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Contrary to popular belief, "Mary Sue" does not mean "chapter/faction/individual that I don't like."

If you are going to hate on something, at least know the proper terminology.

Ironsight wrote:Contrary to popular belief, "Mary Sue" does not mean "chapter/faction/individual that I don't like."

If you are going to hate on something, at least know the proper terminology.

-_______________________________________________________-

I challenge you to a duel *glove slap*

Ironsight wrote:Contrary to popular belief, "Mary Sue" does not mean "chapter/faction/individual that I don't like."

If you are going to hate on something, at least know the proper terminology.

It doesn't?

im2randomghgh wrote:He didn't actually treat the Primarchs that badly, barring Angron, they just felt neglected like attention-starved bitches, because the Emperor was trying to make the webway accessible to humans, which would further suck for chaos, because humans would never travel through the warp. It would be obsolete.

Hey, you want to know something he could of done that probably would have prevented the Heresy?

He could have told them what the feth he was doing, rather than demanding mindless obedience without justifying it.

SPACE WOLVES.


Most. Stupid. Idea. Ever.

Othere: "THE THOUSAND SONS ARE WITCHES AND PRACTICERS OF SORCERY!"

Magnus: "So are you!"

Othere: "I'm not a Psyker, I'm a Son of the Storm!"

Magnus: "...In other words a Psyker."

Othere: "SEE? WITCHCRAFT! HE USED FACETIOUSNESS!"


URGH.

Brother Coa wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Perhaps you forgot this dude?

No I didn't... the man is pure win against Chaos...
I know that many are saying that he is actually being tortured by Chaos Gods, but:

Spoiler:

There is sentence that say in the codex that: "Even if Draigo can't kill Chaos Gods and their minions, so Chaos Gods CAN"T get him out of the Warp." And the point that he is regularly summoned by mistake, kills every living cultist he see and then RETURN TO THE WARP tells me that people are mistaken - a lot.

You could actually quote it instead of using the usual misinterpreted internet hyperbole. Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.

There are a lot of factions in 40k that annoy me. I know the whole grimdark is the 40k thing, I'm fine with that. But it takes zero creativity to just have one race after the other try to out-evil, out-corrupt, out-arrogant, out-domgatically fail their own faction.

That's why I've hated Dark Eldar fluff from the get-go. Horribly torture people to survive... mkay sure. Sounds like unless your rich or powerful, life in Cammoragh would be short and painful... as a dark eldar. They sound doomed to me. Chaos is silly, "gee, which ones are the bad guys, the ones eating infants and adorning themselves with their skulls maybe??" Again I'm cool with evil and darkness themes, but try being a little more subtle? Who would be tempted by an existence of constant fear of being slaughtered by your own superiors (or ambitious subordinates!), living in the horrors of the warp, so you can just maybe become some meat puppet for a daemon? Are there any chicks? Money? Prestige? What are the promotion opportunites? Hmm, I'll pass. I think Chaos HR department needs to be revamped. Are they really recruiting / corrupting at a rate faster than they are being slain?

Some of my favorite models are Chaos and Dark Eldar (I'd LOVE to put together a "slaver" raiding force of mobile DE), but the fluff is ridiculous. I don't have a problem with evil factions, my problem is that even in "grimdark, suspend my disbelief to the max" mode they are completely untenable factions.

Then on the opposite side of the spectrum Tau feel pretty out of place with just how altruistic they strive to be, but they annoy me to a lesser extent. It would be easy for a good faction (try any half-intelligent faction that wants to SURVIVE) to look at the Imperium (the most viable defense against the evils of the galaxy) and laugh at their being crushed under the weight of their own bureaucracy and dogma and offer a "better way".

iproxtaco wrote:
You could actually quote it instead of using the usual misinterpreted internet hyperbole. Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.

I initially was fine with Space Marines but nowadays I sometimes wish people would just shut up about them, and that I could go to the local gaming store and not see Space Marine army after Space Marine after with a couple ork and deldar army... I'm pretty much convinced that locally I'm the only CSM and Cron player and my bro is one of a few Tau players

King Pariah wrote:I initially was fine with Space Marines but nowadays I sometimes wish people would just shut up about them, and that I could go to the local gaming store and not see Space Marine army after Space Marine after with a couple ork and deldar army... I'm pretty much convinced that locally I'm the only CSM and Cron player and my bro is one of a few Tau players

You realize that as a csm player you're still playing a space marine army, albeit an outdated one covered in spikes? My area actually is lucky enough to have a ton of Tau and Necron players.

