of them, one under each wing. I figured they'd be part of a launcher like the 2nd variant (with the triple melta), with 'twin rocket pods' more like the onslaught variant's fragstorm launchers.
Voss wrote: ...I'm kind of puzzled by the missiles on the lastalon variant as well. Nothing on the datasheet indicates those are limited, but there's clearly just two of them, one under each wing. I figured they'd be part of a launcher like the 2nd variant (with the triple melta), with 'twin rocket pods' more like the onslaught variant's fragstorm launchers.
That's not unusual. Stormravens' four missiles are now two infinite-use launchers, Valkyries' two hellstrike missiles can be fired every turn.
Voss wrote: ...I'm kind of puzzled by the missiles on the lastalon variant as well. Nothing on the datasheet indicates those are limited, but there's clearly just two of them, one under each wing. I figured they'd be part of a launcher like the 2nd variant (with the triple melta), with 'twin rocket pods' more like the onslaught variant's fragstorm launchers.
That's not unusual. Stormravens' four missiles are now two infinite-use launchers, Valkyries' two hellstrike missiles can be fired every turn.
/shrug. Not unusual doesn't make it any better.
Its just really strange that they designed four different types of launcher for this one kit, then shrugged and went... nah. Just bodge two missiles on there, its fine.
The even-more-meltier multimelta is just as odd from a rules perspective. Lets just randomly throw another new profile in the book for this one vehicle. The model designers really felt it needed that extra shot, so into the _five and half_ solid pages of weapon profiles it goes.
Anyone know if there will be any DA specific models included in release?
It appears not. I kind of thought they would put either Lazarus (since he can also be built as a generic DA captain) or the DA Lieutenant in the Combat Patrol box, but they chose to put a Chappy in instead.
DanielFM wrote: Is it me, or is leaving Heavy Intercessors for the KT release a real dick move by GW?
Those will push sales and probably clear the initial run of these boxes. FOMO and the push to have the 'latest thing' will drive a lot of sales.
The only things that might push sales down is if the price is way too high, or if people find they can't ditch the flayed ones (which is quite possible, since the codex has so many other melee units now)
I meant sales of the (far) future stand alone Heavy Intercessors box, not the KT one.
When they are released people will already have plenty from KT and they aren't must take.
Its just really strange that they designed four different types of launcher for this one kit, then shrugged and went... nah. Just bodge two missiles on there, its fine.
The even-more-meltier multimelta is just as odd from a rules perspective. Lets just randomly throw another new profile in the book for this one vehicle. The model designers really felt it needed that extra shot, so into the _five and half_ solid pages of weapon profiles it goes.
That's primaris marine design ethos weapon profiles for weapon profile god.
Anyone know if there will be any DA specific models included in release?
It appears not. I kind of thought they would put either Lazarus (since he can also be built as a generic DA captain) or the DA Lieutenant in the Combat Patrol box, but they chose to put a Chappy in instead.
Thought they would have at least done Azrael, couple of others also begging for resculpt.
Anyone think the Lion will be arriving anytime soon? With Bobby hitting the scene the Lion seems a very reasonable choice for the next returning Primarch.
I don't know, I used to think they'd add another loyalist Big Man but it feels like they just don't give much of a crap anymore. They've had a long time to plop another one down. That said now that I've said that they may announce one just to make me a liar, so maybe you'll all be in luck soon.
Anyone know if there will be any DA specific models included in release?
It appears not. I kind of thought they would put either Lazarus (since he can also be built as a generic DA captain) or the DA Lieutenant in the Combat Patrol box, but they chose to put a Chappy in instead.
Thought they would have at least done Azrael, couple of others also begging for resculpt.
Anyone think the Lion will be arriving anytime soon? With Bobby hitting the scene the Lion seems a very reasonable choice for the next returning Primarch.
Yeah I don't understand why they made a brand new character for Lazarus rather than updating one of the ancient character models like they did with Mephiston, Tigurius, & Khan. Most of them are from the original Angels of Death codex in 2E.
"Buried deep inside the last bedrock of old Caliban is the greatest of all the Dark Angels’ secrets. Hidden in the innermost chamber that is unreachable by all save the cryptic Watchers in the Dark, Lion El’Jonson slumbers. His wounds long healed, he awaits a time when he is most needed, when the clarion call of battle summons him to once more lead his sons to defend the Imperium of Mankind."
The Lion will come eventually, although now we're almost certainly looking at 10E or later. I wonder if they're waiting to make a big themed release around Dark Angels versus Fallen Chaos Marines, perhaps as a campaign box or edition starter set.
I'm glad we finally have a date for the Storm Speeder, the only 40K vehicle capable of removing its users' eardrums. Some days I still feel compelled to get one so I can convert the guy in the gunner seat into a Noise Marine.
Anyone know if there will be any DA specific models included in release?
It appears not. I kind of thought they would put either Lazarus (since he can also be built as a generic DA captain) or the DA Lieutenant in the Combat Patrol box, but they chose to put a Chappy in instead.
Thought they would have at least done Azrael, couple of others also begging for resculpt.
Anyone think the Lion will be arriving anytime soon? With Bobby hitting the scene the Lion seems a very reasonable choice for the next returning Primarch.
Yeah I don't understand why they made a brand new character for Lazarus rather than updating one of the ancient character models like they did with Mephiston, Tigurius, & Khan. Most of them are from the original Angels of Death codex in 2E.
"Buried deep inside the last bedrock of old Caliban is the greatest of all the Dark Angels’ secrets. Hidden in the innermost chamber that is unreachable by all save the cryptic Watchers in the Dark, Lion El’Jonson slumbers. His wounds long healed, he awaits a time when he is most needed, when the clarion call of battle summons him to once more lead his sons to defend the Imperium of Mankind."
The Lion will come eventually, although now we're almost certainly looking at 10E or later. I wonder if they're waiting to make a big themed release around Dark Angels versus Fallen Chaos Marines, perhaps as a campaign box or edition starter set.
I don't think the Fallen or actually DA's are a big enough faction to make a dedicated box edition (again - Dark Vengeance). I also think GW has learnt it's lesson finally by no longer going down the route of chapter specific box sets, not including Death watch and other niche chapters or super popular ones like SW. However, the advantage they do have now is they can just include transfers or upgrade sets if they do really want a chapter specific box set without invalidating many players that would just want the generic models for their own chapter factions.
I think the Lion will come after the third daemon primarch, and potentially with Russ. I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if it was in the fashion of Bobby G's release where it was more of a release for all imperium factions in a Triumvirate style set as opposed to being released as a purely DA/SW release.
Speculation anyway. I'm still holding out that the DA's may get a specific primaris unit of some sort like BA and SW, be it an outrider squad with ravening upgrade sprue, or bladeguards with DA sprue and a custom datasheet - Bladeguard monster hunters, or outrider knights etc. My theory for the Deathwing Strike master will actually be some form of bladeguard lieutenant. We shall see.
xttz wrote: Yeah I don't understand why they made a brand new character for Lazarus rather than updating one of the ancient character models like they did with Mephiston, Tigurius, & Khan. Most of them are from the original Angels of Death codex in 2E.
"Buried deep inside the last bedrock of old Caliban is the greatest of all the Dark Angels’ secrets. Hidden in the innermost chamber that is unreachable by all save the cryptic Watchers in the Dark, Lion El’Jonson slumbers. His wounds long healed, he awaits a time when he is most needed, when the clarion call of battle summons him to once more lead his sons to defend the Imperium of Mankind."
The Lion will come eventually, although now we're almost certainly looking at 10E or later. I wonder if they're waiting to make a big themed release around Dark Angels versus Fallen Chaos Marines, perhaps as a campaign box or edition starter set.
My own theory is that GW intended Lazarus to be the basis for a primaris-scale Azrael conversion, for players who wanted that option. He has the same basic kit (sword, custom rifle, winged helmet) and the usual DA robes and iconography. From their perspective, that may take the urgency out of replacing Az himself.
I'm sure we'll get an Azrael resculpt eventually, but at this point probably not until the next codex.
I agree with you on the Lion - they're saving him for something big, but who knows what.
xttz wrote: Yeah I don't understand why they made a brand new character for Lazarus rather than updating one of the ancient character models like they did with Mephiston, Tigurius, & Khan. Most of them are from the original Angels of Death codex in 2E.
"Buried deep inside the last bedrock of old Caliban is the greatest of all the Dark Angels’ secrets. Hidden in the innermost chamber that is unreachable by all save the cryptic Watchers in the Dark, Lion El’Jonson slumbers. His wounds long healed, he awaits a time when he is most needed, when the clarion call of battle summons him to once more lead his sons to defend the Imperium of Mankind."
The Lion will come eventually, although now we're almost certainly looking at 10E or later. I wonder if they're waiting to make a big themed release around Dark Angels versus Fallen Chaos Marines, perhaps as a campaign box or edition starter set.
My own theory is that GW intended Lazarus to be the basis for a primaris-scale Azrael conversion, for players who wanted that option. He has the same basic kit (sword, custom rifle, winged helmet) and the usual DA robes and iconography. From their perspective, that may take the urgency out of replacing Az himself.
I'm sure we'll get an Azrael resculpt eventually, but at this point probably not until the next codex.
I agree with you on the Lion - they're saving him for something big, but who knows what.
Not quite the right gun for AZ, his lions wrath combi weapon is fairly iconic to him, just as much as the sword of secrets or lion helm. However, I do think you may be partially right, in the sense that he may have started out as an AZ re-sculpt and then was changed to Lazarus for some reason.
I feel like warhammer is entering another bloated and overwhelming era of obnoxiousness.
It needs to reign in quite a bit and chill the hell out haha. If you’re not instantly obliterating something, you’re stopping it from doing anything it wants to.
If 9th continues like this I may need to take a break and focus on Legion for a while.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
so it is vox scream, except it's a psy power, has more reach, has a cheaper pricetag, has no CP cost and actively screws over auras like the new DG stuff but also GSC things etc...
Spoiler:
what was the joke? "and they shall know no unfavourable rules?"
It's one psychic power that works on one unit, it isn't that game breaking. In the case of the DG you could just double up with morty and the miasmic malignifier, you can't turn both -1 T off, though, the ability to turn off Mortys movement nerfing is good.
