Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Space Marines are A2. That's a huge difference.

3 SM vs 3 Eldar, who auto-wins?

Eldar.

The SM already lost 1, Eldar didn't lose anything in game One.

Maybe:

Eldar may choose their starting point but have to enter before turn 2 begins?
encourages alliances pre-game
Worlds: 15 players = 7, 20 players = 12 ? Line used up to 7, afterwards more complicated forms in use.
a line of more than 7 spaces keeps the M1 players busy with castling as more than 5 turns to get somewhere isn't acceptable. Would
recommend more connections on bigger maps.

@Manchu-Honestly, I like your orignal circular game board idea better.

IMO, should start a minimum number of 6 worlds and allow a world for every two races in games of 14 players or more.

Idea for Tau Faction
A 2 T 1 or 2 M 2* R 1 Start 10 Max 10
Move Shoot Move- The Tau may move(1) then take an action and move(1) but may not move (2) and take an action. All actions happen on the first move or no move for the Tau.
Examples:
a) move (1), attack (2)or(1,1), and move (1)
b) move (1), attack (2)or(1,1), re-enforce (1)
c) move (1), re-enforce (1), Move (1)
d) attack (2)or(1,1), re-enforce (1)
e) Attack (2)or(1,1)
f) Re-enforce (1)

Just a quick idea on Tau.

@1hadhq. If Eldar did start "in reserve" I would be skeptical about allowing them to begin post Turn 1. Being able to choose your start location is advantage enough for the faction that already has everything.

@ff: Why do you like the circular board better? Also, the JSJ thing for Tau is okay in the sense that it captures the feel of their battlesuits. But this is at an interstellar army level. I'm not so sure JSJ really suits that as well. But I am still open to arguments in its favor at this point. I also don't like them being A2. In the original design, A2 was a SM prerogative with Nids only able to do it at the expense of maxing their reinforcement.

Manchu wrote:@1hadhq. If Eldar did start "in reserve" I would be skeptical about allowing them to begin post Turn 1. Being able to choose your start location is advantage enough for the faction that already has everything.

Wasn't clear enough, sorry.

Intended to have them place before turn 1 runs out, they got 24 hours to join but if they miss, they're lost.

They could wait to prevent hits, but still must be there at turn 2 with max 6 wounds. Could get away against some attacks, but 3 A 2
players would be their doom.


Should the "new" faction be A1?

- Dark eldar = raiders. May reduce reinforcement of their victim of -1 when hitting. ( R 1 => R 0, R 2 => R 1 ). Fast and fragile.
Could start with A1 M3 R1 T1 5/10 wounds. Actions : M,M,M,R / M,A,M,M / M,M,A,M / M,M,M,A / A,M,M,M / A / R.

should be able to paralyze ( terror, slaves )

- Necron = undead hordes. Slow and purposeful. May not attack and re-enforce at the same turn. May re-enforce by 2 if unmoved as more of them are awakening. As tomb-dwellers thier starting point is their base and they may Re-enforce by 3 if unmoved in this location.
Could start with: A1 M1 R1/2(3) T1 10/15 wounds. Actions: M,A / M,R / A / R,R .

superior regeneration abilities, but tied to a base

- Demons. The warpspawn. Regenerate 2 wounds in 2 turns, as banned creatures they have to wait a turn until they gain the re-enforced wounds ( ie Re-enforce each 2nd turn but +2 )
but wounds from SoB in "holy fury" mode cannot be regained ever so their stats may weaken.
Partial free movement, but their drawn to battles so they begin at the location of the first fight in turn 1.
May only move to another battle ( ie attacks happening ) in the following turns.
Could start with: A1/2 M* R* T1/2 10/10 wounds. Actions: M*, A (1) / M* / A (1) / M* , A (1,1) / A (1,1)

rather conjured than placed, they get banned but return. May return often still bound to their chaotic masters

I voted Dark Eldar.

I think the tau seem quite better than most of the other races.

The eldar in reserves thing seems a bit fuzzy.

