Overread wrote: Whilst I'm not the worlds greatest fan of "endless colours of space marines". I do feel that removing an army like that in that way would be the wrong move for fans. The time to do that was if they had just one or two models only to their name; but they've been a while standing army for a good while now. It's not like they are one or two models that can roll back into a main arm codex (like how Harliquins rolled back into Craftworld).
It happened to the Deathwatch.
A move that was so unpopular it forced GW to quickly release a free pdf of army rules for them.
There are a number of armies that I don’t think should have been fleshed out to full ones. The problem is now that they have, and there is a player base attached to them, how to deal with it? Will we see GK get the same treatment as DE? Slowly loose units and get phoned in rules? Or SoB? Ignored until a massive refresh?
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I’m glad GW moved away from “every bit has rules” 3x types of guns/units based on what kind of scope/mag you used. Marines are bloated enough without that level of detail. Save it for KT. We do not need pages upon pages of different flavors of bolters.
I'm half and half on weapons having different profiles.
On the one hand I think if a model has a different weapon in the box then that weapon should have a different profile. I'm also open with things like special weapons being limited in squads.
What we have right now with no limits and - esp in AoS - no variation - just feels bland. A spear and sword should be different and do different things.
A unit of termagaunts should have one or two special weapons chosen for a role not just all of them because there's no reason not to take them.
I do get why its happened to some units. Eg Tyranids went from having two or three jack-of-all trade units to having a LOT more unit types and eventually you do hit the issue of new models and old ones fighting for the same role in the army. So I can get why Warriors went from lots of close combat roles and types to just one flat profile if it leaves room for ravenors and other units to fill that close combat specialist slot that one or two other weapon choices on the warrior used to fill.
Marines will get at least:
- New Interecessors (same loadout as before)
Which means, they keep / return the currently unsupported Stalker/Auto Bolt/Bolt Rifle variants?
Might be the least plausible thing about this, IMO. If they refresh Intercessors, surely they'd get rid of all the options currently on them that are effectively "legends" as rules-support goes?
well no, thats not what this meant. "Same loadout as before" in this context means that they will still be interecessors, ie. all boters, and not a modern version of a tac squad with access to special/hvy weapons like some people have been wishlisting.
For full context, watch Valrak's video. I'm just referencing (poorly) what was said. There was also talks of Mega Armoured boss for the Orks. I listed the stuff he claimed he was pretty sure was coming, there's going to be more than just what was listed..
Chaos Battleforces for pre-order next week and a tease of the Eye of Terror release to be shown on Monday. That seems to lock in Adepticon for the 11th Edition announcement.
It's nice to see some Chaos Legionnaires in 40k wearing HH era plate. Though slightly weird that it turns out to be on a guy who didn't fight in the Heresy but there you go.
That upgrade kit is fine. Not as good as the Night Lords one, but better than most of them, the contents are actually useful and there's not too many bare heads.
Interestingly, the guy is cartoonishly chunkified in just about the same way as those AI fakes, and bears no resemblance to the new wasp waist Cataphractii.
lord_blackfang wrote: Interestingly, the guy is cartoonishly chunkified in just about the same way as those AI fakes, and bears no resemblance to the new wasp waist Cataphractii.
Good point, I hadn't really thought about that (not intending to replace my old Cataphractii, so the new ones didn't spring to mind immediately). I guess probably speaks to the silo between 40k and 30k designers perhaps...?
That and it’s clearly a well modified suit. Which, being Cataphractii, has likely seen more than a few refurbishments over the intervening 10,000 years.
Sure, I’d want to paint the face a bit more skin toned, as it does kind of blend away into nothingness here.
But for the rest of it as a potential future painting project? It seems like a fun challenge. Nice mix of materials to give an interesting palette, without lots and lots of finneckity detail I almost certainly would not be arsed to paint properly.
Sure, I’d want to paint the face a bit more skin toned, as it does kind of blend away into nothingness here.
But for the rest of it as a potential future painting project? It seems like a fun challenge. Nice mix of materials to give an interesting palette, without lots and lots of finneckity detail I almost certainly would not be arsed to paint properly.
I think it would be a good test subject for those, new toned metallic paints from Vallejo.
Sure, I’d want to paint the face a bit more skin toned, as it does kind of blend away into nothingness here.
But for the rest of it as a potential future painting project? It seems like a fun challenge. Nice mix of materials to give an interesting palette, without lots and lots of finneckity detail I almost certainly would not be arsed to paint properly.
I think it would be a good test subject for those, new toned metallic paints from Vallejo.
I haven't tried the regular metallic ones yet, but the coloured metallic ones are flipping fantastic. Heresy players rejoice.
Warsmith looks great (really seems more like an Indomitus suit with Cataphractii shoulder pads though).
The helmeted heads from the upgrade sets will definitely also see use in Horus Heresy, since the resin Iron Warriors helmets are a bit weird and suffer from being designed as a MkVI-hybrid but without the beaks. The bare heads seem quite wonky though, they give me Masters of the Universe vibes.
This has sealed me in for Corsairs tbh. Considering how good they've got for their stuff and the Night Lords stuff that's come out, this is pretty weak sauce.
Cool skull plate masks? No, just Mk2.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That and it’s clearly a well modified suit. Which, being Cataphractii, has likely seen more than a few refurbishments over the intervening 10,000 years.
Keep in mind that this guy isn't 10,000 years old, so he's clearly not the first to wear it.
Also? It's Chaos. Who knows what the Warp has done to that armor?
I cant even tell if its a pathetic tactical rock or just som basing material. Either way Im not paying for a dude just standing there on the ground like its the 90s.
I'm personally a little glad it isn't Perturabo, doesn't mean he isn't coming though...
Warsmith is just okay personally - pose doesn't really work for me I think, but I do really like his crude, and very visable, MIU implementation!
Clearly just showing my grumpy grognard side, but why does it have to be special Warsmith Fred vs just a new generic Warsmith kit? Ugh.
Yeah, something struck me about the warsmith and I think you hit the nail on the head. His pose is just sort of meh, he's not pointing his bolter or winding up to swing, he's just sort of standing there like someone just called his name and he turned to look.
The individual elements of the model are good (though I would have liked chainmail rather than those hanging chevron-y bits of armor) but the composition of those elements together just doesn't pop.
Really really like the warpsmitg and the upgrade kit. IW were never an army that interested me, but it seems like it could change fast if the rest of the releases is of that level
streetsamurai wrote: Really really like the warpsmitg and the upgrade kit. IW were never an army that interested me, but it seems like it could change fast if the rest of the releases is of that level
The rest of the releases are generic chaos space marine kits in theory, so that's all the iron warrioring they're putting out according to rumours. Much like the loyalist chapter releases, it'll be he upgrade sprue, character and a combat patrol. There just happens to be other units for everyone as well in the defiler and mutilators.
Latest Valrak video about the Ork half of the 11th edition box set:
Reiterated the inclusion of new Ork Boyz, referring to them for the first time (I think?) specifically as Goffs. Also a Runtherd and Gretchin, and finally a Wartrak, which he referenced with a GorkaMorka-era model.
I’m more and more convinced that the box he’s describing is an update of the classic 2nd Edition one ? I’m here for it!
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Latest Valrak video about the Ork half of the 11th edition box set:
Reiterated the inclusion of new Ork Boyz, referring to them for the first time (I think?) specifically as Goffs. Also a Runtherd and Gretchin, and finally a Wartrak, which he referenced with a GorkaMorka-era model.
I’m more and more convinced that the box he’s describing is an update of the classic 2nd Edition one ? I’m here for it!
I would love to see Trakks come back. I could really use something in a modern scale for Gorkamorka.
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Latest Valrak video about the Ork half of the 11th edition box set:
Reiterated the inclusion of new Ork Boyz, referring to them for the first time (I think?) specifically as Goffs. Also a Runtherd and Gretchin, and finally a Wartrak, which he referenced with a GorkaMorka-era model.
I’m more and more convinced that the box he’s describing is an update of the classic 2nd Edition one ? I’m here for it!
Huron and his boys seem a lot worse at a glance than Titus+Wardens. Like they've got a decent amount of attacks and stuff, but the dog doesn't even have rules just a once-per-game chance at mortal wounds.
If it’s true that the 11th Edition box will be a callback to 2nd Edition, it would be a strange decision. Nostalgia for a 30 year old edition isn’t going to attract that many new players. Doing a proper overhaul of the Ork range (starting with the Boyz) may do it, however.
Snord wrote: Nostalgia for a 30 year old edition isn’t going to attract that many new players.
* Gestures vaguely in the direction of all the people buying TOW, HH, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and other GW ranges based heavily on 90's teenage nostalgia *
My understanding is that its just an homage. Standard marines that will be painted red. Box art probably has a modern primaris looking recreation of the original art.
I guess we get to look forward to seeing the new Defiler tomorrow?
Warhammer Community wrote:We’re also following on from last Monday’s thunderous reveal with a new update for a classic kit revealed tomorrow – can you guess what it is?
Four of the classic Captains, to shown with the cloak backpack, and Armour Through The Ages.
