judgedoug wrote:
Hey guys, SecretSanta2014 for an additional 5% off at CoolStuffInc.

And again, I'd like to point out that their 50% off Warmachine/Hordes sale and MiniatureMarket's 40% off Warmachine/Hordes sale is entirely the reason that I got into Warmachine and Hordes (with Menoth, Minions, and Circle).

Very often huge sales are subsidized by the publisher in order to move product. (This is what actually happened with Privateer Press and Miniature Market. Warmachine had dropped to #4 in the top 5 minis game lists, and after the 40% sales, rose back to #3). Notice the stock levels for the Robotech product at CSI. I can easily imagine Palladium shipped them hundreds of copies at a huge discount in order for them to move a ton during CSI's Xmas sales. I know several people who are ordering or are considering ordering Robotech as we speak, due to the CSI discount. Even just the box game nets enough figs for someone to start an army, or swap with another player to get a decent sized force of one or the other.

and yet JD if they had gone with the 50% off sale right off the back, that might have been believable but the fact they started with a lower % off and have been increasing it, just tells me they are getting rid of the game to make room for other stuff, so are clearancing it out, why so soon is anyones guess, but that's what it appears to be doing, and wouldn't be surprised if that price goes even lower(unless it sells out).

I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

Asterios wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Hey guys, SecretSanta2014 for an additional 5% off at CoolStuffInc.

And again, I'd like to point out that their 50% off Warmachine/Hordes sale and MiniatureMarket's 40% off Warmachine/Hordes sale is entirely the reason that I got into Warmachine and Hordes (with Menoth, Minions, and Circle).

Very often huge sales are subsidized by the publisher in order to move product. (This is what actually happened with Privateer Press and Miniature Market. Warmachine had dropped to #4 in the top 5 minis game lists, and after the 40% sales, rose back to #3). Notice the stock levels for the Robotech product at CSI. I can easily imagine Palladium shipped them hundreds of copies at a huge discount in order for them to move a ton during CSI's Xmas sales. I know several people who are ordering or are considering ordering Robotech as we speak, due to the CSI discount. Even just the box game nets enough figs for someone to start an army, or swap with another player to get a decent sized force of one or the other.

and yet JD if they had gone with the 50% off sale right off the back, that might have been believable but the fact they started with a lower % off and have been increasing it, just tells me they are getting rid of the game to make room for other stuff, so are clearancing it out, why so soon is anyones guess, but that's what it appears to be doing, and wouldn't be surprised if that price goes even lower(unless it sells out).

So CoolStuffInc's stock room consists of a broom closet? No, it was on sale the moment it was received, which implies that it is a Publisher-funded sale, and not CSI saying 'woops, did we order a pallet? Get this out of here!" Unless CSI has vastly different customers than Miniature Market, who sold out of Robotech a week ago (at their 25% off) and got a restock in on Monday. Most likely Palladium sold direct to CSI at, say 35%-40% of MSRP (usual distributor discount, 35 or 40% of MSRP, distributor sells to stores at 50% of msrp,making about 10% profit), so CSI started the sale at 60% of msrp and moved to 50% of msrp. They would be making $10-$20 per base game sold.


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WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

Yeah, again, the Privateer Press/Miniature Market subsidized sale worked on me. I bought about 500 bucks from them during that sale after discount, so about 900 retail. Since then I've bought even more, and now I play Warmachine about once per week. That gak works.

It is not uncommon to have loss leader sales, to bring someone in with one product that you barely break even on and make profits from extras with better margins.

The problem here is that for $100 someone can get a hefty pile of the 'chaff' figures across 2 Cores. Imagine someone or a group does that, or hell even grabs 3 or 4 across a couple of friends.

So that leaves... Spartan/Phalanx packs and Artillery Pod packs. I mean, we've discussed the raw value found in the core boxes for ages, but this kind of shines a spotlight on it. Why would I spend $51 to get 6 VTs when I could spend $50 to get 5 VTs, 4 Destroids, 12 Pods and a Command Pack?

Even if I *utterly* needed that 6th VT, it'd be more efficient to get a core box and a spare VT box.

Basically, the moment you want 2-4+ expansions worth of figures that are found in the core box, it's better to go with the core box if it's remotely affordable.

As long as Wave Two remains "when it's done!", people's force building options are going to remain rather stagnant, and as much as I can appreciate them not wanting to back themselves into a corner, the very nature of this style of game kind of demands growth over time.

People point out that other games like X-Wing and Warmahordes have seen similar sales to bring in fresh blood, but those product lines also presumably had more than 7 SKUs, and new product arriving every month or two, not one set to start with and possibly 6 months to a year or more before the next wave hit shelves.

This isn't a purely apples to apples comparison.

 judgedoug wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Hey guys, SecretSanta2014 for an additional 5% off at CoolStuffInc.

And again, I'd like to point out that their 50% off Warmachine/Hordes sale and MiniatureMarket's 40% off Warmachine/Hordes sale is entirely the reason that I got into Warmachine and Hordes (with Menoth, Minions, and Circle).

Very often huge sales are subsidized by the publisher in order to move product. (This is what actually happened with Privateer Press and Miniature Market. Warmachine had dropped to #4 in the top 5 minis game lists, and after the 40% sales, rose back to #3). Notice the stock levels for the Robotech product at CSI. I can easily imagine Palladium shipped them hundreds of copies at a huge discount in order for them to move a ton during CSI's Xmas sales. I know several people who are ordering or are considering ordering Robotech as we speak, due to the CSI discount. Even just the box game nets enough figs for someone to start an army, or swap with another player to get a decent sized force of one or the other.

and yet JD if they had gone with the 50% off sale right off the back, that might have been believable but the fact they started with a lower % off and have been increasing it, just tells me they are getting rid of the game to make room for other stuff, so are clearancing it out, why so soon is anyones guess, but that's what it appears to be doing, and wouldn't be surprised if that price goes even lower(unless it sells out).

So CoolStuffInc's stock room consists of a broom closet? No, it was on sale the moment it was received, which implies that it is a Publisher-funded sale, and not CSI saying 'woops, did we order a pallet? Get this out of here!" Unless CSI has vastly different customers than Miniature Market, who sold out of Robotech a week ago (at their 25% off) and got a restock in on Monday. Most likely Palladium sold direct to CSI at, say 35%-40% of MSRP (usual distributor discount, 35 or 40% of MSRP, distributor sells to stores at 50% of msrp,making about 10% profit), so CSI started the sale at 60% of msrp and moved to 50% of msrp. They would be making $10-$20 per base game sold.


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WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

Yeah, again, the Privateer Press/Miniature Market subsidized sale worked on me. I bought about 500 bucks from them during that sale after discount, so about 900 retail. Since then I've bought even more, and now I play Warmachine about once per week. That gak works.

the thing of it is, most companies like this do not usually keep stock in for long, for the mere fact they need to sell it and move it before any interest wanes on product, so they don't have a back log of product sitting around gathering dust in their warehouse, when CSI starts putting stuff at 50% or more off MSRP then they are looking to sell out and not restock, other items they have done this with has been the case, some items usually sell out at say a 50% discount, but some items usually go lower in price then that like some of their other items which are down to 75% off or so, companies like CSI do not look at the per cost unit price but the overall order price, so say they ordered a 100 games at say $50 ea. for a total of $5K, then sold 50 games at $100 ea. for a total of $5K, they have broke even, so remaining stock is their profit margin before costs of running a business, so then they can list the remaining stock at a discount, while still making a profit, but if game sales slow down they still have room to increase the discount off, but once the discount hits 50% off then its on a downhill slope of clearancing out, remember they don't want to keep product lying around, since product sitting on the shelves is costing them money, when it comes to selling product out there its a dog eat dog world and if anything shows the slightest sign of waning in sales, it gets cut to make room for the new big product coming out.

Now this does not mean RRT is on its death throws either, it just means that CSI feels they could use the room better for something else, or something new, also they do this with even good product that has a good reputation, but sales have lagged, its all in how fast the % off increases on a product to give an idea of what sales are like, so say they increase the discount in a week on the game, that is not a good sign, also they need to clear stuff out for finalizing year sales for tax purposes remember the end quarter is the big quarter.

 Forar wrote:
It is not uncommon to have loss leader sales, to bring someone in with one product that you barely break even on and make profits from extras with better margins.

The problem here is that for $100 someone can get a hefty pile of the 'chaff' figures across 2 Cores. Imagine someone or a group does that, or hell even grabs 3 or 4 across a couple of friends.

...

As long as Wave Two remains "when it's done!", people's force building options are going to remain rather stagnant, and as much as I can appreciate them not wanting to back themselves into a corner, the very nature of this style of game kind of demands growth over time.

That's precisely the reason that GW stopped including ONLY core troops in their box sets. Dark Vengeance is a great value, but how many Hellbrutes and Lords and Librarians do you need? With Warhammer 8 as well, sure, the skaven clanrats are great, but heroes on great eagles and wizards? Meanwhile 40k 2nd/3rd and WHFB 4/5/6 were so great to split with people because they included the actual core troop models, so no one ever bought more Empire Handgunners in 6th edition.

Needless to say, I just ordered 4 more boxes of Destroids. I'm contemplating another main box set, and giving one faction/rules/dice to an interested friend for a Xmas gift.

We also do not know the state of wave 2, basically, at all, other than a few posts on Facebook and elsewhere that all the design work was done and that tooling was underway. That was a month or more ago? Since everything is all wild speculation anyway, I could see it being done in a few months and them releasing multiple retail waves as they print boxes/etc, while the KS backers get our stuff in one lump. Shrug, we don't know, simple as that.

Plus the amount of time it takes to assemble figs means that by the time you have a force ready to go, wave 2 will be available!

 Forar wrote:
It is not uncommon to have loss leader sales, to bring someone in with one product that you barely break even on and make profits from extras with better margins.

The problem here is that for $100 someone can get a hefty pile of the 'chaff' figures across 2 Cores. Imagine someone or a group does that, or hell even grabs 3 or 4 across a couple of friends.

So that leaves... Spartan/Phalanx packs and Artillery Pod packs. I mean, we've discussed the raw value found in the core boxes for ages, but this kind of shines a spotlight on it. Why would I spend $51 to get 6 VTs when I could spend $50 to get 5 VTs, 4 Destroids, 12 Pods and a Command Pack?

Even if I *utterly* needed that 6th VT, it'd be more efficient to get a core box and a spare VT box.

Basically, the moment you want 2-4+ expansions worth of figures that are found in the core box, it's better to go with the core box if it's remotely affordable.

As long as Wave Two remains "when it's done!", people's force building options are going to remain rather stagnant, and as much as I can appreciate them not wanting to back themselves into a corner, the very nature of this style of game kind of demands growth over time.

People point out that other games like X-Wing and Warmahordes have seen similar sales to bring in fresh blood, but those product lines also presumably had more than 7 SKUs, and new product arriving every month or two, not one set to start with and possibly 6 months to a year or more before the next wave hit shelves.

This isn't a purely apples to apples comparison.

And there in lies the problem, people are saying that PB gave CSI a great deal to drum up interest and yet that is not the case since they (PB) will be shooting themselves in the foot, since its sales they lose on their site, and other distributors lose, so they will want the same deal from PB, so I seriously doubt PB gave CSI a good deal, CSI is clearing out RRT to make room for other product.

 judgedoug wrote:
We also do not know the state of wave 2, basically, at all, other than a few posts on Facebook and elsewhere that all the design work was done and that tooling was underway. That was a month or more ago? Since everything is all wild speculation anyway, I could see it being done in a few months and them releasing multiple retail waves as they print boxes/etc, while the KS backers get our stuff in one lump. Shrug, we don't know, simple as that.

I don't think it'd shock anyone to hear that I highly doubt the bolded is remotely true. They could have been sharing the "3Ds"/renders and Pre Production Prototypes and 3D Printed sprue piece tests, but instead have remained silent.

They've been adamant about not providing release dates, but utter silence is not heartening.

Occam's Razor: what's more likely; that the company that took a year and a half to do 12 figures worth of molds is on the verge of doing the other two dozen or so within the next few months, or that they are simply are so far away they know that admitting/showcasing what they have done is going to stir up the pot that has just recently begun to settle again?

Is it impossible such a thing might occur? No. But with Chinese New Year Round 2 looming, I'd feel pretty comfortable betting against it happening.

Them releasing a few W2 figures sometime in 2015 before they're vaguely ready to begin delivering to backers, however, I can totally see happening.

For the good of the game and to build Hype and Buzz, of course!

So, yeah, we don't know much about W2.

But only because the people who know anything about its status haven't deigned to tell us anything about it.

And busy as they've been with delivery W1, if they were remotely as far along as such a statement might indicate, it's not like slapping a couple of images and a "here's something to whet your appetite" as an update would take much time. They certainly managed to knock out a good dozen+ such updates out during 2013 and 2014, even while putting in 120 hour weeks (minor hyperbole present).

wouldn't be surprised if they broke wave 2 into 2 waves, with the bulk units being in one wave and the Character(con/backer exclusive) units being in another wave.

 Mike1975 wrote:
GU-11 has Rapid Fire, description on card says in Battloid it can fire and additional time. It does not appear on the Armored VT cards though but it does on the Supers.

Sounds like more fodder for that FAQ/Errata that has been in the works for... how many months now?

Yes, yes, PB is busy as feth, I'm sure.

But the game is 'in the wild', models are being built, people are starting to play. Clear, concise information is needed.

Maybe they are taking PR lessons from Mantic?


It's done and shipping--no time for pictures!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ps: what is going on with APAC shipping? If Macross Island were real, they'd be the last place to get any Robotechnology.

And as has been stated a hundred times in this very thread; show, don't tell.

Frankly, it is not enough for them to simply say "progress is happening on wave 2!"

Renders, pics, actual details indicative of progress would all be great.

But, at least personally, I am well past the benefit of the doubt.

PB needs to invest in a PR firm and remove Kevin from the equation, since he does more damage to PB then any haters could ever do.

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

No,, you get the product to the kickstarter backers, who already paid for the product to be manufactured, this is hardly win win, and you are a complete ass.
Oh, my mistake, you meant by not sending to backers it's win win for pathetic lying scum, and you're still an ass. Come on mate, explain to us all the mysterious reasons why PB wasn't lying about sending to backers first, I'm sick of your relentless defending, put up or shut up.

Stupid exalt button, that's not edit....

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

There is so much wrong with that statement that it is hard to decide where to start without running afoul of Rule #1. You prioritize getting the product into the hands of the consumer WHO PAID FIRST OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. You don't build a better community by screwing over the people who believed in the IP or the company enough to fund the development of the project before anyone else. Palladium has shown a pattern of shipping to those who have yet to pay or have just paid (and are at risk for chargebacks/refunds) over those who have little to no recourse and who paid in good faith expecting the same on the part of Palladium. That isn't a win win for anyone, including Palladium. They "win" by getting more in their coffers immediately but they do so at the expense of the fans who believed in them most to the detriment of the game. Only time will tell if the new folks who are buying at 50% off will be enough to replace those who were disgusted with a year and half of misdirection and broken promises.

If meeting the bare minimum of their legal responsibilities to avoid legal troubles (the number of minis at an average quality for price with mostly functional rules) while violating multiple times both the letter and the spirit of their KS contract with backers is your idea of a "win win", then we'll have to agree to disagree.

 warboss wrote:

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

There is so much wrong with that statement that it is hard to decide where to start without running afoul of Rule #1. You prioritize getting the product into the hands of the consumer WHO PAID FIRST OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. You don't build a better community by screwing over the people who believed in the IP or the company enough to fund the development of the project before anyone else. Palladium has shown a pattern of shipping to those who will pay or have just paid (and are at risk for chargebacks/refunds) over those who have little to no recourse and who paid in good faith expecting the same on the part of Palladium. That isn't a win win for anyone, including Palladium. They "win" by getting more in their coffers immediately but they do so at the expense of the fans who believed in them most to the detriment of the game. Only time will tell if the new folks who are buying at 50% off will be enough to replace those who were disgusted with a year and half of misdirection and broken promises.

And that's why I will never back another PB KS or pre order or anything, might as well wait till the game hits some online retailers and get it for about the same amount.

Asterios wrote:
And that's why I will never back another PB KS or pre order or anything, might as well wait till the game hits some online retailers and get it for about the same amount.

The really irritating thing about this statement is I had considered exactly this happening and then... "nah, couldn't happen, no matter how bad, it is a reasonable deal!".
Oh well, gives me a chance to gripe about Wave 2.
Buying from retail would be no fun at all.

You prioritize getting the product into the hands of the consumer WHO PAID FIRST OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. You don't build a better community by screwing over the people who believed in the IP or the company enough to fund the development of the project before anyone else.

Warboss, I couldn't agree with you more on most of your statements, but, I feel you might be misinterpreting what I wrote. The issue I thought I was commenting on consisted of disagreeing with the notion of selling the game at a reduced price so as to make room for other products. I did not presume to downplay the ROW deliveries or saying that you should screw your backers, or alienate the people you helped you fund the game. If that was your interpretation, I apologize. The situation sucks for ROW backers right now, and I wish I could improve the situation but I can't. I agree that there is no "Win" in this big picture scenario. I wasn't commenting on that.

Thanks for the clarification. While I still disagree with what you wrote, the subsequent point clears up some of it that was mistaken on my part. I would point out though that in reference to "The product is already paid for by the distributor" statement, each and every item was also paid for FIRST by a pledger if there is a single pledge left unfulfilled that includes that item. That isn't a win for the community that according to palladium made possible the game with their funding.

Months before palladium announced by royal decree that they'd be selling at gencon before fulfilling pledges, they had the factories prioritize production of ONLY what they would be selling at gencon and not what would aid the fulfillment of the KS pledges best. That was evident when karma bit them on their donkey and they didn't get it in time. In the intervening month between containers, they managed to only ship out 5% of the pledges because they put their backers who paid a year earlier down the list of priorities. The sham vote wouldn't have affected anything even if it had been run with any honesty. The only thing they were honest about was that selling at gencon wouldn't affect shipping much because they couldn't ship much of anything because of the low priority they gave the KS compared with Gencon. They then proceeded to do the same thing with ROW backers for short term gain.

Maybe this constant reprioritization of pledgers down the list is because they're seriously short of funds and need them immediately... I dunno. I do know that I don't plan to support them again for more than $1 (so I can comment) in their future endeavors. That to me, given my interest in Robotech, is a lose lose.

 warboss wrote:
I do know that I don't plan to support them again for more than $1 (so I can comment) in their future endeavors.

Not just comment, perhaps have an equal say in voting as to how the project will be handled.

I'm sure some will see this as needless pedantry, but I don't think it can be overstated what kind of precedent they've set with the Gencon vote.

$1 to comment: a good deal.

