Storage-wise, most everything (except the Monster) will fit in a 2" foam case. I'm waiting on the Monster and other Wave 2 models to see how that will work.
For storage, I picked up some "jewelry" plastic cases for $.99 each from Hobby Lobby. They'll hold 5 of the valks in each mode (though I haven't attached my planes to bases yet) or 15 of the other destroids.
Unfortunately, the zent stuff doesn't fit, so I had to go with a larger (double-sided) carry case, though I got it from the same place.
I just recently got some gashapon figures (Miraya's power armor and her super valk in guardian mode). Unfortunately, they turned out to be 2x as big as these RRT figures, but they are 500% better looking (and already painted). Now I wish the RRT models had been in Z scale, like my Dark Age mechwarrior stuff.
P.S.: Funnily enough, I have that Yamato 1J armored valk (and have the alpha and Roy's veritech Robotech masterpiece hunks of junk) and had built that particular Revell robotech kit - along with the other dougram-turned-robotech models. Used to use them in a scaled up version of Battletech with my friends (not the Yamato piece, just the Revell kits).
Are those similar to fridge magnets? If so they will likely lose grip strength over time. Might want to try rare earth magnets as the magnetic field on those are more permanent.
stanman wrote: Are those similar to fridge magnets? If so they will likely lose grip strength over time. Might want to try rare earth magnets as the magnetic field on those are more permanent.
They are pretty cheap magnetic pads. If the magnets give out they are cheap to replace as you can simply peal them off the bottom of the base and replace. They are flat and come with adhesive so little work is needed. Just get a 1 1/2 inch die to cut them out with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: $10 for a 1 foot by 2 foot sheet
Still not sure how I want to store stuff after painting. I don't really like the clear plastic tubs. BF is $$$. Tho I suppose I only need enough to carry 300-450 pts worth at a time.
rigeld2 wrote: $10 buys 80 REMs that'll pretty much never wear out and will each hold a plastic model vertical.
Just FYI.
Thanks,
most of the magnets that I've seen I would have to drill a hole in the base and all to mount. These I can just peal the sticker off and place then on the bases.
rigeld2 wrote: $10 buys 80 REMs that'll pretty much never wear out and will each hold a plastic model vertical.
Just FYI.
Thanks,
most of the magnets that I've seen I would have to drill a hole in the base and all to mount. These I can just peal the sticker off and place then on the bases.
The minis I've been getting lately with some manufacturers (CB and Avatars of War for example) have a circular slot in them made specifically to put a REM there. I've found it quite convenient.
Good stuff to see.
I was leaning toward magnets and a metal sheet in a plastic case, nice to see real world examples.
I know many of the WHFB people had been using magnetic sheet for years, I guess these disk bases lend themselves well to it since they are flat so lots of surface area.
Where do you guys find die cutters? Is this some stuff from the scrapbooking crowd?
Will look into the usual suspect places (Michaels, Walmart...)
Nice seeing all those pods assembled, motivation to get back to the assembly grindstone.
Talizvar wrote: Good stuff to see.
I was leaning toward magnets and a metal sheet in a plastic case, nice to see real world examples.
I know many of the WHFB people had been using magnetic sheet for years, I guess these disk bases lend themselves well to it since they are flat so lots of surface area.
Where do you guys find die cutters? Is this some stuff from the scrapbooking crowd?
Will look into the usual suspect places (Michaels, Walmart...)
Nice seeing all those pods assembled, motivation to get back to the assembly grindstone.
Silence peasant! You are fortunate that Palladium even allows you to look at pictures of other backers having their stuff.
Get back to goveling at our feet and you'll get yours only when you have earned it.
Guys, stop worrying. Kevin devoted a whole line in between hawking Xmas grab bags, talking about Kathy's cooking, and more xmas grab bag commentary to tell us that everything is fine and we'll have more info yesterday. He's a man of his word according to Jeff "NMI" Ruiz and if someone of that high morale calibre says it then it must be true (and you'll be banned if you post anything to the contrary over there).
The minis I've been getting lately with some manufacturers (CB and Avatars of War for example) have a circular slot in them made specifically to put a REM there. I've found it quite convenient.
The minis I've been getting lately with some manufacturers (CB and Avatars of War for example) have a circular slot in them made specifically to put a REM there. I've found it quite convenient.
In the bases or the minis themselves? Pics?
The bases in my case, but I've also seen minis with slots premade for magnets (FoW tanks and... another company that does resins and that I don't remember right now, at least ^^).
Ugh. There's a giant pile of nothing sitting on the PB site. I half want to quote the whole thing just to show that, and half recognize that doing so regularly could constitute a crime against humanity.
So here's the link, and here are the choice bits relating to RRT:
Holy crow, there is soooo much to talk about that the big question for me while writing for this update, is exactly what to cover now and what to save for the Update on Thursday. After some discussion, we decided I should focus on books that are coming in the months ahead, and only touch upon other subjects that will be addressed in the next Weekly Update later this week. That will include the latest goings-on for the Palladium Open House, AdeptiCon and Gen Con Indy (and a lot is going on). Likewise, Wayne and I will be penning a lengthy Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) Update to post and email in a day or two. It is already partially written as it was originally intended for this Update.
In full because apparently we've gone from "maybe an update on Friday/Saturday" to "later this weekend" to "in a day or two" or "maybe Thursday"? They just have so much to talk about, you see!
Meanwhile, we want to get the Wave Two of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ expansion sets finished and in your hands and do a number of things to promote the release of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ around the world in 2015. FAQs, new and improved building instructions, and other good stuff for RRT is coming. We want to bring you truly epic Robotech® gaming experiences for all eras (and some surprises) over the next few years.
"Promote the release of Robotech around the world", eh? If only there was some kind of pre-existing consumer base that gave you money and would likely be highly invested in building and trying out that game, perhaps even broadening the user base with friends and showing off those games in shops...
Man oh man, Palladium has been terrible hitting its release dates the last couple of years. I hope we’ll be much better this year, but only time will tell. With that in mind, I’m going to try to avoid hard deadline dates and instead indicate what we are working on and very broad releases like by Summer, unless we know otherwise.
Right now, we have 22 books in development, and that does not include getting Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) and Wave One products released to our backers and stores around the world, nor the massive number of items that are part of the RRT Wave Two release coming later in 2015.
With hard work, your support and spreading the word about all these great new releases as they come out, 2015 could be a stellar year for you, our fans, and Palladium Books.
So, they've learned from the Robotech debacle. They've learned to stop giving dates for things, to one degree or another.
Some of those hot new products include:
New! Robotech® Dice Bag (tentative) Robotech®: Expeditionary Force Marines™ Sourcebook
A dice bag and the EFM book that's been pushed back, what, an entire year now?
We are not sure which of the following will see release in 2015, or in what order, but these are projects we are working on, or manuscripts already turned in that we are considering or awaiting final rewrite and editing. And there are still some secret projects and licenses yet to be revealed.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Advanced Rule Book
Just a heads up, Palladium will be trying to sell us a book. Maybe in the next 12-24 months.
Maybe.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
There is so much to talk about regarding Robotech® RPG Tactics™ that we are giving it its own Update. That should go out in a day or two. We are proud of this exciting new game and encourage anyone who has an interest in Robotech® to give it a hard look. If you love Robotech® — oh baby, you have to give it a look. The game really captures the look and feel of the TV show and is a blast to play.
News about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave One shipping to the rest of the world, FAQ, more detailed instruction sheets for building the game pieces, RRT Wave Two, and more will be addressed in the Robotech® Update going out in a day or two.
Oh good, yeah, I feel confident already we'll see info on all that or more.
In... a day or two. Yes. Sure thing.
COMING: A new style of Rifts® Dice Bag
We were never completely happy with the old style dice bag. Well, Alex tracked down a better quality bag, so we’ll be making and releasing a new Rifts® dice bag. The imprint will be a silk screen printing that should last much longer than the old dice bag and looks richer and classier. It is a very different look than the bag of the past, but we love it and think you will too.
Size: About the same as the old bag, but a nicer material.
Note: We may be offering a dice bag for select other game lines as well, like Robotech®.
Why is this included, as it doesn't pertain to Robotech specifically? Because that last line makes me laugh. "Hey guys, we MAY be offering other dice bags.
... they specifically said they were tentatively going to be offering a Robotech dice bag like a page above there.
Some top notch consistency editing right there.
2015 Convention Schedule
● AdeptiCon – March 19-22, 2015, in the Chicago, Illinois area.
There will be at least one tournament, demos and Palladium Books present. More G.M.s and demo teams wanted. More details next Weekly Update.
● Palladium Open House – May 14-17, 2015, at the Palladium warehouse in Westland, Michigan.
That’s only FOUR months away! Can you believe it? Have you ordered your admission tickets and “reserved” your hotel room? What are you waiting for? We are so excited. Palladium gaming nonstop for three days (four for those coming to VIP Thursday). A lot of Palladium creators have confirmed they are coming. Meet dozens of Palladium creators, get autographs, have a blast. G.M.s and demo teams needed to run events. More details next Weekly Update.
For more info and to purchase tickets to the Palladium Open House, click here.
● Gen Con® Indy – July 30 to August 2, 2015 in Indianapolis, Indiana
It is the biggest gaming convention in North America. Palladium will be there. G.M.s and demo teams needed to run events. More details next Weekly Update.
"The good news: we have remembered that Adepticon exists this year. The other news (it can't possibly be bad); GMs? We need GMs! Please GM! GMGMGM!!"
2015: Final thoughts for big plans, changes and your support
There is no shortage of fantastic ideas for new sourcebooks and new games. It’s all a matter of time and money. Historically speaking, we let our optimism and excitement for upcoming releases and ideas for books get the better of us, compelling us to post unrealistic release dates. So I’m going to going to try something new. I’m going to talk about some upcoming projects and books without offering a target release date. That way you’ll be in the loop, but you won’t be disappointed with a missed release date.
There are a number of changes that are coming. That will include changes in the way we do things. Changes on the Palladium website, and changes to get more product released. Some changes will be small. Some larger and more noticeable. I think most of you will be excited by many of them, as our goal is to release more product and to make the Palladium community bigger and more fun.
You can help by purchasing product and spreading the positive word. We keep hearing how the books coming out are consistently mind-blowing, fun and some of our best work ever. Awesome. And we agree, because we are all pushing the envelope and on the top of our game. Yet sales in some areas are disappointing. We will be releasing a wide variety of books this year. Many titles you’ve been wanting for quite some time. If you want to see more new books for those game lines, you will want to make sure you buy them and spread the word to encourage others to try different titles and game settings. Lousy sales will mean our focusing on other areas instead. Word of mouth is a powerful tool. We need your help and support to grow the Palladium Books brand and create excitement over our many game lines. We also hope to see many of you at the Palladium Open House in May, as well as other gaming events.
– Kevin Siembieda, Game Designer, Writer and Fan Boy
Okay, that bit is in its entirety again, because I am history's greatest monster.
On one hand, I'm a little surprised that they admit to flagging sales like that. It's somewhat out of character from the "EVERYTHING IS AWESOME!!" stance that usually is taken, but on the other hand, there is sense of desperation/begging/calling out to the Fan Friends to buy! Please buy! That one dude who used to buy 3-10+ of each book stopped buying and please just buy buy buy!
It's kind of off putting.
Oh, and don't forget!
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – Available now in the USA and Canada – coming to other parts of the world soon
There are going to be some cranky folks out there.
It's almost the same thing Kevin posted last year. Only main difference I see is he promised 22 books this time. And why keep talking about secret projects and then say that they can't talk about it. He's just trolling at this point.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I don't care about any of that stuff. Finish the fething KS, and give me my damn toys!
Truer words could not be said.
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Forar wrote: Ugh. There's a giant pile of nothing sitting on the PB site. I half want to quote the whole thing just to show that, and half recognize that doing so regularly could constitute a crime against humanity.
News about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave One shipping to the rest of the world, FAQ, more detailed instruction sheets for building the game pieces, RRT Wave Two, and more will be addressed in the Robotech® Update going out in a day or two.
Well, at least they appear to be aware of the assembly instructions for being the steaming pile of excrement they are since they chose not to number sprues.
The part that bothers me is that I fully expect they will not get this right either.
COMING: A new style of Rifts® Dice Bag
We were never completely happy with the old style dice bag. Well, Alex tracked down a better quality bag, so we’ll be making and releasing a new Rifts® dice bag. The imprint will be a silk screen printing that should last much longer than the old dice bag and looks richer and classier. It is a very different look than the bag of the past, but we love it and think you will too.
Size: About the same as the old bag, but a nicer material.
Note: We may be offering a dice bag for select other game lines as well, like Robotech®.
Why is this included, as it doesn't pertain to Robotech specifically? Because that last line makes me laugh. "Hey guys, we MAY be offering other dice bags.
... they specifically said they were tentatively going to be offering a Robotech dice bag like a page above there.
Some top notch consistency editing right there.
Why? Of all the things to focus resources on?
We REALLY need those dice bags I tell you...
This corner of the market has always been handled by this:
Okay, that bit is in its entirety again, because I am history's greatest monster.
On one hand, I'm a little surprised that they admit to flagging sales like that. It's somewhat out of character from the "EVERYTHING IS AWESOME!!" stance that usually is taken, but on the other hand, there is sense of desperation/begging/calling out to the Fan Friends to buy! Please buy! That one dude who used to buy 3-10+ of each book stopped buying and please just buy buy buy!
Actually, I found this "Buy! please buy!" is fairly normal for them, the tone was different with a kickstarter and trying to get more backers or to buy more with the backer kits.
It's kind of off putting.
Desperation is never pretty.
Oh, and don't forget!
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – Available now in the USA and Canada – coming to other parts of the world soon
There are going to be some cranky folks out there.
Intent or not, some troll appeared in this quote... Ah Kevin, we just cannot make this kind of stuff up.
I really need to find better medication, obviously some people get some ace stuff.
I'm sure we'll have more to talk about when they finally get around to popping out that 'almost ready on Friday but it's getting late and woah now it's not quite ready on Sunday, give it a day or two' update/newsletter on RRT. So that might be today.
Or Thursday. Apparently an almost done document can take nearly a week to release.
Which is kind of this entire project in a nutshell.
Forar wrote: I'm sure we'll have more to talk about when they finally get around to popping out that 'almost ready on Friday but it's getting late and woah now it's not quite ready on Sunday, give it a day or two' update/newsletter on RRT. So that might be today.
Or Thursday. Apparently an almost done document can take nearly a MONTH to release.
Which is kind of this entire project in a nutshell.
Fixed that for you, Forar.
Although a lot of people believe in Murphy's Law (What can go wrong, will go wrong!) I am firmly in the camp with O'Brian - who thought that Murphy was overly optimistic.
Although a lot of people believe in Murphy's Law (What can go wrong, will go wrong!) I am firmly in the camp with O'Brian - who thought that Murphy was overly optimistic.
Well, only if they actually release a proper Update 'update', and not just an 'update in the form of a newsletter on our site that's like 70% copy/pasted advertisements for unrelated stuff'.
That said... has anyone actually heard from Wayne lately? Other than getting a bit defensive on Mike's page when people got huffy with him a week or two back?
I wonder if he's on an 'informing people is for the birds' run for the time being? Hell, the last KS update (Dec 2nd) was Kevin. The last KS update that presumably was by Wayne was Nov 3rd, two and a half months ago.
Not trying to concern troll/drum up controversy. I'm sure he was bal... neck deep in shipping and boxes and begging international shippers for a better rate, but he's been awfully quiet of late.
Well I'm at touch up painting on Robotech
Need to strip some Blood Angels Termies to repaint as Ghost Bear...
A team of Wrack was brought...
Four squads of Space Marines to paint.
Storm Raven needs repair. Has the dynamic flight profile of a brick.
Still debating rather to make "X's" instead of "Crosses" on both my Valk squads.
Plenty to do till Wave Two hits retail..
but saving money in the oh Helmet jar for Harlequins sometime in the future but I think wife be all over that..
Hey guys, it’s Wayne from Palladium. Here’s the latest.
Europe, Australia, and Rest of World Shipping
Europe: As we have mentioned previously, European packages are headed to Battle Foam’s UK warehouse, from whence they will be shipped to European backers from within the EU. It is our understanding this should save those backers VAT, which is why we are shipping by this method. The Wave One packages for all European backers were shipped from our warehouse to Battle Foam on Thursday, December 4. They arrived at Battle Foam’s Arizona warehouse on Thursday, December 11. Battle Foam was expecting to receive the ocean shipping container soon after that, but it didn't arrive until a week and a half later. The container, with a combination of our backers’ packages and Battle Foam’s own goods, left their warehouse on December 22, headed for the port in Los Angeles.
The ship that will take our container to the UK has experienced delays. It docked in Oakland yesterday after sitting off the coast waiting for almost a week. I know, because I've been watching it sit there for the last several days, apparently because the ports are congested (and we understand there’s a strike going on). After Oakland, Los Angeles is its next stop, where it will pick up Battle Foam’s container with the European packages, and head for the Panama Canal.
That ship is NYK Meteor. It just left Oakland today (January 13). As of yesterday, it was scheduled to arrive in LA on January 17, and eventually reach the UK on February 11. This was already a week or two behind schedule. However, I refreshed the shipping line’s web page right before posting this update, and the dates just changed dramatically. Now it shows it being scheduled to reach LA on January 26, a whopping nine days later than it what showed just yesterday.
I’m sorry, guys. We had no idea it would take this long for your stuff to reach you. When we shipped it out over a month ago, we thought it would be aboard ship and nearly to the UK or even there and shipping by now. Unfortunately, there’s nothing we can do about it at this point. Your rewards are in a sealed container sitting at the port in LA, waiting for the ship to arrive.
Australia: We packed up all of the Australian rewards over the next couple weeks after we shipped the European ones. I've been getting quote requests for a container to take them all to Australia, but the holidays interfered with that a lot, so they’re only now coming in. We’re hoping to schedule a container this week, which might take a week or two to be delivered. Then we’ll pack it and ship it out, and hope we don’t run into the kinds of delays the European container’s ship is hitting. Even so, travel time for a container from here to Australia is about a month, and that’s without any possible delays caused by the congestion and strike at the ports. I’m afraid we’re looking at late February or early March as a realistic delivery estimate for Australia. When we know more, we’ll report it here.
Rest of the World: When Australia’s packages have left the warehouse, we’ll begin shipping out the rest of the world. The good news for you guys is that we’ll send these packages directly to you, and you’ll likely receive them much faster, barring any delays in your country. Of course, that also means you’ll need to pay any applicable taxes, customs, fees and duty as normal.
We realize that no one is going to be happy with this news. We’re not either. And that brings me to something I wonder if I should have addressed sooner. Some people seem to believe we don’t care about our backers or fans, and that we have been taking our sweet time sending out product. Nothing could be further from the truth. Outcries of “lies” and “Palladium doesn't care,” are untrue. I say that as one of the people who has given up a big part of his life the past two years working on every aspect of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. I can assure you that creating a good product and getting it shipped out to our backers, worldwide, have always been our two top priorities.
Every new problem and delay is, as Kevin would say, “a dagger in our hearts.” If it upsets you, it kills us and hurts our reputation. If any of the delays could have been avoided, we most certainly would have done so. This is a big project with many partners and pieces. Palladium simply does not have absolute control over every aspect, as you can see from the long delay with the ship booked to carry EU backer rewards to the warehouse in the UK.
2014 has been a shipping nightmare for everyone. Our experienced broker told us he has never seen anything like the last year in regard to port congestion and work slowdowns due to the threat of a strike by dock workers. 2015 is not starting out any better. We could scream at our broker all day long via emails and telephone calls, but it wouldn't change a thing. We have to tough it out and wait, just like you.
From the start, we have given you release dates and ship dates as we knew them and as we ourselves believed them to be. As things change, we try to adapt to them as best we can and pass the often unpleasant news to you. Despite the problems and many delays, we choose to try to focus on the positive: that this is a game most of you will be pleased with, and it is just the beginning of something bigger.
Our plan for the future of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is to make it everything you want it to be. We listen. We learn. And as we do, we get wiser, more efficient and have a greater understanding of what you need and want. We aim to kill with this game and want to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ everything it can be.
Status of Wave Two Items
Wave Two is coming in 2015. We have not speculated as to when, because we get torn apart when we have to push back release dates. When we feel more comfortable with a projected release schedule, you will be the first to know. It will be this year. I can tell you that three weeks ago, Jeff Burke and I sent China changes and corrections to many of the 3D engineering models used for mold making and we are waiting for a progress report from them. I will try to post images of the 3D renders here as they are finalized and approved.
New and Improved Assembly Instructions
Jeff Burke is working on creating more detailed, clear and user friendly assembly instructions for the Wave One game pieces. This is also something we will probably be posting in small batches as he gets them finished. I will put links to them here in Kickstarter Updates as well as on Palladium’s website under The Cutting Room Floor and on DriveThruRPG.com as free downloads. The first ones should be available by the end of this week.