I'm sort of interested in some of the classic space marines, but are they actually complete/accurate to how they were? I can't quite figure out whether or not those specific miniatures were meant to have a banner pole or which classic backpack or bolter pattern they would have originally had.
Like looking up the space wolf captain, i can see examples of some with a banner pole, but also some without?
Four of the classic Captains, to shown with the cloak backpack, and Armour Through The Ages.
I'm sort of interested in some of the classic space marines, but are they actually complete/accurate to how they were? I can't quite figure out whether or not those specific miniatures were meant to have a banner pole or which classic backpack or bolter pattern they would have originally had.
Like looking up the space wolf captain, i can see examples of some with a banner pole, but also some without?
Dark Angel and Blood Angel captain are original with the cloaked backpack. Space Wolve and Ultramarine had that too, but are shown with a new plastic backpack.
The Armour through the Ages marines don't have their original Rogue Trader backpack. Three of them were metal-plastic hybrid models, but don't have the arms/pauldrons/bolter from that time.
Four of the classic Captains, to shown with the cloak backpack, and Armour Through The Ages.
I'm sort of interested in some of the classic space marines, but are they actually complete/accurate to how they were? I can't quite figure out whether or not those specific miniatures were meant to have a banner pole or which classic backpack or bolter pattern they would have originally had.
Like looking up the space wolf captain, i can see examples of some with a banner pole, but also some without?
Dark Angel and Blood Angel captain are original with the cloaked backpack. Space Wolve and Ultramarine had that too, but are shown with a new plastic backpack.
The Armour through the Ages marines don't have their original Rogue Trader backpack. Three of them were metal-plastic hybrid models, but don't have the arms/pauldrons/bolter from that time.
The armour through the ages looks like it doesn't have the original versions from back in rogue trader, but it seems they have what they had when they were available in the 2000s at least.
Four of the classic Captains, to shown with the cloak backpack, and Armour Through The Ages.
I'm sort of interested in some of the classic space marines, but are they actually complete/accurate to how they were? I can't quite figure out whether or not those specific miniatures were meant to have a banner pole or which classic backpack or bolter pattern they would have originally had.
Like looking up the space wolf captain, i can see examples of some with a banner pole, but also some without?
Dark Angel and Blood Angel captain are original with the cloaked backpack. Space Wolve and Ultramarine had that too, but are shown with a new plastic backpack.
The Armour through the Ages marines don't have their original Rogue Trader backpack. Three of them were metal-plastic hybrid models, but don't have the arms/pauldrons/bolter from that time.
The armour through the ages looks like it doesn't have the original versions from back in rogue trader, but it seems they have what they had when they were available in the 2000s at least.
Well, yes. It's the same photo they used in the webstore.
Ashiraya wrote: That MTO Terminator chaplain is GOAT material.
I wonder if they are making him in metal or resin? The blurb for that sections is "Following them is a set of three metal and resin characters in Terminator armour – a Captain, Librarian, and Chaplain “
That chaplain was a frequent participant in the “what’s your favorite/best mini” threads. And for good reason.
Never picked him up when he was metal, was not going to when he was finecast. Sorry I missed him at the time, but not sure I will want to pay what they are asking for MTO, especially if he’s bundled.
Four of the classic Captains, to shown with the cloak backpack, and Armour Through The Ages.
Oh yeah, sweet! Armour of the Ages!
To top it all off, the beloved Armour Through the Ages set returns once more so you can add Space Marines in classic marks of armour to your collection. Each set contains five resin and plastic miniatures – one each in MkI, MkII, MkIII, MkIV, and MkV patterns of power armour.
Four of the classic Captains, to shown with the cloak backpack, and Armour Through The Ages.
Oh yeah, sweet! Armour of the Ages!
To top it all off, the beloved Armour Through the Ages set returns once more so you can add Space Marines in classic marks of armour to your collection. Each set contains five resin and plastic miniatures – one each in MkI, MkII, MkIII, MkIV, and MkV patterns of power armour.
Oh No! BBBBOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh. I missed that part.
I guess that makes it an easy decision not to get it.
Snord wrote: Nostalgia for a 30 year old edition isn’t going to attract that many new players.
* Gestures vaguely in the direction of all the people buying TOW, HH, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and other GW ranges based heavily on 90's teenage nostalgia *
Also gestures at all the new players to those games who weren't alive/merely toddlers back then who have no nostalgia for those earlier systems/editions. The local shops have a lot of early 30s & younger players of all those games. They buy the starter boxes for the same reason we do: More/New models at a degree of savings.
Overread wrote: Won't that be foregeworld resin not finecast?
That would be good to know. Given Finecast's deserved bad reputation and GW's willingness to convert some old Warhammer Fantasy metals to Forge World resin, it seems like the thing they would do rather than deal with all the bad casts Finecast produces.
Would be nice of them to say, even if I suspect they'd rather not mention Finecast anymore and have people forget about it as quickly as possible.
GW has been pretty good at removing finecast as of late - there's 7 characters and models with it in 40K and in AoS there's only a similar handful of Ogre Mawtribes models.
Otherwise its basically all gone from those ranges even when GW pulled most (except 1) hero models from Necrons without replacement so far.
Lord of the Rings has a lot more (50odd ) but then again its not the main-line brand and is running on an entirely different release and development system.
So I wouldn't expect to ever see any new finecast from GW for 40K-AoS lines at all.
Overread wrote: Won't that be foregeworld resin not finecast?
I don't recall that ever happening for a 40K MTO to be honest.
It would be nice if it did given the state of Finecast, and the new FW resin is good. But I am not convinced they are cutting new moulds for MTO stuff, which is why it's so samey.
Given Finecast's deserved bad reputation and GW's willingness to convert some old Warhammer Fantasy metals to Forge World resin,
Was that not only the War Wagon (which I assume was a special case because of how massive it was?). Can't think of any other Old World release that was converted from metal to FW resin (obviously a lot got ported over to Finecast back in the dark times but they all seem to have been re-released in metal for TOW).
Given Finecast's deserved bad reputation and GW's willingness to convert some old Warhammer Fantasy metals to Forge World resin,
Was that not only the War Wagon (which I assume was a special case because of how massive it was?). Can't think of any other Old World release that was converted from metal to FW resin (obviously a lot got ported over to Finecast back in the dark times but they all seem to have been re-released in metal for TOW).
The Casket of Souls is a kit that started out in metal with the original Tomb Kings release, got converted to Finecast right away and got a remastered resin release with The Old World.
I don't think it was the only model to get that treatment. I could be wrong of course as I'm going off of memory from a couple of years ago and, frankly, don't pay too much attention outside of Tomb Kings, but I thought there's more than one, especially larger model that originally was but didn't return in metal.
Those moves to FW resin have all been because the game system (TOW) has moved to SGS (which was FW) though. We've never seen a main studio kit move when the game system remains a main studio game. As far as it appears the main studio does not have access to the new FW resin casting process.
With Kill team giving new Raptors, Iron Warriors giving Mutilators back and a new Defiler, will the next CSM core codex be just a character release, or will that be where Bikers and Obliterators come out?
These guys were the better concept tho, if limited by the style and technology of 1998
The old Obliterators were really cool as long as you did not assemble them. I used bodies and arms for some nice kitbashs and conversions with other (mostly marine) bits.
With Kill team giving new Raptors, Iron Warriors giving Mutilators back and a new Defiler, will the next CSM core codex be just a character release, or will that be where Bikers and Obliterators come out?
The current Obliterators are from 2019, so I'm not sure we'd see them refreshed for a awhile yet - maybe 12th or 13th edition.
With Kill team giving new Raptors, Iron Warriors giving Mutilators back and a new Defiler, will the next CSM core codex be just a character release, or will that be where Bikers and Obliterators come out?
The current Obliterators are from 2019, so I'm not sure we'd see them refreshed for a awhile yet - maybe 12th or 13th edition.
The models are fine, but they are a pair of models on a shared sprue with a Venomcrawler. A new pack of 3 new poses like the new Muties and then they could have a unit size of anything from 2-6.
With Kill team giving new Raptors, Iron Warriors giving Mutilators back and a new Defiler, will the next CSM core codex be just a character release, or will that be where Bikers and Obliterators come out?
The current Obliterators are from 2019, so I'm not sure we'd see them refreshed for a awhile yet - maybe 12th or 13th edition.
The models are fine, but they are a pair of models on a shared sprue with a Venomcrawler. A new pack of 3 new poses like the new Muties and then they could have a unit size of anything from 2-6.
But then they'd need to do something with the venomcrawler, maybe even use the empty mount on top.
I meant they could keep the Venomcrawler and 2 oblits sprue in production- then there would be 5 poses of oblits.
Looking at the Muties, looks like the semi standard 3 poses with loadout options each-
Tusky has a flail and blade or 2 claws (likely can mix and match) Tubeback has a chainfist and either a blade or claw, and Hornboy only shows a claw and drill.
MajorWesJanson wrote: With Kill team giving new Raptors, Iron Warriors giving Mutilators back and a new Defiler, will the next CSM core codex be just a character release, or will that be where Bikers and Obliterators come out?
Hopefully just a single character release - put the resources into a faction that needs some interest.
