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I voted fot all the SM flavour's and the Chaos daemon's. Not because I think they should be dropped, but as others have said, I'd like them combined into a single Space Marine and a single Forces of Chaos book.

TEMPERUS MAXIMUS wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Another thing I realized I don't like about the latest Tyranid codex, aside from the general weakness of most of the units and the absence of some of the best.

Still, Tau is my least favorite. I like nearly nothing about them anymore.

I really don't mind Tau. At least they're well balanced. GKs on the other hand... Then blood angels. Orks are in serious need of an upgrade. It's pretty easy to totally outmatch them, even with the seriously dated Eldar codex.

And if anyone complains about Eldar fire dragons, T3, 4+ sv and 16 pts each. They die like guardsmen, even from a falcon or WS.

You're horribly ignorant of game balance if you think Grey Knights are unbalanced on the level of The Blood Angels, and not even close to what can happen with the Space Wolves. Orks have a 4th ed codex that is balanced and fair. They don't need a massive up-grade like perhaps the Tau or Eldar, Necrons or Sisters of Battle, and Chaos Space Marines need one.

Eldar die like Guardsmen? Have you played or play Eldar with a competent general commanding them? Ha, they most certainly do not die by the literal bucket load in a 1500 point game. Imperial Guard are powerful, probably one of the most powerful armies out. They don't need a codex any time soon. Their standard troops may die easily enough, but they have more than enough abilities and other units to make up for that.

Eldar Fire Dragon.
T3 4+ 16pts.

Guardsman with Meltagun.
T3 5+ 15pts.

TEMPERUS MAXIMUS wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Another thing I realized I don't like about the latest Tyranid codex, aside from the general weakness of most of the units and the absence of some of the best.

Still, Tau is my least favorite. I like nearly nothing about them anymore.

I really don't mind Tau. At least they're well balanced. GKs on the other hand... Then blood angels. Orks are in serious need of an upgrade. It's pretty easy to totally outmatch them, even with the seriously dated Eldar codex.

And if anyone complains about Eldar fire dragons, T3, 4+ sv and 16 pts each. They die like guardsmen, even from a falcon or WS.

as an ork player i can say we are doing pretty well. I have alot of fun playing my army and can be very competative if i'm in the mood to play seriously which is very unorky.

I agree that the tau are jus tthe tau. they need a new codex pretty badly as do eldar and as much as it pains me to say a sm codex needs updating black templars need one too though with any luck matt ward won't make them as bad to play as wolves or blood angels.

I'd somewhat disagree on grey knights. they are definatly overpowered and should cost even more per model in points than they do or would do well for a nerf. but I still think wolves and blood angels are even worse... space wolves are so bad even though i can curb stop them with ork shooting due to massive amounts of fire power i just don't even enjoy playing them. I want my boys to be happy and in an assault but i can't because if i charge a 10 man tac squad with 30 orks and a nob there is a good chance they will lose 20ish models and then fall to a sweepign advance which is pretty rediculous .. and blood angels are even worse

Why do people hate blood Angels? They are the most badass Space Marines..

Why so much hate for BA!

Sure their fluff sucked because of Mr Ward but hey what quite a few of us realize is

A - Matt Ward didn't do the book single handedly. Their was a team involved so IT COULD BE that 1 fool said the wrong thing and now Matt takes the Bullet.

B - BA are awesome cause I have to use their codex to play Raven Guard - (In my defense the generic Codex doesn't feel Raven Guard enough to me. I need Assault Marines as troops . The fact that they have the red thirst special rule Isn't an issue to me. I just have to make some extra fluff)

KnightOfTheRaven wrote:Why so much hate for BA!

Sure their fluff sucked because of Mr Ward but hey what quite a few of us realize is

A - Matt Ward didn't do the book single handedly. Their was a team involved so IT COULD BE that 1 fool said the wrong thing and now Matt takes the Bullet.

