Vorian wrote: I don't think it's 3rd party stuff stopping it. That seems more like a myth invented by forum goers
We know they are thinking of allowing the other gangs to use all of the GS cult stuff. That's available already. There is no issue with 3rd party stuff.
They just aren't ready to do it yet. These things will come in good time. Necromunda is here for years and years and years. We're going to get loafs of cool stuff.
Then they can ask me to pay for it "in good time".
If you're incapable of gleaning any enjoyment out of the legacy gangs - or in the new style gangs in the months these rules are being released over then ignore it for a year and come back when it's all out.
Seems pretty bizarre to me, but if you really can't wait without taking it as a personal insult, then it sounds like it's going to save you much suffering!
Vorian wrote: If you're incapable of gleaning any enjoyment out of the legacy gangs - or in the new style gangs in the months these rules are being released over then ignore it for a year and come back when it's all out.
Seems pretty bizarre to me, but if you really can't wait without taking it as a personal insult, then it sounds like it's going to save you much suffering!
The material will still be spread out over four or five overpriced books rather than a single core book like it was in the past. That's not even taking into consideration the eventual Outlanders material which will no doubt be another 4 or 5 books, plus whatever else they are going to throw in after that. I don't know what it's priced where you are, but GW want $49 Australian for Gang War, which is a ballsy asking price for a book of missing material that is itself missing material.
Zethnar wrote: I don't know what it's priced where you are, but GW want $49 Australian for Gang War, which is a ballsy asking price for a book of missing material that is itself missing material.
+1
I already have 3D terrain and custom kitbashed gangs that I want to use. I don't mind the new models at all but I don't need them so the box set is not good value for me just for the rulebook. I was ready to buy Gang War but hearing it only has rules for using the two gangs in the box set makes that seem like very poor value as well since I'd presumably be paying $50 for a few pages of rules on LOS and fall damage.
I would happily pay for a full standalone rulebook and I'd pay for a campaign supplement covering all the gangs. I have money ready to give to GW for new Necromunda but they've somehow structured this release in a way that there's nothing compelling for me to buy.
I would encourage those who are disappointed by the release structure to contact GW directly.
It is worth pointing out that you can buy a bloodbowl bundle of the core rules, deathzone season 1 and 2 for £20.($42 Australia. dollars)
The core rules are not available physically at all and the two books are £15 each.
I know digital is not ideal for everyone but it may be worth waiting to see what (if any) digital releases come out for Necromunda.
I would happily pay for a full standalone rulebook and I'd pay for a campaign supplement covering all the gangs. I have money ready to give to GW for new Necromunda but they've somehow structured this release in a way that there's nothing compelling for me to buy.
My sentiments exactly.
I have looked at it and looked at it again and I cant justify buying 1/2 of the rules and than a book with 1/4 of the rules and then wait for more rules to be released and stand alone card sets and then on top of it all I still cant get everything because of 'limited edition gang tactics cards'.
The shock whip took up 3 arm space on the sprue while looking awkwardly unnatural so the model can fit in tight corridor. I'd prefer they went with the Power Axe like one of the gal from the concept art.
Disappointed with how the models are on the sprue, I'd assumed we'd be getting seperately torsos and legs but no, all one, so every plastic gang is going to have duplicated poses bar the arms and head.
I can't quite put my finger on why, but I'll be skipping this one , which I figure is the best way to show dislike for how it's been approached. If I could buy rules and a gang, and gang war was mixed into the book, then sure I would.
Vorian wrote: If you're incapable of gleaning any enjoyment out of the legacy gangs - or in the new style gangs in the months these rules are being released over then ignore it for a year and come back when it's all out.
Seems pretty bizarre to me, but if you really can't wait without taking it as a personal insult, then it sounds like it's going to save you much suffering!
The material will still be spread out over four or five overpriced books rather than a single core book like it was in the past. That's not even taking into consideration the eventual Outlanders material which will no doubt be another 4 or 5 books, plus whatever else they are going to throw in after that. I don't know what it's priced where you are, but GW want $49 Australian for Gang War, which is a ballsy asking price for a book of missing material that is itself missing material.
Sure, price is of course a personal thing. Some people will see it as too expensive (and obviously you guys are always getting screwed).
For me I think the core box and gang wars will be £93 and I'll pay £74.40 which I don't think is too bad. Obviously Necromunda is my favorite game and I've been waiting a decade so I probably value it higher than the average person.
Going forward, will I pay £14.40 for things like a decent bunch of scenarios and expansions to the rules? Probably, if they are once or twice a year, rather than with every gang.
If not, I'll learn the rules from places like this, it's not like I won't know pretty much every rule in gang war before it arrives :p
When you consider that you need one copy of the rules per group (if that) and then each person is away and playing with an investment of £20 it's actually a very cheap game to get in to.
When asked about digital rules on WHTV, Andy Hoare said he doesn’t know because it’s not his department, but he imagined they would be digital as well. So hopefully people who don’t want the core box don’t have to buy it just for the rules.
Got Underhive, Gang Wars and a box of 25mm bases preordered. The latter for some converted gangers made of Dark Vengeance Cultists. After getting this shipment and building these gangs, GSC Hybrids will probably be my next purchase.
Ordered Under hive, the two cards packs and the gang wars. Only preorder exclusive bundles I could find included dice, the novel collection and extra copies of both gangs which I don’t really need at the moment (may reconsider once the extra weapon spru is released).
Got underhive and gangwar, 1 of each gang for conversions, both sets of dice and cards. Happy days. Very nearly bought a load of ttcombat hive buildings but decided I should do a bit of research before I committed to my terrain.
There are neutral cards in both of the gang packs.
Do we know if the neutral cards are the same? In other words, are the neutral cards in the Goliath pack the same as the neutral cards in the Escher pack?
Geifer wrote: What if they don't have the old weapons either? Want a lascannon? Better play Delaque. Plasma cannon? Van Saar? Escher? And so forth.
The rules PDF will say that, I’m sure. However I don’t know anyone that would refuse to allow a house-rule to let me mix things up. The only problems will be models converted with weapons that no miniature had - which only means power fists, needle weapons and webbers.
67€ for an import copy. Mhm. My first WD had a cover with Goliath artwork and covered Necro coming out in Germany. So it'd be fitting to get it and never buy more GW until my backlog pile is gone (yeah, sure...).
I was excited for this release and now I am not. At the rate they seem to be aiming to release models, maybe I should come back in 3 years?
GW seems to be learning from the video game industry about breaking products up to maximize their return. The packs of mixed cards (gang and non-gang specific in the same pack) leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Same with spreading the rules over a series of books.
Ordering through the online store did have an exclusive tactics card but apparently wasn’t added in time for those who ordered quickly and sold out pretty quickly.
Aeneades wrote: Ordering through the online store did have an exclusive tactics card but apparently wasn’t added in time for those who ordered quickly and sold out pretty quickly.
Still hyped over Necromunda - including all the changes made.
I have no problem with GW drip-feeding us stuff - and find the "day one DLC" comments both strange and lacking insight regarding the need for a company to make money. Either everybody needs to pay more for a complete base game (leading to fewer sold games - and a need for an even higher price) or the ones that like the game pays more - for additional content.
Also, legacy lists with rules for all gangs, chainswords and heavy stubbers will soon be availiable *for free*. Cannot see the problem.
I ordered one of everything Necromunda-related (and also all new releases for Tyranids and terrain plus the Blanche card deck) at my FLGS.
I really want to get into this but am having trouble with the price, particular it I need the expansion to play it with anything other than card board terrain. Also I strongly dislike the Escher high heel thing, but hey I suppose it is a integral part of their look.
I am however loving the Goliath stuff. Are we to assume that Genestealer Cults will be in this? That would be a strong motivation for me to commit.
Rules summary sheet is on the game website. Looks very, very good. A whole bunch of clearly defined actions, down to pushing a button on a console or opening a door. Impressed.
lord_blackfang wrote: Rules summary sheet is on the game website. Looks very, very good. A whole bunch of clearly defined actions, down to pushing a button on a console or opening a door. Impressed.
I just want to fire flamers through ductways. Those pesky Genestealer Cultists and Ratskins are gonna get roasted!
Strombones wrote: I really want to get into this but am having trouble with the price, particular it I need the expansion to play it with anything other than card board terrain. Also I strongly dislike the Escher high heel thing, but hey I suppose it is a integral part of their look.
I am however loving the Goliath stuff. Are we to assume that Genestealer Cults will be in this? That would be a strong motivation for me to commit.
Andy Hoare said on WHTV that there’s a very good chance for Genestealer Cults. They already have fitting models after all.
Strombones wrote: I really want to get into this but am having trouble with the price, particular it I need the expansion to play it with anything other than card board terrain. Also I strongly dislike the Escher high heel thing, but hey I suppose it is a integral part of their look.
I am however loving the Goliath stuff. Are we to assume that Genestealer Cults will be in this? That would be a strong motivation for me to commit.
Here are 3 options for Genestealer Cults:
1) Wait for official rules, play them fully legal.
2) Wait for (or create yourself) fan-made rules (this has already been done 15 years ago with previous versions)
3) Use Genestealer Cults models with the rules of some other gang
By all the 40k/GW models out there, Genestealer Cultists and Chaos Cultists are superb for Necromunda. There are almost no other autopistols, autoguns and heavy stubbers out there!
Yeah good point on the house rules. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to do, particularly considering the guys I play with play lots of Homebrew rules anyhow.