MajorWesJanson wrote: With Kill team giving new Raptors, Iron Warriors giving Mutilators back and a new Defiler, will the next CSM core codex be just a character release, or will that be where Bikers and Obliterators come out?
Hopefully just a single character release - put the resources into a faction that needs some interest.
Only a couple factions need major love right now as far as kits go. I would rather a bit better balance next edition between major releases and clampack only ones. Maybe a baseline of one unit/ vehicle kit and a character and see who needs more love from there.
I feel whelmed.
They certainly tie together with the modern scale and aesthetic the chaos range has been leaning into.
However, these feel more like mutilators-in-progress than full grown fleshmetal melee morphin' monster marines.
Same issue I have with oblit sculpts, they *don't push the daemonic aspect enough.
...but I was always gonna make my own regardless.
So how long until we see the new defilers, a week?
I think I know what’s bugging me. There’s too neat a definition between Armour, and Horrid Fleshy Blech-Blech.
Now, that could as ever be down to the paintjob. Certainly I think the one with what looks to be a speaker grill in its gob could have a more ambiguous paintjob on the cables.
With Kill team giving new Raptors, Iron Warriors giving Mutilators back and a new Defiler, will the next CSM core codex be just a character release, or will that be where Bikers and Obliterators come out?
The current Obliterators are from 2019, so I'm not sure we'd see them refreshed for a awhile yet - maybe 12th or 13th edition.
The models are fine, but they are a pair of models on a shared sprue with a Venomcrawler. A new pack of 3 new poses like the new Muties and then they could have a unit size of anything from 2-6.
Come now. You and I both know that if they put 3 in the box they'll make the unit size 3 or 6 and you can throw the 2 you already have right in the garbage thanks.
MajorWesJanson wrote: With Kill team giving new Raptors, Iron Warriors giving Mutilators back and a new Defiler, will the next CSM core codex be just a character release, or will that be where Bikers and Obliterators come out?
Hopefully just a single character release - put the resources into a faction that needs some interest.
Only a couple factions need major love right now as far as kits go. I would rather a bit better balance next edition between major releases and clampack only ones. Maybe a baseline of one unit/ vehicle kit and a character and see who needs more love from there.
Necrons needs a little mid sized release to tidy up the old destroyers. Nids arguably need a mid sized release to get the last of that 3rd-5th ed plastic rejuvenated.
Grey knights and drukhari need the most attention. I suspect custodes will get a decent wave to drive that 30/40k wedge in.
Chaos legions all need a healthy wave, if theyre lazy it can be updating the daemons and integrating them properly, though it still leaves the ranges a bit anaemic in places.
If not, daemons need to kinda exist. Agents needs a direction to go in.
I'd argue knights need something to happen to spark a little range diversity.
Orks will get a lot, marines of all.flavours will by proxy.
The rest either have a character or unit or two to update or are new and need range padding. Gsc for example.need either brood brothers fixing or a big wave.
A lot of 49k could stand for more than a clam pack, especially knowing marines will still get 4-5 big releases.
I kind of like the mutilators. Not to much fleshy parts. Would be a nice crew to hang around my terminator lord that incidentaly calls himself Meatgrinder.
Feels like GW is pulling out old designs that didn't pass the screening process with the mutilators. Someone designed them years ago when the Oblits were released, got the negative feedback and shelved these designs. Now they are saying "Well we already paid for the sculpts, might as well make them available".
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think I know what’s bugging me. There’s too neat a definition between Armour, and Horrid Fleshy Blech-Blech.
Now, that could as ever be down to the paintjob. Certainly I think the one with what looks to be a speaker grill in its gob could have a more ambiguous paintjob on the cables.
It could be addressed with better paintjob, but it's mostly the limitations of sculpts.
It's a disconnect between what the lore says technovirus/daemonic marines ought to be vs what we actually get model wise.
The backs of the obliterators with the teeth and the ammo coming out of their bodies is close....but then the actual guns are just regular GW-brand marine guns sticking out of shoulders and hands...instead of fantastical demonic weapons being their hands.
They don't have to go back to the 'we stuck random blades and stretched greenstuff over them' like the old muties did to get fleshmetal, but GW could lean into the marine becoming one with the armor theme, which they've already proved they can do with the leg plates for WE eightbound or the gun weapon on the daemon prince, or old metal DP where the armor is more organic and bending in ways static plates shouldn't.
These modern sculpts are static plates with puffy skin.
The mutilators are interesting to say the least. I like how the torso is very reminiscent of a mini-Hellbrute, but the weapons are pretty meh especially the stuck on chainswords.
I also think there's not enough flesh/metal merging on it, it's too cleanly armored.
I like the new models. Yea they could probably be a bit more "daemon-ish" but overall I think they are cool enough and certainly WAY better than the old sculpts. My only complaint so far about this release wave is............where are the bikes, lol?!?! They are the oldest CSM model by far, and I think one of the oldest kits left.
I think this is one of those where the camera angle is a bit off, paint job could be a bit better. Once people get their hands on them I think they'll look great.
Lord Damocles wrote: I sure am glad that the Mutilators can't alternately be built as Obliterators.
Given there's 3 and they want them to look fairly unique in terms of being armoured etc. I think a dual kit would have resulted in both looking a lot like "dude with bits tacked on" (more than they do already). On this one occasion I think it was the right choice not to dual box unless they were very creative or stuck to 2's.
Lord Damocles wrote: I sure am glad that the Mutilators can't alternately be built as Obliterators.
Given there's 3 and they want them to look fairly unique in terms of being armoured etc. I think a dual kit would have resulted in both looking a lot like "dude with bits tacked on" (more than they do already). On this one occasion I think it was the right choice not to dual box unless they were very creative or stuck to 2's.
Heaven forbid they put in an extra sprue to allow for more variation.
On the Mutilator/Obliterator issue. I can see why they'd want to keep costs down.
They always could have split the baby by making them a "generic body sprue", and then having a "mutilator sprue" and "Obliterator sprue" for the arms/weapons/heads. Feet, legs, torsos would be the same, but heads, shoulders, weapons unique.
At least it looks like the kit "officially" supports weapon swaps for variety; compare the three in Black Legion colours to the shot of the three in Iron Warriors livery.
Though there don't seem to be any head options.
With Kill team giving new Raptors, Iron Warriors giving Mutilators back and a new Defiler, will the next CSM core codex be just a character release, or will that be where Bikers and Obliterators come out?
The current Obliterators are from 2019, so I'm not sure we'd see them refreshed for a awhile yet - maybe 12th or 13th edition.
The models are fine, but they are a pair of models on a shared sprue with a Venomcrawler. A new pack of 3 new poses like the new Muties and then they could have a unit size of anything from 2-6.
Come now. You and I both know that if they put 3 in the box they'll make the unit size 3 or 6 and you can throw the 2 you already have right in the garbage thanks.
Lord Damocles wrote: I sure am glad that the Mutilators can't alternately be built as Obliterators.
Given there's 3 and they want them to look fairly unique in terms of being armoured etc. I think a dual kit would have resulted in both looking a lot like "dude with bits tacked on" (more than they do already). On this one occasion I think it was the right choice not to dual box unless they were very creative or stuck to 2's.
Heaven forbid they put in an extra sprue to allow for more variation.
Given that 50% of the mini would need swapping out, which I aren't sure they could do seamlessly without making them look even worse, yes, it's a good thing they didnt inflate the box cost making 2 units look like turd to force variation.
You've been here long enough to know that GW don't just "put an extra sprue in".
Yeah, those models are not good. At all. I'm hoping they at least start to explore some weird and wacky melee profiles with them. There are too many similar profiles in the game, so I'd love to see something like A2 S12 D5 weapons instead of just another power fist equivalent, chainsword equivalent, power weapon equivalent.
Billicus wrote: Guess it's impossible to make Mutilators that don't look completely gak. Maybe time to retire the concept.
I quite like them, but I'll still be disappointed as they almost certainly won't be usable for World Eaters, and they won't have any of the easy customisation options that could go on legion upgrade frames if GW ever decided to do something other than Ultramarines upgrade set #17.
Yeah I'm doubting that WE will get access to them, even though it wasn't that long since world eater mutilators were mentioned in a black library book.
There's certainly some room to distinguish them from 8B/X8B on the tabletop. Eightbound are fast and relatively squishy while mutilators would be much tankier. Also the current Eightbound datasheets are written as focused infantry OR vehicle killing roles, while fleshmetal weapons should be able to switch roles on the fly.
The problem with Oblit/Mutilators is (and always has been) that they don't lean hard enough into the body horror aspect of them. They're meant to be horrific fusions of flesh and metal and daemonic essence, and as such they should be incredibly off putting to look at. Repulsive even. Yet they never are.
Ideally you want to see flesh growing into armour plates and weapons being subsumed into a fleshy mass of arms/shoulders/wherever. The 3rd edition Oblits came closest to capturing the proper feeling for them, but they sculptor didn't go far enough and the flesh itself is a bit scattered, the 6th edition mutilators also almost captured the right feel. But those sculpts just generally aren't great.
The 8th ed Oblits and these new Muties are just slabs of armour over the weird flesh. There's very little actual fusion going on. They've ended up looking like some over roided marine that has just had some armour plates slapped on as protection.