It's good hard counters to hard counters, it's fine really and makes gameplay more tactical than point and delete. DG will be looking at ways to snipe/negate the librarian and it is just a librarian casting this remember, not the hardest thing to counter psychic powers, especially in a fairly heavy psychic army like DG. On the other hand, the DA will be looking at ways to ensure the librarian survives and succeeds.
Anything that brings more diversity to the game model and build wise as well, librarians aren't really seen as vital to most marine builds currently, this changes that for at least the DA, which means we will see different marine looking armies rather than the same units in different coloured power armour.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
WC7 and no compared leadership test? Sounds pretty easy.
Downright hateful against armies that don't have psykers/psychic defense.
Sigh. Immediate rules question on Engulfing Fear: do you compare the psychic test to the leadership characteristic before or after engulfing fear modifies it to see if the target can perform actions?
And, oh good. They get a multipart special snowflake doctrine.
So dark angels have two different stratagems to represent the same fluff idea of a fighting retreat, that's odd.
But yeah in general DA seem to be "older edition Eldar/Tau Marines" in the way that they're all about turning off the gak you bought and paid points for. That's always fun to play against.
Tiberius501 wrote: I feel like warhammer is entering another bloated and overwhelming era of obnoxiousness.
It needs to reign in quite a bit and chill the hell out haha. If you’re not instantly obliterating something, you’re stopping it from doing anything it wants to.
If 9th continues like this I may need to take a break and focus on Legion for a while.
I have been focusing painting away from 40k as the extreme rules and power creep is getting bit old.
The Combat Patrol is tempting. I really only want the Redemptor that can't be found anywhere right now, but I've been weighing the idea of more Inceptors. Not a bad value at all. Wish this had been the DW box.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
so it is vox scream, except it's a psy power, has more reach, has a cheaper pricetag, has no CP cost and actively screws over auras like the new DG stuff but also GSC things etc...
Spoiler:
what was the joke? "and they shall know no unfavourable rules?"
Vox scream is automatic, close to unblockable, has the same range and turns off ALL aura abilities, this turns off ONE aura ability.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It's one psychic power that works on one unit, it isn't that game breaking. In the case of the DG you could just double up with morty and the miasmic malignifier, you can't turn both -1 T off, though, the ability to turn off Mortys movement nerfing is good.
Movement nerfing is a contagion as well. The two aura he has is the chaos lord re-rolls and the no-rerolls-aura from one of his warlord traits.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
so it is vox scream, except it's a psy power, has more reach, has a cheaper pricetag, has no CP cost and actively screws over auras like the new DG stuff but also GSC things etc...
Spoiler:
what was the joke? "and they shall know no unfavourable rules?"
Vox scream is automatic, close to unblockable, has the same range and turns off ALL aura abilities, this turns off ONE aura ability.
And Vox Scream works from ANY Night Lords unit, not just psykers. The Eighth Legion is still better at shutting down auras.
It's the idea of DA infantry shooting everthying into melee that seems ridiculous. Aggressors and eradicators will be dangerous to charge, especially with the strategem that prevents models not in the first rank from fighting.
What will make this even more horrendous is that if they were already in combat then they wouldn’t count as moving and would get the +1 to hit from their chapter tactic
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
so it is vox scream, except it's a psy power, has more reach, has a cheaper pricetag, has no CP cost and actively screws over auras like the new DG stuff but also GSC things etc...
Spoiler:
what was the joke? "and they shall know no unfavourable rules?"
Vox scream is automatic, close to unblockable, has the same range and turns off ALL aura abilities, this turns off ONE aura ability.
So what , it's the encroaching on other factions that's really annoying, that and the fact there's no cp tax associated with it.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
so it is vox scream, except it's a psy power, has more reach, has a cheaper pricetag, has no CP cost and actively screws over auras like the new DG stuff but also GSC things etc...
Spoiler:
what was the joke? "and they shall know no unfavourable rules?"
Vox scream is automatic, close to unblockable, has the same range and turns off ALL aura abilities, this turns off ONE aura ability.
So what , it's the encroaching on other factions that's really annoying, that and the fact there's no cp tax associated with it.
And you can only target one model with it per turn, and it fails a good 40% of the time, and you need an HQ model within spitting distance of theirs.
It's not all bad, points are still a thing. To use this effectively, DA players will be giving up Ravenwing and Deathwing goodness. It is good, but you are giving up solid DA characters elsewhere. Best to wait and see the whole picture.
Sasori wrote: I think this is fine tbh. It's a psychic power, so can be denied and has a decent chance to fail with no casting bonus.
Ezekiel does have +1 to cast Interromancy
Which will cost more points but he will also suffer from the affliction most librarians have, especially SC ones, they're usually quite squishy with no amazing ways to upgrade their durability.
Sasori wrote: I think this is fine tbh. It's a psychic power, so can be denied and has a decent chance to fail with no casting bonus.
Ezekiel does have +1 to cast Interromancy
Which will cost more points but he will also suffer from the affliction most librarians have, especially SC ones, they're usually quite squishy with no amazing ways to upgrade their durability.
Usually the case, but zeke does have a 4+ invuln and is Inner Circle. A decent Librarian overall.
Sasori wrote: I think this is fine tbh. It's a psychic power, so can be denied and has a decent chance to fail with no casting bonus.
Ezekiel does have +1 to cast Interromancy
Which will cost more points but he will also suffer from the affliction most librarians have, especially SC ones, they're usually quite squishy with no amazing ways to upgrade their durability.
Usually the case, but zeke does have a 4+ invuln and is Inner Circle. A decent Librarian overall.
He has a 4++? I missed that, though, I haven't looked at running him for ages. And correct, assuming all inner circle do in fact get auto transhuman he may be quite tough, especially with a DWK or just DW bodyguard of some sort to soak damage/screen.
It's not super powerful, but it's pretty boring game design to have a power that just negates the cool stuff your enemy can do. Fine for a super tactical and fast card game or something, but not much fun for a game that might take a couple of hours and where your cool dude with the cool powers might have taken another 20 hours to paint up.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
Morty only has 3 auras. Contagions are specifically unaffected by things that shut down aura abilities per the DG codex.
Side note, can someone explain how that Crozius relic works? The rules of that seem pure GW. I cannot make head nor tail of it. It reads to me, if you roll a 4+ to wound and instead of them making saves they just take two MWs instead. Or are the MWs in addition to whatever damage?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
Morty only has 3 auras. Contagions are specifically unaffected by things that shut down aura abilities per the DG codex.
Side note, can someone explain how that Crozius relic works? The rules of that seem pure GW. I cannot make head nor tail of it. It reads to me, if you roll a 4+ to wound and instead of them making saves they just take two MWs instead. Or are the MWs in addition to whatever damage?
The attack ends, and you just deal 2 mortal wounds instead. You then move on to the next attack in line (as the RAW don't really account for fast rolling being a thing).
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
Morty only has 3 auras. Contagions are specifically unaffected by things that shut down aura abilities per the DG codex.
Side note, can someone explain how that Crozius relic works? The rules of that seem pure GW. I cannot make head nor tail of it. It reads to me, if you roll a 4+ to wound and instead of them making saves they just take two MWs instead. Or are the MWs in addition to whatever damage?
The attack ends, and you just deal 2 mortal wounds instead. You then move on to the next attack in line (as the RAW don't really account for fast rolling being a thing).
So that thing hands out MWs like sweeties...
Oh lovely. My main opponent has DAs and my main army is DG. Yay!
Ian Sturrock wrote: It's not super powerful, but it's pretty boring game design to have a power that just negates the cool stuff your enemy can do. Fine for a super tactical and fast card game or something, but not much fun for a game that might take a couple of hours and where your cool dude with the cool powers might have taken another 20 hours to paint up.
So what are your thoughts on DG rules that effectively turn off durability for certain units, or negate movement so much to the point it makes it almost pointless? Is it because you perceive it as cool as the user of said powers that it is okay even though it stops my army from functioning in the cool way it should?
I'll wait for the RW and DW before making an assessment... Right now, DA seems a little boring. I like the control abilities, but we'll see how boring and gunliney they really are
So what are your thoughts on DG rules that effectively turn off durability for certain units, or negate movement so much to the point it makes it almost pointless? Is it because you perceive it as cool as the user of said powers that it is okay even though it stops my army from functioning in the cool way it should?
To be honest? Not a huge fan of anything that halves enemy movement, as that makes the game less dynamic and thus less interesting, too. BUT durability is not a "cool" power, in a wargame that's about killing your enemy.
And FWIW I've fielded Dark Angels WAY more times than I have DG, and have a much bigger DA collection. It's not about who owns which army, it's about principles of good design (though I kind of despair of seeing much of that from GW's game designers).
endlesswaltz123 wrote: And all of a sudden, Mortarion with all his nerfing auras is not so bad...
Probably far easier said than done tbh though.
Morty only has 3 auras. Contagions are specifically unaffected by things that shut down aura abilities per the DG codex.
Side note, can someone explain how that Crozius relic works? The rules of that seem pure GW. I cannot make head nor tail of it. It reads to me, if you roll a 4+ to wound and instead of them making saves they just take two MWs instead. Or are the MWs in addition to whatever damage?
The attack ends, and you just deal 2 mortal wounds instead. You then move on to the next attack in line (as the RAW don't really account for fast rolling being a thing).
So that thing hands out MWs like sweeties...
Oh lovely. My main opponent has DAs and my main army is DG. Yay!
Well, there are plenty of weapons in the game that already work that way, the reason why you probably haven't noticed is because the mechanic isn't actually that great. It's essentially just a fancy way of saying "ignore saves and excess damage is not lost".
The mortal wounds only work on Fallen and Heretic astartes also, making it fairly niche, great against DG but otherwise meh. Good relic upgrade against them, but you're left with just a power maul or crozius when not playing them with a small buff that isn't worth spending your relic on.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The mortal wounds only work on Fallen and Heretic astartes also, making it fairly niche, great against DG but otherwise meh. Good relic upgrade against them, but you're left with just a power maul or crozius when not playing them with a small buff that isn't worth spending your relic on.
I mean, if you use the relic instead of a normal power maul or Crozius, you're still effectively upgrading to a power fist without the accuracy penalty, so it'll be helpful against high T opponents regardless.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The mortal wounds only work on Fallen and Heretic astartes also, making it fairly niche, great against DG but otherwise meh. Good relic upgrade against them, but you're left with just a power maul or crozius when not playing them with a small buff that isn't worth spending your relic on.