$1 to comment and have a vote in any contentious issue that might be put before the community? An incredible deal.

Note: I'm neither implying that they should have just opened it to non-backers, or that somehow backers who gave more should have had more of a say (and frankly, such a state would have only benefitted me). Simply noting what happened and extrapolating forward.

Just a comment. The understanding that these products have already been paid for by the distributor; in this case CMON, may not be totally correct. Even in my industry, there are cases where credit for products have been extended from 30-90 days. And from the case of Maelstrom and their importer, it seems such practices do exist in the miniature industry as well so it's not confirmed that; as WRRD said, the product is already paid for by the distributor.

 Forar wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I do know that I don't plan to support them again for more than $1 (so I can comment) in their future endeavors.

Not just comment, perhaps have an equal say in voting as to how the project will be handled.

I'm sure some will see this as needless pedantry, but I don't think it can be overstated what kind of precedent they've set with the Gencon vote.

$1 to comment: a good deal.

$1 to comment and have a vote in any contentious issue that might be put before the community? An incredible deal.

Note: I'm neither implying that they should have just opened it to non-backers, or that somehow backers who gave more should have had more of a say (and frankly, such a state would have only benefitted me). Simply noting what happened and extrapolating forward.

I didn't count the vote part simply because palladium polls/votes are shams. $1 isn't worth participating in a farce where the result is preordained long before the vote is even called. YMMV of course.


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Sining wrote:
Just a comment. The understanding that these products have already been paid for by the distributor; in this case CMON, may not be totally correct. Even in my industry, there are cases where credit for products have been extended from 30-90 days. And from the case of Maelstrom and their importer, it seems such practices do exist in the miniature industry as well so it's not confirmed that; as WRRD said, the product is already paid for by the distributor.

That is a good point and true for smaller companies (at least) here in the US. I'd guess that it is dependent on if it is in the individual distributor's terms. I do know I've seen smaller developers complain about it though along with unfair return clauses where they can ship back just the covers on rpg books (just like in the broader book trade) and not have to pay anything. In the case of minis, I've heard they can just spring it on the publisher/developer. IIRC, that was part of the reason TSR ran into trouble back in the 1990's but that was more for their novels and not the RPG books.

I had read that TSR had dozens of pallets of stuff going all the way back to 1st ed.

I imagine that CSI deal direct and not thru Alliance/Distributors. Then the holiday sale is basically wholesale to the public. Makes sense to me. Distriboturs make small marring on a ton of product the same thing that CSI is doing.

The Biggest Feature of RTT is the models. The biggest downside of RTT is the models. My God it's full of sprues! Was my first thought.

$1 to gain the ability to comment on PB's next campaign is brobably all I am willing to put in.

$1 to comment and vote in a [rigged] vote to allow them to sell to conventioneers before backers doesn't seem like more value to me. Especially as I'd have to actually give them that $1 to do so as any vote will be long after the campaign closes.

I'd rather SAY I'll give them $1 so I can comment during the campaign, then withdraw it in the final day. That means I get to comment on the campaign without actually giving them any more money.

Of course, that also works for $1,000 pledges, but in case I can't get to a computer to withdraw my support in time, I won't risk that much.

P.S. Thanks Bob for the great line to add to my Sig!

 Desert Lurker wrote:
The Biggest Feature of RTT is the models. The biggest downside of RTT is the models. My God it's full of sprues! Was my first thought.

I still giggle when I look into the box of "stuff" from the RTT shipment.
I fish out some sprues and assemble, 1/2 hour to hour later, look in the box, go all wide-eyed and fish out some more...
I refuse to look at the decal sheets anymore, they concern me as much as the sprues with the bunch of tiny "stuff".

I actually like the challenge of all this but getting to a point where I can play a game with painted miniatures at my rate is probably late January.
No casual player is ever going to play this unless some "veteran" supplies the models to play with.
Or I would suggest they play Zentraedi for ease of assembly, though the Glaug chin guns LOVE to snap in half when being clipped out of the sprue.

It all looks like a mountain of plastic, bordering on overwhelming yet I want to buy MOAR! Tomahawks because it is such an iconic stomping robot to me.
I am tempted to whip-up a design for all the Zentraedi pods in Battletech format and try playing it that way (probably someone has already done this).

And on the KS comments, someone has commented that EU backers can get RRT boxes from Amazon.Co.Uk

Yes they can, at £35.85 for a Valk box! I can get 2 boxes from CSI at $17.99 each, pay $19 and change in shipping, and probably still have them before EU rewards go out for just under that amount!

Not that I will. It's a fair bet that there are some UK backers that went in expecting to sell off any extra that will have a big disappointment when their stuff gets here and the market is saturated. There will probably be some in stores bargain bins not long after EU retail gets some, so I can probably do about that without the hassle.

My apologies to WRRD, this KS ( well, actually both KS's ;-) ) has made me extremely angry, and I shouldn't take it out on fellow gamers. I'm sorry for calling you an ass.

So would a legitimate fear be that soon what we received we would have paid more than what we could buy with the various "sales"?
I know the wave 2 items throw a proper comparison out the window but still...

 Talizvar wrote:
So would a legitimate fear be that soon what we received we would have paid more than what we could buy with the various "sales"?
I know the wave 2 items throw a proper comparison out the window but still...

In pseudo-defense of PB on that point, that's always a risk with any "retail" KS. Mantic has had a few items that ended up being much cheaper after the KS. Dreamforge during sales also drops below KS prices if you weren't getting a bulk discount on the KS. For example, if you wanted a single Leviathan Mortis from the KS you would have paid $89. If you wanted it now, you'd pay $82.50 from Miniature Market. There have been other sales that dropped the price sub-$80 at times, and that's without tying up your money for 1.5 years (in the case of the Mortis).

Any product that's going to enter into retail distribution has a decent chance of being equal to or cheaper just owing to the way distributors work. It's not like you're going to lose a massive amount of money, but faith in the company and the desire to see them succeed (which has a value as well) should be a component of a KS pledge.

@Joyboozer Apology accepted. Thank you.Tensions have been running hot lately. This KS has been drawn out too long and angered many. It hasn't helped that those who want to see it fail or have a grudge against PB have fanned the flames.

I'm not saying that everything is rainbows or unicorn farts either. But there are quite a few things that PB is doing in the background to make the game and situation batter (FAQ's and additional content, ways to improve shipping for wave 2) If people choose to not believe that then that is their problem. I have tried to be honest with everyone here. I will give information when can, but I cannot give out information when it may be detrimental to the future of he game, or info that's given to me in confidence. Nor will I give out information I don't have. PB is a business and is tying to do good by the backers and produce a tabletop game from scratch. They are not going to be able to please everyone and there were some EXTREMELY diverse expectations for this project going in. some expectations were not met nor will they ever be met. During playtesting alone, I had several persons who wanted to take the game in directions where it simply couldn't go. Suggestions were made that would create more problems than solve. Many different styles of games and mechanics were researched from GW, Infinity, warmachine, Maifaux, and several others.. There was even a complete rewrite early in the process. Again to preserve the Show being on the tabletop.This long evolution of a game happens in most games, according to the designers that I've talked to, but it is usually in the background and it takes several months/years to complete. The problem with this KS is that it was too open and aggressive for a small company to do in the preliminary time frame. Many things that were taken as easy to do, or completed, and should not delay things have come back to delay things for weeks or with the miniatures, months, which compound the time frame of a project.. These are things that normally no one hears about or never knows about. In this KS atmosphere you the backer know that things are delayed and it is pissing everyone off..

For the kickstarter development there are some things to keep in mind as well that can justify getting upset:
- Core deliverable timeline: Getting models made = Design, approval, mold design, mold manufacture, manufacture of sprues, packaging.

Rules were probably the easiest to develop with the least time consuming aspects of it. I thought Alessio Cavatore was involved who used to work for Games Workshop so it was not like they had newbies working on this.

It will be interesting to see if revisions could be made to the rulebook and be available for individual sale or an actual FAQ will be released.
They could make it fun and publish a sticker overlabel for the rulebook!

The real damage done to this whole thing in order to get ANY kind of market is the models are not suitable for an amateur model builder. The ONLY fix available for this is to update the "instructions" to show all configurations and a "map" published of the sprues to know what goes where since there are no labels. This may salvage things a little (I would suggest forwarding a "kit" to suppliers to provide with the Robotech game box).

I like suggesting solutions rather than griping but there is this real feeling of "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.".

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
@Joyboozer Apology accepted. Thank you.Tensions have been running hot lately. This KS has been drawn out too long and angered many. It hasn't helped that those who want to see it fail or have a grudge against PB have fanned the flames.

I'm not saying that everything is rainbows or unicorn farts either. But there are quite a few things that PB is doing in the background to make the game and situation batter (FAQ's and additional content, ways to improve shipping for wave 2) If people choose to not believe that then that is their problem. I have tried to be honest with everyone here. I will give information when can, but I cannot give out information when it may be detrimental to the future of he game, or info that's given to me in confidence. Nor will I give out information I don't have. PB is a business and is tying to do good by the backers and produce a tabletop game from scratch. They are not going to be able to please everyone and there were some EXTREMELY diverse expectations for this project going in. some expectations were not met nor will they ever be met. During playtesting alone, I had several persons who wanted to take the game in directions where it simply couldn't go. Suggestions were made that would create more problems than solve. Many different styles of games and mechanics were researched from GW, Infinity, warmachine, Maifaux, and several others.. There was even a complete rewrite early in the process. Again to preserve the Show being on the tabletop.This long evolution of a game happens in most games, according to the designers that I've talked to, but it is usually in the background and it takes several months/years to complete. The problem with this KS is that it was too open and aggressive for a small company to do in the preliminary time frame. Many things that were taken as easy to do, or completed, and should not delay things have come back to delay things for weeks or with the miniatures, months, which compound the time frame of a project.. These are things that normally no one hears about or never knows about. In this KS atmosphere you the backer know that things are delayed and it is pissing everyone off..

WRRD, 1st. off I do not offer you an apology, I do not feel you deserve one at this time, also am I one of those ones who you say has a grudge against PB? and why would I have a grudge against PB? before this KS I didn't even know PB was still around and when they were around I loved their Robotech RPG system, so any ire garnered against them has been because of this KS.

And I always love it when people say I know something, but can't tell you, then why bother telling us that you know something?, you claim PB is a business and is trying to do good by the backers, then 1st. off why would they lie to the backers? why would they make promise after promise to the backers then turn around and willingly break that promise to the backers? those are not the actions of an honest business or a company trying to do good by the backers, it is nothing but dishonesty and deceipt by PB and has caused much ire and malcontent with the backers.

Furthermore PB's silence will only anger more backers, since the current wave of discontent is "what about wave 2?"

and has been shown by other posters here and there, PB's actions are now dragging your name into the mud. and you continue to make excuses for them, they do not even bother, because they cannot make excuses for lies and breaking their word.

it is said if a persons word is no good, they are no good, PB has proven their word is no good, so they are no good, no amount of excuses or such can excuse the fact they maliciously lied to the backers and broke their promises.

(And I believe they did it while smiling and laughing, but that's just my belief)

 Talizvar wrote:
So would a legitimate fear be that soon what we received we would have paid more than what we could buy with the various "sales"?
I know the wave 2 items throw a proper comparison out the window but still...

We can't really say until Wave Two, but I don't think so.

I did a comparison between MSRP, Retail and what we effectively paid (proportionally) in the Battle Cry tier, and it gets pretty low. Even just based on rough estimates for how much the Limited Edition figures might be worth (either purchased at conventions or on the secondary market), and I'm guessing a BC ended up being maybe 1/4 of MSRP, so even at 1/2 off at CSI, we're still ahead of the game.

Even a fairly drastic 'get this gak off our shelves' 75% off would likely be closer to the KS prices than actively losing us money.

There is one caveat though; add ons. Anything bought as an add on may end up being vaguely the same price, if not cheaper on the secondary market. That MAC II I paid $40 for? Could quite possibly be that much or less at CSI, depending on whether or not they go back up to ~30-40% off in time.

 Forar wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
So would a legitimate fear be that soon what we received we would have paid more than what we could buy with the various "sales"?
I know the wave 2 items throw a proper comparison out the window but still...

We can't really say until Wave Two, but I don't think so.

I did a comparison between MSRP, Retail and what we effectively paid (proportionally) in the Battle Cry tier, and it gets pretty low. Even just based on rough estimates for how much the Limited Edition figures might be worth (either purchased at conventions or on the secondary market), and I'm guessing a BC ended up being maybe 1/4 of MSRP, so even at 1/2 off at CSI, we're still ahead of the game.

Even a fairly drastic 'get this gak off our shelves' 75% off would likely be closer to the KS prices than actively losing us money.

There is one caveat though; add ons. Anything bought as an add on may end up being vaguely the same price, if not cheaper on the secondary market. That MAC II I paid $40 for? Could quite possibly be that much or less at CSI, depending on whether or not they go back up to ~30-40% off in time.

Actually right now Forar, the individual components for the system are cheaper then they cost thru the KS, the base game thru CSI $50, the base game thru KS $80, add on packs about $20 thru KS, thru CSI $16-18. only when you get into the BC and above does the value favor the backer, but only if we see wave 2 and with the lack of any info from PB regarding wave 2, there is no guarantee of that, sine we see PB has a track record of lying to their backers.

*sigh*

Which is why I specifically noted the BC tier, AND stated that the add ons (and yes, the core box only tiers, the whole 200 of them they sold) were iffy if not worse deals.

Dude, don't go all Lola on me here. You're bett.... you can be better than that.


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Note: apologies for snipping like this, but from that giant cluster of text it seemed simply to trim the key point I was going to address.

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
It hasn't helped that those who want to see it fail

Calling them "those who want to see it fail" seems awfully reductive. Those who express their frustration in nonconstructive manners, perhaps, but I don't know many people who paid $140-600 (the vast majority of the backers having bought at least 1 Battle Cry) or more just to watch it fail. If that viewpoint has changed for the worse in the last year and a half, that's unfortunate, but how many actual "$1 trolls" are there? Not many, I'm guessing.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but I don't see it as 'wanting it to fail' at all, but most whom are simply disappointed/frustrated past their point of tolerating further excuses/failings (from their perspective). Be it the models, the rules, the delays, the lack of communication (previous and ongoing alike), there are plenty of subjective and objective things to critique about the handling of the project. Perhaps that anger/frustration has become a sentiment of 'burn it all down' for some, but it's not like even the harshest of critics backed with a desire to see it flop and to get nothing for their patronage.

(FAQ's and additional content, ways to improve shipping for wave 2)

Which may be the case, but it's been a while since we heard much more than 'we're totally working on it!', and having heard that for over a year with various aspects of wave one, that simply isn't going to cut it. A sword that cuts both ways; yes, I'd rather them put the time and thought into proper errata/FAQ documents rather than throw something together in a haphazard fashion, but with over a year and a half since the project went live (plus the half year we were told was put into this before the campaign), surely they have a good direction to go in/tweak towards correcting oversights and missed issues/typos/etc.

It's hard to believe there's just 'so much happening behind the scenes' when we were told that with wave one and look where that got us. Hell, at this point we're hearing even less than we did during wave one (yes, yes, busy with shipping, I know) and somehow we're supposed to believe that as much or more has been done. On faith.

And frankly, simply *starting* a FAQ/Errata and updating it regularly (once a month even) as a living document would go a lot further along than simply being expected to quietly accept that maybe one day we'll see something. Hell, even something as important as "how many times can a GU-11 be fired in Battloid mode?" has been pondered aloud on the PB forums for, what, a month and change now? Surely that's something that can be clearly answered publicly to start such a document off.

produce a tabletop game from scratch.

Given how heavily this ties to the RPG, to the point that Mike was able to reverse engineer most of it just by reading the RPG and comparing it to what we were provided in the campaign, plus help from others (Alessio, Ninja Division) it's not like they were re-inventing the wheel here.

Many different styles of games and mechanics were researched from GW, Infinity, warmachine, Maifaux, and several others..

Too bad they didn't adopt LOS from Malifaux. Yes, I'm still banging that drum.

There was even a complete rewrite early in the process.

Huh. Good to have that said aloud by someone 'in the know'. Makes some of the things we heard over the last year and a half make a lot more sense.

The problem with this KS is that it was too open and aggressive for a small company to do in the preliminary time frame. Many things that were taken as easy to do, or completed, and should not delay things have come back to delay things for weeks or with the miniatures, months, which compound the time frame of a project.. These are things that normally no one hears about or never knows about. In this KS atmosphere you the backer know that things are delayed and it is pissing everyone off..

That's something they should have recognized going into the project. If they want money up front and tell the backers that they'll be kept in the loop, they shouldn't have been surprised when backers ask to be kept in the loop.

If they'd not wanted to worry about it, they could've gotten a loan or other typical source of funding and simply released it in their own time.

And frankly, to hear other talk about PB staff discussing a potential second campaign at conventions tells me that for whatever bullgak, shenanigans and frustration dealing with 'some aspects' of the community there might have been, clearly there's a sentiment that the ends have justified the means to get there.

Not sure it is all worth getting personally upset with anyone.

Wave 1 is pretty much getting delivered and physical product is floating around so it is not "vaporware".

It looks like PB is reasonably committed to wave 2 since the little leaflet in the main box is showing what is coming.

The main risk is the PB "coming soon" being an indefinite thing like other publications of theirs.

I do not like their public relations, their lack of adhering to a schedule, on-going money problems, their pushing unexpected/hidden costs onto customers.

I am so glad there is nothing else in their intellectual property I would ever want.
It will be a relief to turn my back on them forever as a supplier since I HATE to reward bad behavior.

The cookie has crumbled: they have failed in making a tabletop miniature game that is accessible to the general public, they were so close.
At least with what was received I can have some games with those willing to learn a fairly straightforward game.
I just have to provide the miniatures.

<edit> And my Battletech friends are happy to have some old standard mechs back!

Ok so I've got the cards what I think is pretty much done. I've already started my own printing and laminating process and just finished the UEDF. If you are interested see the link on the Signature.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Ok so I've got the cards what I think is pretty much done. I've already started my own printing and laminating process and just finished the UEDF. If you are interested see the link on the Signature.

Pretty much done or 98% final? If it is the latter, we'll be waiting till Xmas 2015 given the Robotech precedent set.


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 Talizvar wrote:

I am so glad there is nothing else in their intellectual property I would ever want.
It will be a relief to turn my back on them forever as a supplier since I HATE to reward bad behavior.

That is where I'm at as well. I walked away from Palladium rpgs a decade ago because I simply outgrew them like a cheap greasy corner burger joint you enjoyed as a kid only because you couldn't afford/didn't know any better. I didn't hate them despite knowing their shady history and being lied to at gencon regarding their upcoming rpg releases for a decade...I simply pitied them and was sad the source material I liked so much didn't get the game and creative design support it deserved. After the past year, I actively dislike the company and will share my negative experiences with anyone thinking about becoming their customer. I'm sure some will see that as "haters gonna hate" but I see it as "gamers lookin out for gamers" instead since Palladium has put us dead last on their list of priorities (right after migrating fowl).