I can't disagree. I know GW is capable of disturbing (the Infernal Enrapturess was a joy to paint, truly) so I don't know why they're holding back. Maybe CSM is meant to be a more palatable mainstream faction while Slaanesh has licence to bananas.
Snrub wrote: The problem with Oblit/Mutilators is (and always has been) that they don't lean hard enough into the body horror aspect of them. They're meant to be horrific fusions of flesh and metal and daemonic essence, and as such they should be incredibly off putting to look at. Repulsive even. Yet they never are.
Ideally you want to see flesh growing into armour plates and weapons being subsumed into a fleshy mass of arms/shoulders/wherever. The 3rd edition Oblits came closest to capturing the proper feeling for them, but they sculptor didn't go far enough and the flesh itself is a bit scattered, the 6th edition mutilators also almost captured the right feel. But those sculpts just generally aren't great.
The 8th ed Oblits and these new Muties are just slabs of armour over the weird flesh. There's very little actual fusion going on. They've ended up looking like some over roided marine that has just had some armour plates slapped on as protection.
Well put. And the end result looks blocky and clumsy, rather than intimidating.
Ashiraya wrote: I can't disagree. I know GW is capable of disturbing (the Infernal Enrapturess was a joy to paint, truly) so I don't know why they're holding back. Maybe CSM is meant to be a more palatable mainstream faction while Slaanesh has licence to bananas.
...please don't mention Slaanesh and bananas in the same sentence.
Is it possible that the (mostly) clean split between armour and mutation/flesh is a side effect of the CAD curse, as opposed to hand-sculpting?
Dysartes wrote: Is it possible that the (mostly) clean split between armour and mutation/flesh is a side effect of the CAD curse, as opposed to hand-sculpting?
The tools have nothing to do with this issue.
I'd wager it's a case of the unfortunate trend towards visual homogenisation of certain factions compounded by cleanly separated volumes being significantly easier to paint for the average GW consumer than continuous material transitions.
GW could have done Gal Vorbak in plastic. They just chose not to.
I agree. The hyper fixation on consistent design language across a range has strayed into homogenisation with a touch of flanderisation in my opinion. It’s stifling creativity.
Ashiraya wrote: I can't disagree. I know GW is capable of disturbing (the Infernal Enrapturess was a joy to paint, truly) so I don't know why they're holding back. Maybe CSM is meant to be a more palatable mainstream faction while Slaanesh has licence to bananas.
...please don't mention Slaanesh and bananas in the same sentence.
Is it possible that the (mostly) clean split between armour and mutation/flesh is a side effect of the CAD curse, as opposed to hand-sculpting?
No, absolutely not. GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.
No, absolutely not. GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.
Its a design decision.
Yup, GW has been using CAD sculpting for a long time. I remember when the plastic Carnifex was released and they had an entire article in White Dwarf about designing it in CAD.
I suspect they just knew the old kit isn't well liked and played it too safe on the replacement. There were almost certainly several concepts drawn up and its very possible that none of them crossed the uncanny valley this unit is trying to land in.
robbienw wrote: GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.
Its a design decision.
Only downside is that any CAD-sculpted fur looks like gak compared to the hand-sculpted stuff.
robbienw wrote: GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.
Its a design decision.
Only downside is that any CAD-sculpted fur looks like gak compared to the hand-sculpted stuff.
This is also a HIPS issue. It's really hard to do really good fur without undercuts.
robbienw wrote: GW has been CAD sculpting infantry units for over 15 years, vehicles even longer than that. You can do everything in CAD sculpting that can be done with hand sculpting and more.
Its a design decision.
Only downside is that any CAD-sculpted fur looks like gak compared to the hand-sculpted stuff.
This is also a HIPS issue. It's really hard to do really good fur without undercuts.
But only in part. The sausage fur on the Varagyr is resin.
I think the last traditional sculpt for 40k was either the Harlequin Solitaire or the Tech Priest Dominus.
The Giant was 2006 I think. I remember an article in White Dwarf talking about it being the last physical 3-up sculpt that was pantographed for mould cutting, with some commentary from Brian Nelson himself.
The nearest we've had was a rumour that Tyranids would also get a Red Terror model. Maybe that's related to the Prime's release, or it could be next edition.
Personally I don't see how either of them realistically fit into the known end of edition books from GW & current rumours. Either there's an extra book coming we haven't yet heard about, or the models tie into some other release like Kill Team.
twoseventwo wrote: What do people find to be goodGW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).
For my own tastes, I don't believe there are any properly good examples of this within GW's range. Nothing that really invokes an unsettling skin prickle or sense of unease. Which I have to imagine isn't necessarily easy to do like it can be with 2d art. So I certainly don't hold it against any sculptor if they can't give me the creeps. Vashtorr is, appropriately, possibly the best overall example of flesh/machine symbiosis. But I think he's more flesh/machine integration, rather then flesh merging or fusing into machine or vice/versa.
The backpacks on the current possessed quite good examples of flesh/machine fusion. And from memory, the old plastic possessed had some interesting bits in their kit.*
The chaos dreadnoughts also aren't half bad. Both multipart and DV versions.
But both the possessed and chaos dreadnoughts both largely suffer from the problem as the oblits and mutilators. It's just slabs of armour tacked on over warped flesh. No real interplay between them for the most part. And that's not to say I think any of the above models are bad. They just don't push the envelope enough.
As far as just weirdo fleshy machines go however, the Blight/Bloat drones are pretty cool. As are the Blight Haulers. I've long had a soft spot for the oft-maligned soul grinder.
That being said, I do think that GW do warping flesh quite well though. The Accursed Cultists are fething amazing. And, for an older kit, the chaos spawn still hold up as pretty freaky looking when you combine the right parts (but they can also look fething dumb as gak if you don't). The necromunda Malstrain genestealers are all top-tier freaks, with the Coalescence excelling therein. The Skaven brood terror is also just generally excellent and the hell pit abomination has a lovely quiet throwback to The Thing with its mass of rat heads. And as mentioned eariler in the thread, the infernal enrapturess and her human harp are also excellent.
*I actually really used to like both the Mhara Ghal and the Gal Vorbak as examples of good flesh/armour fusion. But then I had the chance last year to actually behold and hold them in the resin and was quite surprised to find that I didn't like them nearly as much as I had previously. They're quite a confused mess of surface textures and bits that almost seem tacked on or otherwise at odds with the rest of the sculpt. The Mhara Ghal especially is quite incoherent from a sculpting point of view. The sub-par FW paintjob actually does a lot of work hiding a lot of stuff.
Astmeister wrote: Is there already a rumour when the new tyranid prime with the lash whip will be released?
Left to release we have:
- xenos characters
- custodes box
- custodes wave
- 30k marine tanks
- mechanicum wave
- Red corsairs
- eldar
- other boxes for the campaign book
- bone reapers
- blood bowl stuffs
We then need to get iron warriors in. We can also extrapolate all the 40k bits drop before 11th which is likely early June.
Given the eldar and red corsairs need to be out before the eye of terror stuff, we know the eye of terror needs to come by May likely, I'd guess both corsairs end of feb/early march, xenos characters land late march, eye of terror bits in early/mid april so the 40k slate is fully shown and clean ready for the 11th release window.
twoseventwo wrote: What do people find to be goodGW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).
The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.
Gal Vorbak are a great infantry sized example.
Vashtorr is a good mid point between full on melding and the Mutilator approach.
twoseventwo wrote: What do people find to be goodGW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).
The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.
I would say it's the paint scheme more than anything. Different painters can make those models look great. I think adding gloss to the flesh is the trick.
twoseventwo wrote: What do people find to be goodGW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).
The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.
That's a good point. I wonder how these Mutilators (or Obliterators) would look if I painted them like my Hellbrute
I personally dont mind the Mutilators. Decent enough starting point for conversions. My fave CSM models by far have always been Gal Vorbak. I am of the mind that best looking Chaos forces are made by obsessive converting and kitbashing, same with Orks. In both factions cases, the GW stock models seem very bland and uninspired these days. Flanderisation is an apt description.
Anyone have an update on the MTO terminators? Or remember how many parts they come in to do the math?
GW wrote:
Contents:
– 1x Captain in Terminator armour
– 1x Librarian in Terminator armour
– 1x Chaplain in Terminator armour
This kit comprises 9 resin components, 5 metal components, and 3x Citadel 40mm Round Bases. These miniatures require assembly and are supplied unpainted – we recommend using Citadel Colour paints.
I suspect with 9 resin to 5 metal ratio, 2 of them are resin. But which one is metal?
twoseventwo wrote: What do people find to be goodGW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).
The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.
Not an official model but I do love this version of a Grotesque:
I really want that Eldar battle force, even though I haven't played 40K in 15 years.
I'm also very interested, but when it says "limited availability" it probably means "not something you can actually get but rather just an ad for upcoming models"
twoseventwo wrote: What do people find to be goodGW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).
The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.
Not an official model but I do love this version of a Grotesque:
That's a clone creature from the alchemists of dirz faction in confrontation if anyone wants to get some. I'm partial to their aesthetic, quite like the sentinels of danakil unit.
