Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@Manchu: On Dakka, Eldar have no real allies.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Manchu: On Dakka, Eldar have no real allies.

I really love them and am trying to find a way that they can be balanced and dangerous.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Enemies don't ever need to close on Eldar - they can simply reinforce to a point beyond which Eldar can't hurt them, while having sufficient Attack potential that Eldar dare not attack, either.

You are assuming that Eldar will be ganged up on immediatley. This tactic is only playable towards the end, until then there are simply too many people to concentrate on a method that will render Eldar impotent.

With ff out, clearly, they haven't been unnoticed.
*snip*
Being A1, Eldar aren't much of a threat - indeed, if there weren't 4 Eldar players, they'd even worse off.

I imagined that the Eldars strength would be their very appearence of Weakness, making them the perfect mediator to turn the other factions against each other. That's what Eldar do isn't it? The only reason this hasn't worked here is becuase there were 4 players to start with, the most out of any other faction.

Not really. I did a quick army analysis at the start of the game and concluded that Eldar were designed as a weaker faction in the game. However, with 3 other Eldar, I thought that a 4th (matching the Imp total) might tip them into something other than an auto-loss. I was wrong, and at 3 Eldar remaining, with most other factions all above 10, I don't think things look good for the pointy ears.

Eldar started out with the most players than any other faction. Even now they are breaking even with Imperials (sorry ff, but I can't expect to you hold on for much longer). It's hardly doom and gloom for them. (And certainly would have been impossible if not for the swift and unexpected alliance with the Orks.

Start 8 might be playable for Eldar, but they'd need to hit harder or to make up the difference. Or have pop up attacks or something.

Unlikely, as there is little to suggest that Eldar are worthy of even 2 attacks, which puts them on equal footing with SM. Perhaps 2 attacks, but they MUST be spread out to 2 different targets (similar to IG).

focusedfire wrote:
They should have a max close to what sisters would have. Actually Tau and sisters could be templates for similar amies that use force multipliers but move and attack differently.

Not a bad idea.

BTW, I like EF's Necrons. They might need a little tweak but I think that they would be playable as he posted them.

It's quite clearly just a skeleton design, rushed enough as it is. I couldn't think of anything to set them truly apart, and I wasn't sure whether a special rule like the Tau Reinforce or Eldar Move should be demanded. Perhaps (due to their awaking) each Necron CANNOT start in the same World as another Necron army. Although that's hardly an advantage. *shrug* Maybe you can think of something.

BTW.

Dark Eldar Special Rule: The Enslaver
Dark Eldar strike without warning, pity or mercy. Dark Eldar raiders are the epitome of swiftness, one might as well catch a flea with all five fingers as try to draw the Dark Eldar in combat on anything other than their own terms. When a Dark Eldar force attacks, their victim cannot retaliate the following turn. This power may not be used on the same enemy twice in a row, as this draws the raiders into a battle of attrition that their prey adjusts to all too quickly. The shocked enemy may not attack the Dark Eldar player, but may move/reinforce/attack other targets as normal.

It allows the Dark Eldar to hunt down a chosen enemy without fear of retaliation, but leaves them open to an attack from other force. This could encourage an alliance where one player could act as bait as the other waits nearby ready to strike...I also added the rule that it can't be used twice in a row so as to avoid "Chaina DE strikes". What do you think?

Manchu wrote:With these proposed rules, it will be a matter of seeing who goes "Farsight" first.

It's not a problem if there are only 2, maybe 3, Tau players. Anymore and that means a Tau side that will assureadely dominate the field.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Manchu: On Dakka, Eldar have no real allies.

And Nids are 'swarming' with them? Pun intended.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Manchu: On Dakka, Eldar have no real allies.

ff


@ Manchu- Maybe set the base dynamic where horde armies are attack(1) or attack (2) Targets (2) but have a high Max (20?) or (30?) and middle Re-enforcement of (2).
You could make a rule where any Horde army that reaches its max and remains there for a turn without suffering a hit may split their faction into two halves. I think that this would be good for 'Nids, Orks or maybe IG.

Make their numbers their strength, but require them:
1) to not move in order to reinforce(IG)
2)to attack in order to re-enforce(Orks)
3)to attack and move in order to re-enforce('Nids).

Doing this would make it to where the smaller armies are balanced with A (2) maybe (3)? and superior movement.


As to your Tau and Chaos proposals, they are good for the game as is but if the hordes get revised then they would need a boost.

What do you think of these ideas?

@EF: I think I am posting too fast for you!