I'd just like to get the stuff I paid for and warn everyone I can to stay clear of PB.
If they get in financial trouble (hopefully after wave2 is complete ) - like the time of the Betrayal(tm), then I just hope the company dies, so no other unwitting gamers get sucked in due to nostalgia.

I was a fan of PB (despite all their bs) before this kickstarter. It's a shame I'm not now.

To be pedantic, it was The Crisis Of Treachery.

Unless there was also A Betrayal I'm not aware of?

I hereby nominate the Time of BetrayalTM to be the period of time starting 48 hours post kickstarter completion until 98% fulfillment!

Ah yes, indeed it was the crisis of treachery(tm)! So we are in the time of betrayal(tm) right now? Sounds about right! It could be the End times but GW have already nabbed it.

To be entirely honest I did vote yes to gencon, under the false assumption that I'd have product in hand a few weeks later (so naive). Well I've learnt the hard way.

Ah, the rest is all for giggles now.
With what we have received, if I feel a bit antsy about Wave 2 I pull out a sprue and put a model together.
Suddenly I am in much less of a hurry.
Almost got enough assembly for some 150-odd point demo game, just got to put my Drop Zone Commander city together (what was I doing while waiting for Wave 1??).
I really should buy the damaged city version as well, fighting in a pristine cityscape seems so Walt Disney.
It is all coming together for a reasonable game to play despite PB's worst efforts!
Funny how I got so upset from all the White Knight comments of "Be happy you get something Robotech at all!"
I got stuff, I am happy.
I just am trying to figure out how to give payback to PB making it more of a rollercoaster ride than it needed to be... silly goats they are.

The latest update from PB is a joke. So they shot the &$!@ on Skype for a few hours. How about pictures.

The whole "haters gonna hate" excuse is just a bunch of BS. PB is responsible for pissing off many a backer. I keep seeing new names on the ks objecting to what PB is doing. Some are long time fans who are disgusted with Kevin and his excuses. It's a weak defense that only sycophants believe because they can't see past their rainbow tinted glasses.


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Here's an explanation why we have so many bisected parts and why ND had to redo their files.


"@Khyron... As John and the other employees at Ninja Division have said on their forums and Facebook. Ninja Division was only hired on for the intial rules set up and miniature "model" design. After they submitted these to PB, PB did what ever they wanted with it. They have no knowledge or say so on the decisions PB made after that.
Example: Current rules are thanks to Carmen of PB and the decision to split the models in half were PB's. And lastly, choosing to use a different Chinese factory than the one Ninja Division uses was all PB's choice as well. Ninja Division pretty much did what they were paid to do then PB decided to go their own direction with it. Using Ninja Division to do all the leg work, then turned it around to make it into their own Frankenstien abomination RPG version of it.
Because the game is nothing like they intionally submitted they don't want to even support it with their line of products. Hence why there is no support , mention, forum or ninja volunteer program for the game through ND. And why it is now up to PB's Megaverse (TM) ambasador program to promote the game. Because, Ninja Divisions name is still attached to the games' models they still post pics of ONLY the models. I have not seen a single pic of the whole game other than the models on Ninja Divisions websites.
Because, they have no say so on what PB decided to do with the models after they were submitted they have no idea on the status of wave 2 either. Best bet is to keep houding the PB forums about a status update on wave 2 and hope that NMI doesn't lock it immediatly after."


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Yeah haters gonna hate. It's not like Kevin informed us about the bait an switch. It's not like he intentionally lied to us.

(Sarcasm)

Who is that from? Is it actually from ND or just someone filling in the blanks? I do recall ND saying all the files needed to be redone but not the explanation of exactly why.

Whelp, I finally started assembly.

Did 3 pods up in about an hour. As an amateur, they're not too awful, but doing another 21-24 of them isn't exactly filling me with glee.

Fighter went together pretty well.

Have started a Guardian. I already loathe not only the person that designed this figure but humanity itself. By the time it's done and I even look at the Battloid sprue I will not be held accountable for my actions or the body count that may be associated with them.

Edit: that quote comes from the KS comments, someone named "Jay D."

Come on guys Kevin doesn't always lie, it's just when his lips are moving




...and when he proofreads his weekly updates aloud.

 warboss wrote:
Who is that from? Is it actually from ND or just someone filling in the blanks? I do recall ND saying all the files needed to be redone but not the explanation of exactly why.

It's from a play tester for ND. RRT has been discussed on the ND FB page and their own forums. That's were this info came from. Like Forar said it's from a backer named Jay D.


Forar
I get your frustration. The first model I built was the battloid. Oh how hated the moron that approved it and designed it. Same with the gerwalk model. After building a few of them I've gotten better, but those arms in both modes are a pain.

Actually had quite a crowd of of the local players and customers walking in our FLGS (Avalon) checking out the a friend and me going at it. He played the Zent's and I the RDF

Tom
1 Attrition squad of Battle pods (12)
2 squads of Missile pods (total of four)
Battle Pod recovery Pod
ECM Battle Pod
Zent Leader pod w/Khyron

My self
1 Flight of four Valks
1 Air Group Commander
1 Squad of four Tomahawks

Yes It short change myself but is was a exploratory fight with rules.

Needless to say. It was fast, cut throat, and insane. What was acking us up was we kept mixing it up with 40K rules espacially in the shooting portion. Rolled to hit and then we rolled to wound and then we.....wait.....rolled to hit and if hit do you spend one command point to dodge or roll with it lol

Though one thing that did stand out was separating individual mecha in squad. House roll we go with numbering them on the mini to the unit card. Over kill does not transfer to other mecha unless there is a mecha inline of lane of fire behind the original target

So I backed the game at the Showdown level with an extra Tomahawk/Defender kit. I've only opened one of the two core boxes at this point. I'm starting to wonder if I even need to open the other core.

But I've begun building. I've built all the Zentradi mecha except for my last two Artillery pods. I built the core group plus took a couple of Regalts and turned them into Telenstas. Now I'm like, Hum, which should these be? I considered magnets but I just didn't want to spend the time on that step.

They got to be really easy to do, even with fiddly little bits after a while. I haven't even started painting yet. I figure I'll bore the feet for rods and do a spray primer and then go at them from there.

As for the UEDF stuff, I'm terrified because of all the reports I've seen about those specific models. Are they really that bad to construct or is it just a matter of dry fitting the arm parts and such and being observant of the fiddly little bits?

Jihadin, a friend and me going at it means something different here in oz. I'm guessing.

 Jihadin wrote:

Needless to say. It was fast, cut throat, and insane. What was acking us up was we kept mixing it up with 40K rules espacially in the shooting portion. Rolled to hit and then we rolled to wound and then we.....wait.....rolled to hit and if hit do you spend one command point to dodge or roll with it lol

For my friend and I on our first games some old heavy gear rules were trying to sneak into what we were doing.

Joyboozer wrote:
Jihadin, a friend and me going at it means something different here in oz. I'm guessing.

Probably likely to draw a bigger crowd, too.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Jihadin, a friend and me going at it means something different here in oz. I'm guessing.

Probably likely to draw a bigger crowd, too.

We charge ten dollars a minute

Must be one hell of a show.

Back on topic; feth the Battloid's arms. Seriously. Trying to line up and glue 5 pieces (7 including the forearms in halves) is a giant pain in the ass. Even with the gun and two forearms set up, getting the upper arms and that trio lined up at the same time is less than thrilling.

Think I'll finish these two and then go back to battlepods and fighters. Things I don't mind (as much) assembling.

 Forar wrote:
Must be one hell of a show.

Back on topic; feth the Battloid's arms. Seriously. Trying to line up and glue 5 pieces (7 including the forearms in halves) is a giant pain in the ass. Even with the gun and two forearms set up, getting the upper arms and that trio lined up at the same time is less than thrilling.

Think I'll finish these two and then go back to battlepods and fighters. Things I don't mind (as much) assembling.

Little tad bit of green stuff to help "pose" the arms. Dump a glob of adhesive where needed

The battleoid and guardian double arm poses are a pain to get into place. I found that putting a pin into each wrist (after assembling the arm subassembly) helped out quite a bit.

 Jihadin wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Must be one hell of a show.

Back on topic; feth the Battloid's arms. Seriously. Trying to line up and glue 5 pieces (7 including the forearms in halves) is a giant pain in the ass. Even with the gun and two forearms set up, getting the upper arms and that trio lined up at the same time is less than thrilling.

Think I'll finish these two and then go back to battlepods and fighters. Things I don't mind (as much) assembling.

Little tad bit of green stuff to help "pose" the arms. Dump a glob of adhesive where needed

Gross, now everything I read of yours seems like it's full of sexual innuendo...

Joyboozer wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Must be one hell of a show.

Back on topic; feth the Battloid's arms. Seriously. Trying to line up and glue 5 pieces (7 including the forearms in halves) is a giant pain in the ass. Even with the gun and two forearms set up, getting the upper arms and that trio lined up at the same time is less than thrilling.

Think I'll finish these two and then go back to battlepods and fighters. Things I don't mind (as much) assembling.

Little tad bit of green stuff to help "pose" the arms. Dump a glob of adhesive where needed

Gross, now everything I read of yours seems like it's full of sexual innuendo...

You mean you didn't read it like that before?

Other model build "issues" / comments:

- Veritech battleoid mode: the legs! = two poses, I cut-up the 90 degree bent leg and made it into a 15 degree to look like taking a step and still have the "toe" touch the base to glue down. Going to be a chore to try to make these guys look different other than paint and heads. Considering cutting front and back of feet and trimming / green-stuff to get walking or slightly stepped forward poses. Trying to figure-out how to hack and slash the arms into an upper aiming position (looking down iron sights style). I will probably try this only once, I anticipate this not going well.

- Veritech jet mode: Swing-wing in the back position went better than I thought: Just follow the little cut-out at the back of the wing to the front corner to cut. Looks stylish. I would not suggest doing that for Guardian mode if you have missiles to attach: it may not fit past the shoulders.

- I found that I could not be bothered to magnetize the missile Zen. pods either, I will build to the artillery group card and can split them off to add-on units as needed: should be flexible enough. It would be easy to do however.

- I am having some issues matching feet to legs and then with other legs to the Zen. pods. I have had some interesting poses, but at least they do not all look the same.

- I may have to bite the bullet and glue on a "Command" module to a Tomahawk since a magnet is not looking good, I could put in a pin but that is such a tiny bit it makes no sense. Think I will buy a couple destroid kits: at $15 I really cannot go all that wrong. Want a couple extra for "named" character models.

- REALLY wondering if I should bother waiting for Wave 2 with the "special character" veritechs, it seems rather pointless since every type is modeled and it really is just up to our customization skills.

- With little for visual guide: putting on the missiles last appears to be the way to go. Alignment and spacing was interesting. I think I will set aside two veritechs to be my designated "bombers" for the dropped bombs. It will fit-in with the card add-ons and could be good for some scenarios (gives a chance to make them different). I appreciate how some are mixing load-out just to be stylish but my mentally damaged need for WYSIWYG is preventing me.

- Anyone look at those Glaug arms? I am undecided on drilling through and using wire or beef-up what is there with green-stuff or gluing on some polystyrene in key joint areas. Those are way too thin and too much mechanical advantage to NOT snap off (plus looks really silly for a big-bad command pod). Mind-you I appreciate the strength of this plastic, it is rather impressive.

- Think I will fully laminate over the cards, I had taken one of each type to a hobby shop looking for sleeves (Fantasy Flight Type) and have some issues for supply of the really big cards that are used for Pokémon / Magic. I figure my really old Federation Commander laminated ship cards have survived as-is, these should do fine.

- Flight stands: Really not sure I like the ones provided. Any good alternative clear stands we can get? The Veritech jet is a bit scary since it mounts to the gun pod. I know the "right" way to do things is assemble, paint, then mount to the base but I figure I may only get to prime white and need to play. I may curse this decision later when I go to paint underneath.

Anyway, some thoughts, musings, rants I figured to throw out there. Maybe make a new thread: "Robotech RPG Tactics model assembly support group.".

Was watching the Robotech series again to remind myself on how many of these units looked.
I had no idea how much destroids died like dogs (at least early in the show).
Representative of the show they should have a defense of 1 and cost half of a Zen. pod.
Plus Breetai still gets the award for the most kick-butt bad-guy out there: calm, smart, can tear a veritech apart with his bare hands and spend extended time in hard vacuum without a suit.
<edit> Plus have previously mentioned veritech explode in his face to no apparent effect other than knocking him over stunning him.

Talizvar...a suggestion on the wing missiles. Do the mini however you want so that it looks cool. Use extra missiles and create a missile type stand on the base where you can put the missile there with a magnet. The missile on the base will indicate the missile type the VF is using. That way you can re-purpose the VF's as needed. It's something a few have been doing and posting pics of on the FB page.

Could you post a pic here on dakka for those of us not members of the Robotech Super Adventure Club on facebook?

 Mike1975 wrote:
Talizvar...a suggestion on the wing missiles. Do the mini however you want so that it looks cool. Use extra missiles and create a missile type stand on the base where you can put the missile there with a magnet. The missile on the base will indicate the missile type the VF is using. That way you can re-purpose the VF's as needed. It's something a few have been doing and posting pics of on the FB page.

But it is not on the model! (I am damaged goods forever because of 40k gaming).
This is like harkening back to the day of them being like cardboard chits for wargame maps (the horror!).
It will break the illusion of realism.
<sigh> Forget it, the bloody "swoosh"(tm) flying stand does that well enough.

The lazy side of me REALLY likes this and they look better without the darn things glued on, never mind the gaming flexibility.
I would strongly recommend this method for the beginner modeler: lining these up so they look good is hard work.
This could be a cool opportunity to model them looking like they were just launched, you know: to preserve the needed "realism".

I may continue with gluing the load-out on the wings out of pure stubbornness to then later-on tear them off in a fit of rage...
Thanks Mike.

You could model the missiles on a wire and swap them out that way - as if they've just been fired.

Give them a smoke trail and you could even hide most of the wire by making it go back to the Veritech instead of into the ground.

Here's a few pics and some goodies


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Many plan on painting the missiles for MLOPs and Bombs and Heavy different colors to distinguish them

@Talizvar - the Battloid with the bent leg can be posed "running".

Also, At $50 for the base game at CSI, that is roughly equal to the KS discount. It is a *very* fair price, if you want the stuff in the box.

Too bad that sale is over and it's back up to $75.

Get creative with the standard pose....

Looks almost like a Darth Vader head being kicked around!

 Talizvar wrote:
So would a legitimate fear be that soon what we received we would have paid more than what we could buy with the various "sales"?
I know the wave 2 items throw a proper comparison out the window but still...

Depends, Battlecry was still like 99% off retail or whatever insane number it was.
Even though I just bought a ton of boxes of destroids I still paid more than the costs in my Battlecry pledge. (Unless you did destroid add-ons that were $20 per box during the KS, in which case you paid like 50 cents more per mode, but only through the CSI sale... at normal 25% off, KS backers still got a better deal)


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 Talizvar wrote:
The real damage done to this whole thing in order to get ANY kind of market is the models are not suitable for an amateur model builder.

People keep saying this but I keep seeing the opposite, including first time model builders and painters posting on the Robotech facebook group with their models (and the community offering tips and tricks).


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Asterios wrote:
Actually right now Forar, the individual components for the system are cheaper then they cost thru the KS, the base game thru CSI $50, the base game thru KS $80, add on packs about $20 thru KS, thru CSI $16-18. only when you get into the BC and above does the value favor the backer, but only if we see wave 2 and with the lack of any info from PB regarding wave 2, there is no guarantee of that, sine we see PB has a track record of lying to their backers.

Shock and surprise, unfortunately the time-limited holiday sale was indeed time-limited and CSI is back to 25% off.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Talizvar - the Battloid with the bent leg can be posed "running".

Understood, just modifying stances so I can get at least part of the second foot on the base. The 90 degree bent leg looks strange and I see breaking the figure rather easily like this.


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 Jihadin wrote:
Get creative with the standard pose....

Ha! Veritech kicking a 40k space marine head around, I am sure there is a bit of symbolism somewhere in there...


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 judgedoug wrote:
People keep saying this but I keep seeing the opposite, including first time model builders and painters posting on the Robotech facebook group with their models (and the community offering tips and tricks).

I am glad the new people are finding sufficient support.
Finding sufficient motivation, anyone can do anything.
I guess I should clarify that the models could discourage the "casual player", but in this case, I would be happy to be wrong.

@Tal -

My "running" Battloid is very stable - the styrene and base materials glue up very well with Testors orange.

Also, I'm not at all worried that CSI had a deep discount sale (which is now over).

I do believe that these models require a fair amount of traditional plastic modeling skills. And sprue cutters / clippers.

Hey ladies and gents,

I've asked for Robotech to be added to Dakka's Player Finder, and was asked to provide evidence of usage. If anyone else would be interested to also have it added to the Player Finder, can you voice your support for it on my thread in Nuts & Bolts here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/622411.page

Thanks!

Sprue clippers are basically a requirement for these things.

I brazenly did my Shadows of Brimstone figures with nothing but a blade, and it both took longer and probably stressed more pieces than was necessary. It worked out fine and I enjoy the models (though I can see why die-hard minis folks might not be super thrilled about them), but trying that with these tiny things would've led to a LOT of damaged or outright broken pieces.

As it is, clipping, and trimming/filing, even to my minimal expectations, takes plenty long enough as it is. Trying to support such tiny pieces without ruining them would've been a giant pain in the ass.

I haven't put them to work yet, but I've got some small clamps from a local hardware store. Hopefully those will speed up assembly (not needing to hold and apply pressure to so many parts) and minimize some of the gaps (my first Battloid has a leg that's apparently open for maintenance while in combat. In that I gave up after trying to get it to set 'sealed' while working on it).

There is no need for clamps if you are using "hot" glue (e.g. Testor's orange). Just put a thin layer on the entire surface, wait a few seconds to let it soften the plastic, and then finger pressure will be enough to get a nice bond.

The models build up part by part. Build halves, then assemble from the feet up. Easy and clean.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The models build up part by part. Build halves, then assemble from the feet up. Easy and clean.

I would suggest with the destroids to build from the calves, match the feet, then do as you suggest.
I have found the curved large "toe clippers" work nice to get a close cut on curved surfaces or tight spots..
Inexpensive and cuts flush.