A line would be nice, or at least a 7-8 ring.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nope. If each starting location has, on average, 3 players, there's nowhere for an Eldar player to hide. Eldar will die within the first 3 turns simply because they're easy to kill, everybody else having at least twice the starting wounds.

Which encourages Eldar to initially find alliances. Maybe with...I dunno, Imperials or something?

Make the board twice the number of players, or start all of the non-Eldar players on end of the line, or start the Eldar off-board and let them choose when to come in, then maybe the Eldar have a chance to reinforce for a bit.

Yeah. Right. Do you realise that this will make Eldar losing virtually impossible? How are the Eldar supposed to be cornered by an enemy
if they have more than 25 something worlds to skip to? Especially if it's a lined board.

focusedfire wrote:@Manchu-Honestly, I like your orignal circular game board idea better.

IMO, should start a minimum number of 6 worlds and allow a world for every two races in games of 14 players or more.

I like this idea, however I am still in favour of a smaller fraction, perhaps a new world for every 3 races rounding up.

Idea for Tau Faction
*snip*

Tau never struck me as THAT vesatile.

In regards to what races we should accept next game, I think Dark Eldar were looked favourably upon last sign up. There was a fair amount of interest for them.

focusedfire wrote:@Manchu-Honestly, I like your orignal circular game board idea better.

IMO, should start a minimum number of 6 worlds and allow a world for every two races in games of 14 players or more.

Idea for Tau Faction
A 2 T 1 or 2 M 2* R 1 Start 10 Max 10
Move Shoot Move- The Tau may move(1) then take an action and move(1) but may not move (2) and take an action. All actions happen on the first move or no move for the Tau.
Examples:
a) move (1), attack (2)or(1,1), and move (1)
b) move (1), attack (2)or(1,1), re-enforce (1)
c) move (1), re-enforce (1), Move (1)
d) attack (2)or(1,1), re-enforce (1)
e) Attack (2)or(1,1)
f) Re-enforce (1)

Reinforce between moves is useless, it doesn't matter at all. It would be the same thing as moving 2 and reinforcing.


I also like the idea of a circular board. The reason is that a line will end in tears, as people get cornered quickly and people at the ends are isolated. The problem with a circular board is that when you only have 5 worlds, then move(*) is the same thing as move(2). Circular would be better, providing there are 6+ worlds.

Nightwatch wrote:


I also like the idea of a circular board. The reason is that a line will end in tears, as people get cornered quickly and people at the ends are isolated. The problem with a circular board is that when you only have 5 worlds, then move(*) is the same thing as move(2). Circular would be better, providing there are 6+ worlds.

Quoted due the overwhelming presence of Truth.

Nightwatch wrote:I also like the idea of a circular board. The reason is that a line will end in tears, as people get cornered quickly and people at the ends are isolated. The problem with a circular board is that when you only have 5 worlds, then move(*) is the same thing as move(2). Circular would be better, providing there are 6+ worlds.

Aye, quoted for truth.

My take on it: Clarify the Space Marines, of course. I don't like 6 or 7. I could live with 6, but 7 is bad. That leaves the Eldar too vulnerable. They'll have to flee for any form of combat for the first three or four days, especially the clusterfucks we get into. No, if you want to make Eldar more brittle, limit their ability to reinforce. Take away their ability to reinforce while attacking and they can't stay in any prolonged engagements, just like the fluff. Otherwise leave them exactly as they are now. This 'deepstriking' nonsense is overly-complicated.

Manchu wrote:@ff: Why do you like the circular board better? Also, the JSJ thing for Tau is okay in the sense that it captures the feel of their battlesuits. But this is at an interstellar army level. I'm not so sure JSJ really suits that as well. But I am still open to arguments in its favor at this point. I also don't like them being A2. In the original design, A2 was a SM prerogative with Nids only able to do it at the expense of maxing their reinforcement.

As to the circular board- When set at a minimum of 6 worlds +1 extra for every X armies beyond 12, it will create a movement based dynamic that encourages the political element of alliances. All in all it would just make the game more dynamic.