B - BA are awesome cause I have to use their codex to play Raven Guard - (In my defense the generic Codex doesn't feel Raven Guard enough to me. I need Assault Marines as troops . The fact that they have the red thirst special rule Isn't an issue to me. I just have to make some extra fluff)

Quite a few of us realise that Blood Angels are awesome because you have to use their codex to play Raven Guard?

I think the majority of the hate stems from either the perception of them being over-powered in their new codex, and the sudden increase in Blood Angels players due to that, or the fact that almost every item of wargear they have has the word 'Blood' before it.

Personally, I can take 'em or leave 'em. Although, for the record, I was hating Blood Angels before it was cool. Back when they were in the Angels of Death book. Hating Blood Angels is so nineties.

What I was mean to say was I think BA are awesome for me cause....no wait i think that would be the same DAMN IT HTJ you gave me a headache!


Also If your saying that everything in the BA codex begins with blood then why isnt everything in the DA codex begin with Dark? But yea I will agree that BA are overpowered but like I said. Thats not the reason I play them for. In my opinion I like having to make my own fluff so i can get away with playing RG as BA.

KnightOfTheRaven wrote:What I was mean to say was I think BA are awesome for me cause....no wait i think that would be the same DAMN IT HTJ you gave me a headache!


Also If your saying that everything in the BA codex begins with blood then why isnt everything in the DA codex begin with Dark? But yea I will agree that BA are overpowered but like I said. Thats not the reason I play them for. In my opinion I like having to make my own fluff so i can get away with playing RG as BA.

Well, I live to give.

I believe it was Sun-Tzu who said: Haters gonna hate.

Er... I think.

Haters gonna hate
Givers gonna Give
AND MY GUN KILLS YOU!



sorry for off topic

I went for all the SM flavours except the BT. I couldn't do that to them, they were my first army.

iproxtaco wrote:Tau, god I hate the Tau. What's the point in them? Any other faction could crush them no effort, and yet the Tau players still stand up for them like they're an invincible mary-sue be-all and end-all faction that can defeat everyone.
Hypocrisy!

They obviously aren't a galactic power but XV8s FTW.

lol at the fact is mostly the very competive armies no-one likes.

winnertakesall wrote:lol at the fact is mostly the very competive armies no-one likes.

Notice that, while IG is very powerful, often considered amongst the most powerful with Wolves, it's decidedly smack dab in the middle here, while the 3 newest Marine books are by far clearly the least liked. The # 1,3 and 5 least liked armies are Mat Ward books..every book he's written for 40k

Not a good sign.

I voted for Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Both books are marine codices yet do not differ radically in terms of rules to justify a separate book. Their rule sets are incredibly easy to incorporate into the vanilla book (via add on rules, counts as etc). I didn’t vote for DA and BT as rule wise, both books are radically different from the vanilla book.

I also voted for Chaos Daemons as they were something that should never have been taken out of the CSM book. Chaos has always been close quarters MEQs that made up for their lower level of tech with daemons and removing the daemons from the CSM codex left a big void in the codex. If I were to offer an analogy, it would be like GW removing Deathwing from the DA codex and giving them a separate codex. Honestly, if GW wanted to allow a pure daemons force to be playable, they could easily have done this via additional rules in a CSM codex.

candy.man wrote:I voted for Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Both books are marine codices yet do not differ radically in terms of rules to justify a separate book. Their rule sets are incredibly easy to incorporate into the vanilla book (via add on rules, counts as etc). I didn’t vote for DA and BT as rule wise, both books are radically different from the vanilla book.

I also voted for Chaos Daemons as they were something that should never have been taken out of the CSM book. Chaos has always been close quarters MEQs that made up for their lower level of tech with daemons and removing the daemons from the CSM codex left a big void in the codex. If I were to offer an analogy, it would be like GW removing Deathwing from the DA codex and giving them a separate codex. Honestly, if GW wanted to allow a pure daemons force to be playable, they could easily have done this via additional rules in a CSM codex.

WHAT? Space Wolves are many, many times more distinct from the nilla marines than either DA OR BT. SW and BA are the only ones that differ drastically enough for their own codex.

Case and point: BT and DA are under the heading for regular space marines on the GW site, whereas SW and BA have their own thing.