Who knows, maybe the Escher stuff will grow on me. Could always sell it too. Ok think I'll commit.
Strombones wrote: I really want to get into this but am having trouble with the price, particular it I need the expansion to play it with anything other than card board terrain. Also I strongly dislike the Escher high heel thing, but hey I suppose it is a integral part of their look.
I am however loving the Goliath stuff. Are we to assume that Genestealer Cults will be in this? That would be a strong motivation for me to commit.
Here are 3 options for Genestealer Cults:
1) Wait for official rules, play them fully legal.
2) Wait for (or create yourself) fan-made rules (this has already been done 15 years ago with previous versions)
3) Use Genestealer Cults models with the rules of some other gang
By all the 40k/GW models out there, Genestealer Cultists and Chaos Cultists are superb for Necromunda. There are almost no other autopistols, autoguns and heavy stubbers out there!
From the leeked tradeing post page Heavy Stubbers aren't avilable in the current rules. The only "generic" heavy/special weapons we get are Grenade Launchers and the plasma pistol if you count that.
Oh, this is nice; Leaders and Champions have a Nerve roll bubble (12" for leaders, 6" for champs) where other fighters auto-pass, but only if the leader/champ passes first. Better still, a champion can use the boss's bubble themselves! So with proper positioning and a decent Cool on your leader, you can cover most of the board and keep the gang going even if you technically bottle it…
Strombones wrote: Also I strongly dislike the Escher high heel thing, but hey I suppose it is a integral part of their look.
I have every intention of remodelling the feet to remove the high heels...
I don´t understand the utter disdain for a type of female footwear. They are just kinky shoes and won´t harm you in any way.
What are you saying about FEMALE footwear? I have here pics of a classic Goliath Gang that proves you wrong:
Spoiler:
Hmm, not enough roided muscle on these dudettes to pass for Goliaths. I guess you made a mistake there. Those people in the pic are going to be the new AOS Daemonettes.
Prordered at the local store. They had their prerelease copy out last night. Models look pretty sweet, boards are nice. Looking forward to mashing the models into the collection. Diggas, =][= goons/gals, pit slaves. Will see about Gang War later.
youwashock wrote: Prordered at the local store. They had their prerelease copy out last night. Models look pretty sweet, boards are nice. Looking forward to mashing the models into the collection. Diggas, =][= goons/gals, pit slaves. Will see about Gang War later.
Aye. I went for the box and a load of terrain I'd been planning to buy regardless as the models are solid and have many uses, but I'm ignoring the rules stuff until something approaching a whole functional game is available not the stripped-down "vertical slice" version they're asking money for atm.
Yodhrin wrote: ...but I'm ignoring the rules stuff until something approaching a whole functional game is available not the stripped-down "vertical slice" version they're asking money for atm.
That would be in the Gang War book which is available at the same time.
Yodhrin wrote: ...but I'm ignoring the rules stuff until something approaching a whole functional game is available not the stripped-down "vertical slice" version they're asking money for atm.
That would be in the Gang War book which is available at the same time.
Except, as I and numerous other have already gone over in this thread, Gang War is missing big chunks of stuff that should be in it. If they put out all the missing stuff next weekend, I'll buy the rest of the rules then, but I won't pay for a product that's had core content stripped out because of GW's irrational paranoia about bitz sellers or whatever nonsense is motivating them.
Seriously, GW are trying to sell people a book of rules in the 40K setting that doesn't include fething chainswords and folk are defending that. This really is the worst timeline.
Hm, many good things are apparent in the Advanced rules section; loot crates can be busted open and maybe turn into ammo caches, which can be used mid game to add 2 to your ammo rolls and allow you to reload scarse trait weapons.
Booby traps can be deactivated (or set off prematurely) by shooting them if you spot them, of course.
You can run out of ammo for a pistol used in close combat (finally!) plus you max out at 1 pistol shot per close combat…
The general design is a massive improvement too; new toys generally come with their own unique special action type which slots easily into the established action economy so the whole system is pretty simple and slick but also highly detailed and easy to extend.
Strombones wrote: Also I strongly dislike the Escher high heel thing, but hey I suppose it is a integral part of their look.
I have every intention of remodelling the feet to remove the high heels...
I don´t understand the utter disdain for a type of female footwear. They are just kinky shoes and won´t harm you in any way.
I have no issue with combat heels I play Nomads in infinity but these are just bad they throw the look of the whole model off.
They screw the proportions up when looking at he model from the front and look like hooves, which is probably a good copy of Blanche's scribbles.
Well here's a Cadian and Cultist next to my version of the same Leader spoilered in my previous post (apologies for the various stages of unpaintedness!) so you can get an idea
nice big bundle all pre-ordered form my flgs (well..... the only store in South Korea that actually stocks GW) Game, Gangwar and the two decks of cards. And a butt...painting handle bcs why not!! Surprisingly enough the prices here are cheaper than in Britain?!?!!! Not massively cheaper but fro the whole lot think I saved a tenner or so. Cant wait to get stuck in. Love where this is going. From the cramped tunnels of the underhive to the buildings, walkways and gantries of hivecity. Planning on runing the 2-D and 3-D setups concurrently as multipart scenarios. Roll on the 24th
Vorian wrote: Well here's a Cadian and Cultist next to my version of the same Leader spoilered in my previous post (apologies for the various stages of unpaintedness!) so you can get an idea
By looking at this and the pic posted earlier, it is pretty easy to conclude that the new Necromunda minis are bigger than the Genestealer Cultists and Cadians. I said that this was the case when we saw the first pics.
Goliath I get, maybe but ugh, Genestealer cults will look like they are made up of 5-foot tall men compared to Echer gangers. Must be that Genestealers only infect the stunted men from House Echer on Necromunda.
I would be very grateful if someone could post the measurments of the bulkheads in the box. I am building some necromunda/zone mortalis terrain from foamcore at the moment.
Whilst on general level I'm fine with the idea of the models not being able to swap weapons (I don't want to alter my models once finished anyway), I'm a bit perplexed about how it will interact with the starting weapon restrictions and the trading post. Juves have very limited choice of starting weapons; does that mean they're stuck with those forever, even when they level up and stop being juves? How about the trading post? Can I buy stuff from there when initially equipping my starting gang?
Going to wait on this one, very excited but he terrain that comes in the core box is lack luster and I am not interested in either of the gangs so with only half the rules the value just isn’t there for me.
I will wait for the core rules to be released separately or eBay it but given the iffy value in the box the rule book might be going for a lot for people to make their investment back on breaking the core set up.
They'll probably be in scale with Tempestus Scions and DV chaos cultists then as they are both noticeably larger than Cadians, GS cultists and Admech.
It's a bit frustrating how GWs scale oscillates. With the GS cultist and Admech releases they seemed to have dialled back the scale creep but these are much bigger again. It's going to limit what other kits they can be kitbashed with which is a shame.
AegisGrimm wrote: Goliath I get, maybe but ugh, Genestealer cults will look like they are made up of 5-foot tall men compared to Echer gangers. Must be that Genestealers only infect the stunted men from House Echer on Necromunda.
You could also view it in another way. House Escher consists of fierce amazon warrior women. While I have no info about their actual physical size in Necromunda, amazons in fantasy settings like AD&D were depicted as quite tall:
They are even bigger with their beloved tactical high-heels. Remember this is a fictional setting and you can´t compare women that you encounter in your daily life with these valkyries. They are utterly fantastic like orks and elves.
Crimson wrote: Whilst on general level I'm fine with the idea of the models not being able to swap weapons (I don't want to alter my models once finished anyway), I'm a bit perplexed about how it will interact with the starting weapon restrictions and the trading post. Juves have very limited choice of starting weapons; does that mean they're stuck with those forever, even when they level up and stop being juves? How about the trading post? Can I buy stuff from there when initially equipping my starting gang?
Gangers can’t swap weapons. Juves, specialists, champions, and leaders can. Note, though, that they swap between “load-outs” of up to three weapons plus gear, which are each supposed to have a separate card. Also, if a crew is being randomly selected, you also randomly select the load-out of fighters that have multiples.
Again that’s a cue from Mordheim, if memory serves.
Your Henchmen couldn’t take different equipment from their starting bundle. So three Halberdmen would always fight with Halberds.
For characters, they could swap equipment between games, but without specific skills, couldn’t take any not available at creation (so an Elf couldn’t take Blackpowder without gaining a skill, the name of which eludes me).
I kind of like that. It can help prevent cheap options being taken to bulk out the Gang, only to be upgraded as soon as funds allow.
Crimson wrote: Whilst on general level I'm fine with the idea of the models not being able to swap weapons (I don't want to alter my models once finished anyway), I'm a bit perplexed about how it will interact with the starting weapon restrictions and the trading post. Juves have very limited choice of starting weapons; does that mean they're stuck with those forever, even when they level up and stop being juves? How about the trading post? Can I buy stuff from there when initially equipping my starting gang?
Gangers can’t swap weapons. Juves, specialists, champions, and leaders can. Note, though, that they swap between “load-outs” of up to three weapons plus gear, which are each supposed to have a separate card. Also, if a crew is being randomly selected, you also randomly select the load-out of fighters that have multiples.
Right. But the original loadouts are still 'saved' and you can't get rid off them? So even when your juve has been levelled to be the mightiest champion of the Underhive, geared to max, in scenarios with random crew selection, there is a chance she'll appear with just her laspistol and nothing more? Having these 'loadouts' seems like a huge liability; it sounds to me that you should give your champions and the leader the gear you want them to have from the get go, as there is a chance they'll end up using that gear anyway. Also, the trading post; can you buy starter gear from there? Because if you can't the regular gangers can never have trading post gear...