Adepticon – March 19-22, 2015
Palladium Books will be attending AdeptiCon this year. As it is our first time attending, we will only have two tables and a limited selection of products for sale. We are participating in the swag program, and there will be at least one Robotech® RPG Tactics™ tournament. There should also be some demos, too. We’re trying to organize more demo teams. Kevin, Jeff and I should all be present to chat.
FAQ
We have been working on an FAQ and will probably start posting a small selection and add to it over time. At this point, Megaversal Ambassador coordinator Patrick “Jake” Jakubowski will be running point on this, with input from the Palladium staff, Carmen Bellaire, Thomas Roach, Michael Arnold and others. Meanwhile, Carmen Bellaire, the co-author of the rules, has been discussing and working on advanced rules for the game.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ should not be available in stores in Europe and Australia
We have heard the reports that one or more stores in Australia and Europe are selling Robotech® RPG Tactics™. What I can tell you is that Palladium has not shipped product to distributors or retailers overseas. We have no intention of shipping them Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product until our overseas backers’ rewards have been shipped. Likewise, we have not authorized a street date for sale overseas by the North American distributors who have been shipped product. We are looking into the matter, and hope it is very isolated. We apologize if these reports have caused our overseas backers more frustration.
So, in brief; a more honest recognition of the shipping situation (and that it is, in fact, really bad) was nice, though I'm sure it's of little solace to the people who still have weeks or months to wait for their first round of boxes.
They keep playing lip service to this FAQ/Errata thing. Stop talking about it and do it. Just... start the page and put up the 2 things that have been declared (GU-11 clarification, missile numbers and points costs adjustments). Well, unless those changes aren't "official" official. Which is why they need to be on the site.
And Wave Two this year, eh? There are 50 weeks left in the year, and let's be frank, you guys want (if not need) it to be ready by Gencon. So that's 6 months away. Considering the number of molds alone, I sure hope there is just a metric ton to show off shortly, because considering how long the first dozen models took, I have a hard time believing the next two dozen will go swiftly, even with lessons learned that first time around.
As has been pointed out by a comrade in arms, is that said with the same definitive tone as when they told me that RRT WOULD be at Gencon 2014? (Close only counting in horseshoes and hand grenades)
Edit: but let's not forget:
Wayne from Palladium, Jan 17 2014 on Update #125 wrote:@Forar: Robotech RPG Tactics, the game, will be at Gen Con. For sale. In quantity. There's not much question about that. (I realize some folks on here are questioning it, but there's no doubt in my mind.) We hope to have it well in advance of that, but the particulars of just how well in advance are what we're still sorting out.
Bad news, EU date is unknown (but at least it's in progress, and even has URL's to ship tracking), Australian shipment hasn't left yet, and RoW is waiting on the Australian shipment to leave.
Also, they're stating as fact (twice) that Wave 2 will be this year. So I put the odds of it not being delayed to 2016 at about 3:1 against.
But yeah, most of it is the standard "We're doing stuff, but we're not gonna be specific in any meaningful way, just trust us!". And the usual "It hurts us more than it hurts you" pablum, though it didn't hit it's usual heights of martyrdom. So that's an improvement.
I do find it entertaining that THIS was the best they could come up with, given that it was apparently mostly written prior to Friday's Update, got pushed back twice (then, and again on Sunday), and the result is still pretty bland. Seems like standard practice from what I've seen of PB production.
" If any of the delays could have been avoided, we most certainly would have done so."
Why wasn't EU/ROW shipping figured out, I dunno, 6 months ago? Instead of packing boxes, it takes one person to make phone calls and schedule a container.
rigeld2 wrote: " If any of the delays could have been avoided, we most certainly would have done so."
Why wasn't EU/ROW shipping figured out, I dunno, 6 months ago? Instead of packing boxes, it takes one person to make phone calls and schedule a container.
PB is working serially in a parallel world.
I also like the reiteration of "It is our understanding this should save those backers VAT,". Because it looks like they're further setting themselves up to absolve themselves if the worst should come to pass, and VAT is applied. While I sincerely hope EU backers aren't pinged (for their sake, not PB's), if it does happen, it'd be interesting, what the resolution would be, based on prior assurances.
I do know that the shipment to Australia is going to take a fairly severe whack, moreso if Aus Customs take a scrutinizing look. If it's assessed based on wholesale as a portion of retail (ie, $100US per core box) rather than the commonly used "manufacturing cost" some KS's put down, it's quite possible that shipping by slow boat will work out to be almost as expensive as just shipping it USPS would have been.
A friend emailed the link above as he is going to the event and signed up for robotech. I'm not sure why (other than pulling numbers and sunshine out of a hat or rear end) they chose 400pts as the set army size when so many folks have trouble getting extra minis locally and the most common KS pledge will strain to get to 400pts whereas it isn't even possible for folks who just buy the boxed set to get there. While I understand that a tourney isn't the best event for someone not willing to invest more than just a starter's worth of minis into the game, it seems like the frequently lauded and plugged 300pt army that is more realistic (both in $$ and painting) would have been a better choice IMO for the first ever organized competitive play event. Also, they'll be using custom rpg characters as allowable.
400 points, Custom characters, WYSIWYG (but not for upgrades?) and painting requirements on a game that only North America is supposed to have direct retail access to. I mean, I doubt Adepticon brings in a big international crowd, but wow... just wow.
Especially since this is presumably the beta test for any tournament or larger event they run at Gencon later this year.
Wait, not just custom characters; enforced custom characters.
warboss wrote: Also, they'll be using custom rpg characters as allowable.
wat
It's not a complete free for all but they are allowing folks to customize their own special characters via the RPG rules in tactics to a limited degree. Without having ever played, I won't hazard a guess as to whether they're appropriately costed in that chapter of the book. It's all in the link provided.
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Forar wrote: 400 points, Custom characters, WYSIWYG (but not for upgrades?) and painting requirements on a game that only North America is supposed to have direct retail access to. I mean, I doubt Adepticon brings in a big international crowd, but wow... just wow.
Especially since this is presumably the beta test for any tournament or larger event they run at Gencon later this year.
Wait, not just custom characters; enforced custom characters.
Where does it say enforced? I saw that you "MAY" create your own character but not that you must. I don't have the rules with me at the moment but do squadron leaders count as characters? If not, a special would certainly do the trick to be your army commander.
Those rules look a lot like 40K rules to me. Hum..I wonder where they got the idea from.
Clearly the 400 points is meant as a way to up-sell product to the Battlecry crowd. Heck you can't even run a zentradi artillery squad without picking up 2 boxes since they run in squads of 6 but only 4 come in a pack.
But I can't fault the other tourny rules. Like I said look grabbed from 40k and they seem to do alright at 'Con tournies.
warboss wrote: Also, they'll be using custom rpg characters as allowable.
wat
It's not a complete free for all but they are allowing folks to customize their own special characters via the RPG rules in tactics to a limited degree. Without having ever played, I won't hazard a guess as to whether they're appropriately costed in that chapter of the book. It's all in the link provided.
Forar (among others) has mentioned that custom characters are heavily overpriced, so I'm not concerned about that being an issue.
The 400pts thing seems like it may be. That's 100 over what was advertised as "standard", and going off previous formation costs, could be 4 Valkyrie Squadrons (48+ models, with some upgrades), or a crapload of Battlepods. That's a lot of stuff to get done to Adepticon standard in 8 weeks. Heck, according to some reports it's a lot of stuff to get ASSEMBLED in 8 weeks.
And not one to do on a cheap budget. It's the elements of two core boxes for UEDF (2 Valk, 2 Dest), and if I'm not mistaken, a minimum of more than 3 core boxes to field a Zentradi force (cause the core box only really gives one Z Formation). Less so (obviously) for KS backers (cause of the extras in a BattleCry pledge).
There's also no mention of the "imminent" FAQ/Errata, so the "based on the RRPGT rule book" might conflict with some of the changes allegedly coming down the pipe. Cost and quantity of a certain Valkyrie missile package being one.
EDIT: And yeah, Forar appears to have conflated the two character specific rules. You must take a character, and you may take your own. Two separate restrictions.
Joyboozer wrote: Ha, that fethwit bad syntax got a c&d, classic!
His melt down was pretty funny. Considering that there's employees of both PB and HG on the page maybe shouting from the mountains that you are selling knock off minis isn't the best of ideas? His understanding of IP laws is pretty bad too, he doesn't need to sell a single item they can still go after him for reproduction and distribution even if he doesn't make a dime on it.
PB did what people asked, which was to find a way to keep the fees and taxes down.
PB could have mailed them from the US a month ago, with accurate and current MSRP values on the manifests, rather than containerizing them to save on VAT / Import / Customs charges.
So you have to wait? Guess what, everyone has waited for this, and we've got even more waiting yet again. I'm just thankful that PB is committed to actually delivering. I see way too many KS fail to deliver (e.g. Imbrian Arts). Getting the toys we paid for restores a little faith.
So if they're just getting container quotes for AU/NZ, wtf aren't they shipping out the ROW stuff while waiting for quotes? According to them, AU/NZ has been all packed up. I mean, how on earth do these people work? This is how much PB cares.
As for the rest of the world retailers that should not be able to get the goods, I'm not sure PB understands how modern commercialism works.
Also, I don't really understand why the hell aren't they shipping (or better yet, why haven't they shipped already) the stuff to ROW backers not from the EU/Australia.
What is the excuse in that case, exactly, seeing as they don't ship first to a central location?
PB did what people asked, which was to find a way to keep the fees and taxes down.
PB could have mailed them from the US a month ago, with accurate and current MSRP values on the manifests, rather than containerizing them to save on VAT / Import / Customs charges.
So you have to wait? Guess what, everyone has waited for this, and we've got even more waiting yet again. I'm just thankful that PB is committed to actually delivering. I see way too many KS fail to deliver (e.g. Imbrian Arts). Getting the toys we paid for restores a little faith.
Seriously? Four months past when it was released to the US, with in all likelihood two more months to go, before AU/EU get theirs, and you don't know what they're whining about? Everyone has to wait? That's kind of Orwellian. "But some people have to wait more equal times than others". If you don't think a similar percentage of North American backers (which would far outstrip what we've seen) would be furious waiting 6+ months after release, but it being available in their local LGS, then I'm at a loss.
Sorry, this is all on Palladium. Based on the last two large orders I've had shipped from the US of similar size (Fantasy Flight and WarStore), the amount I paid for shipping, taking into account the actual fee charged, and the amount on each base game that was already included (it wasn't free to send to US customers, just comparatively not much), I more than paid for the shipping on what I ordered. That Palladium decided to split into waves because they were that far behind, and so requiring two shipments, is completely their responsibility. And they weren't being altruistic when they split waves. They wanted to go retail, and it's the only way they could do it without having American backers angry at them.
Even if you dismiss that, the fact that they waited at least THREE MONTHS to get quotes for shipping (they should have been able to get accurate estimates 6 months ago), got stung an extra month because they waited until just before the holidays, and still haven't sorted it out as of today's Update. Though it's hoped it'll be later this week if you take their word for it. The likelihood is, it wasn't done because it wasn't important. Because RoW backers had already paid (and don't have a whole lot of recourse), and they wanted to go retail.
As for the costs, to save on VAT/Import/Customs? For the EU that's particularly relevant. On my order? If they'd listed what I'd paid (not MSRP*), It'd have been nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nil. Big fat O. They're doing it that way because THEY screwed up, but aren't willing to pay the price (higher shipping only because of split orders). They've distanced themselves on the VAT thing ("it should", "we hope", no longer "you won't"), and they also haven't answered the question on whether Australian orders won't have Customs charges passed on to them. It's likely ~20% of whatever AUSCustoms calculates the value of the entire shipment as (including the shipment costs and brokerage fees), whereas most backers (those spending less than $1000AUS, at the time about parity with the US dollar), wouldn't pay anything. So it's not "saving" us anything. It's saving them. And quite possibly, COSTING us.
* Using the MSRP value on the manifests is a strawman. We weren't charged that, and PB aren't going to claim that on the KS pledges. It might get evaluated at that before factoring in wholesale (now that it's been palletized), but it was a misleading argument to put forth.
You might not think it's a big deal. But then again, you've gotten your stuff from Wave 1, and are looking forward to the next bits. Not everyone is in that position.
PB did what people asked, which was to find a way to keep the fees and taxes down.
PB could have mailed them from the US a month ago, with accurate and current MSRP values on the manifests, rather than containerizing them to save on VAT / Import / Customs charges.
So you have to wait? Guess what, everyone has waited for this, and we've got even more waiting yet again. I'm just thankful that PB is committed to actually delivering. I see way too many KS fail to deliver (e.g. Imbrian Arts). Getting the toys we paid for restores a little faith.
In my mind I'm kicking you repeatedly in the groin as hard as possible, can you feel anything?
If a container of goods comes into the EU then the importer has to pay any and all VAT/Import Duty when it lands so there is no way for Palladium to pass that onto backers,
so the good news is you wont have anything to pay
the bad news is if Palladium is genuinely as confused about this as it seems they might just end up with an unexpected bill from their drop shipper which they don't want (can't?) pay which could lead to further delays
Step 1) Aus pledges to be shipped.
Step 2) RoW to follow only when step 1 is complete.
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Profit!!!
WTF? No, really, WTF? If Step 2 is done before Step 1, will western civilization as we know it collapse? I'm probably the only schmuck from my country in on this. Why must my box sit on a shelf collecting dust waiting for the Aus pallets/container/whatever to leave on it's exotic holiday? (Ditto for all the other RoW backers.)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: If a container of goods comes into the EU then the importer has to pay any and all VAT/Import Duty when it lands so there is no way for Palladium to pass that onto backers,
so the good news is you wont have anything to pay
the bad news is if Palladium is genuinely as confused about this as it seems they might just end up with an unexpected bill from their drop shipper which they don't want (can't?) pay which could lead to further delays
That's assuming that they don't add either a COD component, or require payment of a share of the original bill before their package is shipped. It's incredibly unlikely that the EU importer is going to eat the VAT cost. So either PB have to pony that up, or it'll get passed on to the end customer. And while it shouldn't, and probably won't happen, that PB have been very hesitant in this (and the Australian) situation, to say those costs won't be passed on in those two regions, there still remains a chance to be hosed, but good.
Other countries, well, they're SOL. Though PB/ND did poorly answer that in the Kickstarter FAQ.
The issue with Australia is that if the orders HAD been sent direct, there would be NO fees for a majority (if not all) backers. That they sent it in this manner, that it may accrue Customs fees, and those fees may be passed on to customers... Well... Yeah.
JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't care about any of that stuff. Finish the fething KS, and give me my damn toys!
JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't see what EU / Oz is whining about.
PB did what people asked, which was to find a way to keep the fees and taxes down.
PB could have mailed them from the US a month ago, with accurate and current MSRP values on the manifests, rather than containerizing them to save on VAT / Import / Customs charges.
So you have to wait? Guess what, everyone has waited for this, and we've got even more waiting yet again. I'm just thankful that PB is committed to actually delivering. I see way too many KS fail to deliver (e.g. Imbrian Arts). Getting the toys we paid for restores a little faith.
Don't you think that it is more than a bit ironic to bemoan people for whining because they don't have their stuff already, when you're doing exactly the same thing, in exactly the same thread, in exactly the same page?
Step 1) Aus pledges to be shipped.
Step 2) RoW to follow only when step 1 is complete.
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Profit!!!
WTF? No, really, WTF? If Step 2 is done before Step 1, will western civilization as we know it collapse? I'm probably the only schmuck from my country in on this. Why must my box sit on a shelf collecting dust waiting for the Aus pallets/container/whatever to leave on it's exotic holiday? (Ditto for all the other RoW backers.)
I see that. And no, it makes no sense. It doesn't even make sense in the possibility of AU/EU complaining because someone got theirs a little earlier, because unless they sit on their hands for about a month between steps 1 and 2, it'll STILL likely arrive in South Africa, Singapore, or any other RoWer before it arrives in AU (and depending on the US ports situation, possibly the EU). Air packages from the US take 7-10 days for me. Shipwise, with the logistics tacked onto the end? 6-8 weeks with "smooth sailing" (Hah! A pun!). But given the port situation? Who knows.
As soon as they had AU boxed up (unless they're still doing that, though it's pretty much stated as not), they should have gone straight into RoW. And even with the added complications of paperwork, should not take that long. They were shipping out in the "thousand per week" when it mattered. A couple hundred (at most, if I've done my math right) boxes shouldn't take that long.
But it's PB. When in doubt, procrastinate. When forced into action, drag your feet. When called on it, deflect blame. It appears to be how they roll.
And obviously the sensible thing to do for wave 2 would be to send APAC rewards first, then EU, then Canada, then ROW, then continental US LAST.
That way they would stand a snowballs chance of getting them delivered within a few weeks of each other.
Chances of PB actually doing it this way: Get Real!
1/ They're not that intelligent.
2/ That would delay getting the wave 2 non-exclusive product to retail.
and
3/ They're NOT that intelligent.
I realise that point 3 is a repeat, but though it was such a good point it deserved mentioning twice.
And "The ship that will take our container to the UK has experienced delays. It docked in Oakland yesterday after sitting off the coast waiting for almost a week. I know, because I’ve been watching it sit there for the last several days" WTF! Get off your butt and pack stuff and send to ROW backers! EU and APAC delays are now out of PB's hands (And I bet they are having a drink about that. We can no longer blame them for not getting our stuff to us quicker. Sheesh!) but you could be speeding ROW backer rewards to them.
"I’m sorry, guys. We had no idea it would take this long for your stuff to reach you. When we shipped it out over a month ago, we thought it would be aboard ship and nearly to the UK or even there and shipping by now" Well now they do actually have a clue. Wonder how that'll affect wave 2?
"Every new problem and delay is, as Kevin would say, “a dagger in our hearts.” If it upsets you, it kills us and hurts our reputation". The amount of "Upset" has obviously killed them. This is why we are facing such problems now - Zombie Kevin!
feth palladium. 2 years after the expected release and 6 months after North America is not acceptable. And they think they can wash their hands of any charges accrued through their negligence? What a bunch of class A gak.
I hope they all choke the next time Kevin passes around the koolaid.
warboss wrote: Where does it say enforced? I saw that you "MAY" create your own character but not that you must. I don't have the rules with me at the moment but do squadron leaders count as characters? If not, a special would certainly do the trick to be your army commander.
No, at a glance I thought the "A Character must be selected as the overall commander of your force and noted on your army list." rule meant having to use a custom character, but I suppose Rick or Roy or Max could just as easily be leading the squad.
That said, it's a shame they can't ship to ROW locations, becau...
Palladium shout outs over their Holiday Grab Bags wrote:I.P. in Vanves, France, writes:
Frank in Bavaria, Germany, writes:
B.W. in Barnstaple, Devon, Great Britain, writes:
Oh, I guess if you're willing to pay extra they are willing to ship to the Rest of the World.
JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't care about any of that stuff. Finish the fething KS, and give me my damn toys!
JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't see what EU / Oz is whining about.
PB did what people asked, which was to find a way to keep the fees and taxes down.
PB could have mailed them from the US a month ago, with accurate and current MSRP values on the manifests, rather than containerizing them to save on VAT / Import / Customs charges.
So you have to wait? Guess what, everyone has waited for this, and we've got even more waiting yet again. I'm just thankful that PB is committed to actually delivering. I see way too many KS fail to deliver (e.g. Imbrian Arts). Getting the toys we paid for restores a little faith.
Don't you think that it is more than a bit ironic to bemoan people for whining because they don't have their stuff already, when you're doing exactly the same thing, in exactly the same thread, in exactly the same page?
It's not ironic but more accurately hypocritical. He's complaining about getting the remainder of his items while bemoaning folks who are unhappy because they've yet to receive anything. I'm sure ROW backers would rather be in the situation where they have wave 1 and are nervous about getting wave 2 just like he is instead of sitting for almost 2 years with nothing to show for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Conrad Turner wrote: And obviously the sensible thing to do for wave 2 would be to send APAC rewards first, then EU, then Canada, then ROW, then continental US LAST.
That way they would stand a snowballs chance of getting them delivered within a few weeks of each other.
Chances of PB actually doing it this way: Get Real!
That I'd disagree with and not because of my own location in the US. They should try to do the most good for the greatest amount first which means shipping "locally" (for them) first. I also wouldn't bemoan a EU campaign for shipping local EU orders to get the greatest number of orders out the door in the shortest amount of time. That said, I also don't think they should sell anything anywhere else until they've made an honest effort of getting all the orders out the door which obviously didn't happen during wave 1.
I fully expect them to try the same crap again and learn nothing from this year's Gencon debacle and the spanking that karma gave them. I fully expect their top priority to be getting wave 2 for sale at gencon 2015 with backers being an afterthought to be addressed only if that primary goal is met (beyond just a token amount of pledges being sent to fan friends first to give a grain of truth to a claim of them sending out pledges before selling).
That does remind me that I should start the wave 2 Gencon doomsday 2015 clock.
warboss wrote: I fully expect them to try the same crap again and learn nothing from this year's Gencon debacle and the spanking that karma gave them. I fully expect their top priority to be getting wave 2 for sale at gencon 2015 with backers being an afterthought to be addressed only if that primary goal is met (beyond just a token amount of pledges being sent to fan friends first to give a grain of truth to a claim of them sending out pledges before selling).