The Tau "help each other" rules makes sense for another faction--namely, the Orks. Here's a proposed change for them:

Orks

A 1/2 T 1 M 1/A R 2 Start 10 Max 20
Waaaaagh!: Orks gather strength with momentum, fighting wherever they go, and become especially savage when gathered together. Ork factions may attack on the same turn as they move, but may only attack after moving. Ork factions may not reinforce on the same turn as attacking. When more than one Ork faction is present on the same World, Orks are treated as A 2 T 2.

Move(1) Reinforce(2)
Move(1) Attack(1)
Attack(1)
if more than one Ork faction is on the same World (moved to)
Move (1) Attack (1, 1)
Attack (1, 1)

@ff: I think the hordes (IG, Orks, and Nids) need the least tinkering. I think revised Eldar and Chaos are pretty good, too. I have been worred that SM are getting a bit of the shaft but, as John points out, their A2T1 is very dangerous--only the Nids can do it and they sacrifice their maximum reinforcement to do so . . . plus, they are pretty slow and cannot reinforce on the move to boot (i.e., prefer if the food comes to them). I don't like the Tau doing that, either, and will probably revise again to:

Tau Empire

A 2/1 T 2/*1 M 1/A R 1 Start 10 Max 15
For The Greater Good: Able to coordinate complex military actions with versatility, the Tau pose a steadily growing threat to any who oppose their Greater Good. All Tau faction start on the same World. Tau factions may attack on the same turn as moving (but may not reinforce on a turn in which they attack). When doing so, they are treated as A 1 T 1. If they attack without moving, they are treated as A 2 T 2. If a Tau faction moves without attacking to a World where another Tau faction is already present the moving faction may reinforce two rather than one.

Attack (1, 1)
Attack (1) Move (1)
Move (1) Attack (1)
Move (1) Reinforce (1)
Move (1)
Attack (1)
Move (1) Reinforce (2), if another Tau faction is present at the World moved to

As I see it, Eldar and SM should be the most dangerous in the early game. IG and Nids have the potential to be late game monsters. CSM, Tau (as written here), and Orks would be strongest in the middle turns--in that order (so Orks would be most dangerous as it got to the end of the middle turns). Finally, for tonight, I am not totally convinced that SM shouldn't be able to JSJ, strafe, or whatever you want to call it. The final nail is not yet in that coffin.

Early Game <---Eldar---Space Marines---Chaos Space Marines---Tau Empire---Orks---Imperial Guard---Tyranids---> Late Game

As time goes on, alliances with late gamers like Orks and IG (maybe even Tau) get more and more important to Eldar and Space Marines. Nids never really need a partner, with the possible exception of when everyone else agrees to starve them to death. Even then, they are a powerful road block to factions that cannot bypass them. Soooo . . . basically everyone except Eldar and SM.

Let me also say that we haven't come to the end of the discussion on having a Linear rather than Circular Board. The Linear Board makes movement much more interesting, I think, and could even let alliances mark out territories. It might allow some cool fortress building and, as John would agree, make the Eldar (and eventually the Dark Eldar) very powerful allies. I am also toying with idea of allowing Chaos to treat the Board as a ring and everyone else treat it as a line.

Makes sense, how about a rule where under no circumstances are Ork players allowed to post or reply to PMs. Due to them beings orks.

So Tau can only attack Twice if they remain stationary? Sounds fair enough.

What happens when there are two Tau factions and one enemy? Is the Tau firepower suddenly halved or do they have to attack one another?

Let me sleep on it and I'll be a better sounding board.

Later

The same goes for IG. They don't HAVE to use both attack options...unless someone has finally decided to go Farsight on them.

I'm going to vote for Dark Eldar becuase there seemed to be a fair amount (1-2? ) of people interested at the beginning of the test match.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Makes sense, how about a rule where under no circumstances are Ork players allowed to post or reply to PMs. Due to them beings orks.

This makes me a sad panda.

:(

Emperors Faithful wrote:You are assuming that Eldar will be ganged up on immediatley. This tactic is only playable towards the end, until then there are simply too many people to concentrate on a method that will render Eldar impotent.

With a max 10, Eldar can be ganged at any time.

I imagined that the Eldars strength would be their very appearence of Weakness, making them the perfect mediator to turn the other factions against each other. That's what Eldar do isn't it?

The only reason this hasn't worked here is becuase there were 4 players to start with, the most out of any other faction.

It's more than just "appearance"...

4 is the same as Imperials.

And certainly would have been impossible if not for the swift and unexpected alliance with the Orks.