AegisGrimm wrote: Goliath I get, maybe but ugh, Genestealer cults will look like they are made up of 5-foot tall men compared to Echer gangers. Must be that Genestealers only infect the stunted men from House Echer on Necromunda.
Actually it's been said in the background that Genestealer hybrids have a tendency to be heavy set and bald.
House Escher is the House that historically dealt most with pharmaceuticals and chemicals so maybe the women got taller in the process, just as the men got negatively affected.
Finally, the likely malnutrition and high stress environment of the underhive probably would stunt growth.
plessiez wrote: They'll probably be in scale with Tempestus Scions and DV chaos cultists then as they are both noticeably larger than Cadians, GS cultists and Admech.
It's a bit frustrating how GWs scale oscillates. With the GS cultist and Admech releases they seemed to have dialled back the scale creep but these are much bigger again. It's going to limit what other kits they can be kitbashed with which is a shame.
Andy Hoare has said the scale of the Necromunda figs is the same as all modern plastics. Goliaths are supposed to be bigger than Space Marines and the Escher are wearing foot-long heels, so it's not a surprise that they're taller.
plessiez wrote: They'll probably be in scale with Tempestus Scions and DV chaos cultists then as they are both noticeably larger than Cadians, GS cultists and Admech.
It's a bit frustrating how GWs scale oscillates. With the GS cultist and Admech releases they seemed to have dialled back the scale creep but these are much bigger again. It's going to limit what other kits they can be kitbashed with which is a shame.
Andy Hoare has said the scale of the Necromunda figs is the same as all modern plastics. Goliaths are supposed to be bigger than Space Marines and the Escher are wearing foot-long heels, so it's not a surprise that they're taller.
I don't think the Escher height can be explained by the heels alone, they're crazy tall even without them.
plessiez wrote: They'll probably be in scale with Tempestus Scions and DV chaos cultists then as they are both noticeably larger than Cadians, GS cultists and Admech.
It's a bit frustrating how GWs scale oscillates. With the GS cultist and Admech releases they seemed to have dialled back the scale creep but these are much bigger again. It's going to limit what other kits they can be kitbashed with which is a shame.
Andy Hoare has said the scale of the Necromunda figs is the same as all modern plastics. Goliaths are supposed to be bigger than Space Marines and the Escher are wearing foot-long heels, so it's not a surprise that they're taller.
I don't think the Escher height can be explained by the heels alone, they're crazy tall even without them.
I've only seen one comparison picure that took the heels into account, and they were only slightly taller than even the old Escher. Would like to see more though taken at the same time with lines denoting the start of the miniatures actual heels and not their shoes.
plessiez wrote: They'll probably be in scale with Tempestus Scions and DV chaos cultists then as they are both noticeably larger than Cadians, GS cultists and Admech.
It's a bit frustrating how GWs scale oscillates. With the GS cultist and Admech releases they seemed to have dialled back the scale creep but these are much bigger again. It's going to limit what other kits they can be kitbashed with which is a shame.
Andy Hoare has said the scale of the Necromunda figs is the same as all modern plastics. Goliaths are supposed to be bigger than Space Marines and the Escher are wearing foot-long heels, so it's not a surprise that they're taller.
I don't think the Escher height can be explained by the heels alone, they're crazy tall even without them.
And yet it can, because people eyeballs are garbage at judging that sort of thing. Greyfax looks like she could never in a million years be the same height as other modern plastics, but when you actually *measure her* without the heels guess what - just over 30mm to the eye. Just like the Skitarii. Just like the GSC. Just like the regular DV Cultists. All around 30mm to the eye once you account for pose. Escher will be the same.
From the leeked tradeing post page Heavy Stubbers aren't avilable in the current rules. The only "generic" heavy/special weapons we get are Grenade Launchers and the plasma pistol if you count that.
Yes GW unfortunately always makes the initial rulebook pure garbage. It's just an introduction for new players. Just give the game a little time, maybe in 6 months time it will be proper.
plessiez wrote: They'll probably be in scale with Tempestus Scions and DV chaos cultists then as they are both noticeably larger than Cadians, GS cultists and Admech.
It's a bit frustrating how GWs scale oscillates. With the GS cultist and Admech releases they seemed to have dialled back the scale creep but these are much bigger again. It's going to limit what other kits they can be kitbashed with which is a shame.
Andy Hoare has said the scale of the Necromunda figs is the same as all modern plastics. Goliaths are supposed to be bigger than Space Marines and the Escher are wearing foot-long heels, so it's not a surprise that they're taller.
I don't think the Escher height can be explained by the heels alone, they're crazy tall even without them.
And yet it can, because people eyeballs are garbage at judging that sort of thing. Greyfax looks like she could never in a million years be the same height as other modern plastics, but when you actually *measure her* without the heels guess what - just over 30mm to the eye. Just like the Skitarii. Just like the GSC. Just like the regular DV Cultists. All around 30mm to the eye once you account for pose. Escher will be the same.
Theres also the extra mm's on the sculpted bases people aren't taking into account. The models themselves scale fine with gsc cultists etc
Yeah, I can confirm the Greyfax one. She looks like a GIANT, like, she was made in another scale compared with Scions and Genestealer Cultists. But she just has a very, very straight up pose and heels so high they could have -2 AP.
It's almost as if they are purposely not sticking to how things are in the real world where everyone is exactly the same height, no matter what age, sex, heritage or social circumstance?
Oh I'm sure they'll look fine on the tabletop together and yes you're quite right that the pose affects the overall height of the miniature.
The scale differences are really noticeable when you kitbash stuff though and that's what I'm referring to. If you combine parts from kits which are out of scale you'll notice it straight away. Arms look too long. Heads look too big. Bodies look too big for the legs they're on. Hopefully Andy Hoare is correct but I'm a little sceptical from that picture. I think they look to be at the larger end of the scale that GW work in.
Our group has settled on Monday nights for Necromunda - even if the new rules suck. (I don't think they will, but we have the old rules, just in case.)
Monday was chosen because of a typo on my part - Necromunday....
I just wish that more gangs were available for the initial release.
The Auld Grump - thinking about naming the leader of my Van Saar Colonel Dijon-Grey... it was him, in the conservatory, with the Las Cannon.
Vorian wrote: Well here's a Cadian and Cultist next to my version of the same Leader spoilered in my previous post (apologies for the various stages of unpaintedness!) so you can get an idea
By looking at this and the pic posted earlier, it is pretty easy to conclude that the new Necromunda minis are bigger than the Genestealer Cultists and Cadians. I said that this was the case when we saw the first pics.
That is what I was afraid of. I can see house goliath being larger than cadians but escher shouldn't be. I was really looking forward to buying necromunda gangs to use as conscipts/hive gangers
for the life of me, I can't see the problem you lot are having??
give her a haircut and she's actually shorter...not to mention generally considerably more slender all-round...then you take into account the extra 1-2mm from her base...I can't tell if her boots have high-heels or not...and ok, admittedly she does have a pretty wide stance, which might be taking off a couple of mm...but she seems a perfectly reasonable size to me?
ZoBo wrote: for the life of me, I can't see the problem you lot are having??
Give her a haircut and she's actually shorter...not to mention generally considerably more slender all-round...then you take into account the extra 1-2mm from her base...I can't tell if her boots have high-heels or not...and ok, admittedly she does have a pretty wide stance, which might be taking off a couple of mm...but she seems a perfectly reasonable size to me?
Its proportional. the older models are slightly smaller. Issues come with weapons swaps. The old weapons are smaller. baby small. the equipment is so, but in the figures themselves, if you have a leader, they will look like a ganger, now, when before, they had all of the lickeys and chewies. Were bigger, and had access to the best weapons.
If you look at the figures, you can swing them, they just need to be individuals, so its not as big a deal as if it was a whole unit of ten or twelve. Bear in mind- if you want to use the new weapons, they are going to look gigantic.
The old models were never going to be the same size as the new ones, we've known that for ages - that image is being used to back the as-far-as-we-know bogus claim that the new Escher are markedly larger than other new plastics like the GSC.
As usual, people making that claim continue to ignore perspective and pose. That GSC model, for example, leans forward enough to cut about 2mm off its overall height. The Escher metal isn't on the same "line" as the other models when you look at the feet. Additionally the new Escher plastics that people are comparing mentally with images like that are both wearing HUEG platform heels and come on moulded bases.
Look, I'm the last person to take a pop at someone for merely having and expressing a negative opinion, and if someone doesn't like the new models or any other aspect of the new game and wants to say so, have at it, if some folk agree with you and refrain from buying in that's entirely fair. But this "the new Escher are giantesses and don't fit the modern plastics" line needs to die off, just like the "Underhive is just a newbie boardgame mode" nonsense, because those aren't opinions, they're flat out incorrect information.
Vorian wrote: Well here's a Cadian and Cultist next to my version of the same Leader spoilered in my previous post (apologies for the various stages of unpaintedness!) so you can get an idea
By looking at this and the pic posted earlier, it is pretty easy to conclude that the new Necromunda minis are bigger than the Genestealer Cultists and Cadians. I said that this was the case when we saw the first pics.