That does remind me that I should start the wave 2 Gencon doomsday 2015 clock.
They will. They have to give the white knights something to defend, even if it is a single flower growing in the center of a waste treatment center retention pond.
Just remember that every time they voluntarily break a promise that it hurts them more than it hurts you. According to the latest update, every delay is like "a dagger in our hearts" that they promptly remove and place squarely in pledgers' collective backs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Morgan:
I took a peek over at the Palladium forums and had a response to your post there. I suspect I'm off my 3 month ban for pre-crime trolling (yes... I got punished AHEAD of trolling the NEXT kickstarter by NMI) but I don't care to try to login and find out.
You mentioned a very unlikely scenario of folks with professionally painted armies that lose all their games and getting a higher score and winning the tourney while those who shabbily paint and win every game lose.
You're making ALOT of incorrect assumptions there. While the exact numbers vary, most tournies that have painting requirements and scoring still have the actual game score be the single largest part of score. It is usually at least twice that of any other category and frequently at least half of the total score. Your scenario is a bit fear mongering frankly. That said, this is palladium we're talking about so they could place the greatest weight on the alphabetical order of the player's middle names for all we know... but your presented scenario for well run tournies is incredibly unlikely.
I took a peek over at the Palladium forums and had a response to your post there. I suspect I'm off my 3 month ban for pre-crime trolling (yes... I got punished AHEAD of trolling the NEXT kickstarter by NMI) but I don't care to try to login and find out.
Don't blame you. It's a pretty toxic atmosphere over there for people critical of PB.
warboss wrote: You mentioned a very unlikely scenario of folks with professionally painted armies that lose all their games and getting a higher score and winning the tourney while those who shabbily paint and win every game lose.
Actually, I said that the hypothetical Forar would beat the hypothetical Jaymz. Never said that hForar would win.
warboss wrote: You're making ALOT of incorrect assumptions there. While the exact numbers vary, most tournies that have painting requirements and scoring still have the actual game score be the single largest part of score. It is usually at least twice that of any other category and frequently at least half of the total score. Your scenario is a bit fear mongering frankly. That said, this is palladium we're talking about so they could place the greatest weight on the alphabetical order of the player's middle names for all we know... but your presented scenario for well run tournies is incredibly unlikely.
And I may be making several incorrect assumptions. But I did specifically state "assuming the categories are evenly distributed". I wouldn't expect a properly run tournament to have 4/6 of the tourney points tied to the modelling side, and 1/6 being actual gameplay, but the fact that that's not spelled out in the AdeptiCon document means the possibility shouldn't be discounted. Heck, that the four modelling aspects are all separately bulleted, rather than "Painting/Theme/Conversion/Display Board" (still don't know what that last one means), and are placed higher up, could mean they have a HIGHER weight than the other two.
The whole point of that post was to put forth a hypothetical of the absurd, so if the assumptions made do have foundation, they can hopefully be corrected before it becomes an issue. The number of times during the campaign where people have warned Palladium about a hole, pointed out the hole, and begged them not to step in the hole, only to watch PB stumble into the hole regardless, is freaky common. And as you admit, when it comes to PB, anything is possible. Including stepping into this hole.
@Warboss: while that's a point we've been over (err, somewhere, there's a lot of conversing going on), the sheet in question doesn't lay out the weighing of those different factors, just lists them.
If games are worth 75% and the others are 5% apiece, it's less of an issue. If they're equally weighted, it's kind of a problem if some nice dude with pro painted figures/'display' goes 0-4 and walks off with first prize.
I'm sure the Venn Diagram of 'people who care/spend enough time to master a game' and 'people who are inclined to either learn to paint like a master or pay to have someone due it' has significant overlap, but I have a hard time believing that standard tournament rules would reward first place to someone with less than a 75% win ratio, even with 'good sportsmanship' and 'ballin' golden daemon painting' as tie breakers.
But as I've often admitted, I am not a warhammer player of any sort, so I haven't actually played in such tournaments to know. While painting requirements and little bumps or extra prizes for well painted figures/conversions were a thing I can vaguely recall during my time watching Malifaux, I can't recall anyone 'winning a tournament' without, y'know, actually winning a bunch of games too.
warboss wrote: That I'd disagree with and not because of my own location in the US. They should try to do the most good for the greatest amount first which means shipping "locally" (for them) first. I also wouldn't bemoan a EU campaign for shipping local EU orders to get the greatest number of orders out the door in the shortest amount of time. That said, I also don't think they should sell anything anywhere else until they've made an honest effort of getting all the orders out the door which obviously didn't happen during wave 1.
<Not angry, little sad and certainly sarcastic, but not angry> (Well, not angry at Warboss, certainly. Kev's a different matter!)
So you'd be happy that "The most good" means that anywhere outside of mainland US gets tanked for a second time running. The fact is it may well spell the death of the game outside the continental US - which the more I think about it, the less bothered about that outcome I am.
PB have 'annoyed' every non-US backer and the word-of-mouth is spreading. Retailers shouldn't have RRT for sale in the UK, well they do. Kevin moaning that they shouldn't be selling before backers get theirs - especially after items have been sold and are up for pre-order - has as much effect in his favour as farting in a colander. If PB don't get wave 2 to us in a much improved manner - and I'm not stopping my clock just because they posted me some decals from the US - then they might as well just turn around and deny that anything outside of the US exists.
How about the thought that "The most good" would be getting ALL backers their rewards in a timely manner. If you can say that you have shipped ALL rewards, what can people complain about when you send to retail? And if all rewards have shipped, you don't need to worry about which country you are retailing into, because backers will have the rewards shortly anyway, right? And EU, AU, and RoW being able to order, and receive, from US retailers before pledges get to them means that Kev's squeeling that "It shouldn't happen" is a complete waste of air. Getting stuff for a game in dribs and drabs WILL kill any interest from non-fans. That bloke on the street that gets tempted when he sees a couple of guys having a game may buy some stuff, but not if he's told "That's because we were backers. They've released it to retail in the states, but you have to order from there if you want anything but the base units. And there aren't enough of them in the base box to field an army for the upcoming sanctioned tournament without going and ordering add-on sets from America, but on the bright side - what you pay in postage will only make it as dear as you would have paid anyway!"
There is no way, given their previous perfomance, that they can afford to say "No retail until all backer rewards have shipped." but how crazy is it that the Australian rewards were sent from China to the US, then back to AU. Surely it's possible that they could have been shipped directly from China? OH, no. That won't work either, can't have anyone but US citizens getting their rewards first! What didn't work in Wave 1 ....... won't work in wave 2. They are not going to pull some mysterious trick out of their bag for wave 2 so it all goes like clockwork. they are still going to have problems with customs, they are still having problems with shipping, and they seem to think that it will all magically work properly next time round.
RRT is currently 379 days late and counting. I dare Kevin to stop that clock in 2015!
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, I just want to see that everything gets delivered AT ALL, regardless of when.
Is the ROW reall so stupid that they don't get that basic concept?
I'm sure that you have no problem telling PB that they can delay your shipment till everything else is sent out then, so that they can use the time they spend shipping your product on other people who care about WHEN they get their product.
Also, I'm not sure it's the ROW part of this debate that's being 'reall so stupid'
The funny thing is that, from the numbers I've run and the statements by Palladium, US citizens make up the *vast majority* of the backers. Somewhere between 3,000 and 4,000, or around 75-85%.
So especially in a case where they're not sending to recipients individually, but merely boxing up a big pallet to ship off to a distribution center, I don't see how it has helped them to hold those for last.
And ROW where apparently the paperwork isn't really all that complicated, given that people are responsible for the fees? So it's basically "put down address, fill out a few boxes, put in mail"? We're not talking about them bartering with a half dozen sources, they're sending things in the mail!
I've mailed things to the US, Australia, and other international destinations. I didn't need to sit down with a slide rule and a half dozen college textbooks to sort it out. And I didn't have an 'expert shipping consultant' assisting me either.
Look, yes, the container situation ended up being a clusterfeth, but they were supposed to have enough containers to do the vast majority of backers by the end of October, if not sometime in November. Holidays and grab bags (*eye roll*) and everything, they've had at least 2 (if not possibly 3) months to sort that gak out and they're still getting quotes.
Man, shipping to Australia must be a simply Herculean task.
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, I just want to see that everything gets delivered AT ALL, regardless of when.
Is the ROW reall so stupid that they don't get that basic concept?
Classy.
Which is totally why you said "give me my damn toys!", with 'me' being used in an entirely open ended 'everyone in the world, especially those poor frustrated ROW backers who still don't have gak and possibly won't a full half year after the US got theirs'.
Truly you are the most kind hearted and empathic of souls.
And are in no way digging yourself deeper calling people's intelligence into question. Kind hearted!
Forar wrote: @Warboss: while that's a point we've been over (err, somewhere, there's a lot of conversing going on), the sheet in question doesn't lay out the weighing of those different factors, just lists them.
If games are worth 75% and the others are 5% apiece, it's less of an issue. If they're equally weighted, it's kind of a problem if some nice dude with pro painted figures/'display' goes 0-4 and walks off with first prize.
I'm sure the Venn Diagram of 'people who care/spend enough time to master a game' and 'people who are inclined to either learn to paint like a master or pay to have someone due it' has significant overlap, but I have a hard time believing that standard tournament rules would reward first place to someone with less than a 75% win ratio, even with 'good sportsmanship' and 'ballin' golden daemon painting' as tie breakers.
Again, the scenario you're talking about assumes that EVERYONE else got exactly zero on EVERY painting score. Even in the case of equal weighting, someone who loses every game and gets a perfect score on painting would LOSE to someone who won every game and got a 1% score on painting. So even in your absurd example, someone who just meets the minimum 3 color painting requirements but wins every game "wins" the tourney over the guy who got his army painted for one million dollars and lost every game. Once you actually plug in realistically encountered weighting, the soft score end up being the tipping point between players of roughly equal game scores. Then things get even more nuanced when games are not just scored by simple W/L but rather with how badly or well you won or lost. The 0-4 W/L and all versus nothing painting scenario just isn't realistic nor common. That said, if someone does have a pro painted army done by a 3rd party then they shouldn't be eligible to win a specific painting prize. Ideally, a large tourney should have individual awards for best general, sportsmanship, and painting as well as an overall "renaissance" winner where all three scores are combined. That isn't feasible for small events with low turnouts where you just have a single combined score.
So you'd be happy that "The most good" means that anywhere outside of mainland US gets tanked for a second time running. The fact is it may well spell the death of the game outside the continental US - which the more I think about it, the less bothered about that outcome I am.
PB have 'annoyed' every non-US backer and the word-of-mouth is spreading.
I take offense to that! Please remove the "non-US" part of your post and plenty of US backers are unhappy as well! The doucheness of Palladium is not limited to ROW shipping (although that is currently and deservedly at the forefront right now).
As for the first part, I wouldn't be "happy" but it makes sense. Get the most product out to the most number of individual backers. In the end, if you can make 100 people happy with smaller orders that are local that still beats out making 30 people with bigger orders much further away happy. 100>30. It's a matter of numbers. That makes sense to me as long as it is done methodically and impartially. YMMV. That obviously didn't happen in wave 1 either though since Palladium specifically tailored production MONTHS before the vote towards what they wanted to SELL at gencon and not what would make the most backers happy. It's pathetic that in the first month and a half, they only got about 5% of the orders out due to their own greed.
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, I just want to see that everything gets delivered AT ALL, regardless of when.
Is the ROW reall so stupid that they don't get that basic concept?
I'm sure that you have no problem telling PB that they can delay your shipment till everything else is sent out then, so that they can use the time they spend shipping your product on other people who care about WHEN they get their product.
Given my backlog, that would be fine. It's not like I didn't have anything else to do while I waited for the first batch to arrive, and it's not like I'm lacking a vast list of things to work on while other stuff is in progress. If Wave 2 takes another year, fine by me.
The only important bit is that it arrives at some point.
Every new problem and delay is, as Kevin would say, “a dagger in our hearts.” If it upsets you, it kills us and hurts our reputation.
I am unsure which reference to use:
"Our lady of sorrows" referencing the 7 sorrows of the virgin Mary depicting 7 daggers in her heart...
OR
From the Omen: the seven ancient daggers of Megiddo used to kill the anti-Christ.
I suppose at the very least seeing these delays to the international backers it is hard to complain when you have the darn things in-hand.
I think the new complaints will be PB setting the bar of 400 points and well painted models.
It begs the question of what right do they have to demand these things that would take no small amount of effort?
It is just them trying to use their customers to be their advertising department (make those darn models shiny you dogs!).
I will now go look for the seven signs of how PB's reputation could possibly be hurt.
Just to point it out again, from what I've read, it appears to be a 'side event' being held by some dude (possibly the guy who ran a similar set of games during Gencon last year?), not the 'tournament' that is being run by Palladium's "Megaversal Ambassador" program, whom seem to know no more about this than we do.
However, as noted previously, PB/the MA crew now kind of need to sort out what they ARE going to do sooner rather than later, lest this become something of a precedent.
So while it deserves attention and critique, this isn't officially Palladium's stance. Though they really should clarify that to keep everyone on the same page.
I suspect your about 25 years too late. Muddled and confusing rules from palladium (whether in a game or regarding an event) are the long standing precedent. Hey, don't blame me... you're the one who showed me the low hanging fruit! In any case, clarification will likely come from the MA organizer and not PB. They need to have a fall guy to blame if things go badly even if it was at their direct behest!
warboss wrote: As for the first part, I wouldn't be "happy" but it makes sense. Get the most product out to the most number of individual backers. In the end, if you can make 100 people happy with smaller orders that are local that still beats out making 30 people with bigger orders much further away happy. 100>30. It's a matter of numbers. That makes sense to me as long as it is done methodically and impartially. YMMV. That obviously didn't happen in wave 1 either though since Palladium specifically tailored production MONTHS before the vote towards what they wanted to SELL at gencon and not what would make the most backers happy. It's pathetic that in the first month and a half, they only got about 5% of the orders out due to their own greed.
My thinking is this.
As AU and EU are just "Put boxes on pallets, shrink wrap, and call for containers." then exactly how much would continental US backers have been put out to wait the extra couple of days - week at most - it SHOULD have taken them to do that. Say 3,500 backers not put out that much having to wait a week, or 1,500 getting really pissed waiting several months. If it was my business, I know what I'd do. And as it has to be split into 2 waves, why not do it the other way next time? Gives you an opportunity to find out which causes less hassle and complaints whilst maybe appeasing the disgruntled 1,500 somewhat. Saves face and may mean more sales in future.
Since they've always seemed to be limited by this or that bit, and since the container to the EU or AUS could not set off until they had very single bit needed for everybody (plus spares for shipping loss damage?)
It would potentially have taken ages (it's hard to be certain as we never quite got clear what individual containers had in)
Container 1 was purely Core Boxes and a couple (but not all) of the expansions. I believe Container 2 was the first to have Battle Cry Bonus Bags in it. Given that Aus/NZ only seems to have around 200-300'ish backers, unless they all got Showdown and Reckless tiers, presumably they could have covered those earlier. By C3 at the latest, as I recall.
Which would have been hillarious, because of the way the containers were actually delivered, they *would* have sent a big pile off to AUS/NZ and perhaps ROW/Europe and ended up with weeks and weeks of waiting for more materials to arrive. US and Canadian backers would've likely been spitting venom by the time their boxes actually got out there.
It would've bitten them in the ass in reverse, but they were *so* convinced that it was 'just a little longer' that unless they were prescient (or knew more than they let on), it wouldn't have been an unreasonable approach to take.
I mean, some folks like to point out that the US had the vast majority of the backers! And, yeah, it seems that they do! Which should mean that it wouldn't be that big a deal to fire off a couple hundred boxes out of the thousands and thousands that are coming to get an entire continent taken care of. Doubly so those places where they're using a local re-distributor. Box up orders, put on pallets, fire off to a container.
Of course, at this point they were over half a year late, missed Gencon, and presumably wanted to get as many boxes in as many hands as cheaply as possible. Which I can't entirely disagree with, even if it has played out to mean that said short term thinking has led to some backers getting royally fethed on delivery, and seems to be getting worse by the week.
And don't forget, the problems of the first containers not having the stuff required to fire off the rewards for AU/EU was because they'd filled them with core boxes only in the hope they'd get them for sale at Gencon.
Had they been filled properly with the requirements for AU backers, they could quite probably have gotten them fired off earlier - probably without impacting speed of other region's reward shipments.
Still, what they did for wave 1 is something we can't change. I wonder if they'll have learned how hard international shipping is, what causes delays and frustration, and what may be a better idea on how to handle wave 2?
Conrad Turner wrote: Still, what they did for wave 1 is something we can't change. I wonder if they'll have learned how hard international shipping is, what causes delays and frustration, and what may be a better idea on how to handle wave 2?
I doubt it due to history.
PB seems to have that "not thought of here" attitude that if they do not handle the entire process it will all go to madness (when it has occasionally been the reverse result).
They should have engaged a company that specializes in international shipping and probably could have avoided some issues, get experts involved.
If they REALLY did not want to do that, they should have assigned someone over that year wait, to become "instant expert" and research all the best practices they could find.
It appears from what they communicated, that unless it is all lies, they are just now finding out some of the issues of shipping to the other side of the planet.
We should not be at a stage for surprises at this point (short of acts of god, customs does not count as a surprise).
<edit> Still expecting some cash grab for the Wave 2 shipment.
Something to the tune of: "We only budgeted initially for one shipment! You understand why we should not pay for this right?".
I am still upset when they told us the cost of "Battlecry" was not going to be any different if I ordered a second, then they added $40 (think that was the cost) last minute.
They feel like those ebay sellers that sell a cheap product and then charge double what you know costs for shipping.
Talizvar wrote: Still expecting some cash grab for the Wave 2 shipment. Something to the tune of: "We only budgeted initially for one shipment! You understand why we should not pay for this right?". I am still upset when they told us the cost of "Battlecry" was not going to be any different if I ordered a second, then they added $40 (think that was the cost) last minute. They feel like those ebay sellers that sell a cheap product and then charge double what you know costs for shipping.
That'll be the next expected big bad news. If they announce further delays? Still sucks but we've been through that a half dozen times (and hard to do with their new tactic of just not telling any dates ever). Selling wave 2 at gencon before shipping to backers? They tried and failed that already so we're expecting that douche move now. Announcing LE minis for sale that backers can't get? It's a classic and the original debacle. Shipping woes and shennanigans? We're still not even through the last of that half year process for wave 1. Showing subpar wave 2 minis in a piss poor manner? That was Palladium's 2013 Xmas presents to backers. Asking folks to pony up more money for their already paid for wave 2 is potentially the next big thing they're poised to screw up if you're pessimistic. So far, if you've responded to every update in a half glass empty fashion then you're batting 1000.
Talizvar wrote: <edit> Still expecting some cash grab for the Wave 2 shipment. Something to the tune of: "We only budgeted initially for one shipment! You understand why we should not pay for this right?". I am still upset when they told us the cost of "Battlecry" was not going to be any different if I ordered a second, then they added $40 (think that was the cost) last minute. They feel like those ebay sellers that sell a cheap product and then charge double what you know costs for shipping.
I don't know. I have very little faith in Palladium, except for them to feth up, but even I think that'd be a bridge too far. I wouldn't put it past them to offer "expidited shipping" for a premium, where you pay X and get put to the front of the line (domestic backers only). Or to go retail with some or most of it before shipping Wave 2 (in fact, I fully expect that if it gets to US Thanksgiving and it's still not fully out, as it was last year). Hell, I can see them doing a 2006 CoT-esque "Please give to the 'we are incompetent and cannot budget shipping' fund! Every dollar helps!" blatant cashgrab. I just can't see them demanding more money before shipping.
However, if it is a blanket "We need the funds to ship", to paraphrase Obi Wan Kenobi, "I felt a great disturbance in the Internets, as if five thousands voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened. ". It'd simply make every other controversial issue (Max&Miriya, SpartanGate, GenCon Vote, Non-Dom Shipping) be seen by PB as "those happy times when only a portion of our fanbase was out for blood".
Though I'm not sure they'd even be allowed to do that under KS T&C. If they can't provide to those who pledged, those pledgers are entitled to a refund. Be interesting to see how that works with a portion of the pledges having already been delivered.
Though I'm not sure they'd even be allowed to do that under KS T&C. If they can't provide to those who pledged, those pledgers are entitled to a refund. Be interesting to see how that works with a portion of the pledges having already been delivered.
I'll spoiler exactly what Kickstarter will do if palladium flagrantly breaks their T&C in the future.
And if they turn round and just say they aren't shipping any more product, it's a dead dog, then even I don't stand as much chance of getting my money back. They have after all shipped to me and I have received.
Never mind it's a $1* decal sheet out of a $150+ pledge, I've still received something for my money.