Anything with MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone) will weld nicely with no gaps.
Some trimming of the "squeeze-out" may be needed however.

 judgedoug wrote:
Hey ladies and gents,

I've asked for Robotech to be added to Dakka's Player Finder, and was asked to provide evidence of usage. If anyone else would be interested to also have it added to the Player Finder, can you voice your support for it on my thread in Nuts & Bolts here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/622411.page

Thanks!

Heh, dakka made a funny

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is no need for clamps if you are using "hot" glue (e.g. Testor's orange).

It's what I've used to date, and has served me pretty well so far.

 Forar wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is no need for clamps if you are using "hot" glue (e.g. Testor's orange).

It's what I've used to date, and has served me pretty well so far.

Gah!
Dude! Superglue bonds the surfaces, the other model glue actual "welds" the plastics (the two parts melt into each other).
It all works great short-term but tend to fall apart later, usually when you got around to painting them.
Just someone who has been down this road and cares enough to not wish it on others...

US Military stopped using MEK for a reason

Yeah. They have to cater to a 3rd grade education and stupid people do stupid things.

I say this as an ex-Army supply guy.

 Jihadin wrote:
US Military stopped using MEK for a reason

Perhaps they realized that using 1" tall toy soldiers with 20+ parts wasn't effective? I blame North Korea.

 warboss wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
US Military stopped using MEK for a reason

Perhaps they realized that using 1" tall toy soldiers with 20+ parts wasn't effective? I blame North Korea.

Liver damage

 Jihadin wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
US Military stopped using MEK for a reason

Perhaps they realized that using 1" tall toy soldiers with 20+ parts wasn't effective? I blame North Korea.

Liver damage

Yes, MEK is a VERY nasty solvent.
I had to clean a vacuum chamber (enclosed space) in a full bunny suit with my own air: this stuff is not nice.
I ventilate well when using the stuff, which we should be doing with any of the glues.
The super glues can permanently damage your cornea if you get any of it in the eye, many items of our hobby have some fun health risks, we just need to take appropriate care.
Our paints we sometimes choose to spray: anything with cadmium is also nasty for the lungs which GW has still refused to tell me if any of their paints have it.

Well, looks like the latest Update (the PB Weekly, not the KS Update*) doesn't even mention RRT, other than a few letters from the fanbase praising Kevin and Company.

And that might not be a big issue, except December 11th they were still working on sending the Australian orders. So two weeks later, no news that that's been resolved, meaning the 6-8 week clock on shipping (plus whatever the Aus distributor tacks on the end) appears to have yet to start.

* I think they've abandoned the KS Updates. Them forcibly (and in some places, illegally) signing people up to their newsletter is apparently an acceptable alternative.

Palladium, like the honey badger, doesn't care. In any case, I hope everyone who celebrates has a happy and joyous Christmas unlike Minmei!

Going to hazard a guess on them bumping into the International Business aspect. Customs, trade rights, etc etc etc. Taxes and Fee's to.

 Jihadin wrote:
Going to hazard a guess on them bumping into the International Business aspect. Customs, trade rights, etc etc etc. Taxes and Fee's to.

Oh, no doubt. It's too bad there wasn't a decent period of time earlier this year, when they knew all the relevant details (individual package weights and sizes, quantities ordered, etc) when those kind of details could have been hammered out. Like say, July through September (excluding two weeks for GenCon). And it's not like they couldn't have gotten relatively preliminary stuff done in the six months before that.

Sure, this stuff isn't quickly done. But it doesn't take more than a couple of hours of quotes and negotiation over a couple of weeks. Or at least it shouldn't. But it's Palladium. Where making the difficult seem easy is part of their gaming product, but making the easy seem difficult is apparently their company motto. The amount of straight up self-inflicted damage they've done to the product, and the brand, is outright astonishing.

Morgan Vening wrote:
December 11th they were still working on sending the Australian orders. So two weeks later, no news that that's been resolved, meaning the 6-8 week clock on shipping (plus whatever the Aus distributor tacks on the end) appears to have yet to start.

This isn't surprising - it's completely expected with international shipping, customs, taxes, fees, ForEx, etc.

On some other KS there's a retrospective on how things went, with a comment about how it would have been cheaper to set the international rewards on fire than to ship them. Funny stuff, and part of the reason why I don't back KS out of country.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
part of the reason why I don't back KS out of country.

Really? That's the direction you want to take this?

Because the vast majority of big KS's seem to be US based, so this basically comes across as 'feth you, got mine, woooo USA!', and surely that's not the intended message you wish to convey...

I'd also like to point out that PB has lauded the fact that they have been in business for over a third of a century. This isn't some company that just got on its feet. Unless the entire continent of Australia has written off their product lines, they knew that it would be expensive, time consuming and probably complicated, and yet still don't even seem to remotely have an answer.

If they didn't want to deal with the complexities of international delivery, they shouldn't have sold internationally. But international backer money spends just as well as anyone else's, and yet many of them get treated like second class citizens.

Want the funds, do the homework, and it's not AUS/NZ backers' fault that PB dropped the ball.

Exactly what part of it is "funny stuff"?

Joyboozer wrote:
Exactly what part of it is "funny stuff"?

Apparently, the "funny stuff" is Palladium (and other companies) not doing the most basic of due diligence regarding shipping. Or not organizing an alternate method, like shipping directly from the factory to an Australian distributor (or direct). You know, stuff that a company (as Forar indicates) has a third of a century in the industry, and frequently boasts about their "credentials", might consider.

There SHOULD be a big difference between a guy with a couple of friends working out of their garage for who this is a new and intimidating thing, and a "professional" company. Especially one that had an extra 9+ months with which to get this sorted. It's not like they didn't know how much was heading internationally, a year in advance (close of the Pledge Manager), or the weights and sizes 6 months ago.

Just seems weird that retailers and distributors can apparently get the stuff imported on time with only slightly inflated margins (Good Games are selling the core box already for about $115US) and still apparently make it worthwhile, via air-freight based on when it was declared sent to distributors (unless PB lied again about not shipping to international retailers first). Yes, PB have more to send than a single Core Box, but most of the prohibitive costs are because Palladium screwed up their timeline, and were forced to split Waves. The decision to do that SHOULD have come after a cost analysis of the increased shipping. This isn't because shipping in and of itself to Australia (and other RoW destinations) is onerous. It's because PB didn't do their homework. Again.

Unfortunately I missed the kickstarter by about a month or two. But when I heard on this thread that the core box was available on CoolStuff for 40% off, I went ahead and grabbed a box... and it just arrived today. So for the kickstarter backers who had to wait so long, and especially those who haven't received it yet... I'm really sorry.

For what it's worth, CoolStuff don't ship to where I am in the Middle East, so I had to use a carrier, and ended up paying more in postage than I did for the box itself. Oh well. Anyway, I've only just glanced at the contents of the box, so here's my first impressions:

The box is bigger than I expected.
Yikes, lot's of complex sprues! There is NO REASON for most of these pieces to be split in half!
Hmm, the quality and level of detail is actually better than I'd feared.
I see what people mean about the tiny antennae and excess of attachment points, I'm going to need to be careful here.
The box has no packing material inside, and the rule book isn't even bagged. It's disappointing, but luckily in my case the book isn't damaged.
I don't like the bases very much.
Why... are there so many bits of "non-child-friendly" advertising inside this box? I mean, "tentacle bento"? Really? And that Rifts picture is not one I would let children look at.

I just cannot understand why the models are broken down into so many pieces. There is no way I will be assembling them all and trying to actually play the game. Of course, following this thread I already knew that going in. It's a shame, but I was already resigned to the idea of putting together some Veritechs just for the models, and not playing with them.

Having said all that, when I saw how the Veritech torsos where broken down into multiple parts for no reason, I was actually very pleased. No, wait, hear me out! You see, I'd been planning to try a conversion for a custom Veritech that I've had in mind for a long time, but I didn't think it would be feasible before. Looking at the pieces now, I actually think I can pull it off! Hopefully when I have time to put something together (busy with Warmachine stuff right now) I'll post some pictures.

Overall I've been very lucky; I didn't go through the pain and grief of being a backer, but was able to get my hands on something that's good enough for me. To be honest I almost feel bad about that.

Happy for you mate, still want to slow roast Kevin over a fire.

repost -

again, any of you who are playing or plan to play, please voice your support for adding Robotech to the Dakka Player Finder by posting it here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/622411.page

 Forar wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
part of the reason why I don't back KS out of country.

Really? That's the direction you want to take this?

Because the vast majority of big KS's seem to be US based, so this basically comes across as 'feth you, got mine, woooo USA!', and surely that's not the intended message you wish to convey...

Yeah, it basically is.

The largest big KS happening to be US-based is a natural consequence of the US being the largest single market for games, so yeah, "Feth you! MURICA!!!"

Given that the US really has ZERO need for foreign money or backers, and minimal experience with any of the forex stuff (which is significantly more complex and expensive), I don't know why any non-US backer would expect to be treated with equivalent priority and ease as a domestic US backer from a US KS. You'll get your stuff, eventually, and that's that. Shoulda, woulda, coulda doesn't change what actually happened. And I don't know why you expected anything different with Palladium, given the track record with Northern Gun. The only reason I split a pledge was because Ninja Division was involved, and apparently it all went to hell after Palladium decided they were going to run the show.

For me, I have no illusions that Canadian (i.e. Heavy Gear) or European KS would do signficantly better, especially given the lower revenue points that they sit at. I have reduced confidence that they will deliver at all, given the limited track records involved. Right now, I'm in for 1 CAD into Heavy Gear, and initial impressions are that it's 1 CAD wasted, despite their claims of years of experience, etc. I'm watching Prodos Alien v Predator with certain amusement, as well.

Is JohnHwangDD American slang for someone who is [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't know why any non-US backer would expect to be treated with equivalent priority and ease as a domestic US backer from a US KS.

Because they pay the same, and actually quite a bit more? Is their money somehow not collected, or is worth less than american moneys? I mean, if a KS doesn't want or need non-american, filthy foreigner money, they can actually, you know, decide not to accept it, after all.

So I've begun the arduous process of building my UEDF forces. I started with two Valks. All three modes. The fighters were very easy. (No missiles yet). THe Guardians were also fairly straight forward, as was the Battloid. Until you started putting the arms together. I went ahead and followed the advice of those who have already started their UEDF models and took the time to make sure which arm halve went where and which shoulder went with which pose before gluing.

I think what I'm going to do with future Guardians is build both arm sets off one sprue so I can minimize how much arm hunting I'll have to do. And so on. I assumed that I'd have a few sprues of extra arms when done so why not have them all on the same sprues. Plus cut down on guessing which goes where later on in the building process.

 dalsiandon wrote:
So I've begun the arduous process of building my UEDF forces. I started with two Valks. All three modes. The fighters were very easy. (No missiles yet). THe Guardians were also fairly straight forward, as was the Battloid. Until you started putting the arms together. I went ahead and followed the advice of those who have already started their UEDF models and took the time to make sure which arm halve went where and which shoulder went with which pose before gluing.

I think what I'm going to do with future Guardians is build both arm sets off one sprue so I can minimize how much arm hunting I'll have to do. And so on. I assumed that I'd have a few sprues of extra arms when done so why not have them all on the same sprues. Plus cut down on guessing which goes where later on in the building process.

I did not glue my arms on my Valk in Guardian mode. Enough play in the arm peg to glue hands unto the weapon itself after finger pluking the weapon into place..

 Albertorius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't know why any non-US backer would expect to be treated with equivalent priority and ease as a domestic US backer from a US KS.

Because they pay the same, and actually quite a bit more? Is their money somehow not collected, or is worth less than american moneys? I mean, if a KS doesn't want or need non-american, filthy foreigner money, they can actually, you know, decide not to accept it, after all.

I'd love to see a KS that says outright on its KS front page "We are going to treat foreign backers substantially worse than US backers" just because so many people think that foreign backers kind of deserve the treatment for daring to live in other countries.

This line of argument about if non-US people should pay more is better suited for a general KS thread, please take it to an existing thread about KS shipping and pledging if there is one, and if there isn't and you think there is good conversation to be had on it then start one. But stop talking about it here.

Kevin will be known as the grinch who stole Christmas.lol

I'm not to happy about how they took over the project right after the campaign ended. Just because PB was to dumb to understand the miniatures rules written by ND they rewrote it and didn't inform us. This guy who runs PB just continues to flounder this project and is purposely ignoring the backers.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Kevin will be known as the grinch who stole Christmas.lol

I'm not to happy about how they took over the project right after the campaign ended. Just because PB was to dumb to understand the miniatures rules written by ND they rewrote it and didn't inform us. This guy who runs PB just continues to flounder this project and is purposely ignoring the backers.

When did that happen? Does anyone have concrete proof? From the credits in the rulebook, it's all still credited to non-PB people.

We have at least one playtester active on this forum, was there some complete rewrite that took place at the eleventh hour, Mike? Seems like it's pretty much the game that Ninja Division wrote.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Kevin will be known as the grinch who stole Christmas.lol

I'm not to happy about how they took over the project right after the campaign ended. Just because PB was to dumb to understand the miniatures rules written by ND they rewrote it and didn't inform us. This guy who runs PB just continues to flounder this project and is purposely ignoring the backers.

I've followed it since I bought in for a showdown and I really don't recall seeing that


And in fact here are the preview rules from the kickstarter home page. The core seems pretty much on target
http://damommasboyz.com/sodapop/rtkick/robotech-rpg-tactics-rules-preview-v2.pdf

 judgedoug wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Kevin will be known as the grinch who stole Christmas.lol

I'm not to happy about how they took over the project right after the campaign ended. Just because PB was to dumb to understand the miniatures rules written by ND they rewrote it and didn't inform us. This guy who runs PB just continues to flounder this project and is purposely ignoring the backers.

When did that happen? Does anyone have concrete proof? From the credits in the rulebook, it's all still credited to non-PB people.

We have at least one playtester active on this forum, was there some complete rewrite that took place at the eleventh hour, Mike? Seems like it's pretty much the game that Ninja Division wrote.

It was from the mouth of the Siembiedessiah IIRC in one of his forum murmurs or weekly updates. He mentioned about 6 months post ks that they were redoing significant portions of the rules to get them to their liking. I'm not sure if they actually quoted an actual percentage but roughly half sounds right.

Core Box $49.99 and booster boxes 50% off again from Cool Stuff Inc.

 Dark Severance wrote:
Core Box $49.99 and booster boxes 50% off again from Cool Stuff Inc.

the add on boxes are 51% off while the box game is 50% off.


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 judgedoug wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Kevin will be known as the grinch who stole Christmas.lol

I'm not to happy about how they took over the project right after the campaign ended. Just because PB was to dumb to understand the miniatures rules written by ND they rewrote it and didn't inform us. This guy who runs PB just continues to flounder this project and is purposely ignoring the backers.

When did that happen? Does anyone have concrete proof? From the credits in the rulebook, it's all still credited to non-PB people.

We have at least one playtester active on this forum, was there some complete rewrite that took place at the eleventh hour, Mike? Seems like it's pretty much the game that Ninja Division wrote.

even ND said they did the initial rules, after that it was all PB.

Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

Is that your own experience/knowledge or are you reposting that? If the latter, link please?

I wonder if the seperation was also about a second design company being involved?

Asterios wrote:
the add on boxes are 51% off while the box game is 50% off.

Rick, nobody gives a gak about the 1%. It's accurate enough for prime time.

Some are half off, presumably the 1% is a rounding error reflecting CSI's desire to have the boxes be $15.99, because reasons, and by reasons I mean retail.

Now, if we want to point out actual noteworthy differences from the baseline, look at the other packs.

The VT pack continues to be underpriced compared to the others, despite having the same MSRP (CSI has been doing this for ages), meaning they're currently at ~60% off (59% off if we want to be anal retentive, because we know that 1% is soooo important), as are the Defender/Tomahawk pack (actually 58%, again, importance of accuracy even in casual discussion OMG!), which I find a little strange, as I'd have thought those would be in fairly high demand with all the Battletech players gushing about getting their hands on unseen. Oh, and while the Battlepods are around 50% off (!), the Command Pack and Artillery Pack are both around 60% off as well (within a reasonable margin of error).

So rather than fuss over 1-2% exacting accuracy, how about we instead look at things that are actually noteworthy.

Weren't they originally selling for 25-40% off, and 50% was seen as a huge thing that few people actually cared about? Dropping to 60% on some stuff does seem like it could be an issue. Keep in mind that the 1/2 off sale just ended a day or two ago. Having an even better sale mere days later can be a customer service nightmare.

As for the rules, I too am interested in the source. WRRD himself said last week

There was even a complete rewrite early in the process.

, but without more detail, that could mean a PB rewrite of ND's work, or ND's rewrite of PB's initial venture. Though with how much of the RPG remains, it seems more likely that it'd be the former, unless ND were told up front that as much RPG'ism had to be retained.

What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

What I believe/think....
5. ND had rules and made changes even post KS. Changes were small for the most part. (KS rules vs actual support this)
6. PB had little idea of mini games and could not be trusted to manage the rules even IF they did have control.
7. ND from what I understand had their wrists slapped for even releasing that much during the KS by HG and were scared to even allow PB any control of the rules.
8. Any additional changes had to wait till the end when ND had to pass PB the goods so that they could go through final approval and then to print.
9. Because of the short timeline some things were not fixed but need to be clarified as time goes by. Errata is needed.

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

I underlined an assumption. I've seen people talk about this for a long time (pre-KS) but it's all just been rumor.
(that any miniature release must be an extension of the RPG rules, as you've asserted)

 Mike1975 wrote:

9. Because of the short timeline some things were not fixed but need to be clarified as time goes by. Errata is needed.

It was a year late in releasing any product (and we're still waiting on 1/2 to 2/3 depending on how you count)... the timeline had ample wiggle/stretch/darwinian evolution room with how late the minis side ultimately made things to clarify things. Nothing I submitted for clarification during those many cold and empty months was addressed. YMMV.

Yeah - calling this a "short timeline" is beyond a reasonable stretch.

You even pointed out (iirc) issues that you saw early in your playtesting that weren't corrected, right?

My guess is from Kevin's pov everything was perfect and he must have figured it'll be like his RPG rules where your expected to house rule every damn thing.

Mike

If PB wasn't in control of the rules does that mean HG was?

Also, I'm up to 10 figures built, hopefully to be at 15 as of tonight, assuming I'm willing to subject myself to another Battloid/Guardian.

At that point I'll be at a 2/6 split on VT's to Pods, and might glance at some Destroids and a Command sprue set to get some variety going.

Though that's mostly just getting ahead of the game, as I still have no idea when I'll actually be playing it. Not that this is a terribly pressing complaint, more a critique on how little enthusiasm my two compatriots seem to have to get some games going.

But, y'know, gotta get ready for that big launch event they're working out with the MA's.

>.>

If/when it happens something tells me it'll be anticlimactic. Did any of you guys see this from a ND playtester? Doesn't give me confidence in wave two.