What alliance? Orks have been hitting Eldars, too.

[quoteUnlikely, as there is little to suggest that Eldar are worthy of even 2 attacks, which puts them on equal footing with SM.

Eldar will not be getting Max 15. There is simply no justification for it. Their gimmick is being unpredictable/predicting and manipulating what others will do. John, why do you think revised Eldar are more vulnerable then SM (assuming you do think so)? If anything, Eldar are tougher thanks to their movement. They simply cannot hit as hard. My planned revision of SM has them being more predictable--will post tonight.

focusedfire wrote:What happens when there are two Tau factions and one enemy? Is the Tau firepower suddenly halved or do they have to attack one another?

Let me sleep on it and I'll be a better sounding board.

Later

I was actually thinking about this: the problem may arise that two Tau players are the only ones left: do they still benefit from this?

Also, the rules don't specify movement. Can they gain this attack bonus even after they move, or do they have to already be there?

I changed the attack bonus back to a reinforce bonus, so it is contingent upon movement (like most reinforcement). But the general question stands: "do 'help each other rules' only work when there is an alliance--and thus not work when the factions in question must fight each other (say, at the end of a game)?" The answer is no. A good example is an idea I had for Sisters. Sisters are A2 T2 normally but when they are below Start wounds OR on the same World as either IG or SM factions, they are A2 T1 (and, unlike Tau cannot choose which). In the situation of being allied with those Imp Forces, this represents Sisters fulfilling their support role. In the case of fighting against them, this represents Sisters stamping out heresy.

Help each other rules should be inherent to factions.

That is, any Eldar should be able to reinforce any other Eldar, and any Ork should reinforce any other Ork.

This strengthens faction play.

Manchu wrote:Eldar will not be getting Max 15. There is simply no justification for it.

Their gimmick is being unpredictable/predicting and manipulating what others will do.

John, why do you think revised Eldar are more vulnerable then SM (assuming you do think so)? If anything, Eldar are tougher thanks to their movement. They simply cannot hit as hard.

My planned revision of SM has them being more predictable--will post tonight.

That's debatable.

That's the player, not the army.

Max 10 is more vulnerable than 15. M2 is a enough when everybody else is M1. And that movement is only really useful when the number of players is much less than the number of locations.

OK

JohnHwangDD wrote:This strengthens faction play.

But is that actually good for the game? I think it'd be better not to reward faction play to, if not encourage, atleast allow mixing the alliances up. If you gain an advantage from staying with your own faction, there is no reason not to; there won't be any betrayals, or alliances based on placement.

Wait... are you bringing in Tau, Dark Eldar, or both?

I would hate to see DE blown off.

Proposed rule, just throwing it out there, from my d&d time:

Attacks of opportunity:
If a faction moves through an occupied sector, ONE of the armies inside of the sector may automatically deal one damage to the faction moving through if the defender posts it within one hour of the attackers turn. This only applies to moving through, not into.

Eldar would ignore it since they teleport

That would put the slight hinderance on the space marines, which look like the kings of game one.

It will also give Eldar a perk, which is what all the eldar players want.

Thoughts? Flaming?

Edit-Oops

Ork Waaagh!
The warboss instills fearlessness into his boyz, and calls a waagh. The boyz surge forward with renewed vigor!

Once per game, (maybe two-three times) Orks may increase their movement by one for the duration of the day (or two?).

Just a thought.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Wait... are you bringing in Tau, Dark Eldar, or both?

I would hate to see DE blown off.

Yes, that would be a horrible visual Make sure your browser filters are set to prevent such and you should be ok.

I think I have a solution for Eldar:

Masters of the Webway: Eldar factions begin the game off-Board and may be placed on any World of their choice on Turn 1. They may then attack once. This counts as their entire turn for Turn 1. Subsequently, Eldar may move then attack then move each turn. These moves are not bound by normal movement order: Eldar factions may move to any World.

Manchu wrote:I think I have a solution for Eldar:

I like it. Simple, yet effective.

DarkHound wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:This strengthens faction play.

But is that actually good for the game? I think it'd be better not to reward faction play to, if not encourage, atleast allow mixing the alliances up. If you gain an advantage from staying with your own faction, there is no reason not to; there won't be any betrayals, or alliances based on placement.

QFT.

Faction play leads to bad feelings.
I'd prefer player based alliances.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Proposed rule, just throwing it out there, from my d&d time:

Attacks of opportunity:
If a faction moves through an occupied sector, ONE of the armies inside of the sector may automatically deal one damage to the faction moving through if the defender posts it within one hour of the attackers turn. This only applies to moving through, not into.