*Yes, I know that we ponied up $5 for each decal sheet that was asked for as an extra, but the customs declaration said it was woth $1, so it's worth $1, right?
Though I'm not sure they'd even be allowed to do that under KS T&C. If they can't provide to those who pledged, those pledgers are entitled to a refund. Be interesting to see how that works with a portion of the pledges having already been delivered.
I'll spoiler exactly what Kickstarter will do if palladium flagrantly breaks their T&C in the future.
The difference between faith and feth is the vowels; AI in the former and E in the latter. All the consonants match.
Laying out the vowels of the English alphabet is typically done in order so: A E I O U (sometimes Y).
E, the vowel in feth, is the one between A and I, the ones in faith. So, if one were to badly underestimate your vowel costs and have to half-ass a solution where you just go down the middle...
well right now I foresee one of 2 things happening before wave 2 is even shipped:
1: PB starts another KS for the next series of RoboTech
2: PB opens up the backerkit ordering form.
sorry but in my Opinion even though many disagree I feel that PB has run out of money, its the only thing that explains the delays in RoW shipping and wave 2, I feel like the backers are being given the stall treatment.
Asterios wrote: well right now I foresee one of 2 things happening before wave 2 is even shipped:
1: PB starts another KS for the next series of RoboTech
2: PB opens up the backerkit ordering form.
sorry but in my Opinion even though many disagree I feel that PB has run out of money, its the only thing that explains the delays in RoW shipping and wave 2, I feel like the backers are being given the stall treatment.
Well, to be fair the other option is "Complete and total incompetence".
Every moment they don't ship to ROW is another moment they still have hold of that cash.
Or maybe the actual answer is "all of the above" and they aren't shipping ROW so they can keep hold of that money so that they can actually afford to get out Wave 2 before dying.
But what does it matter guys? I have it on the good authority of some random dudes on the internet that even with all the bumps in the road and bad publicity that their next KS will totally still fund!
And that's all that's important, right!?
And the daggers in the heart! Their rep is at jeopardy and they are just so super sorry!
Or, maybe it really is a major PITA to arrange non-US shipping for small numbers of people across the globe, above and beyond jacked US postage and global customs fees...
JohnHwangDD wrote: Or, maybe it really is a major PITA to arrange non-US shipping for small numbers of people across the globe, above and beyond jacked US postage and global customs fees...
or maybe it only takes the time to pack up the stuff, fill out the customs form and ship product out, seriously John, no matter how they look at it, its not going to get cheaper and they will not find a cheaper option to do so, so why are they dragging their heals? unless they don't have the money? or they just don't care for those backers?
I know it is long dead history but I am still shaking my head over this:
How could PB have in good faith thought they could actually ship all the models of the KS before the year was out when it closed.
I cannot even stretch this to incompetence no matter how hard I try.
It is this maddening reoccurring thought that cries BS when they claim so hard that they care and are doing their honest best.
I would like this company to grow-up and develop their product on their own dime.
At least they will not have to feel defensive on not posting timelines.
Wonder what company they will use as a front... errr... Trojan hor... ummm "developer" to lead (temporarily) the next project.
It would take fortitude like no-other to go into a KS with just their name and Harmony Gold... the laughter would be painful.
Bah, I am kicking them again... constructive things to say is: I got models and am building them, slowly mind you, but getting good results.
Cannot wait to paint, then I could convince myself it was all worth it.
Supposedly, PB went through the freight forwarding route, with pallets on boats. That's a very slow process, of packing, palletizing, containerizing, etc.
That's because PB painted themselves into a corner by saying they would be EU friendly, with no extra VAT charges. That was a huge mistake.
PB totally screwed themselves by not tacking on a huge markup to cover international shipping charges and administration.
Especially now that UPS and FedEx are both moving to DimWt charges and USPS raised rates even further.
I bet PB is taking a massive loss on every international backer.
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Talizvar wrote: Wonder what company they will use as a front... errr... Trojan hor... ummm "developer" to lead (temporarily) the next project.
I'm pretty sure it won't be Soda Pop / Ninja Division. It's amusing that SPM/ND won't say a peep about RRT.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Supposedly, PB went through the freight forwarding route, with pallets on boats. That's a very slow process, of packing, palletizing, containerizing, etc.
That's because PB painted themselves into a corner by saying they would be EU friendly, with no extra VAT charges. That was a huge mistake.
PB totally screwed themselves by not tacking on a huge markup to cover international shipping charges and administration.
Especially now that UPS and FedEx are both moving to DimWt charges and USPS raised rates even further.
I bet PB is taking a massive loss on every international backer.
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Talizvar wrote: Wonder what company they will use as a front... errr... Trojan hor... ummm "developer" to lead (temporarily) the next project.
I'm pretty sure it won't be Soda Pop / Ninja Division. It's amusing that SPM/ND won't say a peep about RRT.
I''m sure ND is trying to remove themselves from this disaster as much as possible.
Also John, my point has nothing to do with AU or UK/Europe backers, but everyone else in those other countries not being containerized, why were their products not shipped? especially considering the only thing that is going to happen from delaying shipping to them is the shipping costs skyrocketing.
I think PB has made every answer to explain why things are they way they are. They're just not saying what people want to hear, and making things happen the way that people want.
And yeah, the 1-year delay is just killing them on shipping. Amusing that low gas doesn't translate into removal of UPS fuel surcharges.
If they do another project, I bet they simply make it US-only.
Man, if I'm really lucky, USPS will raise its rates again right before PB gets around to shipping mine. Make it happen USPS
Automatically Appended Next Post: Really? Have they explained why they're waiting for AU to ship before shipping out ROW? When according to them, AU is packed up and just waiting for a container?
They've nearly had two years to sort out the basics, and almost half a year to figure out the particulars. They finished up North American distribution around two months ago, and even accepting holidays for some hold ups, they still don't have an answer for around 250-300 backers, European distribution isn't even on the water yet, and a smattering of others are just now being looked at.
I'm going to guess that those handful of boxes going to Singapore aren't going to be any cheaper today than they would've been a month or two or three ago.
Here's a fun thought; we're nearly 5 months into just the *shipping of wave one* of this fiasco.
Which is roughly 2 months less than they originally estimated to do ALL OF IT. Every figure, designed, punched and shipped.
I mean, think about that for a second.
When your final timeframe is in the 400-500% of original estimate, "ooops" doesn't quite cover it.
As for making their next project US only, that'd be their prerogative. Even with these shenanigans I'm sure they'd fund just fine.
But it'd also be admitting that they aren't ready for the big leagues. To walk with 'small companies' like Wyrd that manage to pull off global distribution without a fraction of the bullgak, and with a quarter century less time doing business.
I'm glad you seem to be happy with how they do business. Seriously, rah rah, hooray Palladium for you and your handful of figures for a diorama or whatever you're doing.
I'll lament what could have been in terms of a wide scale game, not just a couple dozen fiddly mini-models that it seems might be lucky to end up on a shelf (probably just in a box, shelf space is at a premium).
John, I am getting old and a bit slow but I do not see what you are driving at.
Although a minority the RoW contributed probably at least $250k to the cause and get you some of those extra stretch goals.
If the route was for EU and possibly Australasian customer was always going to be by container so be it , PB have had 18 months to plan for this.
However the impression is PB do not make long term plans and fly by the seat of Kev's pants
The fly in the ointment was their decssion to rush out the US retail orders to grab a quick buck - consequently sending product to US distrution centres to flog world wide. Eiither way it was a big finger to the RoW.
Naw, I still cannot find a logical reason for not sending out the RoW pledges, even at a trickle of a hundred or so a week - it would have been done by now.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Or, maybe it really is a major PITA to arrange non-US shipping for small numbers of people across the globe, above and beyond jacked US postage and global customs fees...
I mean, really, thousands of companies manage to ship things globally every day. They're not re-inventing the fething wheel here.
They themselves manage to ship things around the world every year, books and Holiday Grab Bags and pencils (...) and who knows what else. This whole "shipping is expensive and time consuming" thing was a joke months ago, but it has long since stopped being funny.
Or do I need to go grab the quotes from the Happy Holiday Grab Bag Buyers ($84 worth of signed product or more, maybe even $92 worth!) that got them recently in Germany, France and Britain.
Apparently it didn't take them more than a couple of weeks, and last time I checked, a half dozen'ish of their books is both sizable and heavy.
Clearly, the shipping has not gone well. But it's amazing how much malice many are reading into delays and problems which are completely outsite their control.
I guess I expect more professionalism out of a company that lauds being in business for a third of a century and has been shipping product globally for decades.
Whether or not this is their biggest undertaking to date, "guys, mailing things is hard" is not what I want to hear from a startup of two guys in their parents basement, let alone one staffed with a half dozen grown adults, some of whom have been in business longer than some of their customers have been alive.
I mean at least for the tablescape ks, we know why shipping is so slow. Cause the creator doesn't have the cash on hand to pay for all the shipping at once.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Clearly, the shipping has not gone well. But it's amazing how much malice many are reading into delays and problems which are completely outsite their control.
That's fething nonsense.
Malice, yes some of their antics can inspire "evil intent" I certainly am not feeling immune.
The problem is they are running on empty for KS consumer good will, it had not been managed well.
If they had outlined a plan and showed steps of progress, many excuses (or good justification) would be evident for delays.
At the very least it could be reported incrementally rather the now helpful "no comment" for Wave 2.
They just seem to demonstrate they claim they run into one problem into another eyes wide open with no contingency plans.
I have helped deal with customers in the UK usually needing replacement parts under warranty: not too terribly hard.
Even arranged a service partner to hold stock for us of "wear" items, the "gee wiz" is "sticker shock", not "hard to do".
I have switched to believing ulterior motives (we are cheap!) and do not want to admit the real reason for the hold-up.
I cannot with good conscience bring myself to be naïve enough to think they could be that stupid and have such bad luck that all these last minute delays account for all the other time lost.
I am almost certain now that every single delay and "poor decision" could all be traced to spending as little money as possible that they could get away with.
That is the simplest answer that makes sense.
It certainly wouldn't be hindered by the fact they moved to 2 waves (significant increase in shipping costs, even if wave 2's boxes are likely significantly smaller; 27 figures versus 70, no core box, though add ons may influence that as well) or their complaints in one of the updates about the mold costs being double what they anticipated.
Even if they budgeted in a healthy cushion into their target numbers, those are pretty massive increases in their production and shipping costs.
So even if I don't follow some people's "omg maybe they're broke!" line of thought (Hi Rick!), it's also not much of a reach to note that they might not be quite as well off as they anticipated, based on their own words and actions.
Forar wrote: It certainly wouldn't be hindered by the fact they moved to 2 waves (significant increase in shipping costs, even if wave 2's boxes are likely significantly smaller; 27 figures versus 70, no core box, though add ons may influence that as well) or their complaints in one of the updates about the mold costs being double what they anticipated.
Even if they budgeted in a healthy cushion into their target numbers, those are pretty massive increases in their production and shipping costs.
So even if I don't follow some people's "omg maybe they're broke!" line of thought (Hi Rick!), it's also not much of a reach to note that they might not be quite as well off as they anticipated, based on their own words and actions.
There's also the budgeted time. The initial thought was that after their initial time investment pre-campaign, that they were only going to have to spend 8 months getting this stuff done. That it's 21 months, with no end in sight, and every manhour spent on whatever, is a manhour they're not getting income/productive effort from, means the money has to come from elsewhere. And as Kevin has admitted in a recent PBWU, it's not like they're flush with cash.
None of this is the backer's fault, and as Talizvar said, if they hadn't completely pissed away all their goodwill, maybe they wouldn't generate so much anger. There are many campaigns that have run into significant issues, but because they've garnered a lot of goodwill (even if it's just great communication), they're given a lot of leeway. But the constant perceived* dicking over of their backers, the constant promises** that fail to eventuate, and the generally tone-deaf attitude (Everything is awesome! Not our fault!) lead to most critics not giving them the benefit of the doubt.
* Some of those issues may not be a problem to everyone, but there were valid reasons for being pissed (at least to those backers) and significant (though not majority) people disappointed, not just by the actual event, but by the handling of it by Palladium.
** The timelines were just never realistic (given the information about progress we now have), and communication (and the oft promise to "do better") is just an onrunning joke at this point. Every time they pick up a little ground, they piss it away by lengthy delays between communications, and/or not addressing issues at hand.
Forar wrote: I guess I expect more professionalism out of a company that lauds being in business for a third of a century and has been shipping product globally for decades.
Really? Do you know nothing of Palladium? I remember Palladium from playing a short RIFTS campaign back in the 90s, and my experience with Palladium's rules and sense of "balance" (or total lack thereof) left me with zero confidence in the rules. Though I do have a lot of respect for their in-house artists. I just don't like their rules team. That is why I split a RRT pledge for models, only. And that, only because PB said Ninja Division was doing the models and I really like Soda Pop / Ninja Division. I specifically did not want to repeat any of my Palladium RIFTS experience. Had this been an all-Palladium project, I wouldn't have touched it at all.
As for being in business, I understand that they nearly collapsed due to embezzlement not that long ago - so kinda weak on internal controls and management. The management weakness there seems to be repeating itself as a root cause for issues with RRT.
But despite that, I got some models, and should receive more, eventually.
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Talizvar wrote: I cannot with good conscience bring myself to be naïve enough to think they could be that stupid and have such bad luck that all these last minute delays account for all the other time lost.
I am almost certain now that every single delay and "poor decision" could all be traced to spending as little money as possible that they could get away with.
I am pretty sure that Palladium simply doesn't have resources and budget to do anything else. I think they grossly underbudgeted shipping and logistics from the get-go, and got squeezed even harder by the increases in shipping costs, so are pinching every penny to get anything out, anywhere. Otherwise, people might not get stuff at all.
Given the choice between late and never, between something and nothing, I am always happier to get something late over nothing never. If things are as bad as they seem, the chance of project collapse increases, which turns into even more delays or potential non-delivery.
The longer they dither around about shipping stuff out to the rest of the world....
the easier they will find it to convince themselves that it might make sense for the RoW to wait until wave 2 is finished as that will save loads of cash and make their job a lot easier
nobody will mind... right?
after all they can go out and buy and extra core box from their local gamestore/online retailer if they're desperate to pay
Sining wrote: The plastic disc seems out of proportion compared to the model
And look at the dust on it! Disgraceful.
It's a YF-19....1/200 scale with a black can of spraypaint's lid as a radar dish. It was not perfect but about the right size and the top I had to sand down a bit to remove the picture. I plan on touching up the top. It took all of 10 minutes to put together and in all will make a decent Cat's Eye. Since the mini is a 1/200 Veritech it actually scales well into being a 1/285 Cat's Eye.
Sining wrote: The plastic disc seems out of proportion compared to the model
And look at the dust on it! Disgraceful.
It's a YF-19....1/200 scale with a black can of spraypaint's lid as a radar dish. It was not perfect but about the right size and the top I had to sand down a bit to remove the picture. I plan on touching up the top. It took all of 10 minutes to put together and in all will make a decent Cat's Eye. Since the mini is a 1/200 Veritech it actually scales well into being a 1/285 Cat's Eye.
Are you going to paint it, or just leave it as is? Those gashapon look fairly decent.
Ah yes, the ever popular "man, Palladium is a bunch of fethwits, y'all should've known better than to give them money!" defense.
First and foremost, the thousands of backers that DID take that risk are why you got those models that you seem so pleased to have gotten/are in theory being worked on.
For my small part; you're welcome.
Second, if you actually read the thread from the start, you'd know that many backers here went in with some hesitance specifically because of their reputation and history. A third party (and practically an unknown) seeming to be 'doing most of the heavy lifting' between the models and rules alleviated many of those concerns, only to have them return when PB apparently took over much of the responsibility post campaign.
Third, even with them being 'slow and prone to fethmuppetry' (if we're to accept the "Palladium couldn't find their gak with both hands and and a map" stance you seem to be promoting), that is at best an explanation for their current behaviour, not an excuse.
I mean, hey, they could strive higher. Work harder and smarter, both with the community and new field that they're trying to enter, what with having a vested interest in this product line being a hit and expanding them to possibly hitherto unknown levels of profitability.
Or they could feth over ~20% of their backers, whom should just shut up and take it because reasons and shipping is totes hard guys.
Asterios wrote: just on a side note I just heard people in the RoW can order the game from Palladium and it will ship without waiting.
Will it ship outside the US for free???
no they will have to buy the game and pay for shipping like normal, yet PB has no problems doing that, but has a problem shipping those who already paid for the game and shipping.
Because Palladium seems to be shipping boxes for $70-150 (1 and 4 boxes), and CSI will do it for $60-135 (same). International backers paid $30-50 (plus however much was baked into the tier itself).
Which means that Australian BC backers may have paid ~2/3 of their shipping (which was presumably intended to be offset by other international backers that they didn't have to spend the full amount on).
"But that's just for wave one!"
Yup!
And that onus was on them; to set a shipping rate that was sustainable, and to balance their desire to go to market in less than 3 years with product. Two waves of shipping costs a lot. We've been saying this since they announced it last January.
Assuming a mere $15 per Battle Cry, that'd put an Aussie Reckless backer at having paid $110 a year and a half ago. That's... pretty reasonable, and vastly more than you're trying to make it sound like they paid.
And that's comparing direct mailing to whatever the costs are on this bulk shipping/redistribution option.
So they basically paid a fair amount (compared to direct mail) and are getting substandard (a quarter year delay or more) service for it.
But do go on and tell us how paying $40-50+ in shipping for a battle cry is "pennies on the dollar".
Edit: and again, that's cherry picking one of the worst case scenario options. Care to explain why the ROW backers whom are being directly mailed got a 2 month delay? Oh, right, they had to repurpose their people to the Palladium Holiday Grab Bags!? Definitely a higher priority to ensure their Fans get $84+ worth of product! Signed! *jazzhands*
Edit: and again, that's cherry picking one of the worst case scenario options. Care to explain why the ROW backers whom are being directly mailed got a 2 month delay? Oh, right, they had to repurpose their people to the Palladium Holiday Grab Bags!? Definitely a higher priority to ensure their Fans get $84+ worth of product! Signed! *jazzhands*
You're forgetting that the real reason the RoW people are essentially unimportant is because PB already has their money. Not true for the grab baggers.
Edit: and again, that's cherry picking one of the worst case scenario options. Care to explain why the ROW backers whom are being directly mailed got a 2 month delay? Oh, right, they had to repurpose their people to the Palladium Holiday Grab Bags!? Definitely a higher priority to ensure their Fans get $84+ worth of product! Signed! *jazzhands*
You're forgetting that the real reason the RoW people are essentially unimportant is because PB already has their money. Not true for the grab baggers.
well of course, if they did the same to the other buyers that they did to the backers, the other buyers would be doing CC reversals and such and can still get there money back, so its not RoW is unimportant because PB already has their money, they are unimportant, because they can not get their money back at all.
PB created a total shipping budget. They should have charged a lot more for ROW shipping.
The same $15 paid goes a lot faster for US domestic shipping versus $15 for US-OZ international shipping.
Nobody should expect equal quality of service when you try to get more for the same price.
Claiming that the US should somehow subsidize ROW backer shipping is very wrongheaded, but it does put the truth that ROW are getting a better deal than they should have, and that ROW did not pay their fair share of the project.
JohnHwangDD wrote: PB created a total shipping budget. They should have charged a lot more for ROW shipping.
The same $15 paid goes a lot faster for US domestic shipping versus $15 for US-OZ international shipping.
Nobody should expect equal quality of service when you try to get more for the same price.
Claiming that the US should somehow subsidize ROW backer shipping is very wrongheaded, but it does put the truth that ROW are getting a better deal than they should have, and that ROW did not pay their fair share of the project.
and is that the RoW's problem? is it their fault that PB which has done orders overseas undercharged the S&H portion? does it mean that RoW should get screwed because PB didn't think? or are you one of those people that says its everybodies fault but PB's do you drink from Kevin's Kool-Aid ? or is it the fact http://youtu.be/MMzd40i8TfA
Yes, it is 100% their fault. When ROW saw that they were not being upcharged on shipping, VAT or customs, they absolutely should have considered the iron triangle of better-faster-cheaper to anticipate that increasing the amount of shipping cost for the same money paid would result in worse and slower. Any ROW backer who didn't anticipate that has only themselves to blame.
Palladium said ROW would get the stuff, and it would not cost more than a domestic US backer. That is what they are doing. Their decision to hold ROW to the end, at the cheapest possible way is totally consistent with that.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Yes, it is 100% their fault. When ROW saw that they were not being upcharged on shipping, VAT or customs, they absolutely should have considered the iron triangle of better-faster-cheaper to anticipate that increasing the amount of shipping cost for the same money paid would result in worse and slower. Any ROW backer who didn't anticipate that has only themselves to blame.
Palladium said ROW would get the stuff, and it would not cost more than a domestic US backer. That is what they are doing. Their decision to hold ROW to the end, at the cheapest possible way is totally consistent with that.
actually Domestic was not charged S&H and yet we got our stuff first. and RoW was being charged more for S&H, since they were charged while domestic wasn't.