@im2randomghgh
If that’s your opinion that’s cool but my opinion is based on codex rules, not fluff. BA and Space Wolves rulewise are essentially vanilla marines with chapter tactics swapped out and a few additional units/upgrades/rules added in. Model and fluff wise, they are distinct from vanilla marines. If the BA and SW codex deviated from the vanilla ruleset as much as BT/DA did than they would not have earned a vote from me. The similarity with the vanilla ruleset is one of the reasons vanilla players are able to easily migrate their forces to the BA/SW codices without issue.

candy.man wrote:I voted for Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Both books are marine codices yet do not differ radically in terms of rules to justify a separate book. Their rule sets are incredibly easy to incorporate into the vanilla book (via add on rules, counts as etc). I didn’t vote for DA and BT as rule wise, both books are radically different from the vanilla book.

How are Ba and SW's NOT RADICALLY DIFFERENT, but DA are??!!
Are you mad?
you can make a DA list using the Vanilla Dex (Captain on Bike ---> Ravenwing,) or SW (Loganwing), but you cant make a BA or SW army from the Vanilla dex.
Yes the BT are separate, but only to the same degree the BA an SW's are. Its the DA who need to be incorporated into the vanilla DEx.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

candy.man wrote:@im2randomghgh
If that’s your opinion that’s cool but my opinion is based on codex rules, not fluff. BA and Space Wolves rulewise are essentially vanilla marines with chapter tactics swapped out and a few additional units/upgrades/rules added in. Model and fluff wise, they are distinct from vanilla marines. If the BA and SW codex deviated from the vanilla ruleset as much as BT/DA did than they would not have earned a vote from me. The similarity with the vanilla ruleset is one of the reasons vanilla players are able to easily migrate their forces to the BA/SW codices without issue.

And what exactly is so different between the Vanilla dex and the DA one?
Trust me, there is far greater divergence between the BA/SW codex and the vanilla codex than there is between the DA and vanilla.

candy.man wrote:@im2randomghgh
If that’s your opinion that’s cool but my opinion is based on codex rules, not fluff. BA and Space Wolves rulewise are essentially vanilla marines with chapter tactics swapped out and a few additional units/upgrades/rules added in. Model and fluff wise, they are distinct from vanilla marines. If the BA and SW codex deviated from the vanilla ruleset as much as BT/DA did than they would not have earned a vote from me. The similarity with the vanilla ruleset is one of the reasons vanilla players are able to easily migrate their forces to the BA/SW codices without issue.

I was talking about codex rules.

Codex rules the biggest deviations are SW and BA,

Fluff wise the biggest deviations are SW and BT, as they are both many, many times the size of a chapter (space wolves are still technically a legion, as they created two successors then stopped), with BA close behind, and DA being by FAR the least different, in ALL respects (fluff, crunch and models)

im2randomghgh wrote:

candy.man wrote:@im2randomghgh
If that’s your opinion that’s cool but my opinion is based on codex rules, not fluff. BA and Space Wolves rulewise are essentially vanilla marines with chapter tactics swapped out and a few additional units/upgrades/rules added in. Model and fluff wise, they are distinct from vanilla marines. If the BA and SW codex deviated from the vanilla ruleset as much as BT/DA did than they would not have earned a vote from me. The similarity with the vanilla ruleset is one of the reasons vanilla players are able to easily migrate their forces to the BA/SW codices without issue.

I was talking about codex rules.

Codex rules the biggest deviations are SW and BA,

Fluff wise the biggest deviations are SW and BT, as they are both many, many times the size of a chapter (space wolves are still technically a legion, as they created two successors then stopped), with BA close behind, and DA being by FAR the least different, in ALL respects (fluff, crunch and models)

^ What he said. (im not being particularly literate tonight)

Is it strange that the Grey Knights have sort of grown on me? At first I was all "CheesE!" but now I sort of like how they're the 'unconquerable Space Marines!', and the fact that the wargear and units are so much different than Vanillarines is pretty neat to me, too. Sort of a look at fluff kinda almost matching crunch.