Latest valrak rumours for orks and some other bits:
Painted as goffs
Characters:
- warboss
- pain boy
- weird boy
- big boss nob
- nob with waaagh banner
Units:
- boyz (20) - notes they will be monopose even if they have options
- grots
- wartrakk
- gun emplacement walker thingy
Release date is apparently in June.
New knights model (he previously mentioned something between armiger and questoris in size) is the opposition for IW.
Cryptic remark he heard rumours about "fire and flame" which will blow peoples minds.
*His personal conjecture on price of the launch box, not a rumour,* is that it'll quite likely land at £180 if they feel generous but fears a £200 box.
Oguhmek wrote: About time that we get a plastic weirdboy. Dunno if we really need another painboy though?
No regular nobs, so they are going for some kind of command squad I guess?
There is precedent with the Council of the WAAAGH! for a previous 7th ed formation and it does seem like GW is in the mood right now in providing retinues for factions, given what we've seen for Huron for CSM, the entourage for Titus and other things.
It's not better than the old Deffy in my view, just... different. I dislike the bare middle section, looks like you'd easily cut it with your power sword there.
But I like they kept weapon options and added some god-specific head options, which is unfortunately rare with GW these days.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: It's not better than the old Deffy in my view, just... different. I dislike the bare middle section, looks like you'd easily cut it with your power sword there.
But I like they kept weapon options and added some god-specific head options, which is unfortunately rare with GW these days.
I do like this update. Mind you I also don't mind that ancient crab one either. But if your going to update a model, go to town on it. Looks like GW did that.
I like the look generally, but it suffers from Centurion-itis, in that where the flippety-flip do the weapon worky bits fit in the torso?
Maybe less of a worry as this is a daemon, and therefore physics is most definitely optional, but the previous version had a more generous space allowed for under the head to fit the battlecannon breech.
I reckon a Soulgrinder will just become the CC version of this now.
They're still not making the flesh/metal interface convincing, nor am I convinced flesh is necessary on a possessed machine in the first place, but it's certainly a more exciting model than the old Defiler and the Dinobots.
I'm digging this one! Lot less derp than the previous Defiler IMHO. Also like that its at least slightly modular, will no doubt make some conversions and that easier
twoseventwo wrote: What do people find to be goodGW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).
The answer to that question is that new Defiler. I think it looks great.
My particular favourite is the stretched flesh over the mechanical parts of that flail arm in the main photo. That looks spot on.
Additionally, the article implies at the end the rumoured Eye of Terror end of cycle book will be revealed next week.
Is that the last of these end of cycle reveals, or will there be another book or two to tide us over until 11th ed gets released?
Into the Maelstorm has new Detachment options for Chaos Space Marines, Aeldari, Orks, and Leagues of Votann. 500 Worlds has ones for Space Marines and Necrons.
Eye of Terror will probably do Iron Warrior detachments, could easily see some mix of Imperial Fists, Black Templars, both flavours of Knights and maybe the other cult marines in there.
Maybe another book with Tyranids, Tau, Guard, Genestealers?
I also like what I'm hearing about the new character generation rules in the upcoming Campaign book. I hope those will also be around when 11th hits, as would offer the sort of customization we took for granted with the older editions, even if only for the HQ
That's a very nice defiler update indeed! Can't remember the last time a new vehicle looked like it has this many options in the box, looks like a set you'd happily buy a couple of.
Would have preferred a more Brass Scorpion approach to Daemon Engine visuals. It's telling that the best looking image is the IW one, where the flesh is tonally matching the armour.
I suppose covering and/or replacing the fleshy bits might be a cool project down the line.
I want to paint these like my Hellbrute with the "flesh" painted like metal and some cabling done in organic paint schemes (as well as a metric tone of hazard stripes). Similar to how I painted my chaos spawn:
This could almost get me to work on my Iron Warriors again
EDIT: added a pic, fixed some broken italicization.
The new defiler is ok, but I don't like the weird flail claw thing. It looks...wrong. Like, how does it even work?
Fortunately, you don't NEED to have that and can use other build options, which do look better, imo.
I do like the biomechanical horror aspect of it. Very consistent with what chaos is supposed to look like.
It actually reminds of a strogg, funnily enough.
Quake / 40k crossover when?
Flinty wrote: I like the look generally, but it suffers from Centurion-itis, in that where the flippety-flip do the weapon worky bits fit in the torso?
Maybe less of a worry as this is a daemon, and therefore physics is most definitely optional, but the previous version had a more generous space allowed for under the head to fit the battlecannon breech.
I reckon a Soulgrinder will just become the CC version of this now.
Idea: flip the "breast"-plate by 180°, switch position of the chest gun and the head (or swap the head for something suitably gribbly) - should nicely dilute the "this is a big dude with crab legs" silhouette.
Not sure I like this. The fleshy bits on the Venomcrawler worked because the carapace was a rigid defined shape like an arthropod exoskeleton and the Obliterator fleshy bits are recognizably human suggesting a familiar skeletal structure inside. The Defiler looks like a bunch of legs and armored bits stuck into a wad of chewed bubblegum - I can't make out what, if any, the internal structure is supposed to be. Maybe a 360 view will help.
Flinty wrote: I like the look generally, but it suffers from Centurion-itis, in that where the flippety-flip do the weapon worky bits fit in the torso?
Maybe less of a worry as this is a daemon, and therefore physics is most definitely optional, but the previous version had a more generous space allowed for under the head to fit the battlecannon breech.
I reckon a Soulgrinder will just become the CC version of this now.
Idea: flip the "breast"-plate by 180°, switch position of the chest gun and the head (or swap the head for something suitably gribbly) - should nicely dilute the "this is a big dude with crab legs" silhouette.
Ooooh, that sounds cool. You would end up with something a bit more Exocrine, but it would definitely decouple the weapon breech from the neck
alternatively, move the chest weapon down to the thorax... although that might be appropriate for Slaaneshi defilers only. It make them even more aptly named...
loving the twin-las option and multiple god loadouts. Kind of hope they allow dual twin reaper autocannons - that will make it kind of like the AA variant that was added to Epic:Armageddon
Yeah, something is a little off for its shape silhouette, it gives me Hellpit Abombination vibes with how its profile is. I also think that the thin spindly waist leading to its torso isn't the greatest. Overall, not bad, but I think it could have done the fleshmetal part better than what it is currently.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, something is a little off for its shape silhouette, it gives me Hellpit Abombination vibes with how its profile is. I also think that the thin spindly waist leading to its torso isn't the greatest. Overall, not bad, but I think it could have done the fleshmetal part better than what it is currently.
You have just taken the first step on the way to the truth. All of the models in this layout, the defiler, the Hellpit abomination, and some others, are just echoes of the true evil. A subtle reminiscence of an eldritch form, that haunts the dreams of many a modeller. Countless bottles of glue have been wasted on trying to contain it, many a pin set in its festering plastic only to delay the inevitable for a couple of days. Gaze at the true shape of the destroyer - if you dare.
Hmm. I don't play CSM but I am tempted to get one of these.
Looks like left arm is flail, las cannon, or missiles, while right is lascannon, autocannon, or flamers. chest is plasma or demolisher cannon, and then light stubbers or flamers. And 6 heads, multiple carapace plates, 2+ poses. Amazing kit.
I think it looks super rad. Much improved over the original, just a super nasty/mean look to it. I really like the assembly options, and how they handled the head, that was what I was most worried about. Also it looks like the chest cannon is going to have different options as one looks like a plasma maybe then the traditional battle cannon on the Iron warriors one. Also the new scruge looks sooooooo cool
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, something is a little off for its shape silhouette, it gives me Hellpit Abombination vibes with how its profile is. I also think that the thin spindly waist leading to its torso isn't the greatest. Overall, not bad, but I think it could have done the fleshmetal part better than what it is currently.
You have just taken the first step on the way to the truth. All of the models in this layout, the defiler, the Hellpit abomination, and some others, are just echoes of the true evil. A subtle reminiscence of an eldritch form, that haunts the dreams of many a modeller. Countless bottles of glue have been wasted on trying to contain it, many a pin set in its festering plastic only to delay the inevitable for a couple of days. Gaze at the true shape of the destroyer - if you dare.
Spoiler:
And so, everything old is new again.
Oh you sweet summer child with ribbons in your hair. That was the second coming of that Dragon.
on the negative side:
- Battlecannon looks too stuby imo,
- the flesh bits were unnecessary, especially for a daemonengine without meat inside.
- No new Weapons? No Inferno lafette?
On the positive side:
- Legion and god specific.
- The pose overall looks great.
- Dual equal weapon is now a thing.
Overall.... i am not sure. Whilest the defiler was in line for an upgrade since ever, i'd personally would've prefered a more Decimator type upgrade in looks and some new toys that allow for a propper siege vehicle. Alas I guess it's fine.
That's a really good update. Any idea how big the base is? It'll probably cost a squillion euros but it might actually justify the price, it's a great model.
twoseventwo wrote: What do people find to be goodGW examples of machine/flesh monstrosities? I'm not sure I can think of many (the Dark Vengeance Helbrute perhaps).