I think John just realized his whole defense of PB went out the window, evidently, he thought Domestic paid S&H or that RoW paid same amount as domestic, without realizing, domestic did not pay S&H but according to him Domestic should still be waiting for their product since we paid the lowest amount of S&H "$0" .
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm not defending PB at all. I'm saying that ROW should have known better. There's a difference.
and yet you keep quoting PB's white knights stance which is, we should have known better, problem is until this KS I knew nothing of what PB had done, I didn't even know they were in business still since no store around here sells their product, and I didn't know they were a shoddy company that doesn't care about their consumers, if I did I would have never backed this project. and I'll make darn certain I will never back any other project of theirs and make sure to let anyone I know what PB is like and to avoid their product at all costs.
you keep saying we should have known better and gone by the saying of Caveat Emptor, but PB should have known better in this day and age of the internet and gone by the saying of Caveat Venditor, they have destroyed their company and reputation beyond all belief, if you have stock in Palladium Books, sell it cause it will soon be worth nothing.
It was asked during the campaign what Palladiums role was, and assurances were given( including from WWRD I believe) that Palladiums input was minimal.
Joyboozer wrote: It was asked during the campaign what Palladiums role was, and assurances were given( including from WWRD I believe) that Palladiums input was minimal.
yeah we were told ND was running this project and that turned out to be a lie, with PB fething up everything, in fact ND's portion of wave 2 was done months ago, its all been in PB's hands since then, doing lord knows what changes.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm not defending PB at all. I'm saying that ROW should have known better. There's a difference.
you keep saying we should have known better and gone by the saying of Caveat Emptor,
if you have stock in Palladium Books
I do, and you should.
I don't and I won't. Knowing what I've known about PB for the past several years, I'd blow my money on booze before ever buying stock in PB.
As above, I knew from the outset (bad rules, lack of financial & management control, Northern Gun) that PB wasn't the best company, which is why I limited my risk, hoping that this really was a ND project. As is now obvious to all, RRT may have had ND input early on, but it is a PB project through and through. If anything, this is a reprise of the crowdfunded RIFTS Northern Gun 1 & 2 debacle that was well-reported at the time of the KS.
At the time of the KS, PB's troubles were well known:
- RIFTS and Robotech had been out for a long time, anybody could have seen them.
- the embezzlement loss and cash position were well known and public information
- the lack of progress on the Northern Gun presales was also well known.
Failure to do due diligence is definitely the backer's fault.
Question for you:
- did you back Heavy Gear?
- how about Heroquest 25th?
Both of those are old properties, but you would be beyond foolish to have put significant money behind either of them, for the obvious reasons.
If either / both of those campaigns have problems, will you be excoriating people for knowing better and telling you so?
JohnHwangDD wrote: If anything, this is a reprise of the crowdfunded RIFTS Northern Gun 1 & 2 debacle that was well-reported at the time of the KS.
not by me, before this KS I only bought their Robotech RPG system, never played their Rifts system since I found it full of fail (was more a fan of SJG's Gurps system), but like I said until the KS started I didn't even know PB was still in business.
So after all the drama on the PB forums and the KS comments raising the red flag about the legions of rich kids who had their armies painted for thousands of dollars and lost every game robbing all the honest tabletop genius players who won every game but painted their own (or didn't paint at all) of their trophies and it turns out that the guy who is most vocal about warning the community of this Adepticon travesty in the making never planned on going to the event in the first place! Ugh.. typical. At least here in the thread, the loudest complainers about palladium actually bought into the KS.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If anything, this is a reprise of the crowdfunded RIFTS Northern Gun 1 & 2 debacle that was well-reported at the time of the KS.
not by me, before this KS I only bought their Robotech RPG system, never played their Rifts system since I found it full of fail (was more a fan of SJG's Gurps system), but like I said until the KS started I didn't even know PB was still in business.
Sure, I get that. But did you dig for any "dirt" on Palladium before you backed?
JohnHwangDD wrote: If anything, this is a reprise of the crowdfunded RIFTS Northern Gun 1 & 2 debacle that was well-reported at the time of the KS.
not by me, before this KS I only bought their Robotech RPG system, never played their Rifts system since I found it full of fail (was more a fan of SJG's Gurps system), but like I said until the KS started I didn't even know PB was still in business.
Sure, I get that. But did you dig for any "dirt" on Palladium before you backed?
no because it said ND was running the show, checked on them they seemed legit so backed it based on I was told they were doing the game, not PB who has no experience in miniatures.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If anything, this is a reprise of the crowdfunded RIFTS Northern Gun 1 & 2 debacle that was well-reported at the time of the KS.
not by me, before this KS I only bought their Robotech RPG system, never played their Rifts system since I found it full of fail (was more a fan of SJG's Gurps system), but like I said until the KS started I didn't even know PB was still in business.
Sure, I get that. But did you dig for any "dirt" on Palladium before you backed?
no because it said ND was running the show, checked on them they seemed legit so backed it based on I was told they were doing the game, not PB who has no experience in miniatures.
OK, I totally understand. ND being involved was the only reason I gambled to put any money in at all.
Hrm, I think either our friend JHDoubleDee is either skipping my posts or has me on ignore, because I have definitely pointed out the 'ND being involved allayed many of our concerns' aspect in the last page.
Nice to make an impression and whatnot.
@Warboss: man, that's just about the least charitable interpretation you could have gone for. Ugh. As they were originally written, the rules didn't note anything about weighting of the scores. Now we have better context on that. Do we really need to mock people who were concerned over badly worded rules with an outcome of the Adepticon folks addressing those concerns?
Nobody jumped off a bridge here. I'd say the system worked as intended; concerns were brought up, and fears were allayed.
The worst part of it was people beating the ever living gak out of arguments that nobody was actually presenting.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm not defending PB at all. I'm saying that ROW should have known better. There's a difference.
Got it. So at this point youre just purely trolling.
You know you really should be an ambassador for palladium. In fact why dont you repeat this over at the kickstarter? And in fact anywhere public. After all youre right and everyone else is wrong, correct? Especially those goddam foreigners.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm not defending PB at all. I'm saying that ROW should have known better. There's a difference.
"It was her fault, your honor. Just look what she was wearing!"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote: no because it said ND was running the show, checked on them they seemed legit so backed it based on I was told they were doing the game, not PB who has no experience in miniatures.
Yeah, unfortunately that was what made a lot of people back the project. Alas, look what we got.
Don't worry, for the next project they'll be working with Pirate Battalion, who will be doing all the heavy lifting on the rules (update a few things, new mechanics, etc), models, campaign and communications, with PB stepping back and taking a well deserved break. Just you wait, they've all learned so much this time will be different!
We are working on several fronts regarding Robotech® RPG Tactics™, FAQ to be posted online, much more detailed and elaborate building instructions, and other things. In fact, we may start posting the instruction sheets as Jeff Burke gets them done every few days.
The ship carrying the Australian backer rewards has been booked. The container and transport to the port should happen next week, possibly as soon as Monday. All 10+ pallets are packed up, shrink wrapped, banded and ready to go!
Some of the corrected renders for Wave Two items have started coming in as well. Meanwhile, we are prepping for convention season starting with AdeptiCon. See that convention report elsewhere for some details.
AdeptiCon will be host to a very special event – Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Battle for Macross Island™. The first Robotech® RPG Tactics™ tournament at an international gaming convention!
This tournament will be 300 points and have several games with fantastic scenarios.
Each table shall be a beautiful custom creation, for a unique gaming experience.
Five different awards will ensure that no matter what aspect of the hobby you are most interested in, there is an award that will be for you.
This tourney is for all levels of players from first-time tournament and convention attendees to seasoned gamers.
If you find yourself in the Chicagoland area we would love for you to sign up, stop by and say hello and meet a group of people who have the same interests as you. Even if you are unlikely to play, we would be happy to meet everyone. Come join the fun, fast-paced game of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Slots are limited!
The EU container is shipping from Los Angeles, and the AU container is likely shipping from New York. While I understand there's an excuse for the latter, I do find it hilarious.
28 day travel time from New York, including on and offloading, meaning a more than doubling by doing this. It's 10 days from China to LA, and the distance from LA to Australia is only ~20% further.
But that only counts from when they actually SHIP the package. Which on the previous update might be another week or two. So February's out. As is likely the first half of March. Assuming everything goes smoothly, and as we've seen, Palladium don't have any issues with shipping delays. They're lucky that way.
Oh, and there's news on Wave 2. Same old stuff, though they do call out five items specifically. One of those being the Glaug Eldare, which they already had a PPP of back when they were working on it the first time. But that appears to have gone back to scratch.
Someone over on the KS lauded that as having learned their lesson not to show stuff until it's done. Whoopee! But as far as I'm concerned, "No pictures, never happened.". Some of this stuff is stuff that they were actually working on this time last year. Not gonna believe there's progress without seeing it.
Just remember, the first dedicated Wave 1 PPP (Spartans) showed up March 14, 2014. With twice as many models to design, we're 7 weeks from the previous timeline to have it miss GenCon (which is two weeks earlier this year). Tack on the timeframe to ship to backers, and wanting something at GC2015, it looks like "voting time" again.
And that doesn't take into account the Resin stuff. Which I can see PB forgetting about until way too late. So people with resin components are likely to get shafted and put to the back of the line, as it's unlikely PB will want to go three rounds of shipping.
And why do you believe that PB deems it necessary to do another 'vote'? They had such a landslide last time that obviously anyone who does not agree with them selling at Gencon is a statistical anomaly and (lives in the RoW and can go feth themselves) is probably an imaginary construct anyway.
I also don't know if PS is actually viable for the 'exclusive' characters. PB are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on steel tooling for something that they intend on selling 5-10K of in total? Adding $5-10 PER MODEL just to include the tooling costs? At this point it may well be cheaper for them to just get a competent firm to do 3D prints of them to ship to us.
But again, so far as progress is concerned, "Pics, or it never happened!"
... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data.
and cue the
"Top Seller Lists from one of the largest online gaming retailers (and in fact, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America) don't mean anything, not when my perpetual feedback loop is telling me the game is DOA, unsuccessful, and terrible!"
I believe the KS itself requires around 6-7k of each (slightly more Rick figures, obviously), and they are all "KS & Convention exclusives), so who know how many thousands they may end up producing in the coming years.
Still not the tens/hundreds of thousands that they'll be making for many of the other figures, but that was a call they made two years ago, and it was questioned then for the same reason.
... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data.
and cue the
"Top Seller Lists from one of the largest online gaming retailers (and in fact, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America) don't mean anything, not when my perpetual feedback loop is telling me the game is DOA, unsuccessful, and terrible!"
Did I say it didn't mean anything? Oh - no I didn't. But that's okay. You'd rather just imply that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Thanks for keeping up to your standard.
Also, where would one find a list of the largest online game retailers, out of curiosity?
Because it keeps getting cited and I'd like to see where TWS and CSI and MinMar and MeeMar and some of the other big ones I'm familiar with stand.
A little cursory Google'ing is bringing up Alliance and Lions Rampart and a few others, but the similarity of the keywords is bringing up a lot more info on digital game distribution, and clearly that's not what we're talking about here.
edit: even more interesting is that while it *may* be selling (at least through that distributor/store), nobody is really talking about it.
Seriously. The most active communities I've found are the KS comments (now mostly dead compared to what they've been), Mike's page and here.
Palladium forums? Ghost town. Jaymz's page has maybe a 150 people last I checked. And the BGG subforum gets maybe a handful of posts per week, mostly asking about shipping.
Now, granted, the product just came out, but for something with a cult following (... what an on-point description of a PB product) and 2 years of development time, it's not exactly 'new'.
Well, PB is between a rock and a hard place.
They need to get product out to each region of the world to backers before they go to retail or they are dead to KS for future product.
Luckily, it is a world market and selling to retailers in the US, those enterprising folk can get product out there into a starved market so it is a win-win.
Yeah, the bad history of PB pointed out by Wang there was a consideration but Forar hit the nail on the head: a good reputable front-man cures all ills.
PB may have some problems in the future since it looks like Ninja Division is pretending like the project does not exist.
Pretty sure the "peanuts" shipping cost for me was the initial $50 and pretty sure when I added-on an extra $40 was required later, so $90 shipping was not exactly for free.
It is the shifting targets / goalposts as we wait for things freely promised makes it all so unpleasant.
They really do come across as a bunch of amateurs except when shipping out X-mas packages...
judgedoug wrote: Thought of the day: a game's success is not determined by a half dozen anonymous voices on an internet forum.
Meanwhile, outside of this echo chamber...
Looks like it's had a strong start (it has sold more than the Decimator, which I understand it's a nice X-Wing supplement). I'd say that what's important is to see if it manages to keep up.
actually when it comes to retailers top 10 or top 20 sellers, don't listen to them, its all a big lie and this is from a retailer stand point, if you have product you want to move and move fast you say its a best seller and selling fast, so people are persuaded to impulse buy it in fear it will sell out, you want to see the truth of the matter, go to stores where the same product is sold and see how many actually sell, I've only got one store in town that sells the RRT game so I'm unable to give a good judgement on sales or not, since have nothing to compare it too. but in the one store that has had it for awhile now, the only box removed from the shelf is the one the owner opened up to show off the sprues (which he regretted doing).
Is the game an utter failure everywhere? can't say without a breakdown of every single store, is it succeeding? same thing can't say.
Also who said FRP was the biggest online game store around? before today I never heard of them.
anywhoo after having to deal with a crappy site finally got the top 20 for FRPgames and other then the top game, the rest read like a whos who of mediocre games:
#1. Star Wars: Imperial Assault
#2. Robotech RPG Tactics: Main Boxed Game
#3. Star Wars X-Wing: VT-49 Decimator Expansion Pack
#4. Dragon Age RPG: Set 3
#5. Mice and Mystics Expansion: Downwood Tales
#6. King of Tokyo: Core Game (TableTop Reviewed)
#7. Sheriff of Nottingham (TableTop Reviewed)
#8. Golem Arcana: Base Game Set
#9. The End of the World RPG: Zombie Apocalypse
#10. Citadels Game with Dark City Expansion
#11. Arcadia Quest: Core Game
#12. Shadowrun: Crossfire DBG Core Game
#13. Munchkin: Munchkin Deluxe (TableTop Reviewed)
#14. Pathfinder Pawns: Bestiary Box 1
#15. Munchkin Quest: The Munchkin Boardgame
#16. Planetfall: Battle for Proteus Prime Two Player Battle Box
#17. Warmachine: Two Player Battle Box
#18. The One Ring RPG: Rivendell
#19. Galaxy Defenders: Core Game
#20. Dominant Species: The Board Game [3rd Edition]
and mind you, this company also sells games like Magic and so on, that are always big sellers, so to say a bunch of unknown games are outselling them, that should tell you whats up.
yeah like Forar said, the true indication of the game is the chatter about it, and guess what this topic on this site ranks right there in the top one or two of chatter on this game, even on the KS forums very little is even talked about the game, its mostly complaints about RoW shipping and such and people talking about other games and KickStarters, the PB forums are almost a ghost town on the subject, but that could be due to their overzealous censoring of the site by NMI, other places its the same handful of people posting, but all in all chatter about the game is almost non-existent, unlike other games.
Sining wrote: who on earth is even buying the warmachine 2 player box set that would propel it above any other warmachine product???
Like I said Sining, while the top spot might be a high seller, the rest are slow or unknown items they are pushing to sell, this is a known practice of companies who make these lists and awards and such to promote sales of a product.
Guys, quit propagating the negative echo chamber where the game is DOA! Duh! It's a top seller of course! This one website that is supposedly the internet retailer arm of one of the largest North American distributors totally is all the information you need! Don't question it!
Stormonu wrote: It's a top seller because ROW is having to buy it through these channels, instead of getting their KS stuff, duh!
Also, "best sellers" tend to be notoriously difficult to get because they're often sold out. When the stock is 20+, that's a little dubious.
But, if it does turn out to be a best seller - hurrah?
Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?
Stormonu wrote: It's a top seller because ROW is having to buy it through these channels, instead of getting their KS stuff, duh!
Also, "best sellers" tend to be notoriously difficult to get because they're often sold out. When the stock is 20+, that's a little dubious.
But, if it does turn out to be a best seller - hurrah?
Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?
Both Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh are CCGs. The list is tracking table-top games, which I don't think includes CCGs (though I think it *does* include LCGs and deck-building games).
As for the rest of the list...
My FLGS carries most of the items on the list. The notable exceptions are the Dragon Age RPG (I didn't even know that was still around; the expansion was likely timed to coincide with Inquisition, which no doubt boosted sales), and the Planetfall starter (which I special ordered, but the store didn't otherwise stock).
JohnHwangDD wrote: Yes, it is 100% their fault. When ROW saw that they were not being upcharged on shipping, VAT or customs, they absolutely should have considered the iron triangle of better-faster-cheaper to anticipate that increasing the amount of shipping cost for the same money paid would result in worse and slower. Any ROW backer who didn't anticipate that has only themselves to blame.
Can you leave this thread again please?
You dribble so much rubbish it has to be trolling, no normal person can come up with this sort of drivel with a straight face.
Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?
Rick, the fact that you haven't heard of the likes of "King of Toyko" is your malfunction, nobody else's. Being proud of that fact doesn't help either.
The obvious reason is that there is no such things as someone buying "War machine" or "Hordes" because there is no such product. To get on a top list like this you'd have to have an individual product like "Cryx Soul Mutilator" that managed to be one of their top 20 sellers. X-Wing will make that list (popular game, small base of models), and starter boxes will make that list (standard new player entry point), but individual models aren't going to make it.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Yes, it is 100% their fault. When ROW saw that they were not being upcharged on shipping, VAT or customs, they absolutely should have considered the iron triangle of better-faster-cheaper to anticipate that increasing the amount of shipping cost for the same money paid would result in worse and slower. Any ROW backer who didn't anticipate that has only themselves to blame.
Can you leave this thread again please?
You dribble so much rubbish it has to be trolling, no normal person can come up with this sort of drivel with a straight face.
Maybe it's NMI's alter ego. Because his real life fame is too much for him.
Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?
Rick, the fact that you haven't heard of the likes of "King of Toyko" is your malfunction, nobody else's. Being proud of that fact doesn't help either.
The obvious reason is that there is no such things as someone buying "War machine" or "Hordes" because there is no such product. To get on a top list like this you'd have to have an individual product like "Cryx Soul Mutilator" that managed to be one of their top 20 sellers. X-Wing will make that list (popular game, small base of models), and starter boxes will make that list (standard new player entry point), but individual models aren't going to make it.
No idea. Honest answer for me is that I've got a combination of about 6 different kinds of bags from them. One day I decided I was tired of having my stuff wrapped in paper towel and bouncing around in cardboard boxes so I ordered a bunch from some online place. Not that one.
My honest guess is that it's actually a pretty tiny site, and that someone ordered three of them this morning, which let them crack the top 20.
They're also selling the Decimator preorder for $4 more than CSI, and it's in their top list. I suspect they're just a very small volume site.
Who knows. Unless their methodology is made known to the rest of us, it will probably be fairly meaningless.
Well... I do have 7 army cases and about a dozen other separate foam trays...
Now - how many of a single model do you have?
I've got, using 40k as an example, 10 Carnifexes, 4 Hive Tyrants, over a hundred Genestealers... and I might need 2 army cases to fit them in when I transport (the rest of the models are on shelves).
They sold enough to crack the top 20? Yeah, I'm not going to put any more value on this site than it's face. A single site on the internet doesn't mean diddly squat.
But this is one of the latest online stores, according to Doug.
Also I still don't get the two player set being that popular for Warmachine. They gave some pretty bad models for it. Mow STs and cinerators?? Plus it's been out for 3 years now. It's how I got into wmh
Sining wrote: But this is one of the latest online stores, according to Doug.
Also I still don't get the two player set being that popular for Warmachine. They gave some pretty bad models for it. Mow STs and cinerators?? Plus it's been out for 3 years now. It's how I got into wmh
If nothing else that page could very well be "crap we think we might have over ordered". Like I said, without knowing their methodology, it's pretty meaningless.
I figure web sales are great if they are happening, we want people to play the game with right?
The one lonely box at my FLGS is still sitting there since the initial shipments.
I think the owner is hoping I take it off his hands... not so amusing stuff.
At least in my area it is looking like it is not making much of an impression.
I figure I will get at least 3 full cards for both sides done and say I have a ready to go game.
Any extra destroids I could roll into Battletech.
Anyway, I guess we can hope PB keeps plugging away at those conventions and get enough volunteers to demo their product.
Why does PB seem so dependent on their customers to do the heavy lifting? (Sometimes literally...)
Wave 2, then no more PB, can't wait to unsubscribe from their rather irritating news letter.