Space Wolves seem a little grasping for fantasy bucks in my eyes. I won't hate on anyone for using them but I couldn't do it myself. Then again, I love the idea for the Grey Knights and am beginning a collection of them. Ultra secretive possibly zealots intent on cleansing the world, love it!

fleetofclaw wrote:There are a lot of factions in 40k that annoy me. I know the whole grimdark is the 40k thing, I'm fine with that. But it takes zero creativity to just have one race after the other try to out-evil, out-corrupt, out-arrogant, out-domgatically fail their own faction.

That's why I've hated Dark Eldar fluff from the get-go. Horribly torture people to survive... mkay sure. Sounds like unless your rich or powerful, life in Cammoragh would be short and painful... as a dark eldar. They sound doomed to me.

One of the things I love about the Dark Eldar codex is that it explains a lot about Comorraugh's workings.

There's actually quite a few unsuccessful Dark Eldar in the Dark City. Some of them form Hellion gangs and perform random acts of violence to quench their thirst. The not-as-resourceful ones become the Parched, Dark Eldar who wander the Sprawls desperately looking for people in pain. They'll often follow the raids of Hellions or Scourges, feeding on the pain inflicted and occasionally dragging off wounded combatants.

To allow society to keep functioning among the wealthier, but still not rich Dark Eldar, there's the gladiatorial Wytch fights and constant raids; there's a reason Dark Eldar kidnap more than they kill. Some of the lower class Dark Eldar make bargains or are invited into hunts, allowing the pain to spread even further through society.

The codex even explains how the Dark Eldar can keep a stable population when they delight in killing so much; Haemonculi will regrow Dark Eldar clients from pieces as small as a hand, and also use a fast cloning process to bolster their numbers.

Oakenshield wrote:

King Pariah wrote:I initially was fine with Space Marines but nowadays I sometimes wish people would just shut up about them, and that I could go to the local gaming store and not see Space Marine army after Space Marine after with a couple ork and deldar army... I'm pretty much convinced that locally I'm the only CSM and Cron player and my bro is one of a few Tau players

You realize that as a csm player you're still playing a space marine army, albeit an outdated one covered in spikes? My area actually is lucky enough to have a ton of Tau and Necron players.

Chaos Space Marines used to be a lot different from normal Marines. Veteran Skills, no Raptors, Marks of Chaos, lots of summoned Daemon and Mutation options, more melee oriented and generally heavier. Some of those differences are still around, albeit less pronounced, and others are just gone. The most recent Codex is pretty much "Spiky Marines" but they actually used to be a lot difference.

Ultramarines and Grey Knights. Both seem to have all the answers and none of the wisdom to question them.
GKs ´justification´for doing what they do is downright painfull. lets kill off all witnesses just to be sure noone can tell on us. Like any imperial citizen would even know what to make of their outfits anyway.... That, and people who have a hard on for the emperor in general.

Squigsquasher wrote:SPACE WOLVES.


Most. Stupid. Idea. Ever.

Othere: "THE THOUSAND SONS ARE WITCHES AND PRACTICERS OF SORCERY!"

Magnus: "So are you!"

Othere: "I'm not a Psyker, I'm a Son of the Storm!"

Magnus: "...In other words a Psyker."

Othere: "SEE? WITCHCRAFT! HE USED FACETIOUSNESS!"


URGH.

Well, to be fair he (Othere) MIGHT be right. The Shamans of Old Earth who pooled their power to create the Emperor were actually able to use non-warp magic, sorta like ork shamans who use Waaagh! power, only using an unidentified power source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oakenshield wrote:

King Pariah wrote:I initially was fine with Space Marines but nowadays I sometimes wish people would just shut up about them, and that I could go to the local gaming store and not see Space Marine army after Space Marine after with a couple ork and deldar army... I'm pretty much convinced that locally I'm the only CSM and Cron player and my bro is one of a few Tau players

You realize that as a csm player you're still playing a space marine army, albeit an outdated one covered in spikes? My area actually is lucky enough to have a ton of Tau and Necron players.