About the Tau, JSJ is how they fight in all arena's of battle according to what is described in their codex. The Tau eschew any form of attrition warfare because they realize that they don't have the numbers to pull it off against any of the races. They instead use hit and run style tactics, combined arms tactics, focal point attacks and manoeuvre warfare to disrupt/cripple their enemies abilty to wage war. Though the tactics may seem similar to Fabian tactics the onus is not on body counts but on removing key elements of their enemies command, logistics, and fire support capabilities. By their back story the entire army is supposed to move, shoot, and withdraw to a different location in a guerrilla-esque style of warfare. They are supposed to strike with overwhelming firepower and withdraw in a manner that leads the enemy deeper into their trap/killzone.

I think that I gave them the abilities that reflect their style by limiting their speed(May only attack an adjacent world), limting their numbers(May not attack, move, and re-enforce in the same turn and a re-enforce of only 1) and represented their firepower with A 2.

If they need trimming down to attack 1 then go ahead but I think that they will be to weak. Note- I am just making a case for the idea, please take it and balance as needed for your game. I have ideas but only you know what will fit your concept of the game.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:I think the tau seem quite better than most of the other races.

Not really, just different. They wouldn't have the numbers or regenerative abilities of the other "move 1 then attack" armies, but it is just an idea, Please suggest a countering idea of what you would consider fitting. It will help manchu get a better idea of what the players would be comfortable with.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I like this idea, however I am still in favour of a smaller fraction, perhaps a new world for every 3 races rounding up.

The every three races would work also, now that I think about instead of just brainstorming the 1 world for every the armies ove 12 would work quite nicely. Well done EF.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Tau never struck me as THAT vesatile.

Not as versatile as they appear, just lots of explanation to point out that they would only be able to take an action on a world that is only 1 move away.

Nightwatch wrote:
Reinforce between moves is useless, it doesn't matter at all. It would be the same thing as moving 2 and reinforcing.


I also like the idea of a circular board. The reason is that a line will end in tears, as people get cornered quickly and people at the ends are isolated. The problem with a circular board is that when you only have 5 worlds, then move(*) is the same thing as move(2). Circular would be better, providing there are 6+ worlds.

I only had the re-enforce between moves to hammer the point of the Tau only being able to act on neighboring worlds as opposed to moving 2 and then acting. That portion could be dropped to indicate that the Tau are only supplied by a few worlds.

What do you think?

Okay, I'm hearing that most people want a Circular Board. I'm down with that.

DarkHound wrote:This 'deepstriking' nonsense is overly-complicated.

I'm not sure what you're referring to--you mean the Eldar starting off the Board? I don't think it needs to be that complicated. I kind of like the idea, actually. I would play it like this:

Eldar

A 1 T 1 M 1*/A R 1 Start 10 Max 10
Through The Webway: The enigmatic Eldar slip in and out of their Webway portals, attacking where they are least expected. Eldar factions may move from one World to one World per turn, disregarding the normal movement order. Additionally, Eldar factions start off of the Board. They may place themselves on any World of their choice on Turn 1, which placement counts as their movement for that turn. They may attack on the same turn as moving, either before or after moving. In order to reinforce, however, Eldar must move and not attack.

Move (1*) Attack (1)
Attack (1) Move (1*)
Move (1*) Reinforce (1)
Move (1*)
Attack (1)

I also don't get what's wrong with my Chaos fix. They'd be something like:

Chaos Space Marines

A 1 T 1 M 1/A R 1 Start 10 Max 15
Legions of the Warp: The predations of Chaos Space Marine warbands are aided both by the denizens and the deceptions of the Immaterium. Chaos Space Marine factions may attack on the same turn as moving, either before or after moving. They may reinforce on a move preceding an attack but not on one following an attack. Like most other factions, they may also reinforce on a turn that they do not attack.

Move (1) Attack (1) Reinforce (1)
Attack (1) Move (1)
Move (1) Reinforce (1)
Move (1)
Attack (1)

The reinforcement is supposed to be with daemons, I guess. So the Ruinous Powers are more generous to aggressors.