My attempt at their publication:
"Blah, blah... had a hard weekend, had to think... stayed up all crazy hours for no reason... could not figure out which font I wanted to use... I decided to use a pencil today: it is going to be one of those days... we glad-slapped each other for all the hard work we did filling a pallet for Australia... made sure it was made of un-heat-treated wood so it would be rejected by customs... figured we could slap a sticker with "HT" on it if we had to... you have no idea how hard it is to prepare for our open-house, pushing a broom around brought up such bad memories... tried to read the Tactics rules again, got cross-eyed after the first paragraph, figure I would "wing-it" like always... had to ban a few more people for being irritants in the forums, funny people never learn, they create such work for us though... tried to look at dakka posts again, they really have no idea how to act if they are to be favored fans... well, no email in my mailbox so China production of wave 2 must be going as planned... hmmm... where did that schedule go? Ah, silly me, I never made one... I am sure it will be all awesome, that last Gencon thing was such a nightmare... at least the next one is about a year away, plenty of time...."
<edit>Yes, I am aware how petty this looks, but I needed the therapy...<>
Just occurred to me, we ship about every other month a cargo container to Australia, should have had the buggers piggyback with my work.
Again, the "it's sooo hard!!!" just makes me angry.
Sining wrote: But this is one of the latest online stores, according to Doug.
Also I still don't get the two player set being that popular for Warmachine. They gave some pretty bad models for it. Mow STs and cinerators?? Plus it's been out for 3 years now. It's how I got into wmh
If nothing else that page could very well be "crap we think we might have over ordered". Like I said, without knowing their methodology, it's pretty meaningless.
And yet when I say "... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data." I get slapped with "and cue the
"Top Seller Lists from one of the largest online gaming retailers (and in fact, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America) don't mean anything, not when my perpetual feedback loop is telling me the game is DOA, unsuccessful, and terrible!""
All I said was "Needs more data." Not - "This can't be correct." or "They're fabricating numbers." or anything like that.
judgedoug, please provide more information - a link showing that this is, and I quote, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America (unquote), some information about their methodology of picking their top 20, another webstore showing good sales... something. Anything. Please. That's all I can ask for.
A single data point that contains... shall we say "interesting" other data isn't enough to make any call on, let alone something to hang your hat on to mock other users.
I think there is actually a collated list somewhere. I remember eating it once and seeing that xwing was the best selling game of that quarter followed by wh40k then wmh then whfb. This was two years back I think
And yet when I say "... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data." I get slapped with "and cue the
"Top Seller Lists from one of the largest online gaming retailers (and in fact, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America) don't mean anything, not when my perpetual feedback loop is telling me the game is DOA, unsuccessful, and terrible!""
You must not be used to arguing with religious fanatics or cultists. There will be no such thing that is forthcoming. Something was found that he thought validated his assertion, and therefore his assertion is right.
Sining wrote: I think there is actually a collated list somewhere. I remember eating it once and seeing that xwing was the best selling game of that quarter followed by wh40k then wmh then whfb. This was two years back I think
I've heard of some people being able to 'absorb information' but...wow!
Talizvar wrote: I figure web sales are great if they are happening, we want people to play the game with right?
The one lonely box at my FLGS is still sitting there since the initial shipments.
I think the owner is hoping I take it off his hands... not so amusing stuff.
Meanwhile, my FLGS had a few starters but sold out. And has a small group getting up and running.
Stormonu wrote: It's a top seller because ROW is having to buy it through these channels, instead of getting their KS stuff, duh!
Also, "best sellers" tend to be notoriously difficult to get because they're often sold out. When the stock is 20+, that's a little dubious.
But, if it does turn out to be a best seller - hurrah?
Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?
Both Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh are CCGs. The list is tracking table-top games, which I don't think includes CCGs (though I think it *does* include LCGs and deck-building games).
As for the rest of the list...
My FLGS carries most of the items on the list. The notable exceptions are the Dragon Age RPG (I didn't even know that was still around; the expansion was likely timed to coincide with Inquisition, which no doubt boosted sales), and the Planetfall starter (which I special ordered, but the store didn't otherwise stock).
actually the list is not the top 20 table top games, but the top 20 best sellers in their entire store, which is higher priced then most other online stores obviously.
Although I am not really caring anymore about this KS I have been inspired on how to paint some of them.
I have been showing my 4yo son original transformers episodes from the 80's and I reckon I am going to paint some of the veritechs like Starscream and the other fighter jet transformers.
Mike1975 wrote: I'm pretty sure I have a lot more than 25.....
But then some people have started making here and KS comments so toxic I'm not surprised.
Yeah, thanks Palladium!
While I readily admit that PB has played a major role, they are far from the only players on the stage and having hecklers in the audience does not help either.
It's unfortunate how much snark can be directed towards this project. Even saying this as someone who lobs an awful lot their way.
I mean, hell, if one reads back through this thread, I'd say there's a progression from reluctance (based on PB's reputation) to hope (based on ND's slickly run campaign) to confusion over the dramatic shift in the following weeks, to dawning horror/mock optimism (I'm guilty of a lot of this), to outright mockery from the ongoing shenanigans.
It'd be nice if, I dunno, the shenanigans ended. People keep asserting that they've totally learned so much, so show us! The bar is set low on Wave 2 because Wave 1 was a series of running gags, but it's not impossible for them to really emphasize that they *have* changed/improved.
If they want to.
If not, well, I guess they and we alike can keep the status quo.
Mike1975 wrote: While I readily admit that PB has played a major role, they are far from the only players on the stage and having hecklers in the audience does not help either.
Heckler: To embarrass or annoy, harass, badger (a public speaker) with the intent to disturb performers or participants.
For some it could be a means of trying to "get even" for some perceived slight or just not getting what they want, I can see heckler being a valid label for those people.
I deal with suppliers and manufacturing processes and international shipping: it is not that hard and there are plenty of fairly inexpensive experts you can get to handle it.
The more inflammatory comments from PB can only fall within two categories: lies or incompetence which tends to draw out the inner heckler.
I strongly suggest they have an eye on expenses and many delays could have been attributed by seeking inexpensive solutions (or increased revenue streams) but unwilling to call it for what it is and adding "spin" to what they have to say.
Actual errors or gaffs can and do happen, but again, they will not own up to it (more spin) or to save money they do not get experts to help avoid these issues and stumble into problems blind.
To not let these "water under the bridge" comments pass gracefully is in hope they change their behavior (for the better) and take steps to improve for next time.
To not acknowledge the source of problems will only allow them to continue.
The black-out on Wave 2 timing is another error: choosing not to pick some kind of timeline only allows rumor, at least an itemized list of things to be done and listing progress would address apprehension of their customer base. It just seems wrong to promise something, take the money, then refuse to share when final delivery will happen.
The only "other players" would be Ninja Division which has bowed out or pushed out which no-one will confirm or deny, Harmony Gold which only holds a stagnant license for Robotech which has not rights to future contrived works based on it, the molding / manufacturing supplier and various groups for shipping. Harmony Gold is the only company PB cannot be in charge of so I cannot see blame being able to go very far afield since PB holds the money for all the other groups.
To hear zero comments from PB on how things will be made better speaks volumes of PB as an organization.
If they truly want to do another KS for the other chapters of Robotech, they pretty much have committed to them being handled the same way... which is consistent for them I guess.
I only ask they do not trot-out a new front-man and claim everything will be different than their normal method of doing things again OK?
Their own organizational track-record is "honest" enough that if you are willing to wait and the product will make some money, PB will put it out eventually.
Unfortunately, change requires not just willingness to acknowledge the commitment but also enough awareness to understand that change is needed in the first place.
Forar wrote: Seriously. The most active communities I've found are the KS comments (now mostly dead compared to what they've been), Mike's page and here.
Palladium forums? Ghost town. Jaymz's page has maybe a 150 people last I checked. And the BGG subforum gets maybe a handful of posts per week, mostly asking about shipping.
Now, granted, the product just came out, but for something with a cult following (... what an on-point description of a PB product) and 2 years of development time, it's not exactly 'new'.
Any thriving communities I've missed?
Swabby wrote: Just a note on community activity. At this point it is like the same 25 people mainly commenting across most of the forums.
So even saying that there are three active communities isn't really accurate.
But of course in their view "Everything is Awesome." because, of course, they say so - doing this all the while they make it a point to keep saying don't listen to anybody with lukewarm, let alone negative, thoughts on [X] game that cannot possibly fail.
Which is a somewhat curious behavior though because if said game has such a significant, thriving community and cannot possibly fail why is there a need at all to downplay and refute anything negative or less than completely enthusiastic.
And those nice people never, or very rarely, stop to think about why everyone else who would normally be vocal on/offline isn't interested in joining their mutual admiration society.
"... they make a desolation and they call it peace."- Tacitus, [As translated by William Peterson]
Talizvar wrote: To not acknowledge the source of problems will only allow them to continue.
Funny isn't it how very few people ever want to mention going along to get along pretty much never helps things get better.
Because yeah, if a person or organization with a repeated pattern of counter-productive behavior is never called out or checked on it what incentive is there for them to change in any fashion.
If they don't change or even acknowledge that they have a problem, that is certainly no reason to not keep pointing it out to them as well as others.
"It is the rare fortune of these days that one may think what one likes and say what one thinks."- Tacitus, ca. 56 – ca. 117
I see them as an employee that takes criticism very poorly. Telling them they are wrong and getting in their face, a very typical American thing, will not work. They will most likely shut down and ignore you completely. If you pose it constructively and carefully it works much better but even then is not always taken to heart.
So I see all this yelling "PB is EVIL" and "PB must be taught to change" as a large waste of time and effort. Time and history has shown us that this will not help and is not the way to go. So people still do it anyways because they can't think past being upset whether they have legitimate reasons to be or not.
#2 is MUCH more difficult and will work but requires patience and is only sometime successful and not always to the point we hope it to be (remember the 10 questions for PB)?
NOW, that being said, most people do not have the patience or desire to go read 100 posts of pissed off people, especially when it is about them or something they love. So what does this mean? It means that there is a reason why many do not post on PB's site, here, and the KS comments anymore. If you support PB in any way you are a "collaborator" and must be taught.
So continue the railing and gnashing of teeth. In your heart you know it will have no effect. While you do that some of us have been able to help PB work on the FAQ and Force Orgs. Is it taking way too much time, I think so. Can I change that? I can try by nudging them and reminding them. Do I think it will be all I hoped? No. But it is a step, albeit not a big one, in the right direction.
After all the complaints about 40k pricing did it ever change? Will it ever change? Do you honestly think that or the way they do anything will change because of massed complaints?
A virus is small and can bring down the biggest of creatures and does so from within.
What it comes down to is Kevin has surrounded himself with yes men, if anyone questions his decisions or says that might not work, they will be fired or removed, Kevin should have been kept away from this project with a competent project manager handling it.
biggest thing people can do is show their displeasure with their wallet and word of mouth, its all you can do, because Kevin will not change and as long as he owns the company and is in charge it will not change. and currently I give the company a short life span and if they encounter problems with wave 2 I predict a crash and burn.
Mike1975 wrote: I see them as an employee that takes criticism very poorly. Telling them they are wrong and getting in their face, a very typical American thing, will not work. They will most likely shut down and ignore you completely. If you pose it constructively and carefully it works much better but even then is not always taken to heart.
So I see all this yelling "PB is EVIL" and "PB must be taught to change" as a large waste of time and effort. Time and history has shown us that this will not help and is not the way to go. So people still do it anyways because they can't think past being upset whether they have legitimate reasons to be or not.
#2 is MUCH more difficult and will work but requires patience and is only sometime successful and not always to the point we hope it to be (remember the 10 questions for PB)?
NOW, that being said, most people do not have the patience or desire to go read 100 posts of pissed off people, especially when it is about them or something they love. So what does this mean? It means that there is a reason why many do not post on PB's site, here, and the KS comments anymore. If you support PB in any way you are a "collaborator" and must be taught.
So continue the railing and gnashing of teeth. In your heart you know it will have no effect. While you do that some of us have been able to help PB work on the FAQ and Force Orgs. Is it taking way too much time, I think so. Can I change that? I can try by nudging them and reminding them. Do I think it will be all I hoped? No. But it is a step, albeit not a big one, in the right direction.
After all the complaints about 40k pricing did it ever change? Will it ever change? Do you honestly think that or the way they do anything will change because of massed complaints?
A virus is small and can bring down the biggest of creatures and does so from within.
Guys, we must totally be patient with the people taking our money. Wait...that seems backwards somehow
And oh, all those complaints about 40k pricing? It's not like more and more people just stopped buying it did they. Nope, all those people just kept complaining and kept buying without stopping. That must be why GWs profits keep dropping.
Mass Complaints are the first indication that something is wrong with the system. Much like pain is a way your body tells you something is wrong. Ignoring it or pretending it's not there isn't going to help. Nor is shouting at your body/consumer 'stop complaining so much' going to help either.
Mike1975 wrote: I see them as an employee that takes criticism very poorly. Telling them they are wrong and getting in their face, a very typical American thing, will not work. They will most likely shut down and ignore you completely. If you pose it constructively and carefully it works much better but even then is not always taken to heart.
So I see all this yelling "PB is EVIL" and "PB must be taught to change" as a large waste of time and effort. Time and history has shown us that this will not help and is not the way to go. So people still do it anyways because they can't think past being upset whether they have legitimate reasons to be or not.
#2 is MUCH more difficult and will work but requires patience and is only sometime successful and not always to the point we hope it to be (remember the 10 questions for PB)?
NOW, that being said, most people do not have the patience or desire to go read 100 posts of pissed off people, especially when it is about them or something they love. So what does this mean? It means that there is a reason why many do not post on PB's site, here, and the KS comments anymore. If you support PB in any way you are a "collaborator" and must be taught.
So continue the railing and gnashing of teeth. In your heart you know it will have no effect. While you do that some of us have been able to help PB work on the FAQ and Force Orgs. Is it taking way too much time, I think so. Can I change that? I can try by nudging them and reminding them. Do I think it will be all I hoped? No. But it is a step, albeit not a big one, in the right direction.
After all the complaints about 40k pricing did it ever change? Will it ever change? Do you honestly think that or the way they do anything will change because of massed complaints?
A virus is small and can bring down the biggest of creatures and does so from within.
Guys, we must totally be patient with the people taking our money. Wait...that seems backwards somehow
And oh, all those complaints about 40k pricing? It's not like more and more people just stopped buying it did they. Nope, all those people just kept complaining and kept buying without stopping. That must be why GWs profits keep dropping.
Mass Complaints are the first indication that something is wrong with the system. Much like pain is a way your body tells you something is wrong. Ignoring it or pretending it's not there isn't going to help. Nor is shouting at your body/consumer 'stop complaining so much' going to help either.
Looking, looking,,,nope, I don't see the word patient. In fact I never said you do not have a good complaint or a bad one for that matter.
What I did say...reading English.....yes....I did say it...
"So I see all this yelling "PB is EVIL" and "PB must be taught to change" as a large waste of time and effort. Time and history has shown us that this will not help and is not the way to go. So people still do it anyways because they can't think past being upset whether they have legitimate reasons to be or not. "
So all the complaining has changed 40k how? Their prices still drop. At what point will they wake up?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote: What it comes down to is Kevin has surrounded himself with yes men, if anyone questions his decisions or says that might not work, they will be fired or removed, Kevin should have been kept away from this project with a competent project manager handling it.
biggest thing people can do is show their displeasure with their wallet and word of mouth, its all you can do, because Kevin will not change and as long as he owns the company and is in charge it will not change. and currently I give the company a short life span and if they encounter problems with wave 2 I predict a crash and burn.
True or not, the only way to make some change, any change is to either push it all to crash and burn...yay (sarcasm) or try to make some changes by making them in a non-threatening way. Some people do not handle or listen to criticism well. That's life. Again...has 40k has listened to the players?
Mike1975 wrote: So continue the railing and gnashing of teeth. In your heart you know it will have no effect. While you do that some of us have been able to help PB work on the FAQ and Force Orgs. Is it taking way too much time, I think so. Can I change that? I can try by nudging them and reminding them. Do I think it will be all I hoped? No. But it is a step, albeit not a big one, in the right direction.
I disagree, but from a different perspective. As Talizvar and Asterios mentioned, I think most of the "railing and gnashing of teeth" are not in any way intended to "change Palladium". It's more an outlet to express frustration, and as a means to warn people who aren't familiar, from making the same mistakes the disgruntled backers are. Not as a means of public service, but as a means to hit PB in the only place they can, their income stream. Any potential sale warned off, is a sale PB don't make.
You mention that it won't change things, and that smaller nudges are required. And that's true. But only for people who still are invested in making this (and potentially future) projects successful. There are a statistically significant number* of backers who will, or already have partially or completely dumped out, or if not so drastic, aren't going any further with the line. And for those, the frustration and potential associated financial costs mean they either don't care if, or are actively rooting for, PB to burn.
* Unlikely even close to a majority, but unprovable either way as what is it, 80% of the backers have never commented? I'm only going on the raw number of players that have declared
I get that from your position of wanting the game to succeed, that this kind of commentary works against you. But it's human nature, through relationships, politics, religion, economics, the legal system, and especially through the "first world problem" that is gaming, to rail against things that you know you likely cannot change.
You can hope for a better relationship, but that'll only happen if PB make serious amends, and we all know that's never going to happen. With their head stuck in the sand mentality, it's going to continue. Much like how most of the backers I'm talking about feel about PB, you can hate what's happening, but don't expect it to change.
lot of it came up after PB was late on some of their dates, then the so called WK's came in saying we should have known better since that is how PB operates, which made matters worse for those who had just complaints and such.
Talizvar wrote: I only ask they do not trot-out a new front-man and claim everything will be different than their normal method of doing things again OK?
I think that bridge has been burned. They got a second chance here, to potentially show that either they can improve how they do business, or step back and let others take care of a product line while they count the money. I don't think they'll get a third chance from a lot of the displeased RRT backers.
People can point to their NG1/2 fiasco and decades of delays and overpromising and smugly say 'you should've known better' all they like, but that kind of backhanded admonishment speaks worse of Palladium than it does of those who were willing to give them another chance.
Talizvar wrote: $1 donation for their next KS anyone? At least to say "get out while you can!" in the backer comments?
Hell, if they're smart they'll follow Academy's route and have an Enemy Spy tier. I'd totally pitch in an extra buck for that alone.
Realistically, if they do a campaign for series 2 and/or 3, it'll probably fund. No matter what bridges they've burned, they have a die hard (occasionally cult-like) fan base that will drop them 100k or whatever, plus new blood who either ignore the naysayers or join with the same wide eyed 'maybe it'll be better this time' sense of forgiveness others had before.
They'd fund, I have no doubt of that. But 1.5m? I highly doubt it. I'd be surprised if they broke a million. And honestly, I think they'd do well to NOT 'explode', but to run a sensible campaign, with sensible goals, sensible stretch goals, and to simply set a reasonable target and (at least vaguely) hit it. Overestimate the delivery time (and then overestimate it again). Overestimate on shipping (or go US only, if international shipping is that difficult/expensive). Set a wider contingency fund. And then overestimate it.
Mike1975 wrote: If you pose it constructively and carefully it works much better but even then is not always taken to heart.
Nice caveat there, but bullgak. They do not listen to critique. You've given plenty of critique from the inside, and yet bemoaned things that did not change or get fixed that you pointed out repeatedly. Plenty of people tried to be reasonable, to be polite, and it rarely got anything but silence or platitudes. A minor uprising got a response a few times, but the community seems long past caring that much at this point. They respond to nigh-civil unrest, but politely addressing concerns has generally been met with silence. And we know they don't read the comments, they don't read their forums, apparently they know of this thread but 'the negativity' presumably keeps them away, and when asked 10 polite questions we got a small handful of responses, assurances we'd hear more, and then I'm pretty sure nothing else.
Shenanigans with wave two could cause the giant to stir from its slumber, but now that we know most of the backers have their wave one, it'll placate them in the face of a great deal of adversity.
Though if there isn't something tangible happening by Gencon, I suspect there'll be trouble again.
But your bit about them hating reading mean things? Feth that. They didn't react or respond to people being reasonable, I don't buy for a second that their silence and detachment are purely based on 'because people are mean on the internet'.
And if that's the case then they need a thick skinned, internet savvy, PR man or woman even worse than we already knew they did.
I mean, man, I've looked over your site. The same 'negativity' and 'must be taught' attitude you rail against here is plenty prevalent between Eric, Alex, Anthony, and others lashing out over the slightest hint of criticism. It's plenty insular unto itself, and filled with people who would rather be Internet Tough Guys and respond with smug eye rolling image memes than have a discussion.
Hell, the discussion about the tournaments brought out the Elitist attitudes in droves. Straw men were slaughtered by the dozen during those conversations alone.
Regarding 'warnings'; go read this very threads first pages. Pretty sure there was some skepticism expressed there.
But during the campaign itself, in the comments? Yes, that was mostly positive, with a few voices expressing concern over the, err... optimistic delivery target.
Remember, they were to go to manufacturing within 45 days of the campaign ending!
:-O
And I'm with Morgan. Some people are done with trying to be sensible, reasonable, and to passively hope that PB listens to their suggestions. If they want to engage with the community, then they need to work on it. If not, then they can just let Wayne post a few tidbits every other week on your page, hidden away from 75-90% of the backers.