For the greater Monolith!

Harriticus wrote:Space Marines. Not because of anything they've done but because of how overexposed they are by GW.

Also Eldar. For a dying race that destroyed itself you'd think they'd show a little more humility.

THIS! I don't play marines simply because they are so overexposed. You say warhammer 40k and non-players instantly thing marines because that's all they know. To an extent, I also don't like the GKs because, whatever you may say, they are just marines with shinier armor and cooler toys. But the one that annoyes me the most is the Adaptus Gamesworkshoppe, always changing the rules that my beloved guard fight by. The nerve they have of telling my rough riders that they must carry a lance into battle!

im2randomghgh wrote:
Well, to be fair he (Othere) MIGHT be right. The Shamans of Old Earth who pooled their power to create the Emperor were actually able to use non-warp magic, sorta like ork shamans who use Waaagh! power, only using an unidentified power source.

Orks shamans still use the Warp, remember, Gork and Mork are Warp Gods just like Khorne or Nurgle. Likewise, the SW Runepriests were described as mentally swimming the same currents of the Warp as the Thousand Sons, etc.

They're psykers just like any others.
\

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Well, to be fair he (Othere) MIGHT be right. The Shamans of Old Earth who pooled their power to create the Emperor were actually able to use non-warp magic, sorta like ork shamans who use Waaagh! power, only using an unidentified power source.

Orks shamans still use the Warp, remember, Gork and Mork are Warp Gods just like Khorne or Nurgle. Likewise, the SW Runepriests were described as mentally swimming the same currents of the Warp as the Thousand Sons, etc.

They're psykers just like any others.
\

Psychic werewolf vikings in denial.

-Loki- wrote:
Psychic werewolf vikings in denial.

...With a massive hard on for killing their own kind and generally hating anything thats different from them.

Besides that their game-mechanics have the same reasoning as the dwarves: this guy is a grumpy old man with a massive beard. Hes really angry so he has to be amazing in combat! just look how old and angry he is! and he drinks all the time! that makes him even more awesome! lets give him wild abilities to reflect that

I don't see why people think the Craftworld Eldar should be humble.

They had infinite power, they got to the stage where they never had to work because of the state of perfection they got their society too. They could snuff out stars on a whim.
Not only did they manage to achieve all that, but they also had the skill to see through time and forsee the fall. After all that they managed to build space ships the size of planets and were able to evacuate all the members of their galaxy spanning race that had the strength to turn away from the decadance that they'd experienced for thousands of years. They still have to continually repress their every emotion and have done for 10,000 years to ensure their race lives on, whilst constantly in fear of being consumed by a god that constantly hunts their souls.

The Craftworlders have a right to be arrogant they didnt cause the fall, they were the only ones clever enough to notice something was wrong and walk away.

Gorechild wrote:I don't see why people think the Craftworld Eldar should be humble.

They had infinite power, they got to the stage where they never had to work because of the state of perfection they got their society too. They could snuff out stars on a whim.
Not only did they manage to achieve all that, but they also had the skill to see through time and forsee the fall. After all that they managed to build space ships the size of planets and were able to evacuate all the members of their galaxy spanning race that had the strength to turn away from the decadance that they'd experienced for thousands of years. They still have to continually repress their every emotion and have done for 10,000 years to ensure their race lives on, whilst constantly in fear of being consumed by a god that constantly hunts their souls.

The Craftworlders have a right to be arrogant they didnt cause the fall, they were the only ones clever enough to notice something was wrong and walk away.

by this logic the dark eldar are like jersey shore. its horrid, but they never noticed it themselves.

They may have noticed it, but very few of them would admit what they do is wrong, or that they do it for any reason other than because it's what they want to do. They see it as their right to be able to do whatever the hell they want, so they do. Never admiting that they are driven to commit the atrocities that they do by Slaanesh as she slowly but constantly consumes their souls.

They are the other extreme of the Eldar Empire, the craftworlders saw something was wrong and tried to escape. The Dark Eldar were so engrosed in the cults of pleasure that they'd retreat into the webway, where their perverse partying couldn't be detected, this alowed them to move even further into depravity. They just had the dumb luck to be somewhere where Slaanesh couldn't get them at the moment when she consumed the rest of their empire.