The tendency for 'Eavy Metal painters to maintain very distinct colours for flesh and metal probably doesn't help their cause.
Not an official model but I do love this version of a Grotesque:
That's a clone creature from the alchemists of dirz faction in confrontation if anyone wants to get some. I'm partial to their aesthetic, quite like the sentinels of danakil unit.
Nice that it's available to all the Legions, but hopefully they don't have faction-locked loadouts for them, like the WE only being able to take melee arms or some gak.
How delightfully repulsive, love it. It fits in better now with the Venomcrawler, Helstaker and Vashtorr. I wonder if the Heldrake is going to be getting a more organic fleshy makeover?
I have to say, Chaos have gotten A LOT of love here. Huron, Red Corsairs, RC upgrade sprues, IW leader, IW upgrade sprues, mulilators, defiler. And not too long ago Raptors. About the only thing left on the bingo card is bikers.
I like some aspects of the new Defiler, but not the fleshy bits. I would have preferred twisted cabling and tubes, like the HR Giger art that inspired the original Chaos Marines.
Ashiraya wrote: Not any time soon. GW isn't doing much in the way of flyers of late, and besides, the Heldrake is a vastly, vastly newer kit.
Of course it could be argued that they don't really need to.
Only the Votaan & GSC don't have access to flyers atm. Everyone else has 1 or more in their rosters already or can ally some in. And that's not even counting any Legends flyer units
Of course the poor Helldrake could use better rules....
I think there's something creepy and cool about it only being the business end of the dragon, personally. Like a half dead, reanimated thing. Carrion. If they changed it to just a robot dragon I'd not be half as interested. Horses for courses though
I don't like that the Defiler looks so much like the various different elements of it are all copy-pasted from other models.
Missiles - Helbrute
Spikes - Venomcrawler
Exhausts - Forgefiend
Flamers - Helldrake
But none of it really looks like a Defiler has for the last quarter century...
Fleshy bits work for me. Proper unholy amalgam. Looks suitably tortured too. We know the Daemon inside wasn’t exactly a willing inhabitant, and the model to my eyes is suggestive of something inside straining to escape its confines.
I think, if I was anything like a good enough painter? I’d want to be painting runic script all over the squishy bits. Give the suggestion of extensive binding keeping the daemon lock up, and perhaps to help restrain it from killing everyone when it comes to ship it out.
Shakalooloo wrote: Nice that it's available to all the Legions, but hopefully they don't have faction-locked loadouts for them, like the WE only being able to take melee arms or some gak.
Nah, it'll have the same options but also get the standard WE reduced BS for Rapid Fire.
I like the new model. The fusion looks interesting. The leg joins no longer look like Happy Meal toy connections. They appear to have a semi-realistic mechanical function.
But I really don't look forward to the cost. The Daemon Prince, Heldrake, Maulerfiend, etc. being $89 does not make my expectations palatable. Especially as I would like one for several of the Chaos factions.
Spoiler:
Lord Damocles wrote: I don't like that the Defiler looks so much like the various different elements of it are all copy-pasted from other models. Missiles - Helbrute Spikes - Venomcrawler Exhausts - Forgefiend Flamers - Helldrake But none of it really looks like a Defiler has for the last quarter century...
Agree. That is a problem with 3D CAD modeling/sculpting. Duplicated parts are something the human eye can detect on a subliminal level. That's where a lot of Myminifactory & Cults stl designs fall down for me also. It makes sense to reuse assets that you've already spent design time to create. The exact duplication becomes obvious and gives that soulless feel. Particularly to those of us who have spent 25+ years kitbashing, to where we can spot the components. Using the same style and creating a new object would be a better artistic route, but a less efficient design time & cost.
The same issue pops up when a pose is simply mirrored. If the pose doesn't get some tweak, the mirror stands out.
The old style multipart marines let you create them with subtle changes to each model, despite the small range of motion allowed. Whether you intentionally made them different, or it happened organically, the result was the same. The brain processed them as being different poses, not cloned.
Similarly, look at some old metal sculpts (like Cadian officers) where they took a base model and changed up the heads or gear. If you had familiarity with one version, you will notice the deja vu of the others.
Honestly the shared elements don't bother me, the defiler predates the shared daemon engine design language by a looooong way so it was always the outlier.
Exact copies of components? eh, it's a bit annoying, but on the bright side it does make kitbashing easier
I really hope they resculpt the dinobots sometime soon because they really are the worst of the daemon engines, especially now
Charax wrote: Honestly the shared elements don't bother me, the defiler predates the shared daemon engine design language by a looooong way so it was always the outlier.
Exact copies of components? eh, it's a bit annoying, but on the bright side it does make kitbashing easier
I really hope they resculpt the dinobots sometime soon because they really are the worst of the daemon engines, especially now
I'm ok with shared design elements, it's not like the DarkMech are making every component they use a bespoke single time product. They probably have their lesser adepts/servitors/demons assembly line building missile launchers, cannons etc to put on their creations so those parts will look similar.
I think the dinobots have held up rather well considering they're now the oldest demon engines. I'm torn between wanting new sculpts and not wanting to pay more for refreshed minis.
Noticed that there's a chainsword in the new Jump Pack Corsair kit! That'll come in handy for my regular Corsairs. Thinking I want like 3 of these jump pack models for my KT Corsairs warband, preferably with ranged weapons like in the RT illustration (its OK if they dont have actual KT21 rules, they will be purely decorative, just like the team's Arvus Lander transport)
Hellebore wrote: The skyreavers are cool but insanely fragile with no real means of avoiding damage.
I can't see how they'll live long enough to accomplish much. Lovely models though.
Yeah, movement tricks are nice and all, but T3 5+ with nothing else is going to crumple to a stern gaze. They will need to rely on army synergy (like grenades from the new starfang) or strats.
Or just aggressive pricing. If priced low enough you can just trade up and not care if you die.
I wonder what kind of grenades the starfange is shooting out of it’s GL when not popping out hallucinogens? Same statline as the disintegrator? I wonder if there is a conscious decision to flatten the stats of multiple guns to simplify play? Like with Titus’ entourage were almost everything from that motley lot had just a few actual differences.
Don't know what I think about the Defiler. Seems to be in danger of crossing that uncanny valley where it moves from "miniature" to "toy". Although I think this is partly GW's extreme photo-friendly highlighting again.
The old kit sort became a legend, but I was never really a fan. So not bothered there.
Starfang Datasheet looks like it could go either way depending on points.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: When you say that? Can you share the datafax you mention, as right now I don’t think folk are particularly aware of what options the new kit has.
New faction packs on WarCom. Short version is no change to the ability or statline of the Vyper, but on the weapons:
* Must have a shuriken cannon or missile launcher underneath (invalidates all the twin catapult models)
* Must have either bright lance/scatter laser/starcannon up top (lost a couple of options)
Okay, I think they’ve done it again with the Orks. That freebooter list has a stratagem that gives Blast to any ork unit targeting infantry.
So that adds two shots to the humble shoota if they attack a 10-man unit? And you can have how many shootas?
Mr_Rose wrote: Okay, I think they’ve done it again with the Orks. That freebooter list has a stratagem that gives Blast to any ork unit targeting infantry.
So that adds two shots to the humble shoota if they attack a 10-man unit? And you can have how many shootas?
The issue is, damage is so low to begin with, the ending damage won't be great either.
Shootas have 2-3 shots normally, depending on range. Against a 10-man MEQ squad, 40 shots kills one Marine. If that's increased to 100 shots, it's still only two and a half dead Marines.
Against TEQ, hoo boy. 40 shots is less than a wound. And 100 is still under two wounds.
Adding SH1 increases that to 1.5 MEQ (40 shots), 4 MEQ (100 shots), 1 wound to a TEQ (40 shots), and almost one dead TEQ (100 shots).
However, Lootas with SH1...
Minimum hit roll is .38 hits per shot, at 6+ RR1s.
Max is .83 hits per shot, at 5+ RRAll. That's the equivalent of BS 2+.
A thought on the old vs new defiler aesthetics- the new one is a lot more techno-organic than the old design, but the old mechanical version could be reimagined as well, perhaps into a stalk tank or a 40K version of the stalker constructs.
Mr_Rose wrote: Okay, I think they’ve done it again with the Orks. That freebooter list has a stratagem that gives Blast to any ork unit targeting infantry.
So that adds two shots to the humble shoota if they attack a 10-man unit? And you can have how many shootas?
The issue is, damage is so low to begin with, the ending damage won't be great either.
Shootas have 2-3 shots normally, depending on range. Against a 10-man MEQ squad, 40 shots kills one Marine. If that's increased to 100 shots, it's still only two and a half dead Marines.
Against TEQ, hoo boy. 40 shots is less than a wound. And 100 is still under two wounds.
Adding SH1 increases that to 1.5 MEQ (40 shots), 4 MEQ (100 shots), 1 wound to a TEQ (40 shots), and almost one dead TEQ (100 shots).
However, Lootas with SH1...
Minimum hit roll is .38 hits per shot, at 6+ RR1s.
Max is .83 hits per shot, at 5+ RRAll. That's the equivalent of BS 2+.