Mike wrote: I think this is part and parcel results from the group that "Love" Robotech but swear that it is going to fail and have nothing better to do than tell everyone they can. (KS COMMENTS + DAKKADAKKA) You know who they are.
*snipped list of reasons things aren't that bad*
So while these people say we are bad for supporting it what else can we do? Can you support RRT and not PB? NO! They go hand in hand. It is this or nothing. Or wait a century and hope that someone else gets the license. Very Doubtful.
So after all that. Play On! screw the detractors who have not played, Feel sad and lament the ROW who is still waiting but don't let it get to you. It sucks but there is nothing we can do but support it as well as we can. Supporting it does not mean we are unfeeling to the ROW plight, just that we love and want RRT to go on.
Uplifting, and thanks for the shout out! :-D
But "these people say we are bad for supporting it"?
Man, that's borderline persecution complex. Even complete donkey caves like myself generally wish well those that enjoy it. In fact, I've had vastly more people give me gak for even hinting at criticism than seen people tell those having fun that they're somehow wrong.
Plenty of debates have been stirred up between those 'factions', but rarely for the reason you're stating here.
Forar, I never said I got a big response. BUT I have had responses and been able to influence some things. If it was not for me the Long Range Missile upgrade would still be 8 missiles. So I readily admit they don't listen to all I say, sometimes they can be made to listen. Small changes can alter the course.
Now on the persecution thingy. Maybe it's just me but I have had a larger number of people openly comment on why they refuse to go here or the KS comments. Some have reaped what they have sown. You wanted a forum where everyone agrees with you....now you have it because just about everyone else left.
Speaking of groups, you might want to go look at yours. I think some of them probably have their pants off at this point. (edit for context: they seem to have decided that 'the prudes can feth off' and are busy posting from deviant art)
Also, kindly do not put words in my mouth. I have never. EVER. Said that I "wanted a forum where everyone agrees with me".
But you've got just that rolling on Facebook, and that you'd even think I wanted such a thing reeks of projection.
Hell, I don't generally post on the Comments anymore because watching Jorel and Jaymz and Rick and Lola desperately need to get a room in public got old and embarrassing. I think they're gushing about Conan and breasts at this point. And here? We disagree about things regularly.
But if your insular group is to be the future of RRT, it's in for a bumpy ride.
I'm not sure what it is you're trying to do Mike. Remember some of us still have absolutely no reason to post something positive, so here we are again, only now you label us haters who drive everyone away, while saying palladium should be treated with kid gloves. Excuse me for being a RoWer who made the mistake of loving Robotech so much I gave Palladium money.
Tried listing the things Palladium have done right?
With regards to Mike's example of people not wanting to come here, I'm sure we've had people in this thread express the same of his facebook group.
And to be honest his group can't take criticism very well. There was a guy who posted several Robotech Fans against Harmony Gold links on the page and he got lambasted for being so negative and how people were sick of his negativity and how this had nothing to do with RRT. Meanwhile random deviantart or kickstarters that certain people have an interest in? Perfectly ok to post and no complaints.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus this whole handling of PB with kid's glove is utter bsimo. Seriously, if they don't have the mental maturity to run a business then maybe they shouldn't be running one
Talizvar wrote: $1 donation for their next KS anyone? At least to say "get out while you can!" in the backer comments?
I'm pretty sure some long-time RIFTS players gave warning the first go, but nobody listened because 100 minis for $100.
And because Robotech/Macross. And because TOTES NOT PALLADIUM!!! NINJA DIVISION, FOR REALS!!!
By the time we were told otherwise, the chargeback time for my credit card was already way over. Had it not been, I probably wouldn't be here, right now.
Now on the persecution thingy. Maybe it's just me but I have had a larger number of people openly comment on why they refuse to go here or the KS comments. Some have reaped what they have sown. You wanted a forum where everyone agrees with you....now you have it because just about everyone else left.
Funny. You could say the same thing about the palladium forums, in terms of having driven the haters away.
Now on the persecution thingy. Maybe it's just me but I have had a larger number of people openly comment on why they refuse to go here or the KS comments. Some have reaped what they have sown. You wanted a forum where everyone agrees with you....now you have it because just about everyone else left.
If I never need to provide a perfect example of irony, I now know exactly where to point them.
Mike1975 wrote: If it was not for me the Long Range Missile upgrade would still be 8 missiles. So I readily admit they don't listen to all I say, sometimes they can be made to listen. Small changes can alter the course.
Now on the persecution thingy. Maybe it's just me but I have had a larger number of people openly comment on why they refuse to go here or the KS comments. Some have reaped what they have sown. You wanted a forum where everyone agrees with you....now you have it because just about everyone else left.
You had developed a relationship directly with PB from the beginning, not many of us have had the opportunity.
I can say you worked for it and umm.. not sure if "earned it" is quite the words but they will have to do!
When able to have a direct dialogue it is easier to tailor the message (because you get direct feedback!).
Glad you had some impact on our "Itano Circus".
"PB is evil" seems an oversimplification of even the most negative of comments at least in this forum I can attest.
About chasing away those who do not agree with us, I tend to see our fine MODs do that to people who get into personal attacks, I can attest the PB forums tend to ban for hearing things they do not like in general like criticism which tends to limit discussion.
I hear many comments of "love for what they do", I am sure a few in the PB company are hard-core and passionate in what they do.
The top man however, who makes almost all the decisions will not even follow his own rules when game mastering an RPG as he has happily pointed out, he likes to "wing-it".(some write-up I had read by him after a convention... yes, do not have link handy so use salt...).
I have tried to appeal to him in the most logical way I can: to appeal to his greed.
How to get fans to happily hand over money and not be an inconvenience: plan ahead, be efficient, inform as incremental goals are met and get the smart people to handle the complicated stuff and whip them mercilessly if they do not perform as was discussed.
If he can only address the timeline creep many other "evils" could be forgiven or at least overlooked.
A "reach goal" would then be for them to put out what we want rather than what they think we want: big difference.
Now comments such as these are not all that bad right?
Not spreading lies or anything?
Not anything they want to hear I know, but they have this last opportunity to show turning over a new leaf before they try to hit that KS button again.
I just want all my darn models, all other details at this point are rather irrelevant.
Remember, though, at what was the second or third chance offered, there were the "Ten Questions" that were agreed upon and forwarded through a Trusted Fan-Friend. And I'm certain said Fan-Friend phrased them in such a way as to not get his relationship status downgraded.
What was the result of that, again? Deflection, blame shifting, and "we'll get back to you on that" crap. Same as before and after.
My point being, Mike's way of 'gentle kisses instead of confrontation' was tried. And it was given the finger.
Now on the persecution thingy. Maybe it's just me but I have had a larger number of people openly comment on why they refuse to go here or the KS comments. Some have reaped what they have sown. You wanted a forum where everyone agrees with you....now you have it because just about everyone else left.
you want to talk persecution? how about people who are getting banned from the palladium forums for speaking the truth, you claim persecution all you want, but if you speak the truth on the palladium forums you will be banned, and I just got banned permanently from the forums for telling NMI he can't handle the truth.
maybe its those people who you claim to persecuted are not being persecuted, maybe they just can't handle the truth? they see their rockstar god being shown off in his true light and they can't handle the revelation.
Sining wrote: With regards to Mike's example of people not wanting to come here, I'm sure we've had people in this thread express the same of his facebook group.
And to be honest his group can't take criticism very well. There was a guy who posted several Robotech Fans against Harmony Gold links on the page and he got lambasted for being so negative and how people were sick of his negativity and how this had nothing to do with RRT. Meanwhile random deviantart or kickstarters that certain people have an interest in? Perfectly ok to post and no complaints.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus this whole handling of PB with kid's glove is utter bsimo. Seriously, if they don't have the mental maturity to run a business then maybe they shouldn't be running one
the way Mike says PB should be handled is how we are in this mess to begin with, hate to say it but PB needs a shock to the system or it will be going belly up, also sining you notice how Mike's group is a closed group so people can't post or even read posts in his group unless their a member, that does not speak of a group being open and honest now does it?
Now on the persecution thingy. Maybe it's just me but I have had a larger number of people openly comment on why they refuse to go here or the KS comments. Some have reaped what they have sown. You wanted a forum where everyone agrees with you....now you have it because just about everyone else left.
If I never need to provide a perfect example of irony, I now know exactly where to point them.
You've obviously never read bad syntaxs' rage fit after he got a c&d for selling his 3d robotech mechs on shapeways. It involved calling people who disagreed with him Isis and how he was so ashamed of his fellow robotech fans
Asterios wrote: people who are getting banned from the palladium forums for speaking the truth, you claim persecution all you want, but if you speak the truth on the palladium forums you will be banned, and I just got banned permanently from the forums for telling NMI he can't handle the truth.
"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!"
Tho I am curious, what did you expect as the result over there?
Palladium suddenly seeing the light and making a radical change in the way they do things? To suddenly become a big fuzzy huggin' bear?
Sining wrote: You've obviously never read bad syntaxs' rage fit after he got a c&d for selling his 3d robotech mechs on shapeways. It involved calling people who disagreed with him Isis and how he was so ashamed of his fellow robotech fans
To be fair, his mood swings would give Jorel a run for his money.
If someone could paste his meltdown it would be hilarious.
Well, at least one person seems to think that if you spend enough time politely on your knees, they will at least deign to listen to what you have to say.
Asterios wrote: people who are getting banned from the palladium forums for speaking the truth, you claim persecution all you want, but if you speak the truth on the palladium forums you will be banned, and I just got banned permanently from the forums for telling NMI he can't handle the truth.
"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!"
Tho I am curious, what did you expect as the result over there?
Palladium suddenly seeing the light and making a radical change in the way they do things? To suddenly become a big fuzzy huggin' bear?
Does Palladium take criticism better than Prodos?
funny thing John that's the same scene I used to tell NMI he couldn't handle the truth, then he perma banned me. no I don't expect PB to change, but because they have surrounded themselves with yes men, they will never change and that's thanks to the yes men.
But yeah, if NMI simply confirmed what you expected, then it's probably for the best. The whole IDGAF thing is very freeing, no? And now that you're no longer dealing with them, there's less stress in your life, because you're no longer talking to people who don't listen, right?
IMO, expecting change is something that pretty much always fails. The only change comes from within, whereby someone really wants to actually change, as opposed to the appearance of change or the idea of change. If you've ever tried changing your spouse, well, you know how that goes... And she's officially, legally invested in you. Not like some random dude on the Internet.
At this point, I am just hoping PB manages to get Wave 2 out in some semblance of matching Wave 1. That's all.
Forar wrote: His "come at me, bro!" stance on IP law is... it's something else.
Bad Syntax's posturing is pretty funny, in a lot of ways it's pretty close to how Chapterhouse was acting before they ended up in court. He started ranting about how the C&D wasn't real, then when he found out it was in fact issued by HG he switched to saying it wasn't issued legally and that he can pick and choose which laws he will follow based on if they make sense to him or not. Despite receiving a C&D he still intends to challenge them by releasing and distributing the files, all the while posting about it in a venue that is monitored by employees of both HG & PB, his logic is flawless.
I've never seen anyone so intent on getting his own butt sued. Derp.
JohnHwangDD wrote: IMO, expecting change is something that pretty much always fails. The only change comes from within, whereby someone really wants to actually change, as opposed to the appearance of change or the idea of change. <snip>...At this point, I am just hoping PB manages to get Wave 2 out in some semblance of matching Wave 1. That's all.
I typically find getting quick and prompt change only happens when you hit someone in the pocketbook / wallet.
KS is a bit contrary to that when they already have your money and they misinformed you long enough you cannot get it back.
I think this is why there is a heightened willingness to complain: hoping to discourage others from throwing money at a company that is misbehaving with consumers.
The problem is PB will most likely not equate lower than expected income due to prior customer dissatisfaction (much like what GW has demonstrated).
I remember pre-ordering a book from Chapters once.
I was shocked to find the book I ordered on the shelf at the physical store.
When inquired, I found out they were finishing up delivering to their stores and the then the pre-orders would ship out.
Had an interesting discussion with their rep. of what is the benefit to the consumer if not at the very least to get the book first?
None?
Scary to say PB has managed to do better than this.
Wow, found something a little more positive to say.
So Wang: get your Wave2 Gencon 2016 thereabouts?
<edit> Too many bits to pick: John, or Wang or DD... keeps it from being repetitive anyway.
Sining wrote: You've obviously never read bad syntaxs' rage fit after he got a c&d for selling his 3d robotech mechs on shapeways. It involved calling people who disagreed with him Isis and how he was so ashamed of his fellow robotech fans
To be fair, his mood swings would give Jorel a run for his money.
If someone could paste his meltdown it would be hilarious.
There's like 200+ comments in that one thread alone iirc. People can just join Mike's group to see the whole thread, which is really quite funny. Especially when he starts ranting about how he's the only one in the group smart enough to 'rebuild the internet from scratch'. That's a direct quote. Yeah...
Sining wrote: There's like 200+ comments in that one thread alone iirc. People can just join Mike's group to see the whole thread, which is really quite funny. Especially when he starts ranting about how he's the only one in the group smart enough to 'rebuild the internet from scratch'. That's a direct quote. Yeah...
Doesn't every internet meltdown eventually reach that point? In much the same way that every internet tough guy is an active duty Navy SEAL, almost all of them are also Master Hackers with double major in Hacking and Ninjitsu.
Hey guys, just wanted to let you know there is now another RRT facebook page that is not moderated by Mike and Peter. It may not be for everyone but it won't be an echo chamber of fanboys as anything goes
Sining wrote:With regards to Mike's example of people not wanting to come here, I'm sure we've had people in this thread express the same of his facebook group.
And to be honest his group can't take criticism very well.
evilsmurf wrote:Funny. You could say the same thing about the palladium forums, in terms of having driven the haters away.
Not as a way of being negative to those folks trying to make actual open and welcoming communities on FB, but it puzzles me that with it being so easy to create a free web forum so many should still choose to try and get folks to join/rejoin FB.
Especially given as I understand it how many countries or company firewalls block FB, G+, dA, or whatever but not most forum venues.
There is also the not inconsiderable factor of how many of the vocal percentage types on/offline seem to actively dislike anything having to do with social media like Facebook, Skype, etc etc etc.
If I might venture an opinion I would go the web forum route to avoid further dividing what community remains/exists, I realize it's more work to set up but in the long run I wonder if it wouldn't work out for the better if the game actually does take off.
Merijeek wrote:What was the result of that, again? Deflection, blame shifting, and "we'll get back to you on that" crap. Same as before and after.
My point being, Mike's way of 'gentle kisses instead of confrontation' was tried. And it was given the finger.
Merijeek wrote:Well, at least one person seems to think that if you spend enough time politely on your knees, they will at least deign to listen to what you have to say.
100% agree - If humble disclosure, well-intentioned contribution, reasoned critique, hostile criticism, or outright "hating" didn't change anything at all for the better, somehow base appeasement and obsequious subordination is going to work? Right.....
Which is kind of the problem with a lot of argument, having to make the assumption the other party is rational and open to having a debate, discussion, or dialogue on the subject(s).
But more often than not the kind of folks you end up at loggerheads with over stuff such as this can't possibly change their mind about anything no matter how great the direct anecdotal evidence and demonstrable fact you might present along with your objective/subjective ideas.
Simply because what they believe is already fixed and determined in their mind before a single word is spoken or typed; that you might be presenting an equally if not more valid point of view never, ever, manages to illuminate such an adamant mindset.
Which I'm reasonably sure (most) everyone still talking or browsing here already knows, not that it makes things any less frustrating of course.
Well, I mean, look at Dakka. There's a general chatter subforum, painting/modelling subforums, game play/rules questions, and even "off topic".
Trying to have essentially all of them crammed into one place makes for difficult reading and participation, no separation for ease of perusal (if I want to read about modelling I can head to that subforum and then further narrow my search just with a glance at the topic titles).
It's Mike's page and he's run it for ages, but honestly from what I've seen it seems to be hitting the issues with that many people with no segregation of ideas, topics or interests that such proximity can create.
The 'pin up thread' is the perfect example. Tucked in an "off topic" style section, most people probably wouldn't even see it, and were it a thread marked "Robotech Pin Ups [NSFW]" I doubt it would've been remotely as contentious a matter.
Forar wrote: Speaking of groups, you might want to go look at yours. I think some of them probably have their pants off at this point. (edit for context: they seem to have decided that 'the prudes can feth off' and are busy posting from deviant art)
Also, kindly do not put words in my mouth. I have never. EVER. Said that I "wanted a forum where everyone agrees with me".
But you've got just that rolling on Facebook, and that you'd even think I wanted such a thing reeks of projection.
Hell, I don't generally post on the Comments anymore because watching Jorel and Jaymz and Rick and Lola desperately need to get a room in public got old and embarrassing. I think they're gushing about Conan and breasts at this point. And here? We disagree about things regularly.
But if your insular group is to be the future of RRT, it's in for a bumpy ride.
Ohhh, this is going to be FUN!
No Forar I was generalizing of the everyone agree with me idea. Rick, Merijeek, Boba and a few others have effectively taken over and pushed anyone else away from the KS comments. It's pretty obvious. So if you felt included sorry man. As others have said, the few people who usually like to go there now avoid them. Here is not quite as bad. As I pointed out, some legitimate gripes. None of the complaining has gotten them anywhere. I doubt it will. As has been pointed out I have built somewhat of a personal relationship with PB. Do I get frustrated at them at times. Hell yes. But I honestly think I've done as much as I can and will continue to do so. I'm here for RRT, not PB, not HG, but because I was a 10 year old kid that watched Robotech again and again. If what I do happens to help them oh well. My primary goal is the best for RRT. I started Battletech only because there was no Robotech game. I played for years. All that was quickly put in the garage when I found out about RRT.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sining wrote: With regards to Mike's example of people not wanting to come here, I'm sure we've had people in this thread express the same of his facebook group.
And to be honest his group can't take criticism very well. There was a guy who posted several Robotech Fans against Harmony Gold links on the page and he got lambasted for being so negative and how people were sick of his negativity and how this had nothing to do with RRT. Meanwhile random deviantart or kickstarters that certain people have an interest in? Perfectly ok to post and no complaints.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus this whole handling of PB with kid's glove is utter bsimo. Seriously, if they don't have the mental maturity to run a business then maybe they shouldn't be running one
The whole RRT has become highly polarized and for numerous reasons. ROW shipping, minis parts, and we could go on. Many people out there just want to enjoy the game and move on. Some just want to complain that PB lied and cheated them. These are not two things that can co-exist well. Being a moderator I get a lot of reported posts from both ends of the spectrum and do my best to understand and accommodate both. There is an ebb and flow on the site. Things are fairly calm but I'm sure with ROW shipping and Wave 2 things will flare up again.
Now on the persecution thingy. Maybe it's just me but I have had a larger number of people openly comment on why they refuse to go here or the KS comments. Some have reaped what they have sown. You wanted a forum where everyone agrees with you....now you have it because just about everyone else left.
Funny. You could say the same thing about the palladium forums, in terms of having driven the haters away.
So define larger.
2 people? 5? 35000?
Funny you should say that. I got banned for stupid reasons and leave those forum mostly untouched and NMI is aware of my opinion of him. If you can't take criticism you cannot learn and grow and improve.
Swabby wrote: It would have been contentious no matter how it was marked.
The fact is, worse has been posted on that page before, but it is really all about who posted it there.
Kind of like the pb forums.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also criticism and praise of the game can coexist unless you're like five. Your members constantly complain about any negativity at all but considering it's a Facebook thread, they can just ignore it or not open the thread to view the comments.
Mike1975 wrote: If it was not for me the Long Range Missile upgrade would still be 8 missiles. So I readily admit they don't listen to all I say, sometimes they can be made to listen. Small changes can alter the course.
Now on the persecution thingy. Maybe it's just me but I have had a larger number of people openly comment on why they refuse to go here or the KS comments. Some have reaped what they have sown. You wanted a forum where everyone agrees with you....now you have it because just about everyone else left.
You had developed a relationship directly with PB from the beginning, not many of us have had the opportunity.
I can say you worked for it and umm.. not sure if "earned it" is quite the words but they will have to do!
When able to have a direct dialogue it is easier to tailor the message (because you get direct feedback!).
Glad you had some impact on our "Itano Circus".
"PB is evil" seems an oversimplification of even the most negative of comments at least in this forum I can attest.
About chasing away those who do not agree with us, I tend to see our fine MODs do that to people who get into personal attacks, I can attest the PB forums tend to ban for hearing things they do not like in general like criticism which tends to limit discussion.
I hear many comments of "love for what they do", I am sure a few in the PB company are hard-core and passionate in what they do.
The top man however, who makes almost all the decisions will not even follow his own rules when game mastering an RPG as he has happily pointed out, he likes to "wing-it".(some write-up I had read by him after a convention... yes, do not have link handy so use salt...).
I have tried to appeal to him in the most logical way I can: to appeal to his greed.