Im with you on the ad mech, but my other huge annoyance is the sisters of battle, fluff wise they never even listen to tactics they just charge forward purging the unclean.

HE USED FACETIOUSNESS!

It's not very effective.


I'm also not a fan of space-wolves. At least rules wise, they have a lot of things that are better just to be different (runic weapons & wolf claws are the main one, and being against psykers while having their own).

Gorechild wrote:I don't see why people think the Craftworld Eldar should be humble.

They had infinite power, they got to the stage where they never had to work because of the state of perfection they got their society too. They could snuff out stars on a whim.
Not only did they manage to achieve all that, but they also had the skill to see through time and forsee the fall. After all that they managed to build space ships the size of planets and were able to evacuate all the members of their galaxy spanning race that had the strength to turn away from the decadance that they'd experienced for thousands of years. They still have to continually repress their every emotion and have done for 10,000 years to ensure their race lives on, whilst constantly in fear of being consumed by a god that constantly hunts their souls.

The Craftworlders have a right to be arrogant they didnt cause the fall, they were the only ones clever enough to notice something was wrong and walk away.

The humans have also had supreme power in the galaxy, twice, and the orks are always strong...Necrons are also face-smash tastic, and the Enslavers are pretty beast.

Having been on top at one point or another isn't all that unique in 40k/

Overall, I think 40K fluff works well.

There's an element of "don't look at it too closely," between the mixed skill of the setting's contributors and architects and years of retcons, but I don't feel there are many broad-stroke or big-picture missteps.

The one place I feel GW really fethed up was with Necrons. The faction feels shoe-horned in and it treads on familiar ground. Tyranids were doing just fine as the completely alien universal threat of 40K; the setting didn't really need a second group doing that shtick. Even their command structure's too similar to the tyranids for my tastes -- mindless drones working for ancient gods isn't that different from mindless drones working for the hive mind. Personally, I'd have given them a different goal (or just left it a mystery altogether!) and handed them a few more units that weren't gunsteel gray.

I don't have a problem with the actual army or how it's supposed to play on the tabletop, I just don't like how it's placed in the universe.

Ever since I finished Space Marine (the game),

I hate the Tau. Seriously.

And it's got almost nothing to do with anything specific in their fluff. I hate them as an 'idea'.

They're pure Anime-inspired silliness. Mecha, AI Drones, and every model is armed with a plasma-based energy weapon, bah!

40k is a GrimDark setting and universe. The Tau were added into it as a 'breath of fresh air', new and dynamic and unwilling to allow the weight of the galaxy press down upon them. They are woefully out of place and they will never fail to turn my stomach.

Which ever one has been re-written by Matt Ward most recently.

Because people will not stop whinging about it.

Mewens wrote:The one place I feel GW really fethed up was with Necrons. The faction feels shoe-horned in and it treads on familiar ground. Tyranids were doing just fine as the completely alien universal threat of 40K; the setting didn't really need a second group doing that shtick. Even their command structure's too similar to the tyranids for my tastes -- mindless drones working for ancient gods isn't that different from mindless drones working for the hive mind. Personally, I'd have given them a different goal (or just left it a mystery altogether!) and handed them a few more units that weren't gunsteel gray.

I don't have a problem with the actual army or how it's supposed to play on the tabletop, I just don't like how it's placed in the universe.

Rumour has it this is being fixed in the new Necron codex. It's going to focus on Necron lords, which will have their own personality now, and their objectives, rather than the all encompassing 'kill all life' of the previous fluff. That will probably still be there, but they're emphasising individuality between the lords, so they should take a step back from doing what Tyranids do.

Mewens wrote:The one place I feel GW really fethed up was with Necrons. The faction feels shoe-horned in and it treads on familiar ground. Tyranids were doing just fine as the completely alien universal threat of 40K; the setting didn't really need a second group doing that shtick. Even their command structure's too similar to the tyranids for my tastes -- mindless drones working for ancient gods isn't that different from mindless drones working for the hive mind. Personally, I'd have given them a different goal (or just left it a mystery altogether!) and handed them a few more units that weren't gunsteel gray.

The similarities with the Tyranids are outweighed by the differences.

Particularly that the Necrons are not mindless (The upper echelons anyway), and never were. The problem was that the codex didn't emphasize that nearly enough.