Which since you choose relics list making turns relic into useless unless meta becomes like 90% heretic astartes.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The mortal wounds only work on Fallen and Heretic astartes also, making it fairly niche, great against DG but otherwise meh. Good relic upgrade against them, but you're left with just a power maul or crozius when not playing them with a small buff that isn't worth spending your relic on.
I mean, if you use the relic instead of a normal power maul or Crozius, you're still effectively upgrading to a power fist without the accuracy penalty, so it'll be helpful against high T opponents regardless.
I'd personally prefer a heaven fell blade in such a circumstance but that is personal preference. Obviously if I'm only take a chaplain, your point may have some relevance.
I like the psychic powers as a tactical asset in game, really useful utility tool. As for the fire discipline, I was not expecting the change of the super doctrine, perhaps something simple would have been welcome. The 5+ to hit when firing into close combat should definately been a tau-thing.
I don't have the necron codex, but will mind wipe be able to nerf some of the RP buffs of certain units? Also, is my will be done an aura ability or a buff?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I don't have the necron codex, but will mind wipe be able to nerf some of the RP buffs of certain units? Also, is my will be done an aura ability or a buff?
Aura: A rule that is classified as an aura can affect multiple models or units that meet its criteria and are within a set distance of the model it is on (including that model itself).
My Will Be Done only affects a single unit, so it's not an aura. In 9E codexes those abilities are labelled with (Aura), like Relentless March.
Spreelock wrote: I like the psychic powers as a tactical asset in game, really useful utility tool. As for the fire discipline, I was not expecting the change of the super doctrine, perhaps something simple would have been welcome. The 5+ to hit when firing into close combat should definately been a tau-thing.
From the teaser article yesterday the footnoot implies that the Superdoctrine will change as the Doctrine in effect changes. The one teased yesterday is in effect when the Tactical Doctrine is in effect, so it is likely that there will be aspects for the Devastator and Assault Doctrines. This is positive, since the original DA one was made pretty much irrelevant when they changed how Doctrines work.
The box with the dread seems one I could go for since it complements more my force than the previous ones.
As for the storm speeder I would love to strip the top and convert to add a unit of reivers dropping down in dynamic poses. Not its purpose but thats how I see them.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The mortal wounds only work on Fallen and Heretic astartes also, making it fairly niche, great against DG but otherwise meh. Good relic upgrade against them, but you're left with just a power maul or crozius when not playing them with a small buff that isn't worth spending your relic on.
Which since you choose relics list making turns relic into useless unless meta becomes like 90% heretic astartes.
I mean it basically gives a Smashplain a Power Fist without the hit penalty. There's SOME value to that but not a lot compared to the regular Crozius relic they can get.
NAVARRO wrote: The box with the dread seems one I could go for since it complements more my force than the previous ones.
As for the storm speeder I would love to strip the top and convert to add a unit of reivers dropping down in dynamic poses. Not its purpose but thats how I see them.
That's a solid enough combat patrol if you can get it at a discount, and sell of the upgrade sprue to someone that wants them. I don't have one of the new dreads yet and I could always add another three inceptors.
Does anyone know if the Inceptors and Dread are ETB kits? The intercessors don't look like ETB ones or Dark Imperium ones as these have autobolters.
The ETB Dreadnought only has the Onslaught Gatling Cannon, while the picture for the Combat Patrol has the Plasma. From that I deduce that the Combat Patrol box has the multi-part Redemptor. The Intercessors in the photo are the ones from the multi-part kit. The Inceptors look like the multi-part kit as well, but I'm not sure on them.
I can at least see uses for all the stratagems shown so far, unlike the last codex where everything was page filler around WftDA and a couple others. Greenwing seem to be shaping up as an anvil, while Deathwing & Ravenwing will probably be the hammer.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wonder if the book will let you run Ravenwing or Deathwing armies without the need for regular DA Marines?
Well in a technical kinda of way you can. It just costs a lot of CP, No ObSec and a generally poorly constructed list. You just take either a Vanguard or Outrider Detachments instead of Patrol or Battalion. This big issue is I don't see that working out well for a bunch of reasons on how 9th ed works.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wonder if the book will let you run Ravenwing or Deathwing armies without the need for regular DA Marines?
Well in a technical kinda of way you can. It just costs a lot of CP, No ObSec and a generally poorly constructed list. You just take either a Vanguard or Outrider Detachments instead of Patrol or Battalion. This big issue is I don't see that working out well for a bunch of reasons on how 9th ed works.
Using the 9th Ed Index you can absolutely rock a Deathwing army.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wonder if the book will let you run Ravenwing or Deathwing armies without the need for regular DA Marines?
Well in a technical kinda of way you can. It just costs a lot of CP, No ObSec and a generally poorly constructed list. You just take either a Vanguard or Outrider Detachments instead of Patrol or Battalion. This big issue is I don't see that working out well for a bunch of reasons on how 9th ed works.
Using the 9th Ed Index you can absolutely rock a Deathwing army.
My concern is how well does that Deathwing armies work in the context of what 9th ed wants armies to do to win. I have no doubts that a Deathwing army can kill, but that isn't really how I have seen 9th ed working. My concerns are that Deathwing are too slow without Land Raiders and don't have enough assets with Land Raiders. I think they will also suffer with even more with Primaries not having Obsec in addition to being slow. However, I don't know all the ins-and-outs of both Dark Angels and 9th ed to have more than concerns.
So I think it is easy enough to go double Vanguard Detachments (maybe even a single Vanguard) to have an all Deathwing army. I have concerns that the army will be missing critical components to accomplish what 9th edition asks of it.
alextroy wrote: I can't image they would add a rule preventing it.
Unless I'm missing something, they can't currently do that, so they wouldn't need to prevent it.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wonder if the book will let you run Ravenwing or Deathwing armies without the need for regular DA Marines?
Well in a technical kinda of way you can. It just costs a lot of CP, No ObSec and a generally poorly constructed list. You just take either a Vanguard or Outrider Detachments instead of Patrol or Battalion. This big issue is I don't see that working out well for a bunch of reasons on how 9th ed works.
Nothing kinda technical about it. You could absolutely run a Ravenwing (Outrider Detachment) or Deathwing (Vanguard Detachment) army in with the 8th Edition Dark Angels Codex or the 9th Edition Index Dark Angels. If you are hoping for some magic rule that give you a CP refund like you would get for a Patrol/Battalion/Brigade, I wouldn't hold your breath. The only armies to get such a thing are the Knights and Drukari. I expect they will do Drukari differently in 9th Edition given the hard cap on detachments.
xttz wrote: I doubt they are, the other Combat Patrol boxes are all full multipart kits and ETB kits have been discontinued
Thanks, I thought they might keep the ETBs or Dark Imperium sprues for combat patrols like it appears they're doing for the Death Guard release.
They aren’t the ETB Plague Marines in the combat patrol it’s the normal kit.
Unless you mean the Poxwalkers? But that’s not their ETB kit either, though it is the monopose ones that were in DI.
But bear in mind that’s just a normal on sale kit now.
Latest preview is up focussing on the Ravenwing...
In a first for a Space Marine Chapter, their special bonus to the Combat Doctrines ability is split into three parts that take effect in different turns.
Stratagems
Fans of the classic Jink rule will be happy to know that it’s still alive and well among the 2nd Company’s forces, but if you can’t afford to Advance for that delicious 4+ invulnerable save it’s good to know High-Speed Focus has your back in a pinch. Trust the master movers of the Ravenwing to dodge enemy fire even when they’re standing still.
Stands to reason that the Deathwing will have something similar, and that might also explain why they were specifically excluded from the general Dark Angel super doctrine.
Stands to reason that the Deathwing will have something similar, and that might also explain why they were specifically excluded from the general Dark Angel super doctrine.
Anyone can make a post then go back and edit it to look like they did it first... Ah well I'm not fussed, be interesting to see if the Deathwing get some variation dependent on combat doctrine in play like the ravenwing.
Also, super interested in what the ravenwings tactical and assault buff will be (if there is one)
Interesting that you can advance (and gain jink 4++) and still fire as if assault in the Dev doctrine... That seems very powerful for first turn board control.
I may have misinterpreted that the ravenwing would get a different bonus in tac and assault as well, however it makes more sense than ravenwing get dev, greewning tactical and deathwing assault like you say.
It might be a nice army philosophy, style of play.
Ravenwing rush and grab objectives first turn, greewning arrive in tactical to secure and hold the objective line, deathwing arrive in the assault to counter any taken objectives and retake them... It synergises nicely
Stands to reason that the Deathwing will have something similar, and that might also explain why they were specifically excluded from the general Dark Angel super doctrine.
Anyone can make a post then go back and edit it to look like they did it first... Ah well I'm not fussed, be interesting to see if the Deathwing get some variation dependent on combat doctrine in play like the ravenwing.
Also, super interested in what the ravenwings tactical and assault buff will be.
Interesting that you can advance (and gain jink 4++) and still fire as if assault in the Dev doctrine... That seems very powerful for first turn board control.
I would assume that “Greenwing” get a tactical buff, ravenwing get devastator buff and death wing get an assault buff
Really hope we'll still have a decent way for transports (especially Impulsors, rather than just Land Raiders) to get the Deathwing keyword. My 1st company boys have sat on the shelf for years waiting to be fielded as a proper army. Almost time now...
Also, super interested in what the ravenwings tactical and assault buff will be.
Nothing. They said the ability was split into three parts and we've seen two of them. The third part will almost certainly be a benefit to Deathwing during the Assault doctrine.
Alright, I feel a whole more confident that Ravenwing and Deathwing can play 9th ed from this reveal. The Dark Angel supplement obviously considered how 9th them and gave them tools to play the objective game.
In fact, I am starting to be impressed with the overall quality of the new codices and supplments. They seem to give the factions the elements to play more like I would think the faction would. While not being obviously more unbalanced that usual for GW. I hope the trend continues. I am now very interested to see how the Dark Eldar come out, and if they can also be given the tools to play much more like one would think. They are primed to do well as 9th values speed.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Alright, I feel a whole more confident that Ravenwing and Deathwing can play 9th ed from this reveal. The Dark Angel supplement obviously considered how 9th them and gave them tools to play the objective game.