That is what I was afraid of. I can see house goliath being larger than cadians but escher shouldn't be. I was really looking forward to buying necromunda gangs to use as conscipts/hive gangers
Is that a Genestealer Cultist? I thought it was a Chaos Cultist. Anyway, those Cadians are weird little squat dudes . The new Escher are clearly larger than they are, but they also look like actual people and not deformed dwarfs. I can sympathize with you for being disapinted that they might not fit in with your Imperial Guard army, but for Necromunda I'd rather have nice looking reasonably sized models than weird little hobbit people.
jake wrote: Is that a Genestealer Cultist? I thought it was a Chaos Cultist. Anyway, those Cadians are weird little squat dudes . The new Escher are clearly larger than they are, but they also look like actual people and not deformed dwarfs. I can sympathize with you for being disapinted that they might not fit in with your Imperial Guard army, but for Necromunda I'd rather have nice looking reasonably sized models than weird little hobbit people.
Don't get me wrong, the new models look fantastic. They will look great playing Necromunda. I just had hoped that GW would stick to the same scale as the majority of their models. Was planning on buying a ton of gangers to use as conscripts. I guess I can always scour ebay & buy the old ones.
The problem is less the gangers and more the million year old hunched up, statically posed Cadians really. That is a kit in desperate need of an update. Not much of a problem with the hunchbacked GSC as far as I can see as they are arch-backed like a purestrain making them appear shorter.
Unpainted, the Escher look pretty good imo. Whoever painted the official models has made them look really smudgy and weird though. Overall I think they are not as cool as old school Escher but I think with a good/different paint job the new ones should be pretty nice.
So has anything been said about when we can expect hired guns etc? With the gang a quarter release schedule there are going to be some fairly bland campaigns going on :(
From an interview with the guy who worked heavily on Necromunda but has since left (Monday morning mind blank means I cant recall his name!) he said that the plan was to release the main gangs thoughout 2018 and then go from there - but there were certainly plans to go into Outlanders and more if the market was there. Even new stuff that hasnt been seen before!
That does sound awesome but I do feel like the game would definitely benefit from more starting factions. The first few months are going to be an Escher/Goliath fest, then when the next new gang comes out I think loads of people will jump over to try something new . . . .
Meet Gor Half-Horn. Nobody knows where this mysterious bounty hunter comes from, or quite how a member of one of the most hated subgroups in the Imperium* managed to get a bounty hunting license. Look familiar? That’s because Gor Half-Horn is, in fact, a re-imagining of a classic model from Rogue Trader from the abhuman auxilla – inspect him closely and you’ll even notice the Imperial Aquila on his chest.
Wherever he’s from, Gor makes for a valuable asset in your Gang War campaigns. If you’re rich in credits, but your Gangers have an unfortunate habit of dying, or you really, really need a particular rival in the campaign taken out, you can hire Gor for a single game. On the tabletop, he’s a terror, combining mutant strength with a LOT of firepower and a pretty awful temper – whatever you do, if your opponent hires Gor, do NOT let him charge you!
Gor Half-Horn’s rules and fighter card are included with the model, as well as rules for adding him to your gang in both one-off and campaign games of Necromunda. This is just the first of what Forge World has planned for the game of gang warfare in the 41st Millennium – like Blood Bowl, there are plenty of awesome models in the pipeline to support the plastic ktis and gangs you’ve already seen.
This guy will be available to pre-order on Friday, meaning if you get yours, he should show up around the same time as the rest of your Necromunda orders.
*narrowly beating out pacifists and the insufficiently pious, but falling just short of psykers and heretics…
Aeneades wrote: Genestealer Cult should be available in the near future as well but I worry how viable they will be without a dedicated card deck.
Would they not just release the deck with rules to play the cult?
Indeed, I'd imagine they would release a card deck for GSC easily, as the models are in place. The same could be said for Chaos Cultists too. As for rules, they are probably going to release them in a supplement entitled "Heretics, Xenos and Mutants" for Necromunda, covering the fore mentioned gangs and unique characters. The scales, sump zombies etc. Would be in this too.
Meet Gor Half-Horn. Nobody knows where this mysterious bounty hunter comes from, or quite how a member of one of the most hated subgroups in the Imperium* managed to get a bounty hunting license. Look familiar? That’s because Gor Half-Horn is, in fact, a re-imagining of a classic model from Rogue Trader from the abhuman auxilla – inspect him closely and you’ll even notice the Imperial Aquila on his chest.
Wherever he’s from, Gor makes for a valuable asset in your Gang War campaigns. If you’re rich in credits, but your Gangers have an unfortunate habit of dying, or you really, really need a particular rival in the campaign taken out, you can hire Gor for a single game. On the tabletop, he’s a terror, combining mutant strength with a LOT of firepower and a pretty awful temper – whatever you do, if your opponent hires Gor, do NOT let him charge you!
Gor Half-Horn’s rules and fighter card are included with the model, as well as rules for adding him to your gang in both one-off and campaign games of Necromunda. This is just the first of what Forge World has planned for the game of gang warfare in the 41st Millennium – like Blood Bowl, there are plenty of awesome models in the pipeline to support the plastic ktis and gangs you’ve already seen.
This guy will be available to pre-order on Friday, meaning if you get yours, he should show up around the same time as the rest of your Necromunda orders.
*narrowly beating out pacifists and the insufficiently pious, but falling just short of psykers and heretics…
"Gor Half-Horn’s rules and fighter card are included with the model" - Great news! Although if he is up for pre-order on Friday my wallet is going to hate me even more than it already does.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh. And he has a chainsword . . .
Ruin_In_The_Dark wrote: "Gor Half-Horn’s rules and fighter card are included with the model" - Great news! Although if he is up for pre-order on Friday my wallet is going to hate me even more than it already does.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh. And he has a chainsword . . .
Maybe if you buy him his blister pack will include a wee chitty granting permission to add chainswords to the Trading Post table
Seriously though, the model is pretty awesome. Though I'm not a huge fan of that pistol design tbh.
Huh, that's a cool mini - and GW gave me a voucher for free FW shipping, so it's entirely possible that mr Mc Beasty there may well be my first purchase from ForgeWorld. I will be swapping the pistol though - should be a reasonably simple swap to a more conventionally styled one, he's unique enough already.
Meet Gor Half-Horn. Nobody knows where this mysterious bounty hunter comes from, or quite how a member of one of the most hated subgroups in the Imperium* managed to get a bounty hunting license. Look familiar? That’s because Gor Half-Horn is, in fact, a re-imagining of a classic model from Rogue Trader from the abhuman auxilla – inspect him closely and you’ll even notice the Imperial Aquila on his chest.
Wherever he’s from, Gor makes for a valuable asset in your Gang War campaigns. If you’re rich in credits, but your Gangers have an unfortunate habit of dying, or you really, really need a particular rival in the campaign taken out, you can hire Gor for a single game. On the tabletop, he’s a terror, combining mutant strength with a LOT of firepower and a pretty awful temper – whatever you do, if your opponent hires Gor, do NOT let him charge you!
Gor Half-Horn’s rules and fighter card are included with the model, as well as rules for adding him to your gang in both one-off and campaign games of Necromunda. This is just the first of what Forge World has planned for the game of gang warfare in the 41st Millennium – like Blood Bowl, there are plenty of awesome models in the pipeline to support the plastic ktis and gangs you’ve already seen.
This guy will be available to pre-order on Friday, meaning if you get yours, he should show up around the same time as the rest of your Necromunda orders.
*narrowly beating out pacifists and the insufficiently pious, but falling just short of psykers and heretics…
So cool!
Goatboy is GW´s answer to Hellboy. He just needs an uber-sized stub gun instead of his plasma pistol. But I am not gonna be too nitpicky about this. A really awesome model. We should all rejoice because a new golden age of Necromunda is about to begin.
The official reply from Facebook on the two week pre-order window is the following:
The extended pre-order period is to ensure everyone that wants a copy of Necromunda: Underhive on launch day is able to get one Chad. It will be well worth that wait, believe us!
streetsamurai wrote: Like it a lot more once I've seen tha painted version. Guess I'll have to buy him also. THe rerelaese of necro is going to cost me an arm and a leg
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is it a bad omen that nothing is sold out yet????
Hopefully it's a sign that GW learned from the SWA mistake and not a sign that the game bombed
People seem to forget that Shadow Wars was intended to be a one and done. There was nothing more planned to come with it.
I love that he's supposed to be the same beastman from all that time ago. If that's the case, then yes, that is a plasma pistol as thats what the old RT era one was carrying.
I'd say bolter as his primary arm, a laspistol holstered across his front and the Web Pistol he's pointing at someone he wants caught alive.
Good spot! I think shotgun and autopistol/stubgun would be more thematic, but then an old laspistol from his Imperial Guard days would make a lot of sense. The gun could be a custom model, but there is a lot of protruding barrel for a bolter. Agreed on web pistol.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I love that he's supposed to be the same beastman from all that time ago. If that's the case, then yes, that is a plasma pistol as thats what the old RT era one was carrying.
Well, he could've swapped his weapon, and they've gone for something with a similar silhouette.
-make it easier to move. Typically avoid ranged fight trumping melee. Don't give me the add-more-terrain argument, that's simply not feasible! -make it easier to climb up/down. Sure you could be super lucky and find a rare item to help in this manner. If you could afford it. Some times possible paths are too limited in the scope of a game. -make it possible to choose rare items of one category instead of just getting one item. You have a super cool leader model modelled with power axe? Too bad you spent 10 games finding a power sword! And don't give me some argument about converting old oop minis with bits I had 10 years ago but can't find. Same goes for the argument about making duplicate models each with a different combination of weapons. And don't even mention magnets! No more magnets!