How to get fans to happily hand over money and not be an inconvenience: plan ahead, be efficient, inform as incremental goals are met and get the smart people to handle the complicated stuff and whip them mercilessly if they do not perform as was discussed.
If he can only address the timeline creep many other "evils" could be forgiven or at least overlooked.
A "reach goal" would then be for them to put out what we want rather than what they think we want: big difference.
Now comments such as these are not all that bad right?
Not spreading lies or anything?
Not anything they want to hear I know, but they have this last opportunity to show turning over a new leaf before they try to hit that KS button again.
I just want all my darn models, all other details at this point are rather irrelevant.
You know full well things do not have to get to personal attacks before people are driven away. Modding can only go so far. I've seen it not only here but on my page. Do we have people on both sides of the fence go too far? Yes, sometimes I warn but FB is not like a forum. I can't temp ban. It's all or nothing.
On PB I could care less that they love what they do. They need to do what is best for Tactics. They mean well and are not all the monsters with evil intentions as some portray but more like exuberant children that run around with a lot of great desires and wishes and dreams but need a good hand and a guide to accomplish things. That is what is lacking. Organization and strong set of goals and strong management. Faith without works is dead. So I try to provide what guidance I can. Crap I wrote up a whole bunch of options as to what could be done next. It's frustrating to me how long something as simple as errata takes to get approved.
Sining wrote: You've obviously never read bad syntaxs' rage fit after he got a c&d for selling his 3d robotech mechs on shapeways. It involved calling people who disagreed with him Isis and how he was so ashamed of his fellow robotech fans
To be fair, his mood swings would give Jorel a run for his money.
If someone could paste his meltdown it would be hilarious.
There's like 200+ comments in that one thread alone iirc. People can just join Mike's group to see the whole thread, which is really quite funny. Especially when he starts ranting about how he's the only one in the group smart enough to 'rebuild the internet from scratch'. That's a direct quote. Yeah...
Funny thing is how many times I warned him via PM that that would happen....In fact I told him again 2 days before he got the notice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: Well, I mean, look at Dakka. There's a general chatter subforum, painting/modelling subforums, game play/rules questions, and even "off topic".
Trying to have essentially all of them crammed into one place makes for difficult reading and participation, no separation for ease of perusal (if I want to read about modelling I can head to that subforum and then further narrow my search just with a glance at the topic titles).
It's Mike's page and he's run it for ages, but honestly from what I've seen it seems to be hitting the issues with that many people with no segregation of ideas, topics or interests that such proximity can create.
The 'pin up thread' is the perfect example. Tucked in an "off topic" style section, most people probably wouldn't even see it, and were it a thread marked "Robotech Pin Ups [NSFW]" I doubt it would've been remotely as contentious a matter.
I honestly thought the pic was borderline but would have let it slide. But I back up Peter since I'm not there to second guess him or him to second guess me. What is fine for one is not for another and I actually did have a few complaints in and out of the thread. I'm there to do what I think is correct for the group and the page and not cater to the few. I feel that for the most part things go pretty well and we keep the pro modeling crowd vs more casual gamers from killing each other as well as the PB is bad vs the I just want to enjoy it group from tearing each other up. The group has grown way beyond what I ever expected so I might search for another person to help because things happen like these last few days where I have barely been able to look in to see what is going on due to work, school and the family.
Swabby wrote: It would have been contentious no matter how it was marked.
The fact is, worse has been posted on that page before, but it is really all about who posted it there.
Kind of like the pb forums.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also criticism and praise of the game can coexist unless you're like five. Your members constantly complain about any negativity at all but considering it's a Facebook thread, they can just ignore it or not open the thread to view the comments.
Typically I have a bad memory except with a few that I pay attention to and don't worry about what people have said in the past. If people cross the line and start going at each other and I'm aware I'll try to diffuse or talk to them. I do have a life outside of the page that often prevents me from seeing the craziness until hours later.
Criticism can co-exist but not everyone can or does ACT like they are more than five and I think you know that pretty well. That goes for both sides of the fence.
Mike, last I remember you had one post on your entire Facebook group front page, criticising pb. From a guy who hasn't received his stuff. Majority of the negative comments were being expressed there and not spilling over into other threads. It's not like there was one guy spamming every single thread about why he was unhappy with pb. Instead what you guys did was go into that thread and complain about the complaints and the complainers. Not only that, someone apparently made a racist remark about me, which I couldn't see because the guy blocked me anyway, which you then replied to without chastising him until some other people brought up the fact that it was a pretty resist remark. Now again I haven't seen the remark so I can't say how racist it was, if it was. But don't act like your group isn't biased in any way
Is that why NMI banned you Mike? Do you enable racists on the internet? It would have to be something serious like that or surely someone from palladium would have stepped in to defend you, they don't just hand out bannings willy hilly over there...
Alleged racists since I never saw the comment. I do know it had something to do with the way I speak/read on the internet though thanks to mikes reply to the guy
Sining wrote: Mike, last I remember you had one post on your entire Facebook group front page, criticising pb. From a guy who hasn't received his stuff. Majority of the negative comments were being expressed there and not spilling over into other threads. It's not like there was one guy spamming every single thread about why he was unhappy with pb. Instead what you guys did was go into that thread and complain about the complaints and the complainers. Not only that, someone apparently made a racist remark about me, which I couldn't see because the guy blocked me anyway, which you then replied to without chastising him until some other people brought up the fact that it was a pretty resist remark. Now again I haven't seen the remark so I can't say how racist it was, if it was. But don't act like your group isn't biased in any way
I never said there were completely unbiased. People always have biases. But I try to allow for a more open forum especially knowing how PB is. Also you pointed out that there are few posts criticizing PB, actually there are a number and fairly often so I find your comment lacking. Also If I remember right it was Alex that made that remark and I did speak to him in a PM and tell him to cool it or he would be banned. I have done that to a number of people. Luckily things come and go and only 2 people have had to be thrown off other than the few robots selling sunglasses. Also keep in mind that your response supports my point more than anything. There are a large number of players, who upset at differing levels just want to enjoy the game. These players are the ones that by and large get upset at each other on both ends. So if you say there are a lot of people shouting down people who criticize I would say that of the 1700+ members that shows that there are also a significant percentage of RRT backers and players who just want to enjoy the game. Some do honestly care and are sympathetic to ROW and some may not care. Again, you point reinforces mine. Thanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Joyboozer wrote: Is that why NMI banned you Mike? Do you enable racists on the internet? It would have to be something serious like that or surely someone from palladium would have stepped in to defend you, they don't just hand out bannings willy hilly over there...
NMI banned me and told me to be the better man because I openly criticized a poster who is known for slavishly and blindly backing PB. He jumped on players complaining about the minis and more and from his comment it was plainly obvious that despite his attempts to say otherwise he had NOT A SINGLE CLUE as to what the factors were driving the upset people. He jumped in to defend PB without having any idea as to what they were upset about or why. I told him he needs to understand a complaint before he jumps in to defend something and that he needed to go back and read the complaints. He complained to NMI and I got a warning telling me to "Be the Better Man". I thought that was stupid and made a thread about being the better man that showed the hypocrisy in how I was treated and was banned. I rarely go over there at all except to answer the occaisional rules question and to be aware to help with the errata.
I was actually surprised and skeptical when NMI asked to join my FB group and have warned him a few times for jumping on people for criticizing PB. PB...Kevin, Wayne, and Jeff are big men and if they think something is too much they are free to come and answer on my page. But openly attacking someone just for criticizing was too much and I told NMI so. I even gave advice for the PB forums, not that I expect him to take any of it. I do the best I can on my page keeping things on task but sometimes I'm at work or out of the house and can't read and keep up with every single post.
If I remember right the post against Sining was something I did not see till a few hours after it happened. I realized I needed some help and asked Peter to help moderate since things have grown and I'm contemplating asking another person to help. Like this weekend. I'm out of town and also have a ton of homework for my masters to work on.
So, still shipping Wave 1.
Aussi people will chime-in when they get stuff, right?
Nothing official on Wave 2.
Some FAQ committed to but no ETA.
I assume Gencon will pretty much be a non-event this year.
No real idea of sales figures if RRT will be a cash cow for PB in retail or they have to pretty-up for KS part 2.
Sorry, feel need to summarize the state of affairs.
Did I miss anything relevant?
Mike1975 wrote: Looking back it looks like the evidence was deleted....or hidden.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ROW should be next?
me I got banned fromt he PB forums the 2nd. time (permanently) for cause I guess since I told NMI he couldn't handle the truth, which is so true.
here is the post that got me banned:
Rick S. Post subject: Re: Oh how I wish this was not soPostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:48 pm
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:47 am
Posts: 163 @Battle Damage its simple, PB, specifically Kevin Lied, no one pointed a gun at their head and made them ship product to retailers before all backers product was shipped, they did that of their own free will, even though they said they would not, what is it something someone does when they say they will not do something then do it? oh yeah its called a lie, and yes PB/Kevin lied to you the over sea backers, those who will say, that PB only delivered to retail in countries where product was delivered, are obviously blinding themselves from the reality of the internet age, where overseas retail stores buy from American distributors, furthermore, the promise was not that, but that PB would not deliver product to anyone till after the Backers product was shipped.
Shame on you PB/Kevin for telling lies and not being honorable to your backers now I am off since odds are NMI is going to ban me for another 4 months because he cannot handle the truth. even when said politely like this.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Upon reading your post, the response and result is not surprising. Not surprising at all.
yeah my post was in response to someone asking why Kevin didn't keep his word when he said he would not release product to retail till all backers product was received.
Talizvar wrote: So, still shipping Wave 1.
Aussi people will chime-in when they get stuff, right?
Nothing official on Wave 2.
Some FAQ committed to but no ETA.
I assume Gencon will pretty much be a non-event this year.
No real idea of sales figures if RRT will be a cash cow for PB in retail or they have to pretty-up for KS part 2.
Sorry, feel need to summarize the state of affairs.
Did I miss anything relevant?
Unless I missed it happening,
New and Improved Assembly Instructions - "The first ones should be available by the end of this week." (dated Jan 14).
Also on the fringe, Malcontent dice, after asking Mike to hold off.
I disagree GenCon will be a non-event. I fully expect it to be as controversial an issue as the previous two (Max Miriya 2013, vote shenanigans and attempt at "early release" 2014). At this rate, based on math and last year's scheduling, and it being twice as many figures, it's exceedingly unlikely Wave 2 will ship before GenCon (which is two weeks earlier this year). But PB won't miss the opportunity to sell SOMETHING, so I expect them to have some of the Wave 2 figures shipped in. Gotta do it "for the fans" or whatever garbage they used last year. Truly, the only real issue, will be how much apathy the backer base has developed.
Mike1975 wrote: I still got some Malcontent dice. They just cost more than they should have. Anything that may cut into future profits.....
Now you are just trolling, heck of an friendemy you are for PB.
I'm assuming he had 3rd party customs created.
Actually Mike was making his own custom Malcontent dice to sell, when he said PB asked him to wait and they were going to do that, now i'm thinking they sent him a C&D.
Mike1975 wrote: I still got some Malcontent dice. They just cost more than they should have. Anything that may cut into future profits.....
Now you are just trolling, heck of an friendemy you are for PB.
I'm assuming he had 3rd party customs created.
Actually Mike was making his own custom Malcontent dice to sell, when he said PB asked him to wait and they were going to do that, now i'm thinking they sent him a C&D.
I suspect Mike can speak for himself. So far, I can't think of a single time he's lied to us so why raise suspicions? IIRC he said he asked for permission ahead of time and it was given but later rescinded after he started taking orders (and the $$$ interest was shown). All those details fit into the existing paradigm of him trying to work within the constraints of what palladium allows and palladium willy nilly going back on their word whenever it suits them in the short term.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just wish I could have used the official symbol
Clearly you should have had B_S produce and distribute them for you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: I suspect Mike can speak for himself. So far, I can't think of a single time he's lied to us so why raise suspicions? IIRC he said he asked for permission ahead of time and it was given but later rescinded after he started taking orders (and the $$$ interest was shown). All those details fit into the existing paradigm of him trying to work within the constraints of what palladium allows and palladium willy nilly going back on their word whenever it suits them in the short term.
However, it also fits with the paradigm of Mike generally trying to cast PB in the most forgiving light.
Merijeek wrote: However, it also fits with the paradigm of Mike generally trying to cast PB in the most forgiving light.
Someone has to try to be the voice of reason when the pitchforks and torches are out and your house is made of straw (can I make a mixed metaphor or what?).
He wanted Robotech, it has happened!
PB is pretty much the only source so love 'em or hate 'em we are stuck.
Making the best of a situation could be considered being a realist.
The difference for me is after era 1 I have little interest in the rest of the line (cyclones and alpha / beta fighters are interestingly cool though...) so I am willing to cut connections and run.
Too bad for them that there is no license for derivative works so this is a dead line of product once all models are produced from the show.
I should be grateful that PB survived till now, I honestly thought "White Wolf Publishing" had put the last nail in their coffin.
But like any good zombie, they refuse to believe themselves dead and keep shambling on.
Their original works were awesome, the mechanics a bit finicky but serviceable all the same.
The MD mechanic at least did drive home the concept that some things were indestructible until you had the right equipment to deal with it.
The "Palladium Book of Weapons and Armour" is still worth getting as a reference, one of the few "drool-worthy" items in their stable.
It is funny looking at their "shop" list, I am surprised just how much of their product I had owned.
As far as I am concerned I owe them nothing, I had a couple people's wages covered for a year somewhere.
I think I am betting on RRT not really getting any traction with the gaming crowd and will be supported by fan-sites for "official" house rules.
If I see any evidence contrary to this mindset, then I might be more concerned with a FAQ and new model instructions for a living customer base.
Mike1975 wrote: I still got some Malcontent dice. They just cost more than they should have. Anything that may cut into future profits.....
Now you are just trolling, heck of an friendemy you are for PB.
I'm assuming he had 3rd party customs created.
Actually Mike was making his own custom Malcontent dice to sell, when he said PB asked him to wait and they were going to do that, now i'm thinking they sent him a C&D.
Well I was buying through chessex. The symbol was not the official Malcontent one. If you get a bunch of people and make a big order the price drops from $1 per die to around $0.40 or even less plus the shipping is not as bad since 10 dice cost the same as 250 to ship. I was gathering a group to make a big order and would ship the individual orders out. Had about 800 dice total. I asked NMI if I could put it on the FOTM and was told that would be OK. Within a few days I received an email saying that they would rather not have to C and D me and to please stop. So I did stop the open solicitation and a much reduced group of us bought some dice.
Talizvar wrote: Making the best of a situation could be considered being a realist.
Possibly, sometimes, but unfortunately the rest of the time something else entirely is true:
“Reality is always controlled by the people who are the most insane.”― Scott Adams
Talizvar wrote: The "Palladium Book of Weapons and Armour" is still worth getting as a reference, one of the few "drool-worthy" items in their stable.
It is funny looking at their "shop" list, I am surprised just how much of their product I had owned.
As far as I am concerned I owe them nothing, I had a couple people's wages covered for a year somewhere.
Same for me.
Just as recently as ~ten'ish years ago I had most all things for Beyond the Supernatural, Heroes Unlimited, Macross, PB-RPG, Rifts, Robotech, & TMNT/After the Bomb.
Now I have only the Weapons & Armor book.
Talizvar wrote: Making the best of a situation could be considered being a realist.
Possibly, sometimes, but unfortunately the rest of the time something else entirely is true:
“Reality is always controlled by the people who are the most insane.”― Scott Adams
It's a matter of simple perspective. Do I care about PB...a little, they seem to be nice guys.....do I care about RRT.....definitely. I want RRT to go on with or without PB. Since most people will not give anything 2 seconds if not official I must go that route and help however I can.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Either that or I can join the rest and be upset at everything and wind up losing any influence at all with PB and not be able to do a darn thing to change anything at all.
Mike1975 wrote: Either that or I can join the rest and be upset at everything and wind up losing any influence at all with PB and not be able to do a darn thing to change anything at all.
What was it you got changed, again? Did you even manage to get half of those ten questions answered from...what was it, June?
Talizvar wrote: The "Palladium Book of Weapons and Armour" is still worth getting as a reference, one of the few "drool-worthy" items in their stable.
It is funny looking at their "shop" list, I am surprised just how much of their product I had owned.
As far as I am concerned I owe them nothing, I had a couple people's wages covered for a year somewhere.
Same for me.
Just as recently as ~ten'ish years ago I had most all things for Beyond the Supernatural, Heroes Unlimited, Macross, PB-RPG, Rifts, Robotech, & TMNT/After the Bomb.
Now I have only the Weapons & Armor book.
_
_
Same here. I had a mostly complete TMNT collection (fav was transdimensional... turtles versus a dinosaur on the cover!), full original edition Macross2/Robotech (still have those), full rifts collection until about 2000 (or whenever the tolkeen war stuff started coming out), mostly complete HU (mix of revised and 2nd ed), and a smattering of other titles. I've since pared down to just about a half dozen of my favorite rifts books, three HU books, and robotech/macross2. I have some (but not all) of the "new" robotech RPG books bought after the KS ended when I was still optimistic about all this. They're now in my swap shop thread.
Actually since someone was blocked I can't see their posts when I sign in.
List of things changed
1. 10 questions, I think they answered 7 and 5 were good answers a couple more questionable.
2. Made a number of corrections to the rulebook and squadron cards that they approved that made the rules a bit cleared, although not as many as I had wanted, and the squadron cards had some numbers wrong.
3. The YF-4 and YF-4 leader almost wound up with different flight speeds in Fighter and Guardian
4. The Super VF speeds were corrected thanks to me catching it.
5. The Long-Range missile upgrade is to be made 6 missiles instead of the 8 listed in error.
6. A few things in the errata, although I have not seen the latest and greatest.
7. I'll help develop Southern Cross stuff and rules.
I could go on but those are a few off the top of my head.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and the Ghost had the missiles done completely wrong from the fluff and that was fixed too.
Swabby wrote: It royally pisses me off that Mike has a personal line to PB while everyone elses input amounts to mud.
No offense Mike but had they listened to some of the more experienced wargamers early on alot more than 5 questions would have been answered.
The amount of cronyism surrounding this game is going to be a huge part in curbing its market success in my opinion.
It's PB. Cronyism is a requirement.
Yes, it's bs. I should've expected nothing less - but I had hopes that Ninja Division was going to be more than a pretty name.
Swabby wrote: It royally pisses me off that Mike has a personal line to PB while everyone elses input amounts to mud.
No offense Mike but had they listened to some of the more experienced wargamers early on alot more than 5 questions would have been answered.
The amount of cronyism surrounding this game is going to be a huge part in curbing its market success in my opinion.
Well it was one of the reasons I sought to help PB in the first place. To be able to positively influence the output. As with any small company, and this is not the first time I playtested, they listen to those closest to them because they can't afford to have someone just sitting around with his eyes on the screen. It was exactly the same when I playtested with Agents of Gaming. While I understand your sentiment I also think its not realistic. PB is a small operation and does not have people who just sit around and gather thoughts and pass them on. I pass on what I can when something like problems with the rules or serious questions arise. I get what answers I can and bring them back. PB just does not have the manpower or will to watch every little comment. So you have a right to feel upset, you may even consider me a crony. I just try to help with what I can. With the present way things are and the situation you may ask for more but are unlikely to get it TBH.
Mike1975 wrote: I still got some Malcontent dice. They just cost more than they should have. Anything that may cut into future profits.....
Now you are just trolling, heck of an friendemy you are for PB.
I'm assuming he had 3rd party customs created.
Well I was buying through chessex. The symbol was not the official Malcontent one. If you get a bunch of people and make a big order the price drops from $1 per die to around $0.40 or even less plus the shipping is not as bad since 10 dice cost the same as 250 to ship.
Yup, that's exactly what I figured to be the case. Thanks for the follow up.
Same here. I had a mostly complete TMNT collection (fav was transdimensional... turtles versus a dinosaur on the cover!), full original edition Macross2/Robotech (still have those), full rifts collection until about 2000 (or whenever the tolkeen war stuff started coming out), mostly complete HU (mix of revised and 2nd ed), and a smattering of other titles. I've since pared down to just about a half dozen of my favorite rifts books, three HU books, and robotech/macross2. I have some (but not all) of the "new" robotech RPG books bought after the KS ended when I was still optimistic about all this. They're now in my swap shop thread.
Please post a link to your trade thread. I'd love to see what's there.
Thanks for the link, Forar. If anyone is interested, feel free to PM me in order to keep the thread clear (and the mods from deploying singing "to be in love!" in red text).
Swabby wrote: Yeah I fully agree with the ND thing. They are the only reason I put money in, the only one. I fully understand that makes me a sucker.
Swabby. Know where you are going with that, and agree, but personally my reasons for backing go something like this.
1/ Well, you know, ROBOTECH!------------------------------< Not enough to back
2/ Ninja Division---------------------------------------------------< Going to back. Nice models that I've not been able to collect before.
but
3/ Palladium Books! ----------------------------------------------< Why I didn't go in for more, or actually get a full game type pledge.
So you are not technically alone - and we all know that misery loves company.