In fact, I am starting to be impressed with the overall quality of the new codices and supplments. They seem to give the factions the elements to play more like I would think the faction would. While not being obviously more unbalanced that usual for GW. I hope the trend continues. I am now very interested to see how the Dark Eldar come out, and if they can also be given the tools to play much more like one would think. They are primed to do well as 9th values speed.
They already hinted it would be easier to mix and match the three sub factions of dark eldar. So I am very excited to see how they will do that seeing these ravenwing rules.
I am also very much hoping more factions get this kind of specific army building buff (for example Wraith Host in craft worlds).
It seems that they toned down a bit the 'high speed focus', correct me if i'm wrong, but it used to affect any ravenwing unit, and now only a ravenwing vehicle unit.
Spreelock wrote: It seems that they toned down a bit the 'high speed focus', correct me if i'm wrong, but it used to affect any ravenwing unit, and now only a ravenwing vehicle unit.
The index only had a limited number of stratagems. I assume now there will be a wider range of strats that will specifically buff Bikers, but GW didn't want them to stack with High Speed Focus.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Alright, I feel a whole more confident that Ravenwing and Deathwing can play 9th ed from this reveal. The Dark Angel supplement obviously considered how 9th them and gave them tools to play the objective game.
In fact, I am starting to be impressed with the overall quality of the new codices and supplments. They seem to give the factions the elements to play more like I would think the faction would. While not being obviously more unbalanced that usual for GW. I hope the trend continues. I am now very interested to see how the Dark Eldar come out, and if they can also be given the tools to play much more like one would think. They are primed to do well as 9th values speed.
They already hinted it would be easier to mix and match the three sub factions of dark eldar. So I am very excited to see how they will do that seeing these ravenwing rules.
It could easily be done with another 3-part armywide ability, and a way to get free warlord traits for each sub-faction. There isn't really any need for them to take split detachments now that they're usually limited.
Spreelock wrote: It seems that they toned down a bit the 'high speed focus', correct me if i'm wrong, but it used to affect any ravenwing unit, and now only a ravenwing vehicle unit.
Looks like it is there to help Landspeeders and Aircraft who might not otherwise be able to use some of the other Ravenwing buffs? Hard to tell without the full reveal.
Very keen to see what happens to Inner Circle! And a little worried...
How tall are the deathwing Knights as far as sculpts go? Do they look tiny next to primaris or are they some of the taller terminator sculpts GW have made?
I remember them as fairly standard, to the point of swappable with the standard kit so you can spread some monastic hoods and cloth bits around.
Only terminators that might be slightly taller than standard that I can think of are custards and the new chaos termies, but I'm not sure on the latter
Abaddon303 wrote: How tall are the deathwing Knights as far as sculpts go? Do they look tiny next to primaris or are they some of the taller terminator sculpts GW have made?
tneva82 wrote: Would be odd to give if you don't intend it to be on codex.
The BA index had a relic Crozius Arcanum which moved to Crusade rules for the actual release. The current Inner Circle is not safe from a similar fate.
Abaddon303 wrote: How tall are the deathwing Knights as far as sculpts go? Do they look tiny next to primaris or are they some of the taller terminator sculpts GW have made?
The advantage of the deathwing terminator kits is that the legs and torso are separate, so that is one easy play to include green stuff to up their size (this is my idea at least).
It looks like a a 8 year old let loose with photoshop for the first time..
They couldn't even be bothered to actually get those three models onto the same board and take a pic... Dunno what it is but it just jarrs the hell out of me.
Argive wrote: Anyone else noticed the absolute terrible pic?
It looks like a a 8 year old let loose with photoshop for the first time..
Spoiler:
They couldn't even be bothered to actually get those three models onto the same board and take a pic...
Dunno what it is but it just jarrs the hell out of me.
I think its a couple things:
The old DA speeder looks washed out, like its an old pic and the new stuff was just dropped in with no color matching or even orienting them on the surfaces.
The new stuff, as usual, has excessively egregious 'edge highlighting,' to the point that every single edge was blocked out in pure white. The narrow 'diagonal' panels on the speeder look like striker strips from a matchbox, I can't tell if they were solid white and they did a single rough coat rather than the deep black everywhere else, or if its the lighting, but they look awful and rough, and a lot of the white lines are crooked
Whoever did the old speeder actually knew how to paint and contrast black properly, and went for a decent battle damage effect rather than 'chalk outlines on a blackboard'
The buggy is very photoshopped in. Not in a minimal effort was taken to place it on the terrain. That's probably also true of the new speeder, but since the base is out of frame, it doesn't matter as much. But its also zoomed and placed in a way that's eyegouging.
And the primaris stuff is also on top of the vague smoke effect, which makes them even less a part of the same picture.
--
The picture with the Outriders has similar problems, but its less noticeable. You can see that the older bikes in the background are physically on the terrain
Oddly enough the Outriders all have spots red at the right edges of their tires, including the armor plate that covers the hubcap on the first one.- Either/Or may be right, the colors are photoshopped.
Hopefully all of the artwork is like this.....the rage would be intense. I mean, it would have looked normal with the goofy UM, but not the boys in black.
Stands to reason that the Deathwing will have something similar, and that might also explain why they were specifically excluded from the general Dark Angel super doctrine.
Anyone can make a post then go back and edit it to look like they did it first...
Sorry, the juvenile d*ck measuring posts belong in the Space Wolf thread, not here.
Argive wrote: Anyone else noticed the absolute terrible pic?
It looks like a a 8 year old let loose with photoshop for the first time..
Spoiler:
They couldn't even be bothered to actually get those three models onto the same board and take a pic...
Dunno what it is but it just jarrs the hell out of me.
I can't help but notice that the compressed ATV looks far cooler than the physical model. How embarrassing.
Argive wrote: Anyone else noticed the absolute terrible pic?
It looks like a a 8 year old let loose with photoshop for the first time..
They couldn't even be bothered to actually get those three models onto the same board and take a pic...
Dunno what it is but it just jarrs the hell out of me.
Or... what if the studio don't have a full Primaris Ravenwing collection and/or the photo was needed during peak lockdown? If these photos show up in the supplement then there's a decent chance they were needed last Spring when non-essential businesses were closed and GW were protecting their staff.
Wouldn't it be better to ask a staff member with Dark Angels to photo some of their collection, rather than to ask someone to break social distancing rules for a couple of marketing photos?
Doohicky wrote: Do people think the inner circle will keep the always on transhuman?
It could be the third part of the DA combat doctrine. Deathwing Terminators / Inner Circle get the transhuman rule while assault doctrine is active.
Strangely the article doesn't mention the assault doctrine, or explicitly confirm the Inner Circle rule is unchanged. However the latter is strongly implied as using Rites of Initiation will make a captain "even more durable"
Couple of key points:
1. I love how absurdly specific the requirements are for a Lieutenant to get the upgrade. Probably has nothing to do with the new one they released and want you to get. Nope, not at all.
2. They specifically mention at the end that you should use it if you want to make your Primaris Captain even more durable. So Deathwing are probably keeping their wounded only on a 4+ rule. This makes them harder to wound with a Lascannon than Iron Hands and Death Guard Terminators, even though Dark Angels aren't even KNOWN for durability. Ya know, for reasons.
Yeah, the lieutenant is hilarious. Don't put down the storm shield, or you get kicked out of Mickey Mouse club. You better sleep with that thing, or they'll take the secrets away.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Couple of key points:
1. I love how absurdly specific the requirements are for a Lieutenant to get the upgrade. Probably has nothing to do with the new one they released and want you to get. Nope, not at all.
.
It's not about buying the new guy, it's simply about allowing those with the Indomitus set using the like-themed models in a unified force. bladeguard and bladeguard ancient already have deathwing keyword. The captain can get the deathwing keyword. It goes to figure that the Lt in the set, that has the same theme, can also have access to the DW keyword (unlike Joe blow Lt in power armour)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Couple of key points:
1. I love how absurdly specific the requirements are for a Lieutenant to get the upgrade. Probably has nothing to do with the new one they released and want you to get. Nope, not at all.
.
It's not about buying the new guy, it's simply about allowing those with the Indomitus set using the like-themed models in a unified force. bladeguard and bladeguard ancient already have deathwing keyword. The captain can get the deathwing keyword. It goes to figure that the Lt in the set, that has the same theme, can also have access to the DW keyword (unlike Joe blow Lt in power armour)
They didn't have to be quite so specific though, did they?
I mean, they could have left the requirements open so that converted lieutenants could get the upgrade, while still allowing folks to use the lieutenant from Indomitus.
The growing restrictions on unit options is a pretty saddening trend in my opinion. I liked the old days when I could mix and match across the space marine units.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Couple of key points:
1. I love how absurdly specific the requirements are for a Lieutenant to get the upgrade. Probably has nothing to do with the new one they released and want you to get. Nope, not at all.
.
It's not about buying the new guy, it's simply about allowing those with the Indomitus set using the like-themed models in a unified force. bladeguard and bladeguard ancient already have deathwing keyword. The captain can get the deathwing keyword. It goes to figure that the Lt in the set, that has the same theme, can also have access to the DW keyword (unlike Joe blow Lt in power armour)
It absolutely IS about buying the new guy that officially has the Storm Shield. You're not serious are you?
I can partly see the understanding of it, the bladeguard lieutenant is officially the only first company lieutenant model (or it is meant to be that way in theory at least, I know keywords may not state that).
They don't want phobos lieutenants becoming deathwing, and officially standard intercessor vibe lieutenants are also not allowed as they don't have Intercessors in the deathwing either.
It's a bit ham fisted how they have gone about it, but like I said, I can sort of see why. Shame you can only have one specific lieutenant in the deathwing though, unless there is an option for a deathwing terminator lieutenant.
At least this restriction has a basis in lore - among Primaris Marines, only Bladeguard are part of the Deathwing/Inner Circle. For firstborn, there's the Deathwing Strikemaster.
Yeah, for all fluff purposes the "Primaris Litenaunt with Stormshield" is exactly the same as "Bladeguard Primaris Lieutenant". And I doubt many people would say that limitation is stupid.
Notice how there is a Deathwing Terminator Squad, Terminator Squad and Terminator Assault squad stated in the 1st company? I wonder if the point cost may be different for the specific DW terminator squad...
Argive wrote: Anyone else noticed the absolute terrible pic?
It looks like a a 8 year old let loose with photoshop for the first time..