I really look forward to this release. I hope rules change a lot cause I've played the previous releases again and again so could really need something completely fresh this time.
-make it easier to move. Typically avoid ranged fight trumping melee. Don't give me the add-more-terrain argument, that's simply not feasible!
That table looks fantastic. Bit stumped on what to do for my own 3D terrain really. Looking at TTcombat at the moment, looks like a pretty good system. Want the GW stuff but its too expensive and whilst it looks nice it also looks a little impractical for the underhive, not enough walkways etc.
I'd suggest going for stuff that's easily rearranged.
The above table looks gorgeous, and is no doubt fun to play on. But, it looks quite static. So without ways to rearrange the bulk of the layout, I fear my games would get repetitive.
TT Combat's stuff does look good. Spesh since they started doing resin add-ons to bring depth to the MDF.
There are plenty of walkways if you set it up correctly. I have spent far too much on these kits (even at very good discount) which is why I completely agree with your second point.
The above table looks gorgeous, and is no doubt fun to play on. But, it looks quite static. So without ways to rearrange the bulk of the layout, I fear my games would get repetitive.
TT Combat's stuff does look good. Spesh since they started doing resin add-ons to bring depth to the MDF.
I thought that at first too, but I don't think any of the terrain on that board is fixed- it appears to all be loose and placed on a printed battlemat. Very impressive.
The above table looks gorgeous, and is no doubt fun to play on. But, it looks quite static. So without ways to rearrange the bulk of the layout, I fear my games would get repetitive.
TT Combat's stuff does look good. Spesh since they started doing resin add-ons to bring depth to the MDF.
I thought that at first too, but I don't think any of the terrain on that board is fixed- it appears to all be loose and placed on a printed battlemat. Very impressive.
There is a dedicated "making of" thread about this particular table here on dakka. It is not only modular but also seems to be quite transportable (those "concrete floors" are hollow plastic trays that fit into one another for example).
The above table looks gorgeous, and is no doubt fun to play on. But, it looks quite static. So without ways to rearrange the bulk of the layout, I fear my games would get repetitive.
TT Combat's stuff does look good. Spesh since they started doing resin add-ons to bring depth to the MDF.
TTCombat have some really nice resin bits, lots of urban debris like barrels, tires, various street furniture, dirty mattresses and busted up sofas etc. I am almost certainly going to grab a few of those kits as they would make for great additions to a gang hideout.
The Industrial Hive kits look like great value too. I am still researching but so far TTC is in the lead.
Eldar, ALLOWED on an Imperial world? That sounds awfully heretical.
I'd be very happy if they put in rules for running Eldar and abhuman teams. Even happier if they decided to actually make plastic gang boxes for either, especially since that would likely mean new plastic Aspect Warriors. But, just rules alone would seriously make me happy.
The above table looks gorgeous, and is no doubt fun to play on. But, it looks quite static. So without ways to rearrange the bulk of the layout, I fear my games would get repetitive.
TT Combat's stuff does look good. Spesh since they started doing resin add-ons to bring depth to the MDF.
I thought that at first too, but I don't think any of the terrain on that board is fixed- it appears to all be loose and placed on a printed battlemat. Very impressive.
Vorian wrote: That set up doesn't stop range dominating though. It's very open really (does look cool though)
Risers (the platforms shown in the terrain pic above), really help with blocking ground level lines of sight. Also note that the high terrain on that table is in the center of the table, NOT at the edges. This really helps prevent multiple shooters on high terrain from completely dominating the table. If you want that high ground, you have to fight for it.
T
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whoa, they actually mentioned "Squats"? Very strange, since they are not supposed to exist with that name any more.
zamerion wrote: Squats and eldars in necromunda!! (thanks to battle bunnies)
The text is nearly copy&paste from Confrontation (WD 130). They only added 'Imperial Fists' (though that's not really an addition as this was part of the fluff back then) and changed 'the aliens and abhumans who come' to 'abhumans and for the few sanctioned xenos granted access'.
Have they said when the New Necromunda is set? If people like Kal Jericho are still alive maybe the squats have not been eaten by the Tyranids yet.
A squat mini or even a gang would be fantastic fan service and Wouldn't break the fluff of 40k.(such as it is)
I feel like I'm being trolled, but will definitely get any squats that come out. Eldar on imperial worlds were a thing in the fluff with Shafers last chancers, as one on the convicts got busted for joy riding an eldar diplomats personal transport.
Galas wrote: If they didn't only copy pasted it, but edited it, then that means they have plans to that part of the fluff.
I guess (they also changed 'a special spire' to 'a spire specificially', but well...). When looking at the setting video you can see some hives only mentioned in the Confrontation articles (and the Space Marine novel).
Like 'The Skull':
No one knows what fearful things have made their home amid the ruins, and even the nomads and scavvies fear to go near them.
I'm sure FW will be releasing a "Ratling Miner" hired gun at some point. It was mentioned in the White Dwarf that they are doing quite a few new hired guns
Genoside07 wrote: So will SWA and Necromunda be compatible?? or easy to convert??
Both start with teams of 1000 points and more or less everything matches up...
A las gun used by imperial guard will work differently from a ganger's las gun so that works out
Just curious about the the legacy rules will say..
Yes and No, the rule for the weapon can be converted based on their Necromunda and 8th profile.
Thing is most of the Killteam from SWA are overkill when you pit them against a Ganger team. Bolt gun/pistol and carapace armor which is a low/mid tier item in SWA is a rare collectible in Necromunda. Thing like Power Armor/ Holosuit which is common equipment for killteam is straight up relic/artefact collectible in Necromunda. Not to mention lots of "common" gun like Tau carbine, Necron blaster or Skitarii rifle that can rip any ganger to shreds.
The only team that fit in Necromunda setting is GSC team. Other team should stick to where they belong. Altho you could make a SW : Underhive with only killteam fighting eachother, in the end Harlequin and Nid will still wipe the floor with everyone
In terms of efficiency, we may actually see Squats and Beastmen get gangs in time. Because both can be fielded as Abhuman Helots in one of the HH lists.
As beautiful as everything looks, why a Beastman as the first side release? That's fairly self-indulgent on the studio/sculptor's part when more logical, longed-for things could have been done first. Let's hope this isn't like Moffat Doctor Who, when an uber-fan takes the reigns and everyone is hopeful, but their bizarre, over-thought, under-clever head-canon becomes the new actual canon... Like, release the classic gangs before going off piste, surely?
One (Copy/Paste) line doesn't make a line of Squats iminent or even likely. I mean Necromunda went 20 odd years without a Squat gang release. I for one won't get my hopes too high.
But the new format might make for a decent angle for an Engineer or Prospector...
That is some ancient fluff, interesting if they bring that back but that will go against GW's "The Squats never existed" policy.
Which is nonsense - they exist in the fluff sections of both 7th and 8ed rulebooks - same as cat people and various other abhumans.
The only team that fit in Necromunda setting is GSC team. Other team should stick to where they belong. Altho you could make a SW : Underhive with only killteam fighting eachother, in the end Harlequin and Nid will still wipe the floor with everyone
Yes and no - you can make high end gangs that can work in the underhive - see Spyers - they just have to work differently to normal gangs.
You can also have kill team sweeps (Guard, Marines, Arbites, Sisters), Inquisition probes, hive purges and the like as special scenarios where the gangs just try to survive and escape the area before the superior forces kill them.
My FLGS was called by his GW rep yesterday to put in final orders for Necromunda next week. He was a bit pushy as the store only wanted six copies (he's not buying into hype as big any more after the previous boxed games are all still on his shelves, even Shadespire, while played, still packs his shelves) and none of the bundles on offer, as they don't really offer anything extra, not unless you order a ton of boxed sets and the like.
IIRC if you order sixteen boxed sets or a bunch of other bundles you'd get holographic gang leader cards or something.
Yaaaaaaaay..
It was a bit worrying to hear him phone in his order and realise that most of the stuff is going to be picked up by me soon.
timd wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Whoa, they actually mentioned "Squats"? Very strange, since they are not supposed to exist with that name any more.
T
They were mentioned with that name in 6th edition 40k (and possibly 7th and 8th, too).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breotan wrote: Looks like they're using this new edition to bring things back more in line with the old Rogue Trader stuff.
Andy Hoare has already said he's been raiding the vaults for background material for this new edition (for example, that Beastman's plasma pistol - he apparently dug out old casts of the Adventurers range to come up with that design). There's Hive Worlds mentioned in the new edition that have only previously been mentioned in the rules booklet included in the Citi-Block floor plans set for Rogue Trader and the Judge Dredd RPG (which contain the very first gang skirmish rules - even before Confrontation).
Rogue Trader indeed Andy H's posts on the Oldhammer forum
I'm The product manager for the Necromunda release, and I'm as much as an Oldhammerer as anyone on this board, having started the Tales from the Maelstrom blog with Gadge and others back around 2006. I've made the new edition as oldhammer friendly as possible and a couple of people from this very forum have playtested it, so I truly hope it's received in that spirit
I think old Grognard's everywhere need to embrace if not Necromunda the game, Necromunda the miniature's range.
Remember, Specialist Games may have better funding these days (that much is obvious. Just compare the production values!), but stuff has to sell if we're to get more.
Now I'm not arguing those fans of Oldhammer should slavishly buy everything produced for Necromunda. But, if something even vaguely tickles your fancy, do see if you can fit it into your budget.