"@Khyron... As John and the other employees at Ninja Division have said on their forums and Facebook. Ninja Division was only hired on for the intial rules set up and miniature "model" design. After they submitted these to PB, PB did what ever they wanted with it. They have no knowledge or say so on the decisions PB made after that. Example: Current rules are thanks to Carmen of PB and the decision to split the models in half were PB's. And lastly, choosing to use a different Chinese factory than the one Ninja Division uses was all PB's choice as well. Ninja Division pretty much did what they were paid to do then PB decided to go their own direction with it. Using Ninja Division to do all the leg work, then turned it around to make it into their own Frankenstien abomination RPG version of it. Because the game is nothing like they intionally submitted they don't want to even support it with their line of products. Hence why there is no support , mention, forum or ninja volunteer program for the game through ND. And why it is now up to PB's Megaverse (TM) ambasador program to promote the game. Because, Ninja Divisions name is still attached to the games' models they still post pics of ONLY the models. I have not seen a single pic of the whole game other than the models on Ninja Divisions websites. Because, they have no say so on what PB decided to do with the models after they were submitted they have no idea on the status of wave 2 either. Best bet is to keep houding the PB forums about a status update on wave 2 and hope that NMI doesn't lock it immediatly after."

So the game is dead basically in about two years at most?

games already dead.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

I underlined an assumption. I've seen people talk about this for a long time (pre-KS) but it's all just been rumor.
(that any miniature release must be an extension of the RPG rules, as you've asserted)

Having actually worked and spoken with PB, it is not an assumption.

Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - calling this a "short timeline" is beyond a reasonable stretch.

You even pointed out (iirc) issues that you saw early in your playtesting that weren't corrected, right?

Again, the time from when PB actually had the actual files from ND and to when things went to print WAS indeed short. Many of the changes I had given them that were obvious were delayed for this same reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

That's my biggest concern....PB treating this like a RPG will kill the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

Coming from what knowledge? ND released stuff during the KS and the actual rules are close so I'd be really interested in where this idea comes from.....

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

I underlined an assumption. I've seen people talk about this for a long time (pre-KS) but it's all just been rumor.
(that any miniature release must be an extension of the RPG rules, as you've asserted)

Having actually worked and spoken with PB, it is not an assumption.

Actually, unless you've personally seen the contract that spelled this out, it is an assumption. As was the thing that was quoted about what the ND playtesters said.

Because else, you're asking people to take as fact, something that was told to you. Your belief in the veracity of what you were told is irrelevant. I don't doubt you believe you were told this, and I don't doubt what you were told. But having not heard it from the source myself, it's an assumption that it's fact. And if it's from the usual suspects (Kevin, Jeff or Wayne), based on prior performance, I'd need confirmation from an independent source before I believed anything they said. Their propensity for not being completely honest, is easily verified.

Like I said, I take the claims from the two claiming to be ND playtesters (one here, one on the KS) with similar doubts as it's not coming from the source, but again, anything spoken by KevCo is taken by me with a little more skepticism because of past false and/or misleading statements.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's good information to have. Every little bit helps inform the bigger picture. But don't kid yourself that it's fact. Unless I assumed wrong, and you have seen the contract, the specific wording that stated the licensing limitation, and saw evidence that it was properly signed by both parties. Then I retract almost all of the above.

I hope this game isn't dead, but if it dies at least I have my son to play with. For me that was the whole point. So not a big lose to me. Besides he's never seen robotech only the original macross story and other macross shows. So he hasn't been contaminated by the BS from HG that is RT. This game dying isn't a big deal. Although I have a feeling that it'll be the fans that keep this alive above anything PB does, only because RT/macross fans will stay in touch thanks to FB and other net forums were we can congregate. Kinda how PB RPG fans keep PB afloat despite Kevin the bungler.

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - calling this a "short timeline" is beyond a reasonable stretch.

You even pointed out (iirc) issues that you saw early in your playtesting that weren't corrected, right?

Again, the time from when PB actually had the actual files from ND and to when things went to print WAS indeed short. Many of the changes I had given them that were obvious were delayed for this same reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

That's my biggest concern....PB treating this like a RPG will kill the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

Coming from what knowledge? ND released stuff during the KS and the actual rules are close so I'd be really interested in where this idea comes from.....

and yet it was ND that said they were only hired to design the initial minis and the initial rules, which indicates they had nothing to do with the current rules, all we have that they did is your word, and as you like pointing out how you want proof from others, I want to see your proof, all you have given us is talk, yet no evidence and yet the evidence of what I said what ND said is visible on their facebook page. where is your proof, or is it something big Kev told you, and we know how he doesn't lie.

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

What I believe/think....
5. ND had rules and made changes even post KS. Changes were small for the most part. (KS rules vs actual support this)
6. PB had little idea of mini games and could not be trusted to manage the rules even IF they did have control.
7. ND from what I understand had their wrists slapped for even releasing that much during the KS by HG and were scared to even allow PB any control of the rules.
8. Any additional changes had to wait till the end when ND had to pass PB the goods so that they could go through final approval and then to print.
9. Because of the short timeline some things were not fixed but need to be clarified as time goes by. Errata is needed.

A minor clarification.

Tom had his own set of rules, I had my own set of rules which were very different from Tom's stuff and I also had actual miniatures. Both of us were working on respective projects independently aproximately at the same time. Tom wanted to do his stuff in 1/100 scale at the time, and wanted to combine efforts as he thought it'd be better to present the project as a single effort. Which is not something I really agreed to, nor wanted. IMO he really tried to blur the lines between what we were working on and re-posted a lot of my pictures and items from my facebook page on his own site without my permission.

Whenever I spoke with Palladium it was strictly about the miniatures angle, while I was working with a set of house rules for my personal use my primary interest was always the miniatures as I had no expectations that they would want to use any system submitted to them. I was also pretty annoyed that Tom kept insisting that we were working together, we both wanted to see a game made however we had very different ideas as to the approach. He wanted large scale 1/100 stuff as did PB (at the time) and I had to argue very hard to get them to listen to the logic behind producing it in 1/285th scale. I'd been dead set on that scale since the beginning as I knew that for production purposes it was the only serious option.

I felt Tom was purposefully trying to blur the line between our two separate efforts and I asked him to remove my pictures from his fan website. I was fine with him pursuing a robotech game under his own efforts but I did a lot of work and put down money to try and get the prototypes done and it felt like he was trying to ride my coat tails considering he didn't pitch in on those at all. Over the years there's been lots of people who have pitched game ideas to HG. I certainly wasn't the first to suggest a game, however what I did that was unique was to bring them actual professional looking models to illustrate what was possible which is an entirely different approach that nobody else had tried. With those prototypes and the Facebook page I organized I got a tangible groundswell going that was far different than previous fan efforts.

As much as I respect Tom's interest and passion towards getting Robotech made I did not consider him a partner and he was constantly trying to wedge himself into the discussion process when there was no grounds to. He had no part in creating my prototype models or the FB page, nor did he have any hand in how I was promoting things. He had his own page which as far as I can tell was followed by a half dozen people where there was nearly 2,000 people active on the FB page I'd set up for the miniatures. His efforts had no impact on what I was doing and in some ways were being very counter productive.



As for what happened after Palladium rejected my request to work with them I don't know for sure, but reading the initial KS promotions I was under the impressions that Alessio Cavatore was brought on by Ninja Division to do the rules. Assuming the purpose of bringing on a "big name" former GW writer was to create some hype about the game during the kickstarter stage. I'm not sure who is listed in the final writers credits, but if it's Carmen then I'd assume he either modified/revised Alessio's work, or they tossed out the earlier work and PB went with whatever Carmen came up with. I only saw what they were advertising at the launch of the KS and I don't have the game or rulesbook so I really have no clue who wrote what in regard to the final version.

Saying the game is dead is a pretty big assumption and not one I'm willing to take (despite the local interest by me being nil). The reality is that we can't really judge the popularity until at least 6 months pass (along with another Gencon) and in all likelihood wave 2 arrives probably this time next year.

 warboss wrote:
Saying the game is dead is a pretty big assumption and not one I'm willing to take (despite the local interest by me being nil). The reality is that we can't really judge the popularity until at least 6 months pass (along with another Gencon) and in all likelihood wave 2 arrives probably this time next year.

Agreed. At least six months at retail, if anything gets released before Wave 2 (Oh noes, Kevin would never do that! He promised!), you can probably add another six months. But that also doesn't mean there aren't markers.

The CSI discount isn't proof. Hell, it's barely an assumption (as to why it's heavily discounted). There are many pro and con reasons why they're doing it. Maybe they got a great sweetheart deal from PB and are making decent profit even at that steep a discount. Maybe they're trying to gin up interest with "introductory rates". Or maybe they overstocked/overordered, and are trying to get the surplus down quickly. Or maybe they're done. All we do know is that the CSI prices deflate the secondary market, as a certain purple Zergling will point out.

Probably a significant marker (but again, not definitive proof) will be the number of entrants into official games at GenCon. Another will be if the GenCon marketers are heavily discounting it.

The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Palladium-ism. They have been doing a lot to bungle things bad luck, inexperience, delays, even if it's not intentional mishandling it has been creating a lot of burned bridges with people that if things were done right would have stayed on as loyal customers. In addition to a lost revenue source it turns into a pool of toxicity which will bad mouth the game to potential new players amplifying the reach.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

I underlined an assumption. I've seen people talk about this for a long time (pre-KS) but it's all just been rumor.
(that any miniature release must be an extension of the RPG rules, as you've asserted)

Having actually worked and spoken with PB, it is not an assumption.

Actually, unless you've personally seen the contract that spelled this out, it is an assumption. As was the thing that was quoted about what the ND playtesters said.

Because else, you're asking people to take as fact, something that was told to you. Your belief in the veracity of what you were told is irrelevant. I don't doubt you believe you were told this, and I don't doubt what you were told. But having not heard it from the source myself, it's an assumption that it's fact. And if it's from the usual suspects (Kevin, Jeff or Wayne), based on prior performance, I'd need confirmation from an independent source before I believed anything they said. Their propensity for not being completely honest, is easily verified.

Like I said, I take the claims from the two claiming to be ND playtesters (one here, one on the KS) with similar doubts as it's not coming from the source, but again, anything spoken by KevCo is taken by me with a little more skepticism because of past false and/or misleading statements.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's good information to have. Every little bit helps inform the bigger picture. But don't kid yourself that it's fact. Unless I assumed wrong, and you have seen the contract, the specific wording that stated the licensing limitation, and saw evidence that it was properly signed by both parties. Then I retract almost all of the above.

I can understand and even appreciate why people would be skeptical. I would also hold the same skepticism with this post by about the rules changing and all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - calling this a "short timeline" is beyond a reasonable stretch.

You even pointed out (iirc) issues that you saw early in your playtesting that weren't corrected, right?

Again, the time from when PB actually had the actual files from ND and to when things went to print WAS indeed short. Many of the changes I had given them that were obvious were delayed for this same reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

That's my biggest concern....PB treating this like a RPG will kill the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

Coming from what knowledge? ND released stuff during the KS and the actual rules are close so I'd be really interested in where this idea comes from.....

and yet it was ND that said they were only hired to design the initial minis and the initial rules, which indicates they had nothing to do with the current rules, all we have that they did is your word, and as you like pointing out how you want proof from others, I want to see your proof, all you have given us is talk, yet no evidence and yet the evidence of what I said what ND said is visible on their facebook page. where is your proof, or is it something big Kev told you, and we know how he doesn't lie.

As usual you pull out the BS. Playtesting and having something in hand that you can change are not the same thing and you well know it. Also the KS alpha release rules when compared to the final is ample evidence that any PB changes made were no drastic UNLESS you assume ND's Alpha Release was done under duress and was not even close to their rules. We know that is simply not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Palladium-ism. They have been doing a lot to bungle things bad luck, inexperience, delays, even if it's not intentional mishandling it has been creating a lot of burned bridges with people that if things were done right would have stayed on as loyal customers. In addition to a lost revenue source it turns into a pool of toxicity which will bad mouth the game to potential new players amplifying the reach.

^^ This. PB's biggest challenge it in essence....itself. They need to learn to get behind the ball.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

I underlined an assumption. I've seen people talk about this for a long time (pre-KS) but it's all just been rumor.
(that any miniature release must be an extension of the RPG rules, as you've asserted)

Having actually worked and spoken with PB, it is not an assumption.

Actually, unless you've personally seen the contract that spelled this out, it is an assumption. As was the thing that was quoted about what the ND playtesters said.

Because else, you're asking people to take as fact, something that was told to you. Your belief in the veracity of what you were told is irrelevant. I don't doubt you believe you were told this, and I don't doubt what you were told. But having not heard it from the source myself, it's an assumption that it's fact. And if it's from the usual suspects (Kevin, Jeff or Wayne), based on prior performance, I'd need confirmation from an independent source before I believed anything they said. Their propensity for not being completely honest, is easily verified.

Like I said, I take the claims from the two claiming to be ND playtesters (one here, one on the KS) with similar doubts as it's not coming from the source, but again, anything spoken by KevCo is taken by me with a little more skepticism because of past false and/or misleading statements.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's good information to have. Every little bit helps inform the bigger picture. But don't kid yourself that it's fact. Unless I assumed wrong, and you have seen the contract, the specific wording that stated the licensing limitation, and saw evidence that it was properly signed by both parties. Then I retract almost all of the above.

I can understand and even appreciate why people would be skeptical. I would also hold the same skepticism with this post by about the rules changing and all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - calling this a "short timeline" is beyond a reasonable stretch.

You even pointed out (iirc) issues that you saw early in your playtesting that weren't corrected, right?

Again, the time from when PB actually had the actual files from ND and to when things went to print WAS indeed short. Many of the changes I had given them that were obvious were delayed for this same reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

That's my biggest concern....PB treating this like a RPG will kill the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

Coming from what knowledge? ND released stuff during the KS and the actual rules are close so I'd be really interested in where this idea comes from.....

and yet it was ND that said they were only hired to design the initial minis and the initial rules, which indicates they had nothing to do with the current rules, all we have that they did is your word, and as you like pointing out how you want proof from others, I want to see your proof, all you have given us is talk, yet no evidence and yet the evidence of what I said what ND said is visible on their facebook page. where is your proof, or is it something big Kev told you, and we know how he doesn't lie.

As usual you pull out the BS. Playtesting and having something in hand that you can change are not the same thing and you well know it. Also the KS alpha release rules when compared to the final is ample evidence that any PB changes made were no drastic UNLESS you assume ND's Alpha Release was done under duress and was not even close to their rules. We know that is simply not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Palladium-ism. They have been doing a lot to bungle things bad luck, inexperience, delays, even if it's not intentional mishandling it has been creating a lot of burned bridges with people that if things were done right would have stayed on as loyal customers. In addition to a lost revenue source it turns into a pool of toxicity which will bad mouth the game to potential new players amplifying the reach.

^^ This. PB's biggest challenge it in essence....itself. They need to learn to get behind the ball.

And you Assume that the KS alpha rules release were ND's design ? my statement is that ND claimed they were responsible for the initial rules design, not saying when those rules were done or if they were even play tested, that is your assumption, not mine.

as it goes in my mind this game is already dead, and the only one to blame is PB, you can keep hoping the game grows, but it will not, its already gasping for breath, hell its several months since people have gotten the game and the bulk of people are still assembling the game if they are even bothering assembling it at all.

this is what went wrong and destroyed this game:

1: Game Mechanics is more problematic for the average gamer, the average gamer does not want to spend weeks or so, on a new game just to play it. they want a game they can pretty much take out of the box and play, look at all the games that are doing good, and you will see either their starter games or their games overall are not time consuming like this game is.

2: PB has garnered more ill will towards this game then any positive reinforcement, due to PB's lies and general untrustworthy actions, more and more people are not supporting this game, and are downright now going out of their way to speak ill of the game and company.

3: PB has not supported this game to date, nor do they even plan to support it, PB is running this game like an RPG game and that there will kill it, RPG games are not miniature games, they are 2 different beasts and if you treat a miniature game like an RPG game you will kill it.

4: Kevin is in charge "Nuff Said"

Asterios wrote:


And you Assume that the KS alpha rules release were ND's design ? my statement is that ND claimed they were responsible for the initial rules design, not saying when those rules were done or if they were even play tested, that is your assumption, not mine.

as it goes in my mind this game is already dead, and the only one to blame is PB, you can keep hoping the game grows, but it will not, its already gasping for breath, hell its several months since people have gotten the game and the bulk of people are still assembling the game if they are even bothering assembling it at all.

this is what went wrong and destroyed this game:

1: Game Mechanics is more problematic for the average gamer, the average gamer does not want to spend weeks or so, on a new game just to play it. they want a game they can pretty much take out of the box and play, look at all the games that are doing good, and you will see either their starter games or their games overall are not time consuming like this game is.

2: PB has garnered more ill will towards this game then any positive reinforcement, due to PB's lies and general untrustworthy actions, more and more people are not supporting this game, and are downright now going out of their way to speak ill of the game and company.

3: PB has not supported this game to date, nor do they even plan to support it, PB is running this game like an RPG game and that there will kill it, RPG games are not miniature games, they are 2 different beasts and if you treat a miniature game like an RPG game you will kill it.

4: Kevin is in charge "Nuff Said"

So let's follow your logic here. The rules released during the KS were already not ND's and they were forced to release them?
1. ND was happy and still very supportive of the game at that time and for a while after.
2. I have from ND that they got into a bit from HG for releasing that much.

#1 Game mechanics difficult? I think you forgot to read the rulebook.

#2 Partially agree, through KS's poor way of handling things and the team's general lack of experience.

#3 An assumption on your part. You like to point out assumptions right? We do know they are working on an errata. Way too slowly for my taste.

#4 See #2

Either I cannot see it or maybe I am not comprehending it. Rules for the table top blow crap up are at the beginning of the rule books and the conversion to RPG is in back of the book Separate from each other. So what's the connection I am missing?

 Mike1975 wrote:
We do know they are working on an errata. Way too slowly for my taste.

To touch on this directly, you've said that FAQ/Errata suggestions were made, what, months ago? An entire quarter? Half a year? Longer?

How long can we just take at face value that it's 'totally coming' in a way other than how NG1/2 were 'totally coming' for years?

And a bunch of the questions compiling aren't even super complicated. Can a Battloid fire a GU-11 up to 3 times in a turn? That's a yes or no answer (though a little extra context would be nice). Are 'named' characters Unique?' Again, yes or no. Start with easy things, and expand to apply to more complicated issues, and attend to things that might've been overlooked during development.

I think they need to make a page (not a forum post, an actual page) on their site and stick the answers to such things there.