If there were rules for Dark Eldar, they would have to be just as fluid and just as fragile as Eldar (if not more so). Perhaps Start 5, Max 7/8?

I like this crippling idea, but I don't think it will work, as some players may not realise that they've been attacked by a DE player at some point, if they're only going off the previous post, not to mention that there might be some frustration at having to miss out a whole day or worse due to chain attacks. What about an attack that cripples the opponent for their next move, such as halving their attack/move/reinforce rounding up? To make it clear that the unit is crippled, a emoticon could be put beside it that turn.

There has been a fair amount of talk about Board size, with a lot of great suggestions. I think it should be something like:

The Board will consist of a number of Worlds equal to one third the number of players rounded down with a minimum of six. The Board's move order will be circular such that, if there are six Worlds labeled Alpha through Zeta, the distance between Alpha and Beta or between Zeta and Alpha is one space of movement.

Sounds good to me. A linear board probably would have ended in tears.

The only thing I'm worried about is the impossibility for some factions to kill one another other off in the event the make it to the finals. Say Guard v Guard, or Eldar v ...anyone really.

A tie is decided by who has the most wounds remaining when the tie came into effect. If the tied factions had the same number of wounds when they became tied, then the tie stands.

So if the tied factions are tied...it's a tie?

Emperors Faithful wrote:So if the tied factions are tied...it's a tie?

Yes its fluffy it happened in the blood angels codex with the necrons lol.

This Strat Survivor is infinitely better than Codex McBatnipples. I'll assume that the sides either fight on forever or erect a fairground and dance in circles for many years to come.


Necrons

Start 10, Max 20
Move 1, Attack 2 (two poissible targets or focus on 1)
Move 1, Reinforce 2
Move 1, Attack 1, reinforce 1

How does that sound? Something that moves slowly, but is definitely hard to kill off.

Of the points under discussion:

1. I prefer a Linear board. It's easier to explain, and it makes enhanced Move more valuable. It also forces more strategy precisely the ends are harder to get to/from.

2. Based on the direction Eldar are going, I probably won't play them in future iterations of this game. Too weak, no toughness. Of the revised Eldar / CSM, the Eldar are completely unplayable but the CSM are possiby playable. If CSM get nerfed, I'd play Orks or Nids, whichever faction is larger.

3. 1had clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. As I succinctly demonstrated to Manchu via PM, 3 SM auto-win vs 3 Eldar starting at W5.

4. I expect (and expected from the start) Eldar not to win this game. The only question in my mind is whether the Eldar outlast the Imperals.

How about:

Tau Empire
A 2 T 2 M 1 R 1/2 Start 10 Max 20
For The Greater Good: Able to coordinate the most complex military actions with zealous efficiency, the Tau pose a steadily growing threat to any who oppose their Greater Good. All Tau factions begin play on the same World. Tau factions may reinforce on turns in which they attack but not on turns in which they move--unless they move to a World where another Tau faction is already present. In this case, they may reinforce by two rather than one.

Attack (1, 1) Reinforce (1)
Attack (1) Reinforce (1)
Attack (1, 1)
Attack (1)
Move (1)
Move (1 to a World where another Tau faction is present) Reinforce (2)

JohnHwangDD wrote:
1. I prefer a Linear board. It's easier to explain, and it makes enhanced Move more valuable. It also forces more strategy precisely the ends are harder to get to/from.

As it makes the possibility of ever getting close to Eldar utterly impossible. Also ensure that no one is too bothered about an alliance due to the fact that everyone is moving to either one end or the other.

2. Based on the direction Eldar are going, I probably won't play them in future iterations of this game. Too weak, no toughness. Of the revised Eldar / CSM, the Eldar are completely unplayable but the CSM are possiby playable. If CSM get nerfed, I'd play Orks or Nids, whichever faction is larger.

Eldar are unplayable? I'm more than certain that they are an easy kill in a 5 World map early on, but as the game continues they go unnocticed and very tricksy. Unless you'd have them at Str 20 and Attack 3.