If GW 'proper' sees us going mental for stuff like Beastmen, Squats and other oddities of yesteryear, it's more likely we'll see more of the same coming in.
And it doesn't need to be purchases either. Engage with the design team. Tell them what you've loved, liked, meh and hated about recent releases. As long as it's constructive (gushing and aimless whining are equally redundant as feedback), I'm sure it'll be welcomed.
They're starting to give us what they think we want. So far, we're grateful for that - but don't forget to give them that steer.
Honestly I'd only be happy seeing stuff like Squats come back if they actually make them interesting. All the other "fantasy" factions have come a long way since the early days, just cramming the awful original "WHFB Dwarfs, but also Hell's Angels for some reason" in isn't going to cut it, they need updated - nostalgia only goes so far, especially since not everyone is equally enamoured of this or that part of the old fluff.
I have already consigned myself to getting at least one of everything . . . Necro coming back has cranked my nostalgia levels to critical. If the rules suck I have the old books and online editions and if anything ends up missing I can shoehorn it in. I will be getting all the models they produce for this as I have spent years looking at insanely priced Ratskins and Escher on ebay thinking "you should of bought these first time round . . . "
Yodhrin wrote: Honestly I'd only be happy seeing stuff like Squats come back if they actually make them interesting. All the other "fantasy" factions have come a long way since the early days, just cramming the awful original "WHFB Dwarfs, but also Hell's Angels for some reason" in isn't going to cut it, they need updated - nostalgia only goes so far, especially since not everyone is equally enamoured of this or that part of the old fluff.
exactly. Squats were lame af, and would need a serious redesign to make them interesting. Honestly, I think they are much cooler concepts to (re)visit than these guys
Yodhrin wrote: Honestly I'd only be happy seeing stuff like Squats come back if they actually make them interesting. All the other "fantasy" factions have come a long way since the early days, just cramming the awful original "WHFB Dwarfs, but also Hell's Angels for some reason" in isn't going to cut it, they need updated - nostalgia only goes so far, especially since not everyone is equally enamoured of this or that part of the old fluff.
Indeed. You've pretty much nailed why they dropped them, according to Internet Legend.
If it's rubbish, don't buy it. But do feedback to them all the same. Doesn't cost owt.
Specialist Games products are entirely aimed at veterans mate
I see a lot of talk on youtube, unboxings and discussions about Necromunda (and also Blood Bowl after that was released) and it seems entirely like noobs or people without any background from the games that do the talking!
Everyone should be welcome to try this game and talk about it, but are there any quality videoes from people who actually have played Necromunda?
I'm more interested in hearing the differences rather than the introduction to and by people coming from 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ruin_In_The_Dark wrote: I have already consigned myself to getting at least one of everything . . . Necro coming back has cranked my nostalgia levels to critical. If the rules suck I have the old books and online editions and if anything ends up missing I can shoehorn it in. I will be getting all the models they produce for this as I have spent years looking at insanely priced Ratskins and Escher on ebay thinking "you should of bought these first time round . . . "
This x1000!!!! Been starved for ages and with high prices for old/ugly models (some exceptions).
At the risk of going off tangent, I feel I have to post this in defense of Squats. This is Jervis Johnson, posting on the old Fanatic Epic: 40,000 boards back in the heady days of 2004 on what actually happened with the Squats for those unaware:
Spoiler:
I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
Best regards,
Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic
So, yes, in a sense you are right in that they [GW] felt their 40k iteration was poor. However, their Epic iteration was well loved. I am hoping, if they return, that they capture that bespoke, artisan feeling they used to have in Epic.
Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.
BrookM wrote: Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.
Or illicit tech smugglers. I'd quite like the idea of the Squats still being quite advanced but doing their level best to keep it concealed.
BrookM wrote: Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.
Or illicit tech smugglers. I'd quite like the idea of the Squats still being quite advanced but doing their level best to keep it concealed.
Would be a great way of explaining how Spyrers got their advanced equipment.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think old Grognard's everywhere need to embrace if not Necromunda the game, Necromunda the miniature's range.
Remember, Specialist Games may have better funding these days (that much is obvious. Just compare the production values!), but stuff has to sell if we're to get more.
Now I'm not arguing those fans of Oldhammer should slavishly buy everything produced for Necromunda. But, if something even vaguely tickles your fancy, do see if you can fit it into your budget.
If GW 'proper' sees us going mental for stuff like Beastmen, Squats and other oddities of yesteryear, it's more likely we'll see more of the same coming in.
And it doesn't need to be purchases either. Engage with the design team. Tell them what you've loved, liked, meh and hated about recent releases. As long as it's constructive (gushing and aimless whining are equally redundant as feedback), I'm sure it'll be welcomed.
They're starting to give us what they think we want. So far, we're grateful for that - but don't forget to give them that steer.
Honestly, I expect to be making orders to Forgeworld for the first time in my life.
Which means I'll also get some HH stuff to round out my plastics -_-.
BrookM wrote: Would be a great way of explaining how Spyrers got their advanced equipment.
Nice. I like that kind of thinking. Squat tech smugglers trading advanced, non Imperium sanctioned tech for Van Saar STC tech or Escher narcotics.
Necromunda will really open out the slice of life side. I'm hoping they'll really flesh out the more mundane activities (as opposed to world shattering events) like tech smuggling, drug running, business dealing, bounty hunting, all that good stuff.
The only team that fit in Necromunda setting is GSC team. Other team should stick to where they belong. Altho you could make a SW : Underhive with only killteam fighting eachother, in the end Harlequin and Nid will still wipe the floor with everyone
This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.
The only team that fit in Necromunda setting is GSC team. Other team should stick to where they belong. Altho you could make a SW : Underhive with only killteam fighting eachother, in the end Harlequin and Nid will still wipe the floor with everyone
This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.
MEQ units are not suitable to field in an underhive.
But maybe a unit of Scouts?
This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.
MEQ units are not suitable to field in an underhive.
But maybe a unit of Scouts?
Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.
Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.
This. Unless there is some sort of major Chaos or Xenos incursion in the underhive, why would SM send scouts down there? And if they did, it becomes a 40K game played in an industrial setting, not a Necromunda game.
I'm also not really a fan of random things turning up in the underhive, the setting works without 40k stuff turning up. It's uniquely small scale is one of its main selling points
The two cults make sense, not much else does - and even then it should be both cults in stealth mode, don't need daemons and genestealers everywhere - those are for when the cults are more 40k scale (imo).
BrookM wrote: Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.
Or illicit tech smugglers. I'd quite like the idea of the Squats still being quite advanced but doing their level best to keep it concealed.
The real reason you never see Van Saar without those suits - they're all on stilts!
Once we ran a Campaing where a Deathwathc Kill Team of 5 marines appeared in the Underhive because they where after a Genestealer Cult. At that point they where killing everything that did come in their sight because the Genestealer where so widespream that nearly everything that wasn't our gangs was part of the cult, and we didn't even realized (Yeah, we were killing a bunch of GM's bald men but nobody tought they where cultists, he totally tricked us in believen they where Delaque )
The final Battle was 3 survivor marines of the original 5 supported by a Goliath Gang, a Redemptionist (This was mine) Gang, a Cawdor Gang, and a Escher Gang. Agaisn't a Horde of Genestealer cultists.
I tried to kill the Patriarch to steal the glory. He ended killing my whole gang
But yeah, those are specific scenarios with a Game Master and friends. Having a "Space marine gang" for casual play doesn't work with the Necromunda Setting.
This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.
MEQ units are not suitable to field in an underhive.
But maybe a unit of Scouts?
Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.
Possibly because marines do as they please, and may not trust the authorities to do the job right?
That took me 5 seconds, so I'm sure there are a number of good explanations possible.
I know the original Necromunda was pretty limited in its crossover with mainline 40k, but aside from the small Eldar warband, did any other mainline 40k armies have gangs? Like, were there rules for running an Inquisition team or Sisters?
Barzam wrote: I know the original Necromunda was pretty limited in its crossover with mainline 40k, but aside from the small Eldar warband, did any other mainline 40k armies have gangs? Like, were there rules for running an Inquisition team or Sisters?
Barzam wrote: I know the original Necromunda was pretty limited in its crossover with mainline 40k, but aside from the small Eldar warband, did any other mainline 40k armies have gangs? Like, were there rules for running an Inquisition team or Sisters?
I recall facing against Chaos Marines.
That was just a special scenario in which a couple of gangs fight against a common threat. CSM wasn´t a gang and their members could not gain XP. In a nutshell, they were just villains of the week.
It baffles my mind why people want to include SM in Necromunda. The Underhive´s motto is lowlifes with high-tech. There is simply no place for goons with power armour. And no, this not an invitation to smuggle SM Scouts into the game. Smurfs and relatives should stick with 40K. They already ruined the 40K setting with this silly primaris nonsense and I don´t want this awful stuff anywhere near a Necromunda board.
Squat topic:
It is imho highly unlikely that there will be a full squat gang. Maybe a bounter hunter like Goatboy. The emphasis of Necromunda is on human gangs of the various important Houses and a few mutants.
Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.
This. Unless there is some sort of major Chaos or Xenos incursion in the underhive, why would SM send scouts down there? And if they did, it becomes a 40K game played in an industrial setting, not a Necromunda game.