It's not rocket surgery. Put up the page, start with some easy/obvious ones, update every so often (weekly to start, monthly as things settle into equilibrium), game = supported. (if in a very basic fashion)

Sure, there'll be questions that remain outstanding longer than some would like, or answers that either aren't 'fluffy' enough or don't reflect the 'crunch' as some players might prefer, but that's creating a miniatures game. And frankly they need to get comfortable with this, because right now there are only half a dozen or so figures per side of the main factions (plus the oft overlooked Malcontents). I think we can all agree that dumping the entirety of wave two onto the backers (yes, yes, I'm a starry eyed dreamer who is tongue-in-cheek claiming that we might actually have that happen) is going to add an order of magnitude more complexity to the game, and thus require even more support.

Yes, they're a "small business", but they undertook this project, and need to follow up and support it properly if they want it to thrive. The playerbase isn't going to accept "omg we're soooo busy" for months on end, eventually they either need to expand to meet those needs, or further damage is going to be done.

Note: I'm not expecting you personally to have answers; this is mostly rhetorical, noting that they really need to get their gak together, and can't just leave it on its own.

18 Models assembled. 2ea destroids and 3ea VFs bonus Battloid and some pods.Looking to finnish the first core box (of 4) of UEDF forces and get to painting.

Played 2 intro games. Lot's of fun! Really easy to pick up for the most part. Sorting out Leap plus close formation and all that is harder on the Zent player the Earth Forces.

The errata/FAQ is desperately needed. which is really too bad.

Interesting behind the scenes stuff. 1/100 wow. That's way too big to do more than 2 or 3 mechs a side.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Asterios wrote:


And you Assume that the KS alpha rules release were ND's design ? my statement is that ND claimed they were responsible for the initial rules design, not saying when those rules were done or if they were even play tested, that is your assumption, not mine.

as it goes in my mind this game is already dead, and the only one to blame is PB, you can keep hoping the game grows, but it will not, its already gasping for breath, hell its several months since people have gotten the game and the bulk of people are still assembling the game if they are even bothering assembling it at all.

this is what went wrong and destroyed this game:

1: Game Mechanics is more problematic for the average gamer, the average gamer does not want to spend weeks or so, on a new game just to play it. they want a game they can pretty much take out of the box and play, look at all the games that are doing good, and you will see either their starter games or their games overall are not time consuming like this game is.

2: PB has garnered more ill will towards this game then any positive reinforcement, due to PB's lies and general untrustworthy actions, more and more people are not supporting this game, and are downright now going out of their way to speak ill of the game and company.

3: PB has not supported this game to date, nor do they even plan to support it, PB is running this game like an RPG game and that there will kill it, RPG games are not miniature games, they are 2 different beasts and if you treat a miniature game like an RPG game you will kill it.

4: Kevin is in charge "Nuff Said"

So let's follow your logic here. The rules released during the KS were already not ND's and they were forced to release them?
1. ND was happy and still very supportive of the game at that time and for a while after.
2. I have from ND that they got into a bit from HG for releasing that much.

#1 Game mechanics difficult? I think you forgot to read the rulebook.

#2 Partially agree, through KS's poor way of handling things and the team's general lack of experience.

#3 An assumption on your part. You like to point out assumptions right? We do know they are working on an errata. Way too slowly for my taste.

#4 See #2

1: when I said mechanics I meant the whole process of actually building the game to play, gonna be awhile before a player needs to worry about the rules.

3: a pretty good assumption when I got not one MA but 2 or more who have stated they will play the game as an RPG and not a miniatures game, and i'm not talking about them not playing it in the miniatures gaming area but playing the actual RPG game using the miniatures.

furthermore PB says a lot, doesn't mean they are going to do it, so as far as errata goes wouldn't hold your breath on that.

Asterios wrote:
[
furthermore PB says a lot, doesn't mean they are going to do it, so as far as errata goes wouldn't hold your breath on that.

If minutes of holding your breath translated to months of waiting for the errata since the first copy was mailed out, most people reading this thread would have died already. I don't doubt they're working on it but they're likely working on it at best as efficiently as they were for the Northern Gun 1 & 2 crowdfunded RPG books that came out 1 year and 2 years late respectively. There is no immediate direct profit in the errata so it likely is prioritized just below cleaning the bathroom in the warehouse after Texas Chili Tuesdays. Mike submitted questions many months ago (summer or earlier?) and they still haven't managed to officially and openly answer a single question via a freely available online document. I prefer that method to asking mike on dakka who emailed it to kevin after I posted it on the megaversal forums before NMI locked my thread with a warning which got Red Duke to post a half answer on the Kickstarter comments that I never noticed.

Yeah. Well just hoping things pick up after the holidays. I'm still believing in robust support from PB in the new year. Surely it's easier to put up a FAQ than ship to ROW!

That's just hurtful Lurker

I'd appreciate if people would stop re-posting my comments on the KS. I'll gladly back up anything I've said but because I did not back the project I cannot comment on there and I'd prefer to leave my comments on an open forum where I can participate. Thanks.

 Desert Lurker wrote:
Yeah. Well just hoping things pick up after the holidays. I'm still believing in robust support from PB in the new year. Surely it's easier to put up a FAQ than ship to ROW!

For some reason everything is hard for PB. It took a long time like years for an FAQ or guide on their RPG rules.

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Actually, 3 - there is malcontents.

But X-Wing has done fine with only two factions. X-Wing is only now adding a 3rd ("Scum").

Hell, Battletech only had one faction - even though it had the five successor states, no one in our group and the wargaming club I went to bothered with declaring their mechs were for any faction - until the Clans came along. You could field ANY mech in any "faction" there weren't any rules to say this or that mech belonged to any one group, nor were there any game rules for faction abilities.

So I've started skimming the rules. Am I reading this right? A standard VF-1A in Guardian mode can move 40 inches in a single turn and then fire all it's weapons? If that's the case, then that's pretty insane. I mean, that's pretty much a whole table width! Coming from Warmachine, I just don't get that.

What's more, if I'm right, in Fighter mode it can "only" move 36 inches, and only in a straight line? So it's faster in Guardian mode than in Fighter mode as well as being more manoeuvrable? And fire more weapons to boot? That makes even less sense to me.

 Stormonu wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Actually, 3 - there is malcontents.

But X-Wing has done fine with only two factions. X-Wing is only now adding a 3rd ("Scum").

Hell, Battletech only had one faction - even though it had the five successor states, no one in our group and the wargaming club I went to bothered with declaring their mechs were for any faction - until the Clans came along. You could field ANY mech in any "faction" there weren't any rules to say this or that mech belonged to any one group, nor were there any game rules for faction abilities.

X-Wing is not a mass miniatures game, it is like wings of glory meant to be a handful of models at most usually.

Battletech had only one faction ? guess you don't count the "Houses" Mercs or Comstar forces? then we got the "Clans" so saying battletech only has 1 faction is just wrong. and unlike Battletech which gets upgraded and such, doubt we are going to see anything new from Palladium on Robotech, i'm still hoping wave 2 comes out so I don't lose any money.

Also you cannot field any type of Malcontent force till wave 2 is released.

Asterios wrote:

Also you cannot field any type of Malcontent force till wave 2 is released.

Uh... what? I can field 4 different Malcontent squadrons right out of wave one.

Christmas Gift

 Stormonu wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Actually, 3 - there is malcontents.

But X-Wing has done fine with only two factions. X-Wing is only now adding a 3rd ("Scum").

Hell, Battletech only had one faction - even though it had the five successor states, no one in our group and the wargaming club I went to bothered with declaring their mechs were for any faction - until the Clans came along. You could field ANY mech in any "faction" there weren't any rules to say this or that mech belonged to any one group, nor were there any game rules for faction abilities.

Initially Battletech had one technology base, but multiple factions. 20 years ago they added multiple tech bases and increased the factions significantly. Also as much as I like battletech it's not all that hot of a game to hold up as an example of an industry leader.

A two player game with faction based strategies does tend to get stale quickly, for example I love spacehulk but the terminators only ever play like terminators and shoot everything while the genestealers attempt to overwhelm with bodies and horde tactics. If you've played it once it's not really any different on the 100th time.

Each story arch for Robotech is largely the same, humans vs an alien horde enemy. Given that they want to closely mirror the elements of the cartoon I'd imagine that even with adding Malcontents into the mix the Malcontents are still using Zentraedi units and Zentraedi horde tactics. So you get to fight RDF forces vs Zentraedi, or Zentraedi in a different color.


Another potential pitfall is the limitations of the Robotech license, once they've dropped their load of models for the arc there's no further expansion to be had. You can do the later arcs but Robotech has never evolved as an independent property beyond what they culled directly from the animation. Other games that are created of their own IP can create new units whole cloth and add to the setting at the whim of the owning company. Robotech has a much smaller pool to draw from and that places a limit on where they can expand to, unless they make a very significant change in how they've been handling the property. Unlike battletech, the Robotech IP really hasn't evolved or expanded in the 30+ years it's been around, Leading game companies like GW and Privateer Press are constantly adding new units/characters/things to their lines as they can create as much new material as they want.

There's certainly enough material to give the game a good run in the short term, but it won't turn into an industry giant like other IPs that are free to expand in their own setting.

So the general consensus is that the final rules are incredibly close to what Ninja Divison designed because,

a) the Kickstarter playtest rules are very close to the final rules, and
b) the "RPG" stuff added by PB is just a small section at the back of the rulebook

whereas the current conspiracy theory is that

a) PB entirely threw out all the work ND did for a game BEFORE the KS,
b) released their own playtest rules during the KS, and
c) still credited ND for the rules design in the rulebook for no particularly good reason other than to make a few people on a forum invent conspiracy theories

From what I gather, PB is a blind idiot giant fumbling around smashing into things and incapable of doing anything at all while simultaneously being an evil mustache twirling mastermind completely redesigning rulesets and weighting forums users posts to send their KS packages later than others based on an evil algorithm

Gotcha.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Christmas Gift

Is this 98% officially fan made? Or a hint of things to come? The Robotech marines book was supposed to come out June 2013 to January 2014 (when I stopped paying attention to the ever sliding release date and to my knowledge still hasn't come out). Is the rotary energy cannon a thing for veritechs with the UEEF marines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 paulson games wrote:

Each story arch for Robotech is largely the same, humans vs an alien horde enemy. Given that they want to closely mirror the elements of the cartoon I'd imagine that even with adding Malcontents into the mix the Malcontents are still using Zentraedi units and Zentraedi horde tactics. So you get to fight RDF forces vs Zentraedi, or Zentraedi in a different color.


Another potential pitfall is the limitations of the Robotech license, once they've dropped their load of models for the arc there's no further expansion to be had. You can do the later arcs but Robotech has never evolved as an independent property beyond what they culled directly from the animation. Other games that are created of their own IP can create new units whole cloth and add to the setting at the whim of the owning company. Robotech has a much smaller pool to draw from and that places a limit on where they can expand to, unless they make a very significant change in how they've been handling the property. Unlike battletech, the Robotech IP really hasn't evolved or expanded in the 30+ years it's been around, Leading game companies like GW and Privateer Press are constantly adding new units/characters/things to their lines as they can create as much new material as they want.

There's certainly enough material to give the game a good run in the short term, but it won't turn into an industry giant like other IPs that are free to expand in their own setting.

While I agree that the potential for a licensed and now strictly regulated IP is less than something completely original, there is room for more than just 2 factions in each era if they just bring in the stuff that they previously disavowed. If the "experimental" mecha are ok, then why not the ZSB prototypes, super alphas, or the sentinels micronian pods?



Then there are the marginally different factions like the marines for the UEDF. They may not be a completely new faction but they're frankly not much more unique than most space marine chapters are from each other. In the end, it's not an issue though until after they hit the big 6 factions in the 3 eras first as that is where the money is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:


From what I gather, PB is a blind idiot giant fumbling around smashing into things and incapable of doing anything at all while simultaneously being an evil mustache twirling mastermind completely redesigning rulesets and weighting forums users posts to send their KS packages later than others based on an evil algorithm

Gotcha.

You've been playing too much Halo or 40k. Palladium is not a single hive mind flood type gestalt creature but rather a group of individuals. You can easily have a blind idiot giant working side by side with a mustache twirling villain to use your own words.

 warboss wrote:

While I agree that the potential for a licensed and now strictly regulated IP is less than something completely original, there is room for more than just 2 factions in each era if they just bring in the stuff that they previously disavowed. If the "experimental" mecha are ok, then why not the ZSB prototypes, super alphas, or the sentinels micronian pods?

Spoiler:

My eyes, they burn!!!! why... why would you do that?!

HG or PB cannot make designs that borrow from macross (thank god). That's why during HG's failed ks they borrowed from other anime for designs.

 paulson games wrote:

 warboss wrote:

While I agree that the potential for a licensed and now strictly regulated IP is less than something completely original, there is room for more than just 2 factions in each era if they just bring in the stuff that they previously disavowed. If the "experimental" mecha are ok, then why not the ZSB prototypes, super alphas, or the sentinels micronian pods?

Spoiler:

My eyes, they burn!!!! why... why would you do that?!

Those designs are all awesome! The two last Zentraedi pods look better than 90% of the wave 1 mini designs.

Man, You trippin' like Ed 209 on a flight of stairs.

Those mechs are a train wreck of aesthetics. They can't decide if they want to be boxy with round parts, or round with boxy parts. The reason why Kawamori's designs for Macross/Robotech (and the Transformers) characters all work so well is that he has a very unified and clean cohesion in the design aesthetics. RDF Destroids are boxy throughout the whole design, Veritechs, Zentaedi, Bioroids, Invid are all rounded organic shapes.

Those Palladium designs just a jumble. The one that looks the best is probably the officer pod with the color where most of it flows with the exception of the arms. The second version doesn't even look like it could move, it's legs are just straight tubes and boxes with no appearance of articulation. Every part on that drawing seems to be a conflict between 50% round and 50% box. It tries to ape the officer pod in a very basic form but misses almost every design element that establishes the flow and balance in Kawamori's iconic Glaug design.



They remind me of the quality work that you see airbrushed on the side of a 70's style van. Wizards, Dragons, and Unicorns etc with lightning bolts, magic auras and attempts at mood lighting. The ideas are obviously pretty grand in the artists head but the execution is pretty flat and disjointed so it just doesn't come out right.

 paulson games wrote:
Those mechs are a train wreck of aesthetics. They can't decide if they want to be boxy with round parts, or round with boxy parts. The reason why Kawamori's designs for Macross/Robotech (and the Transformers) characters all work so well is that he has a very unified and clean cohesion in the design aesthetics. RDF Destroids are boxy throughout the whole design, Veritechs, Zentaedi, Bioroids, Invid are all rounded organic shapes.

Those Palladium designs just a jumble. The one that looks the best is probably the officer pod with the color where most of it flows with the exception of the arms. The second version doesn't even look like it could move, it's legs are just straight tubes and boxes with no appearance of articulation. Every part on that drawing seems to be a conflict between 50% round and 50% box. It tries to ape the officer pod in a very basic form but misses almost every design element that establishes the flow and balance in Kawamori's iconic Glaug design.

They're supposed to be a mix of the two design aesthetics because the mechs in the RPG fluff are a mix of the two. They're human designed mechs for zentraedi soldiers that retain the basic shape and similar handling (but improved with better tech) to outfit the zentraedi who left with the REF from earth. What you see as a problem is the exact goal they're working towards so I guess they spectacularly succeeded.

Soul Samurai wrote:
So I've started skimming the rules. Am I reading this right? A standard VF-1A in Guardian mode can move 40 inches in a single turn and then fire all it's weapons? If that's the case, then that's pretty insane. I mean, that's pretty much a whole table width! Coming from Warmachine, I just don't get that.

What's more, if I'm right, in Fighter mode it can "only" move 36 inches, and only in a straight line? So it's faster in Guardian mode than in Fighter mode as well as being more manoeuvrable? And fire more weapons to boot? That makes even less sense to me.

Oops, looks like I was wrong before; missed the Afterburner rule: in Fighter mode it can move 72 inches in a single turn! Is that right?

Yes.....and No.

A player can boost 2x with a VF-1A. This forces it to move 6-12 inches on the first move plus another 6-12 for each time it boosts. The Afterburner part is not optional and it WILL move another 12 inches plus 12 for each time it boosted it's speed. Each boost attempt, note this is an attempt, costs one command point and will require a 6+ adding the units PIL. The second move must be the full amount.

So yes a VF-1A can potentially move 72 inches in a turn. A VF-1J on the other hand can potentially move 96 inches since it has a PIL of 3 and the VF-1S has a PIL of 4 and can potentially move 120 inches in a single activation.

Leaving the table at present makes the unit effectively dead. Also if you boost 3 times hoping to get 2 successful rolls but get 3 the present rules force you to use all 3 successes. I'm hoping that will change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note the FPA can also boost and potentially move 48 inches in one activation with no risk of being forced to fly off the table.

Thanks for the heads-up on the "CoolStuffInc" sale, I bought more Warhammers... er,... "Tomahawks", I like them, I will get Moar!
Oddly enough, some Battletech stuff I wanted on sale as well so it all worked out, you guys are awesome.

Robotech a dead game?
It will only be as alive as those willing to play it.
Like others, I am getting close to a minimal force for both sides together.
I plan on a demo at the FLGS as soon as I have something looking OK.
I like what we got being somewhat self-contained.
Since PB likes to let their product "ride" as-is the GW constant push to upgrade is not a factor.
I figure getting enough for a bit of everything is the goal and then purchasing is done.
Buying battleoids for Battletech is just a side bonus for PB.
I think I will see if I can demo for Hotlead (http://www.hotlead.ca/) which is held late March.
It seems like a reasonable goal and is the ideal venue to showcase: most people go to this to try games they usually do not play.

I have been seeing a few good YouTube videos of fantastic painted miniatures so they are slowly getting out there.
Seeing the tiny decals added successfully was a great moral booster: they are done easily AND happen to look awesome.

What about Wave 2??
I think all the Ninja / PB talk is a roundabout way of expressing concern of how will Wave 2 go.
Some of the top wanted items are in that (armored and "super" Valkyrie) and getting a few Zentradi foot pounders I would like to see.
The silence from PB at this time I think is more due to them working more than they had in decades and are probably taking a rest even if our "down-under" friends are getting unnecessary delays.

Only in Amerika!!!
The discussion of American vs. everyone else customers is rather silly: pretty much any company will state if "foreign" sales/shipping is done.
PB had the opportunity to choose to restrict their backers to USA or North America only but they did not.
So figuring out cost effective means of getting shipping they had time and external resources available to draw-on.
I think they have a "not done here" mentality that they must handle everything themselves where they can (external groups have less control = not work to PB best interest) cause these fun moments.
Sorry, I cannot accept that the "foreign" backers should have some blame for the delay and "should have known better", consumers should expect good service when it is made available to them. Having only one place to go for Robotech tabletop pretty much forces the customer to purchase anyway: there was no other choice.