3. 1had clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. As I succinctly demonstrated to Manchu via PM, 3 SM auto-win vs 3 Eldar starting at W5.

Really no need for personal attacks here. And SM don't last long at all in this game either (in fact they're likely to last shorter), they hit too hard and are too much of a threat to others. Hence the gang ups on them. Eldar aren't seen as such an obvious threat.

4. I expect (and expected from the start) Eldar not to win this game. The only question in my mind is whether the Eldar outlast the Imperals.

This is a bit of an obsession with you isn't it?

JohnHwangDD wrote:2. Based on the direction Eldar are going, I probably won't play them in future iterations of this game. Too weak, no toughness. Of the revised Eldar / CSM, the Eldar are completely unplayable but the CSM are possiby playable. If CSM get nerfed, I'd play Orks or Nids, whichever faction is larger.

Latest proposal has Eldar at Start 10 Max 10.

Having them with the same Start as SM doesn't make sense to me, but neither is having them at Start 5. I'd go for a Start 8 Max 10, with any DE introduced being weaker at Star 5 Max 10.

Manchu wrote: All Tau factions begin play on the same World.

This makes sense, a good strong start.

Tau factions may reinforce on turns in which they attack but not on turns in which they move--unless they move to a World where another Tau faction is already present. In this case, they may reinforce by two rather than one.

This isn't as great in my humble opinion. It makes the Tau far too dependent on each other, and then there's the problem at the end of whether this applies when the factions are attacking each other.

@EF: Starting together and the reinforcement rule hopefully gives high incentive to ally among Tau. Their special rule would of course apply at the end of the game, even if only Tau were active. The final turns really come down to betrayals. You want to keep your wounds up so as to win in the event of a first-level tie (where there are two left that cannot seem to kill one another, as described above). The Tau are extremely xenophobic--just not in the Imperial sense. In their own way they are the most racist faction in 40k. Although they tolerate biological diversity, they insist on having one homogenous culture--maybe even right down to the thoughts going through individual heads. (At least the Imperium can tolerate some cultural diversity among humans.) With these proposed rules, it will be a matter of seeing who goes "Farsight" first.

Plus, I don't think a faction with A2T2 that can reinforce on the attack is really dependent on anyone. The bonus reinforce is only on a move (no attack) turn and really just serves as an incentive to coordinate with other Tau players (if there are any). You don't have to be actually allied with those players to reap the bonus, however.

The problem I see with them is that if there is no other Tau player, why not just pick IG? IG have one more attack on one more target and can reinforce by 2 on a move while reinforcing by 1 on the attack. Ugh. Give me a minute.

Manchu wrote:How about:Tau Empire
A 2 T 2 M 1 R 1/2 Start 10 Max 20
For The Greater Good: Tau are extremely social creatures able to coordinate even complex military actions with zealous efficiency. As such, they pose a small but growing threat to any who oppose Tau'Va. All Tau factions begin play on the same World. Tau factions may reinforce on turns in which they attack but not on turns in which they move--unless they move to a World where another Tau faction is already present. In this case, they may reinforce by two rather than one.

Two problems right off.

1) Max 20-While I understand the growing empire concept that your advocating, it makes the Tau into Xenos Guard Light. It is a personal thing but I have fought that concept at every turn. The Tau live and die by their elites, Something the IG does not do. The Tau are also a lower model count army and I would like to see their tech and mobility expressed more than how fast they are reproducing.Make them max 10 or maybe 15.

They should have a max close to what sisters would have. Actually Tau and sisters could be templates for similar amies that use force multipliers but move and attack differently.

2)If they can only move (1) then let them attack. If nothing else, the Tau should be able to attack on the move.


As to your Gameboard rules, I think that they are spot on.

Also, I have no problems with stalemates. They are a very real part of war.


BTW, I like EF's Necrons. They might need a little tweak but I think that they would be playable as he posted them.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
1. I prefer a Linear board. It's easier to explain, and it makes enhanced Move more valuable. It also forces more strategy precisely the ends are harder to get to/from.