Indeed. Necromunda is a chance to break away from the 'standards' of 40k, to go to street level, literally, and be immersed in a setting of gangs and criminals that gives a hugely different feel in both game and setting. Marines are in everything else, however, they are not everywhere in background terms, being composed of only a thousand or so marines per chapter, which is infinitesimally small compared to all the other life out there. I dont understand why people feel the need to have to have marines in something like Necromunda, it's the equivalent of bringing the Avengers or the Justice League to a walllet theft....
Vorian wrote: I'm also not really a fan of random things turning up in the underhive, the setting works without 40k stuff turning up. It's uniquely small scale is one of its main selling points
Random things turning up in the underhive is what Necromunda is all about. In many ways its the continuation of Rogue Trader as a competitive game...where random things turn up in the underhive.
Yeah, but theres random proper necromunda things like Beastmen Mercenaries, Squats, Mutants, Low-key Heretics or Cultists, Mercenary bands, random xeno/mutant beast, canibals, etc... and then theres random 40k things like Taus, Eldars, etc...
BrookM wrote: Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.
Squats and Demiurg are two completely separate things.
BrookM wrote: Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.
Squats and Demiurg are two completely separate things.
Anything can happen, it wouldn't surprise me if both were rolled into the same thing somewhere down the line.
kendoka wrote: I totally agree that (the official) Necromunda should be quarantined from 40k.
That said, adding a few tyranids in a campaign might be fun:
Spoiler:
That would be an awesome game. The gangs are trying to outrun the Nids and get off the far table edge, while the other gang is trying to do the same. Somewhere in the middle they remember the old adage of not having to outrun the bear, just have to outrun the other guy .
This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.
MEQ units are not suitable to field in an underhive.
But maybe a unit of Scouts?
Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.
Possibly because marines do as they please, and may not trust the authorities to do the job right?
That took me 5 seconds, so I'm sure there are a number of good explanations possible.
I can probably invent a logically coherent explanation as to why Doctor Who is in Necromunda, that doesn't mean putting him in the game would be a good idea. These kind of wildly implausible fringe-case "possibilities" are what house rules are for, they should be kept well out of the actual rules.
Also, those Corpse Starch and Goliath t-shirts are getting bought - time to hit up the anti-scalper FB group(I swear if GW limit these to 1-per customer...). A lot of the designs recently for apparel have been really good - a fan will know exactly what they're referring to, while random people will just think it's a band tee(people keep asking me what kind of metal the band Vermintide plays ).
I think a lot of people is considering Necromunda as another battleground for the normal armies when it should be just the oddity pop up here and there.
The random Inquisitor doing a search, some lone or trio of Eldar outcast experiencing something different, the Mutie or Abhorrent that it's just trying to hide from the authorities and such.
All the special characters should be considered as the guest Stars of a show they appear randomly here and there but shouldn't be your everyday mill of the run guys in a Necro game.
Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.
This. Unless there is some sort of major Chaos or Xenos incursion in the underhive, why would SM send scouts down there? And if they did, it becomes a 40K game played in an industrial setting, not a Necromunda game.
Indeed. Necromunda is a chance to break away from the 'standards' of 40k, to go to street level, literally, and be immersed in a setting of gangs and criminals that gives a hugely different feel in both game and setting. Marines are in everything else, however, they are not everywhere in background terms, being composed of only a thousand or so marines per chapter, which is infinitesimally small compared to all the other life out there. I dont understand why people feel the need to have to have marines in something like Necromunda, it's the equivalent of bringing the Avengers or the Justice League to a walllet theft....
Conveniently, the Imperial Fists Legion brought Necromunda to compliance during the Great Crusade, and has maintained a Chapter keep for recruitment purposes ever since, so finding Space Marines is not a huge issue. Some Space Marines come from Necromunda.
I don't advocate having Space Marines as a gang, but they would make great NPCs for a GM to use during a campaign. One of the gangs is getting too powerful compared to it's peers? The Imperial Fists get wind of this, and raid the gang to steal promising recruits, thus knocking them down a peg. The gang just needs to escape with as many gangers intact as possible, or maybe sacrificing the less important members. As a full gang, Space Marines should stay well away from Necromunda.
As cool as the suggested scenarios sound, I feel they should be kept to home brew stuff.
Necromunda is a chance for us to see the Little Guys in action. Not just base level Imperial Citizens of all stripes, but lesser known or previously unseen Xenos. Let it be the background microscope to 40k’s telescope. Keep it for the smaller scale, and keep the Big Boys to the galaxy shaking events.
Hell, in the original Necromunda I didn’t even like Spyrers being a playable gang. They sat out much of the game (stuff like trading and territory), and were instead simply rock hard at the Combat. I found they attracted a certain type of player, who was rarely much fun as an opponent. NPCs? Sure. But include them in a campaign and they’ve always felt like a millstone round things.
So I think the real question is: Why were they called "Squats" in that piece of fluff instead of the current term "Demiurg"?
T
zedmeister wrote: At the risk of going off tangent, I feel I have to post this in defense of Squats. This is Jervis Johnson, posting on the old Fanatic Epic: 40,000 boards back in the heady days of 2004 on what actually happened with the Squats for those unaware:
Spoiler:
I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
Best regards,
Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic
So, yes, in a sense you are right in that they [GW] felt their 40k iteration was poor. However, their Epic iteration was well loved. I am hoping, if they return, that they capture that bespoke, artisan feeling they used to have in Epic.
As cool as the suggested scenarios sound, I feel they should be kept to home brew stuff.
Necromunda is a chance for us to see the Little Guys in action. Not just base level Imperial Citizens of all stripes, but lesser known or previously unseen Xenos. Let it be the background microscope to 40k’s telescope. Keep it for the smaller scale, and keep the Big Boys to the galaxy shaking events.
All of this.
I want Sump Thing, and mutants, and weird Imperial citizens who's professions and attire reflect the grim, surreal lunacy of humanity in the 41st millennium, and of course gangs old & new. Not Space Marines yet again. I mean look, I like Space Marines, I like 'em plenty, but for the love of jeebus you can't live on a diet of only chocolate - you can play Space Marines in Kill Team, Shadow War, 40K, hell they even have basically a whole game to themselves in 30K with its own small-scale variants, I think it's fair that we have one game in the 40K setting that focuses on something other than Marines punching other Marines or the handful of Big Bad enemies.
EDIT: As for the Squads/Demiurg thing, that's not hard to rationalise - Demiurg is what they call themselves, their society and race; Squat is the derogatory slang term the broader Imperium use for them(probably not to their face). The issue though is they would have to retcon Demiurg, since I recall(though might be imagining) them being described as a kind of crystalline xenos race rather than abhumans.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Because Squats and Demirug are completely separate species and always have been I’d imagine?
In the quote from Jervis, he says that if space dwarfs come back into the universe, they will be called Demiurg.
T
I disagree with him in his quote where he says Squats is a bad name. That's exactly what the imperium of man would call little dwarfy adhumans. It's perfect imo
As cool as the suggested scenarios sound, I feel they should be kept to home brew stuff.
Necromunda is a chance for us to see the Little Guys in action. Not just base level Imperial Citizens of all stripes, but lesser known or previously unseen Xenos. Let it be the background microscope to 40k’s telescope. Keep it for the smaller scale, and keep the Big Boys to the galaxy shaking events.
Hell, in the original Necromunda I didn’t even like Spyrers being a playable gang. They sat out much of the game (stuff like trading and territory), and were instead simply rock hard at the Combat. I found they attracted a certain type of player, who was rarely much fun as an opponent. NPCs? Sure. But include them in a campaign and they’ve always felt like a millstone round things.
Oh, that is fair enough, I see them as a campaign tool for a GM, not a playable race. So literally NPCs. If GW released a campaign supplement, I can see having NPC rules in there for Imperial Fist recruitment teams. But certainly not in the core rules.
I think generic 40K skirmish based on Necromunda rules would be a great thing (so basically Shadow War: Armageddon with updated rules) but it should be kept separate from Necromunda proper.
Yodhrin wrote: EDIT: As for the Squads/Demiurg thing, that's not hard to rationalise - Demiurg is what they call themselves, their society and race; Squat is the derogatory slang term the broader Imperium use for them(probably not to their face). The issue though is they would have to retcon Demiurg, since I recall(though might be imagining) them being described as a kind of crystalline xenos race rather than abhumans.
While not wholly crystalline, the concept art of aeons ago did sport crystal outcrops:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Because Squats and Demirug are completely separate species and always have been I’d imagine?
In the quote from Jervis, he says that if space dwarfs come back into the universe, they will be called Demiurg.
T
Yeah, referring to the archetype of high fantasy dwarves (short, stubborn, honourable, miners) once again becoming a playable army in 40k.
This is not the same as Squats=Demiurg.
Squats are a race of abhumans that were almost entirely wiped out by a Tyranid Hive Fleet that attacked their home worlds in the galactic core, whose few remnants are essentially all refugees in the Imperium.
Demiurg are an alien species of asteroid miners, loosely allied to the T’au Empire, who are known to be doing well enough for themselves that the T’au haven’t managed to totally subjugate them like certain other “allied” species.
Yeah, referring to the archetype of high fantasy dwarves (short, stubborn, honourable, miners) once again becoming a playable army in 40k.
This is not the same as Squats=Demiurg.
Squats are a race of abhumans that were almost entirely wiped out by a Tyranid Hive Fleet that attacked their home worlds in the galactic core, whose few remnants are essentially all refugees in the Imperium.
Demiurg are an alien species of asteroid miners, loosely allied to the T’au Empire, who are known to be doing well enough for themselves that the T’au haven’t managed to totally subjugate them like certain other “allied” species.