It can target any Ork unit, and there are lots of transports available with nice size firing decks. Take a Trukk/Battlewagon/Gargantuan Squiggoth and fill it up with Tankbustas or Flash Gitz.
Also, a cheap Mek can buff everything shooting from the transport, and the detachment rule can easily give sustained hits on top. BS5+ Orks in vehicles would be shooting like they were BS3+
Also also, Boyz isn't a terrible idea for this strat - not for their guns but for a maxed out Weirdboy for when you run into some of the reasonably common power blob units doing the rounds. A 5 shot/sustained hits Eadbanger would make a mess of a Necron Warrior blob or the Khorne Berzerker Juggerlord, and if those units don't show up then Da Jump is still fine for lining up a charge later on.
So here is a little scale comparison graphic I made for my review of the new Red Corsair kits. Even without the tactical rock, the Raiders are definitely bigger than the Legionaries. Proportions are more akin to the Emperor's Children Tormentors but without the weird skinny legs. Pretty much Primaris eye level.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised to see GW quietly drop the Primaris/Firstborn lore within an edition or two. The whole "bigger and better" is down to just "better" now anyway, if Firstborn renegades are seeing eye to eye with Primaris.
Are they any instances of Primaris going renegade? It's not like going rogue is a common occurrence among Space Marines in general, and the Primaris were born yesterday, as far as the setting is concerned.
stahly wrote: So here is a little scale comparison graphic I made for my review of the new Red Corsair kits.
It really gives the impression that whenever they're designing another 'new' Space Marine that isn't Primaris, they don't have an actual guide/consistency for the size and proportions, they just make it up at the time and go "Eh, close enough".
Eh, the intention seems pretty clear - unify all 40k Marines. And the studio is consistently, I think, shifting the broad power armour range closer to Primaris scale and proportions on each release.
I feel like part of Chaos has always been their antiquated marine armour and styles. Primaris being corrupted makes sense and its surely has/will happen in the setting.
However it just feels "wrong" for it to become a standard thing and to make Chaos more "modern"
For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.
Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.
For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.
Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.
I guess if you really wanted to justify it, you could say that the primaris upgrade isn't actually that difficult to reverse-engineer or outright steal. I would still agree that scale-creep needs no justification, since many, many other model ranges have increased significantly in size without background justification.
It's an interesting feeling watching the "current" game of 40K move away from me as they upscale all the models to be incompatible with my existing miniatures and scenery. Slightly melancholic but also a bit of a relief that I can just stop caring.
What I do remember well is people on this forum (most of whom don't post any more for whatever reason) outright denying that there was scale creep or that the scale creep would continue or spread to other ranges.
Ah well. I hope the new bigger-sized 40K stays around for a long time and people can use their models for as long as I used my 2e models.
Da Boss wrote: It's an interesting feeling watching the "current" game of 40K move away from me as they upscale all the models to be incompatible with my existing miniatures and scenery. Slightly melancholic but also a bit of a relief that I can just stop caring.
What I do remember well is people on this forum (most of whom don't post any more for whatever reason) outright denying that there was scale creep or that the scale creep would continue or spread to other ranges.
Ah well. I hope the new bigger-sized 40K stays around for a long time and people can use their models for as long as I used my 2e models.
I mean in the end it's just a question of taste. I'm still using 3rd edition Plague Marines side by side with 8th ed Plague Marines just fine. At table view the larger 32mm bases did more to make the newer models appear bigger than their actual size, so if you put older models on 32mm it all still works for me.
The size difference between post 7th edition marines overall is overall very small in my view. Whether you take late 7th ed. Thousand Sons, HH Marines, CSM or Primaris, they're all about even, just like Marines from 2nd to 7th edition were. You have some outliers in characters, terminators and other special stuff, but power armoured marines are overall the same.
It's the 32mm bases and the spread-eagled poses all the models are in that forces you to use them that is the issue for me. I find them much less practical for play and they'd require me to redesign all of my terrain to accommodate the larger base size for standard infantry models. I'm not as bothere by height differences as I am base size bloat, and I'm annoyed at the design choice to have everyone power stancing to ensure you can't use smaller bases. Also the game design choices to make base size gameplay relevant when they know they're changing base sizes, forcing people to rebase when they could easily write the rules such that base size is irrelevant (lots of other games manage this, so it is certainly a choice). I just find it pretty hostile, like GW are telling me to move on by making continuing a massive pain in my arse when it doesn't have to be.
And like, alright, I get it. I'm an old fart and they want new blood and it's working great for them, clearly! The game and the minis are more popular than they ever were, obviously my tastes are old fashioned now and I'm stuck in my ways. But even when they brought back the Old World, which is a nostalgia product aimed basically directly at me, they still did ridiculous base size nonsense while also having base size be gameplay relevant. Argh. Why GW? Change bases and have the game be more element based or keep bases the same and have them be relevant!
And that's honestly fine. I'm 41, been playing since the 90s, it'd be weird honestly if the game continued to cater to me - GW have made their money on me already.
But sometimes I do look at stuff and think "Oh, cool, new plastic Sisters." and then realised they are all powerstancing on massive bases and sigh and move on.
Apologies for the minor derail - that scaling image just made me think of that!
Da Boss wrote: It's the 32mm bases and the spread-eagled poses all the models are in that forces you to use them that is the issue for me. I find them much less practical for play and they'd require me to redesign all of my terrain to accommodate the larger base size for standard infantry models. I'm not as bothere by height differences as I am base size bloat, and I'm annoyed at the design choice to have everyone power stancing to ensure you can't use smaller bases. Also the game design choices to make base size gameplay relevant when they know they're changing base sizes, forcing people to rebase when they could easily write the rules such that base size is irrelevant (lots of other games manage this, so it is certainly a choice). I just find it pretty hostile, like GW are telling me to move on by making continuing a massive pain in my arse when it doesn't have to be.
And like, alright, I get it. I'm an old fart and they want new blood and it's working great for them, clearly! The game and the minis are more popular than they ever were, obviously my tastes are old fashioned now and I'm stuck in my ways. But even when they brought back the Old World, which is a nostalgia product aimed basically directly at me, they still did ridiculous base size nonsense while also having base size be gameplay relevant. Argh. Why GW? Change bases and have the game be more element based or keep bases the same and have them be relevant!
And that's honestly fine. I'm 41, been playing since the 90s, it'd be weird honestly if the game continued to cater to me - GW have made their money on me already.
But sometimes I do look at stuff and think "Oh, cool, new plastic Sisters." and then realised they are all powerstancing on massive bases and sigh and move on.
Apologies for the minor derail - that scaling image just made me think of that!
I partly get that.
Personally my older Marines still continue to be on their 25mm and noone in my gaming group bats an eye, in fact it's the same for them. We try to be consistent within one squad, but within an army it's often quite the mix. Also, with GW increasing the base size on larger models as well (going from 40mm to 50mm on Chaos spawn for example) you'd actively have to track what they write on their page to know which base size might be the current one - and who in their right mind would do that? (Especially when GW themselves says every edition: Use the base your mini came with.)
Also, transporting a larger army with 32mm and larger bases sucks. It needs far more space than 25mm.
Having said all that: Minis on 32mm bases just look pretty nice. I don't know why really and I won't rebase anything (especially since many of my older 40K minis sit on sculpted resin bases) but seeing my newer Ork army on 32mm I'd have to admit it just looks better than with feet hanging out.
Honestly, I think the base size increase in TOW is less of an issue, for two reasons:
1, There were a lot of units which were a pain to rank up on the older base sizes, and which rank up easier on the newer bases.
2, Third parties have been doing movement trays which have a spacer element built in, so you could use your models on the smaller base size without needing to rebase them.
Nevelon wrote: I’d guess it’s not a thing in 11th. 10th has almost completely removed it.
The word Primaris only appears 20 times in the 220 pages of Codex Space Marines, and almost half of those instances are in two paragraphs on page 11 and some of the others are just explaining what kits were used in spotlighted kitbashes.
Dropping those paragraphs and just using "Ultima-founding" in a half dozen variant chapter descriptions would be a 3 minute editing job for the 11th ed Codex.
I guess if you really wanted to justify it, you could say that the primaris upgrade isn't actually that difficult to reverse-engineer or outright steal.
When Fabius got his hands on some Primaris, he outright states it would be easy to replicate but won't because it's inferior to his own work. Now a lot of that statement is justification to not just make Chaos Primaris, but the groundwork is there for having some Chaos apothecary figure it out.
stahly wrote: So here is a little scale comparison graphic I made for my review of the new Red Corsair kits. Even without the tactical rock, the Raiders are definitely bigger than the Legionaries. Proportions are more akin to the Emperor's Children Tormentors but without the weird skinny legs. Pretty much Primaris eye level.
Thank you, this is very helpful. And I am glad we finally have properly scaled chaos marines that are not dwarfed by the loyalists, it is just a shame that they didn't do the new HH marines and the relatively new las CSM revamp in this scale already.
For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.
Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.
Why? A hundred years is an awful long time, and whole chapters turning to Chaos has happened every now and again.
Primaris are not mentioned to be incorruptible the way for example Grey Knights are in any material I am aware of.