As it makes the possibility of ever getting close to Eldar utterly impossible.

Enemies don't ever need to close on Eldar - they can simply reinforce to a point beyond which Eldar can't hurt them, while having sufficient Attack potential that Eldar dare not attack, either.

2. Based on the direction Eldar are going, I probably won't play them in future iterations of this game. Too weak, no toughness. Of the revised Eldar / CSM, the Eldar are completely unplayable but the CSM are possiby playable. If CSM get nerfed, I'd play Orks or Nids, whichever faction is larger.

Eldar are unplayable?

I'm more than certain that they are an easy kill in a 5 World map early on, but as the game continues they go unnocticed and very tricksy.

The latest Eldar are A1 -or- R1, completely unplayable in a game with default A2 or R2.

With ff out, clearly, they haven't been unnoticed.

3. 1had clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. As I succinctly demonstrated to Manchu via PM, 3 SM auto-win vs 3 Eldar starting at W5.

Really no need for personal attacks here. And SM don't last long at all in this game either (in fact they're likely to last shorter), they hit too hard and are too much of a threat to others. Hence the gang ups on them.

Eldar aren't seen as such an obvious threat.

He's said something foolish without thinking, and I'm merely pointing that out. S2 M2 SM are dangerous, and do need to be removed by the M1 armies, because it simplifies their game planning.

Being A1, Eldar aren't much of a threat - indeed, if there weren't 4 Eldar players, they'd even worse off.

4. I expect (and expected from the start) Eldar not to win this game. The only question in my mind is whether the Eldar outlast the Imperals.

This is a bit of an obsession with you isn't it?

Not really. I did a quick army analysis at the start of the game and concluded that Eldar were designed as a weaker faction in the game. However, with 3 other Eldar, I thought that a 4th (matching the Imp total) might tip them into something other than an auto-loss. I was wrong, and at 3 Eldar remaining, with most other factions all above 10, I don't think things look good for the pointy ears.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Having them with the same Start as SM doesn't make sense to me, but neither is having them at Start 5. I'd go for a Start 8 Max 10, with any DE introduced being weaker at Star 5 Max 10.

Start 8 might be playable for Eldar, but they'd need to hit harder or to make up the difference. Or have pop up attacks or something.

For a Start 5 to be at all viable, rules-wise, the army needs to be amazing. Giant slayers. Otherwise, any 3 armies simply decide to pop them, and it's "good game".

Revised, taking ff's comments into account:

Tau Empire

A 2/1 T 2/*1 M 1/A R 1 Start 10 Max 15
For The Greater Good: Able to coordinate complex military actions with versatility, the Tau pose a steadily growing threat to any who oppose their Greater Good. Tau factions may attack on the same turn as moving (but may not reinforce on a turn in which they attack). When doing so, they are treated as A 1 T 1. If they attack without moving, they are treated as A 2 T 2. When more than one Tau faction is present on the same World, all Tau factions may act as if either A 2 or T 2 or A 2 T 1.

Attack (1, 1)
Attack (1) Move (1)
Move (1) Attack (1)
Move (1) Reinforce (1)
Move (1)
Attack (1)
if another Tau faction present at the same World: Attack (2)

These Tau are versatile but somewhat fragile, working at their peak when they work together. The dual mode mechanic is supposed to be like employing Mont'Ka or Kauyon.

@John: Again, latest Eldar proposal has them at Start 10 Max 10--same as Marines. Just like Marines, Eldar need to be organized and busy at the beginning of the game. Choosing where they come in will help that even more. I think you're underestimating how dangerous Eldar are (even currently!) early in the game--which is exactly why Saim Hann was hit by many others. You are right to point out that they get less dangerous over time, whereas IG and Nids can grow to titanic proportions. As such, IG and Nids should be the Eldar's "natural enemies" as it were--and, by the same analysis, SM should be their "natural allies." Or the closest thing to it, outside of one another.