Bone to pick...
Complaining of past fiascos as rather pointless now (other than for taking present and future official statements with a grain of salt), all we can do is hold their feet to the fire for wave 2 and point to the FAQ/Errata/Update being a needed and a normal thing for war gaming.
If the updates do not happen, then Robotech for "official" support will die on the vine but will give opportunity for fan-base "official" changes (thinking of how Epic 40k is handled).

At least now that items are released to retail, I do not have to deal directly with PB which is a wonderful feeling.

Can you link the fantastic painted minis vids? I've only found mediocre to awful.

Depends on where you look. Here are a few pics, sorry no vids, from the last couple days in Facebook.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's some more
http://robotechrpgtactics.boards.net/thread/78/first-batch-battlepods

 Mike1975 wrote:
Yes.....and No.

A player can boost 2x with a VF-1A. This forces it to move 6-12 inches on the first move plus another 6-12 for each time it boosts. The Afterburner part is not optional and it WILL move another 12 inches plus 12 for each time it boosted it's speed. Each boost attempt, note this is an attempt, costs one command point and will require a 6+ adding the units PIL. The second move must be the full amount.

So yes a VF-1A can potentially move 72 inches in a turn. A VF-1J on the other hand can potentially move 96 inches since it has a PIL of 3 and the VF-1S has a PIL of 4 and can potentially move 120 inches in a single activation.

Leaving the table at present makes the unit effectively dead. Also if you boost 3 times hoping to get 2 successful rolls but get 3 the present rules force you to use all 3 successes. I'm hoping that will change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note the FPA can also boost and potentially move 48 inches in one activation with no risk of being forced to fly off the table.

120? Jeez! Does Rick add another point of PIL to that?

To be honest, I'm kinda warming to the idea of being able to zoom your mechs crazy distances; as long is it's balanced, it sounds like a fun thing to do. Being able to fly a Guardian 40 inches or more and then buy tons of attacks I'm not so sure about. Well, I'm still stuck in a Warmachine mindset, so I don't know how it will actually play out on the table.

Soul Samurai wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
Yes.....and No.

A player can boost 2x with a VF-1A. This forces it to move 6-12 inches on the first move plus another 6-12 for each time it boosts. The Afterburner part is not optional and it WILL move another 12 inches plus 12 for each time it boosted it's speed. Each boost attempt, note this is an attempt, costs one command point and will require a 6+ adding the units PIL. The second move must be the full amount.

So yes a VF-1A can potentially move 72 inches in a turn. A VF-1J on the other hand can potentially move 96 inches since it has a PIL of 3 and the VF-1S has a PIL of 4 and can potentially move 120 inches in a single activation.

Leaving the table at present makes the unit effectively dead. Also if you boost 3 times hoping to get 2 successful rolls but get 3 the present rules force you to use all 3 successes. I'm hoping that will change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note the FPA can also boost and potentially move 48 inches in one activation with no risk of being forced to fly off the table.

120? Jeez! Does Rick add another point of PIL to that?

To be honest, I'm kinda warming to the idea of being able to zoom your mechs crazy distances; as long is it's balanced, it sounds like a fun thing to do. Being able to fly a Guardian 40 inches or more and then buy tons of attacks I'm not so sure about. Well, I'm still stuck in a Warmachine mindset, so I don't know how it will actually play out on the table.

Rick adds +1 PIL AND one free Boost without paying Command Points. That being said Boosting as it is a double edge sword. You can fly over something and strafe or bomb them but if you fly off the table.....

I'd houserule for now that if you fly off you can come back on the same edge you left in D3 turns or something. Also allow a player to reduce the # of boosts if he makes more than he needs.

You can zoom up and deal out some destruction but any unit you do that to is extremely vulnerable. A unit without it's squadron can be slaughtered pretty easily.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Also allow a player to reduce the # of boosts if he makes more than he needs.

You can't measure beforehand?

You can measure beforehand but if you want to boost once, fear you are going to fail and make 2 rolls and both succeed, you are forced to move 36 inches during your afterburner movement.

Sounds like there's a built in risk... Why make it a no-brainer?

It all depends on table size in the end. With smaller tables you will never boost in fighter mode.

 Mike1975 wrote:
http://robotechrpgtactics.boards.net/thread/78/first-batch-battlepods

That guys is very inspiring. I think my January downtime (working less at work) is going to be split between Robotech and Bolt Action.

Joyboozer wrote:
Can you link the fantastic painted minis vids? I've only found mediocre to awful.

This guy seemed pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRendar/videos
Another:http://mindofkeifus.blogspot.ca/2014/11/robotech-vf-1j-valkyrie-veritech-fighter.html
Another:http://thepaintingchallenge.blogspot.ca/2014/12/from-byronm-15mm-wwii-germans-and.html
Ya'know:http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=365308
Ditto:http://cornumortem.blogspot.ca/2014/11/robotech-regult-battlepod.html

Hope that helps.

I just picked up the basic boxset,a nd looked at all the sprues. I was a bit unnerved looking at the Valks.

I am wondering when the Spartans/Gladiators (or whatever they are called now) Destroid boxes are coming out?

Also, since I am lazy, does anyone want to tell me what is in Wave 2?

 Easy E wrote:
I just picked up the basic boxset,a nd looked at all the sprues. I was a bit unnerved looking at the Valks.

I am wondering when the Spartans/Gladiators (or whatever they are called now) Destroid boxes are coming out?

Also, since I am lazy, does anyone want to tell me what is in Wave 2?

Can get the Spartans and Gladiators now in a separate box.

There's a flyer in the basic box that has Wave 1 on one side and Wave 2 on the other side

Hmmmm, my FLGS did not have the other Destroid box, so they lost my money.... For now.

The painting examples are very helpful.

It appears to me that these models are designed to be washed and stained. Drybrushing gives a really harsh look that does not photograph well (although it probably looks just fine on the tabletop).

 paulson games wrote:

 warboss wrote:

While I agree that the potential for a licensed and now strictly regulated IP is less than something completely original, there is room for more than just 2 factions in each era if they just bring in the stuff that they previously disavowed. If the "experimental" mecha are ok, then why not the ZSB prototypes, super alphas, or the sentinels micronian pods?

Spoiler:

My eyes, they burn!!!! why... why would you do that?!

HA HA HA! I feel the same way every time I look at the Sentinels stuff. It was pointed out by someone that the same people made Southern Cross. Hiroshi OGAWA was the lead mechanical designer. But according to the Sentinels WIKI (I know, Primary sources and all that) HG was very much in control of the design process and sent many things back to be redone. Including a de-emphassis on Rick and Lisa. From what I understand HG cannot do the further adventures of rick and lisa becuase they are not allowed derivative use of the Macross IP. (unless they play nice Big West)

I do worry about robotech being a very limited IP and the company controlling that IP (HG). The most popular setting (macross) can only use the stuff from SDF Macross. This is more limiting that is seems because a lot of people take Macrosso You Remember Love for granted. Like Strike Valkyries and even the reconfigured cockpit. The back story fleshed out in Macross Zero is out even though it was quite compelling. Becuase the popularity of macross eclipsed the other two properties so greatly there is not a ton of information or notes on Super Dimensional Calvary Southern Cross or Genesis Climber Mospeada. You can get a few model kits but that's about it.

I do find it interesting that for all the slaming of SC. It was not a ratings failure but rather it's Toy Company Went out of Business. A lot like the Sentinels and Matchbox.

rigeld2 wrote:
Sounds like there's a built in risk... Why make it a no-brainer?

Also, you're using up command points you could use to defend the mech you're likely putting into harm's way. And, since I haven't played, how likely is it you will actually have enough command points to triple move + max attack (+dodge/roll)?

Anyone else gotten and used their laminator that was posted earlier in the thread? I got mine and used it for some robotech cards in case I ever play a game. It works quite quickly although the surface seems a bit visually (but not tactile) splotchy when looked at from an angle even when I ran it through twice. I don't think is due to the admittedly mediocre printer I used as I didn't notice it before laminating. Ultimately, it was a great deal for the price.

 warboss wrote:
Anyone else gotten and used their laminator that was posted earlier in the thread? I got mine and used it for some robotech cards in case I ever play a game. It works quite quickly although the surface seems a bit visually (but not tactile) even when I ran it through twice. I don't think is due to the admittedly mediocre printer I used as I didn't notice it before laminating. Ultimately, it was a great deal for the price.

My acid tape (lamination sheet) works quite well. Now I've this crazy urge to laminate some military maps

 warboss wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
Those mechs are a train wreck of aesthetics. They can't decide if they want to be boxy with round parts, or round with boxy parts. The reason why Kawamori's designs for Macross/Robotech (and the Transformers) characters all work so well is that he has a very unified and clean cohesion in the design aesthetics. RDF Destroids are boxy throughout the whole design, Veritechs, Zentaedi, Bioroids, Invid are all rounded organic shapes.

Those Palladium designs just a jumble. The one that looks the best is probably the officer pod with the color where most of it flows with the exception of the arms. The second version doesn't even look like it could move, it's legs are just straight tubes and boxes with no appearance of articulation. Every part on that drawing seems to be a conflict between 50% round and 50% box. It tries to ape the officer pod in a very basic form but misses almost every design element that establishes the flow and balance in Kawamori's iconic Glaug design.

They're supposed to be a mix of the two design aesthetics because the mechs in the RPG fluff are a mix of the two. They're human designed mechs for zentraedi soldiers that retain the basic shape and similar handling (but improved with better tech) to outfit the zentraedi who left with the REF from earth. What you see as a problem is the exact goal they're working towards so I guess they spectacularly succeeded.

Even back in the 90's they were terrible designs. I hope those abominations never see the light of day. I have to agree with Paulson on this. I'm just to used to the designs of kawamorri. They look too much like cheap knock offs.

rigeld2 wrote:
Sounds like there's a built in risk... Why make it a no-brainer?

I agree, the fact that you're likely to fly off the table and "die" if you try to go too fast sounds like a good way to balance the speed boost with a risk/reward mechanic. Plus there's a cinematic quality to boosting as much as you can to make sure you can fly across the entire table and deliver a single, potentially game-winning shot, even though you know you're dooming yourself (well, your model). Reminds me of that one time in that Macross OVA when the guy takes the limiters off his veritech and pushes it so hard that his eyes explode.

Personally, I think tying too many mechanics to the PIL stat was a mistake; it makes it harder to allow a model to do a few things better/worse without letting it do EVERYTHING better/worse (case in point: a couple of extra points of piloting makes a mech many, many times faster), at least without having to write lots and lots of special rules which you wouldn't have needed if you'd just added a new stat.

Still, so far the speed and movement mechanics are looking to me like the most unique feature this game has (at least compared to the few tabletop games I have experience with) and I imagine would give it a very different feel in practice. I'm actually starting to want to try to play the game after all. Overall I feel like the Command Point mechanic makes a nice half-way point between the very limited Focus mechanic of Warmachine and the completely unlimited Action Points mechanic of Infinity.

Does anyone else thinking actually manually swapping Veritech models every time you change mode will be a big pain? I'm thinking of just using some kind of custom counter to denote what mode each model is in. The added advantage of this is that you only have to assemble and paint each game model once, not THREE TIMES.

BTW it's probably been mentioned but I'd rather not have to go searching for it, so does anyone know if the "super" veritechs (the ones with just the extra missles and thrusters, not the extra armour) will be single models or add-on bits? I assume they will be part of Wave 2, so not expecting them anytime soon? I'm just wondering if it will be possible to magnetise the extra bits and add them to an existing model. Not that I think it will save any effort or anything, I just think it would be cool.

 warboss wrote:
If the "experimental" mecha are ok, then why not the ZSB prototypes, super alphas, or the sentinels micronian pods?

I'm going to go a bit against the grain, but I kinda like the Z1.

Adding a set of arms to the basic Z Pods is a generally good idea. Arms do improve the design, bringing the Pods more in line with the Glaug, MPA and FPAs. The arms don't need to (and shouldn't) be those particular arms, but should be slim with big hands, to match the slim legs with giant feet.

Soul Samurai wrote:
BTW it's probably been mentioned but I'd rather not have to go searching for it, so does anyone know if the "super" veritechs (the ones with just the extra missles and thrusters, not the extra armour) will be single models or add-on bits? I assume they will be part of Wave 2, so not expecting them anytime soon? I'm just wondering if it will be possible to magnetise the extra bits and add them to an existing model. Not that I think it will save any effort or anything, I just think it would be cool.

Super VT's are indeed in Wave 2, and my understanding is that they will be full models, not add on bits.

There may be some add on bits (possibly in Resin and/or Pewter) for the VEF-1/1D pack the backers get, due to some shenanigans after the fact, but I think that's supposed to be the only case.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The painting examples are very helpful.
It appears to me that these models are designed to be washed and stained. Drybrushing gives a really harsh look that does not photograph well (although it probably looks just fine on the tabletop).

I find on smooth surfaces dry brushing may be an incorrect method to use (or at least not very efficient).
That technique is ideal for say fur, scales, feathers or pebbled surfaces: rough raised surfaces, like a mass area means of edge highlighting.

I am still in the middle of assembly but I figure I will block-paint the surfaces with an airbrush and then use the high-flow washes for getting all those little grooves: marking them all with a technical pen could drive me insane.

I would then finish up with some edge highlighting.

Some gem effects with the cockpit on the Valks I am looking forward to.

The decals will be an awesome finishing touch but wow the work.

http://robotechrpgtactics.boards.net/thread/219/errata

Come chime in.

For me, I'm thinking something similar:
1. prime light grey or white
2. color tint with thin paint
3. ink grooves & edge highlight
4. shadow wash

Here's some videos of how mine came out https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dn1j9hhZ6BY when is wave 2 coming ?

 warboss wrote:
Anyone else gotten and used their laminator that was posted earlier in the thread? I got mine and used it for some robotech cards in case I ever play a game. It works quite quickly although the surface seems a bit visually (but not tactile) splotchy when looked at from an angle even when I ran it through twice. I don't think is due to the admittedly mediocre printer I used as I didn't notice it before laminating. Ultimately, it was a great deal for the price.

Sounds like it's not hot enough.

I have that one which I used for my Zombicide cards, cardstock stuff needs to be used on the hotter #2 setting. Once you've run it through rerunning it won't really do anything, so it needs to be on the cardstock setting and at proper heat level before you run it through.

I screwed up a pair of the cards before I figured out what I was doing wrong, they are still usable but it's not clear like it should be, where the later cards I ran through on the cardstock setting are crystal clear.

You will also always want to feed it from the folded/sealed edge of the pouch first, if you don't it can cause bubbles to get trapped inside the laminate.

Thanks for the replies. The instructions said to run it through again if it is a bit foggy or splotchy but I'll try the thicker setting. I was using the official scotch pouches and just a single sheet of printer paper.

Haven't used mine yet. But look forward to doing it soon. The Mars Base blog guy made a quick reference sheet and stat sheets for both. I really want to use wet erase marker on my cards and laminating is required. Or I will use Mike's Cards and those for sure need lamination.

 Mike1975 wrote:
http://robotechrpgtactics.boards.net/thread/219/errata

Come chime in.

As I've come to realize, if the MA's are indeed going to go through with their RRT tournament at Adepticon, they have 11 weeks to come up with answers, official or unofficial. Less, actually, given that people should have at least a week or more notice as to how the rules will be played and what force construction stipulations may be in place.

Like, we batted a bunch of discussions about with minimal concern because the game wasn't 'in the wild' yet, but their first tournament is less than 3 months away.

There's a set of Warhammer Adepticon tournaments being discussed in the appropriate forum that has had a thread with info for the last 7 months.

Granted, Adepticon seems to get a small fraction of the numbers that attend Gencon, but even if one is generous about the snags that can pop up for a new product line and competitive scene, if they plan to do anything significant at Gencon (and they'd be crazy not to), this will be a place to 'beta test' such an event in such a venue.

Are they really providing the minis for that tournament? What the hell?

That should be interesting. Either having, like, a thousand models built, or having extremely small lists, though having a 'tournament' where you're running 4-12 figures in something that has been very clearly noted to *not* be a Skirmish game seems strange.

Moreso if they're using flat out pre-generated unit lists, which seems like less of a Tournament and more an Elaborate Multi-Round Demo That Maybe Has Some Prizes.

Guess we'll find out when we get closer to Adepticon.

This already sounds bad.

Where are you guys getting that the tourney is providing the minis? Are you sure you're not confusing the tourny on Saturday

http://www.cvent.com/events/adepticon-2015/agenda-ec700157f5894ca891500186aec58ca9.aspx

with the open play daily demo that will provide minis?

http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=2522

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=146543

Interesting. FRPGames publishes their top sellers and Robotech RPG Tactics main game is #2 (behind Imperial Assault, followed by Zombicide)

While that's nice, I'm not sure one data point really means anything, other than that at FRPG it's selling strongly.

Cool Stuff Inc's top 6 list doesn't have Robotech on it at all.

I was under the impression that there isn't really an industry wide list anyway, that most released involved what stores decided to share/self report, but nothing like the music or movie industries.

 judgedoug wrote:
Interesting. FRPGames publishes their top sellers and Robotech RPG Tactics main game is #2 (behind Imperial Assault, followed by Zombicide)

I would be curious if FRP's top sellers include the distribution arm as well (Warpath).

Happy to hear that it is selling.I know one snapshot from one retailer does not make a success, but to see RTT on any list is encouraging for products beyond wave 2.

No building progress to report, Got a bunch of Valks ready for glue, tho.

Wow. So if RRT does manage to have a following, it'll be killed at Adepticon. Somehow I doubt they'd have enough mini's available for more than 4 players at once.

Way to go, dunderheads.

Quick check in: January 2015, and I still don't have a single Robotech product in hand, with no indication it will arrive before February

 NTRabbit wrote:
Quick check in: January 2015, and I still don't have a single Robotech product in hand, with no indication it will arrive before February

There's a pretty strong indication that it won't arrive before February. Does that count?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 NTRabbit wrote:
Quick check in: January 2015, and I still don't have a single Robotech product in hand, with no indication it will arrive before February

There's a pretty strong indication that it won't arrive before February. Does that count?

That's the date I'm assuming... "before the end of february", more likely towards the end of the month than the start.

Haven't gotten any notice from palladium either. Has anyone not in Canada or USA gotten anything?

Some bloke in New Zealand got his stuff last month apparently. Was on the FB group. Probably a mistake on PB's part the cynical part of my brain is telling me.

And I got all mine in the UK last month.

Mind you, not anything to shout about as all it was was the stupid decal sheet that I'd e-mailed them and told them to leave back for wave 2.

I mean, what use is the UEDF decal sheet when I won't get any models to stick them on for another 12-18 months? And they have now officially blown over $2.50 of the $6 postage I paid getting it sent direct from the USA to me.