Eldar would ignore it since they teleport

That would put the slight hinderance on the space marines, which look like the kings of game one.

It will also give Eldar a perk, which is what all the eldar players want.

Thoughts? Flaming?

The D&D rule isn't bad if everyone can move 2 or more.
Without the final settings of the new faction, let me assume its SM only that get hit.
Q1: May every local "defender" choose to do 1 wound?
Q2: is it balanced to use a 1 hour restriction in a game with participants of different timezones?
Q3: You mean the dead kings like Erasoketa?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ork Waaagh!
The warboss instills fearlessness into his boyz, and calls a waagh. The boyz surge forward with renewed vigor!

Once per game, (maybe two-three times) Orks may increase their movement by one for the duration of the day (or two?).

Just a thought.

Do they have to debate who's waaghboss? Maybe suffer a wound ( representing the 'discussion' ) to start the waagh?

I don't expect any of these to be implemented I just wanted to post my thoughts.

Personally I don't like these faction alliance benefits. I think it limits the alliance options and backstabbing. there will be no surprise that all the orks stick together for example because not doing so weakens them..

I also feel like everybody has too many wounds. And attacks are easy to brush off. Maybe chaos is just over powered but when I am attacked once I'm not even concerned because next turn it will be irrelevant. Similarly I attack IG and he can reinforce 2. Equaling exactly nothing. Maybe its all about strategy and alliances but there is a reason the glass cannons are dying first. Anyone that can reinforce 2 is very hard to make a dent in.

Overall it feels like armies of rabbits fighting one another. If it were me I would raise everyones' attack by 1. This would mean any attack would be a serious threat, the game would move faster players dying quicker and random attacks nothing to sniff at. At current speed this game will last a long time, Manchu wanted two turns a day but due to time differences and life it's not practical. But raising everyones attack would achieve the same thing.

Thoughts?

Shaman wrote:I don't expect any of these to be implemented I just wanted to post my thoughts.

Personally I don't like these faction alliance benefits. I think it limits the alliance options and backstabbing. there will be no surprise that all the orks stick together for example because not doing so weakens them..

I also feel like everybody has too many wounds. And attacks are easy to brush off. Maybe chaos is just over powered but when I am attacked once I'm not even concerned because next turn it will be irrelevant. Similarly I attack IG and he can reinforce 2. Equaling exactly nothing. Maybe its all about strategy and alliances but there is a reason the glass cannons are dying first. Anyone that can reinforce 2 is very hard to make a dent in.

Overall it feels like armies of rabbits fighting one another. If it were me I would raise everyones' attack by 1. This would mean any attack would be a serious threat, the game would move faster players dying quicker and random attacks nothing to sniff at. At current speed this game will last a long time, Manchu wanted two turns a day but due to time differences and life it's not practical. But raising everyones attack would achieve the same thing.

Thoughts?

You'll notice that Saim-Hann isn't doing very well. The reason is not that it's Eldar, but rather that everyone ganged up and hit hard. I think we will see a continuation of these sort of tactics. To make an attack effective, you only need to get enough people that more wounds are inflicted than the army can recover in one turn. In fact, I'd say that Eldar have the highest chance of escaping this kind of attack, because they can run away the farthest, with no restrictions. Of course, this would be magnified in a 6 world board.

Shaman wrote:Personally I don't like these faction alliance benefits. I think it limits the alliance options and backstabbing.

I also feel like everybody has too many wounds. And attacks are easy to brush off.

Overall it feels like armies of rabbits fighting one another. If it were me I would raise everyones' attack by 1.

OK, then generalize it so that any army can reinforce any other army by one.

No, the issue is that too may players are reinforcing instead of attacking. Why? Because attacks are strong in this game, so people are trying to hide and escape notice.

Rising attack to 3 average? Why not simply have everybody start at 5 and attack 3?
____

Nightwatch wrote:You'll notice that Saim-Hann isn't doing very well. The reason is not that it's Eldar, but rather that everyone ganged up and hit hard. I think we will see a continuation of these sort of tactics. To make an attack effective, you only need to get enough people that more wounds are inflicted than the army can recover in one turn. In fact, I'd say that Eldar have the highest chance of escaping this kind of attack, because they can run away the farthest, with no restrictions. Of course, this would be magnified in a 6 world board.

On this board, there isn't really anywhere for the Eldar going to run to. If it were 7 points on a line, I could see it. But not like things are right now.