They couldn't even be bothered to actually get those three models onto the same board and take a pic...
Dunno what it is but it just jarrs the hell out of me.
There's 2 pictures in that article that are hilariously bad! I don't know what went on there but I want to see them in a book
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Couple of key points:
1. I love how absurdly specific the requirements are for a Lieutenant to get the upgrade. Probably has nothing to do with the new one they released and want you to get. Nope, not at all.
.
It's not about buying the new guy, it's simply about allowing those with the Indomitus set using the like-themed models in a unified force. bladeguard and bladeguard ancient already have deathwing keyword. The captain can get the deathwing keyword. It goes to figure that the Lt in the set, that has the same theme, can also have access to the DW keyword (unlike Joe blow Lt in power armour)
It absolutely IS about buying the new guy that officially has the Storm Shield. You're not serious are you?
You're talking out your arse, mate. I just outlined the reason for you clearly. Bladeguard are new to the ranks of the Deathwing. That specific model is a part of the whole Bladeguard theme, along with the Ancient and Captain. It would have been stranger to not give him the option of Deathwing keyword. They obviously don't want all Lts to be able to be in deathwing (because they're not), and you know GWs schtick is no model, no rules, so conversions are right out.
It's kind of odd that you think it's about buying that model, when you literally can't unless it's ina starter set of some kind.
Argive wrote: Anyone else noticed the absolute terrible pic?
It looks like a a 8 year old let loose with photoshop for the first time..
They couldn't even be bothered to actually get those three models onto the same board and take a pic...
Dunno what it is but it just jarrs the hell out of me.
This is most likely because no one is actually at the GWHQ in the UK. They have been under lockdown for a while now. The guys that typically take army pictures of new products and such probably can't get to the studio to actually get the models and pose them for pictures. So they are left with digital image files of studio painters taking pictures of the models from their homes, and then photo shopping the image. As to the quality of the final image... Not too good. Certainly not worthy of a professional digital artist.
I am more excited than ever for my Dark Angels! They were my first army and these days I've got almost twice as much of them as all my other armies combined. Unlike some of the inevitable "bandwagon" DA players that will be coming out of the woodwork soon, I can say I was playing DA before it was cool.
I'm totally looking forward to running an all-Ravenwing army. I've wanted to for years, but before I didn't have the models, then 8th hit and it was made so that running pure RW would gimp you way too hard. Now, it looks like it's our time to shine!
Davespil wrote: What are the odds that Outriders will become core and I can more than 3?
They are already Core, but you will not be able to have more than 3 since they are not Troops. That won't change as this is a supplement to the codex, not a stand alone. They can get Obsec, but that's about it.
Ok, so for those complaining about Primaris having to have a stormshield I would just like to point out that its possible GW think DW knights (you know, what with them being MASTERS in training and all) are ranked above them? It may be a case of "get used to the wargear you'll be using for a while sort of thing? especially now DWK have a WS of 2+ i think GW see Knights as a select group of lieutenants from which future officers will be recruited?
P.s. It may also be because the DW have such nice rules now (and it seems they want to lean hard into the hard to kill thing) that there has to be some sort of drawback? (OHH woah is me, I am forced to take a stormshield.ooo...)
Davespil wrote: What are the odds that Outriders will become core and I can more than 3?
They are already Core, but you will not be able to have more than 3 since they are not Troops. That won't change as this is a supplement to the codex, not a stand alone. They can get Obsec, but that's about it.
They get Obsec and if your warlord is from the detachment its command benefit is changed to +3, which they added so you could take an outrider detachment as if it were a battalion detachment. So you can take 6 Outrider Squads, but not more than 3 models per unit sadly.
Davespil wrote: What are the odds that Outriders will become core and I can more than 3?
They are already Core, but you will not be able to have more than 3 since they are not Troops. That won't change as this is a supplement to the codex, not a stand alone. They can get Obsec, but that's about it.
They get Obsec and if your warlord is from the detachment its command benefit is changed to +3, which they added so you could take an outrider detachment as if it were a battalion detachment. So you can take 6 Outrider Squads, but not more than 3 models per unit sadly.
Davespil wrote: What are the odds that Outriders will become core and I can more than 3?
They are already Core, but you will not be able to have more than 3 since they are not Troops. That won't change as this is a supplement to the codex, not a stand alone. They can get Obsec, but that's about it.
They get Obsec and if your warlord is from the detachment its command benefit is changed to +3, which they added so you could take an outrider detachment as if it were a battalion detachment. So you can take 6 Outrider Squads, but not more than 3 models per unit sadly.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Couple of key points:
1. I love how absurdly specific the requirements are for a Lieutenant to get the upgrade. Probably has nothing to do with the new one they released and want you to get. Nope, not at all.
.
It's not about buying the new guy, it's simply about allowing those with the Indomitus set using the like-themed models in a unified force. bladeguard and bladeguard ancient already have deathwing keyword. The captain can get the deathwing keyword. It goes to figure that the Lt in the set, that has the same theme, can also have access to the DW keyword (unlike Joe blow Lt in power armour)
It absolutely IS about buying the new guy that officially has the Storm Shield. You're not serious are you?
You're talking out your arse, mate. I just outlined the reason for you clearly. Bladeguard are new to the ranks of the Deathwing. That specific model is a part of the whole Bladeguard theme, along with the Ancient and Captain. It would have been stranger to not give him the option of Deathwing keyword. They obviously don't want all Lts to be able to be in deathwing (because they're not), and you know GWs schtick is no model, no rules, so conversions are right out.
It's kind of odd that you think it's about buying that model, when you literally can't unless it's ina starter set of some kind.
Buying the model = buying the starter set. You can try to get around it all you want, but they want you to get that model in particular if you want certain benefits to playing Deathwing. It's ridiculous and nobody cares about what you say with themes.
Buying the model = buying the starter set. You can try to get around it all you want, but they want you to get that model in particular if you want certain benefits to playing Deathwing. It's ridiculous and nobody cares about what you say with themes.
The storm shield Lieutenant was only in Indomitus, which is discontinued and has been removed from the GW website. retracted, I looked at the other two starter sets
Strange how the rules for the captain don't require a storm shield when one of those models is in the other starter sets. Almost as if this isn't some sneaky conspiracy after all!
Of course a Dark Angels player could just convert one of the many readily available Lieutenant models to use one of the many other easily available space marine storm shields that litter bits boxes across the globe?
While a little clunky, the rule here makes a lot of sense when you consider that without the wargear requirement it would leave the door open for Deathwing Reiver Lieutenants or Deathwing Phobos Lieutenants. That's before you even consider any new models that could very plausibly show up before DA get another book update. Releasing new Lieutenant models is literally a meme at this point, and as cool as it would look I reckon Deathwing Outrider Lieutenants might end up being a little bit broken.
Storm shield Lt and royal warden are in the recruit edition starter, aka the why would you ever buy a box of necron warriors when $5 more gets you the starter box
Buying the model = buying the starter set. You can try to get around it all you want, but they want you to get that model in particular if you want certain benefits to playing Deathwing. It's ridiculous and nobody cares about what you say with themes.
The storm shield Lieutenant was only in Indomitus, which is discontinued and has been removed from the GW website. retracted, I looked at the other two starter sets
Strange how the rules for the captain don't require a storm shield when one of those models is in the other starter sets. Almost as if this isn't some sneaky conspiracy after all!
Of course a Dark Angels player could just convert one of the many readily available Lieutenant models to use one of the many other easily available space marine storm shields that litter bits boxes across the globe?
While a little clunky, the rule here makes a lot of sense when you consider that without the wargear requirement it would leave the door open for Deathwing Reiver Lieutenants or Deathwing Phobos Lieutenants. That's before you even consider any new models that could very plausibly show up before DA get another book update. Releasing new Lieutenant models is literally a meme at this point, and as cool as it would look I reckon Deathwing Outrider Lieutenants might end up being a little bit broken.
And we care about Deathwing keyword Reiver Lieutenants why?
Buying the model = buying the starter set. You can try to get around it all you want, but they want you to get that model in particular if you want certain benefits to playing Deathwing. It's ridiculous and nobody cares about what you say with themes.
The storm shield Lieutenant was only in Indomitus, which is discontinued and has been removed from the GW website. retracted, I looked at the other two starter sets
Strange how the rules for the captain don't require a storm shield when one of those models is in the other starter sets. Almost as if this isn't some sneaky conspiracy after all!
Of course a Dark Angels player could just convert one of the many readily available Lieutenant models to use one of the many other easily available space marine storm shields that litter bits boxes across the globe?
While a little clunky, the rule here makes a lot of sense when you consider that without the wargear requirement it would leave the door open for Deathwing Reiver Lieutenants or Deathwing Phobos Lieutenants. That's before you even consider any new models that could very plausibly show up before DA get another book update. Releasing new Lieutenant models is literally a meme at this point, and as cool as it would look I reckon Deathwing Outrider Lieutenants might end up being a little bit broken.
And we care about Deathwing keyword Reiver Lieutenants why?
Because your position appears to be that the only reason for this rule is to drive someone to purchase a starter set, regardless of other potential reasons.
Reasons such as the thematic one brought up by xttz, where the Bladeguard appear to be the only Primaris who have made it into the Deathwing, so preventing Deathwing upgrades from non-Bladeguard Lt's - such as the Reiver, Phobos and (theoretical) Outrider - mean that the theme is maintained.
I will say that the loadout of the Storm Shield Lt. is a touch restrictive, due to the neo-volkite doohickey, but it would seem fairly simple to convert a power sword Lieutenant (with pistol in holster) by adding a storm shield to the non-sword arm and having the pistol be in the holster. Heck, adding a storm shield to the backpack of the DA Lt. (if you get the upcoming Bladeguard box) is probably close enough, even without swapping the pistol, and that's before we consider using a Deathwing Knight shield. Alternatively, the generic Lt. with power sword would also be a suitable base model, if you (for some reason) didn't want to overdo the robes.
Good. Admech are in a pretty good place at the moment kit-wise with the upcoming Skitarii Tribune/Prime/Alpha. They just need a few tweaks here and there to touch up balance and bring some rules into line with the new paradigm, plus roll in all the Engine War stuff and add Crusade. I'm betting the Imperial Knights will be pulled out of the Admech codex though.
Warzone Charadon was Deathguard, Drukhari, Admech, and Imperial Knights, which fits this. Afterwards, we have previews of Ork and Sisters models, perhaps the start of another warzone.