And these guys are still a step below Chosen in eliteness. 3W, yes, but much lower damage output.
For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.
Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.
Why? A hundred years is an awful long time, and whole chapters turning to Chaos has happened every now and again.
Primaris are not mentioned to be incorruptible the way for example Grey Knights are in any material I am aware of.
And these guys are still a step below Chosen in eliteness. 3W, yes, but much lower damage output.
Why would the 'reveal' of Chaos Primaris being in the form of upscaled non-Mk.X models which GW hasn't even hinted at being Primaris, rather than in literally any other form be bad? Reeeally..?
Would it even need a reveal? They're just Space Marines. With some physical improvements, sure, but why would they be anything special when it comes to corruption? We know that they are just as susceptible to geneseed flaws, for example, even though Cawl initially hoped otherwise.
I don't think it's a big deal. I am just speculating it's why they are bigger, since otherwise GW has been remarkably consistent about firstborn scale ever since the big CSM update. The new Grey Knights follow it (or rather, the one new Grey Knight...), the masses and masses of Heresy firstborn follow it. Exceptions have so far mainly been with cases like the Emperor's Children and some of the Death Guard, where the variation seems to deliberately indicate corruption (sinuous distended slender EC, bloated bulky DG) but here they are emphasised as uncorrupted.
chaos marines use stolen geneseed a lot iirc? presumably if they steal the geneseed from dead loyalist primaris marines, wouldn't the new Chaos marine created from said geneseed turn out as as primaris sized?
The Geneseed itself isn’t implanted. Rather, it’s used to culture/clone new organs.
Whilst I can’t back this up with a solid reference? Traitors (or at least Traitor Apothecaries) could well culture/clone the new organs. But they’d lack the knowledge of how to implant them.
And any surgery where you don’t know what you’re doing, let alone surgery as invasive as making a new Astartes, is super risky.
There’s also the hypno-indoctrination which helps the Marine regulate his new physiology as each implant is made. If you’re not completely sure what this is, or what it does? How can you do the hypno-indoctrination.
Not to mention you may have A Number 23 Gubbins, and a fair idea of where it goes. But not when it goes.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The Geneseed itself isn’t implanted. Rather, it’s used to culture/clone new organs.
Whilst I can’t back this up with a solid reference? Traitors (or at least Traitor Apothecaries) could well culture/clone the new organs. But they’d lack the knowledge of how to implant them.
And any surgery where you don’t know what you’re doing, let alone surgery as invasive as making a new Astartes, is super risky.
There’s also the hypno-indoctrination which helps the Marine regulate his new physiology as each implant is made. If you’re not completely sure what this is, or what it does? How can you do the hypno-indoctrination.
Not to mention you may have A Number 23 Gubbins, and a fair idea of where it goes. But not when it goes.
So about as accurate as Chaos sorcery, which is a roll of the dice Chaos marines are quite happy to risk!
Traitors definitely create new marines. Both in the infamously well known ways that don't bear repeating, and also just normally. A big chunk of the Night Lords omnibus is about attempting this. We also know they use lots of stolen geneseed, like Honsou who is a chimera of Iron Warrior/Imperial Fist.
Also, they simply wouldn't do hypno-indoctrination. Especially since most of the surviving heresy guys wouldn't have had it done to them.
And one more important bit: we do know about chaos primaris as well. The murder curse turned an entire crusade fleet, including primaris marines and sisters, to chaos. Only the custodes/grey knights amongst the fleet were immune.
Huron himself was having his apothecaries stealing gene seed from other chapters during the Badab Wars (Imperial Armory books). I believe it was the Salamanders that caught them red handed. So they definitely have no qualms about it.
I briefly seen this weekend in FB an image of a box set with these lizzies mercs as a unit... I was in a hurry so didn't check any further. I cant find it now but seems like the lack of news about it suggests its AI or something... Im really getting annoyed with that BS.
Would be cool to have a unit of those though.
It's not exactly a stretch to suppose a newly founded Primaris chapter has some flaw in their creation, combined with a specific corrupting event early in their existence that turns them to Chaos. There are plenty of possible reasons for Chaos Primaris and I don't think timeframe is a major problem.
From a narrative perspective it would be interesting. It would show that Cawl's creations are not as stable as he thinks, which lines up with them still having the flaws of their parent geneseed.
In the real world, we know GW will keep going with the scale creep whenever new models are released. They don't have to justify it, though I wouldn't mind some CSM models that aren't covered in baroque trim!
cole1114 wrote: Traitors definitely create new marines. Both in the infamously well known ways that don't bear repeating, and also just normally. A big chunk of the Night Lords omnibus is about attempting this. We also know they use lots of stolen geneseed, like Honsou who is a chimera of Iron Warrior/Imperial Fist.
Also, they simply wouldn't do hypno-indoctrination. Especially since most of the surviving heresy guys wouldn't have had it done to them.
And one more important bit: we do know about chaos primaris as well. The murder curse turned an entire crusade fleet, including primaris marines and sisters, to chaos. Only the custodes/grey knights amongst the fleet were immune.
You have to the hypno-indoctrination. Not for “The Emperor Is Great” reasons. But for regulating their new, enhanced physiology. For us regular smelly hoomans, regulating heartbeat, breathing, kidney and liver function and all those biological systems are autonomic. The result of a chain of evolution dating back millions upon millions of years, right from the very earliest and rudimentary forms of life.
You can’t just go bunging in new organs and have them work. Well. Actually. You probably could. You just wouldn’t live terribly long (ref not actually urban legends of idiots trying to swap out their Gentleman’s Excuse Me for something larger from another species).
Heck, even with organ donation? To prevent rejection you need as close a match as possible and immune suppression drugs.
On Sorcery? A calculated risk. Not always sufficiently calculated, sure. But Geneseed, especially Primaris Geneseed, is a stupendously rare resource. It’s not something you can really afford to risks with. It may even be the sort of resource of such value you’re genuinely better off trading to the likes of Fabius Bile, either for some other resource or for favours/work done.
I’ve long argued its rarity, and the strictly limited headcount allowed by the Codex Astartes and wider Imperium, is why Chapters have such rigorous recruitment. You’ve a strictly finite resource with which to make new Astartes. The other half, regular smelly hoomans, are ten a penny. So of course you’re fussy. You need to identify not only a potential recruit with the physicality to more likely survive the process, but of the right mindset to be malleable without being a moron.
Chaos Marines may face a harder time there. Not only is any gene seed not captured from fallen Loyalists more likely to be degraded and mutated, but if you’re recruiting from among mortal followers? So are they.
Hence, I’m of the opinion that getting hold of Primaris Geneseed is one thing. Knowing what, when and how of the new implants and the necessary hypno-indoctrination is quite another.
I can see Chaos or Renegade forces gathering it whenever the opportunity presents. And we know Geneseed is good for long term storage. But not, for now, really being able to do much with those stocks. Or at least the fancy Primaris Organs. Which is another element here. We know there are Chapters out there that have lost certain organs. But they still of course create new Astartes with the ones we do have. So we can’t rule out that captured Primaris Geneseed is used, but only to create Firstborn equivalents.
Wasteful? Yes. But Perhaps essential all the same when your option is leave a few organs in the fridge, or go without new recruits. And of course, by no means would this be a One Approach For All Thing.
Well established Chaos Forces (remnant Legions, Black Legion) may have sufficient strength and facilities to be storing it up until they figure it out, or a currently loyalist Apothecary with the know how turns traitor.
For all we know a lot of the Raiders might be actual Primaris themselves.
Narratively, a bunch of Primaris, who aren't mentioned in any written background, turning to Chaos within the less than a hundred years or so since they've existed, making their way to the Maelstrom despite travel supposedly being so difficult now, all changing their Mk.X armour for older designs, and then becoming more elite than the existing Red Corsairs, is even worse than the Raiders just being 'big 'cus deal with it'.
I guess if you really wanted to justify it, you could say that the primaris upgrade isn't actually that difficult to reverse-engineer or outright steal. I would still agree that scale-creep needs no justification, since many, many other model ranges have increased significantly in size without background justification.
You just open up the Space_Marine.ini file and change Primaris=0 to Primaris=1.
Overread wrote: I feel like part of Chaos has always been their antiquated marine armour and styles. Primaris being corrupted makes sense and its surely has/will happen in the setting.
However it just feels "wrong" for it to become a standard thing and to make Chaos more "modern"
Andy Chambers in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex stated the whole feel for the Chaos Space Marines was to seem archaic and anachronistic compared to the "modern" 40k era, a part of the distant past that just refused to go away. Meanwhile from the CSM perspective, they keep using their old patterns of armor and weapons because they were more rugged/easy to maintain and/or because they refused to move on mentally past the Heresy, and are still consumed with hatred for the Imperium.
NAVARRO wrote: I briefly seen this weekend in FB an image of a box set with these lizzies mercs as a unit... I was in a hurry so didn't check any further. I cant find it now but seems like the lack of news about it suggests its AI or something... Im really getting annoyed with that BS.
Would be cool to have a unit of those though.
I saw at image on FB.
It was just a fan made Photoshop.
(And at least the one I saw said so on the image tbf.)