I voted Dark Angels. At the present, there is really no reason for them to have a codex for themselves. There is nothing their codex can do that any other marine codex can do better. I still like them thematically and aesthetically, though.

I go with space wolves. putting half-mad wolf-men in 40k is stupid. space wolves should be some sort of fantasy army.
also, i think tau should go. they're just a little overpowered

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:I go with space wolves. putting half-mad wolf-men in 40k is stupid. space wolves should be some sort of fantasy army.
also, i think tau should go. they're just a little overpowered

I think space wolves are perfect in the 40k setting. The whole 40k universe is over the top and nothing is more over the top then Space vikings that can change into werewolves.

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:I go with space wolves. putting half-mad wolf-men in 40k is stupid. space wolves should be some sort of fantasy army.
also, i think tau should go. they're just a little overpowered

HAHAHA

Tau are amongst the most drastically under-powered armies in wh40k, and they're usually not even considered competitive. They need to be made significantly more powerful. When an army designed for shooting is less shooty than armies not designed for it, you have a problem. All space marines, IG, DE, and even eldar can more often than not out-shoot them.

why do 79 people hate tau

im2randomghgh wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:I go with space wolves. putting half-mad wolf-men in 40k is stupid. space wolves should be some sort of fantasy army.
also, i think tau should go. they're just a little overpowered

HAHAHA

Tau are amongst the most drastically under-powered armies in wh40k, and they're usually not even considered competitive. They need to be made significantly more powerful. When an army designed for shooting is less shooty than armies not designed for it, you have a problem. All space marines, IG, DE, and even eldar can more often than not out-shoot them.

To be fair, while I agree with most of this, IG have always been able to put out more raw firepower than the Tau, the Tau were more mobile and tricksy. That said, many of these issues are not restricted to Tau alone, SW's can outshoot damn near anything, even many mech IG armies (at least in terms of long range Anti-Tank) thanks to MSU Razorback spam and their stupidly undercosted Long Fangs, despite supposedly being an aggressive CC army.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:I go with space wolves. putting half-mad wolf-men in 40k is stupid. space wolves should be some sort of fantasy army.
also, i think tau should go. they're just a little overpowered

HAHAHA

Tau are amongst the most drastically under-powered armies in wh40k, and they're usually not even considered competitive. They need to be made significantly more powerful. When an army designed for shooting is less shooty than armies not designed for it, you have a problem. All space marines, IG, DE, and even eldar can more often than not out-shoot them.

To be fair, while I agree with most of this, IG have always been able to put out more raw firepower than the Tau, the Tau were more mobile and tricksy. That said, many of these issues are not restricted to Tau alone, SW's can outshoot damn near anything, even many mech IG armies (at least in terms of long range Anti-Tank) thanks to MSU Razorback spam and their stupidly undercosted Long Fangs, despite supposedly being an aggressive CC army.

I am not saying that Tau had more firepower. At any point. I am saying in 4ed they were able to out-shoot IG. Having units that have two weapons, each roughly the equivalent of a devastator's weapon, that can dance around anything with their blingin' jet packs is definately helpful.

blood angels in the lead eh?lol thats why i have a " i love haters," sticker on my battlefoam bag.

im2randomghgh wrote:

I am not saying that Tau had more firepower. At any point. I am saying in 4ed they were able to out-shoot IG. Having units that have two weapons, each roughly the equivalent of a devastator's weapon, that can dance around anything with their blingin' jet packs is definately helpful.

To be fair, IG were often outshot in 4E not only by Tau but also SM's (lol 6 devestator squad armies... min/max'd las/plas squads, Iron Warriors Gunlines, etc), Eldar and even Orks at the tail end of 4E (max's lootas units, tons of shoota boyz...could definitely outshoot many 4E IG armies). IG in 3E/4E were...awful , I remember well those dark days, overcosted infantry, some of the most expensive heavy weapons in the game, terrible tanks and core tank rules, and little ability to maneuver, plus terrain rules that often meant nothing ever saw further than 24" away.