Davespil wrote: What are the odds that Outriders will become core and I can more than 3?
They are already Core, but you will not be able to have more than 3 since they are not Troops. That won't change as this is a supplement to the codex, not a stand alone. They can get Obsec, but that's about it.
They get Obsec and if your warlord is from the detachment its command benefit is changed to +3, which they added so you could take an outrider detachment as if it were a battalion detachment. So you can take 6 Outrider Squads, but not more than 3 models per unit sadly.
They're talking about the rule of 3.
What if I took a detachment of DA with 3 squads of outriders and took a detachment of White Scars with 3 squads of outriders? Is that possible? So ticked off about the rule of three. I wanna field my biker gang!
Davespil wrote: What if I took a detachment of DA with 3 squads of outriders and took a detachment of White Scars with 3 squads of outriders? Is that possible?
The mere presence of White Scars models in your army would stop you using the DA 2nd Company rule, so no ObSec for your Ravenwing outriders and you'll be down 6CPs.
And it still doesn't get you round the Rule of 3 anyway.
Davespil wrote: What are the odds that Outriders will become core and I can more than 3?
They are already Core, but you will not be able to have more than 3 since they are not Troops. That won't change as this is a supplement to the codex, not a stand alone. They can get Obsec, but that's about it.
They get Obsec and if your warlord is from the detachment its command benefit is changed to +3, which they added so you could take an outrider detachment as if it were a battalion detachment. So you can take 6 Outrider Squads, but not more than 3 models per unit sadly.
They're talking about the rule of 3.
What if I took a detachment of DA with 3 squads of outriders and took a detachment of White Scars with 3 squads of outriders? Is that possible? So ticked off about the rule of three. I wanna field my biker gang!
You want to field a biker gang?
Outriders, Bikers, Scout Bikers and - as I assume they'll be in the DA Supplement - Ravenwing Black Knights, not to mention an assortment of Ravenwing "On Bike" characters. And that's before we touch the Primario Karts and Attack Bikes.
That's 12 units of bikes, plus another 6 of trikes/karts, plus characters. You may even need more than one Outrider detachment, depending on just how many bikes you want to field.
If the problem is not being able to field enough Outriders, a better question is why you can't expand the squad by 3's - it isn't like this is the Holy Hand Grenade, where 4 is a dangerous number, and 5 is right out!
What if I took a detachment of DA with 3 squads of outriders and took a detachment of White Scars with 3 squads of outriders? Is that possible? So ticked off about the rule of three. I wanna field my biker gang!
One effect of 1 book + supplements is this is negated as the chapters share same datasheet. So no. You need to take regular bikes, black knights and scout bikes as well rather than just spam the best one.
Yeah, you will want black knights in there somewhere anyway assuming they are still good.
Just convert some outrider kits into black knights, hellblaster guns and some ravenwing upgrade sprues will work potentially, you'll keep the primaris aesthetic but also have most likely more effective bikes in a squad or two.
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H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm hoping for either Grey Knights or Deathwatch.
Space marine plus lotus blossom, it's going to have some samurai/far east influence I think.
If they do what they should have done all along with the heroes kits, and that is pair them with really amazing and cool custom chapters, we could end up with a samurai chapter. An emperors spears heroes kit would be so bad ass for example.
Alternatively, if they are going to use the first founding chapters, including chaos, they should go to the extreme of those chapters, so BA should have been death company (could have been the ultimate opportunity to do death company terminators), the plague marines should have been one of the custom plague companies with flavour added relating to that. Heck, the ultramarines could have double down on the roman aesthetic with a custom honour guard/company command squad.
"None must know" is equal parts hilarious but also annoying (imo), since 90% of DA stories these days are "we were helping, but suddenly and mysteriously abandoned our allies." How many fallen can there be that every recent battle has them screwing over their allies?
As for the Space Marine Heroes, it does look like they'll be releasing the upcoming season in spring. It would be cool for them to do Deathwatch, and really customize the heroes for the specific chapters. Maybe something like Kill Team Cassius, but in actual Mark 10 armor. I'd even be happy with Deathwatch Primaris, since it would finally feature primaries models that were always intended to be for DW
"None must know" is equal parts hilarious but also annoying (imo), since 90% of DA stories these days are "we were helping, but suddenly and mysteriously abandoned our allies." How many fallen can there be that every recent battle has them screwing over their allies?
As for the Space Marine Heroes, it does look like they'll be releasing the upcoming season in spring. It would be cool for them to do Deathwatch, and really customize the heroes for the specific chapters. Maybe something like Kill Team Cassius, but in actual Mark 10 armor. I'd even be happy with Deathwatch Primaris, since it would finally feature primaries models that were always intended to be for DW
None must know is funny in theory but in practice not likely people trade doctrines/super doctrines and whatever other armies will get so you might end up using this besides for killing enemy.
It's good for crusade. It helps create narratives when DA fight other imperium factions, and also, sometimes you do take stuff to break doctrines if the narrative calls for it.
They also provide a specific example of something you can take that will not break doctrines, which is Inquisitors. And DA killing inquisitors for being nosy is definitely in character.
Lol.
Had to watch that movie a couple of days ago (my teenage lad's birthday choice) and looking back at the silhoutte had me spitting my coffee out in laughter.
Thank you for cheering my day up.
"None must know" is equal parts hilarious but also annoying (imo), since 90% of DA stories these days are "we were helping, but suddenly and mysteriously abandoned our allies." How many fallen can there be that every recent battle has them screwing over their allies?
As for the Space Marine Heroes, it does look like they'll be releasing the upcoming season in spring. It would be cool for them to do Deathwatch, and really customize the heroes for the specific chapters. Maybe something like Kill Team Cassius, but in actual Mark 10 armor. I'd even be happy with Deathwatch Primaris, since it would finally feature primaries models that were always intended to be for DW
It is fluffy actually, because Dark Angels avoid alliances if at all possible, one of the specific reasons to lump it and work with other factions is if they have the chance of getting their sweetest of nectar that is a chance of capturing one of the fallen.
So it's fairly common in terms of stories where they have allies to hear of the nipping off as soon as their objectives are complete or well, leave no witnesses in some instances, but the amount of times they do actually ally is limited and rare.
I had an amusing realisation. A few days ago I was writing a list of new Primaris stuff to buy alongside this release, trying to work out what would be the best option to make legal Battalions again with the loss of Scouts, and work out which other new toys would be useful. At one point the list was over £100, but now it is much shorter and primarily driven just by having something new to paint rather than play games with.
The new detachment rules mean that even after losing my main Troops choice I can still make a viable army using the 2-3k pts worth of Deathwing that have spent most of the last 10 years sitting on a shelf.
It's funny considering how often you see people complaining about GW "forcing" them to buy new models, then they buff models that haven't seen the table outside Space Hulk games.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: I have been completely out of the loop recently, have we had the price leaks on Saturday's releases yet?
So if this stays the same as the index then you now have bladeguard with a 3+ save a 4++ invulnerable save who have a +1 to their save and can only be wounded on a 4+
No wolves on Fenris wrote: So if this stays the same as the index then you now have bladeguard with a 3+ save a 4++ invulnerable save who have a +1 to their save and can only be wounded on a 4+
+1 to the armour saving throw, specifically. But yes.
But they have to compete with terminators in the same slot, points, and similar abilities, but with a wider range of options.
Seeing the 360 of the stormspeeder it looks much better to me. Most of the photos shown previously seem to be from the worst possible angle. Gunner still looks like he will be dead though-sandwiched between 2 jet engines and 2 HMGs/rocket launchers can’t be healthy.
£45 for 8 marines.... Ouch, I get it, there's a character tax but still.
I mentioned we were down to only a few kits needed to fill out the primaris line, one of them being an ancient.
I think the list now stands at:
*Gravis captain with the configuration from dark imperium (I think this won't be released though)
*Supressor multipart kit (may actually eventually come as a dual kit with the hellfuys that have been mentioned)
*Judicier kit
*Bladeguard Ancient (more on a technicality than anything)
After that, it's a case of starting the next batch of new/updates like finally getting primaris terminators etc.
Did anyone really think if they solidified all the chapters into one book they wouldn't still release these supplements ?
The proof was in the pudding when they first started doing supplements. Really all this did was cost the players of those marine armies more money and perhaps give us chances for even more marine releases than ever before.
I'm reminded of a quote to be careful what someone wishes for. Well now we got them all in one massive tome, as well as an army of supplements. This feels much better yes ?
AngryAngel80 wrote: Did anyone really think if they solidified all the chapters into one book they wouldn't still release these supplements ?
The proof was in the pudding when they first started doing supplements. Really all this did was cost the players of those marine armies more money and perhaps give us chances for even more marine releases than ever before.
I'm reminded of a quote to be careful what someone wishes for. Well now we got them all in one massive tome, as well as an army of supplements. This feels much better yes ?
In some ways, yes. Never again suffering through the psychic snoozefest debacle where they laboriously apply the same update individually over and over again is a big plus. As is not having stupid crap where certain chapters are left out of equipment changes [storm shields] for an entire edition because reasons.
They could, very reasonably, do a 10e SM codex and not bother to update the supplements, because everything should point back to the main book. It probably won't happen that way, because the snowflakes want their cheddar and GW wants to sell them cheese, but the current system does actually lend itself to minimizing SM updates. It just requires SM consumers and GW to control their worst impulses. Faint hope, but theoretically doable
You assume we won't still see them release the updates to new units or additions through a slew of psychic awakening books again. I bet you we still will live through that again just so they can sell us book on book on book it just makes sense for them. This has done nothing but open the flood gate of even more marine releases and not less.
Sure, they could actually have this lead to less Marine releases and Governments could really do the best for the people and we will all love each other one day and treat each other as we wanted to be treated. Also possible but about as likely as GW getting off the space marine super bandwagon at this point.
As for expecting costumers to not buy it ? Lets be real, you see the same posts I do, the ones that say " I hate it, it's awful, it's robbery..I'll only by three units now ! Take that GW ! "
AngryAngel80 wrote: You assume we won't still see them release the updates to new units or additions through a slew of psychic awakening books again. I bet you we still will live through that again just so they can sell us book on book on book it just makes sense for them. This has done nothing but open the flood gate of even more marine releases and not less.