It is unnecessarily confusing to have both though. They should just retcon the Squats to be Xenos, whose real name is Demiurg, 'Squat' being a nickname for them.
Is confusing for people to have Dark Eldar, Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins, Exodites and Ynnari?
"Oh jeezz I can't remember all those types of space dwarfs, one rocky and Xenos and other abhuman... what? You don't know who are the Novamarines and the heroic deeds of his Chapter Master Bardan Dovaro?!"
Galas wrote: Is confusing for people to have Dark Eldar, Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins, Exodites and Ynnari?
No, because they're actually all Eldar. We're talking a situation here where there are two different sorts of Space Drwarfs, which are no way related; they're not two offshoots of the same race.
Yeah. Two types of Space Dwarfs. Like Ogryns and Orks, they have similarities but expanded upon the generic "space dwarf" theme nobody should have a confusion with them.
But as I said before, for me just let the Squat's squatted and expand the Demiurgs.
What I want to see:
I want to see Squat tech smugglers
I want to see gangers suffering from MACS (Mysteriously Acquired Crazy Syndrome)
I want to see Pontifex Maximus out for a stroll
I want to see Muto's in gunfights amongst the barrios
I want to see exotic aliens hiding away or moving clandestinely about, like Krashrak the Stalker here from Inquisitor:
I remember you could play as a Eldar Farseer and his 2 Fire Dragon bodyguards or have a Eldar Ranger as a hired gun. The Ranger I wouldn't mind coming back, he wasn't to OP. The Farseer & Co not so much.
Eldar are basically taller, thinner humans with a few other specific superficial details tweaked.
In-universe, just think of the Demiurg as basically the Eldar-equivalent for Squats; a completely different species with a very similar physical form, differentiated only in small ways.
IRL, though, I get that humans and Eldar (elves) are both different archetypes, whereas Squats and Demiurg are both space dwarves, so I suppose it's not quite the same thing from a design point of view.
This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.
MEQ units are not suitable to field in an underhive.
But maybe a unit of Scouts?
Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.
Because it's their first day and they are very bad at this and they got lost during orienteering, and their scout sergeant is going to have some very stern words with them when they get back to their fortress monastery and maybe the Chapter Master will be speaking to their parents.
Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.
This. Unless there is some sort of major Chaos or Xenos incursion in the underhive, why would SM send scouts down there? And if they did, it becomes a 40K game played in an industrial setting, not a Necromunda game.
Indeed. Necromunda is a chance to break away from the 'standards' of 40k, to go to street level, literally, and be immersed in a setting of gangs and criminals that gives a hugely different feel in both game and setting. Marines are in everything else, however, they are not everywhere in background terms, being composed of only a thousand or so marines per chapter, which is infinitesimally small compared to all the other life out there. I dont understand why people feel the need to have to have marines in something like Necromunda, it's the equivalent of bringing the Avengers or the Justice League to a walllet theft....
Conveniently, the Imperial Fists Legion brought Necromunda to compliance during the Great Crusade, and has maintained a Chapter keep for recruitment purposes ever since, so finding Space Marines is not a huge issue. Some Space Marines come from Necromunda.
I don't advocate having Space Marines as a gang, but they would make great NPCs for a GM to use during a campaign. One of the gangs is getting too powerful compared to it's peers? The Imperial Fists get wind of this, and raid the gang to steal promising recruits, thus knocking them down a peg. The gang just needs to escape with as many gangers intact as possible, or maybe sacrificing the less important members. As a full gang, Space Marines should stay well away from Necromunda.
Agreed, but GW has even depicted them in the Underhive before... if the cash grab feels too good to pass up, then...
Because it's their first day and they are very bad at this and they got lost during orienteering, and their scout sergeant is going to have some very stern words with them when they get back to their fortress monastery and maybe the Chapter Master will be speaking to their parents.
Or just executing them. Depends on the Chapter.
Imperial Fists. So probably they would receive time in this badboy...
As a rare scenario, I would be interested in a mission;
where a lone imperial fist gets into a brief fight while he "recruits" a juve from a gang. (With the option to just wave goodbye and not fight)
The worst gang in your league (that guy who gets the really bad luck and ends up with 3 gangers left mid campaign) can turn to chaos and gets a hand from a chaos marine until they level out with the rest of the league.
But a space marine in Necromunda should be like Artemis was in inquisitor scary as ..... and stupidly OP. As mentioned above by someone else marines and a lot of 40k units would be on another level even compared to gangs turned up to 11.
Speaking of Inquisitor that would be an expansion I would like to see after the main gangs get done.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I need a Ross kemp mini, because that would be an amazing set of diorama pics
I could see a rogue marine hired gun working well, actually... basically a renegade, except not a chaos worshipping one. It does happen in the fluff, and having them as an (expensive) hired gun would make them appropriately tough without breaking anything. Its not more unrealistic than a beastman with a plasmapistol anyway.
Tyr13 wrote: I could see a rogue marine hired gun working well, actually... basically a renegade, except not a chaos worshipping one. It does happen in the fluff, and having them as an (expensive) hired gun would make them appropriately tough without breaking anything. Its not more unrealistic than a beastman with a plasmapistol anyway.
Ronin-like space marines would be awesome in so many ways!
I’m with the “keep the Space Marines out of the underhive” crowd. They are super soldiers bred for the toughest opposition humanity faces. Not slumming it in the bowels of hive cities. Even renegades would see that as beneath them.
I don't know, if the renegade space marine cast off his armor (for whatever reason) or to the very least had only pieces of it left and had only basic weapons, he could be a balanced match against a powerful gang.
ExcessivePunk wrote: I don't know, if the renegade space marine cast off his armor (for whatever reason) or to the very least had only pieces of it left and had only basic weapons, he could be a balanced match against a powerful gang.
He'd also basically just be a tougher Goliath.
Seriously guys, this was the sort of thing that showed up in the Journal ages & ages after the game had come out and folk had run out of other actually interesting ideas for stuff to add, and shoehorning in Marines or whatever else takes away resources the SG team could be using on said interesting stuff instead. Can folk not just play Kill Team with gangs as IG or whatever if they really absolutely *must* have ganger vs Marine combat?
ExcessivePunk wrote: I don't know, if the renegade space marine cast off his armor (for whatever reason) or to the very least had only pieces of it left and had only basic weapons, he could be a balanced match against a powerful gang.
He'd also basically just be a tougher Goliath.
Seriously guys, this was the sort of thing that showed up in the Journal ages & ages after the game had come out and folk had run out of other actually interesting ideas for stuff to add, and shoehorning in Marines or whatever else takes away resources the SG team could be using on said interesting stuff instead. Can folk not just play Kill Team with gangs as IG or whatever if they really absolutely *must* have ganger vs Marine combat?
B-b-but... without Space Marines it is not Warhammer!
At this stage I'm holding back. It sounds like the Necromunda game is not complete without Gang War and the lure of other gangs (Arbites? Please?) is too strong.
I like the reimagined Goliaths and the Escher look great but if there's more to come then I can wait.
Alas GW, with long (long, long) awaited armies like Genestealer Cults and Mechanicus how can I keep up?
All they need now is Sensei warbands and I'm finished.
Enforcers, OK. But I'd prefer them to have their own look, not just cheap Arbites knock-offs (which they were in-universe). Arbites can go into 40k when Codex: Imperial Agents is released. I'd like to see the return of the Brat gangs - perhaps with a Spyrer as a Hired Gun.
Before third edition, I could see Marines and Orks being part of the background (although as a 40k campaign, not as part of the Necromunda game), as an Ork invasion and the subsequent Imperial retaliation led by the Imperial Fists resulted in The Skull - a ruined hive now home to outcasts, heretics and mutants. But that was retconned from being a century before "now" to during the Great Crusade.
There is cash money money in nostalgia. Especially when their target audience is now capable of spending wild amounts of money they never could first time round.
Ruin_In_The_Dark wrote: There is cash money money in nostalgia. Especially when their target audience is now capable of spending wild amounts of money they never could first time round.
I'll go all in for Necromunda. I was too young (and too poor) to get the original models. Not missing out again.
Ruin_In_The_Dark wrote: There is cash money money in nostalgia. Especially when their target audience is now capable of spending wild amounts of money they never could first time round.
I'll go all in for Necromunda. I was too young (and too poor) to get the original models. Not missing out again.
Same here! I had a Ratskin and Orlock gang (painted terribly) and some banged up terrain. Looking forward to doing it properly now I have the cash and have improved my modelling skills. The 23rd is going to be like Christmas Eve in my house!
Thymais wrote: I'm looking forward to seeing what the Inquisimunda community does with the rules.
and using my Ratskins again... but they better be silly like last time.
Inquisimunda - nice.
Is there a hint that the rules have changed?
Inquisi-munda is cool. I believe the Pilgrym event at Warhammer World was based off rules like that. I'd love to make a custom retinue of acolytes, again.
I think the rule changes are how a model is activated, players alternate activating one model at a time, and they get two actions they can do. Plus, the introduction of Cool, Intelligence and Willpower can make for interesting rules mechanics.
Yup, as expected, they're going to flog us bits of the postgame sequence as micro-DLC. Glad I chose not to buy Gang War now, in the event I actually get some games in next year I'll rely on someone else's copy and then buy the inevitable compilation later.
The female Goliath thing is interesting, if it's not against some prior bit of explicit fluff and the models are done properly(ie, they're built like a palette of bricks) I'd be down for that.
well I guess I'll just shut up and go away then, won't I! 