Palladium books - making two short planks look like a computer!

And just to add salt to the wound Wayne (from palladium) is now answering rules questions on Mikes facesbook group.

Awesome!

Not to rub salt in the wound, but I didn't even back the KS and I managed to pick it up at retail already!

If I was an overseas backer I would be pretty upset.

Well, I suppose everyone wants as early a run at the game due to 1/2 hour per model build times (slightly better with pods, slightly worse with veritechs).

Yeah, update on items to look out for on assembly:
- Glaug chin guns tend to snap in half when you go to clip out of sprue.
- On the scout pod that flat spatula piece that attaches to the side face is just silly to try to cut. Better off trimming some plastic polystyrene to size.

My sympathies to those who have not received their packages yet, but you can at least benefit from the various things we have found before you.

Wayne from PB answering on Facebook?
Is he allowed outside the PB forum bubble?
Now if a FAQ could be distributed from Facebook all would be well...

@#$÷$#$÷^%/&€£!?+! You Palladium! I won't be able to sell it off (due to their retail lies), I haven't got time to build it (due to their overly complex sprue design/max number of pieces) and I don't even get to play it! (because it isn't flipping here yet!/not to mention the dodgy diy rules when they do decide to send it)

- I might need to build a skaven army while I wait (I've got time, right?).

I think you should hold off on complaining about build difficulty if you haven't built any of the models.

In my experience, having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids, these are NOT difficult to build if you pay attention.

The model issues are vastly overblown by people who either lack basic modeling skills, or simply have an axe to grind against Palladium.

Slap a different brand on the RRT model boxes, and they're simply small high detail scale model kits.

Not having gotten any yet, they look awfully small scale to me, far too small for the number of parts involved.

When I build scale models they're 1:35, and the crew don't come in anywhere near that many pieces.

If you can properly build a 1/35 tank by Dragon, etc., then you can build RRT models without issue.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think you should hold off on complaining about build difficulty if you haven't built any of the models.

In my experience, having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids, these are NOT difficult to build if you pay attention.

The model issues are vastly overblown by people who either lack basic modeling skills, or simply have an axe to grind against Palladium.

Slap a different brand on the RRT model boxes, and they're simply small high detail scale model kits.

actually I've heard from people that have rather great modeling skills and have spoken well of PB who have said these models suck, tell me have you made any? i'm curious since you seem to be coming from a point of knowledge, so i'm curious if you have any built and if any pics.

furthermore if you have built some, could you answer some build questions some of us are curious about, like how did you hide the seams? how did you align the misaligned pieces? how did you attach the arms in the guardian mode? now this is the big one, how did you cut off some of the thin small pieces without breaking them ?

Just curious since I've been building models and miniatures for over 30 years and I find these models daunting to say the least, and I'm a pretty good modeler too.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you can properly build a 1/35 tank by Dragon, etc., then you can build RRT models without issue.

If you can build a 1/72 tank kit without going insane, RRT models are a breeze.

...especially if you've ever had to assemble gakky 1/72 kits like some crap Katyusha kit where you have to actually melt the sprue to make pieces for the kit. Ever been told by an instruction sheet to apply a piece of your sprue to a flame to heat it up and stretch it out because they couldn't be bothered to include the part on the frame?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In my experience, having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids, these are NOT difficult to build if you pay attention.

That is a fine piece of personal opinion. Glad you're having an easy time with them.

The model issues are vastly overblown by people who either lack basic modeling skills, or simply have an axe to grind against Palladium.

Oh you.

Asterios wrote:

furthermore if you have built some, could you answer some build questions some of us are curious about, like how did you hide the seams? how did you align the misaligned pieces? how did you attach the arms in the guardian mode? now this is the big one, how did you cut off some of the thin small pieces without breaking them ?

Just curious since I've been building models and miniatures for over 30 years and I find these models daunting to say the least, and I'm a pretty good modeler too.

Personally I use Plastruct Plastic Weld liberally and push the pieces together with a fair amount of pressure; most seams disappear. Remaining seams (the annoying destroid leg seams, basically) are quickly covered by Liquid Green Stuff or Vallejo Plastic Putty (in the paint bottle), wet sanded for a few seconds. I didn't experience any misaligned pieces. Guardian mode arms are definitely tricky but I'm a brute force kind of guy, the pegs go in if you jam 'em hard enough thin pieces, I use very sharp side cutters and Xacto Z blades ("zirconium nitride coating applied at the atomic level after blades are atomically sharpened.") Actually I only use Z blades period, because nothing else compares (http://xacto.com/products/cutting-solutions/knives/knives/Z-Series-1-Precision-Knife.aspx). I have only broken one head laser.

Surely that shouldn't be the measuring stick for hard model assembly. That should be a sign of mental illness and a cry for help from the manufacturer.

I have complained a lot about the VEritechs, but I do love to complain, so fair call there. I said they were as difficult as some of the tricker Wyrd plastics, and I stand by that. Some people have no problem with Wyrd plastics, some people get very frustrated.

I am also curious if John Huangdi bothers trimming the guardian arms or if he is happy with them sticking out on the extra long cylinder tabs.

 judgedoug wrote:

Asterios wrote:

furthermore if you have built some, could you answer some build questions some of us are curious about, like how did you hide the seams? how did you align the misaligned pieces? how did you attach the arms in the guardian mode? now this is the big one, how did you cut off some of the thin small pieces without breaking them ?

Just curious since I've been building models and miniatures for over 30 years and I find these models daunting to say the least, and I'm a pretty good modeler too.

Personally I use Plastruct Plastic Weld liberally and push the pieces together with a fair amount of pressure; most seams disappear. Remaining seams (the annoying destroid leg seams, basically) are quickly covered by Liquid Green Stuff or Vallejo Plastic Putty (in the paint bottle), wet sanded for a few seconds. I didn't experience any misaligned pieces. Guardian mode arms are definitely tricky but I'm a brute force kind of guy, the pegs go in if you jam 'em hard enough thin pieces, I use very sharp side cutters and Xacto Z blades ("zirconium nitride coating applied at the atomic level after blades are atomically sharpened.") Actually I only use Z blades period, because nothing else compares (http://xacto.com/products/cutting-solutions/knives/knives/Z-Series-1-Precision-Knife.aspx). I have only broken one head laser.

problem is people are having issues with the seams being in spots that are hard to reach to file down when filled in, also some of the torsos are misaligned when applied, also didn't help they didn't have good directions with the game either.

Judge Doug, surely that shouldn't be the measuring stick for hard model assembly. That should be a sign of mental illness and a cry for help from the manufacturer.

I have complained a lot about the VEritechs, but I do love to complain, so fair call there. I said they were as difficult as some of the tricker Wyrd plastics, and I stand by that. Some people have no problem with Wyrd plastics, some people get very frustrated.

I am also curious if John Huangdi bothers trimming the guardian arms or if he is happy with them sticking out on the extra long cylinder tabs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh. Slow internet

Asterios wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think you should hold off on complaining about build difficulty if you haven't built any of the models.

In my experience, having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids, these are NOT difficult to build if you pay attention.

The model issues are vastly overblown by people who either lack basic modeling skills, or simply have an axe to grind against Palladium.

Slap a different brand on the RRT model boxes, and they're simply small high detail scale model kits.

actually I've heard from people that have rather great modeling skills and have spoken well of PB who have said these models suck, tell me have you made any? i'm curious since you seem to be coming from a point of knowledge, so i'm curious if you have any built and if any pics.

furthermore if you have built some, could you answer some build questions some of us are curious about, like how did you hide the seams? how did you align the misaligned pieces? how did you attach the arms in the guardian mode? now this is the big one, how did you cut off some of the thin small pieces without breaking them ?

Just curious since I've been building models and miniatures for over 30 years and I find these models daunting to say the least, and I'm a pretty good modeler too.

Perhaps these "great" modelers aren't actually as good as they claim, kind of how they probably also claim to be excellent drivers, excellent lovers, master strategists, etc., etc.

To answer the question whether I've built any, I'm going to quote myself:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids

No, I don't have pics up on Dakka.

The seams aren't very large, and weld up fine. If I cared, for competition work, I could run a little liquid cement over them, but seams really weren't an issue for me. There were no misalignment issues in the models I built. The molds are in good condition, and everything seems to have been properly aligned with minimal flash. The halves glue up nicely, assuming one does standard prep and works with "hot" cement. Had I cared, I'm sure I could have gotten even tighter seams.

If you had bothered to read what I wrote, you'd note that I haven't built the Guardians (yet). Based on the Destroids that I built earlier, I'm not worried. These are far simpler than the transforming Revell Super Valks I built as a kid.

I own sprue clippers and fingernail clippers, and the only problem piece that broke was the 1x3x0.5mm antenna on the Recon Pod. This is good quality plastic - it holds detail, and is strong and rigid.

I've been building models for well over 30 years, and they were completely straighforward, no real issues aside from breaking the one micro antenna bit. This stuff builds far easier and cleaner than CMoN "restic", for example.

Tell you what, I'll take a shot at knocking out a Guardian and/or Fighter tonight. It's possible that they're worse, but I doubt it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think you should hold off on complaining about build difficulty if you haven't built any of the models.

In my experience, having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids, these are NOT difficult to build if you pay attention.

The model issues are vastly overblown by people who either lack basic modeling skills, or simply have an axe to grind against Palladium.

Slap a different brand on the RRT model boxes, and they're simply small high detail scale model kits.

actually I've heard from people that have rather great modeling skills and have spoken well of PB who have said these models suck, tell me have you made any? i'm curious since you seem to be coming from a point of knowledge, so i'm curious if you have any built and if any pics.

furthermore if you have built some, could you answer some build questions some of us are curious about, like how did you hide the seams? how did you align the misaligned pieces? how did you attach the arms in the guardian mode? now this is the big one, how did you cut off some of the thin small pieces without breaking them ?

Just curious since I've been building models and miniatures for over 30 years and I find these models daunting to say the least, and I'm a pretty good modeler too.

Perhaps these "great" modelers aren't actually as good as they claim, kind of how they probably also claim to be excellent drivers, excellent lovers, master strategists, etc., etc.

To answer the question whether I've built any, I'm going to quote myself:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids

No, I don't have pics up on Dakka.

The seams aren't very large, and weld up fine. If I cared, for competition work, I could run a little liquid cement over them, but seams really weren't an issue for me. There were no misalignment issues in the models I built. The molds are in good condition, and everything seems to have been properly aligned with minimal flash. The halves glue up nicely, assuming one does standard prep and works with "hot" cement. Had I cared, I'm sure I could have gotten even tighter seams.

If you had bothered to read what I wrote, you'd note that I haven't built the Guardians (yet). Based on the Destroids that I built earlier, I'm not worried. These are far simpler than the transforming Revell Super Valks I built as a kid.

I own sprue clippers and fingernail clippers, and the only problem piece that broke was the 1x3x0.5mm antenna on the Recon Pod. This is good quality plastic - it holds detail, and is strong and rigid.

I've been building models for well over 30 years, and they were completely straighforward, no real issues aside from breaking the one micro antenna bit. This stuff builds far easier and cleaner than CMoN "restic", for example.

Tell you what, I'll take a shot at knocking out a Guardian and/or Fighter tonight. It's possible that they're worse, but I doubt it.

so have you built the recon pod? just curious, since that seems to be a problem catcher model, also with no pics its just your word that you built them, I'm from the show me state so show me some pics.

 judgedoug wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you can properly build a 1/35 tank by Dragon, etc., then you can build RRT models without issue.

If you can build a 1/72 tank kit without going insane, RRT models are a breeze.

...especially if you've ever had to assemble gakky 1/72 kits like some crap Katyusha kit where you have to actually melt the sprue to make pieces for the kit. Ever been told by an instruction sheet to apply a piece of your sprue to a flame to heat it up and stretch it out because they couldn't be bothered to include the part on the frame?

bt;dt. I cut my teeth on 1/72 Airfix kits. I reference 1/35 by Dragon, as the modern trend is to include all of the little details for 100% accuracy - not the simplified crap that Tamiya cranked out in the 70s.

You think pulling an antenna from sprue is bad? That's nothing. Try this: Non-workible Individual Link Track. OMG. Not only is it a zillion tiny pieces to clean up, but you have to glue them together with zero inherent structure keeping them together. I would almost rather go back to Airfix rubber bands or Tamiya heat together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think you should hold off on complaining about build difficulty if you haven't built any of the models.

In my experience, having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids, these are NOT difficult to build if you pay attention.

The model issues are vastly overblown by people who either lack basic modeling skills, or simply have an axe to grind against Palladium.

actually I've heard from people that have rather great modeling skills and have spoken well of PB who have said these models suck, tell me have you made any? i'm curious since you seem to be coming from a point of knowledge, so i'm curious if you have any built and if any pics.

furthermore if you have built some, could you answer some build questions some of us are curious about, like how did you hide the seams? how did you align the misaligned pieces? how did you attach the arms in the guardian mode? now this is the big one, how did you cut off some of the thin small pieces without breaking them ?

Just curious since I've been building models and miniatures for over 30 years and I find these models daunting to say the least, and I'm a pretty good modeler too.

Perhaps these "great" modelers aren't actually as good as they claim, kind of how they probably also claim to be excellent drivers, excellent lovers, master strategists, etc., etc.

To answer the question whether I've built any, I'm going to quote myself:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids

No, I don't have pics up on Dakka.

The seams aren't very large, and weld up fine. If I cared, for competition work, I could run a little liquid cement over them, but seams really weren't an issue for me. There were no misalignment issues in the models I built. The molds are in good condition, and everything seems to have been properly aligned with minimal flash. The halves glue up nicely, assuming one does standard prep and works with "hot" cement. Had I cared, I'm sure I could have gotten even tighter seams.

If you had bothered to read what I wrote, you'd note that I haven't built the Guardians (yet). Based on the Destroids that I built earlier, I'm not worried. These are far simpler than the transforming Revell Super Valks I built as a kid.

I own sprue clippers and fingernail clippers, and the only problem piece that broke was the 1x3x0.5mm antenna on the Recon Pod. This is good quality plastic - it holds detail, and is strong and rigid.

I've been building models for well over 30 years, and they were completely straighforward, no real issues aside from breaking the one micro antenna bit. This stuff builds far easier and cleaner than CMoN "restic", for example.

Tell you what, I'll take a shot at knocking out a Guardian and/or Fighter tonight. It's possible that they're worse, but I doubt it.

so have you built the recon pod? just curious, since that seems to be a problem catcher model, also with no pics its just your word that you built them, I'm from the show me state so show me some pics.

Yes, I built the Recon Pod. Trivially easy build. Very straightforward. Just google up a big picture of the larger Bandai reference model while you build it, and it's obvious where everything should go.

Fine, I'll get some pics together, not that they're really necessary or prove anything.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

You think pulling an antenna from sprue is bad? That's nothing. Try this: Non-workible Individual Link Track. OMG. Not only is it a zillion tiny pieces to clean up, but you have to glue them together with zero inherent structure keeping them together. I would almost rather go back to Airfix rubber bands or Tamiya heat together.

Oh, no, nono, not pulling antenna. Pulling the _structure_. edit: ACTUALLY, the AXLES! You had to melt and pull the goddamn sprue in a perfectly straight and consistently thick rod, defying all laws of physics in the process, to construct the axles for the model. I'll find the kit manufacturer.

But, dude, that's what I grew up on - terrible 1/72 kits. Individual track links is what made me a MAN! It doesn't help that in the mid 90's I was also buying the Macross 15th Anniversary kits including those aforementioned transformable Valkyries. Bandai? 1/100, I think? Those were one of the most frustrating things I've ever done in my life.


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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Judge Doug, surely that shouldn't be the measuring stick for hard model assembly. That should be a sign of mental illness and a cry for help from the manufacturer.

Oh, no, of course, I would prefer that all the models came without needing assembly at all. Make no mistake, I agree the RRT models are overly complicated; I just don't think they are that bad. And they look pretty damn snazzy when all done up.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
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Asterios wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think you should hold off on complaining about build difficulty if you haven't built any of the models.

In my experience, having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids, these are NOT difficult to build if you pay attention.

The model issues are vastly overblown by people who either lack basic modeling skills, or simply have an axe to grind against Palladium.

actually I've heard from people that have rather great modeling skills and have spoken well of PB who have said these models suck, tell me have you made any? i'm curious since you seem to be coming from a point of knowledge, so i'm curious if you have any built and if any pics.

furthermore if you have built some, could you answer some build questions some of us are curious about, like how did you hide the seams? how did you align the misaligned pieces? how did you attach the arms in the guardian mode? now this is the big one, how did you cut off some of the thin small pieces without breaking them ?

Just curious since I've been building models and miniatures for over 30 years and I find these models daunting to say the least, and I'm a pretty good modeler too.

Perhaps these "great" modelers aren't actually as good as they claim, kind of how they probably also claim to be excellent drivers, excellent lovers, master strategists, etc., etc.

To answer the question whether I've built any, I'm going to quote myself:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
having built Z Glaug & Pods, along with Destroids and Battloids

No, I don't have pics up on Dakka.

The seams aren't very large, and weld up fine. If I cared, for competition work, I could run a little liquid cement over them, but seams really weren't an issue for me. There were no misalignment issues in the models I built. The molds are in good condition, and everything seems to have been properly aligned with minimal flash. The halves glue up nicely, assuming one does standard prep and works with "hot" cement. Had I cared, I'm sure I could have gotten even tighter seams.

If you had bothered to read what I wrote, you'd note that I haven't built the Guardians (yet). Based on the Destroids that I built earlier, I'm not worried. These are far simpler than the transforming Revell Super Valks I built as a kid.

I own sprue clippers and fingernail clippers, and the only problem piece that broke was the 1x3x0.5mm antenna on the Recon Pod. This is good quality plastic - it holds detail, and is strong and rigid.

I've been building models for well over 30 years, and they were completely straighforward, no real issues aside from breaking the one micro antenna bit. This stuff builds far easier and cleaner than CMoN "restic", for example.

Tell you what, I'll take a shot at knocking out a Guardian and/or Fighter tonight. It's possible that they're worse, but I doubt it.

so have you built the recon pod? just curious, since that seems to be a problem catcher model, also with no pics its just your word that you built them, I'm from the show me state so show me some pics.

Yes, I built the Recon Pod. Trivially easy build. Very straightforward. Just google up a big picture of the larger Bandai reference model while you build it, and it's obvious where everything should go.

Fine, I'll get some pics together, not that they're really necessary or prove anything.

so far all your saying is, you have to have mad modeling skills to assemble these minis, which pretty much rules out the casual gamer which PB needs to have the game survive, look how GW does their starter games up, simple easy models that look great, that's how you get new players and such, not with what PB did.