Its done nothing at all to the number of marine releases. It has just simplified rules updates by giving marines a USR book for the common datasheets and gear.
If GW wants to keep spamming SM releases, and people want to keep buying them, it does not matter how the book line is organized.
Blastaar wrote:More, because DA and BA players need TWO books for the privilege of playing with their toys.
Not what Damocles is referring to. Just that the 40k book line isn't increased or decreased just because the DA codex and BA codex are supplements now. They've co-existed with an SM book for as long as they've had separate books (as opposed to their shared one way back).
Eh I think the codex+supplement model works better. It allows chapters to get their special stuff, and not need to update four other books every time the main changes. Players who don't want to pay extra for a supplement don't have to--BA, DA, etc can still be played out of the main codex marines just fine.
Don't want to miss out on all that extra stuff? Well welcome to the alternative to supplements--you just don't get that content. It's where the rest of the game is, and from our perspective it seems pretty entitled to complain that having more stuff means paying more. At least marine players have a choice.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Wow. 20 head options for eradicators. And drilled out side vents for the melta barrels feels new.
Stormspeeder is also quite a bit cheaper than expected. I was budgeting for a kit priced like the gladiator or Impulsor.
Well, I'm having a hard time telling what the price is going to be. The Australia surcharge puts it at the same price as a Redemptor Dread or a (base) Land Raider [AUS$110], because those are the same price down there. Here they're $65 and $80 respectively. The former is the same price as the stalker, which is just AUS$85. Because GW.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Wow. 20 head options for eradicators. And drilled out side vents for the melta barrels feels new.
Stormspeeder is also quite a bit cheaper than expected. I was budgeting for a kit priced like the gladiator or Impulsor.
Well, I'm having a hard time telling what the price is going to be. The Australia surcharge puts it at the same price as a Redemptor Dread or a (base) Land Raider [AUS$110], because those are the same price down there. Here they're $65 and $80 respectively. The former is the same price as the stalker, which is just AUS$85. Because GW.
I'm going based on the NZD prices which seem to be 2x the USD ones pretty consistently.
Eldarain wrote: So we're at the point where the loyalist book is an 11 volume set. They're just taking up all the air in every element now.
Take it up with the consolidationist donkey-caves that couldn't stand different Codexes being different Codexes.
Don't, however, blame the people who play the Chapters - they didn't chose this.
Pft! Having separate supplement books isn't consolidation.
It's literally the same number of books as if they were all separate codexes.
More, because DA and BA players need TWO books for the privilege of playing with their toys.
Well Loyalist Marines should've only ever had one codex to begin with but here we are since y'all whined about supplements and/or wanting the Vanilla Marine options.
Guess that's the price you pay for getting access units that shouldn't have been cut off to begin with, at least according to GW. Y'all buy it up too so it's kinda hilarious.
The metric being that we have over 100 entries for one codex because of garbage planning, not even counting special units, also on top of the fact that the Chapters really don't operate differently overall and the artifical differences were there just for the sake of being there to pretend it's unique the Angels don't have Ironclads for reasons?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Eh I think the codex+supplement model works better. It allows chapters to get their special stuff, and not need to update four other books every time the main changes. Players who don't want to pay extra for a supplement don't have to--BA, DA, etc can still be played out of the main codex marines just fine.
Don't want to miss out on all that extra stuff? Well welcome to the alternative to supplements--you just don't get that content. It's where the rest of the game is, and from our perspective it seems pretty entitled to complain that having more stuff means paying more. At least marine players have a choice.
"can" sure. Do you enjoy auto lose when facing any other marine?
According to TTT, Covid has delayed the preview copies being shipped out here in the UK, so we may not get any codex reviews today/this weekend from the UK guys (may only be them as opposed to everyone though), here’s hoping the same issue hasn’t caused delays globally, I want to see the full death wing/inner circle rules and doctrine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When the Assault Doctrine is active for your army, while a DEATHWING INFANTRY or DEATHWING DREADNOUGHT makes a melee attack against a CHARACTER unit, or a unit that contains any models with a wound characteristic of 8+, you can re-roll the wound roll.
Also Weapons from the Dark Age is back, looks unchanged other than being 2CP
Unfortunately the deathwing strike master was glossed over, with a little bit of arrogance in that the guy at GMG already assumed what it was, incorrectly stating it was a form of captain.
Still assume it is a lieutenant but we’ll be waiting on more diligent and detailed reviews to confirm it.
Also want to see and have a look at the deathwing, deathwing command squad, black knights, and the other specific rave wing speeders and fliers in a little more detail, to assess any changes.
Edit: Miniwargaming just confirmed it is the deathwing a lieutenant and that the other datasheets have minimal changes if anyway.
I'm fairly certain Dark Angels will only be good for a few months, then be either beaten by codex creep or just nerfed into oblivion. They have always had the distinction of being THAT Chapter after all.
All the Dynasties get by with one book
All the Septs get by with one book
All the Kabals get by with one book
All the Cults get by with one book
All the Hive Fleets get by with one book
All the Clans get by with one book
All the Regiments get by with one book
All the Orders get by with one book
All the Daemon Legions get by with one book
All the Forge Worlds get by with one book
All the Dynasties get by with one book
All the Septs get by with one book
All the Kabals get by with one book
All the Cults get by with one book
All the Hive Fleets get by with one book
All the Clans get by with one book
All the Regiments get by with one book
All the Orders get by with one book
All the Daemon Legions get by with one book
All the Forge Worlds get by with one book
Yeah but muh Mehreens are super super speshul and they should get more of everything than the bad NPC faction
This is a News and Rumours thread - maybe we have our weekly argument about how many Codexes Space Marines get/need/deserve somewhere else? Its like we need a dedicated sub-forum that horse.
Anyhoo - Liking what I am seeing from the previews.
Happy - Weapons from the Dark Age is back!
Sad - no more Combined Assault
All the Dynasties get by with one book
All the Septs get by with one book
All the Kabals get by with one book
All the Cults get by with one book
All the Hive Fleets get by with one book
All the Clans get by with one book
All the Regiments get by with one book
All the Orders get by with one book
All the Daemon Legions get by with one book
All the Forge Worlds get by with one book
Books aren't published to meet in-game lore.
Books are published to meet demand from customers.
If, hypothetically, 5% of customers play Xenos and 50% of customers play just Dark Angels, all Xenos need to be put into a single book and Dark Angels need to be split into 10 different books to get roughly comparable coverage.
It'd be unfair (not to mention stupid from a business perspective) to provide the same amount of publications to 50% as you do to just 5%.
I'll think I have to add chaplain on bike to buff my 10-man Black knights squad, the new relic that gives +1 attack is an auto-include, even for deathwing lists. It's only once per battle but can easily swing the game. Oh man, these new rules are so dope.
The problem is going to be the same as when building from Index. So much good stuff to choose, you won't have close to the points you'd like to do so.
Pennance of Remembrance, while still good, won't work on a term ancient that just teleported down. He needs to be on table in command phase.
Im ezcited (was going to correct spelling, but its a new word now meaning excited to take Ezekiel) for Interromancy and getting use out of my Librarians.
Pennance of Remembrance, while still good, won't work on a term ancient that just teleported down. He needs to be on table in command phase.
*looks at Bladeguard*
They can't teleport, can't take Impulsors in a Deathwing detachment, and have Indomitus Ancients available for as little as £6 on ebay. Perfect for footslogging it into battle.
GaroRobe wrote: GW finally lets you get the Ancient from Dark Imperium.
For half a price of an Dark Imperium set...
And nevermind that but I actually look at Eradicator sprues in GW site as I really thought that 20 heads was an typo but it looks like its not. But as its shows from backside so I am interested if there is new helmet designs or they just went overboard.
All the Dynasties get by with one book
All the Septs get by with one book
All the Kabals get by with one book
All the Cults get by with one book
All the Hive Fleets get by with one book
All the Clans get by with one book
All the Regiments get by with one book
All the Orders get by with one book
All the Daemon Legions get by with one book
All the Forge Worlds get by with one book
Books aren't published to meet in-game lore.
Books are published to meet demand from customers.
If, hypothetically, 5% of customers play Xenos and 50% of customers play just Dark Angels, all Xenos need to be put into a single book and Dark Angels need to be split into 10 different books to get roughly comparable coverage.
It'd be unfair (not to mention stupid from a business perspective) to provide the same amount of publications to 50% as you do to just 5%.
And Dark Angels are Space Marines, while the whole lot of players with Iron Hands and White Scars armies in 7th were able to get by fine with just one codex.
Pennance of Remembrance, while still good, won't work on a term ancient that just teleported down. He needs to be on table in command phase.
*looks at Bladeguard*
They can't teleport, can't take Impulsors in a Deathwing detachment, and have Indomitus Ancients available for as little as £6 on ebay. Perfect for footslogging it into battle.
While rubber needs to meet the road, the Dark Angels are looking like the strongest Space Marine dex right now. That's saying something when you look at White Scars and BA.
I don't think they are as absurd as 8th edition Iron Hands, like some suggested, but I am a bit concerned they may be a bit oppressive out the gate.
Either way, I'm glad that we are mostly moving on from SM at this point. Looking forward to the Dark Eldar and Ad Mech.
So, am seeing that right, if I charge greenwing marines like helblasters, erradicators or intercessors, they get to shoot me in the face hitting on 4+ during their turn?
Jidmah wrote: So, am seeing that right, if I charge greenwing marines like helblasters, erradicators or intercessors, they get to shoot me in the face hitting on 4+ during their turn?
Necronmaniac05 wrote: That necron codex that i thought looked really cool when it came out suddenly looks like a poor relation lol
Necron codex has some pretty glaring issues though, especially with the use of CORE.
TBF only marines seem to be getting widespread core.
DG have same issue as Necrons wrg to core. They only have 5 units I believe with core. Then you have Daemon vehicles not getting legion traits, (Like with Necrons having detroyer type being different)
I think you will see most codex outside of SM having majority of units not core
Necronmaniac05 wrote: That necron codex that i thought looked really cool when it came out suddenly looks like a poor relation lol
Necron codex has some pretty glaring issues though, especially with the use of CORE.
TBF only marines seem to be getting widespread core.
DG have same issue as Necrons wrg to core. They only have 5 units I believe with core. Then you have Daemon vehicles not getting legion traits, (Like with Necrons having detroyer type being different)
I think you will see most codex outside of SM having majority of units not core
Oh trust me if you've seen any post I've made in the last two weeks you'll see I have quite a few problems with the Death Guard codex.
Eldenfirefly wrote:GW seems to be going along this line of thinking " When every codex in the game is OP, then nobody will be op! "
That actually sounds, right? And everyone wants their faction to be awesome, so I don't see a problem?
Umm, no. If they're all OP then categorically they're not OP relative to anything, they just feel strong.
If every army has OP options, then you're just talking about bad internal faction balance.
If they're each OP when released then it's just escalation and not balance.
Your first statement is what I meant. Every faction should "feel strong", but each new codex will feel "OP" in relation to those that haven't been updated from 8th. I'm definitely not advocating that each faction have a few "OP options". Just that each feels strong in relation to others. No obviously weak codexes. That would be a good thing.
There's a different between strong, and getting free upgrades to units from an already strong codex. GW went with the free upgrades option here for DA, and that concerns me greatly.
Either we're going to get nerfed hard or we're going to be suffering from early codex Blues again as every subsequent codex creeps even further up the power scale. I'd like to be wrong, but long time DA players know we can't have nice things...
Every time I get an inclination to start a Primaris force because some of the models look nice, I check the prices and it brings me back down to earth. $84AUD for 3 models? Ouch, no thanks.
The codex creep is sort of funny I must admit. I guess we won’t know until we see how they perform physically though, paper isn’t always right.
I can’t wait though for when my AdMech are disgustingly broken so my friends with earlier codexes have a horrific time until I don’t want to field them anymore! But at least their armies with later books will get to then in turn demolish me once they come until we all quit 9th like we do every edition near the end until 10th where the cynical cycle of masochism can once again begin.
Eldenfirefly wrote:GW seems to be going along this line of thinking " When every codex in the game is OP, then nobody will be op! "
That actually sounds, right? And everyone wants their faction to be awesome, so I don't see a problem?
Umm, no. If they're all OP then categorically they're not OP relative to anything, they just feel strong.
If every army has OP options, then you're just talking about bad internal faction balance.
If they're each OP when released then it's just escalation and not balance.
Your first statement is what I meant. Every faction should "feel strong", but each new codex will feel "OP" in relation to those that haven't been updated from 8th. I'm definitely not advocating that each faction have a few "OP options". Just that each feels strong in relation to others. No obviously weak codexes. That would be a good thing.
But then GW would have to bring Matt Ward back to write up some over the top epic fluff -and in the end the player who ad the most Knights to their list win.
All the Dynasties get by with one book
All the Septs get by with one book
All the Kabals get by with one book
All the Cults get by with one book
All the Hive Fleets get by with one book
All the Clans get by with one book
All the Regiments get by with one book
All the Orders get by with one book
All the Daemon Legions get by with one book
All the Forge Worlds get by with one book
Books aren't published to meet in-game lore.
Books are published to meet demand from customers.
If, hypothetically, 5% of customers play Xenos and 50% of customers play just Dark Angels, all Xenos need to be put into a single book and Dark Angels need to be split into 10 different books to get roughly comparable coverage.
It'd be unfair (not to mention stupid from a business perspective) to provide the same amount of publications to 50% as you do to just 5%.
This doesn't make any sense at all. Codices should be (and are, mostly) released based on the amount of material which could be created for a given faction, not its popularity. If DAs were 50% of the meta, adding more options to them in particular would only bloat the faction and make for a bunch of useless choices and units that overwhelm players. Imagine someone telling you that you need 6 different books to make the best build for your legion. That's ridiculous. Also, making more DA books would just encourage more players to play DAs over other factions, which leads to a higher percentage of identical matches, which leads to stale gameplay, which leads to people quitting because they're tired of playing against fething Dark Angels all day.
Meanwhile, adding support for unpopular factions increases their popularity, which also leads to more books and minis sold. A person who buys DAs and plays them forever buys three books, and a person who buys DAs but switches to Orks buys four, plus some more minis on the side. Basic economics. A diverse metagame is also beneficial since you don't feel as if your opponents' armies always have the same playstyle or aesthetic. Tau and Tsons are fundamentally different armies to look at and play against, and that sort of variety is a good thing.
As for "books being published to meet demand," the most popular books pick up the slack for the least popular ones. The price of printing a couple books for the least popular faction in the game is far less than the opportunity cost of people quitting the hobby because half their units got squatted, or because they have to share their codex with a bunch of other random factions. This in turn leads to a less diverse metagame, which leads to, again, more people quitting. It's basic economics.
This problem to an extent is what's happening with Space Marines right now. The only difference is that Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines are currently the two factions in the game which actually have room for a bunch of extra codices, since each legion has such a distinctive identity. As much as I love Evil Sunz, for instance, I know they really don't have enough room for an entire book of their own. If they shared it with Blood Axes and Snakebites, maybe, but at the end of the day there's just more to say about Bobby G than Wazdakka Gutsmek. The only issue is that Chaos, Imperium, and Xenos aren't getting their codices out fast enough, and some of them really do deserve joint supplements that I know we're not going to get (namely Orks, Nids, and Guard).
Should be for what? Not for players sake at least. Everything is aimed at gw making profits. So books should be released on what makes most profits. More books for non selling factions isn't efficient.
Everything revolves around "what makes profit". Fluff, balance, what factions need, what players feel all are irrelevant. Profit is everything.
Flipsiders wrote: The only difference is that Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines are currently the two factions in the game which actually have room for a bunch of extra codices, since each legion has such a distinctive identity. As much as I love Evil Sunz, for instance, I know they really don't have enough room for an entire book of their own.
That's not true.
Blood Angels didn't get a bunch of variant units, expanded background, and a marginally different playstyle compared to Doom Eagles because those changes inherently existed - they were created in order to MAKE Blood Angels more different, thus justifying the different rules.
If the same process was applied to Evil Sunz, they could easily 'deserve' a separate Codex/Supplement to the same extent that Blood Angels do.
(Not that Blood Angels OR Evil Sunz should actually have separate books from their parent factions of course!)
tneva82 wrote: Should be for what? Not for players sake at least. Everything is aimed at gw making profits. So books should be released on what makes most profits. More books for non selling factions isn't efficient.
Everything revolves around "what makes profit". Fluff, balance, what factions need, what players feel all are irrelevant. Profit is everything.
It's a balance though. If you go all in on marines it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where it's the only thing that's popular and people will eventually get burned out on them.
The value of the lesser played races is more than just the number of units you shift in any given month. It's about having a more complete game and more complete universe and providing more interesting battles than just marines vs marines, they give an option for players who might not care for marines or a 2nd army for someone who primarily plays marines, and if they're invested in more you'll end up with more people buying and playing them.
And Dark Angels are Space Marines, while the whole lot of players with Iron Hands and White Scars armies in 7th were able to get by fine with just one codex.
So really what IS your point?
That there is a need for more Marine books, if more people play Marines. If the Marine-fan-base grows further, they'll need to publish more supplements (Templars? upgrade some White Dwarf supplements like Spears of the Emperor, Silver Templars, etc..? Make up new Chapters they can spin off into supplements, etc.. ) to keep the resource-allocation roughly on par with one book-release for every, dunno, 25,000 40K-customers.
Don't know why people just can't grasp that DA, BA, and SW have been "different" forever now. More than Ultras, Fists, Scars etc. Constant whining about just makes you look like a donkey cave.
Yes, they are marines, but GW have been pushing them as marines+ for decades, and I expect that will continue.
For Dark Angels, goes back to 2nd Ed Epic Space Marine, if memory serves.
I could well be misremembering (it is after all a long time ago), but I’m sure both the Deathwing and Ravenwing both had Company Cards, with additional rules? Rave wing may have been entirely unique as a company comprised of Bikers and Landspeeders.
Other than that, Space Wolves go back to the very tail end of Rogue Trader, in so far as they got Roger, Nigel and Eric as named characters. Ultramarines got the first Marine Codex in 2nd Ed, then Space Wolves (introducing Blood Claws, Grey Hunters etc. I think. Those may have been in Epic as well?), finally Angels of Death, a combo-codex for Blood and Dark Angels.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Other than that, Space Wolves go back to the very tail end of Rogue Trader, in so far as they got Roger, Nigel and Eric as named characters. Ultramarines got the first Marine Codex in 2nd Ed, then Space Wolves (introducing Blood Claws, Grey Hunters etc. I think. Those may have been in Epic as well?), finally Angels of Death, a combo-codex for Blood and Dark Angels.
Space Wolves were first (IIRCSW were the first Codex for 2nd Ed) but yes.
tneva82 wrote: Should be for what? Not for players sake at least. Everything is aimed at gw making profits. So books should be released on what makes most profits. More books for non selling factions isn't efficient.
Everything revolves around "what makes profit". Fluff, balance, what factions need, what players feel all are irrelevant. Profit is everything.
You forget one thing- GW doesn't have a functioning market research team. These clowns had to be TOLD that people want SoBs in an online poll, cause GW is fifty years behind North Korea when it comes to market research. GW sticks to making marines cause they know marines sell, but they have absolutely no idea why things sell and why other things don't sell. The Imperium of Man is 100% based on GW's business line.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Other than that, Space Wolves go back to the very tail end of Rogue Trader, in so far as they got Roger, Nigel and Eric as named characters. Ultramarines got the first Marine Codex in 2nd Ed, then Space Wolves (introducing Blood Claws, Grey Hunters etc. I think. Those may have been in Epic as well?), finally Angels of Death, a combo-codex for Blood and Dark Angels.
Space Wolves were first (IIRCSW were the first Codex for 2nd Ed) but yes.
Yes Space Marines have expanded a ton (especially with replacing all the normal units with primaris versions) but so have quite a few other factions over the past few editions, in some cases returning from the dead from long ago.
Harlequins went from a single unit with two specialists to their own faction.
Genestealer cults returned from 2nd edition to become a full army.
Admech went from a single tech priest and servitors in guard to a pair of mini factions to a full army.
Knights went from a mostly forgotten unit in Epic to a mainstay unit to varied army.
Thousand sons and death guard grew from single units and characters into their own books.
Yes, marines have a lot of faction bloat and spinoffs, but they started with a larger range of kits.
weapon profiles for weapon profile god.
Only Azzy, Sammy and Bell have/had those. 'Cause they're special. Sheesh.
